Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan
Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by
night, all day. Gentlemen, great to see you.
Yeah, put them on, slap them on. What's happening?
Good to see you gentlemen again. Taking off.
Good to see you as well. One more time. Yeah,
one more time. So, what is the latest? Give me
the latest. Where are we at? Why don't you take
it, Brian? You are the most current on where
we are, what's going on. Man, there has been
a lot of stuff happen in the 15 months since
we were here. I mean, like, stunning amount of
stuff. So let's not waste any time. Tell them
where we're at. All right. Well, the last time
we came to visit with you, I believe, was on
December the 27th of 2024. We were just on the
front end of having organized 30 committed Texans
whose own families had had experiences related
to trauma, addiction, alcoholism, and the wounds
of war, who, after hearing a plan that was developed
for the state of Kentucky to bring Ibogaine to
the American people as an FDA -approved medication
and breakthrough treatment for addiction and
trauma, committed themselves to using their time,
their talent, and their network. to achieve what
had never been done before, and that was to convince
an individual state to undertake drug development
to create a therapeutic medical breakthrough
for public health crises within its borders that
are representative of the national reality. After
you released the interview with us on January
2, 2025, we pursued a five -and -a -half -month
blistering campaign to convince 188... blank
slate Texas legislators to fund the single largest
psychedelic research and medical development
project in history, that being the $50 million
Texas Ibogaine Initiative. We had the assistance
of some in -state allies, one of which was Texans
for Greater Mental Health, led by a dear friend
and brother of mine, Logan Davidson, who was
my right hand, going to meet with legislators
continuously while I set up shop at a hotel here
in Halston and lived here just about part -time,
wearing the shoe leather off, sweating, and making
sure that everybody who needed to be introduced,
educated, and motivated to get behind this would
do so. At the end of this five and a half months,
we secured the votes of yes of 181 out of 188
legislators between the Texas House of Representatives
and State Senate. There was one individual who
we had to persuade at the 11th hour to get behind
this project. On May the 14th, 2025, just 36
hours before the Texas budget was finalized,
This bill that would create the first unified
FDA drug development trial with Ibogaine in U
.S. history was not funded. I woke up that morning,
and I believe very much in keeping your prayers
in the closet, as Jesus taught, and not getting
out there parading about it. But on that morning,
I got a call, and it was, hey, we're getting
to the 11th hour. We don't have money to secure
this. It may not make it. We've done everything
that we can. And I just, I literally got down
on my hands and knees and said, God, please let
this happen. And if it cannot happen, help me
understand why. Three hours later, I got a telephone
call asking if I could go and meet with the Texas
House Speaker and Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick.
I went at 4 .30 in the afternoon on May the 14th
and spent an hour with these two gentlemen going
back and forth about what this project was, why
it was so existentially necessary for Texas and
the country. And on Friday morning, May the 16th
at 10 a .m., we got a text message from Lieutenant
Governor Patrick confirming that he would approve
and fully fund the Texas Sign -Begin Initiative.
As we walk in here today, literally, just 10
minutes before we walked into your studio, I
can confirm that the great state of Texas is
going to fully fund the Texas Ibogaine Initiative,
originally intended to be a public -private partnership,
but now has decided on its own to commit. a full
$100 million to launch the development of Ibogaine
all the way through the FDA's drug development
process for the benefit of the American people.
To do so on its own, without any drug development
partner, and to do it for the good of humanity.
That's phenomenal. So what did you have to say
to Dan Patrick? convinced of this. And kudos
to him for doing this. Well, I had some very
wonderful advocates who preceded my meeting.
Was he skeptical? Oh, he was completely disengaged
from the process, highly skeptical, as we learned
through intermediaries. But we had two wonderful
brothers on mission who happened to be twins,
Marcus and Morgan Luttrell. I know Marcus very
well. Marcus and Morgan Luttrell reached out
to the lieutenant governor. They spoke to him
very movingly and personally about their own
experiences with Ibogaine, what it had done not
just to save their lives, but what it was doing
to save the lives of warfighters who had come
to the end of being able to live. And as they
explained to him what it did for them and what
it has done for their brothers and sisters -at
-arms who've returned to war, to broken government
systems that can do nothing to cure what ails
them at their core, he was persuaded to have
an open -minded conversation. And through that
conversation on May the 14th, we essentially
went through what Science suggests all the powers
of the most sophisticated molecule on the planet
to resolve physiological substance dependence
and thereby create psychology within the human
being whereby they believe they have ownership
of themselves and their future and that that
future will be one defined by choice rather than
compulsion. And the most powerful aspect of the
Ibogaine argument, not just for the lieutenant
governor and house speaker, but for most of these
legislators who voted yes, is... The experience
endorsed by many that Ibogaine confirms without
question the reality of our individual human
divinity. And that is the greatest truth conveyed
by this fabulous plant. Well put. And I don't
think it's just Ibogaine that confirms that.
I think you could say the same about many other
psychedelic drugs that are unjustly maligned
and treated as if they're an escape from reality.
But in the interest of this being a standalone
podcast for people who don't know what Ibogaine
is and don't understand the efficacy of it and
how unbelievably effective it is, especially
treating addiction, could you please just go
over that? Yes, sir. So Ibogaine is an alkaloid
that is derived from the Iboga shrub. The Iboga
shrub originates in the central Congo basin.
Its native country is modern -day Gabon. It is
the mother country of the Iboga shrub, which
has been used for centuries in the spiritual
and cultural traditions of the Buwiti, a group
of spiritualists who include the Pygmies as well
as the Bantu tribes that live there. Gabon. In
the early 60s, it was discovered that Ibogaine
and Iboga had a significant interruption effect
on opioid addiction. There was an individual
who had been addicted to heroin for a number
of years. They took Ibogaine, and not only did
they not experience any withdrawal when they
stopped taking heroin, they stopped having any
desire to use any drug whatsoever. This touched
off 60 years of open -label field studies that
are mountains high and decades wide that firmly
establish that Ibogaine has a unique and singular.
interruption capacity on physiological substance
dependency, whether that's opioids, alcohol,
methamphetamine, cocaine, or tobacco. Recent
evidence also suggests that it has a significant
interruption effect on compulsive behaviors,
anything that kind of impacts that brain's dopamine
system and produces a rush. Particularly gambling.
Yes, sir. Now, in 2018, U .S. Special Forces
special operators started going to Mexico for
treatment of symptoms of traumatic brain injury
expressed through treatment -resistant depression,
anxiety, and suicidality. Many of these veterans
had gone through the VA system. They had been
given an unbelievable amount of synthetic pharmacology
that, in their end effect, essentially anesthetizes
the soul. and slowly euthanizes the body and
they were at the end so as they were going to
Mexico and would get Ibogaine treatment they
came back with these just unbelievably just powerful
recovery results that seemed too good to be true
so there were some scientists at Stanford University
that were funded by a philanthropist who wanted
to understand what was going on. And so what
we have come to learn through a Stanford research
study on traumatic brain injury for vets is that
Ibogaine has remarkable neuroregenerative capacities
on the brain that are unheard of in the annals
of Western science. And while information is
still very small in amount and preliminary, there
are individuals who have had Ibogaine treatment
for not just traumatic brain injury, but for
multiple sclerosis, Lyme disease, Parkinson's
disease, post -surgical complications related
to the removal of brain tumor who endorse a restoration
of functionality and an ability to live that
are otherworldly. As we recognize that the opportunities
to improve the human condition at scale are multi
-lifetime in appearing, we believe that we have
found one of those. And if we're going to do
justice... to the human species, it is incumbent
upon us to take what appears to be a promising
therapeutic improvement and deliver it with speed
through the U .S. medical systems. And that's
what Governor Perry and I have founded Americans
for Ibogaine to do. Just that. Achieve the moonshot
of our time. And that is to bring Ibogaine medicine
to the American people as quickly as possible.
Well said. And thank you again. Governor Perry,
because if it wasn't for your involvement in
this, I think a lot of people would be far more
skeptical. You know, you being a former distinguished
governor of the state who is a Republican, generally
speaking, most people think of Republicans being
anti psychedelics and that this whole thing is
just a bunch of people trying to escape reality
and poison their mind and, you know, tune out
of society and become losers. That's the general
consensus of people that are just, for lack of
a better term, ignorant of the effects of these
substances. They don't understand it. But if
it wasn't for you, your open -mindedness, your
willingness to engage in this and try to understand
it and to speak to these veterans, I don't think
people would be taken into seriously. So thank
you. Well, and thank you. As I've watched you
over the last 15 months, it seemed like every
six weeks or so, you'd have a guest on here and
you'd be talking about Ibogaine in particular
and what is the progress that we're making. What
comes up so often. Well, and it should. It should.
It should because this truly – this is not what
I came into the world for. This is not what I
came to politics for. This is what – I got led
to this through that relationship with Marcus
and, in turn, Morgan Luttrell and seeing those
two boys literally, particularly Marcus, on the
doorstep of committing suicide. When he came
to live with us at the governor's mansion in
2007, we had met the year before just by the
grace of God. And I told him, I said, if you're
ever through Austin, come by and see me, knowing
that. The chances of that would be pretty slim.
He knocked on that guard door in May of 07 and
said, the governor said, if I was ever through
here, come by and see him. They called. I let
him in for dinner. And my wife, who's a nurse,
she recognized this young man who was really
troubled, addicted to opioids, masking it with
alcohol, really sick. And for the next two and
a half years, he lived with us at the governor's
residence. Wow. And that started this long journey,
literally, with him and trying to find ways to
heal him. We sent him to a host of different
places, Carrick Brain Center in Dallas. We sent
him to what's called now Axios. athlete's performance
in those days, but a great rehab facility down
in the panhandle of Florida. And they helped
him conquer or helped him manage the opioid addiction.
I will suggest to you until he was treated with
Ibogaine, which did clean that completely away
from him some years later. But the point is,
he really struggled. and he has become like our
son. As a matter of fact, I talked to him this
morning. He said, be sure and tell Joe Howdy
for me. He just thinks the world of you as well.
I talked to his brother the day before. They
understand how powerful this compound is from
the standpoint of treating post -traumatic stress,
traumatic brain injury, addictions. I mean, this,
and as I became convinced, One of the things
that I will say that I've been – I've been open
to change just like criminal justice reform.
In the early 2000s, I was kind of like lock their
ass up, throw the key under the jail. You break
the law in the state of Texas. Here's how we
treat you. And I had a district judge in Fort
Worth, John Cruz, a Democrat district judge who
I knew and had been friends with. He said, Governor,
we got a program here that allows these individuals
who have broken the law, you know, they've maybe,
you know, got caught with an illegal substance
or what have you. And rather than sending them
to jail, sending them to the penitentiary where
they become professional criminals, we give them
a second chance. We put them in a rehab program.
