WEBVTT 00:00:01.610 --> 00:00:04.710 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan 00:00:04.710 --> 00:00:08.150 Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by 00:00:08.150 --> 00:00:14.330 night, all day. What's happening, man? How are 00:00:14.330 --> 00:00:16.690 you? I'm good, how are you? I'm great. I watched 00:00:16.690 --> 00:00:20.129 your documentary, The Alabama Solution, last 00:00:20.129 --> 00:00:23.230 night, and it was wild. It's very, very disturbing. 00:00:24.269 --> 00:00:26.190 I'm kind of shocked I hadn't heard more about 00:00:26.190 --> 00:00:29.629 it, you know, because it's such a terrible... 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:34.039 terrible story. It's just an unbelievably awful 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:38.240 situation. And I think you covered it really 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.179 well. It's very, very heartbreaking. Yeah. Thanks 00:00:41.179 --> 00:00:43.640 for watching it. Yeah. It's sort of a question 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:49.920 of why people don't know about things that are 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:52.859 happening with our tax dollars in our backyards. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:54.619 Are there things that we don't want to know? 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:57.579 There's a reason why people sort of drive by 00:00:57.579 --> 00:00:59.689 prisons on the... highway and they see the little 00:00:59.689 --> 00:01:02.710 metal sign and it says, you know, XYZ Correctional. 00:01:02.710 --> 00:01:05.609 And they probably think, as I did for many years, 00:01:05.790 --> 00:01:08.049 well, I'm sure it's not great back there, but 00:01:08.049 --> 00:01:09.829 it doesn't need to be great. And if anything 00:01:09.829 --> 00:01:11.709 terrible was happening back there, somebody would 00:01:11.709 --> 00:01:13.609 probably tell me about it. But because of the 00:01:13.609 --> 00:01:17.290 secrecy that surrounds prisons, you know, we 00:01:17.290 --> 00:01:19.849 treat them sort of like black sites. There's 00:01:19.849 --> 00:01:22.030 no way for us to really look inside. So the press 00:01:22.030 --> 00:01:24.109 doesn't get let in and the public doesn't understand 00:01:24.109 --> 00:01:26.599 what's happening. And we know that. You know, 00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:29.120 when you give people total control over other 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.859 people, bad things happen. Bad things happen 00:01:31.859 --> 00:01:33.920 every single time. And this is one of the worst 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:37.719 things. What's really terrifying is the sheer 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:41.200 numbers of people that died there with no investigation. 00:01:42.060 --> 00:01:45.379 That's what's really terrifying. Yeah. Because, 00:01:45.379 --> 00:01:48.540 you know, you even detail that at the end, like 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:52.400 since then, how many people have died. And it's 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.549 just like, good Lord, you're thousands. Yeah. 00:01:56.650 --> 00:01:58.790 Well, there's an attorney general in Alabama 00:01:58.790 --> 00:02:01.750 named Steve Marshall who's always run on like 00:02:01.750 --> 00:02:04.609 tough on crime strategies and saying, you know, 00:02:04.629 --> 00:02:07.010 we got to lock more people up and people who 00:02:07.010 --> 00:02:10.870 are in prison for violent crime should potentially 00:02:10.870 --> 00:02:15.449 never get out of prison ever. And he says in 00:02:15.449 --> 00:02:19.629 the film, as you remember. I ask him about the 00:02:19.629 --> 00:02:22.550 nature of crime, and he says, well, I think there 00:02:22.550 --> 00:02:24.689 are evil people in this world, people who have 00:02:24.689 --> 00:02:27.550 absolutely no regard for human life. And this 00:02:27.550 --> 00:02:30.169 is a guy who's presided over a system that's 00:02:30.169 --> 00:02:32.949 killed, that's led to the deaths of 1 ,500 people 00:02:32.949 --> 00:02:35.830 just since we started making the film. So this 00:02:35.830 --> 00:02:37.689 question of, like, who are the good guys and 00:02:37.689 --> 00:02:39.650 who are the bad guys and, you know, what's the 00:02:39.650 --> 00:02:42.259 nature of... of cruelty? What's the nature of 00:02:42.259 --> 00:02:44.699 punishment? Are we putting people there to try 00:02:44.699 --> 00:02:46.979 to make them better, rehabilitate them? Are we 00:02:46.979 --> 00:02:49.400 putting them there because they're drug addicts 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.319 and we're trying to get rid of them as opposed 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.419 to rehabilitate them or as opposed to try to 00:02:54.419 --> 00:02:57.039 get them off of drugs? So obviously, prisons 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.000 have become pretty much a catch -all for the 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.879 ills of society. So if you have mental illness, 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.500 much more likely to go to prison. Once you're 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:06.580 in prison, if you're mentally ill or you have 00:03:06.580 --> 00:03:09.460 bad social skills, you're much more likely to 00:03:09.460 --> 00:03:11.699 get into a scrape with a guard who probably isn't 00:03:11.699 --> 00:03:13.180 trained to deal with somebody who's mentally 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:15.300 ill. And you're much more likely to get murdered, 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:18.180 which is what we saw happening in Alabama. Well, 00:03:18.259 --> 00:03:22.020 you even – it's the old expression, who's going 00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:25.280 to watch the watchers, right? Because one of 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.500 the things that you detail is very obviously 00:03:28.500 --> 00:03:32.520 nonviolent people who – Spend all their time 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:36.139 writing and reading and they're getting retribution 00:03:36.139 --> 00:03:38.840 because they're calling attention to the terrible 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:43.360 conditions at the prison. So the one guy with 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.240 glasses who was beaten blindly, what was his 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:50.560 name? Robert O. Council. I mean, there's so many 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.560 stories that you show in this documentary from 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:58.219 smuggled cameras. So these guys all get contraband 00:03:58.219 --> 00:04:00.979 cameras. From the guards. From the guards, yeah. 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:04.120 The guards sell the phones to the men inside. 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:06.800 Which is also crazy. Yeah. I mean, there's so 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:08.960 many drugs in the Alabama state prison system. 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:12.719 And I spoke to one of the people who was incarcerated 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:16.139 there early on, on a contraband cell phone. And 00:04:16.139 --> 00:04:18.720 I said, you know, where are all the drugs coming 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.519 from, the amount of drugs here? This is an incredible, 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:26.509 you know, human. You're seeing just high, high 00:04:26.509 --> 00:04:28.550 percentage, maybe 80 % of the people are addicted 00:04:28.550 --> 00:04:30.829 to drugs, many of whom were not addicted to drugs 00:04:30.829 --> 00:04:32.930 before they came in. And how are you getting 00:04:32.930 --> 00:04:35.689 all the cell phones? And the guy looked at me 00:04:35.689 --> 00:04:40.290 like I was stupid. And he said, you know, we 00:04:40.290 --> 00:04:44.430 don't leave, right? And I thought, oh, I get 00:04:44.430 --> 00:04:46.529 it. The people that come and go are the guards. 00:04:46.769 --> 00:04:48.910 Those are the ones that go out. They get the 00:04:48.910 --> 00:04:51.170 packages. They bring them in. And I've spoken 00:04:51.170 --> 00:04:54.670 to guards who said, you know, we make. $36 ,000 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:57.810 a year without the drugs, without the cell phones. 00:04:58.029 --> 00:05:00.589 So, of course, we got to sell the cell phones 00:05:00.589 --> 00:05:03.050 and the drugs because that takes us up to $70 00:05:03.050 --> 00:05:10.769 ,000 or $75 ,000. Oh, God. Yeah. So what are 00:05:10.769 --> 00:05:12.850 the main drugs these guys are addicted to? What 00:05:12.850 --> 00:05:16.329 are they getting them? Well, there's – originally, 00:05:16.529 --> 00:05:18.230 right, it was sort of more traditional drugs 00:05:18.230 --> 00:05:21.310 and people were using heroin and using – whatever 00:05:21.310 --> 00:05:23.449 they could get a hold of. But as the drugs have 00:05:23.449 --> 00:05:27.670 gotten more complicated and easier to bring in, 00:05:27.790 --> 00:05:29.990 now they can actually put – there's a drug called 00:05:29.990 --> 00:05:33.709 Flaco, which is a very significant problem there, 00:05:33.949 --> 00:05:36.569 fentanyl obviously also. But these drugs can 00:05:36.569 --> 00:05:40.009 be brought in on a piece of paper. So somebody 00:05:40.009 --> 00:05:43.029 could send you a letter and it could be in the 00:05:43.029 --> 00:05:45.189 letter. They can actually put the drug into the 00:05:45.189 --> 00:05:47.329 paper. Oh, sort of like acid when they put acid 00:05:47.329 --> 00:05:51.170 on paper? Yeah. And so – You know, there's this 00:05:51.170 --> 00:05:54.449 effort to kind of stop that. But then does it 00:05:54.449 --> 00:05:56.670 lead to people being unable to communicate with 00:05:56.670 --> 00:05:59.490 their loved ones? Ultimately, the easiest way 00:05:59.490 --> 00:06:02.370 to get the drugs is for the officers to sell 00:06:02.370 --> 00:06:05.230 the drugs. And so, you know, we say, and I think 00:06:05.230 --> 00:06:08.009 it's sadly true that the Alabama Department of 00:06:08.009 --> 00:06:10.529 Corrections, and it's not just in Alabama, but 00:06:10.529 --> 00:06:12.850 obviously we use that as the lens through which 00:06:12.850 --> 00:06:15.649 we saw incarceration more generally. But the 00:06:15.649 --> 00:06:18.579 Alabama Department of Corrections. is the largest 00:06:18.579 --> 00:06:21.660 law enforcement agency in the state of Alabama, 00:06:21.860 --> 00:06:23.860 and it's also the biggest drug dealing operation. 00:06:25.660 --> 00:06:28.420 You know, you're much more likely to die of an 00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:31.180 overdose inside the prison than you are out on 00:06:31.180 --> 00:06:33.160 the street in Alabama. Really? Statistically? 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:39.600 Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, boy. You know, one of the 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:43.819 things that is... What was very heart -wrenching 00:06:43.819 --> 00:06:48.980 is this callous approach. You showed at the one 00:06:48.980 --> 00:06:51.259 time where all these prisons went on strike. 00:06:51.420 --> 00:06:53.399 So they all communicated with each other through 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:55.379 these contraband cell phones. They all got from 00:06:55.379 --> 00:06:57.079 the guards. So I guess it's ubiquitous throughout 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.540 the state. It's not just this one. Correct. And 00:06:59.540 --> 00:07:02.860 these people on the radio were like, well, it's 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:07.000 prison. It's supposed to suck. Maybe if they 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.399 had saw your film, they wouldn't have such a 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.860 cavalier attitude about it. It's that attitude. 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:16.279 It's like these are human beings and some of 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:20.040 them barely did anything. Like one guy that wound 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:23.639 up dying from you think they did something to 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:25.740 or they think they did something to a cigarette 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:30.579 that they gave this guy. All he did was break 00:07:30.579 --> 00:07:33.639 into an abandoned building. He didn't steal anything. 00:07:34.589 --> 00:07:37.230 Entering an unoccupied building. Yeah. His name 00:07:37.230 --> 00:07:38.209 is James Sayles. I mean, I don't even know if 00:07:38.209 --> 00:07:40.069 he broke in, right? It was unoccupied. It might 00:07:40.069 --> 00:07:41.670 have even been open. Yeah, it said entering. 00:07:42.589 --> 00:07:44.490 So he entered a building that he wasn't supposed 00:07:44.490 --> 00:07:48.069 to enter, and he got 15 years in a cage. And 00:07:48.069 --> 00:07:53.050 then on his way out, at least they're inferring 00:07:53.050 --> 00:07:55.759 that they killed him. Because he had too much 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:57.980 information about what was going on inside and 00:07:57.980 --> 00:07:59.600 he was going to get out. Yeah, this goes back 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.399 to the story of a woman who we had met and her 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:06.879 son. When we were first communicating with the 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:10.060 men using these contraband cell phones and they 00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:12.399 were telling us what was going on inside the 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:17.209 prison. inside the various prisons. In the early 00:08:17.209 --> 00:08:18.610 days, we couldn't believe it because the way 00:08:18.610 --> 00:08:21.170 we got into the prisons to begin with is I had 00:08:21.170 --> 00:08:25.250 gone down to Alabama because I was always interested 00:08:25.250 --> 00:08:28.610 in incarceration and the problems of that system 00:08:28.610 --> 00:08:30.610 and the justice system. I made other films about 00:08:30.610 --> 00:08:35.200 the justice system. I was always curious about 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:37.500 Alabama because it's sort of famously maybe the 00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:39.620 worst prison system in the country, but it mirrors 00:08:39.620 --> 00:08:42.320 a lot of others. And my daughter was 14 at the 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:46.019 time, Jeremy, and she said, you know, I'm reading 00:08:46.019 --> 00:08:48.019 this book by a guy named Anthony Ray Hinton, 00:08:48.139 --> 00:08:51.419 and it's a book about his wrongful imprisonment 00:08:51.419 --> 00:08:53.580 in Alabama, and maybe you should read this with 00:08:53.580 --> 00:08:55.559 me. So we ended up reading the book together, 00:08:55.659 --> 00:08:59.059 and then we both sort of just spontaneously decided 00:08:59.059 --> 00:09:01.360 to take a road trip to Montgomery because... 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:02.980 which didn't know anything about it, had never 00:09:02.980 --> 00:09:05.460 been there. She was growing up in New York and 00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:08.340 it was just not in her frame of reference. So 00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:11.139 we went down there and we met a man who was the 00:09:11.139 --> 00:09:13.720 first black prison chaplain in the state of Alabama, 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:17.299 Chaplain Browder. And I said, well, I'm really 00:09:17.299 --> 00:09:18.840 curious about what's going on in the prisons. 00:09:19.220 --> 00:09:22.399 And he said, well, you should just come in with 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:24.440 me. And I said, well, I'm a filmmaker. They're 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:26.139 not going to let me just walk into the prison 00:09:26.139 --> 00:09:28.139 in Alabama. And he said, well, just don't come 00:09:28.139 --> 00:09:30.419 in as a filmmaker. You just don't have to bring 00:09:30.419 --> 00:09:32.340 a camera. Just come in and talk to some of the 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:36.799 guys. So I went in to film. Ultimately, we were 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:39.200 allowed to film ultimately in one of the prisons. 00:09:39.740 --> 00:09:42.059 And when we were in there to film this revival 00:09:42.059 --> 00:09:44.179 meeting, just because we were lucky enough to 00:09:44.179 --> 00:09:47.519 find a warden who felt like, you know, he wanted 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:52.860 to show. an example of how Christianity was active 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:55.899 and important in the prison system, which I agreed 00:09:55.899 --> 00:09:58.860 with. But then while we were in there filming 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:02.639 with like five cameras, which was just unheard 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:04.659 of, the men inside couldn't believe that there 00:10:04.659 --> 00:10:07.620 were any cameras in there. And they started taking 00:10:07.620 --> 00:10:10.279 us aside and saying, listen, what they're showing 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:13.110 you here is a very curated... version of what's 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:14.789 going on in this prison. You have to get into 00:10:14.789 --> 00:10:17.009 these other buildings. You've got to see what's 00:10:17.009 --> 00:10:20.309 going on in that dorm over there called the behavior 00:10:20.309 --> 00:10:22.789 modification dorm where guys have been killed 00:10:22.789 --> 00:10:25.129 by guards. And you've got to look in that dorm 00:10:25.129 --> 00:10:26.750 where people have been in solitary confinement 00:10:26.750 --> 00:10:29.669 for five years at a time. You know, don't let 00:10:29.669 --> 00:10:31.850 them show you just what they want to show you. 00:10:32.110 --> 00:10:34.769 And I felt much safer, you know, even though 00:10:34.769 --> 00:10:36.669 the warden had said to us, when you go in there. 00:10:37.230 --> 00:10:38.649 You know, don't talk to any of the men. They're 00:10:38.649 --> 00:10:41.149 all very dangerous. I immediately felt safer 00:10:41.149 --> 00:10:43.129 talking to the inmates than I did talking to 00:10:43.129 --> 00:10:47.750 any of the guards. And when we left, it was really 00:10:47.750 --> 00:10:50.370 because we got kicked out, right? We start, you 00:10:50.370 --> 00:10:51.870 saw in the beginning of the film, we sort of 00:10:51.870 --> 00:10:53.789 start getting nosy and we start trying to look 00:10:53.789 --> 00:10:56.389 in some of these other areas. And then they shut 00:10:56.389 --> 00:10:58.490 down the filming. They throw us out. And then 00:10:58.490 --> 00:11:01.070 we thought, well. Maybe we're stuck now. How 00:11:01.070 --> 00:11:02.769 are we going to make a film about this? We feel 00:11:02.769 --> 00:11:05.110 we have to because we're the only people that 00:11:05.110 --> 00:11:07.889 know what's going on in here, but they're not 00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:10.529 going to let us back. So it was then that we 00:11:10.529 --> 00:11:13.149 found out that there was this network of men 00:11:13.149 --> 00:11:15.529 inside who had access to these contraband cell 00:11:15.529 --> 00:11:18.070 phones who were documenting what was going on. 00:11:18.210 --> 00:11:20.230 So that was our way of getting into those buildings 00:11:20.230 --> 00:11:23.429 that we couldn't see inside. And one of the first 00:11:23.429 --> 00:11:28.559 things we... learned was one of the guys inside, 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:33.960 Melvin Ray, texted us to say, hey, you know, 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.799 this guard, it was a guard that we had been tracking 00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:38.919 already who was a particularly violent guard. 00:11:39.539 --> 00:11:42.480 He just beat somebody very badly and he's now, 00:11:42.620 --> 00:11:45.879 that person, the victim is at UAB Hospital. So 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.299 we jumped in a car and we went to UAB Hospital 00:11:48.299 --> 00:11:50.980 and just walked up. I just put my iPhone in my 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:53.889 pocket and we just walked up to the... intensive 00:11:53.889 --> 00:11:56.929 care unit. And when we got there, we found that 00:11:56.929 --> 00:11:59.590 this young man, Stephen Davis, had died from 00:11:59.590 --> 00:12:03.350 his injuries. And as we started to get deeper 00:12:03.350 --> 00:12:05.970 into it, we went and visited his mother because 00:12:05.970 --> 00:12:08.169 we didn't even know if she knew that she had 00:12:08.169 --> 00:12:11.169 lost her son. But in fact, she had been with 00:12:11.169 --> 00:12:13.350 him when he passed away. She had sort of turned 00:12:13.350 --> 00:12:18.720 off the life support. And we said, We want to 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.000 make a film about this. We're trying to tell 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.299 the story. And she immediately said, I'm in. 00:12:24.379 --> 00:12:26.179 I want to help you. I don't want this to happen 00:12:26.179 --> 00:12:28.320 to any other mothers. You know, and this is a 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.139 very nice white lady from Uniontown, Alabama, 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:35.700 with an oxygen tank. I mean, she's not somebody 00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:37.620 that you would see ordinarily as kind of a heroic 00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:41.320 person. But when she loses her son, she really 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.779 becomes so activated. And she ends up. telling 00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:49.259 us the story. And then she says, look, they're 00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:52.679 lying to me already. My son just died last night 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:54.639 and they're already calling me and telling me 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:56.559 things about how he was the one that attacked 00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:59.299 guards. And none of this is true. This all seems 00:12:59.299 --> 00:13:02.500 like it's fake. So teach me how to record my 00:13:02.500 --> 00:13:06.200 phone calls. So this older woman suddenly became 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.519 a really important partner in making the film. 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:11.700 And this gets back to your question about Stephen 00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:15.320 Davis. So her son, who was a drug addict, Right. 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:19.100 Didn't kill anybody, but was in a car when a 00:13:19.100 --> 00:13:21.799 drug deal went bad. He went to try to buy drugs 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:23.399 and his friend went in the house and they had 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.279 a fight and somebody got shot. And then he got 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:28.740 arrested and was charged with murder because 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:31.659 that's how the felony murder statute works. And 00:13:31.659 --> 00:13:33.980 so here you have a drug addict who goes to prison 00:13:33.980 --> 00:13:38.740 in Alabama and is in the highest security. prison 00:13:38.740 --> 00:13:42.580 there and is targeted by a particular guard who 00:13:42.580 --> 00:13:45.080 is especially violent and is just beaten to death 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:49.519 in front of 70 witnesses. And then, of course, 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.700 as we go through the film, we start tracking 00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:55.970 that in our investigation and we start. looking 00:13:55.970 --> 00:13:58.909 into the cover -up and why they lied about how 00:13:58.909 --> 00:14:01.049 he had died and how they scrambled the witnesses 00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:04.529 and how the Department of Corrections is organized 00:14:04.529 --> 00:14:06.470 so that they prevent people from finding out 00:14:06.470 --> 00:14:08.529 what really happened to their kids or their loved 00:14:08.529 --> 00:14:12.169 ones and they avoid liability and so on. And 00:14:12.169 --> 00:14:15.490 there was one person that we ended up hearing 00:14:15.490 --> 00:14:19.169 from, this guy James Sales, who originally tells 00:14:19.169 --> 00:14:21.769 just... The police side of the story just says, 00:14:21.909 --> 00:14:23.809 well, you know, yeah, it's exactly the way that 00:14:23.809 --> 00:14:26.429 the guard said. But then he kind of hints on 00:14:26.429 --> 00:14:29.110 the phone. Listen, when I get out of here, I'll 00:14:29.110 --> 00:14:31.889 tell the real story. Now, do they have access 00:14:31.889 --> 00:14:34.750 to these communications? Is there a way they 00:14:34.750 --> 00:14:37.649 could be hacking into it and know that sales 00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:41.210 had said that to you? Well, the person that he 00:14:41.210 --> 00:14:44.149 said it to was the lawyer for Sandy Ray. So he 00:14:44.149 --> 00:14:48.590 was supposed to be on a. private attorney call. 00:14:48.889 --> 00:14:52.970 But we do think that the Department of Corrections 00:14:52.970 --> 00:14:56.190 doesn't abide by that. I think they do listen 00:14:56.190 --> 00:14:59.769 to attorney calls. Sales didn't say exactly on 00:14:59.769 --> 00:15:02.070 the phone what he was going to say, but I think 00:15:02.070 --> 00:15:04.110 they knew that he was a problem because he was 00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:06.950 a good person. I mean, Sales, the one who entered 00:15:06.950 --> 00:15:10.029 an unoccupied building and was locked up for 00:15:10.029 --> 00:15:13.529 15 years for that, was obviously a decent person. 00:15:13.590 --> 00:15:16.529 That's why he says, you know, when I get out, 00:15:17.300 --> 00:15:19.220 I'll speak to that. I'm not going to lie to that 00:15:19.220 --> 00:15:22.519 man's mother. But right now, this is their world, 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:26.059 bro. I'm not going to say more. I'm not going 00:15:26.059 --> 00:15:27.539 to put myself in their shoes. But just by saying 00:15:27.539 --> 00:15:31.480 that might have been his death sentence. He also, 00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:34.519 as he started to get closer to getting out, you 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:38.299 know, because he was killed a month before he 00:15:38.299 --> 00:15:41.240 was going to get out. And so as he started getting 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:44.019 closer to release, he just started to get more. 00:15:45.300 --> 00:15:48.399 and more angry and started to say things to guards 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.460 about like, you know, you know what I've seen 00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:53.200 in here and I'm going to, you know. And then 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:59.659 lo and behold, he gets found in his cell dead. 00:15:59.899 --> 00:16:02.759 And, you know, he's bleeding from orifices in 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:04.580 his body. And it was pretty clear that he was 00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:06.919 given what they call a hot shot, which is they 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:08.679 give you a cigarette that's got something bad 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:17.080 on it and it can kill you. Boy. So when you first 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:20.179 started – when you first showed up with cameras, 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.679 did you know basically what was going on? Do 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:25.519 you have an understanding of what was going on? 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.059 Like what were you attempting to do when you 00:16:28.059 --> 00:16:30.019 got there? Were you just going to try to investigate 00:16:30.019 --> 00:16:33.500 and figure it out? Or did you already have reports? 00:16:34.059 --> 00:16:37.240 We already – we knew a bunch of stuff. We knew 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.860 because we had had this – we had visited some 00:16:39.860 --> 00:16:43.220 prisons as volunteers. And I had gone on the 00:16:43.220 --> 00:16:46.669 death row. with my filmmaking partner, Charlotte 00:16:46.669 --> 00:16:49.850 Kaufman. We had gone into Easterling. We had 00:16:49.850 --> 00:16:51.710 gone originally into Holman Prison where they 00:16:51.710 --> 00:16:54.230 have the death row. And we went in there with 00:16:54.230 --> 00:16:56.950 the chaplain. And the lieutenant came down and 00:16:56.950 --> 00:17:03.009 said, you know, unfortunately, we're so... understaffed 00:17:03.009 --> 00:17:05.630 right now, which is an understatement, that, 00:17:05.769 --> 00:17:07.430 you know, we don't have anybody to take you around. 00:17:07.549 --> 00:17:10.130 But, you know, chaplain, I know you want to show 00:17:10.130 --> 00:17:12.029 your friends around the death row. So, you know, 00:17:12.029 --> 00:17:14.269 just go for it. So we ended up walking around 00:17:14.269 --> 00:17:16.869 the death row for like two or three hours just 00:17:16.869 --> 00:17:21.569 talking to men. And those men were very helpful. 00:17:21.809 --> 00:17:23.690 They weren't, you know, we weren't talking to 00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:25.890 irrational people. We weren't talking to, you 00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:28.019 know, they're... There are people who were trying 00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:30.400 to get the story out. And so we knew going in 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:31.880 that there were a lot of bad things happening. 00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:34.460 We didn't know exactly what. And then when we 00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:36.339 went into Easterling and the men started calling 00:17:36.339 --> 00:17:39.779 us aside and saying, you know, they beat me so 00:17:39.779 --> 00:17:43.220 bad I defecated on myself. Or, you know, I just 00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:45.640 saw there were five stabbings this week and none 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.200 have been reported. We started to realize that 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.500 it was really a huge crisis, but it was just 00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:54.200 being kept secret. This episode is brought to 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:57.700 you by Surfshark. With the help of AI, scammers 00:17:57.700 --> 00:17:59.759 are getting smarter every day, sending emails 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.319 that look legit. but are designed to steal your 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.680 data, passwords, and money. If you want to stay 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.819 protected, you got to check out Surfshark. It's 00:18:07.819 --> 00:18:11.619 way more than your good old VPN. It's an all 00:18:11.619 --> 00:18:14.460 -in -one security tool. They have a ton of advanced 00:18:14.460 --> 00:18:16.980 features, and one in particular that's called 00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:20.299 Email Scam Checker. This thing notifies you if 00:18:20.299 --> 00:18:22.960 an email you received is a scam or a phishing 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:25.220 attempt. So instead of just guessing whether 00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:28.119 the bank email is real, you can check it before 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:58.220 you click. And of course, Surfshark Go to surfshark 00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:02.079 .com slash rogan. or use code ROGAN at checkout 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:05.779 and get four extra months of Surfshark. Surfshark 00:19:05.779 --> 00:19:10.539 .com slash ROGAN or code ROGAN for four extra 00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:16.640 months. So it's crazy that you're relying on 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:20.319 these guards to get in the phones that they're 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.579 using to expose the crimes of the guards. So 00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:26.339 and it's like the guards are aware of the phones 00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.859 because they provided them to the inmates and 00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:31.019 they're contraband. They're not supposed to have 00:19:31.019 --> 00:19:34.099 them, but yet they all do. And so they have to 00:19:34.099 --> 00:19:36.180 ignore it if they want to keep selling them phones. 