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Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1109. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Sleep Science, Neuroscience, and Brain Health Optimization
And we're live. What's going on? Did you sleep

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well last night? I did. I didn't sleep too badly.

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I mean, hotels are a tough thing. And we actually

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know the science that one half of your brain

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will actually not sleep as deeply than the other

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when you're sleeping in an unusual room like

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a hotel room. Really? That's what fucks me up.

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Because when I'm on the road, you know, I'll

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do. three different hotels in a week because

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I'll do like a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, like

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with gigs. And then by the time Sunday rolls

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around, I'm a mess. In rough shape. Yeah. Is

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that what it is? Yeah. And it's a threat detection

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thing. I mean, if you look at other species,

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they can do this much more impressively than

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we can. So dolphins or any sort of sea dwelling

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mammal can actually sleep with half a brain.

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So one half of their brain goes into deep sleep.

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The other half is wide awake. That's how people

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at the DMV do it. Those people that work at the

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Department of Motor Vehicles, they work half

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asleep. You ever meet them? I haven't, no. Just

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teasing you. It's your DMV listening, going,

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fuck you, man. Next time you come in, get your

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license renewed. There's my next NIH grant, I

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think, looking at the DMV and sleep. TSA workers,

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same thing. Same type of human. That I've come

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across. Yeah. Them too. I'm just kidding, fuckers.

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Relax. So when you're in a hotel room, what is

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happening that half your brain is not really

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sleeping? Yeah, so there's different stages of

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sleep. There are two principal types. One is

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non -rapid eye movement sleep or non -REM sleep.

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The other is REM sleep, which is also known as

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dream sleep. Right. And non -rapid eye movement

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sleep is further divided into four separate stages.

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which are unimaginatively called stages one through

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four. We're a creative bunch. It is true, but

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I think it's also our low IQ. But it's the deep

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stages of sleep, three and four of that non -rapid

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eye movement. That's where a lot of sort of body

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replenishment takes place, great for the cardiovascular

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system, metabolism, all of those good things.

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But that's the deep sleep that one half of your

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brain will resist going into when you're sleeping

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in a foreign environment. It stays in this kind

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of lighter stage, almost like a threat detection

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system. And you can imagine why, you know, it's

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an unusual context. Evolutionarily, it would

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make a lot of sense to just have that sort of

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on guard one half of the brain. That makes so

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much sense. And that really, for me, it fills

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in the blanks of like why, even if I get, you

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know, seven, eight hours sleep on the road, I'm

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still kind of. just out of it yeah and that's

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in fact probably one of the i think the most

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impressive parts of new research on sleep it's

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not just about quantity it's also about quality

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and quality can be as detrimental if you don't

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get it as a reduction in total quality i mean

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both are essential right but i think it speaks

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exactly to your point you just don't feel like

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it's a refreshing sort of deep sleep um yeah

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it feels totally different um it just it feels

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like I guess I would say it feels like half asleep.

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I mean, it's really kind of how it does feel.

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One of the things that I noticed, I did this

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thing with my friends called Sober October where

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we didn't smoke any pot or do any, no drinking

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at all, nothing for a month. And when I did it,

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one of the things I found was that after about,

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I don't know how many days, but it was noticeable.

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that I would have these incredibly vivid dreams.

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And then I had read that marijuana does something

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to suppress heavy REM sleep. Like what is happening

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there? Yeah, so both of those chemicals, both

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of which are used as a sleep aid, alcohol and

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marijuana, are actually very good at blocking

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your dream sleep, your rapid eye movement sleep.

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And so what happens is that the brain is quite

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clever in this regard. It builds up a clock counter

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of how much dream sleep you should have had.

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but have not been getting. And it starts to develop

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this increasing appetite and hunger for dream

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sleep so that finally when the alcohol actually

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gets out of your system, sober October, love

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the name, that's all of a sudden where you get

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what's called a REM sleep rebound effect where

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you not only get the normal amount of REM sleep

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that you would normally have, you get that plus

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the brain tries to get back some of that dream

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sleep that it's been losing over the past maybe

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11 months. Try 20 years. Yeah, I didn't want

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to make any assumptions. So you get this REM

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sleep rebounded effect, and that's where you

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have these really intense dream sleep situations.

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It's the same reason that people, they'll say,

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like, I had a bit too much to drink last night.

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Maybe it was a Friday or Saturday. They sleep

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in late. They say, I just had these crazy dreams.

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What happens there is a kind of an acute version

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where the alcohol is swilling around in your

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system. And after about six hours, your liver

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and your kidneys have finally excreted all of

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the alcohol. And your brain has been deprived

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of dream sleep for that first six hours. So then

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it feasts in the last couple of hours. And that's

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why you have these really bizarre dreams after

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you've been drinking a little bit too much. Oh,

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wow. So what is happening with marijuana, though,

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specifically? Do you know? Yeah. So marijuana,

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it does help people. Well, help it. It puts people

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to sleep quicker. Although I think the question

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is whether it's really naturalistic sleep or

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not that they go into. Certainly with alcohol,

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it's not. That nightcap idea is a misnomer. Alcohol

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will actually, well, it's a form of drugs that

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we call the sedatives. And sedation is not sleep.

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It's very different. But we often mistake one

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for the other. Marijuana seems to act in a physiologically

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very different way. It doesn't target the same

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receptors in the brain. So it's unclear whether

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the speed with which you fall asleep after having

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a session with marijuana is actually natural

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sleep. Let's assume it is. The problem, however,

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is that it then will start to disrupt REM sleep.

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It will start to block the process. We think

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perhaps at the level of the brainstem, which

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is where these two types of sleep, non -REM and

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REM sleep, will actually get sort of worked out.

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That's where marijuana may actually impact dream

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sleep and shut it down and block it. Have there

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been any studies on chronic marijuana smokers,

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like those dawn -to -dust type characters? That

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just are constantly high? Like, and what happens

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to their brain? Because they must never hit REM

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sleep. Yeah, so people haven't looked at marijuana.

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They have looked at alcohol, though. Exactly

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that. So what happens is if you look at alcoholics,

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they will have something often when they come

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off alcohol, something called delirium tremens,

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which is where sort of DT. There what happens

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is that the alcohol has been blocking dream sleep

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for so long and the pressure for dream sleep

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is built up so powerfully in the brain, it actually

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just spills over into wakefulness. And so the

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brain just says, look, okay, if I'm not going

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to get this dream sleep whilst you're asleep,

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I'm just going to take it whilst you're awake.

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And so you start to essentially dream while you're

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awake. It's this sort of collision of two states

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of consciousness. So you get delirium. Wow. I

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always thought the DTs were detoxing. When someone

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says someone's going through the DTs. Okay, yeah.

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So it's delirium tremor. Yeah, delirium tremors.

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So what is going on with them when this is happening?

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So if they are going through this delirium during

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the day while they're conscious, what's physiologically

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happening? So it's almost as though the veil

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of REM sleep gets pulled over the waking brain,

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as it were. So you have this mixed state of consciousness

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that you can pick up with brainwave recordings.

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Wow. And it just tells me, I mean, in some ways,

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how... necessary sleep must be if that's the

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lengths that the brain will go to to get that

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which it's been missing yeah just shows you why

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you know it took mother nature 3 .6 million years

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to put this thing called an eight hour sleep

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necessity in place and we've come along and within

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the space of 100 years we've lopped off almost

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20 percent of that if you look at the data wow

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really yeah And so many people take pride in

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that, too. I don't need eight hours sleep. I

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got three. I'm good, ready to go, kick ass and

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dominate the world. Yeah. It's the sort of like

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sleep machismo sort of attitude. There is a lot

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of that, right? Yeah. Not me, baby. I like sleep.

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Well, I mean, you'd be glad to know that then,

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you know, men who sleep five to six hours a night

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will have a level of testosterone, which is that

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of someone 10 years their senior. So a lack of

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sleep will age you by a decade in terms of that

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critical aspect of wellness, virility, muscle

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strength. Ten years. That's incredible. Wow.

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We had a woman on the podcast. Her name is Courtney

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DeWalter, and she's a ultra marathon runner.

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And she ran. She's a real freak. I mean, like

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an incredible athlete. She ran this thing called

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the Moab 240. It's 238 miles through the Moab

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Mountains. And she did it 22 miles faster than

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the second place man. So she won it by like a

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whopping, I think it was 10 hours, 10 hours ahead

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of the second place winner. And she slept one

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minute, one minute the entire time. She tried

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to lie. This is over three days. I think it took

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her less than three days. I think it took her

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like two days. She slept. For one minute during

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the entire time. She tried to lie down. She said

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she laid down for a few minutes, but she couldn't

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fall asleep. And then she wound up actually just

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taking one minute and going to sleep. And she

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said that one minute was like one of the most

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intense, restful minutes. After that minute is

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over, she was woken up because she told her partner,

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her running partner, to wake her up at a minute.

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And she's like, how long did you let me sleep?

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And he was like, one minute. She's like, wow,

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I feel great. Let's go. But she was saying that

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she hallucinates and that she starts seeing like

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rabbits are talking to her and she sees things

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that aren't there and like mystical beings and

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stuff. She said it's really freaky, but she knows

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that she's hallucinating because she's done this.

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She's done a bunch of ultra marathons. So she

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just keeps going. She just keeps going. She's

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like saying hi to rabbits. They're talking to

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her and stuff. Yeah. I mean, and you see these

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reports. too. I mean, there's a race, a cycling

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race, I think it's bike across America. You've

00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:44.639
just got to go from East Coast to West Coast

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in as short a time as possible. And that's exactly

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what they do too. It's all about managing how

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little sleep that you get. And they will explain

00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:55.019
these wild hallucinogenic experiences on the

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bike. If you look at world records for people

00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:01.559
who have tried to sort of go without sleep, one

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of the most famous examples is a radio disc jockey

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called Peter Tripp. back in the um it was back

00:11:07.750 --> 00:11:11.929
in the sort of 60s 50s 60s and he tried to break

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the world record he went eight days straight

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um and yeah With no sleep? Yeah, he was broadcasting

00:11:18.289 --> 00:11:20.950
from Times Square. He would do a show there.

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And, you know, the scientist, the psychiatrist

00:11:23.289 --> 00:11:25.110
said, look, this is a very bad idea based on

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what we know. Please don't do it. And he said,

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I'm going to do it anyway. And then the scientist

00:11:29.169 --> 00:11:31.110
being the good scientist, they said, great. Do

00:11:31.110 --> 00:11:32.470
you mind if we study you? Because it'd be a great

00:11:32.470 --> 00:11:34.889
paper to sort of, you know, to write up. And

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they tracked him. And by day three, he was having

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florid. delusions and hallucinations. He was

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seeing spiders in his shoes. He became desperately

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paranoid. He started to think that people were

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trying to poison him in his food. One point,

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it was the middle of winter. Some guys came in

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with sort of these, it was New York winter time,

00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:55.360
came in with these big jackets. He thought it

00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:56.919
was the Secret Service coming to get him and

00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:00.259
he ran out into the road. You know, these are

00:12:00.259 --> 00:12:02.820
strange things. But so we know that that same

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profile of just starting to become, you know,

00:12:05.419 --> 00:12:08.340
psychotic, which is, Essentially what happens

00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:11.019
naturally when you dream that you are, I mean,

00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.419
all of us here, you know, as long as we slept

00:12:13.419 --> 00:12:16.200
last night, became flagrantly psychotic when

00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.779
we went into dream sleep because you start to

00:12:18.779 --> 00:12:21.159
see things which are not there. So you hallucinate.

00:12:21.220 --> 00:12:23.480
You believe things that couldn't possibly be

00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:26.100
true. So you're delusional. You get confused

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about time, place and person. So you're suffering

00:12:28.740 --> 00:12:32.059
from disorientation. You have wildly fluctuating

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emotions, something that psychiatrists call being

00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.539
sort of affectively labile. And then how wonderful.

00:12:37.700 --> 00:12:40.039
We both woke up this morning and we forgot most,

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if not all of that dream experience. So we're

00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.440
suffering from amnesia. What is happening when

00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.159
you're having these? hallucinogenic experiences?

00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:52.440
Like what are the chemicals that are causing

00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.100
it? Do we know? We do. Yeah. And so we've done

00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:56.879
some of these studies where we put people into

00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:59.639
brain scanners, we let them fall asleep, and

00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:01.960
then we see what happens within the brain, which

00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:03.820
parts of the brain are switching on, which parts

00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:06.519
of the brain are switching off. When you go into

00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.059
REM sleep, firstly, some parts of your brain

00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:12.679
become 30 % more active than when you're awake.

00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.460
So, you know, we think of sleep as this sort

00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:19.419
of, you know, static passive state where everything

00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:21.860
just kind of drops down in terms of activity.

00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:25.600
It's quite the contrary. But what's also interesting

00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:28.019
is that not all parts of the brain ramp up when

00:13:28.019 --> 00:13:30.820
you go into REM sleep. Visual parts of the brain

00:13:30.820 --> 00:13:33.100
increase, motor parts of the brain increase,

00:13:33.299 --> 00:13:35.559
emotional centers and memory centers, they all

00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:38.490
increase. But the part of the brain that bucks

00:13:38.490 --> 00:13:40.870
the trend and goes in the opposite direction

00:13:40.870 --> 00:13:43.429
is the part of the brain that we call the prefrontal

00:13:43.429 --> 00:13:46.570
cortex, this sort of CEO of the brain that's

00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:49.649
very good at rational, logical thinking. That

00:13:49.649 --> 00:13:53.549
part of the brain gets shut off. So it's almost

00:13:53.549 --> 00:13:57.509
as though the prison guards are gone and everyone

00:13:57.509 --> 00:14:01.309
runs amok because there's no controller in place.

00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:04.110
And so we know sort of from the patterns of brain

00:14:04.110 --> 00:14:07.590
activity why… You become sort of so visual. You

00:14:07.590 --> 00:14:10.590
see things, why you have motor kinesthetic activity,

00:14:10.850 --> 00:14:13.629
why things feel so emotional, but also why things

00:14:13.629 --> 00:14:16.289
seem utterly illogical and irrational. Because

00:14:16.289 --> 00:14:18.649
your frontal brain, the thing that makes us most

00:14:18.649 --> 00:14:21.590
human, you can say goodbye to that for the rest

00:14:21.590 --> 00:14:24.250
of dream sleep. So there's no driver. So there's

00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:28.509
no driver. Yeah. Now, why do we forget? Why do

00:14:28.509 --> 00:14:31.129
we forget those dreams? Because I wake up and

00:14:31.129 --> 00:14:33.330
I am sure that I'm going to remember these dreams.

00:14:33.470 --> 00:14:36.350
And sometimes I do. Sometimes I remember, and

00:14:36.350 --> 00:14:38.970
I don't think I really remember them. I think

00:14:38.970 --> 00:14:42.690
what it is is very much like, you ever hear someone

00:14:42.690 --> 00:14:46.230
talk about a memory from a long time ago? I used

00:14:46.230 --> 00:14:49.110
to think that people actually remembered things

00:14:49.110 --> 00:14:51.570
from a long time ago. But now what I think is

00:14:51.570 --> 00:14:54.830
they remember remembering it. I think they remember

00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:57.610
talking about it. They remember how they described

00:14:57.610 --> 00:15:01.309
it. And then they sort of remember that and repeat

00:15:01.309 --> 00:15:03.789
it and in their mind convince themselves that

00:15:03.789 --> 00:15:06.049
that's what happened. Because I've heard people

00:15:06.049 --> 00:15:10.929
tell stories about the past and they vary wildly

00:15:10.929 --> 00:15:15.940
from what is absolutely true. like factual you

00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:18.240
could check it you could research it you know

00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:20.960
what the facts are but in their mind it's very

00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.799
different and I think that it's entirely possible

00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.480
that what people are doing is remembering the

00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.960
recollection of these memories and how they told

00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:33.000
them and then also sort of people elaborate things

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.100
and make themselves look better or make the situation

00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:39.460
look more dramatic but with dreams That doesn't

00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:42.299
make any sense. So I'm always trying to figure

00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:44.659
out what is it about a dream where sometimes

00:15:44.659 --> 00:15:48.919
I can remember the dream. And sometimes it's

00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:51.379
so vivid when I wake up. I'm like, holy shit,

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.899
that was crazy. What a dream. And then I forget

00:15:53.899 --> 00:15:56.620
it 20 minutes later. Right. What is that? So

00:15:56.620 --> 00:15:59.139
firstly, I mean, one theory of dreaming is that

00:15:59.139 --> 00:16:02.340
it's just simply a reconstruction when you wake

00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:04.019
up. So you have these fragments of activity.

00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:06.460
And what your cortex does when it wakes up is

00:16:06.460 --> 00:16:08.159
what your cortex is designed to do when you're

00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.440
awake normally, which is try to package everything

00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:13.179
and make a good story, make logical fit out of

00:16:13.179 --> 00:16:16.639
the world. That's one theory. I don't believe

00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:19.879
that, though. Your point is a really interesting

00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:24.580
one. Do I remember my dreams? that doesn't necessarily

00:16:24.580 --> 00:16:27.980
mean I forget my dreams. And what I mean by that

00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:31.919
is... accessibility versus availability. So if

00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.159
you haven't had that experience where you've

00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.039
woken up, you thought, I was definitely dreaming.

00:16:36.139 --> 00:16:38.480
I can't quite grab it, you know, it just, and

00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.799
it's gone. And then two days later, you're in

00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:42.919
the shower, you sort of washing yourself, you

00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.139
see a bottle of shampoo, you see the label, and

00:16:45.139 --> 00:16:48.100
it just triggers the unlocking of that dream

00:16:48.100 --> 00:16:50.720
memory. And it sort of comes flooding back or

00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.279
someone says something to you and you think,

00:16:52.299 --> 00:16:55.059
oh, that was the dream. What that tells me as

00:16:55.059 --> 00:16:58.440
a brain scientist is that the memory is there.

00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:02.240
It's preserved. It's available. But what happens

00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:04.819
most of the time when we wake up is that we lose

00:17:04.819 --> 00:17:07.920
the IP address to the memory. So it's present,

00:17:08.059 --> 00:17:11.019
but it's not consciously accessible. Available,

00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.859
not accessible. If that's true, what it means

00:17:14.859 --> 00:17:17.380
is that this type of information we know can

00:17:17.380 --> 00:17:20.480
have non -conscious impacts on our behavior all

00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:22.970
the time. It's great. brain science about this

00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:26.329
non -conscious memory processing. It's possible

00:17:26.329 --> 00:17:29.690
that we store every one of our dreams. We just

00:17:29.690 --> 00:17:33.630
don't consciously have accessibility to it. But

00:17:33.630 --> 00:17:36.210
nevertheless, it's changing how we behave, how

00:17:36.210 --> 00:17:39.529
we feel each and every day. No evidence for it.

00:17:39.549 --> 00:17:42.390
It's a theory I'm still wanting to test, but

00:17:42.390 --> 00:17:44.509
that's possible too. And it's only that anecdote

00:17:44.509 --> 00:17:46.890
where I can think, I just don't remember the

00:17:46.890 --> 00:17:49.299
dream. I've forgotten it. I don't think that

00:17:49.299 --> 00:17:51.940
may be true. It may still be there. I just need

00:17:51.940 --> 00:17:54.599
to find the keys to sort of access that memory.

00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:56.779
What's stunning to me is how quickly the dream

00:17:56.779 --> 00:18:00.480
evaporates, the memory of the dream, in relation

00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.319
to an actual experience. Like if we went outside

00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:08.000
and we saw some lady walk up to some guy and

00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:10.299
kick him in the balls, we'd be like, whoa! We

00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:12.839
would remember that. And you'd be able to tell

00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:14.839
your friends, like, yeah, some lady just randomly

00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:16.599
walked up to some guy and kicked him in the balls.

00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.059
Like, we would remember that. And you would remember

00:18:19.059 --> 00:18:21.220
it 10 minutes later. You'd remember it an hour.

00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:23.980
You'd remember it next day. You'd be telling

00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:25.539
your friends, yeah, she just walked right up

00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:27.019
to him. I remember it like it was yesterday.

00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.440
Because it was, right? Yeah. But a dream can

00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.849
be 10 minutes ago. And you wake up and dude,

00:18:33.029 --> 00:18:35.849
it was King Kong and he was swinging from my

00:18:35.849 --> 00:18:38.549
ceiling and somehow or another he fit in the

00:18:38.549 --> 00:18:40.809
room but the room got bigger and you have these

00:18:40.809 --> 00:18:44.049
crazy dreams and then 20 minutes later you forget

00:18:44.049 --> 00:18:47.809
all of it. Like what is happening there? So one...

00:18:48.329 --> 00:18:50.910
One current explanation is that the chemistry

00:18:50.910 --> 00:18:53.309
of the brain when you go into dream sleep is

00:18:53.309 --> 00:18:56.230
radically different. So one of the chemicals

00:18:56.230 --> 00:18:58.769
called noradrenaline in the brain, which downstairs

00:18:58.769 --> 00:19:01.049
in the body, its sister chemical is called adrenaline.

00:19:02.670 --> 00:19:05.049
Noradrenaline actually plummets to the lowest

00:19:05.049 --> 00:19:07.349
levels. It's actually a stress chemical in the

00:19:07.349 --> 00:19:09.690
brain or to one of them that gets shut off during

00:19:09.690 --> 00:19:12.369
dream sleep, which is even if you're panicking.

00:19:12.369 --> 00:19:14.710
Like what if you fall off a building? Well, what's

00:19:14.710 --> 00:19:17.470
interesting is that. That chemical is low whilst

00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:19.970
you're having that dream. But when you wake up

00:19:19.970 --> 00:19:22.990
from those, and some people often wake up, that's

00:19:22.990 --> 00:19:24.910
when you have the spike of noradrenaline. So

00:19:24.910 --> 00:19:28.519
it's still low when you're in dream sleep. But

00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:30.460
there's another chemical that goes in the opposite

00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:33.160
direction. It's called acetylcholine. It's the

00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.200
chemical that is actually altered in Alzheimer's

00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:39.359
disease. And these two chemicals will change

00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:43.299
essentially the input -output direction of information

00:19:43.299 --> 00:19:46.359
flow into the memory centers of the brain. That

00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:48.720
makes sense because people take that as a nootropic.