We put them in a treatment center. We put them
in a boot camp. Give them these options rather
than sending them to prison where they're going
to become professional criminals and the recidivism
rate is going to continue on. You know, I'm kind
of like, no, I'm tough on crime. That's what
us Republicans do. But it really got me thinking.
I mean, I am curious minded about. concepts and
ideas. So that brought me to having conversations.
And, you know, long story short, that single
conversation led to Texas leading the nation
with criminal justice reform. Texas Public Policy
Foundation that now Secretary of Agriculture
Brooke Rollins was operating in the mid to late.
2000s. They came on board, saw this, supported
it. We passed it through a very Republican, very
conservative legislature. And Texas led the nation
in criminal justice reform, saved us billions
of dollars. We stopped building prisons. We stopped
sending people to prison where they were becoming
professional criminals. So that template, if
you will, was what we took to Donald Trump in
2018. And he was just like me initially. I'm
tough on crime. But he was open. He was curious.
Brooke Rollins, interestingly, had come up and
was his domestic policy advisor at that time.
And she made the pitch and he was open. And that
conversation led to him being open to federal.
criminal justice reform. And today, there are
people who, I mean, you may have different ideas
about President Trump and what have you. I know
that's the case. But on this issue of criminal
justice reform, this man was curious, he was
open -minded, and he's made a real difference
in people's lives following the Texas model.
The reason I share that with you as an example,
that's where I was on these compounds, these
drugs, these psychedelics. I mean, I grew up
in the 60s. Timothy O 'Leary, using LSD, marijuana,
any of that kind of stuff. I mean, it was anathema
to me. Absolutely and totally. I don't have anything
to do with it. This is crazy stuff. You get in
trouble. They'll throw you in jail. You'll jump
off of buildings. Every story that you can imagine
that people – and then think about from the 60s
forward how – I went into the Air Force. They
– we took drug tests at least monthly. So the
idea of being involved with a drug was just totally
and absolutely not on my radar screen. These
are bad things and we're reinforced. in the 80s
with Mrs. Reagan. Just say no to drugs. Here's
your brain on drugs. I mean, we have been browbeat
as a society for 60 years. And when you add to
it what Nixon did, President Nixon did in the
late 60s, early 70s, with his war on drugs, he
hated hippies, he hated blacks, and one of the
ways you could go after them was to go make these
compounds Schedule I. which he did. Schedule
1 says there is no medical purpose for it, and
it is highly addictive. Ibogaine fits neither
of those. Ibogaine is not an addictive compound
by any sense of the imagination. It's also absolutely
not a recreational compound. At all. It's not
something that someone's going to do at a party.
We are proving without a doubt. to the Texas
legislature, to legislatures across this country,
in Mississippi, in Tennessee, in Arizona, West
Virginia, that it does have a medical purpose,
that there are some extraordinary things that
can happen for their citizens who have PTSD,
who have sexual trauma, who have addictions.
I mean, saving lives by the thousands. Hundreds
of thousands, I will suggest to you, when this
is approved across the country and we see it
as a relatively easily studied and accessed by
medical care compound. So that story of seeing
these two young men who have given everything,
literally, up to willing to give their lives.
And a lot of their friends did for our freedoms
and our liberties in this country. And for us
to say to them, oh, sorry, you can't have access
to this because, you know, they're, you know,
President Nixon said this is bad stuff back 60
years ago. And it was taken off the shelf as
a schedule one drug put over here. And for 60
years, Americans have suffered through so many
different. eras, the late 90s, when the Sackler
family and Purdue Pharma comes along. And we
literally, I think one of the most demonic things
I've seen in my public life is this family who
used oxycodone and sold it to America as this
be -all to end -all. And then our federal government
in the mid -2000s We didn't know how to deal
with these young men who would be put in these
horrible conditions and positions of being at
war time after time after time, rotation after
rotation, tempos that we'd never seen before
in the history of mankind, I'll suggest to you.
I mean, Joe, we were at war for 20 years, 20
years during that period of time. You know, special
operators that were deployed eight, nine, ten
times. And then they come home, and the governor
gives them a sack of opioids, and that makes
them feel crappy, and they mask it with alcohol.
And we sit around and go, why did Bobby kill
himself? Well, because the government failed
in its great responsibility to take care of these
young men and women, in my opinion. So we owe
it to them. As a matter of fact, a dear friend
of mine who just passed away within the last
two days, he had worked with me for, gosh, 30
years. And when he first saw that I was getting
involved with this psychedelic drug, this Ibogaine
compound, And we were having a conversation.
He said, you need to be really careful with that.
You've got a great reputation. You spent 40 years
building that reputation up. He said, you don't
want to throw it away on some cockamamie idea
here. And I told him, I said, well, I don't think
I'm doing that. I've studied this pretty intently.
I've talked to a host of different people. And
I said. So I'm comfortable about the science
here that I'm seeing and what have you. And I
think it's worth going forward with. I said,
Ray, their lives are not worth more than my reputation.
And that's what kind of continues to drive me.
There are people that still kind of say, why
are you doing this? Because I believe in it.
I mean, I believe it to the point, Joe, that
I'm willing to. Risk my reputation. This episode
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J -R -E. I don't think you're risking your reputation
at all. I think that's foolish thinking. I think
it's people that don't understand the times.
This is a different world. We're living in a
world of information now, and you can't go by
these false narratives that were adopted in the
1970s. And we're winning. I mean, I'm telling
you what Americans for Ibogaine has done. And,
you know, we started out, I tell people, I said,
you talk about a small group of people. I think
there were six of us. He's the CEO. I'm the chairman.
We got Dr. Rulon, who's the secretary, and Claire
Stapleton, the communications person, and then
Marcus and Melanie Luttrell. Marcus's wife, are
the other two members of our little board. And
we were this small little group kind of going
along and doing what we were doing. We were successful
in the Texas legislature and what have you. But
it's exploded now. We have ambassadors, Americans
for Ibogaine ambassadors all over the United
States now. People have seen what we've been
able to do in Texas. Mississippi followed suit.
They sent their governor a piece of legislation.
I want you to talk about that. We're going to
do the roll call here. Yeah, and share with Joe
and his audience just the great progress that's
being made. And quite frankly, I think about
Michael Dell when he was selling computers out
of the – trunk of his car back in the late 80s
and and then his college dormitory afi kind of
found itself like that um just a few months ago
and i'm not trying to say that you know we're
dell computer today but we are growing at such
a leaps and bounds and and you know and having
the resources that we need to be able to put
our people in various places i mean he's the
You were in Cabo. I want you to tell them about
the group that you met with in Cabo. I mean,
just 200 of these extraordinary people down there.
He travels all over the country. And we have
to have the resources to be able to do that.
So I hope the folks that are listening go to
Americans for Ibogaine. You know how to tell
them how to do that and help this organization
because this is what I'm going to do the rest
of my life. I'm 76 years old, and this is what
I hope the Lord gives me a lot of years to make
a difference because I know for a fact that what
we're doing today, what you're helping us with,
is making a difference. And if we can get these
clinical trials to the conclusion, and, you know,
thank you. to the Lieutenant Governor and to
the Speaker for what they committed to today.
I mean, to know that we're going to be able to
go forward now with these clinical trials, to
show the world exactly what we know, but so that
the naysayers out there, the skeptic, can look
at that and go, you know what? You can get 85
percent of the people who are hooked on opioids
clean in 72 hours. Isn't that amazing? I mean,
that's such a stunning thing to me. Dr. Gull
Dolan, we were at South by Southwest a week and
a half ago. She was sitting on the stage. She's
an MD, PhD, was at Johns Hopkins. She's over
at Cal Berkeley now. And she gave a little. primer,
if you will, on the different psychedelics. There's
a critical period that the mind opens up and
you're able to go in and, if you will, the medicine
treats the mind, I think, from my Aggie, you
know, non -pharmaceutical, non -scientific mind
here, but to go in and repair, reset the brain.
The technical word is neuroplasticity. But ketamine
has a critical period. I think she said 48 to
72 hours. Psilocybin has a critical period from
14 to 28 days. I think I'm pretty close on these.
But ibogaine, the critical period. The time when
that neuroplasticity is active and the brain
can be trained, healed, reset is from 90 to 120
days. And then with the addiction, opioids, which
I happen to think is one of the most addictive
substances that's out there. I mean, this is
some horrible stuff. This very current event
with Tiger Woods and Tiger's accident. He had
Oxycontin in his – I'm not judging here, but
I'm just kind of saying that may – when I ran
for president in 2011, I'd had major back surgery
in July. I announced that I was running for president
in August. I had six weeks to try to get over
that major back surgery. And I had a terrible
condition called a neurological hyperfusion in
my right leg. I've never had a pain like that.
Felt like a blowtorch going down my right leg.
And they gave me Oxycontin. And I was taking
that to cover up the pain. I was taking Ambien
to go to sleep at night. And I was taking some
stuff called Provigil to get back up in the morning
and be focused. I laugh about it now. I'm surprised
I did as well as I did in that presidential effort
in 2011. Hell, forgetting that one thing, that
third thing in that debate. Hell, I'm surprised
I could remember any of them. Knowing what I
know now about OxyContin and the incredibly nasty,
addictive nature that it has. I mean, this stuff
is just poison. Ibogaine. In 48 to 72 hours after
one dose, one oral application of this compound,
and that addiction is gone. Not only is that
addiction gone, Joe, but Stanford has done functional
MRIs on an addicted. opioid brain, and then treatment
with Ibogaine. And they have shown that brain
from the addicted look that those experts, those
postdocs that look at this, to a normal brain,
a normal brain scan in 72 hours. If you were
to go through the normal process, of healing
yourself of opioid addiction through an abstinence
program, it would take you 18 months. And there
are very few, I'm going to say, single -digit
people that are successful in being able to do
that. But think about that. We've got a compound
here that has the ability to heal people of opioid
addiction in 48 to 72 hours. And we're not doing
everything that we can in our power to make that
available? I mean, what the hell is wrong with
us? How bad you got to hate people to not make
that available? And with two doses, it's even
more spectacular. 98%. That is amazing. 98%.
That is truly amazing. There's nothing even remotely
like it with standard practice addiction therapy.
Nothing. Nothing. You know, he mentioned the
Americans for Ibogaine. We have ambassadors.
And, Joe, what you really helped us do on January
2nd of 25 was create a movement. Our organization
is the custodian of that movement. We are a public
policy and advocacy organization, and Governor
Perry mentions keeping me on the road. Wherever
there are state leaders, citizens of conviction
and influence, whether that is California, whether
it's Massachusetts, or whether it's Alabama,
we exist to plant the seed of a scientific understanding
of a public policy framework. and of a spiritual
understanding of the significance of what we
have in our hands here, an opportunity to improve
the human condition at scale. And while we have
talked tightly about Ibogaine's impact on substance
dependency and upon the wounds of war, our ambassadors
reflect essentially the universal human condition
and the way in which individuals who have tried
every way to overcome various forms of trauma
and debility find as the last step a redemptive
restoration through Ibogaine treatment. It is
not for everybody. It should not be a first resort.
