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"Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1006. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Clinical Psychology, Archetypal Symbolism, and the Evolution of Modern Social Structures."
Getting bigger, but the video part is getting

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to a larger percentage. Three, two, one. Gentlemen,

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we're live. Here we go. Jordan Peterson, Brett

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Weinstein, how are you guys? Doing very well.

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Thanks for coming in. Excited to be here. I'm

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excited to have you in. Hey, should be fun. Look

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at you, you're spiffy. You make us look very

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schlubby. What are you doing? What can I say,

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man? You know, I only brought a limited number

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of clothes. Well, good move. You look great.

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Good to see you guys, both of you. And so whose

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idea was it to do this, first of all? I think

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it was Brett's. Yeah, I saw a tweet of Jordan's

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about, or maybe it wasn't a tweet. I did see

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a YouTube clip that somebody tweeted. I don't

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know if it was you. Your perspective on Hitler

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and your argument was that he was actually even

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far worse than his reputation would lead us to

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believe. And it's funny, it harkens back to my

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first evolutionary project. As an undergraduate,

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I was working with Bob Trivers, who's one of

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the leading evolutionary minds of the 20th century.

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I was lucky enough to have him as an undergraduate

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advisor. Pull this sucker right up to your face

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because you're going to turn sideways because

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we're looking at each other next to each other.

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Yeah, yeah. Okay. So anyway, I did a project.

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with Bob on analyzing the Holocaust from an evolutionary

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perspective. I wanted to test the question about

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whether, you know, at the time it was commonplace

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for people to say that Hitler was crazy, and

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there was something that bothered me about that

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analysis. I think there's something actually

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dangerous that we dismiss somebody like Hitler

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as crazy before we understand actually what they're

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up to. So when I saw your video clip, I thought

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it would be worth having a discussion. So that

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we could figure out what perspective makes sense.

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That sounds like an awesome topic. But before

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we get to that, I would really like to know what's

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going on with you. Because you're at the center

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of this crazy controversy of Evergreen State

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College. You essentially left the area. You're

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suing the college now. So where do you stand

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now? We have not yet filed suit, and in fact,

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I can't talk about what took place inside the

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negotiation, but we had our first sit -down with

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the college yesterday, and this was an attempt

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to avert a suit. But I will say, from where I

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sit, as hard as this is to believe, it appears

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that the college has learned nothing from this

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episode and that it is doubling down on the same.

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foolish sets of beliefs and assumptions that

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got it into trouble in the first place. So that

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is not a hopeful situation. No, and for anybody

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that's not aware of what this whole story is

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about, you would either have to go back to Brett's

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podcast that we did a few months back, or please

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just Google Evergreen State University and Google

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Brett, and you will be blown away by the insanity.

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It's social justice warrior gone amok. The whole

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campus, kids patrolling the campus with baseball

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bats. I mean, the whole thing is just completely

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bananas. The president of the university being

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told by the children not to use his hands when

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he's speaking because it's a microaggression.

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So he puts his hands down. The children start

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cheering and laughing. They don't realize they're

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being played. The whole thing is just some crazy

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grand game by the children. And I'm calling them

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children. I don't give a fuck how old they are.

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To have power over people. I mean, essentially

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what this is all boiling down to, and you really

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see it in that moment where they tell him to

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put his hands down, and he does, and they laugh

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and cheer and think it's amazing. Well, you know,

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they're educated to do that to some degree because

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one of the tenets of the postmodernism that they're

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being spoon -fed is that there's nothing but

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power. That's the only thing that mediates relationships

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between people. Because there's no real world.

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Everything's a social construct. And it's a landscape

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of conflict between groups. That's the postmodern

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world. And the only actual means of expression

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is power. That's why the postmodernists make

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the claim constantly that the patriarchy is a

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corrupt institution, because they look at hierarchical

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organizations, and they're stratified, obviously.

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There's people at the top and people at the bottom.

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The only reason that there are people at the

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top is because they dominate by power. There's

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no philosophy of authority or competence. That's

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all gone. And if you're cynical about that sort

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of thing, and you should be, you might say that

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part of the reason that the only thing that the

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postmodernists believe in is power is because

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that helps them justify their arbitrary use of

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it under any circumstances whatsoever. And I

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think that's right. I think that's exactly what

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happens. So it's not surprising that you see

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this manifested in the mob -like behavior of

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the students. It's right in accordance with everything

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they're being taught. Well, they're also being

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taught in this sort of any means necessary. to

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get over the establishment. The establishment

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is this horrible institution and they can justify

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pretty much anything. This is what, like, punch

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a Nazi. Who's a Nazi? Everybody that doesn't

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agree with you. I mean, it's essentially what's

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being said ad nauseum in social justice warrior

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circles, online. I've seen punch a Nazi so many

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times. I mean, but when it came down to Charlottesville,

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there was very little punching of Nazis. You

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know, the whole thing was like, it's all very

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insane. We see real Nazis. Like, those are real

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Nazis. You know, like, go fucking punch them,

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please. Don't even do that, by the way. Well,

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I think we've already figured out, everyone,

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right from the right to the left, everyone's

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figured out that wherever the Nazis went, that

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was wrong. We've all agreed on that. We're not

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going there anymore. And so when someone pops

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up and says, well, we should go there, it's like

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they're immediately identifiable. You can box

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them in. And if you have any sense, like many

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conservatives did in the aftermath of Charlottesville,

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they come out and say, well, in case it needs

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to be said again, we're actually not allied with

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those people. Yeah, well, that was the most disturbing

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thing for many people about Donald Trump's reaction

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to it, that he didn't take a hard stance against

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these white supremacists showing up with tiki

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torches, walking through the street yelling anti

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-Semitic phrases or whatever. I don't know exactly

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what they're yelling. I've read a bunch of different

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things. But the whole thing was an abomination.

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I mean, it was a horrific thing to watch. And,

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you know, Donald Trump comes out and says there

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was horrible behavior on all sides. Yeah, well,

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I thought about that for a lot. because I got

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tangled up with that in a strange way in Canada.

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I was supposed to appear on a panel, a panel

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discussing the suppression of free speech on

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university campuses, which was then promptly

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cancelled by the university that was going to

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host it in the aftermath of Charlottesville,

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partly because one of the panelists was going

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to be Faith Goldie, who was the journalist that

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was covering Charlottesville and got the footage

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of the car and the damage. We were targeted immediately

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afterward with the Nazi epithet, and Ryerson

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shut down the free speech panel. So it's coming

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up again in November 11th. You were targeted

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as Nazis? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What happened was

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this person. put up a Facebook page and used

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a swastika with a no, you know, like a circle

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with a line through it and said, no fascists,

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no fascists at Ryerson, essentially. But she

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used the swastika and she got a bunch of people

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rallied together to pressure the university administration

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into canceling the event, which they promptly

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did. And then they had a celebration party the

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night of the event. And this is, here's something

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that was really interesting. So they got a couple,

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I think a couple of hundred people out to the

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celebration at Ryerson. And they were united

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under the banner of the hammer and sickle and

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were calling for revolution. And what was so

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interesting about that, and I really mean technically

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that it was interesting, was that the mainstream

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media said virtually nothing about the fact that

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these, let's call them counter -protesters, I

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don't know exactly how you'd term them, had come

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out under this murderous symbol. And that's made

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me think, like, I can't figure out why the swastika

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is an immediate identifier of... a pathological

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personality and the hammer and sickle isn't there's

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actually a reason it isn't just arbitrary and

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i think maybe it's something like The Nazi is

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the guy who knifes you in the alley and steals

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your wallet, and the communist is the white -collar

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criminal who takes your pension. And you're actually

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more afraid of the first person than the second

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person, because the damage they do is more proximal

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and emotionally recognizable. But the second

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guy who takes your pension, for example, he's

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perhaps even more dangerous. But there's a bloodiness

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about the Nazi symbol. And an immediate emotional

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impact that the hammer and sickle just doesn't

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produce. And some of that's because people are

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badly educated historically. I think that's it.

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I think it's pure ignorance. Well, I don't think

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it's just ignorance. Do you think that the people

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that are wearing those Che Guevara t -shirts

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really understand the history of Che Guevara?

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Or do you think he represents this sexy South

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American counter -protest character? A guy who

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stands up to the establishment as we know it.

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A guy who's wearing a beret, hiding in the jungle,

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fighting against the oppressive... dictatorship

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of America. I mean, that's what they're looking

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at when they see that image. Well, the fact that

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historical ignorance plays a role in this is

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absolutely certain. And I think the romanticization

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of people like Che Guevara is exactly, I think

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you nailed that exactly. But I do think there's

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a deeper question here. It's like I was thinking

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in the aftermath of Charlottesville, many conservatives

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immediately divorced themselves from the Nazis.

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Ben Shapiro was a good example. And it was very

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much reminiscent of William F. Buckley divorcing

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himself from the John Birch Society back in the

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1960s. The right wing seems, it seems to be easier

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for the right wing to draw a line around the

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Nazis and say, no, that's not us. Partly because

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the right wingers, conservatives, are better

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at drawing boundaries. But, you know, let's say

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we wanted to draw a boundary around the radical

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leftists. Okay, point to something. Well, on

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the right you say, well, you wore a swastika.

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Yeah, you're out of the club, man. On the left?

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Well, what's the smoking pistol? You believe

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in equity? That's a smoking pistol as far as

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I'm concerned, but it doesn't have the same emotional

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punch as you wore a swastika to the protest.

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Yeah, you believe in equity and you refuse to

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define it. That would be the indicator to me.

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Right, but there's no emotional punch in that.

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It's like, well, I'm not going to associate with

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you because you believe in equity. It's too complicated.

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It's right. I do want to back us up here, though,

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because the... I think we underrate the danger

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of, and I think Nazis are a red herring. There

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is something that actually does threaten to reemerge,

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and Charlottesville is a version of it. But I

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think because we have a cartoon understanding

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of what that protest was actually about and how

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many people are actually involved, we don't really

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see why this is a dangerous and contentious issue.

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And I think the answer is... An evolutionary

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one that hasn't been spelled out. And because

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it hasn't been spelled out, it's very hard to

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point to. I hate to keep interrupting you, but

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just get this right up to your face. It sounds

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good to us, but the people listening online are

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going to have an issue. Is that better? Yeah,

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just when you turn to him, just turn the thing

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with you. Okay. Yeah, just get it. Always keep

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it a fist from your face. That's the best. Sorry.

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That's all right. So explain what you mean by

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this. So my point would be that what took place

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in. Germany in the 30s was a particularly visible,

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well -documented example of a pattern that is

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much more common in human history. And because

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this pattern emerges as a result of certain features

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of the way evolution functions in the context

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of humans, it is actually always a danger. that

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it will reemerge. And knowing what to do about

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it is not so simple until you've seen why it

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occurs and what it means. What I've been saying

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in lectures I've given on this is that tyranny

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is the end game of prosperity. And so there is

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a pattern in which you will go through a period

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of prosperousness in which it appears that that

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thing is defeated once and for all. And there's

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no reason for people to be going after each other

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in this particular way. And then at the point

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that that pattern peters out, it reemerges and

00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:39.220
people don't expect that it flies under a different

00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:42.240
flag or something like that. And so I do think

00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:45.440
that looking at the tiny number of people who

00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:48.340
were doing what they were doing. in Charlottesville

00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:52.480
and saying, well, we all agree that this is wrong,

00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:55.960
misses the fact that actually, I think Trump

00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:58.740
is doing it cynically, but Trump was riding a

00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:03.179
wave, that there are ideas which are not permissible.

00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:05.879
from the environments in which we all grew up

00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:08.440
that are going to become permissible again if

00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:11.379
we are not careful to recognize that that's the

00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:13.639
nature of history. I think it's highly probable

00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:15.919
that that's going to occur. I mean, part of the

00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:19.340
reason that I landed in the political hot water

00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:22.159
that I landed in last year was because I was

00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:24.679
increasingly aware that this process of polarization

00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:27.519
was going to take place and that the continual,

00:13:27.620 --> 00:13:30.940
in my estimation anyways, the continual clawing

00:13:30.940 --> 00:13:34.899
of new ground. underneath the radical leftist

00:13:34.899 --> 00:13:37.820
rubric, especially in the universities, is starting

00:13:37.820 --> 00:13:40.700
to produce an extraordinarily dangerous counterposition.

00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.600
And that was manifest, at least to some degree,

00:13:43.659 --> 00:13:46.059
in Charlottesville. And so I think you're right.

00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.200
You don't want to be complacent and say, well,

00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.039
we know who the Nazis are and we're not going

00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:52.940
there, and so the problem is solved. The problem

00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:55.320
isn't solved. There's all sorts of weird activity

00:13:55.320 --> 00:14:00.039
in the... non -radical left space, like on the

00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.080
other side of the radical left, whatever that

00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.480
is. And right now, what it is is not obvious.

00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:07.960
It's the alt -right, that's part of it. It's

00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.480
the Kekistanis, it's this peppy thing. Some of

00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:13.600
it's comedy, some of it's satire, some of it's

00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.379
serious. Some of it's the inversion of identity

00:14:16.379 --> 00:14:19.120
politics, which is very dangerous, and it's maybe

00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:20.799
the most dangerous thing about Charlottesville,

00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:23.399
is that there's something... There's something

00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:25.919
extraordinarily dangerous about having people

00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.960
revert to identification with their racial identity.

00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.980
It's really not a good thing. Well, there's the

00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:35.019
reversion to their racial identity. There's basically

00:14:35.019 --> 00:14:38.039
an outbreak of tribalism, which explains what's

00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:40.320
going on on the far right. What's going on on

00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.899
the left is a bit of a new twist. What you have

00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:46.139
is a coalition of different tribal identities

00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:49.299
that aren't large enough to marshal a force on

00:14:49.299 --> 00:14:53.100
their own, and so they're united. And together,

00:14:53.139 --> 00:14:55.600
they are a formidable force. But what's going

00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.179
to happen is that's an unstable entity. At the

00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:01.120
point that that force gains power, it's going

00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.679
to come apart as internal dynamics rip it up.

00:15:04.379 --> 00:15:11.740
So it's not actually a, it's not capable of restraining

00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:15.460
the version that recurs on the right. the version

00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:19.440
that does manifest as white nationalism, that

00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.259
version is stable because it does represent an

00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:26.179
actual population that has an evolutionary basis

00:15:26.179 --> 00:15:29.480
for remaining cohesive. And I should point out,

00:15:29.500 --> 00:15:32.179
there's a danger when you hear... And evolutionary

00:15:32.179 --> 00:15:35.059
biologists talk about evolutionary patterns.

00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.139
People often infer that if an evolutionary biologist

00:15:38.139 --> 00:15:40.120
is saying that something is a pattern that has

00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:41.919
evolved, that that's some kind of a defense.

00:15:42.059 --> 00:15:44.419
And it is absolutely not. We call this the naturalistic

00:15:44.419 --> 00:15:48.039
fallacy. So evolution is an absolutely amoral

00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.799
process. It has produced the most marvelous features

00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.159
of human beings and the worst features. And we

00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:55.399
are in some sense obligated to pick and choose

00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:58.279
which features to honor and promote and which

00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:02.019
ones to tamp down. Something can have evolved

00:16:02.019 --> 00:16:06.059
as a virtue in some circumstances and still be

00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:08.559
of the type that, if magnified beyond its proper

00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.179
limits, becomes pathological. So let me tell

00:16:11.179 --> 00:16:13.220
you something I learned about Hitler, which really,

00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.220
I haven't recovered from my shock from this.

00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:18.860
So we've been looking at the relationship between

00:16:18.860 --> 00:16:21.860
political belief and personality. Okay, and your

00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:23.720
political belief is strongly determined by your

00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.870
temperament. Liberal left types are high in trade

00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:29.309
openness, that's creativity, and low in conscientiousness.

00:16:29.370 --> 00:16:31.570
But you can fragment conscientiousness up into

00:16:31.570 --> 00:16:34.049
industriousness and orderliness. And the real

00:16:34.049 --> 00:16:36.149
predictor for conservatism is in orderliness,

00:16:36.230 --> 00:16:38.549
not industriousness. And you might think, well,

00:16:38.570 --> 00:16:40.710
that's no surprise. Right -wingers are more orderly,

00:16:40.730 --> 00:16:43.149
hence Hitler's call for order, let's say. But

00:16:43.149 --> 00:16:47.149
it's one thing to posit that and another thing

00:16:47.149 --> 00:16:50.330
to measure it. Now it's measurable. And it appears

00:16:50.330 --> 00:16:53.110
that orderliness is associated with sensitivity

00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:56.159
to disgust. And this is actually a really big

00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:58.460
deal. It's a really big deal. So there's a paper

00:16:58.460 --> 00:17:01.000
that was published in PLOS One about three years

00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.879
ago looking at the relationship between the prevalence

00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.220
of infectious diseases and authoritarian political

00:17:06.220 --> 00:17:08.779
attitudes. And they did it country by country

00:17:08.779 --> 00:17:11.319
and then within countries by state or province.

00:17:11.539 --> 00:17:14.380
And the correlation between the prevalence of

00:17:14.380 --> 00:17:16.940
infectious diseases and authoritarian slash right

00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:18.839
-wing political beliefs at the local individual

00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.740
level was 0 .6. And so I want to take this apart

00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:26.640
a little bit. Okay, so the idea is that this

00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:28.720
is part of what you might describe as the extended

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.359
behavioral immune system. And one of the problems

00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.759
with the interactions between groups of human

00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.440
beings in our evolutionary past was, well, exactly

00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.480
what happened to the Native Americans is, you

00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:39.980
know, they came out and shook hands with the

00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:42.420
Spanish conquistadors. And then within a couple

00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:45.259
of generations, 90 % of them were dead of smallpox

00:17:45.259 --> 00:17:48.339
and measles and mumps. And so it's been a truism

00:17:48.339 --> 00:17:51.539
in our evolutionary past that If you're a group

00:17:51.539 --> 00:17:55.099
of isolated humans and you meet another group

00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:57.599
of isolated humans and you trade pathogens, there's

00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.039
a real possibility that you and everyone you

00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.759
know are going to be dead in no time flat. And

00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:07.240
so we have a disgust mechanism that produces

00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:11.279
this implicit... let's call it racial and ethnic

00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.740
bias that is part and parcel of the human cognitive

00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:15.599
landscape. But the problem with that is that

00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:17.759
it's rooted in a disgust mechanism that actually

00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.359
serves a protective function. Now, when I was

00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:22.859
sorting this out, I was reading Hitler's Table

00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:24.920
Talk. And Hitler's Table Talk is a very interesting

00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:28.819
book. It's a book of his spontaneous mealtime

00:18:28.819 --> 00:18:32.960
utterances from 1939 to 1942. And I went through...

00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.000
with this new knowledge, because people think

00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:38.059
of conservatives or fascists as afraid of those

00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:40.059
who are different. They're not afraid. They're

00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:42.599
disgusted. And that's not the same thing, because

00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.259
you burn things you're disgusted by. And so it

00:18:45.259 --> 00:18:47.039
was terrifying to me to read it, because then

00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.720
I also thought... oh, well, disgust sensitivity

00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.279
is associated with orderliness, and you need

00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.400
order in a society in order to maintain it, and

00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.359
the Germans are very orderly, and that was actually

00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:58.680
a canonical part of their civilization and part

00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.859
of actually what makes them great and powerful.

00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.640
And that just had to tilt a little farther than

00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.440
necessary, and all of a sudden everything needed

00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:08.759
to get cleaned. And, you know, Hitler talked

00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:10.400
about cleanliness all the time, and he actually

00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.049
meant that. And so this thing that's emerging,

00:19:13.210 --> 00:19:15.029
you know, you talked about its biological basis,

00:19:15.069 --> 00:19:17.710
its evolutionary basis. It is. It's part of this

00:19:17.710 --> 00:19:20.809
deeply rooted disgust system that protects us

00:19:20.809 --> 00:19:23.170
from dangerous pathogens that can manifest itself

00:19:23.170 --> 00:19:25.710
and does manifest itself in the political realm.

00:19:25.869 --> 00:19:29.930
It's not good. So I don't know exactly how to

00:19:29.930 --> 00:19:32.349
tease this apart, but I agree with your point

00:19:32.349 --> 00:19:34.430
about there's an actual danger when populations

00:19:34.430 --> 00:19:37.730
meet like a literal pathogen danger and that

00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:40.690
that is liable to have produced a certain instinctive.

00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:44.569
fear of the other, which doesn't have to be limited

00:19:44.569 --> 00:19:46.789
to that one thing, but that's enough to generate

00:19:46.789 --> 00:19:49.849
a selective force that would cause certain reluctance.

00:19:50.650 --> 00:19:54.650
um to meet but i want i want to point out that

00:19:54.650 --> 00:19:57.009
at least in the west and probably universally

00:19:57.009 --> 00:20:01.009
human beings when they go to war tend to dehumanize

00:20:01.009 --> 00:20:03.970
the other population and you know so of course

00:20:03.970 --> 00:20:07.170
uh calling the the other population subhuman

00:20:07.170 --> 00:20:09.650
vermin whatever it is that that human beings

00:20:09.650 --> 00:20:12.250
do and my concern is that we are doing exactly

00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:16.740
this with the Nazis or de facto Nazis who are

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:20.980
showing up on our screens at this point. That

00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:23.180
what we are doing is we are comforting ourselves

00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:25.940
by saying, well, that's a small outbreak of something

00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:28.980
that makes these people subhuman, justifies punching

00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:30.980
them or whatever. And I'm not squeamish about

00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:34.420
there being a right to violence when somebody

00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:38.599
is threatening a way of life. So it's not that.

00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:41.960
But my concern is. That if you take the pathogen

00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:44.480
model and you imagine that all those folks who

00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:46.920
showed up in Charlottesville, that that is a

00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.660
contagion and it needs to be isolated, then you

00:20:49.660 --> 00:20:51.619
will have the sense that as long as you do that,

00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:54.700
it's not going to show up somewhere else. Whereas

00:20:54.700 --> 00:21:00.880
what's, I think, the actual hazard is that that's

00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.400
actually a latent program. that has served populations

00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.099
in past circumstances. It's indefensible, but

00:21:07.099 --> 00:21:09.500
it has served populations. And the populations

00:21:09.500 --> 00:21:12.359
that we come from have it, therefore, on reserve.

00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:15.240
And when certain characteristics show up in the

00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.279
environment, that program can emerge. And so

00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:20.279
my concern is that that's where we are in history.

00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.839
It can't be isolated as a phenomena that's associated

00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:24.740
with the other. Right. And one of the things

00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:27.500
I've done for decades... is teach my students

00:21:27.500 --> 00:21:30.099
a variant of that, which is something like, because

00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:33.079
I try to walk them through understanding, psychological

00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:35.039
understanding of what happened in Nazi Germany

00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.559
and in the more intense situations, like in places

00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:39.900
like in Auschwitz. So the question might be,

00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:42.220
well, if you were in Germany in the 1930s, could

00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:44.960
you be a concentration camp guard? And the gut

00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:47.259
reaction to that is, no, those people are unlike

00:21:47.259 --> 00:21:49.900
me. And that's the wrong response. The right

00:21:49.900 --> 00:21:53.140
response is, those people were human, and I'm

00:21:53.140 --> 00:21:55.619
also human, and so that means that the Nazi is

00:21:55.619 --> 00:21:58.799
us. That's what it means. And who the hell wants

00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.059
to think that? And no one will think that. And

00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:02.799
I have thought that through, because I've thought

00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.519
through, for a variety of reasons, what the limits

00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:09.079
of my potential behavior are. And the limits

00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:11.140
of my potential, and maybe I'm more pathological

00:22:11.140 --> 00:22:12.940
than the average person, it's certainly possible,

00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.380
but I understand that the limits of my potential

00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:18.019
behavior are far beyond the bounds of what people

00:22:18.019 --> 00:22:20.160
would normally consider civilized. And I think

00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.180
that's characteristic of human beings in general.

00:22:22.490 --> 00:22:25.029
Well, I mean, you know, looking. Oh, go ahead.

00:22:25.130 --> 00:22:26.930
No, I was going to say, I think this is one of

00:22:26.930 --> 00:22:28.650
the things that really highlights the importance

00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:32.009
of having uncensored discussions, because we've

00:22:32.009 --> 00:22:35.650
we've already hit on so many hot topics to the

00:22:35.650 --> 00:22:38.390
point where you have to really clarify your position.

00:22:38.410 --> 00:22:41.619
And when you're talking about this. sort of latent

00:22:41.619 --> 00:22:44.940
program in in human beings and the the necessity

00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:47.980
for it at one point in time like all these things

00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:50.859
are very taboo to discuss today and this is a

00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:52.759
giant issue because what you guys are doing is

00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:57.339
talking about things objectively reasonably logically

00:22:57.339 --> 00:23:01.779
and and clearly but when you get to these sort

00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:05.440
of hysterical subjects That's that's sort of

00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:07.779
forbidden today And there's a giant issue with

00:23:07.779 --> 00:23:10.700
that because when you have forbidden discussions

00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:14.880
you energize those topics and the the topics

00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.799
grow in the absence of discussion and the absence

00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.440
of being picked apart and Analyzing them for

00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:22.539
what their core components are and we're talking

00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:24.960
about it from an evolutionary perspective This

00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.859
is very very important because these patterns

00:23:27.859 --> 00:23:31.859
are reemerging we do see that and I think Any

00:23:31.859 --> 00:23:35.059
one of us, given the wrong neighborhood, the

00:23:35.059 --> 00:23:38.220
wrong parents, the wrong life, we might have

00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:39.940
been one of those assholes with the tiki torches

00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:42.079
in Charlotte. I mean, we're human beings, like

00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.200
you said. I think that is absolutely critical

00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.680
to discuss. Well, and it's also, there's another

00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.900
thing going on right now. I've been trying to

00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:54.440
characterize the state of the... sociological

00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:57.079
and psychological landscape that we all inhabit

00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.460
right now. And I think we're in a position of

00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:02.140
radical instability and things in the future

00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:04.059
could be way better than they are right now.

00:24:04.410 --> 00:24:06.690
radically, and they could be way worse than they

00:24:06.690 --> 00:24:09.789
are. And small decisions are going, the small

00:24:09.789 --> 00:24:11.650
decisions that people make are going to have

00:24:11.650 --> 00:24:14.009
outsized effects while they make them. Like,

00:24:14.049 --> 00:24:16.049
look at what happened with this guy in Charlottesville.

00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:18.849
You know, this was, I mean, I know he was surrounded

00:24:18.849 --> 00:24:22.289
by a coterie of deplorables, let's say, but it

00:24:22.289 --> 00:24:24.589
was one guy who decided to do something murderous.

00:24:24.609 --> 00:24:26.690
And that shifted the whole political landscape.

00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:30.089
And so what I see happening right now is that

00:24:30.089 --> 00:24:32.859
we're surrounded by... these interactions between

00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:35.519
people that are positive feedback loops. And

00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.339
a positive feedback loop occurs when, if you

00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:40.960
do something, then it makes whatever caused that

00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.279
occur even in a greater way. And the polarization

00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.859
is like that. So I say something left -like,

00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:48.099
and you say something right -like, and that annoys

00:24:48.099 --> 00:24:50.119
me, so I get more left, and it annoys you, and

00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:51.799
you get more right, and all of a sudden we're

00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:53.480
at each other's throats. And that's happening

00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.839
everywhere, right? It's very unstable. And what's

00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.119
to be hoped for is that we can... pull back from

00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:02.299
that and discuss it. We can say, look, you know,

00:25:02.339 --> 00:25:05.240
under circumstance A, I could have been a communist

00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:08.039
inquisitor or a Nazi prison guard. I need to

00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:10.400
know that. And then I need to know, what were

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.359
the situations that made that likely? And then

00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:14.460
I need to know, how should I conduct myself so

00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:16.680
that's less possible? And the only way we can

00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.259
figure that out is to have the kind of conversations

00:25:18.259 --> 00:25:20.480
that we're having right now. It's like, and this

00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:23.319
isn't them. I've been taken to task by some of

00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:25.099
my friends, for example, for using the social

00:25:25.099 --> 00:25:27.539
justice warrior terminology, because they've

00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:30.170
said to me, well, you know, you're you're participating

00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:33.089
in this process of demonization and polarization.

00:25:33.390 --> 00:25:35.549
And I think, well, yeah, I can understand that.

00:25:36.069 --> 00:25:39.410
Although I'm also radically concerned about the

00:25:39.410 --> 00:25:41.230
fact that the universities, for example, are

00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:44.009
completely taken over by radical Marxists, essentially,

00:25:44.210 --> 00:25:46.650
and that they're driving this polarization. And

00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:48.809
it isn't obvious to me how to have a discussion

00:25:48.809 --> 00:25:52.269
about that without participating in the process

00:25:52.269 --> 00:25:54.250
of polarization. It's something I've been trying

00:25:54.250 --> 00:25:58.710
to figure out for the whole last year. been emphasizing

00:25:58.710 --> 00:26:01.369
the role of personal responsibility instead of

00:26:01.369 --> 00:26:03.890
ideological identification, right? Get it into

00:26:03.890 --> 00:26:05.849
your head that you have the capacity for great

00:26:05.849 --> 00:26:10.089
evil and stop targeting, stop assuming that that's

00:26:10.089 --> 00:26:12.109
something that's manifesting itself only in the

00:26:12.109 --> 00:26:14.170
people that you disagree with politically. Take

00:26:14.170 --> 00:26:16.650
responsibility for that and try to put your life

00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:18.690
together. I don't see an alternative to that,

00:26:18.769 --> 00:26:24.269
but it's been very difficult to avoid... to do

00:26:24.269 --> 00:26:27.509
that and simultaneously to avoid becoming a participant

00:26:27.509 --> 00:26:29.730
in this process of polarization. And it's a very

00:26:29.730 --> 00:26:31.910
dangerous process. It's what destabilized Germany

00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:35.009
in the 1920s and 30s, right? It was this ping

00:26:35.009 --> 00:26:37.509
-ponging back and forth between the radical left

00:26:37.509 --> 00:26:39.630
and the radical right. And your point, Brett,

00:26:39.710 --> 00:26:41.829
that the radical right actually is more powerful

00:26:41.829 --> 00:26:43.809
once they get organized is a really good one

00:26:43.809 --> 00:26:46.329
because there's no fractionation. It's more stable.

00:26:46.470 --> 00:26:49.089
You bet. And they have all the guns. That's another

00:26:49.089 --> 00:26:52.410
thing to think about. Certainly, in this country,

00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:54.670
the right is much better armed, and that's a

00:26:54.670 --> 00:26:57.569
very frightening fact. That's a terrifying thought.

00:26:58.750 --> 00:27:01.910
We've heard this many times recently about the

00:27:01.910 --> 00:27:04.750
Trump administration, about if he's impeached,

00:27:04.809 --> 00:27:07.289
that there will be some sort of a civil war.

00:27:07.450 --> 00:27:09.849
I believe Roger Stone said that. This thought

00:27:09.849 --> 00:27:14.109
is so terrifying that we literally cannot do

00:27:14.109 --> 00:27:19.140
anything to stop some sort of... physical confrontation

00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:23.279
with weapons if we disagree ideologically that

00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.500
it's going to happen well first of all there's

00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:28.839
a lot we can do and in fact you know one of the

00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:30.819
other things about about the evolutionary toolkit

00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:34.099
is that i believe we have exactly the tools for

00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:36.920
navigating this puzzle they're built into us

00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.880
also in addition to this latent program but we

00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.059
are now in a very dangerous situation because

00:27:43.059 --> 00:27:47.259
for example If Google and other of these online

00:27:47.259 --> 00:27:51.559
Goliaths start deploying algorithms that decide

00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:55.259
what we get to talk about and see, then we cannot

00:27:55.259 --> 00:27:58.240
use the very tools that are necessary in order

00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:01.319
to escape. and avoid something like civil war,

00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:03.160
which frankly... Open communication and debate,

00:28:03.339 --> 00:28:07.720
analyzing all the components of this issue completely

00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:10.039
objectively. Exactly. Yes, and taking the risks

00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:12.140
that are necessary with that, and some of the

00:28:12.140 --> 00:28:14.859
risks are that if we have free and open communication,

00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:17.180
that some percentage of that communication is

00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:20.170
going to be reprehensible and deplorable. But

00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:23.190
that the consequences of suppressing that are

00:28:23.190 --> 00:28:24.970
so much more dangerous than the consequences

00:28:24.970 --> 00:28:27.049
of allowing it that they're not in the same universe.

