Brian Mueller  00:00
Brian, welcome to follow me to the MROP, a podcast dedicated to the journey of the masculine soul and the transformative power of initiation. My name is Brian Mueller. I live in suburban Dayton, Ohio, and I made my rites at pilgrim Park in Illinois in 2014 I'm your host, and in each episode of our show, I'll sit down with one man who has made his rites, and I'll invite him to tell his story. This won't be an abstract explanation or a theological lecture, just a real conversation about what it was like to cross that threshold at the rites and what changed afterward, before we begin, a quick word of gratitude. This podcast is brought to you by choosing presence. We believe the greatest gift a man can give his community is his own presence in a world of constant distraction, choosing presence provides the tools to help you stay grounded in the Now, if you'd like an easy way to begin learning about the practice of presence, you can download the free practicing presence app at choosing presence.org/app now the men's rites of passage, or MROP, is an experience designed to help men move from the first half of life into the second, shifting from a focus on ego and achievement to a life of meaning and soul. On this show, we just don't talk about the rites in theory. We talk to the men who have walked the path. Today we are joined by a man who has made his rites and we're going to hear exactly what that journey looked like for him. My guest today is Chester. Trocha, Brother, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for making the time and being willing to tell your story.

Chester Trocha  01:32
Brian, it's great to be here.

Brian Mueller  01:34
Chester, tell us where you're from and how you spend your time these days.

Chester Trocha  01:38
Yeah, actually, I'm from Hawthorne woods, Illinois, which is about an hour northwest of Chicago, and I've been retired for the last four years. Right now. I'm a co convener for illuminative Illinois. I've been doing that for the last three years, and also involved in my church as well. I've got four kids and happily married.

Brian Mueller  01:58
Great. Now let's dive in and talk a little bit about the men's rites of passage. The MRP is a unique experience. It's not a retreat or a workshop, it's an initiation. Many men arrive at the rites at a crossroads in their lives, looking for something they can't quite name. But before we dive into the why and the how, let's start here from the beginning. So can you tell us where you made your rites?

Chester Trocha  02:19
Yeah, I made my rites in pilgrim Park from Princeton, Illinois. It's about two hours straight west of Chicago along, I think it's highway 88 and made it in 2012 13-14, years since I've done it.

Brian Mueller  02:33
It has been a while now, when you think back to that weekend, you know what's the first image or feeling that comes to mind?

Chester Trocha  02:39
Yeah, it's interesting. I've been thinking about it since we agreed to do this. Really. The first one is a feeling of connection, connection with myself. There's a connection with nature, connection with other men, and then beautiful pilgrim parks, just a beautiful and serene location. It's full of trees, it's got open space. It's got a creek running through it, and it holds a special place in my heart, as it does for a lot of Illuman because we've done a lot of MROPs there.

Brian Mueller  03:09
Sounds like an oasis in the middle of Illinois. Actually, it does. Great. So in general terms, what was the weekend like for you? Just kind of an overall picture, boy.

Chester Trocha  03:19
The only way I could really describe that is it's, it was an incredible experience, and it's one that that I've been carrying with me since I've been there, to be honest with you.

Brian Mueller  03:30
Oh, that's great. Now, who was the weaver? The weaver for those who don't know, the weaver is kind of the primary guide, or the man that kind of leads everyone through the rites and so you can tell us who your Weaver was, and then about how many men were, were at the rites?

Chester Trocha  03:43
Yeah, our Weaver was Belden Lane. A lot of people in a lumen and the center of action contemplation. Know Belden. He's a incredible wisdom elder. He is focused on nature. He's an authentic and fantastic storyteller, and so he was our Weaver. Is absolutely incredible.

Brian Mueller  04:05
Yeah, Belton is great. And how many men were with you?

Chester Trocha  04:07
Yeah, we had probably about 35 to 40 men from all of the United States. We had men from Canada as well. And what was interesting, it was mostly a mix of ordinary men from different walks of life. We had men from their 40s all the way to their mid 70s. I remember when in our group, we had a Mennonite minister, we had a Franciscan friar, a pastor from a church in Canada. And it was fantastic, because when you're there, everybody's dressed in just casual attire, jeans and T shirts, and it really does it. You're not wearing your garb or anything else, and it doesn't matter where you come from, and you know everybody's on an equal playing field when they're there.

