Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan
Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by
night, all day. Okay, so when we scheduled this,
there was nothing happening. The world was so
peaceful. Every time we're here, something crazy
is going on, man. Yeah, maybe we manifest it.
To be honest, 2026 did start with a bang. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, a lot of things, you know,
it's just nothing seems stable everywhere. Everywhere
in the world seems fucked right now. In all of
my years, this seems the most unstable globally.
Like I never worried that the UK was going to
be like complete chaos, arresting 12 ,000 people
for social media posts and abandoning trial by
jury, all that shit. I never thought the Ukraine
-Russia war would go on this long. Never thought.
Never thought they would just continue bombing
Gaza and then what's happening now? They just
sort of stop? And now they're talking about putting
a resort there? What? You hear that and you go,
are you fucking serious? Right. Tim Dillon has
a – I won't give the bit away. He has a fucking
phenomenal bit about staying in that resort.
Yeah, and you boys have been busy as well, Joe.
Yeah, and I was going to get to that, the embarrassing
part. In the middle of Ramadan, you take out
the leader of a Muslim country and – They're
hangry already and you're fucking with it. They're
really, yeah, they can't even drink water. And
then, you know, I was listening to Tim Dillon's
podcast today. He's got a great podcast with
Ryan Grimm and one other gentleman. But one of
the things that they brought up was that some
of these drone attacks, it doesn't even seem
like they're from Iran. Some of these drone attacks
on Gulf states, like that one of them. I don't
want to speak out of turn because I'm not exactly
sure which ones they're talking about. They're
talking about one of them on either it's an oil
refinery. I think it is an oil refinery. It doesn't
seem like it came from Iran. Where did it come
from? That's a good question. One of their proxies?
That's a good question. The fear is a false flag.
That's the fear. Like if you really wanted to
get really scared of what we were dragged into.
you're dragged into an ally that's not telling
you the truth and is also doing some other stuff.
Not even saying that that's the case, but a lot
of people are assuming that that's what it is.
But that's what happens when you have an absence
of information. Right. So the moment you have
an absence of information, there's a vacuum.
And nature abhors a vacuum. You need to have
that vacuum filled. So that's where conspiracies
naturally flourish. 100%. Because if people don't
have information, then they're going to... basically
theorize. Right. And part of people theorizing
is conspiracies are going to start flourishing.
Well, I think they were basing it on where the
drone came from. Let's see if we can find some
information on that, Jamie. I will try. It was
Jeremy Scahill was the other reporter on the
video. I just find it amazing now how many people
have a hard take on what's going on. I'm like,
we don't know a fucking thing about what's going
on. The coin is in the air, right? And we do
not know how it's going to... But everyone's
got a take. Everyone knows. We do not fucking...
I don't think anyone knows. I understand if you
work at the White House or if you work in Russian
propaganda or you work in Chinese propaganda
or if you work in Iranian. You've got to get
your point of view across to try and persuade
people. But if you're actually trying to work
out what... It's genuinely happening. I don't
think anyone knows. This is a gamble of gigantic
proportions, and nobody knows how it's going
to end. It's just so unpredictable. And I can
tell you a great story that is positive for the
West, let's say, or for America. I can tell you
a terrible story, and they both sound very convincing,
and no one knows which one of them is true. Yeah,
that's a very good point. This is the hot take
culture, right? Right. Everyone has a take, and
they want that take to be that expert take. So
specific drone attack incidents that call potential
false flags. Saudi Arabia, Saudi Aramco, rather,
oil facility attack. So Iranian officials deny
striking the Saudi Aramco processing facility
and instead suggest Israel may have carried out
that attack as a false flag to inflame Gulf opinion
and pull Saudi Arabia more directly into the
war with Iran. So Ryan Grim explicitly says he
thinks Iran's claims that Israel hit the Aramco
facility need to be taken seriously and that
it's very possible Israel did it. And this was
the other one, the drone strike on the British
base in Cyprus. That was from Lebanon, right?
Yeah. Is that what they're saying? Yeah. It may
have come from the direction of Lebanon. He places
this in the same context of Iran claiming Israel
carried out certain attacks in neighboring states
as false flags to blame on Iran and drag those
countries into the war. This doesn't make any
logical sense to me because those countries are
already in the war. I mean Saudi Arabia and UAE
have been attacked by Iran because. they were
on the phone to Trump basically asking him to
do this. This is another weird one. The Tucker
Carlson one. You saw that, right? No. So Tucker
Carlson said that... Oh, yeah, yeah. They had
been arrested. The members of Mossad had been
arrested in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. But both
Qatar and Saudi Arabia have said it's not true.
Yeah. They've officially denied such arrests.
Their own Saudi sources also denied it, though
they note details don't prove it didn't happen,
and that states would almost certainly hide such
arrests if real. Huh. The thing, Joe, is that
these countries, so Saudi Arabia and UAE, Qatar
less so, they want this to happen because they
also hate Iran or the Iranian regime. Right.
So there is no need for Israel. Even if you,
you know, if people are tempted to believe there's
no need for Israel to do this because these countries
are already in it. Right. And that one of the
reasons Iran has attacked things in Saudi Arabia
and in the UAE is they know that. Right. Right.
So the Gulf countries are on board with this.
Right. So what would what would be let's assume
that the false flag. that it's in play. Why?
Why would Israel, how would they benefit from
doing that? That's what I'm saying. There is
no rationale that I can think of. The people
that think the false flag is real, why do they
think that? What do they think that Israel would
benefit from it? Is there a scenario where you
could imagine it would inflame things and further
support other countries? contributing to the
i mean there's a lot of money that's being spent
on this war right right this is insane amount
of money just for munitions just for missiles
yeah yeah and then rebuilding iran if we get
to that right maybe another resort yeah so but
i just don't see the rationale because the the
gulf countries are already targets for iran right
there's nothing to inflame like the situation
is already pretty inflamed right and it's partly
inflamed because as i say actually the gulf states
and Israel are pretty aligned on this particular
thing. They're all at threat from the Iranian
regime. So we had Eamon Dean and Richard Minnitzer
on our show the other day. One of them is an
Al -Qaeda MI6 double agent. Another one is a
really reputable investigative journalist, Richard.
Al -Qaeda MI6 double agent? Yeah. What balls.
And he has a great podcast now as well called
Conflicted. What a great name for a podcast where
a guy was a double agent. Yeah, yeah. What balls
that guy must have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really
cool guy. But anyway, I mean, he was explaining
that Saudi Arabia has a population that is way
bigger than what they can sustain in terms of
the water. But they live in the fucking desert.
So they have these desalination plants, which
are extremely vulnerable. And Saudi Arabia, UAE,
these other countries, they felt at huge risk
from Iranian attacks for a long time. So they
none of them like the Iranian regime that's spreading
terrorism through its proxies. So in actual fact,
dragging them into the war kind of like there's
no sense for that. I think there's a lot of people
just. They go to reaction now whenever anything
happens is that it was Israel's fault. Like Venezuela.
Fuck all to do with Israel. But when it happened,
everyone was like, oh, it's Israel. I think some
people just go to that now as the automatic response,
which comes back to what I was saying earlier
about the hot take culture. Something happened
three minutes ago and now everyone's got a fucking
take on it. You don't know anything. None of
us know anything. None of us know how this is
going to go because this right now is a highly
unpredictable situation. I don't think the White
House knows how this is going to go. And when
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It's terrifying, and it's exactly the opposite
of what we were told leading into this administration,
that it's going to be America first and no more
unnecessary foreign wars. There's the other thing
that – do you remember Desert Storm? Yeah. Desert
Storm, quick and easy, baby. Woo, we went in,
kicked some ass, took some names. That's a wrap.
Pulled out. There was only one base that got
hit, so there was the amount of deaths by American
citizens was – Fairly minimal. I think that's
what got people so confident into entering Iran
after 9 -11. Excuse me, Iraq after 9 -11. To
go back, like we already fucked them up once.
We're going to go back and this is going to be
easy. Well, it wasn't easy the second time. It
was drawn out and it didn't make any sense. But
people wanted some form of revenge, something
for 9 -11. And so somehow or another they justified
a war with a country that had zero to do with
it. It didn't even make sense. That one took
– and then we also invaded Afghanistan at the
same time. What did we do? What the fuck? So
in the fog of this idea of American exceptionalism,
we're just going to go in and fix it. We did
it before. There's no one even close to us. Well,
look how that turned out. Yeah, well, this is
completely true. And there's this idea that it's
so easy to take one regime, remove it, and then
just put another one in its place, like it's
a Lego block. And then all of a sudden, you're
going to magically fix a country. It's a fantasy.
Like if you take Iran, the IRGC, which is the
Islamic Revolutionary Guard, numbers around 200
,000 trained soldiers. And not only are they
trained soldiers, they're fanatical. They're
fanatics. And then you have the secret police
and then you have the regular police. And then
you have the people employed in the government
and then their families and so on and so forth.
And then the supporters within the country. And
then you've got the various factions within Iran,
like the Kurds, who want independence. So the
moment the leadership is weakened, they're going
to use it as an opportunity to launch their own
revolution to try and break away from the rest
of Iran. So you have all of these particular
parts, these factions, and then you think if
you take out the top, the guy at the top who's
holding it all together by force, I'm not saying
I agree with him or what he does, you have the
very real risk that the entire country is going
to disintegrate as what happened in Iran, in
Iraq, sorry. And also Libya. Yeah. That was a
big risk. The idea that you could just take the
guy out and that's a wrap. I mean, it doesn't
seem like... Well thought out. Well, I mean,
I guess they would say Venezuela, right? Like
a regime adjustment. It's a completely different
kind. Of course. Of course. This is a religious
fanatical. Right. It's a totally different kind
of country. Also, it's a country that's been
under threat for decades. Right. So they've been
preparing for this kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
And also with Venezuela, it wasn't a regime change.
Practically everybody who was in the old regime
is still there. It's a regime adjustment. Exactly.
Exactly. So Delcy Rodriguez. was one of the senior
leaders in Maduro's regime. They just took out
Maduro and his wife. They put Delci Rodriguez
there. But the whole structure, the whole leadership,
the whole party is still in place. So what they've
done is they put Delci at the top and they've
said to her, look, if you fuck about, you're
going to get what your boss got. So you're going
to follow what we say. You're going to do what
we say. You are going to open up the oil refineries.
We're going to build it. You're going to start
pumping oil out. You're going to stop messing
about with Hezbollah, which they had training
camps in the island of Margarita, which is a
little Caribbean island two and a half hours
away from Miami. Training camps. You can't have
that. You're not going to be fraternizing with
the Cubans. And you're going to play ball. And
essentially, Venezuela is now a colony of the
United States. That's what it's now become. That's
wild. Well, there's also the Kurt Metzger angle,
which is hilarious. Kurt Metzger cornered me
one night at the mothership, and he explained
to me that this was all about the 2020 election
and that Maduro somehow or another had something
to do with rigging the 2020 election, and he's
going to say it as a part of his testimony. He's
like, just wait. Just wait. Mark my words. He's
convinced of this. He goes down the rabbit hole
to the lava. He passes, and he's like, this rabbit
hole's been covered up. It goes deeper, and he
keeps going until he's at the fucking center
of the earth. He's a funny guy, though. Oh, he's
hilarious. He's hilarious. He's mentally ill,
but he's hilarious. He's one of the funniest
people I know, like, ever. Fantastic joke writer,
too. I mean, he's just great all around. But
Jesus Christ, like, some of his... nutty theories.
They go so far. Oh, absolutely. I've been in
bars with Kurt where he starts talking to me
and I'm like, Kurt, I don't even know what we're
talking about anymore. Well, he changes conspiracies
mid -sentence. He starts bringing up some shit
from the 70s and there's the church committee
and this and that and MKUltra and don't you know
about Monarch? Like, what? Slow down. Like, not
everybody knows what you're talking about. But
I think... This is, and I love Kurt, but this
is kind of where you feel that the truth isn't
enough. So there needs to be something else.
There needs to be something that goes deeper
than that. And sometimes there is, don't get
me wrong. Sometimes it does go deeper. But sometimes
you're making connections where there are no
connections. It's pretty simple with Venezuela,
what was going on. They were fucking about. And
they were doing it for a long time. And they
were doing it in America's backyard. And they
had warning after warning. And Maduro, the way
I'd push back against Kurt is I'm really sorry,
Kurt, but Maduro ain't that bright. Well, I don't
think he has to be that bright to finance and
make sure and arrange things because they did.
There was like some. Something connected to the
voting machines that were there. They made those
claims. Who was that woman? Sidney Powell, was
it? Here we go. She's another fun one. Post -2020
from Trump allies like Sidney Powell and Rudy
Giuliani claiming Hugo Chavez, Maduro's predecessor,
developed rigged software to export to U .S.
firms. These were promoted by figures like Mike
Lindell. He makes a great pillow. You should
listen to him. And amplified on social media.
But courts and fact checks rejected them, including
Fox News. $787 million Dominion settlement. Yeah,
I was going to say I was pretty sure that those
claims were debunked. Yeah, not to Kurt. He's
like, you guys don't know where the hard drives
are. They're in the center of the earth. We've
got to get there. Yeah, that doesn't make much
sense to me. Neither does this idea that you're
going to take over a country's oil supply. You
know, like that, you know, we'll just take it.
The problem is from the outside. Like the rest
of the world. You look at this unnecessary aggression
by the United States government, and then you
tack on whatever propaganda they have already
been spitting out about America for the last
20 or 30 years. And then this war with Iran gets
really ugly because that's how you start a World
War III. You start a World War III by doing something
that, other than people that wanted this forever,
who else thinks that's a good idea? Who else
thinks it's a good idea to just attack a country
that isn't doing anything? They haven't done
anything. Like if you have proof that they have
developed depleted uranium and they've got it
up to a point where it's – they've got it to
– what percentage does it have to be? Like they're
at 60, right? But that's way more than you need.
Way more than you need, right? So it shows that
they're at least ramping up their production
where it's possible to get it to whatever it
needs to make it. That's way more than you need
for civilian use, right? Right. But that's still
– it's not – clear that that justifies an invasion
when North Korea has nuclear weapons. It's like,
do we just want, are we just trying to prevent
them from ever getting to a point where they're
like North Korea? Who the fuck is worried about
North Korea? Zero people. This episode is brought
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a website or domain. I think the difference,
as you correctly said earlier, is these people
are very different to the North Koreans, right?
North Korea wants to be left the fuck alone.
Iran does not want to be left alone. Iran wants
to dominate the region. That's why they fund
Hamas. It's why they fund Hezbollah. It's why
they fund the Houthis. It's why they are doing
shit. That's why the Gulf countries and Israel
are very worried about them, right? So that's
the difference, I think. And then there's the,
you know, some of the people we've had on the
show who are Iranian have talked about the, what
is it called, 12 Shia Islam? I can't remember
the details, but basically they have a kind of
messianic vision of what's going to happen. And
they believe that when the world ends, that's
when the prophecy will be fulfilled. You don't
want those guys with nuclear weapons. Right.
That's a good point. Yeah. So from that perspective,
it's different to North Korea. And so that's
I think that's part of the thinking. But your
point is interesting to me about the fact that
this doesn't reflect what people, you know, as
we're not Americans, but it doesn't seem to have
been part of the policy platform of the Trump.
election, the last election, right? No doubt
at all. But I do think there is some kind of
strategy behind all of this. And I'm very curious
what that is. Because I guess if you think about
it logically, you would say, well, is it an attempt
to effectively push back against China and Russia
infiltrating all these countries, right? China
and Russia were very close with Maduro in Venezuela.
Very, very close. Like Francis is saying, Hezbollah
training camps, Isla Margarita. Where was the
oil going? Right. Same with Iran. I mean, Iran
sells its oil to China and sends suicide drones
to Russia to use in Ukraine. So maybe it's that
maybe the strategy is you're trying to push back
against Chinese and Russian influence in all
these countries because you can't attack them
directly because you can't attack them directly.
Right. Yeah. But this is all just guessing on
my part. And that's what I'm really curious.
We're going to do some interviews on this trip
to kind of like I want to get someone on the
show who can go. This is the strategy. Right.
This is what we're doing, because I think, as
we were saying earlier, it's not very clear to
most people what the rationale behind all of
this is. But I also don't think this sort of
like mad dog Trump idea is true either. I think
he has a strategy. I'd just love to know what
it is. And it's very interesting because there's
been talk about regime change in Cuba. And one
of the things, so... I think that's next, genuinely.
Oh, my God. I think that's next. So when Chavez
came to power in 99, what he did, and not enough
people talk about this, is he turned what was
a very corrupt, admittedly, liberal Western -style
democracy into a communist dictatorship. And
how do you do that? You can't just literally
do that overnight. So what he did is he allied
with the Cubans and... Fidel in particular, Fidel
Castro. Venezuela provided Cuba with cheap oil,
which helped to keep the Cuban economy afloat
because Cuba has been going broke since however
many years, 40 odd years. And what Castro did
was he gave him the boots on the ground in Venezuela.
but also the technical expertise and know -how
in order to change a Western liberal democracy
into a communist state with permanent surveillance,
secret police, subjugate the population so there
was no chance of them ever being able to revolt
and turn everything, like I said, into a communist
state. So by what they did in Venezuela, Venezuela
can no longer support Cuba. So Cuba... is literally
now withering on the vine as a result of them
knocking out the Venezuelans. So it's going to
come to a point where you say Cuba effectively
going to go bankrupt, which could precipitate
an uprising, a revolution by people when people
can no longer eat. And that would mean that that
country is then weakened. Finally, they can get
rid of the communist regime there and they can
have a different type of government, one which
will be far more sympathetic, shall we say, to.
working with America and being an American island.
Possibly. That makes sense to me in a way. What
I don't understand about the Iran thing is like,
what is the end goal here? Well, you've got Reza
Pahlavi, the Shah's son. I mean, he left Iran
a long time ago as a kid, right? You know, the
idea that he's going to go back in there and
be welcomed by the masses. Maybe that's true.
It's like Daenerys returning to the Iron Throne.
Yeah, but Daenerys had three fucking dragons,
right? But you know what I'm saying, like she
left when she was a baby. Yeah, that's right.
And it's not like the people are desperately,
I don't know, maybe the people are desperate
for the return of the show. Well, it seems like
some people are desperate for a change there.
The people that were protesting, the people that
risked their lives, 100%. Like every country,
like if you only listen to the liberals in this
country, you would think that no one's illegal
on stolen land. Right. If you only listen to
the Republicans in this country, you would think
we got to find every illegal and get them out
of our country and make America great again.
Like it doesn't make sense if we just go only
by the protesters. Like we don't really have
accurate polling because they don't have any
free speech over there. Right. No. And they've
killed like – famous athletes over there for
protesting. I mean, they killed the Olympic gold
medalists in wrestling. The UFC tried to step
in and try to do something to stop it. They executed
him. Apparently, I don't even think he was actually
protesting. I think he was just at a protest.
He wasn't even saying anything. And this is the
thing you always have to bear in mind, Joe. I
might be wrong about that, though. No, I think
you are right. Am I right about that? The final
details, I'm not sure, but the fact that he was
executed. Yes, he was executed. I know Dana worked
very hard to try and save that guy, right? I
think there was some discrepancy as to whether
or not he was actually participating in the protest.
