Brian Mueller 00:03 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence. org slash app. Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is John Groleau. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. John Groleau 01:32 Hey, nice spending time with you, Brian. Brian Mueller 01:34 John, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. John Groleau 01:37 Originally, I was born in Lewiston, Maine. And I met my wife in grad school in Ohio, and we she convinced me to move to Chicago area. So I live in Aurora, Illinois. Spend my time. I retired and had a heart attack in 2019. I retired in 2020. And I spend my time. We have six grandkids in the area, so we babysit. I spend a lot of time being prepare, as they call me. Do a lot of woodworking. I make wooden toys, actually in the process of making jewelry boxes and treasure boxes for the grandkids. I'm pretty involved with Knights of Columbus. I'm currently the Grand Knights for a council at our parish. Layla and I have an Airbnb with two properties in Wisconsin, which keeps us busier than I want to be. And I think, and I work out pretty regularly so I can avoid heart attack number two. Brian Mueller 02:29 Thank you. Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. When and where did you make your rites? John Groleau 02:47 I made my rites in uh I can't remember it was either twenty twelve or twenty thirteen uh in uh Texas outside Austin. I think it was called The Ranch. And Jim Taylor was actually the weaver. And I think that was his first, he said that was his whatever year it was, was his first year as weaver. So that's where it happens. And about how many men were there? Oh, Lordy. I'm thinking probably fifty to sixty, from what I remember. Brian Mueller 03:14 And when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth for you? John Groleau 03:18 There was the thing that sticks out in my mind was that Part of the experience where you are by yourself in a like a six foot by six foot square in the middle of the Desert kind of just sitting there with a, you know, a flask of water and a journal and the envelope that they give you. And there was just a You know, it was a little swirly at first. And then I, once I settled down, was really listening and paying attention to my surroundings. But the prompts that they gave me, the stuff that they wanted you to think about, were You know, I hadn't really thought about him in in an environment of solitude like that ever. So it was pretty it was it was pretty um mind-expanding. Brian Mueller 04:05 Now, in general terms, what was the entire weekend like for you? John Groleau 04:09 You know, I've always enjoyed ever since I was in high school when I belonged to a youth group, I've always enjoyed spending time with people and really I - I'm not a superficial person. I mean, chatting about the weather gets old after about five or ten seconds. And so really being able to get down and find out what's on men's hearts and to really have that connection was what really spoke to me. Brian Mueller 04:31 Now without sharing anything you'd consider confidential, tell us about some elements of the rites that really stood out to you. John Groleau 04:38 As I said, I think that it's now like 13, 14 years ago. I'm trying to remember what it was like. But oddly enough, the one thing that That really had a huge impact on me was one of the gentlemen who was there to serve. I forget the role that he had, worked in a VA hospital. And He and I had a chance to share about centering prayer. And he taught he actually taught meditation to vets at a veteran's hospital. And I've been doing, you know, I've been doing Saturday and Prayer for a while. And he was telling me that they found statistically and medically, they found that if you meditate. Once a day reduces your stress levels by about 30%. And if you do it twice a day, it reduces it by 70%. And I'd never really done it. twice a day. And so I really had made start made a commitment to start doing it twice a day. And so for me, that may have not been the original intention of going on the MROP. But that that meeting, and I can't remember the guy's name, really impacted me for my life. That was a huge, huge long term effect for me. Brian Mueller 05:55 I don't ask this question a lot, but I'm curious, how was what was it like meeting the other men that were in your group at the rites? John Groleau 06:02 You know, it was They're all different. They're all the same. I mean, everyone came with different issues, different expectations. But I think we all crave the same thing, which is Having a deeper connection with God and having a deeper connection with men, which is, you know, I mean, I've been married for I'm gonna be forty one years and I love my wife, but there's just certain things that that are I'm more comfortable and have more of a connection with men than I do with uh with Layla in terms of if I'm trying to share what's going on w in my life. Brian Mueller 06:39 Have you been able to keep in touch with any of the men in your council or any of the men that you've met at the rites or do you see them occasionally? John Groleau 06:46 I do, actually. One of the uh nobody uh nobody in that particular MROP, but same other guys at in other MROPs or other retreats in the Illuman uh events. You know, I could see them a couple of times a year. One gentleman in particular, he and his wife are in our marriage and carnivore communities, we set we see each other once a month. Brian Mueller 07:08 Now, I want you to think back to the circumstances that led you to participate in the Rites. What was going on in your life at that time and influenced your decision to attend? John Groleau 07:17 Oh, golly. Well, I was I had my own business. I was a financial planner and I was putting in a pretty easy schedule of seventy hours a week, nights, weekends. You know, our kids were actually our kids were the last one was n out of college and So, you know, you're kind of empty nesters, and you're trying to figure out what's the next phase, and I'm thinking about retiring and stuff. And just a lot