Let's open with a moment of silence
followed by the serenity prayer.
God
grant me to accept the things I cannot
change the courage to change things and
the wisdom to know the difference.
I'm Harvey Asher, a sexolic
and my sobriety date is March 8th, 1984.
Um,
I used to be about six feet tall before
I got into recovery. Having a lot out of
me. Uh, I, um,
can you read the essay purpose for us or
someone at this point? They're just
coming up here.
Madam Sexaholic.
Amen.
DSA purpose. Sexaholics Anonymous is a
fellowship of men and women who share
their experience, strength, and hope
with each other that they may solve
their common problem and help others to
recover. The only requirement for
membership is to desire to stop lusting
and become sexually sober. There are no
dues or fees for SA membership. We are
self-supporting for our own
contributions. SA is not allowed with
any sect, denomination, politics,
organization, or institution. Does not
wish to engage in any controversy,
neither endorses nor opposes any causes.
Our primary purpose is to stay sexually
sober and help others to achieve sexual
sobriety.
Thank you. Thank you.
Let's get to it. I'm um I'm going to
start speaking a while and then
hopefully Hey, Ryan. Um hopefully
we'll have some time for you all to kind
of share a little about some of the
things that I'm going to bring up today.
Um, I really didn't know how I was going
to begin this because there are so many
ways to begin. Uh but I got my answer
last night when a young guy
with we'll say young guy but whatever
came up to me to say what really helped
him
some months ago when I asked a group in
my own fel hometown in Nashville uh how
many people believed they really had a
disease.
How many of you
believe that your condition
is like high blood pressure or diabetes
or
multiple sclerosis,
especially MS where it will come in
little increments and then go away and
each time it comes and goes, it gets a
little bigger, a little more or ulcers
that will flare up or settle down. How
many of you, and I'd like you to raise
your hand, really believe
you have a disease?
Okay?
Because if you don't, and let me tell
you, this is a great response, but if
you don't, you're probably
in the majority
because many people who come to this
fellowship
have a tremendous problem with chapter
five in the AA book where it says we had
to let go of our old ideas.
It's such a simple statement that we
read day after day and we don't give it
much thought.
And where is it placed?
It's placed
in the paragraphs before
it says and here are the suggestions the
steps. In other words, there are some
basic requirements
of acceptance
prior to being able to take the steps.
And the steps are our medicine for a
disease. So if we can't take the steps,
it's difficult to stay sober.
And so we need to understand what's
before the steps. And there are some
keys. One says in these sections
about being honest. It says we could be
mentally ill and get this program, but
if we're dishonest, we can't get it.
Okay? So it says being crazy is no
problem in getting this program.
But that honesty and then it said
if you want what we have and are willing
to go to any length to get it
any length. What does any length mean?
you know, what are we willing to do to
get it?
And then it talks about
letting go of old ideas.
And this fellowship,
in my opinion, is so
entrenched
with the old idea that we're sinners,
that we're bad getting good. We're not
sick getting well. I mean, what a job
to help each other
redo those brain circuits of going from
bad to good,
sick to well.
And
this whole concept
is for one reason. Why do we get sober?
I mean, why go through this? You know,
we talk about masturbation. We talk
about adultery. This, you know, this
stuff's been going on for thousands of
years.
You know, like an AA, they're not
prohibitionists.
You know, we don't go around saying,
"Oh, you better not masturbate. It's
terrible. Look what happened to you."
You know, and by the way, my program in
Nashville when I went blind about six
years ago on one eye, they'd say, "See,
I mean, how did they know?"
to this concept of the disease.
The disease, you know, I was
deep in meditation. I have a real
hopefully comfortable sobriety,
but I was deep in meditation
doing TM the other day. Must have been
about 15 minutes into it. just clear and
out of nowhere
and a a nude man. I had never had sex
with him. A nude man showed up in my
head so vivid.
Where does that come from?
How does it show up?
The speaker last night was speaking
about intimacy and all of a sudden I
pictured a sexual thing I had done with
someone 28 years ago
out of nowhere. So real.
What other explanation could be than I
have screwed up cells circuits? My
circuits are messed up.
I'm a very sick man.
And so why am I here? Why am I sharing?
Why am I going to meetings after a lot
of years? I've moved to Memphis for
about seven months. And you know, it's
my priority getting to meetings
and I'm not going to act out today.
Can't guarantee you tomorrow, but today
I don't want to act out. I'm not going
to act out today. I don't want to. done
my contracts.
So why am I here doing this? Because
this program is not about lust or sex.
It's about comfort.