00:28:27.210 --> 00:28:30.549
Yes, we empower those terrible ideas by making

00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:34.150
them, I mean, electronically taboo. And then

00:28:34.150 --> 00:28:36.630
the point is they're going to fester. Whereas

00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:39.759
if we discuss them... We can diffuse the ones

00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:41.539
that are terrible, we can spot the opportunities

00:28:41.539 --> 00:28:45.039
that we don't know we have, and we can move forward

00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:47.279
rather than descend into civil war, which frankly

00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.680
looks more and more likely. And this issue with

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:52.000
Google and YouTube, let's say, and these other

00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.960
gigantic internet companies, it isn't a matter

00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.759
of if they're going to produce automated bots

00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:01.430
that do pre... perceptual censorship. They are

00:29:01.430 --> 00:29:05.109
doing that. Well, to explain what happened with

00:29:05.109 --> 00:29:08.869
him. He tweeted the other day that and I knew

00:29:08.869 --> 00:29:10.589
this was in the workings because I'd been looking

00:29:10.589 --> 00:29:12.369
at what YouTube and Google are planning with

00:29:12.369 --> 00:29:15.250
regards to their artificial intelligence sensors,

00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:17.490
let's say. You know, they want to get to the

00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:22.349
point where the appalling video is not even put

00:29:22.349 --> 00:29:25.710
up. So what happened, I hope I've got this exactly

00:29:25.710 --> 00:29:29.180
right, but Gad YouTube was in the process, you

00:29:29.180 --> 00:29:30.960
upload a video and then you publish it. And so

00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.420
once you upload it, YouTube has access to it

00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:35.160
and they have access to its content. And they

00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:37.619
informed him that it would be demonetized before

00:29:37.619 --> 00:29:40.039
he published it. There it is right here. We put

00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:42.500
it up on the board. There you go. YouTube thinks

00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:44.779
that my pointing to astounding hypocrisy is too

00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:48.220
triggering. There is nothing objectionable in

00:29:48.220 --> 00:29:51.099
my clip. Unbelievable. Yeah, and that one was

00:29:51.099 --> 00:29:54.000
a manual review, so I'm wrong about that. Although,

00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.000
how in the world they decided that they were

00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.539
going to manually review Gad's video is also...

00:29:59.539 --> 00:30:01.240
I mean, how many videos are going up on YouTube?

00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:03.500
What the hell? Why are they manually reviewing

00:30:03.500 --> 00:30:06.599
his? And I mean, Gad Saad is not a radical, right?

00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:08.079
Not at all. That's the thing. I mean, he's an

00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.240
evolutionary biologist, and that makes him a

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.640
radical. Now, it does, because he's a biological

00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:14.859
essentialist. Because he's questioning what's

00:30:14.859 --> 00:30:17.299
happening. And by questioning what's happening,

00:30:17.500 --> 00:30:19.940
you instantaneously get lumped together. into

00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:22.559
this right -wing hate group. Well, and he's also

00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.660
making the claim that human beings have an intrinsic

00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:27.019
nature. And so now there's a new buzz phrase

00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:29.859
that goes along with that. And so that's that

00:30:29.859 --> 00:30:32.299
you're a biological essentialist. And you see,

00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:35.039
so if you're a radical postmodern neo -Marxist,

00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.660
your theory is human beings can be anything that

00:30:37.660 --> 00:30:40.400
I want to make them into. It's a core doctrine

00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.940
of the theory, and it's part of what makes it

00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:45.200
intensely totalitarian, because then human beings

00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.259
are just putty for the molding, and that's part

00:30:47.259 --> 00:30:50.059
of the motivational drive for claiming the radical

00:30:50.059 --> 00:30:52.079
constructionist claim. There's no biological

00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:54.579
essence. Well, why do you make that claim? Well,

00:30:54.619 --> 00:30:56.599
because we want to free people from... prejudice

00:30:56.599 --> 00:30:58.420
and tyranny. It's like, no, that's not why you

00:30:58.420 --> 00:31:00.839
make that claim. You make that claim because

00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:02.920
you want to justify your claim that there's absolutely

00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:05.500
nothing wrong with making over humanity in the

00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:11.039
image of your ideology. And that was a well -documented

00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.440
intellectual argument that... wove through what

00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:16.339
happened in communist Russia, for example, because

00:31:16.339 --> 00:31:18.779
the claim there explicitly was you wipe out the

00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:21.619
past. There's no real biological identity. You

00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:24.380
can mold the human of the future in the image

00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:27.859
of your perfectionistic ideology. And the Russians

00:31:27.859 --> 00:31:31.140
actually... sidelined themselves effectively

00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:34.539
with respect to evolutionary theory, that basically

00:31:34.539 --> 00:31:37.359
they were so backward on a biological front that

00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:42.140
as they were deploying this very broken ideological

00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:46.380
toolkit, they were wrecking their ability to

00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:50.220
think about how biology works. And so what you're

00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:52.220
pointing to about evolutionary biologists, it's

00:31:52.220 --> 00:31:56.319
not just that we question. The content of evolutionary

00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:01.000
biology is... Absolutely the opposite of politically

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.799
correct. Yes, exactly. Because nobody tells the

00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:05.839
biota what's right and what's wrong, the biota

00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:08.480
does what it does. And those of us who look at

00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:12.180
it and attempt to understand what those patterns

00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:16.420
are can't help but be deeply politically incorrect

00:32:16.420 --> 00:32:19.720
almost all the time. And so the idea that the

00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.240
truth of biology is actually going to become

00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:25.660
unexpressible. And we're going to move ahead.

00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.079
We're just going to we're going to we're going

00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.559
to sideline it so that we can move ahead with

00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:32.380
this ideological stuff. I mean, that is cutting

00:32:32.380 --> 00:32:34.380
off your nose. That's already happening. So biology

00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:40.720
is racist and sexist. Well, if I might, biology

00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:43.339
and we're going to have to go back here in order

00:32:43.339 --> 00:32:48.220
to collect a tool. But biology does create entities

00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:52.329
that have the. potential for racism in them.

00:32:52.349 --> 00:32:55.190
In our genomes, we carry the potential for racism

00:32:55.190 --> 00:32:59.869
for Darwinian reasons. Sexism is a little different,

00:33:00.049 --> 00:33:04.029
right? It is. So I'm about to become very politically

00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:11.750
incorrect. Yeah, I know. It is not possible for

00:33:11.750 --> 00:33:15.670
male genes to gang up on female genes because

00:33:15.670 --> 00:33:19.170
all of our genes spend. half their time in male

00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:21.269
bodies and half their time in female bodies,

00:33:21.349 --> 00:33:23.650
which does not mean that civilization is fair

00:33:23.650 --> 00:33:26.009
with respect to sex and gender. But it does mean

00:33:26.009 --> 00:33:28.609
that there's no biological basis for the evolution

00:33:28.609 --> 00:33:33.269
of a patriarchal force that subordinates women

00:33:33.269 --> 00:33:36.529
because whatever the patriarchy does, those who

00:33:36.529 --> 00:33:39.509
are part of the patriarchy become female in the

00:33:39.509 --> 00:33:41.390
next iteration and they suffer the consequences

00:33:41.390 --> 00:33:45.210
of it. This is not the case with race. Unfortunately,

00:33:45.369 --> 00:33:47.789
this is not a good thing. But it is a true thing.

00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:52.490
In a Darwinian sense, one population can gang

00:33:52.490 --> 00:33:54.529
up on another population. And it has happened

00:33:54.529 --> 00:33:56.769
again and again. It explains all of the worst

00:33:56.769 --> 00:34:00.950
chapters in human history. And so in some sense,

00:34:00.950 --> 00:34:03.650
what I'm getting at is that you want to understand

00:34:03.650 --> 00:34:06.150
that process. And once you understand what your

00:34:06.150 --> 00:34:08.809
genes are actually up to and you understand that

00:34:08.809 --> 00:34:11.489
your genes, their objectives in the universe

00:34:11.489 --> 00:34:14.469
are not defensible. what your genes want cannot

00:34:14.469 --> 00:34:18.570
be defended in rational terms, then we become

00:34:18.570 --> 00:34:20.969
free to do something else, to recognize that

00:34:20.969 --> 00:34:23.010
our genes are up to things that we don't have

00:34:23.010 --> 00:34:27.969
any reason to honor. And we can basically take

00:34:27.969 --> 00:34:31.050
them out of the control position. But if we imagine

00:34:31.050 --> 00:34:34.369
that what our genes are up to must be all right,

00:34:34.389 --> 00:34:36.269
and therefore it can't include anything like

00:34:36.269 --> 00:34:38.570
racism, then we're just stuck. Then we don't

00:34:38.570 --> 00:34:43.190
have the tools to diffuse racism. So one of the

00:34:43.190 --> 00:34:47.230
things that happened when I made my video a year

00:34:47.230 --> 00:34:50.530
ago complaining about Bill C -16 in Canada, and

00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:52.250
that was the one that instantiated transgender

00:34:52.250 --> 00:34:54.269
rights, one of the things I was pointing to,

00:34:54.389 --> 00:34:56.650
like my comments had nothing to do with transgender

00:34:56.650 --> 00:34:58.610
rights, but one of the things I was pointing

00:34:58.610 --> 00:35:01.710
to was that Canada had built into the law a social

00:35:01.710 --> 00:35:04.170
constructionist version of human identity, and

00:35:04.170 --> 00:35:06.489
that's actually the case. So, for example, now

00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:09.949
in Canada, here's a proposition which now has

00:35:09.949 --> 00:35:13.219
the force of law. There is no causal connection

00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:16.739
between biological sex, gender identity, gender

00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:20.239
expression, and sexual proclivity. Technically.

00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:23.219
It's illegal to make a claim that those things

00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:26.159
are causally linked. And the causal link claim

00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.780
is a biological claim. And not only is it a biological

00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:31.440
claim, it's a factual claim. Those four levels

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.760
are so tightly linked causally that there's hardly

00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:37.380
any exceptions. There are exceptions. So because

00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:40.179
almost everyone whose biological sex is male

00:35:40.179 --> 00:35:43.539
considers themselves male, manifests themselves

00:35:43.539 --> 00:35:47.179
as male, and is heterosexual. So they're linked.

00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:48.840
And the reason they're linked is, well, there's

00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:51.019
biological and cultural reasons, but it's now,

00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:54.360
in Canada, the proposition that they're independent

00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:57.539
is now law. And I was pointing to that, saying,

00:35:57.619 --> 00:35:59.019
we don't want to do that. You don't understand.

00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:01.099
You've built social constructionism into the

00:36:01.099 --> 00:36:03.800
law. That means that now it's illegal to be a

00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:06.519
biologist. Well, and everybody said, oh, no,

00:36:06.619 --> 00:36:08.960
no, no, that's not happening. It's like, don't

00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.099
kid yourself. When you put things in the law,

00:36:11.099 --> 00:36:13.639
things happen. And we were accused not only of

00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:16.099
being Nazis, and that was part of the reason

00:36:16.099 --> 00:36:20.159
that this talk was shut down, but also of being

00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:23.920
biological essentialists. And biological essentialism

00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:26.909
is the new buzzword for... For Nazi, essentially.

00:36:27.429 --> 00:36:31.190
Please do. I want to correct you. It's not that

00:36:31.190 --> 00:36:33.190
it's illegal to be a biologist. It's just illegal

00:36:33.190 --> 00:36:37.010
to be any good at it. Okay, well, that's even

00:36:37.010 --> 00:36:39.650
more effective, I would say. So is there concern

00:36:39.650 --> 00:36:47.429
that putting biology as fact, it will get in

00:36:47.429 --> 00:36:50.539
the way of civilization? Because we're supposed

00:36:50.539 --> 00:36:54.000
to be moving past all of these issues. We're

00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.159
supposed to be moving past these things as we

00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:58.320
evolve. We're supposed to be looking at people

00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.820
as being free to choose whatever gender they

00:37:00.820 --> 00:37:03.659
like, free to choose whatever sexual orientation

00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:06.159
they like, free to express themselves in any

00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:09.280
way, and that by defining them by purely biological

00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:12.820
terms, we're essentially relying on the meat

00:37:12.820 --> 00:37:15.440
wagon to lead us through civilization rather

00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.059
than the mind. That's great. You did a very good

00:37:18.059 --> 00:37:21.019
job of... outlining the credible case against

00:37:21.019 --> 00:37:23.960
biological essentialism, because it can deteriorate

00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:26.079
into something like eugenics. There's a real

00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.420
danger, like a political danger, on the side

00:37:28.420 --> 00:37:30.980
of biological determinism. But there's a danger

00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:33.460
in denying it as well, because then we can't

00:37:33.460 --> 00:37:37.139
use our rational minds to truly mitigate whatever

00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:40.079
issues that we would have with our biological

00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:43.519
urges. That's the irony of this, is that actually

00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:47.340
there is an argument to be made that we need

00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:51.030
freedom. from our biology. Yes. And we have the

00:37:51.030 --> 00:37:53.269
capacity to do it. Most creatures wouldn't, but

00:37:53.269 --> 00:37:55.469
the way human beings are constructed, we absolutely

00:37:55.469 --> 00:37:57.809
have the ability to be rational about these things

00:37:57.809 --> 00:38:00.989
and decide which things we want to bring into

00:38:00.989 --> 00:38:03.590
the future. But we can't do it if we don't discuss

00:38:03.590 --> 00:38:05.389
these things in honest terms. Well, a subset

00:38:05.389 --> 00:38:09.099
of males are... are biologically hyper -aggressive.

00:38:09.099 --> 00:38:11.599
You can identify them at two years of age. And

00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:13.079
they're the kids, if you put a bunch of two -year

00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:14.800
-olds together, there's a small subset, they're

00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.699
almost all males, about 5 % of males, who will

00:38:17.699 --> 00:38:21.480
kick, hit, bite, and steal. Okay, so that's their

00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:23.880
biological programming, let's say. But the vast

00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:26.940
majority of them are socialized by the time they're

00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:30.510
four years old. That's amazing. Yeah, sure, absolutely.

00:38:30.829 --> 00:38:33.289
I mean, it is. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And the

00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:37.150
thing about boys like that is that if you socialize

00:38:37.150 --> 00:38:39.050
them properly, it's quite a bit of work because

00:38:39.050 --> 00:38:40.989
they're very combative. My son was like that.

00:38:41.230 --> 00:38:44.150
And if you socialize them properly, then they

00:38:44.150 --> 00:38:46.849
can become unbelievably useful. They're courageous,

00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:50.530
they're forthright, they're not going to back

00:38:50.530 --> 00:38:53.090
down from a challenge. There's all sorts of massive

00:38:53.090 --> 00:38:55.349
utility in that, and that's this proper interplay

00:38:55.349 --> 00:38:57.710
between the biological circuitry and the socialization.

00:38:59.289 --> 00:39:01.829
You know, and with James Damore's memo, you know,

00:39:01.849 --> 00:39:06.090
he's been accused of taking a biological essentialist

00:39:06.090 --> 00:39:08.769
route, which is not true. One of the things James

00:39:08.769 --> 00:39:12.110
said is, look, there's credible evidence that

00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:14.550
there are biologically mediated differences between

00:39:14.550 --> 00:39:16.510
men and women at the level of temperament and

00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:18.929
interest that are actually large and profound.

00:39:19.130 --> 00:39:22.889
And I would say the science on that is sufficiently

00:39:22.889 --> 00:39:25.670
settled so that someone can come out and say

00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:28.579
that's scientifically credible. Now, that doesn't

00:39:28.579 --> 00:39:30.059
mean it's right, because the scientists could

00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:32.599
be wrong. But what you can't say is that what

00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:35.039
James Damore said was scientifically uninformed.

00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.920
It was scientifically informed. But he also said,

00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:41.579
look, let's make the assumption, I'm paraphrasing

00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:43.139
slightly, but let's make the assumption that

00:39:43.139 --> 00:39:45.380
we want to, as a society, we want to extract

00:39:45.380 --> 00:39:49.280
maximum useful economic value from talented people.

00:39:49.900 --> 00:39:51.940
So one of the things we want to do is if some

00:39:51.940 --> 00:39:53.519
of those people are women and some of them are

00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:55.739
men, we want to understand the actual differences

00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:58.260
between women and men so that we can set up the

00:39:58.260 --> 00:40:00.980
workplace so that both women and men can contribute

00:40:00.980 --> 00:40:03.300
to the maximum economically so that they can

00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:05.260
benefit as individuals and everybody can benefit

00:40:05.260 --> 00:40:08.460
socially. So you can use the biological... So,

00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:10.900
I mean, for example, one of the things... Here's

00:40:10.900 --> 00:40:13.940
a biological problem. On average, women are more

00:40:13.940 --> 00:40:16.429
agreeable than men. And I think that's because

00:40:16.429 --> 00:40:19.329
agreeable people are self -sacrificing. And I

00:40:19.329 --> 00:40:21.429
think as a woman, you need to be wired to be

00:40:21.429 --> 00:40:23.550
self -sacrificing or you won't be able to tolerate

00:40:23.550 --> 00:40:26.070
taking care of infants. That's my sense of it.

00:40:26.309 --> 00:40:28.369
Okay, now there's some problems with that. It's

00:40:28.369 --> 00:40:30.670
like, let's say that a huge part of female wiring

00:40:30.670 --> 00:40:33.809
is tilted in the direction of the necessity of

00:40:33.809 --> 00:40:36.630
self -sacrifice for infant care. Okay, that doesn't

00:40:36.630 --> 00:40:38.929
equip women very well for dealing with aggressive

00:40:38.929 --> 00:40:41.570
men. Because aggressive men and infants are not

00:40:41.570 --> 00:40:44.519
the same creatures. So women play a... pay a

00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:48.179
price, being optimized to some degree for infant

00:40:48.179 --> 00:40:51.619
care, they pay a price that they're less, what

00:40:51.619 --> 00:40:53.599
would you call, prepared, that's one way of thinking

00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:56.739
about it, with dealing with hyper -aggressive

00:40:56.739 --> 00:40:59.179
and competitive men. Well, one of the consequences

00:40:59.179 --> 00:41:01.400
of that is that agreeable people don't make as

00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:03.980
much money. And the reason for that is to make

00:41:03.980 --> 00:41:05.800
money, you actually have to be disagreeable because

00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:07.980
you have to go to your boss and say, give me

00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:10.280
some bloody money or something you don't like

00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:13.280
will happen to you. You have to be able to fight

00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:17.639
for an idea, too. But so there's something that

00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:20.400
this is a perfect test case. So biologically

00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:23.260
speaking, there's a very good reason for certain

00:41:23.260 --> 00:41:26.019
kinds of wisdom to be biased in the direction

00:41:26.019 --> 00:41:30.199
of manifesting in females. Females, because they

00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:33.159
have the capacity to have fewer offspring in

00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:38.039
a lifetime than males, are obligated, as you

00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:41.690
say, to. to care in a particular way. And the

00:41:41.690 --> 00:41:44.130
fact that care in human beings takes so many

00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:47.230
years has resulted in menopause emerging. And

00:41:47.230 --> 00:41:49.570
menopause, essentially, when a woman is done

00:41:49.570 --> 00:41:54.030
producing new offspring, her interests in, her

00:41:54.030 --> 00:41:56.090
evolutionary interests, which in this case I

00:41:56.090 --> 00:41:59.190
think are honorable, become synonymous with...

00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:01.940
the lineage, the population, because her offspring

00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:04.960
will either do well or do poorly based on the

00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.380
population that they're in. So women have a kind

00:42:08.380 --> 00:42:11.239
of farsightedness about lineage. And I don't

00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:12.539
think this has anything to do with human women,

00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.159
actually. This is a trait that we can see in

00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:19.400
females of other species. So it's an ancient

00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:22.769
thing. Whereas males are... high variance. That

00:42:22.769 --> 00:42:25.750
is to say, a male can have many offspring in

00:42:25.750 --> 00:42:27.889
a lifetime. Many males have no offspring in a

00:42:27.889 --> 00:42:30.369
lifetime. And that high variance means that to

00:42:30.369 --> 00:42:32.030
the extent that there's wisdom that surrounds

00:42:32.030 --> 00:42:34.809
risk -taking, that has traveled historically

00:42:34.809 --> 00:42:39.010
along the male path. Now, in modern times, there's

00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:41.769
no reason that we can't look at these two kinds

00:42:41.769 --> 00:42:45.789
of wisdom and democratize them both. Right. The

00:42:45.789 --> 00:42:47.570
fact is, there's no reason if you're born female

00:42:47.570 --> 00:42:50.469
that you can't tune into what has historically

00:42:50.469 --> 00:42:53.789
been male biased wisdom and take advantage of

00:42:53.789 --> 00:42:55.920
that. And we should be encouraging this. There's

00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:58.039
no reason that people have to continue... The

00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:00.579
problem is that we can't actually have a reasonable

00:43:00.579 --> 00:43:03.380
discussion about it, because the discussion is

00:43:03.380 --> 00:43:05.179
often forestalled by the claim that, well, men

00:43:05.179 --> 00:43:07.460
and women are exactly the same. It's like that's

00:43:07.460 --> 00:43:10.300
not a helpful discussion. And with the agreeableness

00:43:10.300 --> 00:43:12.159
issue, I don't know exactly what should be done

00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:14.059
about that, but one of the consequences of it

00:43:14.059 --> 00:43:18.860
is that there's many reasons why there's pay

00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:20.679
differential between men and women, and the issue

00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:22.920
itself is very complex. But we do know that agreeable

00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.550
people... overall make less money in the same

00:43:25.550 --> 00:43:27.570
positions. And it's because they don't negotiate

00:43:27.570 --> 00:43:30.389
on their own behalf very well. Now, it's conceivable

00:43:30.389 --> 00:43:32.710
that you could have an intelligent public policy

00:43:32.710 --> 00:43:34.989
or corporate policy discussion about what to

00:43:34.989 --> 00:43:37.789
do about that. Like, maybe the rule is something

00:43:37.789 --> 00:43:41.889
like, you review male salaries once a year and

00:43:41.889 --> 00:43:44.429
female salaries every eight months, or something

00:43:44.429 --> 00:43:46.650
like that. And I'm not saying that's a good idea.

00:43:46.769 --> 00:43:49.210
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that... If you

00:43:49.210 --> 00:43:52.150
take the facts on the ground into account, there

00:43:52.150 --> 00:43:54.309
are ways that you might be able to use them so

00:43:54.309 --> 00:43:56.369
that you could, and I'm not going to say level

00:43:56.369 --> 00:43:58.090
the playing field because I think that's an appalling

00:43:58.090 --> 00:44:01.289
phrase, but maximize the possibility of economic

00:44:01.289 --> 00:44:03.789
contribution across the genders, which is obviously

00:44:03.789 --> 00:44:06.050
in everyone's best interest. But we're not going

00:44:06.050 --> 00:44:08.630
to do that. When someone like James Damore comes

00:44:08.630 --> 00:44:11.389
out, and he's no scientist. Well, he has some

00:44:11.389 --> 00:44:13.210
scientific training, but that wasn't his primary

00:44:13.210 --> 00:44:16.050
field of expertise. He came out and did a pretty

00:44:16.050 --> 00:44:18.440
credible job of summarizing the literature. He

00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:21.960
did it because he had been subject to mandatory

00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:24.639
diversity training and was asked to produce a

00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:26.880
response. He didn't do it so it would go viral

00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.219
within the company or become public. And because

00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:32.199
he expressed his opinion, let's say imperfectly.

00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.980
He got fired. It's like, that's not good, man.

00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.320
That's not a good pathway. Well, it also wasn't

00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:40.280
good that his stuff was being republished without

00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:44.119
citations, that people were publishing it without

00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.920
the scientific papers that were sort of affirming

00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.000
some of the things that he was saying. I couldn't

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.159
make heads or tails of it until I saw his original

00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:55.619
version. Yeah, well, that goes back to the point

00:44:55.619 --> 00:44:58.019
I was making earlier about this being, this is

00:44:58.019 --> 00:45:01.019
an unstable time where people's individual ethical

00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:03.949
choices. in some circumstances, will have effects

00:45:03.949 --> 00:45:07.110
far beyond the local. It's like those journalists

00:45:07.110 --> 00:45:11.610
who jumped on the story did it either badly,

00:45:11.809 --> 00:45:14.050
you know, because they were incompetent, or they

00:45:14.050 --> 00:45:18.650
did it maliciously. And so now we could say,

00:45:18.690 --> 00:45:21.250
let's say things go really badly in the next

00:45:21.250 --> 00:45:23.909
year. Well, then each of those journalists might

00:45:23.909 --> 00:45:26.269
be able to sit at home and say, hey, I played

00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:30.010
a causal role in bringing about this state of

00:45:30.010 --> 00:45:32.670
murderous collapse. Because of my little ethical,

00:45:32.710 --> 00:45:34.849
my ethical lapse when I was covering the James

00:45:34.849 --> 00:45:37.809
Damore memo, you know, because of my own laziness

00:45:37.809 --> 00:45:40.550
and ideological rigidity, I was willing to play

00:45:40.550 --> 00:45:42.730
fast and loose with the truth. And now I've played

00:45:42.730 --> 00:45:45.010
a major causal role in, you know, pushing everything

00:45:45.010 --> 00:45:47.150
towards a state of chaos. It's like people have

00:45:47.150 --> 00:45:49.710
better be on their toes because we're in a situation

00:45:49.710 --> 00:45:53.780
that's radically unstable. And so it's a really

00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:56.039
good time for everybody to be very careful about

00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.460
what they write and say and about their motives

00:45:58.460 --> 00:46:01.380
for tarring and feathering the opposition. That's

00:46:01.380 --> 00:46:03.880
another thing that we have to be very careful

00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:06.920
about. It's just very bizarre how quick people

00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:09.659
are to call someone a racist today. I mean, I've

00:46:09.659 --> 00:46:11.559
never seen anything like it in all my years.

00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:15.619
It's a strange time. You know, I got into it

00:46:15.619 --> 00:46:18.260
yesterday. I got bored and I started trolling

00:46:18.260 --> 00:46:20.619
with Pepe the Frog. I started putting up the

00:46:20.619 --> 00:46:22.949
frog like... with rainbows saying this seems

00:46:22.949 --> 00:46:25.610
like a frog that's really into gay rights. Like

00:46:25.610 --> 00:46:27.809
here's a frog that, uh, holding a lemon with

00:46:27.809 --> 00:46:30.750
a tart face. Like this is a frog that ate a lemon

00:46:30.750 --> 00:46:33.170
and he's reacting to it. Like, how is this all

00:46:33.170 --> 00:46:36.389
racist? Like, how is this like anyone? It's not

00:46:36.389 --> 00:46:37.650
like all these people that are creating this

00:46:37.650 --> 00:46:41.340
frog are coordinating. Anyone can make a meme

00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:43.500
with the frog. And like a lot of the original

00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:47.079
Feels Good Man cartoons that the guy created,

00:46:47.300 --> 00:46:50.400
those are applicable, too. They're silly. A lot

00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:51.860
of them are really silly. Well, I think a lot

00:46:51.860 --> 00:46:55.000
of it was an intentional troll. Yes. So I read

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:59.039
a story about Kekistan. I was looking into it,

00:46:59.059 --> 00:47:02.059
trying to figure out if it was really the menace

00:47:02.059 --> 00:47:04.730
to humanity that everybody... claims it is. And

00:47:04.730 --> 00:47:07.590
the story was preposterous. It was a, you know,

00:47:07.610 --> 00:47:11.889
it's a magical place where anti -Semites and

00:47:11.889 --> 00:47:15.210
Jews and atheists and religious people live in

00:47:15.210 --> 00:47:17.889
harmony, which is like, that's hard to even parse.

00:47:18.130 --> 00:47:21.829
It's designed to cause your mind to throw an

00:47:21.829 --> 00:47:25.070
error. Yeah. Well, and that is what, so I think

00:47:25.070 --> 00:47:26.909
this is an excellent thing to talk about because

00:47:26.909 --> 00:47:31.579
I've been, let's say, identified under many circumstances

00:47:31.579 --> 00:47:34.480
now with the alt -right. I've been doing every

00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:37.780
bit of investigation I can into its many manifestations.

00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:40.380
It's a very confusing place. It's certainly not

00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:43.300
an organized place. And exactly what it is is

00:47:43.300 --> 00:47:45.659
by no means obvious. And the Kekistan issue is

00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:48.860
a good case in point because mostly that's like

00:47:48.860 --> 00:47:55.019
a satirical realm where... I don't know what

00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:57.800
it is. It's defensive humor in some sense. Let

00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:00.019
me give you an example. I gave my father a Kekistani

00:48:00.019 --> 00:48:04.780
flag about three weeks ago. Why did you do that?

00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:06.940
Well, because he's been following what's happening

00:48:06.940 --> 00:48:10.159
to me online, you know, and I got associated

00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:13.639
with the frog in a major way. And it's a crazy

00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:15.579
story, and I won't go into it, but I wore a frog

00:48:15.579 --> 00:48:18.639
hat on one of my videos that an Indian carver,

00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:21.000
a Native American carver, had given me. And he

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.360
had told me that the frog was, in their culture,

00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:26.719
a harbinger of environmental instability, because

00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:28.719
if the water's polluted at all, the frogs die

00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:32.019
first. So the frog is the... The frog is the

00:48:32.019 --> 00:48:35.119
creature in their mythology that warns the society

00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:37.380
that things are out of kilter. It's the canary

00:48:37.380 --> 00:48:38.599
in the coal mine. It's the canary in the coal

00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:40.639
mine. So I wore this frog hat and I made this

00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:43.760
video about things being... unstable and I'd

00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:45.619
been identified with Kermit because my voice

00:48:45.619 --> 00:48:47.719
sort of sounds like Kermit the frog and it actually

00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:50.179
does so I've been making jokes about that and

00:48:50.179 --> 00:48:52.119
so then I made this video with this frog hat

00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:54.440
and the frog that my carver friend made actually

00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:57.380
had red lips and then I made the video and as

00:48:57.380 --> 00:48:59.599
soon as I posted it people said that's Pepe and

00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:01.420
I thought I just about fainted literally because

00:49:01.420 --> 00:49:03.519
it never occurred to me that that was a connection

00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:06.179
so anyways I've been tangled in with this frog

00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:09.019
thing in this most absolutely insane and surreal

00:49:09.019 --> 00:49:11.639
manner but I've been so and that got me into

00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:14.070
the Kekistani thing. And a lot of the people

00:49:14.070 --> 00:49:16.789
that I'm trying to address online are young men

00:49:16.789 --> 00:49:20.349
who are pushed, I would say. in a right -leaning

00:49:20.349 --> 00:49:23.250
direction by the movement of the radical left

00:49:23.250 --> 00:49:24.750
alienating. And then they're thinking, well,

00:49:24.789 --> 00:49:27.789
I'm certainly not that. Well, then what am I?

00:49:27.889 --> 00:49:29.829
Well, maybe I'm the opposite of that. Well, is

00:49:29.829 --> 00:49:31.969
the opposite of the radical left the alt -right?

00:49:32.130 --> 00:49:34.349
Or is there a better opposite? Is there a different

00:49:34.349 --> 00:49:36.590
opposite that people could flee to? And that's

00:49:36.590 --> 00:49:38.130
what, well, partly that's what I'm trying to

00:49:38.130 --> 00:49:40.230
figure out. But does it have to be opposite?

00:49:40.349 --> 00:49:42.389
Couldn't it just be different? Well, that's a

00:49:42.389 --> 00:49:45.130
good question. Opposition is a real issue with

00:49:45.130 --> 00:49:46.929
people, right? Like what you were talking about

00:49:46.929 --> 00:49:49.119
before, when people just ramp up their... positions

00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:51.280
and get more ideologically based and they're

00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:54.079
doing it as a reaction to the other side instead

00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:56.360
of just being who they are instead of having

00:49:56.360 --> 00:49:59.159
some sort of a personal sovereignty they're literally

00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:01.960
reacting to the opposite side and changing who

00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:04.039
they are so okay so what i've been trying to

00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:06.940
do with my videos and and and and i think this

00:50:06.940 --> 00:50:08.559
is part of the reason that they've become so

00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:11.320
popular in fact i'm certain of it is that i've

00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.320
been trying to agitate for the adoption of that

00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:16.639
personal responsibility as an alternative to

00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:19.489
political ideology it's like Get your act together.

