Brian Mueller 00:03 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in twenty fourteen. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the Rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org/app. Now the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Steve Conroy. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. Steve Conroy 01:33 Thank you, Brian. I'm glad to be here. Brian Mueller 01:35 Steve, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. Steve Conroy 01:39 I'm from Gilroy, California. I'm born in San Francisco and spent most of my life in the Bay Area living here. I'm retired now. I worked in IT and I worked in the healthcare industry for a while. Brian Mueller 01:59 Now, let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. When and where did you make your rites? Steve Conroy 02:16 We went to Ross Valley, New York. So a plane ride all the way across the country. And it was in 2006. Brian Mueller 02:27 And who was the weaver and about how many men were at your rites? Steve Conroy 02:31 Richard Rohr was the weaver. It's one of the last films he did. I think there was over 100, 110 about. Brian Mueller 02:40 So when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes forth? Steve Conroy 02:45 Just that I was really in a raw, vulnerable state. And I'd been things were going wrong with my marriage. And I've been diagnosed as clinically depressed. So just very raw emotionally getting there. Brian Mueller 03:10 And in general terms, what was the weekend like for you? Steve Conroy 03:14 It was miraculous, really. Some just amazing things happened. Even in the middle of my own fears and everything going in, just stuff happened. It was crazy. Yeah. Brian Mueller 03:33 And without sharing anything you'd consider confidential, tell us about some of the elements of the rites that stood out to you. Steve Conroy 03:40 I guess the biggest thing that happened to me was the very first ritual Yeah, like I said, I was very raw and I was just like taken up by what was happening in front of me. And then something was broken and when that broke, I just felt something inside of me kind of breaking apart. And I don't know what that was. But yeah, it was really a powerful experience. Brian Mueller 04:16 Was there one part of the rites that spoke most strongly to you? Steve Conroy 04:22 I would say that moment was something, you know, and for me, I've worked. I need to go back and but I'm getting up near working, assisting at thirty rites of passages. after worked working a logistics elder, and I was in the ritual, but coming back and serving in that capacity I can honestly tell you that I see things every time I go. And especially at first, I'm like, I don't remember that. I don't remember we did that. I was really, they talk about the concept of liminal space there, and I was in liminal space for sure. You know, I didn't, I didn't, and I, and I had this fear on me, in me, and everything. And I remember leaving there, and that feeling was still kind of there. It was still there, but I had some hope, you know. We were in upstate New York and I got on the bus and Richard got on the bus with us driving. And everybody was bugging him, talking to him. And I waited till He was alone and no one was bugging. And I started asking him about this fear I had inside of me, you know, what was going on. He was just I mean, I understood then, you know, his capacity at being a jail chaplain and how he could work with men, because he just Was so affirming and saw exactly what I was talking about. And I didn't know exactly what I was talking about, but he kind of saw it. So that was just, and he offered just some words of encouragement. No, you know, I could tell people I didn't hear anything that, you know, fixed my problem or, um, Or took that fear totally away. It all just started to leave over time after the fact, you know, after being there. Yeah, it kind of reframed a lot of things for me. I see this as I work the rites of passages. doesn't happen with everybody, but I would say a majority of men get some sort of aha moment. You know, it's some sort of oh God. You know, it's something that just lights them up and gives them clarity of what is going on in their life. So it's very encouraging to see that happening over and over again. And that's why I kind of like to serve them in any capacity at the MROP because I know that it does have the power to really make a difference. And it doesn't matter if you're young or old. It can happen to any man at any stage in life. I just happen to be kind of. Midlife and going through what I would call a midlife crisis. I just happened to be in that category. Brian Mueller 07:57 So having been part of so many of these ritual events now, is there a memory or maybe a couple of memories that really stand out to you that you can share? Steve Conroy 08:07 I could tell you. My experience, another thing that happened to me, I talked about the miraculous and it was all about the flying out there. I was supposed to meet a friend. You know, he was late, and I was like in a headspace where I didn't, I had a hard time being alone, you know, and I'm like, oh, what the hell? So it's like panic time. What am I going to do