Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1330. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Democratic Socialism, U.S. Economic Reform, and Healthcare Policy Analysis. And we're live. Hello, Bernie. How are you, Joe?
Wonderful. Pleasure to meet you. Nice to meet
you. It's exciting to have you here, man. And
it's obviously an exciting time for you. You
know, presidential campaign is up in full swing.
Do you get frustrated by the time constraints
of the debates? Absolutely. You shouldn't even
call them a debate. What they are is a, you know,
reality TV show. in which you have to come up
with a soundbite and all that stuff. It is the
meaning. It's the meaning to the candidates,
and it's the meaning to the American people.
You can't explain the complexity of health care
in America in 45 seconds. Nobody can. But why
is it still done that way? Let's pull this thing.
You know, I think the DNC is in a difficult position.
They have 20 -plus candidates, and they want
to give everybody a fair shot, which is the right
thing to do. And then if you're going to have
10 candidates up on the stage, what do you do?
But there are other ways that we've got to do
it because the issues facing this country are
so enormous and in some cases so complicated.
Nobody in the world can honestly explain them
in 45 seconds. And then what encourages people
to do is to come up with soundbites or do absurd
things. If I yelled and screamed on the show,
I took my clothes off, we get a lot of publicity,
right? But if you give a thoughtful answer to
a complicated question, it's not so sexy for
the media. Well, you don't even have a chance
to give a thoughtful answer. Like Tulsi Gabbard
went after Kamala Harris and then Kamala Harris
had about 12 seconds to reply to it. It was so...
It's ridiculous to have something that's such
an important issue. Did you or did you not put
all those people in jail for marijuana? Did you
laugh about it? Did this happen? Did that happen?
All these different things. Was evidence withheld?
These are long conversations. But it takes us
to another issue, and that as a nation, we do
a pretty bad job in analyzing and discussing
the serious issues facing our country. And I
hold the media to some degree responsible for
that. You know, other countries, what they do
is they say, Joe, you want to run for president?
I'll tell you what, with your party in the general
election, we're going to give you a certain amount
of time, hours, on television. And you use those
hours any way you want. You want a 15 -minute
discourse. You remember Ross Perot? And people
used to laugh at Ross Perot because he used to
get up there with a chart and all this stuff.
And the media made fun of him. But in fact, he
tried in his own way to explain his point of
view. to the American people. And we need serious
discussion on serious issues. Well, because he
was so rich, he had the ability to buy airtime
on network television, which is pretty unprecedented.
He just bought a chunk of airtime and then pled
his case. But you know what goes on in other
countries? You don't have to buy that time. What
the obligation is, if you are a network, you're
going to make that time free and available. Do
you think that that's something that could be
viable in America? Could you convince CBS and
NBC and ABC to go along with something like that?
No, you couldn't convince them. You'd have to
pass legislation to make that happen. But everyone's
online today. I mean, the entire country is essentially
getting email and Facebook and all that jazz.
Why bother doing it in this particular medium
that has an inherent time constraint? Well, you're
right. I mean, the Internet has revolutionized.
And in many ways, good ways, we use our social
media, our email list, which is very large. Every
day we're sending out stuff and other candidates
are doing it the same way. But television still
has a very important role to be playing. I'm
sure it does. But I mean, the ability to discuss
things in long form, like you can do online,
like you can do right here, right now. You can't
get that on television. Well, you could. I mean,
if you had. They would have to interrupt you
every 15 minutes or so. No, no, no, no. What
I'm saying about is in what goes on in other
countries. If I'm not mistaken, don't hold me
to this. I think in the UK, you're a member of
the Labour Party. You're a candidate. Here's
30 minutes of time and you do with it as you
want. You want to speak 30 minutes on health
care, whatever it may be, you can do that. Really?
Yeah. And they don't interrupt with commercials?
No, no, no, no. That's the law that they have
given. This is the candidate's opportunity to
speak at length to the people of the country.
What are the misconceptions of you? Because here's
the – if you go to the knee -jerk conservative
reaction, you talk to people who are not interested
in anyone that wants to be a democratic socialist.
They hear the name Bernie Sanders. The negative
implications are that you are somehow or another
going to take their money, right? Is that annoying
to you? Yes, it is. Of course it is. And also
that I'm Mr. Maduro. I'm a dictator. I love dictatorships
and all that stuff. And the truth is, Joe, that
if you look at the issues that I campaign on
and what I believe on, they are really not terribly
radical. They exist in many countries all over
the world. For example, just we can start on
health care if you'd like. Is the idea that health
care is a human right, not a privilege, a radical
idea? I don't think it is. It's not. And the
truth is we are the only major country on earth.
Many people don't know this. We're the only major
country on earth not to guarantee health care
to all people as a human right, and yet we end
up spending almost twice as much per capita on
health care. The function, and you can argue
with me if you want, but the function of the
current health care system is not to provide
quality care at all. It is to make tens of billions
of dollars in profit for the drug companies and
the insurance companies. That's the function.
If you go to Canada, and I live 50 miles away
from the Canadian border, you have major heart
surgery. You're in the hospital for a month.
Do you know what the bill is when you get out?
Zero. You got it. You got any doctor you want.
You don't have to take out your wallet. And yet
they guarantee health care to all of their people
and they spend one half of what we spend. That's
kind of what I want to do. And I don't think
that that's terribly radical. We have a program
now, which everybody knows. It's called Medicare.
It was started by Lyndon Johnson back in 1965.
It is a popular program. All that I want to do
over a four -year period is to expand it. Today,
eligibility at age 65, I want to take it down
to 55, 45, 35, everybody over a four -year period.
That's about it. And I want to expand benefits
to include dental care, hearing aids, and eyeglasses
as well. That's about it. Not too radical. That
doesn't sound radical at all. Now, when you say
that Canada spends less, obviously they have
less people. You mean less per capita? Yes, half
per capita. Exactly, per capita. And the quality
of care is as good. Or better. Do they have problems?
Yeah, they have problems. Everybody has problems.
But overall, the health care experts will tell
you the quality of care there is as good or better
than it is in our country. So what's the hurdle?
Okay, I'll tell you exactly what the hurdle is.
The hurdle is exactly the same thing as in every
other aspect of our lives. It's the power of
money. All right, listen to this. Over the last
20 years, the drug companies alone have spent
four. and a half billion dollars in 20 years
on lobbying and campaign contributions that's
what we're up against the knowledge and i mark
my words within a short period of time you will
see tv ads california all over this country demonizing
bernie sanders he wants to do this terrible thing
to you he wants to do that they have unbelievable
amounts of money and politicians are frightened
of that power give you one example Back in 2016,
I got involved here in a little way with an effort
on the part of the nurses to control the cost
of prescription drugs in California. You may
recall that effort. I do. It was a ballot item
in one state here in California. Do you know
how much the drug companies alone spent to defeat
that effort? They spent $131 million on one ballot
item in one state. Last year, the top 10 drug
companies made $69 billion. A week ago, I went
to Canada with a number of Americans who are
dealing with diabetes. We bought insulin in Windsor,
Ontario for one -tenth the price, 10 % of the
price. Same exact product being charged in America.
