Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #2418. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Evolutionary Psychology, Modern Social Dynamics, and Cognitive Performance Protocols. Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan
Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan Podcast by
night. All day. What am I doing? I feel a bit
less shit about myself. Just stave off death.
Well, doesn't it do something for your mind?
Of course. Doesn't it help you? Yeah, of course
it does. But when you compare it with life and
death, there's a little bit of a difference.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's definitely
a difference, but just for mental health, that's
the main reason to do it for me. It's mental
health. It's such a difference between not doing
it and doing it. I'm like two different, totally
different people. You got notes on that thing
or something? Always. You got to get one of these
babies, little kickstand jammies. Those are the
shit. Oh, sexy. Look at that. It's flat. Sexy,
sexy. Yeah. All right. All right. It encourages
you to waste your time watching YouTube videos.
Yeah, without having to hold it. Because it props
up, yeah. Beautiful. You feel like a fool sitting
there staring at your camera, holding it in your
hand. I always said, like, if there was a drug
that made people stare at their hand for six
hours a day, everybody would be like, oh, my
God. This is really a problem in this country.
People are just staring at their hands. Well,
we looked at that last time that we were on.
We had the photo of that guy, that artist that
had taken images of people looking at their phones.
Yes, with no phone in there. And then removed
the phones. It's such a crazy thing we're doing.
And now, of course, there's AR glasses that are
eventually going to put whatever TikTok feed
in like one eye where you're watching someone
in the other eye. Have you ever tried those?
I've messed around with them a little bit. Zuck
was here, and he let me try the new ones that
haven't been released yet. They were really interesting.
And you move a cursor around with your eyeballs,
and you can do things with your fingers. You
can pinch and spread things and stuff with your
fingers and play games with your fingers. It's
not quite as responsive as you'd like it to be,
but it's very beta. Fuck. It's pretty cool. It
is pretty cool. But also we're losing humanity.
We're going to be taken in. We're going to incorporate
with the machine. Yeah, well, I don't know. I
think a lot of people feel like that would be
a better version of the life that they have,
and that's the saddest thing, that people of
older generations look at young guys and girls
and how much time they spend online. And they
think, this is ridiculous. Why are they caring
so much about what is occurring on the internet?
But they don't realize people spend more time
on screens than they do asleep. So the digital
world is the real world for these people. Like
the digital world is more real than the real
world is. Ooh, I didn't think of it that way.
There are a lot of people that do spend more
time on screens than they do asleep. That's really
common. Balance that out. I'd like to spend half
as much time on my phone as I do asleep. Well,
that would be a good way to enforce it, right?
You log how much sleep time you've had. Yeah,
so I'm going to start sleeping 12 hours a day.
So I can spend six hours wasting. It's quite
a resource if you think about it. lack of an
appreciation of your resource. Because the resource
of your time and your attention, it's very valuable.
And you can convert it into all sorts of amazing
skills and information and knowledge and change
your whole life. Or you can just stare at stupid
shit all day long. It's so compelling though,
dude. It's been designed by the most profitable
companies on the planet with the smartest behavioral
scientists in history. It's an unfair fight.
It really is an unfair fight, and that's why...
Eh. Sort of. You could not do it, though. Oh,
you need to lean in, but it's like, there is
way more willpower you need to use in order to
be able to not than, like, just whatever the
course of natural human history is or natural
human behavior. Yeah. Like, it's so easy to...
Or, alternatively, you could dye the Venice River
green. That's what happens when you don't have
enough phone battery. I sent that to Chris today.
Greta Thunberg, she dyed the Venice canals green
to protest what a lack of action and climate
change. Yeah, a call to pull back carbon fuel
in Europe. And they didn't just do it in Venice.
They did it in 10 cities around Italy. But Venice
has obviously got this gorgeous waterway. It's
an entire city built on water. Bro. Yeah, that's
hard to see how ugly it is. Jamie, I could send
you a video of it because I sent Chris a video.
It's, you know, it's just like, how much attention
do you need, lady? Okay, stop. Sky News Australia
refers to her as a Swedish doom goblin. Sky News
is the one that's weirdly pro -Republican American
politics. Super right wing. It's like, who's
funding that? There's no way that there's that
much of an appetite in Australia for American
politics. So that's what it looks like. That's
disgusting. I was there this summer. It's fucking
beautiful. Venice is so gorgeous and so ancient
and so interesting. And to have this self -important...
pour a bunch of green dye into that water, you
should go to jail for that. Like, you're ruining
this experience for thousands and thousands of
people, not just the ones who live in that amazing
place, but the ones who get to visit. I mean,
someone figured out a way to make a whole city...
by shoving pylons into the ground, and they did
it a long time ago. It's all wood. The whole
city is stacked up on wood. They take these wood
poles, they shove them into the ground. It's
a specific type of wood that doesn't rot when
it gets wet and waterlogged. It actually hardens.
I forget what kind of wood it is. I watched this
whole thing on it. I mean, it's very stable.
I mean, sometimes they get some flooding. Like
one time we were there and the lobby of this
place was flooded. It does flood. But it's also
so fucking beautiful. And the architecture is
so amazing. It's such a gorgeous place. And it
just relaxes you instantly when you're there.
You're like, wow, I just want to have an espresso
and eat some pasta and just chill out. I went
last summer. It's one of the most beautiful places
I've ever been. And this fucking dummy decides
to just... Poor green dye. And how much green
dye did you put in there? And what kind of an
effect is that going to have on life? So they
claimed that it was environmentally safe. Rah,
rah. I don't know how environmentally safe anything
of that green color can be. But, yeah, what was
it? 48 -hour ban and $170 fine. That's it? Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. You should go to jail for a night.
I think about this a lot, man. In some ways,
I understand why the rhetoric gets more and more
inflammatory. So if you care about an issue,
if you really, really think that this issue is
important and people don't listen, you start
to shout a bit louder. Right. And then you shout
a bit louder and then you shout a bit louder.
The British are coming. The British are coming.
You know who first said that? Wasn't Paul Revere.
Bonnie Blue. Who's that? She is the lady that
slept with 1 ,057 men in a day. Oh, that poor
lady. Yeah. So, people don't listen. Do you ever
see Don't Look Up? That movie on Netflix? That's
very funny, by the way. I missed that joke because
I didn't know who that was. Jamie got it. Jamie
got it from over there, even with a toothpick.
I'm kind of proud that I can't recognize her
name, though, honestly. I'll take that. It's
probably a good sign. People don't listen. So,
Don't Look Up. That film with Leonardo DiCaprio
a couple of years ago. Do you remember? It was
like an asteroid coming in. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a funny movie, right? Half funny, but kind
of it's supposed to be a comment on the impending
doom of climate change and nobody's listening.
Yeah, they're not correct. That's the problem.
Who are those two gentlemen that we had in recently,
Jamie? The guy from MIT and the other guy from,
was he from Yale or Stanford? Where was he from?
Anyway, these two. Brilliant scientists who have
analyzed the data. And one of them was going
over the actual understanding, the equations
that you would need to understand in order to
really be able to calculate what is having an
effect on the climate and how many different
factors there are. And all of them working synergistically
in some weird, unexplainable way. And then the
cold, hard reality of climate data over the past.
X amount of millions of years where it's always
done this glaciation and then the glaciers, they
recede and then you get higher ocean levels.
It's like constant. Every 12 ,500 plus years,
it goes up and down and up and down and it never
stays static ever. It's never static. And the
real fear is not global warming. The real fear
is global cooling. Why? Global cooling kills
everything. And we got that close at one point
in history to having such a low oxygen level
on this planet and such a low carbon dioxide
level because there was no plant food, right?
That these fucking plants almost died. We almost
lost all life on this planet. We've gone like
a few degrees from that happening. Glaciers are
fucking scary. Ice ages are scary. When it gets
warm, you just move. And I know that sucks if
you're living in a city of 20 million people,
but it hasn't happened yet. And they've been
talking about it forever. That fucking stupid
movie, An Inconvenient Truth, was wrong about
everything. He should have to give back every
fucking penny he made from that movie. You were
wrong about everything. You scared the shit out
of everybody and you were 100 % wrong. One of
the problems I think people have is if you really
care about something and you're convinced, whether
your conviction is incorrect or not, you're convinced
by it. So what you do, you say a thing, people
don't listen. Say it a bit louder, people still
don't listen. Say it a bit louder again, people
still aren't listening. And the problem is it's
a misunderstanding about what... compels and
convinces other humans. What we think is if people
aren't listening, if I shout louder, they're
going to pay attention. What we don't realize
is that actually turns everybody off. Because
if you just see someone throwing soup over a
Van Gogh painting, turning the canals of Venice
green, gluing themselves to the M25 in London
and stopping people from being able to get to
work, like it gets attention. But you're not
looking for attention. You're looking for conviction.
You're trying to compel people to believe the
thing that you believe. And I think that it does
the opposite. And I understand why it's so seductive,
because you think making it's cool to your own
side to do something flaming sword wielding truth
teller. I'm going to charge through and look
at how cool it is. But making somebody feel stupid
or embarrassed or inconvenienced or upset is
a really bad way to change minds. So I think.
If people really care about changing minds, they
need to realize and assuming that they think
that they're correct, they need to realize that
like intellectual chasm from where they are and
where other people are. And you go, OK, I'm going
to take you one step at a time. So even if you
were to accept that the science and all of the
stuff that the climate change people believe
in is accurate, I still think that the strategies
that they're using aren't going to be effective
because I think it turns more people off. Right.
And they're scolding. They're shrieking, scolding,
and they're not the type of people that you want
to talk to, so you avoid them. Looking down from
on high. Yeah, it's my British heritage. It doesn't
cause you to feel inclined to support them. The
opposite. It causes you to want to burn tires.
I want to buy spray paint. Fucking hairspray,
just blow it by my car. Have you heard of the
Cassandra complex? Do you know what this is?
No. Fucking brilliant, dude. So in ancient Greek
mythology, Cassandra is given the gift of being
able to see the future by Apollo, and then she
rejects his advances, so he curses her, and he
says that for the rest of time, you're still
going to be able to see the future, but people
aren't going to believe you. So she foresees
the downfall of Troy. She warns everybody, people
don't listen. Troy burns anyway, and it's basically
being right but early so Rachel Carson she wrote
that book Silent Spring 1962 it's about DDT environmental
epidemics She gets mocked by scientists castigated
by everybody, but her work led to the banning
of DDT What year was this 1962 interesting? Ignis
Sammelweis, like 1840s, he realizes that doctors
are transmitting childbed fever from corpses
to mothers because they're not washing their
hands. So he begs his colleagues to start adopting
hand washing and he gets mocked by academia.
He dies in an asylum. He dies in an asylum. That's
how badly he's treated. Germ theory of disease
gets, a couple of decades later, gets proven.
Edward Snowden, who you've spoken to, like some
people saw him as a traitor. Some people saw
him as a truth teller. But I think everybody
had a bit of, really? Is that what's going on?
A few years later, it turns out, yeah, the government
is spying on you. Yeah, 100%. And this Cassandra
complex. So if somebody ever says, I'm a Cassandra,
I'm feeling like Cassandra today. I foresee this
thing. You don't. You're not listening to me.
It's a big deal. And the problem is the difference
between somebody being a righteous Cassandra
with the ability to see the future. And just
being a crazy person who's being convinced by
bad data or perverse incentives, it's very hard
to work out which one you are. Perverse incentives
is the real word because here's the thing, folks.
We do have a horrible impact on the environment.
It's factual. It's measurable. You can go see
it. There's many third world countries that have
rivers that are completely clogged. garbage and
plastic that's real if you're not trying to stop
that but you're railing about carbon well carbon
is a weird thing because carbon is essential
to plant life it's the there's more green on
earth today than there was a hundred years ago
And that's because of our carbon emissions. That
is an inconvenient truth. All right, fuck Al
Gore. That's an inconvenient truth. So carbon
is a part of the—is it good that we're burning
stuff and putting it in the atmosphere? No, I
do not think it is. No, I'm not arguing that.
I'm saying that our impact on the environment
that is tangible and disgusting is pollution.
That's the impact on the environment. And if
you're really thinking about our carbon footprint
and carbon taxes and carbon incentives— You got
to follow the money. Like what is happening here?
Well, there's a bunch of green initiatives and
those green initiatives get funding and they
get funding to the tune of billions and billions
of dollars. And if you know anything about any
sort of nonprofit, like someone just pulled up
some, there's a nonprofit about animals and they
just release what a fucking scam it is. There's
so many of these nonprofits where the vast majority
of the money is going to salaries. Like the most
of the money is. going to salaries. And there's
a tiny fraction of that money that gets allocated
to whatever that cause is. Which is... why it
justifies people who work for the organization
to sustain the organization's existence because
that's their interest. 100%. But there's no data.
Here's the thing. All of their predictions, all
of the climate change predictions are totally
inaccurate, every single one by all the doomsayers.
So you would think they would course correct.
You would think they would say, okay, no one's
arguing that. The particulates that get emitted
into the atmosphere by coal plants are not terrible
for everyone. No one's arguing that glyphosate
is good for you. No one's arguing that the poisons
we're putting in rivers and streams, no one's
arguing that's good for you. The stuff that gets
into groundwater, no one says that's good. That's
our real problem. Our real problem is pollution.
It's fucking terrible. There's a real problem
with waste. There's a real problem with landfills.
All that's real. This carbon thing is a weird
one. It's a weird one to concentrate on solely
because it seems to have an effect on the atmosphere.
It has an effect on the temperature of Earth,
but not what they're saying. Can you think of
a perverse incentive other than people just want
to keep their jobs? Is there something else?
It's people keeping their jobs. It's righteousness.
It's virtue signaling. And it's also the extraordinary
amount of money that gets put into green initiatives.
It also helps people campaign. When you're campaigning,
if you say climate change is real, we will follow
the science. Oh, thank God. You get my vote.
That's what happens in these fucking dumb. asses
just fall for it every time it's it's not that
it's a real impending doom scenario that's not
real it's not real it's not real But what is
real is humans' impact on Earth. So you've got
to figure out why is this one thing, why are
they concentrating so much on carbon when it's
not a measurable thing? It's not a thing where
you're seeing this hugely detrimental effect
by this one action that we have. Well, because
someone's trying to make money. It's it. No one's
doing it for your own good. There's not a fucking
single person on Earth that's involved in any
of these big causes that's really concerned about
us. No, there are. all making money. Even if
they're not making money other than their salary.
If your salary is a million dollars a year to
run a charity, maybe that charity is fucking
horseshit. You know? Because if you make a million
dollars a year, you're rich as fuck. This episode
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Tea and Lemonade is a malt alcohol located in
Orange County, California. Well, the argument
would be in order to get somebody of the standard
that you need to run this charity. at the level
that it needs to be run at, you need to give
a competitive salary. What an amazing job they're
doing where 95 % of the money goes to overhead.
What an amazing job you've done in having zero
progress. Please show me your efficiency plans,
the blueprint. Zero progress in any of your air
quotes science that you're pointing to that's
showing these prediction models. All their prediction
models are wrong. And they always quote things
that are wrong, like storms are stronger, they're
more common. No, you're just looking at a strong
storm. If you look overall, there's always been
strong storms. They're totally unpredictable.
Have you had Alex Epstein on? Do you know him?
No, I don't know him. Have we had him on? Moral
case for fossil fuels. Oh, okay. Interesting
dude. He has, like, one of the most interesting
stats that I learned from him was climate -related
deaths have decreased by 98 % over the last century.
Yeah. So one of the things that people don't
consider when they look at the cost of energy
and energy production is that you need to be
able to protect. More people are killed from
heat than are killed from cold. And you need
to protect from heat by using energy. And if
you're going to produce cheap energy, some byproducts
are going to be spat out into the atmosphere.
But the impact of the creation of the energy
is way... more effective at increasing human
longevity than the side effect of the energy
being made. Does that make sense? Totally rational.
Yeah. It seems like that would make sense. I've
had Richard Betts, director of the IPCC Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change on the show, Hannah Ritchie
from Our World in Data. Like I've really tried
to get a good balance on all of this stuff. But
Alex's position in that area, which is it's a
very luxury belief to hold to talk about how
green we must be in the West. when you have access
to unlimited energy. I think a billion people
worldwide don't have access to reliable electricity.
Like half a billion people are still using wood
and dung in order to be able to produce their
electricity. That was the data that he showed
me the last time we spoke. That means that if
you've got a baby that's on a ventilator, a newborn
baby that needs to be put on, that baby dies.
That baby dies because that particular country
does not have access to clean. to cheap and reliable
energy. Cleanness does not matter for these people.
Yeah, I've heard that argument that the best
result worldwide would be to increase the power
supply to all these third world countries. And
then you would have this ability to start manufacturing,
doing a bunch of different things that we associate
with the negative aspects of the West. You know,
the negative aspects of the West that cause pollution,
that cause all these different things. The problem
is electricity is a real bastard to try and move.
I think the entire grid has got eight minutes
of battery backup. Ten minutes of battery backup.
