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Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1284. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Lost Civilizations, Alternative Archaeology, and Ancient Human History. Here we go. And boom, we're live. Graham, great

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to see you again. Nice to be back with you, Joe.

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And we were just talking about your new book.

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before that there's two versions of it. There's

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one version and then there's a newer version

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that's a Barnes & Noble version that's specific

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to Barnes & Noble that has an extra whole chapter

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in it. That's correct, yeah. Yeah, and so they

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can get that at Barnes & Noble. I'm just trying

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to keep bookstores alive, man. They're on the

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way out. I think it's really important and that's

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one of the reasons that I did this because I

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had finished the book and then Barnes & Noble...

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came to me through my publishers and said they

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would like to do a special edition of the book.

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But in order to do that, I needed to write them

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some extra material. And I had a lot of material

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that I hadn't put in the book. And I thought,

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well, this is an opportunity to put that out

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there. Beautiful. So if people want that, it's

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a little bit different than there's a small gold

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square. Well, okay. So first of all, my website,

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grahamhancock .com, has a page about America

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Before. And the link to the Barnes & Noble edition

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is there as well as the link to the standard

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edition, which is on Amazon and iTunes and all

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kinds of other places. So GrahamHancock .com

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and the America Before page, the link to the

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Barnes & Noble edition is right there. All right.

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There it is. So how is this – before we even

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get into the book, what is it? Go to Talks and

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Events. Okay. We're on the Graham Hancock website.

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No. Go to Books. Go to Books. Go to America Before.

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Bam. Bam. There it is. Go to United States. You

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can see Amazon, Barnes, and there's Barnes &

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Noble. Special edition. Special edition. Click

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on that. There you go. And then the e -book as

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well. The e -book is available. The audio book,

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which I read myself, is available there. And

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then if you scroll down, oops, that shouldn't

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be there. Damn pop -ups. Damn pop -ups. Sons

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of bitches. I am so happy you read it yourself.

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I get angry when someone else reads someone who

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I'm like, come on, he can talk. Yeah, I enjoy

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reading web books myself. And what I've learned

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from feedback I get from audiences at presentations

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is people like me doing that. Oh, yeah, for sure.

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Yeah. Yeah, 100%. It's just weird when someone

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else is talking in your voice. Like, hey, man,

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I know you're not Graham. You know that I write

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fiction as well as nonfiction. And the one thing

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I can't read is my fiction. Really? Well, yeah,

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because fiction requires accents. You really

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need an actor to read a fiction book who can

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get into the different characters. But for a

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nonfiction book like America Before, it's very

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difficult. straightforward for me just to read

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it myself i agree i'm a tremendous stephen king

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fan but when i read stephen king's books where

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he reads them or listen to him when he reads

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them they're terrible he's awful at it i don't

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think a novelist should should read their own

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their own novels i think that's that's a job

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for for an actor oddly enough i've just been

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reading stephen king's doc tower series yeah

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very near the end of the seventh volume of that

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yeah i'm just a giant fan of his but man when

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he reads it he reads it like he's just reading

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it yeah it's like this is rough it's hard to

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get behind anyway um America before. On the website,

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there's details about the book. There's a page

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where there are links to the book. And also the

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other thing I would like to take this opportunity

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to mention is I'm in America and Canada for the

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next seven weeks. And I'm going to be doing something

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like 25 presentations in something like 20 American

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cities and then three Canadian cities in Vancouver,

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Montreal, and Toronto. And that's all on the

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talks and events page of my website. So if anybody

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wants to come along, And meet this old man in

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person. I'll be doing those events. And are you

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doing these at theaters? And do you allow Q &As?

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Absolutely, I allow Q &As. I encourage that.

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I feel as an author that, frankly speaking, I'm

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nothing without my audience. I owe my audience,

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my readers, big time. And what I try to do at

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events is to give back as much as I can. So if

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people want to take pictures with me, I am absolutely...

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up for that i don't understand why anybody would

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want to do that But it's fun. It's kind of fun.

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And when people want to come to the desk where

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I'm signing and ask me personal questions, I'm

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ready to do that. Sometimes on the British book

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tour, which I just finished, I was behind in

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the event space for four hours after the event

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finished. Wow. Signing and taking pictures. But

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it's a joy. It's a really opportunity for me

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to interact with the people who actually make

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my work matter. That's fantastic. Beautiful.

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So what inspired this? I know there's always

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been – well, you – first of all, we should just

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say for people who don't know, You have been

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at the front of the line for decades talking

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about these lost civilizations. And from reading

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your work, I mean, I think I first read your

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work in the 90s. You exposed me to a lot of these,

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what were at the time, controversial ideas that

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have now been substantiated by actual evidence,

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particularly Gobekli Tepe. I mean, all the water

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erosion stuff on the Sphinx, and I've since had

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Dr. Robert Schock on the podcast to talk about

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that as well. But all this stuff was, at one

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point, very controversial, and now far less.

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I mean, whatever... Traditional academics and

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traditional historians that are trying to – I

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guess it's archaeologists that were trying to

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resist. They've let go a lot of that. They've

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had to with things like Gobekli Tepe. They've

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had to because the evidence has overwhelmed them.

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And Gobekli Tepe is an excellent example. Prior

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to the discovery and excavation of Gobekli Tepe,

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which is a site in Anatolia in Turkey, it was

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the view, very firm view of archaeologists that

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there had been no megalithic architecture anywhere

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on earth. And when I say megalithic, I mean literally

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big. stones, stone circles, huge constructions,

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nothing like that before at the very, very earliest

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6 ,000 years ago. And they would point to sites

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in, for example, Malta, a site called Gigantia,

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which is about 5 ,800 years old. That's the oldest

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megalithic architecture in the world. And they

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could understand how that was because these were

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agricultural societies. They generated surpluses.

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You could free up people who could become specialists

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in. architecture in astronomy and geometry, and

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they could apply their skills to the construction

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of these sites. But what they never considered

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possible was that a society that was hunter -gatherers

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would have created a gigantic megalithic site.

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And then suddenly, Gobekli Tepe is discovered.

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It dates to 11 ,600 years ago. It's more than

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5 ,000 years older than the supposedly oldest

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megalithic architecture in the world. And it

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is in a center where there had been no previous

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evidence of agriculture. But the moment Gobekli

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Tepe appears, agriculture appears as well. And

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this is just something that's really hard for

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archaeology to explain. They've suddenly got

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5 ,000 years of missing history that they've

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just never taken into account. And what I see

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them doing is largely avoiding the problem rather

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than getting to grips with it directly. And in

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fact, there have been... There have been a great

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number of changes in the last 20 years which

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have worked generally in favor of the arguments

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that I've proposed. Well, I'm so happy for you

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because I know that for a long time you were

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out there on your own with a lot of these theories.

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Very much so. And also subjected to the most

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blistering and deeply unpleasant criticism. From

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the archaeological fraternity and from their

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friends in the media. Like how dare this journalist

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propose that history might be different or that

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we might have a forgotten chapter in the human

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story. It was regarded almost as offensive that

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I would put this material out there. And archaeologists

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felt it was their responsibility to show the

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public that I was full of shit. And that was

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the whole way my work was greeted. And to a certain

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extent still is greeted by archaeologists. But

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things have changed. Central to my work was the

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notion of a global cataclysm roughly 12 ,500,

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12 ,800 years ago. It made sense to me in 1995

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when I wrote Fingerprints of the Gods, but there

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was no compelling evidence for a global cataclysm

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then. All the evidence seemed to point to that

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time and a massive global event. And then from

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2007 onwards, you know, more than a decade after

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I wrote Fingerprints of the Gods, we get a group

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of more than 60 major scientists who are seriously

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proposing that the Earth was hit by multiple

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fragments of a giant comet 12 ,800 years ago

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and that this caused a huge rise in sea level

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and extinctions of megafaunas. They are not saying

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that it also wiped out a lost advanced civilization

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of prehistory. I'm saying that. But what has

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changed is that we now have compelling, hard

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scientific evidence. I'm not saying every scientist

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accepts it. It's the nature of science to dispute

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findings. But we have a group of 60 major figures

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who have seriously proposed this in all the leading

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mainstream journals. And it's changed the balance

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of power in this argument because one thing that

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they used to say is Hancock can't be right because

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there was no global cataclysm, you know, 12 or

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13 ,000 years ago. Well, now we know there was

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and there are various explanations for it. So

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that's moved things along in the other thing

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that's changed a lot is the attitude of the man

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in the street to authority. That has changed.

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Back in the 90s, authority figures were the gatekeepers.

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They controlled everything. If an authority figure

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in a discipline like archaeology said, Hancock

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is completely wrong. He's made all this stuff

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up. That would generally be believed, not by

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everybody, but by the majority of people. Today,

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to have a mainstream authority figure say that

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to me is actually an advantage because people

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are so distrustful of authority and rightly so

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because we've been lied to by authority figures

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in all fields for so long. The bullshit has been

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so enormous that people are finally waking up

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but we can't trust what authority figures say

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and i think we can thank the internet for that

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we can thank the internet yeah yeah i'm sure

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you've seen the more recent evidence of a crater

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that they just discovered like fairly recently

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greenland yes enormous enormous it's an enormous

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it's an enormous crater uh it's um 18 miles wide

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It had not been discovered before because it's

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under ice. It's under a lot of ice. At the end

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of the Ice Age, Greenland was one area which

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never lost its ice cover completely, whereas

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North America, everywhere north of Minnesota,

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was covered in ice a mile, sometimes two miles

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deep. Europe, the same, northern Europe. But

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Greenland kept its ice, whereas the other parts

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of the world lost their ice at the end of the

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Ice Age. Interesting about Greenland is there's

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already evidence of comet impact in Greenland,

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which goes back to papers published in the Proceedings

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of the National Academy of Sciences in 2013,

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that they found what are called impact proxies

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in Greenland. In other words, nanodiamonds, carbon

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spherules, and evidence of a lot of platinum

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and iron was found in a layer in the ice dated

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to 12 ,800 years ago. But the next development,

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and you're absolutely right, and this was just

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a few months ago, was the discovery of this humongous

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crater in Greenland and evidence that it was

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caused by an iron impactor of some kind. Now,

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dating of it, I would be irresponsible to say

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that that crater definitely dates to 12 ,800

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years ago because the work has not been done

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to prove that yet. But what I can say and what

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the... who have explored and excavated the crater

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are saying is that it's recent. They can say

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for sure that it happened during the last ice

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age. Under it, under the crater, is nothing but

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massively disturbed and destroyed and completely

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wrecked ice from the ice age, from the Pleistocene.

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Above it is smooth, perfect ice from our epoch,

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which is called the Holocene, which began about

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11 ,600 years ago. So all the evidence... suggests

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that this crater dates to that period between

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12 ,800 and 11 ,600 years ago, but to absolutely

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confirm that more work needs to be done. But

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it's part of a growing pattern. The Younger Dryas

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impact scientists, they call themselves, they

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call this the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis.

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And it's because there was a period in the Earth's

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geological history that geologists call the Younger

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Dryas, which lasted for 1 ,200 years from 12

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,800 to 11 ,600 years ago. It's a very mysterious

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period. We see all the megafauna dying off suddenly

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and rapidly. We see rises in sea level. We see

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a huge collapse in global temperature. It's a

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cataclysmic. And what is becoming clearer and

00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.179
clearer is that the evidence that a comet was

00:12:29.179 --> 00:12:32.639
behind it is extremely strong. And as more and

00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.980
more evidence comes in, we realize how widespread

00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:36.860
it was. So they found evidence of the impacts

00:12:36.860 --> 00:12:39.259
as far south as Antarctica now. Previously, they

00:12:39.259 --> 00:12:41.320
were focused very much on North America. Now,

00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:44.019
as far south as Antarctica, as far east as Syria.

00:12:44.139 --> 00:12:47.940
This was truly a global event. And it changed

00:12:47.940 --> 00:12:52.539
the world. And it's my case that it wiped our

00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:55.789
memory. of a previous episode of human civilization

00:12:55.789 --> 00:12:57.929
that right at the epicenter of this cataclysm

00:12:57.929 --> 00:13:01.070
was a civilization that we would regard as advanced,

00:13:01.309 --> 00:13:03.929
not a simple hunter -gatherer civilization, which

00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:06.690
was utterly wiped out in this cataclysmic event.

00:13:06.970 --> 00:13:09.730
And I should say for anyone who's really fascinated

00:13:09.730 --> 00:13:14.029
right now, please maybe pause and go listen to

00:13:14.029 --> 00:13:17.169
the two that you did with Randall Carlson, where

00:13:17.169 --> 00:13:19.889
it really goes into depth about the impact, the

00:13:19.889 --> 00:13:22.250
evidence of these impacts, the evidence of the

00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:25.389
very... very quick demise of the ice age. and

00:13:25.389 --> 00:13:28.009
what may have resulted in all these floods that

00:13:28.009 --> 00:13:30.169
you read about in the Epic of Gilgamesh, that

00:13:30.169 --> 00:13:31.909
you read about in Noah's Ark, and that all these

00:13:31.909 --> 00:13:35.629
things are probably tales of stories that people

00:13:35.629 --> 00:13:37.950
passed down from generation to generation that

00:13:37.950 --> 00:13:40.110
survived this time. Yeah, because we now know

00:13:40.110 --> 00:13:43.289
that at that time, between 12 ,800 and 11 ,600

00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:46.029
years ago, truly global cataclysmic events involving

00:13:46.029 --> 00:13:49.509
rapid rises in sea level did occur, and suddenly

00:13:49.509 --> 00:13:53.440
the worldwide tradition of a global flood. stops

00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.940
being just a myth and starts being a memory,

00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:58.799
an account of real events. It's been my privilege

00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.120
to work very closely with Randall Carlson. Yeah,

00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:02.940
he's amazing. Randall is absolutely amazing.

00:14:03.179 --> 00:14:06.860
He is a total genius. He's also a gentle giant

00:14:06.860 --> 00:14:09.580
and such a kind, generous, spirited person. It's

00:14:09.580 --> 00:14:11.840
a joy to work with him. And every minute spent

00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.580
with him is an education. I had the privilege

00:14:13.580 --> 00:14:15.620
of traveling across the Channel Scablands in

00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:18.039
Washington State with Randall. Seeing things

00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.299
through his eyes really opened my eyes to the

00:14:20.299 --> 00:14:22.059
scale of this disaster. You know, you can look

00:14:22.059 --> 00:14:24.379
at these giant boulders called glacial erratics,

00:14:24.379 --> 00:14:26.580
and they just look odd sitting there in the landscape.

00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:28.799
But when you really consider how they got there,

00:14:29.019 --> 00:14:31.960
that they got there in icebergs the size of oil

00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:34.440
tankers that were carried on floods that were

00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.120
at least 500 up to 1 ,000 feet deep that were

00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.679
tearing through the channeled scablands, literally

00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:42.740
ripping the landscape apart. Then the icebergs

00:14:42.740 --> 00:14:45.039
would ground on valley sides. The floodwaters

00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.179
would recede. The icebergs would be. left their

00:14:47.179 --> 00:14:50.159
giant icebergs and as they melted away they revealed

00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.299
the rocks that they had in chain that were caught

00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:53.919
up within them and they're scattered all over

00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:55.480
the landscape and you look at that and you think

00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:59.580
anything that was underneath that 12 ,800 years

00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:02.980
ago is gone completely. There can't be anything

00:15:02.980 --> 00:15:05.220
left of it at all. Utterly, utterly destroyed.

00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:07.940
And I would encourage people that are interested

00:15:07.940 --> 00:15:09.980
in this to please watch the YouTube videos of

00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:12.580
it because Randall provides all sorts of video

00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:15.059
and photographic evidence where you can take

00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:17.059
a look at the landscape and you get a perspective

00:15:17.059 --> 00:15:21.120
of how immense this destruction was. It's really

00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.460
important to see that because it's easy enough

00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:27.809
to talk about floods and but actually to see

00:15:27.809 --> 00:15:32.750
its effect on the landscape directly is – it

00:15:32.750 --> 00:15:36.750
has an emotional impact. I felt emotional traveling

00:15:36.750 --> 00:15:39.350
across the Channel Scablands, realizing that

00:15:39.350 --> 00:15:43.710
this was the heart of an event that changed the

00:15:43.710 --> 00:15:48.269
world completely. And the evidence continues

00:15:48.269 --> 00:15:51.129
to build. In America before, I've not gone over

00:15:51.129 --> 00:15:53.470
old ground that I went over in Magicians of the

00:15:53.470 --> 00:15:56.809
Gods that we covered in the various interviews

00:15:56.809 --> 00:15:59.029
and podcasts in which it's really a good idea

00:15:59.029 --> 00:16:01.610
that people take a look at. But what I have done

00:16:01.610 --> 00:16:03.590
is added the new information published since

00:16:03.590 --> 00:16:07.009
2015, which further supports the Younger Dryas

00:16:07.009 --> 00:16:09.909
impact hypothesis and the notion that… Multiple

00:16:09.909 --> 00:16:12.590
fragments of a giant comet hit the earth and

00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:15.990
created an absolute global catastrophe. So what

00:16:15.990 --> 00:16:18.789
was the motivation behind creating this book,

00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:22.809
America Before? It's a curious mixture of things.

00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:27.590
I have been exploring the possibility of a lost

00:16:27.590 --> 00:16:30.600
civilization. for more than 25 years. That was

00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:33.019
the essence of my book, Fingerprints of the Gods,

00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.820
that was published in 1995, that there has been

00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:38.679
a huge forgotten episode in human history. I

00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:40.659
continued to follow that in a series of other

00:16:40.659 --> 00:16:44.340
books. And by the time I got to 2002, when I

00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:46.899
published a book called Underworld, that followed

00:16:46.899 --> 00:16:50.659
seven years of scuba diving on continental shelves,

00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:52.899
looking for structures that were submerged by

00:16:52.899 --> 00:16:54.759
rising sea levels at the end of the last ice

00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.559
age, I really felt I'd done it. I felt I'd walk

00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.000
the walk. put put out to the public a massive

00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.359
body of information and i thought my role in

00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:08.380
this is over and i can breathe a sigh of relief

00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:10.579
because it's hot in this particular kitchen and

00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:12.900
i can go do something else and i ended up writing

00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:14.759
a book about psychedelics i ended up writing

00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:16.880
supernatural meetings with the ancient teachers

00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:18.960
of mankind about the role of psychedelics in

00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:21.079
in the origins of the of the human story but

00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:24.180
then new information started to come out that

00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:26.839
touched on the lost civilization idea and i couldn't

00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:29.059
just stand by and ignore that information that's

00:17:29.059 --> 00:17:32.069
why I published Magicians of the Gods in 2015.

00:17:32.630 --> 00:17:35.670
And then as I was researching that book, I became

00:17:35.670 --> 00:17:37.730
aware of something I hadn't realized before,

00:17:37.869 --> 00:17:40.750
that there's a mass of new information from the

00:17:40.750 --> 00:17:43.009
Americas, specifically from the Americas, which

00:17:43.009 --> 00:17:45.750
completely rewrites the story of human history,

00:17:45.789 --> 00:17:50.210
that the Americas have been misrepresented for

00:17:50.210 --> 00:17:53.390
a very long time. by archaeology. And archaeologists

00:17:53.390 --> 00:17:55.410
will be annoyed with me for saying that. They

00:17:55.410 --> 00:17:58.549
have a way of forgetting their own errors, of

00:17:58.549 --> 00:18:00.289
saying, oh, well, we knew that all along. It

00:18:00.289 --> 00:18:02.529
wasn't the case. But the fact of the matter remains

00:18:02.529 --> 00:18:04.609
that for the best part of 50 years, from the

00:18:04.609 --> 00:18:08.589
1960s through until about 2010, American archaeology

00:18:08.589 --> 00:18:11.750
was locked in a dogma that they actually had

00:18:11.750 --> 00:18:15.769
a name for, which was Clovis first. That they

00:18:15.769 --> 00:18:18.470
invented a name for a culture. They called them

00:18:18.470 --> 00:18:20.650
the Clovis culture. We don't know what they called

00:18:20.650 --> 00:18:23.819
themselves. They were hunter -gatherers. They

00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:26.220
first appear in the archaeological record 13

00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:29.859
,400 years ago, and they vanish from the archaeological

00:18:29.859 --> 00:18:32.880
record 12 ,600 years ago. And for a very long

00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.539
time, it was maintained adamantly that these

00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:38.099
were the first Americans, that no human being

00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:42.039
touched the soil of the Americas until 13 ,400

00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:44.559
years ago. Just animals, but no human beings

00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.950
present at all. And any archaeologist who attempted

00:18:47.950 --> 00:18:51.450
to dispute that dogma, and I use the word deliberately,

00:18:51.589 --> 00:18:54.250
there should be no room for dogma in science,

00:18:54.390 --> 00:18:57.970
but any archaeologist who challenged that would

00:18:57.970 --> 00:19:00.930
face severe problems with his or her career.

00:19:01.660 --> 00:19:04.160
They would be mocked and humiliated at conferences

00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.180
like an archaeologist called Jacques -Hank Mars

00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:10.740
from Canada who excavated in the Yukon. Humiliated

00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:13.339
at conferences, insulted, accused of making stuff

00:19:13.339 --> 00:19:16.140
up. Their research funding would be withdrawn.

00:19:16.460 --> 00:19:18.720
Basically, to challenge Clovis first was the

00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:20.799
end of your archaeological career. So naturally,

00:19:21.019 --> 00:19:23.859
very few archaeologists wanted to challenge Clovis

00:19:23.859 --> 00:19:25.680
first. What was this gentleman in the Yukon?

00:19:25.819 --> 00:19:29.099
He's called Jacques -Hank Mars. And interestingly,

00:19:29.259 --> 00:19:33.430
the Smithsonian just in 20… 2017 did a big kind

00:19:33.430 --> 00:19:35.869
of mea culpa, a big admission about this, that

00:19:35.869 --> 00:19:37.829
everybody had got things wrong, that Jack St.

00:19:37.950 --> 00:19:40.710
Mars had been ruined by the Clovis First Lobby,

00:19:40.730 --> 00:19:43.950
but he'd been right all along. The site he excavated

00:19:43.950 --> 00:19:47.190
in the Yukon was re -excavated in 2017, and every

00:19:47.190 --> 00:19:49.710
single thing he said was correct, even though

00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:52.509
they had just sneered at him. And what year was

00:19:52.509 --> 00:19:56.390
he? He was excavating in the 1980s and the 1990s.

00:19:56.390 --> 00:19:58.230
Is he still alive? He's still alive. He's still

00:19:58.230 --> 00:20:00.630
alive, yeah. Is he better? Well, I think he's

00:20:00.630 --> 00:20:02.569
vindicated, you know, and it's kind of... It's

00:20:02.569 --> 00:20:05.009
kind of nice to be vindicated. There's almost

00:20:05.009 --> 00:20:08.309
a place in folklore for the individual who is

00:20:08.309 --> 00:20:11.829
scorned and humiliated by others but who turns

00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:15.430
out to be right. And he was right. But my point

00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:19.109
about this is that – What it meant was since

00:20:19.109 --> 00:20:22.210
it was the dogma that Clovis was first, that

00:20:22.210 --> 00:20:25.549
the oldest dates were 13 ,400 years ago, there

00:20:25.549 --> 00:20:27.849
seemed to be no logic to archaeologists in digging

00:20:27.849 --> 00:20:30.289
deeper. You know how it is with archaeology that

00:20:30.289 --> 00:20:32.809
the upper levels are the youngest and the deeper

00:20:32.809 --> 00:20:35.250
you go, the older it gets. That's why we say

00:20:35.250 --> 00:20:37.990
upper Paleolithic for the late Ice Age and lower

00:20:37.990 --> 00:20:40.250
Paleolithic for the late Stone Age and lower

00:20:40.250 --> 00:20:43.829
for the older. Stone Age. And the feeling was

00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:46.769
no need to dig below the Clovis lair because

00:20:46.769 --> 00:20:49.329
we already know that there were no human beings

00:20:49.329 --> 00:20:51.509
there before that. And then a few archaeologists,

00:20:51.569 --> 00:20:53.569
I've mentioned Jacques Saint -Germain, but another

00:20:53.569 --> 00:20:57.130
is Al Gugier from the University of South Carolina,

00:20:57.329 --> 00:21:00.990
who excavated a site called Topper in South Carolina.

00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:04.150
Now, Topper is an incredibly rich Clovis site.

00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:06.089
It's full of their tools, their points. They

00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:08.650
made these special flint points that were used

00:21:08.650 --> 00:21:11.480
as arrowheads and spears. Great Clovis site.

00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:14.680
He finished excavating the Clovis level. And

00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.259
then he did something that was supposed not to

00:21:18.259 --> 00:21:20.980
be done. He decided to dig deeper. And he carried

00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:23.740
on digging down. And there was a layer of about

00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:26.880
a meter and a half of barren soil. And then beneath

00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.460
that, more human artifacts. And they finally

00:21:29.460 --> 00:21:31.970
date those back to more than... 50 ,000 years

00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:36.930
ago. And then in 2017, published in Nature by

00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:39.849
Tom Demare, who's the chief paleontologist at

00:21:39.849 --> 00:21:42.930
the San Diego Natural History Museum, and a bunch

00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:46.710
of other very high -level paleontologists. published

00:21:46.710 --> 00:21:48.809
in Nature magazine, evidence for human presence

00:21:48.809 --> 00:21:52.869
in North America 130 ,000 years ago. Now, this

00:21:52.869 --> 00:21:54.910
has really put the cat amongst the pigeons. Now,

00:21:54.970 --> 00:21:58.069
if humans were present in North America 130 ,000

00:21:58.069 --> 00:22:00.089
years ago, and archaeologists have been telling

00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:02.309
us for 50 years that they were only present from

00:22:02.309 --> 00:22:06.470
13 ,000 years ago. That's ten times as long that

00:22:06.470 --> 00:22:08.630
we've had humans in North America capable of

00:22:08.630 --> 00:22:11.289
doing stuff. And the archaeological dogma has

00:22:11.289 --> 00:22:13.549
prevented any search for what they were doing

00:22:13.549 --> 00:22:16.329
until very recently. What was the evidence from

00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:18.869
130 ,000 years ago? Okay, so what – it's not

00:22:18.869 --> 00:22:21.809
the – let me be clear about this because this

00:22:21.809 --> 00:22:24.130
is something that is often misrepresented in

00:22:24.130 --> 00:22:27.289
my views. It is not the evidence for an advanced

00:22:27.289 --> 00:22:31.049
civilization that we find 130 ,000 years ago

00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:33.720
in America. The evidence that we find is evidence

00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:36.279
for human presence. And what they were doing

00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:39.000
was very much Stone Age stuff. It's a mastodon.

00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:43.319
It's a mastodon skeleton that was excavated.

00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.200
It was actually found by accident during road

00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:50.549
construction near San Diego. And an archaeologist

00:22:50.549 --> 00:22:52.549
was attached to the rogue construction crew and

00:22:52.549 --> 00:22:55.029
immediately stopped construction. And they investigated

00:22:55.029 --> 00:22:58.589
it thoroughly. And what they found was so much

00:22:58.589 --> 00:23:01.950
dynamite in the early 1990s when they found it

00:23:01.950 --> 00:23:04.069
that they decided not to publish at the time.

00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:06.190
Because what they found was evidence that those

00:23:06.190 --> 00:23:08.950
mastodon bones had been cracked open by human

00:23:08.950 --> 00:23:12.289
beings using tools and that the marrow had been

00:23:12.289 --> 00:23:15.089
extracted. that one tusk had been left standing

00:23:15.089 --> 00:23:17.710
upright in the ground and another had been left

00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:20.950
beside it, that a femur of the animal had been

00:23:20.950 --> 00:23:23.650
taken away completely from the site. And there

00:23:23.650 --> 00:23:26.490
was assemblages of instruments that were used

00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:28.150
to smash and break the bones. And the conclusion

00:23:28.150 --> 00:23:30.829
of the team was that only one kind of creature

00:23:30.829 --> 00:23:35.369
could have done that work using tools on a mastodon,

00:23:35.410 --> 00:23:37.589
and that's human beings. That's classic, classic

00:23:37.589 --> 00:23:41.529
human behavior. This sets the goalposts in a

00:23:41.529 --> 00:23:43.470
totally different place. Suddenly we have to

00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:45.390
consider that humans have been in America for

00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:48.470
130 ,000 years. We already know that a dogmatic

00:23:48.470 --> 00:23:51.450
approach of archaeology has rather refused to

00:23:51.450 --> 00:23:53.950
look at anything older than 13 ,000 years ago.

00:23:54.130 --> 00:23:57.210
And what it does is it generates an engine of

00:23:57.210 --> 00:23:59.990
demand that we need to be looking at those missing

00:23:59.990 --> 00:24:02.450
100 ,000 plus years. We need to be looking at

00:24:02.450 --> 00:24:04.210
it hard. Of course, the immediate reaction has

00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:06.829
not been to go looking for stuff in the other

00:24:06.829 --> 00:24:10.349
100 ,000 years. have responded by saying this

00:24:10.349 --> 00:24:12.849
is impossible. It can't be. It can't be so. But

00:24:12.849 --> 00:24:14.710
that's precisely what they said to Jacques Sainte

00:24:14.710 --> 00:24:17.089
-Mars, who said that humans were in bluefish

00:24:17.089 --> 00:24:19.509
caves in the Yukon 25 ,000 years ago. And it's

00:24:19.509 --> 00:24:21.609
precisely what they said to Al Goodyear, who

00:24:21.609 --> 00:24:24.049
said humans had been at Topper 50 ,000 years

00:24:24.049 --> 00:24:26.410
ago. And they were both right. And I believe

00:24:26.410 --> 00:24:29.349
that Tom Desmarais and his team, you don't get

00:24:29.349 --> 00:24:32.589
a big article published in Nature unless it's

00:24:32.589 --> 00:24:34.470
already pretty solidly based and pretty much

00:24:34.470 --> 00:24:36.569
peer reviews. It has produced a reaction. I would

00:24:36.569 --> 00:24:38.509
be wrong to say that it's universally. accepted.

00:24:38.609 --> 00:24:40.930
It's very much challenged, but it's intriguing.

00:24:41.470 --> 00:24:43.130
What is the challenge? The challenge fundamentally

00:24:43.130 --> 00:24:46.549
comes from we archaeologists know that there

00:24:46.549 --> 00:24:48.450
were no human beings in the Americas that far

00:24:48.450 --> 00:24:50.930
back. To put it in perspective, it's about 60

00:24:50.930 --> 00:24:53.130
,000 years before the first evidence of human

00:24:53.130 --> 00:24:56.930
beings in Europe. It's about 60 ,000 years before

00:24:56.930 --> 00:24:59.210
the first evidence of human beings in Australia.

00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:01.269
And this is just evidence of the first human

00:25:01.269 --> 00:25:02.849
beings. Yes. We have to point out how difficult

00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:05.029
it is to find evidence. It's extremely difficult

00:25:05.029 --> 00:25:07.170
to find. You know, sometimes we imagine that

00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:09.430
archaeologists are working with masses of skeletal

00:25:09.430 --> 00:25:11.670
material. No, they're not. They're not. I mean,

00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:14.849
this is one of the ironies. The whole Clovis

00:25:14.849 --> 00:25:16.910
first dogma, you would think that they had masses

00:25:16.910 --> 00:25:18.990
of material to work with. They did have the tools,

00:25:19.089 --> 00:25:22.400
but in terms of skeletal remains, just one. Just

00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.180
one single skeletal remain from that period.

00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:27.240
Now, one of the things that Michael Shermer had

00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.279
sent me was this dispute that perhaps the bones

00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:33.599
had been cracked open by the excavation material.

00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.660
Yeah. By the excavation machines. I saw Michael's

00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:39.960
email last night, and I appreciate that Michael

00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:43.160
wants to continue to engage with this subject.

00:25:43.299 --> 00:25:45.579
And that's his job. He's a professional skeptic,

00:25:45.579 --> 00:25:48.640
and it's his role to do so. But what he misses

00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.039
out, it's true that a new paper has been published.

00:25:51.500 --> 00:25:55.559
which raises questions over what's called the

00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.799
Cerruti Mastodon site, which is the site that

00:25:57.799 --> 00:25:59.980
Tom Desmarais at San Diego Natural History Museum

00:25:59.980 --> 00:26:04.519
excavated. And what's interesting, since Michael

00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:07.920
took the trouble to write the questions, can

00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:12.359
I just read you something that I responded to

00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:15.519
on this? Sure. Just do it into the microphone.