So you've got drug companies that are engaged
in collusion and in price fixing who are incredibly
greedy. And the result is many elderly people,
many working people simply cannot afford the
medicine they need. It's unbelievable. And the
reason for all of that stuff is we are the only
country in the world that does not negotiate
with the drug companies. They can charge you
any price they want. And that has to do with
the fact that we don't have a national health
care program. Medicare is not negotiating, et
cetera. Is this something that can really be
implemented inside of four years? It seems like
it's an enormous endeavor. Well, I want you to
think back. Think back, Joe, in 1965. you had
Lyndon Johnson as president. And by the way,
this idea of national healthcare, this has been
talked about literally since Teddy Roosevelt.
This is not a new concept. Healthcare is a human
right. That's what Teddy Roosevelt was talking
about. That's what FDR was talking about. Harry
Truman was talking about it. Kennedy was talking
about it. Kennedy got killed. Lyndon Johnson
picked up the mantle. And their idea was, according
to people in their administration, we'll start
with the elderly who are most impacted by...
by healthcare costs and sickness, will start.
And they did. In 1965, without the technology
we have today, they implemented Medicare. 19
million people, elderly people, signed up in
the first year. So if you could start a brand
new program and have 19 million people sign up
with a technology that is way, way behind where
we are today, why can't we, over a four -year
period, simply expand that program? I don't think
it's such a difficult operation. So when you
talk about the drug companies and the lobbyists
and the enormous amount of money that they spend,
does this exist anywhere else other than the
United States, lobbyists on that level? No, no,
of course not. And the reason, you know, in Canada
what you have is you have a national health care
program and so forth. And they sit down and,
A, they negotiate with the drug companies. They
have their own approach. But every other major
country on earth says to the drug companies,
of course you can't charge us any price you want.
This is a reasonable price. Tell me what your
profits are, what your expenditures are. This
is a price. For us, you can walk in, you know,
if you have an illness, you can walk into the
pharmacy tomorrow and the price has been doubled.
And you say to the pharmacist, what happened?
He said, they just raised their prices. They
could do it any day they want, any price they
want. Now, lobbyists are, in general, when people
talk about lobbyists, it's an unattractive term.
We think of it in terms of a negative. We don't
think of, oh, thank God there's lobbyists. We
think, wow, there's someone with enormous amounts
of money using that money to gain influence on
politicians, and it shapes regular people. It
shapes our lives mostly in a negative way. This
is the way most people look at it. I'm not saying
it's correct. Why do we have that system in place?
Why do we have lobbyists? Why is it legal for
someone to spend exorbitant amounts of money
to affect? our civilization, to affect the way
our culture works. Now you're taking us into
a whole new area. Yeah. All right. Let's look.
Let me detour and I'll come back. Please do.
Today in America, you've got three people owning
more wealth than the bottom half of the American
society. You don't see that on television too
much, do you? No, you don't. Three people. You've
got the top 1 % owning more wealth than the bottom
92%. Listen to this. This is a statistic we recently
saw. It came from the Federal Reserve. Over the
last 30 years, the top 1 % has seen a $21 trillion
increase in their wealth. The bottom half of
America has seen a $900 billion decline in their
wealth. So what you have in America today is
a relatively small number of incredibly wealthy
people. And I deal with these guys every day.
People say, oh, we're talking about rich. You
don't know what rich is, what multi -billion
dollar operations are. Incredible. power over
our society. And if you are the pharmaceutical
industry, and last year, 10 companies made $69
billion in profit, you're sitting around right
now saying, all right, that's great. How do we
do better next year? What strategy do we have?
We're going to put a lot of ads on. We're going
to work with other companies. During the CNN
debate that I participated in recently, in the
debate, right in the middle of the debate, the
drug companies and the insurance companies had
an ad telling how bad so -called, how bad Medicare
for all would be. So they're smart guys, and
they use their power over politicians. They use
their power over the media. They spend billions
of dollars on advertising, on media, to make
sure that they make as much as they can in profit.
But it's not any different with Wall Street.
It's not any different with the fossil fuel industry
or the prison industrial complex. These guys
have wealth, they have power, and they could
care less about the needs of working people in
this country. And that's the dynamic of American
politics right now. And in our campaign, look,
we're taking them all on. And I know it makes
a lot of people uncomfortable. But we are taking
on all of these entities and all of their wealth
and all of their power. And that's what a political
revolution is about. So the real problem seems
to be that they have this strategy of unlimited
growth, not that they're not providing medication
that people need to save their lives. I mean,
it's obviously. It's important to have pharmaceutical
companies. Of course, of course. Right. So there's
good that they provide, but the business aspect
of it is where the problem lies, right? Right.
Look, they have great researchers, but if you
check how they even spend their money, you know,
they will tell you this. All of their money on
research and development. We're tackling cancer.
We're tackling diabetes, Alzheimer's. The truth
is, of course, they are. But the bulk of their
money. is going off into what we call me -too
drugs. They make modest changes in a drug, which
really doesn't improve people's well -being in
order to make profits. So the answer is yes,
we need obviously vigorous research and development.
And by the way, your tax dollars, all of our
tax dollars often goes to that research, and
we don't get the benefit of it in terms of lower
prices. So it's just – it's a business model
issue. Exactly. It's a greed issue. You've got
it. And how would one stop that? When you're
dealing with this – the kind of influence that
you're talking about with $69 billion in a year,
I mean the resources they have, how would you
stop that? Well, that is kind of what we call
the $64 question. And I'll tell you what I think.
This is what I believe. on American history.
And you think about the real changes that have
taken place in society. You think about the labor
movement and working class people standing up
and saying to their employers, we're not going
to be treated like animals anymore. You can't
hire and fire us. You can't work us, you know,
15 hours a day. We deserve dignity. And you think
about the growth of the labor movement, millions
of people beginning to stand together and fight.
You think about the civil rights movement, you
know. And it wasn't just Dr. Martin Luther King
Jr. It was, again, millions of African Americans
and their white allies saying, we're going to
end segregation and racism in this country. Think
about the women's movement. A hundred years ago,
women in America didn't even have the right to
vote. Think about the gay rights movement. Think
about the environmental. The only way that change
takes place is when ordinary people come together
and stand up and fight and say that the status
quo is not working. And that's what I believe,
and that's what we're trying to do. So the message
of our campaign is it's us, not me, because I
can't do it alone. Let me be very honest with
you. If I were elected president tomorrow, I
can't do the things that I would like to do,
that I'm campaigning on, unless millions of people
were working with me to tell the corporate elite
that they cannot get it all. So how would that
be implemented? Let's say you become president.
