Brian Mueller 00:03 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org. Now, the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today, we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Ramiro de la Garza. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. Thanks for having me. Ramiro, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. Ramiro de la Garza 01:38 I'm originally from South Texas and born and raised in South Texas, middle of nowhere. But my second home, I've been up in Illinois for about 20, 25 years now, plus or minus. And that's where I got married. I've, you know, my kids were born here. So a little bit of both worlds. How I spend my time is mostly with family outside of work. I do participate in the local Illuman chapter. I'm a member there and, you know, I'm in and out of those gatherings. I'm also sober for a few years now. I'm a member of, you know, the AA community and, and, uh, that's a big part of my life. Um, it's kind of a foundational piece and I, you know, without that, I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. So, uh, I'll probably be, be going back and forth with that quite a bit in this, in this conversation, I think. Um, but we'll see where it goes, but I think that, that kind of sums it up. Brian Mueller 02:49 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. When and where did you make your rites? Ramiro de la Garza 03:07 I made my rites in 2022 in Pilgrim Park here in Illinois. Brian Mueller 03:13 And do you recall who the Weaver was and about how many men were there? Ramiro de la Garza 03:16 The weaver was, I believe, Jim Taylor, I believe. Long-haired feller, spirited, emotional, soulful, and maybe 35, 40 men. I may have that wrong, but I think that's a good number. Brian Mueller 03:32 And when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image that comes to your mind? Ramiro de la Garza 03:38 Apprehension at first, but it changed. I didn't know anybody. I really didn't. So I was flying blind and I was a little apprehensive. But my experience or my attitude or my disposition changed, I would say, by the hour, as soon as men started floating in. And I could see that I wasn't the only one that was kind of weirded out by just being around men for the first time. We're not big talkers, right? So we kind of just look at each other and size each other up and, uh, and, uh, the ice continued to break slowly. Yeah. So I don't know what else I could really say other than bewilderment at first and a slow kind of roll into feeling accepted and, and, um, I guess embraced by the process of it. Brian Mueller 04:39 Now, sum up that weekend in general terms, what was it like for you? Ramiro de la Garza 04:43 well a little bit of what I just said just now is um the initial what's going to happen here I had my own like my own idea of how this was going to go and uh I didn't know anything I mean they don't really tell they didn't really disclose much really um so that that freaked me out a little bit the question was again. Can you tell me the question one more time? Brian Mueller 05:16 Just in general terms what was the entire weekend like for you? -The entire weekend. Ramiro de la Garza 05:22 Awe and wonder to put it as succinctly as I can and it happened very quickly because they kind of the process slowly kind of shaves off distraction and very quickly and uh very quickly myself and I could see another man we start to go inside and then slowly but surely the process uh the long talks the law the sitting in the circle the ritual will slowly begin to pull us out and this pulling out and going back inside the pulling out of the experience of being with other men having done the same thing and then going into quiet again so this process of being stretched and then having to go back inside with the experience of having been stretched spiritually emotionally mentally um over and over and over again and it seemed like this was happening by the minute because the subject matter I wouldn't say is inaccessible but it's really it is deep it's simply put but really deep so I'll say one more thing about it it's um continuous affirmation of what of what was what had been in my mind in my heart for years, but could never quite put into words. And the men that were there and in the circles we were in, over and over and over again, I was finding the words being spoken by other men over and over and over again. They were confirming what was in my heart and in my mind. And that continuous affirmation was there and present throughout, Even in my quiet moments when I was on my own, I felt like I was walking with all the men there. And I think that in and of itself was a singular experience. I'd never had that before. I'd never experienced anything like that before. And that was the whole weekend. Or the whole time I was there. I think that, and there's many examples of that. essentially is this this deep penetrating connection on a human level with people I never met before and was having this deep fundamental essential foundational yes and everyone was feeling in their own way through the tears through laughter their sadness their joy um you could feel the undulation the undulating emotions throughout the entire room at times you know you could feel when men were breaking through you could feel when men were going deep inside and sinking dealing with sorrow dealing with unresolved things you could feel when they were when they were being affirmed in themselves when they were when they were finding themselves for the first time in a long time. And the little frown maybe turned into a crack of a smile, a little bit of a glint in the eye. You could see them change. And me too, like I saw it in