This edition of the Chatterbox Redux podcast
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When the stars talk, they talk to Nick and Sue.
Welcome back to the Chatterbox Redux podcast
with Sue and Nick and today our special guest
is Jackie McShee of Pentangle. This is Nick and
Sue with Chatterbox giving you all you need to
know about music. And now on Chatterbox UK, we're
lucky enough to welcome Jackie McShee. Jackie,
hello and welcome. How are you? Hello, Jackie.
I'm very well, thank you, Nick. Jackie, I know
we've had a chat before. But just to get some
of these listeners to be a whole batch of new
listeners, especially on the number of stations
that we're now on. I can see that you got involved
with Pentangle in 1967, but... How did you actually
get to that in 1967? Just take us swiftly through
your childhood and music -wise how you actually
got to joining Pentangle. Well, I mean I've always
been interested in music but I never thought
I would actually be able to have a career. I
became, well in my mid -teens I became very political
and I joined CND and we used to go on the marches.
My sister and I, my sister Pam and I used to
go on the marches and we joined what to us was
the nearest CND, the YCND, which is the youth
campaign for nuclear disarmament in Croydon and
we met lots of people there and on the marches
people used to sing and we used to sing and they
said you two have got really good voices you
can lead the singing and we were sort of a bit
dumbfounded but then I met guitar players and
we actually performed at a concert for War on
March and it was actually going to a club with
my sister in London and walking through Trafalgar
Square there were millions and millions of people
and these two guys came up to us and said where
are you off to and we said oh we're going up
to this club and they said come down to the crypt
in St Martin's in the field there's an exhibition
down there and they were from C &A and they walked
from it had been the walk from Jarrow which is
a reenactor from the 1930s indeed the Jarrow
march indeed yes yeah and it was um it was C
&D and all the unions and everything and there
were these horrific photographs of Hiroshima
and Nagasaki and I was just appalled. I mean
I knew about it but you know at school you're
not taught any of that sort of thing. I went
to quite a strict girls school and it was a very
classical sort of education that I had. You didn't
really touch on politics unfortunately and it
was a rude awakening and that's why we joined
C &D because we just thought this should never
ever happen again. And a lot of people played
guitar. And I gradually started singing with
people. And from this concert we did more and
more in Groydon, somebody came up and said, you
know, do you fancy getting together and having
a bit of a sing? And he played guitar, which
was fine. And it went from there. And after that,
I met another guy, a 12 -string player, who used
to work in Watkins Electrical Music in Ballum.
And he knew John Rembaugh and Bert Jones when
they were still solo players. And we started
out with other people as well. It wasn't just
me. There were quite a few people involved in
running a folk club in a pub called the Red Lion
in Sutton. And John used to come down occasionally
in Burt's. And Chris Aliff, the guy who I played,
he's a 12 string player. He used to go off every
summer down to the south of France on North Africa
busking. and he used to busk in Paris as well.
And John Rembrandt came down to play one night
and he said to me, you know, where's Chris? And
I said, oh, he's busking down, you know, in Paris.
And he said, I'm doing an album. Would you do
some vocals on it? And I said, yes. I mean, I
didn't really know what I was getting into because
I really, I was so nervous. But anyway, he did
it and he liked it. And he said, we started working
together. And Chris said, it turns out that this
is what Chris wanted all along. He said, many
years later, he said, I knew you weren't going
to get anywhere with me. And I knew if I push
you towards John and Bert, they'd snap you up.
I must have been so naive. I mean, how lucky
am I? I mean, he was a dear, dear friend. We
lost him a couple of years ago. And he lives
down in North Devon. And we all miss him. Of
course, John and Bert have gone now. I feel very
lucky to be here, to be honest, Nick. There's
a few people that have gone by the wayside. Yes.
But, you know, there's still a lot of good people
about. I mean, I can remember we did, Burt was
doing a tour of Scotland and this must have been
the winter of 66. I'm not sure if it was the
beginning of 66. or the end of 66 but I know
when we got up to Scotland it was snowing because
John said to me get some time off work and we'll
muscle in on Bert's gigs so we just you know
we did some floor sports and did some gigs with
and sometimes playing all together and it wasn't
till a few months later John and I were on a
train coming out of Charing Cross and we were
the train stopped and we looked at the festival
hall and we said We're going to be playing there
soon. Oh, yeah. OK, fine. Anyway, so I'm starting
a band with Bert. He said, you're going to be
the singer. OK. I mean, it's so bizarre, really.
I just drifted into it. Nice. I was very lucky.
So that was 1966 into 67. 67, we actually see
the formation of Pentangle by name, I believe.
Yes, I mean John always had this thing about
Pentango, he said King Arthur had one on the
inside of his shield, which was supposed to ward
off evil spirits and keep him safe. So that's,
and he was into medieval mysteries and stuff.
