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"Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #970. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Evolutionary Biology, Social Systems Analysis, and the Psychology of Institutional Dynamics."
Four. All right, we're live. Brett, first of

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all, thanks for doing this. Appreciate it, man.

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Very glad to be here. You look great. Despite

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all this pressure, you're smiling. For people

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that don't know what's going on, let's lay out

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all the events that have transpired. Essentially,

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you were being asked to step away from your college.

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For a day? Is that what it was? Is it one day?

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Well, this goes back farther than that. Yeah.

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Let's lay out the whole thing. Okay. So we couldn't

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possibly lay out the whole thing. Well, it's

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just for people that have no idea what's going

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on. Right. They're listening right now and they're

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like, who's this Brett Weinstein guy? So the

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core of it. surrounds a tradition that we have

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at Evergreen called Day of Absence. And this

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tradition stretches back long before I was ever

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at the college. I've been there 15 years. This

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tradition stretches back into, I think, the early

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70s. And it's built around a play written by

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Douglas Turner Ward, a black playwright. And

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the play portrays events in a fictional town

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where the black population decides not to show

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up one day. in order to emphasize their roles

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in the town that the white population is unaware

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of. And as you would imagine, all hell breaks

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loose. So anyway, it's an excellent play, and

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some early faculty at our college decided that

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we should have a day that mirrored this event,

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and that originally black faculty and students,

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and then later people of color, would leave campus

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for a day to emphasize the role that they play

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in our community, and then they would later...

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The tradition was amended and had a day of presence

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added to it where people would come back to campus.

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And this has been going on, as I said, since

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the 70s and the whole time I've been there. And

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then this year, it was announced by the organizing

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committee that the situation would be reversed.

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And they asked white students, staff, and faculty

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not to come to campus. And that did not at all

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sit well with me. as I said in my letter to the

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person who had announced this, Rashida, who I

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should say is staff, and she has ended up at

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the center of this controversy, I think, wrongly,

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just because my letter in response is addressed

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to her, and then it was made public by our school

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paper, so her name has been dragged front and

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center. But in any case, my letter, I said that

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there was all the difference in the world. between

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a population deciding to absent themselves from

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a shared space in order to highlight their role

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and a population deciding to absent another population

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from a shared space, which I find unacceptable

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as a person, as somebody devoted to the gains

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of the civil rights movement. I just, and I should

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also probably say as a Jew, when people start

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telling me where I can and cannot be, it... It

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rings alarm bells. So that's the gist of the

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story. And the letter caused quite a stir amongst

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student staff and faculty who responded, many

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of them quite angrily. Privately, of course,

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people were much more divided on the matter,

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and there were plenty of people who agreed with

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my letter. But publicly speaking, there was condemnation

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of the letter. But the event itself, Day of Absence,

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was mostly uneventful. I did go to campus, as

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I said I would in my letter, and I actually,

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it's neither here nor there, it was accidental,

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but while I was on campus, I ran into a student

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that I know very well, actually a student that

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my wife and I were abroad in Ecuador with last

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year. We were teaching abroad, and we had 30

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students with us, and so one of the students

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who had traveled with us to Ecuador happened

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to be on campus too. This is a student of color.

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I'm going to stop this. Sorry. That's all right.

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That was going to go on. That was going to drive

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me crazy. Right. I understand. Let's keep going.

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So I ran into this student that I know well and

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care about quite a bit. had a very nice conversation,

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mostly not about Day of Absence. As a matter

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of fact, I can't even remember if we did talk

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about Day of Absence. But there was something

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poignant to me about the fact that while I was

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being condemned for refusing to accept this new

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formulation, that I was able to meet with a student

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who is important to me, and neither of our racial

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backgrounds is primary in our relationship. know

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each other as people. And that's really how I

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would like to see all of us interacting on campus.

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We all have our backgrounds. They matter to us.

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But it can it cannot become the primary interface

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between us. Let me stop you here and let me try

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to understand what the reaction was, because

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you rightly said that you think there's a huge

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problem with asking people to not show up simply

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based on their color of their skin. Exactly.

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And what was the argument against that? When

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you said that, and I read your letter, and your

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letter didn't sound racist at all. It sounded

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very well thought out. It made a very good point.

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But the response, the inflammatory response to

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your letter was so disturbing and shocking. Was

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there anyone who had reasonable debate with you

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about this? Was there anyone who said, well,

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we should take into consideration why they're

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asking us to do this? We should sit down with

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them. We should talk through this. Was there

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anything reasonable or was it just dig your heels

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in the sand and then let the insults and the

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white privilege and all these accusations fly?

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Well, like I said, there's a huge difference

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that you can't see unless you're at the center

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of one of these things between the public discussion

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and the private discussion. Privately, I had

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very interesting discussions with many people

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that was not absent. But if you were to look

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in on the discussion at the public level, it

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looked as if there was consensus united against

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me. Now, when you say public and private, are

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the same people making contradictory statements

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in public that are commiserating with you in

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private, or is it just different people? A few

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of them do that. That actually is the thing I

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find most surprising, is that sometimes people

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will privately say one thing to you and then

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publicly do another. Mostly it's different people.

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And I should say the people who have talked to

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me privately and expressed concerns are actually

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quite a diverse group. So it's not as if white

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folks are disturbed by this and people of color

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are united. It's not at all like that. But part

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of the hidden story here is that in order to

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advance certain policy proposals, it has to appear.

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that the community is united behind them, and

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that anybody who stands against them is standing

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against them for illegitimate reasons. So that

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means that the number of people who are willing

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to express any sort of nuance about what's taking

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place has to be small, and they have to be dismissible.

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So what they did is they called me a racist,

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which is ironic because I'm an anti -racist.

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I've gone out of my way to... first of all, study

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the question of why racism occurs. And I've,

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I believe, been pretty courageous in fighting

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against it where I've run into it. So to challenge

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me with that particular epithet was a mistake

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on their part. It was a strategic mistake. And

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I kept trying to tell them while this was still

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internally being discussed in the college, I

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kept trying to tell them that they should really

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check the concept that I'm a racist. They should

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ask. Because if they did, they would discover

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that they were actually way off the mark, and

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then they would have an interesting puzzle on

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their hands. Then they would have to explain

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to themselves why they had found themselves hurling

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this most poisonous term at somebody who not

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only isn't a racist, but is pretty nearly the

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opposite. Well, it's a standard maneuver when

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someone wants to silence someone. When someone

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wants to put someone in a category that's instantly

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recognizable, one of the best ones is racist.

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Oh, absolutely. And what I found is that people

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simply could not figure out what they would do

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if that term was applied to them. Right. They

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were able to preview in their minds what that

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would be like. And so many people could see that

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there was no escape for them. Right. It's like

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being called a rapist almost. It's like even

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if you are exonerated, there's still that cloud

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hanging above you. Yes, but this also actually

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points to something pretty important. And for

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anybody who travels this ground themselves, they're

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going to discover this, that many of the terms

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that are being used have been redefined, but

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they haven't been fully redefined. So one of

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the things that I've seen in several places is

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that a term like racist has been redefined so

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that the bar. for being a racist is so low that

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you couldn't possibly help but trip over it.

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But then once you've tripped over it and you

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have accepted that you are a racist, then the

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stigma goes back to the original definition.

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So it is the dodging and weaving between the

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two definitions that actually does the heavy

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lifting. Well, there's also a really disturbing

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idea that's being bounced around lately that

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it's impossible to be racist if you're anything

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other than white. Right. Which is ridiculous.

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It's preposterous. Anybody who looks up the actual

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definition of racism will discover that that's

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preposterous. But yes, that does pass in certain

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places as logical. Yeah. And just it's parroted

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in this very bizarre way that's supposed to be

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unchallenged. And this is a fairly recent thing.

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I mean, this is not something that existed two

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decades ago. Right. I agree. And the. pace at

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which it's moving in the last few years is very

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surprising. It is surprising, but it kind of

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makes sense because you get into these groups

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of people. They have this confirmation bias.

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They lump up together and they all reinforce

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their ideas in this echo chamber. And they all

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do it inside the colleges. And then when it gets

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out to the rest of the world, as we're seeing

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with your case at Evergreen, the rest of the

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world is like, what is going on over here? Like,

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what is happening in school? And people who are

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sending their children off to school are very

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concerned with the indoctrination of these ideas

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and the adopting these very rigid mindsets that

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the rest of the world just simply could pick

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apart pretty quickly well this is the most shocking

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thing because i'm you know i'm i haven't been

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censured I haven't been suspended. I'm still

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on the email distribution list. So I'm watching

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the traffic inside of my college, and I'm able

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to compare it to the huge flood of stuff that

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I'm seeing from the outside world as they get

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wind of what's going on at Evergreen. And the

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difference is a million miles. Inside of Evergreen,

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actually, we are descending further into madness.

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The faculty are blaming the... The fact that

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the campus had to be suddenly closed due to a

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threat from the outside yesterday on me for having

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talked about this in the outside world specifically.

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It's hilarious. Not to you. I can't use that

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term yet. To me. Hopefully someday. I hope it's

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soon. And, you know, I must say one thing that

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I don't know. We haven't even talked about where

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this where I got thrust into the spotlight here,

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which you're. Listeners are going to have to

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know in order to understand why I'm even sitting

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here. But the intensity and the out -of -touch

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nature of the discussion inside the college simply

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reinforces the impression that something is desperately

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off, that what we really have is a filter bubble

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that is so... so strong that even when the world

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sends very clear evidence that you've missed

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something somewhere and it's time to rethink

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what you've been doing, they're not waking up.

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And I love this college. This college, maybe

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we'll get to talk about it, but... The structuring

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of this college is so unusual, and what one can

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do as a professor at Evergreen, if you're really

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dedicated to teaching, it is the place to be

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because you have unparalleled pedagogical freedom,

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more freedom than you'd have as a tenured professor

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at Harvard. And you also have room to teach individually

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to students because... Our students take one

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program at a time. They're full -time in one

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program, and the professors teach one program

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at a time, full -time, and they can go on for

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a full year. So imagine you've got 25 students,

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and you have them for a year, full -time. You

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really know every student in your class individually,

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not just by name, but you know how they think,

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you know their backgrounds, you know their blind

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spots, and that allows for a kind of teaching

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that can't be done anywhere else. Quite distressed

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at the fact that Evergreen is now endangered

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by what's going on. And I really would like to

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see it wake up and rescue itself because it is

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worth rescuing. I watched the is it the president

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of the school who gave the speech addressing

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all these issues? George Bridges. It looked like

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a hostage negotiation. It looked like he had

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a gun to his head. He was literally a hostage.

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It was so bizarre. And kids are yelling things

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at him like, what the fuck are you going to do?

00:13:55.269 --> 00:13:58.990
And he just has to take it. It's so strange.

00:13:59.350 --> 00:14:03.190
It's such a bizarro world to view it from the

00:14:03.190 --> 00:14:06.720
outside and to view these. These preposterous

00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.200
allegations that these kids are throwing at him

00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.879
of being racist and everyone's being racist and

00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.879
no one's doing anything to protect them. And

00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:15.740
everyone's acting like they're in danger and

00:14:15.740 --> 00:14:18.059
their ideas are in danger and their their minds

00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:22.519
are in danger. It's just so there's so much grandstanding.

00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:25.620
It's so preposterous. Like, what is it? Well,

00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:27.799
first of all, did you see the video in which

00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:31.519
Dr. Bridges, our president, is being challenged

00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:35.409
for his hand gestures? And the protesters are

00:14:35.409 --> 00:14:39.029
actually policing his hand gestures. No. Oh,

00:14:39.029 --> 00:14:40.850
it's unbelievable. What's wrong with his hand

00:14:40.850 --> 00:14:42.929
gestures? He's not doing this, is he? Don't do

00:14:42.929 --> 00:14:44.590
that. No, no. You can't even wave to a friend.

00:14:44.649 --> 00:14:47.370
You can't even go like this to a friend. They'll

00:14:47.370 --> 00:14:48.889
pause you right here. They'll pause you right

00:14:48.889 --> 00:14:52.049
there in the middle. No, I think he's, I mean,

00:14:52.049 --> 00:14:55.350
I don't want to caricature this because I really

00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:57.889
think it's very important. As preposterous as

00:14:57.889 --> 00:14:59.830
what's going on is, I think it's very important.

00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:03.330
That we understand it. It's very easy to dismiss

00:15:03.330 --> 00:15:06.690
it because it's so strange. But it's very important

00:15:06.690 --> 00:15:08.950
that we get it right. I think the complaint about

00:15:08.950 --> 00:15:13.610
the hand gestures was that they represented microaggressions,

00:15:13.610 --> 00:15:16.009
if you will. I don't know for sure that that

00:15:16.009 --> 00:15:17.429
was the complaint, but I can't make heads or

00:15:17.429 --> 00:15:20.610
tails of it otherwise. What was he doing? Can

00:15:20.610 --> 00:15:23.549
you move your hands? I think he was kind of gesturing

00:15:23.549 --> 00:15:26.870
like a person. Just trying to talk with emotion.

00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:31.460
So I do think there's a translation, which is

00:15:31.460 --> 00:15:34.860
this can be portrayed as a microaggression in

00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:37.080
some way. How is this a microaggression? I mean,

00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:39.200
it isn't. Well, we should talk about whether

00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.200
microaggression is even a good category. But

00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:45.019
let's just say the protesters had enough control

00:15:45.019 --> 00:15:48.259
over him that he gestured. They didn't like it.

00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:50.500
They told him not to. And he capitulated, which

00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:53.879
he's been doing the entire time. So I would say

00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.220
there's a huge amount of what's going on at Evergreen.

00:15:56.860 --> 00:16:00.039
That is what I would call a show of force. Is

00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:02.820
he afraid of losing his job? Is he afraid of

00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:04.779
losing the support of the students? What is he

00:16:04.779 --> 00:16:09.720
afraid of? Well, I got to guess. I think he is

00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.980
afraid of he's old enough. He doesn't need another

00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:15.919
job. He didn't need to take the job at Evergreen,

00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.919
which he took two years ago. I think he is afraid

00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:23.240
that this is going to be the. capstone of his

00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.740
career, a scandal in which he has allowed the

00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:28.039
campus to get out of control, which he did. But

00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.159
here's the crazy thing. It's a non -scandal.

00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:32.639
You're a non -racist who's been accused of being

00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.200
a racist. All you did was say, hey, I don't think

00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:36.519
you should be able to tell people they can't

00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:38.500
show up for work if they're white. They can't

00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:40.059
show up for school if they're white. That seems

00:16:40.059 --> 00:16:43.120
kind of crazy. And now hand gestures. This is

00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.539
how far we've sunk. We're not at Kent State.

00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:48.759
It's not the National Guard shooting students.

00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:51.419
It's this. Moving your hands around while you're

00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:54.120
You're talking with emotion. That's a microaggression.

00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:56.399
This guy's afraid of losing his job because of

00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:00.120
his hand motions. Well, it goes beyond that.

00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:05.619
So when George came to the college, he studied

00:17:05.619 --> 00:17:08.240
us, which I can't hold him responsible for that.

00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:10.140
That was a good move. If he was well -intentioned,

00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:11.599
he would have done that. But he studied us very

00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:14.039
carefully. He had a friend interview hundreds

00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:15.880
of us to figure out what was going on at the

00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:21.259
college. But then he said in motion. policy proposals

00:17:21.259 --> 00:17:24.640
and committees that were empowered in a way that

00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:26.519
was completely at odds with the way the school

00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:30.299
has run traditionally. How so? Well, so among

00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:33.069
the many unique features of Evergreen is the

00:17:33.069 --> 00:17:36.609
fact that the college is, in large measure, governed

00:17:36.609 --> 00:17:39.210
by the faculty and even the administration. All

00:17:39.210 --> 00:17:41.289
of the deans are faculty members who have come

00:17:41.289 --> 00:17:42.910
from the faculty, and when they're done being

00:17:42.910 --> 00:17:44.869
deans, they go back to the faculty. So the faculty

00:17:44.869 --> 00:17:48.549
has control over the college in a way that I

00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:50.410
don't think there's another college in the country

00:17:50.410 --> 00:17:55.049
that runs that way. So what that means is that

00:17:55.049 --> 00:17:57.970
if you want to advance a policy proposal, The

00:17:57.970 --> 00:17:59.950
faculty has to agree to it. And George wanted

00:17:59.950 --> 00:18:01.869
to do some things that the faculty would not

00:18:01.869 --> 00:18:03.769
have agreed to. So I've told you about these

00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:06.130
full time programs where students get this really

00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:09.289
personally tailored education and they they join

00:18:09.289 --> 00:18:10.990
a community that everybody knows each other.

00:18:11.170 --> 00:18:16.109
He wanted to take those apart. Why? I can't imagine.

00:18:16.690 --> 00:18:20.630
I can't imagine why you would. I mean, I can.

00:18:20.869 --> 00:18:23.549
The most generous thing to say is that he did

00:18:23.549 --> 00:18:28.589
not understand. what an important part of the

00:18:28.589 --> 00:18:32.269
Evergreen model those programs are. Whatever

00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:35.730
his reason, it was a terrible error. And the

00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:41.130
only way to do it is to advance the idea as an

00:18:41.130 --> 00:18:43.450
equity -enhancing idea. In other words, you can

00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:48.410
say that the full -time programs are anti...

00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.500
They are anti -equity in the sense that if you

00:18:53.500 --> 00:18:55.559
are disadvantaged, you are less likely to be

00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.059
able to dedicate yourself full time to a program

00:18:58.059 --> 00:19:00.420
because you may be going to school while you

00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:02.779
have a family and you have a job. And so, you

00:19:02.779 --> 00:19:04.819
know, no doubt there's some truth to that. But

00:19:04.819 --> 00:19:06.960
it doesn't, you know, how many colleges in the

00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.980
country do we have that do four credit programs?

00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:11.759
We don't need another. We have one college in

00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.140
the country that does full time programs. And

00:19:14.140 --> 00:19:16.819
even if it is inconvenient for many people for

00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:19.299
reasons that are beyond their control. The real

00:19:19.299 --> 00:19:21.839
question is, can we get enough people for whom

00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.119
that's exactly the right model through the door?

00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.200
And, you know, it's also the college is very

00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:28.900
inconvenient for people who live in Colorado

00:19:28.900 --> 00:19:30.640
by virtue of the fact that it's hundreds of miles

00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.480
away. So anyway, so if you wanted to advance

00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.640
that proposal, it had to be dressed up as equity

00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:38.299
enhancing. And once it was equity enhancing,

00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:40.980
it became very hard to challenge it because,

00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:43.440
of course, if you did challenge it, then you

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:48.809
were anti -equity. Boy, that's convoluted. You're

00:19:48.809 --> 00:19:52.750
telling me. So he wants to sort of disassemble

00:19:52.750 --> 00:19:56.029
this very unique and very beneficial model that

00:19:56.029 --> 00:19:57.829
you guys are operating under. So this is just

00:19:57.829 --> 00:20:01.609
one part of it. Now, how does this get to this

00:20:01.609 --> 00:20:05.369
one suggestion that white people step down? Oh,

00:20:05.490 --> 00:20:08.589
it doesn't. The two are connected in the following

00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:14.490
sense. The president empowered he he. chose people

00:20:14.490 --> 00:20:16.829
to be on what's called the Equity Council. The

00:20:16.829 --> 00:20:18.829
council has changed its name several times, so

00:20:18.829 --> 00:20:21.089
I'm not even sure what the current name is. I

00:20:21.089 --> 00:20:23.470
think it's the Equity and Inclusion Council.

00:20:23.730 --> 00:20:27.670
But in any case, he chose this council. The council

00:20:27.670 --> 00:20:31.309
is, if you count the two deans that are on it,

00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:33.710
it's only a third faculty member. So it's mostly

00:20:33.710 --> 00:20:38.509
students, staff, and less than half faculty.

00:20:39.049 --> 00:20:42.710
And he empowered them to propose. modifications

00:20:42.710 --> 00:20:45.089
to the college that would be equity enhancing.

00:20:45.369 --> 00:20:48.470
And the thing that they advanced, the strategic

00:20:48.470 --> 00:20:52.289
equity plan is extremely densely written. So

00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:53.869
it's hard to read. And most of the people on

00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:56.930
our campus have not read it. Most of the people

00:20:56.930 --> 00:20:59.190
in the faculty have not read it. In fact, when

00:20:59.190 --> 00:21:00.710
it was released, it was pretty clear that most

00:21:00.710 --> 00:21:02.490
of the people on the equity council hadn't read

00:21:02.490 --> 00:21:05.230
it because it was so full of errors, spelling

00:21:05.230 --> 00:21:06.569
errors and other things that would have been

00:21:06.569 --> 00:21:08.910
caught if people had gone through it. But in

00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:11.819
any case, My wife, who also teaches at Evergreen,

00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:13.900
and I and several others did read it carefully

00:21:13.900 --> 00:21:16.839
and were very alarmed at what was in it. So there

00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.319
were features of the document that would, for

00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:24.079
example, completely reorient our hiring. So our

00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:27.319
hiring process, I would be up to see it revised

00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:29.440
and made better, too, because I don't think we

00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:30.980
do it very well. I think it's one of the things

00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:34.259
we're weak about. But anyway, the proposal that

00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:36.819
they advanced was that... For example, every

00:21:36.819 --> 00:21:40.059
single hire would have to be justified on the

00:21:40.059 --> 00:21:42.940
basis that it was equity enhancing, meaning racially

00:21:42.940 --> 00:21:45.799
equity, equity enhancing. So imagine racially

00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:51.539
equity enhanced. Right. So not just not just

00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:55.380
a policy of hiring all kinds of people and not

00:21:55.380 --> 00:21:59.740
being racially discriminatory, but being discriminatory

00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:03.220
in looking for certain people, people of certain

00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:06.309
colors. Well, you're discriminating towards.

00:22:07.009 --> 00:22:10.630
I think beyond that. When I read that, I thought,

00:22:10.650 --> 00:22:14.509
how exactly do you hire a physical chemist and

00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:17.690
justify that this is racially equity enhancing?

00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:21.190
So you would look towards like, say, if you had

00:22:21.190 --> 00:22:26.990
10 chemists, you would try to only hire the ones

00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:29.240
that were of color. Yes. Is that what they're

00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.339
saying? Yes, I think so. I mean, as I said, the

00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:34.359
document is so densely written that it's hard

00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.279
to know. It really is set up, I think, to be

00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.720
dismissed so that it can be instituted and then

00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:43.960
we can find out what it really means. But think

00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:47.539
about the model that I described about how we

00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:51.059
teach at Evergreen. That is not a model that

00:22:51.059 --> 00:22:54.339
anybody trains to teach in. And the people who

00:22:54.339 --> 00:22:58.119
do it well are very unusual. We're not looking

00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:01.819
for the same professors that would be best at

00:23:01.819 --> 00:23:03.480
Berkeley, for example. We're looking for unusual

00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:07.099
people who will take full -time programs and

00:23:07.099 --> 00:23:11.599
total pedagogical autonomy, meaning we actually

00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:13.680
literally are free to teach anything we want

00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:20.359
in any way we want. So that freedom is... A marvelous

00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.059
thing if you have a particular appetite for figuring

00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:25.339
out how teaching should be done, that it's never

00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:27.079
been done anywhere else before, and you're willing

00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:29.980
to try it out and learn from the experience and

00:23:29.980 --> 00:23:32.440
advance that way. So we're looking for very unusual

00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.180
people who find that an appealing challenge rather

00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:38.279
than somebody who wants to get a textbook and

00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:42.099
deliver the regular stuff. If we're now going

00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:45.079
to prioritize race over everything else in our

00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.099
hiring. then finding those needles in a haystack

00:23:48.099 --> 00:23:50.759
who are actually well -built to deal with that

00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.500
much pedagogical freedom and that much contact

00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:55.640
with the students is going to be that much harder

00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:58.380
because sometimes the right person for the job

00:23:58.380 --> 00:24:01.480
just simply isn't going to be dark -skinned or

00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:05.519
who knows. So anyway, I found the proposal, as

00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:07.480
did other people I talked to who had read it,

00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.440
quite alarming at the level of hiring in particular.

00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:16.019
So is it meant to... give the impression of diversity

00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:18.160
just by simply, like, look, we've got all our

00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.279
boxes checked. Here's a brown woman. Here's an

00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.839
Asian man. I mean, is that what they're trying

00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:25.759
to do? Like, look, we've got all our bases covered.

00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.400
This school is diverse. Well, I'd like to put

00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.960
a placeholder on Asian man because during Day

00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:36.759
of Absence, there was actually a, I guess you

00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.000
would call it a seminar held on how Asians might

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.240
just be part of the problem here. Yes, Asians

00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:47.559
and – The problem. Yes. Did you air quote when

00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.940
you said the problem? I didn't. I'm not even

00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:52.839
sure if I should. The world has become so bizarre.

00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:54.680
What does that mean? Asians are part of what

00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:57.180
problem? Well, I think the translation is that

00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:03.279
because Asians are a population, I don't know,

00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:05.180
that is succeeding in a particular way, at least

00:25:05.180 --> 00:25:06.680
from the perception of those who are deciding

00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:10.019
what these seminars look like, that they actually

00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:13.430
– I don't know, have special obligations in this.

00:25:13.509 --> 00:25:15.670
And I might say everything I've just said about

00:25:15.670 --> 00:25:19.789
Asians could be repeated for women, especially

00:25:19.789 --> 00:25:22.750
white women who are playing a special role in

00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:26.309
this equity battle on our campus, too. So white

00:25:26.309 --> 00:25:27.829
women might be a part of the problem as well

00:25:27.829 --> 00:25:31.630
as Asian men? Quite clearly. And so. Right. So

00:25:31.630 --> 00:25:35.029
the idea, I think, I mean, I have my own hypothesis

00:25:35.029 --> 00:25:36.890
about this and that's really all it is, but it

00:25:36.890 --> 00:25:39.849
does fit everything I've seen so far is that.

