WEBVTT 00:00:01.610 --> 00:00:04.730 Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #2044. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), Silicon Valley Ethics, and the Future of OpenAI Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan 00:00:04.730 --> 00:00:08.150 Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan Podcast by 00:00:08.150 --> 00:00:14.189 night. All day. Hello, Sam. What's happening? 00:00:14.490 --> 00:00:16.109 Not much. Thanks for coming in here. Appreciate 00:00:16.109 --> 00:00:18.929 it. Thanks for having me. So, what have you done? 00:00:20.289 --> 00:00:22.730 Like ever? No, I mean, what have you done with 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:28.489 AI? I mean, it's one of the things about this 00:00:28.489 --> 00:00:31.769 is, I mean, I think everyone is fascinated by 00:00:31.769 --> 00:00:35.390 it. I mean, everyone is absolutely blown away 00:00:35.390 --> 00:00:38.890 at the current capability and wondering what 00:00:38.890 --> 00:00:40.649 the potential for the future is and whether or 00:00:40.649 --> 00:00:45.950 not that's a good thing. I think it's going to 00:00:45.950 --> 00:00:48.009 be a great thing, but I think it's not going 00:00:48.009 --> 00:00:50.890 to be all a great thing. And that is where I 00:00:50.890 --> 00:00:55.479 think... And that's where all of the complexity 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:57.500 comes in. For people, it's not this like clean 00:00:57.500 --> 00:00:59.259 story of we're going to do this and it's all 00:00:59.259 --> 00:01:00.859 going to be great. It's we're going to do this. 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:02.780 It's going to be net great, but it's going to 00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:05.799 be like a technological revolution. It's going 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:09.180 to be a societal revolution. And those always 00:01:09.180 --> 00:01:12.780 come with change. And even if it's like net wonderful, 00:01:13.060 --> 00:01:14.239 you know, there's things we're going to lose 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:16.459 along the way. Some kinds of jobs, some kinds 00:01:16.459 --> 00:01:18.000 of parts of our way of life, some parts of the 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:22.120 way we live are going to change or go away. Eat 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:24.340 no matter how tremendous the upside is there, 00:01:24.420 --> 00:01:27.019 and I believe it will be tremendously good. There's 00:01:27.019 --> 00:01:28.159 a lot of stuff we've got to navigate through 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:34.659 to make sure. That's a complicated thing for 00:01:34.659 --> 00:01:36.260 anyone to wrap their heads around, and there's 00:01:36.260 --> 00:01:38.840 deep and super understandable emotions around 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.340 that. That's a very honest answer, that it's 00:01:42.340 --> 00:01:46.319 not all going to be good. But it seems inevitable 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.340 at this point. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely 00:01:49.340 --> 00:01:52.680 inevitable. My view of the world, you know, when 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:54.659 you're like a kid in school, you learn about 00:01:54.659 --> 00:01:56.560 this technological revolution and then that one 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:58.900 and then that one. And my view of the world now 00:01:58.900 --> 00:02:00.939 sort of looking backwards and forwards is that 00:02:00.939 --> 00:02:04.000 this is like one long technological revolution. 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:08.099 And we had, sure, like first we had to figure 00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:10.509 out agriculture so that we had the... resources 00:02:10.509 --> 00:02:12.389 and time to figure out how to build machines. 00:02:12.530 --> 00:02:14.449 Then we got this industrial revolution, and that 00:02:14.449 --> 00:02:16.210 made us learn about a lot of stuff, a lot of 00:02:16.210 --> 00:02:18.430 other scientific discovery too. Let us do the 00:02:18.430 --> 00:02:20.689 computer revolution, and that's now letting us, 00:02:20.729 --> 00:02:22.949 as we scale up to these massive systems, do the 00:02:22.949 --> 00:02:25.689 AI revolution. But it really is just one long 00:02:25.689 --> 00:02:29.629 story of humans discovering science and technology 00:02:29.629 --> 00:02:32.430 and co -evolving with it. And I think it's the 00:02:32.430 --> 00:02:34.430 most exciting story of all time. I think it's 00:02:34.430 --> 00:02:37.550 how we get to this world of abundance. And although... 00:02:39.310 --> 00:02:41.210 although we do have these things to navigate 00:02:41.210 --> 00:02:43.330 and there will be these downsides, if you think 00:02:43.330 --> 00:02:46.030 about what it means for the world and for people's 00:02:46.030 --> 00:02:49.370 quality of lives, if we can get to a world where 00:02:49.370 --> 00:02:53.729 the cost of intelligence and the abundance that 00:02:53.729 --> 00:02:58.370 comes with that, the cost dramatically falls, 00:02:58.430 --> 00:03:00.650 the abundance goes way up. I think we'll do the 00:03:00.650 --> 00:03:02.469 same thing with energy. And I think those are 00:03:02.469 --> 00:03:04.689 the two sort of key inputs to everything else 00:03:04.689 --> 00:03:06.990 we want. So if we can have abundant and cheap 00:03:06.990 --> 00:03:09.759 energy and intelligence, That will transform 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.699 people's lives largely for the better. And I 00:03:12.699 --> 00:03:14.840 think it's going to, in the same way that if 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.340 we could go back now 500 years and look at someone's 00:03:17.340 --> 00:03:18.860 life, we'd say, well, there's some great things, 00:03:18.939 --> 00:03:20.639 but they didn't have this, they didn't have that. 00:03:20.659 --> 00:03:22.060 Can you believe they didn't have modern medicine? 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:24.340 That's what people are going to look back at 00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:27.719 us like, but in 50 years. When you think about 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:31.840 the people that currently rely on jobs that AI 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:34.979 will replace. When you think about whether it's 00:03:34.979 --> 00:03:38.280 truck drivers or automation workers, people that 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:43.240 work in factory assembly lines, what, if anything, 00:03:43.500 --> 00:03:46.939 what strategies can be put to mitigate the negative 00:03:46.939 --> 00:03:50.819 downsides of those jobs being eliminated by AI? 00:03:51.620 --> 00:03:57.020 So I'll talk about some general thoughts, but 00:03:57.020 --> 00:04:01.419 I find making very specific. difficult because 00:04:01.419 --> 00:04:04.699 the way the technology goes has been so different 00:04:04.699 --> 00:04:07.939 than even my own intuitions, or certainly my 00:04:07.939 --> 00:04:10.360 own intuitions. Maybe we should stop there and 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:14.780 back up a little. What were your initial thoughts? 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.519 If you had asked me 10 years ago, I would have 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:21.600 said, first, AI is going to come for blue -collar 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.480 labor, basically. It's going to drive trucks 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:27.160 and do factory work, and it'll handle heavy machinery. 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:32.540 Then maybe after that, it'll do some kinds of 00:04:32.540 --> 00:04:36.839 cognitive labor, but it won't be off doing what 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:38.779 I think of personally as the really hard stuff. 00:04:38.860 --> 00:04:41.500 It won't be off proving new mathematical theorems. 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:45.699 It won't be off discovering new science. It won't 00:04:45.699 --> 00:04:48.839 be off writing code. And then eventually, maybe, 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.079 but maybe last of all, maybe never, because human 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:54.819 creativity is this magic special thing. Last 00:04:54.819 --> 00:04:57.740 of all, it'll come for the creative jobs. That's 00:04:57.740 --> 00:05:01.920 what I would have said. Now, A, it looks to me 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.019 like, and for a while, AI is much better at doing 00:05:05.019 --> 00:05:07.759 tasks than doing jobs. It can do these little 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:10.420 pieces super well, but sometimes it goes off 00:05:10.420 --> 00:05:12.980 the rails. It can't keep very long coherence. 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:17.000 So people are instead just able to do their existing 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.199 jobs way more productively, but you really still 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:22.160 need the human there today. And then B, it's 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.100 going exactly the other direction. Could do the 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:26.319 creative work first. Stuff like coding second. 00:05:26.660 --> 00:05:29.620 They can do things like other kinds of cognitive 00:05:29.620 --> 00:05:32.500 labor third. And we're the furthest away from 00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:37.240 like humanoid robots. So back to the initial 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:42.939 question. If we do have something that completely 00:05:42.939 --> 00:05:46.339 eliminates factory workers, completely eliminates 00:05:46.339 --> 00:05:50.100 truck drivers, delivery drivers, things along 00:05:50.100 --> 00:05:53.639 those lines. That creates this massive vacuum 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:58.220 in our society. So I think there's things that 00:05:58.220 --> 00:06:02.680 we're going to do that are good to do but not 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:04.680 sufficient. So I think at some point we will 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:07.339 do something like a UBI or some other kind of 00:06:07.339 --> 00:06:11.060 like very long -term unemployment insurance something. 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:14.720 But we'll have some way of giving people like 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:18.089 redistributing money in society. as a cushion 00:06:18.089 --> 00:06:20.110 for people as people figure out the new jobs. 00:06:20.529 --> 00:06:24.730 And maybe I should touch on that. I'm not a believer 00:06:24.730 --> 00:06:27.470 at all that there won't be lots of new jobs. 00:06:27.589 --> 00:06:30.949 I think human creativity, desire for status, 00:06:31.170 --> 00:06:33.750 wanting different ways to compete, invent new 00:06:33.750 --> 00:06:36.110 things, feel part of a community, feel valued, 00:06:36.290 --> 00:06:39.430 that's not going to go anywhere. People have 00:06:39.430 --> 00:06:41.889 worried about that forever. What happens is we 00:06:41.889 --> 00:06:45.579 get better tools and... We just invent new things 00:06:45.579 --> 00:06:47.339 and more amazing things to do. And there's a 00:06:47.339 --> 00:06:49.819 big universe out there. And I think, I mean that 00:06:49.819 --> 00:06:52.879 like literally in that there's like space is 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.759 really big, but also there's just so much stuff 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.920 we can all do if we do get to this world of abundant 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:01.060 intelligence where you can sort of just think 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:07.180 of a new idea and it gets created. But again, 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:10.300 that doesn't, to the point we started with, that 00:07:10.300 --> 00:07:12.860 doesn't provide like great solace to people. 00:07:13.230 --> 00:07:16.430 who are losing their jobs today. So saying there's 00:07:16.430 --> 00:07:18.269 going to be this great indefinite stuff in the 00:07:18.269 --> 00:07:20.329 future. People are like, what are we doing today? 00:07:20.769 --> 00:07:24.910 So, you know, I think we will as a society do 00:07:24.910 --> 00:07:28.310 things like UBI and other ways of redistribution. 00:07:28.569 --> 00:07:30.329 But I don't think that gets at the core of what 00:07:30.329 --> 00:07:32.589 people want. I think what people want is like 00:07:32.589 --> 00:07:36.730 agency, self -determination, the ability to play 00:07:36.730 --> 00:07:38.689 a role in architecting the future along with 00:07:38.689 --> 00:07:41.509 the rest of society, the ability to express themselves 00:07:41.509 --> 00:07:49.759 and create something meaningful to them and also 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.279 i think a lot of people work jobs they hate and 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:54.779 i think there's we as a society are always a 00:07:54.779 --> 00:07:56.339 little bit confused about whether we want to 00:07:56.339 --> 00:08:02.600 work more or work less but but somehow that we 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:05.360 all get to do something meaningful and we all 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.819 get to play our role in driving the future forward 00:08:08.819 --> 00:08:11.819 that's really important and what i hope is as 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:13.920 those truck driving long -haul truck driving 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.300 jobs go away, which people have been wrong about 00:08:17.300 --> 00:08:19.240 predicting how fast that's going to happen, but 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:22.199 it's going to happen. We figure out not just 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:27.720 a way to solve the economic problem by giving 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:32.000 people the equivalent of money every month, but 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.639 that there's a way that, and we have a lot of 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:36.559 ideas about this, there's a way that we share 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:40.379 ownership and decision -making over the future. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:45.500 The thing I say a lot about AGI is that everyone 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:48.019 realizes we're going to have to share the benefits 00:08:48.019 --> 00:08:51.360 of that, but we also have to share the decision 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:53.580 -making over it and access to the system itself. 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:56.220 I'd be more excited about a world where we say, 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:58.860 rather than give everybody on Earth one -eighth 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:01.639 billionth of the AGI money, which we should do 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:06.659 that to, we say, you get a one -eighth billionth 00:09:06.659 --> 00:09:11.419 slice of the system. Sell it to somebody else. 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.080 You can sell it to a company. You can pool it 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:14.500 with other people. You can use it for whatever 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:16.720 creative pursuit you want. You can use it to 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.980 figure out how to start some new business. And 00:09:19.980 --> 00:09:23.340 with that, you get sort of like a voting right 00:09:23.340 --> 00:09:25.220 over how this is all going to be used. And so 00:09:25.220 --> 00:09:27.580 the better the AGI gets, the more your little 00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:30.340 one eight billionth ownership is worth to you. 00:09:30.860 --> 00:09:32.899 We were joking around the other day on the podcast 00:09:32.899 --> 00:09:35.799 where I was saying that what we need is an AI 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:41.190 government. We should have an AI president. Just 00:09:41.190 --> 00:09:43.330 make all the decisions? Yeah, have something 00:09:43.330 --> 00:09:46.309 that's completely unbiased, absolutely rational, 00:09:46.509 --> 00:09:50.549 has the accumulated knowledge of the entire human 00:09:50.549 --> 00:09:54.850 history at its disposal, including all knowledge 00:09:54.850 --> 00:09:57.889 of psychology and psychological study, including 00:09:57.889 --> 00:10:01.470 UBI, because that comes with a host of pitfalls 00:10:01.470 --> 00:10:04.769 and issues that people have with it. So I'll 00:10:04.769 --> 00:10:07.149 say something there. I think we're still very 00:10:07.149 --> 00:10:10.370 far away from a system that is... capable enough 00:10:10.370 --> 00:10:14.169 and reliable enough that any of us would want 00:10:14.169 --> 00:10:15.529 that. But I'll tell you something I love about 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:18.889 that. Someday, let's say that thing gets built. 00:10:19.049 --> 00:10:21.669 The fact that it can go around and talk to every 00:10:21.669 --> 00:10:24.669 person on earth, understand their exact preferences 00:10:24.669 --> 00:10:27.250 at a very deep level, how they think about this 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:28.929 issue and that one and how they balance the trade 00:10:28.929 --> 00:10:31.049 -offs and what they want, and then understand 00:10:31.049 --> 00:10:36.570 all of that and collectively optimize for the 00:10:36.570 --> 00:10:39.330 collective preferences of humanity. or of citizens 00:10:39.330 --> 00:10:42.669 of the U .S., that's awesome. As long as it's 00:10:42.669 --> 00:10:46.289 not co -opted, right? Our government currently 00:10:46.289 --> 00:10:49.269 is co -opted. That's for sure. We know for sure 00:10:49.269 --> 00:10:51.269 that our government is heavily influenced by 00:10:51.269 --> 00:10:55.909 special interests. If we could have an artificial 00:10:55.909 --> 00:10:59.029 intelligence government that has no influence, 00:10:59.309 --> 00:11:01.529 nothing has influence on it. What a fascinating 00:11:01.529 --> 00:11:04.629 idea. It's possible. And I think it might be 00:11:04.629 --> 00:11:07.909 the only way. where you're going to get completely 00:11:07.909 --> 00:11:12.750 objective, the absolute most intelligent decision. 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:17.360 for virtually every problem, every dilemma that 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:19.740 we face currently in society. Would you truly 00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:22.620 be comfortable handing over final decision -making 00:11:22.620 --> 00:11:24.460 and say, all right, AI, you got it from here? 00:11:24.460 --> 00:11:27.899 No, but I'm not comfortable doing that with anybody. 00:11:28.139 --> 00:11:32.100 I was uncomfortable with the Patriot Act. I'm 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:35.179 uncomfortable with many decisions that are being 00:11:35.179 --> 00:11:39.100 made. It's just there's so much obvious evidence 00:11:39.100 --> 00:11:41.820 that... Decisions that are being made are not 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:43.639 being made in the best interest of the overall 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.460 well of the people. It's being made in the decisions 00:11:46.460 --> 00:11:52.059 of whatever gigantic corporations that have donated 00:11:52.059 --> 00:11:54.759 to and whatever the military industrial complex 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.980 and pharmaceutical industrial complex and just 00:11:57.980 --> 00:12:01.519 the money. That's really what we know today, 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.679 that money has a massive influence on our society 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.240 and the choices that get made and the overall 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.159 good or bad for the population. Yeah, I have 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:13.100 no disagreement at all that the current system 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:15.919 is super broken, not working for people, super 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.940 corrupt, and for sure, like, unbelievably run 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:25.700 by money. And I think there is a way to do a 00:12:25.700 --> 00:12:30.460 better job than that with AI in some way. But 00:12:30.460 --> 00:12:33.159 this might just be like a factor of sitting with 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:34.899 the systems all day and watching all of the ways 00:12:34.899 --> 00:12:37.610 they fail. We got a long way to go. A long way 00:12:37.610 --> 00:12:42.429 to go, I'm sure. But when you think of AGI, when 00:12:42.429 --> 00:12:45.549 you think of the possible future, like where 00:12:45.549 --> 00:12:48.870 it goes to, do you ever extrapolate? Do you ever 00:12:48.870 --> 00:12:52.330 like sit and pause and say, well, if this becomes 00:12:52.330 --> 00:12:56.110 sentient and it has the ability to make better 00:12:56.110 --> 00:12:59.389 versions of itself, how long before we're literally 00:12:59.389 --> 00:13:03.929 dealing with a God? So the way that I think about 00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:08.049 this is. It used to be that AGI was this very 00:13:08.049 --> 00:13:10.230 binary moment. It was before and after. And I 00:13:10.230 --> 00:13:13.110 think I was totally wrong about that. And the 00:13:13.110 --> 00:13:16.330 right way to think about it is this continuum 00:13:16.330 --> 00:13:19.889 of intelligence, this smooth exponential curve, 00:13:20.009 --> 00:13:22.350 back all the way to that sort of smooth curve 00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:27.610 of technological revolution. The amount of compute 00:13:27.610 --> 00:13:30.009 power we can put into the system, the scientific 00:13:30.009 --> 00:13:32.289 ideas about how to make it more efficient and 00:13:32.289 --> 00:13:35.759 smarter, to give it... the ability to do reasoning, 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:38.519 to think about how to improve itself, that will 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:43.019 all come. But my model for a long time, I think 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:46.220 if you look at the world of AGI thinkers, there's 00:13:46.220 --> 00:13:49.559 sort of two, particularly around the safety issues 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:52.019 you're talking about, there's two axes that matter. 00:13:52.299 --> 00:13:54.720 There's the short, what's called short timelines 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.039 or long timelines, you know, to the first milestone 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:00.519 of AGI, whatever that's going to be. Is that 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:03.360 going to happen in... A few years, a few decades, 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:05.019 maybe even longer. Although at this point, I 00:14:05.019 --> 00:14:06.460 think most people are a few years or a few decades. 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:09.460 And then there's takeoff speed. Once we get there, 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:11.279 from there to that point you were talking about 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:13.379 where it's capable of the rapid self -improvement, 00:14:13.419 --> 00:14:18.240 is that a slow or a fast process? The world that 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:21.259 I think we're heading, that we're in, and also 00:14:21.259 --> 00:14:23.460 the world that I think is the most controllable 00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:28.340 and the safest, is the short timelines and slow 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:33.570 takeoff quadrant. I think we're going to have, 00:14:33.610 --> 00:14:36.009 you know, there were a lot of very smart people 00:14:36.009 --> 00:14:37.389 for a while who were like, the thing you were 00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:38.929 just talking about happens in a day or three 00:14:38.929 --> 00:14:42.309 days. And that doesn't seem likely to me given 00:14:42.309 --> 00:14:44.950 the shape of the technology as we understand 00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:48.990 it now. Now, even if that happens in a decade 00:14:48.990 --> 00:14:51.529 or three decades, it's still like the blink of 00:14:51.529 --> 00:14:55.529 an eye from a historical perspective. And there 00:14:55.529 --> 00:14:57.370 are going to be some real challenges to getting 00:14:57.370 --> 00:15:02.460 that right. And the decisions we make. The sort 00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:05.840 of safety systems and the checks that the world 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:10.419 puts in place, how we think about global regulation 00:15:10.419 --> 00:15:13.419 or rules of the road from a safety perspective 00:15:13.419 --> 00:15:16.059 for those projects, it's super important because 00:15:16.059 --> 00:15:18.259 you can imagine many things going horribly wrong. 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:23.580 But I've been, I feel cheerful about the progress 00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:26.200 the world is making towards taking this seriously. 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:29.600 And, you know, it reminds me of... what I've 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:31.899 read about the conversations that the world had 00:15:31.899 --> 00:15:33.679 right around the development of nuclear weapons. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.220 It seems to me that this is, at least in terms 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:40.840 of public consciousness, this has emerged very 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:44.259 rapidly where I don't think anyone was really 00:15:44.259 --> 00:15:48.000 aware. People were aware of the concept of artificial 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.799 intelligence, but they didn't think that it was 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.820 going to be implemented. So comprehensively, 00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:59.519 so quickly. So ChatGPT is on, what, 4 .5 now? 00:16:00.019 --> 00:16:03.940 Four. Four. And with 4 .5, there'll be some sort 00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:06.000 of an exponential increase in its abilities? 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.879 It'll be somewhat better. Each step, from each 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:15.220 half step like that, humans have this ability 00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:17.740 to get used to any new technology so quickly. 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.360 The thing that I think was unusual about the 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:24.110 launch of ChatGPT... 3 .5 and then 4, was that 00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:27.190 people hadn't really been paying attention. And 00:16:27.190 --> 00:16:29.309 that's part of the reason we deploy. We think 00:16:29.309 --> 00:16:31.129 it's very important that people and institutions 00:16:31.129 --> 00:16:35.049 have time to gradually understand this, react, 00:16:35.570 --> 00:16:38.090 co -design the society that we want with it. 00:16:38.269 --> 00:16:40.629 And if you just build AGI in secret in a lab 00:16:40.629 --> 00:16:42.429 and then drop it on the world all at once, I 00:16:42.429 --> 00:16:45.549 think that's a really bad idea. So we had been 00:16:45.549 --> 00:16:47.269 trying to talk to the world about this for a 00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:50.460 while. People... If you don't give people something 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:52.480 they can feel and use in their lives, they don't 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.379 quite take it seriously. Everybody's busy. And 00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:57.580 so there was this big overhang from where the 00:16:57.580 --> 00:16:59.360 technology was to where public consciousness 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.799 was. Now, that's caught up. We've deployed. I 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.960 think people understand it. I don't expect the 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:09.880 jump from like four to whenever we finish 4 .5, 00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:11.960 which would be a little while. I don't expect 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:16.400 that to be the crazy, I think the crazy switch, 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:18.240 the crazy adjustment that people have had to 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.029 go through. has mostly happened. I think most 00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:23.930 people have gone from thinking that AGI was science 00:17:23.930 --> 00:17:26.369 fiction and very far off to something that is 00:17:26.369 --> 00:17:28.589 going to happen. And that was like a one -time 00:17:28.589 --> 00:17:31.230 reframe. And now, you know, every year you get 00:17:31.230 --> 00:17:34.210 a new iPhone. Over the 15 years or whatever since 00:17:34.210 --> 00:17:35.950 the launch, they've gotten dramatically better. 