Brian Mueller  04:47
All right. Now, without saying anything that you might consider confidential or that you'd like to hold close, what were a few moments or elements from the rites that kind of stood out to you?

Chester Trocha  04:56
Hmmm... A big one for me was the. The extensive use of rituals. All of us have been exposed to rituals in our churches, we go through, but in that environment, the rituals that we used were extremely powerful and at the time, I felt that they spoke directly to me or directly to my soul, and I've never experienced rituals like that before, and they were very deliberate and very moving and designed to deliver a message at that time. And that was a big takeaway for me. I've never been exposed to rituals. And then the other part of it is, just prior to this, I never had much time myself to spend time in nature and just allowing us, and especially with bell, then being a man of nature and wilderness, the opportunity to spend time alone, to really reflect the nature was a big takeaway for me as well.

Brian Mueller  05:57
Sounds great. Now you've had, you know, many years, more than a decade now, to kind of reflect, or maybe it was something really in the moment, but was there one thing that impacted you strongest? Is it something that you've reflected on and you know it? Or was it right there in the moment it hit you?

Chester Trocha  06:12
Yeah. I mean, the big one for me was the opportunity to spend time in small groups. We call them councils, right? And what we found is we end up in the small group, five or six men, and you're with that group the entire time, and immediately, you know you're in the safe environment, and men just open up. And you know, I come from the corporate world, and you know men don't normally do that. You know, sharing each other's stories and life's challenges. And it's amazing, when you're in a safe environment, how people drop their guards and they're open to share heart to heart, and, you know, and from that, I realized, you know, I'm not alone in my journey. I'm sharing my journey with other men, you know, going through the same type of thing from a different environment.

Brian Mueller  07:02
That's great. I hope this doesn't sound sort of redundant, but is there a particular memory or something that you're willing to share that captures, you know, a broad, broad perspective on what the rites have meant for you in the years since?

Chester Trocha  07:14
Yeah, yeah, there's one that you bring it up. I remember when the MROP was over, and most men had left, and I sat down by a pond and just started sobbing. You know, I went through this incredible experience, and I'm just sitting there on a bench. Nobody's there. It's absolutely quiet, and something welled up inside me, and I don't know if it was happiness, I don't know sadness. I don't know if it was relief. I don't know if it was a letdown, but there's the experience of the MRP touched something deep in my soul and my heart that I never experienced before, and I just sat there for a long time in deep contemplation about what I just experienced and what I just went through so and I know, you know, then I'm sitting there, I go, No, at the end, you know, I was appreciative of my life, and I am, had a renewed sense that of God's presence, that there was something much larger at work in what I had just gone through. So...

Brian Mueller  08:17
It's hard to rush back to your normal life after that, isn't it? Absolutely. Let's go back a little bit to the beginning and were there any circum - special circumstances or things happening in your life at the time that you decided to participate?

Chester Trocha  08:32
Yeah, for me, I mentioned I was in the corporate world in my mid 50s, married, you know, my couple of my kids were in college. The other two are in high school, kind of at that stage where kids are starting to leave working full time. And I was caught up in the rat race of the corporate world, to be honest with you. And I had no time for myself, no time to really step back and reflect. And I felt that there had to be something more to life, you know. And I was introduced to Richard Rohr three years earlier, when he was in the area, speaking and I had a friend of mine tell me about him, and really connected with his message. And, and I read his book, Adam's return. He's got a book on initiation, and I was intrigued by a sauce around male initiation and the need to shed, you know, baggage that holds you back as you enter the second half of life in order to be a more generative man. And that was of interest for for me.

Brian Mueller  09:28
So, yeah, that makes sense. Is there, did you have, do you have, like, a particular goal, or something that you were anticipating, or was there something that that you were fearing as you were heading into the rites, was there either something you were hoping to get out of it explicitly, or something that was very frightening to you before you got there?

