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Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1769. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Clinical Psychology, Value Systems Analysis, and the Psychology of Individual Sovereignty
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan

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Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by

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night, all day. That state of intense concentration

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on that before you can really manage it. I think

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there's mental endurance involved too, because

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I think that, are we up? I think there's mental

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endurance that comes with anything that you do

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on a day -to -day basis, whether it's writing.

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whether it's doing podcasts, whether it's doing

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stand -up comedy. I think anything we have to

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think and manage. like complex ideas and manipulate

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your language and your, the way you're speaking

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and, and be able to engage in the dance between

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two people. I think you got to do it all the

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time. I think if you just do it every now and

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again, like, especially like if you took time

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off of speaking to people, like if you hadn't

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talked to anybody in a long time and then you

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talk, have you ever done that? We haven't talked

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to anybody in a long time. Then you talk to them.

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It feels odd. It feels awkward. Cause I think

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there's like a thing where you have to get used

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to it. You've got to get used to it. Yeah, I

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found that was particularly the case with the

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podcasts is that it's hard to do that sporadically.

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Yeah. You also lose that rhythm of preparation

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because you get it. Well, I did. I'm not sure.

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How do you prepare for your podcast? Like if

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you have an author, come on. I usually read their

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book. When? I have two books that I'm reading

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right now that are future people that are coming

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in February. So they're a lot ahead. Yeah. Well,

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you know, it's like one of them is a climate

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change book and it's intense. And so it's requiring

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a lot of thinking. And then I have to like look

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at the criticisms of this guy and criticisms

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of the work. And, you know, you know, who believes

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that in 10 years Miami is going to be underwater?

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Who believes that this is probably hyperbole

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and that it's a gross exaggeration? And the reality

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is, you know, the world sort of always goes through

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these cycles of change. But human beings are

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definitely having an effect on it. But a small

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effect compared to. cows and other other things

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it's like it's hard to sort out the climate change

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one is a weird one so that well that's because

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there's no such thing as climate right climate

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and everything are the same word and i that's

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what bothers me about the climate change types

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it's like this is something that bothers me about

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it technically it's like climate is about everything

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so okay but your models aren't based on everything

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your models are based on A set number of variables.

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Yeah. So that means you've reduced the variables,

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which are everything, to that set. Well, how

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did you decide which set of variables to include

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in the equation if it's about everything? And

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that's not just a criticism. That's like, if

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it's about everything, your models aren't right.

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Because your models... Do not and cannot model

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everything. What do you mean by everything when

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you say... Well, that's what people who talk

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about the climate apocalypse claim in some sense.

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We have to change everything. It's like everything,

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eh? Okay, what... And the same with the word

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environment. That word doesn't mean... It means

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so much that it actually doesn't mean anything.

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Like when you say everything, in a sense, that's

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meaningless, right? Because... Well, what are

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you pointing to? Well, I'm pointing to everything.

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Well, what's the difference between the environment

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and everything? There's no difference. What's

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the difference between climate and everything?

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Well, there's no difference. So this is a crisis

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of everything? It's like, no, it's not. Or if

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it is, well, if it really is, then we're done

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because we can't fix everything. Well, specifically,

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what they mean specifically is the human, what

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human beings are doing. that's causing the Earth

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to warm. Right, right. But you have to include

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all these factors in the models to determine

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that. All these factors. Well, what can you not

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include? Well, then, by deciding what you don't

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include, you decide which set of variables are

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cardinal. And you have to make that decision

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in some sense before you even generate the models.

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This is a big problem. It's partly... It's not

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the only reason, but this... There's another

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reason that another... problem that bedevils

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climate modeling too, which is that as you stretch

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out the models across time, the errors increase

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radically. And so maybe you can predict out a

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week or three weeks or a month or a year, but

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the farther out you predict, the more your model's

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in error. And that's a huge problem when you're

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trying to model over 100 years, because the errors

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compound just like interest. And so at some point,

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it's all error. In fact, it's already the case

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that even if the climate models are right, the

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error bars are so wide by 100 years out that

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we'll never be able to measure the effects of

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the changes we're making now. We'll never know

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if the changes we're making to save the climate

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actually worked. We can't measure it. The errors

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are too large 100 years out. What do you mean

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by the errors? Like what errors? Well, prediction

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errors. So look, imagine that you're going to

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predict how your life goes. Okay. Well, you can

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kind of do that. you kind of know that tomorrow

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is going to be somewhat like today. Okay, but

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how much is next year's day going to be like

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today? Well, somewhat, but less certainly, because

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you might get sick, for example, and then over

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a five -year period, well, there's much more

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that has to be accounted for, and so the probability

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that your prediction is correct decreases as

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you move forward in time. That's why we discount

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the future. So if you ask people, you want $5

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now or do you want $5 in a month? They're going

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to say, well, I want $5 now. Well, you think,

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well, why is that? Well, if I have it now, it's

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certain. A month, well, there's a lag in there

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and anything could happen. And you can play games

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with people this way because people differ in

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the degree to which they discount the future

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because how seriously to take the future is actually...

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a near computationally impossible task to solve.

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How seriously should I take the future? Well,

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it depends on how uncertain things are. How uncertain

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things are, are they? Well, I don't know. Classic

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example. There's a chicken. And the farmer goes

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out every day and feeds the chicken. And the

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chicken thinks, man, I've got a good friend in

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this farmer. And then one day it's dinner time.

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And the chicken's the main course. Right? And

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so the poor chicken used induction to derive

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certainty. The farmer comes every day. He didn't

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realize there was a massive flaw in his theory.

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And one day that flaw reveals itself and everything

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falls apart. Well, that makes sense when you're

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talking about chickens and farmers. But when

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you're talking about human beings and CO2...

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Well, we could play a future discounting game.

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So this is how this sort of thing is calculated,

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this discount curve. So I could say... I'll give

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you $5 an hour, $5 in a week. Which one do you

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want? And people say $5 in a week. Then I say,

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okay, I'll give you $5 an hour. I'll give you

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$10 in a month. It's like, hmm, okay. $10 in

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a month. Okay, I'll give you $5 an hour. I'll

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give you $750 in two weeks. Or I'll give you

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$50 an hour. I'll give you $500 in 10 years.

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And so imagine you do that. with all sorts of

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amounts, over all sorts of time frames, then

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you can compute a discount curve, which is how

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much people devalue the amount a dollar is worth

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as it progresses out into the future. And what

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you generally find is that impulsive people discount

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the future more heavily. That's actually the

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definition of impulsive. And you might think,

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well, the impulsive people are wrong. It's like

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the ant and the grasshopper. You know, the grasshopper

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is fiddling all summer and then he starves to

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death in the winter and the good old ant who

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packed away the supplies, he's doing fine in

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the winter. He sacrificed the present to the

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future and isn't that sensible? Yeah, it's sensible.

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You should save. Except, well, what if it's 1920

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in Germany, 1923, let's say, and you're in a

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period of hyperinflation? It's like grasshopper

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one. Because he spent all his money before it

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became worthless. So should you save or not?

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The answer is, it depends. And then there's a

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further answer, which is, it depends on things

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that you actually can't predict. And so it's

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actually a computationally impossible problem

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to figure out how much to discount the future.

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It's actually impossible, which is why we vary

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so much in it. Part of that reason is... The

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magnitude of our prediction error increases the

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farther out we predict. Yeah, but the grasshopper

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and the ant analogy doesn't work because they're

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based on food. And the food that the ant supplied

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and stored and stocked away is still good. Inflation

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doesn't mean jack shit to an ant. Because they

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don't deal with currency. Well, the other way

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an ant could follow up is... But you know what

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I'm saying? Well, fair enough. But, I mean, ant

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colonies also have wars. And so it's just as

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possible that the ant will store up all this

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food and another ant colony will move in and

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that'll be the end of that. And this is a huge

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problem. Well, you're very unlikely to be robbed

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and pillaged unless you have wealth. Right. And

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so the ability to store wealth across time...

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To decrease the risk of the catastrophes of future,

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that's the problem in some sense that civilization

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set out to solve. How can we stabilize things

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over a long term enough to make long term investing

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a reasonable proposition? Here's a positive spin

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off of that. I worked on the UN committee that

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wrote the Secretary General's report on sustainable

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development. I worked on the Canadian subcommittee,

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to be technically accurate. And I was by no means

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the head of that. I worked with the team that

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worked on that. But we edited and wrote and rewrote

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a fair bit of the document. And so I did a lot

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of work in the background, learning what I needed

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to learn to work on that committee with some

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degree of, what would you say? I read maybe 200

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books on ecological development and economic

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development, the relationship between the two.

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200 books? Oh, yeah, yeah. I was over about a

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two -year period. And a lot of it was on oceanic

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management, because I did realize that one thing

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we're doing that's extraordinarily stupid on

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the ecological front is... destroying all the

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marine life within 40 miles of the shores. And

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all the marine life is within 40 miles of the

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shores. Like you think, the oceans, they're vast.

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It's like, yeah, but they're empty. Except for

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where the sun can shine to the bottom, and that's

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the 40 to 200 miles, say, on the coastal shelves.

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And we've trawled those bare like seven times.

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Isn't that wild? It's a catastrophe. But that

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was the only real environmental catastrophe.

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that I encountered in all that work that I thought

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was both credible and addressable. We know how

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to fix that. You make marine protected areas

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like national parks that you need about 15 %

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of the total coastal territory really protected.

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And that solves that problem, essentially. And

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then everybody has fish because the fish, they

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don't just stay there. They move around. You

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can have your cake and eat it too with marine

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protected areas. But mostly what I learned, and

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this was really cool, was that this was so cool.

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And I really believe it's true. The fastest way

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to make the planet sustainably green and ecologically

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viable is to make poor people as rich as possible

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as fast as we possibly can. Because the thing

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about poor people is that, well, first of all,

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they live in... They're not resource efficient.

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They use a lot of resources to produce very,

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very little outcome. And so that's a problem.

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Slash and burn agriculture, for example. But

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even more importantly... When you're insecure

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on a day -to -day basis, you don't know where

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your next meal is coming from. You're not paying

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attention to the broader environment, that hated

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word, around you. And you can't even really worry

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about your children's future in some real sense

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because it's like, no, no, you don't understand.

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Lunch is the future. We don't have lunch. We're

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hungry. And that goes on for like a month. We're

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dead. That's the future. So what happens? if

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you can get resources to the poorest section

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of the population, as soon as they get to the

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point where they have some hope of a genuine

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future, especially for their children, they immediately

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become concerned about broader environmental

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considerations. And then the attempt to make

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the environment habitable and sustainable...

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That comes up of its own accord at a grassroots

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level and spreads everywhere. And evidence for

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that is clear. So this is one of the things that

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really bothered me about COP26. And that was

00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:12.419
based in part on this. What is that? That was

00:13:12.419 --> 00:13:15.960
the big climate meeting in the UK just a few

00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:17.659
months ago. You know, the one where all the COVID

00:13:17.659 --> 00:13:19.779
rules were suspended so the important people

00:13:19.779 --> 00:13:22.600
could talk about important things. In any case,

00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:27.000
I thought, if the politicians who were discussing...

00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:30.379
environmental sustainability, we're serious,

00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:34.360
especially the left -wing ones. And I say especially

00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:36.639
because the left -wing ones always say, well,

00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:39.120
we care about the poor and dispossessed. It's

00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.759
like, do you really? When push comes to shove,

00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:44.500
it's like, is it the environment or poor people?

00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:46.980
If your idea is that we have to limit growth

00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:50.279
to save the planet. If we limit growth, poor

00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:52.860
people starve. Because whenever we put limits

00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:56.139
on economic development, who suffers? The rich?

00:13:56.620 --> 00:13:59.519
Are you really? That's what you think? And you're

00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.440
on the left. You think if you put limits on economic

00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.000
development, the rich will suffer. That runs

00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.100
contrary to every theory that your whole political

00:14:07.100 --> 00:14:09.899
philosophy is based on. You put limits to growth

00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:13.000
on, the poor stay poor or get worse. Doesn't

00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:14.740
matter because the planet has too many people

00:14:14.740 --> 00:14:16.980
on it anyways, which it most certainly does not.

00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:20.830
If you are serious about the environment. and

00:14:20.830 --> 00:14:23.690
even vaguely concerned about poor people. All

00:14:23.690 --> 00:14:26.350
of your policies would be devoted to making the

00:14:26.350 --> 00:14:29.049
poor rich as fast as possible. But that would

00:14:29.049 --> 00:14:31.870
violate the anti -capitalist presumption, let's

00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:33.870
say, that the reason for environmental degradation

00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:37.230
in the first place is, say, entrepreneurial and

00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:39.610
free market development, which it most certainly

00:14:39.610 --> 00:14:41.610
isn't. That's actually completely backwards.

00:14:42.169 --> 00:14:44.629
Make poor people rich. So what should a COP26

00:14:44.629 --> 00:14:48.450
been about? That's fairly straightforward. It

00:14:48.450 --> 00:14:51.909
should have been about trying to generate as

00:14:51.909 --> 00:14:55.470
much energy as we possibly can to be distributed

00:14:55.470 --> 00:14:58.490
as widely as possible in the cheapest possible

00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:02.909
manner. And what would that be, nuclear? Well,

00:15:03.110 --> 00:15:06.009
I would say ultimately, likely nuclear, and probably

00:15:06.009 --> 00:15:09.850
not fusion, because fusion has always been a

00:15:09.850 --> 00:15:12.990
year away, 10 years away for the last 50 years.

00:15:13.090 --> 00:15:18.370
We haven't managed it. Nuclear, likely. France

00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:20.730
managed that very effectively. We can do it.

00:15:20.889 --> 00:15:23.649
And we still have a weird idea of nuclear because

00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:26.730
of the several, you know, whether it's Three

00:15:26.730 --> 00:15:30.230
Mile Island, Chernobyl, there's been a few disasters.

00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:33.370
More people die every year from solar energy

00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:38.129
than die from nuclear. Who dies from solar? Guess

00:15:38.129 --> 00:15:42.029
how you die from solar? Sunburn? No. You fall

00:15:42.029 --> 00:15:44.230
off the roofs when you're installing it. Oh.

00:15:44.549 --> 00:15:47.370
Yeah. That's gravity, right? Yeah, gravity. Gravity.

00:15:47.429 --> 00:15:49.690
And, you know, that's a good example of unintended

00:15:49.690 --> 00:15:53.429
consequences. Because systems are complex, and

00:15:53.429 --> 00:15:55.070
when you change them, you think only good things

00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:57.730
will happen. It's like, well, you know. Oh, so

00:15:57.730 --> 00:15:59.669
I was going to, you asked about energy. Yeah.

00:15:59.730 --> 00:16:02.990
There's also an environmental progression towards

00:16:02.990 --> 00:16:06.309
clean energy. Yeah. And so the poorest people

00:16:06.309 --> 00:16:09.200
burn wood. Well, that's not so good because,

00:16:09.259 --> 00:16:11.240
first of all, they cut down the trees and burn

00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:14.480
the trees. And second, if you're concerned about

00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:16.580
pollution, especially particulate pollution,

00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:19.779
especially indoors, which kills, I think, 7 million

00:16:19.779 --> 00:16:24.720
children a year. 7 million children a year are

00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.919
killed by indoor particulate pollution. What?

00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.870
Yeah, yeah, yeah. How is that possible? 7 million?

00:16:32.070 --> 00:16:34.149
Yeah. Indoor particulate pollution, meaning from

00:16:34.149 --> 00:16:37.110
starting fires in homes, like to keep warm? Yeah,

00:16:37.110 --> 00:16:39.590
without good ventilation systems. Yes, exactly.

00:16:39.809 --> 00:16:42.090
These people are poor. Is that a real number?

00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:43.230
Can you look that up? Yes, that's a real number.

00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:44.909
I need to know that that's a real number. That

00:16:44.909 --> 00:16:46.370
seems insane. That's good. We should double check

00:16:46.370 --> 00:16:50.049
it. 7 million children die every year from indoor

00:16:50.049 --> 00:16:53.009
particulate pollution. Yeah. And so you want

00:16:53.009 --> 00:16:56.169
to burn wood. Well, charcoal's better. Coal's

00:16:56.169 --> 00:16:58.620
better than that. in terms of pollution as well.

00:16:58.779 --> 00:17:01.600
And then fossil fuels are better than coal. And

00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:04.160
then natural gas is perhaps the cleanest of the

00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.180
fossil fuels. And maybe, I don't know if you

00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:08.019
know this, but this is also, this is so funny

00:17:08.019 --> 00:17:12.099
too. The United States has cut its carbon emissions

00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:15.319
15 % in the last 20 years. It's gone down, not

00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:21.140
up, down. Why? Fracking. Fracking. Yeah, fracking.

00:17:21.609 --> 00:17:23.789
This thing that environmentalists hate. It's

00:17:23.789 --> 00:17:25.869
like, don't frack. But it's a double -edged sword,

00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:28.410
right? Because fracking has definitely polluted

00:17:28.410 --> 00:17:32.829
some water supplies. Not really. No? It hasn't

00:17:32.829 --> 00:17:35.549
polluted any water supplies? Look. Did you ever

00:17:35.549 --> 00:17:39.400
see that? Everything pollutes something. So the

00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:41.680
idea that there's any source of energy that we

00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.140
can derive that's not going to produce some pollutant

00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:46.359
as a consequence, that's the kind of nonsense

00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:48.339
you hear from people who say things like net

00:17:48.339 --> 00:17:51.200
zero. We're going to hit net zero by 2050. Right,

00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:53.759
but fracking does have issues. Okay, more than

00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.660
90 % of the world's children breathe toxic air

00:17:56.660 --> 00:17:58.660
every day. Yeah, how many of them, Joe? How many?

00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.480
93 % of the world's children under the age of

00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:06.539
15 years, 1 .8 billion children. But this is

00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:09.380
about polluted air. I don't think this is necessarily

00:18:09.380 --> 00:18:12.640
about indoor particulate pollution. But that's

00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.259
all indoor. Okay, it says World Health Organization

00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:17.460
estimates that. Sorry, it's 600 ,000, so I must

00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:19.339
have been citing figures over a decade. There

00:18:19.339 --> 00:18:21.799
is a part on here that says it lowers the life

00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:24.539
expectancy of up to 7 million people per year,

00:18:24.619 --> 00:18:28.049
but it doesn't say they all die. Oh, okay. Thank

00:18:28.049 --> 00:18:30.529
you for clarifying that. They're talking about

00:18:30.529 --> 00:18:32.589
what, though? They're talking about pollution,

00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:35.609
right? Air pollution? The second line there.

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:37.569
Together, household air pollution from cooking

00:18:37.569 --> 00:18:39.809
and ambient air pollution causes more than 50

00:18:39.809 --> 00:18:41.410
% of acute... But that's both things. Yeah, but

00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:44.369
it's still almost all of the inside. Yeah, but

00:18:44.369 --> 00:18:45.809
the outside air pollution is trivial. Let's just

00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:47.430
read it so that people understand what we're

00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:49.430
saying, because we can read this. Together, household

00:18:49.430 --> 00:18:51.670
air pollution from cooking and ambient outside

00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:55.369
air pollution cause more than 50 % of acute lower...

00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:57.190
respiratory infections in children under five

00:18:57.190 --> 00:18:59.730
years of age in low - and middle -income countries.

00:18:59.829 --> 00:19:01.609
Right, and read the next one, too. Air pollution

00:19:01.609 --> 00:19:03.509
is one of the leading threats to child health,

00:19:03.549 --> 00:19:05.950
accounting for almost one in ten deaths in children

00:19:05.950 --> 00:19:08.470
under five years of age. That's fucking wild.

00:19:08.750 --> 00:19:10.750
Well, it's just poor children, and the world

00:19:10.750 --> 00:19:13.730
has too many people on it anyway. But you say

00:19:13.730 --> 00:19:16.289
that, you're being facetious. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:19.390
I still want to, like, we've kind of, like, you

00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:21.549
went on these rants, so I want to, like, bring

00:19:21.549 --> 00:19:24.799
you back. to this idea of climate and environment.

00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.880
We should be concerned not just about particulate

00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:30.759
pollution, but shouldn't we be concerned about

00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.099
the effect that we're having on the CO2 that

00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:35.099
we're releasing in the atmosphere? Now, from

00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.740
what I've read, it has an impact. They don't

00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:41.000
exactly know what percentage of an impact it

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:42.700
has, but it's most certainly something that we

00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:45.880
can reduce. Well, that's not so certain. What

00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.569
I've also read... One of the problems is when

00:19:48.569 --> 00:19:51.190
people start talking about electric cars, is

00:19:51.190 --> 00:19:54.690
that it's literally impossible. There's not enough

00:19:54.690 --> 00:19:58.269
minerals. These conflict minerals they use for

00:19:58.269 --> 00:20:00.829
these batteries, there's not enough to give a

00:20:00.829 --> 00:20:03.609
car. As many cars as we have in this country,

00:20:03.710 --> 00:20:05.329
as many cars as there are in the world that are

00:20:05.329 --> 00:20:07.630
mostly internal combustion engines, if we replace

00:20:07.630 --> 00:20:10.490
those with battery -powered cars, I don't think

00:20:10.490 --> 00:20:12.210
that's possible. Well, where are we going to

00:20:12.210 --> 00:20:14.849
get the electricity? Well, there's that. Well,

00:20:14.890 --> 00:20:17.049
yeah, that's a big problem. Yeah, fair enough.

00:20:17.210 --> 00:20:20.069
But even if we did get the electricity from nuclear,

00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:23.390
which, by the way, is fairly clean, it's all

00:20:23.390 --> 00:20:25.650
in whether or not there's a disaster and whether

00:20:25.650 --> 00:20:28.069
or not they have these precautionary measures

00:20:28.069 --> 00:20:33.470
set in place to have systems that will be able

00:20:33.470 --> 00:20:36.269
to shut down the core when there is a disaster.

00:20:36.430 --> 00:20:39.369
Fukushima didn't, right? And those were large

00:20:39.369 --> 00:20:41.549
scale reactors and they have small scale reactors

00:20:41.549 --> 00:20:43.910
now, thorium salt reactors that are small and

00:20:43.910 --> 00:20:46.450
modular in some sense. And when those sorts of

00:20:46.450 --> 00:20:47.950
things happen, they shut down by themselves.

00:20:47.990 --> 00:20:50.710
But we should talk about it because those Fukushima

00:20:50.710 --> 00:20:54.609
when I mean, OK, let's look this up. When was

00:20:54.609 --> 00:20:57.650
Fukushima first online? I want to say it was

00:20:57.650 --> 00:21:01.880
in the 1970s. Is that correct? Likely. That's

00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:03.339
when most of the nuclear development took place.

00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.019
I remember reading about it at the time and finding

00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:09.039
out that they couldn't shut it down. I was like,

00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:13.960
what? Okay, 67. Construction began 67, commission

00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:18.769
date 71. Okay, so yeah, so 70s essentially. Imagine

00:21:18.769 --> 00:21:23.069
getting a car from 1970 and expecting it to be

00:21:23.069 --> 00:21:25.670
compliant with whatever emission standards we

00:21:25.670 --> 00:21:28.329
have today. Or braking. You ever drive a car?

00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:32.289
I'm an enthusiast. I love old cars. But I take

00:21:32.289 --> 00:21:35.170
them and I bring them to these craftsmen and

00:21:35.170 --> 00:21:37.529
they put modern brakes on them. They put modern

00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:39.430
suspensions on them so you don't kill yourself

00:21:39.430 --> 00:21:42.349
driving them. But if you drive an old car, like

00:21:42.349 --> 00:21:45.309
if you get a 1970 Pontiac and you just try to

00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:47.730
drive it around, the brakes are fucking terrible.

00:21:48.950 --> 00:21:50.910
The steering is like you kind of have a rough

00:21:50.910 --> 00:21:53.390
estimate of where you're going. They're awful.

00:21:53.589 --> 00:21:58.789
You take a 2022 Chevrolet, like a Corvette, and

00:21:58.789 --> 00:22:01.769
drive that. My God, it's like telepathic. I know,

00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:04.049
I know. The acceleration is like time travel.

00:22:04.349 --> 00:22:07.150
New cars are so good. Oh my God, they're so good.

00:22:07.250 --> 00:22:10.390
Plus they have airbags. And the stereos are great.

00:22:10.450 --> 00:22:13.049
The old stereos in those 60s and 70s cars, it

00:22:13.049 --> 00:22:15.589
was like listening to the end of two tin cans

00:22:15.589 --> 00:22:17.930
with a string between them. Not just 60s and

00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:20.769
70s. You go into the 2000s. Everybody used to

00:22:20.769 --> 00:22:24.079
buy... aftermarket stereos. You used to get a

00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:26.279
car and then you'd bring it to a place and get

00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:28.059
a stereo place. Shout out to my friend Kenny

00:22:28.059 --> 00:22:31.200
Fong, Darkside Motors. I would bring my cars

00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:33.920
to Kenny and Kenny would hook me up with people

00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:36.640
that would do the stereo, fix the wheels and

00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:38.299
all kinds of stuff. You always had to do that.

00:22:38.420 --> 00:22:40.259
But then car manufacturers realized, why are

00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:42.140
we leaving all this money on the table? Let's

00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:45.099
just give them an option to have better stereos

00:22:45.099 --> 00:22:47.400
and better wheels and better suspension and all

00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.759
that jazz. So they fixed that. But my point is,

00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:55.359
Anything from 1971 sucks, including the nuclear

00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:58.299
power reactors. But if you get a nuclear reactor

00:22:58.299 --> 00:23:02.779
from 2022, you know, all that advancement in

00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:04.680
technology and innovation, you're going to have

00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.519
a far better system. Yeah, well, we're... See,

00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:10.460
part of the problem... I've been very curious

00:23:10.460 --> 00:23:13.299
about why the left -wing types, particularly,

00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.400
seem willing to sacrifice the poor to their utopian...

00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:19.410
I don't think they're thinking that way. I just

00:23:19.410 --> 00:23:21.029
don't think they played it all out. When push

00:23:21.029 --> 00:23:24.309
comes to shove, that's what they do. And it wouldn't

00:23:24.309 --> 00:23:26.509
take much thought to figure it out because let's

00:23:26.509 --> 00:23:30.589
say you increase the cost of energy and that's

00:23:30.589 --> 00:23:32.789
the price you pay to move forward to a hypothetically

00:23:32.789 --> 00:23:35.430
green economy. But you increase the price of

00:23:35.430 --> 00:23:38.529
energy. Okay, so what happens is that in any

00:23:38.529 --> 00:23:41.369
system that's hierarchical, and the left -wingers

00:23:41.369 --> 00:23:43.230
know this because it drives their whole philosophy,

00:23:43.349 --> 00:23:46.869
in any hierarchical system, when you stress the

00:23:46.869 --> 00:23:50.289
system, the disproportionate amount of that stress

00:23:50.289 --> 00:23:52.390
falls on the people who are in the lower rungs

00:23:52.390 --> 00:23:54.289
because they're barely hanging on anyway. So,

00:23:54.410 --> 00:23:57.410
you know, you get a 1 % increase in unemployment.

00:23:58.049 --> 00:24:01.410
You get a 5 % increase in psychiatric hospitalizations.

00:24:01.789 --> 00:24:04.210
Well, why? It's because there's a bunch of people

00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:06.170
there who are right on the threshold of psychiatric

00:24:06.170 --> 00:24:09.049
hospitalization, and then they lose their job.

00:24:09.509 --> 00:24:12.069
That's the end of that. So even among birds,

00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:14.710
even among birds that don't live in... strict

00:24:14.710 --> 00:24:17.450
hierarchy, so non -social birds, not ones that

00:24:17.450 --> 00:24:20.529
hang about in flocks like crows. The birds will

00:24:20.529 --> 00:24:23.650
move into an environment, any environment, and

00:24:23.650 --> 00:24:28.349
the more able, in some sense, healthier birds

00:24:28.349 --> 00:24:30.950
get the best nesting spots. They're closest to

00:24:30.950 --> 00:24:32.710
the food, they're sheltered from rain and wind

00:24:32.710 --> 00:24:35.269
and all of that, so they're not psychophysiologically

00:24:35.269 --> 00:24:38.940
stressed. And so then when any kind of avian

00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:42.480
flu comes through, let's say, to challenge the

00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.740
bird population, the birds die from the bottom

00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:48.759
up. That's the old saying, when the aristocracy

00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:51.140
gets a cold, the working class dies of pneumonia.

00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.000
It's like, okay, so fine, increase energy costs.

00:24:54.299 --> 00:24:56.720
Well, what happens? A bunch of poor people fall

00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.259
off the map, like a bunch of them. And the more

00:24:59.259 --> 00:25:00.940
you increase the energy costs, the more that

00:25:00.940 --> 00:25:04.430
happens. And so if the... The price we have to

00:25:04.430 --> 00:25:06.390
pay to move towards a sustainable environment

00:25:06.390 --> 00:25:09.490
is increased energy costs, and it isn't. That's

00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:11.309
a policy decision. It doesn't have to be that

00:25:11.309 --> 00:25:14.980
way. Absolutely 100 % inevitable consequence

00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:17.619
of that will be that you sacrifice the poor.

00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:21.319
Except the left, the real hardcore leftists,

00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:24.000
they want to implement socialism. And implementing

00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.400
socialism will solve a few of those problems.

00:25:26.579 --> 00:25:29.259
Yeah, well, that's part of the issue is that

00:25:29.259 --> 00:25:34.599
the pro -environment stance is contaminated by

00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.740
an anti -capitalist rhetoric. Now, the problem

00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:39.819
with the socialists, so let's take this apart

00:25:39.819 --> 00:25:44.549
a little bit. always point out something that's

00:25:44.549 --> 00:25:47.109
true. And Marx pointed this out. But it wasn't

00:25:47.109 --> 00:25:49.650
Marx's discovery. And he's like seriously wrong

00:25:49.650 --> 00:25:53.009
about it in an important way. So Marx observed

00:25:53.009 --> 00:25:57.210
that money tends to aggregate in the hands of

00:25:57.210 --> 00:26:00.069
fewer and fewer people. Okay, the first question

00:26:00.069 --> 00:26:04.690
is, is that true? And the answer is, not only

00:26:04.690 --> 00:26:09.339
is that true... It's so true that you can model

00:26:09.339 --> 00:26:12.480
the distribution of money in a population using

00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.319
equations derived from physics. Like it's really

00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.519
unbelievably true. But then Marx said, that's

00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:24.559
capitalism. That is not true. And it's actually

00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:26.720
an underestimation of the problem because...

00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:29.480
If the problem of inequality, which is an actual

00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.220
problem, was as simple as, let's change capitalism,

00:26:33.500 --> 00:26:35.819
well, yeah, let's change capitalism. Unfortunately,

00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:38.519
the problem is so deep that changing capitalism

00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:42.220
won't change the problem at all. And in fact,

00:26:42.220 --> 00:26:44.440
in most of the places where it's being attempted,

00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:47.519
especially the more radical forms of communism,

00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:49.480
let's say, rather than socialism, because we

00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:51.660
can distinguish the two, and should, it's important

00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:55.319
to do so, in countries that became communist,

00:26:56.430 --> 00:26:58.690
It wasn't like a small percentage of the people

00:26:58.690 --> 00:27:01.009
still didn't own all the resources. It's just

00:27:01.009 --> 00:27:03.089
that there were hardly any resources and almost

00:27:03.089 --> 00:27:05.730
everyone had nothing. There was still a tiny

00:27:05.730 --> 00:27:07.849
fraction of people who were the privileged elite.

00:27:08.309 --> 00:27:10.710
And so, you know, if you play Monopoly, what

00:27:10.710 --> 00:27:13.569
happens when you play Monopoly? Everybody starts

00:27:13.569 --> 00:27:16.970
out equal. Yeah, exactly. And so you can actually

00:27:16.970 --> 00:27:21.829
model this problem with something as simple as

00:27:21.829 --> 00:27:24.450
a Monopoly game. that's actually a fairly good

00:27:24.450 --> 00:27:26.410
model of how money distributes itself in the

00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:28.829
environment. And you can blame that on capitalism,

00:27:28.990 --> 00:27:31.509
but you can get the same, you can get exactly

00:27:31.509 --> 00:27:33.829
the same result if you have people trade because

00:27:33.829 --> 00:27:35.670
they flip a dice. So if you took 100 people,

00:27:35.769 --> 00:27:38.309
let's say give 100 people $10 each, and then

00:27:38.309 --> 00:27:41.150
they had to trade with each other. If I, you

00:27:41.150 --> 00:27:44.509
flip a coin and I flip a coin, and if it's, we

00:27:44.509 --> 00:27:46.289
flip a coin, if it's heads, you get a dollar.

00:27:46.690 --> 00:27:49.029
And so that's your game. Heads gives you a dollar.

00:27:49.190 --> 00:27:52.660
If you play that out, Until it concludes, what

00:27:52.660 --> 00:27:55.440
happens is some people lose, let's say they have

00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.920
$10. They lose 10 times in a row. Well, then

00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.880
what happens? At zero. Well, they can't trade

00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:05.400
anymore. So what happens is people lose at different

00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:07.980
rates, but if you lose enough, even if it takes

00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:09.880
you 100 trades to lose all your money, as soon

00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.539
as you hit zero, you're done. If you play that

00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:14.440
out to its conclusion, even though it's random,

00:28:14.660 --> 00:28:17.200
completely random, the trading, one person ends

00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.880
up with all the money, and everyone else ends

00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:26.089
up with zero. And so I'm a member of a native

00:28:26.089 --> 00:28:29.910
Canadian family, West Coast Indian family, native

00:28:29.910 --> 00:28:35.029
family. And this particular culture had a tradition,

00:28:35.529 --> 00:28:38.190
the potlatch. And they had the same problem in

00:28:38.190 --> 00:28:41.190
their culture. And the problem was that some

00:28:41.190 --> 00:28:43.809
of the big chiefs over some period of time would

00:28:43.809 --> 00:28:47.029
end up with like all the stuff, all of it. And

00:28:47.029 --> 00:28:49.470
that wasn't good because... Well, for obvious

00:28:49.470 --> 00:28:52.089
reasons, you know, it would destabilize the society.

00:28:52.349 --> 00:28:55.089
That's, in some sense, the least of the problems.

00:28:55.589 --> 00:28:58.190
And so they evolved this mechanism. They'd have

00:28:58.190 --> 00:29:00.450
these big celebrations that rich people would

00:29:00.450 --> 00:29:03.690
put on where status was determined by how much

00:29:03.690 --> 00:29:06.910
of that wealth you would give away. Right, right.

00:29:07.029 --> 00:29:08.829
And that was the potlatch. Yeah, yeah. They had

00:29:08.829 --> 00:29:12.970
to do it. Well, that's philanthropy, right? People

00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:15.829
really looked very highly upon very wealthy people

00:29:15.829 --> 00:29:18.009
that engaged in a lot of philanthropy. Yeah,

00:29:18.009 --> 00:29:21.609
well, and I haven't, this might be a biased sample,

00:29:21.730 --> 00:29:24.230
but I don't think so. And if it is, it's biased

00:29:24.230 --> 00:29:27.130
towards entrepreneur conservative types who you

00:29:27.130 --> 00:29:29.869
would think in the parody sense would be the

00:29:29.869 --> 00:29:32.269
least likely to do this. I haven't met anyone

00:29:32.269 --> 00:29:36.250
who has a vast fortune whose primary concern

00:29:36.250 --> 00:29:39.599
is, isn't. what the hell can I do with all this

00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:41.940
money that's beneficial as fast as possible?

00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.200
They're not sitting around thinking, I need another

00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:46.460
super yacht. Now, look, there's going to be people

00:29:46.460 --> 00:29:49.579
like that, you know, but I haven't met any of

00:29:49.579 --> 00:29:52.339
them. Have you met Jeff Bezos? No, I haven't.

00:29:52.339 --> 00:29:55.119
I haven't met Bezos. I bet he's got a couple

00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.319
super yachts. I'm sure he does. I'm sure he does.

00:29:57.380 --> 00:29:59.039
But, like, I'm pretty happy about the fact that

00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:00.799
he's building rocket ships, and that actually

00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.279
takes a lot of capital. Yeah. You know, and the

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:04.960
other thing that, there's a couple of other things

00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.960
about. that are worth thinking about. One is,

00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.700
all the evidence suggests that relatively free

00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:14.420
markets are the best way to make the absolutely

00:30:14.420 --> 00:30:17.880
poor richer. That's not an inequality issue.

00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:20.359
It's just that while they're not starving, and

00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:22.279
that's something. We've lifted more people out

00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:25.380
of poverty in the last 15 years than in the entire

00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:27.359
course of human history. Can I pause you for

00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.700
a second there? Oh, one point that I forgot.

00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:33.460
I read this the other day, that where Karl Marx

00:30:33.460 --> 00:30:36.380
is buried, they have to charge money because

00:30:36.380 --> 00:30:38.579
they have to maintain it. Uh -huh. Very funny.

00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:40.140
And they need money to maintain it. Yeah, yeah.

00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:41.839
Make sure that's true. Yeah, yeah. Because it's

00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.640
hilarious. I read that, and it was like a meme.

00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:45.880
And I was like, is that real? Because it is kind

00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.559
of funny. My daughter once bought me a 50 % off

00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:51.240
Karl Marx doll, which I thought was just ridiculous.

00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:53.140
And she bought it for that reason. That's adorable.

00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:54.960
She told me it's so funny. It was so funny. Now,

00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:59.019
capitalism. Yeah. When people start talking about

00:30:59.019 --> 00:31:02.319
capitalism, and we talk about capitalism uplifting.

00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:06.259
Poor people. One of the issues that a lot of

00:31:06.259 --> 00:31:09.039
people have in this country is when you ship

00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:13.119
jobs overseas and you ship companies start manufacturing

00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.559
things overseas for essentially pennies on the

00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:18.380
dollar. Yeah. I mean, this is like it's one of

00:31:18.380 --> 00:31:21.099
the great contradictions to the progressives

00:31:21.099 --> 00:31:24.480
in America that they complain about capitalism

00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.799
on a fucking iPhone. Because if you went down

00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:32.539
to the factory where that iPhone was manufactured,

00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.539
you'd be heartbroken. If you went further to

00:31:35.539 --> 00:31:37.519
where the minerals are dug out of the ground

00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.500
in the Congo, you'd be devastated. That's the

00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:42.920
reality of capitalism. That's the reality of

00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:46.440
sending jobs overseas. The cure to that is a

00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.700
more even distribution of wealth within the company.

