WEBVTT

00:00:01.980 --> 00:00:07.459
Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1108. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Ketogenic Diet Science, Fasting Protocols, and Human Longevity Biochemistry. Four, three, two, one. Hello, Peter. Hello, Joe.

00:00:07.700 --> 00:00:10.679
What's going on, man? A whole lot. You were just

00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:12.500
telling me something that is one of the most

00:00:12.500 --> 00:00:15.220
ridiculous things I've ever heard. That you swam

00:00:15.220 --> 00:00:19.379
from Maui to Lanai. Right. And you're the only

00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:23.079
humans to ever do that. I'm told I was the first

00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:25.920
person to swim from Maui to Lanai and back. The

00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:28.940
one way is a pretty famous swim race that's done

00:00:28.940 --> 00:00:30.940
every year. You're the first person to do it.

00:00:31.309 --> 00:00:36.229
And go back. Fuck, dude. Why'd you do that? How

00:00:36.229 --> 00:00:39.509
long you got? It started when I was a boy. They

00:00:39.509 --> 00:00:43.229
told me I couldn't do it. What made you want

00:00:43.229 --> 00:00:45.630
to do that? That's a ridiculous proposition.

00:00:46.710 --> 00:00:50.350
So I got into, I decided in, this is going to

00:00:50.350 --> 00:00:53.289
sound silly. I read a book in January of 2004

00:00:53.289 --> 00:00:57.710
about this woman named Penny Dean, who. still

00:00:57.710 --> 00:00:59.770
to this day holds the record for the fastest

00:00:59.770 --> 00:01:02.049
crossing of the Catalina Channel. So swimming

00:01:02.049 --> 00:01:06.030
from Catalina Island to San Pedro, or to, you

00:01:06.030 --> 00:01:09.790
typically swim to Point Vicente. And she had

00:01:09.790 --> 00:01:12.430
done it in like seven hours and 20 minutes. And

00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:15.170
I was like, that's amazing. How far is that?

00:01:15.950 --> 00:01:18.969
As a crow flies, it's 21 miles. With the currents,

00:01:19.010 --> 00:01:21.549
it's a little longer. And I was like, you know,

00:01:21.569 --> 00:01:24.530
I really want to do this, but I got to learn

00:01:24.530 --> 00:01:27.569
how to swim. So that's three miles an hour swimming?

00:01:28.489 --> 00:01:32.590
She is a phenom. Penny Dean had a stroke rate

00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:35.469
of 90 strokes per minute, which, I mean, that

00:01:35.469 --> 00:01:36.689
might not mean anything to someone who doesn't

00:01:36.689 --> 00:01:40.709
swim, but, like, to have a hand hit the water

00:01:40.709 --> 00:01:44.049
every, you know, two -thirds of a second is a

00:01:44.049 --> 00:01:46.730
remarkable cadence. Yeah, I can't hold a cadence

00:01:46.730 --> 00:01:50.750
of that for 100 yards. Wow. And she did it for

00:01:50.750 --> 00:01:54.709
20 miles? Yeah. What a beast. She's out of control.

00:01:55.829 --> 00:01:57.930
Yeah. There's certain people like that, man,

00:01:57.950 --> 00:02:00.430
that freak me out. I think marathon swimming

00:02:00.430 --> 00:02:04.250
might be one sport where, if you just look at

00:02:04.250 --> 00:02:05.870
the numbers, I think women are better than men.

00:02:06.409 --> 00:02:08.669
Well, there's that woman who swam from Cuba to

00:02:08.669 --> 00:02:10.250
the United States, right? She was the first person

00:02:10.250 --> 00:02:11.729
ever to do that. Yeah, Diana Nyhan. And didn't

00:02:11.729 --> 00:02:14.750
she do it at a fairly advanced age? Yeah. I mean,

00:02:14.770 --> 00:02:16.509
she's, of course, got an amazing pedigree of

00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:18.969
swimming, and this wasn't her first rodeo. Right,

00:02:18.990 --> 00:02:21.009
right, right. Why do you think women are better

00:02:21.009 --> 00:02:25.379
than men? I mean, those of us that I'm not a

00:02:25.379 --> 00:02:27.280
member of this community anymore, but when I

00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:29.360
was, it was one of our favorite topics of discussion.

00:02:29.539 --> 00:02:32.539
I think opportunities or ideas that were put

00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:35.580
forth were higher pain tolerance, something about

00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:39.039
being, you know, evolving to be able to give

00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.319
birth just means they can tolerate pain a lot

00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:46.680
higher. I think another thing I've heard is buoyancy.

00:02:47.020 --> 00:02:48.900
Women are naturally going to have more body fat,

00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:50.840
which provides insulation. When you do these

00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.360
swims, you're not allowed any wetsuits or aids

00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:57.560
of any sort. Just shorts. You're in a Speedo

00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:00.080
and a single latex cap and that's it. And so

00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:05.000
I think women's hips, because they're going to

00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.759
have more fat on their hips, it corrects one

00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:09.680
of the big buoyancy issues that we have in swimming.

00:03:10.340 --> 00:03:13.020
We didn't evolve to swim. We're horrible at it

00:03:13.020 --> 00:03:16.680
naturally because we swim. Like this, we drag

00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:19.460
our hips through the water. And if you think

00:03:19.460 --> 00:03:22.199
about the importance of aerodynamics in most

00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:24.219
of the things that we think about, whether it

00:03:24.219 --> 00:03:27.300
be archery or race car driving or cycling, you

00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:29.120
know, in water it's that much more important

00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:31.500
because the density of water is, you know, thousands

00:03:31.500 --> 00:03:34.620
of times greater than air. So swimming is just

00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:38.939
100 % about avoiding drag. Wow. So, well, that

00:03:38.939 --> 00:03:42.530
totally makes sense. I just have been fascinated

00:03:42.530 --> 00:03:46.050
forever with people that are capable of pushing

00:03:46.050 --> 00:03:48.770
their brain to do things that other people just

00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:51.469
don't think are possible, like a Bigfoot 200

00:03:51.469 --> 00:03:55.870
race or any of those things. But the swim one

00:03:55.870 --> 00:03:58.430
is particularly crazy because you can't stop.

00:03:58.770 --> 00:04:01.150
Right. Like if you're running an ultramarathon

00:04:01.150 --> 00:04:03.009
and you just want to sit down for a couple minutes

00:04:03.009 --> 00:04:05.870
and just take a break, you can do that. But if

00:04:05.870 --> 00:04:09.009
you're swimming. There's not a damn thing you

00:04:09.009 --> 00:04:11.050
can do. You could tread water is about as good

00:04:11.050 --> 00:04:13.650
as it gets. But you can't touch the boat or the

00:04:13.650 --> 00:04:15.569
kayak or it's an immediate disqualification.

00:04:15.689 --> 00:04:22.269
Oh, God. That's so crazy, Matt. That is such

00:04:22.269 --> 00:04:25.279
a... Wow. So you heard about this woman doing

00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:27.259
it. I read this book and I was like, I really

00:04:27.259 --> 00:04:30.160
want to do this. At the time, I was actually

00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.379
in my residency in Baltimore. And I was like,

00:04:33.420 --> 00:04:34.899
you know, I really want to do this. And I'm going

00:04:34.899 --> 00:04:36.519
to have to learn how to swim to do it. So I started

00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:40.800
taking swimming lessons. And then, I mean, to

00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:42.680
make a very long story short, basically by about

00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:46.019
the summer of 2005, I entered my first swim race,

00:04:46.060 --> 00:04:49.399
which was a two -mile swim race in Lake Reston,

00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:53.430
Virginia. And I did it. I was like, oh, my God,

00:04:53.470 --> 00:04:56.389
I just swam two miles in the open water. You

00:04:56.389 --> 00:04:58.589
know, it was hard, but I was like, okay, that's

00:04:58.589 --> 00:05:00.490
the proof of concept. Now you just got to figure

00:05:00.490 --> 00:05:05.990
out how to make it 20, 25 miles. And so I just,

00:05:06.069 --> 00:05:09.370
you know, went completely psycho and ratcheted

00:05:09.370 --> 00:05:14.550
up the training. And then in October of 2005,

00:05:14.750 --> 00:05:18.089
I did my first Catalina swim. Wow. That's got

00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:20.769
to be a pretty good feeling, though, when you're

00:05:20.769 --> 00:05:23.569
done that you are capable of pushing yourself

00:05:23.569 --> 00:05:26.689
to what most people think is an impossible distance.

00:05:27.970 --> 00:05:30.389
Yeah. I mean, people you asked a moment ago,

00:05:30.410 --> 00:05:32.949
why do you do this? I would say that in life,

00:05:33.170 --> 00:05:36.350
velocity means very little. Acceleration means

00:05:36.350 --> 00:05:39.029
everything. So what do I mean by that? Right.

00:05:39.069 --> 00:05:42.189
Like if you're going 650 miles an hour in an

00:05:42.189 --> 00:05:44.709
airplane, you don't actually feel it. You only

00:05:44.709 --> 00:05:48.879
feel when speed changes. So I've always had this

00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:52.920
theory that emotionally that's also true. Like

00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:55.959
happiness is only interesting when it's juxtaposed

00:05:55.959 --> 00:06:00.139
with sadness. And so the feeling of crawling

00:06:00.139 --> 00:06:02.800
on the shore after you've been swimming for 12

00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.139
to 14 hours is amazing. But what makes it especially

00:06:06.139 --> 00:06:09.720
amazing is that six hours earlier you thought

00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:12.639
you were going to die. So you start these swims

00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:14.279
in the middle of the night to avoid the shipping

00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:18.410
traffic. So that first swim, boat drops you off

00:06:18.410 --> 00:06:22.389
at Catalina Island. It's midnight. That's a darkness

00:06:22.389 --> 00:06:24.610
you can't imagine. Like you can't even see L

00:06:24.610 --> 00:06:27.370
.A. from Catalina. You have to swim for six hours

00:06:27.370 --> 00:06:29.269
before you even see the lights of Los Angeles.

00:06:29.589 --> 00:06:33.709
Really? Yeah. What do you see? The stars and

00:06:33.709 --> 00:06:36.850
the phospho, like bioluminescent organisms in

00:06:36.850 --> 00:06:40.129
the water. Whoa. Which is incredible. I mean,

00:06:40.149 --> 00:06:42.269
that's worth the price of admission. So every

00:06:42.269 --> 00:06:44.879
time your hand comes through the water. You're

00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.180
pulling and ripping these little things, and

00:06:47.180 --> 00:06:49.600
you're seeing the sparks. And you can't tell

00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.800
where the water ends and the sky starts. In other

00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:54.819
words, the stars and the bioluminescence looks

00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:59.339
like one cylinder. Wow. So for the first few

00:06:59.339 --> 00:07:01.939
hours, that's cool. But then, you know, on my

00:07:01.939 --> 00:07:05.560
first swim, the water was incredibly rough. I

00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.860
had only swum in the ocean for two weeks before

00:07:07.860 --> 00:07:10.160
the swim. I did all my training in a swimming

00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:14.579
pool and a lake on the East Coast. So now I look,

00:07:14.620 --> 00:07:16.480
I wasn't used to how to keep the salt water out

00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.899
of my mouth. Right. So then I was like puking

00:07:18.899 --> 00:07:22.439
my guts out. And then my. While you were swimming,

00:07:22.500 --> 00:07:24.000
you're puking your guts out? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.259
How does that work? You just stop and puke and

00:07:27.259 --> 00:07:30.720
then keep swimming. Wow. And then, but then my

00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.240
tongue started to get really swollen from the

00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:35.560
salt water. Because again, as I would learn later

00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:37.720
on, I would go on to do many more of these swims.

00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:41.120
But what I learned is the importance of spitting

00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.529
the water out of your mouth very quickly. In

00:07:43.529 --> 00:07:46.509
a freshwater pool or lake, you get away with

00:07:46.509 --> 00:07:49.370
more. But in the ocean, you swallow that saltwater,

00:07:49.470 --> 00:07:52.069
you're going to get sick as hell. So all this

00:07:52.069 --> 00:07:55.050
stuff's going on. So by five in the morning,

00:07:55.170 --> 00:07:57.769
you've been swimming for five hours. You're getting

00:07:57.769 --> 00:08:01.829
cold. You're, I mean, you know, frankly, just

00:08:01.829 --> 00:08:04.350
physiologically, like your cortisol levels are

00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:06.839
at an eight or you're just. You feel horrible.

00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:09.199
It's like it's a really bad feeling. And you're

00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.600
not even halfway there. And it's like you don't

00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:13.079
know if you can do it and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:08:13.699 --> 00:08:16.060
Well, if six hours later you're now crawling

00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:17.759
out of the water feeling like you've done this

00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:20.939
amazing thing, that's emotional acceleration.

00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:24.899
That's like the greatest contrast. I know what

00:08:24.899 --> 00:08:25.959
you're saying. I mean, I've never experienced

00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:29.449
that. I was explaining the other day to a friend

00:08:29.449 --> 00:08:31.709
of mine about this camping trip that we went

00:08:31.709 --> 00:08:34.129
on in Montana when it was like nine degrees outside.

00:08:34.250 --> 00:08:36.990
It was freezing cold. We stayed out there for

00:08:36.990 --> 00:08:39.830
five, six days. And then when we finally got

00:08:39.830 --> 00:08:41.789
to a hotel room, I took a shower and it was the

00:08:41.789 --> 00:08:44.350
most amazing shower I've ever experienced in

00:08:44.350 --> 00:08:46.990
my life. And that's a small thing. But you take

00:08:46.990 --> 00:08:49.590
a shower every day and it's a big deal when you

00:08:49.590 --> 00:08:51.830
do it in that setting. Or think about the meal

00:08:51.830 --> 00:08:54.580
you've had if you've been. In a similar situation,

00:08:54.779 --> 00:08:57.200
yeah. Or starving or lost at sea. Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:57.580 --> 00:09:01.799
I can't imagine. So now that you've done – how

00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:03.559
many of these have you done, these crazy swim

00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:06.500
races? Or swim – what would you call them? Several.

00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:09.539
Yeah. Usually these major, major ones are not

00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:13.049
races. You're on your own. You have to – You

00:09:13.049 --> 00:09:15.070
go to the federation that oversees that body

00:09:15.070 --> 00:09:16.929
of water and you say, hey, I want to do this.

00:09:17.009 --> 00:09:19.409
And then you go through all the channels to do

00:09:19.409 --> 00:09:21.450
it. They have to have an observer there and you

00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:23.289
follow these official rules. So that you can

00:09:23.289 --> 00:09:25.169
be registered as someone who's actually completed

00:09:25.169 --> 00:09:27.029
it. Right. And someone's there to make sure you

00:09:27.029 --> 00:09:31.570
did it correctly. I don't know. I've probably

00:09:31.570 --> 00:09:34.570
done all in probably like a dozen of these, but

00:09:34.570 --> 00:09:37.210
probably like six of them really long ones. What's

00:09:37.210 --> 00:09:41.669
the longest? Well. That's a good question. The

00:09:41.669 --> 00:09:44.850
Maui one was 20 miles there and back, so 40 miles

00:09:44.850 --> 00:09:48.169
total? No, no, no. The Maui channel is a 10 -mile

00:09:48.169 --> 00:09:51.230
channel, so round trip is 20. The bigger question

00:09:51.230 --> 00:09:54.009
is time in the water because you rarely get to

00:09:54.009 --> 00:09:56.090
swim these in a straight line. So the Maui -Lenai

00:09:56.090 --> 00:10:00.490
one, I wanted to go Maui -Lenai -Molokai -Maui

00:10:00.490 --> 00:10:02.629
to do the triangle. And that would have been

00:10:02.629 --> 00:10:06.009
30 miles as a crow flies. But we just, you know.

00:10:06.409 --> 00:10:08.590
Boat captain wasn't willing to do it at night

00:10:08.590 --> 00:10:10.850
because of the tiger sharks. And during the daytime,

00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:14.629
we couldn't physiologically figure out how one

00:10:14.629 --> 00:10:17.909
could suffer against the wind because the wind

00:10:17.909 --> 00:10:20.490
gets so brutal in the middle of the day. So even

00:10:20.490 --> 00:10:22.309
the one that I did, which was just the there

00:10:22.309 --> 00:10:26.850
and back, I ended up swimming for 12 hours because

00:10:26.850 --> 00:10:30.230
on the first way crossing where there was no

00:10:30.230 --> 00:10:33.009
wind, it took me four hours. And then it took

00:10:33.009 --> 00:10:36.259
eight hours to get back. Because I was swimming

00:10:36.259 --> 00:10:38.600
like the hypotenuse of a triangle, right? Like

00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.679
the current's going this way. So I had to swim

00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.100
this way just to go in a straight line. And I

00:10:44.100 --> 00:10:47.759
still couldn't. I almost missed Maui. Jesus Christ.

00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:50.879
So I almost got swept out to Molokai just because

00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.220
the current was about 1 .7 knots, which is about

00:10:54.220 --> 00:10:57.700
as fast as I can swim. Maybe two knots. Fuck.

00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.019
That is a ridiculous thing, man. Why are you

00:11:03.019 --> 00:11:06.740
doing this? This is maniacal. Well, I don't do

00:11:06.740 --> 00:11:09.139
it anymore. I mean, it was certainly, it was

00:11:09.139 --> 00:11:13.080
an amazing season of my life, but I think once

00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:17.559
my daughter was born, which was 10 years ago

00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:21.840
this summer, that's when I, I only probably did

00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:24.159
two of these after she was born because then

00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:26.500
the training just got so, I just, you got to

00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:28.139
live in the water if you want to do this sport.

00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.740
Like you got to, including the winter. you know,

00:11:31.779 --> 00:11:34.080
like, you know, even in San Diego where I live,

00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:36.919
it's still, you know, 55 degrees in the water

00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:38.320
and you're going to spend three, four hours a

00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.820
day in the water freezing, you know, it's just,

00:11:41.860 --> 00:11:43.580
so I was like, you know, I just don't have the,

00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:47.960
the, the drive to spend 25 hours a week swimming.

00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:51.759
Yeah. What was the, what was going on in San

00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:53.860
Diego when that guy got bit in half by a shark

00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:55.700
a couple of years back, they were training for

00:11:55.700 --> 00:11:58.679
something. Yeah. That's funny. You remember that

00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:01.669
that was May of 2008. I remember that like it

00:12:01.669 --> 00:12:03.389
was yesterday. So at the time I lived in San

00:12:03.389 --> 00:12:05.929
Francisco and this is actually just before I

00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:08.230
swam the Maui thing. Now that I think about it,

00:12:08.230 --> 00:12:09.690
that was 10 years ago. I swam the Maui thing

00:12:09.690 --> 00:12:14.230
in June of 06, June of 08. So I'm doing all my

00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:16.870
training in a swimming pool up in San Francisco

00:12:16.870 --> 00:12:20.210
because I don't want to acclimate to very cold

00:12:20.210 --> 00:12:23.210
water. I actually want to be in warm water, but

00:12:23.210 --> 00:12:26.250
I needed one long ocean swim of like 14 or 15

00:12:26.250 --> 00:12:29.779
miles as my like last training swim. So I came

00:12:29.779 --> 00:12:32.779
down to San Diego to do it. And just by bad luck,

00:12:32.980 --> 00:12:35.639
I came down a few days after that guy was killed.

00:12:36.379 --> 00:12:39.100
Now, this was a guy, I didn't know him, but he

00:12:39.100 --> 00:12:41.820
was a triathlete training with a triathlon group

00:12:41.820 --> 00:12:43.340
that they would go out and swim every morning.

00:12:43.460 --> 00:12:45.360
And I know the beach exactly where it happened

00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:49.019
in Solana Beach. And unfortunately, like most

00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:51.080
people who get attacked by great whites, they

00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.879
have a very, they always attack the same way.

00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.559
which is below and behind stealth bite up and

00:12:57.559 --> 00:12:59.980
then they retreat. So they're trying to basically

00:12:59.980 --> 00:13:02.600
injure the prey so their prey exsanguinates and

00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:04.019
then they take off and then they wait till you

00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:07.840
bleed out. So they never saw the shark, but you

00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:10.759
could tell from the bite marks it was. I actually

00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.899
had a friend who was on the beach and saw him

00:13:13.899 --> 00:13:16.740
when he came out and he was basically dead when

00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:19.440
he got to shore. He had bled to death. The problem

00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.299
is, so in this case, the shark had bit him and

00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:24.210
cut through his femoral arteries and veins. And

00:13:24.210 --> 00:13:26.850
the salt water prevents you from having any hemostasis.

00:13:26.850 --> 00:13:31.269
So it exacerbates the blood loss. So that's generally

00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:33.590
how folks perish when they're bit by great whites.

00:13:33.590 --> 00:13:36.409
How did they get him out of the water? You know,

00:13:36.429 --> 00:13:38.210
a bunch of other swimmers came to his rescue.

00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:41.029
And luckily that commotion prevents the sharks

00:13:41.029 --> 00:13:44.429
from wanting to come back. So three days later,

00:13:44.529 --> 00:13:47.250
I go out and I'm swimming at that beach. Because

00:13:47.250 --> 00:13:50.330
I swam from, my training swim was La Jolla up

00:13:50.330 --> 00:13:54.710
to Solana Beach and back. I got to tell you,

00:13:54.730 --> 00:13:56.929
like three days after a guy dies where you're

00:13:56.929 --> 00:14:01.230
swimming, it was about one of the most mentally

00:14:01.230 --> 00:14:05.669
challenging training swims to be like. Because

00:14:05.669 --> 00:14:08.190
you can't see. Like the water at that part of

00:14:08.190 --> 00:14:10.330
the beach is so murky. You know, and you're only

00:14:10.330 --> 00:14:13.269
a couple hundred yards offshore that like you

00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:14.970
can barely see your hands when you're swimming.

00:14:16.429 --> 00:14:19.009
And so you're just thinking, is this the day?

00:14:20.450 --> 00:14:26.049
Dude. Yeah, I'm not interested in that. Gee,

00:14:26.070 --> 00:14:27.629
I can't see why. Yeah, there's just something

00:14:27.629 --> 00:14:30.429
about sharks, too. I mean, they're, to me, one

00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:32.309
of the most terrifying things. First of all,

00:14:32.370 --> 00:14:35.570
we're so inept in the water. I mean, even a person

00:14:35.570 --> 00:14:37.470
like you, who's a great swimmer. Yeah, yeah,

00:14:37.470 --> 00:14:40.210
we're a joke. Yeah, what we are in comparison

00:14:40.210 --> 00:14:43.149
to what they are, it's just you're throwing yourself

00:14:43.149 --> 00:14:47.389
into the world of a super predator. And to know

00:14:47.389 --> 00:14:49.629
that one just jacked a person just a few days

00:14:49.629 --> 00:14:51.070
before and you're out there swimming around.

00:14:52.309 --> 00:14:54.129
Yeah, although I will say this. You know, when

00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:56.450
it's all said and done, all of the close encounters

00:14:56.450 --> 00:14:58.710
I've had, probably the scariest moment I've ever

00:14:58.710 --> 00:15:00.750
had in the water was doing a swim from Santa

00:15:00.750 --> 00:15:03.070
Rosa to Santa Barbara. So Santa Rosa Island,

00:15:03.230 --> 00:15:06.049
which is the second furthest north Channel Island.

00:15:06.110 --> 00:15:08.350
You've got San Miguel, Santa Rosa, Santa Cruz,

00:15:08.409 --> 00:15:10.690
and Anacapa represent the top four Channel Islands.

00:15:11.330 --> 00:15:14.429
So we did this November swim. It was a nighttime

00:15:14.429 --> 00:15:16.710
thing again, swimming from Santa Rosa Island

00:15:16.710 --> 00:15:21.610
to Santa Barbara. At about five in the morning,

00:15:21.649 --> 00:15:23.269
maybe six in the morning, you're just starting

00:15:23.269 --> 00:15:25.490
to get enough light where you can see and you're

00:15:25.490 --> 00:15:27.289
out there. So you really have amazing visibility.

00:15:27.750 --> 00:15:32.950
And I look down probably 40 feet and I see this

00:15:32.950 --> 00:15:37.929
enormous thing swimming like this, which is how

00:15:37.929 --> 00:15:40.669
sharks swim. And I see the dorsal fin in the

00:15:40.669 --> 00:15:43.330
position that freaks me out and the tails this

00:15:43.330 --> 00:15:47.470
way. All of that is shark. Right. And I like,

00:15:47.490 --> 00:15:49.860
you know. like lift up out of the water, kind

00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:51.620
of hyperventilate for a second. And I'm thinking

00:15:51.620 --> 00:15:53.220
to myself, all right, you got to make a judgment

00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:55.139
call here. If that's really a great white, you

00:15:55.139 --> 00:15:57.500
probably ought to get out of the water. But if

00:15:57.500 --> 00:15:59.100
you, the moment you're out of the water, that's

00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:01.279
it. The swim is over. Like you just spent like

00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:05.740
months doing this. Like it's done. So then I

00:16:05.740 --> 00:16:07.759
convinced myself and I think I'm right. I think

00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:10.259
it was a dolphin on its side because a dolphin

00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.899
on its side would, its fin would, its tail fin

00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:15.159
would be the same way and it could swim that

00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:17.179
way. So in the end, I just kept swimming. But

00:16:17.179 --> 00:16:18.720
I mean, that scared the shit out of me. Well,

00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:20.879
they have seen quite a few of them off the coast

00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:23.580
of Malibu. Oh, there's tons. There's no question.

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.679
They are way more plentiful than we realize.

00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:29.720
And all you can do is talk to the fishermen.

00:16:29.899 --> 00:16:32.460
The fishermen will tell you. They're like, off

00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:35.759
Coronado? I mean, it's like there's nonstop great

00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:39.179
whites. Really? Oh, yeah. Why are you freaking

00:16:39.179 --> 00:16:44.139
me out, Peter? The good news is... They see us

00:16:44.139 --> 00:16:46.480
all the time, and most of the time they realize

00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.519
we're not what they want. Yeah, they want seals,

00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:50.799
right? Yeah. Whenever they attack us, they're

00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.379
making a mistake. Now, is there like a suit you

00:16:54.379 --> 00:16:56.960
can wear, like a Kevlar suit that protects you

00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.039
from getting bitten in half? No, but this is

00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.419
so funny you bring this up. I became obsessed

00:17:02.419 --> 00:17:06.859
with this thing called the – oh, what was it

00:17:06.859 --> 00:17:10.420
called? Christ. You put the thing on your ankle

00:17:10.420 --> 00:17:12.000
like you had like a little Velcro thing. You'd

00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.059
wrap it on your ankle and had a tail like this

00:17:14.059 --> 00:17:16.900
long, you know, like four foot long thing. And

00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:20.200
it was charged and it sends out an electrical

00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:24.259
impulse that disturbs the shit out of the sharks.

00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.660
The shark's nose is an organ that senses electricity.

00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.559
So when a shark like it could be pitch black,

00:17:31.660 --> 00:17:34.220
it could be soot water and they can still scope

00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:36.640
you, you know, from hundreds of yards away based

00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.839
on the electrical activity of your heart. And

00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:41.039
that organ is their nose. So this little thing,

00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:43.160
I forget what it was called, like the shark taser

00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.160
or some shit. It puts out a signal that like

00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:47.900
tases them and they don't want to get within

00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:49.740
like. Oh, there it is. James got it up here.

00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:52.660
The world's first shark deterrent band. It's

00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:56.440
called the shark bands. One on the wrist or ankle.

00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:58.700
I don't know. I thought it had a different name.

00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:01.440
But because the one that I was going to get and

00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:03.539
did a ton of research into had a really long

00:18:03.539 --> 00:18:06.059
tail hanging off it. And that became the problem.

00:18:06.569 --> 00:18:09.630
It uses patented magnetic technology to repel

00:18:09.630 --> 00:18:11.869
sharks. So the tail was a problem because of

00:18:11.869 --> 00:18:14.950
the drag? No, because it would, it sounds silly,

00:18:15.009 --> 00:18:16.690
but it would come up and zap you in the nuts.

00:18:16.890 --> 00:18:20.569
Oh, Christ. So it became unbearable to practice

00:18:20.569 --> 00:18:23.690
swimming in this thing because you're like, every

00:18:23.690 --> 00:18:28.589
37 seconds you'd get zapped by the tail. And

00:18:28.589 --> 00:18:30.849
I was just like, yes. I like how it says reduce

00:18:30.849 --> 00:18:33.690
the risk. Oh, yeah. Can I get some numbers, please?

00:18:35.549 --> 00:18:38.589
I don't want to just hear reduce. By how much?

00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:44.710
By 1 % statistically. And it also is a leash

00:18:44.710 --> 00:18:47.769
for your surfboard, too. You can use one of those

00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:54.049
to strap it to your ankle. Yeah, no. It's going

00:18:54.049 --> 00:18:55.549
to come to me like in an hour. I'll remember

00:18:55.549 --> 00:18:57.109
what this silly thing was called. Jamie will

00:18:57.109 --> 00:18:59.769
probably find it. Off of Catalina, I know it's

00:18:59.769 --> 00:19:02.750
one of the best shark fishing places in the world.

00:19:02.910 --> 00:19:05.349
I have a friend of mine who told me that. If

00:19:05.349 --> 00:19:07.809
you think about like wild places on earth that

00:19:07.809 --> 00:19:10.069
are just overrun with predators and terrifying

00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:14.650
like predator prey activity, Catalina Island

00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:17.690
is one of the top spots in the world. I was like,

00:19:17.710 --> 00:19:20.069
what are you talking about? He's like, I'm telling

00:19:20.069 --> 00:19:23.069
you, man, the shark fishing off Catalina Island

00:19:23.069 --> 00:19:26.130
is fucking insane. And then I watched a television

00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:29.509
show just. you know, synchronicity a couple days

00:19:29.509 --> 00:19:32.390
later. And it was these guys shark fishing off

00:19:32.390 --> 00:19:34.990
of Catalina. I was like, what in the fuck? I

00:19:34.990 --> 00:19:37.470
could have never guessed. They're catching makos

00:19:37.470 --> 00:19:40.849
mostly. Yeah. And it's actually my recollection

00:19:40.849 --> 00:19:43.250
because we swam around Catalina once as well.

00:19:43.289 --> 00:19:46.269
The backside is way more aggressive than the

00:19:46.269 --> 00:19:49.150
front side. The side that faces the Pacific rather

00:19:49.150 --> 00:19:51.529
than faces Los Angeles. That's right. Yeah, there's

00:19:51.529 --> 00:19:53.170
way more crazy stuff out there. Yeah, I think

00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:55.230
that's exactly where they were. Yeah, it looked

00:19:55.230 --> 00:19:57.069
pretty nuts. I mean, they were bringing in these

00:19:57.069 --> 00:19:59.430
15 -foot sharks. I mean, I was like, what in

00:19:59.430 --> 00:20:01.650
the fuck? These are just floating around out

00:20:01.650 --> 00:20:05.930
there. You know? I mean, I guess, of course they

00:20:05.930 --> 00:20:08.470
are, right? I mean, there's a lot of fish out

00:20:08.470 --> 00:20:12.589
there as well. Catalina is amazing. Pretty crazy.

00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.900
I'd swum to it. I'd swum from it. I'd swum around

00:20:16.900 --> 00:20:18.440
it. I'd done a milling thing and I'd never stepped

00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:19.960
foot on it except at the beginning or end of

00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:22.779
a swim until five years ago I went there for

00:20:22.779 --> 00:20:24.839
a vacation. Like actually just went to Avalon

00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.240
for, you know, three days. I'm like, it's not

00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.380
a place I could live. It's a little, you know,

00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:32.960
too quiet. But for three or four days, it was

00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:37.200
amazing. I think people hunt on Catalina. They've

00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.680
got huge buffalo there. Is that what it is? Yeah.

00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:41.619
So apparently there was a movie that was made

00:20:41.619 --> 00:20:43.519
there back in the 20s or something like that.

00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:44.839
And they just let a bunch of buffalo loose? Well,

00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:46.460
they had a bunch of buffalo, yeah, for the movie.

00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:48.940
And I guess they never corralled or some sort

00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:51.160
of shit. So it's totally overrun with buffalo.

00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.059
Well, there was one of the Channel Islands that

00:20:54.059 --> 00:20:57.339
they had actually turned into a bow hunting destination.

00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.220
Like they had brought in a bunch of deer. I think

00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:03.519
they brought in stags and a bunch of weird exotic

00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:05.700
shit. And they put them on this island. I think

00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:09.720
they even had elk. biologists just weren't having

00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.160
it. They're like, this is just so out of whack.

00:21:12.339 --> 00:21:15.299
Yeah. And so they had them eradicated. And the

00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:17.700
way they do that is it's pretty gruesome. They

00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:20.599
just gun down from the air and just leave the

00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:22.980
bodies. Yeah. They just decided that they were

00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:25.200
an invasive species regardless of how valuable

00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.279
they might have been to people that wanted to

00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.440
go there and eat them. You know, they just decided

00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.900
just for the ecosystem alone. And there's no

00:21:32.900 --> 00:21:35.269
predators there. And they weren't going to. turn

00:21:35.269 --> 00:21:37.190
the fucking island into wild kingdom and bring

00:21:37.190 --> 00:21:39.089
wolves or something in there, which would be

00:21:39.089 --> 00:21:41.029
pretty goddamn crazy. Imagine if there was an

00:21:41.029 --> 00:21:42.930
island you could go and they just had wolves

00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:46.289
and elk running around on an island. Well, I'm

00:21:46.289 --> 00:21:47.950
surprised they would gun them all down, at least

00:21:47.950 --> 00:21:49.750
say make it open season for hunting or something

00:21:49.750 --> 00:21:51.430
like that. They could have been productive about

00:21:51.430 --> 00:21:54.549
it. Well, that's an interesting perspective.

00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:57.980
So biologists look at it. In terms of the entire

00:21:57.980 --> 00:21:59.940
ecosystem, right? They're looking in terms of

00:21:59.940 --> 00:22:03.859
the plants, the amount of waste, fecal waste

00:22:03.859 --> 00:22:06.240
that these animals are leaving behind. The fact

00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.619
that they're literally eating everything that

00:22:08.619 --> 00:22:10.240
they can on this island. They're not supposed

00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.240
to be there. And then they're competing with

00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:16.380
whatever things are native to that island. And

00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:18.319
probably, I mean, if you've got a thousand pound

00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:20.119
elk, it's not supposed to be on a fucking island.

00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:22.339
This thing is just eating everything it can.

00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.119
And they don't. They don't have a winter either.

00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:27.259
So it's just like the whole, like they're just

00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:28.799
not supposed to be there. The Channel Islands

00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.559
themselves are kind of amazing. I mean, most

00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:33.039
people know of Catalina, but, you know, there's

00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.720
eight of them. And now two of them you can't

00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.380
step foot on. You're not allowed to? No, San

00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:41.039
Clemente and San Nicolas. They're military bases.

00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.880
Oh, okay. So we tried to do a swim from San Nicolas

00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:46.539
back to Los Angeles. This was a relay swim because

00:22:46.539 --> 00:22:51.859
this is like an 85 -mile swim. I spent like six

00:22:51.859 --> 00:22:53.720
months researching it, speaking to a bunch of

00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.720
naval officers. I was like, hey, is there any

00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.099
way we can – because you officially have to start

00:22:58.099 --> 00:22:59.900
a swim. You have to be able to touch dry land

00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:01.920
and be out of the water. And they're like, yeah,

00:23:01.940 --> 00:23:04.039
you can't come on the island. So in the end,

00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:05.599
what we decided was we were just going to do

00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.220
a stealth landing. By the time they came down

00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.140
and screamed at us and shot at us, we'd have

00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:13.819
been off the island. But then we got to the island.

00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:15.660
Now, the other big thing about San Nick is that's

00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:17.279
real shark territory because that's where the

00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.500
elephant seals live. So when we got out there,

00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:24.099
we literally could not get to shore because of

00:23:24.099 --> 00:23:27.380
the elephant seals. Like we're 200 yards off

00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:29.900
Sand Neck. And, you know, this is after taking

00:23:29.900 --> 00:23:32.019
a full two days to get out there. I mean, this

00:23:32.019 --> 00:23:33.799
place is really hard to get to because the water

00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:36.240
is brutal and you're not in a huge boat. And

00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:39.200
yeah, you're looking at like thousand pound elephant

00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.079
seals that are just like licking their chops,

00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.460
looking at you trying to get in the water. What

00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:45.460
would they do with you? I didn't want to find

00:23:45.460 --> 00:23:48.079
out. But they're not predatory, right? I mean,

00:23:48.099 --> 00:23:50.220
I don't think. No, I mean, I think they're aggressive

00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:52.319
as hell. Did you see that video of the little

00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:54.880
girl that's sitting on a dock and a seal jumps

00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.279
up and grabs her in the ass and pulls her into

00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:59.740
the water? Did you ever see that, Jamie? Yeah,

00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:01.880
and I didn't think that seals ever did something

00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:04.779
like that before. I don't know. I did see a special

00:24:04.779 --> 00:24:07.039
once about how dolphins could be kind of aggressive

00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:09.900
with each other. Like they could harm, you know.