00:26:21.549 --> 00:26:25.269
In no way a refutation of the original paper

00:26:25.269 --> 00:26:28.230
in Nature. As a matter of fact, the gentleman

00:26:28.230 --> 00:26:31.829
who wrote that paper never even looked at the

00:26:31.829 --> 00:26:34.650
archaeological remains that are now in the San

00:26:34.650 --> 00:26:39.369
Diego Natural History Museum. What it is, what

00:26:39.369 --> 00:26:42.470
he based it on is... Reference, I'm quoting from

00:26:42.470 --> 00:26:46.190
the abstract of the paper itself, reference to

00:26:46.190 --> 00:26:48.809
a freeway right -of -way map and construction

00:26:48.809 --> 00:26:51.789
plans, contemporary road building practices,

00:26:52.049 --> 00:26:54.769
and worksite photographs available on the internet.

00:26:55.069 --> 00:26:57.490
In other words, the site was not visited. They

00:26:57.490 --> 00:26:59.529
simply looked at secondary references. They did

00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:02.089
not look at the archaeological material, and

00:27:02.089 --> 00:27:04.609
they ignored the entire argument of Tom Desmarais

00:27:04.609 --> 00:27:06.509
and his colleagues who had already addressed

00:27:06.509 --> 00:27:08.529
that issue. They didn't look at the bones? They

00:27:08.529 --> 00:27:12.369
did not look at the bones. When you break a fresh

00:27:12.369 --> 00:27:15.170
bone, it has a characteristic kind of spiral

00:27:15.170 --> 00:27:17.630
fracture that does not happen when you break

00:27:17.630 --> 00:27:20.109
a fossilized bone. And Tom Demare and his team

00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:23.009
specifically ruled out road -making machinery

00:27:23.009 --> 00:27:25.390
as responsible for this breaking pattern because

00:27:25.390 --> 00:27:28.910
they actually carried out experiments on modern

00:27:28.910 --> 00:27:31.150
elephants, deceased elephants, and they broke

00:27:31.150 --> 00:27:33.049
their bones. And the kind of fracture that you

00:27:33.049 --> 00:27:36.329
get in a fresh green bone is completely different

00:27:36.329 --> 00:27:38.730
from the kind of fracture you get in a fossilized

00:27:38.730 --> 00:27:41.880
bone. So, unfortunately, this paper pays no attention

00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:43.880
to that. It just looks at road plans and says

00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.180
there was road work there. It must have been

00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:47.019
done by road work. I think it's very sloppy,

00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.539
very weak, and it's certainly not the answer.

00:27:49.579 --> 00:27:53.059
We can expect ongoing debate, and that is healthy.

00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.599
But this is not a strong case at all. So this

00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:59.119
points to the first evidence that we found. And

00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.940
is there any effort underway to try to uncover

00:28:01.940 --> 00:28:04.640
more evidence from a similar time period? Well,

00:28:04.660 --> 00:28:08.230
I'm going to cite… Tom Desmarais, the chief paleontologist

00:28:08.230 --> 00:28:10.450
at the San Diego Natural History Museum. That's

00:28:10.450 --> 00:28:12.809
what he would like to see. He makes the point

00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:15.289
to me. I interview him. I spent a day with him

00:28:15.289 --> 00:28:16.849
at the Natural History Museum. He was very generous

00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:18.869
with his time. I did an extended interview and

00:28:18.869 --> 00:28:22.829
I quote from it in America before. And his wish

00:28:22.829 --> 00:28:25.329
is that archaeologists, instead of spending all

00:28:25.329 --> 00:28:28.269
their time trying to find ways to dismiss and

00:28:28.269 --> 00:28:31.230
get rid of his findings, his wish is that they

00:28:31.230 --> 00:28:33.529
would spend a little bit of that time looking

00:28:33.529 --> 00:28:37.450
at deposits older than 30. 400 years and even

00:28:37.450 --> 00:28:41.089
being willing to go back as far as 130 000 years

00:28:41.089 --> 00:28:44.049
that's that's would be a proper scientific response

00:28:44.049 --> 00:28:47.289
here is a thorough body of work put forward by

00:28:47.289 --> 00:28:50.769
a very senior group of scientists who hesitated

00:28:50.769 --> 00:28:52.690
before they published it. They had the information

00:28:52.690 --> 00:28:55.190
back in the 1990s, but it wasn't until refined

00:28:55.190 --> 00:28:59.150
dating techniques later than in the 21st century

00:28:59.150 --> 00:29:01.630
that they finally were sure what they had and

00:29:01.630 --> 00:29:04.910
that they published it in Nature in 2017. It's

00:29:04.910 --> 00:29:09.210
an important study. And I think what's going

00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:11.990
to happen is that we're going to find much more

00:29:11.990 --> 00:29:14.670
evidence of a very ancient human presence in

00:29:14.670 --> 00:29:17.289
the America. And that's what Tom Demery thinks

00:29:17.289 --> 00:29:20.609
as well. And as he points out, if we don't look.

00:29:21.210 --> 00:29:23.130
then we're never going to find. If we allow dogma

00:29:23.130 --> 00:29:25.509
to stop us looking and saying, oh, it's impossible

00:29:25.509 --> 00:29:27.910
that humans were in the Americas 130 ,000 years

00:29:27.910 --> 00:29:29.869
ago, so we won't bother to look. What a failure

00:29:29.869 --> 00:29:32.730
of science that is. And to spend all the time

00:29:32.730 --> 00:29:35.230
instead trying to get rid of the evidence that

00:29:35.230 --> 00:29:37.750
doesn't fit the current paradigm. But it's so

00:29:37.750 --> 00:29:39.950
fascinating that just this fortuitous discovery

00:29:39.950 --> 00:29:42.670
during a construction site could change the way

00:29:42.670 --> 00:29:45.069
people perceive things. You've got to wonder

00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:47.369
how much of that stuff is under, I mean, how

00:29:47.369 --> 00:29:49.250
deep did they have to go to find these mastodon

00:29:49.250 --> 00:29:51.599
bones? Well, so this is a, This is a road cut

00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:53.880
that's being made. So those would be pretty deep

00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.059
down, 10, 15 feet down. The grader is going through

00:29:57.059 --> 00:30:00.369
and... flattening them. It varies from place

00:30:00.369 --> 00:30:03.009
to place depending on soil deposition, the stratification

00:30:03.009 --> 00:30:07.890
of the soil. But the key point is that what you

00:30:07.890 --> 00:30:10.730
need to do is go deeper than 13 ,400 years ago.

00:30:10.829 --> 00:30:13.849
And you need to do so with dedication and vigor

00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:17.329
and with some kind of funding. And at the moment,

00:30:17.369 --> 00:30:20.990
archaeology doesn't see the point of that. If

00:30:20.990 --> 00:30:25.369
the paper in Nature by Tom Desmarais was alone,

00:30:25.630 --> 00:30:29.200
if there were nothing else than that, I wouldn't

00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.859
place so much trust in it. But I've spent a lot

00:30:31.859 --> 00:30:33.819
of time during the researching of this book with

00:30:33.819 --> 00:30:39.079
archaeologists who did deke. Did dig deeper.

00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:42.140
And what those archaeologists all confirm is

00:30:42.140 --> 00:30:44.079
that there have been human beings in the Americas

00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:46.779
for tens of thousands of years. And it's not

00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:49.460
surprising that that can be pushed back to 130

00:30:49.460 --> 00:30:52.140
,000 years ago because part of the argument about

00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:54.180
the peopling of the Americas has to do with a

00:30:54.180 --> 00:30:57.240
place that we now call the Bering Straits between

00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:01.819
Alaska and Siberia, which during the Ice Age

00:31:01.819 --> 00:31:05.920
were… at times, a land bridge. They were exposed

00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.380
because of lowered sea levels. Migrants who crossed

00:31:10.380 --> 00:31:13.640
that land bridge from Siberia on many occasions

00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:16.140
over periods of tens of thousands of years would

00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:18.700
find themselves confronted then by the North

00:31:18.700 --> 00:31:21.059
American ice cap, which oddly wasn't at the tip

00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:23.700
of Alaska but began further in. So there was

00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:25.859
living space in a bit of Alaska, but you couldn't

00:31:25.859 --> 00:31:28.180
get through the ice mountains, these literally

00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:31.339
ice mountains two miles deep covering the whole

00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:34.720
of North America and preventing access to the

00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:39.930
unglaciated parts of America. What happened?

00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:43.259
Around 13 ,400 years ago, there had been a period

00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:45.700
of global warming and the ice sheets began to

00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:48.119
melt and a corridor opened up between what's

00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:50.420
called the Cordillera Ice Sheet and the Laurentide

00:31:50.420 --> 00:31:52.700
Ice Sheet, the two major ice keeps in North America.

00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:54.940
And it's thought that the migration came through

00:31:54.940 --> 00:31:57.440
that corridor. Well, the thing is that exactly

00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.740
the same thing happened between 140 ,000 years

00:32:00.740 --> 00:32:03.519
ago and 120 ,000 years ago. There was an episode

00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.960
of global warming, an ice -free corridor opened

00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:08.339
up, and the same opportunity to enter the Americas

00:32:08.339 --> 00:32:10.750
was there at that period. than it was at the

00:32:10.750 --> 00:32:13.410
later period and Tom Demery's point and mine

00:32:13.410 --> 00:32:15.769
is that we have to pay much more attention to

00:32:15.769 --> 00:32:18.509
that earlier period and that's really why I've

00:32:18.509 --> 00:32:21.809
gone ahead and written this book is to try to

00:32:21.809 --> 00:32:26.539
put before a broad general audience, hopefully

00:32:26.539 --> 00:32:30.039
in language that makes sense, an assembly of

00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:33.240
all the latest information that casts doubt on

00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:34.900
the story we've been told. Because, my goodness,

00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:38.880
if archaeology is wrong about the story of the

00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:41.160
peopling of the Americas, if it's radically wrong,

00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:44.900
as it now appears to be, then our whole understanding

00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:46.940
of human history has to change. It's not just

00:32:46.940 --> 00:32:49.359
the history of the Americas. It's the history

00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.589
of the entire world. It has been... an absolute

00:32:52.589 --> 00:32:55.049
article of faith amongst archaeologists that

00:32:55.049 --> 00:33:00.650
civilization began in the old world. And indeed,

00:33:00.730 --> 00:33:04.450
I have a book in my library called History Begins

00:33:04.450 --> 00:33:07.869
at Sumer. And it's by Samuel Noah Kramer, a very

00:33:07.869 --> 00:33:10.910
renowned archaeologist. And it's a good book,

00:33:10.990 --> 00:33:13.430
actually. But the argument is that this is where

00:33:13.430 --> 00:33:16.329
civilization began in the culture that we call

00:33:16.329 --> 00:33:18.890
the Sumerians in Mesopotamia between the Tigris

00:33:18.890 --> 00:33:21.829
and the Euphrates rivers. And that it began about

00:33:21.829 --> 00:33:24.569
6 ,000 years ago. And that civilization is entirely

00:33:24.569 --> 00:33:27.650
an invention of the old world. And has nothing

00:33:27.650 --> 00:33:29.950
to do with the new world at all because the new

00:33:29.950 --> 00:33:33.500
world was populated so late. This has been the

00:33:33.500 --> 00:33:36.980
argument, and this is the argument that now radically

00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:40.160
and suddenly begins to change, that the Americas,

00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.140
this enormous landmass, resource -rich, bountiful

00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:47.680
in every way, south of Minnesota, south of the

00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:51.180
ice cap, vast land areas that are bountiful,

00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:53.720
get into Central America, South America, the

00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.720
Amazon, just huge areas of land that were very,

00:33:56.779 --> 00:33:59.900
very... offered great potential for human occupation.

00:34:00.619 --> 00:34:03.140
Dogma has said there were no humans there. Now

00:34:03.140 --> 00:34:04.980
the first bits of evidence are coming out that

00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:07.980
says there were humans there. And if that's the

00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:10.099
case, then we must consider the possibility that

00:34:10.099 --> 00:34:12.219
the story of civilization might have begun in

00:34:12.219 --> 00:34:14.420
the Americas, not in the old world at all. It

00:34:14.420 --> 00:34:16.820
might be a new world invention, not an old world

00:34:16.820 --> 00:34:19.320
invention. Some of the more fascinating pieces

00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:21.599
of evidence in South America have come out recently

00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:25.119
about these channels and pathways that they've

00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:27.619
found in the Amazon that could not have been

00:34:27.619 --> 00:34:30.380
created any other way but by humans absolutely

00:34:30.380 --> 00:34:33.960
creating irrigation humans creating like it appears

00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:37.300
like grids like a city grid definitely the amazon

00:34:37.300 --> 00:34:40.920
is a colossal mystery and it's one of the subjects

00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:44.360
that i explore in depth in america before first

00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:46.559
of all to give some basic figures the amazon

00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:51.039
basin is huge the amazon basin is seven million

00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:55.909
square kilometers in area And within it, five

00:34:55.909 --> 00:34:58.909
and a half million square kilometers remains

00:34:58.909 --> 00:35:02.409
almost entirely unstudied by archaeologists.

00:35:02.610 --> 00:35:04.210
And that's the five and a half million square

00:35:04.210 --> 00:35:07.250
kilometers that is still covered by dense rainforest.

00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:09.789
And to put that into perspective, five and a

00:35:09.789 --> 00:35:12.030
half million square kilometers is the size of

00:35:12.030 --> 00:35:15.309
the entire Indian subcontinent. So it's like

00:35:15.309 --> 00:35:17.789
saying we've done world archaeology, but we've

00:35:17.789 --> 00:35:21.739
just ignored India. We've done world archaeology,

00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.920
but we've just ignored the Amazon. It's the same

00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.260
argument, 5 .5 million square kilometers. The

00:35:26.260 --> 00:35:28.519
view was, again, there was a dogma. There was

00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:31.619
a preconception. Human beings couldn't have flourished

00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:35.400
in the Amazon. It's not a resource -rich area.

00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:38.860
The soils are poor. It's a difficult area, challenging

00:35:38.860 --> 00:35:41.380
to get to, very far from the Bering Straits.

00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:43.860
So the view was that humans hadn't entered the

00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:47.670
Amazon until about 1 ,000 years ago. And then

00:35:47.670 --> 00:35:49.989
gradually, little by little, that view has begun

00:35:49.989 --> 00:35:52.769
to change. And it's begun to change because of

00:35:52.769 --> 00:35:54.949
the tragic clearances of the Amazon, because

00:35:54.949 --> 00:35:57.230
the Amazon rainforest is literally being cut

00:35:57.230 --> 00:36:01.269
down and turned into soya bean farms and cattle

00:36:01.269 --> 00:36:03.789
ranches. And in that cutting down process has

00:36:03.789 --> 00:36:06.530
emerged things that shouldn't be there at all.

00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:10.369
For example, evidence that large cities flourished

00:36:10.369 --> 00:36:13.210
in the Amazon, enormous cities, which were larger.

00:36:14.089 --> 00:36:16.730
There was a Spanish explorer who went down the

00:36:16.730 --> 00:36:19.809
Amazon River system in 1541 to 1542. He was the

00:36:19.809 --> 00:36:22.329
first European to cross the entire length of

00:36:22.329 --> 00:36:25.869
South America from west to east along the Amazon.

00:36:25.949 --> 00:36:29.269
He reported seeing incredible cities, advanced

00:36:29.269 --> 00:36:32.429
arts and crafts, millions of people, a thriving

00:36:32.429 --> 00:36:35.769
culture. And 100 years later, when other Europeans

00:36:35.769 --> 00:36:37.389
got into the Amazon, they couldn't find these

00:36:37.389 --> 00:36:40.329
cities. So they said, oh, Francisco Oriana, that

00:36:40.329 --> 00:36:42.989
was his name, made it all up. It was just a fantasy.

00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:45.800
And then in the last decade as the clearances

00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:47.860
of the Amazon have proceeded, we've begun to

00:36:47.860 --> 00:36:50.159
see the traces of those cities. What happened

00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:53.420
was that the Spaniards brought smallpox into

00:36:53.420 --> 00:36:57.039
the Amazon. Smallpox devastated the local population

00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.119
because there was no immunity to it. There was

00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:01.400
a massive die -off. The cities were deserted.

00:37:01.699 --> 00:37:04.260
Within 50 years, they were completely overgrown

00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:06.380
by the jungle. And that's why they were not seen

00:37:06.380 --> 00:37:08.619
by the explorers who came in 100 years later.

00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:10.679
But now the jungle is being cleared. Those cities

00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.280
are emerging. And we can say that a city like

00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.480
London, which had a population of roughly 50

00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:17.780
,000 in the 16th century, there were cities of

00:37:17.780 --> 00:37:20.639
that size all over the Amazon. Huge numbers of

00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:23.900
them. And a possible... Total population of the

00:37:23.900 --> 00:37:26.719
Amazon that exceeded 20 million people. What?

00:37:27.019 --> 00:37:29.519
Yes, 20 million. This is the latest evidence

00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:31.440
from the Amazon. And then you ask yourself, how

00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:34.159
did they do that? How did they feed 20 million

00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.619
people in the Amazon? Because it's a fact. Rainforest

00:37:36.619 --> 00:37:39.039
soils are poor. It's one of the reasons these

00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:41.300
soybean farms are a really stupid idea because

00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:43.840
once you clear the rainforest, the land is largely

00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:46.579
unfertile and you can't grow stuff on it for

00:37:46.579 --> 00:37:48.519
very long. So how did they feed all these people?

00:37:48.659 --> 00:37:52.880
The answer was they invented a soil. And that

00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:56.300
soil has a name. It's called terra preta. Archaeologists

00:37:56.300 --> 00:37:59.380
refer to it as Amazonian dark earths or Amazonian

00:37:59.380 --> 00:38:02.519
black earth. It's a man -made soil. It's thousands

00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:05.199
of years old. It's full of microbes that are

00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.039
not found in adjoining soil. It's based around

00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:12.440
biochar. And you can take a handful of 8 ,000

00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.059
-year -old terra preta, and you can add it to

00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:17.960
barren soil, and that soil will instantly become

00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:20.500
fertile. It's highly sought after in the Amazon,

00:38:20.619 --> 00:38:22.639
and it explains how they fed these people. There

00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:24.380
was science in the Amazon. How did they create

00:38:24.380 --> 00:38:26.539
this? Well, this is something that's not understood.

00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:28.739
It's still not understood by soil experts to

00:38:28.739 --> 00:38:30.780
this day as to how that was done, but it's one

00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:33.400
of many intriguing evidences, pieces of evidence

00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:37.360
of much higher development in the Amazon that

00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:39.780
it has been given credit for and of a kind of

00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:41.800
science in the Amazon. Jamie's got an image of

00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:43.960
it up there. So this is it? This is terra preta,

00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.320
yeah. Wow. Exactly. So was that done by burns?

00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:51.159
Did they use controlled? They did. One way that

00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:55.860
it was achieved was to do wet burning of middens.

00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.820
They would be burned and smolder. They wouldn't

00:38:58.820 --> 00:39:00.780
burn fiercely, which just produces charcoal.

00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:05.019
They would burn and smolder. And that, what is

00:39:05.019 --> 00:39:07.420
called biochar, would result. And that's part

00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:09.079
of the fertility of the soil. But the mystery

00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:11.929
is the microbial. content of this soil, which

00:39:11.929 --> 00:39:14.110
is completely different from the microbes in

00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:16.769
neighboring soils. And that remains unexplained.

00:39:16.789 --> 00:39:19.809
So what are the theories? Composting? Some sort

00:39:19.809 --> 00:39:22.090
of advanced composting? Some sort of advanced

00:39:22.090 --> 00:39:25.050
composting. But again, what has not been explained

00:39:25.050 --> 00:39:28.710
is the microbial content of these soils. So there,

00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:32.250
first of all, is an issue of how – two things.

00:39:32.369 --> 00:39:35.610
How large populations get fed in the Amazon and

00:39:35.610 --> 00:39:37.909
– Evidence that there was a culture in the Amazon

00:39:37.909 --> 00:39:40.329
that was capable of manipulating the environment

00:39:40.329 --> 00:39:43.230
in such a way that it could support large populations

00:39:43.230 --> 00:39:45.170
with the invention of terra preta. Secondly,

00:39:45.510 --> 00:39:48.409
new evidence previously not recognized. The Amazon

00:39:48.409 --> 00:39:51.590
is basically a garden. The Amazon is a man -made

00:39:51.590 --> 00:39:55.329
rainforest. There are certain trees like Brazil

00:39:55.329 --> 00:39:58.170
nut trees or the ice cream bean tree, which are

00:39:58.170 --> 00:40:00.769
food crops, which are very, very valuable. And

00:40:00.769 --> 00:40:05.030
they dominate the tree regime in the Amazon.

00:40:05.150 --> 00:40:07.030
They're what's referred to as hyperdominant species.

00:40:07.409 --> 00:40:09.969
In other words, people living in the Amazon over

00:40:09.969 --> 00:40:13.150
thousands of years selected certain trees, which

00:40:13.150 --> 00:40:15.769
they then cultivated and grew. So the whole thing

00:40:15.769 --> 00:40:18.960
is not. simply a wild pristine rainforest. It's

00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:22.320
a very ancient man -made environment. And emerging

00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:24.599
from that man -made environment, as well as evidence

00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.639
of large cities, large populations, and this

00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:33.019
mysterious dark earth, are huge geometrical structures.

00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.940
And again, I go into this at length in America

00:40:35.940 --> 00:40:39.800
before because I love this mystery. We have in

00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:43.510
the UK structures that are called henges. I live

00:40:43.510 --> 00:40:46.070
in the city of Bath and about 30 miles away,

00:40:46.170 --> 00:40:49.630
there's a beautiful site called Avebury and another

00:40:49.630 --> 00:40:52.269
more famous site called Stonehenge. And what

00:40:52.269 --> 00:40:57.309
a henge is, is a ditch which has been dug deep

00:40:57.309 --> 00:40:59.590
and then an embankment has been pushed up outside

00:40:59.590 --> 00:41:01.969
the ditch. When people first saw these structures,

00:41:02.090 --> 00:41:03.769
they wondered if they'd been built for defense.

00:41:04.150 --> 00:41:06.389
But then it became obvious they hadn't been built

00:41:06.389 --> 00:41:09.750
for defense because if you want to create a moat,

00:41:09.909 --> 00:41:13.219
you put it outside your embankment. inside your

00:41:13.219 --> 00:41:16.219
embankment so a hinge is an earthwork which consists

00:41:16.219 --> 00:41:18.980
of a deep moat with a large embankment outside

00:41:18.980 --> 00:41:21.760
it and it can be circular it can be square and

00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:23.639
in the uk and other parts of europe it often

00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:26.739
contains stone circles megalithic stone circles

00:41:26.739 --> 00:41:29.059
as well but the hinge itself is entirely an earthwork

00:41:29.059 --> 00:41:32.860
what we find in the amazon are thousands of hinges

00:41:33.500 --> 00:41:35.719
that are now beginning to emerge from the cleared

00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:37.539
area of the jungle, and others that have been

00:41:37.539 --> 00:41:40.340
identified for the first time with LiDAR. LiDAR

00:41:40.340 --> 00:41:42.320
technology is being employed in the Amazon. It's

00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:44.500
non -destructive. You can see what's under the

00:41:44.500 --> 00:41:47.239
trees. What is LiDAR? Light Imaging and Detective

00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:50.159
Radar. They bounce laser beams down into the

00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:51.699
jungle. It's a whole pattern of them. You need

00:41:51.699 --> 00:41:54.179
helicopters, but it doesn't damage the rainforest.

00:41:54.579 --> 00:41:57.139
And you can strip away and see what's there.

00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:59.300
If this isn't too much of a diversion, let me

00:41:59.300 --> 00:42:02.000
give you the example of Guatemala. Guatemala

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.420
is a small country, if I remember correctly.

00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.019
It's not much more than 100 ,000 square kilometers

00:42:07.019 --> 00:42:11.260
in size. It is filled with intriguing Mayan ruins.

00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:15.280
Everybody has heard of Tikal. What archaeologists

00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:17.360
didn't know was that literally within walking

00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:21.159
distance of Tikal, surrounding that whole area

00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:23.639
were more than 60 ,000 structures that they hadn't

00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:25.699
identified. And these have all been identified

00:42:25.699 --> 00:42:29.440
by LIDAR in a country that's just 100 ,000 kilometers

00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:32.570
in area. So you have to ask yourself, in that

00:42:32.570 --> 00:42:34.929
five and a half million square kilometers of

00:42:34.929 --> 00:42:37.349
the Amazon, if LiDAR technology could be applied

00:42:37.349 --> 00:42:41.050
comprehensively, what would we find beneath there?

00:42:41.250 --> 00:42:43.829
And the evidence already is extremely tempting

00:42:43.829 --> 00:42:48.199
and extremely... And I'm intrigued by these huge

00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:51.860
geometrical figures, which involve primarily

00:42:51.860 --> 00:42:56.199
circles and squares. And they are classic hinges

00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:58.719
in the sense that they are deep ditches surrounded

00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:03.239
by huge embankments. They're extremely geometrical.

00:43:03.260 --> 00:43:05.679
For example, you can find an octagon surrounding

00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.780
a square. At a place called Jakosar in the Amazon,

00:43:08.980 --> 00:43:12.449
you can find a square. perfectly enclosing a

00:43:12.449 --> 00:43:15.090
circle. Now that is an exercise called squaring

00:43:15.090 --> 00:43:19.090
the circle that our academics have given to the

00:43:19.090 --> 00:43:20.849
Greeks. They said the Greeks were the first people

00:43:20.849 --> 00:43:23.469
who performed that exercise. But now we find

00:43:23.469 --> 00:43:25.690
in dated sites in the Amazon that this was being

00:43:25.690 --> 00:43:27.849
done in the Amazon long before the Greeks. What

00:43:27.849 --> 00:43:29.989
are the dates? The earliest dates that have been

00:43:29.989 --> 00:43:32.989
found in these sites now are about 3 ,500 years

00:43:32.989 --> 00:43:35.869
old. About 3 ,500 years old. But the evidence

00:43:35.869 --> 00:43:38.150
is that the sites have been constantly remade.

00:43:38.210 --> 00:43:42.679
And what intrigues me... is what remains in that

00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:44.760
five and a half million square kilometers that

00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.400
has not been investigated yet we are just i think

00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:50.300
looking at the edges of a mystery the archaeologists

00:43:50.300 --> 00:43:52.940
involved who are mainly from finland and also

00:43:52.940 --> 00:43:56.239
from brazil feel the same their estimate is that

00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.159
there are thousands of these structures remaining

00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:00.599
in the jungle and they're open as to how old

00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:03.820
they may ultimately prove to be. The investigation

00:44:03.820 --> 00:44:06.199
needs to be done. But what's fascinating about

00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:10.099
them is this very powerful geometry and astronomy.

00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:12.139
So a number of the sites are perfectly aligned

00:44:12.139 --> 00:44:15.079
to true north, true south, true east, and true

00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:17.099
west. I'm not talking about magnetic north. I'm

00:44:17.099 --> 00:44:19.460
talking about true astronomical north. To do

00:44:19.460 --> 00:44:21.139
that, there's only one way to do it, and that's

00:44:21.139 --> 00:44:23.800
with astronomy. So that tells us that astronomers

00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:26.900
were at work in the Amazon. The geometry is very

00:44:26.900 --> 00:44:29.380
complex and very... precise. That tells us that

00:44:29.380 --> 00:44:31.440
people with geometrical skills were at work in

00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:33.639
the Amazon. And thirdly, the scale of the sites

00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:36.260
of hundreds of meters, gigantic earthworks on

00:44:36.260 --> 00:44:38.559
the scale of hundreds of meters, tells us that

00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:41.059
this was a highly organized project that was

00:44:41.059 --> 00:44:43.719
undertaken on a very large scale by very large

00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.579
numbers of people. It's a wonderful mystery,

00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:50.260
and it deserves much further attention. And yeah,

00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:53.440
that's Jakosar, exactly. The squares, squaring

00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.760
the circles. So you can see the outside embankment,

00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:58.630
and then inside Inside it is the square ditch,

00:44:58.789 --> 00:45:01.230
and then there's another embankment inside that

00:45:01.230 --> 00:45:03.750
and a circle inside that. It's crazy that they

00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:05.710
made a road right through that. Well, a modern

00:45:05.710 --> 00:45:08.130
road, yeah, you know, because there's no respect

00:45:08.130 --> 00:45:12.510
for the ancient world, unfortunately. And there's

00:45:12.510 --> 00:45:14.789
another one. Look at that. Wow, that's incredible.

00:45:15.130 --> 00:45:18.010
So there are thousands of these things. The stuff

00:45:18.010 --> 00:45:20.690
that they found in the Amazon, what imaging technology

00:45:20.690 --> 00:45:25.239
were they using to find? Initially, it was entirely

00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:27.500
found because areas of the rainforest had been

00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:30.099
cleared. Economic interest said, we want to make

00:45:30.099 --> 00:45:32.219
a cattle ranch here, or we want to make a soya

00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:35.210
bean farm here. clear the rainforest. In the

00:45:35.210 --> 00:45:37.070
process of clearing the rainforest, they start

00:45:37.070 --> 00:45:38.849
discovering these earthworks that had previously

00:45:38.849 --> 00:45:42.329
been completely overgrown by the jungle. Then

00:45:42.329 --> 00:45:46.210
the next step was to say, what can we do to find

00:45:46.210 --> 00:45:48.210
out more about this? Obviously, they don't want

00:45:48.210 --> 00:45:51.050
to destroy more jungle. And luckily, we have

00:45:51.050 --> 00:45:53.530
a technology, which is LIDAR, as I mentioned,

00:45:53.610 --> 00:45:56.829
which uses radar. And using LIDAR, they've been

00:45:56.829 --> 00:46:00.210
able to identify many more of these sites and

00:46:00.210 --> 00:46:02.849
then to get to the sites without destroying the

00:46:02.849 --> 00:46:06.130
jungle. and to begin excavations on them and

00:46:06.130 --> 00:46:08.630
to find that they go back, in the cases of the

00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:10.969
ones that have been explored so far, at least

00:46:10.969 --> 00:46:14.750
3 ,000 years. This is an intriguing development,

00:46:14.869 --> 00:46:17.530
completely unexplained in our understanding of

00:46:17.530 --> 00:46:19.909
the Amazon. And what it suggests is a heritage

00:46:19.909 --> 00:46:22.969
of extremely ancient knowledge. You don't wake

00:46:22.969 --> 00:46:25.829
up one morning and create a perfectly geometrical

00:46:25.829 --> 00:46:29.300
square or circular earthwork. perfectly aligned

00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:31.519
to true north, south, east and west on an enormous

00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:33.760
scale. There has to be a background to that.

00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.260
There has to be a reason for doing it. And the

00:46:35.260 --> 00:46:36.960
evidence is none of these sites were lived in.

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:40.420
There's no habitation refuse found in them whatsoever.