It's so little and it's so cumbersome and you
lose it as you transport it further. Dude, I
get it. I really believe that existential risks,
climate change included, are things that humans
should pay attention to. But if you were to rank,
Toby Ord wrote this great book called The Precipice
and he is from the Future of Humanity Institute
at Oxford. He wrote... the best researchers in
the world. He got them to rank what are the most
dangerous existential risks to humans. And it's
a one in 10 ,000 chance over the next century
coming from climate change. It's one in six.
from AI, or one in 10 from AI, one in 10 from
engineered pandemics, like one in 30 from natural
pandemics. There's so many other huge issues
that are really pressing. I'm not saying that
climate change isn't a priority. I'm saying that
if you were to rank the priorities, it actually
starts to move pretty far down. And when you
think, if people are worried about the future
of the world, they have a worried about the future
of the world budget to spend. Almost all of that
is going on climate change. Jamie, can you try
and get up? It's a chart by Toby Ord. It's just
called, if you search like the precipice chart,
Toby Ord can bring it up. And you just think,
how much attention is being paid to all of these
other things? How much attention is being paid?
A nuclear war, I guess, gets a little bit of
attention, but slightly less so now. But natural
pandemics, engineered pandemics, AGI, these are
big deals. Worry that a lot of attention has
been focused onto one actually relatively inconsequential,
at least in the immediate term. No. Go back.
Do a Google search for me. Top left. Yep. That's
it. So nuclear war, one in 1 ,000. Climate change,
one in 1 ,000. Other environmental damage, one
in 1 ,000. Engineered pandemics, one in 30. Unaligned
artificial intelligence, one in 10. The total
risk is one in six, but climate change is one
in a thousand over the next hundred years. A
stellar explosion, there you go. One in, what's
that, a billion? That's what we need. I don't
like that one. That one scares the shit out of
me. I remember a documentary I watched back in
the day that was about hypernovas, and when they
first started measuring these gamma bursts in
space, they thought that maybe alien races were
at war with each other. Because there's this
enormous burst of energy and they realize it's
stars going hypernova. And how many of them do
it all over the universe? Because the universe
is so big. And there's just a single beam of
like a death ray that gets sent out across the
universe. Just unimaginable power. And it happens
all the time. It's happening all the time in
the sky. And if it happens anywhere near you,
it just takes out the whole solar system, takes
out everything. If it happens in neighboring
solar systems, it takes us out, takes out everything.
Yeah, you're fucked. Wow. If that's not a justification
for just living your life and getting the fuck
on with it and not coloring the Venice Canal
green. I don't know what it is. Well, it's the
thing that gets you attention, unfortunately.
That's really what all this is about. Send her
back to Israel. They'll give her attention. They
gave her some great attention. I'm kind of obsessed
with this idea of toxic compassion, which I think
is what you're talking about. So the prioritization
of short -term emotional comfort over everything
else. I remember Elon was talking. A couple of
years ago, someone had accused him of contributing
to climate change, so on and so forth. And he
says, I think I've done more to reduce climate
change than any other human on the planet. That
if you look at the EV revolution being started
by Tesla, plus everything else from a technology
perspective that we're doing, I think that there's
an argument to be made that I've had a more positive
impact on the future of the climate than any
other human. He said, what I'm interested in
is the reality of doing good, not appearing good.
and not appearing to do good while doing bad.
And this, the opportunity people have to be able
to look like they're doing good while not doing
it is exactly where this toxic compassion thing
leaks in. So for instance, people will proclaim
that body weight has no impact on health. over
a long duration, even if this causes overweight
individuals to not take their health as seriously
and literally die sooner. But we're here. Joe,
you don't understand. We're trying to be inclusive
here. We're trying to be understanding of what's
going on with these people. If someone was to
say that a male athlete has no advantage in a
sporting competition, because, Joe, we're trying
to be inclusive. We're trying to be empathetic.
We care about these people. Well, even if that's
done at the exclusion. female athletes right
people are prepared to show they're prepared
to do whatever is needed to appear good yes and
the alternative which it makes complete sense
who wants to do good while looking bad right
that's the thing you're saying is so important
they they will sacrifice everything to appear
that they're doing good that's because that's
really what they're worried about and that that
is all stemming at least in part, I should say
not stemming, but certainly accentuated by the
social media world that we're living in now.
Because everyone has this opportunity to appear
like they're something other than they are. They're
using filters. They're standing in front of a
leased car. There's all the above. They're doing
things. They're wearing cheap, cheap fake jewelry.
They're trying to look like something they're
not. And there's a culture of that. And there's
also a culture that that gets. Well, I'm not
one of those because I don't care about material
goods, but I'm really interested in climate change.
And so then, you know, you join up with whatever
fucking climate change group that's yelling and
shouting and you carry a sign and you do all
these things you're supposed to do and you get
free water. The whole thing is just it's it's
a psychological game that people. are playing
with themselves. They try to appear that they're
special and to be in competition or in battle
with the other side. But if you're in battle
with people that are saying, hey, none of these
models are correct. Hey, none of these predictions
have come to bear. Zero. Not a single one where
they say, the sea level's going to rise. There's
going to be no more Miami. Nothing. Not a fucking
thing has happened. Like, you're wrong. OK, so
we need to figure out what's right. If we can
all agree that if we're doing something bad to
the planet and it's somehow or another avoidable,
let's work towards that. But if you're telling
me we're doing something bad to the planet and
then when I say, well, show me and you can't.
Well, what about all these predictions? Well,
they're wrong. Well, what about that movie that
ever got everybody? Well, it was totally inaccurate.
OK, well. you can't use that on your side anymore.
I never saw that movie. Ah, so bad. What were
the claims? An inconvenient truth. Let's find
out. Put it into perplexity what the incorrect...
I was already asking, what did it get right and
what did it get wrong? Yeah, what did it say?
That's typing it up right now. I guarantee you
they didn't get nothing wrong or they didn't
get nothing right. Which one do you want to start
with, right or wrong? The predictions for catastrophic
events. What did he get wrong about the predictions
for catastrophic events? Predictions that were
incorrect. Rapid sea level rise, 20 feet. The
film depicted a potential sea level rise of up
to 20 feet, 6 meters, in the near future from
the collapse of Greenland or West Antarctic ice
sheets. While this extreme scenario is considered
possible over centuries or millennia, scientific
consensus does not support this happening. Eminently,
current rates are much slower, even with acceleration.
Reaching 20 feet would take many centuries. Another
one, Mount Kilimanjaro glacier melt caused by
global warming. Goal attributed the shrinking
of Kilimanjaro's glaciers mainly to global warming,
but later research points to other major causes
like sublimation and reduced snowfall. Unrelated.
primarily to temperature. Impression of imminent
chaos. The film often implies that catastrophic
outcomes like rapid ice sheet collapse and dramatic
sea level rise might occur within decades when
in reality, such processes are expected to take
much longer, often centuries or more. And then
legal findings. A UK court found nine errors
of exaggerations in the film, mostly involving
a lack of clarity on time scales or oversimplified
attributions like Kilimanjaro. Overall, climate
scientists judged an inconvenient truth as mostly
accurate with its projections, particularly in
broad trends, but criticized its presentation
for occasionally exaggerating the speed and certainty
of some changes. Well, I think this is... Yeah,
but this is the thing. It's climate scientists
judged it. I'd like to keep this climate hustle
going on. Well, they were mostly accurate. We
do have a sincere problem. Stop putting a British
accent on when you do that. That's not even British.
That's like a fake British guy. That's like a
posh shithead from Connecticut. Okay, okay, okay.
But you're right. The lack of scrutiny that people
have of their behavior, the distance between
our opinions and our deeds, never been greater.
That's the internet. And what it means is you're
allowed to do good. while appearing bad and do
bad while appearing good. And it's way easier
to do bad or to just not research. And it's significantly
harder if you're like, I'm going to go out, try
and invent something, try and push against an
idea or an ideology or a campaign for a movement
that I think is really, really important. And
people are going to say that I'm doing something
mean or people are going to call me names for
doing it. There's no incentive to do it. Why
would somebody do that? And I think that's what
Elon's point is, right? What I'm interested in
is doing good, not the appearance of it. And
I see a lot of people who are doing bad while
appearing good. Well, I think through no fault
of their own, young people are indoctrinated
into this world when they start going to college
that you have to be active. And to be an activist
is to be a good person. To be involved in these
campus activities is a good thing. And there's
also a tribal aspect to it. You're on a tribe
of people that are... the people that are on
the right side of history. These are the people
that are kind and compassionate, unless you disagree
with them. And these are the people that are,
they trust the science, unless it's inconvenient.
And these are the people that, you know, you
want to be in the educated minority. You want
to be the people that get it. And you want to,
it's very important that you use your voice.
You know, and so they think they're being good
people. And I get that. And I understand that.
But it's being weaponized against you. And it's
probably not even funded by legitimate people.
It's most likely there's at least some funding
by some foreign entities that are just trying
to sow discord and make sure that everybody hates
everybody. That'd be a wonderful way to take
down any country, right? To make it feel as if
it was coming from inside. Yeah, sure. There's
a lot of that going on. Absolutely proven. There
was a thing recently with ChatGPT where they
found out that these entities in China were using
ChatGPT to argue about USAID shutdown. Did you
see the Twitter account thing where you can see
where the accounts are based? Yes. I know. Bro.
One of the ones that is like a fan account of
the JRE. People thought it was me forever, and
I was like, I didn't correct it. It made it say
parody accounts. It says either commentary account
or parody account or whatever. Fan run account.
Just so you don't think it's me because people
do think it's me. It's in Asia. Someone in Asia
is doing that. Allegedly, unless he's got a VPN.
Who are you, hardworking Asian supporting the
Joe Rogan podcast? Well, you could, right? That's
the question. How do they know where you're from
if you sign up with a VPN and you say, I'm in
the South Pacific? How do they know? I don't
know. I don't know. I certainly know that assuming
that you're on the right side of history, especially
if you're in a big group, is often a bit... a
dangerous position to be in. So that Cassandra
complex thing that I was talking about before,
sometimes people might say, it's your duty, if
you believe in a thing, to stand firm, right?
You should make your case known. You know, you're
Ignaz Samuel Wise. You know about the germ theory
of disease. You're Rachel Carson. You know about
the impact of DDT. You're Edward Snowden. You
know about the surveillance that's going on.
There's a really wonderful example, the comparison
between Copernicus and Galileo. So Copernicus
in the 1500s, he begins to realize that the Earth
might not be the center of the solar system,
let alone the universe. And he has enough evidence
to justify it, but he waits until his deathbed
to actually sort of... whisper out his great
work, which is De Revolutionibus, this work that
he made, and he does it on his deathbed, presumably
to avoid the wrath of the church. Now, some sort
of hardline freedom fighting, you should do it,
don't listen to the man, don't back down, just
stand on your principles, people would say, well,
that's a cowardly thing to do. You knew what
the truth was and you didn't stand by it. A hundred
years later, Galileo comes along. He sees the
moons of Jupiter, sees the phases of Venus, sees
the pockmarks on the surface of the moon. And
he realizes that the heliocentric model, this
like Copernican revolution is true, proclaims
it from the rooftops. What happens to him? House
arrest. He gets put under house arrest. He gets
forced to recant under the threat of torture
and spends the rest of his life under house arrest.
So what you have here, and I fucking love this
example so much. I think it's so cool. It's two
guys. 100 years apart with the same realization.
And the justification for the first one not saying
what he didn't say loudly is the treatment of
the second. I think it's like just this perfect
explanation of irony. You know what I mean? Like
it's so perfect. And you go, well, the main issue
that I have with like, basically being right
and early often feels a lot like being wrong.
And if you make an example of somebody in that
way, It is basically you saying, if you step
out of line too far, this is what's going to
happen to you. And it causes people who are trying
to move conceptual inertia forward, we're trying
to do research, I'm trying to assess whether
or not this is actually the way that the world
should be. It causes them to be more Copernicus,
not more Galileo. And I think that's... That
is not what you would want in a civilization
that's trying to continue to make progress. You
would want to be accepting of new ideas and you
would want to encourage them as opposed to castigating
people. Do you think that social media and the
influence of other people's opinions, it makes
someone more likely to... be able to think for
themselves or less likely, like more likely to
be able to examine preconceived notions, recognize
like, oh my God, maybe I'm biased or maybe it's
just like a group bias that I've accepted because
of all the people around me. And I think this
is wrong. And I think this is what I think is
really going on. Or do you think it encourages
that kind of thinking or discourages it? I think
it certainly encourages groupthink, very much
so. But both, right? It would open up the opportunity
for some people with a very unique psychological
profile to be able to step back against it. Black
helicopters. Yeah, there's a few guys out there
I can think of. But I think on average what you're
seeing is basically this huge, big swath of people.
For the first time ever, you're able to aggregate
just how much support or criticism something
has. Yeah. This is what like to dislike ratios
are. This is what upvote to downvotes are on
Reddit. And I think that that causes people...
Most people don't want to have to do the thinking
of coming up with an original opinion. I'm sure
that most of mine aren't original. But given
the fact that doing the original thinking is
hard... Most of the culture war is actually two
armies of puppets being ventriloquized by a handful
of actual thinkers. Most people are just being
brought along and pushed along by people who
came up with an idea. And they're assuming, well,
we know this for a fact. Well, it's interesting
because both sides know for a fact the thing
that the other side says is a lie. That can't
be true. See, I get the sense that it causes
people to adhere to the crowd more. more than
they would have done previously. And you also
have to think that if you're spending that much
time on it, like six hours a day, it's one of
the primary influences of your life, probably
more so than any other media in the past, because
it was very rare as a child that you would listen
to six hours of the news. You wouldn't really
be indoctrinated into six hours of whatever the...
latest cultural dilemma was or the latest social
issue was, you wouldn't get that much of it.
You'd get people talking about it like normal
people do during the day, or maybe you'd be talking
about a newspaper article you read, but you're
not getting six hours of it all day long. But
now we are, at least six hours. I mean, what
is the, let's find that out. What's the average
number of hours a 18 -year -old kid is on social
media? I would guess it's at least, I would guess
social media, maybe four. Let's just say their
phone, screen time. Screen time, at least six,
probably more. Yeah. At least six, probably more.
And the mad thing to consider here is your parasocial
relationships. Think about this. People will
listen to your show and listen to my show more
than they see their parents. Oh, yeah. By a huge
margin. Huge margin. If you saw your parents
that much, it'd be kind of creepy. The average
screen time for 18 -year -olds, seven to eight
hours. There you go. Of total screen time per
day is common. Though it varies a lot by person
and country. Okay, what country has the least
amount of screen usage? Would you want to discount
school time too? Because aren't you on screens
technically in school? You're asking phone time,
I guess, right? Yeah, I think it's personal phones
they're talking about. Are they on screens? I've
noticed it's counting my laptop open in my screen
time because I'm connected to the same. like
iOS system. So I'm getting like 18 hours a day,
but I'm like, I'm not on my phone 18 hours a
day. Uh, interesting. Um, so let's guess like
what countries, well, you'd have to have first
world countries for it to count. You know, like
if you're in the Congo, you probably don't get
as much screen time. No, you're busy mining the
fucking raw materials. Exactly. Yeah. You're
making the phones, not using them, which is the
craziest thing of all that. The thing that people,
virtue signal on the most at the end of the line.
Japan. Someone pulling it out. Lowest global
average. Interesting. Three hours and 56 minutes
is still a lot of time. That's kind of crazy.
But they're probably a little healthier with
it. How is nine hours and 24 minutes less than
10 hours and 56 minutes? How is that the highest
global average if 10 hours is the... That's weird.
I don't understand. Yeah. Close contender is
more than the highest global average. I don't
get it. But either way, the Philippines, they're
killing the game. 10 hours and 56 minutes. Dude,
there was a 2023 mental health report. The UK
came in second most depressed country in the
world. Second? Second most depressed country
in the world. UK. UK, yeah. What's number one?
Uzbekistan. So it's just above Uzbekistan and
just below South Africa. Did the U .K. used to
rank higher? Yes, it's tracked down over time,
but it's never been superbly. I mean, misery
is our, like melancholy is sort of our personality
trait. It's our national sport, right, being
a bit more melancholic. But, yeah, the Ukraine,
who are just about to go into their fourth year
of war, came in higher. And Yemen, who apparently
are going through like one of the worst humanitarian
crises in human history, also ranked higher than
the U .K. So, yeah, second most depressed country
in the world. That's crazy. That's a wild number,
man. It can't just be the weather. It has to
be like a— Weather might contribute a little
bit. A little bit, like Seattle does. Like people
in Seattle are depressed as fuck. Maybe it's
the online safety bill. Could be. That would
get me depressed. I would be so depressed if
I lived in England right now. I'd be like, I'm
fucked, like legitimately fucked. Like imagine
if I was running this podcast the exact same
way out of England. Not for long. Yeah, I'd get
arrested. I'd get arrested. I saw they arrested
a teacher because he refused to refer to one
of his students as a they. And this was like
his second infraction. And so they arrested him.
For failure to recognize a singular plural. Look,
I really don't like, I don't like shitting on
the UK because it feels like I'm pulling the
ladder up after I've just got out of it. But
it's just, I don't know how many more ways you
can faceplant over and over again. And there's
this bit, there's a strange kind of romanticization
of the past, of the UK. where we are English
common law, and we stopped the transatlantic
slave trade, and we used the Navy, and so on
and so forth. But we're really living on borrowed
time now as the UK. It's been a good while since
the UK has contributed in that sort of a way.