You're going to become president? What do you
think? I think we got a shot at it. Got a shot.
All right. President Bernie, what do you do?
You get in there, what do you do? Okay, first
of all, you make it clear to the American people
what your agenda is. And I appreciate the opportunity
to talk about an agenda in more than 12 seconds.
What does that mean? We're going to fight for
Medicare for all. We're going to raise the minimum
wage to a living wage. We are going to deal with
education in a profound way because I worry about
what's going on in education today. Everybody
knows that the ages of zero through four are
the most important years for human intellectual
and emotional development, right? Every psychologist
will tell you that. And yet we have a totally
dysfunctional early childhood system. We pay
our childcare workers. starvation wages, yet
working class families cannot find affordable
quality childcare. You got our public school
systems all around this country, and many of
them really being challenged right now. Teachers
are underpaid. Teachers are working two or three
jobs. You got kids who can't afford to go to
college. And here's something that is just unbelievable.
Kids who have gone to college leaving school
with $50 ,000, $100 ,000 in debt. Unbelievable.
These are issues that we have to deal with, and
I will deal with them. And we are going to substantially
improve the quality of education in America.
We're going to cancel student debt by imposing
a tax on Wall Street speculation. So you've got
to deal with education. You've got to deal with
climate change. The truth is that Donald Trump
is dead wrong. Climate change is not a hoax.
It is a very, very dangerous reality for our
country and the rest of the world. Scientists
tell us we have less than 12 years. to transform
our energy system away from fossil fuel, or there
will be irreparable damage. So those are, and
health care, of course, for all. So those are
some of the major issues, criminal justice, immigration
reform. You lay it on the table. You say, these
are the issues that we are going to focus on.
And you rally the American people around those
issues. And you tell people like Mitch McConnell,
who represents a very poor state in Kentucky,
that Mitch... If you are going to oppose raising
that minimum wage to at least 15 bucks an hour,
I will be in Kentucky as president of the United
States. And we're going to have a rally because
you're going to have to stop representing. And
I hope, by the way, that Mitch McConnell is not
the leader. I hope the Democrats can gain control
over the Senate. But if he is, we'll put enormous
pressure on him to do what the people want. Every
idea, Joe, here's the bottom line on this thing.
Every idea that I've just talked to you about
is supported by a majority of the American people.
These are not. Radical ideas. Let's take these
one step at a time because you mentioned a lot
of important things there. Let's go with the
minimum wage thing. Now, the argument that I've
heard about the minimum wage being raised to
$15 an hour is that there are entry -level positions
for high school kids, for people that are just
– getting their feet wet in the marketplace,
they're learning how to work, they're making
some money after school, that if you charge or
if businesses have to pay $15 an hour to people
like that, to entry -level people, that they
won't be able to stay open? Well, first of all,
they will be competing against, you know, if
you're a business and I'm a business and both
of us have to raise our wages at the same level,
we both have the same burden, so it's spread
across. That is what my conservative colleagues
will tell you. The truth is, I don't have the
numbers right in front of me, that while it certainly
is true that young people do work at McDonald's
and the minimum wage jobs, a significant and
majority of the workers are not kids. They are
often, and I've met them at McDonald's, they
are workers who have children themselves. When
we work very hard to raise the minimum wage at
Amazon and at Disney, We put pressure on both
of those companies and they did the right thing.
And when you talk to the people at Amazon who
got that raise, these are not kids. These are
people in their 30s. These are ordinary adults
who cannot make it on 12 or 13 bucks an hour.
So I think the argument that, oh, they're old
kids is not really quite accurate. Well, not
even that they're all kids, but that if they
are kids, what would you think about making a
minimum wage for someone who's under 18 that's
different from a minimum wage for someone who's
a legal adult? I'm not for that. I think we do
it. And look, many of these young people have
their own needs. I just talked to a young woman
last night who is working, going to college,
working full -time, trying to take care of her
family as well. Look, the minimum wage has not
been raised in 10 years. It is now $7 .25 an
hour, which is clearly unacceptable. The cost
of housing in California, all over this country,
is rising fairly rapidly. People can't afford
health care, can't afford college. I don't think
it's asking our employers too much to pay at
least $15 an hour minimum wage. Now, I'm glad
you brought up Amazon. One of the things that
always freaks me out is when I find out that
enormous corporations that make billions of dollars
have tax loopholes where they literally pay no
money. How is that possible, and how do you stop
that? Well, it's the same thing as the drug companies.
How is it possible that we pay 10 times more
for insulin in this country and for other drugs
than the one in Canada or countries around the
world? And the answer is, it's power. So what
is the goal of major corporations in America?
It's to be deregulated. as much as possible.
So in some cases, they can pollute our water,
our air, our environment. It's also not to pay
any taxes. Trump campaign, as you'll recall,
he said, my tax plan is not going to benefit
the wealthy. It's going to benefit working people.
Well, it turns out over 10 years, 83 % of the
benefit at the end of 10 years goes to the top
1%. That's what these guys do. I remember, I'm
called the ranking member on the budget committee
in the Senate. And some guy came forward representing,
I don't know, one of the big business organizations.
And this is their agenda. Their agenda was to
cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid and
to do away with all corporate taxes. So what
you have right now, that's what greed is about.
They want it all. So as you indicated, you have
a company like Amazon owned by Jeff Bezos who
happens to be the wealthiest guy in America worth
about $150 billion. Amazon paid zero in federal
income taxes. And it's not just them. Dozens
of corporations paid nothing or very, very little.
And on top of all of that, you got these guys
able to stash all over the world trillions of
dollars, trillions of dollars in the Cayman Islands,
in Bermuda, in Luxembourg, and other tax havens.
That is insane. And that has got to end. Yeah.
How is it legal to do that? Why is it legal?
Joe, it is legal because they make the laws.
All right? You know, that is what you're touching
now on the heart and soul of the tragedy of American
politics. How does it happen that on issue after
issue, the American people, the working class
of this country, want something, nobody pays
any attention to it, but billionaires want something,
and it gets done? And that has to do with a corrupt
political system. So right now, If you are the
Koch brothers or some multi -billionaire, you
say to the leadership of the Republican Party
and in some cases to the Democratic Party, hey,
guess what? We're prepared to put hundreds of
millions of dollars in the UK. Hundreds of millions
of dollars coming from one or two people. And
here is my agenda. I want tax breaks. I want
a trade system which will enable me to shut down
in this country and go to China or Mexico and
pay people there two bucks an hour. I want to
be able to do more pollution because I don't
like all of this money I have to spend preventing
pollution of the air or the water. That's what
I want you to do. And by the way, I'm worried
about the deficit. So you may as well cut Social
Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. How many Americans
actually believe that we should give tax breaks
to billionaires and cut Social Security, Medicare,
and Medicaid? Very few. Talk to Mitch McConnell.