with Eight hours of time, you know. And we were in New York. I ended up going to a baseball game. It was like, it was like the first time in a long time where I felt Settled and calm, just sitting at a baseball game eating peanut peanuts. It was just and I'm like, wow, this is different, you know? And Then I told the guy who was driving us to the airport, he said, You went to the ball game? Dude, you got balls, dude. But uh And then, you know, we do our time out in nature. So there's a lone time. A lot of the MROP is Spent time in nature. You know, you have a lot of time in nature, and there's one significant period of time. And I felt like I got two messages while I was out in nature. And one was, you know, there was a hummingbird pecking all day. And the message I wrote down after watching him, I was like, just keep pecking away. You're doing all the right things. And then there was another, there was a green fern there that caught my eye. And I was like, wow, look how green that is. And everything was green. The whole place was green. It was raining. And then all of a sudden I saw a little dead one next to it. And then all of a sudden I look up and I just saw all kinds of dead stuff in the in the woods. You know, it's like all that jumped out at me once I saw that one little. So I wrote in my notebook, Notice the Dead and Dying Among You. And I don't know why I wrote either of those statements. That's just what came to me in the moment. So I'm not even home. I fly from New York. We stop in Denver. And there's a Quiznos sandwich shop. And I go in there to get a sandwich and it's packed. Nowhere to sit. So I'm walking out to sit somewhere else in the airport, and the guy says Come over here, come over here, sit down right here. It's called So it's a little table. And anyway He gets a phone call. I get a phone call. And it sounds like he's somebody's AA sponsor. He's given a lot of advice. So I ask him about it. And he says, oh, no, it's a guy who's having problems in his marriage. And I said, That's funny, 'cause I'm having problems in my marriage, you know. And he just goes on and starts saying, Here's what you need to do, like this whole prescriptive list. And he just goes, boom, boom, telling me. You need to find a friend and you could talk to all the time. And I'm like, well, I just got off the phone with this guy. And I'm just everything he says, I'm going check, check, check, check, check. So it's almost confirmation of The message, keep pecking away. You're doing all the right things. You know, everything this guy says, I'm already, it's already in process. It's nothing I need to start. It was kind of weird. And then we're in like a few weeks later, we have a small group council. And one of the guys there who he doesn't know me. He's like the president of some big charitable organization. He doesn't know me very well at all. And I'm talking about, you know, my marriage and what's happening there, and things are still not good. He just gets up and he starts saying, You know what? You're a selfish son of a bitch. You need to. And he just starts going at me. He says I should go sign up for hospice and read to people that are dying and something like that. And at first I'm thinking, this guy's out of line. He doesn't know me. How could he just go and say all that stuff to me? But we had this we did this group process where we had people, you know, it's like je it was called hot seat, but you sit in the seat And people would say things about you, you know, like, you know, good things and bad things. It was all good things and bad things. And there was judgments about you. And the only thing you could say is It's true or it's somewhat true. So I had to look at what he was saying to me, and I couldn't say, you know, in my head, I turned it around and I said, I can't say it's false. You know, that he just doesn't know me. So I have to say it's somewhat true. And so I went and I volunteered at a hospice. I was never reading to people. But I wrote letters to family members. You know, if their mother was dying, you know, I'd write letters to the family and um kind of following up with them During the process and after the person died. So, yeah, I did that for a couple years. So I was just and then the weirdest thing that happened there was like people at my work would just show up at my desk and say, Oh, Steve, I don't my mother-in-law, she's going to pass away. And I never told anybody I was going into hospice or anything. I didn't. It was just like but two people specifically, a guy with his son who died from cancer, and This gal who I didn't even work with her. She was upstairs and worked in the projects department, and we were downstairs. But for some reason, She came, sat at my desk and just started pouring her heart out to me. And I don't know where that came comes from, but I just have to, you know, tips. something miraculous to me that I was even in a position to be able to comfort her, to listen to her, and offer her something at that time. I don't think it would have happened without going to the MROP. Brian Mueller 14:56 Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. So it sounds to me like you're saying that just the decision to