There was Alan Turing from World War II. The
Turing effect? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was the
guy that decoded the Enigma machine. The Turing
test. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was gay. And he
was chemically castrated by the British, despite
the fact that he was literally our equivalent
of the atomic bomb. Right. He was a very British
version as well. It wasn't kinetic. It was cognitive.
So he decodes the machine that the Germans are
using to send their secret messages. This means
that we're able to detect exactly where the U
-boats are going to be. And it results in some
really awkward situations like if we are before
we're going to use all of our force. to try and
take Germany down. If we avoid all of their planned
bombings, they're going to guess that we might
have the keys to some of their communication.
So they had to start making decisions about which
boats needed to be let attacked and which boats
needed to be saved. Oh, my God. They knew all
of the different attacks that were coming, but
if they got rid of all of them, if they were
safe from all of them, the Germans would start
to catch on. So they had this really... Oh, God.
So this guy is our equivalent of the atomic bomb.
Right? He's our Oppenheimer. He gets chemically
castrated just after World War II. It was in
the 50s, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he
kills himself. He takes his own life. He puts
cyanide in an apple. Oscar Wilde in the 1800s,
one of the greatest writers of all time, he's
jailed and then dies in exile as a peasant in
France because he was gay. And then 70 years
after touring, Gordon Brown, it's like 2008,
2009. publicly apologizes. They bring out this
thing called the Turing Act, which gets rid of
the criminal records of all of these people from
history, like posthumous. And some of them are
probably still alive, actually, like some of
these people that had been, whatever it was,
convicted of indecent behavior, improper behavior
at the time. And then they put Turing on the
£50 note. So Britain has, for all that it's fantastic,
and I love it, and it's the country that I came
from. It does have a history of fucking persecuting
people for what's deemed improper behavior at
the time and then apologizing for it a couple
of decades later. And I think with the online
safety bill thing, I think it's going to be the
sort of thing that you look back on and go, in
no one's world was that a smart move. I don't
think that it's helping anybody at all. Well,
it just appears that they want total, complete
control of what people say over there. And that
they don't want criticism of the government and
criticism about immigration and criticism about,
you know, fill in the blank. They don't want
it. And the best way to stop that is to keep
everybody scared, make everybody self -censor.
What's the best way to make everybody self -censor?
Put a bunch of fucking people in jail. So last
year, what was it, 12 ,000? 12 ,000 people got
arrested for social media posts? Supposedly more
than Russia, although the Russian stats might
not be... Well, they didn't arrest them. They
just shot them in the face. They don't count
that. Gulag for you. Yeah, they just kill folks
over there. But, yeah, it's really bad. It's
really bad, and it just doesn't seem very progressive.
It doesn't seem like you're moving towards the
future. It's not progress. We figured out a long
time ago that free speech is very important to
figure out what's right and what's wrong, and
when you suppress people's speech, you can get
away with a lot of fucking horrible things because
you stop people from being able to protest it.
In a small part, we saw a lot of that during
the pandemic, and you see what the consequences
of that are. You can't trust people that want
power. You just can't. What do you mean? Anybody
that wants any kind of control over a group of
people, if you want to control what they say,
if you want to control where they go, you want
to put them in 15 -minute cities, you can't trust
that because the natural inclination when someone
has power is to never let it go. and to ramp
it up. They're in the power business. If you're
in the power business, you don't want to keep
making the same amount of money every year. You
don't want to have the same power every year.
That's boring, right? Like if you're an insurance
salesman, you want to be the fucking employee
of the month. You want to make more money next
year. You got your eyes on a new Lexus. You're
trying to make more. You're not trying to stay
maintained. That's not the game you're in. And
if you're in the power game and if you're in
the game of enacting new laws in order to have,
we need safety. Safety. Under the guise of safety,
you can get so much evil shit done. And if you
start doing that, you're not going to say, you
know what, guys, we were that safety bill. We
were really wrong. And what's really important
is discourse. What's really important is that
maybe I wonder why you think the way you think.
And, you know, maybe part of this polarization
process is not enabling us to see valid points
the other side has. Let's all come together and
talk about this as reasonable human beings. No,
that's not what they're going to do. They're
going to come up with more fucking reasons to
put you in a cage. They want you to shut the
fuck up because they want to make more. They
want to have more. They want to get more power.
They want to be the best leader. They want to
be the most powerful leader. Isn't that a ruthless
part of human nature that trajectory is more
important than position? Jimmy Carr taught me
this. So your industry, imagine that you're the...
250th best comedian in the world. Let's imagine
there's a ranking. And last year you were the
300th. You were in a more psychologically preferable
position than somebody who's number two in the
world, but last year was number one. This sense
that humans have of where am I now compared to
where I was previously. I spoke to Dan Bilzerian
about this forever ago. And I was like, dude,
you've kind of climbed the peak of the mountain
of hedonism. Did you ever think that you kind
of front -loaded it too much and that it's going
to be really, really difficult for you to ever...
Like reset, like I do a hedonic reset. How do
you go from the most amount of girls in the cars
and all the dopamine that the world has to offer?
Where do you go from there? And he basically
said, yeah, he was like, I'm going to try. I
would consider shaving my head and my beard and
going and working in an Amazon warehouse for
six months to see if I can do like a hard reset.
But you always know that you've got the get out
of jail free card. So it's not going to be the
same. And just the idea, as you're saying, somebody
has power. They want more power. Right. They
want more power. They want more control. That
sense. That's the sport they're playing. Bingo.
Scoring. They're scoring. You have to keep score.
Greta Thunberg. The same thing. We need more
eyeballs. We need a bigger, bigger. Because where
do you go after you've made the rivers of Venice
green? Yeah. Well, you need to do something bigger,
something more. I need more likes. That didn't
get me enough likes. I need more likes. I need
to go viral. It's a ruthless. I'm being shadow
banned. No, you're not. Your content just sucks.
Some people get shadow banned, but most people
that are shadow banned, they just suck. Yeah,
most people just don't understand that they're
not interesting. But there's definitely real
shadow banning going on. One of the things that
was interesting is that once Elon purchased Twitter,
I gained like 5 million followers over the course
of like a couple of months. I was like, what's
going on? It's because I was somehow or another
they had locked my followers down. I'm not complaining
about this. I'm just observing. I know I have
a lot of followers. It's ridiculous. I think
I had 7 million. And it used to go up pretty
steady. And then somewhere during the woke days,
during the dark days of woke, when it all started
happening, which is around, I think, 2014, 15,
16, it started really ramping up. And then it
seems like from 16 on, real censorship started
really kicking into high gear because then they
had a reason for it. Donald Trump is our president.
We have to make sure this never happens again.
In fact, there was a meeting. believe, I don't
want to say the tech company because I might
be incorrect, but one of the people, one of the
main people at this tech company specifically
said at the meeting, we have to make sure this
doesn't happen again. As in Trump being president.
They did a fucking horrendous job there, didn't
they? Well, they fucked up. But the point being,
imagine you are in control of an enormous platform,
an enormous media platform that controls the
discourse of... Untold billions of people in
the world and you have a very specific mandate
that you've given to the people that work for
you. We have to make sure that we control who
the king is. Because that's what you're saying.
You're saying we got to make sure this doesn't
happen again. Well, how do you do that? How do
you do that if 50 % of the people don't agree?
By force. There's only one way. You have to do
it by force. Or if you control the narrative,
then you just hide information. You accelerate
information that's incorrect. You just ban people
from communicating. You kick people out. Well,
I mean, some people would say that getting to
choose who's king is what you do if you then
buy that social media platform. Sure. There's
an argument for that, like what Elon did. There's
a real argument for that. But there's also an
argument for don't you think it's a good idea
if we have at least one of these motherfuckers
that's huge that you can go wild, wild west on?
And say whatever you want. I think that's very
important. You don't have to agree with them.
There's all these tools you can use. One of them
is the mute button. You can mute people. Bye
-bye. I don't want to hear you anymore. You're
annoying. Or you can ban them. I don't even want
you looking at my page. Get out of here. Those
things exist. You can curate who you're communicating
and interacting with. But if you don't have one
of these groups that's resistant to... intelligence
agencies shutting down legitimate voices, including
during the COVID times. It was guys like Jay
Bhattacharya from Stanford, guys from MIT, because
they were saying something that didn't jive with
what the agenda that Fauci was pushing through.
Where do you think we're at now? If you were
to sort of predict what the trajectory of the
speech stuff is online, talk about America, UK,
I think is just a lost cause. Do you think that
we're going to continue on this? general path
which seems to be a little bit more sanity yes
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way to hire. Elon's purchase of Twitter. When
Elon purchased Twitter, and I don't say this
lightly, I think he changed the course of civilization.
I really do. I think we were on our way to this
weird dystopian censorship complex that was already
moving. We had already had intelligence agencies
that were contacting Twitter. We know this through
the Twitter files. And they were banning... certain
people that weren't saying incorrect things,
but they were saying things that were inconvenient.
And they turned out to all be accurate. All the
things that they were warning about, all the
things that they're saying all turned out to
be accurate. They stopped the distribution of
the Hunter Biden laptop story by the New York
Post. The New York Post, the second oldest newspaper
in America. It's a fucking huge newspaper. To
stop that from being able to be distributed on
Twitter. Which turn it would turn out to be a
totally accurate story and to stop that accurate
story is wild That is scary stuff that if Elon
didn't purchase Twitter We would have just had
to deal with that kind of stuff that would be
and it would accelerate it wouldn't stay where
it is It would ramp up it would get more there
were they were started using the term Mal information,
so there's misinformation Disinformation and
then malinformation. Malinformation is factual
information that might cause harm. Can you give
me an example of malinformation? Children don't
need a COVID vaccine. That's malinformation because
it is true. Statistically speaking, like especially
healthy kids, they kick it off like it's nothing.
They don't need a vaccine for that. But that
might cause people to not get vaccinated. That
might kill your grandmother. So that's malinformation.
Can you think of an example of malinformation
where it's justified in doing that? Yes. I would
say like if you had some information. And you
were you were releasing it online. That was an
accurate depiction of some things that the federal
government is involved with that would compromise
national security to people overseas. Yeah. We
get people killed. How to start conflicts. Here's
another one that I've just thought of. You know
those desktop DNA printers? This is how to put
smallpox together. Right. Right. Something like
that. Something which is true but would be dangerous.
And the devil's in the fucking details. 100%.
With stuff like this. It's never binary. It's
never incorrect or correct. Sometimes it's binary.
Sometimes. I shouldn't say never. Some things
are binary. Sure. Like whether or not you should
win a fucking World's Woman Stronglifting. Strong
man, power woman competition. That just happened.
I thought we were done with that. It just happened.
Would you know why it was able to happen? It's
because that person lied. That person lied about
their sex. Oh, interesting. Jamie, can you try
and pull up an image of the current 2025 world's
strongest woman winner, please? Just for clarity,
Mitchell Hooper. That is the world's strongest
man, Canadian dude. He's 6 '3", 330. The person
who won woman's strongest man is 6 '4", and 400
pounds. She makes the current world's strongest
man look like an infant. Oh, world's strongest
woman, woman stripped of title after organized
discovery she was born a man. That was an hour
ago, dude. Okay, so an hour ago they stripped
her. Is that the person? Yep, Jamie Booker, disqualified.
That's a man? Are you sure? It appears the athlete
who is biologically male and now identifies as
female competed in the women's open category.
They were unaware of this fact ahead of the competition
and have been urgently investigating. I want
to know what urgent investigation is. They went
on Twitter. So that's a biological male. That's
interesting. Correct. It looks like just a big
lady. Had we been aware or had this been declared
at any point before or during the competition,
this athlete would not have been permitted to
compete in the women's open category. The move
comes after runner -up Andrea Thompson, British,
hey, was filmed storming off the podium as she
raged about the bullshit decision toward the
title. So the other competitors evidently knew.
Okay, so Thompson is now the winner. So the UK
gets the gold. I think about this. so much when
it comes to sporting competitions and it's not
just with the the trans thing although this is
a huge deal and i did think that we kind of got
past it how horrible is it to be the person who
won but had that moment the podium moment stolen
from you by somebody i think there's a a weightlifting
olympics weightlifting championship final where
currently like the 11th place finisher is now
first because each person has progressively got
popped for PEDs. Number one did, then number
two did, then number three did. It's like 11
people have been popped for PEDs now. Well, that's
the Tour de France. You know, when they took
away Lance Armstrong's title, so the Tour de
France, what they didn't tell you that if you
want to go and remove all of the people that
have tested positive for something, you got to
go down to like 18th place. For real. For real.
Like all those guys were doing something. They
were all blood doping. They were all taking EPO.
They were putting motors in their fucking bikes.
I've seen a video of that. Yeah. These guys try
for fucking every edge humanly possible. So,
you know, he was just a scapegoat. But what he
was doing was he was suing people that were saying
that he did PEDs. It's a smart way to silence
them. But, yeah. Sort of. I would be really interested
to see what the reaction is. That's fucking wet
clay stuff, right? Hot off the press a couple
of hours ago that it's been rescinded. I think
we would be more outraged if they accepted this
transgender person as a female and then say,
oh, a trans woman's a woman. Let her compete.
It seems like this person lied. And so that's
different. But still identify. I agree that it's
reassuring to see what the world's strongest
person organization decided that they were going
to do in a sort of repercussion to it. But you
can already predict, both of us can already predict
what's going to happen online, that this person
shouldn't have been stripped of their title.
Maybe they lied, but they should be competing
inside of this. The side of the aisle that always
agrees with this, do you not think that they're
going to be pro? I think that is... slowly but
surely losing traction and support. I really
believe that. I believe that's where the rubber
meets the road because you're going to lose most
women that have ever done a sport. You know,
if you are a sedentary woman that has no interest
whatsoever in athletic competition and you think
it's more than a good price to pay to let biological
males who identify as women because we want them
to be exclusive, it's more important to recognize
and affirm their identity than it is to be fair.
You haven't done any sports. So you're going
to lose not just most of the men. You're going
to lose a lot of you lose anyone. Right of center,
like libertarian, anyone, anyone. You're going
to not just lose all of the right. You're going
to lose a. A giant chunk of the center. Because
I think the center in this country is probably
the most rational of all groups. Those are the
people that recognize kind of a little bit of
everything here. Right of center or left of center.
You're going to lose all those people and you're
going to lose most women. You're going to lose
most women that have daughters. You're going
to lose them. The only ones you're not going
to lose are the fucking kooks. The SSRI. filled
up, anti -anxiety medication, transitioning happy
kooks. Those fucking kooks that think that you
have a hierarchy of who's oppressed the most.
Trans people are people. Trans women are women.
And they want to scream it out and yell it. They're
just crazy. You're going to have those people
that are going to be with it no matter what.
Get into the boxing ring with that trans woman
who's a woman. I thought the one that was a man
that lied, the Olympic champion, that they just
took away his gold medal. I saw that flip -flop.
That story flip -flopped back and forth like
10 times. It was like a Christopher Nolan movie
to me. Well, because that person was threatening
to sue a bunch of people, right? They were threatening
to sue a bunch of people that called them a male.
Made a statement, rescinded it, made a statement.
Let's put this through perplexity or something.
Where we can figure out what – I want to know
what the number is. I want to know what's true.
Because what I think is there was another organization
that did a chromosome analysis and found out
this person had an XY chromosome. So this is
a specific type of disease or genetic abnormality
where your testicles don't drop. Fucking edge
cases again, dude. Edge cases. It's so strange.
Ask it. Did that person get their gold medal
taken away and why? Yes, they did. Right. And
why? I know, but let's see what it says in terms
of why. Why? Because they're a man. And how did
they find out? Find out how they found out. Because
I think the narrative is that there was another
boxing organization that had already suspected
something was up. Did some testing. Did some
testing. Found out this person has an XY chromosome.
Used that. So. Won the Golden Women's 66 kilogram
boxing event strip. Now a derecognized International
Boxing Association previously disqualified Khalif
from the 2023 Women's World Championships after
she failed eligibility tests under its own rules.
Later claimed those tests showed she was ineligible
for women's competition because of these tests.
IBA officials, some media and advocacy groups
have publicly demanded the IOC strip or reclaim
her gold medal, arguing that she could not have
been. allowed in the woman's – should not have
been allowed in the woman's category. Like they're
still saying she. Despite those demands, IOC
has defended allowing Khalif to compete in Paris,
describing the IBA's disqualification decision
as arbitrary and saying she met the IOC's eligibility
criteria at the time. So what is the IOC's –
what is their – eligibility criteria. Boxing
must be a fucking nightmare for this because
of all of the different organizations that exist.
And each one is going to have its own different
set. We have a coordination problem here. Here's
an even more, here's a bigger nightmare. Prisons.
Prisons have a self -identity thing in order
to be eligible for female prisons. There's a
lot of prisons, including, I believe, New Jersey,
California. California has 47 biological males
that are housed in women's prisons. Okay. At
least. Who runs a prison? Is it the state? Is
it an independent organization? Well, some of
them are independent. Some of them are privately
owned. Chromosome test results were kept confidential
by the IBA but were leaked after and widely reported.
