Brian Mueller
00:03
Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org. Now, the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today, we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Bill Prindle. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story.

Bill Prindle
01:32
It's great to be here. I'm pumped.

Brian Mueller
01:35
Bill, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.

Bill Prindle
01:38
Well, I was born in New Hampshire and grew up in Connecticut, went to school around Philadelphia. Now I've lived in Washington for many years, and now I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. So I've been creeping south for 75 years.

Brian Mueller
01:51
What do you do these days to keep busy?

Bill Prindle
01:53
I have a little bit of consulting work in my clean energy and climate change work, but mostly I volunteer. I work in the writing space. I do a lot of poetry, participate in that world. I am active in Illuman, also been active in another men's organization, the Mankind Project. And I volunteer in hospice. so that keeps me busy. Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a

Brian Mueller
02:30
unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. When and where did you make your rites?

Bill Prindle
02:44
I came late to the MROP. I took the MROP in September 2024 at Shrine Mont in the Shenandoah

Brian Mueller
02:56
Valley here in the western side of Virginia. And who was the weaver at your rites? About

Bill Prindle
03:01
how many men would you say were there? We had about 60 men and the weaver was

Brian Mueller
03:07
Ned Abenroth. Now, when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that

Bill Prindle
03:13
comes to you oh um that I was being welcomed into a different way of being a man and being among men that was apparent from when I first arrived the different energy and there was also a kind of a mystery to it like well what's going to happen here and I could tell something was something was awaiting me, but I didn't know what.

Brian Mueller
03:48
Now, generally, how was that weekend for you?

Bill Prindle
03:53
Oh, deeply moving. You know, I was asked, you know, why am I here? And in my case, the statement that came to me was, I'm here to make peace with my anger, Which, you know, I was reluctantly having to admit that even after doing a lot of men's work, I still had anger issues that I had not worked through. And so that was a core of what I experienced on the weekend.

Brian Mueller
04:27
Now, without sharing anything you'd consider confidential or too personal, tell us a story or tell us about some of the elements of the one of the elements for the rites that really stood out for you.

Bill Prindle
04:36
Hmm. Well, let's see. We had a lot of opportunity on the weekend to be with men and then to be with ourselves in natural settings. And that was really helpful to me because there's power in numbers, there's power in circles, but there's also power in solitude and in nature. And so one of my nature walks really helped me process anger in a way that I was able to get to grief. And I was, basically it was September and some of the leaves were starting to fall. and I was just watching this, I think it was a beech tree, slowly shedding its leaves. And there was something inherently sad about watching leaves. Oh, this is like a death. But it was so gentle. I don't know, I just, I started to experience grief in a different way and I realized that underneath my anger was a well of grief. That, yeah, anger feels like a real emotion, but for me it's more like a gateway to something else. And the MROP helped me see that, like, oh, this is really just a wake-up. It's like, you need to go somewhere else. So I was able to go into grief. And also, because it was a men's focused weekend, I started feeling into my ancestor grief, my father and my grandfather. And, you know, there's some trauma stories there. And that really was helpful. Like, yeah, my grief is not just my personal stuff. There's stuff I've inherited. There's stuff that's in the field of my family. There's stuff that's in the field of my culture. And that was really helpful. Not like I never get upset anymore, but I have different tools for dealing with myself when I'm starting to get outraged or annoyed about something.

Brian Mueller
07:11
Now, was there one part of the rites that, or one day, one aspect of the rites, one interaction with somebody that really impacted you most strongly?

Bill Prindle
07:22
Yeah, I was really surprised by this one interaction. There was a man at my rites who I judged to be, what's the word, morbidly overweight. And I thought, hmm. You know, I immediately noticed like, yeah, that's just a judgment. You don't know this guy at all. And so because of the way the rites, there's a lot of men, you know, walking, talking, eating. I just found myself walking with this man and just chatting with him and learned things about him that gave me a whole different take on this man's life and what he'd been through and why his body is the way it is. And then, uh, uh, without divulging too much, I just found myself connecting with him in our closing ritual. That was just like, uh, whatever powers that be set this up because I was meant to meet this man and, um, be confronted with my judgments and come to see, uh, Oh, a whole other person, you know, behind those judgments. And so that was, that was such a, a gift, you know, it's really helped me get past my, my tendency to, you know, make those snap judgments about people. Oh, good, bad, you know, this, that is behind all of our judgments. There's generally a really interesting human being to be discovered.

Brian Mueller
09:05
That's beautiful. Let's, uh, let's step back a little bit and I'd like to ask you, you know, what circumstances are maybe better put, um, what was going on in your life that led you to the rites at that moment?

