Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #2065. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding National Security Intelligence, UAP Disclosure Ethics, and Aerospace Sovereignty. Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan
Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by
night, all day. What's up? How are you, man?
Hey, good, good. Thanks for coming here. Appreciate
it. Yeah, no, it's a pleasure. You've been on
a whirlwind sort of tour. I guess we should start
from the beginning. Yeah. So, first of all...
Lay out to people what your job was with the
military and how this all started for you. Yeah,
yeah. So I was an intel officer in the Air Force
for 14 years, seven active, seven reserve. Then
I kind of had like a parallel tract in the civilian
intel world when I became a reservist. And ultimately
I got brought back in in civil service in a government
way at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency.
A couple of years ago at a senior level. So I
was a major in the Air Force and a GS -15 at
NGA, which is like a full bird colonel equivalent
civilian employee. You know, I'm very humbled
that I was able to kind of get that kind of job.
But my career mostly, I didn't even really think
about this topic. UFOs were not on my radar.
I wasn't really a believer. I was agnostic about
it. Most of my career, I did a lot of. Behind
the door, special access program, technical type
activities. I was kind of a space intelligence
expert, a cyber intel expert. And like I said,
this was not on my radar at all. You know, I
would joke with my buddies because I used to
handle the presidential daily brief for the National
Reconnaissance Office director in my military
capacity as a reservist. And I was well clear
to. hundreds and hundreds of compartmented programs.
And, you know, the joke was like, when are we
going to get the read on for the crazy shit?
And that never happens. And I do remember that
the day that I really can remember that I was
like, huh, what's with this UFO stuff? I was
briefing a senior person at the CIA into a couple
hundred special access programs. So I was at
the headquarters at the agency. And, you know,
after the indoctrination I was giving to the
senior person, this person who worked with Lou
Elizondo previously was like, yeah, Dave, have
you ever heard of this guy, Lou Elizondo? He's
running some UFO program at the Pentagon. We
all think he's crazy. And I'm like, I don't know
who this guy Lou Elizondo is. And I don't know
of any kind of UFO program. So that sounds nuts
to me. But lo and behold, and that was like early
2017. And lo and behold, in December 2017, that
New York Times article came up with that named
the AATIP program and the OSAP program. So Advanced
Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program
and Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification
Program being the other acronym. And I was like,
holy shit. Wait, that's that guy, Lua Lizondo,
that I heard about. Oh, you know what? I think
I have heard of OSAP. When I was a lieutenant.
I used to read these reports from the Defense
Intelligence Agency on black holes and stuff.
And I was like, oh, that's like stupid. Why is
the DIA looking into black holes, time warps?
It just didn't make any sense to me back in like
08, 09 when I was a lieutenant. And all of a
sudden I'm like, well, maybe there's something
to this UFO thing. I'm not saying I was like
a believer either way on the subject, but this
was a topic of concern apparently for the Pentagon.
In 2018, I started doing kind of what I call
my open source literature review. Like, let me
spin myself up on this topic. Watching Chris
Mellon, Lou Elizondo, Leslie Keen, all these
people talk about the subject. And then, you
know, just trying to understand, so what is this
with UFOs? Has this been going on for a while?
The answer is yes. Like Foo Fighters, sightings
of weird stuff in antiquity, et cetera, which
we can get into later. And so early 2019 comes
along, and my boss at the National Reconnaissance
Office in kind of my Air Force major capacity
forwarded me an email from what became – stood
up in like I guess it was 2018, which was the
unidentified – well, it was Aerial, now Anonymous
Philomena Task Force, UAP Task Force. So the
UAP Task Force director sent my boss an email
saying, hey, we're looking for a rep. to the
task force. And as like any good officer, I was
like, well, I'll put it on my performance report.
Hey, I was on a task force and you know, that
would look good. And I had being well cleared
and also a bachelor's degree in physics, a master's
in intelligence analysis. I'm like, you know
what? I'll figure out what the shit is. It's
either going to be weather shit. Maybe it's an
adversarial program. Maybe it's like a U S program.
People are misidentifying on rare occasions.
So, fuck it, I'll go see where the data takes
me. And, you know, early 2019 or so, I joined
the UAP task force. And then I started, you know,
interviewing pilots, flag officers, you know,
general officer equivalent type Navy folks. And,
you know, they were seeing some really crazy
shit. you know, event that I talked about previously
publicly in a YouTube video on the Yes Theory
channel. You know, there was this one 30 year
senior Navy officer that, you know, he was going
to work sober, no predisposition for fantasy,
all that kind of stuff, because I interviewed
the individual for a couple hours and he saw
this, you know, crazy triangle hover over his
car going to work at a certain naval facility.
And it like blew his mind. He was serious. the
paint on his car turned milky white after the
incident. So that's to me, that sounds like ionizing
radiation. So like ultraviolet, just like how
your, your headlights get all foggy over time.
If you park your car out in the sun, same phenomenon
just happened, you know, within 24 hour period.
And I'm like, Whoa. If this is true and the oral
testimony and crazy radar data that I saw when
I was on the task force, stuff making turns that
didn't make any sense, well, holy shit, what
is this stuff then? This anomaly with his paint,
is this documented? Is this photographs? Yes,
I saw photographs. It was documented, yeah. And
is there a conventional explanation? I mean,
based on what he described, something to rapidly
ionize his paint like that within a day? I can't
think of anything off the top of my head in terms
of some conventional aerospace technology. And
this was a certain facility in the continental
U .S. This was not overseas. So it's not like
our adversary is flying some spooky thing in
U .S. airspace. So this thing hovered over his
car for how long? A couple minutes while he was
traveling at about 60 miles an hour, so it was
pacing his vehicle. How far away from his vehicle?
It was probably a couple hundred feet in altitude.
It was less than 1 ,000 feet, which is also bad
because from an airspace perspective, pilots
would know this. Anything under 1 ,000 feet?
No. Unless you get special clearance and you
only do that over controlled airspace, like a
military test ranges, right? People fly low and
that kind of thing. So is he on, what kind of
a highway is he on? A conventional civilian highway.
So anyone could have been on it. Yes. And it
just happened to be this guy. Did he have any
other experiences with this thing? No. This was
like a once in a lifetime thing. Kept it to himself
for a couple years, but then he in the task force
came out. What was his name? I don't know. Okay.
That individual's still on active duty. Let's
call him Bob. Did anybody say to him, hey, Bob,
what the fuck happened to your car? You know,
that's a good question. I don't remember if people
asked him about his car. So he took pride in
his car, so it actually was probably more upsetting
to him personally. What kind of car was it? It
was like a Toyota or something. Okay. Yeah. So
all of a sudden his Toyota's fucked. Yeah. OK.
And so did he have to report this? Is this something
that he did not report it to my knowledge to
anybody? It wasn't until he reported it to us
about five years later that it happened. So are
these kind of experiences something that a lot
of these pilots are? They're embarrassed about
discussing or have apprehension about discussing
because they could be ridiculed. Yeah, a lot
of people that are on flight status, they don't
want to be sent to the psych, right? You know,
there's a whole aerospace physiology kind of
empire in the military. And, you know, if you're
an operator or, you know, a guy, a missile key
turner, you're on what they call a personal reliability
program. You're taking like, you know, Tylenol,
you got to report it. If you have a fever, you
got to report it because you're, you know. and
control nuclear weapons when you're on duty.
Right. Yeah. And so this idea of being predisposed
to fantasy, that's also something that they sort
of talk to these people about or try to get a
gauge of. Yeah, yeah. These are people that are
very sober -minded. I mean, this individual was
early in the morning going to work, not under
the influence of anything. And that person had
a similar clearance as mine, no TSSCI. So, you
know, we've gone through. Top secret, you know,
sensitive department of information clearance.
And, you know, just like myself, I've been through
multiple polygraphs in my career. So did this
individual. So does he have any idea or any theories
about why this thing was following him? No, that's
what freaked him out the most because he didn't
have any experience in his life like this. It
like totally blew his mind when he looked out
his moonroof and then looked out the side of
his. car door and saw this 300 foot triangle
it was like pre -dawn sky but it was darker than
the pre -dawn sky and it had this like plasma
edges like it was like purplish glowing edges
and these three lights that had like these omni
-directional like almost like pool lights you
know how there's you can't really tell where
the light source is and it was totally trippy
and that's just one example of many anecdotal
with some evidence you know, pilot stories. And
that's what made me dig deeper. And I started,
you know, cultivating my network. Like, has the
government studied this before? This wasn't just
OSAP and ATIP and Blue Book and all this shit
in the past, right? There's, this seems serious.
So like, certainly the government has looked
at this and, you know, I went to search for that
program and that's what I ended up whistleblowing
on, right? So when you... How did you initially
discover this program and what was your first
encounter with the information? A very senior
individual in the Intel community came to me
when I guess I was asking a lot of questions
because I'm a very inquisitive guy. And it was
like, hey, I need to introduce you to somebody.
He listed that certain person's academic credentials,
which were beyond reproach, PhD level education.
clearance. Resume was insane. I'm like, well,
okay, sure. I'll, I'll talk to this person. And,
and I ended up meeting that person in a, you
know, a top secret facility. And, you know, he
started the discussing like, Hey, there was a
program. I was on it. And, you know, we were
reverse engineering crash material that we've
recovered over the decades, you know, and he's
like, I'm not joking. You know, we're telling
you because you have you guys have to report
to the deputy secretary of defense in Congress
on this matter. Right. And we were we were actively
briefing like Secretary Esper, Deputy Secretary
Norquist, you know, other cabinet level folks.
Right. And it's like there's a you know, there
must be there's an oversight issue because you're
the UAP task force. you know, dollars looking
at stuff that we already have data on. Right.
So that's, and that spooked me. And that was
like fall of 2019. And, you know, I don't take
a guy's word for it. I'm like, you know what,
myself and my trusted colleagues that had a lot,
a lot of special accesses like me, you know,
we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed
about 40 people or so all the way up to multi
-star generals. Directors of agencies, mid -level
guys that literally touched it, worked inside
of it, all the stuff. They brought intel reports
for me to look at, documents, and a lot of that
I could cross -verify with other oral sources
that my high -level colleagues or I talked to,
and it checked out. Especially when I had enough
information on... And I know who specifically
to ask, like, hey, well, I went right into this.
Like, I'm on the UAP task force. And we went
to those, I'll call them gatekeepers for the
lack of a better term. And they basically said,
fuck you to me and my colleagues. So why were
these other people willing to discuss this with
you? Well, they determined I didn't need to know.
I was already. Cleared at such a high level handling
presidential material and everything. It's like
Dave needs to know. And they felt that coming
to us, it was a form of a protected disclosure.
They felt that they weren't really violating
anything because, you know, we were the I'll
call it the investigatory body for the Department
of Defense and the intelligence community and
Congress at the time. And they you know, you
are allowed to. you know, disclosed to a government
official in an official capacity. And I, you
know, did that. And, you know, of course I protected
those people and, and do know I took those people,
a lot of them, and I brought them to the intelligence
community inspector general when I filed my complaint,
because I don't want people to, you know, hear
it from a secondhand source, you know, people
call it hearsay, whatever, though I have some
firsthand knowledge. I eventually talk about
someday I'm trying to get it cleared, but through,
through security processes. So they could hear
it and hear the details like who, what, when,
where, why, where the shit is, who's in control
of it, what are the cover programs, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. And that's what deemed
my complaint credible and urgent in July 2022,
which is a – so my complaint – Yes, was about
reprisal, too. I filed that separately eventually
to the Department of Defense inspector general.
That's an ongoing investigation. But it was my
congressional oversight UAP crash retrieval allegations
that was deemed credible and urgent. It was sent
to the director of national intelligence and
then it was sent to the congressional intelligence
committees around that time, July of 2022. And
I eventually. Went to Congress in December of
2022. And it's a crazy story why I took so long.
It's fucking nuts. But I provided total about
11 and a half to 12 hours of classified testimony
to the congressional staffers and their lawyers
for both the House and the Senate. And I went
full open kimono. I mean, I told them as much
as I could within my time slot, if you will.
This is obviously very compartmentalized where
there's only a few people that know about this
information and they're not allowed to discuss
it with other people. When did this all start?
I mean, is this out of Roswell? Is it predate
that? Like when when did they first realize that
there are things that cannot be explained or
can't be explained through conventional means?
Yeah, I mean, the program goes back a ways. The
precise. Beginning of it, I can't talk about,
but I did, because security stuff, but I did
talk about publicly the 1933 retrieval. And I
did that tactically and I ran that through the
security approval office because I wanted to
show that this is much older and it's international.
It's not like a U .S. thing. I mean, this stuff
is landing or crashing around the world and unexpected
countries. I've had this happen, and that's why
I picked that because I thought that was an interesting
case. And then, of course, Pope Pius XII and
the Vatican were involved back -channeling it
through the OSS, which became the CIA later,
to FDR. And that's how the U .S. knew something
weird happened in Italy during – well, right
before World War II. So this was 33? It was the
first documented? That is the earliest one I
can talk about, yeah. There's something that
predates that? You could infer that. You could
infer that. Yeah. So this 33 -1 you said was
in Italy? Yeah, magenta. So I'm bad at geography.
I think that's like Lombardy region. It's like
northern, northwest Italy. And what's the story
behind it? So basically it looked like it crashed,
right? The original shape most likely was like
a lenticular. Disc -like crafts, you know, with
like two dinner plates. What does lenticular
mean? So like two dinner plates, you know, smushed
together, right? The hump. And there's like a,
you know, like a bubble on top. The classic.
Classic. Like that. Like that. Okay. But it looks
like when it hits, the edges broke off. So it
became this like bell or acorn shaped thing.
And there was nothing in it. It was like just
an artifact. You know, there was no. biological
remnants, if you will. So it's so funny because
the Italians were so confused. They actually
called up the Germans and they were like, is
this one of your Wunderwaffe? Like, what the
hell just crashed in northern Italy? Mussolini.
And this is all publicly available information
because some Italian researchers. found all these
original documents that some people were sitting
on for years in Italy. You know, they put a gag
order on the press, et cetera. And yeah, Mussolini
asked the Germans to come down. Of course, the
Germans came down and they were like, that is
not ours, but let's look at it together. So that's
kind of perhaps a tertiary reason the kind of
Axis powers got together. I'm not saying that's
like. the reason, but I think the Italians and
the Germans were so intrigued with what they
found from like an artifact perspective. There
was at least some scientific and military collaboration
during the war. The details of which I'm not
sure of, but I know people that know that specific
event that are currently still intel officers
within this program. in detail. So was there
witnesses to the crash or some sort of an understanding
that something had crash landed and then they
discovered it? Yeah, I forget the precise discovery.
I don't know if it was like local police officers
or local farmers found it in the field, something
like that. I don't want to misspeak. I assume
some of the Italian researchers might have some
fact witnesses that can orally say, oh, yeah,
my great -grandfather found it or something like
that. But I don't remember. What was the scale
of this vehicle? It was probably like 20 feet
by 10 feet, something like that. Super huge,
but kind of big. Do they think that this was
a drone? Do they think that this was occupied?
