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Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1942. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Contemporary Espionage Literature, Global Security Dynamics, and Military Intelligence Narratives. Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan

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Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan Podcast by

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night. All day. What's up, Mark? How are you?

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Nice to meet you, man. It's very nice to meet

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you. I'm on the 11th book of yours now. So the

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whole Gray Man series. I'm on Sierra 6. Yeah.

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The new one comes out? immediately so yeah 12

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they sent me the new one good yeah so i have

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a copy of it that's awesome i appreciate your

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reading it's uh you write some fucked up books

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man you seem like such a normal guy i was always

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wondering i'm like how does someone write like

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this and not be a total psycho like the fact

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that you have those thoughts in your mind and

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you can Envision and create these scenarios in

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your brain. Yeah, that pops into my head a lot

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when I'm talking to people. Aunt who's passed

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away, but she was 93. And, you know, it's like,

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hey, Dorothy, here's my book about sex trafficking.

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I hope you enjoy it. You know, she read it because

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she would my aunt. If I joined the Taliban, she'd

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be like, well, you know, they have some nice

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clothing or something. She'd never find a positive.

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She'd find a positive. So she never complained

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about anything. But, yeah, I do run into people

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all the time, you know. kids parents or you know

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on my soccer team my kids soccer team or whatever

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and and i'm like i wonder what they think of

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me because whatever they know yeah like how many

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of them have read your book yeah it's the ones

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that say they've read my books and then i kind

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of feel like ah crap yeah i get that with parents

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when they say they've listened to my podcast

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i really love your podcast i'm like shit yeah

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i'm like what kind of psycho stuff do we have

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to talk about now but but you're Your books are

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so violent. They're so – it's like for me, it's

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– I really – I listen to them on audio when I'm

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in the sauna all the time. Oh, great. Because

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the sauna is so torturous because I keep it at

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190 degrees and I'm in there for 25 minutes.

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It's fucking rough. Yeah. And it's like that

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kind of like – the kind of insane narratives

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that you create, the kind of – you know, situations

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that you create in your mind. They're very good

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when you're suffering. Yeah. Yeah. I have a blue

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collar like philosophy about writing. Like I

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like generating a product that people can use

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if their flights delayed or, you know, they're

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snowed in or whatever. And I get people emailing

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me all the time. It's like, hey, I read your

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book when my mom was sick and I was in the hospital.

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And, you know, I like that, you know, that it

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serves a sort of physical purpose. You know,

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like it's a it's an it's an instrument. It's

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not just an idea. It's a great instrument of

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escapism. Yeah. Because. because it's so compelling

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and because the books are so interesting. And

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by the way, shout out to Jack Carr because Jack

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Carr is the guy who turned me on. That's fantastic.

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Because I had read his first book and I was like,

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this is great. Do you have any other authors

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that you recommend? Like who are you into? And

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then he told me about you. Yeah, yeah. We've

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been friends before his first book came out.

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We were connected with one another through a

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guy in the firearms industry. And I was like,

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yeah, I think this guy, I read his book. I was

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like, yeah, he's going somewhere. Little did

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I know, I think he'd already had it optioned.

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Yeah, for... TV. Yeah, he's just an awesome person,

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too. Just a really great guy. I met him a few

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years back in elk hunting camp. That's actually

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where I met him, in Utah. I didn't know who he

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was. I hadn't read any of his books. He gave

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me a copy of his book. Just seemed like a really

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nice guy. I'm like, this book is fucking great.

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He did great with the series, too. I was impressed

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with it. I was really impressed. I enjoyed the

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Gray Man movie. But it was not as good as your

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book. Thank you for saying that. It just wasn't

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the same story. Like they Hollywoodized it. Absolutely.

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You know, I liked it. And what I say, and I don't

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know how this makes me sound, it's like the movie

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is the best possible commercial for my writing.

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And if you're a writer, you want eyeballs on

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your work. And so I love the movie. And, you

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know, there's bits of dialogue in there and things

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they did with the plot that I really liked. But,

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you know, it's not as gritty. Not nearly. Yeah.

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And they do things that they have to do shorthand

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in a movie. I get 100 ,000 words to write a book

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or 150 ,000 words to write a book. So I have

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some luxuries that they don't have putting something

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on the screen. But I like the fact that they're

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different because. There's still a reason to

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read my book. If you saw the movie and enjoyed

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it, hopefully it turns you on to the book and

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then you see something different in there. No,

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I definitely think there's that element to it

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because it is – it's for sure a Hollywoodized

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version of these gritty books that you write.

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But it's also good. Like if you didn't know about

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the book and you just saw the movie, it's good.

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Yeah. They're two different things. But the book

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is so much fucking nastier. Thank you. And also

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– I said thank you. you i don't know if that's

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what i should say but court gentry in your books

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is just so much different than ryan in the movies

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it's just like yeah i mean they did a lot without

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dialogue which i appreciated and i liked you

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know he'd do a lot with a look but i mean when

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you in a book you're able to get into the characters

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had quite a bit quite a bit more so it's a different

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experience if you could pick a person like an

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actor if you could start from scratch no disrespect

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to it's ryan reynolds or right Gosling. Why do

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I always fuck that up? I always fuck that up.

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I couldn't pick either one of them out of a fucking

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lineup to save my life. Gosling. Ryan Gosling.

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I really like the guy, too, by the way. Who would

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you pick if you could just say any actor? Who

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do you think you would go with? You know, that's

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a tough question because that thing has been

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in Hollywood. The Gray Man's been in Hollywood

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since two months before the little paperback

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came out in 2009. So it's been bouncing around.

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And I've heard every actor. At one point, Brad

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Pitt was signed on to it. Really? Yeah, yeah,

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like back 2011 or something. And then it fell

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apart and it came back. And each time they would

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send me a script or whoever was doing it. Darren

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wanted to do it. What? Yeah, they rewrote the

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whole script. She wanted to be the girl? No,

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she wanted to be Court Gentry. Oh, my God. So

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they wrote a script for it, and it was good screenwriters.

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And I remember reading the script going like...

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Was it the gray woman or the gray non -binary

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person? It was still the gray man. Her name was

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still Court Gentry. What? But everything was

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different. They never really explained, is that

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short for Courtney or something? Oh, my God.

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But it was just a completely different plot.

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Thank God they didn't do that. I thought if they

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changed, you know, like... And I love her because

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she had just done Fury Road. So, I mean, I'd

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love to write something for her to be in. I didn't

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see Fury Road. Oh, the Mad Max. Oh, Mad Max.

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Yeah. OK. She was so good. But as an author,

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you couldn't put out the Gray Man novel with

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her face on it. And they opened the book and

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it has nothing to do with a woman. And as much

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as I love her, like I was like, well, this isn't

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going to, you know. sell books or get eyes in

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my work the screenplay was actually really good

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but i remember thinking if i went to the theater

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and saw it and had a different title i would

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not even know there'd be like one scene where

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i'm like oh yeah i did a thing on a plane too

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you know it was so different it was a completely

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different plot it was good i wish they'd make

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it and call it something else yeah make it and

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call it something else you don't call it the

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gray man That's such a weird choice. Yeah, yeah.

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At one point, like real early on when it first

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got optioned, people were asking me who should

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play the character. And I thought it would be

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somebody who's not like Rambo or anything like

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that. So I was saying like Casey Affleck or somebody

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like that. Oh, interesting. That you wouldn't

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expect in a big action film. But wouldn't you

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need someone who's like physically formidable?

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You know. The thing is I've written 12 books,

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and I've never once had him working out. I've

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never shown him working out or even really training.

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You talked a couple of times about him doing

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calisthenics or something. Yeah, I've thrown

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it in a little bit because I'm like, all right,

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how does this possibly happen? How does he keep

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these perishable skills and his fitness up? But

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there's actors that I really like, like Max Martini.

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I don't know if you know who that is. I don't

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know who that is. If you saw him, he's he he

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was in 13 hours. It was a really good movie.

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And the Michael Bay film. Wow. Look at that.

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That's amazing. And so he's you know, he's like

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a formidable dude and a really good actor. But

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there's you know, he doesn't. I like the physical

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presence of him. Yeah, he might be good, too,

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because even though he's kind of recognizable,

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it's not Brad Pitt. Like every time Brad Pitt's

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in a movie, it's Brad Pitt. If that guy's in

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a movie, you could say, oh, I think I've seen

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that guy in something before. But he's court

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gentry. Yeah, exactly. Well, I got a ton of people

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mad that Ryan Gosling was in it before it came

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out. And they were like, you need to get some

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unknown guy because nobody recognizes the great

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man. And I'm like. You probably don't understand

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how $200 million movies work. They don't. What

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we're going to do is we're going to get this

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guy out, you know, find the guy at the mall and

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make him, you know, it's just not how it works.

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It's too bad because I don't really know if it

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makes a difference. I think they think it makes

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a difference. But I think if you have a movie

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that has an amazing plot and a great. like trailer

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and it looks wild and like people i think people

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get sucked into it anyway yeah and and honestly

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like one of the best films i've ever seen in

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my life which is an action film it's a korean

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film called the man from nowhere and it's also

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and fortunately it came out after the gray man

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did otherwise people would think i'd ripped off

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the gray man um because it's about A former assassin

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who's trying to lay low and he ends up having

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to rescue this girl. Well, the book, though,

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came so much earlier than the movie. Like, how

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many years was it between you writing the book

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and then the film coming out? I wrote the book

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in 2007. It came out in 2009 and the film came

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out in 22. And so it's like 13 years. I was still

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lucky. You know, everybody's like, I bet you

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hate that you had to wait this long. And I'm

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like. If I was an 85 -year -old man and they

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made a film out of one of my books, I'd be thrilled.

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Yeah, it's a rare thing, right? For sure. Especially

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a big blockbuster film with Ryan Gosling. You're

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getting it. Gosling. There it is. There we go.

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Chris Evans is great in that, too. Yeah, he was

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terrific. Yeah, he really played an awesome version

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of the character you wrote in the book. Yeah,

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and that's an example of a difference in the

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film that I liked. Yes. in the book is not like

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a physical presence he's more of like the asshole

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master mastermind of the whole thing. Right.

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But I mean, obviously, if they can get Chris

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Evans in their film, they're going to beef up

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his role and make it a more mano a mano thing.

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And I thought that was fabulous. Yeah. And Chris

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Evans just really nailed it. He played the perfect

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douchebag, asshole, cocky, confident psychopath.

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Yeah. It looks like he was having fun. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. It was great. It was great. You've

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written a lot of books, man. And, you know, like

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you're super prolific with these books. It's

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very impressive. You're basically banging out

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one, what is it, every 10 or 11 months? Yeah,

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almost two a year, but not quite. So my first

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book came out in 2009, and Burner, my new one,

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is my 23rd book. 23 books in 12 years, something

00:11:40.409 --> 00:11:43.730
like that. That's incredible. It's because they've

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asked me to do it. And, you know, I have these

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opportunities. It took me 20 years to get published.

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And so I've been trying to catch up. I didn't

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get published until I was 42 years old. And so

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I'm desperately trying to, like, you know, make

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up for lost time, I guess. So what were you writing

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in all those years when you were a publisher?

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Were you just trying and just? Yeah, I mean.

00:12:03.419 --> 00:12:06.519
Honestly, I was lazy. I never believed anything

00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:08.879
could happen from it, but I like to write and

00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:11.179
I like to think about books and stuff. So I spent

00:12:11.179 --> 00:12:13.720
15 years writing my first novel. I started it

00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:16.700
literally in 1990 and finished it in 05. Wow.

00:12:16.779 --> 00:12:19.740
And never showed it to anybody. I mean, you know,

00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:22.480
like three friends probably read it. And I put

00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.679
that aside, and I wrote my second book in seven

00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:26.840
months because it's like there's something about

00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:29.320
– I always say everything in this world is cheapened

00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:32.620
by my ability to do it. It's like I always wanted

00:12:32.620 --> 00:12:34.980
to learn a foreign language, and I'm not super

00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:36.399
fluent in any foreign languages, but I speak

00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:38.539
some German and some Spanish. And it's like once

00:12:38.539 --> 00:12:41.750
I – Learn to do it. I'm like, oh, it's not that

00:12:41.750 --> 00:12:43.509
impressive because I can frickin do it, you know.

00:12:43.509 --> 00:12:45.529
Right. And writing a book was the same way for

00:12:45.529 --> 00:12:48.029
15 years. It was this big albatross, you know,

00:12:48.029 --> 00:12:51.289
just hanging on me. And I didn't know that I

00:12:51.289 --> 00:12:53.730
could ever do it. And and once I finished it,

00:12:53.769 --> 00:12:55.529
I was like, yeah, how hard did I really work?

00:12:55.629 --> 00:12:58.610
That was mostly talking about, you know, writing

00:12:58.610 --> 00:13:00.429
a book and not actually writing books. So then

00:13:00.429 --> 00:13:02.669
I went out and wrote a book. And Gray Man was

00:13:02.669 --> 00:13:06.149
actually my fourth completed novel. Really? So

00:13:06.149 --> 00:13:09.059
all those years of 15 years, it was you. just

00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:11.860
sort of not being fully committed to writing?

00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:15.460
Yes, that's it in a nutshell. 15 years for that

00:13:15.460 --> 00:13:17.820
first book. And then I got some momentum. Like

00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:20.360
once I finished it and I thought, hey, you know,

00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.179
the internet was invented while I was writing

00:13:23.179 --> 00:13:26.120
the damn thing. So I like looked up like, how

00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:27.440
do you get published? Because I never even looked

00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:29.720
at that, you know? Right. And then everything

00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:31.539
I'd done in the book was wrong as far as like,

00:13:31.539 --> 00:13:33.019
it was too big. There were too many characters.

00:13:33.100 --> 00:13:34.990
You know, there were just... things they'd recommend

00:13:34.990 --> 00:13:37.470
against. So I, um, you know, I tried to write

00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:40.870
something a little bit more mainstream and I

00:13:40.870 --> 00:13:43.330
got that in front of an agent and he said it

00:13:43.330 --> 00:13:45.129
wasn't mainstream enough, but I was a good writer.

00:13:45.190 --> 00:13:48.049
So keep trying. So it was this continually falling

00:13:48.049 --> 00:13:50.629
on my face, but falling forward, you know, and,

00:13:50.629 --> 00:13:53.629
and there was, I've had very few epiphanies in

00:13:53.629 --> 00:13:55.570
my life. I'm not one of those navel gazing people,

00:13:55.669 --> 00:13:59.250
but, but I had this epiphany one day that like,

00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:03.279
okay, nothing. I was in my late 30s. I was not

00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.039
successful in my job. I worked in a cubicle and

00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:07.919
I was destined to do that for the rest of my

00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.139
life. And I was frustrated about not going anywhere.

00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:15.139
And there was just this point where I said, I

00:14:15.139 --> 00:14:18.000
like to write. I like to, you know, walk down

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.600
the street and think about, you know, some espionage

00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:22.940
theme or something. And I like to do research

00:14:22.940 --> 00:14:25.559
and I like to type stuff out and fix it up. And

00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:27.340
it's like, OK, nothing's going to come of this.

00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:29.990
But. The thing that's going to come of this is

00:14:29.990 --> 00:14:32.629
you're doing something you enjoy to do. And honestly,

00:14:32.789 --> 00:14:34.330
that just let a lot of steam out of the kettle.

00:14:34.429 --> 00:14:37.570
And suddenly I wasn't like, I'm a 39 year old

00:14:37.570 --> 00:14:40.509
man who's, you know, has no success. And I just

00:14:40.509 --> 00:14:42.409
became this guy. It's like, oh, you know, I like

00:14:42.409 --> 00:14:43.970
writing books and I think each one's getting

00:14:43.970 --> 00:14:45.610
a little better and maybe something will happen

00:14:45.610 --> 00:14:48.789
someday. And really quickly I got, I mean, you

00:14:48.789 --> 00:14:50.990
know, within a couple of years I was published.

00:14:51.450 --> 00:14:55.409
That's amazing. So what was your job? I worked

00:14:55.409 --> 00:14:57.690
for a company called Medtronic. It was a medical

00:14:57.690 --> 00:15:01.899
device. company. And it wasn't a dead end job,

00:15:02.019 --> 00:15:03.919
but I was making it a dead end job just because

00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:05.779
it wasn't really where I wanted to be. I wanted

00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.139
to be a writer. And what were you doing for them?

00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.419
I worked in international customer care. So we

00:15:11.419 --> 00:15:13.799
had subsidiaries. It's a medical device company.

00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:16.379
We had subsidiaries in other countries. And I

00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:20.549
would sort of get the. the supplies to the subsidiaries

00:15:20.549 --> 00:15:22.710
and go to trade shows and that sort of thing.

00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:25.629
So, and so when you left that job, did you say,

00:15:25.690 --> 00:15:28.409
Hey guys, I'm a published author. Got to go.

00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:31.649
Yeah. So there's a story to that, that it's,

00:15:31.649 --> 00:15:35.809
it's my dad had passed away in 2005 and my dad.

00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:38.840
He had a kind of a white collar job. He ran the

00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.659
NBC affiliate in Memphis where I'm from. But

00:15:41.659 --> 00:15:43.379
he was a very blue collar mindset and you had

00:15:43.379 --> 00:15:45.360
to have a job. And there was no way my dad would

00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.279
have let me quit my job, even though my first

00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:51.720
book was just a paperback, mass market paperback.

00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:53.820
It wasn't a big release. It was Gray Man. It

00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:55.720
turned into something. But when it first came

00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:57.840
out, it was not a big deal other than the fact

00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.320
that Hollywood was interested. But I had this.

00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:04.460
You know, it wasn't quit your job money at all.

00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:06.379
And then they asked me to write two more books

00:16:06.379 --> 00:16:09.879
and make a series out of it, which I never even

00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:11.759
had considered. I was just trying to hold something

00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.639
in my hand with my name on it and a title and

00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.399
a cover. I wanted to be that level of a published

00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:20.059
author. I had no higher ambition. And they asked

00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:22.500
me to continue it as a series. And I said yes.

00:16:22.779 --> 00:16:25.860
And then I realized it's like, oh, my God, I've

00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:27.980
got to crank out three books in the next whatever

00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:30.440
number of months. It's like I have to quit my

00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.240
job. And it wasn't quit your job money, as I

00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:35.460
said. And this was before the Hollywood money

00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:38.980
came in. So I went to my boss. I'd been at the

00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:40.720
company for like nine and a half years. I went

00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:43.639
to my boss and I put my notice in on a Wednesday.

00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:47.360
And the next Monday, they brought everybody in

00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.320
to the auditorium for a meeting, you know, 800

00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:51.700
people there. And they're like, hey, listen,

00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:54.840
like sales are down or the economy, you know,

00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.259
since 2000. So, you know, the economy is not

00:16:58.259 --> 00:17:00.679
doing well or whatever. So we're offering voluntary

00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.460
separation. If you quit your job right now, we

00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:05.200
will give you a month's pay for every year you've

00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:07.099
worked here. We will give you insurance for a

00:17:07.099 --> 00:17:08.700
year. We will do this, this and this. I quit

00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:12.140
my job four days before. And so you think like,

00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.299
oh, my gosh, there's this black cloud over me.

00:17:14.339 --> 00:17:15.940
And I was scared about quitting my job, obviously.

00:17:16.019 --> 00:17:18.700
And I remember my boss came into my cubicle right

00:17:18.700 --> 00:17:20.099
afterwards. She's like, I'm going to talk to

00:17:20.099 --> 00:17:22.619
HR and see if they will. allow you to come in

00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:24.579
i'm like why the hell would they do that i'm

00:17:24.579 --> 00:17:26.380
like i'm the best thing that's happened to hr

00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:29.039
in a while you know this dummy quits three days

00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.200
before they offer you a ton of money to quit

00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:34.180
so so for about six months i just felt like i

00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:35.579
had this cloud over my head and i'd done the

00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:38.440
stupidest thing in the world and then the the

00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:40.640
film Film rights got optioned for Gray Man and

00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.599
it still wasn't quit your job money, but it was

00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:46.359
like I can eat for a year money. And, you know,

00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:47.759
within a couple of years I was working with Tom

00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:49.680
Clancy and things started to really go in the

00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.140
right direction. Wow. That's an amazing story,

00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.180
man. I love it. It could have gone either way.

00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.980
But isn't that like always how it works with

00:17:56.980 --> 00:17:59.000
some of the best stories? Yeah. They could have

00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.140
gone either way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a

00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:02.799
sad version of that story, too, and I'm lucky

00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.119
that I didn't have to experience it. That's my

00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:07.599
problem when people start talking about manifesting

00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.059
your reality and the secret and stuff like that.

00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:14.319
Talk to people that win, and they'll tell you

00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:16.059
that story, that I knew it was going to happen,

00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:18.319
I made it happen, I had a vision board. Talk

00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.799
to people that tried and failed and are homeless,

00:18:20.980 --> 00:18:24.039
and they have a different version of this manifesting

00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:25.859
reality story. And I've fallen on my face in

00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:29.680
so many ways in my life that, like, I recognize

00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.900
how lucky this is. And I would not, you know,

00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:33.920
grab some kid and go like, quit your job, be

00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:36.119
a writer. Man, it's going to, you know, just

00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:37.940
because it worked for me in that one instance

00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:40.200
doesn't mean it would, you know, work in any

00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.339
instance. Yeah, I think the best inspiration

00:18:42.339 --> 00:18:44.500
you could give to someone is just your own success.

00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:49.119
For you to tell people to do what you did, it's

00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:51.740
almost irresponsible. Right, right, right. Yeah.

00:18:51.819 --> 00:18:54.220
And I feel like everything I've learned. I've

00:18:54.220 --> 00:18:57.839
learned by doing it wrong a few times. I'm not

00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.640
like Yoda. I'm not this guy on a mountain telling

00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.019
them it's like, yeah, no, I've done a lot wrong.

00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:04.700
And what I might tell you could be totally wrong.

00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:07.200
But learning how to do stuff, that's a part of

00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:09.799
the process. You do stuff wrong. Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:11.480
You can't be scared to do things wrong. Right.

00:19:11.500 --> 00:19:14.700
You just self -correct and keep self -correcting.

00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:16.900
And hopefully something good happens before you

00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:20.119
die. Yeah, it's a tricky process and it doesn't

00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:22.500
always work out. But the problem is you're only

00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:24.279
hearing from the people. people where it does

00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.359
work out sure yeah you know when and some people

00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:31.619
look there's a hard reality about talent too

00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:33.980
like some people just don't have talent and some

00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:36.519
people just aren't good writers yeah there's

00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:38.740
a lot of people that go like you know if it's

00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:40.720
your dream never quit blah blah blah it's like

00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.900
i'd love to be a formula one driver i would not

00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:46.619
ever be a formula one driver you know it's like

00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:49.000
i think you sort of have to like play into your

00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:52.720
and obviously work hard and get better. But it's

00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:57.519
not just, you know, follow your wishes. It's

00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.079
a balance. Like everything in life is a balance.

00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:02.039
Yeah. It's not fair and it's very tricky. Yeah.

00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:03.980
And the idea that all you have to do is just

00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:07.200
like want it bad enough. Yeah. Yeah. And I used

00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.259
to sort of give advice to people. based on my

00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:14.220
own problems, you know, like earlier in my career.

00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:15.779
So like a young person will be like, what do

00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:18.359
I need to do? And I was like, I wish I believe

00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:21.559
in myself more because I was very half -assed

00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:23.299
about everything because it's like, I never thought

00:20:23.299 --> 00:20:24.779
anything would come from it, but I wanted to

00:20:24.779 --> 00:20:26.420
write a book. So I'd pick here and pick at it

00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:28.640
here and there. So I used to tell people, you

00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:30.039
know, believe in yourself, believe in yourself.

00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:32.799
And then you start learning a little more about

00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.319
these people. And it's like. Yeah. Self -confidence

00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:38.400
is not this person's problem. It's lack of talent.

00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:40.619
It's writing or it's editing or it's something

00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:42.980
like that. It's like they're very, very confident.

00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.579
So, you know, there's not one one size fits all

00:20:46.579 --> 00:20:48.740
for like helping people. Well, there's also confidence

00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:52.079
versus confidence that's based on an understanding

00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.450
of your competence. Yeah. And your work ethic

00:20:55.450 --> 00:20:59.369
and confidence that's built up over time with

00:20:59.369 --> 00:21:03.089
effort versus delusional confidence. Absolutely.

00:21:03.109 --> 00:21:07.009
And my work ethic came slowly, but by necessity.

00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:10.269
And it's good now. And, you know, I am a prolific

00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:11.890
writer. It has to be as much as you're writing

00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:13.890
these long -ass books. Yeah, although I don't

00:21:13.890 --> 00:21:18.029
do much else. Although I have a family now. But,

00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:22.250
yeah, it's... But there's so much that I've learned

00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:24.109
along the way that's made me a little bit more

00:21:24.109 --> 00:21:25.990
disciplined because it's like, OK, if I don't

00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:28.930
average 1 ,200 words a day or something, I'm

00:21:28.930 --> 00:21:30.769
going to be really far behind by July and the

00:21:30.769 --> 00:21:32.829
books due August 1st. So, you know, it's like

00:21:32.829 --> 00:21:36.769
I got to go bust it out. Yeah. The first time

00:21:36.769 --> 00:21:40.589
you gave someone one of your books to read, like,

00:21:40.650 --> 00:21:43.569
were they all like the gray man, like the early

00:21:43.569 --> 00:21:46.609
book? Yeah, always the same genre, different

00:21:46.609 --> 00:21:50.509
variations of the same genre. So is this something

00:21:50.509 --> 00:21:52.430
that you've been interested in in terms of the

00:21:52.430 --> 00:21:55.769
way you read? Yeah, 100%. I mean, I was just

00:21:55.769 --> 00:21:58.589
a reader. I don't have military experience. I'm

00:21:58.589 --> 00:22:01.069
not Jack Carr or Brad Taylor or any of these

00:22:01.069 --> 00:22:04.920
other guys. You know, I bartended till I was

00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.059
like 31 and I had other jobs, you know, like

00:22:07.059 --> 00:22:10.000
I always had a couple of jobs. I got my degree

00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.839
in international relations and political science,

00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.319
but didn't do anything with it for 20 something

00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:16.359
years, you know, other than 10 bar with it, I

00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:21.400
guess. Wow. So I read, but I read every espionage

00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.359
novel, military stuff, fiction. I actually tried

00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:26.980
to get in the Air Force at one point and didn't

00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:30.700
get in. was sort of fascinated by that world.

00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.420
And I'd read The Economist when I was 17 years

00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:35.480
old. I had a subscription to The Economist and

00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.680
U .S. News and World Report and would read all

00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:40.339
this. I was just interested in that, foreign

00:22:40.339 --> 00:22:45.160
policy and that sort of thing. So I loved it.

00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:48.019
And I loved thinking up, you know, kind of like

00:22:48.019 --> 00:22:50.960
wild, crazy stories and big action set pieces

00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:55.279
and geopolitical this and that. So Clancy, the

00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.380
first book I ever bought in my life was, or thriller

00:22:57.380 --> 00:22:59.359
I've ever bought was... Patriot Games, which

00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:02.079
was a Tom Clancy novel. I was like 19 years old.

00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:05.799
How wild is it for you now to be writing that?

00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:07.819
A quarter century later, he and I were, you know,

00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.680
I'm in his house, you know, sitting there in

00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.319
his office talking to him. Isn't that crazy?

00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:13.079
Yeah, yeah. It probably could have happened faster

00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:15.539
if I worked a little bit, if I worked harder.

00:23:15.700 --> 00:23:17.700
But maybe you wouldn't because I think some of

00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:20.140
what comes out in your writing is actual life

00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:21.960
experience. A hundred percent. You need some

00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:23.359
of that. A hundred percent. That's what I keep

00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:26.680
telling myself so I don't get depressed about

00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:28.579
not getting published at 25. Well, how can you

00:23:28.579 --> 00:23:31.980
get depressed? You're very successful now. It's

00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:34.400
funny how people are, right? Yeah, exactly. Always

00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.400
looking at the things that are wrong with what

00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.960
you've done. What could have been, but now it's

00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:40.579
worked out really well. It's really interesting

00:23:40.579 --> 00:23:44.559
to me because you seem to be a very mild -mannered

00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.440
sort of a guy, and you write for such a psychopath.

00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:53.130
Yeah. Do you know about Robert E. Howard? Robert

00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:55.109
E. Howard is the guy who wrote the Conan books.

00:23:55.349 --> 00:24:00.529
Oh, yeah. And he was kind of like a real quiet

00:24:00.529 --> 00:24:03.589
guy who lived with his mom and committed suicide

00:24:03.589 --> 00:24:08.049
in his early 30s. But he wrote the most savage

00:24:08.049 --> 00:24:13.440
fantasy novels about Conan the Barbarian. you

00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.759
know, all of them while he was this sort of quiet,

00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.279
soft -spoken guy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's

00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.539
not necessarily a correlation, you know, between

00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:25.839
one or the other. I know, you know, guys that

00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:28.440
were Delta Force, and they're as mild -mannered

00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.519
as possible. I mean, they weren't then, I'm sure,

00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:35.240
when they were downrange. But you just never

00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:37.680
know. And then as far as writers go, you know,

00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:43.440
there's guys that write pretty. accurate military

00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:46.650
or stuff like that. What's different about my

00:24:46.650 --> 00:24:48.430
character to some degree, I think, is, like,

00:24:48.430 --> 00:24:50.730
he's a very empathetic guy. I don't want to make

00:24:50.730 --> 00:24:53.130
him, like, this square -jawed, you know, like,

00:24:53.130 --> 00:24:55.250
total badass. He definitely has a screw loose.

00:24:55.369 --> 00:24:58.150
His moral compass, you know, doesn't point true

00:24:58.150 --> 00:25:01.109
north or whatever, but he wants to do the right

00:25:01.109 --> 00:25:03.769
thing at the end of the day. And he's empathetic

00:25:03.769 --> 00:25:07.049
and he's vulnerable in some ways that some of

00:25:07.049 --> 00:25:09.230
the other characters aren't. And I think that's

00:25:09.230 --> 00:25:12.309
helped the series over the years. Yeah, no, I

00:25:12.309 --> 00:25:15.529
think so, too. I mean, he's got a compass. and

00:25:15.529 --> 00:25:18.730
it's it's kind of a fucked up compass but yeah

00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:21.609
yeah yeah in one of the books uh i think it was

00:25:21.609 --> 00:25:25.109
uh gunmetal gray it was the sixth book i i remember

00:25:25.109 --> 00:25:27.769
near the end i was like I'm going to have him

00:25:27.769 --> 00:25:30.029
do something that makes sense to him. But it's

00:25:30.029 --> 00:25:32.450
actually the readers. It's not what the readers

00:25:32.450 --> 00:25:35.190
are going to want him to do. And and that had

00:25:35.190 --> 00:25:37.170
never come up before. And I was like, OK, this

00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:39.710
like if I'm reading this book, I'm going like,

00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:41.829
don't be an idiot. Don't you know, don't do it

00:25:41.829 --> 00:25:44.329
that way. Don't do you know, it's basically the

00:25:44.329 --> 00:25:46.309
outcome of the story, what he was going to do

00:25:46.309 --> 00:25:49.069
with this this guy that he rescued. And I was

00:25:49.069 --> 00:25:52.049
like, but it makes sense to him. So am I OK with

00:25:52.049 --> 00:25:54.680
having a bunch of. readers mad at me and i'm

00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:56.700
like you kind of have to go with your gut and

00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:58.619
i was and i said all right i'm gonna have him

00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:01.099
do what what makes sense in the story for the

00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:03.339
this character the way that i built him up over

00:26:03.339 --> 00:26:05.859
six books and um and i never really got much

00:26:05.859 --> 00:26:08.359
negative pushback from that at all so i guess

00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:09.940
i guess that was the right decision no i like

00:26:09.940 --> 00:26:13.640
that one yeah it's it's just it's always interesting

00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.920
when you're reading is so fascinating to me reading

00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:21.059
fiction because Someone is creating this world

00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:24.200
and you're trusting them with all these people

00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:29.779
in this world for it to not mess with your –

00:26:29.779 --> 00:26:33.480
it doesn't – you know, there's a suspension of

00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:36.140
disbelief that's involved in any, you know, reading

00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:38.539
literature or watching a movie or anything like

00:26:38.539 --> 00:26:41.730
that. And you just don't want – to mess with

00:26:41.730 --> 00:26:43.849
it to the point where someone's reading it going,

00:26:43.990 --> 00:26:47.650
ah, come on. You don't want an ah, come on moment.

00:26:47.849 --> 00:26:50.750
And you do a great job of avoiding ah, come on

00:26:50.750 --> 00:26:53.390
moments while you're navigating this impossible

00:26:53.390 --> 00:26:56.609
world of this elite assassin who somehow or another

00:26:56.609 --> 00:27:00.029
never gets killed. Yeah. Thanks for saying that.

00:27:00.089 --> 00:27:01.490
And I really know where that came from. It came

00:27:01.490 --> 00:27:03.869
from a very specific place. So I had an agent

00:27:03.869 --> 00:27:07.250
interested in me. He turned me down on a couple

00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:09.089
books, but he kept saying, you know, you're good.

00:27:09.190 --> 00:27:12.279
Write me something else. And I wrote the opening

00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:17.279
for The Gray Man, and it's a sniper thing, and

00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.160
an American helicopter gets shot down, and this

00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:22.500
guy that has nothing to do with the operation

00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:25.259
with the American soldiers is just trying to

00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:26.940
get out of the kill zone where he's killed somebody,

00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.700
and he takes a sniper shot and kills some of

00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:31.759
the people that killed the Americans. And so

00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.160
I gave that agent. the first 50 pages of the

00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:36.740
book. I'm still an unpublished author. I'm like,

00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:38.599
will you tell me what you think? He's like, uh,

00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:40.940
yeah, it's great. The shooting those guys from

00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:43.000
my way. That's really bad -ass, but he needs

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:45.779
to save somebody. And I'm like, wait, how's he

00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.400
going to save somebody? He's a mile away. And

00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:50.200
it's like Al Qaeda, you know, since 2007. And,

00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:51.859
um, and he's like, I don't know. I'm not the

00:27:51.859 --> 00:27:54.740
writer, but he needs to save somebody. So I went

00:27:54.740 --> 00:27:56.619
back into the story and I was like, well, shit,

00:27:56.819 --> 00:27:58.440
that doesn't really, you know, that that's so

00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:00.440
implausible. But then I'm like, all right, I

00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:04.420
guess it's my job to sell that. And, The whole

00:28:04.420 --> 00:28:07.960
series was informed by that early thing, because

00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.839
what I do is I create pretty outlandish things

00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:14.240
and then work my ass off to to sell them to the

00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:16.880
reader, you know, put in put in the real world

00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:20.119
stuff, the geopolitical stuff, put in all these,

00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:24.380
you know, explain the hows and the whys to the

00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:28.049
best of you can. And then at some point. You

00:28:28.049 --> 00:28:30.109
know, the bad guys have to miss their shots a

00:28:30.109 --> 00:28:31.589
lot more than the good guys miss their shots.

00:28:31.710 --> 00:28:36.950
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's it is. It's fanciful.