00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.119
They do. Yeah, that's actually an alpha brain.

00:19:51.940 --> 00:19:55.619
When you take that, it's been clinically proven

00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:58.539
to enhance memory, especially verbal memory and

00:19:58.539 --> 00:20:00.720
recollection of words and things like that. That's

00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.440
right. So that's happening while you're sleeping.

00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.750
Whilst you're in REM sleep, yeah. But what may

00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:08.750
be happening, our current models, if you sort

00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:10.569
of build these neural models to sort of mimic

00:20:10.569 --> 00:20:13.569
dreaming, it may be that during dreaming, it's

00:20:13.569 --> 00:20:16.109
principally about the outflow of information

00:20:16.109 --> 00:20:19.130
to generate dreams. And in fact, the chemical

00:20:19.130 --> 00:20:22.890
profile is oppositional to input, which is about

00:20:22.890 --> 00:20:25.990
saving. So it's about sort of pumping out information

00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:29.069
rather than committing information. And so when

00:20:29.069 --> 00:20:30.849
you come out of a dream sleep, you still get

00:20:30.849 --> 00:20:34.170
this sort of lingering after sort of taste of.

00:20:34.430 --> 00:20:37.150
chemistry, as it were, in the brain, that means

00:20:37.150 --> 00:20:39.890
that the dreaming brain is more programmed to

00:20:39.890 --> 00:20:42.950
be outputting a narrative and an experience rather

00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:46.089
than actually committing it to memory, which

00:20:46.089 --> 00:20:47.690
is the opposite direction, if that makes sense.

00:20:47.809 --> 00:20:51.589
It does make sense. How aware are you of dimethyltryptamine?

00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.240
I'm somewhat aware of it scientifically, not

00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:59.059
personally. Experientially? Yeah. One of the

00:20:59.059 --> 00:21:02.039
things about psychedelic experiences with dimethyltryptamine,

00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.680
first of all, it's endogenous. Your brain produces

00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.900
it, your lungs, your liver produce it. But when

00:21:07.900 --> 00:21:12.539
you have a DMT experience, after it's over, the

00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:16.200
memory fades very rapidly. And it seems just

00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:18.509
like a dream. in that regard, where while you're

00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:20.809
having it, what's bizarre is that you're having

00:21:20.809 --> 00:21:24.490
it while you're awake. And then after you have

00:21:24.490 --> 00:21:27.690
it, within 10, 20 minutes, it is just like a

00:21:27.690 --> 00:21:30.349
dream that you can't remember. I remember little

00:21:30.349 --> 00:21:34.170
flashes of experiences that I've had. And there's

00:21:34.170 --> 00:21:35.970
been a lot of speculation that that's one of

00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:38.109
the things that you're experiencing while you're

00:21:38.109 --> 00:21:40.450
in heavy REM sleep, and that could be responsible

00:21:40.450 --> 00:21:43.049
for the crazy visuals that you have that seem

00:21:43.049 --> 00:21:46.250
so vivid. I mean, there's been times where I've

00:21:46.250 --> 00:21:49.099
had... had dreams where I was a hundred percent

00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:52.000
convinced that I was awake. Yeah. And then something

00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.599
happened. Like, uh, I, I do this thing sometimes

00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.640
where I'll, and if I do it consciously a lot,

00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:00.480
I think I saw in one of those wacky movies, like,

00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.599
uh, what the bleep do me know? I think I saw

00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:05.740
it in that where you walk up to a door as you're

00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:08.460
walking through the door, you knock on the side

00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:11.500
of the door and go, am I awake? Nope, not awake.

00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:14.160
Or am I asleep rather? Yeah. No, I'm not asleep

00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.420
because I'm knocking on the door. Well, I did

00:22:16.420 --> 00:22:18.019
that and my hand was just like going right through

00:22:18.019 --> 00:22:21.500
the wall. And I went, oh, I'm sleeping. And then

00:22:21.500 --> 00:22:25.440
I woke up and I was like, but. The feeling that

00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.900
I had while I was in that dream, it was so vivid.

00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:32.480
I mean, everything seems so real. Like, what

00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.839
could possibly be causing me to construct this

00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.079
artificial reality in my mind that, at the moment

00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.900
at least, was indistinguishable? from the reality

00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:44.500
that I experience right now. And I'm assuming

00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:45.940
because I just knocked on this table that I'm

00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:50.660
awake. Yeah, I really hope I'm not just a fictive

00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:52.700
character in your dreamscape. Maybe we're sharing

00:22:52.700 --> 00:22:55.099
a dream. Yeah, very Inception -like. Is that

00:22:55.099 --> 00:22:59.579
possible? Not based on the science so far. But

00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.500
I think, you know, what you're speaking about

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:05.900
there really is almost why would Mother Nature

00:23:05.900 --> 00:23:09.039
create this thing? called the dream experience.

00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:12.680
What would be the function of essentially every

00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:16.140
night going into what sums up to be about two

00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:20.220
total hours of virtual reality experience and

00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:24.200
testing? One possibility, which is deeply unsatisfying,

00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:27.559
is that it's just a byproduct. It's just epiphenomenal

00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.119
that when your brain goes into this thing called

00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:32.400
REM sleep and all of the different patterns of

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.400
brain activity that we described. An offshoot

00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:38.640
is this thing that we call dreaming. In the same

00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:40.779
way that a light bulb, the reason that we construct

00:23:40.779 --> 00:23:42.759
the apparatus that's a light bulb is to produce

00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:45.259
light. But when you produce light in that way,

00:23:45.339 --> 00:23:48.279
you also produce heat. It was never the function

00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:50.380
of the light bulb. It's just what happens when

00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:52.859
you produce light in that way. Maybe dreaming

00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:57.079
is just sort of the heat of REM sleep. And REM

00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.099
sleep serves lots of other functions. But that

00:24:00.099 --> 00:24:05.420
doesn't feel to me right though. Why? Well, firstly,

00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:08.019
I think it's probably additionally metabolically

00:24:08.019 --> 00:24:10.759
demanding to have dreams in addition to this

00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:13.319
thing called REM sleep. And whenever Mother Nature

00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.339
burns calories, it's usually for a reason because

00:24:16.339 --> 00:24:19.079
they're so precious. That's a good point. That

00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:23.460
makes sense, too. Yeah. I read some article about

00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:27.640
the lack of REM sleep with marijuana users, and

00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:30.359
it was trying to say, and it made me super skeptical,

00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.809
even as a pot smoker. It was trying to say that

00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:37.150
it's not bad for you because what it's essentially

00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:40.069
doing is bypassing the REM sleep and going directly

00:24:40.069 --> 00:24:43.069
into the deep sleep. And that it's helping you

00:24:43.069 --> 00:24:45.109
in that regard. Does that make sense to you?

00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.539
Doesn't make sense. As a neuroscientist, he says,

00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:52.500
nay, you fucking stoners. I'm so deeply unpopular.

00:24:52.579 --> 00:24:56.019
I'm telling people, don't smoke pot. Stay away

00:24:56.019 --> 00:24:59.039
from alcohol. Apart from a general personality,

00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:01.339
which is dislikable, this doesn't help me. You're

00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:03.079
definitely not dislikable. But I don't think

00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:06.180
you're saying anything wrong. I think marijuana,

00:25:06.579 --> 00:25:09.849
like... most things is best used in moderation.

00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:13.910
And one thing that I got out of the Sober October

00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:18.009
thing wasn't just that it's fascinating to see

00:25:18.009 --> 00:25:21.109
the dreams like just ramp up and get crazy, but

00:25:21.109 --> 00:25:23.910
also that when you take a few days off and then

00:25:23.910 --> 00:25:25.849
smoke a little pot, the pot actually has more

00:25:25.849 --> 00:25:31.710
of an impact. In fact, one of my favorite psychedelic

00:25:31.710 --> 00:25:33.930
authors and lecturers, the late great Terence

00:25:33.930 --> 00:25:38.400
McKenna, his advice was, to not do marijuana

00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.500
for long periods of time and then do as much

00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:45.599
as you could stand and he was a you know a real

00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.240
psychedelic adventure and his thought was to

00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:50.619
really get the benefit out of marijuana it's

00:25:50.619 --> 00:25:54.460
not something that should be used daily and recreationally

00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:56.839
it should be used as a psychedelic sacrament

00:25:57.420 --> 00:25:59.619
Not should be because he actually did smoke pot

00:25:59.619 --> 00:26:03.420
pretty regularly. But his thought was if you

00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.539
really want to get the full impact of it, you

00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.920
shouldn't be accustomed to it. And when you're

00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:10.599
accustomed to it, you build up a tolerance to

00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.680
it and it doesn't have the same impact. It's

00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.640
that thing, I don't know if you've ever been

00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:17.960
around pot smokers, but when someone doesn't

00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:20.019
smoke pot and then they get talked into smoking

00:26:20.019 --> 00:26:22.420
pot with some pot smokers, it's always a terrible

00:26:22.420 --> 00:26:24.559
idea. Because you've got a bunch of people with

00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.480
super high tolerances and some poor person that

00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:30.240
doesn't have any tolerance and they just get

00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:34.480
taken down a tornado rabbit hole journey into

00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:36.359
their childhood. It's like zero to 60 in like

00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:38.619
1 .2 seconds. They're just so paranoid and thinking

00:26:38.619 --> 00:26:40.539
about everything and freaking out and all these

00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:42.359
sensations that they've just never experienced

00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:48.349
before. But the idea that you could bypass REM

00:26:48.349 --> 00:26:51.190
sleep and go straight into the deep sleep, that

00:26:51.190 --> 00:26:53.569
doesn't make any sense to you. No, it doesn't.

00:26:53.569 --> 00:26:55.589
And what we've learned over the past sort of

00:26:55.589 --> 00:26:59.470
30 or 40 years is. All stages of sleep are important.

00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:04.369
When you think about sleep as a state, it makes

00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:08.130
no sense. Firstly, you're vulnerable to predation.

00:27:08.230 --> 00:27:11.170
You're not finding food. You're not finding a

00:27:11.170 --> 00:27:12.930
mate. You're not reproducing. You're not caring

00:27:12.930 --> 00:27:15.390
for your young. On any one of those grounds,

00:27:15.630 --> 00:27:19.029
sleep should be strongly selected against as

00:27:19.029 --> 00:27:22.980
a collective. I mean, it's almost idiotic. If

00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:25.900
sleep does not serve an absolutely vital function,

00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:28.119
it is the biggest mistake that the evolutionary

00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:32.599
process ever made. And that counts for all of

00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:35.660
the stages of sleep too. Again, Mother Nature

00:27:35.660 --> 00:27:37.859
wouldn't waste time putting you into a state

00:27:37.859 --> 00:27:40.259
that wasn't necessary. And what we've discovered

00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:42.500
is that all of those different stages of sleep

00:27:42.500 --> 00:27:45.079
that we spoke about all have unique and separate

00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:48.559
functions. So you can't shortchange any one of

00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.559
them. You don't need to bias towards one and

00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:53.759
try and sort of, you know, placate the other.

00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:57.680
You know, evolution has taken a long time to

00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.779
get the blueprint accurately correct for each

00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:03.779
physiological individual. I wouldn't. play around

00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:05.519
with it and think that you're smarter than that

00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.559
process right i when i read it i felt like it

00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:10.359
was a justification for smoking a lot of pot

00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:13.220
like man you're just getting deeper sleep man

00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:15.519
you don't need that REM sleep you're passing

00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.400
it up man you just go right into the deep heavy

00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.180
necessary sleep au contraire au contraire potheads

00:28:22.180 --> 00:28:26.940
um so what is happening to the body during REM

00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:29.519
sleep that's so critical that one particular

00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:34.490
aspect of sleep so firstly In the body, your

00:28:34.490 --> 00:28:37.829
cardiovascular system seems to do something quite

00:28:37.829 --> 00:28:40.329
strange. It goes through periods of dramatic

00:28:40.329 --> 00:28:43.329
acceleration and then dramatic deceleration.

00:28:43.710 --> 00:28:45.970
During REM sleep. Yeah, during REM sleep. Quite

00:28:45.970 --> 00:28:49.710
unpredictable, too. We also know that during

00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:53.670
REM sleep, your brain paralyzes your body so

00:28:53.670 --> 00:28:57.589
that your mind can dream safely. Wow. I mean,

00:28:57.609 --> 00:29:00.289
and that makes a lot of sense if you're thinking

00:29:00.289 --> 00:29:03.250
that you're, you know, this. world champion mixed

00:29:03.250 --> 00:29:06.230
martial arts person, and it's in the middle of

00:29:06.230 --> 00:29:08.809
the night. It's dark. You can't see. You're not

00:29:08.809 --> 00:29:10.710
perceiving your outside world. You're going to

00:29:10.710 --> 00:29:12.690
get popped out of the gene pool very quickly

00:29:12.690 --> 00:29:15.890
if you start acting out that experience. So there

00:29:15.890 --> 00:29:18.750
is a barrier in place that Mother Nature locks

00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:21.250
you down in incarceration, muscle incarceration.

00:29:22.130 --> 00:29:24.670
That's crazy that you say that because when I

00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:27.329
was fighting when I was young, I would wake up

00:29:27.329 --> 00:29:30.269
throwing kicks. I would kick in the middle of

00:29:30.269 --> 00:29:32.680
the night. I would do it all the time. I'd be

00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:36.119
sleeping and I would move and throw a kick in

00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.259
the middle of the night. And I remember it waking

00:29:38.259 --> 00:29:40.740
me up like, what the fuck is wrong with me? And

00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:43.000
then I'd try to go back to sleep again. But I

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:47.660
was obviously dreaming. about competing. Do you

00:29:47.660 --> 00:29:49.720
actually remember this? So when you woke up,

00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:52.220
did you remember dreaming at that point? Or did

00:29:52.220 --> 00:29:54.240
you just have no recollection of anything going

00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.599
on at that point? I believe I had a recollection.

00:29:57.619 --> 00:30:00.099
It's been a long time, but I believe I had a

00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:03.319
recollection. Like I would be like in bed with

00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:05.819
my girlfriend, I'd wake her up to, you know,

00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:08.720
just don't like I wouldn't throw a full kick,

00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:11.519
but my body would move like I was going to, you

00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:13.339
know, like I would turn my hips and my leg would

00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:17.940
extend it was my body was I attribute it to the

00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:20.960
idea that it's so extreme, like the activity

00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:26.140
of fighting is so extreme that my brain had kind

00:30:26.140 --> 00:30:30.259
of like hypercharged itself to compete at this

00:30:30.259 --> 00:30:33.779
very high level, you know, and that this was

00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:38.680
like so unusual. That it was almost at red alert

00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:41.059
all the time and maybe even trying to work out

00:30:41.059 --> 00:30:44.160
patterns while I was sleeping. That's exactly

00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:46.839
the evidence that we have now. So for things

00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:49.579
like motor skills or even rats running around

00:30:49.579 --> 00:30:51.940
a maze where they will learn specific sort of

00:30:51.940 --> 00:30:55.880
navigational pathways and even skilled motor

00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:58.519
movements. What you can do is you can place these

00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:03.220
electrodes into centers of the brain. My sleep

00:31:03.220 --> 00:31:05.609
center works on humans. Other people have done

00:31:05.609 --> 00:31:08.430
these studies in rats. And you implant electrodes

00:31:08.430 --> 00:31:11.230
and you measure the brain cells firing as the

00:31:11.230 --> 00:31:13.589
rat is running around the maze. And let's say

00:31:13.589 --> 00:31:15.509
that you can sort of play little tones for each

00:31:15.509 --> 00:31:17.490
brain cell. So they're running around the maze

00:31:17.490 --> 00:31:19.710
and you can listen to the brain cells learning

00:31:19.710 --> 00:31:23.910
the signature of that maze. So it goes... What

00:31:23.910 --> 00:31:27.869
was amazing is that when you let those rats sleep

00:31:27.869 --> 00:31:30.450
but you keep listening to the brain, what you

00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:35.509
hear is... As if the brain is actually, and in

00:31:35.509 --> 00:31:39.690
fact it is, it's replaying the exact same sequence,

00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:42.069
the memory sequence that it was learning whilst

00:31:42.069 --> 00:31:44.690
it was awake. It's replaying, but at a speed

00:31:44.690 --> 00:31:49.569
that is 20 times faster. So, you know, now we

00:31:49.569 --> 00:31:51.069
start to get into this inception world, and I

00:31:51.069 --> 00:31:53.369
don't mean to because the scientific data, we're

00:31:53.369 --> 00:31:55.859
not sort of in that territory. You know, that

00:31:55.859 --> 00:31:59.599
notion of time compression and time dilation

00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.220
that Christopher Nolan played so well with in

00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:05.059
that movie, we can see that at the level of brain

00:32:05.059 --> 00:32:06.880
cell firing in rats as they're learning these

00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:08.720
mazes. And it comes back to what you're saying,

00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:12.250
which is that. The better that they rehearse

00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:15.269
those skilled memories, when you wake them up

00:32:15.269 --> 00:32:18.190
and test them the next day, that predicts how

00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:20.910
much better they are in terms of their performance.

00:32:21.369 --> 00:32:24.029
So it's not just that you learn, you go to sleep

00:32:24.029 --> 00:32:26.069
and you replay and you hit the save button on

00:32:26.069 --> 00:32:29.230
these new memories. You actually sculpt out those

00:32:29.230 --> 00:32:31.829
memories and you improve them. And we've done

00:32:31.829 --> 00:32:34.069
studies with motor skill learning, critical for

00:32:34.069 --> 00:32:37.990
athletic performance. And practice does not make

00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:41.230
perfect. Practice with a night of sleep is what

00:32:41.230 --> 00:32:43.049
makes perfect because you come back the next

00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:46.410
day and you're 20 to 30 percent better in terms

00:32:46.410 --> 00:32:48.769
of your skilled performance than where you were

00:32:48.769 --> 00:32:51.509
at the end of your practice session the day before.

00:32:51.970 --> 00:32:56.690
Wow. Wow. I mean, sleep is the greatest legal

00:32:56.690 --> 00:32:59.569
performance enhancing drug that most people are

00:32:59.569 --> 00:33:02.859
probably neglecting in sport. Wow. And not just

00:33:02.859 --> 00:33:05.099
for your physical performance, but actually skill

00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:07.519
learning. That's right. Skill learning, memory,

00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:10.339
and then also downstairs in the body, all of

00:33:10.339 --> 00:33:13.160
the recuperative benefits. And you can flip the

00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.339
coin, by the way. If you're getting six hours

00:33:15.339 --> 00:33:18.900
of sleep or less, your time to physical exhaustion

00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:23.660
drops by up to 30%. So you could spend all of

00:33:23.660 --> 00:33:27.180
your time training for a 10 -round fight. Perfect

00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:29.220
condition, but then I put you on six hours of

00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:31.119
sleep the night before. You're now going to be

00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:33.240
physically exhausted by round seven rather than

00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:36.099
round ten. Wow. But, well, that's a really hard

00:33:36.099 --> 00:33:37.940
thing for fighters because they have a very difficult

00:33:37.940 --> 00:33:40.259
time sleeping the night before a big fight. Yeah.

00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:42.339
It's very, very difficult because there's anxiety.

00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:49.220
And I would imagine it's got to be, I mean, it's

00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:50.940
probably going to take a huge toll. I mean, it's

00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:53.559
probably a huge benefit if they can somehow or

00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:57.180
another. bypass all that and just relax and learn

00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:58.940
how to relax and learn how to actually sleep

00:33:58.940 --> 00:34:01.960
I mean it's I think you know it's one of We're

00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:04.319
constantly trying to hack the physiological system,

00:34:04.380 --> 00:34:07.119
especially in elite sports these days, because,

00:34:07.180 --> 00:34:09.300
you know, small fractions of a percent of gain

00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:10.920
can make a huge difference. Well, that sounds

00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:13.780
like 30%. That's a monster. Huge. Yeah. I mean,

00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:16.019
your time to sort of not just physical exhaustion,

00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:18.480
but, you know, the lactic acid builds up quicker,

00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:20.900
the less and less that you sleep. Your ability

00:34:20.900 --> 00:34:24.059
of the lungs to actually expire carbon dioxide

00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:27.719
and inhale oxygen decreases the less sleep that

00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:30.380
you have. That makes so much sense. Well, because

00:34:30.380 --> 00:34:33.099
when I was doing, I was doing Fear Factor and

00:34:33.099 --> 00:34:34.739
I was doing stand -up comedy and then I was also

00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:36.579
doing another television show and I was doing

00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:39.719
jujitsu. I never got eight hours sleep. I mostly

00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.300
got four. Usually I got four. And my cardio always

00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:44.800
sucked. Yeah. It was always terrible. And I'd

00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:46.300
be like, why does my cardio suck? I work out

00:34:46.300 --> 00:34:48.780
so much. Like, that was probably what it was.

00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:51.800
Yeah. It's a huge part of that. Wow. Now, how

00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:53.940
many hours of sleep should you get? Somewhere

00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:56.920
between. excuse me, somewhere between seven to

00:34:56.920 --> 00:35:00.300
nine hours. Once you get below seven hours of

00:35:00.300 --> 00:35:02.900
sleep, we can measure objective impairments in

00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:05.820
your brain and your body. I can show that in

00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:08.719
the last two days. And I can show it because

00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:10.659
I basically did the same workout two days in

00:35:10.659 --> 00:35:13.940
a row. The day before, I had flown back from

00:35:13.940 --> 00:35:18.239
Boston, very tired. Hanging out with my kids

00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.539
all day. Went to get some sleep. But then I had

00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:24.179
to do some stuff at like 2 o 'clock in the morning.

00:35:24.460 --> 00:35:28.039
And I just never really got good sleep. And then

00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:30.800
my youngest daughter got up at 5. She was crying.

00:35:31.019 --> 00:35:34.920
And then eventually my alarm went off at 8. So

00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:37.639
my sleep was like three, four hours. It was all

00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:39.539
screwy. And the night before it was even less

00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:41.800
because I had flown and I had to get up early

00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:43.460
for the flight and I tried to sleep on the plane

00:35:43.460 --> 00:35:45.659
and I went running and I felt like dog shit.

