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<v Brian Mueller>00:03</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>in Illinois in twenty fourteen.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>story.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>own presence.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>stay grounded in the now.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence,</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence. org slash app.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>to the men who have walked the path.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>My guest today is Gary Maher. Brother, I'm really glad you're here.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>01:31</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Oh, no. Thank you, Brian. Thank you for asking me.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>01:33</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Gary, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Oh, Lordy.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>01:39</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I'm from Planet Earth, but my home is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I am a proud Badger. I have lived most of my life here.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Even though I spent time in New York City and Chicago.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>professionally and school-wise, but I've and spent most of my life in in the</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Madison and Milwaukee areas of Wisconsin.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I Have been lucky enough that for the past many years I'm retired.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I'm retired. I spent wandering.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>After college, I was a I worked for a textbook publisher.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I thought I was going to be a rare book dealer, and I went</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>to school for that and worked in the trade for five years.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I realized there's no way to support a family.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I found a company that was very nurturing and foresighted and it was in</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>the printing industry, which I knew nothing about, but they said, well, we'll take</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>you on and we'll train you. 26 years later, I retired.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>It was a good ride. It was a very good ride.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>02:42</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>The MROP is a unique experience.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>something they can't quite name.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>beginning. When and where did you make your rites?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>02:58</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>When and where? Okay, well, now I'm really aging myself or dating myself.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>It was 2008. So that's coming on 18 years ago. It was in Illinois.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Was watching the Center for Action Contemplation's calendar and saw that there was going</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>to be what was called the men's rites of passage in Illinois at a</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>place called Pilgrim Park.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I had been stalking my wife and I had been stalking Richard Rohr</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>for many years, and I was aware of his wild man.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Work that he had been doing, and also that he had been going and</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>created this thing called the men's rites of passage.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I thought, well, you know, I think I'm ready.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I was 55 at the time.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Hitting that point where you become a little more reflective, or the past is</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>speeding away from you, and the future looks kind of dark or hazy.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I thought, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I went to Pilgrim Park, signed up, and the weaver was Richard Rohr,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>and the ritual elder was Steven Pika.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Who was the director at the CAC at the time? And I distinctly remember.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>This may be your next question, Brian.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I don't want to jump all over this, but I distinctly remember driving</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>to it. It felt like I was almost on a dream.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>crossing the flat plains of Illinois and then getting into the river valleys of</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>north central Illinois where Pilgrim Park is and descending from these cornfields down into</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>this valley of Illinois.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>A cradle or a womb or a grave, whatever you want to call it,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>but down to Pilgrim Park. And there was a man standing there welcoming me.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>It was Bill McElroy. I went and parked my car.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>There was another man named Bob Colreesi, welcoming people in and giving everyone a</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>hug. Both of those guys to this day are two of my closest friends.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So it was a good beginning.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>04:59</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>A very good beginning.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>In general terms, how would you describe that weekend for yourself?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>05:07</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>It was a blur. That's about as general as I could get.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>It was definitely a blur. I had read a couple of the books.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I don't know if Adam's Return was put out at that time.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But I had read from Wild Man to Wise Man and some of Richard's</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>early books, Why Be Catholic? and so on.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I had a general idea of the path that I was hoping the</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Wrights would go on.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I thought, okay, I'm going to bring some books and read them when I'm</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>in nature Until I realize, no, books are locked up.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>This is not about going somewhere else. This is about going inward.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So, yeah, I think I'm straying from your question here, but how would I</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>describe that week? It was. It went by very fast and very slowly.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>When you're in liminal time, traditional time takes on a whole different dimension.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I felt like I was suspended.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I think it was a look back, sort of suspended between here and there.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>06:07</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, without sharing anything you consider confidential, tell us about some of the elements</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>of the rites that stood out for you.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>06:13</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Well, they were I think the rites in in particular were had a certain</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>amount of shock value to me, which is probably what I exactly what I</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>needed. To take me out of my thinking head, my thinking frame.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>They were visceral.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I kept trying to retreat into an intellectual Perceptive mode, and the rites would</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>not allow me to do that, which is exactly what they're meant to be.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So, my I guess reaction to the rites were that was sort of yeah,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>just felt like I was floating or suspended.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>06:56</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Was there one particular event or ritual or interaction even that you had that</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>really stands out to you in reflection?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>07:03</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Well, there are many.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>The story I tell over and over again that really doesn't reveal what the</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>rites are about is the first day after arriving, after spending a night in</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>the cabin.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I was at breakfast and there was a seat open next to me, and</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Richard Rohr came over and sat down. And he said, Hi, I'm Richard.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I am Gary. And so on. And so how did you sleep last night?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I said, being sort of a wise acre, I thought, okay, well, I</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>said, I slept about as well as you could expect, considering I was on</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>a one-inch mattress, it was on top of a plywood board.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Surrounded by seven men who were snoring.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And he leaned in and he said, That's exactly the point.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I thought, Oh, damn. I flunked the test.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But what he's telling me is that this is limited space.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>This is not meant to be easy.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>This is not meant to be a retreat.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>This is meant to be a journey. So that still sticks out with me.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I tell that story many to anyone who will stop and listen.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But there are many, many other Images from those five days that stick with</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>me, but I think that that was a good opener.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>08:12</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Well, you mentioned earlier that You and your wife were knew about Richard for</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>a while and were familiarizing yourself with his work and following the CAC, and</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>you learned about the Men’s Rites of Passage.