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Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1513. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Neurobiology, Dopamine Regulation, and Human Performance Protocols. Andrew, how are you? What's happening, man? Doing

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great. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Really

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excited to talk to you about this. Just sort

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of for an introduction, tell people what you

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do. So I'm a neuroscientist, meaning I'm a professor

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of neurobiology and ophthalmology, Stanford School

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of Medicine. So I run a laboratory. I teach a

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little bit. I teach neuroanatomy to medical students,

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but mainly my lab does research. So I've got

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students and postdocs. And we're trying to figure

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out the answers to two problems. The first problem

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is how to regenerate the damaged nervous system,

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in particular the connections between the eye

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and the brain, to restore vision to the blind.

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So that's a big mission of ours. And to prevent

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vision loss in people that are losing their vision.

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And the other thing that we're doing is we're

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focusing a lot on stress and other states of

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mind. So I'm obsessed with the idea that all

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our states of mind come from the brain and the

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body. And we're trying to figure out what happens

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in the brain and body. when we're stressed and

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how to control it. What happens in the brain

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and body when we are creative and how to control

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it. And essentially for all states of mind, but

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rather than try and tackle the really high level

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stuff like flow and states of awe, we're really

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focused on these states of stress and things

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like focus and the ability to think clearly and

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do certain things athletically or cognitively

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because first of all, there's a lot of suffering.

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There are a lot of people out there that are

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suffering from an inability to control their

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states of mind. And also there's great potential

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for people who aren't suffering to be able to

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create and perform and do better things once

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we can understand how those states come about.

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That's an interesting way of putting it, suffering

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because they can't control their states of mind.

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That is the case, but that's not like a politically

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correct way of describing it. I guess I never

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thought about that. Would that be accurate? Well,

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I think it's fair to say that all our states

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of mind and body, and I say mind and body because

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the nervous system, which is the brain, the spinal

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cord and all that stuff, it connects to our body

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and our body connects to our brain. So we can't

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really separate those. But states of mind, which

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include the stuff in our skull and the body,

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those essentially dictate our whole life experience,

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right? So whether or not we're feeling calm.

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when we want to be calm, whether or not we're

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feeling stressed, when we'd rather be calm, whether

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or not we are feeling focused when we need to

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do work, or whether or not we're feeling creative

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when we want to be creative. All of that stems

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from the nervous system. The other organs of

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the body are involved, but the nervous system,

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the brain and those connections, it's really

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what it's about. So if you see somebody who's

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in a state of depression, or you see somebody

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who's in a state of flow and creativity, you

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can be pretty sure that that's reflecting the

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activity of neurons in the brain. The idea that

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the body and the brain are inseparable. Most

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people who are physically active accept that

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and appreciate that, and they know that this

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is probably true. But there's a lot of people

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that kind of want to deny that and concentrate

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only on the brain. And particularly, like, there's

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psychiatrists that will prescribe medication

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before they'll prescribe exercise. And this is

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a controversial subject. That's what I meant

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by saying, like, that... you are unable to control

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aspects of your brain or aspects of the way you

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are viewing things or the way you feel about

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things. Yeah. So I think if we take a step back

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and we just kind of think about what the brain

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and nervous system does, and again, nervous system

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includes all of it, we can say the brain is special,

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right? This brain, there is something fundamentally

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important about the brain part because somebody

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who, let's say, has a limb amputated, it doesn't

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fundamentally change who they are. It can change.

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what they can do. And there will be aspects of

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their personality and temperament that might

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shift, but who they are hasn't changed. Whereas

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if someone has a brain lesion where their brain

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is degenerating, that person is fundamentally

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different. So there is something special about

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the real estate in our skulls. But that said,

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the job of the brain is really to combine our

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experience of what's going on in our body with

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what's going on in our mind and to react and

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behave to things in an adaptive way. So if I

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may, there's just sort of like... If we take

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a step back and just think, there are basically

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five things that the nervous system is responsible

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for doing. First is sensation. Sensation is non

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-negotiable. It's happening all the time. Sound

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waves are coming in. Your feet are in contact

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with your shoes or the floor. That's all happening,

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and you can't control it because we have sensors,

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things in our eye, our tongue, our nose, our

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skin, our ears, that take physical events in

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the universe, photons of light. Sound waves,

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physical pressure on the skin. And it transforms

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that into one language. And the language is the

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language of electricity of neurons. Now, perception

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is the next thing that the brain does. And perception

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is all about which sensations we are conscious

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of. So if I say, you know, the contact of your

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hands with the table, now you're conscious of

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it. That's just your perceptual window. It's

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like a spotlight. It just goes straight to your

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hands. So there's sensation, perception. And

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then there are these things we call emotions,

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which are brain -body states. They tend to make

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us either want to get up and move or stay still.

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They tend to make us think this is a good place

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for me to be at mentally and physically or I

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want to shift this. And then there are thoughts,

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which we could discuss in detail if you want,

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which kind of arise spontaneously. They're kind

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of running in the background all the time like

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pop -up windows on a badly filtered internet

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connection. But we can also deliberately have

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a thought. Like I can say, That pad of paper

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to my right is yellow. I can decide that. In

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the same way, I can do the fifth thing, which

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is an action. So you've got sensations, perceptions,

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feelings slash emotions, thoughts and actions.

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And all five of those include. the brain and

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the body. But how much brain and how much body

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is shifted by a kind of underlying, let's just

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think of it as a tide, like the level of the

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tide. And that's the autonomic nervous system.

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So if I'm suddenly stressed for whatever reason,

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my perceptual window is going to shift. My eyes

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are literally going to change their focus. My

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world will become more like portrait mode. I'll

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see you and everything else will become blurry.

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When I'm calm, I actually have panoramic vision.

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I can see everything around me. So I better.

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So My state, my internal state of alertness or

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sleepiness impacts all this. And in sleep, which

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is kind of the opposite extreme of stress, I'm

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not in relation to anything outside me. I'm not

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perceiving anything. I'm sensing things. It's

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non -negotiable. I'm not having real thoughts,

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but the thoughts are kind of disoriented in space

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and time. And behavior is done. You're lying

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down. You're sometimes paralyzed in sleep. So

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when I say states, it's really about this dynamic

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shift between what we're perceiving and how we're

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perceiving it. We could go really in depth in

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this or not, but states of mind are fundamentally,

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I think, to me anyway, are the most important

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aspect of trying to understand how the brain

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works. Because ultimately, if you want to understand

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mental illness and mental health, if you want

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to understand high performance, which is something

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my lab is really interested in, if you want to

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understand any of that, you have to understand

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how these states of mind and body relate. Because

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the autonomic nervous system, which is... strongly

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impacting these states is in the body. The basis

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of it is connections between the brain and body.

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So you're analyzing people in stress states,

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and are you doing cognitive function tests on

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these people in stress states versus people in

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calm, placid states? How are you doing? Are you

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doing similar tests? Yeah. So there are two states

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that – like we can take that whole tangle of

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mess that I just threw out on the table and simplify

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it and say, look, there are two states that I

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think if we could really crack, we could really

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understand the underlying neural mechanisms and

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we could understand how people could get themselves

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into these two states, we would greatly improve

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human health and human performance, cognitively

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and physically. OK. And those two states are

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the state of sleep. So not just the importance

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of sleep. I know you had Matt on here. a great

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sleep researcher, not just that sleep is important,

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but how to get better at sleeping, how to access

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sleep. So a lot of people struggle with that.

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And the other state is clear, calm, focused.

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Those two states for my lab right now are the

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target states. There's so many states, but if

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we can figure out how those work and how to allow

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people to put themselves into those states, I

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think it's my belief that we'll do. humankind

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a great service. Okay, so when you say sleep,

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the state of sleep, what techniques are you talking

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about to achieve the state of sleep or do a better

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job? of sleeping? Yeah. So when people come into

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my laboratory, we essentially start pressure

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testing them from the moment they walk in the

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door. So we have a laboratory. We do some animal

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work. We work on mice and we study states like

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fear and courage. And we're interested in what

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leads to winning in certain forms of competition

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between animals and these kinds of things, aggression,

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those kind of very primal states. We also have

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a human lab. So people come into the laboratory.

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We have an equivalent lab essentially to our

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mouse lab. People put on VR goggles. We wire

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them into a lot of gear that allows us to measure

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things like heart rate, breathing. We're measuring

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pupil size, eye tracking. And in some people,

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because they are neurosurgery patients, we have

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access to the brain. We drop electrodes down

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into the brain, record from the human amygdala.

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So you have a hole in their head? They have a

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hole in their skull. The neurosurgeons actually,

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which I am not, tell us that it's no big deal,

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right? That basically they look at the skull

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as kind of a... poorly evolved device. They always

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tell me, you know, you're much better off with

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a titanium plate there anyway. It's much stronger.

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So they don't have a problem putting a little

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hole in the skull. These are patients that have

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other issues, right? So they're saying you're

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better off with a titanium plate than skull bone?

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Well, if you're concerned about concussion or

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anything, if you really want to protect the brain,

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you would, you know, you could build a better

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device to protect the brain. But isn't the real...

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Brain damage comes from the brain slamming against

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the inside wall of the skull. Yeah. How is that

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going to be better with titanium? Yeah. I mean

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this is neurosurgeons and they're – There's foam

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inside the – Yeah. There are synthetic materials

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that they use to protect against sloshing around.

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Do they – how much – how far do they go with

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this? Do they ever like remove the top of someone's

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head and replace it with titanium? Yeah, large

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portions, large windows. I've seen windows in

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the skull that are the size of an iPhone. What?

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Yeah, sure. You don't flip it open. Oh, no. No,

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but now keep in mind that these are - Like a

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lid, a manhole cover for your brain? Basically.

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Really? Is that available online? Can Jamie look

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that up? He's looking it already. Well, you know,

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a guy who used to work in my lab, who's now at

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Neuralink, a neurosurgeon. Oh, one of those guys.

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One of those guys. Ready to fucking bring on

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the AI hyper world. I'm scared. Among other things.

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I mean, I think that, well, I always say, you

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know, all of human evolution is based on - Human

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neuroplasticity, the ability to learn and acquire

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new functions in the nervous system or where

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our biology kind of cliffs off and can't support

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us in what we want to do. We build technology.

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Right. And this is the idea. Innovation steps

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in and says, I've got an idea to accelerate this

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process. And then you get Captain Super Genius,

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who thinks it's no big deal, cut giant holes

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in the top of your head and stick these wires

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in there. I mean, I think there's that version

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of it. And I think. I haven't spoken to them

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directly, except this one individual there. But,

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you know, first of all, I don't think they're

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thinking about large windows in the skull unless

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there's a clinical need. Elon said it's about

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a quarter. Behind the ear, the route in through

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the bone there. And the other thing is that I

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think it's very likely that the first 10 years

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of that work. will be clinical in nature, movement

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disorders, Parkinson's. And of course, because

00:11:33.210 --> 00:11:35.269
I said that, they'll probably beat that by five

00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:37.629
years. Well, the quote that made me uncomfortable

00:11:37.629 --> 00:11:39.950
was when Elon told me, you're not going to have

00:11:39.950 --> 00:11:43.110
to talk to communicate anymore. I was like, oh,

00:11:43.129 --> 00:11:45.750
Jesus Christ, where are we going with this? Well,

00:11:45.789 --> 00:11:47.610
this is interesting because, so I have a good

00:11:47.610 --> 00:11:50.529
friend who's a neurosurgeon at UCSF. each other

00:11:50.529 --> 00:11:51.929
since we were little kids, since we were nine.

00:11:52.029 --> 00:11:53.450
His name is Eddie Chang, and he's kind of the

00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:55.769
world expert. He's a neurosurgeon, but he's also

00:11:55.769 --> 00:11:58.350
the world expert in speech and language. And

00:11:58.350 --> 00:12:00.470
what he's been doing is decoding, essentially

00:12:00.470 --> 00:12:02.029
figuring out what neural signals come out of

00:12:02.029 --> 00:12:03.850
the brain that allow us to speak in a certain

00:12:03.850 --> 00:12:06.809
way. So let's say I wanted to build a device

00:12:06.809 --> 00:12:09.509
that would allow you to speak eight languages

00:12:09.509 --> 00:12:12.809
tomorrow that you don't know today. The reflexive

00:12:12.809 --> 00:12:16.019
idea is... That people like Eddie and people

00:12:16.019 --> 00:12:18.019
like me and maybe the Neuralink folks are going

00:12:18.019 --> 00:12:20.480
to go in and build chips that are going to stimulate

00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.279
the hippocampus and you're going to learn faster

00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:24.000
and do all that. But there's a whole other version

00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.639
of this. And it gets right back to this issue

00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:27.019
of brain and body that we were talking about

00:12:27.019 --> 00:12:30.440
before. Now, speech is a brain thing. You think

00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:32.659
about what you want to say, maybe for a joke

00:12:32.659 --> 00:12:35.379
or here, and it's in your head. But it's transformed,

00:12:35.740 --> 00:12:38.960
meaning those nerve signals go in the form of

00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:41.299
electricity to the pharynx and larynx. And you

00:12:41.299 --> 00:12:44.350
say things like, hello, my name is. In my case,

00:12:44.350 --> 00:12:47.470
Andrew, right? That transformation is happening

00:12:47.470 --> 00:12:50.610
at the muscle. So in theory, if I know that in

00:12:50.610 --> 00:12:53.029
English, right, and I know the nerve signals

00:12:53.029 --> 00:12:55.929
that come out of that area of cortex, that speech

00:12:55.929 --> 00:12:58.789
area, that say, hello, my name is Andrew. Well,

00:12:58.950 --> 00:13:01.529
I can take those, look at how it controls the

00:13:01.529 --> 00:13:03.830
pharynx and larynx, and insert maybe a little

00:13:03.830 --> 00:13:05.570
box. Maybe I don't even have to put it under

00:13:05.570 --> 00:13:08.389
the skin. Maybe it's a device that I hold. So

00:13:08.389 --> 00:13:10.230
that when I say, hello, my name is Andrew, but

00:13:10.230 --> 00:13:13.950
I dial it to Mandarin or French, I'll just say,

00:13:14.049 --> 00:13:15.649
and I can't do this because I don't speak Mandarin

00:13:15.649 --> 00:13:17.669
or French. Hello, my name is Andrew. I'll think

00:13:17.669 --> 00:13:20.169
that, say it in English in my head, but my pharynx

00:13:20.169 --> 00:13:22.110
and larynx will say it in Mandarin or French.

00:13:22.309 --> 00:13:24.649
But isn't the problem with the way language is

00:13:24.649 --> 00:13:30.549
structured in different languages? I'm sure you've

00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:32.830
read translations from Russian to English. Sure.

00:13:32.929 --> 00:13:35.049
It's really weird. Very different. Or English

00:13:35.049 --> 00:13:36.809
to Russian is even weirder sometimes. Right.

00:13:36.889 --> 00:13:39.029
So this is really Eddie's work, but because we're

00:13:39.029 --> 00:13:40.450
such good friends, we talk about this a lot.

00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:42.830
One of the fundamental discoveries that he's

00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:44.809
made – and I should just mention all these neurosurgery

00:13:44.809 --> 00:13:46.710
patients, they have epilepsy or something else.

00:13:46.730 --> 00:13:48.309
There's a reason for opening up the skull and

00:13:48.309 --> 00:13:50.169
going in there. We're not just – Just curious.

00:13:50.429 --> 00:13:52.549
There was a time a couple decades ago when you

00:13:52.549 --> 00:13:54.210
could do this kind of stuff, and there's some

00:13:54.210 --> 00:13:55.690
very interesting experiments that came out of

00:13:55.690 --> 00:13:57.750
that just because you could decide to study rage

00:13:57.750 --> 00:13:59.490
in humans and go in there and start probing around.

00:14:00.889 --> 00:14:03.450
Lobotomies. Lobotomies, yeah. There's obviously

00:14:03.450 --> 00:14:06.289
a really interesting and famous and kind of sad

00:14:06.289 --> 00:14:08.190
history around that, but also some interesting

00:14:08.190 --> 00:14:11.279
data came out of it. You know, a patient will

00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:12.980
come in, they'll do this, they'll record these

00:14:12.980 --> 00:14:15.940
areas. And what he's found, it's so interesting

00:14:15.940 --> 00:14:18.860
because if I, let's just say with that same statement,

00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.779
hello, my name is Andrew. There's a neuron in

00:14:22.779 --> 00:14:26.600
my cortex that responds when I say that and when

00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:29.059
I want to say that. But if I just change it slightly

00:14:29.059 --> 00:14:32.580
and I say, hello, my name is Andrew, I make it

00:14:32.580 --> 00:14:35.159
a question. There's a neuron right next door

00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:38.039
that encodes that. Turns out there's a map of

00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:41.809
inflection. Regardless of language, there's a

00:14:41.809 --> 00:14:44.049
map of – it's not quite meaning but there's a

00:14:44.049 --> 00:14:47.330
map of intonation and inflection in the brain.

00:14:47.490 --> 00:14:49.850
So in theory, because that map is so regular

00:14:49.850 --> 00:14:52.909
across cultures, he's looked now in Chinese -speaking

00:14:52.909 --> 00:14:55.750
people, in English -speaking people and people

00:14:55.750 --> 00:14:58.139
who have a second language. He's even has some

00:14:58.139 --> 00:15:00.000
interesting data about people who have up speak.

00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:02.399
They're really annoying. Oh, I hate that shit.

00:15:02.500 --> 00:15:05.019
Yeah. That's a lot near where you live. Yeah.

00:15:05.379 --> 00:15:08.259
That's a San Francisco tech thing. Is it? Yeah.

00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:10.720
It's like what they're doing is letting you know

00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:14.340
that they're one of the tribe. Okay. And we're

00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:16.639
all in this together. And I think like you do.

00:15:17.139 --> 00:15:19.480
And you can trust me because I'm an original.

00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:22.139
Well, it might reflect a subtle brain damage.

00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:25.179
You think? I think the data show that it's a

00:15:25.179 --> 00:15:28.460
distortion of the regular map. I think it's the

00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:30.899
same thing as a southern accent. I think you're

00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:32.740
just fitting in with your environment. Because

00:15:32.740 --> 00:15:34.700
I know people that have adopted that shit once

00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:36.740
they've gotten into the tech world. I'm like,

00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:38.980
hey, fuckface, you didn't used to talk like that.

00:15:39.220 --> 00:15:42.019
Or the people that go to... England and start

00:15:42.019 --> 00:15:43.320
speaking with a British accent? Oh, like Madonna.

00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:45.580
Oh, did she do that? Yes, she did. I don't follow

00:15:45.580 --> 00:15:48.059
pop culture carefully enough. Yes, she did. Yeah,

00:15:48.139 --> 00:15:49.440
I'm moving to Texas. I'm going to start saying

00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.480
y 'all two weeks in. I'm giving myself two weeks.

00:15:51.860 --> 00:15:54.039
I'm going to try out y 'all. Well, some of this

00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.399
stuff is learned. Are you moving? I've heard

00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:00.340
rumors of that, but I guess, okay. Sorry to hear

00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:02.259
that. Sorry for California. Congratulations,

00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:07.159
Texas. These maps have some regularities across

00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:09.120
people because when we're born into the world,

00:16:09.610 --> 00:16:11.850
You know, we are not a completely clean slate.

00:16:11.990 --> 00:16:16.070
There's a kind of a map that expects the world,

00:16:16.210 --> 00:16:18.389
including language, to be a certain way. And

00:16:18.389 --> 00:16:20.269
we can't expect that we're going to be born in

00:16:20.269 --> 00:16:22.490
China or born in France or born in California

00:16:22.490 --> 00:16:25.169
or Northern California for that matter. So the

00:16:25.169 --> 00:16:29.440
map is what we call semi -malleable. It's not

00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:32.799
a rigid, concrete, hardwired map. So what makes

00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.440
you think that this upspeak is like damage? Well,

00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:38.620
so I asked Eddie about this. Eddie? Chang, my

00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:40.320
friend, this neurosurgeon who is, you know, kind

00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.360
of premier world. Not kind of. He is the world

00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:43.980
expert on speech and language and the neural

00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:45.700
transformations and how it controls the pharynx,

00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:49.399
all that stuff. And I said, what's with the upspeak

00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:51.980
thing? He said, yeah, you know, we see that sometimes

00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:54.809
and I'm concerned about that. And when a neurosurgeon

00:16:54.809 --> 00:16:56.350
tells you their concern, you kind of go, okay,

00:16:56.389 --> 00:16:57.789
what are you concerned about? And he goes, there's

00:16:57.789 --> 00:17:00.509
something wrong with the map. And this kind of

00:17:00.509 --> 00:17:04.289
– so maybe it's – it could be because of upbringing

00:17:04.289 --> 00:17:07.470
and people – the brain is plastic as adults too.

00:17:07.750 --> 00:17:10.750
And not in the same way it's plastic in childhood.

00:17:10.950 --> 00:17:14.109
But if you are forced to learn another language,

00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:16.490
your brain will fundamentally shift. Neuroplasticity

00:17:16.490 --> 00:17:20.490
is a real thing. And I think it's interesting

00:17:20.490 --> 00:17:22.430
you raise this kind of cultural component because

00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:26.289
– Actually, it was Eddie's advisor, a guy named

00:17:26.289 --> 00:17:28.890
Mike Merzenich, was really the one who discovered

00:17:28.890 --> 00:17:31.750
adult neuroplasticity. You know, in the 70s and

00:17:31.750 --> 00:17:34.930
80s, and my actually scientific great grandparents,

00:17:35.170 --> 00:17:36.750
David Hubel and Torrenson Wiesel, won the Nobel

00:17:36.750 --> 00:17:38.569
Prize for showing there are critical periods,

00:17:38.730 --> 00:17:40.769
these periods of development after which the

00:17:40.769 --> 00:17:43.430
brain cannot change. And they had important implications

00:17:43.430 --> 00:17:47.589
for amblyopia and eye stuff. Merzenich came along

00:17:47.589 --> 00:17:50.069
and said, you know what? I don't buy that. And

00:17:50.069 --> 00:17:51.769
he started doing experiments with his students

00:17:51.769 --> 00:17:55.269
and postdocs where they would create an essential

00:17:55.269 --> 00:17:59.109
need or contingency. Like if the animal doesn't

00:17:59.109 --> 00:18:03.230
eat unless it learns something, then the brain

00:18:03.230 --> 00:18:05.789
can change. If you break down learning events

00:18:05.789 --> 00:18:08.210
into kind of smaller, more focused events, the

00:18:08.210 --> 00:18:10.450
brain can change as an adult at essentially any

00:18:10.450 --> 00:18:16.230
age. And so the strongest drive for adult neuroplasticity

00:18:16.230 --> 00:18:20.309
is focus. It's the ability to say, this is really

00:18:20.309 --> 00:18:22.930
important. It's making a soda straw view of the

00:18:22.930 --> 00:18:24.630
world. It's almost like being in a state of stress.

00:18:25.190 --> 00:18:29.650
And the best way to do that for a young person

00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:32.769
in adolescence or maybe even older is the social

00:18:32.769 --> 00:18:34.890
pressures. If they're strong, they will shape

00:18:34.890 --> 00:18:36.930
and rewire the brain. I mean, I look at what's

00:18:36.930 --> 00:18:38.690
happening in the world right now, and I think

00:18:38.690 --> 00:18:42.289
we are in a state of immense neuroplasticity.

00:18:42.289 --> 00:18:44.710
Everybody is having to rewire their understanding

00:18:44.710 --> 00:18:49.680
of what's going on. Just to sort of put a – kind

00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.960
of a bow of some sort on the speech and language

00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.400
thing. I don't think brain -machine interface

00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.400
is going to be all about sticking chips in the

00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:58.119
head. But still, let's get back to the upspeak

00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.299
thing. Sure. Why does he think it's damage? Like

00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:03.359
what is it about upspeak? Well, he just thinks

00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:05.559
that the map, which shows up kind of normally

00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:08.240
in – I mean, this is probably the first time

00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.380
in human history people have used this upspeak.

00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:11.740
It's also the first time in human history people

00:19:11.740 --> 00:19:13.799
have typed with their thumbs. I was listening

00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:15.339
to two guys at the airport back when you can

00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:17.079
go to the airport. And these two guys at the

00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:19.980
airport were talking in upspeak. And it was like

00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:22.140
as clear as day to me. Like they were letting

00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.740
each other know that they're in the tribe. And,

00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:27.200
you know, I remember Jamie had a tech problem

00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.359
once and he was on the phone with this lady who

00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:31.480
was doing upspeak. When she was talking to him

00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.380
and we both looked at each other like, ew, yuck.

00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:37.500
It does kind of create a kind of visceral, like,

00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:40.680
like nauseous. I can't trust those people. I

00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.099
can't trust someone who talks like that because

00:19:43.099 --> 00:19:45.660
I know you're unoriginal. Like you, not, not

00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:48.359
what, not what most of us are clearly at least.

00:19:49.230 --> 00:19:51.990
mostly influenced by the people around us. But

00:19:51.990 --> 00:19:54.690
it's not just that. It's like you've changed

00:19:54.690 --> 00:19:59.250
how you talk to fit in with this. There's a tech

00:19:59.250 --> 00:20:02.750
world. There's tech language. That's tech speak.

00:20:02.970 --> 00:20:06.170
It's English, but it's tech speak English. It's

00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:08.190
letting you know. And there does seem to be a

00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:09.829
body response too. There's a thing to it. There's

00:20:09.829 --> 00:20:11.509
sort of a spinal extension. I don't trust them.

00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:15.289
I don't trust them. I think they're sneaky. Well,

00:20:15.309 --> 00:20:18.289
I'll try and get the data from Eddie. I'm being

00:20:18.289 --> 00:20:21.009
halfway joking here. If you're like an upspeak

00:20:21.009 --> 00:20:22.769
person, like, hey, man, I've always loved your

00:20:22.769 --> 00:20:24.809
show. But then you said you don't trust people

00:20:24.809 --> 00:20:28.349
who talk like me. Joking. But also, stop doing

00:20:28.349 --> 00:20:30.750
that. Stop fucking doing that. I know what you're

00:20:30.750 --> 00:20:34.769
doing. I think Eddie would say that there's some

00:20:34.769 --> 00:20:37.650
distortion in the way they're using this map.

00:20:37.829 --> 00:20:39.589
But how did it start? I think it started with

00:20:39.589 --> 00:20:42.859
one. Really smart person who's probably a little

00:20:42.859 --> 00:20:45.640
autistic who talked like that because they were

00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.460
trying to keep it together. And then everyone

00:20:48.460 --> 00:20:50.059
else was like, I want to be as smart as John.

00:20:50.299 --> 00:20:52.460
And then they started talking like that. And

00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:54.779
then it became a thing, sort of like accents.

00:20:54.980 --> 00:20:58.359
I grew up in Boston, right? They talk in a weird

00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:00.839
way. And I picked it up. And then one time I

00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.339
heard myself on television. I heard myself talk

00:21:03.339 --> 00:21:05.359
like that when I was 19. I was like, oh, my God.

00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:08.140
I sound like a fucking idiot. What is wrong with

00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:10.549
me? Because I had only lived there. at that time

00:21:10.549 --> 00:21:12.970
for like six years but i adopted it whole hog

00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:15.990
and i was like what what's wrong with me like

00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:18.049
why am i i wanted to fit in that's what it was

00:21:18.049 --> 00:21:20.450
i'd moved there when i was 13 and i tried to

00:21:20.450 --> 00:21:22.730
fit in and so i had adopted this speech pattern

00:21:22.730 --> 00:21:24.910
i didn't realize it until i heard it like you

00:21:24.910 --> 00:21:27.190
knew you listen to a tape of yourself you actually

00:21:27.190 --> 00:21:29.289
find out what you really sound like you're like

00:21:29.289 --> 00:21:32.890
ew do you watch your performances i have to watch

00:21:32.890 --> 00:21:36.480
stand up I have to watch some of those. Podcasts,

00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.079
I try not to unless it's important, unless it's

00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:40.819
like something that I need to watch over again.

00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:42.660
Like I'll probably listen to this one over again

00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:44.019
because you're probably going to say some things

00:21:44.019 --> 00:21:46.240
that you already have that I need to reflect

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.759
on and research. This is a very interesting subject

00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:51.740
to me. It's very important to me, and there's

00:21:51.740 --> 00:21:53.420
many different parts of this that I wanted to

00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:58.880
talk to you about, particularly how— people respond

00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:02.200
to damaged brains and what can be done to repair

00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.859
damaged brains, and stress, what we were talking

00:22:05.859 --> 00:22:08.299
about earlier, states of stress and how they

00:22:08.299 --> 00:22:13.220
reflect on your ability to think and assess and

00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:16.380
resolve problems. Because it seems to me that,

00:22:16.460 --> 00:22:21.750
me personally, if I'm tired, If I'm, like, particularly

00:22:21.750 --> 00:22:24.069
working out, right? Like, if I'm working out

00:22:24.069 --> 00:22:27.130
with, like, a Muay Thai trainer and he has, like,

00:22:27.150 --> 00:22:29.029
a particular combination that he wants me to

00:22:29.029 --> 00:22:31.930
do, if I'm exhausted, it's like my monkey brain

00:22:31.930 --> 00:22:34.369
can't put that combination together. I'm like,

00:22:34.410 --> 00:22:37.869
what do I do again? Left, right, low kick, knee

00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:41.009
to the body, elbow, clinch. Like, what is it

00:22:41.009 --> 00:22:44.109
again? Like, it's simple. It's very simple, right?

00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:47.309
But if I'm tired, it's not simple anymore. So

00:22:47.309 --> 00:22:50.900
what's going on? Like, why? Does being tired

00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:54.599
have an effect on the way you perceive things

00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:57.740
and what memory and? Combinations of things that

00:22:57.740 --> 00:23:00.420
you have to put together and that's nothing that's

00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:03.079
just being tired That's not your life depending

00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:06.460
upon it, which is a huge factor and for fighters

00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.700
There are many, many fighters who do really well

00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:12.839
in the gym when there's no pressure. They're

00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:14.519
comfortable. You look at them, you're like, wow,

00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:17.259
that guy's incredibly skillful. He must be incredible.

00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:19.400
Like when he fights, he must be amazing. Then

00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:21.440
you see him fight and they just lock up. Like

00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:25.059
for whatever reason, they can't rise to the occasion.

00:23:25.220 --> 00:23:28.059
They are dwarfed by the moment. And whatever

00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:30.539
it is, whether it's the way they're perceiving

00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:34.980
these threats, the way... their mind is just

00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:39.400
wired or the way they have learned to handle

00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:42.640
situations. Maybe they have a series of bad memories

00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.759
that gets relayed every time they're in a situation

00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.480
and they start concentrating more on failure

00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.440
than on staying calm and trusting the process,

00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:55.099
which is a big factor. Your training is supposed

00:23:55.099 --> 00:23:57.910
to come out almost in a zen -like state. And

00:23:57.910 --> 00:24:00.210
when you're fighting, the whole idea is to maintain

00:24:00.210 --> 00:24:03.329
calm and maintain this sort of center as much

00:24:03.329 --> 00:24:05.569
as possible. And when someone's pressuring you

00:24:05.569 --> 00:24:07.789
and attacking you and talking shit to you in

00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:09.710
particular, what they're trying to do is weaken

00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:11.589
that center. What they're trying to do is break

00:24:11.589 --> 00:24:13.589
that up so you can't have a happy place. There's

00:24:13.589 --> 00:24:15.430
no happy place for you. And then you see people

00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:17.849
fall apart. You see them fold. And it's fascinating

00:24:17.849 --> 00:24:20.829
because it's not a physical thing. Like the physical

00:24:20.829 --> 00:24:23.029
body is still capable of performing, but there's

00:24:23.029 --> 00:24:27.000
something going on with stress. Where the brain

00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.839
can't send the orders to the body correctly.

00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:35.500
And you're so overwhelmed with anxiety or fear

00:24:35.500 --> 00:24:40.299
of failure or just the overwhelming reality of

00:24:40.299 --> 00:24:42.799
the consequences of making a mistake that you

00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:46.289
crumble. Yeah. This is why we're. obsessed with

00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:49.109
clear common focus yeah or sleep as a good jumping

00:24:49.109 --> 00:24:51.150
off point for you know because we eventually

00:24:51.150 --> 00:24:53.690
want to tackle all the states but that's a good

00:24:53.690 --> 00:24:55.369
jumping we're jumping all over the place but

00:24:55.369 --> 00:24:57.589
let's get we started with sleep so let's get

00:24:57.589 --> 00:25:00.890
back to sleep so sleep and stress make a good

00:25:00.890 --> 00:25:03.630
uh sort of counter examples so but if we're just

00:25:03.630 --> 00:25:05.490
going to focus on sleep first of all sleep is

00:25:05.490 --> 00:25:07.309
the only time that you're in complete relation

00:25:07.309 --> 00:25:10.710
to only one thing and that's yourself it's also

00:25:10.710 --> 00:25:14.039
a time in which There's a core operation of the

00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:17.539
brain in wakefulness. This is especially apparent

00:25:17.539 --> 00:25:20.819
in stress, but it's happening all the time, where

00:25:20.819 --> 00:25:22.779
your brain is trying to do two things in wakefulness.

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:24.539
And I realize we're talking about sleep, but

00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:28.359
most of what your brain is trying to do is pass

00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:30.779
things off to reflexive behavior. So I don't

00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:32.339
have to think about picking up water. I don't

00:25:32.339 --> 00:25:33.640
have to think about walking down the hall. I

00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:36.099
just do it. I just breathe. I just move. I eat.

00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.579
I'm not conscious of it. There's another mental

00:25:39.579 --> 00:25:43.140
operation. which is very demanding, but extremely

00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:46.279
important. And this is encompassing a lot of

00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:48.839
different aspects of neural circuitry and function,

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.200
but the brain wants to figure out duration, path,

00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.000
and outcome. How long is something going to last?

00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:56.819
What's the path to do it? And how is it going

00:25:56.819 --> 00:25:59.960
to work out? Those are the two things that the

00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:02.119
brain is mainly managing during waking states.

00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:04.099
And of course, it's keeping your heart rate going

00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:05.619
and your breathing going, your digesting going,

00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:08.339
but that's all running in the background. When

00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:12.259
you go to sleep, Your perception of space and

00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:14.839
time, not outer space, unless that's what you're

00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:18.599
thinking about, but space and time becomes untethered.

00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.079
It becomes very fluid. So when you lie down to

00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.920
go to sleep at night and you're drowsy, you stop

00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:28.460
doing these duration path outcome analyses. And

00:26:28.460 --> 00:26:29.940
if you have trouble sleeping, it's because you're

00:26:29.940 --> 00:26:31.720
still doing what's the duration? What's the path?

00:26:31.819 --> 00:26:33.220
What's the outcome? Your brain's looping in that.

00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:37.240
So when you go into sleep, it's the one time.

00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:39.900
in which the brain can untether space and time.

00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:42.279
Like if this were a dream, you know, your dog

00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:44.359
could float in here and sit down on the table

00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:46.339
and then morph into somebody that you know from

00:26:46.339 --> 00:26:48.460
long ago. And we'd be okay with that because

00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:52.839
it was a dream. So that period of six to eight

00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:54.940
or 10 hours, whatever you need, is essential

00:26:54.940 --> 00:26:58.619
for resetting neural circuits in the brain. There's

00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:00.259
some chemical events too, but neural circuits

00:27:00.259 --> 00:27:03.759
so that during wakefulness, you can do duration

00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:06.039
path outcome, like learning a new martial art.