00:50:20.190 --> 00:50:23.630
Have a vision. Straighten out your life. Say

00:50:23.630 --> 00:50:26.570
what you think. Stay away from the ideological

00:50:26.570 --> 00:50:30.110
idiocies and oversimplifications and try to put

00:50:30.110 --> 00:50:32.210
yourself together. Because I think that I do

00:50:32.210 --> 00:50:34.889
believe at the most fundamental level, and I

00:50:34.889 --> 00:50:38.469
think this is the remarkable realization of Western

00:50:38.469 --> 00:50:41.409
civilization, is that the well -developed individual

00:50:41.409 --> 00:50:44.429
is the antidote to the tyranny of society and

00:50:44.429 --> 00:50:47.739
biology. I think that's our great discovery in

00:50:47.739 --> 00:50:49.539
the West. It's not like other cultures haven't

00:50:49.539 --> 00:50:52.480
had that idea in nascent form, but it's been

00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:54.360
hyper -developed in the West, and I think it's

00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:59.300
right. And so we abandon that pathway of divine

00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:01.980
individuality and revert to ideological identification

00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:04.280
of race or sex. We're going to tear each other

00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:06.760
apart. And I think part of the reason we're motivated

00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:09.980
to do that, Joe, is because many people don't

00:51:09.980 --> 00:51:11.739
want to bear the responsibility of developing

00:51:11.739 --> 00:51:14.329
themselves as individuals. So they'll shuffle

00:51:14.329 --> 00:51:16.389
off the responsibility, and if that means that

00:51:16.389 --> 00:51:19.329
we're dancing in the streets because everything's

00:51:19.329 --> 00:51:22.010
on fire, that'll be just fine. And that's another

00:51:22.010 --> 00:51:23.849
thing that's adding to the terrible danger that

00:51:23.849 --> 00:51:26.679
we're in right now. So I think you're right.

00:51:26.739 --> 00:51:29.320
And I think that personal auditing program that

00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:32.199
you you're a part of is gigantic. And people

00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:34.639
look at it as being separate from all these issues

00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:36.659
that we're dealing with culturally. But I don't

00:51:36.659 --> 00:51:38.539
think it is. I think you're absolutely right.

00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:42.860
And I think that there is a real lack of struggle

00:51:42.860 --> 00:51:45.980
and understanding of struggle with a lot of people

00:51:45.980 --> 00:51:47.920
today. Not necessarily struggle financially,

00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:51.260
but I mean, like physical struggle, spiritual

00:51:51.260 --> 00:51:54.849
struggle, understanding that. you have to overcome

00:51:54.849 --> 00:51:59.230
difficult issues to really to understand the

00:51:59.230 --> 00:52:01.550
true potential of your mind and your body. You

00:52:01.550 --> 00:52:03.489
have to not only overcome them, but you have

00:52:03.489 --> 00:52:06.610
to seek them out voluntarily and, what would

00:52:06.610 --> 00:52:09.070
you say, exalt in the fact that they exist, right?

00:52:09.150 --> 00:52:11.150
Yes. And that's part of bearing the burden of

00:52:11.150 --> 00:52:14.030
being. It's like being is a tragic state. Human

00:52:14.030 --> 00:52:16.849
being is a tragic state. So you can shrink from

00:52:16.849 --> 00:52:18.650
that, but if you shrink from that, the suffering

00:52:18.650 --> 00:52:21.530
increases and intensifies, and you become resentful

00:52:21.530 --> 00:52:23.630
and malevolent. Yes. So the alternative is to

00:52:23.630 --> 00:52:25.869
move forward courageously. That's the dragon

00:52:25.869 --> 00:52:27.960
motif, right? That's the hero. myth, essentially.

00:52:28.219 --> 00:52:30.480
And that is the pathway forward as far as I'm

00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:32.599
concerned. Well, I think it also has implications.

00:52:33.139 --> 00:52:35.679
You're talking about it at the level of what

00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.139
is best for the individual. But we also have

00:52:38.139 --> 00:52:40.659
a problem, which is that these collectivist movements,

00:52:40.900 --> 00:52:44.440
whether they are white nationalists on the right

00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:48.039
or social justice warriors on the left, they

00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:51.760
cannot see forward. And what is missing is that

00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:54.380
actually the mechanism that allows us to discover

00:52:54.380 --> 00:52:58.900
new ways. involves individuals who are capable

00:52:58.900 --> 00:53:01.880
of thinking independently. And if you have multiple

00:53:01.880 --> 00:53:05.139
individuals who think independently about related

00:53:05.139 --> 00:53:08.099
matters, then they can pool that stuff. But if

00:53:08.099 --> 00:53:10.840
what we do is we force everybody to sign up for

00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:14.059
the same things that we all agree are true, there's

00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:16.239
no way of discovering what we don't yet know

00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:18.599
because every great idea starts with a minority

00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:22.380
of one. So we have to have the freedom to be

00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:24.179
the only person who believes something and then

00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:26.940
to compel others that it's somewhere in the right

00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:28.940
neighborhood and for others to pick up that mantle.

00:53:29.059 --> 00:53:31.760
And so by subordinating... That's exactly why,

00:53:31.900 --> 00:53:34.380
you know, I mean, free speech has become an ideological

00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:37.340
issue and increasingly identified with the right,

00:53:37.460 --> 00:53:40.699
which is horrible. It's horrifying. But the right

00:53:40.699 --> 00:53:42.860
justification for free speech is what you just

00:53:42.860 --> 00:53:46.659
laid out, which is that in order for... The collective

00:53:46.659 --> 00:53:50.119
is a group of what's already known by definition.

00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:52.139
We inhabit the collective and that's what's already

00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:54.119
known, what we can agree on. But the problem

00:53:54.119 --> 00:53:55.860
with that is that what we can agree on, what's

00:53:55.860 --> 00:53:58.780
already known, isn't sufficient. We still have

00:53:58.780 --> 00:54:01.480
problems. So people have to be out at the fringes,

00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:03.340
on the border between chaos and order, where

00:54:03.340 --> 00:54:05.460
they discover new things and communicate it back

00:54:05.460 --> 00:54:08.059
to the collective. And free speech does that.

00:54:08.139 --> 00:54:12.280
That's the mechanism. This is also a deep evolutionary

00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:15.309
truth. which is that all of the innovations that

00:54:15.309 --> 00:54:17.190
allow, whether we're talking about one creature

00:54:17.190 --> 00:54:19.590
learning to do some new trick that gives rise

00:54:19.590 --> 00:54:21.869
to a bunch of species that do the same trick,

00:54:21.969 --> 00:54:24.809
or whether we're talking about populations discovering

00:54:24.809 --> 00:54:29.449
a new way to live on Earth, all of these things

00:54:29.449 --> 00:54:33.179
proceed from the fringe. The people at the center

00:54:33.179 --> 00:54:35.380
for whom things are working best aren't going

00:54:35.380 --> 00:54:37.380
to be the ones to innovate the new way. It's

00:54:37.380 --> 00:54:39.139
people for whom things are not quite working

00:54:39.139 --> 00:54:42.139
that are going to innovate new ways. And that's

00:54:42.139 --> 00:54:44.460
also true for a population of frogs or birds

00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:46.719
or plants or whatever. The ones that are not

00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.079
well -situated are the ones where an experiment

00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:52.400
can pay off. That's why Hans Eysenke, a psychologist,

00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:55.019
wrote a good book called Genius, and he was interested

00:54:55.019 --> 00:54:57.420
in what predicted high levels of creative success.

00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:00.400
And some of it's what you'd expect. IQ is one

00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:02.340
of them, and creative temperament is another.

00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:05.039
But losing a parent before the age of 10 was

00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.360
a nice predictor. And, you know, people think

00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:09.420
about creativity as if it's all sweetness and

00:55:09.420 --> 00:55:11.840
light. It's like, no bloody way, man. If you're

00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:13.820
going to be creative, it's because you're tormented

00:55:13.820 --> 00:55:16.449
by a problem. And so if you're not in a position

00:55:16.449 --> 00:55:17.949
to be tormented by a problem, you're not going

00:55:17.949 --> 00:55:19.969
to put in the time and effort and take the risk

00:55:19.969 --> 00:55:24.570
necessary to be creative. But, you know, I've

00:55:24.570 --> 00:55:27.030
been trying to understand the evolutionary landscape

00:55:27.030 --> 00:55:30.190
out of which our most fundamental religious convictions

00:55:30.190 --> 00:55:33.289
emerge and the idea that it is by definition

00:55:33.289 --> 00:55:36.349
the individual that innovates and that by definition,

00:55:36.349 --> 00:55:38.650
therefore, it's the individual that's the savior

00:55:38.650 --> 00:55:42.050
of the collective. I mean, it's hard to imagine

00:55:42.050 --> 00:55:45.190
how you could find a biological restatement of

00:55:45.190 --> 00:55:47.389
an essential Christian presupposition that was

00:55:47.389 --> 00:55:49.829
more mapped one -to -one than that. Now, you

00:55:49.829 --> 00:55:51.449
could say, well, that's not unique to Christianity.

00:55:51.610 --> 00:55:56.190
I see the same thing in the Jewish antithesis

00:55:56.190 --> 00:55:58.389
between the prophetic tradition, the prophet,

00:55:58.510 --> 00:56:00.570
and the tradition. Because the prophet is always

00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:03.719
the... lone voice, right, that comes out. It

00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:05.500
happens over and over in the Old Testament. A

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:07.320
lone voice comes out and challenges the king

00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:10.260
and says, look, you know, you're a blind tyrant

00:56:10.260 --> 00:56:13.199
and nature is moving away from us and preparing

00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:15.119
her revenge and you better watch the hell out

00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:17.159
because you're violating the intrinsic moral

00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:19.039
norms and you're going to pay for it. That happens

00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.900
over and over. And maybe there are 50 of them

00:56:21.900 --> 00:56:23.840
and the one that gets recorded is the one that

00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:25.780
happened to be closest to right because that's

00:56:25.780 --> 00:56:27.780
the population that gets through the bottleneck.

00:56:27.820 --> 00:56:32.739
And so, you know, what we have is sort of authoring

00:56:32.739 --> 00:56:37.619
these texts, in a way. Yes, well, that's a claim

00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:41.880
that I'm very, what would you call... And that's

00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:43.679
something I believe to be fundamentally true.

00:56:43.900 --> 00:56:46.760
And I mean, I've started... See, because I'm

00:56:46.760 --> 00:56:48.500
interested in this idea of strengthening the

00:56:48.500 --> 00:56:52.099
individual. When I wrote my first book, Maps

00:56:52.099 --> 00:56:54.039
of Meaning, it was about ideological conflict.

00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:56.840
And it was about whether or not there was any

00:56:56.840 --> 00:56:58.739
alternative to ideological conflict. Because

00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:00.340
you could make a case that there isn't. There's

00:57:00.340 --> 00:57:02.360
right and there's left and there's a war, right?

00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:04.599
But there is a third way. And I think that is

00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:06.559
the way of the heroic individual. And I mean

00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:11.070
that technically. And that involves... the development

00:57:11.070 --> 00:57:13.329
of individual characters, so that you can say

00:57:13.329 --> 00:57:15.690
what it is that you think, that you can articulate

00:57:15.690 --> 00:57:18.010
your experience properly, and that you can bring

00:57:18.010 --> 00:57:20.829
what it is that's unique to you into the collective

00:57:20.829 --> 00:57:23.130
landscape. And that's what updates the collective

00:57:23.130 --> 00:57:26.909
landscape. It's absolutely vital. And so I started

00:57:26.909 --> 00:57:29.010
doing these biblical lectures. I have done 12

00:57:29.010 --> 00:57:30.909
of them now, walking through Genesis, and what

00:57:30.909 --> 00:57:32.829
I'm trying to do, because I believe that the

00:57:32.829 --> 00:57:35.289
Bible is the documentation of the emergence of

00:57:35.289 --> 00:57:37.369
the idea of the divine individual. That's essentially

00:57:37.369 --> 00:57:41.320
what it is. We have a very uneasy relationship

00:57:41.320 --> 00:57:44.619
with that collection of texts now because we

00:57:44.619 --> 00:57:47.239
read them as if they're making claims about the

00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:49.139
objective nature of the world, and those claims

00:57:49.139 --> 00:57:51.440
seem to be false from a scientific perspective.

00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:53.420
I don't believe that those are the claims that

00:57:53.420 --> 00:57:55.099
were made to begin with, so I think it's a non

00:57:55.099 --> 00:57:57.440
-starter. But I've been trying to lecture about

00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:00.179
the stories in Genesis, for example, in a manner

00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:02.400
that makes them accessible to people who are...

00:58:02.780 --> 00:58:05.659
well, to atheists, let's say, and many, many

00:58:05.659 --> 00:58:07.539
atheists have been responding very positively

00:58:07.539 --> 00:58:09.619
to them. I have people in my YouTube comments

00:58:09.619 --> 00:58:11.980
now that are calling themselves Christian atheists,

00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:14.480
because they can understand, they understand

00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:18.659
what it is, I'm describing this idea that's emerged

00:58:18.659 --> 00:58:22.159
in the West, that consciousness is the mediator

00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:25.260
between chaos and order, and the generating,

00:58:25.659 --> 00:58:28.900
the phenomena that generates experience, and

00:58:28.900 --> 00:58:31.030
that... And that you can think about that as

00:58:31.030 --> 00:58:35.929
a divine category of existence. And I've been

00:58:35.929 --> 00:58:40.369
trying to delineate how the biblical stories

00:58:40.369 --> 00:58:44.289
lay out the pathway by which the divine individual

00:58:44.289 --> 00:58:47.130
should manifest him or herself in time. Because

00:58:47.130 --> 00:58:52.500
that is what it is. I've been studying, for example,

00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:54.659
the Abrahamic stories, which I didn't know well.

00:58:55.079 --> 00:58:57.239
And the Abrahamic stories are really interesting.

00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:00.559
I mean, Abraham is called by God. And when Abraham

00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:02.739
is called by God, he's old. He's like one of

00:59:02.739 --> 00:59:04.800
these guys who's 40 years old and has stayed

00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:07.960
in his mother's basement. That's Abraham. It's

00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:09.659
a little late for Abraham to be getting the hell

00:59:09.659 --> 00:59:11.320
out there in the world. And God basically says

00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:13.619
to him, leave your family and your friends and

00:59:13.619 --> 00:59:15.639
your place of comfort and journey into the land

00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:17.440
of the stranger. That's the call to adventure.

00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:19.860
And so Abraham does that. Now he's chosen by

00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:21.539
God. You think, well, everything goes well for

00:59:21.539 --> 00:59:23.500
Abraham. That isn't what happens at all. The

00:59:23.500 --> 00:59:25.800
first thing he encounters is a famine. And to

00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:28.199
escape that, he flees into the tyranny of Egypt

00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:30.519
where they try to steal his wife. It's like,

00:59:30.539 --> 00:59:33.320
beware of being called by God. You know, you'd

00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:35.440
think it'd be all sweetness and light after that.

00:59:35.500 --> 00:59:37.159
It's not that at all. And it's a very realistic

00:59:37.159 --> 00:59:39.119
story. It's like, get the hell out of where you're

00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:41.940
safe. Into what you don't know. What are you

00:59:41.940 --> 00:59:44.019
going to find there? Well, your fortune. No,

00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:46.179
you're going to find the catastrophes of life.

00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:49.579
But if you keep yourself morally oriented and

00:59:49.579 --> 00:59:52.260
you make the right sacrifices, which is the Abrahamic

00:59:52.260 --> 00:59:56.420
story to a T, then you can transcend the catastrophe

00:59:56.420 --> 01:00:00.599
of being and prevail. I mean, it's... Who the

01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:04.420
hell doesn't want to hear that? So we're treading

01:00:04.420 --> 01:00:08.360
kind of close to the argument you got into with

01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:11.380
Sam Harris about the nature of truth. And since

01:00:11.380 --> 01:00:14.670
I heard... that I've been sort of itching to

01:00:14.670 --> 01:00:17.050
have this conversation with you because I think

01:00:17.050 --> 01:00:20.389
there's a way of viewing this that will actually

01:00:20.389 --> 01:00:24.849
perhaps reconcile the two points of view, but

01:00:24.849 --> 01:00:26.670
there's a bitter pill that comes along with it.

01:00:27.150 --> 01:00:34.710
So here's my argument. We tend to think of intellect

01:00:34.710 --> 01:00:39.099
as having evolved. because knowing what's true

01:00:39.099 --> 01:00:41.179
gives you an advantage. But there's actually

01:00:41.179 --> 01:00:43.780
nothing that says that the literal truth is where

01:00:43.780 --> 01:00:47.159
advantage lies. And so I have a category that

01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:49.500
I call literally false, metaphorically true.

01:00:50.139 --> 01:00:52.900
These are ideas that aren't true in the factual

01:00:52.900 --> 01:00:56.300
sense, but they are true enough that if you behave

01:00:56.300 --> 01:00:58.019
as if they were true, you come out ahead of where

01:00:58.019 --> 01:01:00.739
you would be if you behaved according to the

01:01:00.739 --> 01:01:02.300
fact that they're not true. So let me give you

01:01:02.300 --> 01:01:05.280
a couple of trivial examples that won't be controversial.

01:01:07.179 --> 01:01:10.599
Porcupines can throw their quills. Not true.

01:01:11.260 --> 01:01:14.420
However, if you live near porcupines and you

01:01:14.420 --> 01:01:17.340
imagine that porcupines can throw their quills,

01:01:17.380 --> 01:01:20.960
you'll give them some space. If you don't, you

01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:22.880
may realize that they can't throw their quills,

01:01:22.900 --> 01:01:24.659
get really close to one, and it may wheel around

01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:27.019
and nail you with a porcupine quill, which can

01:01:27.019 --> 01:01:29.599
be extremely dangerous because they are... They're

01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:31.840
microscopically designed to move in from where

01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:34.079
they puncture you over time and they can puncture

01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:36.639
a vital organ or you can get an infection. So

01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:38.800
the person who believes that a porcupine can

01:01:38.800 --> 01:01:41.159
throw their quills has an advantage that isn't

01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:42.800
predicated on the fact that this is actually

01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:46.840
a literal truth, right? Another one might be

01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:50.860
people say everything happens for a reason, right?

01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:53.099
Well, unless you're talking about physics as

01:01:53.099 --> 01:01:55.760
the reason, everything doesn't happen for a reason.

01:01:56.840 --> 01:01:58.920
If you are the kind of person who believes that

01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:01.820
everything happens for a reason and then some

01:02:01.820 --> 01:02:04.619
terrible tragedy befalls you, you may be on the

01:02:04.619 --> 01:02:06.340
lookout. Well, what's the reason that this happened?

01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:08.119
Maybe it's supposed to open some opportunity.

01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:10.079
And you won't miss that opportunity the way somebody

01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:12.920
who was preoccupied with their misfortune would.

01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:18.300
So literal falseness but metaphorical truth is

01:02:18.300 --> 01:02:21.480
actually, I would argue, the category under which

01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:26.289
religious truth evolves. Now the problem, the

01:02:26.289 --> 01:02:29.550
bitter pill that I mentioned, is that I've heard

01:02:29.550 --> 01:02:31.909
you say that the truths that are captured in

01:02:31.909 --> 01:02:36.250
the religious version of things are basically

01:02:36.250 --> 01:02:40.269
like, you know, there's an individual truth and

01:02:40.269 --> 01:02:42.010
then there's a truth of your family and there's

01:02:42.010 --> 01:02:43.849
a truth of the population that you're living

01:02:43.849 --> 01:02:45.570
in and these things are all encoded in these

01:02:45.570 --> 01:02:48.309
doctrines, which is true. And you would expect

01:02:48.309 --> 01:02:50.170
it to be because the doctrines are carried along

01:02:50.170 --> 01:02:54.690
in the population. The problem is... What I hear

01:02:54.690 --> 01:02:57.250
you arguing, and you tell me if I have it wrong,

01:02:57.409 --> 01:03:02.250
is that we should therefore expect the encoded

01:03:02.250 --> 01:03:04.670
metaphorical truths in these religious traditions

01:03:04.670 --> 01:03:10.329
to be morally right. But there's nothing that

01:03:10.329 --> 01:03:12.230
actually says it will be morally right, because

01:03:12.230 --> 01:03:14.889
there are metaphorical truths that might in fact

01:03:14.889 --> 01:03:17.449
be reprehensible, but nonetheless effective.

01:03:20.619 --> 01:03:23.179
What I would argue, the overarching point here

01:03:23.179 --> 01:03:27.000
would be that you're right, that the documents

01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:29.440
that contain these descriptions of things are

01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:32.119
full of things that are true in some sense that

01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:34.380
is not literal scientific truth, nor was that

01:03:34.380 --> 01:03:39.139
their purpose. What isn't true is that those

01:03:39.139 --> 01:03:43.699
things are inherently up to date. See, I would,

01:03:43.780 --> 01:03:46.579
okay, I mean, first of all, the first thing about

01:03:46.579 --> 01:03:49.570
that is that a discussion like that, and this

01:03:49.570 --> 01:03:51.150
is also what happened with Sam Harris, takes

01:03:51.150 --> 01:03:53.389
me to the very limits of my intellectual ability.

01:03:53.690 --> 01:03:55.969
And so even in discussing it, I'm going to make

01:03:55.969 --> 01:03:59.369
all sorts of mistakes because it's treacherous

01:03:59.369 --> 01:04:03.489
territory. But I would say my understanding of

01:04:03.489 --> 01:04:07.090
the great myths has that observation built into

01:04:07.090 --> 01:04:11.050
it. So one of the archetypes is that of the tyrannical

01:04:11.050 --> 01:04:13.210
father, which is the archetype, by the way, that

01:04:13.210 --> 01:04:15.909
possesses the minds of people who accuse Western

01:04:15.909 --> 01:04:18.090
society of being patriarchal. They're possessed

01:04:18.090 --> 01:04:20.289
by a singular archetype, and that's the archetype

01:04:20.289 --> 01:04:22.349
of the tyrannical father. They don't see that

01:04:22.349 --> 01:04:24.230
there's a tyrannical father and a wise king,

01:04:24.409 --> 01:04:28.369
because there is. You can't even point that out.

01:04:28.570 --> 01:04:34.789
But anyways, in some of our oldest stories, there's

01:04:34.789 --> 01:04:38.610
a representation of the dead past. So let me

01:04:38.610 --> 01:04:40.849
give you an example that everyone knows about.

01:04:42.090 --> 01:04:45.070
The story of Pinocchio is the story of the individualization

01:04:45.070 --> 01:04:46.989
of Pinocchio. He starts out as a puppet. He's

01:04:46.989 --> 01:04:49.530
a marionette. He's a wooden head. He's a liar.

01:04:49.670 --> 01:04:53.050
And he's pulled by forces that he does not understand.

01:04:53.690 --> 01:04:55.630
Right, okay, so... But he has a good father.

01:04:55.750 --> 01:04:58.170
That's Geppetto. And so he's got a good... And

01:04:58.170 --> 01:05:00.369
Geppetto wishes that he becomes a real individual.

01:05:01.150 --> 01:05:03.590
And he knows that that's an impossible wish.

01:05:03.650 --> 01:05:05.710
He wishes on a star that his son could become

01:05:05.710 --> 01:05:07.449
an actual individual, knowing full well that

01:05:07.449 --> 01:05:09.309
that's unlikely and impossible. So Geppetto's

01:05:09.309 --> 01:05:12.309
a good king. But the story's also about Geppetto,

01:05:12.449 --> 01:05:14.949
because what happens is that when Geppetto loses

01:05:14.949 --> 01:05:17.389
Pinocchio, loses his son, which you could think

01:05:17.389 --> 01:05:19.829
about as the active, dynamic, attentive force

01:05:19.829 --> 01:05:23.070
of youth, then he ends up stultified in the belly

01:05:23.070 --> 01:05:25.250
of a whale, which is a symbol of chaos, at the

01:05:25.250 --> 01:05:26.929
bottom of the ocean, and then Pinocchio has to

01:05:26.929 --> 01:05:30.730
rescue him. So I would say... There is an instantiation

01:05:30.730 --> 01:05:34.369
of evolutionarily accumulated wisdom in the great

01:05:34.369 --> 01:05:37.050
stories of the past, but they're still dead.

01:05:37.750 --> 01:05:40.969
And it requires the union. This is why in Christian

01:05:40.969 --> 01:05:45.449
theology, the Godhead has tripartite structure.

01:05:45.610 --> 01:05:47.369
This is part of the reason. There's God the Father,

01:05:47.550 --> 01:05:50.590
but the Father's dead. The father was right a

01:05:50.590 --> 01:05:52.329
hundred years ago, or a thousand years ago, and

01:05:52.329 --> 01:05:54.369
is still partly right, but he's dead. He can't

01:05:54.369 --> 01:05:56.909
participate in the updating of the process, so

01:05:56.909 --> 01:05:59.670
you need an active force. Now, the active force

01:05:59.670 --> 01:06:01.929
is the same thing that generated those stories

01:06:01.929 --> 01:06:05.900
across time. So it's the same thing, except it's

01:06:05.900 --> 01:06:08.219
also alive in the present. And so your moral

01:06:08.219 --> 01:06:10.139
duty, and this is another thing that happens

01:06:10.139 --> 01:06:12.659
in Pinocchio, is to rescue your dead father from

01:06:12.659 --> 01:06:14.739
the belly of the whale. And that's partly what

01:06:14.739 --> 01:06:16.280
I'm trying to do with these biblical lectures,

01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:19.460
because your objection is correct. The reason

01:06:19.460 --> 01:06:22.360
it's correct is because even if the solution

01:06:22.360 --> 01:06:25.880
was correct, the landscape has changed. And it's

01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:28.099
changed incrementally, or in a revolutionary

01:06:28.099 --> 01:06:31.280
way, we don't know. And so those old truths are...

01:06:31.679 --> 01:06:34.980
At best, partial, and at worst, blind. But that

01:06:34.980 --> 01:06:37.159
doesn't mean you can just say, like Mao did during

01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:39.480
the Cultural Revolution, well, let's just destroy

01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:42.219
the past. It's like, no, that would be like saying,

01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:43.980
well, you don't need a body anymore, because

01:06:43.980 --> 01:06:46.400
your body is the collected wisdom of the evolutionary

01:06:46.400 --> 01:06:48.780
process across three and a half billion years.

01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:51.300
I absolutely agree. Because the stories are not

01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:53.599
literal, it's impossible to know whether they,

01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:55.960
well, not impossible, but very difficult to know

01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.559
whether or not the truth that is contained metaphorically

01:06:58.559 --> 01:07:00.599
is still relevant, if it's been inverted and

01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:04.440
it's now. Absolutely false. So Carl Jung talked

01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:07.260
about this a lot. And one of the things he said

01:07:07.260 --> 01:07:10.139
was that your moral duty is to realize the archetype

01:07:10.139 --> 01:07:13.000
in the confines of your own life. And so you

01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:15.300
say, well, there's an archetype of perfection

01:07:15.300 --> 01:07:18.800
that pervades the West. And for the sake of argument,

01:07:18.920 --> 01:07:20.960
I'm going to call that Christ, the Christ image.

01:07:21.019 --> 01:07:22.980
It's something like that. That's the archetypal

01:07:22.980 --> 01:07:25.900
image. Now, we have a story about what Christ's

01:07:25.900 --> 01:07:30.190
historical life was like. Well, you can't have

01:07:30.190 --> 01:07:33.289
that life, because you would have had to be in

01:07:33.289 --> 01:07:35.349
the Middle East 2 ,000 years ago. That's not

01:07:35.349 --> 01:07:38.469
your life. But what you can do is take the archetype,

01:07:38.469 --> 01:07:41.269
and you can manifest it within the confines of

01:07:41.269 --> 01:07:44.449
your own life. And what that does is force you

01:07:44.449 --> 01:07:46.449
to undergo the difficult process of updating

01:07:46.449 --> 01:07:49.469
the ancient wisdom. And you don't just forego

01:07:49.469 --> 01:07:52.030
it. You can't, or you can, but you'll pay a massive

01:07:52.030 --> 01:07:54.329
price. And part of that will be social disintegration,

01:07:54.329 --> 01:07:59.000
because it's... The past is alive enough so that

01:07:59.000 --> 01:08:02.199
those of us who inhabit its corpse aren't clawing

01:08:02.199 --> 01:08:04.559
each other to death while we're feeding, right?

01:08:04.760 --> 01:08:07.099
That's the critical issue. Now, it's not alive

01:08:07.099 --> 01:08:08.840
enough because the bloody thing could fall apart

01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:10.900
at any moment, and we need to be awake and alert

01:08:10.900 --> 01:08:13.440
in order to keep it updated and maintained. Well,

01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:17.109
not only that, but... the greatest hazards to

01:08:17.109 --> 01:08:19.689
us in the present are only partially going to

01:08:19.689 --> 01:08:22.329
be dealt with in these texts. And that's my biggest

01:08:22.329 --> 01:08:25.789
concern is that, you know, if we take, you know,

01:08:25.810 --> 01:08:29.050
Dawkins dismissing religion as mind virus, this

01:08:29.050 --> 01:08:31.989
is very dangerous because it neglects the truth

01:08:31.989 --> 01:08:34.069
that you're talking about. And it prevents us

01:08:34.069 --> 01:08:36.029
from getting to a conversation in which we can

01:08:36.029 --> 01:08:40.069
talk about the fact that religious texts, religions

01:08:40.069 --> 01:08:43.680
are not. Mind viruses, they are adaptations to

01:08:43.680 --> 01:08:46.100
past environments. They do contain a kind of

01:08:46.100 --> 01:08:48.260
truth that isn't necessarily literal and is in

01:08:48.260 --> 01:08:53.279
general not literal. But none of them, no ancient

01:08:53.279 --> 01:08:56.859
religion is up to date for Google's algorithms

01:08:56.859 --> 01:09:00.079
being the hazard to civilization that it probably

01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:03.460
is. We need to figure out how to navigate where

01:09:03.460 --> 01:09:06.279
the ancestral wisdom is simply not up to the

01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:08.680
current challenges. Okay, so let me modify that

01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:11.520
slightly. Because I think it's true and not true.

01:09:11.699 --> 01:09:15.680
The stories are erroneous in detail and right

01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:18.979
in pattern. So, for example, there's an idea

01:09:18.979 --> 01:09:20.659
that one of the things that the mythological

01:09:20.659 --> 01:09:22.899
hero does is stand up against the tyranny of

01:09:22.899 --> 01:09:25.579
the state. Now, you don't have to specify the

01:09:25.579 --> 01:09:28.239
nature of the tyranny of the state in order for

01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:30.720
that to be a truth that's applicable across different

01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:33.539
contexts. And I would say what's happened with

01:09:33.539 --> 01:09:35.979
the great religious myths is that they operate

01:09:35.979 --> 01:09:40.149
at a level of abstraction. such that the abstract

01:09:40.149 --> 01:09:42.569
entities are applicable in every single environment.

01:09:42.810 --> 01:09:45.869
I'll give you an example of that. It is extremely

01:09:45.869 --> 01:09:50.090
useful to represent the phenomenology of your

01:09:50.090 --> 01:09:53.829
experience as a domain of chaos and order. That

01:09:53.829 --> 01:09:56.350
works in every single environment for every person.

01:09:56.430 --> 01:09:59.130
And so the domain of order, I can describe it

01:09:59.130 --> 01:10:00.909
technically. You're in the domain of order when

01:10:00.909 --> 01:10:05.029
your actions produce the result you desire. And

01:10:05.029 --> 01:10:06.850
you're in the domain of chaos when they don't.