00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:46.000
There are entities within the, you know, 10 years

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.440
ago, the phrase women and minorities was a very

00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:50.400
common phrase. And what it meant was people who

00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.920
had faced historical oppression. In the current

00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.980
context, that's too many people. In order to

00:25:57.980 --> 00:26:05.079
utilize these structures to feed a certain set

00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:07.099
of populations, you can't very well have all

00:26:07.099 --> 00:26:10.079
women included. And so what's happened is people

00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:14.160
who are perceived as, yes, having been historically

00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.200
disadvantaged in some way, but also at the moment

00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.420
being successful in some sense, are being shoved

00:26:22.420 --> 00:26:25.759
out of the coalition. And then if they feel a

00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:28.779
loss, a sense of loss in having been shoved out,

00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:31.940
the mechanism to get back in is to take on the

00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:34.769
role of what is. ironically called allyship in

00:26:34.769 --> 00:26:36.829
this case, which is not allyship at all. It's

00:26:36.829 --> 00:26:39.569
an abuse of the concept of allyship. Allyship

00:26:39.569 --> 00:26:41.549
is really a symmetrical concept, and this is

00:26:41.549 --> 00:26:44.710
subordination. Subordination, we hear that a

00:26:44.710 --> 00:26:46.609
lot with the male feminist community. The male

00:26:46.609 --> 00:26:48.450
feminists are supposed to be allies to women.

00:26:48.630 --> 00:26:51.950
I even read a paper that was, or an article rather,

00:26:52.109 --> 00:26:55.390
that was telling white people, if you truly want

00:26:55.390 --> 00:26:58.049
to be allies, you should not take high -paying

00:26:58.049 --> 00:27:02.539
jobs, and you should only leave them to... Yes.

00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.319
My brother. Good ally. Yeah, that's what a good

00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:07.839
a good ally subordinates. And that means stepping

00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.579
away from a job, et cetera. So it's not an ally

00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:13.019
at all. No, it has nothing to do with ally. And

00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:15.359
in fact, this is the thing that is most troubling

00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:17.599
to me about my personal situation is that if

00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:20.700
they really wanted, you know, mind you, we're

00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:22.119
going to have to fill in what they means. But

00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:26.980
if this coalition really wanted an ally for a

00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:30.599
quest for real equity. I would be an ally. Right.

00:27:30.700 --> 00:27:33.700
Real equity. Real equity. That's not what they

00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:38.119
want. What do you think that means then? If they

00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:41.700
don't want real equity, what they want is a special

00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:44.380
advantage given to people of color, a special

00:27:44.380 --> 00:27:46.799
advantage given to people that were historically

00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:51.140
oppressed? Well, let's put it this way. I believe

00:27:51.140 --> 00:27:55.059
that in general, at the moment, coalitions are...

00:27:56.290 --> 00:27:59.650
unholy alliances between two things. And in this

00:27:59.650 --> 00:28:02.710
case, you have the real equity movement, which

00:28:02.710 --> 00:28:05.450
are people who wish to end oppression. And then

00:28:05.450 --> 00:28:08.609
you have another movement that wishes to reverse

00:28:08.609 --> 00:28:11.029
oppression. And they don't know that they're

00:28:11.029 --> 00:28:13.710
different because until you reach equity, they're

00:28:13.710 --> 00:28:16.910
pointing in the same direction. I see. So one

00:28:16.910 --> 00:28:22.000
is trying to balance it out by in some way pushing

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.700
down against white people and people who have

00:28:25.700 --> 00:28:29.180
historically had privilege. They're trying to

00:28:29.180 --> 00:28:32.359
reduce their role. They're trying to literally

00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:36.039
oppress. Think about the story we were just talking

00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:38.259
about where the president of the college is being

00:28:38.259 --> 00:28:41.720
told how to move his hands. That's not so unlike

00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:46.480
a black person, a black man, let's say, being

00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.680
told that he's not allowed to look a white woman

00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.599
in the eye. Right. It's that kind of thing having

00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:54.579
been reversed. This is people of color telling

00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:56.660
the president of our college how to move his

00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:59.140
hands. So it was people of color that were telling

00:28:59.140 --> 00:29:02.059
him to do this with his hands. Again, I got to

00:29:02.059 --> 00:29:04.039
be really careful because, you know, I've seen

00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:06.039
the video only once and I'm trying to remember

00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:07.940
if the people who are doing the asking are even

00:29:07.940 --> 00:29:10.160
on the screen. So I don't want to I don't want

00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:11.799
to project something that I don't know for sure.

00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:16.200
But it was definitely this the protesters which

00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:19.319
were protesting on. Some of them were white protesting

00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.720
on behalf of people of color and some of them,

00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.299
many of them were people of color. But even there,

00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:27.000
we're in trouble with the complexity because

00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.680
the people of color coalition that is protesting

00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.200
is not synonymous with people of color at Evergreen.

00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:35.299
There are many people of color at Evergreen who

00:29:35.299 --> 00:29:39.700
are either just simply bewildered by what's going

00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:43.769
on or very troubled by it. Because you can imagine,

00:29:43.910 --> 00:29:45.910
I mean, just put yourself in the shoes of a person

00:29:45.910 --> 00:29:48.369
of color who came to Evergreen to get a really

00:29:48.369 --> 00:29:50.869
interesting education and didn't want to tell

00:29:50.869 --> 00:29:53.390
the president how to move his hands. And then

00:29:53.390 --> 00:29:56.490
you see this happening in your name. What exactly

00:29:56.490 --> 00:29:58.509
are you supposed to do then? Well, there's also

00:29:58.509 --> 00:30:00.829
the problem, the very real problem with the mob

00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:05.579
mentality. And it is a. common thing with human

00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:07.140
beings when they get together in large groups

00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:09.599
and people start chanting and screaming and they

00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:12.859
feel very justified and they always want to escalate.

00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:17.160
It's very weird. It's a strange reaction that

00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.400
human beings have in large groups acting together

00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.019
where they just want to ramp things up. They

00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:24.279
want to take it to the next level. They want

00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:27.140
to shut this motherfucker down. It's a weird

00:30:27.140 --> 00:30:29.799
thing that people do. But I was watching it in

00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.279
your videos where people were saying you should

00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:35.599
resign. You need to resign. You need to resign.

00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:39.380
Like, wow, you need to apologize to that woman

00:30:39.380 --> 00:30:42.039
for communicating with her the way you did. Right.

00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.079
In a very respectful and intelligent manner.

00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.859
Like, they want to bully you around. They want

00:30:47.859 --> 00:30:49.579
to push you around. They want to take that professor,

00:30:49.779 --> 00:30:51.480
that guy who's been allowed to be the one who's

00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:53.420
talking and distributing all the information,

00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.900
and they want to shut you down. It's flat -out

00:30:56.900 --> 00:31:02.400
bullying. Yeah. And what I'm seeing... is that

00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.640
almost nobody seems to know what to do about

00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:08.160
bullies, especially when they're armed with a

00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:10.339
super weapon like the accusation that you're

00:31:10.339 --> 00:31:13.500
a racist. Nobody understands that capitulating

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:16.299
to bullies may solve your problem in the moment,

00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:18.400
but it makes the problem vastly worse over time.

00:31:18.700 --> 00:31:21.559
And so anyway, all I've done is apply that piece

00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:24.000
of knowledge that when a bully challenges you,

00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:28.500
not capitulating is just a prerequisite to getting

00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:32.609
anywhere. Ideally, you want the bully to pay

00:31:32.609 --> 00:31:34.809
enough of a price that they don't continue what

00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:36.690
they're doing. Well, ideally, you would like

00:31:36.690 --> 00:31:38.750
to have a rational conversation with these people

00:31:38.750 --> 00:31:41.029
and get them to see your perspective. And they

00:31:41.029 --> 00:31:43.170
should be able to consider it and say, OK, he's

00:31:43.170 --> 00:31:45.890
not racist. Well, yeah, it is kind of ridiculous

00:31:45.890 --> 00:31:48.910
that we're asking people who didn't have a say

00:31:48.910 --> 00:31:52.180
in what color they were born. To step away from

00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:55.759
something. We're literally discriminating under

00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:59.240
the guise of being anti -discriminatory. We're

00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:02.920
discriminating. Right. And it wouldn't even be

00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:05.319
hard to have that conversation. One -on -one.

00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:09.900
Even, I'd do it 20 -on -one. But don't you think

00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:11.799
that that's what happens? They just start screaming

00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:15.059
and... Well, I mean, A, you have to get used

00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:17.779
to the fact that... You don't get there all at

00:32:17.779 --> 00:32:19.839
once. You plant a seed that's enough to cause

00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:21.740
them to know something about what we're saying

00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:23.920
couldn't possibly be right or we wouldn't be

00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:26.859
seeing what we're seeing. The problem here is

00:32:26.859 --> 00:32:30.259
that the mob that we're talking about is so large

00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:33.059
that even, you know, in the couple cases on last

00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:35.740
Tuesday, not this last Tuesday, I guess it was

00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:39.420
two Tuesdays ago now, the couple of times that

00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:43.400
I was faced with a group that was, you know,

00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.920
somewhere below 100. I actually do think I made

00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:49.099
some progress, but I thought it was not durable

00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:51.180
at all because as soon as the event was over,

00:32:51.339 --> 00:32:54.319
whatever progress was made got overwritten by

00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:58.019
whatever discussion happened next. So it is possible

00:32:58.019 --> 00:33:00.940
to have these discussions, but there's something

00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:05.880
about the momentum that is in play here that

00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:08.279
makes it impossible to make any durable progress.

00:33:08.619 --> 00:33:11.519
Durable progress is a very interesting description.

00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.980
Durable progress. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're

00:33:15.980 --> 00:33:22.740
fighting against this current movement of ridiculous

00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:25.960
ideas that's going on through schools. And we

00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:27.859
saw it with Yale. We saw it with those students

00:33:27.859 --> 00:33:31.670
screaming at. What was it? The professor? Was

00:33:31.670 --> 00:33:33.930
it a professor? Who was the guy they were screaming

00:33:33.930 --> 00:33:38.130
at that was trying to defend his wife's email

00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:41.769
about Halloween costumes? Yes. Maybe we should

00:33:41.769 --> 00:33:44.230
allow people to wear ridiculous Halloween costumes

00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:46.450
because that's part of like the fun of Halloween.

00:33:46.630 --> 00:33:48.529
Yes. And people are acting like you were saying

00:33:48.529 --> 00:33:51.890
that we should be lynching people. Well, so first

00:33:51.890 --> 00:33:55.089
of all, he did reach out to me and his point

00:33:55.089 --> 00:33:59.240
was what you are going through is. eerily reminiscent.

00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:01.980
He's watched the videos and he was just pointing

00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:03.599
out how shocking it was. I mean, even to the

00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:06.839
point of my wife having been dragged in here,

00:34:06.900 --> 00:34:11.860
oddly, in this discussion where she wrote an

00:34:11.860 --> 00:34:16.659
email internal to our distribution list asking

00:34:16.659 --> 00:34:19.480
the college why they were not protecting me and

00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:21.719
my students who were being actively stalked on

00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:25.000
our campus, harassed, doxxed. Which students?

00:34:25.550 --> 00:34:27.909
My current students. But why? Why are your current

00:34:27.909 --> 00:34:30.630
students being harassed? Because my current students,

00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:33.989
like almost all of my former students, know that

00:34:33.989 --> 00:34:37.050
this charge is completely baseless. And so they

00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:40.170
have been supportive. So in defending you, then

00:34:40.170 --> 00:34:42.610
they're being attacked. Absolutely. Like they're

00:34:42.610 --> 00:34:44.710
little soldiers in some sort of a strange ideological

00:34:44.710 --> 00:34:48.409
battle. They are being penalized for not falling

00:34:48.409 --> 00:34:52.559
in line. Wow. That's scary. That's real scary

00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:54.599
bullying when someone says, hey, he's a good

00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:57.579
guy. And then someone comes after them and says,

00:34:57.639 --> 00:34:59.599
this is where this person lives. Let's find them.

00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:03.320
That has actually literally happened. And what

00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:05.239
has happened to the students once they do find

00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:08.880
them? Well, so the students have been, I think

00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.079
the idea is intimidation. So I've had students

00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:15.059
followed in the woods. In the woods. I've had

00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:18.659
students visited at home. It's very scary. And

00:35:18.659 --> 00:35:22.579
I should say, just in terms of putting the context

00:35:22.579 --> 00:35:25.619
here, as the college was pretending that nothing

00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:29.500
serious was going on, the police called me up

00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:31.820
on the Wednesday just after the Tuesday in which

00:35:31.820 --> 00:35:35.519
I had been challenged in my class and asked me,

00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.219
are you on campus? And I didn't have class. I

00:35:38.219 --> 00:35:39.599
said, no, I'm not on campus. They said, don't

00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:48.159
come to campus. I said, why? searching car to

00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:50.460
car for what they describe as an individual,

00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.179
and we think it's you, and the college has told

00:35:54.179 --> 00:35:58.000
us to stand down, we can't protect you. What?

00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:02.820
I know. The college has told the police to not

00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:06.760
protect you? The college told the police to stand

00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:10.900
down, which means the police were literally barricaded

00:36:10.900 --> 00:36:15.750
in the police station. despite their sense that

00:36:15.750 --> 00:36:18.849
they very much needed to be actively protecting

00:36:18.849 --> 00:36:20.670
people outside of the police station. The police

00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:23.369
were left with no choice but to barricade themselves

00:36:23.369 --> 00:36:25.510
in the police station because they answered to

00:36:25.510 --> 00:36:28.050
the college administration, which told them not

00:36:28.050 --> 00:36:30.469
to act, I think because it wished to prevent

00:36:30.469 --> 00:36:36.010
a news story. But this meant people engaged in

00:36:36.010 --> 00:36:39.619
these protests were... Roving freely about the

00:36:39.619 --> 00:36:43.900
campus, looking for people, following them. That's

00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:47.559
so incredibly aggressive. Like looking for individuals

00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:51.380
in a car. And to do what? Well, that's the question.

00:36:51.619 --> 00:36:54.619
My guess would be even they don't know. Let's

00:36:54.619 --> 00:36:56.119
say that it was me that they were looking for,

00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:59.480
which would make sense. I would imagine that

00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:03.039
they would have had the idea of, I don't know,

00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:04.760
taking me somewhere and getting me to acknowledge.

00:37:05.420 --> 00:37:07.179
Something that they think some sort of a hostage

00:37:07.179 --> 00:37:11.260
situation. Right. But suppose I didn't want to

00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:14.119
acknowledge whatever it is that they wanted me

00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:16.260
to acknowledge, just as I didn't want to resign

00:37:16.260 --> 00:37:19.579
when they said I should resign. I don't I don't

00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:21.099
know if they had a backup plan. And it worries

00:37:21.099 --> 00:37:23.179
me that one of the things that unfolded on the

00:37:23.179 --> 00:37:26.719
campus was that people who had a very clear idea

00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:31.340
of how things should go were they were literally.

00:37:32.269 --> 00:37:34.489
I mean, they were barricaded in the president's

00:37:34.489 --> 00:37:36.949
office with the president and a bunch of faculty

00:37:36.949 --> 00:37:39.570
members and staff. And the story is that the

00:37:39.570 --> 00:37:42.829
president wanted to go to the bathroom and he

00:37:42.829 --> 00:37:44.949
was not even allowed to go privately to the bathroom.

00:37:45.030 --> 00:37:48.090
He had to be escorted by two people. Who? The

00:37:48.090 --> 00:37:49.630
president of the college. But who are the people?

00:37:50.210 --> 00:37:52.329
Protesters. Protesters had to go with him to

00:37:52.329 --> 00:37:57.289
the bathroom. Right. So that, to me, sounds like

00:37:57.289 --> 00:38:04.050
literally kidnapping. It's just stunning that

00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:08.570
he agreed to that. All of it is stunning. I can't

00:38:08.570 --> 00:38:13.030
believe I'm seeing it. Well, this is PC gone

00:38:13.030 --> 00:38:15.010
amok. I mean, this is what everybody's been worried

00:38:15.010 --> 00:38:17.369
about. This is what you are right now is that

00:38:17.369 --> 00:38:20.789
you're the tip of the spear. We are previewing

00:38:20.789 --> 00:38:23.730
where this goes taken to its logical extent.

00:38:23.829 --> 00:38:26.780
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and. Could have been worse

00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:29.400
had you not been contacted by the police. Had

00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:31.659
you been in one of those cars? Had you been pulled

00:38:31.659 --> 00:38:33.739
out? Had you been pulled into some sort of a

00:38:33.739 --> 00:38:35.320
hostage situation where they were trying to tell

00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:37.840
you you can't go to the bathroom without us like

00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:39.719
they did to the fucking president and he agreed

00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:42.300
to it? Yeah. I mean, this is madness. I mean,

00:38:42.340 --> 00:38:44.300
that's like people should go to jail for that.

00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:47.920
Well, so, okay. That's kidnapping. It's kidnapping.

00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:53.440
I do think that the administration and. certain

00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.420
faculty members have a lot of responsibility

00:38:55.420 --> 00:38:58.139
here. So I think in some sense, yes, it's literal

00:38:58.139 --> 00:39:01.199
kidnapping. The students, however, I believe

00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.380
have become tools of something that they don't

00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:06.539
really understand. Tools of what, though? Of

00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:10.719
their own making? I mean, is it an ideology outside

00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:12.920
of the school that they subscribe to? Or is it

00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:18.099
their own... I mean, what is it? Well, I believe

00:39:18.099 --> 00:39:26.190
it is a... A militant belief structure. And I

00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:30.250
do think based on what we've seen on our campus,

00:39:30.329 --> 00:39:35.170
it is emanating from a subset of the black population.

00:39:35.710 --> 00:39:38.789
OK, so I'm not saying that this is black people

00:39:38.789 --> 00:39:40.610
doing this, but I'm saying that the people who

00:39:40.610 --> 00:39:43.190
are at the forefront of it happen to be in that

00:39:43.190 --> 00:39:45.989
part of the coalition of people of color and

00:39:45.989 --> 00:39:49.070
that they are advancing a set of assumptions

00:39:49.070 --> 00:39:53.710
and beliefs that they. seem to imagine uh describe

00:39:53.710 --> 00:39:56.989
some future world that they would like to reach

00:39:56.989 --> 00:39:59.010
and it's a future world i mean it's preposterous

00:39:59.010 --> 00:40:01.369
it will never happen because what is the future

00:40:01.369 --> 00:40:07.030
world where the 400 years of oppression of black

00:40:07.030 --> 00:40:12.650
people in north america results in a uh a reversal

00:40:12.650 --> 00:40:16.789
of roles i think i mean i i can't imagine having

00:40:16.789 --> 00:40:21.159
that thought and following it through and not

00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:24.320
realizing that this can't possibly be anything

00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.920
like a way forward. This is something that they've

00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:29.880
described, this reversal of roles, that they

00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:31.619
would like to come to this conclusion? So I would

00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:33.760
imagine that your listeners, having heard me

00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:36.300
just say what I said, have to be wondering a

00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:38.860
little bit about me and where my sympathies really

00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:41.699
lie. But what I've seen, and if your listeners

00:40:41.699 --> 00:40:44.420
go looking at the videos that came out of Evergreen

00:40:44.420 --> 00:40:47.320
over the last 10 days, posted by the protesters,

00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:49.599
I should point out. Videos that they thought

00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.719
made them look good. They will find many instances

00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:58.920
in which the official order of things says, well,

00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:00.699
let's say there's a four o 'clock meeting on

00:41:00.699 --> 00:41:02.500
the Tuesday in which I was challenged in the

00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:04.800
morning. Four o 'clock meeting that became very

00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:11.579
dangerous. And the meeting began with an announcement

00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:15.280
that the chairs and the food were for people

00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:18.099
of color and that white people shouldn't. Use

00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:22.260
them. Yes, I know. The chairs and the food were

00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:24.960
only for people of color. Correct. White people

00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.559
have to be hungry. Right. You can't sit down.

00:41:27.940 --> 00:41:30.960
Right. And I've also seen, you know, I don't

00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:32.719
remember where I saw it now. I probably have

00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.000
a screenshot of it, but I saw something where

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:40.030
some activists. put out a message, a broadcast

00:41:40.030 --> 00:41:42.550
message that said a person of color needed a

00:41:42.550 --> 00:41:44.650
power adapter for a computer. Were there any

00:41:44.650 --> 00:41:46.550
white people who could fetch one or something

00:41:46.550 --> 00:41:50.710
like that? Oh, Jesus. I mean, the thing is it's

00:41:50.710 --> 00:41:53.090
preposterous, but it is also putting in danger

00:41:53.090 --> 00:41:58.369
the actual vision of a world in which race ceases

00:41:58.369 --> 00:42:02.719
to provide advantage. Right. So anyway, it's

00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:04.099
jeopardizing. The idea that it should be reversed

00:42:04.099 --> 00:42:06.219
is just so crazy. Like, we should oppress now.

00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:08.500
Like, no, there should be none. Right. We should

00:42:08.500 --> 00:42:11.460
get past this. Right. We should be anti -supremacist.

00:42:11.500 --> 00:42:14.880
Yes, 100%. This idea, I mean, imagine if there

00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:16.659
was a college in North America that suggested

00:42:16.659 --> 00:42:19.579
that white people only should eat and white people

00:42:19.579 --> 00:42:22.289
only should be able to take the seats. Is that

00:42:22.289 --> 00:42:24.110
what's going to happen 300 years? So what if

00:42:24.110 --> 00:42:25.909
black people are pressed for the next 300? Then

00:42:25.909 --> 00:42:28.110
white people come back and say, hey, we're going

00:42:28.110 --> 00:42:30.590
to have to turn this around again. I mean, isn't

00:42:30.590 --> 00:42:32.690
the idea that 100 years from now, white people

00:42:32.690 --> 00:42:35.449
are going to be a minority in America? Because

00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:38.269
the rates of birth with Latinos and black folks

00:42:38.269 --> 00:42:41.809
that will there won't be this minority group

00:42:41.809 --> 00:42:43.690
anymore, that they will be, in fact, a majority.

00:42:44.539 --> 00:42:47.639
All I can say is it's so obviously a wrong path

00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:51.440
just in terms of, A, it's not an honorable objective.

00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:53.800
It's racist. It's racist. It's absolutely racist.

00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:56.860
I mean, it's not even difficult to see that.

00:42:56.940 --> 00:42:59.199
It just simply is racist. But if you say that

00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:02.019
on my campus at the moment, you're the racist

00:43:02.019 --> 00:43:04.179
for not understanding why this is logical. So

00:43:04.179 --> 00:43:06.519
how do people react when someone says a person

00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.280
of color needs a power adapter? Can a white person

00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:11.719
go fetch it? Are there these white? Air quote

00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:14.639
allies that are running these beta males and

00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:17.800
just running to go grab a white power adapter

00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:20.679
and give it to this person of color. Is that

00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:22.659
what's happening? That's the literal description

00:43:22.659 --> 00:43:25.619
of it. Jesus Christ. And then they have to in

00:43:25.619 --> 00:43:27.000
a few years, they're going to have to go on to

00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:29.449
the workforce. Well, and that's the thing that,

00:43:29.469 --> 00:43:31.090
well, this is a whole other side of the puzzle.

00:43:31.170 --> 00:43:33.590
What this is really about, and not just at Evergreen,

00:43:33.650 --> 00:43:36.050
but this movement which has taken over so many

00:43:36.050 --> 00:43:39.250
campuses and shut down so many people who spoke

00:43:39.250 --> 00:43:42.409
with positions that were not somehow sanctioned,

00:43:42.409 --> 00:43:48.929
is really a battle between two incompatible worldviews

00:43:48.929 --> 00:43:52.789
within the academy. So on the one hand, you have

00:43:52.789 --> 00:43:55.190
the sciences and all of the things that function

00:43:55.190 --> 00:43:57.210
on the same assumptions that the sciences do

00:43:57.210 --> 00:44:00.269
about how you figure out what's true. And then

00:44:00.269 --> 00:44:03.130
you have these postmodern disciplines, which

00:44:03.130 --> 00:44:06.570
basically argue that the tools that the sciences

00:44:06.570 --> 00:44:09.050
claim are about figuring out what's true are

00:44:09.050 --> 00:44:12.070
actually tools of oppression themselves. And

00:44:12.070 --> 00:44:14.369
so, you know, another video. Goddamn rulers.

00:44:15.130 --> 00:44:20.599
Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So there's this

00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.380
video in the middle of the Tuesday, the first

00:44:23.380 --> 00:44:25.300
Tuesday of these protests, where the president

00:44:25.300 --> 00:44:28.980
barricaded with these protesters is talking to

00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:34.500
them. And the protesters actually flat out say

00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:38.179
in referring to my email that I mentioned the

00:44:38.179 --> 00:44:41.760
word phenotype and that that inherently tells

00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:45.059
you that I must be a racist to even be thinking

00:44:45.059 --> 00:44:48.309
about. a scientific term in the context of this,

00:44:48.469 --> 00:44:52.989
which I find horrifying because these very students

00:44:52.989 --> 00:44:56.170
stand to gain a tremendous amount. They will

00:44:56.170 --> 00:44:59.409
be most powerful in the world in pursuing equity,

00:44:59.550 --> 00:45:01.170
among other things. They will be most powerful

00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:04.929
in the world if they are armed with a scientific

00:45:04.929 --> 00:45:07.889
toolkit, with an analytical toolkit that allows

00:45:07.889 --> 00:45:12.289
them to be forceful rather than to be preposterous.