Get Mitch on the show. That is exactly what he
believes. But that's ridiculous, right? It seems
that if you just took away those tax breaks,
the enormous amount of money that would come
from those corporations having to pay their fair
share would take care of a lot of the expenses
of all these things that you're proposing. Exactly.
Okay, let's talk about the education, because
the idea of free education is a wonderful thing
for people. I mean, the idea that you get out
of college and you're in debt in an insane amount.
that you might have 10, 20 years where you have
to pay it back. And I know many people that are
in that situation. Joe, there are people who
are getting their Social Security checks garnished
right now. It's not 10 or 20 years. In some cases,
it's literally a lifetime. Now, a lot of that
is, I mean, it's got to, in some way, be preventable
by what we're talking about here. Absolutely.
Is that how you would pay for it? I'll tell you
exactly how we would pay for it. And we pay for
every idea that we have, we pay for it. And we
pay for it by understanding that today we have
massive levels of income and wealth inequality.
And we have in many cases the wealthy and large
corporations paying nothing or very little in
taxes. Here is the issue in terms of education.
40, 50 years ago, you were an average American
working class person. You graduated high school.
Especially if there was a union around, you can
go out and get a job and make it into the middle
class. You could own your own home. You could
send your kids to school. You lived a pretty
good life. You made it in the middle class. Forty
or fifty years later, there's an explosion of
technology. There's a growth in unfettered free
trade. And it is clear now that most people,
to make it into the middle class, are going to
need a higher education. That's college or maybe
it's technical training in order to become a
skilled worker. It is insane to me to deny working
class people and lower income people the opportunity
to get that education because the cost of college
has soared. So all that I say is that 100 plus
years ago, the American people said that we should
have free public education. I went to a public
school. My parents didn't pay a nickel. Went
to kindergarten. I went through the 12th grade.
Pretty good education in Brooklyn, New York.
All that I'm saying is the world has changed.
And a high school degree is not good enough anymore.
So expand that concept through college. Now,
guess what? Fifty years ago, do you know how
much the University of California, a very great
university, cost in terms of tuition? How much?
Virtually free. What's it now? I don't know,
but it's pretty high. It is high. It's thousands
and thousands of dollars. So you had great universities
like the University of California, City University
of New York, state colleges all over this country.
where tuition was virtually free. And then what
happened, for a variety of political reasons,
states and the federal government started cutting
back on higher education and put more and more
burden on the student with higher and higher
tuition, which is where we are today. So all
that I'm saying is in the year 2019, 2020, if
our working class kids are going to go out and
get the jobs that are out there, they need a...
They need a higher education, which should be
tuition -free, in terms of the cancellation of
debt, which is my view. You've got 45 million
people who are dealing with debt. I'll never
forget this. This is where it really hit me.
I was in Burlington, Vermont, and I had a meeting
on an issue. And a young woman comes up, and
she says, she's a doctor. She graduated medical
school. She's very happy. She's practicing in
a community health center, loves what she's doing.
She said, Bernie, I've got to tell you, though,
I am $300 ,000 in debt. having gone to medical
school. I couldn't believe it. I was in Iowa,
a young woman, $400 ,000 in debt. This is not
unusual for medical schools and dental schools.
And, you know, ordinary people, $50 ,000, $100
,000 for going to college or getting a master's
degree. We promised these young people, we said,
go to college, go out and get an education, you'll
get decent paying jobs. Well, the answer is they
have not been able to do that. So what we have
proposed in one piece of legislation or two,
actually. is to make public colleges and universities
tuition -free, cancel all student debt in this
country. That will cost $2 .2 trillion, a lot
of money, over a 10 -year period. We do this
through a tax on Wall Street speculation, which
will bring in $2 .4 trillion. We bailed out Wall
Street 11 years ago. And by the way, these are
crooks on Wall Street who engaged in illegal
behavior, taxpayers against my vote, bailed them
out. If we can bail out Wall Street, you know
what? We can cancel student debt and provide
public colleges and universities tuition -free.
When you say a tax on Wall Street speculation,
what exactly do you mean by that? It will be
a tax on every sale of a tax. People buy and
sell. We have stocks and bonds all of the time.
We have a very modest tax on that. And by the
way, it will have an impact on speculation by
cutting back on the high -frequency trading,
which we now see. So you would just – there's
no current tax on this? Correct. So you would
put a small amount, and that would do the job?
That would finance? That would raise more than
enough money. It's a very small tax. When you
say small, how much? It depends on the nature
of the transaction, but it's less than one -half
of 1%. Really? Yeah. Yeah, because the amount
of stocks being sold. And this is not, again,
a new idea. It's being done in countries all
over the world. Here's one of the darkest things
about student loans is that if you go bankrupt,
it doesn't matter. You still owe that. And that's
kind of crazy. I mean, if you have a serious
medical issue, if you're held up, whatever happens
to you that's awful, you go bankrupt, most of
those things are resolved, but not student loans.
I mean, again, this talks to the – and that has
to do with bankruptcy law, which was passed against
my vote. And while you're on bankruptcy – and
I should have mentioned this before. When you
talk about the healthcare system, a half a million
Americans every single year go bankrupt because
of medical bills that they can't pay. But you're
right. I talked to this guy in Nevada. I'll never
forget it. The guy says, Bernie, you know, I'm
over my – the guy's in his 50s. And he said,
you know, I've been paying off my student debt
for years. I'm going nowhere because the interest
rates are high. And I fear very much, which is
the case, that they will start garnishing, taking
away my Social Security checks, taking money
away from me. So people are carrying this burden.
The result is that they can't, in many cases,
get married and have kids. They certainly can't
buy a home. They can't buy a car. They are really
crushed by this debt. And what was their crime?
What did they do? They've tried to get a higher
education. I think that's pretty crazy. And a
lot of them, when they do this higher education,
they're 18 years old. Imagine making a decision
when your brain isn't even fully formed. It's
going to affect you for the rest of your life.
You got it. Exactly right. And you talk to these
kids. How much debt do you owe? What kind of
interest rates are you paying? Gee, I really
don't know. They just told me to sign OVM. Is
that right? Now, right now, we are a week, not
even a week out, just a few days away from two.
mass shootings in a row and whenever these things
happen there's all these people that want action
but nobody knows exactly what to do there's calls
for gun control there's calls for mental health
reform there's calls for i mean what if anything
can be done to stop these things from happening
and how have you sat down and tried to come up
with some sort of a solution and is there a solution
Look, I would be lying to you if I told you I
had a magical answer. I don't. And this is such
a horrific situation. We had a town meeting.