myself, but I needed other men to tell me it was happening. Otherwise, I wouldn't have recognized it, which is why I think it's so powerful because in a community, there's witnesses. So we're all witnessing. We're all bearing witness to each other's transformation, you know, and it says we're all working mirror to mirror, like constantly seeing each other changed throughout each day. And, uh, it's remarkable. It's really, it's never had I experienced anything like that before. And, uh. Yeah. Brian Mueller 09:27 Well, thank you. Really the depth and the detail, uh, there you shared is wonderful. So without sharing anything you'd consider, you know, confidential or too personal, tell us about an element of the rites that stood out to you or even a story, a personal interaction you had there that really was resonant. Ramiro de la Garza 09:49 Well, I'm probably, this is probably not exclusive to me, but I would say, I would say the grief ritual was where things broke apart and broke through for me the most. I left a piece of myself in that room that day and a piece that needed to go away. And not in a bad way, in a good way. There's something I'd been carrying around a long time. And I was able to say goodbye to it that day. But I don't think I would have been able to do that without this cathartic process. and having and hearing other men uh go through this because it's kind of like this enormous crescendo event and uh the crescendoing of emotion um in all directions it's loud it's uncomfortable it's confrontational you can't you can't run away you have to face it you have to look at it And by it, I mean, I had to look at me to really look at myself. And there was nowhere to hide. And I needed that. I needed to uncover that boulder and look at what was under there and go to battle with it. And that's what I did. And I went batshit crazy in that space for that room. And it worked. It worked. I emerged from that experience a new man, brand new, whatever it was. And I won't get too detailed about that, but it was a lot of things. Life has its way with us. It had its way with me for a long time. And it was my turn to have my way with it. And I was able to do that. And by example, you know, and given the freedom to do it, there's, you know, the permission. to be in that space and allow it to happen. And it's a safe place, but it's also a place where the monsters need to come out. And they did for me. But, you know, and it's not that the monsters disappeared completely. The way I like to put it these days is that it's no longer riding in the front seat with me anymore. It's kind of like occasionally I'll drive by and it's, I drive by and it's waiting on the side of the road and we wave at each other. It just doesn't have the same claim it once had upon my life. It's not, not a governing presence in my life anymore. So that in and of itself, I mean, that I've said a lot of things about how, how life changing this was. And there were many things that happened to me there, but, and, and that one is probably the, the biggest one, I think, because I really felt different and changed after that. I really did. Brian Mueller 12:52 Yeah. Now let's, let's go back to, uh, before you, you, uh, made the decision to participate in the rites. What circumstances kind of led you to the decision? Maybe what was going Ramiro de la Garza 13:05 on in your life at that time? Well, um, so I mentioned that I'd gotten sober about, it's been about six and a half years now and about two years into being sober. Uh, you know, the, the language recovery was kind of drying up for me a little bit it was getting repetitive and rote and um I was just I was tired and um I needed more and um a good buddy of mine that had gotten sober two years prior to me had had introduced me to a book called falling upward and in the first six to seven months of my sobriety I read all the a literature but as a book too. And what I found was that it really galvanized my sobriety for one, but it reintroduced me to my faith in a way that I'd never seen before. So I went back to that book. I took it off the shelf and I started reading it again after two years. And then I started reading everything by Richard Rohr. I just went crazy and read anything and everything I'd get my hands on. And the one in publications I read all those and I just really went deep because again this this this feeling of um of someone saying something out loud that you know is true but you've never been able to put words to it that started to happen a lot with what I was reading and I don't know how it happened but I think I just stumbled upon something about the concept of the hero's journey or the journey of hero or uh the path of descent or something like that and I stumbled into a lumen and then I saw video I saw a short video I didn't read I didn't listen to the whole thing but I saw a video about of him talking about the hero's journey and I was like man that's cool and uh so I just stumbled into it really but I was looking for I was looking for more and um that's how, that's how our, that's how the paths intersected. Um, and I'm sure it's not exclusive to me, but, you know, a lot of us ran into him first before we got here. Um, and, uh, so yeah, I mean, that's another reason why I'm, why I'm sitting here with you, um, and talking about this. Brian Mueller 15:36 So you made the decision to attend the rites and then you had to tell, uh, your, your wife and your, uh, your family members, you may even share this with friends or members of your community in AA, what was their reaction when you told them you were going to a men's rites of passage? Ramiro de la Garza 15:50 Well, they, they knew just as little as I did. So there was