00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.680
Here it is. Look at this. So the seal is sitting

00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.660
there and this girl. The sea lion, actually.

00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:18.779
Look at this. It comes up, and they think the

00:24:18.779 --> 00:24:19.700
sea lion's being cute. I think it's all cute.

00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:26.759
Yeah. But I think it was probably looking for

00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:28.680
a handout, and these people weren't giving it

00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:31.059
to her. Oh, and then she turns her butt. Oh,

00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:37.720
my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Jesus. Yeah,

00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:41.720
fuck that thing. Oh, man. I'd be like, I'd be

00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.130
right back. Fill that fucking puddle with lead.

00:24:45.609 --> 00:24:49.349
Oh, my God. Imagine if that bit your kid. Oh,

00:24:49.369 --> 00:24:51.650
yeah, yeah. Yeah, they jumped up fast. Yeah,

00:24:51.730 --> 00:24:54.970
they're predators. I mean, they eat things. They're

00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:57.210
not eating plants in the water. They're eating

00:24:57.210 --> 00:24:59.309
fish and shit, whatever they can get a hold of.

00:24:59.369 --> 00:25:00.990
They probably eat birds and stuff, too. They're

00:25:00.990 --> 00:25:02.970
probably used to scooping things up. But I bet

00:25:02.970 --> 00:25:05.769
what that's from is them getting too acclimated

00:25:05.769 --> 00:25:08.470
to people, people feeding them. Oh, for sure.

00:25:09.210 --> 00:25:15.509
Yeah, they have an issue in Boulder. Where Boulder

00:25:15.509 --> 00:25:18.910
is – have you ever been to Colorado? Yeah. Beautiful,

00:25:19.190 --> 00:25:22.509
right? Gorgeous. Super liberal. Like as progressive

00:25:22.509 --> 00:25:25.750
as it gets, right? You haven't been to San Francisco.

00:25:25.869 --> 00:25:28.589
Oh, I have. Yeah. I think Boulder is right up

00:25:28.589 --> 00:25:31.750
there but there's less people. Everyone is real

00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:34.089
healthy and active and hiking and stuff like

00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:38.000
that. They don't allow – hunting for mountain

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.019
goats on the weekends because there's so many

00:25:41.019 --> 00:25:44.740
people hiking and they don't want people killing

00:25:44.740 --> 00:25:46.200
these mountain goats in front of them because

00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:49.119
people freak out. Even though they have decided

00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.140
that they have to control the population and

00:25:51.140 --> 00:25:52.839
kill a certain number of them to keep the...

00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:59.200
But so many people go out there that these things

00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:01.700
aren't scared of people. So it's created this

00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:05.039
really weird situation where if you are hunting

00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:08.839
them, You're almost hunting something that's

00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.480
domesticated. People feed them Cheetos. So much

00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:14.500
so that a friend of mine was talking about it

00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:17.759
that he was up there with his daughter. His daughter

00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:20.559
opened up a bag of Cheetos and the goat walked

00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:23.299
right to a wild goat. Lives out in the fucking

00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:26.019
woods. Walked right up to his daughter and they

00:26:26.019 --> 00:26:28.079
were laughing. She opened up the bag of Cheetos

00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.119
and put it and he stuffed his head in the bag

00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:34.160
of Cheetos. He knew what to do. And this guy

00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:36.720
who was talking about this is a hunter. And he's

00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:40.079
like, this fucking goat has, like, Cheeto dust

00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.579
all over its face. Like, it's the craziest thing.

00:26:42.619 --> 00:26:44.759
Its face is all red with Cheeto dust. And it's

00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:45.839
sitting there chewing these Cheetos. Like, it's

00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.740
done it before. Yeah, yeah. And it's just. That

00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:51.420
goat had diabetes, I think. Probably eventually,

00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:55.059
right? Yeah, I was in Costa Rica. There's another

00:26:55.059 --> 00:26:57.259
similar situation. And we were staying at this

00:26:57.259 --> 00:27:01.299
Four Seasons out there. And the monkeys. have

00:27:01.299 --> 00:27:03.319
gotten very accustomed to people being there

00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:07.160
and so um they come by and they hang out and

00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:09.759
they're like trying to get things from you and

00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:12.599
um my daughter opened up a package of oreos and

00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.279
the monkey just jumped onto this little ledge

00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.099
like a couple feet away from her and uh and my

00:27:18.099 --> 00:27:19.519
wife was like i really don't think it's a good

00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.099
idea that we feed this thing oreos and i said

00:27:22.099 --> 00:27:24.289
well You know, it's probably going to get eaten

00:27:24.289 --> 00:27:27.890
by a fucking crocodile anyway. I mean, are we

00:27:27.890 --> 00:27:29.609
poisoning it? Is that what you're thinking? I

00:27:29.609 --> 00:27:30.970
mean, it's not going to eat this every day. It's

00:27:30.970 --> 00:27:32.890
not going to be a normal part of its diet. But

00:27:32.890 --> 00:27:36.569
we hand the monkey an Oreo. It pops open the

00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:39.190
Oreo and starts chewing on the frosting like

00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:41.549
a little kid. And then we're like, oh, this little

00:27:41.549 --> 00:27:43.269
fucker probably gets these things every week.

00:27:43.529 --> 00:27:46.170
Right. So it begs the question, does he know

00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:48.509
how to do that because he's watched some human

00:27:48.509 --> 00:27:50.970
do it? Or are we innately wired to do that with

00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:55.190
Oreos? I think he knows how to do it because

00:27:55.190 --> 00:27:58.069
someone's given him Oreos so many times that

00:27:58.069 --> 00:28:00.609
he knows that's the good stuff. The good stuff's

00:28:00.609 --> 00:28:04.329
the middle. They should just sell that in a paste.

00:28:04.589 --> 00:28:07.710
I don't know. I think the middle's only good

00:28:07.710 --> 00:28:10.690
because you can contrast it. It comes back to

00:28:10.690 --> 00:28:12.450
the contrast thing. Exactly. I think you're right.

00:28:12.609 --> 00:28:13.990
I think you're really right. I think if it was

00:28:13.990 --> 00:28:15.690
just pure middle, it'd be pretty gross. Yeah,

00:28:15.750 --> 00:28:17.450
if they probably sold pure middle, nobody would

00:28:17.450 --> 00:28:19.490
buy it. But if they sold those... black cookies

00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:21.069
by themselves. No one would buy those fucking

00:28:21.069 --> 00:28:24.789
gross things either. No. Shitty ass tea biscuits.

00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:28.170
They're the worst cookies. Once you eat the white

00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:29.910
stuff, you're like, alright, I'll eat this stupid

00:28:29.910 --> 00:28:33.029
ass black cookie. It's the sunk cost. It's like

00:28:33.029 --> 00:28:35.150
a coal cookie. Here it is. Here's a little monkey

00:28:35.150 --> 00:28:37.470
doing it. Look, they grab it from you and they

00:28:37.470 --> 00:28:39.730
just fucking love it. Look at them opening it

00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:42.130
up immediately. Open it up and start chewing

00:28:42.130 --> 00:28:47.150
that white stuff. I love it. Yeah. Crazy. We

00:28:47.150 --> 00:28:51.759
had There's a thing that is called Coatamundi.

00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:55.819
Have you ever heard of those? It's related to

00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:59.460
the raccoon. It's this weird animal that lives

00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:03.059
mostly in Central and South America, and it has

00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:06.359
a northern range that extends into Arizona, all

00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.440
the way up into Mesa, I think. Like, it gets

00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.259
into the areas where it gets cold. But Arizona,

00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:14.240
I think, is the only state in the U .S. that

00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.700
has it. But it's this weird -looking... monkey

00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:21.460
raccoon thing that is so domesticated that we

00:29:21.460 --> 00:29:25.480
gave it some grapes here it is we gave it some

00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:28.599
grapes and this little fucker there it is i mean

00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:31.059
look at that weird little thing it came and uh

00:29:31.059 --> 00:29:34.380
sat we had like a little uh patio area in the

00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:37.559
hotel room and it came and sat down with us and

00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:41.319
so calm that it sat and went underneath one of

00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:43.599
the chairs and took a nap after we gave it some

00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.200
grapes Like, well, we're hanging around. My daughters

00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:48.200
are running around, making noise, and this thing's

00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:50.559
just chilling. It's like a pet. It was a total

00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:54.039
pet. It was a total pet. Yeah, there they are.

00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:57.079
They're cool, man. Weird looking things. People

00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:00.779
eat them, apparently. Apparently they hunt them

00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:06.279
in Arizona. You see nachos? Yeah. I mean, after

00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:08.559
seeing this, I was just like, I don't think I

00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:10.940
can hunt that. I'd have to be pretty hungry to

00:30:10.940 --> 00:30:14.180
eat one of those. They're so cute. Little face.

00:30:14.779 --> 00:30:17.940
Weird little animal, man. Really interesting.

00:30:18.019 --> 00:30:20.279
Yeah. Our relationship with animals is very odd

00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:23.599
when they get into close proximity. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:27.279
We've got a wicked coyote problem in San Diego,

00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:30.099
at least in the part I live in. And, you know,

00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:31.539
it's just one of those things. Once we got rid

00:30:31.539 --> 00:30:33.900
of mountain lions, because no one wants mountain

00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:37.140
lions around, the coyotes run amok. Is that what

00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:39.210
it is? I think – I mean I was talking to a friend

00:30:39.210 --> 00:30:40.509
of mine about this the other day actually and

00:30:40.509 --> 00:30:42.430
he was saying that there's probably only – like

00:30:42.430 --> 00:30:43.789
in our neighborhood, there's probably only like

00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:49.650
two mountain lions left. And the coyotes just

00:30:49.650 --> 00:30:53.109
– they've exploded. There are so many of them

00:30:53.109 --> 00:30:55.650
around. And it doesn't really bother me that

00:30:55.650 --> 00:30:57.210
much. I mean I actually kind of like listening

00:30:57.210 --> 00:31:01.170
to them howl. But if they get into your chicken

00:31:01.170 --> 00:31:04.490
coop – Yeah, I had one kill chickens just a few

00:31:04.490 --> 00:31:08.240
weeks ago. Yeah, yeah. I have a video of a dead

00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:09.940
chicken. It was such a bummer, man. We chased

00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:12.660
it away. It was on the roof of the chicken coop.

00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:16.180
The way they jump is so stunning. They're so

00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:20.079
graceful. I've never seen anything that moves

00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:23.660
like that in the wild the way a coyote does.

00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:27.339
There's a six -foot fence. It's on the ground.

00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:30.039
It jumps to the top of the six -foot fence, almost

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.839
like it's under different gravity rules than

00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.119
us, and touches the top of the fence, and then

00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:37.119
boom, it's on the top of the chicken coop. I

00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:39.839
mean, in like a second. Wow, I haven't seen that.

00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.079
It's crazy. I have video of one of them jumping

00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:45.859
my fence. I caught one of them with a chicken

00:31:45.859 --> 00:31:48.019
in his mouth jumping the fence, jumped the six

00:31:48.019 --> 00:31:49.859
-foot fence with a chicken in his mouth, just

00:31:49.859 --> 00:31:52.519
jumped, boing, touched the top of the fence with

00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.079
his front paws, back paws went over right behind

00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:58.700
it, and it was gone. It's crazy. But, you know,

00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:01.440
look, we need them. We need them to kill the

00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:04.359
rabbits and the rats. And if we didn't, we'd

00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:06.460
have a giant. Well, that's what I tell my daughter

00:32:06.460 --> 00:32:09.039
because she, like. Gets all stressed out that

00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:10.940
there's coyotes walking around our house. And

00:32:10.940 --> 00:32:12.140
I was like, well, first of all, they're pretty

00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:14.420
skittish of us. And boy, they keep those rodents

00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:16.259
under control. They really do. You need them

00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:18.880
for that. But there's a coyote problem across

00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.720
the country. They're the only animal that's in

00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.579
every single state in every single city now.

00:32:23.740 --> 00:32:27.400
Every single city. There's coyotes in Manhattan.

00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:31.400
Come on. I'm not bullshitting. In the park? They

00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:33.400
found them in the park. They found them in the

00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:36.339
Bronx. They found them in abandoned buildings.

00:32:37.219 --> 00:32:39.160
Yeah, there's a great book I read called Coyote

00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:41.779
America by a past guest of the podcast named

00:32:41.779 --> 00:32:46.160
Dan Flores. He's a wildlife historian. It's fascinating.

00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:49.799
They're a really unusual animal in that when

00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:53.980
you shoot one, they yell out. Here's this. Coyote's

00:32:53.980 --> 00:32:57.079
in New York City. Look at this. In fucking New

00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:59.619
York City, dude. In New York City. New York City

00:32:59.619 --> 00:33:01.500
Police Department. Coyote running down the street.

00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:04.299
Unbelievable. They're everywhere, man. They have

00:33:04.299 --> 00:33:07.109
a real problem with them in Chicago. I thought

00:33:07.109 --> 00:33:09.109
I could escape them when I'm in New York. No,

00:33:09.250 --> 00:33:11.089
you can't escape them anywhere. They're in all

00:33:11.089 --> 00:33:13.630
50 states now. They've completely extended their

00:33:13.630 --> 00:33:15.990
range. And the reason why they extended their

00:33:15.990 --> 00:33:19.210
range is because we went after them. We hunted

00:33:19.210 --> 00:33:21.210
them down. You know, they were able to eradicate

00:33:21.210 --> 00:33:24.250
wolves. And the way they were able to eradicate

00:33:24.250 --> 00:33:27.630
wolves is they would kill the alpha. And then

00:33:27.630 --> 00:33:30.130
they would take an animal like a horse. They

00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:32.150
would shoot it. And then they would fill it up

00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:34.509
with strychnine. And so then they would rub the

00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:38.490
alpha. the body of the alpha all over this carcass

00:33:38.490 --> 00:33:40.569
of the horse, and then the other wolves would

00:33:40.569 --> 00:33:42.730
come and smell that the alpha had been there,

00:33:42.890 --> 00:33:46.910
and then they would eat the horse and die. And

00:33:46.910 --> 00:33:48.630
so they were able to do this and essentially

00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:52.150
use this method, plus shooting them and things

00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:54.069
like that, to eradicate them from the West because

00:33:54.069 --> 00:33:57.289
of ranchers and cattle farmers. They've never

00:33:57.289 --> 00:33:59.390
been able to do that with coyotes. When you shoot

00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:02.430
a coyote, if they do roll call, like when you

00:34:02.430 --> 00:34:04.670
hear them howling, if one of them is missing,

00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.880
It sends the females, it sends some sort of a

00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:10.659
signal where their bodies produce more pups.

00:34:11.239 --> 00:34:14.280
So if one's missing, instead of having like three

00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.519
pups, you'll have six. So you make more coyotes

00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:19.380
when you kill them. And they extend their range.

00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:21.320
When you persecute them, they just extend their

00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.320
range. They're a fucking crazy animal. They are

00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.340
wicked smart, man. They've been chewing at the

00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:29.380
roof of my chicken coop trying to get in. I came

00:34:29.380 --> 00:34:32.840
outside the other night. My dog, I have a...

00:34:33.309 --> 00:34:35.309
I have three dogs, but one of them is a golden

00:34:35.309 --> 00:34:38.409
retriever, and that dog has fucking zero instincts.

00:34:38.650 --> 00:34:44.030
I mean, it is just a little human. It's a little

00:34:44.030 --> 00:34:47.070
marshmallow. Yeah, he's fun to go running with

00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:48.829
and stuff. He's a great dog, sweetheart of a

00:34:48.829 --> 00:34:51.670
dog, great pet. But he's like, what's going on

00:34:51.670 --> 00:34:53.630
over there? What's happening? There's a fucking

00:34:53.630 --> 00:34:55.289
coyote on the roof, dude. What do you mean what's

00:34:55.289 --> 00:34:57.369
going on over there? They're literally chewing

00:34:57.369 --> 00:34:59.449
the shingles off the roof when we got outside.

00:34:59.630 --> 00:35:03.789
You have one job to do. Go bark. He's not interested.

00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:06.190
Well, he's only a year old too, but he's just

00:35:06.190 --> 00:35:10.070
curious. It's very weird living in proximity

00:35:10.070 --> 00:35:13.570
with all these things because where I live, we

00:35:13.570 --> 00:35:16.710
have a lot of hawks, a lot of owls, a lot of

00:35:16.710 --> 00:35:18.989
coyotes, and occasionally a mountain lion. I

00:35:18.989 --> 00:35:21.530
saw a bobcat once, which is pretty interesting.

00:35:23.110 --> 00:35:25.090
I've never seen one of those. They're weird looking.

00:35:25.349 --> 00:35:27.570
It's a weird looking thing to see. A friend of

00:35:27.570 --> 00:35:30.929
mine, I put it up on Instagram. See if you can

00:35:30.929 --> 00:35:33.829
find it. It's fucking old. It's an old one on

00:35:33.829 --> 00:35:37.610
Instagram. A friend of mine had a coyote or a

00:35:37.610 --> 00:35:40.710
bobcat break into her chicken coop and kill every

00:35:40.710 --> 00:35:43.050
one of her chickens. And the coyote, there it

00:35:43.050 --> 00:35:45.530
is. Look at that fucking freaky bitch. How'd

00:35:45.530 --> 00:35:48.030
you find it so quick? You're an animal. He's

00:35:48.030 --> 00:35:50.590
a bobcat. He's got the best searching skills

00:35:50.590 --> 00:35:53.010
of all time. But look at that. That's in my friend's

00:35:53.010 --> 00:35:56.829
chicken coop. A bunch of murdered chickens scattered

00:35:56.829 --> 00:35:59.110
around it. Look at the look on that thing's face.

00:35:59.429 --> 00:36:03.440
Yeah. Fuck that. That look is fuck you. Yeah,

00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:06.420
that look is fuck you, lady. Yeah, I killed your

00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:10.460
chickens. Why do you have them outside? Crazy,

00:36:12.099 --> 00:36:15.639
man. So how do you know Jocko? This is how we

00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.559
got connected. Tell the folks at home. Jocko's

00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:21.519
like, prepare to get your brain blown out. I'm

00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:22.719
going to send my friend over. I was like, all

00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.420
right, let's do it. So I met Jocko through one

00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:27.199
of my really close friends, a guy named Kirk

00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.750
Parsley. who's also a Navy SEAL, a former SEAL.

00:36:31.369 --> 00:36:36.530
And Kirk said, hey, you got to meet my friend

00:36:36.530 --> 00:36:37.650
Jocko. Basically, it was just like, you guys,

00:36:37.670 --> 00:36:39.110
you just got to meet Jocko. You just have to

00:36:39.110 --> 00:36:41.610
experience Jocko. That was basically what - He's

00:36:41.610 --> 00:36:45.869
like a ride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I met Jocko.

00:36:46.050 --> 00:36:49.250
We obviously connected pretty quickly. And then

00:36:49.250 --> 00:36:53.610
I think, oh, this was before Jocko's book had

00:36:53.610 --> 00:36:57.619
come, his first, first book had come out. I said,

00:36:57.639 --> 00:36:59.599
I got to introduce you to one of my best friends,

00:36:59.619 --> 00:37:01.119
this guy, Tim Ferriss, who obviously, you know,

00:37:01.139 --> 00:37:03.880
Tim. And because Tim's always looking for, you

00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:06.860
know, a great guest on a podcast. And so I called

00:37:06.860 --> 00:37:09.219
Tim and I said, look, you got to just trust me

00:37:09.219 --> 00:37:12.300
on this one. Sight unseen. Just have Jocko come

00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:14.820
to San Francisco next week. Just I don't need

00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:17.079
to say anything else. It will be worth it. And

00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:19.940
luckily, I had enough credit in the bank with

00:37:19.940 --> 00:37:22.519
Tim. I've been successful on enough sight unseen

00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.460
recommendations. But I think the Jocko one was

00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:27.820
the best one ever because he called me while

00:37:27.820 --> 00:37:31.239
Jocko was still there. And he's like, yeah, that

00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:33.000
was pretty intense. Yeah, I sent him an email

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.500
after that podcast. I'm like, that's one of the

00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:36.300
best podcasts I've ever heard in my life. And

00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:38.920
I made a post about it. Jocko responded to the

00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:41.920
post. And then I got Jocko on. And then I and

00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:44.579
Tim convinced Jocko to do his own podcast. And

00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:47.619
now it's huge. I mean, his podcast, I get text

00:37:47.619 --> 00:37:50.539
messages all the time. From people thanking me

00:37:50.539 --> 00:37:52.599
for telling them to listen to it. And then I

00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.980
get tweets from people thanking me for talking

00:37:54.980 --> 00:37:58.159
Jocko into doing it. Because it's just, there's

00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:01.699
outliers in this world, you know, in everything.

00:38:01.940 --> 00:38:06.139
There's outliers in athletics. But when it comes

00:38:06.139 --> 00:38:09.519
to like discipline and motivation and just when

00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.840
you look at someone who's just undeniable. Like

00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.500
Jocko's one of those guys. He's just undeniable.

00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:21.059
He's a specimen. He's definitely. Off the graph.

00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:24.460
Yeah, I met him a long time ago when he was training

00:38:24.460 --> 00:38:26.940
with Dean Lister, and Dean was fighting in the

00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:29.980
UFC. I remember meeting him, and I'm like, what's

00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:33.619
that guy's deal? There's certain dudes that have

00:38:33.619 --> 00:38:35.619
got a whole lot of shit going on behind their

00:38:35.619 --> 00:38:37.980
eyes. You're like, okay, that guy's seen some

00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:42.480
stuff. Yeah, I'll tell you a funny Jocko story.

00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:44.840
I guess I can tell this story in public. It's

00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:49.059
pretty funny. So Jocko was in New York just after

00:38:49.059 --> 00:38:53.800
his book came out, and I was like, look, I want

00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:55.940
to introduce you to some of my buddies who run

00:38:55.940 --> 00:38:57.980
hedge funds here because a lot of what Jocko

00:38:57.980 --> 00:39:00.860
does is he and his partner, they consult with

00:39:00.860 --> 00:39:03.480
guys like this doing leadership stuff. And so

00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:06.639
we went up to the offices of one of my friends

00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:09.159
who has this very famous – hedge fund and his

00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:11.360
office is like on the 50th floor on park and

00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:13.059
it's looking it's like a beautiful view down

00:39:13.059 --> 00:39:15.179
park and we're just and we're just sitting there

00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:17.900
in his office just shooting the shit and i forget

00:39:17.900 --> 00:39:21.420
how it came up but somehow um we were just talking

00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:24.440
about like like how good is a sniper like what

00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:28.320
does it actually take and um and then of course

00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.780
we're we're talking very specifically about um

00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:33.480
i can't believe i'm blanking on his name um chris

00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:38.500
um bradley cooper played him in Yeah, Chris Kyle.

00:39:38.900 --> 00:39:43.420
Because Chris Kyle had been part of Jocko's team.

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:46.099
I forget which SEAL team. Maybe it was when he

00:39:46.099 --> 00:39:50.179
was SEAL team two. But in fact, I think Jocko

00:39:50.179 --> 00:39:52.039
said he goes, you know, yeah, Chris was a part

00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:54.260
of my team for more of his kills than any of

00:39:54.260 --> 00:39:58.119
his other kills. And so then we were like, what

00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:00.960
sets him apart? I mean, obviously any Navy SEAL

00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.739
sniper has got to be amazing. Chris took it to

00:40:03.739 --> 00:40:05.920
another level. What, what was it? And he, and

00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:08.300
he said, okay, let me show you what it was. So

00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:10.699
he said, so he walked us over to the window and

00:40:10.699 --> 00:40:14.139
he goes, okay, you see that guy in that hat over

00:40:14.139 --> 00:40:16.659
there, like about a mile down the, you know,

00:40:16.659 --> 00:40:17.960
you could basically see it cause it was like

00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:19.820
a pink hat or something. I said, yeah. He goes,

00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:22.039
okay, if you're a sniper, you got to be able

00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:25.599
to lay down, not move and put your eye up against

00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:29.360
this thing and like, look out at him and you

00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:32.670
can't. If you ever take your eye off that, you're

00:40:32.670 --> 00:40:34.170
going to lose the sight. So you've got to be

00:40:34.170 --> 00:40:35.929
able to stay in that position and not move and

00:40:35.929 --> 00:40:37.389
do that. He goes, and I forget what the number

00:40:37.389 --> 00:40:40.389
was, but Jaco said, the average Navy SEAL sniper

00:40:40.389 --> 00:40:43.170
can stay in that position without moving, eye

00:40:43.170 --> 00:40:46.170
glued to the sight for X number of minutes. And

00:40:46.170 --> 00:40:47.469
I forget what the number was. Maybe it was like

00:40:47.469 --> 00:40:50.769
15 minutes. He's like, Chris could do that for

00:40:50.769 --> 00:40:54.809
two hours. He could lay in that position, not

00:40:54.809 --> 00:40:58.230
moving and not taking his eye off that thing

00:40:58.230 --> 00:41:01.659
with one eye shut. for hours and he you know

00:41:01.659 --> 00:41:03.780
he's just like he just had a different he just

00:41:03.780 --> 00:41:07.420
had a different gear and um it was just an amazing

00:41:07.420 --> 00:41:09.480
i mean i mean those are some of my favorite moments

00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.820
with jocko is when he like can tell you something

00:41:11.820 --> 00:41:14.619
that is like like there are like maybe three

00:41:14.619 --> 00:41:16.500
people in the world that would understand why

00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:19.659
that matters you know sniping is fat is really

00:41:19.659 --> 00:41:22.429
fascinating right because Just sharpshooting,

00:41:22.510 --> 00:41:24.349
just being able to shoot something at a distance.

00:41:24.550 --> 00:41:29.090
And long -distance shooting is a big sport in

00:41:29.090 --> 00:41:31.909
terms of target shooting. I mean, there's guys

00:41:31.909 --> 00:41:34.130
that are out there that are shooting 1 ,500 yards

00:41:34.130 --> 00:41:37.449
and doing it competitively. That's a crazy distance.

00:41:37.449 --> 00:41:39.989
It's amazing. It's a crazy distance. But when

00:41:39.989 --> 00:41:43.050
you think about it, you've got a rifle. It's

00:41:43.050 --> 00:41:45.570
on a rest. You're sitting. You're either on a

00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:47.909
bench or you're prone or whatever it is. You're

00:41:47.909 --> 00:41:50.769
lying down most of the time. This is all it is.

00:41:51.130 --> 00:41:53.050
It's this with your finger. Pull, pull, pull,

00:41:53.190 --> 00:41:56.210
pull, pull, boom. Some people are way better

00:41:56.210 --> 00:41:59.550
at that. Just think of that. Coordinating your

00:41:59.550 --> 00:42:02.949
vision, getting the reticle set on the target,

00:42:03.130 --> 00:42:06.670
pulling that, and without movement. The outliers

00:42:06.670 --> 00:42:09.389
are the people who can do that. And you've got

00:42:09.389 --> 00:42:11.650
to think, like, when you break down physical

00:42:11.650 --> 00:42:14.230
movements, right? Like, you watch a gymnastics

00:42:14.230 --> 00:42:16.409
routine in the Olympics, like, holy shit, and

00:42:16.409 --> 00:42:18.590
it flips, and they land, and they stick, and

00:42:18.590 --> 00:42:22.630
it's incredible. But now break it down to just

00:42:22.630 --> 00:42:25.130
the movement of your trigger finger. Pull, pull,

00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:28.949
pull, pull, pull. Bang. No movement. You know,

00:42:29.030 --> 00:42:31.969
I mean, it's I'm sure you've shot guns, but it's

00:42:31.969 --> 00:42:35.329
hard to like if you shoot pistols and you have

00:42:35.329 --> 00:42:37.369
dummy rounds, you know, like a lot of people,

00:42:37.389 --> 00:42:39.489
they mix in dummy rounds so that they find out

00:42:39.489 --> 00:42:42.369
they're jerking the trigger. Yeah. And when you

00:42:42.369 --> 00:42:45.530
see like I was watching a video with Tim Kennedy

00:42:45.530 --> 00:42:48.070
and Tim Kennedy was shooting at the range and

00:42:48.070 --> 00:42:51.329
he's he's pulling. Bang, bang, bang. And it goes

00:42:51.329 --> 00:42:53.530
click, and he goes, whoo, look at that trigger

00:42:53.530 --> 00:42:57.650
control. Because the way he pulled it, it didn't

00:42:57.650 --> 00:43:01.030
go off target. It didn't move. There was no punch

00:43:01.030 --> 00:43:04.409
to it. But you've got to fucking practice forever

00:43:04.409 --> 00:43:08.050
just to be able to do that, just to not anticipate

00:43:08.050 --> 00:43:11.449
the recoil of the gun and yank and move and twitch

00:43:11.449 --> 00:43:14.190
and just controlling the mind. I mean, it's a

00:43:14.190 --> 00:43:17.219
fascinating thing to me that just. Just pulling

00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:19.400
this one finger, you would think fucking anybody

00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:20.860
could do that. I could show you how to do that.

00:43:21.380 --> 00:43:24.739
Like I've had friends that say they want to go

00:43:24.739 --> 00:43:27.480
hunting. I want to go hunting. What do I do?

00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:30.869
Where do I get a bow? I'm like, slow down. Let's

00:43:30.869 --> 00:43:33.190
get you a rifle, because I could teach you how

00:43:33.190 --> 00:43:35.610
to shoot a rifle. We could get someone, we could

00:43:35.610 --> 00:43:37.650
sight in your rifle, go to the range, we'll sight

00:43:37.650 --> 00:43:41.250
it in 100 yards, get you a good, accurate rifle,

00:43:41.429 --> 00:43:43.469
and then all you have to do is kind of keep it

00:43:43.469 --> 00:43:46.750
together. A rifle, we get into 100 yards of a

00:43:46.750 --> 00:43:48.730
wild pig, you're going to be able to kill this

00:43:48.730 --> 00:43:52.030
thing, 100%. You got years before you're going

00:43:52.030 --> 00:43:53.530
to be able to shoot that thing with a bow. I

00:43:53.530 --> 00:43:56.730
mean, fucking years. But it is, and the bow is

00:43:56.730 --> 00:43:59.750
like... My wife said this to me a while ago.

00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:03.510
She said, of all the things you do, she's like,

00:44:03.610 --> 00:44:06.489
archery seems to be the only one where even if

00:44:06.489 --> 00:44:08.170
you don't have a good day, you're still happy.

00:44:08.829 --> 00:44:12.110
If I'm on the racetrack and I'm driving a race

00:44:12.110 --> 00:44:15.130
car or if I'm swimming or whatever and I just

00:44:15.130 --> 00:44:17.750
have a bad day, I'm just not firing on all cylinders,

00:44:17.849 --> 00:44:20.929
it just kind of pisses me off. There's something

00:44:20.929 --> 00:44:22.710
about archery where even if I'm not having a

00:44:22.710 --> 00:44:26.360
good day, maybe it's an extension of what you're

00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:27.960
talking about with the trigger finger. So for

00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:31.500
me, I got into archery because of Tim and the

00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:33.800
story that the thing that he told me, which obviously

00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:35.860
for anyone who, yeah, the thing that he told

00:44:35.860 --> 00:44:38.019
me that immediately made me be like, I want to

00:44:38.019 --> 00:44:41.179
do this was just anything that requires that

00:44:41.179 --> 00:44:42.980
much perfection just seems great. And he was

00:44:42.980 --> 00:44:44.820
like, yeah, you don't take a shot unless you

00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:47.320
can kill the animal. Like, you know, and so like

00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:49.260
you might take one shot in two days. Like it's,

00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:50.699
it's gotta be a kill shot and the kill shots

00:44:50.699 --> 00:44:52.179
gotta look like X, Y, and Z. And I was like,

00:44:52.219 --> 00:44:56.780
Oh. That's like you got to be dialed in. So it

00:44:56.780 --> 00:44:59.099
was this idea of back tension. You know, it was

00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:01.159
sort of like, wow, if you're taking a perfect

00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:04.139
shot, like it's all in the rhomboids, you know,

00:45:04.179 --> 00:45:06.599
it's all back here. And you've got to be able

00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:08.199
to do, as you said, you've got to completely

00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:12.079
be able to eliminate any anticipation, any of

00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:16.519
this business. And so I think that. I think of

00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:18.619
archery for me as almost like a meditation. Like

00:45:18.619 --> 00:45:20.760
I'm talking in the way like Sam Harris would

00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:23.199
talk about sort of consciousness and the way

00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:27.059
you are so hyper aware of what you're doing that,

00:45:27.139 --> 00:45:30.079
yes, you can daydream and your mind can wander.

00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:32.659
But if you actually start to imagine the sensations

00:45:32.659 --> 00:45:35.420
of every part of archery, in many ways it feels

00:45:35.420 --> 00:45:37.699
like meditating. So I think that's why I'm just

00:45:37.699 --> 00:45:40.739
like, you know, and I never really thought about

00:45:40.739 --> 00:45:42.860
it with shooting a rifle because I don't have

00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:46.230
much experience with guns. I'm guessing it's

00:45:46.230 --> 00:45:49.849
very similar, but as you said, the difference

00:45:49.849 --> 00:45:52.250
between the good and the great in that is less

00:45:52.250 --> 00:45:56.929
obvious at a distance. Yeah, I think offhand,

00:45:57.030 --> 00:46:01.690
shooting a rifle and shooting a bow, I bet I'm

00:46:01.690 --> 00:46:06.789
just as accurate at 60 yards as the average person

00:46:06.789 --> 00:46:09.670
is. Not a sniper, but the average person with

00:46:09.670 --> 00:46:11.630
a rifle. You can be pretty fucking accurate.

00:46:11.909 --> 00:46:15.760
You can't off a bench. So there's some similarities.

00:46:16.139 --> 00:46:19.920
There's a similarity to having the, you have

00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:21.800
to have perfect technique, you have to have the

00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.500
right stance, you have to make sure that everything's

00:46:24.500 --> 00:46:28.480
locked in and your structure is correct. But

00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:30.420
I agree with you that I think it's some sort

00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:32.320
of a meditation. I also think there's something

00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:38.179
to hitting a target that is in our DNA that's

00:46:38.179 --> 00:46:41.139
connected to hunting. That's connected to survival.

00:46:41.260 --> 00:46:44.539
That's connected to the thousands of years that

00:46:44.539 --> 00:46:48.260
people threw arrows and fucking – what is that

00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:50.900
thing called? What's that thing called that they

00:46:50.900 --> 00:46:53.179
– Adel Adel thing. Yeah. Is that how you say

00:46:53.179 --> 00:46:55.440
it? Adel Adel, right? Yeah. You know what I'm

00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.679
talking about? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's like

00:46:56.679 --> 00:46:59.960
an advanced spear throwing thing and then archery

00:46:59.960 --> 00:47:04.199
and just – I think when a person would hit a

00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.559
deer, they knew their tribe was going to eat.

00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:09.050
Right. And so there's this like charge. And you

00:47:09.050 --> 00:47:12.010
get a small amount of that juice when you hit

00:47:12.010 --> 00:47:15.570
a target. Yeah, no, I'm sure there's got to be

00:47:15.570 --> 00:47:18.050
dopamine that's being secreted when you do that.

00:47:18.130 --> 00:47:19.730
It's the greatest feeling in the world. Yeah,

00:47:19.750 --> 00:47:22.289
it shouldn't make sense. Like when you're looking

00:47:22.289 --> 00:47:23.690
at someone doing it, you're like, what do you

00:47:23.690 --> 00:47:25.750
give a fuck if that arrow goes in there? It doesn't

00:47:25.750 --> 00:47:27.829
make any sense. Like why does it make sense?

00:47:29.389 --> 00:47:32.070
Fucking sat like Jamie laughs at me because I'll

00:47:32.070 --> 00:47:34.449
hit the bullseye from 45 yards, and I'm like

00:47:34.449 --> 00:47:38.389
yes It's like get this little woo You get a little

00:47:38.389 --> 00:47:40.550
little burst man. I just like the whole experience

00:47:40.550 --> 00:47:43.210
even the sound so sometimes like when my veins

00:47:43.210 --> 00:47:45.329
get holes in them like sometimes you put a broadhead

00:47:45.329 --> 00:47:47.230
through or you put like a field tip through another

00:47:47.230 --> 00:47:50.179
one and Now, obviously, sometimes if you trash

00:47:50.179 --> 00:47:52.239
the vein, the arrow doesn't work. But like usually

00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:54.920
just a single hole in a vein will produce a sound

00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:57.139
that is the greatest sound you've ever heard

00:47:57.139 --> 00:47:59.880
when that arrow leaves. The whistle? Yeah. Oh,

00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:03.280
I love it. That's a problem with certain broadheads.

00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:06.360
Certain vented broadheads, they whistle. They

00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:07.880
whistle too much. They give the animal the heads

00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:12.079
up. Yeah. So that whole experience of like the

00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:15.099
perfect release. Even when you surprise yourself,

00:48:15.300 --> 00:48:17.099
like I switched over to this Carter Evolution

00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:20.579
release. Sure. Back tension release. It's the

00:48:20.579 --> 00:48:22.440
most pure back tension. It's better than the

00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.320
honey. Because the honey, you could still cheat

00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:26.460
a little bit. If you were getting lazy, you could

00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:28.760
twist. You could twist, yeah. Exactly. But the

00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:31.480
Evolution, there is no cheating. Right, you can't.