It is an exceptionally powerful medication that
comes with a series of side effects that are
highly unpleasant, as you previously mentioned.
One of the selling points, ironically, in the
Texas legislature was to say, if your idea of
a good time is being in a state of semi paralysis
for 12 to 16 hours and throwing up continuously
through the process. You're going to have a real
good time. And if there is the equivalent of
being brought to the judgment throne of God on
this side of life, it is an Ibogaine experience.
That seemed to motivate a lot of support, especially
for those who subscribe to puritanical notions
of punishment for wrongdoing. That's not what
I'm here to advocate, but certainly it is not
fun. But what we know is that, for instance,
we have two fashion model twins whose father,
sexually abused them for a decade. And the results
of that horrific experience that they shared
produced all kinds of psychological maladies
that included an eating disorder for one, persistent
neuroses in the other. They tried every form
of talk therapy. They tried every psychotherapy
modality known to try to overcome that. And it
was Ibogaine that restored their lives and their
capacity to enjoy the life that God has given
them. We have first responders who are emerging
in numbers. One who is a firefighter from Oklahoma
who was demoted because of decades of alcoholism.
His life has been restored by Ibogaine and he's
back working full time. We have a gentleman who
was a Charlottesville police officer who was
hit in the face with a brick during the riots
that occurred in Charlottesville. His life was
restored by a single Ibogaine treatment, and
he has attained a level of functionality that
he didn't think was possible, nor his doctors.
We have a gentleman who was a pilot who unfortunately
did a bomb and run on a village and killed a
number of innocent people. He learned about this,
and this sent him into a spiral, as many warfighters
who are exposed to moral injury do. Ibogaine
has restored this gentleman's life. We have a
gentleman by the name of Robert Gallery, a former
NFL player who exhibited all the signs of CTE
in his post -retirement years. He was ready to...
kill himself so that he wouldn't harm his own
family. It was Ibogaine that restored his life.
There have been other NFL players who are as
yet unnamed, some incidentally that have been
in the paper who have gone for Ibogaine treatment
to address similar symptoms. Players in the NHL,
players in other contact sports that include
soccer and rugby and the United Kingdom where
there is an emerging cohort of professional athletes
who have reached out to us to say we want The
United Kingdom for Ibogaine. I would love to
get you guys connected with the UFC. We would
love to be connected to the UFC. Because that
is obviously an issue with professional fighters.
So Hughes, Matt Hughes, and Matt had – I met
Matt through Marcus, gosh, in like 2008 or so.
And we went out for a fight. And then subsequently
Matt had, I think, a car accident. He was hit
by a train. Yeah, just an incredible traumatic
brain injury. And I just want to have that conversation
with him. And I'm sure you have great relationships
with those. We know for a fact that cumulative
impacts on the brain are what lead to CTE. I
don't think that's even a question of that. Here's
how it happens. These multiple concussions have
cumulative effect on the brain. And at some point
in time, that CTE has a long time effect. And
this medicine has the ability to remove that.
trauma, to reset that brain, to heal that brain.
I don't know how it works, Joe, but that's the
reason these clinical trials are going to be
so important as we're going forward. And I can't
tell you, I'm ecstatic that the lieutenant governor
and the speaker today announced their full Texas
support behind these clinical trials. We're fixing
to become the epicenter. For a movement that
literally can change the world. And I know that
sounds kind of a little bit over the top. But
if we have within our grasp here a compound that
can heal our loved ones who have an addiction.
be it a substance addiction or be it a non -substance
addiction, if we have the ability to heal people
who have been traumatically impacted by concussions,
if we have the ability to address PTSD and all
the different forms that it comes, I mean, the
hope that that can give to the society that we
live in. And I'm not talking about just the United
States. You think about what's going on in Israel.
Ukraine, in the Middle East today, and the trauma
that people are facing. I mean, this truly can
be an extraordinary gift to the world. Listen,
I think it's really interesting you ask a leading
question about how did I come to this position
of being able to be supportive as I am. When
I think about my growing up, and I grew up in
a very conservative Christian family. And I think
one of the challenges we still have in our society
is that the conservative Christian faith is like,
stay away from that stuff. I mean, that's bad.
Do not. Under any circumstances. Don't be going
there. It's demonic. And there's a book that's
about to be published. I think the first week
in April. So we're approaching it. There's an
author by the name of Wendy Reese. R -E -E -S.
Wendy with an I. W -E -N -D -I -R -E -E -S. And
she, not unlike the two twins. was sexually assaulted
by her own father. He was a pastor of a church.
Joe, I'm telling you, brother, I can't dream
up in my worst nightmare a more evil thing than
a father that would sexually assault their daughter.
A preacher father. And she dealt with it with
Ibogaine. And has come to the conclusion that
her great gift to give to the world out there
is to write this book called A Christian's Guide
to Psychedelics. Now, if you think that won't
catch some people's attention when they're going
through the bookstore and they go, A Christian's
Guide to Psychedelics, holy mackerel. But this
is a book about her experience. But it's also
a book that I would suggest that every believing
Christian. Go pick it up and read it because
it talks about chapter and verse and gives you
scripture about where God talks about these compounds,
about these things that he's given the world.
He means them for good, all of them for good.
Are you aware of the scholars in Israel that
are proposing that Moses seeing the burning bush
was the acacia tree? Yeah. There's an acacia
tree, the acacia tree, which is very common in
the Middle East. is rich in dimethyltryptamine.
And they believe that what they're trying to
relay in this story was that Moses encountered
God through the burning of this bush. So the
burning of this bush, releasing the psychedelic
compound dimethyltryptamine, allowed Moses to
bring back the Ten Commandments. You know, thank
you for mentioning that. I have been following
scholarship around the use and the recognition
that there's a lot of psychedelic allegory in
Holy Scripture. That, I think, is the favorite,
where that burning bush reveals the great I am.
And when Moses says, who are you? I am who I
am. and the beauty about Ibogaine and the other
plant medicines are their capacity to reveal
the I am that is within each of us and that I
am is our eternal creator who absolutely has
engineered and placed these plants on this earth
so that we can be affirmed in what our true identity
and ultimate destiny is and praise God for it.
And then there's also the Sacred Mushroom and
the Cross, the John Marco Allegro book, where
he was one of the ordained ministers that was
– his task was to decode the Dead Sea Scrolls.
And he wrote this book that details what he believes
is the use of psychedelic drugs in ancient Christianity.
Hard for me to argue with. I mean I just think
our modern perception of it. Which is very tainted
by what happened during the Nixon administration
where they were trying to squash the hippie movement,
the anti -war movement, and the civil rights
movement. And that's why they demonized these
drugs and these compounds. And that's why they
put them in this category of having no medicinal
use, which is clearly not accurate. It doesn't
mean that they should just be given to everyone
and everyone should do them with no restrictions
and no regulations. It just means we should understand
that. They have a long history of human use and
have spectacular results on all sorts of things
that our society is suffering from greatly. And
to just pretend that that's not the case based
on what happened in the 1970s is just insane.
It doesn't make any sense. I would suggest that
one of the greatest lessons learned by Americans
who are age 50 and younger. those of us who I
call the bicentennial children, is that the most
morally depraved criminal in America today is
power. And the power of the human hand, when
it is wielded in its most abusive context, will
always seek to deny any access to individual
human divinity and the liberty and autonomy that
is conferred upon each of us as children of God.
And insofar as we find ourselves at the precipice
of what I believe is the emergence of a broad
-based spiritual movement where all of us modernists
within the empiricism of modern American society
are able to see through the fog of all of our
wealth and gadgetry and recognize, we are in
the midst of profound spiritual famine in the
United States. You, I know, and forgive me for
referencing age, Remember back in the mid -80s,
where we saw all these horrific images of starvation
and dissension and fly -covered death from mass
famine in Ethiopia and Sudan, where millions
of people starved to death because the malevolence
of power forbade the delivery of any relief sent
by the outside world. When we look at what's
right in front of us in the United States today,
there is no denying that we are in the midst
of a terrible spiritual famine. And the malevolence
of American power is feasting on our starvation.
This is an emancipation movement for the mind.
body and soul of every human being in this country
and across the globe who is lethally estranged
from their own spirituality. The Abigain Mission
is a mission to foment dramatic medical breakthroughs
across a host of conditions that have no effective
therapeutic answers. But above and beyond that,
it is about the affirmation of the spiritual
essence of life. that can unify us as a species
in a way that is necessary if we're going to
navigate these changes over the next 20 years.
Governor Perry mentioned this wonderful invitation
that I received to go to what was called the
Earth One Summit. Now, Joe, I come out of Hillbilly
Holler, Virginia, and it's a— I do. I introduce
him from time to time. I said, look, this guy—
He's he's he looks like and he sounds like a
hillbilly from eastern Kentucky in the Appalachian
Mountains. And I said he is. But I said he's
one of the most brilliant people I've ever met
in my life and one of the most extraordinary
orators I've ever had in my life. So anyway,
I wanted to I love you, brother. But you are
a hillbilly. I'm much more comfortable with that
than all that other stuff you said. But, you
know, when you come out of scratch nothing sometimes,
there are certain sophistications that you lack.
And I'm no exception to that. So there was this
Earth One Summit. It was 200 thought leaders
from across the world who came to basically discuss
the future. And I was very honored to have received
an invitation to come and attend the gathering
to speak about what Governor Perry and I are
working on through Americans for Ibogaine. And
they presented me with the honor of being the
closing keynote speaker for the gathering. And
as I listened over the course of four days, I
heard individuals who included Kimball and Christiana
Musk, and I've read interviews by Elon Musk speaking
about the advent of AI and the capacity of AI
to solve the central dilemma that we as humans
have had since we emerged from the caves, and
that's the dilemma of scarcity. So as I was there
listening to folks speak about being on the edge
of a time when we can automate. the means of
production and essentially create an unlimited
amount of abundance for every person on this
planet, I couldn't help but think about where
we are right now as compared to where these individuals
see us being in 20 years. You cannot create and
deploy this kind of God -like technology. which
has the capacity to produce unlimited abundance,
potentially usher in the age of Aquarius, and
drop it in to these Frankenstein monstrosity
government systems that we currently have that
are enthroned upon the helplessness of powerless
people that perpetuate problems that they are
supposed to solve and that monetize sustained
human misery. So long as government makes its
buck over keeping its foot on the necks of the
American people, we are looking at a future that
much more resembles Mad Max than we are Star
Trek. And if we are going to create the degree
of social cohesion that is necessary to hold
these systems accountable and to create a system
that can truly usher in that age of unlimited
abundance to improve, the human condition for
all. It begins with a spiritual reawakening that
I began first and foremost, and the rest of the
psychedelics concede and foment within American
society. To that end. And then I'll be quiet
for the next little bit. No, you're good, man.