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:39.920 Well, another way of looking at it is that there's 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:43.599 so little accountability that they don't actually 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:45.160 think they're going to get in trouble for anything. 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.170 And they're kind of right. And if you remember 00:19:48.170 --> 00:19:52.329 that guard who kills Stephen Davis, Rod Gadsden, 00:19:52.410 --> 00:19:54.970 this guy might be the most violent prison guard 00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:57.329 in America. He's still working in the Alabama 00:19:57.329 --> 00:20:00.230 state prison system. After he has a starring 00:20:00.230 --> 00:20:03.470 role against his will, I'm sure, but after he 00:20:03.470 --> 00:20:05.369 has a starring role in our documentary, which 00:20:05.369 --> 00:20:08.170 has been seen by millions of people, they still 00:20:08.170 --> 00:20:09.890 have him employed there. They still have him 00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:13.009 interacting with people. Hired to a higher position. 00:20:13.309 --> 00:20:15.769 Yeah, yeah. He's been promoted twice and now 00:20:15.769 --> 00:20:18.950 he's up for another promotion. So I think to 00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:21.509 some extent the guards just say, well, you know, 00:20:21.529 --> 00:20:23.369 I can do whatever I want. I can sell the cell 00:20:23.369 --> 00:20:25.289 phones. And by the way, not all the guards are 00:20:25.289 --> 00:20:28.029 bad, right? There are guards that we met there. 00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:31.500 who were pretty heartbroken because they went 00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:34.539 into the system hoping to make change or trying 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:36.799 to maybe they wanted to work in the police department 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.460 and there weren't any jobs. But in their town, 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:41.460 they had the ability to work in a prison. So 00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:43.700 they kind of went in there and described to us 00:20:43.700 --> 00:20:45.240 that they wanted to help people with addiction. 00:20:45.619 --> 00:20:47.759 They wanted to see if they could help rehabilitate 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.039 people. But when they got in there, they realized 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:52.799 very quickly that was not. what was in the offing. 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.660 That wasn't an opportunity for them. So the guy, 00:20:55.779 --> 00:20:58.319 this Roderick guy that beat Stephen to death, 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.980 the story was that Stephen had some sort of an 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:05.420 implemented weapon, correct? Yeah, that he had 00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:07.799 a plastic knife. Right. Was there any evidence 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:13.420 of that? He had some kind of plastic thing that 00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:16.900 he had made. It did not appear to be anything 00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:20.109 very serious because... The reason he had made 00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:23.130 it is because somebody had called him gay. And 00:21:23.130 --> 00:21:25.349 you have to fight your way out of that, right? 00:21:25.430 --> 00:21:28.730 He wasn't gay, as it turns out. You have to fight 00:21:28.730 --> 00:21:30.349 your way out of that? So if somebody calls you 00:21:30.349 --> 00:21:32.730 gay, you have to fight them? Yeah. In other words, 00:21:32.730 --> 00:21:34.349 you can't put up with that because otherwise 00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:36.430 they're going to turn you into what they call 00:21:36.430 --> 00:21:38.210 a sissy. They're going to turn you into somebody 00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:40.910 that gets raped. And there's so much rape in 00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:44.470 the prison that the DOJ report that came out 00:21:44.470 --> 00:21:46.490 said that there's rape occurring at all hours 00:21:46.490 --> 00:21:48.990 of the day and night in all areas of the prison. 00:21:49.309 --> 00:21:53.869 So rape is such a significant problem. And when 00:21:53.869 --> 00:21:57.069 Stephen Davis was in there and was accused of 00:21:57.069 --> 00:22:00.849 being gay, he had to make a show of fighting 00:22:00.849 --> 00:22:04.029 the person that was calling him gay. He never 00:22:04.029 --> 00:22:05.670 went after the guards or anything like that. 00:22:05.750 --> 00:22:10.109 And everybody that the lawyer spoke to, a dozen 00:22:10.109 --> 00:22:12.630 witnesses who had seen what happened, all of 00:22:12.630 --> 00:22:16.150 them said as soon as the guards came in, he immediately 00:22:16.150 --> 00:22:18.869 laid down on the floor and put his weapon about 00:22:18.869 --> 00:22:21.650 15 feet away from him, put this plastic knife. 00:22:22.250 --> 00:22:26.269 15 feet away. And then the guards came in and 00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:27.930 just started beating him, even though there was 00:22:27.930 --> 00:22:30.609 no threat. And the guards would say, Gadson was 00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:33.289 saying to Stephen Davis, you know, quit resisting, 00:22:33.529 --> 00:22:36.170 quit resisting. And he wasn't resisting at all. 00:22:36.289 --> 00:22:38.009 And that's what all the witnesses said. So they 00:22:38.009 --> 00:22:40.710 just have to say that so they yell it out? Yeah, 00:22:40.789 --> 00:22:43.089 it's almost, I think it was almost like, it was 00:22:43.089 --> 00:22:45.049 almost just a warning to everybody else. Like, 00:22:45.069 --> 00:22:47.589 look, I can do anything that I want. I can say 00:22:47.589 --> 00:22:50.309 that he's resisting. Isn't it funny? You know, 00:22:50.309 --> 00:22:53.309 and the way, you know, the way he kills him. 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.059 He stomps on his head with his size 15 boot. 00:22:57.259 --> 00:23:00.339 This is a guy who's almost 300 pounds. I think 00:23:00.339 --> 00:23:04.019 he's about six foot five. And he's been implicated 00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:08.880 in 24 other excessive force cases. And the attorney 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.779 general in Alabama every single time is defending 00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:14.559 the guard. How many other people died in those 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.059 cases? There have been a lot of other injuries. 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:20.099 I think that there have been two people who've 00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:23.720 died out of the 24 or 25 cases that we know about. 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.279 But there are a lot of just maimings. There are 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.500 a lot of situations where people are just damaged, 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.619 often permanently. You saw what happened at Kinetic 00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:34.839 Justice when he, you know, Robert Earl Counsel, 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:39.400 when he leads a nonviolent work strike. The guards 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:42.759 come and attack him and he loses sight in one 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:45.480 of his eyes. He's dragged out of the cell. There's 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.180 a huge amount of blood. So, you know, especially 00:23:49.180 --> 00:23:51.920 these guys who are leading a nonviolent effort 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:55.000 to try to improve conditions, they're always 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.640 met with violence. Right. He was the guy that 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.259 was at the head of this strike. Yeah. And then 00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:02.960 the strike really highlights something that I 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.210 think. a lot of people are unaware of is how 00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:08.809 many industries actually use the prison system 00:24:08.809 --> 00:24:12.109 essentially for slave labor. Sure. Yeah. I mean, 00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:14.829 that was a shock to me, I think, is that, you 00:24:14.829 --> 00:24:16.789 know, I guess we all sort of assume, well, if 00:24:16.789 --> 00:24:18.869 you're in prison and they ask you to mop the 00:24:18.869 --> 00:24:21.509 floor, you need to help serve the meals or something, 00:24:21.630 --> 00:24:23.910 you know, that's a reasonable thing to do. I 00:24:23.910 --> 00:24:25.950 think what we don't realize is that those people 00:24:25.950 --> 00:24:30.119 are leased out to the governor. to the mansion 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.339 where the governor lives. Crazy. That was crazy. 00:24:33.579 --> 00:24:35.660 Yeah, yeah. People that were denied parole were 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:38.759 allowed to be on the grounds of the governor's 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.740 mansion doing like groundwork. Exactly. Landscaping 00:24:41.740 --> 00:24:46.359 and stuff. Yeah, yeah. And beyond that, they're 00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:50.299 used for labor in industry, right? So those guys 00:24:50.299 --> 00:24:53.180 are sent out in the mornings in vans. They go 00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:56.259 work at McDonald's. They work at Burger King. 00:24:56.380 --> 00:24:58.079 They work at Kentucky Fried Chicken. They work 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.500 at the Hyundai plant. They work at the Budweiser 00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:04.480 distributorship. And it's all sort of under the 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:06.059 heading of, well, this is good for the guys. 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:09.240 They get to get out into the community. But it's 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:11.900 a forced labor situation because if they don't, 00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:14.799 if they don't accept those assignments, then 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:16.480 they're going to be punished. And they're going 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.700 to be punished with long stays in solitary confinement. 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:21.220 They're going to be given disciplinaries so that 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:26.049 their sentences can be extended. are often just 00:25:26.049 --> 00:25:28.769 beaten for that. So it's really an extension. 00:25:28.829 --> 00:25:33.829 I've heard you on your show talk about the Jim 00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:36.930 Crow laws, which led to convict leasing. And 00:25:36.930 --> 00:25:39.180 what we're seeing in Alabama now... It's not 00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:42.559 like convict leasing. It is exactly convict leasing. 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.059 They are just selling the labor of incarcerated 00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:48.799 people to industries. For pennies on the dollar 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.160 of what you would get if you had to pay people. 00:25:51.500 --> 00:25:54.099 Yeah. I mean they get paid well. They get paid 00:25:54.099 --> 00:25:57.079 well. Yeah. But not the – you're saying they, 00:25:57.180 --> 00:25:59.380 meaning the prisons, get paid well. Yes. But 00:25:59.380 --> 00:26:02.000 not the prisoners. Correct. The prisoners get 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.930 any money? They get a little money. For example, 00:26:05.069 --> 00:26:08.049 the guy you see who's driving a sanitation truck, 00:26:08.369 --> 00:26:13.430 Danny Dandridge. describes how he's getting paid 00:26:13.430 --> 00:26:17.029 $2 a day. Now, is that standard across the board 00:26:17.029 --> 00:26:21.130 for all those other jobs? I think for that job, 00:26:21.470 --> 00:26:24.890 they get paid a little bit of money. And then 00:26:24.890 --> 00:26:27.470 on top of that, they're charged for the cost 00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:29.569 of the van that takes them to the workplace. 00:26:29.769 --> 00:26:31.589 They're charged for the uniform that they have 00:26:31.589 --> 00:26:34.549 to wear. So it's sort of like they're kind of 00:26:34.549 --> 00:26:36.849 fees and fines that knock everything down to 00:26:36.849 --> 00:26:40.910 almost nothing. And in a lot of cases, The $2 00:26:40.910 --> 00:26:44.829 a day is a lot. They're required to do lots of 00:26:44.829 --> 00:26:48.349 work unpaid in the prisons. They do all the construction. 00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:52.769 You could see that even the drug dorm where the 00:26:52.769 --> 00:26:57.089 counselor decided to leave his job, there was 00:26:57.089 --> 00:26:59.430 a professional drug counselor in one of the prisons. 00:27:00.069 --> 00:27:03.750 And nobody replaces him. And so Raoul Poole, 00:27:03.849 --> 00:27:07.089 one of the guys in our film, just starts running 00:27:07.089 --> 00:27:10.000 the drug dorm. That's a drug dorm that's getting 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.140 money from the federal government to pay for 00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:15.539 drug treatment program in prison. And that money 00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:17.640 is just not going anywhere or money is just going 00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:19.619 into the coffers of whoever is running the prison 00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:23.519 system. And is there any accountability for all 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:25.740 the money? Is there any – do they do an audit 00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:29.640 of the money? Is it just – There really is not 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.480 any meaningful accountability. There's like the 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:34.779 state auditor who we actually interviewed and 00:27:34.779 --> 00:27:37.200 spent a lot of time with. just sort of threw 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.200 up his hands. You know, he said, there's just 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:42.079 no way for me to keep track of this money. And, 00:27:42.099 --> 00:27:46.859 you know, for example, they got this incredibly 00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:50.660 horrible set of findings from the Justice Department, 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:53.359 right? The DOJ went into the Alabama state prison 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.339 system and did an investigation because, for 00:27:56.339 --> 00:27:58.180 reasons I can explain, they're kind of incredible. 00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.440 But anyway, they went in there and they investigated 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.160 the whole prison system, which I think they'd 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.259 never done before. You know, usually they investigate. 00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:07.700 an individual prison or something like that. 00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:12.359 And they went in and issued a report that said, 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.839 this is beyond the pale. There's horrific things 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:17.720 that are happening in your prisons, people being 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:19.700 murdered, and there's the highest rate of drug 00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:24.299 overdose and highest rate of rape. And Alabama's 00:28:24.299 --> 00:28:27.079 response was to say, well, we think that's just 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:29.099 anecdotal and you don't know what you're talking 00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:32.500 about. And then they decided that their solution 00:28:33.369 --> 00:28:35.930 the Alabama solution that we sort of ironically 00:28:35.930 --> 00:28:38.390 talk about in the title of the film, the one 00:28:38.390 --> 00:28:40.690 the governor talks about, is just to build new 00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:45.130 prisons. And meantime, the DOJ did not say to 00:28:45.130 --> 00:28:48.210 build any new prisons. The DOJ said, your problem 00:28:48.210 --> 00:28:51.589 is with corruption and brutality, and you're 00:28:51.589 --> 00:28:55.849 operating really a criminal enterprise. And therefore... 00:28:56.430 --> 00:28:58.930 You need to address the underlying problems. 00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:02.109 And Alabama's response was, well, the DOJ says 00:29:02.109 --> 00:29:03.990 the prisons are no good. So we got to build new 00:29:03.990 --> 00:29:07.069 ones. Well, that, you know, so they get a massive 00:29:07.069 --> 00:29:09.410 contract. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, we always 00:29:09.410 --> 00:29:11.049 call it the Alabama Department of Construction 00:29:11.049 --> 00:29:14.150 because they don't really change anything unless 00:29:14.150 --> 00:29:15.930 they have the opportunity to build something. 00:29:16.230 --> 00:29:19.029 And that's really good for all the governor supporters 00:29:19.029 --> 00:29:21.289 and all the other people who are, you know, in 00:29:21.289 --> 00:29:24.259 the construction industry. And, you know. They've 00:29:24.259 --> 00:29:28.220 now started construction on these massive new 00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:31.740 prisons. Alabama is a tiny state. It's like a 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:34.900 smaller population, I think, than Norway. And 00:29:34.900 --> 00:29:38.599 they've got a tiny budget, and yet they figure 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.920 out how to put together a multibillion -dollar 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:46.220 prison construction plan. They can't. fund it 00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:48.660 at first. The governor announces she's going 00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:50.700 to build these new prisons, which the DOJ did 00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:53.240 not ask for, and are not going to solve the problem. 00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:54.759 And they admit, by the way, that they're not 00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:57.059 going to affect overcrowding, which is a huge 00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:59.160 problem. The prisons are operating at like 200 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:01.980 % capacity. And, you know, when they're asked 00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:04.519 about it, the head of the Department of Corrections... 00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:07.369 They ask him, you know, is this going to affect 00:30:07.369 --> 00:30:10.269 the overcrowding or is it just the same number 00:30:10.269 --> 00:30:12.029 of beds? And he goes, no, it's the same number 00:30:12.029 --> 00:30:14.329 of beds. You know, it's not going to affect overcrowding. 00:30:14.589 --> 00:30:17.069 So they're building these massive new facilities. 00:30:17.569 --> 00:30:20.210 The governor can't get them paid for. She can't 00:30:20.210 --> 00:30:23.289 raise the money in a bond offering. So they go 00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:25.769 after the COVID money that they got from the 00:30:25.769 --> 00:30:28.609 government, which is not designed to build prisons, 00:30:28.809 --> 00:30:30.609 right? It's very hard to argue that building 00:30:30.609 --> 00:30:32.609 prisons is something that's going to relieve. 00:30:33.450 --> 00:30:35.430 some other kind of health problem or whatever. 00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:41.410 And then I think they get fined for that or you 00:30:41.410 --> 00:30:43.930 have to pay a fine if you use government money 00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:47.089 for a thing that's not supposed to be for. And 00:30:47.089 --> 00:30:50.809 then when they start construction, they still 00:30:50.809 --> 00:30:52.849 can't raise the money, but they start building 00:30:52.849 --> 00:30:55.450 the new prisons even before they're authorized 00:30:55.450 --> 00:30:58.369 by the legislature. That's how clearly it was 00:30:58.369 --> 00:31:01.970 communicated that these prisons were going to 00:31:01.970 --> 00:31:05.200 happen. You know, in other words, we had a crew 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.920 in Alabama that was watching this site of this 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:11.579 one massive prison that they were planning on 00:31:11.579 --> 00:31:14.259 building. And there were just bean fields. And 00:31:14.259 --> 00:31:17.220 it's quite beautiful, actually. And one day I 00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.819 get a call from somebody and they say, we got 00:31:18.819 --> 00:31:22.019 to start filming because there are 25 Earthmovers 00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:24.619 here. And I said, well, that's impossible because 00:31:24.619 --> 00:31:27.319 the legislature hasn't even approved the new 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:29.779 prison construction. And they said, well, the 00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:31.740 prison construction companies know what's happening 00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:34.119 and they're already spending hundreds of thousands 00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:36.980 of dollars just to clear the site. So the fix 00:31:36.980 --> 00:31:40.440 was in on this new prison construction. And the 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:42.000 governor announced that it was going to cost 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.079 $900 million to build three new prisons. So far, 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:48.759 they've broken ground and are far along on the 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:54.329 first prison. And it's up to $1 .3 billion. So 00:31:54.329 --> 00:31:58.109 when you open that door, a whole lot of commerce 00:31:58.109 --> 00:32:02.130 comes in. A whole lot of companies come in. And 00:32:02.130 --> 00:32:05.250 they ask them, why was it so expensive? How did 00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:07.990 it go from $300 million for one prison to $1 00:32:07.990 --> 00:32:12.710 .3 billion for one prison and counting? And they 00:32:12.710 --> 00:32:17.609 said, well, it's inflation. Meanwhile, I'm pretty 00:32:17.609 --> 00:32:19.069 sure that the government is not going to say 00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:21.470 that we got 400 percent inflation at the moment. 00:32:22.750 --> 00:32:28.210 So it's kind of institutionalized thievery. It's 00:32:28.210 --> 00:32:31.170 organized crime. Yeah. It means when you are 00:32:31.170 --> 00:32:34.809 in charge of deciding what's crime and you're 00:32:34.809 --> 00:32:38.690 running a state like Alabama. Yeah. Yeah. And 00:32:38.690 --> 00:32:42.490 I think money in the justice system is a very 00:32:42.490 --> 00:32:45.190 perverting factor. You know, I made this film, 00:32:45.230 --> 00:32:49.069 this series called The Jinx. Great fucking series, 00:32:49.190 --> 00:32:51.670 by the way. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Crazy. 00:32:52.230 --> 00:32:55.730 Yeah. Like, you watch this going, what? Yeah. 00:32:55.910 --> 00:33:00.869 Is this real? Yeah, me too. I mean, you know, 00:33:00.890 --> 00:33:05.930 he's an incredible person to watch. But one thing 00:33:05.930 --> 00:33:08.440 about him is... You know, that family's worth 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:11.559 $9 billion. This is not like a regular rich person 00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:14.119 in America. This is an extra, super -duper rich 00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.700 person in America. And he's killed three people 00:33:16.700 --> 00:33:19.140 over 30 years and just walking around, gotten 00:33:19.140 --> 00:33:22.019 away with it. Meantime, you have, you know, young 00:33:22.019 --> 00:33:26.240 women moms in Brazos County Jail in Texas. You 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.119 know, our mutual friend Jeff Ross did a documentary 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:32.190 there. And he interviews the— girls that are 00:33:32.190 --> 00:33:33.730 in there. And he says, what are you in here for? 00:33:33.910 --> 00:33:36.190 And two of them say, I'm in here because I stole 00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:40.829 baby formula. So, you know, that's a money. Money 00:33:40.829 --> 00:33:49.609 means a lot in this equation. Yeah. Yeah. The 00:33:49.609 --> 00:33:52.650 money stuff is is all over the place. You know, 00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:56.650 it's that the perverting of the system with money 00:33:56.650 --> 00:34:01.519 you see because, you know, for example. These 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.799 big prison companies like GeoGroup and CoreCivic 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:08.340 make money by having full prisons. They're private 00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:11.119 prison companies. But there are lots of prison 00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:13.099 – there are a lot of companies that provide services 00:34:13.099 --> 00:34:16.920 to public prisons, to state prisons like Cisco 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:19.059 and all these companies that sell food there. 00:34:19.219 --> 00:34:21.219 But everybody makes more money if the prisons 00:34:21.219 --> 00:34:29.000 are full. And so you have the head of CoreCivic 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.809 just – did a shareholder call not too long ago. 00:34:33.269 --> 00:34:35.989 And he's Henninger, I think his name is. And 00:34:35.989 --> 00:34:38.309 they said, you know, what do you think, what's 00:34:38.309 --> 00:34:40.250 the outlook? And he said, oh, with all the new 00:34:40.250 --> 00:34:43.550 immigration prisons and all the prisons and all 00:34:43.550 --> 00:34:48.010 the increased, you know, emphasis on law enforcement 00:34:48.010 --> 00:34:51.449 and on incarceration, you know, this is the most 00:34:51.449 --> 00:34:55.469 exciting time in my career. So, you know, you're 00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:58.989 really building this prison industrial complex. 00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:03.079 every day, especially right now, I think. And 00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:06.420 all these people are doing, they're all doing 00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:12.179 bad stuff. There's a company called Securus, 00:35:12.219 --> 00:35:17.320 which is run by Tom Gores, who is a big team 00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:19.940 owner, owns the Pistons, Detroit Pistons and 00:35:19.940 --> 00:35:23.559 some other teams, and is a private equity guy 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:27.400 worth about $10 billion. And his company, Securus, 00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:31.340 does communications for the prison systems. And 00:35:31.340 --> 00:35:34.960 they made deals that have now been sort of exposed, 00:35:35.059 --> 00:35:38.599 but they made deals with sheriff's departments 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:41.719 where they had jails. And they said, instead 00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:45.679 of letting kids visit their parents in jail and 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:47.960 actually get to see them and hug them and maybe 00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:52.099 have some kind of normalcy. let's install video 00:35:52.099 --> 00:35:55.619 visit terminals. So the cover story was the video 00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:57.000 visits are going to be great because you don't 00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.519 have to drive across the state to see your loved 00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:04.000 one. But the contract specifically said that 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.380 they had to replace in -person visits. So when 00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:10.880 a kid went to go visit his dad, even if he was 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:13.780 20 yards away from him in the prison waiting 00:36:13.780 --> 00:36:17.159 room, he had to use a video terminal, which cost 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:20.309 $12 .99 for 20 minutes. And he was not allowed 00:36:20.309 --> 00:36:25.570 to see his dad in person. So that's an example 00:36:25.570 --> 00:36:28.630 of – and that's in the contract. That's in the 00:36:28.630 --> 00:36:30.690 Securus contract that said that they have to 00:36:30.690 --> 00:36:33.409 eliminate the in -person visits. So when you 00:36:33.409 --> 00:36:37.170 allow that for -profit motive to be driving things 00:36:37.170 --> 00:36:40.110 in these like state institutions where theoretically 00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:44.150 we should have some kind of like moral approach 00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:47.929 that makes sense for society or can help community 00:36:47.929 --> 00:36:51.340 or build. relationships or help people stay in 00:36:51.340 --> 00:36:53.659 touch with their loved ones when they're incarcerated. 