00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:10.319
move. So it's the untethered aspect of it is

00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:12.720
crucial? It's absolutely crucial. And how do

00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:14.579
we know this? We know this. So when people come

00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:16.839
into my lab, we study these two states. We put

00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:20.359
them into VR goggles and we deliver very real,

00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:23.359
not cartoons and animation, but very real 360

00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:26.299
video of things like claustrophobia, if you're

00:27:26.299 --> 00:27:28.339
claustrophobic, diving with great white sharks,

00:27:28.460 --> 00:27:30.759
if you don't like sharks, spiders crawling up

00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.180
you, we find your pain point. We bring you into

00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:37.789
a state of stress and we find In everybody, and

00:27:37.789 --> 00:27:40.289
this is not necessarily a new phenomenon, that

00:27:40.289 --> 00:27:42.910
your pupils dilate. When your pupils dilate,

00:27:42.910 --> 00:27:45.589
the optics of your world changes. And you are

00:27:45.589 --> 00:27:48.309
looking at the visual world, which is space,

00:27:48.529 --> 00:27:52.049
physical space, and you start slicing time differently.

00:27:52.230 --> 00:27:54.150
If you've ever been stressed, it feels like things

00:27:54.150 --> 00:27:57.710
are taking forever. That's because your body

00:27:57.710 --> 00:28:00.750
is sending your brain more signals per unit time.

00:28:01.250 --> 00:28:04.609
It's saying, like, My body's active, my body's

00:28:04.609 --> 00:28:06.250
active, my body's active, my body's active. Think

00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:08.609
about when you're drowsy, your body is sending

00:28:08.609 --> 00:28:11.769
fewer signals to the brain per unit time. And

00:28:11.769 --> 00:28:14.710
what ends up happening is the brain uses physical

00:28:14.710 --> 00:28:18.069
space and use these signals from the body. We

00:28:18.069 --> 00:28:20.549
know this from neural recordings to start creating

00:28:20.549 --> 00:28:23.849
a space -time relationship. The space -time relationship

00:28:23.849 --> 00:28:26.089
really says, let's just take the jujitsu example,

00:28:26.309 --> 00:28:28.750
even though I've never done jujitsu. You're trying

00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:31.289
to figure out. Where do I place my hand? Where's

00:28:31.289 --> 00:28:33.869
my grip? How do I move my leverage? What am I

00:28:33.869 --> 00:28:35.390
going to do when you're trying to sequence thing?

00:28:35.450 --> 00:28:38.950
It's duration, path, and outcome. In sleep, the

00:28:38.950 --> 00:28:41.849
forebrain essentially shuts off. There's some

00:28:41.849 --> 00:28:43.630
other things that happen too, of course. And

00:28:43.630 --> 00:28:46.690
the brain starts to drift and idle into these

00:28:46.690 --> 00:28:49.490
states where duration, path, and outcome analyses

00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:53.150
become impossible. We also put people into deeply

00:28:53.150 --> 00:28:55.849
relaxed states. So we're studying three different

00:28:55.849 --> 00:28:59.250
ways to do that. One is hypnosis, which is not

00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:01.890
like, you know, charm hypnosis, stage hypnosis,

00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:04.329
but medical hypnosis. My colleague David Spiegel

00:29:04.329 --> 00:29:05.589
in the Department of Psychiatry is kind of a

00:29:05.589 --> 00:29:08.470
world expert in hypnosis for pain management,

00:29:08.710 --> 00:29:12.210
et cetera, trauma. You can put people into hypnotic

00:29:12.210 --> 00:29:14.309
states, which are very sleep -like. They're a

00:29:14.309 --> 00:29:15.589
little different than sleep, but they're like

00:29:15.589 --> 00:29:18.609
a shallow stage of sleep. We also use particular

00:29:18.609 --> 00:29:20.849
patterns of breathing or respiration to bring

00:29:20.849 --> 00:29:23.250
people into states that are sort of like sleep.

00:29:23.289 --> 00:29:24.950
It's like a very shallow level of sleep, but

00:29:24.950 --> 00:29:28.099
they're completely immobile. Or in some cases,

00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.779
we've studied things like more traditional forms

00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:32.720
of meditation, although that's less the focus

00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.599
these days. What we find is that the brain can

00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:39.799
go into states where duration, path, and outcome,

00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:43.420
cognitive processing, physical activity is impossible.

00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:46.339
And the brain starts to show wave -like activity

00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:49.779
that's very similar to sleep. And what I didn't

00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:51.559
tell you is that we also have people do a cognitive

00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:53.799
task. So while they're in a very stressful environment,

00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:55.599
like with heights or they're being bombarded

00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.009
with… you know, snake experience or we have a

00:29:58.009 --> 00:29:59.690
bunch of different experiences, they're required

00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:02.410
to do a cognitive task, which is a duration path

00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:04.990
outcome task. And then we put them into these

00:30:04.990 --> 00:30:07.630
states of pseudo sleep. And then we evaluate

00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:10.150
their ability to perform in these tasks again.

00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:12.730
And what we found is interesting. What we found

00:30:12.730 --> 00:30:15.369
is that first of all, these sleep -like states

00:30:15.369 --> 00:30:19.539
can be very restorative. I imagine that... You

00:30:19.539 --> 00:30:21.019
mentioned the float tank earlier, like maybe

00:30:21.019 --> 00:30:22.660
float tanks. And we could talk about why the

00:30:22.660 --> 00:30:24.579
float tank would put you into a pseudo sleep

00:30:24.579 --> 00:30:26.859
-like state. Certain substances put us into sleep

00:30:26.859 --> 00:30:29.640
-like states. Naps and just letting the mind

00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.819
drift can put us into sleep -like states. And

00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:35.240
those sleep -like states do two things that are

00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.460
very powerful. One is they reset our ability

00:30:37.460 --> 00:30:41.019
to do these very taxing, demanding duration path

00:30:41.019 --> 00:30:44.319
outcome kind of brain functions. As well, they

00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:48.269
allow people to access sleep more easily. So

00:30:48.269 --> 00:30:50.890
we want people to be able to get into deep sleep

00:30:50.890 --> 00:30:53.349
because nothing is as restorative as deep sleep

00:30:53.349 --> 00:30:56.109
because in deep sleep and in the states that

00:30:56.109 --> 00:30:58.109
I'm talking about, these deeply relaxed states,

00:30:58.410 --> 00:31:01.309
duration path outcome analyses are impossible.

00:31:01.910 --> 00:31:05.130
And I think being able to toggle back and forth

00:31:05.130 --> 00:31:07.970
between these states is really where high performance

00:31:07.970 --> 00:31:10.970
emerges. So for the very stressed human being

00:31:10.970 --> 00:31:12.750
who's suffering from generalized anxiety, we

00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:16.509
study those types of patients. in addition for

00:31:16.509 --> 00:31:18.349
people who are doing well in life but are high

00:31:18.349 --> 00:31:20.150
performers. So we do some work with elite military,

00:31:20.349 --> 00:31:23.210
with some athletes. We've had David Goggins out

00:31:23.210 --> 00:31:26.859
to the lab. You can't use him. You can't use

00:31:26.859 --> 00:31:30.039
him. So he's an extreme outlier, right? He's

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.480
too far on the outside. So what's remarkable

00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:35.319
about him is he has figured out how to tap into

00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:38.720
– he can force himself into duration path outcome.

00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:41.019
Now, I don't know his state while he's running,

00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:43.200
if he's relaxed, if he's aggro the whole time.

00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:46.200
I don't know. But he is a bit of a mutant in

00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:48.299
the sense that – but he's created in his words.

00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:50.240
He's turned himself into that mutant. He's figured

00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.339
it out. He's figured it out. He was not born

00:31:52.339 --> 00:31:54.920
that way. We know that. The most special thing

00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:57.140
about him, really, is that and also that he's

00:31:57.140 --> 00:31:59.779
willing to share that he was at one point in

00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:03.339
time a large, fat, lazy guy, you know, and then

00:32:03.339 --> 00:32:06.759
he became this savage that you see. He forced

00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:09.420
his mind into that particular state. Well, and

00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:12.039
the states that will allow people to go there

00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:15.920
often are fear states. anxiety states, things

00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.359
that are extremely high pressure because the

00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:21.579
adult brain especially doesn't want to change.

00:32:21.779 --> 00:32:24.119
We're basically born, we get wired up by our

00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:26.380
experience, we get wired up by what we're exposed

00:32:26.380 --> 00:32:28.980
to. Brain plasticity is very passive for the

00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:33.779
first 25 years of life. If you're a child, the

00:32:33.779 --> 00:32:35.700
things you hear and see and do are shaping you.

00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:37.940
Kids come home saying things they've never even

00:32:37.940 --> 00:32:41.140
heard before. It's amazing. And as an adult,

00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.240
you have to crack into that neural circuitry

00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:46.789
and reshape it. But why is that? What is it about

00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:50.190
adults? Because I have my own theory, and this

00:32:50.190 --> 00:32:53.190
is just a martial arts -based theory. Young kids

00:32:53.190 --> 00:32:56.289
learn so fast. They learn so fast. But I always

00:32:56.289 --> 00:32:57.849
feel like it's because they don't have jobs.

00:32:58.069 --> 00:33:00.569
They don't have a family to take care of. They

00:33:00.569 --> 00:33:02.210
don't have a girlfriend who's on their back.

00:33:02.390 --> 00:33:06.029
They don't have bills and the IRS breathing down

00:33:06.029 --> 00:33:07.789
their neck. They don't have anything. So they

00:33:07.789 --> 00:33:10.569
can just think about it, and their mind, like,

00:33:10.670 --> 00:33:14.390
if... If they have a hard drive, right, and they

00:33:14.390 --> 00:33:16.930
have a one terabyte hard drive, they got like

00:33:16.930 --> 00:33:20.210
a hundred gigs full. They have all this space.

00:33:20.289 --> 00:33:22.589
You could fill that space up with technique and

00:33:22.589 --> 00:33:24.809
movement and it becomes their whole life because

00:33:24.809 --> 00:33:26.869
it's thrilling and it's exciting to learn and

00:33:26.869 --> 00:33:29.710
their body heals quicker so they can force themselves

00:33:29.710 --> 00:33:32.730
into situations. With adults, it's extremely

00:33:32.730 --> 00:33:35.670
difficult to find the bandwidth, to find the

00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:37.990
amount of time to really completely focus on

00:33:37.990 --> 00:33:39.730
something because you have so many distractions.

00:33:40.170 --> 00:33:42.730
Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. What you

00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:45.349
just described is a beautiful description of

00:33:45.349 --> 00:33:48.970
the top contour. And below that, what's happening

00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:52.509
is in childhood, the whole brain is literally

00:33:52.509 --> 00:33:54.670
more plastic because there's more space for the

00:33:54.670 --> 00:33:56.289
neurons to move around and make new connections.

00:33:56.529 --> 00:33:59.630
The whole environment. The chemicals that are

00:33:59.630 --> 00:34:01.930
swirling around in there are set for plasticity

00:34:01.930 --> 00:34:03.289
because we were basically designed to come into

00:34:03.289 --> 00:34:06.089
the world and be customized to our experience.

00:34:06.309 --> 00:34:08.269
I mean, if the human animal is exceptionally

00:34:08.269 --> 00:34:10.909
good at any one thing, it's that. So if you're

00:34:10.909 --> 00:34:13.829
an adult, say if you're a 35 -year -old man with

00:34:13.829 --> 00:34:16.829
a family or a 35 -year -old woman with a family

00:34:16.829 --> 00:34:19.530
and a job and you want to learn a new skill,

00:34:19.789 --> 00:34:24.469
what is the best way to force your brain to accept

00:34:24.469 --> 00:34:29.139
these new patterns and learn this quickly? By

00:34:29.139 --> 00:34:32.960
attacking two separate parts of a process. Neuroplasticity

00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:35.199
is not an event. It's a process and it has two

00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.659
parts. The first one is if you want to learn

00:34:37.659 --> 00:34:39.340
and change your brain as an adult, there has

00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:43.039
to be a high level of focus and engagement. There's

00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.420
absolutely no way around this because so focus

00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:49.199
and intensity and that kind of the Goggins phenotype,

00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:50.800
right? I think Goggins is now a noun, a verb

00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:52.599
and a pronoun, right? It's like, it's amazing.

00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:54.860
So if you're going to Goggins this process, what

00:34:54.860 --> 00:34:56.860
you need to do is you need to, regardless of

00:34:56.860 --> 00:35:00.579
how agitated you feel, you have to lean in and

00:35:00.579 --> 00:35:03.719
focus extremely hard. Now, the reason for that

00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:05.739
is that there's a neurochemical norepinephrine,

00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:08.739
also called adrenaline, same thing. That's released

00:35:08.739 --> 00:35:11.199
in the brain and body. Most people back off at

00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.039
that point because they feel this agitation.

00:35:13.460 --> 00:35:15.900
But we have to remember that that noradrenaline

00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:18.260
was designed to get us into movement. That's

00:35:18.260 --> 00:35:20.300
the purpose of noradrenaline, to take us out

00:35:20.300 --> 00:35:22.780
of stillness and into movement. And then the

00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:24.360
other thing we have to do is we have to take

00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:27.219
that elevated level of alertness and we have

00:35:27.219 --> 00:35:29.440
to focus it. And there's a second neuromodulator

00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.880
called acetylcholine. Which is secreted from

00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.920
this little structure in the base of the forebrain

00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:37.760
when we visually focus on something. Or in the

00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:39.420
case of maybe if you're doing auditory learning

00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:41.800
when you focus with your auditory attention.

00:35:42.099 --> 00:35:45.159
Can I pause you there for a second? So acetylcholine

00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:47.760
you could take in a supplement. And norepinephrine

00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.300
you can actually get from float ice tanks. Like

00:35:52.300 --> 00:35:55.199
you can get it from cryo chambers. You can get

00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:58.639
it from cryotherapy. So using those strategies

00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.199
of taking like acetylcholine is actually an alpha

00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.219
brain. One of the supplements my company sells.

00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:07.619
When you take that along with float tanks and

00:36:07.619 --> 00:36:12.159
doing, or excuse me, cryo chambers and do some

00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:15.360
intense exercise or whatever you're trying to

00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:18.469
get good at with intense focus. Can those things

00:36:18.469 --> 00:36:21.349
accelerate that process? Almost certainly increases

00:36:21.349 --> 00:36:24.050
the plasticity, the rate of plasticity. So you

00:36:24.050 --> 00:36:25.409
would recommend if someone was trying to get

00:36:25.409 --> 00:36:28.369
better at something, like a cryo chamber would

00:36:28.369 --> 00:36:30.550
actually accelerate the process of learning?

00:36:31.010 --> 00:36:35.349
Yeah. So, yes. Wow. So the reason for that, but

00:36:35.349 --> 00:36:37.630
you don't necessarily need a cryo chamber. What

00:36:37.630 --> 00:36:39.250
you need are, so we have these requirements.

00:36:39.349 --> 00:36:42.329
We need urgency and focus to trigger plasticity.

00:36:42.389 --> 00:36:44.449
Right. That's one part of the process. I haven't

00:36:44.449 --> 00:36:47.559
mentioned the second part yet. Neuroplasticity

00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:49.780
is triggered when urgency and focus combine.

00:36:50.980 --> 00:36:53.159
Acetylcholine is released for the aficionados

00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:55.300
out there. It's called the nucleus basalis, but

00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:56.940
that doesn't matter. There's a little compartment

00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:58.599
of neurons in the base of your forebrain that

00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:00.860
doesn't like to release acetylcholine on a regular

00:37:00.860 --> 00:37:03.880
basis. It's greedy. It's greedy. And it doesn't

00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:05.880
want to use that. With your child, it'll rain

00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:08.340
your brain with acetylcholine. But as an adult,

00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:12.320
30, 40, up to 80. Why is that? Because... You

00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.360
know, Mother Nature designed us to learn what

00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:16.179
we need to learn and then do that, reproduce

00:37:16.179 --> 00:37:19.840
and die. I mean, not to be, you know, dark about

00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.360
it. But I would say evolution is not about us.

00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.460
It's about the offspring. Yes. 100%. And then

00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:27.119
it's not even about them. It's about their offspring.

00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:29.340
Exactly. It never ends. We are being manipulated

00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:32.260
from the inside. Yes. I mean, that's what, you

00:37:32.260 --> 00:37:33.940
know, kind of drew me in neurobiology is that

00:37:33.940 --> 00:37:35.800
all these complex things you see in the world,

00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:41.570
it's all internal. If you get urgency, it can

00:37:41.570 --> 00:37:44.670
come from – let's use David as a – he's a shining

00:37:44.670 --> 00:37:46.530
example of this, right? You can sit there and

00:37:46.530 --> 00:37:50.489
just ramp up your level of urgency through purely

00:37:50.489 --> 00:37:53.340
psychological means. You could – Take an ice

00:37:53.340 --> 00:37:55.239
bath. You could do high -intensity breathing,

00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:57.340
anything that brings your level of alertness

00:37:57.340 --> 00:38:00.300
up. Can I ask you this? If you were going to

00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:03.119
try to improve your ability to get better at

00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:05.719
something, when would you use that ice bath or

00:38:05.719 --> 00:38:08.199
the cryotherapy? Would you use it before? Would

00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:10.460
you use it afterwards? Definitely before. Before.

00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:13.559
What we're talking about is a two -part process.

00:38:13.619 --> 00:38:16.019
The first part is the learning trigger. The learning

00:38:16.019 --> 00:38:18.519
trigger is gated by two things, adrenaline, which

00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:21.849
is also norepinephrine, same thing. and acetylcholine.

00:38:21.969 --> 00:38:24.769
And so you need that level of alertness up and

00:38:24.769 --> 00:38:28.449
you need acetylcholine released at the location

00:38:28.449 --> 00:38:30.769
in the brain that corresponds to what you're

00:38:30.769 --> 00:38:33.489
trying to learn. So things like supplements and

00:38:33.489 --> 00:38:36.150
certain nutrition regimens can assist the process

00:38:36.150 --> 00:38:38.230
for sure. There's no question about that. Things

00:38:38.230 --> 00:38:41.119
like... Alpha -GPC, caffeine will bring up the

00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:42.840
adrenaline and kind of anything to raise that

00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.239
alertness. Doesn't nicotine as well? Nicotine

00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:49.340
has some sort of a nootropic benefit to it. Not

00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:51.340
encouraging people to smoke, but, you know, you

00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:53.199
can take it in various forms, particularly gum.

00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:57.380
I know people take it in gum just for the nootropic

00:38:57.380 --> 00:38:59.719
benefit of it. Yeah, I'm not encouraging people

00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.179
to take anything. But there's a very, very famous

00:39:02.179 --> 00:39:06.239
Nobel Prize winning neuroscientist who I went

00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:08.670
to his office to visit him in New York. chewed

00:39:08.670 --> 00:39:10.489
seven pieces of Nicorette during that half hour

00:39:10.489 --> 00:39:12.269
meeting. And I was like, what is going on here?

00:39:12.349 --> 00:39:13.809
And he said, well, first of all, it increases

00:39:13.809 --> 00:39:17.050
plasticity. And second of all, he has the belief,

00:39:17.130 --> 00:39:18.969
and this is not a clinical study, but he thinks

00:39:18.969 --> 00:39:21.809
that it can also hold off certain forms of Parkinson's

00:39:21.809 --> 00:39:24.590
and Alzheimer's. Didn't Bertrand Russell, wasn't

00:39:24.590 --> 00:39:26.730
he like a famous smoker? Like it wouldn't even,

00:39:26.789 --> 00:39:29.289
I don't know. I think he wouldn't even go on

00:39:29.289 --> 00:39:32.389
a plane unless there was a smoking section because

00:39:32.389 --> 00:39:34.929
he couldn't imagine not having his pipe. for

00:39:34.929 --> 00:39:37.190
a certain amount of time. Well, creatives, you

00:39:37.190 --> 00:39:38.849
know, when I think when smoking became less in

00:39:38.849 --> 00:39:40.670
vogue, I think creatives really suffered because

00:39:40.670 --> 00:39:43.750
it's very clear that, so Nicorette is nicotine

00:39:43.750 --> 00:39:47.409
and the acetylcholine binds to the nicotinic

00:39:47.409 --> 00:39:51.050
receptor. So when you take nicotine in cigarette

00:39:51.050 --> 00:39:53.670
form or in Nicorette form, you're actually increasing

00:39:53.670 --> 00:39:55.650
the release of acetyl, the action of acetylcholine

00:39:55.650 --> 00:39:58.030
in the brain. Yeah, I don't smoke cigarettes,

00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:01.030
but I have. And the only time I have is before

00:40:01.030 --> 00:40:03.070
shows because I have friends that are comedians

00:40:03.070 --> 00:40:04.630
that would smoke. And I'd be like, give me one

00:40:04.630 --> 00:40:06.530
of them things. Let me see what's going on. And

00:40:06.530 --> 00:40:08.309
I smoked. I was like, whoa, dude, you get high

00:40:08.309 --> 00:40:10.530
off these things. This is crazy. Particularly

00:40:10.530 --> 00:40:13.650
if you don't smoke cigarettes, you get this really

00:40:13.650 --> 00:40:16.190
weird high. Well, your receptors have never seen

00:40:16.190 --> 00:40:18.710
that level of nicotine before. Right. They like

00:40:18.710 --> 00:40:21.389
that. It's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. And so for those

00:40:21.389 --> 00:40:25.309
moments, you know, your acetylcholine is like

00:40:25.309 --> 00:40:27.960
a spotlight. It brings your vision literally

00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:29.760
into this more kind of portrait mode where you

00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.019
can see more like a narrow window of what's going

00:40:33.019 --> 00:40:35.619
on. There are behavioral ways to access this,

00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:37.719
too. Before a fight, you know, somebody is really

00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:39.679
ramped up. Their world is not they're not seeing

00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:41.300
everything. They're probably I've never done

00:40:41.300 --> 00:40:42.800
the walk, of course, but probably walking out

00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:44.920
to the octagon. They're not seeing all the the

00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:46.380
color of the hat of the woman in the corner.

00:40:46.539 --> 00:40:48.320
You know, they're not relaxed. They're hyped

00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:52.840
up. But that's a trigger for plasticity. Because

00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:56.360
the brain needs some way to cue this plasticity

00:40:56.360 --> 00:40:58.760
process to let itself know, because it's a self

00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:01.440
-learning organ, let itself know that something's

00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.300
really different. That's adrenaline. Something's

00:41:03.300 --> 00:41:06.119
changed. Then there's focus. What's changed?

00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:09.480
So in the jujitsu example you gave earlier, it's

00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.760
the ability to focus on what the sequence is,

00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:14.500
what happens when, and okay, I did that correctly

00:41:14.500 --> 00:41:16.219
or I didn't do that correctly, but that's duration,

00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:19.099
path, and outcome again. And having acetylcholine

00:41:19.099 --> 00:41:22.710
and noradrenaline up, That sets the plasticity

00:41:22.710 --> 00:41:25.690
trigger. However, that doesn't guarantee that

00:41:25.690 --> 00:41:27.389
those synapses are going to change. It does not

00:41:27.389 --> 00:41:28.969
mean that you're necessarily going to learn.

00:41:29.090 --> 00:41:32.809
Oh, no. What guarantees that that process will

00:41:32.809 --> 00:41:35.070
be converted into literally the change in the

00:41:35.070 --> 00:41:37.309
connections between neurons, sometimes new neurons,

00:41:37.369 --> 00:41:39.150
but mostly the change in the strength of the

00:41:39.150 --> 00:41:41.070
connection so that eventually you don't have

00:41:41.070 --> 00:41:43.449
to do duration path outcome. You can just be

00:41:43.449 --> 00:41:48.190
reflexive about it is states of deep sleep. and

00:41:48.190 --> 00:41:50.969
any state where you're not doing duration path

00:41:50.969 --> 00:41:54.309
outcome. So we know from two recent studies,

00:41:54.469 --> 00:41:56.949
some of this was done by my lab, but by other

00:41:56.949 --> 00:41:59.570
labs as well in humans, which I think is important

00:41:59.570 --> 00:42:01.349
to distinguish between mouse and human where

00:42:01.349 --> 00:42:06.070
we can. A lot of the changes in these brain structures

00:42:06.070 --> 00:42:09.050
occurs after learning during deep sleep, in particular,

00:42:09.050 --> 00:42:12.690
slow wave sleep. But it also occurs during periods

00:42:12.690 --> 00:42:15.849
of naps and shallow sleep or even just periods

00:42:15.849 --> 00:42:17.969
where people deliberately decompress, where they're

00:42:17.969 --> 00:42:20.429
not focusing on any one thing in particular.

00:42:20.710 --> 00:42:24.590
So if we were going to kind of operationalize

00:42:24.590 --> 00:42:27.570
this process, it would be focus intensely, have

00:42:27.570 --> 00:42:30.429
an intense period of urgency, and then access

00:42:30.429 --> 00:42:33.289
the deepest rest you can where you're not thinking

00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:35.309
about anything, where space and time becomes

00:42:35.309 --> 00:42:39.829
very fluid. So stress in that case post. exercise

00:42:39.829 --> 00:42:44.090
or learning session would actually hinder your

00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:46.929
ability to grow and get better absolutely and

00:42:46.929 --> 00:42:50.150
elite performers like elite military elite athletes

00:42:50.150 --> 00:42:52.710
i'm sure you're familiar with this they understand

00:42:52.710 --> 00:42:55.389
that the ability to toggle back and forth between

00:42:55.389 --> 00:42:57.989
these high alert high attentional states and

00:42:57.989 --> 00:43:00.630
deep rest is not just the key to performing what

00:43:00.630 --> 00:43:03.289
you can already What you can already do. It's

00:43:03.289 --> 00:43:05.929
also the ability to get better over time. You

00:43:05.929 --> 00:43:08.369
know, I think Goggins, again, is such a remarkable

00:43:08.369 --> 00:43:10.889
example because it seems like it's all gas pedal.

00:43:11.110 --> 00:43:13.190
But I'm guessing, I've never asked him about

00:43:13.190 --> 00:43:15.389
this, but I'm guessing that he has his ways of

00:43:15.389 --> 00:43:18.429
recovering so that he can remain in that heavy

00:43:18.429 --> 00:43:20.949
gas pedal all, you know, significant amount of

00:43:20.949 --> 00:43:24.590
the day all the time. I don't know about that.

00:43:25.570 --> 00:43:27.730
Maybe he's just all gas pedal. I think he's all

00:43:27.730 --> 00:43:30.429
gas pedal. Could be. I mean, he eats well. I

00:43:30.429 --> 00:43:33.349
mean, you know, he does sleep, but he prides

00:43:33.349 --> 00:43:36.289
himself on his ability to just go, let's go,

00:43:36.369 --> 00:43:38.869
motherfucker, and just force himself to do it.

00:43:38.969 --> 00:43:41.510
It's so impressive because, you know, I think

00:43:41.510 --> 00:43:44.110
most everybody struggles to try and get themselves

00:43:44.110 --> 00:43:47.110
in action. I mean, we know that actions are the

00:43:47.110 --> 00:43:49.380
key to neuroplasticity. I mean, yeah, you can

00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:51.019
do some mental training and that can be powerful.

00:43:51.179 --> 00:43:53.099
You can do meditation. You can learn to access

00:43:53.099 --> 00:43:55.400
sleep and all that stuff. But ultimately, to

00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:58.219
get better at anything, you got to get your reps

00:43:58.219 --> 00:44:00.239
in, whatever that is, neurosurgery or running.

00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.019
That's interesting you say that because that's

00:44:02.019 --> 00:44:03.920
what he does with his mind. He's getting his

00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:06.860
reps in and he describes it. He calls it armoring

00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:09.659
your mind. You have to armor your mind. And,

00:44:09.739 --> 00:44:12.440
you know, like he told the story once about being

00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.860
on a plane. Some football player said, you know,

00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:20.280
how do you keep that dog alive inside of you?

00:44:20.619 --> 00:44:22.960
And he goes, it is like a dog. He goes, my fucking

00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:25.619
dog, if I feed my dog, and I feed him again,

00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:27.679
that motherfucker's always hungry. He goes, he's

00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:29.480
always hungry. He's never not hungry. He's like,

00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:31.659
you've got to be that dog. You've got to always

00:44:31.659 --> 00:44:34.840
be there. So he's always there. And this doesn't

00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:37.119
mean he's not a pleasant guy. I love the guy.

00:44:37.300 --> 00:44:39.280
I love hanging out with him. He's great. He's

00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:41.869
great to have dinner with. He's fun. He's a good

00:44:41.869 --> 00:44:43.989
guy to be around. He's not like an asshole or

00:44:43.989 --> 00:44:47.949
anything. He's fun. But when it's go time, he's

00:44:47.949 --> 00:44:51.730
fucking ready. He's David. David Goggins, all

00:44:51.730 --> 00:44:54.309
the time, 24 -7, ready to go. Wake him up four

00:44:54.309 --> 00:44:56.010
in the morning, time to run. Let's go, motherfucker.

00:44:56.429 --> 00:44:59.289
You know, stay hard. That's what he does, like

00:44:59.289 --> 00:45:01.869
all day long. He is every bit as intense as that

00:45:01.869 --> 00:45:04.010
public persona. When he came out to the lab,

00:45:04.070 --> 00:45:05.409
it was kind of interesting because we just built

00:45:05.409 --> 00:45:07.949
this great white shark experience. And I'd gone

00:45:07.949 --> 00:45:09.849
down to Mexico. We had dealt with these sharks.

00:45:09.949 --> 00:45:11.489
And my friend Michael Muller, he's got this whole

00:45:11.489 --> 00:45:13.289
thing where we could leave the cages. And we

00:45:13.289 --> 00:45:15.849
did all this. And it was fun and crazy and probably

00:45:15.849 --> 00:45:17.809
a little stupid, frankly. But we bring it back.

00:45:17.849 --> 00:45:20.250
We build this VR stimulus. And he and a couple

00:45:20.250 --> 00:45:24.309
other team guys came in. And, you know, so I'm

00:45:24.309 --> 00:45:26.269
explaining what we're doing and we show the shark

00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:29.110
thing on the screen. And he goes, I don't like

00:45:29.110 --> 00:45:32.829
sharks. And I'm thinking, OK, so we'll give him

00:45:32.829 --> 00:45:34.309
something else. And then we go through the whole

00:45:34.309 --> 00:45:36.110
thing and I'm explaining how we wire people in

00:45:36.110 --> 00:45:38.210
and we record from the brain. And I said, all

00:45:38.210 --> 00:45:41.329
right, so who would like to try the sharks? David,

00:45:41.409 --> 00:45:44.090
I'll go. Like just he just wanted to be first.

00:45:44.250 --> 00:45:46.690
And I realized I was like, OK, he wasn't showboating.

00:45:46.940 --> 00:45:48.920
That's just the way he is. It's just if there's

00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:50.699
something that creates that sense of agitation,

00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.320
that's a signal for him to go forward. Do you

00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:55.179
know what he does in the summers? I don't. He

00:45:55.179 --> 00:45:57.900
goes to Montana to fight forest fires. Does he

00:45:57.900 --> 00:45:59.360
really? Yeah, he doesn't even make any money.

00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:02.559
Amazing. He just goes there. He's rich, and he

00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:06.500
gets fucking dropped off in Montana in the woods,

00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:10.079
camps out there, and fights forest fires. With

00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:11.860
a bunch of other savages, and he does it to keep

00:46:11.860 --> 00:46:15.059
his brain hard. That's fantastic. He's the real

00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:17.500
deal. He is the real deal. Can you imagine? You've

00:46:17.500 --> 00:46:19.159
got millions of dollars in the bank, and you're

00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:20.900
like, I'm going to go fight forest fires all

00:46:20.900 --> 00:46:25.480
summer just to stay hard. Yeah. Maybe I would

00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:26.980
have done that when I was a teenager to impress

00:46:26.980 --> 00:46:29.360
girls, but I don't think— Bro, he's 40. He's

00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:31.539
doing it for him. He doesn't give a fuck. Well,

00:46:31.539 --> 00:46:33.480
that's the thing is I think that authenticity

00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:37.579
is a real thing. I mean, there is a kind of a—

00:46:38.170 --> 00:46:41.769
Third, there is a secret sauce in this whole

00:46:41.769 --> 00:46:44.269
mix. And this is kind of what brought me to my

00:46:44.269 --> 00:46:46.949
lab. We do work with typical people, but we also

00:46:46.949 --> 00:46:49.449
do some work with people from David's former

00:46:49.449 --> 00:46:51.989
community and domestic and foreign special operations

00:46:51.989 --> 00:46:53.909
who are interested in this process for obvious

00:46:53.909 --> 00:46:56.250
reasons. How can you leverage the nervous system

00:46:56.250 --> 00:46:59.829
to build better, longer -lasting warriors? It's

00:46:59.829 --> 00:47:01.880
a really interesting question. And you could

00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:03.559
do that with brain machine interface. You could

00:47:03.559 --> 00:47:05.579
do that with you can imagine doing that with

00:47:05.579 --> 00:47:07.980
drugs or with, you know, supplementation or nutrition,

00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:10.860
all of that. But since the nervous system sits

00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:14.300
at the foundation of any of those, we start to

00:47:14.300 --> 00:47:16.599
think about this problem. And there's actually

00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:19.039
another element to it, which is the reward pathways

00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:21.880
involving dopamine. So you asked about kids,

00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.960
like why they can learn all day long. So their

00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:27.440
brain is very different, but it still needs some

00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:29.199
degree of focus and they still need to get their

00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:32.650
sleep. They still have to. obey those two rules

00:47:32.650 --> 00:47:35.750
of this process but they engage in something

00:47:35.750 --> 00:47:39.269
else which is really powerful which is play a

00:47:39.269 --> 00:47:41.750
lot of their learning is through playful exchange

00:47:41.750 --> 00:47:43.730
especially with the little kids like in kindergarten

00:47:43.730 --> 00:47:46.489
and nursery school and then as they get older

00:47:46.489 --> 00:47:48.329
the social dynamics can be kind of harsh but

00:47:48.329 --> 00:47:51.090
they can also be really pleasurable and fun so

00:47:51.090 --> 00:47:54.030
the molecule dopamine is a really misunderstood

00:47:54.030 --> 00:47:56.849
molecule we all make it from a location in the

00:47:56.849 --> 00:47:59.590
back of our brain And people think of it as like

00:47:59.590 --> 00:48:02.030
reward, like, oh, I got a bunch of money or I

00:48:02.030 --> 00:48:04.969
did a great performance. Dopamine is responsible

00:48:04.969 --> 00:48:08.349
for that feeling of feeling great. But in addition,

00:48:08.570 --> 00:48:11.829
dopamine is what's released any time an animal

00:48:11.829 --> 00:48:15.170
or human thinks it's on the right path. And that's

00:48:15.170 --> 00:48:18.929
very subjective. So this is not and I want to

00:48:18.929 --> 00:48:21.679
be really clear that this is not. positive thinking

00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:23.920
or, you know, the secret or telling yourself

00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:25.440
that you're performing well, even when you're

00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.679
not. Right. Like if you are a rioter and you

00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:29.880
break into a courthouse, but you feel like you're

00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:31.380
on the right path, you're going to get a release

00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:33.360
of dopamine. Heavy release of dopamine. Yeah.

00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:35.519
Even if you're committing a crime and you really

00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:37.420
probably shouldn't be doing that. Yeah. Mother

00:48:37.420 --> 00:48:39.880
Nature built these systems, adrenaline, acetylcholine,

00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:42.659
dopamine, to be very generic in terms of what

00:48:42.659 --> 00:48:45.179
can activate them on purpose. You know, cocaine

00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:47.469
will cause a tremendous release of dopamine.

00:48:47.570 --> 00:48:50.489
So will methamphetamine. The problem is it sets

00:48:50.489 --> 00:48:52.969
a focus on just getting more of that thing. Right.

