WEBVTT

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And we're live. All right. Paul, first of all,

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welcome. Thank you for coming here. And you are

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probably one of the most requested people from

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the Internet that I've ever had. So I feel good

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about that. I'm honored. And you're the first

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guy ever to wear a mushroom hat. Okay. That's

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really a hat made out of mushrooms? Yeah, it's

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made from this amadou mushroom. It's called Foamy's

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Fomentarius. It grows on birch trees throughout

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the world. But this is an example of why I think

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shamanistically. Plants, mushrooms become significant.

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There's a plurality of benefits. So this mushroom

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is a fire starter mushroom. It allowed for the

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portability of fire. There's no doubt that we

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came from Africa. We migrated north. We discovered

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something new called winter. Oops. This allowed

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for the portability of fire. You can hollow this

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mushroom out, put embers of fire inside, and

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carry fire for days. If your clan could not rekindle

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fire in Europe in the wintertime, you would die.

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This hat is actually made by some ladies in Transylvania.

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Can I feel it? Yeah, and it's a hardwood conch.

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Oh, wow. But when you soak it in lye water, you

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know, ashes and water, it delaminates into this

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fabric. Whoa, let me feel that. It's very soft.

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It's also called German felt. Wow. It's extremely

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flammable. So it revolutionized warfare because

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during Napoleonic times, this is the... The punk

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that ignited gunpowder. Really? Even the Chinese

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invented gunpowder. The Europeans invented the

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rifle. So this allowed flint spark guns to ignite

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the gunpowder. This feels amazing. It is. How

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big a piece can you get? That's a great question.

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Depending on the size of the conch. On beets

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trees, they're much bigger than birch. Beets

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trees just naturally get larger. So the larger

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the conch, the more fabric you can tear. But

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this mushroom is made of mycelium. And basically

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that fabric is a cellular fabric called mycelium.

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And this is... I actually have one that caught

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on fire because somebody was smoking a joint

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near me, and the embers of the joint got on my

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hat. Did it just immediately go up? No, it burns

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really slowly, so it's a fuse. It's fantastic

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for delayed explosions. It's because you can

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light this thing, and beekeepers for hundreds

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of years used this for smoking the hives of bees.

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Because it's just, we could light it now. I mean,

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the whole thing would, one flick of the bick,

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and this thing will smoke. entirely in about

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10 minutes and turn nothing into white ash. Wow.

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Your fire alarms may go off, though. Yeah, probably.

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And so with this thing, this larger piece, they

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would hollow this out, put an ember in there.

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Would they have to blow on the ember as they

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hiked? Well, you could blow on it a little bit,

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and you cap it, and then you can put it in your

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pocket. The famous Iceman that was found on the

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border of Italy and Austria, he had this. tethered

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to his right side, which is a position of significance.

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You know, things that you need, like your knife,

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you know, and things that you want to make sure

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you have if you're right -handed, it's on the

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right side. So this one example, we have a thread

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of knowledge of use of mushrooms that goes over

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millennia, and most of those threads have been

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frayed or broken in the chain of knowledge. But

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this is one of the threads that was not broken.

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And it's significant, I think. We were much more

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dependent upon... mushrooms when we were forest

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people than we are now seemingly in the cities.

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But it's coming full circle very quickly. Well,

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mushrooms are weird in that some of them are

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incredibly edible and nutritious and other ones

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will kill you. And sometimes they look really

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similar to each other. Well, this is the mystery

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of mushrooms. And I think it speaks to also mycophobia,

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the fear of mushrooms. R. Gordon Watson first

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coined that term. When you think about it, in

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your visual landscape with animals, you see them

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for months, years, and plants. So you have a

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familiarity factor. But mushrooms that come up

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and disappear in four or five days, some of them

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can feed you. Some can kill you. Some can heal

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you. Some can send you on a spiritual journey.

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So to have something so powerful and yet so ephemeral,

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it's natural for humans to avoid that which they

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don't understand out of fear because they don't

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know the difference. Well, you know, 23 primates

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consume mushrooms, humans being one of them.

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And so that speaks to a long ancestral use of

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mushrooms going back, you know, in our primate

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evolutionary tree for a very, very long time.

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How many species of mushrooms are there? You

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know, you asked me that question five years ago.

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I would have said 1 .5 million. And now we're

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up to about 5 million is being estimated. Whoa.

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Fungi outnumber plants 5 to 10 to 1. And I just,

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you know, I speak at TED and I've gone to these

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TED conferences. But it's shocking. With the

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smartest brains in the world, not until just

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recently did they realize what us mycologists

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have known for a long time. 30 % of the soil

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mass, when you're walking on soil, the 30 % of

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the biological carbon is fungal. Whoa, whoa,

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whoa, whoa. Say that again. 30%. 30 % of soil.

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is fungal mass living and dead of healthy soil.

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And this is the biggest repository of carbon

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in the world in the ground is related to these

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fungal networks. So there is about 8 .3 to about

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10 million species on the planet. Right now,

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about half of those are fungal species. The outnumber

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plants up to 8 to 1, 10 to 1 by some estimates.

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Really nice, interesting metric. And one meter

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of a... Tree root. For every meter of a tree

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root, there's a kilometer of mycelium. Now think

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of that. Three feet versus... 2 ,200 feet. So

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the extensiveness of the mycelial network in

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our landscapes is vast. I call it Earth's natural

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internet. These are membranes that are literally

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sensitive. I think they're sentient. They respond

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to every footprint that we take on this planet.

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And as you walk across landscapes, you're breaking

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wood. It makes new nutrition available. So the

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competition of fungi to find that new nutrition

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is fierce. And so first to the menu wins. So

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this is something that we are now understanding

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how essential they are for preserving biodiversity.

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for the health of the ecosystems as well as our

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own personal health. So when you say you think

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they're sentient, to what degree? I mean, and

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you're not talking about just like psilocybin

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or Amanita muscaria. We're kind of intellectually

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provincial in that we are using language and

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we've entered terms in order to describe concepts

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that we're struggling with. So let me describe

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it this way. We separated from fungi 650 million

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years ago. Maybe you did, dude. I know some people

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that are probably still. Well, basically, we

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are descendants of fungi. Yeah. We share a more

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common ancestry with fungi than we do with any

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other kingdom. And fungi are closer to animals

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than they are to plants. Animals came from fungi.

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You and I are actually fungal bodies. I'm speaking

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to basically another fungal. body right now so

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joe rogan i mean whether you know it or not you

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you're basically a fungal mass and from a cellular

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point of view under the microscope human cells

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animal cells and fungal cells are very very similar

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we exhale carbon dioxide we inhale oxygen as

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do fungus as the fungus does we separated from

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fungi basically we chose the route to encapsulate

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our nutrients in a cellular sac a stomach digesting

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our nutrients within the fungal systems digest

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their nutrients They exhale oxygen, inhale carbon

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dioxide. And their network -like design allows

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them to respond to catastrophic. And what I mean

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by that is that the mycelial networks, they're

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so dense in the soil and they have. literally

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hundreds of billions of tips. And as these tips

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are growing out, they tend to be polynucleotide

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at the tips. And it allows them to upregulate

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new enzymes, acid sequences, et cetera. So if

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there's a new ecological challenge, a new food

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source, a new toxin or something, these fungal

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networks are so... have great plasticity and

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being able to code for new sequences from their

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DNA. So all you need is one of those hundreds

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of billions of tips to find a new enzyme to break

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down a toxin or a new food source. And what happens

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then is that information then is incorporated

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genetically into the mycelial network and the

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mycelium then surges because it has new food.

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And so when it surges and creates a new sector

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of mycelium, we now know there's evidence that

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the mycelial network then that it benefits from

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that. tip exploration and discovery. So these

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are like massively resilient, adaptive organisms

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that have a network -based design, not dissimilar

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from that of our neural networks, not dissimilar

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from the computer internet. And more and more

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that I explore this, the more I'm convinced that

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we will find network -based organisms throughout

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the cosmos. Probably fungal systems. And fungal

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systems ultimately give rise, in our case, animals.

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And it's more likely we'll find fungal -animal

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relationships all throughout the universe. Do

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you think that there's some unknown way that

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animals are connected in some sort of a similar

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way as well? That if animals came from fungus,

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and fungus has this incredible way of communicating

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with each other, do you think that there's something

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like that in the animal kingdom that we haven't

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discovered? Well, that stimulates my thought

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into talking about the microbiome. The mycelial

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landscapes networks, they don't live by themselves.

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They select a microbiome of bacteria and other

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organisms that rest upon the mantle. These fungal

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networks are the foundation of the food web.

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Well, similarly... We have a microbiome. And

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it's really interesting that many of the bacterial

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diseases that infect fungi also infect us. Our

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best antibiotics against bacteria come from fungi,

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penicillin being the obvious example. But we

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have found now during next -gen sequencing, and

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this has never been published before, that the

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mycelial mats growing in the very same wood chips,

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in our case, that have been fermented. we had

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a thousand -fold difference in the relative abundance

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of genera of bacteria from the very same wood

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chips, two different mushroom species planted

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on those wood chips, and the microbiomes that

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were created and selected for by the mycelium

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were vastly different. This really strongly supports

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the concept. This is a hypothesis with quickly

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becoming a theory. I'll explain the difference

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in a minute. But this really supports a concept

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that I've long believed and espoused, that these

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mycelial networks are not just happenstance.

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They're creating the habitats and the flora and

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ultimately the fauna that are resident within

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the ecosystem to guarantee the plurality and

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the biodiversity of the ecosystem by creating

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the plants that grow up, that feed the animals,

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the insects, to create the debris fields and

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then feed the mycelium for the benefit of the

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progeny. the mushrooms that will form thereafter.

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So these are deterministic organisms that are

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setting the stage for ecological evolution. And

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you think that they're doing this in a conscious

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manner? Well, see, again, we're a victim of our

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consciousness trying to define what is conscious

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and what is smart. And one of the best arguments

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I've had, my brother Bill is a super genius,

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is far smarter than myself. And he was editing

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one of my books, Mycelium Running, How Mushrooms

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Can Help Save the World. And he goes, Paul, you

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cannot say that mycelium is intelligent. And

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he said, you can't say nature is intelligent.

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I go, wait, Bill, I respect you. But you didn't

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realize the hypocrisy of the statement that you're

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giving me. You're telling me nature is not intelligent.

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And yet you are born of nature using the mind

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to conceive the concept to challenge the idea

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that nature is not intelligent when you are part

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of nature. I rest my case. Yeah, that's indefensible.

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Yeah, so we create language and words to describe

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concepts. So you feel like your brother was sort

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of hampered by these predetermined categories

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that we like to put things into. You have a word.

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You use that word. The word is very clearly defined

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in our ideas. Thank you. Thank you, yes. Language

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is code, and we haven't elaborated the code yet

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to elucidate the concepts that we're trying to

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articulate. Just because you can't prove it's

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true doesn't mean it hasn't happened. So as our

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vocabulary increases, as our lexicon of language

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increases, it becomes more robust, then I think

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we can better describe, test, and prove that

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these concepts are true. But we're biologically

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provincial when we think about how limited we

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are. We're truly Neanderthals with nuclear weapons.

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When you look at how important natural ecosystems

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are. try to replicate them. They're very, very

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difficult to replicate due to their complexity.

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So I think the more that we study nature, most

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all of us scientists subscribe to the adage that

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the more we study this subject, the more we realize

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we didn't know. And the hubris of us thinking

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that these things cannot occur, did not occur,

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will not occur, really speaks to our provincial

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attitude towards nature. The idea that these

00:13:52.090 --> 00:13:56.740
fungus, fungi, are... Creating their environment

00:13:56.740 --> 00:14:00.720
and almost they're the architects of this environment.

00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.519
They're establishing the landscape for all these

00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:06.259
different creatures and life forms to live is

00:14:06.259 --> 00:14:10.580
unbelievably fascinating. And also that they're

00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:12.740
connected, right? They're connected in some sort

00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:16.850
of almost like a neural network. What is that

00:14:16.850 --> 00:14:19.490
thing in the Pacific Northwest, the one fungus

00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:22.269
group that's essentially the largest living organism

00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:24.169
on the face of the earth? Yeah, the largest organism

00:14:24.169 --> 00:14:27.149
in the world so far discovered is a mycelial

00:14:27.149 --> 00:14:30.350
mat, 2 ,200 acres in size. And that's equivalent

00:14:30.350 --> 00:14:33.269
to about 665 football fields. And that's one

00:14:33.269 --> 00:14:36.509
animal. It's one mycelial mat. One mycelial mat

00:14:36.509 --> 00:14:40.629
is a honey mushroom that kills trees. It's an

00:14:40.629 --> 00:14:44.960
edible mushroom. But think of this. So for those

00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:47.440
listeners out there, if any soil biologists know

00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.899
this well, if you go out and get some nice, rich

00:14:49.899 --> 00:14:53.100
soil, a gram of it, and you analyze it, there

00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:56.379
typically is a million, five million microbes

00:14:56.379 --> 00:15:00.220
per gram in that soil. Now, the mycelium is growing

00:15:00.220 --> 00:15:02.820
out. If we have five or six skin layers that

00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.960
protect us from an infection, the mycelium only

00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.500
has one cell wall. On the other side of that

00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:09.419
cell wall are hundreds of millions of microbes

00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:11.340
per gram that are trying to consume it, many

00:15:11.340 --> 00:15:14.779
of which. The mycelium is able to upregulate.

00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:17.970
In constant biomolecular communication with this

00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.669
ecosystem, be able to prevent predators from

00:15:20.669 --> 00:15:23.009
consuming it, thus allowing it to achieve the

00:15:23.009 --> 00:15:25.490
largest mass of any organism in the world. This

00:15:25.490 --> 00:15:28.129
is amazing to me because it means that it is

00:15:28.129 --> 00:15:31.629
constantly in communication with the ecosystem

00:15:31.629 --> 00:15:37.250
being challenged, accepting alliances. So guilds

00:15:37.250 --> 00:15:40.230
of microbiomes are being created, selected by

00:15:40.230 --> 00:15:47.419
the mycelium. pathogens, parasites, even competing

00:15:47.419 --> 00:15:49.899
guilds from coming into that landscape. So the

00:15:49.899 --> 00:15:52.820
dominance of these fungi are to ensure the ecosystems

00:15:52.820 --> 00:15:55.179
that give lives to their progeny. The rule of

00:15:55.179 --> 00:15:57.960
natural selection in life is reproduction. So

00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.659
everything steers towards reproduction. So from

00:16:00.659 --> 00:16:02.500
an evolutionary biology point of view, what...

00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:06.440
will that organism do to help survive so it can

00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.519
reproduce? And reproduction through creating

00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.279
guilds of communities, the microbiome using the

00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.539
mycelial network as the structural foundation

00:16:14.539 --> 00:16:16.879
of the food web seems to be the name of the game

00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.759
here. So this honey mushroom, is that what it's

00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:21.720
called, that lives in the Pacific Northwest,

00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:24.659
how is it killing these trees? It's a root parasite.

00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:28.259
So it comes in and kills the trees. And I spend

00:16:28.259 --> 00:16:30.340
a lot of time in the old growth forest and a

00:16:30.340 --> 00:16:32.480
lot of hiking. I've always been wondering about

00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.240
meadows in the subalpine regions. There's all

00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.399
these subalpine forests. And then you come out

00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.340
and there's these giant meadows. I suspect that

00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:45.360
this honey mushroom is a meadow maker. It climaxes

00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.750
these trees. It kills them. They then... and

00:16:49.750 --> 00:16:52.269
then they grow saprophytically, but then it clears

00:16:52.269 --> 00:16:54.570
the canopy so the grasslands can grow. Saprophytically?

00:16:54.730 --> 00:16:56.450
What is that? Saprophytic means it's growing

00:16:56.450 --> 00:16:59.049
on dead material. So first is a parasite. You

00:16:59.049 --> 00:17:00.690
mean the mushrooms. The mushrooms. First is a

00:17:00.690 --> 00:17:04.309
parasite, kills a tree, then it's a saprophite

00:17:04.309 --> 00:17:06.750
or saprobe. There's another word for it. It's

00:17:06.750 --> 00:17:10.230
a decomposer. It breaks down that material. But

00:17:10.230 --> 00:17:13.730
as it decomposes the wood, 30 % of wood becomes

00:17:13.730 --> 00:17:17.740
water. So the mycelium generates water. And so

00:17:17.740 --> 00:17:20.400
water lenses are being created. Now you have

00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.200
more sunlight, grasses, and flourish. And so

00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.720
I suspect that these mushrooms are actually meadow

00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:29.000
makers, allowing then the elk and the deer and

00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:32.259
marmots and whatnot to exist in those grassland

00:17:32.259 --> 00:17:34.140
environments as a way of rebuilding the nitrogen

00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:40.180
source in the soil. So I think... These are over

00:17:40.180 --> 00:17:43.119
great, huge timescales. We have to get away from

00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:45.759
the concept of our lifespan or even 100, 200

00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:47.779
years. We need to think in millennial terms,

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:51.180
you know, over many, many millennia. This is

00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:54.380
unbelievably fascinating. The idea that they're

00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:57.940
sort of the architects of their ecosystem. They're

00:17:57.940 --> 00:18:00.720
the architects of our existence. This is something

00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.059
that... And there's some really fantastic research

00:18:04.059 --> 00:18:07.019
that's come out in the past two years. I'm a

00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:10.099
science ambassador for the AAAS, the American

00:18:10.099 --> 00:18:13.000
Association of Advanced Science. So I am a little

00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:14.920
bit out there, but I'm really happy that I have

00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:17.180
so much scientific support these days. A lot

00:18:17.180 --> 00:18:18.599
of things I've been talking about for 20 years

00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.579
are now well -rooted and been proven. One of

00:18:21.579 --> 00:18:24.099
the things that has been so fascinating to me,

00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:27.940
and I'm still wrapping my mind around this. You

00:18:27.940 --> 00:18:31.339
know, the universe was created about 13 .8 billion

00:18:31.339 --> 00:18:34.480
years ago from the Big Bang. The Earth coalesced

00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.980
out of stardust about 4 .5 billion. The earliest

00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:41.440
records of life we have is about 3 .8 billion

00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:46.539
years ago, single -celled organisms. But just

00:18:46.539 --> 00:18:50.579
recently in lava beds in South Africa, they found

00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:55.039
mycelium infused through the lava 2 .4 billion

00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:59.500
years ago. Now, we split from fungi 650 million

00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:02.279
years ago. And then in Brazil this past year,

00:19:02.380 --> 00:19:05.440
they found a fully intact, apparently a fossilized

00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.119
mushroom published in Nature, which is a very

00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:11.420
reputable scientific journal. And that one is

00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:16.619
1 .4 billion years old. So the oldest multicellular

00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:20.509
organism in the fossil record today. is this

00:19:20.509 --> 00:19:23.410
fungus and lava in South Africa 2 .4 billion

00:19:23.410 --> 00:19:26.529
years ago. A fully formed mushroom who had its

00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:32.430
form was growing 1 .4 billion years ago. We separated

00:19:32.430 --> 00:19:35.710
from fungi 650 million years ago. Mushrooms have

00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:38.390
had their form longer than we've had our form

00:19:38.390 --> 00:19:40.329
by more than a billion years. Here, Jamie just

00:19:40.329 --> 00:19:42.049
pulled it up on the screen here so we could take

00:19:42.049 --> 00:19:44.109
a look at it. This is the one from Brazil. So

00:19:44.109 --> 00:19:48.509
this is the... Paul, is this the image that you're

00:19:48.509 --> 00:19:51.650
familiar with? Yeah, this is the one that has

00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:53.869
just been published in the past. They have a

00:19:53.869 --> 00:19:56.009
great name that's a tongue twister to pronounce.

00:19:56.289 --> 00:19:59.990
It's Gondwana agaricides magnificus. Why do they

00:19:59.990 --> 00:20:02.130
do that? Do they do that to make people like

00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:04.329
me feel stupid? They don't have to. No, they

00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:06.109
do that because graduate students want to publish

00:20:06.109 --> 00:20:08.369
papers instead of inventing names. And so it

00:20:08.369 --> 00:20:11.339
looks better if you have a long... latin sounding

00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:13.400
name so but think of that mushrooms had their

00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:16.000
form before we had ours yeah these are elders

00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.559
these are these are ancient organisms these are

00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:22.180
the really the the overlord underlords of our

00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:25.640
ecosystem and i suspect and as these neural networks

00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:27.599
they have more neural connections in the mycelial

00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:29.599
mass they're over a thousand acres and we have

00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.859
in our brain they are actually accumulating knowledge

00:20:32.859 --> 00:20:35.740
genetic intelligence but i think that as time

00:20:35.740 --> 00:20:38.279
goes on i hope that we will be able to interface

00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:42.019
with them because i think that There is many

00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:45.799
benefits of us communicating with mycelium that

00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:50.880
can give us rapid responses to catastrophe. That's

00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.480
how they've evolved. And we're now the biggest

00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.059
walking catastrophe that I know, walking across

00:20:56.059 --> 00:20:58.539
the planet. And we need to engage these fungal

00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:01.359
allies for the benefits that we need to put into

00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:04.039
play in order to prevent the loss of biodiversity.

00:21:04.420 --> 00:21:07.319
It seems like a communication gap would be very

00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.130
hard to bridge. The communication gap, I mean,

00:21:10.130 --> 00:21:13.529
if we really did find a way to communicate in

00:21:13.529 --> 00:21:16.930
some form with mushrooms, like the concept of

00:21:16.930 --> 00:21:18.670
language, like you were talking about just the

00:21:18.670 --> 00:21:21.569
idea of nature and intelligence and these words

00:21:21.569 --> 00:21:25.410
that we have, that we have these sort of concrete

00:21:25.410 --> 00:21:27.289
definitions in our head that don't really apply

00:21:27.289 --> 00:21:30.789
to some things that are very confusing to us,

00:21:30.829 --> 00:21:33.750
like the idea of fungal intelligence, the idea

00:21:33.750 --> 00:21:36.809
that you could somehow or another... understand

00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:39.970
the language that these things... We don't even

00:21:39.970 --> 00:21:43.140
understand dolphin language, right? Well, one

00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:47.579
classic example, Japanese are so clever at this.

00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.720
There's a slime mold, you know, called Physarium

00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:56.200
Polycephalum. And they had a, and this slime

00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:58.140
mold is very, very good at navigating through

00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:00.660
mazes and challenges. I mean, first the food

00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:03.660
wins, the conservation of energy, you know, is

00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:05.960
rewarded. So how do they set this up? They put

00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.460
a little bit of it. They did several experiments.

00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:13.660
The fun, most fun one. is they designed a nutrient,

00:22:14.019 --> 00:22:19.799
basically a nutrient -like maze replicating Tokyo

00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:24.819
in the Japanese subway system. And so they started

00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:27.859
with Tokyo and they put oats, which is a nutritional

00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:31.180
source. They inoculated what is on this basically

00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:34.420
kind of agri -map with all the major cities,

00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:39.920
the nodes around Tokyo. Then each of those nodes

00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.279
had a piece of oat on them, which is a source

00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:46.640
of nutrition. The main oat was where Tokyo was.

00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.779
They inoculated it. And then they let the slime

00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:53.369
mold then. grow and first it grew out randomly

00:22:53.369 --> 00:22:56.190
exploratorily you know just like you would do

00:22:56.190 --> 00:22:58.069
if you're a hunter or something you're hunting

00:22:58.069 --> 00:23:00.589
on the landscape looking for things and then

00:23:00.589 --> 00:23:05.789
after about 28 hours it reorganized itself in

00:23:05.789 --> 00:23:09.750
the most efficient way possible and reorganized

00:23:09.750 --> 00:23:11.970
the japanese subway system in a more efficient

00:23:11.970 --> 00:23:16.039
manner than it's designed today Thus, they said,

00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:18.960
not me, not Paul Stamets, this is a demonstration

00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.099
of cellular intelligence. Whoa. So this is the

00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:24.880
tip of the proverbial mycelial iceberg. This

00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.539
has broad implications. And I just want people

00:23:29.539 --> 00:23:32.759
to suspend their disbelief. And this goes into

00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:35.640
actually the evolution of human consciousness.

00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:38.299
And Terence McKenna was a good friend of mine.

00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:41.599
I love Terrence. I especially love the last five

00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:43.319
years of his life because he made fun of himself

00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:46.839
so much. Terrence, people took Terrence way too

00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.440
seriously in many levels. But as his brother,

00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:51.799
Dennis. Which I think has been on your show.

00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:55.099
A couple times. Dennis is a great ally, great

00:23:55.099 --> 00:23:58.299
scientist. But Dennis said even if 10 % of what

00:23:58.299 --> 00:24:01.099
Terrence said was true, it's freaking amazing.

00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:04.960
And Terrence and Dennis both came up with a stoned

00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.599
theory. Now, it's not a theory. It's a hypothesis.

