Brian Mueller 00:03 Welcome to “🔥Follow Me to the MROP!,” a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence. org slash app. Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Jeffrey Badstone. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making time and for being willing to share your story. Jeffrey Batstone 01:32 Yeah, good to be here. Thanks, Brian, for asking me. Brian Mueller 01:35 Jeffrey, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. Yeah, I'm here in Bremerton, Washington. Jeffrey Batstone 01:42 Live here with my wife and three kids, and I'm a psychotherapist. And involved in the community in a couple of different ways here at our local church and with a Illuman and spend my time playing with my dog the last half hour in the rain, stretching out by in a grove of trees behind our house here. Brian Mueller 02:09 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. When and where did you make your rites? Jeffrey Batstone 02:27 Yeah, so I made my rites in 2016 in Aravaipa Canyon. In that beautiful place. Who was your weaver? Belden Lane was my weaver. It was one of his sort of final weaves. He was just winding down as weaver. Do you recall about how many men were with you at the rites? I think there were b around sixty men. That was a that particular MROP. A whole maybe fifteen of us from the Pacific Northwest made a trek down there to do our rites. And there are some men involved in the initiator program as well. Brian Mueller 03:09 When you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth? Jeffrey Batstone 03:17 I'm turning this is I'm in my fiftieth year this year. And so one of the reasons I'm grateful for your invitation to share is I've been reflecting. It's been ten years since my MROP. And one of the images that has stayed with me is something that I didn't quite know I even received there at the during the rites. But when I look back on it in hindsight, I was like, oh, that's where that showed up. And it's a picture of a rock cracking open and water pouring out. And it's been really meaningful for me over the years that in the midst of this, I've got five days in the desert in ritual space. And it plumbed my depths and received this symbol, which I later put words to. It was like, oh, this is the archetypal symbol, this is universal symbol. This rock cracking open and water pouring out. So when I think back, On that. That's guided me over the years. And I'll say just a little bit more about that. It's been a symbol and something that I think back on. But it it's also changed over the years. So first in those first years, just after the MROP, it was this bare rock, jagged. And it wasn't till probably six years later where I began to notice So as I looked inward, like, oh, there's actually some moss around the rock, and there's the ground around it's no longer dry like the desert, but it's lush and there's things springing up. out of this out of the ground. And that was with me for a few years. And then even just more recently, the rock is fleshy. And so it's really this place that seems I locate right in my solar plexus and my body as I look inward. And that's been really meaningful for me in regards to grief and regards to my own open stance as a man. Brian Mueller 05:52 That's lovely. In general terms, more generally, more broadly, how was that weekend for you, the Whole Rites weekend? Jeffrey Batstone 06:01 Well, I - my friend asked me that after that MROP was coming around looking for testimonials. Ned Abenroth called me up and he said, how was that weekend for you? And I said - he's like, do you have a short testimonial? And I said, Well I feel like I got fucked by God, and it was good. He's like, oh, can I use that? I'm like, oh, no, no, no. I mean, somebody might hear me say that, but. I'm okay with it nowadays. Like it really did in general. I mean, it was, you know, there was it was powerful, it was meaningful. I feel like I got the manhandled sort turned upside down, like that Hafiz poem. God wants to practice his drop kick on us. And which is just what I needed. And there is still this gentleness in the midst of that as well. So it was it was good, it was hard, it was meaningful. It created this point, this passage of where, as I stepped through that, there was a remarkable shift that I wasn't aware of. And became more aware of through time and over time. Brian Mueller 07:31 And was there a particular ritual or some interaction? Or something that happened at the rites that was most impactful and memorable to you? Jeffrey Batstone 07:41 Yeah, what I come back to again and again is a day of grief. You and I were talking just before this interview about Enneagram and as a seven on the Enneagram in particular, I run from grief turn and so it's in my Both in my sobriety and in my return to grief, where I find wholeness as a seven. And so the day of grief for me was really important. I went there's a solo time that I went into and I moved through during that time. postures and positions that I'd watched my wife move through in childbirth. It was just a lot in me. That was needing to move a lot of emotion in me that was needing to move. And, you know, done some yoga and so like those positions of birthing and these yoga positions, and just moving this. these howls out of me, these wails, these tears flowing that I had not experienced in my adult life. moving in that way. And at the end of that hour or so, when we were all solo, we were coming back together, my dear friend Doug Shirley, who walked up to me and we went to embrace and I'd and he had heard me in during that hour and I just sort of fell into his arms. And then there's something that stirred up in me, which I which it's what stirred up in me is I just started pushing against him pretty hard, really hard. Pushed him back a few and He's a sizable guy. And then he started pushing against me and just meeting me there. And