WEBVTT

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Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan

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Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan Podcast by

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night. All day. What's up, Bill? How you doing,

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Joe? Good to see you, bro. Good to see you. This

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might be one of the coolest things anybody's

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ever given me. So you gave me this knife. Explain

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all this. All right. So, I mean, there's a larger

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explanatory reason behind this. My brother and

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I grew up. My father died when I was five. My

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brother and I grew up doing these things called

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rendezvous. Have you ever heard of them? In what

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way? What is a rendezvous? So there you go. So

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what a rendezvous is, is it's not, you know,

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you go to those like, I don't even know what

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they're called, but people do like reenactments.

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Oh, okay. Like Civil War reenactments? It's not

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like that. So that's the closest thing, approximation

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to probably what it is. You get invited to them

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or these days are easier to get to. But my stepfather,

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the guy my mother remarried. Brought us to them.

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All you do is camp, but you're only allowed to

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camp and no one comes to the camp or sometimes

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they might have people at the end. But while

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you're in the camp, everything in the camp has

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to be 1840 or prior. So there can be no modern

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appurtenances, nothing like a refrigerator or

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nothing like that. 1840. Why that year? At the

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end of the fur trapping. That was considered

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like Jeremiah Johnson time, like peak fur trapping.

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So there's people, you know, they dress like

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either. you know, revolutionary, like American

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revolutionaries, or they dress like mountain

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men, or they dress like Indians. How'd you guys

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dress? Mountain men. So while we're there, you

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learn all kinds of stuff while you're reenacting.

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Like I learned how to brain tan hides. I learned

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how to traditionally art or do traditional archery,

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stuff like that. So anyway, this knife was a

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knife I had actually started working on with

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my brother a while ago. I do more of like the

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brain tanning. And when you say brain tanning,

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you talk about using brains to tan animal hides,

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right? Yes, yes. Using animal brains. Yeah. What

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does brains do? Why does brains work? It softens

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the leather in a natural way. And what's cool

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about it is every animal, no matter what animal

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you kill, has the exact amount of brain needed

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in order to tan the hide. So you don't need any

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additional, like people use egg yolks or mayonnaise

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or something like that. All you do is you take

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the brain out of the cavity, you grind it up,

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you mix it into some water, and then after you've...

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After you've cleaned the leather and you've scraped

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it clean, you stretch it. I usually use like

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a dull shovel. You stretch it over the dull shovel

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and then you soak it in the brain water mixture.

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And then you just keep repeating that pattern.

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And the leather gets like a really nice soft

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feel to it. What is it about the brain? Is it

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the fat? It breaks down the leather. I'm not

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sure if it's the fat or I haven't gotten that

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deep into it But it breaks down the leather and

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just makes it feel really soft really nice. So

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anyway this knife here I started I killed that

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bear so the jaw is made out of two Bear jaws

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or out of one bear jock split in half so That

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was a bear. I killed in Canada in 2017. It was

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my biggest black black bear and So we split the

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job put that together It's Irish linen threading.

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Then that's a knife that my brother picked up

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that was from 1860. It was totally rusted. We

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had to grind it back or he had to grind it back

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down. And then the sheath is traditional. The

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cool thing about doing rendezvous and the cool

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thing about this is you could have a DeLorean

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and drop that in 1840 and somebody would pick

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it up and think it was made yesterday. And so

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everything on there has been done traditionally

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from the quilling on the beadwork is made from

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porcupine quills. The backing is buffalo brain

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tan. And then the front is beaver hide or beaver

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tail. I'm sorry. And then the sides are horse

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and turkey hair hanging off of it. And these

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are bear teeth? And those are bear teeth, yep.

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From the same bear. So when I was thinking about

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what I was, because I wanted to give you something

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for inviting me on because it's still a shock

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to me that you did it. Even though we've been

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talking for so long, I just never imagined a

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scenario where you'd want to have me on here.

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Well, you're an interesting dude. I thought,

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what could I give this guy that, you know, money

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or people or whatever couldn't get you? And so

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I thought this is the right thing to do. So it

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went from a me project to a you project. And

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my brother Aaron. helped me out with it tremendously.

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So how did you find this knife from the 1860s?

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Well, he found it. My brother is even more esoteric

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and odd than I am, believe it or not. And he

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collects this kind of stuff. I mean, the guy

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who dated it said 1860 to 1890 is what they figured.

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And you can tell by the way that like around

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the hilt and the way that it's the pitting on

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it and stuff like that and the way that it was

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made that it fits that era. I mean, it could

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have been somebody redid it in 1900, but it's

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definitely that old. The type of steel and the

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way that it was worked and the way that it is

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around the hilt around the bottom there. Wow.

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And so it's at least, you know, 130, 140, but

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most likely 160, 170. It actually fits my hand

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perfect. Yeah. So that's also something my brother

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and I talked about, about how long it was going

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to be. And we made some educated guesses. put

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it all together so yeah i mean like i said not

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something you can just go pick up somewhere or

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something that will you know hopefully mean something

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not saying it's practical like it's not something

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you'd be gutting an elk out with but um well

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if we get attacked by zombies in the studio it's

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a good thing to have on the desk yeah i mean

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if you're gonna make a last stand you know that's

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a pretty good that's a pretty good knife to make

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your last stand with it's a good way to go out

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yeah exactly that's awesome man yeah so the rendezvous

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um We did those from... How long do they last?

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They vary from a week, and then some go up to

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three weeks. And what do you do for food while

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you're out there? So inside of your lodge...

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So there's two types of rendezvous. At most rendezvous

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inside of your lodge, you can have a cooler.

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As long as it doesn't leave the lodge. So I have

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like a 20 foot teepee that I take to these things.

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And inside of my teepee, you can have a cooler

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and some modern appurtenances. Did they have

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any kind of coolers in the 1800s? I mean, they

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had ice boxes and like steel ice boxes and that

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type of thing, but nothing like we have today.

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You know, stuff was getting dug out, buried in

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the ground or put into the ground, like cool

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areas of the ground or digouts. And they dried

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everything. So pemmican would have been the,

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you know, everyday. thing to eat that's just

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dried so did you bring your own food or did you

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have to hunt for food So you bring your own food,

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but there are other rendezvous that are kind

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of invite only. And I don't even think a lot

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of people who do rendezvous knew about these.

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But there's ones that I think they're called.

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I think I might be speaking out of school. Somebody

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might send me an email after this, but I'm going

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to talk about it anyway because I never got read

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the right act. They're called juried. I think

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they called them juried Southerns. And I've only

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been to one of those. And that's where everything

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in the camp has to be pre -1840. You meet down

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in the parking lot. You put everything on the

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back of a mule. When I did mine, it was up in

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the... I think it was the Bighorns. So, you know,

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you talk to a rancher, get everything packed

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up. You go into the back of the Bighorns, and

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everything in camp has to be pre -1840, as close

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as it can get. They'll even look at your stitching

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and say, oh, that was sewn with a sewing machine.

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You've got to take that off. And it's always

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these weird, like, eccentric history teachers

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that run them, like guys who. you know, uh, teaches

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history at Berkeley or something like that. There's

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other places and they just really enjoy living

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like this. And at those ones, if they're in season,

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you can hunt whatever's in season. You're hunting

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with traditional archery and it's really good

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for kids. Like the internet wasn't a problem

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as much when I was a kid. I was certainly into

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computers. I have been since I was a child, but

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you could just detach. Everyone's running around

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crazy. You're sitting around the campfire at

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night. People are singing songs on the guitar.

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You're learning how to do things like this. You're

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learning how to brain tan. You're learning how

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to live traditionally. And it's an eccentric

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cult kind of. It's not a cult. It's an eccentric

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group of people. It's a lot of fun. People take

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it very seriously. There's more advertising surrounding

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it now than there used to be because numbers

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are kind of dwindling. But I did my last one

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last year with my brother. So if you go on my

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Instagram, there's a picture of my brother, my

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son and I doing, I think, our second rendezvous

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together. And we're just dressed like, you know,

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I've actually got an awesome war shirt. I can

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show you the picture. I've got an awesome war

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shirt that a friend of mine went to war with.

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He was half Native American. His grandfather

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was Ojibwe or something, Chippewa, something

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like that. And he was. I don't remember what

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his role was, but anyway, we deployed to Iraq

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together, and his grandpa made me this war shirt.

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Oh, there, you found it. Jamie? He pulled it

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up. That's my lodge. How much do you enjoy a

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shower after you get out of here? I mean, as

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long as you keep, you know, they have showers

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in camp. They've got a showering area where it's

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just like pallets. That's the inside of my lodge.

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So there's a cooler at this one. This is not

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a juried rendezvous. And so you can shower while

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you're in. Some of them, they call them hooters.

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They'll be like a latrine in a shower area in

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camp. But also like some of them, I don't do

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it at all. This is wild. And so there's no reenacting.

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Like there's not like civilians walking around.

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It's not like Renaissance. Yeah, exactly. It's

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just more like I want to act like it's 1840 for

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a couple of weeks and not look at my phone one

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time and not worry about the news. It's amazing

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after a week here, you really forget about the

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world. And you don't even know you're supposed

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to be stressed out about things. You're just

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out there doing your thing for a couple of weeks.

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And you just cook over open fire. Everything

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gets done traditionally that way. And did you

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bring your own meat? Yeah, you bring your own

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meat and stuff in the cooler. And then there's

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also cooking classes where they teach you all

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the recipes to do with a Dutch oven, like an

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old cast iron oven. They do gambling at nights.

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So you'll walk into like a huge, they call them

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marquees, but it's like a huge 100 -foot square

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lodge. There'll be three gambling tables in there,

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girls in like the low -cut shirts and dealing

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cards and smoking cigars and just having an amazing

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time. And you go by camp names while you're in

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there. Nobody uses their real name. Well, some

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people use their real name. I'd say 60 % of people

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don't use their real names. What was your camp

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name? This is embarrassing. It should be. Yeah.

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So I got my camp name. I got christened with

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my camp name in the big horns when I was 14 or

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13. And it was talks a lot. Talks a lot. Yeah.

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And Sue, it was pronounced Iota. Just because

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you talk a lot? When I was a kid, I talked a

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lot. Actually, as an adult, I don't talk that

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much unless I know you. But as a kid, I would

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never shut up. I had really bad ADHD. They kind

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of diagnosed me with having some low -level version

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of Asperger's. And I was a rapscallion in class.

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Just never shut up, never listened, never did

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anything. Those are the people that are the most

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fun. Well, they didn't enjoy me in high school

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or in grade school. I probably would have been

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your friend. But, yeah, they called me Iota.

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And, you know, we got christened. And it was,

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you know, it's a... One of the things we're kind

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of missing in culture today or something that

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I'm trying to reinvigorate, especially with my

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son and with other young men that I run into

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is kind of like coming of age rights. Yeah. Something

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to say, you're a man and I'm going to start treating

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like a man from this moment forward. Like, you

00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:36.759
know, what does that there should be structure

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to that. You know, we're tribal. And it's important

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to me. So I think that is really something that's

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missing from society. I think that I used to

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think it was silly when I was young. And then

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as I got older, I realized, oh, I went through

00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:53.379
that. I became a black belt and I started fighting.

00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:55.960
And you had a group of men telling you, you're

00:11:55.960 --> 00:11:57.440
at this level. We're going to treat you like

00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:59.440
that. If you fall from grace, we're going to

00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.980
remind you right away. And we just don't do that

00:12:02.980 --> 00:12:05.000
with young men. And we have a society now where

00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.019
young men act like young men until they're 45

00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:09.899
or 50 or 60. And sometimes never stop. Yeah.

00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:13.659
And, you know, women, nature imposes itself on

00:12:13.659 --> 00:12:16.080
women. They become fertile. They're able to have

00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.059
babies. And they've got to seek security or find

00:12:20.059 --> 00:12:22.039
a husband or a really good job that will supplement

00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:24.460
whatever a husband would provide. And they've

00:12:24.460 --> 00:12:26.460
got to start acting like a woman, whereas men

00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:28.679
can sit in a basement. You know, and it becomes

00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.000
very dangerous, especially men that never have

00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:33.820
children. Yeah. They they're perpetual children.

00:12:33.899 --> 00:12:36.179
Yeah. And if you don't impose nature on yourself

00:12:36.179 --> 00:12:38.340
by undergoing those types of rights and understanding

00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:40.700
what it means to become a man, nature will impose

00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:42.679
itself on you by either a you're never going

00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:44.299
to have children and therefore you're dead forever

00:12:44.299 --> 00:12:47.720
or B, it will kill you because you're fat and

00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:49.500
in your mom's basement, you get diabetes, the

00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:52.100
foot chopped off and you're 35. And, you know,

00:12:52.100 --> 00:12:55.240
we just don't tell men we don't have a the military

00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:59.529
did it for me. I had really put off responsibility

00:12:59.529 --> 00:13:03.509
or seeking meaning or any of those things until

00:13:03.509 --> 00:13:05.789
I was in the military. And like I said, my father

00:13:05.789 --> 00:13:07.769
died when I was five. So I really had no central

00:13:07.769 --> 00:13:10.570
male authority until I was about 13 or 14 when

00:13:10.570 --> 00:13:15.269
I met this guy, Steve. And he kind of initiated

00:13:15.269 --> 00:13:17.850
some of those rights for me and held me to account.

00:13:18.210 --> 00:13:20.110
But it was really the military, which was a.

00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.679
turning point for me where there was a standard

00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:26.360
and I was expected to hold it. I think there's

00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:28.580
a reason why most ancient cultures and a lot

00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:30.840
of ancient religions have these rites of passages

00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:34.240
where you are like now officially, officially

00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.679
a man. Officially, you know, you're responsible.

00:13:38.179 --> 00:13:40.639
You have to think of yourself as a different

00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.059
thing now. Whereas if you leave it up to your

00:13:43.059 --> 00:13:47.779
own decision, men sort of... dwindle into this

00:13:47.779 --> 00:13:50.360
perpetual state of childhood yep and it's not

00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:52.580
about you anymore it's about other people like

00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:54.779
that that for me having children i've got four

00:13:54.779 --> 00:13:59.000
kids um really you know the military was kind

00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.720
of the first inkling of responsibility but then

00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:03.580
having children and realizing this isn't about

00:14:03.580 --> 00:14:05.519
me at all right and i need to be willing to break

00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.179
my back for these people who depend on me um

00:14:08.179 --> 00:14:10.899
there's this weird second primal feeling that

00:14:10.899 --> 00:14:12.960
you know you're responsible for these like very

00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:16.129
vulnerable little people that you love more than

00:14:16.129 --> 00:14:18.669
life itself. It just changes everything. It just

00:14:18.669 --> 00:14:21.149
kicks you into gear. But for some people, it

00:14:21.149 --> 00:14:24.190
doesn't. Some people that are so stuck in that

00:14:24.190 --> 00:14:26.889
perpetual childhood thing, they just wind up

00:14:26.889 --> 00:14:28.590
deciding it's too much of a drag and they get

00:14:28.590 --> 00:14:31.789
divorced. And then they fuck up the kids. Yeah.

00:14:32.950 --> 00:14:35.070
God, we have so many rabbit holes we could go

00:14:35.070 --> 00:14:38.990
down on this. But I mean, it was, you know, growing

00:14:38.990 --> 00:14:42.289
up in the 80s and the early 90s, it was really

00:14:42.289 --> 00:14:45.669
like a divorce culture. And I obviously understand

00:14:45.669 --> 00:14:47.710
that if you're in a bad relationship or an abusive

00:14:47.710 --> 00:14:49.990
relationship or, you know, there's certainly

00:14:49.990 --> 00:14:52.190
there's a threshold where marriage should dissolve.

00:14:52.370 --> 00:14:55.750
No question. But I kind of feel like it are the

00:14:55.750 --> 00:14:58.210
central thrust of a lot of culture at that time

00:14:58.210 --> 00:15:00.610
was about like divorce or not getting married

00:15:00.610 --> 00:15:03.009
or, you know. discovering yourself and that type

00:15:03.009 --> 00:15:04.690
of thing, which in some ways is good. There's

00:15:04.690 --> 00:15:06.889
goodness there. But when it becomes a central

00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:08.830
thrust or a central narrative and divorce becomes

00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:12.070
very easy or it's happening everywhere, it's

00:15:12.070 --> 00:15:14.169
super normalized and it's normalized. It's super

00:15:14.169 --> 00:15:15.850
destructive. Children are the ones who suffer

00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:17.509
the most on it. And I think the data is clear

00:15:17.509 --> 00:15:20.110
on that. When you look at, you know, single parent

00:15:20.110 --> 00:15:22.330
homes or no parent homes or being raised, you

00:15:22.330 --> 00:15:25.190
know, without an authority or an abusive step

00:15:25.190 --> 00:15:27.649
person or abuses. And that is, you know, when

00:15:27.649 --> 00:15:29.730
you look up the stats on that, like remarriage

00:15:29.730 --> 00:15:32.690
and having a new family. Like that becomes the

00:15:32.690 --> 00:15:35.370
single most likely vector of abuse in a young

00:15:35.370 --> 00:15:38.289
child's life is that new person, right? Because

00:15:38.289 --> 00:15:40.090
now they're raising someone else's kid or whatever.

00:15:41.289 --> 00:15:44.950
I mean, that's in every old movie, the evil stepmother,

00:15:45.009 --> 00:15:48.509
you know, or evil stepfather. But in the old

00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:50.389
movies, it's always the stepmother that abuses

00:15:50.389 --> 00:15:56.659
the girl. Yes. And so, you know, I kind of. I

00:15:56.659 --> 00:15:58.779
kind of resented that part of that time that

00:15:58.779 --> 00:16:02.019
culture was I shouldn't say when I was a child

00:16:02.019 --> 00:16:03.440
I should say as I got older because I wasn't

00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.960
a single mom home and the guy that my mother

00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.179
remarried right after my father died was abusive

00:16:09.179 --> 00:16:12.480
and you know he really got hard on my younger

00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.200
brother and you know my mother moved us out almost

00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.440
immediately but when I re -examined that time

00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.419
it really was you know I don't know how to describe

00:16:22.419 --> 00:16:25.759
it but you know there are no rules when it comes

00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.820
to relationships and family and every family

00:16:28.820 --> 00:16:30.919
special in particular in its own way. And they

00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:32.940
all need to be venerated. And there's of course,

00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:34.580
some truth to that. We shouldn't deride someone

00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.019
because they come from a broken family, but we

00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:39.120
shouldn't elevate it. Like it's at the same level

00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.740
as a unified family. Um, and, and that's a tricky

00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:46.000
line to, to walk, but also the people who are

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:47.639
making those movies and that culture came from

00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.019
the fifties and sixties where divorce was just

00:16:50.019 --> 00:16:53.299
not in the cards. And so that was a, you know,

00:16:53.299 --> 00:16:56.279
Hook's law, as you, bend any object, it wants

00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.220
to return back to its natural state. And Hooke's

00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:01.559
Law kind of played there where nobody could get

00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.980
divorced in the 40s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.059
And then you had the baby boomers who kind of

00:17:06.059 --> 00:17:08.680
culturally said, you know, actually, it's not

00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.880
as bad as we think, but then it overcorrected.

00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:13.519
And then it became kind of part of that cultural

00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:17.220
zeitgeist. That's kind of what humans do, right?

00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.799
We always overcorrect. Yeah, we do. Yeah, we

00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.519
go in one direction until we realize it's destructive,

00:17:22.660 --> 00:17:24.779
and then we overcorrect until we realize that's

00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:28.069
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I would say this isn't a political thing. This

00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:44.349
is just the reality of it. That's mostly what

00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:47.460
makes me conservative in nature. is i agree systems

00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:49.380
need to change but they need to change slowly

00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:52.420
and pragmatically so we because you know any

00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:55.859
social um any social scientist worth their salt

00:18:55.859 --> 00:18:58.900
will know a social experiment almost never has

00:18:58.900 --> 00:19:00.940
the outcome that we thought it was going to have

00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:03.519
in other words we thought doing something to

00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.779
society would form society this way but almost

00:19:05.779 --> 00:19:08.039
has the the inverse the anti -pattern like we

00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.119
talked about before and almost ends up propagating

00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:15.359
itself and so that makes me i'm still a proponent

00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.319
for change but it should be slow and and thought

00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.740
out and and done in pockets first yeah kind of

00:19:22.740 --> 00:19:25.099
you know federalism let's do little changes here

00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:27.460
let's let california be crazy for a while and

00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:29.680
see how that works out for them but let's not

00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.380
nationalize the craziness let's learn from what

00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:34.779
they learn there and there'll be goodness you

00:19:34.779 --> 00:19:36.900
know hot baristas that make great coffee and

00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:40.220
cool art and let's take those parts but how about

00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:43.299
the rampant homeless let's find out what caused

00:19:43.299 --> 00:19:46.920
that and and solve for that and you know that

00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.819
was kind of the founders intent with federalism

00:19:48.819 --> 00:19:51.019
they're really federalist minded state minded

00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:53.839
and there's you know even for that being as 250

00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.920
years ago there's a profound amount of profanity

00:19:56.920 --> 00:19:59.640
in that like let's change things slowly and let

00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.519
social experiments take place and adopt the best

00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.259
parts of those things and then integrate them

00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:07.319
to the culture overall as we move along but you

00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:08.799
know let's not throw the baby out with the bath

00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.200
water yeah I think In this country, one of the

00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.339
primary problems that people have is a profound

00:20:15.339 --> 00:20:18.240
lack of respect for discipline and how important

00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.099
discipline is for your life. And discipline is

00:20:21.099 --> 00:20:24.920
associated with conservatism. And because of

00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:27.579
that, like a lot of people think that I'm, I

00:20:27.579 --> 00:20:31.390
don't think I'm anything. I think I have. politically

00:20:31.390 --> 00:20:34.049
or ideologically, I have a lot of everything

00:20:34.049 --> 00:20:36.750
in me. I don't think I identify with one side

00:20:36.750 --> 00:20:39.390
or another. But if one thing that I agree with

00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:41.670
conservative people on, conservative people lend

00:20:41.670 --> 00:20:44.410
more towards the importance of discipline, hard

00:20:44.410 --> 00:20:48.180
work, discipline. Don't complain. Get things

00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:50.819
done. Deal with the hand that you've been dealt

00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:54.220
with and just sort it out and get to work. Don't

00:20:54.220 --> 00:20:56.660
cry. Don't look for other people to save you.

00:20:56.700 --> 00:21:00.720
They're not going to. And this is not something

00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.420
that's celebrated in society. It's thought of

00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:06.900
as a cruelty that if you say that you need discipline,

00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.700
that you're not treating these people that are

00:21:09.700 --> 00:21:12.500
victims of circumstance with the proper respect

00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:15.960
or with the proper empathy. I think a certain

00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.000
amount of empathy is probably not so good for

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.799
you at a certain point in time. There comes a

00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:21.680
point in time where you're letting people wallow

00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.160
in their bullshit and just make excuses for why

00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.220
they're not getting anything done. And in that

00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:29.500
sense, I think California is – that is a giant

00:21:29.500 --> 00:21:31.599
part of what's wrong with California. What's

00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:33.380
wrong with California when it comes to crime?

00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.640
What's wrong with California? The way they address

00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:40.220
crime and the way they address homelessness and

00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:41.799
all these issues that they have, they don't put

00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:43.759
their foot down. At a certain point in time,

00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:46.170
you've got to realize like – What Gad Saad calls

00:21:46.170 --> 00:21:49.569
suicidal empathy. Society can suffer from suicidal

00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:51.809
empathy. And at a certain point in time, you

00:21:51.809 --> 00:21:53.650
got to enforce rules and you got to make it so

00:21:53.650 --> 00:21:55.349
that people have to get their shit together.

00:21:55.710 --> 00:21:58.509
Yeah. And that suicidal empathy becomes a way

00:21:58.509 --> 00:22:00.430
for the person who's imposing it on someone else

00:22:00.430 --> 00:22:02.490
to feel good about themselves, which makes it

00:22:02.490 --> 00:22:06.049
even trickier and even more insidious because

00:22:06.049 --> 00:22:09.490
they're feeling good from the weaponization of

00:22:09.490 --> 00:22:15.619
other people's lot in life. The thing about that

00:22:15.619 --> 00:22:17.799
is none of the rules that you're going to impose,

00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.880
especially as a legislator or as somebody in

00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.200
a think tank, you'll never feel the repercussions

00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:25.460
of them. You'll never have to actually deal with

00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:27.259
it day to day. You're just imposing it on someone

00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:30.140
else and saying, I better understand the structure

00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:33.460
of reality and the fabric of the world. And you

00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:35.740
can't help but be this way. It's the system that's

00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:38.140
done this to you. So let me give you pittance

00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:40.839
that I'm going to take from someone else. And

00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.339
and that makes me benevolent. I get to feel good

00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:45.299
about that. That's a giant part of government

00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:47.440
for sure. That's a giant part of what's the problem

00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:49.960
with like liberal governments. Liberal governments

00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:54.900
should they should get paid based on whether

00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:59.140
or not the city does better. or worse financially

00:22:59.140 --> 00:23:02.180
than when they were in office. If their policies

00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:06.700
lead to greater domestic production of goods

00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:10.079
and services and GDP does better and everything

00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:12.599
does better, then you should get paid more. If

00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:14.720
more real estate sales, more people are making

00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.059
more money, medium income raises, less homeless

00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:19.779
people, you should get paid more. And you should

00:23:19.779 --> 00:23:22.400
get paid less if homelessness goes up, if crime

00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.539
goes up, if there's more destruction, if there's

00:23:25.539 --> 00:23:29.059
more assaults and home invasions. You should

00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:32.160
get paid less. You're doing a shitty job. And

00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.539
if you did that, I think they would impose laws

00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:37.660
that made it safer and healthier and made it

00:23:37.660 --> 00:23:40.980
better for society. Yeah. And then they would

00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:43.140
just inevitably change the ways that we track

00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:45.359
and measure those things. And pay themselves

00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.019
more. Well, they shouldn't have the opportunity

00:23:47.019 --> 00:23:49.299
to do that. Then you need some sort of an oversight.

00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:51.619
I'm being cynical. You're right, though. You're

00:23:51.619 --> 00:23:53.140
right to be cynical because that's what they

00:23:53.140 --> 00:23:55.240
do about everything. Someone was explaining to

00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:59.980
me yesterday that one of the problems with cleaning

00:23:59.980 --> 00:24:03.940
up fraud is that fraud is responsible for a giant

00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:07.079
percentage of GDP. And if you have hundreds of

00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:09.259
billions of dollars of fraud in this country

00:24:09.259 --> 00:24:13.200
and you eliminated that, you actually lower GDP.

00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:17.259
Because you actually lower the amount of money

00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:20.019
that's in circulation. That's interesting. I've

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:21.900
never thought about that before. He was explaining

00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:24.259
to me and I was like, oh my God, that is crazy

00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:27.640
that a giant percentage of our GDP is fraud.

00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:30.220
And if that was somehow or another eliminated,

00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:33.140
it'd be like one of the things that they do when

00:24:33.140 --> 00:24:36.680
they raise jobs, like they increase GDP. We've

00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:41.920
added 200 ,000 jobs to the market. What are those

00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.369
jobs? Like, what are those jobs? Are these government

00:24:44.369 --> 00:24:46.970
jobs? Because the government is a giant percentage

00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:50.269
of our GDP. Government jobs. It's way bigger

00:24:50.269 --> 00:24:52.529
than it should be. Way bigger. And those jobs,

00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:55.589
a lot of them are bullshit and waste. A lot of

00:24:55.589 --> 00:24:57.450
them. Yeah. You know, and that was some of the

00:24:57.450 --> 00:24:59.589
stuff that was uncovered during Doge. You know,

00:24:59.589 --> 00:25:01.490
the limited amount of access that Doge had to

00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:04.789
it. Just the... beginning of it where you got

00:25:04.789 --> 00:25:07.470
to see the curtain pulled back and get to see

00:25:07.470 --> 00:25:10.829
exposure of so many of these fraudulent supposedly

00:25:10.829 --> 00:25:14.190
charitable organizations that were really just

00:25:14.190 --> 00:25:16.470
money laundering they're really just funneling

00:25:16.470 --> 00:25:19.569
money into these people's hands like like the

00:25:19.569 --> 00:25:22.329
homeless thing in california oh my goodness it's

00:25:22.329 --> 00:25:26.210
a bonkers situation where they've spent 24 billion

00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:28.910
dollars they cannot track it they've tried to

00:25:28.910 --> 00:25:31.369
audit it the the government has vetoed these

00:25:31.369 --> 00:25:35.599
audits And they have no idea where that $24 billion

00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:39.279
went. And yet homelessness went up. Yeah. But

00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:43.279
you've got a giant machine that is this homeless

00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:45.940
establishment, this homeless industrial complex.