The IOC nonetheless rejected IBA's findings as
arbitrary, even with the chromosome test. That's
really standing your ground. Oh boy, you silly
gooses. Well, see, this was only 2024. So to
say that maybe this is the landmark case, maybe
it wasn't Leah Thomas as a swimmer, maybe it
was somebody in a physical sport. But I mean,
when we're talking about the strong woman competition,
dude, if you're 6 '4", I think the next tallest
woman was 5 '8", or 5 '7". Think about what you're
doing. You're like wrapping your arms around.
You can... It always gets slippery, right? Because
it's like, well, there's not very many of them.
So why are we making such a big deal out of it?
And it's like, hey, if there's one rapist in
the local community, you don't go, well, there's
only one of them. Like, what's the chances that
you run into? It's like, no, no, no. We try and,
you know, treat this problem. So first off, there's
not many of them. Then, well, you know, look
at what happens when you take... these estrogen
you down regulate your testosterone it's below
this particular level therapeutic and you go
well yeah but it's like being on a heavy course
of steroids up until you stopped doing that and
then how much of that does carry over that gets
a bit slippery but just the size the size of
the hands of a person who's six foot four and
400 pounds compared with a woman who's probably
like 220 and five foot eight like grip strength
being able to do like that's pretty important
in the sport of strong woman all of it is wrapping
your arms around an atlas stone Yeah, you could
do this forever. It's all ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
It's not the same. It doesn't mean that someone
shouldn't be able to change their name and identify
as a woman. It's just like you can't dominate
women's sports. You can't dominate women's spaces.
You can't. You're not a woman. We'll call you
one if we want to be nice. But the reality is
biological sex is a real thing. And when it comes
to competition, physical competition, there's
a reason we have Title IX in America. There's
a reason why we recognize women's sports. There's
a reason why you have it set up that women will
compete against each other because it's fair.
It's not fair to make women. Or else you'd just
have a unisex category. Yes. And it would be
dominated by men. Dominated by men. And then
girls wouldn't have this amazing opportunity.
to get scholarships, which they're being denied
because biological males are winning in their
category because they allow them to compete.
And there's a thing called, this is what people
don't want to believe, but it's true. It always
has existed. No, they're doing this because they
really are a woman. There's a thing called sandbagging,
okay? And sandbagging has always existed. Sandbagging
is, let's say that you're going to enter into
a jujitsu tournament and you're going into the
purple belt division. But you've been a purple
belt for eight years and you're supposed to be
a brown belt. And they, you know, for whatever
reason you or you could even here's a worse one.
Maybe you're a black belt in judo, like an elite
black belt, and you enter into a jujitsu tournament
in the white belt division. And you're in there
with some fucking dork who's a plumber who's
just started taking classes. I think it would
be fun to compete. And you fucking flip him on
his head and break his arm in an arm bar in like
15 seconds. Like, that's sandbagging. Because
you're an elite athlete. You're like a world
-class judo guy that's just... thought it would
be fun to put a white belt on and enter into
a jiu -jitsu tournament. There's people that
do that because they just want to win. That's
why people cheat at video games. That's why people
cheat at golf, right? People cheat because they
want to win. They just want to get that W. And
there's people that will pretend they're a woman
to beat up women. And if you don't think that's
the case, you haven't met enough psychos. Because
are there people that are in the wrong body?
I don't know. I'll give them that respect. Give
them that dignity. Are there also people that
are out of their fucking mind and want an excuse
to beat up women and pretend they're a woman
if you tell them they could wear a dress and
they could just run past all the ladies and dominate
them on the field? Yeah, they're going to do
that too. That's a real type of human being.
And if you don't have an accurate test for that,
if you don't have a thing you make them lick,
oh, you're a fucking psycho. If you don't have
that, then you have to judge each individual
situation. based entirely on why would someone
do this? How much crossover would that be? If
somebody was a black belt in judo, how much crossover
is there to - An immense amount. Yeah. An immense,
an immense, immense, immense, immense, immense
amount, especially if it's a gi tournament. Oh
my God, you're virtually helpless. Helpless.
Even though judo is primarily done on the feet?
It is, but they do arm bars. They do. Look at
Ronda Rousey. She has one of the best arm bars
in the history of the sport. Look at Kayla Harrison.
Look at all these judo. Look at Carl Parisian.
There's elite judo people that were wizards at
arm bars, wizards at chokes and leg locks. And,
of course, they're submitting each other as well.
It's not exactly the same. And if they went,
like, gi to gi. with, you know, some prime Leo
Vieira, black belt, you know, G Master, you know,
what a... you likely would give the jiu -jitsu
person a giant advantage because they'd spend
way more time submitting people. They'd spend
way more time working on submissions. So judo
to jiu -jitsu in a tournament, I would say, black
belt to black belt, they probably have a disadvantage
in judo. But a huge advantage over a white belt.
What do you think about Jake Paul Anthony Joshua?
Boy. Well. But realistically, it's one of the
craziest propositions of all time. You take a
guy who just had a boxing match that looks like
a sparring match with a 58 -year -old Mike Tyson,
and then you're going to fight one of the absolute
scariest knockout artists in the heavyweight
division. Maybe we should watch the Francis Ngannou
fight. Let's watch that real quick. Just so you
can see what Anthony Joshua is capable of. if
he's fighting someone that's not in his league.
Okay, look, Usyk beat him, and he beat him twice,
and Andy Ruiz caught him in the first fight and
dropped him and stopped him. It was spectacular.
Andy Ruiz is super fucking talented. Usyk is
perhaps the greatest heavyweight boxer of all
time. Maybe one of the greatest of all time in
any weight class, Usyk. And Usyk beat him, and
he beat him twice. Francis Ngannou is coming
off of this fight with, like, go a little bit
before that so we can see this happen. Watch
this. So he drops him with a right hand early.
And this is, like, two minutes into the first
round. And Francis gets up. He survives. And
then Joshua, check out this combination he hits
him with. I mean, dude, the speed that he hits
him with this, he's so dangerous, man. It's like
you're dealing with a guy who's an Olympic gold
medalist, and he's enormous, and he's got vicious
knockout power, and he's got immense amount of
experience at world -class levels. Just think
about what we said earlier. Fought Usyk twice.
Fought Andy Ruiz twice. Bro, the timing in that
right hand, just spectacular. That's a stepping
in as well. Over the top. I mean, that was a
full four shot to the temple. I mean, he's, he's
fucksville right now. So they wipe off his gloves,
but you look at him like he's, he's really feeling
it right now. I mean, he probably has no idea
where he is. And Anthony Joshua. Oh my God. Absolutely
folded in half. Watch the back that up again.
Watch this. I mean, just steps into it with every
ounce of his body. Perfect right hand. So the
fact that Jake Paul wants to fight that guy.
Hey, I'll watch. I'm going to watch. I'm definitely
going to watch. So you got me there. And if you
want to show you're legit by taking on one of
the scariest fucking heavyweights alive. Can
you get the tail of the tape of the. Paul and
Joshua? They got him to weigh a greater of 245.
That's only like seven pounds less. Yeah, that's
nothing. And there's some sort of a rehydration
clause. Listen, kids, it ain't going to matter.
There's not a chance that Anthony Joshua is not
going to just lose the weight beforehand. He's
not going to come in drained. What he's going
to do is just do extra cardio, and that's just
going to make him more dangerous. He's going
to be terrifying, and he's going to have a lot
to prove. He's going to be very angry that Jake
Paul wants to fight him. Very upset that this
YouTuber who's fought Tommy Fury, who's a legit
boxer, and, you know, a couple other guys that
were legit boxers. That's it. Like, everyone
else he's fought, he's fought Ben Askren, who's
really a wrestler. You know, he fought Tyron
Woodley, who's an elite MMA fighter, but, you
know, not an elite boxer. He fought Nate Robinson,
who was a basketball player. He fought Anderson
Silva, and he dropped Anderson Silva, and Anderson
Silva's a really good striker. But also in his
40s, you know, different time. It's, you know,
not the same guy he used to be. This is a 34
-year -old Anthony Joshua. This is a terrifying
human being. Terrifying. Again, a guy who survived
Usyk twice. You know, you saw what Usyk did to
Dubois. You see Usyk take out Dubois. Did you
see that? I mean, that's the Usyk you're talking
about. There's an Usyk that rocked Tyson Fury,
who's fucking 6 '9". So Jake Paul's 6 '1". This
is 6 '6", Anthony Joshua. Jake weighed in for
the Tyson fight at 199. Joshua against Ngannou
was 252. 6 '6". Not just 6 '6", but 6 '6", and
knows how to use every fucking inch of it. Knows
how to keep that stick in your face. He'll keep
that jab in his face, and that right hand, if
it hits you, you're fucked. And he's... not worried
about you the way he's worried about Usyk. You
can't move like Usyk. You can't constantly be
frustrating and overloading his nervous system.
Usyk is overloading every aspect of your senses
at every moment. He's constantly moving and then
punches are coming and he loops punches around
your guard and he's constantly shifting his feet
and you think he's going to be there and he's
over here. And it's like this overload of thinking.
It's not a casual, relaxed fight where you...
You can kind of move around and get your groove,
and he's going to stay on the outside. No, it's
just constant. He survived that guy twice. He
survived, in my opinion, the most skillful heavyweight
of all time twice. And you're going to go boxing?
And the toughest guy you've fought before was
40 -years -old Anderson Silva? Those are the
toughest guys so far you've fought? You've lost
to Tommy Fury, who's a very good boxer. But this
is a— giant Olympic gold medalist heavyweight.
I mean, Anthony Joshua is fucking terrifying.
Here's the thing that nightmares are made of.
And he's got that one -punch nuclear power. One
punch. And he's fast. It's an explosion. There's
certain guys... That like in kickboxing couldn't
translate over to MMA because they didn't have
the kind of speed. Like Peter Aerts is a good
example. He was a world class kickboxer, one
of the best of all time, but didn't have the
style that would allow him to train. But then
there was Mirko Krokop. Mirko Krokop, who was
violently explosive, would perfectly transition
to MMA because you got to be able to hit people
quick. It was like a big part of it is speed.
Anthony Joshua. has that kind of speed. With
252 pounds behind him. If you don't have the
skill to get away from that kind of power, what
happens is Francis Ngannou and Anthony Joshua.
You have to be a very... You can't judge that
guy based on Dubois, who's a fucking murderer.
Daniel Dubois is a tank, and he took out Joshua.
But that guy's fucking terrifying. You're staring
in front of that guy, but Usyk didn't stand in
front of him. Usyk moved all over the place.
Joshua is, and he's going to have a lot to prove.
He's going to be very angry. Do you think they'll
let everybody take the brakes off because there's
all rumors about Tyson versus Jake that both
of them were sort of pulling punches and not
fully letting it go? I think that's a different
deal. Do you think there was something probably
just below the table? I do not know. I do not
know if it was said. I do not know if it was
understood. I do not know. In your professional
opinion, based on what you saw, do you think
that the people were holding back? It definitely
looked like sparring. But it could be that he
didn't want to hurt Mike Tyson because Mike Tyson's
58 years old. Or it could be that Mike Tyson
didn't want to hurt him because he likes him.
I don't fucking know. But it wasn't what I was
tuning in for. It was not for me. I was there.
I went to it live. I was tuning in for Mike Tyson
coming full 1988 Mike Tyson, full chaos. That's
what I was hoping for. We walked out like that.
It looked like it. Yeah, but that's what everybody
signed up for. So they got us. Whatever. And
do you think that... This is different. I don't
think this is that. I don't think this is that
at all. First of all, it can't be that. Because
Joshua is still competitive in the heavyweight
division. And he's only doing this for money.
He's still set up for world title fights. After
he knocked out Ngannou, you could still set him
up. Like Joseph Parker just lost. You could set
him up with Joseph Parker. You could have...
Until a year ago, he could fight Deontay Wilder.
You're saying that the lineage and the trajectory
that Anthony Joshua is on... if he happens to
go a little bit too gentle and lose by decision
to Jake Paul, it doesn't exactly look great for
his future heavyweight chances. It fucks up all
of his marketing opportunities. So that's a really...
So what we were saying before... The Ngannou
fight is a godsend to him, right? The Ngannou
fight is like, hey, boxing's back. This guy knocked
down Tyson Fury. This is how it was supposed
to go. Anthony Joshua, you carried the torch
for the boxing community. Because I know a lot
of straight -up boxers, and they absolutely felt
that way. This is what needed to happen. These
guys can't come over from MMA and think they...
They can box the best. Yeah. You need to put
them in their place. What's great there, and
it loops back to what we were talking about before,
is incentives, incentives, align the incentives.
Yeah. Like if you've got Joshua's – I mean this
is – However, I should – Caveat. Yeah. Here's
the caveat. This might earn him $200 million.
So if it earns him so much money – Joshua or
Jake Paul? Joshua. Like either one. How much
money is involved? $200 million? Oh, dude. This
is a Saudi organization, right? This is Riyadh
season, isn't this? That was putting this on?
Probably. They seem to own everything. I think
they own me now. And you and Jamie and Carl.
It's Netflix, right? Right, yeah. This is going
to be on Netflix. Okay, so I don't know. Maybe
it's not. maybe in Riyadh season is not involved,
but the money they threw Canelo Alvarez to get
him to fight Terrence Crawford, they're throwing
insane money at people. They're throwing nutty
sums of cash at people to make amazing fights
happen. This has always been the hiccup in boxing
is that people don't want to fight certain people
because they want to protect their record. The
Saudis are like, how much? Everybody's got a
price. Yeah, everyone's got a price. We've got
the bank account to pay it. So here it is. The
reported total prize purse for Jake Paul versus
Anthony Joshua is $184 million. With an even
split expected, meaning each fighter will earn
approximately $92 million. Some reports initially
suggest a different figure. $184 is the most
frequently cited total from sources like Daily
Mail and Wikipedia. Okay, that doesn't mean anything.
Some have also mentioned Jake Paul's cryptic
$267 million tweet, which may have fueled rumors.
Listen, it really depends on who's setting it
up. Netflix doesn't have to tell you how much
they're paying. But the thing about Anthony Joshua,
if he loses this, so let's say he's only getting
the $92 million, which I bet he's getting more.
Let's say he's getting $92 million. If he loses
this fight, he misses out on that Saudi money
because they could set up a Tyson Fury, Anthony
Joshua fight, and each one of them gets... $200
million. You can do a fight like that. The Saudis
can do a fight like that. They can do a fight.
They have enough resources to throw at boxing
where they can change the entire landscape of
boxing. If you were the guy that stands in between
6 '6", 250 -pound Anthony Joshua and $200 million,
I'm sorry. I don't think he's going to lose to
you on purpose. I don't want to be that guy.
But I'm not saying that anybody lost to anybody
on purpose. I don't think that's happened. But
what I do think is that people take it easier
on people if they like them, and it looked like
they were taking it easier on each other than
you'd expect. I'll just say that. It's just my
personal opinion. I don't think that's going
to happen with this fight. I don't think there's
any chance in the world. Knowing what Anthony
Joshua is a specialist at, he's a specialist
at putting knuckles through your fucking brain.
And that's what he's going to try to do to Jake
Paul. And anything other than that from a 34
-year -old Anthony Joshua will make us all think
it's a fixed fight. Whether or not Joshua can
do it, whether or not... Jake Paul shocks the
world and shows us that he really does know how
to box really well and moves really good and
uses his jab and blows us all away with a strategy
and a lot of footwork and movement and brings
Usyk into his camp. Or Lomachenko's dad, even
better, who's the guy who trained Usyk. He trained
Usyk as well. Lomachenko's father. That's why
they both are the best moving fighters in this
generation, by far. By far. They're in a group
of the greatest of all time, like Willie Pepp
and Pernell Whitaker. There's a group of defensive
wizards that exist today. They're in that group.
And two of them that exist in that group are
trained by the same guy. Lomachenko and Usyk.
I don't want to be Jake Paul. Yeah, fuck that.
I do not want to be. What better way to show
the world you're legit? Go get knocked out by
Olympic gold medalist, former world heavyweight
champion, 6 '6", 250 pounds. Yeah. Show the world
you're ready to win it. You're definitely not
fucking about. I had this guy on my podcast,
Bugsy Malone. He's a British grime artist. What's
a grime artist? Like drill, rap. Oh, okay. Did
you know what that means? You did? Keep up with
the times. I can't. It's too late. I missed it.
I missed everything. He grows up in the north
of the UK in gangs, Manchester. And he's in juvenile
detention as a teenager. He gets stabbed with
a screwdriver, like rough stuff, rough, rough
northern stuff. But some part of his upbringing
just sort of really compels him to try and. bring
himself out of this situation starts making music
gets super successful does this fire in the booth
with charlie sloth that gets like 35 million
plays and he starts boxing boxing is like one
of his um salvagers it's one of his safe havens
and it's the thing one of the things that's kept
him very disciplined throughout his whole life
he starts accumulating some money he buys a nice
house in manchester very very nice house and
the local kids nearby sort of Starting to take
a little bit of notice. Maybe they know who he
is as an artist. And word starts to get around
that he's living there. There'd been some concerns,
some security concerns for a little while. And
he gets a phone call from his girlfriend at the
time. She says, there's some men here. They're
trying to break in and they're in a van. And
as she's on the phone, he hears the glass shatter
of this house. His mum's in the house and his
girlfriend at the time is in the house. He's
driving around. He's got his sister in the car.
