Brian Mueller Welcome to Follow Me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at Pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014. I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward. Before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by Choosing Presence. We believe that the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence. In a world of constant distraction, Choosing Presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the now. If you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free Practicing Presence app at choosingpresence.org. Now, the Men's Rites of Passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory. We talk to the men who have walked the path. Today, we are joined by a man who has made his rites, and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Charlie Miking. Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making time and for being willing to share your story. Charlie Myking You're most welcome. It's good to be here, Brian. Brian Mueller Thank you, Charlie. Charlie, so tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days. Charlie Myking I'm from Columbus, Ohio. At least that's where I'm living now. I am retired, and I spend as much of my time on the golf course as I can get there. But lately, these past several months, it's been really sparse. So I attempt other things to try and stay in some kind of physical shape. Brian Mueller The weather's great now, isn't it? But it's a little bit too wet. It's warm enough, but you'd be floating out there. All right. Well, now let's dive in and talk about the men's rites of passage. The MROP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop. It's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for someone or something they can't quite name. Before we dive into the why and the how, let's start from the very beginning. So where and when did you make your rites? Charlie Myking At Ghost Ranch in 2018. Brian Mueller And when you think back to that weekend, what's the first image or feeling that comes to your mind? Charlie Myking My original answer to that when I was thinking about it was dried buffalo dung. And it's only because when we were on the solo wandering out in the middle of nowhere, we encountered these piles of something I had never seen before. But it was the place that my sole partner and I, who were on the Wander Together, really came together. And we were just very fascinated by those piles of dried buffalo dung. Brian Mueller That's interesting. So maybe just think in general terms, Can you describe for us how that weekend was, what was that weekend like for you? Charlie Myking It was very much the same kind of feeling and experience that I had hitting bottom many years ago when my alcoholism had come to a head and it was either do something about it or you're going to die. That bottom experience of letting go and then the fill that occurred afterwards. Brian Mueller That's profound. Now, who was your weaver at the rites and about how many men were at your rites? Charlie Myking We had a huge group. There were about 100 men. Jim Taylor was the primary weaver. And my favorite connection during that weekend was with Belden Lane. He ended up being my mentor. And it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. Brian Mueller So without sharing anything that maybe you'd consider confidential or too personal, was there a moment or a few moments that really stood out to you that you wouldn't mind sharing with us? Charlie Myking The moments that stood out to me were the connection that I made with other men on the same journey. I still remember sitting around tables when we had the opportunity to dine together and being able to speak with Father Richard Rohr. I remember sitting at the table with Belden Lane and talking to him about the loss of my daughter and how profound that was in my life and changing things. Those kinds of experiences and connection with other people and their personal experiences helped very much to deepen my own. Brian Mueller Now, was there a single moment that was most impactful to you or memory that stands out? Was there something very definitive? Charlie Myking Yeah, it was finding my soul brother. It was a man named Gilbert and myself who were teamed up to go out on the solo wandering. And the reason we were teamed up is so that you wouldn't get lost and eaten by wild cats. And we were together and it was very much one of those experiences of, wow, this is the sole brother that I had been looking for a long time. Brian Mueller Now, you're looking back now at the rites from about eight years perspective. And if you, with that additional perspective that you have of time, you know, what's the kind of overall description you would give of the rites to someone? Charlie Myking I think the overall description would have to be, this is an opportunity to experience a soul journey with fellow seekers. We are in a pretty scarce society of people that are actually out there looking to connect with the earth, to connect with a power greater than themselves in any way other than what I would consider pretty superficial. And in the rites experience, you are with other men of the same heart that you have, and they are seeking that same kind of connection. And it's really easy, much easier to get caught up in that flow than trying to fight it on your own out there in a world who really basically doesn't care. Brian Mueller Now, a lot of guys come to the rites with sort of an intention set, something they're hoping for. or some of them might even come to the rites a bit timid or afraid of something that's going to happen. Was that the case for you? Did you have either something you were hoping for, Charlie Myking something you were fearing, or both? More of a neither. I was very curious about the experience and had read enough about why Father Richard had initiated this, which was because we are we are totally lacking any kind of rites of passage in our current culture. And I wanted to experience what that might be like because I had not, I had not had any experience similar to it in the past. And I was very much looking forward to it. Brian Mueller So, you know, the rites is about five days, four nights experience. And when you come up to the end here and you have the closing rituals and things like that, and then it's time to leave, it's a little different for everybody. Some guys have to, you know, catch a shuttle back to the airport and hurry back to their lives. Other guys are carpooling or, you know, some guys even can drive off and spend some time processing. I don't know what your experience was of that. If you could share a little bit about what your departure was like and just how those, how the rites sat with you immediately