00:25:46.099 --> 00:25:49.119
Yes. That is being funneled money into that.

00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:52.079
And that actually aids the GDP, which is kind

00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.160
of crazy. Yeah. I mean, it was one of the things

00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:59.460
my last three years in the military. I was advising

00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:01.740
a colonel and a two -star general, and they were

00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:04.559
in charge of all of the offensive cyber development,

00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:08.680
ethical hacking, offensive cyber development.

00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:11.960
I was their technical advisor. And one of the

00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:13.420
things I kind of learned about government at

00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:18.640
that point was these systems have their own incentive,

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.019
and the incentive is not the output of their

00:26:21.019 --> 00:26:23.539
purported mission. The incentive is the growing

00:26:23.539 --> 00:26:26.480
of the organization and the execution of budget.

00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:30.099
So while they're in there, I've never seen a

00:26:30.099 --> 00:26:32.359
field grade officer get dressed down more than

00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:34.240
when he didn't spend all of the money that he

00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:36.339
was budgeted for for that year. Isn't that crazy?

00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:38.480
He would go to the Pentagon. And they'd be like,

00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.400
well, you didn't execute $300 million of OCO,

00:26:41.579 --> 00:26:44.299
of Overseas Contingent Operations funds here.

00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:46.559
And they would dress them down for an hour. And

00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:48.559
what people don't understand is if you don't

00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.380
spend that money, your budget for the next year

00:26:51.380 --> 00:26:53.940
will be lower because there's no need to have

00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:55.839
a higher budget. Instead of tying it to mission

00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:57.900
to say, did you achieve your mission objectives?

00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.200
Right. We started the year agreeing from the...

00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:03.440
President's framework, the NIPF, the National

00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:05.759
Intelligence Priority Framework, we wanted to

00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.099
achieve these effects. What you would want to

00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:11.359
hear is, we achieved them and we saved 25%. But

00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:13.099
instead it's, we achieved them, but we didn't

00:27:13.099 --> 00:27:14.720
execute all of this money. Well, you're fired.

00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:17.980
And I literally have seen that happen. I've literally

00:27:17.980 --> 00:27:21.799
seen that happen. What a sick society. Yeah,

00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.759
and that kind of shifted my thinking in that

00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.859
these systems have their own incentive to exist

00:27:27.859 --> 00:27:30.460
and to grow because those guys that were holding

00:27:30.460 --> 00:27:33.240
that general officer, that 06, that colonel's

00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:35.880
feet to the fire, they also have an incentive

00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:37.579
because they were part of that trickle down.

00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.380
And they've got bureaucracy that surrounds them.

00:27:40.650 --> 00:27:42.569
And if they didn't execute it, that means they

00:27:42.569 --> 00:27:44.250
didn't execute it. And that means they have to

00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:46.630
go to whomever. This was during the Biden administration.

00:27:46.890 --> 00:27:49.630
I believe Hegseth, for everything we could say,

00:27:49.730 --> 00:27:51.750
has actually tightened this up quite a bit. And

00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:53.609
he's kind of rehauled the way development works,

00:27:53.809 --> 00:27:56.869
especially on the offensive cyber side. But they

00:27:56.869 --> 00:27:58.670
have bureaucracies. And the incentive of the

00:27:58.670 --> 00:28:00.690
bureaucracy is to make sure that we grow. And

00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:03.190
that's it. And then then you think about that

00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:04.930
for a minute and you're like, well, it's no longer

00:28:04.930 --> 00:28:06.710
a question why we have 30 trillion dollars of.

00:28:07.470 --> 00:28:11.369
debt. 39. 39 trillion. And then what, like 150

00:28:11.369 --> 00:28:14.470
trillion of unfunded liability. In other words,

00:28:14.490 --> 00:28:17.730
we've promised people money for the next 30 years.

00:28:18.190 --> 00:28:21.210
And it's debt that, you know, I don't see how

00:28:21.210 --> 00:28:24.349
we'll ever escape that debt. And it's the thing

00:28:24.349 --> 00:28:26.950
about it is, and I don't want to be pigeonholed

00:28:26.950 --> 00:28:28.670
because I'm actually quite liberal when it comes

00:28:28.670 --> 00:28:33.259
to my politics. are like yours in that I'm kind

00:28:33.259 --> 00:28:35.359
of a man without a home. But they also change

00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:37.640
at different levels of analysis. I'm very liberal

00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:40.460
with my family, and I'm very, like, communist.

00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.819
I protect them. I give them everything they need.

00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:46.579
I'm trying to give them structure. And even in

00:28:46.579 --> 00:28:49.180
my community, I'll help someone out out of pocket

00:28:49.180 --> 00:28:51.759
or do something for them that's a strain on my

00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:53.859
time or might hurt something else because there

00:28:53.859 --> 00:28:55.740
are really no solutions. There's just tradeoffs.

00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:57.359
That's supportive for the community, though.

00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:59.319
That's how people are supposed to do charity.

00:28:59.539 --> 00:29:02.160
And I'm also very nonjudgmental in someone how

00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:03.480
they care. I don't care what they do in their

00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:05.259
house. I don't care if it's a Roman orgy on the

00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:08.680
weekends. be a predictable, productive person

00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:11.319
Monday through Friday and go do your Roman orgy

00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:13.000
on the, on the weekend. I don't care. I won't

00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:15.279
judge you. Like I don't, I really have enough

00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.720
crap in my own life. As long as someone's not

00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.220
getting hurt. Yeah. As long as no one's getting

00:29:19.220 --> 00:29:21.839
hurt, consenting adults. Like I have enough problems

00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.839
and I screw up enough and people have, have,

00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:25.259
there's a laundry list of things that people

00:29:25.259 --> 00:29:26.759
could say about me, how I've screwed up in my

00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:29.319
life. But then as I graduate and get higher and

00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:34.619
higher, more conservatism takes place. And, and,

00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.490
and that's a result of just, You know, having

00:29:37.490 --> 00:29:39.710
an engineering mindset when I'm looking at life

00:29:39.710 --> 00:29:43.009
and understanding that it's just not Republican

00:29:43.009 --> 00:29:47.309
or Democrat or leftist or rightist or liberal

00:29:47.309 --> 00:29:51.089
or or classically liberal. All of these monikers

00:29:51.089 --> 00:29:54.630
don't work for me because they break down. At

00:29:54.630 --> 00:29:57.329
some level of analysis. Right. And I think that's

00:29:57.329 --> 00:29:59.670
the problem. I think the problem is these ideologies

00:29:59.670 --> 00:30:02.230
that people subscribe to. We have a predetermined

00:30:02.230 --> 00:30:04.289
pattern of thinking that you're supposed to adopt.

00:30:04.549 --> 00:30:06.549
Yes. You're supposed to adopt these opinions.

00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:09.529
And some of them just don't fit. And that's how

00:30:09.529 --> 00:30:11.490
people get pigeon. That's like people on the

00:30:11.490 --> 00:30:13.609
left. They get pigeonholed into weird stuff that

00:30:13.609 --> 00:30:16.049
you can't really, really justify, like trans

00:30:16.049 --> 00:30:17.809
women in sports. Like, what the fuck are you

00:30:17.809 --> 00:30:19.970
doing? Like, you know, we're being inclusive.

00:30:20.170 --> 00:30:22.170
Like, no, you're not. We're loving the borders

00:30:22.170 --> 00:30:24.400
of Ukraine while hating our own border. Yeah.

00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:27.599
Fucking bonkers. Yeah. There's so many crazy

00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:29.960
things. There's so many crazy things that people

00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.160
just adopt that don't make any sense. And when

00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:36.160
you subscribe to an ideology, the problem is

00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:40.019
if you define yourself as this person, I am this.

00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.700
I am a hardcore right -wing blah, blah, whatever

00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:45.980
it is. You immediately close the door to all

00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:48.119
the very productive and interesting things that

00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:49.940
the other side thinks. Yeah. And you're also

00:30:49.940 --> 00:30:52.380
making yourself into a tool of propaganda. Mm

00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:54.940
-hmm. if I if someone if I meet someone and they

00:30:54.940 --> 00:30:57.400
just say I'm this right it's like well I could

00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.759
reasonably predict everything that's going to

00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.839
come out of your mouth. That's not entertaining.

00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:03.220
I don't want to have a conversation with that

00:31:03.220 --> 00:31:05.299
person. I can't seek to learn from them because

00:31:05.299 --> 00:31:07.220
I could just pick up the Communist Manifesto

00:31:07.220 --> 00:31:09.759
or Mein Kampf and have a pretty good understanding

00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:11.539
of who I'm dealing with and therefore a conversation

00:31:11.539 --> 00:31:14.920
is not relevant. It's not needed. A lot of people

00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:17.500
are afraid of social ostracization too. So they're

00:31:17.500 --> 00:31:21.099
afraid of straying outside of the narrative,

00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.200
whatever side they're supposed to be on. groups

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.819
are really good at making you feel like dog shit

00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:30.980
if you don't agree entirely with even things

00:31:30.980 --> 00:31:33.019
that don't even make any sense. So that's why

00:31:33.019 --> 00:31:34.960
people go along with stuff that's illogical,

00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:37.799
like open borders or whatever it is. They go

00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.140
along with things that's not in their best interest

00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:42.519
because they're scared. They're scared of being

00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:44.519
ostracized. They're scared of being cast out

00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:47.039
of the kingdom. They're scared of being excommunicated.

00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:50.480
Yeah, I dealt with a lot of people first when

00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.130
I retired from the military. And then more recently,

00:31:53.250 --> 00:31:56.509
leading up to the last election where, you know,

00:31:56.529 --> 00:31:57.950
I was entertaining the deal of doing some work

00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:01.730
for government, believe it or not. And because

00:32:01.730 --> 00:32:04.150
I'm as we talk more, you'll figure out I'm pretty

00:32:04.150 --> 00:32:09.829
anti institutions. I'm really against those types

00:32:09.829 --> 00:32:12.170
of things. But I really felt if you would have

00:32:12.170 --> 00:32:13.829
asked me three years ago how I felt about the

00:32:13.829 --> 00:32:16.130
Trump election and all of that stuff. I was very

00:32:16.130 --> 00:32:17.730
excited because he was saying a lot of things

00:32:17.730 --> 00:32:20.670
that I wanted someone to say. Trump fits a pattern.

00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.279
And this is what people I think kind of lack

00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.859
when they, my whole life is built around pattern

00:32:26.859 --> 00:32:30.000
analysis. I really enjoy patterns and exhuming

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.000
and looking into patterns. And there's a pattern

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.440
of like a, you'll laugh when I say this first

00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:39.799
part of the pattern, but then I'll make it make

00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:42.980
more sense later. But he fits the pattern. Well,

00:32:43.019 --> 00:32:46.880
first he's a Jacksonian and in that he's a pragmatic.

00:32:47.549 --> 00:32:49.690
person, the way that he governs, which I liked,

00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:51.829
or at least I did. And, you know, there's some

00:32:51.829 --> 00:32:53.470
things he's done recently that I don't enjoy.

00:32:53.990 --> 00:32:58.369
And, um, but he's also a, an outsider or a, or

00:32:58.369 --> 00:33:03.490
a savior type all, uh, you know, I don't remember

00:33:03.490 --> 00:33:05.490
the movie, but the magnificent seven back in

00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:07.829
the day, I don't remember the actor's name. There's

00:33:07.829 --> 00:33:09.529
this group of, you know, there's this Western

00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:12.470
town, everything's going to shit. These seven

00:33:12.470 --> 00:33:14.869
guys walk in. I think Chris Pratt remade it with

00:33:14.869 --> 00:33:16.730
Denzel Washington or someone else. Oh, really?

00:33:16.890 --> 00:33:19.150
I think so. I can't remember. But there's an

00:33:19.150 --> 00:33:20.490
old one that I used to watch with my grandpa.

00:33:20.650 --> 00:33:23.089
God, there's too many movies. Yeah. And there's

00:33:23.089 --> 00:33:25.630
this pattern where you wouldn't invite these

00:33:25.630 --> 00:33:27.630
guys to a dinner party. You wouldn't want them

00:33:27.630 --> 00:33:30.210
in church on Sunday. But when a system is so

00:33:30.210 --> 00:33:33.450
corrupt and so horrible, you have to rely on

00:33:33.450 --> 00:33:35.430
these types of people to come in and be a check

00:33:35.430 --> 00:33:37.930
to the system. But then also you don't want them

00:33:37.930 --> 00:33:40.529
to stick around when the system is reset. So

00:33:40.529 --> 00:33:42.630
there's a scene in the movie where he says, you

00:33:42.630 --> 00:33:45.329
know, man, these seven guys are talking. They

00:33:45.329 --> 00:33:47.130
said, man, these people must have really wanted

00:33:47.130 --> 00:33:49.589
us. Like, it's crazy. They must be happy we're

00:33:49.589 --> 00:33:51.710
here. And I think it's Gary Cooper or someone

00:33:51.710 --> 00:33:53.809
or one of these guys looks at him and says, they're

00:33:53.809 --> 00:33:56.329
going to be even happier when we leave. And Trump

00:33:56.329 --> 00:33:58.750
kind of fits that narrative. Wolverine from the

00:33:58.750 --> 00:34:00.450
X -Men would be another one who fits this narrative.

00:34:01.630 --> 00:34:03.529
Is he going to be at the X -Men Christmas party?

00:34:03.829 --> 00:34:06.970
No, right? Is he trying to hit on Scott Gray's

00:34:06.970 --> 00:34:09.030
wife, Cyclops? I'm a comic nerd, so I'm sorry.

00:34:09.210 --> 00:34:12.849
Is he trying to sleep with Cyclops' wife? Yes.

00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:15.349
Did he chop a guy's head off and throw it at

00:34:15.349 --> 00:34:18.150
a car? Yes. But we're about to go face Galactus,

00:34:18.329 --> 00:34:21.369
and we're going to need him. And so we have to

00:34:21.369 --> 00:34:24.289
put up with all of this other stuff because we

00:34:24.289 --> 00:34:26.769
understand that when the system is corrupt at

00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:28.949
every level, you need someone who's outside of

00:34:28.949 --> 00:34:30.510
the system to come in and set the system right.

00:34:30.980 --> 00:34:34.920
It's a Western pattern as well. Other people

00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:37.059
who fit this would be like Patton, right? Married

00:34:37.059 --> 00:34:40.019
his cousin. Slap soldiers. Did he really? Married

00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:41.320
his cousin? Yeah, I think it was his third cousin.

00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.800
How many... Cousins removed, does it become okay?

00:34:45.980 --> 00:34:48.679
I don't know. Is it third, fourth? If there's

00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:50.840
blood. Have you never met them? I'm Icelandic,

00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:52.659
so I really can't say anything, right? They literally

00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:54.800
have apps in Iceland. Like my grandparents and

00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:56.159
my great -grandparents are all from Iceland.

00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:59.519
They settled in Manitoba, Gimli, Manitoba, which

00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.579
is this Icelandic community. And they literally

00:35:01.579 --> 00:35:03.079
have apps in Iceland to make sure you're not

00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:07.920
dating your cousin. Is it such a small community?

00:35:07.940 --> 00:35:11.059
Less than a million people on one island. So

00:35:11.059 --> 00:35:13.340
you're trying to prevent that stuff. But anyway,

00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:16.800
Patton, yeah, slapped soldiers who had tuberculosis.

00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.800
One of them probably had shell shock. It got

00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.780
in the newspaper. They wanted his head. And thankfully,

00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:24.380
the generals were like, no, he's the guy that

00:35:24.380 --> 00:35:26.300
we need for the moment, right? He had the ivory

00:35:26.300 --> 00:35:29.320
pistols, and he dressed not like a general. He

00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:35.119
didn't talk like a general. veneer of a general

00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:37.940
but we knew he was the only guy we could have

00:35:37.940 --> 00:35:39.980
at the battle of the bulge like the germans talked

00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:42.460
about him like he was already a mythic legend

00:35:42.460 --> 00:35:47.360
in his own in his lifetime But part of this pattern

00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:49.119
that people should understand or when they examine

00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:50.840
this pattern is it never ends well for these

00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:54.099
antiheroes. They're always killed or defamed

00:35:54.099 --> 00:35:57.679
in the final analysis. So when Magnus and Seven

00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:59.280
come in, they'll go to another town and all get

00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.699
killed. When Patton retired, he died in some

00:36:01.699 --> 00:36:05.519
weird Jeep accident. Wolverine, he's the only

00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:09.420
guy left. on this desolate world where the Hulk's

00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:12.400
in charge and it's a horrible existence. Pat,

00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:16.780
or not Pat, Petraeus is another one. I briefed

00:36:16.780 --> 00:36:19.239
Petraeus. I worked for, not for him, but for

00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:23.619
people who worked for him in Iraq. And he was

00:36:23.619 --> 00:36:25.900
the guy that got us through with the surge. But

00:36:25.900 --> 00:36:29.159
he was really a weird guy when you would talk

00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.480
to him. You knew that he knew something you didn't

00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.719
and that he was seeing things that you weren't.

00:36:35.289 --> 00:36:37.690
But even for myself, as being like a chief warrant

00:36:37.690 --> 00:36:39.190
officer at that time, a low -level technician,

00:36:39.510 --> 00:36:41.929
he would ask questions like he got it. He didn't

00:36:41.929 --> 00:36:43.670
act like other generals. Like other generals

00:36:43.670 --> 00:36:45.050
would have their three things they want to talk

00:36:45.050 --> 00:36:46.349
about, then they'd want to get out of Dodge.

00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:48.989
He would ask questions that really had implications.

00:36:49.570 --> 00:36:52.610
And he is another one of these outsiders who

00:36:52.610 --> 00:36:54.710
came in to write a system that was not working

00:36:54.710 --> 00:36:59.110
vis -a -vis Iraq in 2006. And then what happens

00:36:59.110 --> 00:37:01.150
to him when he leaves? They put him in charge

00:37:01.150 --> 00:37:03.670
of the CIA. They knew he had been screwing around

00:37:03.670 --> 00:37:06.110
with this woman. And they're like, OK, we he

00:37:06.110 --> 00:37:07.829
served his function. Now he needs to get out

00:37:07.829 --> 00:37:11.329
of Dodge. And then he now he's, you know, got

00:37:11.329 --> 00:37:13.750
tried for all these things and sleeping with

00:37:13.750 --> 00:37:15.750
someone while he wasn't married. And, you know,

00:37:15.789 --> 00:37:17.630
there's it's not a ceremonious end for these

00:37:17.630 --> 00:37:20.719
types. Is that really what happened to Petraeus?

00:37:20.739 --> 00:37:23.460
That's how he ended? Yeah, he was sleeping with

00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:25.420
some girl that was writing his book or something

00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:28.219
along those lines. That's it? While he was married?

00:37:28.539 --> 00:37:30.519
Yeah, I'm not saying that's the end of him. All

00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:34.000
I'm saying is history will remember the pattern

00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:36.619
as ending unfavorably. You know what I'm saying?

00:37:37.289 --> 00:37:40.269
And so when I examined Trump, I said, yeah, I

00:37:40.269 --> 00:37:42.010
don't like what he says. I wouldn't want him

00:37:42.010 --> 00:37:44.190
around my daughters. I don't want wouldn't want

00:37:44.190 --> 00:37:47.269
him at a dinner party. But he seems to be saying

00:37:47.269 --> 00:37:49.510
these things like he's going to reset this system.

00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:51.960
You know, I think it was Chappelle was on your

00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:53.780
show or another show or someone like that where

00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:56.880
he talked about Hillary saying, you know, something

00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:59.139
about the tax loopholes or whatever. And he just

00:37:59.139 --> 00:38:00.940
hit right back at her and said, well, you're

00:38:00.940 --> 00:38:02.599
the people who are funding your campaign. Take

00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:04.860
advantage of those same loopholes. And if they're

00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:06.300
there, I'm going to take advantage of them. I

00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:08.579
wouldn't be a pragmatist if I didn't. When he

00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:10.260
started saying stuff like that, it seemed to

00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:12.780
me like he was going to upend this system. The

00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:14.440
jury's out on that because I don't know how I

00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:15.900
feel these days. We can get into that if you

00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:20.039
need to, if we want to. He's an outsider personality,

00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.019
and I thought he was going to really reset the

00:38:22.019 --> 00:38:25.880
system. And there are good things that are happening.

00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:27.679
If I were to grade him, I would probably give

00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:30.820
him a C plus or a B minus. He's certainly better

00:38:30.820 --> 00:38:33.699
than what was happening under Biden. I was still

00:38:33.699 --> 00:38:35.340
in the military when Biden was in charge, and

00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:38.920
it was awful, to say the least. What were the

00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:42.500
problems? Oh, my goodness. Books that general

00:38:42.500 --> 00:38:44.400
officers were being told to read and that I,

00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:46.980
as an advisor, were being told to read. Books

00:38:46.980 --> 00:38:50.119
like White Rage, like understanding why you're

00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:53.679
a problem. You as a white man are a problem in

00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:57.539
the modern day military because this whole thing's

00:38:57.539 --> 00:39:00.900
built on systemic racism. You have built implicit

00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:03.139
bias that you can't escape even if you wanted

00:39:03.139 --> 00:39:05.300
to or you recognized it. It's woke politics.

00:39:05.659 --> 00:39:10.159
Yeah, it was woke politics. And it was, you know,

00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.780
I would sit there and say, you know, all of the

00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:15.159
people that I know who've died during this war,

00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:17.809
not all of them, but. 80 % of them. And the numbers

00:39:17.809 --> 00:39:19.570
bear this out when you look at them. They're

00:39:19.570 --> 00:39:21.389
all white guys from the middle of the country

00:39:21.389 --> 00:39:24.989
who were on their farms or, you know, not all

00:39:24.989 --> 00:39:26.829
of them, 80 % of them. I think the numbers bear

00:39:26.829 --> 00:39:29.510
out about 80 % of them were these guys from the

00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:31.650
Midwest or these places where they didn't really

00:39:31.650 --> 00:39:34.030
have a lot going. And they went off to fight

00:39:34.030 --> 00:39:35.550
a war that we probably shouldn't have been fighting

00:39:35.550 --> 00:39:38.570
in the first place, especially in Iraq. And they

00:39:38.570 --> 00:39:41.550
died for their cause. And now you're saying that.

00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:43.760
Those people who make up the majority of the

00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:45.980
combat deaths are somehow part of this problem

00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:48.840
and that other people aren't benefiting from

00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:52.659
it I don't believe race to me is disgusting even

00:39:52.659 --> 00:39:55.860
to talk about someone's race even you know on

00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:58.679
both sides of the spectrum When they were you

00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:01.219
know electing that Supreme Court justice? I can't

00:40:01.219 --> 00:40:02.719
remember her name right now at the top my head

00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:05.659
just because I'm a little nervous still She was

00:40:05.659 --> 00:40:07.659
black and they were tangy brown jacks. Yeah,

00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:09.119
they're talking about how it's historic because

00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:11.489
she's black and Biden had said he's going to

00:40:11.489 --> 00:40:14.750
hire a black woman to do this job. If I had worked

00:40:14.750 --> 00:40:17.230
my whole life to do something, but now I'm only

00:40:17.230 --> 00:40:19.269
being elevated to this next position because

00:40:19.269 --> 00:40:21.989
of my gender and the color of my skin, I would

00:40:21.989 --> 00:40:24.670
turn that job down so fast because that's not

00:40:24.670 --> 00:40:26.829
what I want to be known for. These are immutable

00:40:26.829 --> 00:40:29.389
characteristics that I'm not in control of. I

00:40:29.389 --> 00:40:31.889
didn't choose to be born white or with blue eyes.

00:40:32.070 --> 00:40:34.090
I didn't choose to be born in a trailer park

00:40:34.090 --> 00:40:36.010
in the middle of nowhere without a dad at five.

00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.480
I didn't choose any of those things. I don't

00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:40.539
see how I benefit from these things at the individual

00:40:40.539 --> 00:40:43.480
level. And, you know, the individual level of

00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:45.619
analysis for me is really the only way to evaluate

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:48.280
someone for their pluses and their minuses. And

00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:50.699
anything beyond that to me is discriminatory

00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:53.380
on its face. Of course. It's just a great way

00:40:53.380 --> 00:40:56.019
to control people because you pit people against

00:40:56.019 --> 00:40:58.579
each other that way. And it's just an awesome

00:40:58.579 --> 00:41:01.199
way that they can stay in control and make everybody.

00:41:01.949 --> 00:41:04.570
walk on eggshells and think that, you know, they've

00:41:04.570 --> 00:41:06.909
victimized people in order to get to their position

00:41:06.909 --> 00:41:10.889
and they have to be shameful of who they are

00:41:10.889 --> 00:41:13.510
that they had no control over. It also gives

00:41:13.510 --> 00:41:15.389
people an easy rubric to judge other people.

00:41:15.510 --> 00:41:18.769
Yeah. Because nothing's easy, really. And it

00:41:18.769 --> 00:41:21.929
gives them, like, white guy bad, you know, black

00:41:21.929 --> 00:41:24.429
guy good, Chinese guy, as long as he's not applying

00:41:24.429 --> 00:41:25.949
to the college I want to get into, he's good.

00:41:26.070 --> 00:41:29.730
Right. And it gives people, people want easy

00:41:29.730 --> 00:41:32.150
answers. Really, at the end of the day, they

00:41:32.150 --> 00:41:34.269
want to be told the easy rubric to navigate life

00:41:34.269 --> 00:41:36.090
because really none of it's easy and it requires

00:41:36.090 --> 00:41:39.150
discipline, like you said before, and thought.

00:41:39.309 --> 00:41:43.369
And so it was that stuff in the military. I remember

00:41:43.369 --> 00:41:46.590
getting told in an equal opportunity briefing

00:41:46.590 --> 00:41:50.630
we were getting, it doesn't matter what you meant

00:41:50.630 --> 00:41:54.010
when you said what you were saying. It only matters

00:41:54.010 --> 00:41:57.349
what the person felt when you said it. They said

00:41:57.349 --> 00:41:58.889
that in a military briefing? It was a military

00:41:58.889 --> 00:42:01.900
equal opportunity briefing. So, and the example

00:42:01.900 --> 00:42:04.079
they gave was if a woman walks into the, like

00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.519
we worked with a lot of civilians at this military

00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:11.880
organization where we're developing these offensive

00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:13.719
cyber capabilities, a lot of civilians in there.

00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:17.820
And so if, you know, woman X walks in today and

00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:19.539
she's got a dress on and the thought in your

00:42:19.539 --> 00:42:22.119
head is, I'd like to get my wife that dress or

00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:23.619
something like it or find out where she bought

00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:26.619
it. And you just say, that's a nice dress. Anyway,

00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:31.000
here's the TPS reports. If she heard. something

00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:33.420
sexual or didn't like the connotation or whatever,

00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:36.559
there's going to be an investigation. You're

00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.079
going to be pulled out of that office. This is

00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:41.460
all going to happen despite what you meant. So

00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:43.820
the idea probably was good. We want to prevent

00:42:43.820 --> 00:42:47.880
sexual harassment inside of the office. But it

00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.960
was weaponized. But it was weaponized and it

00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:51.480
was carried out in a way where it's only about

00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:53.840
how people feel and not what a reasonable person

00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.699
standard would be in a particular situation.

00:42:56.500 --> 00:42:59.460
And from the time I joined the military, Until

00:42:59.460 --> 00:43:01.519
that time, we had been at war. My entire time

00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:04.380
in the military, we were at war. I deployed throughout

00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:07.739
my career. And I wouldn't say that I was a war

00:43:07.739 --> 00:43:09.760
horse. I was not a long tabber. I was not a cool

00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:12.539
guy kicking in doors. It was my job as the guy

00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:15.880
with tape over his glasses to point out the door

00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:17.860
for someone else and say, bad guy's in there.

00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:21.960
So I was not a super badass in that regard. I

00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:26.260
was a nerd for super badasses. But we also all

00:43:26.260 --> 00:43:28.940
engaged in gallows humor. And we would, you know,

00:43:28.940 --> 00:43:32.820
the jokes and stuff. Even someone who had recently

00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:35.239
died, we would make a joke about. It's because

00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:39.860
you have this tremendous pressure. And comedy

00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:42.599
is the relief valve for that in a lot of ways.