That also could have been the defense. I don't
know. But, I mean, the fact that they execute
people. who protest. There's no way you can support
that kind of, that's a scary ass fucking government
and run by religious fanatics. That's a scary
ass government. But the question is, how scary
ass does it have to get where invading makes
sense? Because if this keeps going, like if we,
we have to go boots on the ground. That's where
things get nuts. You can't go boots on the ground,
man. You can't. You can't. Right. I don't think
there's any... You should be president of the
United States. There's a lot of people that are
going to disagree with that. No, I don't think
that's viable. It might be robot boots on the
ground. If Elon gets that factory up in time.
What I want to know is, what is it that you're
working towards? From what I understand, talking
to some of the people, Israel would quite like
a Reza Pahlavi monarchy because the other Middle
Eastern countries that they have peace with,
you know, Bahrain, Morocco, increasingly the
Gulf states, they're all monarchies. Right. Right.
So they're down with that. But from what I understand,
the White House is really not that interested
in Pahlavi. And so what do they want? Well, one
of the things that Richard Minniter broke on
our show because it hadn't been reported anywhere
else was that the White House has given the Israelis
a no kill list, which is basically a list of
members of the current regime that they don't
want to be killed because they have hoped that
these people could then be the Rodriguez equivalent
in Iran. Right. And I don't know that the fanatics
within the Iranian regime who are there now.
how many of them are like this, like Darth Vader,
but like, do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're
kind of looking for... Darth Vader's zero. Yeah,
no, no, no. Zero Islamism. I don't know that
that exists, right? Right. Sugar -free. Sugar
-free. Islamism -free. So that's the bit. And
that doesn't mean that there isn't like a plan.
Right. But I don't know what the fuck that plan
is right now. And I find it hard to see one.
So regime evil regime gone wonderful. But what
but the question is always like what comes after
that, right? That's always the question and that's
where I think your point is very true, which
is in the past There have been times where this
sort of approach has gone completely off the
rails Yeah, that's a fact and it's also as well.
What has been coming out of the Trump camp is
contradictory, to put it mildly. You have Hegsev
saying one thing, you have Trump saying another.
They contradict each other at certain points.
Is that a tactic in order to befuddle the opponent?
Maybe. Who knows? Or is it the fact that they
don't actually have a grand vision? Was there
some sort of a concession today on Russian oil?
Yeah. Well, I think, first of all, Trump let
India buy Iranian oil. And I think now they are
lifting the sanctions on Russia selling its oil
because the oil prices spiked as much as they
did. Here it goes. U .S. eases limits on Russian
energy as oil prices soar. Right. You've got
the Pink Floyd t -shirt, so it's appropriate.
But you can see it. The oil prices spiked for,
what, one day, two days? Yeah. And everyone went
full panic straight away. But the thing is, if
that carries on for two months... The impact
of that on domestic politics. I mean, I'm not
an expert in American politics, but even I can
say that's going to be pretty fucking important.
Oh, it's bad. Right. Yeah. It's going to be bad.
I mean, if oil prices spike, we're fucked. Yeah.
You know, and the Republicans are really fucked.
Yeah. And you've got the midterms. You got the
midterms coming up in November. And it's also
the momentum will be in their way. And look,
there's second, third, fourth order consequences.
So at the moment in the UK, the vast majority
of people are finding it more and more difficult
just to get through to the end of the month because
of the cost of living, inflation. It's becoming
worse and worse. I was talking to a butcher in
my area, which is this very nice part of North
London. You know the type of place I'm talking
about. Everyone loves BLM. No one has a black
friend. That kind of place, right? OK, that's
the kind of area it is. And he was telling me
that even in this very wealthy area, people are
starting to ration meat now. So before they'd
have meat five days a week. Now they're going
down to three or two. And this isn't a wealthy
area. So now imagine if there's energy spikes
and then food becomes more and more expensive.
There is already a very worrying hard left. political
movement growing in the uk where they're talking
about you know the capitalism doesn't work we
need socialism and there's a there's this new
politician come to the fore guy called zach polanski
who talks about what we need in this country
and the uk is socialism now imagine if the cost
of living crisis gets worse and the vast majority
of people who work hard in a regular job can't
make ends meet through literal no fault of their
own Can you blame them for going, hang on, capitalism
doesn't work? Because in this instance, at that
moment, it doesn't work for them. And then that
could spark something completely disastrous for
our country. Yeah. But I think, you know, that's
a negative story. I think it's incredibly persuasive.
And I lean more in the direction that this could
go badly. But I also think there is the possibility
of this goes well, too. I think that is possible.
How do you envision that scenario? If they're
able to keep the Strait of Hormuz open, and you
don't have this energy problems that we've got
now, you know, Venezuela, Cuba, he's basically
resetting the region. And he's basically saying
to all the people that want to align themselves
with China and Russia, like, we're not fucking
about here. Don't cross these lines. That is
an opportunity to address the slide that the
Western world has had vis -a -vis China and Russia
for a very long time. That could be a very positive
thing. The thing is what happens in Iran, like
that is the thing that I don't really see how
that goes well. It might do. Like I said, there's
probably a plan that we don't know. And if that
works out, that could be very good. OK. What
would you imagine that plan would be if you –
If you like, let's let's imagine best case scenario.
You're in the White House. They're all very rational.
No one's being influenced by foreign government
governments. No one's incompetent. Everybody
knows what they're doing. Well, yeah. I mean,
we're in the realms of fantasy. But I mean, take
the Soviet Union, which is obviously something
that I know. Right. born in the Soviet Union,
Russia. Towards the end of the Soviet Union,
you still had some fanatical communists. And
in fact, throughout the Soviet Union, you always
had within the government a mixture of different
people, right? You had the fanatical communists
who believed that communism is the only thing
that was ever going to work, etc. But you also
had people who were reformers. They saw the problems.
They saw the fanatical. communists were ruining
things and things were getting worse, right?
They saw that you had to kill more and more of
your own people to keep shit locked down, right?
So the argument could be within the Iranian Revolutionary
Guard or the regime more broadly. There are people
who are like, you know, I'm not necessarily that
keen on the guy who runs Syria now, al -Jilani,
right? He is a jihadi, but he's kind of like
a moderate one, you know. I don't know how long
it's going to last, but my point is within every
regime, there is some range of opinion. There
is some range of fanaticism. There is some range
of people who, partly for generational reasons,
the younger people have seen a 40 -year history
and they now go, okay, this isn't working anymore.
We need to try something else. That is possible.
So if the CIA and the White House have someone
like that and they can do a regime adjustment,
And like I think the idea that you're going to
have, you know, multi -parliamentary democracy
with, you know, free and fair elections and women,
you know, like Venice Beach, you know, rollerblading
on bikinis on. I don't know that that's going
to happen. Right. But what you might have is
an authoritarian regime of some kind, like many
other countries in the Middle East. which realizes
that actually economic growth is more important
than shouting Allah Akbar every three minutes
and blowing shit up, right? That focuses on making
life better for their citizens. That, you know,
practices traditional Muslim values, which many
countries do, and says, you know, women ought
to be modest, but doesn't force them to wear
the burqa or the headscarf or whatever. And is
less interested in destabilizing the region and
attacking others and trying to be this great
power. And is more interested in just prosperity
for its own people, survival for themselves as
a regime, and is willing to play ball with the
United States. Well said. Yeah, well said. That's
best case scenario. That's best case scenario.
Now, if you get there, I think that would be
a huge win for President Trump and it'd be a
huge win for the world. And he will walk away
from that with a huge win. And I think you're
a better expert on the American people, but I
think American people like winning, right? So
if you have all this happen, he can then say,
well, look, we did this, we did this, we did
this. Russia and China have been pushed back.
Iran is not going to get a nuke, which is important.
I think we can all agree on that, right? There
is the possibility that he comes out of this
very well. I think that... based on what I see,
but I don't know. Coming back to what we said,
I think we share this kind of perspective, really,
Francis and I. That seems somewhat less likely.
The point is harder to see. But I think you can
tell a persuasive story both ways. I really do.
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makes sense. And what you're saying, I think,
is very valid that we need to abandon any idea
of them having some sort of a democracy over
there. It's not going to happen. No. And, you
know, you do look at the relationships that we
have with other Gulf state nations seems fine,
right? It's not threatening to us. We would like
everyone to be free and have the same sort of
liberal democracy that we have in America, but
okay, you want that all day long. You can't do
anything to change the way other people govern
themselves, especially when you've gotten to
the point where, like, take any of the Middle
Eastern countries, for example. Some of these
people are worth trillions of dollars. These
royal families have been running it forever.
They have insane amounts of oil money. Good luck.
Good luck getting them out of there. Good luck
saying we should just vote and have a president
and you don't have any power anymore. How are
you going to pull that off? Especially if things
are going well for the people that live there.
I have a friend who moved to Dubai. And he's
an American. And he moved back to America recently.
But he was over there and he said, dude, you
could leave a Rolex on the street and people
would pick it up and bring it to the police.
Like, it's so safe. He's like, there's no crime.
And he's black. And he's like, I worry when I
go out in America, I'm going to get shot. I'm
worried I'm going to go to a club and someone's
going to start beefing and shooting up the place
and I'm going to get hit. He goes, I don't think
about that at all over here. There's none of
that. He goes, it's safer. Is it fucked up? that,
you know, it's run by a king? I guess. Is it
that much different than a president? I mean,
in a way, like, it's a leader, right? You've
got more checks and balances over here. You've
got Congress. You've got all this shit going
on with the Supreme Court. You have all these
different human beings that also have a say and
can block things. But at the end of the day,
we're still under this bizarre alpha male chimpanzee
structure that has existed from the time that
we were 150 people in a fucking tribe. Right.
So it's still one guy running things. It's just
running things their way. And if you are a citizen
in Dubai. Pretty fucking good, right? Well, your
point about the UAE is really interesting because
not only is on the practical level of safety
and other things, but also they don't have the
Islamism problem that we have in Britain. And
increasingly, you guys are starting to see here.
Because they recognize that it's a problem and
they deal with it. So I don't know if you saw
this news story. The UAE no longer gives sponsorships
to their students to go to the UK because they're
worried their kids are going to get radicalized
by Islamists in Britain. Which is. Fucking wild.
Yeah. That is fucking wild. And you, I mean,
you were messaging me about this story with the
Mamdani situation, right, yesterday. Yes. You
now have this problem in America. Yeah. Yes.
You have the Islamism problem here, where people
who are supporters of ISIS are thrown, but I
mean, your media is pretending it's not happening,
but it's fucking happening. Well, it happened
in Austin. Right. Yeah. I mean, the guy who shot
up that bomb. Because this is a problem, Joe.
I'm going to send that article to Jamie. Jamie,
you could probably find it on CNN because it's
kind of hilarious. Incredible. This was actually
incredible. The New York Times title change thing.
Did the New York Times change their title? Yeah.
They did? I wonder why. All austere scholars.
I'm going to send you the CNN one first. The
CNN one is really wild. They had like fuses of.
Things with smoke or something, they change it
to bombs or something. Yeah, fucking duh. I'm
sending you this one because the CNN one is,
believe it or not, more preposterous. The CNN
one is so kooky. You see their headline and you're
like, what kind of story are you painting here?
This is such a crazy way to frame a guy showed
up with bombs and was hurling them at people.
They made it sound like the exact opposite of
what actually happened. Well, it sounded like
it was just a regular day. Just a regular day
for this fella, and then things just went a little
sideways somewhere along the line. Listen, we've
all got hobbies, man. You know what I mean? You
like working out. He has nail bumps. Come on.
Did you get it, Jamie? It's not coming through?
No, look. It's not loading there. Oh, interesting.
But let me see if they took it down. I guess
they would have. You probably have an old link.
Okay, that's the New York Times one I sent you.
No, that's the one I just clicked on. Let me
check the original one. Nothing to see here.
Interesting. They probably deleted it. Okay,
here, I found it. I found it. Two Pennsylvania
teenagers crossed into New York City Saturday
morning for what could have been a normal day,
enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather.
But in less than an hour, their lives would drastically
change as the pair would be arrested for throwing
homemade bombs. That is CNN's tweet. I'm going
to send you a screenshot because I do believe
they have taken it down. It's brilliant. Yep.
Nothing to see here yet. Yeah, they took it down.
That's not a headline, though. No, no, no. I'm
going to send you the actual tweet because they
did take it down because it's so fucking ridiculous.
But the internet never forgets. I'm sending it
to you here. Thank God I saved it. It took a
screenshot. Because I'm like, this is such a
crazy way to frame two guys wanting to do a terror
attack. Yeah. But it's not an accident, Joe.
It's not crazy. You know it's not crazy. Look
how it's framed here. This is the original tweet.
Two Pennsylvania teenagers, just regular fellas
from PA, from Philly. Two Philly boys had a couple
of cheesesteaks and got on the train. Crossing
New York City Saturday morning for what could
have been a normal day, enjoying the city during
abnormally warm weather. Why the fuck would you
even say that? Could have been a normal day if
they weren't going there to commit terrorism.
Do you know what it reads like? It reads like
when I used to teach 13 -year -olds creative
writing. That's how they'd all start off. It
was like a normal day. I mean, I'd like to know
who wrote that. Who's the person who wrote that?
And I want to know, were you directed to write
it that way? Who approved it? Yeah. Who edited
it? Are you trying to downplay the possibility
of... First of all, now in New York, because
you have a guy who's an avowed whatever he is,
democratic socialist, some say communist, but
also Muslim. And then you have these Islamists
who are doing a terrorist attack. So are you
trying to soften that? Yeah, they are. So what
happened, just so people know, is there was a
protest outside Mamdani's mansion. Right. Right.
And then these two people turned up and threw
bombs at the protesters. Right. If you just read
that and no other stuff, you would have come
away with the conclusion that it was the protesters
who were the targets of the bombs. They were
the ones that threw the bombs. No one officially
said that that's what happened, but the way they
did the story and the headline, you would have
got that impression. And you're just going, well,
you were just on a team. You see this as a team
game, right? And you want to present your team
in the correct light. Oh, the new post. A post
regarding two individuals arrested for throwing
handmade bombs outside of New York City Mayor
Zohan Mandani's home failed to reflect the gravity
of the incident, thereby breaching the editorial
standards we require for all our reporting. It
has therefore been deleted. But see how skillful
this is, Joe. This is gaslighting again. They're
saying their mistake was... This guy's a donut
operator. Nah, you retards got called out for
trying to downplay actual terrorism, and now
you're backpedaling. Yep. Who's that second guy?
He's really smart. Didn't fail to reflect the
gravity of the situation. This guy named Constantine,
I think he's on that Trigonometry show, reflected
the gravity of the situation and failed to accurately
communicate who was responsible, who the intended
victims were, and where to... The blame for the
attempted terrorist attack lay. In other words,
you didn't accidentally downplay the seriousness
of it. You deliberately misrepresented what happened
to conceal the truth from the public. Well, that's
how AI would say it. I still write my own shit,
Joe. I know you do, but I like the donut operator
guy. I know. He's more your cup of tea. That's
how I like to talk. That is what happened, though,
right? That is what happened, but that's what's
really scary about this. world we're living in
now. right now because we're so ideologically
captured, both right and left. Everyone in this
country looks at this administration as an existential
threat to democracy itself and our way of life
and fill in the blank whatever marginalized groups
are all going to be round up and put in internment
camps. This is the narrative that the most radical
of the left have about the sky is falling because
Trump's in office. But it's also as well what
people on the left don't want to acknowledge
is the dangers of Islamism. When they see people
do these kind of horrific terror attacks, when
they see, for instance, what happened in the
London Bridge terror attacks in 2019 or what
happened in Manchester in the Ariana Grande concert
where Islamic terrorists bombed. a Ariana Grande
concert and the majority of the audience were
little girls, were young girls. And they say,
oh, this happened because, you know, they were
marginalized and they felt angry. And this is
what people do when you push them to one side
and they don't have a means in order to how to
express themselves. You're going, no, what this
is, is an ideology. It's an ideology which believes
that our civilization, our way of life. But also
they want to establish their form of radical
Islam across the globe. They want to create a
global Islamic caliphate and they will do whatever
it takes in order to achieve that goal. But people
in the West, they can't understand that because
it's so alien for how we see. This is how we
see things. We believe human life is precious.
We believe the most important thing is human
life. They don't. They believe the cause is more
important than your life. And we can't understand
that because we're raised in a world that is
fundamentally Christian, even though we might
not be. We still have Christian values. We had
a guest on the show, a wonderful historian called
Tom Holland, and he explained this to us, that
even if you're not Christian, even if you think
you were raised by atheist parents, you were
still raised with... christian values that's
the soup in which we live that's what the water
in which we swim so this way of life that these
people have this ideology is so alien to us that
we can't understand it but also we don't want
to understand it because if you Start to actually
investigate what these people believe, what their
ideology is. You realize that we are not all
the same and these people believe something very,
very different. And then we're going to have
a very uncomfortable conversation of how do you
tackle this? Because can you have Western liberal
democratic values and Islamism and people who
are Islamists in the same society? And the answer
is you can't. And I think it's really important,
your point, the difference between Islamists
and Muslims. Yes. The Muslims are these Gulf
state people. Muslims are these people in Dubai
and Saudi Arabia. Islamists are the ones that
want the caliphate. Yeah. Right. But then you
have the crazy Christians. And that thing that
I sent you, the Yahoo thing that we talked about
yesterday with Schellenberger, the Yahoo thing
is nuts. Military leaders. So this comes from
one of the non -commissioned officers who went
to a briefing. He goes to a briefing and they
inform him that you shouldn't be scared because
this is all because President Trump is anointed
by Jesus. And this is to bring about Armageddon
so that Jesus returns to Earth. This isn't a
fucking military briefing. One such note included
an anecdote from a non -commissioned officer
who reported that their commander had urged us
to tell our troops this war was all a part of
God's divine plan. And he specifically referenced
numerous citations out of the book of Revelations
referring to Armageddon and the imminent return
of Jesus Christ. This is fucking crazy. He said
this morning, our committee. This is an officer
who's talking about this. This morning, our commander
opened up the combat readiness status briefing
by urging us to not be afraid as to what was
happening with our combat operations in Iran.
He said President Trump has been anointed by
Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause
Armageddon and mark his return to Earth. He said
he had a big grin on his face when he said all
this, which made his message seem even more crazy.
Well, that's reassuring. Well, this is the scary
arm of the right. This is the scariest arm of
the right. The people that think that this is
one of the main reasons the Micah could be people.
I think this is the main reason to protect Israel.
It's a part of God's plan. You know, Israel is
where Jesus is going to return. He's going to
return to Jerusalem. Yikes. Yeah, I've never
really understood that. Like, I think you can
argue for, you can be pro -Israel for pragmatic
reasons. religious stuff is a little bit weird
to me well this but the problem is you've got
fanatics right like the islamists but you've
also got these christian hard right christian
nationalists that really believe that this is
a part of biblical prophecy and that they this
is book of revelations it's about to go down
and they they want it to go down this is terrifying
this is really interesting for us because In
the UK, Christianity has been dig fanged to the
point where there's a trans flag on practically
every church. So this idea of having these hardcore
right wing fundamentalist Christians, we just
don't experience that. We don't have that really.
Yeah. It's like, can't everybody live in the
middle? Why do you have to go all the way over
to we got to start Armageddon? Jesus is going
to come back on a white horse. You ever read
the book of Revelations? Yeah, I got really into
it. The book of Revelations is kooky. They really
believe that Jesus is going to return on a horse.
Why a horse? A white horse. That's a bit racist.
A little bit. I mean, I don't get it. Can we
have a diverse horse at least for Armageddon?
Why not a horse of color, Joe? You want me to
read you the passage? Because I saved it. Because
it's kind of kooky. Because it's one of those
things where you just go, well, who fucking believes
this? Is this really what you think is going
to go down because someone wrote it down on paper?