00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:34.880
It's like, so you can surprise yourself with

00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:38.219
a shot. Yeah, so there's no anticipation. You

00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:40.440
can't explain this to people who don't do it.

00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:42.320
Have you noticed that? No, you can't. They're

00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:44.539
like, what are you rambling about boring the

00:48:44.539 --> 00:48:47.099
shit out of me? I have tried to explain this

00:48:47.099 --> 00:48:49.320
to people who don't know what I'm talking about.

00:48:49.340 --> 00:48:52.000
I was trying to explain it to Alexander Gustafson,

00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:53.860
who was in here the other day, and he's a hunter,

00:48:53.900 --> 00:48:56.800
too. But he only hunts in Sweden. You can't bow

00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:00.139
hunt. It's not legal. He wanted to learn how

00:49:00.139 --> 00:49:01.980
to shoot a bow, and so I was explaining that

00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:04.460
I put my finger on this trigger. My finger sits

00:49:04.460 --> 00:49:06.679
on the trigger. I use a card or two. I use First

00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.340
Choice. That's the name of the race. I go, my

00:49:09.340 --> 00:49:11.579
thumb is on the trigger, but I never squeeze

00:49:11.579 --> 00:49:14.239
it. The squeezing is all done with my back. As

00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:17.340
I pull, then it just goes off. And you can see

00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:20.420
his head is like, why? But you can just do that,

00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:23.179
right? Why don't you just do that? And you don't.

00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:28.039
It's so counterintuitive, but once I got into

00:49:28.039 --> 00:49:30.139
it, Tim actually sent me this book on back tension,

00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:33.019
and then I just devoured it. I mean, it was sort

00:49:33.019 --> 00:49:35.579
of like reading the Penny Dean book. Is Tim doing

00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:39.039
this a lot now? Not as much as he should be.

00:49:40.019 --> 00:49:42.940
Is he trying to hunt with it? Yeah, Tim will

00:49:42.940 --> 00:49:46.800
hunt. Has he done it so far? I know he's hunting,

00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:50.159
but only with rifles. No, no, no. He's been on

00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:51.539
bow hunting trips. That's, in fact, what got

00:49:51.539 --> 00:49:53.860
me into it. Because about two years ago, he was

00:49:53.860 --> 00:49:55.639
getting ready to go to a trip, do a five -day

00:49:55.639 --> 00:49:57.500
trip in Colorado. And he called me and said,

00:49:57.659 --> 00:50:00.960
hey, I want to talk with you about some training

00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:03.239
and some nutrition to get ready for this. Because

00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:05.420
it's going to be kind of an extreme whole deal.

00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:07.179
You're at altitude. You're running around like

00:50:07.179 --> 00:50:10.420
crazy. You've got to be able to sprint and then

00:50:10.420 --> 00:50:13.500
be totally relaxed. So he's like, can you help

00:50:13.500 --> 00:50:15.030
me think about it? how to train and what the

00:50:15.030 --> 00:50:16.809
nutrition would be. And, and I said, okay, tell

00:50:16.809 --> 00:50:19.170
me more about what the demands are. And the more

00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:21.289
he told me, the more I was like, why am I not

00:50:21.289 --> 00:50:23.329
doing this? This sounds really freaking awesome.

00:50:24.070 --> 00:50:27.329
So that's, so, uh, and he's got an awesome video

00:50:27.329 --> 00:50:31.550
of, of, uh, of this. Uh, he took, I mean, probably

00:50:31.550 --> 00:50:33.789
he only took one shot in like the whole five

00:50:33.789 --> 00:50:35.969
day trip and it was a perfect kill. What did

00:50:35.969 --> 00:50:39.789
he kill? It was a huge bird and I can't even

00:50:39.789 --> 00:50:41.840
remember what it was. Yeah. Yeah, it was like

00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:43.980
a bird on the ground, like some huge ass bird.

00:50:44.099 --> 00:50:45.619
But it wasn't a turkey. It was like, I don't

00:50:45.619 --> 00:50:48.539
remember what it was. But the shot, he was like,

00:50:48.619 --> 00:50:49.880
you know, it was one of those things where it

00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:53.300
was like, because it, you know, like all my practice

00:50:53.300 --> 00:50:55.460
is on stationary targets, right? So it's a totally

00:50:55.460 --> 00:50:57.960
new dimension when it's like the thing's doing

00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:01.420
this. Oh, so it was flying? It was like kind

00:51:01.420 --> 00:51:03.960
of like either running on the ground or about

00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:06.059
to fly or something. But he hit it in motion.

00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:08.239
I mean, it was a great shot. That's crazy. Yeah,

00:51:08.300 --> 00:51:09.699
yeah, yeah. I wonder what the fuck that would

00:51:09.699 --> 00:51:11.179
be. I don't know what it was. I'll have to ask

00:51:11.179 --> 00:51:14.099
him. A big bird in North America. Did he shoot

00:51:14.099 --> 00:51:17.440
a fucking eagle? Did he shoot pelicans? It definitely

00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:18.860
wasn't an eagle. What the hell is he doing, man?

00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:23.760
Yeah, I was reading something about the goose

00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:28.099
problem. About how the goose population has exploded

00:51:28.099 --> 00:51:32.219
because of farmlands. And that they literally

00:51:32.219 --> 00:51:36.719
don't know what to do with the certain population

00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.099
of different kinds of... geese that are flying

00:51:39.099 --> 00:51:41.380
into this country from Canada. It's funny you

00:51:41.380 --> 00:51:44.539
say this. I was in Toronto three weeks ago, which

00:51:44.539 --> 00:51:47.199
is where I'm from. And though I don't go often

00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:49.559
and we were, I was with my brother and we were

00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:52.940
up taking the kids to some place. And sure enough,

00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:55.219
like we're walking from like one area to the

00:51:55.219 --> 00:51:58.000
other and these geese come up and they kind of

00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:01.739
start posturing. And I'm thinking, what the fuck?

00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.300
And my brother's like, get moving. Like clearly

00:52:05.300 --> 00:52:07.590
one of us is near one of their eggs. And I was

00:52:07.590 --> 00:52:09.329
like, what? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:09.329 --> 00:52:11.389
He goes, these are the most aggressive creatures.

00:52:11.909 --> 00:52:14.110
And they're big. Yeah, they're pretty big. So

00:52:14.110 --> 00:52:16.530
I was like, fair enough. Let's just keep walking.

00:52:17.070 --> 00:52:19.070
Don't make eye contact. They're big, but you

00:52:19.070 --> 00:52:22.969
can cook them. So fuck them. Get out of here.

00:52:23.929 --> 00:52:27.630
Goddamn geese. Yeah, there's a... There's a certain

00:52:27.630 --> 00:52:30.130
type of geese that they call ribeye in the sky

00:52:30.130 --> 00:52:35.050
because they have a delicious red meat to them.

00:52:35.130 --> 00:52:40.050
What is that called? God damn it. But they're

00:52:40.050 --> 00:52:43.610
very plentiful in Texas. Yeah, they hunt them

00:52:43.610 --> 00:52:46.789
in Texas. What's the meat like? Is it marbled?

00:52:47.130 --> 00:52:49.610
It looks like a ribeye. It's crazy. Sandhill

00:52:49.610 --> 00:52:51.510
crane. Thank you. Sandhill crane. That's what

00:52:51.510 --> 00:52:54.010
it is. Is there anything you don't know? He's

00:52:54.010 --> 00:52:57.420
a fucking wizard with the Google, man. With Google,

00:52:57.559 --> 00:53:00.179
everyone is a wizard, but Jamie's an extra wizard.

00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:02.840
He's really good at it. He's a ninja. Yeah, but

00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:05.039
that is what they call them. So it's actually

00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:08.079
a common phrase because I've had friends that

00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:10.199
say it might be the most delicious meat in the

00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:15.610
world. I mean, it tastes like a Wagyu ribeye,

00:53:15.630 --> 00:53:18.909
and it's flying around. And you could shoot like

00:53:18.909 --> 00:53:23.349
fucking 10 a day. It's crazy. I have friends

00:53:23.349 --> 00:53:26.010
that hunt these things. And they're mostly in

00:53:26.010 --> 00:53:28.590
Texas? I don't know where they are, but my friends

00:53:28.590 --> 00:53:30.469
who have hunted them hunted them in Texas. I

00:53:30.469 --> 00:53:32.530
mean, I'm sure they fly all across the country.

00:53:33.230 --> 00:53:35.690
But, yeah, it's a crane. It's not a goose. Yeah,

00:53:35.750 --> 00:53:39.789
I've only been bird hunting twice. I went once.

00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:43.699
with Anthony Bourdain, uh, for his TV show. We

00:53:43.699 --> 00:53:46.260
hunted pheasants and, uh, he shot one and then

00:53:46.260 --> 00:53:48.500
we cooked it and ate it. That was fun. I shot

00:53:48.500 --> 00:53:50.460
at one and missed. And then I shot a turkey once,

00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:53.820
which is pretty interesting. Wild turkeys. Very

00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:57.960
good. Very delicious. But, um, you know, it's,

00:53:58.019 --> 00:54:02.320
um, when I, I like mammals, I like eating mammals.

00:54:02.619 --> 00:54:06.659
I prefer, I prefer red meat. I think it's just

00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:08.420
better for you. I think it's more nutritious.

00:54:08.539 --> 00:54:11.820
It's more exhilarating. There's something about

00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:15.699
the meat itself. It just tastes better. I haven't

00:54:15.699 --> 00:54:18.980
met too many foods I don't like. Really? Well,

00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:21.699
with the kind of exercise that you do, I'm sure

00:54:21.699 --> 00:54:25.300
you almost have a voracious appetite. I mean

00:54:25.300 --> 00:54:27.320
I do, but nothing like what I used to. I mean

00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:30.440
I fast pretty much every day. Are you doing 16

00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:33.199
hours? What are you doing? It depends. So when

00:54:33.199 --> 00:54:35.219
I'm in – I split my time between New York and

00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:37.360
California. When I'm in New York, it's absolutely

00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:39.860
one meal a day, no ifs, ands, or buts because

00:54:39.860 --> 00:54:42.139
it's just the schedule is such that I'm seeing

00:54:42.139 --> 00:54:44.019
patients in the morning and afternoon and I don't

00:54:44.019 --> 00:54:45.860
want to do – I don't want to waste time to eat.

00:54:45.980 --> 00:54:49.500
What are you doctoring? That's a good question.

00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.769
I mean – I trained as a surgeon and did cancer

00:54:52.769 --> 00:54:56.070
surgery, but my practice is based on longevity.

00:54:56.389 --> 00:55:00.469
So it's sort of how do you apply nutrition, exercise,

00:55:00.670 --> 00:55:04.849
sleep, stress management, endocrinology, lipidology,

00:55:05.090 --> 00:55:07.110
supplements, hormones, all that stuff. Like how

00:55:07.110 --> 00:55:09.889
do you engineer how to make somebody live longer

00:55:09.889 --> 00:55:13.900
is my. clinical interest um so yeah so in new

00:55:13.900 --> 00:55:15.639
york i eat one meal a day so it's basically like

00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:17.760
a 22 hour fasting window and then i'm feeding

00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:21.400
within a two hour window wow when i'm here um

00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:23.960
it's about this well i mean yesterday and today

00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:25.719
it's the same like you know today has just been

00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:28.300
kind of a busy day you know i won't eat till

00:55:28.300 --> 00:55:31.519
dinner tonight but um my short fast would be

00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:34.019
16 hours where i would eat that's a short fast

00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:35.380
that would be a short fast that's a long one

00:55:35.380 --> 00:55:38.920
for me really Dude, you got to get in touch with

00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:40.920
your evolutionary self. I had this discussion

00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:43.000
with a friend this morning because he was saying

00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.179
to me he can't do 16 hours. Well, he's a pussy.

00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:48.019
That's why I said he's a pussy. You just told

00:55:48.019 --> 00:55:51.300
him. No, but I said you got to understand if

00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:53.519
our ancestors couldn't function when they were

00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:56.199
hungry, we wouldn't be here. So it's not just

00:55:56.199 --> 00:55:59.579
that starvation – a short -term adaptation to

00:55:59.579 --> 00:56:02.260
starvation is necessary. It's probably beneficial.

00:56:02.940 --> 00:56:05.679
In other words, during these short periods of

00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:08.900
– deprivation of food. You know, we get just

00:56:08.900 --> 00:56:11.019
a little bit more epinephrine and norepinephrine.

00:56:11.059 --> 00:56:12.559
We just get a little bit sharper, a little bit

00:56:12.559 --> 00:56:17.119
better. Um, I, I can't even, I can't even remember

00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:18.400
what it's like to eat three meals a day. It's

00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:20.280
been so long. Really? Yeah. How long have you

00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:23.559
been doing this? I mean, I've been doing crazy

00:56:23.559 --> 00:56:26.719
shit for 10 years, nutritional wise. Like I spent

00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:29.679
three years in ketosis where it was actually

00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:32.920
one day I was in ketosis for three years. Um,

00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:36.199
Lots of fasting. But I think intermittent fasting

00:56:36.199 --> 00:56:38.039
or time -restricted feeding, probably at least

00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:42.539
five years. And for people listening, what are

00:56:42.539 --> 00:56:45.599
the benefits of that? Well, I mean, if we're

00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:47.119
going to get really technical, we have to be

00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:48.739
clear that I think a lot of the benefits are

00:56:48.739 --> 00:56:50.820
overstated. And a lot of the benefits are things

00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:53.019
that we've only studied in animals. So there's

00:56:53.019 --> 00:56:55.119
a guy named Sachin Panda at the Salk Institute

00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:57.739
in San Diego who's, I think, one of the world's

00:56:57.739 --> 00:57:02.369
experts on time -restricted feeding. For example,

00:57:02.449 --> 00:57:05.570
a 16 -hour fast in a mouse produces unbelievable

00:57:05.570 --> 00:57:08.070
results. If you take a group of certain types

00:57:08.070 --> 00:57:10.570
of mice or strains of rats or other rodents and

00:57:10.570 --> 00:57:12.949
you, in a 24 -hour period, deprive them of any

00:57:12.949 --> 00:57:15.489
nutrient for 16 hours, but then for eight hours

00:57:15.489 --> 00:57:18.030
let them eat whatever the hell they want, they

00:57:18.030 --> 00:57:22.769
can't gain weight. And the reason we think is

00:57:22.769 --> 00:57:25.780
that— Once you give a long enough period of time

00:57:25.780 --> 00:57:29.519
when the animal can ramp up its – like the enzymes

00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:31.380
in the liver that are responsible for fat oxidation,

00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:34.559
I mean they just basically become fat burn –

00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:36.440
I hate that term fat burning machine. It's so

00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:38.960
overused. But they basically just become unbelievably

00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:43.019
efficient at metabolizing fat. So we have to

00:57:43.019 --> 00:57:44.820
be careful though when we extrapolate that because

00:57:44.820 --> 00:57:47.760
you and I have a very different metabolism than

00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.619
a mouse. Like a 16 -hour fast to a mouse is –

00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.639
much longer than it is to us. So I don't know

00:57:53.639 --> 00:57:56.980
if those benefits would extend. Also, it's not

00:57:56.980 --> 00:57:58.699
entirely clear that time -restricted feeding

00:57:58.699 --> 00:58:01.000
will produce the longevity benefit that we see

00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.699
in other sort of fasting or fasting -mimicking

00:58:03.699 --> 00:58:07.699
types of diets. So for me, what it comes down

00:58:07.699 --> 00:58:10.789
to is, I mean... Honestly, it's just an easier

00:58:10.789 --> 00:58:12.789
way. It gives me a much more liberty with what

00:58:12.789 --> 00:58:14.510
I eat during my feeding window. I don't have

00:58:14.510 --> 00:58:16.969
to be nearly as restrictive when I'm feeding

00:58:16.969 --> 00:58:20.389
if I have that period off, just in terms of like

00:58:20.389 --> 00:58:22.809
my physiologic response. Secondly, there's a

00:58:22.809 --> 00:58:24.889
convenience thing. Like I kind of hate being

00:58:24.889 --> 00:58:29.210
tethered to eat. I like knowing that, hey, if

00:58:29.210 --> 00:58:30.989
I get into a pinch, like I don't have to eat

00:58:30.989 --> 00:58:33.369
right now. If I'm sitting on the airplane and

00:58:33.369 --> 00:58:35.650
they're serving dog shit, I don't have to eat.

00:58:35.909 --> 00:58:40.449
I can wait another five hours until I eat. Um,

00:58:40.449 --> 00:58:43.929
I also just feel much more steady in my energy

00:58:43.929 --> 00:58:47.650
levels. I, I kind of vaguely remember like 10

00:58:47.650 --> 00:58:49.610
years ago when I was kind of like eating a normal

00:58:49.610 --> 00:58:54.269
diet, how I always had this lull in energy after

00:58:54.269 --> 00:58:57.489
lunch. Like there was the post lunch pre dinner.

00:58:58.110 --> 00:59:00.809
I just don't feel good. Like, not that I feel

00:59:00.809 --> 00:59:03.989
bad, but like, I'm not sharp. I'm not in my a

00:59:03.989 --> 00:59:05.869
game. And I don't even remember what that feels

00:59:05.869 --> 00:59:08.030
like anymore, which is not to say. feel great

00:59:08.030 --> 00:59:10.309
all the time but i definitely don't have that

00:59:10.309 --> 00:59:13.230
vacillating energy level yeah i've said that

00:59:13.230 --> 00:59:15.710
to people when i eliminated most carbs from my

00:59:15.710 --> 00:59:17.909
diet you know and i have a friend of mine who

00:59:18.329 --> 00:59:19.969
He talked to his trainer about that. His trainer

00:59:19.969 --> 00:59:22.010
was like, you're crazy. Eat bread. Eat pasta.

00:59:22.130 --> 00:59:23.849
Don't listen to him. I'm like, no, don't listen

00:59:23.849 --> 00:59:26.829
to him. Just Google it. That stuff's fucking

00:59:26.829 --> 00:59:28.550
terrible for you. If you want to eat carbohydrates,

00:59:28.989 --> 00:59:32.010
get it from fruits. Get it from some natural

00:59:32.010 --> 00:59:34.710
sources. If you have a trainer that's telling

00:59:34.710 --> 00:59:36.630
you to eat bread, get a new fucking trainer.

00:59:37.170 --> 00:59:40.869
It's nothing wrong with eating it if you want

00:59:40.869 --> 00:59:43.610
to occasionally and in small doses. But when

00:59:43.610 --> 00:59:45.590
I eliminated most of that stuff from my diet,

00:59:45.670 --> 00:59:50.239
I felt the exact same thing. that midday nap

00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:53.619
desire go away. And then just the fogginess about,

00:59:53.739 --> 00:59:55.320
like at the end of the day, you're like, oh God,

00:59:55.420 --> 00:59:57.659
I'm fucking tired. And then I'd have to drink

00:59:57.659 --> 00:59:59.579
a cup of coffee to get ramped back up again.

00:59:59.699 --> 01:00:02.400
And it's just like never ending cycle of having

01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:06.039
this insulin spike and then this crash. And that

01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:10.099
is. That's from carbohydrates. It's from refined

01:00:10.099 --> 01:00:12.920
carbohydrates and having too much fucking sugar

01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:14.719
in your body. And everybody does it. It's like,

01:00:14.780 --> 01:00:17.320
look around. So this will be funny for you. So

01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:20.659
Google my name and just put like Peter Atiyah

01:00:20.659 --> 01:00:23.920
Fat. And you're going to see a picture of me

01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:25.599
when I was a swimmer. Because all this time we

01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:27.860
were talking about me swimming, you're assuming

01:00:27.860 --> 01:00:30.800
like I'm a fit dude. I was a fit but fat dude.

01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:34.179
Fit but fat. Fit but totally fat. What were you

01:00:34.179 --> 01:00:36.829
eating? Oh, nonstop carbs. Look, there I am.

01:00:36.849 --> 01:00:38.809
See on the left there. Well, I wouldn't say you're

01:00:38.809 --> 01:00:42.130
fat. I would say you got a little paunch on you.

01:00:42.329 --> 01:00:44.050
I don't know. Wait, wait. There's another picture

01:00:44.050 --> 01:00:47.909
after I swam across Lake Tahoe. Go to that one

01:00:47.909 --> 01:00:51.190
right there. Yeah. Got a little gut there, fella.

01:00:51.510 --> 01:00:52.989
Yeah, I don't know. It's like you're boozing

01:00:52.989 --> 01:00:54.929
it up. Yeah. But it's also the way you're sitting

01:00:54.929 --> 01:00:57.610
down. If you stood up and sucked it in for a

01:00:57.610 --> 01:00:59.949
picture on Instagram, it might look okay. I don't

01:00:59.949 --> 01:01:03.210
know. I was definitely, you know, probably what?

01:01:03.500 --> 01:01:06.539
Maybe 30 pounds heavier. But, you know, body

01:01:06.539 --> 01:01:08.440
fat was much greater. And what were you eating?

01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:10.860
Oh, I mean, I probably went through three or

01:01:10.860 --> 01:01:13.099
four bottles of Powerade a day because, you know,

01:01:13.139 --> 01:01:15.780
you're training all day. And, you know, every

01:01:15.780 --> 01:01:19.400
post -workout was a carb refeed. And so you're

01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:22.059
in sort of this vicious glycogen -dependent state.

01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:26.940
Yeah. It's crazy that there's so many folks out

01:01:26.940 --> 01:01:29.079
there that are living their life that don't even

01:01:29.079 --> 01:01:30.960
understand that this is a process they're going

01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:34.139
through. They just think this is eating and exercise.

01:01:34.500 --> 01:01:38.199
This is what happens. But it's not. Your body,

01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:42.719
if you shut up, cut that off, push it away, enter

01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:45.960
into a completely different food source. Just

01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:50.199
change the way you eat. your body will change.

01:01:50.440 --> 01:01:53.920
And just that concept, people, that sounds like

01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:55.860
horseshit. It sounds like, what are you saying?

01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:59.900
Are you offering some miracle cure? No, I'm saying

01:01:59.900 --> 01:02:03.360
you will change the dimension of life that you

01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:05.699
operate in. It will change because you won't

01:02:05.699 --> 01:02:09.440
be the same person. Who you are is dependent

01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:11.179
upon a lot of things, but one of them is how

01:02:11.179 --> 01:02:13.800
much energy you have, how you feel, whether you're

01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:16.559
crashing. If you change the way you eat, you

01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:19.159
change the energy you have. You change the way

01:02:19.159 --> 01:02:21.500
you feel. It will change your behavior. It will

01:02:21.500 --> 01:02:23.760
change your choices. It will change your ambitions.

01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:26.420
It will change your potential. I mean there's

01:02:26.420 --> 01:02:29.179
so many things that will change. But there's

01:02:29.179 --> 01:02:33.480
an interesting question which I spend some time

01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:35.300
thinking about and I've sort of accepted the

01:02:35.300 --> 01:02:36.800
fact that we might not know the answer, which

01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:40.000
is when I was growing up, I was exercising like

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:42.639
crazy. Not as much as I was when I was swimming.

01:02:43.309 --> 01:02:45.110
I mean, sorry, more than I was when I was swimming.

01:02:45.769 --> 01:02:49.329
But I ate like I had the world's worst diet growing

01:02:49.329 --> 01:02:53.849
up. So I would eat breakfast was a bowl of like

01:02:53.849 --> 01:02:55.909
a box of cereal. So I'd take like one of these

01:02:55.909 --> 01:02:57.730
Tupperware bowls that was this big and fill it

01:02:57.730 --> 01:02:59.349
with a full box. So each day I would have just

01:02:59.349 --> 01:03:01.250
a box of Cocoa Puffs or whatever I would start

01:03:01.250 --> 01:03:05.510
the day with. And then lunch was. a full loaf

01:03:05.510 --> 01:03:07.989
of bread, which would seven sandwiches, plus

01:03:07.989 --> 01:03:10.849
a plate of fries, plus a big tub of like, like

01:03:10.849 --> 01:03:13.610
a two liter jug of orange juice. But I was training

01:03:13.610 --> 01:03:16.230
six hours a day, right? So I would, you know,

01:03:16.230 --> 01:03:19.309
run 10 miles in the morning, in the gym, you

01:03:19.309 --> 01:03:21.190
know, boxing, like it was, you know, you know

01:03:21.190 --> 01:03:22.949
what that shit's like. I mean, it's ridiculously

01:03:22.949 --> 01:03:26.590
energy expending. But the point is, I had a hard

01:03:26.590 --> 01:03:28.869
time holding my weight. And I was a middleweight,

01:03:29.030 --> 01:03:33.269
160, walked around at 158. Who walks around below

01:03:33.269 --> 01:03:36.980
their fight weight? So, you know, my waist was

01:03:36.980 --> 01:03:39.159
28 inches. I was probably four and a half percent

01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:42.800
body fat and I was eating anything and everything

01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:45.179
you could put in front of me. And then something

01:03:45.179 --> 01:03:47.400
happened in medical school where that shit just

01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:50.940
stopped. And I wasn't even eating as badly at

01:03:50.940 --> 01:03:53.840
the time, but all of a sudden the metabolic adaptation

01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:59.239
just vanished. And, you know, I mean. I wish

01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:01.940
someone could study this, meaning you would have

01:04:01.940 --> 01:04:03.980
to take a group of individuals and do muscle

01:04:03.980 --> 01:04:07.260
and fat biopsies over the course of their life

01:04:07.260 --> 01:04:09.639
or at least during this window when we think

01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:12.219
this is happening. And I think for many of my

01:04:12.219 --> 01:04:14.460
patients or just even friends, like it seems

01:04:14.460 --> 01:04:16.539
that this happens kind of in your 30s if you're

01:04:16.539 --> 01:04:20.519
a guy. For women, it's harder for me to tell

01:04:20.519 --> 01:04:22.519
because I think pregnancy can interfere with

01:04:22.519 --> 01:04:25.719
this. So sometimes we get a bit of a skewed answer.

01:04:26.730 --> 01:04:29.929
If I had to hypothesize, I think that we go from

01:04:29.929 --> 01:04:33.349
having a lot of lipoprotein lipase on muscle

01:04:33.349 --> 01:04:35.909
cells and not much on fat cells to the reverse.

01:04:36.190 --> 01:04:41.130
So when I was 16 and invincible, my muscles had

01:04:41.130 --> 01:04:44.889
a lot of this enzyme LPL on it that could just

01:04:44.889 --> 01:04:48.210
absolutely take whatever I was throwing at them

01:04:48.210 --> 01:04:51.730
and churn it into energy for the muscle. Whereas

01:04:51.730 --> 01:04:54.190
when that LPL exists on a fat cell, you're basically

01:04:54.190 --> 01:04:56.920
just going to store more fat. And now why that

01:04:56.920 --> 01:04:59.199
would happen over time, I mean, we could guess

01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:02.019
reasons, but I'd love to know if that's the case.

01:05:02.300 --> 01:05:04.579
Because I still can't really figure out, like,

01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:07.639
why is it today I am so carbohydrate sensitive

01:05:07.639 --> 01:05:11.659
when there was a day when I could eat, you know,

01:05:11.659 --> 01:05:13.400
I was probably eating 7 ,000 or 8 ,000 calories

01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:16.199
a day, of which 80 % were probably carbohydrates

01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:19.760
when I was growing up and was lean and mean.

01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:22.579
Did you experience a crash at all, like post

01:05:22.579 --> 01:05:25.110
-afternoon crash, post -lunch crash? That's a

01:05:25.110 --> 01:05:28.150
good question. Back then, I don't think I did

01:05:28.150 --> 01:05:31.349
that much back in the day, which would also speak

01:05:31.349 --> 01:05:34.449
to the idea of better fuel partitioning. Fuel

01:05:34.449 --> 01:05:36.369
partitioning meaning this sort of technical term

01:05:36.369 --> 01:05:39.989
for where your body knows to go to excess energy.

01:05:40.289 --> 01:05:42.409
Are you going to glycogen? Are you going to the

01:05:42.409 --> 01:05:45.610
fat? And then where are you storing energy? So

01:05:45.610 --> 01:05:48.329
I suspect I was just better at fuel partitioning

01:05:48.329 --> 01:05:52.489
as a kid, which I'm sure most of us were. Anyway,

01:05:52.710 --> 01:05:55.050
it's kind of... Of course, the real question,

01:05:55.110 --> 01:05:56.730
the reason we care about this is like what could

01:05:56.730 --> 01:06:00.210
you do about it, right? Like what – for example,

01:06:00.289 --> 01:06:02.130
like that's probably one of the reasons why testosterone

01:06:02.130 --> 01:06:05.550
– as testosterone goes down, you're going to

01:06:05.550 --> 01:06:07.710
get fatter, all things equal. And part of the

01:06:07.710 --> 01:06:10.510
reason is testosterone upregulates LPL and hormone

01:06:10.510 --> 01:06:12.630
-sensitive lipase and all of these other enzymes

01:06:12.630 --> 01:06:15.110
in the direction of making you leaner versus

01:06:15.110 --> 01:06:21.000
fatter. So – but that – I – I just don't think

01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:22.820
that that's enough of it. I think there's something

01:06:22.820 --> 01:06:25.679
else that's going on that's triggering that decline.

01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:29.860
So for you with this 22 -hour window of not eating,

01:06:30.059 --> 01:06:32.539
what do you think the benefits are other than

01:06:32.539 --> 01:06:36.139
your energy and slight spikes in norepinephrine

01:06:36.139 --> 01:06:39.400
and some other hormones? Well, I don't think

01:06:39.400 --> 01:06:41.059
there's sufficient evidence at this point in

01:06:41.059 --> 01:06:42.780
time that time -restricted feeding is going to

01:06:42.780 --> 01:06:45.760
impact my longevity. So I think that's the big

01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:49.179
claim. What is the claim? What are they saying?

01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:52.440
Oh, I mean, I think the claim would be that fasting

01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:56.159
mimicry, which could be, you know, like what,

01:06:56.260 --> 01:06:58.460
say, Walter Longo talks about where you do a

01:06:58.460 --> 01:07:01.619
five -day hypocaloric diet of 750 to 1 ,000 calories

01:07:01.619 --> 01:07:04.000
a day for five days, followed by 25 days of ad

01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:05.519
libitum feeding, meaning eat whatever the hell

01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:09.099
you want. in terms of total caloric content,

01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:12.960
the claim is, well, that's going to enhance longevity.

01:07:13.539 --> 01:07:17.420
Or doing a 16 .8 or 18 .6 is going to enhance

01:07:17.420 --> 01:07:22.480
lifespan. So just to take a step back, I am only

01:07:22.480 --> 01:07:28.619
aware of... three things that have universally

01:07:28.619 --> 01:07:31.519
extended lifespan across all model organisms.

01:07:31.699 --> 01:07:33.719
So if you think of like all eukaryotes, right,

01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:36.780
if you go from yeast to worms to flies to mammals,

01:07:36.980 --> 01:07:40.739
the only things that uniformly extend life or

01:07:40.739 --> 01:07:43.800
almost uniformly is caloric restriction and or

01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:47.619
dietary restriction. So total reduction in calories

01:07:47.619 --> 01:07:50.179
during the lifetime and or reduction of certain

01:07:50.179 --> 01:07:52.619
subsets of those calories. So there's a super

01:07:52.619 --> 01:07:56.199
famous experiment that was done. Actually, if

01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:57.840
anyone's interested, I wrote about it. It's on

01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:00.119
my blog somewhere. But it's basically the best

01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.000
experiment ever done in caloric restriction was

01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:04.300
between monkeys. And there was a group at the

01:08:04.300 --> 01:08:06.159
NIH and a group at the University of Wisconsin.

01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:08.320
And it was like a 19 -year experiment or something

01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:10.760
like that. So you could really study the impact

01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:13.300
of caloric restriction over these things. And

01:08:13.300 --> 01:08:15.960
that experiment showed us that caloric restriction

01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:18.500
extended lifespan if you had a really shitty

01:08:18.500 --> 01:08:21.100
diet. And it did not extend lifespan if you had

01:08:21.100 --> 01:08:24.140
a really good diet. counterintuitive, but it

01:08:24.140 --> 01:08:26.439
also spoke to the idea that dietary restriction

01:08:26.439 --> 01:08:28.819
probably mattered. So in other words, if you're

01:08:28.819 --> 01:08:31.739
eating a regular diet of McDonald's every day,

01:08:31.779 --> 01:08:35.819
and then we put your counterpart eating 70 %

01:08:35.819 --> 01:08:37.819
of McDonald's every day, that's going to move

01:08:37.819 --> 01:08:41.220
the needle. But in the Wisconsin, in the NIH

01:08:41.220 --> 01:08:43.640
experiment, when you took the monkeys that were

01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:46.760
eating kind of, it wasn't their natural food,

01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:49.260
but it was less horrible food, the caloric restriction

01:08:49.260 --> 01:08:53.140
did not extend lifespan. That threw a wrench

01:08:53.140 --> 01:08:54.859
in everyone's understanding of caloric restriction.

01:08:55.060 --> 01:08:57.100
And there are certain strains of mice that also

01:08:57.100 --> 01:08:59.279
don't seem to be enhanced in terms of lifespan,

01:08:59.460 --> 01:09:03.880
meaning just time on Earth. But for the most

01:09:03.880 --> 01:09:07.300
part, nutrient deprivation pretty ubiquitously

01:09:07.300 --> 01:09:12.039
extends life. The second thing that uniformly

01:09:12.039 --> 01:09:14.760
extends life across this is a drug called rapamycin,

01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:17.340
which is kind of like my favorite drug in the

01:09:17.340 --> 01:09:19.449
whole world. I mean, meaning it's like I think

01:09:19.449 --> 01:09:21.609
it's the most important drug in terms of this

01:09:21.609 --> 01:09:24.310
space, not necessarily because it's a drug that

01:09:24.310 --> 01:09:26.090
we'll all be taking, though. I do believe that

01:09:26.090 --> 01:09:28.109
is the case, but more importantly, because of

01:09:28.109 --> 01:09:30.550
what it's taught us. about the nutrient -sensing

01:09:30.550 --> 01:09:33.250
pathway and its target, which is this protein

01:09:33.250 --> 01:09:36.170
called TOR, the target of rapamycin, or mTOR,

01:09:36.329 --> 01:09:37.829
as you've probably heard of it, is mechanistic

01:09:37.829 --> 01:09:41.529
target of rapamycin. And rapamycin inhibits that.

01:09:41.989 --> 01:09:43.869
Now, it's a bit complicated because there's two

01:09:43.869 --> 01:09:45.689
variants of it. There's something called mTOR

01:09:45.689 --> 01:09:48.710
complex 1 and mTOR complex 2. And if you take

01:09:48.710 --> 01:09:51.729
rapamycin day in and day out every day, which,

01:09:51.810 --> 01:09:54.149
for example, transplant patients do, it's an

01:09:54.149 --> 01:09:56.470
immune suppressant, that doesn't seem to really

01:09:56.470 --> 01:09:59.109
extend lifespan. But if you take it in a pulsatile

01:09:59.109 --> 01:10:02.810
way, you selectively get this mTORC1 inhibition

01:10:02.810 --> 01:10:05.409
without the mTORC2 inhibition. That seems to

01:10:05.409 --> 01:10:07.409
produce longevity big time. And how does that

01:10:07.409 --> 01:10:10.229
work? How would you take it selectively? Well,

01:10:10.390 --> 01:10:13.270
this is sort of one of my main clinical interests

01:10:13.270 --> 01:10:18.029
because I obviously am waiting for the day when

01:10:18.029 --> 01:10:20.729
I can start taking it and ultimately feel that

01:10:20.729 --> 01:10:22.449
it's safe enough that I could give it to patients.

01:10:23.960 --> 01:10:26.420
If I'm extrapolating from all of the best data

01:10:26.420 --> 01:10:28.460
out there, so that's looking at the work that's

01:10:28.460 --> 01:10:30.359
come out of a guy named David Sabatini's lab.