00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:47.820
And then during the day I felt like dog shit.

00:35:47.900 --> 00:35:49.800
I just didn't have, like as I was running, I

00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:52.500
just didn't have any extra gear. I was like,

00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:55.639
ugh. I did it. I pushed through it. But then

00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:57.920
it was over. I was like, ugh. Well, last night,

00:35:57.980 --> 00:36:00.920
last night I slept seven and a half hours. Woke

00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:04.610
up today, lifted weights, ran, ran. I felt great.

00:36:04.710 --> 00:36:07.630
I feel great now. Like two days in difference.

00:36:07.849 --> 00:36:09.070
I mean, that's the difference. The difference

00:36:09.070 --> 00:36:11.789
is one day I got real sleep. One day I didn't.

00:36:11.789 --> 00:36:14.670
I did the exact same thing even more today. I

00:36:14.670 --> 00:36:16.869
lifted weights today as well, and I just feel

00:36:16.869 --> 00:36:20.309
great. So I could see it physiologically in the

00:36:20.309 --> 00:36:23.429
difference in my performance in 24 hours. Yeah,

00:36:23.449 --> 00:36:25.650
and that's noticeable. I mean, we see that too.

00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.219
peak muscle strength, your physical vertical

00:36:31.219 --> 00:36:34.500
jump height, and your peak running speed, all

00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:36.800
of those things correlate with sleep. The less

00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.860
that you have, the worse those outcomes are.

00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:41.500
Probably one of the most surprising factors there

00:36:41.500 --> 00:36:43.780
was injury risk when they've looked at athletes

00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:46.280
across a season and they've just plotted, you

00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:48.679
know, how frequently will they get injured? And

00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:50.519
then they surveyed them, you know, how much sleep

00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:52.639
were you getting? And they bucketed them into

00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:54.260
sort of people who are getting nine hours, seven

00:36:54.260 --> 00:36:57.250
hours, six, five, four. And it's a perfect linear

00:36:57.250 --> 00:37:00.130
relationship. The less sleep that you have, higher

00:37:00.130 --> 00:37:03.010
your injury risk. So people getting nine hours

00:37:03.010 --> 00:37:06.389
versus five hours, there was almost a 60 % increase

00:37:06.389 --> 00:37:09.809
in probability of injury risk during a season.

00:37:09.969 --> 00:37:13.070
Do you attribute that to exhaustion or do you

00:37:13.070 --> 00:37:15.389
attribute that to a lack of recovery from the

00:37:15.389 --> 00:37:17.630
previous night's workout? Is it a combination

00:37:17.630 --> 00:37:20.349
of those things? Is it exhaustion causing you

00:37:20.349 --> 00:37:23.250
to misstep perhaps and like twist an ankle or

00:37:23.250 --> 00:37:25.880
turn a knee? Yeah, it's all of those things.

00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:28.800
Even if you look at microbalance, if you look

00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.139
at sort of these stability muscles versus, you

00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:33.260
know, major muscles, those stability muscles

00:37:33.260 --> 00:37:35.900
also fail when you're not getting sufficient

00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:38.480
sleep. And I think we often underestimate how

00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.159
critical they are in sport performance, particularly

00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:44.780
in terms of combating and placating injury risk

00:37:44.780 --> 00:37:46.760
too. So if you just get someone on a stability

00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:50.090
ball, you know. sort of just dose them down with

00:37:50.090 --> 00:37:52.730
sleep eight hours five hours you know three hours

00:37:52.730 --> 00:37:55.429
and just notice how those stability muscles help

00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:58.590
you balance just the basic act of balance that

00:37:58.590 --> 00:38:00.969
deteriorates dramatically no wonder you're getting

00:38:00.969 --> 00:38:04.119
more injury risk totally makes sense now As a

00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:07.480
neuroscientist, what do you attribute when people

00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:11.440
talk about visualization? And visualization is

00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:16.119
a huge factor in improving technical skills,

00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:20.539
specifically martial arts, which I'm a big fan

00:38:20.539 --> 00:38:24.559
of, obviously. Martial arts, when you visualize,

00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:29.219
people who visualize. who sit down and go over

00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:31.860
their body, going through the motions and doing

00:38:31.860 --> 00:38:35.119
things, those people perform better. They perform

00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:40.510
better. They learn quicker. What do you attribute

00:38:40.510 --> 00:38:42.869
that to? Do you think it's the same thing as

00:38:42.869 --> 00:38:44.650
what's happening when you're sleeping, just maybe

00:38:44.650 --> 00:39:12.570
to a lesser extent? It's about 50 % as effective

00:39:12.570 --> 00:39:15.769
as physically performing it, too. And it's 50

00:39:15.769 --> 00:39:18.489
% as effective, what I mean there is, in changing

00:39:18.489 --> 00:39:21.829
the plastic connections within the brain. So

00:39:21.829 --> 00:39:25.849
even just visualization, you know, passive play,

00:39:26.050 --> 00:39:29.650
as it were, still can actually cause a rewiring

00:39:29.650 --> 00:39:33.289
of the brain beneficially. Wow. You know, learning

00:39:33.289 --> 00:39:36.230
techniques, specifically martial arts techniques,

00:39:36.469 --> 00:39:40.420
my good friend Eddie Bravo. world -famous jiu

00:39:40.420 --> 00:39:45.159
-jitsu instructor, he's always comparing it to

00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:47.820
tying your shoe. And he said, do you know how

00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:50.619
like when you were a little kid and you're trying

00:39:50.619 --> 00:39:52.559
to figure out how to tie your shoe, it's an extremely

00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.440
difficult thing to do. You're like, how do I

00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:56.340
do this? And you put that down and you do loops.

00:39:56.420 --> 00:39:58.320
Like I'm watching my seven -year -old daughter

00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.389
go through that right now. But now, as a grown

00:40:01.389 --> 00:40:03.510
man, when I tie my shoe, I could just be talking,

00:40:03.610 --> 00:40:05.050
you know, what? Oh, yeah, we're going to go tomorrow.

00:40:05.150 --> 00:40:07.230
And I'll do it. I don't even know what I did.

00:40:07.289 --> 00:40:10.349
If you tried to ask me to explain how I tie my

00:40:10.349 --> 00:40:13.090
shoe, I'd be like, how do I tie my shoe? Like,

00:40:13.090 --> 00:40:14.590
I don't even know how I do it because it just

00:40:14.590 --> 00:40:18.550
I have it in there. It's just and the idea with

00:40:18.550 --> 00:40:22.280
martial arts is you've got to be. All of your

00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.039
techniques have to be automatic. Someone extends

00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:27.340
the arm, you instantly hook it and go into the

00:40:27.340 --> 00:40:32.360
arm bar. You have to have these paths so drilled

00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:34.320
in that you don't even know you're doing them

00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.460
until it's over. Yeah. So automaticity is one

00:40:37.460 --> 00:40:40.139
of the things that sleep actually accomplishes.

00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:42.880
I was talking about those 20 to 30 percent benefits

00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.699
in motor skill performance. So we did some additional

00:40:45.699 --> 00:40:48.559
studies to actually say, well, how does sleep

00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:50.980
do that? You know, where in your skill performance

00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:54.039
does sleep give you the benefit? So you're right.

00:40:54.099 --> 00:40:57.400
Tying a shoelace, you know, even driving a car

00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:00.059
with stick, you know, at first it's just overwhelming.

00:41:00.139 --> 00:41:03.000
It's so difficult. It's clutch. It's gas pedal.

00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:06.719
You know, it's gear. And now it's just second

00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.219
nature. You know, it's shifted from conscious

00:41:09.219 --> 00:41:11.659
to automatic, from conscious to non -conscious.

00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.380
If you look at performance that is conscious

00:41:15.380 --> 00:41:18.199
and not automatic, it's usually very staccato.

00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:21.079
It's this, then it's that, then it's that. It's

00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:23.199
not fluid. If you heard someone trying to sort

00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:25.840
of play piano to begin with, it doesn't sound

00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.900
very fluid. As someone who is a maestro, it just

00:41:29.900 --> 00:41:33.000
flows out of them. So we looked at this with

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.539
motor skill performance, again, sort of like

00:41:34.539 --> 00:41:37.780
keyboard playing, musicianship. And you learn

00:41:37.780 --> 00:41:39.800
and you learn and you get better. And let's say

00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:42.019
that you type a sequence. Let's say 4 -1 -3 -2

00:41:42.019 --> 00:41:44.500
-4. And people learn it, but they have these

00:41:44.500 --> 00:41:46.340
problem points throughout the sequence. They

00:41:46.340 --> 00:41:51.300
go 4 -1 -3 -2 -4, 4 -1 -3 -2 -4, as if it's a

00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:53.800
sticking point. It's the same thing with any

00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:57.530
skilled performance in athletics. And it's the

00:41:57.530 --> 00:42:00.329
brain chunking things up. A very long motor sequence

00:42:00.329 --> 00:42:03.170
gets chunked up into small sort of digestible

00:42:03.170 --> 00:42:05.349
bites. It's a good way to begin learning, but

00:42:05.349 --> 00:42:08.070
it's not a way to create automaticity. At some

00:42:08.070 --> 00:42:10.530
point, what you have to do is stitch all of those

00:42:10.530 --> 00:42:13.269
things together and it just flows. Like a sentence.

00:42:13.489 --> 00:42:16.369
Like a sentence. Yeah. Like a piano piece. Like,

00:42:16.630 --> 00:42:18.929
you know, a sequence of movements. If you've

00:42:18.929 --> 00:42:20.789
got, you know, in martial arts, you've got, you

00:42:20.789 --> 00:42:24.940
know. What we found was that before sleep, you've

00:42:24.940 --> 00:42:27.579
got these big problem points, these gaps in your

00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:30.280
motor skill learning. Sleep does not necessarily

00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.579
improve the places where you're already good.

00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.019
Sleep is intelligent. It goes in, finds that

00:42:36.019 --> 00:42:38.719
problem point, that friction point in your motor

00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:42.510
skill. sort of deficit and it smooths it out

00:42:42.510 --> 00:42:44.469
so you come back the next day and now it's just

00:42:44.469 --> 00:42:46.309
four one three two four four one three two four

00:42:46.309 --> 00:42:49.590
four it's automaticity and it's exactly what

00:42:49.590 --> 00:42:51.329
you're describing you know speak to musicians

00:42:51.329 --> 00:42:54.030
they'll say i was playing i just couldn't get

00:42:54.030 --> 00:42:56.349
that piece the night before and then i came back

00:42:56.349 --> 00:42:58.630
the next day and i sat down and i could just

00:42:58.630 --> 00:43:02.530
play sleep's doing its work i've heard that too

00:43:02.530 --> 00:43:04.809
with problems and that's why people say sleep

00:43:04.809 --> 00:43:07.929
on it yeah Yeah, you've never been told to stay

00:43:07.929 --> 00:43:11.329
awake on a problem. Yeah, it's true, right? I

00:43:11.329 --> 00:43:13.690
mean, sometimes when you're about to go to bed,

00:43:13.849 --> 00:43:16.309
it's almost overwhelming. You just can't concentrate

00:43:16.309 --> 00:43:18.449
on anything else but this problem, whatever it

00:43:18.449 --> 00:43:20.650
is. And then you go to sleep and you wake up

00:43:20.650 --> 00:43:22.710
in the morning like, eh, it's all right. Yeah.

00:43:22.789 --> 00:43:25.070
It's going to be fine. Yeah. I got it. I know

00:43:25.070 --> 00:43:28.460
what to do. And there's lots of anecdotal evidence

00:43:28.460 --> 00:43:32.119
of sleep inspired creativity. And now this shifts

00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:34.920
to one of the benefits of dreaming. In fact,

00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:37.739
it's during dream sleep when we take all of the

00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:39.920
information that we've previously learned and

00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.139
we start to collide it with all of the new information

00:43:43.139 --> 00:43:45.949
that we've learned. I mean, it's a little bit

00:43:45.949 --> 00:43:48.710
like group therapy for memories. Everyone gets

00:43:48.710 --> 00:43:50.829
a name badge and you all get to speak to each

00:43:50.829 --> 00:43:54.449
other. And the brain starts to seek out and test

00:43:54.449 --> 00:43:59.250
novel connections and new associations. So it's

00:43:59.250 --> 00:44:02.030
almost like informational alchemy. And you wake

00:44:02.030 --> 00:44:04.909
up the next morning with a revised mind -wide

00:44:04.909 --> 00:44:08.789
web that is now capable of divining incredible

00:44:08.789 --> 00:44:12.809
solutions to previously impenetrable problems.

00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:17.579
Lots of anecdotes, you know, Dmitry Mendeleev

00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:20.079
came up with a periodic table of elements by

00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.460
way of dream -inspired insight. You know, talk

00:44:22.460 --> 00:44:25.219
about a Herculean task, take all of the elements

00:44:25.219 --> 00:44:27.760
in the known universe and figure out a structure

00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:29.659
as to how they all fit together. Off you go.

00:44:30.099 --> 00:44:32.920
His waking brain could not do it. His sleeping

00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:37.469
brain solved the problem. I mean, Einstein, by

00:44:37.469 --> 00:44:40.849
the way, this is great. Einstein was suggested

00:44:40.849 --> 00:44:43.429
to be a short sleeper. And we don't know if that's

00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:46.730
true. But even if he was, he was a habitual napper

00:44:46.730 --> 00:44:49.090
during the day. I've got some great pictures

00:44:49.090 --> 00:44:53.469
of him on his workbench. And he used sleep ruthlessly

00:44:53.469 --> 00:44:57.750
as a tool for creativity. And he would sit at

00:44:57.750 --> 00:44:59.949
his desk and he would have a sort of pad of paper

00:44:59.949 --> 00:45:05.469
and a pencil. He had a chair with armrests and

00:45:05.469 --> 00:45:07.969
he would pick up two steel ball bearings and

00:45:07.969 --> 00:45:11.110
take a metal saucepan and turn it upside down,

00:45:11.130 --> 00:45:15.289
place it underneath the arm of the chair. put

00:45:15.289 --> 00:45:17.570
the two steel ball bearings in his hand, then

00:45:17.570 --> 00:45:19.510
he would rest back and he would start to fall

00:45:19.510 --> 00:45:22.269
asleep. And so he didn't fall too far into sleep.

00:45:22.349 --> 00:45:24.329
What would happen is at some point, his muscle

00:45:24.329 --> 00:45:26.510
tone would relax. They would release the steel

00:45:26.510 --> 00:45:29.050
ball bearings. They would crash on the saucepan,

00:45:29.070 --> 00:45:31.429
wake him up. And then he would write down all

00:45:31.429 --> 00:45:33.829
of the creative ideas that he was having. Isn't

00:45:33.829 --> 00:45:37.309
that brilliant? So no wonder you're never told

00:45:37.309 --> 00:45:39.190
to sort of stay awake on a problem. And in every

00:45:39.190 --> 00:45:42.230
language that I've inquired about today, French,

00:45:42.389 --> 00:45:45.110
Swahili, that phrase, sleep. Sleeping on a problem

00:45:45.110 --> 00:45:48.550
seems to exist, which must mean that this benefit

00:45:48.550 --> 00:45:51.150
of dream sleep transcends cultural boundaries.

00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:55.510
I should note, I think it's important that the

00:45:55.510 --> 00:45:58.389
French translation is much closer to you sleep

00:45:58.389 --> 00:46:00.650
with a problem. We, the British, you say you

00:46:00.650 --> 00:46:02.570
sleep on a problem. The French, you say you sleep

00:46:02.570 --> 00:46:05.090
with a problem. I think it says so much about

00:46:05.090 --> 00:46:07.599
the romantic difference between the... The British

00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:09.380
and the French, you know? Yeah, the French are

00:46:09.380 --> 00:46:10.960
trying to fuck everything. They're trying to

00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.280
fuck their problems. I'll lose my British passport

00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:16.119
for saying that, but that's okay. He won't. I

00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:19.639
will. But I won't either. It's just a joke. That's

00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:21.760
fascinating that Einstein figured that out too,

00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:25.500
that he literally had like a whole routine and

00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:27.780
that he would drop this ball and hit it, bang,

00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.119
and wake up and start writing. Self -medicating.

00:46:30.940 --> 00:46:32.460
I would love to be in the room watching Einstein

00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:34.539
do that. It must have been fascinating. Oh, sorry.

00:46:34.619 --> 00:46:37.480
I said Einstein. It's Edison. My goodness. I'm

00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.400
an idiot. Edison. Sorry. That changes everything.

00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:43.780
Wasn't Edison a thief, though? Didn't he steal

00:46:43.780 --> 00:46:46.440
everything from Tesla? I think there's an argument

00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:49.119
to be made. But, I mean, he has a lot to answer

00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:50.980
for, by the way, in terms of the way that we're

00:46:50.980 --> 00:46:53.619
sleeping. You know, he was the first person to

00:46:53.619 --> 00:46:56.179
electrify society. Not necessarily create the

00:46:56.179 --> 00:46:59.800
light bulb, but he really, you know, gave, shifted

00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:03.769
us from a... point where now we controlled the

00:47:03.769 --> 00:47:06.630
night in terms of illumination and like we are

00:47:06.630 --> 00:47:09.289
a dark deprived society in this modern era and

00:47:09.289 --> 00:47:11.150
that's one of the things that is keeping us awake

00:47:11.150 --> 00:47:13.550
at night a lack of darkness yeah not just that

00:47:13.550 --> 00:47:15.849
but also our inability to see the stars anymore

00:47:15.849 --> 00:47:18.110
the the light pollution that we have at night

00:47:18.110 --> 00:47:20.989
i think it's i think it's a giant shift in perspective

00:47:20.989 --> 00:47:26.210
like uh have you ever been to a planetarium or

00:47:26.210 --> 00:47:29.289
um an observatory like one of those uh at night

00:47:29.289 --> 00:47:32.289
um there's a Keck Observatory in Hawaii is a

00:47:32.289 --> 00:47:37.260
place I try to go to every year. Really stunning

00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:42.000
because it's very high up. I think the observatory

00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:46.219
is somewhere more than 9 ,000 feet above sea

00:47:46.219 --> 00:47:47.780
level, and then I think you go even further,

00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:49.920
and then they have the telescopes. But you go

00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:51.880
to Visitor Center, and you go to the Visitor

00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:53.719
Center, and they have some telescopes set up.

00:47:53.860 --> 00:47:57.880
But you actually drive through the clouds. So

00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:00.039
as you're driving up this mountain, we were bummed

00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:01.559
out. We're like, oh, it's cloudy. We might not

00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:03.079
be able to see anything. And then you drive through

00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:04.940
the clouds. And then when you get through the

00:48:04.940 --> 00:48:08.000
clouds, you're like, oh. Holy shit. And you feel

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:10.780
like you're on a spaceship flying through space.

00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:13.360
And this is what our ancestors saw every night

00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:15.760
when they went to sleep with a clear sky. They

00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:18.480
saw all the stars. They saw the full Milky Way

00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.940
like this. And the way the Big Island has set

00:48:20.940 --> 00:48:23.420
up, they use diffused lighting all over the island.

00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:27.099
Because of the Keck Observatory. So you don't

00:48:27.099 --> 00:48:29.500
have the same level of light pollution that you

00:48:29.500 --> 00:48:32.000
have when you're in a normal city like Los Angeles,

00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:34.260
which is terrible. I mean, L .A., if you look

00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:36.260
up, you see like one or two stars because everything's

00:48:36.260 --> 00:48:39.880
lit up. It's crazy bright. I think that perspective,

00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:44.119
that's a giant factor in the way human beings

00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:45.460
look at their relationship with the universe.

00:48:46.059 --> 00:48:48.940
But I think that also just the light everywhere,

00:48:49.179 --> 00:48:51.860
constant light everywhere. That's got to be a

00:48:51.860 --> 00:48:54.099
big factor in why people sleep so little, right?

00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:56.059
Yeah, we know it is now. I mean, these studies

00:48:56.059 --> 00:48:58.460
have been done. You know, the first part is the

00:48:58.460 --> 00:49:00.960
external light, which is, you know, street lighting.

00:49:01.179 --> 00:49:03.260
You know, even if you've got curtains that can

00:49:03.260 --> 00:49:05.960
still bleed through. But then when you come into

00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:08.400
the home, you know, the invasion of light into

00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:10.760
the home by way of technology has been a big

00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:12.539
problem. People looking at their phones before

00:49:12.539 --> 00:49:14.320
they go to bed. Well, firstly, yeah. I mean,

00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:16.610
the incandescent light bulb. sort of was the

00:49:16.610 --> 00:49:20.070
start of it. And light bulbs can suppress a hormone

00:49:20.070 --> 00:49:21.969
that's called melatonin. It's the hormone of

00:49:21.969 --> 00:49:24.309
darkness and it tells your brain when it's dark

00:49:24.309 --> 00:49:27.070
and when it's time to sleep. But then you add

00:49:27.070 --> 00:49:30.829
into that screen usage and they've done studies

00:49:30.829 --> 00:49:34.090
where, for example, you know, one hour of iPad

00:49:34.090 --> 00:49:36.630
reading versus just one hour of reading on a

00:49:36.630 --> 00:49:40.059
book, you know, in dim light. That one hour of

00:49:40.059 --> 00:49:43.760
iPad reading firstly delayed the release of this

00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:46.079
critical darkness hormone called melatonin by

00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:48.960
about three hours. So if you read on your iPad

00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.820
for an hour here in California, your melatonin

00:49:51.820 --> 00:49:53.880
peak is not going to arrive. I mean, somewhere

00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.920
in Hawaii time, in fact, it's three hours delayed.

00:49:56.840 --> 00:50:01.599
It's 50 % less in terms of its peak. And furthermore,

00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:04.119
you don't get the same amount of REM sleep. And

00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:05.639
when you wake up the next morning, you don't

00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:07.840
feel as refreshed or restored by your sleep.

00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.860
Those studies have been done too. Wow. What should

00:50:11.860 --> 00:50:15.599
someone do if they have a hard time sleeping?