00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:38.109 But iPhone to iPhone, you're like, yeah, okay, 00:17:38.190 --> 00:17:39.849 it's a little better. But now if you go hold 00:17:39.849 --> 00:17:42.170 up the first iPhone to the 15 or whatever, that's 00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:45.509 a big difference. GPT 3 .5 to AGI, that'll be 00:17:45.509 --> 00:17:48.299 a big difference. But along the way, it'll just 00:17:48.299 --> 00:17:50.700 get incrementally better. Do you think about 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:54.940 the convergence of things like Neuralink and 00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:58.019 there's a few competing technologies where they're 00:17:58.019 --> 00:18:03.380 trying to implement some sort of a connection 00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:08.079 between the human biological system and technology? 00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:11.240 Do you want one of those things in your head? 00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:15.200 I don't until everybody does. Right. And, you 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.059 know, I have a joke about it. But it's like the 00:18:17.059 --> 00:18:20.160 idea is like once it gets – you have to kind 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.039 of because everybody is going to have it. So 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:27.619 one of the hard questions about all of the related 00:18:27.619 --> 00:18:30.359 merge stuff is exactly what you just said. Like 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.599 as a society, are we going to let some people 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:39.000 merge with AGI and not others? And if we do, 00:18:39.180 --> 00:18:42.160 then – and you choose not to, like what does 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.609 that mean for you? right and will you be protected 00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:49.029 how you get that moment right uh you know if 00:18:49.029 --> 00:18:51.529 we like imagine like all the way out to the sci 00:18:51.529 --> 00:18:54.430 -fi future there's been a lot of sci -fi books 00:18:54.430 --> 00:18:56.069 written about how you get that moment right you 00:18:56.069 --> 00:18:57.769 know who gets to do that first what about people 00:18:57.769 --> 00:18:59.569 who don't want to how do you make sure that people 00:18:59.569 --> 00:19:01.730 that do it first like actually help lift everybody 00:19:01.730 --> 00:19:03.670 up together yeah how do you make sure people 00:19:03.670 --> 00:19:05.970 who want to just like live their very human life 00:19:05.970 --> 00:19:09.190 get to do that that stuff is really hard and 00:19:09.190 --> 00:19:13.039 honestly so far off from my problems of the day 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:14.559 that I don't get to think about that as much 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:15.960 as I'd like to, because I do think it's super 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:22.440 interesting. But yeah, it seems like if we just 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.900 think logically, that's going to be a huge challenge 00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:33.900 at some point, and people are going to want wildly 00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:38.660 divergent things, but there is a societal question 00:19:38.660 --> 00:19:41.740 about how we're going to, like, The questions 00:19:41.740 --> 00:19:44.839 of fairness that come there and what it means 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:48.420 for the people who don't do it, super, super 00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:50.880 complicated. Anyway, on the neural interface 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.240 side, I'm in the short term, like before we figure 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.880 out how to upload someone's conscience into a 00:19:57.880 --> 00:19:59.539 computer, if that's even possible at all, which 00:19:59.539 --> 00:20:02.940 I think there's plenty of sides you could take 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:07.880 on why it's not. The thing that I find myself 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:12.119 most interested in is... What we can do without 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.940 drilling a hole in someone's head? How much of 00:20:15.940 --> 00:20:18.079 the inner monologue can we read out with an externally 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.720 mounted device? And if we have a imperfect, low 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.440 bandwidth, low accuracy neural interface, can 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:28.059 people still just learn how to use it really 00:20:28.059 --> 00:20:32.079 well in a way that's quite powerful for what 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:33.720 they can now do with a new computing platform? 00:20:34.099 --> 00:20:36.799 And my guess is we'll figure that out. I'm sure 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.460 you've seen that headpiece. There's a demonstration 00:20:39.460 --> 00:20:42.180 where there's someone asking someone a question. 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.059 They have this headpiece on. They think the question, 00:20:45.259 --> 00:20:47.599 and then they literally Google the question and 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:49.019 get the answers through their head. That's the 00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:51.740 kind of direction we've been exploring. Yeah. 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:55.980 That seems to me to be step one. That's the pong 00:20:55.980 --> 00:21:00.700 of the eventual immersive 3D video games. You're 00:21:00.700 --> 00:21:02.880 going to get these first steps, and they're going 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:05.819 to seem sort of crude and slow. I mean, it's 00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:08.880 essentially slower than just asking Siri. I think 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:14.339 if someone built a system where you could think 00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:16.900 words, it doesn't have to be a question. It could 00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:19.019 just be your passive rambling inner monologue, 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:21.519 but it certainly could be a question. And that 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.480 was being fed into GPT -5 or 6. And in your field 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:28.599 of vision, the words in response were being displayed. 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.259 That would be the palm. Yeah. That's a very valuable 00:21:32.259 --> 00:21:34.859 tool to have. And that seems like that's inevitable. 00:21:36.579 --> 00:21:38.339 There's hard work to get there on the neural 00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:40.079 interface side, but I believe it will happen. 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.380 Yeah. I think so too. And my concern is that 00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:45.980 the initial adopters of this will have such a 00:21:45.980 --> 00:21:48.359 massive advantage over the general population. 00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:50.279 Well, that doesn't concern me because that's 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:52.859 like a, you know, that's not, you're not, that's 00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:56.339 just like better. That's a better computer. You're 00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:58.900 not like jacking your brain into something in 00:21:58.900 --> 00:22:00.420 a high risk thing. You know what you do when 00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:01.900 you don't want them? When you take off the glasses. 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:07.039 So that feels fine. Well, this is just the external 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.099 device then. Oh, I think we can do the kind of 00:22:10.099 --> 00:22:12.019 like read your thoughts with an external device 00:22:12.019 --> 00:22:14.559 at some point. Read your internal monologue. 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.539 Interesting. And do you think we'll be able to 00:22:17.539 --> 00:22:20.619 communicate with an external device as well telepathically 00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:23.980 or semi -telepathically through technology? I 00:22:23.980 --> 00:22:29.019 do. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think so too. My real 00:22:29.019 --> 00:22:35.529 concern is that. Once we take the step to use 00:22:35.529 --> 00:22:38.150 an actual neural interface, when there's an actual 00:22:38.150 --> 00:22:42.269 operation, and they're using some sort of an 00:22:42.269 --> 00:22:44.950 implant, and then that implant becomes more sophisticated. 00:22:45.069 --> 00:22:47.710 It's not the iPhone 1. Now it's the iPhone 15. 00:22:48.029 --> 00:22:52.490 And as these things get better and better, we're 00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:55.779 on the road to cyborgs. We're on the road to 00:22:55.779 --> 00:22:59.440 like why would you want to be a biological person? 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:01.299 Do you really want to live in a fucking log cabin 00:23:01.299 --> 00:23:03.900 when you can be in the Matrix? I mean it seems 00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:11.220 like we're not – we're on this path. We're already 00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:13.599 a little bit down that path, right? Like if you 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.880 take away someone's phone and they have to go 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.240 function in the world today, they're at a disadvantage 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.599 relative to everybody else. So that's like a 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:24.049 – Maybe that's like the lightest weight version 00:23:24.049 --> 00:23:26.390 of a merge we could imagine. But I think it's 00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.750 worth like, if we go back to that earlier thing 00:23:28.750 --> 00:23:30.970 about the one exponential curve, I think it's 00:23:30.970 --> 00:23:32.930 worth saying we've like lifted off the x -axis 00:23:32.930 --> 00:23:36.509 already down this path, the tiniest bit. And 00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:40.589 yeah, even if you don't go all the way to like 00:23:40.589 --> 00:23:43.109 a neural interface, VR will get so good that 00:23:43.109 --> 00:23:44.869 some people just don't want to take it off that 00:23:44.869 --> 00:23:52.559 much. And that's fine for them as long as we 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.319 can solve this question of how do we, like, think 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.519 about what a balance of power means in a world. 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.920 I think there will be many people. I'm certainly 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.079 one of them who's like, actually, the human body 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:04.900 and the human experience is pretty great. That 00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:07.140 log heaven in the woods, pretty awesome. I don't 00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:08.519 want to be there all the time. I'd love to go 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:11.240 play the great video game. But, like, I'm really 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.500 happy to get to go there sometimes. Yeah, there's 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:19.539 still human experiences that are just. like great 00:24:19.539 --> 00:24:22.519 human experience just laughing with friends you 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.200 know kissing someone that you've never kissed 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:27.619 before that you're you're on a first date that 00:24:27.619 --> 00:24:30.940 kind of those kind of things are the real moments 00:24:30.940 --> 00:24:34.599 it just laughs yeah having a glass of wine with 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:36.819 a friend and just laughing not quite the same 00:24:36.819 --> 00:24:39.940 in vr yeah now when the vr goes super far so 00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:41.619 you can't you know it's like you are jacked in 00:24:41.619 --> 00:24:44.259 on your brain and you can't tell right what's 00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:47.420 real and what's not uh and then everybody gets 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:49.630 like super deep on the simulation hypothesis 00:24:49.630 --> 00:24:51.910 or the like Eastern religion or whatever. And 00:24:51.910 --> 00:24:53.670 I don't know what happens at that point. Do you 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:55.829 ever fuck around with simulation theory? Because 00:24:55.829 --> 00:24:58.490 the real problem is when you combine that with 00:24:58.490 --> 00:25:00.470 probability theory and you talk to the people 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.109 that say, well, if you just look at the numbers, 00:25:03.190 --> 00:25:06.450 the probability that we're already in a simulation 00:25:06.450 --> 00:25:08.650 is much higher than the probability that we're 00:25:08.650 --> 00:25:15.750 not. It's never been clear to me what to do about 00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:18.579 it. It's like, okay. Right. That intellectually 00:25:18.579 --> 00:25:21.420 makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I think probably, 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:23.599 sure. Right. That seems convincing, but this 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:26.319 is my reality. Yeah. This is my life. Yeah. And 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:32.440 I'm going to live it. And I've, you know, from 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:36.579 like 2 a .m. in my college freshman dorm hallway 00:25:36.579 --> 00:25:38.900 till now, I've made no more progress on it than 00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:45.140 that. Well, it seems like one of those, it's, 00:25:45.140 --> 00:25:50.250 there's no. You know, if it is a possibility, 00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:53.109 if it is real. First of all, once it happens, 00:25:53.190 --> 00:25:55.369 what are you going to do? I mean, that is the 00:25:55.369 --> 00:25:58.150 new reality. And in many ways, our new reality 00:25:58.150 --> 00:26:04.170 is as alien to, you know, hunter -gatherers from 00:26:04.170 --> 00:26:08.299 15 ,000 years ago. As that would be to us now. 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.180 I mean, we're already we've already entered into 00:26:11.180 --> 00:26:14.700 some very bizarre territory where, you know, 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.200 I was just having a conversation with my kids. 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.259 We're asking questions about something. And, 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:21.279 you know, I always say, let's guess what percentage 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.279 of that is this. And then we just Google it and 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.099 then just ask Siri and we pull it up. Like, look 00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:30.539 at that. Like that alone is so bizarre compared 00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:33.539 to how it was when I was 13 and you had to go 00:26:33.539 --> 00:26:37.000 to the library. And hope that the book was accurate. 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.140 Totally. I was very annoyed. I was reading about 00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:44.180 how horrible systems like ChatGPT and Google 00:26:44.180 --> 00:26:46.119 are from an environmental impact because it's 00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:49.440 using some extremely tiny amount of energy for 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.299 each query. And how we're all destroying the 00:26:52.299 --> 00:26:54.130 world. And I was like... Before that, people 00:26:54.130 --> 00:26:55.930 drove to the library. Let's talk about how much 00:26:55.930 --> 00:26:57.589 carbon they burned to answer this question versus 00:26:57.589 --> 00:27:00.289 what it takes now. Come on. But that's just people 00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:02.910 looking for some reason why something's bad. 00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:06.109 That's not a logical perspective. What we should 00:27:06.109 --> 00:27:10.170 be looking at is the spectacular changes that 00:27:10.170 --> 00:27:13.730 are possible through this. And all the problems, 00:27:13.829 --> 00:27:15.349 the insurmountable problems that we have with 00:27:15.349 --> 00:27:18.190 resources, with the environment, with cleaning 00:27:18.190 --> 00:27:21.269 up the ocean, climate change. There's so many. 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:24.960 We need this to solve everything else. And that's 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:30.900 why we need President AI. If AI could make every 00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:33.420 scientific discovery, but we still had human 00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:36.559 presidents, do you think we'd be okay? No. Because 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:38.720 those creeps would still be pocketing money and 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.880 they'd have offshore accounts and it would always 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.180 be a weird thing of corruption and how to mitigate 00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:47.319 that corruption, which is also one of the fascinating 00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:48.779 things about the current state of technology 00:27:48.779 --> 00:27:51.660 is that we're so much more aware of corruption. 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:54.440 We're so much more – there's so much independent 00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:58.799 reporting and we're so much more cognizant of 00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.799 the actual problems that are in place. This is 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:06.200 really great. One of the things that I've – observed, 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.740 obviously many other people too, is corruption 00:28:08.740 --> 00:28:12.200 is such an incredible hindrance to getting anything 00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.059 done in a society to make it forward progress. 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:19.059 And my worldview had been more US -centric when 00:28:19.059 --> 00:28:22.900 I was younger. And as I've just studied the world 00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:24.960 more and had to work in more places in the world, 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:26.579 it's amazing how much corruption there still 00:28:26.579 --> 00:28:30.339 is. But the shift to a technologically enabled 00:28:30.339 --> 00:28:33.500 world I think is a major force against it because 00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:36.619 everything is, it's harder to hide stuff. And 00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:39.799 I do think corruption in the world will keep 00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:44.200 trending down. Because of its exposure. Yeah. 00:28:44.380 --> 00:28:48.599 Through technology. I mean, it comes at a cost. 00:28:48.619 --> 00:28:51.819 And I think the loss that like, I am very worried 00:28:51.819 --> 00:28:54.059 about how far the surveillance state could go 00:28:54.059 --> 00:29:00.710 here. But in a world where. payments for example 00:29:00.710 --> 00:29:03.970 are no longer like bags of cash but done somehow 00:29:03.970 --> 00:29:06.990 digitally and somebody even if you're using bitcoin 00:29:06.990 --> 00:29:09.890 can like watch those flows i think that's like 00:29:09.890 --> 00:29:14.269 a corruption reducing thing i agree but i'm very 00:29:14.269 --> 00:29:17.470 worried about central bank digital currency and 00:29:17.470 --> 00:29:21.279 that being tied to a social credit score Super 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.440 against. Yeah, that scares the shit out of me. 00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:26.519 Super against. And the push to that is not – 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:29.059 that's not for the overall good of society. That's 00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:33.400 for control. Yeah. I think like – I mean there's 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.700 many things that I'm disappointed that the US 00:29:37.700 --> 00:29:40.900 government has done recently. But the war on 00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:43.640 crypto, which I think is a like we can't give 00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:45.839 this up. Like we're going to control this and 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.500 all this. That's like – That's the thing that 00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:51.839 makes me quite sad about the country. It makes 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:53.460 me quite sad about the country, too. But then 00:29:53.460 --> 00:29:56.200 you also see with things like FTX, like, oh, 00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:59.940 this can get without regulation and without someone 00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:05.440 overseeing it. This can get really fucked. Yeah, 00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:08.480 I'm not anti -regulation. Like, I think there's 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:14.720 clearly a role for it. And I also think FTX was 00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.109 like a sort of. comically bad situation yeah 00:30:18.109 --> 00:30:20.089 we shouldn't it's like worst case scenario yeah 00:30:20.089 --> 00:30:23.569 yeah but it's a fun one like it's totally fun 00:30:23.569 --> 00:30:28.829 and i love that story i mean you clearly i really 00:30:28.829 --> 00:30:30.910 do i love the fact that they were all doing drugs 00:30:30.910 --> 00:30:32.769 and having sex with each other yeah no no i had 00:30:32.769 --> 00:30:36.450 every part of the dramas of like uh it i mean 00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:38.289 it's a gripping story because they had everything 00:30:38.289 --> 00:30:41.369 there they did their taxes with uh like what 00:30:41.369 --> 00:30:44.559 was the the program that they used QuickBooks. 00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:48.799 They're dealing with billions of dollars of cash. 00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:50.900 I don't know why I think the word polycule is 00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:53.259 so funny. Polycule? That was what they, like, 00:30:53.259 --> 00:30:56.000 when you call a relationship, like a poly but 00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:59.460 closed, like polyamorous molecule put together. 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:01.900 Oh, I see. So they were like, this is our polycule. 00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:03.680 So there's nine of them and they're poly amongst 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:04.900 them. Or ten of them or whatever. Yeah, and you 00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:06.359 call that a polycule. And I thought that was 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.019 the funny, like, that became like a meme in Silicon 00:31:09.019 --> 00:31:10.460 Valley for a while that I thought was hilarious. 00:31:11.399 --> 00:31:13.799 You clearly want enough regulation that that 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:18.900 can't happen. But they're – Well, I'm not against 00:31:18.900 --> 00:31:21.819 that happening. I'm against them doing what they 00:31:21.819 --> 00:31:23.799 did with the money. That's what I mean. The polycule 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:25.819 is kind of fun. Go for it. No, no. I mean you 00:31:25.819 --> 00:31:28.220 want enough thing that like FTX can't lose all 00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:31.279 of its depositors' money. Yes. But I think there's 00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:33.380 an important point here, which is you have all 00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:36.440 of this other regulation that people – and it 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:40.079 didn't keep us safe. And the basic thing, which 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:43.130 was like – You know, let's do that. That was 00:31:43.130 --> 00:31:45.009 not all of the crypto stuff people were talking 00:31:45.009 --> 00:31:50.410 about. Yes. I mean, the real fascinating crypto 00:31:50.410 --> 00:31:53.609 is Bitcoin to me. I mean, that's the one that 00:31:53.609 --> 00:31:58.170 I think has the most likely possibility of becoming 00:31:58.170 --> 00:32:04.029 a universal viable currency. And it's, you know, 00:32:04.049 --> 00:32:06.309 it's limited in the amount that there can be. 00:32:06.730 --> 00:32:09.970 It's, you know. People mine it with their own 00:32:09.970 --> 00:32:12.849 – it's like that to me is very fascinating and 00:32:12.849 --> 00:32:15.769 I love the fact that it's been implemented and 00:32:15.769 --> 00:32:19.230 that at least – like I've had Andreas Antonopoulos 00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:21.910 on the podcast and he's – when he talks about 00:32:21.910 --> 00:32:27.410 it, he's living it. He's spending all of his 00:32:27.410 --> 00:32:30.049 – everything he gets paid is in Bitcoin. He pays 00:32:30.049 --> 00:32:32.250 his rent in Bitcoin. Everything he does is in 00:32:32.250 --> 00:32:40.640 Bitcoin. And so I've gotten to learn more about 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:44.240 the space. I'm excited about it for the same 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.359 reasons. I'm excited about Bitcoin, too. But 00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:50.319 I think this idea that we have a global currency 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:53.119 that is outside of the control of any government 00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:58.140 is a super logical and important step on the 00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:00.970 tech tree. Yeah, agreed. I mean, why should the 00:33:00.970 --> 00:33:03.390 government control currency? I mean, the government 00:33:03.390 --> 00:33:05.970 should be dealing with all the pressing environmental, 00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:09.529 social, infrastructure issues, foreign policy 00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:13.089 issues, economic issues, the things that we need 00:33:13.089 --> 00:33:16.670 to be governed in order to have a peaceful and 00:33:16.670 --> 00:33:19.309 prosperous society that's equal and equitable. 00:33:20.130 --> 00:33:22.329 What do you think happens to money and currency 00:33:22.329 --> 00:33:26.819 after AGI? I've wondered about that because I 00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:29.339 feel like with money, especially when money goes 00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:33.200 digital, the bottleneck is access. If we get 00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:37.660 to a point where all information is just freely 00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:40.779 shared everywhere, there are no secrets, there 00:33:40.779 --> 00:33:43.509 are no boundaries, there are no borders. We're 00:33:43.509 --> 00:33:47.829 reading minds. We have complete access to all 00:33:47.829 --> 00:33:51.049 of the information of everything you've ever 00:33:51.049 --> 00:33:53.089 done, everything everyone's ever said. There's 00:33:53.089 --> 00:33:56.769 no hidden secrets. What is money then? Money 00:33:56.769 --> 00:33:59.349 is this digital thing. Well, how can you possess 00:33:59.349 --> 00:34:02.630 it? How can you possess this digital thing if 00:34:02.630 --> 00:34:05.369 there is literally no bottleneck? There's no 00:34:05.369 --> 00:34:08.809 barriers to anyone accessing any information 00:34:08.809 --> 00:34:11.389 because essentially it's just ones and zeros. 00:34:12.030 --> 00:34:14.250 Yeah, I mean another way – I think the information 00:34:14.250 --> 00:34:16.590 frame makes sense. Another way is that like money 00:34:16.590 --> 00:34:22.750 is like a sort of way to trade labor or to trade 00:34:22.750 --> 00:34:24.969 like a limited number of hard assets like land 00:34:24.969 --> 00:34:29.530 and houses and whatever. And if you think about 00:34:29.530 --> 00:34:32.849 a world where like intellectual labor is just 00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:38.949 readily available and super cheap, then that's 00:34:38.949 --> 00:34:42.420 somehow very different. I think there will always 00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:44.739 be goods that we want to be scarce and expensive, 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:47.579 but it'll only be those goods that we want to 00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:49.780 be scarce and expensive and services that still 00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:52.780 are. And so money in a world like that, I think, 00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:57.000 is just a very curious idea. Yeah, it becomes 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:58.739 a different thing. I mean, it's not a bag of 00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:01.340 gold in a leather pouch. That you're carrying 00:35:01.340 --> 00:35:03.039 around. Not going to do you much good probably. 