00:46:40.780 --> 00:46:44.960
We don't know what they were used for. I make

00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:48.260
the case in America before that they're connected

00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:51.320
to a system of ideas which is found all around

00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:54.679
the world, which is to do with death and the

00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:58.940
afterlife destiny of the soul. And I go into

00:46:58.940 --> 00:47:02.019
the issue of ayahuasca in this book because,

00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:05.679
first of all, ayahuasca is itself another example

00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.820
of Amazonian science. As you and I and many of

00:47:09.820 --> 00:47:13.400
the listeners and viewers know, the active ingredient

00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:17.659
of ayahuasca is DMT, dimethyltryptamine. But

00:47:17.659 --> 00:47:20.820
dimethyltryptamine is not normally accessible

00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:24.199
through the gut. We have to smoke it or vape

00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.320
it to get that. rocket ship to the other side

00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:30.440
of reality. And the journey lasts, what, 10,

00:47:30.539 --> 00:47:32.800
12 minutes, not much more than that, and sometimes

00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:37.559
quite a lot less. What ayahuasca does is it makes

00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.320
DMT available through the gut. The reason it's

00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:42.099
not available through the gut is because of an

00:47:42.099 --> 00:47:44.699
enzyme in the gut called monoamine oxidase, and

00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:48.610
that switches off DMT. on contact the ayahuasca

00:47:48.610 --> 00:47:50.889
vine which is one of the two ingredients of the

00:47:50.889 --> 00:47:53.050
ayahuasca brew the other ingredient is leaves

00:47:53.050 --> 00:47:56.210
that contain DMT the ayahuasca vine contains

00:47:56.210 --> 00:47:59.110
a monoamine oxidase inhibitor which switches

00:47:59.110 --> 00:48:02.409
off the enzyme in the gut and allows the DMT

00:48:02.409 --> 00:48:05.550
to be accessed orally which produces a rather

00:48:05.550 --> 00:48:08.429
different journey from the smoked or vaped DMT

00:48:08.429 --> 00:48:10.489
trip it's a much longer journey it's four or

00:48:10.489 --> 00:48:12.429
five hours it allows you to integrate and to

00:48:12.429 --> 00:48:14.969
and to interrelate with the strange landscapes

00:48:14.969 --> 00:48:17.800
in which you find yourself amongst and the entities

00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:19.800
that you encounter. I'm not making any claims

00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:21.940
about the reality status of those entities, but

00:48:21.940 --> 00:48:24.460
what I am saying, and it's a fact, is that people

00:48:24.460 --> 00:48:26.860
who work with DMT and ayahuasca do encounter

00:48:26.860 --> 00:48:30.000
what they construe to be entities who communicate

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:33.219
with them intelligently. So somebody in the Amazon,

00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:36.059
out of 150 ,000 different species of plants and

00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:39.139
trees, selected two that are not psychoactive

00:48:39.139 --> 00:48:42.300
on their own, but when put together, create an

00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:46.880
extraordinary visionary brew. And ayahuasca means

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:49.539
the vine of the dead. And what it's connected

00:48:49.539 --> 00:48:53.619
to in South American religious and spiritual

00:48:53.619 --> 00:48:58.869
thinking is what happens to us when we die. And

00:48:58.869 --> 00:49:02.789
the Tucano, who are an Amazonian people who work

00:49:02.789 --> 00:49:05.650
regularly with ayahuasca, I mean the Tucano actually

00:49:05.650 --> 00:49:08.469
will give a teaspoonful of ayahuasca to a newborn

00:49:08.469 --> 00:49:11.570
infant. They feel ayahuasca is so important that

00:49:11.570 --> 00:49:13.769
there is a hidden realm around us which we are

00:49:13.769 --> 00:49:15.849
not normally aware of and we need to be aware

00:49:15.849 --> 00:49:18.429
of it. And ayahuasca is an important part of

00:49:18.429 --> 00:49:21.849
that. In their ayahuasca journeys, the Tucano

00:49:21.849 --> 00:49:24.250
shamans experience visions and they will then

00:49:24.250 --> 00:49:27.119
come back to an alert. normal problem -solving

00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.780
state of consciousness, and they will paint and

00:49:28.780 --> 00:49:30.619
depict their visions. And what's intriguing,

00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:32.500
and I go into it in the book, is that quite a

00:49:32.500 --> 00:49:35.039
number of the Tucano paintings of the other world,

00:49:35.260 --> 00:49:38.039
of the afterlife realm, of the entrance to the

00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:41.139
other world, are geometrical, and they look exactly

00:49:41.139 --> 00:49:43.579
like the geoglyphs. So I'm beginning to wonder

00:49:43.579 --> 00:49:46.260
whether these geoglyphs were part of a system

00:49:46.260 --> 00:49:50.099
of spiritual ideas concerning what happens to

00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:52.880
us after death and what we need to do in this

00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:55.860
life to ensure a beneficial outcome. And oddly

00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:58.840
enough, that same system of ideas is found in

00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:01.519
the Mississippi Valley. In the Amazon, it involves

00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:04.800
particularly ayahuasca and the belief that the

00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:06.639
ayahuasca journey takes you to the afterlife

00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.619
realm and a journey along the Milky Way. In the

00:50:09.619 --> 00:50:13.309
Mississippi Valley… The mound builder sites up

00:50:13.309 --> 00:50:14.849
and down the Mississippi Valley, particularly

00:50:14.849 --> 00:50:18.550
Moundville in Alabama, exactly the same system

00:50:18.550 --> 00:50:21.150
of religious ideas associated with geometrical

00:50:21.150 --> 00:50:24.489
constructions. That on death, the soul, they're

00:50:24.489 --> 00:50:26.769
very specific, ascends to the constellation of

00:50:26.769 --> 00:50:29.409
Orion, transits from the constellation of Orion

00:50:29.409 --> 00:50:32.230
to the Milky Way, makes a journey along the Milky

00:50:32.230 --> 00:50:35.590
Way, which they call the path of souls, and encounters

00:50:35.590 --> 00:50:38.530
challenges and ordeals where the soul must account

00:50:38.530 --> 00:50:42.429
for the life that it has lived. Then we go to

00:50:42.429 --> 00:50:45.309
Egypt, and what do we find? The same system of

00:50:45.309 --> 00:50:48.650
ideas. The soul must rise up to the constellation

00:50:48.650 --> 00:50:50.769
of Orion. There's a narrow shaft cut through

00:50:50.769 --> 00:50:52.730
the southern side of the Great Pyramid of Giza,

00:50:52.809 --> 00:50:55.070
which targets directly the lowest of the three

00:50:55.070 --> 00:50:58.599
stars of Orion's belt. widely accepted as a star

00:50:58.599 --> 00:51:01.320
shaft or a soul shaft. The soul would rise up

00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:03.280
through that shaft, get to the constellation

00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:05.400
of Orion, which stands by the banks of the Milky

00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:07.659
Way. It would then transit to the Milky Way,

00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:09.340
which the ancient Egyptians called the winding

00:51:09.340 --> 00:51:12.039
waterway. And it would make a journey along the

00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:14.719
Milky Way where it would be confronted by challenges

00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.119
and ordeals. Very similar idea to the Tucano,

00:51:17.260 --> 00:51:19.460
very similar idea to the Mississippi Valley.

00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:21.659
As far as we know, none of these cultures were

00:51:21.659 --> 00:51:24.059
in contact with one another. Either we're dealing

00:51:24.059 --> 00:51:26.860
with a huge, unbelievable... extraordinarily

00:51:26.860 --> 00:51:30.139
detailed coincidence involving architecture and

00:51:30.139 --> 00:51:33.639
ideas, or we're looking at the legacy that was

00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:36.260
inherited in all of these different places from

00:51:36.260 --> 00:51:38.699
a remote common ancestor. And I believe that

00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:40.280
that's what we're looking at. What do we think

00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:42.559
the people from the ancient Mississippi Valley,

00:51:42.659 --> 00:51:44.539
that culture, what do we think they were using

00:51:44.539 --> 00:51:46.960
if they weren't using ayahuasca? Or do we think

00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:49.699
that's what they were using? Well, that's an

00:51:49.699 --> 00:51:53.010
interesting... question whether visionary substances

00:51:53.010 --> 00:51:56.449
are the only way to get into altered states of

00:51:56.449 --> 00:52:00.210
consciousness and I would say they are definitely

00:52:00.210 --> 00:52:02.750
not of course there are visionary substances

00:52:02.750 --> 00:52:06.550
which are used in Native American vision quests

00:52:06.550 --> 00:52:11.199
I've had the privilege of peyote ceremony uh

00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:13.739
with the native american church um i've never

00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:15.980
done that what is that like i loved it actually

00:52:15.980 --> 00:52:18.019
i thought i thought it was i thought it was amazing

00:52:18.019 --> 00:52:20.880
it it doesn't overpower you in the way that dmt

00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:23.719
or ayahuasca does uh it's it's it's much gentler

00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:25.699
it's much more you feel much more integrated

00:52:25.699 --> 00:52:27.840
and connected with with with nature your thought

00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:30.940
processes are quite are quite clear it felt it

00:52:30.940 --> 00:52:32.800
felt just like a very beautiful and healing experience

00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:34.800
and i love the ceremony that i'm in i'm inside

00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:37.619
a teepee with with 30 or 40 other people and

00:52:37.619 --> 00:52:39.840
that there are there are specific roles that

00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:41.480
are assigned to those different individuals one

00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:43.159
will keep the door another will be responsible

00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:45.539
for the fire which is a work of art in itself

00:52:45.539 --> 00:52:48.219
just gazing into that fire and the glowing the

00:52:48.219 --> 00:52:50.719
glowing embers is enough to induce an altered

00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:53.179
state of consciousness on its own incredible

00:52:53.179 --> 00:52:56.099
drumming which which drives your state of consciousness

00:52:56.099 --> 00:53:00.300
into a kind of peak This is a technology for

00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:04.000
accessing other levels of experience and other

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:05.840
levels of reality. And it's clear that the Native

00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.699
Americans had a number of advanced technologies

00:53:08.699 --> 00:53:11.579
in this area. The Sundance doesn't use a substance,

00:53:11.780 --> 00:53:14.860
but it uses austerity. It uses pain to drive

00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:16.619
an altered state of consciousness. The objective

00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:20.090
in every case seems to be let's. just for a while,

00:53:20.130 --> 00:53:22.869
get ourselves out of the narrow, rigid frame

00:53:22.869 --> 00:53:24.969
of the alert, problem -solving state of consciousness.

00:53:25.090 --> 00:53:27.250
We all need that. It's incredibly useful. Hunter

00:53:27.250 --> 00:53:29.170
-gatherers need it just as much as people in

00:53:29.170 --> 00:53:32.429
cities need it. But it's not the only state of

00:53:32.429 --> 00:53:34.369
consciousness available to human beings. And

00:53:34.369 --> 00:53:36.110
maybe that's one of the big mistakes that we're

00:53:36.110 --> 00:53:41.570
making in our culture and was not made in shamanistic

00:53:41.570 --> 00:53:46.159
societies. That is a really interesting breakdown

00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:47.900
that maybe that is one of the big mistakes we're

00:53:47.900 --> 00:53:49.820
making in our culture. When people point to the

00:53:49.820 --> 00:53:51.619
problems that we have in this country, one of

00:53:51.619 --> 00:53:54.119
the problems we have is our inability to connect

00:53:54.119 --> 00:53:56.420
with each other or to recognize that we're all

00:53:56.420 --> 00:53:58.920
sharing this space and time together and instead

00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:02.400
wanting to uphold our own religious or ideological

00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:05.360
ideas as being the only one way to get going.

00:54:05.500 --> 00:54:07.659
Yeah. The only one way to get through. And one

00:54:07.659 --> 00:54:10.300
of the things that I've found. These psychedelic

00:54:10.300 --> 00:54:15.280
experiences, it really makes ideologies seem,

00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:18.559
if not preposterous, at the very least insignificant

00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:21.619
in comparison to human experiences. The experience

00:54:21.619 --> 00:54:26.800
of camaraderie and friendship and love, you realize,

00:54:26.860 --> 00:54:28.760
oh, this is what's important. This is what it's

00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:33.219
really about. Not enforcing your ideas or pushing

00:54:33.219 --> 00:54:35.599
them on other people and forcing people to behave

00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:39.739
the way you behave, but instead, love. religious

00:54:39.739 --> 00:54:42.900
ideas which cause so much division, so much chaos,

00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:45.579
so much hatred, so much fear, so much suspicion

00:54:45.579 --> 00:54:50.079
in the world today. Is it really what we want

00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:52.860
to do as human beings? Simply to accept a package

00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:55.800
of ideas that were believed in? by our ancestors,

00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:59.000
to accept them whole, without question, as absolute

00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:02.079
fact, which we regard as such authoritative fact

00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:04.940
that in some cases we're willing to be deeply

00:55:04.940 --> 00:55:06.760
unpleasant to people who hold different views

00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:09.980
or perhaps even kill them. We've had this recent

00:55:09.980 --> 00:55:15.019
event in Sri Lanka, primarily a religiously motivated

00:55:15.019 --> 00:55:17.880
terrorist event. It happens all over the world.

00:55:17.900 --> 00:55:20.739
People feel so convinced. that the inherited

00:55:20.739 --> 00:55:23.079
package of ideas that they had nothing to do

00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:25.559
with creating and that they have never questioned,

00:55:25.820 --> 00:55:27.980
they're so convinced that those ideas are right

00:55:27.980 --> 00:55:29.840
that in extreme cases they're actually prepared

00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:33.019
to kill other human beings who hold different

00:55:33.019 --> 00:55:37.400
ideas. Are they so insecure in their own beliefs

00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:40.159
that they're prepared to go to that level of

00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:42.920
actually murdering another human being? They're

00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:44.719
so threatened by the other beliefs that other

00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:47.280
human beings hold. So it's an abnegation of our

00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:49.940
responsibility as human beings. should be questioning

00:55:49.940 --> 00:55:52.239
things. We should not be accepting packages of

00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:55.059
ideas intact, fully formed, and using them to

00:55:55.059 --> 00:55:57.559
drive the way we behave towards one another.

00:55:57.760 --> 00:55:59.820
That was part of the human story, but we need

00:55:59.820 --> 00:56:02.400
to move on from that. It's a very dangerous situation

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:05.099
in a very complex modern world with billions

00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:07.639
of human beings on the planet to have these kind

00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:09.460
of energies being generated where certain groups

00:56:09.460 --> 00:56:11.559
of people are saying, we are absolutely right,

00:56:11.659 --> 00:56:14.179
and you are absolutely wrong. We are superior.

00:56:14.420 --> 00:56:17.619
You are inferior. This is a very, very dangerous

00:56:17.619 --> 00:56:20.250
path. that we're on and it needs to be changed.

00:56:20.869 --> 00:56:24.550
Personally, I know this is not a comment that

00:56:24.550 --> 00:56:26.469
will go down well with many people, but I am

00:56:26.469 --> 00:56:29.469
strongly opposed to nationalism. I don't see

00:56:29.469 --> 00:56:32.429
any virtue in nationalism. It is an accident

00:56:32.429 --> 00:56:35.789
of birth, which nation you were born in. It was

00:56:35.789 --> 00:56:37.769
nothing that you did for your own merit. You

00:56:37.769 --> 00:56:41.030
didn't earn that. You were born by accident in

00:56:41.030 --> 00:56:44.000
a particular nation. Why should we automatically

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:46.380
feel that other people who were born by accident

00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:48.579
in that particular nation have something special

00:56:48.579 --> 00:56:50.579
in common with us and that we together are a

00:56:50.579 --> 00:56:52.239
group who are much more important than other

00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:54.320
groups of people? I've been privileged to spend

00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:57.079
my life traveling around the world. living with

00:56:57.079 --> 00:56:59.980
communities all over the world. And one thing

00:56:59.980 --> 00:57:02.699
that really comes across to me strongly, it should

00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:05.539
be a cliche, and yet it's not, is that we are

00:57:05.539 --> 00:57:08.480
all one family, that humans are intimately interconnected

00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:10.760
all around the world, that you can go to the

00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:13.780
remotest area of the Amazon jungle and find the

00:57:13.780 --> 00:57:17.219
same hopes, the same fears, the same dreams that

00:57:17.219 --> 00:57:19.719
we have in industrialized cities shared by the

00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:21.820
hunter -gatherers in the middle of the Amazon.

00:57:23.309 --> 00:57:25.889
Our similarities as human beings and what we

00:57:25.889 --> 00:57:28.150
share in common at the emotional level and the

00:57:28.150 --> 00:57:30.769
level of love and at the level of heart are far

00:57:30.769 --> 00:57:33.309
more important than our differences that are

00:57:33.309 --> 00:57:35.409
defined by the nation or the political group

00:57:35.409 --> 00:57:38.969
in which we grew up in. And when I say I'm against

00:57:38.969 --> 00:57:41.769
nationalism, I need also to make clear that does

00:57:41.769 --> 00:57:45.409
not mean, and I hope I'm not taken out of context

00:57:45.409 --> 00:57:47.530
by others who are listening to this, that does

00:57:47.530 --> 00:57:50.800
not mean I'm in favor. of world government. I

00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:53.159
detest governments. That's another thing we need

00:57:53.159 --> 00:57:55.800
to grow out of. We don't need governments anymore.

00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:58.139
If we have them, they should have a very minimal

00:57:58.139 --> 00:58:01.019
role in our society. I think it's possible for

00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:03.699
the human race to relate as one family without

00:58:03.699 --> 00:58:06.840
leaders and governments who are exploiting the

00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:09.000
worst aspects of our character, the lowest common

00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:11.780
denominator of our society, deliberately encouraging

00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:14.460
fears and hatreds and suspicion. What responsible

00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:17.780
leaders should be doing is encouraging love and

00:58:17.780 --> 00:58:21.260
unity. And their failure to do that, in my view,

00:58:21.420 --> 00:58:24.840
disqualifies them from the leadership role entirely.

00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:28.920
And that's why I've often said I would like to

00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.980
see a situation in which no head of state can

00:58:31.980 --> 00:58:34.340
be appointed to that position unless he or she

00:58:34.340 --> 00:58:37.920
has first had 12 sessions of ayahuasca. That

00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:41.800
would be the condition. Don't even bother applying

00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:44.070
for the job. if you haven't done this. And we

00:58:44.070 --> 00:58:45.789
have to be there where you have it. And we have

00:58:45.789 --> 00:58:48.230
to be. We want to see that you're drinking every

00:58:48.230 --> 00:58:51.630
drop. And we want an experienced shaman present

00:58:51.630 --> 00:58:53.969
who's really going to guide you through the journey.

00:58:54.250 --> 00:58:56.230
And I suspect that that would be a transformative

00:58:56.230 --> 00:58:59.409
experience for many of our political class and

00:58:59.409 --> 00:59:01.869
that they would start to question why they do

00:59:01.869 --> 00:59:04.570
what they do, why they exploit fears in order

00:59:04.570 --> 00:59:06.570
to magnify their own position. They'd start to

00:59:06.570 --> 00:59:08.449
question that and to wonder about a different

00:59:08.449 --> 00:59:10.489
destiny for humanity. But that's a dream. I guess

00:59:10.489 --> 00:59:12.190
it's not going to happen. It's very, very, very

00:59:12.190 --> 00:59:14.969
well said and i couldn't agree more my hope is

00:59:14.969 --> 00:59:17.110
that what you were saying and what we were discussing

00:59:17.110 --> 00:59:19.269
earlier about how the internet has sort of eroded

00:59:19.269 --> 00:59:23.710
our faith in many institutions as being the only

00:59:23.710 --> 00:59:26.809
or the primary source of knowledge that i hope

00:59:26.809 --> 00:59:29.989
that that takes place globally in terms of the

00:59:29.989 --> 00:59:32.630
way we view government yeah and that we do and

00:59:32.630 --> 00:59:35.269
that your idea of like i love what america stands

00:59:35.269 --> 00:59:37.969
for and what america stands for is kind of a

00:59:37.969 --> 00:59:42.650
nation that's where people go to. This is one

00:59:42.650 --> 00:59:46.250
of the more insidious problems with this idea

00:59:46.250 --> 00:59:48.610
of building walls and keeping people out and

00:59:48.610 --> 00:59:51.409
making it incredibly difficult to get here. The

00:59:51.409 --> 00:59:53.510
reason why I'm here is because it was pretty

00:59:53.510 --> 00:59:56.469
easy to get here. That's why I'm here. That's

00:59:56.469 --> 00:59:58.829
the essence of America. A free and open society.

00:59:59.110 --> 01:00:01.050
Come here and do better. That's the whole idea

01:00:01.050 --> 01:00:05.230
behind it. I would hope that this idea of being

01:00:05.230 --> 01:00:08.440
able to just... If you want to do better, you

01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:11.420
can anywhere in the world. This could eventually

01:00:11.420 --> 01:00:14.940
spread out. This is my hope. I believe it can

01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:20.519
spread out. And I see many signs of hope in America.

01:00:21.750 --> 01:00:24.230
America has become a big part of my life, not

01:00:24.230 --> 01:00:26.949
just because I wrote this book, but because I

01:00:26.949 --> 01:00:29.190
have children who are now living in America.

01:00:29.250 --> 01:00:31.610
I have a son and daughter -in -law who live in

01:00:31.610 --> 01:00:33.349
L .A. I have another son and daughter -in -law

01:00:33.349 --> 01:00:36.889
who live in Boston. I'm British, but America

01:00:36.889 --> 01:00:39.170
has become a very central part of my life, and

01:00:39.170 --> 01:00:41.389
it's a fascinating and amazing country, and it's

01:00:41.389 --> 01:00:43.800
been my privilege to travel. thousands of miles

01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:45.940
across America, across many, many, many different

01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:48.920
states. And I love this country. It's an amazing

01:00:48.920 --> 01:00:53.480
place. Only in America could we see happening

01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:56.179
what has happened with cannabis. You know, the

01:00:56.179 --> 01:00:59.659
fact that at a local level, individuals have

01:00:59.659 --> 01:01:02.500
got together, mobilized petitions, organized

01:01:02.500 --> 01:01:06.320
votes, and changed the law. changed the law,

01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.239
literally stuck a finger up at central government

01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:12.199
and said, fuck off. This is none of your business.

01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:14.639
What I do with my consciousness in the inner

01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:17.159
sanctum of my own life is not the business of

01:01:17.159 --> 01:01:19.739
the state. That's a very American feeling. It's

01:01:19.739 --> 01:01:21.599
something that you don't find often in other

01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:23.579
countries where the state is granted much more.

01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:26.219
power and much more authority than it perhaps

01:01:26.219 --> 01:01:28.480
should be americans are naturally questioning

01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:32.000
of government authority and that has that is

01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:35.360
what has led to the uh legalization increasing

01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:37.699
legalization of cannabis which is going to change

01:01:37.699 --> 01:01:39.820
the world in lots of ways but then ironically

01:01:39.820 --> 01:01:44.440
at the same time see the thing about democracies

01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:50.389
is that in order to um get things done in a democracy,

01:01:50.590 --> 01:01:52.809
you need to persuade people of your point of

01:01:52.809 --> 01:01:55.309
view. So information becomes very important in

01:01:55.309 --> 01:01:58.190
democracies. And information can be abused. People

01:01:58.190 --> 01:02:01.289
can be misled with information. They can be told

01:02:01.289 --> 01:02:03.130
that what they're receiving is the truth, whereas

01:02:03.130 --> 01:02:05.570
in fact, it's not the truth. And you can end

01:02:05.570 --> 01:02:07.829
up with a kind of dictatorship that the people

01:02:07.829 --> 01:02:10.369
have given their assent to on the basis of false

01:02:10.369 --> 01:02:12.309
information. And frankly, I'd rather have a real

01:02:12.309 --> 01:02:15.369
dictatorship, which is out in the open and clear,

01:02:15.510 --> 01:02:18.070
rather than one that has been subtly manipulated

01:02:18.070 --> 01:02:21.849
into position through manipulating the views

01:02:21.849 --> 01:02:27.159
of the voters. and remain enormously encouraged

01:02:27.159 --> 01:02:29.519
by America. It may seem like a trivial issue,

01:02:29.659 --> 01:02:32.679
but the fact that state by state cannabis is

01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:35.079
being legalized and that is resulting from a

01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:37.980
grassroots movement, that this enormous change

01:02:37.980 --> 01:02:40.420
has been made. It's ironic, it's strange that

01:02:40.420 --> 01:02:42.679
at the federal level, even though what, eight

01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:45.920
states now totally legal for recreational, 23,

01:02:46.219 --> 01:02:49.119
24 states legal for medical use, that at the

01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:50.880
federal level, it's still a schedule one controlled

01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:54.280
drug. This is a huge state of dissonance that

01:02:54.280 --> 01:02:55.940
exists. And America is going to have to put it

01:02:55.940 --> 01:02:58.539
right. What it says to me is that people can

01:02:58.539 --> 01:03:00.860
change things. People can get together at the

01:03:00.860 --> 01:03:03.199
local level and they can make a better world

01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:04.760
because there's no doubt that the cannabis laws

01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:07.519
were vicious and wrong and cruel and evil and

01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:11.619
ruined people's lives for decades. And it's people

01:03:11.619 --> 01:03:13.340
who've changed that. It's not government who's

01:03:13.340 --> 01:03:14.679
changed that. It's the people at the grassroots

01:03:14.679 --> 01:03:16.659
level. America is a country where that can happen.

01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:20.619
I remain encouraged about the role of the American

01:03:20.619 --> 01:03:23.619
people, while often in despair about the role

01:03:23.619 --> 01:03:47.800
of the American state. How many people who are

01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:50.760
white people have profited off of this and how

01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:54.780
many people are still in jail for crimes that

01:03:54.780 --> 01:03:57.460
they committed, you know, air quote crimes that

01:03:57.460 --> 01:03:59.380
are no longer crimes. That are no longer crimes.

01:03:59.460 --> 01:04:02.739
Yeah. And this is ridiculous. These records should

01:04:02.739 --> 01:04:04.579
be expunged. They should be completely expunged.

01:04:04.599 --> 01:04:06.599
I see that California has made some steps in

01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:08.260
that direction. There has been some expunging

01:04:08.260 --> 01:04:10.360
of records. Well, we can only hope that also

01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:14.219
what opens up next is. Psilocybin is now going

01:04:14.219 --> 01:04:16.139
to be on the ballot. Absolutely. And when that

01:04:16.139 --> 01:04:18.360
opens up, I mean, you really think marijuana

01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:20.800
is a gateway drug? Well, guess what? It is if

01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:23.500
psilocybin gets in. Yes. Because psilocybin can

01:04:23.500 --> 01:04:25.719
legitimately change the world. It certainly can.

01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:28.280
I mean, I think marijuana can change the world,

01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:30.159
and I really do think that cannabis is changing

01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:33.099
people's perceptions and making people more calm

01:04:33.099 --> 01:04:36.679
and friendly. And even what they talk about with

01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:39.739
paranoia, I welcome that. And the reason why

01:04:39.739 --> 01:04:41.400
I welcome that is I think people are entirely

01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:44.699
too cocky. Yeah. The life we live is bizarre

01:04:44.699 --> 01:04:47.619
as you could ever imagine in a book. And we're

01:04:47.619 --> 01:04:49.519
just accustomed to it because it's our day -to

01:04:49.519 --> 01:04:50.920
-day existence. Take it all for granted. Yeah.

01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:53.500
Marijuana removes those blinders. It does. And

01:04:53.500 --> 01:04:56.179
it really makes you understand that this is a

01:04:56.179 --> 01:05:01.019
strange, strange life. A lot of these pitfalls

01:05:01.019 --> 01:05:03.079
and problems that we have in our society are

01:05:03.079 --> 01:05:06.159
due to fear. And they're due to ignorance. And

01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:08.860
they're due to this lack of connection with each

01:05:08.860 --> 01:05:11.559
other. And cannabis and many of these other psychedelic

01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:14.340
drugs. They encourage this connection with each

01:05:14.340 --> 01:05:16.420
other, which is, I think, what we need. It's

01:05:16.420 --> 01:05:19.480
certainly what we need. And it's an aberration

01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:21.639
in human culture that we've created a society

01:05:21.639 --> 01:05:24.219
that demonized these substances and made them

01:05:24.219 --> 01:05:26.260
illegal. It's a relatively recent thing. It's

01:05:26.260 --> 01:05:29.400
really just the last hundred years. It's a tiny

01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:31.900
part of the human story. And yet we're so arrogant

01:05:31.900 --> 01:05:35.219
as a society that we set aside thousands of years

01:05:35.219 --> 01:05:37.780
of human tradition and experience and wisdom

01:05:37.780 --> 01:05:40.409
working with the plant medicines. Set it aside,

01:05:40.650 --> 01:05:43.250
turn them into criminal substances and say we

01:05:43.250 --> 01:05:46.630
know everything. What a huge and stupid mistake

01:05:46.630 --> 01:05:51.269
that is on cannabis as a quote -unquote gateway

01:05:51.269 --> 01:05:54.699
drug. It absolutely is in this sense that the

01:05:54.699 --> 01:05:57.119
legalization of cannabis is going to open the

01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:00.599
doors, as you say, to the legalization of psychedelics.

01:06:00.619 --> 01:06:02.440
Because what's happening is that the population

01:06:02.440 --> 01:06:05.659
is completely waking up to the fact that they

01:06:05.659 --> 01:06:09.219
have been bullshitted and lied to about cannabis

01:06:09.219 --> 01:06:12.659
for the best part of a century. And once that

01:06:12.659 --> 01:06:15.920
dawns on people, the realization at a direct

01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:18.659
personal level, here's this herb I love, I have

01:06:18.659 --> 01:06:23.239
been lied to. systematically misinformed by central

01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:26.619
government about this about this herb that leads

01:06:26.619 --> 01:06:29.000
to questioning of everything that central government

01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:31.340
does and so in that sense it is a gateway to

01:06:31.340 --> 01:06:34.480
a questioning society the psychedelics are different

01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:39.460
in that in that psilocybin actually does lead

01:06:39.460 --> 01:06:42.000
you to question stuff. It leads you to really

01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:45.420
ask questions about everything, about your role

01:06:45.420 --> 01:06:47.380
in the world, about you as a person, about how

01:06:47.380 --> 01:06:49.539
you relate to other people, and about the whole

01:06:49.539 --> 01:06:52.519
system on this planet and the beautiful, gorgeous

01:06:52.519 --> 01:06:55.059
planet that we have and what we're doing to it.

01:06:56.030 --> 01:06:58.929
enters enters awareness so it erodes confidence

01:06:58.929 --> 01:07:01.329
and authority and it also erodes confidence and

01:07:01.329 --> 01:07:03.130
authority that doesn't have experiences that

01:07:03.130 --> 01:07:04.949
you've experienced exactly that's the part of

01:07:04.949 --> 01:07:06.510
the problem is that these people that are holding

01:07:06.510 --> 01:07:08.710
people back from these psychedelic experiences

01:07:08.710 --> 01:07:10.949
they've never had them they've never had they

01:07:10.949 --> 01:07:13.110
don't even know what they're rallying they're

01:07:13.110 --> 01:07:14.889
coming to it from a place of fear and prejudice

01:07:14.889 --> 01:07:17.849
uh they're simply accepting stuff that they've

01:07:17.849 --> 01:07:19.570
been told without really thinking it through

01:07:19.570 --> 01:07:22.369
and and and examining it and again it's a failure

01:07:22.369 --> 01:07:25.500
of of what human beings should should be doing.

01:07:25.579 --> 01:07:27.880
We have to get rid of this fear. And ironically,

01:07:28.019 --> 01:07:30.639
it's bad for them as well. It's bad for the people

01:07:30.639 --> 01:07:33.539
that are actually encouraging these laws to be

01:07:33.539 --> 01:07:37.260
enforced. Yes. It's bad for the whole of society

01:07:37.260 --> 01:07:41.860
because it is healthy for a society where adults

01:07:41.860 --> 01:07:44.599
become self -realized individuals, where they

01:07:44.599 --> 01:07:47.260
make their own responsible choices about their

01:07:47.260 --> 01:07:49.659
own lives, where they don't say, oh, government

01:07:49.659 --> 01:07:52.500
must make this choice for me. That's the next

01:07:52.500 --> 01:07:55.110
step for humanity. We need to start becoming

01:07:55.110 --> 01:07:59.389
our own leaders and making our own choices. And

01:07:59.389 --> 01:08:02.030
that is what's being revealed now that we're

01:08:02.030 --> 01:08:04.409
getting to the skull beneath the smile of the

01:08:04.409 --> 01:08:06.690
war on drugs. We're realizing that it's part

01:08:06.690 --> 01:08:10.110
of a big program of lying that has been about...

01:08:10.329 --> 01:08:13.150
keeping people's minds closed down, not wanting

01:08:13.150 --> 01:08:15.489
free thinking. I've made this point several times,

01:08:15.590 --> 01:08:17.590
but our society is not against altered states

01:08:17.590 --> 01:08:20.970
of consciousness as such. Our society will allow

01:08:20.970 --> 01:08:23.729
big pharma to make billions of dollars with drugs

01:08:23.729 --> 01:08:26.250
that alter consciousness like Seroxat and Prozac

01:08:26.250 --> 01:08:28.470
antidepressants, which in my opinion, having

01:08:28.470 --> 01:08:30.649
had some experience of them, are amongst the

01:08:30.649 --> 01:08:34.640
most horrible drugs. They are very harmful, very

01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:36.359
dangerous drugs, but they're completely legal

01:08:36.359 --> 01:08:38.439
and they're encouraged with our system. Likewise,

01:08:38.560 --> 01:08:41.640
alcohol, very dangerous drug, causes fights,

01:08:41.920 --> 01:08:44.399
causes drunk driving accidents, leads to cirrhosis

01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:46.939
of the liver, completely legal and open. Our

01:08:46.939 --> 01:08:49.220
society is not against altered states of consciousness.