There was nothing in it. So if it was piloted,
if you will, by some sentience, I mean, your
guess is as good as mine. So what happened to
that vehicle? So we knew where it was being stored
at a particular location after the crash. the
military came in and we grabbed it towards the
end of the war, you know, 1944, 1945, because,
like I said, Pope Pius XII already kind of let
FDR know. Why did the Pope get involved? Because
it's in Italy? Well, well. Interestingly enough,
there's like a whole history of human intelligence
prior to World War II and old money, the Vatican,
the Italian mob, kind of the old country boys
did a lot of informal intelligence collection.
For the U .S. and there's probably some books
you can read on it, but it's really interesting.
You know, human intelligence collection wasn't
really formalized until the Office of Strategic
Services, the OSS, which became the CIA in 1947.
You had Paul Mellon and all these other affluent
guys of all these old money families that basically
created the CIA. So that's probably the reason
why. So this thing. that was recovered, this
was the first documented one that the United
States had access to? I can't get into if it
was the first or not, but it was an early one.
Very early. Yeah. So it's almost 100 years ago.
Yes. And so they take this thing and then they
bring it where? Yeah, I can't get into that.
Okay. So they bring it somewhere in the United
States. And was the attempt to try to back -engineer
this thing? Was the attempt to try to understand
what it was? Yeah, I mean, first of it, obviously,
it's understanding the situation, right? What
do we have our hands on? And like I've said in
some other videos and stuff, you know, that we
took the Manhattan Project secrecy and overlaid
it on this issue because that secrecy worked
well for atomic bomb developments and whatnot.
And certainly... This whole program in a nutshell,
if I were to like summarize the 90 plus years
of history, it is a reverse engineering program
to garner some kind of insight. And of course,
not a lot of the things that we've learned from
it are like directly, you know, ripped off the
technology we found, but it has inspired. other
innovations that made its way into other U .S.
classified programs over the year for national
defense reasons. It's a myriad of different things.
The UFO folklore is that this is where fiber
optics were discovered first. Yeah, I'm not going
to break the seal on anything we've discovered
or anything like that. Yeah, it's a place I can't
go to. How limited are you in what you can discuss
and what you can't discuss, and why do they let
you discuss any of this? Yeah, so... Anything
sensitive that I want to say as it relates to
like U .S. government activity, whether it be
intelligence stuff, military stuff, et cetera,
I have to submit it through what they call DOPSR,
DOD Office of Pre -Publication and Security Review.
That is something anybody who's been an intel
officer, anybody with like a clearance has to
submit that kind of stuff. Now, obviously, if
you're writing a book about gardening, you don't
have to. But if you're going to talk about anything
military and intelligence related, you have to
submit. It's kind of a catch 22 for this office,
right? They're only looking at it from a security
perspective. They're not vouching for it or anything
like that. And that's like any author, right?
They could write a book about Navy SEALs and
they're not vouching for the story. They're vouching
that you didn't say any nasty code words. You
didn't burn a specific ongoing classified program.
And for them, I mean, I'm not in their OODA loop,
but certainly. It's a catch -22 for them where
if they want to redact and they propose a redaction,
they're like, hey, Dave, you can't say these
sentences. You can rewrite it and resubmit. We
can't necessarily tell you what agency said to
redact it, but you're not allowed to say this.
They would be basically self -certifying there's
a there there. In my opinion, probably the policy
is like if it has to deal with the subject, we're
not saying anything. We're not proposing any
redactions. As long as he's not burning a conventional
program, we kind of have to allow him to exercise
his First Amendment rights. So I think it's like
a catch 22 for that office is kind of the long
or the short of the long answer. So this is essentially
one of the very early ones, 1933. How many? crash
retrieval incidents have there been? It is double
digit. The specific numbers, I do know. However,
I can't discuss that. I know it sounds like,
oh, I'm being coy or whatever. But, you know,
this show, any other interviews I do, right,
you know, Ford Intelligence Services are watching.
And it's like, I'm not here to help Russia and
China calibrate their intelligence collection.
Like, oh, Dave said it's this number. We missed
a couple. Shit, let's put it out for the KGB,
SVR, and GRU are now going to hit the streets
to try to figure out which ones they missed.
So I'm here to protect national security, and
I'm just trying to put all the general topics
out there for public conversation to hold our
government accountable, really. Because I'm here
as a fact witness because we have a constitutional
oversight issue because this program. has not
been reported to Congress in the appropriate
way. And I can get into a senator I talked to
that has died recently, so I can explain to you
why I'm so sure. Besides what I read, which we
can get into what intel reports I read, I did
get some stuff cleared. During my investigation,
I'm like, you know what? I need to talk to somebody
at the highest levels. Right. So and this will
give you an idea of the kind of people we talk
to. And this is the only one I'm going to talk
about using their name because they died two
years ago. So in spring 2021, I actually flew
with a couple of colleagues of mine to Las Vegas.
And I met with Senator Harry Reid about nine
months before he died. And of course, he's a
private citizen now. And I wanted to brief him
on. the topic and i wanted to get his kind of
thought leadership on it because you know he
was a gang of eight member right you know which
is the top most cleared senators and congressmen
he was the majority leader for god's sakes of
the senate and i knew you know he helped sponsor
the osap program that i mentioned and where they
looked at skinwalker ranch and some other things
and i wanted to understand like what does harry
reid actually know like why did he you know,
give $21 million to DIA and Bigelow Aerospace
for this. So I'm sitting there in Harry Reid's
living room, you know, right next to him with
some other witnesses that were there with me.
And he straight up says, he's like, yeah, I knew
we had UFO material. I was denied access for
decades. I tried to get access. And then he explained
some of his efforts during OSAP. And I was like,
Holy shit. Did the former majority leader just
say that he just confirmed this to me as well?
You know, I was already talking to these amazing
high level people, but I have Harry Reid literally
saying, yes, we have material. And, you know,
he knew it was non -human. Did Harry Reid have
personal experience with this? I don't know if
he's had any personal stuff in his personal life.
I mean, did he see it? Did he witness? In terms
of seeing the material himself, he said he was
denied access for years. Decades was his term.
And he actually told me on behalf of me, he was
going. So he had like a weekly call with President
Joe Biden at the time. And he straight up said
to me he was going to talk to President Biden
about this issue, literally. And then what he
was telling me about OSAP. I was like, holy shit.
I have like 20 other people that told me this,
dude. So the real history, what fucking OSAP
was, because I think there's a lot of people
out there that think they were looking at ghosts,
Skinwalker Ranch. Yes, they went to the ranch
as a secondary and tertiary objective. But the
real reason, so like there's a document that
came out a couple years ago through FOIA. from
the Defense Intelligence Agency, there was this
special access program request that Harry Reid,
you might have seen this, I think, like George
Knapp and company have reported on this, that
he sent to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, William
Lynn. And it was asking for one of the most serious
saps you can ask for, what they call a bigoted,
waived special access program. So waived means
it's limited congressional reporting. That is
a class of special access programs. And bigoted
means it's like by name. And it's like it was
like you could read the FOIA document. It was
like, you know, Harry Reid, James Inhofe, Lou
Elizondo, et cetera. And I'm like, why are you
asking for the most serious sap to be created
for a program that ostensibly is looking at Skinwalker
Ranch and stuff? And it doesn't make any sense.
So what really happened there and. You know,
Harry Reid, God bless his soul, made this disclosure
a couple weeks after we met in The New Yorker.
And you can look this up. I think it was like
a May 2021 New Yorker story where he says, I
knew for decades and he made this disclosure,
not me. So I'm going to say the name of the contractor.
Harry Reid said this, you know. We knew that
Lockheed Martin had this material for decades.
I tried to get access and I was denied. And specifically
with the Lockheed Martin stuff, he was talking
about during the OSAP program. And for the people
who are on this program, I submitted this shit
to the officer, got this cleared. So don't freak
out. But I'm telling the truth here. So Lockheed
Martin wanted to divest itself from this material
at a specific facility that's known to me that
I provided to the inspector general. like street
address, all that shit. Right. And the idea was
if they made a catcher's mitt, a security catcher's
mitt for this shit, you know, most serious sap
possible, the contractor and the other government
customer, which was the central intelligence
agency for that specific Lockheed material. And
it was shit that they recovered from like the
fifties and stuff. And it was like bits and pieces
of, of, of, of like hall structure, shit like
that. And. So they were going to tech transfer
it. And the 21 or 22 million dollars was actually
for Bigelow Aerospace to build out, you know,
facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis
equipment. And I've seen I have I saw the staff
meeting slides. I saw the paperwork like there's
a paperwork trail I've seen on this shit. And
I talked to the people involved in this program.
And, you know, even Jim Lakatsky, who ran the
program. who's a retired DIA officer, PhD in
engineering, even made this disclosure in his
book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, page 152 to
153. And he also made a disclosure a couple weeks
ago, I think it was on Weaponize podcast with
Jeremy Korbel and George Knapp, where he's like,
yeah, we had a whole craft and we broke into
the hall and we gained access. And he ran that
through the same security process as I did. And
so Jim Lekatsky, who ran this program, is also
going on the record that he is aware, personally
aware of intact vehicles and everything. So they
gained access. What does that mean? And by what
method did they gain access? The way he wrote
it in his book, I can only infer it sounded forcible.
So through some kind of... You know, means, I
don't know if it was like CO2 laser or something.
I don't actually know how they gained access.
But imagine it was not permissive access. They
like broke into the damn thing. So this thing
is essentially sealed. And it's some sort of,
what was the shape of this thing? Delkatsky didn't
disclose the shape on this particular vehicle.
As far as I recollect. What about the dimensions?
I don't believe he did in his book. But I think
it's like chapter 11 in his new book or something.
I glanced at it. But he did make that disclosure
on video as well. And I do encourage both the
AERO office, which is the DOD's UAP task force
successor, and Congress to ask Dr. James Lukatsky
to come in for classified testimony because the
disclosure in his one book that he wrote with
Colm Kelleher, George Knapp, and in the second
book, well, the guy saying he has close personal
knowledge. He needs to go to Congress. So I,
you know, I don't know James Lekatsky, but I
do encourage him to be a fact witness. But going
back to that transfer with Lockheed, long story
short, can't get in all the nuanced details,
but basically the CIA said, fuck you to DIA and
Lockheed. And it was totally killed. So Harry
Reid's request to get the material transferred
to the OSAP program. was totally killed because
of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff. So
they used that money, and then they wrote those
defense intelligence reference documents, the
DIRDs, as a lot of people who's familiar with
it listening will know about. And then they did
look at Skinwalker Ranch because they thought
that studying kind of the more woo -woo phenomenon
aspects of this, and I've never been to the ranch,
so I've never... experienced the ranch for myself,
but, you know, obviously I think we both know
a bunch of people that have been to the ranch
and have seen some trippy stuff or at least alleged
that, um, they thought that they would be able
to gain currency with the, with the program,
you know, and in this case, CIA to unlock the
key for the Lockheed Martin stuff, uh, which
actually I'll tell you right now, it's like so
weird to say that, but I, I ran that shit through
security. Um, yeah, to me, it's like an out -of
-body experience to talk about that kind of,
uh, detailed sensitivity, stuff like that. But
basically they studied the ranch to gain favor,
to be like, hey, look at all this stuff we're
figuring out, this paranormal stuff that's somehow
connected to the phenomenon on the ranch. But
ultimately they never gained favor with the government
customer. And then the program kind of died a
slow death because of a lot of politics in the
Pentagon. So that's kind of the long but short
of it with the OSAP program that, you know, I
wanted to make sure the public knew. It's not
what you think it was. There was some other stuff
behind the scenes that I wanted to speak truth
to power on. So this particular vehicle that
they had recovered from the 1950s, what was the
source of it? Where did they find it? Those details,
I did not get cleared. So they have in possession
this thing. They gain access to this thing. And
what do they report once they've gained access
to it? Oh, those details I do not know. That's
probably a question for Dr. Lukatsky. I presume
he knows those details. I don't know. So this
thing is housed somewhere. It is, yes. Currently.
It may still be in the same location that I know
about, yes. And how many people have access to
this and how did they prevent this information
from being released? I mean, you know, it goes
back to the compartmentation and kind of the
ecosystem of secrecy in this community. Right.
You know, only a limited amount of people, you
know, at least at the time, you know, on Lockheed
Martin's side. And Lockheed Martin was complaining
basically like, look, like the secrecy is ridiculous.
We can't even bring the right engineers. Like
imagine you're like a hot engineer, hot shot
engineer. You might be hot too. I don't know.
But that, you know, you're fresh out of grad
school. Maybe you're like the best PhD electrical
engineer. You want to do cool shit. You want
to publish an IEEE. You want to like, you know,
climb the ladder corporately, you know, and that
kind of thing. A Lockheed Martin executive comes
to you. Yeah, dude. You're going to I can reach
into something really crazy, but you're never
going to publish papers on it. You're never going
to be able to tell people what you worked on.
And it's probably not the most career enhancing.
But if you want to work on something cool, but
I can't tell you because it's unacknowledged
until you sign this piece of paper, non -disclosure
agreement. You know, sorry, but here's the raw
deal. And, you know, a lot of people are like,
fuck you. No. And and it's not like Lockheed
Martin could broadcast this to universities like
come work for us. You'll work on crazy shit.
And but that is very akin to a lot of other black
programs in the government that are out acknowledging
nature. You don't know what you're signing up
for until you get bred in. And I've you know,
I've been briefed to a lot of that kind of conventional
stuff in my career. So that's one of the problems
that Bob Lazar, and I'd love to get your take
on Bob Lazar, one of the things that he talked
about was that science can't really operate in
a vacuum. When you separate the metallurgists
from the propulsions experts, from the biological
experts, and they're not allowed to communicate
with each other, and they're not allowed to bring
in other experts to have different... Well, that
was the frustration that I had some friends that
I've known my entire career, like almost 14 years,
right? I literally know them personally. I had
a relationship with them, but they ended up,
you know, spilling the beans where, you know,
look, we're on the program. I'm an engineer for
X, Y, and Z. We can't even cross talk across
like the cubicles for God's sakes. Like I can't,
I'm looking at material X doing some. X -ray
diffraction testing on it, which is like shooting
a stream of electrons and seeing how it bends
and looking at the atomic arrangements. I can't
even like crosstalk that with another aspect
of the program. This is like ridiculous. And
that's kind of their frustration. Yeah, I knew
you were probably going to ask me about Bulbasaur.
I figured as much. Why did they do that, though?
If everybody was already sworn to secrecy, everybody
already has NDAs, it seems the most effective
way of reverse engineering or at least gaining
an understanding of how these things are structured.
Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was, right?
People working on the fuses for the bomb. didn't
necessarily know it was going to a nuclear weapon.
And I've seen this kind of compartmentationist,
obtuse secrecy in other programs, and it is debilitating
for progress. And honestly, as a former fiduciary
of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the best modus
operandus to do it that way. And very few people
kind of had that top down, could look across
the silos and see what was going on. It just
became very dysfunctional. And they were afraid
of people being too cross briefed into the different
silos for counter espionage, counterintelligence.