after they ended. Charlie Myking I was with another man from Columbus. We had gone together to do it. And we both collectively agreed that even though we got our phones back, we were not going to turn them on. And we were going to ride most of the way back to the airport in Albuquerque without letting either of our spouses know that that's what we were doing. We didn't want to have that whole experience of, I guess decompression might be the right word, spoiled by somebody asking questions that we weren't really ready to answer. And so we together agreed that we were just literally going to leave our phones off and allow ourselves to ride in silence from Ghost Ranch almost all the way to—well, actually, we ended up getting a hotel room overnight before we came back. So we were able to spend that time decompressing and letting the thoughts process rather than trying to answer somebody's questions that we really were not prepared to answer. Brian Mueller I bet it was nice, though, to have somebody that had just gone through that experience with you. And, you know. Charlie Myking Very much so. Brian Mueller To help do some processing. But when you did finally, when you were finally alone back on doing your own thing, was there a moment when the sort of the experience really kind of landed for you, the enormity of it or the magnitude of what you experienced? Charlie Myking I think as much as anything, what I actually felt was a little frustration over not being able to communicate the depth and the broadness of the experience myself and getting somebody else fired up to have the experience and to say, oh man, I got to do that. It was so profound for me, and yet I kind of felt like people were looking at me like, yeah, he's kind of wacky anyway. But the profoundness and the wonder of it, I kept wanting other people to react the same way I was feeling. And like I said, it was a little frustrating that I couldn't communicate that with any real impact and get, you know, a group of guys to go the next year to experience the same thing. Brian Mueller So thinking back now a little bit to just before you began the rites, before you signed up even, what kind of conversations were you having with your partner, with your friends, other family members? Were there anything that stands out to you? Charlie Myking Beth and I had done three different book studies with three different groups on Father Richard Rohr's breathing underwater. And during the third experience, we had been looking at, Brent and I had been looking at the other things that were there to offer in this thing that Richard Rohr called, or was being called Illuman. We didn't know anything about it, and there were a list of events that were upcoming. One of them was an MROP. We had no idea what that meant. And the other one was to go to Tamiya for this gathering of what turned out to be 300 men in the middle of the New Mexico desert. And we decided on that one purely by luck. I was, uh, I don't know that we would have been able to handle an MROP at that point in time, but we, we went out together and, and it was like, wow, this was, this is the group of people that I really want to be able to get to know because they are the same kind of seeker that I am. Brian Mueller And then so good. So you had the support of your partner and, you know, that's, that's important, uh, to have, uh, for a lot of men as well, when they're, they undertaking men's rites of passage, But what were those conversations like afterwards? So how did, what were your conversations like with Beth or others after the MROP? Anything different? Charlie Myking I'm not sure that the conversations were really any different, but I think what happened is that it really opened up the door for an experience a short time later to go back to Ghost Ranch with the Gender Equity and Reconciliation Commission. And I think probably 25 men and their partners, their wives from Illuman. And that for us was a real turning point in our experience of one another and spirituality. It was an amazing experience. And my enthusiasm about having been to Ghost Ranch and the people that I had met opened the door for Beth and I, both very willingly to say, yeah, we're going to do this because it was another opportunity to Brian Mueller experience something we had never experienced. It sounds to me like you're saying that the rites actually just took you deeper on your spiritual journey and then just opened up, Charlie Myking you know, expanded the work that you were able to do with Beth. Very much, very much so. We still use counsel, the counsel format as a way of creating a safe container for our communication. When we are sharing and talking with one another and there are issues that need to be discussed, we use the safe container of counsel to make it possible to be able to express ourselves comfortably. Brian Mueller Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned counsel. That hasn't come up in previous conversations, but counsel is actually the way we do work within Illuman. And even at the MROP, men will be placed in small group councils to do further processing and conversation and work together. So, yeah, that's really neat. So now it's, you know, it's been eight years. What's changed in your life since making your rites practically, relationally, spiritually? Charlie Myking Well, the things that are different are pretty much the way that I view the people who come into my life, especially with what is a real propensity for most of us to be very judgmental of those that we encounter. And my first reaction most of the time is to say, oh, that's good or bad. He's right or wrong. And then I have to backtrack and pull myself back and say, wait a minute, it is not yours to judge. That person is a human being. And regardless of what side of the fence they're on, they are loved as much by this God that I understand as I am. And it's not a matter of favor or favoritism. It's a matter of equality in the eyes of this higher power that I'm growing into a better relationship with. Brian Mueller That's really a gift, yeah. So how has your understanding or has it of masculinity, initiation, and even your purpose in life, how has that shifted over this time since the rites? Charlie Myking I grew up in a society in northern Minnesota where the lumberjack was our male model. And of course, you know what a lumberjack is, this big Paul Bunyan-ish kind of guy with an axe over his shoulder and a babe to blue ox. And all power and all might. And what I began to see was that was a very false understanding of what manhood is. And it was a very distorted view of which most of the time I felt like I came up very short and that I wasn't really a man. And the change that has occurred in me is to not continue to honor