00:31:51.500 --> 00:31:53.619
The company would have to, and I'm not picking

00:31:53.619 --> 00:31:55.720
on Apple like any company, name them. They would

00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:58.480
have to pay the people that work there a decent

00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:02.359
living wage with great benefits and health insurance

00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:04.420
and dental and all the stuff that people want

00:32:04.420 --> 00:32:07.039
and need in order to feel secure and safe. Give

00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.220
them a great working environment. Don't overwork

00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:11.579
them. And now how much money do you have? Because

00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:14.500
the amount of money that Apple has put aside,

00:32:14.740 --> 00:32:17.099
and obviously I'm an Apple fan. I have an Apple

00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:19.220
phone right here. I'm not picking on Apple. But

00:32:19.220 --> 00:32:21.140
they are one of the richest companies. that's

00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:23.420
ever existed on the face of planet Earth. But

00:32:23.420 --> 00:32:25.319
how are they doing that? One of the ways they're

00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:27.240
doing that is by paying people very little to

00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:29.079
make their products that they sell for a giant

00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:31.920
amount of money. So what's the solution to that?

00:32:32.059 --> 00:32:35.119
Is the solution to pay people a fair amount?

00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:37.900
And if you do that... Is the solution to pay

00:32:37.900 --> 00:32:40.079
people a fair amount in another country? Or is

00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.900
the solution to pay people a fair amount here

00:32:41.900 --> 00:32:44.619
where we can regulate it? Because we do manufacture

00:32:44.619 --> 00:32:47.319
some things here, but we manufacture way less

00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:50.059
than we used to because it costs too much money

00:32:50.059 --> 00:32:52.839
to do so. But that word too much or that phrase

00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:55.180
too much is bullshit. It's not that it costs

00:32:55.180 --> 00:32:57.900
too much. It's just that it costs more. And they

00:32:57.900 --> 00:32:59.420
don't want to pay it. They would rather just

00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:01.759
reap in profits. And the way they do that is

00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:04.079
on the backs of poor people. Now, if you do that

00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:05.660
on the backs of poor people. We can take that

00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:08.200
apart a bit. Right. But here's my question. If

00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:10.019
you really wanted to make these other countries,

00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:11.940
like third world countries, and raise them up

00:33:11.940 --> 00:33:13.940
and really increase the economy, what you would

00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:16.720
do is pay people in third world countries where

00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:19.200
you have these plants the same amount that you

00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:21.609
would have to pay them in America. then you'd

00:33:21.609 --> 00:33:24.170
have a complete change in those environments.

00:33:24.549 --> 00:33:27.410
Okay, so we can take that apart a bunch of ways.

00:33:27.589 --> 00:33:30.789
I mean, part of the advantage to manufacturing

00:33:30.789 --> 00:33:34.009
things where wages are relatively low is you

00:33:34.009 --> 00:33:35.890
give those countries a competitive advantage.

00:33:36.569 --> 00:33:39.710
So part of the reason that there aren't millions

00:33:39.710 --> 00:33:42.490
of people starving in China is because even the

00:33:42.490 --> 00:33:45.329
Chinese communists woke up enough to realize

00:33:45.329 --> 00:33:48.430
that if they opened up their economies, that

00:33:48.430 --> 00:33:52.519
free market, Free market is nothing different

00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:55.380
than allowing unrestricted choice among consumers

00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:57.339
in some sense. So when we're talking about the

00:33:57.339 --> 00:33:58.920
free market, we should be careful about what

00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:00.180
we're talking about. It's like you get to have

00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:02.740
choice about what you buy. That's the central

00:34:02.740 --> 00:34:07.700
spirit of free market capitalism. Exporting those

00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:11.659
jobs stopped a huge proportion of the Chinese

00:34:11.659 --> 00:34:14.380
from living in absolute privation and likely

00:34:14.380 --> 00:34:17.340
decreased the probability of a broad -scale war.

00:34:18.989 --> 00:34:20.929
And it also brought the Chinese into the economy,

00:34:21.190 --> 00:34:23.190
which is a big deal. The Chinese produce more

00:34:23.190 --> 00:34:25.530
engineers every year than Americans have engineers.

00:34:26.230 --> 00:34:28.869
And so now we've unlocked an unbelievable amount

00:34:28.869 --> 00:34:31.769
of brain power. And that's produced an insane

00:34:31.769 --> 00:34:35.710
technological revolution. Now, I think it's unfortunate

00:34:35.710 --> 00:34:37.829
that a lot of that was done on the backs of the

00:34:37.829 --> 00:34:40.670
American working class. And I think that the

00:34:40.670 --> 00:34:42.889
Democrats abandoning the working class when they

00:34:42.889 --> 00:34:45.340
were in that... state of privation was a catastrophe

00:34:45.340 --> 00:34:48.699
of public policy. And also part of the reason

00:34:48.699 --> 00:34:51.659
why Trump got elected. But it isn't obvious to

00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:56.980
me that exporting those jobs was a bad long -term

00:34:56.980 --> 00:35:00.820
decision. Because, well, you want a world where

00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:04.820
20 million Chinese are starving? That's not good.

00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:07.599
By any measure, right? But is that the only way

00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.679
that they don't starve? The only way they don't

00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.179
starve is if iPhones are manufactured there for

00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:15.519
pennies on the dollar? Yes. Really? Well, no

00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:18.860
other solutions ever worked. But that doesn't

00:35:18.860 --> 00:35:20.679
mean they can't work. Yeah, it might. If they

00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:23.260
work in America, it might? Really? Well, I don't

00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:26.639
know, Joe, because either... Look, that's a good

00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:29.840
question, you know, but for me, the problem with

00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:34.860
utopian theories is that... They're hypothetical.

00:35:36.099 --> 00:35:39.360
So I like to look at what's actually worked.

00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:43.219
And what's clearly worked is the introduction

00:35:43.219 --> 00:35:45.380
of free market principles into poor countries.

00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:48.079
So, for example, Africa has the fastest growing

00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:50.539
economies in the world, particularly sub -Saharan

00:35:50.539 --> 00:35:53.400
Africa. That's really something. And some of

00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:56.000
those countries are really getting on a reasonably

00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:58.860
solid footing. And most of that's happened, almost

00:35:58.860 --> 00:36:00.860
all that's happened since the Berlin Wall fell.

00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:07.099
that continent isn't being riven by a terrible

00:36:07.099 --> 00:36:09.679
conflict between the communists and the capitalists.

00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:12.280
And most of the reason the eradication of that

00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:14.380
conflict has been beneficial is because they're

00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:17.539
not doing unbelievably stupid and counterproductive

00:36:17.539 --> 00:36:20.219
things at the policy level. They're letting markets

00:36:20.219 --> 00:36:24.019
flourish to at least a limited degree. And that's

00:36:24.019 --> 00:36:26.940
making, that's, people aren't, you know, there's,

00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:28.980
I talked to some people, I was in Washington

00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.619
for a week, last week, and I talked to some people

00:36:32.619 --> 00:36:36.880
who are, working with a UN committee that's prime

00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:42.099
goal is the eradication of hunger. Well, there

00:36:42.099 --> 00:36:43.900
isn't any hunger in the world anymore that isn't

00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:48.380
caused by political conflict. Everyone has enough

00:36:48.380 --> 00:36:51.519
to eat. In fact, it's so interesting that one

00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:53.619
of the emerging problems, especially among the

00:36:53.619 --> 00:36:56.179
poor all over the world, is that they have too

00:36:56.179 --> 00:36:58.760
much to eat. And so we're seeing diseases of

00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:02.329
affluence replace diseases of privation. And

00:37:02.329 --> 00:37:04.369
you think, isn't that too bad, these Western

00:37:04.369 --> 00:37:07.329
diets? And, you know, fair enough, but you want

00:37:07.329 --> 00:37:11.769
to be fat or dead? And fat's better. And fat

00:37:11.769 --> 00:37:15.449
isn't optimal, let's say, but it beats the hell

00:37:15.449 --> 00:37:17.670
out of dead. How many people starve to death

00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:20.769
in the world? Now? Almost none. Let's look that

00:37:20.769 --> 00:37:23.809
up. Almost all those who do, do it because of

00:37:23.809 --> 00:37:25.929
political conflict. Like, it's purposeful starvation

00:37:25.929 --> 00:37:28.510
now. So someone has put a blockade on ships and

00:37:28.510 --> 00:37:31.480
goods. Yeah, to starve them. Right, as a political

00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:35.900
weapon. When you're talking about the prosperous

00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:39.059
areas that have prospered because they brought

00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:42.340
in the market and these companies have shipped

00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:45.199
these jobs over to these places and allowed these

00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:47.940
people to flourish, the flip side is Detroit.

00:37:48.590 --> 00:37:51.230
Right. Detroit was one of the wealthiest cities

00:37:51.230 --> 00:37:53.750
in this country and hence one of the wealthiest

00:37:53.750 --> 00:37:56.269
cities in the world just a few decades ago. It

00:37:56.269 --> 00:37:58.329
wasn't that long ago. When they were in the height

00:37:58.329 --> 00:38:01.369
of their manufacturing, all the American automobiles

00:38:01.369 --> 00:38:04.889
were made in Detroit. Cadillacs and Chevys and

00:38:04.889 --> 00:38:08.489
Fords and that was where everybody worked. And

00:38:08.489 --> 00:38:10.849
then it was also where the union auto workers

00:38:10.849 --> 00:38:13.829
had established a strong foothold and they made

00:38:13.829 --> 00:38:16.630
good money. You bet. People got paid a great

00:38:16.630 --> 00:38:20.440
wage. Everyone who worked in those places, they

00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:24.239
had a good lifestyle. Well, Henry Ford did what

00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:28.000
you said that capitalists should do. I mean,

00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:30.019
when Ford was pressed on how much he paid his

00:38:30.019 --> 00:38:31.579
workers, because he paid them a lot, he said,

00:38:31.659 --> 00:38:34.480
I want to pay them enough so that they can afford

00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:38.380
a car. And so he ramped up wages dramatically.

00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:41.980
And that was partly part of his, you could say,

00:38:42.019 --> 00:38:43.920
self -interested vision, although I think that's

00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:46.199
an oversimplification. It's like, well... If

00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:47.780
we want to sell our product, why don't we expand

00:38:47.780 --> 00:38:49.559
the consumer market? Well, those people have

00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:51.940
to have some money. That was Ford's notion. When

00:38:51.940 --> 00:38:55.360
I was a kid, I had friends that had done gigs

00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:57.480
in Detroit when I was just starting out doing

00:38:57.480 --> 00:38:58.820
stand -up. And they were like, whatever you do,

00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.840
don't go to Detroit with a fucking Japanese car

00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:03.219
because they will fuck your car up. I go, really?

00:39:03.579 --> 00:39:06.679
They go, yeah, these guys are autoworkers. They

00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:09.960
don't want to see foreign cars that they don't

00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:13.199
make in their city. It's a proud city that makes

00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:17.070
American cars. There was a thing. Yeah, well,

00:39:17.130 --> 00:39:18.889
they were responding to a real threat. You were

00:39:18.889 --> 00:39:21.349
talking about old cars with me earlier. So one

00:39:21.349 --> 00:39:23.690
of my friends in the little town I grew up in,

00:39:23.730 --> 00:39:26.929
this was back in the mid -70s, had a Dodge Colt,

00:39:26.929 --> 00:39:30.619
and it was one of the first Japanese cars. And

00:39:30.619 --> 00:39:33.199
that thing was a real piece of junk in a sea

00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.820
of pieces of junk because cars in the mid -70s,

00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:38.840
they were not good. They fell apart. They rusted

00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:41.820
fast, but nothing rusted faster than a Japanese

00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:43.880
car in Canada. Those bloody things, you could

00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:45.860
put them outside in the winter when there was

00:39:45.860 --> 00:39:48.199
salt on the road and watch them dissolve. But

00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:51.179
what was very interesting about that, I saw this

00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:54.579
with the Chinese too because in Alberta, I went

00:39:54.579 --> 00:39:57.880
to Edmonton, I think this would be 1975 about.

00:39:58.510 --> 00:40:01.550
It was the first Chinese trade fair in Canada.

00:40:01.989 --> 00:40:05.190
So they had Chinese manufactured implements at

00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:07.389
this display. It was really interesting because

00:40:07.389 --> 00:40:10.690
it was like walking back into 1945 or 1950. We

00:40:10.690 --> 00:40:12.269
looked at all these things and we thought, oh,

00:40:12.309 --> 00:40:14.409
that looks like exactly like what grandpa was

00:40:14.409 --> 00:40:17.289
using on the farm, you know, 40 years ago. So

00:40:17.289 --> 00:40:19.409
with the Japanese, it's like their cars were

00:40:19.409 --> 00:40:22.929
junk to begin with. Yeah, to begin with. And

00:40:22.929 --> 00:40:25.550
then they got to be Toyota. And just think what

00:40:25.550 --> 00:40:27.789
Toyota did. You talked about how good cars are

00:40:27.789 --> 00:40:30.309
now. Well, the net consequence of opening up

00:40:30.309 --> 00:40:32.590
that competition was the Japanese got their act

00:40:32.590 --> 00:40:36.530
together. I mean, in the 80s, particularly, Japan

00:40:36.530 --> 00:40:38.730
got so powerful that everyone thought it would

00:40:38.730 --> 00:40:41.010
be the dominant world economy for like 10 years.

00:40:41.250 --> 00:40:43.269
And they just went from nothing after World War

00:40:43.269 --> 00:40:47.050
II to like superstars in 40 years. And it's really

00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:49.230
hard to see how that wasn't everyone's benefit.

00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:53.710
Now, to your point, when you open up competition,

00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:57.599
But internationally, especially in manufacturing,

00:40:58.059 --> 00:41:01.780
you pose a tremendous threat to the current working

00:41:01.780 --> 00:41:03.820
class in your country, a tremendous immediate

00:41:03.820 --> 00:41:06.880
threat. It might be a long -term benefit because

00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.920
it stabilizes international relations between

00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.119
countries that might otherwise go to war, in

00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:13.980
which case it would be working class people that

00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:16.099
would be being slaughtered like mad. But it's

00:41:16.099 --> 00:41:19.599
no doubt that, to me, there's almost no doubt

00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:25.559
that the freeing of trade... worldwide, and the

00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:29.500
benefits that that produced were paid for disproportionately

00:41:29.500 --> 00:41:32.780
by the American working class. And it also raises

00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:35.159
another really complicated problem, which is

00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.599
when your economy switches to information and

00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:41.679
services, which is more complex cognitively,

00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:45.199
to deliver, what do you do with people who would

00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:47.340
have been really good at working class jobs but

00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:49.119
aren't going to be good in the knowledge economy?

00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:54.059
And the answer is, we don't know. Which is not

00:41:54.059 --> 00:41:56.659
a very good answer. And the idea that we could

00:41:56.659 --> 00:41:59.539
just somehow give them money. You can't solve

00:41:59.539 --> 00:42:03.039
people's problems by giving. I had a client who

00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:07.539
had a cocaine problem. And he was rather intellectually

00:42:07.539 --> 00:42:10.659
limited, this client. And would have agreed with

00:42:10.659 --> 00:42:12.420
that assessment, by the way. I'm not being rude.

00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:14.800
That's an adorable statement. I'm going to use

00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.960
that from now on. I've dealt with many people

00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:21.739
in my life who weren't going to university. They

00:42:21.739 --> 00:42:23.679
probably weren't going through high school. And

00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:25.840
it isn't because they didn't work hard. Sometimes

00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.880
that was why. But it was because, no, they couldn't

00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:32.619
do that. They couldn't do it. And so they struggled,

00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:35.880
man. And this guy in particular, it was so interesting

00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:38.519
because he wasn't doing too bad when he had almost

00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:43.519
no money. but he got a disability check because

00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:46.019
he'd been hurt at work. And every time he had

00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:48.019
a disability check, he was gone for three days

00:42:48.019 --> 00:42:50.159
on a cocaine and alcohol binge, and he'd just

00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:52.280
drink up all his money. Then he'd end up in a

00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.059
ditch somewhere, like really 80 % dead, and then

00:42:55.059 --> 00:42:58.360
eventually dead, because eventually it was that

00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:01.380
kind of behavior that killed him. But more money,

00:43:01.420 --> 00:43:04.210
he would have just died sooner. You need to be

00:43:04.210 --> 00:43:07.429
able to handle money. It's a tremendously destabilizing

00:43:07.429 --> 00:43:10.190
technology. Okay, now about that man. Do you

00:43:10.190 --> 00:43:12.530
believe that that was a genetic situation or

00:43:12.530 --> 00:43:15.210
was that a situation of nurture? Was the way

00:43:15.210 --> 00:43:17.269
he was raised? Is it the environment that he

00:43:17.269 --> 00:43:18.849
grew up in? Oh, it was a couple of things. I

00:43:18.849 --> 00:43:22.170
mean, he really liked alcohol. And there's a

00:43:22.170 --> 00:43:25.309
huge biological contributor to that. Some people...

00:43:25.309 --> 00:43:28.269
I worked with a researcher in Montreal who had

00:43:28.269 --> 00:43:31.789
a monkey farm on St. Kitts. Green monkeys. And...

00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:34.900
He was interested in studying alcoholism, and

00:43:34.900 --> 00:43:37.400
he would capture monkeys in the wild and bring

00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:40.000
them to his compound, and then allow them to

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.260
access a pretty sweetened mixture of rum and

00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:45.619
water. Well, they used something else other than

00:43:45.619 --> 00:43:49.260
water. And most of the monkeys could take it

00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:52.679
or leave it. 5 % of them would drink themselves

00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:56.739
into a coma on first exposure. And he has videotapes

00:43:56.739 --> 00:43:58.219
of this. It was like watching the frat house,

00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:00.440
you know, on Saturday night. So it's really,

00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:03.719
it's comical. Drunk monkeys are actually pretty

00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:07.179
funny, as you might imagine. But 5 % of them

00:44:07.179 --> 00:44:09.000
would drink themselves to coma on first exposure.

00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:11.280
And those are the monkeys that would become alcohol

00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.980
dependent if you gave them unlimited access.

00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:16.039
Right, but you know the problem with those monkey

00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:19.260
studies, right? Those monkey studies is the same

00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:22.559
as rat farm studies. When they've done studies

00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:25.619
on rats, they've done studies with rats in cages

00:44:25.619 --> 00:44:27.960
with cocaine. Yeah, these were monkeys in natural

00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:29.440
environments. Natural environments, how so? Yeah,

00:44:29.500 --> 00:44:31.360
we knew about that. Well, they were housed in

00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:34.519
colonies. Housed in colonies. How large are these

00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:36.539
colonies and what kind of land are they on? Well,

00:44:36.539 --> 00:44:39.679
okay, let's separate this. It's very hard to

00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:41.599
get rats addicted to cocaine if they live in

00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:43.820
a natural environment. If you put them in a cage

00:44:43.820 --> 00:44:45.599
and bore them to death. Let's explain that to

00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:47.000
people what we're talking about because there

00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:49.699
are studies that were done where initially people

00:44:49.699 --> 00:44:52.360
thought that cocaine was so addictive that if

00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:54.519
you gave it to rats, they would just take the

00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:56.480
cocaine until they died. Right. And they wouldn't

00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.619
even engage in sex. But then they realized that

00:44:59.619 --> 00:45:01.780
if you take these rats, that when you were doing

00:45:01.780 --> 00:45:03.260
this, you're taking these rats in these highly

00:45:03.260 --> 00:45:04.840
stressed out environments. You're putting them

00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:07.559
in cages. Nothing's natural. And if you take

00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:10.400
these rats and you put them in a far larger environment

00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:13.179
with trees and Everything that a rat normally

00:45:13.179 --> 00:45:14.860
has. Like other rats, for example. Yeah, like

00:45:14.860 --> 00:45:17.920
real normal. Like a normal rat environment. And

00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:19.659
then you give them cocaine. They're not interested.

00:45:19.900 --> 00:45:22.059
Yeah. They're only interested in it if you stress

00:45:22.059 --> 00:45:24.639
them out by putting them in cages. Now, is that

00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:28.000
the same with these monkeys? Imagine the natural

00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:30.380
rat environment there. Yes. Okay, so now you

00:45:30.380 --> 00:45:33.000
have your rats in the natural environment. Now

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.139
imagine you gave them access to cocaine and you

00:45:35.139 --> 00:45:38.300
stressed them. So what would happen is a certain

00:45:38.300 --> 00:45:40.579
percentage of the rats would start using cocaine

00:45:40.579 --> 00:45:42.460
in proportion to the amount of stress. Like if

00:45:42.460 --> 00:45:44.579
you let a bunch of cats loose. Yeah, exactly.

00:45:44.900 --> 00:45:47.139
Exactly. And maybe in that case, maybe they'd

00:45:47.139 --> 00:45:49.340
prefer alcohol or benzodiazepines because that

00:45:49.340 --> 00:45:52.599
would specifically alleviate anxiety. And so

00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:55.179
it is the case. And this was brilliant research

00:45:55.179 --> 00:45:59.360
showing that, see, a lab rat is not, a lab rat's

00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:01.000
actually a pretty good model of a human being

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.659
for reasons we can go into later. An isolated

00:46:04.659 --> 00:46:07.880
lab rat who's been genetically bred is not that

00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:10.619
much like an actual rat. And when Skinner did

00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:13.400
all his studies on lab rats, not only were they

00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:17.480
isolated, which rats never are in the real world

00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:20.159
because they're communal and social. They play.

00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:23.960
They laugh. They wrestle. They have very complex

00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:26.519
social environments. They're not that interested

00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:29.980
in... artificial forms of psychomotor stimulation

00:46:29.980 --> 00:46:32.239
if they're in a natural environment. But some

00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:34.260
of them will still be more interested than others.

00:46:34.659 --> 00:46:36.619
There's still that variability that's lurking

00:46:36.619 --> 00:46:39.280
in the background. And with these monkeys, most

00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:42.739
of them wouldn't take alcohol repeatedly, but

00:46:42.739 --> 00:46:44.860
a small percentage of them would. And you see

00:46:44.860 --> 00:46:47.139
very much the same. And all I'm saying, I'm not

00:46:47.139 --> 00:46:49.460
saying anything revolutionary here. I'm saying,

00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:53.079
for example, if you experiment with 20 different

00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:55.119
drugs, you'll probably find the one for you.

00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:58.179
And people react differently to pharmacological

00:46:58.179 --> 00:47:00.800
substances, and a huge part of the variation

00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:02.960
in that reactivity is genetically determined

00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:06.920
or genetically influenced. So that's not a surprise.

00:47:07.539 --> 00:47:12.780
It's not much more surprising than saying some

00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:15.000
people are born more anxious than other people.

00:47:15.099 --> 00:47:16.519
Can I bring you back to this, though? What kind

00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:18.420
of an environment were those monkeys in? Are

00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:21.119
they in a cage? They were in a cage, but it was

00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:23.519
a large cage. The cage wasn't stressing them.

00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:29.000
Oh, these cages would have been... See, the monkeys

00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:30.840
actually didn't mind being in the cage. How do

00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:33.019
we know this? Do we talk to the monkeys? Oh,

00:47:33.019 --> 00:47:35.219
you can tell because they won't run out of it

00:47:35.219 --> 00:47:37.559
if you open the door. Like there is ways of...

00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.860
So you say, what does a rat want? Well, how do

00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:42.500
you know what a rat wants? It's like, that's

00:47:42.500 --> 00:47:46.920
easy. What will he work to obtain? And so rats,

00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:49.420
we know what that rats like play. It's like,

00:47:49.420 --> 00:47:52.000
how do you know rats like play? Well, you...

00:47:52.650 --> 00:47:55.590
you put two rats in a little arena where they

00:47:55.590 --> 00:47:59.449
can wrestle. And then the next time that they

00:47:59.449 --> 00:48:01.869
know they can go into the arena, so maybe do

00:48:01.869 --> 00:48:03.909
it a couple of times so they learn that, then

00:48:03.909 --> 00:48:05.909
you can make them press a bar to open the door

00:48:05.909 --> 00:48:08.829
to get into the arena. Well, then you measure

00:48:08.829 --> 00:48:10.550
how many times they'll press the bar and how

00:48:10.550 --> 00:48:12.150
fast they'll press it, and then you can derive

00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:15.650
insight, direct insight, into how motivated they

00:48:15.650 --> 00:48:17.909
are, because motivation is directly proportionate

00:48:17.909 --> 00:48:19.929
to the willingness to expand energy, logically

00:48:19.929 --> 00:48:23.110
enough. And so... And you can do the same thing

00:48:23.110 --> 00:48:25.610
with drugs. How hard will the animal work to

00:48:25.610 --> 00:48:27.809
obtain a given pharmacological substance is an

00:48:27.809 --> 00:48:30.190
indication of how rewarding that drug is to them.

00:48:30.650 --> 00:48:32.469
Those studies have been done unbelievably carefully,

00:48:32.730 --> 00:48:35.849
and we know there's tremendous variation. So

00:48:35.849 --> 00:48:39.789
you can have your cake and eat it too. You can

00:48:39.789 --> 00:48:42.389
say, look, under most normal and natural conditions,

00:48:42.510 --> 00:48:44.710
it's not that easy to addict animals to an addictive

00:48:44.710 --> 00:48:47.219
substance, but there's still a... a percentage

00:48:47.219 --> 00:48:49.800
of them that are more susceptible to that than

00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:53.000
others. And even in highly stressed human environments,

00:48:53.179 --> 00:48:55.300
not everybody becomes a cocaine addict or an

00:48:55.300 --> 00:48:57.920
alcoholic. And then you might say, well, why

00:48:57.920 --> 00:48:59.739
do some people become cocaine addicts and some

00:48:59.739 --> 00:49:02.099
people become alcoholic? And some of it is availability,

00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:04.940
but some of it is, well, they like alcohol better

00:49:04.940 --> 00:49:08.559
or they like cocaine better. Other people can

00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:11.480
take it or leave it. And so when you say—because

00:49:11.480 --> 00:49:13.460
you asked me, is it nature or nurture? Right.

00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:16.219
Right. And that's where this argument stemmed

00:49:16.219 --> 00:49:18.239
from. But I was talking also about his limited

00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:21.500
intelligence. That seems to be completely independent

00:49:21.500 --> 00:49:24.300
of susceptibility to drug addiction. Right. But

00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:26.260
do you think that—you were talking about him

00:49:26.260 --> 00:49:27.960
being intellectually limited. Yes. Do you think

00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:30.280
that that intellectual limitation— Made his life

00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:34.369
harder. Is it genetic? Yes. Yeah. Yes, it's not

00:49:34.369 --> 00:49:37.730
only genetic, mostly because you can really impair

00:49:37.730 --> 00:49:40.329
people by putting them in situations of deprivation.

00:49:41.130 --> 00:49:43.230
And so one of the things that's happened over

00:49:43.230 --> 00:49:46.449
the last century is the mean IQ has gone up seven

00:49:46.449 --> 00:49:49.829
points per generation, which is a lot, like it's

00:49:49.829 --> 00:49:53.289
really a lot. So 15 -point IQ difference is the

00:49:53.289 --> 00:49:55.409
average difference between the typical high school

00:49:55.409 --> 00:49:57.510
graduate and the typical college graduate. So

00:49:57.510 --> 00:50:00.659
15 points is four years of university. roughly

00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:03.679
speaking, seven points in a generation is half

00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:05.159
the difference between a high school student

00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:07.219
and a college graduate. And it's gone up seven

00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:11.239
points a generation every 15 years. It's a lot.

00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.360
And so is intelligence mutable? Well, there's

00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:18.820
some evidence that it is. Why did it happen?

00:50:19.579 --> 00:50:23.480
Well, partly because there are far few extremely

00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:27.699
deprived people, even on the information front.

00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:29.860
Some of this was the introduction of television.

00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:32.280
You know, you hear, television makes people stupider.

00:50:32.420 --> 00:50:35.760
It's like, no, it makes smart people who could

00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.000
have been even smarter if they would have read

00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:40.219
Shakespeare stupider than they would have been

00:50:40.219 --> 00:50:41.739
if they read Shakespeare if they're watching

00:50:41.739 --> 00:50:44.739
TV. But if you're a deprived kid and sitting

00:50:44.739 --> 00:50:47.699
in the crib with no one paying attention to you

00:50:47.699 --> 00:50:51.280
for like three years, TV is way better than that.

00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:54.400
And so if you give people access to information

00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:57.639
and access to enough food, let's say, you pull

00:50:57.639 --> 00:50:59.639
up the bottom end of the cognitive distribution

00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:02.659
tremendously. And a lot of that, a tremendous

00:51:02.659 --> 00:51:04.340
amount of that has happened all over the world

00:51:04.340 --> 00:51:06.599
in the last hundred years. And that's a great

00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:09.539
deal for everyone because, well, that's that

00:51:09.539 --> 00:51:12.199
much more brain power that's available for everyone

00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:15.079
to benefit from. Like it's unbelievably valuable.

00:51:16.090 --> 00:51:18.610
You can see the cascade in that part of our technological

00:51:18.610 --> 00:51:22.289
transformation. It's so incredibly fast. It's

00:51:22.289 --> 00:51:25.610
like, well, the Chinese are producing as many

00:51:25.610 --> 00:51:28.010
engineers every year as the Americans have engineers.

00:51:28.929 --> 00:51:31.369
It's no wonder that things are accelerating at

00:51:31.369 --> 00:51:34.329
such a rate. Now, they don't innovate at the

00:51:34.329 --> 00:51:36.769
same rate as the US innovates, but they're not

00:51:36.769 --> 00:51:40.090
doing too bad. And soon, you know, depending

00:51:40.090 --> 00:51:43.090
on how much they continue to flirt with totalitarianism.

00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:45.599
Just think of all that billion people, all that

00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:49.059
creativity unleashed. Man, all that intelligence

00:51:49.059 --> 00:51:51.639
unleashed. So that is the dance over there, right?

00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:56.139
The totalitarianism versus innovation, versus

00:51:56.139 --> 00:52:00.280
giving people the freedom and also removing the

00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:02.940
fear of that totalitarian government so they

00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:05.000
have the ability to take risks. No, it's the

00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.300
dance here too, right? In some sense, it's the

00:52:07.300 --> 00:52:10.820
eternal dance. It's the eternal dance. It's the

00:52:10.820 --> 00:52:12.980
part of the eternal dance between... freedom

00:52:12.980 --> 00:52:16.159
and structure even. And that's a tough one because

00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:19.380
there's no freedom without structure. Like I

00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:21.599
used to play a game with my students when we

00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.219
were talking about Jean Piaget, who was very

00:52:24.219 --> 00:52:26.579
interested in the development of morality through

00:52:26.579 --> 00:52:30.260
games. So I say to them, so we're talking about

00:52:30.260 --> 00:52:33.619
freedom. It's like, okay, freedom. It's freedom

00:52:33.619 --> 00:52:37.599
from constraint is freedom. All right, fine.

00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:40.179
Let's play a game. Do you want to play this game?

00:52:40.420 --> 00:52:46.019
Sure. Okay. You move first. What do you mean?

00:52:47.139 --> 00:52:49.519
That's the game. You can do anything you want.

00:52:50.059 --> 00:52:53.119
You move first. You think, that's not much of

00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.480
a game. It's like, no, it's a complete, it's

00:52:55.480 --> 00:52:57.440
the perfect game. You're absolutely free to do

00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.039
anything you want. Okay. Well, everybody does

00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:04.340
what you did. You just sit there. The right amount

00:53:04.340 --> 00:53:07.460
of rules for freedom is not zero. Say, now I

00:53:07.460 --> 00:53:08.940
put a chessboard in front of you, you think,

00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:11.869
oh my God. all the limitations. I can't throw

00:53:11.869 --> 00:53:14.750
a basketball on the chessboard, which you certainly

00:53:14.750 --> 00:53:17.130
can't, not if you're playing chess. But now,

00:53:17.130 --> 00:53:19.489
you know, you move first. I move the pawn two

00:53:19.489 --> 00:53:23.010
spaces forward. I see what you're saying. Having

00:53:23.010 --> 00:53:26.190
some structure and some rules to follow gives

00:53:26.190 --> 00:53:29.869
people more of a path to go out. To everything.

00:53:30.010 --> 00:53:33.710
Yeah, yeah. And so, and I think this is modeled

00:53:33.710 --> 00:53:36.690
by music. This is really worth knowing. This...

00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:40.019
Like, almost took the top of my head off when

00:53:40.019 --> 00:53:42.300
I realized it. And it took me about four months

00:53:42.300 --> 00:53:44.659
of thinking to figure this out. Because when

00:53:44.659 --> 00:53:49.119
I was in graduate school at McGill, I was really

00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:51.119
interested, I became really interested in the

00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:53.219
reality of evil. And I was very interested in

00:53:53.219 --> 00:53:56.920
the viability of nihilistic beliefs. You know,

00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:01.139
why bother if everything's going to disappear

00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:05.019
in a hundred years? Who cares? You know, it's

00:54:05.019 --> 00:54:07.159
meaningless. In the final analysis, life is meaningless.

00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:09.880
Right. Okay, well, you know, you can make a credible

00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:15.360
case for that. Now, it's an upsetting case. Because

00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:17.719
once you accept that, first of all, you're anxious

00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:21.239
and hurt by it. So that's not so good. And second,

00:54:21.380 --> 00:54:23.400
it kind of makes you aimless. And that's part

00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.260
of nihilism. It's like, you know, you're anxious

00:54:25.260 --> 00:54:27.440
and upset, but you're also aimless. Because why

00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:31.000
bother? And fair enough, but you can make a credible

00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:35.599
case for it. But then I thought, well, When that

00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:38.840
gets out of hand, maybe you're nihilistic because

00:54:38.840 --> 00:54:42.139
you're mortal and life ends in death. So you're

00:54:42.139 --> 00:54:44.639
sort of nihilistic because of suffering. And

00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:46.880
so then you become nihilistic as a logical response

00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:49.539
to that, and then what happens? And then what

00:54:49.539 --> 00:54:52.000
you see is that nihilistic people definitely

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.960
make suffering worse. Definitely. They make it

00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:58.550
worse for themselves, for sure. But then... They

00:54:58.550 --> 00:55:01.369
get bitter because their lives are so unbearable,

00:55:01.409 --> 00:55:03.190
and then they start to take it out on other people.

00:55:03.349 --> 00:55:05.469
So if you are nihilistic, that's not neutral.

00:55:05.949 --> 00:55:09.409
It gets bad real fast. So then I thought, well,

00:55:09.449 --> 00:55:13.550
are there any antidotes to meaninglessness? And

00:55:13.550 --> 00:55:16.050
rational antidotes are hard to come by, because

00:55:16.050 --> 00:55:18.289
you can just say, well, who cares if in a thousand

00:55:18.289 --> 00:55:20.590
years we're all going to be dead, why get out

00:55:20.590 --> 00:55:24.289
of bed in the morning? You can't really mount

00:55:24.289 --> 00:55:28.460
a rational case why that's not reasonable. I'm

00:55:28.460 --> 00:55:31.059
not saying it is reasonable, but I thought about

00:55:31.059 --> 00:55:34.960
music. Music is a very strange art form. I had

00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:38.079
a great journalist friend of mine. He said to

00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:41.559
me the other day, he said, all art aspires to

00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:44.019
the condition of music, which I thought was great.

00:55:44.179 --> 00:55:46.980
But music, you think about the revitalizing effect

00:55:46.980 --> 00:55:49.599
music continues to have in our culture, especially

00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:51.420
among young people. And that's really, really

00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:53.400
been the case since the beginning of the 60s.

00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:56.440
It's like... We got more nihilistic and less

00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:58.780
religious and all of that as our culture became

00:55:58.780 --> 00:56:02.880
more secular and more rational, more materialistic.

00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:05.639
And at the same time, the power of music as a

00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:08.000
cultural phenomenon just grew and grew and grew

00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:11.320
and grew. Music gives you the intimation of meaning

00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:15.599
directly. So I used to watch punk rockers. I

00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:17.500
went to a Ramones concert once, which was really

00:56:17.500 --> 00:56:20.340
fun. We were up in the second floor of this theater

00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:23.159
in Montreal, and the Ramones were playing on

00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:30.820
stage like 100 feet away with their huge stadium

00:56:30.820 --> 00:56:34.579
equipment. It was so loud in there. I had to

00:56:34.579 --> 00:56:36.280
listen to the whole concert with my ears plugged,

00:56:36.380 --> 00:56:37.940
and I was still like three -quarters deaf for

00:56:37.940 --> 00:56:41.539
three days. And beneath us on the... that stage

00:56:41.539 --> 00:56:43.420
sort of in front of the stage there was a flat

00:56:43.420 --> 00:56:45.460
place and all these punks were down there smashing

00:56:45.460 --> 00:56:48.519
into each other and and and and doing this this

00:56:48.519 --> 00:56:50.679
really rough dance and i thought this is so cool

00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:52.780
we got all these nihilistic punks in here like

00:56:52.780 --> 00:56:56.860
half beating themselves up dancing and in and

00:56:56.860 --> 00:57:01.519
and being taken in by this rough music that gave

00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:04.940
them even in their aggressive nihilism a sense

00:57:04.940 --> 00:57:07.420
of meaning i thought that was so cool so why

00:57:07.420 --> 00:57:10.639
does music do that That's a good question because

00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:13.039
people think of music as a non -representational

00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:15.800
art. It doesn't represent anything. It's not

00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:18.940
like a drawing or a picture or even dance where

00:57:18.940 --> 00:57:21.860
you can act something out. Really? Non -representational.

00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:24.260
I don't agree with that. What do you mean by

00:57:24.260 --> 00:57:26.480
music being non -representational? Well, it's

00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:29.480
not a picture of anything. Right, but it represents

00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:32.360
the feeling of the person who puts out the lyrics.

00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:34.239
Yeah. The feeling of the person who composes

00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:36.239
the music. True. It's got emotional content.

00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:38.679
That's fair enough because there's... There's

00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:40.559
unhappy music and there's happy music, minor

00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:42.699
keys and major. Definitely, it plays on emotions,

00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:47.000
for sure. But it doesn't represent anything like

00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:48.980
a picture represents it, let's say, or a sculpture.

00:57:49.059 --> 00:57:51.480
That's all I mean. I didn't say it was without

00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:53.960
content. I see what you're saying. We said representation.

00:57:54.099 --> 00:57:56.360
Well, you could say it represents emotions, and

00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:59.099
fair enough, fair enough. But I was thinking

00:57:59.099 --> 00:58:00.960
more like a picture of an actual thing. Okay,

00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:05.579
so let's think about what music is. First of

00:58:05.579 --> 00:58:09.980
all, it's a pattern. So, non -patterned music

00:58:09.980 --> 00:58:12.420
is noise. It's a pattern. But then it isn't one

00:58:12.420 --> 00:58:15.699
pattern. It's multiple patterns layered on top

00:58:15.699 --> 00:58:19.440
of one another in a harmonious manner and in

00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:24.019
a manner that indicates, in some sense, communication

00:58:24.019 --> 00:58:26.059
between all the patterned layers because they

00:58:26.059 --> 00:58:29.980
have to go together. And so, what's the world?

