Brian Mueller 00:03 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org. Now, the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today, we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Elias Kruger. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. Elias Kruger 01:32 Yeah, glad to be here. I'm excited to talk about this. Brian Mueller 01:36 Elias, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. Elias Kruger 01:40 Boy, I call Atlanta, Georgia, really, Acworth, in the Atlanta area home. I spend my time really busy consulting full time and have three kids and a niece that lives with us and my wife and a Husky. So between work and that, I'm pretty busy. So that's life right now. Brian Mueller 02:07 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MRLP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the beginning. When and where did you make your rites? Elias Kruger 02:24 Yeah. I did mine in 2022 in Texas, I believe was in the fall of October. But yes, it was they didn't have anything close by. The closest was Texas at that year. And so that's where I did it. Yep. Brian Mueller 02:43 Do you recall who your weaver was and about how many men were there? Elias Kruger 02:48 Oh, man. I think it was Jim. I can't remember his last name. Brian Mueller 02:52 Was it Jim Taylor? Elias Kruger 02:54 Jim Taylor. Yes, I believe so. Yes. And there were about, I think, a total of 80, 40 doing the riots and then another 40 with us. Brian Mueller 03:07 Supporting the riots. Yeah. When you think back to that weekend, what's the first image that comes to your mind? Elias Kruger 03:17 Um boy it was a, it was a beautiful place and it had a river that we could walk to and I just remember spending a good amount of time sitting by this beautiful tree and listening to the rushes of the water and just it's like time stood still. It was really kind of an amazing, you know, life-changing experience just being there and I was doing one of the exercises. But yeah, that always comes back to mind, both being with the tree that was so strong, kind of holding me, and then the sound of the energy of the water, it just really did something to me. Brian Mueller 04:05 If I'm correct, I think you were at John Knox Ranch, which is kind of- Elias Kruger 04:09 That is correct, John Knox Ranch. Brian Mueller 04:11 And it sounds like it was probably a beautiful time of the year to be there. Maybe not too hot, but still very mild. Elias Kruger 04:17 Yes, exactly. Yes, it was not too hot, not too cold. It was a really good time. Brian Mueller 04:24 Generally, how was the weekend for you? Elias Kruger 04:29 You know, it was, I was, by then I had been to a lot of councils. So I kind of, you know, I started doing council with a woman in 2020. So things weren't completely new to me and I'd had kind of similar retreat experiences. But even so, with a group of a lot of men that I did not know, especially with my small group, I think at first it was, um, it was a little tentative, just kind of didn't know what to expect. Um, and you know, you get with this group and, um, you know, there's always this thought, oh, I don't fit in or, or this is not, you know, how's this gonna go? And, and, you know, I had a lot of questions and a lot of, uh, doubts. Um, but at the same time, kind of knew deep inside that I needed to be there. Um, so that's really kind of how I felt at least in the beginning, um, going through a lot of those emotions. Brian Mueller 05:35 Now, without sharing anything that you'd consider too personal or even confidential, tell us about some of the elements of the rites that really stood out for you. Elias Kruger 05:44 Um, I, let me see. I think, gosh, there was really a lot of it. I think I'll say two things. The rituals really were impactful to me. And what I loved about it was that we were both, in some cases, witnesses and watching, in other cases, participants and actually enacting them. and so I do remember in the ritual that I was enacting just really having a deep experience and identification with what we were doing and yeah just feeling like it was touching areas of my soul that I you know didn't touch before so I really you know kind of liked and like is not like as in it was a positive experience or I was happy it's really maybe the best word is profound there is a depth to it that it may come out through emotion but it may not but there's definitely something going on so I think that was very impactful and then the other one that was kind of spending time alone in the woods that was part of you know part of the retreat and I don't think I've ever done that before for that amount of time and just again just really at first I'm like what am I gonna do for all this time and then just really kind of settling in and enjoying the experience I mean, especially nowadays that we're always so connected, there's always distraction, uh, to be in a place in the woods with no, you know, technological escapes. Uh, it's a gift that I think even more precious now than, than maybe a few years or decades ago. Brian Mueller 08:01 How was your interaction with the other men at the rites? Elias Kruger 08:04 Yeah, I really felt like we kind of, as we were going through this experience together, the bonding kind of happened, you know, very naturally. There was a lot of opportunities to get to know others, share