00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:38.690
Some people call it gun porn, but at the same

00:28:38.690 --> 00:28:42.450
time. Yeah, that's what they call it. But but

00:28:42.450 --> 00:28:44.250
at the same time, you know, there's there's like

00:28:44.250 --> 00:28:46.029
a heart to the story and all that. And I'm trying

00:28:46.029 --> 00:28:48.390
to, like, pull the pull the reader into where

00:28:48.390 --> 00:28:51.650
they don't go. This is just way too out of left

00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:55.240
field. What is your writing process like? Do

00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.539
you have ideas before you sit down and write

00:28:58.539 --> 00:29:00.700
them? Do you have little notes of maybe that

00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:03.180
would be fun or maybe he could do this and then

00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:05.259
sit down and try to piece them all together?

00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:09.059
How do you do it? Yeah, I write sort of by the

00:29:09.059 --> 00:29:11.079
seat of my pants, but I do come up with some

00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:13.940
little, even if it's three pages of what the

00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:16.279
story is about. This book is about artificial

00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:19.380
intelligence and robotics and the bad guy wants

00:29:19.380 --> 00:29:23.119
to... destroy america or whatever and then you

00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.079
flesh that out a little more and a little more

00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:27.339
and then at some point and this is what i always

00:29:27.339 --> 00:29:29.940
recommend to writers is just sit down and start

00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:33.339
writing and you'll figure what your story's about

00:29:33.339 --> 00:29:36.079
and if you if you don't have any blueprint then

00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:38.599
i think you're going to get yourself in trouble

00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:40.720
but i mean everybody's different i know some

00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:43.200
authors that they have every chapter completely

00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:45.519
plotted out and everything. And then they just

00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:47.200
go and write a chapter a day because they've

00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:50.299
spent months plotting it out. And I kind of have

00:29:50.299 --> 00:29:52.880
to find the story in the story. So I'm writing

00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:55.880
and, you know, the dialogue, two characters talking

00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:57.599
to each other. And I'm like, well, there's no

00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:59.359
tension here. I have to create some tension.

00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:01.460
And you come up with some reason there's tension

00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:03.200
between these two people. And then that informs

00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:05.700
another part of the story. And then sooner or

00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:08.759
later, you've got a book. Every book, I'm not

00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.799
a super confident writer. So every book, you

00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:13.509
know, Spring, early summer is the biggest piece

00:30:13.509 --> 00:30:15.890
of crap in the world. And then somehow by August,

00:30:16.009 --> 00:30:18.650
I get it turned in and edited by October. And

00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:20.549
I'm happy with it. I'm proud of it. My friend

00:30:20.549 --> 00:30:23.309
Ari has a little piece of paper on his laptop.

00:30:23.809 --> 00:30:26.650
It's a quote by Ernest Hemingway. It says, every

00:30:26.650 --> 00:30:31.309
first draft is shit. Yeah. I have said, that's

00:30:31.309 --> 00:30:34.670
good. I've said, if I died when one of my books

00:30:34.670 --> 00:30:38.509
is like 98 % done, it's unusable. They wouldn't

00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:39.630
be able to fix it. I don't know if that's true

00:30:39.630 --> 00:30:41.970
or not. As the writer, you know where all the

00:30:41.970 --> 00:30:44.490
bodies are buried in a 160 ,000 -word book. And

00:30:44.490 --> 00:30:46.089
it's like, oh, that doesn't make sense. And this

00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:48.450
connection here isn't there. And so it kind of

00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:51.589
weighs on you until you get everything cleaned

00:30:51.589 --> 00:30:54.410
up to the best you can. Yeah, Stephen King said

00:30:54.410 --> 00:30:56.309
that he doesn't really have an outline. Yeah,

00:30:56.309 --> 00:30:58.170
I believe it. He just sits down and starts writing.

00:30:58.250 --> 00:31:02.569
Yeah, he's amazing. He is just another species.

00:31:02.890 --> 00:31:05.150
Yeah. I'm so impressed with that guy. Well, certainly

00:31:05.150 --> 00:31:07.690
in the early days of his career, right? The early

00:31:07.690 --> 00:31:11.000
days of his career, to me— It's the most interesting.

00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:13.000
And this is not to disparage people that are

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.660
clean and sober. It's not to disparage the idea

00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:17.740
of getting clean and sober. You definitely should

00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:19.900
do that. Your health is more important than anything.

00:31:20.059 --> 00:31:23.279
But when that guy was fucked up, he was writing

00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:27.099
some amazing shit. Yeah, yeah. he didn't create

00:31:27.099 --> 00:31:29.460
a genre but he created a genre basically yeah

00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:32.220
you know it's like i did and he did the output

00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:34.859
was so much but even in his later years i don't

00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:37.920
know if you've ever read 11 22 63 no oh my god

00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.599
it's a magnificent book it's really yeah it's

00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:43.319
about a high school teacher who goes back in

00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:47.720
time to stop the kennedy assassination but you

00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:50.980
know Chaos ensues. It's a Stephen King novel,

00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:53.000
so you can imagine. And it's probably 700 or

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:55.740
800 pages. Really? It's really fascinating. It's

00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:58.140
a recent book. Yeah, it's been like eight or

00:31:58.140 --> 00:32:00.599
nine years. They actually made a TV series, I

00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:03.079
think on Hulu, with James Franco. Really? Which

00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:06.160
was actually really good. But, yeah, that book

00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.880
is fabulous. The series is good, too. No, I mean,

00:32:08.900 --> 00:32:11.920
some of his early stuff, like The Shining or

00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:16.759
Cujo or Pet Sematary or The Tommy Knockers. Yeah,

00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:20.279
yeah. Like, my God. Yeah. I remember getting

00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.480
late to the theater for Pet Sematary and sitting

00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:25.380
in the front row and just regretting that decision.

00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:29.279
It was, like, so intense. But, yeah, Cujo and

00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:31.579
Carrie. He said he doesn't even remember writing

00:32:31.579 --> 00:32:34.380
Cujo. Because it was so fucked up. Was it cocaine?

00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:39.200
booze yeah just getting lit his his book on writing

00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:42.559
is is really inspirational yeah because he he

00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:44.339
didn't have instant success even though he got

00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:46.140
published when he was really young he's trying

00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:47.900
really hard for a long time and then you know

00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:50.180
he had to feed a family and all that stuff too

00:32:50.180 --> 00:32:52.519
so yeah the story about when he got the first

00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:55.140
check like how crazy that was yeah yeah he realized

00:32:55.140 --> 00:32:58.140
oh my god yeah i have uh incredible respect for

00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:00.420
him because you know a lot of authors um have

00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:02.900
co -authors and whatever as they get older and

00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:05.619
um You know, it's just harder to come up with

00:33:05.619 --> 00:33:07.539
new stuff, something you haven't done before.

00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.980
Well, as you get older, too, you lose your juice.

00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.259
Yeah. You know, you lose your physical juice.

00:33:12.339 --> 00:33:15.279
You lose your vitality. You lose your energy.

00:33:15.579 --> 00:33:20.579
Sadly. Yeah, sadly. My concentration levels at

00:33:20.579 --> 00:33:23.319
this point in my life is not what it was 15 years

00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:25.880
ago when the only thing competing with me writing

00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:27.960
my book was my Xbox, you know, when I was off

00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:30.819
work or whatever. And, you know, now it's kids

00:33:30.819 --> 00:33:34.319
and dogs and, you know, travel. you know other

00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.259
obligations and so when I do have like a three

00:33:37.259 --> 00:33:39.970
-hour pocket of time to write it's real easy

00:33:39.970 --> 00:33:41.990
to kind of lose focus. And I'm like, wow, I remember

00:33:41.990 --> 00:33:44.190
going to Starbucks at 8 .30 in the morning on

00:33:44.190 --> 00:33:46.410
a Saturday and staying until 9 at night. And

00:33:46.410 --> 00:33:48.390
it's like, I can't do that anymore. I wish I

00:33:48.390 --> 00:33:49.690
could. If I did that for a couple of weeks, I'd

00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:52.369
have a book now. Yeah, you just don't really

00:33:52.369 --> 00:33:54.210
have that. My friend Steve Rinella talks about

00:33:54.210 --> 00:33:56.490
this as well. He was at the peak of his writing

00:33:56.490 --> 00:33:58.710
when he was a single man before he had a family.

00:33:59.009 --> 00:34:01.029
When he was alone, he could do whatever he wanted

00:34:01.029 --> 00:34:04.210
to. He could just literally sit in front of a

00:34:04.210 --> 00:34:06.609
computer for 16 hours in a day and just drink

00:34:06.609 --> 00:34:09.280
coffee and just get it done. Yeah, I mean, that

00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:11.500
was me. You know, I lived alone. I didn't get,

00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:14.400
I've been married on my second marriage, but

00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:15.760
I didn't get married the first time until I was

00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.860
47. So, you know, I was in my, I was published.

00:34:21.009 --> 00:34:23.530
several books out before I got married. So the

00:34:23.530 --> 00:34:25.670
first marriage, you were 47? Yeah, yeah. You

00:34:25.670 --> 00:34:28.590
look like you're 45 now. How long ago was this?

00:34:29.469 --> 00:34:32.269
How old are you? I'll be 56 in July. Really?

00:34:32.409 --> 00:34:34.489
You look fucking great, man. Thanks, man. I appreciate

00:34:34.489 --> 00:34:36.789
that. How do you look so young? What are you

00:34:36.789 --> 00:34:38.570
doing? It's probably because I didn't have kids

00:34:38.570 --> 00:34:40.829
in my life until about two years ago. I have

00:34:40.829 --> 00:34:44.730
three wonderful stepkids. What am I doing? I

00:34:44.730 --> 00:34:46.690
don't know. I mean, I think a lot of it's genetic.

00:34:46.789 --> 00:34:53.110
I mean, I exercise. I don't do dairy or gluten,

00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:56.929
but that's pretty recent. Well, whatever it is,

00:34:57.030 --> 00:34:58.929
you're on to a good thing, or you've got great

00:34:58.929 --> 00:35:02.230
genes. So what is your process like? Do you have

00:35:02.230 --> 00:35:04.929
a daily routine where you start every day? Do

00:35:04.929 --> 00:35:08.510
you go for walks before you write? I know a lot

00:35:08.510 --> 00:35:10.969
of people do things like that to charge the brain

00:35:10.969 --> 00:35:15.210
up. Yeah, I like to start writing as soon as

00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:17.309
I possibly can when I wake up, which used to

00:35:17.309 --> 00:35:21.460
be 5 in the morning. first book you know when

00:35:21.460 --> 00:35:23.159
i when i had a full -time job and i wrote it

00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.119
between like 5 30 and 7 30 at starbucks over

00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.300
a six month period. Now, you know, there might

00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:31.119
be carpool or something else where I don't get

00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:33.800
started, but I have a detached, we have like

00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.579
a pool house. That's my office and my house.

00:35:36.619 --> 00:35:39.300
And so it's 30 steps out my back door and it's

00:35:39.300 --> 00:35:40.699
a completely different experience. It's just

00:35:40.699 --> 00:35:42.719
like being in, you know, it's like being somewhere

00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:45.500
else and nobody bugs me or whatever. And so I

00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:47.800
like to get in there as, as quickly as possible,

00:35:47.900 --> 00:35:50.719
look at as few emails as possible. I mean, you've

00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:53.139
kind of look and see if things are. You know,

00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:55.159
there's chaos that you need to attend to, but

00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:58.079
if there's not and I like to start writing and

00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.800
I will write in the mornings. It's only when

00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:04.219
I'm like way on deadline and I'm going to be

00:36:04.219 --> 00:36:06.880
overdue where I will write in the afternoons,

00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:11.119
too. So I try to write. seven or eight till noon

00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:13.019
or something like that. And then that's done.

00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:15.079
I'm done with my writing for the day. I'll do

00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.260
other stuff. I'll take the dogs to the park.

00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:18.900
And I think about the books when I'm doing that.

00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.619
And I'm always jotting stuff down and files for

00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:25.639
the book. So, you know, there's a lot of, you

00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:27.639
ask anybody in my family, there's times where

00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:29.440
I'm just sort of not a hundred percent there

00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.940
at the dinner table for a minute, because I'm

00:36:31.940 --> 00:36:33.559
thinking about, well, wait, what if, what if

00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:36.980
that all happened in Singapore? You know? So

00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:40.119
my brain, resides there even when i'm not working

00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:43.599
but i i try and like right now my writing goal

00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.880
is 1500 words a day um didn't hit it today yet

00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:51.639
um but that's gonna get me a book by the summer

00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:53.940
and i have two books to write this year so then

00:36:53.940 --> 00:36:56.780
the next book Should be done by December. And

00:36:56.780 --> 00:37:01.340
that's hopefully that works. And so a lot of

00:37:01.340 --> 00:37:03.019
guys do that same thing that you're talking about.

00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.500
Like there's a process after you're done writing

00:37:05.500 --> 00:37:07.300
where you're thinking about the writing of the

00:37:07.300 --> 00:37:09.880
day and then you just sort of jot stuff down.

00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:11.800
Yeah. And a lot of guys like to, like I said,

00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:14.639
go for walks or you like to take the dogs to

00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:17.179
the park. Yeah. We have a big hundred acre off

00:37:17.179 --> 00:37:19.699
leash dog park where I live a few minutes from

00:37:19.699 --> 00:37:23.320
my house. And those 40 minutes or so where I've

00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:27.219
got the dogs out there. If I'm by myself, I will

00:37:27.219 --> 00:37:32.280
usually be like really focused on the book or

00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.360
doing some sort of like audio book research for

00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.380
the book or something like that. Yeah. And then

00:37:37.380 --> 00:37:39.320
you're always thinking of the next book you have

00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:40.679
to write. So I have another book to write this

00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:42.980
year. And so I'm trying to plot that out just

00:37:42.980 --> 00:37:44.880
in my head for now, not write anything down.

00:37:46.269 --> 00:37:48.329
In the downtime when I'm not thinking about the

00:37:48.329 --> 00:37:49.929
book that I'm writing now. Do you drink coffee?

00:37:50.230 --> 00:37:52.789
I drink a lot of coffee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That

00:37:52.789 --> 00:37:55.230
helps. I had a buddy of mine who started snorting

00:37:55.230 --> 00:37:57.710
Adderall to write, and his wife was like, what

00:37:57.710 --> 00:37:59.510
the fuck are you doing? Does it work? He's like,

00:37:59.570 --> 00:38:01.050
I got to get this done. Look at me. I'm like,

00:38:01.110 --> 00:38:03.469
does it work? Apparently it does. I don't know,

00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:05.590
but his wife had a real problem with it. Yeah,

00:38:05.670 --> 00:38:08.610
I guess. It was the snorting, I think. He just

00:38:08.610 --> 00:38:10.670
took the Adderall, but he's like, I want it to

00:38:10.670 --> 00:38:13.949
work quick. Yeah, I've tried Adderall because...

00:38:14.349 --> 00:38:16.130
Some people told me it was, you know, I got a

00:38:16.130 --> 00:38:19.110
prescription for it. And it just made me feel

00:38:19.110 --> 00:38:23.050
kind of wacky. And I remember one time I took

00:38:23.050 --> 00:38:24.769
Adderall. I'm like, yeah, I was really focused.

00:38:24.869 --> 00:38:29.219
I took all of my fire logs. off the fire log

00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:31.659
holder and swept that thing up and put all the

00:38:31.659 --> 00:38:33.260
fire logs back. It's like, meanwhile, I've got

00:38:33.260 --> 00:38:35.380
to write a book. Yeah, people say it makes you

00:38:35.380 --> 00:38:37.599
clean. Yeah, it makes you want to clean things.

00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.119
That's what it made me do. And so it was not,

00:38:40.179 --> 00:38:42.360
I'm always looking for something, you know, like

00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:45.179
B vitamins. I've tried that. And, you know, I'm

00:38:45.179 --> 00:38:47.039
always trying to, something that'll kind of keep

00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:49.059
me in the game a little bit more. You ever try

00:38:49.059 --> 00:38:53.469
marijuana? No, no. No, it might help your creativity.

00:38:53.630 --> 00:38:55.809
Really? Yeah, oh, it puts you in a wild state

00:38:55.809 --> 00:38:57.869
of mind. Yeah, but for this kind of book, the

00:38:57.869 --> 00:39:00.050
only time I've ever really had it, this is kind

00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:01.110
of embarrassing, I don't know why I'm saying

00:39:01.110 --> 00:39:03.429
this in front of so many people, was when it

00:39:03.429 --> 00:39:06.219
was like... Put in like lime squares and nobody

00:39:06.219 --> 00:39:09.280
told me. Oh, no. I ate like half a tray of lime

00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.719
squares. I had the paranoia thing, like an absolute

00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:14.460
freak out paranoia. You don't want that. I didn't

00:39:14.460 --> 00:39:16.340
want that. First of all, that's a different drug.

00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.340
When you're eating it, it's very different than

00:39:18.340 --> 00:39:20.280
when you're smoking. When you're eating it, your

00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:23.059
body produces something called 11 -hydroxy metabolite.

00:39:23.139 --> 00:39:26.480
It's like five times more psychoactive than THC.

00:39:26.699 --> 00:39:28.860
So it's processed by your liver. It's called

00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:31.679
a one pass. And when that happens, you trip balls.

00:39:31.940 --> 00:39:34.130
Yeah. Like that's why when people eat. eat edibles,

00:39:34.170 --> 00:39:37.210
they're like, I think it's laced. That's why

00:39:37.210 --> 00:39:39.130
they think that. It's because it's a completely

00:39:39.130 --> 00:39:41.690
different drug than smoking it. When you're smoking

00:39:41.690 --> 00:39:45.289
it, you're getting THC. But when you're eating

00:39:45.289 --> 00:39:49.150
it, like the 11 -hydroxy metabolite, you don't

00:39:49.150 --> 00:39:51.860
get it from smoking it. So it's a totally different

00:39:51.860 --> 00:39:53.719
experience. That's wild. Yeah, that was my only

00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:55.440
experience. That's not a good experience. It

00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:56.699
wasn't a good one. I was down in Florida at the

00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:58.860
time, and I'd gotten jellyfish that day, like

00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:02.880
in the leg, and went back to the room and ate

00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:04.519
all these lime squares that somebody else had

00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:07.820
made. And then I was like, oh, my God, I'm going

00:40:07.820 --> 00:40:09.440
to die from a jellyfish sting because I felt

00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:13.460
like I was dying. All night. I mean, it lasted

00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:16.000
like hours and hours and hours. Can jellyfish

00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.079
kill you in America? Do we have jellyfish that

00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:19.980
can kill you? I don't think so. But I wasn't

00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:22.659
working on good information at the time. I know

00:40:22.659 --> 00:40:24.760
when I was in Australia, they'll warn you. They're

00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:26.940
like, that box jellyfish will fucking kill you.

00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.079
I bet there are. There's those blue bottles in

00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:31.949
Hawaii. They won't kill you, but it's so... They

00:40:31.949 --> 00:40:34.110
have this string that's like five or six feet

00:40:34.110 --> 00:40:36.289
long. And I was in Hawaii, and I had one wrapped

00:40:36.289 --> 00:40:39.110
around my leg and my arm. And it hurt so bad.

00:40:39.449 --> 00:40:41.389
Yeah, my daughter, when she was really young,

00:40:41.449 --> 00:40:44.510
got stung in Costa Rica. We were swimming in

00:40:44.510 --> 00:40:46.449
Costa Rica, and she got. What do we got here?

00:40:46.610 --> 00:40:48.590
Box jellyfish can kill a person within minutes.

00:40:48.769 --> 00:40:50.230
Yes, but I don't think they're in the United

00:40:50.230 --> 00:40:53.349
States, are they? It says Florida. Some jellyfish

00:40:53.349 --> 00:40:56.289
from Florida. No shit. Wow. Florida has several

00:40:56.289 --> 00:40:58.469
species, including those pictures that stink.

00:40:58.889 --> 00:41:02.099
Yeah, but. Breathing difficulties, shock, and

00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:05.219
even death. Oh, jellyfish in Florida can kill

00:41:05.219 --> 00:41:06.940
you. I need to use that in the book. So maybe

00:41:06.940 --> 00:41:09.679
you were almost dying. Maybe it wasn't the lime

00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:12.119
squares. Really? Like it was probably the lime

00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.219
squares and the poison that was in your system.

00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:17.059
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know that Florida jellyfish

00:41:17.059 --> 00:41:20.300
can kill. How many people die? Let's Google how

00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:23.280
many people die a year from jellyfish in Florida.

00:41:24.059 --> 00:41:25.920
It's probably only Florida, right? You're going

00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:32.219
to ruin my family vacation. I'm going to guess

00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:36.320
three. Three people a year. I've got to get Florida.

00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:38.860
It's not showing Florida. Three people die from

00:41:38.860 --> 00:41:39.780
jellyfish in the United States. I think it's

00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:43.699
100 overall. In the country? I don't even know

00:41:43.699 --> 00:41:46.980
if it's the country. 100 people overall die from

00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:49.989
jellyfish? Yeah, I don't think it's that common.

00:41:50.269 --> 00:41:52.670
That's more than sharks, you know. Right. My

00:41:52.670 --> 00:41:55.650
wife is totally, I scuba dive, and I got two

00:41:55.650 --> 00:41:59.170
of my kids certified, and my wife is deathly

00:41:59.170 --> 00:42:00.710
afraid of sharks. I'm like, I swim with sharks

00:42:00.710 --> 00:42:03.070
all the time. I mean, there's certain sharks

00:42:03.070 --> 00:42:05.929
that if it appeared next to me, I'd... Crapped

00:42:05.929 --> 00:42:09.769
my pants. My buddy Duncan was in Hawaii, and

00:42:09.769 --> 00:42:12.789
the week he was there, a woman got killed by

00:42:12.789 --> 00:42:14.130
a shark. Yeah, this year. Yeah, right? Yeah.

00:42:14.670 --> 00:42:17.130
Yeah, the guy and his wife were scuba diving,

00:42:17.309 --> 00:42:20.210
and apparently a guy pops up for air. They were

00:42:20.210 --> 00:42:22.110
snorkeling. A guy pops up for air, and they're

00:42:22.110 --> 00:42:23.530
yelling, get out of the water, get out of the

00:42:23.530 --> 00:42:25.190
water. So he runs to get out of the water, and

00:42:25.190 --> 00:42:27.809
then realizes it was his wife. Oh, my God. Yeah,

00:42:27.909 --> 00:42:30.309
and looks back, and apparently they saw just

00:42:30.309 --> 00:42:33.550
blood in the water and thrashing, and they never

00:42:33.550 --> 00:42:36.230
found her body. No body. Yeah, they found part

00:42:36.230 --> 00:42:38.429
of her bathing suit or something, I think. It's

00:42:38.429 --> 00:42:41.929
horrible. But it's so rare, you know. Fuck rare.

00:42:42.130 --> 00:42:45.269
If you found out that there were werewolves,

00:42:45.289 --> 00:42:47.449
that werewolves were real, would you ever go

00:42:47.449 --> 00:42:49.489
in the woods at night, even when it wasn't a

00:42:49.489 --> 00:42:52.050
full moon? You'd be like, fuck that. But meanwhile,

00:42:52.150 --> 00:42:53.869
sharks are real, and everybody's like, whoa,

00:42:54.050 --> 00:42:56.610
it's so rare. Yeah, well, I mean, a dog can kill

00:42:56.610 --> 00:42:58.610
you, but I'm not afraid of dogs. I don't know.

00:42:59.050 --> 00:43:01.849
That's true. I haven't seen the right shark,

00:43:01.969 --> 00:43:03.590
maybe. You know, I've been around a bunch of...

00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:08.280
You know, like reef sharks and mostly stuff like

00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:10.760
that. I feel like you can give a dog your arm

00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:13.599
and then cut its neck. You could kill a dog.

00:43:13.780 --> 00:43:16.159
Yeah, yeah. You know, you'll get fucked up, but

00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:17.900
you can kill a dog. Yeah, shark, you're on their

00:43:17.900 --> 00:43:20.880
territory. So you are limited. My dog's got a

00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:23.380
collar. I'm going to strangle him. Yeah. But

00:43:23.380 --> 00:43:26.800
if it's a... Shark, you can't even move good.

00:43:27.019 --> 00:43:32.079
Yeah. First time I went diving on an actual shark

00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:34.760
feed and I was, I'd only had 15 dives or whatever.

00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:36.320
Everybody else was a lot more experienced than

00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.719
me that I was just on a dive boat with. And right

00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.559
before that, they were like, okay, you know,

00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:42.679
sharks are fine. Just don't provoke them. I'm

00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:44.480
like, cool. I jump in the water and you're down

00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.199
underwater where you can't talk to anybody and

00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:48.159
ask any questions. And I was like, I should have

00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.500
asked if eye contact was a provocation. It's

00:43:51.500 --> 00:43:53.800
like, I wish I could get back up there and ask

00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:55.579
that. question but i was not making eye contact

00:43:55.579 --> 00:43:57.780
i think sharks are so simple -minded i don't

00:43:57.780 --> 00:43:59.500
even think they understand what eye contact is

00:43:59.500 --> 00:44:02.599
i think they're just like they're zombies man

00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:05.940
yeah they scare the out of me yeah Because they're

00:44:05.940 --> 00:44:07.940
just feeding machines. That's all they're doing

00:44:07.940 --> 00:44:10.000
is just the cleanup crew of the ocean. Anything

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.079
weak, anything that's fucked up, anything that's

00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:15.539
slipping, time to go. Anything that dies. You're

00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:16.780
down there at one of those shark feeds where

00:44:16.780 --> 00:44:19.239
they have all this chum and a big ball and, like,

00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:22.239
hundreds of sharks. And there's times where,

00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:24.119
like, they're above you and there's the boat

00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:25.920
and then there's, like, 50 sharks and you're

00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:27.500
kind of down at the ocean floor going, like,

00:44:27.500 --> 00:44:30.400
I'll wait for them to, you know, move on. We

00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.239
played a video the other day, Jamie pulled up,

00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:35.710
of this guy that's in one of those shark... Yeah.

00:44:35.829 --> 00:44:38.210
And this great white just bursts through the

00:44:38.210 --> 00:44:40.449
bottom of it. Hangs through it. Literally almost

00:44:40.449 --> 00:44:43.590
takes his leg off. Yeah. I have no plans to dive

00:44:43.590 --> 00:44:46.150
in South Africa or wherever those things. Those

00:44:46.150 --> 00:44:48.429
people are crazy. Those are some big, big sharks.

00:44:48.429 --> 00:44:52.170
I know you like thrills, but please. One of the

00:44:52.170 --> 00:44:53.409
cool things about sharks, though, is you get

00:44:53.409 --> 00:44:55.510
your picture in the water with a shark, and you

00:44:55.510 --> 00:44:57.170
can't tell if the shark, if it's behind you,

00:44:57.210 --> 00:44:58.730
you can't tell if it's three feet long. Right.

00:44:58.750 --> 00:45:01.409
It still looks like, you know, this big, massive

00:45:01.409 --> 00:45:03.010
thing. Yeah. It could be a three -foot -long

00:45:03.010 --> 00:45:05.579
shark. It's like, Jesus. Yeah. Mark's so brave.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.940
Exactly. So do you do anything else that's like

00:45:09.940 --> 00:45:16.320
kind of psycho like that? No. I train with firearms

00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.840
a lot. Have you always done that? No. That was

00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:24.079
really to get involved with the writing. Yeah,

00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:27.019
to learn about the writing. And I started training

00:45:27.019 --> 00:45:29.800
probably in 2000. five, four, five, something

00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.440
like that. Where do you train? Do you train at

00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:33.739
like a tactical place? Yeah, it's been at different

00:45:33.739 --> 00:45:36.059
places, but I've done most of my training at

00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:38.280
a place in middle Tennessee called Tactical Response.

00:45:38.619 --> 00:45:41.340
And, you know, back at that point, they were

00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:43.400
training a lot of civilian contractors. And so

00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:46.840
I took a, you know, you take pistol and advanced

00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:50.260
pistol and rifle and advanced rifle and this

00:45:50.260 --> 00:45:52.440
and that. And then there's these things called

00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.590
like, you know. HRCC high risk civilian contractor

00:45:55.590 --> 00:45:58.250
classes. And I took a bunch of those and they're

00:45:58.250 --> 00:45:59.949
like a week long and you stay in the bunkhouse

00:45:59.949 --> 00:46:01.650
or the team rooms with the guys. And I, and I

00:46:01.650 --> 00:46:03.889
learned really quick that like, it's cool to

00:46:03.889 --> 00:46:05.750
learn about the guns and the gear and stuff for

00:46:05.750 --> 00:46:08.429
your books, but it's so much more impactful to

00:46:08.429 --> 00:46:11.130
sit there in the team room and drink scotch with,

00:46:11.210 --> 00:46:14.329
you know, SWAT guys or fifth special forces group

00:46:14.329 --> 00:46:16.670
dude or, or whatever, you know, it's just like,

00:46:16.670 --> 00:46:18.829
he's been there, done that, that guy's contractors,

00:46:19.110 --> 00:46:22.849
Blackwater guys, um, back then. And, uh, and

00:46:22.849 --> 00:46:26.050
so, I feel like I kind of became a mascot of

00:46:26.050 --> 00:46:28.590
that school. I probably took 50 classes. I probably

00:46:28.590 --> 00:46:32.949
spent close to a couple hundred days there in

00:46:32.949 --> 00:46:35.050
Tennessee. And I've done some other training.

00:46:36.110 --> 00:46:38.289
I own a bunch of the firearms that are in the

00:46:38.289 --> 00:46:43.630
books and like to train when I can. It's less

00:46:43.630 --> 00:46:47.210
and less as you get older and busier and more

00:46:47.210 --> 00:46:49.570
family and all that kind of stuff. But I really

00:46:49.570 --> 00:46:52.190
do want to get back into it even more. So when

00:46:52.190 --> 00:46:56.010
you were talking to these Special Forces guys,

00:46:56.170 --> 00:46:58.769
did you let them know that you're writing, that

00:46:58.769 --> 00:47:03.820
you write The Gray Man? Yeah, yeah. Early on,

00:47:03.980 --> 00:47:05.820
I mean, I actually heard the term the gray man

00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:08.619
at one of these classes from a guy. I think it

00:47:08.619 --> 00:47:11.260
was a contractor, which is just they would say,

00:47:11.340 --> 00:47:13.420
you know, be the gray man, which is like not

00:47:13.420 --> 00:47:15.880
wear the tactical gear and the 511 pants and

00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.900
the YLAX glasses and the Luminox watches or whatever,

00:47:19.980 --> 00:47:22.980
because they're traveling into the Middle East

00:47:22.980 --> 00:47:26.780
and, you know, the airport in Dubai or something

00:47:26.780 --> 00:47:29.619
like that. Al Qaeda would have like watchers

00:47:29.619 --> 00:47:31.360
there, you know, seeing who was coming in and

00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:33.679
things like that. And if you're there with Solomon

00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:35.920
boots on looking. Yeah, exactly. You got your

00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:37.780
Solomon's on. Black rifle coffee t -shirt. Yeah,

00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:40.280
exactly. You're kind of self -identifying. Yeah.

00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:44.920
So it's all about like not doing that. And that's

00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.480
kind of my character. It's expanded to where

00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:50.679
he basically, you know, invisible man. Yeah.

00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:58.349
Yeah. Balancing the. incredulity like balancing

00:47:58.349 --> 00:48:03.389
the the plausible Is that difficult? Because

00:48:03.389 --> 00:48:06.809
you've got a guy who's constantly involved in

00:48:06.809 --> 00:48:09.269
gunfights and knife fights and people are throwing

00:48:09.269 --> 00:48:11.929
knives at him. He's jumping out of fucking buildings.

00:48:12.829 --> 00:48:17.590
There's so much chaos. Yeah. There always has

00:48:17.590 --> 00:48:21.730
to be a kernel of some reality in it. In Sierra

00:48:21.730 --> 00:48:23.130
Six, the book that you're writing now, there's

00:48:23.130 --> 00:48:26.269
a big scene that takes place on scaffolding.

00:48:26.969 --> 00:48:30.719
I got through that already. Yeah. you know, Hong

00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:32.920
Kong. I wasn't in India where it took place because

00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:35.639
this was pre -COVID. I was in Hong Kong researching

00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:39.239
a Clancy novel. And I saw the scaffolding and

00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:40.960
I went up to it and I climbed up on part of it

00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:42.400
and I looked around, you know, and I was like,

00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:44.199
okay, if you cut this, then this ought to do

00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.699
this. Now, I wouldn't do it, you know, because

00:48:46.699 --> 00:48:49.699
it's six stories. But in the first Gray Man book,

00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:52.619
he has to have basically surgery or he has to

00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:56.039
get sutured up while he's driving, get his gut

00:48:56.039 --> 00:49:00.280
sutured up. And I talked to, you know, special

00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:03.019
forces medic and talked about doing that and

00:49:03.019 --> 00:49:05.730
the plausibility of that and going into shock

00:49:05.730 --> 00:49:08.090
and all these other things. And a lot of people

00:49:08.090 --> 00:49:09.550
kind of complained about it and said, that's

00:49:09.550 --> 00:49:11.170
so impossible. That's so impossible. And I'm

00:49:11.170 --> 00:49:13.250
like, yeah, but if you read the book again, he

00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:15.550
passes out while it happens and crashes the car.

00:49:15.630 --> 00:49:17.710
It's like, it was not perfectly successful. You

00:49:17.710 --> 00:49:19.730
know, it was like, he didn't come out. It wasn't

00:49:19.730 --> 00:49:21.710
like, he's just like, yeah, sew me up while I

00:49:21.710 --> 00:49:24.230
drive. People can do wild shit under pressure.

00:49:24.389 --> 00:49:27.469
Like to say that that's not possible. I read

00:49:27.469 --> 00:49:29.269
about a guy, I believe it was in Antarctica,

00:49:29.530 --> 00:49:32.289
who was a doctor who had to take his own appendix

00:49:32.289 --> 00:49:34.460
out. Unbelievable. And I think he might. have

00:49:34.460 --> 00:49:38.820
done it with no anesthesia i don't find out that

00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:41.519
because there's video of it or photos of it of

00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.579
this doctor like literally on the operating table

00:49:44.579 --> 00:49:48.940
cutting himself the man who cut out his own appendix

00:49:48.940 --> 00:49:53.320
so unbelievable yeah so there's photos of this

00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:56.820
gentleman on the operating table doing his own

00:49:56.820 --> 00:49:59.219
append there right there like look at that unbelievable

00:50:00.030 --> 00:50:03.210
I like how he gave himself a mask. Like, hey,

00:50:03.250 --> 00:50:06.690
bro, it's you. That's a good point. He intended

00:50:06.690 --> 00:50:08.750
to use a mirror to help him operate, but he found

00:50:08.750 --> 00:50:10.570
that it's inverted view too much of a hindrance,

00:50:10.570 --> 00:50:12.670
so he ended up working by touch without gloves.

00:50:13.670 --> 00:50:16.329
How crazy is that? I feel like I'd talk somebody

00:50:16.329 --> 00:50:17.789
else through it before I do it myself, but I

00:50:17.789 --> 00:50:20.590
don't know. I mean, I guess he didn't trust anybody

00:50:20.590 --> 00:50:25.369
else. I wonder what finally here it is, the cursed

00:50:25.369 --> 00:50:30.119
appendage. Wow. With horror, I noticed a dark

00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:34.559
stain at its base. That means just a day longer

00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:36.960
and it would have burst. My heart seized up and

00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:39.260
noticeably slowed. My hands felt like rubber.