00:45:12.809 --> 00:45:14.610
What was the context you used the word phenotype

00:45:14.610 --> 00:45:18.349
again? I forget. Oh, I said that I would like

00:45:18.349 --> 00:45:22.289
us in my challenge to the new day of absence

00:45:22.289 --> 00:45:25.610
formulation. I said I would like us to put phenotype

00:45:25.610 --> 00:45:29.769
aside. Right. Put phenotype aside, meaning that

00:45:29.769 --> 00:45:33.869
I did not want us discussing equity as teams,

00:45:33.969 --> 00:45:37.130
as different teams broken up by color. And so

00:45:37.130 --> 00:45:39.719
the very fact that I said phenotype. And that

00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:41.900
I suggested that I would be willing to give a

00:45:41.900 --> 00:45:45.099
lecture to anybody who wanted to come about what

00:45:45.099 --> 00:45:48.699
I understand to be the evolutionary context of

00:45:48.699 --> 00:45:51.800
racism. And they did not want the lecture. They

00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:54.639
assumed that if I said evolution and racism that

00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.539
I was going to give a eugenics lecture or something

00:45:56.539 --> 00:46:00.019
like that. And so it's preposterous. The way

00:46:00.019 --> 00:46:02.900
this works is they shut down the conversation

00:46:02.900 --> 00:46:05.059
before you can have it so that they don't actually

00:46:05.059 --> 00:46:06.860
know what you're going to say and therefore don't

00:46:06.860 --> 00:46:10.570
need to address it. Oh, God. Yeah. It's quite

00:46:10.570 --> 00:46:13.110
frightening. Well, it's bizarre because it's

00:46:13.110 --> 00:46:17.150
primarily occurring in universities. It's not

00:46:17.150 --> 00:46:19.429
happening really in high schools very much. It

00:46:19.429 --> 00:46:21.750
sort of bubbles up in high schools, it appears,

00:46:21.869 --> 00:46:23.570
by people that I've talked to that have been

00:46:23.570 --> 00:46:25.710
in high school and gone into universities that

00:46:25.710 --> 00:46:28.210
you see echoes of it. You see the beginnings.

00:46:28.889 --> 00:46:31.250
And then when it gets to college, you're away

00:46:31.250 --> 00:46:33.230
from your parents. You're in some new place.

00:46:33.690 --> 00:46:36.389
Everyone gathers in groups. They dig their heels

00:46:36.389 --> 00:46:39.530
in the sand, and they go fucking crazy. Well,

00:46:39.630 --> 00:46:42.289
I mean, there is something about college and,

00:46:42.489 --> 00:46:44.769
you know, we all did some dumb stuff in college.

00:46:45.889 --> 00:46:48.969
But I also think there's a hidden reason for

00:46:48.969 --> 00:46:52.090
it being colleges, which is that there is real

00:46:52.090 --> 00:46:54.429
inequity in civilization that needs to be dealt

00:46:54.429 --> 00:46:57.050
with. I would say the thing that I find most

00:46:57.050 --> 00:47:01.110
troubling is the skew in policing and in the

00:47:01.110 --> 00:47:04.789
courts that results in disproportionate fractions

00:47:04.789 --> 00:47:07.730
of some populations. being incarcerated, which

00:47:07.730 --> 00:47:10.710
has terrifically destabilizing impact on those

00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:12.769
communities. So I think that that is a very real

00:47:12.769 --> 00:47:17.590
harm that would be hard to overstate and that

00:47:17.590 --> 00:47:20.949
absolutely has to be addressed just to even make

00:47:20.949 --> 00:47:24.250
any claim on being a fair society. That said,

00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:29.429
it is very hard to attack the private prison

00:47:29.429 --> 00:47:32.630
complex, for example, right? It's a difficult

00:47:32.630 --> 00:47:35.289
challenge. On the other hand, the universities...

00:47:35.530 --> 00:47:38.289
are a soft target. They can't defend themselves

00:47:38.289 --> 00:47:40.829
and they already have sympathies in the direction

00:47:40.829 --> 00:47:44.829
of, you know, a view of a radically different

00:47:44.829 --> 00:47:49.110
enhanced world. So in effect, I think we're being

00:47:49.110 --> 00:47:52.650
challenged on the basis that the inequities on

00:47:52.650 --> 00:47:56.630
our campuses are completely intolerable and that

00:47:56.630 --> 00:48:02.809
that is largely a fiction and that what really

00:48:02.809 --> 00:48:05.559
is happening is that this is displaced anger

00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.219
over a system that is fair, that's been pointed

00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:10.719
at something that can't defend itself. That's

00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:13.860
fascinating. So this is a reaction to the actual

00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:15.980
real inequities of the outside world, the systemic

00:48:15.980 --> 00:48:18.239
racism of places like Baltimore and what we're

00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:20.940
finding out about places where they literally

00:48:20.940 --> 00:48:23.519
would not sell homes to black people, communities

00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:25.679
that have just had generation after generation

00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:27.420
of impoverished people that are fighting off

00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:30.039
crime -ridden neighborhoods. Right, or water

00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:32.920
you can't drink because it has lead in it. Right,

00:48:33.099 --> 00:48:37.000
exactly. What the universities, what's happening

00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.780
in the universities is sort of a misguided reaction

00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:42.139
to all the real inequity in the world. I would

00:48:42.139 --> 00:48:44.500
say not misguided, it's misdirected. Misdirected.

00:48:44.500 --> 00:48:46.380
It's just pointed at the wrong thing. And the

00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:48.699
reason it's pointed at the colleges and universities

00:48:48.699 --> 00:48:50.599
is that they simply can't defend themselves.

00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:56.440
That's fascinating. And so this is occurring

00:48:56.440 --> 00:49:00.400
in universities all over the country. And at

00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:03.460
a rate that's... According to people that I know

00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:07.099
that teach pretty unprecedented that this wasn't

00:49:07.099 --> 00:49:09.599
the case 20 years ago, that you would have dissent,

00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.179
you would have debate, you'd have discussion,

00:49:11.380 --> 00:49:14.599
but you wouldn't have these full blown ideological

00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:18.219
mobs. Yeah, I think the thing is, it hadn't been

00:49:18.219 --> 00:49:21.539
operationalized yet. The thought process that

00:49:21.539 --> 00:49:27.559
led to this was postmodernism has been. has been

00:49:27.559 --> 00:49:30.139
around for decades. And so there were places

00:49:30.139 --> 00:49:32.340
you could go if you wanted to have an absurd

00:49:32.340 --> 00:49:35.719
discussion. You could go, for example, to cultural

00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:38.460
anthropology. Cultural anthropology was captured

00:49:38.460 --> 00:49:41.980
by postmodernism 30 years ago. And so if you

00:49:41.980 --> 00:49:44.380
wanted to hear people say really crazy things

00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:47.000
about what's true, cultural anthropology was

00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:48.679
a place you could do it. If you stepped next

00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:51.519
door to physical anthropology. It was just fine.

00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:55.239
And so anyway, that's been in the university.

00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:59.239
And what's happened is it has been how would

00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:01.639
one put it? It has been operationalized or activated

00:50:01.639 --> 00:50:06.719
so that it is now it is now it forms the core

00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:09.039
of a vision that college students are trying

00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:12.000
to bring about. Not all of them, but enough of

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.440
them that you can't run a college without either

00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:16.440
deciding to capitulate or figuring out how you're

00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:22.329
going to fight back. Was there a way that this

00:50:22.329 --> 00:50:24.789
could have been stopped or nipped in the bud

00:50:24.789 --> 00:50:27.570
in the years past? Or is there a way that this

00:50:27.570 --> 00:50:30.650
could have been sort of planned for? Was there

00:50:30.650 --> 00:50:36.329
a lack of foresight? Yeah. This is exactly, it's

00:50:36.329 --> 00:50:38.409
what I was talking about a few minutes ago. If

00:50:38.409 --> 00:50:42.110
you give in to the bully, the bully comes back

00:50:42.110 --> 00:50:44.989
stronger. We've been given in to the postmodern

00:50:44.989 --> 00:50:49.000
bully for... And it's now come back in a form

00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:51.539
that nobody knows what to do with it. So what

00:50:51.539 --> 00:50:54.340
was the original reason to give in when it was

00:50:54.340 --> 00:50:57.679
a more mild argument? Well, because it was an

00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:03.239
abstraction. So originally, the idea that that

00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:09.719
certain. That based on. Certain people who had

00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:12.860
been, for example, largely shut out of the sciences

00:51:12.860 --> 00:51:16.940
were entitled to think without having to deal

00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:19.320
with the structures that had been built around,

00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:22.340
let's say, men and mostly white men over the

00:51:22.340 --> 00:51:25.619
course of Western scientific history. So the

00:51:25.619 --> 00:51:29.400
idea that women maybe needed a place to discuss

00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:32.280
what was true that was not structured by men,

00:51:32.420 --> 00:51:35.420
I get that. And in fact, there's a very good...

00:51:36.909 --> 00:51:39.989
example in my own field where the difference

00:51:39.989 --> 00:51:42.530
between the way men and women, I don't mean every

00:51:42.530 --> 00:51:44.690
man and every woman, but the difference on average

00:51:44.690 --> 00:51:47.469
I think played a decisive and very positive role

00:51:47.469 --> 00:51:50.670
when Louis Leakey empowered three women to go

00:51:50.670 --> 00:51:53.909
study the three great apes in order to figure

00:51:53.909 --> 00:51:55.730
out what was going on with them. And so Jane

00:51:55.730 --> 00:51:58.449
Goodall figured out what was going on with the

00:51:58.449 --> 00:52:02.030
chimps because she was... because she was female

00:52:02.030 --> 00:52:03.869
and because she didn't subscribe to the rules

00:52:03.869 --> 00:52:05.969
that men had written down about how you study

00:52:05.969 --> 00:52:08.110
these creatures. And so it is a case where something

00:52:08.110 --> 00:52:10.670
about the way men look at the world had prevented

00:52:10.670 --> 00:52:14.369
people like George Schaller, who had made his

00:52:14.369 --> 00:52:17.429
mark studying lions. He didn't do so well with

00:52:17.429 --> 00:52:20.750
gorillas. So anyway, Jane Goodall's female approach

00:52:20.750 --> 00:52:23.829
worked, and it is largely the reason that we

00:52:23.829 --> 00:52:27.889
understand chimps today. On the other hand, Jane

00:52:27.889 --> 00:52:31.210
Goodall... took the scientific toolkit and threw

00:52:31.210 --> 00:52:33.949
out the rules that had been biased rather than

00:52:33.949 --> 00:52:36.349
rejecting the scientific toolkit, which is what

00:52:36.349 --> 00:52:38.590
the postmoderns are doing, which I think is just

00:52:38.590 --> 00:52:42.570
tragic. What we should be doing is arming everybody

00:52:42.570 --> 00:52:45.050
who goes to college. And frankly, we should be

00:52:45.050 --> 00:52:48.269
arming everybody who can't go to college with

00:52:48.269 --> 00:52:50.449
a scientific toolkit that lets them figure out

00:52:50.449 --> 00:52:53.269
what's true, especially now, because science

00:52:53.269 --> 00:52:56.699
is the ultimate bullshit detector. you know,

00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:59.840
this era is, you know, hopefully this is peak

00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:01.739
bullshit, but they need the ultimate bullshit

00:53:01.739 --> 00:53:04.059
detector. It does seem like peak bullshit, right?

00:53:04.139 --> 00:53:07.519
And it seems like that's one of the reasons why

00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:09.320
it's so important for you to stand your ground,

00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:15.659
is that you are, you're being very clear in what

00:53:15.659 --> 00:53:19.530
you perceive this situation to be. And you're

00:53:19.530 --> 00:53:22.650
doing it in a very logical and a very rational,

00:53:22.710 --> 00:53:25.789
well thought out and clearly structured way.

00:53:25.869 --> 00:53:28.210
You're showing everyone what's wrong with this.

00:53:28.250 --> 00:53:31.130
It is a scientific approach. You are literally

00:53:31.130 --> 00:53:33.929
using the very tools that you're trying to empower

00:53:33.929 --> 00:53:37.170
these young children. Young children. I feel

00:53:37.170 --> 00:53:38.889
like they are. Yeah. These kids. You can say

00:53:38.889 --> 00:53:43.809
kids. Young folks. Beautiful, exuberant human

00:53:43.809 --> 00:53:46.389
beings. Millennials. Yeah, millennials. I hate

00:53:46.389 --> 00:53:48.349
those words. I hate those generational terms.

00:53:48.510 --> 00:53:51.590
But you're literally using, you're dealing with

00:53:51.590 --> 00:53:55.030
a dilemma, and you're using the very tools that

00:53:55.030 --> 00:53:57.989
you would like them to learn from this university

00:53:57.989 --> 00:53:59.989
and take forth into the world. I mean, it is

00:53:59.989 --> 00:54:02.929
a very scientific approach. You're saying, like,

00:54:02.949 --> 00:54:05.789
well, no, this is not, that's not racism, and

00:54:05.789 --> 00:54:07.889
this is racism, and what you're doing here is

00:54:07.889 --> 00:54:11.019
actually racism. Right. And in fact, you know,

00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:15.440
the irony is so my students and really my students,

00:54:15.500 --> 00:54:17.880
many of them are both my students and my wife's

00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:19.980
students. We both teach evolutionary biology

00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:22.539
and students bounce back and forth between our

00:54:22.539 --> 00:54:24.500
programs. So, you know, we have people in our

00:54:24.500 --> 00:54:30.119
community who are empowered by having an understanding

00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:33.400
of how things function evolutionarily that gives

00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:35.300
them a window into all sorts of things, including.

00:54:36.059 --> 00:54:38.900
human social dynamics and other things that affect

00:54:38.900 --> 00:54:44.780
us all the time. So anyway, yes, there is a way

00:54:44.780 --> 00:54:48.179
of thinking about virtually any of the issues

00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:50.840
that most people care about using scientific

00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:53.480
rationality, which does not mean that you put

00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:56.059
aside your humanity, but it means that you give

00:54:56.059 --> 00:54:58.860
your humanity a tool to understand what is going

00:54:58.860 --> 00:55:01.619
on before you figure out how you feel about it

00:55:01.619 --> 00:55:05.809
and whether something ought to be done. How does

00:55:05.809 --> 00:55:09.369
this university survive this? How does the community

00:55:09.369 --> 00:55:12.090
survive this? How do these students come out

00:55:12.090 --> 00:55:14.969
of this with a new understanding of what went

00:55:14.969 --> 00:55:17.730
wrong and in some way that allows them to save

00:55:17.730 --> 00:55:20.070
face and still be a viable part of the community?

00:55:20.530 --> 00:55:23.090
That is a beautiful question. Thank you for asking

00:55:23.090 --> 00:55:25.429
it. I really hope it works. I got three things

00:55:25.429 --> 00:55:27.170
and I'm afraid I'm going to forget one of them.

00:55:27.210 --> 00:55:30.210
But first of all, there's one clear first step.

00:55:30.730 --> 00:55:33.210
The president of the college has to step down.

00:55:33.269 --> 00:55:35.010
And there are two reasons he has to step down.

00:55:35.210 --> 00:55:38.070
One, this is how things work. I don't like how

00:55:38.070 --> 00:55:39.230
you're moving your hands when you're talking.

00:55:39.349 --> 00:55:41.449
I'm sorry, John. Microaggressions. Is that better?

00:55:44.050 --> 00:55:47.849
So he's got to step down because, A, when something

00:55:47.849 --> 00:55:51.150
has gone as crazy as we've seen things go on

00:55:51.150 --> 00:55:54.539
Evergreen's campus. there is an expectation that

00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:56.500
somebody will take responsibility. So he has

00:55:56.500 --> 00:55:59.500
to step down to signal to the world that somebody's

00:55:59.500 --> 00:56:02.599
taking responsibility. But in this case, he also

00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:05.880
absolutely must step down because this is his

00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:08.059
responsibility. He set this in motion and he

00:56:08.059 --> 00:56:12.260
made this happen. And so it is not an injustice

00:56:12.260 --> 00:56:14.199
at all that he should have to step down. And

00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:17.119
I frankly am flabbergasted that it hasn't happened

00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:19.500
yet. I do not understand how the board of trustees

00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:22.400
could allow him to maintain that position as

00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:25.219
long as he has. But first thing is he has to

00:56:25.219 --> 00:56:29.460
step down. At the point he steps down, that's

00:56:29.460 --> 00:56:32.079
going to flip a switch. Suddenly the question

00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:36.000
is, okay, what now? The next thing that would

00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:38.559
have to happen is the faculty of my college would

00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:41.320
have to evidence that they actually got something

00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:43.380
out of this rather than feeling that they had

00:56:43.380 --> 00:56:46.469
been wrongly. portrayed in the media or something

00:56:46.469 --> 00:56:48.949
like that. If the faculty, and there are many

00:56:48.949 --> 00:56:51.170
good faculty who do understand what's going on.

00:56:51.289 --> 00:56:55.269
So they have been quiet because, frankly, they're

00:56:55.269 --> 00:56:56.889
afraid of what happens to them if they're not.

00:56:57.210 --> 00:57:02.070
But George has to step down or be fired, and

00:57:02.070 --> 00:57:05.510
the faculty have to rally and evidence that they

00:57:05.510 --> 00:57:07.769
learned something. And then the third thing,

00:57:07.929 --> 00:57:11.570
and in some ways, this is the one that is, I

00:57:11.570 --> 00:57:16.730
think, the toughest. They came after me. They

00:57:16.730 --> 00:57:19.409
came after two other people, the chief of police

00:57:19.409 --> 00:57:23.050
of our police force, Stacey Brown, who they have

00:57:23.050 --> 00:57:26.289
been attempting. She is a utterly professional,

00:57:26.809 --> 00:57:30.550
extremely good police officer who is also an

00:57:30.550 --> 00:57:33.539
Evergreen graduate and interested. in cleaning

00:57:33.539 --> 00:57:36.239
up policing she wants she she's aware of what

00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:38.300
bad policing is and what this is campus police

00:57:38.300 --> 00:57:40.920
campus police so it's independent of the the

00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:43.619
region right which is why they were stood down

00:57:43.619 --> 00:57:45.500
because they are part of the administration is

00:57:45.500 --> 00:57:49.320
is has control over them but the chief of police

00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:53.400
was demonized and uh i mean in the most disgusting

00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:57.139
ways posters of her wearing a KKK outfit and

00:57:57.139 --> 00:58:00.559
some sort of, I don't know, sexed up garb was

00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:03.139
distributed. This is a mother of three, right?

00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:07.719
And what was the logic behind it? Well, I hate

00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:11.480
to say it, but the logic, I think, was this saying

00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:15.679
that circulates, all cops are bad. So she was

00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:21.320
literally, her swearing in. was protested so

00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:23.519
at the very moment she took the job she was already

00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:27.519
persona non grata um they want no police well

00:58:27.519 --> 00:58:29.699
and in fact they advocated for that there was

00:58:29.699 --> 00:58:32.380
in the middle of this protest there was a uh

00:58:32.380 --> 00:58:35.230
something like a Police Community Review Board,

00:58:35.289 --> 00:58:36.550
I'm not sure exactly what it's called, but there

00:58:36.550 --> 00:58:38.369
was some sort of a gathering where suggestions

00:58:38.369 --> 00:58:40.670
about better policing were advanced. And the

00:58:40.670 --> 00:58:43.090
protesters actually advanced not only the idea

00:58:43.090 --> 00:58:44.909
that the police be moved off campus, that they'd

00:58:44.909 --> 00:58:48.110
be disarmed, but that in fact that campus policing

00:58:48.110 --> 00:58:50.610
be turned over to what they call community policing.

00:58:50.829 --> 00:58:53.829
So at the very same moment that you have protesters

00:58:53.829 --> 00:58:58.750
as judge, jury and executioner searching cars

00:58:58.750 --> 00:59:02.050
for people, stalking them, they're telling us.

00:59:02.409 --> 00:59:04.889
that actually they want official control over

00:59:04.889 --> 00:59:07.710
the policing of the campus. It couldn't be more

00:59:07.710 --> 00:59:11.170
ironic. So how do they plan to handle sexual

00:59:11.170 --> 00:59:14.750
assault, violence, anything along those lines?

00:59:14.929 --> 00:59:17.630
Funny you mentioned sexual assault, because the

00:59:17.630 --> 00:59:20.489
third witch, in addition to me and the chief

00:59:20.489 --> 00:59:26.289
of police, is our grievance officer, our grievance

00:59:26.289 --> 00:59:31.179
officer, Andy Siebert. is also an excellent human

00:59:31.179 --> 00:59:33.480
being who is very dedicated to her job and very

00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:35.619
dedicated to Evergreen and has been there for

00:59:35.619 --> 00:59:37.199
a very long time. And one of the things that

00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.440
she's been accused of is not being sensitive

00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:45.239
to allegations of sexual assault. Now, what she

00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:49.360
has not said in her own defense, she is so interested

00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.139
in protecting the college from its own worst

00:59:52.139 --> 00:59:54.719
instincts that what she has not said in her own

00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:59.059
defense is that she runs a summer camp. for girls

00:59:59.059 --> 01:00:03.340
who have been sexually assaulted. And I think

01:00:03.340 --> 01:00:06.440
she funds it out of her own pocket. So in all

01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:09.400
three cases, in my case, I'm accused of being

01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:12.639
a racist. In Stacey Brown, the police chief's

01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:15.179
case, she's accused of being a brutal, biased

01:00:15.179 --> 01:00:17.719
cop. And in Andy Siebert's case, she's accused

01:00:17.719 --> 01:00:20.880
of being insensitive to people who have been

01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:23.480
assaulted. In all three cases, not only are these

01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:25.820
things wrong, they are the opposite of right.

01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:28.619
And so I was just going to say the third thing

01:00:28.619 --> 01:00:32.159
that I wanted to say was George has to step down.

01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:35.900
The faculty has to wake up. And then everybody

01:00:35.900 --> 01:00:39.260
needs to take a look at the fact that three for

01:00:39.260 --> 01:00:43.539
three, they've gone after people in classic witch

01:00:43.539 --> 01:00:46.920
hunting style. And the person in question was

01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:48.619
the exact opposite of what they were saying.

01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:50.940
At the point you discover that you've been hunting

01:00:50.940 --> 01:00:53.440
witches and then it turns out the people in question

01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:56.809
are innocent. You have to step back and ask yourself

01:00:56.809 --> 01:00:59.349
how you got there. How did that happen to you

01:00:59.349 --> 01:01:02.469
that you ended up hunting innocent people? That

01:01:02.469 --> 01:01:04.269
should be a wake -up call for everybody involved.

01:01:04.590 --> 01:01:06.909
Well, as soon as you start talking about searching

01:01:06.909 --> 01:01:10.150
for cars and searching for individuals, my mind

01:01:10.150 --> 01:01:13.329
immediately escalates to violence. That's how

01:01:13.329 --> 01:01:16.849
my mind goes. I know mobs and I know people.

01:01:18.570 --> 01:01:20.849
I just have far too much experience with violence.

01:01:20.949 --> 01:01:23.429
And I know what happens when people ramp up ideas

01:01:23.429 --> 01:01:26.989
without a real predetermined goal. They don't

01:01:26.989 --> 01:01:30.869
have, like, what we'd like to do is get Brett

01:01:30.869 --> 01:01:33.929
and talk to him one -on -one. I want to invite

01:01:33.929 --> 01:01:36.670
him to have a debate, a one -on -one debate with

01:01:36.670 --> 01:01:38.929
someone without an audience so they could sit

01:01:38.929 --> 01:01:41.170
down and hash out these ideas. Well, hey, you're

01:01:41.170 --> 01:01:42.730
working with something. Well, how do we find

01:01:42.730 --> 01:01:45.190
him? Well, maybe he's in one of these cars. Like,

01:01:45.210 --> 01:01:46.989
that's not what they're doing. Right. Right.

01:01:47.030 --> 01:01:48.929
No, they go, we're going to. find him, but they

01:01:48.929 --> 01:01:51.550
don't have a step after they're going to find

01:01:51.550 --> 01:01:54.809
you unless they do. And it might be fucking barbaric.

01:01:54.809 --> 01:01:56.530
I mean, it might be, you know, we're going to

01:01:56.530 --> 01:01:58.429
kidnap him. We're going to, we're going to force

01:01:58.429 --> 01:02:01.150
him to read this letter. You know what I mean?

01:02:01.849 --> 01:02:05.349
It's literally hostage shit. I, I agree. And

01:02:05.349 --> 01:02:08.010
I do think, you know, I don't, I don't know.

01:02:08.050 --> 01:02:12.090
I'm not an expert on what happens when mobs ultimately

01:02:12.090 --> 01:02:15.289
do something, you know, like I think it's Mashal

01:02:15.289 --> 01:02:20.519
Khan, uh, who was, killed by a mob over supposed

01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:26.300
blasphemy, I guess last month. Was that in Turkey?

01:02:26.940 --> 01:02:29.699
I thought it was in Pakistan. It wasn't in Turkey.

01:02:29.940 --> 01:02:32.500
Okay. All right. I'm sorry. I should know. That's

01:02:32.500 --> 01:02:36.940
all right. That's a different world. It's a different

01:02:36.940 --> 01:02:39.980
world, but nonetheless, the point is a mob thinks

01:02:39.980 --> 01:02:42.820
that it's on the right track, and it's so convinced

01:02:42.820 --> 01:02:48.230
of what it believes that... It ends up doing

01:02:48.230 --> 01:02:50.510
something that it doesn't know it's capable of.

01:02:50.570 --> 01:02:52.130
And there's also a diffusion of responsibility

01:02:52.130 --> 01:02:53.949
in a large group. They're allowed to do much

01:02:53.949 --> 01:02:55.769
more horrific things you would ever do one -on

01:02:55.769 --> 01:02:58.250
-one to an individual. One hundred percent. So

01:02:58.250 --> 01:03:03.269
I don't think that anyone intends that, but I'm

01:03:03.269 --> 01:03:06.110
not sure that they ever do. Well, the ramping

01:03:06.110 --> 01:03:08.869
up of things is what terrifies me. I've just

01:03:08.869 --> 01:03:11.070
seen it too many times where people get together

01:03:11.070 --> 01:03:13.070
in large groups of people and things escalate

01:03:13.070 --> 01:03:15.210
and no one knows why. And then all of a sudden

01:03:15.210 --> 01:03:17.750
it's chaos and there's a literal feeling in the

01:03:17.750 --> 01:03:20.530
air that violence could erupt. And I don't know

01:03:20.530 --> 01:03:22.110
if there's maybe you would be able to tell me,

01:03:22.150 --> 01:03:24.940
is there some. evolutionary echo of that from

01:03:24.940 --> 01:03:26.840
back in the day when we would get invaded by

01:03:26.840 --> 01:03:28.900
large groups of people and we had to switch over

01:03:28.900 --> 01:03:31.440
immediately to some sort of a warlike mindset.

