Brian Mueller 00:03 Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org. Now, the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today, we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Mark Eggenschwiller. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making the time and for being willing to share your story. Mark Eggenschwiller 01:32 Good to be with you. Brian Mueller 01:34 Mark, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. Mark Eggenschwiller 01:38 I'm from Dayton, Ohio. I spend my time, of course, working. And I love outside. I love to hike. I love to fish. I love to play around in my garden. I love to kayak, and I really enjoy spending time with my beautiful wife, Kate. Brian Mueller 01:59 Let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. When and where did you make your rites? Mark Eggenschwiller 02:18 I made my rites a couple years ago at Aravaipa Canyon in Arizona. Brian Mueller 02:25 So that was 2024? Mark Eggenschwiller 02:28 2024. Brian Mueller 02:30 So when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes to mind? Mark Eggenschwiller 02:35 Oh, well, you were part of it. You were a greeter. I was walking up to the home where they were hosting us, and I looked at you, and something caught my eye. I looked up, and there was a hawk flying with a snake in its talons across the sky. And that was the beginning of a very powerful, mystical experience for me. I'm still trying to understand what the universe was saying to me when I saw that beautiful sight. But that was the first thing that hit me. Brian Mueller 03:15 That was quite amazing. Yeah, that image. So in general terms, what was the weekend like for you? Mark Eggenschwiller 03:21 Transformative. I would say life-changing in some ways. I got to a place of knowing and understanding in my inner self that I hadn't ever got to before. So it was very powerful. Brian Mueller 03:40 Who was the weaver or the primary guide for the rites and about how many women would you guess were at the rites? Mark Eggenschwiller 03:47 Giovanni, very passionate, really wonderful, warm, inviting presence. And what was your other question? I'm sorry. Brian Mueller 03:58 No, no. How many men do you think were there with you? Mark Eggenschwiller 04:01 Oh, 25 to 30? Brian Mueller 04:05 Now, without sharing anything that you'd consider confidential, were there any moments that really stood out to you? Mark Eggenschwiller 04:12 I don't remember what we called it, but when we did that walkthrough and we talked about our core wound, that really stands out. And then the time of solitude, that was really powerful. Brian Mueller 04:30 So that was the part of the rites that impacted you most strongly, probably. Mark Eggenschwiller 04:35 I would say, yeah, from a kind of an event status. I mean, looking back, one of the greatest privileges and most meaningful parts was sharing it with the other men in my council. Brian Mueller 04:49 I'm glad you mentioned that. I do think it's really important that this is a communal, a shared experience. So is there a particular interaction that you had with one other man or a group of men that kind of captures what the rites meant to you? Mark Eggenschwiller 05:03 Well, I think it's just integrally, you know, doing that with brothers. I mean, when we do the shadow work and we take those deep dives, we go to a place, our I did, that was, wow, how would I call it? It's a sacred space inside, very intimate, very vulnerable. It's this place where I'm exploring my finite, I guess Thomas Merton would call it. what my small self or my, I don't remember, just going there and just getting to know myself that way, it was just really powerful. So getting to do that with other men who were doing that, there was a common bond, there was a common stream that we were all drinking from. It was just a really profound, powerful, unifying, communal, intimate experience of exploring our wound together and supporting one another and being with one another. As you know, one of the things that many of us often struggle with is that sense of being alone, that sense of being not known, that fear of being irrelevant. So, you know, we carry that kind of awareness and in part identity into a setting like that. And we share that with other men. And it's a deep, deep bond that I still carry. And I'm so grateful to have had men to accompany me, beautiful men, open men, men from across the spectrum, age and profession and geography and spirituality. But there was just something very, very powerful and wonderful that was built there. Brian Mueller 07:30 Wow, that's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. really well said. Is there a man or a group of men that you keep in touch with from the Mark Eggenschwiller 07:37 rites experience? Not from that group. We tried for a few months after, maybe six months. But so no, I have seen a couple of the guys at, at the awaken. So, you know, it was always wonderful to bump back into them. But it didn't result in developing any more community than, Brian Mueller 08:05 you know, we really hit our apex at the MROP. So let's go back to what led you to participate in the rites. Were there any circumstances in your life at that time that kind of said, yes, this is the moment or this is why I want to do a rites at this time? Mark Eggenschwiller 08:19 Well, honestly, Brian, one of the things that led me to participate was that I didn't want to participate. So I don't know if you've ever been there, but sometimes when there's that thing you shrinking back from, it's, it's an indication that it's time to lean in. So there was that. And I knew there was, you know, in my, in my inner work, in my spiritual journey, I, there was a longing. And I sensed that this was a pretty clear milestone that was going to be on my path. Brian Mueller 08:57 Is there a particular, so was there something that you were hoping for to get from the riots or something that you were fearing as you headed into that experience? Mark Eggenschwiller 09:08 That's a great question. I think there were things that I was hoping for, But I don't remember if it was