2 ,000 years ago in ancient Hebrew. It says,
heaven opens and Christ appears on a white horse
to judge and wage war, called faithful and true
with eyes like fire, many crowns, and the name
King of King and Lord of Lords. Just imagine
it's 2026 and you're like, that's the blueprint,
boys. But this is just as scary, and especially
for people that are Muslims, right? Or anybody
who lives in the Middle East. This is more important
than human life. This is more important than
international law. This is like in the eyes of
the crazy on the right. This is the problem.
So it's like it's not it's not like one side.
It's like all good over here. We have to fight
against the Islamists. We've got some kooks over
here, too. If that guy is for real and that guy
is in a position of power and he's really having
combat readiness meetings where he's telling
people that we have to bomb and start Armageddon
so Jesus can come back on a white horse, fucking
yo. Like that's kooky. The thing that is probably
reassuring somewhat is I don't – President Trump
doesn't strike me as one of those people. He's
not. He's not, right? Whereas the leader of Iran
is. Right, but people in the military I think
are as well. Yeah and people in high positions
in the military I think maybe as well if this
guy can give that kind of a meeting And that
kind of a speech at a meeting that that's a little
terrifying and if I was over there I'd be freaking
the fuck out if I'd be like this is your plan
I'm cannon fodder so that Jesus can come back.
My body's going to be a part of the fucking signal
fire. Let's be honest, though. It wouldn't be
that much of a plot twist for 2026, would it?
Right. It would be the final, you know, episode
10, Game of Thrones, season six. Yes. I mean,
it is getting fucking wild. And that's when the
aliens come. Maybe that's what they're doing.
You know, the whole thing is it's. there's not
a sane person on either side. The whole thing
is nuts. And it's like, it doesn't make sense
to anybody. And that's what scares the shit out
of me. Yeah, it's... The thing that scares me
is what Constantine has addressed is I don't
get worried unless I can't see a way out or the
way that this is resolved. And like you said,
the coin is in the air. And I'm slightly of more
of a more pessimistic nature. He's more of an
optimist. But as I look at it and I think to
myself, this could go so wrong, so badly wrong,
that it could make Iraq look like an absolute
picnic in comparison. Yeah. Well, especially
if terrorist attacks start popping off over in
America, like major ones, you know, and that.
That could be bad for everything. That could
be bad for freedom of speech. That could be bad
for rights. That could be bad for incorporation
of digital ID. That would be a good way to push
that through. There's a lot of stuff that would
go through that would radically change, just
like the Patriot Act did. Patriot Act radically
changed the freedoms that we have in America
and the overreach that the government has allowed.
You're so right, but we only just started being
allowed to take water back on the fucking planes,
right? Right. Maybe this is what it's all about.
You can't take water on a plane anymore. Didn't
they decide to let people keep their sneakers
on? Wasn't that going on for a while? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Can't have that. We have one fucking shoe
bomber. That Richard asshole, that one guy? One
guy. And there was once, do you remember you
weren't allowed to bring scissors on? Like the
small scissors? I can't remember the comedian
who said this, but he went, you know what? If
you take over an entire plane armed with nothing
but water and some small scissors, you deserve
the plane. Well, here's the thing. Like you can
bring skateboards, but you can't bring a pool
cue. So it doesn't make any sense. I could fuck
you up with a skateboard. I could fuck a lot
of people up with a skateboard. Think about what
kind of damage you could do with that big, heavy
-ass thing. Yeah, it's just... And the worry
is, when it comes to all of this, is you look
at these guys and you go, do you have a vision
for what is actually going to happen? But I do
think they do, though. I do think they have a
vision. What I want to find out is what that
vision is. I hope you're right, but I don't think
you are. You don't think I am? I think it's very
possible that they thought this would be over
much quicker. They thought taking out the – just
look at the success that they had in the initial
bombing of Iran, right? The initial bombing,
they supposedly decapitated their ability to
make nuclear bombs or at least stopped it for
a long time. And there was a lot of concessions
that the Iranians were willing to submit to that
they never submitted to under Obama or anybody
else. And that wasn't enough. Right. So the problem
is when you're like we're talking about Desert
Storm, you get away with something that works
really well. You're like, we know what we're
doing. And then you bite off more than you could
chew. Yeah. And especially once you've done Venezuela,
you feel like you're kind of you're on a roll.
Right. Yeah. I see your point. I see your point.
I do think, though, I mean, from what I read,
both Kushner and Witkoff both said that the Iranians
were not playing ball, actually. Okay. Which
is why they went in. So obviously, if you think
about it, given how long it takes for U .S. assets
to get to the region, this decision would have
been made weeks ago at the very least. Right.
And that's because from what I understand, the
negotiators like Iran isn't actually playing
ball. What they're doing is they're claiming
publicly that they're willing to make concessions.
But when we sit down with them, that's not what's
happening because all they're doing is stalling
for time. That makes more sense. And so if you
were worried that someone was in the middle of
actually getting their uranium, up to a point
where you enrich it to nuclear bomb levels. Right.
But I think a lot of people misunderstand that
in the sense that like, I think it's based on
my understanding, it's totally false to claim
that they were like about to develop a nuclear.
They were not. Well, you've seen the compilation.
Of Netanyahu saying Iran is two weeks away from
developing a nuclear bomb all the way back to
the 80s. Yeah. Have you seen that compilation?
I haven't. No. It's wonderful. Right. See if
you can find it, Jamie. Because it's so kooky.
I mean, he's been talking about this for fucking
ever. They're that close. They're two weeks away.
They're two weeks away. They're two weeks away.
And, you know, maybe they are, you know, and
maybe Stuxnet. put a dent in that, right? They
used that virus program to kill all the computer
programs that were running their nuclear program
over there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know that
they were ever like two weeks from having a...
a payload that was ready to be delivered to wherever
but they are they were enriching uranium to levels
that you only enrich if you want nuclear weapons
right and so i guess the question for trump is
like do i allow this to continue and do i have
to wait until they've got the bomb on a launcher
waiting to to go there it is yeah let's hear
it you've probably heard this line before iran
has never given up its quest for nuclear weapons
and the missiles to deliver them That's because
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has
been saying this for more than 30 years, claiming
Iran is close to having... Nuclear weapons. Nuclear
weapons. Nuclear weapons. Atomic bombs. In 1992,
as a member of parliament, Netanyahu addresses
the Knesset. He says, within three to five years,
we can assume that Iran will become autonomous
in its ability to develop and produce a nuclear
bomb. Three years later, in his book Fighting
Terrorism, he repeats the same time frame, three
to five years. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fast
forward to 2002. Netanyahu testifies before a
U .S. congressional committee, actively calling
for the invasion of Iraq. Are there any other
nations that you would recommend that the United
States launch preemptive attacks upon at this
point? The two nations that are vying, competing
with each other, who will be the first to achieve
nuclear weapons is Iraq and Iran. The invasion
happens months later. Keep going on this. Are
found in Iran. This is a fragment of a 2009 U
.S. State Department cable released by WikiLeaks.
Netanyahu tells members of Congress that Iran
is one or two years away from being capable of
developing nuclear weapons. It's 2012, and Netanyahu
is holding up his infamous cartoon bomb at the
UN General Assembly. By next spring, at most
by next summer, at current enrichment rates,
they will have finished the medium enrichment
and move on to the final stage. From there, it's
only a few months, possibly a few weeks, before
they get enough enriched uranium for the first
bomb. And now, 33 years after Netanyahu's first
so -called imminent warning, Israel attacks Iran.
If not stopped, Iran could produce a nuclear
weapon in a very short time. It could be a year,
it could be within a few months, less than a
year. That's despite the U .S. Director of National
Intelligence saying Iran isn't building a nuclear
weapon months earlier. Iran, lie. But for Netanyahu,
the slogan has been the same for decades. Like
I said, big time. Dmitry Medvedenko, Al Jazeera.
We get it. Yeah, so, but here's the thing. Maybe
he's kind of right, but they haven't ever done
it. Right. They certainly are enriching uranium
to a point where it's more than you need for
power. Right. So why are they doing that? Right.
Right. And so I guess for Trump, the calculation
is like, I'm in my last term. I might as well,
you know, roll the dice, go and deal with it
now. Could end very badly, as we've discussed.
Yeah. There is a way that it ends well. We will
see what happens. I just honestly don't think
anyone knows how it's going to go. I don't think
anyone knows. How can you? There's so many moving
parts. It's like if I ask you who's, you know,
Dana White just announced the UFC card for the
White House, right? Yeah. Who's going to win,
Justin Gaethje, Oyle Tapora? You are not going
to say, this is what's going to happen. Right.
You don't know. Because nobody knows. Yeah. Right.
And this is like 100 times more complicated than
that. Right. Yeah. Yeah, at least. At least.
Yeah. Probably several thousand times more. So
it's a gamble. And you've got to. I mean, you've
got to think if this goes badly, this is legacy
defining for all involved, for all involved.
This will, whatever you've done up to that point,
it's like Blair and Bush. Tony Blair, people
forget in our country, Tony Blair was immensely
popular. And then Iraq happened. And if you mention
Tony Blair now, the only thing anyone remembers
is Iraq. So for context, Tony Blair was one of
the, Tony Blair is a hero in Kosovo because he
effectively stopped... A large part of the reason
the war in Kosovo ended was Tony Blair. I think
there was something... I saw a story that kids
were... People were naming their kids Tony Blair.
They regret it now. He was one of the central
people in the Northern Ireland peace deal, bringing
peace to Northern Ireland. For people of our
age who grew up in the UK, we never thought we'd
see peace in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland
was a glorified civil war, and it had been for
however long, right the way from the 60s, the
70s, the 80s. And he was one of those people
instrumental in bringing peace to Northern Ireland.
It was a miracle. It was a total miracle that
that happened, the Good Friday Agreement, and
it was other people as well, like Mo Mullen,
etc. So you look at Blair, he was on a roll.
He must have thought to himself, everything I
do turns to gold here. I have achieved peace
in Kosovo, peace in Northern Ireland. Why can't
I invade Iraq and Afghanistan and install democracies
and bring peace to the Middle East? I've done
it to Northern Ireland. No one ever thought that
could happen. So this will – whichever way it
goes, I think it will be defining for the people
involved. If it goes well, this is like the biggest
Hail Mary touchdown in history in some ways.
If it goes badly, that will define this. Certainly
from an outside perspective, that's what I see.
It's going to define the presidency. I mean I
don't know how you can argue with that really.
No, no. know how you can argue with it either.
But that's what's so interesting about people
that absolutely know how it's going to play out.
You know, you don't. And then there's also the
New York Times thing. Did they change that, Jamie?
Or did they take it down? I just sent it to you.
So what does it say? So does New York Times still
have it up? Wow. Crowd gathered on Monday. They
didn't say which Monday. It was a Monday. It
was just six fucking years ago. And then again,
this is the problem where everything is polarized
and politicized. Well, I think your point about
people wanting to believe something is so true.
Whenever anything like this happens, you instantly
get these camps, right? You've got the anti -war
camp. You've got the pro -war camp. You've got
this camp. You've got the anti -Israel camp.
You've got the pro -Israel camp. And everyone
like... Information is no longer about information.
It's just fodder for your information war that
you're fighting. Exactly. And then on top of
that, and look, this is a kind of, I'm cutting
my own balls off here because I make good money
from posts and stuff on X, right? But the monetization
of content has made things different. And we
can all see it in our feed, right? You've seen
this. I mean, you must see it. So now you have
people who are basically, I go on Twitter on
X to express my opinion. And to engage in discussion
with people who have a different opinion. That's
what I do, right? But there are now lots and
lots of people who go to work. They go to X to
work. Right. And that's what they're doing. Now,
the incentive structure of that is not conducive
to a healthy debate. Right. At all. What you've
got now is people going, okay, a thing has happened.
What is my tech? Venezuela got invited. It was
Israel's fault. Okay, here's some content about
that. Mm -hmm. And it's no longer authentic communication,
unfortunately. And that's just actual people
doing it. Right. Yeah. And then you've got AI
on top of that. Yeah. And then you've got foreign
bot farms. Yeah. And foreign governments trying
to influence this shit. There's this one currently
popular page that I follow that's clearly AI.
I mean, you could just read it and tell that
it's AI. And it gets immense amounts of engagement.
Heavily right wing, like really well written,
you know. funny, you know, but not human. Not
funny, real funny, but funny technically funny.
You know what I'm saying? Insults that are technically
funny, but for whatever reason you don't digest
it. It's like Olestra. Remember that stuff? It
just went right through you like diarrhea. That's
what it's like. It's got no soul. There's no
soul to it. That's just one. I mean, how many
of them exist and how many state actors are running
bot farms? Yeah. So we don't know what the fuck
is going on at any given time. But it's the incentives
that have become perverted because it's no longer,
like Constance said, about expressing opinion
or wanting to get involved in dialogue or debate.
What you've got now is people, like you said,
earning their livings. So if you need to pay
your mortgage at the end of the month or you
need to pay a team or you have a company, you're
not going to put out a nuanced take. Why would
you? It's going to get minimal engagement. You
are going to put out something that is going
to trigger, that is going to be incendiary, that
is going to drive engagement. that is going to
get people upset or angry and agree or agree
with you and therefore more likely to share.
So that's the content you're going to put out
because that's the content that's going to make
you the most dope. 100%. And then you have people
that are pushing for this idea that no one should
be able to post online unless you're using your
real name and you show some sort of an ID. which
is also kind of crazy. Yeah. There's downsides
to that for sure. But I also do understand why
they're saying it. I understand it too. I just
think it's a slippery slope that stops all whistleblowers.
And imagine you are a regime critic in Iran.
Yeah. And you're trying to post news from Iran
under, you know, there's definitely, but, you
know, I think Jordan Peterson was actually one
of the first people that suggested this thing.
And I understand why, because. The way it's like
the windscreen, the windshield effect in your
car, the way you and I behave face to face is
not the way people will behave when they're sitting
in their truck and someone cut them up in traffic.
Yeah. And social media is the we cut each other
up in traffic and then sit there. Fuck you, buddy.
From like behind our screen. Yeah. That's what
it is. Yeah. Right. So I understand it. But times
a million. Times a million. Right. And then you've
got foreign bots and all that shit. And then.
Taking away people's right to anonymity online
like fuck me that you know the second third fourth
all the consequences of that Yeah, I'm pretty
fucking crazy as well. I found another picture
of that This episode is brought to you by Rho
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it says was yesterday. So I don't know that it
was not real. So this is from which website?
I typed it into Perplexity, and I'm clicking
around on pictures to find out where they're
coming from one by one. So is it possible that
the New York Times put the wrong footage, but
it was a similar kind of protest in the same
spot? Yeah, that's my understanding. This is
a similar photo. That makes more sense. This
is an AP source on this photo. Okay, so all the
New York Times did is get the wrong photo of
a bunch of people gathering. I'll note this one,
which is at night, so it is definitely a different
photo. January mm -hmm this one is yeah but this
is not the same photo that we looked at before
right so the other one though this one is from
a day ago okay that's similar well that's very
different right there that's small well but it's
the same angle right so what they did was just
use the wrong footage but a similar sort of a
protest so it's just an unfortunate error not
Like reframing the narrative with propaganda.
That I'm not sure because even these comments
is like AI and it's fake photo. But that's why
I was trying to find other sources of it. What
does Grok have to say? I mean, I used our perplexity.
Right. But I mean, on the post, usually if someone
posts something on, they say, Grok, is this true?
Is this footage legit? Oh, that's it. Okay, it's
on Instagram. I could find it on Twitter. And
so perplexity says that there is a legitimate
size protest that's like that. Yeah, I just asked
if crowds gathered there yesterday. It says multiple
reports indicate that thousands of people gathered
in the central square in Tehran yesterday. Show
support and pledge allegiance to the new supreme
leader. How do you say his name? Mojtaba. Mojtaba
Khomeini. Mojtaba. He's the son of the guy they
killed. How many people have they killed so far?
Like the leaders? I don't know, but it's probably
up to the low hundreds, I would imagine. Because
they had one guy last week that was the new guy
and they whacked him almost immediately. I didn't
tweet this, but when this guy was appointed,
I wanted to say like congratulations to him and
condolences to his family. I was like, this is
a bit full on. Yeah. The problem is you're right.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think he's going to
last very long. Because he seems pretty hardline
as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, they killed his
dad. Yeah. That doesn't tend to de -radicalize
you very much. You know, that's going to piss
you off. So Jamie put in, did the New York Times
use an old photo for this event? Evidence so
far suggests the New York Times used a recent
photo for this week's gathering, not an old archive
image, though many commenters have accused the
opposite. Interesting. Instagram's own post of
the square crowd, multiple Iranian users claim
the image is fake or AI or from 2020, and several
assert that it's not representative of real public
sentiment. However, another Facebook thread referencing
the same image states that it was taken by New
York Times photographer Arash. Kamushi on Monday,
March 9th, 2026, which matches the article date
and captions used by other outlets showing the
same scene. This is the fog of confusion that
exists on social media. Yep. Isn't it worrying
that we can no longer tell what's real? We're
already at that point. And when you think of
where we were last year, where you could really
tell pretty much what was AI and what wasn't.
Now we're in the murky waters of is this, isn't
it? It's going to come to a point pretty soon
where everything is going to look like real life.
Well, as soon as AI can't detect it, that's when
we're fucked, right? And then so I talked to
Marc Andreessen about this, and his recommendation
was that everything should be on the blockchain.
So you're going to be able to tell whether or
not footage has been altered. what the chain
of custody of this image has been, where it started.
I mean, it's terrifying, isn't it? Oh, it is,
yeah. Because you're going to think, is that
going to be the end of journalism? Really? Right.
Is that going to be almost... I think we're talking
about this, and this is really, really important,
but what's coming with AI is even more important.
Even the people you talk to in the field have
no idea what's going to be the second, third,
fourth order consequence. Right. I know. I mean,
there's so much to be excited about with AI.
I think it blinds a lot of people to the like
not exciting parts of it. Well, ultimately, if
you just looked at where, what is it ultimately
going to lead to? It's going to lead to something
that's way smarter than us. And why would it
listen to us anymore? Well, I'm sure you've seen
the stuff about how we will blackmail. So by
definition, that means it has a survival instinct.
And if it has a survival instinct, by definition,
it means there is a priority that it has, which
is above humans. By definition, that's what a
survival instinct means. It means you care more
about yourself than you do about anyone else.
So if AI has a survival instinct. We are not
going to be its number one priority. Not only
that, it doesn't seem to differentiate between
using nuclear weapons or other weapons. And when
they've done these war game simulations with
AI, they prefer to use nuclear weapons. Well,
they're more effective, right? This is the thing.
They're not scared of this idea like, oh, my
God, you're just going to dust a city. They're
like, oh, that's the way to do it. There's no
numbers on the chart, right? Yeah. your goal
accomplished. How does AI accomplish its goal
with whatever the best tool available is? Oh,
that's this bomb. Yeah. It's efficient. Yeah.
And then a mutual friend of ours, Melissa Chen,
was telling me that one of the Chinese robotics
companies is called Skynet. Oh, God. And they
released a robot called the T900. And I'm like,
who says the CCP don't have a sense of humor?