So he drives back in the car. This is a guy who's
world famous as a rapper. This would be like
it happening to the British 50 Cent or the British
Jay -Z or P. Diddy or something like that. Drives
back, getting down the driveway toward this house.
There's a blockade. There's boulders that have
been laid out in front. So he knows that there's
going to be an ambush of some kind. And he sees
this guy in the bushes on the right with a brick.
This guy's hiding in the bushes waiting. And
he thinks he's going to throw it through the
window, but he doesn't. He wants to hit him with
the brick. Bugsy stops the car, opens the door,
and immediately he's massively into Jordan Peterson,
personal development, self -growth. It's like
an odd blend of rough upbringing, self -discipline,
and sort of transcendent personal growth. And
he gets out of the car and points at the guy,
and he goes, no way is that you. Is that a blue
T -shirt? And the guy's like, what? And as he's
doing it, because he's been training so much,
he's coming toward him, distracting him. The
same way as I go, what's on that T -shirt there?
Immediately you go, and before he knew it, Bugsy's
hit him. spun him around, bricks falling out
of his hand because this guy hasn't set his feet
in time. It's the problem of having a big weapon.
Bugsy said, like, you need to set yourself and
you need to be able to throw it. Like, it's good
because it can hurt someone, but it's slow and
it's cumbersome and you can't move as fast. And
he's training every day, every single day, no
matter whether he's rapping, he's on tour, he's
training and he's boxing and he's fighting and
he's sharp. He knows his distance. Hits this
guy, they have a scrap. Bugsy wins, moves the
stuff out of the way. Gets back in the car, drives
in. Jamie, can you just CCTV search? Search Bugsy
Malone CCTV. So there's footage from his house
of when he pulls up in the Mercedes. And so go
back, back, back a little bit. Yeah, just to
the start. So this is him pulling in, in his
car, having just beaten someone up. This is a
van filled with guys. Gets out of the car, pulls
his top off. and then sprints to go and get the
rest of the guys that are waiting outside. That
is not the behavior of a dude who gives a single
fuck. This is the British Jay -Z ripping his
top off and then sprinting out to try and chase
people away. And the real kicker of it, there
was like tons of guys, not in that van, but in
some other van behind. The real kicker was the
dudes that he fought, they pressed charges. They
pressed charges against him. Because he's rich.
They pressed charges because he fucked him up.
And then at the... Oh, they pressed charges.
They pressed charges against him. Did they actually
wind up going to court over this? Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah. No. Yep, went to court. And this
is, it was so brilliant. He told this story to
me. And he said, it was the middle of COVID and
people weren't sure whether venues were going
to be open. And he had this tour. This tour was
going on, but it wasn't selling. as well no tours
were selling as well as he would have liked so
he spoke to his lawyer before his lawyer went
to go and do the not guilty verdict and they
had two statements that were ready he came out
he said very pleased to say that Aaron Davies
has been acquitted today he's not been found
guilty he is now getting back to preparing for
his upcoming tour and tickets are available now
His lawyer did a mid -roll ad read for his tour
as part of his not guilty verdict, having just
beaten up a van filled with blokes, one of whom
looked like a plumber. It was your plumber comment
that got me thinking about it. Just some white
belt, some guy that thinks he's a bit hard. He's
had a little bit of a thrower, and this guy's
training every single day, sharpening his skills,
and he's been doing it since he was a kid. That's
hilarious. He's dangerous, and he's nasty. It's
wonderful when a story like that works out. In
America, people have guns. It's different. Different
sport. Have you looked at appropriate force in
the UK? Do you know what that is? The use of
appropriate force? There's a lot of that in America
as well. Okay. Depending state by state. They
have different standards that different states
impose. Like Florida has stand your ground. Florida,
you just get away with killing people. California,
it's very different. They were actually trying
to pass a thing in California saying it's your
obligation to leave your house if someone breaks
into it. I don't know if that got through. It's
their house now. It's your obligation to not
shoot them, that you can't harm them because
they're just trying to steal something. They're
not trying to harm you. Like the assumption should
be that they're not trying to harm you. Exactly.
I've had this conversation with people on the
podcast, actually with Tommy Chong. It was a
mind -numbing conversation that you should not
think of this person as trying to attack you,
that their life is not less valuable than yours.
It's just as valuable as your life. You shouldn't
take their life. Despite the fact that they're
on your property. Despite the fact that, I can't
talk, despite the fact rather that historically
a lot of people have broken into people's houses
and killed them. It's happened over and over
and over again. You're just assuming that this
time is going to be different because they just
want your watch or whatever. Like, fuck off.
That's a dumb way to live. You have to be able
to protect yourself. There's crazy people. That's
a real thing. Yeah, I think the... appropriate
force thing becomes interesting in the UK where
you don't have as many guns because there's more
levels of weapon in between nothing, just hands.
Baseball bat and samurai sword. Yeah, this guy's
got a brick, so you're allowed a brick. But if
you bring a gun to a knife fight, that's not
appropriate force. Oh. You know what I mean?
He only had a knife. Yes. You cheated. It's like,
I don't know, it's very gentlemanly. Oh, God.
So stupid. Well, the UK's got, like, some odd
archaic laws. Like, the distance between the
front benches in the House of Commons is the
same as two broadswords held out at arm's length.
Which is just so funny. Well, that's also why
you guys drive on the other side of the road,
right? Why? I think you drive on the left side
of the road so you can use your right arm to
slash each other. No way. Yeah, I believe that's
what it is. What, in case you were jousting in
a vehicle? If you're on a horse or if you're
in a car, you want to be able to get them on
that side. That's the strong side. Someone told
me that when I was over there. I hope I'm not
incorrect. I like it as a story. Whether it's
right or wrong, I don't care. There's a reason
that women's shirts button from the left and
not the right. Have you ever accidentally put
your wife's hoodie on instead? It goes in the...
Middle Ages, you knew you were going to meet
when traveling on horseback. Most people are
right -handed, so if a stranger passed to the
right of you, your right hand would be free to
use your sword if required. Yeah, that's why
you guys do it with your cars. Well, this is
the problem. If you don't have a medieval country
like ours, you end up driving on the other side
of the road. But yeah, so women's shirts, if
you've ever accidentally put your wife's hoodie
on or something, zipped it up, women's shirts
button from the other side. They button from
the left, not the right. The reason for that
is that when buttons were first introduced in
the 1700s, they were mostly for the aristocracy,
and the aristocratic women were dressed by mostly
right -handed servants. Whoa. So they dressed
them this way. So the women's shirts, button...
Still to this day? Same thing. Dude, I promise
you now. Anybody that's watching, any guy that's
watching, go and put your wife's shirt on. This
is how it begins. Go and put your wife's shirt
on and see. It doesn't fold that way. Right.
It folds the other way. And you have to push
the buttons through with your left hand. How
fucking cool is that? That's crazy. And it's
the same with hoodies. You know, we zip our hoodies
with our right hand. Girls zip their hoodies
with their left hand. Oh, wow. So fucking cool.
Weird. One other element is the gentlemen of
the days, they would have a sword on the left
hip drawn by the right hand. The way that our
shirts are put together at the moment, it can't
get caught in the folds. because the left fold
is over the top of the right. So as you draw
it, there's no chance that the hilt would get
caught. So if you're a left -handed person, you
have to wear women's clothes. That might actually
explain more than you think. Probably. So this
is an example of path dependency, what you're
talking about, like some shit from the past that
influences the future. QWERTY keyboards, same
thing. Yeah, I know that one. Typewriters, yeah.
So it was made to be inefficient, to slow people
down. And if you take a normal typer from a QWERTY
keyboard and put them on some other formulation
that's allowed, they're like 50 % to 70 % faster.
So we're still using a designed to be inefficient
keyboard because if you type too quickly on a
typewriter and you use letters that are close
together, the typewriter jams. So the letters
that were used most frequently were put out onto
the edges and it was less often that you were
going to put two next to each other so that they
wouldn't jam. I don't know a single person who
switched to a different type of keyboard. Do
you? No. No one. Lex Friedman's got some weird
super nerd thing. Oh, but his is just separated.
He's just got it separated. It's still QWERTY.
Like this? Yeah. Oh. It's almost like a... Yeah,
that's kind of interesting, but that's not the
point. The point is the layout of the keys in
a regular keyboard. There's other layouts. So
it's not just QWERTY's not available. You could
actually buy keyboards that have the most efficient
layout. I forget what the name of it is. I think
it might be the Dactyl thing. Hot Swap Dactyl.
I think that's it. The very top. I think that's
it. I think. Up and right. Yeah. Yeah. Hot swap
dactyl. Maybe. That's just for sale though. What
is it? It's still a QWERTY keyboard. It's still
QWERTY. I can't get away from it. So there's
other layouts. If you could search what styles
of key, what is the most efficient layout of
keys for typing speed? That's what I do. Yeah.
That's what I ask. This, what's coming up, this
shit is way faster than typing. Okay, yeah, right,
right, right. But that's a different thing. It's
the fastest keyboard for typing. Wow. You can
type. Hold on. Let's look at that for a second.
You haven't seen this before? No. Yeah, it's
like directions. How does it work? I'll show
you on a demo. Wow. Car recorder. This is crazy.
And each one of those is a letter? And some of
them... You can make words real fast. Oh. So
what we're talking about right here is a totally
different device than a keyboard. But what I
mean is there's another keyboard layout that
super nerds use. Like a tiny amount. The kind
of people that have those Google phones that
don't connect to the servers. Didn't Eric Prince
make those? No, that's a different one. He's
got his own. Yeah, just that path dependency
thing, like shit from the past that's still influencing
us now. Yeah. Why your shirt is going in the
other direction. That's pretty crazy. Okay, so
here it is. Whoa. Not the best demo. Hmm. I wonder
how much of a learning curve there is to figuring
out how to type with that thing because it looks
pretty dope. Ooh, they have different ones. Scroll
up to that image at the top. That's a different
one. I think it's the same. It's just a... But
shaped different. Yeah, just like made out of
metal. Right, but it's a different shape. You
probably put your hand... Well, maybe put your
hands on it the same way. It's very different.
The other one was curved. The problem that you
have is like... Is this the new one? The Forge,
the Master Forge. Let me see what you got here.
It's not showing any way to use it. That's how
I was trying to find a good way to use it to
show you how they type words really fast. I think
it's a matter of time before you're typing with
your brain anyway. I think this is like learning
to code. Yeah, well, I think about this with
prompt engineering. Like if AI gets progressively
better and better, the idea of being a prompt
engineer, I understand how to get the AI to do
what I want, is a job that only shortly after
it becomes a job, Might be made completely obsolete
100 % Yeah, yeah that that's not gonna work That's
like opening up a blockbuster video in 1999 There's
so little time. Well, the problem that you have
with the QWERTY keyboard thing is it's a coordination
problem. Like if you want to borrow your friend's
laptop, unless everybody decides, we're going
to switch to the better type of keyboard and
we're going to do it now. There you go. Here
he goes. He's moving it. He's typing it right
there. He's typing these words as he's looking
at the screen. Holy shit. How's he doing that?
That guy's a fucking genius. It's up to like
300 words a minute I think people can get to.
But here's the question. How do you learn? Do
you have to play a game? Do you ever do that,
like Mavis Bacon's typing? You ever do that?
No, what was that? It's fun. It's a game you
play. It teaches you how to type. Teaches you
how to type faster? Yeah, you type things that
they tell you to type. They time you like a race.
It's fun. He's hitting all these letters at once,
I think, with his fingers. You can see them popping
up, and then it creates the word. I think it's
a little bit of a mixture of, remember the T9
typing you could do on your phone? Yeah. You
could hit four numbers, and you'd know what word
it would be, and if it wasn't that word, you'd
hit next like three times. You could get really
good at that. I think it's a mixture. Predictive.
Could you rewind that again so I could see him
doing that? Can you give me some volume so I
can hear what he's saying? There's no question
that typing sentences at over 200 words per minute
is extremely satisfying, but does typing fast
actually transfer to productivity in the real
world? That's the question we'll be answering
together in today's video. Does typing speed
really matter? That's nuts. Wow. He just did
that. Wow. And he made but large. Yeah. Like
he made it all caps. I suppose this is kind of...
I need to know if that dude's a rain man. You
know what I'm saying? I need to ask him some
questions about math. Yeah. It's mad to think
how quickly we can think. and how slowly we can
communicate that to other people, even with speech,
right? Can you just please search, is there a
more efficient key layout than QWERTY? Because
that's what I'm looking for. Because I know there
is. Because I remember I went down a rabbit hole
with this, and I was really thinking about trying
it. And then I was like, God, what are you doing?
You'd have to change your phone. Yeah, and it
wasn't phone days. This was way before phone
days. This was the days of just typing. More
efficient keyboard layout than QWERTY. That's
it. Dvorak. That's it. Puts about 65 to 70 cent
of keystrokes in the home row versus roughly
30 on QWERTY. So fingers move much less. So now
that we know that, can you search for images
of Dvorak keyboard? So that's what the keys look
like right there. Oh, that's it right there.
See how different that is? Wow. Yeah, very different.
How long do you reckon it would take you to write
out a short email? It would take forever. My
stupid fingers would go right back to where they
always go. You know, that was one of the things
that I learned really early on from teaching
martial arts. I way would rather teach someone
who didn't know anything than teach someone who
learned things wrong. Because someone who learned
things wrong, it's very difficult to correct
their technique. They have a mode in their mind
that they shift to when they're panicky or when
they're being pressured. They always go back
to the bad technique, always. It's very hard
to get someone to learn technique correctly when
they know it incorrectly. You've got to re -teach
them everything. You see it with pool. There's
certain tendencies that people have with their
arm being out. A lot of people just accept the
bad relationship between your elbow and your...
As long as it's consistent. Even though it's
more inefficient, it's going to add extra English
to the ball and spin and all these different
things and probably make you less accurate. Maybe
better that than try to, like, make your arm
drop down and hang 90 % because it'll feel so
alien. But that's way less than in martial arts.
In martial arts, like, God, if you learn how
to throw a sidekick with your knee down versus
your knee up, it's so hard. to do it the other
way when you're being pressured you're always
going to do it the wrong way and you're not going
to have the the correct amount of power and those
tendencies that are burned into you i've been
typing for 30 years like they are i don't have
to look at a keyboard i can just talk to you
and i can type and i'm not really good but i'm
good enough you know i'm i don't look at the
keys like i don't have to pick like i used to
just drive me crazy watching videos of hunter
thompson who never learned how to type he would
type like this He would type with one finger
at a time, poke and peck. I'm like, dude, it
would take so little time for you to just put
your fucking fingers there and learn how to do
that right. He never did. He poked and pecked
his way to some of the greatest fucking books
ever. Maybe that was a performance enhancer.
But yeah, I... Well, he was poking and pecking
when he was on coke. That's true, yeah. It's
probably for the best that you didn't type more
quickly. Imagine the crazy shit that would have
come out of him then. Right, right, yeah. You
ever seen him type? It's so frustrating. No.
Can we see? Is it videos? Yeah. Oh, wow. Find
Hunter Thompson typing. Yeah, you'll see it.
It's pokey pecky. And Johnny Depp actually mimicked
it really accurately in Fear and Loathing in
Las Vegas. He's sitting in front of the thing
like pecking. Yeah, like doing his Hunter Thompson
impression. Pecking and poking. Well, your brain
can think at about 4 ,000 words a minute. And
that's the same rate of fire as an M134 machine
gun. Wow. So anything, even to your point of
very soon I think that keyboards are going to
be obsolete. When you think about how much fucking
fidelity and speed is lost with you going from
brain to thumb, like I wonder what another type
of keyboard is. And you've got to think, okay,
how do I? convert this into words where am i
going to go open the app type that oh crap man
fucking keyboard keyboard yeah but it is so slow
yeah compared with when we just get neural linked
up to each other yeah yeah and i'm sure you've
seen that where the two guys are sitting across
from each other and they have the headsets on.
They're asking each other questions and answering
the questions without using words. No, I've not
seen that. You haven't seen that? No. All right,
we'll show you that next. We'll show you that
next. What were we just looking up now? I can't.
I find pictures of him typing, but not video
of him typing. Oh, God, I don't want to see that.
Let me get in the bathroom. Let me get in the
bathroom. We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen.
It's time to pee. Where were we? Somebody typing
like a grandma. Yeah, the Hunter Thompson thing.
He couldn't really find it. You got Johnny Depp
doing it? Okay, this is how he typed. This is
completely accurate. This is a great video, by
the way. You should listen to this. It's an amazing
piece. You got to cut it out? Okay, we'll cut
it out. But that's it. That's how he poked. He
poked and pecked like that. So that's how Hunter
Thompson used to type. Out of his fucking bird.
Just poking. Oh, you found that? Okay. Okay,
this is the crazy one. The telepathic thing is
nuts because they have these headsets on and
these guys are laughing because they're asking
each other questions and they're answering the
questions and they hear the answer in their heads.