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But can you talk a little bit about the circumstances in your life?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>What was going on at that time that kind of led to your participation</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>or just happened to be coincidental with your participation?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>08:33</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Sure, sure. No, it's as I said, I was fifty-five.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And at that time, the CAC, which was running the rites, kind of said,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>if you're 55 or older, maybe this maybe you're too old.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I thought, oh, man, have I missed this?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And unfortunately, that's been re-revised and re rethought through.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But I was at that point, my kids were in college.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>The mortgage was getting paid off.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I was living comfortably, but I knew I hungered for a deeper dive.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I hungered for a deeper dive. I like to.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>kind of equate our journey and did especially the rites and the work that</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Illuman does is jumping into the deep end of the pool where you have</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>nothing underneath you. I also like it.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Maybe using the image of a pearl diver.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You go down into the unknown, you find these clams, and you look for</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>the pearl.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You look for that great connection, that great connection in the deep end.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I think that's what I was searching for.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I was searching for something greater, something that would make me that would help</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>my journey. I understood that I was on a journey.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I understood that if I did not take a few steps, My journey might</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>take me in a different direction.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So that was pretty much my state of mind at the time.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I was ready. I was definitely ready.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I was open, but what I got Who knows? It still reverberates.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>10:08</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I hear you saying that you were maybe hoping for some personal and spiritual</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>growth at the Rites. Was there anything that you feared in attending the Rites?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>10:17</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Well, You go into something like this and my makeup on the Enneagram.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I'm a five. I'm an oldest child of Four boys.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You know, vulnerability is not something we like to do or show very well.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I was not comfortable or prepared necessarily for the amount of vulnerability that</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>was required. During these rites. So, yeah, that was a big thing.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I'm not certain if I'm answering your question or going in a different direction</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>here, Brian. That's kind of my mind.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>As I look back on myself 18 years ago, I think that was a</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>big part of it.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>11:01</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now, as you got in your, so the rites ended, it's a big event.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>It lasts parts of five days.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But you there does come there is a moment when you're able to pack</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>up and drive away. You're heading back to Milwaukee.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>How did you feel immediately after the rites?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>11:17</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I felt very calm. I felt very calm.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I was grateful for my three and a half hour drive back because it</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>just felt like, okay, I need this time.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Again, I feel like I had not come back down to Earth.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I almost felt like I was floating.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I knew it was going to take me. I didn't know what hit me.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I don't, you know, at that time, I did not know what hit me.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I still don't. You know, it's the rites provide doorways into mystery.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And then there was certainly a lot of that.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I returned to work the next day, which might have been a mistake.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But I felt like I was skipping upstairs.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And everyone I saw was saying, Oh, it's a good day, good day for</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>great things.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And they start scratching their heads, like, okay, give me some of that drug</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>urine. But it was a high.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>There was definitely a high that, like all highs, does not last.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You know, there comes a point where, okay, you know, gravity takes over and</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>you come back and you need to sort of say, What hit me?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>What happened here? So my initial period afterwards summed up like that.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>12:37</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So this is broadening that a little bit, but what has changed in your</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>life since making the rites, practically, relationally, spiritually?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>12:45</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Well I'll tell you a couple things here. I found the right Open doors.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>They presented doors and they opened doors to me.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Doors that I continue to walk through.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Doors that I'm perhaps not reluctant to walk through.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Doors into liminal space that are limital space that that lead maybe in different</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>directions, all pointing you into my who am I?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>To the question of understanding myself, understanding my relationship.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>With our Creator, with our Creator's Earth, with our relationships.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I would say that.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>In the long run, the pathways that have been opened up probably would not</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>have been as clear to me As they became. A case in point.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>In college, I was an English major.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I just hopped around from history to psychology.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I thought, okay, English is what really speaks to me.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>A classic English major degree is Chaucer, Shakespeare and Milton, and maybe American literature</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>and stuff like that. Well, I experienced Ecstatic poets.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I experienced a metaphor that were not introduced to me through the sort of</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>the classic education system.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And those are those are points and those are paths that I continue to</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>follow, especially in poetry, especially and the arts and seeing the world.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>The man who was the who I mentioned was the ritual elder, Steven Piccha.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I distinctly remember him standing up at the end of the rites.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I don't think I'm giving anything away here to men who have yet</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>to experience it.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But he said: as you go back into your life, there are three things</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>you must embrace.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You must embrace the natural world, become comfortable with it, do not be a</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>stranger to it. You must embrace contemplative practice or practices.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Be they centering prayer, be they chanting, be they dancing, be they any of</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>the branches on the tree of contemplative practices.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And thirdly, you really should find a community of men, like-minded men.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So those are three things that I boy, I still clear as a bell</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>can hear that being said, and there still are sort of North Stars that</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I continue to follow.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I came back, I another guy, another man who had been through the rites</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>at the same time with me, we looked at each other and said, Well,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>let's start a men's group And we got a list of men in our</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>area, sent out an email, gathered, and 17 years later we're still gathering.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>We're still meeting. We're still talking.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I also joined a centering prayer group, a centering lectio group.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Seventeen years later, they're still nourishing.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>My journey and the nature part I just can't sue. Can't get enough of.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So those are some of the things that Of the signs that I keep</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>following in my life.