You know, they were going to remember a bulk
of this program is done during the Cold War.
And, you know, we were afraid of Russian spies,
Soviet moles. And so we made it ultra locked
down. but to the detriment of national security.
And that was one of the crazy things that got
me that I wanted to whistleblow on because I'm
like, this is so stupid. We should be making
more progress on this. Were there any breaches
that you're aware of where foreign agents were
able to gain access to materials or an understanding
of what we know? So I'll tell you about some
intel documents I read that kind of obliquely
answers that question. So there were sensitive
human -derived foreign intelligence that I read.
So I had access to kind of the AATIP OSAP classified
archives and I was like thumbing through everything
and there's other people were bringing me documents
to evaluate. And I'll never forget I had to say
stolen by the US intelligence assessment from
a certain foreign adversary discussing the US
reverse engineering program. And I was like.
And that was actually another like, what the
fuck? And and so I had an adversary also confirm
this program literally because of exfiltrated
intelligence. And so they certainly had a limited
knowledge, at least fact of that the U .S. had
a program like this, a particular adversary.
And actually. I was like, well, I want more like
I know who wrote this letter or who got it right
on behalf of the United States government. So
I went to that certain agency through the approved
and official way. And this is kind of part of
the merriest reprisals against me. The agency
was like, oh, yes, we have what you're looking
for, Dave. You're going to need to sign a one
time read into something, you know, come visit
us. You know, go to the vault and read it, right?
You know, hard copy. But yes, we have what you're
looking for. And ultimately, from what I was
told by friends in higher places, my request
kind of went up the flagpole at that agency.
And all of a sudden, the agency ghosted my boss
and I for like two months. And then when I really
pressed them hard to gain access, because I'm
like, I have a need to know. I need to evaluate
this intelligence for fucking Congress. And they
debriefed me from all my accesses over in that
other sister agency and made up some bogus excuse
like I shouldn't have been briefed anything in
the first place, literally. And basically gave
me an administrative middle finger like persona
non grata. Don't ever fucking ask us about that
shit again. And I'm sure the person who made
the oops that told me they had what I was looking
for. probably got admonished and slapped on the
wrist because I never heard from that person
again, even though it was somebody I actually
used to work on occasion with. So that was also
another way I knew I was, you know, there was
a lot of smoke and fire because I, you know,
had stuff like that happen to me. So this, but
knowing that our adversaries. We're aware of
this reverse engineering program. Are we aware
of their reverse engineering programs? Yeah.
Which countries? You could probably guess, and
it won't be too shocking. Okay. But I won't acknowledge
what the U .S. may know. Right. So are we aware
of numbers in terms of at least a rough estimate
of how many are available to these other? Yeah.
How many? That's like super sensitive. But there's
more than one. Yeah. You can read into that.
You can read into that. And has anyone made any
progress? Yeah, I can't get into if we've made
progress, if they've made progress, because that's
like straight up some national security stuff.
But like, I want the, just to be clear, I want
the U .S. populace to learn a lot of this. And
this is why, you know, another reason why I went
public is like. I need to call everybody out.
I'm not here to admonish the entire government,
mind you. But there is an element of the U .S.
government and its clear defense contractor base
that, you know, we have a three branch of government
oversight issue, like going back to Harry Reid.
Harry Reid didn't even get access. I fucking
talked to myself to confirm that. And he said
he was going to go talk to Biden because. I think
there needs to be a disclosure plan. And this
goes back to what's currently in legislation
right now. That's super fucking important. Because
90 some odd percent of this should be open for
public discovery, public analysis and academia.
This should be like, at very least, true nuclear
programs such as nuclear physics, you study in
a university. Nuclear weapons, classified. Because
that makes people in the pink mist. That's really
sensitive. We don't need everybody to know how
to do that. So I think the stuff that is like
legit weapons related stuff, that's like straight
up national superiority stuff. Sure. Reasonably
classify that. But but this these programs, we
need a change. And that's why you saw the Schumer
Amendment. Right. And I think you might have.
read that on air or something in a previous episode,
if I remember correctly, you know, Chuck Schumer.
And I knew about the amendment a couple of months
before I went public. And that's kind of another
reason why I did what I did. I'm like, fuck.
I'm like the only guy that kind of has the opportunity
to do this. I know what's in the chute, so to
speak, that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with
the Schumer amendment, which is 67 pages of literal.
We want to disclose. And I'm like, I have to
spike the football by going public because, you
know, I can read the tea leaves on the hill.
And I think that they were hesitant to do anything
without being able to point to something publicly.
And I'm like, I'll be that fucking guy and just
send it. And then, of course, a month after I
went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over
the ledge. And I do know he talked to the White
House about the amendment, too, because it's
not like Chuck Schumer is going to propose groundbreaking
legislation like that without talking to the
national security advisor or president. Like,
I imagine he did so. And, you know, so you have
the 67 page amendments, right? It's called the
UAP Disclosure Act of 2023, known as the Schumer
Amendment. Co -sponsors were Young, Gillibrand,
Rubio. rounds. Yeah. And, you know, kudos for
those senators for stepping up to the plate because
they know this is real. I know what meetings
they've had with certain other individuals that
are, you know, even more credible than myself.
And so this this act, which is like super important,
is currently in conference as we speak in Capitol
Hill. So the amendment is wrapped in something
called the fiscal year 2024. National Defense
Authorization Act. So that is the act that funds
the military basically every year, right? So
it's an amendment within this bill. And the act
is really long, but the main meat of it is about
halfway through the act that talks about a presidential
panel or agency, which is nine person, and a
controlled UAP disclosure plan that's six years
in length, conceivably from 2024. to 2030. And
this panel, and you can read this, this is public
law, anybody can read this. They want a scientist,
economist, you know, you know, sociologists,
etc. It's kind of like who you would want to
help craft the plan for the president. And this
whole bill was actually built off the JFK Records
Act, which I know like, they're like, well, they
never released all the records. Well, we put
some teeth in the bill, some eminent domains,
some other stuff. you know, kind of force the
issue. Now, granted, the chief executive, the
president has the final say. The panel can't
compel the executive to do it. But like, I hope
the president does. And I support that. But so
the Senate already passed it. They're chill with
this. This is like, we're good to go. And and
but there's pushback in the House right now that
is, you know, part of my language, fucking ridiculous.
So they're saying, for one, it's duplicating
the DOD Arrows Office activities. They're doing
good things. They're looking at UAP reports,
trying to figure out what's balloons and air
trash and what's weird stuff. And of course,
they are doing an historical review to try to
understand the U .S.'s history on this too. But
the problem is with that agency, it's within
the DOD and IC, not above. So you have an issue
reaching into Department of Energy, other, you
know, cabinet level agencies. You need a presidential
level panel that can declassify stuff, reach
into other agencies and tell certain secretaries,
we're coming in, we want your stuff under presidential
authority. So what's happening in the House,
from what I'm told from people on the Hill that
are working the issue right now, you have the
chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner,
who's blocking this from Ohio, Dayton, Ohio area,
right, Pat? Weird. Right Pat meaning Wright -Patterson
Air Force. Yeah. And Mike Rogers, which I'm kind
of surprised, from Alabama, who's the chair of
the House Armed Services Committee. So I have
a problem with Mike and Mike right now. So Mike
Turner, now remember I went to his committee
in December of last year. He wasn't there, but
his staff and lawyers were. And, of course, he
goes on Fox Business. after the hearing, doesn't
use my names like this whistleblower. He has
no idea what he's talking about. I'm like, really?
Tell me, Mike. Have you ever been an intel officer
or served in the military? Oh, wait, you've been
the mayor of Dayton, Ohio. You were voted most
corrupt person in Congress a couple years ago
and pull up his PAC donors. Who are his biggest
donors? Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing. Okay, so.
And first of all, if you thought you needed more
information or wanted to talk to me personally,
why didn't you call me back when I reported to
your committee? So and furthermore, besides blocking
the bill, I'm sure you're familiar with like
Representative Tim Burchette of Alabama. And
he's been very outspoken on the issue. We may
not agree with everything Tim says about conventional
stuff. That's, you know, here, no there. But,
you know, he's been a champion on the oversight
committee. you know, one of the members that
I testified in public under oath regarding this.
So like, and Mike Turner is looking to fund,
according to staffers I've talked to last two
weeks, an opposition candidate for Tim's reelection
in 2024. So why is Mike Turner going out of his
way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee
representative on the oversight committee? And
why are you blocking a bill? And it's not going
to cost much, a couple million a year max, you
know, for the panel, which is like vaporware
and U .S. government speak, right? If there's
nothing to see here, why are Mike Rogers and
Mike Turner in the House blocking this bill that
is, in my opinion, the most important legislation
for transparency in American history? If there's
nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy. Multi
-star generals I talked to are crazy. The Intel
docs that I read are incorrect. They're fucking
forgeries or passage material or something like
that. Good friends of mine that worked on the
program are bullshitting me and some consorted
operation against me and my colleagues that it
would be totally crazy to even conduct that because
I took precautions. Then why don't we just pass
this and see what happens? And what do you think
the answer to that is? And special interests
want to keep the genie in the bottle, even though
the toothpaste is coming out of the tube. And
I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial
complex that doesn't want change. And I'm not
here to be like some total adversary. I think
there needs to be a truth and reconciliation
process on this issue. I'm not here to throw
people in jail. I'm not here for big contractors
involved to lose money. I think this would be
a boon. And I think the leadership in these companies
need to think about this, where if we're more
open with this, you can hire people. You can
push the subject into undergraduate, graduates
and postdoctoral programs of research to study
this in an unclassified, just like nuclear physics.
This answers a fundamental question for humanity.
Are we alone or what happens when we die? Well,
I don't know about that, but are we alone? Well,
the answer is we're not alone. And I know that
with 100 percent certainty, which as an intel
officer, you never say 100 percent. But all things
pointed towards. based on the people I talk to,
like Harry Reid, and I use him as an example,
but I talk to the highest of the high people
you could possibly talk to to catch my drift.
So unless all them are lying and they're covering
up something else, which I don't even know what
it would be at this point, because the phenomenon
is real. It's been going on for thousands of
years. People have been seeing strange things
and not everybody's mass hallucinating. So that's
kind of my long diatribe about what's happening.
What do they think these things are? The people
that you talk to? So they specifically, the people
on the program that handle the material, that
were in executive level briefings with Intel
community leaders and other folks over the years,
last 20 years or so, they did use the term extraterrestrial,
ET or whatever. Okay, that isn't a possible origin,
but... The Schumer Amendment, if you read it,
it specifically uses non -human intelligence,
NHI, very deliberately because we want to catch
everything. Because what if some of this stuff
is not ET and they're going to use that as an
escape clause? Like, well, this stuff that we
don't even know if it's extraterrestrial, so
this doesn't apply. So that's why we wanted to
be as broad as possible. I mean, besides ET,
I mean, a lot of it would be my own personal
opinion. a couple conceivable buckets, and I'm
using the work of Jacques Vallée. Other people
that have thought deeply on the issue, on how
the phenomenon has changed since antiquity, it
showed itself in a different way. Like a good
example is like witches sitting on your chest
phenomenon with paralysis and medieval and enlightenment
era became this alien abduction phenomenon in
the modern era. And is it the... The recipient
and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing
the phenomenon based on a modern interpretation,
you know, inside out. Or is the phenomenon, this
is like Jacques Vallée's book, Passport to Magnolia,
Magnolia, I can't pronounce it right, 1969, where
he talks about the phenomenon seems to like masquerade
itself as different stuff over the years. But,
you know, we've seen roughly the same stuff.
You look at the. Foo Fighters of World War II.
There are declassified Air Force OSI reports
from the 50s. People can Google the talk about
flying butane tanks with the same measurements
approximately what we saw in the 2004 Tic Tac
incident, but they called it flying propane or
butane tanks in the 50s. So from a morphology
or in the Air Force intel, we call it vis recce,
visual reconnaissance. basically look the same
and we can back azimuth that you know decades
if not hundreds of years in the past you know
wheels of ezekiel right they're seeing these
like disc type objects right and unless ezekiel
is uh tripping or this is an allegory or fable
in the in the bible you know let's say the event
happens just like the In the Vedic text, you
have the battles, the blue people in the battles
in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed
energy weapons. Like what's going on there? I
mean, maybe that's a Graham Hancock or Randall
Carlson type thing. They know more than I. So
there is a real phenomenon that origin undetermined,
but it's trippy. And sometimes it presents itself
in like a non -corporeal form, too. Orbs, balls
of energy, they don't appear as some kind of
bipedal hominid like some people have espoused.
So I think that might be, call it interdimensional,
call it shadow biome, crypto terrestrial. I mean,
there's a lot of different theories. What are
the primary theories? The primary theories are
from another planet or from another dimension.
I think those are the primary. I mean, there's
certainly... Origins that we probably can't conceptualize
as humans because we're just – our meat is stuck
in 3D and we don't understand and our IQs are
only so high. So there might be some origins
that we don't understand. In terms of like interdimensional
travel. Yeah. I mean obviously if you talk to
mainstream physicists, they say like crossing
dimensions physically is kind of a trope of sci
-fi. And that's why I used an example. And I
know some physicists don't like me talking about
this theory, but it is a theory, you know, like
so the holographic principle, which was originally
conceived to explain how information is encoded
on an event horizon of a black hole, which is
a distance away from the singularity of a black
hole where if you cross it, you're fucked because
you're going to get ripped to shreds or you're
not coming back. And that principle talks about
how. Information basically from higher dimensional
space can be encoded in lower dimensional space.
And the easiest example is like us casting a
shadow on a sidewalk, right? Three -dimensional
object, 2D shadow on a sidewalk. If you lived
in two -dimensional space, flatland, you'd be
tripped out. What the fuck am I seeing? But they
just don't know that it's really just a person
in higher dimensional space. So as some of the...
I mean, obviously we have physical material that's
in three -dimensional space that we've recovered,
but at least maybe some of the phenomenon is
really operating in higher spatial dimensions,
but is either being projected or quasi -projected
into our 3D plus time space, which is really
trippy to think about, but we literally do it
on a day -to -day basis like casting shadows.
So, and that might be some of what we're seeing
too, but I mean, I presume we know more. The
people I talked to did not, They had full knowledge
either. Like I said, the normal colloquialism
was to say ET or extraterrestrial. Could you
dumb down this concept of interdimensional? I
know in physics they have theorized that there
are multiple dimensions other than those that
we can currently detect. Yeah, and a lot of that
is based off of like Laroche. This is my bachelor's
degree talking. I know there's going to be, like,
some physicist who has a PhD who's like, oh,
Dave, you fucked that up. But basically, you
know, from high -energy particle collisions and
based on the deflection angles and all this stuff,
what happens when the particles collide, you
know, confirms certain theoretical frameworks
about extraspatial dimensions. And, you know,
I can't speak with any real authority on, you
know, precisely how that works. whether it be
string theory or quantum mechanics are based
off of higher spatial dimensions. And, you know,
so that is a mainstream physics theoretical framework.