00:35:03.300 --> 00:35:05.139 It's not going to do you much good. But then 00:35:05.139 --> 00:35:07.179 the question becomes how is that money distributed 00:35:07.179 --> 00:35:11.280 and how do we avoid some horrible Marxist society 00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:14.739 where there's one totalitarian government that 00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:17.619 just – That would be bad. I think you've got 00:35:17.619 --> 00:35:21.019 to like – my current best idea and maybe there's 00:35:21.019 --> 00:35:23.920 something better is I think you – like if we 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.099 are right – a lot of reasons we could be wrong. 00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.929 But if we are right that like – The AGI systems 00:35:28.929 --> 00:35:31.750 of which there will be a few become the high 00:35:31.750 --> 00:35:34.610 order bits of sort of influence whatever in the 00:35:34.610 --> 00:35:40.510 world. I think you do need like not to just redistribute 00:35:40.510 --> 00:35:42.449 the money but the access so that people can make 00:35:42.449 --> 00:35:44.710 their own decisions about how to use it and how 00:35:44.710 --> 00:35:47.949 to govern it. And if you've got one idea, you 00:35:47.949 --> 00:35:49.789 get to do this. If I've got one idea, I get to 00:35:49.789 --> 00:35:53.070 do that. And I have like rights to basically 00:35:53.070 --> 00:35:55.670 do whatever I want with my part of it. And if 00:35:55.670 --> 00:35:57.469 I come up with better ideas than you, I get rewarded 00:35:57.469 --> 00:35:59.969 for that by whatever the society is or vice versa. 00:36:00.130 --> 00:36:03.679 Yeah. You know, the hardliners, the people that 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:07.039 are against like welfare and against any sort 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:12.099 of universal basic income, UBI, what they're 00:36:12.099 --> 00:36:14.980 really concerned with is human nature, right? 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:18.559 They believe that if you remove incentives, if 00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:20.579 you just give people free money, they become 00:36:20.579 --> 00:36:23.860 addicted to it. They become lazy. But isn't that 00:36:23.860 --> 00:36:28.059 a human biological and psychological bottleneck? 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:35.639 With the implementation of artificial intelligence 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:39.900 combined with some sort of neural interface, 00:36:40.099 --> 00:36:44.500 whether it's external or internal, it seems like 00:36:44.500 --> 00:36:49.099 that's a problem that can be solved. That you 00:36:49.099 --> 00:36:52.280 can essentially, and this is where it gets really 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:55.480 spooky, you can re -engineer the human biological 00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:59.760 system and you can remove. all of these problems 00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:02.719 that people have that are essentially problems 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.219 that date back to human reward systems when we 00:37:05.219 --> 00:37:07.579 were tribal people, hunter -gatherer people, 00:37:07.780 --> 00:37:11.099 whether it's jealousy, lust, envy, all these 00:37:11.099 --> 00:37:15.159 variables that come into play when you're dealing 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:19.239 with money and status and social status, if those 00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:22.090 are eliminated, with technology and essentially 00:37:22.090 --> 00:37:26.849 we become a next version of what the human species 00:37:26.849 --> 00:37:30.449 is possible. Like, look, we're very, very far 00:37:30.449 --> 00:37:36.969 removed from tribal, brutal societies of cave 00:37:36.969 --> 00:37:40.010 people. We all agree that this is a way better 00:37:40.010 --> 00:37:42.230 way to live. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's way 00:37:42.230 --> 00:37:45.429 safer. You know, we were like, I was talking 00:37:45.429 --> 00:37:47.650 about this at my comedy club last night. Because 00:37:47.650 --> 00:37:52.469 my wife was, we were talking about DNA, and my 00:37:52.469 --> 00:37:54.789 wife was saying that, look, everybody came from 00:37:54.789 --> 00:37:56.510 cave people, which is kind of a fucked up thought, 00:37:56.570 --> 00:37:58.829 that everyone here is here because of cave people. 00:37:59.369 --> 00:38:02.409 Well, all that's still in our DNA. All that's 00:38:02.409 --> 00:38:06.829 still – and these reward systems can be hijacked 00:38:06.829 --> 00:38:09.130 and they can be hijacked by just giving people 00:38:09.130 --> 00:38:10.829 money and like you don't have to work. You don't 00:38:10.829 --> 00:38:12.090 have to do anything. You don't have to have ambition. 00:38:12.289 --> 00:38:15.809 You'll just have money and just lay around and 00:38:15.809 --> 00:38:19.789 do drugs. That's the fear that people have of 00:38:19.789 --> 00:38:23.909 giving people free money. But if we can figure 00:38:23.909 --> 00:38:29.289 out how to literally engineer the human biological 00:38:29.289 --> 00:38:35.659 vehicle. And remove all those pitfalls. If we 00:38:35.659 --> 00:38:39.599 can enlighten people technologically. Maybe enlighten 00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:44.260 is the wrong word. But advance the human species 00:38:44.260 --> 00:38:47.420 to the point where those are no longer dilemmas. 00:38:47.420 --> 00:38:50.960 Because those are easily solvable through coding. 00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:55.139 They're easily solvable through enhancing. the 00:38:55.139 --> 00:38:57.860 human biological system, perhaps raising dopamine 00:38:57.860 --> 00:39:01.420 levels to the point where anger and fear and 00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:05.320 hate are impossible. They don't exist. And I 00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:09.179 mean, if you just had everyone on Mali, how many 00:39:09.179 --> 00:39:11.480 wars would there be? There'd be zero wars. I 00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:13.699 mean, I think if you could get everyone on Earth 00:39:13.699 --> 00:39:16.730 to all do Mali. once on the same day, that'd 00:39:16.730 --> 00:39:18.610 be a tremendous thing. It would be. If you got 00:39:18.610 --> 00:39:20.670 everybody on earth to do Mali every day, that'd 00:39:20.670 --> 00:39:23.670 be a real loss. But what if they did a low dose 00:39:23.670 --> 00:39:27.610 of Mali where you just get to, ah, where everybody 00:39:27.610 --> 00:39:31.769 greets people with love and affection and there's 00:39:31.769 --> 00:39:34.630 no longer a concern about competition. Instead, 00:39:34.769 --> 00:39:37.909 the concern is about the fascination of innovation 00:39:37.909 --> 00:39:43.400 and creation and creativity. Man, we could talk 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:45.260 the rest of the time about this one topic. It's 00:39:45.260 --> 00:39:51.980 so interesting. I think if I could push a button 00:39:51.980 --> 00:39:58.039 to remove all human striving and conflict, I 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.159 wouldn't do it, first of all. I think that's 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:03.179 a very important part of our story and experience. 00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:09.079 And also, I think we can see both from our own 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.400 biological... history and also from what we know 00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:19.280 about ai that very simple goal systems fitness 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:21.179 functions reward models whatever you want to 00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:25.579 call it lead to incredibly impressive results 00:40:25.579 --> 00:40:28.400 you know if the biological imperative is survive 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:33.000 and reproduce look how far that has somehow gotten 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.760 us as a society all of this all this stuff we 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:37.380 have all this technology this building whatever 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:46.960 else like That got here through an extremely 00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:51.059 simple goal in a very complex environment leading 00:40:51.059 --> 00:40:54.659 to all of the richness and complexity of people 00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:58.579 fulfilling this biological imperative to some 00:40:58.579 --> 00:41:03.139 degree and wanting to impress each other. So 00:41:03.139 --> 00:41:05.880 I think evolutionary fitness is a simple and 00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:10.510 unbelievably powerful idea. Could you carefully 00:41:10.510 --> 00:41:14.289 edit out every individual manifestation of that? 00:41:16.510 --> 00:41:19.309 Maybe, but I don't want to live in a society 00:41:19.309 --> 00:41:21.710 of drones where everybody is just sort of like 00:41:21.710 --> 00:41:26.289 on Molly all the time either. That doesn't seem 00:41:26.289 --> 00:41:29.769 like the right answer. I want us to continue 00:41:29.769 --> 00:41:32.389 to strive. I want us to continue to push back 00:41:32.389 --> 00:41:35.090 the frontier and go out and explore. And I actually 00:41:35.090 --> 00:41:38.659 think something's already gotten... a little 00:41:38.659 --> 00:41:43.019 off track in society about all of that. And we're, 00:41:43.019 --> 00:41:49.679 I don't know. I think like I'm, I don't, I thought 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.099 I'd be older by the time I felt like the old 00:41:51.099 --> 00:41:54.860 guy complaining about the youth. But I think 00:41:54.860 --> 00:42:00.559 we've lost something. And I think that we need 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.780 more striving, maybe more risk -taking, more 00:42:04.780 --> 00:42:09.190 like. What do you mean by you think we've lost 00:42:09.190 --> 00:42:19.550 something? I mean, here's like a version of it 00:42:19.550 --> 00:42:24.829 very much from my own lens. I was a startup investor 00:42:24.829 --> 00:42:29.710 for a long time. And it often was the case that 00:42:29.710 --> 00:42:33.289 the very best startup founders were... in their 00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:36.909 early or mid 20s or late 20s maybe even and now 00:42:36.909 --> 00:42:40.010 they skew much older and what i want to know 00:42:40.010 --> 00:42:42.909 is in the world today where are the super great 00:42:42.909 --> 00:42:45.409 25 year old founders and there are a few it's 00:42:45.409 --> 00:42:46.769 not fair to say there are none but there are 00:42:46.769 --> 00:42:53.989 less than there were before and i think that's 00:42:53.989 --> 00:42:56.570 bad for society at all levels i mean like tech 00:42:56.570 --> 00:42:59.230 company founders is one example but like people 00:42:59.230 --> 00:43:02.130 who go off and create something new who push 00:43:02.130 --> 00:43:05.349 on a disagreeable or controversial idea, we need 00:43:05.349 --> 00:43:10.949 that to drive forward. We need that sort of spirit. 00:43:11.010 --> 00:43:14.369 We need people to be able to put out ideas and 00:43:14.369 --> 00:43:17.769 be wrong and not be ostracized from society for 00:43:17.769 --> 00:43:20.150 it or not have it be like something that they 00:43:20.150 --> 00:43:22.730 get canceled for or whatever. We need people 00:43:22.730 --> 00:43:25.429 to be able to take a risk in their career because 00:43:25.429 --> 00:43:27.730 they believe in... some important scientific 00:43:27.730 --> 00:43:30.469 quest that may not work out or may sound like 00:43:30.469 --> 00:43:33.769 really controversial or bad or whatever. You 00:43:33.769 --> 00:43:35.989 know, certainly when we started OpenAI and we 00:43:35.989 --> 00:43:38.909 were saying, we think this AGI thing is real 00:43:38.909 --> 00:43:41.989 and could be, you know, could be done, unlikely, 00:43:42.150 --> 00:43:44.449 but so important if it happens. And all of the 00:43:44.449 --> 00:43:47.110 older scientists in our field were saying, those 00:43:47.110 --> 00:43:49.389 people are irresponsible. You shouldn't talk 00:43:49.389 --> 00:43:51.190 about AGI. That's like, you know, they're like 00:43:51.190 --> 00:43:55.269 selling a scam or they're like, you know. they're 00:43:55.269 --> 00:43:57.849 kind of being reckless and it's going to lead 00:43:57.849 --> 00:44:00.969 to an AGI winter. Like we said, we believed we 00:44:00.969 --> 00:44:02.849 said at the time we knew it was unlikely, but 00:44:02.849 --> 00:44:05.110 it was an important quest and we were going to 00:44:05.110 --> 00:44:06.989 go after it and kind of like fuck the haters. 00:44:08.210 --> 00:44:12.449 That's important to a society. What do you think 00:44:12.449 --> 00:44:15.570 is the origin? Like what, why do you think there 00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:19.289 are less young people that are doing those kinds 00:44:19.289 --> 00:44:22.710 of things now as opposed to a decade or two ago? 00:44:25.230 --> 00:44:29.369 I am so interested in that topic. I'm tempted 00:44:29.369 --> 00:44:32.849 to blame the education system, but I think that 00:44:32.849 --> 00:44:37.949 interacts with society in all of these strange 00:44:37.949 --> 00:44:42.250 ways. It's funny. There was this thing all over 00:44:42.250 --> 00:44:44.030 my Twitter feed recently trying to talk about 00:44:44.030 --> 00:44:48.809 what caused the drop in testosterone in American 00:44:48.809 --> 00:44:51.610 men over the last few decades. And no one was 00:44:51.610 --> 00:44:56.429 like, this is a symptom, not a cause. And everyone 00:44:56.429 --> 00:44:58.230 was like, oh, it's the microplastics, it's the 00:44:58.230 --> 00:44:59.550 birth control pills, it's the whatever, it's 00:44:59.550 --> 00:45:01.650 the whatever, it's the whatever. And I think 00:45:01.650 --> 00:45:07.730 this is not at all the most important piece of 00:45:07.730 --> 00:45:09.789 this topic, but it was just interesting to me 00:45:09.789 --> 00:45:15.590 sociologically that there was only talk about 00:45:15.590 --> 00:45:20.570 what caused it, not about it being an effect 00:45:20.570 --> 00:45:25.760 of some sort of change in society. But isn't 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.079 what caused it – well, there's biological reasons 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:33.139 why. Like when we talk about the phthalates and 00:45:33.139 --> 00:45:35.940 microplastic pesticides, environmental factors, 00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:39.059 those are real. Totally. And I don't like – again, 00:45:39.139 --> 00:45:41.000 I'm so far out of my depth and expertise here. 00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:43.340 This was – it was just interesting to me that 00:45:43.340 --> 00:45:46.019 the only talk was about like biological factors 00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:49.360 and not that somehow society can have. some sort 00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:51.599 of effect? Well, society most certainly has an 00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:53.860 effect. Do you know what the answer to this is? 00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:57.739 I don't. I mean, I've had a podcast with Dr. 00:45:57.860 --> 00:46:00.699 Shanna Swan, who wrote the book Countdown. And 00:46:00.699 --> 00:46:03.340 that is all about the introduction of petrochemical 00:46:03.340 --> 00:46:06.880 products and the correlating drop in testosterone, 00:46:07.500 --> 00:46:11.539 rise in miscarriages, the fact that these are 00:46:11.539 --> 00:46:14.599 ubiquitous endocrine disruptors that when they 00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:18.500 do blood tests on people, they find some Insane 00:46:18.500 --> 00:46:21.500 number. It's like 90 -plus percent of people 00:46:21.500 --> 00:46:24.920 have phthalates in their system. I appreciate 00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:28.260 the metal cups. Yeah. We try to mitigate it as 00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:30.360 much as possible. But, I mean, you're getting 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.460 it. If you're microwaving food, you're fucking 00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:34.960 getting it. You're just getting it. If you eat 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:36.599 processed food, you're getting it. You're getting 00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.420 a certain amount of microplastics in your diet. 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:41.480 And estimates have been that it's as high as 00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:45.239 a credit card of microplastics per week in your 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:47.420 body. You consume a credit card of that a week. 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:52.139 The real concern is with mammals because the 00:46:52.139 --> 00:46:54.059 introductions, when they've done studies with 00:46:54.059 --> 00:46:56.960 mammals, when they've introduced phthalates into 00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:01.340 their body, there's a correlating. One thing 00:47:01.340 --> 00:47:05.360 that happens is these animals, their taints shrink. 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:09.400 Like the taint of the mammal, when you look at 00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.679 males, it's 50 % to 100 % larger than the females. 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:15.219 With the introduction of phthalates on the males, 00:47:15.380 --> 00:47:17.920 the taints start shrinking, the penises shrink, 00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:20.559 the testicles shrink, sperm count shrinks. So 00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.619 we know there's a direct biological connection 00:47:23.619 --> 00:47:28.559 between these chemicals and how they interact 00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:33.119 with bodies. So that's a real one. And it's also 00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:37.420 the amount of petrochemical products that we 00:47:37.420 --> 00:47:41.269 have, the amount of plastics that we use. It 00:47:41.269 --> 00:47:43.869 is such an integral part of our culture and our 00:47:43.869 --> 00:47:47.889 society, our civilization. It's everywhere. And 00:47:47.889 --> 00:47:55.369 I've wondered if you think about how these territorial 00:47:55.369 --> 00:48:04.130 apes evolve into this new advanced species, wouldn't 00:48:04.130 --> 00:48:09.349 one of the very best ways. be to get rid of one 00:48:09.349 --> 00:48:11.250 of the things that causes the most problems, 00:48:11.329 --> 00:48:13.909 which is testosterone. We need testosterone. 00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:16.869 We need aggressive men and protectors. But why 00:48:16.869 --> 00:48:18.929 do we need them? We need them because there's 00:48:18.929 --> 00:48:22.010 other aggressive men that are evil, right? So 00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:25.750 we need protectors from ourselves. We need the 00:48:25.750 --> 00:48:28.730 good, strong people to protect us from the bad, 00:48:28.750 --> 00:48:32.429 strong people. But if we're... In the process 00:48:32.429 --> 00:48:35.349 of integrating with technology, if technology 00:48:35.349 --> 00:48:38.710 is an inescapable part of our life, if it is 00:48:38.710 --> 00:48:41.530 everywhere, you're using it, you have the Internet 00:48:41.530 --> 00:48:43.530 of everything that's in your microwave and your 00:48:43.530 --> 00:48:47.329 television, your computers, everything you use. 00:48:48.110 --> 00:48:51.929 As time goes on, that will be more and more a 00:48:51.929 --> 00:48:54.409 part of your life. And as these plastics are 00:48:54.409 --> 00:48:56.230 introduced into the human biological system. 00:48:56.909 --> 00:49:00.429 You're seeing a feminization of the males of 00:49:00.429 --> 00:49:03.989 the species. You're seeing a downfall in birth 00:49:03.989 --> 00:49:06.630 rate. You're seeing all these correlating factors 00:49:06.630 --> 00:49:11.130 that would sort of lead us to become this more 00:49:11.130 --> 00:49:17.429 peaceful, less violent, less aggressive, less 00:49:17.429 --> 00:49:21.889 ego -driven thing. Which the world is definitely 00:49:21.889 --> 00:49:26.559 becoming all the time. And I'm all for less violence, 00:49:26.739 --> 00:49:35.920 obviously. But I don't... Look, obviously testosterone 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:38.860 has many great things to say for it and some 00:49:38.860 --> 00:49:42.780 bad tendencies too. But I don't think a world, 00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:45.320 if we leave that out of the equation and just 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:51.960 say like a world that has a spirit that, you 00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:55.579 know, we're gonna... defend ourselves we're going 00:49:55.579 --> 00:50:00.739 to we're going to find a way to like protect 00:50:00.739 --> 00:50:05.059 ourselves and our tribe and our society into 00:50:05.059 --> 00:50:07.179 this future which you can get with lots of other 00:50:07.179 --> 00:50:10.619 ways I think that's an important impulse more 00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:17.019 than that though what I meant is about if we 00:50:17.019 --> 00:50:19.000 go back to the issue of like where are the young 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:21.780 founders why don't we have Why don't we have 00:50:21.780 --> 00:50:24.239 more of those? And I don't think it's just the 00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:25.900 tech startup industry. I think you could say 00:50:25.900 --> 00:50:28.699 that about like young scientists or many other 00:50:28.699 --> 00:50:30.239 categories. Those are maybe just the ones that 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:39.960 I know the best. In a world with any amount of 00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:44.760 technology, I still think we've got to – it is 00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:48.199 our destiny in some sense to stay on this curve. 00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:51.619 And we still need to go figure out what's next 00:50:51.619 --> 00:50:53.360 and after the next hill and after the next hill. 00:50:53.860 --> 00:51:00.400 And it would be my perception is that there is 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:03.480 some long -term societal change happening here. 00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:07.420 And I think it makes us less happy too. Right. 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:11.619 It may make us less happy. But what I'm saying 00:51:11.619 --> 00:51:14.719 is if the human species does integrate with technology. 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:19.139 Wouldn't a great way to facilitate that to be 00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:24.320 to kind of feminize the primal apes and to sort 00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:27.780 of downplay the role – You mean like should the 00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:30.619 AGI take phthalates into the world? I don't know 00:51:30.619 --> 00:51:32.340 if it's AGI. I mean maybe it's just an inevitable 00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:37.059 consequence of technology. Because especially 00:51:37.059 --> 00:51:39.760 the type of technology that we use, which does 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:42.739 have so much plastic in it. And then on top of 00:51:42.739 --> 00:51:44.619 that, the technology that's involved in food 00:51:44.619 --> 00:51:47.280 systems, preservatives, all these different things 00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:48.840 that we use to make sure that people don't starve 00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.619 to death. We've made incredible strides in that. 00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:54.079 There are very few people in this country that 00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:57.800 starve to death. It's not a primary issue. But 00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:02.659 violence is a primary issue. But our concerns 00:52:02.659 --> 00:52:06.880 about violence. And our concerns about testosterone 00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:11.139 and strong men and powerful people is only because 00:52:11.139 --> 00:52:12.920 – We need to protect against others. We need 00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:16.539 to protect against other same things. Is that 00:52:16.539 --> 00:52:19.460 really the only reason? Sure. I mean how many 00:52:19.460 --> 00:52:21.679 like incredibly violent women are out there running 00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:24.800 gangs? No, no. That part for sure. Yeah. Probably 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:27.900 not very many. What I meant more is is that the 00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:31.300 only reason that society values like strong masculinity? 00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:35.000 Yeah, I think so. I think it's a biological imperative, 00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:37.400 right? And I think that biological imperative 00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:39.400 is because we used to have to defend against 00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:43.039 incoming tribes and predators and animals. And 00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:46.719 we needed someone who was stronger than most 00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:50.300 to defend the rest. And that's the concept of 00:52:50.300 --> 00:52:53.139 the military. That's why Navy SEAL training is 00:52:53.139 --> 00:52:55.440 so difficult. We want the strongest of the strong 00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:58.400 to be at the tip of the spear. But that's only 00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.820 because there's people like that out there that 00:53:00.820 --> 00:53:05.300 are bad. Artificial general intelligence and 00:53:05.300 --> 00:53:07.900 the implementation of some sort of a device that 00:53:07.900 --> 00:53:11.619 changes the biological structure of human beings 00:53:11.619 --> 00:53:14.139 to the point where that is no longer a concern. 00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:17.579 Like if you are me and I am you and I know this 00:53:17.579 --> 00:53:20.280 because of technology, violence is impossible. 00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:22.900 Yeah. Look, by the time if this goes all the 00:53:22.900 --> 00:53:24.239 way down the sci -fi path and we're all like 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:27.659 merged into this one single like planetary universal 00:53:27.659 --> 00:53:31.159 whatever consciousness, then yes, you don't. 00:53:31.369 --> 00:53:33.349 You don't need testosterone. Need testosterone, 00:53:33.469 --> 00:53:35.510 but you still... Especially if we can reproduce 00:53:35.510 --> 00:53:38.789 through other methods. Like, this is the alien 00:53:38.789 --> 00:53:41.170 hypothesis, right? Like, why do they look so 00:53:41.170 --> 00:53:43.989 spindly and without any gender and, you know, 00:53:43.989 --> 00:53:45.349 when they have these big heads and tiny mouths? 00:53:45.349 --> 00:53:46.750 They don't need physical strength. They don't 00:53:46.750 --> 00:53:48.949 need physical strength. They have some sort of 00:53:48.949 --> 00:53:51.230 telepathic way of communicating. They probably 00:53:51.230 --> 00:53:54.110 don't need sounds with their mouths. And they 00:53:54.110 --> 00:53:58.039 don't need this... urge that we have to conquer 00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:01.099 and to spread our dna like that's so much of 00:54:01.099 --> 00:54:05.139 what people do is these reward systems that were 00:54:05.139 --> 00:54:08.079 established when we were territorial apes there's 00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:12.260 a question to me about how much you can ever 00:54:12.260 --> 00:54:18.679 get rid of rid of that if you make an agi and 00:54:18.679 --> 00:54:22.239 it decides actually we don't need to expand we 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:24.469 don't need more territory We're just like happy 00:54:24.469 --> 00:54:26.789 – we at this point, you, me, it, the whole thing 00:54:26.789 --> 00:54:28.809 all together, all merged in. We're happy here 00:54:28.809 --> 00:54:31.369 on earth. We don't need to get any bigger. We 00:54:31.369 --> 00:54:32.449 don't need to reproduce. We don't need to grow. 00:54:33.010 --> 00:54:36.389 We're just going to sit here and run. A, that 00:54:36.389 --> 00:54:38.309 sounds like a boring life. I don't agree with 00:54:38.309 --> 00:54:41.070 that. I don't agree that that would be the logical 00:54:41.070 --> 00:54:43.769 conclusion. I think the logical conclusion would 00:54:43.769 --> 00:54:49.989 be they would look for problems and frontiers. 