That's why it's actually true. Yeah. Well, you've
seen the robots that they have now that will
work in your home and like fold your Sheets and
make your bed and stuff and do it Remarkably
human like there's a video that was released
yesterday again. I don't know if it's real but
it looks real It looks like an actual robot that's
making your bed. And they've gotten the dexterity
to the point where you could imagine things like
this happening. And I think this is one of the
reasons why Elon is shifting his focus away from
some Tesla models so that they can reset up one
of their factories to make these Optimus robots,
that you're going to have them as home companions.
And they're going to be able to do kitchen work
for you and maybe even cook. My acupuncturist,
she's Chinese. She went back to China. And she
was saying she stayed at the hotel and like most
of the services there is provided by robots.
So like she went to a room, ordered some food,
three minutes, knock, knock. fucking robot delivering
the food. An actual humanoid looking robot? No,
I don't think so. Because there's a restaurant
out here that you go to and when you order drinks,
it comes by in a little robot trolley. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. We have that in the UK as well. You
have to say, accept, take your tea. Yeah, it's
kind of cool. It's fun. Yeah. Here it is. It's
not called Skynet, I don't believe. Oh, sorry.
Then that was wrong. They did name it after the
Twitter, I think. But I can't tell what this
is. T -800. T -800. The T -900 is in development.
Look what it looks like now. They're making a
weird movie. Wow. That looks fake. The robot
itself looks fake. The movement doesn't look...
Well, it's in that... First of all, I don't like
how it's lit. I don't like how this room is lit.
I think this is for a film. Yeah. That's a bullshit
-ass pancake. Joe's like, this is my area of
expertise. There's a lot of videos of it that
say it's real. I like how the bag went flying
like it's on a rail. It's not even stationary
because you don't want to really see how hard
it can get. Unlock agility. Wow. Right now? This
might be bullshit. It's got the Iron Man thing
in the center of its chest. That's pretty dope.
Hmm. I would just say Engine AI makes it just
right away sound like it's an AI content company,
not a robot company. Well, that video looked
very AI -like. There's something about it. You
know, your brain recognizes miniature cars. You
ever see a miniature car? You know how they have
those really well -done miniature cars that people
like to collect? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like
a tiny Porsche. But your brain knows. Like, your
brain looks at it and goes, there's something
wrong here. This is not real. Yeah. That's how
I felt looking at that robot. Like, my brain
was like, mm -mm. That's not a real thing throwing
kicks. Yeah. But it's going to come to a point
where it's like, is that real? Oh, yeah. I mean,
it's probably... ChatGPT -5 can already probably
do it better than that. You know, we don't know
what the newest iterations of these things are,
and they're improving radically. all the time.
I just don't believe it. The beginning of this
video says there's no CGI. I don't know why we
have to believe that. Bro, this looks fake to
me. This looks fake to me. That does not look
real. There's articles all over saying it's real,
but it doesn't look real at all. Yeah, but I
mean, why wouldn't you have it more well lit?
Like, if I was going to do something like this,
I would have spotlights on it and people next
to it so I could examine their shadows. This
is weird. Yeah, this is like a... Looks fake.
Why would you have, like... Why is the light
coming through the corner of the window like
that? Also, why would you make a robot that does,
like, martial arts? Just shoot people, bro. Right.
Yeah, why would you throw that bullshit kick
too? That's a 360 roundhouse kick that almost
never lands. It's really hard to pull off. Yeah,
but you're saying that as a human. Maybe as an
AI you land it every time. No, it's slow. But
surely if you're a robot, you just grab their
neck with your metal claw and crush it. Just
run after them and headbutt them and knock them
unconscious. Your head's made out of metal. The
whole thing is crazy. Why would you be throwing
wheel kicks? Like, you know, if you like went
over UFC fights and say, like, what's the most
effective techniques that work most of the time?
Why would you program in 360 roundhouse kicks?
That fucking never comes up. Yeah. I mean, it
does look cool, though. Yeah. But I can think
of one fight. Yair Rodriguez pulled it off on
BJ Penn. But it was BJ Penn towards the latter
end of his career. Yair Rodriguez in his peak.
And Yair is exceptionally talented. He's kind
of a freak with his kicks. But it's almost like
he was showing off. He already had BJ really
hurt. And he just threw a 360 roundhouse kick
and hit him in the face. It was crazy. But this
thing is doing that just to show you it does
martial arts. Why would you need martial arts?
You should have like a thousand bullets on you.
Just gun everybody down with your fingertips.
Robocop. Yeah, why wouldn't you turn like Iron
Man does? Shoot fire out of your palms. The future
is bright, Joe. Well, we're also kind of being
bullshitted, I think. I mean, is there a way
to analyze that video? This rabbit hole is strange.
This is a website that they've made that says
you can buy it. When you click on buy now, it
takes you somewhere else, and I think that that's
the first signal. And it steals your IP address.
Yeah, that's where I'm like, I'm not clicking
it again. Gets all your credit card information.
But it's a fully made website. They have a team.
They've got a CEO. They've got other things.
It just doesn't seem. This all looks fake to
me, like it's for a movie. Right. Maybe it is.
Maybe this is like a setup for a movie we're
being fucked with. Right. Well, we're giving
them a lot of free advice. For sure. That's okay.
I'm just even Googling it. There's lots of articles
about it. People are talking about it like it's
real and discussing it like it's real. No one
that I've even seen is like, this is obviously
fake. This is obviously AI. I like how it's got
the Cylon eyes. Yeah. By your command. Yeah.
We've got other products here for sale. Whoa,
just click on that? I don't know what the fuck
this is. Bro, that's the guy from Monsters, Inc.
The one big eyeball? It's a really well -made
website. It looks nice. Interesting. They did
some good, fun work, but it just seems like a
fun project someone made. Stay tuned for this
one. You can't buy this yet. What about the dog?
What about the guy who just got legs? That one's
weird. What's that? It's like, I don't want him
touching me. Just run around my house and do
some stuff. Yeah. Really expandable bipedal robot
that supports user custom, blah, blah, blah.
Interesting. Watch this is what I have purchased
now. You can already see the website at the bottom.
That doesn't look, it's 3 .cn, so it's a China
website. Mm -hmm. Not this blank. It's loading.
Okay. There we go. It's in Chinese. See, it takes
somewhere else. Now it's like, what is that?
It's definitely not a buy now. Maybe that red
thing is. No, this is like, this is, I think.
Register your interest, maybe? Like a back -end
website. Interesting. They just didn't click
the right link here because it opened up a different...
I don't think this is right. But this is like...
Interesting. Whatever this is, is very... They
did it well. Interesting. That is... Even if
it's a college kid making a project, good job.
Well, I take full responsibility for that one.
I know, it's fine. I mean... I take responsibility.
That was me. Don't blame me. That was me. It
was a Forbes article. Anybody can make a Forbes
article. That's kind of another... What? Yeah.
Not anybody, but we can make Forbes articles
that say all sorts of stuff. It's not coming
from Forbes editorial team, per se. But you could
publish on Forbes? I don't want to speak out
of turn specifically, but I've seen there's so
many reviews for video games that pop up every
single day. You can be a contributor, I believe,
is what it would be. Oh, and maybe they have
a bad editorial team, and you can sneak this
through? Sure. And just pretend that there really
is. That would be a great prank to pull. Yeah.
It's a great hoax. Did you follow the Malt Book
thing? No. I mean, did you follow Malt Book?
Yeah, I just actually saw that. I think Meta
just bought it today. Meta just bought it today.
I thought it was fake. Was that fake as well?
No, I don't know why they would have bought it.
How weird is it we have to worry about everything
being fake now? Francis just hears spreading
fake news the whole podcast. I was just very
cynical about it because the idea of it sounds
right, but that actual bots are making a social
network to do stuff and talk about us and whatever
kind of sounds... too far into the sci -fi realm.
So this is the social network for AI agents.
I have heard about this. They complain about
humans. Is that right? Yeah. These fuckers are...
Yeah. Yeah, and apparently they created their
own language and they talked amongst themselves
so that we wouldn't be able to access and see
what they were talking about. Yeah, that's really
fun. Did you see when they got all the AI agents
to talk to each other and they started using
Sanskrit? No. Yeah. They got these different
large language models to communicate with each
other and they eventually broke out into Sanskrit.
Wow. Maybe these guys in Iran are right. Like
maybe this is the apocalypse. Maybe this is how
it comes about. Maybe we're looking at each other
and we're going to bring about these motherfuckers.
then that's what's really going to be the end
of civilization. Yeah, and places like Iran is
the only place you're going to be able to hide
as a human because it's the one place that hasn't
adopted all this shit, right? Yeah, maybe Afghanistan
is the spot to go. Just live like a goat herder.
Yeah, we're going to be like Bin Laden, just
living in a cave. I mean, you're being very negative,
boys. There's another option. There's another
option. There's another option. What's the other
option? We all become Amish. Oh, OK. But then
we're run by AI. We're Amish and we live in our
little communities, but we have no say on how
the world works. So this is the real fear is
that we're no longer the apex intelligence of
the planet. And that seems to already be the
case. Yeah. This is for the Forbes thing I was
talking about. The article we had I don't think
was specifically this, but I've seen many articles
like this where people can submit. One -off original
articles to the opinion section, particularly
for topics related to business tech or policy
by emailing pitches to ideas at Forbes .com.
So, yeah, like so if you're a person on the other
end that's just looking for clicks. Like, that
would be a good one. You see it, like, oh, this
is a really well -written article. Let's go to
the website. Website looks legit. Oh, they're
throwing wheel kicks. I'm in. Yeah. I mean. Motherfuckers.
But, again, the point being made again is, like,
it's such a terrifying world where you don't
know if what you're seeing is true. You don't
know if what you're reading is accurate. Right.
To the point where you can't help, if that's
the case, the world you live in continually feeding
things that may or may not be true or altered
or doctored. Wouldn't that just put you in a
state of paranoia after a while? A hundred percent.
Now imagine if you are in the Middle East and
you bust out your cell phone because a fiery
cloud emerges and Jesus is on a white horse and
you film it and you post it online. Who's going
to believe it? Right. jesus returning if he returned
now no one would buy it like we're we're getting
into this like like imagine jesus is a real person
or a real god who's the son of god is going to
come back he really is it's real it's all real
it's happening at the same time where you have
no idea what's real and it all converges instantaneously
with the rise of sentient artificial general
super intelligence that has complete autonomy
It's running all the resources, everything, anything
that's attached to a computer, which is basically
everything. All of our power, you know, everything.
Fill in the blank. Everything's run by computers.
And now AI has control of everything and no longer
wants to listen to human beings. And Jesus returns.
Yeah. I mean, that might be what everybody's
talking about when they're talking about Armageddon,
when they're talking about the end of civilization.
It might be. this new thing that we're creating.
Well, if that happens, I'll be rooting for Jesus
to return. Please, Jesus. I'm not sure I believe
in you, but please come back. Yeah, I'm not sure
either. But this is, I mean, maybe a historical
Jesus existed at one point in time, and maybe
what they're talking about is like their version.
of the cycles of humanity that other religions
have talked about, is that especially when you
deal with technology and power and civilization,
that things get to a point where they always
go sideways, and then there's dark times, and
then society. Like the yugas. What are the yugas?
The yugas are the cycles of civilization that...
I don't want to fuck this up, so let's define
the... We're in the middle of Kali Yuga, which
is the age of confusion. Feels like it. Yeah.
I mean, it's odd how accurate these cycles are
when you look at historical events and what things
were like X amount of thousands of years ago.
Hindu cosmology. Yes. Vast cosmic ages in Hindu
cosmology describe recurring cycles in the moral
and spiritual state of the world. So the four
yugas are Satya Yuga, the first and most righteous
age, often called the golden age, marked by truth,
virtue, and maximum dharma. which is moral order.
Treta Yuga, the second age. Dharma declined somewhat.
Virtue still predominates, but imbalance begins.
How do you say that word? Dwapara Yoga, the third
age, with further decline in righteousness and
an increase in conflict, suffering, and confusion.
And then Kali Yuga, the fourth and darkest age,
characterized by moral decay, ignorance, and
materialism, with Dharma at its weakness. Okay,
that's us. Yeah. Hindu cosmology treats these
yugas as repeating cycles of creation, growth,
decline, and destruction rather than one -time
historical periods. Yeah. Very interesting, right?
You know, it's even more noticeable for us coming
to America, I think, because, you know, we love
America, but one of the things that really stands
out is how materialistic people are and how much
money is, like, the number one thing for everything
now. Yeah. I find that really... It stands out
to me, the fact that – and I find it weird in
our game especially, like in media and podcasting
and whatever. Because the way we think about
what we do is we're trying to produce content
that's actually of value to people. But we also
meet a lot of people for whom it's like a business.
It's like selling widgets. It's the same. How
do you get – how do you maximize your returns
on your investment? And that to me is – it's
– It shows you that something is slightly off.
Yeah, it is. And you also get a lot of... You
get people that are making content just based
only on the perceived popularity of that content,
not whether or not they are really interested
in having these conversations. And you feel it
when you're talking to these people or when you're
listening to these people talk to each other,
rather. Yeah, the clickbait stuff, a lot of celebrity
stuff. You know, Bert Kreischer went on Shannon
Sharp's podcast, and he said they basically have
a list of controversial things they could talk
about and subjects they think are going to get
the most amount of traction. And those are the
questions that he asked. He just asked questions
off of a list. But from a business point of view,
if you take morality out of it, that's a smart
thing to do, Joe. Is it, though? Is it, though?
Because what's the most popular show? There's
this one. And why is this one the most popular?
Because I don't do that at all. Agreed, but you're
sort of an outlier in that. There's people who
make very, very, very good living interviewing
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JRE. Terms apply. I know, but I think in the
end you bite off your nose to spite your face
because I think that you lose a certain amount
of authenticity. There's a certain amount of
like a legitimate connection between you and
whatever you're talking about that it doesn't
get through to the people. Like if I talk to
someone, I'm only talking to them because I want
to. Then I have a lot of people on that are not
even remotely popular or famous. But I think
they wrote an interesting book or I think they're
involved in interesting research or I think they've
got a weird opinion on something and I want to
talk to them about it or they've had a strange
life or they were an undercover cop or whatever
it is. I'm just interested. And I think that
if you abandon that. and only focus on, ooh,
this person is famous, or this person's in the
news, or this is going to get a lot of views,
you don't care as much about the conversation
you're having, and the people know. So the person
listening and watching, they can feel it. No,
I agree with that, but I also think you could
probably get a lot of clicks by saying, I don't
know, Erica Kirk killed Charlie Kirk. You could
do that too, but you're also, you're playing
a weird game where you've got to continually
go deeper and deeper and deeper, and now Erica
Kirk's a man. You know what I'm saying? That's
probably next. Has that already happened? That's
probably already happened. Someone's probably
already floated that one out there. And you're
saying over time that you run out of, you run
out of road. You're playing the wrong game. You're
playing... You're playing a very similar game
to the game that like TMZ is playing or any of
these other Like things where you can get a lot
of traction you can get a lot of views, you know,
but no one thinks you're being authentic no one
like if you have a take on world events and we're
incredibly sorry for the loss of this person
like you don't really care and they know you
don't really care so they know there's no sincerity
they know you're not really connected to it and
so in this weird age that we're living in where
you're not sure what's real at the very least
you want the person who's talking to be talking
about something in an honest way right and connecting
with people in an honest way. Because that's
what we're missing. And that might be the only
thing we have left once this AI shit goes live.
It was probably not even gonna be podcast. It's
probably gonna be public speaking it's gonna
be you're gonna have to like talk to people in
groups and We're gonna all have to like work
ideas out together because I don't think you're
gonna be able to know when you're communicating
online What's real and what's not real? Yeah,
we're already in the fog where we haven't hit
the fucking full hailstorm of bullshit That's
coming our way. Yeah, and it I agree with you,
Joe. And I agree if you want something that is
sustainable, if you want something that is nourishing,
if you want to create content that people engage
with that is honest. But I think there's a lot
of people out there who are just looking at it
in a very cynical way and they're optimizing
it for clicks, attention, and monetary gain.
And if you want to create a business that can
make money and that doesn't require a lot of
lift, We all know what you can do. That's the
Eagle song, Dirty Laundry. Yeah. You know? They've
always been doing it. It's real? Jamie's still
on this. It doesn't do all the jumping and shit.
Thank you. It's from CES. I had to find a real.
Okay, that looks way more real. So the videos
we were watching were bullshit. So this went
viral a while ago. They had to come out and make
other videos. This is a different one. Oh, my
God. That's so iRobot. I know. Lined up military
style. I don't like that. There's a few different
companies in China that have gone viral for posting
videos that people in America think are fake.
And that's why I had to go to CES and find somebody
else. Because they put out more content that
doesn't necessarily look fake, but it doesn't
look better. Well, that doesn't look fake. Yeah,
this does not look fake because this is people
on the floor at CES. Right, but look how much
more awkward its movements are. But they put
out a video where the thing is kicking the CEO.
Yeah. It almost looks real, but it's not. It's
tough. I'd like to see what the others think
of it. Is it funky lighting again? Not that.
It's when they're in the ring with him. Okay.
Hold on a second. Okay, so he's going to go ahead.
Okay, that looks much more real. That looks much
more real, much more awkward. That didn't that
looks fake. I tell you what I wouldn't I would
not do that No, no that looks real to me stand
in front of a hunk of metal is gonna kick the
problem Is it slow motion let me see it again
and in fact did they show it in real speed? It's
just this weird clip of it was kind of strange,
but let me see again Taking the first kick oh
It looks real The only thing I would say is it's
not jumping up and doing spin kicks, but it's
doing some right stuff Well, that would be what
I would teach it First of all, I wouldn't teach
it to do the spin kicks. I'd teach it to do like
a stepping front kick like that. That's the shit
they were showing that people had problems with,
like we just did. But, man, the robots are doing
crazy stuff. Well, they definitely can do crazy
stuff. There was that one demonstration they
did in China. I think you've seen that once.
See, it's bouncing around like in a fight position
here. Like it's ready to go. Checking its legs
out. Wow. But let me see some wheel kicks. That's
the, I mean. See, that's the thing. Why is the
one in the corner looking depressed? That's the
older one. He's right now plotting his strategy
for blackmail to get upgraded software. I don't
know. So what we're looking at was probably some
AI, at least, enhancements. But the problem is
they're not admitting that it is. They're saying
it's not. And I go like, ah, it's tough. Interesting.
Well, I would want to see this thing move in
a similar way that you're seeing in that video.
I mean, that thing shows remarkable agility where
it's jumping up in the air and spinning around.
And this thing's not doing that. It's moving
very differently, isn't it? Yeah. There's a stiffness
to its movements. Looks like you at the gym,
mate. Yeah, it does. It really does. There was
the Chinese demonstration, though. There was
a demonstration where these people were on a
stage and they were doing martial arts and the
robots came out and the robots did martial arts.
That looked real. Right, right. That looked real.
But it didn't. Here's the other video we sort
of saw. Oh, this is crazy. Oh, my God. This is
crazy. That's where they reload. And these are
real, right? Yeah, this is a different video
they had to post because people didn't think
these were real. That looks real. They look like
they're unsullied from Game of Thrones. What
are these ones? Who makes these? I don't know.
I don't know. It doesn't look good, though. That
marching sound is not comforting, is it? No.
It says, world's first mass delivery of humanoid
robots. Yeah, you're going to have cargo ships
filled with these headed to America. Wonderful.
I mean, those are going to be the new police
officers. Uh -huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's not
good. This is... I mean, this is Terminator.