It's about comfort. We're not
prohibitionists. We're not um trying to
change the world
about sexual things. We're trying to be
comfortable and I cannot be comfortable
if I am using the allergen I'm allergic
to.
It doesn't work if you're allergic to
penicellin.
Even if you use aylin,
you're not going to feel comfortable.
You're going to get a rash. You're going
to get sick.
So, do I accept
that I have an allergy?
Do I accept it?
and that if I do certain things, not
that they're bad or they're good, but if
I do certain things, like someone who is
allergic to um peanuts
and they don't check the labels on the
boxes
and they end up getting some peanuts and
they end up being very si sick.
Why are they going to be comfortable?
No.
So, this is about for me
recognizing number one that I'm sick
getting well. Number two, that my
sickness is a phys is an allergy
accompanied by a mental obsession.
Now, where the heck am I getting this
stuff from?
You know, am I just making it up? Well,
you know, I'm still still have trouble
making things up. You have to check out
whatever I say. Read it because I'll
I'll create it to my own making.
But this is what the big book says.
And how do we know this is what they
meant? because they did not put Bill W's
story first in the AA book.
It's not first. And by the way, I
referred to the AA book because Roy in
the SA book
on a few occasions to my knowledge is
alluding to the fact that he assumes we
know the AA book.
Okay. So, what do they do to begin the
AA book? They begin with a doctor's
opinion.
They don't begin with Bill's revelation,
his spiritual awakening.
They begin with a physical allergy
accompanied by a mental obsession.
And I know my circuits are messed up.
There's no way that naked body would
have shown up in the middle of my
meditation.
No way.
If I had some normal circuits.
Now, let's say that happens to other
people who don't have this disease
because you all,
many of you, you're addicts going to be
listening to whatever I say to prove me
wrong. Okay?
I do it with people who are of the
opposite political parties that I am.
They can't say anything right.
If I go to a denominational
uh type of uh religious service in my
religion, I'm going to listen and then
prove everything's wrong.
Okay.
So here you're going to try to say but
hey how you know this all doesn't make
sense. I do such bad things you know
how could he say it's it's just a
physical allergy.
But without this concept the rest of my
talk is going to not work out
because
What is sex with self
cannot be formalized.
The reason is
that I have to be honest with myself to
what that allergen is,
what part of this issue of sex with self
I'm talking about. Now, this fellowship
has certain subjects and I've noticed
they've broken through some of these
taboo areas we don't talk about this at
this conference. One subject we don't
talk about is what goes on in a marriage
bed.
Big secret in essay. It's like we're
Unix.
Nobody does anything.
And they if they do it, it's a pure
accident. I don't know. They don't know
just how it happened.
And we're just pure as a driven snow.
The other taboo subject is what do
couples do when they're engaged and
they're getting married?
Taboo subject.
No one talks about what they do with
each other.
And the third taboo subject is what is
sex with self?
It's not really spoken about believe it
or not. We use the term
but you know a lot of people in the
fellowship interpret sex with self
meaning grabbing yourself
doing something with it. This is going
to be male oriented by the way. So,
females, please bear with me and maybe
you'll get up and translate it for us,
but if you'd like
and having something ejaculate out
and that's what's considered
masturbation to lots of people,
okay,
man, what goes on in this fellowship
that walk the line and I don't know for
we have some people here from Europe and
I don't know if you have that expression
walking the line
going to the edge of the cliff
more people go to the edge of that cliff
then is spoken about because it's not
spoken about
because it's not the person says I
haven't ejaculated
so it's not sex with self
and I asked Roy some years ago
oneonone you know Roy when when he wrote
this
it's kind of vague what is sex with self
what do you
And he said to me, "Well, we have to be
careful
about
dotting every eye because then it
becomes like a religion
if I remember the conversation right.
And so I have to keep that in mind that
I cannot define for you other than that
being very obvious
part
Okay, I can't define it for you,
but I could say
what
what do you do that ultimately
negates your comfort?
And what is it you do that sets off the
reaction,
the chemical reaction in the brain that
becomes
what we call craving
that sets up the phenomenon
of doing it again
out of powerlessness.
You know, I laugh about it sometimes,
but you know,
powerlessness
to me is a concept of, man, if I got to
go to the bathroom,
I could really hold off, but if I start
going,
I can't stop at midstream.
Okay.
Now,
therefore, what is it?
I came into the program before we had
the essay book.
Roy had written some of these in loose
sheets. We had a brochure. There were
two of us here in Nashville. We didn't
know anyone else.
Um,
and so I didn't know anything about what
to do or not to do or whatever. And I'll
never forget it. I was in a health in a
uh spa alone in a shower room and I
said, "Oh, I think I'll let myself
get aroused
without
physical touch."