01:10:08.159 --> 01:10:11.399
And then I could say, well, your task is to straddle

01:10:11.399 --> 01:10:13.100
the border between those two domains because

01:10:13.100 --> 01:10:14.739
you don't always want to be where everything

01:10:14.739 --> 01:10:16.420
that you're doing is working because you don't

01:10:16.420 --> 01:10:18.659
learn anything. And you don't want to be where

01:10:18.659 --> 01:10:20.319
nothing you're doing is working because it's

01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:23.399
overwhelming. You want to be stable and dynamic

01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:26.020
at the same point. And the Taoists do that very

01:10:26.020 --> 01:10:28.659
nicely because they have a chaos order conceptualization

01:10:28.659 --> 01:10:31.260
of the phenomenological landscape. And their

01:10:31.260 --> 01:10:35.489
claim is... The point of maximum proper being

01:10:35.489 --> 01:10:37.350
is right at the center of the border between

01:10:37.350 --> 01:10:39.630
chaos and order. And I think that's true across

01:10:39.630 --> 01:10:44.310
contexts. So I don't think that truth ages. Some

01:10:44.310 --> 01:10:46.710
of them don't. But the question really is one

01:10:46.710 --> 01:10:50.029
of, at what point is there so much legacy code

01:10:50.029 --> 01:10:57.689
that taking the package is more harmful than

01:10:57.689 --> 01:10:59.909
it is beneficial? And at what point are, you

01:10:59.909 --> 01:11:02.340
know... If God were writing today, I'm pretty

01:11:02.340 --> 01:11:04.960
convinced the first commandment would be, thou

01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:07.840
shalt not enrich uranium. It would make sense

01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:09.899
as the number one commandment. It's not there

01:11:09.899 --> 01:11:13.460
because uranium wasn't a concept at the point

01:11:13.460 --> 01:11:14.939
that the thing was written, nor was the hazard

01:11:14.939 --> 01:11:18.699
of enriching it obvious. And so the fact that

01:11:18.699 --> 01:11:21.819
it isn't mentioned tends to de -emphasize it

01:11:21.819 --> 01:11:25.340
as a risk. And so I guess the question is, is

01:11:25.340 --> 01:11:29.119
it possible, I mean... Is it possible that by

01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:33.819
recognizing that these traditions carry huge

01:11:33.819 --> 01:11:37.020
amounts of ancestral wisdom forward, but that

01:11:37.020 --> 01:11:40.880
that wisdom is certain to be so incomplete that

01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:44.800
it doesn't address modern questions, that we

01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:48.640
can be liberated to move forward and to honor

01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:51.000
those traditions for bringing us here, but to

01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:53.140
recognize that we actually have to move forward

01:11:53.140 --> 01:11:55.539
with something more potent and up -to -date,

01:11:55.579 --> 01:11:57.859
which is not... Not easy, because you can't just

01:11:57.859 --> 01:12:01.979
take the scientific truth of the moment and implement

01:12:01.979 --> 01:12:04.720
it. A lot of it isn't even right. Yeah, it's

01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:07.619
also not that easy to rewrite a fairy tale. Some

01:12:07.619 --> 01:12:09.880
of these fairy tales that people are trying to

01:12:09.880 --> 01:12:12.500
rewrite in modern times are perhaps 15 ,000 years

01:12:12.500 --> 01:12:14.380
old, and people think, well, we can just update

01:12:14.380 --> 01:12:16.699
that so that the modern version will be better.

01:12:16.779 --> 01:12:18.380
It turns out that that's very, very difficult.

01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:20.439
And there's another. I'm going to play devil's

01:12:20.439 --> 01:12:22.920
advocate against my own position here, because

01:12:22.920 --> 01:12:25.960
I say, well, the religious texts encode. profound

01:12:25.960 --> 01:12:28.180
and evolutionarily determined truths that are

01:12:28.180 --> 01:12:32.060
universal. Okay, which religious texts? Right,

01:12:32.119 --> 01:12:34.039
they contradict each other. And you might say,

01:12:34.100 --> 01:12:37.680
well, all of them, but then that obscures the

01:12:37.680 --> 01:12:39.720
important differences between the traditions,

01:12:39.800 --> 01:12:42.159
and I'm by no means certain that all of them

01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:45.760
do. So I'm going to stick my neck way the hell

01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:48.319
out, because why not? It isn't obvious to me

01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:51.340
that Islam does. Because it's very difficult

01:12:51.340 --> 01:12:54.579
for me to see that the totalizing nature of Islam

01:12:54.579 --> 01:12:58.399
doesn't make it unique among religions. So now,

01:12:58.460 --> 01:13:00.359
good. So, well, there's that out on the table.

01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:03.420
If you don't mind, but isn't the issue using

01:13:03.420 --> 01:13:06.380
the word truth? Because we can use tradition

01:13:06.380 --> 01:13:08.880
and wisdom, and we're okay. But as soon as we

01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:11.520
start saying truth, then we run into problems.

01:13:11.859 --> 01:13:14.359
I mean, and even when you're talking about porcupines,

01:13:14.359 --> 01:13:17.729
when you're talking about... Would you say metaphorical

01:13:17.729 --> 01:13:20.090
truth versus... Look, it's not true. It's real

01:13:20.090 --> 01:13:22.130
simple. Just don't go near the porcupine. Teach

01:13:22.130 --> 01:13:24.289
the kid to not go near the porcupine because

01:13:24.289 --> 01:13:26.689
porcupine quills are dangerous. They get stuck

01:13:26.689 --> 01:13:28.590
in you. They're really dangerous. Can they throw

01:13:28.590 --> 01:13:31.010
it at you? No, they cannot. But just stay clear

01:13:31.010 --> 01:13:33.069
of them because you don't want them to somehow

01:13:33.069 --> 01:13:34.789
or another get in touch with your body. There's

01:13:34.789 --> 01:13:37.970
no truth in that they can throw their quills

01:13:37.970 --> 01:13:40.990
at you. You benefit from being... particularly

01:13:40.990 --> 01:13:44.109
aware of the dangers of their quills. But if

01:13:44.109 --> 01:13:47.289
you tell a kid that they can throw their quills

01:13:47.289 --> 01:13:49.390
and so therefore the kid stays clear of them,

01:13:49.510 --> 01:13:52.090
he has a faulty assumption in his head. You're

01:13:52.090 --> 01:13:54.710
lying to them for their own protection. That's

01:13:54.710 --> 01:13:56.810
not good. I wouldn't do it. And I think the same

01:13:56.810 --> 01:13:59.090
thing can be said of everything happens for a

01:13:59.090 --> 01:14:01.170
reason. Well, here's the problem. We don't know

01:14:01.170 --> 01:14:03.189
if everything happens for a reason. Maybe when

01:14:03.189 --> 01:14:06.029
you die, you go to some auditing room and they

01:14:06.029 --> 01:14:08.090
go, well, you know, it's all just a part of some

01:14:08.090 --> 01:14:11.090
gigantic algorithm that you're... It's impossible

01:14:11.090 --> 01:14:13.550
for you to understand due to your limited processing

01:14:13.550 --> 01:14:16.170
power of the human brain. You're dealing with

01:14:16.170 --> 01:14:20.930
some simian sort of complex geometry that's really

01:14:20.930 --> 01:14:22.750
just designed to keep your body moving and keep

01:14:22.750 --> 01:14:24.430
you alive and spread your genetics so that you

01:14:24.430 --> 01:14:26.090
can eventually evolve to the point when you're

01:14:26.090 --> 01:14:30.390
a god. Well, first of all, I have kids. I wouldn't

01:14:30.390 --> 01:14:31.569
tell them that a porcupine is a girl. I'm sure

01:14:31.569 --> 01:14:34.069
you wouldn't, but why use the word truth, though?

01:14:34.170 --> 01:14:37.550
Well, the question is, why do people? tell you

01:14:37.550 --> 01:14:39.369
that a porcupine can throw its quills. I don't

01:14:39.369 --> 01:14:41.470
think they do. Oh, they do. Well, if they do,

01:14:41.550 --> 01:14:43.289
they don't know any better. Right. Or they're

01:14:43.289 --> 01:14:46.130
liars. Right. And so all I'm saying is that actually

01:14:46.130 --> 01:14:49.529
that is likely to be the product of selection.

01:14:49.810 --> 01:14:52.489
In other words, that those people who had encoded

01:14:52.489 --> 01:14:55.489
that they do throw their quills have an advantage.

01:14:56.170 --> 01:14:58.109
It's not the way I would do it. And for exactly

01:14:58.109 --> 01:15:00.369
the reason that you point out, which is if you

01:15:00.369 --> 01:15:03.210
give a child the wrong model of a porcupine.

01:15:03.740 --> 01:15:06.140
I don't know whether a porcupine is liable to

01:15:06.140 --> 01:15:08.300
be the gateway to some more important question,

01:15:08.500 --> 01:15:12.159
but if it were, you've just steered the kid wrong.

01:15:12.359 --> 01:15:14.020
Well, it's something, here's part of the problem,

01:15:14.100 --> 01:15:16.079
and this is part of... And this is a really big

01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:18.319
problem. There's two things, I guess, that were

01:15:18.319 --> 01:15:20.000
brought up by what you described. And the first

01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:23.239
is the terminology of truth. Now, Harris's claim

01:15:23.239 --> 01:15:25.619
with regards to my utilization of truth was that

01:15:25.619 --> 01:15:28.319
I was absconding with the definition of truth

01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:30.859
and in false manner. But he was wrong, because

01:15:30.859 --> 01:15:33.000
the idea of truth is much older than the idea

01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:36.180
of objective truth. And the original notion of

01:15:36.180 --> 01:15:38.680
truth wasn't objective true. It was like the

01:15:38.680 --> 01:15:42.500
arrow flies straight and true. And it meant something

01:15:42.500 --> 01:15:46.220
like reliably on its way to the appropriate destination,

01:15:46.600 --> 01:15:49.039
something like that. And when Christ said, I

01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:54.140
am the truth and the way, the truth he was talking

01:15:54.140 --> 01:15:56.399
about wasn't an objective truth. So Sam's idea

01:15:56.399 --> 01:16:00.659
that I had somehow taken the idea of truth that

01:16:00.659 --> 01:16:02.939
was actually objective all along and done something

01:16:02.939 --> 01:16:05.779
crooked with it is just wrong. It's wrong. Well,

01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:08.359
so truth can have multiple definitions. Well,

01:16:08.560 --> 01:16:11.760
that's the issue, and that's exactly what we're

01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:15.439
trying to get at here. To me, there's two kinds

01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:19.739
of truth, and they may be commensurate. You may

01:16:19.739 --> 01:16:21.239
be able to stack them on top of one another,

01:16:21.340 --> 01:16:23.319
but now and then they dissociate, and this is

01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:26.819
actually what Brett was referring to as well.

01:16:28.319 --> 01:16:30.680
And this is where it gets so complicated that

01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:34.399
I can barely manage it. there's the truth that

01:16:34.399 --> 01:16:36.859
manifests itself in the manner in which you act,

01:16:37.079 --> 01:16:39.979
and there's the truth that manifests itself as

01:16:39.979 --> 01:16:42.960
a representation of the objective world. And

01:16:42.960 --> 01:16:45.060
sometimes both those truths are stacked on top

01:16:45.060 --> 01:16:46.960
of each other, and sometimes they're not. So,

01:16:47.039 --> 01:16:48.939
like, I could give you a piece of wisdom that

01:16:48.939 --> 01:16:51.859
would work well if you acted it out, that carried

01:16:51.859 --> 01:16:54.359
within it an inaccurate representation of part

01:16:54.359 --> 01:16:56.899
of the objective world. And you could say, well,

01:16:56.920 --> 01:16:58.699
maybe that's actually the case with the biblical

01:16:58.699 --> 01:17:00.939
stories, because if you read them as science...

01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:05.220
They don't read well. So let's take malaria as

01:17:05.220 --> 01:17:07.819
a good example. Malaria. The root of the word

01:17:07.819 --> 01:17:12.279
is malaria, bad air, right? Malaria is not transmitted

01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:14.739
by bad air. It's transmitted by mosquitoes that

01:17:14.739 --> 01:17:16.319
live in places where you might think the air

01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:18.600
is bad. So the point is it's part of the way

01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:21.359
there. Yeah, that's a good one. And that also

01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:24.310
gets, see, there's another weird. distinction

01:17:24.310 --> 01:17:26.770
here that I was trying to draw with Sam, but

01:17:26.770 --> 01:17:28.710
that's a really tricky one. And we augured in

01:17:28.710 --> 01:17:30.829
because we started to talk about pragmatism,

01:17:30.850 --> 01:17:33.130
but there's also something like the truth of

01:17:33.130 --> 01:17:36.729
a description and the truth of a tool. And my

01:17:36.729 --> 01:17:39.390
sense is that people's fundamental truths are

01:17:39.390 --> 01:17:42.630
tool -like. We use them to function properly

01:17:42.630 --> 01:17:45.310
in the world. And you could say, well, a sharp

01:17:45.310 --> 01:17:48.350
axe is more true than a dull axe, and actually

01:17:48.350 --> 01:17:50.510
you can use the word true in that sense. That

01:17:50.510 --> 01:17:53.109
actually isn't appropriate. appropriate use of

01:17:53.109 --> 01:17:56.369
the word there there are tool truths and there

01:17:56.369 --> 01:18:00.289
are objective fact truths now and in the optimal

01:18:00.289 --> 01:18:03.130
circumstance those map onto each other but we're

01:18:03.130 --> 01:18:05.289
not smart enough often to make them map onto

01:18:05.289 --> 01:18:06.810
each other because we just don't know enough

01:18:06.810 --> 01:18:08.909
and there are lots of truths that we have that

01:18:08.909 --> 01:18:11.250
portray the objective world improperly that are

01:18:11.250 --> 01:18:14.069
still true is the problem using the term true

01:18:14.069 --> 01:18:17.789
when sometimes you should use the term fact Like,

01:18:17.789 --> 01:18:21.229
one plus one is two, that is a fact. One plus

01:18:21.229 --> 01:18:24.050
one is two is also true. You throw some water

01:18:24.050 --> 01:18:26.590
on a match, that is, and it'll go out. That's

01:18:26.590 --> 01:18:31.310
a fact. Yes. Well, as I see it, at least, there

01:18:31.310 --> 01:18:34.130
is this overarching truth, the one that Sam Harris

01:18:34.130 --> 01:18:35.909
was pointing to, the one I think you're pointing

01:18:35.909 --> 01:18:39.250
to also, and the one I... I'm imagining we all

01:18:39.250 --> 01:18:41.949
subscribe to. There is the testable truth that

01:18:41.949 --> 01:18:44.409
reveals itself in the laboratory or in a careful

01:18:44.409 --> 01:18:47.409
experiment in the field. And that really is the

01:18:47.409 --> 01:18:49.250
top -level truth. But then there are the truths

01:18:49.250 --> 01:18:53.770
you can't speak yet. So let's take the word filth

01:18:53.770 --> 01:18:59.090
from the Old Testament. Filth means shit. You're

01:18:59.090 --> 01:19:02.550
not supposed to shit in camp because God finds

01:19:02.550 --> 01:19:06.020
it offensive. Now, the problem is the germ theory

01:19:06.020 --> 01:19:08.659
of disease doesn't come about for thousands of

01:19:08.659 --> 01:19:12.380
years after that truth was written. That truth

01:19:12.380 --> 01:19:15.960
keeps you from infecting people long before you

01:19:15.960 --> 01:19:18.079
can ever explain that there are microbes that

01:19:18.079 --> 01:19:20.140
grow in human shit that are a particular danger

01:19:20.140 --> 01:19:22.819
to your population. So the point is, would you

01:19:22.819 --> 01:19:25.960
rather be held back to the place where you can

01:19:25.960 --> 01:19:29.010
actually describe the... the literal underpinnings

01:19:29.010 --> 01:19:31.090
of what's going on? Or do you want to be liberated

01:19:31.090 --> 01:19:34.550
to say something that actually results in an

01:19:34.550 --> 01:19:37.810
improvement in health before, you know, literally

01:19:37.810 --> 01:19:40.229
thousands of years before anybody had any idea

01:19:40.229 --> 01:19:42.270
that it was microbes at the root of this? Yes,

01:19:42.270 --> 01:19:44.630
and you need to figure out, so an elaboration

01:19:44.630 --> 01:19:46.590
of that would be something like human beings

01:19:46.590 --> 01:19:48.689
needed to figure out how to act without dying

01:19:48.689 --> 01:19:50.649
before they could understand the nature of the

01:19:50.649 --> 01:19:52.789
world well enough to justify that. Right, and

01:19:52.789 --> 01:19:56.359
you'd be crazy. now that we do have the germ

01:19:56.359 --> 01:20:01.000
theory of disease, to amplify that original crude

01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:03.859
version of the truth or that crude approximation

01:20:03.859 --> 01:20:06.020
of what you need to believe in order to behave

01:20:06.020 --> 01:20:10.680
safely, there's no reason for that truth to be

01:20:10.680 --> 01:20:12.880
promoted. In fact, you don't hear people describing

01:20:12.880 --> 01:20:16.359
this part of... the Old Testament anymore because

01:20:16.359 --> 01:20:18.979
it's not relevant. And this is probably all why

01:20:18.979 --> 01:20:20.979
dietary restrictions were in the Old Testament

01:20:20.979 --> 01:20:25.739
as well. Shellfish, red tide, eating pigs, trichinosis.

01:20:25.779 --> 01:20:27.880
There's a lot of issues that go along with that.

01:20:28.039 --> 01:20:30.020
Yeah, well, there is some intermingling perhaps

01:20:30.020 --> 01:20:32.680
of hygienic concerns with also the desire for

01:20:32.680 --> 01:20:34.720
the groups to distinguish themselves from other

01:20:34.720 --> 01:20:37.680
groups, right? Because you can unite your group

01:20:37.680 --> 01:20:41.920
quite tightly by dietary restrictions. Back to

01:20:41.920 --> 01:20:44.039
your point about terminology, you know, we could

01:20:44.039 --> 01:20:48.260
do something like fact and wisdom. You know,

01:20:48.260 --> 01:20:50.220
you say truth, that's the overarching category,

01:20:50.319 --> 01:20:52.739
and then that divides into fact and wisdom. And

01:20:52.739 --> 01:20:54.739
what you want, optimally, is you want the facts

01:20:54.739 --> 01:20:57.640
and the wisdom to be one -to -one, but often

01:20:57.640 --> 01:21:00.619
they're not. And if you find wisdom where the

01:21:00.619 --> 01:21:02.680
facts aren't laid right out, you don't just get

01:21:02.680 --> 01:21:04.520
to throw away the wisdom, which is what I think

01:21:04.520 --> 01:21:06.439
happens in the case of people like Dawkins and

01:21:06.439 --> 01:21:08.439
Harris. And Harris makes another sleight -of

01:21:08.439 --> 01:21:10.260
-hand move, which I don't like, which is that...

01:21:10.670 --> 01:21:14.229
He thinks, so let's say, except for just a second,

01:21:14.250 --> 01:21:16.909
the wisdom fact distinction. He would say, well,

01:21:16.949 --> 01:21:19.630
the fact is the thing, and the wisdom is a second

01:21:19.630 --> 01:21:21.609
-order derivation of that. You can ground the

01:21:21.609 --> 01:21:23.390
wisdom in the fact, and I don't believe that.

01:21:23.470 --> 01:21:27.029
And I don't think that he has any real justification

01:21:27.029 --> 01:21:29.470
for that claim. And this is something I never

01:21:29.470 --> 01:21:31.470
got. What do you mean by grounding the wisdom

01:21:31.470 --> 01:21:33.069
in the fact? He thinks if you know the facts

01:21:33.069 --> 01:21:35.819
clearly enough, you'll know how to act. Well,

01:21:35.840 --> 01:21:38.979
that's not necessarily true. There's ways to

01:21:38.979 --> 01:21:41.579
act that are within your best interest, and then

01:21:41.579 --> 01:21:43.439
there's ways to act that are within the interest

01:21:43.439 --> 01:21:45.819
of all the people around you that might not serve

01:21:45.819 --> 01:21:48.600
you that well. And that only distinction is where

01:21:48.600 --> 01:21:50.460
ethics come in. Right, or where the consequences

01:21:50.460 --> 01:21:53.319
are delayed for some number of generations or

01:21:53.319 --> 01:21:54.840
something like that. Yes, well, that's a big

01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:59.399
problem. So Sam acts as if the process of mapping

01:21:59.399 --> 01:22:02.920
facts onto action is simple if we just got the

01:22:02.920 --> 01:22:06.460
facts right. is part of his argument and we never

01:22:06.460 --> 01:22:08.800
ever got to that for a variety of reasons but

01:22:08.800 --> 01:22:11.840
part of the reason it's weak is okay well there's

01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:14.720
like an infinite number of facts man which so

01:22:14.720 --> 01:22:16.340
let's say you're standing in front of a field

01:22:16.340 --> 01:22:18.579
and you're looking at the field the field does

01:22:18.579 --> 01:22:21.159
not tell you how to walk through it there's a

01:22:21.159 --> 01:22:23.560
million ways through the field and no matter

01:22:23.560 --> 01:22:25.739
how many facts about the field you aggregate

01:22:25.739 --> 01:22:27.439
you're not going to be able to determine the

01:22:27.439 --> 01:22:30.460
appropriate path by aggregating those facts so

01:22:30.460 --> 01:22:32.300
it's that's and that that's a problem that i

01:22:32.300 --> 01:22:35.220
don't think sam is willing to take seriously.

01:22:35.380 --> 01:22:38.520
And, well. Well, I think there are two problems

01:22:38.520 --> 01:22:42.479
tangled up here. One of them is there's a question

01:22:42.479 --> 01:22:46.159
of, is one individual supposed to have all of

01:22:46.159 --> 01:22:49.479
the facts and navigate based on that, sort of

01:22:49.479 --> 01:22:51.840
the rationality community version of things?

01:22:52.319 --> 01:22:55.840
Or does, you know, the practical truth is we

01:22:55.840 --> 01:22:57.579
can't all be experts in everything, and so we

01:22:57.579 --> 01:23:00.300
have to go along with, you know. guides to our

01:23:00.300 --> 01:23:02.779
behavior that are approximate and that's inherent.

01:23:03.079 --> 01:23:04.779
And then there's a question about civilization.

01:23:06.140 --> 01:23:09.600
Civilization should be guided by our best understanding

01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:11.579
of what's actually true, but with an understanding

01:23:11.579 --> 01:23:15.960
that we don't have a complete map of a lot of

01:23:15.960 --> 01:23:18.340
stuff. And so I think what you're pointing at

01:23:18.340 --> 01:23:20.640
is that there is wisdom that has been handed

01:23:20.640 --> 01:23:23.279
to us that is not such that we can just simply

01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:25.220
say, oh, here's the nugget at the center of it

01:23:25.220 --> 01:23:27.359
and we need to preserve that thing because we

01:23:27.359 --> 01:23:29.870
don't necessarily know what it's doing. Which

01:23:29.870 --> 01:23:33.170
is, you know, this is dangerous because some

01:23:33.170 --> 01:23:35.409
of what it's doing may not be acceptable. Well,

01:23:35.430 --> 01:23:37.489
and think about, let's look at the wisdom end

01:23:37.489 --> 01:23:39.550
of things for a minute. And you talked, you alluded

01:23:39.550 --> 01:23:42.770
a little earlier to like iterations and about

01:23:42.770 --> 01:23:44.850
the fact that things are iterated across time

01:23:44.850 --> 01:23:46.670
and that something that works now might fail

01:23:46.670 --> 01:23:49.449
dreadfully in a month or two months. So here's

01:23:49.449 --> 01:23:53.170
what something has to be like to be wise, let's

01:23:53.170 --> 01:23:56.399
say. Well, first of all... Let's say, it would

01:23:56.399 --> 01:23:58.239
be good if it was in accordance with the facts,

01:23:58.359 --> 01:24:01.279
but we'll leave that aside for now. It has to

01:24:01.279 --> 01:24:03.859
work, if you operate according to the wisdom

01:24:03.859 --> 01:24:06.180
principle, whatever it is, it has to work in

01:24:06.180 --> 01:24:09.079
the world. But then it has to work in a world

01:24:09.079 --> 01:24:11.140
that allows you to maintain your relationships

01:24:11.140 --> 01:24:13.720
with people in the world. Right? So it's all

01:24:13.720 --> 01:24:15.539
of a sudden, this wisdom thing is something that's

01:24:15.539 --> 01:24:17.399
not only constrained by, let's call it objective

01:24:17.399 --> 01:24:20.300
reality, but it's constrained by the necessity

01:24:20.300 --> 01:24:23.079
of a social contract, a functional social contract.

01:24:23.340 --> 01:24:26.260
So you're only... able to you're only allowed

01:24:26.260 --> 01:24:29.199
to put forward actions in the world that would

01:24:29.199 --> 01:24:31.619
be of benefit to you if they simultaneously don't

01:24:31.619 --> 01:24:33.460
undermine the structure within which you live

01:24:33.460 --> 01:24:36.039
okay and then there's a game theory element to

01:24:36.039 --> 01:24:38.760
that which is well if it's wise then it works

01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:40.779
in the world so that'd be the constraint of objective

01:24:40.779 --> 01:24:44.840
reality but then it works for you now and the

01:24:44.840 --> 01:24:46.560
you that'll be in a week and the you that'll

01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:49.199
be in a month and it works for you and your family

01:24:49.199 --> 01:24:51.239
and it works for you and your family and society

01:24:51.239 --> 01:24:53.399
and it works in a way that those things all line

01:24:53.399 --> 01:24:57.260
up to be iterated across time. And so this is

01:24:57.260 --> 01:25:00.000
actually also the solution. I'd really like to

01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:02.039
hear what you think about this. I think this

01:25:02.039 --> 01:25:04.119
is the solution to the postmodern conundrum.

01:25:04.319 --> 01:25:06.739
Because the postmodernists, bless their hearts,

01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:10.100
so we'll give the devil his due, say, well, the

01:25:10.100 --> 01:25:12.180
problem is there's an infinite number of interpretations

01:25:12.180 --> 01:25:15.680
of a finite set of facts. And the right response

01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:20.359
to that is, uh -oh, that's true. That's true.

01:25:20.579 --> 01:25:22.560
That's not good. And that's why the postmodernists

01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:24.539
say, well, you can't agree on a canonical interpretation

01:25:24.539 --> 01:25:26.739
of a great piece of literature, because the number

01:25:26.739 --> 01:25:29.060
of potential interpretations are infinite. And

01:25:29.060 --> 01:25:30.560
so then they say, well, why should we settle

01:25:30.560 --> 01:25:32.500
on any one interpretation then? Why should we

01:25:32.500 --> 01:25:34.699
privilege one over another? And then they say,

01:25:34.760 --> 01:25:36.800
well, that's all power games. And so that's a...

01:25:36.800 --> 01:25:39.420
You've got to take that seriously. But what they

01:25:39.420 --> 01:25:41.640
missed, and this is a big deal, it's a big deal,

01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:44.760
I think, is this idea of ethical constraint.

01:25:44.960 --> 01:25:47.020
It's like, yes, there's a landscape of potentially

01:25:47.020 --> 01:25:50.109
infinite interpretations, but... hardly any of

01:25:50.109 --> 01:25:52.390
them will work in the real world. And hardly

01:25:52.390 --> 01:25:54.329
any of them will work in the real world in a

01:25:54.329 --> 01:25:56.289
way that doesn't get you killed by other people

01:25:56.289 --> 01:25:59.029
or doom you because of your own stupidity to

01:25:59.029 --> 01:26:02.390
failure across time. And so the landscape of

01:26:02.390 --> 01:26:05.090
interpretation is almost infinite, but the landscape

01:26:05.090 --> 01:26:08.829
of applicable interpretation, functional interpretation,

01:26:08.909 --> 01:26:11.449
is unbelievably constrained. And I think that

01:26:11.449 --> 01:26:13.729
constraint system is what we regard as ethics.

01:26:13.869 --> 01:26:16.529
It's something like that. Well, at some level,

01:26:17.430 --> 01:26:20.550
Stories continue through time for a reason. Good

01:26:20.550 --> 01:26:23.670
stories continue for a long... The Odyssey is

01:26:23.670 --> 01:26:26.649
with us for some reason. So there is a scientific

01:26:26.649 --> 01:26:29.689
reason or a scientifically investigatable reason

01:26:29.689 --> 01:26:33.170
why the Odyssey has been durable. We may not

01:26:33.170 --> 01:26:35.210
know it, but in principle, it's a question you

01:26:35.210 --> 01:26:39.189
could investigate. So I guess at the end of the

01:26:39.189 --> 01:26:41.170
day, the problem with the postmodernists is that

01:26:41.170 --> 01:26:43.670
they have a point. The point is perception gets

01:26:43.670 --> 01:26:45.989
in the way of anything we wish to do objectively.

01:26:46.890 --> 01:26:50.130
But that point only takes you so far. That's

01:26:50.130 --> 01:26:52.189
why they turn to Marxism, as far as I can tell,

01:26:52.229 --> 01:26:54.109
because what happens with the postmodernists

01:26:54.109 --> 01:26:56.050
is they say, oh, there's an infinite number of

01:26:56.050 --> 01:26:58.710
interpretations. And then the human part of them

01:26:58.710 --> 01:27:02.670
goes, okay, well, what am I supposed to do next

01:27:02.670 --> 01:27:05.149
then, since there's an infinite number of choices?

01:27:05.609 --> 01:27:07.989
And the postmodernist says, well, my theory can't

01:27:07.989 --> 01:27:09.770
account for that. And then they say, well, back

01:27:09.770 --> 01:27:12.149
to Marxism. And so that's why I think there's

01:27:12.149 --> 01:27:14.409
this unholy alliance between the postmodernists

01:27:14.409 --> 01:27:16.649
and the neo -Marxists. It's because postmodernism

01:27:16.649 --> 01:27:19.770
is a dead end from the perspective of applicable

01:27:19.770 --> 01:27:22.930
wisdom. It leaves you bereft and nihilistic.

01:27:23.090 --> 01:27:25.250
And that's not good, because people can't exist

01:27:25.250 --> 01:27:27.890
without a purpose. And so they sneak the Marxism

01:27:27.890 --> 01:27:31.579
through the back door. jump into this power landscape

01:27:31.579 --> 01:27:33.739
for the reasons that we discussed earlier. You

01:27:33.739 --> 01:27:35.279
really think that it's because of an infinite

01:27:35.279 --> 01:27:37.239
number of possibilities interpreting things?

01:27:37.340 --> 01:27:38.760
Because I've always felt that it was really just

01:27:38.760 --> 01:27:41.840
a response to capitalism. They feel that capitalism

01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:44.840
is a very negative aspect of our culture and

01:27:44.840 --> 01:27:46.500
society and that there's got to be some sort

01:27:46.500 --> 01:27:48.979
of an alternative. Marxism is a clearly defined

01:27:48.979 --> 01:27:51.100
alternative that other people have subscribed

01:27:51.100 --> 01:27:54.119
to in the past. You can point to it. It's a structure

01:27:54.119 --> 01:27:57.739
that's already set up and it's romanticized.

01:27:58.090 --> 01:27:59.949
And I think they adopted for that reason, because

01:27:59.949 --> 01:28:01.850
it has the socialist aspects attached to it,

01:28:01.890 --> 01:28:04.390
and they looked at socialism as some sort of

01:28:04.390 --> 01:28:08.250
a thing that regards equality and, you know,

01:28:08.270 --> 01:28:10.149
it's some sort of an egalitarian approach. Well,

01:28:10.149 --> 01:28:14.050
it's... Okay, so we'd have to take two things

01:28:14.050 --> 01:28:17.489
apart. We'd have to take Marxism slash neo -Marxism

01:28:17.489 --> 01:28:20.210
and post -modernism apart. So we could do that

01:28:20.210 --> 01:28:23.930
historically. And I would say that, although

01:28:23.930 --> 01:28:26.210
there is a reason for post -modernism, which

01:28:26.210 --> 01:28:28.689
is the reason we just discussed, the infinite

01:28:28.689 --> 01:28:31.609
landscape of interpretation problem. It's a real

01:28:31.609 --> 01:28:34.869
problem. If you look at it historically, postmodernism

01:28:34.869 --> 01:28:39.229
actually grew out of Marxism. And so what happened

01:28:39.229 --> 01:28:44.050
is that the Marxists laid out their theory about

01:28:44.050 --> 01:28:47.810
the human social environment being composed of

01:28:47.810 --> 01:28:50.229
a power struggle between the privileged and the

01:28:50.229 --> 01:28:51.850
underprivileged, right? The rich and the poor

01:28:51.850 --> 01:28:55.659
in its initial phases. That's a story that's

01:28:55.659 --> 01:28:58.199
partially true, and it's got a lot of motive

01:28:58.199 --> 01:29:00.859
power. The motive power is the romantic motive

01:29:00.859 --> 01:29:02.779
power that you just described. I get to be on

01:29:02.779 --> 01:29:04.619
the side of the oppressed. I get to be a warrior

01:29:04.619 --> 01:29:07.319
for what's right. There's the resentment element,

01:29:07.420 --> 01:29:09.479
which is, that son of a bitch has more than me,

01:29:09.560 --> 01:29:11.739
so let's cut him off at the knees, which manifested

01:29:11.739 --> 01:29:14.399
itself brutally in the Soviet Union. And then

01:29:14.399 --> 01:29:16.859
there's the ideological totality issue, which

01:29:16.859 --> 01:29:19.159
gives people a sense of security. That took a

01:29:19.159 --> 01:29:22.930
vicious hit. by the late 1960s, because the murderousness

01:29:22.930 --> 01:29:25.130
of Marxism had been clearly laid out as a doctrine.