00:50:39.460 --> 00:50:42.460
Well, I thought, it's going to end badly, and

00:50:42.460 --> 00:50:45.039
all that was left was removing the appendix.

00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:50.579
Wow. For a two -hour operation. Down to the final

00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:53.960
stitch. Tom Clancy had a saying that the difference

00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:56.420
between fiction and nonfiction is... fiction

00:50:56.420 --> 00:50:59.460
has to make sense. If I'd written that in a book,

00:50:59.539 --> 00:51:02.619
people would just laugh me off. There was a Navy

00:51:02.619 --> 00:51:07.079
SEAL that was shot 18 times and survived. If

00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.159
I had my hero shot 18 times and survived, no

00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:11.900
one would ever read it again. Wasn't Tupac shot

00:51:11.900 --> 00:51:18.340
like nine times? Yeah. Oh, no. 50 Cent. Tupac

00:51:18.340 --> 00:51:20.679
was two. He was shot a bunch of times, but he

00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:24.199
died. Not from that time. He survived one of

00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:25.860
those shootings. Right, but he wasn't shot like

00:51:25.860 --> 00:51:33.099
nine times. Both are correct, I believe. There

00:51:33.099 --> 00:51:36.119
was a guy, I think, in New York that was shot

00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.840
20 times by the police with .40 caliber pistols.

00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:42.639
Jesus. And he survived. They used .40s in New

00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:46.219
York? They were then. Wow. Isn't it funny? There's

00:51:46.219 --> 00:51:49.519
some talk on that, why they use such a high caliber.

00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:53.380
Are you trying to shoot somebody or not? I don't

00:51:53.380 --> 00:51:55.420
understand. Do you want to give the cops all

00:51:55.420 --> 00:51:58.420
.22s? What are you saying? With .22s, I'm going

00:51:58.420 --> 00:52:00.159
to shoot them 12 times. What do you want? It's

00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:03.579
the same amount of lead. You're trying to stop

00:52:03.579 --> 00:52:08.199
a threat, whatever tool you need. Do you get

00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:11.199
people that are upset that you are doing gun

00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:15.099
porn or that you're doing these? Yes. Sometimes,

00:52:15.300 --> 00:52:18.420
yes. You know, just people that read the book

00:52:18.420 --> 00:52:20.039
and say, you know, it's too violent, blah, blah,

00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:22.500
blah. And it's just not what they were looking

00:52:22.500 --> 00:52:24.179
for. And so I'm always kind of scratching my

00:52:24.179 --> 00:52:26.199
head at these reviews. I'm like, why did you

00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:28.820
spend 300? Why did you read 350 pages of a book

00:52:28.820 --> 00:52:31.480
that was not what you liked? You know, I might

00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:33.579
not want to read a book about butterflies. I

00:52:33.579 --> 00:52:36.639
wouldn't be like 293 pages going. I'm going to

00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:38.639
write a scathing review about a book I don't

00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:40.880
want to read. That is a problem with people that

00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:43.949
write reviews on almost anything. Because. When

00:52:43.949 --> 00:52:47.130
someone enjoys something and they want to go

00:52:47.130 --> 00:52:49.510
see that something, that's their genre. That's

00:52:49.510 --> 00:52:51.130
the thing they're interested in. Then they're

00:52:51.130 --> 00:52:52.829
going to write a review based on someone who

00:52:52.829 --> 00:52:55.110
actually enjoys the genre. But you get a lot

00:52:55.110 --> 00:52:57.489
of reviewers who are just reviewing things that

00:52:57.489 --> 00:53:00.510
they have no interest in at all. And they write

00:53:00.510 --> 00:53:02.949
these horrible negative reviews. And it's like,

00:53:03.030 --> 00:53:04.829
who are you trying to convince? People that think

00:53:04.829 --> 00:53:06.730
exactly like you weren't going to like it anyway.

00:53:07.489 --> 00:53:11.389
It's such a weird way to write things. Jack Carr

00:53:11.389 --> 00:53:14.050
and I had this. conversation with his podcast

00:53:14.050 --> 00:53:19.530
once where we were talking about the viewer reviews

00:53:19.530 --> 00:53:22.769
of our shows, Terminalist and Gray Man, and then

00:53:22.769 --> 00:53:26.230
the professional reviews or whatever. And the

00:53:26.230 --> 00:53:29.929
people that watched it... loved it overall the

00:53:29.929 --> 00:53:32.369
reviewers hated it but i mean they're gonna hate

00:53:32.369 --> 00:53:34.989
stuff like that of course i mean to a large degree

00:53:34.989 --> 00:53:36.590
not not everything you know there's some things

00:53:36.590 --> 00:53:39.789
that that you know somehow universally love but

00:53:39.789 --> 00:53:42.130
i but i said to jack i was like which would you

00:53:42.130 --> 00:53:44.869
rather have the 23 reviewers all love it or the

00:53:44.869 --> 00:53:47.889
you know 100 million people that watch it watch

00:53:47.889 --> 00:53:50.769
it yeah 100 yeah that's a great way to look at

00:53:50.769 --> 00:53:53.010
it you know who's a good example of that is that

00:53:53.010 --> 00:53:57.739
adam sandler adam sandler's movies all get destroyed

00:53:57.739 --> 00:53:59.860
by the critics yeah yeah but i think they're

00:53:59.860 --> 00:54:02.980
fucking great i love is they're so silly and

00:54:02.980 --> 00:54:05.800
i love that i watch them with my kids yeah and

00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.659
they're like they're easy to digest like even

00:54:08.659 --> 00:54:11.519
the zohan which is like a little racy hilarious

00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:14.519
yeah yeah gets torn apart by the critics yeah

00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:16.400
and i think his stuff does really well and of

00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:19.440
course it does and and he's just doing something

00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:21.599
different than what the critics i remember uh

00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:26.019
david lee roth once said the reason that um you

00:54:26.019 --> 00:54:29.269
know, like critics all hated. and they all loved

00:54:29.269 --> 00:54:30.909
Elvis Costello's because all the critics look

00:54:30.909 --> 00:54:33.269
like Elvis Costello, which I don't know if that's

00:54:33.269 --> 00:54:36.190
true. Well, that is a part of it, right? Elvis

00:54:36.190 --> 00:54:38.789
Costello was like the nerdy guy with the glasses,

00:54:38.849 --> 00:54:40.809
and he wasn't the good -looking guy who had all

00:54:40.809 --> 00:54:43.349
the chicks with him with his open shirt. David

00:54:43.349 --> 00:54:46.389
Lee Roth was the stud who was doing karate kicks

00:54:46.389 --> 00:54:49.110
on stage. Yeah, there's sour grapes involved

00:54:49.110 --> 00:54:52.469
in certain places. People can hate my books for

00:54:52.469 --> 00:54:53.989
a million different reasons, and that doesn't

00:54:53.989 --> 00:54:56.349
make them wrong. But it's also the narrative

00:54:56.349 --> 00:54:58.730
of the critics. was always so much more important

00:54:58.730 --> 00:55:00.929
than it is now because now the narrative of the

00:55:00.929 --> 00:55:03.230
critic gets drowned out by the narrative of the

00:55:03.230 --> 00:55:06.170
fans. Yeah, absolutely, for better or worse.

00:55:06.389 --> 00:55:09.949
I think it's for better because you get people

00:55:09.949 --> 00:55:12.329
that aren't professional critics, you just get

00:55:12.329 --> 00:55:15.130
informed readers who enjoy it or don't enjoy

00:55:15.130 --> 00:55:17.980
it, and then they share that. Whenever I go to

00:55:17.980 --> 00:55:20.840
an Amazon book review and I click on the reviews,

00:55:20.920 --> 00:55:23.300
I just read the reviews. Some of them are remarkably

00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:26.420
well -written. Oh, yeah. You see people that

00:55:26.420 --> 00:55:29.699
are passionate about it, even if they're criticizing

00:55:29.699 --> 00:55:34.710
something. Always had this philosophy. It's like

00:55:34.710 --> 00:55:36.889
if you read my book, if you if you spend the

00:55:36.889 --> 00:55:39.210
12 hours to read that book or whatever it takes,

00:55:39.389 --> 00:55:41.630
it's like you get to you get to share your opinion

00:55:41.630 --> 00:55:43.250
with whoever you want. You know, it's like I

00:55:43.250 --> 00:55:46.210
can't begrudge that. Sometimes I'll disagree

00:55:46.210 --> 00:55:48.170
with what they say. Sometimes I'll agree with

00:55:48.170 --> 00:55:51.289
it. The worst negative reviews are the ones where

00:55:51.289 --> 00:55:54.079
it's like, oh, this guy, this guy. He's got it.

00:55:54.179 --> 00:55:56.139
He's right. I like it when they're just assholes.

00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:59.599
They're just like, oh, this guy's nobody. But

00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:01.159
then sometimes you're going like, oh, he sees

00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:03.059
me. He sees the dark underbelly. But those guys

00:56:03.059 --> 00:56:06.340
are really good because if someone who can really

00:56:06.340 --> 00:56:08.820
see it and they expose something that makes you

00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:10.320
uncomfortable, that gives you an opportunity

00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:11.940
to get better. Yeah, yeah, to think about it.

00:56:12.039 --> 00:56:15.079
That does happen to me for sure. I feel like

00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:18.659
the – Real problem with critics is that most

00:56:18.659 --> 00:56:22.099
critics wish they were writers, but they just

00:56:22.099 --> 00:56:23.940
don't have anything to contribute. They're just

00:56:23.940 --> 00:56:26.780
not good. And so they try to tear down other

00:56:26.780 --> 00:56:29.139
people's work, whether it's film critics or movie

00:56:29.139 --> 00:56:31.900
critics or even stand -up comedy critics. They

00:56:31.900 --> 00:56:35.480
don't have anything to contribute, so they're

00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:37.739
bitter and negative. They don't want to be critics.

00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:39.619
Nobody sits out and says, like, I really want

00:56:39.619 --> 00:56:42.400
to be a critic of other people's work. No, most

00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:45.530
people... that are critics like when you're writing

00:56:45.530 --> 00:56:47.909
an article a criticism article or writing an

00:56:47.909 --> 00:56:51.670
editorial you are a creative you're being creative

00:56:51.670 --> 00:56:56.670
but the predominant creativity involved in criticism

00:56:56.670 --> 00:57:00.590
is like this negative bitchy, creative energy

00:57:00.590 --> 00:57:03.650
that's not attractive if you're trying to make

00:57:03.650 --> 00:57:05.909
something. It's only attractive when you're tearing

00:57:05.909 --> 00:57:08.429
something down. So the energy that these people

00:57:08.429 --> 00:57:12.090
have, this bitter, shitty energy, it sucks for

00:57:12.090 --> 00:57:16.030
writing something unique and creative, like coming

00:57:16.030 --> 00:57:18.769
up with your own book. But it's good for tearing

00:57:18.769 --> 00:57:21.510
apart other people's stuff in a really snarky

00:57:21.510 --> 00:57:23.489
way. Yeah, I've been saying that for years and

00:57:23.489 --> 00:57:25.469
years, but never as eloquently. I'm going to

00:57:25.469 --> 00:57:27.190
watch this later and write down what you just

00:57:27.190 --> 00:57:31.429
said. I have said, like, you'll read a review,

00:57:31.510 --> 00:57:34.929
and just to make the review a better little piece

00:57:34.929 --> 00:57:38.389
of writing for them, they basically change the

00:57:38.389 --> 00:57:41.530
story. You know, there's basically really disingenuous

00:57:41.530 --> 00:57:43.449
stuff in there. Right. Not every review, obviously.

00:57:44.750 --> 00:57:46.550
But that happens sometimes. And I'm going like,

00:57:46.650 --> 00:57:49.469
oh, OK, as a writer, I know how you wanted to

00:57:49.469 --> 00:57:52.429
make these two paragraphs like like really impactful

00:57:52.429 --> 00:57:55.210
here. So you just told some bullshit about my

00:57:55.210 --> 00:57:57.409
story that is not even in the story. Right. Yeah.

00:57:57.469 --> 00:57:59.329
They're just not good. Yeah. It's what it is.

00:57:59.369 --> 00:58:02.190
You're you're you're getting it's it's like non

00:58:02.190 --> 00:58:06.130
athletes talking shit about athletes. Yeah. Like

00:58:06.130 --> 00:58:08.329
you get that in the sports world. Yeah. You get

00:58:08.329 --> 00:58:12.010
like these basketball commentators online and

00:58:12.010 --> 00:58:15.579
then like doing podcasts. and doing these shows

00:58:15.579 --> 00:58:18.320
where they're just talking crazy shit about these

00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:22.440
players, and they can't fucking play. They're

00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:24.860
not players. You get that in the fighting world,

00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:26.440
too. You get these people that are talking shit

00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:28.719
about fighters. I'm like, you can't fight. Shut

00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:31.039
the fuck up. Yeah, they can be proved wrong a

00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:34.900
lot faster than somebody could prove a critic

00:58:34.900 --> 00:58:37.420
wrong about writing. Yeah, the writing thing,

00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:41.650
though, it's... It's a human nature thing. It's

00:58:41.650 --> 00:58:45.769
a tall poppy thing. It's crabs in a bucket, tearing

00:58:45.769 --> 00:58:47.690
down people that are more successful than you.

00:58:47.989 --> 00:58:50.869
Especially if you're a critic, you are a writer.

00:58:50.969 --> 00:58:53.449
You're involved in the genre of writing. Don't

00:58:53.449 --> 00:58:55.329
tell me you don't want to write something unique

00:58:55.329 --> 00:58:58.030
and creative because you certainly do. I remember

00:58:58.030 --> 00:59:02.320
Roger Ebert. um well who's you know siskel and

00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:04.940
ebert classic yeah he wrote one of the worst

00:59:04.940 --> 00:59:08.940
fucking screenplays like really it's so bad and

00:59:08.940 --> 00:59:13.559
so crazy that you read it you're like oh wow

00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:17.789
okay yeah Now I get it. Now I know why you're

00:59:17.789 --> 00:59:21.230
a critic. You're this, like, frustrated creative

00:59:21.230 --> 00:59:25.030
type who didn't have the juice to write something

00:59:25.030 --> 00:59:28.289
that was actually good. What is the screenplay

00:59:28.289 --> 00:59:30.670
that Roger Ebert wrote? It's really weird. I

00:59:30.670 --> 00:59:32.690
read, like, many pages of it. I'm like, this

00:59:32.690 --> 00:59:34.750
is crazy. And you can just sort of discount everything

00:59:34.750 --> 00:59:37.809
that he says after that. It's horrible. It's

00:59:37.809 --> 00:59:40.070
so bad. It says he co -wrote Beyond the Valley

00:59:40.070 --> 00:59:42.769
of the Dolls, which I don't. Yeah, but what did

00:59:42.769 --> 00:59:48.380
he write? He wrote something by himself. I mean,

00:59:48.380 --> 00:59:50.920
I wrote Robert Jude Ebert screenplay. It says

00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:54.880
there's a couple screenplays. Yeah. Why don't

00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:57.599
you Google Robert Ebert terrible screenplay?

00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:03.539
I mean, this says it gave me four answers. Beyond

01:00:03.539 --> 01:00:06.539
the Valley of the Dolls. Up. Who Killed Bambi.

01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:11.119
Softcore sex comedy. Maybe that's it. There's

01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:13.380
one of them that's kind of perverted. Well, I

01:00:13.380 --> 01:00:16.820
mean. That would be it. That's probably it. Yeah.

01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:21.380
A man named Adolf Schwartz, Adolf Hitler in hiding.

01:00:21.420 --> 01:00:24.340
This is it. Oh, my God. Was living in a Bavarian

01:00:24.340 --> 01:00:26.940
-style castle in Northern California after an

01:00:26.940 --> 01:00:30.880
orgy in the dungeon with three women and a man.

01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:34.480
He is murdered when someone places a ravenous

01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:37.739
piranha fish in his bathtub. This is a fucking

01:00:37.739 --> 01:00:41.480
dumb. A voluptuous woman named Margo Winchester

01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:45.110
appears later in the town. in the nearby town

01:00:45.110 --> 01:00:48.030
Miranda and is spotted by local sheriff Homer

01:00:48.030 --> 01:00:50.429
Johnson. He tries to make advances, but Margo

01:00:50.429 --> 01:00:53.929
rejects flirtatiously. At this point, after that,

01:00:53.989 --> 01:00:56.469
she is picked up by Leonard Box, a known troublemaker

01:00:56.469 --> 01:00:59.349
and son of a sawmill operator. An argument breaks

01:00:59.349 --> 01:01:01.710
out, the result that Leonard subdues and rapes

01:01:01.710 --> 01:01:04.710
the unconscious Margo after she accidentally

01:01:04.710 --> 01:01:11.309
kills him. What? Sounds... Oh, okay. Based on

01:01:11.309 --> 01:01:14.420
an original idea by... yeah he's out of his fucking

01:01:14.420 --> 01:01:16.699
mind he was out of his fucking it was apparently

01:01:16.699 --> 01:01:19.880
it's so bad like the people that have read it

01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:22.300
and like what the fuck is wrong with you yeah

01:01:22.300 --> 01:01:25.539
but it makes you understand like oh yeah okay

01:01:25.539 --> 01:01:28.079
this is why you're so snarky you have a chip

01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:31.420
on your shoulder yeah yeah yeah it was it's a

01:01:32.059 --> 01:01:33.960
It's a strange thing to be a critic of stuff

01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:37.900
because it's like it is a kind of unfocused energy.

01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:40.619
Yeah, and it's – so much stuff is subjective.

01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:42.099
I mean that doesn't mean I don't have – we all

01:01:42.099 --> 01:01:44.440
have opinions, right? So it's like even though

01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.719
something is subjective, I can go, wow, I don't

01:01:46.719 --> 01:01:48.440
like that at all. But I don't – it's not that

01:01:48.440 --> 01:01:50.400
I objectively don't like it. It's not like it's

01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:53.420
like these four words should not be – usually

01:01:53.420 --> 01:01:55.280
if you're published, you're able to write a sentence.

01:01:56.860 --> 01:01:59.860
I think people are very much entitled to their

01:01:59.860 --> 01:02:01.679
own opinion. Don't get me wrong. But what I think

01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:06.320
is that the model of the professional critic,

01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:10.019
I think it has so many problems with it. And

01:02:10.019 --> 01:02:12.000
I'm sure there's people out there that are professional

01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:14.820
critics that are very good. This is not a blanket

01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:18.699
statement. But I think we're better served by

01:02:18.699 --> 01:02:22.820
the unprofessional. by the actual person who's

01:02:22.820 --> 01:02:25.559
just an intelligent person who's a fan of the

01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:28.599
work, who reads the book, and then can write

01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:30.940
a little Amazon review or some other critique

01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:35.480
about it. Or a tweet about it. That's what I

01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:38.659
think is more valuable. And in the aggregate,

01:02:38.699 --> 01:02:41.699
too. So you say, like, this many people liked

01:02:41.699 --> 01:02:45.280
it. Right. And each individual review, you can

01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:47.590
sort of, like, maybe... Throw away the top and

01:02:47.590 --> 01:02:50.150
the bottom ones. It's like somebody tells me

01:02:50.150 --> 01:02:52.449
that I'm the best writer since Frederick Forsyth

01:02:52.449 --> 01:02:54.969
or whatever, and I go like, all right, I'm discounting

01:02:54.969 --> 01:02:56.630
you. But somebody says, hey, I really loved your

01:02:56.630 --> 01:02:59.489
book. It was fun. I'm like, okay, that I'm accepting.

01:02:59.769 --> 01:03:02.409
And somebody that says you're the worst thing

01:03:02.409 --> 01:03:04.590
that ever lived, I'm like, I can discount you.

01:03:04.710 --> 01:03:07.030
But there's levels of criticism where I'm like,

01:03:07.070 --> 01:03:09.309
crap, I can't discount that. Yeah. Well, those

01:03:09.309 --> 01:03:11.349
are valuable though, right? Yeah, sure. It's

01:03:11.349 --> 01:03:16.210
like if you crowdsourced all the opinions. The

01:03:16.210 --> 01:03:18.889
problem is you can game that, right? If a person's

01:03:18.889 --> 01:03:21.289
problematic, like if you're going to crowdsource

01:03:21.289 --> 01:03:25.309
a J .K. Rowling's book today, well, the thing

01:03:25.309 --> 01:03:27.630
about the criticisms, it would be overrun by

01:03:27.630 --> 01:03:30.210
people who are like trans activists who are angry

01:03:30.210 --> 01:03:34.519
at her for her stance on women being women. That

01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:37.800
becomes a problem. And I've said that often about

01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:40.900
fights, that maybe we should crowdsource the

01:03:40.900 --> 01:03:44.039
scoring instead of having these people that are

01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:46.059
professional judges because some of them, they

01:03:46.059 --> 01:03:50.860
get it so wrong. And some scoring is so – you'll

01:03:50.860 --> 01:03:54.880
see like 49 -47, 49 -47, and then you'll see

01:03:54.880 --> 01:04:00.070
one that is just like – 50 -45. Watching a different

01:04:00.070 --> 01:04:02.130
fight. How are you watching the same fight? You're

01:04:02.130 --> 01:04:04.429
so different than everyone else that scored it.

01:04:05.010 --> 01:04:08.409
But then the crowd thing is like then you could

01:04:08.409 --> 01:04:12.769
game the system and have your fans vote and say

01:04:12.769 --> 01:04:15.090
you won the fight when maybe you didn't. And

01:04:15.090 --> 01:04:17.889
I'm sure that happens. I have a lady that I won't

01:04:17.889 --> 01:04:19.670
go into the whole story but I have a lady that

01:04:20.839 --> 01:04:23.780
makes an Amazon review every year when my book

01:04:23.780 --> 01:04:26.079
comes out because she hates me. Oh boy. She used

01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:30.099
to be like my number one fan. And then she told

01:04:30.099 --> 01:04:32.239
another author, it's like, I heard you wrote,

01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:34.539
you're writing Mark Graney's books now or whatever.

01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:36.039
And then, so I emailed her, I was like, Hey,

01:04:36.059 --> 01:04:39.150
uh, I write my own books, and authors don't love

01:04:39.150 --> 01:04:41.150
it when people are saying they don't. And she

01:04:41.150 --> 01:04:44.030
just came at me with this rage. And this was

01:04:44.030 --> 01:04:46.150
seven, eight years ago, and I still hear from

01:04:46.150 --> 01:04:49.250
her. And it's F off and die and stuff like that.

01:04:49.269 --> 01:04:53.849
She'll send me emails. And she says a one -star

01:04:53.849 --> 01:04:55.670
review on every one of my books is from this

01:04:55.670 --> 01:04:58.409
woman named Cheryl. And it's just sort of like,

01:04:58.570 --> 01:05:01.449
you know, he lives in a mansion now, which I

01:05:01.449 --> 01:05:04.110
don't know. And, you know, it's like at one point

01:05:04.110 --> 01:05:05.989
in one of the reviews, she's like, I understand

01:05:05.989 --> 01:05:08.869
why. His first wife left him, which she didn't.

01:05:08.949 --> 01:05:11.210
And you're going like, all right, I guess I'm

01:05:11.210 --> 01:05:14.170
always going to be skewed. I mean, you can get

01:05:14.170 --> 01:05:15.849
15 ,000 reviews. But, I mean, it's just funny

01:05:15.849 --> 01:05:18.570
that this person has a beef with me and they're

01:05:18.570 --> 01:05:21.230
going to take it to their grave. He lives in

01:05:21.230 --> 01:05:24.050
a mansion now. It's hilarious. What are you supposed

01:05:24.050 --> 01:05:25.789
to do when you get successful? Stay in your shitty

01:05:25.789 --> 01:05:28.969
fucking apartment. I don't want to hear from

01:05:28.969 --> 01:05:33.269
you. Drive that Volvo. Yeah, it's kind of funny

01:05:33.269 --> 01:05:36.920
that people just want you to be. Like if you

01:05:36.920 --> 01:05:38.940
become too successful, they want you to be out

01:05:38.940 --> 01:05:42.300
of touch. Yeah, or they see something in the

01:05:42.300 --> 01:05:44.420
book that they think is political, which I don't

01:05:44.420 --> 01:05:46.360
think is political at all. One of the Clancy

01:05:46.360 --> 01:05:48.619
books, these people, and I think they were like

01:05:48.619 --> 01:05:51.980
militia people, started emailing me. And they

01:05:51.980 --> 01:05:55.239
kept saying like, you know, you West Coast liberals

01:05:55.239 --> 01:05:56.840
don't understand, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like,

01:05:56.900 --> 01:06:00.679
I live in Memphis. I'm sitting in a Starbucks

01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:03.159
with a gun on my hip and a gun on my ankle. And

01:06:03.159 --> 01:06:05.599
it was sort of like you. Libtard, West Coast

01:06:05.599 --> 01:06:07.860
liberals don't understand anything. That's hilarious.

01:06:07.860 --> 01:06:11.199
And I'm going like, okay, all right. Well, people

01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:13.860
want to have a narrative that suits their ideas

01:06:13.860 --> 01:06:16.920
of what you are and what you should be and who

01:06:16.920 --> 01:06:19.900
they are. It's like you're not going to make

01:06:19.900 --> 01:06:21.400
everybody happy. It's absolutely impossible.

01:06:21.659 --> 01:06:24.739
And some people will get you totally wrong. They'll

01:06:24.739 --> 01:06:28.570
just come up with some complete. Yeah. False

01:06:28.570 --> 01:06:30.889
narrative of who you are and what you're doing

01:06:30.889 --> 01:06:32.769
and why you're doing it. And the fact that you're

01:06:32.769 --> 01:06:35.190
faking it or you're being paid off. Right. Yeah.

01:06:35.389 --> 01:06:37.869
You're a propagandist. Oh, yeah. I've gotten

01:06:37.869 --> 01:06:40.650
the emails where people are essentially saying

01:06:40.650 --> 01:06:42.769
they think I'm in the Illuminati or something.

01:06:42.849 --> 01:06:45.690
And I'm like. I barely got through high school.

01:06:45.849 --> 01:06:48.489
I went to public school and got crappy grades

01:06:48.489 --> 01:06:50.170
and I went to, you know, like State College.

01:06:50.769 --> 01:06:53.750
And, you know, it's like I'm not trying to sell

01:06:53.750 --> 01:06:56.050
myself out as anything bigger than I am. I'm

01:06:56.050 --> 01:06:57.349
just trying to write a little book. The Illuminati.

01:06:57.349 --> 01:07:00.280
That's hilarious. That's a big one. You're in

01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:03.539
the Illuminati. How do you get in? There's an

01:07:03.539 --> 01:07:07.059
inverse correlation between how – well, there's

01:07:07.059 --> 01:07:08.699
a positive correlation between how long someone's

01:07:08.699 --> 01:07:11.440
email is and how crazy they are. So it's like,

01:07:11.579 --> 01:07:14.539
oh, it's a manifesto. Okay. It's like the quick

01:07:14.539 --> 01:07:16.099
ones are like, hey, I really enjoyed your book.

01:07:16.219 --> 01:07:19.340
But then the non -quick ones are the ones that

01:07:19.340 --> 01:07:23.099
are like three pages of like – ipso facto. That's

01:07:23.099 --> 01:07:25.860
a good tip off when someone writes that. I've

01:07:25.860 --> 01:07:27.539
never used that word in my life, that phrase.

01:07:29.980 --> 01:07:32.420
Yeah. Well, you know, it's part of the beauty

01:07:32.420 --> 01:07:34.579
of dealing with the general public. You're going

01:07:34.579 --> 01:07:36.119
to get a certain amount of crazy people. Yeah.

01:07:36.179 --> 01:07:39.500
I appreciate them. Yeah. It's okay. Yeah. Some

01:07:39.500 --> 01:07:42.599
people like that, though, if you do somehow or

01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:44.800
another get in contact with them and you communicate

01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:46.559
with them, they realize, oh, you're just a person.

01:07:46.780 --> 01:07:48.860
Yeah. It happens to me all the time. Isn't that

01:07:48.860 --> 01:07:51.340
weird? Like, have you met people that were famous

01:07:51.340 --> 01:07:53.000
and you freaked out and you, like, weirded out

01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:56.699
around them? Yeah. I mean, but, you know. kept

01:07:56.699 --> 01:07:58.780
it to myself but it takes a while before like

01:07:58.780 --> 01:08:00.980
one of the people that I met that I was like

01:08:00.980 --> 01:08:03.099
really weirded out was Anthony Bourdain I'll

01:08:03.099 --> 01:08:05.300
never forget this is hilarious because I used

01:08:05.300 --> 01:08:07.420
to love that show No Reservations I used to watch

01:08:07.420 --> 01:08:09.679
it religiously and my wife was like oh you're

01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:11.139
watching your boyfriend she was always joking

01:08:11.139 --> 01:08:15.219
around and so I meet him and I'm starstruck right

01:08:15.219 --> 01:08:18.300
and I say my wife says you're my boyfriend And

01:08:18.300 --> 01:08:22.939
he's like, what the fuck? I'm like, oh, no. He

01:08:22.939 --> 01:08:26.899
thinks I'm a fucking idiot. Oh, no. And I eventually

01:08:26.899 --> 01:08:29.020
became good friends with him, and it was cool.

01:08:29.220 --> 01:08:33.140
It was nice. Yeah, yeah. It was like, you know,

01:08:33.180 --> 01:08:34.340
it was one of those things where it was like,

01:08:34.420 --> 01:08:36.739
okay. Like, I have a phone that I'm never going

01:08:36.739 --> 01:08:38.319
to get rid of because it was like the last phone

01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:41.659
that I texted with him on. Wow. He sent me stuff.

01:08:41.699 --> 01:08:43.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just one of those things

01:08:43.779 --> 01:08:46.149
where it's like. I had to get over the fact that

01:08:46.149 --> 01:08:48.109
it was this guy that I admired. And then here

01:08:48.109 --> 01:08:51.289
he is. And now I'm friends with him. Am I eating

01:08:51.289 --> 01:08:53.310
with him and stuff? We're drinking. This is crazy.

01:08:54.050 --> 01:08:57.510
It's weird. Famous people are weird. It's a strange

01:08:57.510 --> 01:09:02.010
thing. But as a famous person, I realized we're

01:09:02.010 --> 01:09:04.510
just all the same. We're all just people. It's

01:09:04.510 --> 01:09:06.329
just something weird happens when so many people

01:09:06.329 --> 01:09:09.529
know about you. Yeah. And what I used to think

01:09:09.529 --> 01:09:13.899
before I had any... you know, people knew who

01:09:13.899 --> 01:09:16.119
I was. I used to think like the really successful

01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:18.359
people turn to assholes because they're not,

01:09:18.359 --> 01:09:19.739
they're not as friendly. They don't reach out,

01:09:19.760 --> 01:09:21.899
you know, but now it's like, I'll get like, you

01:09:21.899 --> 01:09:25.579
know, 90 people a day sending me some sort of

01:09:25.579 --> 01:09:27.439
thing on social media or an email or something

01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:29.460
like that. And there's people that if I don't

01:09:29.460 --> 01:09:31.260
respond to them immediately, they're like, Oh,

01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:32.859
you know, I guess you're too good. You know,

01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:36.039
you're, you know, and it's not me being an asshole.

01:09:36.060 --> 01:09:37.960
You get a little bit protective because, because

01:09:37.960 --> 01:09:41.970
one out of a hundred of them, can ruin your life.

01:09:42.050 --> 01:09:44.770
Yeah. There's a guy who, who he'll watch this.

01:09:44.829 --> 01:09:47.909
So who knows? He'll probably wear my skin as

01:09:47.909 --> 01:09:51.149
a suit. Now it'd be all your fault. But now he,

01:09:51.210 --> 01:09:53.779
he. thinks that he is the gray man and he tells

01:09:53.779 --> 01:09:57.539
me you know about how we had met and he gave

01:09:57.539 --> 01:10:00.300
me the idea for the story and it's been going

01:10:00.300 --> 01:10:01.880
on for years and I don't I replied to him the

01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:03.159
first couple times like yeah I don't think we

01:10:03.159 --> 01:10:05.460
met but he he saw something I said publicly about

01:10:05.460 --> 01:10:07.020
where I got the idea for the story and I was

01:10:07.020 --> 01:10:09.079
down in El Salvador and when I got the idea and

01:10:09.079 --> 01:10:10.899
he's like I met you at a bar in El Salvador it's

01:10:10.899 --> 01:10:13.359
like right out of an interview you know and he's

01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:15.899
been doing it for years and I'm I'm not sure

01:10:15.899 --> 01:10:18.119
like he's like I don't want money I just want

01:10:18.119 --> 01:10:20.359
you to tell me that you know that it's me or

01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:22.539
something Yeah, well, there's a lot of people

01:10:22.539 --> 01:10:24.699
that are schizophrenic. I mean, there's a certain

01:10:24.699 --> 01:10:26.100
percentage of the population, I think it's like

01:10:26.100 --> 01:10:28.720
1 % or something like that, that is just schizophrenic,

01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:30.939
period, no matter what you do. It's just the

01:10:30.939 --> 01:10:33.100
wiring of the brain. I had a guy call my then

01:10:33.100 --> 01:10:37.020
90 -year -old aunt at 5 in the morning looking

01:10:37.020 --> 01:10:39.260
for my number because she was in the phone book

01:10:39.260 --> 01:10:41.020
in Memphis and I wasn't in the phone book in

01:10:41.020 --> 01:10:42.939
Memphis. And she's like, I need his number, I

01:10:42.939 --> 01:10:45.460
need his number. And so I figured out who it

01:10:45.460 --> 01:10:47.680
was because there's a short list of people that

01:10:47.680 --> 01:10:50.180
were like... being a little weird and uh and

01:10:50.180 --> 01:10:51.479
i figured out who it was and i was like look

01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:54.359
man you um you know i'm going to the cops you

01:10:54.359 --> 01:10:56.800
do this again and he said instead of him saying

01:10:56.800 --> 01:11:00.380
sorry he's like i hope you see that the links

01:11:00.380 --> 01:11:04.699
that i went to to reach you uh shows you how

01:11:04.699 --> 01:11:07.279
intense i feel about this project that we can

01:11:07.279 --> 01:11:10.659
work on together it's like no no i it What I

01:11:10.659 --> 01:11:13.399
see is that you called my aunt at five in the

01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:15.699
morning and tried to berate her into giving me

01:11:15.699 --> 01:11:18.060
a phone call. Well, I think there's also a thing

01:11:18.060 --> 01:11:20.279
that people don't understand if they're not doing

01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:24.500
what you do, where you are so busy. You're so

01:11:24.500 --> 01:11:28.420
involved in your work. And this idea that. Another

01:11:28.420 --> 01:11:32.180
person who's not busy, who is obsessed with doing

01:11:32.180 --> 01:11:34.520
something with you, somehow or another can talk

01:11:34.520 --> 01:11:36.619
you into that. You're like, I don't have the

01:11:36.619 --> 01:11:38.960
bandwidth. There's no room for you. There's no

01:11:38.960 --> 01:11:42.279
time. There's no nothing. There's no way. I don't

01:11:42.279 --> 01:11:44.619
have any time for anything. Yeah. People want,

01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:46.279
you know, they're like, oh, I've got a story

01:11:46.279 --> 01:11:48.159
for you. You're going to want to write this book.