00:48:53.289 --> 00:48:58.389
So dopamine is evoked through play. It's evoked

00:48:58.389 --> 00:49:00.869
through humor, right? If you've ever just been

00:49:00.869 --> 00:49:03.670
working like mad or you see this in, you know,

00:49:03.690 --> 00:49:05.690
team guys know this really well that, you know,

00:49:05.690 --> 00:49:07.889
because they tell me that you can be in the worst

00:49:07.889 --> 00:49:10.550
situation and somebody will crack a joke. And

00:49:10.550 --> 00:49:13.920
all of a sudden it's like. You have energy. Now,

00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:15.500
that couldn't have been glycogen. That wasn't

00:49:15.500 --> 00:49:17.179
because you're ketogenic. It wasn't because you're

00:49:17.179 --> 00:49:20.780
whatever. That's neural energy. And that neural

00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:23.679
energy is dopamine. Is that what happens when

00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:25.940
you hear a great song and you get pumped up?

00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:28.699
Is that the same thing? Absolutely. And the reason

00:49:28.699 --> 00:49:31.420
dopamine is so powerful in this process of neural

00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:34.480
plasticity is that dopamine has the ability to

00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:38.039
buffer noradrenaline. So that stress that you

00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:40.570
feel when you're in effort. It's very hard for

00:49:40.570 --> 00:49:43.329
most people to keep that going. But when you

00:49:43.329 --> 00:49:46.289
get a, when I say a shot, I mean, internal release

00:49:46.289 --> 00:49:48.650
of dopamine through humor or through the sense

00:49:48.650 --> 00:49:50.150
that you're on the right path. Let's take the

00:49:50.150 --> 00:49:52.409
fight example where it's stressful and you're

00:49:52.409 --> 00:49:54.269
getting beaten down. All of a sudden you land

00:49:54.269 --> 00:49:55.929
one or you do something properly and the other

00:49:55.929 --> 00:49:58.090
guy starts to timber a little bit or shuffle

00:49:58.090 --> 00:50:01.730
a little bit. You gain a chemical advantage and

00:50:01.730 --> 00:50:05.400
it comes in two forms. One is it triggers. marking

00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:07.480
of the synapses that likely will change later.

00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:09.679
We rarely forget the events associated with dopamine

00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:13.199
for that reason, because they signal, oh, whatever's

00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.519
happening now, that was good. And in addition

00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:18.239
to that, they start pushing back on the level

00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:20.920
of acetylcholine, excuse me, noradrenaline in

00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:24.679
the brainstem. And this is crucial because there

00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:27.559
was a study that came out two years ago, not

00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:30.880
from my group, that asked, why do we quit? If

00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:33.679
you set 800 or even 500 pounds on the bar out

00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:35.239
there, I can't lift it. So I'm not talking about

00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:37.039
that kind of quitting. I'm talking about a long

00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:39.579
run. Why do I quit? If I'm not injured, like

00:50:39.579 --> 00:50:42.460
what actually causes quitting? When do we decide

00:50:42.460 --> 00:50:45.179
that something is futile? And it turns out that

00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:47.820
for every bit of effort, any bit of effort, lifting

00:50:47.820 --> 00:50:50.199
a glass of water or running up a hill or in a

00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:53.380
fight, there are little bits of noradrenaline,

00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:54.920
adrenaline that are released in the brain and

00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:57.280
body. And there's a counter. There's a cell type,

00:50:57.340 --> 00:50:59.210
which are called glia. which literally means

00:50:59.210 --> 00:51:01.309
glue in Latin. These cells are paying attention

00:51:01.309 --> 00:51:04.090
to how much norepinephrine is coming. And if

00:51:04.090 --> 00:51:06.710
it hits a certain threshold, the brain stops

00:51:06.710 --> 00:51:09.230
voluntary control over the musculature. It says,

00:51:09.309 --> 00:51:11.190
that's it, I quit. And there are these beautiful

00:51:11.190 --> 00:51:13.849
experiments where they manipulate the visual

00:51:13.849 --> 00:51:16.570
environment so that this isn't, they're certain

00:51:16.570 --> 00:51:20.550
that this isn't lack of muscle fuel or liver

00:51:20.550 --> 00:51:25.250
fuel. This is lack of neural fuel. Dopamine pushes

00:51:25.250 --> 00:51:28.239
back that level of noradrenaline. And it gives

00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:31.119
you more gas. It lets you go further. And you

00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:33.119
see this through teamwork, when you feel like

00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.980
you're supported, when you're in cohesion, humor,

00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:39.900
play. If you're in serious effort and it's just

00:51:39.900 --> 00:51:41.880
things are going terribly, maybe I've never done

00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:43.380
comedy, but you're trying to write a joke and

00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:44.559
it's just frustrating. And then suddenly you

00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:46.519
just kind of laugh at how ridiculous the process

00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:48.940
is. There's a kind of loosening or a lightning

00:51:48.940 --> 00:51:52.719
and you have more energy. That energy is reductions

00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:56.619
in epinephrine. And so - I don't know how David

00:51:56.619 --> 00:51:58.880
Goggins has done it, but everyone does this a

00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:00.619
little bit differently. But it could be, and

00:52:00.619 --> 00:52:02.239
I'm speculating here, of course, never done the

00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:05.239
neurology, but that David has somehow figured

00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:08.059
out that the leaning in process for him is the

00:52:08.059 --> 00:52:10.579
dopamine trigger. Like there is a kind of sicko

00:52:10.579 --> 00:52:12.480
thing about the way he talks about it. Like it's

00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:16.820
like a it's a little bit masochistic. And for

00:52:16.820 --> 00:52:18.920
him, maybe it was that way. And it's rooted in

00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:22.260
his origin story. For other people, they find

00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:24.340
this in purpose, like that you're doing this.

00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:26.579
for your kids or you're doing this for somebody

00:52:26.579 --> 00:52:29.760
else you know i think that the human animal has

00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:32.659
a capacity to to push has a capacity to focus

00:52:32.659 --> 00:52:35.300
has a capacity to learn at all ages but these

00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:39.239
gates on plasticity are set by certain requirements

00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:41.699
and You know, when I look out there and I see

00:52:41.699 --> 00:52:44.179
all the stuff about, you know, psychology and

00:52:44.179 --> 00:52:46.420
all the self -help and wellness stuff. You know,

00:52:46.460 --> 00:52:48.079
I'm a neuroscientist, so I look at the lens of

00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:49.460
everything through neurochemicals and neuroscience.

00:52:49.699 --> 00:52:51.500
But it all kind of boils down to a couple basic

00:52:51.500 --> 00:52:54.320
chemicals and systems or what we call circuits

00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:57.239
in the brain. What's the difference between noradrenaline

00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:59.880
and norepinephrine? Yeah, great question. So

00:52:59.880 --> 00:53:04.800
same thing. So adrenaline and norepinephrine,

00:53:04.820 --> 00:53:06.960
excuse me, adrenaline and epinephrine, same thing.

00:53:07.420 --> 00:53:10.039
Same thing. Norepinephrine and noradrenaline,

00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:12.340
those two things are the same thing. It was a

00:53:12.340 --> 00:53:14.940
naming war. So scientists are like, they have

00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:18.840
egos, some more than others. And there was a

00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:21.000
naming battle. And so if you go to Australia,

00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:22.639
they call it one thing. In England, they called

00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:24.420
it another. And basically it was two labs discovered

00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:26.940
the same thing and it was a pissing competition.

00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:29.639
Oh, well, how confusing for everybody else. Exactly.

00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:31.559
And you can find that over and over and over

00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:33.239
again in science because no one ever comes in

00:53:33.239 --> 00:53:35.159
with a gavel within like nomenclature committee

00:53:35.159 --> 00:53:37.599
and says, we're just going to call it this. Noradrenaline

00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:41.099
is so much easier to say. Stick with that. Norepinephrine,

00:53:41.179 --> 00:53:43.579
like I've fucked that up a hundred times. Well,

00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:45.460
and it gets worse because like you think about

00:53:45.460 --> 00:53:46.800
the autonomic nervous system and they're like

00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:48.860
sympathetic, parasympathetic. Sympathetic sounds

00:53:48.860 --> 00:53:51.360
like sympathy, but it's actually the stress state.

00:53:51.619 --> 00:53:54.480
Do you think that you would benefit from data

00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:59.519
from real world situations in a much more comprehensive

00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.659
way than you would from these virtual situations

00:54:02.659 --> 00:54:05.800
you're putting people in? You know, we have a

00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.760
VR thing out here. We have an Oculus, and it's

00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:11.099
pretty cool. There's one of them where you walk

00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:14.179
on a plank, and you really do feel like this

00:54:14.179 --> 00:54:17.119
plank is over, like it's on the 60th floor of

00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:19.360
a building, and it goes out a window. And you

00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:21.340
really do feel like you're kind of, but you know

00:54:21.340 --> 00:54:24.440
you're not. There's a difference. You get a little

00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:25.980
bit of it, but you don't get the real thing.

00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:30.840
Like being in the jungle and the leaves part

00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:33.099
and there's a real tiger in front of you. The

00:54:33.099 --> 00:54:35.219
feeling that you would get would probably be

00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:38.400
you probably wouldn't be able to recreate it

00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:40.659
with virtual reality. There's some part of your

00:54:40.659 --> 00:54:43.719
brain that knows this is bullshit. Yeah. So we

00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:45.940
have three laboratories to explore this. One

00:54:45.940 --> 00:54:48.619
is the virtual reality. And virtual reality can

00:54:48.619 --> 00:54:50.960
give you what? the scientists call presence,

00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:52.719
the sense that you're really in that environment.

00:54:52.820 --> 00:54:54.960
And that's mainly visually and auditory driven.

00:54:55.300 --> 00:54:57.539
My colleague, Jeremy Baylinson, who's on the,

00:54:57.559 --> 00:54:58.960
I'm in the medical campus. He's on the other

00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:01.340
campus. He's studied this a lot. Like what are

00:55:01.340 --> 00:55:03.219
the requirements for getting people to feel presence?

00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:05.639
So people who come to our lab, they don't think

00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:07.960
they're underwater with a shark unless they're

00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:09.920
afraid of great white sharks. And for that moment

00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:12.320
where one of these guys is coming in and it opens

00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:15.659
its jaws for that person, it's every bit as scary

00:55:15.659 --> 00:55:18.900
as the real experience. No way. If you look at

00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:20.179
their – well, we don't know because we don't

00:55:20.179 --> 00:55:22.739
put them in the water. I think – I just can't

00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:25.360
imagine. Well, here's the – It's probably close.

00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:28.139
I agree. I mean, here's the challenge. We needed

00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:32.039
to stress people, and we needed to do it really

00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:34.559
well for a lab. And if you look historically,

00:55:34.820 --> 00:55:37.440
the experiments that came before ours were really

00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:39.480
lame. It was like a picture of someone with a

00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:41.280
knife in their arm. For some people, that's gross.

00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:42.699
For some people, that's scary. But that's not

00:55:42.699 --> 00:55:45.039
really fear, right? Or they'd startle people.

00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:47.800
But I can jump out of – You know, probably not

00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:49.440
to you, but I could jump out in front of a typical

00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:51.219
person with a teddy bear and they'll get startled.

00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:52.760
Doesn't matter. It's a teddy bear. So that's

00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:56.000
different. That's not fear. So VR allows us to

00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:58.300
access states. The more sensory stuff that we

00:55:58.300 --> 00:56:00.179
can include, the better. There are some now that

00:56:00.179 --> 00:56:02.420
include smell. We have that. We're working with

00:56:02.420 --> 00:56:06.159
augmented reality. So which is a little bit like

00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:08.000
the Star Wars thing of projecting a chessboard,

00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:11.739
that kind of thing. We find people's. Pain points,

00:56:11.780 --> 00:56:13.559
meaning we find the places in which we can trigger

00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:16.039
their autonomic function. We also run studies

00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:18.860
outside the lab. So I have a large scale study

00:56:18.860 --> 00:56:21.440
running right now with David Spiegel, my colleague

00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:23.480
in psychiatry, where people are equipped with

00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:26.440
whoop bands. So we're monitoring sleep. We're

00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:28.500
going to. expand this to include some other devices

00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:30.980
that actually allow us to look at heart rate

00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:33.199
variability and body cavitation and some other

00:56:33.199 --> 00:56:35.179
things in some interesting ways but also body

00:56:35.179 --> 00:56:37.420
position so we're tracking them 24 hours a day

00:56:37.420 --> 00:56:40.300
and those people are reporting back to us levels

00:56:40.300 --> 00:56:42.880
of stress life events that kind of thing so this

00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:45.559
is outside the laboratory but we can do this

00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:48.619
in real world essentially and those people were

00:56:48.619 --> 00:56:51.699
using interventions which are mainly respiration

00:56:51.699 --> 00:56:55.010
based so which are looking at specific patterns

00:56:55.010 --> 00:56:57.929
of breathing that trigger particular states in

00:56:57.929 --> 00:57:00.710
the brainstem that allow people to either sleep

00:57:00.710 --> 00:57:03.989
better or buffer their stress in response to

00:57:03.989 --> 00:57:05.829
life events better. So this isn't really breath

00:57:05.829 --> 00:57:09.170
work as much as it is teaching them specific

00:57:09.170 --> 00:57:11.190
patterns of breathing that capture these neurons

00:57:11.190 --> 00:57:13.389
that switch their brain states. It really is

00:57:13.389 --> 00:57:15.969
fascinating that these periods of rest are crucial

00:57:15.969 --> 00:57:18.469
to learning and developing. They're absolutely

00:57:18.469 --> 00:57:22.239
crucial. They're every bit as... which are part

00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:25.139
of the process as the actual trigger event. And

00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:28.679
the athletes, the people, the high performers

00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:31.559
that I've encountered are all really good at

00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:35.980
accessing those states also. Is there a desirable

00:57:35.980 --> 00:57:40.460
ratio? Right. So you want to focus as long as

00:57:40.460 --> 00:57:43.079
you can focus well, and then probably a little

00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:45.639
bit longer because there's also plasticity of

00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:49.500
the circuits that control focus. So going back

00:57:49.500 --> 00:57:53.070
to your jujitsu example, And as you get to the

00:57:53.070 --> 00:57:54.909
point where you're starting to not be able to

00:57:54.909 --> 00:57:56.949
do this duration path outcome stuff, which involves

00:57:56.949 --> 00:57:58.610
motor movements and mental thinking, you're saying

00:57:58.610 --> 00:58:00.230
you're getting tired. You're literally going

00:58:00.230 --> 00:58:02.769
into a sort of sleep -like state where space

00:58:02.769 --> 00:58:04.769
and time duration path outcome becomes hard.

00:58:05.289 --> 00:58:08.409
What you can do at that point is to start buffering

00:58:08.409 --> 00:58:11.010
the noradrenaline, norepinephrine. Now, I don't

00:58:11.010 --> 00:58:12.409
know which one to say, but I'll just keep going

00:58:12.409 --> 00:58:16.409
with whichever is reflexive. And you can start

00:58:16.409 --> 00:58:19.380
to buffer that through things like. humor through

00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:21.820
things like setting the urgency higher. That

00:58:21.820 --> 00:58:24.199
is not a time to relax and taper out. That's

00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:26.699
a time to ratchet up the intensity if you want

00:58:26.699 --> 00:58:30.619
to grab a stronger trigger. But that period can't

00:58:30.619 --> 00:58:32.219
last infinitely. And the question is how long?

00:58:32.340 --> 00:58:35.320
Well, we know that you can do more short bouts

00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:37.539
of that each day than you could ever do one long,

00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:39.780
long bout. We know that. So you can maybe do

00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:41.760
two or three bouts of that a day, or if you are

00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:43.420
doing it several times a week, you basically

00:58:43.420 --> 00:58:46.039
want to dose it about twice as much as deep stress

00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:49.659
as you do the deep. focus, excuse me, deep sleep

00:58:49.659 --> 00:58:52.880
as you do the deep focus. So if you're, I don't

00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:54.500
know how long these training regimes go, but

00:58:54.500 --> 00:58:57.219
part of that training is reflexive for you. I

00:58:57.219 --> 00:58:59.280
wouldn't count that in the learning process because

00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:01.639
it's dialed into your nervous system. But at

00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:03.380
the point where it becomes challenging, a clock

00:59:03.380 --> 00:59:06.079
sort of starts. And when that period ends, I

00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:07.940
think at least double that amount of time of

00:59:07.940 --> 00:59:11.119
deep rest if you want to maximize learning. There's

00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:14.119
been a lot of work done on visualization and

00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:16.099
learning through visualization, and they found

00:59:16.099 --> 00:59:20.420
that you can get a similar benefit to actual

00:59:20.420 --> 00:59:22.780
physical training, obviously not with the endurance

00:59:22.780 --> 00:59:24.260
and the strength and all those other things,

00:59:24.300 --> 00:59:26.980
but in terms of skill learning. You get a similar

00:59:26.980 --> 00:59:30.900
benefit from an equal time of visualization.

00:59:31.340 --> 00:59:35.440
What do you attribute that to? How is visualization,

00:59:35.980 --> 00:59:39.019
how can you learn things through visualizing?

00:59:39.369 --> 00:59:41.929
So that's – visualizing is setting the brain

00:59:41.929 --> 00:59:45.070
through these duration path outcome circuitry

00:59:45.070 --> 00:59:48.130
loops. It's running the script essentially. And

00:59:48.130 --> 00:59:50.530
it's important to move the musculature. It's

00:59:50.530 --> 00:59:53.050
important to say the words if you're, say, learning

00:59:53.050 --> 00:59:55.530
a motor skill or learning a movement – a language,

00:59:55.590 --> 00:59:59.469
excuse me. But at some level, the brain doesn't

00:59:59.469 --> 01:00:01.550
really know what's going on in the body. It's

01:00:01.550 --> 01:00:03.530
the command center except what signals it receives

01:00:03.530 --> 01:00:06.130
back from the body. And so if the visualization

01:00:06.130 --> 01:00:09.360
is intense – The brain isn't completely convinced,

01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:11.900
but it's pretty convinced that you're actually

01:00:11.900 --> 01:00:14.139
experiencing that thing and rehearsing it. It's

01:00:14.139 --> 01:00:16.119
a little bit of your own internally driven virtual

01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:19.739
reality is what you're doing. And so I think

01:00:19.739 --> 01:00:24.159
mental training is powerful, but there's no replacement

01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:29.059
for repetition. So what about, obviously, physical

01:00:29.059 --> 01:00:32.340
training has its limitations in your body's ability

01:00:32.340 --> 01:00:34.059
to keep doing the movements. You're going to

01:00:34.059 --> 01:00:37.190
get tired and you're going to break down. Would

01:00:37.190 --> 01:00:42.610
it be more beneficial to get more rest or would

01:00:42.610 --> 01:00:48.269
it be more beneficial to get rest but also spend

01:00:48.269 --> 01:00:51.070
a significant amount of time visualizing? We

01:00:51.070 --> 01:00:52.909
haven't looked at visualization specifically.

01:00:53.369 --> 01:00:56.110
The one thing that is very close to visualization,

01:00:56.369 --> 01:00:59.130
which is very powerful, based on neuroimaging

01:00:59.130 --> 01:01:01.710
studies, so legitimate science, I should say,

01:01:01.829 --> 01:01:05.849
is hypnosis. Hypnosis is a really unique state.

01:01:06.170 --> 01:01:08.909
And this is of mind and body. Have you been hypnotized?

01:01:09.110 --> 01:01:12.230
Many times. Yeah. And I'm very interested in

01:01:12.230 --> 01:01:14.289
hypnosis because of the work with Spiegel and

01:01:14.289 --> 01:01:16.789
the incredible success that he's had with pain

01:01:16.789 --> 01:01:18.809
management, smoking cessation, these kinds of

01:01:18.809 --> 01:01:22.550
things. Hypnosis is a state of deep relaxation,

01:01:22.809 --> 01:01:27.659
not unlike sleep, but also deep focus. So it's

01:01:27.659 --> 01:01:30.619
very unlike any other state of mind. You're either

01:01:30.619 --> 01:01:33.239
usually asleep or you're focused or somewhere

01:01:33.239 --> 01:01:35.219
in between kind of drifting back and forth in

01:01:35.219 --> 01:01:38.760
between. But hypnosis is a deliberate narrowing

01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:41.369
of context. So the person or the audio script

01:01:41.369 --> 01:01:43.829
is bringing you into a state of mind that's centered

01:01:43.829 --> 01:01:46.269
around particular types of events, but you're

01:01:46.269 --> 01:01:49.050
in deep rest. And the idea is that you're taking

01:01:49.050 --> 01:01:51.429
that plasticity process of focus and urgency

01:01:51.429 --> 01:01:53.889
and then rest, and you're combining them into

01:01:53.889 --> 01:01:57.329
a single session. And so hypnosis and deep hypnotic

01:01:57.329 --> 01:02:00.590
states are the place where neuroplasticity can

01:02:00.590 --> 01:02:05.780
be accelerated. So when you say hypnosis, What

01:02:05.780 --> 01:02:08.239
kind of sessions are you talking about and how

01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:10.420
often? Like say if you're an athlete, like let's

01:02:10.420 --> 01:02:13.320
say maybe you're a basketball player and you

01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:15.739
want to get better at basketball. You train as

01:02:15.739 --> 01:02:18.139
much as you possibly can, but there's limitations

01:02:18.139 --> 01:02:20.179
to that. You sleep as much as you possibly can.

01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:22.880
How often would you recommend someone doing some

01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.960
sort of a hypnosis session to try to improve

01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:28.579
their skills? Probably one – well, it depends

01:02:28.579 --> 01:02:30.860
on how intense their training is. For some of

01:02:30.860 --> 01:02:33.739
the people – I'm doing work with in athletics

01:02:33.739 --> 01:02:37.659
and in the military community, they have extremely

01:02:37.659 --> 01:02:40.159
demanding lives, right? And certainly for the

01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:42.079
military folks, it's high risk, high consequence,

01:02:42.340 --> 01:02:46.760
even when they're in non -deployment. So under

01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:49.440
those conditions, maybe every day. 30. Hypnosis

01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:52.219
every day. Yeah. 30 to 45 minutes as a replacement

01:02:52.219 --> 01:02:54.820
for some other standard form of nap or meditation.

01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:57.099
I mean, not necessarily lumped on top of that.

01:02:57.239 --> 01:03:00.440
So the standard eight hour sleep and then on

01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:03.659
top of that, some sort of meditation for like

01:03:03.659 --> 01:03:07.800
30 minutes? Yeah. There's a process of doing

01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:09.880
this. We have a script that we use in our lab.

01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:11.159
I'd be happy to send it to you that takes you

01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:14.480
into these deep. sort of relaxation states. They're

01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:17.219
sort of meditative. Some people can self -hypnose

01:03:17.219 --> 01:03:19.400
by induced, you know, some people call them intentions,

01:03:19.539 --> 01:03:20.780
but I don't like that because it sounds a little

01:03:20.780 --> 01:03:22.960
bit too much like an uncomfortable set of yoga

01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:24.880
classes I've taken where they start with the

01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:26.940
whole, like I don't know really what that's about

01:03:26.940 --> 01:03:28.940
and they make you use complete declarative sentences.

01:03:29.039 --> 01:03:32.519
It feels weird to me. That's just my own bias.

01:03:33.380 --> 01:03:36.380
Oh, they mean they make you set your intentions

01:03:36.380 --> 01:03:37.800
for the class? Yeah, it's like I am this, this,

01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:40.179
and this. Ew. Do you say it out loud? Oh, no.

01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:41.769
No, no, no. That would sound weird. me out of

01:03:41.769 --> 01:03:45.670
the room or, you know, even though I said it

01:03:45.670 --> 01:03:48.570
like this, if they combine the upspeak, then

01:03:48.570 --> 01:03:52.190
I'd probably, yeah, then I'd, then I'd file a

01:03:52.190 --> 01:03:55.789
complaint. But, um, yeah, they even, sometimes

01:03:55.789 --> 01:03:57.530
it's really bad. Sometimes they even make you

01:03:57.530 --> 01:03:59.750
work a pronoun into it. So you'd have to say,

01:03:59.869 --> 01:04:02.769
Joe, you know, anytime someone's trying to have

01:04:02.769 --> 01:04:05.869
a fake pronoun, like one of the new ones, that's,

01:04:05.869 --> 01:04:09.699
that's it. I don't know. You might. I don't even

01:04:09.699 --> 01:04:13.320
know how to go there. You stunned me. Probably

01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:15.559
we're all going to be required to at some point.

01:04:16.460 --> 01:04:21.179
Maybe not. Maybe not. Hypnosis is powerful, and

01:04:21.179 --> 01:04:24.239
I think stage hypnosis has done a great disservice.

01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:26.820
No disrespect to the stage hypnotist out there

01:04:26.820 --> 01:04:30.000
to detract from the power of hypnosis as a medical

01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:32.980
tool and a high performance tool. Yeah, my own

01:04:32.980 --> 01:04:35.519
personal experience is that I didn't understand

01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:38.940
what hypnosis was. My first experiences with

01:04:38.940 --> 01:04:41.079
hypnosis were there was a guy named Frank Santos.

01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:43.960
It's a famous in the Boston area. He's a very

01:04:43.960 --> 01:04:47.099
famous. comedy hypnotist and he was an actual

01:04:47.099 --> 01:04:49.360
hypnotist would hypnotize people and get them

01:04:49.360 --> 01:04:51.159
to quit smoking and things along those lines

01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:54.199
but then would do this comedy hypnotism show

01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:58.099
where he would get people on stage and man like

01:04:58.099 --> 01:05:00.719
we would me and a bunch of other comedians would

01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:02.659
go and watch it every week because it was crazy

01:05:02.659 --> 01:05:05.000
he would Put them under. They would definitely

01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:06.420
be under. And they would think they were having

01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:08.679
sex. They would think they would be in a boat.

01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:11.599
They'd think they'd be in the water. It was weird.

01:05:11.780 --> 01:05:14.139
It was really weird to watch. And I always just

01:05:14.139 --> 01:05:16.159
thought it was, like, really weak -minded people.

01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:19.320
My thought was, and obviously I'm 21 at the time.

01:05:19.360 --> 01:05:20.960
I didn't know anything. But my thought at the

01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:22.800
time was, okay, there's certain people that are

01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:24.980
just, they have nine -volt brains, and you can

01:05:24.980 --> 01:05:26.539
trick them into doing anything. And that explains

01:05:26.539 --> 01:05:29.679
cults and a lot of other shit and televangelists

01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:32.880
and all sorts of nonsense that should be, like,

01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:34.849
really. obviously fake to people, but they fall

01:05:34.849 --> 01:05:36.989
into it anyway. And so that's what I thought.

01:05:37.030 --> 01:05:38.469
I thought it was just really dumb people that

01:05:38.469 --> 01:05:40.409
he was tricking. Well, some people are more easily

01:05:40.409 --> 01:05:43.210
hypnotized than others. And it's actually pretty

01:05:43.210 --> 01:05:44.630
predictable. There's actually a test that we

01:05:44.630 --> 01:05:47.570
could do right now. Really? Yeah. Can you do

01:05:47.570 --> 01:05:50.329
it to me? Yeah, I can use the one that Spiegel

01:05:50.329 --> 01:05:52.969
taught me. So you look up at the ceiling and

01:05:52.969 --> 01:05:55.090
you're going to look and now close your eyelids.

01:05:55.789 --> 01:05:58.489
You're not very hypnotizable. How's that? Look

01:05:58.489 --> 01:06:02.170
up one more time and then close. Yeah. So probably

01:06:02.170 --> 01:06:05.030
not as hypnotizable. Why? So for people that

01:06:05.030 --> 01:06:08.250
are very hypnotizable. Is that a word? Yes, it

01:06:08.250 --> 01:06:10.690
is. Hypnotizable. At least if it's not, then

01:06:10.690 --> 01:06:13.510
I'm stamping it in. Nowadays, I just I'll put

01:06:13.510 --> 01:06:15.570
a Wikipedia entry. It'll be there. But no, I

01:06:15.570 --> 01:06:17.550
don't know. I've heard Spiegel use it before.

01:06:17.670 --> 01:06:19.869
Susceptible to hypnosis. Susceptible to hypnosis.

01:06:20.829 --> 01:06:25.469
I asked Spiegel how you measure this kind of

01:06:25.469 --> 01:06:27.550
back of the envelope, you know, curbside consult,

01:06:27.710 --> 01:06:30.860
as they call it. People who are more hypnotizable,

01:06:30.920 --> 01:06:33.260
their eyelids will flutter in an attempt to go

01:06:33.260 --> 01:06:38.380
down. The reason is that a lot of hypnosis is

01:06:38.380 --> 01:06:40.559
anchored on the ability to go into these deeply

01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:43.960
relaxed states. And some people's autonomic nervous

01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:48.320
system gets locked in a state of more, excuse

01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:53.400
me, of more attention and kind of higher levels

01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:56.719
of alertness or levels of sleepiness. So think

01:06:56.719 --> 01:06:58.840
about like a seesaw. So you can either be really

01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:00.519
stressed. So when you're really stressed, like

01:07:00.519 --> 01:07:02.460
you're analyzing time, you're analyzing space

01:07:02.460 --> 01:07:04.480
differently, duration path outcome, what's going

01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:06.539
to happen? When's it going to happen? Real emergency.

01:07:06.780 --> 01:07:08.719
The other state would be sleep, right? That's

01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:10.920
the other extreme duration path and outcome are

01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:12.539
essentially non -existent space and time are

01:07:12.539 --> 01:07:16.920
fluid, whatever. The hinge in the middle of that

01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:19.059
seesaw for some people is very tight. They get

01:07:19.059 --> 01:07:21.800
locked over here or locked over there. They can't

01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:25.519
get the energy or they can't de -stress. Hypnosis

01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:27.820
involves taking somebody from a state of alertness

01:07:27.820 --> 01:07:30.519
like you and I are in now and bringing them into

01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:34.199
a almost sleep -like state. Now, for some people,

01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:37.000
their autonomic nervous system isn't that willing

01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:39.039
to do that. It's almost like the hinge on that

01:07:39.039 --> 01:07:42.380
seesaw is locked. It doesn't want to budge. And

01:07:42.380 --> 01:07:45.099
this fluttering of the eyelids. is reflective

01:07:45.099 --> 01:07:47.280
of a peripheral nerve, believe it or not, that

01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:51.159
originates in the brainstem. That's a central

01:07:51.159 --> 01:07:54.380
part of the autonomic nervous system. The other

01:07:54.380 --> 01:07:56.059
thing that they'll do, you ever see on the stage

01:07:56.059 --> 01:07:58.219
hypnosis where they'll have people look up at

01:07:58.219 --> 01:07:59.820
the ceiling and then they'll sometimes shine

01:07:59.820 --> 01:08:01.619
a light in their eyes or they'll like have them

01:08:01.619 --> 01:08:03.260
look at a light. I haven't seen that. They're

01:08:03.260 --> 01:08:06.960
looking at how we call it labile, but how rigid

01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:10.579
or... labile, how willing to move the pupils

01:08:10.579 --> 01:08:14.219
are because autonomic arousal impacts the pupils

01:08:14.219 --> 01:08:16.180
of the eye. So it's an external read of what's

01:08:16.180 --> 01:08:18.000
going on in the brain. A lot of people don't

01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:20.439
know this, but your eyes are not connected to

01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:24.199
your brain. Your eyes are brain. They are central

01:08:24.199 --> 01:08:26.640
nervous system and their brain, your neural retinas

01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:29.399
that you use for seeing things around you are.

01:08:30.329 --> 01:08:33.250
part of the central nervous system they are the

01:08:33.250 --> 01:08:34.829
way that you know when to be alert and to be

01:08:34.829 --> 01:08:37.250
asleep and they are two pieces of brain that

01:08:37.250 --> 01:08:39.430
during development got squeezed out of the skull

01:08:39.430 --> 01:08:42.430
and placed outside the skull whoa yeah they're

01:08:42.430 --> 01:08:44.250
the only two pieces of your brain that are outside

01:08:44.250 --> 01:08:45.890
your skull assuming that you don't have some

01:08:45.890 --> 01:08:49.680
sort of damage That is fucking crazy. Your eyes

01:08:49.680 --> 01:08:52.020
are a part of your brain. Yeah. And that's why

01:08:52.020 --> 01:08:54.079
when people tell me, oh, you know, the eyes are

01:08:54.079 --> 01:08:55.520
the window to the soul. I'm like, well, look,

01:08:55.560 --> 01:08:57.619
I don't know about souls, but they are definitely

01:08:57.619 --> 01:09:00.800
your brain. So when I look at you and now it's

01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:02.140
weird because I'm looking at, you know, we're

01:09:02.140 --> 01:09:04.899
not looking at each other's pupils. Right. But

01:09:04.899 --> 01:09:06.560
when the hypnotist, I should say, looks at the

01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:09.159
pupils, they're saying, you know, the pupil size

01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:13.300
is a direct readout of. of how loose that hinge

01:09:13.300 --> 01:09:15.039
is. So when they shine light in someone's eyes

01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:17.180
and they take it away and they go... That's so

01:09:17.180 --> 01:09:19.539
weird that you can look in someone's eyes and

01:09:19.539 --> 01:09:22.100
there's something about... You can kind of tell

01:09:22.100 --> 01:09:24.500
what kind of a person they are in some ways,

01:09:24.539 --> 01:09:27.520
or at least tell how they're thinking. If someone's

01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:30.220
uncomfortable being around you, you could see

01:09:30.220 --> 01:09:32.880
it in their eyes. If you tried to write that

01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:35.000
down, like, what are you seeing? You try to explain

01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:37.720
it to someone. Good luck. Good luck writing that

01:09:37.720 --> 01:09:39.899
down. I don't know what that is. But I know when

01:09:39.899 --> 01:09:42.000
someone's full of shit. Like if someone's lying

01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:44.420
to me or bullshitting me, I'm not always aware,

01:09:44.619 --> 01:09:47.920
but I'm aware a lot. Well, and it's not just

01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:50.039
their individual eyes, but it's also the way

01:09:50.039 --> 01:09:54.020
that they focus their eyes. So you know the myth

01:09:54.020 --> 01:09:56.000
of the cyclops, right? One eye in the middle

01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:58.359
of the head. That myth has origins in the fact

01:09:58.359 --> 01:10:01.640
that the cyclop was one -dimensional anger. And

01:10:01.640 --> 01:10:04.140
it turns out that when we are – experience an

01:10:04.140 --> 01:10:06.159
increase in autonomic arousal. So let's say we

01:10:06.159 --> 01:10:07.539
decide we're going to fight, we decide we're

01:10:07.539 --> 01:10:09.420
going to learn, or maybe even just we're going

01:10:09.420 --> 01:10:11.119
to write something important. Something's important.

01:10:11.699 --> 01:10:14.760
Our eyes, the pupils change shape. But because

01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:16.979
our eyes don't really move in our skull, they

01:10:16.979 --> 01:10:19.140
actually do what's called foveate in a little

01:10:19.140 --> 01:10:21.859
bit. There's an eye musculature reflex that gets

01:10:21.859 --> 01:10:24.060
triggered in. And so you can see this sometimes

01:10:24.060 --> 01:10:26.960
in people that are getting ready to fight. Their

01:10:26.960 --> 01:10:29.840
eyes are actually brought inward. That triggers

01:10:29.840 --> 01:10:32.560
another neural circuit to increase levels of

01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:35.420
autonomic arousal and starts deploying resources

01:10:35.420 --> 01:10:39.619
internally, fuel resources, fuel. For bouts of

01:10:39.619 --> 01:10:41.859
intense stuff, whatever that intense thing is

01:10:41.859 --> 01:10:45.079
going to be. When we're relaxed, like we view

01:10:45.079 --> 01:10:47.819
a horizon or we're just walking or we're in what's

01:10:47.819 --> 01:10:49.800
called optic flow when things are flowing past

01:10:49.800 --> 01:10:52.939
us, we go into panoramic vision. So in panoramic

01:10:52.939 --> 01:10:55.579
vision, you go out of that soda straw view of

01:10:55.579 --> 01:10:57.140
the world and you start being able to see the

01:10:57.140 --> 01:10:59.439
corners of the room. the ceiling, the floor.