01:29:25.350 --> 01:29:29.090
And that opened the door to this move by mostly

01:29:29.090 --> 01:29:32.930
French intellectuals to... to develop the postmodern

01:29:32.930 --> 01:29:34.850
philosophy, which has these advantages which

01:29:34.850 --> 01:29:38.989
we described, but also to use that as a screening

01:29:38.989 --> 01:29:41.729
tactic for allowing Marxism to transform into

01:29:41.729 --> 01:29:44.710
identity politics. And so, like, it's hard to

01:29:44.710 --> 01:29:46.729
disentangle all the motivations that are going

01:29:46.729 --> 01:29:48.529
on in there, but there's something about it that's

01:29:48.529 --> 01:29:52.390
truly intellectually pathological, because you

01:29:52.390 --> 01:29:54.770
don't get to be a postmodernist and a Marxist.

01:29:55.279 --> 01:29:57.939
You actually technically cannot be both of those

01:29:57.939 --> 01:30:00.279
things at the same time. And the fact that most

01:30:00.279 --> 01:30:03.180
people are both of those things at the same time

01:30:03.180 --> 01:30:06.399
raises the specter of just exactly what their

01:30:06.399 --> 01:30:08.619
motivation is. And then I would say it's this

01:30:08.619 --> 01:30:12.180
resentment -driven anti -capitalism. There's

01:30:12.180 --> 01:30:14.399
reasons to criticize capitalism, obviously, but

01:30:14.399 --> 01:30:17.020
it's this underground resentment -driven anti

01:30:17.020 --> 01:30:19.000
-capitalism that I think is one of the fundamental

01:30:19.000 --> 01:30:21.840
motivators. Well, if I can add a couple things.

01:30:23.289 --> 01:30:27.109
The risk of alienating my last few friends. In

01:30:27.109 --> 01:30:30.069
for a penny, man. Yeah, I guess. So here's the

01:30:30.069 --> 01:30:34.369
thing. What's up with Marxism is, A, there's

01:30:34.369 --> 01:30:36.970
a lot in Marx's critique of capitalism that's

01:30:36.970 --> 01:30:39.329
actually right. And so that kind of gets you

01:30:39.329 --> 01:30:41.489
through the door once you start looking at the

01:30:41.489 --> 01:30:43.810
analysis. And then there's the prescription,

01:30:44.050 --> 01:30:48.489
which is toxic. But it's not obvious why it's

01:30:48.489 --> 01:30:50.949
toxic. In other words, it's a pretty good story

01:30:50.949 --> 01:30:54.529
that doesn't happen to function. And so people

01:30:54.529 --> 01:30:57.590
gravitate to it because the story is moderately

01:30:57.590 --> 01:31:00.970
compelling. It's not game theoretically functional

01:31:00.970 --> 01:31:04.069
or stable or viable, and it does descend into

01:31:04.069 --> 01:31:07.029
this kind of, you know, inevitable grave violence.

01:31:07.329 --> 01:31:10.430
And so we know that now historically. It's not

01:31:10.430 --> 01:31:12.609
just a theoretical issue. We've now seen enough

01:31:12.609 --> 01:31:14.770
of it to know that as a fact. But nonetheless,

01:31:15.050 --> 01:31:17.369
the fact that there are people telling the story.

01:31:17.880 --> 01:31:21.279
to kids who don't yet know what to do with something

01:31:21.279 --> 01:31:25.619
that sounds like it might be true is very dangerous.

01:31:25.779 --> 01:31:28.100
If you don't mind, break it down as to why it

01:31:28.100 --> 01:31:31.420
goes bad. Well, I mean, it's sort of a tired

01:31:31.420 --> 01:31:33.500
critique, but I happen to think it's about right,

01:31:33.619 --> 01:31:36.979
which is that it just does not take account of

01:31:36.979 --> 01:31:41.340
what a human being is and what makes society

01:31:41.340 --> 01:31:44.649
function. spoken like a true fascist biological

01:31:44.649 --> 01:31:48.750
essentialist. That wasn't very nice, Peterson.

01:31:49.970 --> 01:31:53.390
I think that is. Well, I think it might be related

01:31:53.390 --> 01:31:56.989
back to... Okay, so let's go back to the idea

01:31:56.989 --> 01:31:58.949
that Marx had something to say. Okay, and we

01:31:58.949 --> 01:32:00.590
could clarify that a little bit. So here's a

01:32:00.590 --> 01:32:03.380
problem. This is the problem that seems to emerge

01:32:03.380 --> 01:32:06.500
as the function of some really fundamental force

01:32:06.500 --> 01:32:09.020
that we don't quite understand. And that's this

01:32:09.020 --> 01:32:11.939
phenomena that I've been referring to as the

01:32:11.939 --> 01:32:15.239
Pareto distribution. Okay, so here's the situation.

01:32:15.699 --> 01:32:18.880
If you look at any creative endeavor that human

01:32:18.880 --> 01:32:20.859
beings engage in, so that would be an endeavor

01:32:20.859 --> 01:32:23.460
where there's variability in individual production.

01:32:23.779 --> 01:32:26.239
It doesn't matter what it is. Here's what happens.

01:32:26.680 --> 01:32:30.000
People compete to produce whatever that is. And

01:32:30.000 --> 01:32:33.539
almost everybody produces zero. They lose completely.

01:32:34.020 --> 01:32:38.199
A small minority are a tiny bit successful, and

01:32:38.199 --> 01:32:42.319
a hyper -minority are insanely successful. And

01:32:42.319 --> 01:32:48.340
so the Pareto distribution is the geometric graph

01:32:48.340 --> 01:32:51.760
representation of that phenomena. And so here's

01:32:51.760 --> 01:32:56.199
how it manifests itself. If you have 10 ,000

01:32:56.199 --> 01:32:59.340
people, 100 of them have half the money. So the

01:32:59.340 --> 01:33:01.479
rule is the square root of the number of people

01:33:01.479 --> 01:33:03.680
under consideration have half of whatever it

01:33:03.680 --> 01:33:05.600
is that's under consideration. So this works

01:33:05.600 --> 01:33:08.399
everywhere. So if you took 100 classical composers,

01:33:08.680 --> 01:33:10.840
10 of them produce half the music that's played.

01:33:11.060 --> 01:33:14.340
And then if you take the 10 composers and you

01:33:14.340 --> 01:33:17.619
take 1 ,000 of their songs, 30 of those songs,

01:33:17.699 --> 01:33:19.640
which is the square root of 1 ,000, roughly speaking,

01:33:19.840 --> 01:33:23.380
are played 50 % of the time. And so there's this

01:33:23.380 --> 01:33:26.930
underlying natural law. which is, it's expressed

01:33:26.930 --> 01:33:28.989
as the Matthew principle, which is from a New

01:33:28.989 --> 01:33:32.029
Testament statement. The statement is, to those

01:33:32.029 --> 01:33:33.829
who have everything, more will be given, and

01:33:33.829 --> 01:33:35.789
from those who have nothing, everything will

01:33:35.789 --> 01:33:38.170
be taken. It's a vicious statement, but it's

01:33:38.170 --> 01:33:40.569
actually, here's one of those places where it's

01:33:40.569 --> 01:33:42.909
actually empirically true. This happens everywhere.

01:33:43.229 --> 01:33:45.989
And so what Marx observed was that capital tended

01:33:45.989 --> 01:33:47.770
to accumulate in the hands of fewer and fewer

01:33:47.770 --> 01:33:50.029
people. And he said that's a flaw of the capitalist

01:33:50.029 --> 01:33:53.520
system. That's wrong. It's not a flaw of the

01:33:53.520 --> 01:33:56.420
capitalist system. It is a feature of every single

01:33:56.420 --> 01:33:58.680
system of production that we know of, no matter

01:33:58.680 --> 01:34:01.539
who set it up and how it operates. And so now

01:34:01.539 --> 01:34:04.779
we have a problem, because what happens is, as

01:34:04.779 --> 01:34:07.000
soon as you set up a domain of production, and

01:34:07.000 --> 01:34:08.840
you need to because you need things to be produced,

01:34:09.100 --> 01:34:12.119
then you instantly produce a competition, and

01:34:12.119 --> 01:34:15.319
the spoils go disproportionately to a tiny percentage

01:34:15.319 --> 01:34:19.859
of people. So then, well, so what? so the rest

01:34:19.859 --> 01:34:22.079
of the people starve, or the system becomes unstable

01:34:22.079 --> 01:34:24.159
because everybody's mad. It's like that's a big

01:34:24.159 --> 01:34:26.550
problem. Okay, so how do human beings fix that?

01:34:26.729 --> 01:34:29.029
Well, the first thing we did was diversify the

01:34:29.029 --> 01:34:31.850
number of productive games. So you don't get

01:34:31.850 --> 01:34:35.350
to be NBA basketball star, but you can run a

01:34:35.350 --> 01:34:37.430
podcast. It's a completely different competitive

01:34:37.430 --> 01:34:40.510
landscape. So we can fractionate the production

01:34:40.510 --> 01:34:43.329
landscape, and then people who aren't successful

01:34:43.329 --> 01:34:45.390
in one domain might be successful in others.

01:34:45.489 --> 01:34:47.409
That's human creativity. We're really good at

01:34:47.409 --> 01:34:49.850
that. But the problem with that is you still

01:34:49.850 --> 01:34:51.930
get a positive correlation among the successful

01:34:51.930 --> 01:34:55.229
people. So because you're so successful, for

01:34:55.229 --> 01:34:57.789
example, with your podcast and your YouTube videos,

01:34:57.949 --> 01:35:00.989
your connection network is insane, insanely powerful.

01:35:01.689 --> 01:35:05.630
So you still have this tendency for what's useful

01:35:05.630 --> 01:35:12.069
and good to be distributed, let's call it, inequitably.

01:35:12.520 --> 01:35:15.600
And it's got the power of a physical law. In

01:35:15.600 --> 01:35:17.060
fact, there are people, they call themselves

01:35:17.060 --> 01:35:19.420
econophysicists. No one knows that there's a

01:35:19.420 --> 01:35:22.199
field. Econophysicists. Econophysics. And they

01:35:22.199 --> 01:35:27.340
use the same mathematical equations that... represent

01:35:27.340 --> 01:35:31.159
the propagation of gas molecules into a vacuum

01:35:31.159 --> 01:35:33.479
to describe the manner in which money distributes

01:35:33.479 --> 01:35:36.060
itself in an economy. Okay, so Marx pointed to

01:35:36.060 --> 01:35:38.659
a fundamental issue. But he said, well, that's

01:35:38.659 --> 01:35:40.720
a fault with capitalism. It's like, no, it isn't.

01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:43.220
It's something way more pernicious than that.

01:35:43.300 --> 01:35:45.319
And it's something like, well, when one good

01:35:45.319 --> 01:35:46.779
thing happens to you, it makes you a little more

01:35:46.779 --> 01:35:49.699
powerful and attractive. And so that fractionally

01:35:49.699 --> 01:35:51.840
increases the possibility that another good thing

01:35:51.840 --> 01:35:54.699
will happen to you. And then that... spirals

01:35:54.699 --> 01:35:56.600
out of control, and you get people who have,

01:35:56.720 --> 01:35:59.060
well, they have all the money, or they have all

01:35:59.060 --> 01:36:01.140
the podcast downloads. You're in that position.

01:36:01.760 --> 01:36:05.420
You know, what is it, 1 .2 billion? Like, what

01:36:05.420 --> 01:36:09.159
the hell? But it's to those who have more, and

01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:10.720
it's not because there's something oppressive

01:36:10.720 --> 01:36:14.180
about you. It's because you rode the wave of

01:36:14.180 --> 01:36:16.800
the Pareto distribution, and it threw you way

01:36:16.800 --> 01:36:19.479
the hell up into the stratosphere. And we don't

01:36:19.479 --> 01:36:21.640
know what to do about that. Like, should you

01:36:21.640 --> 01:36:24.359
be sharing your podcast views with the oppressed

01:36:24.359 --> 01:36:27.180
and downtrodden? Well, you've got a few billion,

01:36:27.279 --> 01:36:29.060
you could spread the damn things around. It's

01:36:29.060 --> 01:36:30.779
not fair that you're the only one that's being

01:36:30.779 --> 01:36:32.520
listened to. You know, it's the same argument.

01:36:32.800 --> 01:36:34.880
And it's a compelling argument, because why the

01:36:34.880 --> 01:36:37.420
hell should you have all that power? If you call

01:36:37.420 --> 01:36:39.439
it power, you could call it authority or competence.

01:36:39.539 --> 01:36:41.039
But isn't that a different argument? Because

01:36:41.039 --> 01:36:44.300
no one's asking anyone to download anything in

01:36:44.300 --> 01:36:46.960
specific. No one's compelling anyone to download

01:36:46.960 --> 01:36:48.840
anything specific. You could download whatever

01:36:48.840 --> 01:36:51.079
you want. And if you put more effort and more

01:36:51.079 --> 01:36:53.340
time and more focus into your work, whatever

01:36:53.340 --> 01:36:56.119
it would be, whether it's a podcast or your YouTube

01:36:56.119 --> 01:36:58.619
videos or whatever, people enjoy it. They gravitate

01:36:58.619 --> 01:37:02.539
towards it. And then over time, it exponentially

01:37:02.539 --> 01:37:04.659
increases the amount of people that are exposed

01:37:04.659 --> 01:37:08.460
to it. and this is the other problem with the

01:37:08.460 --> 01:37:11.140
Marxist perspective, and the postmodernists in

01:37:11.140 --> 01:37:15.819
particular, they conflate power, competence,

01:37:15.920 --> 01:37:18.680
and authority unfairly. Now, your point, it's

01:37:18.680 --> 01:37:20.399
sort of the point of free marketers. You're saying,

01:37:20.439 --> 01:37:22.119
well, look, all I'm doing is offering a product.

01:37:22.199 --> 01:37:24.880
I'm not compelling anyone. It's a quality product,

01:37:24.979 --> 01:37:27.020
or at least as far as the market is concerned,

01:37:27.079 --> 01:37:29.500
it is. If it turns out that everyone wants that,

01:37:29.560 --> 01:37:32.359
well, what's wrong with that? And I'm not disagreeing

01:37:32.359 --> 01:37:35.539
with that argument in the least, but... But the

01:37:35.539 --> 01:37:39.159
problem is it doesn't fix the problem. Like the

01:37:39.159 --> 01:37:41.060
problem with money, let's say. The problem is

01:37:41.060 --> 01:37:43.819
that if you let a monetary system run... All

01:37:43.819 --> 01:37:45.439
the money ends up in the hands of a very small

01:37:45.439 --> 01:37:48.319
number of people. And you're saying this is also

01:37:48.319 --> 01:37:50.359
with any sort of creative endeavor. Any creative

01:37:50.359 --> 01:37:53.520
endeavor, Matt. Now, what is wrong? I think the

01:37:53.520 --> 01:37:56.659
real issue would be to maximize potential output

01:37:56.659 --> 01:37:59.640
or maximize the amount of successful people.

01:37:59.899 --> 01:38:02.520
You'd have to figure out what's – don't concentrate

01:38:02.520 --> 01:38:04.979
on what people are doing right. Concentrate on

01:38:04.979 --> 01:38:07.949
what people are doing wrong. Like, what are the

01:38:07.949 --> 01:38:11.109
people doing wrong that are failing in any creative

01:38:11.109 --> 01:38:13.369
endeavor? Well, that's partly why we put together...

01:38:13.369 --> 01:38:15.210
Sorry, just give me one minute. That's partly

01:38:15.210 --> 01:38:17.109
why we put together the Future Authoring Program.

01:38:17.550 --> 01:38:19.449
Because we were trying to figure out what made

01:38:19.449 --> 01:38:21.550
people successful. And one of the things that

01:38:21.550 --> 01:38:24.409
makes people successful is they specify a target

01:38:24.409 --> 01:38:26.949
and then aim at it. Right? Because if you're

01:38:26.949 --> 01:38:29.729
all over the... We do know, in a relatively functional

01:38:29.729 --> 01:38:32.409
society like ours, we know what predicts success.

01:38:32.829 --> 01:38:36.100
IQ. and conscientiousness are the biggest predictors

01:38:36.100 --> 01:38:38.579
of success. Now, there's a genetic lottery thing

01:38:38.579 --> 01:38:41.100
going on there that's kind of rough, but it does

01:38:41.100 --> 01:38:43.180
say that smart people who work hard are disproportionately

01:38:43.180 --> 01:38:46.220
likely to succeed. And then you might also say,

01:38:46.300 --> 01:38:48.359
well, you want to remove the impediments from

01:38:48.359 --> 01:38:50.279
people who have those capabilities so that they

01:38:50.279 --> 01:38:53.260
can move forward. And one of the predictors of

01:38:53.260 --> 01:38:56.090
success as well is... to decide what your success

01:38:56.090 --> 01:38:58.289
is going to be and then work hard in that direction.

01:38:58.430 --> 01:39:00.609
And that actually works. So I think that is a

01:39:00.609 --> 01:39:03.029
very useful thing to do. And that's, well, like

01:39:03.029 --> 01:39:04.529
I said, that's partly why we've been working

01:39:04.529 --> 01:39:07.890
in that direction. But there's other problems

01:39:07.890 --> 01:39:10.550
that it still doesn't solve. Like one of them

01:39:10.550 --> 01:39:14.670
is, if you don't have any money, it's really

01:39:14.670 --> 01:39:17.689
hard to get some. Like once you have some, it's

01:39:17.689 --> 01:39:20.170
not so hard to get some more. But if you're at

01:39:20.170 --> 01:39:23.109
zero, Jesus, man, you're in this... You're in

01:39:23.109 --> 01:39:26.489
the reverse situation. You're poor. You don't

01:39:26.489 --> 01:39:28.529
have anything. No one wants to talk to you. You

01:39:28.529 --> 01:39:30.390
can't get out of it because you're too poor to

01:39:30.390 --> 01:39:32.729
get out of it. You're penalized by the economic

01:39:32.729 --> 01:39:35.109
system because you can't even afford to start

01:39:35.109 --> 01:39:37.390
playing the game. You're stuck at zero. You're

01:39:37.390 --> 01:39:40.029
stuck at zero. And you can't get out. And the

01:39:40.029 --> 01:39:42.130
revolutionary types, they go to the people who

01:39:42.130 --> 01:39:43.970
are stuck at zero and they say, hey, you're stuck

01:39:43.970 --> 01:39:45.670
at zero. Why don't you burn the whole goddamn

01:39:45.670 --> 01:39:48.229
thing to the ground? Because maybe in the next

01:39:48.229 --> 01:39:50.369
iteration you won't be stuck at zero. And for

01:39:50.369 --> 01:39:53.789
young men? That's a hell of a call. Because they're

01:39:53.789 --> 01:39:56.930
already, let's call them expendable, biologically.

01:39:57.149 --> 01:39:58.949
And that makes them more adventurous and risk

01:39:58.949 --> 01:40:00.909
-taking. If someone says, and maybe that's why

01:40:00.909 --> 01:40:02.670
they wear the Che Guevara t -shirt, it's like,

01:40:02.729 --> 01:40:05.050
hey, I'm stuck at zero. Well, I'd rather be with

01:40:05.050 --> 01:40:06.710
the romantic who's burning the whole thing to

01:40:06.710 --> 01:40:09.409
the ground than to just, you know, to stay locked

01:40:09.409 --> 01:40:12.729
in my immobile position. Right, but that zero

01:40:12.729 --> 01:40:15.569
is where massive amounts of creativity come from

01:40:15.569 --> 01:40:18.050
because of that struggle. Massive amounts of

01:40:18.050 --> 01:40:20.170
innovation, massive amounts of people who have

01:40:20.170 --> 01:40:23.550
visions because you're not living off of some

01:40:23.550 --> 01:40:27.350
sort of trust fund. You have real risk and real

01:40:27.350 --> 01:40:30.729
danger, and you have a real concern about your

01:40:30.729 --> 01:40:33.729
future. Whereas someone who has no concerns whatsoever,

01:40:33.970 --> 01:40:36.810
and their future is carved in stone, they can

01:40:36.810 --> 01:40:38.590
do whatever they want and buy a new Ferrari every

01:40:38.590 --> 01:40:41.109
year, they're not going to have nearly the amount

01:40:41.109 --> 01:40:43.050
of motivation as the poor person. Yeah, well,

01:40:43.130 --> 01:40:45.489
that may be why family fortunes tend to only

01:40:45.489 --> 01:40:48.029
last three generations. Yes. And you're saying,

01:40:48.189 --> 01:40:50.470
well, why don't you take a look at the advantages

01:40:50.470 --> 01:40:53.439
of zero? And one of the advantages there is that

01:40:53.439 --> 01:40:55.939
you're driven by brute necessity. And that can

01:40:55.939 --> 01:40:58.199
really be motivating. And that's, I think, why

01:40:58.199 --> 01:41:00.779
the children of first -generation immigrants

01:41:00.779 --> 01:41:03.659
often do so well. You know, they're driven by

01:41:03.659 --> 01:41:09.199
necessity. So, yes, agreed. However, I would

01:41:09.199 --> 01:41:11.600
still say, you know, the zero issue is there

01:41:11.600 --> 01:41:14.199
are levels of absolute privation that are so

01:41:14.199 --> 01:41:17.640
intense that all the goodwill in the world won't

01:41:17.640 --> 01:41:19.939
get you out of zero. Right. If you're living

01:41:19.939 --> 01:41:23.000
in a third world country in some very small village

01:41:23.000 --> 01:41:25.739
with no way out whatsoever, that is the zero

01:41:25.739 --> 01:41:29.760
of zero. You're in Tanzania on the river. People

01:41:29.760 --> 01:41:31.800
are getting eaten by crocodiles in your village.

01:41:31.859 --> 01:41:34.760
You're fucked. Yes. Zero is like a magnet. It

01:41:34.760 --> 01:41:36.000
just holds you there. Yeah, it's a black hole.

01:41:36.020 --> 01:41:38.960
Having a little, very little, maybe that motivational

01:41:38.960 --> 01:41:42.220
state that's actually generative. Right. There's

01:41:42.220 --> 01:41:44.060
a difference. And then what's really bizarre

01:41:44.060 --> 01:41:47.600
is those people in that village. might be happier

01:41:47.600 --> 01:41:49.560
than the people who live in a gated community

01:41:49.560 --> 01:41:52.180
in Beverly Hills. Well, I wanted to come back

01:41:52.180 --> 01:41:54.960
to this. Your point about whether we should be

01:41:54.960 --> 01:41:56.439
concentrating on what you're doing right versus

01:41:56.439 --> 01:41:59.739
what you're doing wrong. Both of those will work,

01:41:59.760 --> 01:42:01.819
and you should actually be doing both of them

01:42:01.819 --> 01:42:05.100
simultaneously. You'll maximize faster. But the

01:42:05.100 --> 01:42:08.260
real problem is that the system in which we concentrate

01:42:08.260 --> 01:42:11.199
on what you're doing right and what you're doing

01:42:11.199 --> 01:42:14.119
wrong, and supposedly you get paid for some...

01:42:14.479 --> 01:42:18.819
integration of those things, is that we don't

01:42:18.819 --> 01:42:23.100
understand what we are wired to produce evolutionarily,

01:42:23.279 --> 01:42:26.380
right? We think. We all operate based on the

01:42:26.380 --> 01:42:29.659
idea that we're pursuing some state of happiness

01:42:29.659 --> 01:42:33.380
or satisfaction, and we think we know what's

01:42:33.380 --> 01:42:35.619
going to get it for us, and maybe it's inventing

01:42:35.619 --> 01:42:39.680
something, and then you'll be happy. But it's

01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:43.289
a trap. The fact is what we are wired to do is

01:42:43.289 --> 01:42:46.989
to discover opportunities, and then when we discover

01:42:46.989 --> 01:42:49.250
an opportunity, it benefits the population that

01:42:49.250 --> 01:42:53.130
we come from, and we turn that discovery into

01:42:53.130 --> 01:42:55.449
either more mouths to feed or more consumption,

01:42:55.569 --> 01:42:58.909
and we restore the state of privation, right?

01:42:58.970 --> 01:43:01.130
We restore the state in which people don't have

01:43:01.130 --> 01:43:04.510
enough. And so if you really wanted to fix this

01:43:04.510 --> 01:43:07.029
problem, if you wanted to address the problems

01:43:07.029 --> 01:43:09.569
that communism thinks it's solving but fails

01:43:09.569 --> 01:43:14.380
to, You have to engineer around this feature

01:43:14.380 --> 01:43:17.760
of human beings where we pursue new opportunities.

01:43:17.880 --> 01:43:20.039
And as soon as we find a new opportunity, instead

01:43:20.039 --> 01:43:22.979
of figuring out a way to stabilize the benefits

01:43:22.979 --> 01:43:25.739
so that it results in a stable sense of satisfaction,

01:43:26.079 --> 01:43:29.560
for example, we fall all over ourselves to turn

01:43:29.560 --> 01:43:31.119
it into more of the same because, of course,

01:43:31.140 --> 01:43:33.140
that's how we got here. Can you give me an example

01:43:33.140 --> 01:43:42.319
of what you mean by this? Sure. Let's imagine

01:43:42.319 --> 01:43:46.500
an ancient farmer. An ancient farmer has a piece

01:43:46.500 --> 01:43:48.619
of land, and that piece of land will support

01:43:48.619 --> 01:43:51.460
a certain number of people with the level of

01:43:51.460 --> 01:43:53.979
technology that the farmer is utilizing. Somehow

01:43:53.979 --> 01:43:57.520
the farmer ends up either thinking of or discovering

01:43:57.520 --> 01:44:01.699
by watching somebody else a wheel. Now that farmer

01:44:01.699 --> 01:44:05.500
has a technology that allows him or however many

01:44:05.500 --> 01:44:07.319
people are working that farm to produce that

01:44:07.319 --> 01:44:10.470
much more food. with no more labor because the

01:44:10.470 --> 01:44:12.510
wheel allows you to transport more, for example,

01:44:12.510 --> 01:44:15.989
at one time. So now that same piece of land can

01:44:15.989 --> 01:44:18.130
support more people because it can be more efficiently

01:44:18.130 --> 01:44:22.850
farmed. That could be stabilized as a kind of

01:44:22.850 --> 01:44:27.229
success. In other words, you could turn the extra,

01:44:27.390 --> 01:44:32.229
the surplus, into a kind of persistent luxury.

01:44:33.920 --> 01:44:36.380
Yeah, a luxury, but I mean, luxury is a little

01:44:36.380 --> 01:44:38.520
bit too trivial sounding. You could turn it into

01:44:38.520 --> 01:44:42.300
a space where you use that to investigate important

01:44:42.300 --> 01:44:45.979
stuff, or you could turn it into more mouths

01:44:45.979 --> 01:44:48.359
to feed, in which case, as soon as you've produced

01:44:48.359 --> 01:44:51.119
those extra mouths that are now consuming the

01:44:51.119 --> 01:44:55.979
output of that farm, now the level of fear of

01:44:55.979 --> 01:45:00.800
starvation is right back where it was. So that's

01:45:00.800 --> 01:45:03.510
more money, more problems. Yeah, essentially.

01:45:03.689 --> 01:45:05.090
I mean, you know, well, it used to be that we

01:45:05.090 --> 01:45:08.050
produced more people. Now we produce a greater

01:45:08.050 --> 01:45:11.590
quest for consumption. But if we were smart,

01:45:11.770 --> 01:45:13.829
what we would do is we would think about the

01:45:13.829 --> 01:45:17.909
problem of how to take the gains that come from

01:45:17.909 --> 01:45:20.829
not being bumped up at the limits of a system

01:45:20.829 --> 01:45:24.189
and turn them into what we value. Well, we've

01:45:24.189 --> 01:45:27.869
done some of that. I mean, because so we've done

01:45:27.869 --> 01:45:33.640
some of that because as. What do they say? A

01:45:33.640 --> 01:45:35.819
rising tide lifts all ships. And there's certainly

01:45:35.819 --> 01:45:37.920
some truth in that. The overall standard of living

01:45:37.920 --> 01:45:41.000
has gone up so stupendously since 1895 that it's

01:45:41.000 --> 01:45:43.760
an absolute miracle. So we've done some of that.

01:45:44.000 --> 01:45:47.239
So there's another issue, back to Marx, let's

01:45:47.239 --> 01:45:50.460
say. There's another issue that we can't contend

01:45:50.460 --> 01:45:54.260
with. And one of those might be, well, imagine

01:45:54.260 --> 01:45:56.729
that... In order for society to progress, you

01:45:56.729 --> 01:45:58.949
have to allow the individual to compete in a

01:45:58.949 --> 01:46:01.609
relatively untrammeled space so that they can

01:46:01.609 --> 01:46:03.989
innovate. And then imagine that one of the consequences

01:46:03.989 --> 01:46:06.369
of that innovation is that you get these Pareto

01:46:06.369 --> 01:46:08.470
distributions developing because the innovator,

01:46:08.470 --> 01:46:11.270
or the one who's second in line to the innovator,

01:46:11.289 --> 01:46:14.270
whatever, ends up with the bulk of the spoils.

01:46:14.689 --> 01:46:18.409
So you might say, there's a cost to be paid in

01:46:18.409 --> 01:46:22.859
inequality for innovation. And then you could

01:46:22.859 --> 01:46:25.340
also say, well, too much inequality destabilizes

01:46:25.340 --> 01:46:28.720
things, which seems to be quite clear. So there's

01:46:28.720 --> 01:46:31.020
room for an intelligent conversation about that,

01:46:31.100 --> 01:46:33.600
right? Because the lefties say, uh -oh, too much

01:46:33.600 --> 01:46:35.880
inequality. And they need to be listened to because

01:46:35.880 --> 01:46:38.020
the evidence is quite clear. If you let the inequality

01:46:38.020 --> 01:46:40.939
ramp up enough, the whole system destabilizes

01:46:40.939 --> 01:46:42.760
because the people at the bottom think, fuck

01:46:42.760 --> 01:46:46.159
it, we'll just flip the system upside down. No

01:46:46.159 --> 01:46:48.460
one wants that. Like, right -wing conservatives

01:46:48.460 --> 01:46:50.760
don't want that. Because you could make a Republican

01:46:50.760 --> 01:46:52.979
argument and say, don't let the inequality in

01:46:52.979 --> 01:46:54.760
your neighborhood get out of hand, because the

01:46:54.760 --> 01:46:57.100
crime rate will skyrocket. And the empirical

01:46:57.100 --> 01:47:00.020
evidence on that is overwhelmingly strong. Inequality

01:47:00.020 --> 01:47:03.300
drives crime. Now, you can argue about why, but

01:47:03.300 --> 01:47:05.420
the fact that it does, that's not disputable.

01:47:05.539 --> 01:47:07.680
So we could have an intelligent discussion between

01:47:07.680 --> 01:47:09.420
the left and the right, and the discussion would

01:47:09.420 --> 01:47:12.020
go something like this. You need innovation,

01:47:12.180 --> 01:47:14.979
you pay for innovation with inequality. but you

01:47:14.979 --> 01:47:17.079
need to bind inequality because if it's too intense,

01:47:17.159 --> 01:47:19.140
then things destabilize. It's like, okay, we

01:47:19.140 --> 01:47:20.939
can agree on that. We've got the parameters set.

01:47:21.239 --> 01:47:24.180
Now we have to start thinking very carefully

01:47:24.180 --> 01:47:26.520
through how to do the redistribution issue, and

01:47:26.520 --> 01:47:28.460
we don't know how to do that. So you might say,

01:47:28.520 --> 01:47:30.319
well, we have a guaranteed annual income for

01:47:30.319 --> 01:47:32.060
people, which I think is a horrible solution,

01:47:32.159 --> 01:47:34.300
by the way, but it addresses the right problem.