01:03:31.719 --> 01:03:33.539
I don't know what it is, but there's something

01:03:33.539 --> 01:03:36.079
really bizarre that happens to people in large

01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:38.940
groups. And if you've ever been in a concert

01:03:38.940 --> 01:03:42.400
where a riot breaks out or a stampede where things

01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:45.900
go crazy, it's scary. It's terrifying. Well,

01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:47.260
you're absolutely right about the evolutionary

01:03:47.260 --> 01:03:50.340
roots, that these are programs that exist in

01:03:50.340 --> 01:03:54.519
us for circumstances. And one of the things,

01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:57.579
you know, if I had been able to give the lecture

01:03:57.579 --> 01:03:59.400
that I proposed in the letter that got me in

01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:02.099
so much trouble with people, one of the things

01:04:02.099 --> 01:04:05.179
that I would say is that the most dangerous thing

01:04:05.179 --> 01:04:07.840
is that we have these latent programs that are

01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:10.400
waiting for evidence that it is the moment to

01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:16.010
do X, Y, or Z. haven't been in those circumstances

01:04:16.010 --> 01:04:17.989
until the moment those programs are triggered

01:04:17.989 --> 01:04:20.010
we don't even we're not even aware that human

01:04:20.010 --> 01:04:21.570
beings are capable of some of the things they're

01:04:21.570 --> 01:04:24.610
capable of so we have to guard against these

01:04:24.610 --> 01:04:27.929
things at all costs if we really you know never

01:04:27.929 --> 01:04:30.429
again is a very important concept and if never

01:04:30.429 --> 01:04:32.730
again is to mean anything we have to understand

01:04:32.730 --> 01:04:34.869
why it happens in the first place so that we

01:04:34.869 --> 01:04:38.349
can repair the world so it becomes impossible

01:04:39.019 --> 01:04:41.219
Yes, instead of giving in to the influence of

01:04:41.219 --> 01:04:43.460
these ancient programs, understanding that they're

01:04:43.460 --> 01:04:45.980
there and recognizing them when they go live.

01:04:46.619 --> 01:04:49.699
Exactly. In fact, maybe the thing that would

01:04:49.699 --> 01:04:52.659
be worth remembering is what happens to a drowning

01:04:52.659 --> 01:04:56.059
person. When a person drowns, they're very dangerous.

01:04:56.809 --> 01:04:59.730
Right. Because they their body switches on a

01:04:59.730 --> 01:05:02.210
drowning program that basically looks for anything

01:05:02.210 --> 01:05:04.469
that can be pushed down so you can get up to

01:05:04.469 --> 01:05:06.510
where the air is. Yeah. Which means that somebody

01:05:06.510 --> 01:05:10.789
can drown their closest kin by accident because

01:05:10.789 --> 01:05:12.989
a drowning program that they've never seen active

01:05:12.989 --> 01:05:15.570
until the first time they face drowning is suddenly

01:05:15.570 --> 01:05:19.300
online. Right. And so that's a simple one. But

01:05:19.300 --> 01:05:21.260
there are other ones too. There are ones for

01:05:21.260 --> 01:05:25.420
tyranny and I believe things like genocide where

01:05:25.420 --> 01:05:29.579
populations that have successfully eliminated

01:05:29.579 --> 01:05:33.719
other populations have done well. And so knowing

01:05:33.719 --> 01:05:36.559
that human beings are actually wired for genocide

01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:41.559
under some circumstances is, well, it's a sobering

01:05:41.559 --> 01:05:44.130
responsibility, but it's also... hopeful to me

01:05:44.130 --> 01:05:45.889
because if you know that it's there you can figure

01:05:45.889 --> 01:05:48.210
out what triggers it and you can I think we can

01:05:48.210 --> 01:05:51.570
rule it out by raising people in an environment

01:05:51.570 --> 01:05:54.750
where awareness of that program allows us to

01:05:54.750 --> 01:05:56.809
teach them in such a way that that program is

01:05:56.809 --> 01:05:58.730
deactivated. And that might be the only way.

01:05:58.849 --> 01:06:01.469
You must be aware of the fact that there is a

01:06:01.469 --> 01:06:04.230
potential to disassociate and decide that this

01:06:04.230 --> 01:06:07.630
group of people is the other, and that they are

01:06:07.630 --> 01:06:10.409
not you, and you could do horrific things to

01:06:10.409 --> 01:06:12.909
them. And that this is literally a part of how

01:06:12.909 --> 01:06:16.650
human beings evolved to 2017, how we got through

01:06:16.650 --> 01:06:18.929
all the horrific things that have taken place

01:06:18.929 --> 01:06:24.750
in the past. And if you think about the... The

01:06:24.750 --> 01:06:28.469
religious innovations that have occurred in the

01:06:28.469 --> 01:06:31.130
history of most of the populations on Earth today,

01:06:31.210 --> 01:06:34.250
they involve a recognition at some point where

01:06:34.250 --> 01:06:38.650
the definition of self gets broadened to a larger

01:06:38.650 --> 01:06:42.030
group. So if you think about, for example, the

01:06:42.030 --> 01:06:46.489
Golden Rule. The Golden Rule has progenitors

01:06:46.489 --> 01:06:52.210
in the Hillel tradition. But it is basically

01:06:52.210 --> 01:06:56.309
somebody saying that some large entity needs

01:06:56.309 --> 01:06:59.010
to be treated as some extension of self. And

01:06:59.010 --> 01:07:03.789
really, this may sound funny to people, but if

01:07:03.789 --> 01:07:06.889
we are to survive the next century as a species,

01:07:07.250 --> 01:07:10.099
it's going to have to be... through the recognition

01:07:10.099 --> 01:07:12.940
that actually all human beings are trapped on

01:07:12.940 --> 01:07:15.980
one tiny little planet, and we're in severe jeopardy.

01:07:15.980 --> 01:07:18.420
And really, we have to start treating each other

01:07:18.420 --> 01:07:21.960
not as other, because we will be fighting each

01:07:21.960 --> 01:07:25.880
other as the whole experiment goes to hell. We

01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:27.940
have to recognize that we actually face a common

01:07:27.940 --> 01:07:31.599
enemy, which is the unintended consequences of

01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:33.980
the system we've built. I never like to bring

01:07:33.980 --> 01:07:35.780
up Ronald Reagan as the voice of reason, but

01:07:35.780 --> 01:07:39.500
he had a fantastic quote way back in the day

01:07:39.500 --> 01:07:41.940
in one of his speeches during the Cold War where

01:07:41.940 --> 01:07:44.380
he was talking about how we would bond together

01:07:44.380 --> 01:07:47.119
if we were approached by some alien life form

01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:49.559
from another planet that threatened us, how we

01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:52.139
would all realize that we are all in this together.

01:07:52.840 --> 01:07:54.800
I had no idea that he said that. It was a great

01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:56.400
speech because the conspiracy theorists went

01:07:56.400 --> 01:07:59.800
crazy. They're like, there's aliens, man! Well,

01:07:59.900 --> 01:08:02.639
I think this is totally right. And here's the

01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:06.280
even better part, I think, which is, yeah, if

01:08:06.280 --> 01:08:09.780
there was an alien race that came to invade the

01:08:09.780 --> 01:08:13.019
Earth, we'd rally. If there was an asteroid that

01:08:13.019 --> 01:08:15.420
we had enough time to know that it was coming

01:08:15.420 --> 01:08:17.140
and that we would have to rally together to do

01:08:17.140 --> 01:08:18.539
something about it, we'd do something about it.

01:08:18.699 --> 01:08:21.500
And so it is perfectly possible for the mechanisms

01:08:21.500 --> 01:08:24.659
that... evolution built into us to fight each

01:08:24.659 --> 01:08:26.920
other that caused us to cooperate to fight other

01:08:26.920 --> 01:08:29.659
groups to be retargeted at things that aren't

01:08:29.659 --> 01:08:33.380
other groups that are problems and so what frustrates

01:08:33.380 --> 01:08:36.939
me more than i think anything else is right now

01:08:36.939 --> 01:08:40.380
we do face a common enemy and that common enemy

01:08:40.380 --> 01:08:44.569
is you know Let's say climate change would be

01:08:44.569 --> 01:08:46.890
one facet of it, but it's the system that set

01:08:46.890 --> 01:08:49.470
climate change in motion, which has also given

01:08:49.470 --> 01:08:52.989
us nuclear reactors that are unstable and difficult

01:08:52.989 --> 01:08:56.590
to control. It's given us economic policies that

01:08:56.590 --> 01:08:59.069
are going to cause us to destabilize as a result

01:08:59.069 --> 01:09:01.869
of the concentration of well -being and power

01:09:01.869 --> 01:09:04.060
in a small number of hands. Those are common

01:09:04.060 --> 01:09:06.680
enemies. And if we allowed the circuitry that

01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:09.199
is in us to be triggered, that allows us to fight

01:09:09.199 --> 01:09:11.579
a common enemy, actually, we would be quite united

01:09:11.579 --> 01:09:15.100
at the moment and for a good cause. Which is

01:09:15.100 --> 01:09:16.939
one of the more disturbing things about Trump

01:09:16.939 --> 01:09:19.159
pulling out of the Paris climate agreement is

01:09:19.159 --> 01:09:21.600
that what what it says is that we're not in this

01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:24.899
together. I mean, even more so than it says that

01:09:24.899 --> 01:09:29.600
these guys are. I mean, he has. advisors and

01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:32.579
this EPA guy is a very dangerous character that's

01:09:32.579 --> 01:09:34.840
a climate change denier and there's so much anti

01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:36.680
-science going on in this administration you

01:09:36.680 --> 01:09:38.859
wouldn't even know where to begin, right? But

01:09:38.859 --> 01:09:41.619
one of the real problems is that we're moving

01:09:41.619 --> 01:09:44.260
away from this group of people that's trying

01:09:44.260 --> 01:09:46.500
to figure out what to do about emissions. What

01:09:46.500 --> 01:09:48.380
do we do about all this garbage? What do we do

01:09:48.380 --> 01:09:50.520
about all this waste? And it's not even necessarily

01:09:50.520 --> 01:09:54.949
just about climate change. It's about... sustainability.

01:09:54.949 --> 01:09:58.050
It's about what are we doing with the byproduct

01:09:58.050 --> 01:10:01.529
of civilization? If there's one thing that should

01:10:01.529 --> 01:10:04.109
cut across political lines, it's that question.

01:10:04.270 --> 01:10:06.449
What do we do about the things that jeopardize

01:10:06.449 --> 01:10:08.569
us all together? And if it's one thing that should

01:10:08.569 --> 01:10:10.949
disturb us about capitalism, the number one thing

01:10:10.949 --> 01:10:15.170
is putting profit ahead of the environment that

01:10:15.170 --> 01:10:18.029
we literally need to sustain life. And that's

01:10:18.029 --> 01:10:19.390
something they're trying to do with bringing

01:10:19.390 --> 01:10:23.020
back fucking coal. Of all things. And they have

01:10:23.020 --> 01:10:25.260
these coal miners on TV and they don't even agree

01:10:25.260 --> 01:10:27.460
with it. They interviewed a bunch of coal miners

01:10:27.460 --> 01:10:29.920
today that were President Trump supporters. They

01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:31.880
were happy and they voted for Trump because he's

01:10:31.880 --> 01:10:33.619
going to bring back coal. And they're like, well,

01:10:33.699 --> 01:10:36.140
I don't know about this. Why is he stepping away

01:10:36.140 --> 01:10:38.260
from the climate change thing, though? Like even

01:10:38.260 --> 01:10:41.180
people in the coal mining industry are torn on

01:10:41.180 --> 01:10:43.960
this. I mean, this is a very dark time in that

01:10:43.960 --> 01:10:48.260
way. Very dark. And, you know, and ironic, too,

01:10:48.439 --> 01:10:50.600
because I mean, we're now behind the eight ball

01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:53.140
because we've put this off for so long. We should

01:10:53.140 --> 01:10:55.859
have started doing this 25 or 30 years ago. But

01:10:55.859 --> 01:10:59.819
even now, it is actually not as hard as people

01:10:59.819 --> 01:11:02.939
think to figure out how the world might function

01:11:02.939 --> 01:11:05.680
that didn't create this jeopardy as a matter

01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:09.539
of byproducts of everyday activity. It's actually

01:11:09.539 --> 01:11:11.939
not that difficult. But the system is built to

01:11:11.939 --> 01:11:15.000
frustrate it. So in the same sense, if you step

01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:17.699
back from the last presidential election and

01:11:17.699 --> 01:11:21.520
you think about how is it that we ended up with

01:11:21.520 --> 01:11:24.899
two such lousy candidates for this position with

01:11:24.899 --> 01:11:27.920
such power, something in the system has to be

01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:30.840
off that we don't end up with any viable candidates

01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:35.420
for that office. And it's the same problem. We

01:11:35.420 --> 01:11:39.340
are caught in loops that prevent proper solution

01:11:39.340 --> 01:11:42.420
making. It's not that solution making. isn't

01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:45.260
possible. It's that solution making is not someplace

01:11:45.260 --> 01:11:49.680
we can go from here because of mundane reasons

01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:53.479
in our system that are ultimately... going to

01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:55.220
kill us if we're not careful. Well, it's also

01:11:55.220 --> 01:11:57.020
such a complicated structure that outside of

01:11:57.020 --> 01:11:59.319
completely radical change, like restructuring

01:11:59.319 --> 01:12:01.579
everything from the bottom up, like tearing it

01:12:01.579 --> 01:12:04.119
down literally to the foundation and rebuilding

01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:06.199
it. How else are you going to fix this thing

01:12:06.199 --> 01:12:08.720
with lobbyists and special interest groups and

01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:11.180
congressmen and representative government? It's

01:12:11.180 --> 01:12:14.409
like there's so many. different areas that allow

01:12:14.409 --> 01:12:17.630
for the possibility of corruption and influence

01:12:17.630 --> 01:12:22.210
and just cronyism. It's such a dark and twisted

01:12:22.210 --> 01:12:25.350
corridor that you enter into if you consider

01:12:25.350 --> 01:12:28.890
any kind of reform. Well, it can't be reform,

01:12:29.189 --> 01:12:34.229
and we can't tear it down either. Well, what

01:12:34.229 --> 01:12:36.630
would we do? Well, that's an interesting question,

01:12:36.670 --> 01:12:39.050
and I must say it's something that a number of

01:12:39.050 --> 01:12:41.229
friends of mine and I have been working on for

01:12:41.229 --> 01:12:45.789
some time. There are answers which five, seven

01:12:45.789 --> 01:12:47.649
years ago I wouldn't have thought possible that

01:12:47.649 --> 01:12:50.670
I now believe actually are possible. And so what

01:12:50.670 --> 01:12:53.510
we're really talking about, we can't have revolution.

01:12:53.630 --> 01:12:56.609
We can't afford it, nor will it work. The power

01:12:56.609 --> 01:12:59.590
arrayed against revolution is so immense that

01:12:59.590 --> 01:13:02.989
it's inconceivable that it could function. We

01:13:02.989 --> 01:13:06.180
also can't afford... a disruption massive enough

01:13:06.180 --> 01:13:09.560
to cause the system to restructure on its own,

01:13:09.640 --> 01:13:11.539
if for no other reason than the fact that we've

01:13:11.539 --> 01:13:14.380
got more than 400 nuclear reactors on Earth today

01:13:14.380 --> 01:13:17.520
that require constant inputs of power or they

01:13:17.520 --> 01:13:19.859
melt down and spill not only the contents of

01:13:19.859 --> 01:13:23.220
the reactors but the contents of the spent fuel

01:13:23.220 --> 01:13:26.340
pools where we've stored decades' worth of spent

01:13:26.340 --> 01:13:30.060
material. So basically we have to restructure

01:13:30.060 --> 01:13:33.359
the system. without letting it collapse and without

01:13:33.359 --> 01:13:37.079
confronting it in the traditional way. So we

01:13:37.079 --> 01:13:39.600
need effectively revolutionary change without

01:13:39.600 --> 01:13:45.000
revolution. However, notice that your life today

01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:48.279
doesn't look all that much like your life 30

01:13:48.279 --> 01:13:50.880
years ago from the point of view of how you go

01:13:50.880 --> 01:13:52.699
about things, how you navigate around the world.

01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:56.420
Things sweep across civilization in a market

01:13:56.420 --> 01:14:02.869
system based on utility. that model can also

01:14:02.869 --> 01:14:07.109
be used to replace the system that we have currently.

01:14:07.949 --> 01:14:11.229
So in essence, if you think forward, what is

01:14:11.229 --> 01:14:13.630
the world going to look like 20 years from now?

01:14:14.289 --> 01:14:16.289
It's very hard to know because you know how much

01:14:16.289 --> 01:14:18.789
change has come in the last 20 years. So there

01:14:18.789 --> 01:14:20.930
will be revolutionary change. At the moment,

01:14:21.010 --> 01:14:23.010
it will be dictated by a market, and it will

01:14:23.010 --> 01:14:25.949
basically give us more of what we think we want

01:14:25.949 --> 01:14:28.810
rather than what we actually need. However, the

01:14:28.810 --> 01:14:32.449
same mechanism that causes technologies to sweep

01:14:32.449 --> 01:14:37.270
across civilization can be utilized to have meaningful

01:14:37.270 --> 01:14:40.130
change in the way we interrelate with each other

01:14:40.130 --> 01:14:42.229
and the way we govern ourselves sweep across

01:14:42.229 --> 01:14:46.609
civilization. So that's the project that we've

01:14:46.609 --> 01:14:49.390
been working on behind the scenes. So what is

01:14:49.390 --> 01:14:52.369
the project? How does it work? Well, it involves

01:14:52.369 --> 01:14:54.579
different people with... Different expertise,

01:14:54.779 --> 01:14:59.619
and there are those who are expert in the technological

01:14:59.619 --> 01:15:04.060
aspects, in other words, identifying those technologies

01:15:04.060 --> 01:15:07.420
that actually stand a good chance of replacing

01:15:07.420 --> 01:15:09.479
the dangerous stuff that runs civilization now.

01:15:09.619 --> 01:15:12.020
There are those of us who are involved in the

01:15:12.020 --> 01:15:14.659
game theoretic aspects of what it is that keeps

01:15:14.659 --> 01:15:18.039
the current system stabilized as it is and what

01:15:18.039 --> 01:15:21.960
would have to change in order to replace it.

01:15:22.710 --> 01:15:26.930
So anyway, it's a complicated effort, but it

01:15:26.930 --> 01:15:30.569
is not – I am hopeful in a way that I wasn't

01:15:30.569 --> 01:15:36.670
back during Occupy, let's say, because I no longer

01:15:36.670 --> 01:15:38.970
think that the only route forward is one of the

01:15:38.970 --> 01:15:41.789
traditional modes that we've seen. So do you

01:15:41.789 --> 01:15:43.390
think that it's going to be a slow integration

01:15:43.390 --> 01:15:45.890
of technology into people's lives to the point

01:15:45.890 --> 01:15:48.970
where it's going to – affect the system itself

01:15:48.970 --> 01:15:50.770
to the point where the current system, the way

01:15:50.770 --> 01:15:53.109
it works, just won't operate the way it does?

01:15:53.390 --> 01:15:55.789
No, not really. What are you saying specifically?

01:15:56.130 --> 01:15:58.090
What I'm saying specifically is that people have

01:15:58.090 --> 01:16:03.250
been shut out of the gains of civilization, and

01:16:03.250 --> 01:16:08.670
they have been fed a small portion of the phony

01:16:08.670 --> 01:16:12.449
growth that our system generates to placate them.

01:16:12.569 --> 01:16:16.069
They've also been threatened with austerity.

01:16:16.539 --> 01:16:18.899
which is largely a false threat. In other words,

01:16:18.899 --> 01:16:20.739
they've been told, yes, we could do something

01:16:20.739 --> 01:16:23.039
different, but you're going to have to give up

01:16:23.039 --> 01:16:26.899
most of the things that you value. So how about

01:16:26.899 --> 01:16:33.579
it? And in fact, the world could be a very exciting

01:16:33.579 --> 01:16:40.060
place to transform. were to recognize the real

01:16:40.060 --> 01:16:42.899
landscape that we face rather than the story

01:16:42.899 --> 01:16:45.399
that has been portrayed that has told us that

01:16:45.399 --> 01:16:49.020
we really don't have any good options, it seems

01:16:49.020 --> 01:16:52.060
that there is still time, though, frankly, the

01:16:52.060 --> 01:16:54.920
clock is ticking. So what would be the steps

01:16:54.920 --> 01:16:57.420
that would be taken in order to make this a reality?

01:16:57.899 --> 01:17:00.460
Well, the question is, do I want to say that

01:17:00.460 --> 01:17:04.680
out loud here where the entities that want to

01:17:04.680 --> 01:17:07.439
oppose it know exactly what it is? before it

01:17:07.439 --> 01:17:10.000
comes. I don't know how smart that is. What I

01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:11.840
will say is that there are a good number of us

01:17:11.840 --> 01:17:14.840
working on the puzzle. We're serious about it.

01:17:15.140 --> 01:17:21.819
And the things that would typically be used to

01:17:21.819 --> 01:17:25.159
dismiss us ought not be. We're not looking to

01:17:25.159 --> 01:17:30.199
be the head of some system that enriches us.

01:17:30.750 --> 01:17:33.510
We're looking to make the planet function in

01:17:33.510 --> 01:17:35.970
a way that serves everyone. So do you think there's

01:17:35.970 --> 01:17:37.750
some sort of conspiracy to stop this? Like if

01:17:37.750 --> 01:17:39.250
you actually bring it up, you think that there

01:17:39.250 --> 01:17:41.729
would actually be people that would make or take

01:17:41.729 --> 01:17:44.090
active measures in order to hold it off at the

01:17:44.090 --> 01:17:46.350
pass? I don't think it's exactly like that. I

01:17:46.350 --> 01:17:52.310
think there is a structure that has emerged that

01:17:52.310 --> 01:17:58.050
exists. Administrations come and go, but there's

01:17:58.050 --> 01:18:00.800
a structure that doesn't. And it seems to have

01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:04.859
a central principle behind it, which is it doesn't

01:18:04.859 --> 01:18:08.140
like change that it can't control. Change is

01:18:08.140 --> 01:18:10.180
one thing. Change happens. But it's not interested

01:18:10.180 --> 01:18:16.039
in change that could upend it. So anyway, the

01:18:16.039 --> 01:18:21.119
reason that we end up with a battle between a

01:18:21.119 --> 01:18:24.619
non -viable Republican and a non -viable Democrat

01:18:24.619 --> 01:18:28.880
is that they have passed a test. in which they

01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:32.880
do not threaten the fundamental structures underneath.

01:18:33.220 --> 01:18:35.180
In fact, Trump may actually be a violation of

01:18:35.180 --> 01:18:36.640
that. He may actually threaten those structures

01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:38.159
and they may be trying to figure out what to

01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:42.640
do about them. But in general, what we have is

01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:46.300
a system that filters on the way towards the

01:18:46.300 --> 01:18:48.460
levers of power such that anybody who gets there

01:18:48.460 --> 01:18:51.340
wouldn't use them. in a destabilizing fashion.

01:18:51.699 --> 01:18:53.939
Which is why we saw the DNC conspire against

01:18:53.939 --> 01:18:56.760
Bernie Sanders. Absolutely. We saw them conspire

01:18:56.760 --> 01:18:58.380
in the most direct terms and then we've seen

01:18:58.380 --> 01:19:00.699
them in court defend it by saying they had every

01:19:00.699 --> 01:19:02.880
right to do it rather than denying it. Yeah.

01:19:03.880 --> 01:19:07.779
So anyway, I'm not, you know, it's too easy to

01:19:07.779 --> 01:19:11.390
say conspiracy and it is too... It's too simplistic

01:19:11.390 --> 01:19:13.729
because it implies that people got together in

01:19:13.729 --> 01:19:16.090
a room and said things out loud. And that does

01:19:16.090 --> 01:19:18.590
happen sometimes. But it also happens through

01:19:18.590 --> 01:19:22.010
another mechanism, a mechanism of what scientifically

01:19:22.010 --> 01:19:25.250
we would call emergence, where those structures

01:19:25.250 --> 01:19:29.270
that frustrate change outcompete structures that

01:19:29.270 --> 01:19:33.619
allow change. So it may be that what we have

01:19:33.619 --> 01:19:37.800
are forces that resist change reflexively without

01:19:37.800 --> 01:19:39.960
knowing what they're doing the same way, you

01:19:39.960 --> 01:19:41.859
know, a tree grows toward the light without knowing

01:19:41.859 --> 01:19:45.399
what it's doing. Oh, OK. Don't you think, though,

01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:48.579
that there'd be some benefit to discussing these

01:19:48.579 --> 01:19:53.380
potential solutions to these issues out loud?

01:19:53.859 --> 01:19:56.420
And then people would sort of like pick it up

01:19:56.420 --> 01:19:59.439
and act on it, especially given this. Enormous

01:19:59.439 --> 01:20:03.800
platform? I do. So it's not that I don't want

01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:06.140
to talk about them. I mean, in fact, we held

01:20:06.140 --> 01:20:10.039
what was called an unconference in Palo Alto

01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:13.130
several months ago. So it's not that we don't

01:20:13.130 --> 01:20:14.550
talk about them out loud. What I'm concerned

01:20:14.550 --> 01:20:17.090
about is that, A, I'm only one of the people

01:20:17.090 --> 01:20:19.710
involved. And so, you know, I have my area of

01:20:19.710 --> 01:20:23.010
expertise in this group. But there are many other

01:20:23.010 --> 01:20:25.689
areas of expertise that I can't speak to as directly.

01:20:26.750 --> 01:20:30.130
So anyway, I'm concerned about unearthing the

01:20:30.130 --> 01:20:33.189
thing in a place where it will be a cartoon version

01:20:33.189 --> 01:20:35.130
of something that's actually more sophisticated

01:20:35.130 --> 01:20:39.149
than that. I understand. I'm not averse to answering

01:20:39.149 --> 01:20:42.229
questions if you got them. What would be the

01:20:42.229 --> 01:20:45.449
first step? Well, the first step would probably

01:20:45.449 --> 01:20:52.130
involve a blockchain currency that had strengths

01:20:52.130 --> 01:20:57.609
connected to it that made it competitively superior

01:20:57.609 --> 01:21:02.109
to something like the dollar. In other words,

01:21:02.210 --> 01:21:06.449
the dollar is a flawed entity in multiple regards.