We were in Nevada, actually, in Las Vegas, when
El Paso happened. And we did a town meeting,
and I said, let's take a moment of silence to
remember the victims and pray for the survivors.
Literally, the next day. in another part of Las
Vegas, I have to do it again. And I said, I can't
believe that just yesterday we did this and I
have to do it again. This is, I don't know what
the words, you know, my friend Beto O 'Rourke
would say, you don't know what words, what can
you say? It happens again and again. Who can
imagine some lunatic walking into a school or
a mall or just on a nightclub area and taking
out an assault weapon and shooting down people?
That we almost become to accept this as a normal
part of American life is incredible. It's just
totally demoralizing. All right. So here's what
I think. There's no magical answer. But let me
tell you what I think. First of all, this is
the reality. The reality is that today as we
speak, there are approximately 400 million guns
in America today. We have more guns than we have
people. We have between 5 to 10 million assault
weapons, and an assault weapon, as you know,
is a military -style weapon designed to kill
human beings kind of rapidly. And then on top
of that, we have, again, nothing to be proud
of, but we have a number of mentally unstable
people, people, for whatever reason, walk in
the streets, they're suicidal, they're homicidal.
That's the mix that we have. I think the answer
is, and I'm not... the guy to invent all these
ideas, but here's some of what we have to do.
First of all, if you want to own a gun in America,
we have got to know that you are a stable person,
and that means that we need to expand the background
checks that currently exist. Okay, so we've got
to know, did you beat up your wife? Have you
committed crimes? Et cetera, et cetera. What
is the state of your mental health? Number two,
we've got to make that universal. Number two,
right now, there is a background check if you
walk into a gun show, into a gun shop, but you
can buy guns in various states at a gun show,
and you don't have to do any of that. You and
I go to a gun show, you sell me a gun, I don't
have to do that. Third of all, I can today legally...
walk into a gun show, pass the background check,
and buy a dozen guns, walk out and sell them
to criminal elements who will use them for bad
things. So I think those are issues that most
Americans believe we have got to deal with, and
we can. Fourthly, I happen to believe, and I
believe this for 30 years, that we should not
be selling or distributing assault weapons in
this country. They are weapons of mass destruction
in a sense. They kill people rapidly as we saw.
And thank God, by the way, when we talk about
both Dayton and El Paso, thank God, cops were
there very, very quickly and did an incredible
job. Because if that guy had walked into the
nightclub, there could have been dozens and dozens
more people killed within a few minutes' time.
I happen to believe, A, that we should not be
selling or distributing assault weapons in this
country. That's my view. So I believe in a ban
on assault weapons. And I think we have got to
begin thinking about when we have 5 to 10 million
assault weapons, which is more than the US military
has, we have to think about a strong licensing
procedure in terms of who owns these assault
weapons. what i think there are many other things
but those are some of the ideas that are out
there now the legal gun owners who are law -abiding
citizens who would never in a million years think
about going around shooting people but they love
guns they hear this kind of stuff about like
banning assault rifles banning assault weapons
they don't even like the term assault weapons
right they like to refer to them as their individual
names for whatever they are these people feel
like this is an inexorable part of being an American,
that you should be able to own a gun. It's written
into our Bill of Rights. It's written into the
way this country was founded. It's the Second
Amendment. What do you say to those people that
don't want to give up their guns, and they want
to protect themselves? They feel like these guns
are viable options to protect themselves from
criminals. I understand that. And Joe, as you
may know, I'm a senator from the state of Vermont.
And the state of Vermont is one of the most rural
states in America. Every fall, we've got thousands
and thousands of people out in the woods hunting.
And it's something that's part of our tradition.
I believe in it. I believe in the Second Amendment.
But all that I ask of the gun owners, and you're
absolutely right, 99 .9 % of gun owners would
never in a million, billion years think of doing
these horrible things. But in the moment that
we are living in, I think that we're all going
to have to make, you know, some concessions to
the reality of what is going on. And that is
that there is a small number of, call them what
you want, brave people who are prepared to do
that. You know, in Australia, you remember that
terrible, New Zealand, I'm sorry, the terrible
shooting at the mosque. And they moved pretty
quickly in an aggressive way. So, you know, I
wish I can say in the best of all possible worlds,
Yeah, you can own any weapon you want and so
forth and so on. We're not living in the best
of all possible worlds. We're living in a world
where we're shocked every day by horror. I agree
we are living in a terrible situation. I mean
there's hundreds of mass shootings a year now,
which is insane. And if you look at the number
in comparison to the rest of the world, it's
crazy. Like a big one in another country is like
three mass shootings in a year. We had more than
270. It's crazy. How would you implement something
like this? Well, the idea of banning assault
weapons has been done. In 1994, we banned assault
weapons. I believe it was for 10 years. That
ban was undone by a Republican majority. And
it didn't, you know, I'm not suggesting, by the
way, that anything here, that if you banned assault
weapons tomorrow, that it would radically change
everything. But we have got to do the best that
we can do. And again, I preface my remarks by
telling you, I don't have a magical solution.
You've got hundreds of millions of guns out there.
You have people who should not be owning these
guns who get set off by God knows what and do
terrible things. All we can do is the best that
we can do. But to say we can't do anything, I
think, is a real disservice to the American.
Now, I'll tell you something else that bothers
me, you know, in addition to the horror of seeing
people lying on the street dead. is what this
is doing to the children of this country. And
I think we underestimate that. I have seven grandchildren.
And for them and for kids all over this country,
you're going to see the falls coming, kids coming
back to school. You're going to see in schools
all over America drills. All right, this is what
you do if somebody walks into the school. All
right, you're going to hide under here. You go
over there. Kids, a couple of months ago, I was
in Iowa. This guy is about six foot two, big
guy, probably a football player. And he says,
Senator Sanders, I got to tell you that the young
people in my school are increasingly frightened,
terrified about what could happen in the school.
Think about what this – the trauma, the trauma
of what this gun violence is doing. So I think
we're all – as Americans, there ain't no easy
answers here. But I think we're all going to
have to come together and figure this one out
and do the best that we can. Now, would that
mean forcibly – removing these guns from people's
homes i don't think you're going to have the
fbi knocking on somebody's doors and taking that
that's not what we do in america but if we have
400 million guns already out there and they're
building more every year right now as we speak
gun manufacturers or make manufacturers are making
more guns this is happening right now so if those
guns already exist it's more than enough oh yeah
how would you stop well again i think look You
know, I do think there should be a ban on assault
weapons. So that means that manufacturers would
not be able to produce or sell those weapons.
To American citizens, but not to the military,
obviously. Right, obviously. Yeah. Okay. So,
you know, and your point is well taken. If you've
got 400 million guns out there, you know. So
I think there are approaches. No one has any
magical solution, but I've given you. I'll tell
you something else that I didn't mention, and
that is the role of gun manufacturers is that.