Ned later saw this, said it looked like two elk with their horns locked. And I needed to be met right there. And then I just was able to fall apart, just fall again. Just and weep and be and let myself go into the arms of a brother, a dear brother. And so that again, that moment on in the grief day, and that's when I received that picture. I was it still I remember sitting down in council after that saying, like, I feel like I've given birth in one way and I still feel pregnant. Like still full and yet something's been moved, something's open, something's on the move. Yeah, that grief ritual. The other the other piece of the grief ritual is Sitting in front of this big, big drum. And man, I just screamed my head off in front of that drum like a madman. And I mean, there's madness in me that needed to be put to voice and needed to move out. rather than pretending that I've got it all together, just letting that shit fly. So yeah, those moments And I could talk about other moments as well. The time in nature was really significant for me. Brian Mueller 11:34 It's really powerful. Thank you. And let me take you back a little bit now before you actually showed up at the rites, maybe in the months or even weeks leading up to it. What were the circumstances in your life that led you to the rites? And were what was going on for you as you headed into that experience? Jeffrey Batstone 11:51 Yeah. Well, I was a dad of three young kids. I was husband of some sixteen years and I was a few years into my career as a therapist and Earlier that year, I did my writes in May. And in January, someone had invited me to a Illuman weekend. And it was I was like, oh, at least it was stirring something in me. I was I was impressed with the depth of which we were talking and the connections that were being made with other men and what was stirring up in me. And as someone who had done some work in therapy and I was a therapist myself, I was like, well, this this stuff's this got something going on here. And that was probably about it. I was like, oh, I don't think I was in touch with a deep, deep need within me. I was just very curious, knowing I could I'd want I wanted something more for my journey. my inward journey, my journey as a man, my own growth. And that weekend seemed to stir something. And so a friend invited me. My friend Paul Steinke invited me and said, Hey, yeah, I think you I went to this thing And I think you'd like it. And I'm like, all right. And then and I knew a couple of other friends were going, so Got on a plane and came on down to New Mexico. Brian Mueller 13:55 So when you made the decision and you headed to the rites, was there something you were hoping to get from that experience? Jeffrey Batstone 14:02 I think just more I got a lot more than I anticipated. Yeah. There is. I was hoping for something that would help me on my growth, help me as a husband, help me as a father, help me as a man, and feel Probably more confident, feel more established. I was looking for Seeking deeper relationship with mystery, with God. And Yeah. And I would say I got all those things and more. Brian Mueller 14:46 Were you aware of anything you were fearing about the rites experience or any fear that you were carrying with you to those rites? Jeffrey Batstone 14:54 Well, as a seven, I don't pay attention to fear. That's an old voice talking there. That that would be um in my unhealth, I wouldn't pay attention to fear. And I think there was plenty of unhealth in me in in regards to unwholeness, right? I just wasn't paying attention. or trying to push away fear rather than enter into fear and allow myself to listen to what I was afraid of. Um yeah, I was afraid, but I think I was afraid all the time. And um, and so I went down there. Oh, hey, this'll be great. I'll figure find out what comes my way. not aware of any particular fears in in general, but certainly plenty of rate. Just not conscious of Right. Brian Mueller 15:53 So you the at the end of the rites, immediately following the rites, you know, you're on a shuttle heading back towards the airport and I want to know how you felt the right as you were leaving, you know, and what was what were the immediate feelings like right afterwards? Yeah. Jeffrey Batstone 16:09 Yeah. I mean, I was probably in a bit of a pretty thin space for a bit of a daze kind of like, man. I know that was that was something. Uh I remember singing one of the songs just like over and over and over and over again in the car. Something like it is good to be together with our brothers. That's not it. But it gave me a little more time to find him. And I just guessed it is good to be together with our brothers and on and on and on until my friend Doug in the car was like, Oh, okay. Okay. And I called him up and left him a voicemail the next day singing that song on his voicemail. Yeah, I mean, I was aware that something significant had happened, really meaningful, and I was hungry for more. Brian Mueller 17:12 Yeah, I appreciate that. So you felt some immediate impact. You knew something transformational would happen. How since that time has your life changed practically, relationally, spiritually? Jeffrey Batstone 17:23 Yeah, that's a big question. Yeah. You know, the picture that I offered earlier of that rock that rock with dry ground. Um that's about as probably a good as an answer as I can give that that transformation from this hard, hardened, sharp edged, dry ground to this fleshy, soft Opening and fertile ground. That's what it feels like within me. And I know that and just in my marriage and in my parenting and in my work in the world, I'm experienced that way more, um, more tenderly, more open. probably more patient and waiting for things to grow rather than rather than a hard edge and trying to push things. Yeah, I think there's mentioned as well and not being aware of not acknowledging fear going into that