The other person hears the question and then
they hear the answer. So it's a new, I think,
I don't know if it's a product or what, but it's
called Alter Ego. This is the same guy who developed
that device where he could look things up without
opening his mouth or talking and just sort of
like mimicking the words in his... We all have
moments when it's sort of doing the same thing.
I'll sort of skip past it so he's talking. He's
showing it on his own here. The cool part is
when he brings in someone else to talk to. And
this guy also has it. So they're communicating.
Where do you want to get lunch after this? He's
saying. Where do you want to get lunch after
this? And for the demo, they hooked it up to
audio so that the video could hear it. Typhoon
could be good. So they're laughing because their
words are being... It doesn't matter where Arnav
and I are. It could be a noisy environment. So
would they hear this? It could be a noisy environment
or a quiet office. Having a direct conversation
is possible without saying a word. The signals
Alter Ego detects aren't affected by environmental
noise. So even if you're walking past a wind
tunnel or a construction zone, what you want
to say will always get across. It's like having
infinite noise cancellation. Exactly what people
say happens when they encounter aliens. Telepathy.
Exactly. Exactly. Someone's talking in your head
and you hear it. So imagine this technology scaled
out a thousand years and they probably don't
need the other person to have a headset anymore.
And they just... Would make for an interesting
podcast. Yeah, I guess. And you could just tune
in and nobody needs to actually listen to anything.
So where's the sound? Are they hearing the sound
in a set of headphones? It's hard. Not headphones.
They know it, right? They're not hearing it.
Honestly. I don't understand. Because if it was
really loud, then you wouldn't be able to hear
it. For the demo we just watched, they have it
hooked up to a speaker so we can hear what they're
hearing. But I think, if anything, it's got to
be some sort of jaw induction, but I don't know
that for sure. Well, there's weird earphones
that you can put on that don't go in your ear.
They go behind your ear, and they send the sound
into your dome. People use that for running,
right? Yeah. The sound that's going around. Fucking
creeps hiding in the bushes. They can hear the
creeps so they can get ready for them. You know
Cam Haynes, right? My buddy Cam? His brother
almost got killed by a mountain lion. Crazy story.
He put it on his Instagram. The day, the next
day, like he talked about the story, what happened.
He was running and there was a mountain lion
in the bushes. And at first he thought it was
a coyote. He just saw the eyes. He yelled and
then stood up and he realized it was a cat. And
it started running after him. And he's running
at night. It was in California. And he kicked
rocks at it. He screamed at it. And ultimately,
there's some dogs barking, and he thinks maybe
the dogs barking scared the mountain lion off
him. But he said it was like, I couldn't have
used, this is his quote, he said, I couldn't
have used bear spray, even if I had it, because
it would have got on me. That's how close it
was. He said it was right there, like right on
him. So it's the most scary he's ever been in
his life. I've seen that video of the guy tracking
backward. Oh, yeah. As it's coming toward him.
It's coming swinging. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
The only thing that gives me comfort about that
video, if I was there, is that thing just wants
to scare me. It's not trying to kill me. It wants
to scare me. That's a mother that's trying to
get you away from the cubs. Because the way it's
doing it, it's throwing its arms in the air in
a very intimidating way. If an animal was trying
to kill you, it wouldn't do that. They'd be running
full clip at you and just dive on your neck.
That's the difference between a cat that wants
to kill you and something that's trying to scare
you off. So the problem is you're backing up,
right? And the instincts of these predators,
like if you throw a ball of yarn by a kitten,
they dive on that ball of yarn. They can't help
themselves. And that's the thing about you backing
up or even you running. It's like you're exciting
their prey drive. Yeah, they're going to keep
tracking you. Right. So they tell you to stand
tall and be loud and make a lot of noise. But
there's a fine line between you being a threat
and then them being scared off, like you being
something they have to deal with, depending upon
the distance between each other. Oh, that makes
so much sense. Yeah. Have you ever had any run
-ins? I have never had an encounter like that,
but I did in the wild see an enormous mountain
lion once, but fortunately it was from inside
of a truck. Yeah. Me and my friend Colton, we
were in Utah. We were taking this turn, and it
was at dusk. So the sun was setting, and he stops
the truck, and he goes, look at that cat. And
I go, where? And I look over and I see the glowing
eyes from the setting sun, the glowing eyes reflecting
underneath this tree. And it's got this pumpkin
head, this big fucking, these mandible muscles
that just crush things and these massive forearms.
And it's just sitting, it's a big cat, man. Like
I've seen two other mountain lions before, but
they were small. They were like a dog sized.
This thing was fucking. You reckon you'd be able
to take a dog -sized mountain lion or are you
still dead? No, you're dead. A cat -sized cat
might fuck you up. A house cat might fuck you
up. A bobcat might fuck you up. A mountain lion
will kill you. You'd have to be an extraordinary
person with weapons to survive a mountain lion
hand -to -hand fight. You'd have to be an extraordinary
person who's really fighting to survive. And
you don't panic at all. You have to be willing
to stay calm. This thing's going to tear your
arms apart. It might tear your face apart. What
are the basics? I mean, you hunt all the time.
And you do, was it like end of September, you
went and did another big one last year? Yeah,
elk hunting, yeah. You must have been given whatever
the safety briefing that you have at the start
of an act. like aircraft taking off is of hey
man if you see this if you see this or if you
see this these are the ways that you're supposed
to behave no we don't get any safety briefings
but you must have learned it in the past yeah
as a part of safety briefing carry a gun bring
a gun with you point at a big scary thing even
if you're bow hunting carry a pistol especially
if you're in bear country if you're in bear country
you can't you can't depend on this this mist
making their eyes hurt keeping them off of you
because it might not work. I'll just run through
it. Yeah, there was a recent case in BC where
a bear mauled 11 people and they used bear spray
on it and it didn't work. I think it was a teacher
protecting his students. So shout out to that
teacher. He got fucked up. But they tried bear
spray. Bear spray is not effective. My friend
John, who lives up in Alberta, he used bear spray
on a grizzly once. He said it walked right through
it like it was nothing. Is bear spray basically
like hardcore pepper spray? Yeah. It's like vicious
pepper spray. But you're just going to get a
mad bear, you know? Why don't they make more
hardcore bear spray then? It's as hardcore as
it gets without killing you. Right. You know,
if it gets on you. If it's that noxious. It's
just supposed to be a deterrent. And sometimes
it can work. Like sometimes maybe they're just
curious and you spray them and they're like,
fuck this guy. And they get out of there. But
maybe sometimes no. You know, because it's like.
It's like tasing a guy. You ever see a guy get
tased and they just fucking run through it. There's
guys who get tased and they just go stiff and
they fall down. And I've seen other guys get
tased where they rip it right out of their arm.
Four people, including children, were hospitalized.
A teacher on crutches, second adult with. A second
adult was bear spray and a third person who punched
and kicked a grizzly despite serious injuries
are being praised for their actions. Saved a
school group attacked by a bear near Bella Coola,
British Columbia. Four people, including children,
were hospitalized Thursday after a bear attack
on students and teachers in the Nux Walk First
Nation while out on a school trip near the—boy,
I'm going to fuck this up—Akwalkta School east
of the remote community. Oh, so it was a very
remote place. Yeah. Bear spray didn't do anything,
man. It said, look, nothing phased it. Didn't
do anything to the bear. Two cans of spray in
the eyes of the animal. Look at that. They said
the teacher unloaded two cans of bear spray into
the eyes of the animal and it didn't do anything.
It blows my mind that people who have been through
something that scary. When the kids were getting
attacked, one of my cousins who had his skull
ripped ran towards the bear and jumped on it
with his bare hands. Holy shit. It's pretty hardcore.
That's hard. Well, that's primal life. You know,
that's survival in... like a real situation where
your language goes away. Another lady, a teacher
with crutches was whacking it, hitting it in
the eyes, the face, the head for minutes, and
then the bear finally... Imagine being on crutches.
Oh, my God. Well, it's just survival. It's so
reptilian. It's like a savage, savage moment.
That's what blows my mind about these situations
where... emotions are running so high, how people
are able to come back with any kind of memory
at all. Right. Because that amount of adrenaline
just completely warps people's memories. I was
learning about this case from Australia in the
70s. This lady gets attacked inside of her home.
So a guy breaks into the house and assaults her.
Inside of our home and she identifies this TV
psychologist this guy called Donald Thompson
Says it was this was the person who assaulted
me the TV psychology psychologist. Yeah. Yeah,
so she knew this guy from the TV He was the guy
that assaulted me that night the police go and
they arrest Donald Thompson take him in the next
day There's a lineup and the woman positively
identifies him and Donald Thompson's like that
couldn't have been me because I was actually
on television in front of a live audience at
the time. The arresting officer scoffs at him
and basically says, you might as well have Jesus
and the Queen of England as your alibis as well.
This is ridiculous. We know that she's been assaulted.
We've got photographic evidence of the marks
on her. We've done a DNA test, which is going
to come back soon. She's positively identified
you from the lineup and she called you out before
you were in the lineup as well. Like you're banged
to rights. But there was a wrinkle that when
they actually looked at the timing, he was on
TV at the time that this was happening. And what
had occurred was the woman had had that television
program on while the attacker broke in and sexually
assaulted her. Whoa. And it imprinted that guy's
face in her memory. Bingo. Wow. blended the attacker's
identity with what she was seeing on TV while
it happened. Wow. And the kicker, Donald Thompson
was on TV to discuss an area of psychological
speciality that he had, which was the unreliability
of eyewitness testimony. Whoa. Dude. Whoa. Did
you see that there's – someone sent me this video.
Pause this for a second. Darren Brown, the sidekick.
Have you seen the one – British dude. Yes. Have
you seen the one where he got a guy to assassinate
Stephen Fry? Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah, like MKUltra the guy
to take out an assassin. Was it called the jump
or something or the push? Yeah. Was it the push?
I don't remember, but I watched a clip of it
the other day. I'm like, this is so crazy that
you can actually do this to someone? And the
point of the article that I was reading on or
the post on X was, you're telling me that MKUltra
has not figured out a way to do this? You can
get a guy to do it with cameras, to do it on
Stephen Fry, the comedian. Obviously, he didn't
really kill him. I had a... Yeah, here it is.
So the assassin with Stephen Fry. So he somehow
or another gets this guy to do it. I guess we
can't play it. The point is... Fake gun? I don't
remember what he did. Yep. Oh, shit. They acted
it all out, too. That is so crazy. That's crazy.
That's so crazy. So that guy really thought he
killed Stephen Fry. Imagine being in the crowd.
How about those people next to him who didn't
even flinch? I'd be like, what kind of psychos
am I next to? She's the one whispering to watch.
She whispers. She's like, good job. I think she's
the one who set him off. Oh. She's in on it.
Now here's the question. Can anybody fall into
that kind of a hypnosis? Is that only certain
people that are suggestible? There's high, medium,
and low suggestibility people, and there's a
couple of tests. Dr. David Spiegel from Stanford,
he's like one of the world leaders in hypnosis,
and he explained some people are. more susceptible
to hypnosis than others, I have to assume that
Darren will have done a profile and this guy
is like really, really susceptible. Okay, what's
that about? Why is that around? Susceptibility
to hypnosis? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that
dopamine plays a big part of it. And if you process
dopamine more quickly, you are more susceptible.
I process dopamine really slowly. I know that
from doing some genetic tests. So I know that
my susceptibility to hypnosis would be lower.
There's some personality traits that make you
more or less likely as well. I think agreeableness
versus disagreeableness is one of them. I think
there'll be a sex difference too. I don't know
why it's there. It's kind of the same as saying
like, why are some people taller than others?
Like they just are. And there's like a byproduct
that comes along for the ride. But it's a weird
thing to be able to manipulate a person's mind
and to have it so clearly. I mean, this is the
clearest example of it you're ever going to see.
He just shot a famous person in a room full of
people. It does feel like a weird backdoor. Yeah,
that's what I'm getting at. It's like those voting
systems that can be hacked. Or like those cell
phone towers they buy from China that turned
out to be transmitting. Just sending everything
back to China. Why does that exist? That David
Spiegel guy taught me that. 25 % of people that
do a single session intervention for smoking
cessation quit for life. From hypnosis? One session,
25%. Get this. And I think if you do a couple
of sessions, that number starts to go up and
go up. So hypnosis is this really weird backdoor
into the human psyche. But yeah, the memory thing
is fucking crazy. When you think about, what
do I actually know? How do I know that this thing
happened in the past? Most people understand
there's like two types of memory failure. One
is I can't remember that thing. And the other
is I remember it, but I remember it incorrectly.
That's broadly two categories. And I think people
are really happy with the first one because there's
tons of shit that has happened to you. And you
go, yeah, I forget my memory or whatever, whatever.
But your experience of your own memory is your
only experience of your own memory. So for you
to be able to say my recollection is wrong. What
does that mean? That's like saying this dimension
that I'm in is wrong. So a lot of the time I
think people struggle to understand how often
their memory of a thing is present but inaccurate.
So, for instance, there's only 17 colors that
we remember on average. We don't remember, like
if I ask you what color is a tomato? Well, I
would say red, but really it's not. If it's heirloom.
It's typically red, but it's like a reddy orange
sort of color. Sure, but those are the bullshit
tomatoes, like a real heirloom tomato. I didn't
need to get into it. Because all kinds of different
purplish sort of. Tomato politics. That's a real
tomato, though. That's what a tomato really looks
like. Sorry. I know. Supermarket tomato. Yeah,
yeah. Kind of reddish orange. Reddish, reddish
orangish. But most people would default to the
red thing. Right, but not really. Yeah, but it's
not. And we sort of, we adjust. Right. So if
you're the guy. Like, we're white people. Uh
-huh. But we're not really white. Well, I mean,
you're a bit flush. Yeah, but we're not white.
You know what I'm saying? Comparatively white.
My friend Jamie, not this one, but another one.
He's from England, and he's white like paper.
And when my daughter first met him, that's what
she said. She goes, Mommy, he's so white. And
she goes, Yeah, he's white. And she goes, No,
no, he's white like paper. Well, if you live
in England, you will be referred to as white
like paper. Yeah. I mean, this must be the same
with fighters. Even if you forget the... TBI,
head trauma -y stuff, just the dump of adrenaline
from going through it. I mean, you must have
done this when you've done your biggest shows.
Yeah, you don't remember much. You come back
and you're like, I've worked my whole life to
get to the stage where I can achieve this thing.
And in the achievement of this thing, I kind
of wasn't really there. Well, I was there for
it, but in retrospect, I can't really recall
where I was. And it's this odd duality that you
want to be in a flow state. Yeah. It's very fulfilling.
It's where you're at your best. This word's just
coming out of you perfectly. And when you look
back, you're like, I don't know if I was there
fully. I feel like I was kind of absent. Well,
it's not that you're absent, but that you're
empty. You empty out all your expectations, and
you're on it for the ride. You're not really
piloting it as much as you're just making sure
it doesn't hit the rocks. You're there for the
ride. The thing takes over. And I think that's
the case with everything. That's the case when
you're in the flow state of anything you're doing.
The more you think about you being there, which
is what you have to do if you're there, you're
thinking about you. So it's like wasted resources.
You're better off being empty and just like being
a vessel and just like taking this thing along.
You've done the work already. Take it along for
the ride. Just go for the ride. That's what it
is. And so the problem with that is if you don't
record your set, sometimes you'll say things
that you don't remember, like that were really
funny. And you're like, oh, I had a totally different
point that I went off. And it really worked,
but I don't remember what it was. If you don't
record it, you're fucked. The only way you can
get it back is you have to get back to that exact
spot and hope it's still there for the next show.
Sometimes it will be. Sometimes it will be. It's
waiting for you as a little gift. Sometimes that
angle pops up again. You're like, oh, yeah, but
why are we doing this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're
like, oh, I almost forgot it. That must be a
nightmare or must have been a nightmare before
you could record sets. Yeah, but you've always
been able to record sets. That's one of the things
I learned really early on from this guy, Mike
Donovan, who was one of the big comics in Boston.
He goes, always record your sets because you
never know when you're going to say something.
And it'll be lost forever if you don't have a
recording. There was a... Scotty Scheffler, golfer,
he won. Jamie, you'll have seen this video. I
won golfer? Yeah, can we get that? There's a
New York sports video cut. He does this. It's
such a fucking cool explanation of what somebody
who's got to the peak of their sport, the absolute
pinnacle, like in the moments of winning, and
he just breaks the fourth wall open about kind
of the hollowness. of what this is really yeah
it's really fascinating like what's the point
that thing yes yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and um
it's just it's just such a great explainer because
we always assume here we go yes you might have
just won the us open here too by the way which
is like the biggest event of the year life it's
it's fulfilling from the sense of accomplishment
but it's not fulfilling from a sense of like
the deepest you know Places of your heart, you
know, I think it's kind of funny. I think you
know, I think I said something after the Byron
this year about like It feels like you work your
whole life to celebrate Winning a tournament
for like a few minutes It only lasts a few minutes
that kind of euphoric feeling and I like to win
the Byron Nelson Championship at home I literally
worked my entire life to become good at golf
to have an opportunity to win that tournament
And you win it, you celebrate, get to hug my
family, my sister's there. It's such an amazing
moment. And then it's like, okay, now what are
we going to eat for dinner? Life goes on. Is
it great to be able to win tournaments and to
accomplish the things I have in the game of golf?