00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:11.539
A hypothesis is speculative but cannot necessarily

00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:15.299
be not yet proven. A theory is a hypothesis that

00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:17.960
has been tested and proven with facts. So I disagree

00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:19.579
with them in saying it's not a theory, it's a

00:24:19.579 --> 00:24:22.410
hypothesis. But the hypothesis of the stoned

00:24:22.410 --> 00:24:26.289
ape, which I think you've alluded to before,

00:24:26.549 --> 00:24:29.410
is that with climate change and as the savannas

00:24:29.410 --> 00:24:31.990
increase and our primate ancestors came out of

00:24:31.990 --> 00:24:35.150
the forest canopies, they're tracking across

00:24:35.150 --> 00:24:37.390
the savanna. And if you're a hunter, what do

00:24:37.390 --> 00:24:39.349
you look? You look for footsteps and you look

00:24:39.349 --> 00:24:44.529
for scat. And the most significant fleshy mushroom

00:24:44.529 --> 00:24:48.559
going out of poop. In Africa, hippopotamus, elephant,

00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:53.680
deer, antelope, et cetera, is psilocybe cuvensus.

00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.099
It's a very large mushroom. You're hungry. You're

00:24:57.099 --> 00:25:01.420
with your clan. You consume it. And then 20 minutes

00:25:01.420 --> 00:25:05.019
later, you're. are catapulted in this extraordinary

00:25:05.019 --> 00:25:08.259
experience. Psilocybin substitutes as serotonin,

00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.680
becomes a better neurotransmitter, activates

00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:14.259
neurogenesis. It causes new neurons to form,

00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:17.279
new pathways of knowledge. So that's the stone

00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.900
-date hypothesis, and it speaks to a mystery

00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:25.460
that the human brain, basically the brain cavity

00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:28.220
doubled in size in about 2 million years. Some

00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:31.740
people say it's less than 200 ,000. Less than

00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:35.160
200 ,000. Homo sapiens arrived 200 ,000 to 300

00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:37.359
,000 years ago. That's a big gap, right? It's

00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:39.420
a big gap. Well, science is like that. So to

00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:42.480
be scientifically accurate here, I need to show

00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.859
the extreme margins of what's been estimated.

00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:50.640
So if we accept 2 million years, and it's been

00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.259
shown in the fossil record this is true, the

00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:54.940
oldest Homo sapiens fossils are 300 ,000 years

00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:59.990
old now. We have a suddenly doubling of the human

00:25:59.990 --> 00:26:04.269
brain. And with that, our language centers increased

00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:09.130
our ability to prognosticate, to plan. And there's

00:26:09.130 --> 00:26:14.450
no explanation for this currently. And even though

00:26:14.450 --> 00:26:17.289
we may not be able to prove it, I ask people

00:26:17.289 --> 00:26:20.190
to suspend their disbelief for a second. Now,

00:26:20.210 --> 00:26:23.690
think of this. Our primate ancestors are going

00:26:23.690 --> 00:26:26.380
across the savanna. They ingest these mushrooms

00:26:26.380 --> 00:26:30.660
as a clan. Massive input for anyone who's eaten

00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:33.140
these mushrooms. Huge amounts of data is coming

00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:36.400
in. Fractal patterns, geometrical landscapes

00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:42.180
occur. You have empathy. You have greater courage.

00:26:42.259 --> 00:26:44.799
You're fighting a saber -toothed tiger. You know,

00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:48.259
one day you have a fear of it. We know now from

00:26:48.259 --> 00:26:50.539
neurogenesis and the extension of the fear response

00:26:50.539 --> 00:26:53.519
that has been clinically proven, psilocybin allows

00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.759
you to reset and have different neurological

00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:59.740
pathways to respond to fear, overcoming the fear

00:26:59.740 --> 00:27:02.299
of conditioned response, potentially PTSD, and

00:27:02.299 --> 00:27:03.819
there's a lot of research on this currently.

00:27:04.490 --> 00:27:07.089
But this wouldn't happen one time with one hominid

00:27:07.089 --> 00:27:09.369
group. It wouldn't happen two times, ten times.

00:27:09.630 --> 00:27:13.170
It would happen millions and millions and millions

00:27:13.170 --> 00:27:16.630
and millions of times over millions and millions

00:27:16.630 --> 00:27:19.750
of years. This leads to what I think should be

00:27:19.750 --> 00:27:22.730
called epigenetic neurogenesis. We know that

00:27:22.730 --> 00:27:24.789
there's a regeneration of neurons. We know that

00:27:24.789 --> 00:27:27.750
psilocybin substitutes the serotonin. It opens

00:27:27.750 --> 00:27:29.430
the floodgates of the senses. You have a lot

00:27:29.430 --> 00:27:32.190
more data coming in. And we know that you have

00:27:32.190 --> 00:27:34.480
the extinction of the fear response. So if you're

00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:36.960
the leader of your clan, you've had this traumatic

00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:41.579
event, either war or cataclysm from earthquakes,

00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:44.099
whatever the case may be, or encounter a saber

00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:46.460
-toothed tiger, whatever. If you're the leader

00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:49.380
of that clan and you can overcome your fear response,

00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:54.039
you have courage and you have empathy. Those

00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:57.119
are leadership skills. I think people should

00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:59.980
take note of it. People like to follow leaders

00:27:59.980 --> 00:28:03.470
who are courageous and yet kind. who they can

00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:05.549
trust, they'll have their best interests in mind.

00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:08.750
So I think this propelled, I think it's a lot,

00:28:08.829 --> 00:28:11.329
it's a very good explanation. It's an unprovable

00:28:11.329 --> 00:28:15.849
hypothesis. But now we're at a junction and we're

00:28:15.849 --> 00:28:17.809
ready for the next quantum leap in human consciousness.

00:28:18.329 --> 00:28:20.430
I think psilocybin should be looked upon as a

00:28:20.430 --> 00:28:23.470
nootropic vitamin. And there's a huge amount

00:28:23.470 --> 00:28:25.730
of interest in this. Johns Hopkins University,

00:28:26.029 --> 00:28:28.089
as you probably well know, New York University,

00:28:28.329 --> 00:28:31.670
UCLA, elsewhere in Europe. There's major clinical

00:28:31.670 --> 00:28:33.349
studies that have been conducted in the past

00:28:33.349 --> 00:28:36.269
two years showing exactly what I'm saying about

00:28:36.269 --> 00:28:39.750
overcoming fear response, neurogenesis, overcoming

00:28:39.750 --> 00:28:45.269
PTSD. This is now medically quite seriously considered

00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:48.069
and something that I think that we should explore

00:28:48.069 --> 00:28:50.630
under controlled settings. I'm not into partying

00:28:50.630 --> 00:28:55.150
with psilocybin mushrooms. Damn! You're going

00:28:55.150 --> 00:29:00.349
so good. I can understand the urge. Ari Shaffir

00:29:00.349 --> 00:29:02.410
is going to be here in an hour and a half, and

00:29:02.410 --> 00:29:04.569
he's the creator of Shroomfest. He's going to

00:29:04.569 --> 00:29:06.349
be very upset with your idea that you shouldn't

00:29:06.349 --> 00:29:08.609
party with it. Well, I think there's greater

00:29:08.609 --> 00:29:13.190
benefit to yourself and humanity. I think these

00:29:13.190 --> 00:29:17.009
are serious tools. California has it. I'm sure

00:29:17.009 --> 00:29:19.869
you're probably aware. It's up for legalization.

00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.980
Yeah, I was really quite surprised by that. Yeah.

00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:27.839
All my work, and to put some caveats here, all

00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.920
my work was covered by a Drug Enforcement Administration

00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:32.559
license. I've published now four new species

00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:35.000
in the genus psilocybe, including the most potent

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:36.779
psilocybin mushroom in the world called psilocybe

00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:39.799
azurescens. And to be clear, folks, nature provides,

00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:42.759
I don't. Right, of course. When I had my DEA

00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.980
license, I mean, everyone I suspected was a DEA

00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:47.299
agent who came to me and wanted to get some psilocybin.

00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.039
I'm sure you probably got set up a bunch of times.

00:29:50.859 --> 00:29:54.720
Numerous times. Did you matrix at all? To a point,

00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:57.259
it was pretty funny. I had this one person who

00:29:57.259 --> 00:29:59.359
offered me just huge amounts of money, and I

00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.299
played with him. And I said, no, it's not enough.

00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:02.880
And he offered me more and more money, pretty

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.940
soon about $200 ,000, $300 ,000. And he was writing

00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:10.240
all these coded letters. It was obviously a DEA

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.799
agent trying to set me up. And finally he got

00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:14.180
really frustrated because I was playing with

00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:15.859
a guy. I said, you know, I'm tired of being set

00:30:15.859 --> 00:30:17.220
up like this. I'm just going to play with a sucker,

00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:21.720
you know. And so it finally came to a point and

00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.039
he got really, really frustrated. He's going

00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:24.799
to get mad at me. He goes, well, how much money?

00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:27.359
I go, there's not enough money on this planet

00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.180
for me to ever give you a psilocybin mushroom.

00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:35.759
So give it up. But even if you say that's not

00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:38.440
enough money, could that be taken as a negotiation?

00:30:39.230 --> 00:30:40.829
Well, not enough money on the planet, I suppose.

00:30:41.009 --> 00:30:43.130
No, but you got to not enough money on the planet.

00:30:43.289 --> 00:30:46.069
Before not enough money, it was not enough money.

00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:49.369
Right, before that. So I would think that if

00:30:49.369 --> 00:30:54.029
you had a really loosely interpreting judge.

00:30:55.370 --> 00:30:57.069
Oh, I suppose so, but I never committed a criminal

00:30:57.069 --> 00:31:00.650
act. Right. But isn't it sort of like a conspiracy?

00:31:01.869 --> 00:31:04.529
I'm not a lawyer. I mean, you have to keep things

00:31:04.529 --> 00:31:07.789
in context. I wouldn't play. Maybe you're more

00:31:07.789 --> 00:31:09.309
of a courageous person when it comes to that

00:31:09.309 --> 00:31:11.670
stuff than me. Well, at some point, I just got,

00:31:11.730 --> 00:31:14.450
frankly, pissed off. I'm sure. Enough of playing

00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:15.690
with me. It's a waste of your time. I'm going

00:31:15.690 --> 00:31:17.130
to play with you, and I'm going to reverse the

00:31:17.130 --> 00:31:19.529
table. But in any event, this is serious research.

00:31:19.829 --> 00:31:22.789
Yes. And it's something that, unfortunately—

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.559
Because it can be marginalized by the party atmosphere

00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.619
and used as a party drug. There's a really amazing

00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:32.140
study that just came out about five days ago.

00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:41.740
It's a big data study. 440 ,000 people, prisoners,

00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:45.220
were surveyed over 10 years in the Department

00:31:45.220 --> 00:31:48.720
of Human Health Services data bank. And they

00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:52.619
found an amazing correlation. If you had in this

00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:56.220
patient, in this prisoners, one experience with

00:31:56.220 --> 00:32:00.700
psilocybin in your life, one experience, it reduced

00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:03.599
in that population compared to the people who

00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:07.460
did not take psilocybin mushrooms, an 18 % reduction

00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:13.039
in burglary and larceny and up to a 27 % reduction

00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:17.660
in other crimes, including violent crimes. Actually,

00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:19.440
I got my numbers reversed. There's 27 percent

00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:22.579
reduction in burglary, 18 percent reduction in

00:32:22.579 --> 00:32:24.980
violent crime. Now, think of the damage, not

00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:27.559
only to the victims and the victims' families,

00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.319
the court system, the lawyers, the collateral

00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:33.400
damage, people being upset because they're being

00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:35.839
criminalized in prison for something, you know,

00:32:35.859 --> 00:32:37.740
for merely possessing soul side mushrooms or

00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:40.500
something like that. But think of the. Return

00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:43.200
on investment. A four - to six -hour experience

00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:47.779
creates a lifetime benefit to society, reducing

00:32:47.779 --> 00:32:54.200
criminal activity by 18 % to 27%. This is phenomenal.

00:32:54.579 --> 00:32:57.440
This is something that can help the health of

00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:02.880
our human psyche, of our social system, of reducing

00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:11.569
trauma throughout our entire society. seasoned

00:33:11.569 --> 00:33:15.009
and intellectual fashion than we have before.

00:33:15.410 --> 00:33:17.210
More rational and not weighed down by the ideas

00:33:17.210 --> 00:33:21.670
of mushrooms being a silly thing. I mean, I have

00:33:21.670 --> 00:33:24.170
a few pet peeves and I understand why people

00:33:24.170 --> 00:33:26.730
want to use it. But the word shroom just drives

00:33:26.730 --> 00:33:31.009
me crazy. Shroom fest. And the shroom fest. With

00:33:31.009 --> 00:33:34.309
all due respect, I understand. But, you know,

00:33:34.369 --> 00:33:36.230
let's not be children about this. Let's be adults.

00:33:36.630 --> 00:33:40.690
You're a serious person. I get it. I'm also a

00:33:40.690 --> 00:33:43.029
non -serious person on many levels. But I know

00:33:43.029 --> 00:33:45.150
when it comes to something that is so powerful,

00:33:45.309 --> 00:33:48.269
that is so important, let's not jeopardize its

00:33:48.269 --> 00:33:51.140
use. medically and for the benefit of society

00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:53.740
in the future by appealing to the lowest common

00:33:53.740 --> 00:33:56.380
denominator. Let's be adults in the room on this.

00:33:56.500 --> 00:33:58.920
I agree with you to a certain extent, but I also

00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:01.430
think that... It's got to be incredibly frustrating

00:34:01.430 --> 00:34:03.450
for a guy like you that has the kind of information

00:34:03.450 --> 00:34:06.009
that you have bouncing around your head in relationship

00:34:06.009 --> 00:34:08.829
to the way the rest of the world views it. See,

00:34:08.869 --> 00:34:11.250
to a person like myself, who I don't know nearly

00:34:11.250 --> 00:34:13.250
as much as you know, but I know quite a bit more

00:34:13.250 --> 00:34:15.429
than the average person when it comes to psilocybin

00:34:15.429 --> 00:34:18.409
and mushrooms or Amanita muscaria or Terence

00:34:18.409 --> 00:34:21.110
McKenna's ideas, the shroom fest doesn't bother

00:34:21.110 --> 00:34:23.989
me. But for a serious researcher like yourself,

00:34:24.190 --> 00:34:26.250
it's got to be like, ah, you're a part of the

00:34:26.250 --> 00:34:29.000
problem. Right. Well, it's making it silly. It's

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.579
a Timothy Leary problem. Right. Right. It held

00:34:31.579 --> 00:34:33.880
back their bona fide research in this subject

00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:35.880
for years. There's a movement right now. Explain

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:37.619
that, please. It is. There's a movement right

00:34:37.619 --> 00:34:39.920
now to move psilocybin from Schedule 1 to Schedule

00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:42.400
2. Schedule 1 means an illegal drug that has

00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:44.920
no medical benefits. Schedule 2 means it's a

00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:47.219
drug that has medical benefits. Right. So there's

00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:50.820
a serious movement going on right now within

00:34:50.820 --> 00:34:54.960
the FDA to have it be recategorized because in

00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:58.699
the words of FDA, Researchers I know, one arm's

00:34:58.699 --> 00:35:01.400
length removed, is that they've never seen anything

00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:03.800
with such a strong safety profile that gives

00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:07.619
so much benefit at so little cost for such a

00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:12.239
long time. This is a drug in a category of its

00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:17.840
own. This is really important. So let's not jeopardize

00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:19.739
it. It is really important, but you're never

00:35:19.739 --> 00:35:22.090
going to stop kids from calling it shrooms. You

00:35:22.090 --> 00:35:24.610
know, and I want to give a pass here. I want

00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:26.750
to give a pass. And the coming of age, you know,

00:35:26.789 --> 00:35:29.929
when I was 16 to, you know, the age, you know,

00:35:29.929 --> 00:35:33.170
22, 24, it's the coming of age ceremony. Now,

00:35:33.190 --> 00:35:35.369
I'm going to tell you something that's very deeply

00:35:35.369 --> 00:35:39.050
personal and it's very significant in my life.

00:35:40.090 --> 00:35:43.650
I had a congenital stuttering habit. I could

00:35:43.650 --> 00:35:46.769
not speak. I could not look at Joe Rogan in the

00:35:46.769 --> 00:35:50.750
eye right now without. You know, I had like the

00:35:50.750 --> 00:35:53.369
King speech. You've seen the movie. Exactly like

00:35:53.369 --> 00:35:56.730
that, but worse in my case. I went through six

00:35:56.730 --> 00:36:00.409
years of speech therapy. I was interviewed for

00:36:00.409 --> 00:36:02.710
special education. I grew up in a small town

00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:06.489
called Columbiana, Ohio. And I could not speak.

00:36:06.550 --> 00:36:08.730
Now, the type of stuttering habit that I have

00:36:08.730 --> 00:36:12.570
and had, I don't stutter to animals. I had pet

00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:14.210
snapping turtles, and I would talk to them all

00:36:14.210 --> 00:36:17.329
the time. And I don't stutter when I sing. But

00:36:17.329 --> 00:36:20.960
I could not elocute. without stuttering constantly.

00:36:21.179 --> 00:36:23.800
And please, people out there, don't finish a

00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:27.159
stutterer sentence. The type of stutterer category

00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:31.070
that I... have been in is that we would try to

00:36:31.070 --> 00:36:34.030
trick our brain with a prepositional or adverbial

00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:36.630
phrase halfway through the sentence that we're

00:36:36.630 --> 00:36:38.690
stuck on because we're thinking three or four

00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:40.110
sentences ahead, and the only way you can do

00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:42.170
is trick the brain. So I had to come up with

00:36:42.170 --> 00:36:44.869
a new neurological pathway to trick my brain

00:36:44.869 --> 00:36:47.349
so I could get out of my stuttering rhythm that

00:36:47.349 --> 00:36:50.510
was just repetition I couldn't get out of. And

00:36:50.510 --> 00:36:53.570
then one day, before I'd ever had psilocybin

00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:57.170
mushrooms, I bought some, a bag of them, and

00:36:57.170 --> 00:37:00.639
I thought, I had no information. I just bought

00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:04.920
the bag for about $25. And I went out for a walk

00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:08.519
in the woods in Ohio. And there was this beautiful

00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.199
oak tree that I used to climb to the very top

00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:13.699
of the tallest hill. In Ohio, we don't have mountains.

00:37:13.739 --> 00:37:16.420
We have hills. And it was in the summertime.

00:37:16.579 --> 00:37:19.139
And so I thought setting is important. I knew

00:37:19.139 --> 00:37:22.590
that. So I went for a walk. And I ate. The bag,

00:37:22.710 --> 00:37:25.510
the whole bag when I was walking. How many ounces

00:37:25.510 --> 00:37:27.630
do you think? Well, it was about, I know it was

00:37:27.630 --> 00:37:29.849
about a half an ounce to an ounce. So, I mean,

00:37:29.929 --> 00:37:33.750
yeah. So, we're talking, this is the elevator

00:37:33.750 --> 00:37:36.530
ride beyond the 10th floor, you know. So, 8 to

00:37:36.530 --> 00:37:39.369
16 grams? It was probably on the order of about

00:37:39.369 --> 00:37:45.070
20 grams, you know. So, no. But I didn't know.

00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:48.489
No, I had no one to. So, but I knew, but I went

00:37:48.489 --> 00:37:50.889
to this, my destination was this tree. Right.

00:37:51.210 --> 00:37:53.809
So I walked and walked, and I came at the tree,

00:37:53.829 --> 00:37:56.530
and I was eating the mushrooms, and then I started

00:37:56.530 --> 00:37:58.030
feeling the effects. And so it was great because

00:37:58.030 --> 00:37:59.650
I was climbing the tree, and I was getting higher

00:37:59.650 --> 00:38:02.329
in the tree and higher in my brain. Whoa, that

00:38:02.329 --> 00:38:05.170
seems like a terrible thing to do. And I climbed

00:38:05.170 --> 00:38:06.989
to the top of the tree, and it was a beautiful

00:38:06.989 --> 00:38:09.929
landscape, but in the summertime, there was these

00:38:09.929 --> 00:38:12.210
boiling black clouds on the horizon. I go, oh,

00:38:12.250 --> 00:38:15.510
that's cool. And so this big summer storm was

00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:19.809
coming, and the clouds were... dark and boiling

00:38:19.809 --> 00:38:22.010
and and they're coming close and i could hear

00:38:22.010 --> 00:38:24.190
the thunder and you know and and then i'm going

00:38:24.190 --> 00:38:26.610
higher and higher and the winds pick up and the

00:38:26.610 --> 00:38:28.349
tree started moving and i started getting vertigo

00:38:28.349 --> 00:38:30.570
because i was like oh my god i'm getting so freaking

00:38:30.570 --> 00:38:32.949
high on these mushrooms and so i grabbed the

00:38:32.949 --> 00:38:34.949
tree and held on the tree and it became my axis

00:38:34.949 --> 00:38:38.650
mundi into the earth and then the lightning started

00:38:38.650 --> 00:38:40.250
coming closer and the lightning strikes started

00:38:40.250 --> 00:38:42.110
really close and the lightning would hit and

00:38:42.110 --> 00:38:46.639
i go I saw fractals for the first time. The atmosphere

00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:49.579
became liquid. I saw these liquid waves of these

00:38:49.579 --> 00:38:51.920
multidimensional geometrical patterns everywhere,

00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:54.420
and the sparks of lightning would just create

00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:57.559
this amazing crescendo of secondary, tertiary

00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:01.030
fractals. all around me. And I was like, oh my,

00:39:01.150 --> 00:39:03.010
it was amazing. I said, this is what I read about,

00:39:03.090 --> 00:39:06.409
you know? And so the storm came and lightning

00:39:06.409 --> 00:39:08.369
strikes were all around me and I was washed with

00:39:08.369 --> 00:39:11.510
rain and I was up there and I felt in touch with

00:39:11.510 --> 00:39:14.730
Gaia, the universe. My heart opened up. I felt

00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:17.590
one with all. I was like, oh my gosh, this is

00:39:17.590 --> 00:39:20.090
such a powerful spiritual experience. I had no

00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:23.110
idea. No matter what anyone has read, as you

00:39:23.110 --> 00:39:25.329
probably know, it cannot describe the experience.

00:39:25.989 --> 00:39:28.269
And then it dawned on me, wait a second, Stamets.

00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.059
You're on the tallest tree on the tallest hill

00:39:31.059 --> 00:39:32.980
for miles in the middle of a lightning storm.

00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:37.260
This is not the best place to be. And so I realized

00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:40.079
I could be killed up here. Suddenly I had a reality

00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:46.559
rush. Or you could turn into a god. Imagine a

00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:50.179
comic book high on 20 grams of mushrooms, hug

00:39:50.179 --> 00:39:52.280
at a tree, the lightning comes and hits you.

00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:56.380
Maybe you were the savior. Maybe you need to

00:39:56.380 --> 00:39:59.119
get back to that tree. Maybe you're the chosen

00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:04.800
one. So I was, you know, it was an incredibly

00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:07.179
spiritual and wonderful experience. But I also

00:40:07.179 --> 00:40:10.699
had the fear. And this comes with the hero's

00:40:10.699 --> 00:40:14.039
journey. You know, you always have the dark side.

00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:16.599
You always have not just the light side but this

00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:18.820
counterbalance of the dark side. And I realized,

00:40:18.940 --> 00:40:21.519
oh, my gosh, I could die up here. And I said,

00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:24.300
well, I don't die, Stamets. What are your issues?

00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:28.349
Get something out of this experience. I said,

00:40:28.349 --> 00:40:31.809
this stuttering habit is ridiculous. And I'm

00:40:31.809 --> 00:40:35.650
not stupid. And so I said to myself, stop stuttering

00:40:35.650 --> 00:40:39.050
now. Stop stuttering now. I said that dozens,

00:40:39.289 --> 00:40:42.530
hundreds of times over and over and over. And

00:40:42.530 --> 00:40:45.929
fortunately, the storms went past and held on

00:40:45.929 --> 00:40:48.849
to the tree. And soaking wet, I came out of the

00:40:48.849 --> 00:40:52.090
tree and walked back to where I was living. And

00:40:52.090 --> 00:40:55.420
then the next day. I got up, I didn't see anybody,

00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:59.179
and I was walking on this path, a sidewalk, and

00:40:59.179 --> 00:41:02.039
there's a lady that I really liked a lot. But

00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:04.860
she was always attracted to the super self -assured

00:41:04.860 --> 00:41:06.500
jocks and things like that. She was actually

00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:10.119
very kind and sweet, but I didn't want to stare

00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:13.539
at her in the eyes because I would stutter, and

00:41:13.539 --> 00:41:16.619
it's humiliating for us. So the more humiliating

00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:20.690
us stutterers feel, the more we stutter. And

00:41:20.690 --> 00:41:23.250
so it's a really slippery slope, and so I would

00:41:23.250 --> 00:41:27.130
avoid eye contact. And so for the first time,

00:41:27.150 --> 00:41:29.349
she walked towards me. She said, good morning,

00:41:29.409 --> 00:41:31.230
Paul. How are you? She was always so nice to

00:41:31.230 --> 00:41:33.369
me, and I was terrified because I would embarrass

00:41:33.369 --> 00:41:35.150
myself. And I looked at her straight in the eyes,

00:41:35.250 --> 00:41:38.010
and I said, I'm doing fine. How are you? And

00:41:38.010 --> 00:41:41.829
I stopped stuttering in one day. Whoa! And this

00:41:41.829 --> 00:41:43.949
speaks to now what has been medically proven

00:41:43.949 --> 00:41:46.889
is that we can reset the neurology of the human

00:41:46.889 --> 00:41:50.070
brain through neurogenesis. I believe that experience

00:41:50.070 --> 00:41:54.150
allowed me to map new neurological pathways that

00:41:54.150 --> 00:41:56.150
allows me to elocute in a way that I could not

00:41:56.150 --> 00:42:00.429
elocute before. Now, just to be truthful here,

00:42:00.570 --> 00:42:03.690
if I drink a lot of alcohol, I'm in a loud bar

00:42:03.690 --> 00:42:06.909
because that stutters. You're a martial artist.