01:11:48.319 --> 01:11:51.520
And it's like, and my pat answer, I don't usually

01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:53.760
reply to them now, but my pat answer was like,

01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:56.039
just as you are passionate about that idea, I

01:11:56.039 --> 01:11:57.840
have ideas of my own about. which I'm passionate,

01:11:57.979 --> 01:11:59.600
and that's what I'm working on right now. But

01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:01.359
even people, you know, they're like, will you

01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:04.439
read my book or whatever? And I blurb people's

01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:07.460
books all the time. But I'm like, is it the same

01:12:07.460 --> 01:12:09.060
for you where it takes a couple weeks of your

01:12:09.060 --> 01:12:10.640
free time to read a book? Are you asking for

01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:12.600
a couple weeks of my free time? And it's like

01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:15.399
I do things to help people, you know, if there's

01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:17.359
some sort of connection or personal, but, like,

01:12:17.399 --> 01:12:20.239
you just can't. You can't. I can either be the

01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:22.699
guy that publishes 300 ,000 words a year or I

01:12:22.699 --> 01:12:25.659
can be the guy that reads the books when people,

01:12:25.819 --> 01:12:28.130
you know. have ideas. Well, I don't think anybody

01:12:28.130 --> 01:12:31.789
who is not in this sort of public sphere has

01:12:31.789 --> 01:12:34.609
any understanding of how many people are coming

01:12:34.609 --> 01:12:38.869
at you with projects and ideas on any given day.

01:12:39.010 --> 01:12:42.069
Like I can't keep up with the text messages from

01:12:42.069 --> 01:12:44.289
people that I know. Yeah. Like your friends.

01:12:44.470 --> 01:12:46.630
It's impossible. Yeah. I'm missing out on opportunities

01:12:46.630 --> 01:12:48.109
like with people that I've been friends with

01:12:48.109 --> 01:12:50.229
my whole life and I feel like a jerk. I don't

01:12:50.229 --> 01:12:52.710
even mean opportunities. I mean, I can't respond

01:12:52.710 --> 01:12:55.329
to all the text messages I get. And then I have

01:12:55.329 --> 01:12:57.869
to. answer emails I can't respond to those yeah

01:12:57.869 --> 01:13:00.390
there's fucking too many yeah it's like I don't

01:13:00.390 --> 01:13:02.750
have that you would I would literally have to

01:13:02.750 --> 01:13:05.470
have another life right to just interact clone

01:13:05.470 --> 01:13:08.569
yourself yeah it's like a separate me yeah that

01:13:08.569 --> 01:13:11.189
just interacts with people on social media interacts

01:13:11.189 --> 01:13:13.270
with people in email interacts with people in

01:13:13.270 --> 01:13:15.409
text messages yeah it's just not after a while

01:13:15.409 --> 01:13:17.430
it's not possible so I just change my number

01:13:17.430 --> 01:13:19.710
every now and again yeah yeah and just lose people

01:13:19.710 --> 01:13:23.670
sorry do what you can disappear reach out stay

01:13:23.670 --> 01:13:25.869
in contact with the people that you really want

01:13:25.869 --> 01:13:27.310
to be in contact with. Yeah, it's not even really

01:13:27.310 --> 01:13:28.989
want. Like some of the people I really do want

01:13:28.989 --> 01:13:31.770
to be with, but I can't. I just don't have the

01:13:31.770 --> 01:13:34.350
time. It's like you get to a certain, there's

01:13:34.350 --> 01:13:37.369
like a certain number of interactions that are

01:13:37.369 --> 01:13:39.350
just untenable. Yeah. And it just gets to this.

01:13:39.390 --> 01:13:41.689
And it's not that I'm more important than anybody

01:13:41.689 --> 01:13:44.069
else. No, I'm not. I was just as important when

01:13:44.069 --> 01:13:46.609
I was working at Burger King, you know, a long,

01:13:46.670 --> 01:13:50.050
long time ago. It's just literally hours in the

01:13:50.050 --> 01:13:54.029
day. And, you know, it's like I have, they, have

01:13:54.029 --> 01:13:57.050
the cover for my book on Amazon for pre -order

01:13:57.050 --> 01:13:58.890
before I write the first word of it. So, you

01:13:58.890 --> 01:14:01.890
know, it's coming out next. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

01:14:02.029 --> 01:14:04.289
I talked to Jack about that. I think it's like,

01:14:04.310 --> 01:14:07.470
you know, like he, he's ready to go and he's

01:14:07.470 --> 01:14:10.010
like, okay, time to lock myself up. Yeah. Cause

01:14:10.010 --> 01:14:12.710
it's just, you have a deadline in this debt.

01:14:12.750 --> 01:14:14.869
And then also you want it to be the best fucking

01:14:14.869 --> 01:14:17.130
thing you could do because you've done so many

01:14:17.130 --> 01:14:19.430
great books already that this has got, you got

01:14:19.430 --> 01:14:21.729
to nail it. Yeah. So there's so much pressure

01:14:21.729 --> 01:14:24.090
and there's so much, and then I'll, What about

01:14:24.090 --> 01:14:26.510
this, Mark? Mark, how about me? What about me,

01:14:26.609 --> 01:14:28.149
Mark? Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, I love your

01:14:28.149 --> 01:14:29.890
work. Mark, I'm your biggest fan. It makes me

01:14:29.890 --> 01:14:33.090
think of Misery. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Another

01:14:33.090 --> 01:14:35.729
Stephen King. Amazing book. Oh, gosh. I mean,

01:14:35.770 --> 01:14:37.850
what was the woman's name that played? Kathy

01:14:37.850 --> 01:14:40.199
Bates. Kathy Bates is amazing. We went to the

01:14:40.199 --> 01:14:42.500
same high school. She's amazing in that movie.

01:14:42.539 --> 01:14:45.100
Yeah, she's so good. That was one of those castings

01:14:45.100 --> 01:14:47.819
where, oh, my God, she nailed it. Oh, yeah. She

01:14:47.819 --> 01:14:49.939
fucking nailed it. Like, her career was made.

01:14:50.079 --> 01:14:52.720
She got that role, and she just made a meal out

01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:55.800
of it, and it was so good. Yeah, that was great.

01:14:56.020 --> 01:14:59.920
That was a great adaptation, and she was perfect,

01:15:00.140 --> 01:15:02.439
and James Caan was perfect in it, too. Like,

01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:04.340
oh, my God, she's so good. I've got to watch

01:15:04.340 --> 01:15:06.039
it again. I've seen it 10 times, and I'm going

01:15:06.039 --> 01:15:08.199
to watch it again. She's so good. Yeah. There's

01:15:08.199 --> 01:15:10.520
some people that... And Charlize Theron's like

01:15:10.520 --> 01:15:12.800
that in Monster. Oh, my God. When she played

01:15:12.800 --> 01:15:15.319
Eileen Wuornos, holy shit. She's a different

01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:18.079
person. She's so fucking hot. She's hot as the

01:15:18.079 --> 01:15:20.819
sun. And then she gets fat and shaves her eyebrows

01:15:20.819 --> 01:15:22.619
off, and she looks like this psycho. And you're

01:15:22.619 --> 01:15:24.619
like, oh, my God, that's not even prosthetics?

01:15:24.760 --> 01:15:27.239
You did that to your body? That's insane. Yeah,

01:15:27.239 --> 01:15:30.239
she looked like a killer. And also for a woman

01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:33.420
who's a gorgeous woman, who's like this A -list

01:15:33.420 --> 01:15:37.439
actress, to do that to her body, and, you know,

01:15:37.479 --> 01:15:39.010
probably hard. It's hard to bounce back from

01:15:39.010 --> 01:15:41.289
that, too, you know? I bet it was hard. I mean,

01:15:41.310 --> 01:15:44.229
look at her. Look at how fucking... Dude. Yeah.

01:15:44.409 --> 01:15:47.529
She fucking nailed it. But I wonder if there's

01:15:47.529 --> 01:15:50.550
something, like, liberating about, like, totally

01:15:50.550 --> 01:15:52.970
changing your identity for something like that.

01:15:53.109 --> 01:15:55.510
I bet if you're a sex symbol like her, because,

01:15:55.590 --> 01:15:57.949
you know, she's so fucking hot. Like, go to a

01:15:57.949 --> 01:16:00.229
picture of her just looking hot as fuck, Jamie.

01:16:00.829 --> 01:16:02.829
Go to that one with her, the Oscar, right there.

01:16:03.670 --> 01:16:06.590
The one there, the blue dress when she's wearing

01:16:06.590 --> 01:16:08.109
it. Yeah, that's perfect right there. Make that

01:16:08.109 --> 01:16:10.350
one bigger. Like, come on, son. How are you going

01:16:10.350 --> 01:16:12.670
to say that that... Lady's going to be an ugly

01:16:12.670 --> 01:16:15.810
serial killer. It's impossible. But she nailed

01:16:15.810 --> 01:16:17.930
it, and then she bounced right back. It's crazy.

01:16:18.529 --> 01:16:20.949
People like that, that's a rare person. If you

01:16:20.949 --> 01:16:23.050
can get that person, like a Christian Bales willing

01:16:23.050 --> 01:16:25.670
to starve himself for the machinist, you can

01:16:25.670 --> 01:16:28.630
get someone like that to do your role. God damn.

01:16:28.770 --> 01:16:31.229
There's a lot of examples of that. Daniel Lewis.

01:16:31.689 --> 01:16:35.329
They just become a different human being. But

01:16:35.329 --> 01:16:38.069
Kathy Bates, God damn, was she perfect for that

01:16:38.069 --> 01:16:41.300
role. She's so good. But that's the fear. fucking

01:16:41.300 --> 01:16:43.340
crazy person is completely obsessed with your

01:16:43.340 --> 01:16:46.600
book. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, thankfully that had,

01:16:46.659 --> 01:16:49.439
you know, in the book, he gets his leg chopped

01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:51.989
off in the movie. It's hit with a hammer. Yeah.

01:16:52.149 --> 01:16:54.470
But hit, I mean, which is almost more violent.

01:16:54.529 --> 01:16:56.590
Right. Like the way that it happens. Yes. And

01:16:56.590 --> 01:16:59.170
she's so nonchalant about it or whatever. She's

01:16:59.170 --> 01:17:01.710
just kind of like setting it up and he's so helpless.

01:17:01.829 --> 01:17:06.510
It was just incredible. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I

01:17:06.510 --> 01:17:09.590
guess this comes with the job, right? Yeah. Yeah.

01:17:09.649 --> 01:17:11.689
And it's, you know, it's a very small part of

01:17:11.689 --> 01:17:14.250
it. Yeah. It's a very small part of it. But when

01:17:14.250 --> 01:17:18.689
you finish a book. Is there an apprehension?

01:17:19.010 --> 01:17:21.289
What does it feel like when you're done? Do you

01:17:21.289 --> 01:17:25.130
feel done? How many times do you have to go over

01:17:25.130 --> 01:17:27.329
it after you're done with it? I feel like I ran

01:17:27.329 --> 01:17:30.470
out of time. I never feel like this couldn't

01:17:30.470 --> 01:17:32.810
be better. And I hate to say I'm a perfectionist

01:17:32.810 --> 01:17:34.210
because it sounds like you think you've done

01:17:34.210 --> 01:17:36.569
something perfect before, but I'm a perfectionist

01:17:36.569 --> 01:17:40.430
in the sense that it's never... at least this

01:17:40.430 --> 01:17:42.250
aspect of my life you know it's like it's it's

01:17:42.250 --> 01:17:45.229
never right it's never good enough and you just

01:17:45.229 --> 01:17:48.289
run out of time so I do go over it you know I'll

01:17:48.289 --> 01:17:50.350
turn a first draft into my editor it comes back

01:17:50.350 --> 01:17:53.149
to me I'll turn it you know he reads it and gives

01:17:53.149 --> 01:17:55.930
me his ideas and I'll do a second draft and then

01:17:56.350 --> 01:17:57.770
he'll read it again and then we'll go to a copy

01:17:57.770 --> 01:17:59.289
editor and I'll get it. And then we'll go to

01:17:59.289 --> 01:18:00.970
a pre -preter and I'll get it. And still there'll

01:18:00.970 --> 01:18:03.109
be some mistake and it makes it into the book,

01:18:03.149 --> 01:18:06.130
you know, at the end, a hundred last book, a

01:18:06.130 --> 01:18:09.729
burner is 165 ,000 words. So I always say like,

01:18:09.789 --> 01:18:12.090
yeah, in 160 ,000 words, there's probably five

01:18:12.090 --> 01:18:14.449
words I wish I could get a do over on, you know,

01:18:14.449 --> 01:18:16.649
when you finish your book, do you read it from

01:18:16.649 --> 01:18:20.149
the beginning to the end in the editing process?

01:18:20.369 --> 01:18:23.250
Yes. Um, but I mean like once it's turned in

01:18:23.250 --> 01:18:27.460
for the final, you know, like, Once I'm the last

01:18:27.460 --> 01:18:29.920
one that looks at it before a proofreader goes

01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:32.180
and like make or a copy editor goes and fixes

01:18:32.180 --> 01:18:34.399
the little things that I and I kind of a bad

01:18:34.399 --> 01:18:36.340
reputation at my publishing house for making

01:18:36.340 --> 01:18:39.560
a lot of changes at the end. I crammed 14 pages

01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:43.279
into into a Clancy book once after Tom had passed

01:18:43.279 --> 01:18:45.479
away and I was writing the Jack Ryan books like

01:18:45.479 --> 01:18:49.189
literally the last. go around. I was like, you

01:18:49.189 --> 01:18:50.729
know, I really feel it needs to be seen. And

01:18:50.729 --> 01:18:52.590
they came back to me and they're like, we've

01:18:52.590 --> 01:18:54.829
already measured the spine. And I was like, did

01:18:54.829 --> 01:18:57.829
not know that was a thing. But to their credit,

01:18:57.869 --> 01:19:02.100
they made changes and they got it in there. I

01:19:02.100 --> 01:19:04.319
never read the books again. I do listen to the

01:19:04.319 --> 01:19:06.319
audio books or at least part of the audio books

01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:08.579
because I think I have a good audio narrator.

01:19:08.920 --> 01:19:11.399
That gentleman, Ray, what is his name? Ray Porter

01:19:11.399 --> 01:19:14.020
is fantastic. This is Jay. Jay Snyder is the

01:19:14.020 --> 01:19:16.659
guy that does. Oh, the Tom Clancy books. No,

01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:20.899
the gray man is Jay Snyder. Ray Porter does Jack

01:19:20.899 --> 01:19:22.680
Carr. Oh, that's right. He does. That's right.

01:19:22.680 --> 01:19:25.119
He does Don Winslow and he does a lot of really,

01:19:25.159 --> 01:19:29.020
really cool. So Jay Porter. No. No, Jay Snyder.

01:19:29.039 --> 01:19:31.220
Jay Snyder. Jay Snyder's very good. Yeah. Ray

01:19:31.220 --> 01:19:33.140
Porter, Jay Snyder. Yeah. Yeah. They're both

01:19:33.140 --> 01:19:34.760
fantastic. They're both very good. Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:34.819 --> 01:19:36.819
And it's such a hard job to do the audio. I can't

01:19:36.819 --> 01:19:37.960
imagine. Because you have to do girl voices.

01:19:38.239 --> 01:19:40.060
Yeah. And then you have to do accents. And your

01:19:40.060 --> 01:19:42.960
books have a lot of accents. Sure. Yeah. Gosh,

01:19:43.199 --> 01:19:45.819
Ray Porter. And Jay Snyder's probably my favorite,

01:19:45.899 --> 01:19:47.720
but Ray Porter's right up there. He did the Don

01:19:47.720 --> 01:19:51.560
Winslow cartel series. Oh, I've never heard those.

01:19:51.779 --> 01:19:54.739
There's one called The Border. I think it's The

01:19:54.739 --> 01:19:58.420
Cartel, The Power of the Dog. It's three books.

01:19:58.520 --> 01:20:01.260
They're fantastic. And I've listened to the Ray

01:20:01.260 --> 01:20:04.100
Porter thing, and there's like six female Mexican.

01:20:05.020 --> 01:20:07.180
you know, women in the story and I could tell

01:20:07.180 --> 01:20:09.439
them all apart. And I'm like, how do you do that?

01:20:09.500 --> 01:20:12.699
I wonder if they do it. Like, do they, can they

01:20:12.699 --> 01:20:15.279
really go from character to character as they're

01:20:15.279 --> 01:20:17.359
doing it? Or do they have to like set up for

01:20:17.359 --> 01:20:19.520
each individual character and like practice the

01:20:19.520 --> 01:20:21.699
voice a little bit before they read the dialogue?

01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:24.159
Like, I wonder how they do that. I do too, because

01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:26.840
there must be some sort of cues to where they

01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:28.779
can, because, you know, sometimes in writing,

01:20:28.920 --> 01:20:31.539
you don't identify who's speaking until after

01:20:31.539 --> 01:20:34.909
the sentence or whatever. So somehow. they reverse

01:20:34.909 --> 01:20:38.210
engineer that to do an audio the worst at it

01:20:38.210 --> 01:20:41.960
unfortunately is stephen king He's the worst

01:20:41.960 --> 01:20:43.920
at reading his own books. Oh, he's done it already?

01:20:44.100 --> 01:20:47.079
They're terrible. Oh, no. It's terrible. Don't

01:20:47.079 --> 01:20:49.239
ever get an audio. I don't want to say this because

01:20:49.239 --> 01:20:51.439
I love Stephen King, but he's just not good at

01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:53.539
writing. He's great at writing, but when he reads

01:20:53.539 --> 01:20:56.039
it, it's like he's reading it. It's not like

01:20:56.039 --> 01:20:58.420
he's acting it. Yeah. Whereas like Ray Porter,

01:20:58.659 --> 01:21:01.319
it's like he's acting out or Jay Snyder. Yeah.

01:21:01.420 --> 01:21:03.920
I mean, if I'm Stephen King, I've got enough

01:21:03.920 --> 01:21:06.359
to do. I know. I don't understand why he did

01:21:06.359 --> 01:21:08.020
it. I would form that out to somebody else. I

01:21:08.020 --> 01:21:11.039
think he did The Gunslinger. He's done some of

01:21:11.039 --> 01:21:12.699
them, and I start listening to them. I'm like,

01:21:12.779 --> 01:21:14.460
I'm just going to read this. I can't do this.

01:21:14.579 --> 01:21:17.439
Oh, wow. Yeah. Like nonfiction books, a lot of

01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:21.039
times the narrator is the guy that wrote it.

01:21:21.060 --> 01:21:22.859
Yes. And it's really good. I love that. Did you

01:21:22.859 --> 01:21:26.800
read the Rob O 'Neill, the Navy SEAL guy? No,

01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:31.819
I didn't. Is it called The Operator? It's a Navy

01:21:31.819 --> 01:21:33.920
SEAL book, and he read it, and I was like. This

01:21:33.920 --> 01:21:36.319
guy could be a professional audiobook guy because

01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:39.079
there's an intensity to him and all that. It

01:21:39.079 --> 01:21:41.979
just totally worked for the story. That's great.

01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:44.460
Yeah, I love it when an author reads their own

01:21:44.460 --> 01:21:46.699
book, especially when it's someone who has done

01:21:46.699 --> 01:21:50.119
a lot of podcasts and knows how to communicate.

01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:52.960
He's already got a distinctive, recognizable

01:21:52.960 --> 01:21:55.979
voice like a Malcolm Gladwell or someone like

01:21:55.979 --> 01:21:58.159
that. I love when they read their own stuff.

01:21:58.460 --> 01:22:01.590
Yeah, same. Yeah. It's such a tricky world though.

01:22:01.689 --> 01:22:05.670
I mean, to hire a person to read your fiction

01:22:05.670 --> 01:22:08.989
audio book, like you got very lucky. Yeah. Having

01:22:08.989 --> 01:22:11.970
an amazing guy do it, but it's gotta be like

01:22:11.970 --> 01:22:15.399
a. Like to read someone, bring your characters

01:22:15.399 --> 01:22:18.039
to life. Like when you first heard the voice

01:22:18.039 --> 01:22:21.119
of the Gray Man, what did you think? So they

01:22:21.119 --> 01:22:24.640
did a tryout. I got to choose Jay Snyder, but

01:22:24.640 --> 01:22:27.699
I only got to choose between two audiobook narrators.

01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:30.659
And I actually liked them both. It was really

01:22:30.659 --> 01:22:34.779
cool. Last year I did... Audible original audio

01:22:34.779 --> 01:22:38.140
drama. So it's not a gray man story. This other

01:22:38.140 --> 01:22:40.699
book that I have called Armored. And I wrote

01:22:40.699 --> 01:22:43.520
an audio play. So they have sound effects and

01:22:43.520 --> 01:22:46.680
music and actual actors instead of narrators.

01:22:46.699 --> 01:22:50.039
Oh, wow. And it was like 600 pages, 618 pages

01:22:50.039 --> 01:22:53.619
for the five and a half hour, I think, audio

01:22:53.619 --> 01:22:57.300
play. And it was so fascinating to hear these

01:22:57.300 --> 01:22:59.180
things that you write, you know, like audio cue.

01:22:59.279 --> 01:23:04.279
It's like M249. going cyclic you know and this

01:23:04.279 --> 01:23:07.000
guy says this and this and that was that came

01:23:07.000 --> 01:23:09.699
out before the film too uh came out like six

01:23:09.699 --> 01:23:11.340
months before the movie came out and so that

01:23:11.340 --> 01:23:13.340
was the first time i like i heard actors like

01:23:13.340 --> 01:23:15.159
acting out something that i'd written and it

01:23:15.159 --> 01:23:18.359
was it was just mind -blowing that's a really

01:23:18.359 --> 01:23:21.199
interesting way to do it to have audio in it

01:23:21.199 --> 01:23:24.239
yeah like gunfire car screeching yeah it's like

01:23:24.239 --> 01:23:26.079
an old -time radio play if you think about it

01:23:26.079 --> 01:23:28.579
and i think it worked pretty well i ended up

01:23:28.579 --> 01:23:31.630
writing it as 150 ,000 word book so there's things

01:23:31.630 --> 01:23:33.729
in the book that aren't in the in the audio play

01:23:33.729 --> 01:23:37.210
but i think it's a fun way to spend five hours

01:23:37.210 --> 01:23:38.510
you know listening while you're doing something

01:23:38.510 --> 01:23:42.310
else well i really enjoy fiction um like i said

01:23:42.310 --> 01:23:45.270
it's specifically in the sauna when i'm suffering

01:23:45.270 --> 01:23:48.270
because it's just it's a nice escape i can just

01:23:48.270 --> 01:23:50.590
concentrate on the characters and just deal with

01:23:50.590 --> 01:23:54.350
the suffering yeah but it's um it's a such a

01:23:54.350 --> 01:23:59.550
unique way to uh express yourself to create these

01:24:00.679 --> 01:24:04.039
scenarios and scenes and things that just they're

01:24:04.039 --> 01:24:06.779
not real yeah you're making a world you're making

01:24:06.779 --> 01:24:10.420
like a whole little environment but with you

01:24:11.239 --> 01:24:15.239
this environment is a very specific genre so

01:24:15.239 --> 01:24:18.340
do you have to be careful of not like overusing

01:24:18.340 --> 01:24:22.760
tropes not reusing ideas not like and keeping

01:24:22.760 --> 01:24:26.720
it fresh like how do you stimulate your creativity

01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:30.100
in terms of like that one particular genre yeah

01:24:30.100 --> 01:24:32.699
you're exactly right the first few books you're

01:24:33.180 --> 01:24:35.340
pulling off the low -hanging fruit you have your

01:24:35.340 --> 01:24:37.460
whole life to think of these cool ideas and these

01:24:37.460 --> 01:24:40.420
interesting scenarios and then you you get a

01:24:40.420 --> 01:24:42.539
little bit more and a little bit more and then

01:24:42.539 --> 01:24:44.899
you get to a point where it's like okay i've

01:24:44.899 --> 01:24:48.260
i've taken all the parts off of the cars that

01:24:48.260 --> 01:24:51.060
i have in the back of my house you know and so

01:24:51.640 --> 01:24:54.199
But you just have to go out and get more information,

01:24:54.319 --> 01:24:56.800
go to go to other places. I think I've been to

01:24:56.800 --> 01:25:01.539
like 38 countries doing research and talk to

01:25:01.539 --> 01:25:03.699
a lot of people, read a lot and try and bring

01:25:03.699 --> 01:25:06.319
stuff in the macro level. I'm great. I've got

01:25:06.319 --> 01:25:09.779
ideas for 20 more books, probably the micro level.

01:25:09.859 --> 01:25:13.140
It's like, OK, this guy has got to get on a private

01:25:13.140 --> 01:25:16.010
jet and fly to Malta. It's like. OK, I've done

01:25:16.010 --> 01:25:18.289
that. How does he do it differently? Or this

01:25:18.289 --> 01:25:20.310
guy's following another guy down a street or,

01:25:20.350 --> 01:25:24.470
you know, this woman is, you know, going to kill

01:25:24.470 --> 01:25:27.930
her husband or whatever. It's like those things

01:25:27.930 --> 01:25:29.710
that you've done. And I used to joke. I'm like,

01:25:29.810 --> 01:25:32.310
you know, there's going to be a point where I'm

01:25:32.310 --> 01:25:34.390
going to be writing like a knife fight in a hot

01:25:34.390 --> 01:25:36.430
tub and go like, oh, this is my third knife fight

01:25:36.430 --> 01:25:37.930
in a hot tub. You know, it's like how many times

01:25:37.930 --> 01:25:39.710
can you get away with that? Do you feel like

01:25:39.710 --> 01:25:41.850
there's going to come a time where you can't

01:25:41.850 --> 01:25:45.939
like it strains credulity? to keep the gray man

01:25:45.939 --> 01:25:49.520
operational? I mean, look at James Bond. That's

01:25:49.520 --> 01:25:52.119
60 years, you know, and everybody's going like,

01:25:52.180 --> 01:25:55.520
how can you get excited in a book where you know

01:25:55.520 --> 01:25:59.260
the guy's going to win or survive? It's all superhero

01:25:59.260 --> 01:26:03.030
novels. Nobody goes to a James Bond film. thinking

01:26:03.030 --> 01:26:04.789
he's going to die eight minutes in and then that

01:26:04.789 --> 01:26:07.289
first you know sure and they go for other reasons

01:26:07.289 --> 01:26:09.869
and in my books there is other skin in the game

01:26:09.869 --> 01:26:11.729
like there's some big geopolitical thing that's

01:26:11.729 --> 01:26:13.949
really happening in the world a burner involves

01:26:13.949 --> 01:26:16.970
russia and ukraine um none of it takes place

01:26:16.970 --> 01:26:18.989
in ukraine it's not about the war but it's about

01:26:18.989 --> 01:26:22.010
russian foreign intelligence and um so i had

01:26:22.010 --> 01:26:23.930
to do a year ago when i was writing the book

01:26:23.930 --> 01:26:26.579
i had to really sort of prognosticate where we

01:26:26.579 --> 01:26:29.100
would be a year from now to get all that so it

01:26:29.100 --> 01:26:31.079
took a lot of work and a lot of research and

01:26:31.079 --> 01:26:37.369
it will there will be a time where you know America

01:26:37.369 --> 01:26:39.449
doesn't have that many peer enemies. You know,

01:26:39.510 --> 01:26:41.350
obviously there's China and there are near peer

01:26:41.350 --> 01:26:43.750
enemies, China and Russia and North Korea's nukes.

01:26:43.750 --> 01:26:47.850
Otherwise they would be on anybody's radar. So

01:26:47.850 --> 01:26:49.810
when I was doing the Clancy books, I was going

01:26:49.810 --> 01:26:52.569
like, all right, who's left? You know, we can't

01:26:52.569 --> 01:26:54.729
bring in people from outer space. You know, it's

01:26:54.729 --> 01:26:58.270
like, what are we going to do? But there's just

01:26:58.270 --> 01:27:00.310
there's different ways to skin a cat. But I mean,

01:27:00.329 --> 01:27:03.869
I think, yeah, ultimately. it's going to just

01:27:03.869 --> 01:27:06.810
get harder and harder to do. It's harder to write

01:27:06.810 --> 01:27:09.430
my 24th book than it was to write my fifth book.

01:27:09.710 --> 01:27:12.630
Really? Yeah, way, way, way harder. That's crazy

01:27:12.630 --> 01:27:15.390
because you've covered so much of the ground.

01:27:15.529 --> 01:27:17.449
Exactly. One of the things to me that's been

01:27:17.449 --> 01:27:19.430
interesting about your books is going from the

01:27:19.430 --> 01:27:23.329
original Gray Man to Sierra Six, where I'm at

01:27:23.329 --> 01:27:27.750
now, where you... You have to deal with the new

01:27:27.750 --> 01:27:30.229
technology and you have to deal with new surveillance

01:27:30.229 --> 01:27:32.409
technology. You have to deal with the internet.

01:27:32.550 --> 01:27:33.970
You have to deal with the fact that someone's

01:27:33.970 --> 01:27:36.789
going to be a known factor. Yeah. When you've

01:27:36.789 --> 01:27:38.550
got a guy like the gray man that's been involved

01:27:38.550 --> 01:27:41.069
in so many operations and so many different missions,

01:27:41.130 --> 01:27:44.760
like at a certain point in time. People are aware

01:27:44.760 --> 01:27:46.300
of him. They're going to be able to recognize

01:27:46.300 --> 01:27:49.699
him. Yeah. Yeah. If you if you look at it literally.

01:27:49.819 --> 01:27:52.100
But I'll go back to James Bond. He'd walk into

01:27:52.100 --> 01:27:54.159
a place and say, my name is James Bond or Bond,

01:27:54.239 --> 01:27:56.239
James Bond. I'm like, he actually uses real name.

01:27:56.340 --> 01:27:58.739
That's kind of funny. You know, it's like I'm

01:27:58.739 --> 01:28:02.140
an MI6 guy using my real name out there in the

01:28:02.140 --> 01:28:06.460
field. And yeah, you know, you just try and sell

01:28:06.460 --> 01:28:09.399
it as best you can. The Gray Man really hasn't

01:28:09.399 --> 01:28:11.840
aged in the past 10 years or so. He aged maybe

01:28:11.840 --> 01:28:13.680
in the first couple of books. But I didn't know

01:28:13.680 --> 01:28:15.880
it was going to be a series. I had no idea. And

01:28:15.880 --> 01:28:18.819
so there's Daniel Silva. I don't know if you've

01:28:18.819 --> 01:28:22.060
read him. He's a fantastic thriller author. He

01:28:22.060 --> 01:28:25.680
actually ages his character, Gabriel Alon, who's

01:28:25.680 --> 01:28:28.779
an Israeli former Mossad guy. And his books are

01:28:28.779 --> 01:28:32.359
fantastic. I mean, I look up to him very much.

01:28:32.640 --> 01:28:34.739
But that's not what I'm doing. I mean, my guy's

01:28:34.739 --> 01:28:36.359
going to need to be able to climb that fence.

01:28:36.579 --> 01:28:39.800
Right. jump off that scaffold and, you know,

01:28:39.800 --> 01:28:42.380
land on a tuk -tuk or something. You know, it's

01:28:42.380 --> 01:28:44.439
like that's not going to go away as long as I'm

01:28:44.439 --> 01:28:48.739
writing the series. So if each story on its own

01:28:48.739 --> 01:28:51.279
stands on its own and is fun and is exciting

01:28:51.279 --> 01:28:53.579
and has something, some kernel out of what's

01:28:53.579 --> 01:28:55.619
really going on in the world, hopefully to make

01:28:55.619 --> 01:28:59.399
it, you know, current, then I'm probably okay.

01:28:59.680 --> 01:29:01.960
As long as I can keep doing that. I don't ever

01:29:01.960 --> 01:29:05.079
want to phone it in. Like my career, my ambition

01:29:05.079 --> 01:29:07.649
isn't. anything other than writing a good book.

01:29:07.729 --> 01:29:09.329
And if I'm not writing a good book, you know,

01:29:09.350 --> 01:29:11.909
I will do something else. Do you feel like there's

01:29:11.909 --> 01:29:13.710
going to come a time when you have to come up

01:29:13.710 --> 01:29:19.310
with a new gray man? I have another series. It's

01:29:19.310 --> 01:29:21.630
Josh Duffy series, which is only one book right

01:29:21.630 --> 01:29:23.869
now, but I'm working on the other one today.

01:29:23.989 --> 01:29:27.590
So I like bouncing around, but you know, as far

01:29:27.590 --> 01:29:29.850
as exchanging the gray man out in a story, like

01:29:29.850 --> 01:29:32.359
someone. younger comes and takes a role probably

01:29:32.359 --> 01:29:34.640
not because i'm really not aging him you know

01:29:34.640 --> 01:29:39.060
it's like right i i mentally i'm going like all

01:29:39.060 --> 01:29:42.100
right so he'd be he'd probably be by this story

01:29:42.100 --> 01:29:44.399
he'd probably be about 46 now or something like

01:29:44.399 --> 01:29:46.239
that so he could still do a lot of the stuff

01:29:46.239 --> 01:29:48.079
and a lot of the stuff he couldn't do um yeah

01:29:48.079 --> 01:29:50.380
i remember you know when i wrote the first gray

01:29:50.380 --> 01:29:53.899
man like the the older guy Who, you know, was

01:29:53.899 --> 01:29:57.560
like his boss, Hanley, I think was like 44 or

01:29:57.560 --> 01:29:59.779
45 or something. I was like, yeah, it's this

01:29:59.779 --> 01:30:02.800
old fart, you know, and now I'm 55 and you're

01:30:02.800 --> 01:30:05.479
going like, God, what an asshole. But yeah, it's

01:30:05.479 --> 01:30:09.199
I think it's I think that the books are always

01:30:09.199 --> 01:30:11.640
going to sort of stand. On their own and stand

01:30:11.640 --> 01:30:14.420
alone like a Mac Bowman, like James Bond or something

01:30:14.420 --> 01:30:18.180
like that. And I want there to be story arcs

01:30:18.180 --> 01:30:20.640
and I want there to be psychology of interpersonal

01:30:20.640 --> 01:30:22.699
relationships and all these things in the story.

01:30:22.920 --> 01:30:26.819
But I'm not looking to make the reality, you

01:30:26.819 --> 01:30:28.920
know, and have anything to do with time. Right.

01:30:29.260 --> 01:30:31.199
That's tricky. Yeah, it is tricky. It's tricky

01:30:31.199 --> 01:30:32.600
when you're dealing with someone who's physical

01:30:32.600 --> 01:30:34.720
too, right? Yeah, yeah. That's the big issue.

01:30:40.729 --> 01:30:44.149
you know, in Iraq or something. And I'm like,

01:30:44.210 --> 01:30:49.010
yeah, yeah, I did. Wish I didn't. If you'd like

01:30:49.010 --> 01:30:50.890
to buy the new book, I'd love to sell it to you.

01:30:50.970 --> 01:30:53.659
But if not. Shuffle on. But you're going to have

01:30:53.659 --> 01:30:55.380
to forget about that part. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:30:55.800 --> 01:30:57.659
That's tricky. That's why I was saying, like,

01:30:57.739 --> 01:30:58.880
is there going to come a time where you have

01:30:58.880 --> 01:31:00.800
to phase them out? Yeah. Because, like, if you're

01:31:00.800 --> 01:31:02.800
doing these things in chronological order and

01:31:02.800 --> 01:31:04.560
we get to 10 years from now, you're dealing with

01:31:04.560 --> 01:31:07.439
a 58 -year -old gray man. Unless you're still

01:31:07.439 --> 01:31:09.960
saying he's 37. Right. And people are able to

01:31:09.960 --> 01:31:12.039
– they'll either buy it or they won't, you know.