00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:17.920
Like say if you're a person who has insomnia,

00:50:18.039 --> 00:50:21.079
you have a hard time getting to bed, you have

00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:23.570
a hard time staying asleep. When you wake up,

00:50:23.570 --> 00:50:25.449
you can't go back to bed. Are there strategies?

00:50:26.230 --> 00:50:28.590
There are. I mean, I think for most people, there

00:50:28.590 --> 00:50:31.050
are five things that you can do just out the

00:50:31.050 --> 00:50:33.769
gate to get better sleep. Regularity is probably

00:50:33.769 --> 00:50:36.030
the most important thing I can tell you. Go to

00:50:36.030 --> 00:50:37.969
bed at the same time. Wake up at the same time.

00:50:38.050 --> 00:50:40.550
No matter whether it's the weekend, weekday,

00:50:40.710 --> 00:50:44.139
regularity is key. We've spoken about light.

00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:46.820
For example, when you, in the last hour before

00:50:46.820 --> 00:50:49.079
bed, try to stay away from screens, but also

00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:51.300
just switch off half the lights in the house.

00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:54.800
You'd be surprised at how soporific that is.

00:50:54.940 --> 00:50:57.760
It really starts to sort of make you feel a bit

00:50:57.760 --> 00:50:59.599
more drowsy. They've done some great studies

00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:01.719
where they would take people out, you know, into

00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:04.679
the Rockies. No electric light, no electricity

00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:08.070
whatsoever. And they started to go to bed two

00:51:08.070 --> 00:51:11.110
hours earlier than their acclaimed natural bedtime.

00:51:11.429 --> 00:51:13.070
It wasn't just because they didn't have anything

00:51:13.070 --> 00:51:15.969
necessarily to do. It was that their melatonin

00:51:15.969 --> 00:51:19.769
was rising two hours earlier. So keep it dark.

00:51:20.170 --> 00:51:23.909
The third is probably keep it cool. Your brain

00:51:23.909 --> 00:51:26.150
actually needs to drop its temperature by about

00:51:26.150 --> 00:51:28.750
two to three degrees Fahrenheit to initiate sleep.

00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:32.079
And that's the reason that you will always find

00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:34.119
it easier to fall asleep in a room that's too

00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:37.500
cold than too hot. I've seen people use cold

00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:39.820
pads. Have you seen those? You sleep on these

00:51:39.820 --> 00:51:41.579
cold pads? What do you think of those? Yeah.

00:51:41.619 --> 00:51:44.300
I mean, the evidence is pretty good that cooling

00:51:44.300 --> 00:51:47.760
the body actually works. In the book, I write

00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:50.840
about a series of studies where they had people

00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:53.840
in, it's almost like a wetsuit, but it has all

00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:56.969
of these veins running through it. And they could

00:51:56.969 --> 00:52:00.869
actually perfuse warm or cold water into any

00:52:00.869 --> 00:52:04.210
part of the body, hands, core of the body, feet.

00:52:04.829 --> 00:52:07.590
And so that you could exquisitely manipulate

00:52:07.590 --> 00:52:10.869
the temperature of any part of the body. And

00:52:10.869 --> 00:52:13.230
what they found is that they could effectively

00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:17.210
cool the body down and it instantaneously made

00:52:17.210 --> 00:52:20.250
people fall asleep faster. And it gave them deeper,

00:52:20.329 --> 00:52:22.789
deep non -REM sleep, that sort of restorative

00:52:22.789 --> 00:52:26.409
sleep for the body. And you can even look at

00:52:26.409 --> 00:52:29.849
studies where people sleep semi -naked, and that

00:52:29.849 --> 00:52:32.130
also seems to improve their sleep, and they get

00:52:32.130 --> 00:52:35.630
a little bit more deep sleep too. So cold is

00:52:35.630 --> 00:52:39.480
better. Paradox here, though, is that you need

00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:42.840
to warm your feet and your hands to kind of charm

00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:46.099
the blood away from your core out to the surface

00:52:46.099 --> 00:52:49.199
and radiate that heat. Really? So you should

00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:51.619
go to sleep with socks and gloves on? Yeah. Or

00:52:51.619 --> 00:52:55.000
better still, have a hot bath. Evidence here,

00:52:55.039 --> 00:52:58.300
too, that I discussed where people say, you know,

00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:00.840
I get out of a hot bath, I feel nice and toasty

00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:02.860
and relaxed, and that's why I fall asleep. It's

00:53:02.860 --> 00:53:05.880
the opposite. When you get into a bath, you get

00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:09.360
vasodilation. You sort of get rosy cheeks, red

00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:12.159
skin. All of the blood rushes to the surface.

00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:14.800
You get out of the bath and you have this massive

00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:18.320
thermal dump of heat that just evacuates from

00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.340
the body. Your core body temperature plummets

00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:23.559
and that's why you sleep better. So you can hack

00:53:23.559 --> 00:53:27.280
the system very easily. Wow. So your core body

00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:30.079
temperature plummets and that's what makes you

00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:33.599
sleep easier. Yeah. That sounds so counterintuitive.

00:53:33.820 --> 00:53:36.150
Yeah. But it makes sense. And it makes sense

00:53:36.150 --> 00:53:38.530
because that's how we were designed. If you look

00:53:38.530 --> 00:53:40.610
at hunter -gatherer tribes whose way of life

00:53:40.610 --> 00:53:42.670
has not changed for thousands of years and you

00:53:42.670 --> 00:53:45.590
ask how do they sleep, one of the things that

00:53:45.590 --> 00:53:48.909
seems to dictate... take their sleep is the rise

00:53:48.909 --> 00:53:52.369
and fall of temperature. Temperature is at its

00:53:52.369 --> 00:53:55.030
lowest in the nadir of the night, three or four

00:53:55.030 --> 00:53:57.530
in the morning. And as that temperature, that

00:53:57.530 --> 00:53:59.949
climate temperature starts to drop, that's when

00:53:59.949 --> 00:54:02.510
they start to get drowsy. As if temperature is

00:54:02.510 --> 00:54:05.190
just sort of signaling to the brain, now it's

00:54:05.190 --> 00:54:08.050
time to sleep. So light as well as temperature

00:54:08.050 --> 00:54:11.369
are two key triggers to help you get better sleep.

00:54:12.190 --> 00:54:15.039
If you look at... Those tribes, by the way, and

00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:17.739
when they go to sleep and they wake up, you know,

00:54:17.739 --> 00:54:19.960
they go to sleep probably at two hours after

00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:22.280
dusk, sort of eight to nine in the evening, wake

00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:25.340
up about half an hour, even an hour before dawn.

00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:28.059
It's the rise in temperature rather than light

00:54:28.059 --> 00:54:31.420
that triggers their awakening. But there's a

00:54:31.420 --> 00:54:34.179
reason, you know, have you ever thought about

00:54:34.179 --> 00:54:38.159
what the term midnight actually means? Middle

00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:40.880
of the night. And that's what it should be for

00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:44.619
all of us. But in modernity, we've been dislocated

00:54:44.619 --> 00:54:47.280
from our natural rhythms. And now midnight has

00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:49.219
become the time when we think I should check

00:54:49.219 --> 00:54:51.320
Facebook last time. You know, I should send my

00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:55.000
last email. That wasn't that is not how we were

00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:58.179
designed to sleep. And in fact, we may also be

00:54:58.179 --> 00:55:00.599
designed to sleep by physically, too. If you

00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:02.760
look at those hunter gatherers, they don't sleep

00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:05.159
one long bout of eight hours at night. Yeah,

00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:08.079
I've heard this recently that people that you

00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:10.829
should have two sleeps. The idea of two sleeps.

00:55:11.030 --> 00:55:12.929
Yeah, it's actually a little different than the

00:55:12.929 --> 00:55:16.090
idea of two sleeps. So there was a time in sort

00:55:16.090 --> 00:55:19.250
of the Dickensian era where people would sleep

00:55:19.250 --> 00:55:21.210
for the first half of the night, maybe sort of

00:55:21.210 --> 00:55:23.949
four hours or so. Then they would wake up. They

00:55:23.949 --> 00:55:26.610
would socialize. They would eat. They would make

00:55:26.610 --> 00:55:28.590
love. And then they would go back and have a

00:55:28.590 --> 00:55:32.309
second sleep. If you look at... Natural biological

00:55:32.309 --> 00:55:34.570
rhythms in the brain and the body, that doesn't

00:55:34.570 --> 00:55:37.090
really seem to be how we were designed. It certainly

00:55:37.090 --> 00:55:39.750
seems to be something that we did in society,

00:55:39.989 --> 00:55:43.869
but I think it's more of a societal trend than

00:55:43.869 --> 00:55:48.269
it was a biological edict. However, we do seem

00:55:48.269 --> 00:55:50.650
to have two sleep periods the way that we were

00:55:50.650 --> 00:55:52.949
designed. Those tribes will often sleep about

00:55:52.949 --> 00:55:55.449
six and a half hours, seven hours of sleep at

00:55:55.449 --> 00:55:57.650
night. And then especially in the summer, they'll

00:55:57.650 --> 00:55:59.889
have that siesta -like behavior in the afternoon.

00:56:00.940 --> 00:56:03.880
And all of us have that sort of this what's called

00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:06.980
the postprandial dip in alertness just means

00:56:06.980 --> 00:56:09.980
after lunch. And if I measure your brainwave

00:56:09.980 --> 00:56:13.199
activity with electrodes, I can see a drop in

00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:15.880
your physiological alertness somewhere between

00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:18.679
2 to 4 p .m. in the afternoon. But is that dependent

00:56:18.679 --> 00:56:21.559
on diet? It's not. People think it is, you know,

00:56:21.579 --> 00:56:23.699
especially after they've had a heavy lunch. Yeah.

00:56:23.780 --> 00:56:26.239
You can actually just have people fast and sort

00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:28.920
of, well. Fasting for long periods of time actually

00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:31.599
makes your sleep much worse. But you can have

00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:33.840
people abstain from lunch and you still get that

00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:36.239
drop. So it's independent of food. It's a genetically

00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:39.199
hardwired pre -programmed drop that suggests

00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:41.659
we should be sleeping biphasically. But is that

00:56:41.659 --> 00:56:44.199
dependent upon their standard diet? Because if

00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:48.139
someone is on a carbohydrate -rich diet, a lot

00:56:48.139 --> 00:56:50.659
of times you do get that spike and then you crash.

00:56:51.079 --> 00:56:54.099
But when people are on low -carb and high -fat

00:56:54.099 --> 00:56:57.449
diets, they don't get that. they tend to be more

00:56:57.449 --> 00:56:59.130
even with their energy through the day? Yeah.

00:56:59.210 --> 00:57:01.349
So yeah, that sort of more constant release of

00:57:01.349 --> 00:57:03.730
energy can actually help you sort of almost combat

00:57:03.730 --> 00:57:06.150
that lull. But that lull exists no matter what.

00:57:06.230 --> 00:57:07.969
Exactly. So even if you don't think it exists,

00:57:08.070 --> 00:57:09.610
it's there. It's still present. Interesting.

00:57:09.829 --> 00:57:13.030
So why did they do that in the Dickens era? Why

00:57:13.030 --> 00:57:16.329
did they, what, is there a root cause of their

00:57:16.329 --> 00:57:19.289
double sleep thing? We don't know. I mean, it's

00:57:19.289 --> 00:57:21.050
hard to sort of really go back. Fascinating.

00:57:21.309 --> 00:57:22.989
Yeah, it's incredible. That was a trend. Yeah,

00:57:23.010 --> 00:57:24.610
that it was a movement. That they would just

00:57:24.610 --> 00:57:27.619
wake up and do things and. Yeah. Maybe it's because

00:57:27.619 --> 00:57:29.880
they didn't have TV. They didn't know what to

00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:33.599
do with themselves. Yeah. Sounds like they did

00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:35.119
some pretty interesting things, which were nice.

00:57:35.219 --> 00:57:37.360
Yeah. Well, they created a lot of art then too,

00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:39.360
right? A lot of writing and a lot of fascinating

00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:41.579
stuff came out of that time. Now, when you're

00:57:41.579 --> 00:57:46.980
measuring people's health and when you're measuring

00:57:46.980 --> 00:57:49.280
people's health in regard to how much sleep they

00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:53.940
have, how do you do that? talk to people? Do

00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:57.820
you do surveys? How do you get a detailed analysis

00:57:57.820 --> 00:58:01.320
of people's patterns? So you can do it at many

00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:03.360
different levels. I mean, we can start at the

00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.980
sort of gross high level, which is epidemiological

00:58:05.980 --> 00:58:08.579
studies across millions of people, where you

00:58:08.579 --> 00:58:11.079
do surveys, you ask them about their sleep, and

00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:13.699
then you look at health outcomes. The first thing

00:58:13.699 --> 00:58:16.219
from that data that's clear is an unfortunate

00:58:16.219 --> 00:58:18.619
truth. The shorter your sleep, the shorter your

00:58:18.619 --> 00:58:22.400
life. Whoa. Short sleep predicts all -cause mortality.

00:58:22.659 --> 00:58:25.340
Which is really ironic because people that want

00:58:25.340 --> 00:58:27.639
to sleep less are like, you know, I don't have

00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:30.099
a whole lot of time. You know, this life is short.

00:58:30.380 --> 00:58:32.300
Well, it's fucking shorter if you sleep less.

00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:34.639
Yeah, that old maxim, you know, you can sleep

00:58:34.639 --> 00:58:36.639
when you're dead. Well, it's mortally unwise

00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:39.139
advice because we know from the data you will

00:58:39.139 --> 00:58:41.820
be both dead sooner and the quality of that now

00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:44.539
shorter life will be significantly worse. Yeah,

00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:47.980
that's counterintuitive to people. The idea that

00:58:47.980 --> 00:58:52.159
you need this. It's not just like you're making

00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:54.800
best use of time by sleeping less. You're not.

00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:57.860
You would make best use of time by being awake

00:58:57.860 --> 00:59:01.000
less. Exactly. Which is crazy. I mean, wakefulness,

00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:03.000
firstly, from a brain perspective is low level

00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:05.960
brain damage. We know that. Wakefulnesses? Yeah.

00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:08.400
Like right now, you and I are getting low -level

00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:10.659
brain damage. Yeah, that's right. And it's sleep

00:59:10.659 --> 00:59:13.699
that offers a reparatory function. Wow. And I'll

00:59:13.699 --> 00:59:15.380
give you one example, which is your risk for

00:59:15.380 --> 00:59:17.699
Alzheimer's disease. Insufficient sleep across

00:59:17.699 --> 00:59:19.960
the lifespan now seems to be one of the most

00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:22.219
significant lifestyle factors determining whether

00:59:22.219 --> 00:59:25.079
or not you'll develop Alzheimer's. What studies,

00:59:25.099 --> 00:59:27.079
if any, have been done on people that work the

00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:30.760
third shift? So people have looked at shift work

00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:33.659
in general. They haven't necessarily split it

00:59:33.659 --> 00:59:37.610
down. to that granular point. But what we see

00:59:37.610 --> 00:59:40.030
is that shift workers have higher rates of obesity,

00:59:40.309 --> 00:59:43.650
higher rates of diabetes, but perhaps most frighteningly,

00:59:43.650 --> 00:59:46.889
cancer. And in fact, we now know the link between

00:59:46.889 --> 00:59:50.389
a lack of sleep and cancer is quite strong. Insufficient

00:59:50.389 --> 00:59:52.670
sleep is linked to cancer of the bowel, cancer

00:59:52.670 --> 00:59:55.230
of the prostate, cancer of the breast. And the

00:59:55.230 --> 00:59:57.909
association has become so powerful that recently

00:59:57.909 --> 01:00:00.829
the World Health Organization decided to classify

01:00:00.829 --> 01:00:03.510
any form of nighttime shift work as a probable

01:00:03.510 --> 01:00:07.650
carcinogen. Whoa! Yeah, so jobs that may induce

01:00:07.650 --> 01:00:09.769
cancer because of a disruption of your sleep

01:00:09.769 --> 01:00:12.480
-wake rhythms. Are there other correlating factors?

01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:16.880
Like, don't people that sleep less or work into

01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:19.159
the night, don't they eat more and eat more shitty

01:00:19.159 --> 01:00:21.860
food? They do, both of those things. Yeah. And

01:00:21.860 --> 01:00:24.539
we know exactly the pathways. So there are two

01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:27.480
hormones that control your appetite and your

01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:30.340
weight. One is called leptin. The other is called

01:00:30.340 --> 01:00:33.199
ghrelin. They sound like hobbits, but they're

01:00:33.199 --> 01:00:36.639
not. They're real chemicals. They do sound like

01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:39.460
hobbits. It's bizarre. So leptin is the chemical

01:00:39.460 --> 01:00:44.059
that tells your brain you're full, you're satiated,

01:00:44.059 --> 01:00:47.070
you don't want to eat anymore. ghrelin does the

01:00:47.070 --> 01:00:50.070
opposite it's the hunger hormone it says you

01:00:50.070 --> 01:00:52.349
want to eat more you're not satisfied with your

01:00:52.349 --> 01:00:55.130
food If I take people, and these studies have

01:00:55.130 --> 01:00:56.730
been done, we've done some of these studies too,

01:00:56.869 --> 01:00:59.929
and you just put you a group of healthy people

01:00:59.929 --> 01:01:02.469
on four or five hours of sleep for, let's say,

01:01:02.489 --> 01:01:05.250
one week, and you look at those two hormones,

01:01:05.349 --> 01:01:07.710
they go in unfortunately opposite directions.

01:01:07.929 --> 01:01:10.610
So leptin, that says you're full, stop eating,

01:01:10.750 --> 01:01:13.550
that gets suppressed by a lack of sleep. Ghrelin,

01:01:13.650 --> 01:01:17.420
the hunger hormone, that gets ramped up. So firstly,

01:01:17.539 --> 01:01:20.320
people who are sleeping just five to six hours

01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:22.780
a night will on average eat somewhere between

01:01:22.780 --> 01:01:27.500
200 to 300 extra calories each day because of

01:01:27.500 --> 01:01:30.400
the underslept state. Add that up, it's about

01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:33.119
70 ,000 extra calories a year. It's about 10

01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:36.739
to 15 pounds of obese mass each year, which for

01:01:36.739 --> 01:01:39.880
me is starting to sound familiar. But what we

01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:41.820
also know is that it's not just that when you're

01:01:41.820 --> 01:01:45.130
underslept, you eat more. you eat more of the

01:01:45.130 --> 01:01:49.150
wrong things. So if, and these, the great scientific

01:01:49.150 --> 01:01:51.570
work, if you give people this sort of finger

01:01:51.570 --> 01:01:54.269
buffet and they can eat whatever they want and

01:01:54.269 --> 01:01:56.150
it contains all of the different food groups

01:01:56.150 --> 01:01:58.690
and you sleep deprive them or you give them a

01:01:58.690 --> 01:02:01.369
full eight hours of sleep. Yes, they start to

01:02:01.369 --> 01:02:04.329
overeat by somewhere around about 450 calories

01:02:04.329 --> 01:02:07.210
with total sleep deprivation. But what they go

01:02:07.210 --> 01:02:10.510
after is heavy hitting carbohydrates and simple

01:02:10.510 --> 01:02:14.059
sugars processed food. And they stay away from

01:02:14.059 --> 01:02:17.119
the healthy sort of leafy greens, nuts, proteins,

01:02:17.300 --> 01:02:20.300
etc. So you're not just eating more, you're eating

01:02:20.300 --> 01:02:22.739
more of the wrong things. And that's why a lack

01:02:22.739 --> 01:02:26.119
of sleep has such a strong obesogenic profile

01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:29.519
to it. And you can take a step back too and you

01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:31.840
say, well, if you look at the rise of obesity

01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:34.579
over the past 70 years, it's just this. upward

01:02:34.579 --> 01:02:37.079
exponential increase. And if you plot on the

01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:39.960
same graph, the amount of sleep that society

01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:42.559
is getting, it goes in the opposite direction.

01:02:42.699 --> 01:02:45.320
As sleep time has declined, obesity rates have

01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:48.260
increased. I'm not going to sit here and tell

01:02:48.260 --> 01:02:50.860
you that the obesity epidemic is simply a sleep

01:02:50.860 --> 01:02:53.699
problem. It's not. It's a problem of us being

01:02:53.699 --> 01:02:56.440
sedentary, processed foods, larger food serving

01:02:56.440 --> 01:03:00.539
sizes. If you take those factors though, by themselves,

01:03:00.579 --> 01:03:04.400
they cannot explain the increase in obesity.

01:03:04.519 --> 01:03:07.440
Other things are at play. Is sleep one of them?

01:03:07.539 --> 01:03:09.739
Now we know it is. It's a critical factor in

01:03:09.739 --> 01:03:12.460
the obesogenic epidemic. I know from personal

01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:14.699
experience, when I'm tired, I always gravitate

01:03:14.699 --> 01:03:17.260
towards the worst choices. For me, it's late

01:03:17.260 --> 01:03:19.940
night cheeseburgers. Wendy's at two o 'clock

01:03:19.940 --> 01:03:23.719
in the morning or whatever. What happens if you

01:03:23.719 --> 01:03:26.659
get naps? Say if you only have five hours of

01:03:26.659 --> 01:03:28.920
sleep, but you take a two hour nap during the

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:33.059
day, does everything make up? Yes and no. So

01:03:33.059 --> 01:03:35.260
what you're talking about there is what we call

01:03:35.260 --> 01:03:38.860
prophylactic napping, which is sort of strategically

01:03:38.860 --> 01:03:41.980
trying to help combat your deficiency of sleep.