00:42:06.949 --> 00:42:08.789
I've been a martial artist all my life. And we

00:42:08.789 --> 00:42:12.429
have peripheral. And so if someone comes through

00:42:12.429 --> 00:42:14.750
a door, you know, into the bar and I'm looking

00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:17.289
at you, I know that they've come through. So

00:42:17.289 --> 00:42:19.630
this hyper alertness that us martial artists

00:42:19.630 --> 00:42:22.789
have, you know, of knowing things in the circumference

00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:25.769
around us in the peripheral environment is distracting.

00:42:26.269 --> 00:42:29.150
So if I drink a lot and there's a loud, a lot

00:42:29.150 --> 00:42:30.949
of noise and a lot of people coming in and out

00:42:30.949 --> 00:42:35.349
of doors, I'm hypersensitive to intruders. And

00:42:35.349 --> 00:42:37.449
then that's what I'll start stuttering if a person

00:42:37.449 --> 00:42:39.170
is talking to me, asking me, how do you grow

00:42:39.170 --> 00:42:41.030
mushrooms? It's like filling a well with a teaspoon

00:42:41.030 --> 00:42:43.130
because I'm worried about the guy who just came

00:42:43.130 --> 00:42:44.769
through the door over there who looks like he

00:42:44.769 --> 00:42:47.070
may not be a safe person to be in this environment

00:42:47.070 --> 00:42:51.510
right now. So there's a time that I'll only give

00:42:51.510 --> 00:42:53.849
10 percent of my brain to communicating to the

00:42:53.849 --> 00:42:55.750
person in front of me. My 90 percent of my brain

00:42:55.750 --> 00:42:58.289
is hyper aware in the circumstantial environment

00:42:58.289 --> 00:43:00.570
around me. Time for another trip to the tree

00:43:00.570 --> 00:43:05.340
to cure that last 10 percent. But that's my personal

00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:07.179
story. That's amazing. It's not going to work

00:43:07.179 --> 00:43:10.199
for everyone. But it worked for you. That's what's

00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:12.000
important. It worked for me. And I was at Crater

00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.960
Lake Lodge and a waiter came up to me and he

00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.519
goes, he's about 17, 18 years of age, a busboy

00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.619
actually. And my wife and I, my wife looked at

00:43:23.619 --> 00:43:26.440
me and I looked at her and I said, should I?

00:43:27.099 --> 00:43:31.059
Yeah, go ahead. So I told this busboy the same

00:43:31.059 --> 00:43:32.900
story. Now this guy was. Totally straight, looked

00:43:32.900 --> 00:43:35.159
like he was a super conservative from a super

00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:37.159
conservative family. And we told him this whole

00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:39.099
story, and his eyes were wide open because when

00:43:39.099 --> 00:43:41.139
you meet other stutterers and you talk to them,

00:43:41.260 --> 00:43:44.019
they're really desperate for a solution. So I

00:43:44.019 --> 00:43:45.800
never knew what happened to this young busboy,

00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:48.079
but I think I changed his life forever. I hope

00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:50.280
you did. I had a good friend growing up, and

00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:53.039
his brother was severely stricken with it to

00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:55.019
the point where he would have to wince, close

00:43:55.019 --> 00:43:57.679
his eyes, and look down when he would talk to

00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:01.480
you. And he just couldn't get over it. It won't

00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:04.460
stutter to animals. It won't stutter when he

00:44:04.460 --> 00:44:08.320
sings. So what do you think it is? What is happening?

00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:11.500
Do you recall? Well, there's several things.

00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:13.380
It could be trauma when you're a child combined

00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:18.380
with neuropathy. I was told by one... A psychiatrist

00:44:18.380 --> 00:44:21.519
who is a specialist in this at a conference that

00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:24.659
there is a theory that in the seventh or eighth

00:44:24.659 --> 00:44:29.940
month in the womb, your neurons failed to make

00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:32.019
all the connections that it needed to. So that

00:44:32.019 --> 00:44:33.239
makes sense to me because that's why I would

00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:35.920
reroute with prepositional or adverbial phrases

00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:39.800
to try to jump around the little habitual loop

00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:42.519
that I'm in. But I think this speaks to increasing

00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:45.539
intelligence. And we all will suffer from some

00:44:45.539 --> 00:44:49.980
form of dementia. And neuropathy occurs. There

00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:52.460
is a really wonderful, safe, and legal mushroom

00:44:52.460 --> 00:44:56.139
to use that leads to neurogenesis, and that's

00:44:56.139 --> 00:45:00.159
called lion's mane. And lion's mane is a cascading

00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.460
white icicle, edible and choice mushroom they

00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:06.119
sell in the stores. What stores? Grocery stores.

00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:08.340
Really? All over, yeah. Lion's mane, they're

00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:11.059
called, they have various brand names. One that

00:45:11.059 --> 00:45:13.119
I love is called pom -pom blanc. It looks like

00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.710
pom -poms from cheerleaders. And lion's mane

00:45:15.710 --> 00:45:21.050
contains a unique group of compounds called aranacines

00:45:21.050 --> 00:45:24.969
and haricinones. And these regenerate myelin

00:45:24.969 --> 00:45:29.849
on the axons of nerves. And so this is a mushroom.

00:45:29.929 --> 00:45:32.809
Kawagishi discovered this in 1994, a Japanese

00:45:32.809 --> 00:45:35.389
researcher. And he postulated it as a potential

00:45:35.389 --> 00:45:40.250
preventative or treatment for Alzheimer's, muscular

00:45:40.250 --> 00:45:44.000
dystrophy, et cetera. Do you take it? I take

00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:45.760
it every day. Every day? Every day. Do you take

00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.219
it in raw form? I take it in capsules. Oh. So

00:45:49.219 --> 00:45:53.000
you buy it? Yeah. We have an extensive product

00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:56.119
line. You do? Yes. How do you get to that? HostDefense

00:45:56.119 --> 00:46:00.380
.com. HostDefense .com. Why HostDefense? That's

00:46:00.380 --> 00:46:03.440
part of your innate immunity response, supporting

00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:06.360
your immunity. But our main business is at Fungi

00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:09.179
.com. And I registered that in my name myself.

00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:12.619
I'm kind of proud of that. It cost me $25. 1994.

00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:17.119
Wow, you were on ahead of the ball. Winterize

00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:20.840
yourself. But lion's mane is a safe mushroom

00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:23.179
to consume. There are several clinical studies

00:46:23.179 --> 00:46:27.460
out on it treating mild cognitive dysfunction.

00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:31.000
But there's two mouse studies that I think are

00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:33.380
quite illustrative. And this is translational

00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:35.480
medicine. This translates from mice experiments

00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.579
to humans. We already know that it has aspects

00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:43.440
of neurogenesis. go into Alzheimer's, a state

00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.780
of Alzheimer's, which is a big complex. But one

00:46:45.780 --> 00:46:48.219
of the characteristics is the formation of amyloid

00:46:48.219 --> 00:46:51.400
plaques. Demyelination of the neurons, myelin

00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.599
transmits the neural signals. Demyelination occurs.

00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:58.519
Your outer sheath on the neurons is interrupted

00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:02.639
by amyloid plaques that then prevent neurotransmission.

00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:05.500
So the experiments with the mice, which I think

00:47:05.500 --> 00:47:10.710
are so interesting, was one experiment was The

00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:13.929
maze experiment where the mice were put into

00:47:13.929 --> 00:47:17.090
an arena and they went out a corridor and they

00:47:17.090 --> 00:47:19.269
went one way in the corridor, they'd find food.

00:47:19.309 --> 00:47:21.110
The other way, there's no food. Well, very quickly,

00:47:21.150 --> 00:47:23.409
the mice learned, you know, you go out the corridor,

00:47:23.610 --> 00:47:26.469
go to the left, you find food. They injected

00:47:26.469 --> 00:47:29.489
it then with a toxic polypeptide that induces

00:47:29.489 --> 00:47:32.969
amyloid plaque formation that is a neurotoxin.

00:47:33.349 --> 00:47:36.230
Very quickly, after two weeks or so, the mice

00:47:36.230 --> 00:47:40.010
developed neuropathy. They got confused. They

00:47:40.010 --> 00:47:42.289
couldn't remember which way to go. It randomized.

00:47:42.929 --> 00:47:45.730
Upon giving these mice again mushrooms for a

00:47:45.730 --> 00:47:50.769
few weeks, they nearly renormalized. Upon sacrificing

00:47:50.769 --> 00:47:52.900
the mice, In the first part of the experiment,

00:47:53.099 --> 00:47:55.420
they saw the amyloid plaques and the demyelination.

00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:57.920
The second part of the experiment, of course,

00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:01.940
another subset of mice, they found that the myelin

00:48:01.940 --> 00:48:05.320
regrew and the amyloid plaque had resolved. This

00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.760
is post -mortem. Well, yeah, it's 100 mice. You're

00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:13.119
basically cutting off a representative sample.

00:48:13.380 --> 00:48:15.360
You sacrifice them. You determine, yeah, that's

00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:17.380
representative of the population. Now, the remaining

00:48:17.380 --> 00:48:19.599
population is alive. They fed them the mushrooms.

00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:24.760
regained neurological function. Wow. The other

00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:27.519
experiment, which I find is even more fun, and

00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:31.280
this was done in Japan, they put like 100 mice

00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:35.199
in an arena and they put a toy in the middle

00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.960
of the cage. All the mice got excited. They came

00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:39.460
up and sniffed it and smelled it and they got

00:48:39.460 --> 00:48:43.000
really excited. And they sat there with... with

00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.480
counters to measure the number of points of contact,

00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:47.980
how many points of contact the mice have exploring

00:48:47.980 --> 00:48:49.940
a new toy. So they got a really good baseline,

00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.760
hundreds of data points. And they did the same

00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:55.300
thing. Then they introduced this cyclopeptide,

00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:58.360
this neurotoxin, and the mice then, after a while,

00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:01.630
were uninterested. didn't have imagination, no

00:49:01.630 --> 00:49:04.510
curiosity. They put in a new toy, they were disinterested.

00:49:04.849 --> 00:49:07.250
They did the same thing. Now, even their full

00:49:07.250 --> 00:49:09.329
-blown dementia -like symptoms gave them lion's

00:49:09.329 --> 00:49:12.090
mane mushrooms. And after a few weeks, when they

00:49:12.090 --> 00:49:14.449
put in a new toy, they came back to near normal

00:49:14.449 --> 00:49:16.409
levels. Upon sacrificing the mice, they found

00:49:16.409 --> 00:49:19.389
that the amyloid plaque had resolved and myelin

00:49:19.389 --> 00:49:21.750
had regenerated and neurogenesis had occurred.

00:49:21.969 --> 00:49:24.989
This is a smart mushroom. Now, the tragedy that

00:49:24.989 --> 00:49:28.550
we face, I believe, as a society is we have people

00:49:28.550 --> 00:49:32.139
like... yourself, people like me, we're all going

00:49:32.139 --> 00:49:34.760
to suffer through neuropathy. We have a lifetime

00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:37.159
of a body intellect of knowledge that we're going

00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:40.280
to start losing. So what is the loss to society

00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:43.940
of our elders forgetting, not remembering? So

00:49:43.940 --> 00:49:46.039
I think this is something that's really extraordinarily

00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:50.139
exciting. It's not patentable. The drug companies

00:49:50.139 --> 00:49:52.320
have no interest in this, but this is probably

00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:55.300
the number one thing that people can do, in my

00:49:55.300 --> 00:49:59.099
mind, to not only preserve cognitive function,

00:49:59.260 --> 00:50:04.079
but to expand it. Now, I personally would love

00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:06.679
to see it legal to stack them both together,

00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:10.679
stacking psilocybin with lion's mane. And I think

00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:12.460
that stacking thing and then combining it with

00:50:12.460 --> 00:50:16.840
vitamin D3. Now, if I suggest vitamin D3, niacin,

00:50:17.469 --> 00:50:19.329
Because those of you who've had a niacin flush,

00:50:19.590 --> 00:50:23.469
200 milligrams of niacin or more, you get red,

00:50:23.510 --> 00:50:26.769
you get itchy. And neuropathy typically is presented

00:50:26.769 --> 00:50:29.769
at the fingertips, at the end of your toes and

00:50:29.769 --> 00:50:32.070
your fingers and your peripheral nervous system.

00:50:32.170 --> 00:50:34.929
As you have neuropathy, the nerve endings begin

00:50:34.929 --> 00:50:38.429
to die backwards. So my idea here is because

00:50:38.429 --> 00:50:39.849
there are different receptors being activated.

00:50:40.590 --> 00:50:43.530
by psilocybin than with the aranasins from lion's

00:50:43.530 --> 00:50:46.630
mane. If you stack lion's mane with psilocybin

00:50:46.630 --> 00:50:50.500
mushrooms, with niacin. The advantage is, and

00:50:50.500 --> 00:50:52.659
this is hypothetical, but this is something I

00:50:52.659 --> 00:50:55.400
think is well worth testing, is that niacin can

00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:58.420
help drive the neurogenic benefits of psilocybin

00:50:58.420 --> 00:51:00.820
and aranacines to the end of the peripheral nervous

00:51:00.820 --> 00:51:03.900
system. So we actually are planning right now

00:51:03.900 --> 00:51:06.199
a clinical study in Oregon with lion's mane mushrooms.

00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.780
The physicians who've looked at the research,

00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:14.010
which is robust, are convinced that it's worthy,

00:51:14.170 --> 00:51:16.690
and they have their own funding. So we're going

00:51:16.690 --> 00:51:19.809
to do an N of 30 study is what we hope to do,

00:51:19.869 --> 00:51:22.050
30 patients, and we hope to begin that study

00:51:22.050 --> 00:51:24.670
in the next year. It would be phenomenal to see

00:51:24.670 --> 00:51:27.250
how that would affect people with CTE, people

00:51:27.250 --> 00:51:30.489
like football players, boxers, people with brain

00:51:30.489 --> 00:51:32.949
damage. Across the board. Yeah. Across the board.

00:51:33.110 --> 00:51:36.369
Yeah. The benefits, and this is something that

00:51:36.369 --> 00:51:40.579
when you're depressed, you're not creative. And

00:51:40.579 --> 00:51:42.920
your immune system is depressed as well. You're

00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:44.860
psychologically, emotionally depressed, and you're

00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:48.239
not as creative. When you are happy, you are

00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:50.960
creative, and your immune system is better. So

00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:53.559
this could be fundamental to disease mitigation

00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:58.699
across the board. There are so many different

00:51:58.699 --> 00:52:01.280
examples like this where mushrooms need to be

00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:03.260
advanced to the front stage of consideration

00:52:03.260 --> 00:52:07.400
by serious scientists. And give up your mycophobia

00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:10.940
or even what I call xylophobia, the irrational

00:52:10.940 --> 00:52:13.460
fear of psilocybin mushrooms, and look upon these

00:52:13.460 --> 00:52:18.480
with new eyes and drop your prejudices and just

00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.519
look at it as a serious scientific analysis.

00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:27.639
Wow. How is this received in the general scientific

00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:31.579
community? Is there skepticism? Well, I love

00:52:31.579 --> 00:52:34.380
my skeptics because unless they're prejudiced

00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:36.639
against you, and some people are, you can never

00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:39.000
convince them. But scientists, when they see

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:41.539
the data sets and they see there's a dozen or

00:52:41.539 --> 00:52:45.079
more publications with scientists without commercial

00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:47.239
interests who have done this independently, then

00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:50.679
it's being taken very seriously. So the whole

00:52:50.679 --> 00:52:53.710
medical community right now. You know, I speak

00:52:53.710 --> 00:52:56.389
at a number of medical conferences, TED Med,

00:52:56.630 --> 00:52:59.210
American Academy of Dermatology, I've been keynote

00:52:59.210 --> 00:53:04.590
speakers at many medical conferences. And it's

00:53:04.590 --> 00:53:07.050
great because I can take people who are totally

00:53:07.050 --> 00:53:11.210
skeptical and most of them walk out of that room

00:53:11.210 --> 00:53:15.110
convinced. And why shouldn't we think that fungi

00:53:15.110 --> 00:53:17.269
are sources of medicines? I mean, penicillin

00:53:17.269 --> 00:53:21.420
may have tipped World War II in our favor. So

00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:25.199
the Japanese and Germans did not have penicillin,

00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:27.280
even though Alexander Fleming discovered it in

00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:35.019
1928. In 1941, a lab tech researcher went to

00:53:35.019 --> 00:53:37.559
a market in Chicago, found a moldy cantaloupe.

00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:40.579
And Alexander Fleming's strain of penicillin

00:53:40.579 --> 00:53:42.679
was too weak. It couldn't be commercialized.

00:53:42.980 --> 00:53:46.400
This lady researcher who found this moldy cantaloupe

00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:49.000
found a penicillium strain that was 200 times

00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:54.340
more potent. And as a result of that, in war,

00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:59.780
most of the casualties died from infections.

00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:05.480
And so the British and the English and the Americans

00:54:05.480 --> 00:54:08.599
had penicillin. The Germans and the Japanese

00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:12.969
did not. And so there's a great NPR analysis

00:54:12.969 --> 00:54:15.869
on this, on the history of penicillin, and it

00:54:15.869 --> 00:54:19.789
is one of the major factors in helping tilt the

00:54:19.789 --> 00:54:22.389
balance in favor of the allied powers against

00:54:22.389 --> 00:54:25.050
the axis powders. So concerned were the researchers

00:54:25.050 --> 00:54:27.210
in England. They impregnated their clothes with

00:54:27.210 --> 00:54:30.469
spores of this mold strain. So if their lavatories

00:54:30.469 --> 00:54:33.730
were bombed or they were captured, if one of

00:54:33.730 --> 00:54:35.610
them escaped, they could regenerate the culture

00:54:35.610 --> 00:54:41.909
from their clothing. Whoa. Wow. And this speaks

00:54:41.909 --> 00:54:45.230
to panspermia. We're all carrying microbiomes

00:54:45.230 --> 00:54:48.050
of fungi. The fact that you and I are here together

00:54:48.050 --> 00:54:52.369
means that I have now inoculated you with my

00:54:52.369 --> 00:54:55.710
microbiome of selected fungi. So, Joe, you are

00:54:55.710 --> 00:54:58.909
now a vector. Whoa. Awesome. Congratulations.

00:54:59.150 --> 00:55:04.920
Now, the frustrating aspects of... What is the

00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:06.820
word that you use? Fungi -phobia? Is that what

00:55:06.820 --> 00:55:09.659
you used? Mycophobia. Mycophobia. The frustrating

00:55:09.659 --> 00:55:12.420
aspects are, first of all, prohibition, right?

00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:16.420
The sweeping psychedelic act of 1970 that made

00:55:16.420 --> 00:55:20.360
psilocybin mushrooms illegal, right? And then

00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:24.960
on top of it, the commercial pharmaceutical industry,

00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:28.369
which... doesn't want to have anything to do

00:55:28.369 --> 00:55:31.409
with anything that it can't patent, and has so

00:55:31.409 --> 00:55:33.929
many doctors and so many researchers in its pocket.

00:55:34.590 --> 00:55:36.590
So you have two issues there, right? You have

00:55:36.590 --> 00:55:39.329
one issue that people, which is obviously why

00:55:39.329 --> 00:55:41.349
you don't like the word shroom, people think

00:55:41.349 --> 00:55:44.210
of mushrooms as a party drug, of being silly,

00:55:44.670 --> 00:55:47.949
freaking out, doing something stupid, regrettable

00:55:47.949 --> 00:55:51.130
actions, and then afterwards going, wow, we got

00:55:51.130 --> 00:55:55.409
so crazy. Thinking of it as a frivolous... sort

00:55:55.409 --> 00:55:59.210
of thing that you would engage in. Whereas what

00:55:59.210 --> 00:56:02.750
you're trying to do is show the absolute hard

00:56:02.750 --> 00:56:06.250
science. Do you feel that this absolute hard

00:56:06.250 --> 00:56:11.090
science is, I mean, you must feel that it's unfairly

00:56:11.090 --> 00:56:15.409
inhibited and hindered? It has been, but there's

00:56:15.409 --> 00:56:22.739
been a tidal change. The pharmacology of the

00:56:22.739 --> 00:56:26.639
use of psilocybin and its utility as a therapeutic

00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:30.139
agent, there's a title change. I think now there's

00:56:30.139 --> 00:56:33.059
over 700 patients have gone through Johns Hopkins

00:56:33.059 --> 00:56:39.500
clinical trials for things like end -of -life

00:56:39.500 --> 00:56:44.780
depression, PTSD. There are studies out on treating

00:56:44.780 --> 00:56:50.670
alcoholics and drug addicts. And this is important

00:56:50.670 --> 00:56:53.489
to communicate to people. And John Hopkins' study

00:56:53.489 --> 00:56:55.449
in particular, Dr. Roland Griffiths, a great,

00:56:55.530 --> 00:56:58.550
great scientist who's been running and championing

00:56:58.550 --> 00:57:01.110
these studies, came up with a very interesting

00:57:01.110 --> 00:57:03.329
series of analyses. And some of the take -home

00:57:03.329 --> 00:57:07.730
points were only 70 % of the people described

00:57:07.730 --> 00:57:10.150
the psilocybin experience therapeutically under

00:57:10.150 --> 00:57:13.250
controlled settings at John Hopkins with a very

00:57:13.250 --> 00:57:14.849
high dose of psilocybin as being beneficial.

00:57:15.309 --> 00:57:18.710
Only 70%. 70%. 30 % of them saying, I didn't

00:57:18.710 --> 00:57:22.489
like that. But in a retrospective study, 14 months

00:57:22.489 --> 00:57:26.250
to two years later, the 70 % of the people who

00:57:26.250 --> 00:57:28.829
said it was a beneficial experience still described

00:57:28.829 --> 00:57:30.829
it as one of the most significant beneficial

00:57:30.829 --> 00:57:32.630
experiences and spiritual experiences of their

00:57:32.630 --> 00:57:35.070
lifetime. And interviewing their friends, their

00:57:35.070 --> 00:57:40.650
spouses, they saw a permanent residual effect

00:57:40.650 --> 00:57:42.989
from the benefits of the experience. They were

00:57:42.989 --> 00:57:45.929
nicer people. They're nice to get along. They're

00:57:45.929 --> 00:57:50.550
less prone to anger. They had many values that

00:57:50.550 --> 00:57:53.730
we would cherish as an improved community of

00:57:53.730 --> 00:57:56.449
individuals. The 30 % of the people who had a

00:57:56.449 --> 00:57:58.610
native experience, the negativity of the experience

00:57:58.610 --> 00:58:00.389
did not extend beyond the experience themselves.

00:58:00.949 --> 00:58:03.510
So they didn't have collateral damage where we

00:58:03.510 --> 00:58:05.929
had collateral benefit. So the positive people

00:58:05.929 --> 00:58:08.630
saw it as a positive experience and the memory

00:58:08.630 --> 00:58:11.849
of the experience. This is so cool. The memory

00:58:11.849 --> 00:58:16.699
of the experience. kept them optimistic, hopeful,

00:58:16.940 --> 00:58:19.960
and they felt benefits from just remembering

00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:21.960
the experience. The people who had the negative

00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:24.699
experience, they just... Wouldn't do that again.

00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:27.079
So these mushrooms are obviously not for everyone.

00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:29.539
But for the people who do benefit, they benefit

00:58:29.539 --> 00:58:31.880
substantially. Don't you feel that a lot of the

00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:33.480
people that have those negative experiences,

00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:36.380
at least from my understanding, a lot of it are

00:58:36.380 --> 00:58:39.400
people that have some serious issues that they're

00:58:39.400 --> 00:58:42.719
not dealing with and ego problems and the mushrooms

00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:45.659
expose that and they try to wrestle the mushroom?

00:58:46.699 --> 00:58:49.820
Absolutely. I think that's very well put. I think

00:58:49.820 --> 00:58:51.960
that's a big issue. Some people are afraid of

00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:56.659
their inner self. You can't paint the canvas

00:58:56.659 --> 00:59:00.260
black and white. We're a big spectrum of complex

00:59:00.260 --> 00:59:04.340
personality traits. And what happened to somebody

00:59:04.340 --> 00:59:06.480
when they're two years old, five years old, what

00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:08.840
trauma they experienced. You know, it's very

00:59:08.840 --> 00:59:11.400
complex to be able to make these statements.

00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:14.239
But I think as a group, there are some people

00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:19.559
who are on the edge and they may not control

00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:22.139
their innermost emotions and they're afraid of

00:59:22.139 --> 00:59:24.260
that. Right. In normal state of consciousness.