Bill Prindle
09:21
Yeah, I had known about Illuman and its predecessor for almost 15 years. I took a retreat with the Center for Action and Contemplation in 2010. It was led by Richard Rohr and the peace activist Joanna Macy, and that was really powerful. And after one session, there were some men standing around talking about these men's rites. And I thought, oh, what's that? And I had already been doing men's work, so I didn't feel like I had to jump on that right away. But I did get on the mailing list. And I've been following the emails for a long time. And finally, in 2024, I began to notice my anger coming out in ways that was really kind of shocking to me. And without going into a whole story, I just, I began to realize that when I would get anxious about losing control, about things not going the way I had planned, this had to do with actually with a GPS snafu. and there was nothing earth shattering about it. And I just, I lost my temper. And my wife was like, I need to get out of the car if you're going to be this way. And I just, you know, it was one of those, okay, uh, you better, better deal with this. Uh, cause it's, it was so discordant with the way I was seeing myself. I was becoming an elder. I was 74 years old. I shouldn't be still so grumpy. So it was that, um, that incident that really told me, yeah, they have more work to do. And I also noticed at that, in contemplating that whole thing, it was about control. It was about losing control. And, you know, my anxiety level goes up when I feel like I'm not in control. And I'm to find out that's true for a lot of people. Uh, so yeah, I, um, I've been able to work with that whole set of feelings and, uh, mental dynamics. Let's just say since then, um, still, you know, I still have my moments, but, uh, I feel like I have better tools now.

Brian Mueller
11:48
You know, when you made the decision to attend the rites and you started informing your, your wife, uh, other family members, your friends, what was their response?

Bill Prindle
11:59
Well my wife has been really supportive of my men's work and she had been she had been a witness to my outburst and she thought okay great if you're going to work on that I'm all in and so um it um it was a pretty supportive environment for me I didn't feel like I had to sneak off or, and I, you know, I, I had a men's group I was in already and, you know, I just told them, oh, I'm doing this other workshop. And they went, great, let's know how it goes. So I had a pretty supportive base there. As you go into the rites, uh, obviously a lot of emotions and things are swirling through your head.

Brian Mueller
12:42
Was there something though, as you stepped into Shrine Mott and began, you know, first entered the rites that you were hoping for, or was there something that was you were particularly fearful about?

Bill Prindle
12:55
Hmm. I wasn't all that fearful. I'd done some men's initiation work in the past. And, uh, you know, many of the ritual elements felt familiar to me. Like, oh, this, yeah, I, I, I know this. Um, so I felt maybe a little more, uh, familiar with some of the, some of the ways that that work is done. And it was more like, um, oh, I'm getting another bite at this, you know, bring it on. Uh, let's see what, let's see what's here.

Brian Mueller
13:38
And when you left the rites, you know, at four or five days later, uh, after completing the rites and you, you drove away. How were you feeling at that moment? Oh, uh, I was, uh,

Bill Prindle
13:50
I was floating. Uh, you know, I just, uh, I, I, I felt like, oh yeah, this is a, this is a well, this work is a well that we can go back to. And it's not like you do one rites or one group meeting and it's all done it's a well of connection and deep deeper energies you know I've um if anything um I'm a Jungian anymore and you know the world is about archetypes and these core energies that exist in the human and the human psyche the work that Illuman does is good at calling forth those energies like warrior energy to get things done or shaman energy to do healing or transformation or king energy to do blessings and all that kind of lover energy to write poetry. I just, I was really feeling those deeper currents. And man, that is, when I can get in touch with that kind of stuff, I just feel like, oh, I'm not, I'm not alone in this world. There are other men, other men, and there are other, there are other forces in the world that, that'll support me. It'll support anybody who's willing to look for them.

Brian Mueller
15:33
Post-rites, did any of the conversations that you had with your wife, with the men in your, the men, other men in your men's group or about the rites or even about other things, did those conversations change at all?

Bill Prindle
15:48
Not, not dramatically. I think my, my wife was really glad, uh, that I'd done it and that I'd made the commitment to work on my anger. And, um, I think she feels just safer, uh, in that sense. I'm doing my work and yeah, I have stuff, but, um, but I'm, uh, taking it seriously and I'm working on it. And, uh, that's pretty much, that's the best that any human being can, can be asked to do.

Brian Mueller
16:29
Since making your rites, has anything changed noticeably in a practical sense, relationally, spiritually in your life? Have you noticed anything there?

Bill Prindle
16:42
Well, I did go on to do the elders' rites in 2025. And that felt like a next step for me because I did turn 75 last year. And, you know, it was pretty apparent that that was a path that I wanted to follow. You know, Richard Gore talks about the second half of life. When I turned 75, I was like, no, this is the fourth quarter. You know, I was like, I used to play football. So, okay, fourth quarter, we're a little behind. We really got to, you know, step it up a notch. So, yeah, I found myself drawn towards the elder pathway. And in that respect, I really got in touch with letting go of identity and belief and kind of the story I tell myself. I'm this way, I'm that way, I'm this kind of a man. I live in this kind of a country. And the question then became, well, what remains? What's left when my beliefs and my identities have kind of been loosened up or removed? And given all the chaos that's floating around in our nation and maybe in other nations too, it was really helpful for me because there's a pull to kind of engage in the this side versus that side, you know, the us versus them, the polarization that we feel. And I've been, to some extent, able to take a kind of a third-way view of it, like being less drawn to take a side, you know, in the public sense. And more just like, well, what is mine to do? What can I offer to people? So for me, like hospice volunteer work is a perfect, like a symbol for that. You just show up at the bedside of somebody who's in need of companionship or massage or whatever, and you just be present with them. Right? I mean, one of the side gifts that came out of the rites was this presence practice that a man associated with the loom and offers, where, you know, it's just about becoming present without a whole fixed set of ideas or, you know, we got to do this or we got to do that. It's just showing up and being present. And that's been, that's probably been the biggest lesson of my life the last two years. Like just become present, show up and let go of the other stuff and see what emerges. And gee, when I do that, things go pretty well. It's my experience.