01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:02.460
And that's a relaxed state. So sometimes we're

01:11:02.460 --> 01:11:04.779
even subconsciously perceiving how stressed or

01:11:04.779 --> 01:11:06.579
relaxed somebody is, not by necessarily their

01:11:06.579 --> 01:11:09.060
pupils, although that might play into it. It

01:11:09.060 --> 01:11:11.539
certainly has a role, but whether or not based

01:11:11.539 --> 01:11:13.960
on your prior kind of intuitive knowledge about

01:11:13.960 --> 01:11:16.760
that person, whether or not they're like cyclops

01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:18.399
or whether or not they're in panoramic vision.

01:11:18.579 --> 01:11:22.359
And this is important because it changes the

01:11:22.359 --> 01:11:26.460
way we perceive time. If we are in cyclops vision,

01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:29.279
soda straw view, that high intensity, we tend

01:11:29.279 --> 01:11:31.739
to do two things. One is we tend to be more in

01:11:31.739 --> 01:11:33.779
tune with what's going on inside us. We start

01:11:33.779 --> 01:11:36.020
– the brain does this other thing which is called

01:11:36.020 --> 01:11:37.720
interoception. It's like paying attention to

01:11:37.720 --> 01:11:40.539
what's going on inside us versus outside us.

01:11:40.720 --> 01:11:44.760
And when we're stressed, time outside us seems

01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:47.039
to go really slowly. It's like you're in the

01:11:47.039 --> 01:11:48.840
security line at the airport and you need to

01:11:48.840 --> 01:11:51.289
get your flight. It's a very different perception

01:11:51.289 --> 01:11:52.909
of the person in front of you and what they're

01:11:52.909 --> 01:11:54.310
doing than when you're relaxed and you've got

01:11:54.310 --> 01:11:56.550
plenty of time. And that's because outside events

01:11:56.550 --> 01:11:59.369
start to feel slower. This is why after a car

01:11:59.369 --> 01:12:02.569
crash, people will say, you know, oh, everything

01:12:02.569 --> 01:12:05.750
was in slow motion. Or I've never actually looked

01:12:05.750 --> 01:12:09.369
at fighters. I visited the UFC training center,

01:12:09.449 --> 01:12:11.789
Duncan French. I went out there and talked to

01:12:11.789 --> 01:12:13.670
him about this. Shout out to Duncan. Yeah, he's

01:12:13.670 --> 01:12:15.989
done some – his graduate thesis is like this

01:12:15.989 --> 01:12:19.109
beautiful work related to this, although not

01:12:19.109 --> 01:12:21.529
directly. It has important implications for this,

01:12:21.590 --> 01:12:23.170
which is when you're in these high adrenaline

01:12:23.170 --> 01:12:26.590
states, you parse time differently. And when

01:12:26.590 --> 01:12:29.569
I hear about fighters, you know, say like being

01:12:29.569 --> 01:12:32.069
able to – time the fight, or it's almost like

01:12:32.069 --> 01:12:34.689
they can see things coming in slow motion. That's

01:12:34.689 --> 01:12:37.470
because their internal level of arousal is really,

01:12:37.529 --> 01:12:40.689
really high, but it feels like relaxation. So

01:12:40.689 --> 01:12:43.590
there's like sleepy, not feeling so good. Everything

01:12:43.590 --> 01:12:45.789
feels like it's going on really fast. I can't

01:12:45.789 --> 01:12:47.909
deal with life. Then you ramp up your level of

01:12:47.909 --> 01:12:50.029
intensity and everything outside you feels like

01:12:50.029 --> 01:12:51.430
it's going a little slower. Maybe you're matched

01:12:51.430 --> 01:12:53.390
to that. Like I'm a pretty high intensity guy

01:12:53.390 --> 01:12:55.369
when I'm in New York. I feel great, at least

01:12:55.369 --> 01:12:57.920
before the COVID thing. People walking down the

01:12:57.920 --> 01:12:59.680
street, I finally feel like the tempo is kind

01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:02.279
of matched between internal and external. Oh,

01:13:02.359 --> 01:13:05.159
is that why, like, those high -functioning people

01:13:05.159 --> 01:13:08.279
enjoy Manhattan? Yeah, why neurotic people like

01:13:08.279 --> 01:13:10.439
Manhattan. Is that what it is? You take a neurotic

01:13:10.439 --> 01:13:12.380
person, you put them in Manhattan, they're like,

01:13:12.420 --> 01:13:15.500
oh. Yeah. Yeah, they love it. Yeah, a lot of

01:13:15.500 --> 01:13:17.199
my friends that are neurotic, they love it there.

01:13:17.340 --> 01:13:19.840
Yeah. I come from neurotic lineage. I'm constantly

01:13:19.840 --> 01:13:21.680
trying to get to the other part of the seesaw.

01:13:21.979 --> 01:13:24.399
But I get it. You know, I get out of the subway

01:13:24.399 --> 01:13:26.869
in New York, and I'm like. The walking speed,

01:13:27.010 --> 01:13:29.329
the speed of everything, it just, I finally feel

01:13:29.329 --> 01:13:33.130
like internal to external match. Does this thing

01:13:33.130 --> 01:13:36.710
that connects the fluttering of the eyelids to

01:13:36.710 --> 01:13:39.529
being able to be hypnotized more easily, does

01:13:39.529 --> 01:13:43.729
that coincide with a personality variable? Not

01:13:43.729 --> 01:13:45.810
that I'm aware of. I'd have to ask David. I don't

01:13:45.810 --> 01:13:47.109
want to throw something out there that's wrong.

01:13:47.270 --> 01:13:49.369
I'd have to ask him. There's a whole set of personality

01:13:49.369 --> 01:13:54.220
traits and coping traits that relate to. There's

01:13:54.220 --> 01:13:56.159
a small subset of people that just cannot be

01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:59.220
hypnotized. Really? You can't really force hypnotism

01:13:59.220 --> 01:14:02.159
on people. But is it they cannot or they are

01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:04.779
not willing to let themselves be? Because I've

01:14:04.779 --> 01:14:07.119
been hypnotized. My friend Vinny Shorman, he

01:14:07.119 --> 01:14:10.359
works with fighters. He hypnotizes. He calls

01:14:10.359 --> 01:14:14.159
it mental coaching. And I was like, I want to

01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:15.840
know what you're doing. He's been on my podcast

01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:17.399
before. I'm like, do it to me. Let's see what's

01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:19.819
up. It was very weird. Did you find it beneficial?

01:14:20.409 --> 01:14:23.550
I think I did. I only did it once. But I was

01:14:23.550 --> 01:14:26.609
kind of stunned by it. I'm like, oh, this is

01:14:26.609 --> 01:14:28.909
a weird state where you're kind of there but

01:14:28.909 --> 01:14:31.649
not there. Like it's not like you don't know

01:14:31.649 --> 01:14:33.470
what's going on. You do know what's going on,

01:14:33.550 --> 01:14:37.710
but you're in this weird sort of quasi -relaxed,

01:14:37.710 --> 01:14:41.090
sleepy thing. It's a very unusual state. This

01:14:41.090 --> 01:14:45.829
match of high focus, deep relaxation is not a

01:14:45.829 --> 01:14:49.850
brain state that we can access very easily without.

01:14:50.649 --> 01:14:52.970
I mean there are other ways to do it. But that

01:14:52.970 --> 01:14:57.829
state would be super beneficial for people wanting

01:14:57.829 --> 01:15:01.050
to learn something because it would relax them

01:15:01.050 --> 01:15:04.989
much more deeply than it would just ordinarily

01:15:04.989 --> 01:15:07.310
everyday life while you're conscious. That's

01:15:07.310 --> 01:15:10.369
right. It's taking the two pieces of the plasticity

01:15:10.369 --> 01:15:12.630
puzzle and putting them in the same event. So

01:15:12.630 --> 01:15:15.810
I don't think it should be the only way to learn

01:15:15.810 --> 01:15:17.789
new things because there are things you can't

01:15:17.789 --> 01:15:20.569
do in hypnosis like roll jiu -jitsu. I mean,

01:15:20.569 --> 01:15:25.770
for instance, but as a tool for accessing faster

01:15:25.770 --> 01:15:28.630
learning, it's quite powerful, just like sleep.

01:15:28.750 --> 01:15:31.090
I mean, I think the work of Matt Walker and Bill

01:15:31.090 --> 01:15:32.750
Dement at Stanford and others has just shown,

01:15:32.770 --> 01:15:35.069
like, if you want to pull someone apart, you

01:15:35.069 --> 01:15:38.270
want to just make them insane. unable to do these

01:15:38.270 --> 01:15:41.130
duration path outcome, you know, mental operations,

01:15:41.369 --> 01:15:43.750
you sleep deprive them. There's a thing that

01:15:43.750 --> 01:15:46.329
people do this sort of reductionist dismissive

01:15:46.329 --> 01:15:49.949
way of viewing meditation and viewing states

01:15:49.949 --> 01:15:52.329
of mind. That is really weird to me because smart

01:15:52.329 --> 01:15:55.430
people do it occasionally. And there's a guy

01:15:55.430 --> 01:15:57.569
that I think is very smart. And he was talking

01:15:57.569 --> 01:16:00.489
about it on Twitter, like mocking meditation.

01:16:01.069 --> 01:16:03.970
Well, and I was like, man, this is a guy who's

01:16:03.970 --> 01:16:06.250
probably never really meditated. Well, meditation,

01:16:06.609 --> 01:16:08.770
you know, I guess growing up in Northern California

01:16:08.770 --> 01:16:10.649
and the whole mindfulness thing. That's the problem.

01:16:10.810 --> 01:16:14.930
So it's the stuff around it often, you know,

01:16:14.930 --> 01:16:16.810
and I think this is why like it's exciting that

01:16:16.810 --> 01:16:19.050
respiration slash breath work is now making a,

01:16:19.050 --> 01:16:20.729
you know, a big showing in the world because

01:16:20.729 --> 01:16:23.010
I think it has tremendous value. I think that

01:16:23.010 --> 01:16:24.890
it's the stuff around it that causes problems

01:16:24.890 --> 01:16:29.350
and can get it pushed into like the naming. I

01:16:29.350 --> 01:16:31.520
mean, like. I mean, I have nothing against yoga.

01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:33.600
I mean, there's a lot of powerful tools in yoga,

01:16:33.680 --> 01:16:36.819
but it's the ashandas and all the stuff around

01:16:36.819 --> 01:16:38.560
it makes it sound a little bit like religion.

01:16:38.579 --> 01:16:41.079
And a lot of people in medical communities and

01:16:41.079 --> 01:16:43.619
other religious communities back off from that.

01:16:43.760 --> 01:16:46.140
Well, there's a problem with yoga that I actually

01:16:46.140 --> 01:16:48.479
had a conversation with my yoga instructor about

01:16:48.479 --> 01:16:52.010
because. I do a Bikram class, and they say things

01:16:52.010 --> 01:16:54.550
in the class like you're massaging your descending

01:16:54.550 --> 01:16:57.090
colon. I'm like, no, you're not. You're definitely

01:16:57.090 --> 01:16:58.510
not doing that. You should probably stop saying

01:16:58.510 --> 01:17:00.630
that because that's not really possible. You're

01:17:00.630 --> 01:17:02.489
not massaging your fucking colon while you're

01:17:02.489 --> 01:17:06.630
stretching. That's nonsense. Are you increasing

01:17:06.630 --> 01:17:09.010
your flexibility? Yes. Are you strengthening

01:17:09.010 --> 01:17:12.869
your balance and your stability? 100%. But there's

01:17:12.869 --> 01:17:15.630
so much nonsense that goes with it that they...

01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:17.640
You know, if you talk to a doctor, they're like,

01:17:17.720 --> 01:17:20.100
oh, right. You're not doing that because I have

01:17:20.100 --> 01:17:22.119
talked to doctors. I'm like, OK, before I criticize

01:17:22.119 --> 01:17:25.159
this, is it even possible that this is going

01:17:25.159 --> 01:17:27.699
on? Like, no. Right. And the medical community

01:17:27.699 --> 01:17:29.779
can be a little bit too one sided as well. But,

01:17:29.819 --> 01:17:32.640
you know, I think Stanford's a very progressive

01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:35.520
place. Spiegel and I have this study looking

01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:38.300
at respiration and its impact, I think, is a

01:17:38.300 --> 01:17:40.899
sign that the times are changing. We're not doing

01:17:40.899 --> 01:17:42.560
this in any kind of mystical way. The fact that

01:17:42.560 --> 01:17:45.319
people in military special operations and athletics

01:17:45.319 --> 01:17:47.119
are starting to think about the mind and the

01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:49.899
tools to access the mind is. a sign that there's

01:17:49.899 --> 01:17:52.560
been a tide change. I had James Nestor on the

01:17:52.560 --> 01:17:54.760
podcast recently, and we talked about his new

01:17:54.760 --> 01:17:58.659
book, Breath, and just the ability to control

01:17:58.659 --> 01:18:02.220
various aspects of your nervous system and even

01:18:02.220 --> 01:18:04.399
your immune system through breath work. It's

01:18:04.399 --> 01:18:07.279
very confusing because everybody breathes. So

01:18:07.279 --> 01:18:09.640
you and I are both breathing right now. We're

01:18:09.640 --> 01:18:11.640
not doing breathing exercises, but we're breathing.

01:18:11.760 --> 01:18:14.699
So what is it about breathing exercises that

01:18:14.699 --> 01:18:18.739
accentuate these aspects of... autonomic system

01:18:18.739 --> 01:18:23.140
and sympathetic system? What's going on? First

01:18:23.140 --> 01:18:25.260
of all, I think James' book is great. It's amazing.

01:18:25.800 --> 01:18:28.119
It sounds like I'm just shamelessly plugging

01:18:28.119 --> 01:18:30.680
Stanford constantly, but most of the studies

01:18:30.680 --> 01:18:32.340
he was referring to were done by my colleagues,

01:18:32.380 --> 01:18:35.680
Paul Ehrlich, Sandra Kahn, stuff in my lab, Mark

01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:39.159
Krasnow. These are serious scientists and serious

01:18:39.159 --> 01:18:41.739
physicians who are saying, look, respiration

01:18:41.739 --> 01:18:44.260
has an important role in balancing oxygen and

01:18:44.260 --> 01:18:46.819
carbon dioxide in the body. and in the brain.

01:18:46.920 --> 01:18:49.600
And that has an important impact on states of

01:18:49.600 --> 01:18:51.979
mind and body. I think that's just no medical

01:18:51.979 --> 01:18:55.579
professional, presuming they're any good, could

01:18:55.579 --> 01:19:00.020
argue that. So take, for instance, Mark Krasnow's

01:19:00.020 --> 01:19:01.699
lab and a neighboring lab at Stanford discovered

01:19:01.699 --> 01:19:05.140
that animals and people periodically throughout

01:19:05.140 --> 01:19:06.880
sleep and throughout the day will do what's called

01:19:06.880 --> 01:19:09.399
a physiological sigh. These have been known about

01:19:09.399 --> 01:19:11.920
since the 30s, but it turns out there's a set

01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:13.680
of neurons in your brainstem and my brainstem

01:19:13.680 --> 01:19:15.880
that every once in a while when the level of

01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:17.899
carbon dioxide in your bloodstream gets too high,

01:19:18.039 --> 01:19:20.819
you do a double inhale and an extended exhale.

01:19:21.020 --> 01:19:22.460
So it's sort of like two inhales through the

01:19:22.460 --> 01:19:24.460
nose and extended exhale. Your dog does this

01:19:24.460 --> 01:19:26.560
right before it goes down for a minute. Yeah.

01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:29.260
To offload carbon dioxide. That double inhale,

01:19:29.500 --> 01:19:32.119
I don't think James talked about this. If he

01:19:32.119 --> 01:19:35.720
did, forgive me. The double inhale. maximally

01:19:35.720 --> 01:19:38.420
inflates the little sacs in the lungs, the alveoli

01:19:38.420 --> 01:19:42.520
of the lungs. And that pulls carbon dioxide out

01:19:42.520 --> 01:19:44.500
of the bloodstream at a higher level so that

01:19:44.500 --> 01:19:47.140
you offload it more in the exhale. Now, these

01:19:47.140 --> 01:19:49.819
physiological sides are the fastest way that

01:19:49.819 --> 01:19:52.399
I'm aware of from work in our lab and with Spiegel

01:19:52.399 --> 01:19:56.699
to take that seesaw from too high level of stress

01:19:56.699 --> 01:19:59.399
to a little bit calmer. Double inhale, exhale.

01:19:59.539 --> 01:20:01.899
So this is in breath work. This is a set of neurons

01:20:01.899 --> 01:20:05.100
that every kid and every adult has. They use

01:20:05.100 --> 01:20:07.640
periodically, but we can also consciously control

01:20:07.640 --> 01:20:10.739
through the diaphragm. So that's one way to bring

01:20:10.739 --> 01:20:14.020
things more calm. I think, you know, James talked

01:20:14.020 --> 01:20:15.819
about this in his book, but those breath work

01:20:15.819 --> 01:20:17.579
of the sort where, you know, kind of tummo type

01:20:17.579 --> 01:20:19.859
breathing of doing, you know, 30 inhales and

01:20:19.859 --> 01:20:23.430
really offloading a lot of carbon dioxide. causes

01:20:23.430 --> 01:20:25.949
the release of noradrenaline, norepinephrine.

01:20:26.130 --> 01:20:29.609
And noradrenaline, norepinephrine are Mother

01:20:29.609 --> 01:20:32.729
Nature's way of buffering us against infection

01:20:32.729 --> 01:20:36.149
and disease. Everyone thinks stress kills your

01:20:36.149 --> 01:20:39.100
immune system. It's the opposite. Stress... activates

01:20:39.100 --> 01:20:41.100
your immune system. And that makes sense. If

01:20:41.100 --> 01:20:43.859
we suddenly had to forage or go out and find

01:20:43.859 --> 01:20:45.840
water, we need two or three days and we didn't

01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:47.399
know what we're going to, you can't afford to

01:20:47.399 --> 01:20:48.960
get sick. This is why if you work, work, work,

01:20:49.020 --> 01:20:50.600
work, work, and then you finally rest, you're

01:20:50.600 --> 01:20:53.920
more likely to get sick as you go into that more

01:20:53.920 --> 01:20:56.220
parasympathetic, relaxed state because your immune

01:20:56.220 --> 01:20:58.739
system also gets shut off. Is that why people

01:20:58.739 --> 01:21:01.039
in prison that are getting COVID -19 are not

01:21:01.039 --> 01:21:02.920
really getting sick? There's so many of them

01:21:02.920 --> 01:21:05.220
that are asymptomatic. Could be. I didn't realize

01:21:05.220 --> 01:21:07.920
they were asymptomatic. Or if you're very stressed

01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:10.779
for a very long time, eventually the immune system

01:21:10.779 --> 01:21:12.939
can't deploy these killer cells that it needs

01:21:12.939 --> 01:21:14.960
to deploy. So there's a certain amount of stress

01:21:14.960 --> 01:21:17.039
that's actually beneficial to you and your immune

01:21:17.039 --> 01:21:20.470
system. Right. But I get very... I start doing

01:21:20.470 --> 01:21:22.090
eye rolls and I get a little frustrated when

01:21:22.090 --> 01:21:24.609
people are like adrenal burnout. Look, your adrenals

01:21:24.609 --> 01:21:26.529
were designed to take you through two lifetimes

01:21:26.529 --> 01:21:28.590
if you need to. The idea that your adrenals are

01:21:28.590 --> 01:21:30.310
just going to shrivel up into, you know. Somebody

01:21:30.310 --> 01:21:32.890
told me that their doctor told them that coffee

01:21:32.890 --> 01:21:34.750
is giving them adrenal burnout. Is that nonsense?

01:21:35.029 --> 01:21:37.090
I want to see. I mean, I teach neuroanatomy.

01:21:37.149 --> 01:21:39.510
Show me adrenal burnout. Show me an adrenals

01:21:39.510 --> 01:21:41.310
that won't secrete adrenaline anymore. So why

01:21:41.310 --> 01:21:43.109
are they saying that? Like, where did that come

01:21:43.109 --> 01:21:45.250
from? Sounds good. Sounds better than parasympathetic

01:21:45.250 --> 01:21:47.470
sympathetic. Yeah. Yeah. That's like this doctor

01:21:47.470 --> 01:21:49.220
was telling my friend that drinking coffee. He's

01:21:49.220 --> 01:21:52.560
burning out his adrenals. I mean, it may be putting

01:21:52.560 --> 01:21:54.939
them into a state of heightened activation and

01:21:54.939 --> 01:21:56.800
they can't take it down a notch in the evening.

01:21:56.880 --> 01:21:58.399
They don't know how to relax. They don't know

01:21:58.399 --> 01:22:00.539
how to turn on the parasympathetic nervous system

01:22:00.539 --> 01:22:02.800
without doing things like eating or something,

01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:05.380
which is one way to do it. But and I think as

01:22:05.380 --> 01:22:08.800
a society, we're struggling to manage this seesaw.

01:22:08.899 --> 01:22:12.739
I mean, we know that. Being in a chronic state

01:22:12.739 --> 01:22:15.000
of stress is bad physically. You don't want to

01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:17.520
do that, but you also don't want to do it for

01:22:17.520 --> 01:22:19.619
your mind. I mean, anytime you're stressed, you're

01:22:19.619 --> 01:22:21.880
also able to be recruited better by other people's

01:22:21.880 --> 01:22:24.380
stress. We know that. Recruited by other people's

01:22:24.380 --> 01:22:26.880
stress. Yeah. So my lab has also looked at like

01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:29.479
how stress spreads between people, how the autonomic

01:22:29.479 --> 01:22:31.319
nervous systems communicate. And we know that

01:22:31.319 --> 01:22:33.899
the best way to get what's called emotional contagion

01:22:33.899 --> 01:22:36.000
is to get people into a heightened state of.

01:22:36.319 --> 01:22:39.180
you know alertness i'm guessing and i have no

01:22:39.180 --> 01:22:40.899
knowledge of comedy whatsoever but i'm guessing

01:22:40.899 --> 01:22:42.779
that the comedian that's less funny that comes

01:22:42.779 --> 01:22:45.819
out before the main person i'm guessing they're

01:22:45.819 --> 01:22:48.300
trying to get them like ramped up you can create

01:22:48.300 --> 01:22:50.279
a more emotional contagion you have to take them

01:22:50.279 --> 01:22:51.840
from the floor all the way up to the ceiling

01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:53.979
kind of get them up a level is that right or

01:22:53.979 --> 01:22:56.680
am i way off base with that well it's interesting

01:22:56.680 --> 01:22:58.579
that you put it that way it's actually a problem

01:22:59.809 --> 01:23:03.189
that comedians that have sensitive egos will

01:23:03.189 --> 01:23:05.670
bring less funny comedians with them on the road

01:23:05.670 --> 01:23:10.340
so they look better. it's like amongst elite

01:23:10.340 --> 01:23:13.640
comics it's actually very frowned upon because

01:23:13.640 --> 01:23:15.600
it's you're setting yourself up to look like

01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:17.800
a hero you rescue the audience from some terrible

01:23:17.800 --> 01:23:20.460
comedian that you had open for you if you you

01:23:20.460 --> 01:23:25.439
could judge the uh ego or the health of the ego

01:23:25.439 --> 01:23:28.300
of the headliner by what kind of comedians they

01:23:28.300 --> 01:23:29.819
consistently take with them on the road i mean

01:23:29.819 --> 01:23:31.880
you know everybody has bad sets occasionally

01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:35.779
but A lot of times these weak -minded guys will

01:23:35.779 --> 01:23:37.500
bring these terrible comedians on the road with

01:23:37.500 --> 01:23:40.399
them. Interesting. Yeah. But the reason is because

01:23:40.399 --> 01:23:42.520
they don't want to be outshined. That's what

01:23:42.520 --> 01:23:45.460
it is. Makes sense. Yeah. Well, that's anchored

01:23:45.460 --> 01:23:47.319
in a neurobiological phenomenon. Forgive me.

01:23:47.340 --> 01:23:49.220
This is all I think about. Oh, please. Called

01:23:49.220 --> 01:23:53.000
dopamine reward prediction error. So it's very

01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:56.180
simple, really. It basically says that the degree

01:23:56.180 --> 01:23:58.840
to which something feels really good or you experienced

01:23:58.840 --> 01:24:00.739
it as great could be a great meal or a comedy

01:24:00.739 --> 01:24:03.779
set. from the perspective of the audience, of

01:24:03.779 --> 01:24:06.899
course, is going to depend on how much dopamine

01:24:06.899 --> 01:24:09.539
you got before. So if I tell you we're going

01:24:09.539 --> 01:24:11.000
to go to a restaurant tonight, this is amazing.

01:24:11.119 --> 01:24:13.020
I got the most amazing steaks, amazing steaks.

01:24:13.039 --> 01:24:15.520
And we get there. There's a higher probability

01:24:15.520 --> 01:24:17.300
that steak isn't going to taste great to you.

01:24:17.560 --> 01:24:20.489
Really? Absolutely. Reward prediction error means

01:24:20.489 --> 01:24:22.430
that – But what if it's really great? It has

01:24:22.430 --> 01:24:24.789
to exceed the dopamine that you had en route

01:24:24.789 --> 01:24:26.090
to that. You can't bullshit people. That's what

01:24:26.090 --> 01:24:27.770
you're saying. You basically can't bullshit people.

01:24:27.829 --> 01:24:29.989
Right. Well, there's something that does happen.

01:24:30.029 --> 01:24:32.250
There's a contagion that does happen when people

01:24:32.250 --> 01:24:35.770
are funny where it's contagious and everyone

01:24:35.770 --> 01:24:38.529
around you starts laughing more because there's

01:24:38.529 --> 01:24:40.689
more people around you laughing. Like if I'm

01:24:40.689 --> 01:24:42.989
in a room and there's a funny comedian on stage

01:24:42.989 --> 01:24:45.250
and there's a bunch of people to my left and

01:24:45.250 --> 01:24:47.149
right that are laughing really hard, I'm more

01:24:47.149 --> 01:24:49.529
likely to laugh. Right. There's something weird

01:24:49.529 --> 01:24:52.270
that goes on. And one of the things that I've

01:24:52.270 --> 01:24:55.350
always said about stand up is I think it's kind

01:24:55.350 --> 01:24:59.569
of a mass hypnosis. It's not just funny, you

01:24:59.569 --> 01:25:01.670
know, because if it was funny, there's these

01:25:01.670 --> 01:25:04.510
comics that are doing these Zoom comedy shows.

01:25:05.560 --> 01:25:07.979
i encourage them to all stop doing it immediately

01:25:07.979 --> 01:25:11.319
because it's terrible even great comics look

01:25:11.319 --> 01:25:14.340
terrible because you're lacking that critical

01:25:14.340 --> 01:25:16.739
element of an audience stand -up comedy is one

01:25:16.739 --> 01:25:19.500
of the rare art forms you really can't do on

01:25:19.500 --> 01:25:21.380
your own you have to do it in front of people

01:25:21.380 --> 01:25:25.100
and i think what's happening is When it's not

01:25:25.100 --> 01:25:27.239
just – when a person is on stage that's really

01:25:27.239 --> 01:25:29.479
good, it's not just that they're funny. It's

01:25:29.479 --> 01:25:31.520
not just their timing is excellent. It's not

01:25:31.520 --> 01:25:34.020
just they have these really insightful ways of

01:25:34.020 --> 01:25:35.920
looking at things that make you laugh. It's also

01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:37.460
that you're around a bunch of other people that

01:25:37.460 --> 01:25:39.760
are experiencing it together. And when that person

01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:43.119
is good, you are allowing them to think for you.

01:25:43.300 --> 01:25:45.460
There's some weird – like if I'm watching a guy

01:25:45.460 --> 01:25:47.939
on stage and he's really good or a girl on stage

01:25:47.939 --> 01:25:50.239
who's really good, when someone is killing, I'm

01:25:50.239 --> 01:25:52.649
allowing that person to think for me. I'm like

01:25:52.649 --> 01:25:54.510
sitting there just like, go ahead, take me for

01:25:54.510 --> 01:25:57.229
a ride. Let's go. And then they're making you

01:25:57.229 --> 01:26:00.649
laugh. But it's you're also aware that you're

01:26:00.649 --> 01:26:02.529
in it with these other people. So you have this

01:26:02.529 --> 01:26:05.270
enhanced state because all these other people

01:26:05.270 --> 01:26:06.890
are around you and you're all experiencing it

01:26:06.890 --> 01:26:09.930
together. This is I don't know much about comedy

01:26:09.930 --> 01:26:12.449
at all. So forgive me. But comedy to me is very

01:26:12.449 --> 01:26:15.829
interesting because it's a and I don't know how

01:26:15.829 --> 01:26:17.689
the comedy scripts are written, but I find them.

01:26:18.330 --> 01:26:20.630
incredibly fascinating because it seems like

01:26:20.630 --> 01:26:24.390
almost all jokes are a break from the space time

01:26:24.390 --> 01:26:27.250
rule that the brain expects. Close contact card

01:26:27.250 --> 01:26:29.909
magicians do this very well too. It's like you're

01:26:29.909 --> 01:26:32.430
expecting something to happen and I think he's

01:26:32.430 --> 01:26:34.750
going there. So it's sort of duration path outcome

01:26:34.750 --> 01:26:36.449
like this. And then all of a sudden you get hit

01:26:36.449 --> 01:26:38.649
with something that's surprising. Yes. This is

01:26:38.649 --> 01:26:40.729
probably not funny. Maybe it is to you or not,

01:26:40.770 --> 01:26:42.590
but there's a Steve Martin thing from way back

01:26:42.590 --> 01:26:44.789
when where he, he basically does comedy for dogs

01:26:44.789 --> 01:26:47.510
or something. He brings out dogs and, and, and,

01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:50.260
It's a perfect example of just breaking all the

01:26:50.260 --> 01:26:52.699
rules. The dogs are telling him what to do. And

01:26:52.699 --> 01:26:55.119
at first, it's not funny. And then he keeps going

01:26:55.119 --> 01:26:57.800
with it. And what you realize is he's, I don't

01:26:57.800 --> 01:27:00.220
want to use the word hypnotize incorrectly here,

01:27:00.279 --> 01:27:02.920
but he's bringing you into a reality where the

01:27:02.920 --> 01:27:05.039
dogs are setting the rules. And it's hilarious

01:27:05.039 --> 01:27:09.000
because the brain, when it sees surprise. It

01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:10.720
could be a card that, you know, you pick and

01:27:10.720 --> 01:27:12.619
then I tear it up and then you suddenly produce

01:27:12.619 --> 01:27:14.779
it from my shoe or something like that. Extreme

01:27:14.779 --> 01:27:17.239
magician type stuff or really funny joke. It's

01:27:17.239 --> 01:27:19.159
like the brain wants to go one place. And when

01:27:19.159 --> 01:27:21.819
something unexpected happens, dopamine is released.

01:27:22.060 --> 01:27:24.659
We know this. It's like surge of dopamine. And

01:27:24.659 --> 01:27:26.819
all of a sudden, it's like I'm in a state where

01:27:26.819 --> 01:27:28.380
then you can take me further up the staircase.

01:27:28.739 --> 01:27:30.939
The one thing we know about dopamine was why

01:27:30.939 --> 01:27:32.739
it's so powerful is not just that it can buffer

01:27:32.739 --> 01:27:36.029
these feelings of effort, but that. it can take

01:27:36.029 --> 01:27:38.609
you into new ways of thinking about a problem.

01:27:38.850 --> 01:27:41.310
I mean, this is why a lot of – and this isn't

01:27:41.310 --> 01:27:42.710
work that I'm involved in, but this is why a

01:27:42.710 --> 01:27:46.010
lot of the excitement about the therapeutic use

01:27:46.010 --> 01:27:49.489
of MDMA and things that increase dopamine are

01:27:49.489 --> 01:27:52.729
windows into modes of processing information

01:27:52.729 --> 01:27:55.550
that are very different. Now, on the dark side

01:27:55.550 --> 01:27:58.630
of that, if you think about cocaine or methamphetamine,

01:27:58.649 --> 01:28:00.729
you've got dopamine coming in artificially and

01:28:00.729 --> 01:28:03.149
– It tends to create a problem. It tends to make

01:28:03.149 --> 01:28:05.470
people super focused on everything outside them

01:28:05.470 --> 01:28:07.670
and in pursuit of more stuff. That's what happens

01:28:07.670 --> 01:28:09.829
with really high dopamine. But dopamine appropriately

01:28:09.829 --> 01:28:14.470
dosed allows us to. And explore new realities

01:28:14.470 --> 01:28:17.630
of how, you know, what led to that joke, a new

01:28:17.630 --> 01:28:20.489
variation. Anyway, I'm sort of like parsing comedy.

01:28:20.689 --> 01:28:22.310
I don't know anything about it. But when I watch

01:28:22.310 --> 01:28:24.069
comedy, I'm always looking for that element of

01:28:24.069 --> 01:28:25.430
surprise. And sometimes I think you're laying

01:28:25.430 --> 01:28:27.409
out crumbs for me. And then you'll hit me with

01:28:27.409 --> 01:28:29.970
something I had no idea. And that's twice as

01:28:29.970 --> 01:28:32.029
fun. Then you get that pop. That's the pop. That's

01:28:32.029 --> 01:28:34.689
dopamine. When someone does cocaine, do they

01:28:34.689 --> 01:28:38.850
wear out their dopamine receptors? So in short,

01:28:39.409 --> 01:28:42.939
yes. The dopamine receptors. are very prone to

01:28:42.939 --> 01:28:46.340
saturation remember the the they're like parking

01:28:46.340 --> 01:28:48.899
spots and you can fill those up very quickly

01:28:48.899 --> 01:28:51.600
and there's actually changes that happen at the

01:28:51.600 --> 01:28:54.220
genetic level in cells when there's too much

01:28:54.220 --> 01:28:56.319
dopamine in the system for too long like with

01:28:56.319 --> 01:28:58.460
dopamine addiction or crack cocaine addiction

01:28:58.460 --> 01:29:01.619
the cells actually start modifying the way they

01:29:01.619 --> 01:29:04.340
work so that they become better and better at

01:29:04.340 --> 01:29:06.420
gobbling up dopamine the whole system becomes

01:29:06.420 --> 01:29:10.960
a dopamine pursuit And in thinking about the

01:29:10.960 --> 01:29:13.619
brain for these kind of very top contour conceptual

01:29:13.619 --> 01:29:16.840
levels, we can think of addiction as just a narrowing

01:29:16.840 --> 01:29:19.359
of the things that bring you pleasure. And so

01:29:19.359 --> 01:29:22.560
what you want is to obviously not use cocaine.

01:29:22.659 --> 01:29:25.979
What you want is to access the dopamine system

01:29:25.979 --> 01:29:29.779
through whatever process appeals to you, provided

01:29:29.779 --> 01:29:32.600
that it doesn't deplete that dopamine system.

