Brian Mueller Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rights at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rights, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rights and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org. Now, the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory, we talk to the men who have walked the path. Today, we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Mick Owens. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making time and for being willing to share your story. Mick Owens Thanks, Brian. I feel honored to be a part of this, being part of Illuman, and this number of years has been a genuine gift and blessing in my life. So whatever I can share in this to give my story and maybe touch somebody else. Brian Mueller Great. Thank you. So, Mick, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. Mick Owens Oh, I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio. I am involved in the Southwest Ohio Council of the Lumen, and that's an important part of my life. We have a meeting coming up this coming Sunday, which I look forward to. And I'm involved in a couple other men's groups. It seems that that has become a bigger part of my life the past quite a few years. I'll maybe share a little bit more of that. And so that's, I keep, what's important to me is to keep going further in my search for the genuine person that I want to be. And I keep pulling back layers. And sometimes I say, oh, wow, there's another layer that I need to look at, you know. And I think I had that resolved. And then there's more to it. So, you know, it's a spiritual journey. It's a human journey. And it keeps me from becoming stale. And I think I've been retired now for about 20 years, so there's a lot of room for becoming stale. But I think my life has been full. I have six beautiful grandchildren, and they fill a big part of my life. I've been married for 55 years now, and that's a huge, huge part of my life. So grateful for Joni and the life that we have. And we have a good number of friends that we spend quality time with. I'm involved in a few things with our church. I'm involved in the Dismantling Racism team where we meet once a month and do different programs that keep me engaged in doing something it's proactive in our society where I see a need. I'm involved in a group of ex-Jesuits that I was in the Society of Jesus for seven years and involved with them. We meet once a month by Zoom and a few of us get together beforehand and do a planning of the topic. And that's just getting back together with these brothers of my Jesuit past that are so, I mean, we shared so much in those years. And so that's important to me. So there's just a few things that keep me going. Brian Mueller Yeah, you do keep busy. Well, let's dive into the talk about the Men's Rites of Passage now. The MRLP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rights at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start at the very beginning. So Mick, where did you make your rights and when? Mick Owens So it was 2008 in Pilgrim Park in Illinois. I was invited by a friend of mine who had been in that small men's group with him. And we were both very familiar with some of Richard Lourke's writings. He had been instrumental in the content of our conversations. And so Bob said to me, Nick, I'm thinking I'm going. Would you be interested? So I looked into it a little bit. There was an application that I filled out, and I was a little bit nervous about that. Am I good enough for this? Turned out not to be that big of a challenge. So 2008 was when I made the trip to Pilgrim Park. Brian Mueller So when you think back to that weekend now, what's the, and your arrival at the Wrights, what's the first image that comes to your mind? Mick Owens I would say the first image was going to the first large group meeting. It was in August, which could be kind of hot and steamy in Illinois, but it was a beautiful day. We're under a big tent, and the men were just walking in under this tent. And as I approached it, I heard drumming. And that's not an activity that I had really experienced much before. But I had bought a nice little drum, and some of these guys had big drums and other instruments. So I sat down. I felt a little bit awkward doing the drumming. It didn't seep in as much right away. But sitting there and just looking around at, I think there were maybe 40 men in our rights. All ages. I was probably one of the older ones at the time. But some older than I. There was a father and son there, which was impressive. And Father Richard was there. He was our main weaver. Yes, and that was quite an honor to meet him, if him was our convener in those days. Brian Mueller Now, in kind of general terms, how would you sum up the weekend? Mick Owens much more of a deep dive than I had anticipated. It started off with a very dramatic, right from the beginning, a very dramatic moment for me where one of the men got up. And I think a lot of the men who were just there had been asked to participate in different ways. I remember one of the men got up with a mirror and he was looking at it, looking at himself in the mirror and then he just smashed it on the ground. And that was the beginning of an awareness of when I look at myself, who do I think I am? And let's start from scratch here. Let's not work with this ego-based image that I've lived with for so many years. but let's try to find the genuine Mick Owens that I have lived with and I want to get to know more fully. Brian Mueller Now, without sharing anything that you'd consider confidential or too personal, were there a few moments or one significant moment, something that stood out to you throughout the rights, throughout that experience? Mick Owens Yeah, they would break down into small groups, and that was significant. And the other men I was with, the intimacy and the sharing that just happened. It seems like people came with some sense of security that this would be fine because what was going to be experienced there was going to stay there. And I personally