01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:33.479
David's a guy at MIT. He's a professor. He's

01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:35.279
actually the guy that when he was a medical student

01:10:35.279 --> 01:10:39.979
doing his PhD in 1994 actually discovered how

01:10:39.979 --> 01:10:42.640
rapamycin works in mammals. He's actually the

01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:45.239
guy that coined mechanistic target of rapamycin,

01:10:45.239 --> 01:10:48.819
mTORC, as a name. And so now whatever we are

01:10:48.819 --> 01:10:52.380
almost 25 years later. You know, he's still running

01:10:52.380 --> 01:10:54.380
the powerhouse lab that understands it. So if

01:10:54.380 --> 01:10:56.020
you look at all of the literature that's coming

01:10:56.020 --> 01:10:59.199
out of their lab, coupled with a guy named Matt

01:10:59.199 --> 01:11:01.420
Caberlin at the University of Washington, who's

01:11:01.420 --> 01:11:05.399
doing rapamycin studies in dogs, along with the

01:11:05.399 --> 01:11:08.079
work done by someone named Joan Manick, who was

01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:09.939
at the time at Novartis, is now at a company

01:11:09.939 --> 01:11:14.039
called Restore Bio, and a few other people. My

01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.939
intuition is that somewhere between two to six

01:11:16.939 --> 01:11:20.239
milligrams every five to seven days is probably

01:11:20.239 --> 01:11:24.800
the sweet spot. Um, but you know, am I confident

01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:27.020
enough in that to say that we should all be taking

01:11:27.020 --> 01:11:28.960
it? Not yet. There's a couple of things that

01:11:28.960 --> 01:11:32.000
like, I want to be able to measure before we

01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:37.100
do that. But, um, you know, in the animal data,

01:11:37.220 --> 01:11:39.020
this stuff's remarkable. If you look at Matt

01:11:39.020 --> 01:11:41.840
Caberlin's dog data, it's remarkable. Like what

01:11:41.840 --> 01:11:44.720
are they doing with it? Well, so you own a dog.

01:11:44.739 --> 01:11:47.199
You know this, right? I mean if you look at outside

01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:49.460
of euthanasia or accidents, how do dogs die?

01:11:49.539 --> 01:11:51.500
They basically die of cancer in heart and they

01:11:51.500 --> 01:11:53.399
get dilated cardiomyopathy. So it's a different

01:11:53.399 --> 01:11:55.039
type of heart disease than humans get. They don't

01:11:55.039 --> 01:11:57.359
get atherosclerotic disease. They get heart failure.

01:11:57.720 --> 01:12:00.100
Their hearts just get too, too, too big and their

01:12:00.100 --> 01:12:02.460
rejection fraction, which is the amount of blood,

01:12:02.539 --> 01:12:04.300
the percentage of blood that leaves the ventricular

01:12:04.300 --> 01:12:06.619
chamber with every contraction. As that number

01:12:06.619 --> 01:12:10.069
goes down, bad things happen. Now to put that

01:12:10.069 --> 01:12:12.090
in perspective, you and I sitting here, a couple

01:12:12.090 --> 01:12:14.470
of normal fit dudes, we probably have a resting

01:12:14.470 --> 01:12:19.050
ejection fraction of 60%. And if like we went

01:12:19.050 --> 01:12:21.189
out there and like killed it and worked out as

01:12:21.189 --> 01:12:22.869
hard as we could at peak, we might get that up

01:12:22.869 --> 01:12:27.369
to 80, 85 % ejection fraction. So once the ejection

01:12:27.369 --> 01:12:30.789
fraction gets below 30%, you know, a person starts

01:12:30.789 --> 01:12:35.359
to become very symptomatic. So Matt took these

01:12:35.359 --> 01:12:37.699
dogs that had low ejection fractions to begin

01:12:37.699 --> 01:12:39.479
with, and I forget what the exact number was,

01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:42.060
but it might have been like below 40 % or below

01:12:42.060 --> 01:12:46.380
30%, put them on rapamycin for 12 weeks, and

01:12:46.380 --> 01:12:49.939
in just 12 weeks saw an absolute 10 % improvement.

01:12:50.140 --> 01:12:52.899
So that means that's not going from 30 to 33.

01:12:53.100 --> 01:12:55.880
That's going from 30 to 40 % EF improvement.

01:12:57.619 --> 01:12:59.899
In other words, it's hard to measure an effect

01:12:59.899 --> 01:13:03.159
in 12 weeks of a drug. And certainly you're not

01:13:03.159 --> 01:13:04.819
going to be able to measure a longevity impact

01:13:04.819 --> 01:13:07.539
over that. So much of the study that's being

01:13:07.539 --> 01:13:09.520
done with this is looking at surrogate markers

01:13:09.520 --> 01:13:14.279
that we assume would portend longevity. So Matt's

01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:18.800
work focusing on the ejection fraction, Manick's

01:13:18.800 --> 01:13:21.859
work was focused on immune response. So this

01:13:21.859 --> 01:13:23.920
was the turning point for me. This was like December

01:13:23.920 --> 01:13:28.560
of 2014 was like when everything in my professional

01:13:28.560 --> 01:13:31.000
world shifted in terms of my interest towards

01:13:31.980 --> 01:13:33.880
Like rapamycin is the thing I want to know everything

01:13:33.880 --> 01:13:36.939
about because when I was a surgical resident,

01:13:37.079 --> 01:13:38.659
you know, we used to give rapamycin out like

01:13:38.659 --> 01:13:40.560
it was cotton candy to all the transplant patients.

01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:44.199
It was an amazing drug that revolutionized transplant

01:13:44.199 --> 01:13:47.640
physiology because it had far fewer side effects

01:13:47.640 --> 01:13:49.800
than massive doses of prednisone and things that

01:13:49.800 --> 01:13:51.520
we used to have to give patients. Now you could

01:13:51.520 --> 01:13:53.300
give them much less prednisone and you could

01:13:53.300 --> 01:13:56.289
give them rapamycin or. cousins of rapamycin,

01:13:56.329 --> 01:13:58.590
like FK -506. And what you're doing with that

01:13:58.590 --> 01:14:00.170
stuff is you're suppressing the immune system

01:14:00.170 --> 01:14:01.989
so the body doesn't reject the organ? Exactly.

01:14:02.289 --> 01:14:04.510
Now, when you do that, does that leave them susceptible

01:14:04.510 --> 01:14:07.569
to illness or disease? It does. Would that be

01:14:07.569 --> 01:14:10.069
the case with rapamycin in person taking it for

01:14:10.069 --> 01:14:11.729
longevity? And that's the million dollar question.

01:14:11.970 --> 01:14:16.430
And so I think in a moment, I'll tell you the

01:14:16.430 --> 01:14:17.909
story of how rapamycin came to be, because I

01:14:17.909 --> 01:14:19.489
think it's the most interesting story in biology,

01:14:19.710 --> 01:14:23.560
certainly in the last 25, 30 years. But When

01:14:23.560 --> 01:14:26.720
it was approved in 1999 by the FDA, it was for

01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:28.760
this indication. It was an immune suppressant.

01:14:28.960 --> 01:14:33.020
It was 10 years before anybody figured out that,

01:14:33.079 --> 01:14:36.460
oh, wait, this could also extend life. And therein

01:14:36.460 --> 01:14:38.619
you had this paradox, which was, wait a minute,

01:14:38.640 --> 01:14:40.939
how can an immune suppressant extend life? I

01:14:40.939 --> 01:14:43.000
mean, everybody acknowledges that immunity is

01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:50.010
a core element of health. In December of 2014,

01:14:50.289 --> 01:14:51.909
I feel like it was like almost Christmas Day.

01:14:52.010 --> 01:14:53.649
I remember thinking this is like the best present

01:14:53.649 --> 01:14:57.090
I've ever got. Mannix Group published this paper,

01:14:57.210 --> 01:15:02.630
which they did in a group of about 320 65 -year

01:15:02.630 --> 01:15:05.630
-olds -ish. So they put them into four groups.

01:15:05.710 --> 01:15:08.149
There was a placebo group. There was a group

01:15:08.149 --> 01:15:10.189
that got – and it wasn't actually rapamycin.

01:15:10.210 --> 01:15:12.890
It was Everolimus, which is an analog of rapamycin.

01:15:12.890 --> 01:15:14.409
It's basically the same drug. So there was a

01:15:14.409 --> 01:15:16.390
group that got one milligram every single day.

01:15:16.750 --> 01:15:19.770
5 milligrams once a week, 20 milligrams once

01:15:19.770 --> 01:15:22.329
a week. They did this for something like 8 to

01:15:22.329 --> 01:15:25.069
12 weeks, and then they washed out, meaning they

01:15:25.069 --> 01:15:26.909
got nothing for 8 to 12 weeks, and then they

01:15:26.909 --> 01:15:29.810
were hit with a flu vaccine, and then the scientists

01:15:29.810 --> 01:15:32.430
measured the immune response, doing these really

01:15:32.430 --> 01:15:34.590
complicated assays where you look at T cell function.

01:15:35.949 --> 01:15:39.390
So relative to the placebo, paradoxically, all

01:15:39.390 --> 01:15:41.770
groups, and I say paradoxically because even

01:15:41.770 --> 01:15:44.319
the group that got 1 milligram once a day, all

01:15:44.319 --> 01:15:46.479
saw an increase in immunity, which is a good

01:15:46.479 --> 01:15:50.699
thing. But the 5 and 20 group saw an even bigger

01:15:50.699 --> 01:15:52.800
response. The people who just got 5 once a week

01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:55.020
or 20 once a week saw an even bigger response.

01:15:55.460 --> 01:15:57.739
But the group that took 20 once a week had more

01:15:57.739 --> 01:16:00.100
side effects. And the biggest side effect of

01:16:00.100 --> 01:16:02.800
rapamycin acutely is these awful, awful mouth

01:16:02.800 --> 01:16:05.760
sores called aphthous ulcers. They're nasty.

01:16:05.819 --> 01:16:08.539
They're brutal. I used to get them all the time

01:16:08.539 --> 01:16:12.060
just from, I think, sleep deprivation or something

01:16:12.060 --> 01:16:15.739
that was weakening my immune system. It's an

01:16:15.739 --> 01:16:18.279
internal sore, not like a cold sore? No, no,

01:16:18.340 --> 01:16:21.039
no. Like a canker sore. It's a really nasty type

01:16:21.039 --> 01:16:27.470
of canker sore, yeah. Once I had one so bad that

01:16:27.470 --> 01:16:28.729
I was like, this was when I was in residency

01:16:28.729 --> 01:16:30.489
and I was like, it was just driving me nuts.

01:16:30.590 --> 01:16:32.689
So I went to the OR and I got a bunch of lidocaine,

01:16:32.729 --> 01:16:34.789
which is a local anesthetic. And I went into

01:16:34.789 --> 01:16:36.770
the call room and I just grabbed my tongue and

01:16:36.770 --> 01:16:39.050
just injected like lidocaine in it. And just

01:16:39.050 --> 01:16:40.710
when I did that, somebody walked in and I've

01:16:40.710 --> 01:16:42.590
got like blood dripping down from my mouth and

01:16:42.590 --> 01:16:44.210
I've got a needle in my mouth. And they're like,

01:16:44.229 --> 01:16:46.109
and I'm like, no, no, no, it's not what you think.

01:16:46.189 --> 01:16:49.250
It's not what you think. I swear it's lidocaine.

01:16:49.250 --> 01:16:53.609
They're like, dude. We got you into help. We

01:16:53.609 --> 01:16:57.050
have support groups for people like you. Lidocaine

01:16:57.050 --> 01:16:59.750
is disgusting. I had my deviated septum fixed

01:16:59.750 --> 01:17:02.789
and they shoved the lidocaine up there. It's

01:17:02.789 --> 01:17:06.510
harsh stuff. And the rest of the day I just felt

01:17:06.510 --> 01:17:10.270
like shaky and just weird. And then I realized,

01:17:10.369 --> 01:17:13.630
oh, this is almost like a cocaine type thing.

01:17:14.250 --> 01:17:16.430
It's a cousin. Do you know why we have lidocaine?

01:17:16.750 --> 01:17:18.569
Because of cocaine. Yeah. Yeah. It's a guy named

01:17:18.569 --> 01:17:21.569
William Stuart Halstead, who was so near and

01:17:21.569 --> 01:17:23.329
dear to my heart because he was the original.

01:17:23.350 --> 01:17:25.689
He was the founding surgeon at Johns Hopkins

01:17:25.689 --> 01:17:28.529
and one of the original four horsemen. So the

01:17:28.529 --> 01:17:31.270
four main physicians that basically have shaped

01:17:31.270 --> 01:17:34.069
medicine in this country all started out at Hopkins.

01:17:34.909 --> 01:17:37.989
Osler in medicine, Hopkins in surgery and two

01:17:37.989 --> 01:17:40.409
other guys, Walsh and I'm blank on Kelly was

01:17:40.409 --> 01:17:45.210
the third one. And he basically figured out because

01:17:45.210 --> 01:17:47.609
you got to remember, like. there was a day when

01:17:47.609 --> 01:17:51.489
surgery was staggeringly barbaric. Like prior

01:17:51.489 --> 01:17:55.890
to ether surgery was like, all right, can you

01:17:55.890 --> 01:17:58.770
hold them down? Like gag them, get them drunk,

01:17:58.930 --> 01:18:00.909
gag them. And like, we're going to do our thing.

01:18:01.649 --> 01:18:06.609
It's just crazy. So God, I used to know all of

01:18:06.609 --> 01:18:07.970
this shit. I don't remember any of the exact

01:18:07.970 --> 01:18:10.829
dates anymore, but it was like kind of like mid

01:18:10.829 --> 01:18:15.350
1800s to late 1800s when up at, um, Massachusetts

01:18:15.350 --> 01:18:17.810
General Hospital, I forget the name of who it

01:18:17.810 --> 01:18:19.489
was, but someone basically came up with ether.

01:18:19.630 --> 01:18:21.789
So ether became the first form of anesthetic.

01:18:22.130 --> 01:18:23.729
But, you know, you were sort of knocking people

01:18:23.729 --> 01:18:25.970
out. Well, it was, you know, fast forward probably

01:18:25.970 --> 01:18:28.869
20, 30 years when Halstead figured out that this

01:18:28.869 --> 01:18:31.630
thing called cocaine could provide local anesthetic.

01:18:32.010 --> 01:18:34.409
So he began experimenting with like crazy. And

01:18:34.409 --> 01:18:36.600
of course, in the process became. like patently

01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:39.539
addicted to it. So you have this entire generation

01:18:39.539 --> 01:18:43.300
of surgeons at Hopkins from that early era that

01:18:43.300 --> 01:18:45.600
were completely coke addicted. So Halstead and

01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:49.159
all of his first generation of residents. And

01:18:49.159 --> 01:18:51.600
then, of course, from that, we got lidocaine,

01:18:51.779 --> 01:18:54.119
bupivacaine, all of these things that don't have

01:18:54.119 --> 01:18:56.800
the same properties. But to this day, cocaine

01:18:56.800 --> 01:18:59.260
is still used. And most people don't realize

01:18:59.260 --> 01:19:02.000
it, but cocaine is a Schedule II drug, meaning

01:19:02.000 --> 01:19:03.539
it actually has a medical application, unlike

01:19:03.539 --> 01:19:06.239
heroin, which is Schedule I in the DEA. And marijuana.

01:19:06.640 --> 01:19:09.899
That's right. But cocaine is Schedule II, and

01:19:09.899 --> 01:19:12.899
it is still used in some ENT surgery because

01:19:12.899 --> 01:19:15.800
it has some favorable properties over even lidocaine

01:19:15.800 --> 01:19:18.329
and bupivacaine for nasal surgery. Did you know

01:19:18.329 --> 01:19:20.750
that they still use cocoa leaves for flavor in

01:19:20.750 --> 01:19:23.029
Coca -Cola? They actually extract the cocaine

01:19:23.029 --> 01:19:24.949
from it, use the cocoa leaves, and the cocaine

01:19:24.949 --> 01:19:28.329
goes to medical. I didn't know that. I had cocoa

01:19:28.329 --> 01:19:31.109
tea for my first time this summer. Like real.

01:19:31.329 --> 01:19:33.649
Cocoa de latte. But like brought up from. Mate.

01:19:33.750 --> 01:19:35.930
Mate de cocoa. That's what it is. Oh. Yeah. It's

01:19:35.930 --> 01:19:37.789
great. I could not get enough of that stuff.

01:19:38.090 --> 01:19:40.470
You can't shut the fuck up on it, though. It's

01:19:40.470 --> 01:19:43.210
a weird sort of high. It's a very strange thing.

01:19:43.289 --> 01:19:45.939
It's very talkative. Sort of high. I thought

01:19:45.939 --> 01:19:47.659
it was just, everything about it was like just

01:19:47.659 --> 01:19:48.579
such a great taste. You ever chewed the leaves?

01:19:48.720 --> 01:19:50.979
You ever done that, like in Peru? No, no. I've

01:19:50.979 --> 01:19:52.579
never done it either, but apparently it's really

01:19:52.579 --> 01:19:55.779
interesting. It's like a coffee sort of a thing,

01:19:55.859 --> 01:19:59.479
and it's got flavonoids. It's actually probably

01:19:59.479 --> 01:20:02.739
healthy for you. I just love plants in general.

01:20:04.489 --> 01:20:07.289
We think of the coca leaves as producing cocaine.

01:20:07.449 --> 01:20:09.569
Cocaine we think of as inherently negative. But

01:20:09.569 --> 01:20:13.270
the leaf itself, if you just don't extract it,

01:20:13.329 --> 01:20:14.930
it's actually really good for you. Well, that's

01:20:14.930 --> 01:20:17.609
the thing. Even thinking about the difference

01:20:17.609 --> 01:20:20.470
between... eating fruit versus eating Oreos.

01:20:20.750 --> 01:20:24.630
Yeah. Like, yeah, like nature's pretty good at

01:20:24.630 --> 01:20:28.029
regulating how fast this stuff. So in the case

01:20:28.029 --> 01:20:30.409
of fruit, like how quickly does fructose hit

01:20:30.409 --> 01:20:33.069
your liver? There's a sort of governor built

01:20:33.069 --> 01:20:34.890
into it. If you're eating raspberries, like.

01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:37.420
Could you get non -alcoholic fatty liver disease

01:20:37.420 --> 01:20:39.380
from eating enough raspberries? Yeah, probably.

01:20:39.760 --> 01:20:42.439
You'd have to go crazy. Yeah, you need to become

01:20:42.439 --> 01:20:45.000
a full -time job. Or you could just drink a giant

01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:47.020
gallon of orange juice every day. Right. That

01:20:47.020 --> 01:20:50.340
would do it. That would do it. Crazy. Most people

01:20:50.340 --> 01:20:52.520
think of fresh squeezed orange juice as being,

01:20:52.560 --> 01:20:55.119
oh, you're eating healthy. Look at you over there

01:20:55.119 --> 01:20:56.239
with your fresh squeezed orange juice. Yeah,

01:20:56.239 --> 01:20:58.579
you're juicing. It's totally healthy. Super healthy.

01:20:59.079 --> 01:21:01.399
Meanwhile, you're just drinking a big old glass

01:21:01.399 --> 01:21:04.079
of sugar. Literally, your body doesn't know the

01:21:04.079 --> 01:21:06.560
difference between that and a Coca -Cola. Very

01:21:06.560 --> 01:21:07.920
little difference between the two, unfortunately.

01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:09.779
Well, Coca -Cola's got some other stuff in there,

01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:12.399
caffeine. But other than that, just the sugar

01:21:12.399 --> 01:21:14.380
itself. Yeah, your liver would have a hard time

01:21:14.380 --> 01:21:17.619
telling the difference. So crazy. Most people

01:21:17.619 --> 01:21:20.510
would think. A glass of orange juice at breakfast

01:21:20.510 --> 01:21:24.350
is a healthy choice. A glass of sugar. Have a

01:21:24.350 --> 01:21:27.529
Mountain Dew. Yeah. It might be better. It might

01:21:27.529 --> 01:21:33.649
get more shit done. So the dosage of 1, 5, and

01:21:33.649 --> 01:21:37.609
then 20. So that study, I remember reading that

01:21:37.609 --> 01:21:40.170
and thinking, okay. So if you looked at that

01:21:40.170 --> 01:21:41.770
study, you realized if you're going to be in

01:21:41.770 --> 01:21:44.350
the placebo, the 1 a day, the 5 once a week,

01:21:44.390 --> 01:21:46.560
or the 20 once a week, the 5. Once a week was

01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:48.600
the way to go. That's the sweet spot. That's

01:21:48.600 --> 01:21:51.020
right. You got all the benefit of 20, more benefit

01:21:51.020 --> 01:21:54.239
than one, and the fewest side effects. And how

01:21:54.239 --> 01:21:58.220
long is this study? That was an eight -week intervention

01:21:58.220 --> 01:22:00.340
with an eight -week washout was enough to see

01:22:00.340 --> 01:22:03.020
the enhanced immunity. Do you think that a longer

01:22:03.020 --> 01:22:06.779
-term study is necessary to see whether or not

01:22:06.779 --> 01:22:09.279
the body adapts? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all

01:22:09.279 --> 01:22:11.960
this stuff is in its infancy. Now, my shtick

01:22:11.960 --> 01:22:16.079
is... So right now, rapamycin is off patent,

01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:18.819
right? So the drug was approved in 99 by the

01:22:18.819 --> 01:22:22.500
FDA, but this is after an unbelievable, amazing

01:22:22.500 --> 01:22:25.060
story of like how, you know, this drug almost

01:22:25.060 --> 01:22:29.380
got lost forever. Like, you know, so there's

01:22:29.380 --> 01:22:32.279
no economic incentive for a company to, you know,

01:22:32.279 --> 01:22:34.680
figure out how to do this thing with rapamycin.

01:22:35.380 --> 01:22:38.380
And even Everolimus, I think ultimately Novartis,

01:22:38.380 --> 01:22:40.899
and I'm saying this with no... actual knowledge

01:22:40.899 --> 01:22:42.720
other than just my own speculation. But I suspect

01:22:42.720 --> 01:22:45.319
Novartis was like, well, you know, we're not

01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:47.300
going to play this game just with Everolimus.

01:22:47.420 --> 01:22:49.399
And that's, I think, why it probably spun into

01:22:49.399 --> 01:22:52.720
this other company, Restore Bio, to sort of combine

01:22:52.720 --> 01:22:58.300
it with other agents. But at an N of one level,

01:22:58.359 --> 01:23:01.859
what I'm kind of interested in doing is, you

01:23:01.859 --> 01:23:04.500
know, using myself as a guinea pig to start to

01:23:04.500 --> 01:23:07.979
measure the benefits of it. Because My hypothesis

01:23:07.979 --> 01:23:11.079
is three things have to be true if rapamycin

01:23:11.079 --> 01:23:14.140
is working. Now, I could be wrong, but this is

01:23:14.140 --> 01:23:17.260
my hypothesis and this is what I test with other

01:23:17.260 --> 01:23:20.840
scientists is if you are taking rapamycin at

01:23:20.840 --> 01:23:23.659
the right dose, so assume you're not getting

01:23:23.659 --> 01:23:25.199
all the nasty side effects. You're not getting

01:23:25.199 --> 01:23:27.140
the mouth sores and stuff like that. Three things

01:23:27.140 --> 01:23:29.460
have to get better. One, your glucose metabolism.

01:23:30.279 --> 01:23:32.359
Should at least get no worse but potentially

01:23:32.359 --> 01:23:34.899
better. I suspect it's a function of where you

01:23:34.899 --> 01:23:38.199
start. So there is one doctor in New York who

01:23:38.199 --> 01:23:40.819
has like a rapamycin practice. I think he's in

01:23:40.819 --> 01:23:45.859
the Bronx actually. And I've talked to him a

01:23:45.859 --> 01:23:51.079
bunch. And when he started it himself, he said

01:23:51.079 --> 01:23:53.260
like. The improvements were remarkable just in

01:23:53.260 --> 01:23:55.460
terms of glucose metabolism. But I think he was

01:23:55.460 --> 01:23:57.880
starting at a pretty bad spot. But if you or

01:23:57.880 --> 01:24:00.500
I took it, we might not notice much getting better,

01:24:00.560 --> 01:24:02.539
but we definitely should not get worse. So that's

01:24:02.539 --> 01:24:04.800
easy to measure clinically. You do as an oral

01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:06.640
glucose tolerance test would give you that answer.

01:24:07.220 --> 01:24:10.199
But two things should get significantly better.

01:24:10.319 --> 01:24:12.300
The first is immune function should get better,

01:24:12.380 --> 01:24:15.659
not worse. There is no clinical way to measure

01:24:15.659 --> 01:24:18.180
that. But we do know how to measure it. I mean,

01:24:18.199 --> 01:24:20.800
when I was doing my postdoc, it was in an immunology

01:24:20.800 --> 01:24:23.220
lab. Like I know how to do that assay. I just

01:24:23.220 --> 01:24:25.600
don't have like a million dollars worth of equipment

01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:27.399
to measure it. What is the difference in the

01:24:27.399 --> 01:24:30.380
dosage, even in the high end at 20 versus what

01:24:30.380 --> 01:24:32.739
you would give someone if they got a liver transplant?

01:24:33.079 --> 01:24:35.260
Yeah. Yeah. Typical transplant dose would have

01:24:35.260 --> 01:24:38.739
been like two, three milligrams every day. Okay.

01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:41.640
So it's quite a bit. different. It is. And it's

01:24:41.640 --> 01:24:43.939
different on two levels because, you know, when

01:24:43.939 --> 01:24:46.100
you're giving it every day at a lower dose, you

01:24:46.100 --> 01:24:48.779
still end up producing tissue levels that might

01:24:48.779 --> 01:24:51.640
even be comparable to where that person was getting

01:24:51.640 --> 01:24:55.560
with the spike of 20. And in general, this isn't

01:24:55.560 --> 01:24:57.500
always true, but in general, in pharmacology,

01:24:57.640 --> 01:25:00.380
side effects are the result of certain side effects

01:25:00.380 --> 01:25:02.439
are the result of the nadir dose and certain

01:25:02.439 --> 01:25:04.060
side effects are the result of the peak dose.

01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:06.140
So with every drug, you kind of have to understand

01:25:06.140 --> 01:25:08.810
this a little bit. But going back to this rapamycin

01:25:08.810 --> 01:25:10.989
thing, the third thing that has to be true, in

01:25:10.989 --> 01:25:13.850
my opinion, I could be full of shit, but I think

01:25:13.850 --> 01:25:15.289
the third thing that has to be true if you're

01:25:15.289 --> 01:25:17.569
taking the right dose is you need to see an uptick

01:25:17.569 --> 01:25:22.670
in autophagy. What does that mean? Autophagy

01:25:22.670 --> 01:25:25.329
is this process where the body cells start eating

01:25:25.329 --> 01:25:27.609
themselves. So it's kind of like a programmed

01:25:27.609 --> 01:25:30.609
cell death, although technically we reserve that

01:25:30.609 --> 01:25:33.029
term for something called apoptosis. But when

01:25:33.029 --> 01:25:36.569
you're fasting, what's... Why would fasting produce

01:25:36.569 --> 01:25:39.710
a benefit? I think the most logical explanation

01:25:39.710 --> 01:25:43.270
is enhanced autophagy. So the body basically

01:25:43.270 --> 01:25:45.350
has to prioritize in the absence of nutrients.

01:25:45.569 --> 01:25:48.630
The underperforming cells are basically told,

01:25:48.750 --> 01:25:51.449
eat yourself. And we can recycle some of your

01:25:51.449 --> 01:25:53.210
components. Maybe this mitochondria is worth

01:25:53.210 --> 01:25:55.289
saving. This Golgi apparatus is worth saving.

01:25:55.609 --> 01:25:58.750
And then we selectively, when we refeed, repopulate

01:25:58.750 --> 01:26:01.670
the better cells. And in many ways, I think rapamycin

01:26:01.670 --> 01:26:05.000
can do that in a pill. So the problem is we don't

01:26:05.000 --> 01:26:07.659
have a blood test to measure autophagy. So in

01:26:07.659 --> 01:26:11.020
the lab when you measure autophagy, you need

01:26:11.020 --> 01:26:13.239
muscle biopsies or they typically even just sacrifice

01:26:13.239 --> 01:26:16.000
the animals. This has become a very hot area.

01:26:16.079 --> 01:26:18.579
So the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology

01:26:18.579 --> 01:26:23.060
was awarded for the genetic – basically the elucidation

01:26:23.060 --> 01:26:26.579
of the genetic regulation of autophagy in – actually

01:26:26.579 --> 01:26:28.380
it was 2016. So it's very recent, about a year

01:26:28.380 --> 01:26:29.619
and a half ago. This is what the Nobel Prize

01:26:29.619 --> 01:26:32.630
was awarded for. But what I'm hoping is that

01:26:32.630 --> 01:26:34.770
we can develop a signature for autophagy with

01:26:34.770 --> 01:26:38.229
a blood test. So I believe that you should be

01:26:38.229 --> 01:26:42.569
able to look at someone's blood and look at all

01:26:42.569 --> 01:26:45.970
of the metabolomics, all of the small molecules,

01:26:46.189 --> 01:26:48.670
all of the proteome, and there should be a signature.

01:26:49.239 --> 01:26:51.300
it should look different from the way we look

01:26:51.300 --> 01:26:53.539
when we're, you know, fasted or sorry, fully

01:26:53.539 --> 01:26:56.500
fed. Otherwise, would you just take a sample

01:26:56.500 --> 01:26:58.699
of the muscle tissue, like punch something out?

01:26:58.859 --> 01:27:01.199
Yeah. And, and I'm, I mean, I'm willing to do

01:27:01.199 --> 01:27:03.039
it all and I probably will. We're just trying

01:27:03.039 --> 01:27:04.659
to get what's called an IRB and institutional

01:27:04.659 --> 01:27:07.020
review board. So to do these kinds of studies

01:27:07.020 --> 01:27:09.960
in humans, even if I'm the only subject and it's

01:27:09.960 --> 01:27:11.960
just like, I don't care what you do to me kind

01:27:11.960 --> 01:27:14.079
of thing, we still have to get an IRB. So we're.

01:27:14.460 --> 01:27:18.140
working on getting an N of one IRB so that we

01:27:18.140 --> 01:27:20.840
can take muscle biopsies, fat biopsies from me,

01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:23.220
blood tests, and then start to actually look

01:27:23.220 --> 01:27:25.880
for that signature. Would it vary in where you

01:27:25.880 --> 01:27:27.819
got it from? Like would you want to get it from

01:27:27.819 --> 01:27:30.180
more than one muscle group? That's a very good

01:27:30.180 --> 01:27:33.060
question. I don't know the answer. I probably

01:27:33.060 --> 01:27:34.979
have to talk to people who have a lot of experience

01:27:34.979 --> 01:27:37.729
doing this with animals. It actually wouldn't

01:27:37.729 --> 01:27:39.770
surprise me. Like if I were going to do it, I

01:27:39.770 --> 01:27:42.390
would just start in the legs because the muscles

01:27:42.390 --> 01:27:45.689
in the legs tend to be the harbinger of what's

01:27:45.689 --> 01:27:47.329
going on in the body. So for example, one of

01:27:47.329 --> 01:27:49.949
the first signs of diabetes, like a decade before

01:27:49.949 --> 01:27:53.090
you get diabetes, one thing that if you're actually

01:27:53.090 --> 01:27:55.710
doing this kind of testing in people, you'll

01:27:55.710 --> 01:27:58.069
notice glucose, like insulin resistance in the

01:27:58.069 --> 01:28:01.119
muscles of the legs. So once the legs start to

01:28:01.119 --> 01:28:03.380
get insulin resistant, you're on a glide path

01:28:03.380 --> 01:28:06.300
to bad things happening. I'm fascinated by legs,

01:28:06.399 --> 01:28:09.500
first of all, from years of martial arts, but

01:28:09.500 --> 01:28:12.399
also because over the last year or so, I've been

01:28:12.399 --> 01:28:15.140
doing a lot of running, and it's one of the only

01:28:15.140 --> 01:28:17.119
muscle groups that I can work out every day.

01:28:17.279 --> 01:28:23.039
I can run hills every day, and I'm not sore.

01:28:23.279 --> 01:28:26.600
Like, that's not even possible for any other

01:28:26.600 --> 01:28:28.850
group. I mean, I can kind of do that with boxing.

01:28:29.090 --> 01:28:32.350
You can hit the bag. But as far as like running

01:28:32.350 --> 01:28:35.329
hills is essentially like plyometrics. Like you're

01:28:35.329 --> 01:28:38.510
pushing your entire weight up and then you're

01:28:38.510 --> 01:28:40.229
catching with the other leg and pushing it up.

01:28:40.270 --> 01:28:42.720
Yeah, yeah. You can't do that. You can't bench

01:28:42.720 --> 01:28:44.399
press every day. Your fucking arms will fall

01:28:44.399 --> 01:28:47.060
off. I mean, there's probably someone out there

01:28:47.060 --> 01:28:49.020
doing it that's proven me wrong, but it's nothing

01:28:49.020 --> 01:28:50.960
like the amount of endurance that you have in

01:28:50.960 --> 01:28:52.399
your legs. But it could just be an adaptation

01:28:52.399 --> 01:28:55.180
that you've had as well. I mean, when I was a

01:28:55.180 --> 01:28:58.899
competitive cyclist, I mean, there were definitely

01:28:58.899 --> 01:29:01.060
days when I would, especially when we did like

01:29:01.060 --> 01:29:04.359
multi -day events, like there were days when

01:29:04.359 --> 01:29:07.250
it's just. You're beaten down. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:29:07.449 --> 01:29:08.710
Oh, for sure. You're going to learn in the first

01:29:08.710 --> 01:29:10.750
10 minutes. Like everybody else is riding together.

01:29:10.770 --> 01:29:13.390
You're riding alone today. The fatigue level,

01:29:13.489 --> 01:29:15.930
though, is significantly different than it would

01:29:15.930 --> 01:29:18.029
be if you were doing something with your arms

01:29:18.029 --> 01:29:19.770
every day. It seems like your ability to recover.

01:29:19.770 --> 01:29:21.310
Well, you can definitely recruit more. That's

01:29:21.310 --> 01:29:22.649
probably part of it, right? Okay, so there's

01:29:22.649 --> 01:29:25.210
more tissue. I think you have more options. Like

01:29:25.210 --> 01:29:26.949
you can, you know, especially if you really have

01:29:26.949 --> 01:29:29.250
good proprioception. But, for example, like if

01:29:29.250 --> 01:29:32.529
you're deadlifting, you know, I actually think.

01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:36.560
So you know how you have like the positive and

01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:38.380
negative motion, concentric, eccentric motion

01:29:38.380 --> 01:29:41.619
of a weight? If you're willing to do away with

01:29:41.619 --> 01:29:45.340
the negative, you can lift heavy every single

01:29:45.340 --> 01:29:47.939
day. So there's this guy named Ryan. Oh, unfreaking

01:29:47.939 --> 01:29:50.880
believable data. I've seen people doing that.

01:29:50.920 --> 01:29:53.920
You know, I saw that Andre Galvao on his Instagram

01:29:53.920 --> 01:29:56.020
the other day was doing deadlifts and just dropping

01:29:56.020 --> 01:29:57.659
the weight. And I was like, that seems weird

01:29:57.659 --> 01:30:00.119
to me. So when I was a cyclist, this was my training.

01:30:00.650 --> 01:30:02.310
And it was all put together by this guy named

01:30:02.310 --> 01:30:04.550
Ryan Flaherty who actually introduced – that

01:30:04.550 --> 01:30:06.130
was another one of my sight unseen introductions

01:30:06.130 --> 01:30:08.569
to Tim for a podcast. It's a great podcast with

01:30:08.569 --> 01:30:11.510
Ryan Flaherty on. And he's – I call him the guru

01:30:11.510 --> 01:30:15.229
of speed. This is a guy who like single -handedly

01:30:15.229 --> 01:30:16.970
– I shouldn't say single -handedly. I mean he's

01:30:16.970 --> 01:30:18.449
on the shoulders of many other people who have

01:30:18.449 --> 01:30:22.229
done great work. But has really done an amazing

01:30:22.229 --> 01:30:24.270
job of figuring out how to make people run fast.

01:30:27.069 --> 01:30:28.930
It's a very long story. And I mean, he does such

01:30:28.930 --> 01:30:30.470
a great job on the podcast. I won't go into it.

01:30:30.489 --> 01:30:33.890
But for the purpose of this discussion, one of

01:30:33.890 --> 01:30:35.970
our interests was, hey, could we translate everything

01:30:35.970 --> 01:30:38.409
you've learned about sprinting into cycling?

01:30:39.090 --> 01:30:41.710
And his biggest observation was the following.

01:30:41.829 --> 01:30:44.829
If he took 100 runners and lined them up and

01:30:44.829 --> 01:30:49.489
knew, like before they ran, knew how hard they

01:30:49.489 --> 01:30:52.050
could hit a force plate treadmill, he could predict

01:30:52.050 --> 01:30:54.609
the order in which they'd finish the race. So

01:30:54.609 --> 01:30:56.149
a force plate treadmill, as its name suggests,

01:30:56.250 --> 01:30:58.149
a treadmill, but it's a special treadmill where

01:30:58.149 --> 01:31:02.550
it measures the force that you hit. And the higher

01:31:02.550 --> 01:31:04.850
that number divided by your body weight, that

01:31:04.850 --> 01:31:07.289
became what he described as mass -specific force,

01:31:07.409 --> 01:31:11.170
that number, if you rank order it, is the order

01:31:11.170 --> 01:31:14.689
in which people would finish the run. So it kind

01:31:14.689 --> 01:31:15.909
of makes sense if you think about it, right?

01:31:15.949 --> 01:31:17.810
The harder you can hit the ground relative to

01:31:17.810 --> 01:31:20.050
your own weight, the higher you go, and the higher

01:31:20.050 --> 01:31:22.149
you go, the longer you travel with each stride.