some of the discussion and dialogue and communication that came beforehand. But part of what I think made it a positive experience for me was to try and lay down an expectation that I had to go in and I had to have this really mind-bending experience. or that I had to try and make something happen or cure myself or stumble onto some kind of silver bullet that was going to lead me to some kind of awareness that I'd never been to before. So I think really for me leading up was to kind of assuage as much of that expectation and, of course, live with the uncertainty about what to expect because I knew that it was such a powerful experience for so many men. For some reason, it makes me think of the first time I went to the circus. And you hear people talk about going to the circus and the elephants and all of the activity, and you're just like, oh, my God, this is going to be amazing. I mean, it didn't disappoint when I went there. But I think it was that kind of level of expectation and leaning in that I wanted to try and maybe just tamp down a little bit because I wanted to come to whatever was going to come. I wanted to be open. I wanted to be available. But I didn't want to have an expectation or of the event or of myself to try and lean into and shape. So that's kind of how I went into it. Brian Mueller 11:10 Yeah, we should let the listeners know that this was not your introductory point to Illuman, that you had been involved for years coming to some of the national gatherings involved locally here in Ohio. So you had some context from experience and from knowing other men. Mark Eggenschwiller 11:24 Yes, for sure. And several of those men were there. So it was really wonderful to be in that big space with them. Brian Mueller 11:34 When the rites, you know, it's a four-night, five-day experience. You were at Aravaipa Canyon, which I always say is like one of the mecca places for a limit. Just a beautiful, beautiful area in which to hold the rites and to experience that. But when the event ended and you began your reentry into everyday life, how'd you feel? Mark Eggenschwiller 11:56 Well, again, I'm going to go back to some of the advice that I got that was super helpful. Because any other time I'd been through a multi-day immersive, very spiritual, very emotional experience like that, I always looked to try and process it. What am I going to say to somebody about what this meant? And the advice that was super helpful was try not to capture all that in your first six, seven, eight days after. There's so much that is bouncing around in your soul. It's going to take a little while for you to really process that, let the dust settle and understand what it was. So I think I was intentional about not trying to put words on it or to really assess. But I would say after that, you know, the thing that I carried most was that deep awareness that I gained about what my core wound was, which, you know, I don't mind sharing, was you're not enough, you must perform. So from, you know, processing things in my childhood and the imprints that I got from my father and from my early social development in junior high and high school and the peer groups that I was really trying to roll with and early romantic relationships and, you know, the very parts of my religious development. All of that brought me to be the man that I was when I walked in and the wound that I carried. And being really powerfully invited into that space to safely explore and understand it gave me a level of self-awareness that continues to be a deep part of what I carry and understand as my spiritual journey today. It really has, I would say, been contextualized. I think at some stage of my life, my wound really defined me. It was the lens that I looked through in the way I pursued my career and in the way that I I functioned in intimate relationships and in the way I kind of looked over my shoulder all the time about what I felt like I needed to do to be acceptable and to earn affection and to do all of that. So I think as I've grown into my higher self, my infinite self, my God self, some of the archetype that we really explored and tried to understand, I have found that that wound has helped me to really understand how major parts of my identity were formed. but I've also been able to also be so much more aware of the parts of me that are pure love that aren't defined by that wound. And so I would say it was definitely a fork in the road for me in Brian Mueller 15:24 terms of moving towards a more healing and whole self. Thank you so much for that. That's really great. Let's go, let's talk a little bit about the people in your life. So I want to know, And I'd like our listeners to hear, how did your family, friends and, you know, your community, the community around you respond to your decision to participate in a man's rites? Mark Eggenschwiller 15:43 Well, the people that don't know Illuman were like, you know, what are you doing? You know, are you going into some kind of cult and run around naked in the woods and paint yourself and cut yourself and take ayahuasca or whatever that stuff is? So, you know, there was a lot of mystique and mystery about it for many. For those who, you know, my brothers in Illuman, it was, you know, they were thrilled and very encouraging. It was, you know, it just brought some of the fundamental elements of our brotherhood really together with me. My wife was probably the most interesting one because she was aware of my work with Illuman, but there was always kind of a dynamic in my relationship with my wife because she has struggled with some physical symptoms that made her able to be less active. And I continue to be very active. We had, over the past years, have had these discussions about how we do life together. So when she saw me leaning into this really powerful thing that she didn't really understand because of the dynamics in our relationship, I think she was a little apprehensive about what I was getting into because she didn't understand it. And there was already kind of an ongoing dynamic of, you know, just wanting to try and map out what intimacy