00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:58.139 When you add that for -profit motive there, the 00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:01.639 system is just designed to exploit. It just is 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:05.539 natural that all those people have to get, you 00:37:05.539 --> 00:37:08.800 know, they all have, there's a kind of a value 00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:11.099 to every visit. Every time a visit, you know, 00:37:11.099 --> 00:37:13.940 every time a kid comes and visits a parent, it's 00:37:13.940 --> 00:37:17.090 worth $12 .99. Well, why do it for free if you 00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:23.369 can get $12 .99 for it? It's one of the darker 00:37:23.369 --> 00:37:26.849 aspects of human nature in regards to our relationship 00:37:26.849 --> 00:37:31.309 with money. That so many people, if unchecked, 00:37:31.309 --> 00:37:33.829 if you give them the opportunity to make more 00:37:33.829 --> 00:37:35.570 money at the expense of other people, they do 00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:38.909 it. They just do it. They do it, especially under 00:37:38.909 --> 00:37:42.139 the framework of a corporation. The framework 00:37:42.139 --> 00:37:45.539 of a corporation allows you to have a diffusion 00:37:45.539 --> 00:37:48.400 of responsibility because you don't think that 00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.719 you're the one doing this horrible thing. It's 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.099 this thing that you work for and I'm just doing 00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:57.119 my job. And also if you're involved in a corrupt 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.500 system and this is your job and you think of 00:38:00.500 --> 00:38:02.099 these people as all good people that are part 00:38:02.099 --> 00:38:05.460 of the corrupt system, it sort of minimizes the 00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:08.260 horrible feelings that you have about that corruption. 00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:12.650 You just dismiss it. I really believe – I've 00:38:12.650 --> 00:38:14.369 heard you talk about the fusion of responsibility 00:38:14.369 --> 00:38:19.309 before. I think it's such a huge part of what 00:38:19.309 --> 00:38:23.449 drives all this is that you have people who don't 00:38:23.449 --> 00:38:26.230 really have to ask themselves the hard question. 00:38:26.730 --> 00:38:29.750 Am I the person that's exploiting somebody? Am 00:38:29.750 --> 00:38:32.710 I the person that's overcharging a mom? Am I 00:38:32.710 --> 00:38:35.389 the person that's charging somebody a crazy amount 00:38:35.389 --> 00:38:38.730 of money for their medication or allowing somebody 00:38:38.730 --> 00:38:42.929 to die from medical neglect? Because once you 00:38:42.929 --> 00:38:46.730 have a corporation and you look at that org chart, 00:38:46.989 --> 00:38:49.469 you know, you can see the org chart as, oh, that's 00:38:49.469 --> 00:38:52.309 a nice orderly way of getting commerce to move 00:38:52.309 --> 00:38:55.369 forward. But it's also... a thousand points of 00:38:55.369 --> 00:38:59.349 responsibility. Every one of those persons just 00:38:59.349 --> 00:39:02.170 takes a tiny measure of responsibility. Well, 00:39:02.210 --> 00:39:04.190 I'm just in the accounting department. I mean, 00:39:04.210 --> 00:39:07.449 I don't make the rules. I don't make the laws. 00:39:07.750 --> 00:39:10.429 And you see that in the healthcare industry, 00:39:10.590 --> 00:39:14.039 people... recording their calls with their healthcare 00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.059 providers or their insurance companies saying, 00:39:16.139 --> 00:39:18.460 oh, I'm sorry, I really can't answer. That's 00:39:18.460 --> 00:39:20.480 not my job. Somebody else makes that decision. 00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:23.840 And so when you have these massive organizations, 00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:27.619 there's a way for very bad things to happen. 00:39:27.699 --> 00:39:31.000 And it's like the death of a thousand cuts. And 00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.559 it's also everybody's trying to maximize profit. 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:37.039 And when you're trying to maximize profit, You 00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:39.159 just find some ways to justify things. Like your 00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:42.199 main job is not to help people. These prisons 00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:43.880 aren't rehabilitation centers. You're trying 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.320 to make – like you actually profit off people 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:50.239 becoming like functional members of society once 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:52.440 they get released. That would be amazing. Then 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:54.280 you'd have an incentive to make people better 00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:57.559 people in prison. Like imagine if their profit 00:39:57.559 --> 00:40:01.360 was based on people being rehabilitated, reentering 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.579 society and becoming functional – Proper members 00:40:06.579 --> 00:40:09.599 of society where they contribute. Sure. Yeah. 00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:11.900 I mean, the incentives are so they're so twisted. 00:40:11.900 --> 00:40:13.940 Yeah, they're so twisted. It's like that saying 00:40:13.940 --> 00:40:15.900 money is the root of all evil. It's not the root 00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:18.119 of all evil. It's the root of most of it, though. 00:40:18.260 --> 00:40:20.679 It's like a giant percentage of it. Maybe it's 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:23.239 75 percent of evil. The rest of it's like, what, 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:27.179 lust? Yeah. I mean, my anger, jealousy. Yeah. 00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:30.119 That's the root of a lot of evil. You know, whatever, 00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:34.139 whatever the other percentages. But money. 60 00:40:34.139 --> 00:40:36.579 % maybe? Let's be charitable? It's the root of 00:40:36.579 --> 00:40:39.880 a lot of fucking evil, man. And when you can 00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:42.579 do it inside of this framework of a corporation, 00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:47.719 it's so twisted because it's ubiquitous. It exists 00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:50.780 in almost all industries. There's always, whether 00:40:50.780 --> 00:40:53.059 it's the, like, this is the reason why people 00:40:53.059 --> 00:40:55.960 celebrated when that healthcare executive was 00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:58.699 shot. They were like, hey, man, fuck you guys. 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:01.300 Like, yeah, finally one of you guys got it. I 00:41:01.300 --> 00:41:04.059 lost my dad. I lost my mom. I lost my sister. 00:41:04.420 --> 00:41:08.219 You know, that kind of shit is in every fucking 00:41:08.219 --> 00:41:11.699 industry. Yeah. Whether it's military industrial 00:41:11.699 --> 00:41:14.320 complex, whether it's the health insurance complex, 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:16.880 whether it's pharmaceutical drug industry, when 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:18.719 you look at the Sackler family and what they 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:22.059 did with opioids. I'm sure you've seen the Netflix, 00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:26.019 the Peter Berg Netflix painkiller series. Fucking 00:41:26.019 --> 00:41:28.199 incredible. It's just incredible that that guy's 00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.960 just walking around. You're responsible for the 00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:33.900 death of who knows how many people. Because who 00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:37.519 knows how many people that had relationships 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.260 with the people that got addicted also lost their 00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:43.199 lives, also lost everything. Because you're dealing 00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:47.099 with a brother or a mom that's completely lost 00:41:47.099 --> 00:41:50.440 and addicted. Your life is hijacked now by this 00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:53.690 situation. You've lost your dad. You've lost 00:41:53.690 --> 00:41:57.289 your mom. You lost a spouse. Fuck. Yeah. I mean, 00:41:57.309 --> 00:41:59.809 you know, I've heard you talk a lot about mental 00:41:59.809 --> 00:42:04.090 health. And obviously there are a lot of causes 00:42:04.090 --> 00:42:06.730 of mental health problems. And, you know, that 00:42:06.730 --> 00:42:10.789 includes social media. It includes sort of alienation. 00:42:10.789 --> 00:42:12.949 It includes a lot of things that are present 00:42:12.949 --> 00:42:18.929 in society. But the prison industrial complex 00:42:18.929 --> 00:42:22.480 and the – experience of having somebody incarcerated 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:29.019 has a huge impact on mental health. I think people 00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:30.500 don't realize when you have 2 million people 00:42:30.500 --> 00:42:34.809 locked up in these facilities and... Many of 00:42:34.809 --> 00:42:37.170 them are just being traumatized every day, whether 00:42:37.170 --> 00:42:39.050 they're seeing somebody get killed or they're 00:42:39.050 --> 00:42:41.730 constantly in fear for their life. The idea that 00:42:41.730 --> 00:42:43.829 those people are going to somehow be OK when 00:42:43.829 --> 00:42:45.909 you want to let them out 10 years later and they're 00:42:45.909 --> 00:42:48.230 going to rejoin society, you give them $50 and 00:42:48.230 --> 00:42:50.510 a bus ticket and you say, hey, I hope you can 00:42:50.510 --> 00:42:52.550 become a taxpayer. Meantime, they don't have 00:42:52.550 --> 00:42:55.449 enough money to pay for one red roof in for one 00:42:55.449 --> 00:42:59.030 night. They can't do anything. When they get 00:42:59.030 --> 00:43:01.929 out of prison and then we say, well, why is there 00:43:01.929 --> 00:43:03.989 such high recidivism? I guess that means they're 00:43:03.989 --> 00:43:07.210 bad people. So let's put them back in. So the 00:43:07.210 --> 00:43:09.170 mental health implications for the people that 00:43:09.170 --> 00:43:11.849 are incarcerated are huge and the people who 00:43:11.849 --> 00:43:14.429 are in their families, as you say. Imagine the 00:43:14.429 --> 00:43:16.730 anxiety. You don't have any family members and 00:43:16.730 --> 00:43:19.550 they're going to give you $50. And now you're 00:43:19.550 --> 00:43:22.550 out and you have to figure out how to eat, how 00:43:22.550 --> 00:43:24.570 to get a roof over your head and try to figure 00:43:24.570 --> 00:43:27.630 out a way to earn money. Yeah. The $50. Yeah. 00:43:28.110 --> 00:43:31.389 And there are ways to do it. If you go into the 00:43:31.389 --> 00:43:34.289 – I mean all this sounds very dark and horrible 00:43:34.289 --> 00:43:41.789 and it is. But there are a lot of positive developments 00:43:41.789 --> 00:43:44.190 that you can see when you give them a chance 00:43:44.190 --> 00:43:50.469 to grow in society. So for example, like I love 00:43:50.469 --> 00:43:54.210 what you say about community, about the importance 00:43:54.210 --> 00:43:57.090 of building community and seeing the country. 00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:02.739 community. And if we're torturing people that 00:44:02.739 --> 00:44:05.239 are in our community, if we're being cruel to 00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:06.920 people that are in our community, what does it 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:11.780 say about us? What does it say about Christianity? 00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:16.599 What does it say about God? What does it say 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:21.800 about forgiveness? And clearly, we see that there 00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:26.269 are... so many instances where people are trying, 00:44:26.389 --> 00:44:29.030 trying to do something better. There's a woman 00:44:29.030 --> 00:44:33.010 named Erica in Alabama who was a mental health 00:44:33.010 --> 00:44:37.030 professional. And she described to me what it 00:44:37.030 --> 00:44:39.030 was like to try to give mental health services 00:44:39.030 --> 00:44:42.889 to people who are incarcerated. And I was trying 00:44:42.889 --> 00:44:45.750 to figure out, looking at these images of the 00:44:45.750 --> 00:44:47.889 places that they keep people and these cells, 00:44:48.130 --> 00:44:50.309 these solitary cells with just a little tray 00:44:50.309 --> 00:44:54.260 slot. And they're in there for in a five -by 00:44:54.260 --> 00:44:57.960 -eight room with no windows, and they could be 00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:01.880 in there literally for years. And I said to her, 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:04.119 well, can you tell me, like, when you do a session 00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:06.940 with somebody and you're trying to, you know, 00:45:06.940 --> 00:45:09.860 talk to them about their suicidal ideation or 00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:12.760 their various problems, you know, what does that 00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:14.219 look like? How does that work? And she goes, 00:45:14.300 --> 00:45:16.199 well, you know, it's a little uncomfortable because, 00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:18.559 you know, I got to be on my knees. And I said, 00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:21.900 wait, why are you on your knees? She said, oh, 00:45:21.940 --> 00:45:23.579 well, I have to be able to talk through the tray 00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:26.960 slot. And I said, so when you're giving a mental 00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:29.699 health counseling session to somebody who's incarcerated, 00:45:30.099 --> 00:45:33.260 you're not allowed to open the door. You're not 00:45:33.260 --> 00:45:35.539 allowed to see, assuming that person's not like 00:45:35.539 --> 00:45:38.400 having a violent fit or something like that. 00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:41.139 You're not allowed to sit down across from them 00:45:41.139 --> 00:45:42.920 and have that conversation. She said, no, no, 00:45:42.940 --> 00:45:45.760 no. But it's OK. I just put my mouth up to the 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.300 tray slot. And I just thought. When you think 00:45:49.300 --> 00:45:52.400 about the idea that that's going to be somehow 00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:55.320 something that will give relief to somebody who's 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:57.440 really struggling with a mental health crisis 00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:01.659 in prison, we're doing the absolute minimum. 00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:04.099 We're checking the box that says, yeah, once 00:46:04.099 --> 00:46:06.179 a month this guy has a psychiatric evaluation. 00:46:06.940 --> 00:46:09.000 But nobody's taking a picture of that and showing 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.400 what it really looks like to have this nice young 00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:15.840 lady, this idealistic young mental health person. 00:46:16.660 --> 00:46:19.900 kneeling outside of a metal cell with, you know, 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:22.320 bloodstains on it, talking to somebody inside. 00:46:22.619 --> 00:46:24.980 Through a food slot. Through a food slot. And 00:46:24.980 --> 00:46:27.019 that's probably the only interaction this person 00:46:27.019 --> 00:46:28.699 has with human beings other than the guards. 00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:34.400 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Who are very cruel. Yeah. And 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:38.320 you're alone in that cell, which is also terrible 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:40.679 for mental health. Like, there's nothing worse 00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:43.000 for mental health than complete total isolation 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:46.849 with no access to anything. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:46:47.230 --> 00:46:51.070 Have you ever had experiences with people, friends 00:46:51.070 --> 00:46:53.090 or family who've been incarcerated? Oh, yeah. 00:46:53.289 --> 00:46:57.630 Yeah. Quite a few. What's that been like? Well, 00:46:57.750 --> 00:47:01.329 I had this one friend that I used to do martial 00:47:01.329 --> 00:47:07.969 arts with when I was a kid. And when I was probably 00:47:07.969 --> 00:47:13.050 around 16, 16 or 17, he wound up going to jail. 00:47:13.230 --> 00:47:17.230 I didn't know him that well. But I knew him as 00:47:17.230 --> 00:47:20.969 this guy who competed in tournaments and, you 00:47:20.969 --> 00:47:22.730 know, he would show up and train with us. And 00:47:22.730 --> 00:47:26.170 he's just a pretty tough guy. He went into jail 00:47:26.170 --> 00:47:28.969 and he came out, first of all, much bigger. He 00:47:28.969 --> 00:47:31.969 was just like stacked with muscle. All of his 00:47:31.969 --> 00:47:35.690 tattoos he burned off. So he had scars, like 00:47:35.690 --> 00:47:39.250 these big keloid scars over all of his tattoos 00:47:39.250 --> 00:47:43.730 now. And he was a completely different person. 00:47:44.269 --> 00:47:47.750 like a violent animal, like a terrifying guy 00:47:47.750 --> 00:47:49.610 to spar with. If you spar with him, you were 00:47:49.610 --> 00:47:52.110 in a, it wasn't, there was nothing, no holding 00:47:52.110 --> 00:47:55.409 back. Sparring, for the most part, when you like 00:47:55.409 --> 00:47:59.650 people, you're hitting them only a certain percentage 00:47:59.650 --> 00:48:02.170 of your strength. This guy was not doing any 00:48:02.170 --> 00:48:04.989 of that. He was full blast with everything. It 00:48:04.989 --> 00:48:09.929 was like a caged animal. And as I got to be closer 00:48:09.929 --> 00:48:12.309 to him, I actually became closer to him after 00:48:12.309 --> 00:48:15.630 he got out of prison. Than he was before. Because 00:48:15.630 --> 00:48:17.670 I just spent more time sparring him. And hanging 00:48:17.670 --> 00:48:20.030 out and training with him. And being in these 00:48:20.030 --> 00:48:22.969 group classes with him. He started telling me 00:48:22.969 --> 00:48:26.130 stories. About what it was like in jail. And 00:48:26.130 --> 00:48:28.710 just fighting for his life. He had to take on 00:48:28.710 --> 00:48:31.190 three guys. And he picked up a broomstick. And 00:48:31.190 --> 00:48:32.349 he was beating these guys. He was just telling 00:48:32.349 --> 00:48:35.650 me these crazy stories. Of guys trying to kill 00:48:35.650 --> 00:48:38.090 him in jail. And he was in there for three years 00:48:38.090 --> 00:48:40.250 for drug selling. And then he went right back 00:48:40.250 --> 00:48:45.449 to selling drugs. And he eventually got arrested. 00:48:45.670 --> 00:48:47.969 And I've told this story before. It's kind of 00:48:47.969 --> 00:48:53.409 crazy. They found a guy that had every bone in 00:48:53.409 --> 00:48:57.429 his body broken with hammers. And they kept him 00:48:57.429 --> 00:49:00.170 awake by injecting him with cocaine. They kept 00:49:00.170 --> 00:49:02.610 injecting him with cocaine. And then they cut 00:49:02.610 --> 00:49:04.590 his arms off. They cut his hands off. And then 00:49:04.590 --> 00:49:06.769 they cut his head off. And they found his body. 00:49:06.829 --> 00:49:08.670 But it's like all of his bones have been shattered. 00:49:08.809 --> 00:49:12.559 And this guy that I knew as a kid. Got arrested 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:16.099 for that. They never wound up trying him for 00:49:16.099 --> 00:49:18.920 that. They brought him in for questioning. He 00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:21.539 definitely knew something about it. He knew either 00:49:21.539 --> 00:49:23.179 the people that did it or knew something about 00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:25.260 it. It was all drug related and he was selling 00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:29.239 cocaine. And then I lost touch with him after 00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:32.519 that. That's a crazy story. Oh, yeah. I knew 00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:35.099 quite a few guys like that. Because the world 00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:38.480 of fighting, like people that are interested 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:41.920 in... and entering in competitions with people, 00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:44.739 you get a lot of troubled people, a lot of very 00:49:44.739 --> 00:49:47.760 angry people. You know, a lot of them that come 00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:50.659 from violent households. They were beaten as 00:49:50.659 --> 00:49:53.599 children or they were bullied as kids, depending 00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:58.599 on where. I came from the most mild of those 00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:02.219 environments. I didn't have anybody abusing me. 00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:05.519 I lived in the suburbs of Boston. I lived in 00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:07.079 Newton, which is a really nice neighborhood. 00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.360 I just was interested in martial arts. And then 00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:12.800 I was fascinated by this idea of bettering myself 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:14.599 through competition because it was so scary. 00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:17.719 And then all of a sudden I'm around like hit 00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:20.480 men. I knew one guy who was a hit man for Whitey 00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:24.400 Bulger. And I would train him. I would teach 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:27.440 this guy how to do martial arts. And he was an 00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.900 assassin. That's amazing. It was very strange. 00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:34.900 I knew a bunch of organized crime figures, mostly 00:50:34.900 --> 00:50:37.630 with the Irish mob. A lot of those guys came 00:50:37.630 --> 00:50:40.510 and trained, and especially because they knew 00:50:40.510 --> 00:50:43.230 some other guys that we knew that were – one 00:50:43.230 --> 00:50:46.349 of my friends who was a professional boxer, and 00:50:46.349 --> 00:50:49.010 he lived in South Boston. He was very tight with 00:50:49.010 --> 00:50:50.469 a lot of these guys, so some of these guys came 00:50:50.469 --> 00:50:53.309 to train with us. It was a very weird exposure 00:50:53.309 --> 00:50:55.590 for me. I've never been around any of that. I 00:50:55.590 --> 00:50:58.190 never had anyone in my family that went to jail. 00:50:58.349 --> 00:51:01.679 No one was a – You know, no one was a criminal. 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:03.199 No one was a drug addict. No, there's nothing 00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:05.179 really crazy. Yeah. And then all of a sudden 00:51:05.179 --> 00:51:08.079 I was around a lot of these people that either 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:12.059 went to jail eventually or had been in jail. 00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:15.699 Yeah. Because I think there's that question of. 00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:20.440 People say, well, if you don't like the prison 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:22.579 system the way it is or if you don't think people 00:51:22.579 --> 00:51:24.960 should get locked up forever, then you're just 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.360 soft on crime and obviously you're some kind 00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:34.699 of snowflake. But clearly there's a role for 00:51:34.699 --> 00:51:39.239 prison. There's a role for jail. The question 00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:43.159 is whether we should be putting people into institutions 00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:46.900 that just further. Damage them. Further re -traumatize 00:51:46.900 --> 00:51:49.000 them. Right. Just making them hardened. They're 00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.159 going to be worse criminals if they get out. 00:51:51.500 --> 00:51:54.800 If and when they get out. Yeah. And there's no 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:56.900 emphasis on rehabilitation. So that's the thing. 00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:58.320 It's like if you're releasing them back into 00:51:58.320 --> 00:51:59.800 the street, like what are you doing to the rest 00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:02.380 of society? If you're taking a person who's committed 00:52:02.380 --> 00:52:05.360 a violent crime, making them way worse in jail 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.980 and then releasing them. This is like a slow 00:52:07.980 --> 00:52:11.650 bomb. It's a slow -release bomb. And then also 00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:13.110 they have no options because no one wants to 00:52:13.110 --> 00:52:15.050 hire an ex -convict, especially someone who went 00:52:15.050 --> 00:52:17.090 to jail for aggravated assault or something like 00:52:17.090 --> 00:52:20.869 that. So it's very, very difficult for these 00:52:20.869 --> 00:52:23.349 people and very, very difficult for society to 00:52:23.349 --> 00:52:25.949 make a decision. You want to make a quick fix 00:52:25.949 --> 00:52:27.809 of something. You want to protect people. Just 00:52:27.809 --> 00:52:29.949 keep them in jail. Keep everybody in jail. But 00:52:29.949 --> 00:52:34.369 there's zero emphasis on how to take a person 00:52:34.369 --> 00:52:37.639 from – A completely broken childhood, broken 00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:40.960 home, violence, drug addiction in the home, all 00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:47.099 the chaos, completely being accustomed to violent 00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:48.860 crime because it's all around you. It's in your 00:52:48.860 --> 00:52:51.679 neighborhood. You imitate your atmosphere. And 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:53.800 then what do we do with these people? There's 00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:55.679 no emphasis whatsoever on it. It's just using 00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.619 them as human batteries to generate money. And 00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:01.239 that's evil. That's what's really crazy. And 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:03.539 this is where people have subverted this idea 00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:07.659 of – of incarceration being some sort of a rehabilitation 00:53:07.659 --> 00:53:10.940 or correction, right? They call them correctional 00:53:10.940 --> 00:53:13.679 facilities. You're not correcting anything. You're 00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:15.699 just making money. You're just making money off 00:53:15.699 --> 00:53:17.260 of people and you're taking advantage of the 00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:19.219 fact that no one wants to pay attention to it 00:53:19.219 --> 00:53:21.760 because society generally looks at people that 00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:23.840 are criminals and have committed violent crimes 00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:26.840 as like, oh, well, fuck them. Push them aside. 00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:29.079 And look, there's some people. That I agree. 00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:31.420 Yeah, fuck them. If there's people that have 00:53:31.420 --> 00:53:33.800 killed a bunch of people and raped a bunch of 00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:36.219 people and are constantly robbing people and 00:53:36.219 --> 00:53:38.000 breaking into houses that are violent, yeah, 00:53:38.019 --> 00:53:40.280 fuck those people. Fuck those people. But that's 00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:43.639 a small percentage of what's in jail. A large 00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:46.099 percentage is nonviolent drug offenders. And 00:53:46.099 --> 00:53:48.559 that's where it gets really weird. It's like 00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:51.610 so a person is deciding. You can have the drugs 00:53:51.610 --> 00:53:53.650 that we sanction. You can have the drugs that 00:53:53.650 --> 00:53:56.090 we tax. You can have these drugs. You can have 00:53:56.090 --> 00:53:58.349 these prescription drugs. You can have this drug 00:53:58.349 --> 00:53:59.929 that you buy in the liquor store that we call 00:53:59.929 --> 00:54:02.429 alcohol, which is clearly a drug. You could buy 00:54:02.429 --> 00:54:04.710 your cigarettes. You could buy your coffee. You 00:54:04.710 --> 00:54:06.769 could get all these drugs that we like. Adderall? 00:54:06.829 --> 00:54:09.630 You need Adderall. Andrew, I think you have a 00:54:09.630 --> 00:54:12.010 little ADHD. Maybe you should use some fucking 00:54:12.010 --> 00:54:14.889 speed, and we'll sell you that speed, and we'll 00:54:14.889 --> 00:54:18.480 tax that speed. Anything else? We'll put you 00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:21.480 in a cage because you're not following our rules. 00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:25.659 And it's like a grown adult telling another grown 00:54:25.659 --> 00:54:28.320 adult what they can or can't do with their life 00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.820 is responsible for, what, 50 % of the people 00:54:31.820 --> 00:54:35.449 that are in cages? That's kind of crazy. It's 00:54:35.449 --> 00:54:37.190 almost time for spring break, so maybe you're 00:54:37.190 --> 00:54:39.289 headed to the beach or maybe you're taking the 00:54:39.289 --> 00:54:41.929 kids on a road trip or maybe you're just taking 00:54:41.929 --> 00:54:44.170 some extra time for yourself. No matter what, 00:54:44.309 --> 00:54:47.070 you deserve a break and a reset, and AG1 can 00:54:47.070 --> 00:54:50.489 help. AG1 is your daily health drink. 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Everybody that is in prison 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:54.260 for something that we don't think, the average 00:55:54.260 --> 00:55:56.099 person doesn't think they should be in prison 00:55:56.099 --> 00:55:58.780 for for many, many, many years, like a drug crime 00:55:58.780 --> 00:56:03.000 or being an addict basically, that those people 00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.139 – that all those people have been let out already. 00:56:06.500 --> 00:56:09.239 That somehow like prison activist people have 00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:11.840 said, well, all the people that are in there 00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:15.940 for drug crimes should be released. But it's 00:56:15.940 --> 00:56:19.280 not – It's not really true. You have an enormous 00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:23.500 criminalization of drug addiction. So you're 00:56:23.500 --> 00:56:26.539 already making people sort of feel hopeless. 00:56:26.820 --> 00:56:29.340 Then they're turning to drugs and then you're 00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:32.780 putting them into cages. So like Steve Marshall, 00:56:33.019 --> 00:56:37.360 for example, the AG in Alabama says, well, we've 00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:39.920 already released all of the nonviolent criminals. 00:56:40.139 --> 00:56:42.059 Right. So the only people that are locked in 00:56:42.059 --> 00:56:44.059 there are the worst of the worst. But, you know, 00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:46.320 that's. Clearly not true just because of sales 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:48.679 from your documentary. Yeah, of course. So you 00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:52.019 have – and he was put into a maximum security 00:56:52.019 --> 00:56:55.139 facility for entering an unoccupied building. 