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>15:53</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So before you went to the rites, did you have conversations with people about</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>attending the rites? And what were those like?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>16:00</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>None. Of all my long answers, that's easily the shortest.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I wasn't really certain what I was getting into.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>The descriptions were vague, purposely so. They were sort of mysterious.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Just said, you know, be open. Be open.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>So I really didn't speak to any of the men who were planning it,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>or even I had not connected with any man who had been on it.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I just came with a lot of trust.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>16:31</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>But afterwards, did you have conversations with people?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You said you went back to work the next day.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, no, that's actually just the extension.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I want to see if things have flipped one way or the other.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>16:43</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Well, oh yes. Yes. Yeah, the conversation stone.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Interestingly enough, I think I mentioned a couple of men I met.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>During my entry to the Pilgrim Park area, I would say there are at</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>least a half dozen men who also attended the rites when I did.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And there were over 80 men on there from all over the world.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But at least At least a good half dozen, maybe double that, who I</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>still consider very good friends, who I still walk shoulder to shoulder with on</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>our journey.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Processing the rites afterwards was a challenge, and I think it's becoming easier now.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I think we have created pathways and tools to help you help men connect</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>and process it.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But at that time, it was like the instruction was on the 30th of</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>the month, reach out to the other brothers who were in your small group.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And we did that for about two months. It was all email.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>It wasn't very satisfying. We all kind of dropped it or drifted away.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But other conversations continue to evolve. I love that.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Poem by Rilke, where he says, I live my life in ever-widening circles, and</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I can continue to travel in those ever-widening circles that Really started with the</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>rites. Or I don't know if they no, I shouldn't say that.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>They were enhanced by the rites.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I think my life has always been hopefully moving.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>outward in circles, but I mean I was turbocharged by the rites.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>18:12</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Now have you fully realized the impact of the rites on your life?</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Or is that an ongoing journey? Are you still having new revelations?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>18:21</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Oh, yeah. No, it's the journey is outward and it's inward.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>The inward journey is one of reflection and discernment, and the outward journey is</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>connection, I think, and both those directions. They still resonate.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>There's a case in point.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>There's a Japanese adage that I love that says there are three things are</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>to be feared And hate it.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You might have heard this: earthquakes, fires, and fathers.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Well, I don't have a problem with my father.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You know, my father and I get along really well.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>You know, this is, you know, what's up with that?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But I saw a lot of men who did, who really struggled with wounds.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>The wounds of neglect, the wounds, wounds of expectation, and so on.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I came to understand and appreciate more my relationship with what I have</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>had. With my father.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>It continued to open up and it became a path of appreciation, of understanding</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>him.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And where he was, the journey that he had been on, and my journey,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>and how we had come to that point.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>My parents were very young when I was born. They were 22.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Which now seems almost should be illegal.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But I was born nine months later, and I realized, I've come to realize,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>you know, I was probably. Raised as an experiment.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Neither of my parents really knew how to raise kids.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>As I said, I'm the oldest of four.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But I've come to really appreciate their challenges and where they were coming from.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And my father passed away a couple of years ago at the age of</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>93.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But the last, after my mother died six years earlier, I was his primary</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>companion.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>He lived 90 miles away, but I would be helping to take care of</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>him.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>get his finances in order, getting his apartment shut down and stuff like that.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But we really walked a path of equals, which was I hope that I</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>would have had that experience without the riots, but I'm not certain that I</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>would have.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>20:27</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>You know, I know you not only as a man, that is.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Participated in the rites of passage, but now also is actively involved in offering</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>men's rites of passage and supporting that journey for other men.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>So, how has that experience changed your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and even the</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>male purpose in life?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>20:44</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Oh, brother. That's a loaded question.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>As I said, I participated in the first men's rites of passage that Illinois</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>put on in 2008.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I was blessed to be asked back two years later to help out with</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>that team.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And I've been a member of the men's rites Team ever since, every year,</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>except for the year that you did it, Brian. I was an observer there.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I wasn't part of the team.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But each year I'm very grateful for the opportunity to help and participate in</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>and create the container for men who are there.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But also, It helps deepen my appreciation of what the rites have meant to</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>me. And it's brought more clarity.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I think most men Who go through the rites.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And the rites are not for everyone.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I've met men who came away saying, yeah, okay, I can check that off</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>my bucket list. It was interesting, but not earth-moving.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>But other managers say it's transformative.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>They can look at the time before and after.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And as I continue to help out and participate in my chapters offering the</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>rites, it grows. It grows and it grows and grows.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And at this point, if I may put in a plug for those who</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>are in who feel that way, if you've been to the rites, most likely</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>you come away going, What hit me? You know, what happened?</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And thus Illuman has created an initiator program to allow men to come back</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>and experience that five-day journey from a different perspective.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>And if I had not had that opportunity by working on that, I think</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>I would be much different right now.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>22:36</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>I'm glad you mentioned the initiator program.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>In other conversations, the elder rites has come up, but to date nothing, none</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>of us have talked about the initiator program.</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Let me invite you to say a little bit more about that, specifically because</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>you and I are going to be working with initiators this summer at Pilgrim</v>