01:21:06.729 --> 01:21:11.310
But the dollar depends on... our valuing it.

01:21:11.470 --> 01:21:14.029
And the thing about blockchain currencies is

01:21:14.029 --> 01:21:17.789
that blockchain currencies can be exchanged between

01:21:17.789 --> 01:21:23.050
entities that have an agreement about preferring

01:21:23.050 --> 01:21:25.569
them. So, for example, a group of people could

01:21:25.569 --> 01:21:29.029
decide to pay each other in blockchain currency

01:21:29.029 --> 01:21:34.010
of some kind based on ideals that are not the

01:21:34.010 --> 01:21:37.909
same ones on which our nation, for example, is

01:21:37.909 --> 01:21:41.380
founded. you could agree to a higher set of standards

01:21:41.380 --> 01:21:45.619
for something and agree to prefer each other

01:21:45.619 --> 01:21:49.180
in the context of business. So you would do business

01:21:49.180 --> 01:21:51.699
with those who had also agreed to the same higher

01:21:51.699 --> 01:21:55.100
set of principles, and that currency could therefore

01:21:55.100 --> 01:22:00.880
displace something like the dollar. Well, it'd

01:22:00.880 --> 01:22:03.420
be fascinating to see. I mean, I know that Bitcoin

01:22:03.420 --> 01:22:06.119
and blockchain and a lot of these different cryptocurrencies

01:22:06.119 --> 01:22:09.920
are gaining momentum. And in fact, Bitcoin, weren't

01:22:09.920 --> 01:22:11.880
we just talking about this, is higher now than

01:22:11.880 --> 01:22:15.260
it has been like literally in years. Ever? Ever.

01:22:15.340 --> 01:22:19.279
Yeah. So there's some momentum in that regard.

01:22:19.319 --> 01:22:22.479
It'd be nice to see them use. Side by side, you

01:22:22.479 --> 01:22:24.920
know, to see if it could be possible that it

01:22:24.920 --> 01:22:26.960
could gain more momentum to get to the point

01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:29.380
where it's right now you bring up. I'm going

01:22:29.380 --> 01:22:30.880
to buy some of Bitcoin. People think you're a

01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:34.220
freak. Right. Like my friend and Andreas Antonopoulos,

01:22:34.279 --> 01:22:36.180
who's big in the Bitcoin movement. I've had him

01:22:36.180 --> 01:22:37.739
on the podcast a few times. He's written books

01:22:37.739 --> 01:22:39.979
on it and he does everything in Bitcoin. He's

01:22:39.979 --> 01:22:42.500
paid in Bitcoin. He buys his airline tickets

01:22:42.500 --> 01:22:44.920
in Bitcoin. He pays his rent in Bitcoin. I mean,

01:22:44.979 --> 01:22:48.579
he's he's deep, but maybe what is one of a thousand

01:22:48.579 --> 01:22:50.909
people in the world that might do that? Right.

01:22:51.489 --> 01:22:54.010
Although, you know, everything transformative

01:22:54.010 --> 01:22:56.930
starts in a small minority of people doing it

01:22:56.930 --> 01:22:59.689
somewhere. So what I would say is that the cryptocurrency

01:22:59.689 --> 01:23:02.609
isn't enough in and of itself. You have to couple

01:23:02.609 --> 01:23:05.329
it with the structures that are capable of solving

01:23:05.329 --> 01:23:08.689
the other problems of civilization. Like someone

01:23:08.689 --> 01:23:11.289
figuring out what to do with nuclear waste. That

01:23:11.289 --> 01:23:13.569
would be a nice one. That's a biggie. That's

01:23:13.569 --> 01:23:18.869
a biggie. And it's high on my list of... let's

01:23:18.869 --> 01:23:22.130
say, fears is that those nuclear reactors are

01:23:22.130 --> 01:23:25.069
so dangerous by virtue of what it is that keeps

01:23:25.069 --> 01:23:27.770
them stable day in and day out, that really,

01:23:27.909 --> 01:23:30.670
if people understood the danger they face based

01:23:30.670 --> 01:23:33.449
on those reactors and the spent fuel that they

01:23:33.449 --> 01:23:37.930
have, people would be alarmed. Well, if people

01:23:37.930 --> 01:23:39.789
just paid attention to Fukushima, I mean, just

01:23:39.789 --> 01:23:42.010
look at what's happening and know how many of

01:23:42.010 --> 01:23:43.829
those there are. And here's the other issue,

01:23:43.949 --> 01:23:46.609
you know, I've talked to people before and There's

01:23:46.609 --> 01:23:51.189
this – I mean it's really funny how when you

01:23:51.189 --> 01:23:53.130
subscribe to a certain ideology, whether it's

01:23:53.130 --> 01:23:55.750
a liberal ideology or whether it's a conservative

01:23:55.750 --> 01:23:59.710
ideology, you immediately adopt a series of beliefs

01:23:59.710 --> 01:24:02.670
that go along with that. And one of them on the

01:24:02.670 --> 01:24:05.470
right is that nuclear power is clean energy.

01:24:05.810 --> 01:24:09.250
And my argument to that has always been we've

01:24:09.250 --> 01:24:14.310
only had it for 60 years and look how many places

01:24:14.310 --> 01:24:17.699
you can't even go anymore. I mean, Fukushima,

01:24:17.939 --> 01:24:21.380
Chernobyl, what is it, Three Mile Island? Three

01:24:21.380 --> 01:24:23.439
Mile Island. I don't know, Three Mile Island,

01:24:23.539 --> 01:24:27.060
can you go there now? I wouldn't go there. It'd

01:24:27.060 --> 01:24:29.000
be the best of those three, but we also have

01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:31.800
the Whip Project in New Mexico. Yeah, the number

01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:33.520
of places on Earth you can just simply no longer

01:24:33.520 --> 01:24:35.880
go is growing. Places in Nevada where they just

01:24:35.880 --> 01:24:37.779
bury the waste. Where they just bury the waste.

01:24:38.060 --> 01:24:43.270
Hanford. It just had a huge collapse. So let's

01:24:43.270 --> 01:24:45.970
put it this way. We now know how dangerous this

01:24:45.970 --> 01:24:48.609
technology is. And we also know that what we

01:24:48.609 --> 01:24:51.050
were told when it was invented, I mean, everything

01:24:51.050 --> 01:24:53.250
we were told, we were told electricity too cheap

01:24:53.250 --> 01:24:56.010
to meter for one thing. We were also told we'll

01:24:56.010 --> 01:24:58.029
figure out what to do with the waste. Not true

01:24:58.029 --> 01:25:00.109
and not true. Not true. And here's what's really

01:25:00.109 --> 01:25:02.609
terrifying. I mean, every now and then we, you

01:25:02.609 --> 01:25:04.430
know, they're digging in Mexico City and they

01:25:04.430 --> 01:25:06.470
find some ancient Aztec ruins and they have to

01:25:06.470 --> 01:25:07.890
stop construction because they didn't know it

01:25:07.890 --> 01:25:10.609
was there. What the fuck happens if 100 years

01:25:10.609 --> 01:25:12.750
from now they dig into the Nevada desert and

01:25:12.750 --> 01:25:16.850
just tap right into a chamber of spent fuel rods

01:25:16.850 --> 01:25:18.930
and kill everybody? Well, in fact, that's one

01:25:18.930 --> 01:25:20.609
of the problems that they've tried to solve is

01:25:20.609 --> 01:25:24.470
how do you make a sign for people, you know,

01:25:24.529 --> 01:25:26.489
a thousand years in the future? How about 100

01:25:26.489 --> 01:25:30.449
years? Right. We have no idea how you would warn

01:25:30.449 --> 01:25:33.550
them off. Nor are these things stable. I mean,

01:25:33.569 --> 01:25:35.609
the thing about the whip project in New Mexico

01:25:35.609 --> 01:25:39.430
is that. This was supposed to be stable for thousands

01:25:39.430 --> 01:25:41.989
of years, and we had this explosion that leaked

01:25:41.989 --> 01:25:48.529
plutonium after decades. The thing was not stable

01:25:48.529 --> 01:25:52.210
the way we were told it was. So anyway, we have

01:25:52.210 --> 01:25:54.109
this terrible problem, and what to do with the

01:25:54.109 --> 01:25:55.789
waste you've already got is obviously a huge

01:25:55.789 --> 01:25:57.770
issue. Not making more of it would be a really

01:25:57.770 --> 01:26:01.750
good idea. Yeah, and there have been some solutions

01:26:01.750 --> 01:26:05.649
that someone... There was a really young kid,

01:26:05.810 --> 01:26:08.149
I believe, that came out with some radical proposal

01:26:08.149 --> 01:26:12.569
for taking the nuclear waste and converting it

01:26:12.569 --> 01:26:14.729
into energy that could power cities for thousands

01:26:14.729 --> 01:26:18.890
of years, whether or not it's viable. But, I

01:26:18.890 --> 01:26:21.970
mean, it's totally possible. I mean, look, if

01:26:21.970 --> 01:26:24.930
someone can come up with nuclear energy in the

01:26:24.930 --> 01:26:27.069
first place, the ability to split an atom and

01:26:27.069 --> 01:26:30.220
power a city. Maybe it is possible that someone

01:26:30.220 --> 01:26:31.920
could figure out what to do with that way, some

01:26:31.920 --> 01:26:35.340
new sort of radical approach to looking at it.

01:26:35.359 --> 01:26:37.720
But you can't just leave it. No. You can't just

01:26:37.720 --> 01:26:39.579
keep doing what we're doing over and over again

01:26:39.579 --> 01:26:41.420
and hope that we don't make more spots where

01:26:41.420 --> 01:26:43.520
you can't live. Well, I mean, the first thing

01:26:43.520 --> 01:26:46.689
is. There is one thing we can do with it that's

01:26:46.689 --> 01:26:48.590
better that we already have the technology to

01:26:48.590 --> 01:26:51.029
do, and there's no excuse for not doing it, which

01:26:51.029 --> 01:26:52.810
is that all of the stuff that's sitting in pools

01:26:52.810 --> 01:26:55.590
that has to be actively cooled, after something

01:26:55.590 --> 01:26:58.050
like five years, it can be put in dry cask storage,

01:26:58.250 --> 01:27:01.449
which ain't perfect, but at least it doesn't

01:27:01.449 --> 01:27:04.170
require some system to actively keep it from

01:27:04.170 --> 01:27:06.529
boiling over. And doesn't need electricity in

01:27:06.529 --> 01:27:08.609
order to cool it, which is the issue that happened

01:27:08.609 --> 01:27:10.550
in Fukushima. And that's strictly a matter of

01:27:10.550 --> 01:27:13.159
money, right? We could do that. tomorrow, we

01:27:13.159 --> 01:27:14.960
could just require it. And we should because

01:27:14.960 --> 01:27:18.000
it's vastly safer. We could also potentially,

01:27:18.180 --> 01:27:20.880
there are ways to take the spent fuel and to

01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:23.500
burn it down that does involve other kinds of

01:27:23.500 --> 01:27:26.920
reactors. But ultimately, ultimately, I can't

01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:31.140
understand why we have not made an immense investment

01:27:31.140 --> 01:27:35.800
in fusion power. Were we to discover the ability

01:27:35.800 --> 01:27:39.239
to make viable fusion power, which I believe

01:27:39.239 --> 01:27:43.479
we know is possible. we not only would be able

01:27:43.479 --> 01:27:46.319
to power civilization without warming the climate,

01:27:46.479 --> 01:27:48.760
but we would also be able to pull carbon out

01:27:48.760 --> 01:27:50.439
of the atmosphere if it turns out that we need

01:27:50.439 --> 01:27:52.680
to do that. If you have effectively an unlimited

01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:55.000
source of power, you can take carbon out of the

01:27:55.000 --> 01:27:57.439
atmosphere and you could turn it into building

01:27:57.439 --> 01:27:59.880
materials that were stable for thousands of years.

01:28:00.720 --> 01:28:05.020
And the tiny amount that we spend on fusion research

01:28:05.020 --> 01:28:09.720
is inexplicable to me. Yeah. We've gotten way

01:28:09.720 --> 01:28:12.180
away from the original subject, but I think this

01:28:12.180 --> 01:28:14.380
is all very important stuff. But I wanted to

01:28:14.380 --> 01:28:16.779
talk to you about evolutionary biology. All right.

01:28:16.880 --> 01:28:20.779
And being someone who teaches that and being

01:28:20.779 --> 01:28:26.260
as that's your discipline and seeing all of these.

01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:29.880
I mean, what is it like being a professor and

01:28:29.880 --> 01:28:32.420
being someone who's studying this stuff and then

01:28:32.420 --> 01:28:36.479
seeing all these weird traits and all these weird.

01:28:37.529 --> 01:28:40.850
personality aspects demonstrate themselves in

01:28:40.850 --> 01:28:44.329
these times of crisis, like seeing these situations.

01:28:45.229 --> 01:28:48.090
You're talking about people. Yes. Well, that's

01:28:48.090 --> 01:28:49.949
an interesting question. I have become fascinated.

01:28:50.069 --> 01:28:53.369
I didn't start out studying people, but the longer

01:28:53.369 --> 01:28:55.729
I proceed in evolutionary biology, the more interested

01:28:55.729 --> 01:29:01.250
I am in people. And let's put it this way. Sometimes

01:29:01.250 --> 01:29:04.500
something is surprising, but in general. If you

01:29:04.500 --> 01:29:06.520
have the right tools to understand people at

01:29:06.520 --> 01:29:09.319
an evolutionary level, things make a certain

01:29:09.319 --> 01:29:13.260
amount of sense. I have something I say to students

01:29:13.260 --> 01:29:16.060
frequently, which is if a situation is confusing

01:29:16.060 --> 01:29:19.659
with people, very often it makes more sense if

01:29:19.659 --> 01:29:22.279
you turn the sound all the way down so you can't

01:29:22.279 --> 01:29:24.819
hear what they're actually saying. Because very

01:29:24.819 --> 01:29:27.899
often what's being enacted between people isn't

01:29:27.899 --> 01:29:29.979
really about the content of what they're saying.

01:29:30.079 --> 01:29:32.920
It's about something else. And so let's take,

01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:36.800
for example, My first project, when I was an

01:29:36.800 --> 01:29:39.960
undergraduate, I was studying with a very famous

01:29:39.960 --> 01:29:42.859
evolutionary biologist named Bob Trivers. And

01:29:42.859 --> 01:29:47.500
I wrote a paper for his class, and it was about

01:29:47.500 --> 01:29:51.859
the Holocaust. It was about the, really, I was

01:29:51.859 --> 01:29:54.579
testing the question. At the time, it was relatively

01:29:54.579 --> 01:29:59.020
commonplace to hear that Hitler was insane. And

01:29:59.020 --> 01:30:01.699
something about that didn't ring true to me.

01:30:02.039 --> 01:30:03.960
And I wanted to know, evolutionarily speaking,

01:30:04.300 --> 01:30:07.939
was he insane? And in studying that question,

01:30:07.979 --> 01:30:10.539
it became very clear that insane was the wrong

01:30:10.539 --> 01:30:13.920
description, that he was a monster. But he was

01:30:13.920 --> 01:30:16.760
a rational monster from the point of view of

01:30:16.760 --> 01:30:22.399
advancing German genes. And that was a very troubling

01:30:22.399 --> 01:30:27.119
discovery to me, that in effect, what he was

01:30:27.119 --> 01:30:34.140
doing was, I mean, It's the worst thing imaginable.

01:30:34.159 --> 01:30:36.380
But from the point of view of genes that are

01:30:36.380 --> 01:30:38.920
attempting to spread across the globe and exclude

01:30:38.920 --> 01:30:42.319
alternative genes from access to resources, it

01:30:42.319 --> 01:30:45.260
was perfectly reasonable. Not only what he did

01:30:45.260 --> 01:30:49.279
to Jews and homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses,

01:30:49.279 --> 01:30:52.920
but the military plan. The future of Germany

01:30:52.920 --> 01:30:56.380
lies in Russia. The idea was that this was actually

01:30:56.380 --> 01:31:00.260
a sophisticated plan that would have advanced

01:31:00.260 --> 01:31:04.380
the cause of spreading German genes spectacularly

01:31:04.380 --> 01:31:07.460
had, frankly, so many million Russians not been

01:31:07.460 --> 01:31:09.720
ready to give their lives to turn the German

01:31:09.720 --> 01:31:12.880
war machine around. So what I'm saying, this

01:31:12.880 --> 01:31:14.859
has to be dealt with carefully because people

01:31:14.859 --> 01:31:16.600
hear you say that and they think that you're

01:31:16.600 --> 01:31:18.859
justifying it. But, you know, I'm, of course,

01:31:18.920 --> 01:31:23.159
a Jew. whose ancestors were from Europe. There's

01:31:23.159 --> 01:31:26.359
no part of me that is in any way okay with what

01:31:26.359 --> 01:31:29.260
happened. Quite the opposite. But understanding

01:31:29.260 --> 01:31:33.520
that even though the Darwinism that Hitler was

01:31:33.520 --> 01:31:37.279
deploying was deformed and not accurate and defensible

01:31:37.279 --> 01:31:40.979
in a logical sense, the plan he was advancing

01:31:40.979 --> 01:31:45.539
was German genes attempting to take over a larger

01:31:45.539 --> 01:31:48.970
fraction of... the resources that planet Earth

01:31:48.970 --> 01:31:51.289
has to offer than they had available to them

01:31:51.289 --> 01:31:57.529
at that point in the 30s. So anyway, what I'm

01:31:57.529 --> 01:32:01.710
trying to say is that there's something that

01:32:01.710 --> 01:32:04.750
we often teach students first when we get to

01:32:04.750 --> 01:32:06.329
them, which is called the naturalistic fallacy.

01:32:06.430 --> 01:32:08.229
It means that just because something is true

01:32:08.229 --> 01:32:10.229
doesn't mean it's good, that it ought to be true.

01:32:10.560 --> 01:32:12.920
And so discovering the nature of something like

01:32:12.920 --> 01:32:15.600
the Holocaust is very important in the sense

01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:17.859
that it allows you to grapple with it logically,

01:32:18.100 --> 01:32:20.720
but as you're grappling with it logically, people

01:32:20.720 --> 01:32:22.600
want to imagine that you're saying it was okay,

01:32:22.840 --> 01:32:26.159
and that's the opposite. There are many things

01:32:26.159 --> 01:32:28.300
that are true for evolutionary reasons that are

01:32:28.300 --> 01:32:30.560
completely unacceptable, and understanding what

01:32:30.560 --> 01:32:33.479
those things are... gives you a pretty good shot

01:32:33.479 --> 01:32:37.100
at preventing them from unfolding. It also really

01:32:37.100 --> 01:32:39.260
is a problem when something becomes taboo to

01:32:39.260 --> 01:32:43.779
even consider or to look at. You can't look at

01:32:43.779 --> 01:32:46.000
the idea that he wasn't insane and that he was

01:32:46.000 --> 01:32:49.300
in fact rational in rationalizing his horrific

01:32:49.300 --> 01:32:52.340
acts. And that there was some sort of a plan

01:32:52.340 --> 01:32:55.479
to it all. And you would say that even by enacting

01:32:55.479 --> 01:32:57.579
that plan, you would be insane in terms of how

01:32:57.579 --> 01:33:00.159
you think of the world and I think of the world.

01:33:00.319 --> 01:33:03.520
Like if we found out that Jamie over here was

01:33:03.520 --> 01:33:05.579
thinking about starting a master race and killing

01:33:05.579 --> 01:33:07.199
everybody off, we would go, oh, Jamie's gone

01:33:07.199 --> 01:33:11.020
insane. And to say, no, he's not insane, he has

01:33:11.020 --> 01:33:14.720
a rational plan. Like immediately people would

01:33:14.720 --> 01:33:18.819
want to justify any horrific thing they could

01:33:18.819 --> 01:33:21.000
say about you. Yeah. Just to be clear, though,

01:33:21.020 --> 01:33:22.680
Jamie is not doing that, right? Jamie's a good

01:33:22.680 --> 01:33:28.800
guy. Fair enough. He likes sports. That's the

01:33:28.800 --> 01:33:33.359
kind of takeover he's into. But having taboo

01:33:33.359 --> 01:33:35.180
subjects or having things you cannot consider,

01:33:35.319 --> 01:33:37.680
even if you're clearly not a racist person, even

01:33:37.680 --> 01:33:39.100
if you're clearly not a person who advocates

01:33:39.100 --> 01:33:43.579
genocide, the idea that intellectual discussions

01:33:43.579 --> 01:33:49.180
cannot be pursued about specific topics. The

01:33:49.180 --> 01:33:51.479
first thing, if you're going to go into evolutionary

01:33:51.479 --> 01:33:53.300
biology, especially if you're going to get anywhere

01:33:53.300 --> 01:33:55.659
near human beings, you have to really put aside

01:33:55.659 --> 01:33:59.479
the idea of taboo in intellectual space. You

01:33:59.479 --> 01:34:02.039
have to be able to consider everything because

01:34:02.039 --> 01:34:05.960
so much of the story is, you know, it goes from

01:34:05.960 --> 01:34:09.399
bizarre to horrifying. You know, there's also

01:34:09.399 --> 01:34:12.659
great beauty. One of the important things to

01:34:12.659 --> 01:34:15.359
remember is that the evolutionary, the adaptive

01:34:15.359 --> 01:34:18.319
process, the adaptive evolutionary process gave

01:34:18.319 --> 01:34:21.920
us not only our worst characteristics, our tendency

01:34:21.920 --> 01:34:25.479
to war and to genocide and to oppression, but

01:34:25.479 --> 01:34:27.699
it gave us our best characteristics to our capacity

01:34:27.699 --> 01:34:31.220
to love, to empathize, to be compassionate, to

01:34:31.220 --> 01:34:35.279
sacrifice for others. So all of those things

01:34:35.279 --> 01:34:39.859
are. evolutionary products. And the message I

01:34:39.859 --> 01:34:41.899
try to convey to people when I talk about this

01:34:41.899 --> 01:34:45.899
is that we have to pick and choose which of the

01:34:45.899 --> 01:34:49.899
evolutionary products we want to honor and preserve

01:34:49.899 --> 01:34:53.960
and which of them we wish to bar from the landscape.

01:34:54.180 --> 01:34:56.279
And this is really what civilization is about.

01:34:57.039 --> 01:34:59.819
Civilization is about taking the whole spectrum

01:34:59.819 --> 01:35:03.199
of things that we're capable of and providing

01:35:03.199 --> 01:35:05.380
a landscape for the ones that are honorable and

01:35:05.380 --> 01:35:08.319
good, and making the ones that aren't honorable

01:35:08.319 --> 01:35:10.619
and good so expensive that nobody would consider

01:35:10.619 --> 01:35:14.800
engaging in them. Now, when you're in the middle

01:35:14.800 --> 01:35:18.100
of this crazy scenario that you find yourself

01:35:18.100 --> 01:35:23.899
in, and what you know about evolutionary biology

01:35:23.899 --> 01:35:26.979
and about the mechanisms behind human behavior

01:35:26.979 --> 01:35:33.689
and... How do you get back to work? Well, I'm

01:35:33.689 --> 01:35:37.189
lucky in that the freedom that Evergreen offers

01:35:37.189 --> 01:35:39.949
me to teach what I want, how I want. You can

01:35:39.949 --> 01:35:43.449
teach outside of the school? Well, I mean, you'd

01:35:43.449 --> 01:35:45.829
be surprised. My contract doesn't even mention

01:35:45.829 --> 01:35:48.909
biology. I can teach what I want. So you could

01:35:48.909 --> 01:35:52.430
teach, like, football scores? I could teach dance.

01:35:52.590 --> 01:35:55.550
Really? I mean, I'm not a good dancer, so I can't.

01:35:55.550 --> 01:35:58.420
But I could teach. Pottery, it doesn't matter.

01:35:58.800 --> 01:36:01.659
So what that means from my perspective is that

01:36:01.659 --> 01:36:03.819
I'm able to take the stuff I'm intellectually

01:36:03.819 --> 01:36:06.680
interested in and I'm able to make it my teaching

01:36:06.680 --> 01:36:08.800
life as well. And that has worked beautifully.

01:36:09.039 --> 01:36:12.260
I've really had a great time bringing students

01:36:12.260 --> 01:36:16.199
in on what I think is the cutting edge of evolutionary.

01:36:17.750 --> 01:36:21.630
theory, and many of them have rallied. So, you

01:36:21.630 --> 01:36:24.630
know, it's a lot like having graduate students

01:36:24.630 --> 01:36:27.109
who are deeply interested in the same material

01:36:27.109 --> 01:36:30.029
and are able to play ball because, you know,

01:36:30.069 --> 01:36:32.369
they take on the toolkit, they learn to use it.

01:36:32.409 --> 01:36:35.449
And so anyway, my intellectual life is quite

01:36:35.449 --> 01:36:39.770
rich, and it involves undergraduate students,

01:36:39.850 --> 01:36:43.369
which is a pretty unusual thing, but it does

01:36:43.369 --> 01:36:47.859
work pretty well. How do you get back to work

01:36:47.859 --> 01:36:49.939
at your school, though? Oh, is that what you're

01:36:49.939 --> 01:36:52.239
asking? Yeah. I mean, how does does that even

01:36:52.239 --> 01:36:56.699
happen? It's a tough question. So you are confronted

01:36:56.699 --> 01:36:58.699
with the very real possibility that your days

01:36:58.699 --> 01:37:01.300
at Evergreen might be over. Well, there's a practical

01:37:01.300 --> 01:37:03.979
question. I don't think they can fire me because

01:37:03.979 --> 01:37:07.420
I haven't done anything wrong. Right. So that

01:37:07.420 --> 01:37:11.420
means I can go back to work in the fall and I

01:37:11.420 --> 01:37:15.800
don't have another plan. On the other hand –

01:37:15.800 --> 01:37:19.420
You're saying in the fall. Your school – how

01:37:19.420 --> 01:37:21.920
much longer does the semester have? Well, my

01:37:21.920 --> 01:37:24.779
– You add in June or July? I unfortunately have

01:37:24.779 --> 01:37:26.380
a conference that I have to – I mean, it's not

01:37:26.380 --> 01:37:28.560
unfortunate that I have it, but I have a conference

01:37:28.560 --> 01:37:30.600
that unfortunately interfaces with the end of

01:37:30.600 --> 01:37:32.760
the quarter such that I had to wrap my program

01:37:32.760 --> 01:37:35.119
up early. And I met with my program for the last

01:37:35.119 --> 01:37:37.899
time yesterday after the campus had closed. We

01:37:37.899 --> 01:37:41.140
met in the park again. You mean in the park?