00:56:55.849 --> 00:56:58.690 That's because there's sort of an inflation of 00:56:58.690 --> 00:57:02.090 this concept of violence. So they will – in Alabama, 00:57:02.170 --> 00:57:04.469 I think there are 44 different crimes that are 00:57:04.469 --> 00:57:07.610 considered violent crimes. And they include crimes 00:57:07.610 --> 00:57:10.969 that you and I would not consider violent. So 00:57:10.969 --> 00:57:13.650 if somebody threatens somebody verbally like 00:57:13.650 --> 00:57:16.969 most people do in arguments with people that 00:57:16.969 --> 00:57:19.030 they're mad at or whatever but doesn't assault 00:57:19.030 --> 00:57:21.449 somebody, that could be considered a violent 00:57:21.449 --> 00:57:25.219 crime. If somebody enters a building with – whether 00:57:25.219 --> 00:57:27.599 they steal something or not, that could be considered 00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:30.519 a violent crime. And so it makes it easier just 00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:33.360 to, as you say, like, I like that image of the 00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:36.679 battery. I think about it as like sometimes like 00:57:36.679 --> 00:57:39.380 the matrix that, you know, for Alabama to do 00:57:39.380 --> 00:57:41.639 what it's doing, it's got to have 20 ,000 people 00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:45.559 in suspended animation because that's how you 00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:48.039 can use them for labor. That's how you can use 00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:49.920 them to sell them stuff. That's how you can. 00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:53.000 charge them for fees and fines, you know, that 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:55.760 you need that many people. I think they did a 00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:58.019 terrible thing when they allowed private prisons. 00:57:58.260 --> 00:58:02.539 I think it's a terrible thing. I think, like, 00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:04.219 if you think about the people that founded this 00:58:04.219 --> 00:58:07.420 country and the people that wrote the Constitution, 00:58:07.619 --> 00:58:11.179 they had a great understanding of where, how 00:58:11.179 --> 00:58:14.940 tyranny can emerge. And so they tried to create 00:58:14.940 --> 00:58:19.219 a system in, again, 1776. Crazy to think that 00:58:19.219 --> 00:58:21.420 we're still following those same rules today. 00:58:21.699 --> 00:58:23.860 But they had a great understanding. Don't worry. 00:58:23.940 --> 00:58:26.719 We're not following those rules. But the checks 00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:29.260 and balances and make sure that one person couldn't 00:58:29.260 --> 00:58:35.940 accumulate all of the power. Whoever first initiated 00:58:35.940 --> 00:58:40.460 the policy of allowing and paying for private 00:58:40.460 --> 00:58:43.860 prisons to exist in this country did not. think 00:58:43.860 --> 00:58:46.079 it through like that at all, did not think of 00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:49.139 incentives, did not think of how people always, 00:58:49.420 --> 00:58:52.219 when given the chance to make more money, figure 00:58:52.219 --> 00:58:55.099 out a way to justify making that more money and 00:58:55.099 --> 00:58:59.440 come up with rules or regulations or carve -outs, 00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:02.300 caveats, some reason why they can continue to 00:59:02.300 --> 00:59:04.579 accelerate. And then you don't think about the 00:59:04.579 --> 00:59:09.019 fact that prison guard unions and these private 00:59:09.019 --> 00:59:11.860 prisons, these people that own them, actively 00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:15.940 work to keep some laws on the books that maybe 00:59:15.940 --> 00:59:18.079 the general public would not want to be illegal 00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:21.139 anymore, certain things. And they do that just 00:59:21.139 --> 00:59:22.940 so they can keep their prisons full, so they 00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:25.380 can keep making more money. So then they take 00:59:25.380 --> 00:59:27.860 the money that they get from these private prisons 00:59:27.860 --> 00:59:29.599 where they're using people as human batteries 00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:33.119 to make sure there's still laws in place that 00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:35.059 are ridiculous so that they can keep arresting 00:59:35.059 --> 00:59:37.480 people so they can keep filling up their buildings 00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:39.820 and making more. And the fact that nobody saw 00:59:39.820 --> 00:59:43.039 that coming. Nobody saw that coming. They saw 00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:45.579 it coming. I don't even know if they did. I think 00:59:45.579 --> 00:59:47.679 they probably short term were just saying, oh, 00:59:47.739 --> 00:59:50.119 this is a good business. We'll get into it. Then 00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:51.480 the business is like, we've got to grow this 00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:53.639 business, just like everything else. Like if 00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:55.719 you're selling tires, you've got to make better 00:59:55.719 --> 00:59:58.860 tires, sell more tires. We want to be number 00:59:58.860 --> 01:00:01.079 one in the tire business. Well, they're trying 01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:03.099 to be number one in the human battery business. 01:00:03.440 --> 01:00:07.079 And that's what's fucking insane about allowing 01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:09.400 that in this country. And how do you put that 01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:11.980 genie back in the bottle? I don't know. But I 01:00:11.980 --> 01:00:15.019 think it's very sick. Well, the genie's figured 01:00:15.019 --> 01:00:19.659 out a way to get into a whole new bottle. because 01:00:19.659 --> 01:00:24.000 a lot of people say to us, well, this film that 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.159 you made, The Alabama Solution, is obviously 01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.559 about Alabama state prisons. Are those private 01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:33.079 prisons? And we always say, no, those are state 01:00:33.079 --> 01:00:36.320 -run institutions. But they kind of function 01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:39.570 like... private prisons in a way because they're 01:00:39.570 --> 01:00:43.349 able to make deals with securists about their 01:00:43.349 --> 01:00:46.150 prison phone system. And that makes millions 01:00:46.150 --> 01:00:48.050 and millions and millions of dollars that's extracted 01:00:48.050 --> 01:00:50.369 from the poorest people in the country, right, 01:00:50.449 --> 01:00:54.260 who are being charged like high... daily and 01:00:54.260 --> 01:00:58.139 even per minute fees for being able to communicate 01:00:58.139 --> 01:01:01.280 with their families. Then you have companies 01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:03.900 who are selling the food to the prisons. You 01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:06.559 have companies that are doing health care contracts 01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:10.340 with the prisons. And so there's so much money 01:01:10.340 --> 01:01:13.300 in that that they sort of, even though the state 01:01:13.300 --> 01:01:17.119 owns that piece of land, it still kind of functions 01:01:17.119 --> 01:01:19.920 the way that private prisons function. So we've 01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:23.730 sort of just given over. the care of 2 million 01:01:23.730 --> 01:01:29.289 Americans to companies that are accountable to 01:01:29.289 --> 01:01:31.269 their shareholders, maybe, but the shareholders 01:01:31.269 --> 01:01:33.349 don't know. Well, they're certainly not accountable 01:01:33.349 --> 01:01:38.090 to humane living conditions. That one scene where 01:01:38.090 --> 01:01:40.110 Kinetic Justice, that gentleman, what's his real 01:01:40.110 --> 01:01:42.849 name? Robert Earl Counsel. When Robert Earl Counsel 01:01:42.849 --> 01:01:45.989 was in solitary and you see the rat swimming 01:01:45.989 --> 01:01:48.980 in his toilet? Rats are swimming in his toilet 01:01:48.980 --> 01:01:51.260 and he has rats in a water jar. And what did 01:01:51.260 --> 01:01:55.139 he say? Eleven caught in one night. And why are 01:01:55.139 --> 01:01:57.579 they there? Because he tries to put his food 01:01:57.579 --> 01:02:00.519 in a bag that hangs on the door of the cell. 01:02:00.699 --> 01:02:02.760 But then they write him a disciplinary for doing 01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:05.159 that. But if he takes his food out of the bag 01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:07.679 and he puts it on the counter, then the rats 01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:08.840 are going to get it during the night. They're 01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:11.480 just everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So there are rats 01:02:11.480 --> 01:02:14.159 all – there are rats throughout the prison. And 01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:17.000 so he has to sleep in this room where these rats 01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:20.340 are crawling all over him at night. Yeah. And 01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:22.699 people – just to get into him for a second. I 01:02:22.699 --> 01:02:26.340 mean he is frankly one of the most – one of the 01:02:26.340 --> 01:02:30.380 bravest people I've ever met in my life. This 01:02:30.380 --> 01:02:32.519 is a guy who was incarcerated when he was 19 01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:36.880 and he was selling drugs in his neighborhood. 01:02:38.579 --> 01:02:41.039 Somebody – is trying to chase him down with a 01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:45.659 car and almost runs him over and he shoots the 01:02:45.659 --> 01:02:47.760 person through the window and the guy dies. So 01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:51.820 this is now 30 years ago. In any other condition, 01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:53.739 you would have thought that's a self -defense 01:02:53.739 --> 01:02:59.039 case, right? It was clear that he was trying 01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:00.760 to prevent somebody from running him over with 01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:03.800 a car. And yet here he is 30 years later with 01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:06.800 a life without parole sentence in an Alabama 01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:11.289 prison. And he's spending his time trying to 01:03:11.289 --> 01:03:16.329 organize nonviolent labor strikes. He's trying 01:03:16.329 --> 01:03:18.809 to do hunger strikes. He's trying to use every 01:03:18.809 --> 01:03:24.070 method that he can use to call attention to the 01:03:24.070 --> 01:03:27.190 problem that 20 ,000 other people have. And he's 01:03:27.190 --> 01:03:29.210 using a contraband cell phone to talk to us, 01:03:29.289 --> 01:03:31.510 knowing that he's probably going to get retaliated 01:03:31.510 --> 01:03:33.610 against by the authorities once the film comes 01:03:33.610 --> 01:03:36.530 out or once they know that he's organizing a 01:03:36.530 --> 01:03:43.070 labor strike. He would be an unbelievable asset 01:03:43.070 --> 01:03:46.489 to society if he were out in the world, right? 01:03:46.610 --> 01:03:49.690 He's advocating for nonviolence. He's obviously 01:03:49.690 --> 01:03:52.510 smart as a whip. And he's incredibly motivating 01:03:52.510 --> 01:03:54.849 to other people. You know, he's got that entire 01:03:54.849 --> 01:03:58.599 prison system. Listening to him when they want 01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:00.679 to be violent because they're so angry at the 01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:04.699 treatment and the prison system starts bird feeding 01:04:04.699 --> 01:04:07.739 them, starts to cut off their food rations to 01:04:07.739 --> 01:04:10.719 force them back to work. And kinetic, Robert 01:04:10.719 --> 01:04:13.179 Earl is the person who says, you know, that's 01:04:13.179 --> 01:04:14.719 not going to solve anything. We don't want to 01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:18.539 do that. So, you know, you see this huge level 01:04:18.539 --> 01:04:23.260 of humanity, talent, thoughtfulness. in people 01:04:23.260 --> 01:04:26.159 that are locked away. And we just assume, well, 01:04:26.219 --> 01:04:27.699 if they're in prison, that means that they're 01:04:27.699 --> 01:04:30.059 bad people. In the meantime, there's so many 01:04:30.059 --> 01:04:32.260 other people on the outside who don't get locked 01:04:32.260 --> 01:04:36.980 up for doing things that are much worse. So it's 01:04:36.980 --> 01:04:40.079 a very confusing message to be sending. Well, 01:04:40.179 --> 01:04:42.019 especially for someone like you who did the jinx 01:04:42.019 --> 01:04:44.920 and then you do this. Yeah. I mean, it's a really 01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:48.739 good point. I worked for a long time on the story 01:04:48.739 --> 01:04:51.940 of Robert Durst. And when we discovered evidence 01:04:51.940 --> 01:04:56.059 that showed that he had killed his wife and his 01:04:56.059 --> 01:04:59.199 best friend and his neighbor in Galveston dismembered 01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:03.099 him, we found the only evidence that proved that 01:05:03.099 --> 01:05:06.920 he did those things. And suddenly I was in a 01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:09.119 dialogue with the L .A. district attorney, the 01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:12.139 L .A. PD, talking about how to get him arrested. 01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:15.860 And even if I don't believe in the way that we 01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:18.619 incarcerate people, it's clear that there's a 01:05:18.619 --> 01:05:21.820 role for prison. Clearly a guy like Bob Durst 01:05:21.820 --> 01:05:24.780 who keeps killing people needs to be taken out 01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:27.480 of society. What kind of prison is he in? Well, 01:05:27.500 --> 01:05:32.460 he died now and he was locked up in a facility 01:05:32.460 --> 01:05:35.760 in Northern California. It was sort of a facility 01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:38.659 for senior citizens who had medical problems. 01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:42.119 So a lot of really rich people, as you could 01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:44.980 tell from – there have been a bunch of cases 01:05:44.980 --> 01:05:49.000 on this. Really rich people hire consultants. 01:05:49.789 --> 01:05:52.210 to help them navigate what prison they're going 01:05:52.210 --> 01:05:55.190 to end up going to. They can negotiate for better 01:05:55.190 --> 01:05:59.690 conditions. And so you end up with that sort 01:05:59.690 --> 01:06:02.170 of situation where a guy who maybe has stolen 01:06:02.170 --> 01:06:05.710 $100 million and not paid his taxes or taken 01:06:05.710 --> 01:06:09.210 money from his workers or committed some horrible 01:06:09.210 --> 01:06:13.349 act of fraud ends up in a prison farm, ends up 01:06:13.349 --> 01:06:16.309 in a pretty nice facility where he has access 01:06:16.309 --> 01:06:20.099 to... Lots of things. And then you have poor 01:06:20.099 --> 01:06:21.820 people that are locked up in places that have 01:06:21.820 --> 01:06:26.519 rats in their cells and vermin. But, yeah, I 01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:30.739 was always sort of amazed that Robert Durst was 01:06:30.739 --> 01:06:33.159 able to get away with what he got away with for 01:06:33.159 --> 01:06:39.280 so long. Why do you think that is? How much did 01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:41.699 you know about it before you started the documentary 01:06:41.699 --> 01:06:45.380 series? Well, I knew a lot because I had made 01:06:45.380 --> 01:06:48.139 a film, a narrative film called All Good Things 01:06:48.139 --> 01:06:52.360 about sort of Robert Durst's origin story, his 01:06:52.360 --> 01:06:54.800 relationship with his beautiful wife when they 01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:57.340 were both young, before all the bad stuff started 01:06:57.340 --> 01:07:00.639 happening and he became the guy that he became. 01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:04.380 There was this kind of strange love story between 01:07:04.380 --> 01:07:08.019 this kind of difficult man and this very lovely 01:07:08.019 --> 01:07:14.659 girl, Kathleen McCormick. And I made this film. 01:07:14.739 --> 01:07:17.300 Ryan Gosling played the Bob Durst character and 01:07:17.300 --> 01:07:21.780 Kirsten Dunst played played his wife and really 01:07:21.780 --> 01:07:24.280 investigated that story so that we could tell 01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:27.079 that the tale of what had happened to them in 01:07:27.079 --> 01:07:29.800 an accurate way. And while I was doing that, 01:07:29.940 --> 01:07:34.719 we reached out to Robert Durst, to the real Robert 01:07:34.719 --> 01:07:36.539 Durst. And I said, you know, we're making this 01:07:36.539 --> 01:07:38.920 film about I guess we spoke to his lawyer. So 01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:40.599 we're making this film about you, about your 01:07:40.599 --> 01:07:44.199 client. And we'd like to talk to him, get his 01:07:44.199 --> 01:07:45.719 input, make sure that we're trying to tell the 01:07:45.719 --> 01:07:46.940 story accurately. What was the premise of the 01:07:46.940 --> 01:07:49.760 film? It was basically the story about him and 01:07:49.760 --> 01:07:52.860 his wife when they first met, this rich guy and 01:07:52.860 --> 01:07:54.679 this girl from sort of the other side of the 01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:57.400 tracks, and then how eventually that relationship 01:07:57.400 --> 01:08:00.739 got toxic. Eventually he kills her. And then 01:08:00.739 --> 01:08:04.920 later his best friend, Susan Berman. who knows 01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:08.559 about what happened to his wife, starts to become 01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:11.440 problematic. Then he kills her. And then later 01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:14.780 he moves to Galveston, Texas, and disguises himself 01:08:14.780 --> 01:08:18.479 as a deaf mute woman, if you remember this. And 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:23.439 he ends up becoming friends with his elderly 01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:26.619 neighbor and this guy named Morris Black. And 01:08:26.619 --> 01:08:29.979 they go out shooting on Pelican Island and so 01:08:29.979 --> 01:08:32.520 on. And eventually they have a little altercation. 01:08:33.430 --> 01:08:35.989 Because he figured out who Bob Durst was and 01:08:35.989 --> 01:08:38.649 that he was sort of on the run. And he dismembers 01:08:38.649 --> 01:08:41.890 that man. He kills him and dismembers him. This 01:08:41.890 --> 01:08:44.569 movie with Kristen Dunst, when was that released? 01:08:45.310 --> 01:08:47.829 I guess we started working on that in around 01:08:47.829 --> 01:08:53.109 2005 and it came out in 2010. So in 2010, it's 01:08:53.109 --> 01:08:55.430 about to come out in theaters, this film. And 01:08:55.430 --> 01:08:56.729 there was a big article in The New York Times 01:08:56.729 --> 01:08:59.010 about how accurate it was and how much we had 01:08:59.010 --> 01:09:01.829 done to make sure that the details were right 01:09:01.829 --> 01:09:05.829 and so on. And the real Robert Durst reads the 01:09:05.829 --> 01:09:10.550 article and calls me out of the blue. And I had 01:09:10.550 --> 01:09:12.170 tried to get in touch with him before without 01:09:12.170 --> 01:09:16.159 any success. And he actually calls the distributor 01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:18.939 of the film first, Magnolia Pictures, and he 01:09:18.939 --> 01:09:26.159 asks for the president, Eamon Bowles. And Eamon 01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:30.279 and I would use Bob's voice like when we would 01:09:30.279 --> 01:09:33.119 talk to each other because Bob had a very recognizable 01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:36.039 voice. So when I would call him, we would hang 01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:39.340 up and I would say, bye -bye. And that was always 01:09:39.340 --> 01:09:41.970 sort of Bob's tone. And then one day somebody 01:09:41.970 --> 01:09:44.710 calls Eamon's office and says, this is Robert 01:09:44.710 --> 01:09:47.310 Durst. And so his secretary walks in the office 01:09:47.310 --> 01:09:49.149 and says, like, you know, in air quotes, like, 01:09:49.149 --> 01:09:51.090 it's Robert Durst on the phone thinking that 01:09:51.090 --> 01:09:53.189 it's me. And he picks up the phone. He's like, 01:09:53.289 --> 01:09:55.510 hey, Bob, I'm not surprised you're calling. I 01:09:55.510 --> 01:09:57.869 think we did a hell of a job on the film. And 01:09:57.869 --> 01:10:00.109 there's a long pause. And he says, the guy says, 01:10:00.350 --> 01:10:05.090 who am I talking to? And Eamon says, oh, who's 01:10:05.090 --> 01:10:07.970 this? And he says, this is Robert Durst. And 01:10:07.970 --> 01:10:11.300 so he reaches out to me. I knew that he was trying 01:10:11.300 --> 01:10:14.699 to reach me so I could record my very first phone 01:10:14.699 --> 01:10:17.500 call with him. And I call him and I say, listen, 01:10:17.600 --> 01:10:20.880 I'm keen to talk to you. I've been making this 01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:23.300 film about you for the last five years. And he 01:10:23.300 --> 01:10:25.640 said, well, I would like to see the film. So 01:10:25.640 --> 01:10:29.800 I arranged for him to see the film. And he calls 01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:32.279 me immediately after he sees the film. And he 01:10:32.279 --> 01:10:34.460 says, I want you to know I like the movie very 01:10:34.460 --> 01:10:38.729 much. The movie kind of shows him. killing people. 01:10:39.090 --> 01:10:41.609 Right. And I said, well, why did you like it? 01:10:41.670 --> 01:10:44.470 And he said, well, you know, you did a beautiful 01:10:44.470 --> 01:10:47.609 job explaining what I was going through as a 01:10:47.609 --> 01:10:50.770 child and the difficulty I had and losing my 01:10:50.770 --> 01:10:53.869 mother. And Kirsten Dunst was just like my my 01:10:53.869 --> 01:10:57.750 wife, Kathy. And I cried three times. And I would 01:10:57.750 --> 01:10:59.890 like to do something with you. You know, I would 01:10:59.890 --> 01:11:02.630 like there there to be something out there for 01:11:02.630 --> 01:11:06.409 me, my ability to sort of tell my story. And 01:11:06.409 --> 01:11:08.750 I said. All right, well, why don't we sit down? 01:11:08.789 --> 01:11:11.149 I'll ask you a bunch of questions. And he said, 01:11:11.229 --> 01:11:13.630 that's fine. Okay, let's do that. So I end up 01:11:13.630 --> 01:11:16.649 sitting with him for three days. I've just finished 01:11:16.649 --> 01:11:19.149 a movie about him, a dramatic film, which is 01:11:19.149 --> 01:11:22.350 now in theaters. And I sit down with him and 01:11:22.350 --> 01:11:26.630 interview him for 21 hours. And you think you 01:11:26.630 --> 01:11:29.270 do long interviews. He's 21 hours with this one 01:11:29.270 --> 01:11:33.890 person. And he is fascinating. I mean, absolutely 01:11:33.890 --> 01:11:37.569 extraordinary. He is incredibly honest about 01:11:37.569 --> 01:11:39.770 things that most people would never be honest 01:11:39.770 --> 01:11:43.029 about. Like? You know, he talks about how, you 01:11:43.029 --> 01:11:46.829 know, he had violent arguments with his wife 01:11:46.829 --> 01:11:50.489 or he says, you know, that he says crazy stuff. 01:11:50.630 --> 01:11:52.550 I mean, he explained to me that I said, you know, 01:11:52.569 --> 01:11:54.569 I think you were kind of offensive when you went 01:11:54.569 --> 01:11:57.909 to visit her mother. You know, she had this mother 01:11:57.909 --> 01:12:01.149 who was in her 80s and you went to visit her 01:12:01.149 --> 01:12:05.760 mother. And, you know, I think you did some odd 01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:07.779 things. He goes, well, yeah, you know, I visited 01:12:07.779 --> 01:12:10.239 those people and they were, you know, that woman, 01:12:10.279 --> 01:12:14.859 she reads Yankee magazine and, you know, and 01:12:14.859 --> 01:12:18.199 she asked me how I liked her daughter. And I 01:12:18.199 --> 01:12:21.359 told her that Kathy had come out of the shower 01:12:21.359 --> 01:12:25.539 and my penis was hard. Like you said that to 01:12:25.539 --> 01:12:28.500 her aging mother? Yeah, yeah, I mean, what am 01:12:28.500 --> 01:12:30.319 I going to, sure, that's what I thought, you 01:12:30.319 --> 01:12:34.369 know. You know, or you say to him, well, what 01:12:34.369 --> 01:12:38.130 did you say? You know, why did you tell the police 01:12:38.130 --> 01:12:42.430 that after your wife, after you put your wife 01:12:42.430 --> 01:12:44.489 on the train, you went to the neighbors to have 01:12:44.489 --> 01:12:46.869 a drink when that clearly wasn't true? Oh, yes, 01:12:46.949 --> 01:12:49.550 I lied about that. I said, well, why did you 01:12:49.550 --> 01:12:52.050 lie to the police? Well, I needed to be somewhere 01:12:52.050 --> 01:12:54.409 and I wanted them to stop asking me questions. 01:12:54.489 --> 01:12:56.909 So I told them that I went to the neighbors. 01:12:57.069 --> 01:12:58.930 I said, well, that was so easy to disprove. They 01:12:58.930 --> 01:13:00.710 just talked to the neighbor. Well, yeah, but 01:13:00.710 --> 01:13:05.029 people don't usually do that. So he's very candid. 01:13:05.390 --> 01:13:09.310 He speaks very, very openly, almost like having 01:13:09.310 --> 01:13:11.789 a level of sort of Asperger's. Did you believe 01:13:11.789 --> 01:13:14.750 him at any moment while he's telling you this? 01:13:14.829 --> 01:13:16.529 Because obviously he's proclaiming his innocence, 01:13:16.729 --> 01:13:23.699 right? Yeah. I mean he is so good at telling 01:13:23.699 --> 01:13:29.180 the story his way and he tells you so many facts 01:13:29.180 --> 01:13:32.300 that are true that when he occasionally lies 01:13:32.300 --> 01:13:35.960 about really critical things, I think a lot of 01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:38.060 people just didn't pay attention to that. I did 01:13:38.060 --> 01:13:40.340 because I had already researched the story. So 01:13:40.340 --> 01:13:43.560 I knew when he was trying to tell me something 01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:48.279 that was bullshit that it was bullshit. But, 01:13:48.380 --> 01:13:50.100 you know, I did have to put myself in a position 01:13:50.100 --> 01:13:53.319 of of giving him the benefit of the doubt whenever 01:13:53.319 --> 01:13:56.380 I could, partly because that was the only you 01:13:56.380 --> 01:13:58.239 know, you got to just get into that mode where 01:13:58.239 --> 01:14:02.460 you're trying to hear his version without debating 01:14:02.460 --> 01:14:05.840 it the whole time. Right. Because otherwise he's 01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:07.520 not going to tell you his version. And, you know, 01:14:07.520 --> 01:14:10.560 you want to hear his his theory about all this 01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:14.960 stuff. And and in the course of that. he really 01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:17.180 indicts himself. I mean, you know, he sort of 01:14:17.180 --> 01:14:19.079 came into it with the attitude that he wanted 01:14:19.079 --> 01:14:21.159 to tell his version of the story so people would 01:14:21.159 --> 01:14:24.619 stop thinking he was a murderer. But during the 01:14:24.619 --> 01:14:27.220 course of it, he admits to so many bad things 01:14:27.220 --> 01:14:31.380 that, you know, you just pretty quickly assume 01:14:31.380 --> 01:14:34.000 that he is guilty. How old is he when you first 01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:39.279 started filming him? I guess he was in his early... 01:14:40.059 --> 01:14:43.260 So he's probably already experiencing some kind 01:14:43.260 --> 01:14:46.760 of cognitive decline. And then you have the years 01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:49.960 and years of hiding all this, which wears on 01:14:49.960 --> 01:14:53.420 you. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think there was a I 01:14:53.420 --> 01:14:56.119 think he had a compulsion to confess. Yeah. You 01:14:56.119 --> 01:14:59.060 know, I think most people that aren't complete 01:14:59.060 --> 01:15:02.699 sociopaths, they get to a certain point in time 01:15:02.699 --> 01:15:05.000 where it's almost too much and they want to tell 01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:07.420 people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that ultimately 01:15:07.420 --> 01:15:10.670 what happened with him. as you may remember, 01:15:10.890 --> 01:15:17.529 is we find this evidence. The evidence I thought 01:15:17.529 --> 01:15:19.329 was determinative. I thought it was going to 01:15:19.329 --> 01:15:21.569 be something that police would ultimately use 01:15:21.569 --> 01:15:25.369 to convict him for murder. What was that evidence 01:15:25.369 --> 01:15:29.489 again? So there was a famous note that the killer 01:15:29.489 --> 01:15:32.609 of Susan Berman, this friend of Bob Durst in 01:15:32.609 --> 01:15:38.640 California, had left behind when he shot. Susan 01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:43.500 Berman. And the note said, 1527 Benedict Canyon, 01:15:43.859 --> 01:15:47.399 cadaver. And it was sent to the Beverly Hills 01:15:47.399 --> 01:15:50.850 Police Department. That very seldom happens, 01:15:51.010 --> 01:15:53.390 but people speculated a lot. Well, why would 01:15:53.390 --> 01:15:55.869 somebody who killed somebody have sent a note 01:15:55.869 --> 01:15:58.689 to the police? Well, maybe if he liked the person, 01:15:58.729 --> 01:16:01.029 if it was his best friend, this woman Susan Berman, 01:16:01.149 --> 01:16:03.329 and it was Bob Durst that did it, then maybe 01:16:03.329 --> 01:16:06.229 he wouldn't want her body to lie there and, you 01:16:06.229 --> 01:16:08.649 know, she has dogs. They didn't want the dogs 01:16:08.649 --> 01:16:11.449 to mess with the body. So he may have just killed 01:16:11.449 --> 01:16:13.890 her and then left this note. But then later when 01:16:13.890 --> 01:16:16.090 he was asked about it, he said, I have no knowledge 01:16:16.090 --> 01:16:19.550 about that note. So when we're doing our investigation, 01:16:19.810 --> 01:16:23.869 we discover a letter that he had written to Susan 01:16:23.869 --> 01:16:26.590 Berman that has almost the exact same words on 01:16:26.590 --> 01:16:29.789 it because it's addressed to her at 1527 Benedict 01:16:29.789 --> 01:16:33.130 Canyon. So we can see the handwriting on that, 01:16:33.229 --> 01:16:35.430 not just a handwriting sample, but a handwriting 01:16:35.430 --> 01:16:38.050 sample that's saying exactly what it said on 01:16:38.050 --> 01:16:40.949 the letter that— Right, with the same misspelled 01:16:40.949 --> 01:16:44.529 words, right? Exactly. And he writes— 1527 Benedict 01:16:44.529 --> 01:16:47.210 Canyon, Beverly Hills, California. He misspells 01:16:47.210 --> 01:16:50.210 the word Beverly, puts in an extra E at the end. 01:16:50.529 --> 01:16:54.510 And of course, this letter that we find, he also 01:16:54.510 --> 01:16:58.310 misspells the word Beverly. So nobody had ever 01:16:58.310 --> 01:17:01.489 seen or the police hadn't known about this letter. 01:17:01.609 --> 01:17:06.090 So we find it. And then I immediately start planning 01:17:06.090 --> 01:17:08.350 a way for me to show it to him in a second interview. 