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It's time for one of America's fastest

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growing game sensations. Oh, this is

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going to be a bust. It is What If.

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That's right. We're going to play an

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exciting episode of What If? Here on

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Wretched Radio, the game where we create

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a scenario for some they would consider

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it to be fantastic. And then we ask

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them, "What if it's true?" Tony, who's

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our first contestant today on What If?

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Todd, our first and last guest, has been

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hailed as one of the most brilliant

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journalists of our time, according to

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the London Observer. He's a contributing

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editor, ironically, for Vanity Fair. He

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was named one of the top 100 public

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intellectuals by foreign policy and

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Britain's Prospect. He studied in

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Cambridge and Oxford, and now he just

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hates God. He's the author of God is not

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great. He is Christopher Hitchen.

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Wow, fancy. Christopher, thanks very

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much for being with us, sir.

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Hello,

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Christopher. We're going to have you

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play a game show today called What If.

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Are you game?

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Sounds all right.

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All right. Here's what we've got for

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you, sir. We are going to play a game.

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I'm going to create some fantastic

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scenarios and then you tell me, sir,

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what your response would be if these

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things happen to be true. Ready to go?

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Yeah.

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All right. Here we here we go. Here's

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the first one. Now, I realize for you,

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sir, the author of of of God is not

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good, that you don't believe in God, but

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what if

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God is not great? Excuse me.

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God is not great. What? now in paperback

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at fine bookstores everywhere.

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Mhm. So what if God actually exists,

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sir? And what if he actually has

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provided everything for you? He's

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granted you life. He has given you

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health. He has given you food. He's

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given you the trees to write your screed

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against him. He's provided you

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royalties. It all came from him. What if

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that is true, sir? Would he not have

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been good to you?

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No.

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Uh he wouldn't because if that were true

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it would mean that I had an eternal

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supervising parent who would never die

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and let me get on with my life never let

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me grow up would keep me under

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surveillance

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but you have sir

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supervision every every minute of my

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life constantly asked and constantly

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asked me to be thanking and praising

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him.

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Yeah I think it would be like living in

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North Korea I I think it would be a

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horrible outcome. Well, not sure that

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that that God is Kim Jong-il. But what

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if what I said is true?

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Ask Kim Jong-il, he has a different

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opinion.

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Uhhuh. So, if that is the God who's made

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you and created you, he's allowed you to

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live your life. Shouldn't that be a sign

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of kindness to you?

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No, I I don't want anyone's permission

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to live my life. Thanks.

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All righty. Well, it's not that you've

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been asked him.

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I think it's survile and one is expected

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to constantly grovel as a result.

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All right. Christopher Hitchens, round

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two of what if. What if God exists? He's

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provided everything for you. He's kept

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you together by the power of his of his

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word. If that is truly God, if do you

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believe that that God, if he's provided

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everything for you, has rights on your

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life?

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No.

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Because

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why should he? What gives him this

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right?

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Because he owns you. He's created

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everything for you. He's kept your life.

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I don't want to be I don't want to be

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owned and I don't recognize anyone's

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right to own me.

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Remember, we're playing a game of what

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if. I wrote my I wrote my book exactly

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to teach people to emancipate themselves

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from the from the man-made slavery of

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religion. And you're you're giving the

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perfect instance of what I mean. Nobody

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I don't acknowledge anyone anyone's

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ownership of myself.

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I I know you don't acknowledge it, but

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what if he is

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suppose that I grant your premise about

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him having made me and even treated me

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well still doesn't give anyone ownership

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rights.

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Anywhere I have these for my children.

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Okay. So even though he keeps you alive,

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he causes you to breathe, he provides

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you food and everything that is good, he

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doesn't have any rights to tell you what

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to do,

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nothing.

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Does that mean that people who are sick

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and poor and hungry uh are excuse this

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uh obligation of thanking someone

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brokenly for owning them?

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Well, that isn't a part of the game

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show. I'm just asking you. Let's play

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another round here.

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I'm sorry. That is that's I I think a

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question may take the form of an answer.

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All right. So, here's here's question

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number three of our little game show

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called What If? with our special guest,

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Christopher Hitchens, the author of God

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is Not Great: How Religion Poisons

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Everything, which is a I hope hyperbole,

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but even so.

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No, it isn't. Not if not if it

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postulates that I'm someone who's owned

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by someone else.

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All right. So,

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that would that would ruin everything

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for me if it were true.

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Okay. So, ownership is a bad thing

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of people. Yes. Oh,

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okay.

