It's time for one of America's fastest
growing game sensations. Oh, this is
going to be a bust. It is What If.
That's right. We're going to play an
exciting episode of What If? Here on
Wretched Radio, the game where we create
a scenario for some they would consider
it to be fantastic. And then we ask
them, "What if it's true?" Tony, who's
our first contestant today on What If?
Todd, our first and last guest, has been
hailed as one of the most brilliant
journalists of our time, according to
the London Observer. He's a contributing
editor, ironically, for Vanity Fair. He
was named one of the top 100 public
intellectuals by foreign policy and
Britain's Prospect. He studied in
Cambridge and Oxford, and now he just
hates God. He's the author of God is not
great. He is Christopher Hitchen.
Wow, fancy. Christopher, thanks very
much for being with us, sir.
Hello,
Christopher. We're going to have you
play a game show today called What If.
Are you game?
Sounds all right.
All right. Here's what we've got for
you, sir. We are going to play a game.
I'm going to create some fantastic
scenarios and then you tell me, sir,
what your response would be if these
things happen to be true. Ready to go?
Yeah.
All right. Here we here we go. Here's
the first one. Now, I realize for you,
sir, the author of of of God is not
good, that you don't believe in God, but
what if
God is not great? Excuse me.
God is not great. What? now in paperback
at fine bookstores everywhere.
Mhm. So what if God actually exists,
sir? And what if he actually has
provided everything for you? He's
granted you life. He has given you
health. He has given you food. He's
given you the trees to write your screed
against him. He's provided you
royalties. It all came from him. What if
that is true, sir? Would he not have
been good to you?
No.
Uh he wouldn't because if that were true
it would mean that I had an eternal
supervising parent who would never die
and let me get on with my life never let
me grow up would keep me under
surveillance
but you have sir
supervision every every minute of my
life constantly asked and constantly
asked me to be thanking and praising
him.
Yeah I think it would be like living in
North Korea I I think it would be a
horrible outcome. Well, not sure that
that that God is Kim Jong-il. But what
if what I said is true?
Ask Kim Jong-il, he has a different
opinion.
Uhhuh. So, if that is the God who's made
you and created you, he's allowed you to
live your life. Shouldn't that be a sign
of kindness to you?
No, I I don't want anyone's permission
to live my life. Thanks.
All righty. Well, it's not that you've
been asked him.
I think it's survile and one is expected
to constantly grovel as a result.
All right. Christopher Hitchens, round
two of what if. What if God exists? He's
provided everything for you. He's kept
you together by the power of his of his
word. If that is truly God, if do you
believe that that God, if he's provided
everything for you, has rights on your
life?
No.
Because
why should he? What gives him this
right?
Because he owns you. He's created
everything for you. He's kept your life.
I don't want to be I don't want to be
owned and I don't recognize anyone's
right to own me.
Remember, we're playing a game of what
if. I wrote my I wrote my book exactly
to teach people to emancipate themselves
from the from the man-made slavery of
religion. And you're you're giving the
perfect instance of what I mean. Nobody
I don't acknowledge anyone anyone's
ownership of myself.
I I know you don't acknowledge it, but
what if he is
suppose that I grant your premise about
him having made me and even treated me
well still doesn't give anyone ownership
rights.
Anywhere I have these for my children.
Okay. So even though he keeps you alive,
he causes you to breathe, he provides
you food and everything that is good, he
doesn't have any rights to tell you what
to do,
nothing.
Does that mean that people who are sick
and poor and hungry uh are excuse this
uh obligation of thanking someone
brokenly for owning them?
Well, that isn't a part of the game
show. I'm just asking you. Let's play
another round here.
I'm sorry. That is that's I I think a
question may take the form of an answer.
All right. So, here's here's question
number three of our little game show
called What If? with our special guest,
Christopher Hitchens, the author of God
is Not Great: How Religion Poisons
Everything, which is a I hope hyperbole,
but even so.
No, it isn't. Not if not if it
postulates that I'm someone who's owned
by someone else.
All right. So,
that would that would ruin everything
for me if it were true.
Okay. So, ownership is a bad thing
of people. Yes. Oh,
okay.
It's been widely considered. I mean, I
know I know the Bible does call for
slavery as it calls for genocide, but
that doesn't make it right.
Yeah. Well, it doesn't. But we're
playing what if if
you I don't know. You may you may take
the Bible seriously for a while now.
Oh, I sure do. What if there's a
judgment day, sir? Just what if? What
if? I know a crazy scenario for you, but
a day when God causes you to give an
account for every thought, every word,
every deed. How do you think you'd do on
that day, sir?
Well, I would ask by what right?
That's not the question. How would you
if someone stops me and says, "I've got
a few questions for you." I say, "Excuse
me, I'm in a hurry." Um, what who are
you to be posing these questions?