Chester Trocha  09:47
Yeah, yeah, I was. I had back a few years before that, I had just started on my spiritual path. My mother had died, and she was. Really spiritual, and something just triggered in me and, and so it's just really continuation of my, my path. And as I, you know, studied the MROP, I had no, no idea what to expect, you know, I knew that, that Richard Rohr was the original designer of it, and, and so that that brought a lot to the table for me, and I remember filling out the application and getting accepted, and it was a big unknown. It's like, oh, okay, I guess I'm going, right? And I was a bit anxious, because it's a big commitment. I mean, basically you're asking for five days, four nights, right? It's not just a weekend, you know. And I had never previously committed to anything like that, and so I went in with an open mind, you know, was hoping to reflect on my life and leave with some direction, you know. You know, how come, how can I be better with a better man and my wife, my family, my kids, those around me, you know, I'm going to be retiring in a few years. What do I want to do, you know, with my community and the intent was to hopefully provide a better focus on what's important and how I can approach life in general, I guess is what I was looking at.

Brian Mueller  11:06
You - You said earlier that, like when the rites ended, you had this moment where you sat by yourself next to some some body of water, and you let out these emotions, and actually some tears came as well. But what was it like when you got home? You know?

Chester Trocha  11:20
Well, it's interesting. Actually, my story after that is our left, right? And everybody was gone, and I'm driving home, and if you're pilgrim parks, kind of out in the middle of nowhere, right? It's on the highway. So about 15 minutes into the ride, I remember stopping at a Starbucks. There's a Starbucks on the first segment, and so I gotta need some coffee. And I walked, and I felt like, incredible, get out of the car. I'm an incredibly happy and joyous it's like, man, yeah, I just felt like, you know, and it was hard to contain my joy. And this guy, I'm walking to the Starbucks, and this old guy was walking behind me, and held the door open for him and greeted him, you know, really joyously. And I bought him a cup of coffee. It's like, you know, it's like, God, he couldn't contain it. And then I got in my car. And then after that, it was a two hour drive. And my recommendation, you know, if you have an opportunity to reflect after the MROP, you know, do so, because spent a couple hours just in deep reflection on what I experienced. And then you know how to go to work the next morning, first thing Monday morning, right, you know, and jump back in my routine, and it just felt foreign and disappointing. And it's like, ah, after all, I had gone through with all the internal work that I was doing, to jump right back into my job was really challenging.

Brian Mueller  12:35
So, yeah, I can imagine, I know, for a lot of guys going through the rites is, is, really, is crossing a threshold. But, you know, from talking to men over the years, some feel that impact immediately. Others, it's a bit of a delay. It takes some time to really settle in what that experience was all about and what it's meant to them. You know, how did you How was that for you, and how has it, you know, impacted your spiritual journey since that time?

Chester Trocha  12:59
Yeah. So it's changed, yeah. What's changed? Yeah. So, first of all, it was a slow journey. As I said, you go through the rites and you gotta go get right back into your life, you know? I mean, it's like, ah, you know? I mean, so it take, took me a long time to unpack everything that I'd gone through. You know, it's not an immediate thing. You just went through this, for a lot of men, a life changing moment, right? Or period of time, and so to be thrust back into a regular routine was challenging and but it made, you know, over time, you know, as I was reflecting, right? It made me reflect on some of the things I'm doing, the way I'm reacting to things, you know, and really focusing on what was truly important, you know, prior to it, you know, it was all about productivity and getting things done. And, you know, really starting to spend more time with people and really, really listening to them. And it certainly accelerated my desire to continue to grow spiritually. I mean, it just triggers something in me, you know. And also what I realized over time, I started connecting with nature much more than I ever did in the past, you know, it really triggered something there.

Brian Mueller  14:09
Too, great. Now, you know, not that you did this, or anybody needs to do this, but when you made the decision to attend the rites I don't know if you told your you told your you know, and certainly you had that conversation with your wife, but I don't know if you talked to friends or other family members. How did they react to your decision to go to the rites? 

Chester Trocha  14:28
Yeah. So, I mean, my wife has always been extremely supportive of my journey and that's critical to anybody going through it, right? I mean, yeah, so she's, she was really supportive. A close friend of mine at our church, was actually the person that talked me into going to the MROP and so he was, he encouraged me to attend. And, you know, actually, over about three, four years, he wanted me to do and I just wasn't ready, you know, I mean, but he was supportive. And then what I found I didn't really just discuss with anybody else. You know, my kids, you know, they asked me, but it's but, but it's hard to explain to somebody what you've been through. So they're supportive and but superficially supportive, good way to put it. You know, how did those afterwards - so you come back from the rites? Yeah.