That's not like wacky or loony or anything like
that. So but that's basically a possibility.
But like I said, like. We don't really have a
good theory if you lived in, like, 5D space,
for example. It's almost like, remember the ending
of the movie Interstellar, right? Yes. Where
he's pushing the books. He's, like, in a tesseract,
you know, which is like a 4D to 5D structure.
But he's trying to interact with 3D space. And,
of course, he, like, leaves that space to come
back to his daughter many years later at the
ending of the movie. Great movie. But, so. That's
a way to conceptualize it in something you may
have watched in film. It's kind of like the ending
of Interstellar. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there you go.
Which is based on what? Like what theory? So
the physicist Kip Thorne was the very famous
guy. He was a big black hole and wormhole guy.
I think it's Caltech. somewhere in California.
Kip Thorne actually did all the physics equations
and everything for Christopher Nolan to make
sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing
black holes and wormholes and all that stuff
correctly in the movie. We saw the halo around
the black hole when they were coming in with
the ship and everything. That's actually based
off of real physics models that Kip Thorne did
the calculations for, which is pretty cool, actually,
that Christopher Nolan took it to that level.
So this idea that these beings or whatever you
want to call them exist in some other dimension.
Do we have, I mean, I don't know what you can
say about this. Do we have an understanding?
Do we have any sort of communication with these
beings that give us some sort of an understanding
or a map of this? Yeah, the interaction stuff,
that's a sensitive area. There were multiple
very senior people that were concerned about
talking about that kind of stuff with me. I mean,
that is certainly, as nuts as it sounds, that
was a real subject of conversation. Even it sounds
like something out of like Star Trek First Contact.
But it doesn't if you have vehicles. Yeah. So
it's like once you realize the phenomenon's real,
then you realize we've recovered artifacts. And,
you know, biologics or, you know, dead pilots,
if you will, even though it's kind of creepy
to even think about that in your worldview, you
don't think they were ever, you know, alive sometimes
too, right? And I'll leave it at that only because,
you know, that is something, you know, the president
and his cabinet need to disclose this in a controlled
manner going back to that amendment. You know,
I'm not here to... You know, push the subject
in an improper way. And that sounds like, why
don't you just do it, Dave? Like, there's a lot
of secondary and tertiary ramifications socioeconomically,
theologically, our relationship geopolitically
with our allies and adversaries. This is not
rip off the Band -Aid. And it's simple. There's
a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that
need to happen. And that's why I'm. I'm laying
out all the general stuff that needs to be talked
about during the disclosure process. But I should
not be the one disclosing. And it would be highly
inappropriate because I care about the health
of the United States and its people and national
security for me to do so. So I know there's people
that are like, oh, why doesn't Dave say X, Y,
and Z? It's like, this is serious. This is not
like, ha -ha, let me tell you a good story. I'm
a serious guy. I ruined my fucking career doing
this. I was going to make lieutenant colonel
in the Air Force this winter. I was on track
to be, you know, a flag officer, equivalent civilian
in my career. I spent 18 years in uniform, if
you count the cadet time, right? My whole adult
life was serving as an intel officer. But I wanted
to see, and I'm 36, right, older millennial.
I wanted to see change. So I'm throwing the flag
out. And I'm here to hold the government accountable
to do the right thing in a manner that is mature
and thorough because I don't begin to say that
I know everything, all the different ramifications
of saying certain things publicly. I don't know
all the answers to that. And that's why I have
to be careful because I don't even know, I'll
call it, you know, collateral damage effects
to use kind of a military term, what may happen
of certain things. In detail that are revealed
that I might not know the ramifications thereof
because there's something that I'm not privy
to. So this is like a serious, this is not like
a fun situation. This is like humanity changing,
hopefully in a good way. But this is like, you
know, quite serious. And I, you know, risked
my personal and professional life and personal
life because things have happened to me to be
public like this. And, you know, I swore an oath,
but, you know, myself and my generation, you
know, want to see it change. Can you discuss
the things that have happened to you personally?
Yeah. So a lot of the stuff I have to be purposely
vague because there's an open inspector general
reprisal investigation on my behalf. And I'm
not here to compromise the investigation by tipping
off my antibodies that may be watching right
now. But, you know, when I really started looking
into this, I mean, they came after me. So hard
to try to revoke my clearance, ruin my career,
kicked me out of my agency. And they accused
me of everything you could possibly think of
with like no evidence. For example, at first
they wanted to say, oh, Dave, you have mental
health stuff you didn't report to us. We're concerned
because we think you might have an ongoing mental
health issue. I'm like, what are you? talking
about. I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan
in my military service several years ago. And
I sought help for that. Like, I'm not ashamed
of that. You know, I'm high functioning autistic.
And I didn't know that until my early 30s. And
how I process trauma, I didn't really understand
until many years later. And, you know, I sought
help for that. And they were trying to say that,
like, I had some secret mental health problem
that I haven't been reporting to so i had to
go through this whole process three agencies
at the same time investigated me for that which
i don't even know if that's like legal they tried
to say that i like mishandled classified all
this other stuff it was insane apparently i was
under criminal investigation for a couple months
and i didn't even know that and nor did they
interview me but they made a uh finding with
no evidence they tried to use against me that
i had to spend money to basically litigate and
maintain my employment and my clearance, which
I did for the record. I maintained my clearance.
I resigned with full accesses. You know, I'm
just debriefed now, but I maintained my top secret
eligibility and I left with my own accord. And
so, and of course. They ruined one of my boss's
careers in another agency. They walked him out
of the building and revoked his clearance and
terminated him as a show of force after they
were going after me. And I feel sorry for that
certain individual. And they came after coworkers
of mine. I can't get into who, what, when, where,
and why to protect their identities and their
own process. So that's what happened to me professionally.
What happened to me personally was very disturbing.
So I have to be very vague about this because
ongoing investigation, but I think you'll understand
what I'm saying, is they showed my wife and I
they can touch me at any time, two times. And
it was very disturbing. It was in conjunction
with some other people getting a message like
that that are, let's say, publicly well -known.
Some that aren't publicly well known. And of
course, I immediately reported that to, you know,
counterintelligence, federal law enforcement
local to me because it wasn't criminal, but it
was like a fuck you to me. And this was right
before I filed my whistleblower complaint. Now,
I don't know who did this. You know, an entity
who did X, Y and Z to my wife and I. Identity
unknown, but it fucking happens. And I provided
that documentation to. a couple of special agents.
And I just knew that it was getting serious.
And, you know, as well, first of all, I'm the
kind of person I'm, I'm from Pittsburgh, you
know, like steel town, I'll take shit from people.
And I decided, fuck it. I'm going to file an
inspector general complaint to protect myself.
I don't, I'm in fear for my safety. You know,
my wife's an air force veteran too. And, you
know, Very strong individual. But, you know,
as a man, you don't want to put your family at
risk. And, you know, did certain other measures,
which I won't talk about, to protect myself,
you know, physically. And I could not believe
that that was happening to me. No kidding. And
I knew I needed to do something internally. And
then when I saw the writing on the wall. Earlier
this year, and of course, I knew about the Schumer
Amendment, like I mentioned earlier, and I knew
I'm like, you know, I got to do this for my own
protection because me leaving the federal service
because I resigned my Air Force commission. I
totally threw that career away to do what I thought
was the right and patriotic thing to whistleblow
on this, you know, and I, you know, swore my
oath 18 years ago. And that sounds hokey, but
I believe. You know, integrity first, service
before self, and excellence all we do. That's
the Air Force motto. And I'm like, this is not
going to help me personally. Like, love talking
to you. I like spreading this message because
it's the right and ethical thing to do. But this
is a nightmare for me. I don't want to be public.
I've served the country in clandestine and covert
operations for 14 years. I've done technical
intelligence for some of the most high -profile
takedowns in U .S. history. I shouldn't even
be here. But I am because I want to see change.
I saw something unethical and unmoral. I want
to make sure I hold that element of the government
accountable. And it was the right fucking thing
to do. And I get kind of emotional about that
because, you know, my career has been service
and sacrifice. And, you know, I had two friends
of mine die. And I've talked about this publicly
before. And I, you know, I'm segueing a little
bit, but. The suffering of the American intelligence
officer is something that, for the service of
their country, and we're not talking about this
subject, obviously, people don't realize the
kind of trauma intel professionals go through.
So, first of all, I had a friend six months after
I got back from Afghanistan. His name is Captain
Dave Lyon. There's a park in Peterson Space Force
Base named after him. I remember seeing his coffin
come off the plane. You know, I saw him die that
that fucked me up for a number of years. And
that's what, you know, gave me a lot of my my
problems I ended up dealing with. But then I
had I remarried and then my best man, Captain
Ben Hiney, Air Force intelligence officer, Air
Force Special Operations Command. I've known
him for years. He's my closest friend, you know,
best man at my wedding. And then 28 days later.
Unfortunately, he suffered from depression and
it was, you know, as his best friend, he didn't
even confide in me. You know, I remember chit
-chatting him, chit -chatting with him on the
phone one day, about 28 days after he was my
best man. And he didn't tell me anything was
wrong with him. And a few hours later, he walked
in his backyard and shot himself. And, you know,
I gave his eulogy at his funeral. you know, really
affected me. And, and, and with what Ben experienced,
which I can't get into all of the stuff he did,
obviously, but imagine being the guy that decides
that that person is bad. Fire the hell fire.
That person is now pink mist that they're dead.
You just played God. Let's go back to. You know,
the wife and kids at the end of your shift. And
a lot of that, you know, I did the same kind
of thing. I did a lot of stuff overseas, involved
interrogations and, you know, ops that you had
to decide if a target is bad enough where you're
going to affect their life forever and their
family's life forever. And that's the silent
suffering of Intel professionals, especially
during the global war on terror, which was, you
know, 21 years or so. The trauma and the mental
health problems that people get from being an
intel professional in an operational environment.
People think like special operators, pilots,
et cetera, you know, Army, Marines, ground pounders.
And they certainly have their own trauma, but
it's this weird insidious, am I in a video game?
Is this real trauma that intelligence professionals?
And I just wanted to highlight that during the
show because that was just a near and dear to
myself. So people are aware of the service of
military intelligence and civilian intelligence
professionals that have to make really tough
decisions for the country that affect people's
lives on the receiving end. Was there a concern
while you're going through all this that if you
didn't come out with this, that we would be stuck
in the same sort of loop? for a long long period
of time and no one would ever have access to
this stuff that they would continue yep yeah
and that you nailed it on the head is you know
i think my generation wants to change the under
40 generation their parents went to war their
older brothers went to war we're fighting two
dangerous proxy wars right now which is extremely
um stupid i mean a better way of saying it be
quite frank and i give you my own assessment
on that if you want but i Like we're in this
loop. We're not progressing in a healthy way
as a civilization. You know, it's becoming more
divisive, whether you're on the left or the right.
You know, people aren't even looking up. All
they care about is TikTok. You know, we're creating
potentially dangerous artificial intelligence.
You know, I even saw that in my government service.
And I think humanity is kind of stuck right now
and we need to change. And this subject is like
one of the only. unifying, ontologically shocking,
but I would think generally unifying topics where
if announced by the U .S. and other major powers
that have knowledge in a controlled manner, that
this could change humanity for the better, make
us look inside ourselves, become less divisive,
and care maybe a little less about superficial
things. So that's kind of my philosophical motivation
to do what I did. And you're confronted with
one of the biggest mysteries in human history.
Yeah. Which is, are we alone? And it seems like
at least some people have the answer to that.
100%. I mean, the people I talked to certainly
did. And they had close personal knowledge. And
the intel reports I read, you know, literally.
indicated that as well like i talked about earlier
uh and it just so it's like this caste system
i call dudes with sci clearances do not have
an embargo on reality so it's a caste system
of you know people in government and outside
of government in the industrial complex that
run this stuff under little oversight and you
know i remember some of the people who denied
us access they were like you know you know i
don't know what you're talking about but if i
did Why would you have a need to know? And I'm
like, well, why did you have a need to know?
You're just some multi -star general. You're
a human being. You're a human being. You're not
better than me. I mean, who determines need to
know on a humanistic question? It's like basic
fact of life. Why are we classifying fact of
life at this day and age in 2023? It's insane.
And the answer to that would be. National security.
Yeah, it's obtuse national security, right? So,
like, why we classify stuff. It's called Executive
Order 13 -526, right? Section 1 .4, Sections
E and F are why we classify science stuff, why
we classify nuclear stuff. It's like a one -liner.
It's very vague. And are you saying these basic
facts should be classified? Are you saying that
this fits in this bill? And, you know, and you
notice the Schumer Amendment, if anybody reads
it, awkwardly calls out the Atomic Energy Act
in 1954. Right. And they're basically treating
this as nuclear secrets because it gives off
nuclear radiation. Because if you look at the
ultra vague definition of special nuclear material,
which is Section 51. The Atomic Energy Act of
1954. It says anything that gives off a sizable
amount of atomic energy. Literally, that's what
it says. Well, what's sizable and what legal
gymnastics are you saying? This stuff, which
is obviously not a, well, who knows? Maybe it
is a nuclear weapon. And you're saying this is
a U .S. nuclear secret. You're transclassifying
it into a nuclear secret, which I understand.
maybe at first why they did that. And I'm not
admonishing the hard decisions that presidents
and other folks did many years ago when this
was more of an enigma and we wanted to lock it
down, figure it out, and then see what we're
going to do. But there's never been a disclosure
plan. I always ask that to these super senior
people I talk to. Was there a plan? Any kind
of plan at all? And they're like, no, never.
We tried to muddy the waters back in there, you
know, tried to put it out there and test the
populace. But, you know, there was never any
cogent plan. I mean, people think the government
is like this fine oiled machine. They have plans
for everything. Well, I guess sort of. But like,
it's not. I mean, look at the war on terrorism.
We left Afghanistan. No general officer, Mattis
Petraeus. McChrystal, I call them the failed
generals. People, loud them, but really themselves
in the Obama administration, Bush administration,
except Trump, whatever, nobody had a cogent plan
for success. And we were fighting people who
were much less of an adversary than one of our
peers or near peers. We couldn't even win that
war. Like, what the fuck are we doing? But these
protracted endless wars, let's be real, it's
good for the industrial complex. So and I'm not
like admonishing the whole industrial complex
for the record. You know, we need national lethality.
We need weapons to kill bad guys because there's
evil people in the world. But you've got to control,
you know, some of it. Well, that's a part of
the problem with people that have secrets. It's
like once you have secrets and a part of your
identity is the holder of those secrets and part
of the culture of these industries. is that they
are the ones that have the access to that. Yeah,
and I saw that in conventional, really black
programs I was a part of in my career. It was
almost like you got that secret society vibe
where it's like if you're a career government
servant, your salary is not that great, but knowledge
is your currency. And what makes you special?