And it was, we did rehearse, at the end of 66,
we rehearsed with a drummer and a and I really
feel awful because I can't remember their names.
And when we all got back at the reunion, no one
else could remember their names either, which
is a real shame. But John was working, did some
gigs on a TV show. I think it was called Gadzooks.
And he met Danny. Danny was playing Julie Felix.
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. And John said to Danny,
do you fancy coming down? You know, we've got
this group. We started a folk club. on a Sunday
night, come Willow, we're rehearsing the afternoon,
work out some stuff, if you fancy it. And he
said, oh, okay, I'll bring my mate Terrell, he's
a drummer, because they'd worked with Alexis
Corner. So they were a really tight rhythm section
and very jazzy. And that's how it all happened.
We used to spend the Sunday afternoons rehearsing
stuff and play them in the evening, whether they
were ready or not. Sure. But anyway, it seemed
to go down pretty well. It was always packed
out. And lots of people used to come down, which
was really nice. Visiting musicians from America,
like Paul Simon, that he used to come down quite
a bit. And I met some lovely people, like John
Martin, Martin Carthy. And I'm just thinking
I've gone blank, as I do sometimes. It's a nice
thing, I think. Davey Graham, sorry, I could
see his face and I just couldn't think of his
name. But, you know, it was a very exciting time,
to be honest. There was so much going on, there
were lots of new things going on. Sure. Sorry,
carry on, Jackie, sorry. No, I'm saying my nephews,
who are now in their sort of late forties, we
wish we'd been a bit earlier. You know, because
you had the best music time. And of course I'm
going to say that because it's when we had such
a great time. I was able to travel. I've been
to America, Australia, New Zealand, all over
Europe, Canada. I'm very, very lucky. Sure, absolutely.
But there is obviously so much talent there as
well. To achieve something like that, obviously
there is a bit of luck and being in the right
place at the right time, but you still have to
have the talent as well and clearly in your case
it worked because we were talking about 1967
then Jackie, but of course 1968 comes... and
pentangle start hitting the charts. Okay lower
reaches of the charts but in those days we're
looking at once I had a sweetheart AA side it
looks like with I saw an angel 1969 got to 46
then we had light fright with cold mountain number
43 that we get to the charts later on early 70s
I think number 45 and I think we've got another
one somewhere but those positions in that era
um for us all to get in the lower 40s it would
have to still in those days sold 300 350 000
copies so you sold a lot of signals yeah honestly
yeah yeah so where are the royalties whatever
record company probably took about 90 percent
and the rest was split five ways It was at least
the performers that never got much out of the
deal. Incredible, isn't it? Yeah, well, I mean...
It's... I don't know. There's pros and cons.
We did acquire a manager who took over, and his...
His way of doing things was, like, divide and
rule. He forgot that we all talk to each other.
Oh! He said this. Did he? He didn't say that
to me. But he... He did really well with us.
I mean, he took us to America. OK. And, you know,
he got us some really good gigs. So I can't complain.
But we did actually miss out quite a few roses.
Oh, yes. OK. Sue, have you got anything to ask
Jackie at this stage? Yeah, I've got a question
for Jackie, but it's two questions in one. How
did you come up with the name Pentangle and does
Pentangle mean anything? Well, it's John. John
formed his own publishing company called Pentangle
Limited and he wanted the group to be called
Pentangle and so that's it and it's because his
interest in Arthurian legends and because King
Arthur had a pentangle on the inside of his shield.
And there was stories about if you drew a pentangle
on the floor and I don't know whether it would
be salt peter, sorry not salt peter. If you drew
a pentagon with whatever it was, and you lit
it, it would burn pale blue. It's a never -ending
line. OK. Thank you for that. So the name came
before the group, basically. Yes, John had it
in his mind anyway. Okay, right, let's take ourselves
to 1973 and there's quite a break there from
73 onwards for about eight years. I mean, were
the group getting tired or did you all need a
change? And tell us what also, not only why there
was that long break, but also what were you doing
for those eight years, Jackie? Well, with that
last year, the very end of 72, because Bert called
me on New Year's Eve that night on the end of
72 to say I can't take it anymore and I'm going
to go solo because I just need a break. And it
was on the cards really. We'd worked so much,
we were away from home such a lot. We hadn't
even had time to work on it. We've tried to work
on new material and I mean, truth be told, we
were getting a bit sour. You know, a bit staid.
I think the passion for the music hadn't gone,
but I think the energy had gone. We were in each
other's pockets too much and I think we all needed
a break. But John was really devastated and he
said to me, I don't really want the band to fold.