01:31:22.460 --> 01:31:26.380
So Usain Bolt has the highest ever force plate

01:31:26.380 --> 01:31:31.020
measurement calculation. And it's, I forget what

01:31:31.020 --> 01:31:35.640
his ratio is. I want to say he's like 6 .9 or

01:31:35.640 --> 01:31:38.800
seven times more force than his body weight every

01:31:38.800 --> 01:31:43.140
time he hits. Freaking staggering. Wow. So then

01:31:43.140 --> 01:31:45.079
Ryan's, once he figured all this stuff out, his

01:31:45.079 --> 01:31:46.600
next question, this is when he was working at

01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:48.579
USA Track. His next question was, could you train

01:31:48.579 --> 01:31:52.159
this? In other words, like, okay. Joe runs a

01:31:52.159 --> 01:31:56.800
4 .940, and we want to get that down to a 4 .5.

01:31:57.079 --> 01:31:59.899
Can that be done? And it turned out the answer

01:31:59.899 --> 01:32:03.399
was categorically yes. You have to do two things.

01:32:03.520 --> 01:32:05.199
You have to get stronger, and you have to get

01:32:05.199 --> 01:32:07.699
lighter. So how do you do that? And that's when

01:32:07.699 --> 01:32:10.340
he came up with this idea of we do hex bar deadlifts.

01:32:10.659 --> 01:32:13.699
We lift really heavy, so you're only doing fives,

01:32:13.699 --> 01:32:16.020
fours, threes, or twos, never more than five

01:32:16.020 --> 01:32:19.000
reps. And so you'll do five sets every single

01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:21.810
day. And you'll pick it. So some days it'll be

01:32:21.810 --> 01:32:23.689
five sets of three. Some days it's five sets

01:32:23.689 --> 01:32:26.510
of five, whatever it is. And they're very well

01:32:26.510 --> 01:32:29.550
prescribed, like at what percentage of your one

01:32:29.550 --> 01:32:32.510
rep max you're doing these at. And it's up, drop.

01:32:33.020 --> 01:32:36.619
Up, drop, up, drop. So you're never getting the

01:32:36.619 --> 01:32:39.439
actin myosin filament to tear past because that's

01:32:39.439 --> 01:32:41.979
what's happening in the negative is the actin

01:32:41.979 --> 01:32:45.420
is coming off the myosin and that is creating

01:32:45.420 --> 01:32:47.260
a micro tear in the muscle and that's what the

01:32:47.260 --> 01:32:49.500
muscle rebuilt. That's why we get larger when

01:32:49.500 --> 01:32:51.760
we lift weights. But when you drop it, you...

01:32:52.279 --> 01:32:54.859
to unload the muscle when you're relaxing it.

01:32:54.979 --> 01:32:57.520
So the muscle's not going to get bigger. So you're

01:32:57.520 --> 01:32:59.460
getting all the benefits, all the strength, which

01:32:59.460 --> 01:33:02.239
is primarily around the type 2B muscle fiber

01:33:02.239 --> 01:33:08.199
and without the size. So anyway, when I asked

01:33:08.199 --> 01:33:09.920
Ryan, hey, could we do this in cycling? We did

01:33:09.920 --> 01:33:11.859
this experiment, which was he kind of came up,

01:33:11.899 --> 01:33:14.359
this was for me and two other guys who were very

01:33:14.359 --> 01:33:16.180
good cyclists. Like I was like, I'm a popper,

01:33:16.199 --> 01:33:19.189
but these guys were like. cat one, cat two collegiate

01:33:19.189 --> 01:33:21.810
cyclists, but they were like my training partners.

01:33:22.250 --> 01:33:25.489
So we did this thing where we did the same routine

01:33:25.489 --> 01:33:27.170
that he had the sprinters doing. And it's a bit

01:33:27.170 --> 01:33:28.409
more complicated than I've described because

01:33:28.409 --> 01:33:32.569
you're also juxtaposing the positive only with

01:33:32.569 --> 01:33:34.710
something called a post -activation potentiation,

01:33:34.890 --> 01:33:37.109
which you may have already experienced this,

01:33:37.170 --> 01:33:39.409
but I don't know if you've ever tried to do plyometrics

01:33:39.409 --> 01:33:42.250
after deadlifting, but it seems counterintuitive

01:33:42.250 --> 01:33:45.020
that you'd be able to do more, but you can. Really?

01:33:45.140 --> 01:33:47.520
Yeah. It has to be a heavy deadlift. More in

01:33:47.520 --> 01:33:49.460
terms of numbers or more in terms of? No, more

01:33:49.460 --> 01:33:51.279
in terms of distance, like more in terms of vertical.

01:33:51.539 --> 01:33:55.840
Really? So your highest like plyometric jump

01:33:55.840 --> 01:33:58.699
is going to come after you've done like, you

01:33:58.699 --> 01:34:02.420
know, three sets of three at, you know, 95 %

01:34:02.420 --> 01:34:04.260
of your one rep max. And three sets of three

01:34:04.260 --> 01:34:06.800
dropping or using eccentric? No, definitely dropping.

01:34:06.800 --> 01:34:09.159
No eccentric. Absolutely. Yeah. Huh. Wow. And

01:34:09.159 --> 01:34:11.779
so we would superset the plyometrics with the

01:34:11.779 --> 01:34:15.159
deadlifts. And you would do this every day. And

01:34:15.159 --> 01:34:18.560
so Ryan, you know, he runs a training camp where

01:34:18.560 --> 01:34:22.399
he has typically the top 10 college prospects

01:34:22.399 --> 01:34:24.619
every year just before the NFL combine come down.

01:34:25.359 --> 01:34:28.260
And I mean, the changes he makes in their time,

01:34:28.279 --> 01:34:29.800
like Johnny Menzel was one of them. So obviously

01:34:29.800 --> 01:34:32.460
Johnny Menzel is obviously, you know, not panned

01:34:32.460 --> 01:34:34.380
out in the pros, but most people kind of forget

01:34:34.380 --> 01:34:36.800
how good an athlete he was. And when he showed

01:34:36.800 --> 01:34:40.359
up to camp, I forget what his time was, but I

01:34:40.359 --> 01:34:42.869
want to say it was about. I don't know. You could

01:34:42.869 --> 01:34:45.470
probably look this up for me. You know, it was

01:34:45.470 --> 01:34:48.869
three tenths slower than what he ultimately ran

01:34:48.869 --> 01:34:51.390
at the combine. And he I think he had the fastest

01:34:51.390 --> 01:34:53.470
or second fastest quarterback time at the combine

01:34:53.470 --> 01:34:56.689
after just 12 weeks of doing this. Wow. I mean,

01:34:56.710 --> 01:34:59.699
it was unbelievable. how fast he can get these

01:34:59.699 --> 01:35:02.159
guys to run. I saw something the other day that

01:35:02.159 --> 01:35:04.659
I'd never seen before. It's an eccentric bike.

01:35:04.880 --> 01:35:07.479
It changes back and forth. I've heard of this

01:35:07.479 --> 01:35:09.119
thing. You're the second person to tell me about

01:35:09.119 --> 01:35:11.520
this. I think I saw it yesterday, in fact, now

01:35:11.520 --> 01:35:14.079
that I think about it. It was eccentric and concentric,

01:35:14.100 --> 01:35:17.960
but it alternates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it looked

01:35:17.960 --> 01:35:20.920
really weird. It forces movement, and you're

01:35:20.920 --> 01:35:23.319
resisting the movement. See if you can find that,

01:35:23.399 --> 01:35:25.840
Jamie. It's like an eccentric, I forget what

01:35:25.840 --> 01:35:29.270
it's called. Someone sent me this, like, hey,

01:35:29.350 --> 01:35:30.989
this thing's amazing. I was like, it's a bike.

01:35:31.149 --> 01:35:33.010
The fuck are you talking about? It looked different

01:35:33.010 --> 01:35:35.510
than that. The one I saw was also different.

01:35:35.609 --> 01:35:39.069
I think it was like a recumbent bike. Yeah, that's

01:35:39.069 --> 01:35:42.210
what I saw, too. Eccentric. Yeah, you're spelling

01:35:42.210 --> 01:35:47.229
it wrong. Oh, it says just centric. Oh, okay.

01:35:48.130 --> 01:35:54.199
Huh. Eccentric exercise bike? Try that. But the

01:35:54.199 --> 01:35:57.140
thing is it alternated between eccentric and

01:35:57.140 --> 01:36:00.380
concentric. It wasn't just, hmm, the one with

01:36:00.380 --> 01:36:03.359
the red on the top row looks like it. What is

01:36:03.359 --> 01:36:06.279
that? Pediatric ergometer. No, that's not it.

01:36:06.479 --> 01:36:11.380
It's for little kids. Well, whatever. I wish

01:36:11.380 --> 01:36:13.199
I had saved it because I was like, I'm never

01:36:13.199 --> 01:36:17.239
buying this. It just looked interesting. There's

01:36:17.239 --> 01:36:20.220
always these new methods of stimulating the body

01:36:20.220 --> 01:36:22.880
and tricking it into doing things. And I guess

01:36:22.880 --> 01:36:24.859
that's essentially what a lot of people – the

01:36:24.859 --> 01:36:26.880
way a lot of people think of intermittent fasting.

01:36:26.979 --> 01:36:28.800
You're kind of stimulating the body. You're hacking

01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:32.220
it. You're tricking it. And I wonder – one of

01:36:32.220 --> 01:36:34.560
the things that Ryan and I talked about was could

01:36:34.560 --> 01:36:37.500
we ever adopt his training system to swimming?

01:36:39.200 --> 01:36:41.760
In running and cycling, it's primarily going

01:36:41.760 --> 01:36:44.539
to be quads, hams, glutes have to be the muscles

01:36:44.539 --> 01:36:47.020
that do it. Would you throw things? Well, we

01:36:47.020 --> 01:36:49.020
were talking about like you really got to be

01:36:49.020 --> 01:36:51.039
able to get the lats fired. But how do you get

01:36:51.039 --> 01:36:53.880
the lats to fire at such a weight and then without

01:36:53.880 --> 01:36:57.319
having to do the negative as well? So we just

01:36:57.319 --> 01:36:58.859
couldn't really kind of figure out how to do

01:36:58.859 --> 01:37:03.000
it. So we adapted part of his technique to swimming,

01:37:03.100 --> 01:37:05.859
which was the actual training routine, meaning.

01:37:06.380 --> 01:37:08.880
So one of the big misconceptions if you're trying

01:37:08.880 --> 01:37:11.600
to go fast is that you need to still train slow.

01:37:12.079 --> 01:37:14.779
But the reality of it is like, you know, if you're

01:37:14.779 --> 01:37:19.659
trying to run a marathon at, you know, call it

01:37:19.659 --> 01:37:23.180
a pace of 215, you know, world -class marathon

01:37:23.180 --> 01:37:26.020
runner, there's not a lot of benefit to spending

01:37:26.020 --> 01:37:28.460
much time running at a pace slower than that.

01:37:28.729 --> 01:37:29.729
If anything, you want to be running slightly

01:37:29.729 --> 01:37:31.289
faster than that. So you know who Meb is, the

01:37:31.289 --> 01:37:33.090
American marathoner who won the Boston Marathon

01:37:33.090 --> 01:37:37.729
three years ago? No. So amazing marathoner. I

01:37:37.729 --> 01:37:41.609
think he's the only person to have won the New

01:37:41.609 --> 01:37:43.810
York Marathon, the Boston Marathon, and to have

01:37:43.810 --> 01:37:46.069
won an Olympic medal in marathon. He won a silver

01:37:46.069 --> 01:37:50.029
medal in the 2004 Athens Games. But when he won

01:37:50.029 --> 01:37:52.810
the Boston Marathon, he was like 38 years old,

01:37:52.850 --> 01:37:55.390
which in marathon. parlance is like, he might

01:37:55.390 --> 01:37:57.829
as well be a hundred. And he had not really had

01:37:57.829 --> 01:38:00.470
a great race in the previous few years. So he

01:38:00.470 --> 01:38:02.289
had been effectively written off in the sport

01:38:02.289 --> 01:38:05.829
and Ryan actually helped train him. And all they

01:38:05.829 --> 01:38:08.149
did was apply this principle of sprinting into

01:38:08.149 --> 01:38:10.789
marathon running, which was all right, Meb, if

01:38:10.789 --> 01:38:12.930
you want to win the Boston marathon, you need

01:38:12.930 --> 01:38:15.170
to be able to travel like four inches further

01:38:15.170 --> 01:38:18.289
with every step you take, taking the same number

01:38:18.289 --> 01:38:19.970
of steps at the same cadence that you currently

01:38:19.970 --> 01:38:23.010
run. And they, you know, Ryan did the math and

01:38:23.010 --> 01:38:25.899
said, That means your force number has to go

01:38:25.899 --> 01:38:27.960
from where it is now, which I think was 1 .7,

01:38:28.079 --> 01:38:30.680
meaning he could only deadlift 1 .7 times his

01:38:30.680 --> 01:38:32.380
body weight. You have to get that up to like

01:38:32.380 --> 01:38:35.359
2 .6 or something. And so when Meb trained for

01:38:35.359 --> 01:38:38.960
the Boston Marathon, he was focusing heavily

01:38:38.960 --> 01:38:41.460
on these deadlifts and doing much shorter, faster

01:38:41.460 --> 01:38:44.779
runs. And, you know, I mean, if you watch the

01:38:44.779 --> 01:38:47.159
video of his Boston Marathon win, it's incredible.

01:38:47.380 --> 01:38:51.640
Like, you know, he just takes off and like leaves

01:38:51.640 --> 01:38:53.659
everybody behind him and they're like. Yeah,

01:38:53.699 --> 01:38:55.039
there's no way he'll be able to keep that up.

01:38:55.079 --> 01:38:56.619
We'll let him go. And they couldn't rein him

01:38:56.619 --> 01:38:59.960
in. Wow. Do you think that someone's going to

01:38:59.960 --> 01:39:02.680
be able to break two? We were just talking about

01:39:02.680 --> 01:39:04.180
it the other day. Some guy got really close.

01:39:04.319 --> 01:39:06.560
What did you say he hit, Jamie? Like 206 or something?

01:39:06.920 --> 01:39:08.720
I think someone's gone closer. Didn't that guy

01:39:08.720 --> 01:39:11.680
in Germany last year go even closer? I think

01:39:11.680 --> 01:39:14.840
it was 202 or something along those lines. And

01:39:14.840 --> 01:39:16.739
you think that this sort of method is what they're

01:39:16.739 --> 01:39:19.569
using? So I don't know if I'm allowed to talk

01:39:19.569 --> 01:39:22.829
about this stuff publicly. Don't worry, no one's

01:39:22.829 --> 01:39:28.869
listening. So short answer is yes, I think this

01:39:28.869 --> 01:39:33.390
can be done. Everything has to be perfect, right?

01:39:33.470 --> 01:39:35.869
Meaning you have to have the perfect athlete

01:39:35.869 --> 01:39:39.880
trained. to peak at the right time you need the

01:39:39.880 --> 01:39:41.760
right humidity like everything has to fire in

01:39:41.760 --> 01:39:46.300
all cylinders but just as there was nothing physiologically

01:39:46.300 --> 01:39:49.119
special about a four minute mile when roger bannister

01:39:49.119 --> 01:39:51.140
broke it it was more of a psychological barrier

01:39:51.140 --> 01:39:55.180
um you know i'm not suggesting for a moment that

01:39:55.180 --> 01:39:57.920
this will be easy but you know we're gonna get

01:39:57.920 --> 01:40:01.199
there i mean like this can happen that is incredible

01:40:01.199 --> 01:40:03.159
if you think about how fast you're running to

01:40:03.159 --> 01:40:06.289
run 26 miles In two hours and two minutes. It's

01:40:06.289 --> 01:40:08.430
staggering. I don't think people understand like

01:40:08.430 --> 01:40:13.149
what a – I mean I was never a great runner. I

01:40:13.149 --> 01:40:17.489
was about a 250 marathon, 255 marathon when I

01:40:17.489 --> 01:40:19.789
was a boxer but never trained as a runner. Like

01:40:19.789 --> 01:40:21.609
it was just – I just ran so much and I was pretty

01:40:21.609 --> 01:40:25.909
fast. But like when I think about how hard I

01:40:25.909 --> 01:40:29.890
would have to run to bust out a 250 to 255 and

01:40:29.890 --> 01:40:32.029
to think like was there any chance I could have

01:40:32.029 --> 01:40:38.069
ever got that down to a 230? That is such an

01:40:38.069 --> 01:40:42.470
enormous change in pace. I don't know that I

01:40:42.470 --> 01:40:44.029
ever could have done that regardless of all the

01:40:44.029 --> 01:40:45.810
training tricks in the world. And what kind of

01:40:45.810 --> 01:40:49.470
diet are those guys following? Well, I know Meb

01:40:49.470 --> 01:40:51.409
personally. I can't speak to what the other guys

01:40:51.409 --> 01:40:53.289
do, but I think a lot of those guys are frankly

01:40:53.289 --> 01:40:56.729
in the state of where I was when they were younger,

01:40:56.850 --> 01:40:59.289
meaning they can probably get away with a lot

01:40:59.289 --> 01:41:02.350
more. If you look at the physiques of most of

01:41:02.350 --> 01:41:05.909
these guys, they're... they're perfectly built.

01:41:05.970 --> 01:41:07.390
Like I'm talking elite level. I'm not talking

01:41:07.390 --> 01:41:08.869
about like anyone who go runs a marathon, but

01:41:08.869 --> 01:41:09.850
if you're talking about like the people who are

01:41:09.850 --> 01:41:13.350
going to win the marathons, they are basically

01:41:13.350 --> 01:41:16.489
all engine and then chassis in the right place.

01:41:16.810 --> 01:41:18.229
That's basically all they come down to, right?

01:41:18.310 --> 01:41:21.630
I mean, they are enormous cardiovascular system.

01:41:22.570 --> 01:41:25.489
very strong quads, hams, glutes, and then everything

01:41:25.489 --> 01:41:27.789
else is very tiny. When you say enormous, like

01:41:27.789 --> 01:41:29.470
is literally the size of their lungs different?

01:41:29.470 --> 01:41:31.630
Yeah, you actually look at, well, I mean, it's

01:41:31.630 --> 01:41:33.789
all relative, but when you look at their frame,

01:41:34.109 --> 01:41:36.590
their thorax is going to be larger. And is it

01:41:36.590 --> 01:41:38.729
expanded because of the training? I think so.

01:41:38.949 --> 01:41:41.710
I mean, you never know cause and effect. Sometimes

01:41:41.710 --> 01:41:45.149
you could argue like maybe these guys were, maybe

01:41:45.149 --> 01:41:47.170
the people who are drawn to those sports are

01:41:47.170 --> 01:41:49.279
the ones that are, you know. or are drawn to

01:41:49.279 --> 01:41:51.899
be elite in those sports, already had a genetic

01:41:51.899 --> 01:41:53.979
predisposition. That's sort of my feeling is

01:41:53.979 --> 01:41:54.720
it's a bit of both. Isn't that the case with

01:41:54.720 --> 01:41:56.779
Lance Armstrong? Like, doesn't he have a very

01:41:56.779 --> 01:42:01.359
large heart? I don't know. I think what Lance

01:42:01.359 --> 01:42:04.939
had that was pretty unique, even amongst the

01:42:04.939 --> 01:42:07.640
world's best, which is what he competed with,

01:42:07.680 --> 01:42:10.720
of course, I think his lactate threshold was

01:42:10.720 --> 01:42:13.739
a lot higher than most people. Genetically. Yeah.

01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:16.279
And then, of course, and again, you know, I mean,

01:42:16.300 --> 01:42:18.000
I know it's such a controversial topic, although

01:42:18.000 --> 01:42:21.939
my view is I think that every single cyclist,

01:42:21.939 --> 01:42:26.600
at least from 1991 till 2011, was on highly,

01:42:26.659 --> 01:42:30.479
highly, you know, augmented programs. So, you

01:42:30.479 --> 01:42:34.920
know, that Lance won seven of those years in

01:42:34.920 --> 01:42:37.500
that context just tells me that he was, you know.

01:42:38.440 --> 01:42:40.640
training harder and being more specific to the

01:42:40.640 --> 01:42:41.899
race. I mean, what people don't understand is

01:42:41.899 --> 01:42:44.600
like, I mean, Lance only peaked for one race

01:42:44.600 --> 01:42:47.500
a year. Like everything that that team US Postal

01:42:47.500 --> 01:42:52.359
did was geared for that one race. And also when

01:42:52.359 --> 01:42:54.640
you really look at how much doping they did,

01:42:54.699 --> 01:42:58.119
it actually wasn't that much. Like, you know,

01:42:58.119 --> 01:42:59.479
when they were blood transfusing, it might've

01:42:59.479 --> 01:43:01.899
been two units over the course of a race. And

01:43:01.899 --> 01:43:04.000
I'm not saying that that wouldn't help. It would

01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:07.579
help a lot, but. That's nothing compared to what

01:43:07.579 --> 01:43:09.899
people were doing just a few years before Lance

01:43:09.899 --> 01:43:11.960
came along. So Lance won, I think, his first

01:43:11.960 --> 01:43:14.800
one in 99. The guy who won before that in 98

01:43:14.800 --> 01:43:17.020
was Marco Pantani. Before that was a guy named

01:43:17.020 --> 01:43:19.079
Jan Ulrich in 97. And before that was a guy named

01:43:19.079 --> 01:43:23.279
Bjorn Ries. Bjorn Ries' nickname was Mr. 60 because

01:43:23.279 --> 01:43:27.560
his hematocrit was always over 60. That's freaking

01:43:27.560 --> 01:43:29.939
– like how that guy didn't die of a stroke, I

01:43:29.939 --> 01:43:33.479
don't know. Is that from EPO? Yeah. Lance never

01:43:33.479 --> 01:43:36.079
had a crit over 50 to my knowledge. They would

01:43:36.079 --> 01:43:40.539
basically always titrate with EPO and or hemoglobin

01:43:40.539 --> 01:43:44.899
up to 50, which was the trigger. So, you know,

01:43:44.920 --> 01:43:47.079
but but I think and again, I've never I don't

01:43:47.079 --> 01:43:49.000
know Lance at all. So I certainly don't know

01:43:49.000 --> 01:43:50.939
anything about him beyond like the little bits

01:43:50.939 --> 01:43:53.420
that I have read over time. But I do think his

01:43:53.420 --> 01:43:57.039
lactate tolerance was remarkable, meaning. You

01:43:57.039 --> 01:43:59.119
know, we measure lactate in athletes, swimmers,

01:43:59.119 --> 01:44:01.119
and cyclists when they're, you know, trying to

01:44:01.119 --> 01:44:03.140
figure out what their performance is. And as

01:44:03.140 --> 01:44:04.920
far as I can tell, there seem to be these two

01:44:04.920 --> 01:44:07.760
phenotypes. There's the one phenotype where people

01:44:07.760 --> 01:44:10.279
can tolerate staggeringly high amounts of lactate.

01:44:10.520 --> 01:44:13.199
And again, it's not lactate per se that— causing

01:44:13.199 --> 01:44:15.939
the pain that you're experiencing. It's the hydrogen

01:44:15.939 --> 01:44:20.300
ion that accompanies the lactate. So lactic acid,

01:44:20.420 --> 01:44:22.720
the acid part of that is the hydrogen ion. And

01:44:22.720 --> 01:44:25.100
that's actually what's poisoning the muscle and

01:44:25.100 --> 01:44:28.539
preventing the muscle from having this effortless

01:44:28.539 --> 01:44:31.579
actin myosin act, you know, contract, release,

01:44:31.800 --> 01:44:34.479
et cetera. But we use lactate as a proxy because

01:44:34.479 --> 01:44:36.420
where lactate is high, the hydrogen ion is high.

01:44:36.820 --> 01:44:38.699
And there are some people who can just tolerate

01:44:38.699 --> 01:44:41.539
like incredible doses. I used to work with Olympic

01:44:41.539 --> 01:44:44.819
swimmers and, uh, I mean, there were just a couple

01:44:44.819 --> 01:44:46.960
of these guys, like they could actually be standing

01:44:46.960 --> 01:44:50.279
with a lactate of 24. I mean, when I was competing,

01:44:50.399 --> 01:44:53.319
if I had a lactate above 16 or 17, I couldn't

01:44:53.319 --> 01:44:56.619
be standing. Like that was just too much pain.

01:44:56.899 --> 01:44:59.500
Like I was on the floor. If I was over 17, I

01:44:59.500 --> 01:45:02.920
was puking and I saw dudes that could stand there

01:45:02.920 --> 01:45:07.069
at 24. In fact, one of my good friends, he won

01:45:07.069 --> 01:45:09.729
a gold and a silver medal in the Sydney Olympics

01:45:09.729 --> 01:45:13.470
and retired from swimming in 2004, then came

01:45:13.470 --> 01:45:16.810
back to swim masters. And he actually was trying

01:45:16.810 --> 01:45:19.489
to make a comeback to make the 2012 Olympic team.

01:45:19.590 --> 01:45:21.510
And when he was training for that, I would poke

01:45:21.510 --> 01:45:24.090
him between races. And I saw him get out of a

01:45:24.090 --> 01:45:26.770
400 individual medley race, which is the hardest

01:45:26.770 --> 01:45:29.850
swim race of them all. The 400 IM is, I mean,

01:45:29.869 --> 01:45:31.350
you might as well just shoot yourself. It's so

01:45:31.350 --> 01:45:33.609
painful. He got out of that, had a lactate of,

01:45:34.800 --> 01:45:37.340
18, two minutes later, not two minutes later,

01:45:37.380 --> 01:45:39.140
maybe seven minutes later, jumped on the blocks

01:45:39.140 --> 01:45:41.420
and won a hundred breast race, you know, came

01:45:41.420 --> 01:45:43.319
out with a lactate of 21, that kind of thing.

01:45:43.680 --> 01:45:45.420
So there are those guys. And then I think at

01:45:45.420 --> 01:45:48.439
the other end of the spectrum, the word on the

01:45:48.439 --> 01:45:50.140
street is guys like Michael Phelps are at the

01:45:50.140 --> 01:45:53.500
opposite end of that, where they are so efficient.

01:45:54.140 --> 01:45:57.319
at shuttling lactic acid out of the cell back

01:45:57.319 --> 01:45:59.619
to the liver, where this thing called the Cori

01:45:59.619 --> 01:46:02.260
cycle actually turns lactate back into glucose,

01:46:02.560 --> 01:46:04.859
that they never have high levels of lactate.

01:46:04.880 --> 01:46:06.479
Now, again, all of this is sort of speculation,

01:46:07.600 --> 01:46:09.399
because I think they were very hush -hush about

01:46:09.399 --> 01:46:12.579
Phelps's numbers. But I heard from reliable and

01:46:12.579 --> 01:46:14.539
reasonable sources that he would rarely have

01:46:14.539 --> 01:46:17.079
a lactate above 8 .0, including when he's breaking

01:46:17.079 --> 01:46:20.789
world records. Whoa. which for me at 8 .0, like

01:46:20.789 --> 01:46:23.229
I'm smoking and joking, like that's fine. But

01:46:23.229 --> 01:46:26.329
for, you know, he was so efficient at getting

01:46:26.329 --> 01:46:29.289
rid of it that, yeah, he could, you know, set

01:46:29.289 --> 01:46:31.130
the world record in the 400 IM and have a lactate

01:46:31.130 --> 01:46:32.970
of eight. Again, I don't know if this is true,

01:46:33.130 --> 01:46:37.090
but I've, there's certainly a plausible mechanism

01:46:37.090 --> 01:46:39.149
by which it could be. Well, it's fascinating

01:46:39.149 --> 01:46:40.930
that this could potentially all be engineered,

01:46:41.149 --> 01:46:43.510
right? That like through use of CRISPR or something

01:46:43.510 --> 01:46:46.350
else, you could take all these various facets

01:46:46.350 --> 01:46:51.020
of performance enhancing. modalities extend a

01:46:51.020 --> 01:46:53.539
person's ability in so many different ways and

01:46:53.539 --> 01:46:56.020
create a super person yeah of course it's interesting

01:46:56.020 --> 01:46:58.039
right once you start genetically doing it if

01:46:58.039 --> 01:47:00.039
you could does it become cheating in the same

01:47:00.039 --> 01:47:02.039
way like would we would we have does it if you

01:47:02.039 --> 01:47:04.119
have someone like phelps who has this genetic

01:47:04.119 --> 01:47:07.720
predisposition to getting rid of lactose lactate

01:47:07.720 --> 01:47:10.319
and you take someone like me who probably has

01:47:10.319 --> 01:47:12.880
none of that and you know you juice me up to

01:47:12.880 --> 01:47:17.239
his level is that cheating I mean, I don't know.

01:47:17.300 --> 01:47:18.340
I mean, those are the questions. I mean, this

01:47:18.340 --> 01:47:20.899
is why people like Daniel Coyle, who are so critical

01:47:20.899 --> 01:47:23.840
of Lance Armstrong, say, because on the one hand,

01:47:23.899 --> 01:47:25.560
you'll have camps that say, look, it's the great

01:47:25.560 --> 01:47:27.579
equalizer. Like, why don't we just let everybody

01:47:27.579 --> 01:47:30.479
dope? That's a steroid argument with MMA as well.

01:47:30.659 --> 01:47:33.220
Well, and frankly, it's more my argument. But

01:47:33.220 --> 01:47:35.060
I have a different reason for arguing that way,

01:47:35.140 --> 01:47:37.739
which is I think having done these sports and

01:47:37.739 --> 01:47:39.600
nowhere near at the high level that those guys

01:47:39.600 --> 01:47:41.579
do it, I just know how destructive they are.

01:47:41.869 --> 01:47:43.810
Like the Tour de France is the most unhealthy

01:47:43.810 --> 01:47:45.909
thing on the face of the earth. I've heard that

01:47:45.909 --> 01:47:49.189
it's healthier to do the Tour de France on steroids

01:47:49.189 --> 01:47:52.489
than it is to do it off steroids. Abso -fucking

01:47:52.489 --> 01:47:55.489
-lutely. When those guys finish the Tour de France,

01:47:55.569 --> 01:47:57.649
they are osteopenic. I mean their bone density

01:47:57.649 --> 01:48:01.329
has eroded. They have lost so much muscle mass.

01:48:01.489 --> 01:48:04.310
I mean it is a devastating, grueling event. Now

01:48:04.310 --> 01:48:06.510
nothing is going to completely ameliorate that.

01:48:08.170 --> 01:48:10.609
If we think that, like, watching these guys kill

01:48:10.609 --> 01:48:14.489
themselves riding six hours a day, hitting peak

01:48:14.489 --> 01:48:17.409
thresholds of, you know, six watts per kilogram,

01:48:17.670 --> 01:48:19.270
if we think there's anything physiologically

01:48:19.270 --> 01:48:21.689
reasonable about that, we're out to fucking lunch.

01:48:21.890 --> 01:48:23.939
But is that the point? I mean isn't that the

01:48:23.939 --> 01:48:26.439
point is that you can push your mind to do something

01:48:26.439 --> 01:48:29.399
your body absolutely doesn't want to do. So you

01:48:29.399 --> 01:48:32.899
should be rewarded for that. And these guys are

01:48:32.899 --> 01:48:34.199
in a league of their own. I mean professional

01:48:34.199 --> 01:48:36.119
cyclists are some of the toughest athletes out

01:48:36.119 --> 01:48:37.939
there. I mean obviously every athlete at the

01:48:37.939 --> 01:48:40.319
peak of their game is remarkable. And no disrespect

01:48:40.319 --> 01:48:43.180
to like the best running back in the NFL. But

01:48:43.180 --> 01:48:46.279
like you can't even compare that to what a guy

01:48:46.279 --> 01:48:49.060
does. For workload for sure. Yeah for just the

01:48:49.060 --> 01:48:52.289
pain. Like the absolute sheer. discomfort and

01:48:52.289 --> 01:48:54.710
the physiologic torture and the duration of it

01:48:54.710 --> 01:48:56.369
and all of these other things. Well, you see

01:48:56.369 --> 01:48:58.489
it in their faces, too. Those guys, like when

01:48:58.489 --> 01:49:00.090
they retire, they look like they're 10 years

01:49:00.090 --> 01:49:02.130
older than they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,

01:49:02.149 --> 01:49:03.989
they've lost all of the fat. A lot of them, you

01:49:03.989 --> 01:49:05.630
know, they just if you don't have fat in your

01:49:05.630 --> 01:49:08.189
face, I mean, you age dramatically. They just

01:49:08.189 --> 01:49:11.250
look exhausted, too. I mean, it looks like it's

01:49:11.250 --> 01:49:13.590
just drained them like they've forced to live

01:49:13.590 --> 01:49:16.229
30 years inside of 10. Yeah. So it's like, what

01:49:16.229 --> 01:49:18.670
if we just say, guess what? Everybody is allowed

01:49:18.670 --> 01:49:21.550
to use whatever amounts of EPO, blood, testosterone

01:49:21.550 --> 01:49:24.909
to be at the 80th percentile of what we consider

01:49:24.909 --> 01:49:26.689
normal. So everybody is allowed to walk around

01:49:26.689 --> 01:49:31.210
with a hemoglobin of 14 .7 or up to 14 .7 or

01:49:31.210 --> 01:49:33.609
15. People would cheat that, right? Wouldn't

01:49:33.609 --> 01:49:36.470
they? I mean if you allow people to use a certain

01:49:36.470 --> 01:49:39.449
amount. But I also think like the testing on

01:49:39.449 --> 01:49:43.229
this stuff is so like. It's so JV. Now, there's

01:49:43.229 --> 01:49:45.130
this idea called the biological passport that

01:49:45.130 --> 01:49:46.869
was introduced many years ago, which basically

01:49:46.869 --> 01:49:48.670
said, look, we're going to develop a signature

01:49:48.670 --> 01:49:51.289
for every person. And now if you deviate much

01:49:51.289 --> 01:49:53.550
from your signature, that'll be the trigger.

01:49:54.409 --> 01:49:56.750
And the argument, again, by certain people, and

01:49:56.750 --> 01:50:00.010
I think Daniel Coyle argued this a lot in one

01:50:00.010 --> 01:50:02.369
of his books that he wrote, Ripping Apart Lance,

01:50:02.529 --> 01:50:07.670
was The reason doping is unfair because the everybody

01:50:07.670 --> 01:50:10.289
does it argument doesn't hold water is because

01:50:10.289 --> 01:50:13.569
if you're a person who naturally lives at a hematocrit

01:50:13.569 --> 01:50:16.729
of 47, you're only getting a slight improvement

01:50:16.729 --> 01:50:20.029
going from 47 to 50. If you're a person who naturally

01:50:20.029 --> 01:50:23.789
lives at 43, you going from 43 to 50, you get

01:50:23.789 --> 01:50:27.789
a much bigger advantage. To which I say, yeah,

01:50:27.989 --> 01:50:31.090
but that's true on a relative basis, but an absolute

01:50:31.090 --> 01:50:34.300
level. If everybody's walking around with a hematocrit

01:50:34.300 --> 01:50:36.899
of 48 to 50, they still have the same oxygen

01:50:36.899 --> 01:50:39.039
carrying capacity. It does level the playing

01:50:39.039 --> 01:50:42.520
field. The concern, though, isn't I would believe

01:50:42.520 --> 01:50:45.340
the concern is you don't want people to think

01:50:45.340 --> 01:50:47.439
that the only way to do this sport is to take

01:50:47.439 --> 01:50:50.680
drugs. Well, absolutely. And it's also worth

01:50:50.680 --> 01:50:53.380
putting in mind that and this is sort of my pet

01:50:53.380 --> 01:50:55.579
peeve with this whole drug and sport thing is

01:50:55.579 --> 01:50:59.699
like, I mean. Personally, I don't really give

01:50:59.699 --> 01:51:01.340
a shit. I mean, I just have bigger things I care

01:51:01.340 --> 01:51:03.899
about than like how many steroids Barry Bonds

01:51:03.899 --> 01:51:06.380
took to hit all those home runs. But what really

01:51:06.380 --> 01:51:08.460
does chap my ass is when people don't actually

01:51:08.460 --> 01:51:10.979
understand how steroids work, right? Like it

01:51:10.979 --> 01:51:13.760
bugs the shit out of me when people assume that

01:51:13.760 --> 01:51:16.319
if you take steroids, you will have, you know,

01:51:16.319 --> 01:51:18.939
you will hit that many, you know, home runs or

01:51:18.939 --> 01:51:21.319
you will run this fast or lift this much. The

01:51:21.319 --> 01:51:23.300
only thing that steroid is doing is enabling

01:51:23.300 --> 01:51:26.569
you to recover faster. from the brutal work that

01:51:26.569 --> 01:51:30.649
it takes to actually do those things. So, you

01:51:30.649 --> 01:51:34.029
know, all the, if I, if I shot myself full of

01:51:34.029 --> 01:51:36.529
EPO, I mean, you've probably seen Icarus, right?