What rice bowl do you control? And I remember
getting read into some stuff that like it was
like the president and very limited number of
people getting read into. And I was one of them
because I was operating a certain thing for a
certain op. And, oh, you're part of the club.
You know, like only 30 people are cleared or
whatever. And I'm like, I don't get off on this.
It's so weird. But like he's like lifers. And
I hate to, you know. talk so matter of fact about
it, but like, it just, it's kind of disgusting
to me because it's like this, like, uh, it's
weird. It's just like a weird, like Gnostic cultish
thing. And, you know, I lived that community
for 14 years of my career. And people really
do enjoy having information that other people
don't have access to. I was like, I got a secret.
And like, that's why I whistleblowed. Okay. So
I know this shit's real. I know there, we're
not alone. We have stuff, no shit. Am I going
to sit on my ass for 30, 40 years? I'm an old
man. I look back like, ah, I had that secret.
I knew about it, but I didn't do anything. I
didn't change. So I couldn't just keep that secret
because I thought it was just perverse and wrong
that the people don't even at least get to know
the basics. It's insane. So when it comes to
these, I'm going to bring it back to these actual
entities. Yeah. Do we know? Or would you have
an understanding of how many of them we're talking
about and the variety of them? Yeah, there is
a variety, and we have a certain number of different
things. But the, like, total numbers of, like,
what's interacting with us on Earth, I mean,
nobody knows that. But there's an understanding
of some that they do believe are interacting
with us, and there's a variety in terms of there's
variables. Yeah, I talked to people who are familiar
with. the biological analysis and everything.
So we have some idea, not a complete picture
because it's like, you know, you know, you're
looking at it. It's like, well, I don't even
understand the physio physiology at all. It's
like, what the heck? It's like way different.
Right. So we have at least a description of this
physiology. Yeah, no, I was in, I was in the
room when I was in Washington, D .C. with a very
number of senior people that work for members
of Congress, put it that way, when I was still
in government. And I brought the people who worked
on that stuff to the Hill. I mean, this is why
the members were so confident to put out the
Schumer Amendment and stuff. And I was like,
please explain. Um, they went into all those
details and stuff. And I remember, you know,
uh, some, some of the professional staff members
were like, Whoa, like, like they were like in
G lock. Right. Cause I mean, it like a total
world bubble, um, got burst right there for a
lot of people. And so we, we have some idea.
It's not a complete picture. I mean, it's just
like, but you're not even bringing in the right,
the right people. Like I think about my friend
and colleague, uh, Dr. Gary Nolan, which I started
the, um, sole foundation nonprofit with, I mean,
he's like, you know, Nobel level biologist, virologist,
like he's the guy that you would want on it,
but he's not on it. So I think we can make a
lot of progress in our understanding. Once again,
if, if this is more broadly studied, um, in an
open environment, you're aware of the Nixon,
Jackie Gleason story vaguely. Uh, I, I stayed
away from ufology because I had these contemporary
people that were inside. I could check all their
credentials, where they worked, et cetera. But
I'm vaguely familiar where, what was it, like
Nixon brought Jackie Gleason to some facility
and showed him some stuff or something like that?
Yeah, supposedly that's the story. And it's very
hard to determine the origin of the story or
whether or not it's real. It came from, there's
a story about one article that was supposedly
public. Was it Vanity Fair? and you can't find
the story. But Jackie Gleason, by all accounts,
was obsessed with UFOs and even built a home
in upstate New York that looked like a flying
saucer. Oh, really? Yeah. That's cool. This is
the house. He had this house constructed supposedly
after he had this meeting with Nixon. So Nixon,
supposedly they were drinking. Jackie Gleason
and Nick Nixon are tying one on, and Nixon's
like, you want to see some shit? And they fly
to wherever this base is, and he shows them these
frozen biological entities and this retrieved
vehicle. And then Jackie Gleason becomes a fanatic,
obviously. That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, not crazy,
but that's interesting that a president would
do that to... Like an uncleared celebrity friend
of his. Like, oh, let me just show you the most
sensitive shit our country has. I don't know.
It's kind of crazy to me. People are obsessed
with celebrity. You know, there's even world
leaders, you know, kings and queens of, you know,
they've always been obsessed with famous people.
And Jackie Gleason at the time was incredibly
famous and also beloved. Right. Yeah. So this
is my pal and I'm drunk. You want to see some
shit? You know, I get it. I want to hang out
with Nixon if that's how he was like, man. The
70s is probably wild. I bet he was like that
in a lot of ways. You know, I mean, Hunter S.
Thompson famously recalled his, yeah, there's
the two of them meeting together, famously recalled
sitting in the backseat of a limo with Nixon
talking about football. And he was like, God,
if I didn't think he was a piece of shit, I actually
kind of like him. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. We're
just talking football. Yeah. You know, look,
nobody. in that job nobody as a president is
going to be loved by everyone and i'm sure nixon
has positive qualities and you know if jackie
gleason liked him i'm a giant jackie gleason
fan it's probably probably fun to hang out with
yeah yeah if you're drunk and you know you're
the president also we're talking about the 1970s
right so this is a different world you know Like,
even if you tell anybody, who the fuck's going
to believe you? You can't get on TikTok. Like,
what are you going to do? How are you going to
get this information out? Oh, exactly. And that's
kind of how, in my personal opinion, how the
program was protected, right? Forever. Make it
crazy. Right. So if anybody leaks anything or
has an unauthorized disclosure, people are going
to think you're fucking nuts. Of course. Yeah.
Yeah. But there are actual reports. that we have
biological remains? Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. How many?
It's up there as well, just like with the retrievals.
And they vary. There's different kinds. Do we
have an understanding, you don't have to answer
where, of where they came from? Nobody I talked
to expoused any specific origin to me. We may
know that, but... I'm not aware of anything,
so I don't know. Are there reports of some kind
of interaction with these things where they're
giving information or discussing the problems
of humanity and possible solutions or explaining
why they're here? Interactions was a sensitive
subject that my interview subjects did not want
to get into. I suppose that there's probably
detailed documentation of those interactions
that goes into a lot of the stuff you're asking.
I truly don't even know the answer to a lot of
that. Is there discussions amongst these people
that there have been these sort of meetings?
There was water cooler talk. with some people
I talked to on the program. I love water cooler.
Yeah. They're like, Hey bro, guess what I overheard
in some weird meeting, you know? Right. And so,
but that is the problem with that is it's like
secondary information. Right. And I'm so anal
retentive unless that person told me I had close
personal. I touched it, whatever. Like, cool,
well, you're coming to the inspector general
or I'm going to at least give them your name
because that's what you told me. And obviously
I did that. So those people who physically were
there, were on the program, did the thing, I
brought to the inspector general. Are there discussions
of interactions with live beings? There was some
water cooler talk about that kind of thing. But,
you know, I don't even want to get into it because
it's like. There were some details provided to
me, but it's like it's secondary. And I don't
know if that's like the telephone game. And I
don't know if it was hyperbolized in any way,
you know, in the break room, so to speak. So
I just I'm so anal about making sure what I say
is accurate. I don't I don't know. Do we have
an understanding? I mean, if if there have been
these discussions, do we have an understanding
of when they first took place? Yeah, some specific
events were mentioned to me, and I provided that
information in a classified setting. And how
far back did they go? Pretty far back. It's pretty
weird. Yeah. Well, one of the stories from Roswell
that's fascinating to me is that Eisenhower had
the wreckage flown to Wright -Patterson Air Force
Base in two separate jets in case one of them
crashed. There has been some public testimony.
So General DuBose, there were some old timers
that at least, you know, did some videos in like
the 90s. Like I'm Brigadier General Exxon. Here's
what I heard. Whatever. I mean, that's out there
in the open source. So, yeah. Yeah. And there
was always a discussion of Hangar 18. Right.
Have you ever heard of Hangar 18? There's a lot
of hangers. For whatever reason, I think it was
maybe a movie. Was there a movie? Well, you know,
it's funny. Speaking of senators being denied,
there's a video in the late 80s of Senator Barry
Goldwater of Goldwater -Nicholsack famed, right?
He was a two -star general in the Air Force Reserve.
And literally, this video is on YouTube. It's
hard to find, though. But Jesse Michaels on American
Alchemy. Put together, I think, a short video
yesterday. And there's like a section in there
where he actually has that Goldwater interview.
But General Goldwater is like, yeah, one day
I called Curtis LeMay, who's a very famous Air
Force general, and was like, General, I heard
that there's this room that you have UFO material.
And Barry Goldwater exposes in this interview
like, yeah, LeMay got madder than hell at me
and told me never to fucking ask about that again.
I might have added the F word in there just for.
For fun. For fun. But yeah, it's bad. The military
too long. My wife tells me to be careful with
my language all the time around my niece and
nephew. But even Barry Goldwater knew that we
had UFO material. He asked General LeMay when
he was in the Air Force and General LeMay basically
told him to fuck off. And that is a literal interview
you can Google. So a lot of this like people.
disclosing fact of has really been out in the
vernacular for a long time. But nobody really
cared because, well, everybody was just kind
of like desensitized from the whole subject and
thought it was wacky. And I'm not the first former
government official to confirm that. You have
Goldwater and all these other folks. Harry Reid,
who made the same disclosure to The New Yorker
a month after I talked to him in person. Christopher
Mellon. Yeah, Mellon has said stuff. Lou Elizondo.
said he believes we have material on, I think
it was Tucker Carlson a couple years ago. So
there's certainly been other officials. Now,
I'm just trying to spike the football and take
it all the way to the end zone here. And luckily,
we have a Congress that's mostly motivated, minus
Mike Rogers and Mike Turner. You're getting cool
in your stockings. I'm going to make sure your
office gets cool. You know, they they want change,
too, and they realize it's time for a change.
And presumably, you know, Chuck Schumer's talked
to, you know, Jake Sullivan and President Biden.
And, you know, who's in the White House right
now is John Podesta. He is the green energy czar
or something like that in the White House. But,
you know, John Podesta. Shout out to John Podesta
in the White House. Has an axe to grind on this
issue, too, because remember, he tweeted at the
end of Obama's second term, you know, my biggest
failure was not to have Obama release the UFO
file and made the same kind of statement with
Clinton. So certainly if Mr. Podesta is listening
in the White House, you know, I'm here to help.
You know, I hope that you're championing this
within the executive office of the president.
And, you know, the other. Speaking of people
like Goldwater who've made some weird non sequitur
kind of admissions, there's a John Stossel interview
of Mike Pompeo, the former CIA director, about
two years ago or so. You can find it online where
Pompeo talks about the JFK file and dismisses
it or something about like there's no boogeyman
here. But then he quickly says. Oh, I've seen
the UFO file too, and we have bigger problems.
But at least the way it was edited, John Stossel
didn't even follow up, at least the way the final
cut was. I'm like, dude, if I was John Stossel,
I'd be like, what do you mean, Mike Pompeo? You've
seen the UFO file, and we have bigger problems.
And UFO file, the way I interpret that, is a
long existing. File or briefing document or something
that he had access to. So I think I think the
former CIA director, Mike Pompeo, should probably
clarify what he said two years ago. Next, if
anybody interviews him next, ask Mike that question.
What did he mean? Yeah, we have bigger problems.
Well, we certainly have bigger problems in terms
of our current existence, specifically with what
you were talking about earlier, the proxy wars
and collapse of society. As we know it, which
it seems. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I feel for the
Ukrainian and the Israeli people. You know, I'm
not taking any particular side, but certainly
people forget U .S. aid in these wars. What's
the like most expensive thing if you've studied
phases of conflict? It's the reconstruction costs
after the conflict. So we in it for like triple
digit billions like the war on terror. I mean,
certainly. The Israeli conflict is a great distraction
because, you know, like Russia is very tight
with Iran. Right. And personal opinion, you know,
this is my own personal opinion, but I'm sure
they commiserated and was like, can you start
a two front war because we would like to win
in Ukraine. And this will distract the U .S.
because Israel is a longtime, you know, Middle
East ally. So it's brilliant. It's brilliant.
Public opinion. I mean the virtue signalers on
social media have essentially completely forgotten
about Ukraine. It's all about Israel and Palestine.
Yeah, you don't even see it. And I understand
what the National Security Council determination
was that they've discussed publicly where they're
kind of like trying to drain Russia's military
capability and annexation of Ukrainian territory
because they don't want … Russia's sphere of
influence to further enter that caucus region
and stuff. But, yeah, it's funny. Like you said,
it's like you don't even talk about Ukraine.
It's all about Israel now, which is a horrible
conflict on both sides. Like it's just unfortunate.
Without a doubt. Yeah. It was a very interesting
statement, though, that we have bigger problems.
So even if we do, this seems to be like a – this
is such a human question. Because it's one of
the biggest mysteries. Obviously, you know, there's
the Fermi paradox. Where are they, right? And
if you look out into the cosmos, if you've ever
gone on a clear night and you look out and you
realize those are all stars and those stars are
all surrounded by planets and there's literally
hundreds of billions of them. The Drake equation,
you can calculate what probable sentient life.
And I've been an amateur astronomer since I've
been a kid and I've never... Crazy enough, I've
never seen anything remarkable. I've seen some
stuff that could have been ball lightning and
some satellite passes that weren't registered
online. You could actually check to see if there's
going to be like an iridium flare or something
like that. And maybe that was a satellite pass,
maybe not. But I've never seen in my personal
life, never seen anything weird. And it's funny
you mentioned the Fermi paradox and it's like,
well, where are they? OK, well, you know, if
you're sentient life, you're certainly going
to have sophisticated cover concealment and deception
techniques. It goes back to like what Jacques
Vallée's work is, where, you know, the phenomenon
presenting itself in different ways. But also
I live in the mountains of Colorado. Right. So
there is a mountain lion den about 10 miles from
my house in Colorado. Literally, you know, I
am. There are lower predatory sentience and higher
predatory sentience. And I'm using this as a
device or an analogy for NHI and us. Well, on
a day -to -day basis, I don't care what a mountain
lion is doing. I may hike in that area to explore,
but day -to -day, I'm afraid of it and I don't
care. And think about what humans might be, unfortunately,
to some of these higher sentience where... This
monkey has a nuke. Holy shit. Keep them in the
cage. We don't want to go anywhere near them.
And so people think that there would be some
kind of open contact with some higher sentience
that is either visiting Earth or from another
dimension or whatever the origin is. But they
probably don't care. They're probably neutral
at best and maybe actually fearful of us in some
sense. We're the progeny of, you know, personal
opinion, progeny of some experiment. And it's
almost like living in the matrix, but it's not
like an actual simulation. It's like we want
the simulation to go. We don't want to intercede
because we want to see what, you know, Homo sapiens
sapien 2 .0 is going to do after the Great Flood
or something like that, right? Yeah. That's one
of the more fascinating ideas is that we're some
sort of a product of. genetic engineering i honestly
would not be surprised i don't know that to be
true but we're so different than everything else
is here so different so beyond different i mean
there's not another primate that is even reasonably
close i mean if you there's uh speculation amongst
primatologists and there's a not even speculation
they believe that chimpanzees in particular have
entered into the stone age So they're at the
beginning of the Stone Age. They're using tools,
you know, and there's obviously some learned
behavior. Like there's some footage of orangutans
using spears to hunt fish with. Oh, interesting.