00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:44.760
Yeah, of course. But then someone would overhear

00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:46.800
that joke or something. And now you're looking

00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:49.199
down the barrel of a 15 -6, which is a military

00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:53.079
investigation. And all of these things that could

00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:55.239
permanently impact your life in a way and give

00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:57.789
you a scarlet letter. To where you could never

00:43:57.789 --> 00:43:59.789
be employed again or do anything ever again because

00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:02.889
you were simply trying to relieve some pressure

00:44:02.889 --> 00:44:05.409
or you were trying to find out where to buy your

00:44:05.409 --> 00:44:07.909
wife the next dress. And now your life's being

00:44:07.909 --> 00:44:09.929
ruined. And I know guys who suffered under that

00:44:09.929 --> 00:44:11.690
sword. Like I wouldn't name them, but I know

00:44:11.690 --> 00:44:15.329
guys who, you know, their career met a terminal

00:44:15.329 --> 00:44:18.750
end because of a dumb joke or something. It's

00:44:18.750 --> 00:44:20.250
like you can't be expected to go out and shoot

00:44:20.250 --> 00:44:23.269
people in the face and then be sensitive to someone's

00:44:23.269 --> 00:44:26.219
feelings. an hour later. Right. It's just, it

00:44:26.219 --> 00:44:28.219
doesn't, it does not work. Now, should you talk

00:44:28.219 --> 00:44:29.820
to that guy and say, Hey, you know, you made

00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:32.880
woman X feel so -and -so be more cognizant of

00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:34.659
that whenever you're around her in the future.

00:44:34.780 --> 00:44:36.179
Well, you should also have a rational discussion

00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:38.539
with the woman. Yes. And what did he ask you?

00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:40.980
He said, where did you get that dress? It's very

00:44:40.980 --> 00:44:44.559
lovely. I'd like to get one for my wife. Why

00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:46.679
were you upset at that? Like, what does this,

00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:49.820
is this rational? Like how you can't be in an

00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:52.920
office if you're that sensitive. It's one thing

00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:54.500
if the guy said, I'd like to get you out of that

00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:57.420
dress. Well, for sure. Now you're in a different

00:44:57.420 --> 00:45:00.239
world. 100%. 100%. Right. But if someone says,

00:45:00.340 --> 00:45:03.179
you look great. Have you lost weight? You look

00:45:03.179 --> 00:45:06.599
fantastic. That's a compliment. Yes. And if someone

00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:09.599
gets upset, I felt sexually objectified. I felt

00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:12.219
harassed. Like, okay, he just said you look great.

00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:15.199
Yeah. That's it. Healthy. It's not you look great,

00:45:15.219 --> 00:45:17.239
I'd like to get you naked. Now we've crossed

00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:19.619
the Rubicon, right? Yes, for sure, for sure.

00:45:19.820 --> 00:45:22.880
But just you look great or I like your dress.

00:45:23.839 --> 00:45:26.059
That's like if you said that to a man like hey

00:45:26.059 --> 00:45:28.280
great suit. Yeah, he's like I need to file a

00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:30.800
complaint Yeah, I need to file a complaint. Yeah,

00:45:30.820 --> 00:45:32.860
you've trimmed up Joe. You're looking great bill

00:45:32.860 --> 00:45:35.659
like oh my god. I'm being harassed I need it

00:45:35.659 --> 00:45:37.659
like complaint that would have worked during

00:45:37.659 --> 00:45:39.980
the body that is fucking crazy. That would have

00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:42.059
worked That's so crazy and the other thing that

00:45:42.059 --> 00:45:43.400
they were doing this briefing Which is where

00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:46.300
I kind of you know the last couple years my military

00:45:46.300 --> 00:45:48.079
career I got in trouble a couple times or I should

00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:51.360
say called down. I was a senior I was a CW4.

00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:54.460
I was one rank from the top. I was advising two

00:45:54.460 --> 00:45:57.760
-star generals, colonels on very important matters.

00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:02.219
I wasn't high in the dominance hierarchy, but

00:46:02.219 --> 00:46:04.480
I was adjacent to people who were as an advisor.

00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:11.960
And the amount of, in this briefing in particular,

00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:16.739
they had gotten into, you know, it's bad that

00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:20.559
there are so many white people. I'm doing high

00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:23.099
points here, but we need more diversity. I was

00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:25.400
part of an accepted career program that they

00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:27.000
were starting to call like the old white boys

00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:30.320
network because most of the people. So the requirements

00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:33.000
for this network were you had to speak a couple

00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:35.980
languages. You needed an engineering degree or

00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:37.960
some kind of demonstrated engineering background.

00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.659
You had to have deployed. They wanted you to

00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:45.000
speak the language very well. They wanted you

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:47.139
to be able to go through these engineering courses,

00:46:47.179 --> 00:46:50.949
these other things. And what happens naturally

00:46:50.949 --> 00:46:53.329
is you now need people who are interested in

00:46:53.329 --> 00:46:55.409
engineering. All right. So you've got somebody

00:46:55.409 --> 00:46:58.010
who's maybe more constrained in their thinking.

00:46:58.289 --> 00:47:00.469
You need somebody who speaks languages. Well,

00:47:00.510 --> 00:47:04.010
now they also need to be kind of, you know, speak

00:47:04.010 --> 00:47:06.889
French, speak Russian, whatever it was. So they

00:47:06.889 --> 00:47:08.670
had to have studied or lived in an area and done

00:47:08.670 --> 00:47:10.489
this. And they need to be able to go through

00:47:10.489 --> 00:47:13.909
these crazy tactical and strategic types of courses.

00:47:14.329 --> 00:47:16.530
By virtue of those things, you're going to get

00:47:16.530 --> 00:47:20.519
men. And there were lots of women, but then there'll

00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:23.300
be more white men. And it's not because the pool

00:47:23.300 --> 00:47:26.239
presented itself that way. Now you have to extract

00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:30.199
from that pool. And so in this briefing, when

00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:31.960
they were talking about like the old white boys

00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:34.239
network or how we need to change things, I said,

00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.559
you know, do you realize that most men have more

00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:41.219
in common? um than most women or like if there's

00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:43.860
a if if i if i say i need more diversity in a

00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:46.260
particular room if you said diversity of thought

00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:50.639
i'd be fine with that but but joe and you know

00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:53.579
random black guy in the in the same program in

00:47:53.579 --> 00:47:56.119
the same office have far more in common than

00:47:56.119 --> 00:48:00.500
the white woman But what you're saying is these

00:48:00.500 --> 00:48:02.639
people need to have all separate different colors

00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.480
and different – like all of this needs to be

00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:07.719
this way. It's going to naturally present itself

00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:10.059
that way because men in the military generally

00:48:10.059 --> 00:48:12.380
are disagreeable. Men in the military who like

00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:15.039
engineering are generally hyper -disagreeable.

00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:18.820
And the only difference between these two people

00:48:18.820 --> 00:48:21.610
is the pigment of their skin. So this fake diversity

00:48:21.610 --> 00:48:24.449
quota that they're putting on top of us doesn't

00:48:24.449 --> 00:48:26.449
achieve anything other than giving some officer

00:48:26.449 --> 00:48:29.969
a bullet on their OER. And, you know, I got pulled

00:48:29.969 --> 00:48:32.070
into the office afterward. I said way more than

00:48:32.070 --> 00:48:33.630
that. But essentially afterwards, they're like,

00:48:33.730 --> 00:48:36.369
hey, chief, you can't say that in those briefings.

00:48:36.369 --> 00:48:38.329
Like the way that you were getting animated in

00:48:38.329 --> 00:48:39.550
there and what you're saying, what you're doing,

00:48:39.610 --> 00:48:43.460
like, yeah, this is not going to fly. And this

00:48:43.460 --> 00:48:46.079
was like 2018 or 2019 or something. Just being

00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:48.059
rational. Yeah, just trying to be rational and

00:48:48.059 --> 00:48:51.039
say that there's more difference in groups than

00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:53.940
there is between groups. And that the similarities

00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:56.300
and the way that things stack up, you recruit

00:48:56.300 --> 00:48:59.159
from a pool of volunteers and candidates. If

00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:01.039
I'm recruiting from a pool of volunteers and

00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:03.760
candidates who are 80 % male and white, I have

00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:07.059
to expect that the selected individuals are going

00:49:07.059 --> 00:49:09.519
to be male and white. The majority of people

00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:12.059
who join the military. I don't control this.

00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:14.539
I'm just, as an engineer, I'm looking at statistics.

00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:16.800
Also, if you want a highly functional, productive

00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:19.320
group, it's got to be based on meritocracy. Yeah,

00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.619
for sure. Anything other than that is literally

00:49:22.619 --> 00:49:25.579
a threat to national security. Yeah, you're denigrating

00:49:25.579 --> 00:49:29.179
lethality. The role of the army is to deter war

00:49:29.179 --> 00:49:32.920
through exuding superior military fighting and

00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.699
technology. And when deterrence fails to win,

00:49:35.860 --> 00:49:39.840
that's it. Those are the two things that we need

00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:41.840
to do with our military. It needs to look like

00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:43.619
the guy in the playground who you would not muck

00:49:43.619 --> 00:49:45.659
about with. And if you were to muck with him,

00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.280
he will beat you senseless. That's it. Now, whether

00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:50.860
or not we should be using that all the time or

00:49:50.860 --> 00:49:53.280
how we use it, that's a separate question. But

00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:56.000
the entity itself needs to comport itself in

00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.860
this way. Otherwise, you are endangering this

00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:02.380
truly special experiment, which at least in its

00:50:02.380 --> 00:50:06.579
beginnings valued the individual. It valued individual

00:50:06.579 --> 00:50:11.420
rights and states' rights and the founders. And

00:50:11.420 --> 00:50:12.960
this was another thing I said in that briefing

00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:16.519
was the founders knew, yes, they were all slaveholders,

00:50:16.699 --> 00:50:19.219
but they knew that the Constitution and the Bill

00:50:19.219 --> 00:50:20.719
of Rights and the Declaration of Independence

00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:24.039
would eventually lead to a system where we had

00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:26.780
to acknowledge these people as people. And we

00:50:26.780 --> 00:50:29.940
fought a civil war where a million white dudes

00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:33.690
died. And to see this experiment through, the

00:50:33.690 --> 00:50:36.090
scaffolding was there. You have to look at the

00:50:36.090 --> 00:50:38.570
things, the zeitgeist of the time. If they had

00:50:38.570 --> 00:50:40.510
just said, nope, everyone's going to be free,

00:50:41.070 --> 00:50:43.329
there will be no slaves, you would have never

00:50:43.329 --> 00:50:45.150
gotten ratification through the southern states.

00:50:45.630 --> 00:50:47.269
But they knew that there are, and when you read

00:50:47.269 --> 00:50:49.050
the Federalist Papers, they knew that they were

00:50:49.050 --> 00:50:51.849
erecting this system. When you look at Thomas

00:50:51.849 --> 00:50:53.449
Jefferson and some of these other great thinkers,

00:50:53.510 --> 00:50:57.210
yes, he owned slaves, I get it. They knew what

00:50:57.210 --> 00:50:58.969
they were building and they knew that what would

00:50:58.969 --> 00:51:01.329
ultimately terminate in. And then we had a civil

00:51:01.329 --> 00:51:04.849
war where we destroyed our country from the inside

00:51:04.849 --> 00:51:08.289
to see this dream come about. And now we're just

00:51:08.289 --> 00:51:09.929
going to all go back and say they're all slave

00:51:09.929 --> 00:51:11.829
owners. Like, I know this has all been said here

00:51:11.829 --> 00:51:14.329
a million times, but this stuff animates me because

00:51:14.329 --> 00:51:16.170
it's built with blood and treasure. Well, it's

00:51:16.170 --> 00:51:19.590
also you can't judge people from the past based

00:51:19.590 --> 00:51:22.030
on the standards of the present. For sure. Because

00:51:22.030 --> 00:51:25.139
culture changes people. understand things better.

00:51:25.219 --> 00:51:30.559
We have a much greater recognition of what was

00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.320
wrong with things 100 years ago, 200 years ago.

00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:36.699
And I'm sure in the future, we're going to look

00:51:36.699 --> 00:51:41.019
back on today with the same lens. It just always

00:51:41.019 --> 00:51:42.860
works that way. Did you know Joe had a gas -powered

00:51:42.860 --> 00:51:45.869
car? Exactly. That kind of stuff. Yeah. Did you

00:51:45.869 --> 00:51:48.489
know that? You consumed more, you flew more,

00:51:48.590 --> 00:51:50.730
you ate more meat, you did whatever you did.

00:51:50.809 --> 00:51:53.690
You were a problem. He was a problem. Yeah. And

00:51:53.690 --> 00:51:56.170
now why would we ever, like I'm voting to get

00:51:56.170 --> 00:51:57.909
rid of the Joe Rogan experience from the National

00:51:57.909 --> 00:52:01.159
Archives because he drove a gas car. You know

00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:03.639
what I mean? Like someone stores your stuff for

00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:05.920
profundity's sake for the future to hear about

00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:10.380
this. I've always loved your podcast, Joe, and

00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:12.920
it was because you're a genuinely curious person,

00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:15.340
and I'm not kissing your ass right now. You're

00:52:15.340 --> 00:52:18.099
a genuinely curious person that was saying things

00:52:18.099 --> 00:52:20.340
that were not in the current zeitgeist at the

00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:23.090
time, and you refused to apologize for it. And

00:52:23.090 --> 00:52:27.030
it led to a lot of great things, but it led to

00:52:27.030 --> 00:52:29.130
an updating of the system. And you did it with

00:52:29.130 --> 00:52:32.329
dialogue, with the dialogos, with two people

00:52:32.329 --> 00:52:34.730
trying to learn things about each other. And

00:52:34.730 --> 00:52:36.730
it led to an updating of a system. I think it's

00:52:36.730 --> 00:52:39.170
very important for culture to have free and open

00:52:39.170 --> 00:52:41.469
dialogue so we can update our system. So bad

00:52:41.469 --> 00:52:43.889
ideas can die so we don't have to die instead

00:52:43.889 --> 00:52:46.630
of our bad ideas. Because if I can't express

00:52:46.630 --> 00:52:49.550
a bad idea, I have to act it out. And if I act

00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:51.769
out the bad idea, it could kill me. And the celebration

00:52:51.769 --> 00:52:54.750
of good ideas. And the celebration of good ideas.

00:52:54.929 --> 00:52:58.550
And it's just really there's just been such a

00:52:58.550 --> 00:53:02.889
weird inversion in politics where the free hippie

00:53:02.889 --> 00:53:06.110
loving liberals of yesteryear are now the ones

00:53:06.110 --> 00:53:08.289
telling you what words you can use. There are

00:53:08.289 --> 00:53:12.139
no borders. All of these crazy things. And I

00:53:12.139 --> 00:53:14.920
always say to people, I said it to Andy on my

00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:17.940
last podcast with him. I'm like a 1996 Bill Clinton

00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:20.340
Democrat. If you go watch State of the Union,

00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:23.820
he talks about lowering debt, getting out of

00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:25.719
debt, actually working with Newt Gingrich to

00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:29.199
get out of debt, securing the borders, making

00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:34.280
work and education freely accessible. I'm voting

00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:36.559
for that guy. I know. Isn't it crazy that I mean,

00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:38.659
that's why the problem of labels doesn't work.

00:53:39.899 --> 00:53:42.760
ideological labels. Because if you go back far

00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.360
enough and look at Clinton, for example, he's

00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:47.119
one of the best ones. And by the way, did balance

00:53:47.119 --> 00:53:48.780
the budget. Yeah, he did. He actually did. We

00:53:48.780 --> 00:53:50.260
had a surplus when he left the office. Yeah.

00:53:50.420 --> 00:53:53.019
Amazing. Did a fucking amazing job. So he got

00:53:53.019 --> 00:53:56.159
his dick sucked. Yeah. Who didn't? Back then,

00:53:56.219 --> 00:53:58.139
that's the other thing. Judging people by the

00:53:58.139 --> 00:54:01.320
standards of the past, you know, JFK doesn't

00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:04.139
look so good in the Me Too movement. Right. Exactly.

00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:06.099
I mean, he would have got canceled. Yeah. It's

00:54:06.099 --> 00:54:10.329
like you have to recognize that. This ideological

00:54:10.329 --> 00:54:12.909
bubble that we find ourselves in, left versus

00:54:12.909 --> 00:54:15.309
right, Bill Clinton does not fit in that. Bill

00:54:15.309 --> 00:54:18.949
Clinton is securely on the right in terms of

00:54:18.949 --> 00:54:22.630
1996 standards applied to today. He would never

00:54:22.630 --> 00:54:24.389
want to hear that. No, he would never want to

00:54:24.389 --> 00:54:26.510
hear that because he's kind of shifted with the

00:54:26.510 --> 00:54:28.230
zeitgeist because that's what you kind of have

00:54:28.230 --> 00:54:30.389
to do if you want to stay in your party and be

00:54:30.389 --> 00:54:33.090
protected by your party. Yes. But he's essentially

00:54:33.090 --> 00:54:36.469
– he had a lot of the – I mean we've talked about

00:54:36.469 --> 00:54:39.340
this before. played clips of Hillary Clinton

00:54:39.340 --> 00:54:42.940
from 2008 and she's more MAGA than MAGA. I know.

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:46.219
You know, her take on the border was like hardcore.

00:54:46.579 --> 00:54:49.199
Yeah. It was hardcore. If you've been convicted

00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:51.760
of a crime, get out. You know, if you stay here,

00:54:51.860 --> 00:54:53.800
pay a stiff penalty and you have to get in line

00:54:53.800 --> 00:54:56.159
and you have to learn English and everybody cheers.

00:54:56.480 --> 00:55:00.059
Yeah. Like, that is a hardcore right -wing 2026

00:55:00.059 --> 00:55:02.679
perspective. Obama did it too in 2012. Yes, absolutely.

00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:04.860
And Obama deported more people than Trump did.

00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:07.280
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00:55:56.829 --> 00:55:59.989
it's just, I'm not saying, like, my thought is

00:55:59.989 --> 00:56:02.730
I'm always updating, I'm always updating my systems.

00:56:02.769 --> 00:56:05.150
I'm always getting told things. I always have

00:56:05.150 --> 00:56:08.329
a pre... prescribed way of looking at the world

00:56:08.329 --> 00:56:10.309
that I'll have a good conversation with someone

00:56:10.309 --> 00:56:13.130
and I'll update my system. But generally my principles

00:56:13.130 --> 00:56:16.070
are in place. And when you watch these people

00:56:16.070 --> 00:56:17.670
who get into their thirties, forties, fifties,

00:56:17.690 --> 00:56:20.469
and sixties, and their core foundational principles

00:56:20.469 --> 00:56:23.050
are changing, that really should give you cause

00:56:23.050 --> 00:56:26.130
for concern. Because like you were saying this

00:56:26.130 --> 00:56:27.750
at this time, and now you're saying this at that

00:56:27.750 --> 00:56:30.690
time. It's like generally my rubric that I don't

00:56:30.690 --> 00:56:33.289
think will change about myself is I'm fervently

00:56:33.289 --> 00:56:36.289
for the individual. And I'm fervently for truth

00:56:36.289 --> 00:56:40.849
and that we can – that the world – you should

00:56:40.849 --> 00:56:43.170
measure it and look at not what your intentions

00:56:43.170 --> 00:56:46.510
are but what the outcomes are and then evaluate

00:56:46.510 --> 00:56:49.010
the system and how it scales based on those outcomes.

00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:52.679
Those are, that's principally, if you, I try

00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:54.679
to live that standard up to myself. I fall short

00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:56.840
of that standard all the time. It's part of being

00:56:56.840 --> 00:56:58.840
a human. I try to live by that standard. And

00:56:58.840 --> 00:57:01.099
I feel like that will always be me even into

00:57:01.099 --> 00:57:04.440
my 90s. Unless something goes horribly wrong,

00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:07.400
right? Right, right. And I've pretty much been

00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:09.360
here since, you know, the past seven or eight

00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:12.219
years or so. Like even into my 30s, I wasn't

00:57:12.219 --> 00:57:16.500
quite sure who I was as a human. And, but I'm

00:57:16.500 --> 00:57:20.300
pretty, you know, steadfast in that. And the

00:57:20.300 --> 00:57:23.219
amount of opportunities and the amount of goodness

00:57:23.219 --> 00:57:26.820
in my life and my children and my home and the

00:57:26.820 --> 00:57:29.119
things I've been able to do have really been

00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:32.340
born out of that last seven years of the truth's

00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:35.139
going to be the top of the decision matrix for

00:57:35.139 --> 00:57:37.980
me, the top of the hierarchy for me. I'm going

00:57:37.980 --> 00:57:40.679
to try not to cut corners whenever I can and

00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:44.219
help good people around me. And the truth is

00:57:44.219 --> 00:57:46.500
the way that I'll organize and function myself

00:57:46.500 --> 00:57:49.679
in life and that I will try to only judge people

00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:53.019
as individuals. And the world, you know, these

00:57:53.019 --> 00:57:55.940
are Christ's teachings from 2000 years ago. And

00:57:55.940 --> 00:57:59.199
but the world for me has just opened up in a

00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:01.760
way that I could have never predicted using a

00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:04.699
very simple rubric. It's not easy, but it's simple.

00:58:07.420 --> 00:58:09.559
And this isn't me. I didn't come up with this.

00:58:09.619 --> 00:58:13.059
This is the result of watching a bunch of experiments

00:58:13.059 --> 00:58:15.780
go bad. But if people just adopted that very

00:58:15.780 --> 00:58:17.679
simple thing and just tried it for three months,

00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:19.840
you'll feel better about yourself. You'll feel

00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:21.659
better about the world. You feel better about

00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:23.920
the people approximately around you. It might

00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:28.760
make you hate the government more. If you don't

00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:30.460
hate the government, I think you're not paying

00:58:30.460 --> 00:58:33.500
attention. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean – When

00:58:33.500 --> 00:58:36.719
you were working in cyber defense, like what

00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:39.260
– Cyber offense. Cyber offense. What was the

00:58:39.260 --> 00:58:44.119
primary function? Like what did you do? So in

00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:47.739
the beginning – I have no short answers and I

00:58:47.739 --> 00:58:49.960
apologize. In the beginning – I don't like short

00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:52.340
answers. Yeah. I just – I always feel like I'm

00:58:52.340 --> 00:58:54.280
– I like a good long answer. Don't worry about

00:58:54.280 --> 00:58:56.840
that. Okay. When I joined the military, I was

00:58:56.840 --> 00:58:59.940
in signals intelligence and essentially learning

00:58:59.940 --> 00:59:02.500
the ins and outs of radars. how radars work,

00:59:02.619 --> 00:59:05.920
what they do, how they function. Did you guys

00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:08.719
ever see any weird shit, like UFO shit? I wish

00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:12.039
I had. I really do. I wish you had, too. Yeah,

00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:15.260
I really do. I was more in the signals intelligence

00:59:15.260 --> 00:59:18.239
side of the house, focusing first on electronic

00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:21.039
signals or emanations from radars, mapping them.

00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:23.639
so that if we were going to go do the ground

00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:25.880
invasion and there was going to be some air support

00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:27.920
going in first and blowing shit up, we would

00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:30.440
tell them, hey, there's a man -packable SA -7

00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:32.639
here, there's a SA -10 here, there's this here,

00:59:32.739 --> 00:59:34.280
there's there, and then telling these pilots

00:59:34.280 --> 00:59:37.260
so they didn't get shot out of the sky. Quickly,

00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:39.440
when the war kicked off, that became irrelevant

00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:42.400
because there was no... surface -to -air missiles,

00:59:42.579 --> 00:59:44.900
surface -to -surface missiles in Iraq. We had

00:59:44.900 --> 00:59:46.340
knocked them all out in the first few weeks.

00:59:46.659 --> 00:59:48.860
So then it shifted to communications intelligence.

00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:52.079
So I kind of retrained on communications intelligence,

00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:54.739
and that was at that time off of cell phones,

00:59:54.980 --> 00:59:59.460
off of push -to -talk radios, repeaters, long

00:59:59.460 --> 01:00:02.019
-haul networks, terrestrial networks, extraterrestrial

01:00:02.019 --> 01:00:03.619
networks, and what I mean by that is satellites

01:00:03.619 --> 01:00:07.800
in the sky. and doing analysis on those to try

01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:11.780
to inform what we call the common operating picture

01:00:11.780 --> 01:00:13.460
of the battlefield for a combatant commander.

01:00:13.820 --> 01:00:15.400
So a combatant commander wants to know where

01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:16.679
the bad guys are, what they're doing, what they're

01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:19.659
saying. To the amount that we could, my job was

01:00:19.659 --> 01:00:24.219
to come up with solutions and conduct passive

01:00:24.219 --> 01:00:28.260
and active signals analysis on these things and

01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:31.800
then inform the commander so that we could mitigate

01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:35.219
risk. It was all about mitigation of risk. This

01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:37.780
is 2008 or so. I'd been doing this for about

01:00:37.780 --> 01:00:41.460
seven years, eight years. And from there, it

01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:44.059
shifted to the phone's getting smart. And essentially,

01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:47.019
it went from you walking around with a 2G phone

01:00:47.019 --> 01:00:49.659
or a 3G phone that had limited compute capability

01:00:49.659 --> 01:00:53.559
to now there's robust compute capability with

01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:55.739
the advent of like the iPhone. And now it's like,

01:00:55.780 --> 01:00:57.400
well, now we've got to get after guys who are,

01:00:57.539 --> 01:00:59.840
you know. essentially walking on with a computer

01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:02.000
we could never have envisioned 20 years ago in

01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:04.239
their pocket with all this capability. Because

01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:07.420
the military and our forces that we're fighting

01:01:07.420 --> 01:01:09.639
against, it all comes down to our ability to

01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:11.800
shoot, move, and communicate. Communication being

01:01:11.800 --> 01:01:14.179
the part that I was focused on. So as the advent

01:01:14.179 --> 01:01:16.380
of the iPhone and those things came out... The

01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:18.699
Army realized we didn't have a computer network

01:01:18.699 --> 01:01:22.699
operations MOS. We didn't have an offensive cyber

01:01:22.699 --> 01:01:24.800
component. We didn't have a defensive cyber component.

01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:27.320
So we kind of – I was there at the ground floor

01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:29.400
when we were building out these new MOSs now

01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:32.039
that are all over the military. But at that time,

01:01:32.039 --> 01:01:34.920
there was a thought going into, you know, we

01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:36.739
need to have people who know how to be on -net

01:01:36.739 --> 01:01:39.900
operators. Ethical hacking, as paradoxical as

01:01:39.900 --> 01:01:42.179
that sounds. That's how the lawyers called it

01:01:42.179 --> 01:01:43.940
that. So it's hacking at the end of the day,

01:01:43.980 --> 01:01:46.000
but ethical hacking because you – got the backing

01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:49.079
of the U .S. government. And so we set up that

01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:51.619
framework and really started launching into operations,

01:01:51.820 --> 01:01:55.860
you know, 2006, 7, 8, all the way into my last

01:01:55.860 --> 01:02:00.860
deployment in 2017 or 2017. It was all focused

01:02:00.860 --> 01:02:03.420
on computer network operations and how they lash

01:02:03.420 --> 01:02:05.960
up with terrestrial networks. How do we exploit

01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:10.480
all of that was one facet of my job. And your

01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:13.579
question was, how did I? Yeah. Get into all of

01:02:13.579 --> 01:02:15.739
that. And that was that. That was the. How do

01:02:15.739 --> 01:02:17.880
you get into it? What was what? What was like?

01:02:17.980 --> 01:02:20.139
What was the operational aspect of it? Like,

01:02:20.179 --> 01:02:24.260
how did you actually what did you do? So, you

01:02:24.260 --> 01:02:26.739
know, there's there's I'll stick to terms that

01:02:26.739 --> 01:02:29.539
are more generally understood by the public,

01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:31.679
but learning how to do things like war driving.

01:02:32.420 --> 01:02:35.699
collecting on networks Wi -Fi you know endpoints

01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:39.519
cell phones understanding the ins and outs of

01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:41.440
them understanding how to do forensic analysis

01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.340
of them so after there was an operation and a

01:02:44.340 --> 01:02:46.500
bunch of gorillas have been sent in to kill a

01:02:46.500 --> 01:02:49.619
bad guy we could derive maximum intelligence

01:02:49.619 --> 01:02:52.159
value from the hand from the handset to plan

01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:56.960
other operations and so you know it would be

01:02:56.960 --> 01:03:01.139
passive monitoring of networks to inform the

01:03:01.139 --> 01:03:03.980
intelligence picture, which would lead to either

01:03:03.980 --> 01:03:07.579
combat operations or active computer network

01:03:07.579 --> 01:03:09.579
operations, where now it's like, well, there's

01:03:09.579 --> 01:03:17.239
an Iraqi or an Afghani router that hasn't been

01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:19.940
patched in three years, and we think we can either

01:03:19.940 --> 01:03:22.599
write or find a zero day, which is just an exploit

01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:28.039
of those routers, where we can muck with their

01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:29.619
router in a way where they think they're getting

01:03:29.619 --> 01:03:31.300
a good information and they're not or they're

01:03:31.300 --> 01:03:37.900
or erecting other things um to uh mitigate risk

01:03:37.900 --> 01:03:41.460
for the commander and so um that really you know

01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:44.400
exploded at that point and between that and human

01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:47.719
intelligence which is kind of the um the actual

01:03:47.719 --> 01:03:50.280
gathering of intelligence from other people you

01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:52.139
know you would call it spy or you know james

01:03:52.139 --> 01:03:53.900
bond but that's james bond was a horrible spy

01:03:53.900 --> 01:03:57.360
um was he I mean, yeah, you know, your job's

01:03:57.360 --> 01:04:00.539
to remain anonymous and you're walking into a

01:04:00.539 --> 01:04:02.500
casino and there's Goldfinger calling you by

01:04:02.500 --> 01:04:04.860
your first and last name. It's not a great look.