Well, what if he's God and he made you
and he has the and he has the right?
What if
the question the most ancient the most
ancient question is still quo Warrento?
By what right?
Mhm.
This right can't just be assumed.
All right. If it's true, remember we're
just playing a little fantasy.
I understand. I'm telling you what my
reaction would be.
All right. So, how would if he if for
instance if he ran you through the ten
commandments, his standard of of
goodness and perfection, how do you
think you'd measure up, sir?
Uh, well, on the on the initial burst,
which are all about his jealousy and his
envy and his self-esteem and how one has
to respect that, nicks on those. I don't
care for those. Don't don't obey them
and never have tried to. Don't think
anyone should. Don't think anyone needs
to.
Same for the Sabbath. Same for the
Sabbath.
You haven't done well with that. Same
for the same for the Sabbath. I don't
give a damn about the Sabbath. Yeah.
Murder, theft, and perjury. I know.
Thanks a lot. I know without being told
that those are not kosher.
Mhm.
Honor the father and the mother. Rather
depends how they behave towards me. And
there's no commandment about about
taking care of your children. There's no
there's no prohibition of child abuse
anymore than there's any prohibition of
slavery
or genocide in the ten commandments. Um
so I don't care about those either
particularly.
Have you made any grave?
Coveting. Coveting, I think, is a good
thing because it leads to uh emulation
and innovation. It's a spur to do better
if you're jealous or envious of other
people's property.
However, you pretty much I don't
approve, of course, it's wrong to take
that property. It's not wrong to wish
you had it yourself.
And I don't, of course, approve of
lumping in the women with oxen and
asses.
All right. So, specifically, sir, have
you ever taken God's name in vain?
U if I don't I've never completely known
that and this is only in the King James
translation uh which is the one I know
best quite what that means
that you've used God's name in a low way
instead of using a four-letter filth
word you use the name of God to express
disgust.
Uh no not in that way. No I don't
believe I have.
Really? GD? Nothing like that has ever
flown out of your mouth.
Not as a filth expression.
No. As a as a filth expression
dragging God's name through the mud.
You've substituted his name with a swear
word. Have you Have you ever had God did
you ever put God first in your life,
sir? Has he ever been number one
for Christopher Hitchens?
He's been No, he's been nowhere for me
as he is in point of fact.
So, the first, second, and third
commandments you broken, the Sabbath,
you admitted to that. I'm sure you were
naughty as a child.
I didn't admit it.
Yeah, but you were naughty as a child.
Excuse me. It's not an admission. It's
an assertion.
Did your parents ever get upset with you
as a child, sir?
I dare say they did. are cuz you were
naughty. So you broke that commandment.
Murder.
How do you know that's what it was for?
I'm just guessing you're like every
other kid I've seen.
But that might not mean made them that
might not have made them upset.
Mhm. Because you
It's rather pathetic to have children
and then expect them not to be naughty,
don't you think?
Mhm. Well, I think the expectation is
that they should be
Hello. Are you father?
Yes, sir. I am. Sir, have you ever
committed murder?
No.
Have you ever been angry with somebody?
Um, repeatedly unjustifiably.
Yeah. Well, I should better say that I
don't want to sound smug justifiably and
unjustifiably, fairly and unfairly
because the Bible says anger is very
important.
Yeah.
Anger is an emotion without which the
human species couldn't do. We're on to
deadly sins now, aren't we? Not
commandments.
Well, I would I would suggest that
righteous anger is good. But if you've
been unrighteously angry, then you're
you have committed murder in your heart
because God examines our thoughts and
our intentions and our desires.
You should have just asked me if I've
committed murder in my heart. I've
certainly done that.
Okay. Okay. So, you've broken the
commandment of thou shalt not murder.
What about lusting, sir? Jesus warned
that if you commit if you lust in your
mind. So, you've broken the commandment
of adultery. Correct, sir.
None of your business.
All righty. So, what we what we
basically done is determined how you'd
be doing on judgment day. It doesn't
sound like you'd measure up at all to
God's ten commandments.
Who gives a
Well, we're just playing a little game
of what if.
Yes, I'm playing it. I'm playing it
right along with you.
All righty. So, what would God do with
you?
You think it's a game, by the way.
What would you do?
I'd rather agree with you. What would
God do with you if he found you guilty
of breaking his laws? Would he would he
send you to heaven or hell? What if?
Well, not heaven, I hope.
Mhm. So, what would a just God
eternity of praise and grobing and
thanksgiving would be my idea of hell?
Mhm. So, he'd send you
I have no idea.
All right. If it's true, if he judged
you by the standard of the Ten
Commandments, you'd be going to hell.