01:31:12.140 --> 01:31:14.800
That's tricky. I mean, I guess James Bond would

01:31:14.800 --> 01:31:19.119
be about 150. because the first books came out

01:31:19.119 --> 01:31:22.380
in the late 50s. Right. That's interesting. I

01:31:22.380 --> 01:31:24.000
didn't think about it that way, right? But I

01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:25.579
think we're dealing with a totally different

01:31:25.579 --> 01:31:27.420
James Bond every time, just like we're dealing

01:31:27.420 --> 01:31:29.100
with a totally different Spider -Man. A few,

01:31:29.239 --> 01:31:32.220
yeah. I mean, that's true. That's true. They

01:31:32.220 --> 01:31:35.819
reboot. Yeah. And that was a thing that didn't

01:31:35.819 --> 01:31:37.579
used to happen, but now it happens and it works.

01:31:37.840 --> 01:31:39.819
Well, they've rebooted Spider -Man like five

01:31:39.819 --> 01:31:41.420
times. Yeah, I know. How many times? I don't

01:31:41.420 --> 01:31:42.720
know. How many Spider -Mans have there been?

01:31:42.760 --> 01:31:45.739
At least four, right? Yeah. Yeah. They're making

01:31:45.739 --> 01:31:47.920
a new one. Are they a new Spider -Man? Spider

01:31:47.920 --> 01:31:50.079
-Man Noir. It's like a TV show. It has nothing

01:31:50.079 --> 01:31:51.880
to do with this. It's been set in the 1930s.

01:31:52.300 --> 01:31:55.220
Oh, wow. My favorite was the animated one when

01:31:55.220 --> 01:31:57.779
they did the Spider -Verse. They just completely

01:31:57.779 --> 01:32:00.000
changed the world and made it a multiverse thing

01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:02.380
and had a young kid do it. It was great. Yeah,

01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:04.920
it's clever. I love that one because also with

01:32:04.920 --> 01:32:06.920
animation, you can get away with so much more.

01:32:07.399 --> 01:32:10.520
Physically, it makes sense. You can enjoy it.

01:32:10.560 --> 01:32:12.460
The suspension of disbelief is so much easier.

01:32:12.479 --> 01:32:13.899
Yeah, and you're not trying to look through the

01:32:13.899 --> 01:32:17.380
CGI and see if it's legit or not legit. Yeah,

01:32:17.380 --> 01:32:19.539
exactly. I saw an early version of the Gray Man

01:32:19.539 --> 01:32:24.710
film. And they hadn't finished all the CGI. And

01:32:24.710 --> 01:32:26.569
it was really, I mean, it was fascinating. I

01:32:26.569 --> 01:32:27.970
didn't know what I was looking at. Basically,

01:32:28.050 --> 01:32:30.409
it turns to like a cartoon for like a couple

01:32:30.409 --> 01:32:32.010
of seconds almost, you know, with the characters.

01:32:32.250 --> 01:32:34.930
And it's like that aha video take on me. Like

01:32:34.930 --> 01:32:37.210
it sort of looks like that to a degree. Just

01:32:37.210 --> 01:32:39.770
for like a second, you're like, what just happened?

01:32:40.189 --> 01:32:42.750
Yeah, the process of watching your work become

01:32:42.750 --> 01:32:46.390
a film has got to be very weird. Yeah, I wasn't

01:32:46.390 --> 01:32:49.029
closely involved with it. I went out and met

01:32:49.029 --> 01:32:50.869
the Russo brothers when they... We're going to

01:32:50.869 --> 01:32:52.710
write the script and spend a few days with them

01:32:52.710 --> 01:32:55.029
talking about the story and where the future

01:32:55.029 --> 01:32:56.409
story, because they wanted it to be a franchise

01:32:56.409 --> 01:32:59.750
from the beginning. But I wasn't involved in

01:32:59.750 --> 01:33:02.630
the day to day, but I was sent scripts. Joe sent

01:33:02.630 --> 01:33:05.930
me the script that he wrote. And then I saw the

01:33:05.930 --> 01:33:08.130
shooting script like right when they were shooting.

01:33:08.189 --> 01:33:11.170
So that was my involvement with it. And then

01:33:11.170 --> 01:33:13.609
I would be on Twitter and I'd see Ryan Gosling

01:33:13.609 --> 01:33:15.189
dressed up as a gray man on Twitter. You know,

01:33:15.189 --> 01:33:18.090
I didn't see it any way anybody else would have.

01:33:18.409 --> 01:33:21.270
I've seen it. Are they doing a series? Are they

01:33:21.270 --> 01:33:22.670
going to continue? They're doing a second one,

01:33:22.750 --> 01:33:24.729
yeah. Really? Interesting. And they're writing

01:33:24.729 --> 01:33:26.989
a spinoff series, which I know nothing about.

01:33:27.090 --> 01:33:30.409
But the guy who wrote Deadpool, Rhett Reese,

01:33:30.550 --> 01:33:31.890
I think it is. They're writing a spinoff based

01:33:31.890 --> 01:33:35.970
on who? Someone in the series. And I really don't

01:33:35.970 --> 01:33:38.210
know. I'm not being cagey. Really? Yeah. I just

01:33:38.210 --> 01:33:40.170
know that that's happening. That's even weirder.

01:33:40.229 --> 01:33:43.050
So now someone's like taking your world and it's

01:33:43.050 --> 01:33:44.850
almost like the Spider -Man thing. Yeah. I mean,

01:33:44.869 --> 01:33:46.609
it depends on what they do. If they take a character

01:33:46.609 --> 01:33:49.630
that like Zoya, who's this Russian, former Russian.

01:33:50.670 --> 01:33:52.029
foreign intelligence officer. I love that character.

01:33:52.210 --> 01:33:54.310
Thank you. Thanks. You know, if they did something

01:33:54.310 --> 01:33:55.909
with her, that would be cool. If they did something

01:33:55.909 --> 01:33:58.310
with Zach Hightower, who's kind of like his on

01:33:58.310 --> 01:34:00.890
and off again sidekick, you know, that would

01:34:00.890 --> 01:34:02.729
be cool, but I don't know what it is. But they

01:34:02.729 --> 01:34:05.949
are doing a sequel with Ryan Gosling in the role.

01:34:06.130 --> 01:34:07.970
Have they started that yet? They're writing the

01:34:07.970 --> 01:34:10.729
script, or Steve McFeely's writing the script,

01:34:10.770 --> 01:34:12.670
one of the screenwriters on Greyman. And is it

01:34:12.670 --> 01:34:14.899
based on any of your books? It's going to be

01:34:14.899 --> 01:34:18.100
based on one of the books. Which book? You don't

01:34:18.100 --> 01:34:20.439
want to tell? No, I don't know. I didn't ask

01:34:20.439 --> 01:34:22.840
permission. If you're allowed. I didn't ask permission.

01:34:23.560 --> 01:34:25.539
I get it. My whole point in coming here today

01:34:25.539 --> 01:34:27.840
was to walk out of here and not go, oh, my God,

01:34:27.939 --> 01:34:30.640
I can't believe I just said that. I think we're

01:34:30.640 --> 01:34:33.239
good so far. That was close. Well, you know,

01:34:33.300 --> 01:34:36.939
you did a good job. You navigated it. Is it a

01:34:36.939 --> 01:34:39.479
weird thing to watch someone change your script

01:34:39.479 --> 01:34:42.760
and to change the plot and change how the characters

01:34:42.760 --> 01:34:45.859
interact? It is really weird. I think I went

01:34:45.859 --> 01:34:48.939
into it with the right mindset that, you know,

01:34:48.960 --> 01:34:52.659
this was a film representation. And I know that

01:34:52.659 --> 01:34:54.560
the directors are like really creative people

01:34:54.560 --> 01:34:56.239
and the screenwriters and cinematographers and

01:34:56.239 --> 01:34:59.100
actors. And they don't look at it as their job

01:34:59.100 --> 01:35:00.899
that they're engineers that are going to take

01:35:00.899 --> 01:35:04.270
a piece of. paper and turn it into celluloid

01:35:04.270 --> 01:35:06.210
with everyone doing exactly the same thing. So

01:35:06.210 --> 01:35:08.810
I never expected that. There are places in there

01:35:08.810 --> 01:35:11.409
where I think I really like what they did. And

01:35:11.409 --> 01:35:13.810
there's places in there where it's like, I think

01:35:13.810 --> 01:35:17.069
my line landed a little bit better. And that

01:35:17.069 --> 01:35:19.789
actually made me happy. I wasn't mad that they

01:35:19.789 --> 01:35:22.569
didn't do it my way. It's more like, OK, I think

01:35:22.569 --> 01:35:25.130
I have something to offer still instead of all

01:35:25.130 --> 01:35:27.430
these big shots with all this money come and

01:35:27.430 --> 01:35:30.989
make something so like. vastly superior to the

01:35:30.989 --> 01:35:33.170
little paperback that I wrote. I think there's

01:35:33.170 --> 01:35:36.010
places where my stuff holds up and there's stuff

01:35:36.010 --> 01:35:38.310
in there that I think is fantastic too. But it

01:35:38.310 --> 01:35:40.869
is really strange. The toughest thing is the

01:35:40.869 --> 01:35:43.829
complaints from fans that aren't happy because

01:35:43.829 --> 01:35:46.329
of the changes. So people just pigeonhole me

01:35:46.329 --> 01:35:48.390
all the time at a conference or something and

01:35:48.390 --> 01:35:50.770
they'll be like, in the movie they did this and

01:35:50.770 --> 01:35:53.189
in the book they did this. And I was like, yeah,

01:35:53.250 --> 01:35:55.810
I wrote the book and I saw the movie. So this

01:35:55.810 --> 01:35:57.409
whole interaction is like, I don't know what

01:35:57.409 --> 01:36:00.739
to tell you. I can't speak for them. And people

01:36:00.739 --> 01:36:03.399
will email me and they're like, you've screwed

01:36:03.399 --> 01:36:05.340
up. You gave it away. You know, it was all for

01:36:05.340 --> 01:36:07.199
the money or whatever. And you're like, I didn't

01:36:07.199 --> 01:36:09.119
have any creative control. I'm not Stephen King

01:36:09.119 --> 01:36:11.279
or John Grosham or one of these guys. You know,

01:36:11.279 --> 01:36:13.460
I had this little paperback that I got a little

01:36:13.460 --> 01:36:17.840
bit of money advanced to put out and they offered.

01:36:18.439 --> 01:36:20.819
you know, to option it into Hollywood. And my

01:36:20.819 --> 01:36:22.840
answer was yes. It wasn't like, let me look at

01:36:22.840 --> 01:36:25.119
page 94 of the contract where I'm going to come

01:36:25.119 --> 01:36:27.020
back and say, I want creative control and I want

01:36:27.020 --> 01:36:28.340
to play the gray man in the movie or whatever.

01:36:28.439 --> 01:36:30.460
It's like, that's how you don't get a movie made.

01:36:30.560 --> 01:36:33.300
Well, Stephen King famously didn't like The Shining.

01:36:33.550 --> 01:36:36.510
Which is wild, right? Because it's Stanley Kubrick

01:36:36.510 --> 01:36:39.630
and it's Jack Nicholson and it's an amazing movie.

01:36:39.989 --> 01:36:42.829
But the movie was very different than his book.

01:36:42.970 --> 01:36:47.069
In his book, the character, Jack, it takes a

01:36:47.069 --> 01:36:50.050
long time before he goes crazy. And he starts

01:36:50.050 --> 01:36:52.890
out sane. He starts out just a troubled former

01:36:52.890 --> 01:36:54.930
alcoholic who's trying to get his life together

01:36:54.930 --> 01:36:57.310
and do right by his family. And he gets this

01:36:57.310 --> 01:37:00.010
opportunity to look over this hotel and he's

01:37:00.010 --> 01:37:01.590
going to write this book. And then along the

01:37:01.590 --> 01:37:03.630
way, he goes nuts. That's the difference between

01:37:03.630 --> 01:37:07.390
a book and a movie. I like that added stuff.

01:37:07.750 --> 01:37:10.390
I think Tom Clancy didn't like Harrison Ford

01:37:10.390 --> 01:37:15.270
in the Jack Ryan films. I think it was just an

01:37:15.270 --> 01:37:17.829
age thing because in his head he was pretty literal

01:37:17.829 --> 01:37:21.550
about at this stage when I wrote this book, he's

01:37:21.550 --> 01:37:25.710
a young CIA analyst or whatever and I think Harrison

01:37:25.710 --> 01:37:28.289
Ford was older. I'm not 100 % sure about that.

01:37:29.960 --> 01:37:33.359
I do know that – I've read places. Tom never

01:37:33.359 --> 01:37:36.600
told me this, but that he wasn't a big fan of

01:37:36.600 --> 01:37:38.359
those, and I think those are the best ones. I

01:37:38.359 --> 01:37:39.560
don't know. Red October was good. I never saw

01:37:39.560 --> 01:37:42.920
any of his – what ones were his – Patriot Games,

01:37:43.180 --> 01:37:45.699
Clear and Present Danger. And those were all

01:37:45.699 --> 01:37:48.760
Harrison Ford? Yeah, yeah. No kidding. Yeah,

01:37:48.779 --> 01:37:51.060
yeah. And I think he did a good – they did a

01:37:51.060 --> 01:37:53.119
great job. Alec Baldwin was great in Red October.

01:37:53.500 --> 01:37:56.460
Yeah. Too bad he didn't stick with it. I forgot

01:37:56.460 --> 01:37:59.789
about Red October. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot about

01:37:59.789 --> 01:38:02.310
Patriot Games, too. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's so

01:38:02.310 --> 01:38:06.470
interesting when you get a known commodity, like

01:38:06.470 --> 01:38:09.369
a famous celebrity that comes in and takes over

01:38:09.369 --> 01:38:14.489
a role that you've created. Yeah. Yeah, I was

01:38:14.489 --> 01:38:19.069
happy with Ryan Gosling. As I described the gray

01:38:19.069 --> 01:38:22.449
man, the look is pretty similar. And he didn't

01:38:22.449 --> 01:38:25.369
overbake it. I feel like the scenes with the

01:38:25.369 --> 01:38:29.189
girl. that he's protecting could have turned

01:38:29.189 --> 01:38:31.689
schmaltzy and cheesy and they didn't. And I like

01:38:31.689 --> 01:38:34.229
that in my book, I like it a little bit better

01:38:34.229 --> 01:38:37.489
because the, the girl actually has some agency

01:38:37.489 --> 01:38:40.829
in her own rescue. She does some things to help

01:38:40.829 --> 01:38:42.390
herself. Whereas this one, she's just sort of

01:38:42.390 --> 01:38:45.890
like protected, you know, by, by Gentry. I mean,

01:38:45.890 --> 01:38:48.550
she, she kind of saves the day to some degree

01:38:48.550 --> 01:38:52.329
too. You know, you can pick little things. The

01:38:52.329 --> 01:38:55.729
very first scene in the movie. Billy Bob Thornton

01:38:55.729 --> 01:38:58.050
is a CIA guy sitting in a prison with a dude

01:38:58.050 --> 01:39:01.050
saying, here's the name of our secret CIA program

01:39:01.050 --> 01:39:03.010
and here's what it does. Would you like to join?

01:39:03.750 --> 01:39:05.970
That's how that works. You know, and there's

01:39:05.970 --> 01:39:08.329
the funniest part was that there's a scene, a

01:39:08.329 --> 01:39:10.590
big action scene in Prague. It takes place in

01:39:10.590 --> 01:39:14.319
Prague and Gray Man is handcuffed to a. to a

01:39:14.319 --> 01:39:17.000
bench and he's shooting bad guys and he can't

01:39:17.000 --> 01:39:19.340
get away. And there's cops and dead cops around

01:39:19.340 --> 01:39:21.380
him. And then the bad guys, Chris Evans sending

01:39:21.380 --> 01:39:23.619
the bad guys in from all directions. And at one

01:39:23.619 --> 01:39:25.520
point he reaches over to this cop and pulls a

01:39:25.520 --> 01:39:27.479
frag grenade off the guy's utility belt. And

01:39:27.479 --> 01:39:30.800
I'm like, the cops in Prague carry frags. That's

01:39:30.800 --> 01:39:35.000
some hardcore cops. He throws it, blows something

01:39:35.000 --> 01:39:36.779
up. And I'm like, but it works in the movie.

01:39:36.840 --> 01:39:38.060
You know, it's like nobody's spending that much

01:39:38.060 --> 01:39:39.699
time looking at it unless you're the idiot that

01:39:39.699 --> 01:39:42.159
wrote it. Well, that is the problem because you're

01:39:42.159 --> 01:39:44.600
the guy writing. Exactly, exactly. That's why

01:39:44.600 --> 01:39:47.840
it's got to be weird, I would imagine. Do you

01:39:47.840 --> 01:39:53.220
have any ambitions to completely change genres,

01:39:53.300 --> 01:39:55.779
to do something that's outside of the realm of

01:39:55.779 --> 01:39:58.380
success that you found yourself in? Yeah, I've

01:39:58.380 --> 01:40:00.760
been asked that a lot, and I do have a bunch

01:40:00.760 --> 01:40:03.760
of ideas for books. They're mostly in the genre.

01:40:03.920 --> 01:40:06.920
There's some stuff that are a little bit pushing

01:40:06.920 --> 01:40:10.770
away. There's kind of a romantic suspense. story

01:40:10.770 --> 01:40:15.310
but it involves CIA that I'm working on working

01:40:15.310 --> 01:40:18.850
on it slowly amidst other things and just kind

01:40:18.850 --> 01:40:20.949
of like plotting out and someday I'm like someday

01:40:20.949 --> 01:40:23.350
I'm going to write this book you know and but

01:40:23.350 --> 01:40:28.729
it's still it's still a thriller it's still sort

01:40:28.729 --> 01:40:31.649
of brushes against espionage but it's it's more

01:40:31.649 --> 01:40:34.729
it's got like a romance angle that my stuff doesn't

01:40:34.729 --> 01:40:37.409
really have is that what you've always gravitated

01:40:37.409 --> 01:40:39.810
towards like what you consume the kind of books

01:40:39.810 --> 01:40:42.170
you read no i mean the kind of books i read are

01:40:42.170 --> 01:40:44.329
the kind of books i write and i i wrote a military

01:40:44.329 --> 01:40:46.350
thriller co -authored a military thriller in

01:40:46.350 --> 01:40:49.470
2019 called red metal with an then active duty

01:40:49.470 --> 01:40:52.069
marine lieutenant colonel um a good friend of

01:40:52.069 --> 01:40:55.979
mine rip rawlings and uh Because I always, even

01:40:55.979 --> 01:40:58.140
though I wasn't in the military, Tom Clancy wasn't

01:40:58.140 --> 01:40:59.899
in the military. It's like I always thought that

01:40:59.899 --> 01:41:03.380
I had one of those in me, like a big military

01:41:03.380 --> 01:41:06.180
thriller, like an old Tom Clancy one. And so

01:41:06.180 --> 01:41:08.619
I wanted to do it forever. And I met Rip at the

01:41:08.619 --> 01:41:10.539
Pentagon when I was researching a Clancy book.

01:41:10.720 --> 01:41:12.720
And he wanted to be a writer. He was a writer,

01:41:12.739 --> 01:41:15.020
but he hadn't been published. And he and I became

01:41:15.020 --> 01:41:16.939
friends. And for like four years, we would just

01:41:16.939 --> 01:41:19.340
bounce ideas off each other. And one day I just

01:41:19.340 --> 01:41:22.000
said, hey, Rip, I think I could go to my. editor

01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:24.600
or my agent and i can get us a book deal if you

01:41:24.600 --> 01:41:26.180
want to do this together so we did and we went

01:41:26.180 --> 01:41:28.920
he and i went to poland and to germany and to

01:41:28.920 --> 01:41:31.760
um he went to france and we went to nellis air

01:41:31.760 --> 01:41:34.699
force base and we did research and research and

01:41:34.699 --> 01:41:36.720
this book came out in 2019 it was like russia

01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:39.420
war with nato and it did really well it hit the

01:41:39.420 --> 01:41:42.779
times list and we're doing a sequel um but the

01:41:42.779 --> 01:41:45.659
idea was i wanted to do something that was a

01:41:45.659 --> 01:41:48.270
little bit out of the spite novel thing this

01:41:48.270 --> 01:41:51.369
is big troop movements and uh you know aircraft

01:41:51.369 --> 01:41:53.590
and all this stuff and i wanted to write something

01:41:53.590 --> 01:41:55.810
big like that and i did it and i was really happy

01:41:55.810 --> 01:41:57.869
with the experience it was a ton of work but

01:41:57.869 --> 01:42:00.949
it was also really fulfilling so i'm i i made

01:42:02.029 --> 01:42:05.430
Get a little bit afield in what I write. It's

01:42:05.430 --> 01:42:07.409
not always going to be like the assassin walking

01:42:07.409 --> 01:42:10.550
down the street chasing a guy. But I probably

01:42:10.550 --> 01:42:12.090
won't go that wide. I'm not going to be writing

01:42:12.090 --> 01:42:14.770
a Bollywood script or anything like that. Do

01:42:14.770 --> 01:42:19.350
you have time in between books where you just

01:42:19.350 --> 01:42:23.989
read or just research and just try to like? to

01:42:23.989 --> 01:42:28.609
fuel your creativity? Yeah, I didn't, but now

01:42:28.609 --> 01:42:31.350
I realize how important it is. And so last year

01:42:31.350 --> 01:42:34.449
I had two books come out and the film came out.

01:42:34.510 --> 01:42:36.470
So I had all these things that didn't involve

01:42:36.470 --> 01:42:39.229
writing a book. And I wrote Burner, which I went

01:42:39.229 --> 01:42:41.510
to several countries to research and took probably

01:42:41.510 --> 01:42:43.609
eight months to write the book. And I was supposed

01:42:43.609 --> 01:42:45.729
to write something else last year. And both my

01:42:45.729 --> 01:42:48.149
agent and my editor, who are both great guys,

01:42:48.289 --> 01:42:51.000
they both said. Why don't you just take the rest

01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:53.380
of the year off? Because you've really been burning

01:42:53.380 --> 01:42:57.060
the candle at both ends and and start fresh next

01:42:57.060 --> 01:43:00.279
year. And so it was hard, you know, to get up

01:43:00.279 --> 01:43:02.640
one day and not feel like you have to be on your

01:43:02.640 --> 01:43:05.159
laptop in four minutes, you know. But but I use

01:43:05.159 --> 01:43:07.699
that time to kind of come up with this year's

01:43:07.699 --> 01:43:10.250
book to where I have it. pretty more fleshed

01:43:10.250 --> 01:43:13.050
out outline than I usually do significantly more

01:43:13.050 --> 01:43:16.170
but yeah it was just it was just days of like

01:43:16.170 --> 01:43:18.390
going to the park or working out and have a little

01:43:18.390 --> 01:43:21.750
home gym and and listening to podcasts about

01:43:21.750 --> 01:43:24.220
stuff that would be you know in in the next book

01:43:24.220 --> 01:43:28.640
or reading stuff and um slowly taking notes and

01:43:28.640 --> 01:43:31.119
i i don't really have the luxury of doing that

01:43:31.119 --> 01:43:33.859
every time and when i finish the new gray man

01:43:33.859 --> 01:43:36.060
book i've got to get right into the second armored

01:43:36.060 --> 01:43:37.840
book which is the one that will come out next

01:43:37.840 --> 01:43:41.640
year and i better have a plot i have to figure

01:43:41.640 --> 01:43:43.760
it out on the plane you know you know as i'm

01:43:43.760 --> 01:43:45.920
on book tour or something is that good to have

01:43:45.920 --> 01:43:48.960
that kind of pressure If I didn't have it, I'd

01:43:48.960 --> 01:43:51.140
probably still be writing my second book, honestly.

01:43:51.899 --> 01:43:58.220
I hate it, but I need it. I've never been able

01:43:58.220 --> 01:44:00.359
to straighten out my work -life balance the way

01:44:00.359 --> 01:44:05.380
I would like to. I'm insecure as a writer, so

01:44:05.380 --> 01:44:09.140
I hate what I'm doing 95 % of the way through

01:44:09.140 --> 01:44:13.220
it. And then tweak, tweak, tweak. My wife could

01:44:13.220 --> 01:44:16.500
tell you the last couple years. You know, it's

01:44:16.500 --> 01:44:18.840
like I hate the book in July and then beginning

01:44:18.840 --> 01:44:21.119
of August, I'm like, well, I mean, there's something

01:44:21.119 --> 01:44:22.880
in there. There is a heart to this thing. I just

01:44:22.880 --> 01:44:24.859
got a lot of mistakes. And then by the end of

01:44:24.859 --> 01:44:26.340
August, you know, it's kind of like, all right,

01:44:26.359 --> 01:44:28.979
I think this one's actually OK. And then. By

01:44:28.979 --> 01:44:30.300
the time it comes out, it's like, all right,

01:44:30.340 --> 01:44:32.760
this is done. It's as good as I can make it.

01:44:32.819 --> 01:44:35.279
I'm proud of it. Let's get it out. I think that

01:44:35.279 --> 01:44:38.960
feeling of never having a good balance is like

01:44:38.960 --> 01:44:41.800
part of the creative process. Yeah. I've never

01:44:41.800 --> 01:44:44.260
met anybody who does great work who's like really

01:44:44.260 --> 01:44:46.340
happy with the whole process. Yeah, but it's

01:44:46.340 --> 01:44:49.119
fun to fantasize about just like getting up in

01:44:49.119 --> 01:44:50.699
the morning with a big smile on your face and

01:44:50.699 --> 01:44:53.100
going like, man, I'm kicking ass. Right. It's

01:44:53.100 --> 01:44:55.319
always like I'm just flailing. Yeah, I have really

01:44:55.319 --> 01:44:57.140
bad imposter syndrome and I always have and I

01:44:57.140 --> 01:45:00.270
guess I always will. And so, you know, it's this

01:45:00.270 --> 01:45:02.170
whole like I hope they don't find me out. I'm

01:45:02.170 --> 01:45:03.649
glad you said that because I think everybody

01:45:03.649 --> 01:45:06.029
who's good has imposter syndrome. I've talked

01:45:06.029 --> 01:45:08.409
to great comics. I've talked to great musicians.

01:45:08.449 --> 01:45:11.630
I've talked to great writers. And almost all

01:45:11.630 --> 01:45:13.850
of them have this thing like, oh, they're going

01:45:13.850 --> 01:45:16.649
to find me out. Yeah, exactly. You're like, why

01:45:16.649 --> 01:45:22.050
am I here? Right. And I've even – I used to have

01:45:22.050 --> 01:45:26.119
really, really bad social anxiety. when I was

01:45:26.119 --> 01:45:27.720
trying to get published, like I literally had

01:45:27.720 --> 01:45:29.920
appointments to talk to agents and I never left

01:45:29.920 --> 01:45:31.560
my hotel room cause I just chickened out, you

01:45:31.560 --> 01:45:34.439
know, and that happened. And then, so once I

01:45:34.439 --> 01:45:36.159
got published, it was still sort of like this,

01:45:36.220 --> 01:45:38.840
I don't belong here thing. And, um, and now,

01:45:38.939 --> 01:45:41.489
you know, like. When I first was asked to write

01:45:41.489 --> 01:45:43.350
with Clancy, I was like, oh, my God, why are

01:45:43.350 --> 01:45:47.430
they asking me this? It's like, oh, crap. It's

01:45:47.430 --> 01:45:50.630
like, how do I get out of this? Especially Clancy,

01:45:50.649 --> 01:45:51.710
right? Yeah, exactly. Because you're such a huge

01:45:51.710 --> 01:45:53.930
fan. Yeah, and I was like, can't I go to the

01:45:53.930 --> 01:45:56.390
next level above me and not way up there? That's

01:45:56.390 --> 01:45:59.510
scary up there. But then I was – after we did

01:45:59.510 --> 01:46:01.750
three – he passed away right after we – I mean,

01:46:01.789 --> 01:46:04.170
days after we finished the third book together.

01:46:04.630 --> 01:46:08.439
And then his family asked me to – continue the

01:46:08.439 --> 01:46:10.380
Jack Ryan series. And if they'd asked anybody

01:46:10.380 --> 01:46:12.079
else, I'd have been really upset. Like by then

01:46:12.079 --> 01:46:14.779
I felt like I was the right guy for the job.

01:46:14.779 --> 01:46:16.239
And it was the first time in my career I felt

01:46:16.239 --> 01:46:18.420
like I was, you know, I was like, why are they

01:46:18.420 --> 01:46:20.680
letting me write for a living? I get to go to

01:46:20.680 --> 01:46:23.079
other countries and talk to people and then write

01:46:23.079 --> 01:46:25.100
fun stuff about shit blowing up. You know, it's

01:46:25.100 --> 01:46:27.600
like, how cool is this? And it took me a few

01:46:27.600 --> 01:46:30.079
years to where it's like, okay, there's something

01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:32.279
I bring to the table here. Oh, you most certainly

01:46:32.279 --> 01:46:35.399
do. Yeah, that's great. I'm really proud of you,

01:46:35.500 --> 01:46:37.140
for you. Thank you. If I was your friend, I'd

01:46:37.140 --> 01:46:39.060
be proud of you. Let's be friends. Let's be friends.

01:46:39.359 --> 01:46:42.000
But I think that's an amazing story, to go from

01:46:42.000 --> 01:46:44.920
a guy who's a giant Tom Clancy fan to be writing

01:46:44.920 --> 01:46:47.600
those novels. Yeah. That's amazing. It's great.

01:46:47.600 --> 01:46:51.859
And to know the language and to know the characters

01:46:51.859 --> 01:46:54.619
and to keep it true to the original work. Yeah,

01:46:54.640 --> 01:46:56.699
so I'd only had a couple of paperback books out

01:46:56.699 --> 01:46:58.920
when they asked me if I was interested in being

01:46:58.920 --> 01:47:01.199
his co -author, but we had the same editor. Did

01:47:01.199 --> 01:47:03.739
he know your work? Was he a fan of your work?

01:47:03.899 --> 01:47:06.579
I don't know. I mean, I think ultimately, yes.

01:47:06.659 --> 01:47:08.720
I mean, like we met. But when they first reached

01:47:08.720 --> 01:47:11.340
out to me, it wasn't a job offer. It was more

01:47:11.340 --> 01:47:13.199
like, would you be interested? Do you want us

01:47:13.199 --> 01:47:16.180
to put your hat in the ring for this? And there

01:47:16.180 --> 01:47:18.800
was this kind of back and forth where no decisions

01:47:18.800 --> 01:47:21.579
were being made. And as scared as I was at first,

01:47:21.680 --> 01:47:23.659
I also knew enough about the publishing world

01:47:23.659 --> 01:47:25.920
to know that that book was going to be due whenever

01:47:25.920 --> 01:47:28.220
I started writing it, that the due date wasn't

01:47:28.220 --> 01:47:30.619
going to change. So it's like beginning of February

01:47:30.619 --> 01:47:33.439
2011, they asked me if I was interested. End

01:47:33.439 --> 01:47:35.560
of February, I still didn't have it, the job.

01:47:36.000 --> 01:47:38.119
And we're into March, and I still didn't have

01:47:38.119 --> 01:47:41.180
the job. And I was like, I bet this book is due

01:47:41.180 --> 01:47:42.979
on a certain date no matter what. So finally

01:47:42.979 --> 01:47:45.640
I said, listen, I am. I'm a huge Clancy fan.

01:47:45.819 --> 01:47:47.500
I know these characters. I know these people.

01:47:47.920 --> 01:47:51.960
Let me write 50 pages as if I was writing a Tom

01:47:51.960 --> 01:47:54.460
Clancy novel and do that as a tryout. And so

01:47:54.460 --> 01:47:55.960
I don't think anybody else did that. And so I

01:47:55.960 --> 01:47:58.399
just wrote 50 pages like in the middle of a book

01:47:58.399 --> 01:47:59.920
that never existed. You know, it was just like

01:47:59.920 --> 01:48:01.899
I didn't worry about plot. And I was just like,

01:48:01.939 --> 01:48:05.899
there's a scene. I gave them that, and then they

01:48:05.899 --> 01:48:07.479
had me go up to Baltimore and meet Tom, and then

01:48:07.479 --> 01:48:10.960
I had the job. Wow. It was amazing. I was terrified

01:48:10.960 --> 01:48:13.880
to meet Clancy. Why did they want someone to

01:48:13.880 --> 01:48:17.720
collaborate with Tom? Do I even know the answer?

01:48:17.779 --> 01:48:20.180
I really don't know the answer to that. It happens

01:48:20.180 --> 01:48:26.319
with authors as they get older. I mean, I already

01:48:26.319 --> 01:48:28.420
don't have the focus. We were talking earlier.

01:48:28.720 --> 01:48:31.579
It's like I used to be able to write. 6, 8, 10,

01:48:31.619 --> 01:48:34.609
12 hours. Do you take any nootropics? I don't

01:48:34.609 --> 01:48:37.350
know what that is. Really? Interesting. I'll

01:48:37.350 --> 01:48:38.789
get you some. Do you have any? Yeah, I do. Oh,

01:48:38.789 --> 01:48:39.930
I was kidding. I do have some. I was kidding.

01:48:40.229 --> 01:48:42.310
I have some right here. Can we take it on camera

01:48:42.310 --> 01:48:43.710
and see what happens? Yeah. See if I get more

01:48:43.710 --> 01:48:45.670
interesting? It'll take a few hours for this

01:48:45.670 --> 01:48:49.470
to kick in. This is AlphaBrain Black Label. This

01:48:49.470 --> 01:48:51.810
is my favorite. But I take a bunch of different

01:48:51.810 --> 01:48:54.909
nootropics. What they are is essentially building

01:48:54.909 --> 01:48:57.289
blocks for human neurotransmitters. It's just

01:48:57.289 --> 01:49:01.149
nutrients. Okay. Take six. Is it legal in all

01:49:01.149 --> 01:49:03.430
50 states? Yes. All right. 100 % legal. You buy

01:49:03.430 --> 01:49:06.100
it on - Here, take six of these. Thanks, man.