00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:32.860
Well, the world's made of objects. No, it's not.

00:58:32.980 --> 00:58:36.420
It's made of patterns. So, music is just like

00:58:36.420 --> 00:58:38.980
the world. Because the world's made of patterns.

00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:43.400
And then music has layered patterns that are

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:47.079
all moving together in a harmonious manner. And

00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:48.659
so what do you do when you hear that, especially

00:58:48.659 --> 00:58:50.900
if it's got a beat? Well, then you move your

00:58:50.900 --> 00:58:53.059
body. And you want to, right? The music calls

00:58:53.059 --> 00:58:55.599
to you to move your body. So now you're moving

00:58:55.599 --> 00:58:58.780
your body in sync with the patterned layers of

00:58:58.780 --> 00:59:01.730
the world. That's meaning. And then there's more

00:59:01.730 --> 00:59:04.650
to it. So that's so cool. Music is an analog

00:59:04.650 --> 00:59:07.329
of the structure of existence itself. And it

00:59:07.329 --> 00:59:10.050
calls to you to take part in that. So maybe you

00:59:10.050 --> 00:59:12.369
dance by yourself, or maybe even better, you

00:59:12.369 --> 00:59:14.650
dance with someone else. And so then you both

00:59:14.650 --> 00:59:17.590
bring your bodies into this patterned relationship

00:59:17.590 --> 00:59:21.860
with this. multi -layer harmony together in a

00:59:21.860 --> 00:59:24.480
spontaneous way, indicating that you can both

00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:27.300
play and are therefore potentially trustworthy

00:59:27.300 --> 00:59:31.440
future mates. That's unbelievably cool. And birds

00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:33.679
dance. It's not just human beings, you know.

00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:36.219
So this is a deep thing. And then music does

00:59:36.219 --> 00:59:39.099
something else, too. It puts you on the border

00:59:39.099 --> 00:59:42.500
between chaos and order, because a boring song

00:59:42.500 --> 00:59:46.309
does exactly what you expect it to do. and gets

00:59:46.309 --> 00:59:49.170
dull very quickly. And an unlistenable song is

00:59:49.170 --> 00:59:51.969
so random you can't follow it. And so what you

00:59:51.969 --> 00:59:57.170
want is predictability with a leaven of unpredictability.

00:59:57.429 --> 01:00:00.630
And then that puts you right on the edge. That's

01:00:00.630 --> 01:00:03.469
the zone of proximal development. Vygotsky discovered

01:00:03.469 --> 01:00:06.210
that. Like a Hendrix song. Yeah, like a Hendrix

01:00:06.210 --> 01:00:08.190
song. Well, any great music does that. Yeah,

01:00:08.190 --> 01:00:10.809
but I mean, Hendrix has so much... creativity

01:00:10.809 --> 01:00:12.909
inside the structure of the song because there's

01:00:12.909 --> 01:00:14.869
riffs that he'll do right right right and everyone

01:00:14.869 --> 01:00:17.050
loves oh man I went to this bar in Nashville

01:00:17.050 --> 01:00:19.730
this band was playing Kelly's Heroes a great

01:00:19.730 --> 01:00:22.670
guitarist best guitarist I've ever seen and they

01:00:22.670 --> 01:00:24.630
were playing old country music with a heavy blues

01:00:24.630 --> 01:00:28.670
rock twist so they do this great version of Ghost

01:00:28.670 --> 01:00:30.849
Riders in the Sky that's 15 minutes long and

01:00:30.849 --> 01:00:33.550
this brilliant guitarist just goes way out on

01:00:33.550 --> 01:00:36.409
a limb and Everybody in the crowd, it was so

01:00:36.409 --> 01:00:38.510
fun to be there. They're just thrilled to death

01:00:38.510 --> 01:00:40.409
because they're watching this man doing the same

01:00:40.409 --> 01:00:43.010
thing that surfers do. He's like dancing on the

01:00:43.010 --> 01:00:45.929
edge of chaos and order in this virtuosic manner.

01:00:46.210 --> 01:00:49.789
And everyone is so taken by that that it just

01:00:49.789 --> 01:00:52.929
lifts them out of the normality of their existence.

01:00:53.210 --> 01:00:57.610
You see this joy just transfuse them. And that's

01:00:57.610 --> 01:00:59.969
because they got an intimation of genuine meaning.

01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:04.440
And it's not amenable to rational criticism,

01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:07.219
which is the thing that I thought that struck

01:01:07.219 --> 01:01:09.159
me as so miraculous about music and why it has

01:01:09.159 --> 01:01:12.300
this element of salvation. It's like it puts

01:01:12.300 --> 01:01:15.360
you directly in touch with the meaning that sustains

01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:17.860
you in life, directly. And it shows you what

01:01:17.860 --> 01:01:20.340
that would be, which is something like to observe

01:01:20.340 --> 01:01:23.900
the harmonious interplay of the patterns of being

01:01:23.900 --> 01:01:27.070
stuck. on top of one another. And then to bring

01:01:27.070 --> 01:01:29.809
yourself into alignment with that, which is what

01:01:29.809 --> 01:01:32.469
yogis strive to do and what disciplined athletes

01:01:32.469 --> 01:01:35.309
strive to do and what we celebrate in athletics.

01:01:35.550 --> 01:01:38.230
And it's all a reflection of the same thing.

01:01:38.630 --> 01:01:43.150
And that's real. It's real, that meaning. It's

01:01:43.150 --> 01:01:45.590
real also in what it imparts on other people.

01:01:45.809 --> 01:01:49.690
It's not just, it doesn't exist in a vacuum.

01:01:50.509 --> 01:01:53.949
Like, even though people can play beautiful music

01:01:53.949 --> 01:01:56.949
when no one's around, it's not the same as playing

01:01:56.949 --> 01:02:00.090
beautiful music in front of people, because there's

01:02:00.090 --> 01:02:02.349
a thing that happens when people interact with

01:02:02.349 --> 01:02:04.590
that music. Well, you see that, you know, if

01:02:04.590 --> 01:02:06.409
you get lucky, you go to a music... I went to

01:02:06.409 --> 01:02:08.969
a Leonard Cohen concert, one of the ones he put

01:02:08.969 --> 01:02:11.610
on when he went on tour when he was old. He lost

01:02:11.610 --> 01:02:13.429
all his money when he was in a Buddhist monastery.

01:02:14.319 --> 01:02:16.199
dangers of being in a Buddhist monastery, by

01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:19.440
the way. Did he really? Yes, his manager Shanghai.

01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:21.079
Stole his money? Yeah, so he had to go back on

01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:22.920
tour, which turned out to be a great thing because

01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:25.380
he made way more money on that tour than he did,

01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:26.739
I think, in his whole life. Did he get a new

01:02:26.739 --> 01:02:29.539
manager? Yeah, it was an old friend of his as

01:02:29.539 --> 01:02:32.960
well. It was really a catastrophe. He got better

01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:34.719
and better as he got old, kind of like Johnny

01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:37.320
Cash, you know, because Cash got damn near transcendent

01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:39.780
just before he died. He put out some songs like

01:02:39.780 --> 01:02:42.019
The Man Comes Around that are just unbelievable.

01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.619
He wrote a book on St. Paul, by the way. He did?

01:02:45.780 --> 01:02:48.440
Yes, yes, he did. On St. Paul? Yes, yes, yes.

01:02:48.820 --> 01:02:51.219
Yeah, yeah, so that's pretty interesting. So

01:02:51.219 --> 01:02:54.659
Colin, when he came onto the stage, everybody

01:02:54.659 --> 01:02:56.719
gave him a standing ovation, and then he... He

01:02:56.719 --> 01:02:58.199
played his sets. And it was like a religious

01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:00.780
experience, you know. And every, well, it was.

01:03:00.820 --> 01:03:03.159
It was a religious experience in the most fundamental

01:03:03.159 --> 01:03:06.500
sense. And everybody in the audience was there

01:03:06.500 --> 01:03:09.659
in the same place at the same time doing the

01:03:09.659 --> 01:03:12.480
same thing with him, you know. And you know what

01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:14.719
that's like when you go to a great, well, that

01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:16.840
can happen too. I'm sure it happens to you at

01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:19.360
your comedy shows when the whole audience is

01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:22.199
united and the stories are unrolling and everyone's

01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:25.840
focused on it. It's not exactly the same thing.

01:03:26.179 --> 01:03:28.820
It's similar. There's a hive mind. Well, it's

01:03:28.820 --> 01:03:32.199
also the good comedians are right. They're like

01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:35.139
musicians. They're right on the border between

01:03:35.139 --> 01:03:38.380
order and chaos because the place of maximal

01:03:38.380 --> 01:03:42.119
funny is when you're just about pushing it too

01:03:42.119 --> 01:03:46.650
far. Right? You think, oh. Do I have to say this?

01:03:47.449 --> 01:03:50.130
You know, do I have to say this? Like, yeah,

01:03:50.150 --> 01:03:51.730
you have to say this. Oh, yeah, I'm going to

01:03:51.730 --> 01:03:54.050
say it. And everyone cracks up and they crack

01:03:54.050 --> 01:03:57.230
up, you know, and it blows apart their sterile

01:03:57.230 --> 01:03:59.590
preconceptions. That's part of cracking up, you

01:03:59.590 --> 01:04:02.010
know, when you laugh. And it's so cool because

01:04:02.010 --> 01:04:06.909
it's the antidote to their totalitarianism. And

01:04:06.909 --> 01:04:09.349
that's why you can tell anybody who goes after

01:04:09.349 --> 01:04:11.550
a comedian. It's like, oh, yeah, I know who you

01:04:11.550 --> 01:04:13.730
are. You're the king who can't stand the fool.

01:04:13.929 --> 01:04:17.269
That's the tyrant. So you reveal yourself, same

01:04:17.269 --> 01:04:19.369
as people who go after musicians or dancers.

01:04:19.789 --> 01:04:22.210
Well, I think people are going after comedy for

01:04:22.210 --> 01:04:24.309
a different thing today because they're going

01:04:24.309 --> 01:04:27.130
after comedy for a literal representation of

01:04:27.130 --> 01:04:28.750
what the words mean if you put them in print.

01:04:29.619 --> 01:04:32.340
And that's nonsense. Yeah. That's not what a

01:04:32.340 --> 01:04:33.719
comedian is doing. Well, they're doing that.

01:04:33.780 --> 01:04:35.840
They're doing that because there are some things

01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:38.500
they believe that can't be made fun of. Yeah,

01:04:38.500 --> 01:04:40.500
but really what they're doing is just looking

01:04:40.500 --> 01:04:43.059
for targets. They're playing a game. The rules

01:04:43.059 --> 01:04:46.380
of the game have been established. Comedy violates

01:04:46.380 --> 01:04:48.079
the rules of the game. Yeah, what are the rules?

01:04:48.099 --> 01:04:49.599
Because comedy take those things. Well, there's

01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:51.760
a lot of things you can't joke about. You can't

01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:54.039
joke about. Sacred things. Yeah, there's protected

01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:56.639
classes now. We all know who they are. We don't

01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:58.360
even have to bring them up. Whether it's trans

01:04:58.360 --> 01:05:02.099
people, gay people, people of color, Asian people,

01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:05.309
whatever those things are. One thing you can

01:05:05.309 --> 01:05:08.710
mock relentlessly is white people, specifically

01:05:08.710 --> 01:05:11.389
white males. Well, they are pretty funny, you

01:05:11.389 --> 01:05:13.489
know. Oh, sure. We're ridiculous. But there's

01:05:13.489 --> 01:05:16.210
a funny pejorative that people will say about

01:05:16.210 --> 01:05:20.230
a group of folks. They're primarily white males.

01:05:20.570 --> 01:05:24.150
That's a pejorative. It's my audience. That's

01:05:24.150 --> 01:05:26.289
what everyone says. Oh, you're talking to those

01:05:26.289 --> 01:05:29.329
angry young white males. But isn't that funny

01:05:29.329 --> 01:05:34.900
that that means something negative? It's not

01:05:34.900 --> 01:05:37.320
funny. It's horrible. But it's a horrible generalization

01:05:37.320 --> 01:05:40.199
because you're taking an enormous group of people

01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:42.840
and you're looking at their ethnic background

01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:46.139
and their gender and then you're dismissing them.

01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:48.119
Well, for a while, you know, because people kept

01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:50.119
coming and telling me that, you know, your audience

01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:53.179
is only angry white, young white men. I thought

01:05:53.179 --> 01:05:56.519
I kind of approached that wrong to begin with.

01:05:56.880 --> 01:05:59.260
I mean, I knew my audience was primarily male,

01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:01.780
as I suspect yours still is. But then I looked

01:06:01.780 --> 01:06:04.659
at the YouTube stats and 70 % of people who listen

01:06:04.659 --> 01:06:07.539
to YouTube were males. So the fact that 70 %

01:06:07.539 --> 01:06:10.199
of my audience was male was not an anomaly. It

01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:12.380
was just a consequence of the technology. What

01:06:12.380 --> 01:06:14.980
do you think that is? Why are 70 % of the people

01:06:14.980 --> 01:06:20.460
that watch YouTube male? Does that make any sense?

01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:22.539
Women are more interested in fiction than nonfiction.

01:06:23.059 --> 01:06:25.679
And men are... Opposite to that. So if you look

01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:28.019
at book buying preferences, for example, women

01:06:28.019 --> 01:06:30.500
tilt towards fiction and men tilt towards fiction.

01:06:30.900 --> 01:06:33.099
And if you want to know why that is, it's because

01:06:33.099 --> 01:06:36.079
the most reliable difference that psychologists

01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:38.639
have ever found between men and women, the biggest

01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:42.840
difference, is interest. So women are reliably

01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:45.619
more interested in people and men are reliably

01:06:45.619 --> 01:06:47.380
more interested in things. Now, there's still

01:06:47.380 --> 01:06:50.900
overlap. It's one standard deviation, which is

01:06:50.900 --> 01:06:55.409
a big difference. That isn't to say no women

01:06:55.409 --> 01:06:58.409
are interested in things, because some are, and

01:06:58.409 --> 01:07:01.050
no men are interested in people, because some

01:07:01.050 --> 01:07:03.750
are. Like, I'm a man who's more interested in

01:07:03.750 --> 01:07:05.789
people than things. That's why I'm a psychologist.

01:07:06.449 --> 01:07:08.630
You know, I actually have a relatively feminine

01:07:08.630 --> 01:07:10.670
personality structure, because I'm pretty high

01:07:10.670 --> 01:07:13.210
in negative emotion, and I'm pretty high in agreeableness.

01:07:13.659 --> 01:07:16.260
And that's the typical feminine structure. And

01:07:16.260 --> 01:07:18.320
that's an interesting discussion to have, too,

01:07:18.380 --> 01:07:20.059
because, you know, we have this idea in our culture

01:07:20.059 --> 01:07:23.099
that you can be a woman born in a man's body.

01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:26.820
And that's not true. But you can definitely be

01:07:26.820 --> 01:07:29.760
a man with a feminine personality structure.

01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:34.420
Like, 10 % of men are as feminine in their personality

01:07:34.420 --> 01:07:37.880
as the average woman is. And vice versa. 10 %

01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:39.760
of women are as masculine in their personality

01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:42.480
as the average man is. Now, you can move those

01:07:42.480 --> 01:07:45.460
boundaries around and say, well, it's 5 % and

01:07:45.460 --> 01:07:48.119
40 or something. It doesn't matter. But the point

01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:50.239
is there's plenty of men who are as feminine

01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:52.880
in their personality as the average woman. That

01:07:52.880 --> 01:07:54.500
doesn't mean they're in the wrong body. It just

01:07:54.500 --> 01:07:56.880
means that men and women are more alike than

01:07:56.880 --> 01:07:59.179
different, even though they are different, and

01:07:59.179 --> 01:08:01.280
that there's huge range within both genders.

01:08:01.639 --> 01:08:04.019
And we need to know this. So what do you think

01:08:04.019 --> 01:08:07.639
is happening with trans people then? Well, there's

01:08:07.639 --> 01:08:09.400
a lot of different kinds of trans people. Okay,

01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:12.519
trans men. Or, excuse me, trans women, men to

01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:15.500
female. Well, then I would say it depends on

01:08:15.500 --> 01:08:19.180
what period of time you're asking that question

01:08:19.180 --> 01:08:22.800
about. Right now, if you look at teenagers, for

01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:28.079
example, who want to switch genders, 95 % of

01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:31.500
them are unbearably confused. That's what's causing

01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:33.560
that. And I think there's other reasons, too.

01:08:33.659 --> 01:08:38.279
I think this is a conjecture. When the trans...

01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:42.439
teenagers came after me when I opposed Bill C

01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:45.119
-16 in Canada on compelled speech grounds. I

01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:47.460
spent quite a bit of time watching them. I already

01:08:47.460 --> 01:08:51.060
kind of knew about that fluid identity crowd.

01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:55.899
So when I was at Harvard, piercing and tattooing

01:08:55.899 --> 01:08:58.960
started to become a cultural rage. And I was

01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:00.859
interested in, well, who's doing this? Because

01:09:00.859 --> 01:09:04.260
I knew it was a practice that was limited to

01:09:04.260 --> 01:09:08.670
criminal subtypes and outcasts. For a long time.

01:09:08.729 --> 01:09:10.390
So, for example, if you worked in the circus,

01:09:10.529 --> 01:09:12.550
you were likely to be tattooed. You know, and

01:09:12.550 --> 01:09:15.229
you toured around the circus and that was a kind

01:09:15.229 --> 01:09:17.569
of carny life. And it was an outsider life. And

01:09:17.569 --> 01:09:19.409
if you were a prisoner, same thing. But then

01:09:19.409 --> 01:09:21.289
all of a sudden it started to make its inroads

01:09:21.289 --> 01:09:25.069
into the popular culture. So we studied a group

01:09:25.069 --> 01:09:28.850
of early adopters of tattooing and piercing from

01:09:28.850 --> 01:09:31.369
the perspective of personality. Like, who are

01:09:31.369 --> 01:09:34.010
these people? And they were all highly creative

01:09:34.010 --> 01:09:39.729
people. And creativity is a trait. And all people

01:09:39.729 --> 01:09:41.989
who aren't creative, that's wrong. In fact, most

01:09:41.989 --> 01:09:45.270
people aren't creative at all. And I can explain

01:09:45.270 --> 01:09:48.729
that later, but they're not. We developed a scale

01:09:48.729 --> 01:09:50.590
called the Creative Achievement Questionnaire,

01:09:50.590 --> 01:09:54.869
which assesses lifetime contribution to 13 different

01:09:54.869 --> 01:09:57.890
creative domains. And your scores would range

01:09:57.890 --> 01:10:00.250
from zero, I have no training or talent in this

01:10:00.250 --> 01:10:04.289
area, to, I think it was eight. I'm an internationally

01:10:04.289 --> 01:10:07.710
recognized expert in this area, right? And so

01:10:07.710 --> 01:10:11.970
70 % of people, if you sum their scores across

01:10:11.970 --> 01:10:16.609
all 13 domains, scored zero. And I ask audiences,

01:10:16.609 --> 01:10:20.829
like, how many portraits have you painted? Zero.

01:10:20.930 --> 01:10:23.630
How many songs have you composed? Zero. How many

01:10:23.630 --> 01:10:26.810
plays have you written? Zero. How many recipes

01:10:26.810 --> 01:10:29.750
have you invented? Let me stop you. The tattooed

01:10:29.750 --> 01:10:32.470
types, they were high in creativity. Okay. And

01:10:32.470 --> 01:10:34.289
a lot of these people who are fluid in their

01:10:34.289 --> 01:10:37.630
identity are actually high in trade openness.

01:10:37.750 --> 01:10:40.149
And they do have fluid identities. And some of

01:10:40.149 --> 01:10:44.270
them are feminine men and masculine women. So,

01:10:44.270 --> 01:10:47.130
yeah. But that doesn't mean that surgery is the

01:10:47.130 --> 01:10:51.789
cure for that. That does not mean that. Not at

01:10:51.789 --> 01:10:54.750
all. Well, what do you think it means when someone

01:10:54.750 --> 01:11:00.810
is so attracted to the idea that they were born

01:11:00.810 --> 01:11:03.350
in the wrong body? It means so much. They're

01:11:03.350 --> 01:11:04.970
so compelled that they're willing to go through

01:11:04.970 --> 01:11:07.529
surgery to change. God, it means all sorts of

01:11:07.529 --> 01:11:10.850
things. I knew a kid in Toronto who was on the

01:11:10.850 --> 01:11:13.010
autistic spectrum and a lot of the people who

01:11:13.010 --> 01:11:16.479
were manifesting serious. issues with gender

01:11:16.479 --> 01:11:18.479
identity are on the autistic spectrum. This is

01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:21.159
like Abigail Schreier's work and rapid onset

01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:23.500
gender dysphoria amongst women. Yeah, well, that's

01:11:23.500 --> 01:11:25.420
a different thing, the rapid onset. That's more

01:11:25.420 --> 01:11:27.760
like, so part of the reason I objected to Bill

01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:30.239
Seesaw 16 to begin with was because I knew full

01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:32.180
well as a clinician that as soon as we messed

01:11:32.180 --> 01:11:35.119
with fundamental sex categories and changed the

01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:37.979
terminology, we would fatally confuse thousands

01:11:37.979 --> 01:11:40.689
of young girls. I knew that because I knew the

01:11:40.689 --> 01:11:43.029
literature on psychological contagion. And it

01:11:43.029 --> 01:11:45.210
stretches back like 500 years, that literature,

01:11:45.430 --> 01:11:48.649
300 years. It's all outlined in a book by Henri

01:11:48.649 --> 01:11:51.789
Ellenberger called History of... History of...

01:11:51.789 --> 01:11:56.529
What's the name of the book? History of Psychoanalytic

01:11:56.529 --> 01:11:58.210
Ideas. It doesn't matter. It's Henri Ellenberger

01:11:58.210 --> 01:11:59.770
and it's his main work if you want to look it

01:11:59.770 --> 01:12:02.609
up. And so psychological contagions are very

01:12:02.609 --> 01:12:04.970
common. And so one of them, for example, was

01:12:04.970 --> 01:12:08.250
the satanic... ritual abuse accusations that

01:12:08.250 --> 01:12:10.590
emerged in daycares in the 1980s. And that was

01:12:10.590 --> 01:12:12.930
a consequence of women going into the workforce

01:12:12.930 --> 01:12:15.050
en masse, leaving their children with strangers

01:12:15.050 --> 01:12:17.250
and starting to have pathological fantasies about

01:12:17.250 --> 01:12:19.409
it, especially if they were borderline schizophrenic.

01:12:19.409 --> 01:12:21.770
And those fantasies propagated into the population.

01:12:22.810 --> 01:12:24.550
So what does this have to do with creativity?

01:12:24.789 --> 01:12:26.569
You were talking about creativity and people

01:12:26.569 --> 01:12:29.210
that are... Well, okay, so you see people with

01:12:29.210 --> 01:12:31.590
blue hair, the blue -haired crowd. Well, they're

01:12:31.590 --> 01:12:33.369
the same people that were doing tattooing and

01:12:33.369 --> 01:12:35.189
piercing, and they often are literally the same

01:12:35.189 --> 01:12:36.850
people because they have piercings. It's like,

01:12:36.869 --> 01:12:39.149
well, they have mutable identities. They're not

01:12:39.149 --> 01:12:43.149
stable in their identities. They're creative.

01:12:44.449 --> 01:12:46.770
Creative people, by definition, aren't stable

01:12:46.770 --> 01:12:49.029
in their identities. That's what makes them creative.

01:12:52.680 --> 01:12:56.140
Creativity is a high -risk, high -return strategy.

01:12:57.579 --> 01:13:01.819
Your new idea is probably stupid and wrong, and

01:13:01.819 --> 01:13:05.739
maybe it's fatal. But now and then it's unbelievably

01:13:05.739 --> 01:13:10.899
successful. And also, now and then, our culture

01:13:10.899 --> 01:13:14.340
would die without it. So we always have this

01:13:14.340 --> 01:13:16.100
problem, because we have to maintain stability,

01:13:16.460 --> 01:13:19.399
because otherwise everything degenerates into

01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:23.050
chaos. But mere stability won't work because

01:13:23.050 --> 01:13:25.550
the future is different from the past, like technically

01:13:25.550 --> 01:13:28.369
different, different in a non -deterministic

01:13:28.369 --> 01:13:31.750
way. It's actually different. And so then we

01:13:31.750 --> 01:13:34.210
have to figure out, well, how do we modify our

01:13:34.210 --> 01:13:37.329
memories or our traditions at a rate that enables

01:13:37.329 --> 01:13:39.850
us to keep up with the culture? And the answer

01:13:39.850 --> 01:13:43.149
to this is, in part, we let creative people play

01:13:43.149 --> 01:13:46.369
multiple games on the fringe, and some of them

01:13:46.369 --> 01:13:48.609
are radically successful, and then we copy them.

01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:51.779
So you think that a lot of what's going on with

01:13:51.779 --> 01:13:54.100
people that want to change their gender identity

01:13:54.100 --> 01:13:58.479
is creativity? No, I don't think so. I know so.

01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:00.539
You know so. Yeah, that's not all of it, but

01:14:00.539 --> 01:14:02.199
that's definitely part of it. But there are for

01:14:02.199 --> 01:14:07.560
sure a lot of people that transition, and there

01:14:07.560 --> 01:14:09.560
has been work on this that shows that if they

01:14:09.560 --> 01:14:11.119
didn't transition, they wanted to transition

01:14:11.119 --> 01:14:12.840
at one point in time, and then they eventually

01:14:12.840 --> 01:14:15.659
wound up becoming gay men. Yeah, that's definitely

01:14:15.659 --> 01:14:16.699
the case. Males to females, right? Yeah, well,

01:14:16.760 --> 01:14:20.010
it's confusing. Look, I mean... I also think,

01:14:20.029 --> 01:14:22.449
by the way, that part of what we're seeing in

01:14:22.449 --> 01:14:26.569
late adolescence with this insistence on the

01:14:26.569 --> 01:14:31.409
primacy of felt identity is the reemergence of

01:14:31.409 --> 01:14:35.670
suppressed fantasy play that should have taken

01:14:35.670 --> 01:14:40.470
place at between, say, three and five. That's

01:14:40.470 --> 01:14:43.260
been suppressed by... the imposition of technological

01:14:43.260 --> 01:14:45.939
artifacts like television and phones, and by

01:14:45.939 --> 01:14:48.199
the absence of free play among children who are

01:14:48.199 --> 01:14:51.340
hyper -supervised. So the fantasy play is imperative

01:14:51.340 --> 01:14:54.439
to develop your identity by trying out a bunch

01:14:54.439 --> 01:14:57.380
of different patterns of behavior and ways to

01:14:57.380 --> 01:15:04.539
be. Yes, so when my son was about two, his sister

01:15:04.539 --> 01:15:06.720
was about three and had a little gaggle of friends,

01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:09.300
and they used to dress him up like a fairy princess.

01:15:10.109 --> 01:15:12.409
And this didn't happen for like years. It happened

01:15:12.409 --> 01:15:14.569
for a couple of weeks, you know, and he was playing

01:15:14.569 --> 01:15:16.829
along. And I went down there and I'm a Northern

01:15:16.829 --> 01:15:19.409
Albertan, you know, and so the gender roles there

01:15:19.409 --> 01:15:21.729
were fairly finely defined. And I was watching

01:15:21.729 --> 01:15:25.170
this. I thought, is it really a good thing that

01:15:25.170 --> 01:15:28.289
he's like got wings on a little fairy hat and

01:15:28.289 --> 01:15:30.229
a wand and a dress? It's like, is that okay?

01:15:30.689 --> 01:15:33.890
And I talked to Tammy about it. I said, the girls

01:15:33.890 --> 01:15:37.130
are dressing Julian up like a princess. And it

01:15:37.130 --> 01:15:43.390
kind of... I have qualms about it, but I'm not

01:15:43.390 --> 01:15:45.609
sure what to do. Because he was having a good

01:15:45.609 --> 01:15:47.829
time, and he was playing with the girls. What

01:15:47.829 --> 01:15:50.569
qualms would you possibly have about that? Because

01:15:50.569 --> 01:15:53.510
from my personal experience of having daughters,

01:15:53.729 --> 01:15:57.869
they think it's funny to put me in a dress. It

01:15:57.869 --> 01:16:00.470
is funny. Yeah, well, there was a dress that

01:16:00.470 --> 01:16:02.829
my wife was throwing out, and my daughters made

01:16:02.829 --> 01:16:04.710
me put it on. They forced me to, and they took

01:16:04.710 --> 01:16:06.590
pictures of me. They thought it was hilarious.

01:16:06.850 --> 01:16:09.979
Yeah, yeah, my daughter... decorated me up like

01:16:09.979 --> 01:16:12.159
a woman one day in her makeup class. Right, so

01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:13.979
what's wrong with that? Nothing, right? It's

01:16:13.979 --> 01:16:16.359
just fun. Well, that's it. That's what I concluded.

01:16:16.760 --> 01:16:18.340
You know, I thought, well... But why would you

01:16:18.340 --> 01:16:20.520
worry about anything else other than it being

01:16:20.520 --> 01:16:24.359
fun? Well, probably because I had... Why was

01:16:24.359 --> 01:16:33.779
I worried about it? I suppose because I hoped

01:16:33.779 --> 01:16:37.359
that his pathway towards adulthood would be...

01:16:37.359 --> 01:16:41.220
Normal? Yeah, sure, sure. Normal biological male

01:16:41.220 --> 01:16:42.880
progression to marriage and children. Yeah, yeah,

01:16:42.979 --> 01:16:45.180
and so I saw this plague, but then I thought,

01:16:45.260 --> 01:16:48.220
I only had qualms for like about two hours. I

01:16:48.220 --> 01:16:49.760
went and thought about it. I thought, okay, what's

01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:52.399
going on here? Well, he's playing with the girls.

01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:57.180
Okay, should he play with girls? Yes, definitely

01:16:57.180 --> 01:17:00.520
he should play with girls. Absolutely. Adult

01:17:00.520 --> 01:17:03.199
males should play with women. Like, we should

01:17:03.199 --> 01:17:05.789
be able to play. With people of the opposite

01:17:05.789 --> 01:17:08.729
sex. So he's learning to play with the girls.

01:17:08.829 --> 01:17:12.829
Good. Is he enjoying it? Yes. Are they bullying

01:17:12.829 --> 01:17:16.390
him? No. Are the girls enjoying it? Yes. That's

01:17:16.390 --> 01:17:18.949
all good. Okay, so what does it mean he's playing

01:17:18.949 --> 01:17:24.630
at being a girl? Oh! He's trying to understand

01:17:24.630 --> 01:17:27.390
what it means to be a girl. Well, how do you

01:17:27.390 --> 01:17:29.949
understand that when you're three? Or maybe when

01:17:29.949 --> 01:17:34.560
you're 50? You play at it. which means you allow

01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:37.960
that pattern of being to inhabit you, and you

01:17:37.960 --> 01:17:41.220
experiment with it. Now, a lot of older transgender

01:17:41.220 --> 01:17:45.399
types, the late -onset types, they're playing.

01:17:46.460 --> 01:17:48.840
They just don't know it. Now, there are often

01:17:48.840 --> 01:17:51.420
people who have kind of a rigid identity, and

01:17:51.420 --> 01:17:53.319
part of their escape from that rigid identity

01:17:53.319 --> 01:17:56.619
is to develop some of the characteristics that

01:17:56.619 --> 01:17:59.399
are typical of the opposite sex. They need it.

01:17:59.500 --> 01:18:03.319
What is the term? There is a term. for a man

01:18:03.319 --> 01:18:07.359
who derives a lot of sexual pleasure. He's heterosexual,

01:18:07.560 --> 01:18:09.399
but he derives sexual... I think it's autogynephilia.

01:18:09.880 --> 01:18:11.979
Yes, that's it. Yeah, but I think the sexual...

01:18:11.979 --> 01:18:14.760
Fully explain that. Yeah, well, I don't think

01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:17.600
it does. I think the reason they derive... Because

01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:19.560
the question is, why do they derive sexual pleasure?

01:18:19.560 --> 01:18:20.960
Finish the sentence. You're not finishing the

01:18:20.960 --> 01:18:23.220
sentence. Explain what we're saying. Yeah, well,

01:18:23.319 --> 01:18:26.260
they derive sexual pleasure. They would get turned

01:18:26.260 --> 01:18:28.079
on by seeing themselves in the clothes of women.

01:18:28.140 --> 01:18:31.130
Yes. Or feeling it. Yes. But I think the... the

01:18:31.130 --> 01:18:34.890
sexual instinct is directing them towards personality

01:18:34.890 --> 01:18:37.510
expansion. I look at it in Jungian terms. So

01:18:37.510 --> 01:18:40.470
part of the process of personality expansion

01:18:40.470 --> 01:18:44.930
in the deep psychoanalytic sense is first you're

01:18:44.930 --> 01:18:48.930
a persona, or first you're nothing. Then you

01:18:48.930 --> 01:18:50.909
develop a persona, which is a way of presenting

01:18:50.909 --> 01:18:53.529
yourself in a socially acceptable way to the

01:18:53.529 --> 01:18:56.270
world. And maybe you confuse yourself with your

01:18:56.270 --> 01:18:58.989
persona. Now, you've had conversations with people

01:18:58.989 --> 01:19:02.130
on your podcast who are stiff and you can't get

01:19:02.130 --> 01:19:04.550
a dynamic conversation going. That's because

01:19:04.550 --> 01:19:06.670
they're acting out their persona. You're not

01:19:06.670 --> 01:19:08.810
really talking to them. You're talking to an

01:19:08.810 --> 01:19:11.130
act that they've constructed. It's a puppet.

01:19:11.289 --> 01:19:13.369
An act that they've constructed to make themselves

01:19:13.369 --> 01:19:15.609
socially acceptable to the world. And sometimes,

01:19:15.750 --> 01:19:18.159
maybe sometimes it's just anxiety. Yeah, sure.

01:19:18.279 --> 01:19:20.720
It can be anxiety, too. But then often, under

01:19:20.720 --> 01:19:23.020
anxious conditions, people will revert to their

01:19:23.020 --> 01:19:25.539
persona because it's a well -rehearsed set of

01:19:25.539 --> 01:19:28.000
routines and that they know is socially acceptable.

01:19:28.600 --> 01:19:32.760
Okay, so for the Jungians, the first step outside

01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:35.140
the persona was the shadow. Jungians being Carl

01:19:35.140 --> 01:19:37.840
Jung. Carl Jung, followers of Carl Jung, or students

01:19:37.840 --> 01:19:40.960
of better terminology, was discovery of the shadow.

01:19:41.600 --> 01:19:44.979
Oh, I thought I was the good person here, but

01:19:44.979 --> 01:19:47.479
it turns out that I've got... like some darkness.

01:19:47.720 --> 01:19:50.000
And you often see this with, imagine you have

01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:51.899
hyper -compassionate people who are dependent,

01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:54.800
and they won't engage in conflict, so they're

01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:57.779
always oppressed. And so then when you talk to

01:19:57.779 --> 01:19:59.960
them, you find out they're really, really resentful,

01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:02.600
and they have a lot of fantasies of revenge,

01:20:02.899 --> 01:20:06.460
like a lot. And so then you work with them, and

01:20:06.460 --> 01:20:09.460
you think, okay, you have something to say and

01:20:09.460 --> 01:20:13.600
do here. You've got some harsh words to say,

01:20:13.680 --> 01:20:16.100
maybe to your partner. You've got some things

01:20:16.100 --> 01:20:19.680
to say to your boss. You've got to spine up and

01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:22.539
say it. And that's part of incorporating that,

01:20:22.619 --> 01:20:25.539
especially aggression. So agreeable people, compassionate

01:20:25.539 --> 01:20:28.960
people, don't like aggression. But that's like

01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:34.119
not liking sex. It's dangerous. But it's necessary.

01:20:34.840 --> 01:20:37.220
And so you want to integrate it. And if you don't,

01:20:37.220 --> 01:20:40.300
it has its own life. You know, you see people

01:20:40.300 --> 01:20:42.850
all the time who, they're so nice. You can't

01:20:42.850 --> 01:20:44.170
even be in the same room with them. They're that

01:20:44.170 --> 01:20:49.770
nice. But they're resentful and passive -aggressive.

01:20:49.770 --> 01:20:51.850
They take it out in all sorts of ways, partly

01:20:51.850 --> 01:20:53.329
because they're always unhappy. They're often

01:20:53.329 --> 01:20:55.470
moralistically judgmental because they're not

01:20:55.470 --> 01:20:56.869
saying what they have to say. They've got to

01:20:56.869 --> 01:20:58.989
integrate that shadow. So that was part of it.

01:20:59.130 --> 01:21:02.310
And the shadow consists of, in part, all the

01:21:02.310 --> 01:21:04.729
things about you that you've deemed morally unacceptable

01:21:04.729 --> 01:21:08.289
and failed to develop. And so sometimes that's

01:21:08.289 --> 01:21:10.930
aggression, often. Sometimes it's sexuality.

01:21:11.839 --> 01:21:14.979
And so it'll manifest itself in impulsive, aggressive

01:21:14.979 --> 01:21:18.159
sexuality, say under conditions of alcohol intoxication

01:21:18.159 --> 01:21:21.600
when it leaks out. Aggressive, meaning like rough

01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:26.920
sex? Yeah, forced. Forced. Yeah, yeah. Definitely.

01:21:27.300 --> 01:21:30.920
Forced. So you mean like rape? Well, or it doesn't

01:21:30.920 --> 01:21:33.359
have to go all the way to rape. It can be like

01:21:33.359 --> 01:21:39.119
over -aggressive, sexual. compulsion in a dating

01:21:39.119 --> 01:21:43.600
situation. So does that account for certain men

01:21:43.600 --> 01:21:47.079
that like violence in their sex? Like they like

01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:50.760
abuse in their sex? Yes. Because there's a subset

01:21:50.760 --> 01:21:54.319
of men that like to hit women during sex. And

01:21:54.319 --> 01:21:57.979
a lot of them... turn out to be these like kind

01:21:57.979 --> 01:22:00.180
of male feminist types, which is really strange.

01:22:00.420 --> 01:22:03.420
No, it's not. But it's really strange on the

01:22:03.420 --> 01:22:06.020
outside. Definitely. It's strange to those men

01:22:06.020 --> 01:22:08.560
too, because it's often, it's very unsettling

01:22:08.560 --> 01:22:11.659
for them to see, you know, in the cloud of their

01:22:11.659 --> 01:22:15.060
niceness and their harmlessness, this deep, dark.