And after it happened, I said,
"Hey,
this isn't
right for me.
This isn't going to work."
And I put a definition on that day.
That's what hopefully we mean by
progressive victory over lust.
And again, this is male oriented, not on
purpose, but that's my experience.
Strength and hope. So,
so what is it we're saying? We're saying
that an erection isn't the issue because
erections a lot of times are reflections
of the REM sleep, what what level sleep
you're in.
So the erection isn't the issue. It's
yet the erection is the issue
because their word motive is before it
and what do I do with it? I was so ill
was I'm still so ill but I was so ill
those first few years I could not
meditate without arousal.
Why could I tell you? you know I'm sex
poppy
and I had to learn a whole lot of stuff
and on this subject I want to bring this
up about what is sex with self because
I've been thinking about it recently
what justification
for a sex addict
is there in ever having an erection if
you're in this program other than in bed
with your wife
or before you go to the bathroom in the
morning or something.
What happens from an erection?
By the way, these are taboo subjects. No
one talks about words like erection and
a sexual addiction
recovery program.
What happens? Well, what happens are all
kinds of chemicals get triggered off in
the brain. That's what happens if
chemicals aren't triggered off in the
brain.
Then how does it happen? Cuz it's
regulated through blood flow.
And I would imagine clitoreral issues
are very similar,
but I don't know that for a fact.
Okay. So what's happening? Endorphins
and other chemicals are coming into the
brain which then for us because we are
like men who have lost our leads and can
never grow new ones,
a chain reaction can come. And what am I
all getting at? I'm getting at that
I'd say the majority of people in SA are
chronic relapsers
or frequent relapsers.
And my assumption is they're relapsing,
feeling the program isn't working,
getting kind of upset, rightfully so,
when in reality they've never been
sober. They're not relapsing. They've
never been sober.
They've never had a period of time, a
detox,
where their brain gets clear,
where the craving phenomenon does not
have to automatically trigger in
because this fellowship is unbelievable
for what you could get away with. in
quotes. So you think
you could be a voyer in this program, be
looking through a window when a woman is
undressing
or a man or whatever,
getting aroused,
getting all stimulated
and not have an orgasm.
and say you're silver.
Now, how do I know that? I hear it time
and again, not voyism, but every other
issue. One issue in particular that a
lot of us old-timers
are not really able to even fathom this.
We came in before
the internet.
I mean, I actually had to go downtown to
the pornos, find some man or some woman
or combinations that I used to do
because I my disease is very advanced
and go through that whole process. I
could I or see some porno at the porno
store had to go there.
Now you just turn on the excuse me the
internet
and what happens and I'll show you how
unsophisticated I am about this. I
finally first time the thought ever
occurred to me when one of these guys
who kept calling me about the internet
and I said to them by the way when
you're doing that stuff looking at it
are you aroused
and he said yeah
and I said oh my god and you expect
yourself
I mean if you talk about Chinese tor
torture.
I mean, water boarding is nothing to me
probably compared to having an erection
on purpose
and not having an orgasm.
You know, that's the perfect example of
the old term for masturbation, self-
abuse.
So here here's this
this concept of what's happening in the
brain.
What is sex with self?
And for me a lot of concepts of sex with
self is involved with a motive.
Why? Why have an erection
if you're not really wanting to get off
in your brain?
Unless it's at night or with your wife.
And you're going to say, "Well, how do
you, you know, what do you do? It just
happens." Well, first of all, that that
has a point to it.
But as my old sponsor Jess would say
about thoughts, the first thought is on
God. The second thought is on me.
So the erection might be on God. But
what do I do with that
in my life? I shift the energy.
Not because I feel it is sin because I
feel it's evil. It's because I don't
want my endorphins and my craving cycle
to get triggered off.
And I move the energy. I picture the
energy and I let it run down my legs
into the ground or I move it up to my
heart and let it out.
I surrender to it.
I don't fight it. Fighting it makes it
worse. This disease fighting anything in
this disease we will always lose this.
It's about surrender
and and self-examination
in inventory.
What What is this for?
Do I feel frightened right now? I've
discovered that my brain deals with fear
by changing it to a sexual thought
automatically. That's my first thought.
So if I'm frightened of terrorists or
I'm frightened of people and coming into
my home and first thought is I picture
that I'm going to hit them or protect my
wife. A lot of times the next thought
will be gee they might want to rape me
or my wife. A thought will come to my
mind and I'll have to say immediately
Harvey there it is.
you know, fear, lust, happiness, lust,
sadness, lust,
whatever it is, my circuits are screwed
up. I'm ill,
sick.