Have you ever seen that? No, I've not. It's cool
as shit. There's an orangutan that's hanging
on a branch over a river or a body of water and
he's stabbing at fish with a spear, which is
incredible. I mean, they're using tools. I mean,
we know they use tools to extract termites and
the like. Look at that. Oh, that's crazy. How
crazy is that? I mean, he's clearly hunting.
I mean, he's going fishing in Borneo. I mean,
that is, you know, at the very least, a distant
cousin of us. Some, you know, intelligent. primate
that is to figure out a way to use tools. How
long would it take an orangutan to become a human
being? How many millions of years are we talking
about of evolution? But it seems to be that process
has started. Interesting. But why are we so fucking
different than everything else? Yeah, like are
we a product of Darwinian evolution or what is
it? Punctuated equilibrium is obviously another
theory. And I'm not an anthropologist by any
means. I've watched some Netflix episodes. Yeah,
me too. A lot of YouTube. But yeah, we seem to
be oddly Advanced. Advanced. And we seem to dispossess
other skills. I mean, it goes back to like the
Stargate program. Right. You know, with the declassified
by Clinton and sensibly canceled, I guess, in
96, you know, where you had people trained in
remote viewing and like. There was feedback loops
to confirm what they saw was real and either
satellite imagery or human sources where they
sketched out a room of where there's hostages
and they got a hostage out and they're like,
and this is a real story actually. And they're
like, did you have a source in that room? How
do you know where all the corridors were and
everything? I was like, no, actually, Pat Price
remote viewed you. And he's like, what the fuck?
So there's something going on there. And that's
like a Gary Nolan. you know, has studied a lot
of this stuff. Very famously, he's pointed out
the caudate patinum in the brain, right? It's
this horseshoe shaped thing in the middle of
your brain that if he's done MRIs and CAT scans,
and I hope I'm not butchering his work. Gary
might, you know, slap me later, but it lights
up with people who have those kind of skills.
They have like an overactive caudate patinum
in the brain. And it's like, okay, well. Is it
a transceiver of some sort? I'm guessing that's
the case. Is it an emerging property of human
beings as we evolve? Exactly. And we're seeing
just a few human beings that have this stuff.
And then if it is a transceiver, where's the
information? Is it in a higher spatial dimension?
Or how are they extracting? How are they able
to basically be non -locality, right? They're
able to project themselves somehow, their consciousness.
to a, and this is a declassified example from
Stargate, a Russian missile base, sketch the
crane and where the silos are, what the status
is. You know, satellite comes over, takes a picture,
and it's exactly the way they sketched it. How'd
they do that? Like, it's certainly real because
there is a feedback loop. Now, there's a lot
of charlatans in the psychic space and all that,
but, like, at least that government program,
and I've talked to... You know, how put off and
people who actually ran that program at SRI for
the CIA, then DIA and the army. And that seems
to be the men who's staring at goats. Right.
The George Clooney movies, the famous movie based
on the Stargate program seems to be legit as
far as we can measure from a feedback perspective.
What was the explanation for the discontinuation
of that program? Oh, gosh, I'm not a scholar
on that. Something Russell Targ or Hal Pudov
or one of those guys could explain if it was
just like I got caught up in the bureaucracy
or what. I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah. So the
idea of that being an emergent property of human
beings as we evolve has always been fascinating
to me because there's. There's certainly something
that goes on with human communication other than
we make sounds that represent objects and physical
things and that the other person interprets those
sounds and understands it. There's communication
between human beings that's – Oh, acoustic communication,
like the symbol rate, if you will, is really
slow. Like if you weren't able to consciously
communicate, a .k .a. the hokey term like telepathy,
right? And it's funny because that's what a lot
of people espouse that have had, you know, alleged
contacts. Right. A lot of the people that Dr.
John Mack at Harvard studied over the years where
they felt like they were getting hit with like
a QR code. It was like instant knowledge or they
heard. Like somebody speaking to them non -verbally
in some way that they couldn't even conceptualize
through, you know, acoustic communication or
talk, if you will. And it's the same thing like
book Proof of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander, MD.
I remember reading it when I was in Afghanistan
and I was like, this is a crazy experience. This
medical doctor has necrotizing fasciitis of the
brain. It's a near -death experience. And he
gets this like crazy. Like The Feelings of Love,
other stuff. It's a really interesting book.
It's like a scientific take on a doctor's own
near -death experience. But when he came back
and somehow the fasciitis didn't eat away his
brain and he was cognitively normal, he tried
to write down what information or facts of the
universe he learned during his NDE. And he couldn't
even put it in English. It was like crazy. He
didn't know how to translate it. Into our language,
it was just there was no like adjectives, if
you were adverbs, et cetera, that could describe
the knowledge that he knew like natively when
he had that near death experience is a really
fascinating book. And he talks about the disease
he had and his physiological condition at the
time. Really interesting. What was he able to
discern from that? What was the overall message?
Yeah, it was like this – there's the message
of love, which is positive. But it was like this
interconnectedness. Everybody is kind of connected
in a way that they don't really realize. I mean
you think about – this is getting really trippy.
A lot of thoughts with people who are smarter
than me. I like to talk to them about this kind
of stuff where – If you're, say, a higher dimensional
sentience, right, the act of creation – so act
of creation for 3D beings is having a baby, right?
It's producing another three -dimensional object.
Well, if you're in five -dimensional space or
even, I guess, four -dimensional physical space,
what if act of creation is creating other conscious
realities and other universes? And the act of
creation is creating the universe where you,
me – Jamie, whatever, we might be connected to
the same, I'll call it universal consciousness
or a higher dimensional sentient life force or
life form. I know that sounds like really out
there, but when you think about it, there's a
lot of other theologies out there that basically
espouse that. I have a very good friend of mine
who's a PhD level kind of higher up in the Mormon
church and basically the Mormon theology. It's
kind of like that. The Mormons say you were once
with God or like God, but then you were sent
down to like a lower plane of existence. And
that's literally what I'm talking about right
now, but just in a secular sense. So maybe we're
all created beings from, and this, you know,
this doesn't like hurt Christian theology, whatever.
It's actually kind of enforcing the fact there's
a creator and we're literally created in the
image of a creator, literally. And that's kind
of. what life really is. It's like, think about
it's like a weird 3D plus time temporal sensory
experience for a higher dimensional sentience.
You're here to experience time in this weird
linear fashion and to experience yourself divorced
from yourself to gain knowledge and to report
back is maybe what life is. And that's just kind
of my own personal theology as a summation of
just During COVID, I was really bored. And that's
what I was looking at. Well, I extrapolate that
to the creation of AI. And I think if you think
about human beings as something that creates
things, I think ultimately we create a new life.
Exactly. What if higher sentience is creating
some kind of artificial intelligence? You know,
call it like a commander data from Star Trek
Next Gen, right? Not even really, it's made in
the image of the creator in some sense, but it's
not even, and that's what might get sent into
these like long endurance, you know, missions.
And of course, you know, people are like, well,
why would they, you know, come here so far to
crash, et cetera? Or are they crashing on purpose?
Do you know that for a fact? Or are they crashing
by accident? And what if they're like, like von
neumann replicating probes right you can google
that but you know what if they're just throw
away which volume and probes are just like throwaway
spacecraft like yeah they're just we send it
out we don't really care what the mission success
is or they're seeding us or as jacques valet
says it's like you know here's the key can you
unlock the cage kind of thing right yeah so and
it seems that It would be a long, I mean, if
you think about biological evolution, so long,
lengthy process. And if ultimately that led us
to the creation of a technology that's far superior
in terms of its capabilities of understanding
and thinking, that seems to be what's happening.
And that's one of the reasons why so many people
are concerned about it. The term artificial intelligence
is a very strange term because it's not artificial.
It's intelligence. It's silicon -based instead
of carbon -based, right? Yeah. It doesn't have
blood and tissue and cells, but it has something
that's superior. It also has something that's
much more scalable, right? We have a very obvious
biological limitation in terms of evolution.
If you look at evolution, and we turn back to
the orangutans that are fishing. They're obviously
learning new things, and those new properties,
those new things we assume will be encoded in
their genetics and passed to their children.
Do you have children? No. I have three dogs.
I'm a fluffy dad. The problem is dogs don't learn
from – well, they do. But one of the most bizarre
things about children is that they have properties
that are clearly – it's hard to say, right? Because
my children obviously have the example of my
wife and myself, and they obviously see a lot
of how we live our life and, you know, discipline
and hard work and creativity and all those things.
But there's also, they seem to have gifts that
are, they seem to be clearly genetic. Yeah. And
artistic gifts that just seem extraordinary,
that are unusual, that I had when I was younger,
that I was an illustrator. I have a young daughter
that's just extraordinarily good at art. Really?
Used to illustrate? Yeah. That's what I wanted
to do. I wanted to be a comic book illustrator.
Oh, interesting. Interesting. Yeah. But then
I have this other daughter that's... super gifted
athletically like she can learn things really
quickly it's extraordinary it's and it's weird
and and also this drive that she has i had a
drive from poverty and from you know a lot of
like stuff that was wrong with my childhood that
seemed to be i had this need to prove myself
she doesn't have any of those problems but she
also has this insane drive It's weird. It's a
weird discipline. It's extraordinary. That seems
to be very different than most kids. And I just
think that's an emerging genetic. I think there's
something encoded in whatever you are as a human
that as you replicate and as you have children,
they have that. They have some of that. And I
think that is this process, this biological evolutionary
process with humans. There's so much chaos. There's
so much – I mean you could breed with a dumb
person. You could find a hot dumb person and
have a baby with them. Now your kid is fucked.
We see that. Obviously some people are just born
with brains that just don't work that well. It's
just like I'm sure you've met some dull -minded
people and you try to talk to them about things
and there's no one there. You're right. So, OK,
good luck and good luck with whatever children
you have and whatever – what are they going to
have? What tools do they have? Yeah, we're genetically
encoding. artificial intelligence now. I think
that's where you were going. Yeah, where I'm
going with it, these biological limitations that
we have, it's very clear that we're essentially
dealing with a Model T as opposed to a Tesla,
which is just insanely superior to these ancient
vehicles. We create technology. I've always said
this. If you looked at the human race, if you
were some sort of an outside observer and you
stumbled upon this... thing that occupies this
planet, this apex predator of this planet, you
would say, what is this thing doing? What's making
technology? All the other things that it does.
It does all these other things, but what do these
things generally motivate? What do they move
towards? They move towards the advancement of
technology and innovation. There's a constant...
aspect of human beings. If you trace us back
to the earliest civilizations, to what we have
today, things constantly improve unless something
goes horribly wrong, unless there's some sort
of a natural disaster or some sort of genocide.
If something doesn't happen to these creatures,
what do they do? They consistently make better
things. Well, that, if you extrapolate, if you
follow that to its natural progression, well,
what is that going to get to? Well, once they've
invented computers and once they've invented
devices and once they've invented things that
enhance their personal understanding of the world
around them, which we already have now with phones.
We already have with the Internet. We already
have with our ability to communicate with each
other. The newest, latest Android phones that
are coming out. Will translate natively on your
phone in real time in conversation So you could
be speaking Portuguese to me. I would hear it
in English on a phone call, which is fucking
crazy It's like universal translator. Yeah track
literally. Yes, literally literally well that
that is a real thing now without having to use
Google Translate It's native to the latest Android
operating system What you you could? If you just
sit down and said, well, where's that going?
Well, it's going to something way more sophisticated
and way more capable than we are biologically
with our limitations. Our monkey bodies, we are
the ancestors or the people that emerged from
that distant cousin, that orangutan that's using
a stick to hunt fish. We're going in this direction.
What would be the most logical way we would...
We completely accelerate that. We create something
that does what we do but does it way better.
Yeah, it's almost like to permanently harbor
our consciousness eventually, right? Right. That
kind of makes sense. It does make sense. And
there's a sort of understanding of that that
leads to this fear of our demise that everyone,
you know, Elon's openly discussed this. Sam Altman
and I were talking about it. Open AI is doing
with chat GPT -4 versus chat GPT -5, which is
going to be insanely superior. Well, what is
chat GPT -15 going to do? You know, is that going
to be the president of the world? You know, like
what are we going to bypass government and just
say, you know, it's obviously like this administration
is incredibly corrupt and flawed and influenced
by the military industrial complex. It's not
good for the world. It's not good for the environment.
We need something that is far superior that doesn't
have all these motivations. What would that be?
That would be an artificial intelligent creation
that we use to govern life. Yeah. I mean, that
sounds nuts, but I think that's probably a better
solution than humans with all of our fucking
flaws and issues and greed and envy and all the
things that we have. That would be a better version
of it. But what are we saying then? Are you programming
empathy into it, though? Probably not. Probably
not, which is terrifying. But we will become
obsolete. Or we will merge. And if we merge,
it will completely change what we are. And I
think that's very likely what's going to take
place. I think the initial stages will be some
sort of merging with technology. And then from
that merging... It will essentially realize,
well, why are we even fucking around? Like this,
this new thing is so superior and it doesn't
have all the pitfalls. It doesn't have all the
problems. It's not short sighted. It's not going
to drain the ocean of fish so that we can make
sushi. It's going to do something. It's going
to be far more. far more aware of all of the
different effects of each individual act and
how we affect everything around us and what is
net positive and what is net negative and how
to avoid all these things. I really firmly believe
that we are this biological caterpillar that
is making a cocoon. To create the electronic
butterfly. And we don't even know what we're
doing while we're doing it. We're just doing
it. And I think materialism is also baked into
that. One of the main problems with human beings
in terms of the ridiculousness of our actions.
We're so materialistic. People are constantly
wanting to get the newest, latest, greatest thing.
What's the motivation behind that other than
social status? Well, the motivation is that that's
what fuels innovation. If we all just stopped
right now and said, hey, you know what? iPhone
15 is pretty fucking dope. We don't need to make
new iPhones. Let's just keep fixing those and
just like. Exist the way we are right now and
let's clean up the air and let's clean up the
ocean Let's clean up the sea and clean up the
rivers and clean up the forests like let's just
fix the earth Yeah, and then no we don't do that.
We know I want iPhone 16 You know when when is
the iPhone gonna be able to communicate completely
just with satellites? We don't have to worry
about cell phones Well, it's almost like a drug
addiction right they did studies where people
receiving in text messages is the dopamine rush
to yeah It's almost like an artificial drug addiction
you're fueling because you want More responsive
tech, more integrating with your – make easier
so you can get your fix quicker and more efficiently
or something like that. I don't know. And why?
I mean why would fucking staring at a stupid
cell phone give you a dopamine rush? Well, it
does. It does. It does. I'm not a biologist.
And you get addicted to your goddamn phones.