01:17:08.760 --> 01:17:10.640 And he had always said to me like, oh, if you 01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:12.500 ever need me to sit down again, I'm happy to 01:17:12.500 --> 01:17:14.739 come back and I'll ask – I'll answer any question 01:17:14.739 --> 01:17:18.399 you want. But I start to call him about doing 01:17:18.399 --> 01:17:20.340 the second interview and he gets very skittish. 01:17:20.680 --> 01:17:24.979 And then this goes on for two years. And so we 01:17:24.979 --> 01:17:27.539 have this evidence but we need to show it to 01:17:27.539 --> 01:17:30.640 him. And I had done a bunch of research. I talked 01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:33.939 to Marsha Clark, for example, who is smart about 01:17:33.939 --> 01:17:36.159 how the LA district attorney's office works. 01:17:36.579 --> 01:17:39.920 And she said – If you have the opportunity to 01:17:39.920 --> 01:17:41.319 sit down with him and show him the evidence, 01:17:41.460 --> 01:17:45.140 do that before you go to the police because it's 01:17:45.140 --> 01:17:47.020 going to be very – the police are not going to 01:17:47.020 --> 01:17:48.760 be able to do something like that and he's going 01:17:48.760 --> 01:17:51.119 to lawyer up. But you guys, before you're even 01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:53.359 in contact with law enforcement, you could show 01:17:53.359 --> 01:17:54.859 him the evidence and he's going to have to react 01:17:54.859 --> 01:17:57.260 to it. I bet it's going to be interesting. So 01:17:57.260 --> 01:17:59.220 we finally get him to sit for the second interview. 01:18:00.090 --> 01:18:02.149 And I show him the evidence in the interview. 01:18:02.310 --> 01:18:05.449 And he has this incredible meltdown. You know, 01:18:05.489 --> 01:18:06.890 I don't know if you remember this, but he starts 01:18:06.890 --> 01:18:10.189 burping uncontrollably and he starts rubbing 01:18:10.189 --> 01:18:14.510 his face and breathing. And he's obviously very, 01:18:14.770 --> 01:18:18.270 very surprised to see that there's this letter 01:18:18.270 --> 01:18:21.810 that matches the cadaver note that he admitted 01:18:21.810 --> 01:18:24.310 could only have been written by the killer. So 01:18:24.310 --> 01:18:29.000 he's sort of in a – he's trapped. I finished 01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:31.279 the interview with him and he gets up and goes 01:18:31.279 --> 01:18:34.520 to the bathroom and he leaves his microphone 01:18:34.520 --> 01:18:38.500 attached. And while he's in the bathroom, he 01:18:38.500 --> 01:18:41.060 confesses to the murder. He's a guy who talks 01:18:41.060 --> 01:18:43.340 to himself a lot. And he always said that to 01:18:43.340 --> 01:18:45.300 me. He said, oh, sometimes I talk to myself for 01:18:45.300 --> 01:18:47.300 long periods of time and I get in fights with 01:18:47.300 --> 01:18:49.340 people because they think that I'm hassling them, 01:18:49.460 --> 01:18:52.079 but it's just me. I just talk to myself. So when 01:18:52.079 --> 01:18:54.439 he goes in the bathroom, the first thing he says 01:18:54.439 --> 01:18:58.920 when he goes in is, There it is. You're caught. 01:19:00.020 --> 01:19:06.380 He says that to himself. And then he goes on 01:19:06.380 --> 01:19:08.939 to say, killed them all. I killed them all, of 01:19:08.939 --> 01:19:14.500 course. And it's such an extraordinary thing 01:19:14.500 --> 01:19:16.140 to have. Did you have your headphones on while 01:19:16.140 --> 01:19:19.319 he was doing that? No. And that's kind of fascinating. 01:19:19.479 --> 01:19:23.060 So I didn't know that he said anything when he 01:19:23.060 --> 01:19:26.409 went to the bathroom. And so we're working with 01:19:26.409 --> 01:19:29.289 the LAPD. We're giving them the printed evidence, 01:19:29.550 --> 01:19:32.510 the letter that matches the cadaver note. And 01:19:32.510 --> 01:19:36.229 it's a pretty strong case already. And we don't 01:19:36.229 --> 01:19:40.010 know that he's said a word in the bathroom. And 01:19:40.010 --> 01:19:46.350 it's not until 26 months later that we have an 01:19:46.350 --> 01:19:49.390 editor, Shelby Siegel, who is just going through 01:19:49.390 --> 01:19:53.350 audio. And kind of cleaning up old tracks because 01:19:53.350 --> 01:19:55.430 we're getting ready to deliver the film to HBO. 01:19:56.189 --> 01:20:01.550 And she sees on the editing system that there's 01:20:01.550 --> 01:20:03.470 a little waveform. There's a little squiggle 01:20:03.470 --> 01:20:06.350 that shows that there's some audio when he's 01:20:06.350 --> 01:20:09.989 in the bathroom. So the problem was that I had 01:20:09.989 --> 01:20:11.869 a microphone. There was a microphone in the room. 01:20:11.970 --> 01:20:14.170 And he had a microphone on. So there's a lot 01:20:14.170 --> 01:20:16.149 of noise. We're finishing. I just finished the 01:20:16.149 --> 01:20:19.270 interview. I'm incredibly excited that I got 01:20:19.270 --> 01:20:22.109 him to give this crazy reaction. And it's pretty 01:20:22.109 --> 01:20:25.409 obvious that that's going to be part of proving 01:20:25.409 --> 01:20:28.210 that he's guilty. And so I'm out there kind of 01:20:28.210 --> 01:20:30.710 whispering to the crew. There's noise in the 01:20:30.710 --> 01:20:32.770 room. And there's noise in the bathroom. And 01:20:32.770 --> 01:20:36.850 so she mutes the other microphones. And she hears 01:20:36.850 --> 01:20:40.029 him say, there it is, you're caught. And she 01:20:40.029 --> 01:20:43.289 screams. And she runs to the next room to where 01:20:43.289 --> 01:20:48.189 my other, our main editor was, Zach. And she 01:20:48.189 --> 01:20:50.869 says, you have to hear this. And he listens to 01:20:50.869 --> 01:20:52.949 it. And he says, wait a minute. I was there that 01:20:52.949 --> 01:20:56.130 day. And we have audio that's a continuation 01:20:56.130 --> 01:21:01.250 of that. That audio stops at there it is, you're 01:21:01.250 --> 01:21:03.449 caught. But he was in the bathroom for seven 01:21:03.449 --> 01:21:07.039 minutes. So they go and get the drive that has 01:21:07.039 --> 01:21:10.199 the other seven minutes of audio on it and it's 01:21:10.199 --> 01:21:14.859 this long rambling confession. And I come over 01:21:14.859 --> 01:21:18.460 and I listen to it and I can't believe what we're 01:21:18.460 --> 01:21:21.840 hearing. I mean it was extraordinary. And I had 01:21:21.840 --> 01:21:24.819 to call the LAPD and the LA district attorney 01:21:24.819 --> 01:21:28.479 and say, hey, I know literally two days ago we 01:21:28.479 --> 01:21:31.100 gave you the documents. We gave you the letter 01:21:31.100 --> 01:21:34.029 so that you could start this prosecution. We 01:21:34.029 --> 01:21:36.890 found something else. And so they come to New 01:21:36.890 --> 01:21:38.810 York and they listen to this confession. And 01:21:38.810 --> 01:21:41.689 it's just absolutely mind -blowing that that 01:21:41.689 --> 01:21:45.189 happened. And then when the series comes out, 01:21:46.090 --> 01:21:49.029 we've been working with the police then for a 01:21:49.029 --> 01:21:50.989 couple of years while they were building the 01:21:50.989 --> 01:21:53.170 prosecution. And when the film finally comes 01:21:53.170 --> 01:21:57.489 out, when the series comes out on HBO, he is 01:21:57.489 --> 01:22:01.289 arrested the day before the final episode. So 01:22:01.289 --> 01:22:03.170 it's in the final episode that he makes that 01:22:03.170 --> 01:22:06.449 confession and they arrest him right before because 01:22:06.449 --> 01:22:07.930 they knew that he was going to go on the run. 01:22:08.029 --> 01:22:10.510 Was he aware that you had the audio of the confession? 01:22:11.229 --> 01:22:13.409 I don't think he remembered saying anything. 01:22:13.909 --> 01:22:15.949 You know, I don't think he's even all that aware 01:22:15.949 --> 01:22:18.670 that he sometimes just burbles out with these. 01:22:19.090 --> 01:22:21.170 Do you think he started? I mean, this is pure 01:22:21.170 --> 01:22:23.109 speculation, but do you think he started going 01:22:23.109 --> 01:22:26.770 crazy after he started killing people? Just like 01:22:26.770 --> 01:22:31.039 the ability to. shut that part of your brain 01:22:31.039 --> 01:22:35.560 off and put that aside and lie about it? Just 01:22:35.560 --> 01:22:40.119 the struggle of having that information in your 01:22:40.119 --> 01:22:44.079 head. I think the way that he would have thought 01:22:44.079 --> 01:22:48.420 about it, you know, from inside the killer, right? 01:22:48.500 --> 01:22:50.840 He doesn't think of himself as a murderer, right? 01:22:50.960 --> 01:22:53.340 Steve Marshall in Alabama doesn't think of himself 01:22:53.340 --> 01:22:56.560 as, you know, this incredibly amoral person. 01:22:57.210 --> 01:22:59.170 He thinks of himself as law enforcement, right? 01:22:59.489 --> 01:23:02.649 Bob Durst thinks of himself as just a guy trying 01:23:02.649 --> 01:23:05.329 to get along, you know, like we all are. So I 01:23:05.329 --> 01:23:09.550 think what happened was in 1982, he and his wife 01:23:09.550 --> 01:23:13.470 were having problems in large part because he 01:23:13.470 --> 01:23:15.569 had big personality problems. I mean, he was 01:23:15.569 --> 01:23:19.930 not an easy person to deal with at all and was 01:23:19.930 --> 01:23:23.050 also very spoiled and had all these resources. 01:23:23.550 --> 01:23:25.609 Grew up wealthy. Yeah, and had a lot of power 01:23:25.609 --> 01:23:29.460 over her. And so I think something happened between 01:23:29.460 --> 01:23:31.319 the two of them where they were at their lake 01:23:31.319 --> 01:23:34.840 house and there was an altercation. He admitted 01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:37.359 to me that they had had a pushing and shoving 01:23:37.359 --> 01:23:41.199 argument that night. The night she died. Yeah. 01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:46.699 And then he says he took her to the train and 01:23:46.699 --> 01:23:48.960 sent her into the city. But none of that makes 01:23:48.960 --> 01:23:52.600 any sense. So I think what happened was he either 01:23:52.600 --> 01:23:55.800 accidentally or semi -accidentally killed her. 01:23:56.119 --> 01:23:58.300 I think they had a fight. They ended up getting 01:23:58.300 --> 01:24:01.079 into some altercation and she landed on the, 01:24:01.180 --> 01:24:04.100 you know, maybe on the stone of the fireplace 01:24:04.100 --> 01:24:07.420 or something like that. And she was dead. And 01:24:07.420 --> 01:24:11.060 then he thought, well, it doesn't make any sense 01:24:11.060 --> 01:24:13.600 for two people to go down. I mean, unfortunate 01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:16.220 that this had to happen, but I got to get rid 01:24:16.220 --> 01:24:19.739 of the body. And so he found a way to make her 01:24:19.739 --> 01:24:22.329 disappear. We don't know exactly what happened 01:24:22.329 --> 01:24:25.989 to her, but we know that he alleged that he had 01:24:25.989 --> 01:24:27.609 put her on the train to go in the city and they 01:24:27.609 --> 01:24:31.710 never found the body. So after that, he's sort 01:24:31.710 --> 01:24:35.960 of widely believed to be a likely. person to 01:24:35.960 --> 01:24:38.180 have killed his wife. There's no other explanation 01:24:38.180 --> 01:24:40.340 for it. And how long did it take before they 01:24:40.340 --> 01:24:42.380 realized the wife was missing? And when did they 01:24:42.380 --> 01:24:44.520 determine that she was dead? It was a few days 01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:48.920 later because he kept sort of, he held off on 01:24:48.920 --> 01:24:51.920 telling anyone. And then later he said, oh, Kathy, 01:24:52.279 --> 01:24:54.300 you know, I put her on the train to go in the 01:24:54.300 --> 01:24:56.760 city and then I haven't heard from her. What's 01:24:56.760 --> 01:25:00.880 going on? So he had a bunch of explanations about 01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:05.079 why. And somehow she had run off with a drug 01:25:05.079 --> 01:25:07.300 dealer or she had run off with some boyfriend 01:25:07.300 --> 01:25:09.539 or something like that. But none of those really 01:25:09.539 --> 01:25:12.739 held water. But it took him a while to report 01:25:12.739 --> 01:25:15.039 her missing. He waits five days to report her 01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:18.319 missing and does a brilliant thing, which is 01:25:18.319 --> 01:25:22.079 he reports her missing in New York City, even 01:25:22.079 --> 01:25:24.600 though the last time she's ever seen is in Westchester. 01:25:24.979 --> 01:25:26.880 So they were at their house, their lake house 01:25:26.880 --> 01:25:30.380 in Westchester. She disappears. And he goes into 01:25:30.380 --> 01:25:32.500 the city five days later and he says, oh, my 01:25:32.500 --> 01:25:35.239 wife was at our apartment. So he complete – this 01:25:35.239 --> 01:25:37.500 is why I'm saying he's very smart. He completely 01:25:37.500 --> 01:25:41.060 redirects the police so that they make – because 01:25:41.060 --> 01:25:45.439 the police aren't organized for a guy to come 01:25:45.439 --> 01:25:48.500 in and give a phony story about what happened 01:25:48.500 --> 01:25:50.020 to his wife. Most of the time somebody comes 01:25:50.020 --> 01:25:51.720 in and says, my wife is missing. And they say, 01:25:51.779 --> 01:25:53.939 oh, where did you last see her? Let's help you 01:25:53.939 --> 01:25:56.600 try to find her. So I think he was smart enough 01:25:56.600 --> 01:25:59.770 to flip that on his head. And he says that my 01:25:59.770 --> 01:26:01.789 wife was in the city. And so they do their whole 01:26:01.789 --> 01:26:03.949 investigation in the city. They don't look at 01:26:03.949 --> 01:26:06.350 the lake house. They don't figure out where she 01:26:06.350 --> 01:26:09.329 really truly might have been. Did they ever do 01:26:09.329 --> 01:26:11.989 an examination, like a forensic on the lake house? 01:26:12.149 --> 01:26:15.729 Yeah, they did. And they – it was sort of – because 01:26:15.729 --> 01:26:18.210 it was so late in the game, because it had taken 01:26:18.210 --> 01:26:22.850 so long for him to report her missing, they didn't 01:26:22.850 --> 01:26:24.970 find anything that showed that she had been killed 01:26:24.970 --> 01:26:28.770 in the – in the house. And she may very well 01:26:28.770 --> 01:26:30.710 have been killed somewhere else, but they never 01:26:30.710 --> 01:26:34.550 find the body ever. And so her family is bereft 01:26:34.550 --> 01:26:37.069 and they don't know what to do. Did he ever confess 01:26:37.069 --> 01:26:43.729 to that? He didn't. But during the course of 01:26:43.729 --> 01:26:46.270 his interview with me, I mean, he never did it 01:26:46.270 --> 01:26:50.130 publicly, but in the bathroom, he says, killed 01:26:50.130 --> 01:26:53.380 them all, of course. So he's being accused of 01:26:53.380 --> 01:26:55.699 three murders, his wife, his best friend, and 01:26:55.699 --> 01:26:57.859 his neighbor in Galveston, who he then cuts up. 01:26:58.920 --> 01:27:01.079 And his confession in the bathroom has killed 01:27:01.079 --> 01:27:05.539 them all, of course. So I think we know what 01:27:05.539 --> 01:27:07.539 happened. We don't know how it happened. Did 01:27:07.539 --> 01:27:10.119 they find his neighbor's body or his best friend's 01:27:10.119 --> 01:27:12.539 body? Yeah, his best friend's body was in her 01:27:12.539 --> 01:27:14.699 house where somebody shot her, and that's where 01:27:14.699 --> 01:27:17.380 they left that cadaver note, the note saying 01:27:17.380 --> 01:27:21.020 1527 Benedict Canyon. And then in Galveston, 01:27:21.449 --> 01:27:25.529 When his elderly neighbor disappears, the reason 01:27:25.529 --> 01:27:29.489 they find this out is because a bunch of black 01:27:29.489 --> 01:27:33.510 trash bags wash up in Galveston Bay. And a little 01:27:33.510 --> 01:27:36.090 kid is fishing with his dad and they see something 01:27:36.090 --> 01:27:38.329 bobbing around in the water and they see these 01:27:38.329 --> 01:27:40.789 bags. And the police come and they look in the 01:27:40.789 --> 01:27:43.250 bags and there are all these body parts. So he 01:27:43.250 --> 01:27:45.829 had actually taken off the legs and the arms 01:27:45.829 --> 01:27:49.579 and all that. So, I mean, I think. I think it's 01:27:49.579 --> 01:27:51.739 fair to say that there are people like Bob Durst 01:27:51.739 --> 01:27:56.720 who need to be out of society and are repeatedly 01:27:56.720 --> 01:28:01.100 causing problems for others. But that's, as you 01:28:01.100 --> 01:28:06.510 say, that's the extraordinarily rare case. And 01:28:06.510 --> 01:28:08.630 I think a lot of the sort of tough on crime politicians 01:28:08.630 --> 01:28:11.409 will say, so you guys just want to let Jeffrey 01:28:11.409 --> 01:28:14.130 Dahmer out on the street? Nobody thinks that. 01:28:14.229 --> 01:28:16.670 Nobody really believes that. People are saying, 01:28:16.729 --> 01:28:18.909 well, no. What we're saying is that people who 01:28:18.909 --> 01:28:22.170 are in prison for having entered an unoccupied 01:28:22.170 --> 01:28:24.810 building probably never should have been in prison 01:28:24.810 --> 01:28:27.310 at all. And the people who are in prison with 01:28:27.310 --> 01:28:29.949 good reason because they robbed somebody or something, 01:28:30.069 --> 01:28:32.409 we don't necessarily. have to believe that those 01:28:32.409 --> 01:28:35.250 people can never, ever have a chance to come 01:28:35.250 --> 01:28:38.010 out of prison and be productive citizens. You 01:28:38.010 --> 01:28:40.750 know, there's a there's a you just have to take 01:28:40.750 --> 01:28:42.689 a nuanced view. You know, you can't just say, 01:28:42.750 --> 01:28:44.130 well, they're bad people and they're good people, 01:28:44.229 --> 01:28:45.789 especially because they've got so many bad people 01:28:45.789 --> 01:28:47.409 walking around and so many good people locked 01:28:47.409 --> 01:28:50.750 up and vice versa. Yeah. The nuance part is so 01:28:50.750 --> 01:28:53.550 important because the real question is, like, 01:28:53.649 --> 01:28:57.869 what causes so many people to become bad people? 01:28:57.970 --> 01:29:00.170 And how come no one's examining the root of this? 01:29:00.699 --> 01:29:04.020 How come no one is looking at these deeply impoverished 01:29:04.020 --> 01:29:06.399 crime -ridden communities that have remained 01:29:06.399 --> 01:29:08.840 that way for decades and decades and decades 01:29:08.840 --> 01:29:12.220 and offered up some sort of a solution? It's 01:29:12.220 --> 01:29:14.960 almost like you have to financially incentivize 01:29:14.960 --> 01:29:19.100 a company to radically improve the economic and 01:29:19.100 --> 01:29:24.239 the justice situation in any random community 01:29:24.239 --> 01:29:27.159 that's experiencing a lot of crime. It's almost 01:29:27.159 --> 01:29:30.819 like you have to figure out a way. To privatize 01:29:30.819 --> 01:29:35.920 peace and safety. It's almost like the one way 01:29:35.920 --> 01:29:39.300 – I mean it's really what I was saying before. 01:29:39.439 --> 01:29:42.539 Like imagine if these prison companies got paid 01:29:42.539 --> 01:29:45.659 based on the amount of productive citizens emerge 01:29:45.659 --> 01:29:49.239 from their prisons and then wind up doing really 01:29:49.239 --> 01:29:52.520 well. Like you get incentivized like this is 01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:54.939 he's never committed another crime. Now he started 01:29:54.939 --> 01:29:56.899 his own business. He's doing this and that. He's 01:29:56.899 --> 01:29:59.279 got a family. His kids all get straight A's. 01:29:59.340 --> 01:30:02.260 Everybody's happy. This is a success. And we 01:30:02.260 --> 01:30:04.560 got a bonus because of that success. Yeah. I 01:30:04.560 --> 01:30:06.819 mean, you're right in a way that it's the root 01:30:06.819 --> 01:30:09.420 of some way we are. We sort of are privatizing 01:30:09.420 --> 01:30:12.060 it because like in my neighborhood in New York, 01:30:12.199 --> 01:30:15.779 there's a group called the Doe Fund, which has 01:30:15.779 --> 01:30:18.789 been around for. a couple decades, I think. And 01:30:18.789 --> 01:30:24.909 they take guys who have had severe drug addiction, 01:30:25.069 --> 01:30:29.710 have ended up in prison, and are released and 01:30:29.710 --> 01:30:32.789 have no starting place, as you were describing. 01:30:33.250 --> 01:30:37.590 And they give them a bed. They give them a bank 01:30:37.590 --> 01:30:39.729 account where they give them a certain amount 01:30:39.729 --> 01:30:42.779 of money each week for working. And it's not 01:30:42.779 --> 01:30:44.640 a huge amount of money, but it sort of is the 01:30:44.640 --> 01:30:46.779 first step toward even being able to sort of 01:30:46.779 --> 01:30:49.039 have a checkbook and be able to say, oh, OK, 01:30:49.140 --> 01:30:51.800 so I've got $100 and I've spent $50 and this 01:30:51.800 --> 01:30:54.800 is what I have left. And they give them a job, 01:30:54.819 --> 01:30:57.520 which is they make deals with neighborhoods around 01:30:57.520 --> 01:30:59.720 New York for them to come and do like street 01:30:59.720 --> 01:31:02.260 cleaning and clean up the neighborhood. And they 01:31:02.260 --> 01:31:04.560 give them a uniform, which is clean, and they 01:31:04.560 --> 01:31:12.899 put them out on the street with a broom and things 01:31:12.899 --> 01:31:15.039 like that. And sometimes they'll put them out 01:31:15.039 --> 01:31:20.140 in pairs so that they can work in tandem. And 01:31:20.140 --> 01:31:22.960 these neighborhoods become incredibly clean. 01:31:23.680 --> 01:31:27.079 The guys stay in this facility for as long as 01:31:27.079 --> 01:31:29.560 they need to until they sort of get back on their 01:31:29.560 --> 01:31:31.800 feet. They can't do drugs when they're in the 01:31:31.800 --> 01:31:34.739 facility. So there's a little bit of tough love 01:31:34.739 --> 01:31:38.960 going on there too. But they end up bringing 01:31:38.960 --> 01:31:41.340 people back. They end up bringing people back 01:31:41.340 --> 01:31:43.840 who were otherwise abandoned and who otherwise 01:31:43.840 --> 01:31:46.260 would have been additional homeless people lying 01:31:46.260 --> 01:31:48.020 on the street in San Francisco or additional 01:31:48.020 --> 01:31:51.500 people who are bothering people outside an ATM 01:31:51.500 --> 01:31:53.659 or whatever because there's a level of desperation 01:31:53.659 --> 01:31:57.920 that you have. We all know like if we absolutely 01:31:57.920 --> 01:32:01.279 had absolutely nothing and we thought that our 01:32:01.279 --> 01:32:03.420 kids were going to starve, we would do a bunch 01:32:03.420 --> 01:32:05.659 of things that would probably get us in trouble. 01:32:06.079 --> 01:32:10.979 100 percent. Taking care of people that are in 01:32:10.979 --> 01:32:15.000 that situation and providing them some sort of 01:32:15.000 --> 01:32:18.600 a vehicle for improving their life is going to 01:32:18.600 --> 01:32:20.880 be a good thing and it's going to have some impact. 01:32:21.239 --> 01:32:24.899 But the real impact is going to be when you address 01:32:24.899 --> 01:32:27.579 the environment in which they came from. Sure. 01:32:27.720 --> 01:32:30.819 Like, again, if we're our community, if this 01:32:30.819 --> 01:32:33.520 entire country is a community, why do we have 01:32:33.520 --> 01:32:37.029 these places? that have been fucked for 50, 60, 01:32:37.130 --> 01:32:39.670 70 years. Like, why haven't we put resources 01:32:39.670 --> 01:32:43.729 into community centers and education and providing 01:32:43.729 --> 01:32:47.529 some method for these people to get peace and 01:32:47.529 --> 01:32:49.750 safety? Why aren't we doing something about that 01:32:49.750 --> 01:32:53.109 if we really care? Well, there is a lot that 01:32:53.109 --> 01:32:56.010 can be done. You know, one of the places, for 01:32:56.010 --> 01:32:58.569 example, this can be done inside and outside 01:32:58.569 --> 01:33:01.289 of prison, obviously. And I think you're pointing 01:33:01.289 --> 01:33:03.979 out a really important thing, which is... The 01:33:03.979 --> 01:33:06.939 earlier, the better. So when you look at head 01:33:06.939 --> 01:33:09.479 start programs, which are one of the first things 01:33:09.479 --> 01:33:11.539 that people go to cut because you can't put your 01:33:11.539 --> 01:33:14.380 finger on exactly what they do. But if you track 01:33:14.380 --> 01:33:18.319 people that got early education, you see that 01:33:18.319 --> 01:33:21.680 it dramatically reduces the likelihood that those 01:33:21.680 --> 01:33:23.760 people are going to go to prison later in life. 01:33:24.739 --> 01:33:28.600 And if you look at people who are even in prison, 01:33:28.720 --> 01:33:31.439 like in the main state prison system, which is 01:33:31.439 --> 01:33:35.229 a very humane. prison system, I have pictures 01:33:35.229 --> 01:33:39.550 on my phone of guys who are sitting at a bench 01:33:39.550 --> 01:33:44.289 working on models of tall ships, these beautiful, 01:33:44.449 --> 01:33:47.970 stunning pieces of art that they've been trained 01:33:47.970 --> 01:33:50.810 by other prisoners to build and they give them 01:33:50.810 --> 01:33:54.409 a proper workbench and they give them some time 01:33:54.409 --> 01:33:56.149 to do this work and they give them training. 01:33:56.970 --> 01:33:59.470 And then they sell that stuff in the prison store 01:33:59.470 --> 01:34:01.390 and they make a couple million dollars a year 01:34:01.390 --> 01:34:03.989 that goes back into rehabilitation programs. 01:34:04.310 --> 01:34:07.789 Oh, wow. Is Maine one of the best places for 01:34:07.789 --> 01:34:09.930 that? I think Maine is the best prison system 01:34:09.930 --> 01:34:13.170 I've seen in the U .S. And partly it's because 01:34:13.170 --> 01:34:15.890 it's run by this very brilliant guy. Randy Liberty 01:34:15.890 --> 01:34:19.989 is his name. That's crazy. And he first visited 01:34:19.989 --> 01:34:24.109 the Maine State Prison when he was 14 because 01:34:24.109 --> 01:34:27.520 his dad was locked up there. And later in life, 01:34:27.579 --> 01:34:29.380 you know, he became a sheriff. And I think his 01:34:29.380 --> 01:34:31.460 dad was in his jail at some point. And it was 01:34:31.460 --> 01:34:34.340 like, Randy, get me a coffee. Sorry, Dad. That's 01:34:34.340 --> 01:34:36.979 crazy. But over time, he just said, well, why 01:34:36.979 --> 01:34:38.760 are we throwing people away when we put them 01:34:38.760 --> 01:34:41.300 into prison for having made a mistake of some 01:34:41.300 --> 01:34:43.779 kind or even a series of mistakes? Yeah. You 01:34:43.779 --> 01:34:45.960 know, what can we do to bring these people out? 01:34:46.039 --> 01:34:49.319 Because 95 % of the people are coming out. And, 01:34:49.579 --> 01:34:51.520 you know, are these people that we want to be 01:34:51.520 --> 01:34:55.779 our neighbors, you know? And this issue of community 01:34:55.779 --> 01:34:59.319 is so important because, you know, how are we 01:34:59.319 --> 01:35:01.079 going to get back to some kind of brotherhood 01:35:01.079 --> 01:35:03.979 in this country? You know, it's so important. 01:35:04.100 --> 01:35:06.699 And if we can demonize people so quickly and 01:35:06.699 --> 01:35:08.899 just say, well, look, my neighbor. You know, 01:35:08.939 --> 01:35:11.460 he put his tractor on my lawn and therefore he's 01:35:11.460 --> 01:35:13.159 a horrible person and I'm going to go over and 01:35:13.159 --> 01:35:15.399 smash his tractor. You know, as opposed to the 01:35:15.399 --> 01:35:16.899 guy saying, oh, I couldn't put my tractor in 01:35:16.899 --> 01:35:18.500 my garage because it had a flood. Oh, you had 01:35:18.500 --> 01:35:21.640 a flood? Let me help you. You know, that there's 01:35:21.640 --> 01:35:25.020 a level of, you know, rage right now that we're 01:35:25.020 --> 01:35:27.819 tapping into. It seems like a higher percentage 01:35:27.819 --> 01:35:29.779 of the people are like the martial arts people 01:35:29.779 --> 01:35:33.460 that are going into it because of damage that 01:35:33.460 --> 01:35:35.539 they suffered. It's like more Americans are becoming 01:35:35.539 --> 01:35:37.739 like that. You know, more Americans are sort 01:35:37.739 --> 01:35:39.899 of. Well, we're getting radicalized by the Internet 01:35:39.899 --> 01:35:43.199 for sure. Yeah. One hundred percent on both sides 01:35:43.199 --> 01:35:45.880 of the aisle. People are being radicalized by 01:35:45.880 --> 01:35:49.840 hate and anger and frustration online. And a 01:35:49.840 --> 01:35:52.199 lot of it isn't even real people that are writing 01:35:52.199 --> 01:35:55.159 these things or it's state actors and organizations 01:35:55.159 --> 01:35:58.720 that push certain narratives. And you're being 01:35:58.720 --> 01:36:04.060 fed a lot of hate porn. And people are sucking 01:36:04.060 --> 01:36:07.460 it up and it's highly addictive. So it's consuming 01:36:07.460 --> 01:36:11.340 an enormous percentage of your available resources 01:36:11.340 --> 01:36:14.979 in terms of your attention span. The people that 01:36:14.979 --> 01:36:17.979 I know that are addicted to Twitter, X, whatever, 01:36:18.159 --> 01:36:21.479 are like genuinely mentally ill. Like whether 01:36:21.479 --> 01:36:23.500 they realize it or not because they're still 01:36:23.500 --> 01:36:26.020 functional, they still do their jobs, but they 01:36:26.020 --> 01:36:30.970 are. Fully addicted to a thing that is just people 01:36:30.970 --> 01:36:33.670 bitching back and forth with each other. And 01:36:33.670 --> 01:36:35.989 they check responses all the time. They can't 01:36:35.989 --> 01:36:37.350 wait to type in another response. And they're 01:36:37.350 --> 01:36:38.970 sitting there looking at someone else's response 01:36:38.970 --> 01:36:42.609 and getting angry. It's illness. It's an illness. 01:36:42.850 --> 01:36:45.250 It's like this is not in your life. Like if you 01:36:45.250 --> 01:36:48.130 put that down and look around, what do you see? 01:36:48.210 --> 01:36:50.090 You see the people that you know. You see the 01:36:50.090 --> 01:36:52.569 neighborhood that you live in. The stores that 01:36:52.569 --> 01:36:55.789 you visit. And none of that exists. It exists. 01:36:56.569 --> 01:36:59.989 in this weird fucking cloud world that you choose 01:36:59.989 --> 01:37:03.090 to enter to get upset for no fucking reason. 01:37:03.670 --> 01:37:06.550 And if you put it down, you will feel better. 01:37:07.289 --> 01:37:09.010 But yet you think you're missing out on something. 01:37:09.149 --> 01:37:10.909 So you have to go check it. And when you're on 01:37:10.909 --> 01:37:12.689 the toilet, well, I'm on the toilet. What am 01:37:12.689 --> 01:37:14.670 I going to do? Let me check to see what people 01:37:14.670 --> 01:37:17.010 are pissed off at. And I don't fucking agree 01:37:17.010 --> 01:37:19.670 with that at all. This guy's an idiot. And then 01:37:19.670 --> 01:37:23.489 you're mentally ill. And then it becomes, because 01:37:23.489 --> 01:37:26.619 we have this bizarre... political system in our 01:37:26.619 --> 01:37:29.899 country we have two sides only two we only have 01:37:29.899 --> 01:37:32.340 two perspectives you know and then you have a 01:37:32.340 --> 01:37:35.159 conglomeration of ideas that are attached to 01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:37.979 each perspective that you might not agree with 01:37:37.979 --> 01:37:40.819 at all but you have to because you're a right 01:37:40.819 --> 01:37:43.260 wing this or a left wing that so you have to 01:37:43.260 --> 01:37:45.779 say whatever the fucking party wants you to say 01:37:45.779 --> 01:37:48.640 and if you don't you're a nazi or if you don't 01:37:48.640 --> 01:37:50.819 you're whatever you are a communist whatever 01:37:50.819 --> 01:37:54.760 it is and I loved your – in your comedy special, 01:37:54.920 --> 01:37:57.920 which was so fucking funny. And, you know, I'm 01:37:57.920 --> 01:38:00.520 like a big fan of comedy. But in your last special, 01:38:00.680 --> 01:38:03.399 you sort of talk about how people like sign up 01:38:03.399 --> 01:38:05.020 for, oh, yeah, well, you know, I agree with that. 01:38:05.100 --> 01:38:06.720 That makes perfect sense. Oh, yeah, I agree with 01:38:06.720 --> 01:38:07.819 that. Oh, and by the way, if you're going to 01:38:07.819 --> 01:38:09.039 agree with that, you know, you're also going 01:38:09.039 --> 01:38:12.159 to have to agree that, you know, that – Men can 01:38:12.159 --> 01:38:14.079 get pregnant. Yeah, the men can get pregnant. 01:38:14.100 --> 01:38:17.189 You're like – What? Wait. So that those are my 01:38:17.189 --> 01:38:20.170 choices. I have to go along with like, you know, 01:38:20.189 --> 01:38:22.329 trans people should be allowed to be in every 01:38:22.329 --> 01:38:25.470 sport and it doesn't matter. I have to go along 01:38:25.470 --> 01:38:27.529 with that one, too, if I want to be part of my 01:38:27.529 --> 01:38:30.109 tribe. Oh, yeah. That's part of the tribal initiation 01:38:30.109 --> 01:38:31.930 ritual. You're going to have to sign up for that. 01:38:32.729 --> 01:38:34.649 I think it's a really great way of delivering 01:38:34.649 --> 01:38:37.050 it also because it makes people laugh at themselves. 