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It's been widely considered. I mean, I

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know I know the Bible does call for

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slavery as it calls for genocide, but

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that doesn't make it right.

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Yeah. Well, it doesn't. But we're

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playing what if if

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you I don't know. You may you may take

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the Bible seriously for a while now.

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Oh, I sure do. What if there's a

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judgment day, sir? Just what if? What

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if? I know a crazy scenario for you, but

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a day when God causes you to give an

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account for every thought, every word,

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every deed. How do you think you'd do on

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that day, sir?

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Well, I would ask by what right?

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That's not the question. How would you

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if someone stops me and says, "I've got

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a few questions for you." I say, "Excuse

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me, I'm in a hurry." Um, what who are

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you to be posing these questions?

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Well, what if he's God and he made you

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and he has the and he has the right?

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What if

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the question the most ancient the most

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ancient question is still quo Warrento?

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By what right?

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Mhm.

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This right can't just be assumed.

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All right. If it's true, remember we're

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just playing a little fantasy.

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I understand. I'm telling you what my

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reaction would be.

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All right. So, how would if he if for

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instance if he ran you through the ten

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commandments, his standard of of

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goodness and perfection, how do you

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think you'd measure up, sir?

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Uh, well, on the on the initial burst,

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which are all about his jealousy and his

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envy and his self-esteem and how one has

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to respect that, nicks on those. I don't

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care for those. Don't don't obey them

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and never have tried to. Don't think

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anyone should. Don't think anyone needs

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to.

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Same for the Sabbath. Same for the

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Sabbath.

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You haven't done well with that. Same

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for the same for the Sabbath. I don't

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give a damn about the Sabbath. Yeah.

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Murder, theft, and perjury. I know.

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Thanks a lot. I know without being told

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that those are not kosher.

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Mhm.

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Honor the father and the mother. Rather

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depends how they behave towards me. And

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there's no commandment about about

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taking care of your children. There's no

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there's no prohibition of child abuse

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anymore than there's any prohibition of

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slavery

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or genocide in the ten commandments. Um

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so I don't care about those either

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particularly.

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Have you made any grave?

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Coveting. Coveting, I think, is a good

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thing because it leads to uh emulation

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and innovation. It's a spur to do better

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if you're jealous or envious of other

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people's property.

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However, you pretty much I don't

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approve, of course, it's wrong to take

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that property. It's not wrong to wish

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you had it yourself.

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And I don't, of course, approve of

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lumping in the women with oxen and

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asses.

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All right. So, specifically, sir, have

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you ever taken God's name in vain?

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U if I don't I've never completely known

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that and this is only in the King James

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translation uh which is the one I know

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best quite what that means

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that you've used God's name in a low way

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instead of using a four-letter filth

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word you use the name of God to express

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disgust.

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Uh no not in that way. No I don't

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believe I have.

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Really? GD? Nothing like that has ever

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flown out of your mouth.

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Not as a filth expression.

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No. As a as a filth expression

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dragging God's name through the mud.

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You've substituted his name with a swear

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word. Have you Have you ever had God did

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you ever put God first in your life,

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sir? Has he ever been number one

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for Christopher Hitchens?

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He's been No, he's been nowhere for me

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as he is in point of fact.

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So, the first, second, and third

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commandments you broken, the Sabbath,

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you admitted to that. I'm sure you were

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naughty as a child.

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I didn't admit it.

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Yeah, but you were naughty as a child.

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Excuse me. It's not an admission. It's

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an assertion.

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Did your parents ever get upset with you

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as a child, sir?

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I dare say they did. are cuz you were

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naughty. So you broke that commandment.

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Murder.

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How do you know that's what it was for?

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I'm just guessing you're like every

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other kid I've seen.

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But that might not mean made them that

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might not have made them upset.

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Mhm. Because you

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It's rather pathetic to have children

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and then expect them not to be naughty,

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don't you think?

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Mhm. Well, I think the expectation is

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that they should be

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Hello. Are you father?

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Yes, sir. I am. Sir, have you ever

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committed murder?

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No.

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Have you ever been angry with somebody?

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Um, repeatedly unjustifiably.

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Yeah. Well, I should better say that I

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don't want to sound smug justifiably and

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unjustifiably, fairly and unfairly

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because the Bible says anger is very

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important.

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Yeah.

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Anger is an emotion without which the

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human species couldn't do. We're on to

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deadly sins now, aren't we? Not

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commandments.