01:49:06.300 --> 01:49:07.979
There you go. I appreciate it. I'll take them,

01:49:08.000 --> 01:49:09.939
too, so you know I'm not poisoning you. You take

01:49:09.939 --> 01:49:12.800
all six? Yeah, I take all six. Seriously? Yeah,

01:49:12.859 --> 01:49:14.500
it's not going to mess with you. All right, here

01:49:14.500 --> 01:49:19.479
we go. Here we go. But I take a bunch of different

01:49:19.479 --> 01:49:21.060
ones. They started taking a new one that they

01:49:21.060 --> 01:49:23.899
sent me called Magic Mind, and it's nootropics

01:49:23.899 --> 01:49:29.170
along with... lion's mane, and a bunch of functional

01:49:29.170 --> 01:49:31.729
mushrooms. Wow. And I like that one, too. There's

01:49:31.729 --> 01:49:34.189
another one. I got found out about nootropics

01:49:34.189 --> 01:49:38.350
because of Bill Romanosky. He was a former football

01:49:38.350 --> 01:49:40.850
player, great football player, and developed

01:49:40.850 --> 01:49:45.609
some, obviously, some... neural issues post concussions

01:49:45.609 --> 01:49:47.670
and impacts and stuff like that so we created

01:49:47.670 --> 01:49:50.010
something called neuro one and i really like

01:49:50.010 --> 01:49:52.890
that i started taking neuro one because uh there

01:49:52.890 --> 01:49:57.470
was a show called uh allison no name um is that

01:49:57.470 --> 01:50:03.069
allison oil it was on san francisco it was the

01:50:03.069 --> 01:50:05.949
morning radio show and there was a the dude they

01:50:05.949 --> 01:50:10.560
would call him no name um and his um His trainer

01:50:10.560 --> 01:50:12.359
was Bill Romanowski, and Bill Romanowski got

01:50:12.359 --> 01:50:14.180
him on this stuff. This was quite a few years

01:50:14.180 --> 01:50:16.680
ago. And I go, what is it? And he's like, it's

01:50:16.680 --> 01:50:19.539
nutrients that help you think better. I was like,

01:50:19.619 --> 01:50:22.399
well, what do you do? And he gave me some. And

01:50:22.399 --> 01:50:24.939
I started taking them. It's interesting. It helps

01:50:24.939 --> 01:50:28.060
you form sentences better. It helps your verbal

01:50:28.060 --> 01:50:32.000
memory. And that's one of the things we've done

01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:34.439
with AlphaBrain. because this is a company that

01:50:34.439 --> 01:50:39.000
I owned, we sent a bunch of it and we funded

01:50:39.000 --> 01:50:41.340
two double -blind placebo -controlled studies

01:50:41.340 --> 01:50:44.000
at the Boston Center for Memory. And they showed

01:50:44.000 --> 01:50:48.000
increase in verbal memory, increase in reaction

01:50:48.000 --> 01:50:52.380
time, increase in peak alpha flow state. So it's...

01:50:52.779 --> 01:50:56.619
It enhances your ability to think. And that's

01:50:56.619 --> 01:50:58.000
the thing. It's not going to make you smarter.

01:50:58.420 --> 01:51:01.520
But what it does is it provides your brain with

01:51:01.520 --> 01:51:03.800
the nutrients it needs to function at its best.

01:51:03.859 --> 01:51:08.479
There is nothing I need more. Last year I was

01:51:08.479 --> 01:51:10.159
worrying that I was having some kind of cognitive

01:51:10.159 --> 01:51:12.220
decline because I was forgetting things. And

01:51:12.220 --> 01:51:14.760
it's like, wait, did I just do that or was I

01:51:14.760 --> 01:51:16.720
about to do that? And I think it was because

01:51:16.720 --> 01:51:19.779
I was just really overloaded, just busy and family

01:51:19.779 --> 01:51:21.720
and stuff. And, you know, it's like going from.

01:51:22.279 --> 01:51:25.380
no two dogs and no family to three step kids

01:51:25.380 --> 01:51:28.119
and four dogs and um you know the movie's out

01:51:28.119 --> 01:51:30.159
and two book came out and i had to write a book

01:51:30.159 --> 01:51:33.920
and i just really felt like like something was

01:51:33.920 --> 01:51:37.399
going on in my head and yeah and once i turned

01:51:37.399 --> 01:51:39.020
that book in and took a couple months off or

01:51:39.020 --> 01:51:42.039
whatever and things have Recharge. Recharge to

01:51:42.039 --> 01:51:44.680
some degree. But as you get older, you need that.

01:51:44.739 --> 01:51:47.239
Well, there's also a thing with the vitality

01:51:47.239 --> 01:51:50.220
of your body. Like the more vitality you have,

01:51:50.300 --> 01:51:53.319
the more robust your body is, the more you can

01:51:53.319 --> 01:51:55.560
function at a high energy level for longer periods

01:51:55.560 --> 01:51:57.899
of time, which is I think cardio is very important

01:51:57.899 --> 01:52:00.500
for anybody who's creative. I mean there's a

01:52:00.500 --> 01:52:02.380
lot of like brilliant creative people that never

01:52:02.380 --> 01:52:05.479
work out ever. And 100 % you can do it. I know

01:52:05.479 --> 01:52:07.920
some brilliant comedians and writers and all

01:52:07.920 --> 01:52:09.850
they do is they force themselves to sit. down

01:52:09.850 --> 01:52:12.289
they create amazing work yeah but I think if

01:52:12.289 --> 01:52:14.630
you looked at it comprehensively the overall

01:52:14.630 --> 01:52:18.829
robustness of your physical body the your body's

01:52:18.829 --> 01:52:22.229
ability to generate energy function at you know

01:52:22.229 --> 01:52:27.369
a really good pace and to just be overall healthy

01:52:28.060 --> 01:52:30.180
I think is very important for creativity. Yeah.

01:52:30.180 --> 01:52:32.579
And I think cardiovascular fitness in particular

01:52:32.579 --> 01:52:35.739
seems to really enhance creativity. I know a

01:52:35.739 --> 01:52:37.420
lot of people that get very creative when they

01:52:37.420 --> 01:52:40.899
run, very creative when they'll do something

01:52:40.899 --> 01:52:43.579
that has a high tax rate on the body like yoga

01:52:43.579 --> 01:52:48.539
or CrossFit, something that's like just – it

01:52:48.539 --> 01:52:51.539
keeps your body functioning at a very high level.

01:52:51.680 --> 01:52:54.319
Yeah. I think that can enhance it too. I've had

01:52:54.319 --> 01:52:57.670
the best – I work out. regularly and it started

01:52:57.670 --> 01:53:00.550
in 2019 i just got divorced and i lost a ton

01:53:00.550 --> 01:53:02.970
of weight and i wasn't sleeping like i was i

01:53:02.970 --> 01:53:05.329
still have trouble sleeping but like i was kind

01:53:05.329 --> 01:53:06.949
of freaked out so i went to a psychiatrist like

01:53:06.949 --> 01:53:09.210
what's wrong with me and talked to him for a

01:53:09.210 --> 01:53:11.789
while and he said you are as healthy as anybody's

01:53:11.789 --> 01:53:14.010
ever walked through my door you just have these

01:53:14.010 --> 01:53:15.909
chemicals firing in your head right now because

01:53:15.909 --> 01:53:17.949
of your divorce and how you're feeling and he's

01:53:17.949 --> 01:53:20.899
like I could prescribe you some crap, but you

01:53:20.899 --> 01:53:22.819
should probably just work out. That's a great

01:53:22.819 --> 01:53:25.039
psychiatrist. Oh, he's fantastic. Thank God you

01:53:25.039 --> 01:53:28.140
found that guy. And so that was July 1st of 2019.

01:53:28.359 --> 01:53:31.960
And so I'm coming up on five years of keeping

01:53:31.960 --> 01:53:36.109
my weight. Like, I lost 40 pounds. And I... I

01:53:36.109 --> 01:53:38.250
exercise. And when you first start doing it,

01:53:38.289 --> 01:53:40.090
it makes you really tired. But when you keep

01:53:40.090 --> 01:53:41.989
doing it, it's like it keeps you from being tired.

01:53:42.050 --> 01:53:44.789
Yeah. And so I'll work out every afternoon, like

01:53:44.789 --> 01:53:47.869
three or four in the afternoon. And I sleep better.

01:53:47.949 --> 01:53:50.670
And the next day is better until I do it again.

01:53:50.770 --> 01:53:52.850
And if I don't work out for a couple of days,

01:53:52.890 --> 01:53:57.020
I feel. really lethargic. Yes. I'm with you 100%.

01:53:57.020 --> 01:54:00.659
And for me, I have this thought that I think

01:54:00.659 --> 01:54:05.659
that human beings evolved with anxiety and fear

01:54:05.659 --> 01:54:09.039
because of actual real threats. Because of threats

01:54:09.039 --> 01:54:11.859
of animals, of predators, and of neighboring

01:54:11.859 --> 01:54:15.060
tribes invading and war and chaos and violence.

01:54:15.060 --> 01:54:18.489
Defense mechanisms. Yes. And then we also carry

01:54:18.489 --> 01:54:20.970
that same anxiety today, but there's no threats.

01:54:21.149 --> 01:54:24.069
Right. So your body is like, ooh. It's the same

01:54:24.069 --> 01:54:26.710
chemicals, as was explained to me, that fire

01:54:26.710 --> 01:54:30.050
out through your brain if you're having some

01:54:30.050 --> 01:54:34.350
crazy relationships. stuff going on as if a tiger

01:54:34.350 --> 01:54:36.470
is chasing you or whatever. It's like your brain

01:54:36.470 --> 01:54:38.250
doesn't have different chemicals for different

01:54:38.250 --> 01:54:41.430
things. And I think that there's a real physical

01:54:41.430 --> 01:54:45.210
requirement of taxing your body that comes with

01:54:45.210 --> 01:54:47.250
that sort of anxiety that if you don't meet that

01:54:47.250 --> 01:54:49.189
physical requirement, your body's just like,

01:54:49.210 --> 01:54:52.289
because it's like, we got to run, man. There's

01:54:52.289 --> 01:54:54.250
something going on. There's something attacking

01:54:54.250 --> 01:54:56.409
us. We got to get the fuck out of here. And unless

01:54:56.409 --> 01:54:59.689
you meet those physical requirements, like wear

01:54:59.689 --> 01:55:02.539
your body out. so that it can get back to a normal

01:55:02.539 --> 01:55:05.439
baseline. It doesn't burn off all that shit.

01:55:05.659 --> 01:55:07.539
I mean, I'm obviously not talking about it like

01:55:07.539 --> 01:55:10.960
a scientist, but there's something to that. For

01:55:10.960 --> 01:55:14.800
me, in times of peak anxiety and peak stress,

01:55:15.060 --> 01:55:17.600
nothing makes me feel better than a hard workout.

01:55:17.779 --> 01:55:20.600
A hard workout, hard sauna session, cold plunge,

01:55:20.640 --> 01:55:24.300
I'm back. Yeah, I agree with that. I got hurt

01:55:24.300 --> 01:55:27.819
playing soccer in my 30s and had a back surgery,

01:55:27.880 --> 01:55:31.039
and the surgeon botched it. permanent nerve damage

01:55:31.039 --> 01:55:34.680
in my left leg. Oh, no. And I had since then

01:55:34.680 --> 01:55:36.640
had four surgeries to try and correct stuff,

01:55:36.760 --> 01:55:39.100
and two of those surgeries didn't go well. And

01:55:39.100 --> 01:55:41.979
so I've spent an entire year and a half of my

01:55:41.979 --> 01:55:45.659
life on crutches or on a knee scooter and not

01:55:45.659 --> 01:55:47.479
able to, I mean, barely able to work out. Like,

01:55:47.500 --> 01:55:49.939
my gym in my old house was... you know just a

01:55:49.939 --> 01:55:52.699
playroom and it was up a wooden staircase and

01:55:52.699 --> 01:55:55.020
it's like I'm crawling on my on my calf oh wow

01:55:55.020 --> 01:55:56.920
and I was literally just doing like Turkish get

01:55:56.920 --> 01:56:00.199
-ups and I'd do like four on each side and be

01:56:00.199 --> 01:56:01.939
crippled the next day but that was all the exercise

01:56:01.939 --> 01:56:04.359
I could get and I was getting depressed and you

01:56:04.359 --> 01:56:07.079
know gaining weight and I just feeling really

01:56:07.079 --> 01:56:10.569
just what Just tired and lethargic all the time.

01:56:10.710 --> 01:56:13.850
And now that I'm able to do – I wear a little

01:56:13.850 --> 01:56:17.569
brace on my ankle. And I'm able to do most anything

01:56:17.569 --> 01:56:22.470
that I want to do. And the more active I stay,

01:56:22.689 --> 01:56:24.609
just the better I feel in 100 different ways.

01:56:24.750 --> 01:56:28.130
Did you get disfused? So I have two levels in

01:56:28.130 --> 01:56:30.609
lumbar discs. I have artificial discs. So it

01:56:30.609 --> 01:56:33.810
was something that they were – It's approved

01:56:33.810 --> 01:56:35.630
in other countries, but it's not FDA approved

01:56:35.630 --> 01:56:38.069
in the U .S. for some reason. Or maybe it is

01:56:38.069 --> 01:56:41.430
now. I know quite a few people that have artificial

01:56:41.430 --> 01:56:42.069
discs in their neck and their back. They do in

01:56:42.069 --> 01:56:44.590
their neck. There's a lot in cervical. But lumbar

01:56:44.590 --> 01:56:47.670
was, at least then. What year was this? 2004

01:56:47.670 --> 01:56:50.050
when I had that surgery. Oh, very early on. Yeah,

01:56:50.090 --> 01:56:52.250
yeah. So yours is not an articulating thing.

01:56:52.250 --> 01:56:54.489
It is articulating. It is? Yeah. Is it titanium?

01:56:54.689 --> 01:56:57.100
It's two levels. Yes. Interesting. Yeah, it's

01:56:57.100 --> 01:56:59.100
called a Maverick. Actually, the company I work

01:56:59.100 --> 01:57:02.600
for made spinal implants, and it was their device.

01:57:02.720 --> 01:57:05.340
Oh, wow. I actually got it, yeah. And it's done

01:57:05.340 --> 01:57:08.180
great for me. I still have kind of chronic back

01:57:08.180 --> 01:57:11.239
pain, but it's so much less. Did you have stenosis?

01:57:11.899 --> 01:57:15.760
Yes. So when they put this in, what were you

01:57:15.760 --> 01:57:17.659
experiencing before they put that in? Was it

01:57:17.659 --> 01:57:20.319
a bulging disc? Was it herniated? Was it pushing

01:57:20.319 --> 01:57:24.020
against nerves? So the first surgeon went in

01:57:24.020 --> 01:57:29.369
to clean up. a one -level bulging disc and left

01:57:29.369 --> 01:57:33.130
sequestered disc material, so the jelly inside

01:57:33.130 --> 01:57:35.810
the jelly donut that is the disc in the foramen,

01:57:35.890 --> 01:57:39.010
which is the joint area where the nerve root

01:57:39.010 --> 01:57:42.649
goes, and it crushed off my nerve root, my L4

01:57:42.649 --> 01:57:45.270
nerve root, which means I can't dorsiflex my

01:57:45.270 --> 01:57:48.529
left foot. At all? Uh -uh. Still? Still. But

01:57:48.529 --> 01:57:53.989
if it was my L5... nerve root. Another doctor

01:57:53.989 --> 01:57:55.569
told me, he's like, look on the bright side.

01:57:55.670 --> 01:57:57.449
If it was the L5 nerve root, you'd never be able

01:57:57.449 --> 01:58:00.510
to evacuate your bowels or have sex or anything

01:58:00.510 --> 01:58:03.909
like that. And I'm like, okay, suddenly, you

01:58:03.909 --> 01:58:06.590
know, the glass is half full. And so what have

01:58:06.590 --> 01:58:09.329
they done to correct that? Well, so I had a second

01:58:09.329 --> 01:58:12.270
surgery to kind of get that disc material out.

01:58:12.390 --> 01:58:13.869
And then I had a third surgery because I just

01:58:13.869 --> 01:58:16.529
had so much discogenic pain. So just midline

01:58:16.529 --> 01:58:19.340
back pain. I was walking with a cane. When I

01:58:19.340 --> 01:58:23.159
was 34 and I'd been a soccer amateur, but like

01:58:23.159 --> 01:58:27.000
very intense soccer player. And the third surgery,

01:58:27.079 --> 01:58:29.640
they went in through my front and they moved

01:58:29.640 --> 01:58:31.439
the whole stomach, the whole peritoneum, the

01:58:31.439 --> 01:58:33.920
bag that holds the stomach. And they put like

01:58:33.920 --> 01:58:36.800
these like shoehorn in there. And then they.

01:58:37.359 --> 01:58:39.380
Took out the discs, and then they put in these

01:58:39.380 --> 01:58:41.239
joints that look kind of like an Oreo cookie.

01:58:41.859 --> 01:58:45.760
So I have two levels of that. And my back pain,

01:58:45.899 --> 01:58:48.159
65 % of my back pain went away immediately. And

01:58:48.159 --> 01:58:51.100
with therapy, another 20%. I still have. But

01:58:51.100 --> 01:58:54.689
then in 2017, I went to have a surgery. to fix

01:58:54.689 --> 01:58:57.670
my ankle and give me the dorsiflexion back. They

01:58:57.670 --> 01:59:00.109
can move a tendon from the inside of your foot

01:59:00.109 --> 01:59:01.850
behind your shin and attach it to the top of

01:59:01.850 --> 01:59:03.449
your foot. And after a while, your body learns

01:59:03.449 --> 01:59:06.029
how to use that tendon right. And so that surgery

01:59:06.029 --> 01:59:08.310
failed. They did it again. It failed again. And

01:59:08.310 --> 01:59:13.050
the second time, it got infected. And just a

01:59:13.050 --> 01:59:16.890
bad doctor, honestly. And I almost lost a foot.

01:59:16.989 --> 01:59:19.529
I had to go and be hospitalized. Was it MRSA?

01:59:20.239 --> 01:59:22.500
What does that mean? Staph? Staph infection?

01:59:22.579 --> 01:59:25.859
Yeah, it was some kind of a staph. Osteomyelitis.

01:59:25.880 --> 01:59:27.920
It was a bone infection. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, so

01:59:27.920 --> 01:59:29.579
I had to do this. That's scary. Yeah, I was on

01:59:29.579 --> 01:59:33.039
crutches and going through the rain to the infusion

01:59:33.039 --> 01:59:36.659
clinic every day. But I had the right mental

01:59:36.659 --> 01:59:38.819
attitude. I was like, hey, if I get past this,

01:59:38.920 --> 01:59:40.840
I can get past anything. I was like, don't let

01:59:40.840 --> 01:59:42.479
yourself get depressed about this. And all the

01:59:42.479 --> 01:59:45.159
while you're writing, too. Yeah, I did two books

01:59:45.159 --> 01:59:47.840
that year. Yeah, yeah. A Gray Man and a Clancy.

01:59:49.520 --> 01:59:52.300
It was about a year and a half process, but I

01:59:52.300 --> 01:59:55.460
won't be getting another surgery. But still,

01:59:55.500 --> 01:59:58.399
the foot is not functioning properly. Yeah, I

01:59:58.399 --> 02:00:01.239
just can't dorsiflex. If I wear the right brace,

02:00:01.359 --> 02:00:06.079
I can cram a soccer cleat on and play soccer

02:00:06.079 --> 02:00:08.800
with my kids and that sort of stuff, and I can

02:00:08.800 --> 02:00:11.500
go to the park for a few hours a day or whatever,

02:00:11.680 --> 02:00:14.859
a few miles. And no big deal. But if I'm standing,

02:00:15.039 --> 02:00:17.039
just standing there like at a cocktail party

02:00:17.039 --> 02:00:18.539
or something like that, it's excruciating. I

02:00:18.539 --> 02:00:20.859
have hydrocodone. It's the only thing I do. Wow.

02:00:21.579 --> 02:00:24.140
It's excruciating. And I've done all the – anybody

02:00:24.140 --> 02:00:26.399
that says you should do physical therapy, it's

02:00:26.399 --> 02:00:28.600
like I know all the exercises because I've been

02:00:28.600 --> 02:00:31.000
to like 10, 12 bouts of physical therapy and

02:00:31.000 --> 02:00:32.960
I do them. And it probably makes it somewhat

02:00:32.960 --> 02:00:36.100
better. But, yeah. Have you done any stem cells?

02:00:36.500 --> 02:00:39.579
No. I've never done that. You should really look

02:00:39.579 --> 02:00:41.680
into that. Yeah, and I haven't even had an MRI

02:00:41.680 --> 02:00:44.020
on this back in like 15 years. I mean, it's because

02:00:44.020 --> 02:00:46.979
it feels the same. But yeah, I probably should

02:00:46.979 --> 02:00:49.239
find a doctor. I'll connect you with some people.

02:00:49.340 --> 02:00:51.199
Stem cells. Well, there's some places that you

02:00:51.199 --> 02:00:53.079
can go outside of the United States where they

02:00:53.079 --> 02:00:54.840
can do some pretty phenomenal stuff with stem

02:00:54.840 --> 02:00:56.619
cells because they don't have the same regulations

02:00:56.619 --> 02:01:00.020
that we have here because of the FDA. But I know

02:01:00.020 --> 02:01:02.020
a bunch of people that have had neurological

02:01:02.020 --> 02:01:05.119
issues and some serious injuries that they've

02:01:05.119 --> 02:01:08.159
helped recover from. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's cool.

02:01:08.319 --> 02:01:10.840
Yeah, I'll connect you when we get out of here.

02:01:10.840 --> 02:01:12.819
It's a great parlor trick, though, with my kids.

02:01:12.899 --> 02:01:14.819
I've actually gotten a pair of pliers and pinched

02:01:14.819 --> 02:01:17.479
my toe, which is not recommended, you know. You

02:01:17.479 --> 02:01:19.079
don't feel anything in your foot at all? Not

02:01:19.079 --> 02:01:22.239
in that part of my foot. Wow. That's got to be

02:01:22.239 --> 02:01:25.340
crazy. Isn't Hulk Hogan say that, that he can't

02:01:25.340 --> 02:01:27.720
feel his legs now? I think Hulk Hogan said that

02:01:27.720 --> 02:01:31.039
because of his most recent back surgeries. Hulk

02:01:31.039 --> 02:01:33.479
Hogan's had a series of back surgeries, and I

02:01:33.479 --> 02:01:35.920
guess he can't feel his legs. That's the nerve

02:01:35.920 --> 02:01:37.819
roots that go down your legs. Yeah, but back

02:01:37.819 --> 02:01:39.720
surgery is a crazy one, and I wish I had known

02:01:39.720 --> 02:01:42.000
you before you had gotten it because there's

02:01:42.000 --> 02:01:44.039
stuff that you could do with bulging discs now

02:01:44.039 --> 02:01:47.920
that you can really repair them with stem cells.

02:01:51.409 --> 02:01:55.630
some decompression exercises that they can decompress

02:01:55.630 --> 02:01:58.510
the spine. There's a machine called reverse hyper

02:01:58.510 --> 02:02:00.649
that's particularly good at the lumbar area.

02:02:01.439 --> 02:02:05.720
It was created by this guy, Louis Simmons, who

02:02:05.720 --> 02:02:09.060
was a famous power lifter, who fucked his back

02:02:09.060 --> 02:02:13.140
up from compression. And they wanted to fuse

02:02:13.140 --> 02:02:15.460
his back. And he was like, well, why can't I

02:02:15.460 --> 02:02:17.300
figure out a way to decompress it? There's got

02:02:17.300 --> 02:02:19.319
to be a way to decompress it. So he invented

02:02:19.319 --> 02:02:21.960
this machine called the reverse hyper. And what

02:02:21.960 --> 02:02:23.699
the reverse hyper is, we have one out here in

02:02:23.699 --> 02:02:25.539
the gym. I'll show it to you after we're done.

02:02:25.680 --> 02:02:28.939
But you lay your stomach down on this flat bench

02:02:28.939 --> 02:02:31.640
and you hook your ankles. up to this thing that's

02:02:31.640 --> 02:02:35.670
sort of like a leg curl, and you lift up. And

02:02:35.670 --> 02:02:38.569
then you lift your legs up, which strengthens

02:02:38.569 --> 02:02:43.149
the back. And then as you let it down, it swings,

02:02:43.449 --> 02:02:45.989
and it's actively decompressing your back. So

02:02:45.989 --> 02:02:48.609
it's like traction. This is it right here. Oh,

02:02:48.729 --> 02:02:51.510
wow. So that's the machine. I actually use that

02:02:51.510 --> 02:02:54.149
today. That's the Rogue version of it, which

02:02:54.149 --> 02:02:56.949
I think is the best version of that machine.

02:02:57.229 --> 02:02:59.010
Yeah, that would definitely decompress things

02:02:59.010 --> 02:03:02.510
down there. Yeah, so as it drops down, you're

02:03:02.510 --> 02:03:06.170
pulling the back. So you're strengthening it

02:03:06.170 --> 02:03:10.000
on the up. On the concentric and then on the

02:03:10.000 --> 02:03:13.520
eccentric, you're lengthening. Yeah. And it allows

02:03:13.520 --> 02:03:16.760
the spine to like slowly get stretched and pulled

02:03:16.760 --> 02:03:19.119
apart. And it's been amazing for me. Yeah. It

02:03:19.119 --> 02:03:22.039
strengthens that area and it's alleviated any

02:03:22.039 --> 02:03:23.680
issues that I had. I used to get like the occasional

02:03:23.680 --> 02:03:26.100
sciatic pain. I don't get any of that anymore.

02:03:26.199 --> 02:03:28.840
Oh, that's fantastic. And my back is all fucked

02:03:28.840 --> 02:03:31.520
up. From the top of my neck all the way down

02:03:31.520 --> 02:03:33.319
to my lower back, I've had issues from jiu -jitsu.

02:03:34.140 --> 02:03:36.680
Jiu -jitsu is the worst. Jiu -jitsu and wrestling.

02:03:36.720 --> 02:03:39.159
It's like people are constantly, like, shoving

02:03:39.159 --> 02:03:41.340
your neck into the ground. And you're, like,

02:03:41.340 --> 02:03:43.880
getting stacked where, like, you know, you're

02:03:43.880 --> 02:03:46.640
literally all your weight is on your upper back

02:03:46.640 --> 02:03:48.939
and your neck. And someone's got a hold of your

02:03:48.939 --> 02:03:51.340
legs. And you're trying to pass. And you're resisting

02:03:51.340 --> 02:03:54.260
and moving. And it's so much strain on the spinal

02:03:54.260 --> 02:03:57.859
column. And unless you strengthen all the tissue

02:03:57.859 --> 02:04:01.300
around that to keep it stable, you're going to

02:04:01.300 --> 02:04:03.600
get injuries. Absolutely. So I do something for

02:04:03.600 --> 02:04:05.539
my neck. I have this thing called an iron neck

02:04:05.539 --> 02:04:08.569
grip. put a halo on and have a bungee cord that's

02:04:08.569 --> 02:04:10.670
like 50 pounds of pressure to pull it back. I've

02:04:10.670 --> 02:04:14.390
seen that. Yeah. So that's how I keep everything

02:04:14.390 --> 02:04:17.250
strong and functional. And there's ways around

02:04:17.250 --> 02:04:20.350
the surgery. Yeah. Yeah. For some people, for

02:04:20.350 --> 02:04:22.630
some injuries. I mean, it's not for all of them,

02:04:22.670 --> 02:04:25.289
but for bulging discs, I had a bulging disc in

02:04:25.289 --> 02:04:27.189
my neck to the point where it was causing ulnar

02:04:27.189 --> 02:04:29.630
nerve pain, where I'd have this pain in my elbow

02:04:29.630 --> 02:04:32.310
and my fingertips were getting numb. Yeah. And

02:04:32.310 --> 02:04:35.010
it was pretty fucked. And I fixed all that. Yeah.

02:04:35.149 --> 02:04:37.430
No surgery. That's awesome. Yeah, back in 2002,

02:04:37.710 --> 02:04:40.090
I basically went to the ER because I blew a disc

02:04:40.090 --> 02:04:43.210
playing soccer, and the surgeon was this British

02:04:43.210 --> 02:04:45.449
guy who knew all about soccer, and he's like,

02:04:45.529 --> 02:04:47.250
you know, you might have to sit out the rest

02:04:47.250 --> 02:04:49.109
of this season, but by the fall you'll be able

02:04:49.109 --> 02:04:50.930
to play again if we do this surgery. And I'm

02:04:50.930 --> 02:04:53.569
like, okay. And I woke up and couldn't feel my

02:04:53.569 --> 02:04:55.850
leg. That's the problem with when you're dealing

02:04:55.850 --> 02:04:58.130
with nerves. You're dealing with the spine. It's

02:04:58.130 --> 02:05:00.689
such a delicate place. It really is. My friend

02:05:00.689 --> 02:05:02.890
Boss Rutten, who's the UFC heavyweight champion.

02:05:03.310 --> 02:05:05.300
I've got some of his. his tapes and stuff. He's

02:05:05.300 --> 02:05:08.619
great. Boss had his neck fused and one of his

02:05:08.619 --> 02:05:12.119
arms shriveled. He had atrophy because of nerve

02:05:12.119 --> 02:05:15.020
damage. And so he's got what he calls baby arm.

02:05:15.159 --> 02:05:18.039
So his right arm is like half the size of his

02:05:18.039 --> 02:05:20.140
left arm. His left arm is this jacked fucking

02:05:20.140 --> 02:05:23.300
arm. And it's not fixable? It's a slow recovery

02:05:23.300 --> 02:05:26.239
process. Like every year he'll gain like a little

02:05:26.239 --> 02:05:28.420
bit more movement, a little bit more strength.

02:05:28.500 --> 02:05:31.550
But here he was. Former heavyweight champion

02:05:31.550 --> 02:05:33.350
of the world, he couldn't hold up a gallon of

02:05:33.350 --> 02:05:37.079
milk. Oh, God. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. I don't know

02:05:37.079 --> 02:05:38.319
how long it's been since I've seen him, but he

02:05:38.319 --> 02:05:40.439
looked in good shape. I saw him the other day.

02:05:40.479 --> 02:05:42.960
He looks better. He's getting better constantly,

02:05:43.140 --> 02:05:45.699
but that one particular area because of the fusion.

02:05:45.880 --> 02:05:48.479
And he fucked his neck up, believe it or not.

02:05:48.560 --> 02:05:50.539
Well, he had fucked his neck up many times in

02:05:50.539 --> 02:05:52.960
his career. He actually fought for the heavyweight

02:05:52.960 --> 02:05:55.920
title when he—was it the heavyweight title? No.

02:05:56.000 --> 02:05:58.199
When he fought Toshiko Saka, which was, I think,

02:05:58.279 --> 02:06:00.060
the first fight that he had in the UFC, he couldn't

02:06:00.060 --> 02:06:02.640
do any wrestling because his neck was so fucked

02:06:02.640 --> 02:06:07.109
up. So he just kind of had to spar and— And get

02:06:07.109 --> 02:06:09.329
in shape without doing any wrestling. And he

02:06:09.329 --> 02:06:12.989
still won the fight. But then he was doing Sons

02:06:12.989 --> 02:06:16.970
of Anarchy. He was doing a stunt scene. And he

02:06:16.970 --> 02:06:19.529
fell on his neck in this stunt and just fucked

02:06:19.529 --> 02:06:21.409
his neck up and then wound up getting it fused.

02:06:22.010 --> 02:06:23.630
But now they're doing these articulating discs

02:06:23.630 --> 02:06:25.810
in the neck that have been very successful. In

02:06:25.810 --> 02:06:28.850
fact, Aljamain Sterling, who's the UFC bantamweight

02:06:28.850 --> 02:06:31.810
champion, he actually had that done. So he had

02:06:31.810 --> 02:06:35.250
a disc replacement in his neck where he fought

02:06:35.250 --> 02:06:39.010
Piotr Jan, fought for the title, got illegally

02:06:39.010 --> 02:06:43.090
kneed in the head, and won the title on a disqualification,

02:06:43.189 --> 02:06:45.810
which a lot of people are like, boo. You can't

02:06:45.810 --> 02:06:48.470
win a title like that. Then had to get this operation.

02:06:48.750 --> 02:06:50.729
So it was a long time before they had the rematch,

02:06:50.750 --> 02:06:52.850
and they came in. dominated in the rematch with

02:06:52.850 --> 02:06:56.050
a fake disc in his hand. Wow, he went back to

02:06:56.050 --> 02:06:58.149
it. Yep, and not only went back to it, went back

02:06:58.149 --> 02:07:00.590
to it better than ever. So they can do it now.

02:07:00.670 --> 02:07:02.890
If you get the right doctor and it works out

02:07:02.890 --> 02:07:04.829
well. So with Aljamain, it's worked out amazing.

02:07:05.010 --> 02:07:07.210
But he tried a bunch of different things to try

02:07:07.210 --> 02:07:09.050
to heal it without that, and they weren't successful.

02:07:09.609 --> 02:07:12.229
But again, you're dealing with a guy who's a

02:07:12.229 --> 02:07:14.590
high -level wrestler, a Brazilian jiu -jitsu

02:07:14.590 --> 02:07:17.770
black belt, a world champion MMA fighter. I mean,

02:07:17.829 --> 02:07:21.079
the kind of pressure and strain. It's on his

02:07:21.079 --> 02:07:24.159
body. It's just extraordinary. Yeah. And it works

02:07:24.159 --> 02:07:26.579
for him. He's got a fake disc in his neck. It

02:07:26.579 --> 02:07:29.680
works. That's awesome. Yeah. Mine and my low

02:07:29.680 --> 02:07:32.479
back, definitely better than it was before. My

02:07:32.479 --> 02:07:35.260
back's never going to not hurt, I don't guess.

02:07:35.439 --> 02:07:38.460
Yeah. But it's a lot better than it was. And

02:07:38.460 --> 02:07:41.539
you look at the – I remember feeling sorry for

02:07:41.539 --> 02:07:45.130
myself at one point. going at some place to get

02:07:45.130 --> 02:07:47.729
fitted for a brace and there was a little child

02:07:47.729 --> 02:07:50.270
in there that had no legs and i was like okay

02:07:50.270 --> 02:07:53.510
you need to get your brain right you know punch

02:07:53.510 --> 02:07:55.250
yourself in the face right now because you you've

02:07:55.250 --> 02:07:57.949
got it you're fine yeah this poor kid yeah it's

02:07:57.949 --> 02:08:00.750
all perspective yeah that that's so important

02:08:00.750 --> 02:08:02.970
it's it's so hard when you get injured because

02:08:02.970 --> 02:08:05.979
you just It's amazing how vulnerable the human

02:08:05.979 --> 02:08:08.659
body is. It really is extraordinary. And then

02:08:08.659 --> 02:08:11.520
when you do difficult stuff and then you put

02:08:11.520 --> 02:08:13.579
all these different stresses on, everything seems

02:08:13.579 --> 02:08:18.060
okay until one day. And then it's not. Yeah.

02:08:18.079 --> 02:08:20.659
And then you're fucked. Yeah. I do squats now

02:08:20.659 --> 02:08:23.760
and just on a Smith machine. But like but like

02:08:23.760 --> 02:08:25.920
there was, you know, I was walking with a cane

02:08:25.920 --> 02:08:28.479
in my 30s. I was like, it's kind of like the

02:08:28.479 --> 02:08:30.300
fountain of youth is to be like really fucked

02:08:30.300 --> 02:08:32.600
up when you're younger and then and then feel

02:08:32.600 --> 02:08:34.159
better. You know, it's like, hey, I've never

02:08:34.159 --> 02:08:36.779
felt better. Right. Right. And there's also.

02:08:37.310 --> 02:08:39.529
There's this perspective that comes from having

02:08:39.529 --> 02:08:41.829
been debilitated, having been really injured,

02:08:41.949 --> 02:08:44.449
and then recovering from that where you really

02:08:44.449 --> 02:08:46.090
appreciate your ability to move. Totally appreciate

02:08:46.090 --> 02:08:49.010
it, yeah. And I told myself with my low back,

02:08:49.170 --> 02:08:50.710
you know, it's like if I can just get functional,

02:08:50.810 --> 02:08:53.729
I'm going to appreciate every day. And it's been

02:08:53.729 --> 02:08:59.090
18, 19 years since the surgery that helped my

02:08:59.090 --> 02:09:01.880
back where they went in through the front. so

02:09:01.880 --> 02:09:04.420
lucky to have had it. Yeah, it's like the same

02:09:04.420 --> 02:09:06.500
thing that happens when you're really sick, right?