If you are a gun manufacturer and you are selling
a hell of a lot of guns to a gun store in an
area which normally you would not think. I mean,
these guys know what cities buy, what towns buy,
how many guns. And if suddenly there is a tremendous
demand, you've got to be thinking, why is this
gun store buying so many guns? It doesn't reflect
the population in the area. You've got to deal
with that issue with the gun owners who have
to take some responsibility. besides the guns
the gun manufacturers i'm sorry right besides
the guns the gun manufacturers the other gigantic
issue is mental health the only way any of this
ever happens is someone has to be insanely mentally
depraved that's the only way and many of them
are medicated and many of them are on pharmaceutical
drugs and they have been since they were children
including amphetamines like Adderall and Prozac
and all this different stuff that has varied
effects on the human brain. What could be done
and what would you done to analyze this, to find
out what the cause and effect are, and to try
to figure out what role and how much these drugs
are responsible? Well, two things. Let me respond
first by saying it goes without saying that we
have a mental health crisis in America before
we even talk about drugs. And for whatever reason,
you know, there are a whole lot of people in
the nature of our health care system. Getting
back to health care is I just talked to a woman
literally last night. And we had a town meeting.
And she said, this is unbelievable. She said,
Bernie, I was in Las Vegas when the terrible
shooting took place. And now I am – and I can
understand this perfectly. I'm seeing Dayton
and I'm seeing – watching television El Paso
and I'm getting a PTSD reaction. All right? And
that's totally – if you were in a place where
people were shot down and I'm trying to get counseling,
I can't find it. I remember a guy called up –
a woman called up my office in Burlington, Vermont.
And she said, I'm worried about my husband, what
he – my brother. Was it his brother? What he
might do to himself or somebody else, we're looking
for mental health counseling. We can't find something
that we can afford. So we need above and beyond
gun violence. We need, and this is why I believe
in Medicare for all, mental health is health
care. You break your arm, that's a health issue.
That's a medical issue. Mental health is a medical
issue. And we have got to make mental health
counseling available to all people in this country
when they need it, not six months from now. at
a price they can afford, and under Medicare for
all, it would be free. So that's number one.
Number two, your point about studying the impact
of drugs on people's behavior and possibly resulting
in violence absolutely deserves to be studied.
We should be studying the impact of drugs. In
my view, this is a layman's view, you know, I'm
not a psychiatrist. I worry very much that we
are over -medicating kids in schools. You know,
we have this deficit deficient issue. You know,
kids are running around and they're active. You
know, when I was a kid, people used to run around
and they were active. You know, they weren't
drugged up. So I worry about that whole business.
But your point is well taken. I think we need
to study this issue and make sure that these
drugs, in fact, are not causing kinds of reactions
that we will regret later. Now, on the subject
of drugs, marijuana is obviously a big issue
in this country. And we've seen many states make
it. recreational including this one what do you
think could be done and what should be done to
have this across the especially federally you
know there's a guy that i have on the podcast
coming up soon his name is john norris and he
wrote a book on the cartels growing marijuana
illegally all over this country and selling it
especially particularly in california now because
it's a misdemeanor because it's legal recreationally
and selling it with all sorts of horrible pesticides
on it all sorts of like very In fact, deadly
chemicals. All of this because it's not federally
legal, because we can't have sanctioned, licensed
companies doing an ethical job of growing something
that any responsible, law -abiding person should
be able to consume. Okay. Let me say this. When
I ran for president for the Democratic nomination
in 2016, I talked about a broken criminal justice
system. which ends up having in the United States
more people in jail than any other country. We
have more people in jail than China does, which
is a communist authoritarian country. And what
I call for then and I call for now is the legalization
of marijuana in America. Right now, you have
a federal law. It's called the Controlled Substance
Act. He has heroin. Here is marijuana. They're
at the same level. That is insane. Heroin is
a killer drug. You can argue the pluses and minuses
of marijuana, but marijuana ain't heroin. So
we have to end that, and that's what I will do.
As president of the United States, I believe
we can do that through executive order, and I
will do that. Second of all, what we have now
is a number of states, and I'm very proud. I
talked about during 2016 what seemed kind of
radical. The need to legalize and decriminalize
marijuana, a very radical idea. Four years ago,
it is spreading all over the country. And by
the way, it blows my mind. The drive through
Nevada, I think here even in California, now
you see signs. Corporations, buy our marijuana.
And four years ago, people getting arrested for
doing that, right? Their lives being destroyed.
Well, particularly in Nevada, there was life
sentences given out in the 70s. Can you believe
that? And now you have corporations selling the
damn product that people went to jail for. So
I think... Ultimately, we've got to legalize
marijuana. And what's good news, in a sense,
is some communities, some cities are expunging
the records. So if you were arrested, have a
criminal record for selling marijuana, that is
being expunged, and that is the right thing to
do. We can argue about the pluses and minuses.
I'm not a great fan of drugs. I smoked marijuana
a couple of times. It didn't do much for me.
Other people, I guess, have different impacts.
Just a couple of times? That's right. True. It
didn't do much for you? Yeah, it made me cough.
Where were you getting it? I don't know. It was
in Vermont, northern Vermont. Oh, that's the
problem. Maybe. It'll do something for you. Well,
it made me cough a whole lot. All right. But
I gather other people have had different experiences,
correct? Oh, for sure. Yeah, I certainly have.
The other problem is, of course, with illegal
drugs comes you get this horrible cycle. Particularly
in inner cities where you have people that are
incarcerated for illegal drugs. Illegal drugs
seem to be the only way out. The hard drugs,
when we're talking about cocaine and all these
other drugs, how does one stop that? And would
you ever consider legalizing all drugs or decriminalizing
all drugs? Not at this point, no, I wouldn't.
But you're touching on a real tragedy. Yes. When
we talk about criminal justice in America, we
have over 2 million people in jail. They are
disproportionately African -American, Latino,
and Native American. And here's what I think.
I think in the wealthiest country in the history
of the world, what we have got to do instead
of building more jails and locking up more people,
we really do have to invest in our young people,
especially young people in distressed communities.
What does that mean? If we can, and we can do
this with a proper amount of resources, make
sure the kids are not dropping out of school.
If you drop out of school today, you know, say
you drop out in your second or third year of
high school, you don't have an education, you
don't have any job skills, what are you going
to do with your life? And the answer is you may
well do drugs, you know, or you'll get in trouble,
self -destructive activity or destructive activity,
and you're going to end up in jail. It makes
so much more sense from a humane perspective,
protecting our people. as well as a financial
situation. We're spending $80 billion a year
to invest in these kids. What does it mean? It
means making sure they get the education that
they need, paying attention, having good schools,
making sure that they get the jobs that are out
there, doing job training. There was a principal
in a school in southern Vermont. I'll never forget
what she said. It was a working class school.