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<v Brian Mueller>Park when the Illinois Rites happens in August.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>22:54</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Right, right, right, right.</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>Well, it is a program that has been evolving and developed, and it is</v>

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<v Gary Meagher>an invitation for men who have Participated in the men's rites of passage to</v>

384
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<v Gary Meagher>return, and it is a parallel program. I need to stress that.</v>

385
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:39.600
<v Gary Meagher>It's a parallel program.</v>

386
00:27:39.700 --> 00:27:45.300
<v Gary Meagher>You're not Doing the same thing that the men who are going through the</v>

387
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.800
<v Gary Meagher>rites for their first time. But you have your own circle.</v>

388
00:27:49.900 --> 00:27:55.500
<v Gary Meagher>You have your own leaders. In this case, Brian, it'll be you and me.</v>

389
00:27:55.600 --> 00:28:00.000
<v Gary Meagher>You have Your own prompts, rituals, and opportunity for deep sharing.</v>

390
00:28:00.100 --> 00:28:04.500
<v Gary Meagher>At the same time, you are asked to be a witness.</v>

391
00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:10.200
<v Gary Meagher>To open your arms and hold the container for those men who are there.</v>

392
00:28:10.300 --> 00:28:15.900
<v Gary Meagher>You know, you may be asked to haul some lumber, some wood, some firewood.</v>

393
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:21.200
<v Gary Meagher>You may be asked to set something up to help clean up afterwards.</v>

394
00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:26.900
<v Gary Meagher>But overall, it's an opportunity to be in that sacred space for That those</v>

395
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:28.500
<v Gary Meagher>five limital days.</v>