02:09:06.640 --> 02:09:08.180
When you're really sick, you're like, God, I

02:09:08.180 --> 02:09:10.060
can't wait to be healthy again. God, I appreciate

02:09:10.060 --> 02:09:11.460
it. But when you're healthy, you're like, yeah,

02:09:11.460 --> 02:09:13.760
normal day, whatever, everything's fine. Yeah,

02:09:13.819 --> 02:09:15.119
yeah, until you're sick again, and you're going

02:09:15.119 --> 02:09:18.619
like, oh, I had it good, and I still sat around

02:09:18.619 --> 02:09:20.479
and watched TV or something. It's just so hard

02:09:20.479 --> 02:09:23.420
to keep perspective. It's so hard to realize

02:09:23.420 --> 02:09:25.539
how fortunate you are. Like when you're saying

02:09:25.539 --> 02:09:26.939
you're looking at the child that doesn't have

02:09:26.939 --> 02:09:31.319
legs, you can see how lucky you really are. Yeah,

02:09:31.420 --> 02:09:35.399
yeah. And that kid is a lot luckier than somebody

02:09:35.399 --> 02:09:38.060
else, too. When you're injured like that, does

02:09:38.060 --> 02:09:43.479
that sort of aid your writing in a way? Because

02:09:43.479 --> 02:09:46.939
a lot of times when you're dealing with characters...

02:09:47.439 --> 02:09:48.859
You know, you're dealing with characters that

02:09:48.859 --> 02:09:52.000
are involved in combat. Yeah. You know, and especially

02:09:52.000 --> 02:09:54.300
the gray man. Yeah. Like he's always injured.

02:09:54.460 --> 02:09:57.800
Yeah. I've worked all that stuff in before. I've

02:09:57.800 --> 02:10:00.079
done a lot of like sort of like gunshot wound

02:10:00.079 --> 02:10:02.539
management and training and stuff like that.

02:10:02.579 --> 02:10:04.640
So that that works itself in there. But just

02:10:04.640 --> 02:10:07.920
the injuries. At one point he had a hydrocodone

02:10:07.920 --> 02:10:10.279
addiction or he had some kind of pill addiction.

02:10:10.300 --> 02:10:14.060
Yeah. Some sort of opioid. And I don't. And it's

02:10:14.060 --> 02:10:15.680
funny because at the time everybody's like, do

02:10:15.680 --> 02:10:19.520
you have do you have. And I'm like, nobody's

02:10:19.520 --> 02:10:21.739
asking me if I'm an assassin. You know, they're

02:10:21.739 --> 02:10:25.880
only asking me if I'm popping pills. But I can

02:10:25.880 --> 02:10:28.239
understand how somebody could get on, you know,

02:10:28.260 --> 02:10:31.060
because I was taking them for pain. And when

02:10:31.060 --> 02:10:34.739
the pain got, you know, low enough, I didn't

02:10:34.739 --> 02:10:37.380
take them regularly. But I still, like, I would

02:10:37.380 --> 02:10:39.819
have a panic attack if I didn't have some access

02:10:39.819 --> 02:10:42.539
to hydrocodone because when it flares up, I mean.

02:10:42.970 --> 02:10:44.869
There's nothing that makes it go away that I

02:10:44.869 --> 02:10:49.090
know of. I have a good friend who was an MMA

02:10:49.090 --> 02:10:52.130
fighter who had his nose smashed in a fight and

02:10:52.130 --> 02:10:54.649
got his nose fixed and, like, crushed all the

02:10:54.649 --> 02:10:56.649
bones. And he got hit with an elbow, Brendan

02:10:56.649 --> 02:10:59.850
Shaw. And he fought this guy, Mirko Krokop, who's,

02:10:59.869 --> 02:11:01.470
like, a legendary assassin, like, one of the

02:11:01.470 --> 02:11:03.109
greatest MMA fighters of all time. And he got

02:11:03.109 --> 02:11:05.630
his nose smashed. Brendan wound up winning the

02:11:05.630 --> 02:11:07.989
fight by KO. But then afterwards, his nose was

02:11:07.989 --> 02:11:10.449
fucked. And then he had to get it reconstructed,

02:11:10.449 --> 02:11:13.510
like, literally rebuilt. And he got hooked on

02:11:13.510 --> 02:11:15.470
pain pills and he didn't even realize it. Yeah.

02:11:15.850 --> 02:11:17.390
And he was just popping them all day. And then

02:11:17.390 --> 02:11:18.930
finally one of his friends was like, hey, man,

02:11:19.050 --> 02:11:20.949
how many fucking pills are you taking? Like,

02:11:20.970 --> 02:11:22.789
what are you doing? Yeah. And then they took

02:11:22.789 --> 02:11:24.430
the pills away from him. He just went cold turkey

02:11:24.430 --> 02:11:26.350
and got off of it. He's never been back since.

02:11:26.390 --> 02:11:29.539
Yeah. He said it was scary. He's like, I didn't

02:11:29.539 --> 02:11:31.140
even realize I was hooked. But then the fear

02:11:31.140 --> 02:11:33.859
is he gets some other injury and he needs, you

02:11:33.859 --> 02:11:35.420
know, it's like you hear about these people that

02:11:35.420 --> 02:11:37.840
are like, don't give me anything because I'm

02:11:37.840 --> 02:11:40.699
addicted. It's like, oh, my God. That's probably

02:11:40.699 --> 02:11:42.539
stressful for the doctor, too, to have to do

02:11:42.539 --> 02:11:44.859
some procedure without giving somebody. Well,

02:11:44.920 --> 02:11:47.939
I'm not addicted to painkillers, but I don't

02:11:47.939 --> 02:11:51.800
like them. I had one knee surgery. I've had three

02:11:51.800 --> 02:11:53.560
knee surgeries, but I had one of them in 93.

02:11:54.260 --> 02:11:56.399
And they gave me, I can't remember if it was

02:11:56.399 --> 02:11:59.399
Percocet. But they gave it to me, and I remember

02:11:59.399 --> 02:12:02.520
sitting on my couch feeling so stupid. I was

02:12:02.520 --> 02:12:05.260
like, oh, my God, I'm never taking this again.

02:12:05.479 --> 02:12:08.960
I'd rather be in agony than deal with this. But

02:12:08.960 --> 02:12:12.199
that's just me. My chemistry doesn't work with

02:12:12.199 --> 02:12:16.659
those things. I don't like it. Yeah. If I'm really

02:12:16.659 --> 02:12:19.220
in pain, I don't even really notice I take it.

02:12:19.220 --> 02:12:21.880
I just have less pain. But there's been times

02:12:21.880 --> 02:12:23.239
where I've been like, all right, I'm going to

02:12:23.239 --> 02:12:25.020
be standing for a long time. I'm going to take

02:12:25.020 --> 02:12:29.340
one now. preemptively or whatever. And I feel

02:12:29.340 --> 02:12:31.699
dopey. And so I do get that dopey feeling. But

02:12:31.699 --> 02:12:34.579
when you're really taking it to deal with pain,

02:12:34.760 --> 02:12:37.260
somehow it goes to another part of your brain

02:12:37.260 --> 02:12:40.000
or something. And I don't feel dopey at all when

02:12:40.000 --> 02:12:42.779
I take a hydrocodone unless I take one when I

02:12:42.779 --> 02:12:44.880
probably shouldn't. Well, that's very fortunate

02:12:44.880 --> 02:12:46.560
that you haven't had problems with addictions

02:12:46.560 --> 02:12:48.260
with them because it is pretty common. Yeah.

02:12:48.300 --> 02:12:50.359
I mean, I will go six weeks without taking one

02:12:50.359 --> 02:12:53.840
and then I'll take. two a day for three weeks

02:12:53.840 --> 02:12:56.460
if i hurt myself or whatever and then are you

02:12:56.460 --> 02:13:00.220
aware like i've been doing this a lot yeah and

02:13:00.220 --> 02:13:02.800
you want to it's funny like i i don't feel like

02:13:02.800 --> 02:13:04.680
anything's different but my wife will be like

02:13:04.680 --> 02:13:06.539
what's wrong and i'm like nothing and she's like

02:13:06.539 --> 02:13:09.439
she got hydrocodone i'm like yeah but i'm sitting

02:13:09.439 --> 02:13:10.720
here with this mom you know like everything's

02:13:10.720 --> 02:13:13.180
fine and she's just like i guess i just your

02:13:13.180 --> 02:13:15.000
frequency is a little different yeah a little

02:13:15.000 --> 02:13:16.960
glassy or something i don't even sense it myself

02:13:16.960 --> 02:13:19.699
but um yeah no if i've been taking it for a while

02:13:19.699 --> 02:13:23.500
it's just kind of like all right really you know

02:13:23.500 --> 02:13:27.420
assess whether I need it but yeah it's I probably

02:13:27.420 --> 02:13:31.989
take 12 a month or something Do you know Diamond

02:13:31.989 --> 02:13:35.909
Dallas Page, the pro wrestler? He had a series

02:13:35.909 --> 02:13:38.170
of pretty horrible back injuries. Obviously,

02:13:38.170 --> 02:13:40.430
he's doing crazy pro wrestling. Big giant guy.

02:13:40.590 --> 02:13:42.810
Other giant guys are smashing him and throwing

02:13:42.810 --> 02:13:45.229
him to the ground. And he developed a yoga program

02:13:45.229 --> 02:13:48.050
to sort of deal with his pain. And he's got his

02:13:48.050 --> 02:13:51.270
entire back is arthritic. But because of the

02:13:51.270 --> 02:13:53.729
yoga and because he does it every day, he's pain

02:13:53.729 --> 02:13:56.729
-free and super flexible and very agile. Pretty

02:13:56.729 --> 02:13:59.590
amazing. And his program, I know a lot of great

02:13:59.590 --> 02:14:01.789
people. rappers have utilized his program because

02:14:01.789 --> 02:14:04.909
it's very specific to those kind of dynamic movements.

02:14:05.090 --> 02:14:07.729
Cool. It's really good. He's got his own kind

02:14:07.729 --> 02:14:10.210
of yoga. Every fourth day, I just do stretching.

02:14:10.329 --> 02:14:13.630
I don't do weights. But I don't have anything

02:14:13.630 --> 02:14:15.930
organized. I'm just doing what I think I should

02:14:15.930 --> 02:14:16.970
be doing. Do you do it by yourself? Yeah, yeah.

02:14:17.420 --> 02:14:19.539
Do you find you like doing it by yourself because

02:14:19.539 --> 02:14:21.340
it's sort of meditative and it sort of helps

02:14:21.340 --> 02:14:23.159
you think about the stuff you're writing? Yeah,

02:14:23.220 --> 02:14:26.460
I'm usually listening to an audio book or something

02:14:26.460 --> 02:14:28.539
like when I work out. I don't even think about

02:14:28.539 --> 02:14:30.060
working out when I work out. I'll sort of write

02:14:30.060 --> 02:14:31.979
down what I'm going to do and I try and do a

02:14:31.979 --> 02:14:33.659
little bit more than I did last time or another

02:14:33.659 --> 02:14:35.699
rep or better form or, you know, some little

02:14:35.699 --> 02:14:38.140
improvement on the line. And I because I can

02:14:38.140 --> 02:14:41.079
see what I did when I did whatever back in biceps

02:14:41.079 --> 02:14:45.899
three days ago. But like when I stretch, it's

02:14:45.899 --> 02:14:49.359
it is meditative because I don't know, it's kind

02:14:49.359 --> 02:14:51.659
of like I hate to use that term me time. But,

02:14:51.680 --> 02:14:54.699
you know, it's so like it's so like this. I go

02:14:54.699 --> 02:14:56.960
in there and nobody's in there and I'm just kind

02:14:56.960 --> 02:15:00.000
of doing my thing and it makes me feel good afterwards.

02:15:00.199 --> 02:15:03.100
And I'm happier doing it than not doing it. And

02:15:03.100 --> 02:15:05.340
I'm able to, you know, sort of multitask and

02:15:05.340 --> 02:15:09.039
get some work done listening to. Yeah, that's

02:15:09.039 --> 02:15:11.779
how I feel about it too. I think of it as me

02:15:11.779 --> 02:15:13.840
time. I like working out by myself. I've worked

02:15:13.840 --> 02:15:16.079
out with trainers before, especially with martial

02:15:16.079 --> 02:15:20.180
arts. But when it comes to weight training, especially

02:15:20.180 --> 02:15:22.460
because I don't do stuff where I need a spotter.

02:15:22.479 --> 02:15:24.300
I don't lift heavy weights. Yeah, same either.

02:15:24.600 --> 02:15:28.159
Yeah. Me either. Do you do cold therapy, like

02:15:28.159 --> 02:15:30.340
ice bath? You do? Yeah, I do it first thing in

02:15:30.340 --> 02:15:31.800
the morning every day. That looks like the hardest

02:15:31.800 --> 02:15:35.060
thing of all. It's not. It's not? Nah, you get

02:15:35.060 --> 02:15:37.039
used to it. Wow. It's like everything else. I

02:15:37.039 --> 02:15:38.739
did it today. But they say it's really good for

02:15:38.739 --> 02:15:40.479
you. It's great for you. People that I respect

02:15:40.479 --> 02:15:42.899
say, oh my God, you've got to do this. And I'm

02:15:42.899 --> 02:15:45.340
kind of like, ugh. You should read or listen

02:15:45.340 --> 02:15:48.500
to or watch YouTube videos from Andrew Huberman.

02:15:48.600 --> 02:15:51.060
He's a professor out of Stanford who's done a

02:15:51.060 --> 02:15:53.300
fantastic job of breaking down the benefits of

02:15:53.300 --> 02:15:57.380
cold and heat therapy. Yeah. And it ramps up

02:15:57.380 --> 02:16:00.180
your dopamine by like 200 % and it lasts for

02:16:00.180 --> 02:16:03.539
hours, reduces inflammation, produces all these

02:16:03.539 --> 02:16:05.340
cold shock proteins that are fantastic. Fantastic

02:16:05.340 --> 02:16:08.380
for your body. And heat and cold together, the

02:16:08.380 --> 02:16:10.619
contrast therapy is also very, very good for

02:16:10.619 --> 02:16:12.979
you. But just heat alone, you know, they did

02:16:12.979 --> 02:16:15.279
a study out of Finland that showed that four

02:16:15.279 --> 02:16:17.520
times a week of the sauna for 20 minutes had

02:16:17.520 --> 02:16:21.020
a 40 % decrease in all -cause mortality. Oh,

02:16:21.039 --> 02:16:22.539
my gosh. Everything. Strokes, heart attacks,

02:16:22.800 --> 02:16:24.800
cancer. Wow. Everything. Because of the heat

02:16:24.800 --> 02:16:27.399
shock proteins. Because you're, first of all,

02:16:27.420 --> 02:16:30.399
it's a static cardio because you're sitting there

02:16:30.399 --> 02:16:32.540
and your heart is jacked. Your heart rate gets

02:16:32.540 --> 02:16:33.520
to it. Because the heat, your heart rate goes

02:16:33.520 --> 02:16:35.799
up. Yeah. I mean, when I'm in the sauna, I wear

02:16:35.799 --> 02:16:38.399
a chest strap. I wear a polar strap so I can

02:16:38.399 --> 02:16:41.920
see what's going on. And my heart rate regularly

02:16:41.920 --> 02:16:45.180
be in the 150s. Oh, my God. High 140s, 150s.

02:16:45.180 --> 02:16:47.600
Yeah. Especially when it gets to like 20 minutes.

02:16:47.639 --> 02:16:50.639
Yeah. 25 minutes. Yeah. Because, you know, I've

02:16:50.639 --> 02:16:54.780
got it to 190, 195 degrees. And I'm sitting there

02:16:54.780 --> 02:16:57.379
sweating. Wow. Just suffering. And I generally

02:16:57.379 --> 02:17:00.909
do it. post -training. So I'll go in high heart

02:17:00.909 --> 02:17:03.110
rate already, just got done with the workout.

02:17:03.170 --> 02:17:06.520
I try to go in when my... I want to go in at

02:17:06.520 --> 02:17:10.959
like a 9 ,900 beats per minute as I enter. And

02:17:10.959 --> 02:17:13.860
then I enter into this fucking sauna that's just

02:17:13.860 --> 02:17:17.059
hell. And it's perfect. It just keeps that heart

02:17:17.059 --> 02:17:18.780
rate jacked. Do you have somebody looking out

02:17:18.780 --> 02:17:21.940
for you, checking in on you? Nope. No, I'm not

02:17:21.940 --> 02:17:25.340
smart. I went in the cold plunge once for 20

02:17:25.340 --> 02:17:26.920
minutes with no one around me. Yeah, you need

02:17:26.920 --> 02:17:29.200
an ejection seat or something. Well, the cold

02:17:29.200 --> 02:17:30.760
plunge is the worst because you can't get out.

02:17:30.860 --> 02:17:32.799
Like with the sauna, you can kind of open the

02:17:32.799 --> 02:17:34.180
door and just get out of there. But the cold

02:17:34.180 --> 02:17:37.020
plunge. You're underwater up to your neck. If

02:17:37.020 --> 02:17:38.780
something went wrong and I had to get out of

02:17:38.780 --> 02:17:40.920
there, if I blacked out, I'd be kind of fucked.

02:17:41.020 --> 02:17:43.719
You're going to Jim Morrison. Yeah, I don't recommend

02:17:43.719 --> 02:17:47.260
doing that. But three minutes is nothing. Three

02:17:47.260 --> 02:17:49.979
minutes is normal. It's like I don't like it,

02:17:50.020 --> 02:17:52.420
which is why I do it. Every morning I'm like,

02:17:52.500 --> 02:17:54.500
maybe today I should just not do this on. I'm

02:17:54.500 --> 02:17:56.680
like, shut up, pussy. Just get in there. Maybe

02:17:56.680 --> 02:17:58.940
today I won't wake up with a cold plunge. Shut

02:17:58.940 --> 02:18:02.440
up, pussy. So I have this one part of my brain

02:18:02.440 --> 02:18:04.850
that tells my body. what the fuck to do yeah

02:18:04.850 --> 02:18:07.309
but my body's like sending all these signals

02:18:07.309 --> 02:18:09.770
like today maybe we did maybe today would be

02:18:09.770 --> 02:18:11.969
a nice day to relax yeah like i have all those

02:18:11.969 --> 02:18:14.290
little games that my brain plays on me i just

02:18:14.290 --> 02:18:16.750
don't listen seven days a week with with working

02:18:16.750 --> 02:18:18.829
out like but when it's about time to work out

02:18:18.829 --> 02:18:21.010
it's like this might be a day you know i'm a

02:18:21.010 --> 02:18:22.930
little tired or i can think of nine other things

02:18:22.930 --> 02:18:25.530
i need to do and blah blah blah and and and now

02:18:25.530 --> 02:18:28.069
i've it takes a while to like discipline is like

02:18:28.069 --> 02:18:30.870
a muscle you know you know this and and um because

02:18:30.870 --> 02:18:33.149
i wasn't when i you know i wish i worked out

02:18:33.469 --> 02:18:35.590
when I was 25, as hard as I do now, I'd probably,

02:18:35.729 --> 02:18:37.750
you'd see it differently. You'd be jacked. Yeah,

02:18:37.750 --> 02:18:39.729
because it's like, you know, I probably don't

02:18:39.729 --> 02:18:42.149
eat enough protein, and, you know, I'm 55, so

02:18:42.149 --> 02:18:44.790
it's, but I am definitely, there's definitely

02:18:44.790 --> 02:18:48.209
benefits, but every day, it's starting from scratch,

02:18:48.290 --> 02:18:50.469
going like, it's like, yeah, this might be the

02:18:50.469 --> 02:18:53.670
day, and I'm always happy I did it. I call it

02:18:53.670 --> 02:18:55.750
your inner bitch. Yeah, yeah. You gotta conquer

02:18:55.750 --> 02:18:58.350
your inner bitch. I have a t -shirt that I sell

02:18:58.350 --> 02:19:00.190
that says conquer your inner bitch with a kettlebell

02:19:00.190 --> 02:19:02.370
on it. I think that's what it is. It's like there's

02:19:02.370 --> 02:19:05.159
a, thing that everybody has and this idea that

02:19:05.159 --> 02:19:07.159
these people that are like super disciplined

02:19:07.159 --> 02:19:10.139
don't have that feeling like david goggins who's

02:19:10.139 --> 02:19:11.819
the most disciplined fucking human being has

02:19:11.819 --> 02:19:13.659
ever walked the face of planet earth i love his

02:19:13.659 --> 02:19:16.040
book his first book he's amazing second book's

02:19:16.040 --> 02:19:18.639
even better he's amazing yeah and david says

02:19:18.639 --> 02:19:20.659
sometimes i look at my sneakers for a half hour

02:19:20.659 --> 02:19:24.239
put those motherfuckers on like he procrastinates

02:19:24.239 --> 02:19:26.379
like he'll think about it because he knows he's

02:19:26.379 --> 02:19:29.540
gonna push himself through hell yeah So he'll

02:19:29.540 --> 02:19:32.540
be honest about it, but he never lets that inner

02:19:32.540 --> 02:19:35.959
bitch win. Yeah. I mean, if he's hearing that

02:19:35.959 --> 02:19:38.120
every day, then that's pretty inspiring. This

02:19:38.120 --> 02:19:40.379
is how crazy David is. David sent me a photo

02:19:40.379 --> 02:19:42.680
of his toe yesterday. I'm going to send this

02:19:42.680 --> 02:19:45.780
to you, Jamie, because it's so crazy. Because

02:19:45.780 --> 02:19:49.040
he was just telling me, he was just sending me

02:19:49.040 --> 02:19:51.500
some stuff about things he's been doing. And

02:19:51.500 --> 02:19:56.500
he thinks of it as like he literally says that

02:19:56.500 --> 02:19:59.569
it's like he's gaining. knowledge from these

02:19:59.569 --> 02:20:02.549
suffer sessions from these you know marathon

02:20:02.549 --> 02:20:06.329
runs it'll do on a regular basis and like what

02:20:06.329 --> 02:20:08.489
whatever he's getting out of there he's like

02:20:08.489 --> 02:20:12.649
i'm getting like like he thinks of it as like

02:20:12.649 --> 02:20:15.930
that's his toe oh my god yeah i told michael

02:20:15.930 --> 02:20:18.850
bro that belongs in a fucking mummy's mummy's

02:20:18.850 --> 02:20:21.010
foot in the zoo any of those other toes would

02:20:21.010 --> 02:20:23.770
be or in a museum rather that's like a mummy

02:20:23.770 --> 02:20:25.729
yeah like that looks like something in a music

02:20:25.729 --> 02:20:28.739
let me see that again jamie That looks like something

02:20:28.739 --> 02:20:31.200
on a mummy. Like, that's something in a museum,

02:20:31.360 --> 02:20:34.020
right? Or that's something that doesn't look

02:20:34.020 --> 02:20:36.479
like a human toe. That looks like something different.

02:20:36.680 --> 02:20:38.760
Like, what is that? What is that toe? That's

02:20:38.760 --> 02:20:42.340
crazy. And this guy does that to himself all

02:20:42.340 --> 02:20:48.000
the time. I mean, he runs on those. His toenails

02:20:48.000 --> 02:20:50.819
fall off all the time. Like, he never keeps toenails.

02:20:50.899 --> 02:20:53.399
They just fall off. That thing is so disgusting.

02:20:54.020 --> 02:20:57.409
How crazy is that? And David doesn't give a fuck.

02:20:57.610 --> 02:20:59.649
He's like, tape that bitch up. Keep running.

02:20:59.829 --> 02:21:04.649
He just doesn't care. He's so crazy that he had

02:21:04.649 --> 02:21:09.030
bone on bone on his knee where it was so bad

02:21:09.030 --> 02:21:12.270
that the bone was starting to deform. Oh, my

02:21:12.270 --> 02:21:14.069
God. And so you know what he did? What? He went

02:21:14.069 --> 02:21:18.170
in for an operation. They literally saw his bone,

02:21:18.450 --> 02:21:23.319
cut it down, and move it so it's parallel. Look

02:21:23.319 --> 02:21:26.940
at his other toe. His other toe. Insane. How

02:21:26.940 --> 02:21:29.319
do you know that's his other foot? Yeah. Look

02:21:29.319 --> 02:21:31.760
at it. Insane. Look at his toes. They're insane.

02:21:32.059 --> 02:21:33.879
Is that just for miles? I mean, surely he knows

02:21:33.879 --> 02:21:37.860
something about footwear. It's just the amount

02:21:37.860 --> 02:21:41.799
of hours and miles and the pain. And it's his

02:21:41.799 --> 02:21:44.579
mind. It's all in his mind. And that's what he

02:21:44.579 --> 02:21:47.680
works on. I mean, what he's doing when he's running

02:21:47.680 --> 02:21:52.010
like that is just. He's extracting the maximum

02:21:52.010 --> 02:21:55.090
amount of human potential out of what his mind

02:21:55.090 --> 02:21:57.469
and his body is capable of doing it, and then

02:21:57.469 --> 02:21:59.030
he goes to sleep and does it all. This is probably

02:21:59.030 --> 02:22:01.510
back when it started, 2016, when he had almost

02:22:01.510 --> 02:22:05.809
a full nail. Well, that's after 70 miles. In

02:22:05.809 --> 02:22:09.129
the snow. Minus 5 degrees, 8 inches of snow with

02:22:09.129 --> 02:22:11.950
standard running sneakers. Feet pay the price,

02:22:11.989 --> 02:22:14.129
obviously. Yeah, I think. He was in a reasonable

02:22:14.129 --> 02:22:17.700
position there. Jesus Christ. So that's no nail.

02:22:17.840 --> 02:22:19.639
That's his nail fell off there. Yeah, his nails

02:22:19.639 --> 02:22:21.500
fall off all the time. And he's doing a photo

02:22:21.500 --> 02:22:23.379
shoot. I would be like, give me to the hospital.

02:22:23.479 --> 02:22:25.139
Well, he wants everybody to know that this shit

02:22:25.139 --> 02:22:28.540
doesn't come free. And the knee, if you see his

02:22:28.540 --> 02:22:30.540
knee, find that image of his knee. Do you have

02:22:30.540 --> 02:22:33.250
that? I can find it if you don't have it. But

02:22:33.250 --> 02:22:36.190
the image of his knee like post -surgery is so

02:22:36.190 --> 02:22:38.829
gnarly. And I met him in Vegas. He's walking

02:22:38.829 --> 02:22:41.649
around with no limp. And then he pulls up his

02:22:41.649 --> 02:22:44.909
pant leg to show his leg. And he can take his

02:22:44.909 --> 02:22:47.569
fingers and just – he's got so much edema in

02:22:47.569 --> 02:22:49.690
his legs that he can just – look at that. Oh,

02:22:49.709 --> 02:22:51.510
that's his handprint. Yeah, that's his handprint.

02:22:51.569 --> 02:22:54.590
So he can grab and like smoosh all the tissue

02:22:54.590 --> 02:22:57.110
around his shin. So that's what his knee looked

02:22:57.110 --> 02:22:59.290
like. Oh, my goodness. Look at all those screws.

02:22:59.430 --> 02:23:02.120
So they see that. You could see that line. That

02:23:02.120 --> 02:23:05.680
line, they took like a wedge out of his knee

02:23:05.680 --> 02:23:09.559
and then had to cut it so that it was parallel.

02:23:09.920 --> 02:23:12.959
I see, yeah. Because one side of it had overgrown

02:23:12.959 --> 02:23:16.440
because he's just bone on bone. Yeah, osteophytes

02:23:16.440 --> 02:23:20.659
is the way the bone grows. That's the mind. I

02:23:20.659 --> 02:23:23.930
mean, that's just. The mind forcing the body

02:23:23.930 --> 02:23:27.090
to do what the mind wants it to do regardless

02:23:27.090 --> 02:23:30.629
of it. It's amazing what humans can do if they

02:23:30.629 --> 02:23:33.930
have to. Properly motivated. Yeah. But the thing

02:23:33.930 --> 02:23:35.329
is, he doesn't even have to. No, he doesn't have

02:23:35.329 --> 02:23:38.530
to. Yeah, he's trained that muscle to an incredible

02:23:38.530 --> 02:23:41.770
degree. He's so interesting. He's wealthy, but

02:23:41.770 --> 02:23:43.969
he doesn't even have a car. Really? Doesn't even

02:23:43.969 --> 02:23:45.809
own a car. Really? Doesn't buy a car. No. It's

02:23:45.809 --> 02:23:48.569
like, fuck it. My wife has a car. He just has

02:23:48.569 --> 02:23:50.610
all this money from his book. He has like $20

02:23:50.610 --> 02:23:54.030
million. Just runs every day. Torches himself.

02:23:54.530 --> 02:23:58.649
Lives Spartan. And just can't stop, won't stop.

02:23:59.129 --> 02:24:01.190
It's super inspirational for other people. That's

02:24:01.190 --> 02:24:03.209
the thing. It's like you don't have to be that

02:24:03.209 --> 02:24:07.129
to get benefit from what he's going through.

02:24:07.290 --> 02:24:09.450
Exactly. That's the thing. It's like what he's

02:24:09.450 --> 02:24:13.520
done is provide. millions of people with this

02:24:13.520 --> 02:24:17.420
unstoppable fuel right like this fuel for the

02:24:17.420 --> 02:24:20.040
body yeah and for the mind like you see like

02:24:20.040 --> 02:24:22.680
if david goggins can do it and he talks openly

02:24:22.680 --> 02:24:25.840
about how he used to be 300 pounds and he was

02:24:25.840 --> 02:24:29.719
lazy and then became this unstoppable force and

02:24:29.719 --> 02:24:32.319
he's just like you he's just like me he's just

02:24:32.319 --> 02:24:34.600
a person and he talks about his fears he talks

02:24:34.600 --> 02:24:37.659
about his anxieties he talks about his procrastination

02:24:37.659 --> 02:24:40.079
just doesn't let it get him doesn't let it get

02:24:40.079 --> 02:24:45.090
him keeps going It is amazing what the human

02:24:45.090 --> 02:24:47.850
body can do if the mind is on the same page.

02:24:48.049 --> 02:24:51.510
Right. And the fact that those people are out

02:24:51.510 --> 02:24:54.790
there, I mean, that kind of understanding of

02:24:54.790 --> 02:24:57.879
human potential. Yeah. that's got to fuel your

02:24:57.879 --> 02:24:59.940
work too, right? That's got to like fuel your

02:24:59.940 --> 02:25:01.479
creativity. Like when you're talking about a

02:25:01.479 --> 02:25:05.180
guy like Court Gentry, who's this insanely exceptional

02:25:05.180 --> 02:25:09.159
person, knowing that there's insanely exceptional

02:25:09.159 --> 02:25:11.459
people that are out there that are just like

02:25:11.459 --> 02:25:14.079
one of one, like a David Goggins. Yeah. Yeah,

02:25:14.100 --> 02:25:17.959
no, you know, there's... There was a farmer that

02:25:17.959 --> 02:25:19.540
a tree fell on his leg and he had cut his leg

02:25:19.540 --> 02:25:20.860
off. We're talking about stuff like that earlier

02:25:20.860 --> 02:25:23.680
and crawl, you know, like a mile. And you see

02:25:23.680 --> 02:25:25.659
these things and you go like, don't don't tell

02:25:25.659 --> 02:25:28.860
me what people say that like it's this it's unrealistic.

02:25:29.139 --> 02:25:31.200
It's like it's improbable. It's not unreal. You

02:25:31.200 --> 02:25:34.000
know, it's not impossible. And, you know, it's

02:25:34.000 --> 02:25:35.739
like I don't think there's anything in my books

02:25:35.739 --> 02:25:39.840
medically that that doesn't make sense. If you

02:25:39.840 --> 02:25:42.340
had the mindset to get through it and even in

02:25:42.340 --> 02:25:43.819
the first book, like he's shooting himself up

02:25:43.819 --> 02:25:46.190
with with. like veterinary drugs or something,

02:25:46.329 --> 02:25:48.930
I can't remember what, to get his heart rate

02:25:48.930 --> 02:25:50.950
back up for this final fight, even though it's

02:25:50.950 --> 02:25:52.930
going to make him bleed more. It's just like

02:25:52.930 --> 02:25:57.489
he's so goal -driven that that's the only thing

02:25:57.489 --> 02:25:59.690
that matters. What comes after doesn't matter.

02:26:00.010 --> 02:26:02.969
And you get that from seeing people that are

02:26:02.969 --> 02:26:05.610
just that committed. And you've read books, I'm

02:26:05.610 --> 02:26:09.670
sure you know about, like Hell Week and selection

02:26:09.670 --> 02:26:12.309
and assessment at Delta Force and stuff, and

02:26:12.309 --> 02:26:15.659
they just put you through. stuff that you know

02:26:15.659 --> 02:26:18.819
i couldn't do it but I can talk about it. Yeah.

02:26:19.260 --> 02:26:22.979
Is that a weird part of the imposter syndrome?

02:26:23.100 --> 02:26:24.780
It's like because you're writing, you're kind

02:26:24.780 --> 02:26:27.819
of embodying this character. Yeah. And then you

02:26:27.819 --> 02:26:29.739
have to have to kind of compare yourself to who

02:26:29.739 --> 02:26:32.959
this human being is. Yeah. And the fact that

02:26:32.959 --> 02:26:36.799
I don't have military experience, you know, I

02:26:36.799 --> 02:26:39.459
tried to make up for it by like learning specifics

02:26:39.459 --> 02:26:42.100
and stuff like that. And honestly, people in

02:26:42.100 --> 02:26:45.020
the military love my books, but people on. I've

02:26:45.020 --> 02:26:47.680
heard from people on FBI hostage rescue team

02:26:47.680 --> 02:26:50.180
that love something when I wrote about them and

02:26:50.180 --> 02:26:51.840
I don't know any of them. You know, it's just

02:26:51.840 --> 02:26:54.819
like I hear about it after the fact. I think

02:26:54.819 --> 02:26:58.760
I was a ghostwriter for a book of a guy that

02:26:58.760 --> 02:27:03.479
was a military dude early in my career. And he's

02:27:03.479 --> 02:27:05.959
a brilliant guy. And I'm really proud of the

02:27:05.959 --> 02:27:10.450
book. But he. He would just be telling me stories.

02:27:10.690 --> 02:27:12.829
And the thing that he might have been focused

02:27:12.829 --> 02:27:14.790
on in the story wasn't the interesting thing

02:27:14.790 --> 02:27:16.430
to me. I'd be like, wait, what did you say about

02:27:16.430 --> 02:27:20.010
how you took Makarov's off of a dead Taliban

02:27:20.010 --> 02:27:23.530
guy? Or just some little ancillary thing. So

02:27:23.530 --> 02:27:25.250
it's kind of like what I bring to the table is,

02:27:25.370 --> 02:27:29.049
I mean, fanboy or whatever. It's some sort of

02:27:29.049 --> 02:27:34.149
like a buddy of mine who's a SWAT. He was showing

02:27:34.149 --> 02:27:35.649
me pictures of some breaching they were doing

02:27:35.649 --> 02:27:37.170
and all this other stuff. And then I was like,

02:27:37.250 --> 02:27:40.389
wait, why did you blow a hole in that wall there?