01:29:34.880 --> 01:29:37.100
You can maximize this to the point where things

01:29:37.100 --> 01:29:39.140
don't work anymore. And there is a like kind

01:29:39.140 --> 01:29:41.180
of a little weird techie cult thing happening

01:29:41.180 --> 01:29:42.699
in the Bay Area. They call it dopamine fasting,

01:29:43.020 --> 01:29:46.520
which has no basis in physiology where these

01:29:46.520 --> 01:29:49.319
kids. Literally, they're not looking at each

01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:50.859
other in the eye because like, oh, it's too much

01:29:50.859 --> 01:29:53.300
dopamine. What? Yeah, I swear. It's a real thing.

01:29:53.420 --> 01:29:56.359
I get asked about this a lot. Oh, my God. And

01:29:56.359 --> 01:29:58.699
if anything, it would have the opposite effect

01:29:58.699 --> 01:30:00.539
that they're seeking. No wonder why there's bums

01:30:00.539 --> 01:30:02.199
just shitting in the street up there. Everyone's

01:30:02.199 --> 01:30:04.239
losing their mind. I have to be a little defensive

01:30:04.239 --> 01:30:06.340
of Northern California. It has a lot of problems.

01:30:06.420 --> 01:30:08.680
But when I go down to Venice, which I love, and

01:30:08.680 --> 01:30:10.720
I love L .A. also. I'm not one of these Southern

01:30:10.720 --> 01:30:13.119
California hating Northern Californians. There's

01:30:13.119 --> 01:30:14.380
a pretty serious homeless problem down here,

01:30:14.420 --> 01:30:16.819
too. Oh, it's growing. Yeah. Yeah. But San Francisco

01:30:16.819 --> 01:30:19.300
homelessness is— It's on another level. I mean,

01:30:19.319 --> 01:30:20.680
I don't go to the city anymore. You're the king.

01:30:20.840 --> 01:30:22.739
I don't go to the city. San Francisco either

01:30:22.739 --> 01:30:24.859
has the kings or the homeless people. Not a title

01:30:24.859 --> 01:30:27.100
we want to— Gavin Newsom, you did it, you motherfucker.

01:30:27.319 --> 01:30:30.760
You started it. I live in the East Bay side,

01:30:30.840 --> 01:30:32.239
on the Oakland side, and we have that problem

01:30:32.239 --> 01:30:34.039
there. But Oakland's always had a lot of problems.

01:30:34.199 --> 01:30:36.260
Well, it's one of the side effects of a really

01:30:36.260 --> 01:30:38.520
tolerant, progressive community, for whatever

01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:42.449
reason. You're tolerant to— Drug addicts making

01:30:42.449 --> 01:30:46.689
tent compounds. And it's very unfortunate because

01:30:46.689 --> 01:30:50.149
it ruins everything else. I get the idea behind

01:30:50.149 --> 01:30:53.350
it. I get it. But in practice, it is not effective.

01:30:53.609 --> 01:30:55.329
It's not good for them. It's not good for you.

01:30:55.489 --> 01:30:57.210
It's certainly not good for property values.

01:30:57.430 --> 01:31:00.590
It's not good for safety. It's not good for sanity.

01:31:00.869 --> 01:31:03.489
It's not good for sanitation. It's not good for

01:31:03.489 --> 01:31:05.569
anything. I mean, fucking downtown LA, they're

01:31:05.569 --> 01:31:09.760
finding typhoid. Like they're bringing back middle

01:31:09.760 --> 01:31:14.560
aged or what is it? Not middle aged. What's the

01:31:14.560 --> 01:31:16.840
word I'm looking for? Middle ages. Medieval.

01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:19.859
I always fuck that up. I fuck that up. Yeah.

01:31:20.100 --> 01:31:22.220
Medieval. Medieval diseases. They're bringing

01:31:22.220 --> 01:31:23.899
back diseases that haven't been around for fucking

01:31:23.899 --> 01:31:29.659
thousands of years. I don't know why that can't

01:31:29.659 --> 01:31:31.819
be solved. I just don't understand that problem.

01:31:32.039 --> 01:31:35.939
The homeless problem to me is so, it's so odd.

01:31:36.520 --> 01:31:38.859
that they just let them camp out. Like I went

01:31:38.859 --> 01:31:40.560
to Venice the other day for dinner, and we're

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:42.340
driving by this house, and there's a beautiful

01:31:42.340 --> 01:31:44.279
house to my left that's probably worth like $5

01:31:44.279 --> 01:31:47.560
million. And in front of it, there's 13 tents.

01:31:48.079 --> 01:31:51.359
I'm like, this is crazy. The last time I was

01:31:51.359 --> 01:31:53.439
down here was in March, right before COVID hit,

01:31:53.539 --> 01:31:56.020
or around the time, who knows when it hit. But

01:31:56.020 --> 01:31:59.460
there's a block on Venice Boulevard leading down

01:31:59.460 --> 01:32:02.039
to that Erewhon market that was maybe one block,

01:32:02.239 --> 01:32:04.420
and I drove in the other night, and it extends.

01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:06.760
you know, seven blocks. Yeah. And they don't

01:32:06.760 --> 01:32:08.779
do shit about it. And I don't know what they're

01:32:08.779 --> 01:32:10.739
going to do. Every time you go into an underpass,

01:32:10.880 --> 01:32:13.199
you're entering a homeless encampment. Now they've

01:32:13.199 --> 01:32:16.159
even, the one over here on Winnetka, they put

01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:18.439
a porta potty there and a hand washing station.

01:32:18.600 --> 01:32:21.319
Like we give up here, shit in this bucket. It's

01:32:21.319 --> 01:32:25.399
crazy. Like, wow, this is, it's just, I mean,

01:32:25.420 --> 01:32:26.979
I don't know. Maybe there's bigger fish to fry.

01:32:27.060 --> 01:32:28.380
Maybe there's more important things right now

01:32:28.380 --> 01:32:30.880
with COVID. I can't think of anything more important

01:32:30.880 --> 01:32:32.739
than making sure that citizens have healthcare

01:32:32.739 --> 01:32:35.729
and shelter. And, The route to do that is not

01:32:35.729 --> 01:32:38.289
my expertise. I don't have any great ideas about

01:32:38.289 --> 01:32:40.050
that. But I just – the homeless problem to me

01:32:40.050 --> 01:32:42.090
is very bothersome. There are neighborhoods in

01:32:42.090 --> 01:32:44.989
Berkeley. You go down towards the 4th Street,

01:32:45.090 --> 01:32:46.729
5th Street. It used to be kind of an artist district.

01:32:46.909 --> 01:32:48.670
You get down near the skateboard park. They call

01:32:48.670 --> 01:32:50.270
it the Aaron Brockovich Park because it had all

01:32:50.270 --> 01:32:52.409
this like sewage and toxic waste seeping up and

01:32:52.409 --> 01:32:55.010
kids were getting infections and stuff. So down

01:32:55.010 --> 01:32:57.430
near there. Now everyone wants to go there, right?

01:32:57.470 --> 01:33:01.930
But bus after bus after tent after tent. It's

01:33:01.930 --> 01:33:04.970
an entire city now. Of people living in the avenues

01:33:04.970 --> 01:33:07.770
back there. Yeah. And I don't know what they're

01:33:07.770 --> 01:33:09.310
going to do about it. And there doesn't seem

01:33:09.310 --> 01:33:12.930
to be any solution. I mean, there's nothing on

01:33:12.930 --> 01:33:14.930
the table. No one's doing anything. They're just

01:33:14.930 --> 01:33:18.409
letting it grow. It's so weird. It's so weird.

01:33:18.449 --> 01:33:19.989
I mean, I don't want to be the person engineers

01:33:19.989 --> 01:33:22.630
the solution. I've got shit to do. Aren't you

01:33:22.630 --> 01:33:26.350
fuckers? They're mayors and congressmen. That's

01:33:26.350 --> 01:33:29.489
your district. Go do something. Yeah. I mean,

01:33:29.510 --> 01:33:31.819
I'm. I'm not a very political person, but I'm

01:33:31.819 --> 01:33:35.079
very disappointed at, well, a lot of things.

01:33:35.159 --> 01:33:37.680
But I see a lot of great things happening in

01:33:37.680 --> 01:33:41.779
the world. But I also see almost total failure,

01:33:41.779 --> 01:33:43.960
even on the part of the scientific community,

01:33:44.060 --> 01:33:46.039
to communicate accurately what's going on right

01:33:46.039 --> 01:33:48.800
now. There's so much confusion. And, you know,

01:33:48.819 --> 01:33:50.760
I don't want to get into the COVID thing because

01:33:50.760 --> 01:33:53.619
it's not my expertise. But the fact of the matter

01:33:53.619 --> 01:33:56.960
is that science has also, you know, there are

01:33:56.960 --> 01:33:58.039
a lot of people that don't believe in science.

01:33:58.409 --> 01:34:00.510
But science has also failed at some level to

01:34:00.510 --> 01:34:02.649
get out there and explain to people what they

01:34:02.649 --> 01:34:04.590
need to know. Who are the people that don't believe

01:34:04.590 --> 01:34:07.930
in science? Well, there are the anti -vaxxer

01:34:07.930 --> 01:34:12.590
flat earth people. Yeah, schizophrenics for the

01:34:12.590 --> 01:34:14.710
most part. And I think the ease with which a

01:34:14.710 --> 01:34:17.590
celebrity can just decide that vaccinations work

01:34:17.590 --> 01:34:19.010
a certain way or don't work a certain way and

01:34:19.010 --> 01:34:21.869
it spreads so quickly and people love that idea.

01:34:22.880 --> 01:34:24.439
You know, I try and look at it through the lens

01:34:24.439 --> 01:34:26.279
of neuroscience, say, what is it about the mind

01:34:26.279 --> 01:34:28.239
where people can't seem to connect to logical

01:34:28.239 --> 01:34:30.720
ideas when it's inconvenient for them? But they

01:34:30.720 --> 01:34:33.420
can string together all these random dots into

01:34:33.420 --> 01:34:36.199
a theory that this was all caused by, you know,

01:34:36.239 --> 01:34:38.619
5G or something that makes no sense at all. So

01:34:38.619 --> 01:34:42.260
it tells me that, yes, people are challenged.

01:34:42.359 --> 01:34:45.220
But in addition to that, I do think that the

01:34:45.220 --> 01:34:49.310
scientific community has a responsibility. Let's

01:34:49.310 --> 01:34:51.909
not go after Fauci specifically, but why isn't

01:34:51.909 --> 01:34:54.489
there a team of scientists out there saying,

01:34:54.550 --> 01:34:57.010
as a team, we've figured out this, that, and

01:34:57.010 --> 01:34:59.069
the other thing? Jamie was just bringing this

01:34:59.069 --> 01:35:02.250
up earlier before the show that someone was being

01:35:02.250 --> 01:35:05.250
criticized because they said we should have more

01:35:05.250 --> 01:35:08.569
experts to draw upon other than Fauci. And this

01:35:08.569 --> 01:35:10.149
person who was interviewing, explain what they

01:35:10.149 --> 01:35:13.670
were saying. I was on CNN this morning. She just

01:35:13.670 --> 01:35:15.170
kept asking, what's your problem with Fauci?

01:35:15.250 --> 01:35:17.439
And he said, well, there's other. Why don't you

01:35:17.439 --> 01:35:19.300
talk to somebody at Stanford? He named someone

01:35:19.300 --> 01:35:20.659
specifically. I don't remember off the name.

01:35:21.220 --> 01:35:23.359
But just talk to other people. And she's like,

01:35:23.380 --> 01:35:25.180
well, we have other epidemiologists coming on

01:35:25.180 --> 01:35:26.800
the program or whatever. But he's just like,

01:35:26.840 --> 01:35:29.619
why not try this person, this person, this person?

01:35:29.899 --> 01:35:32.060
She just kept grilling him on Fauci. Why do you

01:35:32.060 --> 01:35:33.439
keep asking about Fauci? What's the problem with

01:35:33.439 --> 01:35:36.399
Fauci? It's very strange. That's not what the

01:35:36.399 --> 01:35:39.220
issue is. The issue is divergent opinions are

01:35:39.220 --> 01:35:41.359
important. Particularly when it comes to medicine

01:35:41.359 --> 01:35:44.319
and science, there's different perspectives and

01:35:44.319 --> 01:35:50.000
also equally educated experts who vary on what

01:35:50.000 --> 01:35:52.260
they think the approach should be. And I think

01:35:52.260 --> 01:35:56.640
regarding this thing, the COVID thing is completely

01:35:56.640 --> 01:35:59.359
unique, right? Because it is a novel coronavirus.

01:35:59.380 --> 01:36:03.140
So we really don't know. We don't know. And you

01:36:03.140 --> 01:36:05.500
go back and listen to what the World Health Organization

01:36:05.500 --> 01:36:08.560
was saying in January versus what Fauci was saying

01:36:08.560 --> 01:36:11.770
in March. versus what they're saying today in

01:36:11.770 --> 01:36:16.090
July, it's very different. So clearly, there's

01:36:16.090 --> 01:36:18.630
no one expert who has a fucking finger right

01:36:18.630 --> 01:36:21.090
on the pulse and like, I got this. This is what

01:36:21.090 --> 01:36:23.630
we need to do. Listen to Fauci. Listen to...

01:36:24.840 --> 01:36:27.279
Joan over there or whoever the fuck it is. That's

01:36:27.279 --> 01:36:29.739
not the case. We need a panel of experts. Yes,

01:36:29.739 --> 01:36:31.399
we do. When the space shuttle exploded, we had

01:36:31.399 --> 01:36:33.380
a panel of experts. Now, Richard Feynman was

01:36:33.380 --> 01:36:35.659
the one who was kind of the front runner and

01:36:35.659 --> 01:36:37.180
he's the most eloquent and he knew how to speak

01:36:37.180 --> 01:36:38.779
to the general public. And so he was the one

01:36:38.779 --> 01:36:40.380
that got all the attention for figuring out it

01:36:40.380 --> 01:36:42.920
was a washer ring that heated up or got cold.

01:36:42.960 --> 01:36:44.479
I forget what it was. Feynman figured that out?

01:36:44.579 --> 01:36:46.159
Yeah, Feynman figured that out. Wow. In addition

01:36:46.159 --> 01:36:48.239
to doing so many other amazing things. And chasing

01:36:48.239 --> 01:36:50.479
chicks, playing the bongos. What he did then

01:36:50.479 --> 01:36:52.319
would have gotten him fired today very quickly.

01:36:52.439 --> 01:36:55.399
Yes. Well, my dad's a physicist. So according

01:36:55.399 --> 01:36:57.720
to my dad, it was bongo drumming naked on the

01:36:57.720 --> 01:37:00.239
roof of Caltech. Oh. Yeah. So he took it to a

01:37:00.239 --> 01:37:01.800
whole other level. Also a guy who was very into

01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:04.520
float tanks. Oh, good for him. He really was

01:37:04.520 --> 01:37:06.619
into the float tank thing. I think like anybody

01:37:06.619 --> 01:37:09.520
who tries them gets into them. I've never tried.

01:37:09.720 --> 01:37:12.100
I know. We need to get you into one. But my prediction,

01:37:12.199 --> 01:37:16.140
my hypothesis is that it's dramatically changing

01:37:16.140 --> 01:37:19.359
that sensation piece of the equation so that

01:37:19.359 --> 01:37:21.680
your perception can now move and kind of float.

01:37:23.340 --> 01:37:26.939
No pun intended. It makes it hard to do this

01:37:26.939 --> 01:37:28.779
duration path outcome kind of rigid thinking

01:37:28.779 --> 01:37:31.319
in there because my understanding is that the

01:37:31.319 --> 01:37:33.500
salinity of the water and the temperature of

01:37:33.500 --> 01:37:35.619
the water makes it so that you kind of don't

01:37:35.619 --> 01:37:38.060
notice the boundary between yourself and the

01:37:38.060 --> 01:37:40.239
water. It becomes one environment. So Feynman

01:37:40.239 --> 01:37:42.560
actually talked about this as a way to access

01:37:42.560 --> 01:37:46.380
space -time relationships of the mind that he

01:37:46.380 --> 01:37:49.880
anchored to. physics principles. And so he was

01:37:49.880 --> 01:37:52.460
a big proponent of the float tank, I think also

01:37:52.460 --> 01:37:54.380
because he was a little afraid to try psychedelics.

01:37:54.380 --> 01:37:56.000
I want to talk to you about the float tank, but

01:37:56.000 --> 01:37:59.180
I don't want to steer away, right away from science

01:37:59.180 --> 01:38:01.340
and the responsibility of science, because I

01:38:01.340 --> 01:38:03.140
don't think the responsibility is in science.

01:38:03.260 --> 01:38:05.939
I think the problem is, and this is a new problem,

01:38:06.119 --> 01:38:08.779
the newfound ability to communicate online and

01:38:08.779 --> 01:38:11.199
reach massive amounts of people without any expertise

01:38:11.199 --> 01:38:14.239
whatsoever. That's what this podcast is. I mean,

01:38:14.260 --> 01:38:16.119
I've said a bunch of stupid shit on here that's

01:38:16.119 --> 01:38:19.300
not accurate. And you can get away with it. At

01:38:19.300 --> 01:38:22.859
least I'm ethical in it that if I do make mistakes,

01:38:23.159 --> 01:38:25.659
I will correct them. And I'll try to be as honest

01:38:25.659 --> 01:38:27.340
as I can about what I know or what I don't know.

01:38:27.500 --> 01:38:30.800
But when someone's slightly schizophrenic or

01:38:30.800 --> 01:38:34.039
delusional and they're more prone to believing

01:38:34.039 --> 01:38:37.340
in conspiracies because conspiracies, they activate

01:38:37.340 --> 01:38:39.640
some weird spot in your brain. And maybe we could

01:38:39.640 --> 01:38:41.119
talk about that. I don't know what that spot

01:38:41.119 --> 01:38:44.819
is. There's some weird reward mechanism that

01:38:44.819 --> 01:38:47.359
comes from discovering things that are hidden

01:38:47.359 --> 01:38:49.460
that people don't want you to find out, that

01:38:49.460 --> 01:38:51.260
everybody else doesn't know about. And you could

01:38:51.260 --> 01:38:53.979
be the fucking Paul Revere of 5G. And you could

01:38:53.979 --> 01:38:56.380
be the guy running around, you know, 5G is coming,

01:38:56.500 --> 01:38:59.460
5G is coming. There's something about that that

01:38:59.460 --> 01:39:01.760
really dumb people really gravitate towards.

01:39:01.819 --> 01:39:04.920
And some really smart people with some mental

01:39:04.920 --> 01:39:08.520
tics, some things that are off. And it's a real

01:39:08.520 --> 01:39:10.979
problem because it's a giant distraction. I don't

01:39:10.979 --> 01:39:13.220
think the responsibility lies in science because

01:39:13.220 --> 01:39:16.840
science is supposed to be about data, analyzing

01:39:16.840 --> 01:39:19.399
these things, coming up with cold, hard facts

01:39:19.399 --> 01:39:21.920
that are provable, right? Things you could show.

01:39:22.060 --> 01:39:24.800
This is repeatable. This is what the situation

01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:28.819
is, and this is how we know. A spokesperson for

01:39:28.819 --> 01:39:30.399
science would be wonderful, but there are people

01:39:30.399 --> 01:39:32.039
like that. There's Neil deGrasse Tyson who does

01:39:32.039 --> 01:39:34.319
a fantastic job. About the cosmos. Yes. I mean,

01:39:34.319 --> 01:39:37.210
I love his work, but there's this. There was

01:39:37.210 --> 01:39:39.989
this culture in the 80s and 90s around, you know,

01:39:39.989 --> 01:39:41.609
and I grew up sort of in this because my dad's

01:39:41.609 --> 01:39:43.710
a physicist. You know, he's a physicist. We spent

01:39:43.710 --> 01:39:46.229
some time around a lot of physicists. The cosmos

01:39:46.229 --> 01:39:48.970
and astrology, that gained immense popularity.

01:39:49.670 --> 01:39:53.550
It's very exciting and very interesting and mostly

01:39:53.550 --> 01:39:55.430
irrelevant to what we're dealing with right now

01:39:55.430 --> 01:39:59.310
in 2020. Right now, it's about biology, virology,

01:39:59.329 --> 01:40:03.289
epidemiology, and there has not been a voice

01:40:03.289 --> 01:40:06.319
for that. besides Fauci. And I think he's doing

01:40:06.319 --> 01:40:08.760
the best he can with what he's got. I do. I have

01:40:08.760 --> 01:40:11.600
to believe that. But I think a panel of experts

01:40:11.600 --> 01:40:14.260
who could appeal to different types of people

01:40:14.260 --> 01:40:17.359
through different types of mediums would assist

01:40:17.359 --> 01:40:19.380
in at least letting people know what the process

01:40:19.380 --> 01:40:21.720
is. You know, we've sort of said there are people

01:40:21.720 --> 01:40:23.859
out there who don't think COVID exists. You've

01:40:23.859 --> 01:40:25.619
got people that are just waiting for a vaccine.

01:40:25.720 --> 01:40:26.619
They're not going to leave their house until

01:40:26.619 --> 01:40:27.720
there's a vaccine. You've got people that are

01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:30.720
afraid of vaccines. There needs to be some structure

01:40:30.720 --> 01:40:32.939
of communication about what scientists are doing

01:40:32.939 --> 01:40:35.159
because there's incredible work happening in

01:40:35.159 --> 01:40:36.859
laboratories at Stanford, all over the world,

01:40:36.920 --> 01:40:39.800
trying to figure out the solution to this problem.

01:40:40.079 --> 01:40:44.180
And at the same time, people are very stressed.

01:40:44.359 --> 01:40:46.420
You know, for the person that doesn't have a

01:40:46.420 --> 01:40:49.619
W -2 or regular 1099 income, this period of time

01:40:49.619 --> 01:40:51.659
is immensely stressful. And the more stressful

01:40:51.659 --> 01:40:54.560
something, the more stressed a human or any animal

01:40:54.560 --> 01:40:56.840
gets, the easier it is to recruit them into.

01:40:57.479 --> 01:41:01.819
some sort of delusional thinking. Psychosis is

01:41:01.819 --> 01:41:05.380
defined as ascribing meaning to something for

01:41:05.380 --> 01:41:07.420
which there's none. If I suddenly tell you that

01:41:07.420 --> 01:41:09.359
the brick in that corner is sending me messages

01:41:09.359 --> 01:41:11.600
about what I should say next, that's breaking

01:41:11.600 --> 01:41:14.300
with our space -time understanding what's allowed

01:41:14.300 --> 01:41:17.800
here. People are doing that in subtle kind of

01:41:17.800 --> 01:41:20.359
incremental ways. Some of them might be diabolical

01:41:20.359 --> 01:41:24.680
and evil, but what we know is that the more stressed

01:41:24.680 --> 01:41:28.680
people are, the better People are able to recruit

01:41:28.680 --> 01:41:31.340
them into ideas where they can connect dots that

01:41:31.340 --> 01:41:33.239
otherwise might not be connected. It has everything

01:41:33.239 --> 01:41:36.319
to do with the way that the brain computes information.

01:41:36.800 --> 01:41:38.880
So I'm not saying a panel of experts would necessarily

01:41:38.880 --> 01:41:41.800
buffer us or inoculate us against those kind

01:41:41.800 --> 01:41:44.880
of forces. But I do think that there was a time

01:41:44.880 --> 01:41:46.140
in this country, at least when I was growing

01:41:46.140 --> 01:41:49.199
up, I'm 44 years old, where at least there was

01:41:49.199 --> 01:41:51.359
some faith that the figures that you saw on a

01:41:51.359 --> 01:41:53.260
screen or that were talking to you were putting

01:41:53.260 --> 01:41:55.449
in a best faith effort. I mean, there might have

01:41:55.449 --> 01:41:57.050
been a lot of shady stuff going on behind the

01:41:57.050 --> 01:41:59.210
scenes, but I think that has completely fallen

01:41:59.210 --> 01:42:02.390
away. And so now it's all, as you said, very

01:42:02.390 --> 01:42:04.529
aptly, it's all about following individuals who

01:42:04.529 --> 01:42:06.630
can be most convincing in the moment. It's about

01:42:06.630 --> 01:42:09.550
capturing people in these highly dopaminergic,

01:42:09.569 --> 01:42:12.649
anxious states where you can start leading them

01:42:12.649 --> 01:42:14.829
down a thought path. And pretty soon there's

01:42:14.829 --> 01:42:16.250
no notion of science. Pretty soon you're talking

01:42:16.250 --> 01:42:18.869
about flat earth and it's and it's scary. And

01:42:18.869 --> 01:42:20.989
other countries aren't doing this. China is not

01:42:20.989 --> 01:42:23.579
doing this in China. They are. They are working,

01:42:23.659 --> 01:42:26.020
chipping away. In Europe, they are working and

01:42:26.020 --> 01:42:28.939
chipping away in a way that is in keeping with

01:42:28.939 --> 01:42:32.020
the reality that has been broadly presented to

01:42:32.020 --> 01:42:34.100
them. Here, reality is getting very distorted.

01:42:34.460 --> 01:42:37.260
There's also a problem with – and it's not because

01:42:37.260 --> 01:42:41.979
of Fauci, but Fauci represents to a lot of people

01:42:41.979 --> 01:42:46.840
a point of ideological loyalty, right? You believe

01:42:46.840 --> 01:42:51.260
Fauci because you think Trump's a moron. I believe

01:42:51.260 --> 01:42:53.079
Fauci because I think he's a scientist who's

01:42:53.079 --> 01:42:54.899
got the best set of tools to look at the problem.

01:42:55.039 --> 01:42:56.420
Right. But you know what I'm saying? So anything

01:42:56.420 --> 01:42:59.520
that opposes his perspective gets diminished,

01:42:59.600 --> 01:43:02.300
even if it's a legitimate scientist that has

01:43:02.300 --> 01:43:07.739
an altered perspective. Or someone who instead

01:43:07.739 --> 01:43:12.640
wishes that we focus the public on how to strengthen

01:43:12.640 --> 01:43:15.000
the immune system and the techniques for strengthening

01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:17.159
the immune system, which we are aware of. These

01:43:17.159 --> 01:43:19.600
are real things. And you don't hear a peep out.

01:43:19.630 --> 01:43:23.850
Which is, to me, very frustrating. Me too. I'm

01:43:23.850 --> 01:43:25.630
very disappointed. I guess that's what I was

01:43:25.630 --> 01:43:28.090
saying poorly before and you said much more clearly

01:43:28.090 --> 01:43:30.930
now, which is, you know, I'm disappointed that

01:43:30.930 --> 01:43:33.229
he's the only person out there and the only voice,

01:43:33.289 --> 01:43:35.109
not because I don't believe what he's saying

01:43:35.109 --> 01:43:37.289
is valid, but because I think there are other

01:43:37.289 --> 01:43:39.329
things that are important. First of all, the

01:43:39.329 --> 01:43:43.949
stress problem has not been addressed. I work

01:43:43.949 --> 01:43:45.510
in my laboratory, but one of the reasons I'm

01:43:45.510 --> 01:43:47.449
getting out there and trying to talk to people

01:43:47.449 --> 01:43:49.310
about stress and these systems and trying to

01:43:49.310 --> 01:43:51.590
provide tools is because people are stressed.

01:43:51.710 --> 01:43:53.550
And for that person, whether or not they're wearing

01:43:53.550 --> 01:43:55.970
a mask and washing their hands 25 times a day

01:43:55.970 --> 01:43:59.050
and staying at home or going out, stress, there

01:43:59.050 --> 01:44:01.710
are tools for that. And we have an obligation

01:44:01.710 --> 01:44:04.710
to teach people those things. And there are tools

01:44:04.710 --> 01:44:06.579
for enhancing the immune system. And we need

01:44:06.579 --> 01:44:08.939
to teach people those things. Yeah, I wish that

01:44:08.939 --> 01:44:12.079
was a big part of the government, whether it's

01:44:12.079 --> 01:44:14.659
local government or national government, the

01:44:14.659 --> 01:44:17.659
focus of not just telling people to stay inside

01:44:17.659 --> 01:44:20.180
and be scared and wash your hands and wear a

01:44:20.180 --> 01:44:23.659
mask, do all those things, but also exercise,

01:44:23.880 --> 01:44:28.369
drink more water, take vitamins. You know, teach

01:44:28.369 --> 01:44:32.090
people meditation techniques. Give people some

01:44:32.090 --> 01:44:34.510
tools that can help them get the proper sleep

01:44:34.510 --> 01:44:36.489
that they need because I think these are all

01:44:36.489 --> 01:44:39.890
immense factors. I agree. I mean, the foundation

01:44:39.890 --> 01:44:44.029
of our well -being is through the very basic

01:44:44.029 --> 01:44:47.510
kind of almost boring stuff. It's hydrate, sleep.

01:44:48.740 --> 01:44:51.479
gratitude, social connection, nutrition, exercise.

01:44:51.960 --> 01:44:53.199
You start hearing about this thing and you kind

01:44:53.199 --> 01:44:55.180
of go, well, it's not exciting. It's not the

01:44:55.180 --> 01:44:58.140
magic pill. But I think of all that as kind of

01:44:58.140 --> 01:45:00.680
the tide that comes in that's required to bring

01:45:00.680 --> 01:45:02.779
the boat out to sea. I think people think about

01:45:02.779 --> 01:45:04.520
the thing that's going to trampoline them up

01:45:04.520 --> 01:45:07.659
to the highest position, that's going to suddenly

01:45:07.659 --> 01:45:09.920
turn them into a high performer. you know and

01:45:09.920 --> 01:45:12.420
um i have i'm doing some work with a former team

01:45:12.420 --> 01:45:14.880
guy his name is pat dosett and blake mycoskie

01:45:14.880 --> 01:45:17.000
who started tom shoes so just full disclosure

01:45:17.000 --> 01:45:18.600
because i have a position on their company board

01:45:18.600 --> 01:45:20.560
i want to do full disclosures not work in my

01:45:20.560 --> 01:45:23.119
lab and they've got this you know this company

01:45:23.119 --> 01:45:25.319
this program that's really about building foundational

01:45:25.319 --> 01:45:28.579
tools for people like for the every person that

01:45:28.579 --> 01:45:31.640
it's great but and i also feel like our government

01:45:31.640 --> 01:45:33.979
should be sending these messages out there Because

01:45:33.979 --> 01:45:35.920
we're really lacking that. And I think the instability

01:45:35.920 --> 01:45:38.800
of the situation that we see today has a lot,

01:45:38.859 --> 01:45:40.840
the psychological response to all this has a

01:45:40.840 --> 01:45:42.720
lot to do with the fact that we didn't hit COVID

01:45:42.720 --> 01:45:45.859
prepared. We didn't hit the situation prepared.

01:45:46.100 --> 01:45:48.979
The world was, you know, that the United States

01:45:48.979 --> 01:45:52.600
is badly obese. It's a real serious medical problem.

01:45:52.699 --> 01:45:54.500
I'm not even touching the psychology, just medical

01:45:54.500 --> 01:45:58.340
problem, badly obese and stressed. I'm going

01:45:58.340 --> 01:46:00.579
to send you. I'm going to send this to you, Jamie,

01:46:00.640 --> 01:46:02.020
so you can put this up on the screen because

01:46:02.020 --> 01:46:04.140
Bridget Phetasy sent me this today, and it's

01:46:04.140 --> 01:46:07.579
fucking appropriate and hilarious. And it's about

01:46:07.579 --> 01:46:10.279
what we're going through right now in terms of

01:46:10.279 --> 01:46:13.340
obesity and stress and all these poor people.

01:46:13.680 --> 01:46:15.340
Hold on a second. Give me a second here. I'm

01:46:15.340 --> 01:46:17.220
going to find it. God damn, I got a lot of text

01:46:17.220 --> 01:46:20.039
messages. Woo! I can only imagine. Oh, I can't

01:46:20.039 --> 01:46:21.659
even imagine. I'm like, what the fuck is this?

01:46:22.640 --> 01:46:28.359
Sorry. One more second. God damn, I have 150

01:46:28.359 --> 01:46:38.380
new text messages. Here. Here we go. I'm sending

01:46:38.380 --> 01:46:43.300
this to you right now, Jamie. A lot of dead air

01:46:43.300 --> 01:46:49.880
here, kids. Here we go, Jamie. Bam, bam. Well,

01:46:50.060 --> 01:46:51.739
I will say my physician friends tell me that

01:46:51.739 --> 01:46:55.380
one of the major threats to... You know, one

01:46:55.380 --> 01:46:57.619
of the major risk factors is obesity. Yeah, this

01:46:57.619 --> 01:47:03.020
is. Would you look at a lady that weighs about

01:47:03.020 --> 01:47:07.539
400 pounds in a scooter yelling at a fit woman,

01:47:07.640 --> 01:47:09.960
put a mask on, you're putting my health at risk.

01:47:10.359 --> 01:47:13.289
And she's got a McDonald's bag in her hand. that's

01:47:13.289 --> 01:47:15.369
a lot of what's going on. I was hoping that what

01:47:15.369 --> 01:47:17.510
this was going to do was it was going to be a

01:47:17.510 --> 01:47:19.949
wake -up call for people, and I was going to

01:47:19.949 --> 01:47:23.250
see obese people really take their health seriously

01:47:23.250 --> 01:47:26.430
and go, well, while I'm alive, what are the primary

01:47:26.430 --> 01:47:29.250
factors that lead to really bad results with

01:47:29.250 --> 01:47:32.529
COVID? Well, according to the doctors that treated

01:47:32.529 --> 01:47:34.930
patients in Manhattan, the number one factor

01:47:34.930 --> 01:47:38.000
was obesity. That was number one. And so there's

01:47:38.000 --> 01:47:41.380
older people that, you know, did way better than

01:47:41.380 --> 01:47:44.060
young people that were obese. So it's not just

01:47:44.060 --> 01:47:46.140
an age -related thing. It's an obesity -related

01:47:46.140 --> 01:47:49.899
thing. But people, as long as they're okay, they

01:47:49.899 --> 01:47:52.380
can stay inside and wear a mask, they're fucking

01:47:52.380 --> 01:47:54.960
healthy. They'll just eat ice cream and watch

01:47:54.960 --> 01:47:57.340
TV and hope someone comes up with a solution.

01:47:57.439 --> 01:48:00.479
The daddy government comes along and fixes the

01:48:00.479 --> 01:48:03.010
problem. It should be a wake -up call. It should

01:48:03.010 --> 01:48:04.829
be a health -related wake -up call for people.

01:48:05.069 --> 01:48:07.550
It should. I mean, I think that we saw in the

01:48:07.550 --> 01:48:10.850
80s and 90s, you know, fast food and cheap calories

01:48:10.850 --> 01:48:13.529
became so prominent. And we see the effects of

01:48:13.529 --> 01:48:16.649
that now, right? That's here now. The problem

01:48:16.649 --> 01:48:19.649
is now. I think the other problem that's happened

01:48:19.649 --> 01:48:21.350
over the last 10 years, and we're starting to

01:48:21.350 --> 01:48:23.229
see this emerge in much in the same way that

01:48:23.229 --> 01:48:26.569
we've seen obesity emerge, is... the phone and

01:48:26.569 --> 01:48:28.590
i love the phone i'm born and raised in silicon

01:48:28.590 --> 01:48:31.609
valley i use the phone i love the phone but it

01:48:31.609 --> 01:48:34.590
is a complicated device because we are bringing

01:48:34.590 --> 01:48:36.930
a ton of our attention to it social media is

01:48:36.930 --> 01:48:38.909
very complicated it has wonderful aspects but

01:48:38.909 --> 01:48:43.130
there are ways in which it's converting and engaging

01:48:43.130 --> 01:48:45.609
neuroplasticity in the young brain, the way it's

01:48:45.609 --> 01:48:47.770
engaging our attention. Think about how much

01:48:47.770 --> 01:48:49.510
attention people will place on that little phone,

01:48:49.609 --> 01:48:51.850
but they can't read two pages of a book. That

01:48:51.850 --> 01:48:55.289
worries me. And not because I'm a university

01:48:55.289 --> 01:48:57.670
professor and I need everybody doing equations

01:48:57.670 --> 01:48:59.909
or learning about neuroscience. Not at all. I

01:48:59.909 --> 01:49:02.909
just worry about the neuroplasticity of learning

01:49:02.909 --> 01:49:06.050
to be defocused and scatterbrained. There is

01:49:06.050 --> 01:49:09.869
a time to put the brain into states of space

01:49:09.869 --> 01:49:12.850
-time fluidity to come up with new comedy routines

01:49:12.850 --> 01:49:15.050
or scientific ideas. You know, you could take

01:49:15.050 --> 01:49:17.449
a walk. You can run. You can put the float tanks.