And she said, Bernie, I love these kids. I am
not going to let them drop out. And she had a
mentoring program just watching the kids who
are mostly at risk. so that they would not end
up going through the cracks and getting into
trouble. That's what we should be doing as a
nation. And when we do that, we invest in the
kids, we get them jobs, we get them education.
The likelihood of them falling into bad ways
is significantly reduced. All those things sound
great. The uncomfortable reality about drugs,
though, is that when drugs are illegal, criminals
sell them. And there's obviously a need for drugs
in terms of, not necessarily a need, but a demand
for drugs. There's a demand for drugs in this
country that's absolutely fueling Mexican cartels
and illegal drug runners inside this country.
I mean, there's a lot of that. How do you curb
that if drugs are illegal? You're raising a deep
question. All right. So the question essentially
that you're asking is what is the cause of the
opioid epidemic? Yes? That's one aspect of it.
But the opioid epidemic is interesting because
there's so much of it that's coming legally.
That's not the drug cartels. That's the pharmaceutical
industry. You're right. But the heroin is illegal.
Yes. All right. Now you're asking – this is a
very, very deep question, which we don't talk
about terribly much. Why is it that so many of
our people are turning to drugs, to alcohol,
by the way? And I don't mean a drink a night,
but I mean serious alcohol problems. And tragically,
to suicide. We now have for the last three years
something that is ahistorical, never happened
before in modern history. And that is our life
expectancy is actually going down. And this is
hitting. All over the country, but especially
hitting rural areas. And what the doctors are
saying is that these are diseases of despair.
Despair. So you're in West Virginia. You're in
rural Ohio. Or any place, Vermont, any place.
And the job you used to have, earning a decent
living, is now in China. Your kid can't afford
to go to college. Maybe you can't afford health
care. You've got nothing to look forward to.
Under that scenario, drugs become – alcohol becomes
a way out and the worst case is suicide. So I
think what we're talking about is why is this
happening often in rural areas, in urban as well?
And how can we reestablish hope and optimism
in the American people? And that gets back to
a whole lot of other issues. It means if people
have health care as a right, that will certainly
play a role in this thing. They walk into the
doctor when they need. But it also means that
people need decent jobs to pay them a living
wage. That means we have to rebuild rural America.
We have to rebuild the depressed communities
in urban America. It means that we have to have
a great educational system. People say, oh, that's
great, Bernie. That's utopian. It is not utopian.
This is something that in the wealthiest country
in the history of the world we can afford and
we should be doing rather than creating a situation
where Amazon pays zero in federal income taxes.
So to answer your question, this is a deep question.
And again, I'm not here to tell you I have all
the answers. But there are a lot of people out
there who have basically given up hope. And for
those people, I guess drugs is the alternative.
So what you're saying essentially is that if
we can do something to mitigate despair, then
we'll do something to at least stop some of the
demand for these illegal drugs. I believe that
is the case. Look, if I am optimistic, if I'm
excited about going to work tomorrow and I'm
seeing my kid doing great in school, and when
I get sick, I can go to the doctor's office and
have a sense of community. My downtown is not
all boarded up because businesses have left.
But we have a community. Yeah. The strong likelihood
is there will be less diseases of despair and
drugs than we currently see. When we're talking
about impoverished communities and chronically,
when you're talking about cities like Baltimore
or parts of Chicago and Detroit that have just
been in a terrible state of despair for long
periods of time and it doesn't seem like there's
a way out, the people that are born there, the
people that live there, they live in this state
of despair. What can be done to resolve? all
of these terribly impoverished communities and
bring them up to a standard where these kids
that grow up there, they feel like there is an
out, that they do have an opportunity. And why
is this not addressed when we talk about making
America great? Wouldn't like fixing the worst
parts of the country be the primary concern?
The less people that grow up in a terribly disadvantageous
position from birth. Wouldn't that be an important
thing and what can you do to resolve that? Well,
Joe, I think you said it better than I can. I
think you're right. When we talk about what it
means to live in a great society, a great nation,
a nation that we're proud of, I'm afraid there
are some people who have incredible wealth and
power who say, you know what's great? a growth
in the number of billionaires in America. Isn't
that terrific? And we got one guy who's worth
$155 billion. How great? Oh, by the way, we're
building more nuclear weapons. And we're spending
$750 billion a year on the military. Isn't that
extraordinary? And by the way, do you see the
yacht that that billionaire has? You know, it's
three miles long. Isn't that great? Your point
is that we have to, I think, as I understand
what you're saying, we have to redefine what
being a great nation is about. We are not a great
nation when we have 40 million people living
in poverty and in despair. We're not a great
nation when we have massive levels of income
and wealth inequality, when 87 million people
can't afford to go to a doctor today. So to answer
your question, I think that as a nation, we have
got to focus a great deal of attention on those
distressed communities. Often they're African
-American, often they're Latino, often they are
rural white communities. And that means making
sure that the kids there get the quality education
that they deserve, making sure that we're creating
good paying jobs in those communities. I voted
against NAFTA, permanent normal trade relations
with China and other trade agreements because
I knew that those agreements were written by
corporate America with the goal of shutting down
plants in this country and moving abroad. And
the result of that has been the loss of millions
of good paying jobs. the complete destruction
of communities all across this country, in the
South and all across this country. So we have
got to rebuild those communities. We have got
to bring high -tech jobs, not just to Silicon
Valley, but to rural America again. I don't have
magic lances, but the goal is we will not, under
a Sanders administration, turn our backs on distressed
communities. We will rebuild those communities.
We will build the millions of units of affordable
housing. Now think about what it means to a community
now where people are living in terrible housing
or housing they cannot afford. When we put young
people to work rebuilding their own communities,
will that become an indication of hope and optimism?
I think it will. We're talking about so many
deeply important issues and all of them that
will be under the control or at least the direction
of the one person who winds up becoming the president
of the United States. impossible job? I mean,
it seems like being the president, you are managing
so many different aspects of our economy, our
culture, our safety, our environment, international
communication, and it's so in -depth. How does
one person do a job like that? Well, one person
doesn't do it, and you certainly don't do it
by tweeting every other day. Major policy issues.
I think he tweets a lot more than every other
day. What you do, and this is the way any sane
president operates, is you need to be working
with the smartest men and women from all walks
of life who understand these issues. Every issue
we have touched on, Joe, is enormously complicated.
And I can send out a 20 -word tweet on it, but
that doesn't solve it. So unlike Trump, we will
bring together the— best and most knowledgeable
people in this country to address the housing
crisis, to address the issue of these diseases
of despair. We didn't even touch on climate change,
you know, and then the future of the planet.