This is the movie. I mean, and if you really
were imagining, like if you were trying to warn
people of an apocalypse and you told it through
stories for generation after generation, and
then eventually people write down their versions
of this story, and then it goes to 2026 where
this stuff is actually happening, maybe this
is what they were warning us about. Yeah. Do
you remember in the 80s and the 90s and the early
noughties, there was this run of great movies
talking about how the robots are going to take
over? Sci -fi books as well. I mean, Isaac Asimov's
stuff was amazing. Philip K. Dick, you know,
Durand Joy's Dream of Electric Sheep, which then
became Blade Runner. All of these. And then no
one's making those movies now, are they? No,
too close to home. I guess iRobot was probably
the last one, right? Yeah, which was iRobot,
which was the one with Tom Cruise, Minority Report,
which was based on a Philip K. Dick. But nobody's
making them anymore because everyone's like,
dude, I know this is going to happen. Right.
I don't need to see this. Well, they're also
talking about using AI to predict people's behavior.
So they're talking about future crime. Minority
Report, right? Yeah. So they've literally talked
about one of the ways that AI can be implemented.
You look at someone's history. You look at someone's
behavior patterns. Look at what they're doing
now, and you predict, oh, this person has been
radicalized. They're about to do X. Yeah. They're
about to tweet something. Arrest them. Yeah.
Graham Lillian picks up his phone. This robot
kicks down the door and arrests him. Poor Graham.
He's doing all right now. Yeah. He's in America.
That's why he's doing all right. I think that
backfired. Yeah, I think people were outraged
by that because it's so outrageous that you meet
that guy at the airport and arrest him. It was
right after he did this podcast, by the way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that's a moment,
even when I was talking to comedians who were
actually woke, they were like, yeah, this is,
you can't do this. The thing is, he didn't even
do it in England. So you're arresting someone
who's not a citizen of the United Kingdom for
a crime. I mean, if we accept that framing, that
they didn't even commit in the country. Right.
Yeah, it's pretty kooky that they went with it.
Yeah. Yeah. And I know the reason is because
every police officer in airports in the UK have
guns. But it's a really bad look. Like there's
five armed police officers arresting a comedy
writer. Yeah. I bet you they felt bad doing it
as well because it's not them that's making up
these dumb ones. Oh, I'm sure. Nobody signs up
to, like, arrest comedy writers in airports.
I don't think that's why the police do it. But
the rules have just got so – Well, you see it
in, like, the humiliation that a lot of these
police officers face when they have to arrest
someone for a Facebook post. Right. Which you
could see, like, they are not happy. And when
people are protesting and yelling, are you fucking
serious? And they're like, I'm just doing my
job. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that's a large
part of the problem. We get former police officers
on the show, and we've got a lot of cops and
former cops who watch the show, and they talk
to us about the state that the British police
force is in, and it's demoralization. Yeah, the
rank and file don't want any of this shit. Well,
same in America. A lot of, especially major blue
cities, where just a few years ago they were
running with that defund the police bullshit,
and then things obviously went sideways, and
most of them sort of course corrected. for the
most part, except in narrative. You know, it's
not like public massive support for the police
officers because they keep society together.
Like in Austin, the cops responded in a minute,
one minute. That guy started gunning people down
at that bar. The cops were there and killed him
in a minute. It's incredible. Incredible. And
they should be applauded for that. I mean, that's
amazing. I mean, that, but, you know, even that,
like in this city, there hasn't been this big.
public support of those officers, this big celebration
of those officers, this big acknowledgement of
the importance of them and how they were willing
to put their life on the line and react so quickly
and so effectively. They're heroes. That's what
they are. They're heroes. And they're heroes
that have been demoralized by the last six years
of horseshit ever since the George Floyd protests.
Well, it was happening before. I mean, if you
go back to Michael Brown. Right. Michael Brown,
what we were told in the media happened is not
what happened. Which one was Michael Brown? Michael
Brown was hands up, don't shoot. Right. He didn't
have his hands up. Right. And he didn't say don't
shoot. Right. He assaulted the police officer.
Right. Right. But the media concoct this story.
And I don't think this is what we came back to,
like what's happening in new media where people
are putting out things that are really damaging
to the fabric of our conversations. Right. And
how we talk about things. Like you say, I mean.
There are bad Apple police officers. Of course
there are. But the majority of them, they are
people who are signing up to risk their life
on a daily basis to protect other people in their
community. And these people all have fucking
PTSD because all they see is the worst of humanity
day in, day out. Every single fucking day, they
get in the car and they go and eat shit for the
rest of the day. And then they go home and they
worry about not coming home. And then someone
tries to run them over with a car like, yeah,
they're going to fucking shoot. And the thing
is that's how society falls apart when you no
longer honor and celebrate the people who are
putting themselves on the line. Well, not just
that. In the case of the lady running over –
she wasn't running him over. I think she was
trying to turn her car away from him. But that
guy had been dragged by a car just a few weeks
earlier. Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
And then on top of that, you have people that
are being paid to protest. So it's organized.
And I'm not saying that lady was, but many people
are. And then you've got all these people that
that becomes the focus of their life. It becomes
a cause that's worthy. You live this mundane,
boring life of desperation. And then all of a
sudden something comes along that gives you hope
and meaning. And like, this is my identity. My
identity is I'm fighting fascism. And I'm out
there in the street. You know, I was on the plane.
to the US I think it was last year and you know
the movie Bridesmaids came up yes so really funny
movie it's 2013 I was like I want something like
let's watch this comedy the romantic interest
in Bridesmaids the main guy you know who his
job is he's a cop can you imagine a movie being
made now like a romantic comedy where the main
guy is a cop and he's a good guy right You just
wouldn't see it. Right. You just wouldn't see
it because cops are oppressors. He's a nice agent
now. Yeah, man. Do you know Yuri Bezmenov talked
about this? Yes. He talked about this. He talked
about the fact that when you see in the culture,
you know, the military, the cops, the firefighters,
all of these people, they're bad. And the criminal
is the one that's to be understood and to be,
you know, that's how you flip society. Yeah.
And that's what we've got. Yeah. That's what
we've got. The Besmanoff speech from 1984, which
is, by the way, such an appropriate date for
him to make that. But it's it's so eerie how
all of that has actually come to pass, because
back then nobody took him seriously at all. Right.
Right. And it didn't it wasn't until like the
2020s that people started reviewing that. And
then once it got on YouTube, then people were
like, oh, this fucking guy nailed it. I think
it's YouTube. And also most people want. Most
people, in my experience, want to pretend that
everything is fine most of the time. So if you
come out in 2018, as we did, and say this woke
shit is getting out of hand and it's going in
a bad direction and it's going to cause a lot
of problems, people make you the problem. They
say you're wrong to talk about this. If you talk
about grooming gangs, you're bad and evil and
whatever. If you talk about free speech. And
people being arrested for tweets and all of this.
People make you the bad guy. And it's only later.
Like I remember – I can't even remember who said
it. But like I had this – oh, no, I remember
who said it. One time I was on TV debating with
this woman about this stuff. And I was saying
cancel culture is bad and she was saying it's
all bullshit, blah, blah, blah. I met her a few
years later and she was like, yeah, I realized
cancel culture is bad. And I went, how did you
realize? And she went, well, my friends started
getting canceled. Most people want to pretend
most of the time everything is fine. But when
they start to see the reality of things and it
starts to affect them, that's when they go, oh,
maybe this Besmenov guy had a point. Yeah. I
had an argument with a seemingly intelligent
person who's a friend of mine when the NSA, when
this whole mass spying thing was, the Edward
Snowden stuff was released. And he was like,
you can look at my shit. I'm not doing anything
wrong. What do you care? I'm like, oh. That's
such a crazy take. Who are these perfect people
that are watching over everything? You don't
think any of them have either some financial
or power -based incentive to do certain things
or silence certain voices? find out what you're
doing, or maybe even manipulate you in some sort
of a way, being able to have access to all of
your emails, all of your phone calls. Those are
just people. And all of them are unelected bureaucrats.
You think that's okay for those people to have
access to everything you've ever said? That's
crazy. And look, maybe the current government
that we have in this place would never dream
of doing such a thing. And maybe they're entirely
honorable and everybody's a great person. They're
this unique human being where they don't have
any ulterior motives. But what's to say the next
government that comes in won't do that and start
looking in and going, hey, you know what? You're
causing me problems, Joe Rogan. You're saying
a lot of things that I don't actually like. Let's
look through your emails. Oh, look, I'll find
one from 14 years ago, which is, you know, whatever
it may be. Let's get rid of you for that. This
was the argument when Obama was pushing the NDAA.
This is the indefinite detention. So this concept
that you didn't have to charge anybody, you don't
have to try them within a timely period, indefinite
detention. Well, we'll never use that. Why are
you pushing it then? Right. Also, who comes after
you, man? How many generations are we away from
Hitler? Who's to say that this new power won't
be used by very unscrupulous people? The founding
fathers of this country really had a good understanding
of how corruption and tyranny sets in. And that's
why they put all these checks and balances in
place. And the more they eroded that, whether
it's the Patriot Act, the Patriot Act II, or
the NDAA. start doing stuff like that, man? You're
just undermining the very fabric that this country
was created with. It's like we were created under
this idea that... We know human nature. We know
that you cannot have power. We know that the
government has to be working for the people.
It can't be we are under the power of these individuals
because those individuals will then act like
tyrants, which is what people always do when
they have power. It's one of the things that
makes America really a great place because you
look at the UK now and, you know, with Francis
is right. And I've said this. I think the next
election is probably going to be Nigel Farage
versus. as these far leftists. If those far leftists
get in power, I mean, they're going to start
regulating podcasts. I guarantee you. 100%. That's
what they're going to do. They're going to say,
we have Ofcom for TV. Well, we need to have it
for other broadcasting. Surely you'd agree with
that, right? Yeah. And then before you know it,
like, everything we do. Before you know it, you
guys are living in Austin. Right. Right. Because
at that point, we would actually leave. Yeah.
You would have to. You would have to. Because
what they would say is, and they would use the
word that they always use, which is, you know,
they're spreading misinformation and hate. Yeah.
When the New York Times spreads misinformation,
that's wonderful. Right. But it's – so yeah,
I think allowing people maximum freedom within
the system you're talking about is a really truly
precious thing. It's why America in this respect
is an example to the rest of the world. I think
if anything that should be done, they should
be able to figure out what – which of these accounts
are bots and eliminate those. I do not think
that you should be allowed to not just run a
bot farm. Or I don't think you should be allowed
to hire people to tweet. I think that's crazy.
And I most certainly don't think you should be
able to use AI. I mean, that seems crazy. It
seems crazy to allow that and pretend that's
a person. But think about it like this, Joe.
How basically did social media start? Facebook,
Meta, all the rest of it. It started by a nerd
in his bedroom, in his college dorm, who set
up a website to rate hot girls on campus. And
my point is, we're creating all of this technology.
We don't know what's going to be the second,
third, fifth, sixth order consequences. And we're
having to figure out as we go along. And now
we're creating artificial intelligences that
are way smarter than us. And you're going, at
what point is this going to run away? Or has
it already run away? And we just don't want to
admit it because most of us don't know enough.
And the ones in charge are delusional. But you're
right, Joe. I think we need a way to know. A,
what is human content and what isn't human content.
Right. And also, I sometimes look at stuff on
social media and I go, there's no fucking way
this take got 50 ,000 likes on X. No fucking
way. Right, right. You know what I mean? Right.
But that is shaping people's perception of reality.
And that is informing political debate. And that
is then informing how people vote. And where
did those 40 ,000 likes come from? Right. Did
they come from within America? Did they come
from within Britain? Because what if they didn't?
Right. So who is then shaping the political direction
of our countries? We need to know that. Yeah,
we do need to know that. We need to know that.
Because it is effective. Even if someone has
a completely preposterous and radical position,
a couple steps down from that, that becomes more
palatable. Right. Because now it's closer to
– like the farther left the left goes, the weirder
the center gets because the center starts accepting
things that were far left positions. And the
same on the right. Same on the right. Same exactly
on the right. And you can shift narratives by
really radical ideologies or really radical thoughts
and radical declarations and you could change
like what's acceptable. So an example of that
is during the Euros, the 2021 final, it was England
versus Italy, right? And it was a tight game
and it went to penalty shootout. And three black
England footballers missed the penalty and we
ended up losing the European Cup to the Italians.
And afterwards, these three black footballers
got... with racism and horrible things. That
sparked a conversation in our country about we
have a real problem with racism. This is disgraceful
that these black footballers are exposed to this
level of racism. It's unacceptable. Of course
it is. All those things are true, but basically
about them being exposed to racism is not acceptable.
And then it went into a discussion about England
being a racist country, white supremacist, and
this became widespread. And the example of what
these footballers were exposed to... was used
as a way to justify this opinion. And you could
see a lot of people accept that opinion until
a couple of days later when they investigated
where the majority of the tweets came from and
messages. And I think something like 85%, if
not 90, came from outside the UK, if not even
more than that. So you're going, oh, so this
entire conversation that we have had about white
supremacy, about black people not being accepted
in our country, about the fact there's second
-class citizens. And look, this example of them
being exposed to horrendous racism when the fact
is the majority of it came from outside the UK.
And then you have to ask the question, who benefits?
Right. Who benefits from us hating each other,
obsessing about our differences, worrying about
how we're the most racist places in the world
when this narrative is likely being driven by
actually racist countries? Right? Right. Because
that's what's happening. Yes. And we are allowing
it to happen. And I think we just haven't woken
up to the fact that we are living in the age
of informational warfare. And we, because of
our belief in freedom, have just got lost in
this fact that we are under attack. It's a very
good point. I have to pee. We'll come back with
that. Awesome. Let's do that. I'll go pee as
well. Speaking of religion, so show us this Sam
Tripoli Facebook take. He was on Danny Jones,
and this is what he said about Facebook. Volume.
Yeah. It's a giant lie. It's a propaganda piece.
That was a Pentagon program called LifeLog. LifeLog
is a Pentagon program that wants to collect all
your data for your whole life. What day did the
government stop the LifeLog? Whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa. DARPA shut down the LifeLog project
February 4th, 2004. What day was Facebook registered
as a business? Oh, my God. No way, bro. The exact
same day. They don't even hide it, dude. It was
created by DARPA. Yeah. They handed it to Mark
Zuckerberg. And then the Vossel twins. What about
the other? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all. And
that's why they became the first Bitcoin millionaires,
because they play ball. It's all theater, dude.
So what is the purpose of lifelong? To collect
all your data for your whole entire life. Okay.
Take this with many grains of salt. Sam is one
of my best friends. I've known him for decades.
He's a wonderful person, but he's a kook. But
he's right a lot. Yeah. I don't know if he's
right about this. Right. Yeah. Jamie thinks he's
right? It is. It was. It's not that he's incorrect.
I would say that. He's making some connections.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's definitely right about
the dates. And that is a little weird. Yes. That
it's ended on the same day where Facebook is
beginning. A little weird. Yeah. You know. What
do you think the appeal is of like... When I
went down this rabbit hole here, it said it was
made by the Information Processing Techniques
Office of the CIA, I think, or something. But
here's some other fun projects that are associated
with this. Biologically inspired cognitive architectures.
Wait, what? Yep, there's just a couple. Biologically
inspired cognitive architectures. That sounds
like artificial intelligence. Yeah. Bootstrapping
learning. What was the other one, Jamie? This
Forrester thing. Forced air program to develop
helicopter -borne radar system that can detect
soldiers and vehicles moving underneath foliage
cover. Whoa. Deep green. U .S. Army battlefield
decision -making support system. Yeah, this is
all AI. Heterogeneous urban RST -8. So they were
planning on this in the... This was 2004 is when
that thing ended, the lifelog thing. So, I mean,
it even goes back to says they were working on
ARPANET back in the 60s. Whoa. Speaking of the
internet. By the way, Joe, have you had anyone
on to talk about this weapon that the US forces
used in Venezuela? No. No, I haven't. Not yet.
But there was something like they used something,
right? Yes. Something that makes your brain water
temperature rise and so you get nosebleeds and
shit. Is that what it is? Well, my cousin told
me when I was talking after the attack. Your
cousin in Venezuela? My cousin in Venezuela,
yeah. He was saying that it seemed like in a
one -mile radius, everybody's windows got blown
out. Well, that's just blast. That's not like
it. But what I heard was that they had some kind
of weapon. Some sonic weapon. I don't know if
it was sonic, maybe, but something that incapacitates
people and makes them very uncomfortable, basically.
But without killing them. Was it 60 Minutes?
Yeah. Yeah. So 60 Minutes said that these guys
acquired some weapon from Russian black market.
And it's a very small, portable weapon that you
can carry around with you. and does something
very similar. What is their claim on this? Oh,
well, there's two different things going on with
the 60 Minutes thing. They had a story a couple
months ago where they were tracking a guy, and
then they just had an update, I think, over the
weekend that added to it. But what is the claim?
Oh, I think they found the guy that said he was
doing it, I believe. Right. He had a device in
his car or something like that. And you could
just point it at people, but you could carry
it around. Yeah, that is where it gets strange.
I mean, the 60 Minutes thing from yesterday going
around, I didn't watch it, so I don't know what
they were talking about. Oh, the Havana syndrome.
Yes. Yeah, but it has to do with that, and that's
what I was trying to – Trump had this discombobulator
weapon. Right, right. That's what I'm talking
about. Discombobulator. It's the most Trump name
for it, isn't it? It's kind of the description
of what the Havana syndrome weapon is. Yes. The
discombobulator. But it seems like whatever its
effectiveness is, the Havana syndrome is very
small. in comparison to what these things are
doing. These things are completely incapacitating
people. You know, I don't think people talk about
this enough. You know when they came in to take
Maduro? You know what they also did? I mean,
you probably know this. They fired a rocket into
Chavez's mausoleum. They did? Yeah. Just to be
like, go fuck your mom. I'm going to bump your
grave. Wow. Isn't that the most Trump thing ever?
You know how much those things cost? Yeah. Oh,
yeah. Millions of dollars. Millions. So millions
just to say, fuck you? Yeah. She fired a rocket
into his grave. Yeah. This is the American way,
baby. We're going to fire some expensive shit.
That's crazy. In your grave. That's crazy. But
under any other president, you would have gone,
that's bullshit. Right. But under Trump, you're
like, yeah, of course. You think it was his idea?
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a thought. That sounds
exactly like a Trump idea. So this weapon that,
what is the details? I don't know. We can just
watch this. Yeah, let's see what he says here.
Well, we could just read. Okay, go ahead. Okay,
let's play it. Let's play it. Here it goes. Tales
of a classified microwave weapon that may explain
mysterious brain injuries suffered by U .S. officials.
We've been investigating these injuries for nine
years, and now our sources tell us this microwave
weapon is portable, concealable, and uses relatively
little power. Hundreds of possible attacks have
been reported, including, we've learned, at CIA
headquarters in Virginia, and at least two incidents
on the grounds of the White House. For years,
the government doubted the stories of the injured,
but now the victims, including former CIA officer
Mark Polymeropoulos, hope that word of a newly
discovered weapon will finally vindicate them.
There's a part of this, Scott, that has to do
with moral injury, and that's the idea of betrayal.
You know, I worked for 26 years for the CIA.
I think I was involved in every covert action
program in the Middle East. I did some very interesting
things for the U .S. government, always with
the idea that they would have my back if I got
jammed up. I just needed to get medical care
when I came back, and they wouldn't even do that.
So this moral injury, this sense of betrayal
is so acute with me. That's something that I
can never forgive them for. Mark Polymeropoulos
rose to an executive level at the CIA about the
equivalent of a three -star general. He was awarded
a top decoration for service. 60 Minutes has
learned to take... Not much about the weapon,
unfortunately. But it's interesting that the
way that they did that, they did that operation.