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Well, I would I would suggest that

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righteous anger is good. But if you've

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been unrighteously angry, then you're

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you have committed murder in your heart

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because God examines our thoughts and

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our intentions and our desires.

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You should have just asked me if I've

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committed murder in my heart. I've

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certainly done that.

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Okay. Okay. So, you've broken the

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commandment of thou shalt not murder.

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What about lusting, sir? Jesus warned

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that if you commit if you lust in your

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mind. So, you've broken the commandment

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of adultery. Correct, sir.

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None of your business.

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All righty. So, what we what we

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basically done is determined how you'd

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be doing on judgment day. It doesn't

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sound like you'd measure up at all to

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God's ten commandments.

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Who gives a

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Well, we're just playing a little game

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of what if.

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00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,959
Yes, I'm playing it. I'm playing it

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right along with you.

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00:09:08,959 --> 00:09:10,959
All righty. So, what would God do with

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you?

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You think it's a game, by the way.

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What would you do?

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I'd rather agree with you. What would

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God do with you if he found you guilty

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of breaking his laws? Would he would he

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send you to heaven or hell? What if?

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00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,519
Well, not heaven, I hope.

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Mhm. So, what would a just God

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eternity of praise and grobing and

325
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thanksgiving would be my idea of hell?

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Mhm. So, he'd send you

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I have no idea.

328
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All right. If it's true, if he judged

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you by the standard of the Ten

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Commandments, you'd be going to hell.

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If if you believe in the God of the Old

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Testament, um not because there's no

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hell mentioned in the Old Testament.

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Mhm.

335
00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:46,640
It's only with gent the punishment of

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the dead is not specified.

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Mhm.

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00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:51,519
There as you just so you know it's only

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with gentle Jesus meek and mild that the

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idea of eternal torture for minor

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transgressions is introduced.

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Mhm. So speaking

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I'm not sure you know quite what you're

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talking about. So speaking of Jesus,

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speaking of Jesus, if sir, remember

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we're playing what if, what if it's true

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that God exists in the he came to this

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earth, Jesus Christ, the God man, the

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savior of souls, and he took the

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punishment that you deserve for breaking

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God's moral laws. He died on a cross for

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you. He rose from the dead and defeated

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death. Let's say that it's true, sir. He

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died knowing that you, Christopher

355
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Hitchens, would spend all of your

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calories and energy on fighting against

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him, but he died for you anyway. Would

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that not be the single greatest act of

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kindness in the history of your life, if

360
00:10:38,959 --> 00:10:41,360
not in the world?

361
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No, it would not.

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How come? Because I if I if I if I had

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had the power or had actually been

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present, I would have done everything

365
00:10:47,839 --> 00:10:51,920
possible to prevent a human sacrifice

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from being enacted whether the person

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concerned wanted it or not.

368
00:10:53,519 --> 00:10:58,079
Yeah. But but let's just say it

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it's a bar it's barbaric and if no one

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has the right or the duty uh to emulate

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themselves for me. I don't I don't want

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00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,600
it. I didn't ask for it and I'm not

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bound by it.

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00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,279
Yeah. That's not the question though. If

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00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:11,760
it happened, would it not be an act of

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00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:13,839
kindness? No, it would be an act of

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extreme. It would be an act of extreme

378
00:11:13,839 --> 00:11:17,839
presumption saying what I'm doing now

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binds someone who hasn't yet been born.

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Takes away my free will. Takes away my

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autonomy. It gives me no choice in the

382
00:11:20,959 --> 00:11:24,959
matter. I I've told it's I'm sorry. It's

383
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,440
too bad. The sacrifice has already been

384
00:11:24,959 --> 00:11:30,240
made. You're you're committed. What What

385
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,600
is this but a very very crude form of

386
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,720
tyranny and intimidation?

387
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,320
Well, it seems like you have the right

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00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,560
to reject it. You've done a fine job to

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00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,040
date. So if it's true, sir, you don't

390
00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:40,480
can't you at least admit yes, that would

391
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,360
have been an act of kindness. I just

392
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,440
don't believe that it happened.

393
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,000
No, no, no. I I thought about it quite a

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lot,

395
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,800
but I have I have quite a long

396
00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:48,240
discussion of this in my book. You're

397
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,560
not trying anything on me that's

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00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,880
original or all that daring or playful.

399
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:54,800
I I I make that assumption and examine

400
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,880
it in my book. I say that's here's what

401
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,399
my reaction is to this offer. Please

402
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,680
look it up and please encourage your

403
00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:01,920
listeners to do likewise.