wanted to share it with another good friend. But I would say the day that we went out to the woods for most of the day on our own, we were given four envelopes with a different question in each one. And we were to take some time thinking about, I think I wrote more in one day than I've ever been on those. Maybe there are five topics. I think there were five. I found a really beautiful spot up on a hill, and the sun was coming down through some of the trees there. And I just sat there for a while and then opened the first end of open. It was a tough, tough question. And so I sat with that and started writing. But as the day evolved, we had maybe, I won't say how many hours, but a long part of the day out there in the woods with ourselves. just some water. And if we wanted to bring a Bible with us, that was pretty much it. So that day was profound. What I wound up writing about, thinking about spending time with, you know, I remember I only got through the four of the envelopes in that maybe six hours of time. It was that. So it took me time to process and to write and to think with each one of them. But that day was very, very powerful in the way it resonated with what I brought to the retreat. Brian Mueller Now, you've already shared that part of the reason you went to the rights is that you received an invitation from a trusted friend. But were there any other circumstances in your life at that time that really paved the way or made that the right time for you to go to the rights? Mick Owens If I may, I'd like to go back a ways in my life that really where I started working on male issues. I struggled in my relationship with my dad. And he had passed away many years earlier, but I was still struggling with that. And when I started to become in contact with some writings about male issues, like Robert Bly was very, opened my eyes to many things. And I started to read more. And then I went on a men's retreat out in Milford, Ohio, run by a man, a psychologist, Charlie Kreiner. And it was about masculinity. Really, that was a dive into more understanding. Two years later, Charlie offered another retreat, and I went to that. So I kept stepping in deeper into what it is to be a man. And I remember one of the things that Charlie said in the beginning was, women have learned to do some liberation. And he said, men need to do some liberation. And so he went forward with that. At the second retreat, I met three other men who we connected with and started a small men's group. And that one of those guys I'm still meeting with on a regular basis. Two others have gone different directions. And so I kept stepping in further and further into some of the men's issues. And then it was probably past in the early 2000s when I met and started to understand more about Richard Warren, what he was offering. And actually, I connected with some other men who eventually became the Lumen brothers, like Tom Sparrow, for one, and a couple others at the time. So I was moving forward and kept searching and wanting more. I'm really hungry to discover more and more. So when this opportunity or Bob's invitation to attend the men's rights in 2008, I really did not hesitate much. I was ready for it. I was really ready. Brian Mueller Now, did you show up at the rights with a particular hope or intention in place, or did you have something even that you might have been fearing about the rights? Mick Owens Not so much about the rights. I trusted what was going to happen because of what I had read in Richard Duart, even though it turned out to be totally unknown what the experience would be. I'd been going through a rather personal struggle at the time. My mother had just had a stroke a few months before. And I was the oldest of seven children. And I was the, my mother was a dear person to me. She was a real loving, caring, unconditional loving mother. So when she had her stroke, and even many years before that, after my dad had died, I was the one who stepped up and was there with and for my mom over the years. When she had the stroke, it seemed like I was just feeling so helpless that I just, I couldn't do what I always thought I could do for my mother. I felt like maybe I was in the fixture role all the time, kind of the male guy who can step in and, you know, paint your house or do whatever, those kind of things. But this was so very different. And I, so I brought that with me. And that was a heavy, heavy weight. And so the retreat itself, the rights didn't really address that issue so much. But I learned some things about myself, about being the son who was the good son, the one who could take care of mom. I had to face my own limitations and my own portrait of myself that I had built up over the years and some of the false affirmations that I got being in that goal. And I did get affirmed because I did what a good son would do. But some of that was feeding my own ego, I think. And that came through in the rights that I unraveled some of that awareness. Brian Mueller Now, before you arrived at the rights, did you tell anybody that you were going to go? And how did those conversations go if you did tell people that you were going to the rights? Mick Owens Well, I first of all told my wife. I mean, she's my sole partner. And so she was very encouraging. She knew that I had been on this journey searching for many years, and she thought, yes, we'd go on this. I told my family, especially my two sons, I wanted them to know what I am doing, this process that I'm trying to figure out. I wanted them to know what it means to me to search deeper into male spirituality. I said that mostly my close family members. Brian Mueller Right. Now think back to the end of the rites, you know, there's a closing ceremony and, you know, it's a big experience. It's a deep experience. So you leave that day. There's a lot. There's a lot to process. There's a lot going on. But if you can, can you think back to the immediate aftermath of your rites experience and how you felt? Mick Owens Hmm. It's a little bit more difficult to be specific about that. So I drove to Pilgrim Park with two