Brian Mueller 00:03 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org. Now, the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today, we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Bill Weber. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making time and for being willing to share your story. Bill Weber 01:32 Thanks, Brian. Looking forward to this. Brian Mueller 01:34 Bill, tell us where you're from and how you'd spend your time these days. Bill Weber 01:39 Right now, my feet are in Richmond, Virginia. I've been here since 2009, thanks to a corporate career that moved me around a lot and brought me here then. Retired 10 years ago. So I'm living into not retiring, but rewiring. I'm an Enneagram 3, so I've always been very active and looking to do stuff. So instead of being a corporate guy, now I get a chance to feed my soul by working with a lot of different local nonprofits and Illuman as well. Brian Mueller 02:11 Now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroad in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. When and where did you make your rites? Bill Weber 02:30 I made my rites back in 2011 in the Catskills in upstate New York. Frost Valley, I think was the name of the site. Brian Mueller 02:40 Well, when you think back to that weekend, what's the image? What's the story that comes to mind? Bill Weber 02:46 The story, if it was one word, would be connection. I had a hunger for attending it. I'd known Rich Revoir a long time, and I knew I was in the proverbial midlife stage because I knew there were some things unsettled in my life from a meaning, re-meaning, re-purposing. And I went there without knowing a lot of the men, but the drive was to reconnect with myself, And I remember being there, having some things open up by connecting with other men, especially in new ways, reconnecting with myself in new ways as well. Brian Mueller 03:31 Now, candidly speaking, how was the weekend experience like for you? Bill Weber 03:36 I went in with a little bit of trepidation, only in that I really didn't know anybody. I mean, I was going in blind. I knew I would love it because, again, I grew up in Cincinnati, so I was aware of Richard Gore for many years. And my own life, I was in my mid-40s when I wanted to go. But knowing that it was five days, it took me literally four or five years to make a five-day period available. So I was probably 44, 45 when I wanted to go, but I didn't end up going until I was 51. So I was going in anticipating and being okay with sort of being unsettled, but I was in a healthy frame of mind of just wanting to lean into it and see what it was about because I didn't know any of the details. Brian Mueller 04:26 Well, let's get into a couple more of the specifics, and I want to ask you who your weaver was and about how many men were at your rites. Bill Weber 04:34 My weaver was, thankfully, Joel Blunk. And Jim Taylor and others were there, but Joel was the lead weaver. And that was a blessing. What a beautiful man. Brian Mueller 04:46 And how many men? Bill Weber 04:48 I want to guess 40 to 50, something like that. Outside of, it was before they really did initiators in a big way, but obviously a lot more men joined towards the end of the weekend. Brian Mueller 05:01 So without assuring anything you'd consider confidential, was there a particular moment or several moments that really stood out to you? Bill Weber 05:10 Not one big bolt of lightning moment. I was going in not so much with trauma or anything that was like big to heal. I was going in to go deeper spiritually. So there were just a lot of little things through the weekend that hit me. Especially the simple thing like the rhythm of drumming, you know, as a way to come together and form the container of community. And I guess just that word container, every time we met as a big group through the weekend, that sense of vulnerability and transparency and alchemy that comes out in any good container was just something that kind of built through the weekend. And then the rituals, I'm a cradle Catholic, so I'm used to the idea of ritual trying to make grace corporal, try to make you actually feel the spirit. But what was done at the MROP was like a whole new level of ritual, of just bringing stuff to where you could feel whatever the theme was, whether it be joy or grief or search or vulnerability. So nothing in particular, everything collectively kind of built on each other for me. Brian Mueller 06:35 Now, you've already alluded to it some of, you know, the what led you to participate. But thinking back to that time, you know, what were the circumstances in your life immediately leading up to the rites? Bill Weber 06:46 I was at the proverbial midlife. Like I mentioned before, I had a corporate career. I was always involved spiritually from my early years, cradle Catholic, but influenced by the Jesuits as a teenager. I was on an active spiritual path. And then I got busy after college, going to work corporately and having a family. I was, you know, from 30 to 45 years old. I was working life or going in parallel. I did still go to church. I still did volunteer things where I could squeeze it in. But no doubt I was building, building, building both the family very happily and work. The proverbial, I got a vice president role in my corporate setting right at about 45 that I didn't think I'd ever make. And after I got it, I kind of realized it was kind of a lonely place to be. And there are parts of it I enjoyed, but then part of it was I just kind of realized, well, I'm here now. I'm quote unquote at the mountaintop, but it really doesn't feel, it feels like the air is kind of thin up here. I really couldn't like catch my breath. So then I realized, okay, you know, I got some of these spiritual roots that I've kind of let languish, um, because of the busyness of work and life, I need to, to pay back. I need to go back and, and dip in a little bit deeper here and see, um, what I may be missing. So I really was doing it from that seeking, uh, a reset from a spiritual point of view. And like I said, even though I had that commitment, it took me four to five years to make the time to actually follow through and, and make these five days that big a priority. So, uh, I'm not proud