Brian Mueller
20:23
And I know you've been involved with men's work for many, many years, and you've been involved in initiation many times, both formal and informal experiences, no doubt. But since your most recent rites, has your thoughts about masculinity and initiation shifted any?

Bill Prindle
20:44
A little. I would say my earlier ideas about initiation were, you know, were more tinged with like, this has to be like really disturbing. It has to be physically difficult or painful or, you know, I mean, if you look back at some initiation rituals in ancient times, there were some pretty grueling physical things that were put through. And maybe it's just that I'm more of an elder now, but I came to appreciate the way Illuman does initiation on a more spiritual level with some of the elements of discomfort, but more just focusing on the core, the core spiritual part of it. You know, that sometimes it doesn't take as much physical exertion as one might think. I mean, it's true. It's different for different people. But for me, I came to appreciate, oh, this had a lot of similarity to other initiations, but it was a little, little gentler here and there. Like, Oh yeah, things can, uh, things can shift without, um, having what's the word too giant of a crowbar. So what kind of a counselor advice would you offer to a man considering attending an MROP? Ask yourself, um, Who do I want to be and how do I want to be in this world? And keep a completely open mind with those questions. Because it's the need for certainty. It's the need to lock in the answer that, to me, creates a problem or another problem. Like when I was younger, I would latch on to a book I'd read or a meditation method that I learned. And this is it. If I just do this and if everybody else just did this, we'd be fine. And over the years, like, well, yeah, that's not bad, but it's not the only or the full answer. Right. So I would just counsel men to just take that risk, just step into a place that is unknown and trust that you'll be met with much more support and many more gifts than you would have guessed.

Brian Mueller
23:51
I do have one more question. And it's because of your involvement with Mankind Project. And I want to make it clear that the mankind community and the Illuman community are very much fraternal communities. They're not competitive or serial. There's some overlap for sure. But because you have had experience in both, what kind of counsel or advice would you give to a man who has had experience with the Mankind Project and is curious about the Illuman men's rites of passage or is considering that?

Bill Prindle
24:20
Well, I would say if you've done the MKP work, you'll feel kind of at home because a lot of the work has similar dimensions. But I would say you'll be invited to bring your spirituality in a different way. MKP has its own way of dealing with that. But I just have appreciated the more spirituality-forward nature of the Illuman work. You know, I do think there are some cross, what's the word, some cross-feeds that could benefit both organizations. But I've just come to appreciate the more, and I will say in the same breath, it's not a specific spirituality. Richard Rohr has a Christian Franciscan background, but I have never felt like I'm in a, you know, I spent 40 some years in Christian congregations, but with Illuman, I've never felt like I have to, you know, accept a creed or certain beliefs or anything like that. It's very inclusive, which I think is really important because men come from all kinds of faith and from no faith as well. And I'll just say, living in the Charlottesville, Virginia area, I've gotten to know the work of Thomas Jefferson a bit. And before he got into the whole national scene and was president, he was active in the Virginia House of Burgesses. And before the U.S. Constitution was formed, he helped push through a religious liberties bill in the Virginia House of Burgesses in the 1780s. And he wrote about it to a friend saying why he did it. And he said, it is meant to embrace the Jew and the Gentile, the Mohammedan and the Hindu, and the infidel of every variety. And I thought, wow, in the 18th century, for a guy who grew up in a theocratic, you know, Church of England state, that is pretty radical. So I sort of think of Illuman in those terms that it's got that kind of Jeffersonian inclusivity of spiritual beliefs or none.

Brian Mueller
27:02
Well, thank you deeply. Really appreciate your honesty, courage, and you're giving us a window into your experience and both at the MROP and beyond. So thank you so much, Bill.

Bill Prindle
27:13
Oh, my pleasure. Really enjoyed it, Brian.

Brian Mueller
27:16
For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico in 1996. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since 2012, Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in 2026. The first is in Northern California, May 13th through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22nd through the 26th. And in Illinois, August 12th through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16th through the 20th. And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September 30th through October 4th. You can find details and registration information at Illuman.org slash MROP or Illuman.org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November 5th through the 8th in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman.org slash Awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at ChoosingPresence.org slash app. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to Follow Me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present.