01:22:15.860 --> 01:22:18.300
Desire making itself manifest. Do you remember

01:22:18.300 --> 01:22:21.220
that case of that Canadian broadcaster? Who was

01:22:21.220 --> 01:22:24.199
this guy who was like really talks like this?

01:22:24.739 --> 01:22:27.920
Very calm and then a bunch of women came out

01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:29.619
the day to them said he beat the shit out of

01:22:29.619 --> 01:22:32.199
them And he would want to beat them up during

01:22:32.199 --> 01:22:35.180
sex. Mm -hmm, like really beat them up punch

01:22:35.180 --> 01:22:37.340
them in the face Yeah, well, you know, it's an

01:22:37.340 --> 01:22:39.600
open question how much assertiveness there should

01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:43.869
be in sex and that The answer is zero. No, I'm

01:22:43.869 --> 01:22:45.869
not saying in the least that that's acceptable.

01:22:46.069 --> 01:22:48.550
Let me be absolutely clear here. That's not acceptable

01:22:48.550 --> 01:22:50.770
at all. That's not assertiveness. No, it's not.

01:22:50.869 --> 01:22:57.270
It's repressed. It's repressed. It's what's repressed.

01:22:57.270 --> 01:22:59.229
There's no clearer way of saying it. It's like,

01:22:59.329 --> 01:23:03.229
look, many men are terrified of women. Many.

01:23:03.350 --> 01:23:08.289
And so that terror might manifest itself even

01:23:08.289 --> 01:23:11.760
in a relationship. in the inability to ever let

01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:15.039
the partner know what they really want. They're

01:23:15.039 --> 01:23:16.840
terrified for what reason? Because of rejection?

01:23:17.039 --> 01:23:20.079
Yeah. And then the feelings of inadequacy that

01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:23.439
produces, often which are necessary. They're

01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:25.640
necessary. Right. I was trying to explain this

01:23:25.640 --> 01:23:28.359
to a friend once where we had a friend of ours

01:23:28.359 --> 01:23:31.260
who had developed what seemed to be like a real

01:23:31.260 --> 01:23:34.000
hate for women. And he wasn't an attractive guy.

01:23:34.159 --> 01:23:35.939
And so we're having this conversation. And I

01:23:35.939 --> 01:23:38.560
said, imagine if all of your interactions with

01:23:38.560 --> 01:23:41.180
women hurt your feelings. And you're not a very

01:23:41.180 --> 01:23:43.720
thoughtful and introspective person. You would

01:23:43.720 --> 01:23:46.539
immediately associate women with negative feelings

01:23:46.539 --> 01:23:48.600
and you'd be angry about them. And that's what's

01:23:48.600 --> 01:23:51.159
happening to that guy. He got a bad roll of the

01:23:51.159 --> 01:23:53.399
dice in terms of his facial features and his

01:23:53.399 --> 01:23:56.899
genes. It just wasn't that good. And so girls

01:23:56.899 --> 01:24:00.699
were not interested in him. So he had developed

01:24:00.699 --> 01:24:03.880
this anger. And it was shocking. Welcome to the

01:24:03.880 --> 01:24:06.600
human race. Well, that's incels, right? Yeah.

01:24:06.840 --> 01:24:10.000
Well, it's not even incels. It's like, okay,

01:24:10.079 --> 01:24:12.140
so I'll finish one thought because we were talking

01:24:12.140 --> 01:24:15.199
about transsexualism. So the second stage of

01:24:15.199 --> 01:24:17.880
development in the Jungian sense is the integration

01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:22.180
of counter -sexual possibilities. So I just watched

01:24:22.180 --> 01:24:29.020
Joachim Phoenix in Joker. And he's a very charismatic

01:24:29.020 --> 01:24:32.210
actor. And I was thinking, oh, God, because he

01:24:32.210 --> 01:24:34.390
carried that whole movie on single handedly.

01:24:34.449 --> 01:24:36.510
It's a dark, dark movie. And it has to do with

01:24:36.510 --> 01:24:38.750
resentment. This man who was forced to be nice

01:24:38.750 --> 01:24:40.869
by his mother, you know, who turns out to be

01:24:40.869 --> 01:24:43.069
absolutely crazy and abused him like mad when

01:24:43.069 --> 01:24:45.829
he was a kid. And then he becomes this role model

01:24:45.829 --> 01:24:47.810
for the dissemination of complete catastrophe

01:24:47.810 --> 01:24:50.390
into the entire society. It's a story of Cain

01:24:50.390 --> 01:24:53.329
in part. But Phoenix really carries that. And

01:24:53.329 --> 01:24:55.270
part of the reason that he does that is because

01:24:55.270 --> 01:24:57.390
he creates a compelling character who's sympathetic.

01:24:57.649 --> 01:24:59.329
Like he can be sympathetic to him because he

01:24:59.329 --> 01:25:02.180
really did have. a hard life like really hard

01:25:02.180 --> 01:25:06.079
but phoenix is an extraordinarily charismatic

01:25:06.079 --> 01:25:09.420
person partly because he's so unbelievably he's

01:25:09.420 --> 01:25:13.520
masculine in his features and carved but he's

01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:17.439
so graceful every single thing he does in the

01:25:17.439 --> 01:25:20.020
entire movie is a dance like he's conscious of

01:25:20.020 --> 01:25:22.340
every single movement he makes every turn of

01:25:22.340 --> 01:25:25.989
his head is It's dance -like, and you can't take

01:25:25.989 --> 01:25:28.869
your eyes off it. And a lot of stellar performers

01:25:28.869 --> 01:25:31.390
had that ability to integrate, male performers

01:25:31.390 --> 01:25:33.890
had that ability to integrate that feminine grace

01:25:33.890 --> 01:25:37.029
into their masculine character. You saw that

01:25:37.029 --> 01:25:39.010
with Bowie, David Bowie. You saw it with Mick

01:25:39.010 --> 01:25:41.890
Jagger. They're good examples. A lot of those

01:25:41.890 --> 01:25:44.689
70s glam rockers were gender benders, long hair,

01:25:44.770 --> 01:25:48.050
a lot of flashy outfits. And they did show, and

01:25:48.050 --> 01:25:51.109
they weren't exactly androgynous. That's not

01:25:51.109 --> 01:25:54.340
the right way to think about it. is they manifested

01:25:54.340 --> 01:25:56.739
a higher -order integration of masculine and

01:25:56.739 --> 01:26:00.060
feminine, and that made them charismatic. That's

01:26:00.060 --> 01:26:01.739
Prince. He's the best example of that. Prince,

01:26:01.739 --> 01:26:05.500
sure, sure, sure, sure. And so that's high -order

01:26:05.500 --> 01:26:07.779
integration. And I would say that part of the

01:26:07.779 --> 01:26:11.979
compulsion between adult -onset transsexuality

01:26:11.979 --> 01:26:14.819
of the autogynephalic type is a consequence of

01:26:14.819 --> 01:26:18.100
the sexual instinct manifesting itself as a guide

01:26:18.100 --> 01:26:21.340
to the integration of... of personality across

01:26:21.340 --> 01:26:25.199
the sex divide. I'm sure you're familiar with

01:26:25.199 --> 01:26:27.920
Douglas Murray's work. Yes, and Murray, who's

01:26:27.920 --> 01:26:29.859
very funny, who I like very much, and who's one

01:26:29.859 --> 01:26:31.779
of the most courageous people I've ever met.

01:26:31.939 --> 01:26:35.479
Yeah, he's brilliant. And he had an amazing point

01:26:35.479 --> 01:26:39.789
about... civilizations collapsing and that when

01:26:39.789 --> 01:26:41.869
they start collapsing, they become obsessed with

01:26:41.869 --> 01:26:45.569
gender. And he was saying that you could trace

01:26:45.569 --> 01:26:47.949
it back to the ancient Romans, the Greeks. Yeah,

01:26:48.029 --> 01:26:50.609
Camille Pellia has made much of that. I think

01:26:50.609 --> 01:26:53.810
probably it's not so much an obsession with gender,

01:26:53.949 --> 01:26:57.250
it's a disintegration of categories as a precursor.

01:26:57.310 --> 01:27:01.229
So it's a marker for if categories dissolve,

01:27:02.590 --> 01:27:06.260
especially fundamental ones. The culture is dissolving

01:27:06.260 --> 01:27:09.039
because the culture is a structure of category.

01:27:09.460 --> 01:27:13.119
That's what it is. So in fact, culture is a structure

01:27:13.119 --> 01:27:20.619
of category that we all share. So we see things

01:27:20.619 --> 01:27:23.300
the same way. Well, that's why we can talk. I

01:27:23.300 --> 01:27:24.920
mean, not exactly the same way because then we'd

01:27:24.920 --> 01:27:27.739
have nothing to talk about. But roughly speaking,

01:27:28.039 --> 01:27:31.779
we have a bedrock of agreement. That's the Bible,

01:27:31.859 --> 01:27:36.890
by the way. So I just walked through the Museum

01:27:36.890 --> 01:27:39.250
of the Bible in Washington. That was very cool.

01:27:39.270 --> 01:27:41.710
It's a very cool museum. So the structure, that's

01:27:41.710 --> 01:27:42.949
what the Bible provides. Yeah, that's what I

01:27:42.949 --> 01:27:44.810
figured out. I just figured this out this week.

01:27:45.569 --> 01:27:48.869
So it was a cool thing to walk through because

01:27:48.869 --> 01:27:52.390
it's chronological. They have one floor, which

01:27:52.390 --> 01:27:55.289
is the history of the Bible. But it's not exactly

01:27:55.289 --> 01:27:57.689
that. It's really what it is, is the history

01:27:57.689 --> 01:28:02.350
of the book. Now, in many ways, the first book

01:28:02.350 --> 01:28:05.960
was the Bible. I mean, literally. Because at

01:28:05.960 --> 01:28:08.979
one point there was only one book, as far as

01:28:08.979 --> 01:28:10.560
our Western culture is concerned. There was one

01:28:10.560 --> 01:28:13.539
book. And for a while, literally, there was only

01:28:13.539 --> 01:28:15.760
one book. And that book was the Bible. And then

01:28:15.760 --> 01:28:18.720
before it was the Bible, it was scrolls and it

01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:21.760
was writings on papyrus. But we were starting

01:28:21.760 --> 01:28:24.779
to aggregate written text together. And it went

01:28:24.779 --> 01:28:26.939
through all sorts of technological transformations.

01:28:26.960 --> 01:28:29.510
And then it became... books that everybody could

01:28:29.510 --> 01:28:31.369
buy, the book everybody could buy. And the first

01:28:31.369 --> 01:28:33.270
one of those was the Bible. And then it became

01:28:33.270 --> 01:28:35.170
all sorts of books that everybody could buy.

01:28:36.289 --> 01:28:39.289
But all those books, in some sense, emerged out

01:28:39.289 --> 01:28:41.750
of that underlying book. And that book itself,

01:28:42.010 --> 01:28:44.569
the Bible isn't a book, it's a library. It's

01:28:44.569 --> 01:28:48.770
a collection of books. And so what I figured

01:28:48.770 --> 01:28:51.649
out was, partly because I was talking to my brother

01:28:51.649 --> 01:28:55.069
-in -law, Jim Keller, who's the world's greatest

01:28:55.069 --> 01:28:59.369
chip. and has now designed a chip that's as powerful

01:28:59.369 --> 01:29:01.689
as the human brain, which is optimized for artificial

01:29:01.689 --> 01:29:05.109
intelligence learning, by the way. And so I talked

01:29:05.109 --> 01:29:06.890
to him about that. He said, you heard of the

01:29:06.890 --> 01:29:09.550
Internet? I said, yeah, Jim, I've heard of the

01:29:09.550 --> 01:29:12.149
Internet. He said, this is way more revolutionary

01:29:12.149 --> 01:29:16.649
than that. So in any case, we were talking about

01:29:16.649 --> 01:29:19.229
meaning in text because we were talking about

01:29:19.229 --> 01:29:20.970
translation and the problem of understanding

01:29:20.970 --> 01:29:24.789
text. And Jim said, The meaning of words is coded

01:29:24.789 --> 01:29:26.810
in the relationship of the words to one another.

01:29:27.289 --> 01:29:29.649
And the postmodernists make that case, that all

01:29:29.649 --> 01:29:31.449
meaning is derived from the relationship between

01:29:31.449 --> 01:29:35.430
words. That's wrong, because, well, what about

01:29:35.430 --> 01:29:37.970
rage? That's not words. And what about moving

01:29:37.970 --> 01:29:40.409
your hand? That's not words. So it's wrong, but

01:29:40.409 --> 01:29:44.449
part of it's right, because the meaning we derive

01:29:44.449 --> 01:29:47.829
from the verbal domain is encoded in the relationship

01:29:47.829 --> 01:29:52.699
between words. So now then you think, well, let's

01:29:52.699 --> 01:29:54.340
think about the relationship between words. Well,

01:29:54.420 --> 01:29:56.199
some words are dependent on other words. Some

01:29:56.199 --> 01:29:59.220
ideas are dependent on other ideas. The more

01:29:59.220 --> 01:30:02.500
ideas are dependent on a given idea, the more

01:30:02.500 --> 01:30:05.939
fundamental that idea is. That's a definition

01:30:05.939 --> 01:30:09.000
of fundamental. So now imagine you have an aggregation

01:30:09.000 --> 01:30:12.140
of texts in a civilization. You say, which are

01:30:12.140 --> 01:30:15.220
the fundamental texts? And the answer is, the

01:30:15.220 --> 01:30:18.369
texts upon which most other texts depend. And

01:30:18.369 --> 01:30:20.430
so you'd put Shakespeare way in there in English

01:30:20.430 --> 01:30:23.789
because so many texts are dependent on Shakespeare's

01:30:23.789 --> 01:30:26.909
literary revelations. And Milton would be in

01:30:26.909 --> 01:30:29.130
that category, and Dante would be in that category,

01:30:29.149 --> 01:30:31.729
at least in translation. Fundamental authors,

01:30:31.890 --> 01:30:34.409
part of the Western canon, not because of the

01:30:34.409 --> 01:30:37.850
arbitrary dictates of power, but because those

01:30:37.850 --> 01:30:40.210
texts influenced more other texts. And then you

01:30:40.210 --> 01:30:43.449
think about that as a hierarchy, okay, with the

01:30:43.449 --> 01:30:46.449
Bible at its base, which is certainly the case.

01:30:47.239 --> 01:30:49.859
Now, imagine that's the entire corpus of linguistic

01:30:49.859 --> 01:30:53.600
production, all things considered. Now, how do

01:30:53.600 --> 01:30:55.979
you understand that? Like, literally, how do

01:30:55.979 --> 01:30:59.060
you understand that? The answer is, you sample

01:30:59.060 --> 01:31:01.859
it by reading and listening to stories and listening

01:31:01.859 --> 01:31:04.000
to people talk. You sample that whole domain,

01:31:04.239 --> 01:31:07.060
you build a low -resolution representation of

01:31:07.060 --> 01:31:12.779
that inside you, and then you listen and see

01:31:12.779 --> 01:31:16.930
through that. And so it isn't that the Bible

01:31:16.930 --> 01:31:20.989
is true. It's that the Bible is the precondition

01:31:20.989 --> 01:31:24.770
for the manifestation of truth, which makes it

01:31:24.770 --> 01:31:28.270
way more true than just true. It's a whole different

01:31:28.270 --> 01:31:31.750
kind of true. And I think this is not only literally

01:31:31.750 --> 01:31:35.010
the case. Factually, I think it can't be any

01:31:35.010 --> 01:31:37.829
other way. It's the only way we can solve the

01:31:37.829 --> 01:31:40.670
problem of perception. You said the precondition

01:31:40.670 --> 01:31:42.869
of the manifestation of truth? Yeah. What do

01:31:42.869 --> 01:31:46.210
you mean by that? How do you know when what you

01:31:46.210 --> 01:31:49.069
and I are saying is true? Well, it depends on

01:31:49.069 --> 01:31:51.649
what we're saying. Not exactly. You know this,

01:31:51.649 --> 01:31:54.390
Joe. The fact that you're so popular, this is

01:31:54.390 --> 01:31:56.829
a mystery. And I've been tweeting about it while

01:31:56.829 --> 01:31:59.310
people have been attacking you. Why is Joe Rogan

01:31:59.310 --> 01:32:01.229
so popular? He's a gateway to the alt -right.

01:32:01.310 --> 01:32:03.550
It's like, no, he's a psychedelic hippie. That's

01:32:03.550 --> 01:32:08.069
a stupid hypothesis. That's wrong. Well, he's

01:32:08.069 --> 01:32:13.350
a propagandist. It's like, no. Joe is an honest

01:32:13.350 --> 01:32:17.539
man. And he actually says what he believes to

01:32:17.539 --> 01:32:20.579
be true. But let's think about that. Because

01:32:20.579 --> 01:32:25.020
that isn't exactly what you do. You follow the

01:32:25.020 --> 01:32:28.399
conversation and you listen. And you spontaneously

01:32:28.399 --> 01:32:34.500
manifest words that indicate your reaction. And

01:32:34.500 --> 01:32:36.840
it isn't the words themselves exactly that are

01:32:36.840 --> 01:32:38.579
true, because you might be wrong and you might

01:32:38.579 --> 01:32:40.439
be right, right? I mean, what do you know or

01:32:40.439 --> 01:32:42.199
what I know? We're going to be wrong a bunch

01:32:42.199 --> 01:32:46.279
during this conversation. The process that we're

01:32:46.279 --> 01:32:49.760
manifesting in the discovery of truth and untruth,

01:32:49.920 --> 01:32:54.800
that's not wrong. That's exactly right. And you

01:32:54.800 --> 01:32:57.340
know when we're doing it because it's so engaging.

01:32:57.500 --> 01:32:59.939
The process that we're manifesting. You bet.

01:33:00.020 --> 01:33:04.220
Meaning? The mutual exploration of structures

01:33:04.220 --> 01:33:07.619
of truth through dialogue. In good faith. In

01:33:07.619 --> 01:33:09.500
good faith. In good faith. That's the most important

01:33:09.500 --> 01:33:13.550
thing. Yes. And then we could ask, well, what

01:33:13.550 --> 01:33:16.869
does in good faith mean? Okay, so first of all,

01:33:16.909 --> 01:33:20.409
I can trust you. And that's been my experience.

01:33:20.630 --> 01:33:22.689
You've never played games with me. We disagree.

01:33:22.930 --> 01:33:27.090
That's fun. I can trust you. You don't play games.

01:33:27.729 --> 01:33:30.470
I can talk to you. You listen and you say things.

01:33:30.590 --> 01:33:32.930
We have a conversation. It's real. It's fun.

01:33:33.069 --> 01:33:36.050
We fall into it. The time flies by, right? That's

01:33:36.050 --> 01:33:40.029
a cool thing. that the burden of temporal mortality

01:33:40.029 --> 01:33:44.350
lifts in the face of genuine dialogue. You think,

01:33:44.390 --> 01:33:46.109
well, there's a marker for paradisal meaning.

01:33:46.369 --> 01:33:48.670
It's like a bit of transcendence of death right

01:33:48.670 --> 01:33:50.409
there and then. You think, no, it's not. It's

01:33:50.409 --> 01:33:53.090
like, yeah, yeah, you go for five years without

01:33:53.090 --> 01:33:55.970
a meaningful conversation and see if you're dead.

01:33:56.270 --> 01:33:58.010
Because if you're not, you're sure going to want

01:33:58.010 --> 01:34:02.060
to be. Well, it's akin to isolation. Hmm. I mean,

01:34:02.100 --> 01:34:04.819
you can be around people but not have a good

01:34:04.819 --> 01:34:06.920
conversation and you might as well be isolated.

01:34:07.300 --> 01:34:08.819
You are isolated. Yeah, you are. In the prison

01:34:08.819 --> 01:34:11.079
of your own thoughts. That's the problem if you

01:34:11.079 --> 01:34:14.180
do, like, if you are stuck somewhere where the

01:34:14.180 --> 01:34:16.720
only conversation that's available is with dull

01:34:16.720 --> 01:34:19.659
people. Like, if you have a job and the people

01:34:19.659 --> 01:34:22.319
at the job are like your friend who was on cocaine

01:34:22.319 --> 01:34:24.239
and alcohol and wound up dying from it. Like,

01:34:24.279 --> 01:34:26.340
those kinds of people, if you're only around

01:34:26.340 --> 01:34:29.680
them, it can severely limit. the way you express

01:34:29.680 --> 01:34:32.899
yourself and the way you see the world and the

01:34:32.899 --> 01:34:36.079
amount of stimulation you get out of interacting

01:34:36.079 --> 01:34:40.760
with people. So it'll inhibit your intellectual

01:34:40.760 --> 01:34:43.439
development because you won't be interested in

01:34:43.439 --> 01:34:46.300
expanding ideas and you may look to escape. It

01:34:46.300 --> 01:34:49.800
inhibits not just your intellectual development

01:34:49.800 --> 01:34:54.020
but the entire unfolding of your existence. One

01:34:54.020 --> 01:34:57.399
of the things that I hope to talk to people about

01:34:57.500 --> 01:35:03.420
a lot about on this tour is the idea that there's,

01:35:03.579 --> 01:35:07.680
I did a series on Genesis that became quite popular,

01:35:07.720 --> 01:35:10.380
and one of the stories I analyzed was the story

01:35:10.380 --> 01:35:12.739
of Abraham's very cool story, because Abraham's

01:35:12.739 --> 01:35:14.859
like 80 years old, living in his father's tent,

01:35:15.039 --> 01:35:18.060
talk about failure to launch, and God shows up

01:35:18.060 --> 01:35:19.920
one day and says, you have to leave everything

01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:23.840
you know and journey out into the unknown. And

01:35:23.840 --> 01:35:26.789
you think, well, what is that? Well, that's the

01:35:26.789 --> 01:35:30.609
call to adventure. That's what it is. And so,

01:35:30.729 --> 01:35:32.930
and what happens to Abraham is it's a bloody

01:35:32.930 --> 01:35:34.689
catastrophe. Like, the first thing he runs into

01:35:34.689 --> 01:35:36.869
is a war, and then he goes into a totalitarian

01:35:36.869 --> 01:35:39.069
state, Egypt, and they try to steal his wife,

01:35:39.149 --> 01:35:42.529
and it's like, man, he's thinking, things are

01:35:42.529 --> 01:35:46.170
pretty good in that tent. But, well, he goes

01:35:46.170 --> 01:35:48.329
on this tremendous adventure, and then he's the

01:35:48.329 --> 01:35:51.979
forefather of, you know... biblically speaking,

01:35:52.199 --> 01:35:55.180
half the people on the planet. He has this tremendous

01:35:55.180 --> 01:35:57.880
adventure. Think, well, what do you set against

01:35:57.880 --> 01:36:01.539
the suffering of your life? Well, the adventure

01:36:01.539 --> 01:36:04.199
of your life. That's what you set against it.

01:36:04.220 --> 01:36:07.039
It's not safety. Forget about that. There's no

01:36:07.039 --> 01:36:10.100
safety for mortals. That's for sure. And besides,

01:36:10.380 --> 01:36:15.300
safety? That's what you want? You don't want

01:36:15.300 --> 01:36:17.159
that. You want adventure. So then the question

01:36:17.159 --> 01:36:19.560
is, where's adventure to be found? In exploitation.

01:36:20.890 --> 01:36:23.409
Well, try it and see. Hell is to be found in

01:36:23.409 --> 01:36:26.869
exploitation. How about truth? Who thinks adventure

01:36:26.869 --> 01:36:28.869
is to be found in exploitation? Well, that's

01:36:28.869 --> 01:36:30.670
kind of the claim that everything's about power.

01:36:32.909 --> 01:36:35.350
Everything's motivated by power. Is that really

01:36:35.350 --> 01:36:37.920
what people say, though? Who says that? All the

01:36:37.920 --> 01:36:40.140
postmodernists all say that. That's such a silly

01:36:40.140 --> 01:36:41.420
expression. Yeah, but that is what they say.

01:36:41.420 --> 01:36:43.399
What about love? Is love motivated by power?

01:36:43.420 --> 01:36:46.359
Yes. That's why they distrust love. Is art motivated

01:36:46.359 --> 01:36:48.500
by power? Yes. It's the mouthpiece of political

01:36:48.500 --> 01:36:50.479
ideology. When you're making paintings, that's

01:36:50.479 --> 01:36:52.380
motivated by power? Yes, because you want to

01:36:52.380 --> 01:36:54.520
climb up the socioeconomic status hierarchy.

01:36:55.000 --> 01:36:59.079
By painting? Play the stock market. That's ridiculous.

01:36:59.079 --> 01:37:00.920
You're just not very good at it. Okay, what about

01:37:00.920 --> 01:37:04.369
music? Same thing. Motivated by power. You bet.

01:37:04.529 --> 01:37:06.489
Everything's motivated by power. Well, that was

01:37:06.489 --> 01:37:09.029
the answer that came out of France in the 1970s,

01:37:09.029 --> 01:37:10.649
and that was the answer that all the universities

01:37:10.649 --> 01:37:14.210
accepted. Why do you think the whole cultural

01:37:14.210 --> 01:37:16.609
critique is patriarchal oppression? Don't you

01:37:16.609 --> 01:37:19.470
think that that is done a lot by people that

01:37:19.470 --> 01:37:22.329
have not taken those chances, that diminishing

01:37:22.329 --> 01:37:25.829
of effort by calling a painter or a musician

01:37:25.829 --> 01:37:28.189
and saying that those people are motivated by

01:37:28.189 --> 01:37:32.220
power? These are from career intellectuals who

01:37:32.220 --> 01:37:35.500
don't venture outside of the universities. They

01:37:35.500 --> 01:37:37.819
don't venture outside the prisons of their own

01:37:37.819 --> 01:37:40.020
imagination. Or the echo chambers that exist.

01:37:40.119 --> 01:37:42.140
Yeah, yeah. No, I think a tremendous amount of

01:37:42.140 --> 01:37:43.619
it. I mean, this was Nietzsche's observation

01:37:43.619 --> 01:37:46.680
and Orwell's too. A lot of that's motivated by

01:37:46.680 --> 01:37:48.659
resentment. Tremendous amount of it. I think

01:37:48.659 --> 01:37:50.979
that's 100 % true. And I think we should be very

01:37:50.979 --> 01:37:53.840
careful people aren't charitable. Very careful

01:37:53.840 --> 01:37:56.159
people aren't nice. And people that, I mean,

01:37:56.220 --> 01:37:59.899
there's people that make a career. Just insulting

01:37:59.899 --> 01:38:02.039
and shitting on people all the time. And they

01:38:02.039 --> 01:38:04.539
never can look at things from that person's perspective.

01:38:04.539 --> 01:38:07.220
Well, that is the expression of power then. Yes.

01:38:07.260 --> 01:38:09.420
Yeah, I always think you think everything's about

01:38:09.420 --> 01:38:11.479
power. It's like that's a confession, buddy.

01:38:11.539 --> 01:38:14.600
The problem with that is it also attacks your

01:38:14.600 --> 01:38:18.560
own perceptions of yourself. Yes. Because you

01:38:18.560 --> 01:38:20.520
know who you are. You know what you're doing.

01:38:20.760 --> 01:38:22.819
You know, if you're just doing that. Yeah, well,

01:38:22.859 --> 01:38:25.100
what attitude do you have to yourself if you

01:38:25.100 --> 01:38:27.449
believe the only... true expression of human

01:38:27.449 --> 01:38:29.449
existence is to be found in the will to power.

01:38:29.550 --> 01:38:31.409
It's crazy. It's like, okay, you're a psychopath.

01:38:31.729 --> 01:38:34.649
Right. And even more when you're pretending not

01:38:34.649 --> 01:38:37.050
to be. Exactly. God, a dismal viewpoint. What

01:38:37.050 --> 01:38:39.850
about friendship? Like, is that power too? It's

01:38:39.850 --> 01:38:43.850
all manipulation. That's great. That's a person

01:38:43.850 --> 01:38:45.670
who's never hung out with good buddies. Yeah,

01:38:45.689 --> 01:38:48.250
that's for sure. Ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. The

01:38:48.250 --> 01:38:52.329
best part of... is laughing and joking around

01:38:52.329 --> 01:38:53.569
with each other. Yeah, that's for sure. That's

01:38:53.569 --> 01:38:55.590
the play, for sure, absolutely. It's the best

01:38:55.590 --> 01:38:57.350
part. Yeah, well, so you know, if you're in a

01:38:57.350 --> 01:39:00.250
humorless group, what's going on. But that's

01:39:00.250 --> 01:39:02.130
the same thing as killing the comedians. It's

01:39:02.130 --> 01:39:04.149
the same thing. That is an issue with people

01:39:04.149 --> 01:39:06.350
without humor. It is a problem. Because if they're

01:39:06.350 --> 01:39:08.569
not capable of generating it themselves, they

01:39:08.569 --> 01:39:10.109
resent it, for sure. Well, that's another reason

01:39:10.109 --> 01:39:13.069
why I trust you. I've watched your comedy specials.

01:39:13.090 --> 01:39:15.630
It's like, oh yeah, he's funny. He's actually

01:39:15.630 --> 01:39:18.449
funny. Like, seriously funny. Like, seriously

01:39:18.449 --> 01:39:24.039
funny. Because you go very dark places very successfully.

01:39:24.359 --> 01:39:26.920
And it's very funny to watch. It's like, is he

01:39:26.920 --> 01:39:29.800
really going to do that? Well, thank you. Your

01:39:29.800 --> 01:39:32.119
Kardashian devil is like, that's one of the funniest

01:39:32.119 --> 01:39:34.229
things I've ever seen. And it's dark. You know,

01:39:34.250 --> 01:39:36.569
that's a good indication of that investigation

01:39:36.569 --> 01:39:39.010
of the shadows, right? You went way in there.

01:39:39.090 --> 01:39:42.250
What spirit is possessing this manifestation?

01:39:43.789 --> 01:39:47.970
Satanic spirit crouching on a bedpost. So funny.

01:39:48.090 --> 01:39:50.289
I couldn't believe you did it. It's really hilarious.

01:39:50.689 --> 01:39:53.869
Well, I was trying to figure out a way to attack

01:39:53.869 --> 01:39:56.329
a sacred cow. I know, and you did it. You didn't

01:39:56.329 --> 01:39:58.050
get canceled for it either, which is amazing.

01:39:58.130 --> 01:40:02.739
I attacked myself. Yeah. Far more than I attacked

01:40:02.739 --> 01:40:05.239
that. Yeah, well, that's what I did. That's also

01:40:05.239 --> 01:40:07.319
the sign of someone who's got their sense of

01:40:07.319 --> 01:40:08.720
humor. That's one of the things I really like

01:40:08.720 --> 01:40:10.680
about English comedians in particular. The English

01:40:10.680 --> 01:40:12.039
are really good at making fun of themselves.

01:40:12.220 --> 01:40:14.359
Yes. And the Monty Python troupe was particularly

01:40:14.359 --> 01:40:16.300
good at that. Yeah, they were brilliant at it.

01:40:16.560 --> 01:40:21.039
Well, it's the people who don't like comedy.

01:40:21.659 --> 01:40:24.079
I mean, you cannot like comedy, but that means

01:40:24.079 --> 01:40:26.560
you don't like good conversation. That means

01:40:26.560 --> 01:40:29.680
you don't like camaraderie or you're incapable

01:40:29.680 --> 01:40:32.619
of it. And there are some people that are brilliant

01:40:32.619 --> 01:40:35.760
people that don't like comedy. They don't like

01:40:35.760 --> 01:40:40.180
conversation. They're brilliant at very specific,

01:40:40.300 --> 01:40:42.840
maybe non -social things. And maybe they're brilliant

01:40:42.840 --> 01:40:45.319
at engineering or maybe they're brilliant at

01:40:45.319 --> 01:40:47.159
mathematics or maybe they're brilliant at something

01:40:47.159 --> 01:40:51.369
that doesn't require. The kind of back and forth

01:40:51.369 --> 01:40:54.470
play. Yeah. The play. They can't play. Yeah.

01:40:54.550 --> 01:40:57.869
That's so important. My favorite people to hang

01:40:57.869 --> 01:41:01.090
out with are all funny. Absolutely. Yeah. My

01:41:01.090 --> 01:41:03.529
favorite friends. I'm going to New York. So I'm

01:41:03.529 --> 01:41:05.449
going on a 40 city tour, which is going to be,

01:41:05.489 --> 01:41:08.010
I hope, playful and fun, you know, as well as

01:41:08.010 --> 01:41:11.359
serious because we're trying to. maintain a spirit

01:41:11.359 --> 01:41:14.800
of play while we undertake it. That's part of

01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:17.579
the goal. And I'm inviting some old friends from

01:41:17.579 --> 01:41:19.779
high school to join me in New York. And they

01:41:19.779 --> 01:41:22.159
were this group of people that I knew who were

01:41:22.159 --> 01:41:24.439
competitive comedians, essentially. And all we

01:41:24.439 --> 01:41:27.340
ever did when we hung out together, all of the

01:41:27.340 --> 01:41:33.069
status jockeying was all... Who's the funniest?

01:41:33.130 --> 01:41:35.550
Who can say the most outrageous thing? And take

01:41:35.550 --> 01:41:38.710
it, too. Yes. Oh, you have to take it. Oh, we

01:41:38.710 --> 01:41:41.710
take it. So that's so fun. And I missed that.

01:41:41.810 --> 01:41:44.210
I found it was really characteristic, that culture

01:41:44.210 --> 01:41:49.029
of healthy, working -class groups, affiliative

01:41:49.029 --> 01:41:51.029
groups. And as I sort of climbed the intellectual

01:41:51.029 --> 01:41:54.489
ladder, I found a lot of that fell away. It does.

01:41:54.550 --> 01:41:56.350
And I missed it a lot. You know who's really

01:41:56.350 --> 01:42:00.409
good at it? Sam Harris. Sam Harris's lectures

01:42:00.409 --> 01:42:03.270
and his debates and his conversation, one of

01:42:03.270 --> 01:42:05.550
the things that really highlights them is his

01:42:05.550 --> 01:42:09.149
humor. Like, he has a wonderful way of making

01:42:09.149 --> 01:42:14.109
things seem really silly with jokes. And I talked

01:42:14.109 --> 01:42:15.729
to him about it once. Like, there was one that

01:42:15.729 --> 01:42:18.109
I watched that I laughed really hard. And I called

01:42:18.109 --> 01:42:19.890
him up. I go, hey, dude. I go, you could be a

01:42:19.890 --> 01:42:23.729
comedian. Like, a real, legit comedian. Like,

01:42:23.729 --> 01:42:27.380
your takes on things are very funny. Like, they're

01:42:27.380 --> 01:42:28.500
funny and they're clever. Murray's like that,

01:42:28.520 --> 01:42:30.539
too. They're sneaky. Douglas, yes. Yeah, he's

01:42:30.539 --> 01:42:32.920
got a great sense of humor, man. Brilliant people

01:42:32.920 --> 01:42:36.140
are oftentimes, they're capable of anything.

01:42:36.340 --> 01:42:39.020
And Sam, 100 % could be a stand -up comedian.

01:42:39.020 --> 01:42:41.380
I was walking through New York Times Square with

01:42:41.380 --> 01:42:43.420
Douglas Murray about a month ago. And we had

01:42:43.420 --> 01:42:45.720
gone to an opera and we were on the way to this

01:42:45.720 --> 01:42:48.619
unbelievably fun Russian bar. And we were walking

01:42:48.619 --> 01:42:50.340
through Times Square. And then in Times Square,

01:42:50.460 --> 01:42:52.640
there's these people dressed up like superheroes,

01:42:52.840 --> 01:42:55.460
eh? And kids that have been hired to do this.

01:42:56.239 --> 01:42:58.460
And Spider -Man ran up to me and he said, are

01:42:58.460 --> 01:43:01.479
you Jordan Peterson? And I said, are you Spider

01:43:01.479 --> 01:43:04.319
-Man? And that was pretty damn funny. And then

01:43:04.319 --> 01:43:06.659
Douglas Murray, we were walking by and Douglas

01:43:06.659 --> 01:43:08.840
Murray said, I wish he would have asked me if

01:43:08.840 --> 01:43:13.840
I was Douglas Murray. It was ridiculously funny.

01:43:14.020 --> 01:43:17.199
He's very, very witty. You and Douglas Murray

01:43:17.199 --> 01:43:20.199
drinking at a Russian bar must have been awesome.

01:43:20.380 --> 01:43:23.159
It was really good. We had a blast in New York.

01:43:23.239 --> 01:43:25.840
I'm sure. It was ridiculously funny. He's got

01:43:25.840 --> 01:43:28.859
this sparkling sense of humor that goes along

01:43:28.859 --> 01:43:31.479
with his insane courage. He's very courageous.

01:43:31.739 --> 01:43:35.359
I've met a lot of people in the last five years,

01:43:35.439 --> 01:43:37.380
and a lot of them have been the subject of unbelievably

01:43:37.380 --> 01:43:41.569
vicious attacks. Out of that, I've seen emerge

01:43:41.569 --> 01:43:44.090
some unbelievably brave people like Brett Weinstein,

01:43:44.149 --> 01:43:46.729
for example, and his wife, Heather. They're unbelievably

01:43:46.729 --> 01:43:49.130
brave. And Ayaan Hirsi Ali, she's like that.

01:43:49.390 --> 01:43:52.689
But Murray is like, Murray, that guy's got a

01:43:52.689 --> 01:43:55.850
spine of steel. He certainly does. And he backs

01:43:55.850 --> 01:43:58.109
it up with consideration and thought. Like he's

01:43:58.109 --> 01:43:59.890
thought these things through. He's not being

01:43:59.890 --> 01:44:02.750
flippant. He's not talking off the cuff. He knows

01:44:02.750 --> 01:44:05.609
what he's saying. And, you know, he shuts people

01:44:05.609 --> 01:44:09.600
down. a pretty beautiful way. So I went to Cambridge

01:44:09.600 --> 01:44:14.260
and Oxford in December after I had been disinvited.

01:44:14.300 --> 01:44:16.479
And that's a whole interesting story in and of

01:44:16.479 --> 01:44:18.600
itself because there's a real free speech movement

01:44:18.600 --> 01:44:21.239
developed at Cambridge and centered on the school

01:44:21.239 --> 01:44:24.279
of divinity. That's so interesting. Yeah. So

01:44:24.279 --> 01:44:27.319
it's really starting to manifest itself in all

01:44:27.319 --> 01:44:30.460
sorts of fascinating ways. But I tested out some

01:44:30.460 --> 01:44:32.319
of the ideas that I talked to you about today,

01:44:32.380 --> 01:44:34.619
about the idea that we look at the world through

01:44:34.619 --> 01:44:36.699
a... We have to look at the world through an

01:44:36.699 --> 01:44:39.199
ethical structure, not an objective structure.