And then why would it be that we would innovate
and create things like Instagram and TikTok that
are insanely addictive? To the point where you
look down and you've spent three hours staring
at nothing. Nonsense. Why is that? Well, that
ensures continual use of this device until it
lures you into this ultimate integration. Well,
that's right. There's people at Meta, I guess
now, or Facebook, where they actually have a
whole team of scientists on how to make their
apps more addictive, right? Demons. Yeah. Fucking
demons. Yeah, I don't use social media. I have
never tweeted in my life. Really? That's amazing.
I mean I have like – I used Facebook back in
the day when it first came out when I was going
to college. Yeah, I don't have Instagram. I've
never tweeted in my life. I don't intend to because
you don't want to get sucked into that mind virus,
which is like – people responding to you, and
you have to feel like you have to respond back.
I don't even touch it. Well, I'm very aware of
those traps, so I don't do that. I used to, but
many years ago I stopped interacting with people
because I just realized, like... Overall, it's
negative. There's positive aspects to it. It's
great for people that like you and they're fans.
It's great that you're an actual human, that
you interact. Occasionally, I'll comment on a
post like, that's really awesome, congratulations,
that kind of stuff. But then I get the fuck out
of there, and I don't read any responses. And
I've found that that's the very best way to mitigate
all the negative aspects of social media. But
then you're also dealing with algorithms. You're
dealing with things that recognize what makes
you more likely to engage. Things are constantly
showing you the things that you engage. And,
you know, it's not necessarily even positive.
It's just whatever you engage with that's coming
your way. Whether it could be cool stuff, like
maybe you're just, like, really into muscle cars
and it shows you a lot of muscle cars. Or it
could be, like. murder like i see a lot of murder
on instagram yeah fucking crazy yeah i'm a car
guy so like my feed is like oh do you ever think
about this mod for your ford bronco oh those
lights look nice i'm gonna wire that shit up
next week you know so yeah i get those too yeah
it's bad yeah i have a problem with that i have
a car problem yeah my wife doesn't allow me to
have the good stuff anymore so i have to you
know Keep it under a certain price. That's good.
That's good. I'm more actually interested in
old stuff than I am in new stuff. You like rat
rod stuff, right? Well, I like muscle cars. Very
specifically, 1960s muscle cars. Those are my
favorite because what they are to me is it's
a toy that you could drive. Yeah. It's like a
ride that gives me immense pleasure to just drive
around in. It's really fun. I don't even have
to go fast. It's just going. around in a 1970
Chevelle, just driving it. It's hard to describe
for someone who has never experienced it, but
it's just so engaging, and it's like you're on
this drug. It's like everything, you feel all
of it, and you're engaging all of these senses.
It's very tactile, very mechanical. Yeah, I totally
understand that. I mean, the only kind of old
cars I like are like a... Black Lincoln Continental
suicide doors from The Matrix. I remember seeing
that when I was a teen when The Matrix came out.
I'm like, that car is badass. It's like totally,
I want to have whatever Morpheus drove. They're
art. They're essentially art. It's functional
art. It's a piece of art that you could actually
drive around in. And it gives you this very bizarre
sensation. But the point is... That's not most
people. Most people want the newest, latest,
greatest thing. And there's a motivation to get
the newest, latest, greatest thing that I think
if you just follow that up to its logical conclusion,
it's going to create life. It's going to create.
I mean, how many films have been made about this?
You know, Ex Machina and all these different
films. That's right. That's what we're going
to do. I mean, there's no way we're not going
to do that. If I had to bet on one thing, if
the human race doesn't get wiped out by a meteor
or a nuclear war, we're going to fucking do that.
We're going to make a life form. One hundred
percent. And it's going to be almost instantaneously
able to figure out all the flaws in its own personal
programming and make a much better version of
itself. If it's sentient, if it has the ability
to make decisions. Well, I think we're close.
I mean, I think I saw some stuff. There's like
a open AI fiasco going on right now. And there's
rumor that they might have cracked artificial
general intelligence, right? AGI. And that's.
Oh, Jesus. That's frightening. I mean, it was
like, was it Sam Altman? I think we're talking
about. I think there's like the board of open
AI. There's some shuffle. I was just reading
when I woke up this morning. Well, they removed
him, but then apparently the shareholders were
like, what the fuck are you doing? And there
was so much outrage that they're trying to bring
him back instantly. But Elon had a very good
point. What was the motivation behind that? And
when you think about the implications for humanity
as a whole, because this is such an emerging
technology that's so overwhelmingly powerful,
what happened? Like, what's going on? Like, I
think this is one of those things where, like,
we need to know, like, what was the motivation
behind your decision? And if it was that he was
holding back information about the actual creation
of artificial general intelligence, that it's
already. It's already happened. Yeah. And that
he's like hesitant because he's a little cagey
in how he talks about stuff. When I was talking
to him about, you could tell, it's like a little
bit like he kind of knows that he is at the forefront
of this technology that worst case scenario replaces
us. Yeah. And, you know, going back to. Is it
programmed with any kind of empathy, et cetera,
depending on if it handles critical? I guess
the thing I saw in the government, because I
did a lot of cyber stuff in my career, is as
AI gets more advanced, you create, say, offensive
cyber tools that literally have a mind of their
own. And if, say, theoretically, you release
that on some target. And you might not be able
to touch that target again. So it's a one time
whoop. You put it in there. Well, how do you
control it? It's almost like Skynet and the Terminator.
I hate to use that analogy, but like that was
my fear when I was working at certain agencies
working on offensive cyber tools. I'm like, oh,
my God, this is not good. And then, of course,
with cyber, right? It's the attribution. Actor
attribution is the biggest thing. How do you
know it was, hypothetically, Russia that used
the cyber weapon to attack you? It could have
been another actor masquerading as that foreign
power using tactics, techniques, procedures,
IP proxy operations to hide where it was coming
from. So it's like you have non -kinetic fires
that can potentially create mutually assured
destruction because you could take out critical
infrastructure, blow up the power grid, etc.
No radiation, but potentially no attribution
or can confuse the attribution such that you
don't even know who to go to war with. It's really
scary to me. It is scary. Yeah. It's already
happening with social media. I mean, think about
how many troll farms there are on social media
that are just stirring up discontent. I mean,
it's an active program that we know that Russia
uses that is trying to undermine democracy and
try to keep people fighting with each other.
And it's been very effective. And if you look
at social media, it's just fucking chaos. It's
just people yelling at you, particularly Twitter
or X. And Facebook. It's like a lot of what's
going on. One of the studies showed that out
of the top 20 Christian sites that are on Facebook,
19 of them are run by Russian troll farms. If
we know that that on a relatively rudimentary
scale, if you look at the impact of social media
versus the impact of artificial intelligence,
they're already doing that. They're already hiding
who's responsible and what's the goal and how
to manipulate consciousness and how to manipulate
influence and how people think about things and
what the public opinion on things are. It's already
very effective. imagine that a creation of artificial
intelligence would radically accelerate that.
A hundred percent. Then I remember. The deepfake
stuff was a real problem for my old community
because we're like, holy shit, you could really
fake some stuff. And you've got to develop algorithms
to make sure you can analyze, oh, hey, that is
fake. Because you've seen some of the deepfakes
where it's like Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Yes. The Tom Cruise guy. Holy shit. Holy shit.
That is crazy. Like you're going to be able to
bring actors from the dead back at this point.
You're going to have like Cary Grant, you know,
doing a musical or whatever, you know, whatever,
you know. Bruce Willis, who has some sort of
degenerative neurological condition, sold his
likeness for the ability to make commercials
and all sorts of other things. He's essentially
saying he's fading, unfortunately, and now he
will give this thing, which is this property,
which is Bruce Willis, this famous person, and
they will be able to create versions of him.
starring in films oh and certainly if you train
an ai model just like chat gpt you could actually
get almost like what they would normally say
what their knowledge 100 and it's almost like
having a permanent historian too you could like
you know if you want to talk to clint eastwood
about his films in the 60s after clint eastwood
you know passes you know right may he live forever
but like That would be crazy. It would be really
interesting. I mean, he might actually be able
to give you advice. He might be your personal
advisor. I know. That would be cool. I mean,
that's probably one of the things that's going
to come out of this. But when we think about
empathy, we also think about just human beings
and the way we communicate and interact with
each other. Empathy is very important. And also
compassion and forgiveness. All these things
are very important qualities because we recognize
that we're very flawed. When you create something
that is not flawed, then the need for empathy,
the need for all these things that we attach
to human emotions and human reward systems, they
will no longer be a significant issue because
you're going to be dealing with something that
operates on a higher plane. It might be the answer
to all that ails us, which is so terrifying for
us because we recognize that. What we derive,
the joy that we derive from love, from companionship,
from friendship, from community, it's like a
key component to life on earth for us. But it's
also because we recognize that without that,
we are the Mongols. Without that, we're Nazi
Germany. Without that, we're Hamas. We're whatever
the fuck we are that we recognize as being like...
evil or dangerous or horrible about humans. When
we think about the worst case scenario for human
beings. We always think about things like the
Holocaust. We think about what is the worst acts
that human beings are capable of with our current
programming and our biological flaws. Like what
are the worst things we could do to terrible,
awful things? Well, if we don't have those problems,
if we no longer have envy, we no longer have
greed, we no longer have evil, we don't have
any of those properties. They don't exist anymore.
We just have this new form of consciousness.
That's far superior. That's an interesting parallel
because you have – you're no longer maybe apex
sentience if you have artificial intelligence
governing certain things. Right. And I think
that's also kind of this psychological issue
with this UAP issue where we might not be the
apex predator. We may be that mountain lion and
we're going to have to be comfortable knowing
that we're going to be vulnerable. There's people
far superior that may have malevolent intentions.
Maybe not. I don't know. And almost be humbled
the fact that like, sorry, we're not the smartest
of God's creation. And that might be really hard
for a lot of people to process. And I think that's
probably certainly I would imagine one of the
deliberations they must have done years ago.
We can't disclose because, you know, people are
not going to feel comfortable in that worldview.
One hundred percent. And they're not. And then
I wonder if these things that we're experiencing
are the natural progression of what happens when
you do seed life on planet or you do accelerate
biological life. You do have some sort of a genetic
intervention where you take this thing that has
emerging intelligence and you accelerate it.
And that that thing will in turn, with all of
its desire for innovation and creativity and
also all of its desire to control resources and
have power and have influence, that it will eventually
lead to the creation of what we're seeing. that
these things are the next stage of this process.
And that maybe we're dealing with one form of
that next stage, but there's another stage that's
a million years more advanced than that, that's
far superior, that doesn't even have a biological
limitation in terms of physical space, that it
exists completely in some other undetectable
realm. that no longer thinks about biological
limitations of life and death and communication.
It exists completely in some other space, that
that's what these things are. And then I always
wonder when there's a crash or when there's a
body or when there's this and that, and people
say, well, if they're so advanced, why are they
crashing? Well, hold on. Which version are we
looking at? We're not saying there's one thing
that's visiting us. If there's one thing that's
visiting us and we know where this one thing
is, we could say, oh, well, that thing, it deals
with a completely different solar system. The
sun is vulnerable. It doesn't have asteroid clouds.
It doesn't have all these different things where
it's like it doesn't have a planet that has super
volcanoes. Maybe life evolved in a more stable
environment and it allowed it to get to a far
greater technological level, but not. Yeah. We
might be testing the extent of their adaptability.
And like I said, are they crashing by accident?
Right. Mission failure or on purpose? Right.
So and then, of course, with the far distances
and everything, I mean, if they're traveling
here through some kind of space time metric engineering
construct, you know. The distances are not as
vast as you think, right? It could be going through
some kind of traversable wormhole or something
like that where it's like a walk down the street
for them. It's not a thousand light years. Well,
just think about communication. Communication
used to be you had to get in front of someone
and you had to talk to them. So you had to know
their language. You had either nonverbal or verbal
communication. You had to figure out a way to
say things to them. That's no longer the case.
Obviously, with this new Android operating system,
it translates. Also, the fact that you could
have a fucking FaceTime call with someone in
Japan right now and you instantaneously can communicate
back and forth, which is insane. That's a vast
distance. But for us, it's like stupid. It's
like easy. Vast distance and instantaneous. I
mean, I was just in Scotland and I was FaceTiming
my daughter back home. Yeah. Fucking crazy. You're
nine hours by plane and you're having instantaneous
communication, which is wild shit. But that's
just – that's fucking – that's like Pong. That's
Morse code. That's like – it's very primitive
in terms of what if you physically can be in
these places instantaneous? Yeah. And why would
we assume that that's not eventually going to
be on the menu? Yeah. It's just like the – conventional
propulsion stuff. We're not using an Elon Musk
starship to get here. It's like they're doing
something else. We talked to someone from the
1800s and you said, you're going to go to Nevada?
Jesus Christ. You know how far that is on a wagon?
That's months, man. But no, you fly to Vegas,
it's two hours. It's fucking easy. We know that
now. So why would we assume that there's a limitation
to that advancement? I don't think there is.
Yeah, and of course... A friend of mine, Eric
Weinstein, certainly exposes we don't even have
the right theoretical frameworks right now. He
has his own geometric unity theory, and he's
way smarter than I am. He's too smart. He's confusing.
Yeah. He starts talking and you're like, slow
down. If he calls me, I'm like, you've got to
call me in the morning after my 24 -ounce Monster
Energy drink or I can't even keep up, man. He's
on another level. He's got some unique theories
himself about where all this stuff is coming
from. And it's all very, very, very interesting
and intriguing. Also makes sense. All of it makes
sense, including being visited. You know, I had
this conversation with Neil deGrasse Tyson, like,
why would they be interested in us? I'm like,
what the fuck are you talking about? We're super
interested. Yeah. Neil, I mean, obviously he's
a fine science communicator, kind of the success
and successor of kind of the Carl Sagan kind
of thing. I think Carl Sagan was a little bit
more open minded. Yeah. I like Carl better. I'm
more of a fan. Wish he was still alive. I love
to smoke weed with that guy. He's really into
weed. Oh, really? Yeah, really, really into it.
I remember my aunt gave me Cosmos by Carl Sagan
when I was in middle school. And it was that
book was from the 80s. But that book tripped
me out. And I was like, I want to study science.
And I read. It was Brief History of Time by Stephen
Hawking. And I read those two books when I was
like in eighth grade, and I was like, this is
trippy. I want to study astronomy. This is insane.
But I ultimately used kind of my technical background
to be a spook for the government. But I still
observe. I have a big telescope, and I live like
super dark skies in Colorado. I still have that
boyhood fascination of the cosmos. And ironically,
I found out something else that kind of confirms
that the cosmos is not lifeless. And, you know,
God paints with a broad brush as like the Vatican
has espoused a couple of years ago when they
said this is OK with their theology. I have a
theory that the universe itself is God. I think
that's like what I was talking about with, you
know, multidimensional creator creating universes.
I think we have a very limited idea of when we
say God, when God created the heavens and like.
Right, right. But what are we saying? I think
it's the universe itself. I think it's one thing.