01:51:36.909 --> 01:51:38.350
I mean, I thought that was, I thought he did

01:51:38.350 --> 01:51:40.630
it. I thought, uh, Brian Fogle. Yeah. I thought

01:51:40.630 --> 01:51:41.869
Brian Fogle did a really good job of showing

01:51:41.869 --> 01:51:44.489
like, I mean, and he was a pretty good responder

01:51:44.489 --> 01:51:47.710
to the EPO. I think he did a growth hormone,

01:51:47.750 --> 01:51:50.810
testosterone and EPO. I mean, you saw in the

01:51:50.810 --> 01:51:53.710
end of the day. he he finished worse the second

01:51:53.710 --> 01:51:55.890
year round because yeah but his bike ran out

01:51:55.890 --> 01:51:58.369
exactly that's my point you see like people don't

01:51:58.369 --> 01:52:01.529
realize like one little thing makes all the difference

01:52:01.529 --> 01:52:04.130
from a performance standpoint yeah he probably

01:52:04.130 --> 01:52:06.119
would have done a little bit better but It's

01:52:06.119 --> 01:52:08.399
not because the drugs were in him per se. It's

01:52:08.399 --> 01:52:10.000
because the drugs that were in him allowed to

01:52:10.000 --> 01:52:12.760
train more. So the reason he was a fitter rider

01:52:12.760 --> 01:52:16.600
the second year was because his watts per kilo

01:52:16.600 --> 01:52:18.579
were higher because of how much more he trained.

01:52:18.779 --> 01:52:21.020
The drugs enabled him to train that much harder.

01:52:21.220 --> 01:52:23.340
Yeah, that's what it does. It allows you to train

01:52:23.340 --> 01:52:25.939
harder so you recover better so you have more

01:52:25.939 --> 01:52:28.520
output. Correct. But we don't want young kids

01:52:28.520 --> 01:52:30.279
to think that the only way to do this is start

01:52:30.279 --> 01:52:32.500
taking steroids and fuck up your endocrine system.

01:52:32.619 --> 01:52:34.920
No, of course not. But we also want to keep in

01:52:34.920 --> 01:52:38.109
mind. Like, see, it almost requires like a broader

01:52:38.109 --> 01:52:40.850
discussion, which is like, why do we care? Well,

01:52:40.869 --> 01:52:43.130
we care in combat sports because it allows you

01:52:43.130 --> 01:52:45.149
to inflict more damage. No, no, no. I'm saying

01:52:45.149 --> 01:52:48.109
like, why would, why do, why? Let's just say

01:52:48.109 --> 01:52:50.369
I'm not a professional athlete. Okay. Why do

01:52:50.369 --> 01:52:53.409
I actually care how fast I run or how fast I

01:52:53.409 --> 01:52:56.010
ride or any of these other things? Well, because

01:52:56.010 --> 01:52:58.670
you want to brag about it. Okay. So maybe you're

01:52:58.670 --> 01:53:00.170
a weightlifter. Right. So maybe therein lies

01:53:00.170 --> 01:53:03.630
the problem. I mean, I mean, I, you know, when

01:53:03.630 --> 01:53:08.010
I stopped. cycling competitively, I think a big

01:53:08.010 --> 01:53:11.329
part of it was I just realized that performance

01:53:11.329 --> 01:53:15.350
and longevity stopped being collinear. They started

01:53:15.350 --> 01:53:17.229
to become somewhat orthogonal. They started to

01:53:17.229 --> 01:53:19.470
deviate. In other words, the things that I was

01:53:19.470 --> 01:53:21.869
doing that were enhancing my performance, and

01:53:21.869 --> 01:53:23.510
I'm not even talking about drugs, I'm just talking

01:53:23.510 --> 01:53:26.649
training -wise, it seemed to come at the expense

01:53:26.649 --> 01:53:28.489
of what I believed was going to make me live

01:53:28.489 --> 01:53:31.890
longer. So specifically, the thing I cared most

01:53:31.890 --> 01:53:35.430
about was cardiovascular health. Now, the incidence

01:53:35.430 --> 01:53:39.130
of atrial fibrillation in highly trained athletes

01:53:39.130 --> 01:53:41.890
is 10 times higher than that of non -athletes.

01:53:42.630 --> 01:53:45.069
So like that's a little counterintuitive, right?

01:53:45.170 --> 01:53:47.850
Like why would people who have such amazingly

01:53:47.850 --> 01:53:51.109
fit cardiovascular systems have 10 times the

01:53:51.109 --> 01:53:53.789
risk of this horrible condition called atrial

01:53:53.789 --> 01:53:56.270
fibrillation, which yeah, many people have it,

01:53:56.289 --> 01:53:58.189
but not young. You're not supposed to have that

01:53:58.189 --> 01:54:00.970
when you're 40. And it's usually associated with

01:54:00.970 --> 01:54:05.279
cardiovascular disease. And yet, People are showing

01:54:05.279 --> 01:54:08.520
up with these – I mean I have four patients who

01:54:08.520 --> 01:54:10.939
have had to get ablations for atrial fibrillation.

01:54:11.000 --> 01:54:12.939
What is an ablation? An ablation is a procedure

01:54:12.939 --> 01:54:14.699
where they stick a catheter up through the femoral

01:54:14.699 --> 01:54:17.500
artery or in the vein and then they burn pieces

01:54:17.500 --> 01:54:22.979
of the heart, specifically around the pulmonary

01:54:22.979 --> 01:54:26.739
veins. And they basically are trying to burn

01:54:26.739 --> 01:54:32.090
away and create – or remove the ability of the

01:54:32.090 --> 01:54:34.069
electrical system to move in this way. So what's

01:54:34.069 --> 01:54:36.550
basically happening with this type of athlete's

01:54:36.550 --> 01:54:39.869
heart is when your heart is constantly being

01:54:39.869 --> 01:54:42.270
exposed to that high stretch, high ejection fraction

01:54:42.270 --> 01:54:44.630
load, you're basically stretching out the electrical

01:54:44.630 --> 01:54:46.050
system because the electrical system of the heart

01:54:46.050 --> 01:54:48.449
runs within its muscles. So as you stretch it

01:54:48.449 --> 01:54:51.229
out, a certain group of people, and we don't

01:54:51.229 --> 01:54:53.149
know why certain people are susceptible and certain

01:54:53.149 --> 01:54:57.159
are not, but they just develop this. This dysrhythmia.

01:54:57.279 --> 01:54:59.560
So you're soldering the motherboard, as it were?

01:54:59.699 --> 01:55:00.960
Yeah, yeah. You can effectively think of that,

01:55:01.039 --> 01:55:04.500
right? You're creating new lines to block the

01:55:04.500 --> 01:55:08.640
connection. Whoa. That's fucking crazy. Yeah,

01:55:08.680 --> 01:55:10.800
so think about it. Someone said once, and I don't

01:55:10.800 --> 01:55:12.279
know if this is true, maybe you would be able

01:55:12.279 --> 01:55:15.920
to have some insight, that there's a concept

01:55:15.920 --> 01:55:19.119
that your entire life you have a certain amount

01:55:19.119 --> 01:55:23.439
of heartbeats. Does that make sense? Oh, no,

01:55:23.500 --> 01:55:25.180
of course. I've heard it many times. I don't

01:55:25.180 --> 01:55:27.939
know if that's correct. That's fucking scary.

01:55:28.060 --> 01:55:34.500
I don't tend to agree with that because you can't

01:55:34.500 --> 01:55:36.560
compare one beat to the other. I mean, you can't,

01:55:36.560 --> 01:55:38.560
you know, it's hard for me to say that, you know.

01:55:39.180 --> 01:55:42.920
An 80 % to 90 % ejection fraction beat under

01:55:42.920 --> 01:55:45.859
incredible load is the same as the beat that

01:55:45.859 --> 01:55:48.920
I'm – like is beat per beat the same as the beat

01:55:48.920 --> 01:55:50.479
I experience when I'm sleeping and my heart's

01:55:50.479 --> 01:55:54.300
beating at 40 beats per minute? I think maybe

01:55:54.300 --> 01:55:57.640
there's a directional truth to that. But I feel

01:55:57.640 --> 01:56:00.020
like when you're talking about human longevity,

01:56:00.380 --> 01:56:03.000
it's a game of inches. And that is like something

01:56:03.000 --> 01:56:04.880
that's probably directionally true within a mile.

01:56:05.619 --> 01:56:08.000
Now, when you're talking about human longevity

01:56:08.000 --> 01:56:10.859
and you're thinking about all these different

01:56:10.859 --> 01:56:13.659
things that you could do to extend, how much

01:56:13.659 --> 01:56:17.819
of that is supplementation? And do you supplement?

01:56:18.060 --> 01:56:21.579
Like are you a person who takes colloidal minerals

01:56:21.579 --> 01:56:25.239
or are you a person that is interested in antioxidants?

01:56:25.479 --> 01:56:30.760
Like what do you do in terms of that? So my view

01:56:30.760 --> 01:56:34.170
on longevity is it's the hardest problem. There

01:56:34.170 --> 01:56:37.810
is. And so you got to have every like I'm agnostic

01:56:37.810 --> 01:56:40.789
about what the approach is. So I want to understand

01:56:40.789 --> 01:56:43.090
everything that you can do with respect to, you

01:56:43.090 --> 01:56:46.710
know, food, drugs, supplements, hormones. And

01:56:46.710 --> 01:56:49.029
to be clear, the only difference between a drug

01:56:49.029 --> 01:56:50.989
and a supplement is one's regulated and one is

01:56:50.989 --> 01:56:53.170
not. But, you know, I have patients that will

01:56:53.170 --> 01:56:55.050
say things like, oh, you know, doctor, I don't

01:56:55.050 --> 01:56:57.789
want to take that drug. I'd rather do it naturally.

01:56:57.989 --> 01:57:00.050
Can I do it? And it's sort of like, well, OK,

01:57:00.170 --> 01:57:01.989
you don't want to take a statin, but you do want

01:57:01.989 --> 01:57:04.470
to take red yeast rice. Well, they both inhibit

01:57:04.470 --> 01:57:07.029
HMG -CoA reductase, the enzyme that catalyzes

01:57:07.029 --> 01:57:09.710
the first step of cholesterol synthesis. You're

01:57:09.710 --> 01:57:12.609
willing to take one that you buy in a drugstore

01:57:12.609 --> 01:57:14.310
that's totally unregulated and you're not willing

01:57:14.310 --> 01:57:16.550
to buy the one that comes from a drug company

01:57:16.550 --> 01:57:18.949
where the FDA has their foot up the ass of the

01:57:18.949 --> 01:57:20.470
company making it to make sure it's perfect.

01:57:20.770 --> 01:57:22.710
That just strikes me as a false equivalent. So

01:57:22.710 --> 01:57:25.449
I only say that to just say like I think everything

01:57:25.449 --> 01:57:27.229
should be on the table and then the question

01:57:27.229 --> 01:57:31.880
should be how do you decide what to do? There

01:57:31.880 --> 01:57:33.300
are absolutely a bunch of supplements that I

01:57:33.300 --> 01:57:36.060
take, but I don't have kind of a one -size -fits

01:57:36.060 --> 01:57:38.020
-all approach to it because I think you've got

01:57:38.020 --> 01:57:40.060
to be able to kind of measure what's going on

01:57:40.060 --> 01:57:42.239
in a person, get a baseline, and figure it out.

01:57:42.319 --> 01:57:43.840
So, you know, I mean, my guess is you've had

01:57:43.840 --> 01:57:45.619
a million people on this show that can talk your

01:57:45.619 --> 01:57:48.119
ears off about, you know, which people should

01:57:48.119 --> 01:57:50.539
take methylated vitamins versus which shouldn't.

01:57:50.539 --> 01:57:53.220
And if you have this MTHFR mutation versus this

01:57:53.220 --> 01:57:55.380
one, should you be taking this versus that? I

01:57:55.380 --> 01:57:58.079
think all those things are valid. Some of the

01:57:58.079 --> 01:58:00.420
stuff that I find even more interesting is actually

01:58:00.420 --> 01:58:02.439
a lot less sexy. And I don't have a good answer

01:58:02.439 --> 01:58:05.399
for it. But, you know, looking at, for example,

01:58:05.520 --> 01:58:08.720
vitamin D levels. So, you know, you see a huge

01:58:08.720 --> 01:58:10.920
disparity in the vitamin D levels people have.

01:58:11.100 --> 01:58:15.199
And it begs the question, do all people run effectively

01:58:15.199 --> 01:58:18.939
at the same vitamin D level? And is that a function

01:58:18.939 --> 01:58:21.659
of not just their own individual, like how much

01:58:21.659 --> 01:58:23.720
sun they're getting, but more importantly, like

01:58:23.720 --> 01:58:26.300
potentially genetically where they're from? So

01:58:26.300 --> 01:58:30.760
I'm starting to feel like people who have northern

01:58:30.760 --> 01:58:35.039
European blood might actually run better at a

01:58:35.039 --> 01:58:38.000
lower vitamin D level than people like me who

01:58:38.000 --> 01:58:41.060
come from places near the equator where maybe

01:58:41.060 --> 01:58:43.180
I just evolved to see more sunlight and have

01:58:43.180 --> 01:58:46.180
more vitamin D. What's your ancestry? My parents

01:58:46.180 --> 01:58:50.779
are both from Egypt. Oh, interesting. So, and

01:58:50.779 --> 01:58:52.520
the range, like when you look at a laboratory

01:58:52.520 --> 01:58:54.520
test, when you check somebody's vitamin D, like

01:58:54.520 --> 01:58:57.500
the range that's offered is 30 to 100 is optimal.

01:58:58.420 --> 01:59:00.420
That's a big range. Yeah, I'm like, that's probably

01:59:00.420 --> 01:59:02.739
not the range. So I personally think the range

01:59:02.739 --> 01:59:05.180
is probably 40 to 60, but I also measure something

01:59:05.180 --> 01:59:07.100
called parathyroid hormone that allows me to

01:59:07.100 --> 01:59:09.279
further titrate that range and stuff like that.

01:59:09.359 --> 01:59:11.000
Well, when you're talking about this, it's really

01:59:11.000 --> 01:59:13.479
obvious, really clear that there's so much data

01:59:13.479 --> 01:59:17.880
to go through. And we're learning this. And I

01:59:17.880 --> 01:59:20.279
don't want to say it's at its infancy, but if

01:59:20.279 --> 01:59:21.840
we look back a thousand years from now, we will

01:59:21.840 --> 01:59:23.920
most certainly say that our understanding of

01:59:23.920 --> 01:59:26.899
this science is at its infancy. Yeah, for sure.

01:59:27.079 --> 01:59:31.760
I mean, the issue is how do you make sense of

01:59:31.760 --> 01:59:33.600
a problem or how do you try to solve a problem

01:59:33.600 --> 01:59:36.079
which is unsolvable? And the reason I say that

01:59:36.079 --> 01:59:41.180
is the following. You know, you have what I call

01:59:41.180 --> 01:59:44.720
kind of the medicine 1 .0 world, which was. I

01:59:44.720 --> 01:59:46.960
define that as everything that took place before

01:59:46.960 --> 01:59:50.340
Francis Bacon. You can probably tell me when

01:59:50.340 --> 01:59:52.159
that was. I'm going to guess Francis Bacon is

01:59:52.159 --> 01:59:56.399
like 1650 to 1670 or something like that. But

01:59:56.399 --> 01:59:59.079
that was basically the first person to come along

01:59:59.079 --> 02:00:02.460
and codify the scientific method. So anything

02:00:02.460 --> 02:00:04.659
that came along before the scientific method

02:00:04.659 --> 02:00:08.460
may have been correct, meaning there were things

02:00:08.460 --> 02:00:10.739
that were certainly done back then that proved

02:00:10.739 --> 02:00:14.439
helpful. they weren't grounded in a principle

02:00:14.439 --> 02:00:17.899
of science. In other words, even a blind squirrel

02:00:17.899 --> 02:00:21.300
is going to find nuts sometimes. And then we

02:00:21.300 --> 02:00:26.000
basically, following the elucidation of a scientific

02:00:26.000 --> 02:00:28.659
method, the development of statistics to actually

02:00:28.659 --> 02:00:31.659
make sense of data, we then got into the sweet

02:00:31.659 --> 02:00:33.739
spot where I think we are now, which is medicine

02:00:33.739 --> 02:00:37.140
2 .0. And to me, medicine 2 .0 is really good

02:00:37.140 --> 02:00:39.899
at solving problems that are amenable to relatively

02:00:39.899 --> 02:00:42.659
short, simple clinical trials. And there has

02:00:42.659 --> 02:00:46.399
been no better example in this space than infectious

02:00:46.399 --> 02:00:50.560
diseases. So like if you think about the unbelievable

02:00:50.560 --> 02:00:53.640
improvement in human longevity that has come

02:00:53.640 --> 02:00:58.140
from antibiotics, antiviral therapy for HIV.

02:00:58.399 --> 02:01:00.800
I mean, remember 30 years ago, HIV was a lethal.

02:01:02.090 --> 02:01:04.250
No questions asked lethal condition. Today, it's

02:01:04.250 --> 02:01:06.590
a chronic disease. For virtually every patient

02:01:06.590 --> 02:01:08.529
with HIV, it's a chronic disease today, meaning

02:01:08.529 --> 02:01:13.029
you will die with HIV, not from HIV. That's almost

02:01:13.029 --> 02:01:16.189
hard to fathom when you consider how shitty we

02:01:16.189 --> 02:01:18.409
are at addressing other chronic diseases like

02:01:18.409 --> 02:01:21.489
heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's disease. So

02:01:21.489 --> 02:01:25.689
the problem is if you want to know the answer.

02:01:26.440 --> 02:01:29.079
should I eat this way or that way? Should I exercise

02:01:29.079 --> 02:01:30.680
this way or that way? Should I take this drug

02:01:30.680 --> 02:01:32.460
or that drug or this supplement or that supplement

02:01:32.460 --> 02:01:35.739
to live longer? We can never know the answer

02:01:35.739 --> 02:01:38.260
in humans because there is no clinical trial

02:01:38.260 --> 02:01:40.560
that can answer that question. And we can do

02:01:40.560 --> 02:01:42.859
that experiment in everything that's not human,

02:01:42.979 --> 02:01:45.119
but we've already learned the hard way that what

02:01:45.119 --> 02:01:47.899
happens in not humans doesn't necessarily extrapolate

02:01:47.899 --> 02:01:51.310
to humans. And we can do things to be slicker

02:01:51.310 --> 02:01:53.909
about it. When you study rhesus monkeys for 20

02:01:53.909 --> 02:01:56.369
years, it's certainly more interesting than studying

02:01:56.369 --> 02:02:00.229
mice for one year. But in the end, they're still

02:02:00.229 --> 02:02:02.310
animals in captivity. They're still not in the

02:02:02.310 --> 02:02:04.949
same environment and all these things. So my

02:02:04.949 --> 02:02:07.609
view on this topic is the only way to go to this

02:02:07.609 --> 02:02:10.250
kind of medicine 3 .0 is you've got to have kind

02:02:10.250 --> 02:02:12.670
of a strategy around how you think about it.

02:02:14.119 --> 02:02:17.500
So in many ways, that's what I spend most of

02:02:17.500 --> 02:02:21.460
my time dealing with is what is a strategy for

02:02:21.460 --> 02:02:25.319
longevity that becomes a scaffolding upon which

02:02:25.319 --> 02:02:28.220
you anchor every new piece of data? Because,

02:02:28.279 --> 02:02:31.000
I mean, I know things today from a data standpoint

02:02:31.000 --> 02:02:32.819
I didn't know 10 years ago. And to your point,

02:02:32.880 --> 02:02:34.979
even in five years, we'll look back at stuff

02:02:34.979 --> 02:02:36.539
we're doing today and think, God, we have more

02:02:36.539 --> 02:02:40.340
data. Is that still the right thing to do? And

02:02:40.340 --> 02:02:42.720
so that strategy to me is sort of fundamentally

02:02:42.720 --> 02:02:45.939
based on three bodies of literature. And the

02:02:45.939 --> 02:02:48.319
first is like what did we learn from centenarians?

02:02:48.359 --> 02:02:52.800
So the people who naturally live to 100, they

02:02:52.800 --> 02:02:54.619
have the advantage or that body of literature

02:02:54.619 --> 02:02:57.739
has the advantage of being based on humans. It

02:02:57.739 --> 02:02:59.699
has the disadvantage of it not being experimental.

02:02:59.880 --> 02:03:04.399
So we don't know what cause and effect was. And

02:03:04.399 --> 02:03:05.979
then secondly, if you look at all of the animal

02:03:05.979 --> 02:03:07.920
literature or non -human literature where you

02:03:07.920 --> 02:03:10.100
can actually do the experiments, what's common

02:03:10.100 --> 02:03:12.359
there? And then if you look at the underlying

02:03:12.359 --> 02:03:16.479
molecular mechanisms. So I feel like if you tie

02:03:16.479 --> 02:03:19.279
those three together, you come up with a general

02:03:19.279 --> 02:03:21.399
scaffolding for what it means to live longer

02:03:21.399 --> 02:03:27.390
and live healthier. Then we can try. to look

02:03:27.390 --> 02:03:29.689
at one thing at a time and say, hey, vitamin

02:03:29.689 --> 02:03:33.569
D, yay or nay, antioxidant, yay or nay. So when

02:03:33.569 --> 02:03:37.750
you're, it's got to be very time consuming for

02:03:37.750 --> 02:03:39.649
you. I have a research team. I mean, that's when

02:03:39.649 --> 02:03:42.689
I started this practice about three years ago,

02:03:42.729 --> 02:03:46.810
I realized like I was losing the battle. My ability

02:03:46.810 --> 02:03:48.829
to sit down and read scientific papers was like

02:03:48.829 --> 02:03:52.250
shrinking. Yeah. So I hired an analyst. He had

02:03:52.250 --> 02:03:54.430
worked with me in the past. He was amazing. I

02:03:54.430 --> 02:03:56.970
brought him over full time to do this, then another

02:03:56.970 --> 02:03:58.630
one, then another. I mean, now I have four full

02:03:58.630 --> 02:04:02.710
time analysts. And I mean, as this practice grows

02:04:02.710 --> 02:04:05.529
and or whatever, I have the revenue to justify

02:04:05.529 --> 02:04:07.489
it. Like I'll have 10 analysts one day in this

02:04:07.489 --> 02:04:09.890
practice. And even that's not enough. I mean,

02:04:09.909 --> 02:04:13.550
approximately 100 ,000 papers are published every

02:04:13.550 --> 02:04:16.609
month on PubMed. Jesus Christ. So I forget. I

02:04:16.609 --> 02:04:17.930
did the math on that once. I think it's like.

02:04:18.430 --> 02:04:20.789
three papers a minute. It's pretty stunning when

02:04:20.789 --> 02:04:22.409
you think about the amount of human achievement

02:04:22.409 --> 02:04:24.409
that we've experienced just in our lifetime in

02:04:24.409 --> 02:04:27.329
that regard, like how many people are working

02:04:27.329 --> 02:04:30.109
on understanding just the mechanisms of the human

02:04:30.109 --> 02:04:32.850
body. And this data is just piling up as we speak.

02:04:32.930 --> 02:04:34.590
Yeah. But the problem is the signal to noise

02:04:34.590 --> 02:04:39.079
ratio is almost zero. So I would say. conservatively

02:04:39.079 --> 02:04:42.600
90%, if not 99 % of that is completely useless.

02:04:42.880 --> 02:04:46.880
Really? Absolutely. I actually wrote about this

02:04:46.880 --> 02:04:51.300
once. So when a paper comes out, if it is never

02:04:51.300 --> 02:04:54.619
cited again, meaning for the remainder of time,

02:04:54.699 --> 02:04:57.039
no one ever even goes back to reference that

02:04:57.039 --> 02:04:58.899
paper, you could probably make the case that

02:04:58.899 --> 02:05:01.859
that paper is not relevant. And if you then further

02:05:01.859 --> 02:05:05.500
strip out auto citations, Meaning the only time

02:05:05.500 --> 02:05:07.239
it's ever cited is when the author then goes

02:05:07.239 --> 02:05:10.619
back and cites his or her own paper. Something

02:05:10.619 --> 02:05:15.720
like 70 or 80 percent of papers never get cited

02:05:15.720 --> 02:05:18.659
outside of an auto citation again. Is this because

02:05:18.659 --> 02:05:20.659
they're not relevant or is it possible to get

02:05:20.659 --> 02:05:22.819
lost in the shuffle? Like some of them might

02:05:22.819 --> 02:05:25.100
be worth something? I mean that's probably possible,

02:05:25.180 --> 02:05:27.579
but I would bet it is much, much more the former

02:05:27.579 --> 02:05:31.100
than the latter. And then on top of it, a lot

02:05:31.100 --> 02:05:33.180
of stuff comes out and then years later you realize

02:05:33.180 --> 02:05:36.729
it was wrong. You know, or it was and that's

02:05:36.729 --> 02:05:38.550
more often the case that it was wrong through

02:05:38.550 --> 02:05:40.729
an honest mistake than wrong through a dishonest

02:05:40.729 --> 02:05:42.329
mistake. But there's still a lot of wrong through

02:05:42.329 --> 02:05:44.189
dishonest mistake stuff's coming out there as

02:05:44.189 --> 02:05:46.789
well. So how much of this data is forcing you

02:05:46.789 --> 02:05:50.489
or causing you to alter your own patterns? Well,

02:05:50.630 --> 02:05:54.329
we believe internally that probably 100 papers

02:05:54.329 --> 02:05:57.989
a month enter the literature that are relevant

02:05:57.989 --> 02:06:01.090
to what we do. Meaning, I mean, some of the literature

02:06:01.090 --> 02:06:02.609
that comes out like, you know, the rheumatology

02:06:02.609 --> 02:06:05.140
literature. Might be relevant to them, but that's

02:06:05.140 --> 02:06:06.720
not what I do. Even that's crazy. That's more

02:06:06.720 --> 02:06:09.939
than three a day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's

02:06:09.939 --> 02:06:12.439
why when I say I want 10 analysts, you see why.

02:06:13.100 --> 02:06:16.159
Because first of all, it's finding those papers

02:06:16.159 --> 02:06:18.500
too. So how do you do that? Well, we subscribe

02:06:18.500 --> 02:06:21.920
to a whole bunch of services that basically pre

02:06:21.920 --> 02:06:25.560
-filter a bunch of shit for us. And then we have

02:06:25.560 --> 02:06:27.899
a system where we go about kind of... pulling

02:06:27.899 --> 02:06:30.479
that stuff so you get those three a day and then

02:06:30.479 --> 02:06:32.800
they bring them to you how do you have the time

02:06:32.800 --> 02:06:35.199
no so that's the thing and it's funny you say

02:06:35.199 --> 02:06:37.000
that I was like literally as I was driving here

02:06:37.000 --> 02:06:38.340
today I was talking to a buddy of mine and I

02:06:38.340 --> 02:06:40.619
was like dude I'm the fucking bottleneck and

02:06:40.619 --> 02:06:43.399
I hate it like I'm now the bottleneck because

02:06:43.399 --> 02:06:46.880
the analysts are now churning out stuff faster

02:06:46.880 --> 02:06:50.390
than I can even provide ancillary feedback. Because

02:06:50.390 --> 02:06:53.350
my job is like, you know, you hire great people

02:06:53.350 --> 02:06:55.989
who are smarter than you and like, you just guide

02:06:55.989 --> 02:06:57.210
them. You just point them in the right direction.

02:06:57.449 --> 02:07:02.789
So what we mostly do is create programs where

02:07:02.789 --> 02:07:04.710
we're going out and looking for new knowledge.

02:07:04.909 --> 02:07:07.270
So for example, one of the questions that is

02:07:07.270 --> 02:07:08.890
tormenting me right now, because I still don't

02:07:08.890 --> 02:07:11.210
know the answer is, is there any benefit to taking

02:07:11.210 --> 02:07:13.329
human growth hormone? from a longevity perspective,

02:07:13.489 --> 02:07:15.609
there's clearly a performance benefit. Growth

02:07:15.609 --> 02:07:17.329
hormone is probably the single most abused drug

02:07:17.329 --> 02:07:19.289
in all of sports. There's no question about that.

02:07:19.689 --> 02:07:23.229
But is there a way to take it where it makes

02:07:23.229 --> 02:07:25.149
you live longer? I've never prescribed growth

02:07:25.149 --> 02:07:28.170
hormone to a patient because frankly, I'm not

02:07:28.170 --> 02:07:29.949
yet confident that I know the answer to that

02:07:29.949 --> 02:07:32.630
question, but I feel like it's worth knowing,

02:07:32.750 --> 02:07:34.729
right? Because I can certainly make a teleologic

02:07:34.729 --> 02:07:36.890
argument for why growth hormone could be helpful,

02:07:37.050 --> 02:07:39.090
but I can also make a teleologic argument for

02:07:39.090 --> 02:07:43.199
why it could be harmful. And so Like many things,

02:07:43.439 --> 02:07:46.020
your knee -jerk reaction to something can often

02:07:46.020 --> 02:07:48.279
be wrong. And my knee -jerk reaction to growth

02:07:48.279 --> 02:07:50.500
hormone has historically been causes cancer.

02:07:51.619 --> 02:07:53.760
Because why? Well, growth hormone tells your

02:07:53.760 --> 02:07:56.420
liver to make IGF, insulin -like growth factor,

02:07:56.539 --> 02:07:59.840
and two -thirds of tumors seem to thrive on IGF.

02:08:00.180 --> 02:08:02.899
So ostensibly, you would think, well, growth

02:08:02.899 --> 02:08:05.119
hormone can't be right. But then one of my analysts,

02:08:05.239 --> 02:08:07.539
Bob Kaplan, pointed out to me a year ago, he's

02:08:07.539 --> 02:08:08.539
like, you know, Peter, I've been thinking about

02:08:08.539 --> 02:08:11.119
this. And he's like, Given how ubiquitous growth

02:08:11.119 --> 02:08:13.619
hormone is in sports and how long it's been ubiquitous

02:08:13.619 --> 02:08:16.880
in sports, like, I mean, this was the drug that

02:08:16.880 --> 02:08:20.180
turned around US Olympic athletes in the late

02:08:20.180 --> 02:08:23.159
70s, early 80s. He's like, where's the body count?

02:08:23.880 --> 02:08:26.579
Like, where are all of these people dying of

02:08:26.579 --> 02:08:29.000
cancer from all these years of staggering growth

02:08:29.000 --> 02:08:33.020
hormone use? We don't really see it. When we

02:08:33.020 --> 02:08:35.039
went back and looked at literature, I mean, we

02:08:35.039 --> 02:08:38.529
found that The data on growth hormone and IGF

02:08:38.529 --> 02:08:40.930
are not nearly as straightforward as people have

02:08:40.930 --> 02:08:43.710
made it out to be. In fact, there's – I mean,

02:08:43.729 --> 02:08:45.350
I could draw it actually for you. Not that anyone

02:08:45.350 --> 02:08:46.750
will necessarily see this, but at least you'll

02:08:46.750 --> 02:08:50.310
see what I'm talking about. If this is percentile,

02:08:50.310 --> 02:08:57.289
so higher, and this is IGF level, right? So IGF

02:08:57.289 --> 02:08:59.449
level. Most people are listening to this. Well,

02:08:59.470 --> 02:09:01.250
actually, it's getting close to 50 -50. We were

02:09:01.250 --> 02:09:03.819
actually talking about that before, yeah. The

02:09:03.819 --> 02:09:09.399
overall mortality curve for IGF and growth hormone

02:09:09.399 --> 02:09:15.119
is like a J curve, meaning low IGFs, really high

02:09:15.119 --> 02:09:19.560
mortality. Yes, as you go from about the 70th

02:09:19.560 --> 02:09:22.119
or 80th percentile up to the 90th percentile,

02:09:22.140 --> 02:09:25.020
there's a slight increase in mortality. But this

02:09:25.020 --> 02:09:26.899
is not what you would think of. Like you would

02:09:26.899 --> 02:09:28.460
sort of, if you were just reading the headlines,

02:09:28.659 --> 02:09:30.420
you would think it looks like this. Right. So

02:09:30.420 --> 02:09:33.529
there's a sweet spot. Not only that, this is

02:09:33.529 --> 02:09:35.750
overall mortality. What if you parse this out

02:09:35.750 --> 02:09:37.850
by disease? Well, that's when it gets really

02:09:37.850 --> 02:09:40.829
interesting. So cancer's curve looks like this.

02:09:42.390 --> 02:09:46.029
Very similar. Yes. But Alzheimer's curve looks

02:09:46.029 --> 02:09:50.329
like this. Heart disease curve looks like this.

02:09:52.240 --> 02:09:54.060
So describe that to people that are listening.

02:09:54.079 --> 02:09:55.920
Well, so what that means is, so for example,

02:09:56.020 --> 02:09:58.000
Alzheimer's disease and heart disease have an

02:09:58.000 --> 02:10:02.100
almost monotonic reduction in risk as IGF gets

02:10:02.100 --> 02:10:04.520
higher and higher and higher. It's only cancer

02:10:04.520 --> 02:10:07.279
that seems to have that uptick where risk starts

02:10:07.279 --> 02:10:10.079
to actually rise once you cross past the, call

02:10:10.079 --> 02:10:13.279
it 70th percentile. And so when you integrate

02:10:13.279 --> 02:10:15.159
all of these curves together, that's why you

02:10:15.159 --> 02:10:19.100
see this slight uptick. Now, again, this is epidemiology.

02:10:19.180 --> 02:10:20.880
So one has to take this with a grain of salt,

02:10:20.920 --> 02:10:24.149
but this is, To me, when I saw this graph, which

02:10:24.149 --> 02:10:26.510
Bob put together, I don't know, a while ago,

02:10:26.630 --> 02:10:29.289
I was like, wait a minute. This doesn't jive

02:10:29.289 --> 02:10:31.930
with my preconceived notion of like growth hormone

02:10:31.930 --> 02:10:34.510
is bad. This warrants way further exploration.

02:10:35.500 --> 02:10:37.840
And so what that basically turned into is now

02:10:37.840 --> 02:10:40.779
an enormous internal project that will take us

02:10:40.779 --> 02:10:43.779
probably a year to complete and will constantly

02:10:43.779 --> 02:10:45.899
be updated. Like we did this already with testosterone

02:10:45.899 --> 02:10:48.500
two years ago. We put together like a 40 -page

02:10:48.500 --> 02:10:51.359
white paper on the topic. And then at least once

02:10:51.359 --> 02:10:53.859
every two weeks, it gets updated every time a

02:10:53.859 --> 02:10:56.520
new paper comes out, basically asking the question

02:10:56.520 --> 02:10:58.119
like, is testosterone replacement beneficial

02:10:58.119 --> 02:11:00.460
or harmful? And under what situations should

02:11:00.460 --> 02:11:03.159
it be considered versus not? And again, the goal

02:11:03.159 --> 02:11:06.220
is to do this unemotionally. And that's hard

02:11:06.220 --> 02:11:10.000
to do. Sure. Because for reasons I'm not entirely

02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:12.800
clear on, basically everyone's kind of just emotional

02:11:12.800 --> 02:11:14.739
about this stuff. Well, they're emotional about

02:11:14.739 --> 02:11:16.960
steroids because of all the press about Barry

02:11:16.960 --> 02:11:20.239
Bonds and, you know, all the different baseball

02:11:20.239 --> 02:11:22.819
players. But why do you think that is? Cheating.

02:11:22.920 --> 02:11:25.579
Is it the cheating aspect of it? Yes. 100%. Yeah.

02:11:26.079 --> 02:11:28.460
Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is. I think

02:11:28.460 --> 02:11:31.699
people consider taking any kind of hormone, whether

02:11:31.699 --> 02:11:34.380
it's growth hormone or testosterone, as cheating.

02:11:34.760 --> 02:11:37.020
Even if you're talking about older people that

02:11:37.020 --> 02:11:40.819
take it. Like, I was looking at one of those

02:11:40.819 --> 02:11:42.680
ads. You know, they have those ads for hormone

02:11:42.680 --> 02:11:44.960
replacement. This really old -looking guy. Oh,

02:11:44.960 --> 02:11:46.800
yeah, Jeffrey Life, I think is his name. Dr.

02:11:46.979 --> 02:11:50.140
Life. He's jacked. I mean, he's got a full six

02:11:50.140 --> 02:11:51.460
-pack. He's out of control. He's built like a

02:11:51.460 --> 02:11:55.000
gorilla. And my friend was like, God, that can't

02:11:55.000 --> 02:11:56.869
be healthy. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking

02:11:56.869 --> 02:11:59.670
about? Look at him. I go, what do you think a

02:11:59.670 --> 02:12:01.649
70 -year -old dude is supposed to look like?

02:12:01.750 --> 02:12:03.770
They're supposed to be knocking on death's door.