01:47:34.720 --> 01:47:37.819
The problem is that we're hyperproductive, but

01:47:37.819 --> 01:47:40.569
the spoils go to those at the top. And some of

01:47:40.569 --> 01:47:43.090
those resources need to be funneled down to the

01:47:43.090 --> 01:47:46.010
people who have zero so that they have an opportunity

01:47:46.010 --> 01:47:47.949
to at least get to the point where they can innovate

01:47:47.949 --> 01:47:50.350
and so the whole bloody thing doesn't wobble

01:47:50.350 --> 01:47:53.689
and fall. And I would say in some sense that's

01:47:53.689 --> 01:47:57.640
what the political discussion is about. We've

01:47:57.640 --> 01:48:00.079
skittered off into these radical oversimplifications,

01:48:00.079 --> 01:48:02.319
which is something like, well, if you have more

01:48:02.319 --> 01:48:04.659
than another person, you're an oppressor and

01:48:04.659 --> 01:48:07.239
you're evil. And if you have less, it's because

01:48:07.239 --> 01:48:09.899
you're virtuous and victimized. And that's just

01:48:09.899 --> 01:48:12.420
a non -starter. So you think that there's a real

01:48:12.420 --> 01:48:14.819
problem with something like universal basic income?

01:48:15.470 --> 01:48:17.350
You think it's a horrible idea? Well, I think

01:48:17.350 --> 01:48:20.029
the idea that the solution is a basic income

01:48:20.029 --> 01:48:22.170
is not a good idea because I think the problem

01:48:22.170 --> 01:48:24.689
is deeper than that. I don't think the fundamental

01:48:24.689 --> 01:48:26.689
problem is that people don't have enough money.

01:48:26.850 --> 01:48:29.710
I think the fundamental problem is that human

01:48:29.710 --> 01:48:32.949
beings in some sense are beasts of burden. And

01:48:32.949 --> 01:48:35.329
if they're not given, if they're not provided

01:48:35.329 --> 01:48:38.109
with a place where they can accept social responsibility,

01:48:38.350 --> 01:48:40.689
social and individual responsibility in an honorable

01:48:40.689 --> 01:48:44.779
manner, they degenerate and die. That's the opiate

01:48:44.779 --> 01:48:49.460
crisis in the West right now. Men who are men

01:48:49.460 --> 01:48:53.380
don't need money. They need function. And we've

01:48:53.380 --> 01:48:55.460
got a problem. One of the problems is, for example,

01:48:55.600 --> 01:48:57.680
here's an ugly stat. I think I told you this

01:48:57.680 --> 01:49:00.760
once before. It's illegal to induct anyone into

01:49:00.760 --> 01:49:02.880
the armed forces if they have an IQ of less than

01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:07.100
83. And the reason for that is the armed forces,

01:49:07.199 --> 01:49:10.600
despite having every reason to draw the contradictory

01:49:10.600 --> 01:49:13.960
conclusion. has decided that there isn't a single

01:49:13.960 --> 01:49:16.000
thing that you can be trained to do in the military

01:49:16.000 --> 01:49:18.279
if you have an IQ of less than 83 that isn't

01:49:18.279 --> 01:49:21.899
positively counterproductive. That's 10 % of

01:49:21.899 --> 01:49:25.640
the population. And we're producing a culture

01:49:25.640 --> 01:49:28.479
that's very cognitively complex. Like, what the

01:49:28.479 --> 01:49:30.020
hell are you going to do if you can't use a computer?

01:49:30.619 --> 01:49:32.380
Like, if you can use a computer, you're at least

01:49:32.380 --> 01:49:34.260
in the game. If you can really use one, you're

01:49:34.260 --> 01:49:37.039
hyper -powerful. If you're not literate enough

01:49:37.039 --> 01:49:41.060
to use a computer, you're at zero. 10 % of the

01:49:41.060 --> 01:49:43.039
population, the conservatives say, well, there's

01:49:43.039 --> 01:49:44.920
a job for everyone if they just worked hard enough.

01:49:45.060 --> 01:49:49.399
It's like, ah, no, and increasingly no. And the

01:49:49.399 --> 01:49:51.039
liberals say, well, everyone's basically the

01:49:51.039 --> 01:49:52.640
same and you can train anyone to do anything.

01:49:52.800 --> 01:49:56.640
It's like, no, you can't. I want to go back to

01:49:56.640 --> 01:49:59.159
the inequality point here because if you look

01:49:59.159 --> 01:50:01.420
at this biologically, actually, I think it reveals

01:50:01.420 --> 01:50:06.319
a lot. Why are we, I mean, we know from careful

01:50:06.319 --> 01:50:11.149
study that people are... motivated by the degree

01:50:11.149 --> 01:50:14.109
of inequality more than they are the absolute

01:50:14.109 --> 01:50:16.770
level of well -being that they have. And there's

01:50:16.770 --> 01:50:19.850
a very good, it's tragic, but a very good evolutionary

01:50:19.850 --> 01:50:23.170
reason for this, which is if you are working

01:50:23.170 --> 01:50:25.989
on some piece of land and your neighbor has the

01:50:25.989 --> 01:50:28.189
adjacent piece of land and they're doing twice

01:50:28.189 --> 01:50:30.710
as well as you, it's because they know something

01:50:30.710 --> 01:50:34.329
you don't. And so becoming focused on what they're

01:50:34.329 --> 01:50:37.689
doing that you're not doing is a rational thing

01:50:37.689 --> 01:50:40.069
to spend your time on so you can figure out what

01:50:40.069 --> 01:50:42.229
it is that they know that you don't. In the modern

01:50:42.229 --> 01:50:45.000
environment, this is a catastrophe. Because who

01:50:45.000 --> 01:50:47.560
are your neighbors? Well, you've got some box

01:50:47.560 --> 01:50:49.640
sitting on the wall of your living room that

01:50:49.640 --> 01:50:52.199
has a totally artificial portrait of other people

01:50:52.199 --> 01:50:55.199
who may be much wealthier than you. And it's

01:50:55.199 --> 01:50:57.140
broadcasting in as if you're looking in their

01:50:57.140 --> 01:50:59.319
window, right, in the adjacent house. And so

01:50:59.319 --> 01:51:01.920
you think you're being triggered to think that

01:51:01.920 --> 01:51:03.680
you're doing something wrong that you might fix

01:51:03.680 --> 01:51:06.340
when, in fact, the solution may not be. First

01:51:06.340 --> 01:51:07.760
of all, the person on the other side of that

01:51:07.760 --> 01:51:12.060
screen may not be for real. But even if they

01:51:12.060 --> 01:51:14.199
are, they're not living in the same. environment

01:51:14.199 --> 01:51:16.899
as you. The technology is interfacing with our

01:51:16.899 --> 01:51:22.319
brains badly. So we have the perception of massive

01:51:22.319 --> 01:51:24.840
inequality. Economically, we do have massive

01:51:24.840 --> 01:51:27.140
inequality. You're arguing that the solution

01:51:27.140 --> 01:51:30.439
to this involves some sort of massive redistribution.

01:51:30.439 --> 01:51:35.079
A solution. But nonetheless, redistribution is

01:51:35.079 --> 01:51:38.020
wildly unpopular for various reasons. And so

01:51:38.020 --> 01:51:43.609
what we've got now is a situation This is speculative,

01:51:43.670 --> 01:51:46.109
but what's really happening is that austerity

01:51:46.109 --> 01:51:49.090
is being used as a threat to keep people who

01:51:49.090 --> 01:51:50.909
would otherwise rebel against the inequality

01:51:50.909 --> 01:51:55.090
in line. And my fear about this is that this

01:51:55.090 --> 01:51:57.770
is exactly the conditions that are going to trigger

01:51:57.770 --> 01:52:04.750
that tribal population against population mayhem

01:52:04.750 --> 01:52:06.369
that we were talking about at the beginning of

01:52:06.369 --> 01:52:12.390
this conversation. burst of growth that they

01:52:12.390 --> 01:52:15.470
were experiencing is now over, the natural response

01:52:15.470 --> 01:52:18.090
is to turn on those who are not as powerful and

01:52:18.090 --> 01:52:21.909
take their stuff. That this is a totally indefensible,

01:52:22.069 --> 01:52:24.750
but nonetheless biological pattern of history.

01:52:24.970 --> 01:52:27.729
And that if we want to avoid that, we have to

01:52:27.729 --> 01:52:31.149
stop sending the signals that trigger us to imagine

01:52:31.149 --> 01:52:34.789
that we've just run to the limit of the opportunity

01:52:34.789 --> 01:52:37.289
that we had discovered, and it is now time to

01:52:37.289 --> 01:52:39.130
look and see who can't defend their position.

01:52:39.350 --> 01:52:43.050
How are we sending these signals? Well, by basically

01:52:43.050 --> 01:52:49.010
failing to provide enough well -being that people's

01:52:49.010 --> 01:52:51.949
perception of the inequality is reduced to a

01:52:51.949 --> 01:52:54.750
tolerable level. That's the argument for universal

01:52:54.750 --> 01:52:57.670
basic income, right? It's certainly a strong

01:52:57.670 --> 01:53:01.840
one. It's also a good argument for equality of

01:53:01.840 --> 01:53:04.359
opportunity, right? Because people are actually

01:53:04.359 --> 01:53:07.960
not as resentful about the success of others

01:53:07.960 --> 01:53:11.180
as you might expect. They're resentful about

01:53:11.180 --> 01:53:13.939
it if they feel that the game is fixed. But they're

01:53:13.939 --> 01:53:16.000
also willing to consider the game long term.

01:53:16.100 --> 01:53:18.359
So lots of people will say, look, like, I'm stuck

01:53:18.359 --> 01:53:21.220
at not zero, I'm stuck at one. But my kids might

01:53:21.220 --> 01:53:23.760
make it to four. And that's good enough. And

01:53:23.760 --> 01:53:25.880
that's been the American dream, right? And that's

01:53:25.880 --> 01:53:29.380
a really high power antidote to inequality. It's

01:53:29.380 --> 01:53:31.840
like, well, yeah. There's some inequality. We

01:53:31.840 --> 01:53:34.020
need it to keep the generative mechanism going,

01:53:34.159 --> 01:53:36.359
but the game is fair, and you can play it too,

01:53:36.399 --> 01:53:38.079
and there's some reasonable probability that

01:53:38.079 --> 01:53:40.060
either you or someone you love will be successful.

01:53:40.380 --> 01:53:44.260
So it has to be a straight game, and that's why

01:53:44.260 --> 01:53:46.180
ethics is so important to keep this landscape

01:53:46.180 --> 01:53:48.300
stable. People can't play crooked games, and

01:53:48.300 --> 01:53:50.600
the rich shouldn't be fixing the game if they

01:53:50.600 --> 01:53:52.420
want to hold on to their money. And the problem

01:53:52.420 --> 01:53:55.939
is that some of them, although not all, some

01:53:55.939 --> 01:53:58.970
of them are fixing the game. And no one's happy

01:53:58.970 --> 01:54:02.970
about that. And no wonder, you know. And I guess

01:54:02.970 --> 01:54:05.210
that was evidenced to some degree by the 2008

01:54:05.210 --> 01:54:10.609
collapse, because it seemed, and I'm just as

01:54:10.609 --> 01:54:13.529
uninformed as the next person, so I'm capable

01:54:13.529 --> 01:54:17.289
of commenting on this. It seems from the outside

01:54:17.289 --> 01:54:20.810
that the rich disproportionately benefited from

01:54:20.810 --> 01:54:23.930
the restabilization of the economic system. And

01:54:23.930 --> 01:54:26.010
people are not happy about that. And they shouldn't

01:54:26.010 --> 01:54:27.710
be happy about that, because it indicates that

01:54:27.710 --> 01:54:29.390
there's something fundamentally rotten about

01:54:29.390 --> 01:54:31.670
the game. So you could say, well, maybe people

01:54:31.670 --> 01:54:34.130
can tolerate necessary inequality if the game

01:54:34.130 --> 01:54:36.329
isn't rigged. And so that's why everybody has

01:54:36.329 --> 01:54:38.289
to act in a manner that indicates that the game

01:54:38.289 --> 01:54:40.470
isn't rigged. And that means they can't rig it.

01:54:40.510 --> 01:54:44.470
That's really what it means. And so we're also

01:54:44.470 --> 01:54:46.630
being driven into this inequality corner by,

01:54:46.710 --> 01:54:49.350
I would say, by the postmodernists and the neo

01:54:49.350 --> 01:54:52.329
-Marxists, because they say... This is the pernicious

01:54:52.329 --> 01:54:55.069
thing. They say, well, the reason that some people

01:54:55.069 --> 01:54:57.569
have more than others is because every hierarchy

01:54:57.569 --> 01:55:01.029
is based on arbitrary power and they're all oppressors.

01:55:01.289 --> 01:55:03.130
And the reason they have the money is because

01:55:03.130 --> 01:55:06.869
they stole it from you. And there's some truth

01:55:06.869 --> 01:55:09.409
in that because there are some criminals. But

01:55:09.409 --> 01:55:11.510
when you get to the point where you fail to distinguish

01:55:11.510 --> 01:55:13.970
the productive people from the criminals, which

01:55:13.970 --> 01:55:15.930
is exactly what happened in the 1920s in the

01:55:15.930 --> 01:55:18.729
Soviet Union, you better bloody well watch out

01:55:18.729 --> 01:55:22.239
because when you... radically make things egalitarian,

01:55:22.399 --> 01:55:23.939
you're going to wipe out all your productive

01:55:23.939 --> 01:55:26.720
people, and then you're going to starve. And

01:55:26.720 --> 01:55:30.819
so that's one of the doom end scenarios that

01:55:30.819 --> 01:55:33.359
awaits us if this idiot process of polarization

01:55:33.359 --> 01:55:36.199
continues. And what I find reprehensible about

01:55:36.199 --> 01:55:38.359
the universities, and you're tangled up right

01:55:38.359 --> 01:55:40.779
up to your neck in this, is that the universities

01:55:40.779 --> 01:55:44.159
are actively agitating to produce people who

01:55:44.159 --> 01:55:46.880
believe that all inequality is due to oppression

01:55:46.880 --> 01:55:50.119
and power. And that's just... Well, first of

01:55:50.119 --> 01:55:53.159
all, it's technically wrong. But why is that?

01:55:53.159 --> 01:55:56.260
You guys both operate in that system. So what?

01:55:58.159 --> 01:56:01.880
Here's the problem. No. As far as I know, nobody

01:56:01.880 --> 01:56:04.760
has properly studied the question of what fraction

01:56:04.760 --> 01:56:09.479
of the economy is actually crooked, rent seeking.

01:56:09.619 --> 01:56:13.500
Right. Not productive. And I fear that the answer

01:56:13.500 --> 01:56:15.680
to that question is that it's an awful large

01:56:15.680 --> 01:56:18.180
fraction of the economy, not because of some.

01:56:19.420 --> 01:56:23.380
conspiracy, but because opportunity is finite,

01:56:23.460 --> 01:56:27.380
but con games aren't. And so anybody who can

01:56:27.380 --> 01:56:29.760
find a mechanism for transferring wealth from

01:56:29.760 --> 01:56:32.460
somebody else for doing nothing finds that mechanism.

01:56:32.600 --> 01:56:35.239
And that thing is ever present. Whereas discovering

01:56:35.239 --> 01:56:38.079
the next big thing that's actually productive

01:56:38.079 --> 01:56:40.500
is, you know, something that goes along and fits

01:56:40.500 --> 01:56:43.859
and starts. And so if we were... I mean, really,

01:56:43.920 --> 01:56:46.979
you've described it very well. We've got a battle

01:56:46.979 --> 01:56:51.340
between two caricatures of what's true, right?

01:56:51.500 --> 01:56:54.380
Either the market is wonderful and it's producing

01:56:54.380 --> 01:56:58.399
great stuff with very little corruption, or everything

01:56:58.399 --> 01:57:00.979
that makes people unequal is the result of corruption.

01:57:01.079 --> 01:57:04.220
Both of these things are wrong, right? Markets

01:57:04.220 --> 01:57:08.060
are marvelous engines for figuring out how to

01:57:08.060 --> 01:57:10.800
do something really well. They're brilliant at

01:57:10.800 --> 01:57:13.079
this, right? And so people who see that fall

01:57:13.079 --> 01:57:14.939
in love with it, understandably, because they're

01:57:14.939 --> 01:57:17.239
so good at it. But what they're terrible at is

01:57:17.239 --> 01:57:19.460
telling you what you should want or what you

01:57:19.460 --> 01:57:23.130
should do. If people tell markets, here's what

01:57:23.130 --> 01:57:25.409
we would like to accomplish, and then the markets

01:57:25.409 --> 01:57:27.489
tell us, well, how do we accomplish that best?

01:57:27.750 --> 01:57:30.409
That would be a very viable system that would

01:57:30.409 --> 01:57:33.710
not result in massive rent -seeking, resulting

01:57:33.710 --> 01:57:36.109
in everybody feeling that all of their misfortunes

01:57:36.109 --> 01:57:37.869
are the result of a rigged game, which is so

01:57:37.869 --> 01:57:40.229
massively rigged that when they check, they see,

01:57:40.310 --> 01:57:43.649
yes, that is actually, to a large extent, what

01:57:43.649 --> 01:57:46.229
we're suffering from. But they want to throw

01:57:46.229 --> 01:57:48.210
the baby out with the bathwater, and so they

01:57:48.210 --> 01:57:50.460
want to throw out markets entirely. you know,

01:57:50.479 --> 01:57:58.880
it would be a terrible mistake. You asked, Jill,

01:57:58.880 --> 01:58:01.500
why this has happened in the universities. I

01:58:01.500 --> 01:58:04.760
think it's one of these runaway positive feedback

01:58:04.760 --> 01:58:07.380
processes. You know, the universities start to

01:58:07.380 --> 01:58:10.380
tilt hard to the left in the 60s, and that just

01:58:10.380 --> 01:58:12.439
went out of control. And now we're at the point

01:58:12.439 --> 01:58:18.100
where that's the dominant force. Why is probably

01:58:18.100 --> 01:58:20.399
another manifestation of one of these Pareto

01:58:20.399 --> 01:58:22.600
principles. It was like, well, at some point

01:58:22.600 --> 01:58:25.399
there's enough lefties hired so that the probability

01:58:25.399 --> 01:58:27.579
that they're only going to hire people equally

01:58:27.579 --> 01:58:31.000
as left or greater starts to reach 100%. And

01:58:31.000 --> 01:58:32.920
then you iterate that across a couple of generations

01:58:32.920 --> 01:58:35.539
and you get no conservatives, which is... more

01:58:35.539 --> 01:58:37.479
or less, the situation, say, in the humanities

01:58:37.479 --> 01:58:39.760
and most of the social sciences. And it sort

01:58:39.760 --> 01:58:42.000
of looks like a conspiracy, but it doesn't mean

01:58:42.000 --> 01:58:44.180
that anyone is actually planning it, although

01:58:44.180 --> 01:58:46.380
there are conscious attempts also to silence

01:58:46.380 --> 01:58:48.920
conservative voices, let's say. And then that's

01:58:48.920 --> 01:58:52.449
also driven by this postmodern ethos. neo -Marxist

01:58:52.449 --> 01:58:54.470
ethos, I would say, that says that all of the

01:58:54.470 --> 01:58:56.529
right, the moral right, is on the side of the

01:58:56.529 --> 01:59:00.149
left. And so it's the combination of those two

01:59:00.149 --> 01:59:03.350
things. There's more things. I often think comically

01:59:03.350 --> 01:59:07.369
that if you paid sociology professors three times

01:59:07.369 --> 01:59:10.409
as much, the probability that they would be anti

01:59:10.409 --> 01:59:13.170
-capitalist would decline precipitously. I think

01:59:13.170 --> 01:59:15.130
a lot of it's driven because there's a lot of

01:59:15.130 --> 01:59:17.729
smart people in academia, and they're underpaid

01:59:17.729 --> 01:59:21.399
relative to their intelligence. And that doesn't

01:59:21.399 --> 01:59:23.659
make them happy, so they get bitter and resentful

01:59:23.659 --> 01:59:25.319
about that. And they think, well, there's these

01:59:25.319 --> 01:59:27.539
goddamn bankers who are hauling in $20 million

01:59:27.539 --> 01:59:31.479
a year, and here I am, hardly struggling, but

01:59:31.479 --> 01:59:34.079
here I am struggling comparatively, and that's

01:59:34.079 --> 01:59:37.279
the issue, is comparatively on $100 ,000 a year

01:59:37.279 --> 01:59:40.260
or $120 ,000 a year. You know, I look at that

01:59:40.260 --> 01:59:43.300
and I think, well, whatever. It doesn't matter.

01:59:43.539 --> 01:59:47.180
But my colleagues are often angry with me because

01:59:47.180 --> 01:59:49.789
I do work with the business school. You know,

01:59:49.789 --> 01:59:52.289
and I also have a business. I'm not anti -capitalist

01:59:52.289 --> 01:59:56.270
in the least. But it's just dumbfounding to me

01:59:56.270 --> 01:59:57.489
because they'll come up to me and say, well,

01:59:57.529 --> 01:59:59.229
are you so sure that you should be working with

01:59:59.229 --> 02:00:01.189
a business school? And I think, what bloody planet

02:00:01.189 --> 02:00:04.250
are you from to posit a question like that? It's

02:00:04.250 --> 02:00:06.409
all businessmen are evil. It's like, really?

02:00:06.810 --> 02:00:09.710
That's the level of your sophistication? This

02:00:09.710 --> 02:00:11.310
is really an argument that's been presented to

02:00:11.310 --> 02:00:13.689
you that businessmen are evil? Well, they don't

02:00:13.689 --> 02:00:15.550
come out and say that, but they certainly question

02:00:15.550 --> 02:00:18.250
my motivations, for example, in forming ties

02:00:18.250 --> 02:00:20.069
with the business school. Like what do they say

02:00:20.069 --> 02:00:22.750
about it? They say exactly that. They question

02:00:22.750 --> 02:00:24.949
my ethics about forming ties with the business

02:00:24.949 --> 02:00:27.850
school. But they don't give you any reasons?

02:00:28.449 --> 02:00:31.069
The reason is supposed to be self -evident, Joe.

02:00:31.609 --> 02:00:34.850
So let's give this argument its due. I mean,

02:00:34.890 --> 02:00:38.130
I don't buy this argument, but nonetheless, let's

02:00:38.130 --> 02:00:44.100
not caricature it. Yes, that's good. In an absolutely

02:00:44.100 --> 02:00:46.359
free market, which is not what we have, but we

02:00:46.359 --> 02:00:48.720
have something that tends in that direction.

02:00:49.119 --> 02:00:52.000
In an absolutely free market, if you compete

02:00:52.000 --> 02:00:56.239
two individuals, one of whom is completely amoral,

02:00:56.239 --> 02:00:58.619
will embrace any opportunity if it makes a profit,

02:00:58.680 --> 02:01:00.539
no matter what it is. And the other individual

02:01:00.539 --> 02:01:03.520
has some limit to what they will do. Well, then

02:01:03.520 --> 02:01:05.939
there's no question who wins if we give this

02:01:05.939 --> 02:01:09.029
experiment. long enough period, the individual

02:01:09.029 --> 02:01:11.590
who will do anything will out -compete the individual

02:01:11.590 --> 02:01:13.770
with moral limits because... Doesn't it depend

02:01:13.770 --> 02:01:15.449
on what the game is, though? No. Because if people

02:01:15.449 --> 02:01:18.130
find out that you have no moral limits, then

02:01:18.130 --> 02:01:20.729
they're going to remove themselves from your

02:01:20.729 --> 02:01:23.909
market. Unfortunately not. No? I know it seems

02:01:23.909 --> 02:01:26.989
like that, and in any given round, that's true.

02:01:27.130 --> 02:01:30.189
Okay. But to the extent that what you're saying

02:01:30.189 --> 02:01:34.210
is to the extent that people police... they're

02:01:34.210 --> 02:01:37.189
purchasing and they will stop using Uber if Uber

02:01:37.189 --> 02:01:41.069
is ethically compromised, for example. Well,

02:01:41.170 --> 02:01:42.810
then the point is, well, what's the game? The

02:01:42.810 --> 02:01:45.710
game is to figure out which things are being

02:01:45.710 --> 02:01:48.489
monitored and not do any of the unethical things

02:01:48.489 --> 02:01:50.670
that are being monitored, but to do all of the

02:01:50.670 --> 02:01:52.250
unethical things that aren't being monitored.

02:01:52.430 --> 02:01:55.270
And so the individual who is perceiving... which

02:01:55.270 --> 02:01:57.689
things they can get away with has an advantage.

02:01:57.869 --> 02:02:00.710
That's the psychopath advantage. Well, I don't

02:02:00.710 --> 02:02:02.409
even want to call it the psychopath advantage,

02:02:02.729 --> 02:02:06.390
right? What this is, is that a market will train

02:02:06.390 --> 02:02:09.310
you to do this if it is unregulated. And the

02:02:09.310 --> 02:02:14.470
best that the ethically restrained person can

02:02:14.470 --> 02:02:18.210
do is compete dead even. They have no way of

02:02:18.210 --> 02:02:20.189
getting ahead because the person that is completely

02:02:20.189 --> 02:02:24.930
free, the amoral... business actor has the ability

02:02:24.930 --> 02:02:27.489
to do anything that the constrained actor has.

02:02:27.609 --> 02:02:30.449
Doesn't this depend entirely upon what the battlefield

02:02:30.449 --> 02:02:33.409
is? Not really. There's sort of one exception,

02:02:33.670 --> 02:02:36.890
and that exception is people who have done something

02:02:36.890 --> 02:02:41.670
that has suddenly put them in a powerful position.

02:02:42.250 --> 02:02:46.050
Right. So tech people. Right. Tech people who

02:02:46.050 --> 02:02:48.609
have skyrocketed as a result of having innovated

02:02:48.609 --> 02:02:51.909
the next big thing have not been through the

02:02:51.909 --> 02:02:55.170
markets training them to discover the landscape

02:02:55.170 --> 02:02:58.390
of what isn't being monitored that you can make

02:02:58.390 --> 02:03:00.149
a profit. That's one of the fascinating things

02:03:00.149 --> 02:03:02.310
about tech people in general is that these gigantic

02:03:02.310 --> 02:03:05.010
tech corporations almost all lean left. Well,

02:03:05.130 --> 02:03:07.350
the gigantic tech corporations lean left. That's

02:03:07.350 --> 02:03:11.119
true. On the other hand, I mean. I hate to say

02:03:11.119 --> 02:03:12.960
it, but think about how Google started, right?

02:03:13.199 --> 02:03:16.579
Don't be evil. Right. I think they actually meant

02:03:16.579 --> 02:03:19.220
that. Right. Right. And the thing is, don't be

02:03:19.220 --> 02:03:21.479
evil is what it sounds like when you haven't

02:03:21.479 --> 02:03:24.100
been trained by the market to have to do whatever

02:03:24.100 --> 02:03:26.380
you have to do to beat your competition. You've

02:03:26.380 --> 02:03:28.220
just come up with the great search engine and

02:03:28.220 --> 02:03:32.319
suddenly you're on top of the world. But over

02:03:32.319 --> 02:03:36.130
time, what happens? that entity is now exposed

02:03:36.130 --> 02:03:38.970
to competition from a bunch of other entities

02:03:38.970 --> 02:03:42.810
that increasingly will find an advantage in being

02:03:42.810 --> 02:03:46.149
freer to do ethically questionable stuff. And

02:03:46.149 --> 02:03:49.369
so what it does is it forces an entity like Google

02:03:49.369 --> 02:03:52.609
to evolve in the direction of amorality. So now

02:03:52.609 --> 02:03:54.149
don't be evil. It kind of happened with China

02:03:54.149 --> 02:03:57.109
and Google. Yeah. Because Google wanted to expand

02:03:57.109 --> 02:03:59.550
into China. And so, you know, they had to make

02:03:59.550 --> 02:04:02.109
a deal with the devil, so to speak. Right. They

02:04:02.109 --> 02:04:04.640
had to accept censorship. They will find ways

02:04:04.640 --> 02:04:07.899
to rationalize everything because to not rationalize

02:04:07.899 --> 02:04:09.960
that which their competitors can avail themselves

02:04:09.960 --> 02:04:12.380
of would be to perish. One of the issues was

02:04:12.380 --> 02:04:15.460
there was all sorts of fake Google going on,

02:04:15.520 --> 02:04:17.859
just like they have fake Apple stores in China.

02:04:18.039 --> 02:04:20.039
They don't have the same sort of copyright laws

02:04:20.039 --> 02:04:24.689
that we have. plagiarize anything you want. And

02:04:24.689 --> 02:04:26.869
Brett, you also said that I shouldn't make a

02:04:26.869 --> 02:04:29.369
straw man of the anti -business argument of my

02:04:29.369 --> 02:04:31.369
peers. And there's another way that I shouldn't

02:04:31.369 --> 02:04:34.329
make a straw man of it. Like, despite the fact

02:04:34.329 --> 02:04:36.409
that I'm not anti -capitalist, I don't believe

02:04:36.409 --> 02:04:39.729
that every entity is a business either. And one

02:04:39.729 --> 02:04:41.270
of the things that has happened to universities

02:04:41.270 --> 02:04:43.789
that has actually... They've pathologized in

02:04:43.789 --> 02:04:46.729
a number of dimensions, but they've also pathologized

02:04:46.729 --> 02:04:49.010
along the business dimension as the administrators

02:04:49.010 --> 02:04:51.890
have become increasingly trained or drawn from

02:04:51.890 --> 02:04:54.510
the ranks of business managers. Because a university

02:04:54.510 --> 02:04:57.329
is actually not a business. It's like a church

02:04:57.329 --> 02:04:59.810
isn't a business. There are organizations that

02:04:59.810 --> 02:05:02.149
aren't businesses, that you can't just cram into

02:05:02.149 --> 02:05:04.229
the free market structure willy -nilly. And so

02:05:04.229 --> 02:05:07.859
my colleagues also object to the... to the transformation

02:05:07.859 --> 02:05:10.319
of the university into a business entity run

02:05:10.319 --> 02:05:13.399
by profit -seeking MBAs. And they should object

02:05:13.399 --> 02:05:15.539
to that because that's not what the institution

02:05:15.539 --> 02:05:18.960
is for. So there are reasons for them to be skeptical,

02:05:18.979 --> 02:05:21.100
say, of my association with the business school

02:05:21.100 --> 02:05:23.840
that aren't merely a reflection of a simplistic

02:05:23.840 --> 02:05:26.539
anti -capitalist ideology. Oh, there are lots

02:05:26.539 --> 02:05:32.079
of things that have no immunity to contact with

02:05:32.079 --> 02:05:34.609
the market. Right. What has happened to the university

02:05:34.609 --> 02:05:36.689
system is that markets have pushed it in all

02:05:36.689 --> 02:05:38.529
kinds of directions that are not healthy for

02:05:38.529 --> 02:05:42.210
the mission of the academy. And this is also

02:05:42.210 --> 02:05:44.390
true. You know, journalism isn't well done in

02:05:44.390 --> 02:05:46.630
a market either. Right. Journalism done in a

02:05:46.630 --> 02:05:48.350
market ends up telling you what you want to hear,

02:05:48.390 --> 02:05:51.890
not what you need to know. So anyway, markets

02:05:51.890 --> 02:05:53.949
are wonderful, but there's certain things they

02:05:53.949 --> 02:05:55.869
shouldn't be allowed to touch. And there are

02:05:55.869 --> 02:05:57.630
certain things that they shouldn't do, like tell

02:05:57.630 --> 02:06:01.060
us what to want. There's no magic principle by

02:06:01.060 --> 02:06:03.840
which a market knows what's healthy and what

02:06:03.840 --> 02:06:06.399
you might crave but shouldn't have. Well, that

02:06:06.399 --> 02:06:08.699
also then brings us back to another part of the

02:06:08.699 --> 02:06:13.840
conservative liberal left dilemma, which is,

02:06:13.859 --> 02:06:19.260
well, you know, to direct the market means to

02:06:19.260 --> 02:06:21.739
impose the heavy hand of the state and its potential

02:06:21.739 --> 02:06:24.500
pathologies on the market, but to leave it alone

02:06:24.500 --> 02:06:28.060
completely means that it... wanders randomly

02:06:28.060 --> 02:06:31.319
through an indeterminate landscape. And I guess

02:06:31.319 --> 02:06:33.739
part of the issue there, too, is it's sort of

02:06:33.739 --> 02:06:39.920
like, well, how do we properly balance foresight

02:06:39.920 --> 02:06:41.920
and planning, which you'd think would have some

02:06:41.920 --> 02:06:44.479
role in the construction of large -scale states?