01:04:06.670 --> 01:04:08.829
You know, generally, you don't want to be sleeping

01:04:08.829 --> 01:04:12.630
with your sources or, you know, using a real

01:04:12.630 --> 01:04:15.210
name or whatever. So human intelligence. And

01:04:15.210 --> 01:04:18.030
then my focus for the last 10 years was how does

01:04:18.030 --> 01:04:20.190
signals intelligence computer network operations

01:04:20.190 --> 01:04:23.570
become a force multiplier for people conducting

01:04:23.570 --> 01:04:27.139
overt and clandestine operations? um throughout

01:04:27.139 --> 01:04:30.019
the theater at that time uh my you know my deployments

01:04:30.019 --> 01:04:33.480
and my time was spent in iraq afghanistan um

01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:37.079
africa northern africa and then a lot of people

01:04:37.079 --> 01:04:39.179
don't know it but we were in active combat operations

01:04:39.179 --> 01:04:42.480
in the southern philippines as well for a fair

01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:44.239
amount of time i want to maybe say seven or ten

01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:46.119
years we were doing combat operations when was

01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:48.340
this in the southern philippines my first deployment

01:04:48.340 --> 01:04:51.860
to the cell from southern philippines was uh

01:04:51.860 --> 01:04:56.480
2007 Who are we doing operations against? So

01:04:56.480 --> 01:05:00.059
there were terrorist elements down there that

01:05:00.059 --> 01:05:02.159
were traveling back and forth from Pakistan and

01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:05.300
Afghanistan. And there was a terrorist organization

01:05:05.300 --> 01:05:08.639
down there called the Abu Sayyaf Group. And there

01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:11.039
were other ones as well. Jamaah Islamiyah, I

01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:13.659
think, was the name of the other one. And they

01:05:13.659 --> 01:05:16.199
were conducting their own terrorist anti -Christian

01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:18.139
operations in the southern part of the Philippines.

01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:20.139
In the southern part of the Philippines, I don't,

01:05:20.159 --> 01:05:22.130
can I say it? Can I say the word? What do you

01:05:22.130 --> 01:05:23.889
mean? Jamie, can you pull up a map of the Philippines?

01:05:24.309 --> 01:05:26.909
Can you pull it up? Oh, say that? Say that term?

01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:28.130
Yeah, pull it up, Jamie. I've been listening

01:05:28.130 --> 01:05:31.289
to it forever. So there's what's called the autonomous

01:05:31.289 --> 01:05:34.309
region of Muslim Mindanao, which is the southern

01:05:34.309 --> 01:05:37.630
part from a place called Zamboanga down to Hulu

01:05:37.630 --> 01:05:41.159
or Holo Island. And there's a... It's a funny

01:05:41.159 --> 01:05:43.820
joke because if you zoom into Zamboanga, which

01:05:43.820 --> 01:05:45.659
is... God, look how many islands there are in

01:05:45.659 --> 01:05:47.320
the Philippines. I know. Go down to the south

01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:50.559
there. Go down right there. Zoom right there

01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:55.900
on that island. Now move to the southwest. See

01:05:55.900 --> 01:05:58.760
that penis? Mm -hmm. At the tip of that penis

01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:01.579
is called Zamboanga. Mm -hmm. All of our combat

01:06:01.579 --> 01:06:03.320
operations. Now if you zoom out a little bit

01:06:03.320 --> 01:06:08.000
more and pan more south. And zoom out just a

01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:10.500
little bit more so the joke hits. All that sperm

01:06:10.500 --> 01:06:16.019
south of the tip of the Zamboanga City, there

01:06:16.019 --> 01:06:17.599
are terrorist operations in here. Now, if you

01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:21.000
go to that main island called Sulu, there's Holo

01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:24.079
Island. That's where I was on this tiny island

01:06:24.079 --> 01:06:26.619
out in the middle of nowhere. And on that, there's

01:06:26.619 --> 01:06:28.750
a mountain. That's all the Philippines? Well,

01:06:28.769 --> 01:06:30.110
no, I mean, this is all the Philippines down

01:06:30.110 --> 01:06:32.110
here. Yeah. Wow. So this is called there's a

01:06:32.110 --> 01:06:33.570
mountain in there. I think it was called Mount

01:06:33.570 --> 01:06:36.510
Tumatoc or something like that on the near on

01:06:36.510 --> 01:06:38.269
the eastern part of the island called Luke. It's

01:06:38.269 --> 01:06:40.530
called Luke. Yeah. So there's mountains. There's

01:06:40.530 --> 01:06:42.150
a mountainous region there. There are a bunch

01:06:42.150 --> 01:06:44.349
of terrorists up there. They were killing people

01:06:44.349 --> 01:06:46.409
in the area, conducting bombings. They're getting

01:06:46.409 --> 01:06:49.329
trained. In fact, there was a guy and I believe

01:06:49.329 --> 01:06:51.849
I'm going to get his name wrong, perhaps. But

01:06:51.849 --> 01:06:54.590
I believe his name was either Insulon Haplon.

01:06:55.670 --> 01:06:59.289
Or, oh, it's Jamar Patek. Jamar Patek. He was

01:06:59.289 --> 01:07:01.949
actually arrested outside of Osama bin Laden's

01:07:01.949 --> 01:07:03.789
compound the day after he was killed. We were

01:07:03.789 --> 01:07:06.070
trying to kill him on that island. Or in and

01:07:06.070 --> 01:07:07.590
around that island is where we were trying to

01:07:07.590 --> 01:07:10.690
find him and kill him. So they're terrorist facilitators.

01:07:11.030 --> 01:07:14.630
They did the USS Cole bombing. Zoom back out.

01:07:14.690 --> 01:07:15.889
I want to see the Philippines one more time.

01:07:15.929 --> 01:07:18.750
Like all the islands. When you zoom all the way

01:07:18.750 --> 01:07:21.960
out. It's so nuts how many islands there are.

01:07:22.059 --> 01:07:24.559
It's so big. Up north in Manila is mostly the

01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:27.980
Christian population. And as you get down south,

01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:30.300
it's the autonomous region of Muslim Mindanao.

01:07:30.500 --> 01:07:33.099
And that is all of where these terrorist operations

01:07:33.099 --> 01:07:36.539
were happening. And I believe that mostly pulled

01:07:36.539 --> 01:07:38.559
out of there, there might be still some people

01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:40.719
in Zamboanga. I'm not sure anymore because it's

01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:43.260
been five years, four years since I retired.

01:07:44.030 --> 01:07:46.269
But yeah, we were doing counterinsurgency operations

01:07:46.269 --> 01:07:48.170
down there and guys died down there and their

01:07:48.170 --> 01:07:52.949
combat operations. And I was out there. I was

01:07:52.949 --> 01:07:55.030
in a tactical military intelligence battalion

01:07:55.030 --> 01:07:56.630
and I was attached to the first special forces

01:07:56.630 --> 01:07:58.909
group. And we were down there a couple of times

01:07:58.909 --> 01:08:01.329
and a lot of people don't even know about it.

01:08:01.389 --> 01:08:04.170
So, yeah, I never heard about it. Yeah. So anyway.

01:08:05.359 --> 01:08:08.099
I'm sorry. No, no. It's a sidebar, but I'm so

01:08:08.099 --> 01:08:10.380
stunned at how many islands are in the Philippines.

01:08:10.460 --> 01:08:13.159
It'll spread out. Yeah, it's it's insane. And

01:08:13.159 --> 01:08:16.220
the thing about it is, is I go to all of these

01:08:16.220 --> 01:08:18.619
little outposts in these out islands. We're always

01:08:18.619 --> 01:08:20.720
debriefing these guys. And I'm going to get these

01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:22.319
terms wrong. So I'm sure there'll be people in

01:08:22.319 --> 01:08:24.720
the comments. But I think they're called bonger

01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:26.220
eyes or something like that. But they're like

01:08:26.220 --> 01:08:28.640
these mayors of each one of these little islands.

01:08:29.430 --> 01:08:31.210
And there would be terrorists in and around those

01:08:31.210 --> 01:08:32.750
areas. And we'd try to make friends with these

01:08:32.750 --> 01:08:35.829
guys so they'd give us some information. And

01:08:35.829 --> 01:08:38.210
every one of those places was absolutely beautiful.

01:08:38.710 --> 01:08:40.350
Like you'd go there and be like, man, Hilton

01:08:40.350 --> 01:08:42.350
could turn this into something in a short order.

01:08:42.510 --> 01:08:44.250
Right. You know, when you're out of these places,

01:08:44.270 --> 01:08:47.899
beautiful beach, beautiful, lush. jungles the

01:08:47.899 --> 01:08:50.819
best swimming water nicest people too oh filipino

01:08:50.819 --> 01:08:53.039
people are some of my favorite people man like

01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:54.899
you want to talk the guys that we worked with

01:08:54.899 --> 01:08:57.060
out there they're uh scout i think they're called

01:08:57.060 --> 01:08:59.420
scout sniper scout rangers and they were special

01:08:59.420 --> 01:09:01.979
i think they were like their special forces we

01:09:01.979 --> 01:09:03.560
go to the range with these guys and show them

01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:07.520
stuff and they're the most um ride or die type

01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:09.560
of guys you'll ever meet in your life like you

01:09:09.560 --> 01:09:11.680
know so -and -so said this about you last week

01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:13.380
and i could kill him it's like no dude it's cool

01:09:13.380 --> 01:09:15.600
it's like don't worry about it like fun fact

01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:17.100
there's some of the best pool players on earth

01:09:17.100 --> 01:09:19.020
too oh really great some of the greatest pool

01:09:19.020 --> 01:09:20.680
players of all time came out of they're just

01:09:20.680 --> 01:09:22.880
great people i mean i just the people down there

01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:25.520
were fantastic and it was awful because those

01:09:25.520 --> 01:09:27.399
guys would be bombing churches christian churches

01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:30.479
and stuff like that and uh they're doing counter

01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:34.079
operate like i said counter um um intelligence

01:09:34.079 --> 01:09:35.680
operations out there doing intelligence operations

01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:38.300
collection to inform that battle picture. But

01:09:38.300 --> 01:09:40.399
those guys had direct links with Osama bin Laden

01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:43.260
and other people. I had no idea. Yeah. Right

01:09:43.260 --> 01:09:45.359
after we, like I said, I think it was, I think

01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:47.600
if you look it up, I think his name is Patek,

01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:52.560
P -A -T -E -K. And he was arrested outside of

01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:54.539
Osama bin Laden's compound. And we had been chasing

01:09:54.539 --> 01:09:56.659
him in the Philippines. Wow. Because we thought

01:09:56.659 --> 01:09:58.760
he was still down there. There was another guy

01:09:58.760 --> 01:10:00.619
that we, I believe we killed him. His name was

01:10:00.619 --> 01:10:04.810
Al -Bader Parad. But yeah, my job was not, I

01:10:04.810 --> 01:10:06.710
always say this on podcasts because the veteran

01:10:06.710 --> 01:10:09.289
community is wild right now. They love to cut

01:10:09.289 --> 01:10:10.970
each other down right now. There's something

01:10:10.970 --> 01:10:14.029
weird going on where, like obviously lying, yeah,

01:10:14.130 --> 01:10:16.329
call the people out. I prefer to call people

01:10:16.329 --> 01:10:19.989
out face to face. But I always make sure people

01:10:19.989 --> 01:10:23.130
know I was not a cool guy. Like sometimes I got

01:10:23.130 --> 01:10:25.050
to dress like one. You know, for a few years

01:10:25.050 --> 01:10:26.529
I didn't wear any uniforms and I got to grow

01:10:26.529 --> 01:10:29.149
my beard out and act like a cool guy. But I was

01:10:29.149 --> 01:10:30.970
really a nerd for cool guys. I've literally got

01:10:30.970 --> 01:10:35.010
pictures of myself. down in the holo or in Afghanistan

01:10:35.010 --> 01:10:37.869
or anywhere else and tape around my glasses and,

01:10:37.890 --> 01:10:41.550
you know, Pez dispenser and my radio and collection

01:10:41.550 --> 01:10:44.270
equipment looking like a true blue American nerd.

01:10:44.630 --> 01:10:46.510
But I was not the guy who kicked the door in.

01:10:46.529 --> 01:10:48.029
I was always the guy who pointed the door out.

01:10:48.270 --> 01:10:50.369
So I'd be safe in the Humvee in the back, you

01:10:50.369 --> 01:10:52.250
know, eat an MRE and somebody that looked like

01:10:52.250 --> 01:10:54.350
another gorilla, you know, like an Andy Stump

01:10:54.350 --> 01:10:56.670
or Tim Kennedy or someone like that. I'd be like,

01:10:56.689 --> 01:10:58.550
is that the house? I'd be like, pretty sure that's

01:10:58.550 --> 01:11:00.229
the house. You guys might want to be safe, but

01:11:00.229 --> 01:11:02.319
go ahead. I'll be in the Humvee. I'll be out

01:11:02.319 --> 01:11:04.340
here or I'll be in an airplane above, you know.

01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:09.939
And yeah, it was it was being born in North Dakota.

01:11:10.279 --> 01:11:13.380
And and, you know, my mother, single mother,

01:11:13.420 --> 01:11:17.260
after she left that first guy trailer house in

01:11:17.260 --> 01:11:19.300
the middle of this little town called Cavalier,

01:11:19.340 --> 01:11:21.859
North Dakota. I had no options. I was a horrible

01:11:21.859 --> 01:11:24.840
student. And what did it's crazy that you're

01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:26.640
so smart, but you were a horrible student. I

01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:28.399
wouldn't. Yeah, I wouldn't. I call myself curious

01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:32.720
before I'd call myself smart. But. You know,

01:11:32.720 --> 01:11:34.920
my mother, you know, I don't know if you remember,

01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:37.060
you would remember this, but maybe other people

01:11:37.060 --> 01:11:40.100
my age, you know, you get these scholastic book

01:11:40.100 --> 01:11:42.300
order forms that you bring home from school and

01:11:42.300 --> 01:11:44.680
you can order books. There always be on the back

01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:46.859
page or it always be like little cool stuff like

01:11:46.859 --> 01:11:49.399
you could get like, you know, a pair of gloves

01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:51.579
or a hat or something. Anyway, one time there

01:11:51.579 --> 01:11:55.380
was a coil radio. that you could order with an

01:11:55.380 --> 01:11:57.260
earpiece and you put this coil radio together

01:11:57.260 --> 01:12:00.159
and with an earpiece no battery it was just the

01:12:00.159 --> 01:12:03.060
electromagnetic radiation would would would um

01:12:03.060 --> 01:12:05.779
activate the coil and the coil would you could

01:12:05.779 --> 01:12:09.039
listen to radio chatter really with no battery

01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:11.760
yeah yeah just tiny little little radio how did

01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:14.380
it what was the power the electromagnetic radiation

01:12:14.380 --> 01:12:17.239
and you would just kind of like a record of uh

01:12:17.239 --> 01:12:21.250
like you know how you You hit a record. Electromagnetic

01:12:21.250 --> 01:12:23.189
radiation would hit the coil and the coil would

01:12:23.189 --> 01:12:25.930
feed up to an amplifier or up to an earpiece.

01:12:26.010 --> 01:12:27.810
And the earpiece, you could hear chatter. Did

01:12:27.810 --> 01:12:30.170
the earpiece have a battery? I don't think anything

01:12:30.170 --> 01:12:32.829
had a battery on it. I think it was just a...

01:12:32.829 --> 01:12:35.109
Wow. I could be mistaken, but I don't believe

01:12:35.109 --> 01:12:37.470
it was. Powered by electromagnetic radiation.

01:12:37.689 --> 01:12:39.930
Yeah. I mean, you can look it up, Jamie, if you

01:12:39.930 --> 01:12:41.890
want. Sorry to say that again, but... Tighten

01:12:41.890 --> 01:12:43.810
that thing down. That thing's driving me crazy.

01:12:43.810 --> 01:12:46.210
Yeah, sorry. This thing. Like here or here? Right

01:12:46.210 --> 01:12:48.449
here. Look at my finger. It's right here. Yeah,

01:12:48.510 --> 01:12:50.210
I've been meaning to do that, like, literally

01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:52.489
when everybody uses this fucking thing. It's

01:12:52.489 --> 01:12:54.069
wobbling around, ready to fall off. Yeah, but

01:12:54.069 --> 01:12:56.930
if you look up coil radio with small earpiece,

01:12:57.170 --> 01:12:58.710
I could be wrong. I don't remember there being

01:12:58.710 --> 01:13:01.770
a battery on it. Electromagnetic radiation powered

01:13:01.770 --> 01:13:04.329
it. That's bananas. Yeah, so kind of like a...

01:13:04.329 --> 01:13:06.170
Same thing with, like, you know, not the same

01:13:06.170 --> 01:13:08.930
wattage, but a microwave, right? Sends power

01:13:08.930 --> 01:13:10.470
through the air. Right, but it uses... Or DC.

01:13:10.890 --> 01:13:13.510
But it uses power to, like, send it. Yeah, but

01:13:13.510 --> 01:13:17.149
I could be wrong. But at any rate, that was the

01:13:17.149 --> 01:13:19.199
first time I... I got a radio and I was hearing

01:13:19.199 --> 01:13:21.760
things and I'd put it together and I'm listening

01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:25.260
to things. Like what kind of things? HF radio,

01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:28.039
VHF radio, people talking, that type of stuff.

01:13:28.659 --> 01:13:32.260
And then I found out how to get an antenna to

01:13:32.260 --> 01:13:34.340
make the antenna larger and started ordering

01:13:34.340 --> 01:13:37.060
auxiliary pieces for it. And then what really

01:13:37.060 --> 01:13:40.560
changed me was my mother and I would clean houses.

01:13:41.020 --> 01:13:42.960
She was a waitress, but we also would go around

01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:44.340
and clean houses. And there was a lawyer that

01:13:44.340 --> 01:13:47.750
we worked for. His name was Phil Culp. And he

01:13:47.750 --> 01:13:52.770
had an old 286SX IBM. And it was just sitting

01:13:52.770 --> 01:13:54.909
in his basement. And I told my mom, I was like,

01:13:54.930 --> 01:13:56.329
hey, if I clean for like a month, can I have

01:13:56.329 --> 01:13:58.250
that computer? Like he doesn't use it. He's got

01:13:58.250 --> 01:14:01.510
a new 486 up in his place here. And he instantly

01:14:01.510 --> 01:14:03.170
said I could have it. And then that started me

01:14:03.170 --> 01:14:05.369
down the computer networking realm. And like,

01:14:05.390 --> 01:14:07.810
look, how could I get this 286 to act like a

01:14:07.810 --> 01:14:09.670
386? Or how could I force it to run Windows?

01:14:09.829 --> 01:14:11.449
Or how do I update the memory? How do I do these

01:14:11.449 --> 01:14:13.710
things? In this little town, Edinburgh, North

01:14:13.710 --> 01:14:16.050
Dakota, there was a guy who had a computer store

01:14:16.050 --> 01:14:18.310
in a basement of an old general store. And his

01:14:18.310 --> 01:14:21.279
name was Jeff Munsobraten. And I would go there

01:14:21.279 --> 01:14:22.960
and ask them questions about computers and just

01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:25.260
start learning, like, ins and outs on how do

01:14:25.260 --> 01:14:27.840
I update the RAM, how do I get memory better,

01:14:27.939 --> 01:14:31.060
how do I augment the storage, how can I force

01:14:31.060 --> 01:14:33.119
this thing to run Windows 3 .1 so I could have

01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:36.739
a GUI instead of using a command line. GUI mean

01:14:36.739 --> 01:14:38.619
graphic user interface? Graphic user interface,

01:14:38.840 --> 01:14:42.399
yeah. Yeah, sorry. That's okay. And so that kind

01:14:42.399 --> 01:14:46.729
of started me on that. For me, like I said, I

01:14:46.729 --> 01:14:48.649
had all kinds of problems with attention deficit

01:14:48.649 --> 01:14:51.029
disorder and not being able to pay attention.

01:14:51.229 --> 01:14:55.729
That was the only time I would go for it. I don't

01:14:55.729 --> 01:15:00.140
believe in ADHD. I might be wrong. I think it's

01:15:00.140 --> 01:15:02.600
a superpower. I mean, it's certainly, I remember

01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:04.800
I would spend two days working on a problem and

01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:06.760
not sleeping. That's what I'm saying. I think

01:15:06.760 --> 01:15:08.680
it's a superpower. I think it just keeps you

01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:10.859
from being interested in things you're not interested

01:15:10.859 --> 01:15:13.640
in. Yeah. I have a theory on that too that I

01:15:13.640 --> 01:15:16.659
can get into after, but that started me down

01:15:16.659 --> 01:15:18.479
that road. But in school, I couldn't pay attention.

01:15:18.579 --> 01:15:20.859
Me neither. There was this teacher. I always

01:15:20.859 --> 01:15:22.520
tell this story. It's a great teacher. She's

01:15:22.520 --> 01:15:26.369
still around. Her name is Connie Trenbeth. And

01:15:26.369 --> 01:15:28.689
she was my English teacher or literature teacher

01:15:28.689 --> 01:15:30.430
or something like that. She might not even remember

01:15:30.430 --> 01:15:32.149
the story, but here I am telling it on your podcast.

01:15:32.390 --> 01:15:35.829
I remember it. She kept me after class once and

01:15:35.829 --> 01:15:38.609
she goes, you know, I knew your dad, Bill. And,

01:15:38.609 --> 01:15:43.109
you know, your uncles were all smart. My great

01:15:43.109 --> 01:15:46.109
uncle has an engineering wing of a school named

01:15:46.109 --> 01:15:49.010
after him out in western North Dakota. And she

01:15:49.010 --> 01:15:50.810
goes, all these guys were thinkers and your dad

01:15:50.810 --> 01:15:52.550
did all this great stuff and built all this stuff.

01:15:54.070 --> 01:15:55.430
Essentially, what she was telling me is you're

01:15:55.430 --> 01:16:00.310
a waste of life. Like, all you do is you come

01:16:00.310 --> 01:16:02.930
in here, you disrupt the class, you upset people.

01:16:03.329 --> 01:16:05.649
No one can talk. Sounds like me. You're trying

01:16:05.649 --> 01:16:08.470
to dominate every conversation. But when, you

01:16:08.470 --> 01:16:10.569
know, you had written one paper on something

01:16:10.569 --> 01:16:12.329
that interested you, and I don't remember what

01:16:12.329 --> 01:16:14.270
it was. And she's like, that was a wonderful

01:16:14.270 --> 01:16:16.590
paper. She's like, if you could just do that

01:16:16.590 --> 01:16:21.949
every time. And I was not hearing it. Like I

01:16:21.949 --> 01:16:23.409
remember the conversation because I actually

01:16:23.409 --> 01:16:25.909
remember, I think she said waste of life. I think

01:16:25.909 --> 01:16:27.850
she actually said that. Like you're wasting,

01:16:27.989 --> 01:16:32.229
like you're obviously, my CPU clocks high. I'm

01:16:32.229 --> 01:16:34.210
always thinking even when I'm not thinking and

01:16:34.210 --> 01:16:36.010
even as we're sitting here talking, I'm thinking

01:16:36.010 --> 01:16:38.229
about other things or stuff I want to do when

01:16:38.229 --> 01:16:39.930
I get back to my computer or stuff I want to

01:16:39.930 --> 01:16:44.029
do for my business. And so I joined the military

01:16:44.029 --> 01:16:48.270
and the absurdity of life is this. I joined to

01:16:48.270 --> 01:16:50.699
be a military policeman. which I absolutely would

01:16:50.699 --> 01:16:53.699
have hated. All of them got turned into infantry

01:16:53.699 --> 01:16:56.140
people or would stand gate guard, which is a

01:16:56.140 --> 01:16:57.739
needed function in the military, but it doesn't

01:16:57.739 --> 01:17:00.500
apply to my personality. But when I went to the

01:17:00.500 --> 01:17:02.880
recruiter station out in Minneapolis, I think

01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:05.640
it was, I was a bonehead and I forgot my driver's

01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:08.079
license. And they're like, well, and I was supposed

01:17:08.079 --> 01:17:10.619
to leave. And at this time I had dumped my girlfriend,

01:17:10.819 --> 01:17:13.239
told everyone goodbye. I'd wiped the dust off

01:17:13.239 --> 01:17:18.210
my boots, like left Cavalier, North Dakota. I

01:17:18.210 --> 01:17:22.390
was like, hey, I'm not going back. So whatever

01:17:22.390 --> 01:17:25.210
we got to do right now. And he's like, well,

01:17:25.329 --> 01:17:27.649
we can you can go home, get your license because

01:17:27.649 --> 01:17:32.050
the MEPS station was in Minneapolis. Was it Fargo?

01:17:32.050 --> 01:17:33.670
Doesn't matter. It was five, six, seven hours

01:17:33.670 --> 01:17:35.590
away. And they're like, well, you're not leaving

01:17:35.590 --> 01:17:39.609
today without a driver's license. So I looked

01:17:39.609 --> 01:17:40.869
at my recruiter and I was like, I don't know

01:17:40.869 --> 01:17:42.750
what job you need to get me into, but it needs

01:17:42.750 --> 01:17:44.569
to be a different job. And they're like, well,

01:17:44.630 --> 01:17:46.500
you scored. you know, exceptionally high in your

01:17:46.500 --> 01:17:49.779
general technical part of your ASVAB, which is

01:17:49.779 --> 01:17:51.659
like understanding machines and objects and stuff.

01:17:52.460 --> 01:17:54.859
So we could get you into this like Intel job.

01:17:55.390 --> 01:17:57.130
where you'd learn about radars and stuff. And

01:17:57.130 --> 01:17:59.430
that immediately clicked for me. And then he's

01:17:59.430 --> 01:18:01.670
like, well, we got to go brief you in this SCIF

01:18:01.670 --> 01:18:04.210
room. There's a, you know, secure compartmented

01:18:04.210 --> 01:18:06.649
information facility. There's only one guy who's

01:18:06.649 --> 01:18:08.430
got a clearance and he can brief you on the job.

01:18:08.529 --> 01:18:09.829
And if you want that job, then you can leave

01:18:09.829 --> 01:18:12.069
tomorrow. I instantly started hearing like the

01:18:12.069 --> 01:18:18.489
James Bond music, you know. And so they walked

01:18:18.489 --> 01:18:20.789
me in this back place and, you know. nothing

01:18:20.789 --> 01:18:23.350
super crazy and briefed me up on the job. And

01:18:23.350 --> 01:18:24.789
I went back out and I said, yeah, this is actually

01:18:24.789 --> 01:18:27.630
the job for me. So the absurdity of life is me

01:18:27.630 --> 01:18:29.569
forgetting my driver's license. When I was 16,

01:18:29.670 --> 01:18:33.369
I was 16 when I signed up, um, maybe 17. No,

01:18:33.409 --> 01:18:35.850
I was turning 17 that December when I signed

01:18:35.850 --> 01:18:39.789
up for the military. Um, I can connect with a

01:18:39.789 --> 01:18:41.609
string to forgetting my driver's license to being

01:18:41.609 --> 01:18:44.409
here with you today. You can, you can. sign up

01:18:44.409 --> 01:18:47.510
when you're 16? I think I was turning 17. You

01:18:47.510 --> 01:18:48.710
can sign up when, I didn't even know you could

01:18:48.710 --> 01:18:49.970
sign up when you're 17. Yeah, I had signed my

01:18:49.970 --> 01:18:53.510
delayed entry program thing and I left a little

01:18:53.510 --> 01:18:55.850
bit before my 18th birthday. So I just graduated

01:18:55.850 --> 01:18:59.369
from high school. But yeah, you can sign up when

01:18:59.369 --> 01:19:01.050
you're 16, I believe, as long as your parents

01:19:01.050 --> 01:19:02.689
sign the waiver. My mother signed the waiver.

01:19:02.750 --> 01:19:05.829
She was happy to get me out of the trailer. So

01:19:05.829 --> 01:19:09.310
yeah, I was 17, almost 18 when I left. You can

01:19:09.310 --> 01:19:11.010
make a radio out of that. Yeah, right there.