Brian Mueller  15:15
A lot of those people want to know what it was like. You know, what kind of conversations did you have about the rites? Did those conversations, you know, change? If you know...

Chester Trocha  15:26
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So yeah, the rites are impossible to explain to somebody because it's so internal, it's so, you know, personal. And I came home and tried to explain it to my wife, and she listened. But like I said, it's so personal. It's, it's, it's, it's really difficult to truly, you know, reflect what happened and I realized that unless you've been through it, you're not going to understand it. So as time went out, I just kept it to myself. I went to retreat, you know, I mean, it just kind of kept it there. Kept it there, because it's hard to share. It really is. And I did share my experience with a friend who encouraged me to attend and, and that was really important, because he understood it, and he and I shared things with him heart, you know, heart to heart, and that's important as well. So, but within that, I didn't, don't really believe that there are any media changes, as we talked about, and I just find myself being much more reflective.

Brian Mueller  16:26
So, right, yeah, it's kind of a slow burn sometimes, yeah, a lot of men, yeah, you know. Now it's...

Chester Trocha  16:32
A good, good way to put that is, you know, it's kind of ignited a slow spiritual churning in me, you know, would be a good way to put it. So...

Brian Mueller  16:40
Yeah, now it's been, you know, nearly a decade and a half since you made your rites in 2012 and you've had a lot of time, you know, processing, and you've certainly gotten further involved in the men's community Illuman that surrounds the rites of passage. But what, what would you say has changed in your life, sort of from either from a practical standpoint or relational standpoint, even a spiritual standpoint, since your rites.

Chester Trocha  17:04
Yeah, yeah. So during the MROP, we start each day with the morning sit, we call centering prayer, and that really resonated me. We were doing some of that, but if you're doing it for five days in a row, it really resonated with me just to sit in silence and sit in silence in the, you know, proximity, or the relationship with God. And I started a daily centering practice, and been doing that ever since. I've been doing that for many years now. And as a result, I find that I'm much more intentional when I connect with people, and much more in tune with nature and my surroundings and I still have this yearning, right, spiritual yearning, and that's an important part of my life. And a couple years ago, I attended the Living School at the center of action and contemplation, so it's a year long program like Bell and Lane was part of that as well, and my journey is just a continuous process. I'm engaged with Illuman of Illinois and engaged in my church, you know, kind of a parallel path there, and it's something that will never stop, so just something that's part of me that I will do forever.

Brian Mueller  18:16
One - I think it's worth mentioning that you've now been involved in in planning and helping the deliver the rites logistically, you know...yeah.

Chester Trocha  18:27
And it's amazing. It's just as amazing to be on the other side of it, Brian, and you've experienced that as well as it is to go through it, it really is, I get so much out of it.

Brian Mueller  18:37
Yeah, I echo that. So, so now that you've been through this rites, and you've been involved with men's work for many years, work for many years, how has your understanding of masculinity, initiation and sort of our purpose in life shifted over time?

Chester Trocha  18:49
Yeah, boy, you know, I was raised in a world, you know, where guy needs to be tough, you know, and macho worked in the steel mills and Gary, you know, a tough guy. And we see that, you know, really, and also, as I was going through the corporate world, man, it's all, it's all Eagle, you know, you got to be tough to kind of maintain, to grow, you know, that type of thing. And that's, that's fine, you know, as we need to build our ego structure and containers early on, but, but we need something different as we approach a second half of life and those superficial containers that define ourselves don't work anymore, yeah, you know. And then to me, you know, just as I'm going through this, and I've seen, you know, been leading them or being involved in the MROP, you know, men, as men, we need to be shaken up sometimes, you know, to make us analyze our lives, you know, and realize that there's something greater out. There is a power greater than us that we need to lean on, and a life's now about us. And then sometimes it's a lot loss of a loved one, or a personal crisis or, you know, or for me, is simply realization that there's more to life and we're looking for something more so. So, yeah. So that's what the men's writer passage did for me. You know, when you lift the veil and approach life and you look at the world differently after that. So, yeah.