of wasting those five years, uh, finding time for five days. Brian Mueller 08:44 Well, in many ways, it sounds like the proverbial inflection point in a man's life, um, family career, and then what's more, right? Bill Weber 08:52 Absolutely. Absolutely. Brian Mueller 08:54 Leading it to the rites, was there something that you came into these rites hoping for, looking for, maybe even fearing might happen at the rites? Bill Weber 09:03 It's a great question. I would looking for, uh, like I said earlier was just seeking a deeper reset on, on meaning, um, in priorities and, and, and a conviction to follow through on it. because I knew I was sort of on this more mechanistic sort of track of a corporate career being too much of my life. From a fear, I wouldn't say a fear, probably wasn't until I actually got into it that some of that fear came up, like things started bubbling up. I'd be like, oh, I got a couple of the things I need to face here. So I wouldn't say that beforehand as much as during the rites itself. Brian Mueller 09:52 now right before the event obviously you had conversations with friends family members specifically your spouse and other people about going to the rites what was their reaction or Bill Weber 10:02 what were their thoughts about you doing this uh in my case they were supportive again uh I was surrounded I'm the youngest of eight kids and part of my spiritual journey is because some of my older brothers are spiritually active, you know, so, uh, and I had done many retreats with them at a local Jesuit retreat center. So again, a lot of support from, from family, uh, although I wasn't living anywhere near their home. So it's like, they didn't know the details, but they're all familiar with Richard Rohr. Uh, and my wife as well, uh, spiritually active. Uh, so she was supportive, uh, letting me know that five days away was a sacrifice for her to make to take care of the family without me around. So it wasn't, uh, oh, go away or glad you're going away, but it was like, you're going to owe me. I said, I know I'll, I'll pay you back. Don't worry. So think back to Brian Mueller 10:58 after the rites, you know, it's a, it's a big experience. It lasts several days. Uh, but there's a closing rites and there's the, the time, you know, that you spend transitioning back into your life. What was it like? What was that immediate aftermath like those, those hours, even days Bill Weber 11:14 afterwards? Uh, the hours afterwards still lingering with a lot of the questions and experiences that came up that, uh, were still gestating inside me. Um, because back then we didn't have as disciplined approach for follow-up counsel and follow-up contact with the men that you met over the weekend. I got to admit that I got sucked back into the activity of what was a very demanding corporate career and family life. But again, like little flashbacks or little things that would trigger, whether it was being in nature or being in a situation where I got a follow-up email from a man that was on the weekend or sometimes just the life experience that would trigger me back to something that had come up over the weekend that lit me. And I didn't do a whole lot. I think within the year after that, I met a couple other men through a local retreat center that had done the rites, and we collectively agreed to form a council. So that's been going on for, oh, almost 12 years now. And I didn't follow up. I mean, what would that have been? Three or four years later, Solarize, which is now Awaken, back in Albuquerque, when I was 55, I was able to convince my son, who was 25, to join me at Solarize. And so that was like my beyond local involvement with the council that we had formed. Being involved in Lumen back then, you know, in a national sort of setting, that was my only follow-up, but it was invaluable because my son also was no longer part of the Catholic Church, but spiritually active. and to be able to have him join me with him being 25 and me 55, that was as meaningful a weekend as the rites were for me going individually. Brian Mueller 13:34 In some ways, you've already described how the lasting impacts of this event was on you. But did you also have an immediate effect or was it really more of a slow burn? Bill Weber 13:45 For me, it was a both and. Intellectually, so, you know, if people talk about the two halves of the brain, if you talk about the left hand of the brain, the thinking part, that was the slow burn. It wasn't an aha, I'm going to suddenly, something suddenly made sense or something suddenly had me going in a new direction. But the right half for the brain, the one that is more about the body and emotions and heart, that changed in a more dramatic way. I was, uh, and that was a big deal for me because I am extremely cerebral and had become, uh, way too reliant on my, uh, thinking, thinking side, trying to get me into wisdom as opposed to my, uh, body and emotion and heart and, uh, feeling side, helping me do a better job of tapping into spirit. Brian Mueller 14:57 it. How did your conversations, how did your relationships, those same people that you told you were going to the rites and, you know, we're supporting you in that decision, but how, how did those relationships and conversations change afterwards? Uh, back to what I just mentioned, Bill Weber 15:13 I think I got much more comfortable, uh, relying on the left hand side of my brain. Um, much more comfortable being vulnerable, much more comfortable admitting I don't know, admitting I don't have an answer, and not just personally. In my case, and I was a corporate leader, it carried over into my professional life because as a leader, and I've always aspired to be a servant leader, literally coming out of college where I was toying with whether or not I would pursue something that was more social service oriented as a career as opposed to being an engineer but when I bought into being a leader and especially after the men's rite of passage I leaned in to being uh publicly vulnerable because I found it actually helped build the contain my earlier reference to a container you know for my team or for my organization of we're going to find an answer to the issues that come up don't look at me I don't have all the answers. And, and it