other men. And so on the way home, we had time to talk and process. And I think it was probably a six-hour drive. There was a lot of time to talk about it. We were encouraged not to get into too many specifics with other people. They wanted it to be an experience for anybody that you didn't have preconceived ideas of what it would be. So I held a lot in, but I came home, and I have found over my lifetime that if I journal, if I write things, I discover things that I wouldn't have known. So I did quite a bit of writing. I got to the fifth envelope that I didn't do on the retreat, spent some time with that. I wanted to tell people how wonderful, how valuable this time was together. I wanted them to know that, and I wanted them to know that I felt some healing from this retreat, very deep healing. And I knew that I wanted to keep going forward with what this process gave to me. Brian Mueller Now, that's wonderful. And did any of the conversations that you had afterwards with the same people you talked to beforehand, your wife, for instance, or your sons, about the experience, how did those change? Or did they change? Mick Owens I think not so much for my wife. I don't think there was a change. I think she is one who always has wanted me to share. She's always welcoming my, wherever I am, she wants me to let her know what's going on. So I remember some tears talking to her about some of the experiences. and I remember talking to my sons about the experience because I want them to be really good men, and they are. They're beautiful men. They're grown adults now. I think I've transferred some of my struggles and what I have learned over the years. I think I've shared that with them, And then they have taken that to whatever level is important to them. And I respect the men that they are. I think they are ahead of me where I was at their ages in terms of their fatherhood, their manhood, their being a husband. Brian Mueller It's been nearly two decades now since you completed the rights, and so that's some significant time. What's changed in your life, practically, relationally, spiritually, that may have been influenced by this experience? Mick Owens I think the need to keep going. The rites were an initiation. So initiation kind of means a beginning and a new level. I think I had done a lot of work before that, but it was an initiation into a new world. And I was just beginning to discover how important this world was for me. So I met, especially stepped in deeper into the Illuman group, of which you're part of that in our Southwest Ohio and other brothers that have been a part of that. And it's a hunger that I keep feeding through my relationships and some of the experiences we have. The writing retreat is always a deeper dive again. And I just want to share, maybe it's more important to me to share, more important than ever to share my growth and the transformation that I've experienced in my life. And I'm still looking for more growth and transformation. Brian Mueller Now, has your understanding of masculinity, initiation, or even the male journey changed or shifted after this experience? Mick Owens Very much so. I think more than anything that it was something I have been working on for probably 40 years now, 35 years, this masculinity. I think that for part of my life, I didn't know if I was much of a man-man. And I even wrote a poem that I shared with you, Brian, called Tough Nut, where I felt not enough of a man. And there was this maybe sensitive side of myself that I wasn't secure with at all. But what I have found since this whole process, and the rights only furthered this, but the value of vulnerability with each other to share really what's inside and how we do that with each other. And the Elimin group, we do that, and there's sacred times together when we do that. And I really value those times when I listen to others and they listen to me. Brian Mueller Well, thank you. I have just one more question for you, and that's what counsel would you offer a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in the men's rites of passage? Mick Owens I would say listen to what's in your heart. Listen carefully. What is it that you want? What is it that you want going forward? And then trust that, what you're feeling. And trust that if you decide to go forward with this, trust the experience. You will be surrounded by love. No doubt about that. You will be surrounded by support and people who care about you. And I think that you will be lifted to a new place in your life. Brian Mueller Brother, thank you. Really, I love you, brother. And thanks for your honesty, your courage, and for giving us a window into your experience at the Men's Rites of Passage. Thank you, Mick Owens Michael. Thank you, Brian. This has been a privilege, and I'm pretty grateful that I could spend this time with you. For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul Brian Mueller and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico in 1996. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since 2012, Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rights for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rights, there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in 2026. The first is in Northern California, May 13th through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22nd through the 26th, and in Illinois, August 12th through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16th through the 20th, and the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rights, September 30th through October 4th. You can find details and registration information at Illuman.org slash mrop or Illuman.org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for AWAKEN, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November 5th through the 8th in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman.org slash awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at ChoosingPresence.org slash app. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to Follow Me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present.