01:03:42.739 --> 01:03:45.300
Naps can actually give you benefits. We've done

01:03:45.300 --> 01:03:47.179
some of these studies where they improve your

01:03:47.179 --> 01:03:49.920
learning, your memory, your alertness, your concentration,

01:03:50.199 --> 01:03:52.980
especially your emotional regulation too. Sleep

01:03:52.980 --> 01:03:56.179
is critical for emotional first aid and mental

01:03:56.179 --> 01:04:00.679
health. However, you can't keep using naps to

01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:04.099
self -medicate sort of short sleep of four or

01:04:04.099 --> 01:04:08.059
five hours each night. We know that the system

01:04:08.059 --> 01:04:11.800
itself, your brain, has no capacity to regain

01:04:11.800 --> 01:04:14.179
all of the sleep that it's lost. It will try

01:04:14.179 --> 01:04:16.980
to sleep back some of that debt. But what we've

01:04:16.980 --> 01:04:19.260
discovered, let's say I take you tonight, I deprive

01:04:19.260 --> 01:04:21.949
you of sleep. eight hours lost, then I give you

01:04:21.949 --> 01:04:24.250
all of the recovery sleep that you want on a

01:04:24.250 --> 01:04:26.650
second, third or fourth night. You will sleep

01:04:26.650 --> 01:04:29.530
longer, but you will only get back maybe just

01:04:29.530 --> 01:04:33.050
three or four hours of that lost total eight.

01:04:33.650 --> 01:04:36.989
So sleep is not like the bank. You can't accumulate

01:04:36.989 --> 01:04:39.969
a debt and then hope to pay it off at the weekend.

01:04:40.889 --> 01:04:44.460
And so there is no credit system. within the

01:04:44.460 --> 01:04:47.280
brain for sleep. You can't bank it, which is

01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:50.659
odd, by the way. I would love that system. Yeah,

01:04:50.739 --> 01:04:52.800
then you would know what you owed. You would

01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:55.179
know what you owed. But I could also just know

01:04:55.179 --> 01:04:57.480
when I'm going into a state of, you know, sleep

01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:00.239
debt, and I could build up some credit. And there's

01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:03.420
precedent for this, by the way. There is a system

01:05:03.420 --> 01:05:06.139
like that in the brain. It's called the fat cell,

01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:09.000
because there were times during our evolutionary

01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:12.400
past where we faced famine and we faced feast.

01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:16.019
And so the body learned to adapt to that and

01:05:16.019 --> 01:05:18.880
said, when you have feast, store it up as caloric

01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:20.980
energy in these things called adipose cells,

01:05:21.099 --> 01:05:23.099
fat cells. And then when you go into famine,

01:05:23.239 --> 01:05:26.820
you can spend that caloric credit. Where is that

01:05:26.820 --> 01:05:29.079
in the brain? Why don't we have that? The reason

01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:31.840
is very simple. Human beings are the only species

01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:34.079
that deliberately deprive themselves of sleep

01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:39.420
for no apparent reason. Mother Nature has never

01:05:39.420 --> 01:05:42.360
faced the challenge of coming up with a safety

01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:45.500
net for lack of sleep. We've never been forced

01:05:45.500 --> 01:05:47.980
to come up with that solution. That's why we

01:05:47.980 --> 01:05:50.719
get such demonstrable disease, sickness and impairment

01:05:50.719 --> 01:05:53.219
when you undergo a lack of sleep. So this is

01:05:53.219 --> 01:05:55.719
a recent occurrence in human beings. Is that

01:05:55.719 --> 01:05:57.940
what you're saying? Yeah. I mean, the only time

01:05:57.940 --> 01:06:01.489
we see it in nature is when you go into. conditions

01:06:01.489 --> 01:06:04.130
of starvation, the only way that you can get

01:06:04.130 --> 01:06:07.010
a species to sleep less, and it's very, very

01:06:07.010 --> 01:06:09.510
difficult to do because sleep is just so essential,

01:06:09.690 --> 01:06:12.610
is when you put them under conditions of extreme

01:06:12.610 --> 01:06:16.309
starvation. There they will forego some sleep

01:06:16.309 --> 01:06:19.389
to stay awake so that they forage in a larger

01:06:19.389 --> 01:06:22.349
sort of circumference area to try and find more

01:06:22.349 --> 01:06:24.869
food. It's probably the reason that when people

01:06:24.869 --> 01:06:27.570
go into fasting, their sleep... is so terrible

01:06:27.570 --> 01:06:30.949
because the brain is receiving this ancient trigger

01:06:30.949 --> 01:06:33.769
that you're going without food you're in a state

01:06:33.769 --> 01:06:35.530
of starvation you need to stay awake and hunt

01:06:35.530 --> 01:06:37.869
for food that's why your sleep gets so much worse

01:06:37.869 --> 01:06:40.969
when you're when you're undergoing fasting that's

01:06:40.969 --> 01:06:43.809
fascinating i did not know that so fasting is

01:06:43.809 --> 01:06:46.090
when you're talking about multiple day fasting

01:06:46.090 --> 01:06:49.349
and not intermittent fasting um we don't know

01:06:49.349 --> 01:06:51.550
the evidence for intermittent fasting so you

01:06:51.550 --> 01:06:53.150
know if you're some people are doing sort of

01:06:53.150 --> 01:06:58.059
12 hours 14 hours 16 hours That doesn't seem

01:06:58.059 --> 01:07:00.980
to be extreme enough to trigger a change in sleep.

01:07:01.099 --> 01:07:03.820
But if you fast for these long periods, two days,

01:07:03.960 --> 01:07:06.659
three days, four days, you can really see some

01:07:06.659 --> 01:07:09.739
quite marked sleep fragmentation. Ask any of

01:07:09.739 --> 01:07:12.079
those people. They'll tell you. That's fascinating

01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:14.460
because people always cite the health benefits

01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:17.000
of multiple -day fasts. Do you think that that's

01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:20.889
just like a placebo effect? I mean, certainly

01:07:20.889 --> 01:07:23.449
we know that there are chemical pathways that

01:07:23.449 --> 01:07:26.190
when you go into fasting are activated that seem

01:07:26.190 --> 01:07:28.469
to be beneficial for health outcomes. And there's

01:07:28.469 --> 01:07:30.989
a big literature on sort of fasting and aging

01:07:30.989 --> 01:07:35.579
with the mTOR pathway, for example. We also know

01:07:35.579 --> 01:07:37.960
that as a species, we were not designed to have

01:07:37.960 --> 01:07:40.699
such terrible fragmented sleep. And we spoke

01:07:40.699 --> 01:07:44.460
about how sleep regulates your appetite. If you're

01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:47.579
trying not to eat food and sort of control and

01:07:47.579 --> 01:07:50.000
manage your weight, the last thing that you probably

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:52.679
want to do is be shortchanging yourself on sleep

01:07:52.679 --> 01:07:55.400
because it's only going to make you even more

01:07:55.400 --> 01:07:58.480
hungry and reach for sort of worse food. So I

01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:00.980
still think there's room for fasting in the equation,

01:08:01.139 --> 01:08:03.769
but I think those extreme fasts, you know. and

01:08:03.769 --> 01:08:06.050
the havoc that it plays on sleep, it's still

01:08:06.050 --> 01:08:08.250
yet to be understood. You've got to be very careful

01:08:08.250 --> 01:08:10.369
with playing around with anything going beyond

01:08:10.369 --> 01:08:14.570
sensible behavior. So what does it? Say if you're

01:08:14.570 --> 01:08:17.170
going to fast for two days, what switches on

01:08:17.170 --> 01:08:20.970
that forces your body into this haphazard sleep

01:08:20.970 --> 01:08:24.250
program? So that's where that hormone ghrelin

01:08:24.250 --> 01:08:27.090
just kicks into high gear, that hormone that

01:08:27.090 --> 01:08:30.109
is just saying, It's a starvation hormone at

01:08:30.109 --> 01:08:32.210
that point. It's not just a hunger hormone. You've

01:08:32.210 --> 01:08:35.310
gone over into starvation, and that will promote

01:08:35.310 --> 01:08:38.229
alertness. It promotes chemicals that try to

01:08:38.229 --> 01:08:40.069
keep you awake, chemicals like dopamine to sort

01:08:40.069 --> 01:08:42.550
of force you wide awake. So it's forcing you

01:08:42.550 --> 01:08:45.729
to go hunt or gather. That's right, yeah. And

01:08:45.729 --> 01:08:47.750
this is even if your body goes into a state of

01:08:47.750 --> 01:08:51.350
ketosis? That we don't know. People have not

01:08:51.350 --> 01:08:53.350
tried to correlate sort of, you know, the...

01:08:53.560 --> 01:08:56.720
profile change in ketosis versus alterations

01:08:56.720 --> 01:08:58.500
in sleep. I actually think it would be fascinating.

01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:03.220
Maybe there's a peak where it's bad, and then

01:09:03.220 --> 01:09:06.279
you crest it, and then things get better. Does

01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:09.859
the body acclimate to that? I don't know. We've

01:09:09.859 --> 01:09:12.600
never seen the body being able to sort of...

01:09:12.890 --> 01:09:16.649
re -engage with, you know, cognitive function

01:09:16.649 --> 01:09:19.350
with a dose of sleep deprivation that keeps going.

01:09:19.529 --> 01:09:21.670
So if I, and these studies have been done, take

01:09:21.670 --> 01:09:24.210
people and give them two weeks of seven hours

01:09:24.210 --> 01:09:26.449
of sleep, five hours of sleep, three hours of

01:09:26.449 --> 01:09:30.689
sleep, or no sleep, you know, even by sort of

01:09:30.689 --> 01:09:34.649
seven days or even 14 days of six hours of sleep,

01:09:34.789 --> 01:09:37.310
your cognitive performance just nosedives like

01:09:37.310 --> 01:09:40.050
a dart into the ground. And it doesn't show any

01:09:40.050 --> 01:09:43.340
signs of leveling off. As if there is no asymptote

01:09:43.340 --> 01:09:46.579
that it could keep going. And by the way, people

01:09:46.579 --> 01:09:49.079
should know that after 20 hours of being awake,

01:09:49.239 --> 01:09:51.640
you are as impaired cognitively as you would

01:09:51.640 --> 01:09:54.600
be if you were legally drunk. Wow. What about

01:09:54.600 --> 01:09:56.979
physical movement? Same thing. Yeah. In terms

01:09:56.979 --> 01:09:59.479
of your alertness and reaction time. But it's

01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:01.960
worse. And this is where, you know, drowsy driving

01:10:01.960 --> 01:10:04.359
comes in. For every 30 seconds that we've been

01:10:04.359 --> 01:10:07.460
speaking, there has been a car accident linked

01:10:07.460 --> 01:10:10.960
to sleeplessness. Drowsy driving, it seems, kills

01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:13.760
more people on the roads than either alcohol

01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:18.369
or drugs combined. Whoa. Why are drowsy driving

01:10:18.369 --> 01:10:21.810
accidents so deathly? Now, I'm not endorsing

01:10:21.810 --> 01:10:23.869
those other things. Of course not. But let's

01:10:23.869 --> 01:10:26.710
just think about why that's the case. When you're

01:10:26.710 --> 01:10:28.710
underslept, you start to have what are called

01:10:28.710 --> 01:10:32.689
micro -sleeps. Sometimes your eyelid does not

01:10:32.689 --> 01:10:35.090
close all the way. It just partially closes.

01:10:35.270 --> 01:10:38.229
But the brain essentially goes to sleep for just

01:10:38.229 --> 01:10:40.949
a very brief period of time. You can even see

01:10:40.949 --> 01:10:43.189
individual brain cells. It looks like they go

01:10:43.189 --> 01:10:45.590
to sleep during these micro -sleeps. At that

01:10:45.590 --> 01:10:48.630
moment, if you're traveling in a vehicle on the

01:10:48.630 --> 01:10:51.369
freeway, you've got a one -ton missile traveling

01:10:51.369 --> 01:10:54.029
at 65 miles an hour and no one is in control.

01:10:54.789 --> 01:10:57.850
One ton if you're lucky. Yeah, exactly. When

01:10:57.850 --> 01:10:59.409
was the last time you saw a 2 ,000 -pound car

01:10:59.409 --> 01:11:03.869
unless you have a Miata? Yeah, or a McLaren P1.

01:11:04.130 --> 01:11:06.890
Even those are heavier than that. Are they really?

01:11:07.069 --> 01:11:08.949
Yeah. Shows my lack of knowledge despite loving

01:11:08.949 --> 01:11:14.380
them. And what happens here is that with drugs

01:11:14.380 --> 01:11:18.340
and alcohol, it's often the case of a problem

01:11:18.340 --> 01:11:22.520
of later reaction. With a lack of sleep, it's

01:11:22.520 --> 01:11:25.159
a problem of no reaction at all. So you're out

01:11:25.159 --> 01:11:27.079
of it. So you're out of it. So rather than breaking

01:11:27.079 --> 01:11:29.939
too late, there's just no breaking whatsoever.

01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:33.760
I have a tip for people, too. If you find yourself

01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:36.560
tired and driving and you have to stay awake,

01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:41.600
take either ice. or ice -cold water and put it

01:11:41.600 --> 01:11:44.399
in a washcloth and then rub your face with it.

01:11:44.439 --> 01:11:46.720
It keeps you awake. Works? Yeah, it works. I

01:11:46.720 --> 01:11:48.260
mean, if you're forced to drive for whatever

01:11:48.260 --> 01:11:50.640
reason, you have 20 minutes to go and you're

01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:53.680
really exhausted, do that. Ice is the best. Take

01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:57.100
a wet cloth, put ice inside of it, and just rub

01:11:57.100 --> 01:11:58.939
your face. It just wakes you right up for whatever

01:11:58.939 --> 01:12:02.659
reason. I mean, the statistics around drowsy

01:12:02.659 --> 01:12:05.020
driving, though, are frightening. It's a weird

01:12:05.020 --> 01:12:07.600
thing when you're on the road. There's something

01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:09.800
about those white lines that just want to put

01:12:09.800 --> 01:12:11.920
you to sleep. There's no other time where I feel

01:12:11.920 --> 01:12:14.300
more compelled to just conk out while I'm awake.

01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:16.560
Yeah, it's probably one of the greatest sedatives

01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:19.100
known to man. It's strange. It's that monotonous

01:12:19.100 --> 01:12:22.000
behavior. And the longer you go with that monotonous

01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:24.979
behavior, The worst things get, you know. And

01:12:24.979 --> 01:12:27.960
if you look at, you know, teenagers, that's where

01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:30.600
we see some of the greatest impact of drowsy

01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:32.460
driving. You know, it's the leading cause of

01:12:32.460 --> 01:12:34.760
death in most first world nations. Suicide is

01:12:34.760 --> 01:12:37.899
second. Wow, that is crazy. And it speaks to

01:12:37.899 --> 01:12:40.640
this model of later school start times. They've

01:12:40.640 --> 01:12:42.520
done these studies. There was a great one that

01:12:42.520 --> 01:12:45.239
was done, I think, in Teton County in Wyoming.

01:12:45.479 --> 01:12:47.760
They shifted their school start times from 7

01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:50.659
.35 in the morning to 8 .55 in the morning, much

01:12:50.659 --> 01:12:54.060
more biologically reasonable for teenagers. The

01:12:54.060 --> 01:12:55.880
only thing more impressive than the extra hour

01:12:55.880 --> 01:12:57.979
of sleep that those teenagers reported getting

01:12:57.979 --> 01:13:00.180
was the drop in vehicle accidents. There was

01:13:00.180 --> 01:13:03.079
a 70 % reduction in car crashes the following

01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:07.140
year when they made that time to 7 -0. Holy shit.

01:13:07.220 --> 01:13:09.319
So the advent of ABS technology, for example,

01:13:09.359 --> 01:13:11.060
anti -lock braking systems, that dropped accident

01:13:11.060 --> 01:13:14.140
rates by 20 to 25%. Some deemed it to be a revolution.

01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:17.800
Here's a simple biological factor, sleep, that

01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:22.659
will drop accident rates by 70%. Wow. So I think

01:13:22.659 --> 01:13:25.520
if our goal as educators truly is to educate,

01:13:25.760 --> 01:13:27.739
and we've spoken about learning in memory, and

01:13:27.739 --> 01:13:31.060
not risk lives in the process, then we are failing

01:13:31.060 --> 01:13:33.560
our children in the most spectacular manner with

01:13:33.560 --> 01:13:35.699
this incessant model of early school start times.

01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:38.739
Why do we do that? And not just early school

01:13:38.739 --> 01:13:41.720
times, but early work times too. I was driving

01:13:41.720 --> 01:13:44.699
to the airport the other day at 6 a .m. 6 a .m.,

01:13:44.699 --> 01:13:47.340
bumper -to -bumper traffic on the 405. I was

01:13:47.340 --> 01:13:49.180
like, this is insane. Look at these poor fucks.

01:13:49.420 --> 01:13:51.880
What are we doing? And if you're in the car at

01:13:51.880 --> 01:13:54.399
6 a .m. there, it means that you probably woke

01:13:54.399 --> 01:13:58.729
up. Four? Yeah, four. 4 .30? Average school start

01:13:58.729 --> 01:14:03.069
times in the U .S., some of them 7, 7 .25. Buses

01:14:03.069 --> 01:14:06.310
for a school start time of 7 .25 will begin leaving

01:14:06.310 --> 01:14:09.090
at 5 .30 in the morning. That means that some

01:14:09.090 --> 01:14:11.369
kids are having to wake up at 5 .15, 5 o 'clock,

01:14:11.390 --> 01:14:14.770
maybe even earlier. It's just lunacy. It is lunacy.

01:14:14.869 --> 01:14:16.569
Now, why do they do that? I mean, it's just a

01:14:16.569 --> 01:14:19.180
pattern that they've always done. They never

01:14:19.180 --> 01:14:21.760
corrected it? Yeah. It's a pattern that actually

01:14:21.760 --> 01:14:24.899
has changed over the past 30 or 40 years. I mean

01:14:24.899 --> 01:14:27.460
American schools used to go to – used to start

01:14:27.460 --> 01:14:30.220
around 9 o 'clock and it started to shift ever

01:14:30.220 --> 01:14:34.199
and ever earlier. Why? Part of it is because

01:14:34.199 --> 01:14:37.100
of work times that parents had to get to work

01:14:37.100 --> 01:14:38.619
at ever earlier start times. So they dropped

01:14:38.619 --> 01:14:41.479
the kids off before work. Yeah. And then bus

01:14:41.479 --> 01:14:43.979
unions and bus schools, they comply to that same

01:14:43.979 --> 01:14:47.159
timeframe as well and it becomes very difficult.

01:14:48.430 --> 01:14:50.729
I don't mean to chastise school systems or the

01:14:50.729 --> 01:14:53.109
bus unions. You know, it's an incredibly difficult

01:14:53.109 --> 01:14:56.750
logistics problem. But I have to think that,

01:14:56.829 --> 01:14:59.229
you know, what is our goal here? If our goal

01:14:59.229 --> 01:15:01.109
is to keep our kids safe and to get them well

01:15:01.109 --> 01:15:02.890
-educated and get information into the brain

01:15:02.890 --> 01:15:04.869
and nurture them and, you know, create them to

01:15:04.869 --> 01:15:08.609
be the next generation, early school start times,

01:15:08.789 --> 01:15:12.630
you know, are not the thing to do. There's a

01:15:12.630 --> 01:15:14.310
lot of lazy kids out there that are going, yes,

01:15:14.789 --> 01:15:18.430
preach on, doctor, preach. I mean, the data,

01:15:18.569 --> 01:15:20.029
you know, they looked at these academic things

01:15:20.029 --> 01:15:21.710
too. You know, one of these, another example

01:15:21.710 --> 01:15:24.829
comes from Adina in Minnesota, and they shifted

01:15:24.829 --> 01:15:29.029
school start times from, I think it was 725 to

01:15:29.029 --> 01:15:32.609
830 in the morning. And they looked at SAT scores.

01:15:33.270 --> 01:15:35.470
And in the year before they made the time change,

01:15:35.970 --> 01:15:38.810
the top 10 % performing students got an average

01:15:38.810 --> 01:15:42.300
SAT score of 1 ,288. which is a great score.

01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:45.479
The following year, when they were going to school

01:15:45.479 --> 01:15:48.939
now at 8 .30 rather than 7 .25, the average SAT

01:15:48.939 --> 01:15:54.600
score was 1 ,500. That's a 212 point increase,

01:15:54.859 --> 01:15:58.239
which is non -trivial. Wow, that's gigantic.

01:15:59.380 --> 01:16:03.600
Yeah, I think it's the school time in correlation

01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:06.000
with the work time. It's very difficult to get

01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:08.399
people off of that. Yeah, and that's part of

01:16:08.399 --> 01:16:12.279
what modernity has done. We're working longer

01:16:12.279 --> 01:16:15.960
hours and also we're commuting for longer durations

01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:18.760
of time. So therefore people are having to wake

01:16:18.760 --> 01:16:21.760
up earlier. They come home later. And the one

01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:25.060
thing that gets squeezed sort of like vice grips

01:16:25.060 --> 01:16:29.140
is this thing called sleep. And the decimation

01:16:29.140 --> 01:16:31.460
of sleep throughout industrialized nations as

01:16:31.460 --> 01:16:33.600
a consequence is having a catastrophic impact

01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:36.020
on our health and our wellness and the safety

01:16:36.020 --> 01:16:39.140
and the education of our children. Silent sleep

01:16:39.140 --> 01:16:45.060
loss epidemic. Wow. Now, other than making the

01:16:45.060 --> 01:16:47.819
room cold and warming up your hands and your

01:16:47.819 --> 01:16:50.100
feet and things along those lines, what about

01:16:50.100 --> 01:16:54.640
diet or even time that you eat? Is there a specific

01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:56.899
time before you go to bed that you should eat?