Yeah. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes just
to think about because it's literally worked
my entire life to become good at the sport and
to have that kind of sense of accomplishment
I think is... is a pretty cool feeling. You know,
to get to live out your dreams is very special.
But at the end of the day, it's like, I'm not
out here to inspire the next generation of golfers.
I'm not here to inspire somebody else to be the
best player in the world because what's the point?
You know, this is not a fulfilling life. It's
fulfilling from a sense of accomplishment, but
it's not fulfilling from a sense of, like, the
deepest, you know, places of your heart. You
know, there's a lot of people that make it to...
what they thought was going to fulfill them in
life and then you get there and all of a sudden
you get to number one in the world and then they're
like, what's the point? And, you know, I really
do believe that because, you know, what is the
point? You're like, why do I want to win this
tournament so bad? That's something that I wrestle
with on a daily basis. It's like showing up at
the Masters every year. It's like, why do I want
to win this golf tournament so badly? Why do
I want to win the Open Championship so badly?
I don't know. Because if I win, it's going to
be awesome for about two minutes. And then we're
going to get to the next week, and it's going
to be like, hey, you won two majors this year.
How important is it for you to win the FedExCup
playoffs? And it's just like, we're back here
again, you know? So we really do. We work so
hard for such little moments. And, you know,
I'm kind of a sicko. I love putting in the work.
I love being able to practice. I love getting
out to live out my dreams. But at the end of
the day, sometimes I just don't understand the
point. That's honest. That's what that is. I
love that video so much. That's why he's so good.
I love that video so much. I guarantee you that's
why he's so good, because I guarantee you that
guy has to be that honest with himself about
everything. Otherwise, you'd never fix the hitch
in your swing, you know? You have to be honest
about every single thing. You have to be aware
of all of it, every little weird fucking thing
you do. Why am I doing this? Like, what is the
point of this? And then when you're done, like,
yeah, I did it, and then it's going to creep
right back in. Creep right back in. Nike did
a commercial after that. And it's him with his
son sort of kneeling down on the green. And it
says, you've already won. And then I think the
next slide is, but let's get another one. And
it's so fucking cool, dude. There it is. You've
already won. But another major never hurt. That
was a bro. Fucking unbelievable. So I think I
kind of become obsessed with. people sacrificing
what they want, which is happiness, for the thing
that's supposed to get it, which is success.
So they sacrifice the thing that they want, being
happy in the moment. They make themselves miserable
in order to be able to achieve a thing so that
when they finally have sufficient success, they
will allow themselves to be happy. It's like
a very strange trade. Imagine if you had some
simultaneous equation and you just crossed off
success from both sides, you would sort of be
left with happiness. I think that's unrealistic,
right? Because we need... social validation from
people and we want to be recognized we want to
do stuff and we've got to put food on the table
and social creatures and all the rest of it but
i think videos like that are really important
for people to see when they look up to someone
about how much there is there at the end of the
rainbow like uh elon was on lex's show a couple
of years ago and i think lex asked him some question
like how are you doing he replied and he said
people think they want to be me They do not want
to be me. They don't know. They don't understand.
My mind is a storm. I'm like, that's the price
you need to pay to be Elon Musk. I think that
was on this podcast. Was it this one? Yeah, because
I asked him, what is it like to be you? He's
like, you wouldn't want to do it. You wouldn't
want to be me. And you could tell when you're
in his eyes. It's not a normal thought process.
It's like this chaotic. tornado of ideas that's
running around in his head. You know, and sometimes
he spits them out on Twitter and they're not
good. Well, it's a problem when you're on the
platform, right? It's kind of like, I can say
what I want. It's my own house. Well, he can,
though. But he's like that all the time. He's
fun. He's like what I would want to see from
a guy who's a super genius. Like a playful guy
who wants to go to Mars, who's making... Jamie
and I went on a tour of Starship, Starbase. What
is it? SpaceX, Starbase, whatever the fuck it
is. We saw the launch. We went to the SpaceX
launch. And so we got a tour of the rocket factory,
which is fucking insane. It's so much more insane
than I thought it was going to be. I mean, I
can't really, I don't know how much we could
even say, but it is nuts. It's nuts. And the
sheer quantity of rockets that they're making
is mind -blowing. You're like, I thought they
had a couple rockets. Just a couple rockets laying
around. They're just making rockets. I'm pretty
sure they've put more stuff into space, just
that one company, than the entirety of the load
that's been transported into space globally up
until now. They put stuff in space for their
competitors. Yeah, they use their space rockets
to put stuff in space for people that they're
in competition with. Yeah, they take the money.
Show me the color of your money. Yeah, we know
how to do it. We're better at it than you, so
we'll do it. Fucking unbelievable, dude. It's
kind of nuts. I think about the sort of person
you need to be to drive that, though. It's a
different kind of person, right? That's what
he wants to do. That's what he desires to do.
And this gentleman talking about golf, this is
a different... That's a totally different thing
because he's in a competition all the time. And
it's really hard to just enjoy the process when
you're in this competition where especially if
your livelihood depends upon a very specific
result. Like you have to be better at this thing
than everybody else. Not just do the best yourself
but better than the other people that are also
doing their best. So you're in this constant
just never escaping this process. Fighters feel
that, I think, more than anybody because it's
like an actual physical person coming to harm
you all the time. And you're very outcome focused.
Yeah. And so it's all well and good him saying,
I love the process. I'm a bit of a sicko. I like
my training, so on and so forth. But it's very
different saying, I enjoy the process of training
when you've just won. then I enjoy the process
of training when you've just come second or fifth
or 20th. Right. And especially if you're laid
out flat on the canvas. Yeah, especially that.
If that's your humiliation. There's also the
damage that was just done to you where you really
might not be the same again. And there's certain
fighters that you could point to one fight and
they never recovered from it. Yeah. Meldrick
Taylor versus Julio Cesar Chavez is my personal
one that I always point to because Julio Cesar
Chavez knocked him out with like, I think it
was like a couple seconds left in the last round.
Stopped him. And it was a fight that Meldrick
Taylor was winning a decision. But Julio Cesar
Chavez was wearing him down. He was one of the
greatest of all time, just ripping the body,
constantly attacking him. And eventually broke
him down, had him in a corner, boom, dropped
him with a right hand. And he got up, and the
referee called the fight with like a couple of
seconds to go. And it was a hugely controversial
call. But then when Meldrick Taylor returned,
he was never the same again. He started slurring
his words really badly. So it's a physical issue?
He's getting knocked out easily. He's getting
dropped easily. It was gone. It was all gone.
That fight just took it all out of him. You see
that? So there's that, too. It's not just you're
going to lose a golf tournament. You might get
your brains punched in. Physical repercussions?
Huge physical repercussions. For a vicious knockout,
huge. Some guys are never the same again. And
much more likely to get knocked out again once
they get knocked out really badly. Who do you
think of all of the people that you know has
got the right balance of is successful and is
also having fun at the same time? Because it
seems like that's a trade that a lot of people
can make where they are. but they sacrifice their
happiness or they're kind of happy but they're
not pursuing external successes in the same way?
I would say comedians. I would say Chappelle.
Chappelle's probably the most successful guy
that's genuinely happy. I mean, he certainly
has a lot of moments and deep thought, but when
you're hanging around with him, he's a lovely
person. He's a happy, lovely guy. He's so sweet
and so smart and so self -deprecating and interesting
and so great at what he does, When you're hanging
out with him, it's just a hang. He's just having
fun, laughing a lot, got a great crew. He always
keeps his circle tight with cool people and just
has a great time. Have you deconstructed what
that is, like what the contributing elements
are? I think he's doing it. Well, he's a very
unusual person, right? So you're talking about...
Dave Chappelle, when Chappelle's show was the
number one comedy in the country, it was the
greatest sketch show. I think it was the greatest
sketch show of all time. And it was only two
seasons, right? And then they offered him an
enormous amount of money. I think it was $50
million. And they wanted to change a bunch of
stuff. They wanted him to stop saying certain
words. They wanted him to stop doing this, stop
doing that. And he didn't like it. And so he
said, I quit. And he went to Africa. And just
fucking hung out in Africa. And then came back.
When he came back, he stopped doing stand -up.
He would do stand -up. I remember one time he
did stand -up in a park in Seattle. So he showed
up. He had little speakers with him and a microphone
and just did stand -up for free to these people.
Just hung out in Seattle. Just did stand -up.
And he would do stuff like that, show up places
and just do stand -up occasionally. I mean for
10 fucking years. He was like a monk on a walkabout.
How did he stay sharp? Well, I don't think he
ever stopped thinking about things the same way.
And he wasn't as sharp when he came back. There's
one famous video from him in Hartford, Connecticut
where he bombed. I always tell people stay out
of Connecticut. That's not the point. It's like,
you know, I think England's depressed. But the
point was then eventually he started touring
regularly, got it all back, plus then some, and
then is now widely regarded as, if not the greatest
of all time, he's in the consideration. There's
like Pryor, him, Murphy, Kinison, Lenny Bruce.
Carlin for some. There's like a bunch of different
people that you put into like the greatest of
all time. And Dave is certainly in that group.
But he's very happy. He's a happy guy. I mean,
certainly there's cultural issues that trouble
him and life issues that everybody goes through
that trouble him. But genuinely a pretty balanced
guy for someone who's ultra successful. But he's
not stepping outside of his lane either. What
he's really concentrating on and almost exclusively
concentrating on is doing stand -up comedy. And
he will travel. He would get in a jet and fly
to New York unannounced and just show up at clubs
and start doing stand -up. And he's done this
forever. One time I was in Colorado, and I've
known Dave forever. I met Dave when he was, like,
19, and I was, like, I guess I was, like, 23
or 24. We were both very young. And even back
then, I was like, this kid is so talented. It
was remarkable how poised he was on stage as
a 19 -year -old kid. He will just show up places.
I was in Colorado doing stand -up. I was at the
Comedy Works. I get off stage. It was on a Friday
night. I go into the green room, and Dave's there.
He doesn't live in Colorado. He just flew to
Colorado because he knew I was going to be there,
and he wanted to do comedy. I go, do you want
to do a set? He goes, should I? I go, yes. I
go, hold on. So I went back on stage. The show
was over. I go, everybody, yell at the people
that are on the stairs to come back. Dave Chappelle
is here. And half the crowd had already, like,
got up and left. They all come back. Everyone.
Everyone tells everyone they're yelling up the
stairs. Dave Chappelle's here. Come back. I bring
him on stage. Everybody goes crazy. And he does,
like, 45 minutes. Just fucking around. It was
back in the grab him by the pussy days. So he
had this whole, like, he said, grab him by the
pussy. This whole bit, like it just happened
that week. And he had this like giant, and he
just wanted to just go places and do comedy.
So he's not doing it for money, right? He's not
getting paid to do this show. He would show up
in New York. He's not getting paid to do the
stand or whatever these clubs that he just shows
up in. He's just working. He's just working on
the craft of comedy. So his mindset is not. try
to make the most amount of money with stand -up
because if he was doing that he would do an arena
every night right but he could he could do an
arena every night of the week all over the world
and make way more money But that's not what he's
doing. What he's doing is working on the craft
of comedy. He has plenty of money, right? He
has all this money from all these Netflix specials.
They pay him an exorbitant amount of money. And
he makes all this money when he does do the big
shows. So he's got plenty of money. So it's not
money. It's just the craft. It's just the art,
the new set, the new bits, the new thing. He
has a guy who films all of his sets. So he's
got, like, a guy there filming every one of his
sets, and then they break them down. Like, this
rant, that rant. Because he'll, like, ask questions
to people in the audience. He'll do like an hour
and a half on stage just fucking around with
a small crowd somewhere But there's a gem in
there somewhere and then they take that gem and
then they hit it and expands upon it He'll go
over it and break it down. So his process is
all just about the art And I think because of
that the love of the art is what keeps him happy
I think if it's just the love of the money and
you're constantly keeping score, who's the number
one touring act? And you're looking at the fucking
Ticketmaster. Oh, Jesus Christ. Kevin Hart's
got me beat. Son of a bitch. I got to do two
shows a night now. Yeah, let's matinate. Yeah,
people get nutty. They get nutty. And they really
do get themselves. You see it in the podcast
world as well. People really get obsessed with
the number of the rankings and like who's making
more and who's doing this. Just do what you do.
The problem that you're going to come up against
there is you are going to try and trade the outcome
that you're looking for for the fuel that gets
you there. The fuel that gets you there is how
much you love what you're doing. That's what
gets you to the dance. Correct. I've been thinking
so much about the shame of simple pleasures.
quote from a guy called Visakan Varasamy that
says, I have not yet grown wise enough to deeply
enjoy simple things. And I just love the idea
of it, that most of us are kind of terrible accountants
of our own joy, that we only accept deposits
when the transaction's large enough, right? The
day that we get married or the night that we
play the main stage at Glastonbury or sell out
the arena, anything less than that, and it doesn't
even make the ledger. So we treat small pleasures.
like counterfeit currency. And we think like,
we have a kind of, not disgust, but rejection
of, oh, that small thing made your week. That
tiny incident made your day. You must not have
a lot going on. Like how weak and how small must
your life be that seeing a cute golden retriever
this afternoon was like a fucking sick part of
your day. And I think about Scotty Scheffler
as a good example, him making it all the way
to the top. And if all that you were doing was
waiting for that final moment, for this main
stage at Glastonbury, day that I get married,
sell the business for $500 million, whatever,
you are forgetting almost all of the journey
and then just cashing in at the destination.
And there's the guy that's just won everything
in all of fucking golf, like the goat of right
now, is saying, it's fleeting. Yeah. It's really,
really short. It's not going to last for very
long. And that shame that people have, I certainly
know that I do as well, that it almost feels
like a reflection on the smallness of my life
if I take pleasure in little things. When you
take pleasure in little things, you don't just
get more of them. You get them right now. You
don't need to wait. You don't need to be a fucking
world champion at winning the marshmallow test,
just delaying gratification so long that you
never actually end up getting any gratification.
Yeah. The problem with that thought process is
to achieve true greatness, you must be mad. Madness
and greatness are inextricably connected. You
can't separate them. To get true greatness, there
has to be some demons. There has to be a mad
struggle in your mind. And you have to want it
so badly. You have to want that result so badly
that you are willing to put in more time, more
effort, more focus, more hours. And you don't
get to smell the roses, man. You don't get to
pet the puppies. You do, but you don't. You're
petting the puppy thinking about the thing that
you do, thinking about getting better because
you need those resources. It's like a demon that
sort of climbs inside of you and wears you. Yeah.
You know who Ronnie O'Sullivan is? Yeah, the
snooker player. Yeah, the greatest of all time.
There's certain people in certain sports. I'm
going to send you something, Jamie, so you see
what a wizard this guy is. I'm actually in the
middle of his book. My friend Billy Thorpe, who's
a top flight. pool player, recommended this book.
Oh, no, I'm sorry. Tyler Styler, who's another
top flight pool player, like world -class pool
player, recommended this book. And I started
the book and I can't stop it. It's so good. How
old is it? I think it's fairly recent because
it's post -COVID. I thought it was going – he
recommended it because of the way Ronnie describes
picking the perfect cue, like the relationship
that he has with the cue. But it is so eloquent
and so – but the story – the whole story, the
whole book rather, the story of his life is really
more of – it's an exercise in him trying to explain.
Like what it's like to be this good and this
mad like he's a madman like watch this watch
this watch what he does here This is crazy from
O'Sullivan Now if you don't know how difficult
it is to make these balls He doesn't give a shit
that that guy's in front of them that the referee's
in front of them watch how quickly he does this
I mean he's making the audience laugh. He's moving
around that guy. He can't miss This is the zone
personified. He gets to a point in this where
he's feeling so good, he decides to start shooting
things one -handed. Watch this. Watch this. One
-handed. Now he's doing it one -handed. One -handed.
These are tiny little pockets. He's shooting
one -handed with English and getting position.
Everyone's going crazy. I mean, that's how fucking
good Ronnie O'Sullivan was. But the book is really
about managing madness. It's about him being
sober and now he's – he's kind of taken a lot
of that insane competitive drive. Now he runs
like he's a runner, like he runs long distances.
And he talks about that and meets up with his
running club and they all get together and go
on runs together. But it's like – it's just managing
whatever the fuck that – and he's also describing
even in his prime. He was saying – he was thinking
he's worthless. He's thinking he's not good enough.
He's going to fall apart. He's going to choke.