02:06:44.600 --> 02:06:46.439
It's like, well, what do we want the landscape

02:06:46.439 --> 02:06:49.159
to look like? How do we balance that with the...

02:06:49.609 --> 02:06:52.130
sort of comprehensive computations that the market

02:06:52.130 --> 02:06:54.689
allows. And, of course, the answer to that is

02:06:54.689 --> 02:06:56.470
we have political discussions about it all the

02:06:56.470 --> 02:06:58.750
time that are untrammeled so that we can adjust

02:06:58.750 --> 02:07:01.329
the ratio between those two things as necessary.

02:07:01.569 --> 02:07:05.409
So, again, that's an argument on the side of

02:07:05.409 --> 02:07:07.590
free speech. Yeah, I mean, really, it couldn't

02:07:07.590 --> 02:07:10.350
be more important. The real answer is that both

02:07:10.350 --> 02:07:14.130
failures are frightening. Right. You really don't

02:07:14.130 --> 02:07:18.180
want a state nannying you. and over -regulating

02:07:18.180 --> 02:07:20.500
the market and taking the magic out of it. And

02:07:20.500 --> 02:07:23.300
you don't want the completely unregulated landscape

02:07:23.300 --> 02:07:26.260
where the market starts probing the minds of

02:07:26.260 --> 02:07:28.000
your children and figuring out how to sell them

02:07:28.000 --> 02:07:30.880
things that they don't have any ability to resist.

02:07:31.220 --> 02:07:34.439
You need to figure out what that path is. And

02:07:34.439 --> 02:07:37.279
it's not easy, but you can't do it in a landscape

02:07:37.279 --> 02:07:38.960
where you can't talk about the questions. And

02:07:38.960 --> 02:07:40.840
this brings us to censorship, doesn't it? Because

02:07:40.840 --> 02:07:42.659
this is a real issue with the marketplace of

02:07:42.659 --> 02:07:45.829
free ideas. When you're talking about whether

02:07:45.829 --> 02:07:50.069
it's Google or YouTube or whoever might be imposing

02:07:50.069 --> 02:07:52.890
their own morality and their own ideas on what

02:07:52.890 --> 02:07:54.430
you should and should not be able to discuss

02:07:54.430 --> 02:07:56.409
and what should and should not be monetized,

02:07:56.510 --> 02:08:01.630
you're essentially imposing these limits. Look,

02:08:02.029 --> 02:08:04.850
I've read once, and it's a very good point, that

02:08:04.850 --> 02:08:07.789
freedom breeds inequality because you're free

02:08:07.789 --> 02:08:11.069
to put as much effort as you'd like into something

02:08:11.069 --> 02:08:13.789
and you're going to get unequal results. And

02:08:13.789 --> 02:08:16.729
that if you are truly free in a free world, some

02:08:16.729 --> 02:08:18.409
people are going to do far better than others.

02:08:18.449 --> 02:08:21.250
And just based on their own input, just based

02:08:21.250 --> 02:08:23.710
on their effort, just based on the amount of

02:08:23.710 --> 02:08:26.350
focus and dedication they have, it is very unequal.

02:08:26.689 --> 02:08:29.970
I know many people that are far more dedicated

02:08:29.970 --> 02:08:32.550
than other people that I know, and they do better.

02:08:34.220 --> 02:08:36.319
well buttressed by the empirical literature.

02:08:36.539 --> 02:08:38.460
Because, well, I mentioned earlier that the two

02:08:38.460 --> 02:08:40.899
best predictors of long -term success are intelligence

02:08:40.899 --> 02:08:44.020
and conscientiousness. And what intelligence

02:08:44.020 --> 02:08:46.979
is probably something like the number of credible

02:08:46.979 --> 02:08:49.760
operations that you can manifest in a given period

02:08:49.760 --> 02:08:52.260
of time. It's something like speed. Now, it's

02:08:52.260 --> 02:08:54.220
not only that, but speed's a big part of it.

02:08:54.279 --> 02:08:56.859
So if what you're doing is working... and you

02:08:56.859 --> 02:08:59.260
can do it faster, that works better. Okay, that's

02:08:59.260 --> 02:09:02.159
pretty damn straightforward. And the next thing

02:09:02.159 --> 02:09:04.859
is, well, conscientiousness. Well, conscientiousness

02:09:04.859 --> 02:09:07.199
would be something like... how many of those

02:09:07.199 --> 02:09:09.619
cycles of effort are devoted to that specific

02:09:09.619 --> 02:09:12.760
task? And it turns out that if there's a relationship

02:09:12.760 --> 02:09:15.760
between the effort and task success, more effort

02:09:15.760 --> 02:09:19.159
is better. And so I can give you some indication

02:09:19.159 --> 02:09:21.359
of the power of that. So if you have good measures

02:09:21.359 --> 02:09:24.079
of conscientiousness and IQ, you can predict

02:09:24.079 --> 02:09:26.159
someone's success in a competitive landscape

02:09:26.159 --> 02:09:29.300
with a correlation of about 0 .6. And what that

02:09:29.300 --> 02:09:31.619
would mean is, imagine that you tried to pick

02:09:31.619 --> 02:09:38.109
people, half of the successful people, say, and

02:09:38.109 --> 02:09:39.630
you're going to be in the bottom half, you'd

02:09:39.630 --> 02:09:44.350
have a 50 % chance of making that selection correctly

02:09:44.350 --> 02:09:47.489
if you did it randomly. If you did it informed

02:09:47.489 --> 02:09:50.189
by the results of a good cognitive test and a

02:09:50.189 --> 02:09:52.670
conscientious test, you'd be right 85 % of the

02:09:52.670 --> 02:09:56.609
time. So you could say with 85 % accuracy, which

02:09:56.609 --> 02:09:59.010
of two people would be more likely to be in the

02:09:59.010 --> 02:10:02.199
top 50 %? So it's a whopping effect, and it's

02:10:02.199 --> 02:10:05.340
actually some validation for the essential integrity

02:10:05.340 --> 02:10:07.819
of our system, because we hope, given that it's

02:10:07.819 --> 02:10:10.739
essentially an open meritocracy, that smarter,

02:10:10.819 --> 02:10:12.819
hardworking people would do better. And they

02:10:12.819 --> 02:10:15.859
do. Now, other factors apply. Corruption, for

02:10:15.859 --> 02:10:18.239
example. Lots of factors apply. I mean, for one

02:10:18.239 --> 02:10:21.720
thing, wrapped up in IQ is a big question, which

02:10:21.720 --> 02:10:25.159
is how much of the differences in IQ that exist

02:10:25.159 --> 02:10:29.050
is democratizable. That is to say, how much of

02:10:29.050 --> 02:10:31.529
this is the result of environments that aren't

02:10:31.529 --> 02:10:34.130
enriching or there's lead in the water or who

02:10:34.130 --> 02:10:37.689
knows what. Not enough vitamins. Right. My sense,

02:10:37.949 --> 02:10:40.569
actually, my intuition based on what I know biologically

02:10:40.569 --> 02:10:42.989
is that a huge fraction, maybe all of it, but

02:10:42.989 --> 02:10:47.090
a huge fraction of differences in IQ is actually

02:10:47.090 --> 02:10:51.010
could be generalized. And that's part of equal

02:10:51.010 --> 02:10:53.310
opportunity. It's not an equal opportunity. See,

02:10:53.350 --> 02:10:56.010
I'm way more pessimistic about that. And that's

02:10:56.010 --> 02:10:59.409
partly because, I mean, maybe because I spent

02:10:59.409 --> 02:11:02.069
a lot of, because I'm interested in the amelioration

02:11:02.069 --> 02:11:04.090
of differences, you know. So, for example, that's

02:11:04.090 --> 02:11:06.170
why I built this future authoring program. It's

02:11:06.170 --> 02:11:08.170
like, hey, if we can figure out how to make people

02:11:08.170 --> 02:11:11.170
more effective, well, let's do it. So I scoured

02:11:11.170 --> 02:11:14.949
the literature on IQ enhancement, and it's bloody

02:11:14.949 --> 02:11:17.869
dismal, man. It's rough. It's very, very difficult

02:11:17.869 --> 02:11:20.329
to put together a cognitive training program.

02:11:20.649 --> 02:11:23.409
Like, some things have worked in a major way.

02:11:23.550 --> 02:11:26.149
Like, the fact that people aren't starving has

02:11:26.149 --> 02:11:28.989
wiped out, has moved the bottom of the IQ distribution

02:11:28.989 --> 02:11:31.489
way up over the last hundred years. That's been...

02:11:31.689 --> 02:11:34.430
like a walloping success. But a lot of the things

02:11:34.430 --> 02:11:36.670
that we hoped would work, like Head Start's a

02:11:36.670 --> 02:11:39.390
good example of that. You know, Head Start was

02:11:39.390 --> 02:11:41.390
part of the American War on Poverty and the idea

02:11:41.390 --> 02:11:45.390
was you'd give, you know, deprived kids a leg

02:11:45.390 --> 02:11:50.029
up early before they hit school and start training

02:11:50.029 --> 02:11:52.729
them cognitively earlier. And the hope was that

02:11:52.729 --> 02:11:54.829
you'd get a Pareto thing going where they'd be

02:11:54.829 --> 02:11:57.470
a little smarter in kindergarten and then they'd

02:11:57.470 --> 02:11:59.189
do a little better in grade one and that would

02:11:59.189 --> 02:12:01.479
make them do even more. Better in grade two,

02:12:01.539 --> 02:12:04.119
more better. Do better in grade two. But what

02:12:04.119 --> 02:12:08.220
happened was that the kids who went through Head

02:12:08.220 --> 02:12:10.579
Start actually did get a cognitive jump on their

02:12:10.579 --> 02:12:12.739
competitors, but all the other kids caught up

02:12:12.739 --> 02:12:14.899
by grade six. And by grade six, there was absolutely

02:12:14.899 --> 02:12:17.239
no effect whatsoever of the training program

02:12:17.239 --> 02:12:20.340
left. Now, Head Start did have a couple of benefits.

02:12:20.539 --> 02:12:24.039
One was fewer teenage pregnancies and fewer dropouts.

02:12:24.430 --> 02:12:27.149
But that was probably because the kids who got

02:12:27.149 --> 02:12:29.409
into Head Start were either socialized better

02:12:29.409 --> 02:12:32.489
or that some fraction of them were removed for

02:12:32.489 --> 02:12:36.289
some time from extremely toxic environments just

02:12:36.289 --> 02:12:38.270
while they happened to be at Head Start. But

02:12:38.270 --> 02:12:39.949
it didn't produce the cognitive improvements

02:12:39.949 --> 02:12:42.789
that everyone, right and left, were equally hoping

02:12:42.789 --> 02:12:47.810
for. Yeah, but this is, in some sense, it's very

02:12:47.810 --> 02:12:50.149
much an uncontrolled experiment, right? Absolutely.

02:12:50.149 --> 02:12:53.630
Because A, Head Start starts late. And B, it

02:12:53.630 --> 02:12:55.449
doesn't insulate you from all of the stuff that

02:12:55.449 --> 02:13:00.010
comes along with growing up in the deprived neighborhood.

02:13:00.229 --> 02:13:03.970
Oh, absolutely. We really don't know what the

02:13:03.970 --> 02:13:09.750
truth is of human IQ. And there are some results

02:13:09.750 --> 02:13:12.430
that suggest some things that are not hopeful.

02:13:12.529 --> 02:13:14.310
On the other hand, some of them just simply run

02:13:14.310 --> 02:13:19.689
afoul with... the biological realities of intelligence.

02:13:19.909 --> 02:13:23.630
Well, here's a good example of the lack of malleability.

02:13:23.850 --> 02:13:25.090
I mean, there's a couple of things. The first

02:13:25.090 --> 02:13:27.689
is that we may have already, we may already be

02:13:27.689 --> 02:13:29.829
at a point of diminishing returns in terms of

02:13:29.829 --> 02:13:33.630
eliminating individual differences in IQ because

02:13:33.630 --> 02:13:36.039
everyone has... Central heating, everyone has

02:13:36.039 --> 02:13:38.100
air conditioning, everyone has enough food, everyone

02:13:38.100 --> 02:13:40.479
has access to an infinite pool of information.

02:13:40.920 --> 02:13:42.960
So you could say even if you're in a deprived

02:13:42.960 --> 02:13:45.680
environment, but you're smart, the intellectual

02:13:45.680 --> 02:13:48.000
landscape is wide open to you. Now, I'm not saying

02:13:48.000 --> 02:13:50.159
that's the case, but you can make a case for

02:13:50.159 --> 02:13:52.800
that. But the more dismal end of the biological

02:13:52.800 --> 02:13:57.020
research on IQ shows things like... If you take

02:13:57.020 --> 02:13:59.520
identical twins at birth and you put them in

02:13:59.520 --> 02:14:03.359
adopted -out families, that the IQ of the adopted

02:14:03.359 --> 02:14:06.680
-out twins is much closer, A, to the original

02:14:06.680 --> 02:14:08.899
biological parents than to the adoptive parents,

02:14:09.100 --> 02:14:11.819
and B, almost perfectly correlated with one another,

02:14:11.920 --> 02:14:14.779
and that correlation increases as the separated

02:14:14.779 --> 02:14:18.380
twins age. So let's say you had a twin, you were

02:14:18.380 --> 02:14:21.239
both adopted out at birth. We test your IQs at

02:14:21.239 --> 02:14:24.140
four. They're fairly close. They're closer to

02:14:24.140 --> 02:14:26.100
your biological parents than your adoptive parents.

02:14:26.199 --> 02:14:27.979
But then we test you every year until you're

02:14:27.979 --> 02:14:30.939
60. By the time you're 60, no matter how long

02:14:30.939 --> 02:14:34.380
you've been separated as an identical twin, your

02:14:34.380 --> 02:14:38.039
IQ score is so much like your twin's IQ score

02:14:38.039 --> 02:14:40.140
that it's as if the same person was being tested

02:14:40.140 --> 02:14:43.159
twice. And that's a really complicated one because

02:14:43.159 --> 02:14:46.640
you think, well, as twins travel through the

02:14:46.640 --> 02:14:49.279
environment and accrue different experiences,

02:14:49.579 --> 02:14:53.210
their IQs should diverge, like obviously. That's

02:14:53.210 --> 02:14:56.109
not what happens. They converge. So there are

02:14:56.109 --> 02:14:58.409
a lot of places to critique that. For one thing,

02:14:58.430 --> 02:15:01.250
there aren't very many identical twins raised

02:15:01.250 --> 02:15:03.989
apart. It's a small sample. This is definitely

02:15:03.989 --> 02:15:06.550
true. Those identical twins raised apart carry

02:15:06.550 --> 02:15:11.170
with them whatever effects there were from before

02:15:11.170 --> 02:15:13.609
they were born. Sure, and they look the same.

02:15:13.770 --> 02:15:17.609
And so if they've been damaged by an environment

02:15:17.609 --> 02:15:20.149
that was unhealthy for their mother when she

02:15:20.149 --> 02:15:22.029
was pregnant, then they would carry that through

02:15:22.029 --> 02:15:25.819
and it would show up as... as a similar IQ later

02:15:25.819 --> 02:15:27.939
in life. So one really wants to see that this

02:15:27.939 --> 02:15:29.899
is true on the positive side, not just the negative

02:15:29.899 --> 02:15:32.779
side. So anyway, I'm not saying that there's

02:15:32.779 --> 02:15:34.920
nothing to it. I'm really saying I think we don't

02:15:34.920 --> 02:15:37.260
know. It's very early in this. But what I can

02:15:37.260 --> 02:15:39.159
say, and I think, you know, a couple of the things

02:15:39.159 --> 02:15:42.100
that we've settled on in this conversation already

02:15:42.100 --> 02:15:46.560
are that a... An environment in which we can

02:15:46.560 --> 02:15:49.840
say anything, that we can advance any argument

02:15:49.840 --> 02:15:51.739
and test it. It doesn't mean that that argument

02:15:51.739 --> 02:15:53.979
is protected, but that any argument can be advanced

02:15:53.979 --> 02:15:56.720
and then challenged, that that is inherent to

02:15:56.720 --> 02:15:58.880
navigating. And the other thing that I think

02:15:58.880 --> 02:16:01.079
we would agree on is that equality of opportunity

02:16:01.079 --> 02:16:05.460
is nothing. but good. Right. A fair game with

02:16:05.460 --> 02:16:07.739
equality of opportunity. A fair game with equality

02:16:07.739 --> 02:16:10.020
of opportunity. And I guess one thing I would

02:16:10.020 --> 02:16:11.600
add, I don't know if we would agree on this,

02:16:11.659 --> 02:16:15.779
but you were talking about the fact that, I forget

02:16:15.779 --> 02:16:18.500
which thing exactly, but that a system based

02:16:18.500 --> 02:16:22.399
on merit produces inequality because people will...

02:16:22.399 --> 02:16:24.319
Freedom. Yeah, that freedom produces inequality.

02:16:24.479 --> 02:16:27.439
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't

02:16:27.439 --> 02:16:30.800
mean that we are obligated to ride it all the

02:16:30.800 --> 02:16:34.489
way down. The fact is we could make people safe

02:16:34.489 --> 02:16:38.989
to fail so that you are encouraged to attempt

02:16:38.989 --> 02:16:43.090
to do something highly valuable. And if it doesn't

02:16:43.090 --> 02:16:46.510
work out, then the point is you're not homeless.

02:16:46.670 --> 02:16:50.309
This would be the argument for something like

02:16:50.309 --> 02:16:52.670
universal basic income, that your needs are taken

02:16:52.670 --> 02:16:55.010
care of, your food, your shelter, and now you're

02:16:55.010 --> 02:16:57.829
free to pursue any ideas that you might have

02:16:57.829 --> 02:17:00.850
that you would ordinarily be saddled down by.

02:17:01.209 --> 02:17:04.149
Your issues with food and... Well, there is some

02:17:04.149 --> 02:17:07.069
evidence of that actually happening in Canada.

02:17:07.110 --> 02:17:10.270
Now, these are multivariable problems, and so

02:17:10.270 --> 02:17:13.110
I'm not claiming that this is true, but it's

02:17:13.110 --> 02:17:16.129
suggestive. The rate of entrepreneurial activity

02:17:16.129 --> 02:17:18.569
in Canada is actually higher than in the United

02:17:18.569 --> 02:17:21.829
States. And one reason for that appears to be

02:17:21.829 --> 02:17:25.530
the fact that if you're 25, 27, let's say, and

02:17:25.530 --> 02:17:28.129
you have a family, you can quit your job and

02:17:28.129 --> 02:17:30.149
start a startup, and you don't lose your health

02:17:30.149 --> 02:17:34.780
care. Right. And so now, you know, the issue

02:17:34.780 --> 02:17:36.920
of universal health care is obviously a very

02:17:36.920 --> 02:17:38.899
thorny one. And it's not like the Canadian system

02:17:38.899 --> 02:17:41.639
works perfectly, but it doesn't work too badly.

02:17:41.719 --> 02:17:43.719
And we've been able to manage it for about 50

02:17:43.719 --> 02:17:46.639
years. You know, we have there's there's artificial

02:17:46.639 --> 02:17:49.819
scarcity in the system. And the delay times are

02:17:49.819 --> 02:17:51.719
longer than they would be if you flew to the

02:17:51.719 --> 02:17:53.719
Mayo Clinic and bought your health care. Like

02:17:53.719 --> 02:17:55.799
I would say that at the high end, the American

02:17:55.799 --> 02:17:57.739
health care system is better than the Canadian

02:17:57.739 --> 02:18:01.020
health care system. But I would say. At the middle

02:18:01.020 --> 02:18:03.180
and at the low end, the Canadian health care

02:18:03.180 --> 02:18:06.120
system is clearly preferable, and it's also cheaper,

02:18:06.319 --> 02:18:08.479
which is quite interesting, because you would

02:18:08.479 --> 02:18:10.520
expect, especially if you're a free market type,

02:18:10.680 --> 02:18:12.760
that, you know, I know the health care system

02:18:12.760 --> 02:18:14.799
in the U .S. is not precisely free market, but

02:18:14.799 --> 02:18:17.579
it is more so than it is in Canada, yet Americans

02:18:17.579 --> 02:18:19.899
pay a substantially higher proportion of their

02:18:19.899 --> 02:18:23.319
overall, devote a higher proportion of their

02:18:23.319 --> 02:18:25.500
overall GDP to personal health care than Canadians

02:18:25.500 --> 02:18:27.739
do. And the stats are similar if you look at

02:18:27.739 --> 02:18:32.149
other, you know, quasi -socialized medical systems.

02:18:32.569 --> 02:18:34.989
There's a great piece on that by Adam Ruins Everything.

02:18:35.170 --> 02:18:36.569
Have you ever seen that television show? It's

02:18:36.569 --> 02:18:38.590
really interesting. He breaks down pretty much

02:18:38.590 --> 02:18:42.209
a lot of different subjects, but breaks down

02:18:42.209 --> 02:18:44.829
the American healthcare system to pretty much

02:18:44.829 --> 02:18:47.610
where it went wrong. And I just encourage anybody

02:18:47.610 --> 02:18:49.670
to go watch it because it just shows how they

02:18:49.670 --> 02:18:51.489
elevated the price of all sorts of different

02:18:51.489 --> 02:18:54.969
things to sort of make up for a lack of profits.

02:18:55.450 --> 02:18:59.290
It's a really fascinating little piece. We are

02:18:59.290 --> 02:19:03.030
already almost three hours into this, so we haven't

02:19:03.030 --> 02:19:05.450
talked about Hitler. Oh, my goodness. Well, we

02:19:05.450 --> 02:19:07.750
kind of have. We kind of did. We kind of have.

02:19:07.809 --> 02:19:10.870
But let me just – do you want to lay out your

02:19:10.870 --> 02:19:12.610
argument about Hitler and then I'll respond to

02:19:12.610 --> 02:19:17.899
it? I don't know if I do want to. I mean, I think

02:19:17.899 --> 02:19:21.120
I actually think that I should stop because I'm

02:19:21.120 --> 02:19:23.299
kind of at the limits of I'm at the point where

02:19:23.299 --> 02:19:25.379
the probability that I will say something stupid

02:19:25.379 --> 02:19:28.500
is starting to increase. And I would rather not

02:19:28.500 --> 02:19:30.399
because just saying the things that I'm trying

02:19:30.399 --> 02:19:32.260
to say that aren't stupid is dangerous enough.

02:19:32.319 --> 02:19:34.280
Yes. This isn't the topic where you want to make

02:19:34.280 --> 02:19:36.500
that kind of. Yes. Yes. So I would say maybe.

02:19:36.540 --> 02:19:40.260
Is there a more charged subject? It's funny that

02:19:40.260 --> 02:19:42.639
it's charged because, as you point out, we're

02:19:42.639 --> 02:19:44.700
pretty much all in agreement about it, right?

02:19:44.920 --> 02:19:47.319
I mean, you find someone who's not, and they're

02:19:47.319 --> 02:19:50.340
instantly ostracized from society. Right. I mean,

02:19:50.360 --> 02:19:52.940
anybody who has an argument about Genghis Khan,

02:19:53.280 --> 02:19:56.059
I mean, there's a really fascinating take on

02:19:56.059 --> 02:19:58.540
this by Dan Carlin from Hardcore History, where

02:19:58.540 --> 02:20:00.200
he's talking about the amount of time that has

02:20:00.200 --> 02:20:02.979
passed since a horrible atrocity, and that there

02:20:02.979 --> 02:20:04.840
are people that will argue that Genghis Khan,

02:20:05.000 --> 02:20:07.739
who killed 10 % of the world's population, changed

02:20:07.739 --> 02:20:10.790
things so bad. that it literally lowered the

02:20:10.790 --> 02:20:13.510
carbon footprint of the human race while he was

02:20:13.510 --> 02:20:16.610
alive, killed some untold number of millions

02:20:16.610 --> 02:20:19.069
of people, and was responsible for their deaths.

02:20:19.190 --> 02:20:22.010
People look to him, and they find all sorts of

02:20:22.010 --> 02:20:25.290
positive things to attribute to his reign, opening

02:20:25.290 --> 02:20:27.750
up trade with China, opening up trade routes,

02:20:27.829 --> 02:20:30.670
all these different things that people have attributed

02:20:30.670 --> 02:20:35.170
to him, and that someday someone may do the same

02:20:35.170 --> 02:20:38.680
thing about Adolf Hitler. Right now, that is

02:20:38.680 --> 02:20:43.079
impossible. He certainly made that job very difficult

02:20:43.079 --> 02:20:45.799
with all of the documentation, especially the

02:20:45.799 --> 02:20:50.809
films. But let's just say the argument that I

02:20:50.809 --> 02:20:52.790
want to level, I want to be really careful to

02:20:52.790 --> 02:20:55.170
do this so that it can't be misinterpreted by

02:20:55.170 --> 02:20:57.790
anybody. I'm going to enjoy watching this. Okay.

02:20:59.229 --> 02:21:02.729
If I'm cornered, will you come out? No way, man.

02:21:02.930 --> 02:21:06.950
The knives are going out. Oh, no. Okay. So my

02:21:06.950 --> 02:21:10.549
argument from all those years ago in my paper

02:21:10.549 --> 02:21:13.010
that I did for Bob Trevers that I mentioned at

02:21:13.010 --> 02:21:17.559
the beginning. was that Hitler was a monster,

02:21:17.659 --> 02:21:21.000
as we all know. But he was a rational monster.

02:21:21.219 --> 02:21:25.680
That the program that he deployed was not what

02:21:25.680 --> 02:21:28.399
he said, mind you. What he said was wrong in

02:21:28.399 --> 02:21:31.000
many places, especially where it gets near Darwinism.

02:21:31.020 --> 02:21:34.559
It's just all tangled and broken. But what he

02:21:34.559 --> 02:21:39.680
did was rational from the point of view of...

02:21:40.690 --> 02:21:46.209
increasing the amount of resource that was dedicated

02:21:46.209 --> 02:21:51.629
to producing members of his population. And so

02:21:51.629 --> 02:21:54.850
my point is, this is the danger that we are in

02:21:54.850 --> 02:22:01.729
if we allow ourselves to imagine that genocidal

02:22:01.729 --> 02:22:05.420
impulses are... more or less gone from the world

02:22:05.420 --> 02:22:07.680
because we've all assumed we've all agreed that

02:22:07.680 --> 02:22:10.059
they're a bad thing and the point is that they

02:22:10.059 --> 02:22:13.319
exist in a latent program and at a point when

02:22:13.319 --> 02:22:19.379
you have austerity as a result of usually an

02:22:19.379 --> 02:22:23.299
opportunity that has run its course and has resulted

02:22:23.299 --> 02:22:25.500
in the population growing to fill that opportunity

02:22:25.500 --> 02:22:27.520
and suddenly there's nowhere to go because the

02:22:27.520 --> 02:22:29.780
opportunity has all been absorbed the tendency

02:22:29.780 --> 02:22:33.989
of people is to figure out who What other population

02:22:33.989 --> 02:22:36.889
is weak? And if that population is across a border,

02:22:37.069 --> 02:22:39.709
then there's some excuse for war. And if the

02:22:39.709 --> 02:22:41.530
population is within the border, then it's a

02:22:41.530 --> 02:22:44.530
genocide. But the point is that is an ever -present

02:22:44.530 --> 02:22:48.579
danger. I want to clarify one thing. Because

02:22:48.579 --> 02:22:51.059
this argument was sort of phrased as we have

02:22:51.059 --> 02:22:53.399
a disagreement about Hitler. And I would like

02:22:53.399 --> 02:22:55.479
to point out that I don't actually disagree with

02:22:55.479 --> 02:22:59.219
anything that you just said. If I remain relatively

02:22:59.219 --> 02:23:03.780
silent, I don't want it to be seen that the fact

02:23:03.780 --> 02:23:06.020
that I'm disagreeing with you means... Or that

02:23:06.020 --> 02:23:08.040
there is a disagreement means that it's a disagreement

02:23:08.040 --> 02:23:10.479
about any of that. I think the disagreement was

02:23:10.479 --> 02:23:12.780
something like, I said that Hitler was even more

02:23:12.780 --> 02:23:16.620
evil than we thought he was. And I think, correct

02:23:16.620 --> 02:23:19.120
me if I'm wrong, you're pointing out the danger

02:23:19.120 --> 02:23:22.940
of assuming that you can put Hitler in a, he

02:23:22.940 --> 02:23:25.260
was just a monster box and don't think about

02:23:25.260 --> 02:23:27.500
it anymore. And I would say I agree absolutely

02:23:27.500 --> 02:23:30.440
with that. I mean, I've studied Hitler a lot.

02:23:30.579 --> 02:23:32.760
And there's a bunch of things that you can't

02:23:32.760 --> 02:23:36.399
say about him. You can't say he was stupid. You

02:23:36.399 --> 02:23:39.639
can't say he was without artistic talent. You

02:23:39.639 --> 02:23:42.440
can't say that he was a poor organizer. You can't

02:23:42.440 --> 02:23:45.180
say that he wasn't charismatic. You can't say

02:23:45.180 --> 02:23:48.420
that he did wonders for Germany's economy in

02:23:48.420 --> 02:23:53.620
the first part of his reign. And so it's very

02:23:53.620 --> 02:23:56.899
necessary if you're dealing intelligently with

02:23:56.899 --> 02:23:59.020
a true monster that you give the devil his due.

02:24:00.000 --> 02:24:03.389
Yeah. So I think the thing that I saw in your

02:24:03.389 --> 02:24:07.049
video was your argument was that as he was losing,

02:24:07.090 --> 02:24:12.389
instead of putting the genocide on pause and

02:24:12.389 --> 02:24:16.090
winning and winning the war, winning that he

02:24:16.090 --> 02:24:19.010
he ratcheted up the genocide. I don't know if

02:24:19.010 --> 02:24:20.610
it would really be. I don't think it's necessarily

02:24:20.610 --> 02:24:23.329
fair to say that it was him that did that, although

02:24:23.329 --> 02:24:25.690
I think he had a hand in it. It does appear to

02:24:25.690 --> 02:24:28.530
me that that's what happened. Right, and my point

02:24:28.530 --> 02:24:32.909
would simply be, and again, I couldn't possibly

02:24:32.909 --> 02:24:37.309
be less sympathetic with the individual. My point

02:24:37.309 --> 02:24:39.229
is simply that from an evolutionary point of

02:24:39.229 --> 02:24:41.930
view, if your objective is coldly to increase

02:24:41.930 --> 02:24:44.090
the number of genomes that are spelled the same

02:24:44.090 --> 02:24:49.370
way that yours are on Earth, that A, he did enslave

02:24:49.370 --> 02:24:53.270
those Jews who were most fit to work in service

02:24:53.270 --> 02:24:56.180
of the German war machine. Right. That's what

02:24:56.180 --> 02:24:59.020
those camps are. Not all of the camps were work

02:24:59.020 --> 02:25:01.040
camps. But, you know, Auschwitz, for example,

02:25:01.100 --> 02:25:03.500
was both a work camp and a death camp. And so

02:25:03.500 --> 02:25:09.239
there was this tendency to enslave. So let me

02:25:09.239 --> 02:25:11.559
ask you a question about this, because, you know,

02:25:11.579 --> 02:25:14.000
I think you have to make a pretty tenuous biological

02:25:14.000 --> 02:25:16.680
argument to say that there's evolutionary utility

02:25:16.680 --> 02:25:20.799
in increasing the number of your kinsmen. Unless

02:25:20.799 --> 02:25:22.940
they're very close. But here's a slight variation

02:25:22.940 --> 02:25:24.719
of that. You tell me what you think about this.

02:25:25.760 --> 02:25:29.819
Is it reasonable to presume that a decent survival

02:25:29.819 --> 02:25:33.620
strategy is to homogenize your environment with

02:25:33.620 --> 02:25:35.920
regards to, under some conditions, to homogenize

02:25:35.920 --> 02:25:38.420
your environment with regards to racial or ethnic

02:25:38.420 --> 02:25:40.860
differences to decrease the probability that

02:25:40.860 --> 02:25:44.440
you and yours are going to be killed? Oh, yeah.