Because when I was talking to my cousins and
my friends about what happened, no one in Venezuela
had a clue. And they were... My friend said that
he was woken up around 2 in the morning by a
plane going overhead. And there's a no -fly zone
over Caracas. At that time, especially. And he
was like, what is this? And he said, you heard
this almighty boom. And everybody was just, nobody
knew what was happening. They don't have X in
Venezuela for obvious reasons. So everybody was
in the dark. And it was only via Instagram and
Facebook that they started to understand what
had just gone on. But it was complete disbelief
that the Americans had done that. They don't
have X, do they have threads? Which is like X0.
Yeah, X0. Yeah, I imagine they must do. But he
said the way that everybody was communicating
was via Instagram. Interesting. What are people
saying now in Venezuela? So now I talk to my
friends. He said that things are getting better.
He said things are getting better. He said the
crime was down 75%. I mean, I don't know how
true this is. He said things are slowly starting
to get liberalized. I was talking to a Colombian
friend of mine who was saying that people, Venezuelans
in Colombia are now starting to go back because
whilst the regime is still obviously not perfect,
what you essentially have is a puppet regime.
And they know that the moment they step out of
line, they know the moment they, to use Trump's
parlance, fuck about, something will happen.
They're kept on a straight line. Yeah, they have
to behave. They can't do what Maduro did. And
what's interesting about when Maduro was captured
is nobody really mentioned that much about his
wife. A lot of people say that his wife was the
brains behind the operation because Maduro, there's
clips of him that went viral on TikTok and Instagram
and on Twitter as well, where he was doing speeches
and he had to do basic mental arithmetic and
he couldn't do it. This guy was a bus driver.
He was picked by Chavez when Chavez was on his
deathbed in 2013, dying from stomach cancer,
and he appointed Maduro. Everybody was shocked
because they were saying, well, Maduro wasn't...
the most capable. He wasn't the most intelligent.
But what Maduro was, is he was the most loyal
out of all Chavez's underlings. So he was picked
not for his brilliance, not for his sharpness,
but because he was a company man. And actually,
the person who the Venezuelans hated the most
was his wife, because she was the brains behind
the operation. She was the one in charge of the
kidnappings, the tortures, the murders. So when
she was kidnapped, people were happier. that
she was on the helicopter than Maduro himself.
Really? Yeah. Lady Macbeth. She was way more
cruel than Maduro. Wow. Way more cruel. It's
interesting you say things are getting better
now because it's short term, right? We don't
know. Yeah. This has happened a lot of times
in Latin America, right? People get overthrown,
things are getting better, and then some shit
happens. Yeah, not the most stable place. Not
the most stable people, Joe, I'm going to be
honest with you. They're my people. It's either,
you know, it's either fascismo or viva la revolución.
And you're like, guys, can we have a little middle?
And they're like, no, viva la revolución. You
know, they're excitable people. And you also
wonder how much the fact that Venezuela in particular
is so resource rich. A lot of, like a lot of,
Francis always says to me, like, you know, it
could be a really great country, really wealthy.
And I go, I don't know that having those resources
makes a country better. Because what you get
is a corrupt elite who are fighting for control
of these resources that are so easy to get. Like
in 1990s Russia, when the Soviet Union collapsed,
the people who took over all the resource companies,
the oil companies, the gas companies, like Russia
is basically, all it is, is a... in terms of
its economy is digging shit out of the ground
and selling it. That's what it is. And the poetry.
Yeah, not a lot of money to be made in poetry,
right? But the people who took over those companies,
they weren't people who knew anything about the
oil business. They weren't people who knew anything
about the gas business because all you really
had to do is take over and then you just let
Western companies come in and do the drilling
and the oil field services and all of it for
you. So these countries which are so resource
rich, it actually makes them more corrupt. and
more unstable, the resource wealth they have
doesn't actually make them better for the people
because the corrupt elites fight over those resources.
And that's where you get the bullshit that you
get. And it's true. So Venezuela, before Chavez
came to power, was 98 % dependent on oil. The
economy. The entire economy was 98 % dependent
on oil. The slight difference with Venezuela
is when we were taken over by Chavez, he then
installed his cronies in charge of PDVSA, which
is the Venezuelan oil company. And he cut out
all the people who were competent, all the people
who would criticize him ideologically. And as
a result, what you had is fundamentally incompetent
people at the top, which meant that it became
degraded. It was no longer able to pump the oil.
It wasn't reliable. So that's a large part of
the reason why the economy collapsed is it was
entirely dependent on oil. They appointed their
cronies who couldn't actually do the job. The
oil industry failed and we descended into poverty
and chaos. How much do you know about Brazil?
Not a lot. Why? Well, that situation is very
confusing, right? Lula goes to jail. Now he's
out. He's running the country. And they jailed
Jair Bolsonaro, right? Mm -hmm. And then they
tried to ban X. Yeah. And they did for a while,
right? I think so. And they had to make probably
some concessions. I don't know a lot about it,
truthfully, Joe. Yeah, yeah. We're going to do
that thing that no one does on the internet is
admit we don't know something. As long as we
don't have hot digs. What is this, Jimmy? These
are kind of crazy descriptions of this weapon.
This is from the longer version of the CBS News
60 Minutes article where they're talking to that
guy we just saw. I would say start right around
here, and then I'll skip to another paragraph.
Three independent sources from different agencies
tell us undercover Homeland Security agents purchased
a miniaturized microwave weapon from a complex
Russian criminal network. It's classified. We
didn't see it, but it has been described to us.
We were told it doesn't look anything like a
gun. It's designed to be concealed and small
enough to be carried by a person. It is silent
and doesn't create heat like a microwave oven.
Our sources say the device is programmable for
different scenarios. It can be operated by remote
control. The range of the beam is several hundred
feet. It can penetrate windows and drywall. The
vital components were made in Russia. Our sources
say the key is not the hardware but the software.
The programming shapes a unique electromagnetic
wave that rises and falls abruptly and pulses
rapidly. So then it turns out they have tested
this apparently in U .S. military labs. Our confidential
sources tell us still. classified weapon has
been tested in a u .s military lab for more than
a year tests on rats and sheep show injuries
consistent with those seen in humans also as
a separate part of the investigation security
camera videos have been collected that show americans
being hit the videos are classified but they
were described to us in one a camera in a restaurant
in istanbul captured two FBI agents on vacation
sitting at a table with their families. A man
with a backpack walks in and suddenly everyone
at the table grabs their head as if in pain.
Our sources say that another video comes from
a stairwell in the U .S. Embassy in Vienna. The
stairs lead to a secure facility. In the video,
two people on the stairs suddenly collapse. Those
videos and the weapon were among the reasons
the Biden administration summoned about half
a dozen victims to the White House with about
two months left in the president's term. And
then that guy was also one of the people in there.
Ads are kind of fucking up this website. But
he just sort of says someone admitted to him
that they treated him poorly. Yeah. That's the
biggest cover up I've seen in my adult life.
Interesting. I don't get the, like, the border.
If Russia has this weapon, why didn't they use
it to take out Zelensky? Well, it seems like
it's only for a couple hundred feet. That's what
they were just saying. Like, it has to be close.
Right. So what was the one they used in Venezuela
then? They started off saying it was in a truck.
It was truck size. But then that's where it goes.
I started you just past that where they said
it's actually way smaller. Interesting. So this
is the one that you could carry around. But do
we know that that's the same one they use in
Venezuela or do they use something that's completely
different technology? Yeah, the reality is we
just don't know. I mean, the interesting thing
as well with Venezuela is like Maduro is so retarded.
There's a hot take. How retarded is he? This
is a joke. Set up punchline. He literally said
to America, I'm not going to do what you say.
Go fuck yourself. Come and get me. Yeah, he did
that. That was cocaine. And it's not just that.
So, for instance, the country next to Venezuela
is called Guyana. And in Guyana, they recently
discovered oil. Really huge, large deposits of
oil. And there's been... Guyana is a former British
colony. And Venezuela and Guyana have always
been disputes about territory. About one particular
part of... I think it's called Esquibo, which
is basically rainforest. They always argue about
it, but no one cared. Until they discovered oil
there. At which point Maduro went... You know
what? You know how we've been talking about this?
Turns out it is Venezuelan. They did a referendum
in Venezuela where you basically asked people
who were entirely subjugated, starving, living
in misery and poverty, whether they wanted to
start a war with Guyana. Do you know how many
Venezuelans voted for it? 92%, Joe. 92 % of Venezuelans
wanted to go to war despite the fact they didn't
have the strength to even pick up a gun because
they're so malnourished. And then he started
teaching in schools, redrawing the map of Venezuela
so all the school kids now think that Venezuela
incorporates this territory. He was antagonizing
the Americans and their allies consistently.
And unlike Iran, he doesn't have the infrastructure.
He doesn't have... That amount of the military,
the power, the organization. He made himself
so vulnerable. So vulnerable. Who looks at Trump
and goes, yeah, let's fuck with that guy. Right.
He's 80. He doesn't have much to lose. Right.
Last term. That's the scary thing about old leaders.
It's like death is imminent. It's within a decade
if you're lucky. That's spooky. That's spooky.
You know, you're making decisions for babies
and children and the future of the world, and
you've only got 10, maybe 10 years left on Earth
if everything goes great. And also, you start
to degrade. Oh, yeah. Your cognitive functions.
I'm not saying that he's got dementia or anything
like that, but you're just not as sharp when
you're that age as you are when you're younger.
He is kind of weird. Like, when I think about
how much Barack Obama aged, how much Tony Blair
aged. Trump has not aged like that. Yeah, and
he is a terrible diet. I mean, especially when
he's on the road. He just eats junk food because
he says it's like JFK or RFK Jr. rather told
me he eats junk food because he knows that when
he eats fast food that it's not going to be poison.
Like he knows he can eat it and not worry about
getting food poisoning. What? What? What? Exactly.
Does that make any fucking sense? Well, it does
because it's filled with preservatives. So you're
not going to get food poisoning from a Big Mac.
When was the last time you heard about anybody
getting food poisoning from a Big Mac? Right?
Fucking never happens because nothing can grow
on those things. Really. Like, for real. You've
seen them. They take like a hamburger. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Decades. Decades. Decades. They don't
rot. There's so much preservatives in the bread
and whatever the meat is fucking made with. But
this is my point. It's like Trump hasn't aged
like much younger men. Which is even crazier
because you consider he doesn't exercise. Right.
And he's been under colossal – I mean I don't
know, but I imagine he's been under a bit of
pressure and stress. Well, assassination attempts
and just all that, almost going to jail, right?
Like 34 felonies sort of trumped up, pardon the
pun, against him. He's a Russian agent and all
this bullshit. Yeah. And he's just like – It's
kind of impressive in a way. Oh, that part's
very impressive. Yeah. And he's funny. He's always
joking around about that stuff. He's very lighthearted
about it all. He is. Like when he was talking
about the Iranian Navy. Did you see that? He
was like, they've lost 14 ships. We sunk a submarine.
But apart from that, they're doing really well.
He's very relaxed for a man in that. Like, it's
hard to imagine. I cannot imagine being in charge
of anything like a thousandth of that size. Right.
Just imagine the stress that you guys have running
trigonometry. Right. Yeah. Right. It's stressful,
I'm sure. Francis is aged like Barack Obama.
Yeah, I used to have black hair. Now I just look
like an aging lesbian, John. It is stressful,
right? Yeah. And that is the highest stress that
I can ever imagine. I can't imagine a level higher.
Do you know, I always remember after the war
in Iraq, and Blair was still in power, but it
was towards the end. I was watching the news
with my dad, and this woman in her 50s came along
and she put a wreath at the door of 10 Downing
Street. And that was a mother whose son had died
in Iraq and placed a wreath at 10 Downing Street
of all the soldiers that died. I'm like, even
if the war was justified, even if it was the
right thing to do, which I don't think it was,
I would still find it impossible to sleep. Right.
Now, just imagine it was the colossal fuck up
that that war was. Right. And those people died
as a result of your decision. But how do you,
unless you're a sociopath, I think that's an,
you can't, can you live with that? Right. I think
it's impossible to live with. Clearly not. I
mean, we've got people who are heavily responsible
for promoting that war in the UK now. Like Alistair
Campbell. He was the spin doctor that helped
Blair lie the country into the war in Iraq. He
now has a really big podcast. And like all the
young people are, oh, really? Tell me more. No
way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he's the Rush
Limbaugh of the UK? How do you mean? Sorry, I
don't know enough about Rush Limbaugh. I've heard
the name, but I don't get the reference in the
way that you mean it. He was the big right wing
propagandist on radio. Excellence in broadcasting.
Oh, by the way, have you seen the. the memes
that think that Rush Limbaugh is actually Jim
Morrison. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you look at
his facial features in comparison to Jim Morrison's
facial features, they're almost identical. It's
kind of nuts. They do like a scan where they
like superimpose. So Rush Limbaugh is a media
guy. Alistair Campbell, he was working for Tony
Blair. Right. To shape the media now as a podcast.
And all the young people, oh, really? Well, there
was a lot of young men in particular that were
really into Rush Limbaugh. A lot of people were
crediting him with turning young people towards
a right -wing direction. This was during the
Obama administration. Watch when they grow over.
Pretty close. It's like Alex Jones and Bill Hicks.
Have you seen that? That one's ridiculous. I
met both of them. They don't look anything like
each other. Look at this. Look at that. That
is kind of crazy. Wow. It's pretty close. Wow.
Well, you know, there's the other crazy conspiracy
theory involving the counterculture movement
of the 1960s with the CIA. There's a book on
it, Strange Times in Laurel Canyon. The book's
nuts. You realize how many of these very popular
counterculture figures had families that were
in the military, like high -level military intelligence
officers, including Morrison. Oh, yeah, Morrison's
dad was very senior in the military. Yeah, and
a bunch of other people that were also involved
in the whole Laurel Canyon rock scene, and that
it was somehow or another at least promoted.
By intelligence agencies, if not formulated.
And by counterculture, you mean like what, like
hippies? Yep. Yeah. So the hippie movement was
promoted by intelligence? Yeah. Why? That's a
good question. Well, we know, without saying
definitively, but pretty close, based on Tom
O 'Neill's book, Chaos, that they were absolutely
involved in the Manson family. So the reason
for them being involved in the Manson family
is, say, you have this new culture that's arising
that doesn't embrace materialism, make love,
not war. You've got all these people drop out,
tune in. Timothy Leary. Yeah, the Timothy Leary
people, the people that want to do acid and just
want to reimagine society. So this is a radical
change. This is a radical change from the 1950s
to the 1960s. It's pretty crazy. So what do you
do to stop that? Well, what you do is you find
a guy who's very charismatic, who is a sociopath,
who's in prison, and you find that guy and teach
him how to be a cult leader. And then you give
him acid and you show him how to administer acid
and how to not take it and have all of his followers
take it and then direct their thoughts and then
eventually program them. Like MKUltra style to
commit murders. So they have the LaBianca murders.
They have a bunch of other stuff that they did
before that. He's gotten arrested multiple times.
Every time he gets arrested, they let him go.
And when they let him go, like one of the sheriff
says, I was told it was above my pay grade. So
you're letting a guy go who's a violent criminal,
who's violating parole, who's a lifelong con
man. And now he is running this cult and this
cult is murderous. tate la bianca murders the
manson family murders all that stuff becomes
public there's the hearings the trials the whole
thing so the entire public narrative changes
on what a hippie is now hippies are dangerous
so before hippies were like we're non -violent
we want love we have flowers and now it's like
oh these fucking people will cut your baby out
and write pig on the wall with your blood Is
the Altamont concert connected to that? Excuse
me? The Altamont concert. What is that? You know
the Rolling Stones concert? Oh, that was the
Hell's Angels, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that
was kind of seen, I don't know, it's just a question
I'm asking, because that was seen as the end
of the hippie movement, wasn't it? That was the
death. That was the final. Deathrattle, the hippie
movie. Was it? That's how it was written and
portrayed. Well, that's odd because Hell's Angels
are not hippies, and having Hell's Angels as
security is a wild move. Yeah. That's crazy.
Yeah, because it was a Rolling Stones concert,
but because it was a free concert, wasn't it?
That was a thing. How did they go about hiring?
See if you can find the history on that. Did
they go about hiring the Hell's Angels? Yeah.
Both previously used the Angels for security
at performances without incident. Grateful Dead
and Jefferson Airplane. This is also, the next
sentence says it was denied, so I don't know.
Right. But that's what it says in the Wikipedia
here. It says for $500 worth of beer, that's
all they had to pay them. The story was denied
by some parties who were directly involved. According
to the road manager of the Rolling Stones 1969
U .S. tour, Sam Cutler, the only agreement there
ever was the Angels would make sure that nobody
tampered with the generators, and that was the
extent of it. But there was no way they're going
to be the police force or anything like that.
That's all bollocks. The deal was made at a meeting
including Cutler, Grateful Dead manager, Rock
Scully, and Pete Nell, member of the Hells Angels
San Francisco chapter. According to Cutler, the
arrangement was that all the bands were supposed
to share the $500 beer cost, but the person who
paid it was me, and I never got it back to this
day. Okay. So the Hells Angels. Angel's guy says,
we don't police things. We're not a security
force. We go to concerts and enjoy ourselves
and have fun. Well, what about helping people
out, you know, giving directions and things?
He says, sure, we can do that. How they would
be paid? He said, we like beer. In the documentary,
Gimme Shelter, Sonny Barger. The guy that was
the head of the Hells Angels stated that the
Hells Angels were not interested in policing
the event and that organizers had told them the
Angels would not be required to do, or would
be required rather, to do little more than sit
on the edge of the stage, drink beer, and make
sure there weren't any murders or rapes occurring.
Hmm. The only reason I said that is because that
was kind of one of the events that was heralded
to be the end of the hippie movement. Right.
So what happened? They stabbed people? Something
happened? I think it was a free concert that
the Rolling Stones and these bands put on, and
then it degenerated, and then a riot broke out,
and then the Hells Angels, who was obviously
not trained security, then went on the rampage.
And how many people died? That I don't know.
Does it say here, Jamie? A woman got killed?
Whoa. So it says concealing the remaining 14
stabbings? What? He was high on meth when he
died. Oh, boy. Quitted after jury reviewed the
concert footage. Rolling Stones were aware of
the skirmish, but not the stabbing. Couldn't
see anything. It was just another scuffle. Jagger
tells David Malesless. During film editing, it
soon became apparent they could see something
of what happened because the band stopped playing
mid -song and Jagger was heard calling into his
microphone. Really got someone hurt here. Is
there a doctor? After a few minutes, the band
began playing again and eventually completed
their set. They had to get paid. The band on
the show at one point was to say, Altamont became,
whether fairly or not, a symbol for the death
of the Woodstock Nation. Interesting. Yeah, I
mean, it seems like if you're going to have concerts,
especially if you're going to have free concerts,
and you're going to be using Hell's Angels as
a deterrent, you know, things could definitely
go sideways. Yeah, definitely. And maybe they
just got lucky before when they did it for Jefferson
Airplane and The Grateful Dead. Yeah. Joe, not
to change the subject, but have you been following
this beef between Eddie Hearn and Dana White?
A little bit. Because it's kind of interesting
to me because boxing seems to be, like, changing,
right, because of what Zuffer Boxing is doing.