00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:26.460
So they're afraid they might lose their control.

00:59:26.659 --> 00:59:29.480
Right. Yeah. I mean, I've had personally some

00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:32.000
terrifying psychedelic experiences, but the way

00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:33.519
I've gotten through them is just to give in.

00:59:34.110 --> 00:59:36.429
Just to give in. And for a person like myself

00:59:36.429 --> 00:59:38.170
who's kind of a control freak, especially when

00:59:38.170 --> 00:59:41.590
I was younger, it's a hard thing to do. Just

00:59:41.590 --> 00:59:42.710
because you're like, no, no, no, I'm going to

00:59:42.710 --> 00:59:45.690
be fine. No, no, no, fuck this. I don't like

00:59:45.690 --> 00:59:47.190
where this is going. I'm going to stop this right

00:59:47.190 --> 00:59:48.530
now. I'm going to put a halt to this. I'm going

00:59:48.530 --> 00:59:51.429
to bring myself back to sobriety. It's impossible.

00:59:51.630 --> 00:59:53.750
It's not going to happen. So you have to figure

00:59:53.750 --> 00:59:57.030
out how to just let go and how to just really

00:59:57.030 --> 01:00:00.570
let go and trust the mushroom or the DMT or whatever

01:00:00.570 --> 01:00:02.929
it is that you're on to take you on this ride.

01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:06.239
You'll be okay when it's over. And if you can't

01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:08.239
do that, that's the bad trip. And I've seen a

01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:10.699
lot of people have bad trips. Close friends.

01:00:10.980 --> 01:00:13.559
We are the casualty of the fact that we don't

01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:15.940
have an infrastructure tradition in our societies

01:00:15.940 --> 01:00:18.619
like First Peoples and Native Americans do. They

01:00:18.619 --> 01:00:20.599
have set up a structure. They have a tradition.

01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:23.440
Shamanic tradition. Shamanic tradition, rituals,

01:00:23.820 --> 01:00:26.139
elders. They've done this for a long time. They

01:00:26.139 --> 01:00:29.260
have set and setting down. They know how to treat

01:00:29.260 --> 01:00:32.380
these powerful medicines in the right context.

01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:37.000
Yes. And we lack that. Did you know that mushrooms

01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:40.219
were specifically banned from beer in the Bavarian

01:00:40.219 --> 01:00:44.840
Beer Act of 1516? Whoa. And mushrooms and henbane

01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:49.070
and other plants were used in meads. Psychoactive

01:00:49.070 --> 01:00:54.789
beers and celebrated by people practicing pagan

01:00:54.789 --> 01:00:59.250
religions in Europe in the forest. And the struggle

01:00:59.250 --> 01:01:01.969
between, I believe, Christianity, monotheism

01:01:01.969 --> 01:01:04.070
versus polytheism and nature -based religions,

01:01:04.250 --> 01:01:07.050
there was a collision course. And then under

01:01:07.050 --> 01:01:09.730
pressure of the church, they banned the addition

01:01:09.730 --> 01:01:13.159
of these. Plants that could be your gateway to

01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:15.380
God because the church wanted to be in between

01:01:15.380 --> 01:01:18.280
you and God. They wanted to get the tithings.

01:01:18.280 --> 01:01:21.019
They wanted to be your portal and control access

01:01:21.019 --> 01:01:24.300
to the divine. And so these mushrooms are looked

01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:29.860
upon as being specifically a threat to monotheism

01:01:29.860 --> 01:01:33.179
and Christianity. So the Bavarian Beer Act banned

01:01:33.179 --> 01:01:36.230
mushrooms. That's incredible. Terrence had some

01:01:36.230 --> 01:01:37.909
pretty interesting ideas about that. Terrence

01:01:37.909 --> 01:01:40.110
McKenna did one of the things that he said that

01:01:40.110 --> 01:01:42.230
he believed that as the climate changed and some

01:01:42.230 --> 01:01:44.250
mushrooms became less and less available, they

01:01:44.250 --> 01:01:46.309
started preserving them in honey because you

01:01:46.309 --> 01:01:49.050
can preserve things in honey. And that in preserving

01:01:49.050 --> 01:01:52.070
things in honey, you also run into the possibility

01:01:52.070 --> 01:01:55.289
of fermented honey and then fermented honey becoming

01:01:55.289 --> 01:01:59.210
mead. You go into more of an alcohol culture

01:01:59.210 --> 01:02:02.210
than a psychedelic culture, which is really like

01:02:02.210 --> 01:02:03.869
on the opposite end of the spectrum. Alcohol

01:02:03.869 --> 01:02:07.519
culture. There's loosened inhibitions, wild behavior,

01:02:07.900 --> 01:02:10.300
less thought of the consequences of your actions,

01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:14.199
less introspective thinking, much more chaos,

01:02:14.440 --> 01:02:16.699
right? And that he believes that this is probably

01:02:16.699 --> 01:02:19.800
resulting in some sort of a shift, or he believed,

01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:22.400
rather, before he passed. It resulted in some

01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:28.269
sort of a shift from these... more communal mushroom

01:02:28.269 --> 01:02:33.570
-worshiping cultures to what you saw in the Inquisition

01:02:33.570 --> 01:02:35.690
and some of the more chaotic times in history.

01:02:36.190 --> 01:02:38.369
I would respectfully disagree with the second

01:02:38.369 --> 01:02:40.670
part of that analysis. Not what you're saying,

01:02:40.769 --> 01:02:43.389
but what Terrence would have been saying. Mushrooms

01:02:43.389 --> 01:02:44.949
being preserved in honey is a way of preventing

01:02:44.949 --> 01:02:46.769
them from rotting. Right. You don't think that

01:02:46.769 --> 01:02:49.110
had anything to do with mead? Well, I think it

01:02:49.110 --> 01:02:50.849
did have something to do with mead. But the amount

01:02:50.849 --> 01:02:53.269
of alcohol being produced versus the dose that

01:02:53.269 --> 01:02:55.570
you would get. It seemed to me the psilocybin

01:02:55.570 --> 01:02:58.809
dose would be so much more powerful than the

01:02:58.809 --> 01:03:01.110
small amount of alcohol you'd be drinking. Am

01:03:01.110 --> 01:03:03.489
I misrepresenting what he was saying? No, I don't

01:03:03.489 --> 01:03:07.690
think so. So you just disagree with his initial

01:03:07.690 --> 01:03:11.530
idea? Yeah, and that's okay. Terrence was a very

01:03:11.530 --> 01:03:14.610
smart guy, and I still appreciate and love him.

01:03:14.789 --> 01:03:16.150
Well, he had wandering thoughts, and they were

01:03:16.150 --> 01:03:18.070
amazing. Well, his time wave zero was totally

01:03:18.070 --> 01:03:20.489
BS. Well, that was crazy. That was crazy. He

01:03:20.489 --> 01:03:22.469
had the end of time occurring on his birthday.

01:03:22.690 --> 01:03:24.190
I go, don't you think that's a little egocentric?

01:03:26.110 --> 01:03:28.809
Well, he also had some strange sort of a computer

01:03:28.809 --> 01:03:30.650
program, and I've tried to follow it many, many

01:03:30.650 --> 01:03:32.929
times, some of the lectures that he gave on the

01:03:32.929 --> 01:03:35.699
computer program that represented time. Time

01:03:35.699 --> 01:03:38.300
wave zero. What the idea was for people interested,

01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:40.460
he just thought there was going to come a point

01:03:40.460 --> 01:03:43.380
of ultimate novelty. And somehow or another,

01:03:43.460 --> 01:03:46.199
conveniently, he had that point coinciding with

01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:48.619
both his birthday and the end of the Mayan calendar,

01:03:48.619 --> 01:03:50.719
right? Yeah. Yeah. His birthday was December

01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:54.000
21st, 2012 as well. I think so. Somewhere in

01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:55.980
that area? Yeah. It would be a better thing to

01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:58.659
celebrate. That's totally egotistical. I mean,

01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:02.059
I love Tara, but he basically got the math to

01:04:02.059 --> 01:04:06.980
conform to the convenience of his birthday. Whatever.

01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:08.719
We're all guilty of being human. Yeah, yeah.

01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:10.780
Yeah, I mean, even the great ones. I mean, and

01:04:10.780 --> 01:04:12.880
he was a great, he was one of my favorite people

01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:14.900
in terms of like listening to his recordings.

01:04:15.019 --> 01:04:16.920
Do you ever listen to Psychedelic Salon? Oh,

01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:19.719
yeah. Amazing podcast. One of the best articulators

01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:21.840
of the English language I've ever heard. Yes.

01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:24.440
Yeah, I agree. And as is his brother. Yeah. Every

01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:26.360
time his brother, which brings me back to the

01:04:26.360 --> 01:04:27.679
stoned ape theory. One of the things that his

01:04:27.679 --> 01:04:29.440
brother talked about, and maybe you could elaborate

01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:33.239
on this, was the impact that psilocybin has on

01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:36.150
the creation of language. And he thinks. that

01:04:36.150 --> 01:04:38.389
the very pathways that you were discussing, that

01:04:38.389 --> 01:04:43.150
psilocybin sort of... empowers, that that may

01:04:43.150 --> 01:04:46.369
very well have been how human beings started

01:04:46.369 --> 01:04:48.590
elaborating on language. Oh, I think he's correct

01:04:48.590 --> 01:04:52.730
on that because glossolalia. And we know that

01:04:52.730 --> 01:04:54.949
neurogenesis occurs in the hippocampus. What

01:04:54.949 --> 01:04:58.090
is glossolalia? It is the ability to speak in

01:04:58.090 --> 01:05:01.989
eloquent languages and new words, languaging.

01:05:02.130 --> 01:05:05.889
Your ability to language is increased under the

01:05:05.889 --> 01:05:08.170
experience of psilocybin. Speaking of neurogenesis

01:05:08.170 --> 01:05:10.429
and exactly what we've been talking about. is

01:05:10.429 --> 01:05:13.449
that basically your hippocampus is your center

01:05:13.449 --> 01:05:17.889
for learning and memory. And this is why the

01:05:17.889 --> 01:05:20.570
mice got better, because neurogenesis was occurring

01:05:20.570 --> 01:05:23.210
in the hippocampus. And so they regained their

01:05:23.210 --> 01:05:27.730
memory, and they were able to learn. Yes, I think

01:05:27.730 --> 01:05:31.809
the neurogenesis not only occurs in the hippocampus,

01:05:31.809 --> 01:05:34.570
but I think it can also occur in the peripheral

01:05:34.570 --> 01:05:37.789
nervous system. I have an extraordinarily powerful

01:05:37.789 --> 01:05:40.389
story that I would like to tell about neurogenesis.

01:05:40.469 --> 01:05:43.829
And it was from a good friend of mine named Bill

01:05:43.829 --> 01:05:47.090
Webb. He lived in Big Sur, California. He was

01:05:47.090 --> 01:05:49.710
a friend of Ansel Adams and Henry Miller. He

01:05:49.710 --> 01:05:53.809
wrote Tropic of Capricorn, whatever it was. In

01:05:53.809 --> 01:05:56.409
the 60s, this is a big part of the movement in

01:05:56.409 --> 01:05:58.969
the 60s and 70s. And Ansel Adams is the very

01:05:58.969 --> 01:06:03.949
famous photographer. And Bill Webb was a mentor

01:06:03.949 --> 01:06:06.170
to me. I met him when I was 20 years of age.

01:06:06.369 --> 01:06:11.150
I wrote my first book, Philosophy of Mushrooms

01:06:11.150 --> 01:06:12.969
and Our Allies. You wrote your first book at

01:06:12.969 --> 01:06:15.570
20? Actually, when I was 18. You bad motherfucker.

01:06:16.659 --> 01:06:19.000
It was the weirdest – I mean I haven't told anyone

01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:24.880
this in 30 years. But I went up to a place called

01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:27.199
Montana Books in Seattle and I had my manuscript.

01:06:27.559 --> 01:06:29.940
And I walked into the bookstore because I was

01:06:29.940 --> 01:06:32.260
told – Montana Books was kind of an avant -garde

01:06:32.260 --> 01:06:36.960
book publisher in the early 1970s. And so – I

01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:38.420
was told to go up there and I made an appointment

01:06:38.420 --> 01:06:40.539
and I go in, I'm meeting with a publisher and

01:06:40.539 --> 01:06:42.159
he goes, listen, this is an interesting little

01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:44.599
field guide you wrote, but this is not our market.

01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:48.460
You know, you really need a book representative.

01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:51.480
You need an agent. And he said, the best agent

01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:54.730
I know by far is Bill Webb. You know, but I haven't

01:06:54.730 --> 01:06:57.389
seen Bill Webb in two years. But, you know, you

01:06:57.389 --> 01:06:59.989
really need to see Bill Webb. And when he said

01:06:59.989 --> 01:07:03.289
those words, the door opened, a little bell rang,

01:07:03.469 --> 01:07:07.670
and in walked Bill Webb. It was like the publisher

01:07:07.670 --> 01:07:10.650
goes, this is freaking crazy, you know. So Bill

01:07:10.650 --> 01:07:13.150
Webb and I became tightly bonded. He was a father

01:07:13.150 --> 01:07:15.570
figure to me. He was in his 70s when I met him.

01:07:16.070 --> 01:07:19.269
So Bill and I went down to Big Sur and we tripped

01:07:19.269 --> 01:07:21.829
together. It was a great. mentoring, you know,

01:07:21.869 --> 01:07:25.530
father -son relationship. And Bill and I became

01:07:25.530 --> 01:07:28.210
very tight. And then Bill was about 82 years

01:07:28.210 --> 01:07:31.650
of age, and he calls me up and he says, Paul,

01:07:31.929 --> 01:07:34.889
I have to tell you something that's so important,

01:07:34.989 --> 01:07:38.989
and I want you to listen. I said, you understand,

01:07:39.190 --> 01:07:41.030
Paul? I go, yeah, Bill, how are you doing? He

01:07:41.030 --> 01:07:43.170
goes, well, I'm not doing too well. I'm losing

01:07:43.170 --> 01:07:45.369
my sight, I'm losing my hearing, and getting

01:07:45.369 --> 01:07:49.010
old sucks. I said, but I want to tell you something

01:07:49.010 --> 01:07:51.750
that's really important. you know, great Bill.

01:07:51.869 --> 01:07:53.949
I said, tell me. He said, no, Paul, I want you

01:07:53.949 --> 01:07:56.889
to absolutely swear to me you'll tell this to

01:07:56.889 --> 01:08:00.429
other people. I go, got it, Bill. And I'm like,

01:08:00.530 --> 01:08:03.690
okay, Bill, you know, I made the promise. What

01:08:03.690 --> 01:08:06.510
is it? He goes, okay, I've had this freaking

01:08:06.510 --> 01:08:10.110
hearing aid and I hate it. I can't hear the birds

01:08:10.110 --> 01:08:13.309
or the waves breaking on the beach. And that's

01:08:13.309 --> 01:08:14.989
a big part of the Big Sur experience. I lived

01:08:14.989 --> 01:08:17.430
above the cliffs of Big Sur. And I said, well,

01:08:17.470 --> 01:08:20.689
how does this relate? And he goes, well, I did

01:08:20.689 --> 01:08:23.550
a five -gram dose of Cubensis. That's the hero's

01:08:23.550 --> 01:08:26.149
journey for people who are listening. Five grams

01:08:26.149 --> 01:08:29.770
is it. You know, you're on the floor. And he

01:08:29.770 --> 01:08:33.109
was on his deck of his house. And he noticed

01:08:33.109 --> 01:08:34.850
that he didn't need his hearing aid. He could

01:08:34.850 --> 01:08:37.430
hear the birds and the waves and things like

01:08:37.430 --> 01:08:40.149
that. And he's laying there just, you know, he's

01:08:40.149 --> 01:08:43.880
like 80. in the mid -80s at that point, and he's

01:08:43.880 --> 01:08:45.939
just having this incredibly blissful experience.

01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:49.479
He's coming to reconcile his own mortality, the

01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:51.520
fact that he's going to die. He's thinking about

01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:55.340
his life, and he's kind of dreaming in that dreamscape,

01:08:55.439 --> 01:08:59.380
and he hears click, click, click, click, click,

01:08:59.380 --> 01:09:03.340
click, click. He looks around, and he goes, what's

01:09:03.340 --> 01:09:06.359
that noise? He shakes his ear, maybe something

01:09:06.359 --> 01:09:08.579
in his ear, and it's click, click, click, click,

01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:11.399
click, click, click. And he looks around and

01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:13.199
he goes, he's driving me crazy. I go, where is

01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:15.340
the sound coming from? And he finally looked

01:09:15.340 --> 01:09:19.340
over and it was ants walking on the deck by near

01:09:19.340 --> 01:09:25.039
his head. He could hear their footsteps. Neurogenesis.

01:09:25.500 --> 01:09:28.079
Jesus Christ. And this is an easily measurable

01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:31.970
metric. From psilocybin experience, while he

01:09:31.970 --> 01:09:33.590
was fully on the experience, he said he did not

01:09:33.590 --> 01:09:36.430
use his hearing aid for three or four days. Now,

01:09:36.430 --> 01:09:37.949
I've mentioned this. Why don't you just do mushrooms

01:09:37.949 --> 01:09:39.529
again and keep the hearing aid on? Well, that's

01:09:39.529 --> 01:09:41.710
basically he ran out of Cubensis. And so he had

01:09:41.710 --> 01:09:43.510
to put his hearing aid on. He was asking me for

01:09:43.510 --> 01:09:45.489
Cubensis, and I said, I'm sorry, I can't provide

01:09:45.489 --> 01:09:47.789
it to you. Wow. So I've mentioned this now to

01:09:47.789 --> 01:09:49.409
several of the clinical researchers who have

01:09:49.409 --> 01:09:51.390
DEA license who are doing clinical research.

01:09:51.529 --> 01:09:56.409
This is an easily measurable metric. As people

01:09:56.409 --> 01:10:00.270
are fully in these sessions, they could be giving

01:10:00.270 --> 01:10:04.529
them auditory stimulation to see if the auditory

01:10:04.529 --> 01:10:09.529
nerve is undergoing neurogenesis. And so this

01:10:09.529 --> 01:10:11.050
is something that I think that can be incorporated

01:10:11.050 --> 01:10:12.989
in the clinical studies to see if this is true.

01:10:13.050 --> 01:10:15.810
But Bill was emphatic. And when Bill Webb spoke,

01:10:16.210 --> 01:10:19.550
he had enormous gravitas. This guy was a serious

01:10:19.550 --> 01:10:23.470
intellectual. So I think this is an N of 1 study.

01:10:24.000 --> 01:10:26.300
you know one individual but i think this is something

01:10:26.300 --> 01:10:28.260
that medical researchers should pay attention

01:10:28.260 --> 01:10:31.159
to what do you think could possibly regenerate

01:10:31.159 --> 01:10:34.510
anything that quickly though Like how could it

01:10:34.510 --> 01:10:37.670
happen so quickly that during a four -hour trip?

01:10:37.909 --> 01:10:41.029
Because there's like nodes of crossing and there's

01:10:41.029 --> 01:10:43.489
an interconnectedness that occurs. And there's

01:10:43.489 --> 01:10:46.310
a great graphic, which I didn't send to you in

01:10:46.310 --> 01:10:50.689
advance, showing this is your brain without psilocybin.

01:10:50.729 --> 01:10:53.590
This is your brain with psilocybin. And there's

01:10:53.590 --> 01:10:55.810
a massive amount of neural connections that are

01:10:55.810 --> 01:11:00.949
occurring. So I think, you know. Just like water

01:11:00.949 --> 01:11:03.409
chooses the path of least resistance, I think

01:11:03.409 --> 01:11:06.350
that neurologically, if there is a neurological

01:11:06.350 --> 01:11:11.069
pathway that can help you as a species, as an

01:11:11.069 --> 01:11:13.649
individual, survive, should there be a saber

01:11:13.649 --> 01:11:16.810
-toothed tiger on the horizon, then I think that

01:11:16.810 --> 01:11:22.100
the economy of energy in nature would... reward

01:11:22.100 --> 01:11:24.619
the neurological pathways that are most likely

01:11:24.619 --> 01:11:27.720
to lead to your survival. So I think that neurogenesis

01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:30.300
across the brain occurred, just like me with

01:11:30.300 --> 01:11:32.199
my stuttering, and there was another neurological

01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:35.840
pathway. But in Bill's case, when he lost his

01:11:35.840 --> 01:11:39.779
access to those mushrooms, the neuropathy became

01:11:39.779 --> 01:11:44.840
more resident and prominent. And so we're looking

01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:47.840
at these images. Amazing. Jamie's the best. We're

01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:50.399
looking at these images, and could you explain

01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:52.920
to us what these are? This is your brain on magic

01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:55.760
mushrooms. Yeah, this is exactly opposite of

01:11:55.760 --> 01:12:02.539
Nancy Reagan's mantra here. You can push this

01:12:02.539 --> 01:12:06.340
up to your face. Okay, the placebo is on the

01:12:06.340 --> 01:12:10.300
left. This is your normal representation of interconnectedness

01:12:10.300 --> 01:12:13.239
between the nodes of your brain. So try to explain

01:12:13.239 --> 01:12:15.199
this to people. Most of the people are just listening

01:12:15.199 --> 01:12:18.819
rather than viewing this. The one on the left,

01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:24.300
it basically shows connections between neuronal

01:12:24.300 --> 01:12:28.420
nodes that may be on the order of 40 or 50 different

01:12:28.420 --> 01:12:31.380
nodes of crossing. The one on the right with

01:12:31.380 --> 01:12:35.159
psilocybin is literally in the hundreds. And

01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:40.720
the nodes of crossing not only are... More of

01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:44.079
them, but the thickness of the lines speaks to

01:12:44.079 --> 01:12:47.859
how robust those nodes of crossing are for carrying

01:12:47.859 --> 01:12:51.920
neurological signals. So this is pretty amazing.

01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:55.140
Now, this also influences, I think, and is important

01:12:55.140 --> 01:13:00.260
for our U .S. military. You know, for coders,

01:13:00.340 --> 01:13:05.420
for people who are trying to solve very complex

01:13:05.420 --> 01:13:08.659
data sets, the ability of you to have increased

01:13:08.659 --> 01:13:11.939
cognition and increased intelligence. And this

01:13:11.939 --> 01:13:14.680
is why microdosing is the rage in Silicon Valley.

01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:18.180
The enormous number of coders are microdosing

01:13:18.180 --> 01:13:20.920
right now. And for those who are listening, let's

01:13:20.920 --> 01:13:23.779
use Psilocybe cubensis as a standard species

01:13:23.779 --> 01:13:27.549
because that's the one that's mostly grown. And

01:13:27.549 --> 01:13:30.390
at a half a gram to a quarter gram, you have

01:13:30.390 --> 01:13:34.270
liftoff. Five grams is the full -blown hero's

01:13:34.270 --> 01:13:37.029
journey. A lot of people will take between two

01:13:37.029 --> 01:13:40.270
and four grams as a moderately spiritual experience,

01:13:40.529 --> 01:13:45.970
four grams being higher. And so microdosing is

01:13:45.970 --> 01:13:52.600
taking a dose so low. that if at most you might

01:13:52.600 --> 01:13:55.060
feel it a little bit giddy the first time you

01:13:55.060 --> 01:13:56.720
take it the first day, but you build up a tolerance

01:13:56.720 --> 01:13:59.140
immediately the second day, so the second, third

01:13:59.140 --> 01:14:00.899
day you would feel nothing. So it's on the order

01:14:00.899 --> 01:14:05.239
of like a tenth of a gram of Cubensis where people

01:14:05.239 --> 01:14:08.619
are taking this and then they're taking it repeatedly

01:14:08.619 --> 01:14:14.079
over time and coders in Silicon Valley from the

01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:18.229
biggest computer. companies that we all know

01:14:18.229 --> 01:14:24.449
this is a not only a fashion but a tool that

01:14:24.449 --> 01:14:26.630
they're seeing the increased ability for coming

01:14:26.630 --> 01:14:29.090
up with codes and it's a competitive advantage

01:14:29.090 --> 01:14:31.909
in the capitalistic system i have a good friend

01:14:31.909 --> 01:14:34.130
who's a world champion kickboxer and one of the

01:14:34.130 --> 01:14:36.289
best in the world he microdoses daily and he's

01:14:36.289 --> 01:14:39.039
been doing it over the last like I want to say

01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:43.239
probably a year or so, and he has achieved phenomenal

01:14:43.239 --> 01:14:45.420
improvements in his performance because of that.

01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:47.579
He says that when he's sparring, it's almost

01:14:47.579 --> 01:14:49.659
like he's psychic, like he knows what people

01:14:49.659 --> 01:14:51.699
are going to do before they do it. He said his

01:14:51.699 --> 01:14:54.279
mood is better, he feels better, he just feels

01:14:54.279 --> 01:14:57.420
more balanced, and he'll take days off. And when

01:14:57.420 --> 01:14:59.779
he takes days off, and even though he's completely

01:14:59.779 --> 01:15:01.779
sober while he's microdosing, because he's really

01:15:01.779 --> 01:15:04.539
only microdosing, there's something about...