01:19:11.050 --> 01:19:13.090
So that's all the pieces. They call it a crystal

01:19:13.090 --> 01:19:15.149
radio. Yeah, I was going to say crystal controlled.

01:19:15.470 --> 01:19:17.569
That's a radio? What? There it is. That's actually

01:19:17.569 --> 01:19:21.529
the exact thing. That is almost exactly what

01:19:21.529 --> 01:19:23.390
it looks like. Slinky made it? Well, they bought

01:19:23.390 --> 01:19:27.270
the Slinky brand now. What? There's a bunch of

01:19:27.270 --> 01:19:30.170
these all over the internet, yeah. Wow. Make

01:19:30.170 --> 01:19:32.829
your own working radio without batteries. Yeah,

01:19:32.829 --> 01:19:34.729
and I was going to say crystal controlled radio

01:19:34.729 --> 01:19:38.289
because it uses a crystal diode on it. Would

01:19:38.289 --> 01:19:40.069
you say Tesla coil, Jamie? Yeah, it's a Tesla

01:19:40.069 --> 01:19:43.270
coil. This guy's explaining it. So this thing

01:19:43.270 --> 01:19:45.329
has a kind of cool tool. Let me find this thing.

01:19:46.069 --> 01:19:48.750
A rocket radio, they called, which is like further

01:19:48.750 --> 01:19:51.409
development, this thing. It attached to a phone.

01:19:53.390 --> 01:19:55.810
So you plug that onto a phone cable. There's

01:19:55.810 --> 01:19:59.109
a picture of it somewhere on here, but it explains

01:19:59.109 --> 01:20:03.100
like you're picking up. There you go. Wow. No

01:20:03.100 --> 01:20:06.539
power. No battery or current needed, hence no

01:20:06.539 --> 01:20:09.180
operating expense and long life. Yeah, this is

01:20:09.180 --> 01:20:11.600
almost... It fits onto a phone. What year was

01:20:11.600 --> 01:20:16.399
this? Man, this is old. Yeah. So it also shows

01:20:16.399 --> 01:20:17.960
here, this is like you're picking up power from

01:20:17.960 --> 01:20:20.960
a radio tower. Yeah. Wow. And they're powerful,

01:20:21.039 --> 01:20:22.899
the signal. This is more like what they're paying

01:20:22.899 --> 01:20:24.779
for with the FCC. The more powerful your radio

01:20:24.779 --> 01:20:27.760
tower, the longer and more people you can reach.

01:20:28.260 --> 01:20:32.520
Crazy. That has no battery. And that's also why

01:20:32.520 --> 01:20:34.600
some radio signals come in very well on your

01:20:34.600 --> 01:20:36.439
radio and some don't. They sound like dog shit.

01:20:36.659 --> 01:20:40.439
Yeah. Weak power. Yeah. And then the frequency

01:20:40.439 --> 01:20:42.979
modulation, like amplitude modulation isn't as

01:20:42.979 --> 01:20:44.979
efficient as frequency modulation when it comes

01:20:44.979 --> 01:20:50.060
to for the voc order to produce sound. Amplitude

01:20:50.060 --> 01:20:52.859
modulation travels farther, but it doesn't have

01:20:52.859 --> 01:20:56.430
the. The amount of information, it's not modulated.

01:20:56.569 --> 01:20:59.130
The carrier wave can't be modulated with as much

01:20:59.130 --> 01:21:01.409
information as you need, whereas frequency modulation

01:21:01.409 --> 01:21:04.310
is much quicker, megahertz, and you can amplitude

01:21:04.310 --> 01:21:07.590
and add more sound or more information, which

01:21:07.590 --> 01:21:09.569
is why it sounds better. So FM sounds better,

01:21:09.609 --> 01:21:11.689
but it doesn't travel as far. Right. AM sounds

01:21:11.689 --> 01:21:14.529
worse. When I was training people in the military

01:21:14.529 --> 01:21:17.090
on this, I would use the analogy of if a party

01:21:17.090 --> 01:21:18.710
is happening next door, you can hear the bass

01:21:18.710 --> 01:21:21.310
music, but you can't hear the treble. You can

01:21:21.310 --> 01:21:23.640
hear the bass music because... that frequency

01:21:23.640 --> 01:21:25.840
travels farther because it's lower in their frequency

01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:30.000
band. But you can hear the treble because, or

01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:31.579
you can't hear the treble, I'm sorry, because

01:21:31.579 --> 01:21:33.960
it's higher frequency and there's more modulation.

01:21:34.560 --> 01:21:37.060
And so it disperses quicker and you can't hear

01:21:37.060 --> 01:21:38.859
it as well. And it's the same thing with like

01:21:38.859 --> 01:21:41.520
VLF comms coming off of like a submarine can

01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:44.520
travel underwater for a very long ways, but you

01:21:44.520 --> 01:21:46.920
can't put as much information in them as you

01:21:46.920 --> 01:21:49.880
could if you were doing, you know, VHF or UHF

01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:53.289
comms where there's lots of modulation. So it's

01:21:53.289 --> 01:21:57.369
the dispersal. And a lot of my mid part of my

01:21:57.369 --> 01:21:59.430
career was explaining this stuff to military

01:21:59.430 --> 01:22:01.890
guys who were trying to understand like here's

01:22:01.890 --> 01:22:03.909
how a cell phone works and this is how frequency

01:22:03.909 --> 01:22:06.369
works and this is how we send information and

01:22:06.369 --> 01:22:12.029
just kind of demystifying how a GSM network works.

01:22:12.210 --> 01:22:13.750
One of the things that I wanted to ask you about

01:22:13.750 --> 01:22:18.750
that is when new technology is emerging, how

01:22:18.750 --> 01:22:27.859
– How do you stay ahead of the ability to extract

01:22:27.859 --> 01:22:31.439
information from this technology, hack into networks

01:22:31.439 --> 01:22:35.720
before people understand the capability? You

01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:37.520
really can't. You really can't? And that's the

01:22:37.520 --> 01:22:39.800
beauty of the free market is that the innovation

01:22:39.800 --> 01:22:42.960
to perform the function that you want someone

01:22:42.960 --> 01:22:45.779
to pay for will always move faster than your

01:22:45.779 --> 01:22:49.050
ability to exploit. the technology. Then how

01:22:49.050 --> 01:22:52.529
do you explain things like Pegasus? Well, I mean,

01:22:52.550 --> 01:22:55.850
something like Pegasus, well, first off... Explain

01:22:55.850 --> 01:22:58.750
Pegasus to people that don't know. It was a persistent

01:22:58.750 --> 01:23:02.489
implant on cell phones for people. Initially,

01:23:02.630 --> 01:23:04.890
you had to click it. It was a clickable exploit.

01:23:04.890 --> 01:23:06.970
Initially, it was a click, and then it became

01:23:06.970 --> 01:23:09.010
a non -click exploit. So in other words, you

01:23:09.010 --> 01:23:11.130
had to interact with something on the phone in

01:23:11.130 --> 01:23:13.109
order to initialize and install the implant.

01:23:14.500 --> 01:23:17.199
But the reason why it was so good is because

01:23:17.199 --> 01:23:23.560
it wasn't stored in the usual areas that you

01:23:23.560 --> 01:23:25.300
would want a persistent implant or where you

01:23:25.300 --> 01:23:27.659
would have a persistent implant. For instance,

01:23:27.859 --> 01:23:30.760
you might want to put it in the application layer

01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:32.899
of an app or something like that where there's

01:23:32.899 --> 01:23:35.960
a binary that can run and execute commands or

01:23:35.960 --> 01:23:40.979
functions. And so I won't get into the very specifics

01:23:40.979 --> 01:23:43.239
of where and how they did this because I'm not

01:23:43.239 --> 01:23:45.420
sure if I got this information from the government

01:23:45.420 --> 01:23:47.840
or not, so I won't say it. But they stored it

01:23:47.840 --> 01:23:50.699
in a place where it wasn't normal. And you can

01:23:50.699 --> 01:23:53.939
read papers on your own and look at the forensics

01:23:53.939 --> 01:23:56.359
of it and how the actual implant was executed.

01:23:56.920 --> 01:23:59.600
But it essentially allowed people to own your

01:23:59.600 --> 01:24:06.260
phone. the kind of implant I only dreamed of

01:24:06.260 --> 01:24:08.279
when I was helping develop my own plants implants

01:24:08.279 --> 01:24:11.439
in the military, mostly what we would rely on

01:24:11.439 --> 01:24:14.720
is, um, you know, zero day architecture and looking

01:24:14.720 --> 01:24:17.079
for something in a phone that either they hadn't

01:24:17.079 --> 01:24:18.960
patched or that the phone that you were looking

01:24:18.960 --> 01:24:22.000
at hadn't been patched. So phones, as they have

01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:24.239
their own red teams are going through the phone

01:24:24.239 --> 01:24:26.199
for their own cause they want to sell a product

01:24:26.199 --> 01:24:28.039
that people will use and people won't use stuff

01:24:28.039 --> 01:24:29.960
that can get hacked. So they'll do their own

01:24:29.960 --> 01:24:32.819
red teaming and they'll discover like, Oh, you

01:24:32.819 --> 01:24:35.380
know, we, On this router we developed, we left

01:24:35.380 --> 01:24:37.100
this port open and it shouldn't have been open.

01:24:37.319 --> 01:24:39.020
So now we're going to write a patch that will

01:24:39.020 --> 01:24:40.939
close that port so that this port is no longer

01:24:40.939 --> 01:24:43.079
accessible by a guy like me. So I can't go in

01:24:43.079 --> 01:24:45.300
there and do something to this particular type

01:24:45.300 --> 01:24:47.520
of router. Another great thing, I'll say something

01:24:47.520 --> 01:24:49.279
good about the administration. They're doing

01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:50.739
some stuff right now to make sure that we're

01:24:50.739 --> 01:24:53.539
getting rid of Chinese technology and Chinese

01:24:53.539 --> 01:24:59.359
routers. And there's a widespread network of...

01:25:00.650 --> 01:25:02.930
The PLA has a, and I can't remember the name

01:25:02.930 --> 01:25:05.710
of the botnet, but they essentially implanted

01:25:05.710 --> 01:25:08.550
a bunch of old unpatched routers to get access

01:25:08.550 --> 01:25:13.850
to government and business proximal people. And

01:25:13.850 --> 01:25:17.229
it was widespread and huge. And it looked like

01:25:17.229 --> 01:25:20.409
to me, I haven't read this anywhere, but if I

01:25:20.409 --> 01:25:22.329
were looking at this implant and how it was done,

01:25:22.569 --> 01:25:24.890
they were trying to really cause some trouble.

01:25:25.570 --> 01:25:28.310
It was being placed at critical places. Think

01:25:28.310 --> 01:25:31.510
power. Think energy. Think banking. Like they

01:25:31.510 --> 01:25:34.770
really wanted to cause some ruckus. And I have

01:25:34.770 --> 01:25:36.710
not been part of this administration, so I'm

01:25:36.710 --> 01:25:38.510
not saying anything classified for those of you

01:25:38.510 --> 01:25:41.510
who are listening. And so but there was a decision

01:25:41.510 --> 01:25:43.289
to say, hey, we need to make sure that these

01:25:43.289 --> 01:25:45.369
things get patched and also that we're not bringing

01:25:45.369 --> 01:25:49.130
in. architecture from the overseas because they

01:25:49.130 --> 01:25:50.689
don't play by the same rules that we at least

01:25:50.689 --> 01:25:52.729
say we play by. That's why they banned Huawei

01:25:52.729 --> 01:25:56.350
devices. Oh, yeah. And ZTE. Yeah. Huawei had

01:25:56.350 --> 01:25:58.710
a phone that I was really interested in back

01:25:58.710 --> 01:26:02.210
in the day. They had a Porsche design, had partnered

01:26:02.210 --> 01:26:05.609
with Huawei and made this insane Android phone

01:26:05.609 --> 01:26:07.729
with like the best camera, the best battery.

01:26:07.770 --> 01:26:10.250
It was like really high level. And I was like.

01:26:10.470 --> 01:26:12.170
going to buy it. And then all of a sudden they

01:26:12.170 --> 01:26:14.010
banned all the Huawei phones. And I was like,

01:26:14.050 --> 01:26:16.569
what's going on? And then, you know, I'd heard

01:26:16.569 --> 01:26:18.409
some people say, oh, they're just trying to stop

01:26:18.409 --> 01:26:21.189
competition. It's like American companies are

01:26:21.189 --> 01:26:24.130
trying to stop it. And then I went into it deeper

01:26:24.130 --> 01:26:26.789
and I said, no, it seems like there's third party

01:26:26.789 --> 01:26:29.449
input on some of the routers and some of their

01:26:29.449 --> 01:26:34.989
network devices that they had engineered in order

01:26:34.989 --> 01:26:38.310
to be able to access them by third party. And

01:26:38.310 --> 01:26:42.430
this Because of whatever, lack of understanding,

01:26:42.750 --> 01:26:46.350
lack of knowledge of how these things are constructed,

01:26:46.510 --> 01:26:48.810
the people that purchased them weren't aware

01:26:48.810 --> 01:26:50.789
of them. And these things had gotten into place.

01:26:50.869 --> 01:26:53.090
And they had gotten into place in universities.

01:26:53.210 --> 01:26:56.149
They got into place in military establishments.

01:26:56.170 --> 01:26:58.630
They were using them in cell phone towers that

01:26:58.630 --> 01:27:02.569
people had inadvertently bought from China. And

01:27:02.569 --> 01:27:05.170
that's really I mean, I can tell you firsthand

01:27:05.170 --> 01:27:07.350
from having done some other forensic exploitation

01:27:07.350 --> 01:27:09.350
on this stuff. Another large part of my career

01:27:09.350 --> 01:27:11.449
I didn't talk about was just on mobile forensics

01:27:11.449 --> 01:27:14.710
and media forensics, which is essentially you

01:27:14.710 --> 01:27:17.390
think of like CSI Miami or CSI, whatever the

01:27:17.390 --> 01:27:19.850
city was. There's a crime. Someone was killed.

01:27:20.029 --> 01:27:21.989
You have forensics that are doing forensics on

01:27:21.989 --> 01:27:24.250
like blood and fingerprints and blood splatter

01:27:24.250 --> 01:27:26.369
and all that stuff. There's a whole another part

01:27:26.369 --> 01:27:29.029
of that same forensics branch that focuses on

01:27:29.029 --> 01:27:31.689
media forensics. What was deleted off this phone

01:27:31.689 --> 01:27:34.170
at one point? What remains on this phone? What

01:27:34.170 --> 01:27:36.310
was it being used for? I would do this in the

01:27:36.310 --> 01:27:38.149
military so that when we did do an operation

01:27:38.149 --> 01:27:40.310
and I was part of some of the largest ones ever

01:27:40.310 --> 01:27:43.869
done out in Afghanistan, there would be treasure

01:27:43.869 --> 01:27:47.210
troves of phones and all of these computers and

01:27:47.210 --> 01:27:49.340
stuff like that. And it was my job. And I had

01:27:49.340 --> 01:27:52.979
a great team that worked for me. In my deployment

01:27:52.979 --> 01:27:56.520
in 2015, we would go in afterwards, gather up

01:27:56.520 --> 01:27:59.760
all of this stuff, and the task force commander

01:27:59.760 --> 01:28:02.319
would literally be standing by, and we'd say,

01:28:02.439 --> 01:28:04.600
here's the intelligence that we've derived. Here's

01:28:04.600 --> 01:28:07.520
the multi -point analysis. It was on this hard

01:28:07.520 --> 01:28:09.500
drive. It was here. It was here. There's a bad

01:28:09.500 --> 01:28:11.739
guy place out here. And those guys would be rolling

01:28:11.739 --> 01:28:14.100
within moments after the last operation. Some

01:28:14.100 --> 01:28:16.079
operations we'd do where we'd be rolling one

01:28:16.079 --> 01:28:17.960
after another target because we were getting

01:28:17.960 --> 01:28:21.199
really good at media forensics. and the intelligence

01:28:21.199 --> 01:28:23.140
that was there, and then getting into active

01:28:23.140 --> 01:28:25.119
media forensics, which is a different discipline,

01:28:25.239 --> 01:28:28.279
but essentially, I can get into that later if

01:28:28.279 --> 01:28:32.960
you want to, but launching and doing these follow

01:28:32.960 --> 01:28:35.800
-on operations off, dumping the binary from a

01:28:35.800 --> 01:28:37.699
phone and examining it at the ones and zeros

01:28:37.699 --> 01:28:40.279
level to say everything that was going on with

01:28:40.279 --> 01:28:42.340
this thing, or if it was a really high, like

01:28:42.340 --> 01:28:44.220
the organization that I worked for at that time.

01:28:44.940 --> 01:28:47.359
did the analysis of the Osama bin Laden media.

01:28:47.800 --> 01:28:51.659
And on that media, we're doing far more than

01:28:51.659 --> 01:28:54.140
we would for another piece of media in that we're

01:28:54.140 --> 01:28:57.100
X -raying it and we're looking at maybe what

01:28:57.100 --> 01:28:59.579
the disk looked like before or what was destroyed

01:28:59.579 --> 01:29:02.140
or reconstructing things, spending millions of

01:29:02.140 --> 01:29:04.020
dollars on that intelligence analysis because

01:29:04.020 --> 01:29:06.239
we wanted to fully understand everything that

01:29:06.239 --> 01:29:07.699
this guy was involved in and what he was doing

01:29:07.699 --> 01:29:10.569
and where he was and who he was talking to. And

01:29:10.569 --> 01:29:12.510
so that was another part of my career that I

01:29:12.510 --> 01:29:14.949
did for about five years or so. What was going

01:29:14.949 --> 01:29:17.050
on with the Huawei phones? Like, what were they

01:29:17.050 --> 01:29:21.149
doing with them? I mean, some of them were coming

01:29:21.149 --> 01:29:23.069
out implanted. In other words, there was access

01:29:23.069 --> 01:29:26.170
built in for a foreign actor. And then in other

01:29:26.170 --> 01:29:28.989
terms, other places with routers, with the ZTE

01:29:28.989 --> 01:29:31.470
stuff, there were just things that you would

01:29:31.470 --> 01:29:34.420
patch or that you would fix. As a company who

01:29:34.420 --> 01:29:36.239
is trying to protect the consumer and create

01:29:36.239 --> 01:29:38.300
a product that would people you would use and

01:29:38.300 --> 01:29:40.479
they weren't doing it. So they were creating

01:29:40.479 --> 01:29:43.560
persistent backdoors either by actively placing

01:29:43.560 --> 01:29:45.579
code on there that would allow, you know, root

01:29:45.579 --> 01:29:49.000
access or they were leaving things open, especially

01:29:49.000 --> 01:29:51.439
in Africa. Like the work that, you know, I was

01:29:51.439 --> 01:29:53.859
working in Africa. The Chinese were just owning

01:29:53.859 --> 01:29:56.300
Africa. They were just giving them communications

01:29:56.300 --> 01:29:59.720
infrastructure. And they were doing that because

01:29:59.720 --> 01:30:01.859
they wanted their resources and they wanted to

01:30:01.859 --> 01:30:03.220
know what these people were saying. and what

01:30:03.220 --> 01:30:08.739
they were doing. And so I'm as free market as

01:30:08.739 --> 01:30:10.520
a guy can get. I want the best people building

01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:12.380
the best products, and I want everyone to be

01:30:12.380 --> 01:30:15.220
able to compete. But in that case, I would never

01:30:15.220 --> 01:30:18.420
own a Huawei or a ZTE or anything else. On a

01:30:18.420 --> 01:30:20.439
consumer level, what were they doing with those

01:30:20.439 --> 01:30:23.220
phones? Like if they had imported them to the

01:30:23.220 --> 01:30:25.439
United States, if they didn't have that ban,

01:30:25.659 --> 01:30:28.260
what would have been the issue? Getting access

01:30:28.260 --> 01:30:32.170
to, you know... any number of people that the

01:30:32.170 --> 01:30:34.449
Chinese really want access to everybody, but

01:30:34.449 --> 01:30:36.310
you could start at the topical level of just

01:30:36.310 --> 01:30:39.590
saying, you know, getting Joe Rogan to use his

01:30:39.590 --> 01:30:42.390
ETE would be, that'd be my wet dream as a guy

01:30:42.390 --> 01:30:43.770
who used to do this work back in the day. Cause

01:30:43.770 --> 01:30:45.289
you're talking to the president or you're talking

01:30:45.289 --> 01:30:47.750
to this guy or that guy. And I can build out

01:30:47.750 --> 01:30:50.550
a network of understanding who you're in contact

01:30:50.550 --> 01:30:52.430
with, who you're talking to, what's being talked

01:30:52.430 --> 01:30:55.119
about, but then also finding out. you know, this

01:30:55.119 --> 01:30:57.039
person's phone number and now doing a deep dive

01:30:57.039 --> 01:30:59.760
on there. So it's really about, you know, getting

01:30:59.760 --> 01:31:02.420
all of that data and constructing an analyst

01:31:02.420 --> 01:31:05.380
notebook, essentially outline of who's talking

01:31:05.380 --> 01:31:08.260
to who, who do we need to implant. But it's for

01:31:08.260 --> 01:31:09.819
business as well. Like they're really trying

01:31:09.819 --> 01:31:11.680
to go, they would want this in the hands of somebody

01:31:11.680 --> 01:31:13.079
who's in charge of a business because they want

01:31:13.079 --> 01:31:15.640
their IP. They would want this in soldier's hands

01:31:15.640 --> 01:31:17.119
so they would know deployment dates or who's

01:31:17.119 --> 01:31:19.319
going where and who's doing what. They want this

01:31:19.319 --> 01:31:22.659
in routers because routers are usually the most

01:31:22.659 --> 01:31:25.539
unpatched piece of technology. in that, especially

01:31:25.539 --> 01:31:27.840
these days, they're more automated patching.

01:31:28.239 --> 01:31:31.300
But back in the day, you had to manually update

01:31:31.300 --> 01:31:32.859
a router. And if you didn't, well, then you had

01:31:32.859 --> 01:31:34.880
potential exploits that were sitting on that

01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:37.699
router where I could gain access to the router

01:31:37.699 --> 01:31:39.920
in your home, or I could gain access to a BGP

01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:42.060
router, which is like a border gateway, which

01:31:42.060 --> 01:31:44.699
is moving all of the internet data, or I could

01:31:44.699 --> 01:31:47.359
get access to a microwave terminal. If you look

01:31:47.359 --> 01:31:49.579
at a cell phone, they've got the microwave terminals

01:31:49.579 --> 01:31:51.380
on there that are sending information in between

01:31:51.380 --> 01:31:55.310
them. If those are Chinese that are either being

01:31:55.310 --> 01:31:57.789
used for the processing, the CPU, or the physical

01:31:57.789 --> 01:32:01.449
infrastructure of that. The products that they

01:32:01.449 --> 01:32:03.090
were putting out would give me direct access

01:32:03.090 --> 01:32:04.829
to the information that's being passed on those

01:32:04.829 --> 01:32:08.729
terminals. So you're getting system -level, root

01:32:08.729 --> 01:32:11.850
-level access through machinery, through communication

01:32:11.850 --> 01:32:14.789
devices, and through things like routers where

01:32:14.789 --> 01:32:16.390
you can know everything you want to know about

01:32:16.390 --> 01:32:20.149
your enemy. Wow. And so as far as today's technology,

01:32:20.430 --> 01:32:23.579
I see you use an Android phone. Like, is there

01:32:23.579 --> 01:32:27.159
a phone that is more secure or a platform that

01:32:27.159 --> 01:32:31.779
is more secure? It all depends. Like, I always

01:32:31.779 --> 01:32:34.079
take this from Thomas Sowell. There are no answers.

01:32:34.140 --> 01:32:36.920
There are only tradeoffs. So there's like the

01:32:36.920 --> 01:32:38.399
way to answer that question would be is like,

01:32:38.439 --> 01:32:40.739
who are you? What are you trying to do with your

01:32:40.739 --> 01:32:42.739
life? What are you talking about on your phone?

01:32:42.800 --> 01:32:44.859
What are you doing on your phone? You know, most

01:32:44.859 --> 01:32:46.800
of these phones, if you're just an average everyday

01:32:46.800 --> 01:32:50.760
citizen who's just going about your job. You

01:32:50.760 --> 01:32:52.460
know, the phones today are pretty secure, especially

01:32:52.460 --> 01:32:55.460
versus a few years ago. If you're a reporter,

01:32:55.840 --> 01:32:59.180
now the nexus is do you trust the government

01:32:59.180 --> 01:33:01.899
and do you trust Apple? If you trust the government,

01:33:02.020 --> 01:33:03.880
you trust Apple, then Apple is probably your

01:33:03.880 --> 01:33:07.100
best bet for using, you know, there's lockdown

01:33:07.100 --> 01:33:10.479
mode on an Apple phone. They used to call it

01:33:10.479 --> 01:33:11.760
back in the day, I think it was called reporter

01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:15.079
mode, but there was ways to encrypt the devices

01:33:15.079 --> 01:33:18.460
and to encrypt the chatter and the tunnel coming

01:33:18.460 --> 01:33:21.420
out of the phone, the RF coming out of the phone.

01:33:22.319 --> 01:33:25.140
What is lockdown mode? I don't know if that's

01:33:25.140 --> 01:33:26.720
exactly what it was called or not because I've

01:33:26.720 --> 01:33:29.079
never really used Apple just for my own personal

01:33:29.079 --> 01:33:31.560
reasons. What personal reasons? I don't trust

01:33:31.560 --> 01:33:36.439
Apple. How so? They are more interested in monetizing

01:33:36.439 --> 01:33:38.800
people's data than they are providing them capability.

01:33:39.659 --> 01:33:41.579
So every time you take a photo, every time you

01:33:41.579 --> 01:33:43.640
upload a document, every time you talk to it,

01:33:43.680 --> 01:33:46.439
every time it asks you about your, you know,

01:33:46.520 --> 01:33:49.689
you'll get these questions where it says. If

01:33:49.689 --> 01:33:52.109
your password's lost, you can back up your password

01:33:52.109 --> 01:33:54.310
in these ways. Tell us where you were born. Tell

01:33:54.310 --> 01:33:56.590
us your mom's maiden name. Tell us your mom's

01:33:56.590 --> 01:33:58.409
this, your mom's that. Lockdown mode is an extreme

01:33:58.409 --> 01:34:00.409
optional protection. It can only be used if you

01:34:00.409 --> 01:34:02.210
believe you may be personally targeted by a highly

01:34:02.210 --> 01:34:04.789
sophisticated cyber attack. Most people are never

01:34:04.789 --> 01:34:06.729
targeted by attacks of this nature. When iPhone

01:34:06.729 --> 01:34:08.710
is in lockdown mode, it will not function as

01:34:08.710 --> 01:34:11.189
it typically does. Apps, websites, and features

01:34:11.189 --> 01:34:13.649
will be strictly limited for security, and some

01:34:13.649 --> 01:34:16.170
experiences will be completely unavailable. Yeah,

01:34:16.189 --> 01:34:18.670
so when I was advising guys back in the day,

01:34:18.829 --> 01:34:21.350
on going out and doing a high -risk source meet.

01:34:21.710 --> 01:34:24.729
So they're going to go meet a spy for another

01:34:24.729 --> 01:34:27.170
country, and you're a military guy, and you're

01:34:27.170 --> 01:34:28.829
debriefing someone or doing something. I always

01:34:28.829 --> 01:34:31.050
tell them to use lockdown mode. I knew that it

01:34:31.050 --> 01:34:32.670
did those things. I didn't know if that was the

01:34:32.670 --> 01:34:34.050
term or if I had thought that up. So can you

01:34:34.050 --> 01:34:36.949
still send iMessages? You can still text and

01:34:36.949 --> 01:34:39.350
call. Text and call, that's it. Yeah, but there's

01:34:39.350 --> 01:34:41.609
other things that you can't do. Well, like Meta

01:34:41.609 --> 01:34:44.310
just recently announced they're no longer encrypting

01:34:44.310 --> 01:34:47.369
your DMs. Why would they do that? Well, they

01:34:47.369 --> 01:34:50.069
said that... It's for protection or whatever

01:34:50.069 --> 01:34:52.029
to make sure that people aren't doing bad things.

01:34:52.270 --> 01:34:56.390
I don't know. See what their explanation was.

01:34:57.149 --> 01:35:04.449
I'm sorry. Meta recently announced that they're

01:35:04.449 --> 01:35:08.449
no longer encrypting your DMs on Instagram. And

01:35:08.449 --> 01:35:10.890
a lot of people are up in arms and they're stopping

01:35:10.890 --> 01:35:14.430
using any DMs on Instagram and any of that stuff.