weekend and just my journey with fear over the last ten years and realizing how I've pushed that feeling away or how pushed grief away. And just an ongoing practice of welcoming those more difficult emotions that Create this expansiveness and immensity as I welcome them in. And there's more wholeness there within me as I'm willing to acknowledge those more difficult aspects of being a man that aren't in our culture that are not invited or encouraged, particularly in a patriarchal culture. And even seeing myself within that culture and just how much that culture has impacted me as a man, the places where Buddhist scales have fallen off my eyes. Just realize, oh my goodness. I mean, I'm so impacted by these messages from the manosphere, these messages from patriarchy, these messages about how we as men need to be How I, as a man, need to be strong and tough and push it away and just keep on going. So realizing that over a span of time, over the span of the last 10 years, and beginning to live into A lot more connection with allowing myself and allowing others to see me there relationally, allowing others to see me in those places of fear or sadness, being unsure, and really experiencing more and more that some deep communion there, which I'm grateful for. It's certainly changed my understanding of who this life force is, who this God is. Which is really important to me in my life. And I would probably have said I 10 years ago that'd be interested and want to understand more, but I had a really good understanding. And I'd probably say, I don't know what the hell I'm, you know. I don't know. I want to know more. I want to know more. I want to know more. About this wild God that meets us in the trees and in the birdsong and in the rain and in the wind. And then the eyes of another man, the eyes of my beloved. Yeah. And I'm just kind of well open to hunger there in a way that's In my deep need, am a way that I was not ten years ago. So Brian Mueller 21:55 Not thinking to get back again prior to attending the rites. Who did you tell it about your decision to go to the rites and what was their reaction? Jeffrey Batstone 22:03 Um I mean talked to my wife about it and she was supportive of it. I think because there was a small enclave. of men going that's like, oh, you're going, I'm going. I didn't feel like I need needed to tell too many people. When I came when I came back, I told a number of my good friends And I mean, I can think of a number of them off the top of my head right now that I do remember. I was down in Arizona. and came out of the rites and went and stayed with my friend Joshua Longbreak. They are in Phoenix, and I was, and we had slept outside all week at the MROP. And I was like, not ready to be inside. I was like, don't, don't, don't, don't put me under a roof. I remember he just reminded me recently, like, you slept out on the porch. And they had like a covered porch with a couch. And I was like, That's for me out there. I gotta be outside. And I remember telling him, like, yeah, I mean, I was out there in nature and, like, I hugged a cactus. He's like, you hugged it. What? I'm like. And I told him what I told him about it. And he's one of the people that was like. What happened out there to you and what happens out there? And has since gone and has been involved in Illumina and been a great place for us to connect. So, other people that I told as well, other dear friends. Yeah, I've since been interested. Brian Mueller 23:48 You know, it sometimes some men, in my experience, you know, they leave the rites and they immediately feel the impact and recognize the transformational nature of this experience. And others, it's a slow burn. You know, it's been, like you're saying, it's now about 10 years since you've participated in the rites. What's your experience? Are you still drawing new experiences out, drawing forth new lessons, new insights, new wisdom from that experience? Or has it fully landed for you yet? Jeffrey Batstone 24:18 Yeah. It continues to land. Like that symbol and that picture within. Like, I don't know if that'll change anymore. What might change within that picture? I think it continues to land. I came back from the rites and I was engaged in doctoral work there and I changed my dissertation. I wasn't too far into my dissertation, but I changed it towards grief and self-compassion and The need for that. And so that sent me on a trajectory towards grief. And that continues to sort of unfold as I'm doing work clinically there and in the community. And these truths that I gathered through that passage. I yeah, they continue to guide me. They continue to be pieces that I come back to on a daily, regular basis. That are teaching me, teaching me, teaching me. So it's an ongoing teaching. Yeah, I am not in control is one of them. Some of those five-hard truths that Richard Rohr has written about. Like I was just writing about that this past week and uh yeah They continue to land in me and teach me. Brian Mueller 25:54 Now, since making your rites, and of course, the decade of experience you've had afterwards. How is your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and the male purpose shifted over this time? Jeffrey Batstone 26:05 Yeah, masculinity. I think that word I probably would have had a more my understanding about masculinity would have been informed more through of a white, privileged, Euro-American, westernized idea of masculinity. while trying to rebuff that right through good behavior and some good teaching and some good, you know, some health. But I think the mystery of us and the masculine even and divinity within that, that's certainly like those aspects have expanded from a You know, probably from this sole individual as a masculine standing alone and needing to be virile and rock hard all the time. to something that's much more of a swirl and an encompassing of and an inclusion