02:27:40.489 --> 02:27:41.809
He's like, oh, we're just making a gun port because

02:27:41.809 --> 02:27:43.149
there was an angle. And then he starts talking

02:27:43.149 --> 02:27:44.569
about something else. I was like, go back to

02:27:44.569 --> 02:27:46.729
the gun port. Explain that to me. And then it's

02:27:46.729 --> 02:27:48.389
just like that works its way into his book because

02:27:48.389 --> 02:27:50.670
it's like there's the nugget that I've never

02:27:50.670 --> 02:27:52.809
heard of that I need to know details and why

02:27:52.809 --> 02:27:54.809
that would do that. And it's like that's what

02:27:54.809 --> 02:27:57.049
I want to incorporate in the book. So, you know,

02:27:57.049 --> 02:27:59.069
asking the right questions. I got to fly in an

02:27:59.069 --> 02:28:02.850
F -18 last year. which was an amazing experience,

02:28:02.989 --> 02:28:05.850
obviously very rare for a civilian, but every

02:28:05.850 --> 02:28:07.389
little thing about it, you know, like what the

02:28:07.389 --> 02:28:10.209
air. smelled and tasted like and you know like

02:28:10.209 --> 02:28:11.809
what it felt like i get to fly a little bit and

02:28:11.809 --> 02:28:13.870
you know just every little bit of that you know

02:28:13.870 --> 02:28:16.190
works its way into the books and you know sometimes

02:28:16.190 --> 02:28:17.750
it's mundane stuff but sometimes it's really

02:28:17.750 --> 02:28:21.350
cool stuff how difficult it is it how difficult

02:28:21.350 --> 02:28:24.069
is it to when you're writing stuff about like

02:28:24.069 --> 02:28:26.590
international policy and you're writing stuff

02:28:26.590 --> 02:28:30.790
about like how people would be deployed and how

02:28:30.790 --> 02:28:32.909
like a special operations group would be deployed

02:28:32.909 --> 02:28:37.819
how difficult is it to kind of even get read

02:28:37.819 --> 02:28:41.319
of what would go on like some of it is I'm sure

02:28:41.319 --> 02:28:44.420
classified a lot of it's classified and so there

02:28:44.420 --> 02:28:47.600
is this point where I just make stuff up but

02:28:47.600 --> 02:28:50.500
I I try and build with as much detail as possible

02:28:50.500 --> 02:28:52.920
I mean I have I have this book called the US

02:28:52.920 --> 02:28:54.860
Intelligence Committee it's like onion skin paper

02:28:54.860 --> 02:28:56.819
and it's like that thick and it's like every

02:28:56.819 --> 02:28:59.280
unit every everything that's not denied or sub

02:28:59.280 --> 02:29:04.760
Rosa and What's Sub Rosa? Just denied, you know,

02:29:04.780 --> 02:29:06.600
like black ops or, you know, like things that

02:29:06.600 --> 02:29:09.399
they don't admit. I don't know why they call

02:29:09.399 --> 02:29:12.040
it Sub Rosa, but it's like under the red. I don't

02:29:12.040 --> 02:29:15.219
know what that means. But anyway, it's things

02:29:15.219 --> 02:29:19.940
that they don't, you know, admit to doing. And,

02:29:19.940 --> 02:29:23.659
you know, there's secrecy. Sub Rosa literally

02:29:23.659 --> 02:29:28.420
means. Under the Rose in New Latin. Since ancient

02:29:28.420 --> 02:29:30.540
times, the rose has often been associated with

02:29:30.540 --> 02:29:33.579
secrecy. In ancient mythology, Cupid gave a rose

02:29:33.579 --> 02:29:37.459
to Hippocrates, the god of silence, to keep him

02:29:37.459 --> 02:29:40.000
from telling about the indiscretions of Venus.

02:29:40.680 --> 02:29:44.690
Harpocrates. Interesting. Yeah. It's just a term

02:29:44.690 --> 02:29:47.010
they use in the government a lot for something

02:29:47.010 --> 02:29:48.790
that's, you know. You have to learn all those

02:29:48.790 --> 02:29:50.770
terms, too, which is interesting in Sierra Six,

02:29:50.989 --> 02:29:53.670
where court who doesn't have a military background

02:29:53.670 --> 02:29:56.350
gets integrated with this group that does. Yeah.

02:29:56.370 --> 02:29:58.750
When you go back 12 years. Yeah. And, you know,

02:29:58.770 --> 02:30:00.569
he's got to kind of learn all those phrases.

02:30:00.610 --> 02:30:02.370
Right. And they're all frustrated that he doesn't

02:30:02.370 --> 02:30:03.610
know what the fuck he's talking about. Yeah.

02:30:03.610 --> 02:30:04.889
Yeah. I mean, he literally doesn't know what

02:30:04.889 --> 02:30:07.049
they call the, you know, the mess hall or whatever,

02:30:07.209 --> 02:30:09.190
you know, these different names for different

02:30:09.190 --> 02:30:12.729
things. Yeah. Because he wouldn't. I wrote him

02:30:12.729 --> 02:30:14.670
in the beginning, like the wars were going on

02:30:14.670 --> 02:30:16.569
and I knew that, you know, there's going to be

02:30:16.569 --> 02:30:18.889
a lot of really good authors writing this stuff

02:30:18.889 --> 02:30:22.010
that are downrange right now. And I ain't one

02:30:22.010 --> 02:30:26.290
of them, sadly. But, you know, I was like, I

02:30:26.290 --> 02:30:27.909
want my guy to be different. Everybody was a

02:30:27.909 --> 02:30:29.649
Navy SEAL at that point. And this was before

02:30:29.649 --> 02:30:31.870
bin Laden, you know, everybody was a Navy SEAL

02:30:31.870 --> 02:30:35.190
and in every book. And I wanted somebody that

02:30:35.190 --> 02:30:36.930
not only wasn't a Navy SEAL, didn't even really

02:30:36.930 --> 02:30:40.309
have that background. So his backstory is, is

02:30:40.309 --> 02:30:43.559
that his father, was a police officer that ran

02:30:43.559 --> 02:30:47.579
a firearms training school in florida and uh

02:30:47.579 --> 02:30:52.399
and he court as a child was in these shoot houses

02:30:52.399 --> 02:30:55.459
with these people and then he you know grew and

02:30:55.459 --> 02:30:58.520
grew and grew fired you know tens of thousands

02:30:58.520 --> 02:31:00.659
of rounds a month and all this other stuff and

02:31:00.659 --> 02:31:03.840
just turned him into something else yeah it's

02:31:03.840 --> 02:31:07.139
a very interesting storyline it's a very interesting

02:31:07.139 --> 02:31:09.180
origin story thanks you know because it's very

02:31:09.180 --> 02:31:11.760
different yeah i just wanted different you know

02:31:11.760 --> 02:31:15.340
and um and then i i do think it it narratively

02:31:15.340 --> 02:31:18.920
it adds to the story that he's not you know seal

02:31:18.920 --> 02:31:20.459
team six and doesn't have a bunch of buddies

02:31:20.459 --> 02:31:23.639
you know that are team guys and the guys on his

02:31:24.239 --> 02:31:27.500
paramilitary team in Special Activities Division

02:31:27.500 --> 02:31:30.319
in Sierra Six. They don't like him at all. They

02:31:30.319 --> 02:31:33.219
don't get why he's there. But he's there because

02:31:33.219 --> 02:31:36.059
he's been an assassin for the CIA since he was

02:31:36.059 --> 02:31:39.219
20 and had done some operations in Russia and

02:31:39.219 --> 02:31:41.620
they needed a guy on the ground that had a certain

02:31:41.620 --> 02:31:45.540
level of tradecraft abilities that these former

02:31:45.540 --> 02:31:49.299
SEALs. Didn't have. So he's forced into the team.

02:31:49.340 --> 02:31:50.579
He doesn't want to do it. They don't want him

02:31:50.579 --> 02:31:52.899
to do it. But he's also a guy that's not going

02:31:52.899 --> 02:31:54.639
to give up. He's going to die before he gives

02:31:54.639 --> 02:31:57.940
up. Do you ever run plot lines and things that

02:31:57.940 --> 02:32:01.440
you're writing about past people that may know

02:32:01.440 --> 02:32:04.819
the way those things are handled and done and

02:32:04.819 --> 02:32:06.520
see if you're doing it correctly? Yeah, yeah.

02:32:06.600 --> 02:32:09.559
I've talked to CIA guys regularly or military

02:32:09.559 --> 02:32:12.299
people. And, you know, I always hear, you know,

02:32:12.340 --> 02:32:15.750
here's the nonclassified. or here's what I can

02:32:15.750 --> 02:32:18.729
tell you. I've been sitting at the Pentagon and

02:32:18.729 --> 02:32:21.110
I've asked a question. You went to the Pentagon?

02:32:21.389 --> 02:32:23.610
A few times, yeah. Really? Yeah. So they bring

02:32:23.610 --> 02:32:26.360
you in? Yeah, I've been there. Hey, Mark, come

02:32:26.360 --> 02:32:28.340
on down. We want to talk to you. Yeah, the first

02:32:28.340 --> 02:32:30.260
book I did with Tom Clancy, I wasn't allowed

02:32:30.260 --> 02:32:32.360
to say that I was working with Tom Clancy because

02:32:32.360 --> 02:32:34.340
they didn't know if the book was going to be

02:32:34.340 --> 02:32:37.260
good or come out or whatever. So it was so frustrating

02:32:37.260 --> 02:32:39.100
because it's like, I mean, they're going like,

02:32:39.120 --> 02:32:41.379
hi, I'd like to talk to somebody about something.

02:32:41.860 --> 02:32:43.940
And they just meet with you? I've written these

02:32:43.940 --> 02:32:45.680
paperbacks. Yeah, I mean, it's not like I'm talking

02:32:45.680 --> 02:32:47.700
to the generals or anything like that. But I

02:32:47.700 --> 02:32:52.040
mean, it's, yeah, there's. I've been on, gosh,

02:32:52.100 --> 02:32:54.360
I've been at Camp Pendleton in California and

02:32:54.360 --> 02:32:57.340
the Navy Base San Diego, got on the destroyer,

02:32:57.360 --> 02:33:01.200
got to go out to the A -10 thing at Nellis Air

02:33:01.200 --> 02:33:05.020
Force where the warthogs. I've had some really

02:33:05.020 --> 02:33:07.579
amazing experiences, and it's all kind of non

02:33:07.579 --> 02:33:10.540
-classified. There's public information officers

02:33:10.540 --> 02:33:15.180
with each thing in the military, and you go through

02:33:15.180 --> 02:33:18.379
them. Or in some examples, I've just known a

02:33:18.379 --> 02:33:20.889
guy. My buddy Rip that I wrote the book with,

02:33:20.989 --> 02:33:24.469
who now incidentally has his own foundation in

02:33:24.469 --> 02:33:27.010
Ukraine and is supporting a battalion of foreign

02:33:27.010 --> 02:33:29.469
fighters in Ukraine. He's spent his entire career

02:33:29.469 --> 02:33:32.409
as a Marine Corps officer, retired. And then

02:33:32.409 --> 02:33:34.909
this war with Russia kicks off and he's over

02:33:34.909 --> 02:33:37.530
there trying to support, you know, the war effort.

02:33:38.450 --> 02:33:40.989
But, you know, he was just a guy I met at the

02:33:40.989 --> 02:33:44.770
Pentagon. Wow. And he came from there. But yeah,

02:33:44.829 --> 02:33:47.540
no, I didn't even. How does that conversation

02:33:47.540 --> 02:33:49.340
even get, like, how do you get in the Pentagon?

02:33:50.479 --> 02:33:52.379
I mean, it's happened a few different ways. I

02:33:52.379 --> 02:33:56.600
had a guy, a friend of my brother's was a Marine

02:33:56.600 --> 02:33:59.120
at one point, and he put me in contact with a

02:33:59.120 --> 02:34:01.559
Marine aviation guy, and he was going to be at

02:34:01.559 --> 02:34:03.420
the Pentagon, and I went up there and saw him.

02:34:03.639 --> 02:34:06.979
And Rip was a guy that liked my books, and we

02:34:06.979 --> 02:34:08.479
were talking, and he just said he worked at the

02:34:08.479 --> 02:34:10.280
Pentagon. And I'm like, I'm in D .C. all the

02:34:10.280 --> 02:34:13.190
time. You know, I'd love to come up there. And

02:34:13.190 --> 02:34:16.729
and we did it that way. So I've met CIA guys,

02:34:16.790 --> 02:34:19.469
former CIA guys. I've met people that say there's

02:34:19.469 --> 02:34:21.229
something and you kind of figure out after a

02:34:21.229 --> 02:34:23.850
while. No, they're not. You know, they're kind

02:34:23.850 --> 02:34:26.530
of like, oh, no. Yeah, it's funny. There's a

02:34:26.530 --> 02:34:30.209
term for it that a buddy of mine. It's called,

02:34:30.209 --> 02:34:32.250
he calls it institutional puffery. It's like

02:34:32.250 --> 02:34:35.170
these guys actually are somebody, but they're

02:34:35.170 --> 02:34:36.989
making themselves out like, you know, they're

02:34:36.989 --> 02:34:38.729
the one that killed bin Laden. They're the, you

02:34:38.729 --> 02:34:40.309
know, they're the guy that, you know. Institutional

02:34:40.309 --> 02:34:42.510
puffery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that term.

02:34:42.649 --> 02:34:47.569
Yeah, Scott Swanson. It's like people that are

02:34:47.569 --> 02:34:49.790
legit and they're badass, but they're not badass

02:34:49.790 --> 02:34:52.309
enough for themselves for this story, you know.

02:34:52.510 --> 02:34:55.129
My buddy Brad Taylor, who's a fantastic thriller

02:34:55.129 --> 02:34:58.379
author, a former Delta guy. army special mission

02:34:58.379 --> 02:35:01.000
unit guy he he's like you know you never meet

02:35:01.000 --> 02:35:03.079
a parachute rigger for delta force like everybody

02:35:03.079 --> 02:35:05.700
you meet is a is an operator for delta force

02:35:05.700 --> 02:35:07.500
you know it's just like this is a lot of baloney

02:35:07.500 --> 02:35:10.840
about what people say um you know he's like yeah

02:35:10.840 --> 02:35:13.260
we loved our parachute riggers but no one ever

02:35:13.260 --> 02:35:15.139
says they're that's what they did they're always

02:35:15.139 --> 02:35:18.200
like yeah isn't delta it is an interesting thing

02:35:18.200 --> 02:35:20.040
like the motivation that people have to puff

02:35:20.040 --> 02:35:25.319
themselves yeah yeah yeah and i'm i think one

02:35:25.319 --> 02:35:28.920
of my Real talents is that I like to be the least

02:35:28.920 --> 02:35:30.920
interesting guy in the room because I like to

02:35:30.920 --> 02:35:33.420
just learn from from other people. And, you know,

02:35:33.440 --> 02:35:36.979
it's just fascinating to me. I don't need anything.

02:35:37.040 --> 02:35:40.200
And so if somebody was a parachute rigger for

02:35:40.200 --> 02:35:41.979
Delta Force, that would be the most fascinating

02:35:41.979 --> 02:35:44.399
person that I could talk to. Probably. It is

02:35:44.399 --> 02:35:47.719
interesting. Yeah. It's every job in that regard,

02:35:47.799 --> 02:35:50.530
especially. And that space is very interesting.

02:35:50.610 --> 02:35:52.750
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I have such

02:35:52.750 --> 02:35:55.969
respect for the men and women that, you know,

02:35:55.969 --> 02:35:58.569
go and serve their country because I've met 20

02:35:58.569 --> 02:36:02.729
year old female on a destroyer who her job to

02:36:02.729 --> 02:36:06.129
bring the helicopters in, you know, and you're

02:36:06.129 --> 02:36:08.530
just like, wow, when I was 20, what was I doing?

02:36:08.649 --> 02:36:10.950
I was not doing that. Yeah, I wasn't, you know,

02:36:10.989 --> 02:36:15.899
like. responsible for a ship and an airframe

02:36:15.899 --> 02:36:18.600
meeting up at the same place at the same time

02:36:18.600 --> 02:36:22.440
on a deck, a moving deck. That's one of the things

02:36:22.440 --> 02:36:26.819
that the military and special operations in particular

02:36:26.819 --> 02:36:28.959
does is it makes extraordinary human beings.

02:36:29.180 --> 02:36:32.579
Those people that can do that job and who have

02:36:32.579 --> 02:36:34.700
been there, they're just very different than

02:36:34.700 --> 02:36:37.329
most people that you meet. They're very unique

02:36:37.329 --> 02:36:39.930
and very – they're just strong. They just have

02:36:39.930 --> 02:36:42.270
a different kind of character. There's a different

02:36:42.270 --> 02:36:44.770
level, a requirement of them that's so different

02:36:44.770 --> 02:36:49.049
than the average person that to not know them,

02:36:49.229 --> 02:36:52.950
to not know that that's even a thing is – it's

02:36:52.950 --> 02:36:55.129
really unfortunate for a lot of people. They

02:36:55.129 --> 02:36:57.549
don't know the potential that some humans have

02:36:57.549 --> 02:37:01.350
and that they have – oftentimes this potential

02:37:01.350 --> 02:37:06.139
only arises out of extreme need. Out of those

02:37:06.139 --> 02:37:08.299
kind of jobs and those kind of requirements.

02:37:08.459 --> 02:37:10.899
Yeah. I mean, the whole point of Hell Week for

02:37:10.899 --> 02:37:13.879
Navy SEALs is to get you to believe because it's

02:37:13.879 --> 02:37:16.120
like, you know, we're going to give you every

02:37:16.120 --> 02:37:19.340
reason. So what's left are the people that are

02:37:19.340 --> 02:37:21.600
like, you can kill me and I'm not going to quit.

02:37:21.639 --> 02:37:24.399
And I have such respect for that. I don't think

02:37:24.399 --> 02:37:25.979
I could stay awake for five days. That's the

02:37:25.979 --> 02:37:27.760
thing that like out of all the stuff they do,

02:37:27.860 --> 02:37:31.180
I'm going like, man, I'm tired. I'm tired. But

02:37:31.180 --> 02:37:34.959
I mean, you know, it's incredible what they go

02:37:34.959 --> 02:37:39.079
through. Yeah. Do you feel like a responsibility

02:37:39.079 --> 02:37:42.059
when you're writing to sort of reflect that,

02:37:42.159 --> 02:37:44.719
that you have such a deep respect for these people,

02:37:44.799 --> 02:37:47.959
that you have to write that in a way that sort

02:37:47.959 --> 02:37:51.559
of portrays that in an accurate sense? Yeah,

02:37:51.600 --> 02:37:54.139
absolutely. And, you know, I've had villains

02:37:54.139 --> 02:37:57.420
who are. U .S. military or U .S. government people

02:37:57.420 --> 02:38:00.260
or stuff like that and I've had people like complain

02:38:00.260 --> 02:38:02.479
about that you know like they they want all the

02:38:02.479 --> 02:38:05.219
bad guys to have accents you know like can't

02:38:05.219 --> 02:38:07.059
be Americans but I mean it's just like you know

02:38:07.059 --> 02:38:11.059
there's there's there are all walks of life all

02:38:11.059 --> 02:38:14.299
over the place you know there's but I I do feel

02:38:14.299 --> 02:38:17.459
a responsibility to again it's sort of the fanboy

02:38:17.459 --> 02:38:19.760
in me it's like I have such respect for for these

02:38:19.760 --> 02:38:22.520
people and what they do and And, you know, the

02:38:22.520 --> 02:38:25.479
responsibility they have often at very young

02:38:25.479 --> 02:38:29.239
ages, you know, and it's a fascinating thing

02:38:29.239 --> 02:38:32.280
to me to write about and to talk about. And again,

02:38:32.459 --> 02:38:36.760
it's just I like to build stories around reality

02:38:36.760 --> 02:38:39.540
and then at some point go off, you know, where

02:38:39.540 --> 02:38:43.559
the guy's jumping off of. airplane and without

02:38:43.559 --> 02:38:46.139
a parachute and finding a way down. When you're

02:38:46.139 --> 02:38:52.299
researching villains and corruption, have you

02:38:52.299 --> 02:38:54.680
met with people that are corrupt? Have you met

02:38:54.680 --> 02:38:57.920
with real villains? Are you just getting this

02:38:57.920 --> 02:39:02.120
from your imagination? No, I haven't. A lot of

02:39:02.120 --> 02:39:08.430
reading. My new book involves russian mafia slash

02:39:08.430 --> 02:39:10.129
russian government which are one in the same

02:39:10.129 --> 02:39:13.809
in my opinion and um and so i was i'm looking

02:39:13.809 --> 02:39:16.010
at real cases i actually had finished the book

02:39:16.010 --> 02:39:18.870
and it involves americans who are being influenced

02:39:18.870 --> 02:39:21.790
by russia or taking money from russian foreign

02:39:21.790 --> 02:39:25.129
intelligence and um americans in government and

02:39:25.129 --> 02:39:30.370
um just a couple weeks ago this guy in fbi guy

02:39:30.370 --> 02:39:33.729
in new york who's like headed counterterrorism

02:39:33.729 --> 02:39:35.729
at one point, but he was also involved in the

02:39:35.729 --> 02:39:39.569
sanctions, Russian sanctions. He just got indicted

02:39:39.569 --> 02:39:41.870
for taking money from Oleg Deribovsky, which

02:39:41.870 --> 02:39:45.270
is one of the oligarchs that, you know, Putin

02:39:45.270 --> 02:39:48.659
supports or supports Putin or both. you know,

02:39:48.659 --> 02:39:51.600
these things happen. And they just caught a Russian

02:39:51.600 --> 02:39:55.600
GRU guy that was about to intern at the International

02:39:55.600 --> 02:39:59.139
Criminal Court in The Hague. And they just caught

02:39:59.139 --> 02:40:02.219
a German BND, the German Foreign Intelligence,

02:40:02.399 --> 02:40:07.899
Bundesnachrichtendienst, guy who had been spying

02:40:07.899 --> 02:40:11.120
for the Russians for a long time. And, like,

02:40:11.180 --> 02:40:12.600
all that stuff's really fascinating to me. So

02:40:12.600 --> 02:40:16.559
I want to learn about it as much as I can and

02:40:16.559 --> 02:40:19.139
then write a fictional, You know, version of

02:40:19.139 --> 02:40:20.879
it. And I'd actually written this book before

02:40:20.879 --> 02:40:23.239
these three things came out. But I mean, the

02:40:23.239 --> 02:40:24.559
Russians have been doing stuff like that for

02:40:24.559 --> 02:40:27.700
a while. Yeah, it's disturbing when you find

02:40:27.700 --> 02:40:30.479
someone like that. You know, like there was is

02:40:30.479 --> 02:40:32.739
this the same guy, the guy that was a part of

02:40:32.739 --> 02:40:37.100
going after Trump for Russiagate, where it turned

02:40:37.100 --> 02:40:40.360
out that he was actually and he got indicted

02:40:40.360 --> 02:40:44.819
for conspiring with Russia. The American guy?

02:40:44.899 --> 02:40:46.659
Yeah, do you know that guy? Yeah, yeah. The most

02:40:46.659 --> 02:40:51.440
recent one? Yeah, not Manafort. Jamie, see if

02:40:51.440 --> 02:40:52.959
we can find that guy. Do you know what I'm talking

02:40:52.959 --> 02:40:54.840
about? You know it. I'm not quite sure what you

02:40:54.840 --> 02:40:57.479
said. There was a gentleman that was involved

02:40:57.479 --> 02:41:00.979
in Russiagate, involved in going after Trump

02:41:00.979 --> 02:41:04.319
for his ties with Russia, and it turns out that

02:41:04.319 --> 02:41:07.040
he was colluding with Russia and that he was.

02:41:07.840 --> 02:41:11.579
either colluding with oligarchs or there was

02:41:11.579 --> 02:41:13.659
something involved and he was recently indicted.

02:41:14.219 --> 02:41:16.340
That might be the same guy because it was an

02:41:16.340 --> 02:41:19.120
oligarch connection. Yeah, probably the same

02:41:19.120 --> 02:41:20.780
guy. That's the people that have the money outside

02:41:20.780 --> 02:41:22.860
of the U .S. I mean outside of Russia. So those

02:41:22.860 --> 02:41:24.239
are the people that are going to be paying you

02:41:24.239 --> 02:41:26.340
off. Yeah, that was one of the more wild things

02:41:26.340 --> 02:41:27.760
about the beginning of the Ukraine war where

02:41:27.760 --> 02:41:29.219
they were going after the oligarchs and taking

02:41:29.219 --> 02:41:31.360
their yachts. Yeah, yeah. I was like, well, that's

02:41:31.360 --> 02:41:33.860
fascinating. Well, my book, Burner, opens with

02:41:33.860 --> 02:41:36.680
Cort blowing up Russian yachts just as something

02:41:36.680 --> 02:41:41.360
to do, just as a side gig. And then he gets pulled

02:41:41.360 --> 02:41:43.889
into the main part of the story. Yeah, I was

02:41:43.889 --> 02:41:47.049
down in St. Lucia researching it, and these people

02:41:47.049 --> 02:41:50.290
came ashore in some kind of a tender from a big

02:41:50.290 --> 02:41:53.389
yacht. They were all Russian. I don't know anything

02:41:53.389 --> 02:41:54.969
about their story. They could have been totally

02:41:54.969 --> 02:41:56.670
on the up and up, but I'm like, that's fascinating.

02:41:56.969 --> 02:42:00.479
The war had been going on for a few months. But

02:42:00.479 --> 02:42:03.020
those boats are still out there. Well, the Russian

02:42:03.020 --> 02:42:05.540
thing is so fascinating in general, right? You

02:42:05.540 --> 02:42:09.760
have Putin, who's this former KGB guy who's in

02:42:09.760 --> 02:42:13.040
charge of the entire country, and all the oligarchs

02:42:13.040 --> 02:42:15.959
have to be with him. Yeah, they're 100 % with

02:42:15.959 --> 02:42:18.860
him. They hold his money, and he allows them

02:42:18.860 --> 02:42:21.319
to do what they do, and they allow him to do

02:42:21.319 --> 02:42:24.340
what he does. And, you know, the war isn't affecting

02:42:24.340 --> 02:42:30.629
their children or anything like that. The stands

02:42:30.629 --> 02:42:33.430
are, you know, like somewhere out in Siberia.

02:42:33.469 --> 02:42:35.329
Those are the ones that are getting thrown into

02:42:35.329 --> 02:42:37.549
the meat grinder or prisoners or things like

02:42:37.549 --> 02:42:41.510
that that they're doing. And so, you know, Putin

02:42:41.510 --> 02:42:45.250
knows how to protect his, you know, the people

02:42:45.250 --> 02:42:48.110
that support him and he supports. And it's, you

02:42:48.110 --> 02:42:50.170
know, it's a mafia. It's a kleptocracy. He's

02:42:50.170 --> 02:42:53.649
an autocratic, you know, kleptocrat. And it's

02:42:53.649 --> 02:42:57.530
just it's a criminal enterprise. And he doesn't

02:42:57.530 --> 02:43:02.209
care how many people. You know, he will continue.

02:43:02.309 --> 02:43:05.149
They're just putting waves of people through

02:43:05.149 --> 02:43:07.409
with no training. They had this mobilization

02:43:07.409 --> 02:43:10.250
last fall, and tens of thousands of them are

02:43:10.250 --> 02:43:12.819
just running across fields getting killed. It's

02:43:12.819 --> 02:43:15.540
World War I stuff. It's awful. Not only that,

02:43:15.659 --> 02:43:19.139
they have a crematorium, a traveling crematorium.

02:43:19.319 --> 02:43:22.020
So they're literally just throwing these bodies

02:43:22.020 --> 02:43:25.500
into the burner, and they're not giving any sort

02:43:25.500 --> 02:43:28.379
of an account of how many losses. There's a report

02:43:28.379 --> 02:43:32.620
that some Wagner troops were stacking their dead

02:43:32.620 --> 02:43:36.079
guys up as basically sandbags. And, you know,

02:43:36.139 --> 02:43:39.780
that's pretty awful if you think about it. This

02:43:39.780 --> 02:43:43.479
is a horrible war. Putin really miscalculated.

02:43:43.899 --> 02:43:47.059
People in FSB told him what he wanted to hear,

02:43:47.219 --> 02:43:50.899
and they were supposed to be setting up influence

02:43:50.899 --> 02:43:52.940
operations in Ukraine for years and years, but

02:43:52.940 --> 02:43:56.000
they've been stealing the money. And then when

02:43:56.000 --> 02:43:58.159
he said, you know, is this now the right time

02:43:58.159 --> 02:44:00.340
to do it? They basically said, sure it is. And

02:44:00.340 --> 02:44:04.159
things went really bad. Their fifth service in

02:44:04.159 --> 02:44:08.629
FSB does the foreign stuff. I think really dropped

02:44:08.629 --> 02:44:11.170
the ball and not dropped the ball. I'm glad they

02:44:11.170 --> 02:44:13.409
dropped the ball. But I mean, they they told

02:44:13.409 --> 02:44:15.549
him what he wanted to hear. I mean, if you're

02:44:15.549 --> 02:44:19.069
an autocrat like that, you value loyalty over

02:44:19.069 --> 02:44:21.549
competence and you've got to have loyalty. People

02:44:21.549 --> 02:44:22.950
don't have to be competent, but they've got to

02:44:22.950 --> 02:44:26.590
be loyal for you to survive. And so as these

02:44:26.590 --> 02:44:28.809
incompetent people that were all stealing from

02:44:28.809 --> 02:44:31.370
the government and they were also. telling him.

02:44:31.569 --> 02:44:33.649
It was kind of this feedback loop. He was hearing

02:44:33.649 --> 02:44:35.729
what he wanted to hear. That's part of the problem,

02:44:35.770 --> 02:44:37.030
too, right, that they're hearing what they want

02:44:37.030 --> 02:44:38.770
to hear because people are terrified to tell

02:44:38.770 --> 02:44:40.829
them bad news. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't want

02:44:40.829 --> 02:44:44.129
to go to Putin and say, yeah, we can't do this.

02:44:44.270 --> 02:44:45.850
They say it's the same thing with Xi Jinping,

02:44:46.129 --> 02:44:49.229
that nobody wants to tell him the bad news, so

02:44:49.229 --> 02:44:50.989
he doesn't even find out about things that went

02:44:50.989 --> 02:44:53.690
wrong until quite a while later. Yeah, and I

02:44:53.690 --> 02:44:56.969
imagine that's... Throughout history has always

02:44:56.969 --> 02:44:59.069
been the case for those type of leaders, sadly.

02:44:59.229 --> 02:45:01.750
When you're writing about all this stuff, it's

02:45:01.750 --> 02:45:05.489
I mean, it's such a complex and nuanced landscape

02:45:05.489 --> 02:45:10.629
that you're interacting with. Like how that's

02:45:10.629 --> 02:45:12.770
got to be one of the most difficult parts of

02:45:12.770 --> 02:45:15.149
the job is like incorporating these fictional

02:45:15.149 --> 02:45:17.909
narratives in with this sort of very realistic

02:45:17.909 --> 02:45:22.799
world of espionage and crime. Yeah. Finding out

02:45:22.799 --> 02:45:25.520
what to use and what to leave out is really,

02:45:25.659 --> 02:45:27.840
really hard because I will be very fascinated

02:45:27.840 --> 02:45:29.600
with something. And I'm like, it really doesn't

02:45:29.600 --> 02:45:32.340
push the narrative forward. And early in my career,

02:45:32.379 --> 02:45:34.280
I would read these like really dry government

02:45:34.280 --> 02:45:37.420
documents about this thing. And I wanted to prove

02:45:37.420 --> 02:45:39.760
that I read it by throwing stuff into the story.

02:45:39.860 --> 02:45:42.920
And my editor would save me from that. Now I'm

02:45:42.920 --> 02:45:45.639
now I'm self -correcting in that matter. But,

02:45:45.639 --> 02:45:50.430
yeah, you do. There's so much information. But

02:45:50.430 --> 02:45:55.309
what really makes me enjoy my books is while

02:45:55.309 --> 02:45:57.930
I'm doing the research by myself, I come across

02:45:57.930 --> 02:46:00.510
something and I go like, holy shit, people need

02:46:00.510 --> 02:46:02.450
to know about this. And I'm not trying to preach.

02:46:02.590 --> 02:46:04.250
I'm not trying to give anybody a political view

02:46:04.250 --> 02:46:06.870
or anything. But it's like this happened. And

02:46:06.870 --> 02:46:08.430
so I'm going to do a version of this. And I've

02:46:08.430 --> 02:46:10.739
actually had. People complain about my books,

02:46:10.780 --> 02:46:13.500
and they'll be like, well, there's no way a liberal

02:46:13.500 --> 02:46:19.659
female lawyer would support an al -Qaeda guy

02:46:19.659 --> 02:46:23.360
in prison. And I'm like, okay, here's a picture

02:46:23.360 --> 02:46:26.040
of her. I changed her name. I changed a couple

02:46:26.040 --> 02:46:28.440
of details, but the actual real person that was

02:46:28.440 --> 02:46:33.219
doing that is now in prison. So I like to take

02:46:33.219 --> 02:46:35.700
as much from reality as I can because that's

02:46:35.700 --> 02:46:38.479
all interesting to me, and then, again, fictionalize

02:46:38.479 --> 02:46:41.229
it. get wacko with it at some point and then

02:46:41.229 --> 02:46:43.149
try and rein it back in a little. Well, Mark,

02:46:43.229 --> 02:46:45.250
you do a great job. They're very captivating

02:46:45.250 --> 02:46:47.989
books. I enjoy them very much. And I just want

02:46:47.989 --> 02:46:50.149
to say thank you for coming in here. Congratulations

02:46:50.149 --> 02:46:52.729
on all your success. Thank you. Looking forward

02:46:52.729 --> 02:46:54.670
to your next books. I appreciate it. This is

02:46:54.670 --> 02:46:56.729
a great opportunity for me. My pleasure. My pleasure.

02:46:56.950 --> 02:46:59.649
So anybody who wants to get these, they're all

02:46:59.649 --> 02:47:03.190
available. How many books do you have now that

02:47:03.190 --> 02:47:05.840
are Gray Man books? The 12th. This is the 12th

02:47:05.840 --> 02:47:08.000
one, and it comes out? It comes out February

02:47:08.000 --> 02:47:11.420
21st. Oh, so real close. Next week? Yep. Oh,

02:47:11.520 --> 02:47:17.799
nice. And so I got an advance copy. And you're

02:47:17.799 --> 02:47:20.819
probably already working on the next one? Yeah.

02:47:20.940 --> 02:47:22.799
How deep are you in the next one? I'm about 40

02:47:22.799 --> 02:47:25.399
,000 words into the next one. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

02:47:25.540 --> 02:47:27.299
Thank you for coming. Well, again, congratulations,

02:47:27.340 --> 02:47:29.340
and thanks for coming, man. I really appreciate

02:47:29.340 --> 02:47:30.659
you being here. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.

02:47:30.659 --> 02:47:31.899
My pleasure. All right. Bye, everybody.