01:37:41.630 --> 01:37:44.250
Well, we weren't safe to be on campus, so we

01:37:44.250 --> 01:37:46.090
started doing that as an alternative. How many

01:37:46.090 --> 01:37:49.930
students? I'm supposed to have 25. I have 32.

01:37:50.989 --> 01:37:55.369
So who are the extra ones? People who begged

01:37:55.369 --> 01:37:57.289
to get into the program, and I couldn't turn

01:37:57.289 --> 01:38:01.529
them away. Oh, you're a sweetie. Thank you. So

01:38:01.529 --> 01:38:04.430
now you meet in the park. Are you worried that

01:38:04.430 --> 01:38:06.069
someone's going to find out where you're meeting

01:38:06.069 --> 01:38:11.159
and you won't be safe there? You know, I mean,

01:38:11.180 --> 01:38:13.439
I don't go anywhere without thinking about it.

01:38:13.479 --> 01:38:16.180
So, yes, I'm concerned about that. So it's really

01:38:16.180 --> 01:38:20.680
gotten that crazy in your mind that you have

01:38:20.680 --> 01:38:22.939
to worry if you're going to the supermarket or

01:38:22.939 --> 01:38:25.840
you have to worry if you're... I never know what

01:38:25.840 --> 01:38:31.199
I'm going to encounter. And, you know, I'm not

01:38:31.199 --> 01:38:34.479
a big worrier on that front. I more or less feel

01:38:34.479 --> 01:38:36.600
like if I encounter somebody, they're probably

01:38:36.600 --> 01:38:41.819
going to be upset. A large number of them, actually,

01:38:41.840 --> 01:38:44.159
I could probably talk to them and get somewhere.

01:38:44.640 --> 01:38:48.500
On the other hand, given what people think is

01:38:48.500 --> 01:38:51.680
true about me and what they think the rules are

01:38:51.680 --> 01:38:53.340
with respect to what they are therefore entitled

01:38:53.340 --> 01:38:56.340
to do, I don't know. I really don't know what

01:38:56.340 --> 01:39:02.840
could happen. Wow. Well, what can be done or

01:39:02.840 --> 01:39:06.680
what should be done about some of the... I don't

01:39:06.680 --> 01:39:09.039
want to use the term crazy, but some of the more

01:39:09.039 --> 01:39:12.039
rambunctious students that are a part of this.

01:39:12.100 --> 01:39:13.500
I mean, it doesn't seem like they're going to

01:39:13.500 --> 01:39:17.520
just change their behavior and go back to just

01:39:17.520 --> 01:39:21.119
being a normal, inquisitive young person trying

01:39:21.119 --> 01:39:23.060
to figure out the world. It's like they're so

01:39:23.060 --> 01:39:27.239
embroiled in this ideology. It seems and they've

01:39:27.239 --> 01:39:29.739
given them so much ground. It's like, how do

01:39:29.739 --> 01:39:33.420
you stop this? And when you've held the fucking

01:39:33.420 --> 01:39:36.739
president hostage and told him he can't go to

01:39:36.739 --> 01:39:38.960
the bathroom without representatives of your

01:39:38.960 --> 01:39:42.800
militant group watching him pee, where does it

01:39:42.800 --> 01:39:49.899
go from there? Well, I should say, what I said

01:39:49.899 --> 01:39:54.560
five, ten minutes ago probably sounded a little

01:39:54.560 --> 01:39:58.380
utopian. I'm not a utopian. I think utopia might

01:39:58.380 --> 01:40:01.079
be the worst idea humans ever had. So what I'm

01:40:01.079 --> 01:40:03.380
saying should be understood. The worst? Worse

01:40:03.380 --> 01:40:05.479
than the Holocaust? Well, I mean, the Holocaust

01:40:05.479 --> 01:40:09.420
was utopian. I guess. It was, right? That was

01:40:09.420 --> 01:40:14.560
the idea. So, yes, I think that. But most people

01:40:14.560 --> 01:40:17.420
think of utopian as like some moment in time

01:40:17.420 --> 01:40:19.300
where we're all sort of like, oh, what are we

01:40:19.300 --> 01:40:21.260
doing? Let's work together. Let's all be nice.

01:40:21.420 --> 01:40:23.239
Right. Well, people, I mean, you know, utopia.

01:40:23.479 --> 01:40:25.619
They have utopian ideas of utopia. Yes. Well,

01:40:25.779 --> 01:40:27.779
they have very impractical ideas. They think

01:40:27.779 --> 01:40:30.479
they, A, they think they know enough about the

01:40:30.479 --> 01:40:34.180
way things work to describe. a good state for

01:40:34.180 --> 01:40:36.600
things to reach. And they tend to focus on one

01:40:36.600 --> 01:40:38.640
thing that they want to make better and ignore

01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:40.699
all of the harms that will come if they engage

01:40:40.699 --> 01:40:46.739
in it. So anyway, I'm not a utopian. And what

01:40:46.739 --> 01:40:49.180
I'm about to say about what could happen at Evergreen

01:40:49.180 --> 01:40:53.239
is not utopian in nature. But I do think Evergreen,

01:40:53.340 --> 01:40:57.680
as you described earlier, is really the tip of

01:40:57.680 --> 01:41:00.970
something. What happened at Evergreen... is so

01:41:00.970 --> 01:41:04.229
extreme and the way it looks to the world is

01:41:04.229 --> 01:41:09.670
so preposterous that I do think, I do hope that

01:41:09.670 --> 01:41:13.090
the academy is hitting bottom. That in seeing

01:41:13.090 --> 01:41:15.329
this little preview of where these things go,

01:41:15.470 --> 01:41:18.229
if they are allowed to evolve their own accord,

01:41:18.489 --> 01:41:20.489
that people will wake up and they will realize,

01:41:20.550 --> 01:41:23.010
actually, as hard as it is to challenge this

01:41:23.010 --> 01:41:25.210
stuff, we have to do it because if we don't,

01:41:25.210 --> 01:41:29.819
this is what happens. Now, that said, on our

01:41:29.819 --> 01:41:37.060
campus, if we get rid of a few bad actors, starting

01:41:37.060 --> 01:41:42.680
with the president, and we recognize that we

01:41:42.680 --> 01:41:46.239
have ended up in some new landscape where up

01:41:46.239 --> 01:41:50.640
is down, it is also possible that we could find...

01:41:52.210 --> 01:41:55.750
We could find a new kind of common ground. Do

01:41:55.750 --> 01:41:57.510
you think you could find a new common ground

01:41:57.510 --> 01:41:59.170
with these students that are screaming in the

01:41:59.170 --> 01:42:01.869
streets, hey, hey, ho, ho, these racist teachers

01:42:01.869 --> 01:42:05.109
have got to go? I know this is going to sound

01:42:05.109 --> 01:42:08.350
crazy, and some people are not going to understand

01:42:08.350 --> 01:42:12.949
why when my family and students have been threatened,

01:42:13.010 --> 01:42:15.090
I would even talk like this. And to be honest,

01:42:15.170 --> 01:42:18.949
I understand why they would say that. But the

01:42:18.949 --> 01:42:22.739
difference is... can you talk to them in a small

01:42:22.739 --> 01:42:26.000
group of people where they could be reached because

01:42:26.000 --> 01:42:28.520
indeed many of them are reachable or do you have

01:42:28.520 --> 01:42:30.619
to talk to the entire mob in which case yes it's

01:42:30.619 --> 01:42:33.020
absolutely impossible isn't it also a problem

01:42:33.020 --> 01:42:34.800
in that when people dig their heels into the

01:42:34.800 --> 01:42:36.720
sand and they decide that this is how things

01:42:36.720 --> 01:42:39.960
are and then even when confronted with the possibility

01:42:39.960 --> 01:42:44.159
they may have been incorrect or wrong or acted

01:42:44.159 --> 01:42:46.819
irrationally it's very difficult for people to

01:42:46.819 --> 01:42:50.479
admit that and reconcile and step back and maybe

01:42:50.479 --> 01:42:56.840
just self -assess. Somebody has to blaze the

01:42:56.840 --> 01:42:59.840
trail. In other words, I find myself accidentally

01:42:59.840 --> 01:43:02.079
in the position of blazing a particular trail

01:43:02.079 --> 01:43:06.180
of how do you stare down an accusation of racism.

01:43:06.180 --> 01:43:08.859
So someone from that side has to blaze a trail.

01:43:09.000 --> 01:43:11.699
Somebody from that side. To realize, hey, Brett

01:43:11.699 --> 01:43:14.100
is the opposite of racist. We're being silly

01:43:14.100 --> 01:43:16.699
here. We all have a common enemy, and a common

01:43:16.699 --> 01:43:21.000
enemy is real racism. Ah, good. And, I mean,

01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:23.880
this is why I said, recognizing that you have

01:43:23.880 --> 01:43:26.939
been involved in a witch hunt. That's the moment

01:43:26.939 --> 01:43:30.920
at which you either level up or you don't. When

01:43:30.920 --> 01:43:32.739
you realize you've been engaged in a witch hunt,

01:43:32.800 --> 01:43:35.300
that's the moment at which you can discover there's

01:43:35.300 --> 01:43:38.020
something fundamental that's wrong in my program

01:43:38.020 --> 01:43:40.399
somewhere that allowed that to happen. Maybe

01:43:40.399 --> 01:43:42.840
that would be a subject that someone could teach

01:43:42.840 --> 01:43:47.520
as a course, like how campus ideology goes amok.

01:43:47.699 --> 01:43:53.449
Absolutely. How things go amok. It's not exactly

01:43:53.449 --> 01:43:55.350
that, and it was planned long before this protest

01:43:55.350 --> 01:43:57.890
erupted, but I'm scheduled next spring to teach

01:43:57.890 --> 01:44:02.109
with another professor a program on essentially

01:44:02.109 --> 01:44:06.590
the evolutionary origins of human violence. Wow.

01:44:06.710 --> 01:44:11.689
So when you think about everything coming, do

01:44:11.689 --> 01:44:14.250
you have like a vision in your mind about how

01:44:14.250 --> 01:44:16.149
everything would sort of the dust will settle

01:44:16.149 --> 01:44:19.590
and this president hopefully will either resign

01:44:19.590 --> 01:44:22.770
or be forced out and then? What do you do with

01:44:22.770 --> 01:44:24.970
these students that you looked at and they were

01:44:24.970 --> 01:44:27.329
screaming at you, calling you a racist, telling

01:44:27.329 --> 01:44:29.670
you to resign? Like, how do you deal with that

01:44:29.670 --> 01:44:34.010
when you go back to school? Well, I mean, if

01:44:34.010 --> 01:44:36.810
they were willing to listen, I could deal with

01:44:36.810 --> 01:44:39.869
it. The thing that is, I think, hard to appreciate

01:44:39.869 --> 01:44:42.329
from the outside a little bit is that because

01:44:42.329 --> 01:44:47.050
I know that there's nothing to the accusation

01:44:47.050 --> 01:44:50.880
and because so many students. know that there's

01:44:50.880 --> 01:44:54.000
nothing to the accusation, it doesn't hurt in

01:44:54.000 --> 01:44:57.380
the same way that it would if I had serious doubts

01:44:57.380 --> 01:45:00.300
about myself in this regard. So if they were

01:45:00.300 --> 01:45:05.380
to come around, you know, we could make it happen.

01:45:05.739 --> 01:45:08.439
That said, that's not the direction things are

01:45:08.439 --> 01:45:12.960
going. As of this morning, the internal list

01:45:12.960 --> 01:45:17.800
of the faculty and staff was headed in exactly

01:45:17.800 --> 01:45:20.359
the wrong direction what is the list like what

01:45:20.359 --> 01:45:22.500
are they what are they trying to do well they

01:45:22.500 --> 01:45:26.479
imagine that this entire catastrophe including

01:45:26.479 --> 01:45:29.819
the closing of the campus yesterday and today

01:45:29.819 --> 01:45:33.600
is the result of the i think it was six minutes

01:45:33.600 --> 01:45:37.699
i spent on tucker carlson yeah you got on fox

01:45:37.699 --> 01:45:40.760
news you summoned the demon i mean those airwaves

01:45:40.760 --> 01:45:44.109
are immoral Yeah. Yeah. So have they literally

01:45:44.109 --> 01:45:46.489
said that, that you should not have gone on Fox

01:45:46.489 --> 01:45:51.630
News? Oh, that's beyond that. Their point is.

01:45:51.630 --> 01:45:55.590
Here we go. Evergreen State faculty demand punishment

01:45:55.590 --> 01:45:58.890
of white professor who refused to leave on anti

01:45:58.890 --> 01:46:01.649
-white day. Oh, it's anti -white day. That's

01:46:01.649 --> 01:46:04.489
even more interesting. Wow. It came out today.

01:46:04.569 --> 01:46:06.010
It might have came out since we started the podcast,

01:46:06.069 --> 01:46:09.239
too. I'm not sure when this hit. What is it?

01:46:09.300 --> 01:46:13.119
The collegefix .com? This is describing what's

01:46:13.119 --> 01:46:14.720
in the letter. The contents of the letter are

01:46:14.720 --> 01:46:17.300
right here. I've been tweeted it a few times.

01:46:17.380 --> 01:46:21.739
Make that a little larger for me. We acknowledge

01:46:21.739 --> 01:46:24.439
that all of us have power within the institution.

01:46:25.390 --> 01:46:28.210
who have power within the institution share responsibility

01:46:28.210 --> 01:46:31.109
for the racist actions of others. Furthermore,

01:46:31.449 --> 01:46:34.069
those of us who are white bear a particularly

01:46:34.069 --> 01:46:36.829
large share of that responsibility. Oh, God.

01:46:37.029 --> 01:46:39.369
We acknowledge that we have a great deal of work

01:46:39.369 --> 01:46:41.529
to do in order to honor and live up to the demands

01:46:41.529 --> 01:46:43.989
made by the student leaders. Oh, the students

01:46:43.989 --> 01:46:46.250
are leaders. Oh, yeah. They're leaders. Like

01:46:46.250 --> 01:46:50.029
how in Yale, the students that stared down the

01:46:50.029 --> 01:46:53.010
professor and physically threatened him, they

01:46:53.010 --> 01:46:56.649
were actually... They were given awards. Wasn't

01:46:56.649 --> 01:47:00.369
one of them given some sort of an acknowledgment

01:47:00.369 --> 01:47:03.829
of being a leader? We'll find that. Jamie will

01:47:03.829 --> 01:47:05.909
find that. But we acknowledge we have a great

01:47:05.909 --> 01:47:07.890
deal of work to do in order to honor and live

01:47:07.890 --> 01:47:09.770
up to the demands made by the student leaders

01:47:09.770 --> 01:47:25.760
during last week's protests. color focus groups

01:47:25.760 --> 01:47:29.380
of 2014 through their participation in anchoring

01:47:29.380 --> 01:47:32.939
the strategic equity plan for November in Cooper

01:47:32.939 --> 01:47:35.060
Point Journal, blah, blah, blah. And we have

01:47:35.060 --> 01:47:38.140
not yet truly listened and acted. We acknowledge

01:47:38.140 --> 01:47:40.960
a student's right to protest and affirm President

01:47:40.960 --> 01:47:44.359
Bridge's recent decision not to use the misguided

01:47:44.359 --> 01:47:47.340
language of the current student context. What

01:47:47.340 --> 01:47:50.020
is that? Current student conduct code to punish

01:47:50.020 --> 01:47:53.260
the protesters? What is the language of the current

01:47:53.260 --> 01:47:57.239
student conduct code? A, hell if I know, but

01:47:57.239 --> 01:47:59.880
B, I believe what they're talking about is the

01:47:59.880 --> 01:48:03.579
president said that students would not be held

01:48:03.579 --> 01:48:06.119
accountable for disrupting my class. And then

01:48:06.119 --> 01:48:10.479
I believe he agreed to their demand for student

01:48:10.479 --> 01:48:13.680
authority over any changes to the conduct code.

01:48:13.760 --> 01:48:16.260
So these students who are engaged in this. I

01:48:16.260 --> 01:48:18.159
hope this is right. I don't want to say something

01:48:18.159 --> 01:48:19.800
that's untrue. But my understanding was that

01:48:19.800 --> 01:48:22.220
he agreed to that demand. We vehemently reject

01:48:22.220 --> 01:48:24.619
the claim that students have been violent simply

01:48:24.619 --> 01:48:27.520
because they have been loud and emphatic. There

01:48:27.520 --> 01:48:29.279
is a difference between exercising the right

01:48:29.279 --> 01:48:32.560
to freely voice an opinion and inciting violence.

01:48:32.819 --> 01:48:34.880
And that difference has nothing to do with the

01:48:34.880 --> 01:48:36.819
volume or forcefulness. That's not true. Because

01:48:36.819 --> 01:48:39.680
they were upset that he was moving his hands.

01:48:40.020 --> 01:48:42.800
They were calling that aggression. And now they're

01:48:42.800 --> 01:48:46.069
saying that, on the other hand... Children can

01:48:46.069 --> 01:48:48.210
scream. I'm calling them children from now on.

01:48:48.270 --> 01:48:50.949
We support the demands made by students and honor

01:48:50.949 --> 01:48:54.310
the positive institutional change they have already

01:48:54.310 --> 01:48:56.090
achieved through their protests. That's hilarious.

01:48:56.390 --> 01:48:59.449
Our most urgent demands below center on the safety

01:48:59.449 --> 01:49:01.750
of those individuals who are currently most at

01:49:01.750 --> 01:49:05.170
risk. I mean, like the professor? At the same

01:49:05.170 --> 01:49:07.670
time, we acknowledge that in weeks and months

01:49:07.670 --> 01:49:10.050
to come, our attention will need to turn to the

01:49:10.050 --> 01:49:12.529
larger structural issues students have identified.

01:49:12.729 --> 01:49:14.930
In solidarity with students, we commit ourselves

01:49:14.930 --> 01:49:18.729
to Participating actively and self -critically

01:49:18.729 --> 01:49:22.270
in the annual mandatory trainings specified in

01:49:22.270 --> 01:49:24.970
the memorandum of understanding recently signed.

01:49:25.739 --> 01:49:28.300
By the UF, what does UFE stand for? That's our

01:49:28.300 --> 01:49:30.979
union, United Faculty of Evergreen. And management

01:49:30.979 --> 01:49:33.899
bargaining teams holding each other accountable

01:49:33.899 --> 01:49:37.479
when we act in racist ways against our colleagues

01:49:37.479 --> 01:49:40.000
or our students. Okay, well then why don't you

01:49:40.000 --> 01:49:42.680
hold yourself accountable that you acquiesced

01:49:42.680 --> 01:49:45.119
to a fucking anti -white day? That's racist.

01:49:45.399 --> 01:49:48.479
Right, but what's going to happen here is this

01:49:48.479 --> 01:49:52.100
is going to be intolerable. re -education by

01:49:52.100 --> 01:49:55.199
people who, frankly, it pains me to say it, but

01:49:55.199 --> 01:49:57.279
they're the most racist people on the campus.

01:49:58.079 --> 01:50:00.100
I mean, that's what this is. This is racism.

01:50:00.220 --> 01:50:02.380
It just happens to be in an unfamiliar direction,

01:50:02.640 --> 01:50:04.979
but it's racism. And they also are going to be

01:50:04.979 --> 01:50:08.399
in charge of sensitivity training here, which

01:50:08.399 --> 01:50:11.960
to me is the height of insanity. So scroll up

01:50:11.960 --> 01:50:13.899
a little bit. In solidarity with students, we

01:50:13.899 --> 01:50:17.060
call for the evergreen, this way, administration

01:50:17.060 --> 01:50:22.520
to center. Student perspectives and a persistent

01:50:22.520 --> 01:50:27.539
media approach. Gobbledygook. Approach to counter

01:50:27.539 --> 01:50:30.600
the alt -right narratives that are demonizing

01:50:30.600 --> 01:50:32.380
Evergreen. Okay, do you have an alt -right movement

01:50:32.380 --> 01:50:35.960
at Evergreen? If I read that correctly, I am

01:50:35.960 --> 01:50:38.300
now in the alt -right. Oh, you're an alt -righter.

01:50:38.420 --> 01:50:41.739
I guess so. Are demonizing Evergreen and Day

01:50:41.739 --> 01:50:46.140
of Absence specifically. Wow. Persistent media

01:50:46.140 --> 01:50:49.619
approach. Is that you going on Tucker Carlson?

01:50:49.659 --> 01:50:52.340
That must be it. So we have to break this down

01:50:52.340 --> 01:50:54.140
like it's code. We're not even speaking English.

01:50:54.180 --> 01:50:56.539
We're reading fucking hieroglyphs here. Persistent

01:50:56.539 --> 01:50:59.760
media approach. Persistent media approach. Am

01:50:59.760 --> 01:51:02.079
I alt -right? I might be. You are now. I might

01:51:02.079 --> 01:51:05.399
be. People think I am because I've had alt -right

01:51:05.399 --> 01:51:09.720
people on. But then conveniently, when I have

01:51:09.720 --> 01:51:12.939
liberals on, I'm a fucking raging liberal. God

01:51:12.939 --> 01:51:15.399
damn it. Take seriously the threats made to the

01:51:15.399 --> 01:51:17.340
individual community members. Oh, aren't you

01:51:17.340 --> 01:51:18.840
an individual community member? I think you're

01:51:18.840 --> 01:51:22.239
about to get to me here. Use available institutional

01:51:22.239 --> 01:51:25.279
resources to protect them. Demonstrate accountability

01:51:25.279 --> 01:51:29.279
by pursuing a disciplinary investigation against

01:51:29.279 --> 01:51:33.800
Brett Weinstein. According to guidelines in the

01:51:33.800 --> 01:51:39.340
social contract and faculty handbook, Weinstein

01:51:39.340 --> 01:51:44.390
has endangered. faculty, staffs, and students,

01:51:44.649 --> 01:51:48.069
making them targets of white supremacist backlash

01:51:48.069 --> 01:51:51.989
by promulgating misinformation in public emails,

01:51:52.170 --> 01:51:54.970
on national television, in news outlets, and

01:51:54.970 --> 01:51:58.390
on social media. That is a very, very broad...

01:51:58.390 --> 01:52:00.470
You should sue. That's a hell of a bullet point,

01:52:00.550 --> 01:52:03.779
huh? You should sue just for that. Yep. You have

01:52:03.779 --> 01:52:06.760
endangered faculty, staff and students. You see,

01:52:06.819 --> 01:52:09.579
the problem with that statement is someone can

01:52:09.579 --> 01:52:13.800
just read that now and use that as a quote and

01:52:13.800 --> 01:52:16.319
just start saying that as if it's fact. Well,

01:52:16.359 --> 01:52:18.500
let's just let's just deal with this for a second.

01:52:18.539 --> 01:52:22.319
Can we please? OK, so that is a very interesting

01:52:22.319 --> 01:52:27.359
bullet point. The fact is, I have gone on media.

01:52:27.479 --> 01:52:31.239
Media has come to me. What I have done is I have

01:52:31.239 --> 01:52:35.180
pointed to. that the protesters themselves put

01:52:35.180 --> 01:52:39.100
up that caused the world to say, what the hell

01:52:39.100 --> 01:52:41.579
is going on at Evergreen? And this has resulted,

01:52:41.680 --> 01:52:44.159
the entire thing has unfolded. I've been fighting

01:52:44.159 --> 01:52:46.420
this for a year, trying to point out to my colleagues

01:52:46.420 --> 01:52:48.659
that they were making terrible errors. This is

01:52:48.659 --> 01:52:53.000
all the result of reforms put in motion by President

01:52:53.000 --> 01:52:56.710
Bridges. So they are now blaming me. And I should

01:52:56.710 --> 01:52:58.810
say, I do think there is jeopardy on the campus.

01:52:58.890 --> 01:53:00.829
We had a threat yesterday from somebody. I have

01:53:00.829 --> 01:53:03.350
no idea how serious it was. But I do believe

01:53:03.350 --> 01:53:05.449
that there's jeopardy to people on our campus.

01:53:05.630 --> 01:53:07.829
What specifically was the threat? Was it a threat

01:53:07.829 --> 01:53:10.710
from a white supremacist group? Was it a threat

01:53:10.710 --> 01:53:15.470
from a pro -protester group? It wasn't specific.

01:53:15.930 --> 01:53:19.550
So all I can say is that I got what I was told

01:53:19.550 --> 01:53:22.069
was a transcript of the call. I cannot vouch

01:53:22.069 --> 01:53:25.119
for it because I don't have... access to, you

01:53:25.119 --> 01:53:27.279
know, somebody could be promulgating a hoax.

01:53:27.319 --> 01:53:29.600
I don't know. But what it said was that they

01:53:29.600 --> 01:53:32.319
were coming to campus, I think, with a magnum,

01:53:32.359 --> 01:53:35.979
and they were going to kill as many as they could,

01:53:36.000 --> 01:53:40.680
is what they said. They do? We could play the

01:53:40.680 --> 01:53:43.960
audio? Okay. Put your headphones on. Let's listen.

01:53:46.180 --> 01:53:53.109
Let's hear it. Hello? Hello, dispatch, can I

01:53:53.109 --> 01:53:57.550
help you? Yes, I'm on my way to Evergreen University

01:53:57.550 --> 01:54:01.670
now with a .44 Magnum. I'm going to execute as

01:54:01.670 --> 01:54:04.109
many people on that campus as I can get a hold

01:54:04.109 --> 01:54:06.390
of. You have that? What's going on there, you

01:54:06.390 --> 01:54:09.229
communist scumbag hound? I'm going to murder

01:54:09.229 --> 01:54:11.949
as many people on that campus as I can. Sure.