01:38:37.350 --> 01:38:39.210 Yeah, and everybody wants to be on a team. Yeah. 01:38:39.329 --> 01:38:41.510 And you're like, you know, oh, we believe that 01:38:41.510 --> 01:38:43.789 everybody should, you know, be free to do whatever 01:38:43.789 --> 01:38:45.529 you want. And as long as you're not hurting anybody, 01:38:45.689 --> 01:38:48.069 I agree, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You start 01:38:48.069 --> 01:38:50.569 going along with it. This sounds great. Yeah. 01:38:50.649 --> 01:38:52.510 Hey, I'm with you guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 01:38:52.510 --> 01:38:55.689 then you're like, oh, fuck. That's right. Is 01:38:55.689 --> 01:38:58.739 this a package deal? I have to. Yeah, and that's 01:38:58.739 --> 01:39:00.260 what people are agreeing to, and then you get 01:39:00.260 --> 01:39:02.979 groupthink, and then you get also ostracized 01:39:02.979 --> 01:39:06.520 from the community if you don't do it. So you 01:39:06.520 --> 01:39:09.880 get kicked out of the kingdom. You don't want 01:39:09.880 --> 01:39:13.560 that. Being excommunicated from whatever group 01:39:13.560 --> 01:39:15.560 that you identify with is terrifying because 01:39:15.560 --> 01:39:16.779 then what are you going to do? Are you going 01:39:16.779 --> 01:39:19.380 to join the fucking Nazis? I'm going to join 01:39:19.380 --> 01:39:21.979 those people on the right because the left kicked 01:39:21.979 --> 01:39:23.920 me out because I don't think that men can get 01:39:23.920 --> 01:39:27.720 pregnant? Maybe I should just apologize. And 01:39:27.720 --> 01:39:29.640 then you wind up apologizing for something you 01:39:29.640 --> 01:39:31.479 don't even believe in. You're like, God, I can't 01:39:31.479 --> 01:39:35.840 believe I have to say this. And it's just a bad 01:39:35.840 --> 01:39:39.420 way of communicating. Online communication is 01:39:39.420 --> 01:39:43.220 a terrible way of communicating. And it's the 01:39:43.220 --> 01:39:44.779 primary source that young people experience. 01:39:45.380 --> 01:39:48.659 Young people, like my kids, they don't even fucking 01:39:48.659 --> 01:39:52.180 text each other. They Snapchat. You know, they're 01:39:52.180 --> 01:39:54.319 all Snapchatting with pictures and shit. I'm 01:39:54.319 --> 01:39:56.439 like, this is like the minimal amount of communication 01:39:56.439 --> 01:40:01.500 you can do. And when they have to talk to people, 01:40:01.579 --> 01:40:03.359 just put their phone down and talk to people, 01:40:03.420 --> 01:40:05.460 they're lost. They're always like reaching for 01:40:05.460 --> 01:40:06.979 their phone. Oh, yeah. They always want to grab 01:40:06.979 --> 01:40:08.399 their phone in the middle of you talking. Yeah, 01:40:08.399 --> 01:40:10.220 yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have to check. 01:40:10.300 --> 01:40:12.300 Like, it's like you're. perpetually distracted. 01:40:12.640 --> 01:40:14.539 Yeah. Yeah. It's going to get worse, I think, 01:40:14.539 --> 01:40:17.039 when you have glasses and you could be walking 01:40:17.039 --> 01:40:18.659 down the street or you can meet somebody and 01:40:18.659 --> 01:40:21.600 be like, hi, Joe. So when you went to college 01:40:21.600 --> 01:40:24.560 at and then you learned, you know, it's like 01:40:24.560 --> 01:40:26.939 they're there. This idea that the information 01:40:26.939 --> 01:40:29.079 is more available and therefore it's better. 01:40:29.319 --> 01:40:33.539 My kids are like constantly deleting Instagram 01:40:33.539 --> 01:40:36.810 or deleting TikTok. Yeah, a lot of kids are doing 01:40:36.810 --> 01:40:38.850 that now. Yeah. But, you know, and then it comes 01:40:38.850 --> 01:40:40.829 back for some reason or they'll say, well, I 01:40:40.829 --> 01:40:43.250 felt like I needed to do this or whatever. FOMO. 01:40:43.869 --> 01:40:46.949 But it's very encouraging to see them recognize 01:40:46.949 --> 01:40:49.930 that, like, you have to go cold turkey on social 01:40:49.930 --> 01:40:52.930 media. That narrative is out there. Fortunately 01:40:52.930 --> 01:40:56.189 for a lot of kids, Twitter, which I think is 01:40:56.189 --> 01:40:58.649 maybe the most toxic in terms of what it can 01:40:58.649 --> 01:41:02.489 do, most beneficial in terms of like whistleblowers 01:41:02.489 --> 01:41:04.390 getting news. Like if anything is happening in 01:41:04.390 --> 01:41:05.909 the world, I almost immediately go to Twitter. 01:41:06.989 --> 01:41:10.289 It used to be a little better for that because 01:41:10.289 --> 01:41:14.449 now part of the problem is with AI -generated 01:41:14.449 --> 01:41:17.510 content. There's a lot of weird stuff when it 01:41:17.510 --> 01:41:20.329 comes to, like, especially war stuff. There's 01:41:20.329 --> 01:41:21.909 a lot of videos that are just completely fake, 01:41:22.010 --> 01:41:24.710 and it's hard to tell. Or they take a video that 01:41:24.710 --> 01:41:28.470 is real and highly exaggerated, and they add 01:41:28.470 --> 01:41:31.689 AI to it. It's very strange. And you've got to 01:41:31.689 --> 01:41:33.609 wonder, like, who's doing that and why are they 01:41:33.609 --> 01:41:36.350 doing this? Is this our government doing it? 01:41:36.359 --> 01:41:38.720 it? Is it the Iranian government? Who's releasing 01:41:38.720 --> 01:41:41.840 these fake videos? And are we doing it to ourselves, 01:41:41.939 --> 01:41:44.399 by the way? 100%. A lot of people are doing that 01:41:44.399 --> 01:41:48.060 just for clicks because there is an actual economy 01:41:48.060 --> 01:41:51.380 based on engagement. So you can make money if 01:41:51.380 --> 01:41:53.670 you're... If you're putting up these posts and 01:41:53.670 --> 01:41:54.909 these posts are getting millions and millions 01:41:54.909 --> 01:41:56.829 of interactions, you're going to get more money. 01:41:56.989 --> 01:41:58.770 And so there's a lot of people doing that. So 01:41:58.770 --> 01:42:01.510 it used to be better because it used to be just 01:42:01.510 --> 01:42:04.630 pure information. And if it was a video, it was 01:42:04.630 --> 01:42:05.989 just a video that someone took with their cell 01:42:05.989 --> 01:42:09.229 phone generally. Now it's like a lot of weirdo 01:42:09.229 --> 01:42:12.189 stuff, a lot of weird fake stuff. So it's hard. 01:42:12.390 --> 01:42:14.630 Also there was a piece in the paper today that 01:42:14.630 --> 01:42:18.590 talked about how like Trump gets a – like a few 01:42:18.590 --> 01:42:21.390 minute video every day that's a compilation of 01:42:21.390 --> 01:42:24.109 all the attacks and all the explosions that have 01:42:24.109 --> 01:42:27.930 happened in Iran, you know, but is not getting 01:42:27.930 --> 01:42:30.430 a more nuanced picture of it. So to some extent 01:42:30.430 --> 01:42:33.170 is kind of, you know, drinking his own Kool -Aid. 01:42:33.250 --> 01:42:36.630 How do they know what he gets? I think that there 01:42:36.630 --> 01:42:39.350 was enough of a leak to say that he was given 01:42:39.350 --> 01:42:42.010 a, that each day he's given a chunk of video 01:42:42.010 --> 01:42:44.229 to watch. And that I think historically has been 01:42:44.229 --> 01:42:46.670 something that happens with him is he'd rather 01:42:46.670 --> 01:42:49.689 watch it than read it. Right. And that that by 01:42:49.689 --> 01:42:52.029 putting together just it's not even that they're 01:42:52.029 --> 01:42:53.710 saying they're fake videos. I mean, obviously, 01:42:53.770 --> 01:42:55.210 there are a lot of fake videos, but he's only 01:42:55.210 --> 01:42:57.130 getting the positive videos. He's just getting 01:42:57.130 --> 01:42:59.229 explosions. Right. He's just getting a lot of 01:42:59.229 --> 01:43:01.109 pictures of explosions. So he's saying, you know, 01:43:01.130 --> 01:43:04.449 we're destroying their. Here it is inside Trump's 01:43:04.449 --> 01:43:08.170 daily video montage briefing on the Iran war. 01:43:08.430 --> 01:43:10.770 This is NBC News. The montage typically runs 01:43:10.770 --> 01:43:13.739 for about two minutes. That's enough time. Just 01:43:13.739 --> 01:43:15.319 to give you a nuanced perspective on a fucking 01:43:15.319 --> 01:43:18.119 international war. Has raised concerns amongst 01:43:18.119 --> 01:43:20.960 those of the president's allies that he may not 01:43:20.960 --> 01:43:23.560 be receiving the complete picture of the war. 01:43:24.800 --> 01:43:27.880 Yeah. Yeah, of course he's not. Yeah. And of 01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:29.380 course the people that tricked him into doing 01:43:29.380 --> 01:43:31.819 this in the first place don't want him to get 01:43:31.819 --> 01:43:36.359 a full nuanced perspective of the war. I mean, 01:43:36.380 --> 01:43:38.880 nobody thinks it's a good idea. Yeah. The Bailey 01:43:38.880 --> 01:43:41.119 video is a series of clips of stuff blowing up. 01:43:41.479 --> 01:43:43.159 Hilarious. That's the world we're living in. 01:43:43.239 --> 01:43:45.939 It's a TikTok president. I mean, or a TikTok 01:43:45.939 --> 01:43:49.239 briefing for the president. You know, but video, 01:43:49.300 --> 01:43:51.819 I mean, what we saw in Alabama, and I know you 01:43:51.819 --> 01:43:55.060 have some clips of this, and I think if you feel 01:43:55.060 --> 01:44:01.760 like running one, there's the level of depravity 01:44:01.760 --> 01:44:04.399 that's going on in our prison system is so much 01:44:04.399 --> 01:44:06.939 higher. than the average person thinks it is. 01:44:07.020 --> 01:44:08.840 And one of the reasons why we've seen so much 01:44:08.840 --> 01:44:11.340 outrage from people, finally millions of people 01:44:11.340 --> 01:44:13.119 have seen the Alabama Solution because people 01:44:13.119 --> 01:44:15.119 have HBO or they have watched it in a theater. 01:44:15.600 --> 01:44:17.520 And it's the first time they've been able to 01:44:17.520 --> 01:44:19.500 see inside. It's the first time they've been 01:44:19.500 --> 01:44:21.659 able to really see it as opposed to reading a 01:44:21.659 --> 01:44:23.859 statistic about a lot of people die in prison 01:44:23.859 --> 01:44:27.420 or whatever. And I think it does tap into our 01:44:27.420 --> 01:44:30.020 sense of humanity and it taps into our sense 01:44:30.020 --> 01:44:32.930 of community and the feeling that... Like, I 01:44:32.930 --> 01:44:34.909 don't want to be a part of that. I don't want 01:44:34.909 --> 01:44:37.390 to be part of doing that to other people. You 01:44:37.390 --> 01:44:39.489 know, I could be tough on crime. You know, we've 01:44:39.489 --> 01:44:42.510 shown the film to a lot of conservative viewers, 01:44:42.949 --> 01:44:46.270 including one of the founders of CPAC and various 01:44:46.270 --> 01:44:48.710 people who are, you know, pretty, pretty right 01:44:48.710 --> 01:44:51.829 wing people and have said, look, I might be tough 01:44:51.829 --> 01:44:54.250 on crime. That's not what I'm talking about. 01:44:54.369 --> 01:44:57.770 Right. That's that's a human rights crisis. And 01:44:57.770 --> 01:45:00.819 where's the DOJ and where's the government? doing 01:45:00.819 --> 01:45:02.680 anything to protect where are the inspectors 01:45:02.680 --> 01:45:06.020 yeah how are they allowing any of that yeah you 01:45:06.020 --> 01:45:08.760 know and that's the the one of the great things 01:45:08.760 --> 01:45:12.479 about your documentary is it's clear i mean it 01:45:12.479 --> 01:45:16.000 is there's no ambiguity at all it's like laid 01:45:16.000 --> 01:45:19.760 out there Full color. You could see the blood 01:45:19.760 --> 01:45:22.960 on the ground. You could see, I mean, it's horrific. 01:45:23.399 --> 01:45:25.859 When kinetic justice, when that guy's beaten 01:45:25.859 --> 01:45:28.300 in his cell, and you see how they dragged him 01:45:28.300 --> 01:45:32.460 out, his face down, bleeding all over. They thought 01:45:32.460 --> 01:45:36.060 he was dead, and he managed to live. And he's 01:45:36.060 --> 01:45:38.600 being dragged out, and you're following the blood 01:45:38.600 --> 01:45:43.600 trail from his cell with the contraband cameras 01:45:43.600 --> 01:45:46.739 from the cell phones. And had those cell phone 01:45:46.739 --> 01:45:50.300 cameras not existed, you'd have zero idea. Like 01:45:50.300 --> 01:45:54.159 if those guards only decided to sell money bringing 01:45:54.159 --> 01:45:58.340 drugs in and not phones with cameras, who knows 01:45:58.340 --> 01:46:00.939 what you would know. You would know very little. 01:46:01.560 --> 01:46:05.039 Yeah. Yeah. And it does. I mean, you know, I 01:46:05.039 --> 01:46:06.760 would like to believe that the average American 01:46:06.760 --> 01:46:10.220 does not want to harm the average other American, 01:46:10.359 --> 01:46:12.840 you know. And even if you get hyped up on Twitter 01:46:12.840 --> 01:46:16.380 or you get to see. you know, too many videos 01:46:16.380 --> 01:46:19.359 of people blowing up stuff or whatever, that 01:46:19.359 --> 01:46:21.300 ultimately people have that experience of saying, 01:46:21.420 --> 01:46:24.560 you know, I went to that, like, coffee at the 01:46:24.560 --> 01:46:27.640 church and I sat there with that guy who I really 01:46:27.640 --> 01:46:30.199 can't stand. And, you know, we ended up having 01:46:30.199 --> 01:46:33.220 a conversation. You know, people are kind of 01:46:33.220 --> 01:46:37.619 amazed at how much commonality they can feel 01:46:37.619 --> 01:46:39.779 with people where if they just see the person. 01:46:39.899 --> 01:46:41.420 I mean, we all know, like, if you text somebody. 01:46:43.149 --> 01:46:46.550 your kids or your wife or whatever, there's just 01:46:46.550 --> 01:46:50.250 some places where texts are not good. It's not 01:46:50.250 --> 01:46:52.729 enough. It's not enough. It's going to make somebody's 01:46:52.729 --> 01:46:55.850 feelings hurt, you know. But when you get to 01:46:55.850 --> 01:46:58.970 sit down across from somebody, you realize that 01:46:58.970 --> 01:47:01.489 it's another person you can kind of relate to. 01:47:01.949 --> 01:47:05.989 So it's really disturbing that whether it's social 01:47:05.989 --> 01:47:09.409 media or just the demonization of people, the 01:47:09.409 --> 01:47:11.880 way that we just... turn people into these one 01:47:11.880 --> 01:47:14.159 -dimensional figures, and then we could just 01:47:14.159 --> 01:47:17.159 rage at them and just hate them. And distract 01:47:17.159 --> 01:47:19.680 yourself from your own problems. That's a big 01:47:19.680 --> 01:47:22.060 part of it. People love something that takes 01:47:22.060 --> 01:47:24.460 the focus away from whatever shortcomings they 01:47:24.460 --> 01:47:26.479 have or whatever things in their life they don't 01:47:26.479 --> 01:47:29.100 like. They'll focus on external things. I know 01:47:29.100 --> 01:47:31.739 some people whose lives are completely fucked 01:47:31.739 --> 01:47:34.420 up in so many ways. Their health is fucked up. 01:47:34.439 --> 01:47:36.279 Their relationships are fucked up. Their job 01:47:36.279 --> 01:47:38.220 is fucked up. And all they want to talk about 01:47:38.220 --> 01:47:41.710 is politics. Like, hey, man. Clean up your backyard. 01:47:42.130 --> 01:47:44.550 Like, clean up your life. Like, why are you spending 01:47:44.550 --> 01:47:47.569 so much time paying attention to what's going 01:47:47.569 --> 01:47:49.529 on with USAID? Like, how much does that affect 01:47:49.529 --> 01:47:52.069 you? Does it? Does it really affect you that 01:47:52.069 --> 01:47:55.109 much? All this fucking fraud. Right. But what 01:47:55.109 --> 01:47:57.770 about your life, man? Your life is a fucking 01:47:57.770 --> 01:48:01.470 disaster. And all you care about is the government. 01:48:02.369 --> 01:48:04.350 You know? And what they're doing to fuck the 01:48:04.350 --> 01:48:06.449 people over. Like, I don't think that's really 01:48:06.449 --> 01:48:09.270 the problem. I think you're getting in your own 01:48:09.270 --> 01:48:11.970 way, son. And that's a lot of people out there 01:48:11.970 --> 01:48:14.930 in this world. And anything that you do to distract 01:48:14.930 --> 01:48:17.689 yourself, whether it's start drinking, gamble, 01:48:17.949 --> 01:48:21.310 get on pills, whatever it is, people find ways 01:48:21.310 --> 01:48:24.470 to distract themselves from whatever is wrong 01:48:24.470 --> 01:48:27.289 with their life. And that's part of what social 01:48:27.289 --> 01:48:30.010 media is providing you. It's providing this alternative 01:48:30.010 --> 01:48:33.670 avenue for your attention to divert you from 01:48:33.670 --> 01:48:36.010 all the things that really are making your life 01:48:36.010 --> 01:48:39.000 a fucking disaster. Yeah. There's also that I 01:48:39.000 --> 01:48:41.659 think sort of nuance falls into that also because 01:48:41.659 --> 01:48:46.739 people are made calm by the idea that they can 01:48:46.739 --> 01:48:49.779 just identify problems and that they're simple. 01:48:49.899 --> 01:48:53.079 Right. So if you say to somebody, hey, like locking 01:48:53.079 --> 01:48:55.100 people up for 75 years probably doesn't make 01:48:55.100 --> 01:48:58.380 a lot of sense. That's complicated. Wait, now 01:48:58.380 --> 01:49:00.659 I got to make a determination of what's the right 01:49:00.659 --> 01:49:04.140 thing to do with another person. And, you know, 01:49:04.140 --> 01:49:06.479 so you end up with a lot of politicians who say, 01:49:06.619 --> 01:49:09.350 well, I know. This is these the bad people. These 01:49:09.350 --> 01:49:11.029 are the good people. We got to promote the good 01:49:11.029 --> 01:49:13.770 people and get rid of the bad people. Not recognizing 01:49:13.770 --> 01:49:16.369 that like everybody is a little of both and that 01:49:16.369 --> 01:49:18.529 some people certainly do a lot more bad stuff 01:49:18.529 --> 01:49:20.590 in the world than good stuff and vice versa. 01:49:20.970 --> 01:49:23.890 But you have to see yourself, you know, as you're 01:49:23.890 --> 01:49:26.689 describing, like you have to recognize what's 01:49:26.689 --> 01:49:29.529 happening in your backyard in order for the community 01:49:29.529 --> 01:49:31.970 to work. You can't say, well, look, I'm always 01:49:31.970 --> 01:49:34.739 right. My neighbor's always wrong. And therefore, 01:49:34.859 --> 01:49:37.640 I'm just going to keep raging over this. You 01:49:37.640 --> 01:49:40.180 have to say like, you know, I could see myself 01:49:40.180 --> 01:49:43.220 doing something. I could see myself. Boy, if 01:49:43.220 --> 01:49:45.399 I really got out of hand, I could see myself 01:49:45.399 --> 01:49:48.500 having a, you know, taking a swing at somebody. 01:49:48.640 --> 01:49:51.300 And that's probably not a good thing. But I don't 01:49:51.300 --> 01:49:53.779 want to say that somebody else that did it is 01:49:53.779 --> 01:49:57.199 automatically just a horrible person. And that's 01:49:57.199 --> 01:49:59.319 why, you know, if you see this attorney general 01:49:59.319 --> 01:50:03.300 in Alabama, you know, this idea that. He says 01:50:03.300 --> 01:50:04.819 there are these horrible people in the world, 01:50:04.960 --> 01:50:07.939 people who have no respect for human life, and 01:50:07.939 --> 01:50:11.119 yet he's presiding over 1 ,500 of them dying. 01:50:11.300 --> 01:50:13.479 But he doesn't imagine that he's part of the 01:50:13.479 --> 01:50:16.760 problem. Respect for human life while human life 01:50:16.760 --> 01:50:19.140 is dying in these places where people are taken 01:50:19.140 --> 01:50:21.939 if they show no respect for human life. And they're 01:50:21.939 --> 01:50:23.579 being killed by the people who are watching over 01:50:23.579 --> 01:50:26.560 them. Yeah. So it's a very topsy -turvy world. 01:50:27.439 --> 01:50:32.779 And also cruelty plays a part in it. sometimes 01:50:32.779 --> 01:50:35.579 we say about this film that, you know, it's about 01:50:35.579 --> 01:50:38.000 what we do to each other when no one's watching. 01:50:38.579 --> 01:50:41.520 Like, you know, all human beings have a little 01:50:41.520 --> 01:50:44.380 bit of a propensity to want to put a firecracker 01:50:44.380 --> 01:50:46.960 in a frog's mouth and just see what happens. 01:50:47.140 --> 01:50:50.319 You know, there's a level of cruelty that I think 01:50:50.319 --> 01:50:53.520 we have intrinsically. You certainly want to 01:50:53.520 --> 01:50:57.199 other a person, right? Absolutely. And that's, 01:50:57.239 --> 01:51:00.579 to some extent, why... When it's exposed, right, 01:51:00.680 --> 01:51:02.720 when there's transparency, when the press is 01:51:02.720 --> 01:51:04.699 allowed to report on what's happening inside 01:51:04.699 --> 01:51:08.220 prisons, people kind of get a conscience because 01:51:08.220 --> 01:51:10.319 they start realizing, I wouldn't want to do that 01:51:10.319 --> 01:51:12.380 in front of my kid or I wouldn't want to do that 01:51:12.380 --> 01:51:14.420 if it ends up in the paper. I wouldn't want to, 01:51:14.420 --> 01:51:17.060 you know, and I think that is kind of a balancing 01:51:17.060 --> 01:51:19.359 effect, which is one of the reasons why this 01:51:19.359 --> 01:51:24.680 like war on, you know, on transparency is a. 01:51:24.970 --> 01:51:26.729 It's a huge problem, right? We're not allowed 01:51:26.729 --> 01:51:28.510 to see what's happening in prisons even though 01:51:28.510 --> 01:51:31.210 we're paying for them. And the Supreme Court 01:51:31.210 --> 01:51:34.270 had this ruling that said that wardens could 01:51:34.270 --> 01:51:38.949 deny access to journalists simply by citing safety 01:51:38.949 --> 01:51:41.970 and security. But meantime, in the last 20 years, 01:51:42.210 --> 01:51:44.470 no journalist has been harmed inside a prison. 01:51:44.689 --> 01:51:47.310 So who's all the secrecy keeping safe, right? 01:51:48.569 --> 01:51:52.449 We're sort of perpetuating a system. Our job... 01:51:52.600 --> 01:51:54.539 going into the Alabama state prison system was 01:51:54.539 --> 01:51:57.159 to shine a light on that. It shouldn't be that 01:51:57.159 --> 01:51:59.779 these guys who are incarcerated have to take 01:51:59.779 --> 01:52:02.560 life and death risks using contraband cell phones 01:52:02.560 --> 01:52:05.000 to show what's happening in institutions that 01:52:05.000 --> 01:52:07.979 I'm paying for and you're paying for. We're spending 01:52:07.979 --> 01:52:12.800 $116 billion a year in the United States on prisons, 01:52:12.880 --> 01:52:20.340 jails, parole. That is an insane number. if we're 01:52:20.340 --> 01:52:22.380 spending that much money, we should sort of know 01:52:22.380 --> 01:52:25.039 what every one of those dollars is going to. 01:52:25.180 --> 01:52:27.760 And we should have watchdogs who will say, hey, 01:52:27.800 --> 01:52:29.500 guess what? In Alabama, they're supposed to be 01:52:29.500 --> 01:52:31.939 paying for a drug treatment program. We don't 01:52:31.939 --> 01:52:35.260 know where the money's going. Right. Yeah. Transparency 01:52:35.260 --> 01:52:37.180 is always good, especially in something like 01:52:37.180 --> 01:52:41.140 that. I mean, to me, the idea of preventing journalists 01:52:41.140 --> 01:52:46.300 from it almost is akin to these ag gag laws that 01:52:46.300 --> 01:52:48.880 they've slapped in states that have factory farming 01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:52.060 to prevent people from filming the horrific treatment 01:52:52.060 --> 01:52:54.100 of some of these animals because they would be 01:52:54.100 --> 01:52:56.460 bad for business. You know, it's just fucking 01:52:56.460 --> 01:52:58.859 crazy. Like, it should be bad for business and 01:52:58.859 --> 01:53:00.359 people shouldn't tolerate it. They should take 01:53:00.359 --> 01:53:02.460 their business elsewhere, which is what transparency 01:53:02.460 --> 01:53:04.340 is all about. You don't want to buy chickens 01:53:04.340 --> 01:53:07.159 from a place that. brutally beats their chickens 01:53:07.159 --> 01:53:09.659 or pigs or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 01:53:09.720 --> 01:53:11.560 And I mean, and a lot of people say, oh, well, 01:53:11.619 --> 01:53:13.680 you know, it's going to upset. It's we don't 01:53:13.680 --> 01:53:16.239 need to upset the public. What are you doing 01:53:16.239 --> 01:53:20.899 something for inside a slaughterhouse that would 01:53:20.899 --> 01:53:23.819 upset the public? Like there are ways to if you 01:53:23.819 --> 01:53:25.579 want to euthanize an animal or something like 01:53:25.579 --> 01:53:27.060 that, there are ways to do it where you're not 01:53:27.060 --> 01:53:30.300 using like a bolt and. smashing their skull with 01:53:30.300 --> 01:53:32.359 it. Well, the bolt is actually the most humane 01:53:32.359 --> 01:53:34.500 way because it instantaneously kills them. The 01:53:34.500 --> 01:53:36.500 other way is when they hang them by their ankles 01:53:36.500 --> 01:53:38.539 and slip their neck. That's a little rougher, 01:53:38.619 --> 01:53:41.960 but that's if you want kosher. There's a lot 01:53:41.960 --> 01:53:44.579 of weird ways that they kill animals, but it's 01:53:44.579 --> 01:53:47.760 really the beating and it's the horrific torture 01:53:47.760 --> 01:53:51.079 that the cruel people that work there sometimes 01:53:51.079 --> 01:53:53.319 do. Because there's been some videos that have 01:53:53.319 --> 01:53:55.359 been released of people beating animals with 01:53:55.359 --> 01:53:58.380 crowbars and stuff for no fucking reason. Just 01:53:58.380 --> 01:54:01.880 sadistic, sick people that just happen to work 01:54:01.880 --> 01:54:03.539 in these places. They become very accustomed 01:54:03.539 --> 01:54:06.500 to treating these animals badly, just like security 01:54:06.500 --> 01:54:10.239 guards become very accustomed to treating prisoners 01:54:10.239 --> 01:54:13.060 badly. It's kind of along the same lines. I totally 01:54:13.060 --> 01:54:17.020 agree. And just imagine what would happen if 01:54:17.020 --> 01:54:20.899 – what if Tyson Foods or any of these companies 01:54:20.899 --> 01:54:23.800 just – the policy was just if the press wants 01:54:23.800 --> 01:54:25.579 to come in and photograph and the press wants 01:54:25.579 --> 01:54:26.939 to come in and write about it, they're allowed 01:54:26.939 --> 01:54:29.579 to come in once a week or whatever. Just do whatever 01:54:29.579 --> 01:54:31.560 they want. Well, it should be non -negotiable. 01:54:31.640 --> 01:54:34.199 It should be a part of the ability to run a facility 01:54:34.199 --> 01:54:36.539 like that because of the consequences. Because 01:54:36.539 --> 01:54:38.560 if you don't do that, there is the potential 01:54:38.560 --> 01:54:41.819 for you being a horrific abuser of animals. Of 01:54:41.819 --> 01:54:43.939 course. And nobody wants to buy your chicken 01:54:43.939 --> 01:54:46.020 or your pork or whatever it is if you're doing 01:54:46.020 --> 01:54:49.979 that. And we should know. But like criminalizing 01:54:49.979 --> 01:54:54.840 taking video of animals being abused. Crazy. 01:54:55.279 --> 01:54:57.899 Like how could you justify that? You would only 01:54:57.899 --> 01:55:02.220 do it if you value profit over ethics, over morals. 01:55:02.399 --> 01:55:05.060 That's the only thing. If profit is more important 01:55:05.060 --> 01:55:08.560 than educating people on the horrific nature 01:55:08.560 --> 01:55:11.659 of how these animals are treated, it's more important 01:55:11.659 --> 01:55:13.539 to you. Well, what's really important is we have 01:55:13.539 --> 01:55:17.409 cheap bacon. OK. Yeah. But it's a big it's like 01:55:17.409 --> 01:55:19.529 a big tapestry because the diffusion of responsibility 01:55:19.529 --> 01:55:23.489 figures into it. Right. And, you know, the perverting 01:55:23.489 --> 01:55:26.630 effect of money figures into it. But it's a very 01:55:26.630 --> 01:55:28.949 I mean, I think there's just being accustomed 01:55:28.949 --> 01:55:33.010 to horrors. You know, I knew a guy who worked 01:55:33.010 --> 01:55:36.710 at a slaughterhouse and he told me, like, you 01:55:36.710 --> 01:55:39.829 never get the smell of blood off of you. And 01:55:39.829 --> 01:55:42.770 he goes and you never get. Just like the image 01:55:42.770 --> 01:55:45.210 of animals dying. He goes, you got to understand, 01:55:45.329 --> 01:55:46.470 like, if you're working in a slaughterhouse, 01:55:46.609 --> 01:55:50.250 you're seeing who knows how many thousands of 01:55:50.250 --> 01:55:53.829 cows die a week. Just thousands, just thousands 01:55:53.829 --> 01:55:58.390 of death, constant death. Most farmers never 01:55:58.390 --> 01:56:01.149 saw that. Like the way people used to raise animals 01:56:01.149 --> 01:56:06.149 for food, you know, you would kill a cow and 01:56:06.149 --> 01:56:09.029 you would eat it for six months. You know what 01:56:09.029 --> 01:56:12.279 I mean? Like you would. You could kill the occasional 01:56:12.279 --> 01:56:16.760 chicken. You weren't seeing thousands of dead 01:56:16.760 --> 01:56:20.100 animals a week. You weren't, like, seeing thousands 01:56:20.100 --> 01:56:22.720 of them get disemboweled a week. It's like after 01:56:22.720 --> 01:56:25.079 a while. And you're in a factory. They're going 01:56:25.079 --> 01:56:27.979 by on hooks on a conveyor belt. Like, what are 01:56:27.979 --> 01:56:31.600 we doing? This is crazy. I went to visit a prison. 01:56:32.119 --> 01:56:34.979 I went sort of on a series of prison visits in 01:56:34.979 --> 01:56:40.899 Berlin and Norway and a few other places. sort 01:56:40.899 --> 01:56:44.260 of elderly woman that was like a deputy commissioner, 01:56:44.359 --> 01:56:46.579 I think, in North Carolina in the prison system, 01:56:47.020 --> 01:56:50.619 Virginia, Ginny. And I loved her. She was so 01:56:50.619 --> 01:56:52.920 smart. And the first thing they do is they bring 01:56:52.920 --> 01:56:56.180 you to a concentration camp. So they bring you 01:56:56.180 --> 01:56:59.479 to Sachsenhausen before they take you to the 01:56:59.479 --> 01:57:02.460 prisons to see how the prisons are run. And we're 01:57:02.460 --> 01:57:04.880 standing there in this concentration camp with 01:57:04.880 --> 01:57:08.260 the... And the woman says, well, this is where 01:57:08.260 --> 01:57:11.039 they would bring in the people on the trains 01:57:11.039 --> 01:57:13.279 and then they would take them out. And then this 01:57:13.279 --> 01:57:15.619 is where they would, you know, shave their heads 01:57:15.619 --> 01:57:17.640 and then they would strip them down and they 01:57:17.640 --> 01:57:20.239 would spray them with fire hoses and water. And 01:57:20.239 --> 01:57:22.220 then they would put powder, disinfectant powder 01:57:22.220 --> 01:57:24.739 on them. They would take away all of their, you 01:57:24.739 --> 01:57:28.640 know, any kind of distinguishing marks that put 01:57:28.640 --> 01:57:31.279 them all in the same outfit. And they would give 01:57:31.279 --> 01:57:33.319 them a number instead of their name. They would 01:57:33.319 --> 01:57:35.699 be, you know. And everybody started looking at 01:57:35.699 --> 01:57:38.319 it like very disturbed. And Ginny leans over 01:57:38.319 --> 01:57:41.520 to me and she says, you know, Andrew, we do every 01:57:41.520 --> 01:57:46.079 one of those things in our prisons today. And 01:57:46.079 --> 01:57:51.060 you realize that this dehumanization, this homogenization, 01:57:51.159 --> 01:57:54.560 this like making everybody look the same is part 01:57:54.560 --> 01:57:57.539 of just desensitizing us to what we're going 01:57:57.539 --> 01:58:00.020 to do to those people because they just look 01:58:00.020 --> 01:58:02.489 like. They look like bad people because, you 01:58:02.489 --> 01:58:03.850 know, that's what happens when you shave your 01:58:03.850 --> 01:58:06.010 head and you're pale and you have the same outfit 01:58:06.010 --> 01:58:08.189 and you look like a convict. You've turned them 01:58:08.189 --> 01:58:10.670 into another. Yeah, you've turned them into another. 01:58:11.550 --> 01:58:15.289 tribal nature of ancient human civilization we 01:58:15.289 --> 01:58:19.630 have almost like a deep -seated dna that allows 01:58:19.630 --> 01:58:22.109 us to other people because those people were 01:58:22.109 --> 01:58:24.109 coming and they were going to kill your tribal 01:58:24.109 --> 01:58:28.250 members and steal your resources and do whatever 01:58:28.250 --> 01:58:31.069 they could to the survivors and it was all horrific 01:58:31.069 --> 01:58:33.670 and so we have this thing that we're able to 01:58:33.670 --> 01:58:37.489 do that allows us to attack or to go after people 01:58:37.489 --> 01:58:40.090 and just to not think of them as your brothers 01:58:40.090 --> 01:58:42.810 and sisters and neighbors and fellow human beings 01:58:42.810 --> 01:58:46.250 sharing this wonderful spinning ball. No. These 01:58:46.250 --> 01:58:48.750 are evil people. These are others. You kill them. 01:58:48.989 --> 01:58:51.989 These are fill in the blank. These are the Japanese. 