01:08:49.420 --> 01:08:51.739
As such, it's against particular kinds of altered

01:08:51.739 --> 01:08:53.720
states of consciousness that lead to questioning

01:08:53.720 --> 01:08:57.699
of the existing control system. That's what's

01:08:57.699 --> 01:09:01.619
going on here. Hear, hear. Well said. And as

01:09:01.619 --> 01:09:04.619
you know, I have my own story with cannabis.

01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:07.960
Yes, well, you and I had a moment. We had a moment,

01:09:08.020 --> 01:09:10.739
which was quite a life -changing moment for me,

01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:12.760
because if I may just rehearse a little bit of

01:09:12.760 --> 01:09:18.079
this for the audience. In 2011, I had a series

01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:21.159
of ayahuasca sessions. in which it was shown

01:09:21.159 --> 01:09:24.100
to me that I was using cannabis completely wrong,

01:09:24.300 --> 01:09:27.760
that it had become a dominant force in my life,

01:09:27.859 --> 01:09:29.659
that it was making me, you're speaking about

01:09:29.659 --> 01:09:31.800
paranoia, and I agree with you, paranoia is a

01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:34.159
useful thing, if only to overcome it, that it

01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:35.739
was making me paranoid, that it was making me

01:09:35.739 --> 01:09:37.680
suspicious, that I approached everybody around

01:09:37.680 --> 01:09:40.779
me in a state of suspicion. And I was shown this

01:09:40.779 --> 01:09:44.020
by ayahuasca, and given a very strong message,

01:09:44.060 --> 01:09:47.890
you need to quit cannabis. What I didn't realize

01:09:47.890 --> 01:09:50.489
at the time is that the problem was not cannabis.

01:09:50.590 --> 01:09:54.590
The problem was me, that I needed to fix those

01:09:54.590 --> 01:09:57.149
aspects of myself before I could have a proper

01:09:57.149 --> 01:09:59.569
relationship with cannabis. So after that ayahuasca

01:09:59.569 --> 01:10:02.189
session, having smoked cannabis for decades,

01:10:02.609 --> 01:10:05.850
literally 16 hours a day, seven days a week,

01:10:05.930 --> 01:10:08.930
I quit. I quit for three years. And then I'm

01:10:08.930 --> 01:10:12.149
on your show. And we're sitting opposite one

01:10:12.149 --> 01:10:14.229
another as we are now. And you asked me a question.

01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:17.380
are you still off the cannabis? And I say, well,

01:10:17.479 --> 01:10:19.479
I'm thinking of dipping my toes back in the water,

01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:23.159
at which point you produce a joint and we smoke

01:10:23.159 --> 01:10:27.180
it together. First of all, after three years,

01:10:27.260 --> 01:10:29.600
your tolerance is way down on cannabis. So I

01:10:29.600 --> 01:10:32.260
got really stoned. I did listen to that interview

01:10:32.260 --> 01:10:34.300
back and somehow I held it together. Oh, you

01:10:34.300 --> 01:10:36.600
held it together brilliantly. You opened up and

01:10:36.600 --> 01:10:38.979
it was like a wave of information came pouring

01:10:38.979 --> 01:10:40.979
out of you. It was wonderful to watch. It was

01:10:40.979 --> 01:10:43.199
a liberation for me. And what it said to me is,

01:10:43.680 --> 01:10:46.460
It's time to go back to cannabis, but perhaps

01:10:46.460 --> 01:10:49.439
in a different way. I need a different relationship

01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:52.500
with this amazing medicine. And if I can forge

01:10:52.500 --> 01:10:54.180
that, if I can make that different relationship

01:10:54.180 --> 01:10:56.920
happen, then it can be a constructive and positive

01:10:56.920 --> 01:10:59.279
part of my life. And I can say definitely that

01:10:59.279 --> 01:11:01.399
that has been the case. That's excellent. And

01:11:01.399 --> 01:11:03.000
so it's all thanks to you, Joe. I probably would

01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:04.600
still be off cannabis if it hadn't been for that

01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:07.359
joint. Well, I think people can develop these

01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:09.600
patterns of behavior that are destructive with

01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:11.500
anything, whether it's with alcohol or cannabis.

01:11:11.979 --> 01:11:15.619
Yes. sex or anything people get they get in ruts

01:11:15.619 --> 01:11:18.060
yeah and you know it doesn't mean that the cannabis

01:11:18.060 --> 01:11:20.239
is bad this means that you are on a bad mental

01:11:20.239 --> 01:11:23.119
path yes you know exactly and i mean i'm not

01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:24.979
encouraging it for everybody because some people

01:11:24.979 --> 01:11:27.600
genuinely biologically doesn't jive with them

01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:30.840
yeah yeah But the fundamental thing is we as

01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:32.720
adult human beings need to take responsibility

01:11:32.720 --> 01:11:35.859
for our own lives and our own decisions. And

01:11:35.859 --> 01:11:38.239
we need not hand that responsibility over to

01:11:38.239 --> 01:11:40.579
governmental institutions, especially when it

01:11:40.579 --> 01:11:44.079
concerns something as intimate and personal as

01:11:44.079 --> 01:11:46.880
our consciousness. And my view is the ancient

01:11:46.880 --> 01:11:50.079
world had the right attitude to this kind of

01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:53.000
thing. And the modern world does not. And that

01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:56.060
we can sit down and learn a lot from the ancient

01:11:56.060 --> 01:12:00.260
world. You know, Hancock, you've been arguing

01:12:00.260 --> 01:12:02.880
that there's been a lost civilization in the

01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:07.050
human story. But what sort of civilization? Do

01:12:07.050 --> 01:12:08.949
you think it was? Well, one of the things I think

01:12:08.949 --> 01:12:11.130
is it was a civilization that used psychedelics.

01:12:11.229 --> 01:12:13.489
I think it was a civilization that emerged from

01:12:13.489 --> 01:12:16.170
shamanism but did not stay at the hunter -gatherer

01:12:16.170 --> 01:12:18.270
stage but that took the essence of shamanism

01:12:18.270 --> 01:12:20.689
and integrated it into a very different kind

01:12:20.689 --> 01:12:23.409
of civilization from our own which pursued things

01:12:23.409 --> 01:12:25.529
in different ways. A lot of archaeologists have

01:12:25.529 --> 01:12:27.949
said to me, but we don't find any plastic bottles

01:12:27.949 --> 01:12:30.930
from the Ice Age. That means there was no advanced

01:12:30.930 --> 01:12:33.310
civilization during the Ice Age. Well, hang on.

01:12:33.529 --> 01:12:35.590
Maybe an advanced civilization might have decided

01:12:35.590 --> 01:12:37.479
never to... to get involved in plastic in the

01:12:37.479 --> 01:12:39.359
first place. Maybe there would have been a clear

01:12:39.359 --> 01:12:41.880
choice not to make plastic. Maybe they did things

01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:46.760
in completely different ways. Maybe they cultivated

01:12:46.760 --> 01:12:50.779
powers of the human mind that we dismiss and

01:12:50.779 --> 01:12:54.539
regard as completely unimportant. You know, woo

01:12:54.539 --> 01:12:56.600
-woo. Yeah, this is the thoughts about Egypt,

01:12:56.680 --> 01:13:00.020
correct? It's about Egypt and about other things.

01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:04.119
I mean, the specific example I give is above

01:13:04.119 --> 01:13:08.039
the king's chamber. in the Great Pyramid are

01:13:08.039 --> 01:13:11.960
five further chambers. And these chambers are

01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:15.539
roofed and floored with granite beams that weigh

01:13:15.539 --> 01:13:18.869
about 70 tons each. And there are hundreds of

01:13:18.869 --> 01:13:21.869
them. And these 70 -ton granite beams, which

01:13:21.869 --> 01:13:24.149
to put in context, a 70 -ton beam is equivalent

01:13:24.149 --> 01:13:28.750
in weight to 35 large SUVs. These 70 -ton granite

01:13:28.750 --> 01:13:30.710
beams have been elevated to a height of more

01:13:30.710 --> 01:13:33.170
than 350 feet above the ground and carefully

01:13:33.170 --> 01:13:39.060
and precisely placed in position. Very hard for

01:13:39.060 --> 01:13:41.920
archaeologists to explain how that was done using

01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:45.060
purely leverage and mechanical advantage. You

01:13:45.060 --> 01:13:48.579
can say, oh, perhaps they built a ramp and hauled

01:13:48.579 --> 01:13:50.800
the stones up the ramp. But then you have to

01:13:50.800 --> 01:13:53.220
confront basic laws of physics. You can't haul

01:13:53.220 --> 01:13:57.779
a stone weighing tens of tons up a slope that

01:13:57.779 --> 01:14:00.539
exceeds 10 degrees. Then you start doing the

01:14:00.539 --> 01:14:03.699
calculation. How long a ramp do I need with a

01:14:03.699 --> 01:14:06.800
10 degree slope to get to 350 feet above the

01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:08.840
ground? And the answer is you need a fucking

01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:12.880
long ramp, which should still be there. Because

01:14:12.880 --> 01:14:15.000
it couldn't have been a sand ramp. It would have

01:14:15.000 --> 01:14:16.520
collapsed under the weight of those stones. It

01:14:16.520 --> 01:14:18.960
had to be as massive as the pyramid itself. So

01:14:18.960 --> 01:14:21.899
this begins to seem like an absurd idea, the

01:14:21.899 --> 01:14:25.199
idea that is foisted on us by archaeology. Maybe

01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:28.319
the idea that they regard as absurd, namely that

01:14:28.319 --> 01:14:31.279
psychic. powers were cultivated by ancient civilizations

01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:33.560
that they could use powers of the human mind

01:14:33.560 --> 01:14:35.960
that we have allowed to lapse maybe that idea

01:14:35.960 --> 01:14:39.880
deserves Further consideration. We have gone

01:14:39.880 --> 01:14:42.079
down a path of leverage and mechanical advantage.

01:14:42.199 --> 01:14:45.340
We're used to relying on machines. But we hear

01:14:45.340 --> 01:14:47.979
anecdotal reports of people who have telekinetic

01:14:47.979 --> 01:14:50.279
powers, who can move things with their minds,

01:14:50.319 --> 01:14:52.420
of people who have telepathic powers. And our

01:14:52.420 --> 01:14:55.260
automatic reaction is to just dismiss all of

01:14:55.260 --> 01:14:59.260
that because science says it's impossible. Because

01:14:59.260 --> 01:15:03.119
science regards consciousness as local to the

01:15:03.119 --> 01:15:05.119
brain and doesn't see how it can exert itself

01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:07.779
outside. of that but maybe we should open up

01:15:07.779 --> 01:15:09.460
to those possibilities that we're dealing with

01:15:09.460 --> 01:15:12.239
a very different kind of culture that used techniques

01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:14.220
that we have allowed to lapse and maybe we could

01:15:14.220 --> 01:15:16.739
wake those techniques up again maybe the ability

01:15:16.739 --> 01:15:20.140
of human beings to do almost superhuman things

01:15:20.140 --> 01:15:24.829
is resident within all of us but sleeping Well,

01:15:24.850 --> 01:15:26.850
it's pure speculation that they used some sort

01:15:26.850 --> 01:15:29.550
of a telekinetic power, but it's absolute that

01:15:29.550 --> 01:15:31.949
they did something that we don't understand.

01:15:32.170 --> 01:15:35.310
If you think about the distance between us and

01:15:35.310 --> 01:15:38.149
the construction, just the modern accepted construction

01:15:38.149 --> 01:15:40.590
dates of the Great Pyramid, it's more than 5

01:15:40.590 --> 01:15:42.770
,000 years ago or close to 5 ,000 years ago.

01:15:42.909 --> 01:15:44.510
The Great Pyramid is supposed to be about 4 ,500

01:15:44.510 --> 01:15:47.250
years old, yeah. That's really old. It's incredibly

01:15:47.250 --> 01:15:49.890
old, yeah. To think that someone back then could

01:15:49.890 --> 01:15:52.430
do something that would perplex us today with

01:15:52.430 --> 01:15:55.199
modern machinery. Yeah. And that somehow or another

01:15:55.199 --> 01:15:57.960
they figured this out. It's almost like what

01:15:57.960 --> 01:16:00.699
they had done was leave behind something that

01:16:00.699 --> 01:16:05.659
was so stupendous, so monstrously impressive

01:16:05.659 --> 01:16:09.600
that it would transcend time. And that you would

01:16:09.600 --> 01:16:11.680
have to look at it even thousands and thousands

01:16:11.680 --> 01:16:16.479
of years later and say, hey, this defies conventional

01:16:16.479 --> 01:16:18.979
explanation. This is not as simple. And I've

01:16:18.979 --> 01:16:21.020
seen some of the conventional explanations of

01:16:21.020 --> 01:16:23.819
the construction of the pyramid. conveniently

01:16:23.819 --> 01:16:26.180
neglect those chambers above the king's chamber

01:16:26.180 --> 01:16:28.399
they do they conveniently neglect a lot of those

01:16:28.399 --> 01:16:31.560
massive stones yeah and it's because it's it's

01:16:31.560 --> 01:16:33.439
one of those things you just go oh i don't know

01:16:33.930 --> 01:16:36.649
What is this, Jamie? There are the chambers above

01:16:36.649 --> 01:16:39.689
the king's chambers, and each one of those floors

01:16:39.689 --> 01:16:44.630
consists of a row of 70 -ton granite blocks that

01:16:44.630 --> 01:16:46.989
have been raised 350 feet above the ground, and

01:16:46.989 --> 01:16:49.270
not only that, but brought from Aswan in the

01:16:49.270 --> 01:16:52.069
south of Egypt, 500 kilometers south of the Great

01:16:52.069 --> 01:16:54.029
Pyramid. If there's any time in history where

01:16:54.029 --> 01:16:57.569
you could go in a time machine and go back and

01:16:57.569 --> 01:17:00.970
observe, would that be the time? I am just...

01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:04.960
completely fascinated by the Ice Age at the moment.

01:17:05.140 --> 01:17:07.880
If you had one shot to go back and see what it

01:17:07.880 --> 01:17:10.619
was like in some place, you wouldn't go to the

01:17:10.619 --> 01:17:13.100
construction of the Great Pyramids? I think right

01:17:13.100 --> 01:17:16.180
now where I'd go is 12 ,800 years ago in the

01:17:16.180 --> 01:17:18.079
beginning of the Younger Dryas. Ah, just to see.

01:17:18.300 --> 01:17:20.079
Because I think that's where the whole human

01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:22.220
story changes. I think that's where we change

01:17:22.220 --> 01:17:25.859
tracks from one path. to another path and following

01:17:25.859 --> 01:17:28.640
those cataclysmic events of the Younger Dryas

01:17:28.640 --> 01:17:32.000
between 12 ,800 and 11 ,600 years ago, following

01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:34.579
those, the signs of civilization that we see

01:17:34.579 --> 01:17:36.840
emerging are not the beginnings of civilization.

01:17:37.199 --> 01:17:40.100
They're a restarting of civilization that had

01:17:40.100 --> 01:17:43.140
existed before the cataclysm. And for that reason,

01:17:43.279 --> 01:17:47.510
I would... I would like to be present during

01:17:47.510 --> 01:17:50.090
that cataclysmic event, if only to satisfy myself

01:17:50.090 --> 01:17:52.729
that it was indeed a comet. You see, the one

01:17:52.729 --> 01:17:55.470
thing there's no dispute about anymore is that

01:17:55.470 --> 01:17:58.310
the Younger Dryas was a cataclysm. You can't

01:17:58.310 --> 01:18:02.789
argue about that. The megafauna that die off,

01:18:02.869 --> 01:18:04.869
the disruption of human activity that takes place

01:18:04.869 --> 01:18:07.069
at that time, the huge climate changes, this

01:18:07.069 --> 01:18:09.409
was a cataclysm by any standards. Where the argument

01:18:09.409 --> 01:18:13.109
still goes on is what caused the cataclysm. I

01:18:13.109 --> 01:18:16.430
vote strongly for... Comet, multiple fragments

01:18:16.430 --> 01:18:18.590
of a comet hitting the North American ice cap

01:18:18.590 --> 01:18:21.710
and hitting Greenland as well. But there are

01:18:21.710 --> 01:18:23.890
other researchers in the field, like my colleague

01:18:23.890 --> 01:18:26.210
Robert Shock, who thinks that the sun is more

01:18:26.210 --> 01:18:28.390
involved. This is healthy. This is very, very

01:18:28.390 --> 01:18:30.869
healthy, that we should be approaching this problem

01:18:30.869 --> 01:18:33.449
from many different perspectives and trying to

01:18:33.449 --> 01:18:35.949
figure out what the fuck caused this extraordinary

01:18:35.949 --> 01:18:39.590
event. occurs at a pivotal moment in the human

01:18:39.590 --> 01:18:42.149
story. The end of the Stone Age, the beginning

01:18:42.149 --> 01:18:44.489
of the Mesolithic, the end of the Ice Age, the

01:18:44.489 --> 01:18:46.649
beginning of the current age of the Earth. And

01:18:46.649 --> 01:18:48.989
suddenly we see these signs of civilization appearing.

01:18:49.149 --> 01:18:51.229
And in places like Gobekli Tepe, those signs

01:18:51.229 --> 01:18:53.789
already include highly sophisticated knowledge.

01:18:54.250 --> 01:18:58.449
And that's why I feel we really need to investigate

01:18:58.449 --> 01:19:01.850
the Amazon. There are three places in the world

01:19:01.850 --> 01:19:03.850
which are really lacking in the investigation

01:19:03.850 --> 01:19:07.439
right now. One of them is the Amazon, five and

01:19:07.439 --> 01:19:09.500
a half million square kilometers, very little

01:19:09.500 --> 01:19:11.859
archaeology done. Another is the Sahara Desert.

01:19:12.060 --> 01:19:15.039
The Sahara Desert, tough place to work. I can

01:19:15.039 --> 01:19:16.739
understand why there's little archaeology done

01:19:16.739 --> 01:19:18.960
there. But the Sahara Desert was green during

01:19:18.960 --> 01:19:20.939
the Ice Age. It had a completely different climate

01:19:20.939 --> 01:19:22.840
regime. We should consider the possibility that

01:19:22.840 --> 01:19:24.699
missing parts of the human story are there. And

01:19:24.699 --> 01:19:26.859
then under the continental shelves because sea

01:19:26.859 --> 01:19:29.659
level rose 400 feet. These are three domains

01:19:29.659 --> 01:19:33.470
that archaeology has. largely not investigated

01:19:33.470 --> 01:19:35.869
and and it is largely not done so they say well

01:19:35.869 --> 01:19:38.189
why would we spend the money on marine archaeology

01:19:38.189 --> 01:19:40.550
it's much better to spend it on looking for shipwrecks

01:19:40.550 --> 01:19:42.630
rather than looking for signs of a lost civilization

01:19:42.630 --> 01:19:44.850
because we archaeologists know there was no lost

01:19:44.850 --> 01:19:47.789
civilization so that's the argument for the resources

01:19:47.789 --> 01:19:50.470
there and and the same the same with the amazon

01:19:50.470 --> 01:19:52.550
and the same with the with with the sahara desert

01:19:52.550 --> 01:19:56.039
places in the very places in the world that those

01:19:56.039 --> 01:19:58.859
amongst us who are charged with the responsibility

01:19:58.859 --> 01:20:02.260
of interpreting the past have not looked at are

01:20:02.260 --> 01:20:05.380
the very places we should be looking at. I had

01:20:05.380 --> 01:20:07.920
a thought once while I was under the influence,

01:20:08.100 --> 01:20:12.899
and it was a thought that one day computational

01:20:12.899 --> 01:20:16.720
powers will reach a point where they will be

01:20:16.720 --> 01:20:19.560
able to take into consideration all of the objects

01:20:19.560 --> 01:20:23.100
on Earth and what we know about the history.

01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:27.239
And vividly recreate the past through computation

01:20:27.239 --> 01:20:30.079
to the point where you could actually know who

01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:33.720
did what, when people did things. And that, I

01:20:33.720 --> 01:20:35.159
mean, I don't even know if this would be physical.

01:20:36.039 --> 01:20:40.060
Today, certainly not be possible. But with the

01:20:40.060 --> 01:20:43.560
exponential increase in computational power and

01:20:43.560 --> 01:20:46.340
technology and innovation that one day we'll

01:20:46.340 --> 01:20:48.420
reach a point where you'll be able to watch.

01:20:48.760 --> 01:20:51.479
You'll be able to see what happened. And they'll

01:20:51.479 --> 01:20:54.640
be able to recreate what happened. Exactly. And

01:20:54.640 --> 01:20:56.420
that this would be something that would be –

01:20:56.420 --> 01:21:00.319
it's impossible for us to imagine that someone

01:21:00.319 --> 01:21:02.779
would be able to do that right now. Yeah. But

01:21:02.779 --> 01:21:06.260
that one day with technology, as it gets more

01:21:06.260 --> 01:21:09.119
and more advanced, we will reach some sort of

01:21:09.119 --> 01:21:12.840
an innovation or some sort of an invention that

01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:16.779
will allow us to go back and see, literally see

01:21:16.779 --> 01:21:20.350
what happened, how things were done. Technology

01:21:20.350 --> 01:21:23.369
is changing our whole understanding of the past

01:21:23.369 --> 01:21:25.989
and what you're envisaging is perfectly possible.

01:21:26.250 --> 01:21:30.000
We will come to a time if… 100 years, 500 years.

01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:33.380
Perhaps less. If we don't first destroy ourselves

01:21:33.380 --> 01:21:35.779
entirely as a civilization, we will come to a

01:21:35.779 --> 01:21:38.060
time where our cleverness and our techniques

01:21:38.060 --> 01:21:41.180
will allow a much wider opening up of the past

01:21:41.180 --> 01:21:43.180
than has presently happened. But it is already

01:21:43.180 --> 01:21:47.079
happening. One of the areas of science that I

01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:51.939
go into in America before is genetics and DNA.

01:21:52.659 --> 01:21:56.560
This is an area of science that was not... much

01:21:56.560 --> 01:22:00.359
informing archaeology until about the 1990s.

01:22:00.359 --> 01:22:03.680
But since the 2000s has become very important

01:22:03.680 --> 01:22:05.600
in archaeology because the technology has been

01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:09.359
developed where ancient DNA can be extracted

01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:11.880
and tested and you can actually genotype an entire

01:22:11.880 --> 01:22:15.220
individual from DNA that may be 15, 20 ,000 years

01:22:15.220 --> 01:22:21.010
old. And this... new technology of genome sequencing

01:22:21.010 --> 01:22:25.289
and DNA is another factor that is raising huge

01:22:25.289 --> 01:22:28.449
question marks over the past of the Americas.

01:22:28.649 --> 01:22:32.689
And one of the issues I go into in this book

01:22:32.689 --> 01:22:37.329
is the presence in the Amazon rainforest of...

01:22:37.560 --> 01:22:40.760
A very specific, clearly identifiable pattern

01:22:40.760 --> 01:22:43.880
of DNA, which is only found in one other place

01:22:43.880 --> 01:22:47.260
in the world, and that is in Australasia, in

01:22:47.260 --> 01:22:50.659
Papua New Guinea and amongst Australian Aborigines.

01:22:50.699 --> 01:22:55.039
It's Australasian DNA. In South America? Not

01:22:55.039 --> 01:22:57.779
only in South America, but in the depths. of

01:22:57.779 --> 01:23:00.100
the Amazon rainforest amongst tribes who have

01:23:00.100 --> 01:23:02.640
only been contacted in the last 20 or 30 years.

01:23:02.920 --> 01:23:06.260
And furthermore, although skeletal remains are

01:23:06.260 --> 01:23:09.609
rare... It has been found in ancient skeletal

01:23:09.609 --> 01:23:12.250
remains that are close to 11 ,000 years old in

01:23:12.250 --> 01:23:14.430
the Amazon. So that tells us that this DNA signal

01:23:14.430 --> 01:23:17.449
has been in the Amazon for at least 11 ,000 years.

01:23:17.750 --> 01:23:20.050
The geneticists think that it came to the Amazon

01:23:20.050 --> 01:23:23.270
during the last ice age. And this raises a huge

01:23:23.270 --> 01:23:25.550
mystery because the peopling of the Americas

01:23:25.550 --> 01:23:29.500
is supposed to have occurred. from Siberia, across

01:23:29.500 --> 01:23:32.399
the Bering Straits, down through that ice -free

01:23:32.399 --> 01:23:34.739
corridor into North America, down through North

01:23:34.739 --> 01:23:36.939
America, into South America, into Central America,

01:23:37.100 --> 01:23:39.899
and finally into South America. If that was the

01:23:39.899 --> 01:23:43.119
whole story, then we would find this DNA signal

01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:46.659
in North America and in Central America. We would

01:23:46.659 --> 01:23:50.439
not find it only in the Amazon. And I talked

01:23:50.439 --> 01:23:52.880
to some of the leading geneticists about this,

01:23:52.939 --> 01:23:56.199
specifically Professor S .K. Willislev at the

01:23:56.199 --> 01:23:58.960
University of Copenhagen, who's been the lead

01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:01.420
author in a number of major studies of ancient

01:24:01.420 --> 01:24:04.199
DNA. And I asked him, what do you make of this

01:24:04.199 --> 01:24:07.619
Australasian DNA in the Amazon? And he said,

01:24:07.659 --> 01:24:10.640
honestly, we don't have a proper explanation

01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:13.439
for it at the moment. But what he did say is

01:24:13.439 --> 01:24:16.539
that the most… parsimonious explanation he used

01:24:16.539 --> 01:24:19.100
that specific word the most parsimonious explanation

01:24:19.100 --> 01:24:22.619
is that a group of people during the ice age

01:24:22.619 --> 01:24:27.359
crossed the pacific ocean and ended up in South

01:24:27.359 --> 01:24:29.479
America and settled in the Amazon and brought

01:24:29.479 --> 01:24:32.260
their DNA with them. That would account perfectly

01:24:32.260 --> 01:24:35.180
for the DNA data. And when a scientist says the

01:24:35.180 --> 01:24:37.800
most parsimonious explanation, what that scientist

01:24:37.800 --> 01:24:39.539
is saying is he likes that explanation, that

01:24:39.539 --> 01:24:42.279
it's a simple, direct, clear explanation of the

01:24:42.279 --> 01:24:45.600
DNA mystery. But then he added, however, it doesn't

01:24:45.600 --> 01:24:47.640
make practical sense. And I asked him, well,

01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:49.260
why doesn't it make practical sense? And he said,

01:24:49.300 --> 01:24:52.579
because the archaeologists... tell me that no

01:24:52.579 --> 01:24:55.279
human population was capable of crossing the

01:24:55.279 --> 01:24:57.979
pacific ocean during the ice age at which point

01:24:57.979 --> 01:25:00.779
it was natural for me to say do you really trust

01:25:00.779 --> 01:25:03.220
the archaeologists and he said well in science

01:25:03.220 --> 01:25:05.579
we do trust the work of other scientists we don't

01:25:05.579 --> 01:25:07.140
really question it we don't really investigate

01:25:07.140 --> 01:25:09.260
it that's their side of the their side of the

01:25:09.260 --> 01:25:12.579
business um and and my my view is that that is

01:25:12.579 --> 01:25:18.970
rather than Rather than taking this weird anomalous

01:25:18.970 --> 01:25:23.609
Australasian DNA signal in the heart of the Amazon

01:25:23.609 --> 01:25:27.890
as something to be explained away and as something

01:25:27.890 --> 01:25:32.149
to be… For it to be denied that it could be connected

01:25:32.149 --> 01:25:34.989
to a voyage across the Pacific Ocean. Maybe it's

01:25:34.989 --> 01:25:37.130
the first compelling evidence that voyages were

01:25:37.130 --> 01:25:39.729
taking place across the Pacific Ocean during

01:25:39.729 --> 01:25:42.609
the Ice Age. And maybe we should be opening up

01:25:42.609 --> 01:25:44.590
that whole issue for exploration. And again,

01:25:44.689 --> 01:25:47.649
I think a lost civilization is the best answer.

01:25:47.750 --> 01:25:51.239
And that near the end of the Ice Age. When the

01:25:51.239 --> 01:25:54.520
Younger Dryas cataclysm unfolds, it's not an

01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:57.460
overnight thing. It's very bad 12 ,800 years

01:25:57.460 --> 01:26:00.659
ago. There's about 1 ,200 years of horror. I

01:26:00.659 --> 01:26:03.079
don't think the civilization went down in a single

01:26:03.079 --> 01:26:05.199
day and night. I think there were survivors.

01:26:05.500 --> 01:26:07.979
I think bits of it were left. I think their project

01:26:07.979 --> 01:26:12.000
was to restart civilization. And I suggest very

01:26:12.000 --> 01:26:14.319
strongly that where they tried to mount that

01:26:14.319 --> 01:26:16.880
project was amongst the hunter -gatherers who

01:26:16.880 --> 01:26:20.090
coexisted in the world with them. At that time,

01:26:20.289 --> 01:26:24.050
we ourselves are an advanced civilization. At

01:26:24.050 --> 01:26:26.649
least that's what we call ourselves. And we coexist

01:26:26.649 --> 01:26:29.350
in the world with hunter -gatherers. It's not

01:26:29.350 --> 01:26:31.550
an odd idea that an advanced civilization and

01:26:31.550 --> 01:26:33.649
hunter -gatherers should coexist. And there is

01:26:33.649 --> 01:26:35.729
separation between us and the Amazonian hunter

01:26:35.729 --> 01:26:37.829
-gatherers. There are tribes in the Amazon that

01:26:37.829 --> 01:26:41.430
are uncontacted and that we don't know even exist.

01:26:42.350 --> 01:26:46.390
If a catastrophe on the level of the Younger

01:26:46.390 --> 01:26:50.609
Dryas were to occur today, I don't think that

01:26:50.609 --> 01:26:53.149
our civilization would make it through. We are

01:26:53.149 --> 01:26:56.729
the spoiled children of the earth. We are just

01:26:56.729 --> 01:26:59.750
used to having everything laid on. You know,

01:26:59.750 --> 01:27:03.350
the supermarket shelves are groaning with food.

01:27:03.770 --> 01:27:06.310
We can get food delivered to our homes. We have

01:27:06.310 --> 01:27:08.250
roofs over our head. We have shelters. We have

01:27:08.250 --> 01:27:10.970
clothing. Everything is taken for granted. I

01:27:10.970 --> 01:27:13.270
guess you're an exception, but very few people

01:27:13.270 --> 01:27:15.810
in modern Western culture know how to survive.

01:27:16.130 --> 01:27:17.710
They don't have survival skills. They don't know

01:27:17.710 --> 01:27:20.109
how to hunt. They don't know how to gather. They

01:27:20.109 --> 01:27:22.649
don't know how to grow crops because they've

01:27:22.649 --> 01:27:24.649
handed that responsibility over to others. We

01:27:24.649 --> 01:27:26.649
live in a society that's highly segmented and

01:27:26.649 --> 01:27:28.550
specialized and different people specialize in

01:27:28.550 --> 01:27:31.210
different things, but nobody has the vast general

01:27:31.210 --> 01:27:34.250
survival skill that a hunter -gatherer has. So

01:27:34.250 --> 01:27:37.970
in a global cataclysm, actually, at first counterintuitively,

01:27:38.069 --> 01:27:40.319
the people who would survive it would be. the

01:27:40.319 --> 01:27:42.100
hunter -gatherers. And an advanced civilization

01:27:42.100 --> 01:27:45.000
would be smart if they were survivors to seek

01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:48.640
refuge amongst hunter -gatherers to make that

01:27:48.640 --> 01:27:50.920
the place where they might try to restart their

01:27:50.920 --> 01:27:53.420
civilization. And that's why I think that this

01:27:53.420 --> 01:27:57.300
Australasian DNA signal in the Amazon may be

01:27:57.300 --> 01:27:59.460
part of the evidence for a sort of outreach effort

01:27:59.460 --> 01:28:02.220
that was being made by a lost civilization seeing

01:28:02.220 --> 01:28:04.399
the disaster coming down on it and realizing

01:28:04.399 --> 01:28:07.119
that something needed to be done. It's fascinating

01:28:07.119 --> 01:28:09.699
to me that the geneticists would rely on the

01:28:09.699 --> 01:28:11.979
archaeologists being that the geneticists have

01:28:11.979 --> 01:28:14.979
the actual DNA they can examine where the archaeologists

01:28:14.979 --> 01:28:17.760
are piecing things together. Little tiny bits

01:28:17.760 --> 01:28:21.800
of information over the entire landscape and

01:28:21.800 --> 01:28:24.359
then you consider how much information they don't

01:28:24.359 --> 01:28:26.359
have access to that's in the ground. Exactly.