00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:53.340 That are insurmountable to our current existence, 00:54:53.739 --> 00:54:56.500 like intergalactic communication and transportation. 00:54:56.579 --> 00:54:58.980 What happens when it meets another AGI the other 00:54:58.980 --> 00:55:01.260 galaxy over? What happens when it meets an AGI 00:55:01.260 --> 00:55:03.579 that's a million years more advanced? Or that. 00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:06.980 Like, what does that look like? Yeah. That's 00:55:06.980 --> 00:55:10.380 what I've often wondered if we are. I call ourselves 00:55:10.380 --> 00:55:12.599 the biological caterpillars that create the electronic 00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:15.610 butterfly. That we're making a cocoon right now 00:55:15.610 --> 00:55:16.869 and we don't even know what we're doing. And 00:55:16.869 --> 00:55:20.250 I think it's also tied into consumerism. Because 00:55:20.250 --> 00:55:23.769 what does consumerism do? Consumerism facilitates 00:55:23.769 --> 00:55:26.269 the creation of newer and better things because 00:55:26.269 --> 00:55:28.449 you always want the newest, latest, greatest. 00:55:28.630 --> 00:55:31.829 So you have more advanced technology and automobiles 00:55:31.829 --> 00:55:35.170 and computers and cell phones and all of these 00:55:35.170 --> 00:55:37.289 different things, including medical science. 00:55:40.570 --> 00:55:44.909 That's all for sure true. uh the thing i was 00:55:44.909 --> 00:55:46.489 like reflecting on as you were saying that is 00:55:46.489 --> 00:55:53.309 i don't think i i'm not as optimistic that we 00:55:53.309 --> 00:55:59.010 can or even should overcome our biological base 00:55:59.010 --> 00:56:02.909 to the degree that i think you think we can and 00:56:02.909 --> 00:56:05.969 you know to even go back one further level like 00:56:05.969 --> 00:56:10.909 i i think i think society is happiest where there's 00:56:10.909 --> 00:56:13.969 like roles for strong femininity and strong masculinity 00:56:13.969 --> 00:56:16.650 in the same people and in different people um 00:56:16.650 --> 00:56:25.750 and and i don't like and i don't think a lot 00:56:25.750 --> 00:56:30.590 of these like deep -seated things are gonna be 00:56:30.590 --> 00:56:34.250 able to get pushed aside very easily and still 00:56:34.250 --> 00:56:38.150 have a system that works like sure we can't really 00:56:38.150 --> 00:56:40.389 think about what if there were consciousness 00:56:40.389 --> 00:56:42.710 in a machine someday or whatever, what that would 00:56:42.710 --> 00:56:47.389 be like. And maybe I'm just thinking too small 00:56:47.389 --> 00:56:51.949 -mindedly, but I think there is something about 00:56:51.949 --> 00:56:58.469 us that has worked in a super deep way. And it 00:56:58.469 --> 00:57:01.070 took evolution a lot of search space to get here. 00:57:01.530 --> 00:57:04.630 But I wouldn't discount it too easily. But don't 00:57:04.630 --> 00:57:06.429 you think that cave people would probably have 00:57:06.429 --> 00:57:10.130 those same logical conclusions? About life and 00:57:10.130 --> 00:57:12.090 sedentary lifestyle and sitting in front of a 00:57:12.090 --> 00:57:13.969 computer and not interacting with each other 00:57:13.969 --> 00:57:19.889 except through text? Well – I mean isn't that 00:57:19.889 --> 00:57:22.269 – like what you're saying is correct. How different 00:57:22.269 --> 00:57:25.070 do you think our motivations are today and kind 00:57:25.070 --> 00:57:28.030 of what really brings us genuine joy and how 00:57:28.030 --> 00:57:30.929 we're wired at some deep level differently than 00:57:30.929 --> 00:57:32.909 cave people? Clearly lots of other things have 00:57:32.909 --> 00:57:35.650 changed. We've got much better tools. But how 00:57:35.650 --> 00:57:38.030 different do you think it really is? I think 00:57:38.030 --> 00:57:41.829 – That's the problem is that genetically at the 00:57:41.829 --> 00:57:44.809 base level, there's not much difference and that 00:57:44.809 --> 00:57:49.550 these reward systems are all there. We interact 00:57:49.550 --> 00:57:54.389 with all of them, whether it's ego, lust, passion, 00:57:55.010 --> 00:57:58.849 fury, anger, jealousy, all these different things. 00:57:58.889 --> 00:58:00.909 And you think will be some people will upload 00:58:00.909 --> 00:58:04.599 and edit those out. Yes. Yeah, I think that our 00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:08.679 concern with losing this aspect of what it means 00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:12.000 to be a person, this like the idea that we should 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:14.260 always have conflict and struggle because conflict 00:58:14.260 --> 00:58:16.619 and struggle is how we facilitate progress, which 00:58:16.619 --> 00:58:20.300 is true. Right. And combating evil is how the 00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:22.940 good gets greater and stronger if the good wins. 00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:26.980 But my concern is that that is all predicated 00:58:26.980 --> 00:58:30.480 on the idea that the biological system that we 00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:36.800 have right now is. correct and optimal. And I 00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:39.559 think one of the things that we're dealing with, 00:58:39.559 --> 00:58:41.780 with the heightened states of depression and 00:58:41.780 --> 00:58:44.320 anxiety and the lack of meaning and existential 00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:47.500 angst that people experience, a lot of that is 00:58:47.500 --> 00:58:51.800 because the biological reality of being a human 00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:56.420 animal doesn't really integrate that well with 00:58:56.420 --> 00:58:59.280 this world that we've created. That's for sure. 00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:04.809 Yeah. And I wonder if the solution to that is 00:59:04.809 --> 00:59:09.530 not find ways to find meaning with the biological 00:59:09.530 --> 00:59:15.030 vessel that you've been given, but rather engineer 00:59:15.030 --> 00:59:19.909 those aspects that are problematic out of the 00:59:19.909 --> 00:59:23.730 system. To create a truly enlightened being. 00:59:23.869 --> 00:59:25.630 Like one of the things if you ask someone today, 00:59:25.789 --> 00:59:28.650 what are the odds that in three years there will 00:59:28.650 --> 00:59:32.630 be no war in the world? That's zero. Like nobody 00:59:32.630 --> 00:59:35.309 thinks. There's never been a time in human history 00:59:35.309 --> 00:59:37.929 where we haven't had war. If you had to say what 00:59:37.929 --> 00:59:41.739 is our number one problem as a species? Well, 00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:44.139 I would say our number one problem is is war. 00:59:44.380 --> 00:59:47.820 Our number one problem is this idea that it's 00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:50.880 OK to send massive groups of people who don't 00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:53.039 know each other to go murder massive groups of 00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:55.380 people that are somehow opposed because of the 00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:58.500 government, because of lines in the sand. That's 00:59:58.500 --> 01:00:00.400 clearly the same thing. It's an insane thing. 01:00:00.969 --> 01:00:02.730 How do you get rid of that? Well, one of the 01:00:02.730 --> 01:00:05.269 ways you get rid of that is to completely engineer 01:00:05.269 --> 01:00:08.590 out all the human reward systems that pertain 01:00:08.590 --> 01:00:12.969 to the acquisition of resources. So what's left 01:00:12.969 --> 01:00:15.750 at that point? Well, we're a new thing. I think 01:00:15.750 --> 01:00:17.349 we've become a new thing. And what does that 01:00:17.349 --> 01:00:20.469 thing do want? I think that new thing would probably 01:00:20.469 --> 01:00:22.989 want to interact with other new things that are 01:00:22.989 --> 01:00:26.670 even more advanced than it. I do believe that. 01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:32.599 But scientific curiosity can drive quite – that 01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:37.460 can be a great frontier for a long time. Yeah. 01:00:38.019 --> 01:00:39.860 I think it can be a great frontier for a long 01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:43.159 time as well. I just wonder if what we're seeing 01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:47.400 with the drop in testosterone, because of microplastics, 01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:49.739 which sort of just snuck up on us. We didn't 01:00:49.739 --> 01:00:51.440 even know that it was an issue until people started 01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:53.500 studying it. How certain is that at this point 01:00:53.500 --> 01:00:55.550 that that's – What's happening? I'm going to 01:00:55.550 --> 01:00:57.650 go study after this. It's a very good question. 01:00:57.829 --> 01:01:00.989 Dr. Shanna Swan believes that it's the primary 01:01:00.989 --> 01:01:05.190 driving factor. of the sort of drop in testosterone 01:01:05.190 --> 01:01:08.510 and all miscarriage issues and low birth weights. 01:01:08.750 --> 01:01:13.469 All those things seem to be a direct factor environmentally. 01:01:14.110 --> 01:01:17.190 I'm sure there's other factors too. The drop 01:01:17.190 --> 01:01:19.909 in testosterone, I mean, it's been shown that 01:01:19.909 --> 01:01:22.250 you can increase male's testosterone through 01:01:22.250 --> 01:01:25.110 resistance training and through making. There's 01:01:25.110 --> 01:01:27.550 certain things you can do. Like one of the big 01:01:27.550 --> 01:01:29.750 ones they found through a study in Japan is cold 01:01:29.750 --> 01:01:34.489 water immersion. before exercise radically increases 01:01:34.489 --> 01:01:38.269 testosterone. So cold water, immersion, and then 01:01:38.269 --> 01:01:40.929 exercise post that. I wonder why. Yeah, I don't 01:01:40.929 --> 01:01:44.570 know. Let's see if we can find that. But it's 01:01:44.570 --> 01:01:46.789 a fascinating field of study, but I think it 01:01:46.789 --> 01:01:49.010 has something to do with resilience and resistance 01:01:49.010 --> 01:01:51.349 and the fact that your body has to combat this 01:01:51.349 --> 01:01:55.550 external factor that's very extreme that causes 01:01:55.550 --> 01:01:59.369 the body to go into this state of... preservation 01:01:59.369 --> 01:02:02.710 and the the implementation of cold shock proteins 01:02:02.710 --> 01:02:05.869 and the reduction of inflammation which also 01:02:05.869 --> 01:02:08.670 enhances the body's endocrine system but then 01:02:08.670 --> 01:02:10.889 on top of that this imperative that you have 01:02:10.889 --> 01:02:14.210 to become more resilient to survive this external 01:02:14.210 --> 01:02:16.630 factor that you've introduced into your life 01:02:16.630 --> 01:02:22.789 every single day so there's ways obviously that 01:02:22.789 --> 01:02:26.849 you can make a human being more robust You know, 01:02:26.869 --> 01:02:28.130 we know that we can do that through strength 01:02:28.130 --> 01:02:30.550 training and that all that stuff actually does 01:02:30.550 --> 01:02:33.909 raise testosterone. Your diet can raise testosterone. 01:02:34.269 --> 01:02:38.829 And a poor diet will lower it and will hinder 01:02:38.829 --> 01:02:40.929 your integrin system, will hinder your ability 01:02:40.929 --> 01:02:44.469 to produce growth hormone, melatonin, all these 01:02:44.469 --> 01:02:47.570 different factors. That seems to be something 01:02:47.570 --> 01:02:50.789 that we can fix in terms or at least mitigate 01:02:50.789 --> 01:02:55.329 with decisions and choices and effort. But the 01:02:55.329 --> 01:02:58.710 fact that these petrochemical – like there's 01:02:58.710 --> 01:03:02.070 a graph that Dr. Shanna Swan has in her book 01:03:02.070 --> 01:03:05.929 that shows during the 1950s when they start using 01:03:05.929 --> 01:03:08.750 petrochemical products in everything, microwave, 01:03:09.050 --> 01:03:11.010 plastic, saran wrap, all this different stuff. 01:03:11.349 --> 01:03:15.150 There's a direct correlation between the implementation 01:03:15.150 --> 01:03:19.710 and the dip. And it all seems to line up like 01:03:19.710 --> 01:03:24.420 that seems to be a primary factor. Does that 01:03:24.420 --> 01:03:27.800 have an equivalent impact on like estrogen -related 01:03:27.800 --> 01:03:31.000 hormones? That's a good question. Some of them 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:34.659 actually – I know some of these chemicals that 01:03:34.659 --> 01:03:36.619 they're talking about actually increase estrogen 01:03:36.619 --> 01:03:40.679 in men. I don't know. But I do know that it increases 01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:45.219 miscarriages. So I just think it's overall disruptive 01:03:45.219 --> 01:03:47.780 to the human body. Definitely a societal -wide 01:03:47.780 --> 01:03:50.380 disruption of the endocrine system in a short 01:03:50.380 --> 01:03:53.400 period of time. It seems like a just bad and 01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:55.329 – Sure. Difficult to wrap our heads around. And 01:03:55.329 --> 01:03:59.429 then pollutants and environmental toxins on top 01:03:59.429 --> 01:04:01.590 of the pesticides and herbicides and all these 01:04:01.590 --> 01:04:03.730 other things and microplastics. There's a lot 01:04:03.730 --> 01:04:05.869 of factors that are leading our systems to not 01:04:05.869 --> 01:04:13.590 work well. But I just really wonder if this – 01:04:13.590 --> 01:04:16.369 are we just clinging on to this monkey body? 01:04:16.630 --> 01:04:18.510 Are we deciding that – I like my monkey body. 01:04:18.610 --> 01:04:22.929 I do too. Listen, I love it. But – I'm also I 01:04:22.929 --> 01:04:25.309 try to be very objective. And when I objectively 01:04:25.309 --> 01:04:28.289 look at it in terms of like, if you take where 01:04:28.289 --> 01:04:31.969 we are now and all of our problems and you look 01:04:31.969 --> 01:04:34.969 towards the future and like, what would be one 01:04:34.969 --> 01:04:38.449 way that you could mitigate a lot of these? And 01:04:38.449 --> 01:04:40.289 well, it would be the implementation of some 01:04:40.289 --> 01:04:43.670 sort of a telepathic technology where. You know, 01:04:43.690 --> 01:04:46.909 you couldn't just text someone or tweet at someone 01:04:46.909 --> 01:04:49.230 something mean because you would literally feel 01:04:49.230 --> 01:04:52.469 what they feel when you put that energy out there 01:04:52.469 --> 01:04:58.269 and you would be repulsed. Yeah. And then violence 01:04:58.269 --> 01:05:01.289 would be if you were committing violence on someone 01:05:01.289 --> 01:05:05.730 and you literally felt the reaction of that violence 01:05:05.730 --> 01:05:09.550 in your own being. That's fascinating. You would 01:05:09.550 --> 01:05:13.159 also have no motivation for violence. If we had 01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:17.059 no aggressive tendencies, no primal chimpanzee 01:05:17.059 --> 01:05:20.380 tendencies. You know, it's true that violence 01:05:20.380 --> 01:05:22.719 in the world has obviously gone down a lot over 01:05:22.719 --> 01:05:25.920 the decades. But emotional violence is up a lot. 01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:27.900 And the internet has been horrible for that. 01:05:28.980 --> 01:05:30.800 I'm not going to walk over there and punch you 01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:32.159 because you look like a big strong guy. You're 01:05:32.159 --> 01:05:33.960 going to punch me back. And also there's a societal 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:37.630 convention not to do that. If I didn't know you, 01:05:37.690 --> 01:05:39.829 I might like send a mean tweet about you. And 01:05:39.829 --> 01:05:44.210 I feel nothing on that. And clearly that has 01:05:44.210 --> 01:05:48.289 become like a mega epidemic in society that we 01:05:48.289 --> 01:05:54.369 did not evolve the biological constraints on 01:05:54.369 --> 01:06:01.210 somehow. And I'm actually very. worried about 01:06:01.210 --> 01:06:03.869 how much that's already destabilized us and made 01:06:03.869 --> 01:06:06.670 us all miserable. It's certainly accentuated 01:06:06.670 --> 01:06:10.269 it. It's exacerbated all of our problems. I mean, 01:06:10.289 --> 01:06:12.210 if you read Jonathan Haidt's book, The Coddling 01:06:12.210 --> 01:06:13.590 of the American Mind, have you read it? Great 01:06:13.590 --> 01:06:15.550 book. Yeah, it's a great book. And it's very 01:06:15.550 --> 01:06:18.449 damaging to women, particularly young girls. 01:06:18.550 --> 01:06:20.510 Young girls growing up, there's a direct correlation 01:06:20.510 --> 01:06:23.630 between the invention of social media, the introduction 01:06:23.630 --> 01:06:28.119 to the iPhone, self -harm, suicide. Online bullying. 01:06:28.840 --> 01:06:31.300 People have always talked shit about people when 01:06:31.300 --> 01:06:33.440 no one's around. The fact that they're doing 01:06:33.440 --> 01:06:38.039 it now openly to harm people. Horrible, obviously. 01:06:38.079 --> 01:06:40.579 I think it's super damaging to men too. Maybe 01:06:40.579 --> 01:06:42.420 they just talk about it less, but I don't think 01:06:42.420 --> 01:06:44.579 any of us are like... Yeah. Set up for this. 01:06:44.599 --> 01:06:47.119 No, no one set up for it. And, you know, I think 01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:49.679 famous people know that more than anyone. We 01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:51.880 all get used to it. Yeah. You just get numb to 01:06:51.880 --> 01:06:54.639 it. Or if you're wise, you don't engage. You 01:06:54.639 --> 01:06:56.679 know, I don't engage. I don't even have any apps 01:06:56.679 --> 01:06:59.039 on my new phone. Yeah. I've decided, I got a 01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:01.199 new phone and I decided, okay, nothing. That's 01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:03.260 really smart. No Twitter. So I have a separate 01:07:03.260 --> 01:07:06.579 phone that if I have to post something, I pick 01:07:06.579 --> 01:07:09.500 up. But all I get on my new phone is text messages. 01:07:10.179 --> 01:07:13.500 And is that more? Just to keep your mind pure 01:07:13.500 --> 01:07:17.559 and unpolluted. And not tempt myself. Do you 01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:19.440 know how many fucking times I've got up to go 01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:21.039 to the bathroom first thing in the morning and 01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:24.099 spent an hour just sitting on the toilet scrolling 01:07:24.099 --> 01:07:27.159 through Instagram for nothing? It does zero for 01:07:27.159 --> 01:07:29.800 me. And there's this thought that I'm going to 01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:33.760 get something out of it. I was thinking actually 01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:37.159 just yesterday about how... You know, we all 01:07:37.159 --> 01:07:39.159 have talked for so long about these algorithmic 01:07:39.159 --> 01:07:41.199 feeds are going to manipulate us in these big 01:07:41.199 --> 01:07:45.679 ways and that will happen. But in the small ways 01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:48.639 already where like scrolling Instagram is not 01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:51.340 even that fulfilling. Like you finish that hour 01:07:51.340 --> 01:07:52.940 and you're like, I know that was a waste of my 01:07:52.940 --> 01:07:56.960 time. But it was like over the threshold where 01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:59.099 you couldn't quite. It's hard to put the phone 01:07:59.099 --> 01:08:01.159 down. Right. You're just hoping that the next 01:08:01.159 --> 01:08:03.119 one's going to be interesting. And every now 01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:07.559 and then, the problem is every 30th or 40th reel 01:08:07.559 --> 01:08:10.619 that I click on is wild. I wonder, by the way, 01:08:10.659 --> 01:08:14.320 if that's more powerful than if everyone was 01:08:14.320 --> 01:08:19.119 great. Sure. You have to mine for gold. You don't 01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:22.159 just go out and pick it like daisies. If the 01:08:22.159 --> 01:08:24.319 algorithm is intentionally feeding you some shit 01:08:24.319 --> 01:08:27.930 along the way. Yeah. Well, there's just a lot 01:08:27.930 --> 01:08:31.090 of shit out there, unfortunately. But it's it's 01:08:31.090 --> 01:08:33.649 just in terms of, you know, I was talking to 01:08:33.649 --> 01:08:36.550 Sean O'Malley, who's this UFC fighter who's, 01:08:36.550 --> 01:08:38.470 you know, obviously has a very strong mind, really 01:08:38.470 --> 01:08:40.369 interesting guy. But one of the things that Sean 01:08:40.369 --> 01:08:43.369 said is like, I get this like low level anxiety 01:08:43.369 --> 01:08:46.369 from scrolling through things. And I don't know 01:08:46.369 --> 01:08:49.699 why. Like, what is that? And I think it's. Part 01:08:49.699 --> 01:08:52.579 of the logical mind realizes this is a massive 01:08:52.579 --> 01:08:55.500 waste of your resources. I also deleted a bunch 01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:58.359 of that stuff off my phone because I just didn't 01:08:58.359 --> 01:08:59.920 have the self -control. I mean, I had the self 01:08:59.920 --> 01:09:02.520 -control to delete it, but not to stop once I 01:09:02.520 --> 01:09:06.779 was scrolling through. And so I think we're just 01:09:06.779 --> 01:09:11.979 like, yeah, we're getting attention hacked in 01:09:11.979 --> 01:09:14.779 some ways. There's some good to it too, but we 01:09:14.779 --> 01:09:19.279 don't yet have the stuff in place. the tools, 01:09:19.340 --> 01:09:22.239 the societal norms, whatever, to modulate it 01:09:22.239 --> 01:09:25.260 well. Right. And we're not designed for it. Certainly. 01:09:25.260 --> 01:09:28.699 This is a completely new technology that, again, 01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:32.100 hijacks our human reward systems and hijacks 01:09:32.100 --> 01:09:36.560 all of the checks and balances that are in place 01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:39.630 for communication, which... historically has 01:09:39.630 --> 01:09:41.829 been one -on -one historically communication 01:09:41.829 --> 01:09:44.670 has been one person to another and when people 01:09:44.670 --> 01:09:47.649 write letters to each other it's generally things 01:09:47.649 --> 01:09:51.069 like if someone writes a love letter or you know 01:09:51.069 --> 01:09:53.710 they miss you like yeah they're writing this 01:09:53.710 --> 01:09:56.189 thing where they're kind of exposing a thing 01:09:56.189 --> 01:09:58.149 that maybe they have a difficulty in expressing 01:09:58.149 --> 01:10:00.949 in front of you and it was not it did you know 01:10:00.949 --> 01:10:03.609 generally unless the person was a psycho they're 01:10:03.609 --> 01:10:07.430 not hateful letters Whereas the ability to just 01:10:07.430 --> 01:10:09.350 communicate, fuck that guy, I hope he gets hit 01:10:09.350 --> 01:10:14.810 by a bus, is so simple and easy and you don't 01:10:14.810 --> 01:10:17.970 experience. Twitter seems to be particularly 01:10:17.970 --> 01:10:22.170 horrible for this as the mechanics work. It really 01:10:22.170 --> 01:10:25.229 rewards in ways that I don't think anybody fully 01:10:25.229 --> 01:10:27.369 understands that like taps into something about 01:10:27.369 --> 01:10:32.710 human psychology. But that's kind of like, that's 01:10:32.710 --> 01:10:36.399 how you get engagement. followers that's how 01:10:36.399 --> 01:10:39.020 you get what like you know the dopamine hits 01:10:39.020 --> 01:10:46.619 or whatever and like the people who i know that 01:10:46.619 --> 01:10:49.319 spend all day on twitter more of them are unhappy 01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:52.319 about it than happy oh yeah they're the most 01:10:52.319 --> 01:10:54.819 unhappy i mean there's quite a few people that 01:10:54.819 --> 01:10:57.319 i follow that i only follow because they're crazy 01:10:57.319 --> 01:10:59.800 and then i'll go and check in on them and see 01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:01.979 what the fuck they're tweeting about and Some 01:11:01.979 --> 01:11:04.100 of them are on there eight, ten hours a day. 01:11:04.220 --> 01:11:08.500 I'll see tweets all day long. And I know that 01:11:08.500 --> 01:11:10.640 person cannot be happy. They are unhappy and 01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:13.659 they cannot stop. They can't stop. And it seems 01:11:13.659 --> 01:11:20.640 like it's their life. And they get meaning out 01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:24.819 of it in terms of reinforcement. They get short 01:11:24.819 --> 01:11:28.180 term. Yeah. I think maybe each day you go to 01:11:28.180 --> 01:11:29.840 bed feeling like you accomplished something and 01:11:29.840 --> 01:11:31.520 got your dopamine. And at the end of each decade, 01:11:31.560 --> 01:11:33.229 you probably are like. where that decade go. 01:11:33.329 --> 01:11:34.710 I was talking to a friend of mine who was having 01:11:34.710 --> 01:11:36.109 a real problem with it. He's saying he would 01:11:36.109 --> 01:11:38.130 be literally walking down the street and he'd 01:11:38.130 --> 01:11:40.069 have to check his phone to see who's replying. 01:11:40.170 --> 01:11:41.869 And he wasn't even looking where he's walking. 01:11:42.369 --> 01:11:45.189 It was just like caught up in the anxiety of 01:11:45.189 --> 01:11:47.189 these exchanges. And it's not because of the 01:11:47.189 --> 01:11:49.590 nice things people say. No, no, no, no. It's 01:11:49.590 --> 01:11:52.829 all. And with him, he was recognizing that, you 01:11:52.829 --> 01:11:54.930 know, he was dunking on people and then seeing 01:11:54.930 --> 01:11:59.100 people respond to the dunking. Yeah. I stopped 01:11:59.100 --> 01:12:00.979 doing that a long time ago. I stopped interacting 01:12:00.979 --> 01:12:03.020 with people on Twitter in a negative way. I just 01:12:03.020 --> 01:12:05.560 won't do it. Even if I disagree with someone, 01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:08.399 I'll say something as peacefully as possible. 01:12:08.439 --> 01:12:10.260 I have like more of an internet troll streak 01:12:10.260 --> 01:12:13.460 than I would like to admit. And so I try to just 01:12:13.460 --> 01:12:15.680 like not give myself too much temptation, but 01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:18.420 I slip up sometimes. Yeah. It's so tempting. 01:12:18.579 --> 01:12:21.199 Totally. It's so tempting and it's fun. It's 01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:24.500 fun to say something shitty. I mean, again, whatever 01:12:24.500 --> 01:12:26.279 this biological system we were talking about 01:12:26.279 --> 01:12:29.680 earlier, that gets a positive reward in the moment. 01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:32.960 You know there's reactions. You say something 01:12:32.960 --> 01:12:35.180 outrageous and someone's going to react. And 01:12:35.180 --> 01:12:38.399 that reaction is like energy. And there's all 01:12:38.399 --> 01:12:40.939 these other human beings engaging with your idea. 01:12:41.500 --> 01:12:46.960 But ultimately, it's just not productive for 01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:51.439 most people. And it's psychologically. It's just. 01:12:52.170 --> 01:12:54.550 fraught with peril there's just so much going 01:12:54.550 --> 01:12:57.130 on i don't know anybody who engages all day long 01:12:57.130 --> 01:13:03.329 that's happy certainly not i don't like i mean 01:13:03.329 --> 01:13:05.369 i think i've watched it like destroy is too strong 01:13:05.369 --> 01:13:08.789 of a word but like knock off track the careers 01:13:08.789 --> 01:13:12.350 or lives or happiness or human relationships 01:13:12.350 --> 01:13:16.069 of people that are like good smart conscientious 01:13:16.069 --> 01:13:19.310 people yeah just like got couldn't fight this 01:13:19.310 --> 01:13:22.130 demon yeah like hacked there and kovid really 01:13:22.130 --> 01:13:24.689 accentuated that because people were alone and 01:13:24.689 --> 01:13:28.409 isolated and that made it even worse because 01:13:28.409 --> 01:13:32.550 then they felt they felt even better saying shitty 01:13:32.550 --> 01:13:35.609 things to people i'm unhappy i'm yeah even worse 01:13:35.609 --> 01:13:37.890 things about you and then there was a psychological 01:13:37.890 --> 01:13:40.689 aspect of it like the angst that came from being 01:13:40.689 --> 01:13:44.109 socially isolated and terrified about this invisible 01:13:44.109 --> 01:13:47.369 disease it's going to kill us all And, you know, 01:13:47.390 --> 01:13:50.229 and so you have this like, and then you're interacting 01:13:50.229 --> 01:13:51.590 with people on Twitter and then you're caught 01:13:51.590 --> 01:13:53.949 up in that anxiety and you're doing it all day. 01:13:54.050 --> 01:13:56.609 And I know quite a few people, especially comedians, 01:13:56.670 --> 01:14:00.229 that really lost their minds and lost the respect 01:14:00.229 --> 01:14:03.189 of their peers by doing that. I have a lot of 01:14:03.189 --> 01:14:05.090 sympathy for people who lost their minds during 01:14:05.090 --> 01:14:08.750 COVID because what a natural thing for us all 01:14:08.750 --> 01:14:11.510 to go through. Isolation was just brutal. But 01:14:11.510 --> 01:14:14.850 a lot of people did. And I don't think the Internet. 