actually, uh, helped my career because I got known as the unusual leader that was more of a servant leader. Uh, but I'm not trying to say it was all about my profession. I'm just saying it carried over to my entire life. Now it's been about a decade and a half since you Brian Mueller 16:41 did, uh, since you experienced the rites, what's changed in your life since then practically Bill Weber 16:46 relationally spiritually you got two hours for this um again having the blessings of uh getting some disasters in midlife uh before uh the men's rite of passage uh I had the first one of having cancer in my early 40s and being able to work through that the rites helped me put that into context. And then after that, a couple others between an unwanted divorce and that great job that I had getting kicked out after 34 and a half years with four days notice, dealing with those kind of sudden kicks in the gut that you get in life, the rites and learning the whole theme of the rites of being able to lean into suffering and realize that the same thing that is a crisis is also an opportunity. It's something that is a life lesson for me that I've been able to apply, not just with big events, but the little challenges that you get, whether it's a frustrating teenager or a difficult traffic situation or whatever it is, even those little things. It just, I have more equanimity now of just not getting derailed by the little life things that come up. But I also have found that I'm more whole and that I'm comfortable leaning in to the small pains and sufferings. And now, you know, I'm having the diminishments of not being able to do things physically that I could do 10 and 20 and 30 years ago. But I found being able to lean into that has, on the flip side, enabled me to lean into elements of joy more. So just enjoying little things like, you know, spring right now and just loving getting my hands in the dirt when things are coming out of the ground or even the winter, loving coming out of this period where everything is quiet, everything is seemingly dead, but just realizing it's a gestation period where things are going to come and you need to reset. But my point is I'm more alive now than I was prior to that. And that means being able to appreciate both the suffering and the joys Brian Mueller 19:21 that are there each and every day. How has your understanding of masculinity, initiation and the male purpose shifted over this time? Um, again, for me, it's been more, uh, Bill Weber 19:34 gradual than, than a big shift because, um, the way I was raised, I was comfortable with realizing you're not masculine or feminine. You know, both those are sort of descriptive of traits. And I had a rearing where I, for example, I have always been a big hugger, you know, and that really didn't change anywhere through the rites or whatever. But I found comfort leaning in and engaging others on that combination of both and, that there are, you know, a healthy masculine, sacred masculine persona is one that is seeking to be whole and appreciates that there are traditionally or sometimes stereotypically feminine qualities that are essential to tap into if you're actually going to get the whole experience that life and the spirit wants us to have. Brian Mueller 20:46 So, brother, I really appreciate your time. I have just one more question for you. Bill Weber 20:50 Yeah. Brian Mueller 20:50 What counsel would you offer a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in the rites? Bill Weber 20:56 Don't make the same mistake I made. If you get to the point of saying, yeah, I really need to do it, don't take five years to figure out how to make five days available um but even before that if you're not sure you want to do it I think uh because intentionally we don't go into all the details of what happens over the weekend because a you know what's that old phrase if uh if you haven't been there I can't describe it and if I describe I don't know the point is you-you can't appreciate it until you've done it. So if you have anxiousness or questions about it, just find a man that's been through it and have a heart-to-heart discussion with that man. And they may not get into the details, but they'll be able to help you understand that it is worth diving into the pool because it's not something you dip your toe in. You go plunge into that water, and when you come back up, you'll be glad you did. Brian Mueller 22:06 And where would a man go if he doesn't know anybody that's participated in the rites to engage one that has? Bill Weber 22:12 You can either go to the website, which is Illumana.org, or you can go to the community site, either one. And you'll reach out, and somebody will get back a hold of you. Brian Mueller 22:26 Well, thank you, brother. Really, thank you so much for your time. You and I share more in common than just this community. We're both from the same hometown, and we have a long familiarity with Richard and a deep trust in his teachings. And so, brother, thank you so much. I love you, and I appreciate your time and your commitment to this community. Bill Weber 22:46 Ryan, I love it. Thank you for giving me the honor to be able to share it some. Brian Mueller 22:51 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Fr. Richard Rohr and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico in 1996. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since 2012, Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in 2026. The first is in Northern California, May 13th through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22nd through the 26th. And in Illinois, August 12th through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16th through the 20th. And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales, are Spanish language rites, September 30th through October 4th. You can find details and registration information at Illuman.org slash MROP or Illuman.org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November 5th through the 8th in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman.org slash Awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence.org. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to Follow Me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present. Thank you.