01:49:17.590 --> 01:49:19.189
There are a bunch of different ways to do this.

01:49:19.390 --> 01:49:24.630
But the phone is starting to gobble up all that

01:49:24.630 --> 01:49:27.729
dopamine and all that space -time duration path

01:49:27.729 --> 01:49:30.949
outcome stuff. And we are wasting our cognition

01:49:30.949 --> 01:49:34.640
and we're wasting the most. Precious gift we

01:49:34.640 --> 01:49:36.500
were given by Mother Nature and evolution is

01:49:36.500 --> 01:49:39.300
a brain that can teach itself things and that

01:49:39.300 --> 01:49:41.859
can predict things and that can look at the past,

01:49:42.000 --> 01:49:44.880
can learn from elders and gain wisdom. I mean,

01:49:44.899 --> 01:49:47.100
all that stuff is what we were put here to do.

01:49:47.439 --> 01:49:51.060
And, you know, my dad said, you know, he thinks

01:49:51.060 --> 01:49:52.720
I asked him if he thinks there are other galaxies,

01:49:52.739 --> 01:49:54.479
you know, because he's more versed in the in

01:49:54.479 --> 01:49:56.460
physics and the cosmos than I am. And he said,

01:49:56.500 --> 01:49:58.460
I don't know. But if there was a. they probably

01:49:58.460 --> 01:50:00.600
extinguish themselves with social media because

01:50:00.600 --> 01:50:03.300
it's like mental chewing gum. People just kind

01:50:03.300 --> 01:50:06.020
of throwing away their cognition. And the dopamine

01:50:06.020 --> 01:50:07.600
thing, it's not that they're getting so much

01:50:07.600 --> 01:50:09.520
dopamine from using the phone. It doesn't feel

01:50:09.520 --> 01:50:11.600
like a big win. It's that they're spending it

01:50:11.600 --> 01:50:14.380
out, like spending $5 bills all day long. Pretty

01:50:14.380 --> 01:50:16.920
soon you're broke and you're exhausted. And so

01:50:16.920 --> 01:50:20.399
I worry about our use of these devices and what

01:50:20.399 --> 01:50:22.319
it's doing to our neurology. But I also know

01:50:22.319 --> 01:50:24.699
they're extremely important. Alan Levinowitz,

01:50:24.819 --> 01:50:26.680
who was on the podcast recently, had a book called

01:50:26.680 --> 01:50:30.220
Natural. And it's one of the things that he talked

01:50:30.220 --> 01:50:33.380
about in the book was that what we're doing is

01:50:33.380 --> 01:50:37.899
essentially the – it's weird. And he talked about

01:50:37.899 --> 01:50:39.979
this on Twitter and that's how I engaged with

01:50:39.979 --> 01:50:44.390
him. We're taking most of our information and

01:50:44.390 --> 01:50:47.289
we're making it processed information by getting

01:50:47.289 --> 01:50:50.090
things off of Twitter, by getting things off

01:50:50.090 --> 01:50:52.829
of social media. You're getting this very weird

01:50:52.829 --> 01:50:55.489
interaction with people. It's boiled down to

01:50:55.489 --> 01:50:58.710
this very strange 280 -character version that's

01:50:58.710 --> 01:51:01.050
not equivalent to an actual conversation with

01:51:01.050 --> 01:51:03.850
a human being or reading a book or watching a

01:51:03.850 --> 01:51:05.289
documentary or any of those things. It's this

01:51:05.289 --> 01:51:09.189
weird thing that's most of the information that

01:51:09.189 --> 01:51:12.880
you're receiving. And if you look at human beings

01:51:12.880 --> 01:51:15.880
that are on processed food diets, you see the

01:51:15.880 --> 01:51:18.800
body behaves very poorly and it just reacts very

01:51:18.800 --> 01:51:21.140
poorly and it's terrible. It's just not good

01:51:21.140 --> 01:51:24.220
for it. It's unhealthy. Well, equally unhealthy

01:51:24.220 --> 01:51:27.880
is processed information. And this was his argument

01:51:27.880 --> 01:51:29.140
in his book. That's a great argument. It's a

01:51:29.140 --> 01:51:33.279
great argument. I think we are in an adolescent

01:51:33.279 --> 01:51:36.699
stage of this technological intervention. And

01:51:36.699 --> 01:51:40.680
this will lead to whatever Neuralink is going

01:51:40.680 --> 01:51:43.619
to be and whatever the successor to Neuralink

01:51:43.619 --> 01:51:45.840
is going to be. I think things are going to get

01:51:45.840 --> 01:51:49.779
way weirder, I think. But there's potential for

01:51:49.779 --> 01:51:53.199
a beneficial aspect to it. And I think one of

01:51:53.199 --> 01:51:57.039
the potentially beneficial aspects is that it

01:51:57.039 --> 01:52:01.670
seems like all of technology is moving us. At

01:52:01.670 --> 01:52:04.229
least in this virtual sense of using phones and

01:52:04.229 --> 01:52:09.930
computers, the boundaries between people and

01:52:09.930 --> 01:52:12.430
information are becoming smaller and smaller.

01:52:12.850 --> 01:52:16.510
The problem is the boundaries between physical

01:52:16.510 --> 01:52:19.729
people are becoming greater. There's more separation,

01:52:19.989 --> 01:52:21.750
particularly with COVID, right? There's more

01:52:21.750 --> 01:52:24.789
physical separation between people. But the boundaries

01:52:24.789 --> 01:52:27.930
between being able to access the thoughts of

01:52:27.930 --> 01:52:32.529
people is smaller. So the beneficial aspects

01:52:32.529 --> 01:52:35.750
of what we talked about with even your immune

01:52:35.750 --> 01:52:38.430
system and your health and just overall mental

01:52:38.430 --> 01:52:42.369
well -being, community, love, friendship, all

01:52:42.369 --> 01:52:44.090
those things, you need to be right there. You

01:52:44.090 --> 01:52:45.390
need to be right there. You need to hug each

01:52:45.390 --> 01:52:48.789
other, all that stuff. That's crucial. That's

01:52:48.789 --> 01:52:52.149
everything. And hardwired into us. And with COVID,

01:52:52.390 --> 01:52:55.409
that's, first of all, everyone's scary because

01:52:55.409 --> 01:52:57.590
everyone could give you the bug and could kill

01:52:57.590 --> 01:53:00.300
you or kill your grandma. And then on top of

01:53:00.300 --> 01:53:04.000
that, you're engaging in this processed form

01:53:04.000 --> 01:53:06.859
of communication all day long. And most of it

01:53:06.859 --> 01:53:09.340
is toxic. Right. I mean, if you're engaging with

01:53:09.340 --> 01:53:11.880
people on social media, then I mean, I've talked

01:53:11.880 --> 01:53:13.260
about this multiple times in the show. There's

01:53:13.260 --> 01:53:15.140
people I follow that don't even know I'm following

01:53:15.140 --> 01:53:16.479
them because I just have them bookmarked because

01:53:16.479 --> 01:53:19.039
they're just so toxic. I go and just I want to

01:53:19.039 --> 01:53:21.180
know what they're doing. I'll just go to them

01:53:21.180 --> 01:53:23.420
like, look at this motherfucker. He's on Twitter

01:53:23.420 --> 01:53:28.039
12 hours a day yelling at people. arguing constantly

01:53:28.039 --> 01:53:31.779
and I just imagine that their mind is a fucking

01:53:31.779 --> 01:53:37.039
chaos, just a wreck, just potholes and burning

01:53:37.039 --> 01:53:39.840
buildings. Their head is just filled with shit.

01:53:40.439 --> 01:53:43.899
But it's effective. In a terrible way, it's effective.

01:53:44.060 --> 01:53:47.079
It's like in the engineers talk about signal

01:53:47.079 --> 01:53:49.779
versus noise. And the brain is essentially an

01:53:49.779 --> 01:53:51.939
engineered machine. It looks for where signal

01:53:51.939 --> 01:53:54.979
is high and above the noise. And so there really

01:53:54.979 --> 01:53:58.340
is a payoff nowadays, a short -term deleterious

01:53:58.340 --> 01:54:02.279
payoff, but payoff nonetheless for being able

01:54:02.279 --> 01:54:05.359
to recruit people's attention, recruit their

01:54:05.359 --> 01:54:07.920
autonomic nervous system, get them into those

01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:10.630
modes of – having to click and follow and scroll

01:54:10.630 --> 01:54:13.430
now i agree that i think social media like for

01:54:13.430 --> 01:54:15.090
instance i teach some science on social media

01:54:15.090 --> 01:54:17.449
i've managed to great make great connections

01:54:17.449 --> 01:54:20.529
through social media but we have to be very judicious

01:54:20.529 --> 01:54:22.909
in our use of it and that's hard for most people

01:54:22.909 --> 01:54:24.670
and what i think is going to happen is that we're

01:54:24.670 --> 01:54:26.630
going to talk about signal noise i think what's

01:54:26.630 --> 01:54:28.850
going to happen is we're going to start selecting

01:54:28.850 --> 01:54:31.130
for people that are very good at controlling

01:54:31.130 --> 01:54:34.229
their attention are very good at separating themselves

01:54:35.159 --> 01:54:37.000
from technology as well as using technology.

01:54:37.279 --> 01:54:39.720
And so for people that are just rabidly consuming

01:54:39.720 --> 01:54:41.539
technology and information and thinking this

01:54:41.539 --> 01:54:44.199
is the way to live a good life or to get ahead,

01:54:44.359 --> 01:54:46.399
they're actually just falling into the noise.

01:54:46.520 --> 01:54:48.159
And the people that are, I think it's one of

01:54:48.159 --> 01:54:50.260
the reasons why a select set of individuals have

01:54:50.260 --> 01:54:52.920
been so effective at controlling the landscape,

01:54:53.060 --> 01:54:55.600
the political landscape, the lots of landscapes,

01:54:55.779 --> 01:54:58.989
let's just say that. And I think that We need

01:54:58.989 --> 01:55:00.970
to think about whether or not we're in the noise

01:55:00.970 --> 01:55:03.310
or whether or not we're paying attention to these

01:55:03.310 --> 01:55:06.250
big peaks of signal. We're getting recruited.

01:55:06.430 --> 01:55:09.029
We're getting kind of groomed by these things.

01:55:09.270 --> 01:55:12.350
And it is scary. And at the same time, I agree.

01:55:12.409 --> 01:55:14.350
I think that eventually we will break through

01:55:14.350 --> 01:55:17.239
this. i do because that's what the human animal

01:55:17.239 --> 01:55:19.479
is really good at yeah i think we're in the technological

01:55:19.479 --> 01:55:21.619
dark ages that's what i think i think we very

01:55:21.619 --> 01:55:23.680
well i think we're just some weird thing where

01:55:23.680 --> 01:55:25.779
there's a lot of people going this is not good

01:55:25.779 --> 01:55:28.279
kids this is not good but most people like you

01:55:28.279 --> 01:55:32.079
and just in the just wading into the fray because

01:55:32.079 --> 01:55:34.359
it feels kind of good yeah well especially when

01:55:34.359 --> 01:55:35.960
you don't have real meaning or purpose in your

01:55:35.960 --> 01:55:37.779
life because you're unemployed and you're stuck

01:55:37.779 --> 01:55:40.479
at home because of covid and you're scared well

01:55:40.479 --> 01:55:42.939
that's that's a way that people occupy their

01:55:42.939 --> 01:55:45.449
mind and engage and you You're seeing a big uptick.

01:55:45.529 --> 01:55:48.069
Yeah. Big uptick in – well, at least the people

01:55:48.069 --> 01:55:50.310
that I'm paying attention to and the toxicity

01:55:50.310 --> 01:55:54.050
of their exchanges. It's just – Well, this is

01:55:54.050 --> 01:55:57.590
kind of scary and I'm sort of hesitant to just

01:55:57.590 --> 01:55:59.229
kind of flip to another research study. But there

01:55:59.229 --> 01:56:01.229
was this guy in the 60s, this guy Robert Heath,

01:56:01.390 --> 01:56:03.970
who didn't need patients who had epilepsy. He

01:56:03.970 --> 01:56:06.050
just got permission to record from the human

01:56:06.050 --> 01:56:08.270
brain. And so he put electrodes into their brains

01:56:08.270 --> 01:56:11.170
and he let them stimulate any area of the brain

01:56:11.170 --> 01:56:14.329
that they wanted. This was like – He just did

01:56:14.329 --> 01:56:18.310
it. And they'd stimulate one area and they'd

01:56:18.310 --> 01:56:19.930
feel kind of drunk or they stimulate another

01:56:19.930 --> 01:56:21.770
area. They'd feel sexual arousal. They stimulate

01:56:21.770 --> 01:56:24.069
another and they start laughing. The number one

01:56:24.069 --> 01:56:27.510
area that people like to stimulate created a

01:56:27.510 --> 01:56:31.369
sense of mild frustration and anger, which is

01:56:31.369 --> 01:56:33.529
totally perplexing on the face of it. You say

01:56:33.529 --> 01:56:36.250
like, why would people like that more than sexual

01:56:36.250 --> 01:56:38.329
arousal or feeling drunk or happy or giddy or

01:56:38.329 --> 01:56:41.569
whatever? It turns out. That this dopamine system

01:56:41.569 --> 01:56:43.329
we were talking about earlier is tethered to

01:56:43.329 --> 01:56:46.750
that. And it very likely explains not just the

01:56:46.750 --> 01:56:48.729
human animal, but all animals ability to lean

01:56:48.729 --> 01:56:51.010
into challenge in order to acquire more resources

01:56:51.010 --> 01:56:53.529
to fight and overcome that. You know, if you

01:56:53.529 --> 01:56:55.409
had a bunch of whole species where everyone just

01:56:55.409 --> 01:56:57.470
backed away from any frustration and challenge,

01:56:57.609 --> 01:57:00.109
that would be very problematic. And so right

01:57:00.109 --> 01:57:02.649
now I see us in the state of extreme anger and

01:57:02.649 --> 01:57:06.140
frustration or mild anger and frustration. Some

01:57:06.140 --> 01:57:07.979
people are going to drill through this and they're

01:57:07.979 --> 01:57:10.039
going to make things work. They're going to Goggins

01:57:10.039 --> 01:57:13.399
it to make it the verb. And a lot of people are

01:57:13.399 --> 01:57:15.380
just going to feed that frustration and anger

01:57:15.380 --> 01:57:17.319
but in a loop. It's just a closed loop where

01:57:17.319 --> 01:57:18.720
they're just clicking and scrolling and clicking

01:57:18.720 --> 01:57:21.199
and scrolling. And they're not building anything

01:57:21.199 --> 01:57:24.399
out of that. So this circuit is really important.

01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:26.279
It's actually part of the circuit that underlies

01:57:26.279 --> 01:57:27.920
the state that we would call courage. And my

01:57:27.920 --> 01:57:29.579
lab has worked on it and this relates to some

01:57:29.579 --> 01:57:32.960
of the stuff done with military groups. It those

01:57:32.960 --> 01:57:35.260
states of courage were designed to accomplish

01:57:35.260 --> 01:57:39.979
specific goals, you know, find food, find mates.

01:57:40.039 --> 01:57:41.560
And then in the world of military, you know,

01:57:41.579 --> 01:57:44.420
conquer this or learn that and, you know, learn

01:57:44.420 --> 01:57:47.819
a new skill. Right now, the phone in many ways

01:57:47.819 --> 01:57:49.659
is hijacking some of that circuitry at a low

01:57:49.659 --> 01:57:52.659
level. And it's it's never the subtle stuff is

01:57:52.659 --> 01:57:54.729
the stuff that scares me. It's, you know, obviously

01:57:54.729 --> 01:57:56.670
I'm very disturbed when I see rioting and looting,

01:57:56.710 --> 01:57:59.409
but when I see a technology that is kind of gnawing

01:57:59.409 --> 01:58:02.149
away at our neurology little by little, and then

01:58:02.149 --> 01:58:03.590
we kind of go, oh my goodness, we can't cope

01:58:03.590 --> 01:58:05.550
with life and what's being thrown at us. I think

01:58:05.550 --> 01:58:08.140
that's when. I think we really need to look at

01:58:08.140 --> 01:58:10.180
what that neural circuitry was built for and

01:58:10.180 --> 01:58:12.100
start building new technologies to take us out

01:58:12.100 --> 01:58:14.680
of this mess. Yeah, that's what I'm hoping the

01:58:14.680 --> 01:58:18.460
future of these, whether it's Neuralink or some

01:58:18.460 --> 01:58:21.539
other sort of immersive technology that allows

01:58:21.539 --> 01:58:23.380
people to communicate in a very different way.

01:58:23.579 --> 01:58:25.140
You know, when Elon is saying you're going to

01:58:25.140 --> 01:58:27.899
be able to talk without using words, what I'm

01:58:27.899 --> 01:58:32.119
really hoping, and this sounds really crazy,

01:58:32.180 --> 01:58:37.210
but I think what could help. is if we could read

01:58:37.210 --> 01:58:43.029
thoughts and clear intentions, really understand

01:58:43.029 --> 01:58:46.350
intentions versus interpretation of intentions.

01:58:46.930 --> 01:58:49.369
Like someone could say something sarcastically

01:58:49.369 --> 01:58:51.170
and you could read it the wrong way and you can

01:58:51.170 --> 01:58:54.109
get upset at them. If you read it in text, it's

01:58:54.109 --> 01:58:56.250
even more easy to misinterpret what someone's

01:58:56.250 --> 01:59:02.350
saying or to purposely, deceptively. frame what

01:59:02.350 --> 01:59:04.810
they're trying to say. But if you can just read

01:59:04.810 --> 01:59:08.689
someone's mind, we're going to have a much better

01:59:08.689 --> 01:59:12.069
understanding of each other and the rewards versus

01:59:12.069 --> 01:59:16.189
the positives versus negatives of holding on

01:59:16.189 --> 01:59:20.369
to these really toxic patterns that people are

01:59:20.369 --> 01:59:23.409
swimming in right now with social media. I agree.

01:59:23.510 --> 01:59:25.770
And I do think that neuroplasticity, in addition

01:59:25.770 --> 01:59:27.970
to brain machine interface, So it probably will

01:59:27.970 --> 01:59:30.430
involve machines that we put on our faces or

01:59:30.430 --> 01:59:33.350
whatever. But neuroplasticity is the way out

01:59:33.350 --> 01:59:35.170
of this, right? I mean that's what the brain

01:59:35.170 --> 01:59:37.430
can do. It can learn new contingencies, new ways

01:59:37.430 --> 01:59:39.869
of relating. That's why I'm so adamant about

01:59:39.869 --> 01:59:42.229
understanding this process and really feeling

01:59:42.229 --> 01:59:45.829
so much importance on – especially with kids

01:59:45.829 --> 01:59:47.789
because it's all so passive. Like their brains

01:59:47.789 --> 01:59:50.789
are just passively shaped by experience. So that

01:59:50.789 --> 01:59:53.010
can be a little scary to people. It's also beautiful

01:59:53.010 --> 01:59:56.239
because it means that – You set one proper intention

01:59:56.239 --> 01:59:58.899
or one rule that they should learn and adopt,

01:59:59.180 --> 02:00:01.739
and that can have a long -lasting effect. The

02:00:01.739 --> 02:00:03.699
ability to de -stress themselves, self -soothe,

02:00:03.739 --> 02:00:07.399
the ability to work through a hard tangle of

02:00:07.399 --> 02:00:10.420
a problem. interpersonally or academically, whatever

02:00:10.420 --> 02:00:13.399
problem, that can be done. It's just that we,

02:00:13.439 --> 02:00:15.300
I do think, especially in this country, we've

02:00:15.300 --> 02:00:17.020
learned to back away from that internal sense

02:00:17.020 --> 02:00:19.500
of agitation. And, you know, going back to what

02:00:19.500 --> 02:00:20.859
we were talking about earlier, that agitation

02:00:20.859 --> 02:00:23.739
is the first requirement for getting plasticity.

02:00:23.779 --> 02:00:25.800
There's no way around that. And we have this

02:00:25.800 --> 02:00:28.079
kind of obsession with flow states, which I think

02:00:28.079 --> 02:00:30.260
are great, and awe and all this stuff. And we

02:00:30.260 --> 02:00:34.579
think that's the portal to it. But I think, I'm

02:00:34.579 --> 02:00:36.539
certain, actually, that it's not the portal.

02:00:36.579 --> 02:00:39.960
The portal to Changing the brain is these high

02:00:39.960 --> 02:00:42.260
urgency, high attentional states followed by

02:00:42.260 --> 02:00:44.500
rest and just keep going, toggling back and forth

02:00:44.500 --> 02:00:46.479
and back and forth. That is what's really important,

02:00:46.619 --> 02:00:50.079
right? That you cannot strive for a life of total

02:00:50.079 --> 02:00:51.960
relaxation because you're not going to get shit

02:00:51.960 --> 02:00:55.359
done. There's nothing there. It's not the active

02:00:55.359 --> 02:00:58.960
state of the human mind. It doesn't thrive under

02:00:58.960 --> 02:01:01.989
those conditions. But we're all so concerned

02:01:01.989 --> 02:01:04.789
about stress and we're so concerned about the

02:01:04.789 --> 02:01:07.850
pressures of whether you're in some sort of a

02:01:07.850 --> 02:01:11.189
competitive environment or a job that you're

02:01:11.189 --> 02:01:14.770
involved in that requires an immense amount of

02:01:14.770 --> 02:01:17.630
your focus and your attention. We're all striving

02:01:17.630 --> 02:01:21.270
for that state where you're like a monk in a

02:01:21.270 --> 02:01:24.210
lotus position. not doing anything now that seems

02:01:24.210 --> 02:01:27.229
terrible to me because it's divorced from everything

02:01:27.229 --> 02:01:29.449
we know about competition winning in the brain

02:01:29.449 --> 02:01:32.250
yeah there's a cool set of experiments that i

02:01:32.250 --> 02:01:34.109
think you might especially appreciate given your

02:01:34.109 --> 02:01:36.449
background in martial arts which is called the

02:01:36.449 --> 02:01:39.350
tube test where they take two rats or two mice

02:01:39.350 --> 02:01:41.670
they put them in a tube typically it's male mice

02:01:41.670 --> 02:01:43.670
but also female mice and they start fighting

02:01:43.670 --> 02:01:47.390
for position in that tube one mouse pushes the

02:01:47.390 --> 02:01:50.659
other mouse out or rat inevitably That one is

02:01:50.659 --> 02:01:52.100
the winner. The one that got pushed out is the

02:01:52.100 --> 02:01:54.699
loser. We know that statistically, if you put

02:01:54.699 --> 02:01:57.159
those mice back into another tube test, even

02:01:57.159 --> 02:01:59.560
with another mouse, the winner has a higher probability

02:01:59.560 --> 02:02:01.899
of winning and the loser has a higher probability

02:02:01.899 --> 02:02:06.000
of losing. Even if you push the winner from behind,

02:02:06.180 --> 02:02:09.140
so you take a loser and you push it from behind

02:02:09.140 --> 02:02:11.560
with a stick and it wins, even if it doesn't

02:02:11.560 --> 02:02:14.850
win on its own effort. it becomes a winner. Now,

02:02:14.850 --> 02:02:16.909
this is totally weird. And for about two decades,

02:02:17.050 --> 02:02:18.829
this really perplexed neuroscientists, and this

02:02:18.829 --> 02:02:20.710
was taught in psychology classes, but not neuroscience

02:02:20.710 --> 02:02:23.609
classes. So in the last five years, neuroscientists

02:02:23.609 --> 02:02:25.369
come in, we have a lot of new tools now that

02:02:25.369 --> 02:02:27.470
let us monitor the brain and look at the brain

02:02:27.470 --> 02:02:29.670
in real time as rodents or people are doing these

02:02:29.670 --> 02:02:33.180
kinds of things. And so They figured out that

02:02:33.180 --> 02:02:35.460
there's a specific area of the frontal cortex

02:02:35.460 --> 02:02:38.460
that becomes more active in the winner and less

02:02:38.460 --> 02:02:41.460
active in the loser. So much so that if you shut

02:02:41.460 --> 02:02:43.159
down that brain area, the winner suddenly becomes

02:02:43.159 --> 02:02:45.420
a loser. You increase activity in the loser,

02:02:45.520 --> 02:02:48.819
it becomes the winner. So you ask yourself, what

02:02:48.819 --> 02:02:51.600
in the world is this brain activity or brain

02:02:51.600 --> 02:02:54.939
area doing? It turns out it's taking the feeling

02:02:54.939 --> 02:02:57.439
of stress and arousal, which both of them are

02:02:57.439 --> 02:03:00.390
experiencing. It's a battle. And it converts

02:03:00.390 --> 02:03:03.289
it to more steps of forward movement per unit

02:03:03.289 --> 02:03:07.010
time. It's just forward movement. And so one

02:03:07.010 --> 02:03:09.510
animal is feeling stressed and is pausing more

02:03:09.510 --> 02:03:11.810
or is backing up. The other animal is feeling

02:03:11.810 --> 02:03:13.949
the same level of stress and is moving forward,

02:03:14.090 --> 02:03:16.310
just physically. And it's wild because you can

02:03:16.310 --> 02:03:19.329
even take an arena, make it really cold, which

02:03:19.329 --> 02:03:22.310
mice don't like, put a warm heat lamp in the

02:03:22.310 --> 02:03:25.489
corner, and the animal that won at the tube test

02:03:25.489 --> 02:03:29.640
gets the sweet spot. Every single time. And so

02:03:29.640 --> 02:03:32.560
what this says is that those are mice. We're

02:03:32.560 --> 02:03:34.640
humans. My lab's been looking at this. We had

02:03:34.640 --> 02:03:36.520
a paper a few years ago identifying the area

02:03:36.520 --> 02:03:38.579
in the brain that actually leads to forward movement

02:03:38.579 --> 02:03:41.579
and rewards it with a dopamine reward. This was

02:03:41.579 --> 02:03:42.939
a paper we published in Nature. The area of the

02:03:42.939 --> 02:03:46.960
brain is interesting only because it maps exactly

02:03:46.960 --> 02:03:50.399
to that brain area that Robert Heath found people

02:03:50.399 --> 02:03:53.439
like to stimulate. frustration and anger. So

02:03:53.439 --> 02:03:55.340
frustration and anger were designed to get us

02:03:55.340 --> 02:03:57.560
to move forward adaptively. Now, I don't know

02:03:57.560 --> 02:03:59.180
how this plays out in the octagon where you're

02:03:59.180 --> 02:04:01.420
seeing somebody get beat up and, you know, but

02:04:01.420 --> 02:04:03.119
and then they're all of a sudden they're winning

02:04:03.119 --> 02:04:05.880
and it's switching back and forth. But, you know,

02:04:05.880 --> 02:04:07.640
my dream experiment would be to record from the

02:04:07.640 --> 02:04:10.420
brains of those guys in real time. We don't have

02:04:10.420 --> 02:04:12.180
the tech to do this right now, but someday we

02:04:12.180 --> 02:04:15.199
will. And I bet you that every forward step or

02:04:15.199 --> 02:04:17.439
perception that you have an advantage over the

02:04:17.439 --> 02:04:22.460
other guy or gal. leads to a dopamine increase,

02:04:22.739 --> 02:04:25.819
lowers that norepinephrine, and allows them to

02:04:25.819 --> 02:04:29.039
keep moving forward. They get energy. It's not

02:04:29.039 --> 02:04:32.039
gassing at the level of can't breathe or gassing

02:04:32.039 --> 02:04:35.779
at the level of conditioning. Something's happening

02:04:35.779 --> 02:04:38.979
neurally. So as a society right now, we are stressed,

02:04:39.079 --> 02:04:41.100
and this is not the time to back off, go into

02:04:41.100 --> 02:04:43.479
the lotus position. And people come at me sometimes.

02:04:43.779 --> 02:04:45.560
I do think we need tools to buffer stress. I

02:04:45.560 --> 02:04:47.020
want to be clear about that. I don't want people

02:04:47.020 --> 02:04:49.729
stressed all the time or seeking stress. Goodness,

02:04:49.890 --> 02:04:54.550
we were given and we were endowed with this amazing

02:04:54.550 --> 02:04:56.710
neurology that allows us to do this. We did it

02:04:56.710 --> 02:04:59.350
in famine. We did this with foreign invaders.

02:04:59.390 --> 02:05:01.770
We did this with animals and storms. And we did

02:05:01.770 --> 02:05:04.350
this. And here we are. We've got severe challenges.

02:05:04.390 --> 02:05:07.630
But forward movement, balanced by rest, is the

02:05:07.630 --> 02:05:10.369
solution that's worked for us for tens of thousands

02:05:10.369 --> 02:05:12.050
of years. And it's what's going to work now.

02:05:12.229 --> 02:05:15.010
And it all comes back to just a few select brain

02:05:15.010 --> 02:05:17.369
areas because this is a primitive situation we're

02:05:17.369 --> 02:05:20.180
in. It's not a sophisticated situation. Yeah,

02:05:20.260 --> 02:05:25.020
that's an uncomfortable reality for a lot of

02:05:25.020 --> 02:05:29.319
people, that the struggle is good, right? That

02:05:29.319 --> 02:05:31.859
there's benefits to it, particularly if you're

02:05:31.859 --> 02:05:33.800
looking for growth and also if you're looking

02:05:33.800 --> 02:05:38.149
for stimulation and a sense of meaning. People,

02:05:38.250 --> 02:05:40.369
for whatever reason, are hardwired to try to

02:05:40.369 --> 02:05:42.409
figure things out, to try to get better at things

02:05:42.409 --> 02:05:45.590
and to have a purpose. And a lot of times the

02:05:45.590 --> 02:05:48.090
purpose that they feel other than family and

02:05:48.090 --> 02:05:50.489
loved ones and friends and things along those

02:05:50.489 --> 02:05:54.130
lines, there's a purpose of success in their

02:05:54.130 --> 02:05:57.470
chosen field, success in whatever endeavor, even

02:05:57.470 --> 02:05:59.329
if it's a hobby, you know, like whatever the

02:05:59.329 --> 02:06:03.409
thing is that they obsess upon. That's what gives

02:06:03.409 --> 02:06:06.979
people this sense of meaning of. And I think

02:06:06.979 --> 02:06:08.920
that's why there's buildings. That's why there's

02:06:08.920 --> 02:06:11.300
cities. That's why we figured out the wheel.

02:06:11.520 --> 02:06:15.119
There's something about people that need a problem

02:06:15.119 --> 02:06:17.819
to solve. And then once they've solved that problem,

02:06:17.920 --> 02:06:19.800
they need a new problem. Right. And that's what

02:06:19.800 --> 02:06:21.260
the nervous system was fundamentally designed

02:06:21.260 --> 02:06:23.000
to do. That and make sure our offspring make

02:06:23.000 --> 02:06:25.760
it to the next. So when you see like riots and

02:06:25.760 --> 02:06:27.960
looting and you see people pushing against the

02:06:27.960 --> 02:06:30.920
building and let us in, do you? You look at it

02:06:30.920 --> 02:06:32.960
from that perspective, like, oh, there's sort

02:06:32.960 --> 02:06:37.479
of a battle going on here, and they're trying

02:06:37.479 --> 02:06:40.840
to win, just like the mouse in that tube. When

02:06:40.840 --> 02:06:42.739
you see those protesters in Portland are trying

02:06:42.739 --> 02:06:44.659
to get into the courthouse, like, what are they

02:06:44.659 --> 02:06:46.420
doing? They're trying to get in there because

02:06:46.420 --> 02:06:50.640
it's locked. And they have this idea in their

02:06:50.640 --> 02:06:52.840
head that that's going to be the conquest. But

02:06:52.840 --> 02:06:56.750
you saw, like... Chaz, remember that? That zone

02:06:56.750 --> 02:06:59.829
in Seattle. Six blocks. They let them have it.

02:06:59.930 --> 02:07:02.930
And then what happened? They fucked it up. It

02:07:02.930 --> 02:07:05.029
fell apart. It fell apart. It fell apart because

02:07:05.029 --> 02:07:07.789
there was no end goal then. Once they have it,

02:07:07.829 --> 02:07:08.909
what are you going to do? Are you going to sustain

02:07:08.909 --> 02:07:11.649
it? No. People started leaving. Murders took

02:07:11.649 --> 02:07:14.069
place. They started beating people up. They were

02:07:14.069 --> 02:07:16.130
filming things. They were behaving like the police.

02:07:16.350 --> 02:07:19.479
It was crazy. It was crazy. boundaries up. They

02:07:19.479 --> 02:07:21.920
essentially turned it into a far worse version

02:07:21.920 --> 02:07:25.579
of the United States. But in their mind, they

02:07:25.579 --> 02:07:29.560
thought, if we just take this over, this right

02:07:29.560 --> 02:07:32.579
now is not ours. But if we take it, there's a

02:07:32.579 --> 02:07:35.819
police precinct there. If we storm the precinct

02:07:35.819 --> 02:07:38.159
and occupy it, then we're going to win. Yeah,

02:07:38.260 --> 02:07:40.100
we're in. But then once they're in, they're like,

02:07:40.159 --> 02:07:42.619
now what? Well, there's no resistance. Once there

02:07:42.619 --> 02:07:45.359
was no resistance, they didn't have a fight.

02:07:45.789 --> 02:07:47.970
There was no battle. It was very primitive. And

02:07:47.970 --> 02:07:49.569
actually, I hadn't thought about it. It's a perfect

02:07:49.569 --> 02:07:51.529
example of real life example of the tube test.

02:07:51.630 --> 02:07:53.850
These, you know, two opposing forces pushing

02:07:53.850 --> 02:07:56.470
back and forth. And we know that the more, you

02:07:56.470 --> 02:07:58.090
know, we call it autonomic arousal, the more

02:07:58.090 --> 02:08:01.789
stress you get, the more your mental and visual

02:08:01.789 --> 02:08:03.810
landscape becomes that sort of straw view where

02:08:03.810 --> 02:08:05.750
all you can think about is the adversary. Yes.