01:58:52.310 --> 01:58:54.470 These are the Germans. These are the this. These 01:58:54.470 --> 01:58:56.310 are the that. Whatever it is that we're at war 01:58:56.310 --> 01:58:58.810 with, those are the people that are not us and 01:58:58.810 --> 01:59:01.409 we kill them. And that's how you feel about prisoners. 01:59:01.930 --> 01:59:05.560 And then there's the other side where You go 01:59:05.560 --> 01:59:08.560 too far the other way and you have these crazy 01:59:08.560 --> 01:59:11.439 no cash bail policies where you've got violent 01:59:11.439 --> 01:59:15.140 offenders in and out of jail constantly. You've 01:59:15.140 --> 01:59:19.239 got people that have been arrested 40 times pushing 01:59:19.239 --> 01:59:22.399 old people in front of the train in New York 01:59:22.399 --> 01:59:25.039 City. You've got people that are just like mentally 01:59:25.039 --> 01:59:27.539 ill, violent criminals punching women on the 01:59:27.539 --> 01:59:29.600 street in Seattle. And they just keep getting 01:59:29.600 --> 01:59:32.199 out of jail. And you go, how is this possible? 01:59:32.420 --> 01:59:35.319 How is this OK, too? Yeah. Because that's not 01:59:35.319 --> 01:59:37.640 good either. Yeah, you can't. But I think to 01:59:37.640 --> 01:59:44.579 the extent to which we could get everybody, which 01:59:44.579 --> 01:59:46.659 only is going to happen in little bits and little 01:59:46.659 --> 01:59:49.319 areas where we can make an impact, but we're 01:59:49.319 --> 01:59:53.199 trying to say, well, look, it shouldn't be, you 01:59:53.199 --> 01:59:57.779 know, it shouldn't be that everybody who says 01:59:57.779 --> 02:00:00.020 that we shouldn't be running our prison industrial 02:00:00.020 --> 02:00:03.819 complex the way we are is soft on crime. It's 02:00:03.819 --> 02:00:07.579 OK to be tough on crime. It's OK to recognize 02:00:07.579 --> 02:00:10.000 that some people need to be separated out from 02:00:10.000 --> 02:00:16.279 society. But if it becomes so polarized, then 02:00:16.279 --> 02:00:19.399 you get the progressive DA who, you know, there 02:00:19.399 --> 02:00:22.619 are some very smart ones. And then you get some 02:00:22.619 --> 02:00:24.300 who are just saying, well, you know, we just 02:00:24.300 --> 02:00:26.539 should abolish prisons and therefore, you know, 02:00:26.560 --> 02:00:28.619 we don't need any of this. And that scares everybody 02:00:28.619 --> 02:00:31.500 and probably doesn't lead to any level because 02:00:31.500 --> 02:00:33.590 we all want public safety. Like everybody wants 02:00:33.590 --> 02:00:36.569 to be serious about public safety. That's different 02:00:36.569 --> 02:00:39.630 than being tough on crime. Yes. Well, it's also 02:00:39.630 --> 02:00:41.729 like if you're not addressing the root of crime, 02:00:41.890 --> 02:00:44.920 if you're not addressing the. Again, the same 02:00:44.920 --> 02:00:46.600 neighborhoods where it happens over and over 02:00:46.600 --> 02:00:50.439 and over. You don't have this rampant crime that's 02:00:50.439 --> 02:00:53.020 developing in Beverly Hills, right? It's all 02:00:53.020 --> 02:00:55.300 happening in these impoverished, gang -infested 02:00:55.300 --> 02:00:58.880 neighborhoods. Why has there been no resources 02:00:58.880 --> 02:01:03.020 put into that? Imagine the amount of return that 02:01:03.020 --> 02:01:04.859 you would get. I always say if you want to make 02:01:04.859 --> 02:01:07.460 America great again, here's the best way. Have 02:01:07.460 --> 02:01:10.439 less losers. How do you have less losers? Give 02:01:10.439 --> 02:01:14.739 more people an opportunity to succeed. It's not 02:01:14.739 --> 02:01:16.960 like we're all at the same starting block. We 02:01:16.960 --> 02:01:19.680 all know that. No one will say that. No one will 02:01:19.680 --> 02:01:21.920 say everybody is at the same line and how you 02:01:21.920 --> 02:01:24.260 get by in this life is depending upon how much 02:01:24.260 --> 02:01:26.119 work you put in once you're at the line. Well, 02:01:26.119 --> 02:01:30.279 that's not true. So how do we figure out these 02:01:30.279 --> 02:01:33.100 people that are at the farthest end of the starting 02:01:33.100 --> 02:01:36.920 line, the most fucked? Put some money into that. 02:01:37.100 --> 02:01:44.020 Fix that. Put some engineering into that. trying 02:01:44.020 --> 02:01:48.300 to devise some sort of a method to increase the 02:01:48.300 --> 02:01:51.920 odds of having more productive people come out 02:01:51.920 --> 02:01:54.579 of these places and give them hope. And you would 02:01:54.579 --> 02:01:57.279 have better neighbors. You'd have more people 02:01:57.279 --> 02:02:00.520 that are thriving in whatever business, more 02:02:00.520 --> 02:02:02.859 people that are artists, more people in the economy. 02:02:03.060 --> 02:02:05.340 The world would be a better place. Like, why 02:02:05.340 --> 02:02:08.479 wouldn't you invest in that? Well, because there's 02:02:08.479 --> 02:02:10.680 no money in it. You have to spend money on it. 02:02:11.350 --> 02:02:14.170 Or there's money in it, but nobody really wants 02:02:14.170 --> 02:02:16.810 to do the work to figure out. There's money in 02:02:16.810 --> 02:02:18.609 it, but you can't make that money. They're going 02:02:18.609 --> 02:02:20.250 to make that money, right? You're going to help 02:02:20.250 --> 02:02:22.250 people make money. And it will contribute to 02:02:22.250 --> 02:02:24.829 the GDP. It will contribute to the tax base, 02:02:24.909 --> 02:02:27.229 to the overall economy. But it's not a business 02:02:27.229 --> 02:02:30.050 where you can, like, say, oh, if I get into that 02:02:30.050 --> 02:02:33.789 business of helping people, I can get rich. And 02:02:33.789 --> 02:02:35.970 that's the problem. Yeah. I mean, if you try 02:02:35.970 --> 02:02:40.260 to make the – if every – if the – If the ultimate 02:02:40.260 --> 02:02:44.819 adjudicator of everything is whether it is turning 02:02:44.819 --> 02:02:48.659 a profit, you sort of race to the bottom, right? 02:02:48.840 --> 02:02:52.619 Nobody really wants to do anything smart. They 02:02:52.619 --> 02:02:54.739 just want to do things that enable them to get 02:02:54.739 --> 02:02:56.420 the most money the quickest. But ultimately, 02:02:56.560 --> 02:03:02.279 right now, spending $116 billion a year on our 02:03:02.279 --> 02:03:06.189 prison system, we've got... 5 % of the world's 02:03:06.189 --> 02:03:08.630 population, but we've got 20, 25 % of the world's 02:03:08.630 --> 02:03:11.670 prisoners. Crazy. Like, this whole thing. Fucking 02:03:11.670 --> 02:03:14.829 wild. What a wild statement. Yeah. It's incredible. 02:03:14.890 --> 02:03:18.489 That's a broken society. Like, if that's not 02:03:18.489 --> 02:03:21.250 evidence of a broken society, look, not like 02:03:21.250 --> 02:03:23.890 it's better in some of these other places that 02:03:23.890 --> 02:03:25.949 don't have a high percentage of people because 02:03:25.949 --> 02:03:27.869 they just kill them. Like, there's a lot of places 02:03:27.869 --> 02:03:29.869 where you do something bad, they just kill you. 02:03:29.930 --> 02:03:33.960 There's no thinking about, you know. But, I mean, 02:03:33.960 --> 02:03:36.939 in terms of like modern civilized society, you 02:03:36.939 --> 02:03:39.979 know, we don't do this well. No, we don't rehabilitate 02:03:39.979 --> 02:03:42.319 well. That's for damn sure. And we don't, as 02:03:42.319 --> 02:03:45.340 you're saying, we don't invest in kids. We don't, 02:03:45.340 --> 02:03:49.119 you know, like how are we in a situation where 02:03:49.119 --> 02:03:54.029 we are paying teachers? So little money that 02:03:54.029 --> 02:03:56.930 they have to use their own money to buy books 02:03:56.930 --> 02:04:00.569 and school supplies. We're beating the shit out 02:04:00.569 --> 02:04:03.149 of our teachers who are the people that are going 02:04:03.149 --> 02:04:05.149 to turn our kids into part of our community. 02:04:05.909 --> 02:04:07.829 How can we be surprised we don't have a community? 02:04:08.090 --> 02:04:10.149 Yeah, it's almost like it's a conspiracy. I mean, 02:04:10.170 --> 02:04:12.649 you realize why people slap that tinfoil hat 02:04:12.649 --> 02:04:15.279 on and tighten it down with a chin. Because, 02:04:15.279 --> 02:04:17.380 like, at a certain point in time, like, why wouldn't 02:04:17.380 --> 02:04:19.979 we put more money into schools? It seems kind 02:04:19.979 --> 02:04:23.199 of crazy. When you've got, like, in California, 02:04:23.260 --> 02:04:25.239 they've got programs that, like, spend hundreds 02:04:25.239 --> 02:04:27.399 of billions of dollars and go nowhere. Like, 02:04:27.479 --> 02:04:30.439 where's the railroad? You spend so much money. 02:04:30.500 --> 02:04:32.600 Where's all the tiny houses? Didn't you guys 02:04:32.600 --> 02:04:34.180 get hundreds of millions of dollars for tiny? 02:04:34.300 --> 02:04:36.359 Where the fuck is the tiny houses? No tiny houses? 02:04:36.739 --> 02:04:39.199 It's like not a one tiny house has been built. 02:04:40.329 --> 02:04:42.710 There's a lot of that stuff, the $24 billion 02:04:42.710 --> 02:04:44.250 to the homeless, the homeless people increase. 02:04:44.470 --> 02:04:48.050 Imagine if they put $24 billion into the education 02:04:48.050 --> 02:04:51.850 system. Guess what? You would probably ultimately 02:04:51.850 --> 02:04:55.930 wind up with less homeless. If you put $24 billion 02:04:55.930 --> 02:04:59.310 into education and community centers, God, imagine 02:04:59.310 --> 02:05:01.229 the work that you could do in California with 02:05:01.229 --> 02:05:04.970 $24 billion just in education. California would 02:05:04.970 --> 02:05:07.369 have the greatest education system in the country. 02:05:08.010 --> 02:05:10.670 If you just paid teachers an exorbitant amount 02:05:10.670 --> 02:05:14.250 a month, amount a year, had fantastic oversight, 02:05:14.630 --> 02:05:16.729 these incredibly well -structured education systems, 02:05:16.869 --> 02:05:20.489 great counseling, social workers that can help 02:05:20.489 --> 02:05:23.210 work with kids, people that can give them productive 02:05:23.210 --> 02:05:25.890 ways to expel some of this excess energy that 02:05:25.890 --> 02:05:29.010 they have, figure out how to focus, figure out 02:05:29.010 --> 02:05:32.630 what kind of jobs they maybe excel at based on 02:05:32.630 --> 02:05:34.829 their personality type, educate them towards 02:05:34.829 --> 02:05:39.239 that. You could get a lot done. You could get 02:05:39.239 --> 02:05:42.939 so much done with $24 billion. Instead, it just 02:05:42.939 --> 02:05:47.180 disappears like Kaiser Sosa. There's fucking 02:05:47.180 --> 02:05:49.979 no one knows where it went. There's no accountability. 02:05:50.119 --> 02:05:52.539 They veto. Everybody tries to put an audit on 02:05:52.539 --> 02:05:57.100 it. Yeah. How did Alabama's prisons go from $300 02:05:57.100 --> 02:06:00.380 million to $1 .3 billion? And they described 02:06:00.380 --> 02:06:02.859 it as inflation. And no one's like – no one's 02:06:02.859 --> 02:06:05.340 investigated. No one's going to jail. No one 02:06:05.340 --> 02:06:09.699 – like fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's 02:06:09.699 --> 02:06:13.859 – and I think that when you say it's a conspiracy, 02:06:14.119 --> 02:06:17.380 I really believe that – You know, conspiracies 02:06:17.380 --> 02:06:21.119 do not have to include people in dark back rooms, 02:06:21.319 --> 02:06:23.579 right? It's very often just everybody sitting 02:06:23.579 --> 02:06:25.340 around the table. Everybody knows what the motivation 02:06:25.340 --> 02:06:28.100 is. And they just go, OK, I'll do the thing. 02:06:28.180 --> 02:06:30.819 You do the thing. There's not nobody has to be 02:06:30.819 --> 02:06:33.260 rubbing their hands together and having secret 02:06:33.260 --> 02:06:36.619 meetings. They all know what's in their financial 02:06:36.619 --> 02:06:39.180 interest. Well, clearly, if you beat prisoners 02:06:39.180 --> 02:06:41.720 to death and then lie about it and you all agree 02:06:41.720 --> 02:06:43.880 that you're going to lie about it, you're conspiring. 02:06:44.439 --> 02:06:47.279 Right. Yeah. I mean, that's that happens obviously 02:06:47.279 --> 02:06:49.119 all the time. Clearly. Meetings like that all 02:06:49.119 --> 02:06:51.279 the time. Clearly. But I think there's an insidious 02:06:51.279 --> 02:06:55.539 element to the fact that, you know, that people 02:06:55.539 --> 02:06:58.479 are agreeing that twenty four billion dollars 02:06:58.479 --> 02:07:01.680 should be spent on X, Y or Z. Nobody really needs 02:07:01.680 --> 02:07:03.960 to get like a secret memo saying how they're 02:07:03.960 --> 02:07:05.859 going to steal that money. Like they just go, 02:07:05.920 --> 02:07:08.300 OK, in Alabama, what now? We're allowed to spend 02:07:08.300 --> 02:07:10.039 one point three billion dollars on one prison. 02:07:10.479 --> 02:07:13.779 Great. OK. Well, I'm not personally taking the 02:07:13.779 --> 02:07:16.140 $1 .3 – I'm not personally taking the billion 02:07:16.140 --> 02:07:18.859 -dollar overage myself. But it's going into the 02:07:18.859 --> 02:07:21.420 system the way that – Well, your first red flag 02:07:21.420 --> 02:07:24.119 is they start construction before the deal is 02:07:24.119 --> 02:07:28.060 even signed. They already start. So the fix is 02:07:28.060 --> 02:07:30.779 in. They know what's going on. Look, I grew up 02:07:30.779 --> 02:07:33.479 in Boston and Boston was a part of the most – 02:07:34.239 --> 02:07:36.600 corrupt construction site in the history of the 02:07:36.600 --> 02:07:39.619 country, the Big Dig. Big Dig, right. That fucking 02:07:39.619 --> 02:07:41.659 thing was supposed to take like, I don't know 02:07:41.659 --> 02:07:43.939 how long it was supposed to take, but it went 02:07:43.939 --> 02:07:47.239 on long after I moved out and then came back 02:07:47.239 --> 02:07:49.840 to Boston like 10 years later. It was still going 02:07:49.840 --> 02:07:53.680 on. I'm like, this is crazy. And by the time 02:07:53.680 --> 02:07:55.460 it did it, the population in Boston increased, 02:07:55.500 --> 02:07:59.180 so it didn't even really alleviate traffic. Yeah. 02:07:59.260 --> 02:08:00.840 But there's always going to be stuff like that. 02:08:00.859 --> 02:08:03.199 If you have no oversight or if you have people 02:08:03.199 --> 02:08:07.140 that can figure out a way to inflate this and 02:08:07.140 --> 02:08:09.939 add on to that and da -da -da -da -da -da, next 02:08:09.939 --> 02:08:14.739 thing you know it. Well, the press is extremely 02:08:14.739 --> 02:08:17.319 important, which is why government, this government 02:08:17.319 --> 02:08:19.359 or prior government, they don't like the press, 02:08:19.460 --> 02:08:29.859 right? people that are able to make a living 02:08:29.859 --> 02:08:32.720 being journalists and you're not, you know, firing 02:08:32.720 --> 02:08:34.600 everybody who's a good investigative reporter, 02:08:34.920 --> 02:08:37.399 then that should be. It's one of the reasons 02:08:37.399 --> 02:08:40.039 why the country was founded in that way, why 02:08:40.039 --> 02:08:42.659 freedom of the press is so important, is because 02:08:42.659 --> 02:08:45.720 it's the only disinfectant. It's the only way. 02:08:45.840 --> 02:08:47.720 And it doesn't mean people don't use the press 02:08:47.720 --> 02:08:50.960 in malevolent ways or people don't bullshit in 02:08:50.960 --> 02:08:52.539 the press. Of course. People bullshit everything. 02:08:52.760 --> 02:08:54.899 Yeah. But, like, the public kind of has a sense 02:08:54.899 --> 02:08:57.119 or at least used to have a sense and hopefully 02:08:57.119 --> 02:09:01.380 will again. That when somebody does an investigative 02:09:01.380 --> 02:09:04.260 story and they are able to produce the facts 02:09:04.260 --> 02:09:06.680 and figure out who's really responsible for a 02:09:06.680 --> 02:09:09.199 certain kind of corruption, that it reduces the 02:09:09.199 --> 02:09:12.279 corruption. Just is the case. And it's like you 02:09:12.279 --> 02:09:14.500 can't really regulate it or you can regulate 02:09:14.500 --> 02:09:16.659 it. But if you regulate it, nobody's paying attention 02:09:16.659 --> 02:09:19.500 to it. Then the press has to identify that people 02:09:19.500 --> 02:09:31.279 are breaking the rules. making sure that government 02:09:31.279 --> 02:09:34.880 institutions and others don't defy the Constitution, 02:09:35.180 --> 02:09:38.359 right? So in Alabama, clearly, every time you 02:09:38.359 --> 02:09:40.300 see one of these events that happens in our film, 02:09:40.520 --> 02:09:43.859 those are all crimes. Those are being committed 02:09:43.859 --> 02:09:47.699 by a state actor, by a prison guard, right? Those 02:09:47.699 --> 02:09:49.760 are crimes being committed against our fellow 02:09:49.760 --> 02:09:51.439 citizens. The fact that some of these people 02:09:51.439 --> 02:09:53.359 are incarcerated doesn't mean they're also supposed 02:09:53.359 --> 02:09:57.189 to be killed or named, right? And so who really 02:09:57.189 --> 02:09:59.649 monitors that is the U .S. Department of Justice 02:09:59.649 --> 02:10:02.430 because at the end of the day, their job is to 02:10:02.430 --> 02:10:06.350 maintain a constitutional level of care. And 02:10:06.350 --> 02:10:07.989 it's not – by the way, that's not that great, 02:10:08.130 --> 02:10:09.989 right? It's like you have to make sure that there's 02:10:09.989 --> 02:10:12.609 no cruel and unusual punishment. Well, clearly 02:10:12.609 --> 02:10:15.289 in Alabama, there is. Well, they started starving 02:10:15.289 --> 02:10:17.470 them, which is really crazy. During the strike 02:10:17.470 --> 02:10:20.399 … They were giving them like a tiny ration. Yeah. 02:10:20.500 --> 02:10:24.600 Sometimes no food for days. Yeah. And so the 02:10:24.600 --> 02:10:27.359 DOJ's job is to do that. What was the DOJ doing, 02:10:27.380 --> 02:10:30.180 you know, a few years back is they were doing 02:10:30.180 --> 02:10:34.079 a kind of a sort of an OK job pursuing just the 02:10:34.079 --> 02:10:36.239 worst actors, the worst of the worst. So they 02:10:36.239 --> 02:10:38.380 would find a police station that was just regularly 02:10:38.380 --> 02:10:43.260 harming people in its jails, arresting people 02:10:43.260 --> 02:10:47.779 for no reason, you know. They were finding prison 02:10:47.779 --> 02:10:51.159 systems where people were getting murdered, like 02:10:51.159 --> 02:10:58.119 in Alabama, and that was going okay. Well, that 02:10:58.119 --> 02:11:01.180 whole civil rights division of the DOJ is now 02:11:01.180 --> 02:11:04.119 basically gone, right? It's been totally repurposed. 02:11:04.239 --> 02:11:08.100 So now it's dealing with, you know, reverse racism 02:11:08.100 --> 02:11:11.729 and various things like that. But they're not 02:11:11.729 --> 02:11:13.729 doing those other cases anymore. They don't care 02:11:13.729 --> 02:11:15.630 about what's happening in a police department 02:11:15.630 --> 02:11:18.170 or what's happening in a – so you don't even 02:11:18.170 --> 02:11:21.229 have that level of scrutiny. When did all this 02:11:21.229 --> 02:11:24.449 change? I mean I think most recently you've seen 02:11:24.449 --> 02:11:26.989 the DOJ just dismantle the Civil Rights Division. 02:11:27.289 --> 02:11:29.470 So that's been in the current administration. 02:11:29.470 --> 02:11:31.510 And the Civil Rights Division was in charge of 02:11:31.510 --> 02:11:33.430 looking at the prisons? Yeah. So what have they 02:11:33.430 --> 02:11:35.010 done during the last four years before that? 02:11:35.409 --> 02:11:39.239 They didn't – They also didn't do a great job, 02:11:39.340 --> 02:11:44.239 but they did bring actions that had impact in 02:11:44.239 --> 02:11:45.739 a bunch of different states. So, for example, 02:11:45.819 --> 02:11:48.300 they sued the state of Alabama, which happened 02:11:48.300 --> 02:11:51.460 under the first Trump administration, actually. 02:11:51.960 --> 02:11:57.460 The case against Alabama started under Obama. 02:11:58.290 --> 02:12:01.729 Then under Trump, Jeff Sessions had to approve 02:12:01.729 --> 02:12:04.270 the issuance of these letters, these findings 02:12:04.270 --> 02:12:06.869 letters. And then they had when Alabama said, 02:12:07.090 --> 02:12:09.890 you know, take a hike. You're wrong. We don't 02:12:09.890 --> 02:12:11.630 agree. We're not going to make a consent decree. 02:12:11.829 --> 02:12:14.170 We're not going to settle. Then they had to sue 02:12:14.170 --> 02:12:19.510 them. So that happened under Jeff Sessions. And 02:12:19.510 --> 02:12:23.510 that was now, you know, two administrations ago. 02:12:23.810 --> 02:12:26.909 The Trump administration brought this action. 02:12:27.840 --> 02:12:31.300 But it's just being dragged on and dragged on. 02:12:31.420 --> 02:12:33.539 And now the DOJ doesn't really care about this 02:12:33.539 --> 02:12:35.380 kind of litigation. So the people that were running 02:12:35.380 --> 02:12:37.560 it are gone, all those people. Well, I have to 02:12:37.560 --> 02:12:41.539 also imagine that there are so many cases. And 02:12:41.539 --> 02:12:45.239 if the press was allowed to weekly, if there 02:12:45.239 --> 02:12:48.119 was weekly access the press had to these correction 02:12:48.119 --> 02:12:50.899 facilities all over the country, the amount of 02:12:50.899 --> 02:12:54.779 cases would be fucking extraordinary. But because 02:12:54.779 --> 02:12:57.199 they've been allowed to hide. Because they've 02:12:57.199 --> 02:12:59.220 been allowed to do this stuff in complete secrecy 02:12:59.220 --> 02:13:00.899 with total control over whether or not things 02:13:00.899 --> 02:13:03.319 get released or don't get released. Like it's 02:13:03.319 --> 02:13:07.159 just – it's become just a part of the system. 02:13:07.380 --> 02:13:10.319 It's like standard operational procedure. And 02:13:10.319 --> 02:13:14.659 it's – I mean – But the cases would go down, 02:13:14.680 --> 02:13:16.779 right? Oh, yeah. As soon as you can see it. They 02:13:16.779 --> 02:13:18.760 would have to. If you're beating people in your 02:13:18.760 --> 02:13:20.779 care, if you're a prison guard like Roderick 02:13:20.779 --> 02:13:24.720 Gadsen and you've had 24 cases of excessive force. 02:13:24.939 --> 02:13:27.720 Yeah. It's sport for them. You know, you would 02:13:27.720 --> 02:13:30.720 say at one point, well, this is not working so 02:13:30.720 --> 02:13:33.899 great for me. So I want to at least behave somewhat 02:13:33.899 --> 02:13:37.500 better. Of course. Well, I think your film was 02:13:37.500 --> 02:13:40.159 probably the first time most people ever got 02:13:40.159 --> 02:13:44.840 a chance to see. And I would hope that your film 02:13:44.840 --> 02:13:47.119 and then also this conversation and the other 02:13:47.119 --> 02:13:50.760 ones that you've been having will move this conversation 02:13:50.760 --> 02:13:52.439 in a different direction where people start. 02:13:53.079 --> 02:13:55.020 talking about it openly where they're forced 02:13:55.020 --> 02:13:57.300 to do something because it seems like you have 02:13:57.300 --> 02:14:00.140 to force them to act. And they're probably dealing 02:14:00.140 --> 02:14:02.159 with so many other cases as well. This is just 02:14:02.159 --> 02:14:04.500 another burden to them. And if it's the prisoners, 02:14:04.619 --> 02:14:07.899 oh, well, that's the least priority situation 02:14:07.899 --> 02:14:09.859 we have to deal with. These people are bad people. 02:14:09.960 --> 02:14:12.560 They're in jail. Like those, the radio people 02:14:12.560 --> 02:14:15.750 that you used, their voices. Like, it's God. 02:14:15.930 --> 02:14:18.189 It's like, shut the fuck up. Like, you're listening 02:14:18.189 --> 02:14:21.989 to them. As a person who's had multiple podcasts 02:14:21.989 --> 02:14:25.670 with people that were wrongfully convicted, I've 02:14:25.670 --> 02:14:28.130 done a ton of them with my friend Josh Dubin, 02:14:28.189 --> 02:14:29.789 who was originally with the Innocence Project, 02:14:29.930 --> 02:14:32.489 and he's now with the Ike Perlmutter Center for 02:14:32.489 --> 02:14:36.449 Legal Justice. Like, his passion project is, 02:14:36.489 --> 02:14:39.010 besides being a successful attorney outside of 02:14:39.010 --> 02:14:41.909 that, his passion project is finding these very 02:14:41.909 --> 02:14:45.069 obvious cases. of people that were wrongfully 02:14:45.069 --> 02:14:47.609 convicted that have spent a giant chunk of their 02:14:47.609 --> 02:14:51.210 life in jail and through these podcasts we've 02:14:51.210 --> 02:14:53.430 gotten a bunch of these people out and you've 02:14:53.430 --> 02:14:55.489 got a chance to have conversations with them 02:14:55.489 --> 02:14:58.149 i've had a few on here and you have these conversations 02:14:58.149 --> 02:15:00.750 with these people and you realize like these 02:15:00.750 --> 02:15:05.229 are brilliant people who lost a giant chunk of 02:15:05.229 --> 02:15:10.109 their potential to nonsense yeah And I think 02:15:10.109 --> 02:15:12.810 if it's – first of all, I think Josh is really 02:15:12.810 --> 02:15:15.250 smart and I know I've – you've done a lot with 02:15:15.250 --> 02:15:18.149 him. And I think that's so important. There's 02:15:18.149 --> 02:15:23.689 always a tendency to sort of think of only wrongful 02:15:23.689 --> 02:15:28.189 convictions because everybody can agree that 02:15:28.189 --> 02:15:30.369 we shouldn't be locked up for something that 02:15:30.369 --> 02:15:32.850 we didn't do. We've had people on that weren't 02:15:32.850 --> 02:15:34.949 wrongfully convicted that did an extraordinary 02:15:34.949 --> 02:15:37.640 amount of time for a minor crime. Right. But 02:15:37.640 --> 02:15:40.180 unfortunately, one of them wind up getting out 02:15:40.180 --> 02:15:41.800 and then killing a guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cutting 02:15:41.800 --> 02:15:44.300 off his head and wearing a wig. He didn't, I 02:15:44.300 --> 02:15:48.020 guess he didn't know what the new cameras could 02:15:48.020 --> 02:15:51.960 do. Which is funny, but also not funny. You're 02:15:51.960 --> 02:15:53.840 saying it's a technology problem. He didn't understand 02:15:53.840 --> 02:15:55.220 the technology he was dealing with because he 02:15:55.220 --> 02:15:56.939 put on a wig and he thought, oh, I'm going to 02:15:56.939 --> 02:15:59.319 look like a woman. Like, bro, it was like HD. 02:15:59.979 --> 02:16:02.479 It's you with a wig. He was learning from Bob 02:16:02.479 --> 02:16:07.439 Durst. Well, I think he probably acted out of 02:16:07.439 --> 02:16:09.340 passion and then was trying to figure out how 02:16:09.340 --> 02:16:13.539 to rectify this problem that he created. But 02:16:13.539 --> 02:16:15.060 one thing I want to talk, I haven't met Josh, 02:16:15.220 --> 02:16:17.479 but I want to talk to him. And one thing I want 02:16:17.479 --> 02:16:20.189 to talk to him about is the fact that There is 02:16:20.189 --> 02:16:26.010 like a level of conviction on the part of a lot 02:16:26.010 --> 02:16:29.729 of prosecutors that they're on the – as you're 02:16:29.729 --> 02:16:31.670 saying, they're like – they're on that team. 02:16:31.949 --> 02:16:35.450 And therefore, they have to subscribe to everybody's 02:16:35.450 --> 02:16:37.110 guilty. Everybody should be locked up for as 02:16:37.110 --> 02:16:38.510 long as possible because there are all these 02:16:38.510 --> 02:16:40.290 other people that are defense lawyers and people 02:16:40.290 --> 02:16:42.649 like that who are on the other team. But then 02:16:42.649 --> 02:16:45.129 you end up with people like Steve Marshall who, 02:16:45.209 --> 02:16:47.229 by the way, is running for Senate. Right now. 02:16:47.290 --> 02:16:49.430 And we're pushing to get him to step down from 02:16:49.430 --> 02:16:52.209 his Senate run because, you know, he's sort of 02:16:52.209 --> 02:16:54.069 been exposed for what he's. And by the way, he 02:16:54.069 --> 02:16:55.889 said that he had never been in the film. He never 02:16:55.889 --> 02:16:57.829 met me. He just came out with a whole public 02:16:57.829 --> 02:16:59.629 statement saying I had nothing to do with those 02:16:59.629 --> 02:17:02.149 people. I never met them. I got like 50 pictures 02:17:02.149 --> 02:17:05.909 in my phone of him walking me around the statehouse 02:17:05.909 --> 02:17:09.049 in Alabama. You know, it's it was there's a missing 02:17:09.049 --> 02:17:12.190 piece there. But that's being very charitable. 02:17:13.309 --> 02:17:15.690 But why is it that – I'm a charitable person. 02:17:15.870 --> 02:17:19.229 But why is it that in Alabama, for example, there's 02:17:19.229 --> 02:17:23.069 a guy named Tafaris Johnson who was arrested 02:17:23.069 --> 02:17:26.829 for a murder a million years ago. He's been on 02:17:26.829 --> 02:17:30.190 death row the entire time. And the evidence against 02:17:30.190 --> 02:17:32.829 him totally fell apart. There are a dozen people 02:17:32.829 --> 02:17:35.329 that gave him an alibi that said we were with 02:17:35.329 --> 02:17:37.010 him at this club that was across town. He had 02:17:37.010 --> 02:17:41.250 nothing to do with this crime. And yet – and 02:17:41.250 --> 02:17:44.680 by the way, the DA – who that office is the office 02:17:44.680 --> 02:17:47.000 that should prosecute that crime. They've asked 02:17:47.000 --> 02:17:49.020 for a new trial. They've said that they're not 02:17:49.020 --> 02:17:51.979 confident that he's guilty. And yet the attorney 02:17:51.979 --> 02:17:55.120 general's office is continuing to try to execute 02:17:55.120 --> 02:17:57.059 him. They're trying to kill him for something 02:17:57.059 --> 02:17:59.600 which he clearly did not do. There's another 02:17:59.600 --> 02:18:03.059 case, a guy named Chris Barber, where there's 02:18:03.059 --> 02:18:05.340 DNA evidence that showed that somebody else committed 02:18:05.340 --> 02:18:09.260 the crime and the DA is trying to execute Christopher 02:18:09.260 --> 02:18:13.590 Barber. And so, you know, there's this teaming, 02:18:13.590 --> 02:18:18.729 you know, where you become a part of law enforcement 02:18:18.729 --> 02:18:23.709 and then somehow you lose your sense of judgment 02:18:23.709 --> 02:18:26.270 or nuance, your ability to decide who's guilty 02:18:26.270 --> 02:18:29.549 and who's not guilty. And that's a really dangerous 02:18:29.549 --> 02:18:31.610 thing. Yeah, because your career depends on you 02:18:31.610 --> 02:18:34.860 getting a win. Your career advances if you get 02:18:34.860 --> 02:18:37.360 a win. The way you get a win is convict people. 02:18:37.540 --> 02:18:39.819 And not getting convictions overturned, that's 02:18:39.819 --> 02:18:43.219 a loss. That fucks up your career. So better 02:18:43.219 --> 02:18:47.239 to kill them. Yeah. Which is really crazy. Yeah. 02:18:47.299 --> 02:18:53.079 I mean it's disturbing that we haven't come up 02:18:53.079 --> 02:18:58.760 with ways to identify fairness, right? That fairness 02:18:58.760 --> 02:19:02.020 should be the method by which you judge how a 02:19:02.020 --> 02:19:04.159 – district attorney performs. It's like, well, 02:19:04.239 --> 02:19:06.000 we decided to prosecute a certain number of cases. 02:19:06.260 --> 02:19:08.659 Some of those cases weren't worth prosecuting. 02:19:08.659 --> 02:19:10.840 Some of those cases were going to turn into wrongful 02:19:10.840 --> 02:19:12.819 convictions. We're not just going to prosecute 02:19:12.819 --> 02:19:14.520 everything, which is why this whole thing about 02:19:14.520 --> 02:19:16.440 like Brady material, where you're supposed to 02:19:16.440 --> 02:19:19.340 give the other side anything that comes out in 02:19:19.340 --> 02:19:22.040 the investigation that might be used to prove 02:19:22.040 --> 02:19:24.280 their innocence. If there's something that goes 02:19:24.280 --> 02:19:26.579 against the criminal case, you have to provide 02:19:26.579 --> 02:19:29.180 it to the lawyer on the other side. But regularly, 02:19:29.459 --> 02:19:32.120 prosecutors just bury this information. You have 02:19:32.120 --> 02:19:33.979 some witness that said, I was with that person 02:19:33.979 --> 02:19:36.079 at the time, and that witness's testimony disappears. 02:19:36.180 --> 02:19:38.920 Or you have something that shows that the gun 02:19:38.920 --> 02:19:40.459 that they thought was used to commit the crime 02:19:40.459 --> 02:19:41.959 wasn't the one that was used to commit the crime. 