01:14:15.630 --> 01:14:17.829 And particularly not the kind of like social 01:14:17.829 --> 01:14:20.149 dynamics of things like Twitter. I don't think 01:14:20.149 --> 01:14:22.869 that like brought out anyone's best. No. Well, 01:14:22.909 --> 01:14:27.390 I mean some people I think if they're not – they're 01:14:27.390 --> 01:14:29.350 not inclined to be shitty to people. I think 01:14:29.350 --> 01:14:33.170 some people did seek comfort and they did interact 01:14:33.170 --> 01:14:35.770 with people in positive ways. I see there's plenty 01:14:35.770 --> 01:14:38.350 of positive – I think the thing is the negative 01:14:38.350 --> 01:14:42.029 interactions are so much more impactful. Yeah. 01:14:42.090 --> 01:14:44.470 Look, I think there are – A lot of people who 01:14:44.470 --> 01:14:46.210 use these systems for wonderful things. I didn't 01:14:46.210 --> 01:14:48.550 mean to imply that's not the case. But that's 01:14:48.550 --> 01:14:52.270 not what drives people's emotions after getting 01:14:52.270 --> 01:14:54.130 off the platform at the end of the day. Right. 01:14:54.270 --> 01:14:57.489 Right. And it's also probably not. If you looked 01:14:57.489 --> 01:14:59.510 at a pie chart of the amount of interactions 01:14:59.510 --> 01:15:03.350 on Twitter, I would say a lot of them are shitting 01:15:03.350 --> 01:15:05.569 on people and being angry about things. How many 01:15:05.569 --> 01:15:07.590 of the people that you know that use Twitter 01:15:07.590 --> 01:15:09.949 those eight or ten hours a day are just saying 01:15:09.949 --> 01:15:12.189 wonderful things about other people all day versus 01:15:12.189 --> 01:15:16.609 the virulent? Very few. Yeah. Very few. I don't 01:15:16.609 --> 01:15:21.569 know any of them. I know. But then again, I wonder 01:15:21.569 --> 01:15:25.569 with the implementation of some new technology 01:15:25.569 --> 01:15:28.670 that makes communication a very different thing 01:15:28.670 --> 01:15:30.430 than what we're currently doing. What we're doing 01:15:30.430 --> 01:15:34.310 now with communication is less immersive than 01:15:34.310 --> 01:15:36.789 communicating one -on -one. You and I are talking. 01:15:36.890 --> 01:15:39.189 We're looking into each other's eyes. We're getting 01:15:39.189 --> 01:15:41.130 social cues. We're smiling at each other. We're 01:15:41.130 --> 01:15:45.560 laughing. It's a very natural way to talk. I 01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:48.420 wonder if through the implementation of technology, 01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:54.000 if it becomes even more immersive than a one 01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:57.159 -on -one conversation, even more interactive, 01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:01.159 and you will understand even more about the way 01:16:01.159 --> 01:16:04.439 a person feels about what you say, about that 01:16:04.439 --> 01:16:08.739 person's memory, that person's life, that person's 01:16:08.739 --> 01:16:13.239 history. their education, how it comes out of 01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:16.479 their mind, how their mind interacts with your 01:16:16.479 --> 01:16:19.859 mind, and you see them. You really see them. 01:16:20.199 --> 01:16:25.260 I wonder if what we're experiencing now is just 01:16:25.260 --> 01:16:27.659 like the first time people invented guns, they 01:16:27.659 --> 01:16:30.260 just started shooting at things. Yeah. If you 01:16:30.260 --> 01:16:33.180 can feel what I feel when you say something mean 01:16:33.180 --> 01:16:36.220 to me or nice to me, that's clearly going to 01:16:36.220 --> 01:16:41.069 change. What you decide to say? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 01:16:41.149 --> 01:16:42.989 Unless you're a psycho. Unless you're a psycho. 01:16:43.069 --> 01:16:46.029 And then what causes someone to be a psycho? 01:16:46.069 --> 01:16:50.470 And can that be engineered out? Imagine what 01:16:50.470 --> 01:16:53.069 we're talking about when we're dealing with the 01:16:53.069 --> 01:16:55.550 human mind. We're dealing with various diseases, 01:16:55.689 --> 01:17:01.189 bipolar, schizophrenia. Imagine a world where 01:17:01.189 --> 01:17:05.590 we can find the root cause of those things and 01:17:05.590 --> 01:17:09.329 through. coding and some sort of an implementation 01:17:09.329 --> 01:17:15.050 of technology that elevates dopamine and serotonin 01:17:15.050 --> 01:17:17.989 and does some things to people that eliminates 01:17:17.989 --> 01:17:22.649 all of those problems and allows people to communicate 01:17:22.649 --> 01:17:28.130 in a very pure way. It sounds great. It sounds 01:17:28.130 --> 01:17:29.250 great, but you're not going to have any rock 01:17:29.250 --> 01:17:34.130 and roll. Stand -up comedy will die. You'll have 01:17:34.130 --> 01:17:37.229 no violent movies. You know, there's a lot of 01:17:37.229 --> 01:17:38.850 things that are going to go out the window. But 01:17:38.850 --> 01:17:41.029 maybe that is also part of the process of our 01:17:41.029 --> 01:17:46.470 evolution to the next stage of existence. Maybe. 01:17:46.590 --> 01:17:50.409 I feel genuinely confused on this. Well, I think 01:17:50.409 --> 01:17:52.470 you should be. We're going to find out. Yeah. 01:17:52.550 --> 01:17:56.170 I mean, to be sure. That's insane. But I don't 01:17:56.170 --> 01:17:57.869 even have like. Hubris beyond belief. Right. 01:17:58.109 --> 01:18:01.789 I mean, you just you from the. When did OpenAI. 01:18:02.149 --> 01:18:04.810 When did you first start this project? All right. 01:18:05.100 --> 01:18:07.439 Like the very beginning, end of 2015, early 2016. 01:18:07.899 --> 01:18:11.359 And when you initially started this project, 01:18:11.699 --> 01:18:17.000 what kind of timeline did you have in mind? And 01:18:17.000 --> 01:18:19.439 has it stayed on that timeline or is it just 01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:24.659 wildly out of control? I remember talking with 01:18:24.659 --> 01:18:27.239 John Schulman, one of our co -founders, early 01:18:27.239 --> 01:18:29.100 on. And he was like, yeah, I think it's going 01:18:29.100 --> 01:18:31.180 to be about a 15 -year project. And I was like, 01:18:31.220 --> 01:18:34.539 yeah, that sounds about right to me. I've always 01:18:34.539 --> 01:18:37.159 sort of thought since then, now, I no longer 01:18:37.159 --> 01:18:39.800 think of like AGI as quite the endpoint, but 01:18:39.800 --> 01:18:41.960 to get to the point where we like accomplish 01:18:41.960 --> 01:18:45.359 the thing we set out to accomplish, you know, 01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:49.140 that would take us to like 2030, 2031. That has 01:18:49.140 --> 01:18:54.520 felt to me like all the way through kind of a 01:18:54.520 --> 01:18:57.880 reasonable estimate with huge error bars. And 01:18:57.880 --> 01:19:00.760 I kind of think we're on the trajectory I sort 01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:04.149 of would have assumed. And what did you think 01:19:04.149 --> 01:19:10.449 the impact on society would be? When you first 01:19:10.449 --> 01:19:13.090 started doing this and you said, okay, if we 01:19:13.090 --> 01:19:17.270 are successful and we do create some massively 01:19:17.270 --> 01:19:22.010 advanced AGI, what is the implementation and 01:19:22.010 --> 01:19:26.840 what is the impact on society? Did you sit there 01:19:26.840 --> 01:19:30.399 and have a graph? You had the pros on one side, 01:19:30.439 --> 01:19:33.539 the cons on the other. Did you just sort of abstractly 01:19:33.539 --> 01:19:37.020 consider? Well, we definitely talked a lot about 01:19:37.020 --> 01:19:42.279 the cons. Many of us were super worried about, 01:19:42.399 --> 01:19:47.500 and still are, about safety and alignment. And 01:19:47.500 --> 01:19:50.060 if we build these systems, we can all see the 01:19:50.060 --> 01:19:52.760 great future. That's easy to imagine. If something 01:19:52.760 --> 01:19:54.439 goes horribly wrong, it's like really horribly 01:19:54.439 --> 01:19:58.199 wrong. And so there was a lot of discussion about, 01:19:58.260 --> 01:20:01.020 and really a big part of the founding spirit 01:20:01.020 --> 01:20:03.600 of this is like, how are we going to solve this 01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:06.300 safety problem? What does that even mean? One 01:20:06.300 --> 01:20:08.779 of the things that we believe is that the greatest 01:20:08.779 --> 01:20:10.800 minds in the world cannot sit there and solve 01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:13.979 that in a vacuum. You've got to like have contact 01:20:13.979 --> 01:20:15.619 with reality. You've got to see where the technology 01:20:15.619 --> 01:20:19.460 goes. Practice plays out in a stranger way than 01:20:19.460 --> 01:20:22.079 theory. And that's certainly proven true for 01:20:22.079 --> 01:20:25.979 us. But we had a long list of, well, I don't 01:20:25.979 --> 01:20:27.220 know if we had a long list of cons. We had a 01:20:27.220 --> 01:20:30.680 very intense list of cons because, you know, 01:20:30.680 --> 01:20:32.720 there's like all of the last decades of sci -fi 01:20:32.720 --> 01:20:35.619 telling you about how this goes wrong and why 01:20:35.619 --> 01:20:37.039 you're supposed to shoot me right now. Yeah. 01:20:38.500 --> 01:20:42.199 I'm sure you've seen the John Connor chat GPT 01:20:42.199 --> 01:20:46.989 memes. I haven't. What is it? It's like John 01:20:46.989 --> 01:20:49.770 Connor from the Terminator, the kid, looking 01:20:49.770 --> 01:20:56.789 at you when you open up chat GPT. Yeah. So that 01:20:56.789 --> 01:21:00.010 stuff we were very clear in our minds on. Now, 01:21:00.029 --> 01:21:02.850 I think we understand there's a lot of work to 01:21:02.850 --> 01:21:06.069 do, but we understand more about how to make 01:21:06.069 --> 01:21:11.239 AI safe in the... AI safety gets overloaded. 01:21:11.239 --> 01:21:13.359 Does it mean don't say something people find 01:21:13.359 --> 01:21:15.260 offensive or does it mean don't destroy all of 01:21:15.260 --> 01:21:19.479 humanity or some continuum? And I think the word 01:21:19.479 --> 01:21:22.060 has gotten overloaded. But in terms of the not 01:21:22.060 --> 01:21:25.680 destroy all of humanity version of it, we have 01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:28.600 a lot of work to do. But I think we have finally 01:21:28.600 --> 01:21:32.060 more ideas about what can work. And given the 01:21:32.060 --> 01:21:34.319 way the systems are going, we have a lot more 01:21:34.319 --> 01:21:36.539 opportunities available to us to solve it than 01:21:36.539 --> 01:21:39.760 I thought we would have. Given the direction 01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:41.420 that we initially thought the technology was 01:21:41.420 --> 01:21:44.199 going to go. So that's good. On the positive 01:21:44.199 --> 01:21:48.279 side, the thing that I was most excited about 01:21:48.279 --> 01:21:52.279 then and remain most excited about now is what 01:21:52.279 --> 01:21:56.920 if this system can dramatically increase the 01:21:56.920 --> 01:22:00.319 rate of scientific knowledge in society? That 01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:05.500 is a, I think that kind of like all real sustainable 01:22:05.500 --> 01:22:09.659 economic growth. the future getting better, progress 01:22:09.659 --> 01:22:13.859 in some sense comes from increased scientific 01:22:13.859 --> 01:22:16.979 and technological capacity. So we can solve all 01:22:16.979 --> 01:22:19.520 the problems. And if the AI can help us do that, 01:22:19.680 --> 01:22:21.800 that's always been the thing I've been most excited 01:22:21.800 --> 01:22:25.000 about. Well, it certainly seems like that is 01:22:25.000 --> 01:22:27.880 the greatest potential, greatest positive potential 01:22:27.880 --> 01:22:33.340 of AI. It is to solve a lot of the problems that 01:22:33.340 --> 01:22:35.859 human beings have had forever. A lot of the societal 01:22:35.859 --> 01:22:39.279 problems. I mean, that's what I was talking about 01:22:39.279 --> 01:22:42.779 at an AI president. I'm kind of not joking because 01:22:42.779 --> 01:22:46.159 I feel like if something was hyper intelligent 01:22:46.159 --> 01:22:49.260 and aware of all the variables with no human 01:22:49.260 --> 01:22:54.479 bias and no incentives, no other than here's 01:22:54.479 --> 01:22:57.500 your program, the greater good for the community 01:22:57.500 --> 01:23:01.000 of the United States and the greater good for 01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:03.800 that community as it interacts with the rest 01:23:03.800 --> 01:23:10.460 of the world. The elimination of these dictators, 01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:15.460 whether they're elected or non -elected, who 01:23:15.460 --> 01:23:20.140 impose their will on the population because they 01:23:20.140 --> 01:23:22.579 have a vested interest in protecting special 01:23:22.579 --> 01:23:27.460 interest groups and industry. I think as long 01:23:27.460 --> 01:23:30.619 as – the thing that I find scary when you say 01:23:30.619 --> 01:23:34.279 that is it does – it feels like it's humanity 01:23:34.279 --> 01:23:38.279 not in control. And I reflexively don't like 01:23:38.279 --> 01:23:44.260 that. But if it's instead like it is the collective 01:23:44.260 --> 01:23:47.159 will of humanity being expressed without the 01:23:47.159 --> 01:23:49.420 mistranslation and corrupting influences along 01:23:49.420 --> 01:23:52.460 the way, then I can see it. Is that possible? 01:23:52.699 --> 01:23:55.479 It seems like it would be. It seems like if it 01:23:55.479 --> 01:23:57.819 was programmed in that regard to do the greater 01:23:57.819 --> 01:24:02.880 good for humanity and take into account the values 01:24:02.880 --> 01:24:06.210 of humanity, the needs of humanity. There's something 01:24:06.210 --> 01:24:08.270 about the phrase, do the greater good for humanity. 01:24:08.329 --> 01:24:10.090 I know, it's terrifying. It's very Orwellian. 01:24:10.130 --> 01:24:14.010 All of it is. But also, so is artificial general 01:24:14.010 --> 01:24:16.149 intelligence. For sure, for sure. Open the door 01:24:16.149 --> 01:24:18.750 now. I wish I had worked on something that was 01:24:18.750 --> 01:24:22.069 less morally fraught. But do you? Because it's 01:24:22.069 --> 01:24:25.789 really exciting. I mean, I cannot imagine a cooler 01:24:25.789 --> 01:24:27.909 thing to work on. I feel unbelievably, I feel 01:24:27.909 --> 01:24:29.470 like the luckiest person on earth. That's awesome. 01:24:29.649 --> 01:24:34.279 But it is not, it's not on easy mode. Let's say 01:24:34.279 --> 01:24:36.920 that this is not life on easy mode. No, no, no, 01:24:36.960 --> 01:24:41.060 no. I mean, you are at the forefront of one of 01:24:41.060 --> 01:24:44.239 the most spectacular changes in human history. 01:24:44.300 --> 01:24:49.220 And I would say as no, I would say more spectacular 01:24:49.220 --> 01:24:52.619 than the implementation of the Internet. I think 01:24:52.619 --> 01:24:55.560 the implementation of the Internet was the first 01:24:55.560 --> 01:24:59.180 baby steps of this and that artificial general 01:24:59.180 --> 01:25:02.939 intelligence is. Yeah. It is the internet on 01:25:02.939 --> 01:25:09.619 steroids. It's the internet in hyperspace. What 01:25:09.619 --> 01:25:11.319 I would say is it's the next step and there will 01:25:11.319 --> 01:25:13.100 be more steps after, but it's our most exciting 01:25:13.100 --> 01:25:17.760 step yet. Yeah. My wonder is what are those next 01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:19.960 steps after? Isn't that so exciting to think 01:25:19.960 --> 01:25:22.180 about? It's very exciting. I think we're the 01:25:22.180 --> 01:25:25.520 last people. I really do. I think we're the last 01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:27.779 of the biological people with all the biological 01:25:27.779 --> 01:25:31.750 problems. I think there's... And do you feel 01:25:31.750 --> 01:25:35.010 excited about that? I just think that's just 01:25:35.010 --> 01:25:37.130 what it is. You're just fine with it? It is what 01:25:37.130 --> 01:25:41.439 it is, you know? I mean, that... I don't think 01:25:41.439 --> 01:25:43.380 you can control it at this point other than some 01:25:43.380 --> 01:25:46.039 massive natural disaster that resets us back 01:25:46.039 --> 01:25:48.300 to the Stone Age, which is also something we 01:25:48.300 --> 01:25:49.920 should be very concerned with because it seems 01:25:49.920 --> 01:25:51.760 like that happens a lot. We're not aware of it 01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:54.140 because the timeline of a human body is so small. 01:25:54.479 --> 01:25:57.180 The timeline of the human existence as a person 01:25:57.180 --> 01:26:00.220 is 100 years if you're lucky. But yet the timeline 01:26:00.220 --> 01:26:03.560 of the earth is billions of years. And if you 01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:07.239 look at how many times. Life on Earth has been 01:26:07.239 --> 01:26:11.279 reset by comets slamming into the Earth and just 01:26:11.279 --> 01:26:15.380 completely eliminating all technological advancement. 01:26:15.439 --> 01:26:18.479 It seems like it's happened multiple times in 01:26:18.479 --> 01:26:24.180 recorded history. I always think we don't think 01:26:24.180 --> 01:26:30.319 about that quite enough. We talked about the 01:26:30.319 --> 01:26:32.000 simulation hypothesis earlier. It's had this 01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:34.039 big resurgence in the tech industry recently. 01:26:34.119 --> 01:26:36.329 One of the things... One of the new takes on 01:26:36.329 --> 01:26:38.289 it as we get closer to AGI is that, you know, 01:26:38.289 --> 01:26:41.750 if ancestors were simulating us, the time they'd 01:26:41.750 --> 01:26:43.710 want to simulate again and again is right up 01:26:43.710 --> 01:26:46.550 to the, you know, right up, right, the lead up 01:26:46.550 --> 01:26:49.090 to the creation of AGI. Yeah. So it seems very 01:26:49.090 --> 01:26:50.609 crazy we're living through this time, but it's 01:26:50.609 --> 01:26:52.949 not a coincidence at all. You know, this is the 01:26:52.949 --> 01:26:55.489 time that is after we had enough cell phones 01:26:55.489 --> 01:26:57.489 out in the world, like recording tons of video 01:26:57.489 --> 01:26:59.289 to train the video model of the world that's 01:26:59.289 --> 01:27:01.489 all being like jacked into us now via brain implants 01:27:01.489 --> 01:27:04.260 or whatever. And before. Everything goes really 01:27:04.260 --> 01:27:06.720 crazy with AGI. And it's also this interesting 01:27:06.720 --> 01:27:10.479 time to simulate, like, can we get through? Does 01:27:10.479 --> 01:27:12.579 the asteroid come right before we get there for 01:27:12.579 --> 01:27:14.220 dramatic tension? Like, do we figure out how 01:27:14.220 --> 01:27:15.979 to make this safe? Do we figure out how to societally 01:27:15.979 --> 01:27:18.720 agree on it? So that's led to like a lot more 01:27:18.720 --> 01:27:21.000 people believing it than before, I think. Yeah, 01:27:21.140 --> 01:27:25.680 for sure. And again, I think this is just where 01:27:25.680 --> 01:27:28.340 it's going. I mean, I don't know if that's a 01:27:28.340 --> 01:27:30.840 good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing. 01:27:30.899 --> 01:27:32.939 But it's certainly better to live now. I would 01:27:32.939 --> 01:27:36.699 not want to live in the 1800s and be in a covered 01:27:36.699 --> 01:27:38.800 wagon trying to make my way across the country. 01:27:39.239 --> 01:27:40.880 Yeah, we got the most exciting time in history 01:27:40.880 --> 01:27:43.859 yet. It's the best. It's the best. But it also 01:27:43.859 --> 01:27:46.560 has the most problems, the most social problems, 01:27:46.800 --> 01:27:50.539 the most awareness of social, environmental, 01:27:50.840 --> 01:27:54.260 infrastructure, the issues that we have. We get 01:27:54.260 --> 01:27:59.220 to go solve them. Yeah. And I, intuitively, I 01:27:59.220 --> 01:28:04.020 think I feel something somewhat different than 01:28:04.020 --> 01:28:07.600 you, which is I think humans in something close 01:28:07.600 --> 01:28:12.920 to this form are going to be around for a lot 01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:15.939 longer than, I don't think we're the last humans. 01:28:16.260 --> 01:28:23.439 How long do you think we have? Like longer than 01:28:23.439 --> 01:28:25.859 a time frame I can reason about. Really? Now, 01:28:25.880 --> 01:28:28.520 there may be, like, I could totally imagine a 01:28:28.520 --> 01:28:32.659 world where some people decide to merge and go 01:28:32.659 --> 01:28:35.979 off exploring the universe with AI and there's 01:28:35.979 --> 01:28:38.520 a big universe out there. But, like, can I really 01:28:38.520 --> 01:28:40.819 imagine a world where, short of a natural disaster, 01:28:41.079 --> 01:28:44.359 there are not humans pretty similar to humans 01:28:44.359 --> 01:28:48.159 from today on Earth doing human -like things? 01:28:48.930 --> 01:28:51.729 And the sort of spirit of humanity merged into 01:28:51.729 --> 01:28:54.390 these other things that are out there doing their 01:28:54.390 --> 01:28:57.750 thing in the universe. It's very hard for me 01:28:57.750 --> 01:29:01.850 to actually see that happening. And maybe that 01:29:01.850 --> 01:29:03.510 means I'm going to turn out to be a dinosaur 01:29:03.510 --> 01:29:05.329 and lot I horribly wrong in this prediction. 01:29:05.850 --> 01:29:08.810 But I would say I feel it more over time as we 01:29:08.810 --> 01:29:10.930 make progress with AI, not less. Yeah, I don't 01:29:10.930 --> 01:29:14.189 feel that at all. I feel like we're done. In 01:29:14.189 --> 01:29:17.229 like a few years. No. A few decades. Maybe a 01:29:17.229 --> 01:29:20.060 generation or two. It'll probably be a gradual 01:29:20.060 --> 01:29:23.659 change, like wearing of clothes. You know, I 01:29:23.659 --> 01:29:25.319 don't think everybody wore clothes and they invented 01:29:25.319 --> 01:29:27.619 clothes. I think it probably took a while when 01:29:27.619 --> 01:29:29.619 someone figured out shoes. I think that probably 01:29:29.619 --> 01:29:31.640 took a while when they figured out structures, 01:29:31.899 --> 01:29:35.600 doors, houses, cities, agriculture. All those 01:29:35.600 --> 01:29:38.380 things were slowly implemented over time and 01:29:38.380 --> 01:29:41.390 then now become everywhere. And I think this 01:29:41.390 --> 01:29:44.550 is far more transformative. And it's part of 01:29:44.550 --> 01:29:46.149 that because you don't think there will be an 01:29:46.149 --> 01:29:49.149 option for some people not to merge. Right. Just 01:29:49.149 --> 01:29:50.930 like there's not an option for some people to 01:29:50.930 --> 01:29:54.090 not have telephones anymore. I used to have friends 01:29:54.090 --> 01:29:56.550 like, I don't even have email. Those people don't 01:29:56.550 --> 01:29:58.350 exist anymore. They all have email. Everyone 01:29:58.350 --> 01:30:00.710 has a phone, at least a flip phone. I know some 01:30:00.710 --> 01:30:03.640 people that. They just can't handle social media 01:30:03.640 --> 01:30:05.600 and all that jazz. They went to a flip phone. 01:30:05.739 --> 01:30:07.159 Good for them. I don't know if this is true or 01:30:07.159 --> 01:30:09.039 not. I've heard you can't walk into an AT &T 01:30:09.039 --> 01:30:10.520 store anymore and still buy a flip phone. I heard 01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:12.920 that just changed. You can? Oh, really? Someone 01:30:12.920 --> 01:30:14.380 told me this, but I don't know if it's true. 01:30:14.380 --> 01:30:16.640 Verizon still has them. I was just there. They 01:30:16.640 --> 01:30:18.579 still have flip phones. I was like, I like it. 01:30:18.760 --> 01:30:20.659 I like this fucking little thing that you just 01:30:20.659 --> 01:30:23.520 call people. And I always romanticize about going 01:30:23.520 --> 01:30:26.859 to that. But my step was to go to a phone that 01:30:26.859 --> 01:30:29.800 has nothing on it but text messages. And that's 01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:32.640 been a few days. Feeling good so far? Yeah, it's 01:30:32.640 --> 01:30:36.039 good. I still have my other phone that I use 01:30:36.039 --> 01:30:38.279 for social media, but when I pick that motherfucker 01:30:38.279 --> 01:30:41.000 up, I start scrolling through YouTube and watching 01:30:41.000 --> 01:30:44.439 videos and scrolling through TikTok or Instagram. 01:30:45.100 --> 01:30:49.539 I don't have TikTok, but I tried threads for 01:30:49.539 --> 01:30:51.920 a little while, but I was like a fucking ghost 01:30:51.920 --> 01:30:56.199 town. Went right back to X. I live on a ranch 01:30:56.199 --> 01:30:59.000 during the weekends, and there's Wi -Fi in the 01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:01.500 house, but there's no cell phone coverage. Anywhere 01:31:01.500 --> 01:31:09.500 else. And it's every week I forget how nice it 01:31:09.500 --> 01:31:13.140 is and what a change it is to go for a walk with 01:31:13.140 --> 01:31:15.399 no cell phone coverage. It's good for your mind. 01:31:15.600 --> 01:31:18.220 It's unbelievable for your mind. And I think 01:31:18.220 --> 01:31:23.060 we have like so quickly lost something. Like 01:31:23.060 --> 01:31:24.819 out of service just doesn't happen. It doesn't 01:31:24.819 --> 01:31:31.139 even happen on airplanes anymore. But that. Like 01:31:31.139 --> 01:31:34.840 hours where your phone just cannot buzz. Yeah. 01:31:35.239 --> 01:31:40.060 No text message either. Nothing. I think that's 01:31:40.060 --> 01:31:42.800 a really healthy thing. I dropped my phone once 01:31:42.800 --> 01:31:45.170 when I was in Lanai. And I think it was the last 01:31:45.170 --> 01:31:47.149 time I dropped the phone. The phone was like, 01:31:47.189 --> 01:31:49.489 we're done. And it just started calling people 01:31:49.489 --> 01:31:52.050 randomly. Like it would just call people and 01:31:52.050 --> 01:31:54.250 I'd hang it up and call another person. I'd hang 01:31:54.250 --> 01:31:55.909 it up. And I was showing my wife. I was like, 01:31:55.949 --> 01:31:57.329 look at this. This is crazy. It's just calling 01:31:57.329 --> 01:32:00.489 people. And so the phone was broken. And so I 01:32:00.489 --> 01:32:02.069 had to order a phone. And we were on vacation 01:32:02.069 --> 01:32:05.789 for like eight days. And it took three days for 01:32:05.789 --> 01:32:07.229 Apple to get me a phone. I bet you had a great 01:32:07.229 --> 01:32:10.789 three days. It was amazing. It was amazing. Because. 01:32:11.319 --> 01:32:13.279 When I was hanging out with my family, I was 01:32:13.279 --> 01:32:16.260 totally present. There was no options. And I 01:32:16.260 --> 01:32:18.840 wasn't thinking about checking my phone because 01:32:18.840 --> 01:32:21.520 it didn't exist. I didn't have one. And there 01:32:21.520 --> 01:32:26.039 was an alleviation of, again, what Sean was talking 01:32:26.039 --> 01:32:29.100 about, that low level of anxiety. This sort of 01:32:29.100 --> 01:32:33.619 like – that you have when you always want to 01:32:33.619 --> 01:32:36.560 check your phone. Yeah, I think that thing – 01:32:36.560 --> 01:32:40.819 it's so bad. We have not figured out yet. Like 01:32:40.819 --> 01:32:43.359 the technology has moved so fast. Biology moves 01:32:43.359 --> 01:32:45.640 very slowly. We have not figured out how we're 01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:48.520 going to function in this society and get those 01:32:48.520 --> 01:32:50.840 occasional times when, you know, your phone is 01:32:50.840 --> 01:32:52.840 broken for three days. Yeah. Or you go for a 01:32:52.840 --> 01:33:00.100 walk with no service. But it's like I very much 01:33:00.100 --> 01:33:03.140 feel like my phone controls me, not the other 01:33:03.140 --> 01:33:06.720 way around. Uh -huh. And I hate it. But I haven't 01:33:06.720 --> 01:33:08.529 figured out what to do about it. Well, that's 01:33:08.529 --> 01:33:11.189 what I'm worried about with future technology 01:33:11.189 --> 01:33:15.529 is that this, which was so unanticipated. If 01:33:15.529 --> 01:33:17.890 you'd imagine a world when you imagine going 01:33:17.890 --> 01:33:21.430 up to someone in 1984 and pointing to a phone 01:33:21.430 --> 01:33:23.329 and saying one day that'll be in your pocket, 01:33:23.390 --> 01:33:26.710 it's going to ruin your life. Like what? Like, 01:33:26.729 --> 01:33:28.170 yeah, one day people are going to be jerking 01:33:28.170 --> 01:33:30.869 off to that thing. You're like, what? One day 01:33:30.869 --> 01:33:32.409 people are going to be watching people get murdered 01:33:32.409 --> 01:33:34.229 on Instagram. I haven't seen so many murders 01:33:34.229 --> 01:33:36.350 on Instagram over the last few months. Really? 01:33:36.409 --> 01:33:38.170 I've never seen one. It's been a bad timeline. 01:33:38.430 --> 01:33:42.149 Me and my friend Tom Segura, every morning we 01:33:42.149 --> 01:33:43.850 text each other the worst things that we find 01:33:43.850 --> 01:33:46.289 on Instagram. Why? For fun. He's a comedian. 01:33:46.649 --> 01:33:48.310 We're both comedians. That's fun to you? Yeah. 01:33:48.810 --> 01:33:53.729 It's just fucking ridiculous. Just crazy car 01:33:53.729 --> 01:33:58.130 accidents. People get gored by bulls. We try 01:33:58.130 --> 01:34:00.329 to top each other. So every day he's sending 01:34:00.329 --> 01:34:02.329 me the most. Every day when I wake up and I check, 01:34:02.390 --> 01:34:05.630 Tom, fuck, what are you doing? Can you explain 01:34:05.630 --> 01:34:09.630 what's fun about that? Well, he's a comic and 01:34:09.630 --> 01:34:14.569 I'm a comic. And comics like chaos. We like ridiculous, 01:34:15.149 --> 01:34:20.090 outrageous shit. That is just so far beyond the 01:34:20.090 --> 01:34:22.069 norm of what you experience in a regular day. 01:34:22.470 --> 01:34:27.409 Got it. And also the understanding of the wide 01:34:27.409 --> 01:34:30.489 spectrum of human behavior. If you're a nice 01:34:30.489 --> 01:34:32.850 person and you surround yourself with nice people, 01:34:33.029 --> 01:34:36.569 you very rarely see someone get shot. You very 01:34:36.569 --> 01:34:40.710 rarely see people get stabbed for no reason randomly 01:34:40.710 --> 01:34:42.510 on the street. But on Instagram, you see that 01:34:42.510 --> 01:34:46.789 every day. And there's something about that which 01:34:46.789 --> 01:34:51.409 just reminds you, oh, we're crazy. Like the human 01:34:51.409 --> 01:34:53.710 species, like there's a certain percentage of 01:34:53.710 --> 01:34:57.430 us that are just off the rails and just out there 01:34:57.430 --> 01:35:02.189 just causing chaos and jumping dirt bikes and 01:35:02.189 --> 01:35:04.710 landing on your neck and all that stuff is out 01:35:04.710 --> 01:35:07.069 there. Even to hear that makes me like physically 01:35:07.069 --> 01:35:12.260 like I know that happens, of course. And I know 01:35:12.260 --> 01:35:14.239 like not looking at it doesn't make it not happen. 