01:15:04.760 --> 01:15:06.760
Taking days off where everything just feels like

01:15:06.760 --> 01:15:09.319
kind of shitty. It just doesn't feel good. And

01:15:09.319 --> 01:15:11.880
then he's like, oh, I didn't take my microdose.

01:15:11.979 --> 01:15:14.279
And so he takes it again and goes right back

01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:16.460
to that place. But he feels like he's in the

01:15:16.460 --> 01:15:20.159
matrix. Well, actually, it's probably good that

01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:22.420
he interrupts it because it washes. Those receptors

01:15:22.420 --> 01:15:24.800
clean of the psilocybin. How much time do you

01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:26.260
think you should interrupt for? Two days out

01:15:26.260 --> 01:15:29.500
of seven. So five days on, two days off. Now,

01:15:29.539 --> 01:15:31.500
I'm not making official recommendations. I'm

01:15:31.500 --> 01:15:39.100
just saying. I will. I'll do it for you. My small

01:15:39.100 --> 01:15:41.920
amount of knowledge on this subject, I think

01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:43.779
that makes sense. That's consistent with traditional

01:15:43.779 --> 01:15:46.220
Chinese medicine. It's also consistent for those

01:15:46.220 --> 01:15:48.539
of us who drink coffee like myself. You drink

01:15:48.539 --> 01:15:50.920
coffee for five days. You take two days off.

01:15:51.039 --> 01:15:52.779
That next day is the strongest cup of coffee

01:15:52.779 --> 01:15:55.699
you've had in a long time. Me and my friends

01:15:55.699 --> 01:15:57.640
who are just coming to the next podcast after

01:15:57.640 --> 01:16:00.460
this, we just got done doing Sober October. So

01:16:00.460 --> 01:16:03.199
no alcohol, no marijuana, no nothing. Well, we

01:16:03.199 --> 01:16:06.500
drank coffee, but that's it. And when I stopped

01:16:06.500 --> 01:16:08.560
smoking marijuana, the first thing that happened

01:16:08.560 --> 01:16:12.239
is my dreams became rocket charged, like very

01:16:12.239 --> 01:16:17.399
bizarre, like crazy, lucid, strange, weird dreams.

01:16:17.899 --> 01:16:20.060
Not lucid in the sense that I controlled them,

01:16:20.140 --> 01:16:22.359
but lucid in the sense that I realized I was

01:16:22.359 --> 01:16:26.060
dreaming and I was just. like having incredibly

01:16:26.060 --> 01:16:29.340
vivid, vibrant dreams, and I would wake up from

01:16:29.340 --> 01:16:32.840
them and be certain that what I had done was

01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:34.760
real. Like I had one dream that I fell asleep

01:16:34.760 --> 01:16:37.720
on the couch, and I did fall asleep on the couch,

01:16:37.819 --> 01:16:40.500
but while I was asleep, I was like, oh, I'm struggling

01:16:40.500 --> 01:16:42.619
to get this blanket over me while I'm on the

01:16:42.619 --> 01:16:44.779
couch. And I'm pulling it, but it's stuck under

01:16:44.779 --> 01:16:46.520
the cushions, and I'm struggling, and I kind

01:16:46.520 --> 01:16:48.539
of halfway got it over me, and I went to sleep

01:16:48.539 --> 01:16:50.500
again. Well, when I woke up in the morning, there

01:16:50.500 --> 01:16:52.319
was no blanket. There was no blanket anywhere

01:16:52.319 --> 01:16:57.529
near me. Didn't exist. I had a lucid dream about

01:16:57.529 --> 01:16:59.810
covering myself with a blanket while sleeping

01:16:59.810 --> 01:17:05.350
on this couch. Very strange. And very primal

01:17:05.350 --> 01:17:07.789
dreams, too, like being chased by wolves and

01:17:07.789 --> 01:17:11.210
running into bears and caves and really bizarre,

01:17:11.350 --> 01:17:16.649
very, very vibrant colors. And apparently from

01:17:16.649 --> 01:17:19.869
what I've read, marijuana does something to suppress

01:17:19.869 --> 01:17:25.319
REM sleep. time off of it, your REM sleep just

01:17:25.319 --> 01:17:27.479
gets jacked through the roof. You know, I've

01:17:27.479 --> 01:17:30.000
heard this many, many times. I've never seen

01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.060
a clinical study on it, but it's the type of

01:17:32.060 --> 01:17:35.220
thing you hear so many times that you have pretty

01:17:35.220 --> 01:17:37.359
good confidence that this is true. Well, we all

01:17:37.359 --> 01:17:39.420
experienced it. All my friends who did it experienced

01:17:39.420 --> 01:17:41.300
it. Ari in particular probably smokes as much

01:17:41.300 --> 01:17:43.859
as I do, maybe more. He experienced it deeply.

01:17:44.079 --> 01:17:45.880
I'm glad that you mentioned lucid dreams because

01:17:45.880 --> 01:17:48.340
this is a nice segue to, I think, the greatest

01:17:48.340 --> 01:17:51.909
discovery I've made of my life. And I want us

01:17:51.909 --> 01:17:54.609
all came through a lucid dream. So let me let

01:17:54.609 --> 01:17:58.750
me set the stage here. And colony collapse disorder

01:17:58.750 --> 01:18:02.229
is a threat to worldwide food biosecurity and

01:18:02.229 --> 01:18:05.350
killing bees. Bees around the world are being

01:18:05.350 --> 01:18:07.109
decimated. Say the name of the disorder again.

01:18:07.189 --> 01:18:10.630
Colony collapse disorder. Now bees are dying

01:18:10.630 --> 01:18:13.689
off in enormous quantities. Oklahoma lost 85

01:18:13.689 --> 01:18:19.239
percent. of its beehives last year, 2016, 2017,

01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:26.060
the annual loss of bees report. And Maryland

01:18:26.060 --> 01:18:29.500
lost 75%. Nebraska, I think, lost 60%. I met

01:18:29.500 --> 01:18:31.760
a beekeeper in Washington State who lost 75 %

01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:36.199
of his 35 ,000 hives. Now, Apis meleifera is

01:18:36.199 --> 01:18:39.340
a honeybee, and it's factory farmed now. And

01:18:39.340 --> 01:18:42.220
the almond harvest in California is the biggest

01:18:42.220 --> 01:18:46.220
market. For beekeepers who send their bees to

01:18:46.220 --> 01:18:49.199
the almond orchards, one bee can pollinate 1

01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:53.279
,000 flowers in a day. So every flower that bee

01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:56.699
visits is an almond. So it's one of the most

01:18:56.699 --> 01:18:59.779
bee -dependent crops in the world. 35 % of your

01:18:59.779 --> 01:19:02.880
food is directly dependent upon bee pollination.

01:19:03.300 --> 01:19:07.460
The other 65%, much of that is indirectly dependent.

01:19:07.659 --> 01:19:12.300
But hay, alfalfa, and clover for cows. All of

01:19:12.300 --> 01:19:14.460
our dairy is dependent upon bee pollination.

01:19:14.600 --> 01:19:18.199
All of our berries, all of our nuts, coffee is.

01:19:19.140 --> 01:19:23.699
Even cannabis and other non -dependent plants

01:19:23.699 --> 01:19:27.260
benefit from what's called buzz pollination because

01:19:27.260 --> 01:19:30.319
the bees then can spread the pollen better through

01:19:30.319 --> 01:19:35.680
the air. It is now a thought by many of the entomologists

01:19:35.680 --> 01:19:37.840
that I've been dealing with. that we could have

01:19:37.840 --> 01:19:40.260
full colony collapse across the world within

01:19:40.260 --> 01:19:43.920
10 years. The cost, it will be astronomical to

01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:47.659
our society. Prices of food will raise. Poverty

01:19:47.659 --> 01:19:49.739
will increase. You could make the argument that

01:19:49.739 --> 01:19:52.220
increased poverty leads to terrorism because

01:19:52.220 --> 01:19:56.789
people are poorer. They're desperate. Colony

01:19:56.789 --> 01:19:59.569
collapse now is much worse than most people realize

01:19:59.569 --> 01:20:02.289
because all the wild bees have now been infected.

01:20:02.710 --> 01:20:05.569
So 80 % of pollination services come from wild

01:20:05.569 --> 01:20:08.989
bees and 20 % comes from managed honeybees. Apis

01:20:08.989 --> 01:20:11.470
melefera is from a honeybee from Europe brought

01:20:11.470 --> 01:20:15.630
over in the 1700s. In 1984, the varroa mite was

01:20:15.630 --> 01:20:17.909
introduced in the United States. And the varroa

01:20:17.909 --> 01:20:22.520
mite is like a... parasite on the backs of bees

01:20:22.520 --> 01:20:24.880
and injects viruses, in particular, the deformed

01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:28.079
wing virus, the Lake Sinai virus, and the black

01:20:28.079 --> 01:20:30.680
queen cell virus. The deformed wing virus is

01:20:30.680 --> 01:20:33.760
really the most important one. Bees used to go,

01:20:34.260 --> 01:20:37.000
and they only live 30 days, but they used to

01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:39.460
go pollinating for nine days. So they leave the

01:20:39.460 --> 01:20:42.380
hive and they pollinate for about nine days and

01:20:42.380 --> 01:20:45.619
bring back pollen. And that's their service to

01:20:45.619 --> 01:20:48.380
the hive and they die off. Now the average time

01:20:48.380 --> 01:20:51.840
for pollination is only four days. In order to

01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:54.979
fight the mites, they've been using a toxic insecticide

01:20:54.979 --> 01:20:59.460
called Amitraz. Amitraz is licensed for fighting

01:20:59.460 --> 01:21:03.079
ticks on cattle. Using cattle strength doses

01:21:03.079 --> 01:21:06.600
of Amitraz off -label, beekeepers have been drenching

01:21:06.600 --> 01:21:09.500
their hives with Amitraz twice per year. Now

01:21:09.500 --> 01:21:11.260
the mites have built up tolerance, and now they're

01:21:11.260 --> 01:21:13.800
up to nine times a year. They're soaking the

01:21:13.800 --> 01:21:15.739
hives in order to kill the mites because the

01:21:15.739 --> 01:21:17.859
mites are injecting these viruses. This is all

01:21:17.859 --> 01:21:21.289
hands on deck. The proverbial shit's going to

01:21:21.289 --> 01:21:24.229
hit the fan on this. This is extremely important.

01:21:24.590 --> 01:21:26.750
And interestingly, it's the number one bridge

01:21:26.750 --> 01:21:29.170
issue between liberals and conservatives. So

01:21:29.170 --> 01:21:30.869
when you're at Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas

01:21:30.869 --> 01:21:34.149
or Hanukkah, if you want to avoid talking about

01:21:34.149 --> 01:21:37.590
Trump and politics and Hillary or Benghazi or

01:21:37.590 --> 01:21:41.270
whatever the subject dispute is, talk about bees.

01:21:41.689 --> 01:21:44.689
Everyone's on board on protecting the bees. So

01:21:44.689 --> 01:21:49.659
I had a waking dream. First, 1984, I had two

01:21:49.659 --> 01:21:53.220
beehives. I planted a mushroom in my garden called

01:21:53.220 --> 01:21:56.000
the Garden Giant. And one time this summer, I

01:21:56.000 --> 01:21:58.659
came out to water my mushrooms, and it was covered

01:21:58.659 --> 01:22:01.229
with bees. And the bees moved the wood chips

01:22:01.229 --> 01:22:03.810
aside, and I could see this white mycelium, and

01:22:03.810 --> 01:22:06.789
they were sipping on the little droplets oozing

01:22:06.789 --> 01:22:08.970
from the mycelium. I got real excited, and I

01:22:08.970 --> 01:22:11.289
kept a journal. And for 40 days, from dawn to

01:22:11.289 --> 01:22:13.729
dusk, there was a continuous convoy of bees to

01:22:13.729 --> 01:22:17.510
my mushroom bed. It was an edible mushroom. And

01:22:17.510 --> 01:22:19.649
I made note of it. I published it in Harris Smith

01:22:19.649 --> 01:22:21.770
Magazine in 1988. I put it in one of my books

01:22:21.770 --> 01:22:25.289
in 1994, and then I forgot about it. So I got

01:22:25.289 --> 01:22:27.130
involved with the U .S. BioShield biodefense

01:22:27.130 --> 01:22:29.649
program directly after 9 -11. You can Google

01:22:29.649 --> 01:22:32.050
my name, Stamets, and smallpox. There's a vetted

01:22:32.050 --> 01:22:36.590
press release from the U .S. government. They

01:22:36.590 --> 01:22:42.770
did 2 ,200 -plus analyses of our mushroom extracts.

01:22:42.850 --> 01:22:45.250
And we found extracts that were highly active

01:22:45.250 --> 01:22:49.250
against flu viruses, including bird flu, against

01:22:49.250 --> 01:22:51.810
herpes, and against pox viruses, including smallpox.

01:22:52.050 --> 01:22:55.630
So I have a patent that issued on this. It's

01:22:55.630 --> 01:22:59.250
a great secondary story because Black Hawk Helicopter

01:22:59.250 --> 01:23:00.869
was coming to my laboratory, all this other stuff.

01:23:00.949 --> 01:23:04.239
What? But I'll get to that. We'll get to that

01:23:04.239 --> 01:23:05.039
in a second. Yeah, we'll get to that in a second.

01:23:05.319 --> 01:23:10.500
It's a fun, true conspiracy story. So I had published

01:23:10.500 --> 01:23:12.659
this research on the antiviral properties of

01:23:12.659 --> 01:23:16.260
mushrooms, the mycelium. And then I heard about

01:23:16.260 --> 01:23:18.640
the bees. I had raised bees. And then a friend

01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:20.140
of mine, Louis Schwarzberg, we're doing a movie

01:23:20.140 --> 01:23:22.680
called Fantastic Fungi. They're making for 10

01:23:22.680 --> 01:23:26.819
years. And Louis came to me and said, Paul, I

01:23:26.819 --> 01:23:30.060
have eight patents on fungi that can control.

01:23:31.160 --> 01:23:34.399
termites, ants, mosquitoes. You can Google right

01:23:34.399 --> 01:23:37.220
now, stamets can take down Monsanto. There's

01:23:37.220 --> 01:23:39.640
probably a thousand websites because my patents

01:23:39.640 --> 01:23:43.560
are disruptive patents. So I can very much control

01:23:43.560 --> 01:23:46.159
termites and ants from consuming your house for

01:23:46.159 --> 01:23:49.039
about 20 cents. And I met with all the big companies.

01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:51.979
But anyhow, so Louis knew about my research on

01:23:51.979 --> 01:23:55.079
that. I've spoken on this before. And he said,

01:23:55.119 --> 01:23:57.640
Paul, the mites are killing the bees. Can't you

01:23:57.640 --> 01:24:00.979
do something to help the mites? And so, Now,

01:24:01.079 --> 01:24:04.060
OK, that's two stories. We have this bio shield,

01:24:04.180 --> 01:24:06.220
biodefense story and my antiviral stuff. We have

01:24:06.220 --> 01:24:10.020
me growing the mushrooms in the garden and hiking

01:24:10.020 --> 01:24:12.560
the old growth forest a lot. And I'm hiking the

01:24:12.560 --> 01:24:15.140
old growth forest. And the way I orient here

01:24:15.140 --> 01:24:17.800
is one of the few skill sets I have. I like just

01:24:17.800 --> 01:24:20.960
getting off trail. And I'm in the South Fork

01:24:20.960 --> 01:24:23.060
of the Ho River and I'm deep in the old growth

01:24:23.060 --> 01:24:25.380
forest. I come around a corner and I see a bear

01:24:25.380 --> 01:24:28.539
strike. The bear came up. Bam, scratched this

01:24:28.539 --> 01:24:32.779
tree, a huge paw strike in the tree. And I told

01:24:32.779 --> 01:24:36.979
my wife, I said, you know, the Washington State,

01:24:37.119 --> 01:24:40.500
the school system is dependent upon funding from

01:24:40.500 --> 01:24:45.020
selling timber to the lumber companies. So the

01:24:45.020 --> 01:24:47.140
school system depended upon timber harvest off

01:24:47.140 --> 01:24:50.680
of public lands. So in the human's great wisdom,

01:24:50.899 --> 01:24:55.579
they decided that the bears were. jeopardizing

01:24:55.579 --> 01:24:58.220
the educational funds in Washington State. So

01:24:58.220 --> 01:25:01.260
they hired hunters to kill all the bears. So

01:25:01.260 --> 01:25:05.039
my neighbor killed 400 bears. That's why we have

01:25:05.039 --> 01:25:07.539
a salmon run right now on Skookum Inlet in Camilchia

01:25:07.539 --> 01:25:10.220
Point, Washington. There's no bears around because

01:25:10.220 --> 01:25:12.699
they saw the bears as a threat to the economic

01:25:12.699 --> 01:25:14.020
stability of the school system. I don't understand

01:25:14.020 --> 01:25:15.039
why the bears would be a threat. Because the

01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:16.939
bears, when they scratched the trees, it would

01:25:16.939 --> 01:25:18.960
become an entry room for a polypore mushroom.

01:25:19.500 --> 01:25:22.439
So I told my wife. If this is true, let's come

01:25:22.439 --> 01:25:24.779
back in two years and see if this polypore mushroom

01:25:24.779 --> 01:25:26.939
is growing there. These are wood conks, similar

01:25:26.939 --> 01:25:29.460
to the one my hat is made from. So we came back

01:25:29.460 --> 01:25:31.699
two years later, and sure enough, this wood conk

01:25:31.699 --> 01:25:33.300
was growing out of the tree. The tree had died,

01:25:33.380 --> 01:25:36.199
so they kind of got it right. So when bears scratch

01:25:36.199 --> 01:25:39.359
trees, resin comes out, and bees are attracted

01:25:39.359 --> 01:25:41.859
to the propolis to make propolis from the resins

01:25:41.859 --> 01:25:44.659
to patch their hives from cracks to prevent invaders

01:25:44.659 --> 01:25:47.590
coming into a beehive. These are all seemingly

01:25:47.590 --> 01:25:49.550
disparate stories, and this is why this waking

01:25:49.550 --> 01:25:52.670
dream put it all together. So I have my garden

01:25:52.670 --> 01:25:56.409
giant in bed that the bees are coming to. I have

01:25:56.409 --> 01:25:58.350
the BioShield biodefense program where I found

01:25:58.350 --> 01:26:00.250
these extracts are highly active against viruses.

01:26:01.449 --> 01:26:04.289
Bear scratch trees introduce polypore mushrooms.

01:26:05.510 --> 01:26:08.310
And then my friend Louis Schwartzberg is saying,

01:26:08.409 --> 01:26:12.100
you know, how can you help the bees? and I highly

01:26:12.100 --> 01:26:14.760
recommend this to everybody listening, is this

01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:17.819
lucid dream state. At that state, when you're

01:26:17.819 --> 01:26:20.859
fully asleep and you just go into the ether of

01:26:20.859 --> 01:26:26.119
wakefulness, stay there. Reside there. We have

01:26:26.119 --> 01:26:28.560
random access memory. Before you get your neurological

01:26:28.560 --> 01:26:31.840
pathways all set up by habit of what you're going

01:26:31.840 --> 01:26:36.020
to do, just exist in that space. And then I add

01:26:36.020 --> 01:26:39.800
synapses. activate a new neurological pathway,

01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:41.659
I had an epiphany. I think I know how to save

01:26:41.659 --> 01:26:45.739
the bees. Fast forward now, I have multiple patents

01:26:45.739 --> 01:26:48.739
issuing all over the world. We've done research

01:26:48.739 --> 01:26:51.960
for Washington State University. We've gathered

01:26:51.960 --> 01:27:01.359
$2 .5 million. You can go to www .bees .wsu .edu.

01:27:02.179 --> 01:27:05.100
So the Washington University dot edu for education.

01:27:06.260 --> 01:27:08.260
And you'll see the resource that we have there.

01:27:08.319 --> 01:27:13.560
We are now have found that the extracts of Amadou,

01:27:13.640 --> 01:27:18.399
the one my hat is made from, doubles the lifespan

01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:21.840
of bees and reduces the deformed wing virus by

01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:26.340
more than a thousand fold in 10 days. I hit Joe

01:27:26.340 --> 01:27:28.819
the frigging home run. I'm not an entomologist.

01:27:29.119 --> 01:27:32.140
I have two beehives. I'm not even a big beekeeper.

01:27:32.840 --> 01:27:36.859
But I put these thoughts together that if these

01:27:36.859 --> 01:27:39.340
mushroom extracts reduce viruses that harm humans,

01:27:39.380 --> 01:27:42.819
pigs and birds, what would they do with bees?

01:27:43.119 --> 01:27:45.500
Now, we all grew up with Winnie the Pooh. So

01:27:45.500 --> 01:27:48.720
my U .S. patent issued this past year. And now

01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:50.979
it's issued in Australia, United States, issuing

01:27:50.979 --> 01:27:53.640
in Europe, Eurasia, and Canada. I plan to open

01:27:53.640 --> 01:27:56.260
source it for the rest of the world. But I was

01:27:56.260 --> 01:27:57.899
waiting on pins and needles because certainly

01:27:57.899 --> 01:27:59.520
it would be something called prior art. Now,

01:27:59.539 --> 01:28:04.060
patents are issued based on several criteria.

01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:07.180
One, no prior art. No one's ever mentioned it.

01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:10.920
Secondly, contrary to conventional wisdom. So

01:28:10.920 --> 01:28:13.279
if you invented the bicycle, the wheel, and you

01:28:13.279 --> 01:28:15.000
came up with a tricycle, that's not patentable.

01:28:15.319 --> 01:28:18.920
That's pretty obvious because it's logical. So

01:28:18.920 --> 01:28:21.500
you want something that has no evidence in the

01:28:21.500 --> 01:28:24.279
literature, public or private or scientific or

01:28:24.279 --> 01:28:27.300
popular. You want it contrary to conventional

01:28:27.300 --> 01:28:31.100
wisdom. which means that you want experts to

01:28:31.100 --> 01:28:32.979
teach away from your invention. So every time

01:28:32.979 --> 01:28:37.579
someone out there tells me that Paul Stamets

01:28:37.579 --> 01:28:41.479
is full of crap, nothing he says is true, I have

01:28:41.479 --> 01:28:44.380
one great response. I say, thank you. You're

01:28:44.380 --> 01:28:46.739
helping my patentability because the more experts

01:28:46.739 --> 01:28:50.220
that teach away from my invention, the more unconventional

01:28:50.220 --> 01:28:52.159
my invention is, hence the more patentable it

01:28:52.159 --> 01:28:55.010
is. The third criteria is usefulness. Benjamin

01:28:55.010 --> 01:28:56.789
Franklin could not have invented the iPhone.

01:28:57.069 --> 01:28:59.770
There's no usefulness and no cell towers. So

01:28:59.770 --> 01:29:01.869
these are the three criteria. After 17 years,

01:29:01.970 --> 01:29:04.829
it becomes open source. So the idea is to incentivize

01:29:04.829 --> 01:29:07.369
inventors. That's why you have the iPhone that

01:29:07.369 --> 01:29:10.529
draws all your computers. I had one person call

01:29:10.529 --> 01:29:12.029
me up on a cell phone and said, how dare you

01:29:12.029 --> 01:29:14.670
patent this? I go, how dare you speak to me on

01:29:14.670 --> 01:29:17.770
a cell phone that was enabled by a patent so

01:29:17.770 --> 01:29:19.510
you could tell me that I shouldn't be patenting

01:29:19.510 --> 01:29:21.369
things? I'm just like, the contradictions are

01:29:21.369 --> 01:29:25.920
pretty obvious. The patents now have issued and

01:29:25.920 --> 01:29:28.039
there was no prior art. Even though we all grew

01:29:28.039 --> 01:29:30.699
up with Winnie the Pooh, we knew that bears went

01:29:30.699 --> 01:29:33.819
in the rotted trees to find honey and beehives.

01:29:34.000 --> 01:29:37.659
No one, apparently until me, made the connection

01:29:37.659 --> 01:29:40.479
that bees are attracted to the mycelium and rotted

01:29:40.479 --> 01:29:42.699
logs because of immunological benefit. Now, let's

01:29:42.699 --> 01:29:44.500
go back in time because this is a very big picture

01:29:44.500 --> 01:29:47.800
concept here. 12 ,000 years ago, we invented

01:29:47.800 --> 01:29:51.439
agriculture. What did we do? We started to deforest.

01:29:51.760 --> 01:29:54.819
When we started cutting down the trees, we began

01:29:54.819 --> 01:29:57.260
to dismantle the immunological mycelial nets

01:29:57.260 --> 01:30:01.779
of nature. Mycelium needs wood to decompose.