We love listening to you. There is a six -part
docuseries that will come out next year called
Psychedelics And. And it is... a series of interviews
with a cross -section of leaders across the United
States where they speak about their own quest
for meaning and how psychedelics has helped them
understand that we are more than just these material
beings that get up and go to work every day and
are a productive economic unit, go home and repeat,
that there is a much higher sense of purpose
that we are here to serve. The plants themselves
have the capacity to enlighten us at scale in
a way that's absolutely necessary if we're going
to make that age of abundance happen as those
visionaries articulate and dream for. What I
think is fascinating about the age that we're
living in is that change comes very slowly, but
it comes much faster when you have the kind of
access to information that people have today.
And I don't think this conversation was possible
20 years ago. No, no way. And that's kind of
amazing. No way. It's kind of amazing. And I
don't think that there was a format for this
conversation 20 years ago. This format has occurred
because of the age of information, because of
the Internet, and because there's no gatekeepers
anymore. And because people have the choice to
decide what they want to consume, what they want
to listen to. To be able to be a part of that,
to me, is an incredible privilege. And to be
able to have you guys on and to have this conversation
and to recognize that the reason why this is
possible is because, for lack of a better term,
the world's waking up. Yes, sir. It's just taking
more time than we would like. But the world is
waking up. And change happens. It just happens.
People have to change their opinions, and that's
very difficult because a lot of people identify
with their opinions. Their opinions become a
part of their ideology, and it's just very difficult
to get people to change their ideology. They
identify with this. It is them. And I've always
tried to tell people the way I try to approach
things, you are not your ideas. You are not your
opinions. thoughts. And if you identify with
them, you are trapped in them. And you will be
held hostage by them. You will try to defend
them, even if they don't make sense. You will
try to ignore evidence that points you in a direction
that's contrary to what your current belief system
is. Don't be your opinions. Don't be your ideas.
Just sit in them. Be consistent. Be honest. Have
ethics and morals that you adhere to. But the
ideas are just ideas. And if you're wrong, you
should be proud to say you're wrong. It's a sign
of growth. It's a sign of intelligence. And it's
a sign of you being an honest human being who
cares about the truth, not about being right.
Because there's too many people in this world
that they don't really have conversations. They
have ideological sparring matches where they're
just involved in these little intellectual tugs
of war where they're just trying to be right.
And this is not the time for that. It's just...
So my going from hard no on criminal justice
reform to literally a leader on criminal justice
reform in the mid -2000s, my going from hard
no on any psychedelic drugs that could be used
in any way to now being... What I humorously
refer to as the Johnny Appleseed of Ibogaine
is to your point. Be open. Be willing to say
you were wrong. I know my wife would like to
hear me do that more often. But, hey, if you
don't mind, I want to take a minute and talk
about how. Far this movement has come. And Brian
talked about Americans for Ibogaine and our ambassadors
all across the country and the growth that we've
seen in this. And I want to give you one example
of to your point that five years ago, if you
had had an institution that had its own reputation
dealing with brain health and brain science and
those kind of things, they would have just kind
of. moved you off to the side and said, you know,
no thanks. But the Center for Brain Health in
Dallas, this is an extraordinary institution
that's connected to the University of Texas,
Dallas. Matter of fact, it's just next door to
UT Southwestern, which is one of the great medical
facilities in the world, UT Southwestern. And
Dr. Sandy Chapman heads up. the Center for Brain
Health. And they've done some great work. We
went up and presented to her, I don't know, probably
60 to 90 days ago. And there was another organization
called Forward Intent. Just a beautiful young
man and his wife, Alex Duran. and his wife, who
have funded an effort. And what they're doing
with their resources, they're sending, I think,
250 individuals down to Mexico to both, I think,
a facility called Transcend and to Ambio. And
Ambio is that... facility that I've been to,
Brian's been to, Marcus and Morgan Luttrell have
been to. I think probably 2 ,000 more fighters
have been down to Ambio now. Vets, underwrites
them. And just as an aside, this has blown up
so big. And I'm talking about... The Ibogaine
effort, the education of Ibogaine, people, you
know, there's some hope out there. And people
are rushing to find where they can go to, you
know, to treat the addiction that their loved
one has or deal with their PTSD and what have
you. And Ambio is just covered up. And I'm sure,
you know, the other facilities are as well down
there. The organization Vets, which is really
where I came into this, Amber and Marcus Capone,
they don't have any openings anymore. I mean,
they are completely covered up. But, I mean,
that's a good challenge. I'm glad we have that
challenge. But my point is you've got an institution
in Dallas, Texas. that just like the state is
getting the signal, it's okay to be out there
talking about this. It's okay to be a leader.
It's okay to get out there and lead the charge.
And I want to read to you what Dr. Chapman, because
I asked her, I said, do you mind if I talk about
what you all are doing? And she said, absolutely.
And she said, Governor, great to talk with you
yesterday. Here are some comments to guide you
in how to discuss our existing collaboration.
I'm excited to announce that we have begun a
partnership with the Center for Brain Health,
University of Texas at Dallas, Americans for
Ibogaine, and Forward Intent to create the largest
research study of Ibogaine to date focused on
understanding its impact on the brain among the
veteran community. Dr. Francesca Philby, an expert
in cognitive and translational neuroscience,
especially the use of neuroimaging to study brain
behavior relationships, will lead the research.
Our mission together is to move beyond the question
of, does Ibogaine help? And instead, answer the
more practical questions veterans and clinicians
need. Number one, who benefits and why? How long
do the benefits last? which aspects of daily
life functioning, i .e., cognition, sleep, substance
use, and overall well -being, improve or worsen
following treatment, and how are these changes
associated with brain alterations. The three
-year study... We'll follow those treated with
Ibogaine over the course of 18 months, which
will allow us to create the first understanding
of the sustained impacts of Ibogaine on the brain
across various treatment regimes. We'll be diving
more into this topic on November the 19th at
the Center for Brain Health's Brain Health Presents
speaker series to share more. By bringing world
-class scientific rigor to this space, We aren't
just studying a substance. We're creating a foundation
of knowledge that will expand safe, informed
access for those who need it most. That is what
Americans for Ibogaine is really all about. Making
that type of penetration, having that type of
success, seeing what Brian and the other folks
have created here in the state of Texas, I'm
going to tell you something, brother. There is
nothing that I've been involved with in my life
that gives me more pleasure than to see what
we're doing and knowing that there's a father
out there, a mother out there. whose child's
going to be saved. You mentioned dogma. People
are, in particular in American society, there
is a quest for identity. There is a quest for
belonging. So much of what we see on social media
and in broadcast media that is rage and anger
and disaffection is tremendous loneliness and
a tremendous lack of... of belonging to something
and a tremendous amount of trauma related to
never having had anything that resembles unconditional
affection within the context of a safe and stable
familial relationship. That's at scale within
the United States. And the degree to which dogma
can thwart evolution is 100 % right on. And I
just use my own self as an example. I was a child
of Reagan's America. I can remember I was about
five years old when he and President Carter had
their first presidential debate in 1980. President
Reagan was like the mother goose to the gosling.
He just imprinted on me. And whereas other young
boys had pictures of Joe Montana and Michael
Jordan and Michael Jackson all over their rooms,
mine was wallpapered with Ronald Reagan. I was
the president of the Teenage Republicans in high
school. I wrote him fan letters all the time.
He actually replied to one, and I put it in a
frame in my room. It was written on my birthday.
I was president of the college Republicans at
George Mason University, and I mean I aim to
be the king of conservative Republican conformity.
That was my whole mission in life. And I used
to joke that when people said, well, how did
you get to this? And what do you think about
the fact that you're talking about it and you're
so zealous in your advocacy? I would kind of
make a half statement and say, well, if 25 -year
-old me could come and see 50 -year -old me.
He would look and say, what in the world happened
to you? And I would kind of yuck and yuck and
laugh about it. Well, here's the answer. If 25
-year -old me could come back and look at 50
-year -old me and say, what happened to you?
50 -year -old me would look right back and say,
you happened to me. You happened to me. Your
youthful sense of certainty. your belief that
you had it all figured out, your belief that
you had no further greater evolution to achieve,
sir. You and your insolence of youth, you happened
to me. One of the things that I have... so enjoyed
learning about Governor Perry as he and I have
built a relationship. The first time I really
started following him was when he ran for president
in 2012, and I believe that had he not had that
back surgery, we would not have had a second
Obama term. He would have won that race, and
I think he would have won it handily. It's been
remarkable to listen to this gentleman who has
been so firmly identified with the conservative
wing of the Republican Party be so willing to
be curious. and to have that human value of curiosity
and a willingness to hear and a willingness to
know and a willingness to entertain that perhaps
everything that he had been taught about this
particular subject was not correct. Curiosity
is a prime human value. And if you allow dogma
to shut off your curiosity, you have hobbled
yourself. And I think it was Muhammad Ali who
said, If a 50 -year -old man thinks the exact
same way as a 20 -year -old man, as he did when
he was 20, he's wasted 30 years of his life.
And that is dead on right. Dead on right. Yeah,
I could attest to that. Curiosity is my number
one attribute. It's the thing that's led me in
life and everything I've ever done. It's just
being open -minded and curious. I'm very fortunate
is that I didn't think I had things figured out
when I was 20 at all. I was sure that I was a
moron. I was good at one thing, kicking people.
That's it. And then from then, I realized that
there's a lot to learn and that as much as I
learned about martial arts, I could apply that
sort of open -minded discipline. Because you
have to be... open -minded to be good at martial
arts because you have to be able to listen you
can't think you already know you cannot you won't
you won't grow and you won't get better you have
to be listening to coaches you have to be listening
to instructors you have to be listening to your
teammates you have to listen to everybody if
you don't listen if you have don't tell me those
people don't go anywhere And I learned that very
early on. It's very fortunate that I found that
path because I've applied that to virtually everything
that I've ever done in life. Instead of having
this belief that I have things figured out. I
mean I've certainly like been more sure than
I should have been at many times in my life.
But always willing to stop and go, maybe I'm
wrong. And if it wasn't for this podcast, it
would have never gotten to where it is because
I've – fortunately been able to talk to brilliant
people and you know I grew up in I lived in California
for 26 years before that I you know I lived in
Boston in New York I thought of people that the
southern accent in particular right then this
is a standard thing that a lot of people on the
coasts have you hear people talk with a southern
accent you think they're dumb And it's a terrible
stereotype that actually came out because of
hookworm parasites. I'm sure you're aware of
that story. I'm not. You're not? Educate me.
Stereotype of the lazy, dull -minded southerner
came out of the fact that a large percentage
of people in the South had contracted hookworms.