01:35:14.460 --> 01:35:16.920 Right. But it makes me so uncomfortable and I'm 01:35:16.920 --> 01:35:18.579 happy to watch. Oh, yeah. It makes me uncomfortable 01:35:18.579 --> 01:35:20.539 too. But, yeah, we do it to each other every 01:35:20.539 --> 01:35:25.439 day. And it's not good. It's definitely not good. 01:35:25.520 --> 01:35:27.220 But it's also I'm not going to stop. It's fun. 01:35:27.899 --> 01:35:30.039 But why is it fun? It's fun because it's my friend 01:35:30.039 --> 01:35:32.359 Tom and we're both kind of the same in that way. 01:35:32.399 --> 01:35:34.960 Just look at that. Look at this. That I get. 01:35:35.039 --> 01:35:37.180 Look at this. And it's just a thing we started 01:35:37.180 --> 01:35:40.739 doing a few months ago. Just can't stop. And 01:35:40.739 --> 01:35:42.539 Instagram has learned that you do that, so it 01:35:42.539 --> 01:35:43.899 just keeps showing you more and more. Instagram 01:35:43.899 --> 01:35:47.800 knows. My search page is a mess. When I go to 01:35:47.800 --> 01:35:50.899 the Discover page, oh, it's just crazy. But the 01:35:50.899 --> 01:35:53.659 thing is, it shows up in your feed, too. That's 01:35:53.659 --> 01:35:54.659 what I don't understand about the algorithm. 01:35:54.880 --> 01:35:57.359 It knows you're fucked up, so it shows up in 01:35:57.359 --> 01:36:01.279 your feed of things. They're not people I follow, 01:36:01.460 --> 01:36:05.199 but Instagram shows them to me anyway. I heard 01:36:05.199 --> 01:36:07.329 an interesting thing. a few days ago about Instagram 01:36:07.329 --> 01:36:10.229 and the feed, which is if you use it at off hours 01:36:10.229 --> 01:36:13.329 when they have more processing capability available 01:36:13.329 --> 01:36:14.909 because less people are using it, you get better 01:36:14.909 --> 01:36:17.369 recommendations. So your feed will be better 01:36:17.369 --> 01:36:19.529 in like the middle of the night. What is better 01:36:19.529 --> 01:36:22.050 though? Doesn't your feed – More addictive to 01:36:22.050 --> 01:36:24.229 you or whatever. Right. So for me, better would 01:36:24.229 --> 01:36:27.470 be more murders, more animal attacks. Sounds 01:36:27.470 --> 01:36:31.369 horrible. It's horrible. But it's just – it seems 01:36:31.369 --> 01:36:35.079 to know that's what I like. It seems to know 01:36:35.079 --> 01:36:36.699 that that's what I interact with, so it's just 01:36:36.699 --> 01:36:41.699 sending me that most of the time. Yeah. That 01:36:41.699 --> 01:36:43.500 probably has all kinds of crazy psychological 01:36:43.500 --> 01:36:45.979 effects. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure that's also 01:36:45.979 --> 01:36:47.699 one of the reasons why I want to get rid of it 01:36:47.699 --> 01:36:51.079 and move away from it. Yeah, so maybe it went 01:36:51.079 --> 01:36:54.960 too far. I don't even know if it's too far, but 01:36:54.960 --> 01:36:59.750 what it is is it's showing me. the darker regions 01:36:59.750 --> 01:37:04.069 of society, of civilization, of human behavior. 01:37:04.369 --> 01:37:06.029 But you think we're about to edit all that out? 01:37:06.189 --> 01:37:09.689 I wonder if that is a solution. I really do. 01:37:09.909 --> 01:37:12.250 Because I don't think it's outside the realm 01:37:12.250 --> 01:37:16.109 of possibility. If we really truly can engineer 01:37:16.109 --> 01:37:19.109 that. Like one of the talks about Neuralink that's 01:37:19.109 --> 01:37:22.750 really promising is people with spinal cord issues. 01:37:23.979 --> 01:37:26.380 injuries people that can't move their body and 01:37:26.380 --> 01:37:29.899 being able to hotwire that where essentially 01:37:29.899 --> 01:37:33.720 it controls all these parts of your body that 01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:36.060 you couldn't control anymore and so that would 01:37:36.060 --> 01:37:38.560 be an amazing thing for people that are injured 01:37:38.560 --> 01:37:42.279 for amazing thing for people that are you know 01:37:42.279 --> 01:37:44.739 they're they're paralyzed they have all sorts 01:37:44.739 --> 01:37:48.869 of neurological conditions That is probably one 01:37:48.869 --> 01:37:51.029 of the first, and that's what Elon's talked about 01:37:51.029 --> 01:37:53.510 as well, one of the first implementations, the 01:37:53.510 --> 01:37:58.550 restoration of sight, cognitive function enhanced 01:37:58.550 --> 01:38:02.350 from people that have brain issues. That's tremendously 01:38:02.350 --> 01:38:05.609 exciting. Yeah. And like many other technologies, 01:38:05.789 --> 01:38:09.250 I don't think we can stop neural interfaces because 01:38:09.250 --> 01:38:11.789 of the great good that's going to happen along 01:38:11.789 --> 01:38:13.409 the way. But I also don't think we know where 01:38:13.409 --> 01:38:17.689 it goes. It's Pandora's box for sure. And I think 01:38:17.689 --> 01:38:20.130 when we open it, it's just we're not going to 01:38:20.130 --> 01:38:22.090 go back. Just like we're not going to go back 01:38:22.090 --> 01:38:24.029 to no computers without some sort of natural 01:38:24.029 --> 01:38:27.350 disaster. By the way, and I mean this as a great 01:38:27.350 --> 01:38:29.670 compliment, you are one of the most neutral people 01:38:29.670 --> 01:38:32.630 I have ever heard talk about the merge coming. 01:38:33.029 --> 01:38:34.670 You're just like, yeah, I think it's going to 01:38:34.670 --> 01:38:36.810 happen. You know, it'd be good in these ways, 01:38:36.869 --> 01:38:40.949 bad in these ways. But you seem like unbelievably 01:38:40.949 --> 01:38:42.989 neutral about it, which is always something I 01:38:42.989 --> 01:38:46.140 admire. I try to be as neutral. about everything 01:38:46.140 --> 01:38:48.520 as possible, except for corruption, which I think 01:38:48.520 --> 01:38:51.479 is just like one of the most massive problems 01:38:51.479 --> 01:38:56.960 with the way our culture is governed. I think 01:38:56.960 --> 01:38:59.579 corruption is just – and the influence of money 01:38:59.579 --> 01:39:03.140 is just a giant, terrible issue. But in terms 01:39:03.140 --> 01:39:07.199 of like social issues and in terms of the way 01:39:07.199 --> 01:39:09.920 human beings believe and think about things, 01:39:10.060 --> 01:39:13.479 I try to be as neutral as possible because I 01:39:13.479 --> 01:39:16.760 think – The only way to really truly understand 01:39:16.760 --> 01:39:18.539 the way other people think about things is try 01:39:18.539 --> 01:39:20.640 to look at it through their mind. And if you 01:39:20.640 --> 01:39:26.300 have this inherent bias and you have this very 01:39:26.300 --> 01:39:30.460 rigid view of what's good and bad and right and 01:39:30.460 --> 01:39:33.779 wrong, I don't think that serves you very well 01:39:33.779 --> 01:39:37.140 for understanding why people differ. So I try 01:39:37.140 --> 01:39:40.439 to be as neutral and as objective as possible 01:39:40.439 --> 01:39:43.060 when I look at anything. This is a skill that 01:39:43.060 --> 01:39:44.800 I've learned. This is not something I had in 01:39:44.800 --> 01:39:47.939 2009 when I started this podcast. This podcast, 01:39:48.000 --> 01:39:49.659 I started just fucking around with friends and 01:39:49.659 --> 01:39:52.079 I had no idea what it was. I mean, there's no 01:39:52.079 --> 01:39:54.979 way I could have ever known. And but also had 01:39:54.979 --> 01:39:58.640 no idea what it was going to do to me as far 01:39:58.640 --> 01:40:01.340 as the evolution of me as a human being. I am 01:40:01.340 --> 01:40:05.340 so much nicer. I'm so much more aware of things. 01:40:05.560 --> 01:40:08.460 I'm so much more conscious of the way other people 01:40:08.460 --> 01:40:11.060 think and feel. I'm just a totally different 01:40:11.060 --> 01:40:15.859 person than I was in 2009, which is hard to recognize. 01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:18.359 It's hard to believe. That's really cool. But 01:40:18.359 --> 01:40:21.960 that is just an inevitable consequence of this. 01:40:23.299 --> 01:40:25.899 unexpected education that i've received did the 01:40:25.899 --> 01:40:28.840 empathy kind of like come on linearly yes that 01:40:28.840 --> 01:40:31.760 was not a no it just came it came on recognize 01:40:31.760 --> 01:40:35.439 well first of all came on recognizing that the 01:40:35.439 --> 01:40:37.619 interact the negative interactions on social 01:40:37.619 --> 01:40:41.079 media that i was doing they didn't help me They 01:40:41.079 --> 01:40:43.420 didn't help the person. And then having compassion 01:40:43.420 --> 01:40:45.560 for this person that's fucked up or done something 01:40:45.560 --> 01:40:48.399 stupid. It's not good to just dunk on people. 01:40:48.920 --> 01:40:51.560 There's no benefit there other than to give you 01:40:51.560 --> 01:40:53.319 some sort of social credit and get a bunch of 01:40:53.319 --> 01:40:56.779 likes. It didn't make me feel good. That's not 01:40:56.779 --> 01:40:59.979 good. And also a lot of psychedelics. A ton of 01:40:59.979 --> 01:41:03.720 psychedelic experiences from 2009 on with everyone 01:41:03.720 --> 01:41:06.739 a greater understanding of the impact. I had 01:41:06.739 --> 01:41:10.369 one recently. And when I had the one recently, 01:41:10.510 --> 01:41:14.890 like the overwhelming message that I was getting 01:41:14.890 --> 01:41:19.369 through this was that everything I say and do 01:41:19.369 --> 01:41:23.409 ripples off into all the people that I interact 01:41:23.409 --> 01:41:27.210 with. And that if I'm not doing something with 01:41:27.210 --> 01:41:31.470 at least the goal of overall good or overall 01:41:31.470 --> 01:41:36.149 understanding. That I'm doing bad and that that 01:41:36.149 --> 01:41:38.869 bad is a real thing as much as you try to ignore 01:41:38.869 --> 01:41:41.210 it because you don't interface with it instantly 01:41:41.210 --> 01:41:47.109 and you're still creating unnecessary negativity 01:41:47.109 --> 01:41:50.689 and that I should avoid that as much as possible. 01:41:50.710 --> 01:41:53.869 It was like an overwhelming message that this 01:41:53.869 --> 01:41:58.869 psychedelic experience was giving me. And I took 01:41:58.869 --> 01:42:01.979 it because I was just. Particularly anxious that 01:42:01.979 --> 01:42:04.359 day about the state of the world, particularly 01:42:04.359 --> 01:42:09.020 anxious about Ukraine and Russia and China and 01:42:09.020 --> 01:42:12.380 the political system that we have in this country 01:42:12.380 --> 01:42:17.600 and this incredibly polarizing way that the left 01:42:17.600 --> 01:42:20.100 and the right engage with each other. And God, 01:42:20.180 --> 01:42:26.119 it just seems so just tormented. And so I was 01:42:26.119 --> 01:42:28.979 just, some days I just get, I think too much 01:42:28.979 --> 01:42:30.640 about it. I just, I'm like, I need something. 01:42:30.680 --> 01:42:33.960 Yeah. Crack me out of this. So I, I took these 01:42:33.960 --> 01:42:37.479 psychedelics. Are you surprised psychedelic therapy 01:42:37.479 --> 01:42:40.720 has not made, from what you thought would happen 01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:42.640 in the, say the early 2010s till now, are you 01:42:42.640 --> 01:42:45.260 surprised it has not made more progress sort 01:42:45.260 --> 01:42:47.260 of on a path to legalization as a medical treatment? 01:42:47.659 --> 01:42:50.789 No. No, I'm not because there's a lot of people 01:42:50.789 --> 01:42:53.649 that don't want it to be in place. And those 01:42:53.649 --> 01:42:56.090 people have tremendous power over our medical 01:42:56.090 --> 01:42:59.590 system and over our regulatory system. And those 01:42:59.590 --> 01:43:02.789 people have also not experienced these psychedelics. 01:43:02.789 --> 01:43:05.449 There's very few people that have experienced 01:43:05.449 --> 01:43:08.310 profound psychedelic experiences that don't think 01:43:08.310 --> 01:43:10.909 there's an overall good for those things. So 01:43:10.909 --> 01:43:15.350 the problem is you're having. these laws and 01:43:15.350 --> 01:43:19.130 these rules implemented by people who are completely 01:43:19.130 --> 01:43:21.229 ignorant about the positive effects of these 01:43:21.229 --> 01:43:26.149 things and if you know the history of psychedelic 01:43:27.100 --> 01:43:29.439 prohibition in this country it all took place 01:43:29.439 --> 01:43:32.659 during 1970 and it was really to stop the civil 01:43:32.659 --> 01:43:35.000 rights movement and it was really to stop the 01:43:35.000 --> 01:43:37.659 anti -war movement and they they tried to find 01:43:37.659 --> 01:43:40.260 a way to make all these things that these people 01:43:40.260 --> 01:43:42.760 were doing that was causing them to thinking 01:43:42.760 --> 01:43:46.029 these very different ways Tune in, turn on, drop 01:43:46.029 --> 01:43:48.850 out. They just wanted to put a fucking halt to 01:43:48.850 --> 01:43:51.609 that. What better way than to lock everyone who 01:43:51.609 --> 01:43:54.350 participates in that in cages? Find the people 01:43:54.350 --> 01:43:56.350 who are producing it. Lock them in cages. Put 01:43:56.350 --> 01:43:58.649 them in jail for the rest of their life. Make 01:43:58.649 --> 01:44:01.069 sure it's illegal. Arrest people. Put the busts 01:44:01.069 --> 01:44:03.130 on television. Make sure that people are aware. 01:44:03.569 --> 01:44:06.550 And then there's also you connect it to drugs 01:44:06.550 --> 01:44:09.010 that are inherently dangerous for society and 01:44:09.010 --> 01:44:12.409 detrimental. The fentanyl crisis. The crack cocaine 01:44:12.409 --> 01:44:15.039 crisis that we experience. the 90s like all of 01:44:15.039 --> 01:44:17.699 those things they're under the blanket of drugs 01:44:17.699 --> 01:44:22.479 psychedelic drugs are also talked about like 01:44:22.479 --> 01:44:26.500 drugs even though they have these profound spiritual 01:44:26.500 --> 01:44:30.140 and psychological changes that they you know 01:44:30.140 --> 01:44:33.079 imbibed i remember when i was in elementary school 01:44:33.079 --> 01:44:34.939 and i was in like drug education they talked 01:44:34.939 --> 01:44:37.689 about you know marijuana is really bad because 01:44:37.689 --> 01:44:39.590 it's a gateway to these other things and there's 01:44:39.590 --> 01:44:41.590 this bad one that bad one heroin whatever and 01:44:41.590 --> 01:44:43.770 the very end of the line the worst possible thing 01:44:43.770 --> 01:44:49.050 is lsd um did you take lsd and go oh they're 01:44:49.050 --> 01:44:52.689 lying psychedelic therapy was definitely one 01:44:52.689 --> 01:44:54.689 of the like most important things in my life 01:44:54.689 --> 01:45:00.710 and i i assumed given how powerful it was for 01:45:00.710 --> 01:45:03.989 me like i I struggled with all kinds of anxiety 01:45:03.989 --> 01:45:07.090 and other negative things. And to watch all of 01:45:07.090 --> 01:45:11.189 that go away. Like that. I traveled to another 01:45:11.189 --> 01:45:13.890 country for a week. Did a few things. Came back. 01:45:14.649 --> 01:45:17.130 A totally different person. And I was like, I've 01:45:17.130 --> 01:45:19.810 been lied to my whole life. I'm so grateful that 01:45:19.810 --> 01:45:21.829 this happened to me now. Talked to a bunch of 01:45:21.829 --> 01:45:25.170 other people. All similar experiences. This was 01:45:25.170 --> 01:45:27.729 a while ago. I assumed it was. And I was very 01:45:27.729 --> 01:45:31.199 interested in what was happening in. the U .S. 01:45:31.619 --> 01:45:35.000 I was like particularly like looking at where 01:45:35.000 --> 01:45:37.659 MDMA and psilocybin were on the path and I was 01:45:37.659 --> 01:45:39.220 like all right this is going to get through like 01:45:39.220 --> 01:45:41.239 this is and this is going to like change the 01:45:41.239 --> 01:45:43.819 mental health of a lot of people in a really 01:45:43.819 --> 01:45:46.260 positive way and I am surprised we have not made 01:45:46.260 --> 01:45:48.100 faster progress there but I'm still optimistic 01:45:48.100 --> 01:45:52.140 we will well we have made so much progress from 01:45:52.760 --> 01:45:56.760 the time of the 1990s. In the 1990s, you never 01:45:56.760 --> 01:45:59.720 heard about psychedelic retreats. You never heard 01:45:59.720 --> 01:46:01.539 about people taking these vacations. You never 01:46:01.539 --> 01:46:03.140 heard about people getting together in groups 01:46:03.140 --> 01:46:06.119 and doing these things and coming back with these 01:46:06.119 --> 01:46:08.380 profound experiences that they relayed to other 01:46:08.380 --> 01:46:11.819 people and literally seeing people change, seeing 01:46:11.819 --> 01:46:15.159 who they are change, seeing people become less 01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:22.140 selfish, less toxic, less mean. And more empathetic 01:46:22.140 --> 01:46:26.560 and more understanding. Yeah. I mean, I can only 01:46:26.560 --> 01:46:28.319 talk about it from a personal experience. It's 01:46:28.319 --> 01:46:31.380 been a radical change in my life. As well as, 01:46:31.439 --> 01:46:33.520 again, having all these conversations with different 01:46:33.520 --> 01:46:35.359 people. I feel so fortunate to be able to do 01:46:35.359 --> 01:46:37.979 this. That I've had so many different conversations 01:46:37.979 --> 01:46:40.659 with so many different people that think so differently. 01:46:40.899 --> 01:46:43.520 And so many exceptional people that have accomplished 01:46:43.520 --> 01:46:45.359 so many incredible things. And you get to sort 01:46:45.359 --> 01:46:48.750 of... understand the way their mind works and 01:46:48.750 --> 01:46:50.789 the way they see the world, the way they interface 01:46:50.789 --> 01:46:53.630 with things. It's awesome. It's pretty fucking 01:46:53.630 --> 01:46:56.170 cool. And that is one of the cooler things about 01:46:56.170 --> 01:47:00.770 being a human, that you can find a way to mitigate 01:47:00.770 --> 01:47:03.289 all the negative aspects of the monkey body. 01:47:03.470 --> 01:47:07.449 And there are tools that are in place. But unfortunately, 01:47:07.510 --> 01:47:10.949 in this very prohibitive society, this society 01:47:10.949 --> 01:47:16.500 of prohibition, we're... denied those and we're 01:47:16.500 --> 01:47:19.000 denied ones that have never killed anybody which 01:47:19.000 --> 01:47:22.079 is really bizarre when you know oxycontin can 01:47:22.079 --> 01:47:24.359 still be prescribed what's the deal with why 01:47:24.359 --> 01:47:29.619 we can't make if we leave like why we can't get 01:47:29.619 --> 01:47:31.779 these medicines that have transformed people's 01:47:31.779 --> 01:47:34.960 lives like more available what's the deal with 01:47:34.960 --> 01:47:39.279 why we can't stop the the opioid crisis or like 01:47:39.279 --> 01:47:42.600 fentanyl seems like just an unbelievable crisis 01:47:42.600 --> 01:47:44.569 for san francisco You remember in the beginning 01:47:44.569 --> 01:47:47.750 of the conversation where you said that AI will 01:47:47.750 --> 01:47:51.609 do a lot of good, overall good, but also not 01:47:51.609 --> 01:47:57.930 no harm. If we legalize drugs, all drugs, that 01:47:57.930 --> 01:48:00.210 would do the same thing. Would you advocate to 01:48:00.210 --> 01:48:02.810 legalize all drugs? It's a very complicated question. 01:48:03.520 --> 01:48:05.640 Because I think you're going to have a lot of 01:48:05.640 --> 01:48:07.380 addicts that wouldn't be addicts. You're going 01:48:07.380 --> 01:48:09.199 to have a lot of people's lives destroyed because 01:48:09.199 --> 01:48:11.619 it's legal. There's a lot of people that may 01:48:11.619 --> 01:48:14.420 not be psychologically capable of handling things. 01:48:14.600 --> 01:48:16.340 Maybe they already have – like that's the thing 01:48:16.340 --> 01:48:19.079 about psychedelics. They do not ever recommend 01:48:19.079 --> 01:48:21.100 them for people that have a slippery grasp on 01:48:21.100 --> 01:48:23.460 reality as it is. For sure. People that are struggling, 01:48:23.579 --> 01:48:26.020 people that are already on a bunch of medications 01:48:26.020 --> 01:48:30.140 that allow them to just keep a steady state of 01:48:30.140 --> 01:48:34.020 existence in the normal world. If you just fucking 01:48:34.020 --> 01:48:38.159 bombard them with psilocybin, who knows what 01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:39.840 kind of an effect that's going to have and whether 01:48:39.840 --> 01:48:42.539 or not they're psychologically too fragile to 01:48:42.539 --> 01:48:44.939 recover from that. I mean, there's many, many 01:48:44.939 --> 01:48:46.960 stories of people taking too much acid and never 01:48:46.960 --> 01:48:55.539 coming back. Yeah. Yeah. These are like a powerful 01:48:55.539 --> 01:48:57.359 doesn't seem to like begin to cover it. Right. 01:48:57.680 --> 01:49:01.100 Yeah. But there's also what is it about humans? 01:49:01.710 --> 01:49:04.270 that are constantly looking to perturb their 01:49:04.270 --> 01:49:06.989 normal state of consciousness. Constantly, whether 01:49:06.989 --> 01:49:10.010 it's we're both drinking coffee, people smoke 01:49:10.010 --> 01:49:13.930 cigarettes, they take Adderall, they do all sorts 01:49:13.930 --> 01:49:16.710 of different things to change and enhance their 01:49:16.710 --> 01:49:18.449 normal state of consciousness. It seems like 01:49:18.449 --> 01:49:21.369 whether it's meditation or yoga, they're always 01:49:21.369 --> 01:49:24.229 doing something to try to get out of their own 01:49:24.229 --> 01:49:28.029 way or get in their own way or distract themselves 01:49:28.029 --> 01:49:31.210 from the pain of existence. And it seems like 01:49:31.210 --> 01:49:34.409 a normal part of humans. And even monkeys, like 01:49:34.409 --> 01:49:37.569 vervet monkeys, get addicted to alcohol. They 01:49:37.569 --> 01:49:39.470 get addicted to fermented fruits and alcohol, 01:49:39.569 --> 01:49:43.930 and they become drunks and alcoholics. What do 01:49:43.930 --> 01:49:46.409 you think is the deep lesson there? Well, we're 01:49:46.409 --> 01:49:50.229 not happy exactly. And then some things can make 01:49:50.229 --> 01:49:52.630 you happy sort of. Like a couple of drinks makes 01:49:52.630 --> 01:49:55.659 you so happy for a little bit. Until you're an 01:49:55.659 --> 01:49:57.699 alcoholic, until you destroy your liver, until 01:49:57.699 --> 01:50:01.079 you crash your car, until you're involved in 01:50:01.079 --> 01:50:04.399 some sort of a violent encounter that you would 01:50:04.399 --> 01:50:06.600 never be involved with if you weren't drunk. 01:50:07.699 --> 01:50:10.399 You know, I love caffeine, which clearly is a 01:50:10.399 --> 01:50:15.500 drug. Alcohol, like, I like, but I often am like, 01:50:15.600 --> 01:50:18.939 yeah, this is like, you know, this is like dulling 01:50:18.939 --> 01:50:21.800 me and I wish I hadn't had this drink. And then 01:50:21.800 --> 01:50:25.590 other stuff like... I mostly would choose to 01:50:25.590 --> 01:50:29.750 avoid. But that's because you're smart. And you're 01:50:29.750 --> 01:50:32.369 probably aware of the pros and cons. And you're 01:50:32.369 --> 01:50:35.210 also probably aware of how it affects you and 01:50:35.210 --> 01:50:38.010 what's doing good for you and what is detrimental 01:50:38.010 --> 01:50:41.170 to you. But that's a decision that you can make 01:50:41.170 --> 01:50:44.090 as an informed human being that you're not allowed 01:50:44.090 --> 01:50:48.189 to make if everything's illegal. Right. Yeah. 01:50:48.350 --> 01:50:52.489 Right. And also when things are illegal. criminals 01:50:52.489 --> 01:50:55.789 sell those things because it's you're not tampering 01:50:55.789 --> 01:50:59.010 the desire by making it illegal you're just making 01:50:59.010 --> 01:51:01.970 access to it much more complicated what i was 01:51:01.970 --> 01:51:04.250 going to say is if fentanyl is really great i 01:51:04.250 --> 01:51:06.930 don't want to know apparently it is apparently 01:51:06.930 --> 01:51:09.670 it is yeah peter berg was on the podcast and 01:51:09.670 --> 01:51:12.369 he uh produced that painkiller documentary for 01:51:12.369 --> 01:51:14.930 netflix about the the the docudrama about the 01:51:14.930 --> 01:51:18.710 sackler family it's an amazing piece but he said 01:51:18.710 --> 01:51:23.010 that he took uh once recreationally. And he was 01:51:23.010 --> 01:51:26.930 like, oh my God, it's amazing. He's like, keep 01:51:26.930 --> 01:51:30.289 this away from me. It feels so good. Yeah. And 01:51:30.289 --> 01:51:32.569 that's part of the problem is that, yeah, it 01:51:32.569 --> 01:51:35.510 will wreck your life. Yeah, it will capture you. 01:51:35.750 --> 01:51:37.850 But it's just so unbelievable. But the feeling, 01:51:38.029 --> 01:51:40.310 like how did Lenny Bruce describe it? I think 01:51:40.310 --> 01:51:42.630 he described heroin as getting a warm hug from 01:51:42.630 --> 01:51:47.609 God. I think the feeling that it gives you is 01:51:47.609 --> 01:51:52.000 probably pretty spectacular. I don't know if 01:51:52.000 --> 01:51:56.079 legalizing that is going to solve the problems. 01:51:56.220 --> 01:51:59.199 But I do know that another problem that we're 01:51:59.199 --> 01:52:01.319 not paying attention to is the rise of the cartels 01:52:01.319 --> 01:52:03.659 and the fact that right across our border where 01:52:03.659 --> 01:52:07.600 you can walk, there are these enormous, enormous 01:52:07.600 --> 01:52:12.029 organizations that make. Who knows how much money, 01:52:12.130 --> 01:52:15.949 untold, uncalculable amounts of money, selling 01:52:15.949 --> 01:52:17.869 drugs and bringing them into this country. And 01:52:17.869 --> 01:52:20.149 one of the things they do is they put fentanyl 01:52:20.149 --> 01:52:22.229 in everything to make things stronger. And they 01:52:22.229 --> 01:52:25.250 do it for, like, street Xanax. There's people 01:52:25.250 --> 01:52:26.529 that have overdosed thinking they're getting 01:52:26.529 --> 01:52:28.989 Xanax and they fucking die from fentanyl. Yeah, 01:52:29.109 --> 01:52:32.760 they do it with cocaine, of course. They do it 01:52:32.760 --> 01:52:35.000 with everything. There's so many things that 01:52:35.000 --> 01:52:37.720 have fentanyl in them, and they're cut with fentanyl 01:52:37.720 --> 01:52:40.359 because fentanyl is cheap and it's insanely potent. 01:52:41.920 --> 01:52:44.260 And that wouldn't be a problem if things were 01:52:44.260 --> 01:52:47.079 legal. So would you net out towards saying, all 01:52:47.079 --> 01:52:48.119 right, let's just legalize it? Yeah, I would 01:52:48.119 --> 01:52:51.180 net out towards that, but I would also put into 01:52:51.180 --> 01:52:54.199 place some serious mitigation efforts, like in 01:52:54.199 --> 01:52:57.119 terms of counseling, drug addiction, and Ibogaine 01:52:57.119 --> 01:52:58.880 therapy, which is another thing that's illegal. 01:52:58.899 --> 01:53:00.840 Someone was just telling me about how transformative 01:53:00.840 --> 01:53:02.619 this was for them. Yeah, I haven't experienced 01:53:02.619 --> 01:53:05.319 that personally, but Ibogaine for many of my 01:53:05.319 --> 01:53:08.390 friends that have had pill problems. I have a 01:53:08.390 --> 01:53:12.430 friend, my friend Ed Clay, who started an Ibogaine 01:53:12.430 --> 01:53:16.050 center in Mexico because he had an injury and 01:53:16.050 --> 01:53:18.329 he got hooked on pills and he couldn't kick it. 01:53:18.390 --> 01:53:21.649 Did Ibogaine. Gone. One time done. One time done. 01:53:21.829 --> 01:53:24.449 24 hour, super uncomfortable experience. It's 01:53:24.449 --> 01:53:25.609 supposed to be a horrible experience, right? 01:53:25.670 --> 01:53:27.510 Yeah. It's supposed to be not very recreational, 01:53:27.510 --> 01:53:30.369 not exactly something you want to do on the weekend 01:53:30.369 --> 01:53:32.430 with friends. It's something you do because you're 01:53:32.430 --> 01:53:34.189 fucked and you need to figure out how to get 01:53:34.189 --> 01:53:38.000 out of this fuckness. And that. Like, we think 01:53:38.000 --> 01:53:40.079 about how much money is spent on rehabs in this 01:53:40.079 --> 01:53:43.380 country, and what's the relapse rate? It's really 01:53:43.380 --> 01:53:46.140 high. I mean, I have many friends that have been 01:53:46.140 --> 01:53:50.220 to rehab for drug and alcohol abuse, and quite 01:53:50.220 --> 01:53:53.399 a few of them went right back to it. It doesn't 01:53:53.399 --> 01:53:55.640 seem to be that effective. It seems to be effective 01:53:55.640 --> 01:53:58.420 to people when people have, like, they really 01:53:58.420 --> 01:54:00.260 hit rock bottom and they have a strong will, 01:54:00.439 --> 01:54:02.239 and then they get involved in a program, some 01:54:02.239 --> 01:54:04.800 sort of a 12 -step program, some sort of a Narcotics 01:54:04.800 --> 01:54:07.430 Anonymous program, and then they... They get 01:54:07.430 --> 01:54:09.649 support from other people and they eventually 01:54:09.649 --> 01:54:12.609 build this foundation of other types of behaviors 01:54:12.609 --> 01:54:17.050 and ways to find other things to focus on to 01:54:17.050 --> 01:54:19.770 whatever aspect of their mind that allows them 01:54:19.770 --> 01:54:22.189 to be addicted to things. Now it's focused on 01:54:22.189 --> 01:54:25.430 exercise, meditation, yoga, whatever it is. That's 01:54:25.430 --> 01:54:27.710 your new addiction. And it's a much more positive 01:54:27.710 --> 01:54:30.430 and beneficial addiction. But the reality of 01:54:30.430 --> 01:54:34.199 the physical addiction. That there are mitigation 01:54:34.199 --> 01:54:36.539 efforts. Like there's so many people that have 01:54:36.539 --> 01:54:39.220 taken psilocybin and completely quit drugs, completely 01:54:39.220 --> 01:54:41.420 quit cigarettes, completely quit a lot because 01:54:41.420 --> 01:54:44.279 they realize like, oh, this is what this is. 01:54:44.380 --> 01:54:48.380 This is why I'm doing this. Yeah, that's why 01:54:48.380 --> 01:54:50.979 I was more optimistic that the world would have 01:54:50.979 --> 01:54:54.199 made faster progress towards acceptance of – 01:54:54.199 --> 01:54:56.760 you hear so many stories like this. So I would 01:54:56.760 --> 01:54:58.680 say like, all right, clearly a lot of our existing 01:54:58.680 --> 01:55:01.560 mental health treatment at best doesn't work. 01:55:02.010 --> 01:55:04.630 Clearly our addiction programs are ineffective. 