02:08:05.789 --> 02:08:08.289
You know, now in a fight in an octagon or a boxing

02:08:08.289 --> 02:08:10.750
ring or jujitsu match, that's great because that's

02:08:10.750 --> 02:08:13.800
everyone's agreed to that. But it. That's not

02:08:13.800 --> 02:08:15.760
designed to be played out in society over these

02:08:15.760 --> 02:08:17.960
micro -wins. It's not even clear that they're

02:08:17.960 --> 02:08:20.619
wins because what's really changed? I think that

02:08:20.619 --> 02:08:22.779
working through legislation, working through

02:08:22.779 --> 02:08:26.439
top -down legislation, identifying specific things

02:08:26.439 --> 02:08:28.300
to go after. I mean, that was the beauty of the

02:08:28.300 --> 02:08:31.060
civil rights movement in the 1960s, Brown versus

02:08:31.060 --> 02:08:33.300
the Board of Education. What a beautiful thing

02:08:33.300 --> 02:08:36.260
to create openness in schools where anyone could

02:08:36.260 --> 02:08:38.520
attend, going after specific legislation. That's

02:08:38.520 --> 02:08:42.470
far and away a different way of looking at. problem

02:08:42.470 --> 02:08:45.390
and solving a problem and you know I don't have

02:08:45.390 --> 02:08:47.590
a lot to say about the situation in terms of

02:08:47.590 --> 02:08:49.430
the protests I saw a lot of looting where I live

02:08:49.430 --> 02:08:51.550
in Oakland I'm the first house in on a commercial

02:08:51.550 --> 02:08:53.970
district drove a car through the window looted

02:08:53.970 --> 02:08:56.630
the place three times pharmacy three times I

02:08:56.630 --> 02:08:58.770
mean it was right up next to me so you know I

02:08:58.770 --> 02:09:02.930
think that But that seems to me to be just opportunists.

02:09:02.989 --> 02:09:05.229
They're taking advantage of the chaos. It was

02:09:05.229 --> 02:09:07.149
clear it was not the protesters. There's many

02:09:07.149 --> 02:09:11.229
things going on simultaneously. And to kind of

02:09:11.229 --> 02:09:13.930
conflate them all together seems disingenuous.

02:09:14.170 --> 02:09:15.470
Well, this is a problem. In science, we have

02:09:15.470 --> 02:09:17.590
a phrase. You're either a lumper or a splitter.

02:09:18.170 --> 02:09:20.350
The lumpers like to kind of lump everything together

02:09:20.350 --> 02:09:23.170
and push forward a grand theory. Now, today I'm

02:09:23.170 --> 02:09:24.470
using some generalizations because I don't want

02:09:24.470 --> 02:09:25.909
to get too far down in the weeds, but I'll stand

02:09:25.909 --> 02:09:28.329
behind anything I've said because it has detailed

02:09:28.329 --> 02:09:30.890
background to support it. But the splitters.

02:09:31.640 --> 02:09:33.479
as annoying as they can be when they come to

02:09:33.479 --> 02:09:35.899
meetings, no, but this, but that, you need a

02:09:35.899 --> 02:09:37.739
certain number of splitters. This is why I think

02:09:37.739 --> 02:09:39.960
like a panel of people is good. You get a lumper,

02:09:39.979 --> 02:09:42.340
a lumper and a splitter. And then pretty soon

02:09:42.340 --> 02:09:44.239
the splitter is annoying everybody because you

02:09:44.239 --> 02:09:46.060
just want to go for coffee or you want to just

02:09:46.060 --> 02:09:48.380
break and the lumpers are done. But the splitter

02:09:48.380 --> 02:09:50.199
says, no, we're actually not thinking about this

02:09:50.199 --> 02:09:52.699
problem in a nuanced way. And this is where I

02:09:52.699 --> 02:09:54.920
think maybe it's not specific scientific information,

02:09:54.939 --> 02:09:58.119
but a scientific training and ability to think

02:09:58.119 --> 02:10:00.779
about a problem and be comfortable. Knowing you

02:10:00.779 --> 02:10:03.140
may not solve it today or ever, but you're going

02:10:03.140 --> 02:10:05.880
to lathe into this thing over and over and over.

02:10:06.000 --> 02:10:07.720
That's the kind of training that a scientific

02:10:07.720 --> 02:10:10.060
thinking will give somebody. You don't even have

02:10:10.060 --> 02:10:11.979
to want to be a scientist to do it. I don't know

02:10:11.979 --> 02:10:13.420
if anyone wants to be a scientist nowadays. I

02:10:13.420 --> 02:10:17.300
certainly hope so. But we need to have more nuance.

02:10:17.520 --> 02:10:20.020
We need balance between the lumpers and splitters.

02:10:20.060 --> 02:10:22.420
And as you point out before, social media is

02:10:22.420 --> 02:10:25.939
all about lumping and high emotional states.

02:10:26.020 --> 02:10:28.560
And that's the worst combination. Yeah, I think

02:10:28.560 --> 02:10:31.699
what you just said is perfect. I mean that's

02:10:31.699 --> 02:10:33.800
really what we're dealing with today is this

02:10:33.800 --> 02:10:36.819
inability to recognize nuance and to accept nuance

02:10:36.819 --> 02:10:41.039
and to be rigid and committed to your position.

02:10:41.220 --> 02:10:45.140
And your position is something you defend because

02:10:45.140 --> 02:10:48.359
your position essentially is you, right? This

02:10:48.359 --> 02:10:50.060
is one of the problems that people have with

02:10:50.060 --> 02:10:52.939
ideas, that they marry their mind to these ideas.

02:10:53.140 --> 02:10:56.289
And if these ideas prove to be – even if – objectively

02:10:56.289 --> 02:10:59.569
they know that this idea has holes in it, they

02:10:59.569 --> 02:11:02.489
will still defend that idea tooth and claw because

02:11:02.489 --> 02:11:04.569
that idea represents their ego or represents

02:11:04.569 --> 02:11:09.109
them as an individual. And that's unhealthy for

02:11:09.109 --> 02:11:12.210
everybody. But it's also, it's part of being

02:11:12.210 --> 02:11:15.229
a human being, this instinct to do such a thing.

02:11:15.430 --> 02:11:17.770
Absolutely. There's a paper that came out recently

02:11:17.770 --> 02:11:19.489
in the journal Neuron, excellent journal, that

02:11:19.489 --> 02:11:21.869
was all about the dopamine system being attached

02:11:21.869 --> 02:11:25.310
to beliefs. Beliefs and thoughts we think of

02:11:25.310 --> 02:11:26.949
as kind of these vague, you know, like what are

02:11:26.949 --> 02:11:28.470
thoughts? You know, I have thoughts all the time,

02:11:28.529 --> 02:11:30.949
but I can also deliberately have a thought. Beliefs

02:11:30.949 --> 02:11:33.109
are almost like actions in the sense that they

02:11:33.109 --> 02:11:35.149
can recruit dopamine release. What this paper

02:11:35.149 --> 02:11:38.210
showed is that. People just believing – thinking

02:11:38.210 --> 02:11:40.289
more and more about what they already believe

02:11:40.289 --> 02:11:42.770
leads to these dopamine increases. It literally

02:11:42.770 --> 02:11:45.229
reinforces the belief they have from the inside.

02:11:45.449 --> 02:11:48.210
That presents a certain particular type of problem

02:11:48.210 --> 02:11:50.289
for trying to convince people how to change their

02:11:50.289 --> 02:11:53.350
opinion. It means I have to take your mind or

02:11:53.350 --> 02:11:55.449
the person's mind into a completely different

02:11:55.449 --> 02:11:58.369
state in order to change it. Maybe it's hypnosis.

02:11:58.430 --> 02:12:01.090
Maybe it's proper landing of media ideas. I don't

02:12:01.090 --> 02:12:03.029
know what that form would take. But changing

02:12:03.029 --> 02:12:05.949
people's minds – provided that they are older

02:12:05.949 --> 02:12:09.090
than 25, has to be done by the person themselves.

02:12:09.430 --> 02:12:12.069
I can't change your mind unless you're a child.

02:12:12.130 --> 02:12:14.369
A child, we can impact them. But once you're

02:12:14.369 --> 02:12:18.229
an adult, only you can direct your own plasticity.

02:12:18.270 --> 02:12:20.170
No one can do it for you. So we are becoming

02:12:20.170 --> 02:12:22.449
more and more polarized. And because of the nature

02:12:22.449 --> 02:12:25.250
of the AI bots that drive social media, the information

02:12:25.250 --> 02:12:27.600
that you're getting and that I'm getting. Well,

02:12:27.619 --> 02:12:30.100
hopefully that's more aligned than, you know,

02:12:30.119 --> 02:12:32.000
some of the ideas that I'm getting and other

02:12:32.000 --> 02:12:33.460
people are getting where we fundamentally disagree

02:12:33.460 --> 02:12:36.100
because social media and media in general is

02:12:36.100 --> 02:12:37.800
designed to bring us into these high amplitude

02:12:37.800 --> 02:12:40.979
aroused states. But we're getting different information.

02:12:41.140 --> 02:12:43.060
We're not reading the same newspaper. And so

02:12:43.060 --> 02:12:45.100
our beliefs are actually diverging and being

02:12:45.100 --> 02:12:47.779
reinforced by dopamine. So we are creating a

02:12:47.779 --> 02:12:50.539
bigger and bigger conceptual divide. through

02:12:50.539 --> 02:12:52.880
the hijack of these neural mechanisms. I wonder

02:12:52.880 --> 02:12:54.819
if that's one of the really attractive things

02:12:54.819 --> 02:12:58.020
about these protests is this internal recognition

02:12:58.020 --> 02:13:00.319
somewhere, even if it's subconsciously, that

02:13:00.319 --> 02:13:02.989
we don't connect with people enough. And that

02:13:02.989 --> 02:13:06.250
there's no greater connection than a group of

02:13:06.250 --> 02:13:08.170
50 ,000 people that are supporting an individual

02:13:08.170 --> 02:13:10.550
cause. And working towards a common goal. We

02:13:10.550 --> 02:13:13.149
know this. If you really want to build team,

02:13:13.210 --> 02:13:16.210
build a sense of community, you can have them

02:13:16.210 --> 02:13:18.130
all watch a concert, bring them into a peak state,

02:13:18.210 --> 02:13:21.050
or you can all have them fight the same fight.

02:13:21.189 --> 02:13:24.390
I wonder if there's like a yearning for that.

02:13:24.779 --> 02:13:27.960
Because of the separation of, I mean, think about

02:13:27.960 --> 02:13:30.859
the coinciding factors, right? You have social

02:13:30.859 --> 02:13:35.300
media, which separates us. You have COVID, which

02:13:35.300 --> 02:13:38.479
separates us. And then you have these protests,

02:13:38.579 --> 02:13:41.979
which unites us. And it must be incredibly satisfying

02:13:41.979 --> 02:13:45.460
for people that have been locked up and are constantly

02:13:45.460 --> 02:13:48.539
on social media to be in this mass movement.

02:13:48.600 --> 02:13:51.180
And you'll probably alter your own perceptions

02:13:51.180 --> 02:13:54.710
and beliefs to fit in better. with this movement.

02:13:54.909 --> 02:13:57.210
So people that would never be violent may be

02:13:57.210 --> 02:13:59.649
violent. People that would never loot might loot.

02:13:59.789 --> 02:14:02.510
People that would never use graffiti or start

02:14:02.510 --> 02:14:05.369
smashing the windows of Starbucks might be so

02:14:05.369 --> 02:14:09.029
inclined, because of the mob mentality, to join

02:14:09.029 --> 02:14:11.649
right on in, just to be accepted and be a part

02:14:11.649 --> 02:14:14.369
of this group and just to feel something, just

02:14:14.369 --> 02:14:17.750
to be excited by this gigantic movement. And

02:14:17.750 --> 02:14:21.949
when it's so undeniable that the cause is worthy,

02:14:22.149 --> 02:14:24.789
like the George... Floyd murder, when you see

02:14:24.789 --> 02:14:27.250
that and you go, well, fuck this, man, this is

02:14:27.250 --> 02:14:29.470
wrong. This is injustice. And then everybody's

02:14:29.470 --> 02:14:31.229
on the street and they're chanting together.

02:14:31.390 --> 02:14:34.590
You're like, it's perfect. It's a perfect combination

02:14:34.590 --> 02:14:36.470
of things. It is the perfect combination. And

02:14:36.470 --> 02:14:38.710
it is a combination, you know, up until now,

02:14:38.750 --> 02:14:40.350
I've been talking about what's like just frustration

02:14:40.350 --> 02:14:42.829
or just winning, but you're talking about group

02:14:42.829 --> 02:14:45.090
cohesion. You're talking about fighting a fight.

02:14:45.189 --> 02:14:46.630
You're talking about being locked up before.

02:14:46.670 --> 02:14:49.340
So all these forces. pulling on the same neurochemical

02:14:49.340 --> 02:14:51.460
forces. There aren't many neurochemical ingredients.

02:14:51.600 --> 02:14:53.760
There are a lot of ways to access them. And I

02:14:53.760 --> 02:14:55.739
look at what's happening now and I sort of go,

02:14:55.840 --> 02:14:57.279
well, it's sort of like the inverse of Burning

02:14:57.279 --> 02:14:59.399
Man. I've never been to Burning Man. I'm probably

02:14:59.399 --> 02:15:00.739
the one person in the Bay Area that hasn't been

02:15:00.739 --> 02:15:02.600
to Burning Man. But going out to the desert,

02:15:02.760 --> 02:15:05.300
no money, everyone's going to get along. There's

02:15:05.300 --> 02:15:06.760
going to be a lot of sex and everyone's going

02:15:06.760 --> 02:15:09.800
to get along and everything's great. No rules,

02:15:09.979 --> 02:15:12.939
basically, except be kind. And now we're seeing

02:15:12.939 --> 02:15:15.119
the exact inverse of that. And so there needs

02:15:15.119 --> 02:15:17.199
to be something that can satisfy this yearning.

02:15:17.319 --> 02:15:19.539
for connection. And that can make us feel like

02:15:19.539 --> 02:15:22.819
we're building. And, you know, back in the last

02:15:22.819 --> 02:15:24.640
century's history, I mean, you know, the build

02:15:24.640 --> 02:15:27.159
after the war was a, you know, everyone community

02:15:27.159 --> 02:15:28.739
building, there were a lot of problems with the

02:15:28.739 --> 02:15:31.079
way that was played out, of course, was not done

02:15:31.079 --> 02:15:34.300
equally among race, racial groups, etc. But a

02:15:34.300 --> 02:15:37.000
common goal, a common battle, a common fight

02:15:37.000 --> 02:15:39.779
is very good at recruiting these systems in the

02:15:39.779 --> 02:15:42.130
brain. And I don't know how that's going to come

02:15:42.130 --> 02:15:44.289
about. I keep hoping I have this 14 year old

02:15:44.289 --> 02:15:46.109
niece and I just keep hoping that like her generation

02:15:46.109 --> 02:15:47.770
is looking at all this and they're just like,

02:15:47.829 --> 02:15:51.109
we're going to work this out. Well, I think what's

02:15:51.109 --> 02:15:52.989
going to happen with places like Seattle and

02:15:52.989 --> 02:15:56.149
Portland, unfortunately, I sense a mass exodus

02:15:56.149 --> 02:15:59.369
of rational people from the area. I think they're

02:15:59.369 --> 02:16:01.689
probably going to go, OK, people have lost your

02:16:01.689 --> 02:16:03.789
marbles. We're going to get the fuck out of here

02:16:03.789 --> 02:16:05.189
and we're going to take our tax dollars with

02:16:05.189 --> 02:16:07.909
us and leave you with your Marxist mayor. And

02:16:07.909 --> 02:16:10.109
congratulations, you fucked the whole city up.

02:16:10.329 --> 02:16:13.130
And then there needs to be some sort of a recognition

02:16:13.130 --> 02:16:16.710
of the mistakes and then a correction. And that's

02:16:16.710 --> 02:16:18.909
probably what's going to happen. You're probably

02:16:18.909 --> 02:16:20.810
going to see more and more of this, more and

02:16:20.810 --> 02:16:23.069
more chaos. And then, like, you know, what's

02:16:23.069 --> 02:16:25.829
going on today in Portland. And now you've got

02:16:25.829 --> 02:16:28.630
Homeland Security troops, which, I mean, I don't

02:16:28.630 --> 02:16:30.630
even know what branch of the military they're

02:16:30.630 --> 02:16:32.549
a part of. I have no idea. weird they're all

02:16:32.549 --> 02:16:35.290
wearing camo and they don't have badges on they

02:16:35.290 --> 02:16:38.030
just they just show up in minivans and pull people

02:16:38.030 --> 02:16:39.809
in the cars and everybody's like what the fuck

02:16:39.809 --> 02:16:43.159
is this like what is going on here well There'll

02:16:43.159 --> 02:16:44.899
probably be a correction because of that as well.

02:16:45.459 --> 02:16:47.739
It's most likely that what we're experiencing

02:16:47.739 --> 02:16:51.000
is just a lot of chaos and then lessons will

02:16:51.000 --> 02:16:53.100
be learned. And unfortunately for a lot of people,

02:16:53.139 --> 02:16:55.459
victims will be made. You know, they're going

02:16:55.459 --> 02:16:57.340
to make victims out of a lot of people and a

02:16:57.340 --> 02:16:58.840
lot of people are going to lose their businesses

02:16:58.840 --> 02:17:00.940
and their livelihoods and even their lives along

02:17:00.940 --> 02:17:03.319
the way. Well, and we saw this in the 60s, you

02:17:03.319 --> 02:17:04.879
know, the civil rights movement was an incredible

02:17:04.879 --> 02:17:06.639
movement, but we also had like the whole hippie

02:17:06.639 --> 02:17:08.840
movement. There was like a lot of the same parallels

02:17:08.840 --> 02:17:10.879
were happening in the last 20 years. I was watching

02:17:10.879 --> 02:17:12.139
this, you know, because I grew up in the Bay

02:17:12.139 --> 02:17:14.299
Area. People think of Silicon Valley as very

02:17:14.299 --> 02:17:16.760
conservative, but I remember a time growing up,

02:17:16.840 --> 02:17:19.780
at least in my house, the way that my dad talked

02:17:19.780 --> 02:17:22.180
about hippies was like, it doesn't lead anywhere.

02:17:22.299 --> 02:17:24.700
It's bad for everything, the counterculture movement.

02:17:26.120 --> 02:17:27.819
My mom was the opposite. So I think neither was

02:17:27.819 --> 02:17:29.620
correct. But, you know, they had crazy stuff

02:17:29.620 --> 02:17:32.120
going on like this. There was this guy, Uli Geller,

02:17:32.280 --> 02:17:34.219
that was, you know, he thought he could bend

02:17:34.219 --> 02:17:36.200
spoons with his mind, you know, spoonbender.

02:17:36.260 --> 02:17:38.040
That was the joke of my life. Don't be a spoonbender.

02:17:38.120 --> 02:17:39.739
You know, like whatever you do, don't be a spoonbender.

02:17:39.819 --> 02:17:42.379
Because it's like stay attached to facts and

02:17:42.379 --> 02:17:43.879
things that are designed to move human progress

02:17:43.879 --> 02:17:45.979
forward. That's really important. At the same

02:17:45.979 --> 02:17:48.420
time, you had the whole counterculture thing

02:17:48.420 --> 02:17:50.500
going crazy. And I feel like in the last 20 years,

02:17:50.559 --> 02:17:56.350
we've seen some spoonbenders. The explosion of

02:17:56.350 --> 02:17:59.270
access to all things, you know, and people being

02:17:59.270 --> 02:18:01.750
so hungry to have everything that everyone else

02:18:01.750 --> 02:18:05.190
has. And there's been a gradual decline, at least

02:18:05.190 --> 02:18:07.549
in some sectors, you know, an appreciation for

02:18:07.549 --> 02:18:10.370
hard work ethic. That's why I think, David, you

02:18:10.370 --> 02:18:11.649
know, I have a deep appreciation in this for

02:18:11.649 --> 02:18:13.190
the work with, you know, people in the military.

02:18:13.229 --> 02:18:16.430
But people who, you know, that whole American

02:18:16.430 --> 02:18:19.049
thing that I grew up with of you get up, you

02:18:19.049 --> 02:18:21.629
pick a vocation, you grind away at it, whether

02:18:21.629 --> 02:18:24.530
or not it's, you know. garbage garbage man or

02:18:24.530 --> 02:18:27.149
scientist doesn't matter you're just building

02:18:27.149 --> 02:18:29.409
your the same circuits are underlying all that

02:18:29.409 --> 02:18:32.340
and i think right now people are feeling Like

02:18:32.340 --> 02:18:34.219
they don't know which way is forward. Right.

02:18:34.420 --> 02:18:36.139
Like we talk about moving forward and pushing

02:18:36.139 --> 02:18:37.579
against stream. But I think a lot of people just

02:18:37.579 --> 02:18:39.260
don't know which way is forward. So what's ever

02:18:39.260 --> 02:18:40.979
thrown in their face, they go that direction.

02:18:41.139 --> 02:18:43.600
Yeah. Well, they think they have a sense of what's

02:18:43.600 --> 02:18:45.280
forward and they're moving in that direction.

02:18:45.420 --> 02:18:48.139
And a lot of them are very young, too. And so

02:18:48.139 --> 02:18:51.399
their their version of the world is not, again,

02:18:51.459 --> 02:18:54.020
to use the word, not particularly nuanced, which

02:18:54.020 --> 02:18:56.100
is, you know, they're they're imitating their

02:18:56.100 --> 02:18:58.760
atmosphere. They are a part of this, what they

02:18:58.760 --> 02:19:01.670
think is a very valid and worthy movement. And

02:19:01.670 --> 02:19:03.549
they're pushing forward. And it's very attractive.

02:19:03.649 --> 02:19:08.149
Again, it's one of those things that I think

02:19:08.149 --> 02:19:10.549
ultimately we're going to get something out of

02:19:10.549 --> 02:19:12.850
this. I think ultimately we'll probably be good.

02:19:12.969 --> 02:19:15.149
And I think racially it will be fantastic. I

02:19:15.149 --> 02:19:18.370
think this big explosion of tension is going

02:19:18.370 --> 02:19:21.549
to be awesome when it all settles down. Because

02:19:21.549 --> 02:19:23.870
we're going to realize how ridiculous it is to

02:19:23.870 --> 02:19:28.370
look at people and base. how you treat them or

02:19:28.370 --> 02:19:31.309
how you feel about them based on their appearance

02:19:31.309 --> 02:19:33.670
because of what part of the world their ancestors

02:19:33.670 --> 02:19:36.930
came from. It's just as stupid as looking at

02:19:36.930 --> 02:19:38.989
someone because of their hair color or their

02:19:38.989 --> 02:19:41.010
eye color. I mean, imagine a world where all

02:19:41.010 --> 02:19:43.450
blue -eyed people were devils. We hate them all.

02:19:43.530 --> 02:19:46.090
It's crazy. It's fucking stupid. Things that

02:19:46.090 --> 02:19:48.250
are completely outside of your control should

02:19:48.250 --> 02:19:51.389
have absolutely nothing to do with how a person

02:19:51.389 --> 02:19:54.860
values you as a human being. And I think most

02:19:54.860 --> 02:19:58.280
people haven't experienced this, but there's

02:19:58.280 --> 02:20:00.219
something out there. Maybe it's on the internet,

02:20:00.299 --> 02:20:02.040
but my colleague, Jeremy Balanson, built this

02:20:02.040 --> 02:20:05.959
VR experience called Walk of a Thousand Cuts

02:20:05.959 --> 02:20:08.680
or 10 ,000 Cuts. So you put the VR on, you see

02:20:08.680 --> 02:20:11.600
yourself, a reflection of you, and then they

02:20:11.600 --> 02:20:14.120
turn a dial or you turn a dial and then your

02:20:14.120 --> 02:20:17.040
skin, if you're Caucasian, becomes black, African

02:20:17.040 --> 02:20:19.909
-American. And then you walk down a city street.

02:20:20.069 --> 02:20:21.969
And it's very interesting. I've done this experience.

02:20:22.370 --> 02:20:24.629
And people look at you out of the corner of their

02:20:24.629 --> 02:20:26.850
eye. And you're like, oh, I've never experienced

02:20:26.850 --> 02:20:28.729
that before. The virtual people do. The virtual

02:20:28.729 --> 02:20:30.010
people are looking at you out of the corner of

02:20:30.010 --> 02:20:32.190
their eye. Can you beat them up? Can you beat

02:20:32.190 --> 02:20:33.670
up virtual people? There isn't that option in

02:20:33.670 --> 02:20:35.409
there. There's a different VR experience where

02:20:35.409 --> 02:20:37.569
you can beat people up. There is? There is. You

02:20:37.569 --> 02:20:39.010
should come up to the lab. You should come up

02:20:39.010 --> 02:20:41.549
to the lab. But you don't feel anything. I have

02:20:41.549 --> 02:20:44.350
a VR boxing game, and it's weird because when

02:20:44.350 --> 02:20:47.729
they hit you, you get a flash, and it gets you

02:20:47.729 --> 02:20:49.889
a little nervous. You really do feel like you're

02:20:49.889 --> 02:20:52.149
sparring. But when you hit them, there's no satisfaction.

02:20:52.510 --> 02:20:53.809
Well, you're used to the real thing. There's

02:20:53.809 --> 02:20:55.610
nothing like that real impact, right? There's

02:20:55.610 --> 02:20:57.250
no replacement for real sparring. For hitting

02:20:57.250 --> 02:20:59.309
things. For real sparring, getting hit. Or even

02:20:59.309 --> 02:21:02.010
hitting a bag. I mean, it would be nice, I mean,

02:21:02.049 --> 02:21:04.010
you don't really have to hit a person, but if

02:21:04.010 --> 02:21:07.930
you hit the thing, like, if they could figure

02:21:07.930 --> 02:21:10.770
out a way to make a robot, you know, that was

02:21:10.770 --> 02:21:14.010
interacting with the VR program, that understood

02:21:14.010 --> 02:21:17.250
where the footsteps of the VR, so it's in the

02:21:17.250 --> 02:21:19.750
correct position. So, like, as you hit it, that's

02:21:19.750 --> 02:21:22.239
where it should be. And you could actually push

02:21:22.239 --> 02:21:24.379
off of it, and it would back up a little, and

02:21:24.379 --> 02:21:26.799
then you could hit it. It's coming. I bet it

02:21:26.799 --> 02:21:29.079
is. It's coming. And I should be clear. I'm not

02:21:29.079 --> 02:21:31.200
a total technophile. I think we're using the

02:21:31.200 --> 02:21:32.860
tech that we have now because it's the best we've

02:21:32.860 --> 02:21:35.500
got. And I hope that in five years, with all

02:21:35.500 --> 02:21:37.379
these amazing engineers I'm surrounded by and

02:21:37.379 --> 02:21:39.440
elsewhere, that we won't be using that tech and

02:21:39.440 --> 02:21:40.620
we'll be doing something completely different.

02:21:40.780 --> 02:21:43.739
So I'm sorry to interrupt you. So when you are

02:21:43.739 --> 02:21:46.840
in this different race and you're walking down

02:21:46.840 --> 02:21:51.510
the street, you get this feeling. Is there overt

02:21:51.510 --> 02:21:54.450
racism? Yeah. So you go to a job interview and

02:21:54.450 --> 02:21:55.729
you're standing there next to somebody else.

02:21:55.750 --> 02:21:58.629
You're actually seated down. And then the interviewer

02:21:58.629 --> 02:22:00.770
comes in and says, hello, nice to meet you. And

02:22:00.770 --> 02:22:02.670
they put out their hand and shake the person's

02:22:02.670 --> 02:22:05.959
hand next to you. White guy. And then you. Put

02:22:05.959 --> 02:22:07.459
out your hand and they don't shake it. They go,

02:22:07.459 --> 02:22:09.180
nice to meet you. They do the nod. They make

02:22:09.180 --> 02:22:11.620
eye contact. And then you go into a different

02:22:11.620 --> 02:22:13.219
set of experiences. It takes you through about

02:22:13.219 --> 02:22:15.639
10 minutes of these experiences. And what's interesting

02:22:15.639 --> 02:22:18.540
about it is none of them is so overwhelming that

02:22:18.540 --> 02:22:20.180
you're like, oh, my God, this is what it must

02:22:20.180 --> 02:22:22.620
be like. But what's interesting is I did that

02:22:22.620 --> 02:22:25.680
experience three years ago. Every time I walk

02:22:25.680 --> 02:22:29.969
past a black person on the street, I now. It

02:22:29.969 --> 02:22:32.469
triggers a frame of mind. I'm thinking about

02:22:32.469 --> 02:22:35.010
how I react. I'm thinking about it. Whereas before

02:22:35.010 --> 02:22:36.829
I wasn't. I've never considered myself a racist

02:22:36.829 --> 02:22:40.530
person. I don't now. But it fundamentally changed

02:22:40.530 --> 02:22:43.149
the way that I experience interactions with people

02:22:43.149 --> 02:22:45.440
on the street. And that was it. 10 minute or

02:22:45.440 --> 02:22:48.180
so or 20 minute or so VR experience. And that's

02:22:48.180 --> 02:22:49.819
just the tip of the iceberg about what's possible.

02:22:50.000 --> 02:22:52.340
I think we really what it tells me is that because

02:22:52.340 --> 02:22:56.440
of how stringently gated plasticity is, plasticity

02:22:56.440 --> 02:22:59.020
is vaulted by these chemicals. We need to bring

02:22:59.020 --> 02:23:01.659
those chemicals into play if we want people to

02:23:01.659 --> 02:23:03.959
change the way they feel. I don't think watching

02:23:03.959 --> 02:23:05.579
a protest on the street can do it. I think the

02:23:05.579 --> 02:23:07.760
George Floyd thing absolutely did it. That was

02:23:07.760 --> 02:23:11.530
a very dramatic. terrible example it went it

02:23:11.530 --> 02:23:14.110
was visceral to watch that and i think that's

02:23:14.110 --> 02:23:16.270
why it had the effect it did it underscores essentially

02:23:16.270 --> 02:23:19.809
everything we've been saying about neurochemicals

02:23:19.809 --> 02:23:21.809
being the gates to changing the brain without

02:23:21.809 --> 02:23:24.290
that it's not going to happen what talking about

02:23:24.290 --> 02:23:27.110
this vr program highlights one of the reasons

02:23:27.110 --> 02:23:30.409
why i don't like cities like manhattan i'd like

02:23:30.409 --> 02:23:32.170
them to visit but i don't want to live there

02:23:32.170 --> 02:23:34.729
because you don't say hi to everybody Right.

02:23:34.790 --> 02:23:36.850
You can't. Yeah, you're just in the optic flow.

02:23:36.969 --> 02:23:39.170
You'd be like, hey, hi, how are you? Hey, what's

02:23:39.170 --> 02:23:42.469
up? Hi, lady. It's the human safari. I always

02:23:42.469 --> 02:23:44.370
say New York is like a human safari, but it's

02:23:44.370 --> 02:23:46.729
like, again, signal the noise. Like a person

02:23:46.729 --> 02:23:49.469
has to have a cat on their head naked and on

02:23:49.469 --> 02:23:51.950
fire before you're like, oh, wow, maybe they

02:23:51.950 --> 02:23:54.489
need something. It's very impersonal. There's

02:23:54.489 --> 02:23:57.309
this sort of weird thing that happens when you

02:23:57.309 --> 02:23:59.629
get around large numbers of people where they

02:23:59.629 --> 02:24:02.350
don't become, they're not as valuable because

02:24:02.350 --> 02:24:04.790
you're overwhelmed by them. There's so many of

02:24:04.790 --> 02:24:07.889
them. Whereas if you're in a small town of 20

02:24:07.889 --> 02:24:10.069
,000 people and you walk down the street and

02:24:10.069 --> 02:24:11.709
there's a guy walking towards you, you look at

02:24:11.709 --> 02:24:13.329
each other and go, hey man, how you doing? I

02:24:13.329 --> 02:24:15.930
like that too. What I liked about New York is

02:24:15.930 --> 02:24:18.649
I felt like... It's you had Italians and Irish

02:24:18.649 --> 02:24:20.149
and black people, white people in Puerto Rican

02:24:20.149 --> 02:24:22.590
people. Yes. And so there's a you also experience

02:24:22.590 --> 02:24:25.610
them. Yeah. Right. You see that. And, you know,

02:24:25.610 --> 02:24:27.190
the Bay Area, I love the Bay Area. But one of

02:24:27.190 --> 02:24:29.350
the problems I have with the Bay Area is it's

02:24:29.350 --> 02:24:33.000
become, you know. People are hidden away a lot

02:24:33.000 --> 02:24:35.639
more. There isn't that in a lot of culture as

02:24:35.639 --> 02:24:38.459
well. It's a car culture. And every place has

02:24:38.459 --> 02:24:40.719
its challenges. But I think New York is such

02:24:40.719 --> 02:24:43.219
a beautiful experiment in putting a bunch of

02:24:43.219 --> 02:24:45.520
people with different genetic and ethnic backgrounds

02:24:45.520 --> 02:24:48.780
together, putting them together and saying, you

02:24:48.780 --> 02:24:50.760
know, you may not all get along, but at least

02:24:50.760 --> 02:24:53.399
you will hear those. those accents you'll get

02:24:53.399 --> 02:24:56.440
cursed at in five different languages and i think

02:24:56.440 --> 02:24:58.219
there's a real beauty to it i wonder how much

02:24:58.219 --> 02:25:00.399
that's going to change because of covet because

02:25:00.399 --> 02:25:02.899
obviously people are terrified of being jammed

02:25:02.899 --> 02:25:05.159
into a subway now with strangers and that was

02:25:05.159 --> 02:25:07.159
one of the cool things about new york is that

02:25:07.159 --> 02:25:10.120
you did all walks of life poor and rich would

02:25:10.120 --> 02:25:12.399
interact with each other on the street in la

02:25:12.399 --> 02:25:14.500
there's virtually none of that and there's this

02:25:14.500 --> 02:25:18.479
weird sort of separation between people and where

02:25:18.479 --> 02:25:21.239
they live, and then also the car thing. Car culture

02:25:21.239 --> 02:25:24.319
is, I mean, it just, you're in your own little

02:25:24.319 --> 02:25:26.500
environment. You set up your own little world,

02:25:26.520 --> 02:25:28.340
and that's your car, and you're driving around,

02:25:28.540 --> 02:25:30.100
and these other people that you interact with,

02:25:30.239 --> 02:25:32.379
that's a little segment of their world that they're

02:25:32.379 --> 02:25:35.040
taking with them on the 405. And because of that,

02:25:35.120 --> 02:25:39.079
you don't have the same sort of melting pot aspect

02:25:39.079 --> 02:25:41.559
that you do get in New York. New York, really

02:25:41.559 --> 02:25:43.860
uniquely, I mean, I grew up in Boston. It doesn't

02:25:43.860 --> 02:25:46.579
have it. You know, Boston has like, there's public

02:25:46.579 --> 02:25:48.379
transport. There's the T, you know, you can ride

02:25:48.379 --> 02:25:50.319
the train, shit like that. But it's not nearly

02:25:50.319 --> 02:25:52.299
as prevalent as the subway system in New York

02:25:52.299 --> 02:25:54.700
City or the walking in New York City. Everybody's

02:25:54.700 --> 02:25:56.379
walking. Yeah. And you have to be right up next

02:25:56.379 --> 02:25:58.420
to it. Yep. You know, I think martial arts has

02:25:58.420 --> 02:26:01.340
this a bit as well. I grew up skateboarding.

02:26:01.340 --> 02:26:02.819
That was my sport. And what I loved about it

02:26:02.819 --> 02:26:05.139
is, first of all, it's like all ages, sort of

02:26:05.139 --> 02:26:06.579
a weird sport in that way. You got little kids

02:26:06.579 --> 02:26:08.719
hanging out with grown men and girls and all

02:26:08.719 --> 02:26:12.500
this. Yeah. And so you get this big mixing pot.

02:26:13.149 --> 02:26:15.610
Also ethnically, so diverse. It wasn't always

02:26:15.610 --> 02:26:17.909
like that, but you've got Vietnamese, Mexican,

02:26:18.010 --> 02:26:21.510
black, white kids, everything. Hanging out together,

02:26:21.829 --> 02:26:23.590
whoever can get their tail down, drop in and

02:26:23.590 --> 02:26:27.569
go. That's great. Science is making an effort,

02:26:27.770 --> 02:26:30.389
and I think now especially after the recent events

02:26:30.389 --> 02:26:32.729
in the world, to try and bring in more diversity.