of stress. Just my life was very, very stress-filled. And so I was. I'm sorry. You know what, Brian? I just got sidetracked. What was the question again? Brian Mueller 08:01 No, I was asking to do it that's all right. I was asking you, and you were describing some of the circumstances in your life as you made the decision. So what was it at that point that said, Yeah, I want to do this? John Groleau 08:12 I'd say that it was that, you know, I don't know if it's St. Augustine that talked about, you know, the God-hole, you know, our hearts will not rest until they rest in thee, O Lord. And I was just feeling spiritually restless. I was looking for something. I've always been a pretty deep person, and I just something deep down was missing, and I wanted I needed to fill that. Brian Mueller 08:34 So thinking back to the day that you kind of arrived at the rites and first came in, was there were you carrying with you something that you were hoping for to get at the rites? Or was there also or in spite of was there something else that you were fearing about the rites? John Groleau 08:49 Did you say hearing or fearing? Brian Mueller 08:51 Fearing. John Groleau 08:52 No, I've, you know, I've been going on retreats since high school. So I've always enjoyed. going on retreats and some of them have had a major impact in my life. I really didn't go with uh any expectations. If you know this friend of mine from my from Marriage Encounters like, oh, you're going to love it you know, very little description in terms of what's going to happen. It said it'll be life-changing. And I was just really up for having a new experience in my life. Brian Mueller 09:20 And when you think back to the day that you left the rites, so right after the closing of the rites and you left to go back to the airport or whatever, how did you how did you feel at that moment? John Groleau 09:31 I guess a combination of cleansed might be a word. And like I got and got rid of some baggage. hopeful. I mean, having met some other men and I was looking forward to hopefully, you know, being able to continue that experience and just feeling more at peace. Brian Mueller 09:52 Now it's been, I guess, getting close to fifteen years since you participated in the rites. Since that time, what has changed in your life, practically, relationally, spiritually? John Groleau 10:03 Well, I think what's changed is I have become much more at peace. I mean, things that I prayed for in my life for years are just asking God for inner peace. And I always seem to struggle to find that. And so I've really been able to, I think, you know, been committed to doing center in prayer. twice a day since then. And Senator Prayer doesn't really eliminate the problems. It just helps them flow through or around me. because I'm just offering less resistance. And so I think it's been a good that's been a major impact. And then I think sometimes you get involved in small groups and there are always Every once in a while you're going to find somebody in the group that's just going to drive you absolutely baddy just because he either talks too much or doesn't really answer the question or whatever. And I find myself being able to let go of my preconceived notions of how he should respond or shouldn't respond, and just kind of Realize, you know, he's at where he's at. So I think as a result of me being more at peace within myself, I'm able to let others be at peace with wherever they are in life. Brian Mueller 11:24 When you think back and so you say you had a friend that kind of supported you on the rites and urged you to go, I think you said he told you it would be a life-changing experience. When you told other people that you wanted to do these rites, you were going to participate, like your wife, maybe even some friends, did they have any particular action reaction? Were they supportive or were they resistant? John Groleau 11:45 No, nobody was resistant. They were they were supportive. I think that yeah, no, I really didn't. I mean, there's people that I know that are that may be a little on the we'll say conservative side of our church. And sometimes they may look at Father Richard Rohr's thoughts and philosophies as being quote unquote too liberal. But no, I think I don't think so at all. I - I've that I've become more of a and person through this. So instead of being, you know, conservative or liberal, uh, Republican or Democrat or whatever it is, I'm more the both and - a lot more encompassing and accepting of others. And it's hard to say I'm less judgmental because our minds are judgement-making machines, but I think I've become I have become more empathetic and less judgmental towards others as well as myself. Brian Mueller 12:40 No, I think what you just said kind of lends alludes to some of what I'm asking now. But I want to know how did the rites affect your really personal relationships, like your relationship with your wife, perhaps with your kids? John Groleau 12:52 With you know, with the kids, I came back and realized how as a dad, you know, always try to be your best, but sometimes you at some point, you become aware of, oh my gosh, they didn't realize I was treating people this particular way. And my tendency was to treat people like idiots. And, you know, it's like what for whatever reason, you know, somebody says something which I regard as stupid. It's like, oh my gosh, this guy's an idiot. And, you know, if you reflect long enough, you realize that's because I regarded myself as an idiot. So when I recognized that, I really used that time to go back to my kids and also my wife and, you know, come clean with the way that I had been treating them and seeing them and kind of Not only asked for their forgiveness to move on, but also said, Listen, if you see me doing this, let me know. Because it's going to take time to correct this habit or behavior that's been going on for years. So that was a It was, I think, a real mile mark for our family. Brian Mueller 13:52 So, how is your understanding of masculinity initiation or the purpose of man's life changed over this time? And