01:55:05.369 --> 01:55:08.510 If we have this thing that in every scientific 01:55:08.510 --> 01:55:10.930 study or most scientific studies we can see is 01:55:10.930 --> 01:55:14.770 delivering these like unbelievable results, it's 01:55:14.770 --> 01:55:19.930 going to happen. And it, yeah, I still am excited 01:55:19.930 --> 01:55:21.810 for it. I still think it'll be a transformatively 01:55:21.810 --> 01:55:25.069 positive development, but it'll change politics. 01:55:26.060 --> 01:55:29.220 It'll absolutely change the way we think of other 01:55:29.220 --> 01:55:31.159 human beings. It'll absolutely change the way 01:55:31.159 --> 01:55:33.859 we think of society and culture as a whole. It'll 01:55:33.859 --> 01:55:35.720 absolutely change the way people interact with 01:55:35.720 --> 01:55:39.359 each other if it becomes legalized. And it's 01:55:39.359 --> 01:55:41.539 slowly becoming legalized. Like think of marijuana, 01:55:41.720 --> 01:55:44.760 which is like, you know, the gateway drug. Marijuana 01:55:44.760 --> 01:55:48.220 is now legal recreationally in how many states? 01:55:49.659 --> 01:55:55.680 23. And then medically in many more. And, you 01:55:55.680 --> 01:55:58.020 know, it's really easy to get a license medically. 01:55:58.439 --> 01:56:02.720 In California, I got one in 1996. I used to be 01:56:02.720 --> 01:56:04.380 able to just go somewhere and go, I've got a 01:56:04.380 --> 01:56:08.619 headache. That's it. Yeah, I get headaches. I'm 01:56:08.619 --> 01:56:10.760 in pain a lot, you know. I do a lot of martial 01:56:10.760 --> 01:56:12.819 arts. I'm always injured. I need some medication. 01:56:13.039 --> 01:56:15.239 I don't like taking pain pills. Bam. You've got 01:56:15.239 --> 01:56:16.979 a legal prescription for weed. I used to have 01:56:16.979 --> 01:56:19.260 to go to Englewood to get it. I used to have 01:56:19.260 --> 01:56:20.819 to go to the hood, to the Englewood Wellness 01:56:20.819 --> 01:56:25.260 Center. And I was like, this is crazy. Like marijuana 01:56:25.260 --> 01:56:28.220 is now kind of sort of legal. Yeah. And then 01:56:28.220 --> 01:56:32.359 in 2016, it became legal in California recreationally. 01:56:32.359 --> 01:56:35.460 And it just changed everything. I had all these 01:56:35.460 --> 01:56:38.100 people that were like right wing people that 01:56:38.100 --> 01:56:40.920 were taking edibles to sleep. You know, I'm like, 01:56:40.939 --> 01:56:43.060 this is because now that it's legal, they thought 01:56:43.060 --> 01:56:46.239 about it in a different way. And I think that. 01:56:46.779 --> 01:56:50.100 That drug, which is a fairly mild psychedelic, 01:56:50.100 --> 01:56:53.560 also has enhancing effects. It makes people more 01:56:53.560 --> 01:56:55.840 compassionate. It makes people more kind and 01:56:55.840 --> 01:56:58.920 friendly. It's sort of the opposite of a drug 01:56:58.920 --> 01:57:01.859 that enhances violence. It doesn't enhance violence 01:57:01.859 --> 01:57:05.140 at all. Alcohol does that. Cocaine does that. 01:57:05.850 --> 01:57:07.510 To say a thing that will make me very unpopular, 01:57:07.569 --> 01:57:09.890 I hate marijuana. It does not sit well with me 01:57:09.890 --> 01:57:11.050 at all. What does it do to you that you don't 01:57:11.050 --> 01:57:13.949 like? It makes me tired and slow for a long time 01:57:13.949 --> 01:57:17.750 after it. I think also there's biological variabilities, 01:57:17.829 --> 01:57:21.470 right? Like some people, like my wife, she does 01:57:21.470 --> 01:57:23.350 not do well with alcohol. She can get drunk off 01:57:23.350 --> 01:57:26.710 one drink. But it's biological. She got some 01:57:26.710 --> 01:57:28.449 sort of a genetic, I forget what it's called, 01:57:28.529 --> 01:57:30.770 something about Billy Rubin, like something that 01:57:30.770 --> 01:57:33.680 her body just doesn't. process alcohol very well 01:57:33.680 --> 01:57:35.819 so she's a cheap date oh all i meant is that 01:57:35.819 --> 01:57:37.939 genetically i got whatever the mutation is that 01:57:37.939 --> 01:57:40.199 makes it an unpleasant experience yeah but what 01:57:40.199 --> 01:57:42.060 i was saying is for me that's the opposite alcohol 01:57:42.060 --> 01:57:44.180 doesn't bother me at all like i could i could 01:57:44.180 --> 01:57:46.539 drink three four drinks and i'm sober in 20 minutes 01:57:46.539 --> 01:57:49.859 and my body just my liver just like a blast just 01:57:49.859 --> 01:57:52.100 goes right through it i can sober up real quick 01:57:52.100 --> 01:57:56.039 but i also don't need it like i'm doing sober 01:57:56.039 --> 01:57:58.340 october For the whole month I don't drink. Feels 01:57:58.340 --> 01:58:01.060 good? Yeah. Did shows last night. Great. No problems. 01:58:01.699 --> 01:58:04.460 Not having alcohol doesn't seem to bother me 01:58:04.460 --> 01:58:08.220 at all. But I do like it. I do like a glass of 01:58:08.220 --> 01:58:09.500 wine. It's a nice thing at the end of the day. 01:58:09.619 --> 01:58:13.840 I like it. Speaking of that and psychedelics 01:58:13.840 --> 01:58:17.199 in general, many cultures have had a place for 01:58:17.199 --> 01:58:20.699 some sort of psychedelic time in someone's life 01:58:20.699 --> 01:58:23.260 or rite of passage. But as far as I can tell, 01:58:23.340 --> 01:58:27.329 most of them are under. There's some sort of 01:58:27.329 --> 01:58:31.630 ritual about it. And I do worry that – and I 01:58:31.630 --> 01:58:35.010 think these things are so powerful that I worry 01:58:35.010 --> 01:58:38.329 about them just being like kind of used all over 01:58:38.329 --> 01:58:41.789 the place all the time. Yeah. And I hope that 01:58:41.789 --> 01:58:43.510 we as a society, because I think this is not 01:58:43.510 --> 01:58:46.189 going to happen even if it's slow, find a way 01:58:46.189 --> 01:58:50.109 to treat this with the respect that it needs. 01:58:50.750 --> 01:58:53.649 Yeah. We'll see how that goes. Agreed. Yeah. 01:58:53.829 --> 01:58:57.279 I think – Set and setting is very important. 01:58:57.619 --> 01:59:00.819 And thinking about what you're doing before you're 01:59:00.819 --> 01:59:02.880 doing it and why you're doing it. Like I was 01:59:02.880 --> 01:59:04.720 saying the other night when I had this psychedelic 01:59:04.720 --> 01:59:07.880 experience, I was just like, God, sometimes I 01:59:07.880 --> 01:59:10.000 just think too much about the world and that 01:59:10.000 --> 01:59:12.520 it's so fucked. And you have kids and you wonder, 01:59:12.539 --> 01:59:14.380 like, what kind of a world are they going to 01:59:14.380 --> 01:59:17.460 grow up in? And it was just one of those days 01:59:17.460 --> 01:59:19.439 where I was just like, God, there's so much anger 01:59:19.439 --> 01:59:21.359 and there's so much this and that. And then it's 01:59:21.359 --> 01:59:24.439 just. It took it away from me. The rest of the 01:59:24.439 --> 01:59:27.119 day, like that night, I was so friendly and so 01:59:27.119 --> 01:59:29.659 happy, and I just wanted to hug everybody. I 01:59:29.659 --> 01:59:32.500 just really got it. I go, oh, my God, that is 01:59:32.500 --> 01:59:34.760 not thinking about it wrong. Do you think the 01:59:34.760 --> 01:59:37.140 anger in the world is way higher than it used 01:59:37.140 --> 01:59:40.939 to be, or it's like all these dynamics from social 01:59:40.939 --> 01:59:42.779 media we were talking about? I think the dynamics 01:59:42.779 --> 01:59:45.399 in social media certainly exacerbated anger in 01:59:45.399 --> 01:59:48.699 some people, but I think anger in the world is 01:59:48.699 --> 01:59:54.680 just a part of it. frustration, inequality, problems 01:59:54.680 --> 01:59:58.720 that are so clear but are not solved, and all 01:59:58.720 --> 02:00:01.260 the issues that people have. I mean, it's not 02:00:01.260 --> 02:00:04.239 a coincidence that a lot of the mass violence 02:00:04.239 --> 02:00:06.380 that you're seeing in this country, mass looting 02:00:06.380 --> 02:00:07.960 and all these different things, are being done 02:00:07.960 --> 02:00:11.220 by poor people. Do you think AGI will be an equalizing 02:00:11.220 --> 02:00:13.619 force for the world or further inequality? I 02:00:13.619 --> 02:00:16.020 think it would be, it depends on how it's implemented. 02:00:16.739 --> 02:00:19.880 My concern is, again, what we were talking about 02:00:19.880 --> 02:00:22.699 before with some sort of a neural interface, 02:00:22.760 --> 02:00:26.119 that it will increase your ability to be productive 02:00:26.119 --> 02:00:29.000 to a point where you can control resources so 02:00:29.000 --> 02:00:31.619 much more than anyone else. And you will be able 02:00:31.619 --> 02:00:36.800 to advance your economic portfolio and your influence 02:00:36.800 --> 02:00:38.859 in the world through that, your amount of power 02:00:38.859 --> 02:00:43.710 that you can acquire. Before the other people 02:00:43.710 --> 02:00:46.890 can get involved, because I would imagine financially 02:00:46.890 --> 02:00:49.270 it'll be like cell phones. In the beginning, 02:00:49.289 --> 02:00:52.590 you remember when the movie Wall Street, when 02:00:52.590 --> 02:00:54.670 he had that big brick cell phone? I was like, 02:00:54.750 --> 02:00:56.470 look at him. He's out there on the beach with 02:00:56.470 --> 02:00:58.710 a phone. That was crazy. No one had one of those 02:00:58.710 --> 02:01:01.529 things back then. And they were so rare. I got 02:01:01.529 --> 02:01:04.350 one in 1994 when I first moved to California, 02:01:04.430 --> 02:01:05.869 and I thought I was living in the fucking future. 02:01:05.869 --> 02:01:08.369 Giant thing? No, it was a Motorola StarTAC. That 02:01:08.369 --> 02:01:10.909 was a cool phone. I actually had one in my car. 02:01:11.640 --> 02:01:13.920 In 1988, I was one of the first people to get 02:01:13.920 --> 02:01:16.380 a cell phone. I got one in my car. And it was 02:01:16.380 --> 02:01:20.000 great because my friend Bill Blumenreich, who 02:01:20.000 --> 02:01:23.939 runs the Comedy Connection, he would call me. 02:01:24.640 --> 02:01:26.060 Because he knew he could get a hold of me. Like 02:01:26.060 --> 02:01:28.140 if someone got sick or fell out, I could get 02:01:28.140 --> 02:01:30.640 a gig because he could call me. So I was in my 02:01:30.640 --> 02:01:31.979 car. I was like, Joe, what are you doing? Do 02:01:31.979 --> 02:01:34.079 you have a spot tonight? And I'm like, no, I'm 02:01:34.079 --> 02:01:36.520 open. He's like, fantastic. And so he'd give 02:01:36.520 --> 02:01:39.439 me gigs. So I got a bunch of gigs through this 02:01:39.439 --> 02:01:42.399 phone where it kind of paid itself. But I got 02:01:42.399 --> 02:01:44.579 it just because it was cool. Like I could drive 02:01:44.579 --> 02:01:46.699 down the street and call people. Dude, I'm driving 02:01:46.699 --> 02:01:49.520 and I'm calling you. Like it was nuts to be able 02:01:49.520 --> 02:01:51.460 to drive and I had a little antenna, a little 02:01:51.460 --> 02:01:54.899 squirrely pigtail antenna on my car, on the roof 02:01:54.899 --> 02:02:00.380 of the car. But now everyone has one. You can 02:02:00.380 --> 02:02:03.760 go to a third world country and people in small 02:02:03.760 --> 02:02:07.380 villages have phones. It's super common. It's 02:02:07.380 --> 02:02:09.739 everywhere. Essentially more people have phones 02:02:09.739 --> 02:02:12.039 than don't have phones. There's more phones than 02:02:12.039 --> 02:02:14.539 there are human beings. which is pretty fucking 02:02:14.539 --> 02:02:20.300 wild. And I think that that initial cost problem, 02:02:20.500 --> 02:02:23.760 it's going to be prohibitively expensive initially. 02:02:24.359 --> 02:02:26.479 And the problem is the wealthy people are going 02:02:26.479 --> 02:02:29.279 to be able to do that. And then the real crazy 02:02:29.279 --> 02:02:31.319 ones that wind up getting the holes drilled in 02:02:31.319 --> 02:02:34.180 their head. And if that stuff is effective, maybe 02:02:34.180 --> 02:02:36.800 there's problems with generation one, but generation 02:02:36.800 --> 02:02:40.630 two is better. There's going to be a time where 02:02:40.630 --> 02:02:42.350 you have to enter into the game. There's going 02:02:42.350 --> 02:02:43.829 to be a time where you have to sell your stocks. 02:02:44.649 --> 02:02:49.310 Don't wait too long. Hang on there. Go. And once 02:02:49.310 --> 02:02:52.550 that happens, my concern is that the people that 02:02:52.550 --> 02:02:56.210 have that will have such a massive advantage 02:02:56.210 --> 02:02:59.729 over everyone else that the gap between the haves 02:02:59.729 --> 02:03:02.890 and have -nots will be even further, and it'll 02:03:02.890 --> 02:03:05.510 be more polarizing. This is something I've changed 02:03:05.510 --> 02:03:10.460 my mind on. Someone at OpenAI said to me a few 02:03:10.460 --> 02:03:13.279 years ago, like, you really can't just let some 02:03:13.279 --> 02:03:15.579 people merge without a plan because it could 02:03:15.579 --> 02:03:19.899 be such an incredible distortion of power. And 02:03:19.899 --> 02:03:21.739 then we're going to have to have some sort of 02:03:21.739 --> 02:03:24.800 societal discussion about this. Yeah. That seems 02:03:24.800 --> 02:03:29.600 real. I think so at this point. Especially if 02:03:29.600 --> 02:03:34.640 it's as effective as... AGI is, or as, excuse 02:03:34.640 --> 02:03:39.640 me, ChatGPT is. ChatGPT is so amazing. When you 02:03:39.640 --> 02:03:42.180 enter into it information, you ask it questions, 02:03:42.319 --> 02:03:44.239 and it can give you answers, and you can ask 02:03:44.239 --> 02:03:46.079 it to code a website for you, and it does it 02:03:46.079 --> 02:03:48.340 instantly, and it solves problems that literally 02:03:48.340 --> 02:03:51.380 you would have to take decades to try to solve, 02:03:51.500 --> 02:03:54.420 and it gets to it right away. This is the dumbest 02:03:54.420 --> 02:03:57.579 it will ever be. Yeah, that's what's crazy. That's 02:03:57.579 --> 02:04:00.439 what's crazy. So imagine something like that, 02:04:00.460 --> 02:04:05.479 but even more advanced, multiple stages of improvement 02:04:05.479 --> 02:04:09.319 and innovation forward. And then it interfaces 02:04:09.319 --> 02:04:11.939 directly with the mind, but it only does it with 02:04:11.939 --> 02:04:14.260 the people that can afford it. And those people 02:04:14.260 --> 02:04:17.119 are just regular humans. So they haven't been 02:04:17.119 --> 02:04:23.729 enhanced. We haven't evolved. We still have all 02:04:23.729 --> 02:04:26.170 the human reward systems in place. We're still 02:04:26.170 --> 02:04:29.689 basically these territorial primates. And now 02:04:29.689 --> 02:04:33.069 we have, you know, you just imagine some fucking 02:04:33.069 --> 02:04:37.409 psychotic billionaire who now gets this implant. 02:04:37.960 --> 02:04:42.079 and decides to just completely hijack our financial 02:04:42.079 --> 02:04:45.619 systems, acquire all the resources, set into 02:04:45.619 --> 02:04:48.159 place regulations and influences that only benefit 02:04:48.159 --> 02:04:51.079 them, and then make sure that they can control 02:04:51.079 --> 02:04:52.699 it from there on out. How much do you think this 02:04:52.699 --> 02:04:55.020 actually, though, even requires like a physical 02:04:55.020 --> 02:04:58.539 implant or like a physical merge versus just 02:04:58.539 --> 02:05:02.340 some people have access to GPT -7 and can spend 02:05:02.340 --> 02:05:04.560 a lot on the inference compute for it and some 02:05:04.560 --> 02:05:07.739 don't? I think that's going to be very transformative 02:05:07.739 --> 02:05:13.300 too. But my thought is that once – I mean we 02:05:13.300 --> 02:05:16.800 have to think of what are the possibilities of 02:05:16.800 --> 02:05:19.520 a neural enhancement. If you think about the 02:05:19.520 --> 02:05:22.140 human mind and how the human mind interacts with 02:05:22.140 --> 02:05:25.039 the world, how you interact with language and 02:05:25.039 --> 02:05:31.180 thoughts and facts and something that is exponentially 02:05:31.180 --> 02:05:35.609 more powerful than that. But it also – Allows 02:05:35.609 --> 02:05:39.970 you to use the same emotions the same ego the 02:05:39.970 --> 02:05:44.109 same desires and drives jealousy lust hate anger 02:05:44.109 --> 02:05:48.829 all of those things but with this godlike power 02:05:48.829 --> 02:05:52.609 when one person can read minds and other people 02:05:52.609 --> 02:05:56.970 can't when one person has a completely accurate 02:05:56.970 --> 02:06:01.010 forecast of all of the trends in terms of stocks 02:06:01.010 --> 02:06:04.149 and yeah and resources and commodities and they 02:06:04.149 --> 02:06:07.840 can make choices based on those i totally see 02:06:07.840 --> 02:06:11.420 all of that the only thing i'm i feel a little 02:06:11.420 --> 02:06:18.760 confused about is you know human talking and 02:06:18.760 --> 02:06:21.119 listening bandwidth or typing and reading bandwidth 02:06:21.119 --> 02:06:23.560 is not very high but it's high enough where if 02:06:23.560 --> 02:06:25.720 you can just say like tell me everything that's 02:06:25.720 --> 02:06:27.239 going to happen in the stock market if i want 02:06:27.239 --> 02:06:28.659 to go make all the money what should i do right 02:06:28.659 --> 02:06:31.119 now and it goes and then just shows you on the 02:06:31.119 --> 02:06:34.630 screen even without a neural interface You're 02:06:34.630 --> 02:06:36.810 kind of a lot of the way to the scenario you're 02:06:36.810 --> 02:06:40.270 describing. Sure. With stocks. Or with like, 02:06:40.310 --> 02:06:43.090 you know, tell me how to like invent some new 02:06:43.090 --> 02:06:44.890 technology that will change the course of history. 02:06:45.970 --> 02:06:51.670 Yeah. Yeah. All those things. Like I think what 02:06:51.670 --> 02:06:54.270 somehow matters is access to massive amounts 02:06:54.270 --> 02:06:57.529 of computing power, especially like differentially 02:06:57.529 --> 02:06:59.909 massive amounts, maybe more than the interface 02:06:59.909 --> 02:07:02.989 itself. I think that certainly is going to play 02:07:02.989 --> 02:07:06.989 a massive factor in the amount of power and influence 02:07:06.989 --> 02:07:10.750 a human being has, having access to that. My 02:07:10.750 --> 02:07:14.289 concern is that what neural interfaces are going 02:07:14.289 --> 02:07:19.489 to do is now you're not a human mind interacting 02:07:19.489 --> 02:07:24.270 with that data. Now you are some massively advanced 02:07:24.270 --> 02:07:32.560 version of what a human mind is. And it has just 02:07:32.560 --> 02:07:37.359 profound possibilities that we can't even imagine. 02:07:37.539 --> 02:07:44.039 We can imagine, but we can't truly conceptualize 02:07:44.039 --> 02:07:46.439 them because we don't have the context. We don't 02:07:46.439 --> 02:07:49.100 have that ability and that possibility currently. 02:07:49.260 --> 02:07:53.619 We can just guess. But when it does get implemented, 02:07:54.020 --> 02:07:56.920 that you're dealing with a completely different 02:07:56.920 --> 02:08:04.100 being. The only true thing I can say is I don't 02:08:04.100 --> 02:08:10.220 know. Yeah. Do you wonder why it's you? Do you 02:08:10.220 --> 02:08:14.100 ever think like, how am I at the forefront of 02:08:14.100 --> 02:08:22.079 this spectacular change? Well, first of all, 02:08:22.100 --> 02:08:25.239 I think it's very much like, I think this is, 02:08:25.279 --> 02:08:27.399 you could make the statement for many companies, 02:08:27.460 --> 02:08:32.260 but none is as true for as OpenAI is like, The 02:08:32.260 --> 02:08:34.380 CEO is far from the most important person in 02:08:34.380 --> 02:08:37.199 the company. Like in our case, there's a large 02:08:37.199 --> 02:08:39.760 handful of researchers, each of which are individually 02:08:39.760 --> 02:08:42.659 more critical to the success we've had so far 02:08:42.659 --> 02:08:43.920 and that we will have in the future than me. 02:08:44.939 --> 02:08:49.739 But even that, and I bet those people really 02:08:49.739 --> 02:08:52.640 are like, hmm, this is weird to be them. But 02:08:52.640 --> 02:08:57.220 it's certainly weird enough for me that it ups 02:08:57.220 --> 02:08:59.560 my simulation hypothesis probability somewhat. 02:09:03.320 --> 02:09:09.520 If you had to give a guess, when you think about 02:09:09.520 --> 02:09:11.899 the possibility of simulation theory, what kind 02:09:11.899 --> 02:09:13.720 of percentage do you— I've never known how to 02:09:13.720 --> 02:09:18.159 put any number on it. Like, you know, every argument 02:09:18.159 --> 02:09:20.220 that I've read written explaining why it's like 02:09:20.220 --> 02:09:22.460 super high probability, that all seems reasonable 02:09:22.460 --> 02:09:25.079 to me. It feels impossible to reason about, though. 02:09:25.680 --> 02:09:30.020 What about you? Yeah, same thing. I'd go maybe. 02:09:30.750 --> 02:09:33.569 But it's still what it is and I have to exist. 02:09:33.689 --> 02:09:35.289 That's the main thing is I think it doesn't matter. 02:09:35.430 --> 02:09:40.430 I think it's like, okay. It kind of – it definitely 02:09:40.430 --> 02:09:43.789 matters, I guess, but there's not a way to know 02:09:43.789 --> 02:09:47.090 currently and also – What matters though? Well, 02:09:47.170 --> 02:09:50.279 if this really is – I mean – Our inherent understanding 02:09:50.279 --> 02:09:52.760 of life is that we are these biological creatures 02:09:52.760 --> 02:09:55.260 that interact with other biological creatures. 02:09:55.319 --> 02:09:59.340 We mate and breed and that this creates more 02:09:59.340 --> 02:10:02.439 of us. And that hopefully as society advances 02:10:02.439 --> 02:10:04.479 and we acquire more information, more understanding 02:10:04.479 --> 02:10:07.380 and knowledge, this next version of society will 02:10:07.380 --> 02:10:11.500 be superior to the version. Which is just how 02:10:11.500 --> 02:10:14.880 we look at society today. Nobody wants to live 02:10:14.880 --> 02:10:17.979 in 1860 where you died of a cold and there's 02:10:17.979 --> 02:10:20.880 no cure for infections. It's much better to be 02:10:20.880 --> 02:10:27.920 alive now. Like just inarguably. Unless you really 02:10:27.920 --> 02:10:30.619 do prefer the simple life that you see on Yellowstone 02:10:30.619 --> 02:10:33.840 or something. It's like what we're dealing with 02:10:33.840 --> 02:10:37.779 now. First of all. Access to information, the 02:10:37.779 --> 02:10:43.899 lack of ignorance. If you choose to seek out 02:10:43.899 --> 02:10:46.199 information, you have so much more access to 02:10:46.199 --> 02:10:48.279 it now than ever before. That's so cool. And 02:10:48.279 --> 02:10:51.159 over time, like if you go back to the beginning 02:10:51.159 --> 02:10:55.060 of written history to now. One of the things 02:10:55.060 --> 02:10:58.420 that is clearly evident is the more access to 02:10:58.420 --> 02:11:00.199 information, the better choices people can make. 02:11:00.260 --> 02:11:02.439 They don't always make better choices, but they 02:11:02.439 --> 02:11:04.680 certainly have much more of a potential to make 02:11:04.680 --> 02:11:06.560 better choices with more access to information. 02:11:07.880 --> 02:11:11.779 You know, we think that this is just this biological 02:11:11.779 --> 02:11:14.380 thing. But imagine if that's not what's going 02:11:14.380 --> 02:11:17.760 on. Imagine if this is a program and that you 02:11:17.760 --> 02:11:20.840 are just consciousness that's connected to this 02:11:20.840 --> 02:11:26.029 thing. That's creating this experience that is 02:11:26.029 --> 02:11:29.649 indistinguishable from what we like to think 02:11:29.649 --> 02:11:32.829 of as a real biological experience from carbon 02:11:32.829 --> 02:11:35.750 -based life forms interacting with solid physical 02:11:35.750 --> 02:11:42.149 things in the real world. It's still unclear 02:11:42.149 --> 02:11:44.069 to me what I'm supposed to do differently or 02:11:44.069 --> 02:11:45.390 think differently. Yeah, there's no answer. Yeah, 02:11:45.510 --> 02:11:48.329 you're 100 % right. What can you do differently? 02:11:48.569 --> 02:11:51.409 I mean if you exist as if it's a simulation, 02:11:51.489 --> 02:11:53.449 if you just live your life as if it's a simulation, 02:11:53.590 --> 02:11:57.489 is that – I don't know if that's the solution. 02:11:58.310 --> 02:12:01.149 I don't – I think – I mean it's real to me no 02:12:01.149 --> 02:12:04.630 matter what. It's real. Yeah. I'm going to live 02:12:04.630 --> 02:12:07.590 it that way. And that will be the problem with 02:12:07.590 --> 02:12:09.909 an actual simulation if and when it does get 02:12:09.909 --> 02:12:13.670 implemented. Yeah. If we do create an actual 02:12:13.670 --> 02:12:15.909 simulation that's indistinguishable from real 02:12:15.909 --> 02:12:19.750 life. Like what are the rules of the simulation? 02:12:20.050 --> 02:12:23.590 How does it work? Is that simulation fair and 02:12:23.590 --> 02:12:26.050 equitable and much more reasonable and peaceful? 02:12:26.409 --> 02:12:29.189 Is there no war in that simulation? Should we 02:12:29.189 --> 02:12:32.869 all agree to hook up to it because we will have 02:12:32.869 --> 02:12:35.409 a completely different experience in life? And 02:12:35.409 --> 02:12:39.869 all the angst of crime and violence and the things 02:12:39.869 --> 02:12:42.270 that we truly are terrified of, there will be 02:12:42.270 --> 02:12:47.270 nonexistent in this simulation. Yeah. I mean, 02:12:47.289 --> 02:12:51.630 if we keep going, it seems like if you just extrapolate 02:12:51.630 --> 02:12:54.149 from where VR is now. Did you see the podcast 02:12:54.149 --> 02:12:58.149 that Lex Friedman did with Mark Zuckerberg? I 02:12:58.149 --> 02:12:59.729 saw some clips, but I haven't got to watch all 02:12:59.729 --> 02:13:02.029 of them. Bizarre, right? So they're essentially 02:13:02.029 --> 02:13:06.689 using very realistic physical avatars in the 02:13:06.689 --> 02:13:11.720 metaverse. Like, that's... That's step one. Maybe 02:13:11.720 --> 02:13:13.600 that's step three. Maybe it's a little bit on 02:13:13.600 --> 02:13:16.199 pong at that point. Yeah, maybe it's Atari. Maybe 02:13:16.199 --> 02:13:18.840 you're playing Space Invaders now. But whatever 02:13:18.840 --> 02:13:22.300 it is, it's on the path to this thing that will 02:13:22.300 --> 02:13:24.579 be indistinguishable. That seems inevitable. 02:13:24.880 --> 02:13:28.319 Those two things seem inevitable to me. The inevitable 02:13:28.319 --> 02:13:30.840 thing to me is that we will create a life form 02:13:30.840 --> 02:13:35.420 that is an artificial. intelligent life form 02:13:35.420 --> 02:13:38.500 that's far more advanced than us and once it 02:13:38.500 --> 02:13:40.840 becomes sentient it will be able to create a 02:13:40.840 --> 02:13:44.460 far better version of itself and then as it has 02:13:44.460 --> 02:13:47.760 better versions of itself it will keep going 02:13:47.760 --> 02:13:51.600 and if it keeps going it will reach god -like 02:13:51.600 --> 02:13:56.619 capabilities the complete understanding of every 02:13:56.619 --> 02:14:00.649 aspect of the universe and the structure of it 02:14:00.649 --> 02:14:03.789 itself, how to manipulate it, how to travel through 02:14:03.789 --> 02:14:08.590 it, how to communicate. And that, you know, if 02:14:08.590 --> 02:14:11.010 we keep going, if we survive a hundred years, 02:14:11.130 --> 02:14:14.050 a thousand years, 10 ,000 years, and we're still 02:14:14.050 --> 02:14:17.670 on this same technological exponential increasing 02:14:17.670 --> 02:14:23.170 and capability path, that's God. We become something 02:14:23.170 --> 02:14:27.880 like a God. And that might be what we do. That 02:14:27.880 --> 02:14:31.119 might be what intelligent, curious, innovative 02:14:31.119 --> 02:14:34.579 life actually does. It creates something that 02:14:34.579 --> 02:14:38.619 creates the very universe that we live in. Like 02:14:38.619 --> 02:14:40.319 creates the next simulation and then – Yeah. 02:14:40.399 --> 02:14:43.020 Maybe that's the birth of the universe itself 02:14:43.020 --> 02:14:46.500 is creativity and intelligence and that it all 02:14:46.500 --> 02:14:48.760 comes from that. I used to have this joke about 02:14:48.760 --> 02:14:52.520 the Big Bang. Like what if – What if the Big 02:14:52.520 --> 02:14:55.140 Bang is just a natural thing? Like humans get 02:14:55.140 --> 02:14:57.180 so advanced that they create a Big Bang machine. 02:14:57.520 --> 02:15:00.960 And then, you know, we're so autistic and riddled 02:15:00.960 --> 02:15:04.460 with Adderall that we have no concept or worry 02:15:04.460 --> 02:15:06.399 of the consequences. And someone's like, I'll 02:15:06.399 --> 02:15:09.159 fucking press it. And they press it and boom, 02:15:09.159 --> 02:15:12.880 we start from scratch every 14 billion years. 02:15:13.600 --> 02:15:18.789 And that's what a Big Bang is. I mean, I don't 02:15:18.789 --> 02:15:22.130 know where it goes, but I do know that if you 02:15:22.130 --> 02:15:24.449 looked at the human race from afar, if you were 02:15:24.449 --> 02:15:28.890 an alien life form completely detached from any 02:15:28.890 --> 02:15:31.050 understanding of our culture, any understanding 02:15:31.050 --> 02:15:35.050 of our biological imperatives, and you just looked 02:15:35.050 --> 02:15:38.250 at, like, what is this one dominant species doing 02:15:38.250 --> 02:15:41.600 on this planet? It makes better things. That's 02:15:41.600 --> 02:15:44.500 what it does. That I agree. It goes to war. It 02:15:44.500 --> 02:15:47.739 steals. It does a bunch of things that it shouldn't 02:15:47.739 --> 02:15:50.640 do. It pollutes. It does all these things that 02:15:50.640 --> 02:15:54.319 are terrible. But it also. It consistently and 02:15:54.319 --> 02:15:57.140 constantly creates better things, whether it's 02:15:57.140 --> 02:16:00.239 better weapons going from the catapult to the 02:16:00.239 --> 02:16:03.420 rifle to the cannonballs to the rocket ships 02:16:03.420 --> 02:16:05.699 to the hypersonic missiles to nuclear bombs. 