01:30:01.800 --> 01:30:03.600
You take away the wood, the mycelium doesn't

01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:07.180
have a habitat. Because the mycelium is producing

01:30:07.180 --> 01:30:10.239
these antiviral compounds rotting the wood, the

01:30:10.239 --> 01:30:12.579
bees were attracted. And because of deforestation

01:30:12.579 --> 01:30:15.619
now, we're stressing the bees. So there's not

01:30:15.619 --> 01:30:19.460
only... The lack of habitat deforestation, there's

01:30:19.460 --> 01:30:23.960
now neonicotinoids. Bear and Syngenta that produces

01:30:23.960 --> 01:30:26.579
neonics, as they're known, a toxic insecticide,

01:30:26.859 --> 01:30:30.100
sponsored research in Europe because they didn't

01:30:30.100 --> 01:30:31.960
believe that neonicotinoids harmed the bees.

01:30:32.180 --> 01:30:35.840
The researchers then finally published, when

01:30:35.840 --> 01:30:37.699
they got the results, that was contrary to the

01:30:37.699 --> 01:30:40.460
interests of Syngenta and Bear, that in fact

01:30:40.460 --> 01:30:42.520
neonicotinoids harmed the second and third generations.

01:30:42.520 --> 01:30:44.640
Now neonicotinoids are now banned in Europe.

01:30:45.240 --> 01:30:47.100
They are not banned in the United States, so

01:30:47.100 --> 01:30:50.140
you have drift. of these neonicotinoids on their

01:30:50.140 --> 01:30:53.520
adjacent fields. So you have loss of wood, deforestation.

01:30:53.640 --> 01:30:56.380
You have neonicotinoids. You have glyphosates

01:30:56.380 --> 01:30:58.460
that are associated with GMOs because they interfere

01:30:58.460 --> 01:31:00.680
with the microbiome of the bees and their gut

01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:03.199
flora, so they can't detoxify. It's called the

01:31:03.199 --> 01:31:06.060
cytochrome P450 pathway. We all have it breaking

01:31:06.060 --> 01:31:08.560
down toxins. So there's a confluence of multiple

01:31:08.560 --> 01:31:10.840
stressors, but the nail in the coffin by far

01:31:10.840 --> 01:31:13.300
is the deformed wing virus. And we have found

01:31:13.300 --> 01:31:16.020
now that the extracts of this, one drop per 1

01:31:16.020 --> 01:31:19.960
,000 drops, liter and a liter can reduce the

01:31:19.960 --> 01:31:22.020
viruses in bees by more than a thousand fold

01:31:22.020 --> 01:31:24.539
and double their lifespan. So it's a frigging

01:31:24.539 --> 01:31:27.260
home run because it protects food biosecurity

01:31:27.260 --> 01:31:29.760
around the world at a time that food ecosystems

01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:32.300
are collapsing. But think of the bigger picture

01:31:32.300 --> 01:31:34.979
here. For millions of years, we were forest people.

01:31:35.180 --> 01:31:37.840
We began deforestation when we got into agriculture.

01:31:38.060 --> 01:31:40.880
We began to dismantle the immunological networks

01:31:40.880 --> 01:31:43.779
of nature, the mycelium that's resident. The

01:31:43.779 --> 01:31:45.520
fact that these same mushrooms reduce viruses

01:31:45.520 --> 01:31:53.939
in bees. pigs, birds, people, speaks to me of

01:31:53.939 --> 01:31:57.800
a bigger concept that the mycelium is part of

01:31:57.800 --> 01:32:01.159
the immunity of the ecosystem. And as we lose

01:32:01.159 --> 01:32:04.079
the debris fields that the mycelium is dependent

01:32:04.079 --> 01:32:07.340
upon, we begin to dismantle the immunological

01:32:07.340 --> 01:32:10.180
health of our environment and zoonotic diseases,

01:32:10.579 --> 01:32:12.880
diseases coming from factory farms, whether they're

01:32:12.880 --> 01:32:17.909
from pigs or chicken farms. We have one extraordinary

01:32:17.909 --> 01:32:21.189
experiment, and this speaks to the Black Hawk

01:32:21.189 --> 01:32:24.590
helicopter story, is that I was working with

01:32:24.590 --> 01:32:27.090
the Bioshield Biodefense Program directly after

01:32:27.090 --> 01:32:30.529
9 -11. They contacted me because I wrote an article

01:32:30.529 --> 01:32:35.250
that was a one -page analysis of all the research

01:32:35.250 --> 01:32:37.390
on the antiviral properties of mushrooms in scientific

01:32:37.390 --> 01:32:39.789
literature. I wrote this article. I published

01:32:39.789 --> 01:32:42.279
it in a peer -reviewed journal. bioterrorism

01:32:42.279 --> 01:32:44.159
became the front and center of concern of the

01:32:44.159 --> 01:32:47.420
U .S. Defense Department. A group of virologists

01:32:47.420 --> 01:32:51.579
saw my article, and they got funded by Dick Cheney

01:32:51.579 --> 01:32:54.979
and George Bush. And I want to say thank you,

01:32:55.000 --> 01:32:58.180
ironically, to those two, because they funded

01:32:58.180 --> 01:33:00.600
the BioShield. It's called Project Biodefense.

01:33:00.899 --> 01:33:02.720
And they funded it with several billion dollars.

01:33:02.979 --> 01:33:04.939
And they contacted me because I knew I had this

01:33:04.939 --> 01:33:07.960
large library of about 700 strains of mushrooms

01:33:07.960 --> 01:33:10.180
in our culture library. We have a company of

01:33:10.180 --> 01:33:16.039
70. eight great employees. And we had this large

01:33:16.039 --> 01:33:18.760
library. So they said, we want to test your library

01:33:18.760 --> 01:33:21.140
based on this article that you've written showing

01:33:21.140 --> 01:33:23.619
there are antiviral properties in some mushrooms.

01:33:23.739 --> 01:33:25.939
You have a lot of them. Let's test your library

01:33:25.939 --> 01:33:29.300
to see if you have antiviral properties. So great.

01:33:29.500 --> 01:33:32.279
So I started making extracts of mushrooms, the

01:33:32.279 --> 01:33:34.460
fruit bodies, the mycelium, the little filamentous

01:33:34.460 --> 01:33:36.859
fuzzy stuff that gives rise to mushrooms. And

01:33:36.859 --> 01:33:40.399
I sent off 100 extracts at a time, all coded

01:33:40.399 --> 01:33:44.140
with alphanumeric codes. So the government didn't

01:33:44.140 --> 01:33:47.380
know what I was sending them. So I get the first

01:33:47.380 --> 01:33:49.739
reports come back, and I'm flipping through them,

01:33:49.840 --> 01:33:52.100
no activity, no activity against pox viruses,

01:33:52.159 --> 01:33:57.560
because by far the concern was smallpox. We have

01:33:57.560 --> 01:34:02.180
no immunological defense against it. After 1974,

01:34:02.600 --> 01:34:04.979
they stopped immunizing. Do you have a smallpox

01:34:04.979 --> 01:34:07.039
vaccination on your arm? Yeah. So you're probably

01:34:07.039 --> 01:34:09.899
one of the last ones that were getting it. So

01:34:09.899 --> 01:34:12.060
I'm going through and I come to sample 78. It's

01:34:12.060 --> 01:34:15.079
at high activity. Whoa. You know, sample 81,

01:34:15.380 --> 01:34:17.760
high activity. Whoa. I got really excited. I

01:34:17.760 --> 01:34:19.920
looked at my notebook, what the codes were, and

01:34:19.920 --> 01:34:22.260
it was from this mushroom called agaricon that

01:34:22.260 --> 01:34:24.699
grows exclusively in the old growth forests of

01:34:24.699 --> 01:34:27.800
the Pacific Northwest. This is the longest living

01:34:27.800 --> 01:34:31.260
mushroom in North America. It's a perennial polypore.

01:34:31.380 --> 01:34:33.319
It looks like a giant beehive by coincidence,

01:34:33.619 --> 01:34:35.859
you know, up on a tree. So you can get a picture

01:34:35.859 --> 01:34:40.600
of that, Jamie? And so agaricon, A -G -A -R -I

01:34:40.600 --> 01:34:43.659
-K -O -N. And so I got real excited. And so I

01:34:43.659 --> 01:34:46.380
was given a contact person because he had one

01:34:46.380 --> 01:34:48.020
point of contact with the U .S. Defense Department,

01:34:48.260 --> 01:34:50.600
a physician. And I called him up saying, these

01:34:50.600 --> 01:34:54.180
research results are wonderful. He goes, what

01:34:54.180 --> 01:34:56.439
research results? I go, Federal Express just

01:34:56.439 --> 01:34:59.039
delivered me this whole dossier on the first

01:34:59.039 --> 01:35:02.319
hundred samples. Wow, look at that. And he goes,

01:35:02.340 --> 01:35:05.600
you're not supposed to get those. I am. I said,

01:35:05.619 --> 01:35:08.600
well, I'll photocopy and send them to you. So

01:35:08.600 --> 01:35:12.539
he didn't think that was too funny. But the U

01:35:12.539 --> 01:35:14.779
.S. government sometimes is not very well organized.

01:35:15.180 --> 01:35:16.739
The left hand doesn't talk to the right hand.

01:35:18.619 --> 01:35:20.680
We got these research results. That's crazy.

01:35:20.840 --> 01:35:23.640
That looks like a stick up a dude's butt. This

01:35:23.640 --> 01:35:27.819
one is particularly unusual because it was attached

01:35:27.819 --> 01:35:30.520
to an upper branch. It fell through the air.

01:35:30.619 --> 01:35:32.800
It hit the other branch. It teeter -tottered.

01:35:33.100 --> 01:35:35.840
And then it re -grew its mycelium and connected

01:35:35.840 --> 01:35:37.659
back into the mother mycelium inside the tree.

01:35:37.739 --> 01:35:41.439
And then it grew two legs. Whoa! This was first

01:35:41.439 --> 01:35:45.720
described by Diascorides in 65 A .D. as elixirium

01:35:45.720 --> 01:35:48.720
ad longum vitam, the elixir of long life. So

01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:51.420
this has been used in Greek pharmacopoeia for

01:35:51.420 --> 01:35:54.220
thousands of years. So please get back to your

01:35:54.220 --> 01:35:56.119
story. Sorry for the interruption. No, it's fine.

01:35:56.199 --> 01:36:02.699
So anyhow, I'm up in Canada, and one of my managers

01:36:02.699 --> 01:36:05.260
calls me up and says, Paul, there's a helicopter

01:36:05.260 --> 01:36:09.100
over the laboratories. I go, no big deal. Helicopters

01:36:09.100 --> 01:36:11.300
come and go. He goes, no, it's really close.

01:36:11.479 --> 01:36:13.800
And I said, how close? He goes, listen. Chomp,

01:36:13.859 --> 01:36:15.800
chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp. I go,

01:36:15.859 --> 01:36:17.579
whoa, that's really close. I go, what are the

01:36:17.579 --> 01:36:19.159
numbers on the back of the helicopter? And he

01:36:19.159 --> 01:36:21.399
goes, there are no numbers. It's a Black Hawk

01:36:21.399 --> 01:36:25.119
helicopter. And I went, oh, my gosh. Now, just

01:36:25.119 --> 01:36:28.180
because this is very new in the program, because

01:36:28.180 --> 01:36:32.300
when you have an antidote to a weapon, then it

01:36:32.300 --> 01:36:35.069
can be weaponized by terrorists. So they didn't

01:36:35.069 --> 01:36:36.850
know who – not everybody in the government knew

01:36:36.850 --> 01:36:38.750
who I was. Even though I was working with Project

01:36:38.750 --> 01:36:42.810
Biodefense, I was still sort of an unknown entity.

01:36:43.229 --> 01:36:47.170
And I filed a patent application on this. And

01:36:47.170 --> 01:36:49.909
so I told my manager, OK, shut down the business.

01:36:50.109 --> 01:36:53.010
Give everybody cultures of this mushroom, which

01:36:53.010 --> 01:36:55.109
was a garricon. I don't want to know who has

01:36:55.109 --> 01:36:56.970
them. Shut down the business. Everyone spread.

01:36:57.329 --> 01:36:59.409
So we decentralized ourselves at our target.

01:36:59.489 --> 01:37:01.289
But hold on. Let me stop you right there. So

01:37:01.289 --> 01:37:03.510
you're in Canada. I'm in Canada. Your lab is

01:37:03.510 --> 01:37:05.470
where? In the United States. Okay. In Washington

01:37:05.470 --> 01:37:07.909
State. And the helicopters are flying over your

01:37:07.909 --> 01:37:11.470
lab. What happens then? Well, they were spooking

01:37:11.470 --> 01:37:12.850
us. They were doing it on purpose. They were

01:37:12.850 --> 01:37:14.550
doing it on purpose. They were hovering. To let

01:37:14.550 --> 01:37:16.270
you know they're there. I don't know what they

01:37:16.270 --> 01:37:17.890
were doing. I mean, they're at treetop level

01:37:17.890 --> 01:37:20.369
right over the frigging laboratory. Right. So

01:37:20.369 --> 01:37:22.529
I had everyone go in their car. I asked everyone

01:37:22.529 --> 01:37:24.189
to go in their car, shut down the business immediately,

01:37:24.390 --> 01:37:27.369
and decentralize us as a target. So later on,

01:37:27.430 --> 01:37:30.340
when I came back, I called my... People in the

01:37:30.340 --> 01:37:32.699
Defense Department saying, what the hell's going

01:37:32.699 --> 01:37:35.460
on here? And they go, oh, geez, you know, sometimes

01:37:35.460 --> 01:37:37.260
the left hand doesn't talk to the right. We're

01:37:37.260 --> 01:37:41.199
sorry. So eventually. So how did they find out

01:37:41.199 --> 01:37:42.979
that just from your patent filing? Well, the

01:37:42.979 --> 01:37:45.380
patent, I filed the patent and it disappeared.

01:37:45.960 --> 01:37:48.119
Most patent applications, when you file them,

01:37:48.180 --> 01:37:51.159
show up on the U .S. patent homepage within a

01:37:51.159 --> 01:37:54.640
year or two. I filed this patent and four or

01:37:54.640 --> 01:37:56.720
five years later, it still had not been published.

01:37:57.380 --> 01:37:59.460
So I get a hold of my patent attorney who gets

01:37:59.460 --> 01:38:02.159
a hold of the patent office, and the U .S. Department

01:38:02.159 --> 01:38:06.060
of Defense considered it to be a national security.

01:38:06.479 --> 01:38:09.359
So they quarantined my patent, took it out of

01:38:09.359 --> 01:38:14.220
the patent office, so it could not be seen by

01:38:14.220 --> 01:38:15.899
potential terrorists because then it could have

01:38:15.899 --> 01:38:20.689
an antidote to smallpox. I had to do an intergovernmental

01:38:20.689 --> 01:38:25.489
agency trace to recall the patent from DOD that

01:38:25.489 --> 01:38:27.689
meetings they allowed to be released because

01:38:27.689 --> 01:38:30.649
it was a natural product. And so the patent then

01:38:30.649 --> 01:38:33.430
was put back into the patent application queue,

01:38:33.609 --> 01:38:37.630
and it was approved in 2013. I filed it in 2004.

01:38:39.920 --> 01:38:42.020
We have now done work at the University of Mississippi

01:38:42.020 --> 01:38:44.539
School of Pharmacy. We've isolated two novel

01:38:44.539 --> 01:38:47.859
anti -smallpox molecules. We also have done work

01:38:47.859 --> 01:38:50.039
at the Tuberculosis Research Institute with Dr.

01:38:50.180 --> 01:38:52.020
Scott Franzblau and University of Illinois at

01:38:52.020 --> 01:38:54.659
Chicago. We've identified a new anti -tuberculosis

01:38:54.659 --> 01:38:58.920
molecule. Agaricon in Dioscorides' time in Greek

01:38:58.920 --> 01:39:01.680
culture was used for treating consumption, later

01:39:01.680 --> 01:39:04.039
thought to be known as tuberculosis. We have

01:39:04.039 --> 01:39:06.380
found that extracts of this mushroom are duly

01:39:06.380 --> 01:39:09.600
active against bacteria and viruses. Most people

01:39:09.600 --> 01:39:12.420
who die from viral pneumonia actually die from

01:39:12.420 --> 01:39:14.840
bacterial pneumonia. They get a viral infection.

01:39:15.140 --> 01:39:18.680
Their immune system over -amps. And as a response,

01:39:18.920 --> 01:39:22.300
lungs get flooded with liquid, bacteria set up,

01:39:22.380 --> 01:39:24.319
and bacterial pneumonia usually kills people.

01:39:25.020 --> 01:39:27.800
who actually get a flu virus. They die from bacterial

01:39:27.800 --> 01:39:30.079
pneumonia. So to find a natural product that's

01:39:30.079 --> 01:39:32.260
duly active against viruses and bacteria is medically

01:39:32.260 --> 01:39:34.220
significant. So it's a good argument for natural

01:39:34.220 --> 01:39:37.180
products because you have a consortium of protective

01:39:37.180 --> 01:39:39.899
agents that are living in the soup of this extract

01:39:39.899 --> 01:39:43.859
that can help protect you. So this has now led

01:39:43.859 --> 01:39:48.359
on to our discovering molecules active against

01:39:48.359 --> 01:39:53.409
HPV, the human papillomavirus. 70 % or more of

01:39:53.409 --> 01:39:57.229
women have HPV. That's a very controversial vaccine,

01:39:57.310 --> 01:40:00.630
apparently. It's very dangerous. Well, I'm not

01:40:00.630 --> 01:40:03.130
anti -vaccination. No, you're not either. But

01:40:03.130 --> 01:40:05.369
I'm curious why they don't recommend the vaccine

01:40:05.369 --> 01:40:09.890
after the age of 24. I can't wrap my mind around

01:40:09.890 --> 01:40:11.050
that. I think they're just trying to prevent

01:40:11.050 --> 01:40:14.239
infection from sexually active kids. Well, you're

01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:16.560
sexually active after the age of 24, so why wouldn't

01:40:16.560 --> 01:40:17.899
they? Right, but they're sexually active before

01:40:17.899 --> 01:40:20.939
then. But if you didn't have the infection before

01:40:20.939 --> 01:40:23.800
24 and you're still active at the age of 24,

01:40:23.939 --> 01:40:26.319
why wouldn't they recommend the vaccination after

01:40:26.319 --> 01:40:28.279
the age of 24? Maybe there's a good medical reason.

01:40:28.279 --> 01:40:29.800
Oh, they don't recommend it post -24? Is that

01:40:29.800 --> 01:40:31.399
what you're saying? Post -24. Oh, so post -24

01:40:31.399 --> 01:40:32.840
they don't recommend it because they think maybe

01:40:32.840 --> 01:40:35.029
you already have it? I don't know the answer

01:40:35.029 --> 01:40:37.090
to that. That's bizarre. I've never been able

01:40:37.090 --> 01:40:38.850
to get someone to explain to me why it's the

01:40:38.850 --> 01:40:41.470
case. But mushrooms can suppress the expression

01:40:41.470 --> 01:40:43.649
of this? Is that what you're saying? The ingredients

01:40:43.649 --> 01:40:46.590
within the mushrooms, we have found five molecules

01:40:46.590 --> 01:40:50.149
authenticated by NIH virology as being potently

01:40:50.149 --> 01:40:54.149
active against HPV. Which mushrooms? All the

01:40:54.149 --> 01:41:00.090
polypores that I have been talking about, Reishi,

01:41:00.130 --> 01:41:05.649
Garakon, Amadou. are likely, I can't say de facto

01:41:05.649 --> 01:41:08.550
all of them, to have varying amounts of these

01:41:08.550 --> 01:41:10.970
constituents. So these mushroom extracts are

01:41:10.970 --> 01:41:16.069
a huge consortium of antiviral and antibacterial

01:41:16.069 --> 01:41:18.369
compounds. Now, as I mentioned, there's maybe

01:41:18.369 --> 01:41:22.550
5 million species of fungi. There's about 150

01:41:22.550 --> 01:41:25.609
,000 species of mushrooms. We've identified around

01:41:25.609 --> 01:41:30.449
14 ,000. So thinking just from experiential evidence,

01:41:31.149 --> 01:41:33.229
over thousands of years of human experimentation.

01:41:33.630 --> 01:41:36.670
It'd be like you went into a library and there's

01:41:36.670 --> 01:41:40.270
14 ,000 books in your library, 14 ,000 species.

01:41:40.670 --> 01:41:43.369
Our ancestors started selecting each of these

01:41:43.369 --> 01:41:45.689
species and testing them. We've narrowed the

01:41:45.689 --> 01:41:49.350
field down to about 200 species, of which 50

01:41:49.350 --> 01:41:53.090
species are superstars that have no adverse effects

01:41:53.090 --> 01:41:56.560
to human ingestion. have been used for a very

01:41:56.560 --> 01:42:00.039
long period of time. And within that set of 50

01:42:00.039 --> 01:42:02.579
species, we're finding these mushrooms which

01:42:02.579 --> 01:42:06.800
have tremendous potential health benefit. So

01:42:06.800 --> 01:42:11.739
this is why I'm so excited in the field of mycology

01:42:11.739 --> 01:42:14.840
is we have translational science. We have applied

01:42:14.840 --> 01:42:20.319
mycology. And I think based on what we've discovered,

01:42:20.829 --> 01:42:23.470
we can make the argument that we should save

01:42:23.470 --> 01:42:25.750
the old growth forest as a matter of national

01:42:25.750 --> 01:42:29.810
defense. Our fungal genomes are essential for

01:42:29.810 --> 01:42:32.729
our future and present survival. The more we

01:42:32.729 --> 01:42:35.770
eliminate these landscapes of biodiversity, the

01:42:35.770 --> 01:42:38.409
more we're losing potential agents that can fight

01:42:38.409 --> 01:42:41.850
disease. And so this is something that... I think

01:42:41.850 --> 01:42:44.510
we can build a bridge between conservatives and

01:42:44.510 --> 01:42:47.109
liberals because Osama bin Laden didn't have

01:42:47.109 --> 01:42:50.229
access to an old -growth forest. We did, and

01:42:50.229 --> 01:42:53.850
we do. And I think this is really just indicative

01:42:53.850 --> 01:42:57.170
of many other things that we can discover if

01:42:57.170 --> 01:43:00.609
we pay attention to the vast genomic resources

01:43:00.609 --> 01:43:02.789
we have and the biodiversity of the ecosystems

01:43:02.789 --> 01:43:06.130
that are still intact. Now, do you recommend

01:43:06.130 --> 01:43:08.869
for personal consumption any particular mushrooms,

01:43:09.189 --> 01:43:14.489
any particular supplements? In terms of recommendations

01:43:14.489 --> 01:43:18.250
for gourmet mushrooms, I can make those. In terms

01:43:18.250 --> 01:43:20.130
of recommendations for medicinal mushrooms, I

01:43:20.130 --> 01:43:22.630
cannot make recommendations. I'm legally tied

01:43:22.630 --> 01:43:26.390
by the FDA. I cannot make recommendations. Can

01:43:26.390 --> 01:43:29.409
you recommend a website that perhaps would recommend?

01:43:31.229 --> 01:43:34.470
Well, I do recommend eating gourmet mushrooms

01:43:34.470 --> 01:43:37.409
for just as food. Which ones do you consume?

01:43:37.810 --> 01:43:41.029
Shiitake, lion's mane, maitake. And reishi and

01:43:41.029 --> 01:43:44.149
chaga. And these all have medical benefits as

01:43:44.149 --> 01:43:46.229
well? I don't know the difference between a gourmet

01:43:46.229 --> 01:43:48.609
and a medicinal mushroom anymore. They're just

01:43:48.609 --> 01:43:50.869
mushrooms. Yeah, all gourmet mushrooms are medicinal

01:43:50.869 --> 01:43:53.130
mushrooms. Really? So shiitake mushrooms are

01:43:53.130 --> 01:43:57.369
medicinal? Shiitake mushrooms are very, very

01:43:57.369 --> 01:44:01.949
medicinal. The big stars right now by far are

01:44:01.949 --> 01:44:06.310
reishi, chaga, and lion's mane. What about portobello?

01:44:06.409 --> 01:44:07.989
They taste too good. They can't be that good

01:44:07.989 --> 01:44:11.489
for you. Portobellos have a problem. I knew it.

01:44:12.909 --> 01:44:16.909
All mushrooms should be cooked. And portobellos

01:44:16.909 --> 01:44:19.909
in particular should be cooked at high temperatures.

01:44:20.369 --> 01:44:24.149
Why? There is an unfortunate group of compound

01:44:24.149 --> 01:44:29.350
called agaritines. Agaritines are hydrazines

01:44:29.350 --> 01:44:33.609
that are heat unstable. So the good news is you

01:44:33.609 --> 01:44:35.949
should cook them. And if you cook them well,

01:44:36.090 --> 01:44:39.409
then... Those mushrooms are not a problem. If

01:44:39.409 --> 01:44:42.069
you don't cook them well, then these hydrazines

01:44:42.069 --> 01:44:46.630
are potentially problematic. Now, nature is a

01:44:46.630 --> 01:44:48.649
numbers game. So there are beneficial compounds

01:44:48.649 --> 01:44:52.569
that in some balance may outweigh the negative

01:44:52.569 --> 01:44:55.550
effects of the hydrazines, the agaritines in

01:44:55.550 --> 01:44:57.930
these mushrooms. But that jury is still out,

01:44:57.970 --> 01:45:00.270
so to speak. What are the negative benefits or

01:45:00.270 --> 01:45:04.270
the negative effects of this? This is an explosive.