And that this one thing, it seeks to... Create
these things that continually push the envelope
and maybe gods themselves Eventually, I think
if you extrapolate from our ability versus the
ability of an amoeba and you continue to move
that along What does that do? Well, it's going
to be able to create universes. There's already
been like theoretical papers that have been written
about the creation of other things like black
holes, other things like a universe. Like what
is involved in the creation of a universe? What
is involved in the Big Bang? Can that be replicated?
Well, not now, but if AI becomes sentient and
AI eventually makes far greater versions of itself.
If it keeps doing that, what are the limits of
its potential? Creates the matrix. Literally.
Literally. Literally creates a simulated environment
that's indiscernible. You can't tell the difference
between that and regular life. Well, maybe because
there is no difference. Maybe that is. I mean,
that's the theory of simulation theater. Yeah,
simulation theory. Yeah, familiar. And that is
a possibility because the universe seems like
a little too perfect. It's a little. strange,
very created to me. So just like we're in the
Goldilocks zone, perfect temperature, like it's
just real weird. How about the Big Bang itself?
What? What happened? Something smaller than the
head of a pin for no known reason becomes everything?
Yeah. Okay. And what's the universe expanding
into? It's like a quantum foam or whatever the
heck the latest theory is that's like beyond
me. And then it perhaps just retracts back down
to that. infinitely small thing and then expands
again and that this is an endless cycle and that
we're just so limited because of our biological
limitations or our life and death is such a small
little tiny blip. It's so minuscule in terms
of just the overall known life of the universe.
And then you have the James Webb telescope that's,
you know, there's people that question the actual
length of time that. occurred between the big
bang and now that maybe it might be far longer
and there's people like brian keating they say
that's not that's not correct it's just a a lack
of understanding of what we understand currently
about the creation of galaxies yeah because i
mean obviously the length of the age of the universe
keeps on getting older and older and a lot of
that's because of the the doppler fit doppler
shift right the red shift as the galaxies are
accelerating away um you know we can calculate
what their origin point probably was and how
long it took for them to speed up like that,
right? And only based on our current understanding.
Yes. Which is obviously at least fairly limited
in terms of what its potential is. Well, yeah,
like we still don't quite understand the origin
of the moon. The moon is at the right location
that causes solar and lunar eclipses. It's like
the right apparent size to block out the sun.
It's like super weird. Same thing with like Mars.
We're not sure like what happened there. where
Mars... Had some probable life on it. Either
a protoplanet hit it or there was some kind of
impact that vaporized stuff. And like, who knows?
Yeah. Who knows? And this is just this little
tiny neighborhood that we're looking at. It's
like we are in our backyard looking for evidence
of like life in Africa. You know what I mean?
You're not going to figure it out here. We're
just looking at it at such a small scale in terms
of what we could potentially. discover or potentially
observe. Yeah. Yeah. I often wonder, you know,
when we're seeing, especially with the idea of
UAPs, UFO crafts, if we're seeing a version of
what we will become or something like us becomes
if given enough time. I mean, there's like a
Dr. Mike Masters at Montana State. He literally
postulates. You know, he says time travelers,
we could debate time travel, but like he thinks
it might be like a advanced form of Homo sapien
is what we're seeing coming back. Yeah. Like
a breakaway civilization. And we're coming back
to see an older version of ourself that was left
on Earth or something like that. Well, the way
we would visit like North Sentinel Island and
visit those people that are trapped on that island
that are uncontacted. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And
then a lot of. And there's also like cargo cult
religions and stuff. You know, the South Pacific
in World War II, they worshipped the P -51 and
stuff like they thought those were UFOs. But
really, they were just us, you know. But we were
probably alien to them. Oh, 100%. I mean, just
look at how Cortez looked to the people that
had no idea that people could ride horses. Like,
what the fuck is going on? These guys are riding
horses? Yeah. These are gods. These white guys
coming in? What the heck? They come on a ship
in the ocean and they ride horses? Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah, it's all based on our limited
understanding. For someone, whether it's the
federal government or whether it's military contractors,
for someone to have key elements that could give
us a better understanding of this whole picture,
it's really inexcusable to not relay that to
all of humanity. So this is too much information
to be secret. It's too important. If it is real,
it's too important. for someone to have access
to just because they have power and money and
influence. Yeah. It seems insane. I mean, that's
the whole primer for what I did. I mean, I think
I'm a pretty moral and ethical person. I just
could not live with myself if I didn't try to
make a difference, even though it was very uncomfortable,
personal privacy. professional and personal health
was at risk. It also seems like the public understanding
and appreciation of these things, particularly
after the 2017 article in the New York Times,
has changed. There's been a shift. Whereas before,
if you would talk about UFOs or the idea of extraterrestrial
life, you were automatically lumped into this
group of people that believes in Bigfoot. It's
like you're in the Loch Ness Monster. You're
kind of a loon who likes fringe things because
you've probably got problems in your own life
you're not addressing. And so you're distracted.
It's like a gambler or something like that. You're
just like distracting yourself with this craziness
in order to ignore the reality of existence itself,
which is so complicated and difficult to manage.
And then I think that if we had a better understanding
of the overall scale. the potential of life in
the universe based on what we know like physical
evidence undeniable physical evidence that shows
us that we're not alone that would be a massive
change in just the overall shift of consciousness
on earth if we could understand that These territorial
disputes that we have, which are almost always
over resources or over land or over religions
and ideologies, if we could understand that these
are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe
itself. What is that effect that the people that
get into the space station have and astronauts?
Oh, the overview effect. The overview effect,
yes. William Shatner had that when he went up
in the Blue Origin thing. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm
sure everybody has it. I mean, I'm sure it's
just like you go like, oh, my God, like what
are we doing? Like this is one. And that's how
I felt. I mean, like after I found all this stuff,
I could have continued my career, you know, made
lieutenant colonel here this winter. Made senior
executive service in a year or two. Did national
security stuff. But I'm like sitting in my office
and I'm like, there's better things for me to
care about than Russian troop movements. Like,
we're not alone. Right. This is insane. Like,
I have to like blow the whistle on this. This
is insane. Because certainly the people we talked
to are not lying. And the documents I meticulously
went through. They were not forgeries. They were
not deception material. So it's just like I have
to do something. I'm sure you've seen those Freedom
of Information Act disclosure papers from the
CIA from – God, it was like the 1950s where they're
detailing all the various forms of life that
we know are currently – that currently exist.
And you remember that, Jamie? We pulled up that
document. Do you think you could find it? Jamie
will find it. It's like 1950 -something where
they were discussing these things. Interesting.
Yeah, I'm not sure which ones you're talking
about. I'd have to see them. It's pretty weird
stuff because, like, if they knew about this
in the 1950s, like, how did they know? Well,
there was, like, CIA docs about consciousness
and, like, weird remote viewing stuff. I mean,
besides the Stargate program that were released
in the FOIA reading room on CIA's website, too,
that are pretty trippy where, like, wow, CIA's
looking into some really interesting stuff. I
mean, there are... hardcore intel agency, what's
going on there? But it makes sense that they
would kind of have to find out if that's bullshit
or not. You can't ignore that if you're really
doing your job. If your job is intelligence,
like, okay, let's look at this. Or it's an aspect
of the phenomenon because it's like a reach out
from the crash retrieval program. Like, hey,
I need you to look into some weird stuff because
it might be the key unlock for something that
we got in a warehouse. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah.
As it stands right now, what what's the future
for this stuff? What's the future for these disclosures?
And what? Yeah. What are the bottlenecks? Well,
I mean, certainly from the governmental process,
you know, as long as the House doesn't kill the
Schumer amendment. And, you know, that's why
I'm discussing it here with you, because they
they don't pass it. It's going to be the greatest
setback to humankind in U .S. history, literally
that. So the presidential panel gets. And paneled
about 90 days or so after the passage of the
bill. So by Christmas, as long as it doesn't
get killed, we'll be in the National Defense
Authorization Act. Panel will be formed, say,
February, March. Then they have a 300 -day process
to develop an initial plan for the president.
And I don't know if Chuck Schumer and his staff
are being kind of... crafty or whatever, but
the 300 days, if you actually do it out, it's
like the election. So I don't know if they want
to make it an election issue, which certainly
if this act doesn't pass, I think it needs to
be an election issue because the senior executive
needs to rule on this if Congress can't get their
shit together, to be quite honest. And we have
a plan out to 2030 where this stuff starts getting
rolled out. Knock on wood, perfect storm. Things
could get delayed. But then in parallel, and
that's kind of why I helped found the Soul Foundation
with Gary Nolan and Dr. Peter Scafish, who's
an anthropologist as well, is we wanted to figure
out the STEM outreach. We wanted to figure out
the public policy, national policy to advise
the U .S. and its allies on this issue. You know,
and we're happy. Like I said, I'm not here to.
slap the government in its entirety and admonish
everybody. Like, I think there needs to be a
truth and reconciliation process, but I think
our foundation, we want to be like, okay, well
bring us in as a think tank. If, you know, based
on my experience and experience of my colleagues,
like you have an issue with X, well, let's figure
out how to roll this out and how to, you know,
incentivize the national science foundation to
look in this, make this like, you know, it's
dual use, right? You might develop, A unique
scientific process that actually works well with
nanobiology or something like that, but also
has dual use with UAP. So there's parallel tracks.
I mean, there's public discovery. There's like
the Galileo project with Avi Loeb, right, that
they're trying to on their own collect techno
signatures, which is I applaud that. I mean,
obviously, the government knows a lot about that,
but we don't want to obviously rely on the U
.S. government to do. all the work for us and
also to be honest. So I think having a parallel
track and, you know, Galileo Project, Soul Foundation,
Ryan Graves has his own foundation as well for
pilots and people who've seen unique things to
provide that data to people. So I think you got
to have those dual tracks and, you know, hopefully
we can create a tsunami event where the U .S.
government, its allies, and maybe our adversaries.
But really, if the U .S. government doesn't get
their uh house in order here i mean you could
have uh uncontrolled disclosure events such that
either maybe the non -human intelligence is like
yeah let's do it or what if one of our adversaries
decides to disclose and they become the messiah
figure on this and we lose sovereignty or national
supremacy in that regard from an open and honest
civil society perspective so i But I think the
governments were getting close, I think. We're
certainly closer than we've ever been before.
Just the fact that they brought you in to have
these conversations. Yeah, no, I'm still advising
the U .S. governments on this. And I'm trying
to carefully message this, put all the broad
things on the table. And I'm not trying to be
coy. I'm not trying to conceal anything. But
it's like there's real national security and
collateral damage. with just releasing this willy
-nilly. I'm just trying to get the government
to get a plan together here and just be open
and honest with the people of the world, really.
And there's still the bottleneck with these military
contractors that allegedly have access to these
things. Yeah, and to those guys, and I know some
of them, and the individuals that hold the keys.
Like this is a boon like this is don't look at
it like you're going to lose money. This is a
recruiting opportunity. Yes, you're going to
have to let other people in the cookie jar. That's
how a fair and free society works. And they should
be able to compete for work. And because that
was one of the main I talked to some individuals
that were in an informal session for a previous
administration on should we disclose or not for
a certain former president. And really insightful
what they told me. And one of the biggest. impasses
to disclosure wasn't the ontological shock from
a socioeconomic or theological perspective. It
was, well, there's some white collar crime. We
violated the federal acquisition regulations.
We sole source this work to some big companies
for decades. Contractors are going to litigate
this to the Supreme Court saying they lost billions
of projected income because they didn't get the
bid on the work. And it's going to be this like.
liability disaster for the US government. And
the problem with that is, is like, I understand
that. But like, that's why you need to have a
truth and reconciliation process. It's almost
like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
and post apartheid South Africa, where people
who committed like murder came in and was like,
this is what happened. Here you go. And you know,
they don't get convicted of those crimes. And
I'm not saying I mean, people who've committed
murder, as it relates to the subject, okay, we
should probably hold them accountable. But For
some of this stuff, there needs to be a process
where we kind of mitigate some of those unfortunate
legal issues. But that was one of the main issues
a certain group for a reasonably recent administration
came up with and advised that president, hey,
look, there's going to be a lot of Supreme Court
stuff. Let's not be that guy. So it's like that's
the barrier? That's the reason? Come on. Well,
it's ridiculous. It makes sense, though, that
they would think that way, because I do believe
that lawsuits would emerge from something like
that. Oh, certainly. And it's and also it's like
the government admitting that we can't protect
its citizenry. You know, you know, these non
-human intelligence, you know, want to do something
to you. Sorry, we don't have any countermeasures
to that. You know, it's like this. You know,
there's a social contract between the citizens
and the government. We can protect you, et cetera.
And like. In this case, it's like it's an enigma.
But I think this is almost like – remember like
after 9 -11? I was in high school when 9 -11
happened and people were afraid of dirty bombs,
terrorists. We didn't know what was going to
happen next. We lived in fear. But like we banded
together in the presence of fear and apprehension
and unknowing what the world was going to be.
And we made it through it. I mean that's a coarse
analogy to this. People just have to think in
that mindset like it's going to be a little scary.
It's not going to be like kumbaya. Let's move
the shit to the Masonian and check it out. It's
going to be awkward and things we're going to
have to address sociologically, I guess. Are
you optimistic about how all this lays out? I
am. I mean it's kind of like when I was testifying
in the public hearing. It's oddly bipartisan
in a good way. I had AOC and Matt Gaetz agreeing
on something, and they were smiling at each other.
That's crazy. This is crazy. I'm like, look,
there's AOC. There's Matt Gaetz. There's Tim
Burchette. I mean, there's people, Garcia, people
that wouldn't see eye to eye on most subjects.
Because it's such a human issue. Because they
want to know the truth, too. And I don't think
the leaders in Congress. want to be told that
they're second -class citizens. I mean, a lot
of presidents weren't briefed to everything.
Some presidents knew a lot more than others,
and I have a pretty good beat on that. And it's
like, wait, the chief executive that also forms
foreign policy, you don't tell them about ostensibly
a foreign element. So how do they, as chief of
state, how do they form foreign policy when you
don't fully brief them on a foreign element?
It's like classifying the existence of Russia.
Right. Right. So you're actually, you know, non
-constitutional by not allowing our commander
in chief all information sometimes, you know,
and I don't know what Harry Reid talked to Joe
Biden. Talk to Jake Sullivan or Avril Haines
and Avril Haines, if she's not briefed, like
she's supposed to be briefed to all intelligence
in the country. It's 50 U .S. Code Section 3024.
The director of national intelligence has allowed
everything from all federal agencies that's intel
related. Well, ma 'am, if you don't know what
I'm talking about, we have a problem because
you're not being briefed by CIA director and
some other agencies. Well, listen, David, I really
appreciate what you've done. I think you've done
a great service to humanity just by taking a
stand and communicating these ideas and letting
people know how much of this is real. And, you
know, you've opened up a world of discourse that
probably would not have existed if you hadn't
done that. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, this is not
easy. I'm sure. I appreciate it. Thank you very
much for being here. And good luck in the future.
Thank you. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.