If if you believe in the God of the Old
Testament, um not because there's no
hell mentioned in the Old Testament.
Mhm.
It's only with gent the punishment of
the dead is not specified.
Mhm.
There as you just so you know it's only
with gentle Jesus meek and mild that the
idea of eternal torture for minor
transgressions is introduced.
Mhm. So speaking
I'm not sure you know quite what you're
talking about. So speaking of Jesus,
speaking of Jesus, if sir, remember
we're playing what if, what if it's true
that God exists in the he came to this
earth, Jesus Christ, the God man, the
savior of souls, and he took the
punishment that you deserve for breaking
God's moral laws. He died on a cross for
you. He rose from the dead and defeated
death. Let's say that it's true, sir. He
died knowing that you, Christopher
Hitchens, would spend all of your
calories and energy on fighting against
him, but he died for you anyway. Would
that not be the single greatest act of
kindness in the history of your life, if
not in the world?
No, it would not.
How come? Because I if I if I if I had
had the power or had actually been
present, I would have done everything
possible to prevent a human sacrifice
from being enacted whether the person
concerned wanted it or not.
Yeah. But but let's just say it
it's a bar it's barbaric and if no one
has the right or the duty uh to emulate
themselves for me. I don't I don't want
it. I didn't ask for it and I'm not
bound by it.
Yeah. That's not the question though. If
it happened, would it not be an act of
kindness? No, it would be an act of
extreme. It would be an act of extreme
presumption saying what I'm doing now
binds someone who hasn't yet been born.
Takes away my free will. Takes away my
autonomy. It gives me no choice in the
matter. I I've told it's I'm sorry. It's
too bad. The sacrifice has already been
made. You're you're committed. What What
is this but a very very crude form of
tyranny and intimidation?
Well, it seems like you have the right
to reject it. You've done a fine job to
date. So if it's true, sir, you don't
can't you at least admit yes, that would
have been an act of kindness. I just
don't believe that it happened.
No, no, no. I I thought about it quite a
lot,
but I have I have quite a long
discussion of this in my book. You're
not trying anything on me that's
original or all that daring or playful.
I I I make that assumption and examine
it in my book. I say that's here's what
my reaction is to this offer. Please
look it up and please encourage your
listeners to do likewise.
But sir, we're playing a little fantasy
game.
I understand perfectly. I I I'm not I'm
not as slow on the uptake as you seem to
suppose. How many times do I have to
tell you? I make the assumption along
with you and I give you my response to
it. No, I don't think it would be an act
of kindness.
All right. What if
it would be a tyrann I think it's a
tyrannical act.
It's a tyrannical act that somebody
sacrificed his life for you.
But according to you, he didn't.
All right.
Cuz he was seen alive very shortly after
these supposed events.
Yeah. That'd be the resurrection.
Did he die or what?
Yeah, he did. And rose from the dead.
It's called Easter. been celebrated for
a couple thousand years
to no effect.
Mhm. Okay. I'm sure that it hasn't
affected anybody.
Supposed to come back in the lifetime of
his listeners.
Mhm.
That was a direct promise.
It just depends on your understanding of
esquetology. Sir, let me play another
round of what if before we close our
time together with Christopher Hitchens.
What if the Bible is accurate? Sir, I
want to share a quote with you from the
Bible. All right, sir. For the wrath of
God is revealed from heaven against all
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men
who by their unrighteousness suppress
the truth. For what can be known about
God is plain to them because God has
shown it to them. For his invisible
attributes, his eternal power and divine
nature have been clearly perceived ever
since the creation of the world in the
things that have been made. So that they
slash you are without excuse. Does that
sound like you, sir?
No. It sounds like St. Paul,
right? But does it sound like he's
describing you in Romans 1?
No.
You're not suppressing the obvious truth
that there's a creator because you, sir,
prefer to live your own autonomous way.
St. Paul is near the mark when he talks
about the evidence of things not seen
and when he admits that most of this is
supposition and the things he's claiming
to know cannot be known by anyone.
Mhm. So, sir, you're familiar with the
prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon,
correct?
No. You've never heard of Charles
Spurgeon?
I've heard the name. I can't sound
familiar.
Ah, the prince of preachers. He said
regarding a fellow like you, somebody
who fights and wars against God.
Typically, if you want to know the
reason why, just follow him home. Sir,
is it possible that the reason you rage
so much against God is because you just
want to live your own autonomous way,
living any way that you want to, any
lifestyle that you prefer without being
accountable to your creator?
I think that's highly probable. Yes.
All right. Excellent, sir. We appreciate
your time. The co the book is called God
is not great. How religion poisons
absolutely 100% everything. Sir, we're
grateful for your time. Thanks for
playing our little game. Anytime.
Goodbye, sir.
What if this is wretched radio?