He said, shall we carry on together like we did
before? And I said, yeah, I'd be happy to. So
we did for a little while. Then John split up
with his wife and he... started living with Sue
Drawheim, an American fiddle player. He's been
playing with the Albion band for a bit. And he
said, how about forming a new band? And John's
love of medieval music, early music, was like
the mainstay of the material. We brought in pentagon
stuff because people asked for it. Things like
Crucifster and Cold Mountain, you know, all kinds
of things. We didn't do... but we were progressing
through with early music and also the people
that were in the band. We had a cello player
called Sandy Spencer that was on the, she was
with us for a very short time and she was replaced
by Sue. And then when Sue left to go back to
America, John Molyneux came in. But it was...
John was saying, you know, we need a name for
the group. And I said, can't we just call it
the John Renborn band or the John Renborn group?
And he wanted a fancy name. He said, how about
Stone Circle? I said, that sounds like Stone
Circle. I said, it gives people the wrong impression.
So he said, no, you're right. OK. So we called
it. It was the John Renborn band. But there was
a John had met Tony Roberts. John moved out to
Devon and Tony Roberts lived down there. Tony
Roberts is a fantastic saxophone player. He plays
anything that you could blow in, he played, and
Northumbrian pipes. He's really a fantastic musician.
So John persuaded him to join, and then he'd
also met Keshaf Sate, a tabla player. And he
came in and joined the band. And it was just,
it was lovely. It was a lovely atmosphere. It
was very relaxed. And we just carried on doing
the same sort of music, a lot more early music,
traditional music. blues and because of the lineup
and the different instrumentation it was really
not just interesting it was exciting so we did
that for a long time actually there's um there's
an album out um i'm trying to think what uh i've
got it here ready in case you you asked me it's
called it's the john renborn group and made in
bremen we did a live recording in bremen the
radio and somebody found it and the album has
been released at the end early part of this year.
It was recorded on the 14th of February in 1978
and it's released on MIG and a German company.
And that's on CD and can be downloaded as well
I guess. I'm assuming so I mean I don't really
know I don't even know if I'm going to get any
royalties from this one. I need to get in touch
with a record company. They did come ask me to
do the liner notes, which I did, and they asked
me to approve the graphics, which are really
nice. But that's apparently doing really well.
Now, this is as the John Renborn group, is it,
this live gig in 1978? We're taking a quick break
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Jackie, tell us a couple of songs from that live
album that jump straight into your mind. Right,
well, there's a song called A Maid in Bedlam.
That's why they've called this album A Maid in
Bremen. There's a few pieces by John, instrumental
pieces with John and Tony and Kesha. to have
a look. We recorded William Winsbury, Cruel Sister,
Kokomo Blues, Death of the Lady, Western Wine,
Sweet Potato, which is an instrument of John
Barleycorn. I mean, Tony had a good voice too,
so the three -part harmonies, and when Sue was
singing as well, four parts, it was lovely. It
was so nice to sing with other people. Sure.
No, of course, yes, of course, because you had
been basically, pentangled, the lead singer,
hadn't you, as far as I'm aware? Yes. For the
stuff I've heard, anyway. Yeah, John did a bit
of harmony singing some of Burt's songs. He would
sing his own songs, or ask me to sing them, and
I would do harmonies like Burt sang. But to actually
do three -part harmonies, you know, and work
on stuff as a singing group was very different.
Well, it meant I wasn't like, just on the spotlight,
you know? It's like, I'm not a very good front
person, to be honest. I'd rather sort of sit
at the back. Well, I would never have guessed
that, never have guessed that. Jack, if these
years are right, 1981, it looks like Pentangle
actually reformed... with that name, like a second
or reincarnation of Pentangle. I know John Renborn's
there. You're at the front, lead singer. So yeah,
who else joined you on the sort of the Pentangle
Mark II, perhaps we could call it? Well, we did.
The original band got together because we'd been
given a Lifetime Achievement Award by BBC2's
Folk Awards. Nice. when we all got together I
mean we couldn't stop talking and we were reminiscing
and it was just so funny and it's how each of
us had remembered the same something that had
happened and we all remembered in different ways
and it was really funny but then it was put to
us that it might be nice to do a tour so we did
a tour in 2008 and we went to Australia, a tour
of the UK And it wasn't really... John wasn't
really happy. He wanted to go back to college.
And he went to Dartington. He wanted a music
degree. So he decided to leave and Mike Pigott
came in. The great fiddle player. Violin player.