He's going to this. He's like all these – demons
are popping up and meanwhile he's just everybody's
like terrified of him he shows up it's like oh
gee the genius is here because he's a genius
like he's a snooker playing genius there's there's
something about what he does it's just different
than everybody else but the book is like it's
not just about like picking the perfect cue it's
really about managing madness and everyone who's
great is fucking crazy there's but you can i
think Like Chappelle does. You can take that
greatness and just throw it into the thing you
do and love it while you're doing it. It doesn't
have to be a demon. It doesn't have to be an
adversary. It could be just this romantic affair
of you being so fortunate to be able to pursue
this thing, but maintaining that same level of
enthusiasm. I don't know if the same... level
of enthusiasm though can be maintained in something
that has like a winner and a loser like a game
where there's so much riding on each shot yes
versus art which is like dave goes to he's already
won they're gonna they're the show sold out he
knows how to do comedy he gets out there they
all cheer he's got great material he can't wait
to make them laugh he already won Well, that's
the problem with turning the art into the competition.
Yeah. She said that, right? The rankings. Well,
that means that even if I did it and enjoyed
it, but I'm number three or whatever. Yeah. That's
horrendous. That's not good. Yeah. There's podcasts
that. Game the system. So this podcast, they
release multiple episodes a day, and they're
short podcasts, so they have more downloads than
everybody else. And so relatively speaking, you
know, so it's like a scam. And so, like, they'll
be very highly ranked, but no one's ever watched
it or heard of it. I think. But they get quoted
in magazines as being the number two podcast
in the world. Oh, dear. But that's really what
it is. It's like you've figured out a way, which
there's nothing wrong with that. If you want
to do that, you can game the system. But it doesn't
matter. What are you doing? Are you doing something
that you're putting out? I don't talk to anybody
that I'm not interested in talking to. That's
it. It's the only reason why I do this. I talk
to people that I think will be fun, and I look
forward to it, and I still do. That's why I do
it. That's why it continues to work, because
I do it the same way I've always done it. I just
talk to people that I like to talk to. No, like,
oh, if I got that guy on, he's super famous.
Like, that'll get a big rating. Game of the system.
Yeah, there's a lot of famous people that I've
said no to because I'm just not interested in
them. I'm like, yeah, maybe that'll get a lot
of people, but I don't want to do that. What
I've found, the single best determinant for when
I know that modern wisdom is going well. is if
I wake up on the morning of the episode and I
can't wait for it to be 2 p .m. I'm like, fucking
yes, I get to speak to such and such today. And
then I finish up and I go, I learned something.
That was fucking cool. Like that was a good one,
two, three, four hours. That was a good day.
And then there's other days when I've like. I
don't know. I wake up and I just think, I should
have thought a little bit more about it. I'm
looking forward to this, but I'm not super fired
up. And the more that you push away from that
instinct with whatever you're doing, because
your instinct is ultimately your only competitive
advantage that you have because it's the most
non -fungible thing that you've got. So Douglas
Murray told me this story. It's a really fascinating
one about this guy. When Douglas was first on
the scene. This guy that was the head of the
paper that he was at accumulated all of the fans
and all of the foes that you would in an industry
like that over the space of a couple of decades.
And he decides that he's going to release a West
End show about the life of Prince Charles in
rhyming couplets. Douglas is like, what? Okay,
well, you know, do you trust him? This guy, this
illustrious history, so and so, he must know
what he's doing. And by the opening night interval,
there is nobody left in the entire auditorium,
including the cast. Everybody's left. And this
guy is dejected and all of the people, all of
the enemies that he's accumulated throughout
his career, they start sharpening the knives
and they come out and he's just despondent. He's
like so, so sad. Douglas sees him a couple of
weeks later and he goes, what were you thinking?
Fucking West End show about the life of Prince
Charles in rhyming couplets. What were you thinking?
He said, Douglas, I followed my instincts. And
the thing is, instincts, they may sometimes lead
you wrong, but they're the only thing that's
ever led you right. And I thought, that's such
a cool insight about, yes, you're going to make
some errors if you follow that, and maybe you
need a team around you or a friend to go, ah,
not with that one. But. Right. You just going,
I think this guy's interesting. I think this
girl's interesting. I think this topic's important,
and I'm going to talk about it. Maybe he just
did a bad job. Like, look at Hamilton. They did
a rap about Alexander Hamilton. It's fucking
huge. Okay, yeah, so the delivery of the thing.
You might have the great idea, but the delivery
is wrong. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting one.
Totally. If you think about Hamilton, like Hamilton
is a great example. That play is gigantic. It's
on Netflix now. And it keeps on crushing. Yeah,
it's killing it. Yeah. And it's so preposterous
if you think about it. They're talking in modern
language about a guy who lived hundreds of years
ago. That doesn't even make any sense. They have
black people playing white people. This is going
to be weird. It's great. It's fucking great.
Where do you think that drive comes from in people?
You know, that demon thing. Is there a common
thread that you've seen with the people that
have got it? Yeah. Most of them had unhappy childhoods.
Yeah. It's very rare that someone has like the
best in the world demon and their childhood was
awesome. It's very rare. Generally speaking,
there's something there. Something, some loss,
some trauma, something not good. Some lack of
what you needed when you were young. You didn't
get it. And then you're like. I'm going to fucking
show everybody. Like Mike Tyson, maybe the best
example of that ever. Like for a period of time,
the scariest heavyweight that ever walked the
face of the planet and redefined the heavyweight
division in modern boxing. And, you know, he
was 13 years old when Customato had adopted him,
and his life was hell before that. It was hell.
It was no love. It was crime and being around
the worst people. And then all of a sudden he's
in the Catskills with this guy who's a psychologist
and one of the greatest boxing coaches of all
time and also a hypnotist. and is hypnotizing
him on a regular basis when he's 13 years old
and teaches him to be the best. And so then he's
got this, I will show you that I'm worth something.
I will show you that I'm special. There's one
thing that I'm good at, and that is separating
men from their consciousness, finding a way to
get in touch with them, get close enough, and
launching, launching bombs and watching them
drop. And he was the best at it. And it was,
I think, the drive to be the best. It has to
come from some, there's got to be something wrong
where you have that fire inside of you. I love
thinking about this. I think it's been the question
that I've probably been the most obsessed by
since doing the show, the price that people pay
to be somebody that you admire. And I think it's
just endlessly interesting. So one thing that
comes to mind there is Do you know what the fundamental
attribution error is? It's like we attribute
to other people motive for their action. It's
like their character. But for us, it's situation.
So for instance, I cut you off in traffic because
I'm late for work. You cut me off in traffic
because you're a dick. Right. So we have this
asymmetry in how we judge other people's behaviors
as opposed to our own. I think that there's an
equivalent here when we think about... Our parents.
So you could call it the fundamental parental
attribution error, maybe, which would be we attribute
to our parents our shortcomings, but not necessarily
our strengths. Right. So we're very happy. Like
modern pop psychology, it's like a rite of passage
to lay at the feet of our parents. I've got anxious
attachment because nobody ever came to look after
me. You go, yeah, maybe. But also. Isn't this
the reason that your hypervigilance means that
no one ever gets to take advantage of you? It's
like, I am unable to relax and chill out because
love was always predicated on me performing.
It's like, yes, but also it's driven you to be
an incredibly successful person. And I think
we should just be a little bit cautious. when
laying at the feet of our parents only our shortcomings
they can either have both you can either say
that my strengths and my shortcomings come from
my parents or my strengths and my shortcomings
come from my own agency but you can't say i authored
the things that i like about myself but the things
that i don't like about myself came from some
like past situation yes yeah victim mentality
yeah yes yeah yeah yeah and also bad things that
happened to you when your kid being bullied Being
bullied is terrible at the time, but it leads
many a person to say, I'll fucking show you.
And then you get this incredible result. But
then the thing is, are you happy? That's the
real dance. The dance is between success and
happiness. And a lot of people have achieved
success but have not achieved happiness, and
they'll die a loser. Well, that's you sacrificing
the thing you want for the thing that's supposed
to get it. And that's why, like, okay, what's
your definition of success? Interesting question.
Would you just want to be the best in the world?
Like, that's not bad. That's not a bad. It's
this thing we talked about before, too, that
just because something's difficult doesn't mean
it's good. And there's a lot of things that you
do that are very difficult to do. And then you
see other people have achieved them. You say
that must be really worthwhile. And then you
do it and you realize like, oh, this isn't worth
anything. This is just hard to do. This sucks.
That's often the case with success. Because if
you become incredibly successful and then you
have all these haters and, you know, like the
guy who wrote the shitty play, like they come
for you and they want to chop you down. and that's
part of the game that you're playing. And if
you don't like that, if you don't like that,
but then you've gotten trapped in it, and you're
constantly being attacked, and you listen to
it, and you pay attention to it. You see it with
successful people. You see it really with famous
people, especially young people. They have no
history with this, and then all of a sudden it's
just thrown at them, and then they are both the
thing they wanted and something they would never
want, which is to be constantly under attack.
I've thought about... how brutal it must be to
have the talent but not the constitution to be
able to handle success and fame so i don't know
whether you've been tracking uh lewis capaldi
the scottish singer so there's a great documentary
on netflix you've got to watch it uh how i'm
feeling now it's a bit old now it's like maybe
four or five years old lewis capaldi breaks onto
the scene unbelievable voice he's been playing
working men's pubs around scotland and is just
a fucking phenom right um billions of streams,
billions and billions of plays, arena tour, global
tour, all the rest of it, COVID happens. He's
back in his mum and dad's house near Glasgow
in Scotland, and he's in the hut out the back
trying to do the difficult second album. And
there's the pressure of the world on him. Now,
he's got the talent, but the pressure from...
from agencies, from record label, from fans,
from himself, from his parents, from his peers,
from everybody, starts to get on him. It weighs
on him so heavily that he develops a tick. Oh,
Jesus. Like Tourette's. It turns out he's always
had Tourette's, but the pressure has caused him
to, like, he can't perform. And toward the end
of the documentary, he goes back out on stage
at the O2 in London. Does the thing walks out
on stage and he's still doing this and you've
tracked this whole journey. This is toward the
end And he can't get his words out This is his
calling in life. This is what he was built to
do This is what he was made for and his talent
has been taken away from him By the pressure
of trying to do the thing not by his inability
to do the thing And this is such a fucking unique
kind of hell I think about fighters that have
performance anxiety that just can't get themselves
into the octagon with the lights on them. Put
them in the training camp. They're sparring.
There's not that same amount of pressure. Not
yet. And they're unbelievable. And Lewis Capaldi
did Glastonbury, I think, two years ago. And
the same thing happened. Comes out on stage and
basically... i can't sing he can't you're hearing
these little croaks and squeaks come out of him
and then this year he comes back out he's done
a ton of mindfulness got his health in order
mental health work therapy comes out and just
fucking destroys it oh wow dude it's like it
makes the hairs on my arm stand up it's so fucking
cool wow that's awesome that's a great story
that's what i like to see I like to see someone
who fucks their whole life up and gets it back
together again. I love that. I really do. Because
I think that's what people really root for. They
really root for you to get it back together again.
What they don't root for is once you're on top,
like staying on top. They like you to fall. Yeah,
that's a little too much. Well, I mean, I think
especially with... With what most people feel,
they want to see a little bit of themselves in
that story. And they want to see a little bit
of struggle. Right. And they also know that they've
fucked up their life. Because everybody's fucked
up their life at some point in time. Redemption.
Yes. If this person can be there and lose it
and then come back. Maybe I can get my shit together.
That's the problem. As a 42 -year -old alcoholic.
Yeah. Maybe you're not going to be Lewis Capaldi.
Maybe you are. Maybe you're Oliver Anthony. You
know, Churchill didn't get into power until he
was 65. Wow. all of my life up until now would
be less than two -thirds of the warm -up set
for Churchill starting his thing. Right. So I
just, you never know sort of when this stuff's
going to come along. I do love, though, the idea
of watching somebody climb to the top, lose it.
And then turn it back around again. I think it's
just such a fucking wonderful idea. We all love
that. But I think it's because we try to see
some of ourself in someone, which is why we don't
like things that are created by a corporation
where they put together a band like the Monkees
or something like that and fake it. Nepotism,
Silver Spoon Baby. We hate all of that. We hate
all of that. We hate all the people handed their
life on a silver platter. If it feels like somebody
didn't earn it. Yeah. Yeah. I worry. I worry
about where motivation comes from for people
in a way. If you are able to game the system,
which people are now, they can like speed run
relatability and authenticity. But you don't
know if this is some K -pop thing, some industry
plant style scenario that's just been placed
together to try and get this. give you a sense
of resonance with this person that doesn't deserve
it they didn't actually struggle in that sort
of a way but they can construct the narrative
that they did and I think In a world that's become
increasingly prefabricated, like people are looking,
they're scrutinizing very aggressively. Is this
person who they say they are? This is the hypocrisy
that points out that they're not. Right, right.
And that's where you get performative vulnerability.
Oh, woe is me. They pretend to, not pretend to
have Tourette's, although I'm sure some people
do. They pretend they're struggling. Correct.
Yeah. Because I need the sympathy vote. Yeah.
Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Well, the real
problem was when someone pretends and you catch
them pretending like that, then you're never
going to trust them again. You could fail. You
can fail and fuck up. You could think you got
it right and you got it wrong and you just, oh,
fuck. But if you pretend. If you lie, if you
show deception, if you pretend you're something
that you're not and they find out, like Ellen,
you know, she's a nice lady. She's all dancing.
Meanwhile, she's fucking screaming at people
and mean. You know, that's like, oh, you were
lying. That is fucking catnip to people. Ooh,
they love it. Yeah. Well, there's nothing that
the Internet wants more than to find somebody
that's a hypocrite. Sure. Because the Internet
is basically one big spot the difference competition.
You said this thing here. You behave this way
here. Right. I can compare the two. You have
fallen short. And the fucking jury comes down
and smashes you in the head. It's also because
we crave authenticity. We wish we had it. We
crave it in other people. We want like we're
all trying to we're watching all these different
people like this guy play golf and that guy play
music and watching all these people do all these
different things. And we're we're getting something
out of it all. There's a reason why you like
that thing on Netflix. It's like it fuels the
human condition. It gives you happiness. It's
like it's some there's some in a genuine moment
like that. It's like a very special element that
it adds to your life. And we crave that. And
it's hard to know what's real and what's not
real. That's why people get mad at me when I
say I like AI music. I know it's not real. I
still like it. But I don't like it the same way
I like listening to Johnny Cash sing Hurt. You
know what I mean? There's an authenticity to
that. There's a real thing to that. It's very
tangible. It's different. There's an upper bound
on it. I certainly think... I'm friends with
a lot of musicians and one of the issues I think
that they have with the AI revolution, apart
from the fact that they're coming for our jobs,
which is obvious, is that learning a musical
instrument is really fucking hard and it takes
a very long time. I think that the revolution
for podcasting has made it fucking fantastic
for people to feel less lonely and have exposure
to conversations and information they never would
have done. But... anybody that sticks a microphone
in front of them can record a podcast. It may
be a totally shit podcast, but if you give me
a guitar, I can't make notes come out of it.
So the bar that you need to get over to just
be acceptably proficient, enough to be able to
have the conversation. Everybody does what is
equivalent of a podcast. Everybody that has never
recorded a podcast has had a great conversation
over dinner and gone, dude, if we recorded that,
that would have got millions of plays on YouTube.
So everyone is a little bit closer to this. And
I think that one of the issues that the music
industry or musicians within the industry have
is that AI feels like it's allowing people to
leapfrog the first very long, very boring, very
grindy stage of, well, this is where your fucking
fingers need to go on the saxophone. Or this
is how you need to... pick the strings in order
to make the sound come out of the guitar yeah
and if you leapfrog it that feels like a little
bit like a technology -enabled nepotism in a
way you've got yourself toward the end. You shouldn't
be able to make this. This is like a guarded
and highly invested. I mean, you guys see this
in comedy. In comedy, you're like, dude, until
you're eight, like the first seven years, like
they're just you earning your keep and then you're
eight, whatever it is, like it's a thousand shows.
And once you've done a thousand spots, then you
can say that you've started doing comedy or whatever
it is. For podcasting, I think it's like 150
episodes. Before anyone that asks me like, I'm
beginning my podcast and what's your advice?
And I'm like. Once episode 150 starts, you have
begun doing a podcast. Up until then, it's basically
a warm -up set. And I think with music, because
it's such a high investment that people need
to have at the very, very beginning, this sense
that there is a shortcut that allows people who
haven't earned their way to get there, it would
be like if you were using AI to write comedy
sets. Yeah, and I think you're correct, but I
also think that's probably what Lions felt when
people invented guns. Like, this is bullshit.
I've been chasing you motherfuckers down and
eating you for thousands of years. Now all of
a sudden you just squeeze your little finger
and I die instantaneously? That's bullshit. It's
coming. It's coming. It's coming in all forms
of entertainment. They've figured out what you
like. They've got a giant catalog of billions
of hours of human beings paying attention to
things. And it's coming. It's coming. It's going
to overwhelm you. And it's going to be indiscernible
from reality eventually. It's going to be something
that you physically experience as well as visual
and audio. You're going to have the whole experience.
We'd better enjoy ourselves while we can. Yeah,
have fun while you can. Chris, I appreciate you
very much. It's always awesome talking to you.
Your podcast is excellent. Tell everybody where
they can get it. Where they can find you. Modern
Wisdom on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, Chris Williamson
on YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. I appreciate
the fuck out of you, man. I appreciate the fuck
out of you too, brother. It's always good talking
to you. It's always fun. Goodbye, everybody.
Peace.