maybe we can even start with: did you have a preconception of initiation prior to it, and then after experience, did that change? John Groleau 14:05 My preconception of initiation was: I never really had that growing up. My dad was He was a good dad, but my grandfather was never around. He was up in Canada lumberjacking. So my dad and his brothers never really had a strong father image. So the initiation of stuff you'd expect Or you'd hope you get never really happened. You know, so I never really learned how to make my dad really never showed me how to make decisions. Really, how to interact with other men. And so it's kind of stuff that, you know, it's kind of like there's this fish in there. In Africa, it's a cave fish and it can't has blind and it just kind of bumps along, finding hoping to find food. And I think a lot of men go through life bumping along without really having a clear vision. For what their life is for and the meaning. And so as I said, I really had no preconceived notion or idea of what initiation was, but it You know, and so after I went through that, I realized I want my kids to, especially my sons, I want my sons to have some type of experience like this so that they can now learn how to look at the life through a man's eyes rather than children, which I think I think it's a it's an ep it's a an epidemic issue in our in our worlds. Men just don't know how to act as men. these days. Brian Mueller 15:31 What do you think is the message for younger men today in terms of the a more positive message about masculinity? Maybe that you would offer to your sons, even to your grandchildren? John Groleau 15:42 First thing that pops into my head is, you know, it's okay to cry, which I have done in front of my kids. Every time I give a retreat at church, I'm usually kind of leaking from my own eyes at some point. So, you know, being able to open up your feelings and also Recognizing that feelings are neither good or bad, they just are. So there's no judgment in terms of whether you're sad or happy or angry. It's just what you do with those feelings that causes problems. So expressing your feelings is great. I think that's yeah, that's kind of what's popping up so far. Brian Mueller 16:20 What's the biggest takeaway? Or maybe there might be more than one, but the biggest takeaway for you from the rites? John Groleau 16:26 One, I guess is the recognizing that that I never want to stop growing. Either in my faith or in my relationships, because it's either I look at it, I know it's kind of black and white, either you're growing or you're dying. And so if you're not growing in your faith, if you're not deepening, if I'm not deepening my relationship with God or with my wife or with my kids or with my friends, then I am basically kind of checking out. It's like that. The Gospel passage, you know, the servant who took his talent and buried it in the ground, as opposed to the other ones that multiplied them. Brian Mueller 17:06 And what kind of what counsel or advice would you give a man who's considering participating in the rites? John Groleau 17:13 I think I guess I'd ask him where he is in life and what he's looking for. And, you know, having read Father Richie's book, you know, Falling Upward, and if the gentleman is, you know, like 55 and older. I'd want to ask them, where are you at in your first half of life, second half of life? And I'd say, you know, this experience is really going to help you. Now that you've built your tower and everything else, now is the time to give back. Now's the time to really Make use of the talents and gifts that God has given you. And this is going to be a process to really help you establish a vision for what you're Next years are, and also having a group of guys that can support you to grow in that direction. Brian Mueller 18:05 I just have really one more question for you, John, and that is, what would you say about the Illuman community? You're someone who's been involved somewhat with Illuman over since you've made the rites. You participate in retreats and go to other events. What do you have to say about Illuman as a community and what that experience has been like for you? John Groleau 18:23 I think it's a very unique community. It really is, I'd say it's anti- Establishment, maybe. I mean, it's really I think the Illuman community is really helping men to become genuine, to really clarify and weed out the things that are That are unimportant or less important than to focus on where we should be going as a man, as a community, as a culture. And I think having that kind of experience is really going to be a beacon for other people. I mean, if you look around at the I mean, this year, I think like last year they said, I know in our diocese, the amount of people that are getting into rites of Christian initiation, I get coming back to the church. We are they've fifty percent increase over last year, and they've doubled from that the year before. So people are searching. And we need to find them. We need to find them a place that they could plug into, that they could belong and be part of. And I think Illuman is definitely a part of that process and a part of that community. Brian Mueller 19:36 Brother, thank you so much. I appreciate your honesty, your courage, and thank you for giving us that window into your MROP experience and beyond. I really enjoyed talking to you. John Groleau 19:45 Thanks, Brian. Brian Mueller 19:46 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth, the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth, and in Illinois, august twelfth through the sixteenth. There's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth, and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. You can find details and registration information at Illuman. org slash MROP or Illuman. org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman. org slash awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presents. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence. org slash app. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present.