of the feminine. That you know, that that dance of both penetrative and withdrawing, both hard and flaccid, of Like that there's both of those energies within masculinity, rather than just a binary of one or the other. That's changed. What was it? Masculinity or the other two? Initiation and sort of the male purpose in life. Yeah, I think initiation, that that is something that can it can happen happens again and again throughout different stages of life. And there can be I'd say my rites of passage, those – that initiation in twenty sixteen for me was significant. And I think there have been other areas of initiation along the way. Even since then, but I see it as a moment that marks an individual and gives them an opportunity one way or another, maybe doesn't even give the opportunity. It's like there is now a shift Through the initiation, a shift occurs, and there's choice in sort of how you live with that shift. And so that's probably that's how I understand initiation and there's this moment where a shift occurs, something significant occurs. And you have choice after that to live in many different ways, but maybe through health or unhealth is my two avenues. And so the male purpose. I know I do appreciate how the health of even as we come out of No kings this past weekend. You know, I appreciate the archetype of the king. Just as I do for the woman, the queen, of like, man, there is a sense of order and blessing that the king orients from. And there's a steady presence there, a time to lean back and a time to move in. And that ordering and blessing I think that's a good picture of male purpose that we could talk I could talk on and on and on about that. But that's a for me, that captures health and purpose to order and bless as the lover and the magician and the warrior also come in underneath the king. Brian Mueller 30:55 Thank you. I would like to know what kind of counsel or advice that you would give to a man who's trying to discern whether or not to participate in men's rites of passage this year. Jeffrey Batstone 31:06 Well, if I was speaking from the trickster, I'd say don't go. Just don't go. No, forget about it. And if you can forget about it, maybe don't go. But if you can't forget about it and it's something that's gnawing at you, and if there's a hunger there and even just a curiosity of oh, I wonder what goes there, what goes on there, if you've heard something through Another man that intrigues you, or if you've seen a change in someone close to you after they've gone through the MROP, then there is something for you there. There's something for you there. If you have that inkling, that curiosity, or a deep hunger, I'd encourage you to follow it. Brian Mueller 32:01 Great. I do have to ask you, you're wearing a hat with the symbol from the Elder Rites of Passage on it. What's your involvement with the Elder Rites of Passage? Jeffrey Batstone 32:11 Yeah. So I've been helping out with the elder rites over the years and working as the muscle to help out with, and then offering what I got, and then working with Jonathan Miller and Ritual. And with Ned Abenroth there in ritual, and then over the years have taken on that ritual lead role. And so Yeah, the last couple of years been the ritual lead for the EROP, and so grateful for that work that we get to Tend to and care for that container for the elders who Need a container. And that we as younger men, I include myself in that as a 50-year almost 50-year-old, that man, we need our elders doing their work. That they in seeing them do their work as they move into this eldering and elderhood, it calls out something in me. It calls out something in young men, and even younger men. We have connections with the elders in our community who are connecting to really young men. Calling them on the phone and being on the phone with them for an hour. Talking to them, and it doesn't just give to the young men. We're talking like 20-some guys, but it also gives to the elders. I guess it's really good it feeds them. So it's just it's both ways in a lifespan of a man that he that we would be met in these younger ages, in these middle ages, in these older ages, and all of us connecting with one another and learning from one another. We need one another there. place of yeah, more wholeness that Illuman is offering and I'm just so grateful for. Brian Mueller 34:27 Jeffrey, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And I do know that you were on an earlier podcast from Illuman called “The Cave in the Fire,” sharing about the grief and the rituals that you built around your mother's passing. I really want to recommend that to men if they want to seek that out. I think it was a wonderful listen, and thank you for sharing here and there. You know, very courageous, vulnerable. Really appreciate it. So, I love you, brother. Jeffrey Batstone 34:52 Thank you. Yeah, Brian, thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, invite men to happy to talk to men and reach if they want to reach out to me. I've got a website, waterways therapy. com. I run a group for men, compassionate men, that want to deepen in their own it's a five-week program. I want to Look at patriarchy, but look at really deepening into compassion. So happy to talk to men about going to the rites and grief. Brian Mueller 35:27 Thank you. For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul, and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr. and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work. Preserving and Adapting the Rites for Men All Over the World. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth. the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth. There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth. And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot org slash mrop or Illuman dot org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present.