So, it's been very important for me to
define for myself
my bottom line in more detail.
See, I even have my sobriety definition
is even based on my frequency with my
wife because I was a sexually abusive
husband.
And if I have sex a certain amount of
times beyond my bottom line, that's a
loss of my sobriety.
You know, going into locker rooms on
purpose
where men are naked
is a loss of my sobriety.
It's just that simple.
Yeah.
And then I can't fool myself about
motives. There have to be certain
definite reasons. One is you're in a
hotel and it has a bathroom and you go
into the regular bathroom and it's a a
locker room and you don't know, you
know, but if you know then that's a
different story.
I have a part of my sobriety is that if
I walk into walk into a porno shop,
that's a loss of my sobriety. Unless it
was because one of you all called me to
pull him out
and I tried to call someone else to go
with me.
I've had to my to my own self be true.
What is sex with self for me?
Now I want to ask this question. Let's
go back to the voyer. No, let's go back
to the internet.
You're watching T. You're purposefully
going on to the site.
Then you gradually build up that session
till you get
the
site of your choice.
Because it doesn't matter where you
begin, you're going to end
at stuff that
I can't Well, one day maybe you'll hear
my story. I can't tell you. There's
nothing anyone's done that I probably
haven't done three times. Okay? There's
a guy in but guys in Nashville know this
story who would come into the our
meetings and say by the way if anyone is
so depressed today that you're because
of what you've done in your disease and
you've decided to kill yourself be sure
that before you kill yourself you go to
a meeting where Harvey's at say what
you've done so he could tell you how
he's done it at least three times before
and you walk out feeling wonderfully.
But let me tell you,
I hear things
from what
people are watching on the internet
because I don't let you guys or gals,
well, girls I don't talk to that much,
but guys get away with this hidden
language. See, in this fellowship, we've
learned how to hide. We hide behind
words. One word is lust. I've been
lusting today.
Or another word is I've had a sexual
fantasy today. Or I went on the internet
today.
And then say,
well, I don't do that. Lust. What do you
mean you've been lusting? Oh, I've been
um I've been thinking about this woman.
Oh, what have you been thinking about?
And on and on. And if you do it with the
internet, you hear things that I never
knew existed. And that's tough.
Okay.
So
if someone is purposefully looking at
the internet,
they're looking at it. They're going
deeper and deeper in.
They're getting aroused.
They continue on it.
What do we call that?
They're by themselves.
They're having an erection.
What's that called? Help me.
If now if it's not sex with self, it's
not
it's not sex with someone else. It's
not.
In other words, we get these calls
about what should I do with my sobriety
and what should I do with this and what
should I do with that? I'm okay. You
know, you all call it's your sobriety.
It's not going to be any any sweat off
my back.
You have to live with you
and your disease.
But I want to know what you call it.
I'm I'm open to it. Maybe it's not being
called sex,
but I don't know what it is. I If it's
not sex with self, what is it?
And towards the end, I'd like some
volunteers to say what it is that's not
sex with self
because it's so frightening if it is sex
with self and we're ignoring it.
We're having people in leadership
positions. We're having people in
decisionmaking
issues. We're having people sponsoring
people. If you want what I have and are
willing to go to any length to get it,
well, is this what you want?
And are you not drunk afterwards
now?
Maybe not.
But I I I believe people are.
And matter of fact, I don't define their
sobriety form. I I make suggestions that
the next time they do it, they they call
it their
change of sobriety. But I've learned I
it doesn't even pay almost say that
there's people going to do exactly what
their disease tells them to do. Unless
they're actively working their program,
they're just going to get hacked at the
person telling them.
I'm getting more and more into trying
not to help my sponsors with inventories
because I've started to notice I mean I
do it with them but I started to notice
giving someone an inventory about what
they might be doing never really works.
It's when they call me and do 10th steps
and say, "Hey, I've been in greed today.
I've been jealous today. I've been angry
today.
Now, the first time I've had to be told
from my sponsor and other time, you
know, whatever. And we tell each other
these things. Oh, maybe that's greed.
Maybe that's jealousy. But at some
point, it's I who have to make that
inventory, written inventory, and call
my sponsor about it and say, "Wow,
there's that insanity again."
You know,
and very rare I get a call that says,
"Oh god, I am so powerless. It happened
again."
I'll get the call, "Oh, I was just on
the internet and this and that." That
term powerlessness, the disease
connection never comes up
because if we are powerless and I am
powerless.
I am I had sex with people who had
lesions on their body.