together looked like. We just, you know, in the past several years become empty nesters. So that was an interesting thing, but it was part of an overall development and evolution of our relationship. So it was, you know, across the board experiences with lots of different folks. Brian Mueller 17:35 Yeah. Did any of those conversations change after you participated in the rites or? Mark Eggenschwiller 17:40 Well, with my wife, it certainly, as she began to understand my shadow work, which she was well aware of, you know, we share our most intimate selves with one another. I think she saw what a great experience it was for me. But, you know, I will say this, Brian, I came into our marriage with some unhealthy dependencies. And I've heard a marriage counselor say that the thing that makes marriage successful isn't your ability to, it isn't your ability to just have these rousing advances in the quality of your relationship. but it's often more about what you do with the things that aren't going to change. So I think as we got to a place where there was a realization that, you know, I was going to continue to pursue this path and it was really good and healthy for me. And Kate began to see how positive it was. I think that she really became a fan. But the thing that was part of this was my own autonomy and my own independence and my own agency in the relationship that this was part of. So, again, it was part of the overall evolution of our relationship, but it was certainly a place where we both began to recognize the need for our autonomy, our agency, the value to the relationship for two independent, creative folks to really be intimate. So it's funny because, you know, we had this image that intimacy was you do everything together and maybe have unhealthy dependencies and you're triggered by each other's fear. And there were things, dynamics in our relationship that we didn't fully understand. So walking through this brought some of those to the fore, but they also, it also gave us clarity about some things we needed to develop into as a couple. So long answer there, but that's kind of how it panned out from that perspective. Brian Mueller 20:00 That's wonderful. No, I appreciate that. How has your understanding of masculinity, initiation, and sort of the male journey changed? Mark Eggenschwiller 20:09 Yeah, well, I kind of grew up with what maybe you'd call toxic masculinity. It was classic, me, Tarzan, you, Jane kind of thing. You know, not to be too crude, but the first time somebody got laid in high school, it was this, you know, epoch of, you know, that somebody had arrived at. So it was sexual conquest and physical dominance and certainly a lot of identifying. Part of what came into my religious faith was an us and them perspective. So there was a lot of what I would describe as toxic masculinity. And certainly one of the biggest beautiful things about my experience in Illuman has been to understand what it truly means to have intimate relationships with other men and what true masculinity means. I have three gay kids, and I have come to believe that my highest calling in life is love. And there's a lot about toxic masculinity that requires a man to be above and look down upon and to be stronger than. And I think true masculinity is certainly understanding and exploring what it means to be a man, but to couch that against this concept of love. And that's just where I kind of unpack things at. Brian Mueller 21:50 So I just have one more question for you, Mark, and that's what counsel would you offer a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in the rites this year? Mark Eggenschwiller 21:59 I go back to my first point was if you don't want to do it, then maybe you need to do it. Talk to other men who've been through it and understand their process, which I guess is part of the purpose of these podcasts. And, you know, have the courage to take a deep dive and look inside because no one is going to heal us from the outside. Our healing is going to come as we explore our pain and our wounds and our process is really about being willing to go there. And to be able to do that, to go there together with other safe men, I don't have any other—I have intimate friendships where I go that with individuals. But to do that with a group is, it's been really powerful and cathartic. And I would say definitely, if you don't have a level of community like that, that you experience, then that would be another one. You know, I mean, I think some of us are reluctant to go in and experience community for whatever reason. And so I would say, yeah, go for it, you know, and grow and confront the fears. I heard somebody say one time, there's two things you can do with fear. You can run towards it or you can run away from it. So run, baby, run, because it's good stuff out there. Brian Mueller 23:35 Brother, thank you. Really, truly. I love you, brother. And I really appreciate your honesty, your courage, and you giving us a really vulnerable window into your experience at the MRLP and even outside it. So thank you. Mark Eggenschwiller 23:48 Yeah, good to be here. Thank you, Brian. Brian Mueller 23:51 For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico in 1996. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since 2012, Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in 2026. The first is in Northern California, May 13th through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22nd through the 26th. And in Illinois, August 12th through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16th through the 20th. And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September 30th through October 4th. You can find details and registration information at Illuman.org slash MROP or Illuman.org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November 5th through the 8th in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman.org slash Awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence.org. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to Follow Me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present. Thank you.