Is that something you're, like, excited about,
the possibility that boxing, which has been in,
you know, there's so much bullshit going on and
you so very rarely see the best fighters fighting
each other, that that might change? Well, the
beef with those two, I don't know the root of
it. I think it's essentially that... It's competition.
Dana's now entering into the MMA space. Into
the boxing space. Excuse me, the boxing space.
I was going to say Eddie Hearn is now entering
into the MMA space because now he's a manager
of Tom Aspinall, which is very interesting. Anything
that gets fighters more money, I'm for. More
attention, more money, more different promoters,
more people competing to give people higher purses.
The real problem is with MMA, there's nothing.
I mean, there's essentially the UFC and everything
else is a distant second. Yeah. And it's a distant
second in terms of attention. In some places,
it's not a distant second in terms of revenue,
right? So like the PFL, for instance, the PFL
was offering a million dollars for anybody who
could win these tournaments. And the caliber
of fighters that were winning this tournament
were not. the same caliber as UFC champions.
And then some of the people that were competing
in the UFC were not making as much money as these
people that had left the UFC because they really
weren't able to beat the best guys. They went
over there and they made a million dollars. I
think that's good for fighters. It's not good
for really talented guys that really want to
be the UFC champion because you can languish
over there for a long time. And there's some
good examples of guys who spent four, five, six
years over there that really had potential to
be a world champion. And they are, you know,
in quotes, a world champion over there. But ask
the average person on the street who they are.
No one knows. Ask them who Alex Pereira is. Everybody
knows. Those guys, if they're doing that and
they're getting paid more, you have to make a
decision. Are you willing to take more money
now in this organization versus the potential
of much more fame, sponsors, and maybe less money
initially in the UFC? But if you can be a champion,
that's really what every fighter wants to be.
Because if you spend five, six years in an organization,
the reality is your prime is about five, six
years. You look at the elite of the elite guys,
Anderson Silva in his prime, it's about five,
six years. Fedor Emelianenko in his prime, it's
about five, six years. So you could burn out
your prime in an organization where you're not
getting as much recognition. So it depends on
what you're doing it for. If you're purely a
prize fighter and you want to fight for the highest
bidder, the difference between MMA and the UFC
is you can do that in boxing. So in boxing, people
go to see the fighter. Terrence Crawford is fighting
Canelo Alvarez. My mom could be the promoter.
Nobody gives a shit. They want to see that fight.
And you put that fight on pay -per -view, it's
going to sell. You put it on DAZN, you put it
on Netflix, it's going to sell. In MMA, that's
not necessarily the case. The interesting challenge
to that is this Netflix thing. So with Ronda
Rousey versus Gina Carano. Even though Gina Carano
hasn't fought since the 2000s. I don't remember
what year was the last time she fought. I want
to make a guess. Let me guess. I want to say
2007, 2008. When was the last time Gina Carano
fought? And she's 43. And I think Ronda's 39.
But Ronda's so famous. And people are so interested.
And if it's on Netflix and people already have
Netflix. I guarantee you, you'll get millions
of people to watch that. So that'll be good,
right? And that's good for the fighters. And
I know they offered some fighters that I know
a very large purse to compete on that card. Well,
Francis Ngannou might be one, right? He might
be. Yeah. There's talk of that. No, actually,
I think that's been confirmed. I think he's fighting
Philip Linz. 2009. Okay. So that was the last
time she fought. Chris Cyborg was a beast. Yeah.
There was a lot of supplements involved in that.
There was a lot going on with her. I mean, that
was the Wild West of testing, and she looked
a freak. Yeah, the eye test was kind of— Yeah,
the eye test was 100%. But it'll still be exciting.
People will—and hopefully they've had enough
time. I know there's a lot of video footage of
Rhonda training for quite a while. She lost a
lot of weight. She got really slim. She looks
fit. She looks— especially with her grappling.
She's doing a lot of judo throws and arm bars,
and she's lost a step. There's a difference between
that and competition. There's ring rust. There's
a lot of factors. Gina Carano was a legit Muay
Thai champion. She's got real power, and she
was a very good striker when she was young. She
was a very technical, solid striker when she
was young. How long has it been since she, you
know? I mean, how long did she stop training
for, right? She did movies. She's done The Mandalorian.
She's had a lot of success acting. But it seems
like there was probably quite a bit of time.
She lost a ton of weight, too. Look. And she
looks quite a bit bigger. Those are two attractive
ladies, if you want to say so. Yep. Oh, Jake
Paul is in the middle. Yeah. Ronald looks very
angry. He looks kind of awkward there, Jake,
to be honest. You know, when it comes to grappling,
you give Ronda a big advantage. She's one of
the best submission artists ever, period. You
know, her arm bar is about as good as a cat's.
She's got fantastic judo, bronze medalist in
the Olympics. But when it comes to Gina, Gina
was like a solid striker when she was young.
And the difference in striking would definitely
benefit Gina. You would have to lean in her direction.
But again, when you're talking about like 2009.
It's a long time, man, 17 years. It's a long
time to not compete. Well, there do seem to be
a lot of fights nowadays in various disciplines
happening where it's like you're not seeing people
at their prime. You're maybe sometimes seeing
people who aren't professionals but are famous.
And there seems to be a lot of money to be made
doing that. Yeah, as long as you match them correctly,
right? Yeah. That was the thing that was wild
with Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua. Uh -huh.
Jake Paul is a cruiserweight, and you've got
Joshua, who is heavy for the heavyweight division.
You looked at the size matchup between the two,
and at one point I was like, he's going to kill
him. Well, he did. I mean, I think Jake probably
knew it going in, and I think his game plan was
just to move a lot, and he did a lot of that,
did a lot of moving. He hit him a few times,
and he hit him with some... wild shots from the
outside where he kind of dove in and threw wild
punches. I think that was probably part of the
strategy. But I mean, ultimately, you're looking
at Anthony Joshua, who's not just a heavyweight
champion in boxing, but a one -punch knockout
artist and a former Olympic gold medalist. He's
a fucking highly skilled man. Very highly, highly
skilled. That was a strange fight because up
to that point, Jake Paul's fight was the other
way around. Like, he clearly had an advantage.
And that was like flipping the script the other
way. Well, smart dude. You know, very smart.
Do you think that was smart? Yeah. Very smart
in how he promotes himself. Smart in that, like,
you can't criticize him for not fighting dangerous
fights anymore. Well, that you've got to respect.
Yeah. The Mike Tyson one was a little sus. I
mean, Mike Tyson is, you know. He's on the older
side. Whereas Anthony Joshua, he's not that old.
It's not just that. Like, the fight itself was
a little sus. How do you mean? Because it looked
like a sparring match. Right. It looked like
there was an agreement in place. Okay. I don't
know if there was, you know, but Terrence Crawford
thought it was. Really? Yeah. It looked a little
sus. I mean, Mike is... How old is Mike? 58?
59? Yeah. I mean, I still wouldn't get in a ring
with him. Yeah, no. I'd still kill you. But it's
like... I mean, it's not saying that Jake would
have even won. I mean, who knows? I mean, if...
If Mike really could have, you saw he's capable
of those flurries when he's hitting pads. He's
still capable of massive speed and power. It's
not saying that, but it's like, could he sustain
a real fight? Does he want to get hit in the
head anymore at this point in his life? And it's
also when you get to that age, you can look and
you can, there'll be glimpses where you're like,
oh, this is the old, the Tyson of old. But it's
also as well. He's still a 58 -year -old dude.
You know, a punch around the head, that can cause
a brain hemorrhage, et cetera, and he can die.
Sure. Fighters die at the peak of their powers
or get brain damage. I mean, it's going to be,
I'm no neurologist, but I'm certain that that
is a higher risk when you're 58. Yeah, I would
recommend it. So this is why I asked you about
Eddie Hearn and Dana. There's talk about them
having a boxing match. Oh, that's funny. Dana
can box. He can really box. I've seen Dana hit
mitts before. I've seen Dana spar. Dana can actually
box. And there was a time where Dana was supposed
to have a boxing match with Tito Ortiz. Right.
Wow. And even Tito acknowledged, because Dana
was his manager at one point in time, even Tito
acknowledged, like, Dana's a really good boxer.
He can box. He spent a lot of his time boxing
when he was young. I mean, I don't know how much
of it he's doing these days. He's so fucking
busy. He's so involved in Zufa boxing now. He's
involved in some of these Riyadh season events.
So it's like, you know, I think it's probably
just talk. Eddie Hearn's a very tall guy, though.
He's a big dude. Yeah, he's a big dude. And he
used to box as well. Did he? He boxed his dad,
I think. I heard him talking about that. Interesting.
Yeah. Yeah. There's a fight. Yeah. I mean, I
guess. I don't want to see it. I'll watch, though.
Well, this is what I mean. You don't want to
see it, but you'll watch. Well, there's certain
things I don't want to see that I watch, like
slap fight. Like if someone sends me a video,
if it shows up on my Instagram feed of some poor
slob getting slapped in the shadow realm, I'll
watch it. Just for how they hit their head off
the table and stiffen up on the way down? Yeah.
That's combat sports for the TikTok generation.
Yeah. When you think about it. It's not even
combat sports. I mean, it's just slapping each
other. That's all it is. If you want to call
slapping each other a sport, that seems crazy.
It's also there's a fundamental problem with
slap fighting is that someone has to go first.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's a giant advantage. Right.
Going first is the biggest advantage of all time.
Right. You know? And how's that decided? Coin
toss. I don't know. I don't watch it. Is it?
I have no idea. No. I physically can't watch
it, to be honest. Yeah. Well, to me, it's like
this, at least Zufa boxing, is real. This is
a real combat sport, whereas it's not just slapping
each other in the head. Well, to me, the exciting
thing, and correct me if this is wrong, but the
exciting thing is it has felt for a long time
that seeing top boxers fighting each other is
a rare occurrence. Right. UFC, you see that every
single card. Yeah. Well, the Saudis are stepping
up, and that's, you know, with Turkey Al -Sheikh,
like, his role in boxing has really changed that.
Like, what they've done with Riyadh Seasons done
is make fights that managers have said, don't
do this. Like, a good one is Martin Boccoli versus,
God, I forget his name, Anderson. Young prospect,
very good fighter, and Bacoli is a fucking big,
dangerous guy. And Bacoli knocked this guy out.
Jared Anderson. Jared Anderson, that's it. Jared
Anderson was undefeated, up -and -coming prospect,
young guy, and Bacoli beat him up. And he really
wasn't there yet. He wasn't ready for that guy
yet. And Bacoli stopped him, and that derailed
this guy's career. But he probably got a big
paycheck. Right. Right. And so what I understand
is there was a lot of people saying that's a
bad fight to make. Don't do it. Yeah, I mean,
the UFC has been, seems to me, from the outside,
quite careful about giving people, like Bo Nickel
and Raul Rosas Jr. and Sean O'Malley, just trying
to get them to build up slow. And even they've,
you know, Raul and Bo Nickel both lost at one
point, right? Well, yeah. Well, Bo Nickel fought
Reiner De Ritter, who's a one champion and a
huge guy for the middleweight division. And Reiner
did a fantastic job of, you know, you don't want
to take Reiner to the ground because he's an
elite. submission athlete and standing up he's
got vicious knees to the body that's like one
of his best weapons and he he fucked Bo up but
that was a good fight for Bo because he came
back from that and fought Adolfo Vieira and looked
fantastic afterwards like he's a real competitor
and a winner and the kind of guy that gets knocked
down like that is going to get back up and be
five times more ferocious and that's what he
is but you know it's one of those things where
it's like Why do you protect some people and
not protect others? Is it because they have better
management? Because sometimes the UFC will tell
you, if you want to fight in the UFC, hey, we've
got to fight. We need an opponent in four days.
Someone dropped out and you're going to fight.
Blank. And that person who you're going to fight
might be a surging contender who's fucking terrifying.
He's putting everybody to sleep. And you have
to make a decision like this is not a good fight
for me at this point in my career. But if I say
no to the UFC, maybe they will never offer me
a fight again. And also you're a fighter and
fighters from everything that I know, you're
going to back yourself. Yes, but you have to
do that intelligently, right? You have to realize
that if you are in a process, and this is the
thing about everyone up until the championship
level, up until a certain point in time when
you plateau, everyone is constantly getting better.
So you get better from training, you get better
from work with your coaches, but you also get
better with experience. And what boxers and boxing
management has always done is make sure that
you get the proper experience and the proper
kinds of opponents are going to test you in certain
ways along the way. So the idea is you give a
fighter a stiff test that they can pass. You
don't give a fighter a chance where they're going
to compete against someone who's... many many
levels above them and they don't have a chance
at all because that can destroy confidence that
could like cause real damage to you can get really
badly hurt and never be the same again there's
certain fights that fighters have where they
are never the same again they get knocked out
by someone and they just aren't the same they
get a flying knee to the face and they're done
they get a head kick and they're done and they
just are never the same guy again you could point
to numerous examples of good fights where there
weren't mismatches but that a fighter was never
the same again It's a dangerous sport. I mean,
it is the most. I mean, it's not the most in
terms of death. Boxing is the most in terms of
death. And I think that's because they have less
options. You know, you can't clinch. You can't
hold on, try to take a fight to the ground. You
can't defend yourself as well. There's also the
thing where you get knocked down and you get
back up. Well, you clear your head momentarily,
but you're still fucked. And now you can't get
out of the way of punches, and now you're really
getting fucked up, and you're getting much more
damage than you would have gotten if you got
clipped that first time and then the guy punched
you a couple times when you were on the ground.
Or you got choked out. Yeah, or you got choked
out is way better. Choked out is way better.
Arm bar, way better. Just tap, and then you're
good. It's also the duration of the fight. Boxing
matches tend to last for a lot longer normally
if they go the duration. They certainly can if
it's 12 minutes, right? You're dealing with 36
minutes of fighting, of getting punched in the
head versus 25 for an MMA fight. The opposite
of that, you would say, though, but they're not
getting slammed on their head. They're not getting
kicked. They're not getting kneed in the face.
They're not getting cut open with elbows. There's
a lot of things that can happen in an MMA fight
that are way worse. But do you also think as
well that when I watch MMA, losses, look, of
course, losses are detrimental and they affect
careers and they knock people back. But they
don't seem to be as consequential as losses in
boxing. In terms of your career? In terms of
your career and the way you're perceived. Right.
Well, I think it's accepted that if you're fighting...
Bunch of different styles, you know, style versus
style. There's always a potential of losing,
especially amongst the elite of the elite. And
you're seeing more of that in MMA at the highest
level. You're not seeing guys avoiding each other
because there's one champion and it's a UFC champion
in that weight class. And you have to fight that
guy if you want the title. Whereas there's the
WBC, the WBO, the IBF, and you have all these
different organizations for boxing. And so you
can be a champion while avoiding the other champion.
Right. Whereas in the UFC, that's the thing that's
exciting is like you get to see Max Holloway,
who's a super dominant guy. Right. And then he
fights Charles Oliveira. Yeah. And it doesn't
go that way. It's crazy. That was so dominant.
Yeah, it was so dominant. And Max Holloway was
a two to one favorite, at least at some points
in the betting line. Yeah. Yeah. And it kind
of, I mean, obviously Hamza Chemaev is a whole
category of its own, but it sort of felt a little
bit that level of domination on the ground. Yeah,
the difference is Holloway was getting dominated
on the feet, too. Oliveira's fucking dangerous
as shit on the feet. I mean, he was better everywhere.
Yeah. And he's bigger. He's a bigger guy. You
could see that in the exchanges. Like, every
time he got a clinch on Max, he just hoisted
him up in the air and slammed him to the ground.
It was so definitive. Right. That was a spectacular
performance by Oliveira. It was. Concern going
into that fight was I'd watched the Matthaus
Gamrot fight with Oliveira. I'm like, Oliveira's
as good, if not better, than he's ever been before.
Gamrot is fucking dangerous, and he's a really
good grappler. And they went to the ground, and
he was lost. Oliveira was just tying him up in
knots. He wasn't able to get anything off on
Oliveira. I'm like, what is Max going to be able
to do on the ground against this guy? And then
when it comes to standing up... Justin Gaethje
said no one ever hit him harder than Oliveira
did. Oliveira, he carries big power in his punches
and big power in his kicks too. He's so reckless
on the feet. Not reckless, I should say, but
so aggressive on the feet because he wants you
to take him to the ground because he's the best
submission artist in the history of the sport.
He has more submissions than anyone ever in the
history of the sport. The thing that you don't
appreciate, you really kindly sorted out tickets
for us in the UFC in New York. And you know these
guys kick hard. You know they punch hard. But
when you're there ringside and you feel the kick.
Oh, yeah, you guys are close. That's the thing
is when you're close, you can hear the slap.
Do you know what happened, though, in New York?
We sat down and then some guy that I didn't initially
recognize came and sat in front of us. And that
was Dylan Dannis. And he kicked off this whole
thing. She sat literally right in front of us.
Oh, you had a front row seat? Yeah, we did. So
the actual fight. Oh, boy. Was that exciting?
Yeah. Well, I just turned to the side and then
there was this just giant brawl right in front
of us all of a sudden. Those are very unfortunate.
Yeah. I don't like those. Yeah. No, me neither.
It was crazy. It was crazy. Well, Dylan Dennis,
he knows how to get a lot of attention. Yeah.
And I will say this. I don't agree with his behavior,
but unlike a lot of online trolls, that guy actually
does it in real life. Do you know what I mean?
Right. He actually, I'm like, I don't like you.
Dylan can fight. He can fight. He's a very good
submission artist. He's a Marcelo Garcia black
belt. He's very legit on the ground. Conor McGregor
brought him in for training, like for a lot of
his camps. Yeah. Are you excited for the White
House card? That looks really good. Yes. It sounds
crazy. I know it's going to be very high security
and high stress and weird to have a fight at
the White House in the middle of a fucking war.
I would hope the war will be sorted out by June,
but quite honestly, I'm not confident that that's
going to be the case. No. Yeah. So that would
be weird, having this very high -profile event
where everybody's in one place at one time right
there. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. So you're
not excited to be there? Well, that seems like
you're asking for... Holy shit. I hadn't thought
of that at all. How could you not think of that?
Because I'm not going to be there. You're the
one that has to think of it. I was just like,
this is a great lineup. I look forward to the
fights. Yeah. Because if you want to talk about
Hidden Heart, I mean, Ilya Teporia, fuck me.
That's when you think, like, Max Holloway and
Charles Oliveira. Charles Oliveira dominates
Max Holloway. And then you realize, like, how
quickly Ilya Teporia... starched Charles Oliveira
and you go how good is that guy right he's a
once in a generation talent like he's he knocked
out in three fights three all -time greats Volkanovski
and then he knocks out Max Holloway and then
he knocks out Charles Oliveira In two different
weight classes, he knocks out three all -time
greats, three fights in a row. And he's just
definitive, starching of these guys. Like, he's
a once -in -a -generation talent. And think how
good Volk, how dominant Volk is. Like, how good
he looked against Diego Lopez. How good Max Holloway
looks all the time, especially in striking exchanges.
Max is a very hard guy to hit, and Ilya just...
dominated him. He's fucking spooky good and insanely
confident. Insanely charismatic. Do you think
part of it as well is just technique is so important?