02:12:03.909 --> 02:12:05.890
That guy looks like he could fuck his way through

02:12:05.890 --> 02:12:08.470
a building full of teenage girls. You know, he's

02:12:08.470 --> 02:12:11.090
like, I shouldn't say teenage, 20 -year -old,

02:12:11.109 --> 02:12:16.970
21. Or 19. He looks like a man who's really fit

02:12:16.970 --> 02:12:20.170
and healthy with an old guy's head. Yeah. It's

02:12:20.170 --> 02:12:22.890
weird. And I was like, you know, if it's not

02:12:22.890 --> 02:12:25.869
healthy, then what is it? If that's not healthy,

02:12:25.949 --> 02:12:27.369
like, oh, he's going to die of cancer. He's going

02:12:27.369 --> 02:12:29.210
to die of a heart attack. He's going to die,

02:12:29.430 --> 02:12:32.510
period. If you look at his head, how much time

02:12:32.510 --> 02:12:35.890
would you give him? If I gave you a bet, okay,

02:12:36.130 --> 02:12:39.729
we have a million -dollar bet, give you an over

02:12:39.729 --> 02:12:42.550
-under of 10 years, how many years are you going

02:12:42.550 --> 02:12:44.550
to give this guy? Are you going to give him 20?

02:12:45.050 --> 02:12:46.149
You're going to give him 30? Wait, wait, wait.

02:12:46.210 --> 02:12:48.050
You're moving the over -under. You said I had

02:12:48.050 --> 02:12:52.369
a 10 -year window on that. Right. I'll take over

02:12:52.369 --> 02:12:57.289
on the 10 -year. Okay. How many years do you

02:12:57.289 --> 02:12:59.670
give him? Impossible to know. Am I allowed to

02:12:59.670 --> 02:13:02.989
talk to him first? No. No fucking clue. You're

02:13:02.989 --> 02:13:04.930
looking at a magazine, right? No, no, no. I can't

02:13:04.930 --> 02:13:06.090
because I've got to know his family history.

02:13:06.229 --> 02:13:08.449
I mean, honestly. Of course. Your parents will

02:13:08.449 --> 02:13:10.390
tell me more about how long you'll live than...

02:13:11.000 --> 02:13:14.159
What you look like. But 70 in America is basically

02:13:14.159 --> 02:13:16.939
death's door. No, I think today. Well, so this

02:13:16.939 --> 02:13:18.460
is a complicated question, actually, which is

02:13:18.460 --> 02:13:21.180
actually prompts another analysis. It's in the

02:13:21.180 --> 02:13:24.140
10 year range. Yeah, no. So it depends how you

02:13:24.140 --> 02:13:27.000
ask the question. So the question is, what is

02:13:27.000 --> 02:13:29.020
the average life expectancy of a man and a woman

02:13:29.020 --> 02:13:31.239
today in the United States? And I mean, someone's

02:13:31.239 --> 02:13:33.220
going to correct me. So I feel like it doesn't

02:13:33.220 --> 02:13:36.260
matter what I say. I think it's 79 and 81, respectively.

02:13:36.750 --> 02:13:39.350
for a man and a woman today. But the more interesting

02:13:39.350 --> 02:13:42.130
question is this one, which is, so what year

02:13:42.130 --> 02:13:47.270
were you born? 67. Okay. So in 1967, what was

02:13:47.270 --> 02:13:49.750
the annual life expectancy or the average life

02:13:49.750 --> 02:13:51.649
expectancy of a man and a woman? And we could

02:13:51.649 --> 02:13:53.229
look that up, but I'm guessing it would have

02:13:53.229 --> 02:13:55.529
been, let's see, life expectancy has been going

02:13:55.529 --> 02:13:58.109
up at 0 .3 to 0 .6 % per year. We could back

02:13:58.109 --> 02:14:00.390
out that CAGR. And let's just say for shits and

02:14:00.390 --> 02:14:05.270
giggles, like the number was 69 or 73 or something

02:14:05.270 --> 02:14:08.279
like that. I promise you, you were going to live

02:14:08.279 --> 02:14:11.460
longer than that. What was it? 67. 67. All right.

02:14:11.720 --> 02:14:14.640
So would I take the bet that you're going to

02:14:14.640 --> 02:14:16.819
live longer than 67, even though that was the

02:14:16.819 --> 02:14:19.239
median life expectancy the year you were born?

02:14:19.539 --> 02:14:22.579
Hell yeah. I'll take that all day long. And so

02:14:22.579 --> 02:14:25.319
what we're actually putting, this is just a dumb

02:14:25.319 --> 02:14:27.020
analysis. I don't even know why we're doing this.

02:14:27.039 --> 02:14:29.039
Sometimes we just do dumb shit that has no bearing.

02:14:29.140 --> 02:14:32.260
But what I want to do is create a graph of actual

02:14:32.260 --> 02:14:36.130
life expectancy. as realized versus projected

02:14:36.130 --> 02:14:39.210
life expectancy in the year of birth. My hypothesis

02:14:39.210 --> 02:14:42.250
is that is always a positive number. What I want

02:14:42.250 --> 02:14:44.770
to know is what's the derivative on it? Is it

02:14:44.770 --> 02:14:49.590
increasing or decreasing? So I think that science

02:14:49.590 --> 02:14:54.590
is accelerating our longevity. And that's one

02:14:54.590 --> 02:14:57.649
of my proof points is that we are constantly

02:14:57.649 --> 02:15:01.229
underestimating how long we can live. Now, on

02:15:01.229 --> 02:15:03.819
the other end of that spectrum, I am not one

02:15:03.819 --> 02:15:06.539
of these futurists who thinks like there's immortality

02:15:06.539 --> 02:15:10.720
out there. You know, I would be if right now

02:15:10.720 --> 02:15:12.659
I could sign a piece of paper that would say,

02:15:12.699 --> 02:15:14.500
Peter, are you willing to commit to a lifespan

02:15:14.500 --> 02:15:16.819
right now? So you're willing to acknowledge that

02:15:16.819 --> 02:15:18.520
if there's some major breakthrough, you'll miss

02:15:18.520 --> 02:15:20.920
out on it. But I guarantee you this duration.

02:15:21.119 --> 02:15:22.979
Like, what would you take right now? If I said,

02:15:23.000 --> 02:15:26.399
Joe, you can be 100. And be fully functional

02:15:26.399 --> 02:15:28.899
at 100. So when you're 100 – So you could run

02:15:28.899 --> 02:15:32.380
at 100. Yeah. You're going to be like a fit 60

02:15:32.380 --> 02:15:34.760
-year -old at 100. So you're still working out.

02:15:34.899 --> 02:15:37.579
You're still shooting. Pretty good. Yeah. Would

02:15:37.579 --> 02:15:40.420
you take it? Nope. In other words, you're willing

02:15:40.420 --> 02:15:42.560
to bet that by the time we get there – Yeah,

02:15:42.579 --> 02:15:44.460
because when it's over, it's over anyway. Yeah.

02:15:44.539 --> 02:15:48.939
Yeah. So, I mean, to me, I think most people

02:15:48.939 --> 02:15:52.039
have a greater sense of confidence about where

02:15:52.039 --> 02:15:55.390
technology goes. I think there really only been

02:15:55.390 --> 02:15:57.430
a handful of step function changes in longevity.

02:15:57.810 --> 02:16:01.189
So, you know, the reduction of infant mortality

02:16:01.189 --> 02:16:03.710
was huge. Like once we actually figured out how

02:16:03.710 --> 02:16:05.850
the fuck to deliver babies and not kill moms,

02:16:06.050 --> 02:16:09.529
like that was a big deal. That had a step function

02:16:09.529 --> 02:16:12.729
improvement in human longevity. The next one

02:16:12.729 --> 02:16:14.970
was really sanitation. Like once we figured out

02:16:14.970 --> 02:16:18.609
that like don't shit where you drink, huge improvement

02:16:18.609 --> 02:16:20.689
in human mortality. Isn't that hilarious? It's

02:16:20.689 --> 02:16:22.369
amazing, right? We take that shit for granted

02:16:22.369 --> 02:16:25.279
now, right? And then the third one was basically

02:16:25.279 --> 02:16:28.260
germ theory, you know, starting with Lister and

02:16:28.260 --> 02:16:29.819
going all the way to Fleming when we figured

02:16:29.819 --> 02:16:35.200
out like, you know, if you cut open a cadaver

02:16:35.200 --> 02:16:38.399
and then go and deliver a baby, that's bad because

02:16:38.399 --> 02:16:40.399
there are these microscopic things that none

02:16:40.399 --> 02:16:42.639
of us anticipate, right? We haven't had a step

02:16:42.639 --> 02:16:44.879
function improvement in mortality in nearly 100

02:16:44.879 --> 02:16:49.760
years. So what's next? Now, I think there are

02:16:49.760 --> 02:16:53.020
a couple of potentials for that. But what I don't

02:16:53.020 --> 02:16:54.600
know is if like they're going to happen in my

02:16:54.600 --> 02:16:56.840
lifetime or in your lifetime. But I want to buy

02:16:56.840 --> 02:16:59.879
the optionality to stick around for it by doing

02:16:59.879 --> 02:17:02.319
all this incremental little shit. Well, these

02:17:02.319 --> 02:17:06.459
three plus papers a day, the options are increasing.

02:17:07.280 --> 02:17:11.000
It just seems to me that there's a trend, right?

02:17:11.100 --> 02:17:13.180
The trend is, as you're saying, there is an increase

02:17:13.180 --> 02:17:15.700
of longevity, but it's not a huge increase. Right.

02:17:16.479 --> 02:17:20.030
But our understanding of the human body is. That

02:17:20.030 --> 02:17:24.389
seems to be pretty radically improving, especially

02:17:24.389 --> 02:17:26.510
in terms of nutrition, nutritional absorption,

02:17:26.709 --> 02:17:30.329
the mechanisms behind nutrition. On some level,

02:17:30.350 --> 02:17:32.309
yeah. On some level, I still feel like we're

02:17:32.309 --> 02:17:34.569
in the dark ages. Right, because you recognize

02:17:34.569 --> 02:17:37.709
the potential. Well, no, because I think I'm

02:17:37.709 --> 02:17:40.309
just humbled by how hard it is to actually take

02:17:40.309 --> 02:17:46.090
care of people. I'm about as good a responder

02:17:46.090 --> 02:17:47.809
as you're going to have to carbohydrate reduction.

02:17:49.100 --> 02:17:50.979
Doing something as simple as just not eating

02:17:50.979 --> 02:17:53.020
carbs and not eating sugar, like, completely

02:17:53.020 --> 02:17:56.819
changed my health. I mean, at 40, if you compare

02:17:56.819 --> 02:17:59.340
the 40 -year -old me to the 30 -year -old me,

02:17:59.500 --> 02:18:03.159
like, the 40 -year -old is, like, literally twice

02:18:03.159 --> 02:18:05.819
as healthy as the 30 -year -old me. And that

02:18:05.819 --> 02:18:08.420
was through something as simple, conceptually

02:18:08.420 --> 02:18:11.219
simple, as making this radical dietary shift.

02:18:11.500 --> 02:18:13.420
And by what standards are you saying that you're

02:18:13.420 --> 02:18:15.579
twice as healthy at 40 than 30? How old are you

02:18:15.579 --> 02:18:19.940
now? 45. But what is the... I mean, again, I'm

02:18:19.940 --> 02:18:22.020
speaking a bit glibly. How you feel, your blood

02:18:22.020 --> 02:18:23.239
levels. Well, even let's just talk objective.

02:18:23.520 --> 02:18:25.280
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like what would be my lipid

02:18:25.280 --> 02:18:26.899
levels? What would be my triglyceride levels?

02:18:27.180 --> 02:18:30.700
How much body fat do I have? What's my VO2 max?

02:18:31.000 --> 02:18:33.399
Like by all of those metrics, like everything

02:18:33.399 --> 02:18:38.219
was just so much better at 40. I mean, and so,

02:18:38.479 --> 02:18:42.639
but yet I've seen a lot of patients where you

02:18:42.639 --> 02:18:44.420
take the carbs out of their diet, doesn't matter.

02:18:44.760 --> 02:18:48.799
You make them fast. You do this. You do the other

02:18:48.799 --> 02:18:51.020
thing. You just can't fix some of the underlying

02:18:51.020 --> 02:18:53.559
metabolic problems. Like what kind of problems?

02:18:54.000 --> 02:18:58.159
No, I think some people are just so insulin resistant

02:18:58.159 --> 02:19:00.860
that it becomes really hard to fix them without

02:19:00.860 --> 02:19:04.319
doing draconian stuff. I mean I have one patient

02:19:04.319 --> 02:19:07.120
who is really now I think going to in many ways

02:19:07.120 --> 02:19:09.840
become the poster child for – he's definitely

02:19:09.840 --> 02:19:12.239
the toughest case I've ever had and why he's

02:19:12.239 --> 02:19:15.450
such an amazing guy is – He was actually able

02:19:15.450 --> 02:19:17.709
to do something that's really hard to do, which

02:19:17.709 --> 02:19:20.790
is stick to something with complete blind faith

02:19:20.790 --> 02:19:23.569
in me, even when it didn't feel good, even when

02:19:23.569 --> 02:19:25.370
I knew it would take a long time to see the results.

02:19:25.850 --> 02:19:32.149
So he's probably 5 '8", weighs 235 at the start.

02:19:32.229 --> 02:19:35.909
So 5 '8", 235, metabolic syndrome, huge amount

02:19:35.909 --> 02:19:39.870
of fatty liver disease. Not the typical patient

02:19:39.870 --> 02:19:41.450
in my practice. Most of my patients are kind

02:19:41.450 --> 02:19:43.819
of young, healthy people who want to like. you

02:19:43.819 --> 02:19:47.399
know, want this immortality thing. But this is

02:19:47.399 --> 02:19:50.700
someone who doesn't fit that description, probably

02:19:50.700 --> 02:19:54.579
70 years old on like, you know, four drugs for

02:19:54.579 --> 02:19:57.219
blood pressure. That's very heavy for a seven

02:19:57.219 --> 02:19:59.639
-year -old. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Oh, and he just

02:19:59.639 --> 02:20:01.620
had a hip replacement. He basically couldn't

02:20:01.620 --> 02:20:05.399
walk. You know, everything was, and we had tried

02:20:05.399 --> 02:20:07.299
carbohydrate restricting him before. It just

02:20:07.299 --> 02:20:09.260
didn't work. And part of it was, I don't know

02:20:09.260 --> 02:20:10.819
how he just, it was hard for him to stick to

02:20:10.819 --> 02:20:12.200
it and blah, blah, blah. So I just said to him,

02:20:12.219 --> 02:20:14.620
look, man, I want to try something completely

02:20:14.620 --> 02:20:18.540
fucking extreme, and I want to try it for six

02:20:18.540 --> 02:20:23.040
months. Every five days, pardon me, every month,

02:20:23.040 --> 02:20:24.959
you're going to spend the first five days eating

02:20:24.959 --> 02:20:28.659
500 calories a day of a ketogenic diet, and it's

02:20:28.659 --> 02:20:30.540
basically just going to be like vegetables, oil.

02:20:30.879 --> 02:20:33.120
You're basically eating a bunch of salad. And

02:20:33.120 --> 02:20:34.899
then for the next 25 days, you're going to do

02:20:34.899 --> 02:20:37.420
a time -restricted ketogenic diet where you're

02:20:37.420 --> 02:20:39.139
only going to eat in that eight -hour window.

02:20:40.479 --> 02:20:42.200
And then you're going to repeat that every month

02:20:42.200 --> 02:20:45.200
for six months. And he was like, I won't be able

02:20:45.200 --> 02:20:47.440
to do it. And I was like, I know, I know. It

02:20:47.440 --> 02:20:50.180
seems crazy. I think you will be able to do it.

02:20:50.579 --> 02:20:52.440
Because remember, all that time that you're not

02:20:52.440 --> 02:20:54.760
eating, your body's going to have to start eating

02:20:54.760 --> 02:20:59.219
itself. And so you'll be all right. And I'm giving

02:20:59.219 --> 02:21:00.840
you a grossly oversimplified version of what

02:21:00.840 --> 02:21:02.579
we did. But it was much more complicated than

02:21:02.579 --> 02:21:03.719
that. There's a bunch of other stuff that we

02:21:03.719 --> 02:21:07.059
had to do to manage it as well. Well, I mean,

02:21:07.059 --> 02:21:09.159
he just sent me, I mean, we were in touch all

02:21:09.159 --> 02:21:10.739
the way along, so it was clear that this was

02:21:10.739 --> 02:21:12.700
working, but it was just kind of amazing to get

02:21:12.700 --> 02:21:15.379
a picture from him two weeks ago as we just passed

02:21:15.379 --> 02:21:18.500
that six month mark. He weighs a buck 75. Whoa.

02:21:18.739 --> 02:21:22.459
That's 60 pounds in six months. Holy shit. His

02:21:22.459 --> 02:21:25.370
liver. And that's interesting, but not nearly

02:21:25.370 --> 02:21:27.610
as interesting to me as the fact that his transaminases,

02:21:27.670 --> 02:21:30.930
which are the enzymes that the liver makes in

02:21:30.930 --> 02:21:33.790
response to how much fat is accumulating. You

02:21:33.790 --> 02:21:36.950
know, normal is like less than 40. He was like

02:21:36.950 --> 02:21:39.489
in the hundreds. And, you know, the ultrasound

02:21:39.489 --> 02:21:41.209
showed it was just a bunch of fat. And he doesn't

02:21:41.209 --> 02:21:43.850
drink alcohol. So we knew it was non -alcoholic

02:21:43.850 --> 02:21:45.309
fatty liver disease. You know, now he's in the

02:21:45.309 --> 02:21:49.299
20s and 30s. What was his previous diet? What

02:21:49.299 --> 02:21:52.020
was he eating? Just a normal dude. He wasn't

02:21:52.020 --> 02:21:54.319
a particularly junk food. He wasn't a junky guy.

02:21:54.479 --> 02:21:56.459
The problem is he was metabolically broken. So

02:21:56.459 --> 02:21:58.200
I'll come back to why I felt like this was a

02:21:58.200 --> 02:22:00.620
necessary intervention despite how draconian

02:22:00.620 --> 02:22:04.819
it was. He's on a treadmill 30 minutes a day

02:22:04.819 --> 02:22:07.059
now. He couldn't walk before. I mean you take

02:22:07.059 --> 02:22:08.500
60 pounds off a person. When you say treadmill,

02:22:08.600 --> 02:22:09.780
you mean walking on a treadmill. Yeah, he walks

02:22:09.780 --> 02:22:12.459
on a treadmill now. Yeah. Walks briskly. He can't

02:22:12.459 --> 02:22:13.780
really run once you get the hip replacement,

02:22:13.899 --> 02:22:17.049
right? Yeah, he's got the hip replacement. So

02:22:17.049 --> 02:22:18.870
it's just – it's basically reprogrammed him.

02:22:18.969 --> 02:22:22.090
And so the reason I have occasionally pulled

02:22:22.090 --> 02:22:25.090
that trick out, although it hasn't always worked,

02:22:25.290 --> 02:22:27.670
is based on this case study I read that's very

02:22:27.670 --> 02:22:29.950
famous. I'm sure some – there's got to be someone

02:22:29.950 --> 02:22:33.500
on this show who's talked about it. The paper

02:22:33.500 --> 02:22:36.239
was published in either the early 70s or late

02:22:36.239 --> 02:22:38.840
60s, but it was the longest ever medically supervised

02:22:38.840 --> 02:22:41.120
fast. So it was this guy who weighed somewhere

02:22:41.120 --> 02:22:45.600
between 375 and 400 pounds. He did a 382 -day

02:22:45.600 --> 02:22:48.280
inpatient medical fast where he had only water

02:22:48.280 --> 02:22:50.600
and minerals. At the end of that something like

02:22:50.600 --> 02:22:54.280
382 days, he was down from call it 400 to $1

02:22:54.280 --> 02:22:57.979
.65. This paper was published seven years later.

02:22:58.409 --> 02:23:01.229
He weighed like $1 .70, $1 .75. The crazy thing

02:23:01.229 --> 02:23:03.610
about that guy is his skin shrank too. Yeah.

02:23:03.790 --> 02:23:05.909
So he didn't have that problem that a lot of

02:23:05.909 --> 02:23:07.629
people have when they lose a lot of weight where

02:23:07.629 --> 02:23:10.110
they have all this extra skin. His skin went

02:23:10.110 --> 02:23:13.469
along with his body. Yeah, and I wonder if that's

02:23:13.469 --> 02:23:15.569
just due to genetic elasticity. Yeah, exactly.

02:23:15.909 --> 02:23:17.770
I would like to know. I would like to know if

02:23:17.770 --> 02:23:19.989
he had stretch marks when it shrank, you know.

02:23:20.700 --> 02:23:22.760
You know, it's funny. I've never tried to figure

02:23:22.760 --> 02:23:24.979
out, like, whatever came of that patient. I can't

02:23:24.979 --> 02:23:26.840
imagine he'd be alive now, though I know he was

02:23:26.840 --> 02:23:29.260
young at the time. But the part that interested

02:23:29.260 --> 02:23:33.000
me was that he didn't regain all the weight seven

02:23:33.000 --> 02:23:35.440
years later. And that suggested that there was

02:23:35.440 --> 02:23:38.559
a, like, it was a reprogram. You got the blue

02:23:38.559 --> 02:23:40.180
screen of death on the computer. You did the

02:23:40.180 --> 02:23:43.340
hard reset. He got to be a new person again.

02:23:43.479 --> 02:23:45.799
Because I'm not of the camp that thinks, like,

02:23:45.840 --> 02:23:47.840
that guy got to be 400 pounds just because he

02:23:47.840 --> 02:23:50.959
was a glutton and a sloth. Like something fundamentally

02:23:50.959 --> 02:23:55.139
broke in that dude. And what broke was he basically

02:23:55.139 --> 02:23:57.299
lost the ability to partition fuel correctly.

02:23:58.079 --> 02:24:00.639
Now, could food play a role in that? Absolutely.

02:24:01.200 --> 02:24:03.219
Certainly if you eat enough shit, that can happen.

02:24:03.879 --> 02:24:05.639
But I think it's more complicated than that.

02:24:05.700 --> 02:24:08.200
I think it could be epigenetic, if not outright

02:24:08.200 --> 02:24:12.600
genetic, but probably more epigenetic. And so

02:24:12.600 --> 02:24:14.659
I'm interested in this idea of how do you reset

02:24:14.659 --> 02:24:18.120
people? And again, this is all kind of long -winded

02:24:18.120 --> 02:24:21.100
way of saying like, One of the advantages of

02:24:21.100 --> 02:24:24.500
practicing medicine is you get to – you stay

02:24:24.500 --> 02:24:26.659
humble because every time you think you're smart

02:24:26.659 --> 02:24:28.579
and you're like, I got this shit figured out,

02:24:28.700 --> 02:24:31.299
like you don't. There's like some patient who's

02:24:31.299 --> 02:24:33.059
got a problem that you can't figure out and it

02:24:33.059 --> 02:24:36.059
just drives you nuts. But you realize like –

02:24:36.059 --> 02:24:37.860
I mean even just today I was talking to a friend

02:24:37.860 --> 02:24:40.020
of mine. He's not a patient but – I mean, my

02:24:40.020 --> 02:24:41.959
God, he's just going through like this devastating

02:24:41.959 --> 02:24:44.680
health situation. He's been he has seen every

02:24:44.680 --> 02:24:46.340
doctor. He's been to Mass General. He's been

02:24:46.340 --> 02:24:48.319
to Stanford. He's been to Hopkins. He's been

02:24:48.319 --> 02:24:50.760
to the best hospitals in this country. They can't

02:24:50.760 --> 02:24:52.760
fucking come close to figure out what's wrong

02:24:52.760 --> 02:24:57.340
with this guy. And so as bad as that is for him.

02:24:57.930 --> 02:24:59.969
I think that level of humility is actually good

02:24:59.969 --> 02:25:02.450
for the profession. What is going on with him

02:25:02.450 --> 02:25:03.729
that they can't figure out? He's having these

02:25:03.729 --> 02:25:05.930
horrible neurologic symptoms where he gets these

02:25:05.930 --> 02:25:08.510
fasciculations and muscle weakness. And obviously

02:25:08.510 --> 02:25:11.170
the big concern about six months ago when this

02:25:11.170 --> 02:25:13.229
started was he was presenting like he had Lou

02:25:13.229 --> 02:25:16.510
Gehrig's disease, which obviously is about as

02:25:16.510 --> 02:25:20.209
bad a fate as you can have. Luckily, that has

02:25:20.209 --> 02:25:22.329
been ruled out and they've done a million muscle

02:25:22.329 --> 02:25:24.719
biopsies and all these other things. But they

02:25:24.719 --> 02:25:26.639
don't know what's going on. Has he altered his

02:25:26.639 --> 02:25:30.180
diet? Has he taken? No, no. We don't know what's

02:25:30.180 --> 02:25:33.540
going on. This is certainly far outside of my

02:25:33.540 --> 02:25:35.200
area of expertise. I mean, what we talked about

02:25:35.200 --> 02:25:37.940
today was, look, man, all we really need to be

02:25:37.940 --> 02:25:39.500
doing is fixing your symptoms at this point.

02:25:39.579 --> 02:25:41.440
In other words, there's understanding what's

02:25:41.440 --> 02:25:43.399
causing this and then managing the symptoms around

02:25:43.399 --> 02:25:45.360
it. I think the smartest people in the country

02:25:45.360 --> 02:25:47.139
have figured out they have no goddamn clue what's

02:25:47.139 --> 02:25:49.500
going on. Let's now figure out how to manage

02:25:49.500 --> 02:25:51.500
your symptoms, your energy levels, your mood,

02:25:51.639 --> 02:25:53.600
all of these other things. What has he done for

02:25:53.600 --> 02:25:55.959
that? Well, I told him today, I was like, look,

02:25:56.040 --> 02:25:57.299
I'm going to send you a kit. We're going to do

02:25:57.299 --> 02:25:59.079
a certain blood test on you and a certain urine

02:25:59.079 --> 02:26:01.440
test on you. And I want to just figure out what's

02:26:01.440 --> 02:26:03.360
going on with your four hormone systems. There's

02:26:03.360 --> 02:26:05.399
basically four hormone systems that play a pretty

02:26:05.399 --> 02:26:08.120
big role in how we feel. And adjusting those

02:26:08.120 --> 02:26:09.899
doesn't, I'm not convinced it necessarily makes

02:26:09.899 --> 02:26:11.340
you live longer, but it can certainly make you

02:26:11.340 --> 02:26:13.299
live better. So I want to kind of understand.

02:26:13.840 --> 02:26:16.700
I suspect he's not firing on all cylinders on

02:26:16.700 --> 02:26:19.719
that dimension, whether it's a result of whatever

02:26:19.719 --> 02:26:21.680
is going on that nobody can figure out or not.

02:26:21.840 --> 02:26:24.159
But I'd rather focus on something that I think

02:26:24.159 --> 02:26:28.739
we can fix. Yeah, the change in diet thing with

02:26:28.739 --> 02:26:33.340
that guy where he went and fasted for 360 plus

02:26:33.340 --> 02:26:37.180
days. What did he eat when he got back on food?

02:26:37.540 --> 02:26:40.000
Great question. I do not know the answer. Now,

02:26:40.020 --> 02:26:42.399
it might be that that just I don't recall that

02:26:42.399 --> 02:26:46.889
being in the paper. But if it wasn't, I don't

02:26:46.889 --> 02:26:48.989
know if anybody did the follow -up. But to me,

02:26:49.030 --> 02:26:50.549
that's the interesting question too, right? That

02:26:50.549 --> 02:26:52.469
guy's got to feel amazing. Like he got his life

02:26:52.469 --> 02:26:55.049
back, right? And my recollection is he was a

02:26:55.049 --> 02:26:57.389
young man. He was in his late 20s, I think. Yeah,

02:26:57.409 --> 02:26:59.450
I believe I remember that as well. I think I

02:26:59.450 --> 02:27:01.829
would like to find out what he's eating now to

02:27:01.829 --> 02:27:04.729
keep his weight at the same level. I mean, he

02:27:04.729 --> 02:27:07.069
must just be so thankful. First of all, he might

02:27:07.069 --> 02:27:10.739
be like, I mean, I have friends that are... pretty

02:27:10.739 --> 02:27:12.680
overweight and one that died pretty recently

02:27:12.680 --> 02:27:16.819
who was really big and he just had this feeling

02:27:16.819 --> 02:27:19.799
when he would meet people i mean he talked about

02:27:19.799 --> 02:27:21.940
it a little bit he was just obese you know it

02:27:21.940 --> 02:27:25.120
was just this thing where you're just oh look

02:27:25.120 --> 02:27:27.719
at this enormous fat guy and then to go from

02:27:27.719 --> 02:27:30.979
that to oh there's a guy there's a normal guy

02:27:30.979 --> 02:27:34.139
yeah that's just a guy it's 168 pound guy normal

02:27:34.700 --> 02:27:36.079
No difference between him and anybody else. And

02:27:36.079 --> 02:27:40.040
I got to tell you, I know we love to beat up

02:27:40.040 --> 02:27:42.760
on fat people. We love to turn it into a character

02:27:42.760 --> 02:27:45.379
defect. But I got to tell you, virtually every

02:27:45.379 --> 02:27:47.879
fat person that I know or that I've taken care

02:27:47.879 --> 02:27:51.079
of, they are not disproportionately eating more

02:27:51.079 --> 02:27:53.799
than their peers. In some cases, yes, but not

02:27:53.799 --> 02:27:58.020
on balance. The problem is that they simply.

02:27:58.809 --> 02:28:01.829
do everything incorrectly metabolically you know

02:28:01.829 --> 02:28:04.209
so their body is functioning incorrectly yeah

02:28:04.209 --> 02:28:07.170
and it's you know and it's a genetic component

02:28:07.170 --> 02:28:09.750
i think there are dietary exacerbations i think

02:28:09.750 --> 02:28:11.729
certainly not exercising makes things worse so

02:28:11.729 --> 02:28:13.690
there are lots of predisposing factors but at

02:28:13.690 --> 02:28:16.930
the end of the day what's happening is when you

02:28:16.930 --> 02:28:19.329
and i eat like let's let's take a meal that that

02:28:19.329 --> 02:28:21.629
like if you had pancakes bacon and scrambled

02:28:21.629 --> 02:28:23.350
eggs that would be like a really good mix of

02:28:23.350 --> 02:28:25.770
that'd be a third carbs a third protein a third

02:28:25.770 --> 02:28:28.110
fat so that's like a Shit ton of nutrient, right?

02:28:28.809 --> 02:28:31.350
If you or I ate that, yeah, it probably wouldn't

02:28:31.350 --> 02:28:34.329
be that good for us. But let's say we just finished

02:28:34.329 --> 02:28:36.549
a workout or something. We're going to partition

02:28:36.549 --> 02:28:39.450
such that that glycogen will first and foremost

02:28:39.450 --> 02:28:42.069
go to replace the muscle and liver stores of

02:28:42.069 --> 02:28:44.149
glycogen. Because we have bigger muscles and

02:28:44.149 --> 02:28:46.329
our muscles are more insulin sensitive, we can

02:28:46.329 --> 02:28:48.370
actually disproportionately put more glycogen

02:28:48.370 --> 02:28:50.510
into our muscles, into the leg muscles, because

02:28:50.510 --> 02:28:52.170
you'll have done that run up the hills, right?

02:28:53.120 --> 02:28:56.299
And then furthermore, when we want to recruit

02:28:56.299 --> 02:28:59.120
energy again, we'll have the ability to actually

02:28:59.120 --> 02:29:01.959
go back and get fat. In other words, break down

02:29:01.959 --> 02:29:05.739
fat at lower ATP demands than necessarily always

02:29:05.739 --> 02:29:07.979
going to glycogen. So in other words, we partition

02:29:07.979 --> 02:29:11.360
fuel in a smarter way. And these patients, I

02:29:11.360 --> 02:29:13.059
mean, you can measure this clinically using something

02:29:13.059 --> 02:29:15.799
called RER and, of course, doing other blood

02:29:15.799 --> 02:29:19.239
tests. Like they just can't break down their

02:29:19.239 --> 02:29:22.000
own fat. So their body is essentially broken

02:29:22.000 --> 02:29:25.100
in that regard and that can be fixed with diet.

02:29:25.700 --> 02:29:27.979
It's a hard problem because the way I explain

02:29:27.979 --> 02:29:30.959
it to people is – and so clinically I'm not interested

02:29:30.959 --> 02:29:33.540
in weight loss, right? I mean that's just not

02:29:33.540 --> 02:29:35.860
– I'm much more interested in longevity. And

02:29:35.860 --> 02:29:37.639
yes, sometimes weight loss comes with that. But

02:29:37.639 --> 02:29:40.840
I – like if I ever get stuck doing weight loss,

02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:43.200
like I'm doing the wrong thing for my interest.

02:29:43.500 --> 02:29:46.239
But the way I say to people when they want to

02:29:46.239 --> 02:29:47.860
lose weight is, look, you don't want to lose

02:29:47.860 --> 02:29:50.489
weight. You want to lose fat. Let's be very clear

02:29:50.489 --> 02:29:53.790
on our semantics. Weight is irrelevant, right?

02:29:53.809 --> 02:29:55.930
Unless you're a cyclist or some athlete for whom

02:29:55.930 --> 02:29:58.190
the actual scale means something. But for people

02:29:58.190 --> 02:30:00.530
like us, you want to lose fat, not weight. And

02:30:00.530 --> 02:30:02.010
then when you say you want to lose fat, what

02:30:02.010 --> 02:30:04.610
does that mean in English? Well, do you want

02:30:04.610 --> 02:30:06.590
fewer fat cells or do you want each fat cell

02:30:06.590 --> 02:30:09.270
to be smaller? Those are totally different questions.

02:30:09.549 --> 02:30:11.770
If you want fewer fat cells, have liposuction.

02:30:12.649 --> 02:30:14.629
But we know that that doesn't fix you metabolically.

02:30:14.770 --> 02:30:17.680
So if you want... If you want to be less fat,

02:30:17.819 --> 02:30:20.559
you have to have smaller fat cells. Now, a fat

02:30:20.559 --> 02:30:23.659
cell conceptually has two inputs and one output.

02:30:24.319 --> 02:30:27.440
So now I say, let's reframe the question. You've

02:30:27.440 --> 02:30:29.639
got a room with 100 people in it. You want fewer

02:30:29.639 --> 02:30:33.120
people in the room. What has to happen? More

02:30:33.120 --> 02:30:34.739
people have to leave the room than enter the

02:30:34.739 --> 02:30:37.299
room. So similarly, if you have a fat cell and

02:30:37.299 --> 02:30:39.059
you want it to be less fat, you've got to get

02:30:39.059 --> 02:30:41.680
more fat out of it than enters it. And the fat

02:30:41.680 --> 02:30:44.059
that exits the cell exits via a process called

02:30:44.059 --> 02:30:46.940
lipolysis. And the inputs to a fat cell are something

02:30:46.940 --> 02:30:48.879
called de novo lipogenesis, which is turning

02:30:48.879 --> 02:30:51.260
carbohydrates into fat, and re -esterification,

02:30:51.639 --> 02:30:54.440
which is turning fat like in a free fatty acid

02:30:54.440 --> 02:30:57.159
into a triglyceride back into a fat cell. Each

02:30:57.159 --> 02:30:59.159
of those three doors is controlled by hormones.

02:31:00.399 --> 02:31:05.399
And so the purpose of nutrition or fasting or

02:31:05.399 --> 02:31:07.399
exercise or drugs or hormones or all these things

02:31:07.399 --> 02:31:09.860
is to manipulate those hormones in the direction

02:31:09.860 --> 02:31:13.030
of what I call negative fat flux or what would

02:31:13.030 --> 02:31:15.290
be referred to in the literature as fat balance,

02:31:15.350 --> 02:31:18.329
negative fat balance. And the hormones that drive

02:31:18.329 --> 02:31:21.190
that are many, insulin, hormone -sensitive lipase,

02:31:21.209 --> 02:31:24.270
testosterone, estrogen, cortisol being the five

02:31:24.270 --> 02:31:27.010
most important in my opinion. Maybe someone will

02:31:27.010 --> 02:31:28.229
disagree with that, but I think those are the

02:31:28.229 --> 02:31:32.270
five that rule the roost. And so, you know, how

02:31:32.270 --> 02:31:34.389
do you manipulate those? Well, insulin seems

02:31:34.389 --> 02:31:37.850
to be the most important of the five. And there's

02:31:37.850 --> 02:31:39.950
no better way to lower insulin than to not eat.

02:31:40.629 --> 02:31:42.909
So the first thing that happened to that dude

02:31:42.909 --> 02:31:47.129
who went 382 days without anything but water

02:31:47.129 --> 02:31:50.250
and minerals is he basically had very low insulin

02:31:50.250 --> 02:31:53.670
levels. In fact, once he got into raging ketosis,

02:31:53.690 --> 02:31:56.670
which he got into by about day seven, his insulin

02:31:56.670 --> 02:31:59.649
came up only. to prevent him from going into

02:31:59.649 --> 02:32:02.549
ketoacidosis, which was what would happen if

02:32:02.549 --> 02:32:04.649
he had no insulin response. In other words, if

02:32:04.649 --> 02:32:06.290
he was a type 1 diabetic, he would have died

02:32:06.290 --> 02:32:08.569
of ketoacidosis because he wouldn't have had

02:32:08.569 --> 02:32:11.489
the insulin to regulate the uptick of ketones.