01:28:27.020 --> 01:28:29.479
There's so much. I strongly resist the idea that

01:28:29.479 --> 01:28:31.840
archaeology is a science. I don't think it should

01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:33.659
be described as a science. What do you think

01:28:33.659 --> 01:28:35.340
it should be described as? It's more like a kind

01:28:35.340 --> 01:28:41.329
of It's an attempt to interpret the past based

01:28:41.329 --> 01:28:44.640
on rather... flimsy and limited evidence. And

01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:46.439
what you find in that interpretation is that

01:28:46.439 --> 01:28:48.500
the preconceptions of the individuals involved

01:28:48.500 --> 01:28:50.979
are being imposed upon the evidence, which then

01:28:50.979 --> 01:28:53.859
turns out to support their preconceptions. And

01:28:53.859 --> 01:28:55.739
that's not a scientific way of doing things.

01:28:55.779 --> 01:28:57.300
A scientific way of doing things is testing,

01:28:57.420 --> 01:29:00.260
testing hypotheses and seeking to falsify them

01:29:00.260 --> 01:29:03.560
and seeing if they work out. So the problem is

01:29:03.560 --> 01:29:05.500
drawing these conclusions and then being too

01:29:05.500 --> 01:29:08.420
rigid with these conclusions upon further evidence.

01:29:08.659 --> 01:29:14.920
That's my view. has been much too rigid and that

01:29:14.920 --> 01:29:18.880
there's a climate of fear in archaeology. I don't

01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:20.979
mean to pick particularly on archaeologists here.

01:29:21.119 --> 01:29:24.939
I think this is generally true across other disciplines

01:29:24.939 --> 01:29:29.119
as well. These days, academics are driven by

01:29:29.119 --> 01:29:31.319
the need to publish research papers. That's what

01:29:31.319 --> 01:29:33.140
they build their careers on. If they can get

01:29:33.140 --> 01:29:35.800
a paper on their bit of research published in

01:29:35.800 --> 01:29:37.460
Nature or the Proceedings of the National Academy

01:29:37.460 --> 01:29:40.659
of Sciences, etc., that's good for their careers.

01:29:40.899 --> 01:29:43.520
But then you confront the gatekeepers in those

01:29:43.520 --> 01:29:47.140
publications who regard any archaeological idea

01:29:47.140 --> 01:29:49.800
that is not part of the mainstream accepted consensus

01:29:49.800 --> 01:29:54.539
with great suspicion and are most reluctant to…

01:29:55.319 --> 01:29:58.760
you know, to publish that information. Now, what

01:29:58.760 --> 01:30:02.439
is the mainstream... When archaeologists talk

01:30:02.439 --> 01:30:06.100
about seafaring humans, what do they date that

01:30:06.100 --> 01:30:10.439
to? Well, the great seafaring adventure that

01:30:10.439 --> 01:30:13.399
is accepted by archaeology is called the Polynesian

01:30:13.399 --> 01:30:15.939
expansion. And it's a remarkable story. And that

01:30:15.939 --> 01:30:20.579
occurs roughly 3 ,000 to 3 ,500 years ago. And

01:30:20.579 --> 01:30:23.659
those Polynesians were amazing ocean navigators.

01:30:23.680 --> 01:30:27.000
They could cross distances of thousands of kilometers.

01:30:27.840 --> 01:30:30.460
pinpoint accuracy I mean it's not an accident

01:30:30.460 --> 01:30:33.539
that the Polynesians found Easter Island finding

01:30:33.539 --> 01:30:35.899
Easter Island is a really challenging project

01:30:35.899 --> 01:30:38.720
Easter Island is 2 ,000 miles from the coast

01:30:38.720 --> 01:30:41.180
of South America. It's 2 ,000 miles from the

01:30:41.180 --> 01:30:43.699
nearest other island, which is Tahiti. It's just

01:30:43.699 --> 01:30:46.159
a little speck in the middle of the ocean, but

01:30:46.159 --> 01:30:49.000
the Polynesians found it and settled there and

01:30:49.000 --> 01:30:51.159
appear to have brought a reproductively viable

01:30:51.159 --> 01:30:53.500
population there and appear to have made voyages

01:30:53.500 --> 01:30:57.500
back and forth. But that was 3 ,000 to 3 ,500

01:30:57.500 --> 01:31:01.500
years ago. That was not 12 ,800 years ago. And

01:31:01.500 --> 01:31:04.739
this is where archaeology's adamant position

01:31:04.739 --> 01:31:09.020
that ocean voyaging, was begun by the Polynesians

01:31:09.020 --> 01:31:11.180
and that there was no major ocean voyages before

01:31:11.180 --> 01:31:13.279
that, I think needs to be strongly questioned

01:31:13.279 --> 01:31:14.960
and it needs to be strongly questioned in the

01:31:14.960 --> 01:31:17.420
light of this DNA evidence from the Amazon rather

01:31:17.420 --> 01:31:19.720
than rejecting the evidence and attempts should

01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:21.989
be made to consider what that might mean. Well,

01:31:22.090 --> 01:31:24.050
it's interesting because we know that the Egyptians

01:31:24.050 --> 01:31:27.890
had boats. Yeah. And so, I mean, if there were

01:31:27.890 --> 01:31:30.409
boats 4 ,500 years ago, why do we think that

01:31:30.409 --> 01:31:31.970
they didn't try them out in the ocean? That doesn't

01:31:31.970 --> 01:31:33.789
make any sense, especially if they existed a

01:31:33.789 --> 01:31:35.890
thousand years prior, which is also possible.

01:31:36.689 --> 01:31:38.710
Archaeologists wouldn't argue that the Egyptians

01:31:38.710 --> 01:31:42.310
had boats, but that is still within the framework

01:31:42.310 --> 01:31:45.569
of accepted history. It's the notion of a global

01:31:45.569 --> 01:31:49.970
navigating culture in the Ice Age that archaeologists

01:31:49.970 --> 01:31:53.060
can't swallow. it's a subject that I've kept

01:31:53.060 --> 01:31:55.520
on coming up against over a number of years I

01:31:55.520 --> 01:31:58.220
think the best evidence for it is ancient maps

01:31:59.020 --> 01:32:01.760
which show the world as it looked during the

01:32:01.760 --> 01:32:04.340
last ice age. I first explored this in Fingerprints

01:32:04.340 --> 01:32:05.739
of the Gods, and I've touched on the mystery

01:32:05.739 --> 01:32:07.739
again. And I have an appendix on the subject

01:32:07.739 --> 01:32:10.079
in this book, because I think these are very

01:32:10.079 --> 01:32:12.819
important. We're talking about maps that were

01:32:12.819 --> 01:32:17.359
drawn roughly between the 1300s and the 1700s.

01:32:17.619 --> 01:32:20.180
In other words, in relatively recent history.

01:32:20.399 --> 01:32:24.300
However, these maps were largely based on much

01:32:24.300 --> 01:32:27.659
older source maps, which they copied. And we

01:32:27.659 --> 01:32:29.479
can say that. For sure, because one of the famous

01:32:29.479 --> 01:32:32.119
maps is the Piri Reis map, which was created

01:32:32.119 --> 01:32:34.380
by a Turkish admiral called Piri Reis in the

01:32:34.380 --> 01:32:37.939
year 1513. Actually, only a corner of his map

01:32:37.939 --> 01:32:40.039
has survived. It was originally a world map.

01:32:40.159 --> 01:32:41.920
We now just have a bit that shows the east coast

01:32:41.920 --> 01:32:44.920
of South America and North America and the west

01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:48.640
coast of Africa. Piri Reis writes in that map

01:32:48.640 --> 01:32:51.359
that it is in his own handwriting that he based

01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:54.840
it on more than 100 older source maps, some of

01:32:54.840 --> 01:32:58.079
which had come. from the Library of Alexandria.

01:32:58.479 --> 01:33:01.300
In other words, when the Library of Alexandria

01:33:01.300 --> 01:33:03.979
had been destroyed in the 4th century AD or whenever

01:33:03.979 --> 01:33:06.399
it was, some of its contents had been rescued

01:33:06.399 --> 01:33:08.859
and brought to Constantinople, which became the

01:33:08.859 --> 01:33:10.880
Turkish capital, and Piri Reis had access to

01:33:10.880 --> 01:33:13.680
those maps, and he incorporated information from

01:33:13.680 --> 01:33:16.579
those maps on his maps, as well as incorporating

01:33:16.579 --> 01:33:19.640
more recent navigational information. And this

01:33:19.640 --> 01:33:22.079
is one of a whole category of maps which are

01:33:22.079 --> 01:33:24.659
extremely hard to explain. all of them based

01:33:24.659 --> 01:33:28.279
on older source maps now lost, all of them incorporating

01:33:28.279 --> 01:33:31.840
extremely precise relative longitudes and latitudes.

01:33:32.199 --> 01:33:34.619
Latitude is not that difficult a technological

01:33:34.619 --> 01:33:37.600
feat, but longitude is a difficult technological

01:33:37.600 --> 01:33:40.779
feat. Longitude... involves a chronometer. It

01:33:40.779 --> 01:33:42.819
involves knowing the time at the place you began

01:33:42.819 --> 01:33:46.039
your voyage and the local noon as well and calculating

01:33:46.039 --> 01:33:47.979
the difference between them. You need a chronometer

01:33:47.979 --> 01:33:51.399
that will keep accurate time at sea with the

01:33:51.399 --> 01:33:53.420
motions of a ship. And it's just a plain fact

01:33:53.420 --> 01:33:56.739
that our civilization did not invent such a chronometer

01:33:56.739 --> 01:34:00.460
until the late 18th century. Before that, we

01:34:00.460 --> 01:34:02.960
didn't know what longitude we were at. And ships

01:34:02.960 --> 01:34:05.659
were constantly sailing unexpectedly into coastlines

01:34:05.659 --> 01:34:08.039
that they thought were hundreds of miles further

01:34:08.039 --> 01:34:10.159
away. So So the discovery of the technique to

01:34:10.159 --> 01:34:12.920
do longitude was a major civilizational advance.

01:34:13.340 --> 01:34:16.699
Its presence in maps based on much older source

01:34:16.699 --> 01:34:18.840
maps that actually show the world as it looks

01:34:18.840 --> 01:34:21.579
during the last ice age suggests that somebody

01:34:21.579 --> 01:34:23.659
during the last ice age was mapping the world

01:34:23.659 --> 01:34:26.319
and had mastered the technique of calculating

01:34:26.319 --> 01:34:32.159
longitude. Classic example of these maps, and

01:34:32.159 --> 01:34:34.779
I make a point of this, is what's called the

01:34:34.779 --> 01:34:38.329
Pinkerton world map. which was drawn in the year

01:34:38.329 --> 01:34:42.789
1818, and it was based on the latest navigational

01:34:42.789 --> 01:34:45.710
information at that time. I reproduce that map

01:34:45.710 --> 01:34:49.130
in the book. What's missing from the map, entirely

01:34:49.130 --> 01:34:52.729
missing, is Antarctica. There's just a hole at

01:34:52.729 --> 01:34:54.590
the bottom of the world. There's nothing there.

01:34:54.829 --> 01:34:58.109
And the reason there's nothing there, there's

01:34:58.109 --> 01:35:04.289
another Pinkerton map that shows that. The reason

01:35:04.289 --> 01:35:06.449
that you need to find one that's centered on

01:35:06.449 --> 01:35:10.229
Antarctica. The reason that Antarctica is not

01:35:10.229 --> 01:35:12.750
there is that our civilization hadn't discovered

01:35:12.750 --> 01:35:15.909
Antarctica in 1818. So they couldn't authentically

01:35:15.909 --> 01:35:19.670
put it on a map in 1818. Actually, we discovered

01:35:19.670 --> 01:35:22.210
it in 1819. And that's when it starts appearing

01:35:22.210 --> 01:35:26.229
on modern maps. The problem is that Antarctica

01:35:26.229 --> 01:35:29.640
appears repeatedly. on these much older maps.

01:35:29.920 --> 01:35:33.560
And it appears in the right place and a bit bigger

01:35:33.560 --> 01:35:35.439
than it is today, but very much as it looked

01:35:35.439 --> 01:35:37.960
during the last ice age. So what all of this

01:35:37.960 --> 01:35:40.640
suggests to me is that the world was mapped and

01:35:40.640 --> 01:35:43.340
explored by a global seafaring culture with a

01:35:43.340 --> 01:35:45.539
level of technology that was at least equivalent

01:35:45.539 --> 01:35:48.260
to ours at the end of the 18th century during

01:35:48.260 --> 01:35:51.079
the ice age. Wasn't there also a map of Greenland

01:35:51.079 --> 01:35:53.600
that showed it underneath the ice? Yes, there

01:35:53.600 --> 01:35:57.920
are. And another intriguing thing I mentioned

01:35:57.930 --> 01:36:00.710
I mentioned the Piri Reis map just now. Shown

01:36:00.710 --> 01:36:03.449
on the Piri Reis map lying off the east coast

01:36:03.449 --> 01:36:06.909
of North America is a large island with a row

01:36:06.909 --> 01:36:09.789
of megaliths, like a road of megaliths, running

01:36:09.789 --> 01:36:13.949
up the middle of it. That island is in the exact

01:36:13.949 --> 01:36:19.390
place of the Grand Bahama banks. Is it on? Is

01:36:19.390 --> 01:36:22.430
it on this one? Yeah, it is. But can I point

01:36:22.430 --> 01:36:26.960
it out to you? Sure, sure. It's there. Okay,

01:36:27.279 --> 01:36:29.920
this thing. That one. Okay. Right here. That's

01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:31.420
great that you can bring this up, Jeremy. That's

01:36:31.420 --> 01:36:33.680
really good. So this island is sitting there

01:36:33.680 --> 01:36:36.260
off the southeast coast of North America. Look

01:36:36.260 --> 01:36:38.180
at the way they used to draw things back then,

01:36:38.239 --> 01:36:40.619
too. And what you see running down the middle

01:36:40.619 --> 01:36:44.340
of it is this road -like feature of megaliths.

01:36:44.359 --> 01:36:48.039
Yes, I see. Right there, yeah. These here. Now,

01:36:48.180 --> 01:36:50.560
the thing is... It was a long period of my life

01:36:50.560 --> 01:36:53.180
when I did a lot of scuba diving and I was looking

01:36:53.180 --> 01:36:55.100
at underwater structures. And one of the sites

01:36:55.100 --> 01:36:58.159
I dived on was the Bimini Road, which is in the

01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:01.159
Grand Bahama Banks. And the Bimini Road is exactly

01:37:01.159 --> 01:37:04.819
where that island is. And here's the issue. I

01:37:04.819 --> 01:37:06.819
don't care whether the Bimini Road is natural

01:37:06.819 --> 01:37:09.420
or man -made. For me, the mystery is that it

01:37:09.420 --> 01:37:12.399
is shown above water on that map. And the last

01:37:12.399 --> 01:37:14.539
time it was above water was thousands and thousands

01:37:14.539 --> 01:37:17.500
of years ago. So for me, this is all evidence

01:37:17.500 --> 01:37:20.159
that we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that

01:37:20.159 --> 01:37:22.359
our ancestors had achieved a level of technology

01:37:22.359 --> 01:37:24.479
where they could explore and map the world's

01:37:24.479 --> 01:37:26.420
oceans. We shouldn't dismiss that. There it is

01:37:26.420 --> 01:37:28.319
right there. So we don't know what those stones

01:37:28.319 --> 01:37:32.130
are or how they were created. Boy, do they look

01:37:32.130 --> 01:37:34.109
artificial. That's Yonaguni in Japan we're looking

01:37:34.109 --> 01:37:36.409
at now. Go back to that image, Jimmy, the last

01:37:36.409 --> 01:37:38.289
image that we were just looking at. Look at that.

01:37:38.350 --> 01:37:40.850
I mean, that looks so man -made. And you can

01:37:40.850 --> 01:37:43.170
see that it's rather like the pattern that's

01:37:43.170 --> 01:37:46.090
shown on the island in the map. How deep is that

01:37:46.090 --> 01:37:47.689
today? Oh, it's not very deep. It's about 20

01:37:47.689 --> 01:37:50.659
feet. But we think that that was above water

01:37:50.659 --> 01:37:52.359
at some point in history? It was definitely above

01:37:52.359 --> 01:37:55.180
water during the last ice age. When it finally

01:37:55.180 --> 01:37:57.380
went underwater may have been as late as 8 ,000

01:37:57.380 --> 01:37:59.399
or 9 ,000 years ago. Is there anything else compelling

01:37:59.399 --> 01:38:01.680
that's in the immediate area that seems to indicate

01:38:01.680 --> 01:38:03.340
that there was some sort of a man -made structure?

01:38:03.640 --> 01:38:06.260
Well, nobody's looked for it. And the whole effort

01:38:06.260 --> 01:38:08.479
of archaeology has been to dismiss the significance

01:38:08.479 --> 01:38:10.520
of the Bimini Road. How would they dismiss that?

01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:13.880
Well, they say it's totally natural. Come on!

01:38:14.260 --> 01:38:18.479
Is it? Go back to that image again. This is the

01:38:18.479 --> 01:38:19.899
argument. Go back to that image that we just

01:38:19.899 --> 01:38:23.159
saw. Are you sure? As somebody who spent a lot

01:38:23.159 --> 01:38:25.279
of time diving on the Bimini Road, I can tell

01:38:25.279 --> 01:38:27.739
you I absolutely do not think it's natural. I

01:38:27.739 --> 01:38:29.439
think it's a man -made structure. But the argument

01:38:29.439 --> 01:38:31.760
is that it's a kind of beach rock that forms

01:38:31.760 --> 01:38:34.220
in these blocky formations. Does it? Yes, beach

01:38:34.220 --> 01:38:36.140
rock does form in blocky formations. But here

01:38:36.140 --> 01:38:38.119
I believe that the beach rock has been used as

01:38:38.119 --> 01:38:41.829
a construction material. But I repeat. The key

01:38:41.829 --> 01:38:45.170
issue is not whether the Bimini Road is man -made

01:38:45.170 --> 01:38:47.789
or not. The key issue is that it features on

01:38:47.789 --> 01:38:51.130
a map above water. And that is a dating project.

01:38:51.229 --> 01:38:53.350
That tells us that somebody was mapping that

01:38:53.350 --> 01:38:56.149
bit of the world when it was above water. And

01:38:56.149 --> 01:38:59.329
that takes us back a very long way into the past.

01:38:59.550 --> 01:39:01.149
The one that you just pulled up. Yeah, look at

01:39:01.149 --> 01:39:03.270
that one. That's a stunning place. It's an amazing

01:39:03.270 --> 01:39:05.949
sight. It's just like the odds of that being

01:39:05.949 --> 01:39:09.449
in that order with those uniformly sized rocks.

01:39:09.770 --> 01:39:12.710
How long is that? Oh, hundreds of feet. It's

01:39:12.710 --> 01:39:16.170
actually shaped like the letter J. It's a giant

01:39:16.170 --> 01:39:18.369
underwater structure. It's really an enormous

01:39:18.369 --> 01:39:20.329
thing and very beautiful to dive on. And there's

01:39:20.329 --> 01:39:22.350
lots of very gentle, sweet nurse sharks down

01:39:22.350 --> 01:39:24.449
there that you can play with. So that looks much

01:39:24.449 --> 01:39:26.909
more like random. That's more random. And bits

01:39:26.909 --> 01:39:29.609
of it do look more random. And bits of it look

01:39:29.609 --> 01:39:34.510
highly constructed. I would not seek to claim

01:39:34.510 --> 01:39:37.350
that the Bimini Road is absolutely man -made.

01:39:37.430 --> 01:39:39.430
My claim about the Bimini Road is it's really

01:39:39.430 --> 01:39:41.399
fucking weird that it appears. on a map above

01:39:41.399 --> 01:39:45.020
water, a map that was drawn in 1513 based on

01:39:45.020 --> 01:39:47.500
older source maps. Now, when they found that

01:39:47.500 --> 01:39:52.079
ancient Greek computer thing, what is that called?

01:39:52.079 --> 01:39:55.020
The Antikythera Mechanism. Yes. Again, that...

01:39:55.199 --> 01:39:58.920
testifies to a lost navigational skill that we

01:39:58.920 --> 01:40:01.539
have not taken account of before. Incredibly

01:40:01.539 --> 01:40:03.859
complex. And it took a long time for them to

01:40:03.859 --> 01:40:06.260
figure out what that even is. What do they think

01:40:06.260 --> 01:40:09.659
that is now? It tracks the movements of the planets.

01:40:09.720 --> 01:40:14.119
It's a navigational device. It's a geared, cogged

01:40:14.119 --> 01:40:17.020
system that allows you to track the passage of

01:40:17.020 --> 01:40:19.199
time and figure out where you are. It's some

01:40:19.199 --> 01:40:21.260
kind of navigational device. It's not fully understood.

01:40:21.380 --> 01:40:23.779
And how old is that? I think that goes back to

01:40:23.779 --> 01:40:26.720
Greek times. I'm guessing here because the Greek

01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:28.920
times are not of great interest to me, but I'm

01:40:28.920 --> 01:40:33.119
thinking around about 500 BC. At least 2 ,000

01:40:33.119 --> 01:40:36.979
years old, 2 ,000 plus. And we know that there

01:40:36.979 --> 01:40:39.279
had to be more than one of these things. Yes.

01:40:39.779 --> 01:40:43.020
You can't have something like that without a

01:40:43.020 --> 01:40:46.420
vast effort behind it. Human beings were working

01:40:46.420 --> 01:40:48.640
on creating this geared and cogged machinery

01:40:48.640 --> 01:40:51.659
that reflected the patterns in the sky. Oh, is

01:40:51.659 --> 01:40:53.180
that a recreation of it? That's a recreation.

01:40:53.600 --> 01:40:58.439
Wow. Yeah. Can you buy one of those? It looks

01:40:58.439 --> 01:41:02.189
like you can buy that. Dude. Bookmark that. We

01:41:02.189 --> 01:41:04.329
need one right there, right next to the plaster

01:41:04.329 --> 01:41:07.029
cells. So such a thing is a cultural artifact

01:41:07.029 --> 01:41:09.550
which doesn't just appear out of nowhere. It

01:41:09.550 --> 01:41:12.210
has to have a context. It has to have a background.

01:41:12.289 --> 01:41:17.329
And again, my suggestion would be perhaps a secret

01:41:17.329 --> 01:41:20.390
technology. It's very odd that… Very few of these

01:41:20.390 --> 01:41:22.770
have been found. And it may be that ship owners

01:41:22.770 --> 01:41:25.529
and navigators in Greek times were extremely

01:41:25.529 --> 01:41:28.170
careful about who they shared this technology

01:41:28.170 --> 01:41:31.649
with. Of course. It may have been as top secret

01:41:31.649 --> 01:41:35.729
as nuclear power is in our world today. That

01:41:35.729 --> 01:41:38.789
makes sense. But the fact is that then we have

01:41:38.789 --> 01:41:42.630
to – it exists. It's real. It's there. And then

01:41:42.630 --> 01:41:46.000
we must consider – What's behind it? What led

01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.399
to that? Is that just the latest manifestation

01:41:48.399 --> 01:41:51.359
of something that goes much more deeply back

01:41:51.359 --> 01:41:54.479
into human culture? And I think that is. I suppose

01:41:54.479 --> 01:41:59.539
my main message is that we have a so far untold

01:41:59.539 --> 01:42:01.659
backstory, that we're concentrating entirely

01:42:01.659 --> 01:42:04.979
on the front story. And the backstory is missing,

01:42:05.140 --> 01:42:06.979
very largely missing from the picture. And what

01:42:06.979 --> 01:42:09.020
I've tried to do is to fill in bits of the backstory.

01:42:09.359 --> 01:42:11.899
Do you have anything in this book about the Olmecs?

01:42:12.680 --> 01:42:17.420
No, not really. I mentioned them briefly. I explored

01:42:17.420 --> 01:42:21.119
the Olmec mystery in considerable depth. Can

01:42:21.119 --> 01:42:23.600
you explain that to people? In Fingerprints of

01:42:23.600 --> 01:42:27.159
the Gods. Yes. So it's considered to be the earliest

01:42:27.159 --> 01:42:30.199
high culture of Central America. Everybody's

01:42:30.199 --> 01:42:33.060
heard about the Aztecs. Everybody's heard about

01:42:33.060 --> 01:42:36.659
the Maya. But before the Aztecs and before the

01:42:36.659 --> 01:42:40.180
Maya, there were a culture who are referred to

01:42:40.180 --> 01:42:44.079
as the Olmecs. Again, we don't know what they

01:42:44.079 --> 01:42:46.159
called themselves. That's what the Aztecs called

01:42:46.159 --> 01:42:47.659
them. They called them the Olmecs. It means the

01:42:47.659 --> 01:42:50.060
rubber people because they – a rubber -producing

01:42:50.060 --> 01:42:55.840
area of Mexico. They worked in giant megalithic

01:42:55.840 --> 01:42:59.619
constructions. What they're most famous for is

01:42:59.619 --> 01:43:03.279
these huge carved human heads, which can be on

01:43:03.279 --> 01:43:07.680
a scale of up to 20 to 25 tons in weight and

01:43:07.680 --> 01:43:10.539
which have – Curious features, which have been

01:43:10.539 --> 01:43:13.819
interpreted variously as Polynesian, African,

01:43:14.020 --> 01:43:17.579
don't look like classic Native American features.

01:43:18.170 --> 01:43:20.130
But one of the things one of the things I've

01:43:20.130 --> 01:43:23.310
realized is that there is no classic Native American

01:43:23.310 --> 01:43:27.189
feature that Native Americans are a very have

01:43:27.189 --> 01:43:30.350
a very complex genetic story with very many different

01:43:30.350 --> 01:43:32.970
elements brought into it. And we shouldn't be

01:43:32.970 --> 01:43:35.850
necessarily surprised by the supposedly non Native

01:43:35.850 --> 01:43:39.449
American look. What do we think those helmets

01:43:39.449 --> 01:43:42.319
were that they were wearing? Nobody knows because

01:43:42.319 --> 01:43:45.020
no physical example of such a helmet has ever

01:43:45.020 --> 01:43:47.180
been found, just like no physical example of

01:43:47.180 --> 01:43:50.140
an Egyptian pharaoh's crown has ever been found.

01:43:50.220 --> 01:43:53.460
All we see is the stone reproductions of them.

01:43:53.600 --> 01:43:55.500
Do they universally wear these helmets in these

01:43:55.500 --> 01:43:57.220
stone reproductions? They pretty much all wear

01:43:57.220 --> 01:44:01.079
these helmets in the Olmec stonework. There's

01:44:01.079 --> 01:44:05.229
another fascinating figure. from La Venta, one

01:44:05.229 --> 01:44:08.829
of the Olmec sites, which is the earliest ever

01:44:08.829 --> 01:44:13.310
image of a plumed or feathered serpent. The feathered

01:44:13.310 --> 01:44:15.930
serpent is a famous icon in Central America.

01:44:16.529 --> 01:44:19.649
Quetzalcoatl, who's the god of peace, the bringer

01:44:19.649 --> 01:44:23.590
of civilization, who is associated, for example,

01:44:23.590 --> 01:44:26.930
with the famous pyramid of Kukulkan, which is

01:44:26.930 --> 01:44:28.949
just another name for Quetzalcoatl at Chichen

01:44:28.949 --> 01:44:31.989
Itza, where on the spring equinox, a shadow effect

01:44:31.989 --> 01:44:35.119
creates the... image of a serpent coiling down

01:44:35.119 --> 01:44:37.659
the stairway and joining with the carved head

01:44:37.659 --> 01:44:40.079
of the serpent. There's the image from Leventa.

01:44:40.100 --> 01:44:41.819
That's the earliest image of a plumed serpent

01:44:41.819 --> 01:44:45.899
in the Americas. And sitting in the middle of

01:44:45.899 --> 01:44:47.699
it, and I made a big deal out of this because

01:44:47.699 --> 01:44:49.319
I think it is a big deal in Magicians of the

01:44:49.319 --> 01:44:51.399
Gods, sitting in the middle of it is this human

01:44:51.399 --> 01:44:55.039
figure who's holding this strange bag in his

01:44:55.039 --> 01:44:58.659
hand. And it's just a fact that... Those identical

01:44:58.659 --> 01:45:01.899
bags are found in ancient Sumer in the hands

01:45:01.899 --> 01:45:04.300
of individuals who were considered to be civilization

01:45:04.300 --> 01:45:07.439
bringers. And they also show up on Pillar 43

01:45:07.439 --> 01:45:11.800
at Gobekli Tepe. I call them man bags. And in

01:45:11.800 --> 01:45:13.479
that case at Gobekli Tepe, we know they're at

01:45:13.479 --> 01:45:16.159
least 11 ,600 years old. So I wonder if we're

01:45:16.159 --> 01:45:17.939
looking at a sort of badge of office of a group

01:45:17.939 --> 01:45:20.020
of civilizers who traveled around the world trying

01:45:20.020 --> 01:45:22.640
to bring back to life a lost civilization and

01:45:22.640 --> 01:45:26.319
pass down. I deploy a concept in this book that

01:45:26.319 --> 01:45:29.079
I actually got from Richard Dawkins. Richard

01:45:29.079 --> 01:45:31.000
Dawkins is the author of the book called The

01:45:31.000 --> 01:45:33.520
Selfish Gene. And he's not one of my favorite

01:45:33.520 --> 01:45:36.680
people because he's a materialist reductionist

01:45:36.680 --> 01:45:39.489
and he doesn't believe in. spirit or or any mystery

01:45:39.489 --> 01:45:41.210
in life that we're just accidents of chemistry

01:45:41.210 --> 01:45:44.270
and biology he also has no psychedelic experience

01:45:44.270 --> 01:45:46.250
and he's had no i did challenge him at a public

01:45:46.250 --> 01:45:48.930
event to to go to go have a dozen sessions of

01:45:48.930 --> 01:45:51.369
ayahuasca and still take acid once oh just once

01:45:51.369 --> 01:45:53.710
it would be enough but he has an excellent out

01:45:53.710 --> 01:45:56.069
because and sadly he's had a he's had a stroke

01:45:56.069 --> 01:45:58.510
so he has a good excuse for not for not doing

01:45:58.510 --> 01:46:01.609
that but he's a clever man and one of his concepts

01:46:01.609 --> 01:46:03.670
that he's introduced into human culture is the

01:46:03.670 --> 01:46:06.750
concept of the meme We're all, I think, familiar

01:46:06.750 --> 01:46:10.029
with that word. Genes are physical reproductive

01:46:10.029 --> 01:46:12.970
mechanisms. They reproduce themselves down the

01:46:12.970 --> 01:46:15.289
generations. They replicate. They multiply. They're

01:46:15.289 --> 01:46:17.489
passed on from one individual to another. Memes

01:46:17.489 --> 01:46:20.130
are cultural objects, cultural ideas that are

01:46:20.130 --> 01:46:22.350
passed on and replicate and reproduce themselves.

01:46:22.789 --> 01:46:25.989
And what I see right across the Americas and

01:46:25.989 --> 01:46:28.970
right across the old world as well is a set of

01:46:28.970 --> 01:46:32.430
memes that involve the sky, that involve the

01:46:32.430 --> 01:46:35.619
ground, that involve geometry. involve notions

01:46:35.619 --> 01:46:38.880
of life after death. And I think the only way

01:46:38.880 --> 01:46:41.239
to explain these is that they have been inherited

01:46:41.239 --> 01:46:44.039
from an earlier culture that was in some way

01:46:44.039 --> 01:46:46.859
connected with the ancestors of all of these

01:46:46.859 --> 01:46:49.119
cultures. I think that's what we're looking at

01:46:49.119 --> 01:46:51.199
in the Amazon. We're looking at a meme which

01:46:51.199 --> 01:46:54.140
was deliberately created. Once you mobilize a

01:46:54.140 --> 01:46:57.060
population to start creating huge geometrical

01:46:57.060 --> 01:47:00.279
structures, you are also facilitating many other

01:47:00.279 --> 01:47:02.800
possibilities that an organized population allows.