02:26:32.989 --> 02:26:36.649
And it's a desperate need because you want that

02:26:36.649 --> 02:26:38.770
diversity of opinion. You want that diversity

02:26:38.770 --> 02:26:41.549
of outlook, et cetera. We're fortunate to have

02:26:41.549 --> 02:26:44.459
an African -American. colleague in our department,

02:26:44.540 --> 02:26:46.360
which is actually a small department. And there's

02:26:46.360 --> 02:26:47.840
an immense need for that. I think science is

02:26:47.840 --> 02:26:49.600
going to be more diverse in the years to come.

02:26:50.079 --> 02:26:52.739
It's a focused effort now that the National Institutes

02:26:52.739 --> 02:26:54.680
of Health is going to put money and energy into

02:26:54.680 --> 02:26:56.659
this, thankfully. But there can always be more

02:26:56.659 --> 02:26:59.200
done. But I think when thinking about kids and

02:26:59.200 --> 02:27:01.790
neuroplasticity, like... Whenever I'm not skateboarding

02:27:01.790 --> 02:27:04.709
anymore, it wasn't very good at it anyway. But

02:27:04.709 --> 02:27:08.010
I did enjoy it. And I loved the community around

02:27:08.010 --> 02:27:10.309
that. I think more of that, please, for the next

02:27:10.309 --> 02:27:12.469
generation, more things like that. I think martial

02:27:12.469 --> 02:27:14.670
arts is great. You go into a gym and it's like

02:27:14.670 --> 02:27:17.110
it doesn't matter really where you're from. Right.

02:27:17.309 --> 02:27:18.469
Especially if you're going to spar, if you're

02:27:18.469 --> 02:27:20.829
going to get in and start boxing rounds, you

02:27:20.829 --> 02:27:24.229
have to be able to take it. Yeah. And it's not

02:27:24.229 --> 02:27:26.790
about background. It's about what you can do.

02:27:26.889 --> 02:27:29.510
Yeah, that is really important. I mean, and it's.

02:27:30.090 --> 02:27:34.250
It's just more of those things where people can

02:27:34.250 --> 02:27:37.250
interact with all kinds of different people gives

02:27:37.250 --> 02:27:41.030
you a more balanced perspective. It gives you

02:27:41.030 --> 02:27:46.729
a broader perspective, right? And bringing it

02:27:46.729 --> 02:27:49.389
back to the way the brain functions, the more

02:27:49.389 --> 02:27:52.090
variables that you have in terms of when you

02:27:52.090 --> 02:27:55.430
see a person, you know, you know so many different

02:27:55.430 --> 02:27:58.549
examples of human beings that you have more to

02:27:58.549 --> 02:28:01.909
draw upon. And I hope that one of the things

02:28:01.909 --> 02:28:04.270
that comes out of this George Floyd thing and

02:28:04.270 --> 02:28:06.860
then the Black Lives Matter protests. People

02:28:06.860 --> 02:28:09.979
have a more open -minded approach towards just

02:28:09.979 --> 02:28:12.440
human beings in general. And I think these things,

02:28:12.520 --> 02:28:16.879
they happen in these big explosive events and

02:28:16.879 --> 02:28:20.180
then shifts. And I think we're absolutely experiencing

02:28:20.180 --> 02:28:24.940
a global consciousness shift. And it's very chaotic

02:28:24.940 --> 02:28:27.620
and scary in some ways for a lot of people right

02:28:27.620 --> 02:28:29.520
now. But I think ultimately we're going to come

02:28:29.520 --> 02:28:31.350
out of this. the better. And if you look at,

02:28:31.370 --> 02:28:34.610
say, Steven Pinker's work, where he covers the

02:28:34.610 --> 02:28:37.950
history of human beings and interactions, we

02:28:37.950 --> 02:28:41.229
are in the best time ever. And it's hard to say

02:28:41.229 --> 02:28:43.049
that because you know there's still poverty and

02:28:43.049 --> 02:28:44.450
there's still violence and there's still crime

02:28:44.450 --> 02:28:47.010
and there's still racism and sexism and rape

02:28:47.010 --> 02:28:50.750
and all sorts of awful shit. but it's way less

02:28:50.750 --> 02:28:53.389
and way better than it was just 100 years ago

02:28:53.389 --> 02:28:56.030
or 200 years ago and it seems to constantly be

02:28:56.030 --> 02:28:59.149
moving in that trend and i'm hoping that that's

02:28:59.149 --> 02:29:01.090
going to be what comes out of this this is going

02:29:01.090 --> 02:29:04.129
to be another event that as the dust settles

02:29:04.129 --> 02:29:06.030
and as the lessons are learned and as we kind

02:29:06.030 --> 02:29:08.489
of get our feet back on the ground and we understand

02:29:08.489 --> 02:29:10.450
what went wrong and what happened particularly

02:29:10.450 --> 02:29:13.680
because of this this coronavirus situation that

02:29:13.680 --> 02:29:16.100
we're in, we're, you know, everything's in chaos.

02:29:16.540 --> 02:29:19.700
Everything's thrown up in the air. 30 something

02:29:19.700 --> 02:29:22.139
percent of people can't pay their rent right

02:29:22.139 --> 02:29:24.700
now. It's crazy. It's nuts. It's terrible. Unemployment

02:29:24.700 --> 02:29:26.520
rates through the roof. It's crazy. It's terrible.

02:29:26.700 --> 02:29:29.299
It's terrible. And every time I. You know, I

02:29:29.299 --> 02:29:30.940
think being able to take someone else's frame

02:29:30.940 --> 02:29:33.159
of mind or reference just as an exercise, it's

02:29:33.159 --> 02:29:35.520
so hard. I mean, we become kind of autistic in

02:29:35.520 --> 02:29:38.000
our way of just feeling like our experience is

02:29:38.000 --> 02:29:39.840
the one experience and just being able to try

02:29:39.840 --> 02:29:41.379
and think about what it must be like over the

02:29:41.379 --> 02:29:45.079
last three months to not have any income, you

02:29:45.079 --> 02:29:47.860
know, to see your gym or your business open then

02:29:47.860 --> 02:29:50.819
shut again, at least here in California. Incredibly

02:29:50.819 --> 02:29:54.360
stressful. It's pulling on all the levers that

02:29:54.360 --> 02:29:57.569
create internal tension and outward. physical

02:29:57.569 --> 02:30:02.069
explosion, you know, and we yeah, I I am optimistic

02:30:02.069 --> 02:30:05.129
in terms of the long arc of this But right now

02:30:05.129 --> 02:30:07.250
we are in the pressure point. Yeah, it's rough

02:30:07.250 --> 02:30:09.889
to bring it back to your work one of the things

02:30:09.889 --> 02:30:14.290
that you talked about was eyesight and Regaining

02:30:14.290 --> 02:30:16.969
eyesight or dealing with people that have weakening

02:30:16.969 --> 02:30:19.690
eyesight my eyesight is going to shit man Do

02:30:19.690 --> 02:30:22.170
you have a retinal condition? No, I'm just old

02:30:22.170 --> 02:30:25.969
52 and just there's a you know, macular degeneration

02:30:25.969 --> 02:30:29.159
like I mean, I can read my phone. I can read

02:30:29.159 --> 02:30:31.459
all these text messages that are coming in, 14

02:30:31.459 --> 02:30:34.180
new ones since I put my phone down. But what

02:30:34.180 --> 02:30:37.579
I do know for sure is that my vision is not as

02:30:37.579 --> 02:30:39.200
good as it was 10 years ago and certainly not

02:30:39.200 --> 02:30:42.440
as good as it was 20 years ago. What can be done?

02:30:42.780 --> 02:30:46.219
Okay. So there's what can be done now and where

02:30:46.219 --> 02:30:47.879
we're headed. But I suspect you want to know

02:30:47.879 --> 02:30:50.139
what can be done now. Fix my eyes. Okay. So we

02:30:50.139 --> 02:30:52.120
do have a clinical trial in my lab right now

02:30:52.120 --> 02:30:55.159
through my affiliation with ophthalmology where

02:30:55.159 --> 02:31:00.100
– People put on VR goggles, very separate from

02:31:00.100 --> 02:31:02.340
the fear -inducing thing. It's actually a very

02:31:02.340 --> 02:31:06.020
pleasant experience. And we use a particular

02:31:06.020 --> 02:31:10.239
pattern of stimulation that activates the cells

02:31:10.239 --> 02:31:12.719
in the eye that are most vulnerable and create

02:31:12.719 --> 02:31:15.319
vision loss. It stimulates those in a way that

02:31:15.319 --> 02:31:17.040
reinforces their connections with the brain.

02:31:17.159 --> 02:31:20.819
That's the logic. So every cell in your eye has

02:31:20.819 --> 02:31:22.040
a different function, but some of them, their

02:31:22.040 --> 02:31:24.120
job is to transmit visual information to the

02:31:24.120 --> 02:31:25.930
rest of the brain. They're called ganglion cells.

02:31:26.389 --> 02:31:30.350
We know what patterns of activity make them healthy

02:31:30.350 --> 02:31:33.209
and what reinforce regeneration. Back in 2016,

02:31:33.450 --> 02:31:36.030
my lab published a paper showing that that particular

02:31:36.030 --> 02:31:38.469
pattern of stimulation combined with a particular

02:31:38.469 --> 02:31:40.610
pattern of gene therapy. So this is one injection

02:31:40.610 --> 02:31:43.770
into the eye of a gene that triggers growth of

02:31:43.770 --> 02:31:47.610
these cells. In mice, that allowed regeneration

02:31:47.610 --> 02:31:49.889
of neurons that were damaged and it actually

02:31:49.889 --> 02:31:52.829
reversed. slightly, but it reversed blindness.

02:31:52.909 --> 02:31:54.649
Completely blind mice were able to see again.

02:31:54.850 --> 02:31:59.149
So that was in mice. We then took that, built

02:31:59.149 --> 02:32:02.190
a human clinical trial using just the VR part.

02:32:02.370 --> 02:32:04.850
However, some... people in this trial are receiving

02:32:04.850 --> 02:32:08.329
injections. It's about once every month, very

02:32:08.329 --> 02:32:10.790
painless injection into what we call the vitreous

02:32:10.790 --> 02:32:12.469
of the eye. They shoot it right in the eyeball?

02:32:12.690 --> 02:32:14.149
Yeah, just a little insulin syringe, go right

02:32:14.149 --> 02:32:16.670
in. You look that way, boom. A skilled ophthalmologist

02:32:16.670 --> 02:32:18.590
can do this without any pain or anything. I know

02:32:18.590 --> 02:32:20.270
it sounds terrible, but it's very straightforward.

02:32:20.790 --> 02:32:26.290
To inject something called CNTF, ciliary nootrophic

02:32:26.290 --> 02:32:29.530
factor. And the combination of this growth factor

02:32:29.530 --> 02:32:32.329
plus the visual stimulation, we believe is going

02:32:32.329 --> 02:32:36.170
to Protect cells that would normally be lost

02:32:36.170 --> 02:32:38.610
from getting lost, so offset vision loss, and

02:32:38.610 --> 02:32:41.069
potentially restore vision. Now, the results

02:32:41.069 --> 02:32:42.809
of this trial aren't done, but we are recruiting

02:32:42.809 --> 02:32:44.709
people for this trial. Jamie, you're in, right?

02:32:44.870 --> 02:32:47.829
My eyes are good. They're working just fine right

02:32:47.829 --> 02:32:50.629
now. What about prisoners? Get some prisoners

02:32:50.629 --> 02:32:52.250
that are really bad people, but they can't see

02:32:52.250 --> 02:32:54.069
that good. The injection part, provided it's

02:32:54.069 --> 02:32:58.110
done by a skilled ophthalmologist, it's a cinch.

02:32:58.309 --> 02:33:00.149
You've been through way worse this morning on

02:33:00.149 --> 02:33:02.090
your way to work. Trust me. So it's nothing.

02:33:02.889 --> 02:33:04.690
The other thing is that there was a paper published

02:33:04.690 --> 02:33:06.709
just recently, a couple weeks ago, not from my

02:33:06.709 --> 02:33:08.430
lab, but from a group over at University College

02:33:08.430 --> 02:33:11.409
London, looking at the effects of red light on

02:33:11.409 --> 02:33:13.329
mitochondria in a different cell type, which

02:33:13.329 --> 02:33:15.090
are the photoreceptors of the eye. So you've

02:33:15.090 --> 02:33:16.270
got the cells that connect the eye to the brain

02:33:16.270 --> 02:33:17.329
called the ganglion cells, and you've got the

02:33:17.329 --> 02:33:19.290
photoreceptors, which take all this photon information,

02:33:19.590 --> 02:33:22.090
turn it into this incredible thing we call vision,

02:33:22.209 --> 02:33:24.610
which itself is a whole galaxy of information,

02:33:24.770 --> 02:33:29.430
but is amazing. Those cells degenerate over time,

02:33:29.549 --> 02:33:32.190
the photoreceptors. They don't do very well in

02:33:32.190 --> 02:33:35.829
part because as we age, the mitochondrial function

02:33:35.829 --> 02:33:38.649
gets disrupted. This study was preliminary. It

02:33:38.649 --> 02:33:40.250
wasn't very many subjects. I think it was only

02:33:40.250 --> 02:33:43.850
20 subjects. Maybe it was 12. But getting red

02:33:43.850 --> 02:33:46.489
light therapy, just viewing a very bright flashes

02:33:46.489 --> 02:33:48.549
of red light of a particular wavelength. So I

02:33:48.549 --> 02:33:49.709
don't want people going out there and blasting

02:33:49.709 --> 02:33:53.069
their eyes. Improved vision on vision tests almost

02:33:53.069 --> 02:33:55.670
immediately. And that's a very non -invasive

02:33:55.670 --> 02:33:58.149
approach. I have one of those red light therapy

02:33:58.149 --> 02:34:01.770
machines. It's probably a little different than

02:34:01.770 --> 02:34:03.469
this. If you're interested in doing this, let

02:34:03.469 --> 02:34:05.950
me know and we can potentially plug you into

02:34:05.950 --> 02:34:08.069
this. What would be the difference between that

02:34:08.069 --> 02:34:09.930
red light therapy and the other kind of red light

02:34:09.930 --> 02:34:12.290
therapy? Because I really like that juve thing.

02:34:12.409 --> 02:34:14.370
I'm not exactly sure what it does. It's supposed

02:34:14.370 --> 02:34:16.969
to regenerate collagen and do a bunch of different

02:34:16.969 --> 02:34:20.250
things. But it feels good. It feels good to stand

02:34:20.250 --> 02:34:23.329
in front of it. One of the things is, remember,

02:34:23.370 --> 02:34:25.090
we're saying that the eyes are actually a piece

02:34:25.090 --> 02:34:26.930
of brain. Your brain needs to know when to be

02:34:26.930 --> 02:34:28.729
awake and when to be asleep. One of the best

02:34:28.729 --> 02:34:31.270
ways to wake up your brain is to view bright

02:34:31.270 --> 02:34:33.110
light. And, you know, there are all these people

02:34:33.110 --> 02:34:35.110
that are fanatic about blue light out there.

02:34:35.629 --> 02:34:37.530
Viewing bright light in the morning from sunlight

02:34:37.530 --> 02:34:39.889
is the best thing. Like in Southern California,

02:34:39.969 --> 02:34:41.610
go outside two to 10 minutes of getting bright

02:34:41.610 --> 02:34:44.319
light. And then you want to avoid light. from

02:34:44.319 --> 02:34:47.120
like 11 p .m to 4 a .m actually it's been shown

02:34:47.120 --> 02:34:50.819
to suppress melatonin it can disrupt sleep it

02:34:50.819 --> 02:34:52.399
has a lot of problems you don't really want to

02:34:52.399 --> 02:34:53.920
be looking at any bright light in the middle

02:34:53.920 --> 02:34:55.899
of the night a lot of people get obsessed with

02:34:55.899 --> 02:34:58.159
blue light being bad you want bright light during

02:34:58.159 --> 02:35:00.379
the day and you don't want any bright light at

02:35:00.379 --> 02:35:03.219
night really too much of it and people come after

02:35:03.219 --> 02:35:04.819
me they're like the blue blockers you know i

02:35:04.819 --> 02:35:06.459
call it like the blue blockanistas have been

02:35:06.459 --> 02:35:08.200
coming after me recently because i'm out there

02:35:08.200 --> 02:35:10.379
saying like it's like what about the it's like

02:35:10.379 --> 02:35:12.840
look the blue blockers will help filter some

02:35:12.840 --> 02:35:15.079
light It'll make things less bright. It's hard

02:35:15.079 --> 02:35:17.559
to see with sunglasses in your house. So be my

02:35:17.559 --> 02:35:18.920
guest and wear them. But really what you want

02:35:18.920 --> 02:35:21.100
to do is dim the lights in the evening. Deeper

02:35:21.100 --> 02:35:24.200
sleep, melatonin suppression won't be a problem.

02:35:24.719 --> 02:35:26.879
That's all good. Get bright light first thing

02:35:26.879 --> 02:35:28.739
in the morning when you wake up. And then the

02:35:28.739 --> 02:35:30.959
bright red light is probably having a dual effect.

02:35:31.200 --> 02:35:32.899
It's probably increasing mitochondria in the

02:35:32.899 --> 02:35:34.680
photoreceptors if the study is right. And I do

02:35:34.680 --> 02:35:36.959
believe this study, it looks really good to me.

02:35:37.040 --> 02:35:38.600
And the person who did it has been in the game

02:35:38.600 --> 02:35:42.059
a long time. So I trust him. And in addition

02:35:42.059 --> 02:35:43.420
to that, it's going to wake up your system and

02:35:43.420 --> 02:35:45.819
get the balance of these hormones like you want

02:35:45.819 --> 02:35:48.379
cortisol high in the morning and melatonin coming

02:35:48.379 --> 02:35:50.680
up about 16 hours later before sleep. It's going

02:35:50.680 --> 02:35:52.840
to put all that into the right rhythm. So I say

02:35:52.840 --> 02:35:54.920
go ahead and do the red light thing. But if you

02:35:54.920 --> 02:35:57.200
want to pursue the red light flashes or the VR

02:35:57.200 --> 02:35:59.920
and maybe even the CNTF injection, we should

02:35:59.920 --> 02:36:02.059
talk about that. CNTF injection, you mean the

02:36:02.059 --> 02:36:03.959
bacteria? They squared it right in your eyeball?

02:36:04.079 --> 02:36:06.819
That's the growth factor, yeah. But I'm scared

02:36:06.819 --> 02:36:10.469
of that. Well, the good news is – The good news

02:36:10.469 --> 02:36:12.729
is that the VR, we do have a condition in the

02:36:12.729 --> 02:36:15.709
study where it's just VR. So it's a daily, you're

02:36:15.709 --> 02:36:18.350
essentially, you know, neurons like to be active.

02:36:18.389 --> 02:36:20.309
And these cells that connect the eye to the brain

02:36:20.309 --> 02:36:24.290
are the most, above all others, the most active

02:36:24.290 --> 02:36:26.989
neurons and cells in your entire body. Do you

02:36:26.989 --> 02:36:29.170
know of anybody who's done this where they had

02:36:29.170 --> 02:36:31.569
the injections in the eyes? Oh, yeah. Many people

02:36:31.569 --> 02:36:33.649
now in the study have had the injections. And

02:36:33.649 --> 02:36:37.000
what are the benefits? Well, so I want to be

02:36:37.000 --> 02:36:38.420
careful here. I can't talk about the results

02:36:38.420 --> 02:36:40.860
of a clinical trial, but I can say they're promising.

02:36:41.280 --> 02:36:44.479
And this isn't human. Just wink. Wink if you

02:36:44.479 --> 02:36:46.700
think I should do it. Wink if you can fix my

02:36:46.700 --> 02:36:48.799
eyes. Well, I think if you qualify for the study,

02:36:48.899 --> 02:36:51.219
I definitely think you should do it. Okay. But

02:36:51.219 --> 02:36:54.200
I can't reveal the results of the study because

02:36:54.200 --> 02:36:56.219
I actually don't know. In the name of good science,

02:36:56.299 --> 02:36:58.100
I'm blinded to the conditions. No pun, right?

02:36:58.239 --> 02:37:01.000
Like, I just don't know. But we have subjects

02:37:01.000 --> 02:37:03.600
or patients that are as young as 17, as old as

02:37:03.600 --> 02:37:08.770
80. And the beauty of this is that if you decide

02:37:08.770 --> 02:37:10.329
not to get the injection, it's completely non

02:37:10.329 --> 02:37:12.950
-invasive. How many injections do you have to

02:37:12.950 --> 02:37:14.870
have? I think it's like once a month for a period

02:37:14.870 --> 02:37:17.250
of about six months. So would I have to go to

02:37:17.250 --> 02:37:20.399
the Bay Area once a month? No, so there is another

02:37:20.399 --> 02:37:22.799
version of this where there's a slow -release

02:37:22.799 --> 02:37:26.319
polymer capsule that's placed into the eye. Oh,

02:37:26.319 --> 02:37:29.319
Jesus, that sounds even worse. Just inject me

02:37:29.319 --> 02:37:31.059
and get it over with. Well, someday we will have

02:37:31.059 --> 02:37:33.120
drops that will get through the vitreous and

02:37:33.120 --> 02:37:35.639
down there. We work on glaucoma in my lab. People

02:37:35.639 --> 02:37:39.020
for glaucoma take drops for eye pressure. But

02:37:39.020 --> 02:37:41.979
getting things into, you know, remember, it's

02:37:41.979 --> 02:37:44.899
brain. There's a reason why you have this tough

02:37:44.899 --> 02:37:46.540
sclera. I'm not going to be able to think that

02:37:46.540 --> 02:37:49.200
way. Okay. The brain thing is really fucking

02:37:49.200 --> 02:37:51.520
my head up. The fact that your eyeballs are your

02:37:51.520 --> 02:37:53.299
exposed brain. Two pieces of the brain. That

02:37:53.299 --> 02:37:56.500
is so nuts. Two pieces of the brain. And so visual

02:37:56.500 --> 02:37:59.219
repair is soon going to go the way of two other

02:37:59.219 --> 02:38:01.159
strategies. And I think we're going to see this

02:38:01.159 --> 02:38:03.479
in humans in the next couple years, meaning two

02:38:03.479 --> 02:38:05.780
years. Because I hate the 10 years thing. We've

02:38:05.780 --> 02:38:07.959
been hearing the 10 years thing forever. One

02:38:07.959 --> 02:38:10.299
is the work of someone that you've had on here

02:38:10.299 --> 02:38:12.340
before, David Sinclair. Love that dude. He's

02:38:12.340 --> 02:38:14.309
great. He's a terrific guy, both for sake of

02:38:14.309 --> 02:38:17.770
his work on combating aging and also just I really

02:38:17.770 --> 02:38:19.690
have to tip my hat to him because he was really

02:38:19.690 --> 02:38:21.510
first man in in terms of doing public facing

02:38:21.510 --> 02:38:23.870
science education through podcasts and things

02:38:23.870 --> 02:38:26.290
like that. And, you know, I'm starting to do

02:38:26.290 --> 02:38:28.450
that and others are starting to do it. And he

02:38:28.450 --> 02:38:30.770
deserves credit for that. It puts scientists

02:38:30.770 --> 02:38:32.329
in a vulnerable place. And I think he's doing

02:38:32.329 --> 02:38:34.409
it with a lot of integrity. He's also got a fun

02:38:34.409 --> 02:38:37.090
personality. So great guy. Yeah. So for him to

02:38:37.090 --> 02:38:39.930
get the point across. So David's not typically

02:38:39.930 --> 02:38:41.670
known for doing vision research, but he paired

02:38:41.670 --> 02:38:44.489
up. with another guy's lab, a guy named Zhigong

02:38:44.489 --> 02:38:47.430
He at Harvard Children's Hospital, someone I

02:38:47.430 --> 02:38:49.090
know very well. We worked together on a number

02:38:49.090 --> 02:38:51.770
of things. And they took advantage of what are

02:38:51.770 --> 02:38:53.649
called these Yamanaka factors. Yamanaka won the

02:38:53.649 --> 02:38:56.190
Nobel Prize for finding these four factors that

02:38:56.190 --> 02:38:58.870
could essentially allow a cell to turn into anything.

02:38:59.770 --> 02:39:02.229
any other cell type, kind of create stemness

02:39:02.229 --> 02:39:04.329
in these cells, make them pluripotent stem cells.

02:39:04.510 --> 02:39:07.149
The problem was that tends to induce cancers

02:39:07.149 --> 02:39:09.469
in these cells. So David's lab has combined an

02:39:09.469 --> 02:39:12.030
anti -cancer gene. I think these work are still

02:39:12.030 --> 02:39:13.610
not published, but he's talked about them, so

02:39:13.610 --> 02:39:15.709
I feel comfortable doing this. Suppresses cancer

02:39:15.709 --> 02:39:18.729
while turning these cells young again. And at

02:39:18.729 --> 02:39:21.030
least in mice, they see some very encouraging

02:39:21.030 --> 02:39:22.850
results. So that would be a sort of one injection

02:39:22.850 --> 02:39:24.629
kind of thing where you go in once, you get the

02:39:24.629 --> 02:39:26.370
injection, and then never again. If I did an

02:39:26.370 --> 02:39:29.280
injection once a month, How long are we talking?

02:39:29.399 --> 02:39:31.260
How many months do I have to do it for? So the

02:39:31.260 --> 02:39:32.979
study would probably run for about six months

02:39:32.979 --> 02:39:36.360
or the embedded capsule, the CNTF capsule combined

02:39:36.360 --> 02:39:38.600
with the VR. Now you have to put those VR goggles

02:39:38.600 --> 02:39:41.559
on for 20 minutes a day and watch this. That's

02:39:41.559 --> 02:39:42.959
easy. You can listen to music, do whatever you

02:39:42.959 --> 02:39:44.819
want. It's a very passive thing that triggers

02:39:44.819 --> 02:39:46.920
activity of these cells. The activity is key

02:39:46.920 --> 02:39:49.860
because we know that neurons, you know, you hear

02:39:49.860 --> 02:39:51.579
fire together, wire together and all this other

02:39:51.579 --> 02:39:53.159
stuff. But the fact of the matter is neurons

02:39:53.159 --> 02:39:56.530
that are. Even if you cast an arm, the neurons

02:39:56.530 --> 02:39:58.850
that support movement of that arm very quickly

02:39:58.850 --> 02:40:02.129
start to turn off and eventually they can die.

02:40:02.389 --> 02:40:05.469
So keeping neurons active and alive and healthy

02:40:05.469 --> 02:40:08.129
involves keeping them literally active electrically.

02:40:08.229 --> 02:40:09.950
And so that's what the VR component is about.

02:40:11.819 --> 02:40:13.600
There's the Sinclair kind of turning back the

02:40:13.600 --> 02:40:16.219
clock stuff. And then colleagues of mine at Stanford

02:40:16.219 --> 02:40:19.159
are doing incredible work with neural prosthesis,

02:40:19.260 --> 02:40:22.840
so little robotic retinas, as well as stem cells

02:40:22.840 --> 02:40:24.680
that are injected into the eye that settle down

02:40:24.680 --> 02:40:26.360
into your eye and give you the cells that you've

02:40:26.360 --> 02:40:28.739
lost. And we're not quite there with the human

02:40:28.739 --> 02:40:31.139
trials yet, but there's a group, the Retinal

02:40:31.139 --> 02:40:33.739
Repair Initiative. I'm part of this thing. It

02:40:33.739 --> 02:40:35.000
has a kind of funny name, but it's called the

02:40:35.000 --> 02:40:36.500
Retinal Dream Team, which is a bunch of people

02:40:36.500 --> 02:40:39.959
brought together to... cure blindness, to solve

02:40:39.959 --> 02:40:43.100
blindness in a particular disease called neurofibromatosis.

02:40:43.319 --> 02:40:46.100
So there are dozens of labs working extremely

02:40:46.100 --> 02:40:48.200
hard on this problem. This is one place where

02:40:48.200 --> 02:40:50.700
I can say there's been tremendous progress in

02:40:50.700 --> 02:40:52.860
the last five years. There are clinical trials

02:40:52.860 --> 02:40:54.639
now, for instance, the one in my lab. And in

02:40:54.639 --> 02:40:57.620
two or three years, you're going to start seeing

02:40:57.620 --> 02:40:59.680
people who would normally go blind. You're going

02:40:59.680 --> 02:41:01.579
to halt that. And you're going to see people

02:41:01.579 --> 02:41:04.360
who are completely blind. I think eventually

02:41:04.360 --> 02:41:07.670
those people will see again. Wow. Yeah. That's

02:41:07.670 --> 02:41:10.850
intense. It's amazing. It's amazing. And, you

02:41:10.850 --> 02:41:14.229
know, blind people, the mental real estate, but

02:41:14.229 --> 02:41:15.690
like the visual real estate in the brain gets

02:41:15.690 --> 02:41:19.010
taken over by other functions. There's this guy,

02:41:19.110 --> 02:41:21.049
Dan Mancina. He's a skateboarder. He's completely

02:41:21.049 --> 02:41:24.110
blind. He's an amazing guy. He skateboards blind?

02:41:24.309 --> 02:41:28.209
With a cane. Whoa. Rides up to curbs and handrails.

02:41:28.229 --> 02:41:30.530
Always onto him. Kick flips out. This kind of

02:41:30.530 --> 02:41:34.319
stuff. Yeah. I've talked to him a bunch of times

02:41:34.319 --> 02:41:36.059
because he was having some issues with his sleep.

02:41:36.120 --> 02:41:37.840
Because one of the issues that blind people have

02:41:37.840 --> 02:41:39.739
is because light is controlling when to be alert

02:41:39.739 --> 02:41:41.319
and when to be asleep. He was having some issues

02:41:41.319 --> 02:41:44.819
with this. So he contacted me. We're also in

02:41:44.819 --> 02:41:46.620
touch because he's trying to build skate parks

02:41:46.620 --> 02:41:49.000
for blind kids. There he is right there. Oh,

02:41:49.000 --> 02:41:51.719
yeah. Check out Dan. Wow. That's insane. He's

02:41:51.719 --> 02:41:54.200
such a beast. I mean, most people would be afraid

02:41:54.200 --> 02:41:57.700
to do this without, yeah. That's crazy. Yeah.

02:41:57.780 --> 02:42:01.479
And what's so great about Dan is he also, you

02:42:01.479 --> 02:42:04.520
know. That is nuts. He's in graduate school.

02:42:05.100 --> 02:42:07.600
I mean, he is such a machine. He's tapping things

02:42:07.600 --> 02:42:09.840
so he knows where they are. But how does he know

02:42:09.840 --> 02:42:12.319
the scale of the ramp or the pitch of the ramp?

02:42:12.520 --> 02:42:15.959
He has an internal representation of it. Wow.

02:42:16.260 --> 02:42:19.719
Yeah. That's bonkers. I wish he could see how

02:42:19.719 --> 02:42:24.280
cool it is. There he is. Yeah, he's... He teaches

02:42:24.280 --> 02:42:26.879
blind kids like what's possible, basically. Wow.

02:42:26.920 --> 02:42:29.399
Because talk about COVID and being indoors. Blind

02:42:29.399 --> 02:42:30.840
people, I spend a lot of time with blind people

02:42:30.840 --> 02:42:32.940
because of the visual restoration stuff. And

02:42:32.940 --> 02:42:34.399
there are people like Dan who are out there trying

02:42:34.399 --> 02:42:35.860
to get blind people to come out of their rooms

02:42:35.860 --> 02:42:39.139
to get into society. If you have a dog. You're

02:42:39.139 --> 02:42:41.120
better off, right? Because the dog, you outsource

02:42:41.120 --> 02:42:43.459
your vision to the dog. There are now glasses

02:42:43.459 --> 02:42:45.399
that blind people can wear and walk down the

02:42:45.399 --> 02:42:48.100
street. And it communicates with somebody in

02:42:48.100 --> 02:42:50.459
like a dispatcher who says, oh, you know what?

02:42:50.520 --> 02:42:52.319
There's someone sketchy over there to your right.

02:42:52.399 --> 02:42:54.319
You might want to cross the street. And it works

02:42:54.319 --> 02:42:56.420
really well, but it's very expensive. And of

02:42:56.420 --> 02:42:58.559
course, privacy is an issue. You get home, you

02:42:58.559 --> 02:43:00.379
start undressing. You don't want the person looking

02:43:00.379 --> 02:43:03.979
at you in the mirror. Or maybe people do, but

02:43:03.979 --> 02:43:05.940
that's a whole different business. But people

02:43:05.940 --> 02:43:10.479
like Dan are... And I do believe the hope is

02:43:10.479 --> 02:43:12.040
that people like Dan will eventually see again.

02:43:12.639 --> 02:43:16.040
Wow. But that's going to require new cells. And

02:43:16.040 --> 02:43:17.979
actually for him, he's going to need new eyes.

02:43:18.120 --> 02:43:20.440
So Dan actually has had, because he had this

02:43:20.440 --> 02:43:22.860
Coates disease that led to a retinitis pigmentosa,

02:43:23.000 --> 02:43:26.500
he had his eyes removed. Whoa. So whenever people

02:43:26.500 --> 02:43:28.360
are like, sometimes you'll see on social media,

02:43:28.399 --> 02:43:29.799
people will say, I don't believe he's blind.

02:43:29.979 --> 02:43:32.819
It's like, the guy doesn't even have eyes. Yeah.

02:43:32.879 --> 02:43:35.299
So anyway, there's a, that's a whole universe

02:43:35.299 --> 02:43:37.399
of stuff. But if you would like to explore visual

02:43:37.399 --> 02:43:39.299
repair and visual restoration, offsetting vision

02:43:39.299 --> 02:43:42.079
loss more, I'd be happy to further the discussion.

02:43:42.100 --> 02:43:43.920
Yeah, I would love to. Yeah. I'll be a guinea

02:43:43.920 --> 02:43:46.399
pig. Let's get the party rolling. Dude, we just

02:43:46.399 --> 02:43:49.629
did three hours. Oh my. Isn't that crazy? Sorry.

02:43:49.770 --> 02:43:52.370
No, I apologize. It was awesome. Great conversation.

02:43:52.829 --> 02:43:55.370
I really appreciate it. If people want to get

02:43:55.370 --> 02:43:58.530
a hold of you on social media, what's your Twitter?

02:43:58.610 --> 02:44:00.409
Do you have Twitter, Instagram? What do you have?

02:44:00.469 --> 02:44:01.889
I have a Twitter, but I don't use it. I'm on

02:44:01.889 --> 02:44:05.329
Instagram. It's Huberman Lab, H -U -B -E -R -M

02:44:05.329 --> 02:44:08.129
-A -N -L -A -B. I teach neuroscience there. I'm

02:44:08.129 --> 02:44:10.950
big on public education. Beautiful. And we recruit

02:44:10.950 --> 02:44:12.690
subjects to the lab for studies every now and

02:44:12.690 --> 02:44:15.229
again. I will announce them there. And yeah.

02:44:15.739 --> 02:44:17.680
That's the deal. Eventually, I'm supposed to

02:44:17.680 --> 02:44:20.040
write a book, but I've been too busy doing science.

02:44:20.219 --> 02:44:21.940
But listen, man, this was so much fun. And I

02:44:21.940 --> 02:44:23.819
think we could probably do 100 of these. So let's

02:44:23.819 --> 02:44:25.579
do it again. Great. Thank you very much. Thank

02:44:25.579 --> 02:44:27.340
you. Really appreciate you. All right. Bye, everybody.