nothing really to say other than I was going out over there and I'd be gone. Uh, so there wasn't really much to really describe other than I, you know, I'm going on this men's retreat really is the way I put it because the subject matter, even reading it even if you don't know what it's really about uh you know I just don't think that people like my encounter with this wasn't exact wasn't accidental I was looking for something and I think that men when men that are looking for something like the way we look for something will end up looking at finding this I just I just believe that it's for men that that are that are searching for something more on a spiritual level um and I couldn't talk about all these things with my wife and my children or people at work and for the most part people in aa either not at this way not in this particular manner uh with the constellation of subjects that we that we cover and it's a different world um it's not how do I put this it's a it's multifaceted and beautiful and we can translate it into real life um using you know common language I guess it to a degree but I've been trying to get my brothers to do this since I did it and they won't do it and they ask me why and I can't for the life of me describe why they should because it's so deep it's so deeply personal um my reasons will be completely different you know it's um it's strange that way. Brian Mueller 17:45 It seems to me like you're saying that uh when you told people you're going to the rites there was really just not much of reaction and so my thought is maybe uh my first was going to ask did you feel supported in your decision to go, but it sounds to me almost like you didn't feel support. You didn't feel any push against, but you had an internal resolve. Is that right? Ramiro de la Garza 18:06 Yes. Yes, very much so. Uh, my wife just kind of put it into the, uh, the kaleidoscope of recovery. So this is good for my husband. It'll be good for him spiritually. I'm glad he's doing it. Glad he's well, glad things are good. And you know, what's good for, for her is what's good for me, for my kids and, and, uh, and my sponsor, Renee was all about it. It was, yeah, that looks pretty cool. Go check it out. So yeah, that's kind of how it went. Yeah. Brian Mueller 18:34 Leading up to the rites. So just in the immediate days before, even up to the moment that you entered Pilgrim Park for the rites, were you holding something that you were hoping for to get out of the rites or was there even something that you were fearing as you entered the rites or both? Ramiro de la Garza 18:50 I resolved to just allow myself to be surprised. I came in with a, with a, with an open heart. Um, I just said, let's see what happens. And I, I really didn't know any, I didn't know much other than what I had read and what I had listened to. Um, but I can, I can tell you that what I read and I listened to did not exactly really translate to what, what I went through. Maybe some of it did, but I was surprised. I was taken I was ambushed by this thing you know I was totally ambushed by it that divine ambush that we hear all the time that experience is full of that you know from the very first moment it starts and even the drive out there when I was driving on my own and trying to think about I wonder I wonder I wonder I wonder what's going to happen what is this I mean I don't know how many men are going to be there am I going to like all these guys you know all those that all those things that we that men and people in general talk to themselves about when they're entering into something new um so all of that was there um so yeah I mean just your typical struggle with entering into something unknown good and butterflies Brian Mueller 20:20 So you know it's a big it's a long experience it's uh parts of five days four nights uh you've gone into some detail about that experience and how you know it was a deepening experience I like the language used about sort of the undulating this sort of waves and these waves taking you deeper and deeper but you get to the end you finally get to the end of the rites there's closing ritual it's time to say goodbye you know you drove down alone so you get back in your car and you got to go back to Chicago. You've got a couple hours to drive or so. What, how, what was that moment like? What was it like as you were leaving Pilgrim Park? Ramiro de la Garza 20:50 I would say the, um, the day, not the last day, but the day prior, I noticed another man, I think it was happening to them as well, because I think I talked to this. I talked about this with some of the other men there that there was this little bit of, um little sadness creeping in through the back door because we knew that it was coming to an end so it was so beautiful and so incredibly foundational and eye-opening and inspiring and but I didn't want it to stop and when I when I knew that it was going to stop soon and that this thing was going to close out this thing was going to have a final chapter um there was sadness not a bittersweet kind of sadness um and uh you know that lasted that when it started it lasted all the way to the end and I was really sad to leave uh there I did have some tears in the car on the way home but not bad tears like really restorative a really restorative cry the kind of where it just keeps coming it just keeps coming I tried to turn on the radio and I shut it off I could not listen to anything uh I was just captivated like it felt like I was spread all over the place in that car and I was lost in myself and spread all over the place at the same time I was just completely scattered um and I was it had its way with me in the best way possible it broke me in the best