It's the hot club jazz. And he's fairly local
to me. So he joined and he'd worked with Bert
anyway during that... when Pentangle weren't
together. He'd worked with Bert and with Ralph
McTel. And he stayed for a couple of years and
I think we had Rod Clements for a bit And then
Peter Kertley and he was he stayed for the longest
So Terry Danny left after we did an album called
open the door, which I think is going to be released
streaming Okay, and we did an album with the
last one that Terry did was called In The Round,
and that's going, I think it's at the end of
this month, it's going to be streamed, those
two albums. Brilliant. I'm trying to get back
to what I was talking about. Oh yeah, In The
Round with Mike Piggott. Yes. Now I've sort of
teamed up with Mike again over the last couple
of years, we've done a few things together with
Kevin, which has been really nice. But then with
Peter Kirtley, When Danny left after he opened
the door, Nigel Portman Smith came in because
he'd been working with Bert in a trio called
Conundrum. Okay, nice name. And with Martin Jenkins.
It's all quite incestuous really. Nigel is a
great fretless bass player, really nice, and
a lovely piano player too. And then he replaced
Danny and then Jerry Conway came in to replace
Terry. Terry was on in the round. After that
he left and then Jerry came in in 86 I think
it was. And we just carried on recording, travelling
to America, travelling Europe, just doing the
same sort of thing but not on such a high level.
Sure. Now, you came on another radio station
and had a chat with me before Jackie, and we
spoke about an album that had been released,
I think been out for some time, and we played
a few tracks off of it as well. What was that
album? Can you remember what it was? It's already
been released. It wasn't the one I did with Kevin,
was it? Not sure. I'm not sure. I'm wondering.
I think there was some, I won't say there was
some, John Redborne was on it. And I think it
might have been even John Redborne group, perhaps.
Well, I think John had loads of tapes. It might
be this album that you're thinking about. I think
it is. John had loads of different formats of
recordings that he and I had done live and he
kept saying we must put this out as a duo album
because we'd never done a duo album. Then he
promptly went and died and then his son took
it, got it together and put all the formats,
mini discs, tapes, reel -to -reel, cassettes,
you know, different formats. He went into a recording
studio and put it down into format for a CD.
And David Suff, who was with Topic Records at
that time, knew about this. He said, I've been
out waiting for this for years. John kept saying,
promising me to get all the stuff together, but
he never did. So it's been released. I think
it was about then it was released. Yeah, I'm
just doing a search here. 2016 finalian evening
with pentangle topic records. Maybe that was
it. Maybe, maybe. Maybe, but that was, um, yeah,
finale. And there was the box set, of course.
But this one is just John and myself. And it's
recordings from over a period of time, you know,
quite a large period of time. It may have been
that. Okay, obviously I've learned it isn't do
a polish up and let's get anything that Stevie
can send me anyway So don't you know, it's it'll
be a very polished interviewer which they always
are I've got I've just looked at the discography
and then at 2021 I think you mentioned one of
these but there's I see there's four LP reissues
here for the pentangle, Baskets of Light, Cruel
Sister and Pentangle. It's all on Renaissance
record label and all for release this year. So
that's quite a lot of activity. Oh really? I
don't know anything about that. Well there you
are. So if you go to Wikipedia, Pentangle Bands,
go to discography, scroll down to the LPs and
that's there. So yeah, there you go. So I was
going to congratulate you. Sorry you don't know
anything about it. pentangle all the old stuff
he's gradually getting in I say newer stuff but
when once Danny left and then Terry he's checking
up on they said we just stream them he said because
it's out there people are playing them and they
don't own them they don't know the rights to
them he said you should have the rights to them
and I'm thinking well yes we should I mean Bert's
sons and his grandson they will benefit John's
sons and daughter will benefit it's all done
it's all above board and it's all done a sick
operation. Well, nice. So I will therefore, Jackie,
congratulate you on the four reissues of the
pentangle LPs. Jackie, well, I hope next time
that we chat, it is when you're just about to
commence a world tour that includes Italy. We're
fingers crossed for that. Sue, have you got any
more questions for Jackie? No, babe. Jackie,
if you could tell, thank you very much, of course.
Could you tell our listeners? about where they
can find more about you. What website should
they look at? And also mention Facebook groups,
pages, anything you've got, if you could let
them know it now, please. Well, my website, you
can go on www .jackymuxxi .com. Perfect. Nice
and easy. I mean, there's loads of websites out
there that claim to be my website, but they're
not. If you look up Jackie Muxi, artist. That
should get you to the right one. Perfect Jackie.
And also there's Kevin Dempsey's which is www
.kevindempsey .com Jacky, it's been an absolute
pleasure again and I'm going to really enjoy
editing this and putting the songs in. It's going
to be fantastic. Jacky McSheath, thank you so
much for coming on Chatterbox UK. Thank you very
much Jacky. Thank you very much Nick. It's a
pleasure as always. been listening to the Chatterbox
Redux podcast with Sue and Nick and today our
special guest was Jackie McShee of Pentangle.
If you're interested in becoming a future guest
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podcast. In the meantime, take care, we thank
you for your company and we catch you then. Bye
bye. This is Nick and Sue with Chatterbox giving
you all you need to know about musical attainment
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