01:35:15.180 --> 01:35:18.000
And the idea is that other people can read your

01:35:18.000 --> 01:35:20.479
stuff now. Now, whether it's Meta can read your

01:35:20.479 --> 01:35:23.779
stuff or who. That's what I mean. I said, why

01:35:23.779 --> 01:35:25.199
don't you trust Apple? It's the same reason I

01:35:25.199 --> 01:35:27.359
don't trust Meta. They're not interested. The

01:35:27.359 --> 01:35:29.479
dangers behind Meta killing end -to -end encryption

01:35:29.479 --> 01:35:32.420
for Instagram DMs. Meta blamed users for not

01:35:32.420 --> 01:35:34.380
opting into the privacy -protecting feature.

01:35:34.640 --> 01:35:36.539
Experts fear the move could be the first major

01:35:36.539 --> 01:35:39.340
domino to fall for end -to -end encryption tech

01:35:39.340 --> 01:35:42.399
worldwide. That's a horrible narrative. Yeah,

01:35:42.539 --> 01:35:49.460
it seems. So, oh, you've read your last free

01:35:49.460 --> 01:35:51.979
article. Oh, my God. Give me money, motherfucker.

01:35:52.500 --> 01:35:55.460
But what Apple and Meta want to do is like they're

01:35:55.460 --> 01:35:57.119
trying to build these new neural networks. They're

01:35:57.119 --> 01:36:00.680
trying to, you know, humans and we can get into

01:36:00.680 --> 01:36:02.720
this too later if you want. Humans are the only

01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:05.699
thing, in my opinion, and I'm happy to have you

01:36:05.699 --> 01:36:07.340
disagree with me and I love to have this conversation.

01:36:07.739 --> 01:36:09.680
In my opinion, we're the only ones that are.

01:36:10.580 --> 01:36:14.060
After May 8, 2026, announced plans to discontinue

01:36:14.060 --> 01:36:15.920
support for end -to -end encryption for chats

01:36:15.920 --> 01:36:17.920
on Instagram. If you have chats that are impacted

01:36:17.920 --> 01:36:19.659
by this change, you will see instructions on

01:36:19.659 --> 01:36:22.220
how you can download any media or messages you

01:36:22.220 --> 01:36:24.579
may want to keep. Social media giants said in

01:36:24.579 --> 01:36:26.939
a help document, if you're on an older version

01:36:26.939 --> 01:36:28.880
of Instagram, you may also need to update the

01:36:28.880 --> 01:36:30.840
app before you can download your affected chats.

01:36:31.789 --> 01:36:33.710
When reach for comment, this is what Meta had

01:36:33.710 --> 01:36:35.869
to say, very few people are opting for end -to

01:36:35.869 --> 01:36:37.810
-end encrypted messages and DMs, so we're removing

01:36:37.810 --> 01:36:40.029
this option from Instagram in the coming months.

01:36:40.430 --> 01:36:42.350
Anyone who wants to keep messaging with end -to

01:36:42.350 --> 01:36:44.630
-end encryption can easily do that on WhatsApp.

01:36:44.810 --> 01:36:47.010
But WhatsApp is a little squirrely, right? WhatsApp,

01:36:47.050 --> 01:36:49.649
yeah. I mean, they're all squirrely, and that's

01:36:49.649 --> 01:36:52.409
the problem. And so you asked me why I don't

01:36:52.409 --> 01:36:56.210
trust them. It's because they want to use – so

01:36:56.210 --> 01:36:58.949
humans, in my opinion, and some animals, are

01:36:58.949 --> 01:37:02.899
the only things – that have the ability to project

01:37:02.899 --> 01:37:05.779
consciousness. And projecting consciousness is

01:37:05.779 --> 01:37:07.600
how you train a neural network. And it's how

01:37:07.600 --> 01:37:10.279
you train all these large networks. A lot of

01:37:10.279 --> 01:37:11.920
my time also in the military is spent in art.

01:37:12.020 --> 01:37:14.340
I was doing artificial intelligence in 2012,

01:37:14.819 --> 01:37:17.300
2011. Before it was even a catch term, we were

01:37:17.300 --> 01:37:19.659
using artificial intelligence to map dynamic

01:37:19.659 --> 01:37:21.699
networks and to do other things, more pragmatic

01:37:21.699 --> 01:37:24.060
uses of it than how it's being used today with

01:37:24.060 --> 01:37:25.920
large language models or convolutional neural

01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:29.319
networks. But they need consciousness to train

01:37:29.319 --> 01:37:32.140
their models. So when Google offers you meta

01:37:32.140 --> 01:37:35.000
or Instagram or whoever else offers you photo

01:37:35.000 --> 01:37:37.079
storage, it's because they want your face to

01:37:37.079 --> 01:37:39.319
train neural networks. If they're going to pay

01:37:39.319 --> 01:37:41.359
for the compute, if they're going to pay for

01:37:41.359 --> 01:37:44.520
the storage for these things, they're doing it

01:37:44.520 --> 01:37:46.840
because they're going to use the data. If you're

01:37:46.840 --> 01:37:49.359
getting a free app, in essence, any free app,

01:37:49.520 --> 01:37:51.680
if the product's free, then you're the product.

01:37:52.119 --> 01:37:54.359
So when Google is allowing you to use a Google

01:37:54.359 --> 01:37:56.760
Drive and get a gig of storage, they're going

01:37:56.760 --> 01:37:58.899
to use those photos to train neural networks

01:37:58.899 --> 01:38:00.939
to do better facial recognition. What if you're

01:38:00.939 --> 01:38:03.420
paying for Google Drive? I don't know about their

01:38:03.420 --> 01:38:05.560
terms of service now. That is one of the best

01:38:05.560 --> 01:38:07.699
things that I use with large language models

01:38:07.699 --> 01:38:11.680
is any product I download, I have the neural

01:38:11.680 --> 01:38:14.180
network examine the terms of service. And then

01:38:14.180 --> 01:38:16.960
you can pretty much understand. Here's my focus.

01:38:17.300 --> 01:38:19.779
Here's the 40 -page terms of services document.

01:38:19.800 --> 01:38:22.140
When you click that link that you got, what are

01:38:22.140 --> 01:38:24.000
they able to do with my data? So that's how I

01:38:24.000 --> 01:38:25.460
sign up for apps. And that's one of the great

01:38:25.460 --> 01:38:27.539
uses of a large language model, in my opinion,

01:38:27.659 --> 01:38:30.220
is to quickly understand how these things are

01:38:30.220 --> 01:38:32.500
being used. And that's why I say with Apple,

01:38:32.619 --> 01:38:34.380
with Meta, with all of these large information,

01:38:34.800 --> 01:38:37.079
you are more the product than the products the

01:38:37.079 --> 01:38:39.300
product. And that is because they're trying to

01:38:39.300 --> 01:38:42.820
build the most powerful, capable. artificial

01:38:42.820 --> 01:38:44.899
intelligences, which I think is a misnomer. And

01:38:44.899 --> 01:38:46.600
again, we can get into it later, but they're

01:38:46.600 --> 01:38:48.699
trying to build these hyper -competent artificial

01:38:48.699 --> 01:38:51.960
intelligences. And you need two things for that,

01:38:52.039 --> 01:38:54.340
really, is training data and you need compute.

01:38:54.939 --> 01:38:56.539
And that's why you start seeing them coming out

01:38:56.539 --> 01:38:58.560
with like Meta's building its own nuclear engineering

01:38:58.560 --> 01:39:00.800
facility or something, nuclear facility or something

01:39:00.800 --> 01:39:03.479
like that. And they need more, they need more

01:39:03.479 --> 01:39:05.960
training data. So if I want to build a, you know,

01:39:05.979 --> 01:39:08.800
a replica of Joe Rogan that I can make hyper

01:39:08.800 --> 01:39:11.899
realistic AI videos for, I need every picture

01:39:11.899 --> 01:39:14.460
of your face from every angle. I need every wince,

01:39:14.479 --> 01:39:16.920
every squint, everything you've ever done so

01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:20.180
I can. Introduce more training data to better

01:39:20.180 --> 01:39:22.239
train that neural network in order to generate

01:39:22.239 --> 01:39:25.619
more hyper -realistic versions of yourself. And

01:39:25.619 --> 01:39:27.720
so when a company is offering you something for

01:39:27.720 --> 01:39:30.380
free, and it's fine. Like if people are fine

01:39:30.380 --> 01:39:32.979
with that idea. then by all means, download all

01:39:32.979 --> 01:39:35.640
the free apps that you want. But if you're downloading

01:39:35.640 --> 01:39:37.439
a free app, it's because you are the product.

01:39:37.579 --> 01:39:39.220
They either want to see how you type. They want

01:39:39.220 --> 01:39:41.739
to see what you're saying. They want to see how

01:39:41.739 --> 01:39:43.539
you're thinking about things. They want to understand

01:39:43.539 --> 01:39:45.180
your political biases. They want to look at your

01:39:45.180 --> 01:39:47.460
photos. And this isn't because they're a deep

01:39:47.460 --> 01:39:49.960
-seated nation -state actor. They can become

01:39:49.960 --> 01:39:51.979
that. But it's because they're trying to build

01:39:51.979 --> 01:39:54.859
the best products because the big money is in

01:39:54.859 --> 01:39:57.710
AI. That's where the biggest money is. So anytime

01:39:57.710 --> 01:39:59.569
you're doing any of these things, it's just been

01:39:59.569 --> 01:40:01.449
obvious to me from the on, not from the onset,

01:40:01.569 --> 01:40:04.909
but pretty close to the onset that. Yeah, this

01:40:04.909 --> 01:40:07.010
is a good example, right? Pokemon Go players

01:40:07.010 --> 01:40:10.390
built a 30 billion photo map. That's how training

01:40:10.390 --> 01:40:16.069
robots deliver your pizza. There you go. So they

01:40:16.069 --> 01:40:18.710
view – and they can say they don't. And maybe

01:40:18.710 --> 01:40:21.210
if someone from there catches this podcast, which

01:40:21.210 --> 01:40:23.369
they well could, they might put out a statement

01:40:23.369 --> 01:40:25.170
saying that's not what they're doing. But I'm

01:40:25.170 --> 01:40:27.770
telling you as a person who has done media forensics,

01:40:27.789 --> 01:40:30.670
who has done computer network operations, and

01:40:30.670 --> 01:40:32.670
who has trained artificial intelligence models,

01:40:32.850 --> 01:40:37.010
that is precisely what they are doing. And what

01:40:37.010 --> 01:40:39.630
is the difference between using Apple and using

01:40:39.630 --> 01:40:42.239
– Android. Well, Android will do the same things

01:40:42.239 --> 01:40:44.199
and Google will do the same things. It's just

01:40:44.199 --> 01:40:46.819
that I can root my phone or I can install a custom

01:40:46.819 --> 01:40:49.079
operating system like Graphene or something like

01:40:49.079 --> 01:40:53.020
that, which I'm not doing right now. I had to

01:40:53.020 --> 01:40:55.600
make a sacrifice when I started my company, Spartan

01:40:55.600 --> 01:40:58.439
Forge. And the sacrifice was I had to be the

01:40:58.439 --> 01:41:01.340
face of this product. And so I never had a social

01:41:01.340 --> 01:41:04.300
media until I started the company. And I didn't

01:41:04.300 --> 01:41:05.979
upload things to the cloud until I started this

01:41:05.979 --> 01:41:08.779
company. And it became just like I have to sell

01:41:08.779 --> 01:41:11.689
a product. I have to, you know, and I'm actually

01:41:11.689 --> 01:41:13.729
selling a product, not people's data or people's

01:41:13.729 --> 01:41:15.909
photos. I have to sell this product. I have to

01:41:15.909 --> 01:41:18.649
let people, people often don't know who is the

01:41:18.649 --> 01:41:20.710
company or who is the organizing principle and

01:41:20.710 --> 01:41:23.430
what do they care about in the company. And I

01:41:23.430 --> 01:41:25.949
just made that trade and said. I'm going to have

01:41:25.949 --> 01:41:28.029
to become a public person and start putting things

01:41:28.029 --> 01:41:31.229
out there. And so, you know, I started a company.

01:41:31.310 --> 01:41:32.949
We started our first Instagram and I started

01:41:32.949 --> 01:41:35.989
my my marketing team started my first Instagram.

01:41:36.550 --> 01:41:39.090
And I had to start uploading things and talking

01:41:39.090 --> 01:41:42.260
about how I felt about things because. I wanted

01:41:42.260 --> 01:41:44.600
people to know that this company was not going

01:41:44.600 --> 01:41:46.260
to be like the other companies that are out there.

01:41:46.300 --> 01:41:48.039
We don't sell their data. We don't sell emails.

01:41:48.220 --> 01:41:50.420
I can make a half million dollars off my email

01:41:50.420 --> 01:41:52.420
list tomorrow. And I've been offered that money.

01:41:52.520 --> 01:41:54.119
You know, we've got millions of emails from people

01:41:54.119 --> 01:41:56.140
who have signed up for our apps. Other companies

01:41:56.140 --> 01:41:59.899
who are starting companies, they want to go out

01:41:59.899 --> 01:42:01.600
and reach marketing people. So if you're starting

01:42:01.600 --> 01:42:04.159
another hunting app, maybe for cameras or for

01:42:04.159 --> 01:42:07.260
a call or a tricky call or an out call or something,

01:42:07.380 --> 01:42:11.430
and you... found Spartan Forge and you said,

01:42:11.470 --> 01:42:14.390
man, think about 2 million emails. I could pay

01:42:14.390 --> 01:42:16.050
them a half million dollars for that $2 million

01:42:16.050 --> 01:42:18.970
and start some top of line marketing, top of

01:42:18.970 --> 01:42:21.899
funnel marketing. and go blast them. So they'd

01:42:21.899 --> 01:42:23.680
pay me a lot of money for those emails. I will

01:42:23.680 --> 01:42:26.100
never do that. I'll never sell my company's emails,

01:42:26.319 --> 01:42:28.539
the people's emails. I'll never do any of those

01:42:28.539 --> 01:42:31.020
things because the product is the product for

01:42:31.020 --> 01:42:34.420
my company. It's not the people. So the reason

01:42:34.420 --> 01:42:37.800
why you use Android over Apple is the ability

01:42:37.800 --> 01:42:40.279
to root it and install things like Graphene?

01:42:40.460 --> 01:42:43.979
Yeah, custom OSs. But yet you don't use it. Not

01:42:43.979 --> 01:42:45.880
now, but what I still can use and what I still

01:42:45.880 --> 01:42:49.640
do use is Android also publishes their framework

01:42:49.640 --> 01:42:52.479
in an open source fashion where you can look

01:42:52.479 --> 01:42:56.199
at the – it's called AOSP, Android Open Source

01:42:56.199 --> 01:43:00.079
Project. So the basis of Android, the nuts –

01:43:00.079 --> 01:43:01.699
think of it as the nuts and bolts. I'll try not

01:43:01.699 --> 01:43:04.840
to talk. Two technical terms here. But the basic

01:43:04.840 --> 01:43:07.479
framework, think about it like a car. The frame

01:43:07.479 --> 01:43:10.220
and the engine makeup is published so you can

01:43:10.220 --> 01:43:13.140
look at how things work on the inside. Apple

01:43:13.140 --> 01:43:14.680
goes the opposite way and they don't publish

01:43:14.680 --> 01:43:16.399
any of that. You can't see any of that stuff.

01:43:16.619 --> 01:43:19.920
I'm for the free and open version because at

01:43:19.920 --> 01:43:23.319
least if I'm worried about my phone having a

01:43:23.319 --> 01:43:25.760
problem, I can actually dump binary or I can

01:43:25.760 --> 01:43:28.279
create an EO1 file and exhume. I can look at

01:43:28.279 --> 01:43:30.380
the binary and say, is my phone acting like it

01:43:30.380 --> 01:43:32.279
should or doing what it should? Or is there some

01:43:32.279 --> 01:43:33.880
kind of persistent implant? I wouldn't be able

01:43:33.880 --> 01:43:36.779
to do that. I would have to trust Apple and Apple's

01:43:36.779 --> 01:43:40.180
ecosystem and whoever they're McAfee or whatever

01:43:40.180 --> 01:43:42.020
they're using. I would have to trust them, which

01:43:42.020 --> 01:43:46.859
I don't. So I like the Android. Is that option

01:43:46.859 --> 01:43:49.699
available for the average consumer that's not

01:43:49.699 --> 01:43:52.340
that learned in computers? Well, the great part

01:43:52.340 --> 01:43:54.680
about large language models now is if you wanted

01:43:54.680 --> 01:43:57.159
to dump your own phone. Today, you could follow

01:43:57.159 --> 01:43:58.979
along with a large language model and do it,

01:43:59.000 --> 01:44:01.420
your own Android. And how would you do that?

01:44:02.159 --> 01:44:05.340
Well, you would have to buy some expensive –

01:44:05.340 --> 01:44:07.500
there is something – you'd either have to pay

01:44:07.500 --> 01:44:10.119
a firm to do it or you could download things

01:44:10.119 --> 01:44:14.319
like Celebrite. You could get a Celebrite. or

01:44:14.319 --> 01:44:16.220
there's other things called forensic toolkit,

01:44:16.520 --> 01:44:19.260
other things like that that allow you to examine

01:44:19.260 --> 01:44:21.760
your phone at a deeper level. And is this an

01:44:21.760 --> 01:44:24.800
app, forensic? They're products. Products. They're

01:44:24.800 --> 01:44:26.479
products. So it's a physical product that you

01:44:26.479 --> 01:44:28.460
dump your phone into? Yeah, and there's software.

01:44:29.079 --> 01:44:31.479
And there's connecting and all that type of stuff.

01:44:31.600 --> 01:44:35.260
Tools I used throughout my military career, Celebrite

01:44:35.260 --> 01:44:37.039
was one of them, but they're Israeli -owned.

01:44:37.579 --> 01:44:39.500
I've got nothing against Israel. I've just got

01:44:39.500 --> 01:44:42.140
everything against foreign actors. Just if they're

01:44:42.140 --> 01:44:44.560
not an American company, that automatically kicks

01:44:44.560 --> 01:44:48.319
them down a level for me. So anyway, there's

01:44:48.319 --> 01:44:51.199
all kinds of, Android just makes it much easier

01:44:51.199 --> 01:44:54.539
to examine your phone or to understand if you've

01:44:54.539 --> 01:44:57.720
got something going on that's funky than it is

01:44:57.720 --> 01:44:59.699
on Apple. So for the average person, like for

01:44:59.699 --> 01:45:02.350
me. You're not the average person. Well, let's

01:45:02.350 --> 01:45:05.210
pretend I am. If I got an Android phone and I

01:45:05.210 --> 01:45:08.369
wanted to examine my phone, what would be the

01:45:08.369 --> 01:45:10.750
process? You would download some of the software

01:45:10.750 --> 01:45:12.329
that I talked about. You would jack your phone

01:45:12.329 --> 01:45:15.010
into it. You would open your phone, and then

01:45:15.010 --> 01:45:17.909
it would start carving the binary of everything

01:45:17.909 --> 01:45:22.289
in your phone. You could create a one -to -one

01:45:22.289 --> 01:45:24.670
emulation of your phone if you wanted to, and

01:45:24.670 --> 01:45:26.250
then you would be able to get under the hood

01:45:26.250 --> 01:45:28.489
and examine the apps. You would be able to examine

01:45:28.489 --> 01:45:30.989
the binary. What's the executable code? You'd

01:45:30.989 --> 01:45:33.069
be able to look at all of those things and then

01:45:33.069 --> 01:45:36.029
determine, because Android open source project

01:45:36.029 --> 01:45:38.170
is published, you could do a one -for -one and

01:45:38.170 --> 01:45:41.250
say, well, at the kernel level, there's this

01:45:41.250 --> 01:45:45.409
weird code that's not in the Android build. So

01:45:45.409 --> 01:45:48.890
what is this code? And then with a neural network,

01:45:49.069 --> 01:45:51.090
you could probably – I've never done it, but

01:45:51.090 --> 01:45:52.949
I'm sure you could figure out what the intent

01:45:52.949 --> 01:45:55.430
is of that code even for a layperson. So I could

01:45:55.430 --> 01:45:57.590
take that information and I could put it into

01:45:57.590 --> 01:46:00.569
Perplexity and Perplexity would lay out what's

01:46:00.569 --> 01:46:02.430
going on with it? Ostensibly, it would be able

01:46:02.430 --> 01:46:04.369
to, yes, unless it was some type of weird code.

01:46:04.670 --> 01:46:06.789
I don't know if – I haven't used Perplexity,

01:46:06.829 --> 01:46:08.970
so I don't know if they have something like ChatGPT's

01:46:08.970 --> 01:46:12.380
Codex. I sort of just tried just to be like,

01:46:12.399 --> 01:46:13.899
can you help me examine what my Android phone

01:46:13.899 --> 01:46:16.140
is doing, looking for any malicious actors? Yes,

01:46:16.140 --> 01:46:17.779
I can walk you through structured non -destructive

01:46:17.779 --> 01:46:19.960
check for malware or other shady activity on

01:46:19.960 --> 01:46:22.710
your Android phone. A first, what are you noticing?

01:46:22.949 --> 01:46:25.409
Before tools, commands, quickly check for common

01:46:25.409 --> 01:46:27.989
warning signs. Sudden big battery drain, you're

01:46:27.989 --> 01:46:30.649
not using the phone. Unusual data usage, particularly

01:46:30.649 --> 01:46:33.270
in the background. Apps you don't remember installing

01:46:33.270 --> 01:46:35.510
or icons briefly appearing and then disappearing.

01:46:35.829 --> 01:46:39.689
Lots of pop -ups, redirects in browser or new

01:46:39.689 --> 01:46:43.210
default search launcher. Strange calls, SMS messages

01:46:43.210 --> 01:46:45.550
you didn't send yourself. If any of those ring

01:46:45.550 --> 01:46:48.090
a bell, we'll focus on them in later steps. So

01:46:48.090 --> 01:46:51.069
this is just something that you could do with

01:46:51.069 --> 01:46:52.729
an Android phone that you just can't do with

01:46:52.729 --> 01:46:54.609
Apple. Yeah, Apple's not open. What are the reasons

01:46:54.609 --> 01:46:56.810
you don't trust Apple? Well, could I ask, can

01:46:56.810 --> 01:46:58.590
I do one thing before we, remember that question

01:46:58.590 --> 01:47:00.189
because I don't want to forget it. Could I give

01:47:00.189 --> 01:47:02.689
you a prompt? Sure. Because I want to answer

01:47:02.689 --> 01:47:04.149
your first question that we've already gone past.

01:47:04.949 --> 01:47:07.210
Can you bring perplexity back up, please? Do

01:47:07.210 --> 01:47:08.310
you want to go in addition to that or start a

01:47:08.310 --> 01:47:11.390
new one? No, this is fine. Just say, my friend

01:47:11.390 --> 01:47:18.760
helped me carve. An EO1 file. Echo Oscar EO1

01:47:18.760 --> 01:47:27.460
file. And he says that there is code in there

01:47:27.460 --> 01:47:31.840
that doesn't comport with the rest of the Android

01:47:31.840 --> 01:47:36.760
system. Yeah, P -O -R -T. The rest of the system.

01:47:38.779 --> 01:47:41.880
Could I dump that code here and could you tell

01:47:41.880 --> 01:47:44.539
me what it means? I'm sure the answer is yes,

01:47:44.579 --> 01:47:46.079
but I just didn't want to answer it because I've

01:47:46.079 --> 01:47:51.039
never done it. Could you tell me? Could you tell

01:47:51.039 --> 01:47:53.600
me, Jeremy? Could you tell me what it means here?

01:47:57.199 --> 01:48:01.800
Get the you out. Get the you. Tell me you. Could

01:48:01.800 --> 01:48:03.300
I have some of your coffee, please? Yeah, absolutely.

01:48:03.520 --> 01:48:09.560
It's for you. Okay, let's see what it says. Yes,

01:48:09.779 --> 01:48:12.180
you can pay suspicious code here and I can help

01:48:12.180 --> 01:48:14.619
explain what it means what it appears to do Line

01:48:14.619 --> 01:48:16.859
by line and whether anything looks malicious

01:48:16.859 --> 01:48:19.720
before you paste a few important notes Remove

01:48:19.720 --> 01:48:22.319
or redact anything that looks like private data

01:48:22.319 --> 01:48:26.100
using like that's keys Tokens IPS email addresses

01:48:26.100 --> 01:48:28.819
phone perplexity is our sponsor I love that because

01:48:28.819 --> 01:48:31.319
you'd never get that from chat GPT. You'd want

01:48:31.319 --> 01:48:35.529
all that information. He's the shit and So you're

01:48:35.529 --> 01:48:38.289
not sharing personal or case sensitive information.

01:48:38.510 --> 01:48:41.270
Wonderful perplexity. If it's very long, send

01:48:41.270 --> 01:48:46.050
in chunks. Tell me chunk 1 -3 chunk 2 -3 etc

01:48:46.050 --> 01:48:49.689
so we can help keep track I can do static analysis

01:48:49.689 --> 01:48:51.909
here read and reason about the code, but I cannot

01:48:51.909 --> 01:48:55.170
actually execute it in a sandbox, right? So this

01:48:55.170 --> 01:48:57.409
is more like a careful forensic read -through

01:48:57.409 --> 01:49:00.449
than a full dynamic malware analysis go ahead

01:49:00.449 --> 01:49:02.510
and paste the code snippet your friend flag does

01:49:02.510 --> 01:49:04.850
not fitting with the rest of the system and Tell

01:49:04.850 --> 01:49:08.680
me in a sentence or two where in the eo1 It came

01:49:08.680 --> 01:49:11.600
from, example, app folder, system partition,

01:49:11.960 --> 01:49:15.739
random file path. Yep, exactly. So, yeah, I thought

01:49:15.739 --> 01:49:17.300
that would be the answer. I've just never done

01:49:17.300 --> 01:49:19.840
it. And so you can do a forensic examination

01:49:19.840 --> 01:49:23.159
of an Apple, by the way. I'm sorry if I misspoke

01:49:23.159 --> 01:49:25.300
there. But you can't do it to the level that

01:49:25.300 --> 01:49:27.670
you can with... Because the Android open source

01:49:27.670 --> 01:49:30.390
project publishes all of the code, I can get

01:49:30.390 --> 01:49:32.310
an understanding of the very inner working. So

01:49:32.310 --> 01:49:34.189
if something's being done, for instance, at the

01:49:34.189 --> 01:49:36.609
kernel, or you could think about it as the lowest

01:49:36.609 --> 01:49:39.170
level of the phone, something that wouldn't normally

01:49:39.170 --> 01:49:43.989
get caught in a forensic examination, I wouldn't

01:49:43.989 --> 01:49:46.250
be able to do that with Apple. And the nation

01:49:46.250 --> 01:49:49.569
state actors are doing things at very low levels

01:49:49.569 --> 01:49:53.170
in the code framework. For that exact reason,

01:49:53.250 --> 01:49:55.810
because most people who aren't very deep into

01:49:55.810 --> 01:49:58.590
forensics would miss that. It would be like the

01:49:58.590 --> 01:50:00.329
fingerprint under the couch cushion or something

01:50:00.329 --> 01:50:02.149
like that. And what is the difference between

01:50:02.149 --> 01:50:07.130
what someone can do with an Android phone with

01:50:07.130 --> 01:50:09.550
the standard Android operating system versus

01:50:09.550 --> 01:50:13.850
graphene? So that gets into, you know, if you

01:50:13.850 --> 01:50:17.250
wanted to war drive or sample Wi -Fi networks

01:50:17.250 --> 01:50:20.729
in an area or if you wanted to run a barrage.

01:50:21.180 --> 01:50:24.920
attack on a Wi -Fi endpoint, you could work that

01:50:24.920 --> 01:50:26.800
in there to do things with the phone that you

01:50:26.800 --> 01:50:28.359
couldn't otherwise do with a standard Android

01:50:28.359 --> 01:50:33.220
operating kit. But as far as on a consumer level,

01:50:33.479 --> 01:50:36.039
what protections do you have by running Graphene

01:50:36.039 --> 01:50:40.479
that you don't have by running Android? You're

01:50:40.479 --> 01:50:44.119
much more in control of the ecosystem. You have

01:50:44.119 --> 01:50:46.199
a firmer understanding. And again, you could

01:50:46.199 --> 01:50:48.300
use a large language model to do this to understand

01:50:48.300 --> 01:50:50.739
exactly what's being run on the phone. You control

01:50:50.739 --> 01:50:52.640
the background services that can be run on the

01:50:52.640 --> 01:50:54.840
phone. So if you're getting hot mic'd or if your

01:50:54.840 --> 01:50:56.359
camera's taking pictures of you and you're not

01:50:56.359 --> 01:50:58.119
looking or it's listening to you for advertising

01:50:58.119 --> 01:51:00.939
content, stuff like that, you would be in control

01:51:00.939 --> 01:51:02.439
of all of that in a way that you're not in control

01:51:02.439 --> 01:51:05.060
of on a native Android app. In control of how

01:51:05.060 --> 01:51:07.140
so? Would it alert you that this is happening?