02:25:44.540 --> 02:25:47.510
Again. No defense of this, but you are right

02:25:47.510 --> 02:25:49.350
that to the extent that there's another population

02:25:49.350 --> 02:25:51.950
that's distinct, that that population, even if

02:25:51.950 --> 02:25:55.270
it is small and has little power now, might not

02:25:55.270 --> 02:25:57.270
be small and have little power later. And so

02:25:57.270 --> 02:26:01.569
undoubtedly that program is there too. But I

02:26:01.569 --> 02:26:04.190
would say that the tendency to believe that evolution

02:26:04.190 --> 02:26:07.250
only functions at the level of kin when you're

02:26:07.250 --> 02:26:09.850
talking about very close relatives, I believe

02:26:09.850 --> 02:26:12.610
is an error that is the result of the fact that

02:26:12.610 --> 02:26:16.090
evolutionists early on wished to operationalize

02:26:16.090 --> 02:26:19.409
fitness. And it's very hard to operationalize

02:26:19.409 --> 02:26:22.729
fitness across population level differences.

02:26:23.069 --> 02:26:25.870
And so they built a definition that is about

02:26:25.870 --> 02:26:28.270
immediate kin, but there's no logical reason

02:26:28.270 --> 02:26:32.450
to imagine that that peters out at the edge.

02:26:32.569 --> 02:26:37.690
Okay. So all I'm arguing is that what Hitler

02:26:37.690 --> 02:26:42.790
did was go after a population inside. his border

02:26:42.790 --> 02:26:45.209
that was more distantly related to the people

02:26:45.209 --> 02:26:47.989
who were his constituents. And then he went,

02:26:48.090 --> 02:26:51.309
obviously, after Eastern Europe and sought the

02:26:51.309 --> 02:26:55.069
future of Germany in Russia. And it took 12 million

02:26:55.069 --> 02:26:59.829
Russians to turn around the German war machine.

02:26:59.889 --> 02:27:01.290
I mean, those are military deaths. There were

02:27:01.290 --> 02:27:04.950
vastly more civilian deaths. But the point is...

02:27:05.610 --> 02:27:08.430
He did not succeed in doing what he set out to

02:27:08.430 --> 02:27:11.889
do, but he also didn't fail in the sense that

02:27:11.889 --> 02:27:15.510
he took a bunch of resources that belonged to

02:27:15.510 --> 02:27:17.389
a population that was more distantly related,

02:27:17.569 --> 02:27:21.829
and he got rid of those people. And by getting

02:27:21.829 --> 02:27:23.750
rid of them increased the amount of resource

02:27:23.750 --> 02:27:27.530
that was available to Aryans. This has nothing

02:27:27.530 --> 02:27:31.610
to do... Genes are not... interested in figuring

02:27:31.610 --> 02:27:34.450
out which genes are superior. All of the language

02:27:34.450 --> 02:27:37.870
about German superiority is nonsense. However,

02:27:38.090 --> 02:27:41.930
genes are very interested. I mean, they're obviously

02:27:41.930 --> 02:27:44.329
genes they don't think, but they act as if they

02:27:44.329 --> 02:27:46.950
are interested in replacing alternative spellings.

02:27:46.950 --> 02:27:48.729
Okay, and so part of the reason that you're walking

02:27:48.729 --> 02:27:51.889
through this, just so that the track of this

02:27:51.889 --> 02:27:56.450
remains self -evident, is to caution people against...

02:27:56.790 --> 02:27:59.530
to alert people to the fact that the sorts of

02:27:59.530 --> 02:28:03.850
programs that Hitler both ran and elicited from

02:28:03.850 --> 02:28:07.360
people are lurking in our... let's say, in our

02:28:07.360 --> 02:28:09.979
genome, in our set of biological possibilities.

02:28:10.200 --> 02:28:12.840
And we have to be very awake to that fact on

02:28:12.840 --> 02:28:15.100
an ongoing basis. They are lurking in our genomes,

02:28:15.120 --> 02:28:18.520
which does not mean that we as adults have this

02:28:18.520 --> 02:28:21.120
as a possibility. Many people will not go along

02:28:21.120 --> 02:28:24.159
with this. Other people have it lurking to be

02:28:24.159 --> 02:28:26.799
triggered. And I think what worries me is that

02:28:26.799 --> 02:28:30.299
Trump, I think very cynically, utilized this

02:28:30.299 --> 02:28:33.430
lurking program in order to... to gain office,

02:28:33.649 --> 02:28:36.270
that he played upon the fact that certain people

02:28:36.270 --> 02:28:39.129
were waiting to hear those noises. And what he

02:28:39.129 --> 02:28:42.510
said about Charlottesville, you know, again,

02:28:42.690 --> 02:28:48.149
he did not, he did not go after the white nationalists.

02:28:48.149 --> 02:28:50.489
Did you see the white nationalist response? No.

02:28:50.750 --> 02:28:53.290
Yeah, the Daily Storm had, is that what it's

02:28:53.290 --> 02:28:56.739
called? One of the white nationalist papers had

02:28:56.739 --> 02:28:59.799
a breakdown of what Trump did and that essentially

02:28:59.799 --> 02:29:01.520
at the end they were saying he didn't go after

02:29:01.520 --> 02:29:03.680
us, he didn't target us, this is very good. He

02:29:03.680 --> 02:29:06.700
was very clear that it was all sides and that

02:29:06.700 --> 02:29:08.739
he never once targeted us, didn't say anything

02:29:08.739 --> 02:29:11.659
bad about us. And then they said God bless Trump

02:29:11.659 --> 02:29:13.540
at the end of it. There's a real tricky issue

02:29:13.540 --> 02:29:17.959
there about truth, you know, because I was, because

02:29:17.959 --> 02:29:21.120
my free speech, the free speech panel that I

02:29:21.120 --> 02:29:23.729
was a part of was cancelled. I had to make comments

02:29:23.729 --> 02:29:25.729
in the Canadian media about Charlottesville.

02:29:26.030 --> 02:29:29.030
And so I really had to think about what Trump

02:29:29.030 --> 02:29:33.709
said because the fact that there is reprehensible

02:29:33.709 --> 02:29:36.590
behavior on both sides of the extremes of the

02:29:36.590 --> 02:29:41.129
distribution is true. However, truth is a tricky

02:29:41.129 --> 02:29:43.649
thing because you have to take the temporal context

02:29:43.649 --> 02:29:46.649
into account. You know, because I would say you

02:29:46.649 --> 02:29:48.790
can imagine that there are white lies and black

02:29:48.790 --> 02:29:51.899
truths. A black truth is when you use the truth

02:29:51.899 --> 02:29:54.360
in a way that isn't truthful, just like a white

02:29:54.360 --> 02:29:58.100
lie is when you lie in a way that isn't harmful.

02:29:58.399 --> 02:30:00.620
You can use the truth to wound and hurt, and

02:30:00.620 --> 02:30:02.559
what that really means is that you've misused

02:30:02.559 --> 02:30:04.520
the truth, and so it's actually a complex form

02:30:04.520 --> 02:30:08.639
of lie. But what Trump did wrong, this is independent

02:30:08.639 --> 02:30:10.559
of whether or not he was actually engaging in

02:30:10.559 --> 02:30:13.840
manipulation or deceit, was he failed to specify

02:30:13.840 --> 02:30:16.680
the time and the place for the utterance, because

02:30:16.680 --> 02:30:19.159
what he should have come out and done was said,

02:30:19.549 --> 02:30:25.469
I unequivocally denounce the white supremacist

02:30:25.469 --> 02:30:28.649
racism that emerged in Charlottesville. And then

02:30:28.649 --> 02:30:30.709
he should have shut up. And then two weeks later,

02:30:30.850 --> 02:30:33.770
he could have said, well, when we look at the

02:30:33.770 --> 02:30:36.149
political landscape as a whole, perhaps commenting

02:30:36.149 --> 02:30:38.649
on Berkeley, he could have said, it's pretty

02:30:38.649 --> 02:30:40.870
obvious that there are reprehensible individuals

02:30:40.870 --> 02:30:43.950
acting out at both ends of the extreme. But the

02:30:43.950 --> 02:30:46.389
Charlottesville week wasn't the week to make

02:30:46.389 --> 02:30:52.049
that point. And, you know, why he did that, well,

02:30:52.110 --> 02:30:54.309
it could be just ineptness, because it was a

02:30:54.309 --> 02:30:57.090
very tricky week to exactly get things right.

02:30:57.170 --> 02:30:59.629
I don't think so. I think, actually, we can look

02:30:59.629 --> 02:31:03.690
at what he did during the election, and I think

02:31:03.690 --> 02:31:05.649
we should expect that he would do exactly what

02:31:05.649 --> 02:31:09.469
he did. Well, fair enough. There's a wink and

02:31:09.469 --> 02:31:12.510
a nod to them always. Neonazis and white supremacists

02:31:12.510 --> 02:31:15.729
applaud Donald Trump's response. Yeah. See if

02:31:15.729 --> 02:31:17.729
you can see the actual, does it show the actual

02:31:17.729 --> 02:31:20.889
text of what they wrote? A quote from the editor

02:31:20.889 --> 02:31:26.409
here, right there. I've recently mentioned anything

02:31:26.409 --> 02:31:28.709
to do with us. Reporters were screaming at him

02:31:28.709 --> 02:31:30.190
in the white nationalism when he just walked

02:31:30.190 --> 02:31:36.100
out of the room. Huh. There was an actual article

02:31:36.100 --> 02:31:39.280
that they wrote on one of those websites. Trump's

02:31:39.280 --> 02:31:41.659
comments were good. That's it. He didn't attack

02:31:41.659 --> 02:31:43.340
us, just said the nation should come together,

02:31:43.420 --> 02:31:45.819
nothing specific against us. He said that we

02:31:45.819 --> 02:31:47.760
need to study why people get so angry and implied

02:31:47.760 --> 02:31:50.479
that there was hate, dot, dot, dot, on both sides,

02:31:50.639 --> 02:31:53.399
exclamation point. So he implied that the Antifa

02:31:53.399 --> 02:31:57.440
are haters. I mean, so that energized them in

02:31:57.440 --> 02:32:00.819
a way. I mean, there's no secret that they support

02:32:00.819 --> 02:32:03.239
him. You know, my friend Alonzo Bowden has a

02:32:03.239 --> 02:32:05.459
very funny quote. He's a comedian. He goes, not

02:32:05.459 --> 02:32:07.879
all Trump supporters are racist, but all racists

02:32:07.879 --> 02:32:09.200
are Trump supporters. Right, right, right, right.

02:32:09.219 --> 02:32:14.479
It's a great quote. And there's political power

02:32:14.479 --> 02:32:16.659
in that, whether or not Trump is a racist or

02:32:16.659 --> 02:32:18.940
whether it's the wink and the nod to that side

02:32:18.940 --> 02:32:21.620
that is the only wink and a nod that they're

02:32:21.620 --> 02:32:26.440
getting. Or even insufficient denunciation, which

02:32:26.440 --> 02:32:28.299
was kind of what did. And there's a Canadian

02:32:28.299 --> 02:32:30.799
journalist named Faith Goldie who got fired from

02:32:30.799 --> 02:32:36.180
Rebel Media for being. Being accused of being

02:32:36.180 --> 02:32:39.219
too cozy with Daily Stormer type, she did a podcast

02:32:39.219 --> 02:32:42.520
with Crypto. And I listened to the podcast very

02:32:42.520 --> 02:32:44.040
carefully. She was actually one of the people

02:32:44.040 --> 02:32:45.799
that was supposed to be a panelist on this free

02:32:45.799 --> 02:32:49.360
speech talk. So that put us in a real bind. Well,

02:32:49.579 --> 02:32:52.399
what happened in the podcast? Well, what happened

02:32:52.399 --> 02:32:57.299
was, in my estimation, was that she didn't properly

02:32:57.299 --> 02:33:01.780
fulfill her role as critical journalist. It was

02:33:01.780 --> 02:33:03.659
sort of like a discussion with your friendly

02:33:03.659 --> 02:33:06.260
neighborhood neo -Nazi. And what I mean by that

02:33:06.260 --> 02:33:12.819
is she didn't ally herself with any of the purported

02:33:12.819 --> 02:33:15.479
aims of the neo -Nazi people she was talking

02:33:15.479 --> 02:33:19.620
to, but I think she failed to criticize them

02:33:19.620 --> 02:33:22.200
sufficiently. She didn't ask the tough questions.

02:33:22.799 --> 02:33:29.469
Now, and that was... Well, it was a fatal error.

02:33:29.610 --> 02:33:32.489
I mean, she got fired from Rebel Media, and it's

02:33:32.489 --> 02:33:34.129
going to have terrible repercussions for her,

02:33:34.170 --> 02:33:35.989
although she may land on her feet. And Rebel

02:33:35.989 --> 02:33:38.530
Media is very conservative as well, right? Certainly

02:33:38.530 --> 02:33:41.090
by Canadian standards, yeah. Yeah, that's right.

02:33:41.170 --> 02:33:45.170
Rebel Media imploded in the aftermath of Charlottesville

02:33:45.170 --> 02:33:49.629
because of what Faith Goldie did with the Daily...

02:33:49.629 --> 02:33:52.430
It wasn't even the Daily Stormer. It was a group

02:33:52.430 --> 02:33:55.190
called Crypto, but they're associated with the

02:33:55.190 --> 02:33:57.649
Daily Stormer. So she went on there, which...

02:33:57.899 --> 02:34:01.559
I think you could make a case that that's okay

02:34:01.559 --> 02:34:03.639
as a journalist. You can go talk to neo -Nazis.

02:34:03.639 --> 02:34:06.020
But the question is, how do you talk to them?

02:34:06.120 --> 02:34:10.040
And the answer to that is, you point out their

02:34:10.040 --> 02:34:13.739
agenda. You don't allow them to masquerade as

02:34:13.739 --> 02:34:17.940
friendly, innocent people. You can't do that.

02:34:18.100 --> 02:34:22.819
And so I would say... She damned herself by insufficiently

02:34:22.819 --> 02:34:24.879
criticizing the villains. It was something like

02:34:24.879 --> 02:34:28.299
that. I'm sure you are familiar with Louis Theroux.

02:34:28.920 --> 02:34:31.340
No, I'm not, actually. Louis Theroux, the documentarian.

02:34:31.360 --> 02:34:33.500
Do you know him from England? Fascinating guy.

02:34:33.659 --> 02:34:36.950
Fantastic. One of the best. And one of the things

02:34:36.950 --> 02:34:40.350
that he's done is, well, he's interviewed a ton

02:34:40.350 --> 02:34:42.069
of different people, but one of the great ones

02:34:42.069 --> 02:34:43.989
that he did was the Westboro Baptist Church.

02:34:44.170 --> 02:34:47.069
And he sort of embedded himself with them and

02:34:47.069 --> 02:34:53.129
was very congenial and very kind and unthreatening

02:34:53.129 --> 02:34:56.110
and stayed with them for long periods of time,

02:34:56.190 --> 02:34:59.510
like weeks on end, and got them to eventually

02:34:59.510 --> 02:35:06.159
expose who they were and understand. from the

02:35:06.159 --> 02:35:09.819
point of view of an insider, in a sense, without

02:35:09.819 --> 02:35:12.379
necessarily condemning them, but with just constantly

02:35:12.379 --> 02:35:15.139
asking questions, but being very, very polite

02:35:15.139 --> 02:35:18.579
about it. Not like a bunch, not like a lot of

02:35:18.579 --> 02:35:21.899
serious... like confrontational criticism, rather,

02:35:21.979 --> 02:35:25.600
but a very friendly, sort of polite, British

02:35:25.600 --> 02:35:28.920
way of discussing things. And he's particularly

02:35:28.920 --> 02:35:32.399
good at embedding himself. He did it with Scientology.

02:35:32.420 --> 02:35:33.879
He's done it with a bunch of different groups.

02:35:34.020 --> 02:35:36.479
He embeds himself and just sort of... Right,

02:35:36.479 --> 02:35:39.399
so there's a justification for attempting that

02:35:39.399 --> 02:35:42.260
sort of thing, clearly. Yes, yes. And I really

02:35:42.260 --> 02:35:44.299
had to think this through because, well, what

02:35:44.299 --> 02:35:46.899
happened with our talk was... It was so Hall

02:35:46.899 --> 02:35:50.000
of Mirrors -like. It was a talk about free speech

02:35:50.000 --> 02:35:52.600
talks being shut down on campus that was shut

02:35:52.600 --> 02:35:57.799
down by a campus. And it was a panel of people

02:35:57.799 --> 02:36:00.260
who purport to support free speech who knocked

02:36:00.260 --> 02:36:03.239
someone off the panel because of something, well...

02:36:03.440 --> 02:36:05.620
Not precisely that she said, but it's close enough

02:36:05.620 --> 02:36:08.399
to make the irony rather palpable. It is. So

02:36:08.399 --> 02:36:11.319
I had to go through what happened with Faith

02:36:11.319 --> 02:36:14.059
very carefully to figure out what the right ethical

02:36:14.059 --> 02:36:16.739
pathway was, you know. But I listened to the

02:36:16.739 --> 02:36:18.620
podcast very carefully. I listened to it with

02:36:18.620 --> 02:36:20.780
my son, and we talked about it a lot. And our

02:36:20.780 --> 02:36:25.399
conclusion was that she had failed to, she had

02:36:25.399 --> 02:36:29.500
failed to, she didn't ask enough tough questions.

02:36:29.739 --> 02:36:32.149
One would have done it, even, maybe. Two would

02:36:32.149 --> 02:36:35.110
have done it for sure. But the discussion was

02:36:35.110 --> 02:36:39.209
too cordial. And it could have even been cordial,

02:36:39.209 --> 02:36:40.969
to your point, because maybe that would have

02:36:40.969 --> 02:36:42.850
led to more discussions. But it should have been

02:36:42.850 --> 02:36:46.569
cordial with one snake bite. But is she required

02:36:46.569 --> 02:36:49.110
to make that snake bite? Well, it depends on

02:36:49.110 --> 02:36:51.309
what you mean by required. Well, my thought is

02:36:51.309 --> 02:36:54.110
to find out what these people really want and

02:36:54.110 --> 02:36:57.790
we're really trying to achieve. Sometimes you

02:36:57.790 --> 02:36:59.489
don't have to be confrontational with them. You

02:36:59.489 --> 02:37:01.350
just got to allow them to be comfortable. And

02:37:01.350 --> 02:37:04.149
Kamau Bell did that really great on his CNN show

02:37:04.149 --> 02:37:07.090
with the KKK. He sort of just allowed them to

02:37:07.090 --> 02:37:09.309
be themselves. And they became more and more

02:37:09.309 --> 02:37:10.950
comfortable with him the more time they spent

02:37:10.950 --> 02:37:11.909
with him to the point where they're actually

02:37:11.909 --> 02:37:17.040
joking around with him. The ugliness was so obvious

02:37:17.040 --> 02:37:19.860
and evident. And without him confronting them

02:37:19.860 --> 02:37:22.260
on it, without him yelling and arguing, you got

02:37:22.260 --> 02:37:24.680
to see it from him just being friendly and joking

02:37:24.680 --> 02:37:27.239
around with them. Now, nobody would ever accuse

02:37:27.239 --> 02:37:31.399
a black man like Kamau Bell with being a sympathizer

02:37:31.399 --> 02:37:34.739
with the KKK. He was in this inarguable position.

02:37:34.879 --> 02:37:38.040
Like, no one could accuse him of it. This woman,

02:37:38.100 --> 02:37:40.780
I'm assuming, is white. That's where the problem

02:37:40.780 --> 02:37:43.959
lies. One of many problems. She was a black woman

02:37:43.959 --> 02:37:46.639
in the very same situation like Oprah was in

02:37:46.639 --> 02:37:49.280
the past, like Oprah interviewed the KKK in the

02:37:49.280 --> 02:37:53.159
past. And she was never accused of being like

02:37:53.159 --> 02:37:56.020
somehow or another a sympathetic person to them.

02:37:56.079 --> 02:38:00.440
Right. And somehow we have to raise the threshold

02:38:00.440 --> 02:38:03.670
of offense. There are lots of ways to contribute

02:38:03.670 --> 02:38:06.309
to the conversation. One of them may be to embed

02:38:06.309 --> 02:38:09.530
yourself and actually allow the world to see

02:38:09.530 --> 02:38:12.489
people who are doing something abhorrent in the

02:38:12.489 --> 02:38:15.069
way that they see themselves so you can understand

02:38:15.069 --> 02:38:17.350
it. Just being there asking questions. Right.

02:38:17.690 --> 02:38:19.629
You don't necessarily have to be. What are you

02:38:19.629 --> 02:38:21.309
going to change them? I mean, being critical

02:38:21.309 --> 02:38:23.190
to them. I mean, just getting in arguments with

02:38:23.190 --> 02:38:25.350
them. I mean, you might be able to see something

02:38:25.350 --> 02:38:27.930
from that, from their response to like rational

02:38:27.930 --> 02:38:30.549
discussion about their issues. This brings us

02:38:30.549 --> 02:38:32.750
down a whole other rabbit hole, which maybe we

02:38:32.750 --> 02:38:34.329
could talk about at some point in the future,

02:38:34.370 --> 02:38:36.469
because this is a really interesting topic. You

02:38:36.469 --> 02:38:38.170
know, like part of the reason that I've been

02:38:38.170 --> 02:38:41.209
accused of being on the far right, say, or on

02:38:41.209 --> 02:38:43.889
the alt right, is because I've talked to people,

02:38:43.969 --> 02:38:47.579
talked with people who perhaps have. are closer

02:38:47.579 --> 02:38:50.399
what would you say have an association network

02:38:50.399 --> 02:38:53.100
that might be more closely allied with that than

02:38:53.100 --> 02:38:55.180
people are comfortable with but my attitude has

02:38:55.180 --> 02:38:57.719
been too it's and and i don't want to talk about

02:38:57.719 --> 02:38:59.659
this in much detail because it's really complicated

02:38:59.659 --> 02:39:04.840
but the the the anti -left spectrum let's say

02:39:04.840 --> 02:39:08.799
is very confused and it could easily tilt very

02:39:09.280 --> 02:39:12.180
rapidly into the hard right anti -left, which

02:39:12.180 --> 02:39:15.180
is the danger that you were describing. And partly

02:39:15.180 --> 02:39:17.260
what I'm hoping is that I can talk to people

02:39:17.260 --> 02:39:20.079
who might conceivably be on that developmental

02:39:20.079 --> 02:39:22.840
pathway because they're tired of being accused

02:39:22.840 --> 02:39:25.280
of implicit racism, let's say, and say, look,

02:39:25.479 --> 02:39:29.899
you can be anti -radical left without falling

02:39:29.899 --> 02:39:32.770
all the way into the... to the far right and

02:39:32.770 --> 02:39:34.629
here's how you might do it but that means i have

02:39:34.629 --> 02:39:36.510
to talk to them and then if i talk to them that

02:39:36.510 --> 02:39:38.850
means i risk association with them and that risks

02:39:38.850 --> 02:39:42.309
being tainted it's a very tricky line to walk

02:39:42.309 --> 02:39:45.170
but it's also one of the one of the big problems

02:39:45.170 --> 02:39:48.829
with this hard stance of the of the left of the

02:39:48.829 --> 02:39:52.540
hard left like This Pepe the Frog thing. One

02:39:52.540 --> 02:39:55.040
of the things that I tweeted was some guy that

02:39:55.040 --> 02:39:57.700
called me, you just admitted you're a Nazi because

02:39:57.700 --> 02:40:01.100
I posted a meme that someone had created of me

02:40:01.100 --> 02:40:03.620
as Pepe the Frog. And apparently it's Pepe the

02:40:03.620 --> 02:40:06.200
Frog of everybody. And so this guy was like,

02:40:06.340 --> 02:40:08.020
well, you just admitted you're a Nazi. And I'm

02:40:08.020 --> 02:40:10.559
like, see, this is a part of the problem. And

02:40:10.559 --> 02:40:13.340
this creates a massive blowback. People are getting

02:40:13.340 --> 02:40:15.639
angry because that frog, for the most part, is

02:40:15.639 --> 02:40:18.989
used humorously. Actually, you used the phrase

02:40:18.989 --> 02:40:22.149
defensive humor when you were talking. And it

02:40:22.149 --> 02:40:25.049
really is. And I think, I mean, this is, I didn't

02:40:25.049 --> 02:40:27.850
mean to interrupt you, Joe, but there's something

02:40:27.850 --> 02:40:31.049
about the idea that the effectiveness of this

02:40:31.049 --> 02:40:34.229
meme is that it tangles people with no sense

02:40:34.229 --> 02:40:38.090
of humor in knots. And that's a huge part of

02:40:38.090 --> 02:40:39.770
why those things are generated. That's why they

02:40:39.770 --> 02:40:41.549
like it. That's exactly right. They love it.

02:40:41.709 --> 02:40:46.280
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm fearing that I'm saying

02:40:46.280 --> 02:40:48.340
something about this frog and that there's going

02:40:48.340 --> 02:40:50.139
to be something that's going to emerge that I

02:40:50.139 --> 02:40:51.899
should know about that somehow I'm admitting

02:40:51.899 --> 02:40:54.219
something. But all I'm saying is what I see is

02:40:54.219 --> 02:40:57.040
a lot of people using it to taunt people who

02:40:57.040 --> 02:40:59.979
can't figure out. I think that's the vast majority

02:40:59.979 --> 02:41:02.360
of it. I do believe that. And I think the same

02:41:02.360 --> 02:41:04.899
thing about the Kekistani types is that that's

02:41:04.899 --> 02:41:07.709
almost all humor. Yeah, and there's a massive

02:41:07.709 --> 02:41:10.290
problem with pushing back against that and calling

02:41:10.290 --> 02:41:12.909
those people Nazis and racists, especially when

02:41:12.909 --> 02:41:14.729
they're just using humor, and especially when

02:41:14.729 --> 02:41:17.190
it's very clear if you look at all the memes

02:41:17.190 --> 02:41:19.809
online, and I went thoroughly through Google

02:41:19.809 --> 02:41:21.829
to find them. There are some abhorrent ones.

02:41:21.969 --> 02:41:23.809
There are some horrible ones. There are some

02:41:23.809 --> 02:41:26.989
ones that are with Nazi uniforms. There are some

02:41:26.989 --> 02:41:30.030
anti -Jew ones. There are some horrific ones.

02:41:30.510 --> 02:41:33.069
Most of them are not that. Most of them. The

02:41:33.069 --> 02:41:36.899
vast majority of them are humorous. And again,

02:41:36.959 --> 02:41:38.920
these people are not coordinating. So if one

02:41:38.920 --> 02:41:41.559
person decides to make a Mickey Mouse racist

02:41:41.559 --> 02:41:44.500
meme, which, by the way, a lot of the early Mickey

02:41:44.500 --> 02:41:47.139
Mouse cartoons, you could just take a screenshot

02:41:47.139 --> 02:41:50.479
and they're fucking. tremendously racist because

02:41:50.479 --> 02:41:53.020
dealing with the sign of the times. I mean, images

02:41:53.020 --> 02:41:56.120
of black people that were extremely cartoonish,

02:41:56.139 --> 02:41:59.000
you know, giant lips, black faces, the whole

02:41:59.000 --> 02:42:02.520
deal. Horribly racist. You could say Mickey Mouse

02:42:02.520 --> 02:42:04.840
is fucking racist. Don't go to Disneyland. No

02:42:04.840 --> 02:42:06.739
one's saying that, right? But they could. And

02:42:06.739 --> 02:42:08.659
this is the slippery slope. You start with the

02:42:08.659 --> 02:42:11.719
frog, you know? And, you know, first they came

02:42:11.719 --> 02:42:13.399
for Pepe and I didn't say anything. Yeah, well,

02:42:13.420 --> 02:42:15.639
if the frog is racist, you start wondering what

02:42:15.639 --> 02:42:17.420
isn't racist. Exactly. Because it's a bloody

02:42:17.420 --> 02:42:20.379
cartoon frog. Well, you can make a cartoon about

02:42:20.379 --> 02:42:23.200
everything that has ever existed and make that

02:42:23.200 --> 02:42:26.149
racist. it doesn't mean that the frog is racist.

02:42:26.389 --> 02:42:28.790
This is where it's crazy. It's like, what percentage

02:42:28.790 --> 02:42:31.430
of people are making the frog racist? And then

02:42:31.430 --> 02:42:33.389
for the Southern Poverty Law Center to say that

02:42:33.389 --> 02:42:35.909
this is a symbol of hate now, this frog, well,

02:42:35.989 --> 02:42:38.329
guess what? You just back these fucking people

02:42:38.329 --> 02:42:40.790
up against the wall and you shored their offenses

02:42:40.790 --> 02:42:42.770
because now they're realizing, oh, well, these

02:42:42.770 --> 02:42:45.930
people are mad. They're not just mad like angry,

02:42:45.989 --> 02:42:49.069
but mad like insane. Like you're not looking

02:42:49.069 --> 02:42:50.889
at this thing rationally at all. You're saying

02:42:50.889 --> 02:42:54.209
that a frog where 99 % of the memes are just

02:42:54.209 --> 02:42:57.750
humorous or silly. Now the frog is a hate symbol.

02:42:57.950 --> 02:43:02.270
Not only a hate symbol, but Nazi white supremacist.

02:43:02.270 --> 02:43:06.790
I mean, they're just drawing up all of the space

02:43:06.790 --> 02:43:10.409
between their preposterous perspective and the

02:43:10.409 --> 02:43:12.350
nightmare at the other end of the spectrum. And

02:43:12.350 --> 02:43:15.260
the point is. Almost all of us live in that intermediate

02:43:15.260 --> 02:43:19.180
space. Almost all thoughts live in that intermediate

02:43:19.180 --> 02:43:23.100
space. There's a variability of all thoughts.

02:43:23.260 --> 02:43:27.059
There's flexibility of all ideas. And when you're

02:43:27.059 --> 02:43:29.799
talking about something where it's extremely

02:43:29.799 --> 02:43:32.100
humorous, you're talking about a humorous frog.

02:43:33.040 --> 02:43:36.319
I mean, goddamn, to call that all hate when sometimes

02:43:36.319 --> 02:43:39.040
it's hate. And by who? By whoever the fucking

02:43:39.040 --> 02:43:42.360
people are that did that hateful thing. Those

02:43:42.360 --> 02:43:45.000
are the people that are hateful, not the other

02:43:45.000 --> 02:43:47.840
ones that are using that frog for humor. I mean,

02:43:47.860 --> 02:43:51.280
the fact that this is an argument at all just

02:43:51.280 --> 02:43:54.739
shows how lost we are in these ideological arguments,

02:43:54.879 --> 02:43:58.299
this left versus right extreme end of the spectrum

02:43:58.299 --> 02:44:00.920
on one end of the field throwing rocks at the

02:44:00.920 --> 02:44:03.639
far end of the field. Yeah. Most of us are in

02:44:03.639 --> 02:44:06.579
the middle somewhere. It's hopeless if we cannot

02:44:06.579 --> 02:44:08.200
have discussions in the middle. About a frog.

02:44:08.440 --> 02:44:12.319
Yeah. About a cartoon frog. A cartoon frog. I

02:44:12.319 --> 02:44:15.459
mean, Jesus Christ. It's so weird. That's a nice

02:44:15.459 --> 02:44:19.120
conclusion. Yeah. It might be. It might be. Listen,

02:44:19.219 --> 02:44:21.950
this was a lot of fun. It always is. And I'm

02:44:21.950 --> 02:44:23.610
glad you guys came up with this idea, and I'm

02:44:23.610 --> 02:44:25.110
glad we had the time to do it. Yeah, me too,

02:44:25.250 --> 02:44:26.850
man. It was fantastic. Thanks for the invitation.

02:44:26.989 --> 02:44:29.889
My pleasure. Really good to meet you. Jordan

02:44:29.889 --> 02:44:31.969
Peterson, what is your Twitter handle again?

02:44:32.389 --> 02:44:35.010
JordanBPeterson. JordanBPeterson, yep. And Brett

02:44:35.010 --> 02:44:38.350
Weinstein. Brett Weinstein on Twitter. Weinstein,

02:44:38.489 --> 02:44:40.110
I've been saying Weinstein. It doesn't matter.

02:44:40.170 --> 02:44:41.069
You're not the first. Is it interchangeable?

02:44:41.530 --> 02:44:45.069
Sorry. Sort of. Sort of. All right. But thank

02:44:45.069 --> 02:44:46.530
you guys. Really appreciate it. A lot of fun.

02:44:46.649 --> 02:44:51.379
Yep. Good to see you again. Bye, everybody. Jesus

02:44:51.379 --> 02:44:51.719
Christ.