your experience. There was kind of the small group settings where you could kind of go in deep and process your experience and hear others, how they were processing and, you know, going into things about your life and definitely a safe space. But then I really enjoyed the meals. The meals you would sit with different people, they usually would have a question that would kind of spark conversation. And I had like a lot of meaningful conversations at meals where, you know, there was no programming, but, you know, just being there and, you know, you could really sense a sense of camaraderie and also of kinship with these folks. And so, yeah, no, definitely remember, have sweet memories of those meals, especially. Brian Mueller 09:17 You already said that you really felt compelled on some level to go to the rites, but what were the circumstances surrounding your decision to go to the rites in 2022? Elias Kruger 09:29 Yeah, there was a number of things. I think I would say first it was just getting to know Illuman and going to council, but really looking for something deeper. In my case, I had come from a very religious, very devout Christian background. and was kind of walking away from that, but still wanted to look for very meaningful spiritual experiences and specifically looking for experiences that connected faith with nature, with body and mind. And, you know, all that I could sense that Illuman was the right place from early on, but I also knew that I needed to go. There was just a sense of, I don't want to say calling, but of yearning and of beckoning. And so, you know, to me, it was just a matter of time, of finding the right year and the right time. I kind of knew from the beginning that I would do it. And at that point, I was in my early 40s. It was a lot of transitions in my life. There wasn't any major event, but I thought it just, it was the right time. And, you know, things work out both in schedule finances and everything. And, you know, I had no doubt, again, that I would do it. But it just turned out to be that one. And it was a Texas one. And I'm just so glad that I did it then. Brian Mueller 11:12 When you made your decision to attend the rites and you told your, for instance, your spouse, your family, friends, any of your community members, how did they respond? Elias Kruger 11:22 Yeah, my wife had been 100% supportive. She could see the impact that Illuman meetings would have on me. I mean, the joke that we have, which is actually a joke, but it's true, is that whenever I would come out of council, at the end, I would go and hug her. So when I came to hug her, she's like, oh, you've just been to that meeting with Illuman. And all I could say is like, yeah, I just feel connected to myself. to you know especially to my heart and to my center of feeling and so uh she was very supportive I got to share with other men close um close man uh my dad my brother and then I had the council you know the group here in Atlanta so they knew that I was going um and so, yeah, also, again, very supportive. And kind of even though I wasn't going again with anybody I knew, I felt really supported from home when I left to go to Texas. Brian Mueller 12:29 Now, leading up to the rites, or even that moment when you first entered John Knox Ranch, was there anything that you were hoping for to get from the rites, or was there something that you were fearing as you entered the rites? Elias Kruger 12:44 Yeah, I was hoping to get, I'm not going to say like a big revelation or anything, but yeah, I was hoping to come back with new clarity and to new insight about, you know, who I was and my faith journey as an individual, as a man. You know, and really possibly even kind of to be able to dig deep into some of the wounds of, you know, the past. But that was, you know, in regards to fear, I don't know. Again, and it could be just because I felt, you know, very safe with, you know, folks that I met. And, and, you know, so that I didn't have, maybe the only fear is, is again, fear of myself of like missing it, of like getting on my way and we're, you know, going in too hard and missing something or going, not going hard enough and, you know, all kinds of stuff. So there's really more self-doubt than anything, nothing particular about the event itself that I was concerned. Brian Mueller 14:01 Now you're at the rites for four nights, parts of five days. And, you know, so it's a rather lengthy event on some level, but you do eventually come to the end and there's a closing. How did you feel as you departed John Knox and left? What was that experience like? Elias Kruger 14:16 Yeah, I really felt, how can I say, I'm not going to say the cliche, I was a new man, but I just felt that some keys have been unlocked inside of me. There was a lightness, you know, just feeling lighter. It was just a bit more clarity. a greater ease under my skin and being myself you know and just this this overwhelming piece of like you know things are going to be okay and um you know this this is life and also just I guess recognizing the power and the necessity of rites you know of these ritual and ceremonial spaces that helps us pass through thresholds. So I think that's the best I can describe it. I'm not sure if it's helpful, but that is really how I felt. Brian Mueller 15:25 Absolutely. So was there a moment when