I love to get them
because it helps us see how insane
I had sex under the table at a
restaurant with this guy next to me and
his wife was on one side and my wife was
on the other side and we did it under
the tape.
Now, if that's not powerlessness, if
that's not insanity,
what the hell do we call it? If it's not
disease,
and if it were just sin or badness, why
am I not doing it today? I'm the same
sinner.
Why am I not doing it today?
It's because I'm not in the craving
cycle today.
I deal with it like the plague.
It drives my wife nuts at times because
I'm screening my movies and I'm doing
this and I'm jumping up and leaving the
room and
it's not because I'm a goody goodie. Let
me tell you, I'm not a goody goodie.
It's because I know I am powerless.
Once the door opens, I can't close that
door. Whether it's for my wife or my
kids or my religion, I cannot close the
door once it's open.
And the problem in the fellowship to me
today
and for me today is if I'm not careful
of what is the door,
what is the allergen,
what is that first
peanut?
What is the insanity that lets me go and
buy a package if I'm allergic to peanuts
and not look at the package
ingredients?
So this whole disease concept of a
physical allergy accompanied by a mental
obsession
is is so fundamental for me in my
recovery,
but it's not necessarily fundamental
from what I've seen in the fellowship.
I think we're lost a lot. I shouldn't
say we who how can I I know a few people
but who feel this way old-timers but I'm
lost with dealing with people with the
internet. I'm lost.
It's like its own category.
It's not sex with self. It's not sex
with someone else. It's not really sex
because you might not be touching
yourself. I don't I'm It's somewhere
in in another dimension that needs to be
brought into this dimension because
recently I got an iPhone.
It's the coolest thing ever.
I mean, I'm I'm amazed.
And one day it dawned on me, my god, if
I were my active disease,
I wouldn't be eating, sleeping,
and driving the car. I'd be dead. AIDS
would have killed me. Driving the car
would kill me.
And for you people today, I think people
are are going to just start coming up
coming out of the woodwork in in being
helping us
know that there is recovery from
internet pornography.
that it is possible
because you cannot
assume there's not going to be a
computer somewhere.
You know, I often tease people when they
call and complain, "Oh,
you mean I should avoid all those
women?" And I said, "What are you
complaining about?" 50% of the
population. I do it with women, men,
animals. I can't be around anybody.
You know that bottle of booze you find
up in the North Pole that the AA book
talks about about alcoholic mentality.
Sexaholic mentality.
What is sexaholic mentality? How do we
get around it? we get around it. And
someone recently has been sharing with
me even further on this disease model
and how some people are saying how many
months it takes
for those endorphins to get out and how
if you do almost anything it triggers up
again and the circuits never relearn
pathways.
And you know, this sounds a little
scientific.
And where the heck's God in all this,
you know, well, God is everywhere in
this,
you know. I I couldn't be here today
without my higher power saying, "My God,
this guy,
look at him in the pornos doing what
he's doing."
and I love him so much. Anyway, I'm
going to get him to essay.
You know, the miracle of this
and how my higher power is so loving and
can move so many strings of
whatever cosmic strings if he wants or
doesn't want.
that he has permitted us to learn from
each other.
Okay, I'm going to wind down in a few
moments and then take questions. I see a
hand.
And that my higher power
talks to me through you.
And what I learned from you is
tremendous. He just,
you know, my AA sponsor used to
some some street person would come to a
meeting and about a week later my
sponsor would say
quote what the street person said. And I
said, "Cerry, how did you remember what
this guy was a street person? They've
been there once, never came back
drinking. He said, "Oh, I have to listen
to every word everyone says in the
meeting because I never know who God
picked that day to talk to me through."
Okay.
And so I really haven't talked about
what is sex with self very much.
But I've asked a lot of questions.
I wrote an article. This is like that
the skit last night. I wrote an article
in the there's an article
in one of the essays or the best of
essay talking about what is sex itself.
I wrote it some years ago. I've been
really evolving from it and thinking
more and more about what it means. And
the way I did it then is still how I'm
doing it. This is about you all.
This is about bringing this topic up,
getting it out of being a secret,
not going not hiding behind that awful
statement that we read meeting after
meeting. It's awful about we shouldn't
be explicit. Raise your hand. Tough
shit. If you can't handle it, walk out
of the room.
Walk out of the room. If you can't say
it other than if it were about minors or
something. If you can't say it. Now, how
do we protect ourselves? B. We're very
explicit at our meetings. We do the
30-day imperative. We have people with
30 days or more sobriety speaking. So,
if a guy has just left a porno shop or
been with a prostitute 20 minutes before
and comes in and is explicit, they're
drunk.
And that's not good for the fellowship.