01:44:39.739 --> 01:44:43.199
A literary structure, in fact. And I developed

01:44:43.199 --> 01:44:44.760
a little bit more when I was talking to you today,

01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:46.720
because I hadn't realized at that point that

01:44:46.720 --> 01:44:48.760
this literary structure was composed in part

01:44:48.760 --> 01:44:50.960
of the relationship between foundational texts,

01:44:51.140 --> 01:44:53.380
and that the Bible was by definition at the bottom

01:44:53.380 --> 01:44:57.779
of that. It has to be, technically, because I'll

01:44:57.779 --> 01:44:59.819
go back to that for a minute, because imagine

01:44:59.819 --> 01:45:02.119
that as we moved forward through time, at one

01:45:02.119 --> 01:45:04.380
point, we had no books at all. We had no writing.

01:45:05.220 --> 01:45:08.199
Well, then the question might be, well, what

01:45:08.199 --> 01:45:12.520
did we write down? And the answer is, well, stories.

01:45:13.579 --> 01:45:16.239
Well, what are stories? Well, they're descriptions

01:45:16.239 --> 01:45:19.020
of people moving through time and space doing

01:45:19.020 --> 01:45:21.300
things. Now, that isn't all they are because

01:45:21.300 --> 01:45:23.899
they can be boring. So they're interesting stories

01:45:23.899 --> 01:45:26.439
about, they're interesting descriptions of people

01:45:26.439 --> 01:45:27.579
moving through time and space. Those are the

01:45:27.579 --> 01:45:29.380
ones that stick. You bet. Well, no one will listen

01:45:29.380 --> 01:45:31.239
to them otherwise or write them. They have to

01:45:31.239 --> 01:45:34.420
be interesting. So that means that our sense

01:45:34.420 --> 01:45:37.279
of meaning orients us to certain types of stories.

01:45:37.600 --> 01:45:39.239
Well, those are the ones that get written down

01:45:39.239 --> 01:45:41.539
and remembered. And so we aggregated those stories

01:45:41.539 --> 01:45:44.279
across time. Those are our first basic documents.

01:45:44.399 --> 01:45:46.520
We're like a self -description. What are we doing?

01:45:46.979 --> 01:45:48.739
Well, here's what interesting people are doing.

01:45:48.939 --> 01:45:50.920
Well, how do we know? Well, because we're interested

01:45:50.920 --> 01:45:53.600
in them. And so then you think, well, what's

01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:55.659
manifesting itself? And that's that spirit of

01:45:55.659 --> 01:45:59.199
engagement. And so there's also a religious twist

01:45:59.199 --> 01:46:01.979
in this. And so you and I are engaging in dialogue.

01:46:02.600 --> 01:46:05.319
That's dia logos, right? So it's the manifestation

01:46:05.319 --> 01:46:09.380
of the logos duly. And what is that? Well, it's

01:46:09.380 --> 01:46:12.020
the redemptive. It's redemption in action. That's

01:46:12.020 --> 01:46:14.399
what it is. I mean, technically, that's what

01:46:14.399 --> 01:46:16.680
it is. So imagine this. You've got a bunch of

01:46:16.680 --> 01:46:19.920
worn -out ideas, and they're blinding you. And

01:46:19.920 --> 01:46:21.520
I've got a bunch of worn -out ideas, and they're

01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:24.960
blinding me. And if we stumble forward in our

01:46:24.960 --> 01:46:27.680
blindness, we will fall into a pit. So what do

01:46:27.680 --> 01:46:29.800
we do about that? Well, I talk to you about what

01:46:29.800 --> 01:46:32.520
you think, and I listen, because, man, Maybe

01:46:32.520 --> 01:46:34.479
you know something that I don't, that I need

01:46:34.479 --> 01:46:37.119
to know. Yes. Well, so how is that not a redemptive

01:46:37.119 --> 01:46:40.039
process? Obviously it is. And what's its signal?

01:46:40.060 --> 01:46:42.659
Because it redeems you from your own totalitarian

01:46:42.659 --> 01:46:47.060
idiocy and the hell that leads to. You just told

01:46:47.060 --> 01:46:48.840
me that. You said, what happens if you're isolated

01:46:48.840 --> 01:46:51.880
for five years? I think it's more as expansive

01:46:51.880 --> 01:46:54.529
than redemptive. That's fine. I think of it more

01:46:54.529 --> 01:46:56.689
in terms, I mean, that's my personal experience

01:46:56.689 --> 01:46:59.470
in doing this podcast, which is... It's not just

01:46:59.470 --> 01:47:01.510
expansive, though. I agree with you, it's expansive.

01:47:01.630 --> 01:47:03.970
But it's not just that, because while you're

01:47:03.970 --> 01:47:07.210
expanding, you're also discarding, right? Yes.

01:47:07.210 --> 01:47:09.869
Yeah, so that's part of it that makes it redemptive,

01:47:09.869 --> 01:47:12.529
right? And that's, there's a reason that in Revelation,

01:47:12.789 --> 01:47:14.989
Christ comes back with his sword to judge the

01:47:14.989 --> 01:47:17.590
elect and the damned. There's a reason for that,

01:47:17.670 --> 01:47:20.069
because that's a symbol of the operation of the

01:47:20.069 --> 01:47:23.149
Logos. And the Logos, even in dialogue, says,

01:47:23.329 --> 01:47:26.869
that's an interesting point. We'll keep that.

01:47:27.109 --> 01:47:30.050
Let's focus on that. Well, we can ignore that.

01:47:30.130 --> 01:47:33.189
We can get rid of that. We can junk that. And

01:47:33.189 --> 01:47:35.850
it's this constant, part of it's mercy, because

01:47:35.850 --> 01:47:37.850
let's keep what's good, because we want everyone

01:47:37.850 --> 01:47:40.529
to flourish. But part of it's judgment. That's

01:47:40.529 --> 01:47:45.750
the sword. It's like, no. No. Not this. And you

01:47:45.750 --> 01:47:48.270
get rid of most things, right? You can't keep

01:47:48.270 --> 01:47:51.909
most things. You have to put them aside. Well,

01:47:51.930 --> 01:47:54.909
that's that. There's an old idea that Jung elaborated

01:47:54.909 --> 01:47:58.130
on that God rules with two hands, mercy and justice.

01:47:58.489 --> 01:48:02.149
And the mercy is, well, let's let everyone flourish

01:48:02.149 --> 01:48:04.930
and welcome people and forgive them, all of that.

01:48:05.449 --> 01:48:09.149
But justice is more, yeah, but let's do the right

01:48:09.149 --> 01:48:11.710
thing and leave what's wrong behind. And that

01:48:11.710 --> 01:48:15.439
requires judgment, judiciousness, I talked to

01:48:15.439 --> 01:48:17.880
Jimmy Carr about how he prepared for his comedy

01:48:17.880 --> 01:48:20.420
tour. And maybe you do exactly the same thing.

01:48:20.619 --> 01:48:24.579
And he said, stand -up comedy is the most dialogical

01:48:24.579 --> 01:48:27.319
of artistic enterprises. And I thought, well,

01:48:27.340 --> 01:48:28.699
what do you mean? Because you're just talking

01:48:28.699 --> 01:48:32.020
like I do on lectures. I'm listening to the audience

01:48:32.020 --> 01:48:35.220
all the time. Just making contact with them,

01:48:35.239 --> 01:48:37.079
watching how they're reacting. I'm listening.

01:48:37.579 --> 01:48:40.979
Carr said, well, I do 100 shows before I go out

01:48:40.979 --> 01:48:43.020
on tour and I try out new material. So he generates

01:48:43.020 --> 01:48:45.609
new material, a lot of it. That's the creativity

01:48:45.609 --> 01:48:48.470
part. Then he goes and tries it out in audiences.

01:48:49.210 --> 01:48:51.930
And they either laugh or they don't. And because

01:48:51.930 --> 01:48:55.510
he's brave and listens, he notices when he's

01:48:55.510 --> 01:48:59.130
not funny, and he stops being not funny. And

01:48:59.130 --> 01:49:00.970
so the audience just tells him what's funny,

01:49:01.029 --> 01:49:03.029
and then he collects that across a hundred instances.

01:49:03.529 --> 01:49:06.369
And then that's funny and verified by the audience,

01:49:06.529 --> 01:49:09.289
and he goes out and tells those jokes. And so

01:49:09.289 --> 01:49:11.930
that's dialogical and redemptive as well. It's

01:49:11.930 --> 01:49:15.590
like... What jokes need to be told? Well, our

01:49:15.590 --> 01:49:18.529
culture has some sacred cows. Those are idols.

01:49:19.010 --> 01:49:21.890
The idols that the Israelites worshipped in the

01:49:21.890 --> 01:49:25.050
desert. The golden calf. Sacred cows. They need

01:49:25.050 --> 01:49:27.850
to be punctured. Why? Because they're impeding

01:49:27.850 --> 01:49:29.789
our progress. Well, how do we puncture them?

01:49:30.170 --> 01:49:33.149
Well, one way is we show that we can transcend

01:49:33.149 --> 01:49:35.510
them. And the Canadians are doing that all the

01:49:35.510 --> 01:49:38.069
time. Here's something we can't laugh about.

01:49:38.729 --> 01:49:41.529
Let's laugh about it. Everybody breaks down.

01:49:41.630 --> 01:49:44.510
Everybody cracks up. You know, it's so cool when

01:49:44.510 --> 01:49:47.529
people laugh, they can't fight. I used to go

01:49:47.529 --> 01:49:49.689
work out with Jim Keller, this chip designer,

01:49:49.909 --> 01:49:52.310
and we did this for years. And one of our jokes

01:49:52.310 --> 01:49:54.470
was, you know, we'd be striving to bench press

01:49:54.470 --> 01:49:57.710
whatever we were managing at the time, 175 pounds,

01:49:57.869 --> 01:50:00.430
like it's really straining. And then we'd crack

01:50:00.430 --> 01:50:03.010
a joke. And that was always funny. We spotted

01:50:03.010 --> 01:50:04.649
him, of course, because as soon as you laugh,

01:50:04.869 --> 01:50:08.210
all your muscular tension disappears. Right.

01:50:08.750 --> 01:50:10.810
So that's so cool, Ace. When you laugh, you can't

01:50:10.810 --> 01:50:13.470
fight. You can't fight when you're laughing.

01:50:14.130 --> 01:50:16.970
So how much laughing should we be doing? It depends

01:50:16.970 --> 01:50:19.649
on how much fighting we want to do. And maybe

01:50:19.649 --> 01:50:21.489
if we didn't want to do any fighting, we'd be

01:50:21.489 --> 01:50:23.970
laughing all the time. And that's how you said

01:50:23.970 --> 01:50:27.409
that cements your group of comrades together.

01:50:28.289 --> 01:50:29.890
Well, you're not fighting. What are you doing

01:50:29.890 --> 01:50:32.590
instead? Playing. Yeah. Well, that's what we

01:50:32.590 --> 01:50:35.489
need to do, man, is we need to play. All of us.

01:50:36.529 --> 01:50:40.220
Yeah, well, I agree with that. For sure. There's

01:50:40.220 --> 01:50:42.439
a thing going on with stand -up where you're

01:50:42.439 --> 01:50:45.939
working with the crowd, too. It's really interesting.

01:50:46.439 --> 01:50:49.739
Tell me about it. I'll have a bit, and I'll have

01:50:49.739 --> 01:50:52.699
the bit fully structured. I'll write it out,

01:50:52.800 --> 01:50:57.000
and then I try to go on stage. On stage, I'm

01:50:57.000 --> 01:51:00.439
informed by the feeling that I have interacting

01:51:00.439 --> 01:51:02.560
with the crowd to take it to a different place.

01:51:04.090 --> 01:51:06.289
to take the subject to a different place, to

01:51:06.289 --> 01:51:09.930
abandon parts of it that just don't feel organic

01:51:09.930 --> 01:51:13.789
to me. And you learn through the crowd that you

01:51:13.789 --> 01:51:17.729
can't just write. Sometimes you can. Sometimes

01:51:17.729 --> 01:51:20.409
jokes come out in full force. There's some jokes

01:51:20.409 --> 01:51:22.909
that I wrote that I literally wrote them down

01:51:22.909 --> 01:51:25.329
and then I did them on stage the exact way that

01:51:25.329 --> 01:51:27.090
I wrote them down. And they always stayed that

01:51:27.090 --> 01:51:30.350
way. I don't know why. But some of them, they

01:51:30.350 --> 01:51:33.439
don't come that way. They come like as... They

01:51:33.439 --> 01:51:36.720
come like as a thing that you have to piece together.

01:51:37.220 --> 01:51:40.079
Like you have part, like here you have some material.

01:51:40.079 --> 01:51:42.399
You have some raw material. And I guarantee you

01:51:42.399 --> 01:51:44.180
this could be a house. But you're going to have

01:51:44.180 --> 01:51:46.159
to figure out what the layout is. That's what

01:51:46.159 --> 01:51:48.180
happens when I'm lecturing. Because I never give

01:51:48.180 --> 01:51:50.939
the same lecture twice. And I don't use notes.

01:51:51.260 --> 01:51:55.020
But I do the same thing. I have a whole, I think

01:51:55.020 --> 01:51:57.640
about it like jazz improvisation. I have a whole

01:51:57.640 --> 01:52:00.810
bunch of stories that I know. And I have a whole

01:52:00.810 --> 01:52:03.590
bunch of questions that I've investigated. And

01:52:03.590 --> 01:52:06.170
what I try to do in a lecture, and that's what

01:52:06.170 --> 01:52:08.010
I do on the tour, is I have a question that I

01:52:08.010 --> 01:52:10.869
haven't investigated to my satisfaction. Then

01:52:10.869 --> 01:52:13.890
I sit backstage and I think, okay, what question

01:52:13.890 --> 01:52:16.890
am I investigating? It has to be one I actually

01:52:16.890 --> 01:52:18.569
want to investigate. It can't be a lie. This

01:52:18.569 --> 01:52:20.369
is a good hint for people who want to write essays.

01:52:21.050 --> 01:52:23.409
Don't write an essay about a question that you

01:52:23.409 --> 01:52:25.609
don't want an answer to, because that's a lie.

01:52:26.250 --> 01:52:28.430
And it'll be dull, and you'll hate it, and you'll

01:52:28.430 --> 01:52:29.989
hate writing, and you'll get a bad grade, and

01:52:29.989 --> 01:52:32.010
you'll get cynical, and you'll drop out. It's

01:52:32.010 --> 01:52:34.710
not good. So you've got to be a real question.

01:52:35.590 --> 01:52:37.890
So, okay, this is a question. I think it's worthy

01:52:37.890 --> 01:52:39.850
of pursuit. I'd like to get farther with it.

01:52:40.310 --> 01:52:43.500
Okay, here's... A theory I know about that we

01:52:43.500 --> 01:52:45.779
could explore it with. Here's another one. Here's

01:52:45.779 --> 01:52:48.039
some examples of that that make good stories.

01:52:48.479 --> 01:52:50.239
Here's another place I could go to investigate

01:52:50.239 --> 01:52:53.399
that. So I have that in my mind. And then I go

01:52:53.399 --> 01:52:56.000
out and I'm watching. I always watch single people

01:52:56.000 --> 01:52:58.880
in the audience. One at a time. The lights kind

01:52:58.880 --> 01:53:00.720
of interfere with that. Because I like to be

01:53:00.720 --> 01:53:02.600
able to see the people at the back. But I can't.

01:53:02.600 --> 01:53:06.460
So I watch the front people. And I see, is this

01:53:06.460 --> 01:53:10.079
landing? Like, are the lights going on? Because

01:53:10.079 --> 01:53:14.340
you can tell. I think the thing that's most similar

01:53:14.340 --> 01:53:16.359
to what I'm doing in my book tour is stand -up

01:53:16.359 --> 01:53:20.079
comedy. So you can tell if it's landing, people

01:53:20.079 --> 01:53:23.000
are nodding, and they're not fidgeting, and the

01:53:23.000 --> 01:53:26.380
crowd isn't rustling. They're all focused, and

01:53:26.380 --> 01:53:28.479
some of them are looking like this. And then

01:53:28.479 --> 01:53:30.699
you see someone who's kind of nodding off, and

01:53:30.699 --> 01:53:32.359
if there's a lot of them, that's a problem. But

01:53:32.359 --> 01:53:34.260
if it's one guy, you don't look at him. Look

01:53:34.260 --> 01:53:36.520
at someone else. Maybe he had a bad day. You

01:53:36.520 --> 01:53:38.960
don't take that personally. And then the crowd,

01:53:39.079 --> 01:53:43.409
you said, informs you. And inform is really an

01:53:43.409 --> 01:53:47.810
interesting term. Information. So now you're

01:53:47.810 --> 01:53:49.390
looking at the crowd and you're looking at their

01:53:49.390 --> 01:53:51.229
eyes in particular and their face. And their

01:53:51.229 --> 01:53:53.090
eyes tell you what they're focused on, so what

01:53:53.090 --> 01:53:55.390
they think is important. And their face tells

01:53:55.390 --> 01:53:57.609
you how they're reacting. And then you glance

01:53:57.609 --> 01:53:59.510
around the crowd and then you get a sense of

01:53:59.510 --> 01:54:01.529
the whole crowd and you map that onto your body.

01:54:01.649 --> 01:54:03.970
And that gives rise to a set of intuitions that

01:54:03.970 --> 01:54:05.609
allows you to communicate because otherwise you

01:54:05.609 --> 01:54:08.010
couldn't communicate. And that's listening, although

01:54:08.010 --> 01:54:09.569
you're doing it with your eyes, but you're still

01:54:09.569 --> 01:54:12.779
listening. And that does inform this dance, and

01:54:12.779 --> 01:54:14.819
that's partly also why people love stand -up

01:54:14.819 --> 01:54:17.039
comedy. That's partly why they like my lectures,

01:54:17.199 --> 01:54:19.260
is because they don't know what's going to happen,

01:54:19.380 --> 01:54:22.300
and neither do I, and it could fail at any moment.

01:54:23.819 --> 01:54:26.939
Have you had lectures that failed spectacularly?

01:54:27.000 --> 01:54:30.319
No, but I've certainly had ones, oh, I certainly

01:54:30.319 --> 01:54:32.880
have felt that it might, because I'll go out

01:54:32.880 --> 01:54:36.060
on, my thought tends to be quite tangential,

01:54:36.100 --> 01:54:37.819
because I try to link lots of things together,

01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:40.569
so then I'll go way out on a limb, It's like

01:54:40.569 --> 01:54:43.729
I'm addressing this question. Idea, idea, idea,

01:54:43.869 --> 01:54:47.869
idea, idea, idea. Uh -oh. I'm away from the tree

01:54:47.869 --> 01:54:49.869
and I don't know how to get back. Right. And

01:54:49.869 --> 01:54:53.210
then sometimes that'll happen mid -lecture and

01:54:53.210 --> 01:54:55.649
I think, then I get self -conscious. Then I forget

01:54:55.649 --> 01:54:58.609
everything I'm talking about. And then that can

01:54:58.609 --> 01:55:03.789
be real awkward. Yeah. But luckily, generally,

01:55:03.850 --> 01:55:08.529
so far, knock wood, if I pause, I can recreate

01:55:08.529 --> 01:55:11.130
the argument. And then I can figure out where

01:55:11.130 --> 01:55:13.430
I was headed. And then I can think, oh, yes,

01:55:13.550 --> 01:55:15.689
that's why I made that point. And then I can

01:55:15.689 --> 01:55:17.470
go back. And people like that. You know, one

01:55:17.470 --> 01:55:20.270
of the things comedians often do is they'll tell

01:55:20.270 --> 01:55:23.329
a joke early in the set. And then quite a bit

01:55:23.329 --> 01:55:25.689
later in the set, they'll reintroduce the joke.

01:55:25.829 --> 01:55:28.289
It's a callback. Callback. Callback. Yeah, I

01:55:28.289 --> 01:55:30.529
do callbacks all the time in my lectures. And

01:55:30.529 --> 01:55:32.989
people love that. Yeah, yeah. Well, people love

01:55:32.989 --> 01:55:36.060
that because it shows them. That they followed

01:55:36.060 --> 01:55:38.859
along. Yeah. And that we're in the same place.

01:55:38.979 --> 01:55:40.560
Right. And they love that. They love that. And

01:55:40.560 --> 01:55:42.720
it's just as satisfying as a punchline. Yes.

01:55:42.720 --> 01:55:44.600
And it is a punchline in some sense. It's like,

01:55:44.640 --> 01:55:50.319
all this is related to this. Yes. Click. Yeah.

01:55:50.439 --> 01:55:52.579
Fun. You can see lights going all the time in

01:55:52.579 --> 01:55:55.000
the crowd. It's such fun. Yeah. People love that.

01:55:55.239 --> 01:55:57.640
Yeah. Well, and no wonder it puts them in the

01:55:57.640 --> 01:56:00.239
zone. So here's a cool thing. Vygotsky, Russian

01:56:00.239 --> 01:56:02.600
psychologist, studied the acquisition of language

01:56:02.600 --> 01:56:05.500
in children. So he thought, how do children learn

01:56:05.500 --> 01:56:07.880
to speak? Because no one teaches them. They just

01:56:07.880 --> 01:56:11.640
learn. It's a weird thing. Even very intellectually

01:56:11.640 --> 01:56:14.279
impaired human beings learn to talk. It's really

01:56:14.279 --> 01:56:17.060
deeply embedded in us. So he looked at how parents

01:56:17.060 --> 01:56:19.159
talk to their children while they were developing

01:56:19.159 --> 01:56:22.960
language. And he found that parents talk to children

01:56:22.960 --> 01:56:25.500
at a level that slightly exceeds their current

01:56:25.500 --> 01:56:28.020
level of comprehension. And they do that without

01:56:28.020 --> 01:56:30.220
knowing they're doing it. And so then you think,

01:56:30.260 --> 01:56:32.340
well, what are you doing? Think what you're doing.

01:56:33.250 --> 01:56:35.250
You've got the child and he knows some things.

01:56:36.170 --> 01:56:38.930
But he doesn't know enough. But you don't want

01:56:38.930 --> 01:56:40.529
to punish him and exclude him because he doesn't

01:56:40.529 --> 01:56:42.609
know enough. But you don't want to leave him

01:56:42.609 --> 01:56:45.670
undeveloped. So you speak to him so he almost

01:56:45.670 --> 01:56:48.829
catches on. And that way he gets something, but

01:56:48.829 --> 01:56:51.029
there's a horizon, right? And the horizon keeps

01:56:51.029 --> 01:56:54.350
moving. And so the child's right at that edge.

01:56:55.449 --> 01:56:59.329
Vygotsky called that the zone of proximal development.

01:57:00.510 --> 01:57:05.890
That's the zone. That's the term. So when you're

01:57:05.890 --> 01:57:08.550
in the zone, which you love to be in, and you

01:57:08.550 --> 01:57:10.069
know when you're in it, and so does the audience,

01:57:10.149 --> 01:57:12.270
so does everybody, they're in the zone, man.

01:57:12.989 --> 01:57:15.270
Athletes are in the zone. Everyone's like, oh

01:57:15.270 --> 01:57:16.909
my God, they're in the zone. Isn't that cool?

01:57:17.090 --> 01:57:20.229
It's like, yeah. It's the precondition for cool.

01:57:21.289 --> 01:57:24.220
It's like everything. I think what's going on

01:57:24.220 --> 01:57:26.819
with comedy, at least I can speak to that. I've

01:57:26.819 --> 01:57:29.180
never really done any lectures. But with comedy,

01:57:29.319 --> 01:57:32.359
what's happening is it's kind of a mass hypnosis.

01:57:32.420 --> 01:57:35.180
And the audience is trusting you with their thoughts.

01:57:35.420 --> 01:57:38.720
If your thoughts are clean enough, meaning if

01:57:38.720 --> 01:57:41.760
they're precise enough that someone can follow

01:57:41.760 --> 01:57:45.199
you with wonder. Like not knowing where you're

01:57:45.199 --> 01:57:47.079
going with it. It can't be too obvious. One of

01:57:47.079 --> 01:57:49.539
the worst things a comic can do is have too many

01:57:49.539 --> 01:57:52.619
words to set up a premise and to set up a punchline

01:57:52.619 --> 01:57:55.220
because then it allows the person to formulate

01:57:55.220 --> 01:57:58.020
their own punchline. And oftentimes they come

01:57:58.020 --> 01:58:00.920
with the same punchline. A little sooner. Right.

01:58:00.960 --> 01:58:04.279
Because if a person is going to write, if that

01:58:04.279 --> 01:58:06.319
person is going to use too many words to describe

01:58:06.319 --> 01:58:10.510
something, oftentimes they're unskilled. So their

01:58:10.510 --> 01:58:13.529
punchline will also be obvious. And it's a real

01:58:13.529 --> 01:58:16.670
problem. But that same punchline, even though

01:58:16.670 --> 01:58:18.930
it's obvious, would be effective if you hit it

01:58:18.930 --> 01:58:22.050
with an economy of words. So that wonder is really

01:58:22.050 --> 01:58:26.710
an interesting thing. So most of the things around

01:58:26.710 --> 01:58:29.859
us we don't attend to. And that's because there's

01:58:29.859 --> 01:58:31.479
an infinite number of things around us. Well,

01:58:31.539 --> 01:58:33.579
except maybe if we're on psychedelics, in which

01:58:33.579 --> 01:58:35.220
case we attend to everything. Everything all

01:58:35.220 --> 01:58:37.220
at once. Yeah, and that's too much. And everyone

01:58:37.220 --> 01:58:39.119
says, oh, that was too much. It's like, yeah,

01:58:39.239 --> 01:58:42.079
that is literally the definition of too much.

01:58:42.100 --> 01:58:43.680
And we know why. I never feel like it's too much.

01:58:44.079 --> 01:58:47.659
Well, that's good. Never? No. No, I feel like

01:58:47.659 --> 01:58:49.840
I can't handle it at the moment. Okay, okay,

01:58:49.859 --> 01:58:51.100
that's fine. I'll settle for that. Not even that

01:58:51.100 --> 01:58:54.359
I can't handle it. I can't categorize everything.

01:58:54.970 --> 01:58:59.090
Right. Like it's overwhelming in its possibilities.

01:58:59.529 --> 01:59:02.329
Yeah. But one of the things that I love the most

01:59:02.329 --> 01:59:06.529
about psychedelics is that it informs me of that

01:59:06.529 --> 01:59:11.590
just by existing. It informs me that all of my

01:59:11.590 --> 01:59:15.729
notions of reality itself are bullshit. They're

01:59:15.729 --> 01:59:19.029
all bullshit. And I live in this sort of confined.

01:59:20.239 --> 01:59:25.460
this this restrained narrow carved pathway world

01:59:25.460 --> 01:59:28.039
because that's where i live all the time but

01:59:28.039 --> 01:59:30.640
then sufficient yeah and then but then you have

01:59:30.640 --> 01:59:33.939
a psychedelic experience and it just boom so

01:59:33.939 --> 01:59:37.260
that's gone that wonder that you described that's

01:59:37.260 --> 01:59:40.319
like a fractional psychedelic experience so you

01:59:40.319 --> 01:59:42.840
say well they entrust you with their wonder it's

01:59:42.840 --> 01:59:45.239
like yes they do so so when we're sitting in

01:59:45.239 --> 01:59:48.270
this room most of the things that are going on

01:59:48.270 --> 01:59:50.989
around us, we're not attending to. So basically,

01:59:51.109 --> 01:59:55.890
we perceive them as equivalent to zero. So that's

01:59:55.890 --> 01:59:57.630
kind of interesting because everything around

01:59:57.630 --> 02:00:01.069
us is infinitely remarkable. And yet, we perceive

02:00:01.069 --> 02:00:04.289
everything as if it's zero. Now, the reason we

02:00:04.289 --> 02:00:06.649
do that is so that we can use our limited attention

02:00:06.649 --> 02:00:09.989
on a few things. Yes. So it's necessary, but

02:00:09.989 --> 02:00:13.560
it's also blinding. When you start to wonder

02:00:13.560 --> 02:00:16.060
about something, what you're actually doing when

02:00:16.060 --> 02:00:18.479
you wonder about it is freeing your perception

02:00:18.479 --> 02:00:21.460
from the constraints of memory. And that's a

02:00:21.460 --> 02:00:24.439
place of dancing. It's a place where memory itself

02:00:24.439 --> 02:00:28.720
is updated. And if you trust someone and you

02:00:28.720 --> 02:00:31.880
express that sense of wonder in the confines

02:00:31.880 --> 02:00:35.479
of that trust, then you are in fact participating

02:00:35.479 --> 02:00:39.619
in the process that reveals the underlying complexity

02:00:39.619 --> 02:00:42.479
of the world to you. And then does literally

02:00:42.479 --> 02:00:45.640
inform you. And you feel that. I've been very

02:00:45.640 --> 02:00:47.800
interested technically in the instinct of meaning.

02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:50.420
Because what is meaning? And is it illusory?

02:00:51.220 --> 02:00:53.500
Because that's the fundamental question in some

02:00:53.500 --> 02:00:57.659
sense. It isn't even, is suffering real? It's,

02:00:57.680 --> 02:01:00.420
is the meaning that keeps suffering at bay, is

02:01:00.420 --> 02:01:02.380
that real? That's a more fundamental question.

02:01:02.760 --> 02:01:05.159
And the answer to that is, it's not only real,

02:01:05.260 --> 02:01:09.279
it is the most real thing. And you have an instinct

02:01:09.279 --> 02:01:11.840
that signals its presence to you. And part of

02:01:11.840 --> 02:01:14.420
that manifests itself as wonder. It's the openness

02:01:14.420 --> 02:01:17.920
to transformation. Because it isn't even the

02:01:17.920 --> 02:01:20.939
new ideas that are redeeming. It's the process

02:01:20.939 --> 02:01:24.159
of continually opening yourself up to the transformation

02:01:24.159 --> 02:01:27.479
of new ideas. And that's signaled by wonder.

02:01:28.000 --> 02:01:31.000
When you're talking about ignoring all the things

02:01:31.000 --> 02:01:33.920
around you, it made me think about sensory deprivation

02:01:33.920 --> 02:01:35.859
tanks. I don't know if we've ever discussed this

02:01:35.859 --> 02:01:37.600
before. No, I don't think so. Have you ever done

02:01:37.600 --> 02:01:41.319
that? Yes. What did you think? Well, I thought

02:01:41.319 --> 02:01:43.500
a bunch of the things that we just talked about.

02:01:43.859 --> 02:01:47.579
You know, what happens is that in a sensory deprivation

02:01:47.579 --> 02:01:53.359
tank, you become increasingly sensitive to less

02:01:53.359 --> 02:01:55.460
and less because there's almost nothing going

02:01:55.460 --> 02:02:00.079
on. the threshold for perception, you get more

02:02:00.079 --> 02:02:02.079
and more and more sensitive as you're trying

02:02:02.079 --> 02:02:04.720
to pick up signal where there's no signal. And

02:02:04.720 --> 02:02:07.600
that can open these gates of imagination, for

02:02:07.600 --> 02:02:10.279
example. You know, you know this already, because

02:02:10.279 --> 02:02:12.520
to some degree, imagine you want to go figure

02:02:12.520 --> 02:02:16.680
something out. You usually go somewhere where

02:02:16.680 --> 02:02:19.220
you can be by yourself. You're not flooded by...

02:02:19.779 --> 02:02:22.520
sensory information. Maybe you go for a walk,

02:02:22.539 --> 02:02:24.220
maybe you go sit on your bed. You kind of shield

02:02:24.220 --> 02:02:28.119
yourself from outside input. And then by concentrating,

02:02:28.199 --> 02:02:30.800
you open yourself up to this internal revelation

02:02:30.800 --> 02:02:33.100
that's otherwise blotted out by the external

02:02:33.100 --> 02:02:35.979
world. And that really happens to a huge degree

02:02:35.979 --> 02:02:38.979
in the sensory deprivation tank, or can. And

02:02:38.979 --> 02:02:41.779
I think that is akin in many ways to, and people

02:02:41.779 --> 02:02:44.220
have made this case many times, is that it's

02:02:44.220 --> 02:02:46.720
analogous to a psychedelic experience. And I

02:02:46.720 --> 02:02:49.350
think that's technically true. It certainly is

02:02:49.350 --> 02:02:52.310
because if that experience was achievable through

02:02:52.310 --> 02:02:54.109
a psychedelic, I think it'd be a very popular

02:02:54.109 --> 02:02:57.529
psychedelic. If the experience of having no sensory

02:02:57.529 --> 02:02:59.890
input and being able to be alone with your thoughts,

02:02:59.890 --> 02:03:02.529
like completely without the influence of even

02:03:02.529 --> 02:03:06.029
gravity on your body and a seat or the floor

02:03:06.029 --> 02:03:08.010
on your feet, you don't feel any of it. Yeah,

02:03:08.069 --> 02:03:11.149
you start to get... Because you've eliminated

02:03:11.149 --> 02:03:13.569
all that external stimulation, you allow yourself

02:03:13.569 --> 02:03:15.930
to become aware of things happening that would

02:03:15.930 --> 02:03:17.810
otherwise be in the background. Jung believed,

02:03:18.010 --> 02:03:20.829
for example, as Carl Jung, that we're always

02:03:20.829 --> 02:03:24.750
dreaming. Always. We just don't perceive it because

02:03:24.750 --> 02:03:27.069
the outer world blots it out. And there's definitely

02:03:27.069 --> 02:03:30.710
truth in that. So daydreaming, fantasy... Well,

02:03:30.710 --> 02:03:35.029
even... It's even deeper than that because, look,

02:03:35.109 --> 02:03:37.130
there's a thread of meaning that guides this

02:03:37.130 --> 02:03:41.319
conversation. and neither of us know what it

02:03:41.319 --> 02:03:44.720
is. We know when it manifests itself, because

02:03:44.720 --> 02:03:46.859
we get interested, right? Oh, that's interesting,

02:03:46.960 --> 02:03:49.659
and then, you know, I say something, you think

02:03:49.659 --> 02:03:51.220
it's interesting, and you nail it with a bunch

02:03:51.220 --> 02:03:53.020
of words, and then I pick up some of the words,

02:03:53.079 --> 02:03:54.600
and I think that's interesting, and I nail it

02:03:54.600 --> 02:03:56.739
with a bunch of words, but there's this thread,

02:03:56.960 --> 02:03:59.279
it's the golden thread, that leads you out of

02:03:59.279 --> 02:04:02.359
Ariadne's maze, by the way, and that's part of

02:04:02.359 --> 02:04:05.500
the redemptive process, is by following that,

02:04:06.139 --> 02:04:09.060
manifestation of spontaneous interest, truthfully,

02:04:09.140 --> 02:04:11.880
we participate in this process that revitalizes

02:04:11.880 --> 02:04:14.279
our perceptions. And that's technically true.

02:04:14.460 --> 02:04:17.159
That's what's happening. And then what's even

02:04:17.159 --> 02:04:20.800
more cool than that is that there's nothing we

02:04:20.800 --> 02:04:23.239
can experience that we would rather do than that

02:04:23.239 --> 02:04:25.659
if it's happening intensely. And that's because

02:04:25.659 --> 02:04:27.960
that is the best thing we can do. That's the

02:04:27.960 --> 02:04:36.479
logos. That's the logos. By definition. When

02:04:36.479 --> 02:04:38.319
you have done sensory deprivation experiences,

02:04:38.539 --> 02:04:41.399
how many have you ever done? About six. Six of

02:04:41.399 --> 02:04:45.539
them? Yeah. Recent? No, it's been 10 years probably.

02:04:45.640 --> 02:04:50.439
Do you think you would benefit from that? It

02:04:50.439 --> 02:04:53.840
would depend on how I did it. Conceivably. Why

02:04:53.840 --> 02:04:56.220
haven't you tried to incorporate that into your

02:04:56.220 --> 02:05:00.319
life? I have other things I do that are probably...

02:05:01.410 --> 02:05:03.569
partial substitutes for it or reasonable substitute.

02:05:03.649 --> 02:05:05.649
I do Kundalini yoga in the morning. Oh, do you?

02:05:05.770 --> 02:05:08.170
With my wife. I have for 20 years, not every

02:05:08.170 --> 02:05:12.310
day, but I'd say a third of the time and often

02:05:12.310 --> 02:05:16.550
for months on end. And so, and I've learned what

02:05:16.550 --> 02:05:18.390
that means. So, you know, when you do those yoga

02:05:18.390 --> 02:05:23.569
poses, that's not yoga. That's training for yoga.

02:05:23.770 --> 02:05:25.710
It's like, imagine that you go to a dance studio

02:05:25.710 --> 02:05:27.970
and they teach you moves. That's not dancing.

02:05:28.670 --> 02:05:31.380
Dancing. is what you do on the stage after you've

02:05:31.380 --> 02:05:34.760
written your jokes. And yoga is what you do with

02:05:34.760 --> 02:05:37.579
your body after you've mastered the poses. Because

02:05:37.579 --> 02:05:40.220
it's all spontaneous. And so when my wife and

02:05:40.220 --> 02:05:42.199
I do kundalini yoga in the morning, it's a series

02:05:42.199 --> 02:05:46.659
of flexion exercises and breathing. But mostly

02:05:46.659 --> 02:05:49.920
what it is, so maybe one is rotation of the head.

02:05:51.079 --> 02:05:54.800
Like that. But you're paying attention. It's

02:05:54.800 --> 02:05:58.659
like, okay, oh, my back hurts there. Okay. I'll

02:05:58.659 --> 02:06:01.220
move my head back and forth a little bit. Relax.

02:06:01.520 --> 02:06:05.199
Move my head. Relax. Okay, it doesn't hurt anymore.

02:06:05.439 --> 02:06:09.779
Oh, that hurts. Oh, got to explore there. Let

02:06:09.779 --> 02:06:13.380
that go. Let that go. And you go through your

02:06:13.380 --> 02:06:15.399
whole body. It's like, oh, I'm cramped there.