Brian Mueller  20:12
So, you know, we're hoping to, we're having this conversation with the hope that men will be listening to this, the ones that are considering, you know, or they're going through something in their life, or considering, you know, having some spiritual questioning, or want a deeper experience in life, or considering participating in the rites, but they're, they're wanting to get more information, they're just not sure. So what kind of counsel would you offer a man who's trying to discern whether or not to participate in the rites this year?

Chester Trocha  20:38
Yeah, I mean, so first of all, I would pray on it, right? I mean, basically, it's not something you just jump into. It's something that triggers in you, and there's a yearning to do that. There's a book that Richard Rohr wrote, wrote, called Adam's return, and that gives a good summary of the initiation process and what to possibly expect there. And the other thought is to reach out to other men who've gone through the MROP, and if you're not exposed to them, you know, we've got the Illuman website, the Illuman of Illinois website, you know, ww.Illuman.org, we've got information on the MROP there. And you know, if they're interested, and again, I'm in lumen of Illinois, get on our website, and there's an opportunity to, you know, connect with us, and some one of us will get back with you to talk about it some more. So...

Brian Mueller  21:28
Absolutely. And there's the Illuman Community at community.illuman.org, which is going like our...

Chester Trocha  21:33
Yeah, I left that out, and that that's really big too to join that community. And anybody can do that. You don't, you don't have to be part of a Illuman to join that community. So...

Brian Mueller  21:41
Yeah, and I would say, I would just add to that, if men are interested, they can, they can join you and me this year at the Illinois rites which is going to be August, 12 through the 16th. We'll be there to help support them through it. And if they want to reach out with questions, they certainly can do that ahead of time. So you know...

Chester Trocha  21:58
Well, and again, if you're interested in that, you know, get on Illuman.org or Illuman.org and there's a lot of information. There's a video from Richard Rohr. There's a lot of information on the MROP. And we would encourage you to join us.

Brian Mueller  22:12
Yeah, and let me just the last thing I would might add, and if you have anything to add about this is you can, you can over analyze this decision. You know, you're not going to have all the answers, it's good to go in with an open mind and a bit of an open heart to what's going to happen. It's certainly no secret. It's, you know, it's not a secretive rites or confidential in any big way. But to know everything that's going to happen go on is not necessarily helpful, is it?

Chester Trocha  22:35
No, it's not at all. No, no. Actually, it's all about mystery, to be honest with you, yeah, you know, so it is just go in with an with an open heart. Just go in with an open heart, an open mind and just know that that you will take something out of it without a doubt. So...

Brian Mueller  22:55
Yeah. Well, Chester brother, thank you so much. Really. We appreciate your honesty, your courage and for letting us in, you know, giving us a window on your experience of the MROP.

Chester Trocha  23:06
Well, thank you so much. Like I said, it's been so important to me, and I do encourage other men to do it.

Brian Mueller  23:12
All right, we'll see you at pilgrim Park.

Chester Trocha  23:15
All right, thank you.

Brian Mueller  23:16
See ya. For those listening who are now feeling a tug in their own soul and are curious to learn more, allow me to share a bit about the history of these rites. The men's rites of passage was originally developed by Father Richard Rohr, and was first offered at ghost ranch New Mexico in 1996 while it was supported for many years by the Center for action and contemplation. Since 2012 Illuman has been the steward of this work, preserving and adapting the rites for men all over the world. To learn more about the history and the theology behind this work, I highly recommend reading Adam's return by Richard Rohr if you are ready to make your rites there are four opportunities in the United States and another in the United Kingdom, in 2026 The first is in Northern California. May 13 through the 17th. The second in the United Kingdom, July 22 through the 26th and in Illinois, August 12 through the 16th. There's one on the East Coast in New Jersey, September 16 through the 20th and the final one of the years in Texas, which is an MROP and Umbrales are Spanish language rites. September 30 through October 4. You can find details and registration information at illuman.org/MROP or Illuman.org/events. Additionally, mark your calendars for Awaken, the annual national gathering of Illuman taking place November fifth through the eighth in New Mexico. You can find more at illuman.org/awaken Finally, a special thank you to our sponsor, Choosing Presence if today's conversation moved you, I encourage you to bring more intentionality into your daily life. Download the practicing presence app for free, a choosingpresence.org/app it's a simple but profound way to stay connected to the journey we've discussed today. Thank you for listening to follow me to the MROP. Until next time brothers, stay present.