participate in an MROP. Created sort of this wide liminal space that extended well beyond the time you spent at Frost Valley. And, you know, last, it drew you into other things, but in a bigger part of your life. Steve Conroy 15:14 Yeah, you know, the part of coming to an MROP, if you take it seriously and kind of, you know. Truly prepare, you know, that process starts well before you get there, and it's almost never ending. I don't know that we truly process everything that Happens to us, things continue to unfold. Because, like I said, I keep going there and serving, and new things come up to me every time while I'm there, just listening to people's stories. Brian Mueller 15:44 Now thinking back to your decision to go on a rites of passage, can you tell us a little bit more about what were the circumstances that led you to participate, what was going on in your life at that time? Steve Conroy 15:55 So, I was part of a men's group here in Gilroy. And It was a church group, but we used talking sticks. It was kind of like council thought, without a lot of the boundaries of council as well. But It was still good. It was a great group. And one of the guys there kept recommending events and things. So we did. We did the Mankind Project New Warrior Training Adventure at first. And then one of the guys went to in 2006 went to Albuquerque to the MROP. And he recommended it. And I signed up. And then immediately, you know, I was I was there was this crisis in my marriage, you know, that I had already signed up. And there was another guy going with me. So there's two of us, you know, going uh but my life at that time was although I had a support group, I was I was with uh Good men at that time helping me through, I was still kind of a mess. So I was Pretty raw. Did that answer your question? I forget what your question is. Brian Mueller 17:22 No, absolutely. I was kind of wanting to get at the circumstances surrounding your decision to go to the rites. Now I might ask you. As you entered the rites, as you got closer and closer, if not physically going into the space of Frost Valley, did you have something that you were holding on that was a hope? Or was there something that you were afraid of as you headed into the rites? Steve Conroy 17:43 Really wasn't afraid of anything that would happen there. You know, my fear was around, you know, what was going on at home. You know, was that a gift, you know, because for all intents and purposes, you know, my marriage is ending then. You know, it did end. Things happened, but it was like For me, I had a lot of guilt around that. Yeah, so I felt a lot of responsibility that I was not You know, a good husband, you know, it's like my already in the second marriage, you know. So this second time. The first time it was pretty easy to blame my ex-wife and everybody in my family blamed her. But this time I'm like, you know, the only common thing is me. Two marriages and I'm the common denominator. So, what is wrong with me? You know, so there's a lot of that judgment. Being really critical with myself, beating myself up, that kind of thing. Brian Mueller 18:54 So the rites, as you left the rites, you already talked a little bit about the flight home and those sort of thing. But when you left After spending, you know, four nights, parts of five days at Frost Valley, what was the immediate feeling you left with? Steve Conroy 19:09 Yeah, like I said, you know, the, the, there was, there was still this, um, fear in my head, you know, because now, you know, while I was there, I was there and I was able to give space from, you know, what was happening at home. But now I had to I had to confront what was Coming home. So I that fear was there, and talking to Richard was super helpful. Part of the message of the MROP is life is part of the process. What happens in life is part of the process. To deny it or resist it, is like, I don't know how to say it, but you know, to deny or resist life is like not really trusting that that's the right thing for you. God uses those kind of things to get your attention. You know, that's Richard Rohr's famous quote, right? Success has very little to teach you in the first half of life. God uses failure to get your attention. So I was kind of embracing that. So when I come home, I just immediately boom. Had this hard talk with my wife. And that's the thing I was the most afraid of, you know, to have that hard talk. But it gave me the, you know, the courage to go. follow through with that. Brian Mueller 20:42 It's now been twenty years since you made your rites. That's a long time. You kind of said earlier that you're never done processing everything that that experience is about, especially now as you've returned to the rites and see things anew each time. But yeah, what has really what has changed in those twenty years in your life that that you would say is a direct result of this experience? Steve Conroy 21:05 I would say that the biggest thing for me is I have friends all over the world now. We've been To Ireland, Latvia, Poland. And I can honestly say I have really good friends, you know, there. And I can go there and they welcome me. It's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing to see