01:16:56.939 --> 01:16:58.420
How much time should you give yourself to digest

01:16:58.420 --> 01:17:01.670
your food? So the general advice right now is

01:17:01.670 --> 01:17:04.270
don't go to bed too full and don't go to bed

01:17:04.270 --> 01:17:06.729
too hungry. Again, if you're going to bed too

01:17:06.729 --> 01:17:09.250
hungry, you can get that sort of that signal

01:17:09.250 --> 01:17:11.869
of I'm starting to go into low level sort of

01:17:11.869 --> 01:17:14.250
starvation and that can keep people awake at

01:17:14.250 --> 01:17:18.109
night. The evidence in terms of diet composition

01:17:18.109 --> 01:17:20.409
and sleep is quite unclear. It's not particularly

01:17:20.409 --> 01:17:23.229
well researched area right now. What we do know

01:17:23.229 --> 01:17:28.159
is that diets that are high in sugar. and um

01:17:28.159 --> 01:17:31.779
sort of heavier stodgy carbohydrates and low

01:17:31.779 --> 01:17:34.880
in fiber those diets tend not to be good for

01:17:34.880 --> 01:17:37.239
sleep you tend to have less deep sleep and your

01:17:37.239 --> 01:17:39.920
sleep is also more fragmented throughout the

01:17:39.920 --> 01:17:43.380
night so that's sort of right now the best advice

01:17:43.380 --> 01:17:46.680
so you should eat several hours before you go

01:17:46.680 --> 01:17:49.840
to bed but not five hours that's right yeah like

01:17:49.840 --> 01:17:51.880
two hours maybe and it's different for different

01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:53.859
people and you will know it you know if you're

01:17:53.859 --> 01:17:56.180
sort of starting to wake up with really severe

01:17:56.180 --> 01:17:59.260
hunger pangs then what about supplements like

01:17:59.260 --> 01:18:01.560
melatonin supplements or things on those lines

01:18:01.560 --> 01:18:06.939
melatonin um is efficacious it's useful when

01:18:06.939 --> 01:18:10.359
you're traveling between time zones so at that

01:18:10.359 --> 01:18:12.779
point your body clock your internal clock is

01:18:12.779 --> 01:18:15.319
out of sync with the actual real time in the

01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:18.979
new time zone and let's say i fly from los angeles

01:18:18.979 --> 01:18:22.880
over to london back home um you know my melatonin

01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:25.500
spike is going to be eight hours in the past

01:18:25.500 --> 01:18:28.750
you know it sort of back in time. It's not going

01:18:28.750 --> 01:18:31.470
to arrive with me for eight hours. So I can take

01:18:31.470 --> 01:18:34.069
some melatonin. I can fool my brain into thinking,

01:18:34.130 --> 01:18:36.770
oh my goodness, it's actually dark when despite

01:18:36.770 --> 01:18:39.369
in California, it's still daylight once I've

01:18:39.369 --> 01:18:42.149
arrived at Heathrow Airport. So you can use melatonin

01:18:42.149 --> 01:18:44.869
strategically for jet lag. Once people, however,

01:18:45.050 --> 01:18:49.229
are stable in a new time zone, melatonin does

01:18:49.229 --> 01:18:52.210
not seem to be efficacious for helping sleep.

01:18:53.130 --> 01:18:55.710
That said, though, if people out there are taking

01:18:55.710 --> 01:18:58.250
melatonin and they think it helps, I would tell

01:18:58.250 --> 01:19:00.409
them to keep taking it because the placebo effect

01:19:00.409 --> 01:19:03.189
is the most reliable effect in all of pharmacology.

01:19:03.329 --> 01:19:05.989
So if it works for you, no harm, no foul. Keep

01:19:05.989 --> 01:19:08.810
taking it. Interesting. So the people that take

01:19:08.810 --> 01:19:12.020
melatonin nightly. They're like, this is what

01:19:12.020 --> 01:19:14.020
gets me to go to bed. Really, they're just playing

01:19:14.020 --> 01:19:16.020
a trick on their mind. Yeah, unless you're an

01:19:16.020 --> 01:19:18.920
older individual where your sort of 24 -hour

01:19:18.920 --> 01:19:20.739
rhythm, it's called your circadian rhythm, starts

01:19:20.739 --> 01:19:23.500
to get blunted and it's not as strong anymore.

01:19:24.020 --> 01:19:27.319
That's where nightly use of melatonin actually

01:19:27.319 --> 01:19:30.140
has been demonstrated to be efficacious. But

01:19:30.140 --> 01:19:33.260
if you're young, healthy, and you're taking melatonin,

01:19:33.319 --> 01:19:35.359
it's unlikely that it's actually helping your

01:19:35.359 --> 01:19:37.600
sleep. That's probably the placebo. So it really

01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:41.689
should just be just for traveling. Yeah. Or weird

01:19:41.689 --> 01:19:44.670
situations where your sleep is interrupted. That's

01:19:44.670 --> 01:19:46.670
right. And you need to kick it into gear. Bring

01:19:46.670 --> 01:19:48.850
it back online, yeah. So it's almost like a hack.

01:19:49.210 --> 01:19:51.029
Yeah, it's definitely, you know, that's one way

01:19:51.029 --> 01:19:52.609
that you can hack jet lag. I mean, there's no

01:19:52.609 --> 01:19:54.250
cure for jet lag, but there's actually lots of

01:19:54.250 --> 01:19:56.210
ways that you can hack jet lag. Are there any

01:19:56.210 --> 01:20:02.250
other vitamins or nutrients or particular foods

01:20:02.250 --> 01:20:06.770
that enhance the sleepy effect? I mean, there

01:20:06.770 --> 01:20:08.289
was always the thing about tryptophan. Everybody

01:20:08.289 --> 01:20:10.850
thought that tryptophan was in Turkey. But what

01:20:10.850 --> 01:20:13.210
I read was that was bullshit. And what was really

01:20:13.210 --> 01:20:15.649
going on was that you just ate a gigantic meal

01:20:15.649 --> 01:20:18.890
and it's filled with stuffing and mashed potatoes

01:20:18.890 --> 01:20:20.710
and all those carbohydrates cause you to just

01:20:20.710 --> 01:20:24.010
crash. And it's usually it's the time that everyone

01:20:24.010 --> 01:20:26.130
goes back through into sort of the living room.

01:20:26.210 --> 01:20:29.289
You lie down. Most people are chronically sleep

01:20:29.289 --> 01:20:31.710
deprived. And finally, you get the opportunity

01:20:31.710 --> 01:20:34.270
to sort of just rest and no one's doing anything

01:20:34.270 --> 01:20:36.800
because there's no plans. What do you think the

01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:38.539
numbers are of sleep deprived people in this

01:20:38.539 --> 01:20:40.939
country? So we know those numbers, actually.

01:20:41.479 --> 01:20:44.899
Almost one out of every two adults in America

01:20:44.899 --> 01:20:47.560
are not getting the recommended eight hours of

01:20:47.560 --> 01:20:50.039
sleep. Almost one out of every three people that

01:20:50.039 --> 01:20:52.380
you pass on the street are trying to survive

01:20:52.380 --> 01:20:56.539
on six hours or less of sleep. Back in 1942,

01:20:56.920 --> 01:20:59.140
Gallup did a poll. And what they found was that

01:20:59.140 --> 01:21:01.699
the average American adult was sleeping 7 .9

01:21:01.699 --> 01:21:05.270
hours of sleep. a night now that number most

01:21:05.270 --> 01:21:08.569
recently is down to six hours and 31 minutes

01:21:08.569 --> 01:21:10.989
for the average adult during the week in america

01:21:10.989 --> 01:21:13.189
that's the average by the way that means that

01:21:13.189 --> 01:21:15.649
there's a huge swath of people well below that

01:21:15.649 --> 01:21:17.710
average and what about the people that say that

01:21:17.710 --> 01:21:20.430
they sleep they go to bed they they sleep five

01:21:20.430 --> 01:21:22.850
hours they wake up and they feel great yeah is

01:21:22.850 --> 01:21:26.779
that bullshit um we have The number of people

01:21:26.779 --> 01:21:29.399
who can survive on six hours of sleep or less

01:21:29.399 --> 01:21:32.380
without showing any impairment rounded to a whole

01:21:32.380 --> 01:21:34.699
number and expressed as a percent of the population

01:21:34.699 --> 01:21:45.000
is zero. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Zero. And one of the

01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:46.659
big problems with a lack of sleep, by the way,

01:21:46.659 --> 01:21:48.699
is that you don't know you're sleep deprived

01:21:48.699 --> 01:21:51.279
when you're sleep deprived. So your subjective

01:21:51.279 --> 01:21:53.520
sense of how well you're doing with a lack of

01:21:53.520 --> 01:21:55.779
sleep is a miserable predictor of objectively

01:21:55.779 --> 01:21:57.739
how you're doing. So it's like a drunk driver.

01:21:57.779 --> 01:21:59.640
Especially with men, right? Yeah. Right. Especially.

01:21:59.760 --> 01:22:02.479
Yeah. Perfect example. You know, you're at the

01:22:02.479 --> 01:22:04.260
bar. You've had six or seven shots. I'm fine.

01:22:04.380 --> 01:22:06.500
I can drive home. I'm fine. And your response

01:22:06.500 --> 01:22:08.659
is, I know that you think you're fine to drive

01:22:08.659 --> 01:22:11.340
subjectively. Objectively, trust me, you're not.

01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:14.699
It's the same way with sleep deprivation. That's

01:22:14.699 --> 01:22:18.819
fascinating. But you're not drunk. So even though

01:22:18.819 --> 01:22:21.380
you're impaired, you don't feel like you're impaired.

01:22:21.520 --> 01:22:24.699
And you probably have a couple of espressos or

01:22:24.699 --> 01:22:27.420
one of these caveman coffees. You feel fine.

01:22:27.520 --> 01:22:30.640
You get juiced up. You're ready to go. And you're

01:22:30.640 --> 01:22:32.760
trying to accomplish things. You're trying to

01:22:32.760 --> 01:22:36.119
succeed. You're trying to get ahead in this life.

01:22:36.319 --> 01:22:39.560
I don't need to sleep. And that's completely

01:22:39.560 --> 01:22:42.439
counterintuitive based on the data. We know that

01:22:42.439 --> 01:22:46.479
people are more productive. And we've done some

01:22:46.479 --> 01:22:47.939
of these studies in the workplace where you look

01:22:47.939 --> 01:22:51.579
at, firstly, underslept employees will take on

01:22:51.579 --> 01:22:54.800
fewer work challenges overall. They end up taking

01:22:54.800 --> 01:22:57.560
the simpler ones like listening to voice messages

01:22:57.560 --> 01:22:59.479
rather than actually digging into deep project

01:22:59.479 --> 01:23:02.979
work. They produce fewer creative solutions to

01:23:02.979 --> 01:23:06.220
challenges that you give them. They also slack

01:23:06.220 --> 01:23:08.659
off. When they're working in groups, it's called

01:23:08.659 --> 01:23:11.060
social loafing, where they just ride the coattails

01:23:11.060 --> 01:23:13.779
of other people's hard work. The less sleep that

01:23:13.779 --> 01:23:15.439
you have, the more willing that you just sort

01:23:15.439 --> 01:23:18.680
of don't pull your weight. Furthermore, it goes

01:23:18.680 --> 01:23:20.920
all the way up to the top. So the more or less

01:23:20.920 --> 01:23:23.399
sleep that a business leader has had from one

01:23:23.399 --> 01:23:26.020
night to the next, the more or less charismatic

01:23:26.020 --> 01:23:28.800
their employees will rate that business leader,

01:23:28.899 --> 01:23:31.359
despite them knowing nothing about the sleep

01:23:31.359 --> 01:23:34.180
of that CEO. It's evident in their behavior.

01:23:34.279 --> 01:23:36.840
Well, because they're short. You know, they're

01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:39.699
short with their temper. They're quicker to get

01:23:39.699 --> 01:23:42.579
upset about things. They're less charismatic

01:23:42.579 --> 01:23:46.079
and social with their conversations. They're

01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:48.300
just more, okay, I got it, I got it, I got it.

01:23:48.560 --> 01:23:52.119
Go to work. Work for it, yeah. So less sleep

01:23:52.119 --> 01:23:54.899
does not equal more productivity. And it's always

01:23:54.899 --> 01:23:57.199
struck me as strange. You know, why do we sort

01:23:57.199 --> 01:23:59.819
of overvalue employees that undervalue sleep?

01:24:00.300 --> 01:24:03.000
And if you look at your workforce, you know,

01:24:03.420 --> 01:24:05.520
Trust me, everyone's going to be looking busy,

01:24:05.600 --> 01:24:08.180
but it's like stationary bikes. Everyone's looking

01:24:08.180 --> 01:24:10.020
like they're working hard, but there's no forward

01:24:10.020 --> 01:24:12.079
progress. The scenery never changes. That's what

01:24:12.079 --> 01:24:15.039
an underslept workforce will be for you. Now,

01:24:15.060 --> 01:24:18.140
what about the amount of time that people spend

01:24:18.140 --> 01:24:20.420
at work? I mean, I know this is not related to

01:24:20.420 --> 01:24:24.100
sleep, but I've always felt like people work

01:24:24.100 --> 01:24:27.520
too much. I feel like you probably get more done

01:24:27.520 --> 01:24:31.609
with less time there. Yeah. So efficiency is

01:24:31.609 --> 01:24:33.069
what we're talking about. And that's another

01:24:33.069 --> 01:24:35.489
one of those things with sleep deprivation. I

01:24:35.489 --> 01:24:37.090
think many people, when they haven't had a good

01:24:37.090 --> 01:24:38.750
night of sleep, that, you know, they're looking

01:24:38.750 --> 01:24:41.130
at this report and they realized, I've just read

01:24:41.130 --> 01:24:44.550
this paragraph a third time and I still can't

01:24:44.550 --> 01:24:46.390
quite get it. Because your head scrambled. Yeah.

01:24:47.270 --> 01:24:50.189
Efficiency, you know, productivity. But I would

01:24:50.189 --> 01:24:52.210
feel like when people are working eight hours

01:24:52.210 --> 01:24:55.050
a day. I don't think that you could work at peak

01:24:55.050 --> 01:24:57.069
capacity for eight hours. At least I don't think

01:24:57.069 --> 01:24:58.789
the average person can. No, you can't sustain

01:24:58.789 --> 01:25:01.869
that. So you're kind of bleeding these people.

01:25:01.989 --> 01:25:04.069
You're getting blood out of a rock in the last

01:25:04.069 --> 01:25:07.569
couple hours. And it's, yeah, it's not, you know,

01:25:07.569 --> 01:25:09.770
either a creative way to work. And creativity,

01:25:09.850 --> 01:25:11.689
you know, is supposed to be the engine of, you

01:25:11.689 --> 01:25:15.109
know, business and ingenuity. But why would you,

01:25:15.149 --> 01:25:18.630
you know, take... Twice the amount of time to

01:25:18.630 --> 01:25:22.050
boil a pot of water on half heat when you could

01:25:22.050 --> 01:25:24.109
do it in half the time if you just put it on

01:25:24.109 --> 01:25:26.489
high. Well, that's sleep. You know what's interesting,

01:25:26.590 --> 01:25:29.609
though? There are certain writers who use sleep

01:25:29.609 --> 01:25:32.710
deprivation as a strategy for creativity. They

01:25:32.710 --> 01:25:35.170
literally don't start. Like the writers for the

01:25:35.170 --> 01:25:37.529
sitcom I was on, News Radio, they wouldn't start

01:25:37.529 --> 01:25:39.359
writing until like 2, 3 in the morning. They

01:25:39.359 --> 01:25:41.119
would just play video games and fuck around.

01:25:41.479 --> 01:25:44.079
And then late at night, they would really start

01:25:44.079 --> 01:25:45.500
writing and they would write till like seven

01:25:45.500 --> 01:25:47.260
in the morning. They would be, they would stumble

01:25:47.260 --> 01:25:51.100
into the set like barefoot, delirious, hair all

01:25:51.100 --> 01:25:54.199
fucked up with hilarious scripts. And it's like

01:25:54.199 --> 01:25:57.800
they had used being silly and overtired as a

01:25:57.800 --> 01:26:00.159
strategy, almost like they were doing drugs,

01:26:00.199 --> 01:26:02.670
but they weren't doing any drugs. I mean, it

01:26:02.670 --> 01:26:05.229
comes back to it. Well, we don't know in that

01:26:05.229 --> 01:26:08.590
scenario. But what we have found, at least in

01:26:08.590 --> 01:26:11.649
our scientific studies, is that that prefrontal

01:26:11.649 --> 01:26:14.010
cortex region that we spoke about before, that

01:26:14.010 --> 01:26:16.229
sort of rational, logical part of the brain,

01:26:16.329 --> 01:26:18.409
that's one of the first things to go when you're

01:26:18.409 --> 01:26:21.510
sleep deprived. So that area of the brain just

01:26:21.510 --> 01:26:25.149
gets sort of switched off the more that you are

01:26:25.149 --> 01:26:27.630
sort of lacking in your sleep. And emotional,

01:26:27.930 --> 01:26:30.550
deep emotional centers of the brain, which are

01:26:30.550 --> 01:26:33.090
normally controlled and kept in check by that

01:26:33.090 --> 01:26:36.810
prefrontal cortex, they just erupt in terms of

01:26:36.810 --> 01:26:39.569
their activity. So you're all emotional gas pedal

01:26:39.569 --> 01:26:42.289
and too little regulatory control break, which

01:26:42.289 --> 01:26:45.689
for the most part, very bad. But, you know, one

01:26:45.689 --> 01:26:47.810
possibility is that if you want to try and get

01:26:47.810 --> 01:26:51.279
a little bit sort of. you know. crazy, loosey

01:26:51.279 --> 01:26:54.579
-goosey, maybe that's not bad for that type of

01:26:54.579 --> 01:26:57.220
sort of comedic writing that you become a bit

01:26:57.220 --> 01:26:59.739
more childlike. And I say that affectionately

01:26:59.739 --> 01:27:02.100
because the last part of the brain to mature

01:27:02.100 --> 01:27:05.600
in development is the prefrontal cortex. So you

01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:08.220
revert back to almost a more childlike state.

01:27:08.319 --> 01:27:11.560
But I honestly would not condone that sort of

01:27:11.560 --> 01:27:14.180
undergoing sleep just based on the mortality

01:27:14.180 --> 01:27:17.600
and risk of Alzheimer's and cancer by itself.

01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:20.579
You just don't want to undersleep. short doses

01:27:20.579 --> 01:27:22.760
like you have a couple days a week like here's

01:27:22.760 --> 01:27:25.979
the if sleep is not a renewable resource like

01:27:25.979 --> 01:27:28.220
what is the effect of say if you have three nights

01:27:28.220 --> 01:27:31.539
a week where you sleep eight hours and then the

01:27:31.539 --> 01:27:35.100
next night two hours and then the next night

01:27:35.100 --> 01:27:37.260
eight hours how much of a bump or how much of

01:27:37.260 --> 01:27:40.300
a dip does that two hours give you in your overall

01:27:40.300 --> 01:27:43.560
health it's bad It's bad. So I'll give you two

01:27:43.560 --> 01:27:46.140
examples. There was a study where they just took

01:27:46.140 --> 01:27:48.479
individuals and they just gave them four hours

01:27:48.479 --> 01:27:51.239
of sleep for one night. And what they saw was

01:27:51.239 --> 01:27:54.680
a 70 % reduction in critical anti -cancer fighting

01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:57.800
immune cells called natural killer cells. These

01:27:57.800 --> 01:28:02.279
are wonderful immune assassins that target malignant

01:28:02.279 --> 01:28:06.359
cells. Today, both you and I have produced cancer

01:28:06.359 --> 01:28:09.239
cells in our body. What prevents those cancer

01:28:09.239 --> 01:28:11.279
cells from becoming the disease that we call

01:28:11.279 --> 01:28:13.680
cancer is in part these natural killer cells.

01:28:14.359 --> 01:28:17.340
And after one night of four hours of sleep, that

01:28:17.340 --> 01:28:20.380
is a remarkable state of immune deficiency. And

01:28:20.380 --> 01:28:22.899
that's one of the reasons why insufficient sleep

01:28:22.899 --> 01:28:25.859
predicts cancer. I could also speak about your

01:28:25.859 --> 01:28:28.039
cardiovascular system, though, and all it takes

01:28:28.039 --> 01:28:31.000
is one hour. Because there is a global experiment

01:28:31.000 --> 01:28:34.220
that's performed on 1 .6 billion people across

01:28:34.220 --> 01:28:37.560
70 countries twice a year, and it's called Daylight

01:28:37.560 --> 01:28:40.979
Savings Time. Now, in the spring, when we lose

01:28:40.979 --> 01:28:44.220
an hour of sleep, we see a subsequent 24 % increase

01:28:44.220 --> 01:28:48.520
in heart attacks. What? In the fall, in the autumn,

01:28:48.579 --> 01:28:50.500
when we gain an hour of sleep, there's a 21 %

01:28:50.500 --> 01:28:53.680
decrease in heart attacks. So it's bidirectional.

01:28:54.140 --> 01:28:57.319
That's how fragile and vulnerable your body is

01:28:57.319 --> 01:28:59.840
to even just the smallest perturbation of sleep.

01:28:59.939 --> 01:29:03.479
One hour. One hour is all it takes. Yeah. Wow.

01:29:04.880 --> 01:29:07.640
That is, you're blowing my fucking mind. It's

01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:09.439
frightening. I mean, you can go even further,

01:29:09.500 --> 01:29:12.880
by the way. Wow. Insufficient sleep will even

01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:15.920
erode the very fabric of biological life itself,

01:29:16.220 --> 01:29:19.960
your DNA code. So in one study, they took a group

01:29:19.960 --> 01:29:23.170
of healthy adults. And they limited them to six

01:29:23.170 --> 01:29:25.909
hours of sleep for one week. And they compared

01:29:25.909 --> 01:29:29.189
the profile of gene activity relative to when

01:29:29.189 --> 01:29:31.170
those same people were getting eight hours of

01:29:31.170 --> 01:29:34.029
sleep. And there were two critical results. The

01:29:34.029 --> 01:29:38.529
first was that a sizable 711 genes were distorted

01:29:38.529 --> 01:29:41.989
in their activity caused by one week of six hours

01:29:41.989 --> 01:29:44.850
of sleep, which is highly relevant, by the way,

01:29:44.869 --> 01:29:46.649
because we know that many people are trying to

01:29:46.649 --> 01:29:48.670
survive on six hours of sleep during the week.

01:29:48.930 --> 01:29:53.800
Wow. The second, sorry, I was going to say the

01:29:53.800 --> 01:29:55.880
second sort of perhaps more interesting result

01:29:55.880 --> 01:29:58.100
was that about half of those genes were actually

01:29:58.100 --> 01:30:00.819
increased in their activity. The other half were

01:30:00.819 --> 01:30:03.979
actually suppressed. Those genes that were switched

01:30:03.979 --> 01:30:06.539
off by six hours of sleep for one week were genes

01:30:06.539 --> 01:30:09.239
related to your immune response, many of them.