From walking around barefoot and hookworm parasites
will rob you of your intellectual capacity. They
greatly diminish your ability to think and exhaust
you. You get slower and, you know. in quotes,
lazier, but you're really just infected with
a parasite. And it's an enormous percentage of
the population in the 1900s where we're infected
with hookworm and in the South in particular,
hot climates. And this is where this stereotype
came from. When someone like you speaks with
such insane recall. Like your recall is bananas.
Like your recall of dates and names and times.
I have a pretty good recall. It's nothing like
yours. It's extraordinary. And I love when I
meet someone who's brilliant who still has a
southern accent. Because it's like. Like I said.
Yeah. Forget all your stereotypes. Let them all
go, baby. Because they're not real. It's not
real. None of that is real. Individuals vary
wildly. And, you know, I've met brilliant people.
From coastal cities. And I've met fucking morons
that talk like, you know, a person that you would
assume would be a highly educated, intelligent
person. But they're closed minded and foolish
in their ways. And having had this. ability to
have all these different conversations with different
people. It's just like every time I have another
conversation just expands my understanding just
a little more and a little more and a little
more. And I love it. And it's all out of curiosity.
And I'm very happy that I've been able to make
that curiosity infectious. My favorite cities,
and I know we're getting off the beaten path
here a little bit. I love to get off the beaten
path. It's my favorite thing to do. My favorite
cities in America are those that you can go to
and not feel like you're in the country. Miami
is fabulous. It's a wild place. You should have
a passport to go to Miami. It is fabulous. And
I remember the first time I went to New York
City one time when I was about five years old.
The only thing I could remember was the Empire
State Building and some dude with purple hair
sticking his tongue out at me. The next time
was in 2019. And I'd always had kind of that
stereotypical southerner's attitude, a bunch
of, you know. haughty, rude, mean -acting Yankee
people living in an obnoxious locale that would
just be hell on earth to have to endure. So I
had the opportunity to go and spend a day there
and rolled into Grand Central Station on the
railway from, I think it was New Haven, Connecticut.
And just to watch the dimensions of the architecture
as we rolled into the city. Crazy. The expansion
of scale of this place. How old were you? Well,
let's see. I was about to turn 44. I think I
could hear the Beverly Hillbillies music playing
in my head when I was going down through there.
So we get off at Grand Central Station, and I
mean, I walked all through that. I walked from
Grand Central Station all the way down to the
tip of where the World Trade Center was. It was
New York City. is a monumental human accomplishment.
When you can have the entire world within 300
square miles, and it is a living affirmation
of everything the United States is supposed to
be as the last best hope of humankind on Earth,
just to be in that place. Anytime I've gone back
since, I mean the minute that I go to get the
Uber at LaGuardia Airport and I see that skyline,
I mean my heart just starts racing, racing, racing.
I would have never thought that I would just
fall in love with New York City. But it is fabulous.
San Francisco is the same way. There are so many
wonderful places in the United States where you
wouldn't think that somebody necessarily who
sounded like me would endorse. One of the best
things that I have done is stop watching television
news. The last time I watched television news
was after the first Obama press conference in
January of 2009, and I cut it off. Wow. Aside
from presidential debates and election returns,
I've never turned it back on. I shouldn't tell
this. The number of times I've left my front
door wide open, the garage door open in my neighborhood,
and nothing has happened. is remarkable. This
country, in terms of her people, is as much like
it was back in 1950 as it has ever been. The
complexion is a little different. We've got a
lot more diversity now than we've ever had. But
once you take that blinder of mass media mayhem
and all this fabricated division that is purposely
put out there to keep us divided. To keep us
tuning in. Tune it in and segregate it. Once
you take yourself out of it and you just start
having a conversation, next time someone gets
into an Uber with someone who doesn't have English
as a sacred language, strike up a conversation.
Ask them, how did you come to the United States?
What brought you here? And your heart is going
to fill with just the... unbelievable amount
of pride and love to hear those accents from
the Middle East and from Africa speak about this
country in ways that take us right back to 1776.
It's a fabulous place, and I'm able to say so
much of this because of what the plants have
helped clarify. by way of that universal human
divinity that we all share, that this country
is the cradle to protect and to honor, which
is what makes this mission so incredibly important.
And I do want to, oh, I'm sorry. No, go ahead,
please. There's two people that I left off of
our ambassador program that I think are really
showstoppers I want to mention. One is a gentleman
by the name of Rear Admiral Jim Hancock. This
gentleman received Ibogaine treatment for his
wounds of war. He was the Navy Medical Corps
Chief and was the medical officer for the United
States Marine Corps. One of our other ambassadors
is a gentleman by the name of General Glenn Curtis.
He served in both Gulf Wars. He served in Afghanistan.
His most recent stint of service was as the commanding
general for the Louisiana National Guard. And
he is one of our prime spokespeople for legislation
that's pending in Louisiana right now to join
Texas as a partner in this Ibogaine trial. That's
fantastic. Please say what you were going to
because I'm curious. I don't even remember. Hey,
well, I remember what I wanted to talk about.
And I want to get us back on the track that we
were talking about. You know, Brian's done a
great job to discuss the spiritual aspect of
the medicine and what I mean. That's incredibly
important. Don't get me wrong on that at all.
But what brought me personally to the medicine?
Obviously, my relationship with Marcus and Morgan
and what have you. And then as I studied it,
I'm like, if you're really going to be a legitimate
spokesperson for this, if you're going to put
your reputation out there, you need to be treated.
You need to go through the treatment. And I'm
going to get to you at the end of this conversation,
but I want to set this up, if I may. And in 2023,
if my memory serves me correct, this is the same
time that Nolan Williams was heading up the 30
veteran study that Stanford was going to oversee.
Kind of the early days, if you will, of some
clinical trial type effort to. have the data,
to have the background, some early day efforts
to start educating the public about that is how
I do this. They had 30 vets. I think they were
between the ages of like 22 and 42. They all
had moderate to severe PTSD. They were Some of
them addicted to alcohol. You know, they were
pretty classic veteran population that had some
real challenges. They were sent to Stanford,
and they did baseline functional MRIs. And then
they were sent down to Ambio, just south of Tijuana,
where they were given the treatment. And then
that last, I think, about a four -day treatment
protocol. You go down, work your way in. Tuesday,
you get in preparation. Tuesday evening, you
get the compound. Wednesday is a recovery day.
Thursday, there's a 5 -MeO -DMT treatment. And
then you go home. They went back to Stanford.
after five days after the treatment and had follow
-up MRIs. I think they had an MRI at 30 days
and then a functional MRI at six months. So there
was a good piece of data there to look at. Just
stunningly good results. And the results, I think
there was 87 % of them who now better than two
years later, but that have zero PTSD. The addictions
were at that level of reduction that we talked
about in the high 80 percentiles. I mean, we've
seen all of this data before. This is nothing
new. But the reason I share that with you is
that I basically went down and followed the same
protocol. I wasn't part of the clinical trial.
And I only wanted to be treated with Ibogaine.
I did not want to take the 5 -MeO -DMT. So what
I was looking at, and I was interested in this
from the brain regenerative side of it. I had
about as bucolic a life as you've ever had. I
never had anybody. mistreat me of anything that
you could even get close to calling traumatic
effect. I had no trauma in my life. I grew up
on a dry land cotton farm, you know, 60 miles
from Abilene, Texas, 16 miles from closest place
that had a post office in a part of Texas that
was just a lovely, wonderful, loving place. My
mom and dad loved me and I knew it. And, you
know, my scout master and my principal and my...
superintendent of my Sunday school class, who,
by the way, were all the same person. And he
drove the bus and was a football coach. But I
had a as non -traumatic growing up period as
you can imagine. So I was concussed, severely
concussed three times, twice in athletic events.
And I'm talking about knocked out. completely
for over one minute. And those are severe concussions.
Two times athletic events, one time unloading
horses, knocked completely out. So what I know
now is that as I got to pilot training and I
started noticing that I was having trouble sleeping
and that this thing that I understood later in
life was anxiety. had crept into my life. So
I had, I'm going to put it in the mild category,
anxiety and insomnia. I went into a very odd
line of work in politics to have those two kind
of things. And I matched them rather well. Most
people didn't know I had that. My wife did. But
other than that, even my senior staff and my
My offices through the year, agriculture commissioner,
lieutenant governor, governor, they did not know
that I had this challenge of maybe sleeping three
and a half, four hours a night, being anxious
at times to the point of being never dysfunctional.
But from my perspective, probably some people
out there in the political world said, hell,
Perry, you were dysfunctional the whole damn
time. What are you talking about? Anyway, beside
the point. I had the treatment. I had the brain
scan going in. I had the brain scan a week later,
and I had the brain scan at six months. The first
brain scan, they said, look, your brain looks
pretty good for a 73 -year -old guy. He said,
you're actually in. You're in pretty good shape.
You don't have a lot of atrophy. You got some
mild atrophy, but your brain looks pretty good.
The week after scan showed a 27 % increase in
the prefrontal cortex of my brain. That's where
your focus, your concentration, your emotions
reside. had a 27 % increase in that prefrontal
cortex activity. My six -month scan, I have a
dear friend who's a neurosurgeon from Tyler,
Dr. Charlie Gordon, who is a 40 -plus year neurosurgeon.
Spying expert. Looked at lots of brain scans.
A respectful skeptic of this. When I told him
I was going to be treated with this compound
called Ibogaine, this psychoactive compound,
he was recoiled a little bit. He was like, you
need to be really careful with that. He has now
gone from being respectful. skeptic to looking
at the data from the clinical trial that was
done at Stanford, talking to a fairly good number
of the veterans that went through that trial,
talking to Dr. Williams, talking to other specialists
at Stanford. And he has gone from respectful
skeptic to a full -on believer in this medicine.
I mean, an absolute supporter that this medicine
does what it says it does. It heals people of
addictions. It heals from PTSD. This medicine
does what it does. And we're driving back from
the airport that day after the six -month scan.
He had looked at it as it came off of the machine.
And he said, Governor, I'm not going to blow
smoke up your dress. Your atrophy is gone. He
said, I have no idea why this has happened, but
he said the difference between your initial baseline
scan and six months later, clearly the atrophy
in your brain is gone. He said your brain looks
like a 40 -year -old. Now, the reason I share
that story with you. is because, number one,
that's partly what drives me about this, is that
there is a regenerative aspect of this medicine
that we don't really understand yet. And if it
does what we think it's going to do, and that's
the reason these clinical trials are just so
stunningly important. That's the reason what
the Center for Brain Health and what they're
going to be doing and the data they're going
to be collecting. I'm convinced of what this
data is going to show. But for all of those individuals
out there who don't have substance abuse problems,
who weren't traumatized as a child, but who have
been concussed, and we know that that damage
is out there and that the cumulative side, Robert
Gallery, that great professional football player
who had really bad CTE, and he will tell you
today this medicine saved his life. My question
for you, Joe Rogan, is how many times do you
think you've been concussed in life? I don't
know. I have no idea. Dozens. Yeah, I'd have
to go back and think about times. Most of it
was from sparring or a few from fights. But if
we think about that, if there is this cumulative
effect, are you – how old are you now? 58. Would
Joe Rogan be willing to say, you know what? I've
seen enough. I believe that this medicine does
what you say it will do. And for a person like
me, that it could be incredibly helpful. to my
long -term plan of living a long and healthy
and engaged life, that Joe Rogan would go and
be treated with Ibogaine. Yeah, I would definitely
do it. I'm very fascinated by it. I mean, I've
never heard anybody say, I wish I didn't do it.