that what works here for us in America It works over there, and men are the same over there. They have the same cares, concerns, and everything that we have here. So it's very universal what happens with the MROP and with men in general if you're open and honest. You know, willing to do the work. Yeah, so I would say the biggest thing for me is like there's this huge fellowship of men and support and people that I know. Yeah. Brian Mueller 22:16 I want to get at a little bit at the idea of what the decision to go to the MROP, how that affects our personal relationships. So when you made the decision to go on the men's rites You know, who did you tell? Obviously, you probably talked to your wife, but you may have told other people in your life. And I'd like to know what their response was initially. Steve Conroy 22:37 Yeah, a lot of people will not understand and they didn't understand, you know, like immediate family members for me. You know, they're like, oh, okay, that's great for you, you know, but they don't want to know any more. They don't want to dig any deeper. But that's just my family. I know other. Brothers and sister, brothers, and yeah, sisters that are kind of doing this work side by side. So that's not every family. There was so the group we had at the church, you know, we had that big men's group And we'd have like a hundred guys show up on a Monday night, you know, then we'd break into small groups. It was significant. We had hundreds of guys coming through that men's community. And Not everybody was, as Adventura says, like the guy who recommended it, he's always like pushing the envelope. My friend Gary, so he's okay looking outside of the box. But some people, you know, I'm in this box at church. And, you know, I'm not going to deviate. You know, it's this is this is what I do, you know. And that that works for them. But You know, for me, I think unless you get out of your comfort zone, there's no growth. You know, staying comfortable is It's like, I worked as a physical therapist in physical therapy, and we said the position of comfort is a position of contracture. You know, like if your arm, if you never move your arm, it's just going to be stuck. There. It's going to stick in one place, and you're going to have trouble and pain moving it. So the thing to do is get out and move, you know, and do things. So by staying stuck in one place, I think that same thing can happen spiritually, mentally, and emotionally. You just get stuck, and this is what I do, and this is all I do, you know. But eventually You know, that might not work for you anymore. And then you're unhappy in that place. Brian Mueller 25:06 After the MROP, how did your relationships, your interpersonal relationships and even your conversations about the MROP change? Steve Conroy 25:15 Well, like I said, I had that hard talk with my wife. So Yeah. We were kind of separated for a while, and then we tried to work it out. Then eventually it was like I went to another aluminum event. I came home from that. And again, immediately we had this conversation because I'd come home. My ex was living somewhere else and working somewhere else during the week, but she'd come home on the weekend. And then just be mad as hell and angry. I just told her, Look, if all you're going to do is come home and yell at me, I don't want you here, you know. So I was able to put a firm boundary, which is, you know, for me, I didn't do boundaries very well back in those days. So I took a lot of abuse. So, yeah, I was I was uh just kind of trying to be around people that were uh more positive and like-minded. And uh Uplifting and trying to stay with, and that's still a process for me to really monitor my own thinking about negative thinking and not beating myself up. and being in a more in a more positive mind state that um I believe you know in in some ways we create our own realities, right? If we think doom and gloom, you know, all of a sudden we're in doom and gloom, you know. So trying to turn all that thinking around has been like this lifelong Thing for me, and it really started then, you know, at the MROP, you know. So it's just different people, different conversations. A lot of the people are the same though. Just now we're having different conversations because there are They've been on this journey with you. So it's been great. Brian Mueller 27:11 How has your understanding of masculinity, initiation, or even the purpose of a man's life shifted over time? Steve Conroy 27:21 Yeah, I, you know, growing up, you know, I was pretty naive, you know, thinking if I get married, have kids, you know, go to church. You know, that's I'm doing the right things. It should all work out. You know, for me, it obviously didn't. For some people, it might. I'm - nowadays I look at it as a more nuanced thing, you know, and like I never knew anything about four archetypes, you know lover, warrior, magician, king, and you know how these energies are you may not have experienced it at the right time, like if you're grown up in a house without any love, you miss out on that lover archetype. In your life, you know, or if you never venture out on your own and get a job, do work, you know, you may be lacking the