01:45:06.600 --> 01:45:10.880
area of conversation and it puts my life in danger.

01:45:10.960 --> 01:45:13.659
So I reserve the right not to answer your question.

01:45:14.000 --> 01:45:18.159
Whoa. I didn't expect that. It puts your life

01:45:18.159 --> 01:45:19.979
in danger talking about portobello mushrooms?

01:45:22.220 --> 01:45:25.079
He's looking at me silently. I will respectfully

01:45:25.079 --> 01:45:28.539
move on. Thank you. So anybody who's interested,

01:45:28.659 --> 01:45:32.680
just... Google that and get back to me. You know

01:45:32.680 --> 01:45:35.180
what? Next, I'm going to have a guy who is the

01:45:35.180 --> 01:45:38.199
same height as Paul, and he's going to have a

01:45:38.199 --> 01:45:40.539
mask on, and we're going to have some sort of

01:45:40.539 --> 01:45:44.399
electric box that distorts his voice. No, but

01:45:44.399 --> 01:45:47.079
the good news— I can tell you the story. There's

01:45:47.079 --> 01:45:49.239
lots of mushrooms that have tremendous benefit.

01:45:49.770 --> 01:45:52.369
And there are compounds inside of portobello

01:45:52.369 --> 01:45:55.029
mushrooms that are very beneficial. And, in fact,

01:45:55.109 --> 01:45:58.430
there is a positive study with some breast cancer

01:45:58.430 --> 01:46:01.090
patients, a breast cancer study, showing that

01:46:01.090 --> 01:46:05.380
button mushrooms can confer benefits. There is

01:46:05.380 --> 01:46:09.260
that. We were funded by NIH with $2 .2 million

01:46:09.260 --> 01:46:11.279
for a breast cancer clinical study on turkey

01:46:11.279 --> 01:46:14.359
tail mushrooms. And turkey tail mushrooms are

01:46:14.359 --> 01:46:17.479
fantastic as adjuncts to conventional therapy.

01:46:18.699 --> 01:46:22.039
The clinical study that was conducted, funded

01:46:22.039 --> 01:46:25.520
by NIH and the University of Minnesota Medical

01:46:25.520 --> 01:46:28.239
School and Vistier Medical College, showed a

01:46:28.239 --> 01:46:31.319
dose -response curve, specifically in supporting

01:46:31.319 --> 01:46:34.260
the immune system by taking turkey tail mushrooms.

01:46:34.380 --> 01:46:36.520
And the more you took, the more benefit there

01:46:36.520 --> 01:46:40.239
was. I have a TED -Med talk that's very popular

01:46:40.239 --> 01:46:44.199
in front of 800 physicians where my mother, who

01:46:44.199 --> 01:46:46.399
was challenged with advanced stage 4 breast cancer,

01:46:46.520 --> 01:46:51.819
who is now almost 93 years of age, she had advanced

01:46:51.819 --> 01:46:54.659
stage 4 breast cancer when she was 84 years of

01:46:54.659 --> 01:46:58.340
age, given less than a few months to live. and

01:46:58.340 --> 01:47:00.939
she had metastasized tumors all over her body.

01:47:00.979 --> 01:47:04.140
Her breast was erupting with a very, very bad

01:47:04.140 --> 01:47:08.260
carcinoma, and she is alive, well, and fully

01:47:08.260 --> 01:47:13.550
recovered today. She had a chemotherapy using

01:47:13.550 --> 01:47:16.850
Herceptin and a little short time Taxol. She

01:47:16.850 --> 01:47:19.289
had a very bad reaction to Taxol. But there's

01:47:19.289 --> 01:47:20.949
a scientific article that's now been published

01:47:20.949 --> 01:47:23.630
showing that turkey tail mushroom constituents

01:47:23.630 --> 01:47:27.710
help conventional therapies like chemotherapy

01:47:27.710 --> 01:47:30.170
with Herceptin and making Herceptin work better.

01:47:30.510 --> 01:47:33.789
So there's a nice blending of integrative medicine

01:47:33.789 --> 01:47:36.409
with using natural products with conventional

01:47:36.409 --> 01:47:40.069
medicine. I will never be safe. that you should

01:47:40.069 --> 01:47:43.069
not consult a physician. I will never say that

01:47:43.069 --> 01:47:44.989
you should not use conventional medicine. You

01:47:44.989 --> 01:47:47.489
should. It's the state of the art of science

01:47:47.489 --> 01:47:50.050
is right there. But the state of the arts of

01:47:50.050 --> 01:47:52.789
science is that we can upregulate immunity with

01:47:52.789 --> 01:47:55.229
these mushrooms. And that's your front line of

01:47:55.229 --> 01:47:57.890
defense. And then the other conventional therapies

01:47:57.890 --> 01:48:01.130
that are being practiced now combine very, very

01:48:01.130 --> 01:48:03.590
nicely, according to many physicians and reports

01:48:03.590 --> 01:48:08.350
showing that the combination of turkey tail mushrooms

01:48:08.430 --> 01:48:10.949
in combination with conventional therapy can

01:48:10.949 --> 01:48:13.729
have a significant difference in improving your

01:48:13.729 --> 01:48:16.689
immunological defense. No, I absolutely agree

01:48:16.689 --> 01:48:20.689
with you that conventional treatments are state

01:48:20.689 --> 01:48:22.329
-of -the -art, and this is state -of -the -art

01:48:22.329 --> 01:48:24.310
science when you're talking about dealing with

01:48:24.310 --> 01:48:26.170
cancer. You should deal with oncologists that

01:48:26.170 --> 01:48:30.130
are at the cutting edge. But they're not state

01:48:30.130 --> 01:48:31.989
of the art when it comes to the preventing of

01:48:31.989 --> 01:48:34.890
these things. And that's a giant issue that a

01:48:34.890 --> 01:48:36.590
lot of people have when it comes to nutrition,

01:48:36.930 --> 01:48:41.229
lifestyle, mitigating stress, all the various

01:48:41.229 --> 01:48:43.909
factors that contribute to a bunch of different

01:48:43.909 --> 01:48:46.989
health ailments. Do you think that mushrooms

01:48:46.989 --> 01:48:50.750
could also play a factor in that as well? Absolutely.

01:48:51.489 --> 01:48:54.880
Absolutely. There's a great... epidemiological

01:48:54.880 --> 01:48:57.880
study that came out of Japan. And Dr. Ikikawa

01:48:57.880 --> 01:49:01.260
was an epidemiologist that worked for the National

01:49:01.260 --> 01:49:06.500
Cancer Center in Tokyo. And they noticed in surveying

01:49:06.500 --> 01:49:11.039
people in Japan in the 1960s, early 1970s, there

01:49:11.039 --> 01:49:13.810
was a dearth, a drop. and the overall cancer

01:49:13.810 --> 01:49:16.550
rate in this one population in Nagano Prefecture

01:49:16.550 --> 01:49:19.869
in Japan. So he was sent there by the National

01:49:19.869 --> 01:49:22.369
Cancer Center of Tokyo, by the government, to

01:49:22.369 --> 01:49:24.329
say, what are these people doing in this one

01:49:24.329 --> 01:49:26.350
cluster of villages where they have statistically

01:49:26.350 --> 01:49:28.970
significant less cancer rates? We're talking

01:49:28.970 --> 01:49:31.770
about 30 % less than the national average. And

01:49:31.770 --> 01:49:33.789
after an exhaustive study, he found that they

01:49:33.789 --> 01:49:36.729
were eating enoki mushrooms, a lot of them, because

01:49:36.729 --> 01:49:38.609
the enoki mushrooms are really thin ones, they

01:49:38.609 --> 01:49:39.949
have really tall stems, you can buy them in the

01:49:39.949 --> 01:49:42.989
store. Well, there's a big... farming centers

01:49:42.989 --> 01:49:46.350
for enoki mushrooms there. And then the blemished

01:49:46.350 --> 01:49:48.930
ones, as cultivators know, you don't sell to

01:49:48.930 --> 01:49:50.869
the public. The ones that have little spots on

01:49:50.869 --> 01:49:53.430
them are deformed, but they're given to the workers.

01:49:53.649 --> 01:49:55.909
And so their workers and then their families

01:49:55.909 --> 01:49:58.229
eat a higher per capita consumption of enoki

01:49:58.229 --> 01:50:00.350
mushrooms than the other residents of Japan.

01:50:00.649 --> 01:50:04.619
So they found that Specifically, the consumption

01:50:04.619 --> 01:50:08.420
of enoki mushrooms resulted in a reduction of

01:50:08.420 --> 01:50:11.760
cancer across the board of all cancers. Statistically

01:50:11.760 --> 01:50:15.020
significant. I think over 220 ,000 people in

01:50:15.020 --> 01:50:17.420
this epidemiological survey. I've written about

01:50:17.420 --> 01:50:20.159
10 articles for the Huffington Post. And you

01:50:20.159 --> 01:50:22.220
can Google Stamets, Huffington Post, and enoki

01:50:22.220 --> 01:50:24.359
mushrooms and see all the citations on enoki

01:50:24.359 --> 01:50:28.760
mushrooms, on lion's mane, on agaricon, all these

01:50:28.760 --> 01:50:30.960
mushrooms I'm talking about. They're all peer

01:50:30.960 --> 01:50:34.720
-reviewed. They're all very short articles, but

01:50:34.720 --> 01:50:36.479
they summarize a lot of the research that I'm

01:50:36.479 --> 01:50:40.399
talking about. That's amazing. What do you know

01:50:40.399 --> 01:50:43.850
about the cordyceps mushroom? I know a fair amount

01:50:43.850 --> 01:50:47.250
about cordyceps. Yeah. I'm fascinated for two

01:50:47.250 --> 01:50:50.390
reasons. One, because of a supplement that I

01:50:50.390 --> 01:50:52.810
take that my company makes called Shroom Tech

01:50:52.810 --> 01:50:55.829
Sport. Sorry for the name. My apologies in advance.

01:50:56.510 --> 01:50:59.609
But it's based on athletic performance. But the

01:50:59.609 --> 01:51:04.010
Shroom Tech is based on the cordyceps and B12

01:51:04.010 --> 01:51:05.869
and a bunch of different adaptogens. And the

01:51:05.869 --> 01:51:08.590
idea being that when you take that, it benefits

01:51:08.590 --> 01:51:11.250
athletic performance, benefits endurance and

01:51:11.250 --> 01:51:14.890
oxygen. And apparently they discovered this from

01:51:14.890 --> 01:51:18.510
– it's a weird one because they grow it on a

01:51:18.510 --> 01:51:21.810
caterpillar. Do you know about all that? Yeah.

01:51:22.770 --> 01:51:24.770
Cordyceps is now – it's been split into several

01:51:24.770 --> 01:51:26.750
different genera. Yeah, that's what I was going

01:51:26.750 --> 01:51:28.649
to bring up. The other one is the one that explodes

01:51:28.649 --> 01:51:33.279
on ants. Yeah, there's the – There's Cordyceps

01:51:33.279 --> 01:51:37.520
sinensis, now known as Ophiocordyceps sinensis.

01:51:38.539 --> 01:51:41.739
Cordyceps has about 500 species in it. It's been

01:51:41.739 --> 01:51:44.880
a very complicated taxonomy because when researchers

01:51:44.880 --> 01:51:48.140
would go in the Himalayas and they find these

01:51:48.140 --> 01:51:49.840
caterpillars with the Cordyceps mushrooms coming

01:51:49.840 --> 01:51:53.949
out of it. Very good scientists. And they did

01:51:53.949 --> 01:51:55.789
just what I would do. They would take it in the

01:51:55.789 --> 01:51:57.430
laboratory. They would break it open and take

01:51:57.430 --> 01:51:59.289
a piece of tissue from the inside. It's called

01:51:59.289 --> 01:52:01.850
cloning. So you just capture the genetic material.

01:52:01.890 --> 01:52:05.130
You grow out the culture. Very confusing because

01:52:05.130 --> 01:52:07.489
there is five different fungi. They're called

01:52:07.489 --> 01:52:10.819
anamorphs. Cordyceps is a... dimorphic fungus.

01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:13.159
What that means is it has two forms. It's got

01:52:13.159 --> 01:52:16.079
a mold state and it's got a mushroom state. The

01:52:16.079 --> 01:52:17.960
mushroom state comes up like a little club, looks

01:52:17.960 --> 01:52:20.260
like your finger, like an orange little finger

01:52:20.260 --> 01:52:21.880
coming up out of the ground. So you can find

01:52:21.880 --> 01:52:25.880
that, Jamie. Whoa, there it is. So is this an

01:52:25.880 --> 01:52:29.970
expired caterpillar? I can't actually see the

01:52:29.970 --> 01:52:31.970
species there, but it looks like they're beetles.

01:52:32.050 --> 01:52:33.270
It's hard to tell. There's a couple of things

01:52:33.270 --> 01:52:35.609
here. So there's a number of cordyceps species.

01:52:36.670 --> 01:52:41.649
So there was a lot of scientific dispute on what

01:52:41.649 --> 01:52:43.989
the true anamorph. Now, it's two sides of the

01:52:43.989 --> 01:52:46.970
same coin. You see the cordyceps, and then you

01:52:46.970 --> 01:52:49.949
clone it, and you get this mold growing, and

01:52:49.949 --> 01:52:52.649
then people will grow up the mold. Well, now

01:52:52.649 --> 01:52:55.590
we know there are several species of molds that

01:52:55.590 --> 01:52:58.560
are growing inside the caterpillar. So the true

01:52:58.560 --> 01:53:02.460
cordyceps sinensis is now identified as hirsutella

01:53:02.460 --> 01:53:07.779
sinensis. That's the true one. Bacillomyces and

01:53:07.779 --> 01:53:09.779
metarhizium and all these other ones are not

01:53:09.779 --> 01:53:13.560
considered to be the true organism. They're chasing.

01:53:14.479 --> 01:53:18.000
The other cordyceps mold inside of the mushroom.

01:53:18.239 --> 01:53:20.859
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're freaking me out,

01:53:21.000 --> 01:53:24.699
Paul. I can't keep up with you, man. This is

01:53:24.699 --> 01:53:26.199
going to be one that I'm going to go over many,

01:53:26.300 --> 01:53:27.899
many, many, many, many times. It's a polyculture.

01:53:28.000 --> 01:53:30.260
Okay, polyculture. It's a polyculture of several

01:53:30.260 --> 01:53:32.460
different entomopathogenic fungi. These are fungi

01:53:32.460 --> 01:53:36.060
that kill insects. So, I mean, this is very disruptive

01:53:36.060 --> 01:53:38.800
because, oh, the FDA and the labeling and how

01:53:38.800 --> 01:53:41.140
do you label this and what do you do and who's

01:53:41.140 --> 01:53:43.619
right and who's wrong and how do you get the

01:53:43.619 --> 01:53:45.659
label? to conform to the current taxonomy based

01:53:45.659 --> 01:53:49.920
on DNA research. The good news is, based on the

01:53:49.920 --> 01:53:53.760
best of my knowledge, several of these companies

01:53:53.760 --> 01:53:55.920
that are selling these cordyceps, the anamorphs,

01:53:55.920 --> 01:53:57.939
even though they may not be the true cordyceps

01:53:57.939 --> 01:54:03.479
sinensis, those also confer benefits. So you

01:54:03.479 --> 01:54:05.699
can argue, in a sense, about different species.

01:54:05.819 --> 01:54:08.260
The problem with this is there's no less than

01:54:08.260 --> 01:54:11.979
1 ,000 peer -reviewed articles on Cordyceps sinensis.

01:54:12.520 --> 01:54:16.260
And no one, or hardly anyone, no one knows what

01:54:16.260 --> 01:54:18.479
species they were actually growing. Wow. Because

01:54:18.479 --> 01:54:20.460
we don't know which of these animals they were

01:54:20.460 --> 01:54:22.680
actually growing. Is this recent information?

01:54:22.899 --> 01:54:25.039
All very recent. All in the past four or five

01:54:25.039 --> 01:54:26.880
years, and especially in the past two years.

01:54:27.199 --> 01:54:33.149
Wow. Taxonomy is in flux. DNA, PCR amplification.

01:54:33.729 --> 01:54:35.909
And the region of DNA that they've chosen, they

01:54:35.909 --> 01:54:38.850
amplified. They are idiosyncratic to the species.

01:54:39.069 --> 01:54:41.829
Now that story has changed. Whole genome sequencing

01:54:41.829 --> 01:54:44.029
is really the only way to go about this, where

01:54:44.029 --> 01:54:48.130
they sequence the entire genome. And so there's

01:54:48.130 --> 01:54:52.189
a lot of elasticity or plasticity. And the expression

01:54:52.189 --> 01:54:55.550
of DNA. Now, going back to what we've been talking

01:54:55.550 --> 01:55:00.029
about this whole interview, epigenesis. Epigenesis

01:55:00.029 --> 01:55:03.750
is an environmental stimulus, has a selective

01:55:03.750 --> 01:55:07.909
influence on the genomic expression of the individual,

01:55:08.090 --> 01:55:11.729
the species, yourself. And so you upregulate

01:55:11.729 --> 01:55:13.810
or turn on genes that are otherwise, quote unquote,

01:55:13.989 --> 01:55:18.010
asleep. And so what we're seeing now is that.

01:55:18.589 --> 01:55:23.069
epigenetic influences can cause different DNA

01:55:23.069 --> 01:55:27.149
expressions. And so what was considered to be

01:55:27.149 --> 01:55:29.810
conformity of a species and DNA types before,

01:55:29.890 --> 01:55:32.149
like 99%, and that was thought that, oh, they're

01:55:32.149 --> 01:55:34.470
the same species, now we know that's highly inaccurate.

01:55:34.810 --> 01:55:37.970
So what was accurate a few years ago is considered

01:55:37.970 --> 01:55:40.409
to be highly inaccurate today. The science is

01:55:40.409 --> 01:55:43.149
changing very, very rapidly, and the regulatory

01:55:43.149 --> 01:55:46.720
environment cannot catch up. So it doesn't really

01:55:46.720 --> 01:55:49.520
matter except for the following. And this is

01:55:49.520 --> 01:55:52.460
I do make a recommendation here. Make sure your

01:55:52.460 --> 01:55:54.779
mushrooms or whatever products you're consuming

01:55:54.779 --> 01:55:57.939
are certified organic. And please don't buy them

01:55:57.939 --> 01:56:01.409
from China. Anyone who's been to China, I've

01:56:01.409 --> 01:56:03.590
been to China several times, the amount of massive

01:56:03.590 --> 01:56:06.529
air pollution there is horrific. And the chain

01:56:06.529 --> 01:56:08.609
of custody, as we call it, where these people

01:56:08.609 --> 01:56:10.970
are getting their mushrooms, they mix, oftentimes

01:56:10.970 --> 01:56:13.649
distributors mix suppliers, and it's a form of

01:56:13.649 --> 01:56:16.289
quote -unquote Russian roulette. We've done analyses

01:56:16.289 --> 01:56:18.729
on Chinese -sourced mushrooms, and they've had

01:56:18.729 --> 01:56:21.770
up to 2 ,200 parts per million of lead, where

01:56:21.770 --> 01:56:24.590
two or three capsules is toxic. So why would

01:56:24.590 --> 01:56:26.350
you take a medicinal mushroom that's contaminated

01:56:26.350 --> 01:56:28.069
with heavy metals and pesticides if you're trying

01:56:28.069 --> 01:56:30.170
to improve your immune system? At the same time,

01:56:30.210 --> 01:56:33.260
you're sabotaging your immune system. Getting

01:56:33.260 --> 01:56:35.520
mushrooms from clean environments is critically

01:56:35.520 --> 01:56:38.600
important. Unfortunately, because of the USDA

01:56:38.600 --> 01:56:41.119
organic program, they can borrow from the organic

01:56:41.119 --> 01:56:44.260
programs of China and still say they're certified

01:56:44.260 --> 01:56:47.119
organic. So you really need to buy U .S.-grown,

01:56:47.319 --> 01:56:50.279
certified organic mushrooms that have a clear

01:56:50.279 --> 01:56:52.819
chain of custody and hopefully one that is from

01:56:52.819 --> 01:56:55.239
a reputable supplier or scientist and not somebody

01:56:55.239 --> 01:56:57.060
who's just trying to make money. There's a lot

01:56:57.060 --> 01:56:59.020
of opportunistic companies right now who are

01:56:59.020 --> 01:57:01.420
just trying to exploit. and ride the bandwagon

01:57:01.420 --> 01:57:03.840
of the popularity of medicinal mushrooms without

01:57:03.840 --> 01:57:07.020
really having done their homework or without

01:57:07.020 --> 01:57:09.659
fully informing the public that their mushrooms

01:57:09.659 --> 01:57:11.260
are actually coming from China when they are

01:57:11.260 --> 01:57:14.289
not. What is the strain of cordyceps mushroom

01:57:14.289 --> 01:57:19.409
that erupts, that infects ants, kills them, sprouts

01:57:19.409 --> 01:57:21.850
out of them, and then explodes and infects the

01:57:21.850 --> 01:57:24.470
ants near them? And other ants will drag that

01:57:24.470 --> 01:57:26.930
ant, knowing that it's infected, deep, deep away

01:57:26.930 --> 01:57:29.590
into the forest to get it away from the colony.

01:57:29.789 --> 01:57:32.090
Just that cordyceps loidei up on the screen there.

01:57:32.250 --> 01:57:36.819
Pull that up. Yeah, Cordyceps loidei, Unilateralis

01:57:36.819 --> 01:57:38.819
is another one. A lot of these zombie movies

01:57:38.819 --> 01:57:40.600
you've been seeing have been based on Cordyceps.

01:57:41.000 --> 01:57:46.420
And actually, I was a character in Hannibal Lecter.

01:57:46.600 --> 01:57:48.979
You were? Yeah, in the series. I think it's number

01:57:48.979 --> 01:57:54.739
five. And this, I think, Elvin Stamets was this

01:57:54.739 --> 01:57:57.739
anesthesiologist. Did he give you your last name?

01:57:57.920 --> 01:57:59.579
Yeah, he was my last name. Why didn't they just

01:57:59.579 --> 01:58:02.329
call you Paul? Well, they do on Star Trek. I'm

01:58:02.329 --> 01:58:03.810
a character on Star Trek now. Yeah, I know. Yeah,

01:58:03.850 --> 01:58:05.289
and they actually call me Paul Stamets on Star

01:58:05.289 --> 01:58:09.130
Trek. How bizarre is that? So Hannibal Lecter,

01:58:09.149 --> 01:58:10.930
the series, I had all these people write me and

01:58:10.930 --> 01:58:13.350
say, oh, my gosh, you're this evil doctor who

01:58:13.350 --> 01:58:17.890
overdoses his patients with drugs and then puts

01:58:17.890 --> 01:58:19.670
them in the backyard and then inoculates them

01:58:19.670 --> 01:58:21.289
with mushrooms, just like cordyceps, you know,

01:58:21.289 --> 01:58:22.949
coming out of the – so you could have mushrooms

01:58:22.949 --> 01:58:24.970
going in the backyard. And some of the Star Trek

01:58:24.970 --> 01:58:29.130
people called me up in August of 2016. I'm talking

01:58:29.130 --> 01:58:31.989
to them. CBS set it up. They have to talk to

01:58:31.989 --> 01:58:34.890
you. They saw my TED Talk. And they said, Paul,

01:58:35.029 --> 01:58:36.630
we're the writers of the new Star Trek Discovery

01:58:36.630 --> 01:58:39.630
series. We're kind of stuck. We want to talk

01:58:39.630 --> 01:58:41.609
to you. We saw your TED Talk. We're really interested.

01:58:41.810 --> 01:58:43.210
And I go, wait a second. Are you the one who

01:58:43.210 --> 01:58:44.869
put me in Hannibal Lecter? He goes, yeah. And

01:58:44.869 --> 01:58:48.750
I go, well, let's get it right this time. So

01:58:48.750 --> 01:58:52.029
I said, OK. I said, foolishly, or maybe to my

01:58:52.029 --> 01:58:54.750
benefit, foolishly, I said, turn on your tape

01:58:54.750 --> 01:58:58.550
recorder. Give me the general idea. And let me

01:58:58.550 --> 01:59:00.670
run with it. And they said, okay, go for it.

01:59:00.689 --> 01:59:02.170
There's six of them, I guess, on the conference

01:59:02.170 --> 01:59:05.390
call. Foolishly, I said, I'm a Star Trek fan,

01:59:05.569 --> 01:59:08.109
which is not foolish, but I want no money for

01:59:08.109 --> 01:59:10.250
these ideas. I give you all my intellectual property.

01:59:10.510 --> 01:59:12.649
I want science fiction to predict science fact.