02:19:42.059 --> 02:19:45.079 So there's just a – that's the thing, the teaming, 02:19:45.079 --> 02:19:47.620 the decision that you have to be part of one 02:19:47.620 --> 02:19:51.860 side or another. I really think that that part 02:19:51.860 --> 02:19:56.440 of your special where you're sort of like – Putting 02:19:56.440 --> 02:19:58.379 me in the position of somebody who's having to 02:19:58.379 --> 02:20:01.180 make a decision about what team I'm on and where 02:20:01.180 --> 02:20:04.899 I lose the thread. You know, that's like that's 02:20:04.899 --> 02:20:07.399 a very significant thing that you did there, 02:20:07.559 --> 02:20:09.500 you know, because it was like a way of bringing 02:20:09.500 --> 02:20:12.100 to the average citizen that feeling that they're 02:20:12.100 --> 02:20:15.040 all having right now. Yeah, you all get lumped 02:20:15.040 --> 02:20:18.379 into it. Everybody gets lumped into it because 02:20:18.379 --> 02:20:20.360 there's only two choices in this country. And 02:20:20.360 --> 02:20:22.700 that's stupid. Or you could be one of those wacky 02:20:22.700 --> 02:20:25.139 libertarians, you know. And then you're like, 02:20:25.219 --> 02:20:27.319 oh, Bob's a libertarian. He's out of his fucking 02:20:27.319 --> 02:20:29.540 mind. That shit's never going to work. You know, 02:20:29.540 --> 02:20:32.559 what else you get? I mean, I'm always, I'm always 02:20:32.559 --> 02:20:36.260 curious about, I'm always asking myself what 02:20:36.260 --> 02:20:38.120 I should be, you know, what I should be spending 02:20:38.120 --> 02:20:41.260 my time on. And I get involved in a film and 02:20:41.260 --> 02:20:44.319 it kind of grabs you and it could. How do you 02:20:44.319 --> 02:20:48.979 decide? I feel like it decides. You know, I feel 02:20:48.979 --> 02:20:51.219 like I'm just sort of walking around thinking. 02:20:52.090 --> 02:20:53.409 Maybe I don't need to make another one of these 02:20:53.409 --> 02:20:56.170 things. They're very exhausting. And then something 02:20:56.170 --> 02:20:59.790 happens or, you know, my shrink says to me, yeah, 02:20:59.889 --> 02:21:01.270 I know you always say you're not going to make 02:21:01.270 --> 02:21:03.329 another movie, but I think you're better when 02:21:03.329 --> 02:21:05.329 you're making a movie. I think you're better 02:21:05.329 --> 02:21:07.389 when you're engaged in something like this. And 02:21:07.389 --> 02:21:09.969 I'm curious for, you know, you've built this 02:21:09.969 --> 02:21:15.069 incredible platform and you have access to just 02:21:15.069 --> 02:21:17.709 a remarkable number of people in the universe. 02:21:18.530 --> 02:21:22.079 And what do you feel like your mission is? What 02:21:22.079 --> 02:21:24.440 do you feel like is the, you know, when you get 02:21:24.440 --> 02:21:26.280 to the end of a week and you look back and you 02:21:26.280 --> 02:21:29.020 think like, I did what I was, I did what I set 02:21:29.020 --> 02:21:34.840 out to do this week. All I ever do is try to 02:21:34.840 --> 02:21:37.040 talk to people I'm interested in talking to and 02:21:37.040 --> 02:21:40.479 that's it. And I feel like that's what I started 02:21:40.479 --> 02:21:44.860 with and that's what I stuck with. And if I deviate 02:21:44.860 --> 02:21:50.000 from that path, if I say. Oh, I'll get this guy 02:21:50.000 --> 02:21:52.479 on because he's famous and then I'll get more 02:21:52.479 --> 02:21:56.520 views. Or I'll get her on because she's controversial 02:21:56.520 --> 02:22:00.399 and I'll get more views. I don't think like that 02:22:00.399 --> 02:22:04.680 at all. I don't allow it into my head. I get 02:22:04.680 --> 02:22:08.120 a list of people on my phone that are interested 02:22:08.120 --> 02:22:10.819 in coming on the show. And I spend a couple hours, 02:22:10.940 --> 02:22:14.399 a few times a week, just going over this list. 02:22:14.579 --> 02:22:17.989 And then I'll go, hmm. That's interesting. Let 02:22:17.989 --> 02:22:20.250 me look into this. And so then I'll do a search 02:22:20.250 --> 02:22:22.610 on this person and what they're interested in. 02:22:22.909 --> 02:22:25.889 And then maybe I'll watch a documentary or I'll 02:22:25.889 --> 02:22:27.870 get an audio book and I'll start listening to 02:22:27.870 --> 02:22:31.329 it on the way to work. And then I'll decide. 02:22:31.530 --> 02:22:34.110 And I'll go, yeah, okay, I like this. This is 02:22:34.110 --> 02:22:36.909 cool. I'm into this. This will be a conversation 02:22:36.909 --> 02:22:40.129 that I'll be genuinely curious about. And so 02:22:40.129 --> 02:22:43.190 that's the only way I do it. And I've done it 02:22:43.190 --> 02:22:45.959 that way from the very beginning. I either talk 02:22:45.959 --> 02:22:49.840 to my friends or I talk to people who I've seen 02:22:49.840 --> 02:22:52.340 a documentary that they did or read one of their 02:22:52.340 --> 02:22:54.819 books or I've watched a YouTube video with them 02:22:54.819 --> 02:22:56.620 and I thought they were fascinating. And then 02:22:56.620 --> 02:22:58.739 I reach out to my guy and I say, hey, can you 02:22:58.739 --> 02:23:00.860 see if this guy's interested in being on? And 02:23:00.860 --> 02:23:04.520 that's the only way I do it. So I feel like as 02:23:04.520 --> 02:23:08.959 long as I do that, I will continue to give people 02:23:08.959 --> 02:23:13.409 the same service. And this service is this is 02:23:13.409 --> 02:23:17.270 an extension of my curiosity, my honest curiosity 02:23:17.270 --> 02:23:21.110 to the world. So whoever I'm honestly curious 02:23:21.110 --> 02:23:25.069 about, sit them down, talk to them, do my best. 02:23:25.430 --> 02:23:28.629 That's it. And if I try to make anything more 02:23:28.629 --> 02:23:32.250 than that, if I try to change it or distort it 02:23:32.250 --> 02:23:34.889 or move it in a general direction or make it 02:23:34.889 --> 02:23:37.590 have a message or make it make more money or 02:23:37.590 --> 02:23:40.409 whatever it is, I'll fuck it up. That's what 02:23:40.409 --> 02:23:43.450 I think. I think that's really smart. And I think, 02:23:43.450 --> 02:23:46.690 you know, this is what's lacking is sort of authenticity. 02:23:46.750 --> 02:23:48.709 And everybody's like, oh, authenticity is so 02:23:48.709 --> 02:23:51.010 important. How can I manufacture that? Right. 02:23:51.069 --> 02:23:53.649 And I think your approach is really smart. I 02:23:53.649 --> 02:23:55.850 also think, you know, I think you talked about 02:23:55.850 --> 02:23:59.049 that you really like playing pool and that if 02:23:59.049 --> 02:24:00.549 you weren't doing this, you might just play pool 02:24:00.549 --> 02:24:02.110 all day. Yeah, that's what I would do. I like 02:24:02.110 --> 02:24:06.370 playing pool. But I'm wondering, like, you know, 02:24:06.409 --> 02:24:09.909 something's keeping you from playing pool. Right 02:24:09.909 --> 02:24:12.590 now. Well, I still enjoy this. If I didn't enjoy 02:24:12.590 --> 02:24:14.750 this, I would stop. Like I don't need any more 02:24:14.750 --> 02:24:17.309 money. I could just stop if I didn't enjoy it. 02:24:17.309 --> 02:24:20.270 But I do enjoy it. I am a very curious person. 02:24:20.309 --> 02:24:22.469 I'm fascinated by different people's perspectives, 02:24:22.809 --> 02:24:25.590 how they view the world, how they got to where 02:24:25.590 --> 02:24:27.489 they are, what was their first step, like why 02:24:27.489 --> 02:24:30.069 they make these choices. Like what is it about 02:24:30.069 --> 02:24:34.270 the way they think that makes them unique? I 02:24:34.270 --> 02:24:35.889 don't think I'm ever going to lose that. I think 02:24:35.889 --> 02:24:38.729 that's a very important part of my understanding 02:24:38.729 --> 02:24:42.790 of us as a species, us as a civilization. And 02:24:42.790 --> 02:24:46.829 I'm very fascinated with the history of the human 02:24:46.829 --> 02:24:49.569 race and how we got to this point and where we 02:24:49.569 --> 02:24:51.829 are and how we define what is normal and what 02:24:51.829 --> 02:24:54.790 is not normal and what our standards are and 02:24:54.790 --> 02:24:58.659 how they get manipulated. I don't think I'm ever 02:24:58.659 --> 02:25:00.739 going to stop being curious about those things. 02:25:00.819 --> 02:25:02.920 I may stop doing this publicly. I will never 02:25:02.920 --> 02:25:05.559 stop being curious. I'll never stop watching 02:25:05.559 --> 02:25:08.799 all these documentaries or reading books. I don't 02:25:08.799 --> 02:25:10.959 think I'll ever stop trying to have conversations 02:25:10.959 --> 02:25:13.540 with people even if I don't do it publicly because 02:25:13.540 --> 02:25:16.760 it's – I mean it's – this is totally accidental. 02:25:17.319 --> 02:25:18.479 I don't know if you know the history of this 02:25:18.479 --> 02:25:20.959 podcast. It started out with me and my friends 02:25:20.959 --> 02:25:24.360 just bullshitting in front of a laptop and there 02:25:24.360 --> 02:25:28.159 was no expectations. It made no money for years. 02:25:28.799 --> 02:25:32.700 And then it just kind of grew. And I never promoted 02:25:32.700 --> 02:25:35.639 it. I never went on anywhere and said, please 02:25:35.639 --> 02:25:37.979 watch my show. I never took an ad out anywhere. 02:25:38.319 --> 02:25:41.719 I just kept doing it. And it just snowballed 02:25:41.719 --> 02:25:44.479 to the point where I'm like, all right. And now 02:25:44.479 --> 02:25:46.700 I just feel like I have this responsibility. 02:25:47.100 --> 02:25:49.579 And I get up. And I go, all right, I got to do 02:25:49.579 --> 02:25:51.819 this thing today. Let me clear my mind first. 02:25:52.200 --> 02:25:54.639 So I go to the gym and I work out and I get in 02:25:54.639 --> 02:25:56.520 the cold plunge and I get in the sauna and I 02:25:56.520 --> 02:25:59.559 clear my mind out. And then I'm like, make sure 02:25:59.559 --> 02:26:02.799 I'm prepared and just show up at work. Yeah. 02:26:02.860 --> 02:26:04.739 I notice that you're not like you don't look 02:26:04.739 --> 02:26:07.559 at shit. You don't look at your phone. No, you 02:26:07.559 --> 02:26:09.920 can't do that. That distracts people. I totally 02:26:09.920 --> 02:26:13.979 agree. It's very gross. Yeah. Especially if you're 02:26:13.979 --> 02:26:15.299 talking to someone that has something really 02:26:15.299 --> 02:26:17.260 important to say. I mean, if I'm looking at my 02:26:17.260 --> 02:26:19.379 phone for a brief second, it's because it's something 02:26:19.379 --> 02:26:22.000 relevant to what we are talking about. I want 02:26:22.000 --> 02:26:23.700 to send it to Jamie so he can pull it up on the 02:26:23.700 --> 02:26:26.579 screen. But I think it's one of the great benefits 02:26:26.579 --> 02:26:28.780 of having these long conversations with people 02:26:28.780 --> 02:26:31.579 on a podcast is that that's time where you're 02:26:31.579 --> 02:26:34.520 not staring at a fucking device. And most people 02:26:34.520 --> 02:26:38.420 lack that. So I've gotten this completely unexpected 02:26:38.420 --> 02:26:41.319 education in life and human beings and how they 02:26:41.319 --> 02:26:44.559 think and what drives them and just what makes 02:26:44.559 --> 02:26:50.760 them interesting. How does it impact – like you 02:26:50.760 --> 02:26:54.319 have two girls, right? Three. You have three 02:26:54.319 --> 02:26:57.100 girls. How does it impact sort of how you interact 02:26:57.100 --> 02:27:00.260 with them? You feel like you learn something 02:27:00.260 --> 02:27:02.040 and then you – Yeah, I'm a way more educated 02:27:02.040 --> 02:27:04.559 person than I ever was when I was younger. I 02:27:04.559 --> 02:27:08.420 just know more about humans. I know more about 02:27:08.420 --> 02:27:11.709 myself. I've just – You know, you're thinking 02:27:11.709 --> 02:27:14.450 and you're constantly thinking. So it's just 02:27:14.450 --> 02:27:17.069 adding to this database of understanding that 02:27:17.069 --> 02:27:19.590 you have about human beings and about just life 02:27:19.590 --> 02:27:23.129 in general and just education. And, you know, 02:27:23.190 --> 02:27:26.409 unfortunately, my kids are really smart. And 02:27:26.409 --> 02:27:28.930 so I have cool conversations with them about 02:27:28.930 --> 02:27:31.329 stuff. And, you know, one of my kids has this 02:27:31.329 --> 02:27:34.659 crazy recall. that my wife insists comes from 02:27:34.659 --> 02:27:37.360 me. It's nuts. Like, she can recall things about 02:27:37.360 --> 02:27:41.120 the Titanic and specifics about, like, the voyages 02:27:41.120 --> 02:27:43.840 because she got down this Titanic kick for a 02:27:43.840 --> 02:27:46.559 while, you know, and lately we've been talking 02:27:46.559 --> 02:27:49.760 about the Mongols because she's studying Genghis 02:27:49.760 --> 02:27:52.120 Khan in school, and so we had these long conversations 02:27:52.120 --> 02:27:55.959 about Mongols and what they did and, you know, 02:27:55.979 --> 02:27:57.579 I'm telling her some stuff that she doesn't know 02:27:57.579 --> 02:27:59.340 and she tells me some stuff that I didn't know. 02:27:59.399 --> 02:28:01.600 I'm like, whoa. How old is she? This one's 15. 02:28:02.379 --> 02:28:06.799 But – so it impacts my – not just my relationship 02:28:06.799 --> 02:28:09.319 with them but really my relationship with everybody 02:28:09.319 --> 02:28:13.799 in my life. And what's really hard is talking 02:28:13.799 --> 02:28:16.500 to people that aren't interested in anything 02:28:16.500 --> 02:28:19.840 and don't engage with all these different things. 02:28:19.979 --> 02:28:22.600 And then when you talk to them, it's like they're 02:28:22.600 --> 02:28:26.540 operating on this frequency that's like time 02:28:26.540 --> 02:28:31.350 and – And work and life has sort of ground down 02:28:31.350 --> 02:28:35.530 all their sensitivity and calloused all of their 02:28:35.530 --> 02:28:39.229 senses to the world or their thoughts of the 02:28:39.229 --> 02:28:42.090 world, their perspectives of the world. And they've 02:28:42.090 --> 02:28:44.389 developed these sort of placeholder opinions 02:28:44.389 --> 02:28:48.610 for things. And it's so awkward. And, you know, 02:28:48.649 --> 02:28:52.430 and over time, like, you know. Tony Robbins talked 02:28:52.430 --> 02:28:54.649 about this once, that if you make small changes 02:28:54.649 --> 02:28:57.229 in your life, like if you're both going in parallel 02:28:57.229 --> 02:29:00.110 lines, right, and then you make a small deviation, 02:29:00.209 --> 02:29:03.129 a few degrees to the right, over time, you'll 02:29:03.129 --> 02:29:05.829 be way over here where they're kind of on the 02:29:05.829 --> 02:29:10.340 same path. And that's what I find. in life that's 02:29:10.340 --> 02:29:11.940 weird and then I think about how many people 02:29:11.940 --> 02:29:14.079 don't have the opportunity to do that because 02:29:14.079 --> 02:29:16.659 they have a job that's like mundane and it's 02:29:16.659 --> 02:29:19.440 consuming and they're involved in it all day 02:29:19.440 --> 02:29:21.760 long when they get done they're exhausted and 02:29:21.760 --> 02:29:25.579 they never really satisfy their curiosity or 02:29:25.579 --> 02:29:29.399 encourage and engage with their curiosity foster 02:29:29.399 --> 02:29:34.159 it you know and it's what to me makes people 02:29:35.059 --> 02:29:37.180 fascinating when i talk to someone who's curious 02:29:37.180 --> 02:29:39.319 about things and it's really like and it went 02:29:39.319 --> 02:29:41.260 down a while i was curious so then i started 02:29:41.260 --> 02:29:43.420 researching and this is what i found out like 02:29:43.420 --> 02:29:46.399 that's the kind of person i want to talk to you 02:29:46.399 --> 02:29:49.299 know yeah it's really i mean i think it's also 02:29:49.299 --> 02:29:53.840 you know you're probably because it got big without 02:29:53.840 --> 02:29:56.979 a plan to get big and because i think you're 02:29:56.979 --> 02:30:02.200 the essence of it is wanting to express curiosity 02:30:02.200 --> 02:30:05.989 wanting to Take in information. How do you deal 02:30:05.989 --> 02:30:08.690 with the people who say like, oh, you know, you 02:30:08.690 --> 02:30:11.129 had so -and -so on. You should have asked them 02:30:11.129 --> 02:30:13.170 this or you should have done this. I don't know 02:30:13.170 --> 02:30:15.250 that they're saying that. Because you don't hear 02:30:15.250 --> 02:30:18.090 it. I don't pay attention. I gave up on that 02:30:18.090 --> 02:30:21.190 years ago. Because you used to follow. Yeah. 02:30:21.229 --> 02:30:23.229 And you realize like, oh, I'm at the will of 02:30:23.229 --> 02:30:24.829 other people's opinions constantly. And some 02:30:24.829 --> 02:30:26.409 of them aren't logical. And some of them are 02:30:26.409 --> 02:30:28.850 petty. And some of them are shitty. They're just 02:30:28.850 --> 02:30:31.239 shitty people. They're mean. Like why are you 02:30:31.239 --> 02:30:33.600 being mean for no reason? Like why are you being 02:30:33.600 --> 02:30:36.620 insulting for no reason? And a lot of it is jealousy. 02:30:36.739 --> 02:30:38.760 They're not getting enough attention. They think 02:30:38.760 --> 02:30:40.680 you're an idiot. Why are you getting so much 02:30:40.680 --> 02:30:42.579 attention? I'm brilliant. I should be getting 02:30:42.579 --> 02:30:44.579 more attention. There's a lot of that. There's 02:30:44.579 --> 02:30:46.739 a lot of ego involved. But there's a lot of like 02:30:46.739 --> 02:30:53.659 very – Should be nice. Like just people with 02:30:53.659 --> 02:30:56.059 shitty perspectives. And you don't want to engage 02:30:56.059 --> 02:30:58.059 with that. You don't want that in your head because 02:30:58.059 --> 02:31:00.020 I think that's contagious. And that's why people 02:31:00.020 --> 02:31:03.040 that are constantly surrounded by negative, shitty 02:31:03.040 --> 02:31:06.180 people, they develop negative, shitty tendencies. 02:31:06.379 --> 02:31:09.139 It's just we imitate our atmosphere, which is 02:31:09.139 --> 02:31:12.229 why like this idea of. Pulling yourself up by 02:31:12.229 --> 02:31:15.030 your bootstraps is so fucking crazy. When you're 02:31:15.030 --> 02:31:18.209 asking some kid whose dad's been in jail since 02:31:18.209 --> 02:31:21.610 he was three and lives in a crime -infested neighborhood 02:31:21.610 --> 02:31:24.649 and has 11 kids living in a one -bedroom apartment. 02:31:25.719 --> 02:31:27.760 And you're saying, well, how come you went to 02:31:27.760 --> 02:31:29.719 jail? Shut the fuck up, bitch. You would have 02:31:29.719 --> 02:31:32.540 went to jail too if you lived there. What we 02:31:32.540 --> 02:31:34.340 need to do is figure out why are these kids in 02:31:34.340 --> 02:31:36.979 this situation? Why are so many of our citizens, 02:31:37.239 --> 02:31:40.139 people of our community, stuck in these situations 02:31:40.139 --> 02:31:42.760 with no attention paid to it whatsoever? And 02:31:42.760 --> 02:31:44.799 then you're wondering why so many people commit 02:31:44.799 --> 02:31:46.579 crimes. You're wondering why your prisons are 02:31:46.579 --> 02:31:52.520 so full. When you engage with people that constantly 02:31:52.520 --> 02:31:55.479 have shitty perspectives, a little about... A 02:31:55.479 --> 02:31:58.920 little when you're young is good. But once you're 02:31:58.920 --> 02:32:01.219 – by the time you're like 19, 20, you know what 02:32:01.219 --> 02:32:03.940 an asshole is. You don't want assholes in your 02:32:03.940 --> 02:32:08.340 life. Avoid at all costs. And online, if you're 02:32:08.340 --> 02:32:10.819 engaging with people online, you're getting at 02:32:10.819 --> 02:32:12.899 least 10 percent assholes. It's like there's 02:32:12.899 --> 02:32:14.860 no way of avoiding it. So I don't pay attention. 02:32:14.860 --> 02:32:16.079 And it gets in your head. Yeah, it gets in your 02:32:16.079 --> 02:32:21.139 head. I am probably as critical, like logically 02:32:21.139 --> 02:32:23.260 critical, as anybody is ever going to be about 02:32:23.260 --> 02:32:27.079 me. And what I do and the way I do it and interviews 02:32:27.079 --> 02:32:30.719 that went well or didn't go well, I examine them. 02:32:31.020 --> 02:32:34.299 I think about it. When they're done, that one's 02:32:34.299 --> 02:32:36.639 like, I should have stopped them from talking 02:32:36.639 --> 02:32:38.260 about that because I should have said, wait, 02:32:38.399 --> 02:32:40.540 that doesn't make sense. You let people ramble 02:32:40.540 --> 02:32:42.680 a little bit too much and then they change subjects. 02:32:42.780 --> 02:32:44.860 You want to go back to it and then something 02:32:44.860 --> 02:32:48.100 else comes up and you lose. I should have really 02:32:48.100 --> 02:32:50.100 challenged that a little bit more. Or I should 02:32:50.100 --> 02:32:53.940 have done this or I should have done that. You're 02:32:53.940 --> 02:32:55.920 free balling. You don't know what I don't have 02:32:55.920 --> 02:32:59.600 any like questions. I know I'm gonna ask I just 02:32:59.600 --> 02:33:01.680 have an understanding of the subject that I let 02:33:01.680 --> 02:33:04.420 it play out and I think that's why it's good 02:33:04.420 --> 02:33:07.100 I just think when you listen to people when I 02:33:07.100 --> 02:33:11.239 know You grew up in ba -ba -ba you did this you 02:33:11.239 --> 02:33:13.139 did that it's like the same tone These are just 02:33:13.139 --> 02:33:15.159 questions then the person answers the question 02:33:15.159 --> 02:33:17.680 and then another question comes like you're not 02:33:17.680 --> 02:33:20.620 having a conversation And I don't think of them 02:33:20.620 --> 02:33:22.299 as interviews. I think of them as conversations 02:33:22.299 --> 02:33:25.239 and I think that's what I want to hear, so that's 02:33:25.239 --> 02:33:27.139 what I do. And if people are like, well, you 02:33:27.139 --> 02:33:28.500 should have done this, and ask them, it's like, 02:33:28.600 --> 02:33:30.780 no, you should go get a fucking podcast, bitch. 02:33:30.920 --> 02:33:34.239 Make your own podcast, and then get popular enough 02:33:34.239 --> 02:33:36.159 where you can get that person on, then you ask 02:33:36.159 --> 02:33:39.139 them that. I'm going to ask them what I ask them, 02:33:39.219 --> 02:33:42.100 and when I'm done, I'm done. That's it. Yeah. 02:33:42.180 --> 02:33:46.340 I mean, I do interviews for when I'm doing documentaries. 02:33:46.600 --> 02:33:48.819 I'll do interviews for seven, eight, nine hours 02:33:48.819 --> 02:33:51.219 at a time. Not that I suggest you do it, but... 02:33:51.959 --> 02:33:54.219 And the reason I do it is because I want to, 02:33:54.219 --> 02:33:57.360 like, converse. I want to really understand the 02:33:57.360 --> 02:33:59.260 other person. I want to give myself time to, 02:33:59.280 --> 02:34:02.440 like, really hear them out. And also, you know, 02:34:02.459 --> 02:34:04.260 to some extent the most interesting stuff comes 02:34:04.260 --> 02:34:07.639 out when everybody just feels comfortable and 02:34:07.639 --> 02:34:10.260 their defenses go down. Yeah. Yeah, Elon was 02:34:10.260 --> 02:34:11.860 talking about that. He's like, that's that last 02:34:11.860 --> 02:34:14.319 hour. The last hour you can really get them. 02:34:15.180 --> 02:34:18.260 Because it's hard for – especially if someone 02:34:18.260 --> 02:34:22.040 has an agenda. After a while, you're talking 02:34:22.040 --> 02:34:24.299 to them. The tendencies, the way they view the 02:34:24.299 --> 02:34:26.780 world comes out. If I really want to know how 02:34:26.780 --> 02:34:31.020 someone feels about love or life, I want to ask 02:34:31.020 --> 02:34:32.959 them how they got to where they are in life. 02:34:33.180 --> 02:34:36.659 How they became who they are. Give them a chance 02:34:36.659 --> 02:34:40.219 to brag. Give them a chance to inflate their 02:34:40.219 --> 02:34:45.639 accomplishments. Give them a chance to pat themselves 02:34:45.639 --> 02:34:48.440 on the back. Give them a chance to... Dismiss 02:34:48.440 --> 02:34:50.639 other people's accomplishments. Give them a chance. 02:34:50.700 --> 02:34:54.239 You'll find out who people are without even pressing 02:34:54.239 --> 02:34:56.799 them on certain things. No, they want to tell 02:34:56.799 --> 02:34:59.280 you who they are. They really do. And they also, 02:34:59.399 --> 02:35:03.219 like a lot of people, they have an agenda. They 02:35:03.219 --> 02:35:05.920 really want to project something to the world. 02:35:06.780 --> 02:35:08.319 And then there's people that don't, and those 02:35:08.319 --> 02:35:10.239 people are amazing. There's some people that 02:35:10.239 --> 02:35:12.159 come in that just open books. They're just like 02:35:12.159 --> 02:35:15.860 a mind, a curious person, just a person who followed 02:35:15.860 --> 02:35:18.979 a path, an artist, a singer, a comedian, a this, 02:35:18.979 --> 02:35:21.520 a that, an athlete, like whatever it is. Like 02:35:21.520 --> 02:35:24.819 what made you you? How did you get there? That's 02:35:24.819 --> 02:35:27.420 why I love comedy so much because, you know, 02:35:27.440 --> 02:35:29.840 just listen. There's a joke in Pumping Mics, 02:35:29.940 --> 02:35:33.799 this little series that we did with Jeff Ross 02:35:33.799 --> 02:35:38.059 and Dave Attell. I got to watch, you know, six 02:35:38.059 --> 02:35:42.219 versions of Dave, just incredible, telling, they're 02:35:42.219 --> 02:35:45.239 both great, but Dave telling the same joke like 02:35:45.239 --> 02:35:47.940 six different times. Right. Because we filmed 02:35:47.940 --> 02:35:50.540 it over like a long weekend and we did two shows 02:35:50.540 --> 02:35:53.840 a night at the cellar. And so he's got this line 02:35:53.840 --> 02:35:56.940 when he says, they're talking about like in memoriam, 02:35:56.940 --> 02:36:00.200 you know, people we lost. And they talk about 02:36:00.200 --> 02:36:05.059 Stephen Hawking. And Dave says, Yeah, Steve Hawking, 02:36:05.139 --> 02:36:08.500 the great astrophysicist, you know, we lost him. 02:36:08.760 --> 02:36:12.280 And Jeff says that. And Dave says, yeah, I knew 02:36:12.280 --> 02:36:13.639 something happened because my printer stopped 02:36:13.639 --> 02:36:18.500 working. And for some reason, like, this joke 02:36:18.500 --> 02:36:22.219 makes people – so many people laughed at this 02:36:22.219 --> 02:36:25.940 joke because it's so insanely, like, impulsive, 02:36:25.959 --> 02:36:28.819 right? I knew that Stephen – I knew Stephen Hawking 02:36:28.819 --> 02:36:30.879 died because my printer stopped working. And 02:36:30.879 --> 02:36:33.370 the next night – He did a different version of 02:36:33.370 --> 02:36:35.110 it where he said, oh, because my computer stopped 02:36:35.110 --> 02:36:38.350 working and it got no laughs at all. And just 02:36:38.350 --> 02:36:42.110 being able to see the spontaneity and like the 02:36:42.110 --> 02:36:45.049 unlocked quality of Dave's mind. The tweaking 02:36:45.049 --> 02:36:48.629 of the joke. But also just like the freedom. 02:36:48.750 --> 02:36:50.729 Right. Which may be some some of that for some 02:36:50.729 --> 02:36:55.149 people come being stoned. Some people. But I 02:36:55.149 --> 02:36:58.229 see like the feeling like in your comedy special, 02:36:58.370 --> 02:37:00.969 the feeling that that. That it's coming in the 02:37:00.969 --> 02:37:02.530 moment. Even though I know a lot of those things 02:37:02.530 --> 02:37:04.430 are things that you've been thinking about talking 02:37:04.430 --> 02:37:07.129 about and honing over a lot of years. It's the 02:37:07.129 --> 02:37:10.229 moment when it feels like it's coming naturally. 02:37:11.110 --> 02:37:14.590 That's where like the biggest laughs are. It's 02:37:14.590 --> 02:37:16.969 also like where the biggest connection, the biggest 02:37:16.969 --> 02:37:18.930 human connection is. Yeah, so the dance is. The 02:37:18.930 --> 02:37:21.209 dance is like staying in the moment no matter 02:37:21.209 --> 02:37:23.110 how many times you've talked about a subject. 02:37:23.309 --> 02:37:25.610 Don't think about that. Think about the actual 02:37:25.610 --> 02:37:28.780 subject. You're basically doing like a form of 02:37:28.780 --> 02:37:32.659 hypnosis. You're leading people to think the 02:37:32.659 --> 02:37:35.559 way your mind is working. And the only way you 02:37:35.559 --> 02:37:37.159 could do that is if your mind is actually thinking 02:37:37.159 --> 02:37:38.659 that way. If you're thinking about some other 02:37:38.659 --> 02:37:40.979 stuff, for some reason, even if you're saying 02:37:40.979 --> 02:37:43.379 the words the exact same way, they can smell 02:37:43.379 --> 02:37:45.840 it on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They can tell. Yeah, 02:37:46.120 --> 02:37:49.899 yeah. Well, hey, man. um thank you for everything 02:37:49.899 --> 02:37:52.239 you've done thank you for the jinx and thank 02:37:52.239 --> 02:37:54.639 you for the alabama solution because it's really 02:37:54.639 --> 02:37:58.159 awesome and i really hope that um through that 02:37:58.159 --> 02:38:03.040 film a lot of people get outraged and the right 02:38:03.040 --> 02:38:06.629 people and a lot enough attention gets put on 02:38:06.629 --> 02:38:09.209 it where you force people to do something about 02:38:09.209 --> 02:38:11.329 it. And I don't think people have any idea how 02:38:11.329 --> 02:38:13.090 bad these fucking prisons are until they see 02:38:13.090 --> 02:38:15.790 that. Yeah. And I think, um, those contraband 02:38:15.790 --> 02:38:18.229 phones and what those inmates have done and, 02:38:18.270 --> 02:38:20.850 and, and the inmates themselves through the way 02:38:20.850 --> 02:38:23.129 they conduct themselves. And, and you, when you 02:38:23.129 --> 02:38:25.850 could see how intelligent these people are and, 02:38:25.889 --> 02:38:29.129 you know, and that you realize like, this is 02:38:29.129 --> 02:38:32.450 not right. None of this is right. This is, I 02:38:32.450 --> 02:38:35.280 mean, on the positive side, I would say, Just 02:38:35.280 --> 02:38:37.780 so we don't end on a really negative note, the 02:38:37.780 --> 02:38:43.260 film has had an impact in Alabama. It's having 02:38:43.260 --> 02:38:47.440 an impact in Alabama already. And there are incredible 02:38:47.440 --> 02:38:49.719 demonstrations that have been happening. There's 02:38:49.719 --> 02:38:51.559 actually – I don't know if you have it. There's 02:38:51.559 --> 02:38:53.440 a still of this if you want to look at it. But 02:38:53.440 --> 02:38:56.139 there's hundreds of people showed up on the steps 02:38:56.139 --> 02:38:59.639 of the Capitol, people really showing up with 02:38:59.639 --> 02:39:03.239 the – intention of showing their loved ones being 02:39:03.239 --> 02:39:05.700 there and saying, this is really happening, and 02:39:05.700 --> 02:39:08.780 giving the rest of the public permission to understand 02:39:08.780 --> 02:39:11.180 that this is, you know, 45 % of Americans have 02:39:11.180 --> 02:39:15.139 had an incarcerated relative or been incarcerated. 02:39:15.399 --> 02:39:18.079 This is an infection. This is happening in many, 02:39:18.139 --> 02:39:21.559 many, many places. So for us, the film has been 02:39:21.559 --> 02:39:23.840 unlocking that, giving people a feeling that 02:39:23.840 --> 02:39:26.620 they're not alone, that they don't have to be 02:39:26.620 --> 02:39:30.399 ashamed of having somebody. So, you know, these 02:39:30.399 --> 02:39:32.920 are people who've seen the film who've decided 02:39:32.920 --> 02:39:35.399 that they want to express themselves. And this 02:39:35.399 --> 02:39:38.159 is happening more and more. And we just saw there 02:39:38.159 --> 02:39:40.260 was a bipartisan bill that was just introduced 02:39:40.260 --> 02:39:44.579 by Senator Larry Stutz, who's a Republican senator, 02:39:44.860 --> 02:39:49.040 who said he saw the film. He couldn't unsee it. 02:39:49.239 --> 02:39:51.920 And he said this is not – he wrote an op -ed 02:39:51.920 --> 02:39:54.719 about it not being an example of Christian values. 02:39:56.219 --> 02:39:59.079 He introduced this bipartisan bill for prison 02:39:59.079 --> 02:40:01.360 oversight, which is a real bill. It's not a bullshit 02:40:01.360 --> 02:40:03.459 bill. It's a real bill about how you take the 02:40:03.459 --> 02:40:05.120 investigations because you saw in the film the 02:40:05.120 --> 02:40:07.260 investigations are run by the same department 02:40:07.260 --> 02:40:11.840 that commits the crimes. So I think we're seeing 02:40:11.840 --> 02:40:15.799 a lot of positive action as a result of the film. 02:40:15.860 --> 02:40:17.780 And I think that's what transparency is all about 02:40:17.780 --> 02:40:21.420 is if the public can see it. And I appreciate 02:40:21.420 --> 02:40:25.719 your talking about this and having this. be in 02:40:25.719 --> 02:40:28.159 the public conversation because it's really important. 02:40:28.239 --> 02:40:31.280 If people see it, they're not happy about it. 02:40:31.319 --> 02:40:34.299 They understand that something more humane needs 02:40:34.299 --> 02:40:36.739 to be done. Yeah, I think universally. I don't 02:40:36.739 --> 02:40:38.739 think anybody could watch that and not think 02:40:38.739 --> 02:40:40.940 something should be done. So thank you. Really 02:40:40.940 --> 02:40:42.819 appreciate it. Thanks for being here. Enjoy. 02:40:43.340 --> 02:40:44.100 Bye, everybody.