warrior archetype or things like that. But just knowing that those energies are within us, they’re innate. That we have them and tapping into that kind of stuff. So I had a conversation with my friend, I don't know what he liked He's 70, whatever years old, and he wants to fight everybody about doctrines and all kinds of stuff. He's always wanting to argue. I'm like, dude. You're a grandfather now. Just bless people. Embrace the grandfather energy, you know, and the king, the king that blesses people, you know, is serving people, not fighting everybody. I don't know how you have the energy to do that your whole life. But he's not happy and I don't know if that answered your question, but I kind of went off. Brian Mueller 29:19 No, that's great. I would like to ask you, what counsel or advice would you offer a man who is currently discerning whether or not to participate in a men's rites of passage? Steve Conroy 29:29 I would just say listen to your heart. There's a lot of information out there. In Northern California, we're doing an MROP in a month's time. May 2026. Go to the website. You can hear Richard talk about initiation there. And that's really good because he's the one who developed these rites. And Yes. Seems to make the most sense when you hear him talk about it. But just the hearing other people, you know, ask questions. Ask your family. A lot of times, you know, a woman will hear about this and encourage her husband to go. So ask your wife, you think this would be appropriate for you, you know. They may encourage you to go. Yeah. Brian Mueller 30:17 Brother, I have one more question for you. You mentioned that when you went to the rites in 2006, you traveled with a friend. You made that decision to kind of accompany each other to the rites. And that's certainly possible, and some men do that. What would you say about that experience? Would you recommend that if someone is unsure that they maybe find a buddy? Or what would you say about that? Steve Conroy 30:40 I think it's a good way because you can talk about it before, you could talk about it after. But while you're there, we were pretty good about keep giving each other space and letting each other have our own experience there. But then we were able to debrief, talk about it afterwards. And of course, we had our friend who had went like six months earlier. But we had a lot of people and eventually a lot of other people started doing it that were in our group. So it was It was great. Yeah, because when you have that kind of support coming out of the MROP, it's really what I would recommend. Don't just leave the MROP and think, okay, I'm done. I checked that box. It's all my work is done. No initiation is a start. Yeah. So the work continues. Brian Mueller 31:40 I'd like to offer you the opportunity to say something else about the rites or something that's on your heart. As a man who's been involved in this work for a long time and has actively created Rites of Passage experiences for others and supported that. Is there anything else you'd have to offer? Steve Conroy 31:57 I would just offer that being part of a lot of these, the amount of Preparation, the amount of care, the amount of concern that the team has for each initiate is Pretty, pretty overwhelming. It moves me. And um what happens And I said it was for me, the experience was magical. And I see this happen over and over again: that something just happens that you can't account for. at most of these MRLPs. And I believe a lot of it is due to the care, concern, preparation, the prayers that go into this. It starts Sometimes two years before the event, people are planning, people are preparing, and they're getting ready for these initiatives to come. So it's a very special container where people can feel safe, they can trust it. Brian Mueller 33:07 Thank you so much, brother, really deeply. Thank you for your honesty, your courage, and for giving us a window into your experience at your first MROP in the many since then. So thank you. Steve Conroy 33:16 Thank you, Brian. Thanks for doing this. This is really great. Brian Mueller 33:20 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more. Allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The men's rites of passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, in nineteen ninety six. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since twenty twelve Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in twenty-twenty six. The first is in Northern California, may thirteenth through the seventeenth the second in the United Kingdom, July twenty second through the twenty sixth and in Illinois, august twelfth through the sixteenth there's one on the East Coast, in New Jersey, September sixteenth through the twentieth And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September thirtieth through October fourth. You can find details and registration information at Illuman. org slash mrop or Illuman dot org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman dot org slash awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presents. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence.org/app. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present.