01:59:13.210 --> 01:59:15.189
The great thing about Star Trek is the flip phone

01:59:15.189 --> 01:59:17.789
and the iPad. I mean, those came out in Star

01:59:17.789 --> 01:59:20.390
Trek, and then it became reality. I said, so

01:59:20.390 --> 01:59:22.750
you have a unique opportunity here of forming

01:59:22.750 --> 01:59:26.319
our future. Let's collaborate to create a future

01:59:26.319 --> 01:59:29.779
that's better for our future generations by inspiring

01:59:29.779 --> 01:59:33.399
students and young people to get excited about

01:59:33.399 --> 01:59:36.779
the science so they can help populate the universities

01:59:36.779 --> 01:59:39.060
to create the inventions that can help save this

01:59:39.060 --> 01:59:43.399
planet that's in jeopardy. And so I ran with

01:59:43.399 --> 01:59:46.159
a Star Trek theme, and we just saw the last episode

01:59:46.159 --> 01:59:50.069
last night. And astromycologist Paul Stamets

01:59:50.069 --> 01:59:53.149
is using the mycelium spore drive. It has become

01:59:53.149 --> 01:59:55.329
– I couldn't believe it. We're watching this

01:59:55.329 --> 01:59:57.869
thing in the Star Trek. The main theme of Star

01:59:57.869 --> 02:00:00.729
Trek is based on mycelium and the concepts that

02:00:00.729 --> 02:00:02.710
I gave them. They've elaborated this, I mean,

02:00:02.770 --> 02:00:04.710
six ways of Sunday. So they've really taken it.

02:00:04.789 --> 02:00:07.550
This is some sort of a propulsion system? It's

02:00:07.550 --> 02:00:10.630
a propulsion system because in my TED Talk, I've

02:00:10.630 --> 02:00:12.050
been talking about this a long time, about networks.

02:00:12.550 --> 02:00:14.789
We have the mycelial network. We have the computer

02:00:14.789 --> 02:00:17.199
internet. We have the neurological network in

02:00:17.199 --> 02:00:19.840
our brains, and the organization of dark matter

02:00:19.840 --> 02:00:22.500
conforms to string theory. So these are three

02:00:22.500 --> 02:00:27.380
archetypes, the same archetype, the same dimensional

02:00:27.380 --> 02:00:30.220
structures stacked on top of each other. And

02:00:30.220 --> 02:00:33.500
nature builds upon its prior successes. So networks

02:00:33.500 --> 02:00:38.439
reward themselves by surviving from catastrophe.

02:00:39.520 --> 02:00:43.140
So I said, and I'm still bound by confidentiality,

02:00:43.140 --> 02:00:45.020
and there's an incredibly strict confidentiality

02:00:45.020 --> 02:00:47.100
agreement that I can only state which has been

02:00:47.100 --> 02:00:50.380
publicly displayed. But the mycelium spore allows

02:00:50.380 --> 02:00:54.819
through the internet of nature, you might say.

02:00:55.439 --> 02:00:57.739
to be able to go into hyperspace immediately

02:00:57.739 --> 02:01:01.859
by tapping into the mycelial archetype. And so

02:01:01.859 --> 02:01:04.739
astromycologist Stamets now is plugging himself

02:01:04.739 --> 02:01:08.159
into the mycelial network of the universe, and

02:01:08.159 --> 02:01:11.800
they can jump rather than using their standard

02:01:11.800 --> 02:01:14.079
hyperdrives, which you see them streaming across

02:01:14.079 --> 02:01:15.979
for hours from one part of the universe to the

02:01:15.979 --> 02:01:18.180
other. They can show up immediately and then

02:01:18.180 --> 02:01:20.720
disappear. Is this something that you think could

02:01:20.720 --> 02:01:24.359
actually be real one day? Okay, we're pushing

02:01:24.359 --> 02:01:26.260
the envelope on this one. This is pushing the

02:01:26.260 --> 02:01:28.859
envelope on this one. But if you look at the

02:01:28.859 --> 02:01:36.340
multiverse, and I've had one or two in particular

02:01:36.340 --> 02:01:40.500
multiverse experiences where time and reality

02:01:40.500 --> 02:01:45.439
has changed in a way that I cannot explain. How

02:01:45.439 --> 02:01:48.949
so? What do you mean? It's so incredibly profound

02:01:48.949 --> 02:01:52.350
that I still cannot wrap my mind around it. These

02:01:52.350 --> 02:01:54.350
are psilocybin experiences? Psilocybin experience.

02:01:54.449 --> 02:01:58.109
So I think the psilocybin experience might be

02:01:58.109 --> 02:02:00.970
one portal, and now I'm going to sound like Terrence

02:02:00.970 --> 02:02:05.210
McKenna, of entering into the multiverse. The

02:02:05.210 --> 02:02:10.300
idea that time can be bent. That there are multiple

02:02:10.300 --> 02:02:12.779
universes occurring simultaneously in different

02:02:12.779 --> 02:02:15.779
realities. And I've had one experience in particular

02:02:15.779 --> 02:02:19.760
that is just unfathomable to me. I don't know

02:02:19.760 --> 02:02:24.140
how to explain it. Give it a shot. Okay. I'll

02:02:24.140 --> 02:02:26.600
give it a shot. You've already blown my mind

02:02:26.600 --> 02:02:30.239
apart 150 times today. This is a very deeply

02:02:30.239 --> 02:02:35.880
personal experience to me. I was going to the

02:02:35.880 --> 02:02:37.659
Evergreen State College. I had a drug enforcement

02:02:37.659 --> 02:02:40.779
administration license. My brother John went

02:02:40.779 --> 02:02:45.359
to Yale University. He got a graduate scholarship

02:02:45.359 --> 02:02:47.659
in neurophysiology at the University of Washington.

02:02:48.060 --> 02:02:50.659
He came out to Washington State in Seattle. I

02:02:50.659 --> 02:02:54.279
was living in Olympia, Washington. I had a cabin

02:02:54.279 --> 02:02:57.020
up in the mountains near Darrington, Washington.

02:02:58.140 --> 02:03:00.300
Then in the summertime for three years, I set

02:03:00.300 --> 02:03:02.930
chokers. I was a logger. I really believe in

02:03:02.930 --> 02:03:04.810
the school of hard knocks and the blending of

02:03:04.810 --> 02:03:08.050
academia with blue -collar hard work. I love

02:03:08.050 --> 02:03:10.369
chopping wood. I love running a chainsaw. I love

02:03:10.369 --> 02:03:14.750
hard labor. I think. It gives my mind some respite

02:03:14.750 --> 02:03:17.869
to be able to think. So I'm in this highly academic

02:03:17.869 --> 02:03:21.149
environment. My brother John, he died unfortunately

02:03:21.149 --> 02:03:25.130
two years ago. He got me involved in mushrooms.

02:03:25.949 --> 02:03:27.930
So I'm going to segue and set the stage here,

02:03:27.970 --> 02:03:29.869
but I need another two minutes to set the stage

02:03:29.869 --> 02:03:32.989
here. I'm growing up in a small town in Ohio

02:03:32.989 --> 02:03:35.989
called Columbiana. My brother John is going to

02:03:35.989 --> 02:03:39.390
Yale. He comes back one day. And he gives me

02:03:39.390 --> 02:03:42.130
a book that he's using for his class. But he's

02:03:42.130 --> 02:03:44.390
on break. And he says, and I'm really fascinated.

02:03:44.729 --> 02:03:46.430
Now, John went to Mexico. Columbia came back

02:03:46.430 --> 02:03:48.529
with great stories of eating psilocybin mushrooms.

02:03:48.689 --> 02:03:50.649
And he's my older brother. I just idolized him.

02:03:50.989 --> 02:03:53.329
And he has a book called Alder States of Consciousness.

02:03:53.850 --> 02:03:56.029
And so I said, John, can I borrow your book?

02:03:56.170 --> 02:03:58.800
He said, sure. And I said, but Paul, I need it

02:03:58.800 --> 02:04:00.500
back. You know, after my break is over, I'm going

02:04:00.500 --> 02:04:01.899
back to college. This is part of our textbook.

02:04:02.039 --> 02:04:04.680
So I borrowed his book, Alter Studies of Consciousness.

02:04:04.720 --> 02:04:06.699
I'm just fascinated reading it, you know, about

02:04:06.699 --> 02:04:08.420
all these different ways of expanding your consciousness.

02:04:08.880 --> 02:04:12.000
I'm 14 years of age. And so my best friend, Ryan

02:04:12.000 --> 02:04:15.220
Snyder, says, Paul, can I borrow your book? We're

02:04:15.220 --> 02:04:17.979
hanging together all the time. And he goes, yeah,

02:04:18.000 --> 02:04:20.180
but I need it back. And so he borrows my book.

02:04:20.560 --> 02:04:23.319
And he doesn't return it. A day, several days

02:04:23.319 --> 02:04:25.479
pass, a week pass, two weeks pass. My brother's

02:04:25.479 --> 02:04:28.239
coming back on break. He said, I needed that

02:04:28.239 --> 02:04:32.039
book back, Paul. And I go to Ryan. I go, Ryan,

02:04:32.140 --> 02:04:34.199
I need my book. I need my book. And Ryan kept

02:04:34.199 --> 02:04:36.300
on avoiding answering the subject. And so I said,

02:04:36.340 --> 02:04:38.840
finally, give me my book. And Ryan goes, I can't

02:04:38.840 --> 02:04:41.859
give it to you, Paul. I said, why? He says, my

02:04:41.859 --> 02:04:46.539
dad burned it. I said, your dad burned my brother's

02:04:46.539 --> 02:04:50.859
book? I go. I didn't use this phrase back then.

02:04:51.000 --> 02:04:54.260
I said, oh, my God. And I have a shout out to

02:04:54.260 --> 02:04:58.000
Ryan Snyder's father that because of that event,

02:04:58.060 --> 02:05:00.600
it stimulated my interest in all the states of

02:05:00.600 --> 02:05:04.779
consciousness even more. So John goes to Yale

02:05:04.779 --> 02:05:07.760
and goes to the University of Washington. I have

02:05:07.760 --> 02:05:10.420
this DEA permit. I'm at the Evergreen State College.

02:05:10.579 --> 02:05:13.880
John calls me up. He says, Paul, I think I found

02:05:13.880 --> 02:05:16.729
some soul side mushrooms. John said, you're really

02:05:16.729 --> 02:05:18.510
smart. You've been collecting psilocybe cubensis

02:05:18.510 --> 02:05:21.229
in Colombia and Mexico. But, you know, they're

02:05:21.229 --> 02:05:23.350
much more complicated up here. And I said, let

02:05:23.350 --> 02:05:25.229
me ask you a few questions. I said, OK, John,

02:05:25.350 --> 02:05:27.189
do you take a spore print? He goes, yes. I go,

02:05:27.229 --> 02:05:30.689
is the spores purple brown? He goes, yes, they

02:05:30.689 --> 02:05:33.909
are purple brown. I go, good. OK. Now, John,

02:05:34.010 --> 02:05:36.250
does it have a separable gelatinous pellicle?

02:05:36.779 --> 02:05:38.500
And he goes, what's that? And I go, well, break

02:05:38.500 --> 02:05:40.500
the cap. These are growing on wood chips. Break

02:05:40.500 --> 02:05:43.239
the cap and separate the cap very slowly. Do

02:05:43.239 --> 02:05:45.739
you see a little skin that's translucent? And

02:05:45.739 --> 02:05:47.319
he breaks it and goes, yeah, I see that skin.

02:05:47.760 --> 02:05:49.159
I said, John, they're growing on wood chips.

02:05:49.319 --> 02:05:52.159
And he goes, yes. I go, are they turning bluish?

02:05:52.600 --> 02:05:54.399
He goes, yes, they're standing really bright

02:05:54.399 --> 02:05:58.859
blue. I go, wow. I said, John, how many did you

02:05:58.859 --> 02:06:02.850
find? He goes. You would not believe it. It's

02:06:02.850 --> 02:06:06.310
a huge amount. I said, wait. I said, but he says,

02:06:06.329 --> 02:06:08.770
Paul, they're in a very sensitive place. You

02:06:08.770 --> 02:06:11.050
better come up here right away. So I jumped in

02:06:11.050 --> 02:06:13.390
my car and I drove up from Olympia to Seattle,

02:06:13.470 --> 02:06:17.590
about 60, 70 miles. I get to his house and John's

02:06:17.590 --> 02:06:19.630
there. And I go, well, where are we going? He

02:06:19.630 --> 02:06:21.970
goes, well, we need some grocery bags, you know,

02:06:21.970 --> 02:06:25.390
and let's get on our bikes and let's go down

02:06:25.390 --> 02:06:29.189
there. I go, why all the secrecy? The problem

02:06:29.189 --> 02:06:31.609
is, well, you'll see. And it was the end of Boat

02:06:31.609 --> 02:06:34.670
Street. And right at the University of Washington,

02:06:34.869 --> 02:06:37.210
right off of University Avenue, there's Boat

02:06:37.210 --> 02:06:39.770
Street. And we get there. And right across the

02:06:39.770 --> 02:06:43.149
street is a police substation. So we're there.

02:06:43.270 --> 02:06:45.289
And it was an eruption of this mushroom. There

02:06:45.289 --> 02:06:48.270
had to be 10 ,000, 30 ,000 mushrooms. I don't

02:06:48.270 --> 02:06:50.850
know. It was about 50 feet by 30 feet. It had

02:06:50.850 --> 02:06:52.430
all been mulched with wood chips. There was an

02:06:52.430 --> 02:06:55.090
eruption that picked up. You know, trash and,

02:06:55.149 --> 02:06:57.510
you know, debris that picked up six inches was

02:06:57.510 --> 02:07:00.029
solid mushrooms or mushrooms everywhere. I've

02:07:00.029 --> 02:07:02.010
to this day never seen so many mushrooms in one

02:07:02.010 --> 02:07:04.949
concentrated area. So we waited till the police

02:07:04.949 --> 02:07:07.010
cars went away and we're kind of idling there.

02:07:07.090 --> 02:07:08.630
And then the police cars would go away from the

02:07:08.630 --> 02:07:10.289
substation. We start picking mushrooms, picking

02:07:10.289 --> 02:07:13.350
mushrooms. And we fill up a grocery bag or two.

02:07:13.489 --> 02:07:15.350
And then the other students are walking by. What

02:07:15.350 --> 02:07:16.770
are you doing? Oh, nothing. You know, and then

02:07:16.770 --> 02:07:19.550
we eventually got plenty for everybody. So it

02:07:19.550 --> 02:07:22.890
was like pretty good. Everyone's all hanging

02:07:22.890 --> 02:07:24.970
out. a little group like at the bus stop right

02:07:24.970 --> 02:07:26.949
we're not really waiting for the bus right we're

02:07:26.949 --> 02:07:28.569
waiting for the police cars to go away right

02:07:28.569 --> 02:07:30.470
and then we picked all these mushrooms so we

02:07:30.470 --> 02:07:32.409
got about you know eight or ten grocery bags

02:07:32.409 --> 02:07:34.510
full of these mushrooms how bizarre it turned

02:07:34.510 --> 02:07:36.310
out to be a new species called psilocybe stuntii

02:07:36.310 --> 02:07:40.539
named after the new species new species New as

02:07:40.539 --> 02:07:42.560
in hadn't been discovered before you guys picked

02:07:42.560 --> 02:07:43.680
them? Had never been described in scientific

02:07:43.680 --> 02:07:46.420
literature before. So you picked a mushroom that

02:07:46.420 --> 02:07:49.199
no one knew existed before or hadn't been— Hadn't

02:07:49.199 --> 02:07:51.279
been described scientifically. We had known about

02:07:51.279 --> 02:07:53.359
it for about three years, but this is the largest

02:07:53.359 --> 02:07:56.539
eruption. And from that collection became part

02:07:56.539 --> 02:08:00.640
of the type collection that anchored the species

02:08:00.640 --> 02:08:03.520
taxonomically. So I think some of the specimens

02:08:03.520 --> 02:08:06.399
still exist in herbaria around the world because

02:08:06.399 --> 02:08:10.439
it's the reference standard. We go back to the

02:08:10.439 --> 02:08:12.960
house, and it's like, we've got to dry them.

02:08:13.939 --> 02:08:19.119
So we lay out newspapers, and the whole newspapers

02:08:19.119 --> 02:08:22.960
were just covered with mushrooms. And so that

02:08:22.960 --> 02:08:26.000
night, there's about four guys from Yale, all

02:08:26.000 --> 02:08:28.779
neurophysiology, all scientists on the scientist

02:08:28.779 --> 02:08:32.140
track, and they said, let's eat them. And so,

02:08:32.199 --> 02:08:34.260
I mean, this is not very potent. They're one

02:08:34.260 --> 02:08:37.159
-tenth the potency of Cubensis, so we made smoothies.

02:08:38.369 --> 02:08:41.750
And, oh, my gosh. Talk about the gag reflex.

02:08:42.010 --> 02:08:43.569
So we had to make these smoothies. We had to

02:08:43.569 --> 02:08:47.630
eat 50 of them in order to have a dose equivalent

02:08:47.630 --> 02:08:50.970
to what Salon Spicubensis would be. So I knew

02:08:50.970 --> 02:08:53.930
that. So we made these incredibly distasteful

02:08:53.930 --> 02:08:56.590
milkshakes, and we chugged them, and we drank

02:08:56.590 --> 02:09:01.060
them. And then an amazing experience. I bonded

02:09:01.060 --> 02:09:03.720
with my brother. It was beautiful. And then you're

02:09:03.720 --> 02:09:05.619
peeking at this experience. You look around and

02:09:05.619 --> 02:09:07.399
there's like tens of thousands of these mushrooms.

02:09:07.479 --> 02:09:12.260
Like, oh, my gosh. All for science. And so I

02:09:12.260 --> 02:09:16.800
go to bed. And I'm laying in bed and, you know,

02:09:16.819 --> 02:09:19.699
full -blown experience. And, you know, I can

02:09:19.699 --> 02:09:22.680
barely sleep because all the colors are keeping

02:09:22.680 --> 02:09:25.720
me awake and my mind is racing. And then I have

02:09:25.720 --> 02:09:30.560
a lucid dream. And I'm dreaming, and I wake up,

02:09:30.579 --> 02:09:33.760
and I go downstairs, and I go, I had this crazy

02:09:33.760 --> 02:09:36.300
dream. And I said, what's your dream? And I said,

02:09:36.420 --> 02:09:41.359
I saw thousands of cattle dead, baking in the

02:09:41.359 --> 02:09:45.079
sun. I said, I think there's going to be a nuclear

02:09:45.079 --> 02:09:48.859
war. But what could kill all these cattle? You

02:09:48.859 --> 02:09:50.659
know, there's a time, the Reagan administration

02:09:50.659 --> 02:09:55.500
and all that, you know, the tension was really

02:09:55.500 --> 02:09:57.100
high between the Soviet Union and the United

02:09:57.100 --> 02:09:59.880
States. And they said, and they were joking with

02:09:59.880 --> 02:10:02.260
me, saying, oh, well, OK, you know, when is it

02:10:02.260 --> 02:10:04.819
going to happen? I go, I know I was in Olympia

02:10:04.819 --> 02:10:07.319
and I needed to rush up to Darrington to stay

02:10:07.319 --> 02:10:09.140
in my cabin because my books were up there and

02:10:09.140 --> 02:10:10.939
my manuscript was up there. I need to save my

02:10:10.939 --> 02:10:14.000
research. So they laughed and they laughed. They

02:10:14.000 --> 02:10:15.800
said, well, when's the world going to end, Paul?

02:10:15.899 --> 02:10:18.500
And I go, well, it's not this weekend. That was

02:10:18.500 --> 02:10:21.460
like in two days. It's next weekend. So they

02:10:21.460 --> 02:10:24.720
wrote on the calendar, December 1st. I put it

02:10:24.720 --> 02:10:27.779
in my book. I think it's 1975, the end of the

02:10:27.779 --> 02:10:30.100
world. They wrote, Paul predicts the end of the

02:10:30.100 --> 02:10:35.079
world. So we forgot about it. Massive rains the

02:10:35.079 --> 02:10:39.020
next week. Huge amounts of snowfall. And then

02:10:39.020 --> 02:10:40.819
on Wednesday, Thursday, temperature inversion.

02:10:41.470 --> 02:10:45.369
And it flipped to 75 to 85 degrees. All the snow

02:10:45.369 --> 02:10:47.890
started to melt. All the rivers were flooding.

02:10:48.069 --> 02:10:50.909
And my little cabin was right next to this river

02:10:50.909 --> 02:10:54.789
that would swell from day to morning to night.

02:10:54.930 --> 02:10:57.609
It would go up six feet just from the snow melt

02:10:57.609 --> 02:10:59.609
because it was very close to this volcano and

02:10:59.609 --> 02:11:02.079
the glaciers. I said, oh, my gosh, I'm going

02:11:02.079 --> 02:11:03.640
to lose my manuscript, all my research. I need

02:11:03.640 --> 02:11:05.319
to get up there. I need to get up there. And

02:11:05.319 --> 02:11:06.699
so I'm watching the news on the news, and the

02:11:06.699 --> 02:11:08.159
roads are being closed. So I had to go through

02:11:08.159 --> 02:11:10.020
Rockport, Washington, the back way in order to

02:11:10.020 --> 02:11:12.460
get back to my cabin. I get to my cabin, and

02:11:12.460 --> 02:11:14.800
the bank had eroded about 10 feet. I was only

02:11:14.800 --> 02:11:17.500
about 10, 12 feet away from the river now. My

02:11:17.500 --> 02:11:19.159
cabin was on the verge of falling into it. But

02:11:19.159 --> 02:11:21.739
I got my manuscript. I got all my books. I rescued

02:11:21.739 --> 02:11:24.039
all the material I had, but I couldn't get out

02:11:24.039 --> 02:11:26.390
of there. because the roads had been closed.

02:11:26.710 --> 02:11:29.390
And so I had to wait two days, two days, and

02:11:29.390 --> 02:11:34.310
the roads then opened up, and I drove out of

02:11:34.310 --> 02:11:37.069
the valley into the Snohomish Valley, and I went

02:11:37.069 --> 02:11:40.130
around the bend, and there the sun, it was a

02:11:40.130 --> 02:11:43.329
brilliant sunny day, a warm day, and there floating

02:11:43.329 --> 02:11:46.289
in the fields were hundreds and hundreds of dead

02:11:46.289 --> 02:11:53.710
cattle. Whoa. How do you explain that? I entered,

02:11:53.789 --> 02:11:58.729
I think, into the multiverse. Now, as a scientist,

02:11:59.050 --> 02:12:01.090
you realize when you say something like that,

02:12:01.149 --> 02:12:02.989
you open yourself up to ridicule. Do you feel

02:12:02.989 --> 02:12:05.829
hesitant to communicate these ideas? To a degree,

02:12:05.949 --> 02:12:08.029
yes. But, you know, I'm 62 years of age. And,

02:12:08.050 --> 02:12:10.390
you know, at one point, I just don't care. I

02:12:10.390 --> 02:12:13.109
just don't care. This is true. This happened

02:12:13.109 --> 02:12:16.630
to me. And I can push the envelope on these ideas

02:12:16.630 --> 02:12:18.510
because the credibility of my research is well

02:12:18.510 --> 02:12:21.250
established. I can save the bees. Do you care

02:12:21.250 --> 02:12:23.989
whether I have taken psilocybin mushrooms, if

02:12:23.989 --> 02:12:26.989
I can save your farm, your family, your country,

02:12:27.029 --> 02:12:29.050
or the world billions of dollars and protect

02:12:29.050 --> 02:12:32.000
biosecurity? I care more. I care more. That's

02:12:32.000 --> 02:12:34.539
right. So I'm telling you things. I'm not making

02:12:34.539 --> 02:12:36.520
this up. I don't think you are. I don't have

02:12:36.520 --> 02:12:39.159
to. I just wondered. But just because you can't

02:12:39.159 --> 02:12:41.479
explain it does not mean it's not true. Right.

02:12:41.560 --> 02:12:44.300
And I think that we need to accept the fact that

02:12:44.300 --> 02:12:47.140
the reality is not limited to the perception

02:12:47.140 --> 02:12:50.500
that we have traditionally used. That's a beautiful

02:12:50.500 --> 02:12:53.890
way to describe it. Let's end with that. That's

02:12:53.890 --> 02:12:56.270
perfect. Thank you, brother. Paul, thank you

02:12:56.270 --> 02:12:59.189
so much. I'm so glad you came here. And thank

02:12:59.189 --> 02:13:01.470
you to all the people that recommended you and

02:13:01.470 --> 02:13:04.460
turned me on to your work. Can we do this again?

02:13:04.739 --> 02:13:07.220
I'd love to. Please. All right. And if people

02:13:07.220 --> 02:13:11.220
want to research more of your stuff, fungi .com.

02:13:11.439 --> 02:13:13.779
And what was the other website? And hostdefense

02:13:13.779 --> 02:13:16.800
.com. Hostdefense .com. And there's a ton of

02:13:16.800 --> 02:13:19.439
other information. TED Talk. And I have a youtube

02:13:19.439 --> 02:13:23.979
.com slash Paul Stamets site. And Louis Schwartzberg,

02:13:24.020 --> 02:13:27.239
a shout out. We have a fantastic fungi .com.

02:13:27.720 --> 02:13:29.300
Check it out. Louie and I are coming out with

02:13:29.300 --> 02:13:31.500
a movie that describes much of this stuff. Thank

02:13:31.500 --> 02:13:33.579
you so much. All right. Thank you, brother. That

02:13:33.579 --> 02:13:34.060
was awesome.