396
00:28:29.100 --> 00:28:30.600
<v Brian Mueller>24:04</v>

397
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:32.800
<v Brian Mueller>You know, that's terrific.</v>

398
00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:38.500
<v Brian Mueller>I told you at the outset that I don't like to insert too much</v>

399
00:28:38.600 --> 00:28:42.600
<v Brian Mueller>of my experience into these conversations. I really want to.</v>

400
00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:48.300
<v Brian Mueller>At my guests' experiences to shine forth, but I also want to prove that</v>

401
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:54.000
<v Brian Mueller>you're not chatting with an AI, Gary, and tell you that I don't know</v>

402
00:28:54.100 --> 00:28:59.700
<v Brian Mueller>if this is a common experience, but the Wrights were such a transformative and</v>

403
00:28:59.800 --> 00:29:01.400
<v Brian Mueller>powerful experience for me.</v>

404
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:06.700
<v Brian Mueller>As I left the Wrights, my first instinct was, wow, I survived that.</v>

405
00:29:06.800 --> 00:29:08.400
<v Brian Mueller>I'm never coming back.</v>

406
00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:12.900
<v Brian Mueller>And the two years later, I was back as an initiator.</v>

407
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:18.600
<v Brian Mueller>And it speaks to me to the power of that experience to even draw</v>

408
00:29:18.700 --> 00:29:23.500
<v Brian Mueller>you back, even when it was, for me, on some level, overwhelming.</v>

409
00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:29.200
<v Brian Mueller>But that experience as initiator was so powerful, informative in my ongoing relationship and</v>

410
00:29:29.300 --> 00:29:34.900
<v Brian Mueller>entering into the community and has informed my own ongoing commitment to support the</v>

411
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:39.800
<v Brian Mueller>rites. So I'm excited about joining you there for this initiator program.</v>

412
00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:45.500
<v Brian Mueller>But also, even as men who've been there before, you're always a little tentative.</v>

413
00:29:46.100 --> 00:29:47.600
<v Gary Meagher>25:07</v>

414
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:53.800
<v Gary Meagher>I found The word haunting keeps coming up when I think about my rites.</v>

415
00:29:53.900 --> 00:29:59.500
<v Gary Meagher>They kind of haunt you, not in a bad way, but in a good</v>

416
00:29:59.600 --> 00:30:02.800
<v Gary Meagher>way. You yearn to return to that place.</v>

417
00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:08.500
<v Gary Meagher>This is a real sidetrack, but a couple of years ago I had the</v>

418
00:30:08.600 --> 00:30:13.000
<v Gary Meagher>opportunity, the privilege to walk the Comino de Santiago in Spain.</v>

419
00:30:13.100 --> 00:30:18.700
<v Gary Meagher>It was an experience that when I finished my walk, it was 38 days,</v>

420
00:30:18.800 --> 00:30:22.000
<v Gary Meagher>I met people from all over the world.</v>

421
00:30:22.100 --> 00:30:27.700
<v Gary Meagher>But I got home and it was, I felt empty because I wasn't there</v>

422
00:30:27.800 --> 00:30:29.400
<v Gary Meagher>again. It was haunting.</v>

423
00:30:29.500 --> 00:30:35.100
<v Gary Meagher>It just sort of was like one of those top-level experiences that you yearn.</v>

424
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:38.000
<v Gary Meagher>To go back and experience over again.</v>

425
00:30:38.100 --> 00:30:43.300
<v Gary Meagher>Some of the people I've met along the way in Spain have returned.</v>

426
00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:47.000
<v Gary Meagher>It's the same refrain. You know, what was that?</v>

427
00:30:47.100 --> 00:30:51.100
<v Gary Meagher>You know, how it was, how can I process that?</v>

428
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:55.600
<v Gary Meagher>And I would put the men's rites of passage right there.</v>

429
00:30:55.700 --> 00:31:01.300
<v Gary Meagher>Right there with that type of experience. There are very few in our lives.</v>

430
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:05.000
<v Gary Meagher>There are very few in our lives like that.</v>

431
00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:07.100
<v Brian Mueller>26:23</v>

432
00:31:07.700 --> 00:31:11.300
<v Brian Mueller>I just have one more question for you, Gary.</v>

433
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:17.000
<v Brian Mueller>And that's what counsel or advice would you offer to a man who's now</v>

434
00:31:17.100 --> 00:31:20.700
<v Brian Mueller>discerning whether or not to participate in the rites?</v>