He mentioned his brain scans post -treatment.
A couple of weeks ago, while I was at that...
One Earth Gathering, I met a lady whom I will
call Lonnie, and she had just returned from a
navigating treatment in November of 25. She related
an early life of just ungodly physical abuse
by her father, who was addicted to OxyContin.
You know, we began this conversation about the
realities of the opioid epidemic in America.
While death is the most terminal outcome as measured
down about 700 ,000 Americans, there is a much
broader web of hardcore travesty that exists
around each of those death outcomes. And Lonnie
experienced that. She had multiple concussions
from her own father. Like many individuals who
experience trauma of this nature, she developed
her own drug addiction. She was in and out of
jail. She was homeless at a different point in
time. She managed to get recovered. She had a
separate traumatic brain injury that was fairly
severe in 2018. And then she was diagnosed with
what I believe is called young -onset Parkinson's,
Parkinson's diagnosis that is pre -age 50. Her
Parkinson's had progressed to the point to where
she could not write because of the tremulousness
in her hands. So when I saw her two weeks ago
and she introduced herself, she had all of the
appearance and affect of a perfectly healthy
human being. It was only after we sat down and
she explained what her experience had been and
where she was at now that the Ibogaine disclosure
was made. Her hand was just as calm as mine.
And she said that it had been essentially three
months and that she had been able to resume a
normal life and that her mind felt restored.
Now, based on the responses we got after our
first interview with you, I want to be very careful
here. This is truly the edge of science. And
there is much unknown about the variety of Parkinson's
that this can treat. There's some suggestion
that... It is better for those who have a genetic
predisposition for the disease than it is for
those who contract Parkinson's as the result
of environmental exposure. Ibogaine does not
appear to have any impact on Parkinson's developed
as a result of exposure to environmental toxin.
The stage of the disease at which you catch it
also appears to make a big difference. The earlier,
the better. It has also been asserted that Ibogaine
does not cure Parkinson's. What it does is slows
disease progression and creates, for some, a
broad window of opportunity for the restoration
of function that can dramatically improve the
quality of life. Now, I'm just giving a number
of qualifiers about its impact and efficacy on
one individual, but think about what we just
said here. This is a woman who was diagnosed
with young -onset Parkinson's. She had lost the
ability to write because of the tremulousness
in her hands. She's four months out from her
treatment, and she's been able to resume her
full normal life with a complete restoration
of function. If we could get a COVID vaccine
out in nine months, there is no reason why. with
the focused effort of Texas and the other states
we'll discuss here momentarily that we cannot
achieve the moonshot of our time within three
years or less and that is the completion. of
an Ibogaine medication that can be fully integrated
into the U .S. healthcare system and made just
as universally available as every ineffective
opioid -based treatment that we currently deploy
through the medical system at a cost of $700
,000 per patient. Sponsored by Indivior, which
is one of the chief pharmaceutical developers
of everything that we have that fails 75 % of
the time. Yeah, I mean, if we could do it, it
would be pretty extraordinary. And if it is done,
I really do believe that it would have a complete
changing of society. When people have no hope
and there's nothing, and then all of a sudden
there's something that comes along that you do
it once and it's an 85 % effective rate, and
you do it twice and it's in the high 90s. I mean,
how many people are out there struggling with
something? whether it's alcoholism, whether it's
obesity, whether it's, you know, that's another
thing. There's people that are calming themselves
with food, right? And it's masking. That's probably
a sugar addiction, don't you think? I mean, from
the standpoint of... It is, but for a lot of
people, there's something else. You know, for
some people, it's sexual abuse when they're younger
and they eat. Interesting. It's an addiction.
And it's not just a physical addiction. It's
a psychological addiction. I brought up gambling
because I know a lot of people that are addicted
to gambling. Pornography. Yeah, pornography.
Sure. There's a lot of things. The twin fashion
models we mentioned are ones who had developed
those eating disorders, one of which was a compulsive
eater as a result of that childhood sexual abuse.
And Ibogaine was the treatment of last resort,
not the first option. And their own recovery
story, which can be found on the Americans for
Ibogaine website, is truly extraordinary. And
speaking of extraordinary, when we came in here
to push Texas, our belief was and still is. and
is now playing out at scale, that if Texas did
this, it would be joined by a number of other
states who are no longer willing to sit and wait
on an inefficient, often incompetent, and also
incompetently corrupt federal bureaucracy that
will not move in response to the genuine needs
of the American people at the pace that it needs
to. There are a variety. of well -intentioned
reformers within the current administration,
Secretary Kennedy, Secretary Collins, and others
who have voiced their support for the advancement
of plant medicine as breakthrough treatments
primarily for U .S. warfighters, but also for
other members of our society for whom these medications
could help. We believe that these individuals
are stymied by two realities. The first reality
is the Byzantine complexity of the federal bureaucracy,
the degree to which it has been compromised by
the institutional capture of much of its functioning
by companies that make money on keeping problems
alive. We think they're probably also stymied
by perhaps some other political cross -currents
within the administration that view psychedelics
with skepticism, and that are therefore willing
to be indiscriminate in their resistance to the
advancement of any of them, when in fact the
advancement of this one is of existential critical
importance as a breakthrough treatment for millions
of Americans who need it now. And so to that
end, Americans for Ibogaine following the Texas
success. convened a gathering of 200 people in
Aspen, Colorado in November of last year. These
individuals were invited, appointed, and elected
state officials from 22 individual states and
aligned citizens of influence who would be willing,
as the Texans were here, to get behind efforts
in state legislatures to create a partnership
with Texas that by end result will form. the
unstoppable external force through the states
that can crash through the federal wall using
not just their resources, but their political
influence to execute one unified FDA drug development
trial and to force the federal government to
be responsive to everything that is required
to ensure it is successful. So as we sit here
today, we have been working with elected officials
in Alabama, Georgia, Idaho, Maryland, Michigan.
New Hampshire, South Carolina, Vermont, Ohio,
Pennsylvania, Florida, South Dakota, and California,
each of whom have legislators who are willing
to introduce and to pursue bills to join their
states into Texas as is trial. Governor Perry
and I spoke to the American Legislative Exchange
Council as keynote speakers on December 5th of
last year. This is an umbrella think tank organization
for center -right, mostly Republican legislatures
from across the country. In its entire existence,
ALEC has taken two positions when it comes on
the war on drugs. More prison, more penalties,
more prison, more penalties. Ad infinitum. After
we spoke... About the necessity of Ibogaine's
medical integration into the United States and
the capacity of the states to force this reality
into being, Alec issued a formal position statement
as well as model legislation endorsing what we
call the American Ibogaine Initiative to bring
the states all together to make this happen with
one unified voice. And so now, as we sit here
with you today, in the state of Tennessee, There
are two bills, one each in the state House and
the state Senate, that are making its way through
that legislature to join Texas. Before we walked
in here this morning, the Tennessee Senate Finance
Committee voted 11 to nothing to move Tennessee's
bill forward to the full state Senate for consideration
and what will, I believe, be passage. And I would
like to give a shout out to a special sister
by the name of Ricky Harris, who has led that
Tennessee campaign. Right now, there are two
bills in the Missouri legislature, House Bill
2817 and Senate Bill 1581, which are receiving
good, considerate, deliberative thought by legislators
there, but frankly need a little motivation.
So if you're in Missouri and you want to see
Ibogaine Medicine for your family member, for
your community, for your state, you call into
the Missouri legislature and say, move the Ibogaine
bill forward to join Missouri with Texas, Oklahoma.
The Oklahoma House of Representatives has passed
its Ibogaine bill. It is now pendant in its Senate.
In Louisiana, Senate Bill 43 has been introduced
to join that state to Texas, and in what I can
only describe as full circle justice. The Kentucky
Senate passed Senate Bill 77 by a margin of 35
to 2 to join Kentucky where this all began with
Texas as a state partner in this Ibogaine drug
development trial. It is now sitting in the Kentucky
House of Representatives. So you, if you are
at home, please call the Kentucky House of Representatives
and ask them to pass the Kentucky Ibogaine initiative
so the state will not be left out. Now, here
are some... Just unbelievable words are going
to come out of my mouth. The state of West Virginia,
their House of Delegates by a vote of 96 to nothing,
and their state Senate unanimously passed their
Ibogaine bill to join Texas, and it has now been
sent to their governor for signature. And the
one that is the most poignant and moving for
all the obvious reasons, the state of Mississippi,
the crucible. for the triumph of uniquely American
hope over horror. And of the leadership of Representative
Sam Creekmore. Its State House of Representatives
passed by a margin of 111 to 1, and its State
Senate passed by a margin of 51 to 1. The Mississippi
Ibogaine Initiative, which will tie the state
of Mississippi with a $5 million appropriation
from its opioid fund to Texas to develop the
most powerful psychedelic on the planet as a
breakthrough treatment for trauma and addiction
for the people of Mississippi. That's incredible.
It is going to be signed, actually has been legally
signed by Governor Reeves, Governor Tate Reeves.
And Governor Perry and I have asked for a special
signing ceremony with Representative Creekmore,
his legislative leaders there, to stand in Jackson,
Mississippi and see that signed into law as a
matter of ceremonial formality. What a wonderfully
redemptive opportunity that we have here to shepherd.
And we hope and pray that our organization can
be sufficiently resourced and sufficiently engaged
over the next three years so that we can see
this process to conclusion. I'll mention a couple
of others since we're talking about the capacity
to make this a broad -based humanitarian mission
that improves the human condition. Just Friday...
Before traveling down here on Sunday, I received
a letter from the government of Gabon naming
Americans for Ibogaine as its official partner
for the advancement of Iboga medicine globally.
Gabon has 2 .3 million people. It's got 100 ,000
square miles of territory that's the modern Garden
of Eden. I had the opportunity to take a trip
there from, and I mean trip as in the geographic
sense, not the Iboga trip, though I hope that
that will be on the agenda in the ceremonial
way sometime within the next year. We traveled
there from January 6th to January 20th. Someone
would have said, when you go to Gabon, you're
going to have one of the most down -home experiences
you've ever had in my life. It would have blown
my mind. But it was a fabulous journey, one in
which they were jubilant about our ability to
demonstrate that what they call the sacred wood,
in fact, is one of the most scientifically advanced
substances that has perhaps ever been discovered.