And then you don't need one hand. You
need every hand up.
So then everyone could leave and he's
left there till he so up.
But other than that, if someone has been
sober for a while
and we assume everyone has this
wonderful intimate relationship with
their sponsor, a lot of people don't
have sponsors.
The meetings are what they got.
And so on that
gr
Oh, I get so passionate. It's just
ridiculous. Can you imagine my wife
having to live with me all these years?
Um, but I'm better than I used to be and
not as well as I'm going to get.
And we sure have a loving God to have
produced this conference for us to give
us an opportunity to talk about this
stuff. So, thanks a lot. Okay.
The guy back there whose hand was up
originally. No. Yeah. Hit you.
You were speaking Harvey and you asked
what is it?
If I don't use that much porn on the
internet or wherever, I'm going to
masturbate. I'm not going to accuse
myself. But uh our literature answers
the question. I believe 192. It says the
real problem for all of us, single,
married, man, woman, internet, no
internet from whatever lifestyle is one
and the same. A spiritual misconnection.
And how I'm not connected to the one who
has all power when I'm on the internet
or looking at a magazine or have fantasy
in my head about the woman down the
hallway.
Absolutely. And then it goes on to say,
"Better to acknowledge what we really
are
than hide behind the bag of a sobriety
date, cheat ourselves, and threaten our
union with one another." And that's I go
to AA as well, and they hammer on the
physical allergy, and it's the first
drink that gets you drunk. I make a
decision in my heart to get drunk first
before I drink in that image. And I
don't, my sponsor is just real adamant
about letting go of the lust and fantasy
in my head. even labels. If I'm trying
to control what you think, even if it's
not sexual, that's fantasy. I'm getting
high off of your approval. And that
approval, attention, affection stuff is
what leads to the sexual stuff.
Thanks. Because you brought up something
that I wanted to mention. And in AA,
they say it beautifully. Oh, the
person's sober in alcohol, but he's on a
on a marijuana maintenance program.
And um and I'm so glad you brought this
up because I really did not want to
sound like what I am
a militant in many ways but
sexual thoughts are not permitted in my
head.
The first thought is on God and then I
do poor guys in this program I sponsor I
don't sponsor in Nashville. They get
calls from me during the day. Hey, I
just had this image. I cast out images
the second or whenever they come in
because I cannot give myself a motion
picture in my head.
It's gone. I'm too sick. I could have a
two-dimensional
photograph that happens to come in. I
sponsor a guy for 20 years at least. His
sobriety definition is he can't have
sexual fantasies.
Okay, good. That's it. Thank you.
Yes.
Harvey Dave Jacksonville, can you can
you give a couple
examples in your experience
where there's been what I would call a
progressive
revelation?
What I'd like I can but you know I think
these answer things is not necessarily
good for my ego. So I because I continue
to be center. So I'd like Mike to come
up if you would. You read my mind, Mike.
And can you take some of these questions
or give us some response about what your
feelings of sex itself is?
I'm Mike Sexaholic.
Um, wonderful talk. I mean, I've heard
it before, but it is developing and it
it's it's very very important. uh your
question. Uh one of the things that some
of the guys at St. Teresa's in Chicago
are starting to do and I'm not sure how
conscious they are of the allergy, you
know, the the concept, but they're
they're figuring it out. they may just
be using different words is people are
beginning to say and I'll use an example
of one member who we do a short share at
the beginning of every meeting which
would basically say the nature of your
addiction how long you're sober and um
what this guy says and I won't remember
all of it is he says uh for me
just getting a woman in the car whether
she's a hooker or not
jogging in certain communities he's is a
jogger, but there are certain places he
knows if I'm jogging here, it ain't
exercise I'm looking for, you know. Um,
and I don't know, Pete, if you can
remember the rest of it, but this
particular member has a list. And in his
short chair, he says, and here's what he
doesn't say. He doesn't say, um, this is
in addition to the sobriety definition
because a lot of people say it that way,
and that's wrong. What he says is, "For
me, this is the sobriety definition or
something like that. For me, the
sobriety, here's what he said. For me,
the sobriety definition includes not
getting a hooker or any other woman in
my car, whether we act out or not."
That's his exact quote. Um, not jogging
in certain communities. And he's got
more. Um,
I think, you know, Royy's point is we
don't want to get nitpicking that every
time you have a sexual thought, did I
lose my sobriety? Cuz we're all
obsessive enough. We'll drive each other
nuts for the rest of our lives.