way possible it was it was just love man it was really a deep feeling of love in my heart um that I left with that that you just can't manufacture it just happens to you it's done unto you and it was done unto me and when I left there I was I was I don't know how else to put it but broken in the best possible way I was just a brand new man so yeah. Brian Mueller 23:10 It touches me you know how um how profoundly you speak about the your experience and you know in in in a uh in a welcoming way in a positive way. I mean, you really opened yourself up for this event. You know, it's hard. Some guys are better at that than others. You know, was there a time when you realized an even deeper impact to the event? Cause I would say that you're someone that was really aware of things as it was happening in the moment, but how was it two weeks after three weeks after, you know? Ramiro de la Garza 23:38 Well, um, I, I do remember getting home and just going and hugging my wife. I made a straight line to her and uh and then and then I just kind of rolled into life again it was a very a mysterious thing having had that experience and then just coming back into the regular flow of life what I will say is um is that while that was happening uh I was observing myself doing all of that but something happened to me out there that maybe unlocked the feature of the mind or the heart that allows you to be more um more aware of yourself maybe and I'm still unpacking that today the this experience still resonates today uh if I could pack up my bags and just go live there right now I would go live there right now and I would just be there you know of course I can't do that but everywhere I go it's with me everywhere I go and whatever I'm feeling or experiencing I have noticed that I can be more present with people. I can listen to people. Instead of waiting for them to stop talking, which is what a lot of people do, I think, including myself, not all the time, but I can listen much better today. And it was amazing how much I know that I missed when I wasn't doing that. And I think that's something that the experience at the MROB kind of gave me and continues to give me is the ability to stop and really look at someone while they're making eye contact with someone while they're talking to me and giving them myself. the way all the men gave to me when I was at the emerald is to is to be able to be present to another person there's no greater gift that you can give to another person than your time and attention you know and not the kind that's snapping your fingers and helping them finish their sentences the kind that actually receives the other person and I think it's helped me a lot in my family life and in my professional life. It makes a big difference. It does. It's improved my relationships with people. But this is a slow trickle. It's not something that just shows up. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's changing me still. And every once in a while when I'm on the way home or I'm driving, I get the same experience that I had when I left VMROP. you know I feel like I'm spread all over the road and um and I'm and I'm oh and I'm with myself at the same time everywhere and here at the same time um and fear has no foundations in my life when I'm when I have that experience it's gone I'm out of the way like I'm not worried about anything not angry about anything I am at peace and um I know it's real because it happened to me out there it's one that when these things happen to you and you experience them and you know they're real then then you know it'll happen to you again if you if you have the disposition to allow it to happen and that's the one of the biggest gifts now that I know that that I've taken from that experience is that um I know it'll happen again so even when I'm having a when I'm in a dark point where I have a little melancholy, I know it will last long. It's temporary. Nothing is, nothing is like permanent, but there is some level of permanence to some things. I don't know. I'm getting lost in my, in my thoughts here. That's good. Brian Mueller 28:00 You know, my, usually at this part of the interview, I ask, uh, about how the conversations in your life shifted and you've already said, I mean, one of the things is you're a better listener. That's an aspect of conversations. But what I really want to know is what did you tell your wife? What did you tell your sponsor after the rites having gone through it? Now that you know something, what did you bring back to them for them? Ramiro de la Garza 28:20 Initially, not much. Um, I think that, um, one, I was told still shocked and I, I was both sad and both glad to be back in society again. And I made a conscious effort to not overwhelm anyone with what I had experienced. Maybe that was selfish of me. But at the same time, I knew that if I tried to, it wouldn't work. And that was frustrating. Because you know how when you're a kid and you go outside and you find this beautiful grasshopper or something like that, and you want to run inside and say, look what I found. Look what I found. It's so beautiful. You want to show everybody. But you can't do that because it might freak someone out. Nope. You know, some people get freaked out by the weird grasshopper. So this is, it's a big, it's a big, huge thing. And you can't just go dumping it on people and suspecting things. You can't just do that. Um, the ambush is not for everyone. Um, and I, I couldn't, I couldn't spring it on people. What I try to do is I try just to talk about some things without having to say that I took it from out there. It's translated into aspects of my life without having to explain where it comes from. Does that make sense? Brian Mueller 29:42 No, absolutely. I love what you said there. You know, not everybody is prepared for an ambush and you don't want to do that. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You know, it's obvious that the rites had a big impact on you and your life. How has it impacted your understanding of masculinity, initiation, even the purpose of a man, a man's life changed since then? Ramiro de la Garza 30:07 That's big, you know, um, for a long time, God and my dad were competing for number one asshole in my life. You know, and I think that, I think I actually, that's, that attitude was still kind of inside of me when I got to the MROB a little bit. And it's part of what I had to let go and had to battle with when I was there. I didn't know that I was going to have that opportunity, but when it presented itself, I knew that it was going to be time for me to let it go finally. And, you know, men don't like to talk about their feelings. you know I was raised in a speak when spoken to environment that that words were sacred and you were not to waste them but usually with that and that's true right but usually what that translated to is you know please shut up don't talk sit in your you know it's like um the masculinity was more the tough guy than the tough guy that has a soft heart you know a tough man wasn't supposed to have uh soft edges hard edges were preferred you know and only on very rare occasions would you shed a tear and it better be because somebody died you know not because maybe you're having a hard time with something or you need to dig deep and share with somebody um it what it did for me in terms of the masculine uh idea or energy is that is that um real men uh know the difference between anger and sorrow and they know that most men aren't really angry they're just sad and disappointed about what well I think we could find a lot of common ground about the things we're sad and disappointed about it's mostly about the things we did and failed to do and I'm no exception and if I and being out there with those men I could tell that they were battling with most of the same things I was battling with in their own way but that deep commonality of like I'm not alone I'm traveling with every other man in this world and we're all kind of tugging at this thing at this inner part of ourselves and uh to be able to share that and actually talk about it out loud I keep going back to this this notion of hearing the things that are in my mind and in my heart out loud being said out loud by other men and knowing they've been true for a long time but never finding the words totally changed my life and you know I really don't know to be honest with you what are what real masculinity or real a real man is um I'm just I'm trying I'm trying to be better I'm trying to be more connected uh every day I - I'm thinking I fail my kids I'm not doing the right I'm not doing good enough for them or if I could have done this could have done that what I'm discovering is that most fathers feel that and experience that um and the fact that I'm able to say this out loud to you right here right now is helping me know that I'm being a good dad there's something about saying these things out loud and sharing them with another human being that don't that that cuts the burden out it eliminates that perniciousness of it softens the edges of the man and, and somehow makes them whole. And for me, that's what, what MROP has kind of helped me do. And it still helps me to do. Um, that's why I haven't strayed too far. I've stayed, I've stayed close, close enough to still feel it. Brian Mueller 34:16 That's wonderful. Thank you for that. Brother, I just have really one more question for you. And that's what counsel would you offer to a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in a rites of passage. Ramiro de la Garza 34:24 Let it have its way with you. And there's a reason why you ended up stumbling upon this, whatever it might be. It's not an accident. If it's drawing upon your heart strings in any kind of way, that means you're meant to do it. And it's really not complicated. If you see it and you keep on going back to it, something inside of you is drawing to it. and it's likely that voice inside that's trying to tell you, yes, listen to that voice, follow that voice, and we'll find out. Brian Mueller 35:10 Thank you, brother. Really, I want to thank you deeply for your honesty, your courage, and giving us a window into your own experience at the Rites of Passage. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir. I'll see you at the Rites in August. Love you too, brother. Talk to you later. For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico in 1996. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since 2012, Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in 2026. The first is in Northern California, May 13th through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22nd through the 26th. And in Illinois, August 12th through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16th through the 20th. And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September 30th through October 4th. You can find details and registration information at Illuman.org slash mrop or Illuman.org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November 5th through the 8th in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman.org slash awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. download the practicing presence app for free at choosingpresence.org slash app it's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today thank you for listening to follow me to the mrop until next time brothers stay present Thank you.