02:06:15.560 --> 02:06:17.779
Oh, that hurts. And what's so cool, it's like

02:06:17.779 --> 02:06:20.380
massage. You know, if you're hurting and someone

02:06:20.380 --> 02:06:23.520
massages that, the pain goes away. What the hell

02:06:23.520 --> 02:06:28.439
is going on there? Facilitation of... of circulation,

02:06:28.760 --> 02:06:31.539
removal of toxins from that locale, but also

02:06:31.539 --> 02:06:34.960
the drawing of your reparative attention to that

02:06:34.960 --> 02:06:37.840
spot. Well, yoga's like that. It's like, oh,

02:06:37.920 --> 02:06:40.880
I'm out of alignment there. Oh, I'm out of alignment

02:06:40.880 --> 02:06:43.260
there. So what you're doing, and this is akin

02:06:43.260 --> 02:06:45.760
to stacking the chakras, which is the same as

02:06:45.760 --> 02:06:49.460
a musical experience, is imagine that to get

02:06:49.460 --> 02:06:52.960
that process of optimal self -revelation right,

02:06:53.100 --> 02:07:00.960
you have to be aligned. atoms aligned with the

02:07:00.960 --> 02:07:03.899
molecules above them, the molecules aligned in

02:07:03.899 --> 02:07:06.159
the cells, the cells aligned in the musculature,

02:07:06.260 --> 02:07:09.359
the muscles aligned in the body, the body aligned

02:07:09.359 --> 02:07:13.159
with the environment, broadly speaking, all stacked

02:07:13.159 --> 02:07:15.819
up. That's the cosmic tree, by the way. That's

02:07:15.819 --> 02:07:17.939
the tree the shaman climb up and down in the

02:07:17.939 --> 02:07:20.560
psychedelic experience, that cosmic tree that

02:07:20.560 --> 02:07:22.880
unites levels of being. We can climb that with

02:07:22.880 --> 02:07:25.490
our consciousness. We do it all the time. If

02:07:25.490 --> 02:07:27.329
you're writing a book, you concentrate on the

02:07:27.329 --> 02:07:30.449
word or the paragraph or the whole chapter. And

02:07:30.449 --> 02:07:32.590
when we're conversing, I could concentrate on

02:07:32.590 --> 02:07:34.489
each word or the phrase or the sentence or the

02:07:34.489 --> 02:07:36.850
context, or I could look around the room, up

02:07:36.850 --> 02:07:39.390
and down these levels of analysis. In yoga, you're

02:07:39.390 --> 02:07:42.710
trying to get your body psychophysiologically

02:07:42.710 --> 02:07:45.949
aligned so communication between all those levels

02:07:45.949 --> 02:07:49.149
isn't interfered with unnecessarily. And then

02:07:49.149 --> 02:07:52.189
that opens you up in some sense to the possibility

02:07:52.189 --> 02:07:55.829
of... speech emanating from the depths. That

02:07:55.829 --> 02:07:58.069
would be one way of thinking about it. One of

02:07:58.069 --> 02:08:00.109
the things that people who do Kundalini talk

02:08:00.109 --> 02:08:03.550
about is that they are able to achieve psychedelic

02:08:03.550 --> 02:08:06.350
states and psychedelic states that ordinarily

02:08:06.350 --> 02:08:09.529
are achieved through drugs. I have many friends

02:08:09.529 --> 02:08:12.090
who have done Kundalini and for whatever reason

02:08:12.090 --> 02:08:15.649
I never have, but they have said that through

02:08:15.649 --> 02:08:19.069
it, with long -term commitment to practice, they

02:08:19.069 --> 02:08:21.979
can achieve these bizarre states. where they

02:08:21.979 --> 02:08:24.260
have hallucinations. Have you ever had that?

02:08:25.319 --> 02:08:30.220
No, but what I would say is that this process

02:08:30.220 --> 02:08:36.100
of alignment makes everything into the equivalent

02:08:36.100 --> 02:08:38.220
of a psychedelic experience, like everything.

02:08:39.079 --> 02:08:45.640
Because part of the manifestation of the truth

02:08:45.640 --> 02:08:48.159
is a consequence of the alignment of these levels.

02:08:48.560 --> 02:08:50.869
It's like... That's what we mean when we talk

02:08:50.869 --> 02:08:53.550
about someone having integrity or being authentic.

02:08:53.890 --> 02:08:55.789
It's like they're the same all the way down.

02:08:55.909 --> 02:08:58.989
And not only that, they're where they are completely.

02:08:59.430 --> 02:09:02.470
So not only are they aligned internally, they're

02:09:02.470 --> 02:09:04.289
aligned with everything that's happening around

02:09:04.289 --> 02:09:08.310
them. And you know this perfectly well. But you're

02:09:08.310 --> 02:09:09.609
a master at it because otherwise you wouldn't

02:09:09.609 --> 02:09:13.229
be where you are. The fact that you can focus

02:09:13.229 --> 02:09:16.630
your attention almost completely on the current

02:09:16.630 --> 02:09:19.649
conversation. means that the conversation becomes

02:09:19.649 --> 02:09:23.029
deep. And that's obviously manifesting itself

02:09:23.029 --> 02:09:25.649
in a psychedelic way in your existence. It's

02:09:25.649 --> 02:09:29.770
like, what the hell, Joe? Who the hell are you?

02:09:30.390 --> 02:09:32.850
You started this podcast just talking to people,

02:09:32.930 --> 02:09:34.989
zero production value, you don't edit it, you

02:09:34.989 --> 02:09:37.449
talk to people for three hours. What kind of

02:09:37.449 --> 02:09:40.010
stupid business model is that? That's insane.

02:09:41.149 --> 02:09:48.539
Yeah, and look what's happened. Yeah. Yeah, it's

02:09:48.539 --> 02:09:51.319
pretty insane. No, it's completely insane. It's

02:09:51.319 --> 02:09:53.939
completely, utterly... It's insane for me, and

02:09:53.939 --> 02:09:57.140
not me. Like, people think I planned this. That's

02:09:57.140 --> 02:09:59.399
what's hilarious. Yeah, well, what's so cool

02:09:59.399 --> 02:10:01.819
about that, I think, is that, well, the best

02:10:01.819 --> 02:10:03.819
laid plans of mice and men, we all know that.

02:10:04.279 --> 02:10:07.180
But, so, there's a doctrine in the Sermon on

02:10:07.180 --> 02:10:09.659
the Mount. It's often viewed as a hippie sort

02:10:09.659 --> 02:10:13.340
of doctrine, right? The problems of the day will

02:10:13.340 --> 02:10:15.300
take care of themselves. Don't worry about the

02:10:15.300 --> 02:10:17.899
future. That is not what that sermon says at

02:10:17.899 --> 02:10:23.859
all. Not even a bit. Not a bit. It says, align

02:10:23.859 --> 02:10:27.979
yourself firmly with what is the highest. So

02:10:27.979 --> 02:10:29.659
that's what you're committed to. So what is the

02:10:29.659 --> 02:10:33.800
highest? Well, we can argue about that, but we

02:10:33.800 --> 02:10:36.560
don't have to argue that much. Beauty? Okay.

02:10:37.439 --> 02:10:41.600
Yes. Truth? Sure. Why not? Courage? Yeah, that's

02:10:41.600 --> 02:10:44.989
a good one. How about love? What's love? The

02:10:44.989 --> 02:10:47.289
desire that everything will flourish, rather

02:10:47.289 --> 02:10:49.109
than the desire that everything will suffer.

02:10:50.029 --> 02:10:52.189
So you aim at that. Aim at the highest good you

02:10:52.189 --> 02:10:55.229
can conceive of. So we'll call that God. Because

02:10:55.229 --> 02:10:57.270
we've got to call it something. And it's the

02:10:57.270 --> 02:10:59.949
integration of all things good. That's by definition.

02:10:59.989 --> 02:11:01.850
Do you believe in God? Do you believe in the

02:11:01.850 --> 02:11:05.489
good? Well, the integration of all things good,

02:11:05.550 --> 02:11:07.470
that's the superordinate thing. It's ineffable.

02:11:08.729 --> 02:11:13.439
So that's God. Aim at that. And then concentrate

02:11:13.439 --> 02:11:17.619
on the day. And you'll get, not only, you won't

02:11:17.619 --> 02:11:19.520
even get what you want, because what the hell

02:11:19.520 --> 02:11:22.760
do you know? You'll get way more than you could

02:11:22.760 --> 02:11:26.260
possibly imagine. And that's right. That's the

02:11:26.260 --> 02:11:29.140
adventure of the truth. It's like, you won't

02:11:29.140 --> 02:11:31.340
get what you want if you tell the truth. But

02:11:31.340 --> 02:11:32.859
how do you know that you're right in what you

02:11:32.859 --> 02:11:38.060
want? You don't. So how do you operate when you

02:11:38.060 --> 02:11:39.840
don't know if you're right in what you want?

02:11:40.600 --> 02:11:47.520
And the answer is, Tell the truth. Why? Well,

02:11:47.619 --> 02:11:49.819
not least because it's the adventure of your

02:11:49.819 --> 02:11:51.979
life. Like, think about it this way. Imagine

02:11:51.979 --> 02:11:54.460
you conduct yourself in deceit. You lie to yourself.

02:11:54.739 --> 02:11:56.800
You manipulate other people to get what you want.

02:11:56.939 --> 02:11:59.399
That's a form of lie. It's instrumental manipulation.

02:11:59.579 --> 02:12:01.960
It's psychopathic, Machiavellian. It's like,

02:12:01.979 --> 02:12:03.760
well, that's how you should treat people. It's

02:12:03.760 --> 02:12:06.060
like, no, you shouldn't. Why not? You won't get

02:12:06.060 --> 02:12:07.880
what you want. Yeah, but you don't know what

02:12:07.880 --> 02:12:11.079
you want. Okay, so given that... Well, doesn't

02:12:11.079 --> 02:12:13.220
that entirely depend on what your endeavor is?

02:12:13.380 --> 02:12:15.439
I mean, there's a lot of people in business that

02:12:15.439 --> 02:12:18.159
do lie and manipulate, and that's how they become

02:12:18.159 --> 02:12:20.760
successful. No. I'm not saying they should. No,

02:12:20.840 --> 02:12:23.260
I also don't think they become successful. You

02:12:23.260 --> 02:12:24.479
don't think that there's a lot of successful

02:12:24.479 --> 02:12:25.640
business people? No, I think they drive around

02:12:25.640 --> 02:12:28.399
in their $60 ,000 Corvettes and their flashy

02:12:28.399 --> 02:12:29.859
blonde thinking about when they're going to cut

02:12:29.859 --> 02:12:31.500
their throat. You don't think that Donald Trump

02:12:31.500 --> 02:12:34.359
has... You don't think he's engaged in deception?

02:12:34.960 --> 02:12:38.039
I didn't say that people don't engage in deception.

02:12:38.640 --> 02:12:41.819
I said that they do not become successful by

02:12:41.819 --> 02:12:43.600
engaging in deception. That doesn't mean they

02:12:43.600 --> 02:12:45.960
don't make a lot of money. But there's a long

02:12:45.960 --> 02:12:49.680
history of businessmen who are total sociopaths,

02:12:49.680 --> 02:12:54.579
who've achieved immense wealth. No. No? No. You

02:12:54.579 --> 02:12:57.260
don't think so? No, no. I wouldn't say I think

02:12:57.260 --> 02:13:01.199
that. Okay, what about oil sheiks that have had

02:13:01.199 --> 02:13:05.319
slaves and have treated people like total garbage,

02:13:05.380 --> 02:13:07.539
had people assassinated for criticizing them,

02:13:07.659 --> 02:13:12.899
heads of state of these bizarre countries where

02:13:12.899 --> 02:13:15.000
you do have these oligarchs that are running

02:13:15.000 --> 02:13:18.199
the military and they're in charge of massive

02:13:18.199 --> 02:13:22.560
amounts of currency? Yeah, well, that's the postmodern

02:13:22.560 --> 02:13:26.430
question in some sense. in a small way. But dictators.

02:13:26.890 --> 02:13:28.689
Yeah, I know. Look, I'm listening, man. I get

02:13:28.689 --> 02:13:31.210
it. Don't you think that dictators, like we don't

02:13:31.210 --> 02:13:33.350
even have to name them. Partly why I'm obsessed

02:13:33.350 --> 02:13:35.649
with the story of Exodus. But don't you think

02:13:35.649 --> 02:13:39.310
that there's many examples of quote -unquote

02:13:39.310 --> 02:13:43.229
successful dictators today? No. You don't think

02:13:43.229 --> 02:13:45.090
so? No, because I don't think they're successful.

02:13:45.470 --> 02:13:47.289
You don't think Kim Jong -un is a successful

02:13:47.289 --> 02:13:49.069
dictator? Only if you think that ruling over

02:13:49.069 --> 02:13:51.579
hell constitutes success. And you might say,

02:13:51.680 --> 02:13:54.039
and this is what Milton Satan did say, better

02:13:54.039 --> 02:13:56.720
to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. Kim

02:13:56.720 --> 02:14:00.079
Jong -un, fine. Yes, he's a ruler. What's his

02:14:00.079 --> 02:14:04.319
domain? Hell. You're a psychopath, you're successful,

02:14:04.579 --> 02:14:06.520
you're ruling over hell. I see what you're saying.

02:14:06.619 --> 02:14:11.380
So not successful in that he doesn't engage in

02:14:11.380 --> 02:14:13.939
love and camaraderie and he doesn't have a full...

02:14:13.939 --> 02:14:16.439
Yeah, that. Full and balanced life. Yeah, but

02:14:16.439 --> 02:14:18.460
he's got lots of money. He's got lots of money

02:14:18.460 --> 02:14:20.319
and power. And he's terrified people into kowtowing

02:14:20.319 --> 02:14:23.699
to him. Good. You want that? Go ahead, man. That's

02:14:23.699 --> 02:14:25.199
how you define success. So I see what you're

02:14:25.199 --> 02:14:28.500
saying. But success in that he's able to maintain

02:14:28.500 --> 02:14:35.260
that position. Yeah, we'll see, man. Hey, here's

02:14:35.260 --> 02:14:40.359
an example. This is a prime example. Our hierarchy

02:14:40.359 --> 02:14:42.239
is dominance hierarchy. So one of my graduate

02:14:42.239 --> 02:14:43.939
students, I used the word dominance hierarchy

02:14:43.939 --> 02:14:45.840
for years. He took me to task, former student,

02:14:46.000 --> 02:14:49.420
brilliant guy, slow to speak, but never says

02:14:49.420 --> 02:14:50.979
anything he hasn't thought through for like five

02:14:50.979 --> 02:14:53.899
years. So when he talks, I listen. He said, stop

02:14:53.899 --> 02:14:56.819
using the term dominance hierarchy. Shocked me,

02:14:56.899 --> 02:14:58.680
because it's like a term used in biology everywhere.

02:14:58.840 --> 02:15:01.420
I said, why? He said, it's full of implicit Marxist

02:15:01.420 --> 02:15:04.619
suppositions. I thought, okay, I'll think about

02:15:04.619 --> 02:15:06.159
that for a while. He said, here's the dominance

02:15:06.159 --> 02:15:09.180
hierarchy. I strip you naked, put a choke chain

02:15:09.180 --> 02:15:10.800
around you, and lead you around on the floor.

02:15:11.399 --> 02:15:14.159
It's like, that's dominant. That's not what's

02:15:14.159 --> 02:15:15.899
happening in most human hierarchies, and you

02:15:15.899 --> 02:15:19.159
know that, because you have comrades you joke

02:15:19.159 --> 02:15:21.619
with, you play with. You said that organizations

02:15:21.619 --> 02:15:24.939
that are functional aren't based on power. What

02:15:24.939 --> 02:15:28.310
are they based on? Well, not power. So not dominance.

02:15:28.590 --> 02:15:30.329
It's like, okay, I thought about that for about

02:15:30.329 --> 02:15:32.449
two years. It's like, oh, that's a really fundamental

02:15:32.449 --> 02:15:34.649
criticism. And I didn't realize that implicit

02:15:34.649 --> 02:15:36.850
Marxist presuppositions had been structuring

02:15:36.850 --> 02:15:39.210
biological thought. And that's exactly right.

02:15:39.550 --> 02:15:43.569
And so what's the proper hierarchy constituted

02:15:43.569 --> 02:15:46.090
by? It's not the expression of the will to power.

02:15:46.229 --> 02:15:49.529
That's basically the admission that satanic forces

02:15:49.529 --> 02:15:53.090
rule the world. It's the same idea. Well, what

02:15:53.090 --> 02:15:58.470
rules? Well... Satanic forces rule hell, and

02:15:58.470 --> 02:16:00.789
yes, you can be successful as a hellish ruler.

02:16:00.989 --> 02:16:03.890
Now, whether you can maintain that, Franz de

02:16:03.890 --> 02:16:07.029
Waal, world's greatest primatologist, studies

02:16:07.029 --> 02:16:10.090
chimpanzees. They're tough, and they're male

02:16:10.090 --> 02:16:12.430
-dominant, unlike bonobos. They're male -dominant,

02:16:12.430 --> 02:16:16.130
so they're patriarchal hierarchies. Okay, rough,

02:16:16.250 --> 02:16:19.970
tough chimp, can pound everybody flat, maintains

02:16:19.970 --> 02:16:24.359
the highest power through intimidation. He's

02:16:24.359 --> 02:16:27.199
got preferential sexual access to the females.

02:16:27.340 --> 02:16:29.380
He does that by chasing away the subordinates.

02:16:29.520 --> 02:16:32.440
It's like heaven. He's dominant. What happens

02:16:32.440 --> 02:16:38.559
to him? One day he has a bad day, and two subordinate

02:16:38.559 --> 02:16:40.479
males that he hasn't really been attending to

02:16:40.479 --> 02:16:43.040
and has been harassing quite a lot jump him,

02:16:43.100 --> 02:16:46.159
and they castrate him, and they tear him to pieces.

02:16:47.520 --> 02:16:50.440
That's what happens. But it doesn't always happen.

02:16:50.959 --> 02:16:56.659
Ah. Yes, it does. Genghis Khan. It depends on

02:16:56.659 --> 02:16:58.840
what you mean by always. Like, it's a time frame

02:16:58.840 --> 02:17:01.680
problem. I mean, that guy. Yeah, I know. He's

02:17:01.680 --> 02:17:04.799
like progenitor of a third of the human race.

02:17:04.879 --> 02:17:07.260
Yeah, I know. I understand. I mean, he was successful

02:17:07.260 --> 02:17:10.139
being a dominator for his entire life and was

02:17:10.139 --> 02:17:11.959
responsible for the death of somewhere between

02:17:11.959 --> 02:17:15.340
50 and 70 million people. Yeah. He changed the

02:17:15.340 --> 02:17:18.180
carbon footprint of the planet Earth during his

02:17:18.180 --> 02:17:20.440
lifetime because he killed so many people. Well,

02:17:20.540 --> 02:17:23.059
let's not underestimate the utility of oppression

02:17:23.059 --> 02:17:27.059
as a means to ruling hell. We can agree on that.

02:17:27.280 --> 02:17:29.899
But, I mean, you're asking an absolutely germane

02:17:29.899 --> 02:17:32.940
question. In the book of Exodus, the Pharaoh

02:17:32.940 --> 02:17:38.280
is a tyrant. But he's up against God. And the

02:17:38.280 --> 02:17:40.540
Pharaoh loses. And you might think, well, what

02:17:40.540 --> 02:17:43.959
does that mean? Well, it's complicated. It's

02:17:43.959 --> 02:17:45.540
a complicated story. That's why it's been around

02:17:45.540 --> 02:17:50.100
for like 3 ,000 years. And why it's the fundamental

02:17:50.100 --> 02:17:52.920
narrative, for example, it was the narrative

02:17:52.920 --> 02:17:55.020
that black Christians really identified with

02:17:55.020 --> 02:17:57.219
in the United States, which is something that's

02:17:57.219 --> 02:17:59.079
really worth thinking about, the fact that that's

02:17:59.079 --> 02:18:04.459
the case. The pharaoh is tortured by God. Well,

02:18:04.520 --> 02:18:08.059
what's God? Well, we said already, at least to

02:18:08.059 --> 02:18:10.200
some degree, God is the amalgamation of all that

02:18:10.200 --> 02:18:12.479
is good. I'm not speaking religiously when I

02:18:12.479 --> 02:18:15.459
say that. I'm speaking conceptually. God is the

02:18:15.459 --> 02:18:18.520
union of all things that are good. Okay, but

02:18:18.520 --> 02:18:22.159
that's not conceptual exactly, because that's

02:18:22.159 --> 02:18:24.159
also something that you exist in a relationship

02:18:24.159 --> 02:18:28.780
to and that you act out. It's not just an idea.

02:18:29.719 --> 02:18:33.639
Okay, so God is that spirit that calls to Abraham

02:18:33.639 --> 02:18:35.719
to have the adventure of his life instead of

02:18:35.719 --> 02:18:37.459
languishing in his father's tent, so it's called

02:18:37.459 --> 02:18:40.260
to adventure. It's truth. It's the burning bush.

02:18:40.399 --> 02:18:45.040
It's the psychedelic experience. It's God against

02:18:45.040 --> 02:18:48.600
the pharaoh. The pharaoh is a totalitarian, and

02:18:48.600 --> 02:18:52.159
he keeps imposing his edicts, running contrary

02:18:52.159 --> 02:18:55.620
to freedom, promoting slavery, let's say. Well,

02:18:55.659 --> 02:18:57.979
the kingdom fractures and crumbles continually,

02:18:58.340 --> 02:19:00.540
continually, continually. And you might say,

02:19:00.579 --> 02:19:03.399
well, time frame. Time frame's a problem, man.

02:19:04.260 --> 02:19:06.559
Maybe you can be a successful tyrant even over

02:19:06.559 --> 02:19:09.219
the course of your lifetime. But maybe you doom

02:19:09.219 --> 02:19:11.620
your country to death. You doom your country

02:19:11.620 --> 02:19:15.239
to hell. Is that success? It depends on what

02:19:15.239 --> 02:19:17.479
you mean success is because these things do depend

02:19:17.479 --> 02:19:21.340
on definitions. But all countries collapse. All

02:19:21.340 --> 02:19:25.299
of them. Every civilization that has ever existed

02:19:25.299 --> 02:19:28.440
has fallen apart. No, I don't think so. Which

02:19:28.440 --> 02:19:31.719
one's still around? Ours? Yeah, but we haven't

02:19:31.719 --> 02:19:34.479
been around that long. I don't know. You can

02:19:34.479 --> 02:19:36.360
trace... We're falling apart right now. You know

02:19:36.360 --> 02:19:39.540
this, Joe. You can trace the religious experience,

02:19:39.719 --> 02:19:42.340
the religious revelation, the central religious

02:19:42.340 --> 02:19:46.559
revelation, back at least 25 ,000 years of continued

02:19:46.559 --> 02:19:49.819
transmission. 25 ,000? Really? Sure. All the

02:19:49.819 --> 02:19:53.639
way back to the Stone Age shaman. For sure. For

02:19:53.639 --> 02:19:59.829
sure. Is that 100 %? Proven that they were experiencing

02:19:59.829 --> 02:20:02.489
altered states of consciousness and that they

02:20:02.489 --> 02:20:07.950
were imparting these lessons in a form of a religion?

02:20:10.329 --> 02:20:14.450
A hundred percent's a lot. Okay. For certain?

02:20:14.530 --> 02:20:17.790
I think, I can only say what I have concluded

02:20:17.790 --> 02:20:20.649
by looking in as many places I could possibly

02:20:20.649 --> 02:20:23.829
look, ranging from the theological through the

02:20:23.829 --> 02:20:26.549
literary, through history, through the scientific.

02:20:27.219 --> 02:20:29.920
the biochemical, all of that, trying to stack

02:20:29.920 --> 02:20:31.760
all that up. So it's multiple. It's called a

02:20:31.760 --> 02:20:34.680
multi -method, multi -trait construct analysis.

02:20:34.819 --> 02:20:37.739
The idea is if something's true, it will manifest

02:20:37.739 --> 02:20:40.340
itself in multiple different places with independent

02:20:40.340 --> 02:20:43.739
methodologies. So it's like your senses do that.

02:20:44.040 --> 02:20:46.899
Is this real? Well, I can see it. I can hear

02:20:46.899 --> 02:20:51.059
it. I can touch it. I can taste it. Five things

02:20:51.059 --> 02:20:55.600
say it's real. Is this cup there, Joe? Yes. Okay,

02:20:55.659 --> 02:21:00.780
now you said it's real too. Okay. Real. Now,

02:21:00.860 --> 02:21:05.520
is that finally real? No. But that's a different

02:21:05.520 --> 02:21:07.579
question. It's real enough for the purposes.

02:21:07.959 --> 02:21:11.639
Same thing here. I think the idea that, like

02:21:11.639 --> 02:21:14.319
Jack and the Beanstalk, the magic beans, climbing

02:21:14.319 --> 02:21:18.319
up the magic stalk to heaven, that's a shamanic

02:21:18.319 --> 02:21:21.059
tale. We know some fairy tales are 15 ,000 years

02:21:21.059 --> 02:21:25.500
old. That one's... 100 ,000 years old? Is it

02:21:25.500 --> 02:21:28.420
really? We don't know. Right. But that story,

02:21:28.620 --> 02:21:31.399
like Mircea Eliade wrote a book called Shamanism.

02:21:31.399 --> 02:21:33.719
He's a great historian of religions. And he looked

02:21:33.719 --> 02:21:35.899
at the commonality of shamanic experience across

02:21:35.899 --> 02:21:38.719
multiple cultures. It's very stable. He thought

02:21:38.719 --> 02:21:42.219
that psychedelic -induced shamanic practices

02:21:42.219 --> 02:21:45.399
were a corruption of the original tradition.

02:21:45.959 --> 02:21:48.000
I don't think that's right. I think it's wrong.

02:21:48.159 --> 02:21:50.079
We had a conversation before the podcast started

02:21:50.079 --> 02:21:53.680
about Brian Murawski's work and The Immortality

02:21:53.680 --> 02:21:56.760
Key, which is an amazing book. And I was, you

02:21:56.760 --> 02:22:00.360
know, we were talking about that. sort of field

02:22:00.360 --> 02:22:02.979
of study that has emerged in harvard now because

02:22:02.979 --> 02:22:06.559
of brian's work and that they're now and ruck

02:22:06.559 --> 02:22:09.899
yeah yes um and gordon wassell yes gordon was

02:22:09.899 --> 02:22:13.180
crazy bastards mexico from the 50s right so it

02:22:13.180 --> 02:22:15.799
was life magazine let's discover psilocybin mushrooms

02:22:15.799 --> 02:22:22.100
yeah oops um that is now being really it's not

02:22:22.100 --> 02:22:26.319
fringe anymore Yeah, it still is. It is sort

02:22:26.319 --> 02:22:28.559
of, but... Yeah, wait till it's not, man. Yeah,

02:22:28.559 --> 02:22:30.940
well, it is right, and there's a lot of people

02:22:30.940 --> 02:22:33.750
that still aren't aware, but at least... at least

02:22:33.750 --> 02:22:37.049
in academia, at least in Harvard, it's now being

02:22:37.049 --> 02:22:38.809
pursued with sincerity. Roland Griffith's work

02:22:38.809 --> 02:22:40.670
has helped that a lot too. The work he's done

02:22:40.670 --> 02:22:43.030
with psilocybin in the lab, which is like really

02:22:43.030 --> 02:22:45.549
solid scientifically. That's John Hopkins, right?

02:22:45.590 --> 02:22:48.870
Yeah, yeah. And also who did the DMT work, Rick

02:22:48.870 --> 02:22:51.450
Strassman. Yes. Poor Rick. I love that guy. Yeah,

02:22:51.510 --> 02:22:53.350
he had to stop doing it really. It's like, uh

02:22:53.350 --> 02:22:56.590
-oh. Look what's happening. What do you mean?

02:22:56.590 --> 02:22:58.510
All these people get shot out. Well, he didn't

02:22:58.510 --> 02:23:01.309
know what to do with it. He's a really traditional.

02:23:03.840 --> 02:23:05.979
biological, psychological researcher and he said,

02:23:06.000 --> 02:23:07.639
well, we'll measure people's heart rate and we'll

02:23:07.639 --> 02:23:09.860
check their psychophysiological responses and,

02:23:09.879 --> 02:23:12.239
you know, we'll see what this DMT does. It's

02:23:12.239 --> 02:23:14.260
like, and then all these people came back from

02:23:14.260 --> 02:23:16.639
the experience and said, Hey, I got shot right

02:23:16.639 --> 02:23:18.739
out of my body, and I went into a domain where

02:23:18.739 --> 02:23:21.180
I met alien beings. It's like, you were dreaming.

02:23:21.260 --> 02:23:23.479
No, no, you don't understand. I've dreamt before,

02:23:23.760 --> 02:23:26.540
and this was not only real, it was the most real

02:23:26.540 --> 02:23:28.620
thing I've ever experienced. He said, well, that's

02:23:28.620 --> 02:23:30.780
a Jungian archetype. He said, well, no, it was,

02:23:30.879 --> 02:23:34.020
you don't get it. It was more real than reality

02:23:34.020 --> 02:23:37.100
itself. And every single person came back and

02:23:37.100 --> 02:23:40.260
said that. And so I read The Spirit Molecule,

02:23:40.340 --> 02:23:42.120
which is a very interesting book, and by the

02:23:42.120 --> 02:23:44.600
end of it, Strassman is... Well, he kind of got

02:23:44.600 --> 02:23:46.440
shell -shocked like our whole culture did when

02:23:46.440 --> 02:23:49.579
it discovered LSD. Well, he had to be very careful

02:23:49.579 --> 02:23:52.059
in his depictions too because he can't talk about

02:23:52.059 --> 02:23:53.920
personal experiences because he wants to be taken

02:23:53.920 --> 02:23:58.760
seriously as an actual researcher. And good for

02:23:58.760 --> 02:24:00.579
him because he should be treading lightly in

02:24:00.579 --> 02:24:03.920
that domain just like the Johns Hopkins teams

02:24:03.920 --> 02:24:07.920
does. They're very careful. But it's such a tragedy

02:24:07.920 --> 02:24:11.409
that you can't talk about it. Yeah, well, we're

02:24:11.409 --> 02:24:13.250
talking about it more than we did 10 years ago.

02:24:13.389 --> 02:24:15.969
Yeah. And much more carefully than we did in

02:24:15.969 --> 02:24:18.750
the 60s. Yeah, well, there's no Timothy Leary

02:24:18.750 --> 02:24:20.549
guy that's telling everybody to tune in, turn

02:24:20.549 --> 02:24:22.889
out, and drop out. I had his old position at

02:24:22.889 --> 02:24:25.729
Harvard. Yeah? No kidding. Yeah, no kidding.

02:24:25.930 --> 02:24:27.329
Isn't that something, eh? Wow, that's pretty

02:24:27.329 --> 02:24:29.770
wild. Yeah, that's for sure. I knew people there

02:24:29.770 --> 02:24:31.909
that knew him. Yeah, it was really something,

02:24:32.010 --> 02:24:34.370
I thought. Oh, he taught personality at Harvard.

02:24:34.469 --> 02:24:37.299
He had the same position as me. The whole Kesey

02:24:37.299 --> 02:24:39.760
thing and the Merry Pranksters. And I just think

02:24:39.760 --> 02:24:42.399
it was such an upheaval. That's Electro -Kool

02:24:42.399 --> 02:24:44.420
-Aid Acid Test. Man, that's a great book. It

02:24:44.420 --> 02:24:46.479
was such an upheaval of the current state of

02:24:46.479 --> 02:24:49.360
culture in the 1960s. It's like the very definition

02:24:49.360 --> 02:24:52.020
of upheaval. Instead of bringing people along,

02:24:52.520 --> 02:24:55.280
so many people were opposed to them. Yeah, well,

02:24:55.440 --> 02:25:01.440
tune in. Yeah. Okay. Turn on. Yeah. Okay. Be

02:25:01.440 --> 02:25:05.040
better. Yeah, that would have been better than

02:25:05.040 --> 02:25:07.799
dropout. Yeah, a lot better. Yeah. A lot better.

02:25:08.500 --> 02:25:11.239
That's why the hero, in the hero's journey. So

02:25:11.239 --> 02:25:14.059
imagine you're taking psychedelics. You're the

02:25:14.059 --> 02:25:16.920
hero. Out there into the unknown to gather new

02:25:16.920 --> 02:25:21.280
information, to confront the dragon, the terrors

02:25:21.280 --> 02:25:23.579
of your imagination, to bring back the gold,

02:25:23.739 --> 02:25:28.360
to acquire the gold. Now what? You got the gold.

02:25:28.540 --> 02:25:30.809
Right, now what? Share it with the community.

02:25:31.129 --> 02:25:34.649
Right. So when the Hobbit comes back from his

02:25:34.649 --> 02:25:38.409
great trip, and that's also a retelling of the

02:25:38.409 --> 02:25:41.569
oldest story we know, the Lord of the Rings and

02:25:41.569 --> 02:25:44.930
the Hobbit. And Tolkien knew this. I'm not making

02:25:44.930 --> 02:25:47.409
this up. And he talked to C .S. Lewis a lot,

02:25:47.489 --> 02:25:50.989
who is a radical and extraordinarily well -informed

02:25:50.989 --> 02:25:53.229
Christian. All of this is lurking in the background

02:25:53.229 --> 02:25:55.520
of that. That's why that book had such... captured

02:25:55.520 --> 02:25:58.219
the imagination to such a degree. It reintroduces

02:25:58.219 --> 02:26:01.799
shamanic level religious preconceptions back

02:26:01.799 --> 02:26:04.360
into popular culture. That's why it has that

02:26:04.360 --> 02:26:07.000
power. Because how else do you account for it?

02:26:07.020 --> 02:26:08.760
It has religious significance. That's why everyone

02:26:08.760 --> 02:26:11.659
read it. It's the definition of religious significance,

02:26:11.920 --> 02:26:14.440
that it was attractive enough that everyone read.

02:26:14.659 --> 02:26:17.760
Well, when The Hobbit comes back, it's like all

02:26:17.760 --> 02:26:20.059
the heroes who come back from that journey...

02:26:21.100 --> 02:26:23.799
share what they have with the community and integrate

02:26:23.799 --> 02:26:26.600
it. It's the opposite of dropping out. Timothy

02:26:26.600 --> 02:26:29.860
Leary let his political, his unformed political

02:26:29.860 --> 02:26:33.920
preconceptions contaminate the sacredness of

02:26:33.920 --> 02:26:36.899
his experience. And he warped the entire culture

02:26:36.899 --> 02:26:39.860
in doing so and pretty much put an end to psychedelic

02:26:39.860 --> 02:26:43.760
drug research for like 50 years. Drop out? No,

02:26:43.780 --> 02:26:48.780
no. Man up. Get your act together. Get your act

02:26:48.780 --> 02:26:51.190
together. Because you get an intimation in states

02:26:51.190 --> 02:26:53.670
like that of, first of all, the fact that things

02:26:53.670 --> 02:26:57.469
are infinitely more than you could possibly realize,

02:26:57.709 --> 02:27:02.459
including you. Like, really? Like, really? And

02:27:02.459 --> 02:27:05.979
that's unbearable in some sense. Don't you think

02:27:05.979 --> 02:27:08.819
that it was in response to the rigidity of the

02:27:08.819 --> 02:27:11.020
times, though, that you're dealing with this?

02:27:11.020 --> 02:27:13.239
No, I'm not saying it's an excuse. But yes, it

02:27:13.239 --> 02:27:16.760
was. The 1950s were, I mean, and then also dealing

02:27:16.760 --> 02:27:20.559
with the Korean War and then Vietnam. There was

02:27:20.559 --> 02:27:24.239
so much to oppose from their perspective that

02:27:24.239 --> 02:27:27.739
society was... almost impossibly flawed. I got

02:27:27.739 --> 02:27:30.620
a good story for that. So I went and met Guy

02:27:30.620 --> 02:27:32.559
Ritchie when I was in the UK. So that was real

02:27:32.559 --> 02:27:34.719
fun. Yeah, he's so hospitable. He built these

02:27:34.719 --> 02:27:37.459
huge barbecues. He's manufacturing these bloody

02:27:37.459 --> 02:27:39.379
things, same size as your table here. He makes

02:27:39.379 --> 02:27:41.719
barbecues? Copper top, yeah. Really? Yeah, he

02:27:41.719 --> 02:27:43.780
wants everybody to gather around a fire so he

02:27:43.780 --> 02:27:46.139
can be hospitable. So he built a bloody barbecue.

02:27:46.559 --> 02:27:49.020
Like it took seven years to build the prototypes

02:27:49.020 --> 02:27:52.200
properly. They're worth like $50 ,000. He's marked,

02:27:52.299 --> 02:27:54.579
it's such, and he's so hospitable. Where do you

02:27:54.579 --> 02:27:56.549
buy a Guy Ritchie? barbecue. From Guy Ritchie.

02:27:56.649 --> 02:27:59.110
Come on. Yeah, there you go. The gentleman. Get

02:27:59.110 --> 02:28:00.670
the fuck out of here. Yeah, so there's these

02:28:00.670 --> 02:28:02.870
braziers on both sides. Outdoor grill table is

02:28:02.870 --> 02:28:05.030
now available. You sit outside in the cold in

02:28:05.030 --> 02:28:08.329
his tent and there's cloth around the outside

02:28:08.329 --> 02:28:09.850
of the table so you can put your knees underneath

02:28:09.850 --> 02:28:12.149
and a stove in the middle so it keeps you warm.

02:28:12.350 --> 02:28:13.329
Look at this craziness. Yeah, well that's where

02:28:13.329 --> 02:28:15.389
we were. So it's a whole structure. Yeah, and

02:28:15.389 --> 02:28:17.430
then he was roasting these huge steaks in this

02:28:17.430 --> 02:28:19.389
charcoal brazier and cutting them up and feeding

02:28:19.389 --> 02:28:21.930
them to us. Wow. And he wanted everybody to gather

02:28:21.930 --> 02:28:24.319
around the fire. He's such a fucking interesting

02:28:24.319 --> 02:28:25.700
guy. He is, man. You know, he's a legitimate

02:28:25.700 --> 02:28:28.319
Brazilian jiu -jitsu black belt. I didn't know

02:28:28.319 --> 02:28:31.260
that. There's not a lot of them. I mean, there's

02:28:31.260 --> 02:28:33.680
quite a few of them. There's not a lot of them

02:28:33.680 --> 02:28:37.239
that are like a successful movie producer, director.

02:28:37.760 --> 02:28:40.840
Well, it's like UFC fighter podcast geniuses.

02:28:40.840 --> 02:28:44.799
He's not just a Brazilian jiu -jitsu black belt.

02:28:44.860 --> 02:28:47.020
He's a black belt under Henzo Gracie. It's like

02:28:47.020 --> 02:28:49.920
one of the most esteemed schools in the world.