and look for that in my own manhood or anybody else's manhood, but rather to look for vulnerability and willingness to openly love and accept everyone exactly as they are, not as we would like them to be or want to change them to. Brian Mueller Yeah, what comes to mind when you talk about this is Father Richard George, who says every change of mind is, first of all, a change of heart. So it sounds like the rites really had that deep impact sort of on the sacred heart space for you. Charlie Myking Very much so. Brian Mueller Now, this is the point in our conversation where I say, what counsel, what advice would you offer a man who is discerning whether or not to participate in the rites? Charlie Myking Do it. you will not regret the opportunity and the experience that it is. I think probably the biggest single, the biggest single experience that I have had following it and, and, and perhaps even disappointment is that we haven't created a, a good place for all of those who have had that MROP experience, to be able to gather on a regular, ongoing basis to further that experience. I've had the ongoing experience of my 12-step program where my growth continues. I go to meetings literally every day. Illuman does not have that same luxury to offer and that opportunity to be gathering with fellow seekers on a regular basis because I can slip off this path pretty easily and get distracted and then get disappointed and then say, oh, that didn't, you know, that didn't really happen or, or just totally lose touch with it. I do have a long-going connection, I think would probably be the single thing that, uh, I would, I would highly recommend that you, you find a soul brother or somebody that you can, you can Brian Mueller communicate with pretty much every day. Well, and it's important to say that in some areas, There are councils that exist that men can engage in. And then we also have a program now where it trains men, teaches men how to form a council. And if they are in an area that is particularly lacking in that sort of connection and that community, then they can maybe try to create that themselves. Charlie Myking Yes. Brian Mueller Well, I have a bonus question for you, Charlie. And you and I have known each other at least since around the time that you made your rites. I think we met first at the writing retreat that we host annually here in Ohio. And I've had the good privilege of traveling with you to Oracle and traveling with you to Wild God Retreat in Chicago, all sponsored by Illuman. And know how deep your involvement's been, but that includes participation following your men's rites of passage in the elder rites of passage. And I just wanted to know if you wanted to share a few comments about the elder rites of passage, and that is the next step for you. Charlie Myking Elder Rites of Passage was a continuation of this entire experience, and it took me to even deeper levels of connectedness to the earth and to being still. We are a people who believe that being busy and doing is what makes us valuable. And I think what I learned in the Elder Rites of Passage, that being still is as valuable as doing. Brian Mueller And it kind of begs the question here that you said that you've done both the men's rites and the Elder Rites of Passage. How would you distinguish them? And if a man is trying to consider which one to participate in, maybe they're in the later stages of life, where is that line for you? What would you say to help them make that decision? Charlie Myking Wow. I think you could probably go ahead if you are somewhere in the age of retirement and do the elder rites of passage and get very fulfilled by it. I think a rites of passage in our culture should be reinstated for anybody that passes the age of 35. They should be going through a rites of passage. We don't have that demand and we don't have that opportunity. But for those of us who are, are, have lived our lives, have worked our jobs, have done our careers, have raised children, have done all those things, this elder rites of passage and, and this walk into a time that's nearing, that's nearing the, the end of our lives is a really valuable experience. Brian Mueller Yeah. And it, uh, you know, the men's rites of passage, uh, Fr. Richard Rohr began offering those in 1996. So there's a longer history of those. And the elder rites actually began in 2018. You know, I know of at least one man who did it in the opposite direction. He did the elder rites first, and then he did the men's rites of passage wanting to participate in both. So I don't think there's any hard and fast distinction. Even at my, my rites of passage, there was a man that was with us that was 89 years old. So, uh, I think back to him now, because he would be over 100 if he was still alive. But anyway, yeah, there are those two distinct programs. And people can go to elderritesofpassage.org if they want to learn more about that as well. But, you know, the purpose of this interview is to really help men discern their participation in the Men's Rites of Passage Show. Brother, I thank you deeply and from the heart. I appreciate your honesty, your courage, and for you giving us a window into your MRLP experience. Thank you, Charlie. Charlie Myking More than welcome, Brian. Brian Mueller For those listening who are now feeling a tug soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The Men's Rites of Passage was originally developed by Fr. Richard Rohr and was first offered at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico in 1996. While it was supported for many years by the Center for Action and Contemplation, since 2012, Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's Return by Richard Rohr. If you are ready to make your rites. There are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom in 2026. The first is in Northern California, May 13th through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22nd through the 26th. And in Illinois, August 12th through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16th through the 20th. And the final one of the year is in Texas, which is in MROP and Umbrales, our Spanish language rites, September 30th through October 4th. You can find details and registration information at Illuman.org slash mrop or Illuman.org slash events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman, taking place November 5th through the 8th in New Mexico. You can find more at Illuman.org slash awaken. Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence. If today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the Practicing Presence app for free at choosingpresence.org slash app. It's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to Follow Me to the MROP. Until next time, brothers, stay present.