01:47:03.260 --> 01:47:05.350
I think that's what... happened at gobekli tepe

01:47:05.350 --> 01:47:07.609
i think that's why they created the megalithic

01:47:07.609 --> 01:47:10.489
site there to mobilize the local population of

01:47:10.489 --> 01:47:12.970
hunter -gatherers to give them a project to do

01:47:12.970 --> 01:47:15.449
to engage them and in the process of engaging

01:47:15.449 --> 01:47:18.149
them to teach them the skills of agriculture

01:47:18.149 --> 01:47:21.050
which were which which are fundamental to to

01:47:21.050 --> 01:47:23.430
any concept of of civilization and it's weird

01:47:23.430 --> 01:47:26.329
the way agriculture just suddenly appears in

01:47:26.329 --> 01:47:29.090
in gobekli tepe and there's huge agricultural

01:47:29.090 --> 01:47:34.350
mysteries in the amazon as well May I share a

01:47:34.350 --> 01:47:36.229
couple of those mysteries with you? Before you

01:47:36.229 --> 01:47:38.430
do that, though, can you pull up that image from

01:47:38.430 --> 01:47:41.310
Gobekli Tepe of Pillar – was it Pillar 43? Pillar

01:47:41.310 --> 01:47:44.970
43 in Enclosure D. I would like to see that guy

01:47:44.970 --> 01:47:47.489
holding that bag. That is really fascinating.

01:47:47.890 --> 01:47:50.630
The bags are in a row along the top of the pillar.

01:47:53.050 --> 01:47:56.449
It's Pillar 43 in Enclosure D at Gobekli Tepe.

01:47:56.630 --> 01:47:59.130
Is there an image of that online that's available?

01:47:59.369 --> 01:48:01.920
Okay, here we go. Yeah, there's the bags. So

01:48:01.920 --> 01:48:05.380
there's the bags in a row along the top. It's

01:48:05.380 --> 01:48:07.560
the same sort of square -shaped bag with a curved

01:48:07.560 --> 01:48:10.000
handle that you find on the earliest image of

01:48:10.000 --> 01:48:13.239
the feathered serpent. No, you have to go above

01:48:13.239 --> 01:48:17.119
that, Jamie. Just a little bit higher up the

01:48:17.119 --> 01:48:20.859
pillar. Those bags, right at the top there. It's

01:48:20.859 --> 01:48:23.180
odd that this symbol crops up in many different

01:48:23.180 --> 01:48:25.520
cultures and tends to be associated with some

01:48:25.520 --> 01:48:26.600
kind of… What's the mainstream interpretation

01:48:26.600 --> 01:48:28.520
of those bags? There is no mainstream interpretation

01:48:28.520 --> 01:48:31.479
of those bags. That's my interpretation of those

01:48:31.479 --> 01:48:35.220
bags, which I freely confess. That's how I read

01:48:35.220 --> 01:48:37.520
them. I'm intrigued by the anomaly that the similar

01:48:37.520 --> 01:48:39.779
bag turns up in the hands of the Quetzalcoatl

01:48:39.779 --> 01:48:42.680
figure and turns up in Mesopotamia repeatedly

01:48:42.680 --> 01:48:46.020
in the hands of the individual. so -called the

01:48:46.020 --> 01:48:49.279
Apkallu, the magicians of the gods, the bringers

01:48:49.279 --> 01:48:51.899
of civilization. And the plumed serpent, Quetzalcoatl,

01:48:51.899 --> 01:48:55.460
it's an Aztec god, right? Quetzalcoatl is an

01:48:55.460 --> 01:48:59.600
Aztec god, but the Aztecs acquired him from earlier

01:48:59.600 --> 01:49:01.539
cultures. The very fact that an image of the

01:49:01.539 --> 01:49:04.510
plumed serpent is given such... priority in Olmec

01:49:04.510 --> 01:49:07.170
culture tells us that that system of ideas was

01:49:07.170 --> 01:49:09.810
present during Olmec times, which takes us back

01:49:09.810 --> 01:49:13.869
at least to 1500 BC, probably quite a bit earlier

01:49:13.869 --> 01:49:17.029
than that, whereas the Aztecs are 1500 AD. So

01:49:17.029 --> 01:49:19.630
there's 3000 years between the Aztecs and the

01:49:19.630 --> 01:49:22.010
Olmecs. And that same system of ideas is running

01:49:22.010 --> 01:49:24.569
through all of those cultures. And the Mayans

01:49:24.569 --> 01:49:27.149
had a name for it as well? Kukulkan. And what

01:49:27.149 --> 01:49:30.430
do you think that plume serpent was? I think

01:49:30.430 --> 01:49:33.909
it's very clear from the accounts that have survived

01:49:33.909 --> 01:49:36.050
that what he's associated with are two things

01:49:36.050 --> 01:49:39.470
in particular. One of them, he's a god of peace.

01:49:39.649 --> 01:49:44.289
He's not a war god. And the other thing that

01:49:44.289 --> 01:49:47.949
he's primarily about is giving the gifts of civilization.

01:49:48.729 --> 01:49:51.890
This is what you human beings need to know in

01:49:51.890 --> 01:49:56.010
order to move on to the next level. That is the

01:49:56.010 --> 01:49:59.069
function and the role of Quetzalcoatl. And there

01:49:59.069 --> 01:50:02.090
are very similar... We could refer to them as

01:50:02.090 --> 01:50:05.449
civilizing heroes who are found in other cultures

01:50:05.449 --> 01:50:08.329
and other locations. Osiris in Egypt plays that

01:50:08.329 --> 01:50:11.810
role as a bringer of civilization. There's hardly

01:50:11.810 --> 01:50:14.409
a culture in the ancient world that doesn't remember

01:50:14.409 --> 01:50:18.949
a time far back in remote prehistory when some

01:50:18.949 --> 01:50:22.869
kind of supernaturals or advanced human beings,

01:50:23.010 --> 01:50:26.329
and I prefer the latter, that some kind of advanced

01:50:26.329 --> 01:50:29.250
human beings were involved in a project to...

01:50:29.520 --> 01:50:32.899
disseminate civilization. I mentioned the Tucano

01:50:32.899 --> 01:50:38.199
in the Amazon who are big drinkers of ayahuasca.

01:50:38.380 --> 01:50:42.300
The Tucano have a fascinating origin myth. They

01:50:42.300 --> 01:50:45.579
say that their origin myth states specifically

01:50:45.579 --> 01:50:48.699
that their ancestors were brought to the Amazon.

01:50:49.180 --> 01:50:51.720
They were brought to the Amazon by a group of

01:50:51.720 --> 01:50:54.720
supernaturals who included the daughter of the

01:50:54.720 --> 01:50:57.960
sun and an individual called the helmsman who

01:50:57.960 --> 01:51:01.140
steered the serpent canoe in which this settlement

01:51:01.140 --> 01:51:03.500
mission in the Amazon was performed. And what

01:51:03.500 --> 01:51:06.180
these so -called supernaturals did was they brought

01:51:06.180 --> 01:51:08.520
the ancestors of the Ducano to the Amazon and

01:51:08.520 --> 01:51:10.819
they showed them the best places to settle, the

01:51:10.819 --> 01:51:13.319
best places where they might find hunting, the

01:51:13.319 --> 01:51:14.899
best places where they might create a village,

01:51:15.020 --> 01:51:17.460
the best places for agriculture. And then they

01:51:17.460 --> 01:51:20.619
left. But they left them behind one gift, and

01:51:20.619 --> 01:51:24.359
that gift was ayahuasca. That's the story of

01:51:24.359 --> 01:51:26.579
the origin myth of the Tucano. And it sounds

01:51:26.579 --> 01:51:30.300
to me rather like the other side of the story

01:51:30.300 --> 01:51:33.260
of that DNA signal in the Amazon, that a group

01:51:33.260 --> 01:51:36.260
of people were deliberately settled in the Amazon

01:51:36.260 --> 01:51:40.579
by human beings who they… chose to regard as

01:51:40.579 --> 01:51:43.060
uh as as supernaturals that's that's what makes

01:51:43.060 --> 01:51:45.600
sense of it to me um when i interrupted you to

01:51:45.600 --> 01:51:47.840
talk about quetzalcoatl what were you about to

01:51:47.840 --> 01:51:50.479
say i can't remember i'm in california i've been

01:51:50.479 --> 01:51:55.039
smoking lots of dope you know we were talking

01:51:55.039 --> 01:51:56.859
about different things in the amazon should we

01:51:56.859 --> 01:51:58.899
rewind and figure out what we said the serpent

01:51:58.899 --> 01:52:01.500
god you're talking about uh before quetzalcoatl

01:52:01.500 --> 01:52:05.329
before that I have another question. The Olmecs,

01:52:05.409 --> 01:52:08.090
you were talking about the genetics of these

01:52:08.090 --> 01:52:11.829
people that live in Native Americans, that they

01:52:11.829 --> 01:52:14.890
vary widely, but the Olmecs seem to have very

01:52:14.890 --> 01:52:17.729
similar features, the thick lips, the wide noses.

01:52:17.729 --> 01:52:21.890
Why do we think that is? Well, this is part of

01:52:21.890 --> 01:52:25.140
a... A curious mystery that is not unconnected

01:52:25.140 --> 01:52:29.579
to the genetic mystery. It's been known by archaeologists

01:52:29.579 --> 01:52:32.279
for quite a long time that there are anomalous

01:52:32.279 --> 01:52:38.699
skulls in parts of Brazil, which appear to show

01:52:38.699 --> 01:52:43.439
very strongly Polynesian or... African features,

01:52:43.600 --> 01:52:46.539
very much like the features that we see on the

01:52:46.539 --> 01:52:49.739
Olmec heads. And a number of archaeologists who

01:52:49.739 --> 01:52:51.640
got into trouble with their colleagues for this

01:52:51.640 --> 01:52:54.739
have used that to argue many years ago, 30, 40

01:52:54.739 --> 01:52:58.119
years ago, that the settlement story of the Americas

01:52:58.119 --> 01:53:02.399
is much more complicated than we've realized.

01:53:03.260 --> 01:53:07.840
And what the DNA is doing is it's telling us

01:53:07.840 --> 01:53:11.210
that There was something really weird happened

01:53:11.210 --> 01:53:14.529
with settlement. You see, what happened with

01:53:14.529 --> 01:53:19.350
those African or Polynesian looking skulls was

01:53:19.350 --> 01:53:23.529
that they were tested for DNA when DNA technology

01:53:23.529 --> 01:53:27.270
was not as advanced as it is today. And what

01:53:27.270 --> 01:53:29.670
that DNA showed was that they were more closely

01:53:29.670 --> 01:53:32.630
related to modern Native Americans than they

01:53:32.630 --> 01:53:35.800
are to any other. So the notion that there was

01:53:35.800 --> 01:53:38.739
some connection with Polynesia or Africa was

01:53:38.739 --> 01:53:42.520
dismissed. But now that we have very firm evidence

01:53:42.520 --> 01:53:46.579
of an Australasian genetic signal, Australian

01:53:46.579 --> 01:53:50.399
Aborigines, Papua New Guinea, Melanesians, with

01:53:50.399 --> 01:53:52.140
those kind of features, now that we have the

01:53:52.140 --> 01:53:54.020
genetic evidence that that is found in the Amazon,

01:53:54.060 --> 01:53:56.319
we have to go back to that old evidence and reconsider

01:53:56.319 --> 01:54:00.579
it. Wow. Yeah, I would love to find out what

01:54:00.579 --> 01:54:03.699
that is. They've always fascinated me. The Olmecs,

01:54:03.800 --> 01:54:07.859
it's always been such a strange image, the large

01:54:07.859 --> 01:54:11.460
heads with the helmets on them. Do they universally

01:54:11.460 --> 01:54:14.520
look like that? All of the features are very

01:54:14.520 --> 01:54:17.260
similar. Wow. Very similar. And always with the

01:54:17.260 --> 01:54:20.460
helmets. And almost always. I won't claim that

01:54:20.460 --> 01:54:22.640
every single Olmec head has a helmet of it because

01:54:22.640 --> 01:54:24.479
I think I've seen one that didn't. It's quite

01:54:24.479 --> 01:54:27.840
a while ago since I… explored the Olmec area.

01:54:28.039 --> 01:54:29.880
But what's fascinating about them is they are

01:54:29.880 --> 01:54:33.060
supposedly the first high civilization of Central

01:54:33.060 --> 01:54:35.260
America, that they create structures on a massive

01:54:35.260 --> 01:54:38.300
scale, that you can see connections between them

01:54:38.300 --> 01:54:40.899
and the later Maya. That whole mystery of the

01:54:40.899 --> 01:54:43.380
Mayan calendar was clearly inherited from the

01:54:43.380 --> 01:54:45.359
Olmecs. It wasn't something the Maya made up.

01:54:45.439 --> 01:54:48.800
The Olmecs used that same symbolism. So the Mayan

01:54:48.800 --> 01:54:52.319
calendar is actually an Olmec calendar. then

01:54:52.319 --> 01:54:54.420
consider the possibility that the Olmecs may

01:54:54.420 --> 01:54:57.239
just be the latest, the earliest surviving manifestation

01:54:57.239 --> 01:54:59.760
of that calendar. It could go back much further

01:54:59.760 --> 01:55:03.020
than that. Do you plan on having any debates

01:55:03.020 --> 01:55:06.840
with people that oppose these ideas? Well, it

01:55:06.840 --> 01:55:10.140
was interesting on your very show, Joe, to have

01:55:10.140 --> 01:55:13.560
the debate that involved Michael Shermer, who's

01:55:13.560 --> 01:55:17.819
the editor of the Skeptic magazine, and some

01:55:17.819 --> 01:55:21.619
colleague of his who came in online yeah who

01:55:21.619 --> 01:55:26.420
I got a bit annoyed with and and myself and my

01:55:26.420 --> 01:55:28.659
great friend and colleague the genius Randall

01:55:28.659 --> 01:55:33.239
Carson and and I felt that that was a very useful

01:55:34.779 --> 01:55:38.020
I felt that it's possibly the first time that

01:55:38.020 --> 01:55:40.659
those of us on the alternative side of the argument

01:55:40.659 --> 01:55:43.600
about history were given an opportunity really

01:55:43.600 --> 01:55:46.880
to put our evidence forward and to confront so

01:55:46.880 --> 01:55:49.800
-called skeptics. Well, so -called, that's what

01:55:49.800 --> 01:55:52.500
he calls himself, Michael Shermer, with this

01:55:52.500 --> 01:55:56.500
evidence. And obviously I'm biased, but I don't

01:55:56.500 --> 01:56:00.060
feel that he fielded the situation. particularly

01:56:00.060 --> 01:56:02.060
well. I don't think mainstream archaeology came

01:56:02.060 --> 01:56:04.899
out of that looking really good. I think it came

01:56:04.899 --> 01:56:08.380
out of that looking rather ignorant and uninformed.

01:56:09.079 --> 01:56:12.720
And a man like Michael Shermer, who is a professional

01:56:12.720 --> 01:56:16.399
skeptic, cannot begin to match the knowledge

01:56:16.399 --> 01:56:18.779
of a man like Randall Carson, who has devoted

01:56:18.779 --> 01:56:22.359
his whole life to walking the walk of the geology

01:56:22.359 --> 01:56:25.760
of the end of the Ice Age in North America. And

01:56:25.760 --> 01:56:28.760
that showed on that debate. So I think the debate...

01:56:29.100 --> 01:56:32.000
was worth doing. I think it showed that the alternative

01:56:32.000 --> 01:56:35.380
side isn't just wishy -washy stuff out there

01:56:35.380 --> 01:56:37.079
on the fringes of things, that there are those

01:56:37.079 --> 01:56:39.140
of us working in this field who are using really

01:56:39.140 --> 01:56:43.199
solid information and who our project is to rewrite

01:56:43.199 --> 01:56:45.199
history. And we're not going to do that with

01:56:45.199 --> 01:56:48.560
slight. It has to be solid information. I think

01:56:48.560 --> 01:56:51.920
we had the opportunity on your show to say that

01:56:51.920 --> 01:56:54.920
that solid information is there. I'm not claiming

01:56:54.920 --> 01:56:57.000
it was a complete victory for the alternative

01:56:57.000 --> 01:56:59.800
side. Michael Sherm is a smart guy, and he put

01:56:59.800 --> 01:57:02.000
forward some good arguments too. And there were

01:57:02.000 --> 01:57:04.119
constructive aspects of that debate, which I

01:57:04.119 --> 01:57:07.199
appreciated. I'd like to see much more engagement

01:57:07.199 --> 01:57:09.960
and much more positive approach. I wish the skeptics,

01:57:09.979 --> 01:57:12.359
welcome to their skepticism, but I wish they'd

01:57:12.359 --> 01:57:15.680
be less hateful, less full of derision. less

01:57:15.680 --> 01:57:18.699
despising. Well, they're so defensive with their

01:57:18.699 --> 01:57:21.699
ideas. And so defensive with their ideas when

01:57:21.699 --> 01:57:24.779
the possibility is there for a constructive...

01:57:26.180 --> 01:57:29.260
Well, what's interesting to me is that as this

01:57:29.260 --> 01:57:31.920
evidence piles up and it seems to be continuing

01:57:31.920 --> 01:57:36.739
to pile up as more like these impact sites and

01:57:36.739 --> 01:57:41.500
more of this ancient civilization material gets

01:57:41.500 --> 01:57:44.260
unearthed, it's almost insurmountable. Yeah.

01:57:44.300 --> 01:57:47.800
And this is how paradigms shift. I mean, everybody's

01:57:47.800 --> 01:57:50.029
familiar with the concept of a… paradigm shift

01:57:50.029 --> 01:57:52.989
and there's a book called The Structure of Scientific

01:57:52.989 --> 01:57:55.930
Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn which outlines what

01:57:55.930 --> 01:57:58.989
a paradigm shift is where an established model

01:57:58.989 --> 01:58:02.050
in some discipline of science that has been in

01:58:02.050 --> 01:58:03.930
control of people's thinking for a very long

01:58:03.930 --> 01:58:07.210
time suddenly falls apart and it doesn't fall

01:58:07.210 --> 01:58:09.430
apart suddenly. What happens is that there's

01:58:09.430 --> 01:58:12.250
an accumulation of evidence which that model

01:58:12.250 --> 01:58:14.930
cannot explain. That paradigm cannot explain

01:58:14.930 --> 01:58:17.210
it. It seemed like a great paradigm at one point

01:58:17.210 --> 01:58:20.090
but then it doesn't explain this and then it

01:58:20.090 --> 01:58:22.590
doesn't explain like Like the paradigm that says

01:58:22.590 --> 01:58:24.949
that megalithic architecture is only 6 ,000 years

01:58:24.949 --> 01:58:26.649
old and that the first megalithic architecture

01:58:26.649 --> 01:58:29.590
was in Malta. That can't explain the massive

01:58:29.590 --> 01:58:32.409
megalithic site of Göbekli Tepe in Turkey 5 ,500

01:58:32.409 --> 01:58:35.649
years before that. It's evidence like that, the

01:58:35.649 --> 01:58:37.710
slow accumulation of evidence that the existing

01:58:37.710 --> 01:58:40.569
system cannot explain, that at an eventual point,

01:58:40.750 --> 01:58:43.689
no matter how strongly the advocates of the existing

01:58:43.689 --> 01:58:46.510
system hold on to it, no matter how determined

01:58:46.510 --> 01:58:49.449
they are in their defense, no matter what dirty

01:58:49.449 --> 01:58:51.930
tricks they may choose, to deploy to undermine

01:58:51.930 --> 01:58:54.350
their opponents, sooner or later the evidence

01:58:54.350 --> 01:58:57.470
overwhelms them and the paradigm goes down and

01:58:57.470 --> 01:59:00.489
you have a new way of thinking. And that is the

01:59:00.489 --> 01:59:03.229
story of science and it is a story that I think

01:59:03.229 --> 01:59:05.970
we're at a tipping point in our understanding

01:59:05.970 --> 01:59:08.550
of the past of the human species. I am not saying

01:59:08.550 --> 01:59:12.390
that I am 100 % right. I believe that what I'm

01:59:12.390 --> 01:59:14.529
doing that's worthwhile is I'm asking questions

01:59:14.529 --> 01:59:16.829
about the past that haven't been asked enough.

01:59:17.420 --> 01:59:19.880
I'm putting archaeologists on the spot and demanding

01:59:19.880 --> 01:59:24.079
that they explain themselves. I don't claim that

01:59:24.079 --> 01:59:26.000
I'm right. I'm offering an alternative theory,

01:59:26.100 --> 01:59:28.399
and my objective is to get people to think for

01:59:28.399 --> 01:59:30.680
themselves, to think about this stuff, and not

01:59:30.680 --> 01:59:34.359
to accept the voice of authority as the sole

01:59:34.359 --> 01:59:38.039
medium of truth. That's what I've tried to do.

01:59:38.100 --> 01:59:42.500
Have you had any archaeologists review any of

01:59:42.500 --> 01:59:45.640
this work and change their opinions? No. No.

01:59:45.659 --> 01:59:49.800
I haven't. But what I have found, and I found

01:59:49.800 --> 01:59:52.319
it interestingly during the research trips for

01:59:52.319 --> 01:59:56.579
America before, is a younger generation of archaeologists

01:59:56.579 --> 02:00:00.000
who are in the field. And they are quite different

02:00:00.000 --> 02:00:02.800
from the older generation of archaeologists who

02:00:02.800 --> 02:00:05.520
were running the whole scene 25 years ago. Now

02:00:05.520 --> 02:00:07.279
we have a very different younger generation,

02:00:07.300 --> 02:00:09.479
a younger generation that has been exposed to

02:00:09.479 --> 02:00:12.560
open -minded thinking, that has been exposed

02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:15.640
to the Internet, that itself as part of the general

02:00:15.640 --> 02:00:17.619
pattern of the younger generation is suspicious

02:00:17.619 --> 02:00:20.159
of authority. I'm meeting young archaeologists

02:00:20.159 --> 02:00:22.060
on sites. For example, I met a couple of really

02:00:22.060 --> 02:00:26.119
amazing young minds on a site called Blackwater

02:00:26.119 --> 02:00:31.470
Draw. in Arizona, New Mexico, where one of the

02:00:31.470 --> 02:00:33.930
first Clovis sites, the young archaeologists

02:00:33.930 --> 02:00:37.170
I met there were incredibly open -minded and

02:00:37.170 --> 02:00:40.430
really willing to consider extraordinary possibilities

02:00:40.430 --> 02:00:42.729
about the past and privately admitted to me that

02:00:42.729 --> 02:00:45.960
they'd read my books. Well, that's where I get

02:00:45.960 --> 02:00:47.859
the hope. I get the hope in this young generation

02:00:47.859 --> 02:00:49.579
that is growing up with the Internet that does

02:00:49.579 --> 02:00:52.279
understand that there's a lot more out there

02:00:52.279 --> 02:00:54.279
than just what they're being taught in schools.

02:00:54.659 --> 02:00:58.479
Yes. Yeah. This is where the hope lies and it

02:00:58.479 --> 02:01:02.279
lies in every area. And it's why one of the intriguing

02:01:02.279 --> 02:01:06.180
things that has happened with me and your show

02:01:06.180 --> 02:01:09.239
is an important part of this is that when I go

02:01:09.239 --> 02:01:12.039
around giving public events, doing a public.

02:01:13.140 --> 02:01:16.699
presentation of my work. The demography of the

02:01:16.699 --> 02:01:18.880
audience is extremely interesting, and this is

02:01:18.880 --> 02:01:20.739
true whether I'm giving the talk in Britain,

02:01:20.859 --> 02:01:22.880
whether I'm giving it in Canada, whether I'm

02:01:22.880 --> 02:01:25.500
giving it in America. Part of the audience are

02:01:25.500 --> 02:01:28.939
older people who read me in the 1990s, who got

02:01:28.939 --> 02:01:30.920
onto my work with Fingerprints of the Gods in

02:01:30.920 --> 02:01:33.220
1995, and they've stuck with me, and they've

02:01:33.220 --> 02:01:36.729
carried on reading my work. Another part of the

02:01:36.729 --> 02:01:39.350
audience, a very big part of the audience, consists

02:01:39.350 --> 02:01:42.630
to a large extent of young people, most of whom

02:01:42.630 --> 02:01:44.689
are men, but there are women amongst them as

02:01:44.689 --> 02:01:48.609
well. And what those mainly young men come up

02:01:48.609 --> 02:01:52.470
to me and say at the end of the event is, we

02:01:52.470 --> 02:01:54.630
first encountered your work on Joe Rogan's show.

02:01:56.140 --> 02:01:58.880
it completely opened our minds it changed it

02:01:58.880 --> 02:02:01.760
i've had so many young men say this has changed

02:02:01.760 --> 02:02:04.300
my life and then i asked myself well why should

02:02:04.300 --> 02:02:06.960
a different take on the past change people's

02:02:06.960 --> 02:02:08.840
lives why should people feel that their lives

02:02:08.840 --> 02:02:10.479
have been changed by a different take on the

02:02:10.479 --> 02:02:12.939
past which i add they would not know about unless

02:02:12.939 --> 02:02:15.319
you'd had the good grace to to bring me on that

02:02:15.319 --> 02:02:17.479
on your show this these ideas would not be known

02:02:17.479 --> 02:02:19.760
but they are known because of the amazing outreach

02:02:19.760 --> 02:02:22.119
of your show and the answer to that question

02:02:22.119 --> 02:02:24.579
why does it why does it change a person's life

02:02:24.579 --> 02:02:30.180
is that Once we realize that we have been misinformed

02:02:30.180 --> 02:02:34.279
about our past, that everything that we've built

02:02:34.279 --> 02:02:37.640
our idea of who we are upon and of where we're

02:02:37.640 --> 02:02:41.380
going as a culture may be founded on falsehoods

02:02:41.380 --> 02:02:45.420
and perhaps even deliberate lies. Once that is

02:02:45.420 --> 02:02:48.680
realized, then… all the questions about the nature

02:02:48.680 --> 02:02:51.920
of the society we live in become open. And young

02:02:51.920 --> 02:02:55.439
people are feeling the need to take an independent

02:02:55.439 --> 02:02:58.819
path, not to follow the path that has been set

02:02:58.819 --> 02:03:02.359
down for them by previous generations. And in

02:03:02.359 --> 02:03:05.159
some way, and I'm very gratified to hear this,

02:03:05.239 --> 02:03:08.819
the fact that I'm an elder now, I'm 69 next birthday.

02:03:09.880 --> 02:03:12.979
You look great. Thank you. The fact that I, as

02:03:12.979 --> 02:03:16.659
an elder, have... consistently pursued an independent

02:03:16.659 --> 02:03:21.180
path have been willing to put up with the shit

02:03:21.180 --> 02:03:24.159
that's been thrown at me over the years but have

02:03:24.159 --> 02:03:27.239
stuck to my guns and have continued to add new

02:03:27.239 --> 02:03:29.220
information to the dossier of information that

02:03:29.220 --> 02:03:32.140
i put forward that is and i'm encouraged to see

02:03:32.140 --> 02:03:34.600
this that's found as inspiring by younger people

02:03:34.600 --> 02:03:37.779
and what what better gift could an old guy hope

02:03:37.779 --> 02:03:40.479
to leave to the world than a younger generation

02:03:40.479 --> 02:03:43.180
who feel inspired by that person's work to change

02:03:43.180 --> 02:03:45.899
the world Well, I'm very, very thankful that

02:03:45.899 --> 02:03:47.819
I could introduce people to you because your

02:03:47.819 --> 02:03:50.760
first book that I read of you, Fingerprints of

02:03:50.760 --> 02:03:53.060
the Gods, changed my view of the world. I mean,

02:03:53.100 --> 02:03:55.140
I remember putting that book down after I was

02:03:55.140 --> 02:03:58.939
finishing and going, wow, if he's right, this

02:03:58.939 --> 02:04:01.920
whole thing is a mess. Yeah, a complete mess.

02:04:02.260 --> 02:04:05.800
Because our idea of who we are is very much founded

02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:09.319
in our idea of who we were. And I think one of

02:04:09.319 --> 02:04:11.199
the mistakes that's made in our civilization

02:04:11.199 --> 02:04:15.779
is that We are very conceited. We're very big

02:04:15.779 --> 02:04:19.060
-headed. And we tend to view the whole story

02:04:19.060 --> 02:04:21.420
of history as though it's a project that leads

02:04:21.420 --> 02:04:24.439
to us, that we're what it's all about. And I

02:04:24.439 --> 02:04:29.859
think what is, how can I put it, undermining

02:04:29.859 --> 02:04:34.380
of the existing system about… A new take on the

02:04:34.380 --> 02:04:38.439
past is the notion that we're not what it's all

02:04:38.439 --> 02:04:41.539
about at all, that there may have been an earlier

02:04:41.539 --> 02:04:44.399
civilization that reached a high level of advancement,

02:04:44.579 --> 02:04:46.340
perhaps different from ours, but nevertheless

02:04:46.340 --> 02:04:49.340
an advanced civilization, which was just... taken

02:04:49.340 --> 02:04:52.899
out of the story completely by a global cataclysm.

02:04:53.340 --> 02:04:56.300
Then we suddenly realize that in a way we're

02:04:56.300 --> 02:04:58.319
here accidentally, that it's not been a process

02:04:58.319 --> 02:05:01.859
that's been all about us. And that if we've been

02:05:01.859 --> 02:05:04.420
misinformed about how we got here, then we need

02:05:04.420 --> 02:05:07.300
to get the true information about what's going

02:05:07.300 --> 02:05:11.159
on. So these are, in a way, profoundly revolutionary

02:05:11.159 --> 02:05:14.439
ideas. They do lead people on a path of inquiry

02:05:14.439 --> 02:05:17.520
that leads to questioning of everything. And

02:05:17.520 --> 02:05:20.260
our fears that you were just discussing earlier

02:05:20.260 --> 02:05:25.260
about how soft we are in comparison to past civilizations

02:05:25.260 --> 02:05:27.640
in terms of our ability to live off the land,

02:05:27.819 --> 02:05:31.159
that's one aspect that bothers me. But one of

02:05:31.159 --> 02:05:32.760
the big ones that bothers me is the fact that

02:05:32.760 --> 02:05:34.840
everything is digital. All of our information

02:05:34.840 --> 02:05:37.800
is stored on hard drives. You bet. And if that

02:05:37.800 --> 02:05:41.060
goes down, there's not much left. You have paper

02:05:41.060 --> 02:05:46.510
books and a few thousands of years. imagine what

02:05:46.510 --> 02:05:49.590
would be left. We would lose all of our advancement.

02:05:49.890 --> 02:05:53.149
Well, I can speak to this at a personal level.

02:05:53.329 --> 02:05:56.050
There was a time when I was an excellent map

02:05:56.050 --> 02:06:00.729
reader. I could navigate anywhere with maps.

02:06:01.189 --> 02:06:04.050
My wife, Santa, and I did huge journeys in Mexico

02:06:04.050 --> 02:06:07.069
back in the early 1990s in really cheap hire

02:06:07.069 --> 02:06:10.430
cars with maps. And we found our way everywhere

02:06:10.430 --> 02:06:14.189
without any problem. Today, I can hardly use

02:06:14.189 --> 02:06:17.199
a map. The skill of using a map has lapsed within

02:06:17.199 --> 02:06:21.000
me. Why? Because of GPS. GPS technology has come

02:06:21.000 --> 02:06:25.720
along and it always tells me where I am and being

02:06:25.720 --> 02:06:29.760
a bit lazy. I just accept that technology. But

02:06:29.760 --> 02:06:32.300
then I had cause to ask myself this just the

02:06:32.300 --> 02:06:34.539
other day. Supposing GPS, supposing all those

02:06:34.539 --> 02:06:36.979
satellites go down and there's no GPS, is the

02:06:36.979 --> 02:06:39.739
whole industrialized human race is going to suddenly

02:06:39.739 --> 02:06:42.739
be lost? All those Uber drivers who don't know

02:06:42.739 --> 02:06:45.579
their way from A to B and who rely entirely on

02:06:45.579 --> 02:06:48.260
their GPSs, they won't know where they're going.

02:06:48.399 --> 02:06:51.619
And it's true with digital data. Digital data,

02:06:51.939 --> 02:06:57.579
unlike print data, is very fragile. and requires

02:06:57.579 --> 02:07:00.380
programs in order to access and interpret it

02:07:00.380 --> 02:07:02.920
that are much more complicated than simply cracking

02:07:02.920 --> 02:07:05.380
the code of a lost language. I mean, the programs

02:07:05.380 --> 02:07:08.000
vary between different phone platforms. Exactly.

02:07:08.180 --> 02:07:10.479
They vary in computer platforms. It's just...