And we're honored that the government would choose
us as their partner to move this forward. On
Monday, After a conference call with Chief Gary
Batten, I can confirm that the Choctaw Nation
will seek to join Texas in the expansion of this
Ibogaine drug development trial onto their sovereign
territory as the third largest Native American
tribe in the country. On April the 7th, I will
be traveling to Durant, Oklahoma, for what is
being called the Intertribal Council Meeting
of what they describe as the Five Civilized Tribes.
That's their name, not mine. This is a gathering
of the leadership of the Choctaw, the Chickasaw,
the Cherokee, the Muskegee, and the Seminole.
We expect a passage of a resolution that I will
be there to lobby for. where the five civilized
tribes will declare their solidarity with Americans
for Abigain for the integration of this divine
emancipator into the U .S. healthcare system
as expeditiously as possible and make all of
their resources available to explore the extent
to which we can operationalize Ibogaine medicine
as quickly as possible. And it's my hope and
aspiration that we will see all of Native America
join this effort before the end of this year.
Can I stop you there? Would that make it so that
they would be able to immediately establish retreats
there? So similar to the way they have... Casinos?
Because they don't have the same sort of regulations
that some states do. Tribal sovereignty is an
area of the law with which I am not familiar.
I would not be able to speak to the degree to
which they could autonomously open a clinic.
The most immediate issue would be related to
the creation of a supply chain because you have
traveled through interstate commerce in the U
.S. states, which is theoretically restricted.
not just to expedite the creation of Ibogaine
treatment access for Native America, but for
all of America. And this gets into federal right
to try legislation, authored by former U .S.
Senator Kyrsten Sinema and signed by the president
during his first administration in 2018. What
federal right to try legislation or the law provides
is that once any medication makes its way through
Phase 1 safety testing within the FDA's process,
then anyone with a life -threatening condition
for which that medication is being developed
can request treatment with that medication and
obtain it from a willing prescriber. What does
that mean? That means that as soon as Texas or
As soon as one of the native tribes effectively
completes a phase one safety study under the
language of the law, anyone who has a life -threatening
condition for which this medication is being
developed, first and foremost, opioid dependency,
can go and request and get the treatment. We
have one complication. Presently, the Drug Enforcement
Administration in keeping with the practice of
many government agencies that use their arbitrary
authority to interpret law, has asserted that
federal right to try does not apply to Schedule
I substances. This means that based on not the
language of the law, but on DEA's interpretation
preference of that law, once Ibogaine clears
through Phase I, it would be disqualified for
access under federal right to try because the
DEA says that if Schedule I substances were intended
to be included, they would have been specifically
listed in the legislation. When Kirsten Sinema,
the author of the bill, explained to them that
the language is unambiguous and it says any medication,
their response was insolence. and a refusal to
honor what the statute actually says, which is
one of these numerous examples of the use of
fictitious legal realities to do violence to
legitimate reality. The DEA needs to be told
to relent on its misinterpretation and extrajudicial
interpretation of federal right to try to interpret
it as written so that once... Any phase one study
on Ibogaine is completed. Delivery can be effectuated
through the medical system immediately. And I
might add one of the challenges that I've seen
over my 40 years of being involved in government
is that bureaucrats, the easiest and the safest
answer for a bureaucrat is no. And I think that's
part of what we're running into in D .C. with
the DEA. One of the issues that I certainly hope
and pray as we go through the summer and as we
see what's happening in Texas and Mississippi
and these other states, that we'll have the opportunity
to sit down with President Trump and to just
share with him what we're doing, what we're seeing
across the country, and that we could potentially
have a conversation about the rescheduling of
Ibogaine from one to... Three. Two or three.
You get it out of that Schedule 1, which there's
no reason in the world, and you've talked about
this many times, Joe, that Ibogaine is on Schedule
1. It does have medical purposes. I mean, it's
very clear it does. And secondly, it is not addictive.
So the idea on its face that Ibogaine is shown
as this Schedule 1 compound is just a fallacy.
Well, the Schedule I, the sweeping Schedule I
Act of 1970 is just nuts. They just threw a bunch
of stuff in there, many of the things that aren't
even psychoactive. A question, the iboga tree,
can it be grown in the United States? Theoretically,
it could be. Is it climate dependent? It's climate
dependent. It's soil dependent. It is considered
an entourage plant whereby it absorbs. essentially
the essence, not just of the soil around it.
but of the other botanicals. One of the things
we learned in Gabon is that much like we have
grape varietals in California for all the different
kinds of wine that they produce, there are different
varieties of the iboga shrub. How it grows in
the north of the country is very different than
how it grows in the south. In terms of the amount
of compound that's in it or the type of compound
that's in it? The potency, the strength. The
nature of its effect on the person, the way that
it kind of facilitates the spiritual journey.
There's some of it that will kind of have a dark
angle. There's some of it that has more of a
light angle. We are just really scratching the
surface of knowledge as to all the ways in which
it can vary based on how it grows naturally.
One of the most fascinating things that we learned
there, and this is going to give you chills.
We visited a five -hectare, they use the metric
system, we visited a five -hectare iboga plantation
right in the center of Lieberville that is run
by one of their former prime ministers. It's
an experimental farm to kind of understand how
it grows, the optimal ways in which to grow it,
and what different outcomes are. So as we were
walking along, We came to these two small bushes.
It takes for it about 10 years to come to maturation.
We come along this pathway, and they were two
shrubs, identical, growing just a couple of feet
apart from each other. And they pointed those
out and said, now what does that look like to
you? And I said, well, those are iboga shrubs.
And they smiled and they said, well, it would
appear so, because they are identical. They said,
but in nature, when you find an iboga shrub,
You're going to have to be very careful to determine
which one's which because in nature it looks
like they grow in pairs. One is the real deal.
The other is its poison imposter. Oh. And they
grow together. And they look identical? They
look identical. How do you differentiate? It's
not until they get fully grown into their 10th
year. One bears fruit, which is the real deal.
And the other does not. Wow. Now, how does that
do you for the physical communication of a mystical,
spiritual reality? So it takes 10 years for it
to come to fruition to the point where it could
be useful? No. Though you could use it before
then, but you don't know whether you're getting
the real deal or you're just killing yourself.
When you see them grow in pairs, that's correct.
So there's one group of people who know how to
differentiate. One of the things that we learned
is that there is a healthy underground international
market for the bark. Just like we use... Vitamin
B complex, or we use valerian root to help us
go to sleep. People in Gabon will use the iboga
bark for mental acuity and just like drinking
a cup of coffee. I mean, to get the psychoactive
effect, you have to eat like five big, huge heaping
plates of this stuff over the course of time.
It's so bitter, it will burn your mouth. I mean,
it's an Olympian ordeal. This is the bark. Yes,
sir. It's an Olympian ordeal. to consume the
amount of bark that's necessary to get that mystical
effect. And you're sicker than a dog the whole
time you're doing it. But apparently piracy in
the country for the shrub is fairly prominent.
And they explain that what poachers will do is
that they will take the poison imposter and basically
like the street supply where you put pollutants
in with cocaine or whatever here, they put that
imposter bark in with the real. because you cannot
visually differentiate. The Ambongo pygmy, who
we had the privilege of meeting, who hosted us
for an overnight ceremony of blessing and protection
that was just phenomenal, they apparently can
just taste the bark, even when it's mixed together,
and they can tell if it's adulterated with the
imposter. Wow. Those are like sommeliers of Ibogaine.
Yes. That's a great way to put it. And I've again
sommelier. Might have to go over and get tutored.
Yeah, I wonder what that process is like. Boy.
Well, it seems to me that with the incredible
effectiveness of this compound and it being adopted
by all these states, it almost seems inevitable
that change is coming. Well, here's what we need
to make change happen. We need the DEA to get
on board. Well, we need the DEA to get on board,
but we need one man to get on board. And that
man is the President of the United States. We're
here to recognize America in her 250th year.
25 of those 250, now 10 % of time, has been spent
at war. And there are conditions unique to war
that only this medication. can responsibly address
in a way that nothing else can. If there is an
opportunity to improve the human condition at
scale, particularly for those who are even right
now being marched in to go and fight yet another
war, taking executive action that would direct
Ibogaine to be moved to Schedule II, that the
provisions of the Halt -Fentanyl Act be applied
to the Texas Multistate Ibogaine Drug Development
Trial, that the DEA be directed to interpret
federal right to trial so as to not exclude Schedule
I medications that are in drug development, and
that it be appropriately interpreted so that
any medication that makes it through Phase I
can be accessed by a person with a life -threatening
condition, and then directed. that federal scientific
research agencies, whether they be within Health
and Human Services or the Pentagon, come alongside
the states in direct partnership to fund and
foster the accelerated pharmacological development
of Ibogaine so that this medication can make
its way all the way through the FDA's process
with their supportive guidance within three years
or less. It is the moonshot of our time. And
if there's a humanitarian legacy to be left for
the ages by a president who very much wishes
to have a legacy that is well reflected upon
by posterity, this is one of the most monumental
opportunities he has to help folks at scale in
a way that no president perhaps has before. We're
at an inflection point in history, not just for
this country, but globally. Well, I certainly
hope that this message reaches the president,
and I will try to make sure that it does. Thank
you, sir. I mean, I think in terms of the amount
of people that it can help and the crisis that
our country is enduring with opiate addiction,
with PTSD, with all sorts of trauma, with CTE,
from sports, from car accidents, and what have
you. I mean, it's astonishing that this is even
a struggle. When you consider the effectiveness
of this, it's astonishing that we have to plead
and that you have to put in so much work. And
kudos to you for doing that. And kudos to Dan
Patrick for this recent adoption of it here in
Texas. And I just can only hope that momentum
is on the side that's correct. And that this
is implemented through the entire country and
that people wake up and realize, like, we can
help people. And everyone at this point in time,
because of the opioid crisis, everyone is touched
by this. Everyone has a family member. Everyone
knows someone, a friend, a neighbor, everyone.
Everyone knows someone who's been hit by this.