01:54:12.210 --> 01:54:17.060
Just keep your eyes open, scumbag. Okay. First

01:54:17.060 --> 01:54:19.300
of all, A, that guy's full of shit. B, he's an

01:54:19.300 --> 01:54:21.800
amateur. Right. Because 44 Magnum only holds

01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:24.640
six rounds. Mostly, maybe five. Might even be

01:54:24.640 --> 01:54:26.800
five rounds. Or is that a Desert Eagle? That

01:54:26.800 --> 01:54:29.399
guy's a bullshit artist. 44 Magnum. You don't

01:54:29.399 --> 01:54:32.060
specify the round that you're going to use. Nor

01:54:32.060 --> 01:54:34.779
does that weapon make any sense. But nonetheless,

01:54:35.020 --> 01:54:37.939
the point is... He's Dirty Harry. He thinks so.

01:54:38.060 --> 01:54:42.359
Yeah, right. But, you know, I don't want to belittle

01:54:42.359 --> 01:54:45.199
people's jeopardy. I have to say that he might

01:54:45.199 --> 01:54:47.560
have been crazy and he might have actually been

01:54:47.560 --> 01:54:49.159
really wanting to do that. And he could have

01:54:49.159 --> 01:54:53.399
done right. And it could happen. And I, I think

01:54:53.399 --> 01:54:56.039
the jeopardy to people on campus is real. And

01:54:56.039 --> 01:54:58.699
I live right adjacent to campus. And I must tell

01:54:58.699 --> 01:55:02.220
you, I brought my family with me because I don't

01:55:02.220 --> 01:55:04.199
feel that they are safe there at the moment.

01:55:04.239 --> 01:55:07.520
The question is, how is it? that we have reached

01:55:07.520 --> 01:55:10.260
the point of deciding that this jeopardy is from

01:55:10.260 --> 01:55:14.960
me. Well, that's horrific. What they've done

01:55:14.960 --> 01:55:17.899
is so irresponsible in releasing that and making

01:55:17.899 --> 01:55:23.279
it public. It's so irresponsible and so silly

01:55:23.279 --> 01:55:26.159
that they don't realize that other people are

01:55:26.159 --> 01:55:29.399
going to see through that so clearly. Misinformation?

01:55:29.720 --> 01:55:32.720
Like what? Misinformation? What specifically?

01:55:33.140 --> 01:55:35.640
They should be very specific. When they accuse

01:55:35.640 --> 01:55:38.500
you of misinformation, they should be very specific.

01:55:38.720 --> 01:55:41.359
If they're going so far as to say that you are

01:55:41.359 --> 01:55:44.180
somehow or another summoning the alt -right and

01:55:44.180 --> 01:55:49.500
making misinformation public on mass media, what

01:55:49.500 --> 01:55:51.840
is that misinformation? Well, I know because

01:55:51.840 --> 01:55:54.899
I've been watching the email traffic. Right.

01:55:54.979 --> 01:56:00.220
So their claim. is that white people were not

01:56:00.220 --> 01:56:03.100
asked to leave campus, that there were only 200

01:56:03.100 --> 01:56:06.199
spaces in the venue off campus, and therefore

01:56:06.199 --> 01:56:09.359
this was just supposed to be for a small subset

01:56:09.359 --> 01:56:13.020
of people, which is nonsense. There were only

01:56:13.020 --> 01:56:15.060
200 spaces if you wanted to go to the particular

01:56:15.060 --> 01:56:17.000
seminars that they were holding, for example,

01:56:17.000 --> 01:56:19.319
the one about why Asians were part of the problem.

01:56:19.619 --> 01:56:22.479
So they had a seminar on Asians being a problem.

01:56:22.619 --> 01:56:24.779
Or a presentation of some kind. That is really

01:56:24.779 --> 01:56:29.239
racist. I believe so. But in any case, they are

01:56:29.239 --> 01:56:33.539
conflating the 200 spaces off campus with what

01:56:33.539 --> 01:56:37.119
was actually expected of us. And it was quite

01:56:37.119 --> 01:56:41.510
clear. In fact, one of my staff colleagues. put

01:56:41.510 --> 01:56:44.970
out an email. Boy, time has gone into some weird

01:56:44.970 --> 01:56:47.130
thing, but I think it was last night in which

01:56:47.130 --> 01:56:49.710
he detailed the several emails that we had seen

01:56:49.710 --> 01:56:52.170
in which the school did ask white people to leave

01:56:52.170 --> 01:56:56.029
for that day. So they are promoting falsehoods

01:56:56.029 --> 01:56:58.710
themselves designed to obscure what's going on,

01:56:58.770 --> 01:57:00.510
I think because they finally understood that

01:57:00.510 --> 01:57:02.659
the world doesn't get... What they were doing.

01:57:02.819 --> 01:57:04.979
Well, do they not understand that this is a trail

01:57:04.979 --> 01:57:07.380
that's going to be released, like that this is

01:57:07.380 --> 01:57:09.899
actual data and that this data when they accuse

01:57:09.899 --> 01:57:12.319
you of misinformation and then you have all this

01:57:12.319 --> 01:57:14.399
data and then you could just like release it

01:57:14.399 --> 01:57:16.819
to everybody like, hey, this is the actual emails.

01:57:17.340 --> 01:57:18.880
Clearly, this contradicts what you're saying.

01:57:19.020 --> 01:57:23.539
It makes you a liar. Right. Several people, in

01:57:23.539 --> 01:57:27.399
fact, many people have now started to refer to.

01:57:28.060 --> 01:57:31.619
what's going on in the staff faculty zone here

01:57:31.619 --> 01:57:36.699
as a cult. And I think, you know, on the one

01:57:36.699 --> 01:57:39.279
hand, that could be tongue in cheek. On the other

01:57:39.279 --> 01:57:44.539
hand, the mechanisms at work that have people

01:57:44.539 --> 01:57:47.439
doubling down on absurdities rather than trying

01:57:47.439 --> 01:57:49.199
to get on the right side of history as quickly

01:57:49.199 --> 01:57:55.119
as possible, it is very cult -like. Again, you

01:57:55.119 --> 01:57:57.699
asked me what would have to happen for us to

01:57:57.699 --> 01:58:00.960
right the ship. The second one is that my faculty

01:58:00.960 --> 01:58:03.659
colleagues have to wake up to the fact that their

01:58:03.659 --> 01:58:07.930
belief structure is... has become bizarre and

01:58:07.930 --> 01:58:11.430
unrecognizable from any normal position. And

01:58:11.430 --> 01:58:13.609
very dangerous from the perspective of an educator.

01:58:13.869 --> 01:58:16.569
If this is what an educated person who has gone

01:58:16.569 --> 01:58:19.890
through the entire system and now has a job in

01:58:19.890 --> 01:58:22.670
educating young people, if this is how you view

01:58:22.670 --> 01:58:25.470
the world, and this is how you view facts, and

01:58:25.470 --> 01:58:28.609
this is how you distort them and then disseminate

01:58:28.609 --> 01:58:31.210
them. to the rest of these like -minded folks

01:58:31.210 --> 01:58:33.369
in this very bizarre echo chamber that's being

01:58:33.369 --> 01:58:38.390
rejected almost universally outside of the college.

01:58:38.869 --> 01:58:41.390
I mean, it's not just Fox News it's rejecting.

01:58:41.430 --> 01:58:43.609
It's the Washington Post. It's the New York Times.

01:58:43.770 --> 01:58:46.810
People are freaking out about your situation

01:58:46.810 --> 01:58:50.130
and recognize very clearly and very rightly that

01:58:50.130 --> 01:58:52.770
you are absolutely not a racist. And this is

01:58:52.770 --> 01:58:57.510
kind of a lot of what I've said to Jordan Peterson

01:58:57.510 --> 01:59:00.119
when I had him on. They fucked with the wrong

01:59:00.119 --> 01:59:02.939
person. Again, they fucked with the wrong person.

01:59:03.020 --> 01:59:05.260
And this is one of the most horrific things about

01:59:05.260 --> 01:59:09.800
what I find so troubling about what I think of

01:59:09.800 --> 01:59:13.260
as – I used to think of myself as a progressive.

01:59:13.380 --> 01:59:15.819
But what I have a problem with all of this is

01:59:15.819 --> 01:59:19.720
that the left is attacking itself now. It's like

01:59:19.720 --> 01:59:23.680
there's no one who's progressive enough. No one.

01:59:24.090 --> 01:59:27.130
Like every single thing you do is a microaggression.

01:59:27.170 --> 01:59:29.810
Every single thing you do is based on white privilege

01:59:29.810 --> 01:59:33.390
and therefore you're racist. And unless you somehow

01:59:33.390 --> 01:59:35.289
or another give up all your money and give up

01:59:35.289 --> 01:59:36.829
all your jobs – and there are people who are

01:59:36.829 --> 01:59:38.850
asking to do that too, by the way. There's people

01:59:38.850 --> 01:59:40.890
asking people to give their money and put them

01:59:40.890 --> 01:59:43.250
in black banks, give them to black people. I

01:59:43.250 --> 01:59:47.760
mean we're going crazy. This is literally – It's

01:59:47.760 --> 01:59:50.260
not an individual psychosis, but it's a collective

01:59:50.260 --> 01:59:52.859
psychosis that we're watching. And I believe

01:59:52.859 --> 01:59:55.680
that in literal terms. We are watching a kind

01:59:55.680 --> 01:59:58.899
of group insanity. Is this a problem with language?

01:59:59.359 --> 02:00:03.520
In some ways, is this a problem with influence

02:00:03.520 --> 02:00:07.960
and charisma and people's ability to sort of

02:00:07.960 --> 02:00:12.659
change the way others view the world with dramatic

02:00:12.659 --> 02:00:16.199
interpretations of events? And things like emails,

02:00:16.420 --> 02:00:18.500
where this is not a one -on -one debate. There's

02:00:18.500 --> 02:00:20.680
a real problem with blogs and emails. And I've

02:00:20.680 --> 02:00:23.220
talked about this several times, but it's worth

02:00:23.220 --> 02:00:25.760
repeating. There's a real problem when someone

02:00:25.760 --> 02:00:27.899
writes something like that specifically about

02:00:27.899 --> 02:00:30.680
another person like you and just writes it, but

02:00:30.680 --> 02:00:32.899
you're not there to respond. So they can write

02:00:32.899 --> 02:00:36.479
as much stuff that's not true. And they can put

02:00:36.479 --> 02:00:38.779
it all down and then it's there. And then someone

02:00:38.779 --> 02:00:41.000
has to refute it, but it's still there. So you

02:00:41.000 --> 02:00:42.939
don't even get to refute the actual document.

02:00:43.119 --> 02:00:45.680
You write your own and then someone has to go

02:00:45.680 --> 02:00:48.359
and read that at a different location. It's a

02:00:48.359 --> 02:00:50.880
real weird way to distribute information. And

02:00:50.880 --> 02:00:54.279
it's contrary to the way human beings rationally

02:00:54.279 --> 02:00:59.319
discuss and debate ideas. Well, I would say there

02:00:59.319 --> 02:01:03.430
are many. rules that are written into the way

02:01:03.430 --> 02:01:05.909
we interact now that make it possible for this

02:01:05.909 --> 02:01:10.369
to happen. So there was an instance where a faculty

02:01:10.369 --> 02:01:13.949
member accused those that were challenging any

02:01:13.949 --> 02:01:16.970
of these equity proposals as being part of a

02:01:16.970 --> 02:01:19.909
racist backlash. And she was clearly talking

02:01:19.909 --> 02:01:24.029
about me because I'm the most prominent person

02:01:24.029 --> 02:01:25.930
objecting. Is this faculty member a white person?

02:01:26.010 --> 02:01:29.569
No. So anyway, she says in a faculty meeting

02:01:29.569 --> 02:01:33.130
that this is a racist backlash. And I said to

02:01:33.130 --> 02:01:35.729
her in front of this faculty meeting, I said,

02:01:35.789 --> 02:01:38.109
somebody might want to check on the question

02:01:38.109 --> 02:01:40.109
of whether or not I'm actually a racist, because

02:01:40.109 --> 02:01:43.670
if you do check on it, you will discover I'm

02:01:43.670 --> 02:01:45.369
not. And if you don't, this is going to blow

02:01:45.369 --> 02:01:50.670
up on you. And the chair of the faculty told

02:01:50.670 --> 02:01:52.529
me that the faculty meeting was not the place

02:01:52.529 --> 02:01:55.109
to defend myself against accusations of racism.

02:01:55.289 --> 02:01:58.880
I said to her, That's fine. It's also not the

02:01:58.880 --> 02:02:02.859
place to level the accusations. But I said, where

02:02:02.859 --> 02:02:05.119
is the place? And then the faculty member who

02:02:05.119 --> 02:02:07.600
had made the accusation said, you should not

02:02:07.600 --> 02:02:09.920
expect there to be a venue in which to defend

02:02:09.920 --> 02:02:12.359
yourself. You should just get used to these accusations.

02:02:12.779 --> 02:02:16.359
In a separate case, I was told. Who said that?

02:02:16.479 --> 02:02:18.279
A white guy? No, it's the same faculty member

02:02:18.279 --> 02:02:21.529
who made the accusation. Wait a minute. The person

02:02:21.529 --> 02:02:25.710
said that you should just accept these untrue

02:02:25.710 --> 02:02:29.970
accusations. Yes. And what was your reaction

02:02:29.970 --> 02:02:31.550
to that? That this is not a place for you to

02:02:31.550 --> 02:02:34.250
defend yourself against racist accusations. This

02:02:34.250 --> 02:02:36.390
is a place for you to just eat shit. Right. You

02:02:36.390 --> 02:02:38.170
just have to accept these accusations. On a separate

02:02:38.170 --> 02:02:43.270
occasion, we were also told that to question

02:02:43.270 --> 02:02:48.380
an allegation of racism is racist. Oh. So convenient.

02:02:48.399 --> 02:02:50.319
Yeah. Try to wrap your mind around that one.

02:02:50.359 --> 02:02:54.520
To question an accusation of racism is racist.

02:02:54.539 --> 02:02:56.260
Right. We have an obligation to believe them.

02:02:56.340 --> 02:03:01.640
Wow. I know. I know. Wait a minute. How? That

02:03:01.640 --> 02:03:05.239
is crazy. That is like that is such stupid back

02:03:05.239 --> 02:03:09.300
ass words thinking it. You know, it's it's what

02:03:09.300 --> 02:03:13.279
the. Cult mentality sounds like inside. It doesn't

02:03:13.279 --> 02:03:15.159
understand that when you say that to an outsider,

02:03:15.420 --> 02:03:18.680
you know, it simply doesn't add up. Or it's creating

02:03:18.680 --> 02:03:21.739
a structure that makes it impossible to defend

02:03:21.739 --> 02:03:24.500
yourself because these accusations are so preposterous

02:03:24.500 --> 02:03:25.859
that they realize that they have to have some

02:03:25.859 --> 02:03:28.840
sort of a bizarro world structure. Absolutely.

02:03:29.500 --> 02:03:33.920
Oh, my God. So what does this person teach? They

02:03:33.920 --> 02:03:39.840
teach media. How ironic. Right. They teach media.

02:03:40.319 --> 02:03:44.939
They are currently running a program where she's

02:03:44.939 --> 02:03:47.220
teaching students to make documentaries. And

02:03:47.220 --> 02:03:50.079
that program, one of the students in the program

02:03:50.079 --> 02:03:53.319
filed a public records request. Since we are

02:03:53.319 --> 02:03:57.180
a public college, you can request the emails

02:03:57.180 --> 02:04:03.159
of faculty and staff if you want them. And so

02:04:03.159 --> 02:04:06.260
she had a student file a public records request

02:04:06.260 --> 02:04:09.460
for my email to make a documentary in her program.

02:04:11.439 --> 02:04:14.180
So you've got one faculty member searching another

02:04:14.180 --> 02:04:17.840
faculty member's email through a student looking

02:04:17.840 --> 02:04:21.500
for evidence of I don't know what. Evidence of

02:04:21.500 --> 02:04:25.619
racism. Well, presumably. Yeah, God. Yes. What

02:04:25.619 --> 02:04:28.020
little half of a sentence is she's going to cut

02:04:28.020 --> 02:04:30.220
out a contest with a few dot, dot, dots afterwards?

02:04:30.560 --> 02:04:32.739
I mean, in fact, if you can separate my letters

02:04:32.739 --> 02:04:34.600
from each other and reorganize them, I could

02:04:34.600 --> 02:04:35.960
have said all kinds of things. Well, I think

02:04:35.960 --> 02:04:39.659
you should have a student ask for... the emails

02:04:39.659 --> 02:04:41.640
that came from her, I bet they'd be wonderful.

02:04:41.859 --> 02:04:44.000
They could be very interesting. I bet they'd

02:04:44.000 --> 02:04:46.500
be wonderful. If she's telling you that you shouldn't

02:04:46.500 --> 02:04:48.300
have a venue to defend yourself and you should

02:04:48.300 --> 02:04:51.220
just accept the fact that you're going to be

02:04:51.220 --> 02:04:53.479
called a race, that the idea that she can call

02:04:53.479 --> 02:04:56.460
you a racist in a meeting, but you defending

02:04:56.460 --> 02:05:00.239
yourself against racism is not, it's, it's not

02:05:00.239 --> 02:05:01.539
the place for that. It's not the place for it.

02:05:01.720 --> 02:05:04.460
And in fact, this whole exchange took place with

02:05:04.460 --> 02:05:06.460
the president of the college and the provost

02:05:06.460 --> 02:05:09.220
sitting there. And what does he do? Silently.

02:05:09.239 --> 02:05:11.800
Didn't say a word. Did he move his hands? That's

02:05:11.800 --> 02:05:16.159
a really good question. I don't remember him

02:05:16.159 --> 02:05:18.699
moving his hands. I do remember him not releasing

02:05:18.699 --> 02:05:21.359
an email after that meeting saying that, in fact,

02:05:21.460 --> 02:05:26.619
on accusations of racism without evidence will

02:05:26.619 --> 02:05:28.920
not be tolerated. Well, that's pretty goddamn

02:05:28.920 --> 02:05:31.220
important. It's pretty goddamn important. And

02:05:31.220 --> 02:05:33.720
you just can't just there's there's certain hot

02:05:33.720 --> 02:05:36.779
topics that. You just got to leave alone when

02:05:36.779 --> 02:05:39.159
someone levels an accusation. This is the current

02:05:39.159 --> 02:05:42.439
progressive mindset. The current, like, PC gone

02:05:42.439 --> 02:05:46.680
awry mindset. Yeah. It's fucking crazy. Crazy.

02:05:46.720 --> 02:05:50.180
We're all even. We're all human. That's it. I

02:05:50.180 --> 02:05:51.739
don't give a shit where you're from. I don't

02:05:51.739 --> 02:05:54.279
care if you're from your ancestors or from one

02:05:54.279 --> 02:05:56.659
part of the planet or right next door. It does

02:05:56.659 --> 02:05:59.439
not matter. It's who you are. And as soon as

02:05:59.439 --> 02:06:03.239
you try to gain some sort of a leverage position

02:06:03.239 --> 02:06:06.199
because of the fact that you think that you have

02:06:06.199 --> 02:06:09.500
suffered more oppression in your family's ancestral

02:06:09.500 --> 02:06:12.340
history, we're way off track. We're way off track.

02:06:12.479 --> 02:06:15.380
The track should be equality today. That should

02:06:15.380 --> 02:06:17.579
be where we're all on this. And as soon as someone

02:06:17.579 --> 02:06:19.390
says you're a racist, but you can't. You can't

02:06:19.390 --> 02:06:21.289
defend yourself. Well, then we don't have equality

02:06:21.289 --> 02:06:24.229
anymore, man. You're trying to have anti -equality

02:06:24.229 --> 02:06:27.689
in order to bring equality to people that have

02:06:27.689 --> 02:06:29.930
been treated unethically? Is that what it is?

02:06:30.069 --> 02:06:32.189
You're absolutely right. It's structural inequity,

02:06:32.210 --> 02:06:34.210
which is the irony of the whole thing, is that

02:06:34.210 --> 02:06:37.069
people who were wrapped in the flag of equity,

02:06:37.270 --> 02:06:41.550
I challenged them because I believe in actual

02:06:41.550 --> 02:06:44.899
equity, and I was... accused of being a racist

02:06:44.899 --> 02:06:46.800
for doing it. But it also sounds like intellectual

02:06:46.800 --> 02:06:51.899
poverty too. It's like the actual structure of

02:06:51.899 --> 02:06:55.340
the thoughts that they're presenting are so poorly

02:06:55.340 --> 02:06:59.359
worded and so it's so poorly thought out and

02:06:59.359 --> 02:07:01.560
you're not allowed to defend against it. Well,

02:07:01.579 --> 02:07:04.439
that's what I was saying about the difference

02:07:04.439 --> 02:07:08.619
in assumptions and beliefs between the postmodern

02:07:08.619 --> 02:07:12.399
disciplines and, dare I say, the actual disciplines.

02:07:12.899 --> 02:07:15.380
In the postmodern disciplines, the illogic of

02:07:15.380 --> 02:07:17.260
those arguments doesn't matter because logic

02:07:17.260 --> 02:07:20.039
isn't a thing. It's a tool of oppression. Well,

02:07:21.680 --> 02:07:23.750
that's a cute way to just... Yeah. Throw a monkey

02:07:23.750 --> 02:07:26.170
wrench into the gears. Clank. That's exactly

02:07:26.170 --> 02:07:28.189
what it is. And what do they want to achieve

02:07:28.189 --> 02:07:30.590
out of this? They just want to achieve all black

02:07:30.590 --> 02:07:33.810
professors and all white people on their knees

02:07:33.810 --> 02:07:35.609
as slaves. I mean, what is that? What is the

02:07:35.609 --> 02:07:37.750
ultimate goal? You know, just people running

02:07:37.750 --> 02:07:42.789
around fetching power adapters. Yeah. I mean,

02:07:42.810 --> 02:07:45.130
I have to again, I want to be really careful.

02:07:45.310 --> 02:07:48.270
Most most people of color, most black people.

02:07:48.800 --> 02:07:51.979
Hold no truck with this. They don't want this.

02:07:52.039 --> 02:07:55.579
But a tiny number who do want this or maybe think

02:07:55.579 --> 02:07:57.659
they want it until they see what it looks like

02:07:57.659 --> 02:08:01.399
are writing the narrative. And that can't be.

02:08:01.579 --> 02:08:05.819
They're going to undo the civil rights movement.

02:08:05.859 --> 02:08:09.000
And that can't be allowed. Well, not only that,

02:08:09.119 --> 02:08:11.880
the real problem with any of this really crazy

02:08:11.880 --> 02:08:14.939
shit is that it gives fuel to actual racists.

02:08:15.710 --> 02:08:18.170
And then it makes actual racists think that these

02:08:18.170 --> 02:08:21.649
people that are involved in these protests, as

02:08:21.649 --> 02:08:24.689
misguided as they are, it makes them think that,

02:08:24.689 --> 02:08:27.550
see, look, we told you that these people are

02:08:27.550 --> 02:08:30.829
bad. See, look, we told you that there's a reason

02:08:30.829 --> 02:08:34.109
why they're inferior. And it just as soon as

02:08:34.109 --> 02:08:37.550
you as soon as you open the door to that, like

02:08:37.550 --> 02:08:40.939
you have real problems. Yeah, this plays right

02:08:40.939 --> 02:08:44.819
into the cartoonish fantasies of the absurd left

02:08:44.819 --> 02:08:47.739
that the right believes in, which is a tragedy.

02:08:47.920 --> 02:08:50.680
It is a tragedy. But I will say there's a positive

02:08:50.680 --> 02:08:54.420
outgrowth of this, I think, which is if I look

02:08:54.420 --> 02:08:57.359
in my various inboxes at the stuff that's coming

02:08:57.359 --> 02:08:59.279
in from people that I've never heard of before,

02:08:59.479 --> 02:09:05.899
this wake -up call is uniting people across every

02:09:05.899 --> 02:09:09.859
known fault line. So I'm getting letters from

02:09:09.859 --> 02:09:12.699
religious people, from very conservative people,

02:09:12.840 --> 02:09:15.560
from very progressive people. Every known fault

02:09:15.560 --> 02:09:20.739
line is cut by this, and people are galvanized

02:09:20.739 --> 02:09:24.539
by seeing something that doesn't fit any narrative

02:09:24.539 --> 02:09:26.600
they've seen before. That is to say, staring

02:09:26.600 --> 02:09:30.000
down an accusation like this is not common. Watching

02:09:30.000 --> 02:09:35.220
it stared down and the world not fall apart is...

02:09:36.490 --> 02:09:38.649
And then, you know, you mentioned it yourself,

02:09:38.810 --> 02:09:41.970
to have the Wall Street Journal and the New York

02:09:41.970 --> 02:09:45.229
Times on the same page about this, that's pretty

02:09:45.229 --> 02:09:48.890
interesting. So I do hope that what emerges from

02:09:48.890 --> 02:09:53.149
this is that all of the coalitions that exist

02:09:53.149 --> 02:09:56.189
will look at themselves and will recognize that

02:09:56.189 --> 02:09:58.989
they have, you know, maybe not every coalition

02:09:58.989 --> 02:10:00.890
has a noble part, but all of the ones that have

02:10:00.890 --> 02:10:02.930
a noble part will understand that it's paired

02:10:02.930 --> 02:10:06.750
with something that isn't noble. I'm hoping that

02:10:06.750 --> 02:10:11.489
people who find themselves ill -served by the

02:10:11.489 --> 02:10:14.289
narrative will join together and that basically,

02:10:14.409 --> 02:10:16.689
you know, a coalition of the reasonable might

02:10:16.689 --> 02:10:21.069
emerge. Well, that's a beautiful hope. And I

02:10:21.069 --> 02:10:23.569
share that hope with you. I mean, I really hope

02:10:23.569 --> 02:10:26.130
that what's happening is that in these insulated

02:10:26.130 --> 02:10:28.590
environments of these universities and colleges

02:10:28.590 --> 02:10:31.430
where things just get crazy, that when word leaks

02:10:31.430 --> 02:10:33.550
out that they get crazy, it's very much like

02:10:33.550 --> 02:10:35.989
cults. When you hear about Jonestown, you're

02:10:35.989 --> 02:10:37.890
like, hey man, don't drink the fucking Kool -Aid.