02:32:11.610 --> 02:32:14.110
But if you or I did this because we have a normal

02:32:14.110 --> 02:32:17.469
pancreas, we would actually make just enough

02:32:17.469 --> 02:32:20.750
insulin to suppress ketogenesis and keep that

02:32:20.750 --> 02:32:23.350
beta -hydroxybutyrate level in the, you know,

02:32:23.350 --> 02:32:25.389
kind of in the neighborhood of probably 7 or

02:32:25.389 --> 02:32:27.959
8 millimolar. as opposed to getting north of

02:32:27.959 --> 02:32:30.020
12 to 15, which is when you get into trouble.

02:32:31.020 --> 02:32:36.000
So how do you manipulate insulin? Nutrition is

02:32:36.000 --> 02:32:38.899
the first way. If you can't fast, the next best

02:32:38.899 --> 02:32:41.319
thing is to reduce carbohydrates. Carbohydrates

02:32:41.319 --> 02:32:43.899
obviously are the most insulogenic of food, although

02:32:43.899 --> 02:32:45.959
protein can be quite insulogenic as well. It

02:32:45.959 --> 02:32:49.139
has a different response. And then that's when

02:32:49.139 --> 02:32:50.540
you start to think about these other things.

02:32:50.739 --> 02:32:53.690
I've seen patients where They just can't lose

02:32:53.690 --> 02:32:55.389
weight. And I watch what they're doing and they're

02:32:55.389 --> 02:32:57.530
doing everything right, but they just can't lose

02:32:57.530 --> 02:32:59.750
weight. But then you notice their cortisol levels

02:32:59.750 --> 02:33:02.450
through the roof. It's hard to get rid of fat

02:33:02.450 --> 02:33:04.610
when you have lots of cortisol. Cortisol is a

02:33:04.610 --> 02:33:08.829
very anabolic hormone to fat and a very catabolic

02:33:08.829 --> 02:33:10.870
hormone to muscle, which is the exact opposite

02:33:10.870 --> 02:33:13.069
of what we want. Testosterone, of course, is

02:33:13.069 --> 02:33:15.510
the exact opposite. Testosterone is catabolic

02:33:15.510 --> 02:33:19.930
to fat, but anabolic to muscle. And then, of

02:33:19.930 --> 02:33:22.239
course, Women have a harder time because once

02:33:22.239 --> 02:33:25.040
women go through menopause, they lose all the

02:33:25.040 --> 02:33:27.540
estrogen and all the testosterone. And so now

02:33:27.540 --> 02:33:29.479
they lose two hormones that play a very important

02:33:29.479 --> 02:33:32.139
role in regulating this. So for these people

02:33:32.139 --> 02:33:35.100
that are having the issue with cortisol levels,

02:33:35.299 --> 02:33:37.979
that's exacerbated by stress, right? Yes. So

02:33:37.979 --> 02:33:41.379
stress actually exacerbates your weight gain.

02:33:41.659 --> 02:33:46.370
Absolutely. Wow, that's interesting. In addition

02:33:46.370 --> 02:33:48.450
to a whole bunch of other stuff. You could literally

02:33:48.450 --> 02:33:50.450
eat the same diet and gain more weight because

02:33:50.450 --> 02:33:54.809
of stress. Absolutely. Wow. Again, hormones are

02:33:54.809 --> 02:33:58.149
what's driving fuel partitioning. You're responsible

02:33:58.149 --> 02:34:01.469
for what you put in your mouth, but in many ways

02:34:01.469 --> 02:34:03.969
at that point, the hormones take over and decide

02:34:03.969 --> 02:34:08.059
where it's going. That's fascinating. Now, you

02:34:08.059 --> 02:34:10.620
yourself, what's your diet like? I mean, you

02:34:10.620 --> 02:34:12.899
told me you only eat once a day, but. Yeah, one

02:34:12.899 --> 02:34:15.340
meal a day or sometimes two meals a day. How

02:34:15.340 --> 02:34:18.739
many calories are you taking in? You know, nowhere

02:34:18.739 --> 02:34:20.379
near what I used to. I just don't train that

02:34:20.379 --> 02:34:22.079
much anymore. I mean, I kind of lift three days

02:34:22.079 --> 02:34:25.659
a week and then I ride like a stationary bike,

02:34:25.700 --> 02:34:28.020
like a Peloton or I prefer this thing called

02:34:28.020 --> 02:34:29.940
a Wahoo kicker where you actually put your bike

02:34:29.940 --> 02:34:31.760
on it. So I'll do that three or four times a

02:34:31.760 --> 02:34:36.120
week. I would guess when I sit down to throw

02:34:36.120 --> 02:34:39.420
down, it's probably 3 ,000 calories. That's a

02:34:39.420 --> 02:34:41.979
lot in one meal, huh? Yeah, although the problem

02:34:41.979 --> 02:34:44.260
is I'm a fucking pig. I'm kind of disgusted.

02:34:44.319 --> 02:34:47.239
I can eat a lot. It's gross. I gross people out

02:34:47.239 --> 02:34:50.319
how much I can eat, actually. For me to only

02:34:50.319 --> 02:34:54.360
eat 3 ,000 calories in a sitting is tame. Really?

02:34:54.500 --> 02:34:56.579
Yeah, yeah. No, I have an eating disorder. Really?

02:34:57.120 --> 02:35:02.129
Sort of. I think I have disordered eating. It

02:35:02.129 --> 02:35:03.790
seems like you just enjoy it because you do it

02:35:03.790 --> 02:35:07.270
once a day. No, under any circumstance. I stress

02:35:07.270 --> 02:35:12.389
eat. I do get a dope. I don't get a dopamine

02:35:12.389 --> 02:35:19.850
high from gambling or alcohol. Those things are

02:35:19.850 --> 02:35:22.469
not things that I can abuse. When I'm really

02:35:22.469 --> 02:35:27.469
in a shitty place in life, I soothe and punish

02:35:27.469 --> 02:35:30.280
myself with food. A lot of people do. So you

02:35:30.280 --> 02:35:33.059
could relate. And as a thin man, you know, when

02:35:33.059 --> 02:35:35.020
you're talking to people that are large and have

02:35:35.020 --> 02:35:38.340
the same issue, it's got to be. No, it's totally.

02:35:38.379 --> 02:35:40.639
I mean, I completely understand what these people

02:35:40.639 --> 02:35:43.360
are going through, at least in as much as what

02:35:43.360 --> 02:35:46.620
they as the as the physiologic desire for it.

02:35:46.620 --> 02:35:48.379
I mean, obviously, they will experience something

02:35:48.379 --> 02:35:51.120
even worse because there's the like I can like,

02:35:51.200 --> 02:35:53.719
look, I don't have abs on. I don't have veins

02:35:53.719 --> 02:35:56.059
in my abs anymore. I used to when I was in a

02:35:56.059 --> 02:35:58.530
ketogenic diet. You know, I was 7 % body fat.

02:35:58.729 --> 02:36:00.930
I was completely ripped. I'm not ripped anymore,

02:36:01.129 --> 02:36:03.690
you know, relative to that. That kind of bugs

02:36:03.690 --> 02:36:05.350
me, but, like, nobody really knows that. I mean,

02:36:05.370 --> 02:36:07.450
nobody really gives a shit. So I can still, like,

02:36:07.530 --> 02:36:10.069
look like a super healthy dude, a super lean

02:36:10.069 --> 02:36:14.229
dude, even if I'm not. But, oh, my God, like,

02:36:14.309 --> 02:36:17.200
when shit's going wrong, like— I want to eat

02:36:17.200 --> 02:36:19.280
some of the worst foods that have ever been created.

02:36:20.559 --> 02:36:23.479
Why is that instinct there? Why is the instinct

02:36:23.479 --> 02:36:25.739
that when you're not feeling like for me, it's

02:36:25.739 --> 02:36:28.479
tired. Like if I'm tired, like if I'm coming

02:36:28.479 --> 02:36:29.860
home from a gig and it's two o 'clock in the

02:36:29.860 --> 02:36:31.420
morning, it's very difficult for me to drive

02:36:31.420 --> 02:36:34.079
past Wendy's. You know, I want to go to Wendy's.

02:36:35.020 --> 02:36:37.860
That could be an adrenal issue. So a lot of times

02:36:37.860 --> 02:36:41.420
we'll see when people. either turn to sugar or

02:36:41.420 --> 02:36:44.399
salt in times of fatigue. A lot of times it can

02:36:44.399 --> 02:36:46.700
be, you know, they don't have the right level

02:36:46.700 --> 02:36:48.959
of free cortisol at that moment in time. I've

02:36:48.959 --> 02:36:50.780
always feel it's a willpower issue because if

02:36:50.780 --> 02:36:52.479
I could just get home, I'll cook something healthy.

02:36:52.739 --> 02:36:57.780
And then I have victory, you know, because if

02:36:57.780 --> 02:36:59.719
I get home, I know I've got healthy food at home.

02:36:59.780 --> 02:37:02.079
I'll eat something really good and it's just

02:37:02.079 --> 02:37:04.579
as good. But there's something about also there's

02:37:04.579 --> 02:37:06.340
like you're doing something, you know, you shouldn't

02:37:06.340 --> 02:37:09.399
do. There's a little weird little charge there.

02:37:09.459 --> 02:37:11.040
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I guess it's

02:37:11.040 --> 02:37:12.959
different for different people. I think for me,

02:37:13.000 --> 02:37:15.360
if I'm really going to be brutally honest about

02:37:15.360 --> 02:37:17.520
it, I think it's that I sometimes just want to

02:37:17.520 --> 02:37:20.239
punish myself. And I'm like, you know, like eating

02:37:20.239 --> 02:37:23.620
bad food is like when you're bad, you eat bad

02:37:23.620 --> 02:37:27.620
food. Do you give yourself a cheat day? You know,

02:37:27.680 --> 02:37:31.219
I don't—not really. I mean, I think these days—and,

02:37:31.299 --> 02:37:32.879
you know, you've got kids, so you know it. I

02:37:32.879 --> 02:37:34.979
mean, cheat days just present themselves often

02:37:34.979 --> 02:37:37.020
enough for other reasons. And unfortunately,

02:37:37.239 --> 02:37:40.079
I think for me, the cheat meals are a lot of

02:37:40.079 --> 02:37:42.040
times cleaning up a kid's plate or something

02:37:42.040 --> 02:37:44.979
like that, you know? Like, I mean, the funny

02:37:44.979 --> 02:37:47.209
thing is I just—I really— I don't know why. I

02:37:47.209 --> 02:37:49.069
just like shitty food. I like macaroni and cheese.

02:37:49.329 --> 02:37:51.090
Of course we do. Of course. If they don't eat

02:37:51.090 --> 02:37:52.729
their macaroni and cheese, I got to eat it. My

02:37:52.729 --> 02:37:54.329
kids asked me to make them peanut butter and

02:37:54.329 --> 02:37:56.290
jelly the other day, and they don't eat crusts.

02:37:56.290 --> 02:37:59.180
Which is really good. Fucking fantastic. Especially

02:37:59.180 --> 02:38:01.879
with a glass of milk. They don't eat the crusts.

02:38:01.879 --> 02:38:03.280
And I'm like, well, these crusts shouldn't go

02:38:03.280 --> 02:38:05.760
to waste. Oh, God. There's kids in Africa that

02:38:05.760 --> 02:38:07.620
should eat that crust. So I ate the crust. And

02:38:07.620 --> 02:38:09.739
then I thought about all the bread with peanut

02:38:09.739 --> 02:38:12.239
butter and jelly I ate in those crusts. I basically

02:38:12.239 --> 02:38:14.899
ate a fucking sandwich. It's like I'm pretending

02:38:14.899 --> 02:38:16.299
that I'm just eating a little crust. I eat a

02:38:16.299 --> 02:38:17.860
lot. I'm worse than you, dude. You know what

02:38:17.860 --> 02:38:19.040
I would have done in that situation? I would

02:38:19.040 --> 02:38:20.299
have been like. Peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

02:38:20.340 --> 02:38:22.120
Fuck it. Well, I would have started by saying,

02:38:22.200 --> 02:38:24.139
there's not enough peanut butter and jam on these

02:38:24.139 --> 02:38:26.520
crusts. I don't have the right ratio. So I would

02:38:26.520 --> 02:38:27.459
have got out the peanut butter. You put it in

02:38:27.459 --> 02:38:29.299
the jam and dip the crust in there. And then

02:38:29.299 --> 02:38:30.760
I would have probably made a sandwich. I'm just

02:38:30.760 --> 02:38:32.940
happy that I didn't eat a sandwich of my own

02:38:32.940 --> 02:38:35.500
as well as their crusts because I probably could.

02:38:35.600 --> 02:38:39.719
Once the fucking gates are open, once I'm out

02:38:39.719 --> 02:38:41.540
there making spaghetti and meatballs, like, all

02:38:41.540 --> 02:38:43.219
right, let's get some fucking ice cream in this

02:38:43.219 --> 02:38:47.420
mix too. Once I'm already fucking off. So what

02:38:47.420 --> 02:38:50.520
do you eat when you sit down for these 3 ,000

02:38:50.520 --> 02:38:53.299
-calorie meals? So if I'm in control of the meal,

02:38:53.420 --> 02:38:56.180
which I usually am, I'm a super boring dude.

02:38:56.459 --> 02:38:59.200
So it's I like to have a salad in a bowl that's

02:38:59.200 --> 02:39:02.000
larger than my head. So I always refer to that

02:39:02.000 --> 02:39:04.379
as a manly bowl. That's the definition of a manly

02:39:04.379 --> 02:39:07.159
bowl. So it's got to be like a staggering amount

02:39:07.159 --> 02:39:09.860
of salad. And my salad is the same every freaking

02:39:09.860 --> 02:39:12.780
day. It's romaine lettuce. It's, you know, tomatoes,

02:39:12.959 --> 02:39:16.159
mushrooms, cucumbers, carrots. And then the dressing

02:39:16.159 --> 02:39:18.059
is just extra virgin olive oil, freshly squeezed

02:39:18.059 --> 02:39:20.920
lemon, salt and pepper. It's pretty bland salad

02:39:20.920 --> 02:39:23.520
in that sense. But I mean, I can eat that all

02:39:23.520 --> 02:39:26.489
day, every day. And then it's a serving of protein,

02:39:26.590 --> 02:39:30.790
and I usually cycle through salmon, pork, steak,

02:39:31.290 --> 02:39:34.670
some gamey meat, like whatever. I just sort of

02:39:34.670 --> 02:39:37.590
cycle through that. And then I usually have some

02:39:37.590 --> 02:39:41.790
sort of starchy vegetable to go with it. So potato,

02:39:42.190 --> 02:39:44.690
rice. You know, lately, the last couple of weeks,

02:39:44.750 --> 02:39:47.290
I've been skipping the starch and just mainlining

02:39:47.290 --> 02:39:53.569
extra salad and extra protein. You know, but

02:39:53.569 --> 02:39:56.809
that's when I'm in San Diego where I have control

02:39:56.809 --> 02:39:58.690
over what I eat more. In New York, I never eat

02:39:58.690 --> 02:40:01.850
in my apartment. Like I just never cook. So I

02:40:01.850 --> 02:40:05.670
always go out. And there it's a little less regulated.

02:40:05.930 --> 02:40:08.190
So, I mean, I just love Indian food. I love Persian

02:40:08.190 --> 02:40:10.829
food. I love food that unfortunately is, you

02:40:10.829 --> 02:40:12.950
know, got more carbs in it than I'm probably

02:40:12.950 --> 02:40:17.370
suited for. But I try to modify. So like last

02:40:17.370 --> 02:40:21.120
week I had. this Bob, who's actually one of my,

02:40:21.139 --> 02:40:22.860
my head analyst, he lives in Boston. He came

02:40:22.860 --> 02:40:24.239
down to New York for a couple of days. We were

02:40:24.239 --> 02:40:26.420
doing some work and we went out for, he loves

02:40:26.420 --> 02:40:28.000
Indian and I love Indians. We went out for Indian

02:40:28.000 --> 02:40:31.280
one night and we hadn't eaten all day. So we

02:40:31.280 --> 02:40:35.479
ordered, I think seven or eight entrees and the

02:40:35.479 --> 02:40:40.100
waiter's like, you know, uh, you guys know you

02:40:40.100 --> 02:40:41.780
ordered seven or eight entrees, right? We're

02:40:41.780 --> 02:40:43.399
like, yeah, we got it. We got it. We're good.

02:40:44.090 --> 02:40:46.209
And so, you know, we sort of skipped the naan

02:40:46.209 --> 02:40:48.469
or maybe had one naan to split. Instead of normal,

02:40:48.489 --> 02:40:49.930
I would have had like four naans and only had

02:40:49.930 --> 02:40:53.309
one bowl of rice. It's still a lot of carbs.

02:40:53.670 --> 02:40:55.670
It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That naan bread is insane.

02:40:55.969 --> 02:40:57.829
Yeah. Luckily, Bob ate more of it than I did.

02:40:57.909 --> 02:40:59.709
And he's way more jacked than me, so he can get

02:40:59.709 --> 02:41:03.670
away with eating way more naan than me. But,

02:41:03.709 --> 02:41:05.790
yeah, that night, I mean, also those sauces are

02:41:05.790 --> 02:41:09.069
like so fatty. Like I'm sure that was a 4 ,000

02:41:09.069 --> 02:41:14.750
-calorie throwdown. pretty good about is when

02:41:14.750 --> 02:41:16.750
I'm done I'm done so that's the other thing about

02:41:16.750 --> 02:41:19.290
time restricted feeding that I think I get away

02:41:19.290 --> 02:41:22.790
with more because like when I go back to my apartment

02:41:22.790 --> 02:41:26.290
I will rarely have another bite and when I wake

02:41:26.290 --> 02:41:28.409
up in the morning it's like black coffee you

02:41:28.409 --> 02:41:30.709
know I'm not sneaking little shit in throughout

02:41:30.709 --> 02:41:33.969
the day like whereas if I'm not fasting it's

02:41:33.969 --> 02:41:38.739
just too easy for me to just like Oh, yeah. Like

02:41:38.739 --> 02:41:41.280
in my office, like I share my office in New York.

02:41:41.299 --> 02:41:44.540
I share with another doctor who it's his office.

02:41:44.559 --> 02:41:46.620
Actually, I kind of sublet an office there. But

02:41:46.620 --> 02:41:49.120
like I've never seen more shit in my life like

02:41:49.120 --> 02:41:51.059
than the stuff patients bring for him to eat.

02:41:52.250 --> 02:41:55.409
Patients bring him shitty food? Non -stop. To

02:41:55.409 --> 02:41:57.209
a doctor? Of course. What, are they trying to

02:41:57.209 --> 02:41:59.049
torture him for torturing them? I don't know.

02:41:59.069 --> 02:42:02.469
Maybe. Or drug reps will bring stuff by or something

02:42:02.469 --> 02:42:05.049
like that. There's an endless barrage of bad

02:42:05.049 --> 02:42:07.629
food to eat. But it's good bad food. Delicious.

02:42:07.850 --> 02:42:10.209
If they were bringing Oreos, that actually wouldn't

02:42:10.209 --> 02:42:12.270
tempt me, despite the monkey. But a home -cooked

02:42:12.270 --> 02:42:15.069
brownie. Yeah, exactly. Smell it. Or I forget

02:42:15.069 --> 02:42:18.030
the name of... God, I can't even remember the

02:42:18.030 --> 02:42:19.969
name of some of these bakeries up there. But

02:42:19.969 --> 02:42:22.319
yeah, there's some. ridiculous shit that shows

02:42:22.319 --> 02:42:25.879
up and every once in a while like I'm like okay

02:42:25.879 --> 02:42:28.719
the fast is breaking at four o 'clock today give

02:42:28.719 --> 02:42:31.760
me one of those scones but as long as you do

02:42:31.760 --> 02:42:35.540
it with moderation you think you're okay yeah

02:42:35.540 --> 02:42:37.860
except that my motto in life is moderation is

02:42:37.860 --> 02:42:39.760
the only thing worth doing in moderation so the

02:42:39.760 --> 02:42:43.590
problem is once I start like It's usually the

02:42:43.590 --> 02:42:45.409
wheels come off the bus pretty quick. Do you

02:42:45.409 --> 02:42:47.569
try to mitigate that with exercise? Like do you

02:42:47.569 --> 02:42:49.690
say that I went off the rails today, so let's

02:42:49.690 --> 02:42:51.649
hit the gym and go hard? It's less that. It's

02:42:51.649 --> 02:42:56.430
usually I anticipate it. So last week a buddy

02:42:56.430 --> 02:42:58.450
of mine went to see the David Bowie exhibit.

02:42:58.549 --> 02:42:59.790
Did you see it, by the way, the Brooklyn Museum?

02:42:59.829 --> 02:43:03.090
No. Are you a Bowie fan at all? Yeah. Oh, dude,

02:43:03.170 --> 02:43:05.049
it's there until mid -June or July. It's in Brooklyn?

02:43:05.209 --> 02:43:07.409
Yeah, it's at the Brooklyn Museum. I was in Brooklyn

02:43:07.409 --> 02:43:09.090
a couple weeks ago, but I was only there for

02:43:09.090 --> 02:43:11.149
two days for the UFC, and I had a show out there.

02:43:12.720 --> 02:43:14.239
So probably one of the best shows I've ever seen

02:43:14.239 --> 02:43:17.000
in my life. Really? Yeah. Unbelievable. I didn't

02:43:17.000 --> 02:43:19.479
realize it, but like it closed at 11 p .m. and

02:43:19.479 --> 02:43:20.979
they just didn't have the heart to tell me. So

02:43:20.979 --> 02:43:22.920
I was there till midnight before they finally

02:43:22.920 --> 02:43:24.500
came and like escorted me out of the building.

02:43:24.579 --> 02:43:27.159
They're like, sir, we closed an hour ago. I was

02:43:27.159 --> 02:43:30.459
like, damn, sorry, man. So what is it? It's like

02:43:30.459 --> 02:43:32.680
an exhibit of all of his art, all of his music,

02:43:32.760 --> 02:43:35.360
all of, and it's like, it's done. You know, when

02:43:35.360 --> 02:43:36.540
you go to museums and they put the headphones

02:43:36.540 --> 02:43:38.739
on you and you have to like push the button to

02:43:38.739 --> 02:43:40.579
hear the thing, it doesn't work that way. Whatever

02:43:40.579 --> 02:43:44.239
you stand near, you get the music associated

02:43:44.239 --> 02:43:47.180
with that plus or minus a narrative as necessary.

02:43:47.559 --> 02:43:52.899
But it was – like I've never – like I think they

02:43:52.899 --> 02:43:55.700
had every one of his costumes. Wow. I mean it

02:43:55.700 --> 02:44:00.260
was epic. So anyway, that night I knew we were

02:44:00.260 --> 02:44:02.639
going to go out for a killer dinner before –

02:44:02.639 --> 02:44:06.500
in Brooklyn before we went to the show. And so

02:44:06.500 --> 02:44:08.440
normally I exercise in the morning. But that

02:44:08.440 --> 02:44:11.420
day I was like, look. Your muscles will be a

02:44:11.420 --> 02:44:14.620
little bit more insulin sensitive if you can

02:44:14.620 --> 02:44:16.819
exercise about 30 minutes before you eat. That's

02:44:16.819 --> 02:44:19.700
probably about the sweet spot. So if I were to

02:44:19.700 --> 02:44:21.920
ride at like 8 in the morning and then not eat

02:44:21.920 --> 02:44:25.489
until 7 at night, I mean. I would still eventually

02:44:25.489 --> 02:44:27.409
get the glycogen there, but it wouldn't be quite

02:44:27.409 --> 02:44:28.790
as easy. It would require a little bit more insulin.

02:44:28.930 --> 02:44:31.469
So in that case, I just modified my day and was

02:44:31.469 --> 02:44:33.389
like, you know, made my schedule such that I

02:44:33.389 --> 02:44:36.350
could ride at 5 p .m. in anticipation of that.

02:44:36.409 --> 02:44:38.590
And I also wrote a little longer and a little

02:44:38.590 --> 02:44:40.909
harder. Just, you know, like, let's really crush

02:44:40.909 --> 02:44:43.309
this session so that, you know, I can go and

02:44:43.309 --> 02:44:45.610
enjoy dinner a little bit more. Well, it sounds

02:44:45.610 --> 02:44:47.989
like you enjoy a lot of things. You have a lot

02:44:47.989 --> 02:44:51.290
going on. You've got your medical practice. You

02:44:51.290 --> 02:44:53.270
have all these different things you participated

02:44:53.270 --> 02:44:56.649
in as far as athletics, boxing and swimming and

02:44:56.649 --> 02:45:03.209
cycling. What jazzes you up now? You obviously

02:45:03.209 --> 02:45:04.790
have a mind that requires a lot of stimulation.

02:45:05.190 --> 02:45:11.059
What keeps you going? I think this longevity

02:45:11.059 --> 02:45:13.440
thing is the perfect culmination of all of my

02:45:13.440 --> 02:45:16.040
previous lives in terms of professional lives.

02:45:16.200 --> 02:45:18.639
So, I mean, I used to be an engineer and then

02:45:18.639 --> 02:45:21.459
I went into surgery and then I left that and

02:45:21.459 --> 02:45:25.819
went into management consulting and had nothing

02:45:25.819 --> 02:45:27.659
to do with medicine for several years. I just

02:45:27.659 --> 02:45:30.680
worked in credit risk modeling. And so in many

02:45:30.680 --> 02:45:33.159
ways, like when you combine medicine with engineering

02:45:33.159 --> 02:45:36.290
with... risk management, that is what longevity

02:45:36.290 --> 02:45:38.729
is all about. Like if you want to take the practitioners,

02:45:39.030 --> 02:45:41.270
you know, the roll up your sleeves approach,

02:45:41.409 --> 02:45:43.969
that's what it is. So I think that scratches

02:45:43.969 --> 02:45:47.309
that itch. But I think for me, like I have to

02:45:47.309 --> 02:45:49.370
be sort of mastering something. So that's where

02:45:49.370 --> 02:45:52.450
archery and race car driving today become just

02:45:52.450 --> 02:45:54.309
total obsessions. And like when we were talking

02:45:54.309 --> 02:45:56.690
earlier, it's like, yeah, I mean, I don't know

02:45:56.690 --> 02:45:58.209
that I'll ever go hunt because I don't know that

02:45:58.209 --> 02:46:01.069
I want to spend three days, you know, taking

02:46:01.069 --> 02:46:03.250
10 shots when I could be spending, you know.

02:46:03.559 --> 02:46:07.379
three days taking 300 shots in my backyard. Like

02:46:07.379 --> 02:46:10.860
in the end, I think what I really just obsess

02:46:10.860 --> 02:46:13.520
over is trying to get better at something. And

02:46:13.520 --> 02:46:15.760
the nice thing when you start things late in

02:46:15.760 --> 02:46:17.700
life, like I didn't get my racing license till

02:46:17.700 --> 02:46:20.559
three years ago and I only picked up archery

02:46:20.559 --> 02:46:23.440
two years ago or maybe a year ago. Like when

02:46:23.440 --> 02:46:25.819
you suck so much, like the opportunity to get

02:46:25.819 --> 02:46:29.819
better is awesome. So I think the bigger itch

02:46:29.819 --> 02:46:31.739
for me is not intellectual. I think it's like,

02:46:33.090 --> 02:46:35.430
It's like figuring out how to do shit better.

02:46:36.110 --> 02:46:39.670
Yeah, I share a similar interest in things I

02:46:39.670 --> 02:46:41.930
suck at. And that's one of the things that was

02:46:41.930 --> 02:46:44.690
so compelling to me about archery. When did you

02:46:44.690 --> 02:46:50.229
start? 2013, I think I bought. Well, I bought

02:46:50.229 --> 02:46:52.110
a bow before that, but I didn't really use it.

02:46:53.090 --> 02:46:55.850
2013, I think, is right when I got pretty serious

02:46:55.850 --> 02:46:58.930
about it. You had John Dudley on your show once,

02:46:58.969 --> 02:47:01.809
didn't you? Yeah, a couple times. Dude, I wasn't.

02:47:02.040 --> 02:47:06.459
I mean that shot through the handle of the kettlebell.

02:47:06.500 --> 02:47:08.620
Yeah. Was that a hundred yards? I think it was

02:47:08.620 --> 02:47:12.659
a little more, but yeah. Yeah. That is, that's

02:47:12.659 --> 02:47:14.799
one of my favorite things in the world. He's

02:47:14.799 --> 02:47:17.819
helped me a lot. He's a remarkable archery coach

02:47:17.819 --> 02:47:20.079
and just a great person too. Just a great guy.

02:47:20.360 --> 02:47:22.219
I once saw on Instagram him and Jocko in the,

02:47:22.340 --> 02:47:24.040
like they bumped into each other in an airport.

02:47:24.379 --> 02:47:26.760
And so like I saw Jocko like two days later,

02:47:26.780 --> 02:47:29.590
we had coffee one day. To be clear, Jocko had

02:47:29.590 --> 02:47:32.790
tea. I had coffee. Jocko's a tea guy. But I was

02:47:32.790 --> 02:47:34.750
like, dude, I can't believe you know John Dudley.

02:47:34.790 --> 02:47:37.190
He goes, I don't know him. He just grabbed me

02:47:37.190 --> 02:47:39.909
in the airport. And I was like, dude, I would

02:47:39.909 --> 02:47:41.450
have been. There's the shot. Dude, I want to

02:47:41.450 --> 02:47:43.690
see this. He did it with a lighted knock. Yeah,

02:47:43.729 --> 02:47:49.690
he had a lit knock. Good God damn. People don't

02:47:49.690 --> 02:47:52.569
have any idea how crazy that shot is. They cannot

02:47:52.569 --> 02:47:56.840
fathom what he just did. Yeah. I've seen him

02:47:56.840 --> 02:47:59.500
do some pretty ridiculous shit. He's a bad motherfucker

02:47:59.500 --> 02:48:01.299
when it comes to archery, that's for sure. And

02:48:01.299 --> 02:48:04.079
he's helped me tremendously. Where does he live?

02:48:04.260 --> 02:48:06.579
He lives in Iowa. He moved to Iowa just so he

02:48:06.579 --> 02:48:09.500
can kill big, giant deer because he literally

02:48:09.500 --> 02:48:13.180
bought a farm in Iowa, a giant chunk of land,

02:48:13.280 --> 02:48:17.360
and raises it for – he does do some farming,

02:48:17.420 --> 02:48:20.200
but essentially what he does is raises deer.

02:48:20.420 --> 02:48:23.000
He doesn't raise them. There's no fence, but

02:48:23.000 --> 02:48:25.520
he makes it very – Make it favorable for them

02:48:25.520 --> 02:48:28.020
to be there. He has food plots that he grows.

02:48:28.280 --> 02:48:30.000
I mean, I hunted on this place a couple years

02:48:30.000 --> 02:48:32.159
ago. It's amazing. It's an incredible place.

02:48:32.750 --> 02:48:34.590
He loves it. I just, I remember when I bought

02:48:34.590 --> 02:48:38.069
my bow, like I just sort of, you know, went into

02:48:38.069 --> 02:48:39.530
the archery, like performance archery in San

02:48:39.530 --> 02:48:41.530
Diego is like the place to go, right? Yeah. Went

02:48:41.530 --> 02:48:43.069
in there and was like, okay, here's what I want

02:48:43.069 --> 02:48:44.409
to do. They're like, why? I'm like, just want

02:48:44.409 --> 02:48:46.290
to do it. Like, okay, great. And then I remember

02:48:46.290 --> 02:48:48.430
when I, you know, got all my kit and my setup

02:48:48.430 --> 02:48:50.069
and they're like, all right, you got to go to

02:48:50.069 --> 02:48:52.090
knock on, like you got to just watch this dude's

02:48:52.090 --> 02:48:56.180
videos. Yeah. No, he's literally the best in

02:48:56.180 --> 02:48:58.780
terms of like the average person who's interested

02:48:58.780 --> 02:49:00.899
in it. He's got a great podcast about it. Knock

02:49:00.899 --> 02:49:04.440
on podcast. But he gets so geeky and technical

02:49:04.440 --> 02:49:06.379
in his descriptions and his understanding of

02:49:06.379 --> 02:49:09.459
it. I mean, he constantly obsesses about form

02:49:09.459 --> 02:49:13.879
and structure and, you know, archery. To me,

02:49:13.899 --> 02:49:17.280
my history as a martial artist, it really. It

02:49:17.280 --> 02:49:19.440
jives with me. It makes sense. Because you could

02:49:19.440 --> 02:49:23.059
muscle things and do them wrong and develop bad

02:49:23.059 --> 02:49:25.600
habits, and you'll never reach your full potential.

02:49:25.959 --> 02:49:29.420
Or you could do things correctly and be very,

02:49:29.500 --> 02:49:32.739
very disciplined and focused and understand why

02:49:32.739 --> 02:49:36.680
you're doing something and then really actually

02:49:36.680 --> 02:49:39.159
reach your full potential. There's really no

02:49:39.159 --> 02:49:42.280
other way. And with archery specifically, it's

02:49:42.280 --> 02:49:44.399
so satisfying, like as we were saying before,

02:49:44.520 --> 02:49:47.920
when you do pull it off. And you do execute that

02:49:47.920 --> 02:49:50.340
perfect shot with your rhomboids, and the hand

02:49:50.340 --> 02:49:52.059
goes over the back shoulder, and you watch that

02:49:52.059 --> 02:49:55.059
arrow go right into that bullseye. You're like,

02:49:55.159 --> 02:49:58.159
yes! I have my daughter come out and do the slow

02:49:58.159 --> 02:50:01.139
-mo shot of me from behind. I've got like 100

02:50:01.139 --> 02:50:04.159
of these dumb things on my phone, and it's just

02:50:04.159 --> 02:50:05.319
like I can watch them all day, and it's like,

02:50:05.340 --> 02:50:07.500
did I do it? Did I do it? Nope, not there. Oh,

02:50:07.600 --> 02:50:10.319
yeah, look at that. Oh, sweet. A lot of it is

02:50:10.319 --> 02:50:12.840
elbow position, too, the height of the elbow.

02:50:12.920 --> 02:50:15.670
The elbow has to be in line with the arrow. And

02:50:15.670 --> 02:50:17.569
sometimes people are pulling, but they're pulling

02:50:17.569 --> 02:50:20.229
in their elbows up here instead of way back here.

02:50:20.370 --> 02:50:24.510
I think that's an interesting point about certain

02:50:24.510 --> 02:50:27.930
things, right? So to me, the other thing I like

02:50:27.930 --> 02:50:31.770
about archery and race car driving is you have

02:50:31.770 --> 02:50:35.069
to learn some emotional discipline. So you can't

02:50:35.069 --> 02:50:36.829
get pissed off and work your way through either

02:50:36.829 --> 02:50:38.969
of those things. You can sort of get pissed off

02:50:38.969 --> 02:50:41.110
on the bike and it can actually charge you, which

02:50:41.110 --> 02:50:42.930
is not to say that cycling doesn't have technique

02:50:42.930 --> 02:50:45.389
in it. But it plays a much smaller role, and

02:50:45.389 --> 02:50:47.809
in the end, the grr factor can out -trump it.

02:50:47.889 --> 02:50:51.170
But you can't grr your way out of a shitty shot,

02:50:51.329 --> 02:50:54.250
and you cannot. In a car, if you start getting

02:50:54.250 --> 02:50:56.649
pissed, you're done. I would imagine. You're

02:50:56.649 --> 02:50:58.790
absolutely done. The same thing can be said for

02:50:58.790 --> 02:51:00.889
a lot of things, I think. Pool is one of them.

02:51:00.909 --> 02:51:03.229
Yeah. That's a big one. Golf, which I don't do,

02:51:03.309 --> 02:51:06.670
but yeah. Yeah. Listen, Peter, we just did three

02:51:06.670 --> 02:51:08.590
hours, believe it or not. I don't believe that.

02:51:08.649 --> 02:51:12.920
It's 2 .30. Huh. Isn't that crazy? Look at that.

02:51:12.940 --> 02:51:15.420
This place is a time warp. It really is. But

02:51:15.420 --> 02:51:17.860
I really appreciate this conversation, man. It

02:51:17.860 --> 02:51:20.299
was really fun. Thanks, man. Thank you. If people

02:51:20.299 --> 02:51:22.219
want to get a hold of you on Twitter, give them

02:51:22.219 --> 02:51:23.879
your Twitter address, your website, all that

02:51:23.879 --> 02:51:26.180
stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. PeterTiaMD on both.

02:51:26.299 --> 02:51:29.200
A -T -T -I -A. All right. Thanks, man. Thanks,

02:51:29.219 --> 02:51:29.559
man. It was awesome.