How do we lead the world in transforming our
energy system and creating the kind of jobs that
we need? How do we revitalize American democracy
so that instead of suppressing the vote, we're
getting more young people involved in the political
process? So to answer your question, it is not
a one -person job, and anyone who thinks it is,
is dead wrong. You need the help of a very strong
administration that knows the issues, that comes
from the ranks of the working class. And this
is the promise I will make. My administration,
unlike Trump's, is not going to be filled with
billionaires who's basically very often greedy
type people. It is going to be filled with the
best people often from the working class itself,
from the trade union movement. people who are
going to help us create policies that work for
workers and not just the billionaire class. Now,
we're getting to the end of your hour here. So
climate change is obviously an enormous issue
for our country and for the world. What could
be done? And what do you think you can do as
president that can somehow or another slow down
this process? Well, first of all, we have to
have a president who, unlike Trump, believes
in science, and I do. And what the scientists
are telling us, as I mentioned earlier, is that
we have fewer than 12 years to transform our
energy system or else there will be irreparable
damage done, not only to our country but to the
world. Now, climate change is not just an American
issue. So we could do tomorrow, do all the right
things, but if China and Russia and India and
the rest of Brazil and Africa does not do the
right thing, we're not going to make the progress
we need. Here is what we have to do in my view.
Number one, we have to tell the fossil fuel industry
that their short -term profits, and they make
a whole lot of money, their short -term profits
are not more important than the future of this
planet. I don't think that's a hard sell to make.
You cannot keep producing a product which is
destroying the planet. in the United States and
around the world. So by saying that, you're saying
you would have to move, we would have to move
consciously away from fossil fuels. No ifs, buts,
and maybes. And if we do that, how do you tell
the fossil fuel companies, do you tell them you
can't sell fossil fuels anymore? There are a
variety of ways to do that, but that is the bottom
line. And by the way, in the midst of that, we
do what we call is a just transition. The guy
out on the oil rig today simply wants to feed
his family, and the coal miners today want to
feed their families. And we're not going to leave
them. I'm a pro -worker. I have probably the
strongest pro -worker record of any member of
the Congress. So it is not my intention to throw
these guys out on the, and women, out on the
street and ignore the pain that they will go
through. We are proposing billions of dollars
to rebuild those communities and make sure that
those guys and women get new jobs. just discarding
people in the fossil fuel industry but ultimately
the product that they are producing which is
now carbon emissions is destroying the planet
so we have to move away from fossil fuel in a
very bold way into energy efficiency right now
in my own state of vermont and all over this
country there are buildings which are incredibly
wasteful we don't have the windows we don't have
the insulation we don't have the roofing the
doors that we need to keep the buildings warm
in the winter, and cool in the summer. And we
can create just an incredible number of jobs
just retrofitting our buildings. Second of all,
we need to move very aggressively to sustainable
energies like wind and solar. In California,
you're doing a good job with wind. Iowa's doing
a good job. Texas, doing a good job. We've got
to do much more. Solar, there is incredible potential
out there. Prices of solar has dropped in recent
years. And we have got to not only transform
the energy system in our own country, we've got
to lead the world in working with Russia and
China. Because in this issue, we are in it together.
And here's my dream, and this may be a utopian
dream. The world right now is spending a trillion
and a half dollars on weapons of destruction
designed to kill each other. And maybe, just
maybe, if we had a kind of leader, and I hope
to be that leader, who says to the world, instead
of spending a trillion and a half dollars killing
each other, Maybe we'll use those resources to
transform the global energy system and save the
planet for our kids and our grandchildren. That's
the goal that I have. Well, these ideas sound
great, but in the competitive environment of
global politics, how would you convince Russia
or China or any of these countries to do something
that would put them in some sort of a competitive
disadvantage? Well, and the answer is… Joe, if
we do not do that in 50, 100 years, everybody's
going to be in terrible disadvantage. And look,
I'm not telling you that tomorrow it's going
to happen. But you've got to make the case. These
people, you know, Putin is a dictator. I dislike
him intensely. You know, Xi in China, very authoritarian,
so forth and so forth. But they're not crazy
people. And presumably they have concern about
their kids and their grandchildren. This is a
planet. You know, I don't want to become a science
fiction. You've all seen the movies, the media
racing toward Earth. We're going to blow up the
Earth. What do we do? Well, we've got to get
together. This is, in a sense, what that is about.
You know what I think about? In 1941, after Pearl
Harbor, all right, we were faced with a war in
the east with China, a war in the west in Europe
with Hitler. Within two years, the United States
had transformed its economy to address. and win
the war basically in two or three years by re
-industrializing America. We can do it. We can
lead the world. That's what we have to do. So
in your eyes, we have to look at the economy
almost as if the same kind of threat. Or, excuse
me, the environment. It's the same kind of threat
as Nazi Germany. And act together. Look, if you
asked the Defense Department, you asked the CIA,
you asked the defense people all over the world,
tell us what the great national security threat
is. You know what it is? It is climate change.
There's a lot of people, though, that are skeptical
of this. How would you convince them? I mean,
this is a big part of the problem, right? There's
a narrative that you hear from a lot of people
that, oh, you know, climate change is not a proven
science and climate change is a hoax. I mean,
this is something that's repeated over and over
again. I'm sure some of it has to do with lobbyists
and some of it has to do with merchants of doubt
that go out there and seed the world with disinformation
to try to increase their profits and continue
the practices that they're currently enjoying.
You know, Joe, when I'm thinking back, and I
don't know if all of you listeners can remember
this because I'm older than most. I can remember
tobacco and cigarette ads on television. Yes.
Doc, the guy dressed in a white frock smoking
away. This is a great cigarette. It'll improve
your health. They lied. The tobacco industry
knew exactly what was going on. And the fossil
fuel industry is lying right now. And the president
of the United States is either too stupid to
understand what the scientists are telling us
or he is lying as well. Climate change. Look,
I am not the scientist. This is not my idea.
I listen to the scientists. The debate is long
over. Climate change is real. My God, look at
what's happening around the world today. July
was, I think, the warmest July or warmest month
in the modern history of the world. The Arctic
ice is melting. Heat waves in Europe. Just look
out the window at what's going on. So this is
not Bernie Sanders talking. This is the scientific
community. Climate change is real. It will only
get worse if we do not act boldly to cut carbon
emissions. Well, we just did an hour, sir, so
I'm going to let you go because I know you've
got very important things to do. One last question.
If you got into the office and you found out
something about aliens, if you found out something
about UFOs, would you let us know? Well, I'll
tell you, my wife would demand that I let you
know. Is your wife a UFO nut? No, she's not a
UFO nut, which is Bernie. Going on. Do you have
any access to Ricketts? You don't have any access?
I don't. Honestly, I don't. Okay. You'll let
us know, though? All right. I'll be on the show.
We'll announce it on the show. Please. Please
do. Thank you, sir. I appreciate your time. Joe,
thank you very much. Thank you very much.