02:28:50.200 --> 02:28:54.000
It's like the lineage is from the original source

02:28:54.000 --> 02:28:56.159
of Brazilian jiu -jitsu. I mean, he's from the

02:28:56.159 --> 02:28:58.840
Gracie family. Right, right. It's a very respected

02:28:58.840 --> 02:29:01.700
black belt. You know, his characters in the movies,

02:29:01.860 --> 02:29:05.500
they ad -lib that dialogue. What? Absolutely.

02:29:05.799 --> 02:29:08.739
I talked to Matthew McConaughey about this first.

02:29:08.940 --> 02:29:11.100
I said, Richie, and then I asked Guy Ritchie

02:29:11.100 --> 02:29:13.799
about it. He sets up the scenes, and he has the

02:29:13.799 --> 02:29:16.680
story in mind, and then he pays real attention

02:29:16.680 --> 02:29:19.020
to the context, and he lets the actors ad -lib.

02:29:19.620 --> 02:29:21.719
Well, that makes sense because it seems so organic.

02:29:21.780 --> 02:29:24.040
No kidding, and the dialogue's so sharp and witty

02:29:24.040 --> 02:29:29.020
and on point. So I watched... King Arthur. And

02:29:29.020 --> 02:29:31.920
it's a chaotic movie. He's trying to do a lot

02:29:31.920 --> 02:29:34.180
of things at once. And I don't think that technically

02:29:34.180 --> 02:29:36.600
it's one of his most successful movies. But there's

02:29:36.600 --> 02:29:38.500
parts of it that are extremely interesting. And

02:29:38.500 --> 02:29:43.139
so one part is, this is very, very cool. So when

02:29:43.139 --> 02:29:47.700
Arthur first grips the sword, he's blown off

02:29:47.700 --> 02:29:50.280
it. Now he can pull it out of the stone because

02:29:50.280 --> 02:29:53.319
he's the guy. He's the long lost son of the rightful

02:29:53.319 --> 02:29:57.639
king. Long lost. He said, well, wasn't everybody

02:29:57.639 --> 02:30:00.299
opposing the tyranny of the times? It's like,

02:30:00.360 --> 02:30:02.959
yeah, welcome to the world, man. Welcome to the

02:30:02.959 --> 02:30:05.200
world. We're all long lost sons of the rightful

02:30:05.200 --> 02:30:08.479
king. And the king's now a tyrant. And don't

02:30:08.479 --> 02:30:10.219
we have to deal with that? And the answer is,

02:30:10.299 --> 02:30:14.440
bloody well, right, we do. So Arthur, who's got

02:30:14.440 --> 02:30:16.860
his eyes open, and he's... born in straightened

02:30:16.860 --> 02:30:18.879
circumstances and has to grow up street smart

02:30:18.879 --> 02:30:21.920
and his friends are all funny and they engage

02:30:21.920 --> 02:30:26.739
in witty repartee. He knows the world from the

02:30:26.739 --> 02:30:28.899
ground up, grabs the sword, he can pull it out

02:30:28.899 --> 02:30:31.860
of the stone, but he's blown right off it. He

02:30:31.860 --> 02:30:34.079
can't wield it because he has visions of his

02:30:34.079 --> 02:30:38.180
evil uncle who conspired with feminine forces

02:30:38.180 --> 02:30:41.620
of chaos and killed his father, murdered his

02:30:41.620 --> 02:30:44.360
father and his mother. So his uncle is a murderer.

02:30:45.069 --> 02:30:48.030
His uncle's a murderer. Well, so is your uncle.

02:30:48.850 --> 02:30:52.129
And so is my uncle. That's our historical guilt

02:30:52.129 --> 02:30:54.090
that the lefties weaponize all the time. It's

02:30:54.090 --> 02:30:56.790
like the soil we walk on is soaked with blood.

02:30:57.610 --> 02:31:01.489
And Arthur can't wield the sword that's his rightfully

02:31:01.489 --> 02:31:04.870
because he has visions of historical atrocity.

02:31:05.709 --> 02:31:08.149
It's like, welcome to the world, man. It's like,

02:31:08.170 --> 02:31:10.149
how do you know your masculine ambition isn't

02:31:10.149 --> 02:31:12.209
part of the world -destroying force? Because,

02:31:12.250 --> 02:31:17.559
yes, it is. So then why, when I accuse you of

02:31:17.559 --> 02:31:20.940
racism and so forth, and your white privilege

02:31:20.940 --> 02:31:23.659
and your masculine privilege, why don't you just

02:31:23.659 --> 02:31:26.440
wander off in a corner and feel terrible and

02:31:26.440 --> 02:31:29.219
apologize? And the answer is, you probably will.

02:31:29.520 --> 02:31:32.219
Because most people do. You don't, but most people

02:31:32.219 --> 02:31:34.340
do. And I know why. Partly because they're reasonable.

02:31:34.879 --> 02:31:37.879
If 30 people come after you and say, you're a

02:31:37.879 --> 02:31:42.940
racist tyrant, and there's 30 of them, You go

02:31:42.940 --> 02:31:44.860
home and you think, 30 people think I'm a racist

02:31:44.860 --> 02:31:48.479
tyrant. And like, I got my flaws, man. And I

02:31:48.479 --> 02:31:50.260
might be a little racist because we all have

02:31:50.260 --> 02:31:52.319
in -group preferences. And I shoot my mouth off

02:31:52.319 --> 02:31:54.139
sometimes. And I haven't always been the way

02:31:54.139 --> 02:31:56.680
with women that I should be. And maybe I've mistreated

02:31:56.680 --> 02:31:58.520
some people. And maybe I did it too much. And

02:31:58.520 --> 02:32:01.899
sorry. And then you're a shell, right? Another

02:32:01.899 --> 02:32:04.700
mob comes for you. It doesn't work at all. Do

02:32:04.700 --> 02:32:09.120
you think that this is a factor? this new way

02:32:09.120 --> 02:32:11.979
of communicating where everyone's communicating

02:32:11.979 --> 02:32:15.340
all at once it's not just these small groups

02:32:15.340 --> 02:32:17.500
of people that you're familiar with that are

02:32:17.500 --> 02:32:20.120
in your tribe or that you interact with from

02:32:20.120 --> 02:32:23.540
other tribes this is the whole this is like unprecedented

02:32:23.540 --> 02:32:26.799
volume of human beings I think I think that's

02:32:26.799 --> 02:32:31.079
part of it I mean I've stopped almost stopped

02:32:31.079 --> 02:32:34.959
reading Twitter comments Almost. Yeah, well.

02:32:35.180 --> 02:32:37.479
Still hanging in there? Yeah, and I'm not exactly

02:32:37.479 --> 02:32:41.459
sure why. Some of it's like pathological curiosity.

02:32:42.239 --> 02:32:44.719
I don't think it's good for you. No, I don't

02:32:44.719 --> 02:32:54.239
think so either, but in any case, Twitter really

02:32:54.239 --> 02:32:57.340
can be a cesspool, and people say things to me

02:32:57.340 --> 02:33:01.620
on Twitter that they would never say to me face

02:33:01.620 --> 02:33:03.729
-to -face. They certainly see things about you

02:33:03.729 --> 02:33:05.569
that they would never dare to say face to face.

02:33:05.709 --> 02:33:09.809
But I mean, not only because probably it wouldn't

02:33:09.809 --> 02:33:11.770
end well if they said something like that face

02:33:11.770 --> 02:33:14.350
to face. That's part of it. But also partly because

02:33:14.350 --> 02:33:16.809
people just don't do that face to face. Well,

02:33:16.850 --> 02:33:20.209
you know what it is? It's talk. So if you are

02:33:20.209 --> 02:33:23.850
working on an assembly line and you're next to

02:33:23.850 --> 02:33:28.680
some other guy. And, you know, he brings up Ricky

02:33:28.680 --> 02:33:31.440
Gervais. And you're like, fuck that guy. That

02:33:31.440 --> 02:33:33.379
guy's a piece of shit. And he starts saying all

02:33:33.379 --> 02:33:35.159
these horrible things about the guy. That's just

02:33:35.159 --> 02:33:37.979
talk, right? Well, this is just talk, but it's

02:33:37.979 --> 02:33:39.819
written down. The first person to say that to

02:33:39.819 --> 02:33:41.719
me is Louis C .K. He was talking to me about

02:33:41.719 --> 02:33:43.059
the way people talk on Twitter. He goes, it's

02:33:43.059 --> 02:33:45.260
just talk. Like, people talk like that all the

02:33:45.260 --> 02:33:48.100
time. But now when you see it written, you think

02:33:48.100 --> 02:33:50.479
it is different than just talk. Because it's

02:33:50.479 --> 02:33:52.520
not the way they would talk to you. So Ricky

02:33:52.520 --> 02:33:55.649
Gervais visited that assembly. And he was talking

02:33:55.649 --> 02:33:58.809
to those guys. Then they would have to reflect

02:33:58.809 --> 02:34:01.270
on the fact that he's a human being. Right. He's

02:34:01.270 --> 02:34:03.229
right in front of them. You would never say the

02:34:03.229 --> 02:34:05.690
things that you, even if he was not an imposing,

02:34:05.790 --> 02:34:07.829
threatening person, but you would never say the

02:34:07.829 --> 02:34:09.909
things that you would say to that guy when Ricky's

02:34:09.909 --> 02:34:11.350
not there. You say the same thing if you're in

02:34:11.350 --> 02:34:13.790
your car, you know, and somebody cuts you off.

02:34:13.930 --> 02:34:15.469
That's different. Son of a bitch. Well, it's

02:34:15.469 --> 02:34:18.309
kind of the same because there's a barrier between

02:34:18.309 --> 02:34:20.219
you and him. Right, but you know why. Do you

02:34:20.219 --> 02:34:22.659
know why they're so accelerated? It's because

02:34:22.659 --> 02:34:25.139
of the speed the car's moving. Your reactions

02:34:25.139 --> 02:34:27.379
have to be very quick. So you're in a heightened

02:34:27.379 --> 02:34:29.700
state. It's a completely different... People

02:34:29.700 --> 02:34:32.360
always want to say that... No, if people were

02:34:32.360 --> 02:34:35.139
stationary... and they were in cars, and they

02:34:35.139 --> 02:34:37.180
looked over at each other, they would never talk

02:34:37.180 --> 02:34:38.819
to each other the way they do when they're driving

02:34:38.819 --> 02:34:41.180
fast. Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's a physiological

02:34:41.180 --> 02:34:44.620
condition. Because you're reacting to potential

02:34:44.620 --> 02:34:47.520
emergencies. You're going 65 miles an hour. You're

02:34:47.520 --> 02:34:49.899
like, hey, hey, hey. Ah, you fucking idiot! What

02:34:49.899 --> 02:34:52.040
are you doing in front of me? It's natural. It's

02:34:52.040 --> 02:34:53.799
natural. Yeah, that's a good point. You have

02:34:53.799 --> 02:34:56.219
to learn to manage that, and that's not disgust

02:34:56.219 --> 02:34:58.239
or talk to people. People say don't get road

02:34:58.239 --> 02:35:00.579
rage, but they don't tell you why you're getting

02:35:00.579 --> 02:35:02.879
road rage. A lot of you are getting road rage.

02:35:03.020 --> 02:35:05.020
It's just your physiological response to the

02:35:05.020 --> 02:35:07.379
fact that you're going fast and your body's required

02:35:07.379 --> 02:35:10.120
to make very quick movements. Yeah, yeah. Fair

02:35:10.120 --> 02:35:11.399
enough. You're in a heightened state because

02:35:11.399 --> 02:35:13.879
of the speed. That's very different than talking

02:35:13.879 --> 02:35:16.299
shit about Ricky Gervais if he's not next to

02:35:16.299 --> 02:35:18.139
you. Right, but it might be akin to what's happening

02:35:18.139 --> 02:35:20.120
on Twitter because everything is happening very,

02:35:20.159 --> 02:35:22.840
very fast on Twitter. It is, but it's also because

02:35:22.840 --> 02:35:26.399
people are addicts. The real problem with a lot

02:35:26.399 --> 02:35:28.079
of what's going on on Twitter, and there's a

02:35:28.079 --> 02:35:29.819
bunch of people that I follow on Twitter that

02:35:29.819 --> 02:35:31.319
don't have anything to do with me. They're just

02:35:31.319 --> 02:35:33.500
negative people. And I don't even follow them,

02:35:33.500 --> 02:35:35.719
follow them. I bookmark their page. And then

02:35:35.719 --> 02:35:38.459
I go visit them because they're so fucking crazy.

02:35:38.659 --> 02:35:42.579
And I see them 12, 13 hours a day. tweeting.

02:35:42.899 --> 02:35:46.379
It's straight madness. And it's 100 % an addiction.

02:35:46.579 --> 02:35:48.979
And the amount of interactions that they have

02:35:48.979 --> 02:35:50.700
that are negative, the amount of expressions

02:35:50.700 --> 02:35:52.500
they have that are negative are overwhelming.

02:35:52.959 --> 02:35:55.659
That is an addiction. It's an outrage addiction.

02:35:55.940 --> 02:35:58.899
They're addicted to recreational outrage and

02:35:58.899 --> 02:36:01.760
the response to their recreational outrage. It's

02:36:01.760 --> 02:36:04.420
constant and consistent. It doesn't vary. They're

02:36:04.420 --> 02:36:06.120
not learning anything. They're not growing and

02:36:06.120 --> 02:36:08.520
expanding the way they communicate with people

02:36:08.520 --> 02:36:12.540
and becoming better human beings. and more kind

02:36:12.540 --> 02:36:14.860
human beings. They're addicted to outrage. Imagine

02:36:14.860 --> 02:36:18.200
you do get a kick from that sort of spontaneous

02:36:18.200 --> 02:36:21.500
outrage. But when you manifest that in the real

02:36:21.500 --> 02:36:24.579
world, there's a cost. Yes. And the cost is,

02:36:24.639 --> 02:36:27.399
look the hell out, because maybe you said it

02:36:27.399 --> 02:36:29.260
to the wrong person. Well, you also can't get

02:36:29.260 --> 02:36:31.540
that many interactions in the real world. So

02:36:31.540 --> 02:36:34.260
one of the problems, I like that. I think that's

02:36:34.260 --> 02:36:37.180
very interesting that there's a hit. Because

02:36:37.180 --> 02:36:39.959
the thing about anger, anger is a mix of two

02:36:39.959 --> 02:36:43.739
emotions. It's negative emotion. Yes. But it's

02:36:43.739 --> 02:36:45.959
also positive. It's approach. Because if it wasn't,

02:36:45.959 --> 02:36:47.959
you couldn't fight when you were angry. Let's

02:36:47.959 --> 02:36:49.739
talk about your own comments. When you read your

02:36:49.739 --> 02:36:51.520
own comments, you could read many comments like,

02:36:51.559 --> 02:36:53.120
thank you, Jordan, that book was really enlightening.

02:36:53.319 --> 02:36:56.780
And then one will come in and go, you transphobic

02:36:56.780 --> 02:36:59.680
piece of shit. You're responsible for the death

02:36:59.680 --> 02:37:01.500
of thousands of children who've killed themselves

02:37:01.500 --> 02:37:03.260
because they can't express their true gender

02:37:03.260 --> 02:37:05.899
identity. And you'll see that one. That won't

02:37:05.899 --> 02:37:07.639
have an effect on you. That's the same as these

02:37:07.639 --> 02:37:09.940
other people. These other people that are interacting,

02:37:10.100 --> 02:37:14.200
we are designed to seek out danger. When danger

02:37:14.200 --> 02:37:17.940
comes our way, we're prepared to react to danger

02:37:17.940 --> 02:37:20.139
in a much different way than a friendly smile

02:37:20.139 --> 02:37:23.219
or a casual compliment. Casual compliments and

02:37:23.219 --> 02:37:25.600
friendly smiles are nice, but danger is something

02:37:25.600 --> 02:37:28.239
you have to pay attention to. That's the addiction

02:37:28.239 --> 02:37:30.700
of Twitter. So the kind of comment that you described

02:37:30.700 --> 02:37:33.069
where someone will say, I don't agree with your

02:37:33.069 --> 02:37:35.129
views and you're hurting all these people. Those

02:37:35.129 --> 02:37:38.909
comments don't make me angry. The misrepresentation

02:37:38.909 --> 02:37:39.989
of your positions. Yeah, that doesn't really

02:37:39.989 --> 02:37:43.649
make me angry. What makes me angry is, like,

02:37:43.729 --> 02:37:46.270
I think it's something like, it's like casual

02:37:46.270 --> 02:37:49.489
insult. That makes me angry. And it's because

02:37:49.489 --> 02:37:56.729
I think... That's a tough one, man. It's just

02:37:56.729 --> 02:38:00.149
shitposting. Yeah, but it's... The problem with

02:38:00.149 --> 02:38:02.549
Twitter is that the price of being a prick has

02:38:02.549 --> 02:38:05.350
fallen to zero. Yeah. Okay, but that's not true

02:38:05.350 --> 02:38:07.909
in real life. So the question is, if someone's

02:38:07.909 --> 02:38:10.770
being a thoughtless prick to you on Twitter,

02:38:10.969 --> 02:38:13.790
I mean, maybe one, and maybe this is the proper

02:38:13.790 --> 02:38:15.670
answer, is that you should just ignore it. Yes.

02:38:15.750 --> 02:38:20.010
But the thing is, ignoring psychopathic behavior

02:38:20.010 --> 02:38:23.909
does not make it go away. Well, it goes away

02:38:23.909 --> 02:38:26.989
to you. Yeah. That's all that's important, Jordan.

02:38:27.010 --> 02:38:30.430
You can't control the interactions of the 7 .5

02:38:30.430 --> 02:38:33.129
billion people on Earth, but you can control

02:38:33.129 --> 02:38:35.950
how you interface with them. Yep. That's the

02:38:35.950 --> 02:38:38.479
difference. And if you continue to interface

02:38:38.479 --> 02:38:41.239
with people who one out of ten is going to say

02:38:41.239 --> 02:38:42.979
something fucked up to you, and that's going

02:38:42.979 --> 02:38:45.420
to hurt your day, it's going to hurt your feelings.

02:38:45.479 --> 02:38:47.940
I have friends that will go on Twitter all day

02:38:47.940 --> 02:38:49.760
long, comics, and they'll read comments about

02:38:49.760 --> 02:38:51.680
them. And then you'll see them at the club. They'll

02:38:51.680 --> 02:38:53.219
be a fucking wreck. Yeah, yeah. And they'll be

02:38:53.219 --> 02:38:55.120
like, hey, bro, stop reading that shit. And I'll

02:38:55.120 --> 02:38:58.319
tell them. I'll do podcasts with comics, and

02:38:58.319 --> 02:39:00.719
they'll say something that's fucked up, or they'll

02:39:00.719 --> 02:39:04.040
go a little too far, or they'll talk over people

02:39:04.040 --> 02:39:06.639
too much. And I'll tell them afterwards. Don't

02:39:06.639 --> 02:39:08.540
read the comments. Just stay the fuck out of

02:39:08.540 --> 02:39:10.399
the comments. They never listen. They never listen.

02:39:10.440 --> 02:39:12.600
It's impulsive. You want to know. You look at

02:39:12.600 --> 02:39:14.239
it. You've got to learn how to. Well, it's also

02:39:14.239 --> 02:39:16.620
the case that people, you know, it's not all

02:39:16.620 --> 02:39:19.040
bad that drives people to that, too, because

02:39:19.040 --> 02:39:22.899
someone who's immune from social criticism is

02:39:22.899 --> 02:39:26.579
a psychopath. And so you want to be open to feedback,

02:39:27.000 --> 02:39:31.760
you know. And so I'm not. Discounting what you're

02:39:31.760 --> 02:39:33.579
saying. And Twitter in particular is hard to

02:39:33.579 --> 02:39:35.879
deal with. I read YouTube comments, thousands

02:39:35.879 --> 02:39:38.559
and thousands of them. But that's a different

02:39:38.559 --> 02:39:41.579
game. It's more men. Well, it's also way more...

02:39:41.579 --> 02:39:44.899
It's also... Almost all the comments on my YouTube

02:39:44.899 --> 02:39:47.200
channel are positive. Really? It's like 99%.

02:39:47.200 --> 02:39:48.840
That's interesting. Unless we're talking about

02:39:48.840 --> 02:39:52.440
political issues. I found that YouTube comments

02:39:52.440 --> 02:39:55.239
were the first things I stopped reading. Because...

02:39:55.440 --> 02:39:59.180
They were so negative sometimes and so disproportionately

02:39:59.180 --> 02:40:03.299
angry about takes on certain subjects and the

02:40:03.299 --> 02:40:07.600
way they would exaggerate interactions with people

02:40:07.600 --> 02:40:11.739
and make it seem like these were horrible, aggressive

02:40:11.739 --> 02:40:15.040
exchanges when they weren't. They were just casual

02:40:15.040 --> 02:40:17.139
disagreements between people that sometimes are

02:40:17.139 --> 02:40:20.920
clunky. Right, right. Well, I've been fortunate

02:40:20.920 --> 02:40:23.020
with the YouTube channel in particular because

02:40:23.020 --> 02:40:26.659
it – It has become a very, very positive place.

02:40:27.100 --> 02:40:29.379
And so I'm very happy about that. I'll give you

02:40:29.379 --> 02:40:30.940
an example. I was going to say something, but

02:40:30.940 --> 02:40:32.920
let me finish my thought. Because what I was

02:40:32.920 --> 02:40:35.920
going to say was what I realized is I don't need

02:40:35.920 --> 02:40:39.479
to read those. And those don't necessarily represent

02:40:39.479 --> 02:40:42.680
truth. But what they do represent is someone

02:40:42.680 --> 02:40:45.920
having a clunky reaction to my clunky reaction.

02:40:46.239 --> 02:40:49.219
And maybe they've drawn all sorts of conclusions

02:40:49.219 --> 02:40:53.299
and they've... decided to look at it in the least

02:40:53.299 --> 02:40:57.899
charitable way, and I can choose whether or not

02:40:57.899 --> 02:41:00.780
I let that affect me. And the best way to not

02:41:00.780 --> 02:41:03.260
let that affect me is to not read it. And the

02:41:03.260 --> 02:41:06.600
best way to make sure that I'm not immune to

02:41:06.600 --> 02:41:09.719
criticism is my own self -criticism, which is

02:41:09.719 --> 02:41:13.860
ruthless. I'm very introspective, and I'm a horrible

02:41:13.860 --> 02:41:14.899
critic of myself. Well, you're also talking to

02:41:14.899 --> 02:41:18.959
people all the time. And if you don't manage

02:41:18.959 --> 02:41:22.420
that, properly you're going to be punished in

02:41:22.420 --> 02:41:24.399
the discussion yes and you're going to be punished

02:41:24.399 --> 02:41:27.239
afterward because people won't listen to it like

02:41:27.239 --> 02:41:29.180
well also i'll be punished because i'll hate

02:41:29.180 --> 02:41:32.079
myself right i'll be angry at myself for my poor

02:41:32.079 --> 02:41:34.579
handling of any sort of verbal situation but

02:41:34.579 --> 02:41:38.780
in doing that i have become much happier i've

02:41:38.780 --> 02:41:42.399
become much nicer because it's made me think

02:41:42.399 --> 02:41:45.139
of all of my interactions like the way i interact

02:41:45.139 --> 02:41:48.159
with people all of them are for person to person

02:41:48.600 --> 02:41:50.600
Right, right, right. All of them are face -to

02:41:50.600 --> 02:41:54.219
-face. Even though this podcast is reaching fucking

02:41:54.219 --> 02:41:57.680
millions of people, all of my interactions with

02:41:57.680 --> 02:42:00.500
people are face -to -face, and it's a much healthier

02:42:00.500 --> 02:42:01.639
way to communicate with people. Yeah, well, all

02:42:01.639 --> 02:42:04.159
the interactions I have with people face -to

02:42:04.159 --> 02:42:06.639
-face, I might as well say all, because I've

02:42:06.639 --> 02:42:08.540
had, like, I don't know how many interactions

02:42:08.540 --> 02:42:11.979
with strangers in the last five years, but it

02:42:11.979 --> 02:42:19.639
would be at least... It's at least... 75 ,000,

02:42:19.719 --> 02:42:21.840
like, at least. It might be way more than that,

02:42:21.899 --> 02:42:25.079
but it's definitely at least that. There's been

02:42:25.079 --> 02:42:28.040
three that weren't positive. And weirdly enough,

02:42:28.319 --> 02:42:32.340
there's only been three that weren't extremely

02:42:32.340 --> 02:42:35.100
positive. They're so positive that it's almost

02:42:35.100 --> 02:42:37.799
unbearable. Because one of the things that's

02:42:37.799 --> 02:42:41.520
very strange now, I don't know what happens to

02:42:41.520 --> 02:42:44.280
you when you're out on the street. What happens?

02:42:44.440 --> 02:42:46.000
Come with me. Tell me what happens. Let's go

02:42:46.000 --> 02:42:48.520
out tonight. We will. It's fucking wild. Yeah,

02:42:48.559 --> 02:42:50.860
so tell me what happens to you. I get mobbed.

02:42:50.860 --> 02:42:53.940
It's weird. Okay, and how often have you had

02:42:53.940 --> 02:42:56.360
a negative interaction? Very, very, very, very

02:42:56.360 --> 02:42:58.700
rare. Most people are friendly. Even most people,

02:42:58.719 --> 02:43:01.440
if they didn't like me before for whatever reason,

02:43:01.559 --> 02:43:03.760
they say hi, I say hi to them. Yeah. And we're

02:43:03.760 --> 02:43:06.059
usually like, oh, he's just a person. Just a

02:43:06.059 --> 02:43:08.559
person. And I'm a nice person. I'm very nice.

02:43:08.659 --> 02:43:10.600
I go out of my way to be nice. It's something

02:43:10.600 --> 02:43:13.639
I practice. Like I practice martial arts. I practice

02:43:13.639 --> 02:43:15.959
being nice because I think it's valuable. It's

02:43:15.959 --> 02:43:17.579
not just valuable to me. I think it's valuable

02:43:17.579 --> 02:43:20.299
to the people I encounter. I think I have a responsibility

02:43:20.299 --> 02:43:24.420
to the way people react to me. And if I misstep,

02:43:24.559 --> 02:43:27.299
it bothers me a lot. Well, the other thing about

02:43:27.299 --> 02:43:30.219
being in a position like the one you occupy is

02:43:30.219 --> 02:43:33.860
because people know you in a way that you don't

02:43:33.860 --> 02:43:36.299
know them. They approach you. Yes. And the reason

02:43:36.299 --> 02:43:38.520
they approach you is because you're an idol of

02:43:38.520 --> 02:43:41.120
sorts, because otherwise they wouldn't hold you

02:43:41.120 --> 02:43:43.639
in esteem. And that is even the case if they're

02:43:43.639 --> 02:43:46.159
negatively attracted to you in some sense, right?

02:43:46.319 --> 02:43:49.260
And so the problem with those interactions is

02:43:49.260 --> 02:43:53.399
that if you make a mistake, that person will

02:43:53.399 --> 02:43:55.500
never forget it for the rest of their life, and

02:43:55.500 --> 02:43:58.120
they will tell everyone about it. Well, more

02:43:58.120 --> 02:44:00.959
importantly, the way they feel could have been

02:44:00.959 --> 02:44:03.899
avoided. Yes, absolutely. You could have done

02:44:03.899 --> 02:44:06.620
a better job in interacting with them. And then,

02:44:06.680 --> 02:44:08.659
you know, sometimes people come up to you and,

02:44:08.760 --> 02:44:10.860
look, one of the things that I've done when I've

02:44:10.860 --> 02:44:12.879
met famous people that I really admired is I've

02:44:12.879 --> 02:44:15.559
been awkward and clunky. Yeah, yeah. Very likely

02:44:15.559 --> 02:44:17.299
to be the case. And if you're awkward and clunky,

02:44:17.459 --> 02:44:19.200
especially when I was younger, and you catch

02:44:19.200 --> 02:44:22.079
someone who's tired, maybe someone who's jet

02:44:22.079 --> 02:44:24.239
lagged or hungover, you can have a bad interaction.

02:44:24.440 --> 02:44:26.379
You bet. And then you're like, duh, that guy

02:44:26.379 --> 02:44:28.659
was a dick. And then it's fun. It's fun to say

02:44:28.659 --> 02:44:30.540
that guy was a dick. Oh, yeah. It's fun. It's

02:44:30.540 --> 02:44:32.629
exciting. Yeah, well, it's also an expression

02:44:32.629 --> 02:44:35.549
of your profound sense of betrayal. Yes. Because

02:44:35.549 --> 02:44:37.229
you're kind of hoping, when you go up to the

02:44:37.229 --> 02:44:40.309
person, that they're the real thing. Yes. And

02:44:40.309 --> 02:44:42.850
then you get burned, and you're really betrayed

02:44:42.850 --> 02:44:46.250
by that. Like, it's a deep betrayal. I spent

02:44:46.250 --> 02:44:48.930
a lot of time in my clinical practice working

02:44:48.930 --> 02:44:50.809
with people who were socially awkward, and so

02:44:50.809 --> 02:44:56.069
analyzed social awkwardness at the level of detail.

02:44:56.600 --> 02:44:59.500
And one of the things I do when people come up

02:44:59.500 --> 02:45:01.239
to me, because they're often awkward, and they'll

02:45:01.239 --> 02:45:04.239
say things like, oh, you know, I'm fanboying

02:45:04.239 --> 02:45:08.719
or something like that. And I always shake their

02:45:08.719 --> 02:45:11.600
hands, and I always look at them, and I always

02:45:11.600 --> 02:45:14.959
ask them their name. And no matter how awkward

02:45:14.959 --> 02:45:17.760
they are, they can almost always remember their

02:45:17.760 --> 02:45:23.520
name. And so once they say their name and they

02:45:23.520 --> 02:45:27.299
look back at me, 95 % of that awkwardness goes

02:45:27.299 --> 02:45:30.280
away. So I can put them at ease instantly, and

02:45:30.280 --> 02:45:33.280
then we can have a real interaction. Not long,

02:45:33.399 --> 02:45:35.540
because otherwise I would only be doing that.

02:45:36.159 --> 02:45:40.500
And that always goes wonderfully, and it's amazing.

02:45:40.719 --> 02:45:43.579
But I think it was hard on me. It's hard on me

02:45:43.579 --> 02:45:47.159
in a way, because a lot of the people who come

02:45:47.159 --> 02:45:50.649
up to me are emotional. And so... It's weird.

02:45:50.729 --> 02:45:52.770
My life is so weird because wherever I go, it's

02:45:52.770 --> 02:45:54.610
like being surrounded by old friends because

02:45:54.610 --> 02:45:56.469
I'll go down the street and everybody says hi,

02:45:56.770 --> 02:45:58.930
you know, or they'll come up to me in this friendly

02:45:58.930 --> 02:46:01.489
way and open, eh? Like there's no defenses. Right.

02:46:01.610 --> 02:46:04.170
They come up to me. Like they're people I know,

02:46:04.309 --> 02:46:06.530
which is very weird. Yeah, I'm sure it is. Same

02:46:06.530 --> 02:46:08.170
exact thing. Yeah, yeah. And so you really have

02:46:08.170 --> 02:46:10.110
to handle that carefully because they have made

02:46:10.110 --> 02:46:12.329
themselves vulnerable in that moment. And you've

02:46:12.329 --> 02:46:15.129
had an impact on their lives. I'm sure your work

02:46:15.129 --> 02:46:17.129
has shaped a lot of the people that are very

02:46:17.129 --> 02:46:20.149
happy to see you. You've had a personal impact

02:46:20.149 --> 02:46:22.600
on their lives. Yeah, and it's been a positive

02:46:22.600 --> 02:46:25.079
one. And so wouldn't I be the ultimate bloody

02:46:25.079 --> 02:46:27.940
fool to do anything to put any sort of twist

02:46:27.940 --> 02:46:30.459
in that at all? Because wouldn't that be a catastrophe?

02:46:30.799 --> 02:46:33.200
But human interactions are messy, and sometimes

02:46:33.200 --> 02:46:36.559
things go clunky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my

02:46:36.559 --> 02:46:38.700
wife has got good at this and I have a good team

02:46:38.700 --> 02:46:41.479
around me and they help me manage this. And so,

02:46:41.700 --> 02:46:43.899
because we try really hard to make sure that

02:46:43.899 --> 02:46:47.040
all these interactions go as well as they possibly

02:46:47.040 --> 02:46:50.799
can. And that's, it is really wonderful because

02:46:50.799 --> 02:46:53.860
it's really something to be received as a friend

02:46:53.860 --> 02:46:56.120
by strangers everywhere. And you think, this

02:46:56.120 --> 02:46:58.899
is back to this idea of success. You talk about

02:46:58.899 --> 02:47:01.819
these successful power mad psychopath types.

02:47:02.569 --> 02:47:04.149
That isn't what happened when they walked down

02:47:04.149 --> 02:47:06.430
the streets. Like, people are plotting murder,

02:47:06.510 --> 02:47:09.270
or they always are lying to them. Like, everywhere

02:47:09.270 --> 02:47:11.129
they go, it's literally hell. Saddam Hussein

02:47:11.129 --> 02:47:13.229
at the mall. You bet, you bet. Or Stalin, who

02:47:13.229 --> 02:47:17.840
got hyper -paranoid. Everyone's a liar. Everyone's

02:47:17.840 --> 02:47:20.040
a liar. Well, yeah, everyone lies to you. Everyone.

02:47:20.219 --> 02:47:22.079
Right. You have no friends. They are terrified

02:47:22.079 --> 02:47:25.139
of you. Not a single word anyone has ever said

02:47:25.139 --> 02:47:27.979
to you for the last 40 years was honest. He's

02:47:27.979 --> 02:47:30.219
got a bias control group. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and

02:47:30.219 --> 02:47:33.120
he created it. So how's that for hell? What was

02:47:33.120 --> 02:47:35.879
it like for you? Because you have a very weird

02:47:35.879 --> 02:47:39.780
experience in life. You were... It's very weird.

02:47:39.899 --> 02:47:42.200
There's not a lot of people like you where you

02:47:42.200 --> 02:47:44.680
were a university professor and then all of a

02:47:44.680 --> 02:47:46.620
sudden you were famous. And you were famous in

02:47:46.620 --> 02:47:50.659
your late 40s. And really famous. Not just famous,

02:47:50.659 --> 02:47:55.520
but famous as a worldwide... Depending on who

02:47:55.520 --> 02:47:58.440
you ask, either you're a voice of reason and

02:47:58.440 --> 02:48:03.670
rationality and... And, you know, personal responsibility

02:48:03.670 --> 02:48:09.969
or you're a voice of intolerance and bigotry

02:48:09.969 --> 02:48:13.770
and anger and hateful. Sexual oppression. What

02:48:13.770 --> 02:48:17.110
did Michael Dyson call you? Mean, mean, white

02:48:17.110 --> 02:48:20.790
man. Yeah. And a mean, angry white man. Hilarious.

02:48:20.930 --> 02:48:22.950
Yeah. Yeah. You're not mean at all. That's what's

02:48:22.950 --> 02:48:24.729
dumb about that statement. You're not mean at

02:48:24.729 --> 02:48:27.510
all. I am white. Actually, that's a lie, too.

02:48:27.709 --> 02:48:30.649
I'm kind of tan. And he was actually not black.

02:48:30.690 --> 02:48:32.909
He was sort of brown. What the fuck am I? Because

02:48:32.909 --> 02:48:35.170
I'm darker than you. Yeah, yeah. That's ridiculous.

02:48:35.229 --> 02:48:37.389
But neither of us are white. Well, I'm Italian.

02:48:37.670 --> 02:48:40.389
And he was brown, not black. Well, isn't that

02:48:40.389 --> 02:48:42.649
weird? Yeah, it's really weird. The black and

02:48:42.649 --> 02:48:44.530
white thing is so strange because the shades

02:48:44.530 --> 02:48:46.790
are so... Tan and brown. There's such a spectrum

02:48:46.790 --> 02:48:48.649
of shades of people. Unless you're talking to

02:48:48.649 --> 02:48:53.030
someone who is like 100 % African from the darkest

02:48:53.030 --> 02:48:54.930
place where they're not wearing any clothes all

02:48:54.930 --> 02:48:57.129
day and they've developed all that melanin to

02:48:57.129 --> 02:49:00.469
protect themselves from the sun. Even the term

02:49:00.469 --> 02:49:04.270
black is weird. And when you use it for people

02:49:04.270 --> 02:49:07.989
that are literally my color, it becomes very

02:49:07.989 --> 02:49:12.670
strange. Yeah, yeah. This is true. So you were

02:49:12.670 --> 02:49:14.530
asking me what it was like. What is it like to

02:49:14.530 --> 02:49:18.409
be you? What is it like to... And then I know

02:49:18.409 --> 02:49:22.450
you've gone through a lot of shit. And this latest

02:49:22.450 --> 02:49:25.649
thing with getting off of the benzodiazepine,

02:49:25.750 --> 02:49:29.829
that to me was a real shocker. Because first

02:49:29.829 --> 02:49:31.569
of all, I had no idea that you were taking it

02:49:31.569 --> 02:49:33.930
and then to find out that it's that difficult

02:49:33.930 --> 02:49:35.989
to get off of and then to hear from other people

02:49:35.989 --> 02:49:37.430
that have tried to get off of it how difficult

02:49:37.430 --> 02:49:39.950
it is and then to realize how many people around

02:49:39.950 --> 02:49:44.129
me have an issue with that stuff. Xanax is a

02:49:44.129 --> 02:49:47.149
motherfucker. And I didn't know what a motherfucker

02:49:47.149 --> 02:49:50.549
it was until I talked to a friend who is a counselor

02:49:50.549 --> 02:49:54.010
at a drug rehab center. We were saying that that

02:49:54.010 --> 02:49:56.510
is one of the ways that people get locked back

02:49:56.510 --> 02:49:59.450
into drinking and doing drugs is a psychiatrist

02:49:59.450 --> 02:50:03.670
will prescribe Xanax. And sober people who get

02:50:03.670 --> 02:50:05.829
on Xanax all of a sudden start drinking. He said

02:50:05.829 --> 02:50:09.110
it's super common. He said that it's one of the

02:50:09.110 --> 02:50:15.409
most difficult drugs to get off of. I love him

02:50:15.409 --> 02:50:19.110
to death. He's brilliant. He speaks so openly

02:50:19.110 --> 02:50:21.409
and honestly about drugs. And, you know, the

02:50:21.409 --> 02:50:25.110
guy's a professor at Columbia. He said that there's

02:50:25.110 --> 02:50:26.629
two drugs that will kill you when you get off

02:50:26.629 --> 02:50:29.409
of them. He goes, it's alcohol and benzodiazepine.