01:30:09.359 --> 01:30:12.859
So you become immune deficient. Those genes that

01:30:12.859 --> 01:30:15.279
were increased, or what we call overexpressed,

01:30:15.380 --> 01:30:17.479
were genes that were related to the promotion

01:30:17.479 --> 01:30:20.659
of tumors, genes that were related to long -term

01:30:20.659 --> 01:30:23.600
chronic inflammation within the body, and genes

01:30:23.600 --> 01:30:26.460
that were associated with stress and, as a consequence,

01:30:26.699 --> 01:30:29.520
cardiovascular disease. This is unbelievable.

01:30:30.329 --> 01:30:33.069
You know what's really disturbing to me? In my

01:30:33.069 --> 01:30:38.329
youth, from age probably, I guess I was probably

01:30:38.329 --> 01:30:43.050
18 when I started, I delivered newspapers. I

01:30:43.050 --> 01:30:45.409
used to drive around and throw newspapers out

01:30:45.409 --> 01:30:49.010
of my car, and I did it for years. And I would

01:30:49.010 --> 01:30:51.470
have to be up at 5 o 'clock every morning. And

01:30:51.470 --> 01:30:56.270
I never, never went to bed early. Yeah. Ever.

01:30:56.329 --> 01:30:59.069
And I worked 365 days a year. How old were you,

01:30:59.069 --> 01:31:00.890
by the way? I think I started when I was 18.

01:31:01.010 --> 01:31:03.069
I might have been 17 whenever I started driving.

01:31:03.590 --> 01:31:06.270
Well, I drove at 16, but I don't think I started

01:31:06.270 --> 01:31:08.210
right away delivering newspapers, but I was trying

01:31:08.210 --> 01:31:12.390
to find a good part -time job. I think I was

01:31:12.390 --> 01:31:15.250
like either in my senior year of high school

01:31:15.250 --> 01:31:17.270
or after, I think right after my senior year

01:31:17.270 --> 01:31:19.109
of high school. So I was probably 18. Okay. And

01:31:19.109 --> 01:31:20.329
the reason I asked, by the way, is because...

01:31:20.649 --> 01:31:22.510
as you go through into those sort of later stages

01:31:22.510 --> 01:31:24.789
of adolescence and sort of early adulthood your

01:31:24.789 --> 01:31:27.590
biological rhythm moves forward in time so you

01:31:27.590 --> 01:31:29.750
want to go to bed later and wake up later so

01:31:29.750 --> 01:31:32.130
even if you went to bed sort of conscientiously

01:31:32.130 --> 01:31:34.710
at that time let's say like 10 o 'clock or 9

01:31:34.710 --> 01:31:36.609
o 'clock you wouldn't be able to sleep Because

01:31:36.609 --> 01:31:39.289
it's biologically impossible. Yeah. No, I didn't

01:31:39.289 --> 01:31:41.649
sleep. And then on Saturday, even worse, one

01:31:41.649 --> 01:31:44.470
day a week, Saturday night, I'd have to get up

01:31:44.470 --> 01:31:47.229
at three or four in the morning because I had

01:31:47.229 --> 01:31:49.489
to deliver Sunday papers. And the Sunday papers

01:31:49.489 --> 01:31:53.470
were enormous. And so I had to pack a van filled

01:31:53.470 --> 01:31:56.050
with 350 people that I would deliver papers to.

01:31:56.109 --> 01:31:58.430
So I'd have to do multiple trips. So I'd start

01:31:58.430 --> 01:32:02.250
work at. I'd start delivering somewhere around

01:32:02.250 --> 01:32:05.029
435, depending on when the papers got in, and

01:32:05.029 --> 01:32:09.090
I was done by like 9, you know, 930, and then

01:32:09.090 --> 01:32:11.510
I'd try to crash, but I was a wreck. Yeah. I

01:32:11.510 --> 01:32:14.250
mean, and it fucked me up for years. For years

01:32:14.250 --> 01:32:16.949
I did that. And I stop and think about that now,

01:32:17.090 --> 01:32:19.970
listening to you, listening to this conversation,

01:32:20.109 --> 01:32:21.710
like what kind of fucking damage did I do to

01:32:21.710 --> 01:32:23.810
myself over those years? Yeah, I won't tell you

01:32:23.810 --> 01:32:25.909
about the stuff with Alzheimer's then and amyloid

01:32:25.909 --> 01:32:29.109
protein. Well, I feel okay now. It's been several

01:32:29.109 --> 01:32:32.930
decades. Did I mention that your subjective sense

01:32:32.930 --> 01:32:34.609
of how well you're doing with insufficient sleep?

01:32:34.670 --> 01:32:38.170
Wow, I'm sure you did. And I'm sure that there's

01:32:38.170 --> 01:32:40.930
a factor there. What's stunning to me is that

01:32:40.930 --> 01:32:43.909
six hours is so detrimental. I would have thought

01:32:43.909 --> 01:32:46.239
that would have been fine. The six hours is good.

01:32:46.399 --> 01:32:48.579
Like you get six hours, that's good. That's normal

01:32:48.579 --> 01:32:50.800
for me. Yeah. Like six hours is normal. Like

01:32:50.800 --> 01:32:54.420
literally the minimum is seven. Yeah. Seven to

01:32:54.420 --> 01:32:56.800
nine hours of sleep. Seven you need. Yeah. Anything

01:32:56.800 --> 01:32:59.319
under seven is bullshit. Yeah. For the average

01:32:59.319 --> 01:33:00.720
adult. You really should get eight. There is

01:33:00.720 --> 01:33:05.720
a small fraction of 1 % of the population that

01:33:05.720 --> 01:33:07.960
has a special gene that allows them to survive

01:33:07.960 --> 01:33:12.239
on about five hours of sleep. And most people,

01:33:12.279 --> 01:33:14.699
when I tell them this, they say, ah. I must have

01:33:14.699 --> 01:33:17.640
that. I'm one of those people. The chances of

01:33:17.640 --> 01:33:20.039
you being, you know, you're much more likely,

01:33:20.159 --> 01:33:22.199
for example, to be struck by lightning in your

01:33:22.199 --> 01:33:23.939
lifetime, the odds of which are, I think, about

01:33:23.939 --> 01:33:27.260
one in 12 ,500, than you are to have this incredibly

01:33:27.260 --> 01:33:30.079
rare gene that means you can survive on something

01:33:30.079 --> 01:33:32.939
around five hours of sleep. Really? Yeah. And

01:33:32.939 --> 01:33:35.600
what is the gene? Well, it's a gene that seems

01:33:35.600 --> 01:33:39.939
to promote sort of, again, wakefulness. chemistry

01:33:39.939 --> 01:33:42.619
within the brain that allows you to sort of maintain

01:33:42.619 --> 01:33:48.159
wakefulness in a more sustained way and so we're

01:33:48.159 --> 01:33:49.939
only trying to understand right now what the

01:33:49.939 --> 01:33:52.640
actual biochemical mechanisms are of in terms

01:33:52.640 --> 01:33:55.020
of the consequence of that gene that gene mutation

01:33:56.530 --> 01:33:59.069
But certainly it seems to exist that there are

01:33:59.069 --> 01:34:01.689
some of those quote unquote short sleepers. By

01:34:01.689 --> 01:34:03.689
the way, you know, we hear of these business

01:34:03.689 --> 01:34:06.609
leaders and even actually heads of state. I'm

01:34:06.609 --> 01:34:08.189
not going to name any names, but I'll give you

01:34:08.189 --> 01:34:10.649
right now. But I'll give you two examples of

01:34:10.649 --> 01:34:13.229
the past. Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan

01:34:13.229 --> 01:34:16.869
both were vociferous in their statement and their

01:34:16.869 --> 01:34:18.949
declaration of how little sleep that they would

01:34:18.949 --> 01:34:21.270
get. Both of them said four or five hours a night.

01:34:21.729 --> 01:34:24.189
And I think in part it was to. paint this heroic

01:34:24.189 --> 01:34:28.310
ironclad status. And many people would say to

01:34:28.310 --> 01:34:31.569
me, you know, Margaret Thatcher, lifetime. Well,

01:34:31.710 --> 01:34:34.970
sadly and tragically, Thatcher and Reagan both

01:34:34.970 --> 01:34:37.819
ended up getting Alzheimer's disease. And we

01:34:37.819 --> 01:34:40.659
now know because of it's during deep sleep at

01:34:40.659 --> 01:34:43.619
night that there is a sewage system in the brain

01:34:43.619 --> 01:34:46.439
that kicks into high gear and it cleanses the

01:34:46.439 --> 01:34:48.760
brain of all of the metabolic toxins that have

01:34:48.760 --> 01:34:50.899
been built up throughout the day, this low -level

01:34:50.899 --> 01:34:54.319
brain damage. One of those toxic sticky proteins

01:34:54.319 --> 01:34:56.520
that builds up whilst we're awake is called beta

01:34:56.520 --> 01:34:59.640
amyloid. Beta amyloid is one of the leading causes.

01:35:00.359 --> 01:35:02.439
of underlying the mechanism of Alzheimer's disease.

01:35:02.819 --> 01:35:05.420
So the less sleep that you're having across the

01:35:05.420 --> 01:35:09.340
lifespan, the more of that toxic amyloid is building

01:35:09.340 --> 01:35:12.479
up night after night, year after year. And I

01:35:12.479 --> 01:35:14.840
don't think it's coincidental that both of them

01:35:14.840 --> 01:35:17.720
ended up progressing tragically into a state

01:35:17.720 --> 01:35:20.840
of Alzheimer's disease. So it's good night's

01:35:20.840 --> 01:35:23.399
sleep clean in that way in terms of deep sleep.

01:35:23.520 --> 01:35:26.699
That's critical. That is stunning. Are there

01:35:26.699 --> 01:35:29.380
anything – is there anything you can do in terms

01:35:29.380 --> 01:35:32.180
of how you eat or supplements you can take that

01:35:32.180 --> 01:35:34.840
could potentially at least somewhat mitigate

01:35:34.840 --> 01:35:38.439
the effects of having no sleep? We haven't found

01:35:38.439 --> 01:35:40.960
any good countermeasures. Have you tried diet

01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:46.439
pills? So people have tried things like ephedrine.

01:35:47.140 --> 01:35:50.699
Amphetamines. Amphetamines. I mean caffeine has

01:35:50.699 --> 01:35:53.159
been used strategically by the military for years

01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:56.710
and caffeine can – help you get over the basic

01:35:56.710 --> 01:35:59.010
reduction in your alertness. So basic response

01:35:59.010 --> 01:36:04.050
times. You can dose with caffeine and still maintain

01:36:04.050 --> 01:36:06.729
some degree of a fast response under conditions

01:36:06.729 --> 01:36:09.789
of sleep deprivation. What about provigil or

01:36:09.789 --> 01:36:11.250
nuvigil? Have you studied those at all? Yeah,

01:36:11.270 --> 01:36:13.850
so modafinil is sort of the underlying chemical

01:36:13.850 --> 01:36:16.149
there. And it's debated who actually came up

01:36:16.149 --> 01:36:17.449
with it. It may have been the French military

01:36:17.449 --> 01:36:20.529
who actually ended up being the generators of

01:36:20.529 --> 01:36:23.619
that. That seems to work through a pathway, at

01:36:23.619 --> 01:36:26.220
least right now as we understand it, for a chemical

01:36:26.220 --> 01:36:28.500
called dopamine. And dopamine is principally

01:36:28.500 --> 01:36:31.399
known as a pleasure drug. It's the chemical that

01:36:31.399 --> 01:36:33.560
a lot of drugs of abuse will target to sort of

01:36:33.560 --> 01:36:36.779
ramp up. But it also is a basic alertness drug

01:36:36.779 --> 01:36:39.239
that when you get an increase in dopamine, you

01:36:39.239 --> 01:36:41.760
tend to actually get an increase in your alertness

01:36:41.760 --> 01:36:43.500
and your wakefulness. Don't you get an increase

01:36:43.500 --> 01:36:47.039
in happiness as well? You can too, although modafinil

01:36:47.039 --> 01:36:49.399
tends to come with the alertness component of

01:36:49.399 --> 01:36:52.300
that equation. So with the euphoria, that's why

01:36:52.300 --> 01:36:55.819
it has a lower prevalence of sort of addiction

01:36:55.819 --> 01:36:58.539
and abuse. Boy, I know a lot of people who I

01:36:58.539 --> 01:37:01.159
wouldn't say they abuse it, but they say they

01:37:01.159 --> 01:37:04.560
have to use it like all the doctor says. Doctor

01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:07.279
says I got to use it. And I'm always suspicious

01:37:07.279 --> 01:37:10.359
because they seem pretty normal other than the

01:37:10.359 --> 01:37:12.520
fact that they they're exhausted if they don't

01:37:12.520 --> 01:37:15.250
take this. What's essentially a stimulant? I've

01:37:15.250 --> 01:37:18.470
taken it a few times. I've taken it when I have

01:37:18.470 --> 01:37:20.689
to drive long periods of time. Like I'm driving

01:37:20.689 --> 01:37:23.250
from San Diego to California or to Los Angeles

01:37:23.250 --> 01:37:26.310
and maybe I have a gig. My gig's done at like

01:37:26.310 --> 01:37:28.529
11 .30. I know I'm going to be on the road late

01:37:28.529 --> 01:37:31.760
at night. I might take one. And it's fine, but

01:37:31.760 --> 01:37:33.920
it gives you this weird feeling. It's a weird

01:37:33.920 --> 01:37:39.520
state. And I know a lot of tech people, a lot

01:37:39.520 --> 01:37:41.859
of Silicon Valley is on this stuff and they pop

01:37:41.859 --> 01:37:44.979
it like candy. So much so that Tim Ferriss, when

01:37:44.979 --> 01:37:47.560
he was writing his book, The 4 -Hour Body, he

01:37:47.560 --> 01:37:49.560
didn't want to include it. He didn't want to

01:37:49.560 --> 01:37:52.300
include this particular drug because he felt

01:37:52.300 --> 01:37:53.460
like people were just going to eat it all the

01:37:53.460 --> 01:37:55.819
time. I mean, and it's right throughout student

01:37:55.819 --> 01:37:59.060
populations, study drug as well. As is Adderall.

01:37:59.300 --> 01:38:02.180
Yeah. And Adderall, you know, one of the interesting

01:38:02.180 --> 01:38:06.180
things is that if you look at the profile of

01:38:06.180 --> 01:38:08.399
what sleep deprivation is cognitively, you know,

01:38:08.420 --> 01:38:11.640
reduced alertness, impulsivity, lack of ability

01:38:11.640 --> 01:38:14.180
to concentrate, difficulties with learning and

01:38:14.180 --> 01:38:16.140
memory, difficulties with behavioral problems.

01:38:17.119 --> 01:38:19.920
If I were to describe those features to a pediatrician

01:38:19.920 --> 01:38:22.600
and say, what disorder is this? Probably say

01:38:22.600 --> 01:38:26.710
it's... It's ADHD. Yes. But what we now know

01:38:26.710 --> 01:38:28.909
is that there is some portion of children out

01:38:28.909 --> 01:38:31.869
there who are diagnosed with ADHD who either

01:38:31.869 --> 01:38:34.829
one are just underslept or two actually have

01:38:34.829 --> 01:38:36.850
sleep disordered breathing because of perhaps

01:38:36.850 --> 01:38:39.170
tonsil problems where they're not getting sufficient

01:38:39.170 --> 01:38:41.890
sleep. And when you treat the sleep disorder,

01:38:42.029 --> 01:38:44.489
when you do a sort of, you know, remove the tonsils,

01:38:44.489 --> 01:38:48.989
they start sleeping normally. And the ADHD. disappears

01:38:48.989 --> 01:38:52.310
wow so there is an issue here i think within

01:38:52.310 --> 01:38:55.130
that sort of the explosion of adhd not all people

01:38:55.130 --> 01:38:58.270
are you know sort of privy to this sort of sleep

01:38:58.270 --> 01:39:01.050
problem simply masquerading as adhd some people

01:39:01.050 --> 01:39:03.850
are one of the other problems too though is that

01:39:03.850 --> 01:39:08.229
adhd kids tend not to sleep very well and What

01:39:08.229 --> 01:39:11.729
we end up giving them is a drug that is a stimulant,

01:39:11.729 --> 01:39:14.869
which will combat sleep and fight back against

01:39:14.869 --> 01:39:17.310
sleep. So I think we need to have a bit more

01:39:17.310 --> 01:39:19.390
of a strategic approach as to when we think about

01:39:19.390 --> 01:39:22.550
at least the dose of that medication in terms

01:39:22.550 --> 01:39:25.369
of when sleep should be sort of expected during

01:39:25.369 --> 01:39:27.550
the day. Because, you know, taking it in the

01:39:27.550 --> 01:39:29.390
middle of the day, in the evening, if it's a

01:39:29.390 --> 01:39:31.729
stimulant, it's a weight -promoting drug. You

01:39:31.729 --> 01:39:33.510
need to be very careful. Sleep is part of that.

01:39:33.609 --> 01:39:36.170
Well, that's terrifying because I don't know

01:39:36.170 --> 01:39:38.210
if the people that are prescribing these things

01:39:38.210 --> 01:39:40.609
have the sort of deep education in sleep and

01:39:40.609 --> 01:39:42.930
the necessity of it that you do. They don't.

01:39:42.930 --> 01:39:45.470
And, you know, it's not their fault either. In

01:39:45.470 --> 01:39:47.729
fact, I've started to try and lobby doctors to

01:39:47.729 --> 01:39:50.569
start prescribing sleep. And don't make the mistake

01:39:50.569 --> 01:39:52.890
that that's me suggesting, you know, prescribing

01:39:52.890 --> 01:39:55.189
sleeping pills. That's a separate story. Sleeping

01:39:55.189 --> 01:39:57.869
pills are associated with significantly higher

01:39:57.869 --> 01:40:00.329
risk of death and cancer. And I'm happy to speak

01:40:00.329 --> 01:40:02.810
about that, too. The one chapter in the book

01:40:02.810 --> 01:40:06.250
that I think the legal team of my publisher took

01:40:06.250 --> 01:40:10.250
a very long, long look at. But I think doctors,

01:40:10.289 --> 01:40:13.430
to come back to your point, they on average only

01:40:13.430 --> 01:40:15.909
have about two hours of sleep education in the

01:40:15.909 --> 01:40:19.409
medical curriculum. So one third of hours, two

01:40:19.409 --> 01:40:22.090
hours, one third of that. This podcast has been

01:40:22.090 --> 01:40:25.229
two hours. Yeah, that's fucking crazy. Isn't

01:40:25.229 --> 01:40:27.470
that frightening? That's terrifying. And I bet

01:40:27.470 --> 01:40:30.029
you probably have laid things out better in this

01:40:30.029 --> 01:40:31.770
podcast than you would get in those two hours

01:40:31.770 --> 01:40:34.920
of education. I don't know about that, but I'll

01:40:34.920 --> 01:40:38.039
give you that credit. If they could increase

01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:41.560
that, you know, I'm desperately appealing for

01:40:41.560 --> 01:40:43.079
this. You know, it's a third of their patient's

01:40:43.079 --> 01:40:45.880
life, but they only get two hours of education.

01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:47.859
But the other problem is the medical industry

01:40:47.859 --> 01:40:51.340
itself, by the way. You know, their residents,

01:40:51.460 --> 01:40:55.520
that data, you know. Residents working a 30 -hour

01:40:55.520 --> 01:40:59.979
shift are 460 % more likely to make diagnostic

01:40:59.979 --> 01:41:02.300
errors in the intensive care unit relative to

01:41:02.300 --> 01:41:05.060
when they're working 16 hours. If you have elective

01:41:05.060 --> 01:41:07.039
surgery, you should ask your surgeon how much

01:41:07.039 --> 01:41:09.800
sleep they've had in the past 24 hours. If they've

01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:13.500
had six hours of sleep or less, you have a 170

01:41:13.500 --> 01:41:17.779
% increased risk of a major surgical error, such

01:41:17.779 --> 01:41:21.960
as... sort of organ damage or hemorrhaging relative

01:41:21.960 --> 01:41:25.539
to that same surgeon if they had been well -rested.

01:41:25.619 --> 01:41:28.699
And then the irony here, by the way, is that

01:41:28.699 --> 01:41:32.060
when a resident finishes a 30 -hour shift, gets

01:41:32.060 --> 01:41:34.960
back into their car to drive home, there is a

01:41:34.960 --> 01:41:38.399
168 % increased risk that they will get into

01:41:38.399 --> 01:41:41.020
a car accident because of their underslept state,

01:41:41.199 --> 01:41:44.399
ending up back in the same emergency room where

01:41:44.399 --> 01:41:46.869
they... Just came from, but now as a patient

01:41:46.869 --> 01:41:50.590
from a car crash. You know, we need to radically

01:41:50.590 --> 01:41:53.210
rethink the importance of sleep in education,

01:41:53.609 --> 01:41:57.409
in business, in the workplace, and in medicine

01:41:57.409 --> 01:42:00.850
too. Why do they do that to residents? It's a

01:42:00.850 --> 01:42:04.289
fascinating story. So there's a chapter here

01:42:04.289 --> 01:42:06.510
in the book on this too. It's a guy called William

01:42:06.510 --> 01:42:10.529
Halstead. And he set up the first resident surgical

01:42:10.529 --> 01:42:13.090
program in the United States at Johns Hopkins

01:42:13.090 --> 01:42:16.939
University. And he was known for being able to

01:42:16.939 --> 01:42:19.460
stay awake for these heroic lengths of time,

01:42:19.500 --> 01:42:23.140
days on end. It was incredible, like superhuman

01:42:23.140 --> 01:42:26.619
strength. Turns out that in later years after

01:42:26.619 --> 01:42:30.000
he died, there was a dirty secret that he was

01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:34.149
actually a cocaine addict. That son of a bitch.

01:42:34.210 --> 01:42:36.170
And here's what happened. It wasn't his fault.