01:51:07.340 --> 01:51:09.340
Or just the functionality wouldn't be there for

01:51:09.340 --> 01:51:11.520
it to take place. Right, because the functionality

01:51:11.520 --> 01:51:14.760
is only designed for the standard Android operating

01:51:14.760 --> 01:51:17.840
system. And I haven't installed Graphene in a

01:51:17.840 --> 01:51:20.699
while, so all of this updates, and I could be

01:51:20.699 --> 01:51:22.859
saying things that are incorrect. I stopped doing

01:51:22.859 --> 01:51:24.979
this about three years ago. I know that there

01:51:24.979 --> 01:51:27.439
was, I forget what country it was, but they were

01:51:27.439 --> 01:51:30.640
focusing on people who use Google Pixel phones,

01:51:30.859 --> 01:51:33.319
for example, because that's one of the phones

01:51:33.319 --> 01:51:35.760
that are more commonly rooted. Yeah, it's easy

01:51:35.760 --> 01:51:38.119
to do. And you could do it with a large language

01:51:38.119 --> 01:51:39.579
model. You could sit there and be walked through

01:51:39.579 --> 01:51:42.239
on how to do it, which is a great part of that.

01:51:42.640 --> 01:51:44.939
Is it complicated for a person like me that's

01:51:44.939 --> 01:51:47.600
not that astute? No, it's not something I would

01:51:47.600 --> 01:51:49.180
do with a phone that you care about the first

01:51:49.180 --> 01:51:51.180
few times because you're going to jack things

01:51:51.180 --> 01:51:54.640
up. You have to get the bootloader and essentially

01:51:54.640 --> 01:51:58.140
the starting mechanisms of the phone that launches

01:51:58.140 --> 01:51:59.659
all of the other things, you have to get down

01:51:59.659 --> 01:52:02.380
to a level and unlock that so that you can...

01:52:02.380 --> 01:52:04.760
Is that available for all Android phones? No,

01:52:04.779 --> 01:52:07.079
not all Android phones. Lots of them lock it

01:52:07.079 --> 01:52:08.670
down, so you can't do that. Is that available

01:52:08.670 --> 01:52:12.010
for Samsung phones? No, not this one. So the

01:52:12.010 --> 01:52:14.949
question has to become, can you unlock the bootloader?

01:52:15.229 --> 01:52:17.229
And that is the starting, think of it as the

01:52:17.229 --> 01:52:18.670
starting engine of the rest of the phones. Why

01:52:18.670 --> 01:52:20.449
is that only available on Google Pixel phones?

01:52:20.850 --> 01:52:22.670
I'm not sure why they do it that way. I haven't

01:52:22.670 --> 01:52:24.890
looked into that. It's just Pixels and the older

01:52:24.890 --> 01:52:30.310
Samsung's made it available. Older Galaxy S7s,

01:52:30.310 --> 01:52:33.529
S10s, you could do more. than you can with like,

01:52:33.590 --> 01:52:36.109
and I've got the Galaxy Fold here, and you can

01:52:36.109 --> 01:52:38.270
do almost none of that on here. That is fucking

01:52:38.270 --> 01:52:40.869
sweet, though. Yeah, I love this phone. But like

01:52:40.869 --> 01:52:42.770
I said, I went away from doing all that, A, because

01:52:42.770 --> 01:52:45.789
it was work, B, because I'm not working in national

01:52:45.789 --> 01:52:48.470
security anymore, and I'm not, you know, I haven't

01:52:48.470 --> 01:52:51.850
written an exploit in years. I don't do this

01:52:51.850 --> 01:52:54.210
type of work anymore, and I need to sell a product.

01:52:54.630 --> 01:52:56.789
And it just, you know, working with other employees,

01:52:56.850 --> 01:52:59.560
like... Would that run my Instagram or assistant

01:52:59.560 --> 01:53:01.739
going through my email and all those other types

01:53:01.739 --> 01:53:04.260
of things? It just wasn't pragmatic anymore for

01:53:04.260 --> 01:53:05.840
me to keep doing that, and I had to give up that

01:53:05.840 --> 01:53:07.159
part of myself. Does Spartan Forge, your app,

01:53:07.199 --> 01:53:10.189
run on graphene? Yeah, well, it could. Yeah,

01:53:10.229 --> 01:53:13.270
it would. You have to sideload the app. But again,

01:53:13.449 --> 01:53:15.109
a large language model could walk you through

01:53:15.109 --> 01:53:18.229
doing that. So we haven't gotten to that level

01:53:18.229 --> 01:53:19.850
of... Does it make sense here that this says

01:53:19.850 --> 01:53:22.210
it's easier because Google makes it easier? Yeah.

01:53:22.670 --> 01:53:24.810
He was just asking me why they make it easier.

01:53:24.930 --> 01:53:28.149
I don't know that answer. So the process is officially

01:53:28.149 --> 01:53:30.590
supported in the Android settings under developer

01:53:30.590 --> 01:53:33.289
options, allowing users to toggle OEM locking.

01:53:33.979 --> 01:53:36.800
Simple fastboot method. Pixels use standard fastboot

01:53:36.800 --> 01:53:40.779
commands that work consistently across all models

01:53:40.779 --> 01:53:44.470
to unlock the bootloader accessibility. That's

01:53:44.470 --> 01:53:47.210
what I was talking about. So, yeah, I don't know

01:53:47.210 --> 01:53:48.989
why they do it. It might be people can – well,

01:53:49.029 --> 01:53:52.729
the Android open source project exists. So it

01:53:52.729 --> 01:53:54.130
would stand to reason that you would want a way

01:53:54.130 --> 01:53:56.189
for someone – because what you want is people

01:53:56.189 --> 01:53:58.689
interacting with that code and red teaming it

01:53:58.689 --> 01:54:01.109
and making the code better and then offering

01:54:01.109 --> 01:54:04.810
bug bounties so that you can tell Android, like,

01:54:04.850 --> 01:54:06.409
hey, you've got a critical flaw in your system

01:54:06.409 --> 01:54:08.489
architecture here. And then they'll pay you $20

01:54:08.489 --> 01:54:10.630
,000 for that. I've got friends who do that.

01:54:11.170 --> 01:54:15.579
You and I talked about – Prince's phone yes that

01:54:15.579 --> 01:54:21.199
which is so the the narrative is that that is

01:54:21.199 --> 01:54:24.199
an unhackable phone yeah it's just by virtue

01:54:24.199 --> 01:54:28.899
and look Eric's a wonderful guy and he's the

01:54:28.899 --> 01:54:33.079
principles that he used for the first instantiation

01:54:33.079 --> 01:54:35.399
of that phone are the correct principles, which

01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:37.420
is we need to get, if you want, if you're security

01:54:37.420 --> 01:54:39.720
focused at all, you should get away from these

01:54:39.720 --> 01:54:42.399
big, large conglomerates because none of your

01:54:42.399 --> 01:54:44.520
data is private. That's a correct principle.

01:54:44.899 --> 01:54:47.060
An incorrect principle, and I'm going to get

01:54:47.060 --> 01:54:49.720
shit about this, but I told you in the beginning,

01:54:49.760 --> 01:54:51.579
I care about the truth and I do care about the

01:54:51.579 --> 01:54:55.930
truth, is that when you're using a PKI. subsystem

01:54:55.930 --> 01:54:58.649
that relies on Microsoft, then you're not in

01:54:58.649 --> 01:55:01.890
control of the PKI certificate signing and Microsoft

01:55:01.890 --> 01:55:03.810
could cause a bunch of problems and they were

01:55:03.810 --> 01:55:07.050
using that. So the other thing being, if you're

01:55:07.050 --> 01:55:09.130
building on the Android open source project,

01:55:09.250 --> 01:55:12.289
that means the code that you're using as the

01:55:12.289 --> 01:55:14.270
engine, let's just call it that of your phone,

01:55:14.350 --> 01:55:17.250
is examinable by the public. So you're relying

01:55:17.250 --> 01:55:21.409
on Android to publish these. you know, updates

01:55:21.409 --> 01:55:23.949
to the phone and you're relying on those things

01:55:23.949 --> 01:55:25.770
to be as good as possible. Now you might harden

01:55:25.770 --> 01:55:28.270
it some more, but as long as the code is out

01:55:28.270 --> 01:55:30.289
there, it can always be mucked with. As long

01:55:30.289 --> 01:55:32.390
as people have to interact with the device and

01:55:32.390 --> 01:55:34.390
type and you have to see what you're typing,

01:55:34.550 --> 01:55:37.409
a phone's going to be, it's going to have Swiss

01:55:37.409 --> 01:55:40.750
cheese. So when people say something is unhackable,

01:55:40.810 --> 01:55:44.689
as you said, that's just not true. Yeah, it didn't

01:55:44.689 --> 01:55:47.029
make sense to me. Which is why you and I talked

01:55:47.029 --> 01:55:48.689
about it. Yeah, we talked about it quite a bit.

01:55:49.529 --> 01:55:52.569
Like I said, great guy, done lots of great things

01:55:52.569 --> 01:55:55.989
for the country. And it's just, if they had just

01:55:55.989 --> 01:55:58.489
said something along the lines of, it's hackable

01:55:58.489 --> 01:56:00.590
as any phone is hackable, because by virtue of

01:56:00.590 --> 01:56:02.350
you having to interact with it, it's hackable.

01:56:03.029 --> 01:56:06.750
It's just like, if I came up with an app that

01:56:06.750 --> 01:56:09.229
had a, you know, look at the TikTok terms of

01:56:09.229 --> 01:56:10.850
service on the first TikTok. Oh, it's bonkers.

01:56:11.529 --> 01:56:13.829
With those terms of services, I will own your

01:56:13.829 --> 01:56:15.710
phone. And I'm not saying you can install TikTok

01:56:15.710 --> 01:56:17.909
on his phone. But what I'm saying is by virtue

01:56:17.909 --> 01:56:19.989
that you have to interact with the phone and

01:56:19.989 --> 01:56:22.329
see what you're doing and type passwords and

01:56:22.329 --> 01:56:24.810
you've got those kinds of terms of service, I

01:56:24.810 --> 01:56:26.869
could easily put a key logger in that. And now

01:56:26.869 --> 01:56:28.750
I know your signal password or your signal pin

01:56:28.750 --> 01:56:32.029
or, you know, I get you, you know, you're going

01:56:32.029 --> 01:56:34.250
to China. So I stop you in secondary. And while

01:56:34.250 --> 01:56:36.409
you're in secondary, I've got a CCTV on you and

01:56:36.409 --> 01:56:38.810
you unlock your phone. Now I know how to unlock

01:56:38.810 --> 01:56:40.670
your phone. And now I'm going to lock you up.

01:56:41.720 --> 01:56:46.140
secondary at customs in China or in Canada. And

01:56:46.140 --> 01:56:48.159
I'm going to separate you from your phone and

01:56:48.159 --> 01:56:49.699
I've seen you unlock it. Well, now I'm going

01:56:49.699 --> 01:56:51.579
to get in there with NCase or I'm going to get

01:56:51.579 --> 01:56:53.220
in there with FTK or I'm going to get in there

01:56:53.220 --> 01:56:56.199
with Celebrite and I'm going to dump your phone.

01:56:56.880 --> 01:57:01.079
And just by virtue of it being built on the Android

01:57:01.079 --> 01:57:03.399
open source project, that's a great thing. It's

01:57:03.399 --> 01:57:05.880
a good thing. Just don't call it totally unhackable

01:57:05.880 --> 01:57:09.729
because a guy like me. I don't need but a week

01:57:09.729 --> 01:57:12.470
or two to tell you on this current build, like,

01:57:12.489 --> 01:57:15.090
here's the hole in this Swiss cheese. Now, is

01:57:15.090 --> 01:57:19.449
it far better than having a Google phone with

01:57:19.449 --> 01:57:21.909
standard firmware and standard OS or an Apple

01:57:21.909 --> 01:57:24.890
phone? I don't know about Apple because, again,

01:57:24.949 --> 01:57:26.409
you asked me about Apple, and I said, I don't

01:57:26.409 --> 01:57:28.189
know Apple. I don't know what's happening at

01:57:28.189 --> 01:57:30.250
the top of that company, but I know that they

01:57:30.250 --> 01:57:32.689
like to monetize people, and that's pervasive

01:57:32.689 --> 01:57:35.920
in my mind. And using data that people don't

01:57:35.920 --> 01:57:37.720
know is getting used, even though it's in a 40

01:57:37.720 --> 01:57:40.039
-page terms of services document, is pervasive.

01:57:40.300 --> 01:57:42.539
So I just don't know at that highest level of

01:57:42.539 --> 01:57:44.859
analysis. And that's why I said to answer your

01:57:44.859 --> 01:57:46.659
question about the safest phone, I would ask

01:57:46.659 --> 01:57:48.500
you what you're using it for, who you are, and

01:57:48.500 --> 01:57:51.659
what are you doing in the world is the best way

01:57:51.659 --> 01:57:54.300
to answer that question. So me, like what would

01:57:54.300 --> 01:57:57.180
you recommend I use? I mean, I wouldn't want

01:57:57.180 --> 01:58:00.000
to. I mean, OK, I'll tell you generally what

01:58:00.000 --> 01:58:02.340
I would say, because you might ask me that question

01:58:02.340 --> 01:58:04.260
one day because we go back and forth about a

01:58:04.260 --> 01:58:07.220
lot of tech. I know specifically what I would

01:58:07.220 --> 01:58:08.800
recommend for you to do. And I'd even tell you

01:58:08.800 --> 01:58:12.199
to hire someone else to do it, not me, because.

01:58:12.779 --> 01:58:15.079
That checks and balances is what I would want.

01:58:15.239 --> 01:58:18.359
But for you, I would say you should take something

01:58:18.359 --> 01:58:22.760
like a Raspberry Pi and you should run WireGuard

01:58:22.760 --> 01:58:25.020
on your phone and you should route all of your

01:58:25.020 --> 01:58:27.100
internet traffic through something like a home

01:58:27.100 --> 01:58:29.119
terminal at your house through a Raspberry Pi

01:58:29.119 --> 01:58:32.880
using something like WireGuard, which is a VPN

01:58:32.880 --> 01:58:37.739
that I use that's very good. Everything should

01:58:37.739 --> 01:58:41.039
be routed through that. And if you trust Apple,

01:58:41.220 --> 01:58:44.000
continue using Apple. If you don't trust Apple,

01:58:44.140 --> 01:58:49.640
then use Android. And you could use a pixel and

01:58:49.640 --> 01:58:51.680
do graphene and you could use signal on there

01:58:51.680 --> 01:58:52.960
and those other things. You're going to be relatively

01:58:52.960 --> 01:58:55.899
safe. But again, if I'm a nation state actor,

01:58:56.079 --> 01:58:58.340
I can create circumstances where I'm going to

01:58:58.340 --> 01:59:00.399
get access to your shit and I'm going to lock

01:59:00.399 --> 01:59:04.479
you down. And some of them are more expensive

01:59:04.479 --> 01:59:06.880
than other methods to do it, but I'm a pragmatist

01:59:06.880 --> 01:59:08.539
and you can always come up with a method to get

01:59:08.539 --> 01:59:10.180
a hold of somebody's shit. You can always create

01:59:10.180 --> 01:59:12.060
the circumstances, especially if you're a nation

01:59:12.060 --> 01:59:15.380
state actor, to get a hold of somebody's stuff.

01:59:15.600 --> 01:59:17.720
That would be the very high level of things that

01:59:17.720 --> 01:59:24.619
I would recommend to you just out the gate. Yeah,

01:59:24.680 --> 01:59:27.279
it's very concerning because it seems like these

01:59:27.279 --> 01:59:29.619
things keep getting stronger and more capable.

01:59:29.880 --> 01:59:32.939
Yes. Like the Pegasus 2 being a non -click exploit.

01:59:33.640 --> 01:59:36.079
Yes. So all they have to do essentially is just

01:59:36.079 --> 01:59:43.399
know your number. Yep. Just make yourself a difficult

01:59:43.399 --> 01:59:46.680
target would be my best recommendation. When

01:59:46.680 --> 01:59:48.300
you're going to answer questions about password

01:59:48.300 --> 01:59:50.420
reset, don't answer them honestly. Write down

01:59:50.420 --> 01:59:52.460
in a physical journal or something how you answered

01:59:52.460 --> 01:59:54.000
those questions. Don't answer them honestly.

01:59:55.319 --> 01:59:57.619
You know, all of these things we think are added

01:59:57.619 --> 01:59:59.680
for layers of protection. For instance, you used

01:59:59.680 --> 02:00:01.560
to get that pop up on your phone where it said,

02:00:01.699 --> 02:00:05.079
you know, there'd be like blocks. And it would

02:00:05.079 --> 02:00:09.460
say, click all of the pictures with a traffic

02:00:09.460 --> 02:00:10.920
light in it. I was just going to say that, a

02:00:10.920 --> 02:00:13.260
traffic light in it. Part of that might be for

02:00:13.260 --> 02:00:14.960
security. The other part of it is they're using

02:00:14.960 --> 02:00:16.739
the information of what you're clicking to train

02:00:16.739 --> 02:00:19.699
neural networks. You're a product at that point.

02:00:19.880 --> 02:00:22.100
You think you're getting security out of it,

02:00:22.119 --> 02:00:24.039
but you're a product at that point because you're

02:00:24.039 --> 02:00:26.359
helping to educate a neural network on what traffic

02:00:26.359 --> 02:00:29.199
lights look like and how they can look and all

02:00:29.199 --> 02:00:31.020
those different instantiations of traffic lights.

02:00:33.289 --> 02:00:36.289
We have to separate causality and intention and

02:00:36.289 --> 02:00:39.189
outcomes in that the companies might do this

02:00:39.189 --> 02:00:41.409
because they want to create the greatest AI ever.

02:00:41.670 --> 02:00:44.390
But when you're issuing someone a 40 page terms

02:00:44.390 --> 02:00:47.109
of service document on everything they can do

02:00:47.109 --> 02:00:50.649
with your thing that you paid $2 ,000 for, it's

02:00:50.649 --> 02:00:53.390
just, you know, we need more ethical people.

02:00:53.470 --> 02:00:55.210
At least what Eric Prince was trying to do was

02:00:55.210 --> 02:00:58.470
right, which was we need to off ramp from some

02:00:58.470 --> 02:01:00.869
of these big things because the way that this

02:01:00.869 --> 02:01:03.770
government is going. I'm very worried about the

02:01:03.770 --> 02:01:07.329
rights of the individual now and going forward

02:01:07.329 --> 02:01:09.869
because we have an uneducated class of people

02:01:09.869 --> 02:01:13.289
for all of the reasons in the world. Like if

02:01:13.289 --> 02:01:14.750
you want to just focus on your family and you're

02:01:14.750 --> 02:01:16.010
not thinking about these things, I don't hate

02:01:16.010 --> 02:01:19.250
that for you. But the idea of individual autonomy

02:01:19.250 --> 02:01:24.069
and rights has been so shit on in recent years

02:01:24.069 --> 02:01:27.930
that when we get more uneducated and we rely

02:01:27.930 --> 02:01:30.850
– large language models are great. but they're

02:01:30.850 --> 02:01:33.390
not a foundation of learning. In other words,

02:01:33.449 --> 02:01:36.210
we have a lot of people with access to information

02:01:36.210 --> 02:01:38.850
but no wisdom. It's like when your parents would

02:01:38.850 --> 02:01:41.170
say, learn how to do addition and subtraction

02:01:41.170 --> 02:01:44.229
on paper before you use a calculator. Understand

02:01:44.229 --> 02:01:47.649
how to do research and cite sources and understand

02:01:47.649 --> 02:01:51.329
how to conduct really good analysis before you

02:01:51.329 --> 02:01:53.649
just use a neural network for everything. Because

02:01:53.649 --> 02:01:57.430
as we lose focus of our civics, And what our

02:01:57.430 --> 02:01:59.069
founders are trying to do and the uniqueness

02:01:59.069 --> 02:02:01.350
of it, which is truly unique, which is, you know,

02:02:01.350 --> 02:02:03.289
when I joined the Army, I joined the Army to

02:02:03.289 --> 02:02:05.189
get out of North Dakota. When I reenlisted in

02:02:05.189 --> 02:02:06.789
the Army, it's because I believed in the experiment.

02:02:07.010 --> 02:02:12.369
And that's another five -hour podcast. The foundation

02:02:12.369 --> 02:02:15.109
of the experiment is good, but we've eroded it

02:02:15.109 --> 02:02:18.029
in so many ways over the years and given up so

02:02:18.029 --> 02:02:20.229
many individual rights in the name of security.

02:02:20.630 --> 02:02:22.729
I'm sure it's been said on here before, but Franklin

02:02:22.729 --> 02:02:25.350
said anybody who gives up their individual rights

02:02:25.350 --> 02:02:28.350
in the name of security deserves neither. Your

02:02:28.350 --> 02:02:30.529
freedoms in the name of security deserve neither.

02:02:31.170 --> 02:02:33.609
And it's some of the ways that they've done it

02:02:33.609 --> 02:02:36.569
have been really above the surface. And it frankly.

02:02:37.739 --> 02:02:40.220
Blows my mind that we let the government get

02:02:40.220 --> 02:02:42.119
away with some of these things that we let them

02:02:42.119 --> 02:02:44.699
get away with, where you even explain it to people

02:02:44.699 --> 02:02:46.500
and like, I don't see it. Like, I don't see how

02:02:46.500 --> 02:02:49.319
that was a big deal. And I'm like, it was a total

02:02:49.319 --> 02:02:52.199
recalibration of the system that allowed the

02:02:52.199 --> 02:02:55.140
Democratic Party and the Republican Party to

02:02:55.140 --> 02:02:57.939
usurp your rights in a way that if you knew any

02:02:57.939 --> 02:03:00.699
better, you'd probably be protesting. Like some

02:03:00.699 --> 02:03:02.460
of the ways that they've done this, you know,

02:03:02.460 --> 02:03:04.680
we can go with the easy stuff like the Patriot

02:03:04.680 --> 02:03:07.560
Act, right? In the name of security, we're going

02:03:07.560 --> 02:03:10.119
to start collecting on Americans. And the Biden

02:03:10.119 --> 02:03:14.859
and Obama administration, I will say this, at

02:03:14.859 --> 02:03:16.939
risk of getting in trouble because I used to

02:03:16.939 --> 02:03:20.659
have a clearance. They had a massive vacuum cleaner,

02:03:20.800 --> 02:03:23.779
and they knew what it was vacuuming up. And they

02:03:23.779 --> 02:03:25.899
kept vacuuming it up anyway in the name of security.

02:03:26.439 --> 02:03:28.180
I'm not saying they were going after American

02:03:28.180 --> 02:03:30.979
citizens, but they certainly knew they were.

02:03:31.619 --> 02:03:34.510
And they just vacuumed shit up. and collected

02:03:34.510 --> 02:03:36.630
it and stored it in a database. In case they

02:03:36.630 --> 02:03:39.369
needed it. In case at some point we needed to,

02:03:39.390 --> 02:03:41.850
you know, come up with a narrative or get rid

02:03:41.850 --> 02:03:43.869
of somebody who's inconvenient or whatever else

02:03:43.869 --> 02:03:46.689
that just flies in the face of individual American

02:03:46.689 --> 02:03:50.609
rights and American autonomy and is really, in

02:03:50.609 --> 02:03:54.689
my mind, the anti -pattern to freedom. It's just

02:03:54.689 --> 02:03:56.810
really, really bad. I mean, I'll give you one

02:03:56.810 --> 02:03:59.109
that people always crap on me whenever I talk

02:03:59.109 --> 02:04:00.489
to them about it, but there's two that really

02:04:00.489 --> 02:04:03.149
bother me, one of them being, like, the 17th

02:04:03.149 --> 02:04:05.010
Amendment. Do you know the 17th Amendment of

02:04:05.010 --> 02:04:08.470
the Constitution? I don't. So when the founders,

02:04:08.609 --> 02:04:10.949
when you read the Federalist Papers and the Federalist

02:04:10.949 --> 02:04:13.210
Papers, I really love reading the Federalist

02:04:13.210 --> 02:04:14.750
Papers. I love reading how they informed the

02:04:14.750 --> 02:04:17.569
Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration

02:04:17.569 --> 02:04:21.949
even. John Jay, James Madison wrote these documents

02:04:21.949 --> 02:04:24.470
explaining the framework and the 17th Amendment,

02:04:24.630 --> 02:04:27.170
essentially how the Senate, the Senate, right,

02:04:27.250 --> 02:04:29.380
the 50. people there that are supposed to be

02:04:29.380 --> 02:04:31.840
representing us, was originally constructed was

02:04:31.840 --> 02:04:34.319
a state would have legislatures. And the state

02:04:34.319 --> 02:04:36.380
legislatures and the governor would appoint the

02:04:36.380 --> 02:04:38.899
senator. The reason that the founders did that

02:04:38.899 --> 02:04:42.380
was because the state governments had to give

02:04:42.380 --> 02:04:45.760
power to the federal government to exist. Back

02:04:45.760 --> 02:04:50.779
with the Articles of Confederation. Confederation,

02:04:50.859 --> 02:04:53.840
is that right? Articles of... I think it's Articles

02:04:53.840 --> 02:04:55.819
of Confederation. I'm blowing up. Sorry, I'm

02:04:55.819 --> 02:04:58.449
going nuts. Back before there was a strong centralized

02:04:58.449 --> 02:05:01.250
American government, we had problems with money.

02:05:01.289 --> 02:05:02.949
We had problems with interstate commerce and

02:05:02.949 --> 02:05:06.050
those types of things. And those articles eventually

02:05:06.050 --> 02:05:08.029
turned into what is the Constitution. But the

02:05:08.029 --> 02:05:10.449
states had to grant that power. And the signers

02:05:10.449 --> 02:05:12.510
of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution

02:05:12.510 --> 02:05:15.229
knew that the states needed to be those small

02:05:15.229 --> 02:05:17.550
projects that we talked about before where if

02:05:17.550 --> 02:05:19.869
California wanted to go nuts, let them go nuts.

02:05:20.289 --> 02:05:22.470
But it shouldn't impact what's happening in Texas.

02:05:22.569 --> 02:05:24.050
It shouldn't impact what's happening over in

02:05:24.050 --> 02:05:25.550
New England. It shouldn't impact what's happening

02:05:25.550 --> 02:05:28.500
in the Midwest. But if that goes nuts and it

02:05:28.500 --> 02:05:31.239
fails, it needs to fail. So the state senators,

02:05:31.380 --> 02:05:34.500
I'm sorry, the state legislatures would come

02:05:34.500 --> 02:05:36.600
together and they would vote for a senator. They

02:05:36.600 --> 02:05:38.840
would elect a senator. And that senator's job

02:05:38.840 --> 02:05:41.079
was to go to the federal government and protect

02:05:41.079 --> 02:05:44.340
the rights of the state, not to protect the rights

02:05:44.340 --> 02:05:47.680
of individuals per se, and certainly not to embolden

02:05:47.680 --> 02:05:50.300
the federal government. But with the 17th Amendment,

02:05:50.439 --> 02:05:53.500
what happened was the House of Representatives

02:05:53.500 --> 02:05:57.689
function was to be the petulant children of government.

02:05:57.890 --> 02:06:00.449
So their job was to come up with crazy ideas,

02:06:00.590 --> 02:06:03.010
crazy laws, all of those things. The more liberal

02:06:03.010 --> 02:06:06.289
version of government jurisprudence would be

02:06:06.289 --> 02:06:08.390
the House of Representatives, your crazy ideas.

02:06:08.590 --> 02:06:10.310
And then you had state senators who were supposed

02:06:10.310 --> 02:06:12.670
to be between the House and the president who

02:06:12.670 --> 02:06:14.750
would say, well, here's a good idea, but the

02:06:14.750 --> 02:06:17.069
rest of this is retarded, AOC. Like, we're not

02:06:17.069 --> 02:06:19.390
doing all this. That's crazy. Or whoever else.

02:06:19.850 --> 02:06:23.109
name a Republican who's an asshat as well. We're

02:06:23.109 --> 02:06:25.050
not doing these things. And that's because it

02:06:25.050 --> 02:06:27.229
would erode the state's rights and the state's

02:06:27.229 --> 02:06:29.310
constitution and what made this state great.