I have friends that have no problems with anything
else and they had an injury. and got hooked on
opiates and had a terrible time kicking it. Opioids
are, I'll use the word demonic. I just, I don't
know any other way to describe it. It's a good
word. It robs people of their life. And to have
seen, you know, back in Kentucky, where this
all started, in my opinion, in your work there,
and to have... the success that we're seeing
now in Kentucky and having it blocked historically
when you were there at the Opioid Abatement Commission
and the current governor being a part of that
blockade, if you will, former employee of the
Sackler family. And today to have the opportunity,
you know, for the Kentucky, people of Kentucky.
to finally get the opportunity to make right
what they got so tragically impacted by back
in the late 90s and the 2000s. I just, I mean,
it gives me great hope, not just for this country,
but for the side of righteousness that this happens
in a big and a powerful way. He mentions the
Kentucky experience. Before we rolled out the
Abigail Initiative there and stood up the Opioid
Commission, I thought our first job was to go
and to hear from the people of the state. We
were getting a billion dollars in settlement
funds. This money was coming to us because thousands
of their family members had died. So recognizing
that confidence in government is at an all -time
low, I thought it was important to go out and
say, hey, here's who we are. Here's the job we've
been given. Here's the resource we have. need
you have in your community that we can look to
fund. This is something that needs to be accessible
to grassroots organizations. It needs to be accountable
to you as people, and we need to make sure we're
transparent with how we use this money, but our
first job is to listen. Well, over the course
of 20 town halls across the state Tuesday evenings
from 6 p .m. until we wrapped up, what began
as a 15 -minute technocratic presentation of
what this state commission does turned into these
These mass catharsis events were hundreds of
people, thousands over the course of those 20
town halls, poured out the depths of their grief
right at our feet. And after they did, the sum
total of their response to us was, we don't think
that you have the competence or the integrity
to do anything that's going to make a meaningful
difference in this life. in our lives. And we
don't expect one cent of this money is going
to make the least bit of difference for us. At
one of these town halls, I heard about a young
woman by the name of Tamara. And the woman who
told Tamara's story was a volunteer at a clinic
for the survivors of child sexual abuse. This
particular clinic made sure that children received
appropriate medical treatment, that they received
proper therapeutic counseling, and that they
were placed in family circumstances where they
could perhaps have a chance to have a decent
life. So this volunteer told about meeting a
young woman by the name of Tamara when Tamara
was 10 years old, had been horrifically sexually
abused by a family member. Tamara had to have
a series of reconstructive surgeries because
of how awful it was. And she said that she worked
with Tamara for about two or three years and
that she went to her adopted family and she hadn't
been heard from since and that she assumed that
that was despite how awful. her circumstances
were when she came through the door, that she
managed to get well and go on and have a relatively
functional and happy life, as happy as one can
to be a survivor of those circumstances. This
same woman said that about 10 years later, she
was volunteering at the Perry County Kentucky
Detention Center in the county seat of Hazard.
and that she was offering mindfulness and yoga
classes to inmates there, just as a volunteer.
And she said she went in one evening to teach
her class, and that she saw this young woman
sitting in the corner after herself, kind of
withdrawn. She didn't want to come participate
in any of the yoga exercises or anything, and
that she was looking at her. And she said, you
know, even though she was an adult, she looked
kind of like what this young woman appeared,
Tamara, when she was 10 years old. She said,
so I walked up to her and knelt down beside her
and I said, is your name Tamara? And she said
that young woman looked up at her and recognized
and eyes brightened. She said, yes, how'd you
know? She said, I'm the volunteer who worked
with you when you came to our clinic when you
were 10. What are you doing in here? And Tamara
explained. that because of the surgeries that
she had performed to be reconstructed, they had
given her opioids. And that what began to treat
her physical pain, she continued to rely upon
to treat her tremendous spiritual and emotional
pain. And she had gotten busted by an oxy on
the street by a deputy with the Perry County
Sheriff's Department and put in jail. You think
about what I just said about how this young woman's
life got started off. And the response of power
to her was a prison. This is why what we're doing
is so necessary. And Governor Perry mentions
one other reality that's important. Some of your
viewers may have seen a Politico article published
on Sunday about a presidential aspirant. by the
name of Andy Beshear, who is the current Kentucky
governor. Andy Beshear was the Attorney General
of Kentucky before he was governor. He is the
son of his father, Steve Beshear, who was governor
for eight years between 2007 and 2015. Andy's
greatest accomplishment is being his father's
son. because he has never accomplished anything
outside of his father's lap. The legislature
in Kentucky has been controlled by Republican
supermajorities over the entirety of his term,
and everything for which he claims credit actually
belongs to them by way of accomplishment. There
are a few things for which he can claim credit.
One is shutting down the state of Kentucky harder
than Gavin Newsom shut down the state of California.
which resulted in the educational hobbling of
an entire generation of Kentucky children who
were already well behind national average standards
on both reading and math. You could go to a liquor
store or a strip club for months in Kentucky
before you could send your child to a public
school. Andy Beshear is responsible for that.
He shut down the state's entire economy. He had
an antiquated unemployment benefits system that
he instructed the director of to make sure that
his contributors and his family members were
placed into the front of the line while regular
everyday people at home got a busy signal for
months on end and had no financial lifeline while
his family and friends got valet treatment. When
this was discovered, he scapegoated the director
of the unemployment system. For following his
own instructions, a guy by the name of Muncie
McNamara and Mr. McNamara took his own life.
But the most egregious reality about Andy Beshear
and his father pertains to the fact that they
were both law partners at the law firm that represented
Purdue Pharma against the people of Kentucky
and the litigation over OxyContin. while they
were law partners there. Andy Beshear and his
daddy drew law partner paychecks off Purdue Pharma
client bills while they were there. And the people
of Kentucky should have received a billion dollars,
but instead received a measly $24 million payout
from Purdue Pharma because Andy and his daddy's
law firm malpracticed that case. The public record
will establish that as part of the Purdue Pharma
settlement, 17 million documents were destroyed.
The case was put under seal, and as a condition
of the settlement, their law firm was allowed
to cure their malpractice of the case, which
resulted in a $24 million settlement within days
of Andy Beshear becoming the attorney general.
That's right, the attorney general. I said I've
been a Republican all my life. And I have. My
family's been Republican going back to the Civil
War. I don't care if it's Gavin Newsom, Kamala
Harris, Pete Buttigieg, that Illinois governor,
Governor Pritzker, any national Democrat who
needs my time, my effort, whatever I can offer
by way of volunteer resources to make sure. that
Andy Beshear never sniffs the sewer grate of
the White House, they've got it. In this Politico
article, Andy talks about, in much the same way
as other performative public piety purveyors,
that his life is guided by the golden rule and
the good Samaritan. He likes to wear his Sunday
school and deacon affiliations on his sleeve,
as so many other performative public piety figures
do. If he were actually going to preach the part
of the Bible that he has lived, he would talk
more about Judas and the 40 pieces of silver
than he would any golden rule and a good Samaritan.
And I just want to make sure that the people
of home and the people of America know who this
man is as the national media takes up Kentucky
media's grotesque narrative about his decency
and tries to lie him into the White House. Thank
you for letting me say that. It's been a long
time coming. I understand. Anything else before
we wrap this up? You think we covered it all?
I think we hit it good. Thank you, Joe. Thank
you. You have been a really big supporter of
this effort. Well, I think it's just incredible.
I mean, I can't believe it's happening. I'd always
kind of given up hope that people would wake
up to the powerful potential that a lot of these
compounds have. change people's lives. Yeah.
Well, I'm sure there were some teachers of mine
back in the 1950s that the idea that that little
burr -headed kid that is, you know, obviously
not paying a lot of attention could somehow or
another end up being the governor of the great
state of Texas. There's probably a long, long
list of those, as a matter of fact. And I'm sure
there are some people over the course of the
last 15 years, as I matriculated up through the
political process, that said, you know, the idea
that this guy is going to be standing up, putting
his reputation on the line for something like
psychedelics, that ain't going to happen. But
it goes back to your point about be curious,
be courageous. And make a difference. All right.
And you're doing it, Joe Rogan. Thank you, man.
Thank you. Thank you too, Brian. Thank you. And
do you mind if I share one last thing? Sure.
And because it is the 250th anniversary of the
country, this comes from the heart. You know,
the bicentennial children have had the blessing
of being the grandchildren of that greatest generation
that overcame the Great Depression, defeated
Nazism, killed Jim Crow. and crushed totalitarian
communism. That greatest generation lived, suffered,
bled, and died to leave us the shining city on
the hill. Over the past 50 years, the bicentennial
children or those who are known as Generation
X have experienced the mass extinction of family
and community. We are the first generational
cohort of mass refugees from obliterated biological
families who had to seek and build new families
of choice based on the salvation bond of unconditional
affection, rejecting only the superficial, socialized
separatisms of the skin suits into which we have
been born over the past 30 years. We have watched
truth, justice, and the American way be overrun
by institutional deceit, white -collar criminality,
and the thieving tyrant's will, an odious alignment
of official depravity which has produced the
opioid epidemic, the gravest engineered humanitarian
catastrophe to play out within our borders since
the end of the 19th century, and an epidemic
which has disfigured this country. The 2008 financial
crisis, which forcibly dispossessed millions
of us from the American dream, including 52 %
of African -American homeowners, and sent us
the bill for the cost of our dispossession, a
bill that everyone under the age of 40 continues
to pay through their lack of economic mobility.
And finally and most deplorably, 25 years of
unremittant warfare. which has taken exponentially
more service member lives here at home by suicide
than have been lost at battlefields abroad. Over
the last 10 years, 1 .5 million Americans have
died from drug overdose, alcohol -related disease,
and suicide, a figure that exceeds the total
number of war casualties going all the way back
to 1776. We've got 102 counties with life expectancies
less than that of North Korea. 18 % of respondents
to a recent Pew Research Center poll said that
they believe the federal government has the capacity
to do the right thing, a figure that hasn't been
above 30 % since 2007. 80 % of respondents to
an October 2025 Wall Street Journal poll have
said that the American dream is dead. Power has
answered these unconscionable realities with
a maelstrom of bureaucratic absurdity. impudent
incompetence, and predatory corruption, all with
the blessing of the law, which has used its power
to bind torture and kill the truth. In the decades
prior to July 14, 1789, the French government
had ruthlessly imposed its burdens, abusively
imposed its costs, and ravenously consumed the
future of its people. The arrogance of the aristocracy
ultimately answered to the desperate determination
of the peasantry and its guillotine blade. We
are here to pursue one of the greatest humanitarian
missions ever undertaken to serve and exalt the
primacy of the human soul. As we sit here right
now, There are millions of Americans who have
no sense of greater purpose or of even why they
are alive, who mourn to see the sunrise when
it comes up and through their windows. And what
they need to know is that they are indeed divine.
There's only one thing that is known to produce
iron, and that's the supernova of a star. The
iron in our blood originated in a supernova eons
ago. Every human being has stardust running through
their blood. And the movement that Governor Perry
and I are leading is one that aims to recognize
the reality of that human divinity. We are desperate,
and we are determined, and we will crawl the
last mile to deliver good tidings unto the meek,
to bind up the brokenhearted. to proclaim liberty
to the captives and the opening of the prison
to them that are bound. Glory, glory, hallelujah.
The truth is marching on. And thank you, sir,
for letting us proclaim it right here on your
platform, the Walter Cronkite of our age. That
was a beautiful way to end it. Thank you. Thank
you, gentlemen. Bye, everybody.