But on the other side of that extreme is
what Harvey's talking about. Well, then
therefore, anything goes as long as I
haven't physically touched myself, which
is also absurd. And so what we're
learning uh is,
you know, if a guy's a newcomer and he's
not masturbating or she's not
masturbating, that's great. But then you
begin to hear the patterns of what's
going on in people's heads. And after a
while, you start to say, you know, Joe
or whoever, uh, I know you you're saying
you're sober and and you know, but
you've been around 6 months now and you
keep reporting that you're spending time
on the internet and um I don't know,
Harvey and I probably have a
disagreement about how explicit you get
in the meeting, but certainly with the
sponsors and after the meeting and in
the conversation, um, we would say,
"What do you mean?" And then he's
telling you, "Oh, I look at
pornography." And my first question is
always, "For how long?" A few minutes.
Nobody wants to tell you.
What does a few minutes mean? I a few
minutes has meant anywhere from 3 or 4
minutes to 3 or 4 hours. One guy told me
four hours. I said, "That's not a few
minutes.
That's 240 minutes."
So, I think what we're beginning to come
to, and we don't have any answers, but
is no, we don't want to nitpick about
every time something pops into your
head, did you lose your We don't want to
sit around and talk about did you did
you lose your sobriety or didn't you? We
don't want to drive ourselves nuts, but
at the same time, we don't want to be
living lies.
And hopefully as sponsors, what we can
begin to do is guide people to those
deeper truths about what's going on in
their hearts and in their heads. Get
them to talk clearly about what that
really is and get see if and and
Harvey's right about one thing. If I say
to Harvey,
you know, Harvey, that internet thing,
you want to you might want to think
about including that as part of your
sobriety definition. I've just set up a
fight. All I can say is I don't know if
that's a loss of sobriety or not,
Harvey, but it looks like a duck and it
walks like a duck. And then let Harvey
be the one, you know, let the spons be
the one to finally figure it out. I'm
just holding the mirror up and saying,
you know, you keep talking about looks
and glances. That's a classic looks and
glances. I'm struggling with looks and
glances. Well, of course I struggle with
looks and glances. But what does it mean
to be struggling with looks and glances?
For me, it means maybe I lasted 5
seconds instead of three. But for
someone else, it might mean they sat
there all day staring.
Well, you know, again, don't want to
knit. Well, which guy's sober? Let's
nitpick. Who cares? But
are you for me? Here's the test.
I suddenly get emotional whenever I talk
about these two people. I have a
20-year-old son and a 13-year-old
daughter. Here's the test. Would I
without any compunction say to my
20-year-old son and 13-year-old
daughter, guess what I was doing today?
Then all of a sudden, this foggess,
hey, James, 20-year-old son, hey, James,
I want to teach you something about
sexuality. You know what I did today? I
stayed on the internet for two and a
half hours, but I didn't touch myself.
you know, um
I was at a play the other night and I've
been going to this series of plays in
Chicago for years, so I don't check it
out cuz it's always been safe. But sure
enough,
nudity and then something that wasn't,
but it was close enough and it was
triggering all my buttons. And who did I
bring to the play? my wife, my
13-year-old daughter, and her one of her
best friends whose parents trust us.
Probably not. Probably not anymore.
Suddenly, this moment comes and I do
believe there's a God because I happen
to be sitting in a seat. I'm like, "Oh,
we didn't get the best seats this time
because we had to change our tickets."
There's a post in my way. Thank God
because I knew what was coming. I didn't
ha I knew what was coming. I didn't have
to wait to see it. I could sense it. And
I just positioned myself so that the
pole protected me and my sobriety. And
as this is unfolding, I'm hearing my
family. I'm not saying anything, but I'm
just protecting myself behind the wall.
I hear my daughter three seats down go,
"Oh my god."
And I hear my wife saying to me very
quietly, "Don't look.
And then afterward, we're in the car on
the way back. Well, how'd everybody like
the play? I say
my daughter's 13-year-old friend says,
"Well, it was kind of R-rated."
But my point is, I could have had the
greatest excuse in the world. Well, I
didn't know. And here I was. I didn't
want to look. I didn't want to look
because I didn't want to be sitting
there lusting with my 13-year-old
daughter three seats down and and I
could go into one of my big struggles.
Well, it's art, you know, and it's and
it's and I I thought this isn't about
whether these people should be doing the
play this way. This is about
me staying sober.
Uh now, I am going to write the theater
and I am going to complain. Not that
they did it that way, but in the thing
that they send out two weeks in advance,
they didn't say, "Fair warning for, you
know, the people I take to this plate
are either fellow recovering sex, my
teenage children, or until she recently
died, my 90-year-old mother-in-law, who
had she not died of cancer, would have
died seeing that play."