02:06:29.470 --> 02:06:31.489
Because what the legislatures would do is say,

02:06:31.609 --> 02:06:34.869
hey, Joe Rogan, you've made a lot of money and

02:06:34.869 --> 02:06:36.689
you've got a big podcast and a big voice and

02:06:36.689 --> 02:06:38.350
you've learned some lessons around the way and

02:06:38.350 --> 02:06:40.310
you were able to do that in Texas and you decided

02:06:40.310 --> 02:06:42.229
to come to Texas because we had all of these

02:06:42.229 --> 02:06:45.010
things that California didn't have. We need you

02:06:45.010 --> 02:06:48.399
to go to the Senate. for three years or six years

02:06:48.399 --> 02:06:51.060
or seven years, whatever it was back then, and

02:06:51.060 --> 02:06:53.659
represent those same principles. So when Obamacare

02:06:53.659 --> 02:06:55.899
comes through, you can say not only no, but fuck

02:06:55.899 --> 02:06:58.239
no, like I'm not voting for this thing. And it

02:06:58.239 --> 02:07:01.000
was to protect the state. But what the 17th Amendment

02:07:01.000 --> 02:07:05.840
did was it was redundant with the House of Representatives,

02:07:05.960 --> 02:07:08.340
which was... In the founders' eyes, the only

02:07:08.340 --> 02:07:12.100
popular vote part of the American government

02:07:12.100 --> 02:07:15.899
was the popular vote. And then you had the way

02:07:15.899 --> 02:07:17.380
the president gets elected through electors,

02:07:17.380 --> 02:07:19.300
but you had the state senate, which was appointed

02:07:19.300 --> 02:07:21.640
by the states. So the legislatures, and I'll

02:07:21.640 --> 02:07:24.319
use North Dakota where I'm from, you'll have

02:07:24.319 --> 02:07:27.739
two big cities, Fargo and Grand Forks, North

02:07:27.739 --> 02:07:31.039
Dakota. It's where the universities are. It's

02:07:31.039 --> 02:07:33.239
where your crazy kids are. Crazy thought exists.

02:07:34.180 --> 02:07:36.819
hyper crazy ideas, but some of them are useful.

02:07:37.199 --> 02:07:39.779
The rest of the state's agriculture, right? So

02:07:39.779 --> 02:07:42.300
all of those legislators from all of those counties

02:07:42.300 --> 02:07:44.279
or those legislative districts would get together

02:07:44.279 --> 02:07:47.039
and say, we're going to put Bill Thompson, that

02:07:47.039 --> 02:07:49.060
would never happen, but in charge of, he's going

02:07:49.060 --> 02:07:50.720
to be at the Senate representing North Dakota,

02:07:50.840 --> 02:07:54.319
but he has to represent the whole state. In other

02:07:54.319 --> 02:07:56.579
words, you can't do things that will help Grand

02:07:56.579 --> 02:07:58.579
Forks or Fargo because that's where the universities

02:07:58.579 --> 02:08:00.720
are. That's where all the crazy politics are.

02:08:00.960 --> 02:08:02.819
You also need to be thinking about the guys out

02:08:02.819 --> 02:08:04.739
in the western counties, Lemoore County in North

02:08:04.739 --> 02:08:07.199
Dakota or way out west. You have to protect agriculture.

02:08:07.439 --> 02:08:09.600
You have to protect small businesses. You have

02:08:09.600 --> 02:08:13.239
to protect families. What the 17th Amendment

02:08:13.239 --> 02:08:15.520
under Wendell Wilson and how they really usurped

02:08:15.520 --> 02:08:18.039
the Constitution and made the Senate a redundant.

02:08:18.539 --> 02:08:20.539
They made it a redundant House of Representatives

02:08:20.539 --> 02:08:23.119
and using the popular vote. So now we use popular

02:08:23.119 --> 02:08:26.439
vote for that. But if you want the popular vote

02:08:26.439 --> 02:08:28.500
in North Dakota, 85 percent of the population

02:08:28.500 --> 02:08:31.560
is in Fargo and Grand Forks. So now you've got

02:08:31.560 --> 02:08:33.500
if I want to run for Senate in North Dakota,

02:08:33.680 --> 02:08:35.439
I'm just going to spend all of my time in Fargo

02:08:35.439 --> 02:08:38.279
and Grand Forks. Because if I can repeat back

02:08:38.279 --> 02:08:40.039
to those people all the ideas that they want

02:08:40.039 --> 02:08:42.810
to hear. I'm going to win that vote and I don't

02:08:42.810 --> 02:08:44.229
have to represent those people out in the rest

02:08:44.229 --> 02:08:46.449
of the state in anything. Right. So they created

02:08:46.449 --> 02:08:48.369
a redundant house of representatives. But another

02:08:48.369 --> 02:08:51.050
reason why it happened was they wanted popular

02:08:51.050 --> 02:08:53.550
vote because there is no amount of money that

02:08:53.550 --> 02:08:55.289
you could stick into a legislature out in the

02:08:55.289 --> 02:08:57.850
western part of North Dakota. You can't bribe

02:08:57.850 --> 02:09:00.390
these people. But the DNC and RNC now can say,

02:09:00.449 --> 02:09:02.930
look, these two senators are running. We like

02:09:02.930 --> 02:09:04.529
this guy. So we're going to this guy will do

02:09:04.529 --> 02:09:07.289
whatever we tell him to do. And it has nothing

02:09:07.289 --> 02:09:09.090
to do with the state or representing the state's

02:09:09.090 --> 02:09:10.829
rights or the rest of those legislative districts.

02:09:11.229 --> 02:09:12.989
We're going to pick this senator and he's getting

02:09:12.989 --> 02:09:16.090
$300 million for his election bid. And this other

02:09:16.090 --> 02:09:19.329
guy, he's a slower moving constitutional conservative

02:09:19.329 --> 02:09:24.289
who might be a free market absolutist and a classical

02:09:24.289 --> 02:09:27.930
liberal. He's not being funded. But under the

02:09:27.930 --> 02:09:30.890
state architecture. You might have been a better

02:09:30.890 --> 02:09:33.270
representation of the state, and that's why the

02:09:33.270 --> 02:09:35.550
legislators had to vote for you to put you in

02:09:35.550 --> 02:09:37.750
as a senator. You had to represent the whole

02:09:37.750 --> 02:09:40.770
state. But now, all that someone who wants to

02:09:40.770 --> 02:09:42.470
be a senator needs to do is go to the Republican

02:09:42.470 --> 02:09:45.930
National Committee or the Democrat National Committee

02:09:45.930 --> 02:09:47.930
and say, I'll do all the things you tell me to

02:09:47.930 --> 02:09:51.090
do, fund my campaign, and I'm going to go stump

02:09:51.090 --> 02:09:53.210
in Fargo and Grand Forks, North Dakota, and the

02:09:53.210 --> 02:09:55.939
hell with the rest of the state. It's very important.

02:09:56.000 --> 02:09:58.060
There's a very important sleight of hand. And

02:09:58.060 --> 02:09:59.939
when that happened, you made a redundant House

02:09:59.939 --> 02:10:02.840
of Representatives and the state no longer was

02:10:02.840 --> 02:10:06.699
protected at the federal level. And what happened

02:10:06.699 --> 02:10:09.210
was all of the power. from all of these states

02:10:09.210 --> 02:10:10.630
and these legislatures and these individuals

02:10:10.630 --> 02:10:13.109
got sucked up into the federal government. And

02:10:13.109 --> 02:10:14.689
then after that, you see all of these things

02:10:14.689 --> 02:10:16.470
that would never have been passed by a state

02:10:16.470 --> 02:10:18.770
getting passed. Things like Obamacare, things

02:10:18.770 --> 02:10:21.289
like the Patriot Act, certain war resolutions,

02:10:21.630 --> 02:10:25.689
all kinds of things where it just further erodes

02:10:25.689 --> 02:10:28.970
the power of the state. And federal government

02:10:28.970 --> 02:10:30.930
wants that because it puts all of the power up

02:10:30.930 --> 02:10:32.449
in the federal government. And people always

02:10:32.449 --> 02:10:34.489
say we need to get money out of politics. No,

02:10:34.529 --> 02:10:37.310
we need to get power out of politics. That power.

02:10:37.609 --> 02:10:41.050
they've taken you know over the last 130 years

02:10:41.050 --> 02:10:43.970
or so used to exist at the state and local levels

02:10:43.970 --> 02:10:45.710
because they wanted these thought experiments

02:10:45.710 --> 02:10:47.510
happening where we could pluck the best things

02:10:47.510 --> 02:10:49.930
out of them and forget the rest but all that

02:10:49.930 --> 02:10:51.569
power has now gone up to the federal government

02:10:51.569 --> 02:10:55.659
and the federal government won't ever release

02:10:55.659 --> 02:10:57.720
that power and they only want more budget and

02:10:57.720 --> 02:11:00.140
more spending to execute that power. And that's

02:11:00.140 --> 02:11:02.100
also because the interest groups that want to

02:11:02.100 --> 02:11:03.960
go, they don't want to have to go and convince

02:11:03.960 --> 02:11:05.720
a whole state of whether or not something is

02:11:05.720 --> 02:11:07.359
good that people are going to vote on. They just

02:11:07.359 --> 02:11:09.840
want to go take a lobby and go up to the federal

02:11:09.840 --> 02:11:11.699
government because they want all of the power

02:11:11.699 --> 02:11:13.920
up there as well. And the federal government

02:11:13.920 --> 02:11:15.340
wants all the power up there as well because

02:11:15.340 --> 02:11:17.399
they make $300 ,000 a year before they become

02:11:17.399 --> 02:11:20.039
a politician. And they're worth $30 million when

02:11:20.039 --> 02:11:22.020
they're done being a politician because all of

02:11:22.020 --> 02:11:23.600
the money has to go to the federal government

02:11:23.600 --> 02:11:25.750
because they're - in charge of light bulbs we

02:11:25.750 --> 02:11:27.890
can use, computers we can use, flush toilets

02:11:27.890 --> 02:11:30.470
we can have, how our roads are going to look,

02:11:30.590 --> 02:11:34.010
what our medical care looks like. None of those

02:11:34.010 --> 02:11:36.289
powers are explicitly written in the Constitution

02:11:36.289 --> 02:11:38.510
of the United States, and they use things like

02:11:38.510 --> 02:11:40.529
the Commerce Law and other things in order to

02:11:40.529 --> 02:11:43.149
create things like Obamacare, where really we

02:11:43.149 --> 02:11:45.920
want competing states. Texas comes up with a

02:11:45.920 --> 02:11:49.420
great way to do health care and North Dakota's

02:11:49.420 --> 02:11:51.680
isn't so great. They can look at that experiment.

02:11:51.720 --> 02:11:53.720
They can adopt the principles and they can have

02:11:53.720 --> 02:11:56.340
it at that level. But it's much easier to get

02:11:56.340 --> 02:11:59.180
change at the local level when the power is derived

02:11:59.180 --> 02:12:00.939
from the state and the individual. Because if

02:12:00.939 --> 02:12:02.600
I want to change the way that my state does health

02:12:02.600 --> 02:12:05.060
care, I have one of two options or three options.

02:12:05.140 --> 02:12:07.180
I can run for office. I can support someone who

02:12:07.180 --> 02:12:09.300
is going to go into office and do what I want

02:12:09.300 --> 02:12:11.800
or I can move. But when everything's centralized

02:12:11.800 --> 02:12:13.619
at the federal government and everything flows

02:12:13.619 --> 02:12:15.399
from the federal government, all of the money,

02:12:15.479 --> 02:12:18.300
power and gravity is up there. And the individual,

02:12:18.579 --> 02:12:22.119
the 300 million of us or so, have really no power

02:12:22.119 --> 02:12:25.279
now. to exercise either states' rights or individual

02:12:25.279 --> 02:12:27.680
rights at the higher level. I hope I'm elucidating

02:12:27.680 --> 02:12:30.319
this correctly, but it's a real usurpation of

02:12:30.319 --> 02:12:32.960
individual and state autonomy that really got

02:12:32.960 --> 02:12:35.600
rid of state power, which was, if you read the

02:12:35.600 --> 02:12:37.779
federalist papers, was so important to the founders

02:12:37.779 --> 02:12:40.100
that there was this state, that the state's needs

02:12:40.100 --> 02:12:42.880
were organized because the state was where the

02:12:42.880 --> 02:12:46.140
founders wanted these thoughts. You read Thomas

02:12:46.140 --> 02:12:49.399
Hobbes, Leviathan or John Locke or Montesquieu.

02:12:49.659 --> 02:12:51.779
All of them talked about this great experiment

02:12:51.779 --> 02:12:53.539
that was being set up and how it was built on

02:12:53.539 --> 02:12:55.260
all of this Western politics and everything that

02:12:55.260 --> 02:12:57.899
had came before it on how we could have a government

02:12:57.899 --> 02:13:00.380
that was forced to respect the rights of individuals

02:13:00.380 --> 02:13:02.979
and allowed for these competing think tanks of

02:13:02.979 --> 02:13:05.439
ideas and that the power would never rest at

02:13:05.439 --> 02:13:07.420
the federal government. But the 17th Amendment.

02:13:08.150 --> 02:13:11.029
was a way that a lot of that power went from

02:13:11.029 --> 02:13:14.029
the state level and the state legislatures. And

02:13:14.029 --> 02:13:16.350
now to become the president, they want to do

02:13:16.350 --> 02:13:18.449
a popular vote. And under a popular vote, you

02:13:18.449 --> 02:13:20.270
would just have to campaign in New York and LA.

02:13:20.890 --> 02:13:23.670
You would get the popular vote out of the likely

02:13:23.670 --> 02:13:26.470
voting people. And now the rest of the country

02:13:26.470 --> 02:13:28.729
is not. And that would be another, you hear all

02:13:28.729 --> 02:13:30.250
these people saying, we need a popular vote.

02:13:30.350 --> 02:13:32.770
We can't have the electoral college. We can't

02:13:32.770 --> 02:13:34.960
have. All of these things, everything needs to

02:13:34.960 --> 02:13:38.859
be pure. Pure democracy allows 51 percent to

02:13:38.859 --> 02:13:42.060
rule 49 percent. And that was another thing the

02:13:42.060 --> 02:13:45.270
founders were working fervently to. get away

02:13:45.270 --> 02:13:47.890
from and that's why we had an electoral college

02:13:47.890 --> 02:13:50.090
and it's actually quite beautiful when you actually

02:13:50.090 --> 02:13:51.750
read about it and examine it it's why we had

02:13:51.750 --> 02:13:54.510
the state senate and state legislatures and this

02:13:54.510 --> 02:13:56.930
is why we had the house you had all levels of

02:13:56.930 --> 02:13:58.750
the things of government that the founders cared

02:13:58.750 --> 02:14:00.750
about being represented in this body politic

02:14:00.750 --> 02:14:03.329
and it was a beautiful thing and i could go on

02:14:03.329 --> 02:14:05.289
for 15 more things about that i won't do it for

02:14:05.289 --> 02:14:06.960
the sake of your listeners because i'm I doubt

02:14:06.960 --> 02:14:09.020
this is what they wanted to do, but similar things

02:14:09.020 --> 02:14:12.079
happened with the Supreme Court, Marbury v. Madison,

02:14:12.260 --> 02:14:14.300
and allowing the Supreme Court to have judicial

02:14:14.300 --> 02:14:16.359
review. That was never a thing that was in the

02:14:16.359 --> 02:14:18.819
Constitution in the Supreme Court. If you like

02:14:18.819 --> 02:14:20.699
the Supreme Court, being able to have the power

02:14:20.699 --> 02:14:22.739
to describe everything as being either constitutional

02:14:22.739 --> 02:14:24.800
or unconstitutional, then you're not ruled by

02:14:24.800 --> 02:14:27.159
a democracy. You're ruled by an oligarchy. You've

02:14:27.159 --> 02:14:28.739
got eight people in robes that are going to tell

02:14:28.739 --> 02:14:30.909
you whether or not laws are good or bad. And

02:14:30.909 --> 02:14:32.350
that's not the founding of this country. It's

02:14:32.350 --> 02:14:34.189
not how it was intended to work. And that all

02:14:34.189 --> 02:14:37.010
started back in Marbury v. Madison with Thomas

02:14:37.010 --> 02:14:40.710
Jefferson and these writs of mandamus that were

02:14:40.710 --> 02:14:43.149
the Supreme Court, long story short, essentially

02:14:43.149 --> 02:14:45.529
granted itself the power to conduct judicial

02:14:45.529 --> 02:14:48.569
review under the old system or the old system.

02:14:48.710 --> 02:14:50.909
The system that was ratified and that the founders

02:14:50.909 --> 02:14:54.909
approved was if a law was deemed unconstitutional.

02:14:55.720 --> 02:14:57.640
it would go before the Supreme Court and they

02:14:57.640 --> 02:15:00.819
would rule in favor of the person. And then eventually

02:15:00.819 --> 02:15:02.619
the government would figure out, oh, this law

02:15:02.619 --> 02:15:04.760
doesn't work. But it was never on the Supreme

02:15:04.760 --> 02:15:06.920
Court to say constitutional, unconstitutional.

02:15:07.300 --> 02:15:09.640
You would get arrested for some law and it would

02:15:09.640 --> 02:15:11.279
get appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme

02:15:11.279 --> 02:15:13.140
Court would say, we're not punishing this person.

02:15:13.180 --> 02:15:16.439
This is against the Constitution. But the government

02:15:16.439 --> 02:15:18.420
would have to keep arresting people. They'd have

02:15:18.420 --> 02:15:19.939
to keep going in front of the federal government.

02:15:20.180 --> 02:15:21.920
So what I'm saying is, and I'm sorry to go off

02:15:21.920 --> 02:15:23.859
on this, we can go back to tech, but all I'm

02:15:23.859 --> 02:15:27.149
saying is, the core of the American experiment

02:15:27.149 --> 02:15:29.390
in individual rights and what makes this country

02:15:29.390 --> 02:15:32.289
so great and why I was willing to die for it

02:15:32.289 --> 02:15:34.770
after my initial enlistment and why I have such

02:15:34.770 --> 02:15:37.250
love for this is because it was the only experiment

02:15:37.250 --> 02:15:39.369
where the value of the individual was held at

02:15:39.369 --> 02:15:41.750
the top of the hierarchy and that people could

02:15:41.750 --> 02:15:44.789
truly be allowed to flourish. And in 250 years,

02:15:44.890 --> 02:15:46.789
we did more than any society could have hoped

02:15:46.789 --> 02:15:49.210
to have achieved in tens of thousands of years.

02:15:49.310 --> 02:15:51.510
Not that it's been around that long, but in thousands

02:15:51.510 --> 02:15:56.069
of years. Everything tends towards... and everything,

02:15:56.369 --> 02:15:59.789
power always gets centralized. And we had a framework

02:15:59.789 --> 02:16:01.630
to do that, but we were willing participants

02:16:01.630 --> 02:16:04.069
in our own demise. And now we're scratching our

02:16:04.069 --> 02:16:05.729
heads and wondering why there's no individual

02:16:05.729 --> 02:16:08.069
and why there's no individual autonomy. Why a

02:16:08.069 --> 02:16:10.430
guy can't smoke weed on the weekend or why a

02:16:10.430 --> 02:16:12.949
guy can't do X, Y, or Z because we have centralized

02:16:12.949 --> 02:16:15.069
the authority and the power and the decision

02:16:15.069 --> 02:16:17.449
-making structure. And we're allowing them to

02:16:17.449 --> 02:16:19.989
be, there would be no problem with money in politics

02:16:19.989 --> 02:16:22.189
if the federal government had only the powers

02:16:22.189 --> 02:16:23.869
that were outlined to it in the constitution.

02:16:25.200 --> 02:16:28.420
I think that's very well said, and I could have

02:16:28.420 --> 02:16:30.739
never said it the way you said it. I think there's

02:16:30.739 --> 02:16:33.520
a lot to absorb here. I'm sorry. No, no, it was

02:16:33.520 --> 02:16:36.139
great, dude. It was great. This is one of the

02:16:36.139 --> 02:16:37.559
things that I love about you. You're very thorough.

02:16:38.420 --> 02:16:40.559
Yeah, thorough is one thing. My friends always

02:16:40.559 --> 02:16:43.360
say Bill's tism is starting to show. You got

02:16:43.360 --> 02:16:45.139
a touch of the tism, but I think that's good.

02:16:45.260 --> 02:16:47.760
Like I said, just like ADHD, I think it's a superpower.

02:16:48.280 --> 02:16:51.540
A lot to absorb. I think we'll wrap it up right

02:16:51.540 --> 02:16:53.540
here. But thank you. This was an awesome conversation.

02:16:53.819 --> 02:16:55.159
I really appreciate it. It was really great.

02:16:55.479 --> 02:16:57.959
Yeah. We could do this again, too. I'm sure we

02:16:57.959 --> 02:16:59.719
could probably have 30 or 40 of these. We didn't

02:16:59.719 --> 02:17:01.600
even get to AI. I wanted to get to AI because

02:17:01.600 --> 02:17:04.040
I think I have a very anti -pattern to AI and

02:17:04.040 --> 02:17:06.819
how you understand it. But if you want, we can

02:17:06.819 --> 02:17:08.440
save that for another time. Yeah, we'll do that

02:17:08.440 --> 02:17:09.700
for our next one because I think that's another

02:17:09.700 --> 02:17:13.159
four hours. Yeah, probably. Yeah, for sure. And

02:17:13.159 --> 02:17:15.180
by then, who knows where it's going to be. Jensen

02:17:15.180 --> 02:17:18.620
Huang from NVIDIA. recently declared that we've

02:17:18.620 --> 02:17:22.840
reached agr yeah so i would i would yeah i could

02:17:22.840 --> 02:17:26.840
yeah i just couldn't disagree more and i think

02:17:26.840 --> 02:17:28.540
i could in the same way i just elucidate you're

02:17:28.540 --> 02:17:30.500
not the only one there's quite a few people yeah

02:17:30.500 --> 02:17:33.020
yeah i mean it's consciousness projection and

02:17:33.020 --> 02:17:34.620
i'll sum it up in a minute at the end of the

02:17:34.620 --> 02:17:38.479
day um neural networks are mathematical functions

02:17:38.479 --> 02:17:41.899
they rest in you know weighting neurons based

02:17:41.899 --> 02:17:43.940
on training data and applying power to train

02:17:43.940 --> 02:17:47.540
models it's all mathematic There's no sense of

02:17:47.540 --> 02:17:51.420
knowing there in that, you know, Penrose, I've

02:17:51.420 --> 02:17:54.819
read a lot of on his or if people want to read

02:17:54.819 --> 02:17:58.440
about that, I won't explain it. Or orchestrated

02:17:58.440 --> 02:18:01.360
objective reduction and how the mind works in

02:18:01.360 --> 02:18:03.100
these fleets of consciousness that we have, these

02:18:03.100 --> 02:18:04.959
shimmers of consciousness that we have based

02:18:04.959 --> 02:18:07.360
around what he describes in the microtubule.

02:18:08.299 --> 02:18:10.840
We get conscious thought. And that conscious

02:18:10.840 --> 02:18:13.319
thought we project into things. AI is very good

02:18:13.319 --> 02:18:16.180
conscious projection, but it will never have

02:18:16.180 --> 02:18:18.340
consciousness or knowing because it has no system

02:18:18.340 --> 02:18:20.260
of values. And if we were to instill values in

02:18:20.260 --> 02:18:21.899
it, it would still be consciousness projection.

02:18:22.940 --> 02:18:25.840
You saw my dad's cabin. My dad died when I was

02:18:25.840 --> 02:18:27.600
five, but I bought it back and was working on

02:18:27.600 --> 02:18:30.440
it. And inside of his cabin, I got to learn a

02:18:30.440 --> 02:18:33.100
lot about my father by working on the cabin that

02:18:33.100 --> 02:18:35.379
he built. He would measure things and cut things

02:18:35.379 --> 02:18:37.760
right on walls and that type of stuff. That's

02:18:37.760 --> 02:18:39.479
all consciousness projection that allowed me

02:18:39.479 --> 02:18:41.639
to get to know him away. I might not have even

02:18:41.639 --> 02:18:44.700
known him if he were alive, but I got to re -experience

02:18:44.700 --> 02:18:46.379
and understand my father and his thoroughness

02:18:46.379 --> 02:18:49.200
through that cabin. AI is consciousness projection.

02:18:49.260 --> 02:18:51.200
It's projected consciousness. It's getting very

02:18:51.200 --> 02:18:54.299
good, but on a calculator, you could get the

02:18:54.299 --> 02:18:56.879
same thing that you get out of a neural network

02:18:56.879 --> 02:18:59.639
if you had sufficient time. I could present you

02:18:59.639 --> 02:19:01.840
a question just like you did on propensity. I

02:19:01.840 --> 02:19:03.700
could sit here with a rule book, and I could

02:19:03.700 --> 02:19:06.940
type in a calculator. It might take me a million

02:19:06.940 --> 02:19:09.479
years, but I could do it and I could give you

02:19:09.479 --> 02:19:11.100
the same answer that a neural network would give

02:19:11.100 --> 02:19:14.059
you. That doesn't mean consciousness or knowing

02:19:14.059 --> 02:19:17.959
or AGI is present. It relies on its training

02:19:17.959 --> 02:19:19.799
data. It can only give you what the training

02:19:19.799 --> 02:19:23.200
data gives it. It needs human consciousness projection

02:19:23.200 --> 02:19:25.920
like we talked about with the CAPTCHAs or we

02:19:25.920 --> 02:19:27.920
talked about with uploading photos to Google

02:19:27.920 --> 02:19:31.180
Drive. It needs that training data. And to me,

02:19:31.219 --> 02:19:34.680
it's just really fancy, clever math. And having

02:19:34.680 --> 02:19:37.819
trained these networks for a dozen years now

02:19:37.819 --> 02:19:41.260
and working with them, they're just really clever

02:19:41.260 --> 02:19:44.139
consciousness projection. And so, yeah, that

02:19:44.139 --> 02:19:46.620
is four hours and we can do that next time. We'll

02:19:46.620 --> 02:19:48.579
do that next time. Definitely. But if people,

02:19:48.739 --> 02:19:50.600
you mentioned the app. By the time we do it next

02:19:50.600 --> 02:19:52.120
time, who knows what the fuck is going to be

02:19:52.120 --> 02:19:55.520
going on with AI too. But if people want to learn

02:19:55.520 --> 02:19:57.920
more about me or my company, if I can say that.

02:19:57.979 --> 02:20:00.559
Yeah, please. It's spartanforge .ai. We're built

02:20:00.559 --> 02:20:02.659
under the rubric of individual freedom. I want

02:20:02.659 --> 02:20:04.659
people. outdoors. I want people hunting. I want

02:20:04.659 --> 02:20:08.399
people experiencing nature. I want people providing

02:20:08.399 --> 02:20:10.559
for their families. The best part of my day is

02:20:10.559 --> 02:20:13.040
when my kids are eating a backstrap of an animal

02:20:13.040 --> 02:20:15.860
that I took. And I want to enable people to go

02:20:15.860 --> 02:20:17.659
out and do that. Even though it's paradoxical

02:20:17.659 --> 02:20:19.260
through an app, you can get lost. You've got

02:20:19.260 --> 02:20:21.000
to conserve time. You've got to e -scout. You've

02:20:21.000 --> 02:20:22.299
got to learn things before you go out there.

02:20:22.680 --> 02:20:24.600
So we built this company under that. It's one

02:20:24.600 --> 02:20:26.450
of my... I've got three other companies that

02:20:26.450 --> 02:20:28.389
I'm doing, but Spartan Forge is the one that

02:20:28.389 --> 02:20:30.290
I'm working on. It's an awesome app. Well, I

02:20:30.290 --> 02:20:31.790
really appreciate that. We've put a lot of work

02:20:31.790 --> 02:20:33.430
into it, and we've got a lot more coming over

02:20:33.430 --> 02:20:35.809
the summer. So if people want to support us or

02:20:35.809 --> 02:20:37.850
want to get out there and get some hunting done,

02:20:37.989 --> 02:20:40.010
please check it out. And I answer all the Instagram

02:20:40.010 --> 02:20:42.709
DMs, so if you have a question for me. Good luck

02:20:42.709 --> 02:20:45.030
with that now. Well, I try to. I spend about

02:20:45.030 --> 02:20:48.069
two hours every morning doing it. Good luck.

02:20:48.229 --> 02:20:49.510
Thank you, Joe, for having me. Thanks, brother.

02:20:49.670 --> 02:20:51.530
Appreciate you very much. Yeah, I dig that. All

02:20:51.530 --> 02:20:52.469
right, you too. Bye, everybody.