you began to realize the full impact of the rites on your psyche and your spiritual journey, or was it more of kind of a slow burn over time? Elias Kruger 15:35 You know, this is, I do remember this distinctively. I came back from the riots and I think, so this was Sunday. And then on Monday, I take my kids to school. I was working from home back then. And then I, on my way back, I would stop at a park to walk my dog. I would take the dog and then walk her. and I remember getting out of the car looking at the sky and this was early in the morning and I could see the moon like the moon was still out there because even though it was early morning you know at that side of the sky the moon was there and I just remember my eyes welling up with the presence of the moon and that sense of connectedness with you know everything and so to me that was very like I could sense okay this is definitely kind of the spillover of the rites and then I think there were some areas in which there was kind of more of a slow burn and maybe getting a rhythm around practices and obviously staying with council but that you know looking at the moon and just like weeping, weeping for no reason, except to just like sense the presence of that majestic celestial being. I don't know, that was a new experience. I never cried at the moon before. So that was interesting. Brian Mueller 17:18 Wonderful, yeah. So the conversations that you had with your wife, your dad, your brothers, others afterwards, how did those change? Elias Kruger 17:28 what did you tell them about the rites afterwards yeah I was really glad to kind of um I think with my wife we had a really good uh I think it was a morning you know the kids went to school I had a good like two or three hours straight she had some time in her calendar and uh I then her work was kind of slow with that so I was and it was just good to tell it was part processing and was able to tell any detail obviously respecting the stories of the other men uh not like sharing necessary details personal but definitely focusing on the impact on me and things that I have written in my journal uh I had uh I had breakfast with my parents talked to both of them about it uh talked to my brother um and I mean it was they could see in my that definitely something had happened and they had a lot of questions. In part, maybe I was hoping that my dad or my brother would catch the drift and maybe go, they haven't yet, but who knows, maybe they will one day. Because especially when you come back, you really become a bit of an evangelist and probably a little annoying. But, uh, um, you know, I, I, uh, that, that was, yeah, I wanted to talk and I, I, I feel like I talked to a few other men that either asked me or, you know, I wanted to tell everybody about it, but, uh, but yeah, no, it was, those, those are very good conversations, uh, that even though it was centered on my own experience, kind of open up for, uh, for the people that I was talking to about making them think about themselves and where they were. and about manhood and what is special about, especially a more masculine way of spirituality and all of that. So yeah, I mean, I have to say I had a lot of fruitful conversations afterwards. Brian Mueller 19:38 So what has changed? It's been about three years since you made your rites. And so practically, relationally, spiritually, what have you noticed has shifted for you? Elias Kruger 19:50 Yeah. Yeah, I feel there's definitely been a... So I hear the best way to describe it is this. When you have a line and you make a small change over time, that line goes very far apart, even with a small change. And I feel like it's been like that. It's been kind of one milestone in a journey of growth. Now, that doesn't mean that everything was hunky-dory or that I was in a progressive way to greater enlightenment. But there has been a trajectory of growth. of peace. And I'm telling you, I am, well, first, I definitely, now I'm considering coming back as, I guess how you call it, the returnees and actually go with some men and see them go through it. I would love to do that. And hopefully that will work out. But the other part that I, you know, just because I tend to think a lot in the future, I also consider the elders passage, you know, which I'm not there yet. Uh, I'm maybe 15 years away, but I'm already thinking about it. Like, like, oh, I, like, you know, I kind of look forward to, to, you know, I call myself an elder in training. Um, you know, and, and, uh, yeah. And that, that's been kind of, you know, that's been the change. I feel like it just gave me a grounding, gave me a community that I can tell us, look, this, this is a, uh, a community that I can grow old with. And, you know, I think my involvement will oscillate. There are years that I will do more, years I will do less. But there is this continuous relationships with different programs, different retreats, Awaken, I've been there. And of course, the Rites event that feel like will feed me through life through to this next, you know, decades. Brian Mueller 22:11 So did I hear you correct that this year you're considering joining a rites again in the initiator program and accompanying somebody to the rites? Elias Kruger 22:18 Yes, that is definitely, you know, and again, now this year is trying to figure out, you know, timing and all of