02:07:10.859 --> 02:07:14.039
It's so fragile and it's so – I mean, I don't

02:07:14.039 --> 02:07:15.420
know if there's any precautions that have been

02:07:15.420 --> 02:07:17.180
taken in place to preserve this information in

02:07:17.180 --> 02:07:20.359
case of like what Robert Shock described, coronal

02:07:20.359 --> 02:07:22.359
mass ejection or something crazy. Take down all

02:07:22.359 --> 02:07:24.500
the satellites. Yeah. No, I don't think preparation

02:07:24.500 --> 02:07:27.479
has been made. And I don't – and it's very clear

02:07:27.479 --> 02:07:30.899
that preparation is not being made for the risk

02:07:30.899 --> 02:07:36.340
of another cosmic impact. And again, a point

02:07:36.340 --> 02:07:39.079
that I'd like to make about this is that we are

02:07:39.079 --> 02:07:42.109
at – We are in a sense in a place where history

02:07:42.109 --> 02:07:45.930
can repeat itself, that there are certain cycles

02:07:45.930 --> 02:07:50.550
at work. The work on the comet impact 12 ,800

02:07:50.550 --> 02:07:54.890
years ago has very clearly and specifically identified

02:07:54.890 --> 02:07:58.489
the debris trail of that comet. And that debris

02:07:58.489 --> 02:08:02.170
trail is the... torrid meteor stream and it's

02:08:02.170 --> 02:08:04.149
called the torrid meteor stream because it appears

02:08:04.149 --> 02:08:06.189
to emanate from the region of the sky in which

02:08:06.189 --> 02:08:09.810
the constellation of taurus sits it doesn't it's

02:08:09.810 --> 02:08:11.710
within our solar system it's an optical illusion

02:08:12.649 --> 02:08:16.189
The torrid meteor stream is a giant complex of

02:08:16.189 --> 02:08:21.470
debris. It is 30 million kilometers wide. What

02:08:21.470 --> 02:08:24.029
you had was an original comet that might have

02:08:24.029 --> 02:08:27.510
been 100 to 200 kilometers in diameter, a small

02:08:27.510 --> 02:08:31.010
moon, which fragmented and broke up into multiple,

02:08:31.090 --> 02:08:34.069
multiple parts. And those parts began to spread

02:08:34.069 --> 02:08:36.489
out along the whole orbit of the torrid meteor

02:08:36.489 --> 02:08:39.430
stream and to widen, the whole thing widened.

02:08:39.449 --> 02:08:42.300
So it's like a giant tube of debris. And the

02:08:42.300 --> 02:08:44.939
evidence and the argument is that 12 ,800 years

02:08:44.939 --> 02:08:48.479
ago, several large bits of that debris fell out

02:08:48.479 --> 02:08:50.979
of the taurid meteor stream and impacted with

02:08:50.979 --> 02:08:53.579
the Earth. The problem is that the taurid meteor

02:08:53.579 --> 02:08:57.199
stream still exists. And our planet still passes

02:08:57.199 --> 02:09:00.720
through it twice a year. And those passages take

02:09:00.720 --> 02:09:03.899
place in June and in November. And each passage

02:09:03.899 --> 02:09:07.300
takes 12 and a half days. And the same group

02:09:07.300 --> 02:09:09.720
of scientists who are looking at the evidence

02:09:09.720 --> 02:09:13.060
for the impacts 12 ,800 years ago are deeply

02:09:13.060 --> 02:09:16.479
concerned that we may face future impacts from

02:09:16.479 --> 02:09:18.380
the Taurid meteor stream, that there are still

02:09:18.380 --> 02:09:20.880
large objects up there. This is not theory. This

02:09:20.880 --> 02:09:23.859
is a fact. There's a comet up there called Comet

02:09:23.859 --> 02:09:26.619
Enki, which is part of the Taurid meteor stream.

02:09:26.760 --> 02:09:29.359
It's a large fragment of the original giant comet.

02:09:29.420 --> 02:09:31.520
Comet Enki has a diameter of, I don't know, five

02:09:31.520 --> 02:09:35.840
or six kilometers. There's 19. recognized huge

02:09:35.840 --> 02:09:38.119
objects within the taurid meteor stream calculations

02:09:38.119 --> 02:09:41.600
indicate that there may be as much as 200 asteroids

02:09:41.600 --> 02:09:44.340
within the taurid meteor stream of a diameter

02:09:44.340 --> 02:09:46.560
of a kilometer or more which would have catastrophic

02:09:46.560 --> 02:09:49.420
effect if they if they hit the earth and responsible

02:09:49.420 --> 02:09:52.239
astronomers regard the taurid meteor stream as

02:09:52.239 --> 02:09:54.039
the greatest collision hazard facing mankind

02:09:54.039 --> 02:09:57.239
at the present time And it's not something that

02:09:57.239 --> 02:10:00.020
we need to fall into despair about because it's

02:10:00.020 --> 02:10:02.420
perfectly within the level of our technology

02:10:02.420 --> 02:10:04.979
to do something about it. What could they do?

02:10:05.140 --> 02:10:08.220
Well, to give you an example, commercial interests

02:10:08.220 --> 02:10:10.039
are looking right now, and the technology is

02:10:10.039 --> 02:10:12.659
there, to mine asteroids. We can go to asteroids

02:10:12.659 --> 02:10:15.180
if the commercial interest is high. high enough.

02:10:15.380 --> 02:10:17.760
We can go to them, we can mine them, we can extract

02:10:17.760 --> 02:10:19.340
minerals, we can bring them back to the Earth.

02:10:19.500 --> 02:10:23.060
The same technology would allow you to move asteroids

02:10:23.060 --> 02:10:26.039
or comet fragments. You don't want to blow them

02:10:26.039 --> 02:10:28.739
up with a nuke. That would be a really bad idea.

02:10:28.960 --> 02:10:34.369
That would turn... one large object into multiple

02:10:34.369 --> 02:10:36.850
smaller objects which could cause equally massive

02:10:36.850 --> 02:10:39.409
devastation and would be very difficult to predict

02:10:39.409 --> 02:10:41.670
where that devastation was going to fall what

02:10:41.670 --> 02:10:44.250
you want to do is to nudge them and move them

02:10:44.250 --> 02:10:47.029
out of a dangerous orbit into a less dangerous

02:10:47.029 --> 02:10:49.750
orbit and the evidence is in the next 30 years

02:10:49.750 --> 02:10:51.750
we are going to be passing through dangerous

02:10:51.750 --> 02:10:53.649
filaments of the torrid meteor stream and if

02:10:53.649 --> 02:10:56.409
we were smart we would be devoting some resources

02:10:56.409 --> 02:10:59.210
to protecting our cosmic environment just as

02:10:59.210 --> 02:11:01.039
there are many issues that we need to devote

02:11:01.039 --> 02:11:04.479
resources to. Unfortunately, the one that's most

02:11:04.479 --> 02:11:07.079
attractive to our politicians at the moment is

02:11:07.079 --> 02:11:12.659
warfare. We devote limitless resources to technologies

02:11:12.659 --> 02:11:16.039
of mass destruction. There really is no end to

02:11:16.039 --> 02:11:18.000
the amount that we're prepared to spend on that

02:11:18.000 --> 02:11:20.159
in terms of our so -called security. We feel

02:11:20.159 --> 02:11:22.859
somehow we're making ourselves more secure by

02:11:22.859 --> 02:11:25.100
having these incredible weapons and spending

02:11:25.100 --> 02:11:27.979
trillions of dollars on them. But the cosmos

02:11:27.979 --> 02:11:30.520
doesn't give a fuck about any of it. that the

02:11:30.520 --> 02:11:33.159
cosmos is out there with these with these giant

02:11:33.159 --> 02:11:36.819
giant objects uh which have a far greater explosive

02:11:36.819 --> 02:11:40.800
power than all the nuclear um weapons stored

02:11:40.800 --> 02:11:43.079
on earth at the at the present time the comet

02:11:43.079 --> 02:11:47.380
shoemaker levy 9 which hit jupiter in 1994 had

02:11:47.380 --> 02:11:51.239
a Total calculated explosive power of 300 gigatons.

02:11:51.399 --> 02:11:54.000
If you took the entire nuclear arsenal of the

02:11:54.000 --> 02:11:56.079
world today and blew it all up at once, it would

02:11:56.079 --> 02:11:59.779
yield 6 .4 gigatons. So these objects are producing

02:11:59.779 --> 02:12:03.340
catastrophic results on a scale that far beyond

02:12:03.340 --> 02:12:05.680
anything that we ourselves could do with nuclear

02:12:05.680 --> 02:12:08.109
weapons. It's time we spent a bit less. Time

02:12:08.109 --> 02:12:10.630
and money on weapons of mass destruction and

02:12:10.630 --> 02:12:12.949
a bit more on looking after this beautiful garden

02:12:12.949 --> 02:12:15.590
that we call the Earth and that is our home and

02:12:15.590 --> 02:12:17.970
it will be the home of our children and our children's

02:12:17.970 --> 02:12:20.350
children. I'm a grandfather now. I feel passionately

02:12:20.350 --> 02:12:22.789
about this. We need to look after this planet.

02:12:22.909 --> 02:12:25.670
It's our responsibility as a human species to

02:12:25.670 --> 02:12:27.829
do so. And one of the challenges, it's not the

02:12:27.829 --> 02:12:30.170
only challenge there. many, many other challenges.

02:12:30.310 --> 02:12:33.229
One of the challenges is to pay attention to

02:12:33.229 --> 02:12:36.489
our cosmic environment and to realize that the

02:12:36.489 --> 02:12:40.289
cosmos can intervene cataclysmically in the human

02:12:40.289 --> 02:12:42.829
story and that the Taurid meteor stream in particular

02:12:42.829 --> 02:12:45.029
may have been a hidden hand in human history,

02:12:45.090 --> 02:12:46.810
that there may have been other impacts in the

02:12:46.810 --> 02:12:50.010
last 13 ,000 years that have affected and changed

02:12:50.010 --> 02:12:53.699
the course of humanity on this earth. The ancients

02:12:53.699 --> 02:12:55.659
were very good at paying attention to the sky.

02:12:56.140 --> 02:12:59.539
We ourselves have amazing tech to study the sky,

02:12:59.659 --> 02:13:02.260
but for some reason we're ignoring this problem

02:13:02.260 --> 02:13:04.899
of cosmic impacts. And that's incredibly irresponsible

02:13:04.899 --> 02:13:08.039
because, as I said a moment ago, it is a solvable

02:13:08.039 --> 02:13:10.859
problem. It is within the limits of our technology.

02:13:11.159 --> 02:13:13.939
It would require a global cooperative effort

02:13:13.939 --> 02:13:16.920
to sweep our cosmic environment clean, but it

02:13:16.920 --> 02:13:19.420
could be done. And a side product of that global

02:13:19.420 --> 02:13:22.380
cooperation might be a friendlier, more nurturing,

02:13:22.510 --> 02:13:25.850
more loving more positive human community it

02:13:25.850 --> 02:13:29.430
is very odd that we have this infantile nature

02:13:29.430 --> 02:13:32.869
even as grown adults and world leaders that we

02:13:32.869 --> 02:13:36.529
don't we do like to ignore imminent danger as

02:13:36.529 --> 02:13:38.789
long as it hasn't affected us in the past yes

02:13:38.789 --> 02:13:42.369
there's no real moment we can point to other

02:13:42.369 --> 02:13:46.390
than Tunguska In photographic history, modern

02:13:46.390 --> 02:13:48.449
history where you could take pictures of things.

02:13:48.550 --> 02:13:52.770
If I can pause you on that very point, the evidence

02:13:52.770 --> 02:13:55.489
is compelling that the Tunguska event was an

02:13:55.489 --> 02:13:57.729
object that fell out of the Taurid meteor stream.

02:13:57.869 --> 02:14:00.189
That happened at the peak of the Beta Taurids

02:14:00.189 --> 02:14:05.369
in June 1908. It is extremely likely that that

02:14:05.369 --> 02:14:08.310
Tunguska object came from the Taurid meteor stream

02:14:08.310 --> 02:14:10.090
because we were passing through the Taurid meteor

02:14:10.090 --> 02:14:13.180
stream at exactly that time. And the Tunguska

02:14:13.180 --> 02:14:16.819
object is estimated to be between 60 and 190

02:14:16.819 --> 02:14:19.399
meters in diameter. So it's not a very big object.

02:14:19.479 --> 02:14:22.380
It's not a kilometer scale object. It's big,

02:14:23.079 --> 02:14:25.039
but it's not that big. It doesn't even hit the

02:14:25.039 --> 02:14:28.640
earth. It's an airburst. It explodes in the sky.

02:14:29.759 --> 02:14:33.479
Above, fortunately, an uninhabited area of Siberia.

02:14:33.479 --> 02:14:36.739
But the devastation is huge. It wasn't even noticed

02:14:36.739 --> 02:14:39.159
for some years afterwards until scientific teams

02:14:39.159 --> 02:14:41.260
went in and studied the area and discovered that

02:14:41.260 --> 02:14:43.899
80 million trees across 2 ,000 square kilometers

02:14:43.899 --> 02:14:46.960
had been completely flattened. by that airburst.

02:14:47.319 --> 02:14:50.079
And to put that in context, 2 ,000 square kilometers

02:14:50.079 --> 02:14:53.939
is the size of London. So anybody who knows London

02:14:53.939 --> 02:14:55.859
is aware that there's a ring road around London

02:14:55.859 --> 02:14:58.720
called the M25. If that airburst had taken place

02:14:58.720 --> 02:15:00.899
over central London, everything of London out

02:15:00.899 --> 02:15:03.840
as far as the M25 would have been gone completely.

02:15:04.180 --> 02:15:07.000
Is that what it looks like today? Pretty close.

02:15:07.600 --> 02:15:09.100
It says like 100 years later there's still no

02:15:09.100 --> 02:15:13.579
trees. And if you look above there, you're looking

02:15:13.579 --> 02:15:15.319
at the black and whites that were taken in the

02:15:15.319 --> 02:15:19.119
early 1900s, which revealed the extent of this

02:15:19.119 --> 02:15:22.760
damage. So it's just stupid of us not to pay

02:15:22.760 --> 02:15:24.539
a bit more attention to this, especially when

02:15:24.539 --> 02:15:27.079
we have the tech to actually do something about

02:15:27.079 --> 02:15:30.460
it. We have that nature, though, when it comes

02:15:30.460 --> 02:15:32.819
to climate change. There's a curious denial.

02:15:33.279 --> 02:15:36.600
There's a denial of the role of cataclysms in

02:15:36.600 --> 02:15:39.479
the human story. And there is even a word for

02:15:39.479 --> 02:15:42.739
that. in science and it's called uniformitarianism

02:15:42.739 --> 02:15:45.220
and this is a particular philosophy of science

02:15:45.220 --> 02:15:48.399
where the view is that Everything as we see it

02:15:48.399 --> 02:15:50.640
in the world today is how things have always

02:15:50.640 --> 02:15:53.819
been. So if we don't see cataclysms today and

02:15:53.819 --> 02:15:55.899
they're not playing a major part in our story

02:15:55.899 --> 02:15:58.539
today, then there weren't cataclysms and they

02:15:58.539 --> 02:16:01.119
didn't play a major part in our story in the

02:16:01.119 --> 02:16:03.479
past. That's why, although it's before the time

02:16:03.479 --> 02:16:06.699
of human beings, when the evidence that the dinosaurs

02:16:06.699 --> 02:16:10.640
were made extinct by a comet or an asteroid first

02:16:10.640 --> 02:16:13.949
came out. Lewis and Walter Alvarez the father

02:16:13.949 --> 02:16:16.670
-son team who were behind that science were ridiculed

02:16:16.670 --> 02:16:18.770
by their colleagues and they were told it's absolutely

02:16:18.770 --> 02:16:22.750
absurd of course no cosmic event could have made

02:16:22.750 --> 02:16:25.090
the dinosaurs extinct they spent 10 years taking

02:16:25.090 --> 02:16:27.510
that ridicule until they found the crater in

02:16:27.510 --> 02:16:30.369
the Gulf of Mexico since then the whole scientific

02:16:30.369 --> 02:16:33.709
community has accepted that the course of life

02:16:33.709 --> 02:16:38.049
on this planet was radically changed by a cosmic

02:16:38.049 --> 02:16:41.129
impact and you know I like to joke about it but

02:16:41.229 --> 02:16:43.649
It was a cosmic impact that was big enough literally

02:16:43.649 --> 02:16:47.329
to turn dinosaurs into chickens because that's

02:16:47.329 --> 02:16:49.909
what's left of the dinosaur line is, you know,

02:16:49.909 --> 02:16:54.450
the birds. And at the same time, skulking in

02:16:54.450 --> 02:16:57.149
those primeval forests is this little mammal.

02:16:57.290 --> 02:17:00.989
And it looks a bit like a shrew 65 million years

02:17:00.989 --> 02:17:04.860
ago going nowhere. The dinosaurs rule the earth.

02:17:05.059 --> 02:17:07.459
Then the cosmos intervenes. The dinosaurs are

02:17:07.459 --> 02:17:09.459
swept out of the way. And what happens? The mammals

02:17:09.459 --> 02:17:12.000
start to evolve very rapidly and they start to

02:17:12.000 --> 02:17:14.500
occupy niches that were previously closed to

02:17:14.500 --> 02:17:17.100
them. And the bottom line is we would not be

02:17:17.100 --> 02:17:18.979
here. The human species would not be here. We

02:17:18.979 --> 02:17:21.059
would not be having this conversation if the

02:17:21.059 --> 02:17:23.620
dinosaurs had not been made extinct 65 million

02:17:23.620 --> 02:17:26.959
years ago. So these are world -changing events,

02:17:27.120 --> 02:17:28.879
and my argument is that such a world -changing

02:17:28.879 --> 02:17:32.299
event occurred between 12 ,800 and 11 ,600 years

02:17:32.299 --> 02:17:34.579
ago, and it's high time we paid more attention

02:17:34.579 --> 02:17:38.239
to it. Is there any evidence that there was other

02:17:38.239 --> 02:17:42.020
species of human beings that existed in the Americas?

02:17:42.079 --> 02:17:47.319
Like we're finding in Russia and there's many

02:17:47.319 --> 02:17:49.440
of them that are being discovered all over the

02:17:49.440 --> 02:17:52.299
world now, these subspecies of human beings.

02:17:52.600 --> 02:17:57.280
Yeah. This is an issue that I go into in America

02:17:57.280 --> 02:18:01.600
before. And what first drew me into it was Denisova

02:18:01.600 --> 02:18:05.659
Cave in Siberia. I think everybody's heard of

02:18:05.659 --> 02:18:07.700
the Neanderthals. And these days, I think everybody's

02:18:07.700 --> 02:18:09.579
heard of the Denisovans as well. A lot of people

02:18:09.579 --> 02:18:11.780
have. Well, I guess a lot of people haven't.

02:18:11.780 --> 02:18:14.239
But first of all, let's take the Neanderthals.

02:18:14.280 --> 02:18:16.780
For a long time, it was held that the Neanderthals

02:18:16.780 --> 02:18:19.719
were stupid, primitive subhumans, shambling,

02:18:20.000 --> 02:18:22.559
lacking symbolism. Turns out that that's not

02:18:22.559 --> 02:18:25.379
true at all. The latest scientific evidence on

02:18:25.379 --> 02:18:27.399
the Neanderthals is that they were symbolic creatures,

02:18:27.600 --> 02:18:29.620
that they did do art, that they were in every

02:18:29.620 --> 02:18:32.079
sense human. And they were in every sense human

02:18:32.079 --> 02:18:35.079
because anatomically modern. humans interbred

02:18:35.079 --> 02:18:37.020
with Neanderthals. You can't interbreed with

02:18:37.020 --> 02:18:40.799
another species. They clearly were human beings,

02:18:40.979 --> 02:18:42.799
but they looked rather different from us. And

02:18:42.799 --> 02:18:45.420
that's why certain populations in the world today

02:18:45.420 --> 02:18:48.979
still have three to five percent of Neanderthal

02:18:48.979 --> 02:18:54.299
DNA. Then in Russia, in Denisova Cave, they find

02:18:54.299 --> 02:18:57.540
a single pinky bone from a little finger. And

02:18:57.540 --> 02:19:00.520
they do. the dna testing on it they're able to

02:19:00.520 --> 02:19:03.600
get a complete genome from it and what they discover

02:19:03.600 --> 02:19:07.059
is this isn't a neanderthal this isn't an anatomically

02:19:07.059 --> 02:19:09.420
modern human being this is another human species

02:19:09.420 --> 02:19:13.100
who they named the denisovans they think they're

02:19:13.100 --> 02:19:15.239
more closely related to neanderthals than they

02:19:15.239 --> 02:19:17.479
are to anatomically modern humans but they're

02:19:17.479 --> 02:19:21.760
clearly another human species and they also interbred

02:19:21.760 --> 02:19:24.100
with anatomically modern humans. And Denisovan

02:19:24.100 --> 02:19:27.200
DNA survives, interestingly enough, it survives

02:19:27.200 --> 02:19:31.639
predominantly in Australasia, in Papua New Guinea

02:19:31.639 --> 02:19:35.479
and amongst Australian Aborigines. So as part

02:19:35.479 --> 02:19:38.899
of the research for this book, I went to Denisovan

02:19:38.899 --> 02:19:42.159
Cave. I had an amazing, actually just incredible

02:19:42.159 --> 02:19:45.479
trip to Russia. I hadn't expected it to be like

02:19:45.479 --> 02:19:48.540
that at all. Siberia. I mean, America is vast,

02:19:48.799 --> 02:19:52.459
but my God, crossing Siberia, this is endless

02:19:52.459 --> 02:19:55.680
rolling plains, you know, this just vast area.

02:19:55.860 --> 02:19:59.959
How did you cross it? We took a car. You can't

02:19:59.959 --> 02:20:02.040
travel independently in Russia. It's very difficult.

02:20:02.180 --> 02:20:04.280
You have to get you have to get permission and

02:20:04.280 --> 02:20:06.579
you have to state in advance where you're going

02:20:06.579 --> 02:20:09.500
to be stopping off at. So what I found and I

02:20:09.500 --> 02:20:11.739
just did so through the Internet was a was a

02:20:11.739 --> 02:20:15.600
local guy called Sergei. Kurgin, who had a little

02:20:15.600 --> 02:20:21.159
tour business in Siberia, in the city of Novosibirsk.

02:20:21.219 --> 02:20:24.799
I got in touch with him. He found a translator

02:20:24.799 --> 02:20:27.200
who would translate my emails, and I said, we

02:20:27.200 --> 02:20:30.389
want to make this journey to Denisova Cave. And

02:20:30.389 --> 02:20:32.489
can you set this up for us and get all the permissions?

02:20:32.690 --> 02:20:35.209
And he did. And so we flew into Novosibirsk.

02:20:35.709 --> 02:20:38.270
Sergei and his translator, who turned out to

02:20:38.270 --> 02:20:40.850
be a Russian student who spoke good English,

02:20:40.989 --> 02:20:43.909
joined us. And we did this immense journey across

02:20:43.909 --> 02:20:46.229
Siberia. How long did it take? Oh, it took us

02:20:46.229 --> 02:20:49.010
three days to get to Denisova Cave. Three days

02:20:49.010 --> 02:20:51.790
of driving every day. Some stopping off along

02:20:51.790 --> 02:20:54.610
the way. Incredible hospitality of the Russians

02:20:54.610 --> 02:20:57.090
that we were amongst. Very independent people.

02:20:57.450 --> 02:20:59.350
People who are living out there in the wilderness.

02:20:59.399 --> 02:21:02.100
and who actually do know how to survive. It's

02:21:02.100 --> 02:21:04.299
the first time I've ever drunk milk fresh from

02:21:04.299 --> 02:21:06.899
the cow. Literally milked right out of the cow

02:21:06.899 --> 02:21:09.290
and poured down my throat. How was it? It was

02:21:09.290 --> 02:21:11.850
delicious. And the cream, I mean, thick, thick

02:21:11.850 --> 02:21:14.389
cream. So there was a lot of things about Russia

02:21:14.389 --> 02:21:17.250
that surprised me. Denisova Cave is a fascinating,

02:21:17.590 --> 02:21:20.329
beautiful place to visit. It's another example

02:21:20.329 --> 02:21:23.190
of a missing chapter in the human story that

02:21:23.190 --> 02:21:25.090
is beginning to be pieced together. It's obvious

02:21:25.090 --> 02:21:28.090
now that we were not alone, that there were multiple

02:21:28.090 --> 02:21:30.750
other human species who were human enough. to

02:21:30.750 --> 02:21:34.530
interbreed with us and leave DNA. And this Denisovan

02:21:34.530 --> 02:21:36.729
species was only discovered in like, was it 2000

02:21:36.729 --> 02:21:39.850
something? Very recently, the 2000s. It's a very

02:21:39.850 --> 02:21:43.069
recent discovery. Did they leave behind art?

02:21:43.590 --> 02:21:49.030
Better than that. They left behind certain physical

02:21:49.030 --> 02:21:52.190
objects, which are extremely hard to explain.

02:21:52.649 --> 02:21:57.670
One of them is a greenstone bracelet. And that

02:21:57.670 --> 02:22:00.440
bracelet is in the form of a... talk which was

02:22:00.440 --> 02:22:02.579
therefore slipped on sideways onto the hand it's

02:22:02.579 --> 02:22:07.389
not a full ring and A hole has been drilled through

02:22:07.389 --> 02:22:10.229
the bracelet. And from that hole, it's been possible

02:22:10.229 --> 02:22:13.069
to reconstruct that a pendant was hung. Then

02:22:13.069 --> 02:22:15.829
the archaeologists, there it is, then the archaeologists

02:22:15.829 --> 02:22:19.010
started to take a look in detail at the drill

02:22:19.010 --> 02:22:21.930
marks on that hole. And what they discovered

02:22:21.930 --> 02:22:24.629
was a huge anomaly, that that was drilled with

02:22:24.629 --> 02:22:28.010
a stable, fixed drill. And it was drilled at

02:22:28.010 --> 02:22:32.340
extremely high speed. thought to be 40 or 50

02:22:32.340 --> 02:22:35.100
,000 years old. There is not supposed to have

02:22:35.100 --> 02:22:37.579
been any such technology in that period that

02:22:37.579 --> 02:22:39.979
was capable of drilling with a stable fixed drill.

02:22:40.219 --> 02:22:43.959
And yet there it is. And there it appears. So

02:22:43.959 --> 02:22:48.139
there are also incredible, very fine needles,

02:22:48.459 --> 02:22:50.959
bone needles that the Denisovans made, very long

02:22:50.959 --> 02:22:52.520
ones, which suggest that they were stitching

02:22:52.520 --> 02:22:54.620
very heavy stuff together. And the suggestion

02:22:54.620 --> 02:22:57.319
has been, were they making skin boats, for example,

02:22:57.459 --> 02:22:59.860
to use to navigate? That would explain how they

02:22:59.860 --> 02:23:02.110
managed to get. themselves to australia which

02:23:02.110 --> 02:23:04.329
is where the largest amount of denisovan dna

02:23:04.329 --> 02:23:07.969
survives today there's one of those there's one

02:23:07.969 --> 02:23:09.930
of those needles so that there are indications

02:23:09.930 --> 02:23:13.469
of strangely out of place technology amongst

02:23:13.469 --> 02:23:16.329
the denisovans which is 20 30 000 years earlier

02:23:16.329 --> 02:23:18.329
in the human story than it than it should be

02:23:18.329 --> 02:23:20.770
those kind of needles that kind of bracelet you

02:23:20.770 --> 02:23:22.510
could expect to find them in what archaeologists

02:23:22.510 --> 02:23:25.329
call the neolithic but to find it in the paleolithic

02:23:25.329 --> 02:23:28.370
is very puzzling and and very odd and it suggests

02:23:28.370 --> 02:23:32.030
that the denisovans were certainly not shambling

02:23:32.030 --> 02:23:35.170
subhumans. They were refined creatures. Can you

02:23:35.170 --> 02:23:37.270
find out what year they discovered the Denisovans,

02:23:37.270 --> 02:23:39.530
Jamie? Can you Google that real quick? I want

02:23:39.530 --> 02:23:42.829
to say it's in the 2000s. But, I mean, imagine.

02:23:44.159 --> 02:23:45.780
Human beings have been around for this long.

02:23:45.879 --> 02:23:48.719
Here we are in 2019 and within the last decade

02:23:48.719 --> 02:23:51.500
or so, they figured this out. Yeah, we're discovering

02:23:51.500 --> 02:23:53.959
new stuff about ourselves. We're discovering

02:23:53.959 --> 02:23:57.079
that our story is much richer, much more textured,

02:23:57.340 --> 02:24:00.579
much more layered than we thought it was. It's

02:24:00.579 --> 02:24:03.700
not a simple story. It's a very complicated story.

02:24:03.899 --> 02:24:07.889
And we ourselves are. A hybrid species. We are

02:24:07.889 --> 02:24:11.010
the result of interactions with all kinds of

02:24:11.010 --> 02:24:13.229
different looking human beings. And the end result

02:24:13.229 --> 02:24:15.370
is ourselves. So it's not just that we carry

02:24:15.370 --> 02:24:18.709
Neanderthal or Denisovan DNA. In a sense, we

02:24:18.709 --> 02:24:24.590
are Neanderthals and Denisovans. They are part

02:24:24.590 --> 02:24:27.690
of the anatomically modern human heritage. So

02:24:27.690 --> 02:24:30.389
you make a good point. The fact that this is

02:24:30.389 --> 02:24:32.770
only being discovered now and that it's incredibly

02:24:32.770 --> 02:24:36.600
important. It completely rewrites the story of

02:24:36.600 --> 02:24:39.780
our ancestry. The notion… This is the 1970s.

02:24:40.159 --> 02:24:42.899
1970s. Oh, okay. I'm way off. The real work that's

02:24:42.899 --> 02:24:45.219
been done in Denisovan Cave has been done in

02:24:45.219 --> 02:24:49.639
the 2000s, from 2006, 2007 onwards. Genetic examination.

02:24:49.639 --> 02:24:52.079
That's when the major papers have been… 2008,

02:24:52.200 --> 02:24:54.200
there it is. …have been published, which have

02:24:54.200 --> 02:24:57.180
revealed the genome of the Denisovans and revealed

02:24:57.180 --> 02:24:59.979
the Denisovan connection to anatomically modern

02:24:59.979 --> 02:25:02.420
humans. The fact that we're only finding this

02:25:02.420 --> 02:25:04.860
out now that we… That we told the story of our

02:25:04.860 --> 02:25:07.459
past and weren't aware of this raises the question,

02:25:07.500 --> 02:25:09.639
how much else in the story of our past is there

02:25:09.639 --> 02:25:12.100
that we're not aware of? Let's stop being so

02:25:12.100 --> 02:25:14.399
arrogant, so sure of ourselves, so confident

02:25:14.399 --> 02:25:16.780
in our findings. Let's be more tentative. Let's

02:25:16.780 --> 02:25:19.840
keep an open mind and see where it takes us.

02:25:19.899 --> 02:25:22.799
That's the main message that I have from all

02:25:22.799 --> 02:25:27.020
of this. And I think and I hope that this will

02:25:27.020 --> 02:25:30.500
be. effect of this book. I'm not kidding myself

02:25:30.500 --> 02:25:33.959
that the archaeologists are going to jump on

02:25:33.959 --> 02:25:37.379
board overnight, particularly so since I'm very

02:25:37.379 --> 02:25:40.579
critical of American archaeology in this book.

02:25:40.719 --> 02:25:43.479
And I'm critical of it specifically and explicitly

02:25:43.479 --> 02:25:46.819
because of the dominance of the Clovis first

02:25:46.819 --> 02:25:50.239
model for so long, which prevented other research

02:25:50.239 --> 02:25:53.000
taking place. And I have to say, archaeologists

02:25:53.000 --> 02:25:57.260
like to insult me by calling me a pseudoscientist.

02:25:58.159 --> 02:26:01.239
I can't think of anything more pseudoscientific

02:26:01.239 --> 02:26:03.899
than the Clovis First Doctrine, which locked

02:26:03.899 --> 02:26:07.139
American archaeology for 50 years in a particular

02:26:07.139 --> 02:26:09.959
framework, which we now know was totally wrong.

02:26:10.200 --> 02:26:13.540
Nothing good about it at all. A complete mistake.