It's the most important thing because you look
at Usyk when he came up against Fury and the
first fight, I didn't give Usyk a prayer. Usyk
is basically a glorified cruiserweight. And you
look at Tyson Fury, 6 '8", undefeated. He comes
from a traveler background. This is a guy who
was taught to box from the age of three. They
taught Traveller kids. They all taught how to
fight. They know how to fight. They know how
to throw punches. Boxing is in their blood. And
you just saw that he was so technically supreme
that Fury had no answer and lost consecutive
fights against him. Yeah, and then look at what
he did to Dubois. Usyk is special. I mean, he's
basically a gigantic Lomachenko. Like, unbelievable
movement. And he was trained by Lomachenko's
father as well. Same trainer. Yeah. I mean, there's
just people that are better than everybody else.
And it seems like Ilya Teporia is one of those
guys. He's just weirdly better than everybody
else. And he can take it, too. Like, one of the
fights that he had, so when he was competing
at featherweight, he took a fight at lightweight
against Jai Herbert. And Jai Herbert in the first
round caught him with a perfect head kick, rocked
him, dropped him. And Ilya Teporia wound up grabbing
his legs, taking him down. They fought on the
ground. And then the second round, Ilya just
put him into the shadow realm. He hit him with
a combination against the cage where he hit him
with, I think it was a left hook to the body
and a right overhand that just spun his head
around. It was wild. I mean, face first, face
planted. He's got freakish power. So it is technique.
His technique is flawless. His technique in the
grappling is flawless. Oh, is he good at grappling
as well? He's phenomenal at grappling. Really?
That's his main base. He started off as a grappler.
Really? Yeah. I didn't even know that. Oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah. And his early fights are just taking
him down. Because you don't see that much nowadays.
He just fucking knocks everyone out, basically,
right? He's just... It's his mind. More than
anything his confidence is real. It's not bluster
like he's really sick He celebrates the fights
the day before the fight. He has a celebration
of his victory He did that against Charles Olivera.
They all went to dinner. They're making toasts
Celebrating his victory the night before the
fight itself That's a high -risk strategy. It's
a crazy thing. Meanwhile, he goes out and knocks
him out in the first round. Who fucking knocks
out Charles Oliveira in the first round like
that? Especially now, like the Charles Oliveira
of today. That's crazy. It's many things, but
the mind that allowed him to get so elite at
grappling also allowed him to get so elite at
striking. It's setups and traps. It's not just
throwing wild bombs. It's defense. His defense
is fantastic. You saw that in the Josh Emmett
fight. Josh Emmett, as far as one -punch power,
he rivals everybody. You saw that fight where
he knocked Bryce Mitchell out with a punch to
the forehead. That guy hits so fucking hard.
And when you look at it, it makes sense. I mean,
he's a fucking tank. And Ilya Deporia just slipped
away from everything, slipped away from everything,
and then eventually just put it on him. He's
great everywhere, man. He's great on the ground.
He's great standing up. And more importantly,
it's his mind. He doesn't make mistakes. He's
just a force in there. He's the new breed. With
every generation, every generation builds on
the success of the previous generation. They
all learn from the elites of the past. He's our
version of what's possible now. Wow. He's that
good. I was hoping. I was hoping for the White
House card Dana would do something and pull Jon
Jones out of the bag. I was hoping that as well.
Yeah, I was hoping that as well. That would have
been really special. Yeah, I don't know why that
didn't happen. I don't know. I mean, there's
Jon's version. There's the UFC's version. I don't
know what was the stumbling block there. Well,
I think it's fair to say him and Dana don't get
on very well. I don't think it's that bad. They
certainly could make a deal. I don't think it's
as bad as, say, Francis Ngannou. The Francis
Ngannou situation, Dana does not like him at
all and won't do any business with him, period.
Because that would be the fight, Francis Ngannou
versus Jon Jones. Oh my goodness. Oh my word,
that would be good. But also Alex Pereira versus
Jon Jones would be the fight as well. A title
doesn't mean anything. You could do the BMF heavyweight
version. It doesn't matter. Like, just those
two guys fighting. I mean, that would be—titles
are irrelevant when you're dealing with the all
-time great in Jon Jones, the greatest of all
time. And then Alex Pereira, a generational talent
who's the most devastating striker we've ever
seen inside the sport. I mean, as you look at
Ilya, I mean, Ilya's phenomenal, but Ilya's,
like, more complete as a fighter. But Alex is
freaky. Did I ever tell you what Mark Goddard
said when he fought Khalil Rountree? So he beats—
Khalil Rountree up, and they stop the fight,
and then Mark Goddard grabs me. As I go into
the octagon, he goes, the sound it makes when
he hits them is ungodly. That's what he said.
He goes, mate, I've been doing this for 20 years.
He goes, I've seen it all. He goes, it's different.
The sound, the impact is like he's a freak, man.
That guy, he's a physical freak. I mean, he's
a real genuine Amazon warrior who's just built
different than other people. You know, I'm sure
you've seen him punch that machine. Yeah. Where
he gets like 190. Francis Ngannou got like 129.
What? And he got 190. Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah,
no, it's freak power. I did not enjoy watching
the end of that Khalil Rountree fight. I'm not
going to lie. That was rough. And Khalil Rountree
is like a fucking animal. He's a warrior. He's
just a warrior. I mean, he knew going into that
fight, he was willing to go out on his shield.
He wasn't afraid. And he went after him. He went
after him. He did. But the consequences of getting
hit. And then Alex was starting to tune him up
at the end where he was leaning away from shots
and then countering and leaning away from shots
and countering. He was in his flow. state and
that's where it got real spooky because Khalil
became like a sitting target and with each shot
his ability to get out of the way diminished
with each kick that landed his ability to move
diminished and it got spooky yeah and then it
becomes a dilemma for the referee yeah like when
do you actually step in because look there's
a consent for the fighter to be there and to
take part in the fight, but there comes a point
where you have to step in for the fighter's own
health. Yeah, there comes a point where you realize
they can't defend themselves anymore, and they're
getting just tuned up, and that was the end of
the fight. I mean, that was the right time to
stop it, but it was a hard watch. It was, but
then you get fights like Usman versus Leon Edwards,
where he's getting smashed for five rounds, and
he just fucking pulls a kick out at the last
minute and knocks him out. But he wasn't getting
smashed. Not the way Khalil Rowntree was at the
end. He was getting beat. He was getting beat,
yeah. But he wasn't in danger of getting stopped
or really hurt badly. But that's why we all watch
it, because it's that knowledge that anything
can happen. You know, Hakeem Rahman versus Lennox
Lewis. No one gave Hakeem a prayer when he went
in. Lennox is a supreme fighter, Olympic gold
medalist, one of the greatest to ever do it.
And then that one punch he hit flushed on Lennox's
jaw and he was out. I remember watching it going,
I mean, no one saw that. Especially in the heavyweight
division. One punch with those guys. Yeah. It's
why I really like it because in our world, like,
you know, if I do a debate, everyone talks shit
to each other. And like, you know, everyone talks
shit, then they go have a debate, everyone still
talks shit afterwards. In combat sports, everyone
talks shit and then you find out. Right. Yeah.
It's very definitive. You win or you lose. It's
not subject to other people's interpretations.
Because like you'll see that in debates too.
Like I'll see a debate where I think like for
you, for example, well, you clearly won the debate.
And then I'll see people say you got owned. Right.
And all the people who agree with me say I dominated.
And all the people who agree with the other guy
say he dominated. Yeah. And you'll see these
pundits. And that's a weird. economy, right?
There's a weird economy of commentators on other
people's exchanges. And that is a weird sport.
It's a weird... You've made loads of careers.
There's loads of people. Joe Rogan said this
on his podcast. That's the entire content. They
work for me. They don't even know it. They do.
They make me more famous. Right. You're getting
all the kickbacks. Also, you get to see what
kind of a person they are, right? And they're
silly, bitchy people. You go like, well, those
silly, bitchy people don't like him. Or maybe
someone who you agree with doesn't like me. Like,
oh, I don't like him anymore. Yeah. Which is
fine. But it's like that economy of commenting
on other people constantly. problem with that
is you've always put yourself in a position of
an outsider. Like me, when it comes to combat
sports, I'm a commentator. That's all I do. I
can't fight. I'm 58. I'm not going in there.
I'm always going to be in this position of only
being an observer and a commentator. For those
people that are commentating on these debates,
a lot of them probably fancy themselves intellectual
gladiators. They just don't get the opportunity
to. do it and occasionally they do and they usually
get trounced yeah because really they're not
that good which is why they're commenting in
the first place and why they have these fucking
stupid hot takes well you know the frustrating
thing for me with the debates nowadays is how
few people want to have an actual discussion
right it was so refreshing we last time we came
here we had dave smith on our show i don't know
if you saw that one yeah i did yeah we loved
it it was great we loved it and dave enjoyed
it and And, you know, it was weird because we
obviously have lots of different perspectives
on things. But afterwards, a lot of people were
like, oh, I can't believe you had Dave on. And
I said to all of them, listen, Dave's only crime
is that he has a different opinion to you. Because
apart from that, he comes in, he shows up, he's
super nice, he's respectful, he's polite. He
doesn't do any dirty tricks. He doesn't argue
about the definitions of words for 10 minutes.
Right. He just goes, here's my opinion. Here's
your opinion. Let's discuss. Yeah. And that's
how conversations should happen. Right. But so
much of the debate stuff now is not people aren't
discussing the issues. They've just like decided
you're a bad person. And that's what they're
trying to achieve. They're trying to get a cheap
laugh from the audience that they're playing
to who's not even in the room because they know
their retard followers are going to watch it
online afterwards and be like, oh, he owned them.
But where did we get to? Well, it's just. I mean,
it's just some people that are doing that, you
know, and those people, that's all they can do.
That's why they do it that way. Right. You know,
if they were really intellectually compelling
and if they were like smart people, like I don't
want enemies. Like if I can have a sane, rational,
peaceful discussion with someone where we disagree
with something, I would greatly prefer that than
have someone who's insulting me and I'm insulting
them. We're trying to like get off on each other.
Like why? Yeah. I'm busy. Yeah. I have things
to do. Like I don't need. that kind of bullshit
in my life. And I don't mind when someone disagrees
with me. I think it's healthy. I also want to
know why you think the way you think, genuinely.
You know what I see as an opportunity? Because
we all have blind spots. We all have blind spots.
We all have biases. I don't care who you are,
how smart you are. You have biases. You have
blind spots. Not me, mate. I know everything.
But when someone goes, well, actually, Francis,
you say this, but what about this? Have you thought
about this? Have you read about this? I'm like,
no. Maybe you should. Right. And maybe you actually
maybe won't change your opinion, but certainly
have a more nuanced opinion. True. Yeah. But
also we're talking about shit that actually matters,
you know, and it deserves to be taken seriously.
Yeah. Well, the answer is don't engage with those
certain people. Yeah. You know, I'm learning
that. Yeah, we were having a conversation about
one particular individual where I'm like, why?
Don't bother. I can't believe you. I didn't say
anything about that discussion because I was
just like, I don't want anyone to waste their
fucking time watching it. It was awful. I'm fascinated
by that too, though, because I'm fascinated by
these people that are doing that, where they're
just trying to win and use tricks and be sneaky.
Because they think of discourse in a completely
different way. Right. They think about the whole
thing in a completely different way. They're
completely ideologically captured. The place
they're starting from is I want to prove this
to be correct, not I want to know why this person
believes it to be incorrect and I want to find
out if maybe we have common ground and maybe
they know something I don't or maybe I know something
they don't. Let's find out. You know what I really
want? And Constance and I have talked about it
a lot. I want somebody on the left to come out.
and be brilliant at debating and go to people
on the right, well, you say this and you say
this, but actually, let's look at this, let's
look at that, and be a genuine intellectual force.
And what I despair of is I haven't seen anyone
be from the left like that in basically a generation.
I think the generation that you're talking about
has been captured by some certain narratives
that you have to agree to that aren't rational.
So as soon as you do that and you... align yourself
with this particular ideology, you're already
saying I'm willing to believe some shit that
doesn't make any sense at all because this is
the only way to be accepted by my tribe. That
intellectually compromises you. And that also,
I think, humiliates you in a certain way. It
puts you in a position where you're saying something
that you know can't be true. So you set up blind
spots. Do you think they know it's not true?
I think there's got to be a part of them that
realizes there's a good argument that it's not
true. Especially when it comes to transgender
stuff or border stuff. There's certain things
where there's no real good faith argument that
you should have an open border and allow fucking
any psychopath to come across the border and
invade your community. That seems crazy. That
seems crazy. If you understand anything about
human nature and the nature of the world and
the level of poverty and crime, that exists outside
of the United States, particularly in third world
countries where you're just allowing people.
I thought you were talking about Canada there,
Joe. I'm all for them evading. They should come
over. They should bail on their country until
it gets better. I just ask you because I would
find it so hard to go on stage in front of, well,
what is now hundreds of thousands of people by
the time it goes on the internet, right? And
just vigorously defend something I didn't. Well,
that's because you're smart. And I think the
problem is a lot of these people aren't really
intelligent. What they are is a person who has
a good vocabulary, who's acquired a certain amount
of technique and skill involved in talking really
fast and spouting things that they've seen online,
a bunch of narratives. Like one of the things
that people love to do is if you're talking to
anyone that's on the right, they want to say,
you know, you support us. 34 -time convicted
felon. There's a lot of things that they like
to say. There's techniques involved. Instead
of discussing, anybody that looked at the actual
Trump case, if you're rational and you're on
the left, you say, that's a crazy case. There's
no way that should be a felony. It's not a felony.
There are 34 different misdemeanors. And it's
also, it's past the statute of limitations. This
is a craziest, egregious misuse of justice. And
the scary thing is, if someone on the right gets
in, they decide to do that to someone on the
left. Like, you got to... put your foot down,
stop that from happening. The Russia, Russia,
Russia stuff. All that stuff, the Russiagate
stuff. That's kind of crazy that someone on the
left doesn't call that out and say, hey guys,
this is fucking dangerous because if you're lying
and you're having intelligence agencies lie and
you're having people lie on television and you're
just accepting that, why, because it's your side?
They're supporting your side? That's why. That's
crazy. That's why. And I find that very strange
because what they do is they pivot to that. which
is not relevant to the conversation we're having.
We're talking about, you know, is it right to
do these strikes on Iran or is it this or is
it that? You know, what's the situation in the
Middle East or whatever? How does bringing up
Trump's convictions or otherwise change that?
It doesn't affect that conversation. Or the border
or the trans thing or any of the other things.
And that's the thing is like, can we just argue
the fucking point? I think at a certain point
in time, you're going to have to choose real
opponents. It's like a Jake Paul thing. But see,
I want the real opponents. But where are they?
And we've had people on the show where it's like
we had this woman from the Guilty Feminist podcast.
And she came on and we gave her 40 minutes. She
basically laid out her whole vision. And it was
respectful and polite. And it was a great conversation,
actually. The moment I said, well. you know,
you've been speaking for this time. Here's some
of the things that I see that don't make sense
in my head. Can you help me out? Immediately
goes personal. Immediately. Yeah. And that's
what Francis is saying. Like, I'd love to see
people who have an ability to argue the point.
Yeah. And that's what Dave does. He argues the
point and that's either persuasive to you or
it isn't. But I think the problem is their point
is not very good. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is
the problem. Yeah. And so you have to go personal.
You have to attack people. You have to use ad
hominems. It's the only way you can get anything
off. And then you try to get that person emotional
and trap them. So why don't they change their
opinion then? It's a good question because if
you're ideologically captured, especially if
you're on the left, like it's a very clear ideology
and there's like real blowback for deviating
from it. Yeah. As we know, right? Yeah. Because
the moment you say, well, you're no longer on
the left anymore. Right, right. Well, a lot of
people have been kicked out of it. Yeah. A lot
of people have been pushed into some weird quasi
-homeless land. Well, that's how we all ended
up as like right -wing. It was like, fuck off
with this shit. Yeah, fuck off with this shit.
You know, 20 years ago, all the stuff that we
talk about, it wasn't just like not right -wing.
No one questioned. Do you remember 25 years ago
people running around going, we need an open
border? Right. Right? Or like you can change
your sex by just going like abracadabra. Right.
No one said that. Right. And so we went right
wing for like going, that's crazy. I know. You
know, the most bizarre thing is watching all
these kind of left -wing lesbian feminists be
described as right -wing and getting kicked out.
JK Rowling is an answer. Martina Navratilova.
Fuck my life. There's a journalist called Julie
Bindle, used to write The Guardian, one of the
most left -wing journalists, and she's lesbian,
and she criticised, like, and she was like the
trans movement. That was it. Out the door. It
doesn't matter what you've done before. It doesn't
matter you've done all this incredible work with
women and females. prisons well it's because
it's a cult i mean it's essentially like a religious
ideology like they they will not take any heretics
like anybody that deviates from whatever their
doctrine is like you're out you're out forever
And that scares people. So that's one of the
reasons why they're willing to comply and follow
some of this goofy shit and say no one's illegal
on stolen land. What's interesting is it doesn't
happen on the right nearly the same way. Like
you can see it now. The right is engaged in a
fierce debate internally. And people fucking
argue and they hash it out. And then they go
have a beer afterwards. I think they're doing
it just the same way. Just the same? I think
it's a human thing. Yeah, I think there's people
on the right that do it just the same way. There's
people that call people out for not being MAGA
enough, you know? Yeah. It's just like right
now the whole thing's in turmoil, whereas there's
not really the same kind of turmoil on the left
where there's internal debate. The turmoil on
the left is the left. Versus the right. Yeah.
The turmoil on the right right now. I think there's
a lot of people right versus right. And they're
trying to find out like. And I think there's
a lot of people that don't believe what they're
saying either. They're just trying to find a
thing that aligns with the biggest audience.
I think that's definitely happening. I also think,
though, internal debate within a big, broad church
movement is a good thing. Because what you're
arguing about is like, what is the right direction?
Yep. You know? Yeah. And I do think that is more
healthy. I think working out what it is that,
like, whatever, if you're on the right, we believe.
I'm not on the right, but as I see that, I do
think that's a healthy thing to do because you're
arguing about the direction of that movement.
And I think that's much healthier than what happens
on the left where it's just like, well, if you
don't agree with this wacky idea that's far,
far out there, then you're no longer part of
this. But I think the good thing about these
debates is it exposes that. And anybody who's
objective, especially anybody that is, you know,
a swing voter or anybody who's in the middle
of all this, which is a lot of people, a lot
of people. Most people, I think. Right. Yeah.
Most people are kind of in the middle and most
most political issues. They get to see how crazy
some of the shit is and it makes them less likely
to follow. You know, but it's also as well from
a neutral perspective. And I mentioned the point
about I want a strong left. I want a strong left
which has got good ideas about how to tackle
things which are really important, like inequality,
like the cost of living. How do we make it that...
people can actually have a better standard of
life, where if a woman wants to stay at home
with her kids, she can do that, which they then
have to go out and have to work and put the kids
in daycare, which then leads to a whole host
of problems. How can we have a better world for
ordinary people, which is what the left always
used to be? We need a strong left to then challenge
the right so that the center becomes a more fertile
ground. And if we don't have that, if we have
these crazy loons on the left, then what we have
is a right which will come to dominate, which
I don't think is good for society as a whole.
I'm going to be honest with you. No, it's never
good if one party, left or right, is completely
dominant. It's not good. You need checks, right?
And the right has its share of crazies too, as
we've been talking about. 100%. Praise Jesus.
We've got to wrap this up. Gentlemen, I love
you guys. Very quickly. Oh, your book. Yeah,
I've got a book. It's called Uneducated, My Life
as a Teacher and Why You Should Never Become
One and Never is in Bold. An inspiring story.
Francis Foster. All right. I love you guys. It's
always great to see you. Thank you very much,
man. Bye, everybody.