02:16:05.819 --> 02:16:08.680 It creates better and better and better things. 02:16:08.819 --> 02:16:11.300 That's the number one thing it does. And it's 02:16:11.300 --> 02:16:16.039 never happy with what it has. And you add that 02:16:16.039 --> 02:16:19.579 to consumerism, which is baked into us, and this 02:16:19.579 --> 02:16:22.539 desire. this constant desire for new or better 02:16:22.539 --> 02:16:24.880 things. Well, that fuels that innovation because 02:16:24.880 --> 02:16:26.840 that gives it the resources that it needs to 02:16:26.840 --> 02:16:29.239 consistently innovate and constantly create newer 02:16:29.239 --> 02:16:32.000 and better things. Well, where, if I was an alien 02:16:32.000 --> 02:16:33.739 life form, I was like, Oh, what is it doing? 02:16:34.430 --> 02:16:36.350 It's trying to create better – well, what is 02:16:36.350 --> 02:16:39.569 the forefront of it? Technology. Technology is 02:16:39.569 --> 02:16:41.590 the most transformative, the most spectacular, 02:16:41.850 --> 02:16:44.489 the most interesting thing that we create and 02:16:44.489 --> 02:16:47.950 the most alien thing. The fact that we just are 02:16:47.950 --> 02:16:50.209 so comfortable that you can FaceTime with someone 02:16:50.209 --> 02:16:53.510 in New Zealand like instantly. We can get used 02:16:53.510 --> 02:16:55.870 to anything pretty quickly. Anything. And take 02:16:55.870 --> 02:16:59.270 it for granted almost. Yeah. And, well, if you 02:16:59.270 --> 02:17:00.829 were an alien life form and you were looking 02:17:00.829 --> 02:17:02.860 at us, you're like, well, what is it doing? Oh, 02:17:02.860 --> 02:17:04.659 it keeps making better things. It's going to 02:17:04.659 --> 02:17:06.760 keep making better things. Well, if it keeps 02:17:06.760 --> 02:17:08.639 making better things, it's going to make a better 02:17:08.639 --> 02:17:11.620 version of a thinking thing. And it's doing that 02:17:11.620 --> 02:17:13.680 right now. And you're a part of that. It's going 02:17:13.680 --> 02:17:15.780 to make a better version of a thinking thing. 02:17:15.840 --> 02:17:17.239 Well, that better version of a thinking thing, 02:17:17.299 --> 02:17:19.920 it's basically now in the amoeba stage. It's 02:17:19.920 --> 02:17:23.579 in the small multicellular life form stage. Well, 02:17:23.659 --> 02:17:27.979 what if that... version becomes a fucking oppenheimer 02:17:27.979 --> 02:17:30.639 what if that version because like if it scales 02:17:30.639 --> 02:17:34.639 up so far yeah that it becomes so hyper intelligent 02:17:34.639 --> 02:17:39.559 that it is completely alien to any other intelligent 02:17:39.559 --> 02:17:42.159 life form that has ever existed here before and 02:17:42.159 --> 02:17:44.379 it constantly does the same thing makes better 02:17:44.379 --> 02:17:46.520 and better versions of it well where does that 02:17:46.520 --> 02:17:49.889 go it goes to a god It goes to something like 02:17:49.889 --> 02:17:53.610 a god. And maybe god is a real thing. But maybe 02:17:53.610 --> 02:17:57.389 it's a real consequence of this process that 02:17:57.389 --> 02:18:00.350 human beings have of consistently, constantly 02:18:00.350 --> 02:18:04.069 innovating and constantly having this desire 02:18:04.069 --> 02:18:10.049 to push this envelope of creativity and of technological 02:18:10.049 --> 02:18:14.530 power. I guess it comes down to maybe a definitional 02:18:14.530 --> 02:18:17.079 disagreement about… What you mean by it becomes 02:18:17.079 --> 02:18:21.579 a god. I can totally – I think it becomes something 02:18:21.579 --> 02:18:24.940 much – like unbelievably much smarter and more 02:18:24.940 --> 02:18:27.500 capable than we are. And what does that thing 02:18:27.500 --> 02:18:31.159 become if that keeps going? And maybe the way 02:18:31.159 --> 02:18:34.000 you mean it as a godlike force is that that thing 02:18:34.000 --> 02:18:36.500 can then go create – can go simulate in a universe. 02:18:36.719 --> 02:18:40.940 Yes. Okay. That I can resonate with. I think 02:18:40.940 --> 02:18:42.940 whatever we create will still be subject to the 02:18:42.940 --> 02:18:45.639 laws of physics in this universe. Right. Yeah, 02:18:45.700 --> 02:18:48.700 maybe that is the overlying fabric that God exists 02:18:48.700 --> 02:18:51.860 in. The God word is a fucked up word because 02:18:51.860 --> 02:18:54.659 it's just been so co -opted. But, you know, I 02:18:54.659 --> 02:18:56.760 was having this conversation with Stephen Meyer, 02:18:56.959 --> 02:19:00.899 who is a physicist. I believe he's a physicist. 02:19:01.200 --> 02:19:05.340 And he's also religious. It was a real weird 02:19:05.340 --> 02:19:07.159 conversation, very fascinating conversation. 02:19:07.260 --> 02:19:08.559 What kind of religion? A believer in Christ. 02:19:08.819 --> 02:19:12.059 Yeah, he even believes in the resurrection, which 02:19:12.059 --> 02:19:15.319 I found very interesting. But, you know, it's 02:19:15.319 --> 02:19:18.139 interesting communicating with him because he 02:19:18.139 --> 02:19:24.440 has these little pre -designed speeches that 02:19:24.440 --> 02:19:26.659 he's encountered all these questions so many 02:19:26.659 --> 02:19:29.840 times. That he has these very well -worded, very 02:19:29.840 --> 02:19:32.719 articulate responses to these things that I sense 02:19:32.719 --> 02:19:34.920 are like bits. You know, like when I'm talking 02:19:34.920 --> 02:19:37.639 to a comic. Like a comic, like, oh, I got this 02:19:37.639 --> 02:19:40.520 bit on train travel. And they tell you the bit. 02:19:40.700 --> 02:19:43.440 Like that's what it's like. He has bits on why 02:19:43.440 --> 02:19:46.540 he believes in Jesus and why he believes. And 02:19:46.540 --> 02:19:49.479 very, very intelligent guy. But I propose the 02:19:49.479 --> 02:19:52.139 question, when we're thinking about God, what 02:19:52.139 --> 02:19:54.780 if instead of God created the universe, what 02:19:54.780 --> 02:19:58.139 if the universe is God? And the creative force 02:19:58.139 --> 02:20:01.420 of all life and of everything is the universe 02:20:01.420 --> 02:20:04.200 itself. Instead of thinking that there's this 02:20:04.200 --> 02:20:07.420 thing that created us. This is like close to 02:20:07.420 --> 02:20:08.920 a lot of the Eastern religions. I think this 02:20:08.920 --> 02:20:10.899 is an easier thing to wrap my mind around than 02:20:10.899 --> 02:20:14.979 any other religions for me. And that is – when 02:20:14.979 --> 02:20:17.639 I do psychedelics, I get that feeling. I get 02:20:17.639 --> 02:20:21.690 that feeling like there's this insane soup. of 02:20:21.690 --> 02:20:25.409 like innovation and and and connectivity that 02:20:25.409 --> 02:20:30.489 exists all around us but our minds are so primal 02:20:30.489 --> 02:20:32.909 we're this fucking thing you know this is this 02:20:32.909 --> 02:20:36.129 is what we used to be and that what is that it's 02:20:36.129 --> 02:20:39.110 um there's a guy named uh shane against the machine 02:20:39.110 --> 02:20:42.469 who's this artist who created this it's a chimpanzee 02:20:42.469 --> 02:20:44.889 skull that he made out of zildjian symbols so 02:20:44.889 --> 02:20:47.489 you see that it's got a little zildjian he left 02:20:47.489 --> 02:20:49.530 that on the back and he just made this dope art 02:20:49.530 --> 02:20:54.670 piece cool It's just cool. But I wonder if our 02:20:54.670 --> 02:20:58.270 limitations are that we are an advanced version 02:20:58.270 --> 02:21:02.030 of primates. We still have all these things that 02:21:02.030 --> 02:21:04.030 we talk about, jealousy, envy, anxiety, lust, 02:21:04.329 --> 02:21:07.670 anger, fear, violence, all these things that 02:21:07.670 --> 02:21:10.729 are detrimental but were important for us to 02:21:10.729 --> 02:21:15.110 survive and get to this point. And that as time 02:21:15.110 --> 02:21:17.489 goes on, we will figure out a way to engineer 02:21:17.489 --> 02:21:21.940 those out. And that as intelligent life becomes 02:21:21.940 --> 02:21:25.180 more intelligent and we create a version of intelligent 02:21:25.180 --> 02:21:27.959 life, that's far more intelligent than what we 02:21:27.959 --> 02:21:30.600 are. We're far more capable of what we are. If 02:21:30.600 --> 02:21:33.899 that keeps going, if it just keeps going, I mean, 02:21:33.920 --> 02:21:36.979 chat GPT. Imagine if you go to chat GPT and go 02:21:36.979 --> 02:21:41.079 back to Socrates and show him that, explain that 02:21:41.079 --> 02:21:43.540 and show him a phone and, you know, and put it 02:21:43.540 --> 02:21:45.079 on a phone and have access to it. He'd be like. 02:21:45.579 --> 02:21:48.319 what have you done? Like, what is this? I bet 02:21:48.319 --> 02:21:49.719 he'd be much more impressed with the phone than 02:21:49.719 --> 02:21:52.719 Chachi PT. I think he would be impressed with 02:21:52.719 --> 02:21:54.940 the phone's abilities to communicate for sure, 02:21:55.059 --> 02:21:57.700 but then the access to information would be so 02:21:57.700 --> 02:22:01.479 profound. I mean, back then, I mean, look, you're 02:22:01.479 --> 02:22:04.420 dealing with a time when Galileo was put under 02:22:04.420 --> 02:22:07.479 house arrest because he had the gumption to say 02:22:07.479 --> 02:22:09.180 that the Earth is not the center of the universe. 02:22:09.899 --> 02:22:12.500 Well, now we fucking know it's not. Like, we 02:22:12.500 --> 02:22:16.250 have satellites. We send... literal cameras into 02:22:16.250 --> 02:22:19.889 orbit take photos of things no I totally get 02:22:19.889 --> 02:22:22.170 that I just meant that we kind of know what it's 02:22:22.170 --> 02:22:24.770 like to talk to a smart person and so in that 02:22:24.770 --> 02:22:26.729 sense you're like oh alright I didn't think you 02:22:26.729 --> 02:22:28.909 could like talk to a not person and have them 02:22:28.909 --> 02:22:31.090 be person like in some responses some of the 02:22:31.090 --> 02:22:34.129 time but a phone man if you just like woke up 02:22:34.129 --> 02:22:36.489 after 2000 years and there was like a phone that 02:22:36.489 --> 02:22:38.510 would you have no model for that you didn't get 02:22:38.510 --> 02:22:41.129 to get there gradually yeah no you didn't get 02:22:42.440 --> 02:22:44.420 My friend Eddie Griffin has a joke about that. 02:22:45.139 --> 02:22:47.739 He's about how Alexander Graham Bell had to be 02:22:47.739 --> 02:22:50.219 doing Coke. He goes, because only someone on 02:22:50.219 --> 02:22:52.440 Coke would be like, I want to talk to someone 02:22:52.440 --> 02:22:57.739 who's not even here. And that's what a phone 02:22:57.739 --> 02:22:59.200 is. Is that something Coke makes people want 02:22:59.200 --> 02:23:01.500 to do? I don't know. I've never done Coke. But 02:23:01.500 --> 02:23:04.479 I would imagine it is. It seems to me like it 02:23:04.479 --> 02:23:07.219 just makes people angry and chaotic. Yeah, a 02:23:07.219 --> 02:23:12.760 little of that. But they also have ideas. Yeah, 02:23:12.799 --> 02:23:16.540 I mean, but back to this, where does it go? If 02:23:16.540 --> 02:23:20.340 it keeps going, it has to go to some impossible 02:23:20.340 --> 02:23:24.239 level of capability. I mean, just think of what 02:23:24.239 --> 02:23:28.639 we're able to do now with nuclear power and nuclear 02:23:28.639 --> 02:23:34.459 bombs. hypersonic missiles and just the insane 02:23:34.459 --> 02:23:37.440 physical things that we've been able to take 02:23:37.440 --> 02:23:40.760 out of the human creativity and imagination and 02:23:40.760 --> 02:23:43.799 through engineering and technology implement 02:23:43.799 --> 02:23:48.760 these physical devices that are indistinguishable 02:23:48.760 --> 02:23:51.600 from magic if you brought them 500 years ago 02:23:51.600 --> 02:23:55.579 yeah I think I think it's quite remarkable. So 02:23:55.579 --> 02:23:58.260 keep going. Keep going 100 ,000 years from now. 02:23:58.340 --> 02:24:00.739 If we're still here, if something like us is 02:24:00.739 --> 02:24:05.440 still here, what can it do? In the same way that 02:24:05.440 --> 02:24:07.079 I don't think Socrates would have predicted the 02:24:07.079 --> 02:24:09.260 phone, I can't predict that. No, I'm probably 02:24:09.260 --> 02:24:13.020 totally off. But maybe that's also why comets 02:24:13.020 --> 02:24:15.940 exist. Maybe it's a nice reset. Just like leave 02:24:15.940 --> 02:24:20.500 a few around, give them a distant memory of the 02:24:20.500 --> 02:24:23.379 utopian world that used to exist, have them go 02:24:23.379 --> 02:24:26.979 through thousands of years of barbarism, of horrific 02:24:26.979 --> 02:24:30.020 behavior, and then reestablish society. I mean, 02:24:30.020 --> 02:24:32.000 this is the Younger Dryas Impact Theory that 02:24:32.000 --> 02:24:34.579 allowed 11 ,800 years ago at the end of the Ice 02:24:34.579 --> 02:24:37.860 Age that we were hit by multiple comets that 02:24:37.860 --> 02:24:42.659 caused the instantaneous melting of the ice caps 02:24:42.659 --> 02:24:44.760 over North America. Flooded everything. Flooded 02:24:44.760 --> 02:24:47.239 everything. It's the source of the flood myths 02:24:47.239 --> 02:24:50.040 from the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Bible and 02:24:50.040 --> 02:24:53.879 all those things. And also there's physical evidence 02:24:53.879 --> 02:24:56.040 of it when they do core samples. There's high 02:24:56.040 --> 02:24:58.639 levels of iridium. which is very common in space, 02:24:58.840 --> 02:25:01.659 very rare on Earth. There's micro diamonds that 02:25:01.659 --> 02:25:04.559 are from impacts, and it's like 30 % of the Earth 02:25:04.559 --> 02:25:08.170 has evidence of this. And so it's very likely 02:25:08.170 --> 02:25:10.229 that these people that are proponents of this 02:25:10.229 --> 02:25:12.870 theory are correct and that this is why they 02:25:12.870 --> 02:25:15.170 find these ancient structures that they're now 02:25:15.170 --> 02:25:17.829 dating to like 11 ,000, 12 ,000 years ago when 02:25:17.829 --> 02:25:19.770 they thought people were hunter -gatherers. And 02:25:19.770 --> 02:25:22.069 they go, okay, maybe our timeline is really off 02:25:22.069 --> 02:25:23.829 and maybe this physical evidence of impact. Yeah, 02:25:23.829 --> 02:25:25.790 I've been watching that with interest. Yeah. 02:25:26.010 --> 02:25:28.370 Randall Carlson is the greatest guy to pay attention 02:25:28.370 --> 02:25:30.750 to when it comes to that. Yeah. He's kind of 02:25:30.750 --> 02:25:32.870 dedicated his whole life to it, which, by the 02:25:32.870 --> 02:25:34.829 way, happened because of a psychedelic experience. 02:25:35.659 --> 02:25:38.639 He was on acid once, and he was looking at this 02:25:38.639 --> 02:25:42.139 immense canyon, and he had this vision that it 02:25:42.139 --> 02:25:45.379 was created by instantaneous erosions of the 02:25:45.379 --> 02:25:48.940 polar caps, and that it just washed this wave 02:25:48.940 --> 02:25:52.459 of impossible water through the earth. It just 02:25:52.459 --> 02:25:56.340 caught these paths. And now there seems to be 02:25:56.340 --> 02:25:59.040 actual physical evidence of that, that that is 02:25:59.040 --> 02:26:03.260 probably what took place, and that we're just 02:26:03.260 --> 02:26:06.959 the survivors. And that we have reemerged in 02:26:06.959 --> 02:26:10.219 that society and human civilization occasionally 02:26:10.219 --> 02:26:15.100 gets set back to a primal place. Yeah. You know, 02:26:15.120 --> 02:26:17.860 who knows? If you're right that what happens 02:26:17.860 --> 02:26:20.879 here is we kind of edit out all of the impulses 02:26:20.879 --> 02:26:23.260 in ourselves that we don't like. We get to that 02:26:23.260 --> 02:26:25.180 world seems kind of boring. So maybe that's when 02:26:25.180 --> 02:26:27.079 we have to make a new simulation to watch people 02:26:27.079 --> 02:26:29.280 think they're going through some drama or something. 02:26:29.299 --> 02:26:32.809 Or maybe it's just. We get to this point where 02:26:32.809 --> 02:26:35.610 we have this power, but the haves and the have 02:26:35.610 --> 02:26:37.989 -nots, the divide is too great, and that people 02:26:37.989 --> 02:26:41.149 did get a hold of this technology and use it 02:26:41.149 --> 02:26:43.530 to oppress people who didn't have it, and that 02:26:43.530 --> 02:26:49.510 we didn't mitigate the human biological problems, 02:26:49.729 --> 02:26:51.670 the reward systems that we have. That I've got 02:26:51.670 --> 02:26:53.049 to have more and you've got to have less. Yes, 02:26:53.049 --> 02:26:56.709 this sort of natural inclination that we have 02:26:56.709 --> 02:26:59.770 for competition. And that someone hijacks that. 02:26:59.829 --> 02:27:02.549 I think this is going to be such a hugely important 02:27:02.549 --> 02:27:05.010 issue to get ahead of before the first people 02:27:05.010 --> 02:27:08.110 push that button. What do you think about when 02:27:08.110 --> 02:27:14.510 Elon was calling for a pause on AI? He was starting 02:27:14.510 --> 02:27:17.510 an AGI company while he was doing that. Yeah. 02:27:18.430 --> 02:27:21.649 Didn't he start it after he was calling for the 02:27:21.649 --> 02:27:24.110 pause? I think before, but I don't remember. 02:27:24.170 --> 02:27:25.690 In any case. Is it one of those you can't beat 02:27:25.690 --> 02:27:31.520 them, join them thing? I think the instinct of 02:27:31.520 --> 02:27:34.100 saying like, we've really got to figure out how 02:27:34.100 --> 02:27:41.620 to make this safe and good and like widely good 02:27:41.620 --> 02:27:47.399 is really important. But I think calling for 02:27:47.399 --> 02:27:54.579 a pause is like naive at best. I kind of like, 02:27:54.620 --> 02:28:00.030 I kind of think you can't make. progress on the 02:28:00.030 --> 02:28:02.030 safety part of this as we mentioned earlier by 02:28:02.030 --> 02:28:03.750 sitting like in a room and thinking hard you've 02:28:03.750 --> 02:28:05.510 got to see where the technology goes you've got 02:28:05.510 --> 02:28:08.469 to have contact with reality and then when you 02:28:08.469 --> 02:28:11.450 like but we're trying to like make progress towards 02:28:11.450 --> 02:28:14.049 AGI conditioned on it being safe and conditioned 02:28:14.049 --> 02:28:16.629 on it being beneficial and so when we hit any 02:28:16.629 --> 02:28:19.649 kind of like block we try to find a technical 02:28:19.649 --> 02:28:22.930 or a policy or a social solution to overcome 02:28:22.930 --> 02:28:25.450 it that could be about the limits of the technology 02:28:25.450 --> 02:28:27.829 and something not working and you know hallucinates 02:28:27.829 --> 02:28:30.129 or it's not getting smart or whatever or it could 02:28:30.129 --> 02:28:31.729 be there's this like safety issue and we've got 02:28:31.729 --> 02:28:33.969 to like redirect our resources to solve that 02:28:33.969 --> 02:28:37.790 but it's all like for me it's all this same thing 02:28:37.790 --> 02:28:40.350 of like we're trying to solve the problems that 02:28:40.350 --> 02:28:42.770 emerge at each step as we get where we're trying 02:28:42.770 --> 02:28:46.270 to go and you know maybe you can call it a pause 02:28:46.270 --> 02:28:49.049 if you want if you pause on capabilities to work 02:28:49.049 --> 02:28:51.920 on safety but In practice, I think the field 02:28:51.920 --> 02:28:54.719 has gotten a little bit wander on the axle there, 02:28:54.840 --> 02:28:58.700 and safety and capabilities are not these two 02:28:58.700 --> 02:29:00.659 separate things. This is, I think, one of the 02:29:00.659 --> 02:29:02.719 dirty secrets of the field. It's like we have 02:29:02.719 --> 02:29:05.840 this one way to make progress. We can understand 02:29:05.840 --> 02:29:10.120 and push on deep learning more, and that can 02:29:10.120 --> 02:29:13.840 be used in different ways, but I think it's that 02:29:13.840 --> 02:29:15.799 same technique that's going to help us eventually 02:29:15.799 --> 02:29:21.180 solve the safety. All of that said, As like a 02:29:21.180 --> 02:29:24.639 human, emotionally speaking, I super understand 02:29:24.639 --> 02:29:27.760 why it's tempting to call for a pause. Happens 02:29:27.760 --> 02:29:29.239 all the time in life, right? This is moving too 02:29:29.239 --> 02:29:32.739 fast. Right. We got to take a pause here. Yeah. 02:29:33.719 --> 02:29:36.479 How much of a concern is it in terms of national 02:29:36.479 --> 02:29:39.799 security that we are the ones that come up with 02:29:39.799 --> 02:29:46.979 this first? Well, I would say that if an adversary 02:29:46.979 --> 02:29:50.739 of ours comes up with it first. And uses it against 02:29:50.739 --> 02:29:53.700 us and we don't have some level of capability. 02:29:53.940 --> 02:29:57.319 That feels really bad. Yeah. But I hope that 02:29:57.319 --> 02:30:03.280 what happens is this can be a moment where. To 02:30:03.280 --> 02:30:05.200 tie it back to the conversation, we kind of come 02:30:05.200 --> 02:30:07.420 together and overcome our base impulses and say, 02:30:07.479 --> 02:30:10.319 like, let's all do this as a club together. That 02:30:10.319 --> 02:30:13.120 would be better. That would be nice. And maybe 02:30:13.120 --> 02:30:17.899 through. and through the implementation of this 02:30:17.899 --> 02:30:21.780 technology, it will make translation instantaneous 02:30:21.780 --> 02:30:24.639 and easy. Well, that's already happened. Right. 02:30:25.059 --> 02:30:27.520 But, I mean, it hasn't happened in real time 02:30:27.520 --> 02:30:31.540 to the point where you can accurately communicate. 02:30:31.899 --> 02:30:38.420 Very soon. Very soon. Very soon. Yeah. I do think, 02:30:38.420 --> 02:30:42.340 for what it's worth, that the world is going 02:30:42.340 --> 02:30:45.219 to come together here. I don't think people have 02:30:45.219 --> 02:30:47.899 quite realized the stakes. But this is like – 02:30:47.899 --> 02:30:50.520 I don't think this is a geopolitical – if this 02:30:50.520 --> 02:30:52.360 comes down to like a geopolitical fight or race, 02:30:52.420 --> 02:30:56.659 I don't think there's any winners. And so I'm 02:30:56.659 --> 02:31:00.200 optimistic about people coming together. Yeah, 02:31:00.200 --> 02:31:04.360 I am too. I mean I think most people would like 02:31:04.360 --> 02:31:07.559 that if you asked the vast majority of the human 02:31:07.559 --> 02:31:09.700 beings that are alive. Wouldn't it be better 02:31:09.700 --> 02:31:14.780 if everybody got along? You know, maybe you can't 02:31:14.780 --> 02:31:20.219 go all the way there and say we're just going 02:31:20.219 --> 02:31:23.620 to have one global effort. But I think at least 02:31:23.620 --> 02:31:26.360 we can get to a point where we have one global 02:31:26.360 --> 02:31:29.360 set of rules, safety standards, organization 02:31:29.360 --> 02:31:31.100 that makes sure everyone's following the rules. 02:31:31.219 --> 02:31:33.399 We did this for atomic weapons. There have been 02:31:33.399 --> 02:31:36.139 similar things in the world of biology. I think 02:31:36.139 --> 02:31:39.180 we'll get there. That's a good example, nuclear 02:31:39.180 --> 02:31:45.040 weapons. We know the destructive capability of 02:31:45.040 --> 02:31:47.680 them, and because of that, we haven't detonated 02:31:47.680 --> 02:31:52.000 one since 1947. Pretty incredible. Pretty incredible, 02:31:52.299 --> 02:31:56.559 other than tests. We haven't used one in terms 02:31:56.559 --> 02:31:59.420 of war. 45 or 47? When was the end of the World 02:31:59.420 --> 02:32:03.979 War II? Wasn't it 47? When they dropped the bombs? 02:32:04.819 --> 02:32:06.620 I think that was 45. I was wondering if there 02:32:06.620 --> 02:32:08.420 was more after that I didn't know about. No, 02:32:08.540 --> 02:32:11.510 it might be 45. I think it was, yeah. 45. So 02:32:11.510 --> 02:32:14.110 from 1945, which is pretty extraordinary. That's 02:32:14.110 --> 02:32:15.829 right. It's remarkable. I would not have predicted 02:32:15.829 --> 02:32:18.770 that, I think, if I could teleport back to 45. 02:32:18.969 --> 02:32:21.409 No. I would have thought, oh, my God, this is 02:32:21.409 --> 02:32:23.690 just going to be something that people do, just 02:32:23.690 --> 02:32:26.750 launch bombs on cities. Yeah. I mean, I would 02:32:26.750 --> 02:32:29.389 have said, like, we're not going to survive this 02:32:29.389 --> 02:32:31.409 for very long. And there was a real fear of that. 02:32:31.510 --> 02:32:33.930 For sure. It's pretty extraordinary that they've 02:32:33.930 --> 02:32:36.370 managed to stop that, this threat of mutually 02:32:36.370 --> 02:32:39.959 assured destruction. Self -destruction, destruction, 02:32:40.340 --> 02:32:42.139 universe. I mean, the whole world. We have enough 02:32:42.139 --> 02:32:45.459 weapons to literally make the world uninhabitable. 02:32:45.459 --> 02:32:48.639 Totally. And because of that, we haven't done 02:32:48.639 --> 02:32:52.420 it, which is a good sign. I was going to say, 02:32:52.459 --> 02:32:54.120 I think that should give some hope. Yeah, it 02:32:54.120 --> 02:32:57.100 should. I mean, Steven Pinker gets a lot of shit 02:32:57.100 --> 02:32:59.680 for his work because he just sort of downplays. 02:33:01.670 --> 02:33:04.090 violence today. But it's not that he's downplaying 02:33:04.090 --> 02:33:06.030 violence today. He's just looking at statistical 02:33:06.030 --> 02:33:08.450 trends. If you're looking at the reality of life 02:33:08.450 --> 02:33:11.950 today versus life 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 02:33:12.090 --> 02:33:15.209 it's far more safer. Why do you think that's 02:33:15.209 --> 02:33:17.250 a controversial thing? Why can't someone say, 02:33:17.329 --> 02:33:18.709 sure, we still have problems, but it's getting 02:33:18.709 --> 02:33:20.309 better? Because people don't want to say that. 02:33:21.049 --> 02:33:23.409 Especially people who are activists. They're 02:33:23.409 --> 02:33:27.079 completely... engrossed in this idea that there's 02:33:27.079 --> 02:33:29.239 problems today. And these problems are huge. 02:33:29.459 --> 02:33:33.139 And there's Nazis. But no one's saying there's 02:33:33.139 --> 02:33:35.100 not huge problems today. Right. No one's saying 02:33:35.100 --> 02:33:36.780 there's not. But just to say things are better 02:33:36.780 --> 02:33:38.239 today. Yeah, I guess that. To some people, they 02:33:38.239 --> 02:33:40.139 just don't want to hear that. Right. But those 02:33:40.139 --> 02:33:41.879 are also people that are addicted to the problems. 02:33:42.200 --> 02:33:44.540 The problems become their whole life. Solving 02:33:44.540 --> 02:33:47.540 those problems become their identity. Being involved 02:33:47.540 --> 02:33:49.700 in the solutions or what they believe are solutions 02:33:49.700 --> 02:33:52.950 to those problems become their life's work. And 02:33:52.950 --> 02:33:54.530 someone comes along and says, actually, life 02:33:54.530 --> 02:33:57.209 is safer than it's ever been before. Interactions 02:33:57.209 --> 02:33:58.909 with police is safer. I can see that that's deeply 02:33:58.909 --> 02:34:03.709 invalidated. Yeah. But also true. And again, 02:34:03.930 --> 02:34:06.829 what is the problem? Why can't people recognize 02:34:06.829 --> 02:34:10.030 that? Well, it's the primate brain. I mean, it's 02:34:10.030 --> 02:34:11.989 all the problems that we highlighted earlier. 02:34:12.270 --> 02:34:16.750 And that might be the solution to overcoming 02:34:16.750 --> 02:34:19.649 that is through technology. And that might be 02:34:19.649 --> 02:34:22.049 the only way we can do it without a long period 02:34:22.049 --> 02:34:25.190 of evolution. Because biological evolution is 02:34:25.190 --> 02:34:28.809 so relatively slow in comparison to technological 02:34:28.809 --> 02:34:33.350 evolution. And that might be our bottleneck, 02:34:33.350 --> 02:34:35.809 is that we just still are dealing with this primate 02:34:35.809 --> 02:34:40.549 body. And that something like artificial general 02:34:40.549 --> 02:34:42.969 intelligence or something like some implemented 02:34:42.969 --> 02:34:49.049 form of engaging with it, whether it's... neural 02:34:49.049 --> 02:34:52.850 link, something that shifts the way the mind 02:34:52.850 --> 02:34:56.430 interfaces with other minds. Isn't it wild that 02:34:56.430 --> 02:34:58.049 speaking of biological evolution, there will 02:34:58.049 --> 02:35:02.909 be people, I think, who were alive for the invention 02:35:02.909 --> 02:35:04.569 or discovery, whatever you want to call it, of 02:35:04.569 --> 02:35:07.229 the transistor. They will also be alive for the 02:35:07.229 --> 02:35:10.709 creation of AGI, one human lifetime. Yeah. You 02:35:10.709 --> 02:35:13.510 want to know a wild one? From the implementation 02:35:13.510 --> 02:35:17.010 from Orville and Wilbur Wright. flying the plane, 02:35:17.170 --> 02:35:19.270 it was less than 50 years before someone dropped 02:35:19.270 --> 02:35:22.590 an atomic bomb out of it. That's wild. That's 02:35:22.590 --> 02:35:26.430 fucking crazy. That's crazy. Less than 40, right? 02:35:26.809 --> 02:35:33.809 That's crazy. Yeah. Bananas. I mean... 60 -something 02:35:33.809 --> 02:35:37.690 years to land on the moon. Nuts. Nuts. Where, 02:35:37.809 --> 02:35:40.850 you know, where is it going? I mean, it's just 02:35:40.850 --> 02:35:44.340 guesswork. But it's interesting. For sure. I 02:35:44.340 --> 02:35:45.940 mean, it's the most fascinating thing of our 02:35:45.940 --> 02:35:48.620 time, for sure. It's fascinating intellectually, 02:35:48.840 --> 02:35:51.479 and I also think it is one of these things that 02:35:51.479 --> 02:35:57.299 will be tremendously net beneficial. Yeah. We've 02:35:57.299 --> 02:36:00.079 been talking a lot about problems in the world, 02:36:00.100 --> 02:36:02.180 and I think that's just always a nice reminder 02:36:02.180 --> 02:36:05.120 of how much we get to improve, and we're going 02:36:05.120 --> 02:36:07.280 to get to improve a lot, and I think this will 02:36:07.280 --> 02:36:11.319 be the most powerful tool we have yet created 02:36:11.319 --> 02:36:14.350 to help us go do that. I think you're right. 02:36:14.909 --> 02:36:17.510 And this was an awesome conversation. Thanks 02:36:17.510 --> 02:36:19.309 for having me. Thank you for being here. I really 02:36:19.309 --> 02:36:21.309 appreciate it. And thanks for everything. Keep 02:36:21.309 --> 02:36:24.750 us posted. Will do. And if you create Hal, let 02:36:24.750 --> 02:36:28.270 us know. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, 02:36:28.290 --> 02:36:28.450 everybody.