02:26:14.319 --> 02:26:17.459
What I'm hoping the book will do in the long

02:26:17.459 --> 02:26:20.979
run is that it will lead to more attention being

02:26:20.979 --> 02:26:24.579
focused on the Americas. This is a very neglected

02:26:24.579 --> 02:26:27.879
area of the world as far as deep and ancient

02:26:27.879 --> 02:26:31.379
archaeology goes. The recent history of the Americas

02:26:31.379 --> 02:26:33.860
has been relatively well studied, but the deep

02:26:33.860 --> 02:26:36.559
and ancient history has not been well studied.

02:26:36.799 --> 02:26:41.180
And I think America is going to contain revelations

02:26:41.180 --> 02:26:44.819
for us about our story and about our past. And

02:26:44.819 --> 02:26:49.479
I'm serious when I suggest that America is the

02:26:49.479 --> 02:26:53.940
most plausible. and the most likely home base

02:26:53.940 --> 02:26:56.540
for a lost civilization, if you're going to propose

02:26:56.540 --> 02:27:00.049
a lost civilization. There are certain preconditions.

02:27:00.190 --> 02:27:03.049
You can't have it on a small island. There's

02:27:03.049 --> 02:27:05.430
got to be a large landmass with enormous resources

02:27:05.430 --> 02:27:07.649
and the ability for population to grow and for

02:27:07.649 --> 02:27:11.069
those resources to be mobilized. And what I suddenly

02:27:11.069 --> 02:27:13.389
realized, you asked earlier why I started to

02:27:13.389 --> 02:27:15.629
write this book at all, is what the new evidence

02:27:15.629 --> 02:27:17.829
is pointing to is that the Americas have been

02:27:17.829 --> 02:27:20.450
wrongly neglected, that here we have a giant

02:27:20.450 --> 02:27:24.049
continental landmass. extraordinary resources

02:27:24.049 --> 02:27:26.909
that has just been ruled out of the story of

02:27:26.909 --> 02:27:28.889
human civilization. But once we take account

02:27:28.889 --> 02:27:32.250
of the fact that there was a giant cataclysm

02:27:32.250 --> 02:27:35.989
over North America 12 ,800 years ago, once we

02:27:35.989 --> 02:27:38.909
start looking, as I do in America before, at

02:27:38.909 --> 02:27:41.950
the incredible, deep, in -depth similarities

02:27:41.950 --> 02:27:45.290
between, for example, the religious system. of

02:27:45.290 --> 02:27:47.510
ancient Egypt and the religious system of the

02:27:47.510 --> 02:27:50.069
Mississippi Valley, then you realize that you're

02:27:50.069 --> 02:27:53.069
into a global mystery here and that the answer

02:27:53.069 --> 02:27:55.430
to that mystery may not at all be in the old

02:27:55.430 --> 02:27:59.690
world and may very much be in the Americas. See,

02:27:59.709 --> 02:28:01.610
it's odd. I mentioned Moundville earlier on.

02:28:02.090 --> 02:28:06.049
It's kind of odd that we should find what is

02:28:06.049 --> 02:28:09.750
essentially the ancient Egyptian religion manifesting

02:28:09.750 --> 02:28:12.909
in the symbolism of Moundville, the ascent to

02:28:12.909 --> 02:28:15.440
Orion. transit to the Milky Way, the journey

02:28:15.440 --> 02:28:17.879
along the Milky Way. These are very specific

02:28:17.879 --> 02:28:21.540
and idiosyncratic ideas. And what makes it doubly

02:28:21.540 --> 02:28:24.420
odd is Moundville isn't that old. Moundville

02:28:24.420 --> 02:28:27.819
as a site is about a thousand years old. Ancient

02:28:27.819 --> 02:28:31.100
Egypt had already been gone completely from the

02:28:31.100 --> 02:28:35.399
world for at least 600 years before Moundville

02:28:35.399 --> 02:28:37.680
was created. The end of ancient Egypt, there's

02:28:37.680 --> 02:28:41.600
Moundville. And what we're looking at in the

02:28:42.040 --> 02:28:43.979
Foreground is mound B, and we're looking at mound

02:28:43.979 --> 02:28:48.379
A in the distance. And a complete circle of mounds.

02:28:49.280 --> 02:28:52.809
What is odd about it is... We find this system

02:28:52.809 --> 02:28:55.430
of ancient Egyptian ideas in Moundville 500 years

02:28:55.430 --> 02:28:57.350
after ancient Egypt has gone from the world.

02:28:57.489 --> 02:29:00.829
The Romans were the end of ancient Egypt. By

02:29:00.829 --> 02:29:04.430
400 AD, ancient Egypt is gone. Moundville doesn't

02:29:04.430 --> 02:29:08.549
even exist then, but 600 years later, it is created

02:29:08.549 --> 02:29:11.950
and it manifests the entire set of ancient Egyptian

02:29:11.950 --> 02:29:14.430
ideas. Clearly, it did not get that as a result

02:29:14.430 --> 02:29:16.469
of direct transmission from ancient Egypt unless

02:29:16.469 --> 02:29:18.920
they were time travelers. The only way I think

02:29:18.920 --> 02:29:21.100
it could have got it is as a result of a legacy

02:29:21.100 --> 02:29:23.299
passed down from a much earlier civilization

02:29:23.299 --> 02:29:26.659
that had been influenced and affected many different

02:29:26.659 --> 02:29:29.100
parts of the world. And the characteristics of

02:29:29.100 --> 02:29:31.899
that civilization, the shamanistic heart of it,

02:29:32.000 --> 02:29:34.579
the use of altered states of consciousness, the

02:29:34.579 --> 02:29:37.190
focus on those. are amongst the reasons that

02:29:37.190 --> 02:29:39.270
I would suggest that America is the place that

02:29:39.270 --> 02:29:42.129
we should be looking. And the big mysteries are

02:29:42.129 --> 02:29:44.870
in the areas that were so devastated at the end

02:29:44.870 --> 02:29:46.889
of the last ice age, up in the north of North

02:29:46.889 --> 02:29:49.510
America, the channeled scab lands in particular,

02:29:49.729 --> 02:29:52.489
and then the Mississippi Valley, the whole story

02:29:52.489 --> 02:29:54.409
of the Mississippi Valley. Yes, Moundville is

02:29:54.409 --> 02:29:57.350
1 ,000 years old, but then you can go back to

02:29:57.350 --> 02:30:01.670
Poverty Point in Louisiana, which is 2 ,700 years

02:30:01.670 --> 02:30:04.649
old. You can go to Watson Break in Louisiana,

02:30:04.850 --> 02:30:07.760
which is... 5 ,500 years old. You can go to sites

02:30:07.760 --> 02:30:10.600
like Conley, which are 8 ,000 years old. The

02:30:10.600 --> 02:30:14.020
system keeps on going back and disappearing back

02:30:14.020 --> 02:30:17.079
into time. And I think the most fruitful new

02:30:17.079 --> 02:30:19.260
work on exploring the origins of civilization

02:30:19.260 --> 02:30:23.360
is going to occur counterintuitively in the Americas,

02:30:23.440 --> 02:30:25.920
the very last place on Earth that archaeologists

02:30:25.920 --> 02:30:28.500
have ever thought to look. What do mainstream

02:30:28.500 --> 02:30:32.709
archaeologists, what do they think? cause those

02:30:32.709 --> 02:30:35.450
drill marks in the Denisovan bracelets? It's

02:30:35.450 --> 02:30:38.930
not really explained it. The Russian archaeologists

02:30:38.930 --> 02:30:42.229
who published the report on that are themselves

02:30:42.229 --> 02:30:45.430
mystified by it, and they realize that it's dynamite.

02:30:45.489 --> 02:30:49.010
It's an explosive discovery. It's an out -of

02:30:49.010 --> 02:30:51.649
-place technology. And so they're trying to explain

02:30:51.649 --> 02:30:55.110
how come fixed stable drilling, which we thought

02:30:55.110 --> 02:30:58.770
was introduced first in the Neolithic, maybe

02:30:58.770 --> 02:31:01.909
7 ,000, 8 ,000 years ago. How come that is now

02:31:01.909 --> 02:31:04.190
found in a site that's 40 ,000 or 50 ,000 years

02:31:04.190 --> 02:31:06.350
old? That's how old those bracelets are? Oh,

02:31:06.370 --> 02:31:08.670
yeah, absolutely. Those bracelets are 40 ,000

02:31:08.670 --> 02:31:10.610
years old? They may have been older. There's

02:31:10.610 --> 02:31:13.250
recent research suggesting that they may go back

02:31:13.250 --> 02:31:16.549
65 ,000 to 70 ,000 years. Oh, my God. They're

02:31:16.549 --> 02:31:19.309
extremely ancient, and therefore they're incorporating

02:31:19.309 --> 02:31:22.309
an out -of -place technology, which doesn't fit

02:31:22.309 --> 02:31:24.110
with the timeline of history that we've been…

02:31:25.709 --> 02:31:27.709
Very, very out of place. Very, very, very odd

02:31:27.709 --> 02:31:30.850
feature that we have here. So what this says

02:31:30.850 --> 02:31:35.340
to me is that we as a species, and I've... I

02:31:35.340 --> 02:31:37.719
guess this is kind of my pet phrase. We are a

02:31:37.719 --> 02:31:39.559
species with amnesia. It's my favorite phrase

02:31:39.559 --> 02:31:42.719
of yours. We have forgotten so much more about

02:31:42.719 --> 02:31:45.760
ourselves than we remember. And what the process

02:31:45.760 --> 02:31:48.079
of history and archaeology should really be about

02:31:48.079 --> 02:31:51.100
is a process of remembering. We shouldn't be

02:31:51.100 --> 02:31:54.239
imposing our ideas of what we should have been

02:31:54.239 --> 02:31:57.639
on the past. We should allow the past to speak

02:31:57.639 --> 02:32:01.879
for itself. And when it does so, it speaks eloquently.

02:32:03.229 --> 02:32:06.809
One of the sites that we visited and explored

02:32:06.809 --> 02:32:11.629
for America before was Serpent Mound in Ohio.

02:32:12.629 --> 02:32:13.909
I don't know if you've ever been there, Jamie.

02:32:13.989 --> 02:32:16.430
No, I've heard of it, though. It is an amazing…

02:32:16.430 --> 02:32:18.719
Jamie's from Ohio. You ever be there? Yeah, Jamie

02:32:18.719 --> 02:32:20.180
and I were talking about it earlier. There's

02:32:20.180 --> 02:32:23.840
Serpent Mound. There's an aerial view of Serpent

02:32:23.840 --> 02:32:28.139
Mound. Oh, that is crazy. But here's the thing.

02:32:28.200 --> 02:32:30.860
That's beautiful. You see the head end of Serpent

02:32:30.860 --> 02:32:33.120
Mound there? So, Santa and I went there at the

02:32:33.120 --> 02:32:37.500
summer solstice in 2017. We were there on June

02:32:37.500 --> 02:32:41.260
21st, 2017. And my wife, Santa, is a photographer,

02:32:41.399 --> 02:32:44.420
and we acquired a drone for this specific purpose.

02:32:44.600 --> 02:32:47.579
And she flew the drone up 400 feet above Serpent

02:32:47.579 --> 02:32:50.239
Mound. And we sat it up there watching the sun

02:32:50.239 --> 02:32:53.399
set. And what happens on the summer solstice,

02:32:53.420 --> 02:32:55.600
and you can only see it perfectly with a drone.

02:32:55.639 --> 02:32:58.299
There's pictures of it in the book here. What

02:32:58.299 --> 02:33:01.059
happens on the summer solstice, you can see it

02:33:01.059 --> 02:33:03.159
from ground level, but you get up 400 feet, you

02:33:03.159 --> 02:33:05.920
really get it. The head of that serpent is pointing

02:33:05.920 --> 02:33:09.440
directly at a niche in the distant hills through

02:33:09.440 --> 02:33:12.940
which the sun sets on the summer solstice, on

02:33:12.940 --> 02:33:15.879
the longest day of the year. So it's a sky -ground

02:33:15.879 --> 02:33:19.850
alignment. perfection that is taking place there.

02:33:19.930 --> 02:33:22.909
It's a beautiful thing to see, to watch that

02:33:22.909 --> 02:33:26.110
sun majestically sinking down into the horizon

02:33:26.110 --> 02:33:29.040
and see this. awesome figure of the serpent gazing

02:33:29.040 --> 02:33:31.760
directly at it with its jaws open, almost as

02:33:31.760 --> 02:33:35.399
though it's about to swallow the sun. And then

02:33:35.399 --> 02:33:38.899
we remember that there are other sites around

02:33:38.899 --> 02:33:41.760
the world which are also aligned to key moments

02:33:41.760 --> 02:33:45.299
of the solar year, aligned to the winter solstice,

02:33:45.319 --> 02:33:47.760
for example, the Temple of Karnak in Upper Egypt.

02:33:47.780 --> 02:33:51.239
That kilometer -long axis targets exactly the

02:33:51.239 --> 02:33:54.860
rising point of the sun on the winter solstice.

02:33:55.790 --> 02:33:57.850
One of the interesting things about Serpent Mound,

02:33:57.989 --> 02:34:01.530
and I urge anybody listening to this, go visit

02:34:01.530 --> 02:34:03.850
Serpent Mound and especially go there on the

02:34:03.850 --> 02:34:05.670
summer solstice because that's the moment, that's

02:34:05.670 --> 02:34:07.629
the marriage of heaven and earth. That's when

02:34:07.629 --> 02:34:12.950
sky and ground unite in majesty at that place.

02:34:13.709 --> 02:34:17.770
But one of the mysteries of Serpent Mound concerns

02:34:17.770 --> 02:34:22.040
how old is this mound really? How far back does

02:34:22.040 --> 02:34:26.180
it go? And there have been arguments that there

02:34:26.180 --> 02:34:27.860
is a group of archaeologists who would like it

02:34:27.860 --> 02:34:29.979
to be just a thousand years old and they attribute

02:34:29.979 --> 02:34:32.180
it to a culture called the Fort Ancient culture.

02:34:32.399 --> 02:34:34.680
There's another group of archaeologists, in my

02:34:34.680 --> 02:34:37.219
view, who've done much more thorough work who

02:34:37.219 --> 02:34:40.659
attribute it to the Adena culture. The thing

02:34:40.659 --> 02:34:43.540
about which goes back to 2 ,300 years ago or

02:34:43.540 --> 02:34:45.540
so, there's evidence for an earlier construction

02:34:45.540 --> 02:34:48.559
enterprise. It looks like the site has been continuously

02:34:48.559 --> 02:34:52.540
reconstructed and remodeled as we would do with

02:34:52.540 --> 02:34:54.579
any sacred site. If it begins to wear down, you

02:34:54.579 --> 02:34:57.819
remodel it. And then you get later organic material

02:34:57.819 --> 02:34:59.639
being introduced to the site that may give you

02:34:59.639 --> 02:35:01.979
the impression that the site is only that old.

02:35:02.420 --> 02:35:05.020
What's intriguing about Serpent Mound is it stands

02:35:05.020 --> 02:35:08.579
on a natural ridge. And that natural ridge, and

02:35:08.579 --> 02:35:11.840
this is entirely an accident of heaven and earth,

02:35:12.000 --> 02:35:14.540
that natural ridge, the head end of it, if you

02:35:14.540 --> 02:35:17.639
like, is naturally oriented to the summer solstice

02:35:17.639 --> 02:35:22.840
sunset. Somebody a long time ago noticed that

02:35:22.840 --> 02:35:25.959
natural orientation and they decided to monumentalize

02:35:25.959 --> 02:35:29.500
it. Here was a place where earth whispered to

02:35:29.500 --> 02:35:33.219
sky, the earth in her own nature. looked directly

02:35:33.219 --> 02:35:36.239
at the place on the horizon where the sun was

02:35:36.239 --> 02:35:38.819
setting. This was a highly significant place.

02:35:38.860 --> 02:35:41.959
This place mattered. So they then created Serpent

02:35:41.959 --> 02:35:45.059
Mound on top of it. They memorialized it. They

02:35:45.059 --> 02:35:48.739
turned it into a special, special place that

02:35:48.739 --> 02:35:51.540
human beings had had a hand in making to honor

02:35:51.540 --> 02:35:54.500
the marriage of heaven and earth. And what I

02:35:54.500 --> 02:35:57.319
found researching this book is that Serpent Mound

02:35:57.319 --> 02:36:00.219
is not alone in that respect. A lot of people

02:36:00.219 --> 02:36:04.959
are puzzled by Stonehenge in England. Stonehenge

02:36:04.959 --> 02:36:08.159
is built on Salisbury Plain, and there are two

02:36:08.159 --> 02:36:11.399
kinds of big megaliths at Stonehenge. One of

02:36:11.399 --> 02:36:14.340
them are called sarsens, and the other are called

02:36:14.340 --> 02:36:16.940
the bluestones. The bluestones, we know for sure,

02:36:17.139 --> 02:36:18.819
were brought a long way. They were brought from

02:36:18.819 --> 02:36:20.920
Wales to Stonehenge, a distance of about 150

02:36:20.920 --> 02:36:26.020
miles. The sarsens are found in abundance. on

02:36:26.020 --> 02:36:28.219
a place called the Marlborough Downs, which is

02:36:28.219 --> 02:36:31.280
about 20 miles from Stonehenge. But until very

02:36:31.280 --> 02:36:33.399
recently, it was thought there were no sarsens

02:36:33.399 --> 02:36:35.979
on Salisbury Plain at all. And archaeologists

02:36:35.979 --> 02:36:39.760
couldn't understand why Stonehenge wasn't built

02:36:39.760 --> 02:36:42.479
on the Marlborough Downs, where the big sarsen

02:36:42.479 --> 02:36:44.719
stones, the 20, the 30 -ton megaliths, were available

02:36:44.719 --> 02:36:46.739
locally and didn't have to be brought there.

02:36:47.139 --> 02:36:50.280
Very recent research, 2018 research, has provided

02:36:50.280 --> 02:36:53.120
the answer that two of those sarsens were naturally

02:36:53.120 --> 02:36:56.489
in position all the time. at Stonehenge and they

02:36:56.489 --> 02:37:00.049
are Sarsenstone 16 and the Heelstone. And if

02:37:00.049 --> 02:37:02.930
you stand behind Sarsenstone 16 and look at the

02:37:02.930 --> 02:37:05.670
Heelstone at dawn on the summer solstice, you

02:37:05.670 --> 02:37:08.430
see the sun rising in direct alignment with the

02:37:08.430 --> 02:37:11.030
view. And the Heelstone is like the sight on

02:37:11.030 --> 02:37:13.850
the barrel of a rifle targeting the sun. And

02:37:13.850 --> 02:37:16.649
that was there naturally. Earth was speaking

02:37:16.649 --> 02:37:19.850
to sky. The ancients saw that. They decided this

02:37:19.850 --> 02:37:23.520
was sacred. They went to huge... to bring the

02:37:23.520 --> 02:37:25.700
Sarsens, the rest of the Sarsens, from the Marlborough

02:37:25.700 --> 02:37:28.040
Downs to create the big stone circle at Stonehenge

02:37:28.040 --> 02:37:30.299
and then to put the blue stones inside it. But

02:37:30.299 --> 02:37:33.559
initially, what they were celebrating was a natural

02:37:33.559 --> 02:37:36.620
union of heaven and earth. And that brings us

02:37:36.620 --> 02:37:40.030
to the notion of as above, so below. that we

02:37:40.030 --> 02:37:42.809
are connected to the cosmos, that it is part

02:37:42.809 --> 02:37:45.569
of our heritage. We in modern cities forget the

02:37:45.569 --> 02:37:48.309
cosmos exists. We have all kinds of tech that

02:37:48.309 --> 02:37:51.590
can look at astronomy, astronomy programs. We

02:37:51.590 --> 02:37:53.250
can all do that, but actually looking at the

02:37:53.250 --> 02:37:55.290
stars is something that's very difficult for

02:37:55.290 --> 02:37:58.670
people who live in cities to do. We're cut off

02:37:58.670 --> 02:38:00.389
from the cosmos. We're cut off from the notion

02:38:00.389 --> 02:38:03.190
that it is sacred, that it matters to the human

02:38:03.190 --> 02:38:05.469
creature. And what the ancients seem to have

02:38:05.469 --> 02:38:07.850
done is to realize how vital that connection

02:38:07.850 --> 02:38:11.680
is. to memorialize it and to celebrate it and

02:38:11.680 --> 02:38:15.180
to draw our attention to the intimate connection

02:38:15.180 --> 02:38:17.879
between ground and sky. Yeah, light pollution

02:38:17.879 --> 02:38:21.100
sort of fuels our infantile existence in a lot

02:38:21.100 --> 02:38:22.620
of ways, right? Because it doesn't constantly

02:38:22.620 --> 02:38:24.780
remind us that we're a part of this great thing.

02:38:25.149 --> 02:38:29.370
Yeah, light pollution is a huge factor. It's

02:38:29.370 --> 02:38:31.569
very easy to forget that we live in a universe.

02:38:31.770 --> 02:38:34.309
Very easy to forget that. Very easy to believe

02:38:34.309 --> 02:38:36.290
that it's just about these cities that we live

02:38:36.290 --> 02:38:39.770
in and the intimate concerns of our daily lives.

02:38:39.889 --> 02:38:42.290
But in fact, we're part of something much, much

02:38:42.290 --> 02:38:46.670
bigger. And my God, I mean, it's a mystery enough.

02:38:47.629 --> 02:38:52.450
to be born a human being at all. Just to be alive

02:38:52.450 --> 02:38:57.850
is an extraordinary mystery. To have the ability

02:38:57.850 --> 02:39:04.690
to love, to feel emotions, to understand beauty,

02:39:04.870 --> 02:39:09.010
to be moved by a symphony. All of these things

02:39:09.010 --> 02:39:12.030
we take for granted, but actually they're deeply

02:39:12.030 --> 02:39:15.889
mysterious. We don't really know. What we are

02:39:15.889 --> 02:39:19.530
or or who we are and which is one of the reasons

02:39:19.530 --> 02:39:24.270
I'm so fascinated by Rick Strassman's You presented

02:39:24.270 --> 02:39:27.370
his film, DMT, The Spirit Molecule. And on my

02:39:27.370 --> 02:39:29.690
upcoming speaking tour, I'm going to be doing

02:39:29.690 --> 02:39:33.110
an event with Rick on the 14th or 15th of May

02:39:33.110 --> 02:39:35.809
in Sedona. I think it'll be the first time that

02:39:35.809 --> 02:39:38.690
Rick has spoken publicly for quite a while. Rick

02:39:38.690 --> 02:39:41.969
has a colleague called Andrew Gallimore who teaches

02:39:41.969 --> 02:39:45.350
at the University of Okinawa in Japan. And Rick

02:39:45.350 --> 02:39:48.229
and Andrew have together developed a technology.

02:39:49.159 --> 02:39:52.840
for releasing DMT into human volunteers in a

02:39:52.840 --> 02:39:55.600
very slow drip that will keep them in the DMT

02:39:55.600 --> 02:40:00.920
state, if they wish, for hours on end. And the

02:40:00.920 --> 02:40:05.719
intention is to use this technology to explore

02:40:05.719 --> 02:40:10.530
and map the DMT realm. When do I sign up? As

02:40:10.530 --> 02:40:12.250
soon as possible. Where do I go? It's very close.

02:40:12.350 --> 02:40:14.690
Imperial College, it looks like Imperial College

02:40:14.690 --> 02:40:17.889
London is going to deploy this technology in

02:40:17.889 --> 02:40:21.350
further research into DMT and that that research

02:40:21.350 --> 02:40:23.989
is not going to be... Purely and simply into

02:40:23.989 --> 02:40:27.370
the therapeutic potential of a psychedelic, which

02:40:27.370 --> 02:40:29.450
is very important research to do, it's going

02:40:29.450 --> 02:40:31.770
to be an investigation into the nature of reality

02:40:31.770 --> 02:40:34.750
using a psychedelic, the mysterious nature of

02:40:34.750 --> 02:40:37.350
reality. And it is odd, and you know this from

02:40:37.350 --> 02:40:39.469
personal experience, that when you get plunged

02:40:39.469 --> 02:40:43.049
into that DMT realm, it is so different from

02:40:43.049 --> 02:40:46.069
the realm of our daily world, filled with geometry,

02:40:46.329 --> 02:40:49.190
filled with these sprightly intelligences, completely

02:40:49.190 --> 02:40:54.379
internally. How can that be generated by the

02:40:54.379 --> 02:40:56.920
brain? Or are we dealing with some other level

02:40:56.920 --> 02:40:59.069
of reality that we haven't encountered yet? I

02:40:59.069 --> 02:41:01.809
think that ancient cultures and in particular

02:41:01.809 --> 02:41:05.690
my lost civilization were deeply involved in

02:41:05.690 --> 02:41:08.590
exploring the mysterious nature of reality and

02:41:08.590 --> 02:41:11.930
used the plant medicines as part of that process.

02:41:12.250 --> 02:41:14.469
When it comes to the serpent mound where the

02:41:14.469 --> 02:41:16.350
head points in the summer solstice, does that

02:41:16.350 --> 02:41:18.549
take into account the procession of the equinoxes

02:41:18.549 --> 02:41:20.190
in terms of like trying to… The position of the

02:41:20.190 --> 02:41:22.809
summer solstice sun on the horizon is not affected

02:41:22.809 --> 02:41:25.649
by the procession. However, it is affected by

02:41:25.649 --> 02:41:28.959
another factor which is a slight… nod on the

02:41:28.959 --> 02:41:31.979
axis of the earth. A nod but not a wobble? Not

02:41:31.979 --> 02:41:35.680
a wobble. What is the nod? A nod and it's called

02:41:35.680 --> 02:41:39.440
nutation and the axis of the earth nods back

02:41:39.440 --> 02:41:42.079
and forward over a cycle of about 41 ,000 years

02:41:42.079 --> 02:41:46.459
and that can that does adjust the position of

02:41:46.459 --> 02:41:50.079
sunrise on the horizon over a very long period

02:41:50.079 --> 02:41:53.440
of time. And it would, in theory, if this idea

02:41:53.440 --> 02:41:56.180
can be taken seriously enough, it would, in theory,

02:41:56.200 --> 02:41:58.520
be possible to use very precise observations

02:41:58.520 --> 02:42:01.340
using the latest modern tech, not simply being

02:42:01.340 --> 02:42:03.760
up there in a drone and seeing the general connection

02:42:03.760 --> 02:42:06.200
between the position of the sun on the horizon

02:42:06.200 --> 02:42:08.180
and the head of serpent man. It would be possible

02:42:08.180 --> 02:42:11.739
to refine that and actually say astronomically

02:42:11.739 --> 02:42:13.860
the precise date on which... which serpent mound

02:42:13.860 --> 02:42:16.280
must have been first created to precisely target

02:42:16.280 --> 02:42:20.120
the rising sun on the equinox. Wow. And on that

02:42:20.120 --> 02:42:22.959
note, we just did three hours. Did we? Flew by.

02:42:23.239 --> 02:42:25.840
I would ask your listeners and viewers, while

02:42:25.840 --> 02:42:28.559
we're talking about Ohio, don't forget about

02:42:28.559 --> 02:42:31.280
Newark and High Bank. What are those? These are

02:42:31.280 --> 02:42:34.899
two incredible, amazing, absolutely stunning,

02:42:35.100 --> 02:42:38.819
gorgeous geometrical sites. It's sad, but one

02:42:38.819 --> 02:42:41.100
of them is preserved within a private golf course.

02:42:41.530 --> 02:42:44.950
Oh, no. However, it's not so sad because if it

02:42:44.950 --> 02:42:47.049
hadn't been preserved within a private golf course,

02:42:47.170 --> 02:42:50.350
it would be gone completely. More than 90 % of

02:42:50.350 --> 02:42:52.170
the Native American earthworks that were documented

02:42:52.170 --> 02:42:54.889
in the 19th century are gone now. They've been

02:42:54.889 --> 02:42:56.629
plowed under for agriculture. That's another

02:42:56.629 --> 02:43:00.030
part of our missing story. There we're looking

02:43:00.030 --> 02:43:02.530
at Newark. See that octagon and circle combination?

02:43:02.889 --> 02:43:05.870
That's repeated at another site called High Bank,

02:43:05.969 --> 02:43:09.350
which is 60 miles away. Go back to that, Jamie.

02:43:09.469 --> 02:43:12.139
Give me a larger. image of that so you see an

02:43:12.139 --> 02:43:14.659
overlay or is that what it actually that's what

02:43:14.659 --> 02:43:16.319
it actually looks like that's i mean that's a

02:43:16.319 --> 02:43:19.260
graphic based on it well the octagon circle combination

02:43:19.260 --> 02:43:21.379
in the top left of the image are best preserved

02:43:21.379 --> 02:43:23.840
the other bits are not so well preserved and

02:43:23.840 --> 02:43:25.799
the reason the octagon circle are best preserved

02:43:25.799 --> 02:43:28.100
is because they're in a private golf club where

02:43:28.100 --> 02:43:30.799
otherwise they would have been plowed under the

02:43:30.799 --> 02:43:32.840
interesting thing is that that octagon circle

02:43:32.840 --> 02:43:36.239
combination is 60 miles from high bank But there's

02:43:36.239 --> 02:43:38.559
another octagon circle combination there and

02:43:38.559 --> 02:43:41.139
it is oriented at precisely 90 degrees to that

02:43:41.139 --> 02:43:43.979
one. That speaks of high science in the Mississippi

02:43:43.979 --> 02:43:47.739
Valley a very, very, very long time ago. There's

02:43:47.739 --> 02:43:50.280
so much to explore and so much to investigate

02:43:50.280 --> 02:43:53.399
and so much to inquire into in America. It's

02:43:53.399 --> 02:43:55.700
just an incredible land and its mysteries have

02:43:55.700 --> 02:43:58.579
been hidden from us. And I'm hoping with this

02:43:58.579 --> 02:44:02.379
book that I have managed to pull. the veil back

02:44:02.379 --> 02:44:04.500
a little bit on those mysteries. And if we're

02:44:04.500 --> 02:44:05.959
really coming to the end of our, is it really

02:44:05.959 --> 02:44:09.799
three hours? My God. If we're really coming to

02:44:09.799 --> 02:44:11.760
the end of our three hours, can I repeat, I would

02:44:11.760 --> 02:44:14.399
love to see readers of my books at my events.

02:44:14.579 --> 02:44:16.739
I'm doing three events in Canada, Vancouver,

02:44:17.159 --> 02:44:20.649
Montreal. and Toronto. And I'm doing something

02:44:20.649 --> 02:44:23.969
like 17 or 18 events in the United States. I'm

02:44:23.969 --> 02:44:26.770
just speaking continuously right the way across

02:44:26.770 --> 02:44:28.889
the US. I wish I could visit every state in the

02:44:28.889 --> 02:44:31.610
US, but my goodness, this is an enormous country.

02:44:31.950 --> 02:44:34.389
Every state in the US is as big as the entire

02:44:34.389 --> 02:44:37.229
British Isles, you know. But I'm visiting as

02:44:37.229 --> 02:44:39.209
many as I am. I'm going to be giving illustrated

02:44:39.209 --> 02:44:41.450
presentations. I'll be signing books afterwards.

02:44:41.610 --> 02:44:43.629
I'll be taking pictures. I would like to meet

02:44:43.629 --> 02:44:46.879
my readers. Please check out my website, grahamhancock

02:44:46.879 --> 02:44:48.899
.com. Look at the talks and events page and you'll

02:44:48.899 --> 02:44:50.959
see where all these events are occurring over

02:44:50.959 --> 02:44:53.420
the next seven weeks. We're on the 22nd of April

02:44:53.420 --> 02:44:55.899
today. I will not leave North America until the

02:44:55.899 --> 02:44:58.430
5th of June. Well, I hope I see you again then.

02:44:58.790 --> 02:45:00.969
Indeed. Listen, thank you so much. You're a treasure.

02:45:01.110 --> 02:45:03.629
And this book, I can't wait to get into it, America

02:45:03.629 --> 02:45:06.030
Before, and the audio book is available now as

02:45:06.030 --> 02:45:07.649
well. Yeah, the audio book's available. I read

02:45:07.649 --> 02:45:10.170
it. Thank you so much, Graham. It's always a

02:45:10.170 --> 02:45:11.809
pleasure having you here. I really, really appreciate

02:45:11.809 --> 02:45:14.209
you. Thanks for having me back on, Joe. Graham

02:45:14.209 --> 02:45:15.709
Hancock, ladies and gentlemen. Bye.