01:42:37.069 --> 01:42:41.489
Early in his career, he was examining the anesthetic

01:42:41.489 --> 01:42:44.250
capacities of cocaine. So, you know, if well,

01:42:44.390 --> 01:42:46.329
I'm not going to say, you know, you may have

01:42:46.329 --> 01:42:49.810
heard from perhaps colleagues that when you snort

01:42:49.810 --> 01:42:52.819
cocaine, you get a numb face. The reason is because

01:42:52.819 --> 01:42:55.380
it blocks nerves. I like how you said it from

01:42:55.380 --> 01:42:59.079
colleagues. My colleagues have told me. I've

01:42:59.079 --> 01:43:02.220
actually never done cocaine, but I know quite

01:43:02.220 --> 01:43:04.350
a few people who have. And they will, you know,

01:43:04.369 --> 01:43:06.329
they'll have this sort of numbness. The reason

01:43:06.329 --> 01:43:08.510
is because cocaine is also a nerve blocking agent.

01:43:08.750 --> 01:43:11.029
Yeah, like lidocaine. Lidocaine, exactly. We

01:43:11.029 --> 01:43:12.409
talked about this yesterday, ironically, on the

01:43:12.409 --> 01:43:15.029
podcast and about doctors becoming drug addicts.

01:43:15.029 --> 01:43:16.989
The initial doctors that started doing lidocaine.

01:43:17.109 --> 01:43:19.930
Halstead was one of them. And so he became an

01:43:19.930 --> 01:43:23.670
accidental cocaine addict. Wow. And then he was

01:43:23.670 --> 01:43:27.890
up for days. And he structured a program where

01:43:27.890 --> 01:43:30.729
he expected his residents to match him, to go

01:43:30.729 --> 01:43:33.699
toe to toe with him. Oh, my God. It sounds like

01:43:33.699 --> 01:43:36.920
what a coke head would do. Come on, man, stay

01:43:36.920 --> 01:43:39.399
awake. Unbelievable. And I think the story was

01:43:39.399 --> 01:43:41.319
that he actually knew that it was a problem.

01:43:41.399 --> 01:43:43.619
He went to rehabilitation, checked in under a

01:43:43.619 --> 01:43:47.539
different surname. And one part of the regiment

01:43:47.539 --> 01:43:51.239
for him coming off cocaine was to prescribe morphine.

01:43:52.079 --> 01:43:54.079
And at the end of the rehabilitation program,

01:43:54.239 --> 01:43:57.180
he came out with both a cocaine addiction and

01:43:57.180 --> 01:44:00.979
a heroin addiction. Oh, my God. And so now there's

01:44:00.979 --> 01:44:04.319
rumors, you know, that he would get his shirts

01:44:04.319 --> 01:44:07.880
laundered in Paris, you know, in France. And,

01:44:07.899 --> 01:44:10.279
you know, they would come back. And it wasn't

01:44:10.279 --> 01:44:12.680
just the white starch, you know, shirts that

01:44:12.680 --> 01:44:15.279
were in the box. There were other white substances,

01:44:15.500 --> 01:44:18.199
too. But that's, you know, you ask a great question.

01:44:19.159 --> 01:44:22.079
Where's that history? The legacy seems to date

01:44:22.079 --> 01:44:24.600
back to William Halstead, who was an accidental

01:44:24.600 --> 01:44:27.739
cocaine addict. And there we have then maintained

01:44:27.739 --> 01:44:32.420
that inhumane practice in medicine. Which is

01:44:32.420 --> 01:44:37.079
like so critical to be awake and aware and to

01:44:37.079 --> 01:44:39.739
be sharp. You're cutting people open. You're

01:44:39.739 --> 01:44:41.800
operating on people. And think back to what we

01:44:41.800 --> 01:44:44.539
said about being awake. You would never accept

01:44:44.539 --> 01:44:47.739
treatment from a doctor who started looking at

01:44:47.739 --> 01:44:50.399
your child who's sick with an appendicitis at

01:44:50.399 --> 01:44:52.579
3 a .m. in the morning, who then swigs some whiskey

01:44:52.579 --> 01:44:54.039
and says, yeah, I'm going to do the operation.

01:44:54.039 --> 01:44:57.869
It's fine. You would go ballistic. Why do we

01:44:57.869 --> 01:45:00.390
accept treatment? You know, after 20 hours of

01:45:00.390 --> 01:45:02.810
being awake, you're as impaired as you would

01:45:02.810 --> 01:45:05.270
be if you were legally drunk. So unfortunately,

01:45:05.369 --> 01:45:08.449
we placed young residents in this position of,

01:45:08.689 --> 01:45:11.090
you know, acting and operating and decision making

01:45:11.090 --> 01:45:14.510
under conditions of insufficient sleep. One in

01:45:14.510 --> 01:45:17.750
five medical residents will make a serious medical

01:45:17.750 --> 01:45:20.470
error due to insufficient sleep. One in 20 medical

01:45:20.470 --> 01:45:23.710
residents will kill a patient because of a fatigue

01:45:23.710 --> 01:45:28.090
related error. One in 20. That's crazy. And right

01:45:28.090 --> 01:45:30.609
now, you know, there are well over 20 ,000 medical

01:45:30.609 --> 01:45:33.489
residents. So if you have 100 of them, five are

01:45:33.489 --> 01:45:35.689
going to kill people. Accidental deaths. Think

01:45:35.689 --> 01:45:38.289
about that number. That's insane. If we were

01:45:38.289 --> 01:45:40.489
to solve the sleep loss epidemic in medicine,

01:45:40.649 --> 01:45:43.029
you know, we could start saving lives. And I

01:45:43.029 --> 01:45:45.170
don't know what it is. Is it just a, you know,

01:45:45.170 --> 01:45:47.310
an old boys network where we said, well, we went

01:45:47.310 --> 01:45:49.050
through it. Yes. So you've got to go through

01:45:49.050 --> 01:45:52.689
it. You know, and the data now is so. prolific.

01:45:52.689 --> 01:45:54.770
You know, I write all about that and try to make

01:45:54.770 --> 01:45:58.250
a build an evidence based, you know, emotionless

01:45:58.250 --> 01:46:02.270
cold case for sleep in medicine, a sleep prescription

01:46:02.270 --> 01:46:04.609
for medicine, as it were. Well, most people don't

01:46:04.609 --> 01:46:06.890
realize the requirements that residents have.

01:46:07.069 --> 01:46:11.500
No. And they are they are literally. you know,

01:46:11.520 --> 01:46:15.039
beyond human capacity. Thinking that, you know,

01:46:15.039 --> 01:46:19.000
hubris and some degree of hours on the job is

01:46:19.000 --> 01:46:21.220
going to be able to allow you to sort of, you

01:46:21.220 --> 01:46:25.640
know, cut short what took three and a half million

01:46:25.640 --> 01:46:28.279
years to sort of, you know, get in place, which

01:46:28.279 --> 01:46:30.460
is an eight hour night of sleep. That's just

01:46:30.460 --> 01:46:32.579
thick headed. You know, it's, and I think the

01:46:32.579 --> 01:46:34.800
medical profession may be at the stage where

01:46:34.800 --> 01:46:37.199
it's, my mind is made up. Don't confuse me with

01:46:37.199 --> 01:46:43.090
the facts. Wow. This is blowing me away. I just

01:46:43.090 --> 01:46:46.550
don't understand how the very people that are

01:46:46.550 --> 01:46:50.149
working on the health of patients and fixing

01:46:50.149 --> 01:46:54.409
them and repairing injuries and taking care of

01:46:54.409 --> 01:46:57.149
diseases, those are the people that are ignoring

01:46:57.149 --> 01:47:00.109
one of the primary factors of disease and errors

01:47:00.109 --> 01:47:04.100
and cognitive function. It's impairment. It's

01:47:04.100 --> 01:47:06.380
a travesty. I have a friend who's an ophthalmologist

01:47:06.380 --> 01:47:08.300
and he tells a story about during his residency.

01:47:08.399 --> 01:47:12.340
He was back in the 80s and he had a pager. He

01:47:12.340 --> 01:47:15.800
was on the toilet with a tray of food on his

01:47:15.800 --> 01:47:18.180
lap because he didn't have time to eat and go

01:47:18.180 --> 01:47:21.260
to the bathroom. So he's eating food and he fell

01:47:21.260 --> 01:47:24.260
asleep. And then his pager went off. He's like,

01:47:24.300 --> 01:47:29.479
fuck my life. I mean, how many warning bells

01:47:29.479 --> 01:47:32.359
do you need to tell you that you're in a deleterious

01:47:32.359 --> 01:47:34.600
state? If you're falling asleep with your trousers

01:47:34.600 --> 01:47:37.020
around your ankles, with food all over your face,

01:47:37.119 --> 01:47:39.340
and yet you're in the deepest stages of non -REM

01:47:39.340 --> 01:47:41.380
sleep. And he's the guy who's working on people's

01:47:41.380 --> 01:47:45.920
eyes. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. And it's, you know,

01:47:45.920 --> 01:47:49.159
sleep is equally absent for the patient in the

01:47:49.159 --> 01:47:58.300
hospital, you know, setting. ICU alarms are either

01:47:58.300 --> 01:48:02.199
unnecessary or ignorable. And the one place where

01:48:02.199 --> 01:48:04.939
you desperately need the Swiss army knife of

01:48:04.939 --> 01:48:07.560
health that is a good night of sleep is the one

01:48:07.560 --> 01:48:09.840
place where you get at least, which is on a hospital

01:48:09.840 --> 01:48:13.239
ward. We could exit people out of hospital beds

01:48:13.239 --> 01:48:15.720
earlier. The data is already there for the neonatal

01:48:15.720 --> 01:48:18.159
intensive care unit. They used to leave bright

01:48:18.159 --> 01:48:22.630
lights on 24 -7. And that would prevent sort

01:48:22.630 --> 01:48:25.090
of the signaling for sleep and wake and sleep

01:48:25.090 --> 01:48:27.430
and wake. And that cycle is critical. If you

01:48:27.430 --> 01:48:30.569
regularize sleep, sorry, if you regularize light

01:48:30.569 --> 01:48:34.090
in the neonatal intensive care unit, those infants

01:48:34.090 --> 01:48:36.829
ended up having higher levels of oxygen saturation

01:48:36.829 --> 01:48:39.130
because they were sleeping better. Their weight

01:48:39.130 --> 01:48:41.369
gain was dramatically increased and they ended

01:48:41.369 --> 01:48:44.069
up exiting the neonatal intensive care unit five

01:48:44.069 --> 01:48:48.180
weeks earlier. Whoa. Simple things. You know,

01:48:48.199 --> 01:48:50.739
why don't we do something like this in medicine?

01:48:50.819 --> 01:48:53.899
When you come in onto a hospital ward, you get

01:48:53.899 --> 01:48:56.319
this on an international flight travel for free.

01:48:56.840 --> 01:49:00.220
Earplugs, face mask. Even just that by itself

01:49:00.220 --> 01:49:02.479
could help people to start get better sleep.

01:49:02.760 --> 01:49:05.220
Next, on the hospital admission form, tell me

01:49:05.220 --> 01:49:07.060
when you normally go to sleep and when you normally

01:49:07.060 --> 01:49:09.460
wake up. And to the best of our ability, we as

01:49:09.460 --> 01:49:13.289
doctors will try to sort of. you know, manage

01:49:13.289 --> 01:49:16.170
your health care around your natural sleep tendencies.

01:49:16.390 --> 01:49:21.050
If we could do that, you know, sleep is the elixir

01:49:21.050 --> 01:49:24.670
of life. It is the most widely available, democratic

01:49:24.670 --> 01:49:27.810
and powerful health care system I could ever

01:49:27.810 --> 01:49:30.750
possibly imagine. Why aren't we leveraging that

01:49:30.750 --> 01:49:32.670
and taking it? That's one of the greatest hacks

01:49:32.670 --> 01:49:35.590
that medicine could actually, you know, inflect.

01:49:35.590 --> 01:49:38.659
That is stunning. How is this being received

01:49:38.659 --> 01:49:41.939
by doctors? Are they reluctant to listen to you?

01:49:42.060 --> 01:49:44.439
I mean, what is happening with all this data

01:49:44.439 --> 01:49:48.779
and your passionate cry for extra sleep or more

01:49:48.779 --> 01:49:51.260
sleep or the proper sleep, I should say? It's

01:49:51.260 --> 01:49:54.439
starting to happen. I mean, when the book came

01:49:54.439 --> 01:49:56.039
out, which was sort of the hardback came back

01:49:56.039 --> 01:50:00.020
out back in October. Some people started to give

01:50:00.020 --> 01:50:03.319
pushbacks sort of in the medicine realm. You

01:50:03.319 --> 01:50:05.500
know, there was some concerns about continuity

01:50:05.500 --> 01:50:07.539
of care, that if you keep switching residents

01:50:07.539 --> 01:50:10.939
out every 16 hours, that you wouldn't have continuous

01:50:10.939 --> 01:50:14.159
patient care. And that was a problem. Well, there

01:50:14.159 --> 01:50:16.960
are other medical training systems, for example,

01:50:16.979 --> 01:50:19.880
France, Sweden, New Zealand. They do this all

01:50:19.880 --> 01:50:23.720
the time. do not allow their residents to undergo

01:50:23.720 --> 01:50:26.600
anything longer than either a 14 or a 16 -hour

01:50:26.600 --> 01:50:29.659
shift. They train their residents in the same

01:50:29.659 --> 01:50:31.880
amount of time or less. And if you look at the

01:50:31.880 --> 01:50:34.479
rankings of their medical health systems around

01:50:34.479 --> 01:50:37.000
the world, they rank far higher than the United

01:50:37.000 --> 01:50:40.899
States. So you can't tell me that longer work

01:50:40.899 --> 01:50:43.699
hours for residents, for example, are necessary

01:50:43.699 --> 01:50:46.720
to train good doctors. The evidence just isn't

01:50:46.720 --> 01:50:48.380
supportive. So I've had some pushback there.

01:50:49.159 --> 01:50:51.520
But for the most part, I think people are receptive

01:50:51.520 --> 01:50:54.260
once they know the information. And I think I'm

01:50:54.260 --> 01:50:56.859
the I've been the someone who's been to blame

01:50:56.859 --> 01:50:59.939
here. I've known this evidence for, you know,

01:50:59.960 --> 01:51:02.100
I've been doing sleep research now for 20 or

01:51:02.100 --> 01:51:05.460
so years. We are with sleep where we were with

01:51:05.460 --> 01:51:08.380
smoking 50 years ago. We had all of the evidence

01:51:08.380 --> 01:51:10.460
about the deathly carcinogenic cardiovascular

01:51:10.460 --> 01:51:13.720
disease issues. But the public had not been.

01:51:14.410 --> 01:51:17.350
No one had adequately communicated the science

01:51:17.350 --> 01:51:20.949
of, you know, smoking to the public. The same,

01:51:20.970 --> 01:51:22.750
I think, is true for sleep right now. That's

01:51:22.750 --> 01:51:25.489
part of the motivation for why I wrote the book,

01:51:25.609 --> 01:51:27.510
why I've been doing or trying to do a lot of

01:51:27.510 --> 01:51:30.350
publicity. I'm a very shy person. I don't like

01:51:30.350 --> 01:51:33.039
being in the spotlight. I feel as though there

01:51:33.039 --> 01:51:35.739
is a mission that whose voice has not been actually

01:51:35.739 --> 01:51:38.380
gifted yet. And I wanted to try and help and

01:51:38.380 --> 01:51:40.300
be a sort of a sleep diplomat. I mean, that's

01:51:40.300 --> 01:51:42.340
why I chose the handle on social media, trying

01:51:42.340 --> 01:51:45.520
to be there as an ambassador for sleep. And now

01:51:45.520 --> 01:51:47.699
once people start to understand the sciences

01:51:47.699 --> 01:51:50.460
we've spoken about for two hours, then people

01:51:50.460 --> 01:51:53.000
start to actually realize it's not the third

01:51:53.000 --> 01:51:55.260
pillar of good health alongside diet and exercise.

01:51:55.460 --> 01:51:57.800
It's the foundation on which those two other

01:51:57.800 --> 01:52:00.420
things sit. You know, for example, if you're

01:52:00.420 --> 01:52:03.159
dieting. But you're not getting sufficient sleep.

01:52:03.479 --> 01:52:06.159
70 % of all the weight that you lose will come

01:52:06.159 --> 01:52:09.739
from lean body mass, muscle, and not fat. Your

01:52:09.739 --> 01:52:13.100
body becomes stingy in giving up its fat when

01:52:13.100 --> 01:52:16.300
it's underslept. So once you get this information

01:52:16.300 --> 01:52:18.600
out there, things are starting to change. I've

01:52:18.600 --> 01:52:20.840
started to have some discussions with the World

01:52:20.840 --> 01:52:23.159
Health Organization. They seem to be very interested

01:52:23.159 --> 01:52:27.140
now in getting to grips with sleep. I'd love

01:52:27.140 --> 01:52:28.920
to speak to first world governments, though.

01:52:29.020 --> 01:52:31.640
When was the last time you saw any first world

01:52:31.640 --> 01:52:34.760
nation have a government supported public health

01:52:34.760 --> 01:52:38.680
campaign around sleep? I don't know any. We've

01:52:38.680 --> 01:52:41.539
had them for, you know, drink driving, for risky

01:52:41.539 --> 01:52:44.079
behaviors, you know, for drugs, for alcohol,

01:52:44.180 --> 01:52:47.699
for healthy eating. Sleep should be a part of

01:52:47.699 --> 01:52:50.500
that equation. You know, I want to lobby governments

01:52:50.500 --> 01:52:53.180
to start to instigate this, and it will save

01:52:53.180 --> 01:52:55.119
them millions of dollars. The Rand Corporation

01:52:55.119 --> 01:52:58.300
did an independent survey two years ago on the

01:52:58.300 --> 01:53:00.880
demonstrable cost of a lack of sleep to global

01:53:00.880 --> 01:53:03.239
economies. What they found was that a lack of

01:53:03.239 --> 01:53:06.340
sleep costs most nations about 2 % of their GDP,

01:53:06.619 --> 01:53:09.039
their gross domestic product. Here in America,

01:53:09.119 --> 01:53:13.439
that number was $411 billion caused by insufficient

01:53:13.439 --> 01:53:16.229
sleep. Solve the sleepless epidemic. You could

01:53:16.229 --> 01:53:18.529
almost double the budget for education and you

01:53:18.529 --> 01:53:20.409
could almost halve the deficit for health care.

01:53:22.289 --> 01:53:26.729
Wow. What studies, if any, have been done on

01:53:26.729 --> 01:53:29.689
people who live in the northern hemisphere where

01:53:29.689 --> 01:53:33.090
they experience these long days like Alaska and

01:53:33.090 --> 01:53:35.939
Siberia, places like that? It's really tough

01:53:35.939 --> 01:53:38.359
for the regulation of the circadian rhythm. A

01:53:38.359 --> 01:53:40.779
lot of people, they're not all, but a lot of

01:53:40.779 --> 01:53:43.579
people will suffer from what's called seasonal

01:53:43.579 --> 01:53:45.800
affective disorder, which is the winter blues.

01:53:46.239 --> 01:53:49.760
And it's an unfortunate acronym, you know, SAD.

01:53:49.960 --> 01:53:51.899
Your doctor comes along, you say, look, I'm not

01:53:51.899 --> 01:53:53.699
feeling good. It's the wintertime. Well, you're

01:53:53.699 --> 01:53:57.539
sad. No, I'm sorry. It's a medical term. It's

01:53:57.539 --> 01:54:00.199
called SAD. It's called seasonal affective disorder.

01:54:00.460 --> 01:54:03.560
And that data is quite powerful too. And you

01:54:03.560 --> 01:54:05.479
end up having to use melatonin strategically

01:54:05.479 --> 01:54:09.159
to help you fall asleep, to sort of signal darkness

01:54:09.159 --> 01:54:12.199
in the summertime when it's really light, almost

01:54:12.199 --> 01:54:15.279
all day. And then in the wintertime, you reverse.

01:54:15.529 --> 01:54:18.229
engineer the trick and in the morning you sit

01:54:18.229 --> 01:54:19.569
and you have your breakfast or you're working

01:54:19.569 --> 01:54:21.310
at your terminal and you have one of these big

01:54:21.310 --> 01:54:24.310
light boxes that sits next to you strong lux

01:54:24.310 --> 01:54:27.590
power light to try and sort of fool your brain

01:54:27.590 --> 01:54:29.789
into thinking that you're getting a lot of daylight

01:54:29.789 --> 01:54:31.890
when it's you know it's not going to be light

01:54:31.890 --> 01:54:34.069
for the next four hours so they have to undergo

01:54:34.069 --> 01:54:37.050
treatment do they have to do vitamin d supplementation

01:54:37.050 --> 01:54:39.310
as well some of that too yeah because of lack

01:54:39.310 --> 01:54:43.029
of exposure for the skin to uv light Listen,

01:54:43.130 --> 01:54:45.890
man, I think you just opened up a lot of people's

01:54:45.890 --> 01:54:48.989
minds. You certainly did mine. I mean, this podcast

01:54:48.989 --> 01:54:52.210
blew me away. I thought I knew a little bit about

01:54:52.210 --> 01:54:56.289
sleep. I knew nothing. Thank you so much. You're

01:54:56.289 --> 01:54:59.270
so very welcome. Tell people how they could read

01:54:59.270 --> 01:55:01.390
your book. Where can they get it? What's your

01:55:01.390 --> 01:55:04.750
website? Yes, so I'm all over the social media

01:55:04.750 --> 01:55:09.579
and the web pages by sleepdiplomat .com. And

01:55:09.579 --> 01:55:13.680
the book is called Why We Sleep. And it is out

01:55:13.680 --> 01:55:16.920
now on Amazon and all major booksellers. And

01:55:16.920 --> 01:55:18.960
that's probably the best way that they can learn

01:55:18.960 --> 01:55:20.920
all about sleep and frightening the living daylights

01:55:20.920 --> 01:55:23.039
out of them. Thank you so much, Matt. I really,

01:55:23.119 --> 01:55:24.560
really appreciate it. You're very welcome, Joe.

01:55:24.600 --> 01:55:26.779
Sleep well. Thank you. You too. Thanks.