02:10:37.970 --> 02:10:41.449
Something's going on down there. But these group

02:10:41.449 --> 02:10:45.270
mindsets that people fall into. You know, oftentimes

02:10:45.270 --> 02:10:49.090
when you're in the hive and you're in the middle

02:10:49.090 --> 02:10:51.829
of it, it can all be very, very confusing. My

02:10:51.829 --> 02:10:56.109
hope is that as more people find out about the

02:10:56.109 --> 02:10:58.109
preposterous behavior that's going on in these

02:10:58.109 --> 02:11:00.050
universities and colleges and how people are.

02:11:00.329 --> 02:11:02.960
I mean, these are young people that. don't have

02:11:02.960 --> 02:11:05.100
a fully formed frontal cortex and are about to

02:11:05.100 --> 02:11:07.720
enter into the world. And they're doing this

02:11:07.720 --> 02:11:10.619
with this ridiculous momentum of these silly

02:11:10.619 --> 02:11:12.779
ideas. And there's people that want to enforce

02:11:12.779 --> 02:11:14.979
that more and more. And that these people, some

02:11:14.979 --> 02:11:18.220
of them are actually professors at the very college

02:11:18.220 --> 02:11:21.840
where this is going on. I mean, that to me is

02:11:21.840 --> 02:11:24.500
one of the weirder aspects of it. And one of

02:11:24.500 --> 02:11:27.239
the things that scares people a lot. It's the

02:11:27.239 --> 02:11:29.319
idea that these people are going to live in these

02:11:29.319 --> 02:11:31.039
insulated environments and then they're going

02:11:31.039 --> 02:11:32.760
to go and get their graduate degree and then

02:11:32.760 --> 02:11:34.140
they're going to start teaching. And then they're

02:11:34.140 --> 02:11:36.460
going to go right back with these same ideas

02:11:36.460 --> 02:11:38.779
in this insulated environment and never really

02:11:38.779 --> 02:11:41.319
go out into the world where the marketplace of

02:11:41.319 --> 02:11:43.960
ideas has roundly rejected a lot of these notions

02:11:43.960 --> 02:11:46.199
that they're trying to pass off through logic

02:11:46.199 --> 02:11:49.239
and debate and actual discourse. Not through

02:11:49.239 --> 02:11:51.180
shutting people down because of the color of

02:11:51.180 --> 02:11:54.699
their skin or lack of or excess amount of melanin.

02:11:54.760 --> 02:11:57.319
I mean that's not – That's not how human beings

02:11:57.319 --> 02:12:00.819
should be behaving in 2017. It's just not. So

02:12:00.819 --> 02:12:03.920
when you see it so evident and so prominent and

02:12:03.920 --> 02:12:07.960
so commonplace in universities and colleges,

02:12:08.260 --> 02:12:11.060
there's so many people on the outside looking

02:12:11.060 --> 02:12:16.239
back, looking in at this rather, are baffled

02:12:16.239 --> 02:12:19.979
and for the first time enraged. Well, I think

02:12:19.979 --> 02:12:22.300
what you just described is exactly how this happened.

02:12:24.720 --> 02:12:27.239
The critical race theorists and the postmodernists

02:12:27.239 --> 02:12:31.939
are, you know, third generation by now. And so

02:12:31.939 --> 02:12:35.520
this has matured into a movement that wishes

02:12:35.520 --> 02:12:38.300
to reformulate the world according to what it

02:12:38.300 --> 02:12:40.819
thinks it understands. But it's so confused about

02:12:40.819 --> 02:12:46.840
the nature of reality that it's just hard to

02:12:46.840 --> 02:12:49.699
even describe how preposterous it looks as it...

02:12:50.039 --> 02:12:53.840
Because they go from being at the university

02:12:53.840 --> 02:12:56.359
to eventually teaching at that same university.

02:12:56.720 --> 02:12:58.399
Well, it doesn't have to be the same one. Or

02:12:58.399 --> 02:13:02.180
a. Yeah, they come to maturity inside a field

02:13:02.180 --> 02:13:04.500
where these things sound reasonable. And then

02:13:04.500 --> 02:13:06.720
they go on to teach them to students. And so,

02:13:06.840 --> 02:13:10.739
you know, the intensity and absurdity grows with

02:13:10.739 --> 02:13:17.319
each of those generations. And I think had they

02:13:17.319 --> 02:13:21.729
been exposed to. The real world in the context

02:13:21.729 --> 02:13:23.850
of having to make sense in order to make a living,

02:13:23.949 --> 02:13:27.069
which, you know, I'm not a big fan of capitalism,

02:13:27.350 --> 02:13:30.529
but nonetheless, just even having to interface

02:13:30.529 --> 02:13:32.930
with the world and make enough sense to get by

02:13:32.930 --> 02:13:35.409
would enforce a kind of mental discipline that

02:13:35.409 --> 02:13:38.890
is not evident here. Yeah, mental discipline

02:13:38.890 --> 02:13:40.789
is a good way to describe it, too. I mean, it

02:13:40.789 --> 02:13:47.010
just it seems like like the idea that. Not only

02:13:47.010 --> 02:13:49.869
should there not be a level playing field, but

02:13:49.869 --> 02:13:53.329
you should force a playing field that's not level.

02:13:53.689 --> 02:13:57.789
Permanently not level. Yeah. It's crazy. And

02:13:57.789 --> 02:14:00.489
obviously the world agrees, or a good percentage

02:14:00.489 --> 02:14:03.149
of it. It's not even, I mean, I'm sure there's

02:14:03.149 --> 02:14:05.689
some bias in who writes and who doesn't, but

02:14:05.689 --> 02:14:07.350
I would actually imagine there'd be some pressure

02:14:07.350 --> 02:14:09.649
if you were really angry with me out in the world

02:14:09.649 --> 02:14:13.689
to write to me. And I don't know, I must have

02:14:13.689 --> 02:14:20.239
a thousand, highly supportive emails, all kinds

02:14:20.239 --> 02:14:23.539
of emails from amazing, interesting people all

02:14:23.539 --> 02:14:27.939
over the world now. And a few angry emails. And

02:14:27.939 --> 02:14:32.000
I think, I don't know if it's three or four angry

02:14:32.000 --> 02:14:34.840
emails and two of them come from inside the college.

02:14:35.119 --> 02:14:38.720
Yeah, I'm sure. Some of them must be some of

02:14:38.720 --> 02:14:40.800
the professors that realize that this is a fucking

02:14:40.800 --> 02:14:44.539
sinking ship that's on fire. You can't keep doing

02:14:44.539 --> 02:14:46.479
that. This is not going to end well. You can't

02:14:46.479 --> 02:14:48.600
double down. That's what they keep doing. Well,

02:14:48.600 --> 02:14:52.340
they keep double down. So what happens now? Do

02:14:52.340 --> 02:14:58.399
you just wait for the dust to settle? I don't

02:14:58.399 --> 02:15:02.000
know. This has never happened to you before.

02:15:02.100 --> 02:15:04.550
This is a very unique moment in your life. Completely.

02:15:04.609 --> 02:15:08.069
How old are you? I'm 48. So your whole life,

02:15:08.130 --> 02:15:10.510
essentially... Well, we should be careful there.

02:15:10.569 --> 02:15:12.489
There have actually been a number... Nothing

02:15:12.489 --> 02:15:15.069
like this has ever happened. The intensity of

02:15:15.069 --> 02:15:17.569
this, the national nature of it is all completely

02:15:17.569 --> 02:15:21.149
unprecedented, and it's pushing both me and my

02:15:21.149 --> 02:15:23.210
wife to our absolute limit of what we can do,

02:15:23.250 --> 02:15:25.750
just even fielding all of the stuff that is coming

02:15:25.750 --> 02:15:29.069
across our desks and all. That said, there is

02:15:29.069 --> 02:15:34.500
a precedent. when I was a freshman in college,

02:15:34.880 --> 02:15:41.100
and I've had battles inside of my field. And

02:15:41.100 --> 02:15:48.000
so what I would say is that when one has deep

02:15:48.000 --> 02:15:51.819
principles and one acts based on those principles,

02:15:51.899 --> 02:15:55.720
irrespective of the, I guess what would be called

02:15:55.720 --> 02:16:00.460
optics, you find yourself the one against the

02:16:00.460 --> 02:16:03.359
many. repeatedly, just by virtue of the way the

02:16:03.359 --> 02:16:06.520
world works. And so this is without precedent

02:16:06.520 --> 02:16:08.579
in terms of the magnitude of it. But it's not

02:16:08.579 --> 02:16:10.760
the first time that I've found that just simply

02:16:10.760 --> 02:16:13.220
proceeding from principles that I'm pretty sure

02:16:13.220 --> 02:16:16.439
are right based on careful work has resulted

02:16:16.439 --> 02:16:20.199
in something boiling over in some amazing fashion.

02:16:21.979 --> 02:16:27.489
Have you explored the possibility of teaching

02:16:27.489 --> 02:16:30.250
outside of a university or college structure?

02:16:30.430 --> 02:16:33.170
Have you explored the possibility of using new

02:16:33.170 --> 02:16:39.389
media, whether it's online video, audio, text,

02:16:39.850 --> 02:16:43.110
in terms of publishing things and maybe having

02:16:43.110 --> 02:16:45.190
a Patreon page or something along those lines?

02:16:45.430 --> 02:16:47.170
Well, I would love to do it, actually, because

02:16:47.170 --> 02:16:50.489
at the moment, the college has been a great place

02:16:50.489 --> 02:16:55.430
to do this because of the unusual teaching model.

02:16:56.640 --> 02:17:00.139
It's becoming less fun. I mean, even if I wasn't

02:17:00.139 --> 02:17:03.200
at the center of this firestorm, the rules that

02:17:03.200 --> 02:17:06.600
are being instituted and the diversity sensitivity

02:17:06.600 --> 02:17:08.299
training that's coming and all of those things.

02:17:08.420 --> 02:17:10.069
What is that? What do they make you do? Well,

02:17:10.110 --> 02:17:11.569
they haven't done it yet. You need to learn how

02:17:11.569 --> 02:17:13.829
to not be racist. Right. So they have to assume

02:17:13.829 --> 02:17:16.090
that you have these issues in the first place.

02:17:16.229 --> 02:17:18.270
Right. So they, first of all, why would they

02:17:18.270 --> 02:17:20.770
ever hire you if they thought that you were discriminatory?

02:17:21.049 --> 02:17:23.510
And then second, what is going to be done? Has

02:17:23.510 --> 02:17:26.149
it ever been proven ever that you can change

02:17:26.149 --> 02:17:32.430
people through compulsory remapping of their

02:17:32.430 --> 02:17:36.829
brain and anti -racist? Some sort of a, what

02:17:36.829 --> 02:17:40.329
is it? It's like a two -day seminar thing? Something

02:17:40.329 --> 02:17:42.790
like that. Well, the thing is, none of this makes

02:17:42.790 --> 02:17:46.049
any sense because let's say this. Let's say that

02:17:46.049 --> 02:17:49.469
all white people pick up racism from their environment

02:17:49.469 --> 02:17:52.670
developmentally. They can't help it. So we know

02:17:52.670 --> 02:17:55.049
you're a racist. Wow. Okay. Well, if we know

02:17:55.049 --> 02:17:57.590
you're a racist, then what's the remedy? Okay.

02:17:57.629 --> 02:18:00.469
The remedy is going to be some sort of sensitivity

02:18:00.469 --> 02:18:04.920
training. But if sensitivity training works,

02:18:05.120 --> 02:18:07.200
then how do you know I haven't already had experiences

02:18:07.200 --> 02:18:09.360
that have done this for me? How do you know?

02:18:09.700 --> 02:18:13.260
Right. Right. So the whole thing is illogical.

02:18:13.280 --> 02:18:15.920
And frankly, I think it's punitive. I think I

02:18:15.920 --> 02:18:18.219
think the real purpose is we would like to lecture

02:18:18.219 --> 02:18:23.079
you. Yeah. So like that, in answer to your question

02:18:23.079 --> 02:18:26.059
about have I considered working outside the college

02:18:26.059 --> 02:18:29.340
system, I've considered it. The real question

02:18:29.340 --> 02:18:31.860
is how to operationalize it so that I don't.

02:18:32.010 --> 02:18:38.090
strand my family because evergreen um provides

02:18:38.090 --> 02:18:40.870
a very high quality of life we live well in a

02:18:40.870 --> 02:18:43.489
you know beautiful setting but doesn't pay well

02:18:43.489 --> 02:18:45.790
so we haven't accumulated the resources where

02:18:45.790 --> 02:18:49.110
i can just um cut the umbilical cord and go take

02:18:49.110 --> 02:18:53.030
this stuff to a different audience so um i would

02:18:53.030 --> 02:18:54.889
love to find a different way to do it isn't there

02:18:54.889 --> 02:18:57.690
a way to do it in the meanwhile like you don't

02:18:57.690 --> 02:19:00.200
have to leave one to do the other Well, that's

02:19:00.200 --> 02:19:03.020
certainly true. And I wouldn't be averse to starting

02:19:03.020 --> 02:19:05.879
something like that while teaching at Evergreen.

02:19:07.000 --> 02:19:09.959
I really hope you do, because I think you have

02:19:09.959 --> 02:19:11.620
some really interesting ideas and you're a very

02:19:11.620 --> 02:19:14.299
smart guy. And obviously your heart, your mind

02:19:14.299 --> 02:19:15.860
is in the right place. And it seems like before

02:19:15.860 --> 02:19:18.639
all this boiled over with this new president.

02:19:19.610 --> 02:19:22.590
Things were going the way you would enjoy them

02:19:22.590 --> 02:19:25.190
going, this individualized attention, the freedom

02:19:25.190 --> 02:19:28.149
to teach anything you want. I mean, it sounds

02:19:28.149 --> 02:19:30.370
wonderful in the hands of the right person, and

02:19:30.370 --> 02:19:32.010
you seem to be the right person. It's beautiful.

02:19:32.229 --> 02:19:34.690
Yeah. I just feel like the whole idea of going

02:19:34.690 --> 02:19:37.989
to a place and learning, I mean, it sounded like

02:19:37.989 --> 02:19:39.770
a great idea back when that was how it had to

02:19:39.770 --> 02:19:42.229
be done, but it doesn't take into account the

02:19:42.229 --> 02:19:45.899
wonderful Internet that we all have. The ability

02:19:45.899 --> 02:19:48.360
that you have now with this platform, with the

02:19:48.360 --> 02:19:50.319
amount of attention that's on you right now to

02:19:50.319 --> 02:19:52.459
launch something is really you're never going

02:19:52.459 --> 02:19:53.920
to have anything like this ever again in your

02:19:53.920 --> 02:19:58.700
life. Hopefully. Yeah. From your mouth to God's

02:19:58.700 --> 02:20:02.159
ear. You know? Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll take that

02:20:02.159 --> 02:20:04.139
as a piece of advice. This is the moment to launch

02:20:04.139 --> 02:20:06.420
such a thing. Listen, do it. I'll help you. I'll

02:20:06.420 --> 02:20:09.280
promote it. I'll tweet it. I'll put it on Instagram.

02:20:09.440 --> 02:20:11.239
I'll put it on Facebook. I'll let people know.

02:20:11.420 --> 02:20:14.579
Wow. Thank you. Yeah. It's just. I think that's

02:20:14.579 --> 02:20:17.840
the future. I think the future is people educating

02:20:17.840 --> 02:20:22.520
anybody, like anybody who wants it, whether you're

02:20:22.520 --> 02:20:25.760
here or there. You don't have to be in a specific

02:20:25.760 --> 02:20:31.750
location. Maybe a lot of this can be overcome

02:20:31.750 --> 02:20:36.170
if we don't have these groups of people that

02:20:36.170 --> 02:20:39.510
live in these echo chambers and constantly circulate

02:20:39.510 --> 02:20:42.370
in these same groups that reinforce these opinions

02:20:42.370 --> 02:20:45.530
and experience all this confirmation bias that

02:20:45.530 --> 02:20:49.379
makes them. believe that this is all correct

02:20:49.379 --> 02:20:52.180
and the rest of the world is just misinformed

02:20:52.180 --> 02:20:54.819
and don't understand. But clearly by that email,

02:20:55.120 --> 02:21:00.219
a big problem is the staff itself. Yeah, I don't

02:21:00.219 --> 02:21:02.459
want to say the staff. Or whoever. The administrators

02:21:02.459 --> 02:21:06.319
and some faculty. They're crazy. They are crazy.

02:21:06.540 --> 02:21:08.879
Calling you alt -right or saying this is alt

02:21:08.879 --> 02:21:12.040
-right and that you're racist and misinformation.

02:21:12.180 --> 02:21:15.329
I mean, that is... That's slander. I mean, it

02:21:15.329 --> 02:21:18.129
really is. Yeah. Well, it's slander. It's also

02:21:18.129 --> 02:21:20.250
I think it's just worth pointing out kind of

02:21:20.250 --> 02:21:22.290
funny. Yeah. I mean, they should have something

02:21:22.290 --> 02:21:24.809
to back those claims up. Those are just empty

02:21:24.809 --> 02:21:27.969
claims. They're beyond empty claims. I mean,

02:21:28.110 --> 02:21:33.909
you know, I'm a Bernie Sanders voter. If I'm

02:21:33.909 --> 02:21:37.340
all right. I mean, where are they? Yeah. Tucker

02:21:37.340 --> 02:21:39.059
Carlson tried to say you were a Hillary supporter.

02:21:39.379 --> 02:21:42.299
I was like, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. What

02:21:42.299 --> 02:21:46.159
did you just say about me? Man. It's just, have

02:21:46.159 --> 02:21:49.940
you thought about contacting an attorney? I am

02:21:49.940 --> 02:21:53.059
getting offers and people are contacting me saying

02:21:53.059 --> 02:21:55.520
I should. You should. As long as they keep that

02:21:55.520 --> 02:21:57.319
guy as president, you should definitely contact

02:21:57.319 --> 02:21:59.500
an attorney. And if they're going to put shit

02:21:59.500 --> 02:22:01.139
like that on the Internet, because for every

02:22:01.139 --> 02:22:03.180
person like me who reads it and goes, this is

02:22:03.180 --> 02:22:05.479
nonsense, there's going to be a possibility of

02:22:05.479 --> 02:22:07.420
someone reading it and go, oh, that Brett Weinstein

02:22:07.420 --> 02:22:09.559
guy is a racist. Oh, that Brett Weinstein guy

02:22:09.559 --> 02:22:12.659
is alt -right. Oh, he uses misinformation in

02:22:12.659 --> 02:22:16.120
the media and he's actively sought out this attention

02:22:16.120 --> 02:22:18.559
and he's doing this to damage. the relationship

02:22:18.559 --> 02:22:20.020
with the schools he's doing this out of spite

02:22:20.020 --> 02:22:22.059
because he was called out for being a racist

02:22:22.059 --> 02:22:24.420
and we have this professor who says he's a racist

02:22:24.420 --> 02:22:26.819
and she said it to his face and he didn't defend

02:22:26.819 --> 02:22:28.899
himself i mean all that kind of shit that's how

02:22:28.899 --> 02:22:32.739
it boils over yep no i mean it's clearly it's

02:22:32.739 --> 02:22:35.360
clearly justified and they won't listen to anything

02:22:35.360 --> 02:22:38.819
else i've tried everything else so Maybe that's

02:22:38.819 --> 02:22:41.600
just simply the answer. I really hope you do

02:22:41.600 --> 02:22:43.979
something alternative. I really do. Because I

02:22:43.979 --> 02:22:46.860
think if someone like you who has this unprecedented

02:22:46.860 --> 02:22:50.739
platform where you have been launched into the

02:22:50.739 --> 02:22:52.620
public eye because so many people are outraged

02:22:52.620 --> 02:22:54.040
about this. I know you were on my friend Dave

02:22:54.040 --> 02:22:57.180
Rubin's show, and I'm sure there's going to be

02:22:57.180 --> 02:22:59.280
a thousand other requests after people hear this

02:22:59.280 --> 02:23:03.459
as well. People don't want this to be the case

02:23:03.459 --> 02:23:05.020
anymore, and they want to do whatever they can

02:23:05.020 --> 02:23:07.780
to stop that. And they also want to support people

02:23:07.780 --> 02:23:09.920
that are brilliant people like yourself that

02:23:09.920 --> 02:23:12.159
have wonderful ideas that we would like our kids

02:23:12.159 --> 02:23:14.139
to learn if they do go to college somewhere.

02:23:14.360 --> 02:23:17.100
We'd like people to be educated in these unique

02:23:17.100 --> 02:23:20.440
facets of the world and have a platform where

02:23:20.440 --> 02:23:23.760
you could teach evolutionary biology unhindered

02:23:23.760 --> 02:23:27.680
and unshackled by this. fucking nonsense that

02:23:27.680 --> 02:23:30.440
you're dealing with. Garbage. Yeah, well, it's

02:23:30.440 --> 02:23:33.020
a great idea. And, you know, I don't know. It

02:23:33.020 --> 02:23:37.950
may be that the... university system is so encrusted

02:23:37.950 --> 02:23:40.350
with this stuff at this point that it can't be

02:23:40.350 --> 02:23:43.190
freed? That's what Jordan Peterson thinks. I've

02:23:43.190 --> 02:23:44.909
talked to quite a few other professors that think

02:23:44.909 --> 02:23:47.750
that as well. Gad Saad, he believes it as well.

02:23:47.809 --> 02:23:49.350
He believes there's just a certain amount of

02:23:49.350 --> 02:23:52.969
time left in this system where it's just so caked

02:23:52.969 --> 02:23:55.629
up that maybe the only way to deal with it is

02:23:55.629 --> 02:23:59.159
to abandon it. Well, and then we would have to

02:23:59.159 --> 02:24:01.479
reformulate it. Yes. Which would be, you know,

02:24:01.479 --> 02:24:04.260
unlike civilization, the university system could

02:24:04.260 --> 02:24:06.280
be reformulated. We could start with a fresh

02:24:06.280 --> 02:24:08.360
sheet of paper. And it's probably very dangerous

02:24:08.360 --> 02:24:10.420
to not have a university system. You can't not

02:24:10.420 --> 02:24:12.479
have it. Right. You have to. It's the way we

02:24:12.479 --> 02:24:14.479
figure out what's true. Right. And there's got

02:24:14.479 --> 02:24:18.440
to be a way to save it while cutting out all

02:24:18.440 --> 02:24:21.860
these cancerous aspects of it. Or start it afresh.

02:24:21.860 --> 02:24:25.000
You know, we could leave the carcass to the postmodernists.

02:24:25.690 --> 02:24:27.670
build something that works outside where we don't

02:24:27.670 --> 02:24:29.149
have to let them in. And then there'll be a whole

02:24:29.149 --> 02:24:30.850
group of people just talking about what a piece

02:24:30.850 --> 02:24:33.290
of shit you are that's locked in some classroom

02:24:33.290 --> 02:24:35.809
somewhere demonstrating all the different terrible

02:24:35.809 --> 02:24:38.250
things that you've done to bring horrible things

02:24:38.250 --> 02:24:41.770
upon the college. It's just, boy, it's such a

02:24:41.770 --> 02:24:45.950
strange world you're in right now. It is really,

02:24:46.049 --> 02:24:49.450
it's almost more dreamlike than dreams are. Are

02:24:49.450 --> 02:24:51.989
you sleeping? That's a good question. Usually

02:24:51.989 --> 02:24:57.020
I sleep pretty well. This one, I mean, partly

02:24:57.020 --> 02:24:59.500
it's just the number of hours trying to field

02:24:59.500 --> 02:25:03.260
everything means I go to bed late and then, you

02:25:03.260 --> 02:25:07.299
know, by the time the sun comes up, the question

02:25:07.299 --> 02:25:09.219
is how much more stuff is accumulated. So less

02:25:09.219 --> 02:25:15.559
than I might. I don't, I guess the thing is I'm

02:25:15.559 --> 02:25:17.940
worried about what's going on. I'm worried about

02:25:17.940 --> 02:25:20.079
the danger to my family. That gets in the road

02:25:20.079 --> 02:25:24.040
of sleep. I know that what I'm doing makes sense,

02:25:24.100 --> 02:25:27.819
even if. My colleagues don't understand that.

02:25:28.940 --> 02:25:32.000
So I'm not getting enough sleep, that's for sure.

02:25:32.059 --> 02:25:36.059
But I'm also not ripped apart by doubt. Well,

02:25:36.079 --> 02:25:38.120
you've done nothing wrong. So you don't have

02:25:38.120 --> 02:25:41.579
that blanket of guilt. Like, why did I do that?

02:25:41.700 --> 02:25:44.100
What could I have done differently? Right. You

02:25:44.100 --> 02:25:47.120
know, you're not. You're not Kathy Griffin right

02:25:47.120 --> 02:25:52.059
now. No. You know what I mean? So I really hope

02:25:52.059 --> 02:25:54.479
this works out well for you, and I'll be paying

02:25:54.479 --> 02:25:57.579
attention every step of the way. And my offer

02:25:57.579 --> 02:26:00.040
is real. If you need some help, if you decide

02:26:00.040 --> 02:26:02.200
to put something together and you need some help

02:26:02.200 --> 02:26:03.879
promoting it, I'd be more than happy to. And

02:26:03.879 --> 02:26:05.620
I'm sure there's been a lot of people listening

02:26:05.620 --> 02:26:07.120
to this that would love to hear your ideas on

02:26:07.120 --> 02:26:09.620
things. Great. Well, thank you so much. Thanks,

02:26:09.659 --> 02:26:11.100
man. Thanks for coming in here. All right. I

02:26:11.100 --> 02:26:14.059
really appreciate it. Yeah, me too. That's it,

02:26:14.100 --> 02:26:16.340
folks. We're done for today. We'll see you next

02:26:16.340 --> 02:26:17.059
week. Bye.