404
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:02,560
But sir, we're playing a little fantasy

405
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,800
game.

406
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,560
I understand perfectly. I I I'm not I'm

407
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,839
not as slow on the uptake as you seem to

408
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,519
suppose. How many times do I have to

409
00:12:07,839 --> 00:12:11,120
tell you? I make the assumption along

410
00:12:09,519 --> 00:12:12,800
with you and I give you my response to

411
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,600
it. No, I don't think it would be an act

412
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,360
of kindness.

413
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,560
All right. What if

414
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,600
it would be a tyrann I think it's a

415
00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:18,959
tyrannical act.

416
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,040
It's a tyrannical act that somebody

417
00:12:18,959 --> 00:12:22,720
sacrificed his life for you.

418
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,040
But according to you, he didn't.

419
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,920
All right.

420
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,519
Cuz he was seen alive very shortly after

421
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,200
these supposed events.

422
00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:30,320
Yeah. That'd be the resurrection.

423
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,680
Did he die or what?

424
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,680
Yeah, he did. And rose from the dead.

425
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:35,200
It's called Easter. been celebrated for

426
00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:36,320
a couple thousand years

427
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,480
to no effect.

428
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,120
Mhm. Okay. I'm sure that it hasn't

429
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,480
affected anybody.

430
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,360
Supposed to come back in the lifetime of

431
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,399
his listeners.

432
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,760
Mhm.

433
00:12:42,399 --> 00:12:45,279
That was a direct promise.

434
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,800
It just depends on your understanding of

435
00:12:45,279 --> 00:12:48,240
esquetology. Sir, let me play another

436
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,320
round of what if before we close our

437
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,560
time together with Christopher Hitchens.

438
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,320
What if the Bible is accurate? Sir, I

439
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:56,560
want to share a quote with you from the

440
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,880
Bible. All right, sir. For the wrath of

441
00:12:56,560 --> 00:13:01,440
God is revealed from heaven against all

442
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:04,800
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men

443
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:07,120
who by their unrighteousness suppress

444
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,760
the truth. For what can be known about

445
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,240
God is plain to them because God has

446
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,560
shown it to them. For his invisible

447
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,120
attributes, his eternal power and divine

448
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:18,880
nature have been clearly perceived ever

449
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,600
since the creation of the world in the

450
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:25,360
things that have been made. So that they

451
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:27,040
slash you are without excuse. Does that

452
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,720
sound like you, sir?

453
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,079
No. It sounds like St. Paul,

454
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,240
right? But does it sound like he's

455
00:13:30,079 --> 00:13:32,959
describing you in Romans 1?

456
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,880
No.

457
00:13:32,959 --> 00:13:38,160
You're not suppressing the obvious truth

458
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:40,480
that there's a creator because you, sir,

459
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,079
prefer to live your own autonomous way.

460
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,760
St. Paul is near the mark when he talks

461
00:13:42,079 --> 00:13:46,000
about the evidence of things not seen

462
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,839
and when he admits that most of this is

463
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,519
supposition and the things he's claiming

464
00:13:47,839 --> 00:13:51,600
to know cannot be known by anyone.

465
00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:53,120
Mhm. So, sir, you're familiar with the

466
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,760
prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon,

467
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,120
correct?

468
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,079
No. You've never heard of Charles

469
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,360
Spurgeon?

470
00:13:56,079 --> 00:13:57,760
I've heard the name. I can't sound

471
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,519
familiar.

472
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,040
Ah, the prince of preachers. He said

473
00:13:59,519 --> 00:14:03,279
regarding a fellow like you, somebody

474
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,639
who fights and wars against God.

475
00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:07,920
Typically, if you want to know the

476
00:14:04,639 --> 00:14:09,760
reason why, just follow him home. Sir,

477
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,440
is it possible that the reason you rage

478
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,959
so much against God is because you just

479
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,639
want to live your own autonomous way,

480
00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:16,240
living any way that you want to, any

481
00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:18,079
lifestyle that you prefer without being

482
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,760
accountable to your creator?

483
00:14:18,079 --> 00:14:22,480
I think that's highly probable. Yes.

484
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,560
All right. Excellent, sir. We appreciate

485
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,800
your time. The co the book is called God

486
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:29,440
is not great. How religion poisons

487
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,480
absolutely 100% everything. Sir, we're

488
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,880
grateful for your time. Thanks for

489
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,199
playing our little game. Anytime.

490
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:41,320
Goodbye, sir.

491
00:14:35,199 --> 00:14:41,320
What if this is wretched radio?