that. But I, yeah, that is definitely something I'm considering if it doesn't happen this year, possibly, you know, next year. But yeah, I'd love to do that. Brian Mueller 22:35 Great. So how is your understanding of masculinity initiation or even just your own purpose in life shifted over this time? Elias Kruger 22:48 Yeah, masculinity is, I mean, the beauty of it is that there isn't one way to be masculine, but there is definitely something about it that I am learning to make peace with and to embrace it and to own it. And not in a chauvinistic or, you know, I'm better than other gender, whatever. But in a way that's like, this is who I am. I mean, I, these, you know, it's part of me as a part of my identity, I guess. And so I, it's been good to kind of embrace that and not just be afraid or, you know, ignorant or absent about it. That's been that. I think in regards to you said masculinity and what were the other things? Brian Mueller 23:46 Initiation. Elias Kruger 23:47 Initiation, yeah. I think initiation, I really believe that it is a lost art and it's something we need to find ways to reintroduce. And I look a lot at a young man today And at times I think, you know, are they ready for rites of passage? I know that there is kind of the younger ones. And, you know, I would, I really wish that for everybody, for every man, to have an experience, whether it is with the Illuman or others. But I think, I do think that that is important. And when I see the young man around me, I can see what the lack of life can create. I'm grateful to have gone through that, but also to stay in contact with other men that I can look back and look forward to. They can show me a future or they can remind me of my past or they can walk me when they're in the same phase as I am. And that's just a gift that I cannot find anywhere. So I'm grateful to be part of this community. And I think that that's what spirituality is about. It is, you know, how do you live a good life? I think as I grow more, that's becoming more the point. How do I live a good life, which is not just good for me, but good for others and for the more than human world. And how do I, you know, continue to grow in that? So that's, to me, that's what spirituality is now. Brian Mueller 25:37 I’ve got just one more question for you. And that's, what counsel would you offer to a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in the rites? Elias Kruger 25:45 Yeah, I mean, it's no, how can I say, It's no surprise that I would say definitely go. I think, but I also think timing is important. You know, I think if you have doubts, definitely it's good to talk to others. I don't see any reason why anybody shouldn't do it. The only thing would be, but I do believe somehow that some people are ready and some people are not. And the only person I can know is the individual. So in some ways, I think that needs to be discerned with that individual and people around them that love them. More around timing. Like I said, I feel like it's an experience that every man should go through. but timing is important and understanding the time to go is also important. So, yeah, I would say if you're considering, you know, and you feel this is the time, then, you know, go. And I would love for, this is maybe my wish, is that we as a community at Illuman can help. I understand that this is, it's a significant investment financial and enough time. And, and, uh, of course the time, there's nothing you can do about that, but that we can kind of help shoulders some of that. Um, but, but at the same time, it does have to have a cost and, and, you know, because anything that's worthwhile, it's going to cost the part, you know, have, have a cost. So, uh, I think that's the best way to think about it. Yes, there is, there's definitely a cost. There's usually a plane ticket and, and a price to go. Um, uh, I think it's definitely going to be the best few hundred dollars you're spending your life, but again, the timing is also important. Brian Mueller 27:49 Wonderful. Brother, I want to thank you sincerely for taking the time this evening, and I really want to thank your family. You know, you've taken time away from your family to record this conversation. So I really appreciate that and your honesty, your courage, and for giving us a window into your MRLP experience. Elias Kruger 28:03 Thank you, Brian. Awesome. Brian Mueller 28:05 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico in 1996. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since 2012, Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in 2026. The first is in Northern California, May 13th through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22nd through the 26th. And in Illinois, August 12th through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16th through the 20th. And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September 30th through October 4th. You can find details and registration information at alumen.org slash mrop or alumen.org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November 5th through the 8th in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman.org. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence.org slash app. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to Follow Me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present.