435
00:31:21.300 --> 00:31:22.800
<v Gary Meagher>26:31</v>

436
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:29.000
<v Gary Meagher>Well, I become a men's rites of passage junkie, I think, because I've been</v>

437
00:31:29.100 --> 00:31:32.300
<v Gary Meagher>so helped out with so many of them.</v>

438
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:38.000
<v Gary Meagher>So I would say open Your heart, open your gut, get out of your</v>

439
00:31:38.100 --> 00:31:42.100
<v Gary Meagher>mind if the call is there. Answer it. Answer it.</v>

440
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:44.200
<v Gary Meagher>And talk to other men.</v>

441
00:31:44.300 --> 00:31:49.900
<v Gary Meagher>Talk to other men who might have done it, who might be able to</v>

442
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.200
<v Gary Meagher>respect and might be able to give advice.</v>

443
00:31:53.300 --> 00:31:57.700
<v Gary Meagher>But I would say listen to your heart. Blessed your heart.</v>

444
00:31:58.300 --> 00:31:59.800
<v Brian Mueller>27:07</v>

445
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:02.000
<v Brian Mueller>Brother, thank you, really.</v>

446
00:32:02.100 --> 00:32:07.700
<v Brian Mueller>I love you, and I appreciate your honesty, your courage, and thank you for</v>

447
00:32:07.800 --> 00:32:11.000
<v Brian Mueller>giving us a window into your MROP experience.</v>

448
00:32:11.600 --> 00:32:13.100
<v Gary Meagher>27:15</v>

449
00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:16.900
<v Gary Meagher>No, thank you, Brian. It's been a privilege.</v>

450
00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:19.000
<v Brian Mueller>27:17</v>

451
00:32:19.600 --> 00:32:25.200
<v Brian Mueller>For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and</v>

452
00:32:25.300 --> 00:32:30.900
<v Brian Mueller>are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history</v>

453
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:32.500
<v Brian Mueller>of these rites.</v>

454
00:32:32.600 --> 00:32:38.200
<v Brian Mueller>The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was</v>

455
00:32:38.300 --> 00:32:42.700
<v Brian Mueller>first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six.</v>

456
00:32:42.800 --> 00:32:48.400
<v Brian Mueller>While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation,</v>

457
00:32:48.500 --> 00:32:53.300
<v Brian Mueller>since twenty twelve a Lumen has been the steward of this work.</v>

458
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:57.800
<v Brian Mueller>Preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world.</v>

459
00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:03.500
<v Brian Mueller>To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work I highly</v>

460
00:33:03.600 --> 00:33:06.400
<v Brian Mueller>recommend reading Adam's RETURN. by Richard Rohr.</v>

461
00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:12.100
<v Brian Mueller>If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the</v>

462
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:16.600
<v Brian Mueller>United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six.</v>

463
00:33:16.700 --> 00:33:22.300
<v Brian Mueller>The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth the second in</v>

464
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:26.400
<v Brian Mueller>the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth.</v>

465
00:33:26.500 --> 00:33:29.700
<v Brian Mueller>and in Illinois, August twelfth through the sixteenth.</v>

466
00:33:29.800 --> 00:33:35.400
<v Brian Mueller>There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth</v>

467
00:33:35.500 --> 00:33:41.100
<v Brian Mueller>and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP</v>

468
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:45.600
<v Brian Mueller>and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth.</v>

469
00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:51.300
<v Brian Mueller>You can find details and registration information at Illuman dot org slash MROP or</v>

470
00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:53.400
<v Brian Mueller>Illuman dot org slash events.</v>

471
00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:59.100
<v Brian Mueller>Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place</v>

472
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.400
<v Brian Mueller>November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico.</v>

473
00:34:02.500 --> 00:34:06.500
<v Brian Mueller>You can find more at illuman dot org slash awaken.</v>

474
00:34:06.600 --> 00:34:10.600
<v Brian Mueller>Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presents.</v>

475
00:34:10.700 --> 00:34:16.300
<v Brian Mueller>If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your</v>

476
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:17.900
<v Brian Mueller>daily life.</v>

477
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:23.200
<v Brian Mueller>Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence dot org slash app.</v>

478
00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:28.900
<v Brian Mueller>It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed</v>

479
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:33.400
<v Brian Mueller>today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP.</v>

480
00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:35.900
<v Brian Mueller>Until next time, brothers, stay present.</v>