Ah, I that's where we disagree. I'm not
going to say
Nothing explicit here.
So anyway, I I I don't know if what if
I'm done or what I'm supposed to do.
Question. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. I have a question Harvey or
Mike. Uh I'm Slava Sexaholic from
Atlanta. I
Oh, sorry. Come on. Use the mic.
Oh, wow. Being put on the spot, I guess.
Uh I'm Slava sexaholic. Uh you uh
referred to alluded to your sobriety
definition including your wife and for
me it's a big concern. And I've been in
the fellowship for over a couple years
and I get I can get a fantasy that
involves my wife and and I think it the
program says it's okay but I know but I
have I'm kind of fuzzy about that and I
have a gut feeling that it may not be
okay and and uh and sometimes I get an
idea that I might have to run you know
away from my wife and and I'm very
scared because I want to have uh I want
to have a family. I have kids and I love
them. Uh, so I want to be healthy, but
you know, uh, there there she is. She's
just like any other woman, you know,
sometimes. So, if you can elaborate on
that.
Appreciate it.
Um,
I treat the day after
our intimacy
like any other lust issue. If I flash
anything about what happened the night
before, I you treat it like any other
sexual fantasy or lust thought and I
work my program on it. Just because
she's my wife doesn't mean when I'm not
with her I could do that successfully.
Now maybe some others can't. I can't do
it successfully. So that is a no no for
me.
replaying anything I have been intimate
with my wife about. So that's my
when Harvey was talking about the the
things we don't talk about. I I totally
agree. We don't talk much about sex or
the lack thereof in marriage. And in
this program you will find people who
think the ideal is no sex in marriage
ever because that's how you stay
lustfree. And you will find people who
at the other extreme say, "Look, as long
as it's with my wife, it's none of your
business." Which is a great way to lust.
If it's nobody's business, you're dead.
You know, um I don't think this one is
one sizefits-all.
I just don't. I think different
marriages are going to have to deal with
this differently. But I do think like
everything else with us, if you keep it
in the light, if you do if if you talk
about it, and we don't talk. In fact, a
few years ago, Harvey had me down here
to talk about sex and marriage. And I
don't think I knew that's what I was
talking about till I got here. I
probably wouldn't have come. And uh and
I know and I it's probably on a tape
somewhere. I I had to talk about, you
know, my sex life with my wife. I will
allow myself what I would call brief
moments of either anticipation or memory
because they don't feel lustful to me.
They don't feel objectifying to me. But
on the other hand, I know where I can go
with it. So after about 10 seconds, I'm
like, "Okay, so you're you're looking
forward to something or yeah, it's a
nice memory." But I don't dwell on it.
That's just me. Um, the other thing is
today I rarely have a problem with the
image of another person coming up when
I'm intimate with my wife. But earlier
on I did and the way I worked through it
and again every marriage is is is a
little different but the way I worked
through it is I would just say to my
wife I need to stop for a minute and
depending how bad it was I might get up,
go to the bathroom and then come back
and say I thought tonight was my night
but it's not. or I might come back and
now now I'm fine. Or I might just roll
over for 10 seconds, say a prayer, and
say, "Thanks for the break. I'm ready to
go." Um, you know, and and to just in
that moment be you. That's intimacy.
Whether we have sex or not,
the intimacy was and I didn't have to
tell her cuz I'm thinking, remember that
girl we met at the restaurant? I don't
have to tell her what she's not an
idiot.
She knows it's okay. the guy's
struggling. I don't have to tell her
what I'm struggling with. If it's bad
enough, I'll pick up the phone and call
one of you and tell you what I'm
struggling with. But I had to be honest
in the moment because a lot of guys who
are struggling have never had sexual
intimacy. They've had sexual
experiences,
you know, by the thousands. They've
never had sexual intimacy the way they
fuel their their uh sex in their
marriage so that their wives think
they're okay. Talk about sick is by
lusting over somebody else while they're
supposedly making love to their wives.
Now, you know, are they technically
sexually sober or not? I don't know. I
get crazy when I get into that. All I
know is it's probably not a good idea.
Well, you know, I think we only had an
hour.
Yeah, I think so.
So, we need to close, but some of us
will stay around and anyone who wants to
stay around if they're not moving the
room, we will. So, uh,
it's nice to be talking together.
Yeah, it really is. Thank you. Thank
you.
Whose Father?
Our Father, who art in heaven, be thy
name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven. Give us
this day our daily bread, and forgive us
our trespasses as we forgive those who
trespass against us. And lead us not
into temptation, but deliver us from
evil. For thine is the kingdom, the
power, and the glory forever and ever.
Amen. Keep coming.