02:50:29.450 --> 02:50:31.469
Those are the two that if you just quit, you'll

02:50:31.469 --> 02:50:34.819
fucking die. Or you wish you would. Meanwhile,

02:50:34.899 --> 02:50:36.520
they're handing those things out like Tic Tacs.

02:50:36.680 --> 02:50:39.260
Yeah. Well, they were regarded as a safe substitute

02:50:39.260 --> 02:50:41.920
for barbiturates. And you could easily overdose

02:50:41.920 --> 02:50:44.079
on barbiturates, especially with alcohol. Well,

02:50:44.079 --> 02:50:46.219
when did they know? When did they know? When

02:50:46.219 --> 02:50:51.260
was it in the literature, the difficulty of detoxing

02:50:51.260 --> 02:50:55.000
yourself from these? Very recently. Really? Yeah.

02:50:55.399 --> 02:50:58.299
Jesus Christ. And when did they start being handed

02:50:58.299 --> 02:51:04.840
out? 20 years ago. Fuck. More. So what happened?

02:51:04.899 --> 02:51:10.659
People just stayed on them? Often. I have one

02:51:10.659 --> 02:51:13.700
good friend that takes it every day and takes

02:51:13.700 --> 02:51:15.780
it oftentimes with alcohol, which I know you're

02:51:15.780 --> 02:51:17.799
absolutely not supposed to do. There's not a

02:51:17.799 --> 02:51:20.459
damn thing I can do about it. This is a friend

02:51:20.459 --> 02:51:22.399
that I love to death and I just go, I put my

02:51:22.399 --> 02:51:23.920
hands up and I go, there's nothing I can do.

02:51:25.680 --> 02:51:28.340
And he's been on it for more than 10 years. Yeah,

02:51:28.340 --> 02:51:30.059
well, I started taking them because I was ill.

02:51:30.489 --> 02:51:33.469
Yeah. You know, and they helped because I couldn't

02:51:33.469 --> 02:51:36.030
sleep. I couldn't sleep at all. I don't know.

02:51:36.729 --> 02:51:40.049
I don't know. I still really don't know what

02:51:40.049 --> 02:51:42.469
happened to me. You couldn't sleep. And so an

02:51:42.469 --> 02:51:45.430
anti -anxiety medication. Do you think that any,

02:51:45.450 --> 02:51:47.129
this is one of the things that I want to talk

02:51:47.129 --> 02:51:48.569
to you about. This is why I brought up the fame

02:51:48.569 --> 02:51:53.850
thing. How much of the pressure? of being attacked

02:51:53.850 --> 02:51:56.250
by all these different people and having these

02:51:56.250 --> 02:52:00.549
people write these horrible articles about you.

02:52:00.729 --> 02:52:03.329
And I know you read that stuff, which is different

02:52:03.329 --> 02:52:06.770
from me. I don't read stuff about me. And I think

02:52:06.770 --> 02:52:08.889
that's helped me tremendously. And that, like,

02:52:08.930 --> 02:52:12.770
my gauge of how I deal with people is, like I

02:52:12.770 --> 02:52:14.290
said— Tucker Carlson doesn't read things about

02:52:14.290 --> 02:52:17.229
him either. You can tell. You can tell by the

02:52:17.229 --> 02:52:20.370
way he communicates. He seems free. You know,

02:52:20.389 --> 02:52:23.059
there's a burden. that people carry around when

02:52:23.059 --> 02:52:25.219
they read things about themselves. Like Eric

02:52:25.219 --> 02:52:27.840
Weinstein has that burden sometimes. You know,

02:52:27.860 --> 02:52:29.959
when people read... Yeah, well, part of the reason...

02:52:29.959 --> 02:52:33.620
So did I read things about me? Well, yeah, but

02:52:33.620 --> 02:52:37.319
that wasn't what was stressful exactly, although

02:52:37.319 --> 02:52:39.420
it was. But it's a multitude of things. Well,

02:52:39.420 --> 02:52:41.620
what was stressful when I first got... I've had

02:52:41.620 --> 02:52:43.520
a history of depression, and that runs in my

02:52:43.520 --> 02:52:46.059
family, and that probably stems back for me right

02:52:46.059 --> 02:52:49.430
to the time when I was a kid. And I think when

02:52:49.430 --> 02:52:52.389
I really got sick in 2016, it was partly a manifestation

02:52:52.389 --> 02:52:55.629
of that. But at the time, my job was threatened,

02:52:55.829 --> 02:53:00.090
like actually. And my clinical practice was threatened.

02:53:00.969 --> 02:53:04.049
And the Canadian Revenue Agency was after me

02:53:04.049 --> 02:53:06.309
all at the same time. And they were after me

02:53:06.309 --> 02:53:07.969
because of a mistake they had made, which they

02:53:07.969 --> 02:53:10.209
admitted three months later. And the college

02:53:10.209 --> 02:53:12.569
was after me because of a vindictive client who

02:53:12.569 --> 02:53:16.069
came after me with a pack of lies. And basically,

02:53:16.250 --> 02:53:20.649
I... emerged from that unscathed, but that was

02:53:20.649 --> 02:53:22.770
by no means obvious that that was going to be

02:53:22.770 --> 02:53:24.790
the case. I was accused of sexual misconduct.

02:53:24.930 --> 02:53:27.930
And the evidence? When I was dealing with this

02:53:27.930 --> 02:53:30.370
client, I would turn my wedding ring around.

02:53:31.850 --> 02:53:34.510
You'd spin it? Well, I'd play with it. Right.

02:53:34.629 --> 02:53:37.270
And that was sexual misconduct? Yeah, well, to

02:53:37.270 --> 02:53:39.690
her it was a signal of some dark underlying desire

02:53:39.690 --> 02:53:42.680
that I wasn't... That was polluting our therapeutic

02:53:42.680 --> 02:53:44.379
relationship. I've been doing that with you the

02:53:44.379 --> 02:53:47.120
whole conversation. Yeah. I have this silicone

02:53:47.120 --> 02:53:48.799
wedding ring. Yeah, well, I'm going to report.

02:53:48.879 --> 02:53:50.440
I'd report you if you had. Stick my finger in

02:53:50.440 --> 02:53:52.879
there. Yeah, exactly. I do that all the time.

02:53:52.879 --> 02:53:55.200
Yes, well, there you go. It's really bad. And

02:53:55.200 --> 02:53:57.040
if there was a college that governed the behavior.

02:53:57.739 --> 02:53:59.819
like you, I would definitely report. No, don't

02:53:59.819 --> 02:54:01.819
do that. That's terrible. I stretch it out. No,

02:54:01.879 --> 02:54:05.420
that's Freudian to the extreme. Although I don't

02:54:05.420 --> 02:54:07.540
know what turning it means. How could stretching

02:54:07.540 --> 02:54:10.139
a silicone wedding band be Freudian? Well, you're

02:54:10.139 --> 02:54:11.940
putting your finger in the little hole. It's

02:54:11.940 --> 02:54:14.159
rubber. What kind of vaginas are you dealing

02:54:14.159 --> 02:54:16.540
with? Rubber is, you know, that's good. Anyways,

02:54:16.620 --> 02:54:18.780
we don't have to go there. So that was all you

02:54:18.780 --> 02:54:21.639
had done was turn, play with your wedding ring.

02:54:21.879 --> 02:54:24.819
Yeah. And I was really, I really helped her a

02:54:24.819 --> 02:54:27.290
lot. Well, unfortunately, Secondly, when you're

02:54:27.290 --> 02:54:28.930
dealing with people that are extremely troubled,

02:54:29.129 --> 02:54:33.229
oftentimes they look for external reasons why

02:54:33.229 --> 02:54:35.909
they're troubled and they find oppressors. Well,

02:54:35.930 --> 02:54:38.409
she was also angry with me because when all this

02:54:38.409 --> 02:54:40.389
blew up around me, it interfered with my clinical

02:54:40.389 --> 02:54:43.190
practice. And she had come to rely on our weekly

02:54:43.190 --> 02:54:46.889
meetings. And so she was angry about being abandoned.

02:54:47.049 --> 02:54:48.989
And it was really sad because I didn't want to

02:54:48.989 --> 02:54:52.270
abandon my clients. I had to stop my clinical

02:54:52.270 --> 02:54:54.190
practice, which was also very upsetting to me

02:54:54.190 --> 02:54:56.270
because I had like 20 clients and I knew these

02:54:56.270 --> 02:54:58.729
people, man, like they were, I knew these people.

02:54:58.809 --> 02:55:01.090
You know, I'd fold them through thick and thin.

02:55:01.329 --> 02:55:03.610
And then all of a sudden, so many things piled

02:55:03.610 --> 02:55:05.870
up around me that I found when I was in a clinical

02:55:05.870 --> 02:55:09.250
session that I was distracted. So you can't be

02:55:09.250 --> 02:55:12.069
distracted in a clinical session. Right. And

02:55:12.069 --> 02:55:14.950
so anyways, what emerged from that, and it was

02:55:14.950 --> 02:55:16.329
in the middle of the winter and I have seasonal

02:55:16.329 --> 02:55:18.950
affective disorder, I couldn't sleep. And at

02:55:18.950 --> 02:55:21.850
all for quite a long time. And I went to my doctor

02:55:21.850 --> 02:55:24.409
and I said, I can't sleep. And he gave me a sleeping

02:55:24.409 --> 02:55:27.809
medication and an anti -anxiety drug. And I took

02:55:27.809 --> 02:55:29.989
a little bit of the anti -anxiety drug and I

02:55:29.989 --> 02:55:32.209
could sleep. And my life was pretty stressful.

02:55:32.229 --> 02:55:34.149
And I thought, okay, I'm much better. I'm just

02:55:34.149 --> 02:55:36.690
going to leave this be. This is working. I'm

02:55:36.690 --> 02:55:38.250
not going to muck with it because I could barely

02:55:38.250 --> 02:55:42.090
go back to work. And was it a low dose? Yeah,

02:55:42.090 --> 02:55:44.670
yeah. I couldn't even feel it. Really? Yeah,

02:55:44.709 --> 02:55:47.309
it was a low dose. So it alleviated the anxiety,

02:55:47.530 --> 02:55:49.870
but it didn't affect your cognitive performance

02:55:49.870 --> 02:55:52.090
or it didn't affect the way— Well, it didn't

02:55:52.090 --> 02:55:54.909
affect it as much as how sick I was. That really

02:55:54.909 --> 02:55:58.170
affected it. So sick meaning depressed. No, no.

02:55:58.170 --> 02:56:02.110
When you say you're sick. No, no. When it hit,

02:56:02.389 --> 02:56:07.139
if I stood up— My blood pressure was really low.

02:56:07.260 --> 02:56:09.319
If I stood up, I'd faint. I was fainting five

02:56:09.319 --> 02:56:11.299
or six times a day. When are we talking about

02:56:11.299 --> 02:56:14.459
here? 2016. Okay, so this was when all the pressure

02:56:14.459 --> 02:56:17.399
from all these different sources was coming at

02:56:17.399 --> 02:56:20.909
you. Yeah. And that was making you sick. So it

02:56:20.909 --> 02:56:23.510
was physically. Yeah, that was part of it. I

02:56:23.510 --> 02:56:26.569
think what it did was it stressed me enough so

02:56:26.569 --> 02:56:29.409
that I was susceptible, more susceptible to whatever

02:56:29.409 --> 02:56:31.290
was wrong with me in the first place. Because

02:56:31.290 --> 02:56:33.950
I've had a lot of immunological problems. But

02:56:33.950 --> 02:56:37.190
this was also when you got on this diet, which

02:56:37.190 --> 02:56:39.250
has been very beneficial, right? When did you

02:56:39.250 --> 02:56:42.180
get on the diet? Seems to be. Yeah, it was around

02:56:42.180 --> 02:56:46.639
the same time. 2016, 17. And that seemed to be...

02:56:46.639 --> 02:56:49.040
Part of my weird life. Yeah, the cure to a lot

02:56:49.040 --> 02:56:52.020
of your woes was to eliminate processed foods

02:56:52.020 --> 02:56:56.100
and eliminate sugar and bread and pasta and all

02:56:56.100 --> 02:56:57.420
those different things, which... Yeah, I hate

02:56:57.420 --> 02:56:59.860
to talk about it because I don't really recommend

02:56:59.860 --> 02:57:02.239
this to people, you know, because I'm not a dietician

02:57:02.239 --> 02:57:04.739
and I'm not really that interested in it in a

02:57:04.739 --> 02:57:06.500
sense, you know. Yeah, but it's okay. Partly

02:57:06.500 --> 02:57:08.040
because I'm not an authority. But it's your personal

02:57:08.040 --> 02:57:10.379
experience. Yeah, yeah, well... So your personal

02:57:10.379 --> 02:57:11.979
experience in just this all -meat diet. Well,

02:57:11.979 --> 02:57:14.799
my wife has a lot of immune problems, and some

02:57:14.799 --> 02:57:16.760
of them are quite serious. And I have a number

02:57:16.760 --> 02:57:18.420
of immune problems, and some of them are quite

02:57:18.420 --> 02:57:22.079
serious. And our daughter got both of them and

02:57:22.079 --> 02:57:25.979
was really affected by it. And she told her mom,

02:57:26.280 --> 02:57:29.239
this is Michaela, she told her mom, when she

02:57:29.239 --> 02:57:30.959
was starting to come out of it a bit, she said,

02:57:31.059 --> 02:57:33.399
Michaela was only staying awake six hours a day

02:57:33.399 --> 02:57:36.729
in her late teenage years. And the only reason

02:57:36.729 --> 02:57:38.129
she could stay awake was because she was taking

02:57:38.129 --> 02:57:39.469
Ritalin, because otherwise she would have just

02:57:39.469 --> 02:57:43.409
slept literally all the time. Jesus. And she

02:57:43.409 --> 02:57:52.530
said, you know, Mom, I was dying. And slowly,

02:57:52.850 --> 02:57:54.950
you know, which is not a pleasant way to die.

02:57:55.110 --> 02:57:58.250
As a teenager. Yeah, it was terrible. I mean,

02:57:58.250 --> 02:58:00.350
she had to have her ankle replaced as a teenager,

02:58:00.569 --> 02:58:03.360
right? Yeah, and then re -replaced. Three years

02:58:03.360 --> 02:58:05.760
ago. And this is all... No general anesthetic.

02:58:06.159 --> 02:58:08.579
This is all... Because she can't be on general

02:58:08.579 --> 02:58:12.440
anesthetic? She didn't want it to... Yes. Spinal.

02:58:12.479 --> 02:58:14.639
But they still had to do all the hammer and sawing

02:58:14.639 --> 02:58:16.139
while she was... I had my knee done that way.

02:58:16.239 --> 02:58:18.959
Yeah, yeah. I watched it. Uh -huh. Because I

02:58:18.959 --> 02:58:20.760
figured I was only going to have one knee surgery.

02:58:20.979 --> 02:58:24.440
I should see it. That's not true. I had three.

02:58:24.680 --> 02:58:27.020
Oh, yeah. But I thought it was true at the time.

02:58:27.020 --> 02:58:29.459
I thought I was only going to have one knee reconstruction.

02:58:30.420 --> 02:58:32.969
Yeah. So I started getting better in September,

02:58:33.110 --> 02:58:36.670
and I'm not sure why. But let's go back to this.

02:58:36.729 --> 02:58:40.850
So the meat diet, the all -meat diet, you lost

02:58:40.850 --> 02:58:43.709
weight. And that alone, getting rid of excess

02:58:43.709 --> 02:58:46.569
body fat, it oftentimes will help with a lot

02:58:46.569 --> 02:58:49.090
of things. But also, you eliminated all these

02:58:49.090 --> 02:58:54.329
inflammatory foods. Well, I seem to have. recovered

02:58:54.329 --> 02:58:58.129
from all the inflammatory conditions. So I had

02:58:58.129 --> 02:59:00.370
very bad gum disease, which is not good for your

02:59:00.370 --> 02:59:02.549
cardiovascular system. What is gum disease? What

02:59:02.549 --> 02:59:05.209
do you mean? Well, your gums recede and they

02:59:05.209 --> 02:59:08.129
bleed. And it happens when people age. That's

02:59:08.129 --> 02:59:11.370
the theory. And I had three surgeries to control

02:59:11.370 --> 02:59:13.340
it because... you know, your gums will recede

02:59:13.340 --> 02:59:15.159
all the way and then you lose your teeth. It's

02:59:15.159 --> 02:59:17.180
like, it's not good. And plus you're way more

02:59:17.180 --> 02:59:19.280
likely to have heart trouble because of it, because

02:59:19.280 --> 02:59:21.899
it indicates a systemic infection. Yeah. And

02:59:21.899 --> 02:59:24.979
so I had that for like 20 years and that's incurable

02:59:24.979 --> 02:59:28.680
and it's completely gone. Completely gone, meaning

02:59:28.680 --> 02:59:31.020
the gums came back? No, because they never quite

02:59:31.020 --> 02:59:35.219
grow back, but there's no inflammation and no

02:59:35.219 --> 02:59:37.379
bleeding. That's all gone. And no irritation.

02:59:37.879 --> 02:59:40.340
Interesting. So that's interesting. I had psoriasis

02:59:40.340 --> 02:59:43.840
and that's gone. Peripheral uveitis, which caused

02:59:43.840 --> 02:59:46.200
my right eye to be full of floaters because there's

02:59:46.200 --> 02:59:50.860
inflammation on the bottom producing tissue production.

02:59:50.940 --> 02:59:54.239
And that would fill the aqueous liquid in my

02:59:54.239 --> 02:59:56.020
eye. And I could see all these floaters all the

02:59:56.020 --> 02:59:58.000
time. And that's pretty much gone completely.

02:59:58.219 --> 03:00:02.280
And I lost 50 pounds in seven months. And now

03:00:02.280 --> 03:00:04.440
I weigh exactly what I weighed when I was 23.

03:00:04.780 --> 03:00:08.139
And I don't have an ounce of excess body fat.

03:00:10.959 --> 03:00:13.680
What else? The sides of my legs were quite numb

03:00:13.680 --> 03:00:17.139
for like two decades. Sides of your legs were

03:00:17.139 --> 03:00:19.040
numb? Yeah, yeah. Were you having back pain?

03:00:19.340 --> 03:00:22.639
No. No back pain? No. Not at all? No, no back

03:00:22.639 --> 03:00:25.459
pain. But that went away. So now they were hard.

03:00:25.520 --> 03:00:28.920
They got hard and rigid and kind of old because

03:00:28.920 --> 03:00:30.819
you see that in older people that their muscles

03:00:30.819 --> 03:00:32.899
start to rigidify and so forth. And that's all

03:00:32.899 --> 03:00:34.840
gone completely. That's completely flexible again.

03:00:40.879 --> 03:00:43.440
Five years. Five years? Yeah. And it's just meat?

03:00:44.200 --> 03:00:46.260
Yes. Although there were times when I was eating

03:00:46.260 --> 03:00:47.940
some other things, but that didn't seem to work

03:00:47.940 --> 03:00:49.479
very well. What other things were you trying?

03:00:49.799 --> 03:00:54.200
Low -carb vegetables, primarily. Like greens,

03:00:54.379 --> 03:00:56.780
mushrooms? Did you eat mushrooms? No, it was

03:00:56.780 --> 03:01:01.000
mostly greens. Any fruit? Some, yeah. I miss

03:01:01.000 --> 03:01:03.040
fruit a lot. I miss a lot of things, but c 'est

03:01:03.040 --> 03:01:06.379
la vie. So when you introduced fruit, that was

03:01:06.379 --> 03:01:10.850
an issue? When I... I was still really sick in

03:01:10.850 --> 03:01:13.190
August, and I was eating some more things because

03:01:13.190 --> 03:01:15.770
I thought, oh, Christ, I'm so goddamn sick that

03:01:15.770 --> 03:01:21.530
I don't care. I'm going to get something positive

03:01:21.530 --> 03:01:24.069
somewhere. Right. So I started to eat some other

03:01:24.069 --> 03:01:27.549
foods, but my daughter convinced me to stop that

03:01:27.549 --> 03:01:30.729
entirely again, and another number of other things

03:01:30.729 --> 03:01:35.409
happened, and I started to feel better in the

03:01:35.409 --> 03:01:38.329
mornings when I woke up for like two years. It

03:01:38.329 --> 03:01:40.709
took me like four or five hours before I could

03:01:40.709 --> 03:01:46.569
stand up. And this is coming off of benzodiazepine.

03:01:46.889 --> 03:01:49.430
It's hard to say. I don't know what happened

03:01:49.430 --> 03:01:51.569
because, like I said, I was sick when I started

03:01:51.569 --> 03:01:53.649
taking them. So do you think a lot of this is

03:01:53.649 --> 03:02:00.370
pressure? I really don't know, Joe. When you

03:02:00.370 --> 03:02:02.229
get sick and you don't know what it is, you actually

03:02:02.229 --> 03:02:04.370
don't know. But it seems like stress, right?

03:02:05.149 --> 03:02:07.250
Yeah, my mother and my sister were worried when

03:02:07.250 --> 03:02:09.350
I decided to go on tour again. We decided to

03:02:09.350 --> 03:02:12.030
plan this tour back when I was still literally

03:02:12.030 --> 03:02:14.590
so sick I couldn't stand up. And we thought,

03:02:14.629 --> 03:02:16.649
we're going to live like this is going to come

03:02:16.649 --> 03:02:21.049
to an end. So we planned this tour. My mother

03:02:21.049 --> 03:02:22.629
and sister were quite worried about it because

03:02:22.629 --> 03:02:25.030
they thought that the tour, the last tour, was

03:02:25.030 --> 03:02:27.149
part of what stressed me out. But I don't believe

03:02:27.149 --> 03:02:30.950
that. I really liked it. I thought it was a really

03:02:30.950 --> 03:02:36.670
affirming experience. I'm not interested in sitting

03:02:36.670 --> 03:02:39.049
around relaxing. I don't even know how to do

03:02:39.049 --> 03:02:42.049
that, really. Even if I have time off, I don't

03:02:42.049 --> 03:02:45.750
relax. Well, enjoyment and stress, they're often

03:02:45.750 --> 03:02:49.149
the same thing. Not if you're doing what you

03:02:49.149 --> 03:02:52.530
love. I know, it can be too much. Yeah, but what

03:02:52.530 --> 03:02:54.770
do you do instead? What do you do instead? Like,

03:02:54.790 --> 03:02:57.829
relax? What does that mean? I have a... A pontoon

03:02:57.829 --> 03:02:59.690
boat. I go out on my lake. We look at the sunset.

03:02:59.750 --> 03:03:01.590
I love that. I'm not saying you should do anything

03:03:01.590 --> 03:03:03.829
different. I know you are. But I'm saying physiologically,

03:03:03.969 --> 03:03:07.829
enjoyment and stress often come hand to hand.

03:03:08.090 --> 03:03:10.329
Yeah. Because some of the things that you enjoy

03:03:10.329 --> 03:03:12.989
doing are challenging. And challenging things

03:03:12.989 --> 03:03:15.690
create physiological stress. Yeah, they don't.

03:03:15.909 --> 03:03:18.670
They don't? No. In fact, there's a whole literature

03:03:18.670 --> 03:03:20.590
on this. Imagine that you... Challenging things

03:03:20.590 --> 03:03:23.629
don't... Not if they're voluntary. Not if they're

03:03:23.629 --> 03:03:26.989
voluntary. Okay, what if you like to fight? One

03:03:26.989 --> 03:03:28.790
of the things that I noticed when I was young,

03:03:28.850 --> 03:03:31.270
when I was competing, is I was always getting

03:03:31.270 --> 03:03:34.549
sick, even though I loved doing it. I loved fighting,

03:03:34.709 --> 03:03:36.850
but I was always nervous. Yeah, but you're taking

03:03:36.850 --> 03:03:40.790
a fair bit of physical. No? No, that's not what

03:03:40.790 --> 03:03:43.870
it was. It was stress. Look, an excess of anything

03:03:43.870 --> 03:03:46.969
can push you beyond your limits. I'm just saying

03:03:46.969 --> 03:03:50.069
that there's a tax. There's a thing that you're

03:03:50.069 --> 03:03:52.430
doing, right, when you're interacting with thousands

03:03:52.430 --> 03:03:55.129
and thousands of people. You're expressing controversial

03:03:55.129 --> 03:03:57.670
viewpoints that are often criticized. You're

03:03:57.670 --> 03:03:59.629
reading articles that are written about you.

03:03:59.670 --> 03:04:02.350
There's a stress that comes with doing this thing

03:04:02.350 --> 03:04:07.389
that you love that's undeniable. Yes. And I've

03:04:07.389 --> 03:04:10.229
had to parse that apart carefully to decide what

03:04:10.229 --> 03:04:12.670
was particularly stressful that I could let go

03:04:12.670 --> 03:04:16.020
of and how and maintain the rest of it. And hopefully

03:04:16.020 --> 03:04:18.120
Tammy's helped me with that, or my whole family

03:04:18.120 --> 03:04:19.819
and my friends, everybody around me has helped

03:04:19.819 --> 03:04:21.819
me with that a lot, a tremendous amount. And

03:04:21.819 --> 03:04:23.920
hopefully I'm more and more able to separate

03:04:23.920 --> 03:04:26.719
the wheat from the chaff. And I do more artistic

03:04:26.719 --> 03:04:29.219
things now than I had been for a long time. Like

03:04:29.219 --> 03:04:31.219
what? Oh, I've been writing a bunch of music.

03:04:31.239 --> 03:04:34.360
We recorded a bunch of music. Five songs. Really?

03:04:34.520 --> 03:04:37.180
Yeah, yeah. Do you sing? No, I do character voices.

03:04:37.719 --> 03:04:39.000
Character voices? I wouldn't call it singing.

03:04:39.299 --> 03:04:41.420
What does that mean? Yeah. Want to play some

03:04:41.420 --> 03:04:44.940
of it? Well, the music. The music is very dramatic.

03:04:45.280 --> 03:04:46.760
Do you want to send it to Jamie and he'll play

03:04:46.760 --> 03:04:51.100
it? The music is very dramatic. I could give

03:04:51.100 --> 03:04:54.739
you a taste of it. We need a taste. Okay, okay,

03:04:54.819 --> 03:04:56.739
I'll give you a taste. So I wrote these books.

03:04:56.739 --> 03:04:58.020
I feel like I should get drunk before I do this.

03:04:58.020 --> 03:05:00.020
I wrote these books called An ABC of Childhood

03:05:00.020 --> 03:05:03.979
Tragedy. Oh, boy. And they're really dark poems.

03:05:04.360 --> 03:05:07.760
For children? No, definitely not. Oh, okay. Absolutely,

03:05:07.840 --> 03:05:12.690
100%, decidedly. thoroughly, comprehensively,

03:05:12.690 --> 03:05:17.649
not for children. Right. They're very dark. And

03:05:17.649 --> 03:05:21.750
I had my illustrator for Beyond Order, who I

03:05:21.750 --> 03:05:24.670
really like, Juliet Fogra, Julia Fogra, Juliet,

03:05:24.969 --> 03:05:30.170
who's an Eastern European, got a dark side, brilliant,

03:05:30.389 --> 03:05:33.209
brilliant artist. And when I was really sick

03:05:33.209 --> 03:05:35.469
in January and trying to figure out what I could

03:05:35.469 --> 03:05:38.149
do, Tammy said, you remember those poems you

03:05:38.149 --> 03:05:40.040
wrote? And they're the sort of poems you read.

03:05:40.100 --> 03:05:42.219
They're like four stanzas long. You read them

03:05:42.219 --> 03:05:43.860
and you laugh and then you hate yourself for

03:05:43.860 --> 03:05:46.440
laughing. And I wrote them when I was in the

03:05:46.440 --> 03:05:48.420
midst of pretty intense clinical experiences.

03:05:49.180 --> 03:05:54.420
I'm not sure exactly why. To blow off some steam.

03:05:55.959 --> 03:05:57.760
But there was more to it than that. And I don't

03:05:57.760 --> 03:05:59.600
know all of what it is. I'm kind of working at

03:05:59.600 --> 03:06:03.739
the juncture between black comedy and beauty.

03:06:04.379 --> 03:06:07.840
It's a weird space. And Yulia's drawings are

03:06:07.840 --> 03:06:11.040
unbelievably beautiful and deep. She's so good

03:06:11.040 --> 03:06:14.559
at this. And so I sent her these terrible poems

03:06:14.559 --> 03:06:18.600
I wrote that are comical and horrible. And I

03:06:18.600 --> 03:06:22.780
said, Tammy thought it would be good for me to,

03:06:22.879 --> 03:06:24.379
because I thought about getting them illustrated.

03:06:25.559 --> 03:06:26.879
Do you want to take a look at these and see if

03:06:26.879 --> 03:06:28.299
you're interested? And then she sent me back

03:06:28.299 --> 03:06:31.239
these stunningly beautiful illustrations. And

03:06:31.239 --> 03:06:33.459
then she produced one every three days for like

03:06:33.459 --> 03:06:37.639
three months. And I'll show you them. And maybe

03:06:37.639 --> 03:06:40.659
you can post one if you want. And then we thought,

03:06:40.760 --> 03:06:43.379
well, that's fun. That was fun and very worthwhile.

03:06:43.840 --> 03:06:45.840
And then, like, they're all these Depression

03:06:45.840 --> 03:06:47.959
-era children. And they're all beautiful, beautiful

03:06:47.959 --> 03:06:52.120
children. And they're all... Her drawings are

03:06:52.120 --> 03:06:55.500
full of pathos and sorrow for their suffering.

03:06:55.899 --> 03:06:58.600
So they're very deep and dark and beautiful.

03:06:58.739 --> 03:07:01.399
All of that at once with these terrible black

03:07:01.399 --> 03:07:04.440
comedy poems. And then we thought, well, it'd

03:07:04.440 --> 03:07:07.600
be fun to figure out how to... market this, which

03:07:07.600 --> 03:07:09.399
is just communication. Well, why don't we write

03:07:09.399 --> 03:07:11.479
some music? And so it turns out I can write verse.

03:07:11.500 --> 03:07:13.079
I wrote a whole screenplay, which we've also

03:07:13.079 --> 03:07:14.979
recorded three songs for it called The Water

03:07:14.979 --> 03:07:17.440
of Life, which is a fairy tale. And I want to

03:07:17.440 --> 03:07:19.540
make a musical out of it. And so that's quite

03:07:19.540 --> 03:07:21.440
fun. And so we've written and recorded three

03:07:21.440 --> 03:07:23.700
songs for it already. So this is what you were

03:07:23.700 --> 03:07:26.620
doing when you were recovering from this? Yeah,

03:07:26.639 --> 03:07:28.739
yeah, yeah. It was great because it really worked

03:07:28.739 --> 03:07:30.840
out nicely because when I was so ill, I had something

03:07:30.840 --> 03:07:32.600
to look forward to because I knew Yulia was going

03:07:32.600 --> 03:07:35.260
to send me a beautiful image. And I didn't know

03:07:35.260 --> 03:07:37.280
what it was going to be. And then we assembled

03:07:37.280 --> 03:07:39.600
it into a book. And then I started working with

03:07:39.600 --> 03:07:42.299
this musician, Marshall Tully, who I really like

03:07:42.299 --> 03:07:44.959
and who's a good arranger. He can play all sorts

03:07:44.959 --> 03:07:46.659
of instruments. And he's got a great musical

03:07:46.659 --> 03:07:50.799
sense. And so we started working on music together.

03:07:51.180 --> 03:07:53.840
So he'd write the music. And I wrote some of

03:07:53.840 --> 03:07:55.659
it. But he wrote most of it. And he played almost

03:07:55.659 --> 03:07:58.760
all of it. And we had a band involved for one

03:07:58.760 --> 03:08:01.340
part. And we'll do that some more. And so he'd

03:08:01.340 --> 03:08:02.819
write the music. And then I'd write the lyrics.

03:08:03.360 --> 03:08:07.559
And then we'd record it. I'd send the music and

03:08:07.559 --> 03:08:09.440
lyrics to Yulia, and she'd generate a bunch of

03:08:09.440 --> 03:08:11.159
images. And so then we made a bunch of videos

03:08:11.159 --> 03:08:13.680
out of it, set to music, which we'll release

03:08:13.680 --> 03:08:19.760
on YouTube in fall of this year. And that was

03:08:19.760 --> 03:08:22.180
part of marketing for the book, but then it turned

03:08:22.180 --> 03:08:24.520
into its own complete enterprise. And so we're

03:08:24.520 --> 03:08:26.120
going to put out an album of all these songs.

03:08:28.030 --> 03:08:30.809
I love that. It's so fun. So that helped you

03:08:30.809 --> 03:08:33.370
just having some sort of a creative expression.

03:08:33.370 --> 03:08:34.950
Oh, yeah. It helped you. Yeah, it helped a lot.

03:08:34.950 --> 03:08:37.549
How long did it take you to recover from the

03:08:37.549 --> 03:08:46.969
benzos? Well, when I finally, two years. And

03:08:46.969 --> 03:08:49.430
I haven't fully recovered. You haven't fully

03:08:49.430 --> 03:08:51.190
recovered? But also, I was also sick. No, my

03:08:51.190 --> 03:08:55.399
left hand is quite numb. and was way more numb.

03:08:55.620 --> 03:08:58.399
Both my hands, both hands and my feet were like

03:08:58.399 --> 03:09:03.000
completely numb. And I was in like excruciating

03:09:03.000 --> 03:09:07.940
pain for two years, like pain at levels that

03:09:07.940 --> 03:09:10.379
I didn't even know was possible. All the time

03:09:10.379 --> 03:09:13.520
or on occasion? No, this is one of the things

03:09:13.520 --> 03:09:16.280
that was terrible about it is that it was really,

03:09:16.440 --> 03:09:19.600
really bad in the morning. And did it start right

03:09:19.600 --> 03:09:22.559
after you got off of the Xanax? No, but it got

03:09:22.559 --> 03:09:27.309
way worse. So it just started showing up eventually.

03:09:27.989 --> 03:09:31.409
Yeah. It started to get worse about the same

03:09:31.409 --> 03:09:33.329
time that Tammy went into the hospital because

03:09:33.329 --> 03:09:37.129
she was fighting her way through catastrophic

03:09:37.129 --> 03:09:39.909
cancer at the same time when this started to

03:09:39.909 --> 03:09:43.469
happen. So this was additional stress. Yes. And

03:09:43.469 --> 03:09:45.870
that heightened everything. Well, it certainly

03:09:45.870 --> 03:09:49.389
didn't help. Right. I think it made me, again,

03:09:49.450 --> 03:09:51.290
it made me more susceptible to something that

03:09:51.290 --> 03:09:55.010
was already happening. So whatever this illness

03:09:55.010 --> 03:09:58.270
has that's plagued my family, my father, my grandfather,

03:09:58.530 --> 03:10:01.829
multiple cousins, and a lot of immunological

03:10:01.829 --> 03:10:05.170
problems on my mother's side too. I have a cousin

03:10:05.170 --> 03:10:07.510
whose daughter died of immunological problems,

03:10:07.770 --> 03:10:10.229
the same ones that Michaela had. And this is

03:10:10.229 --> 03:10:12.610
all mitigated somehow or another by this only

03:10:12.610 --> 03:10:14.690
eating meat diet? I don't know. It certainly

03:10:14.690 --> 03:10:16.930
is for Michaela. And for you as well? Well, I

03:10:16.930 --> 03:10:20.270
don't know that for sure. I know what the diet

03:10:20.270 --> 03:10:24.020
has done. Explain this. You were telling me about

03:10:24.020 --> 03:10:26.180
this study that was recently done. Oh, yeah,

03:10:26.280 --> 03:10:28.579
yeah. Well, Michaela was invited to Oxford to

03:10:28.579 --> 03:10:31.219
debate, and that was fun because I was invited

03:10:31.219 --> 03:10:33.000
about the same time, so we got to go there and

03:10:33.000 --> 03:10:35.180
speak on the same night, which was really cool,

03:10:35.319 --> 03:10:37.180
you know, because how unlikely is that, right?

03:10:37.399 --> 03:10:39.540
Does she have a background in nutrition? No.

03:10:40.479 --> 03:10:44.360
Well, yes, but... Yes, because she's done her

03:10:44.360 --> 03:10:47.059
research, but not technically, no. No, she had

03:10:47.059 --> 03:10:50.309
a background in trying not to die. And trying

03:10:50.309 --> 03:10:52.409
not to be in agony and trying not to have all

03:10:52.409 --> 03:10:54.729
her bones deteriorate because she had 38 of them.

03:10:54.829 --> 03:10:56.030
But I was confused as to why they would ask her

03:10:56.030 --> 03:11:00.809
to go to Oxford to debate. The topic was we should

03:11:00.809 --> 03:11:04.290
move beyond meat. Right, but why her? Well, because

03:11:04.290 --> 03:11:07.829
she's become a well -known advocate, I suppose,

03:11:07.889 --> 03:11:11.350
of a carnivorous diet as an investigative tool

03:11:11.350 --> 03:11:16.409
for chronic, untreatable disease. That's a good

03:11:16.409 --> 03:11:18.950
way. So imagine, here's the rationale, Joe. Imagine

03:11:18.950 --> 03:11:20.790
there's something really wrong with you, like

03:11:20.790 --> 03:11:26.290
really wrong, and nothing's helping. Okay, what

03:11:26.290 --> 03:11:30.129
might be causing it? Well, something complex

03:11:30.129 --> 03:11:33.569
you don't understand. Okay, what complex things

03:11:33.569 --> 03:11:36.430
are you doing? You're eating a lot of different

03:11:36.430 --> 03:11:40.139
things. Okay, so how about... Elimination diets

03:11:40.139 --> 03:11:41.899
do this. How about you simplify it? So Michaela

03:11:41.899 --> 03:11:43.440
tried a bunch of elimination diets, but they

03:11:43.440 --> 03:11:45.979
were dopey. It's like, why eliminate this and

03:11:45.979 --> 03:11:48.479
not this? There was no rationale. And so she

03:11:48.479 --> 03:11:51.299
wanted to find out, how much can I eliminate

03:11:51.299 --> 03:11:54.399
and still survive? How can I bring it down to

03:11:54.399 --> 03:11:57.239
the simplest possible thing? And it turns out

03:11:57.239 --> 03:12:01.579
that you can pretty much live on meat, weirdly

03:12:01.579 --> 03:12:05.090
enough. Not just live, but thrive. Well, you

03:12:05.090 --> 03:12:06.809
know, people debate about that, but certainly

03:12:06.809 --> 03:12:09.049
some people seem to thrive compared to how they

03:12:09.049 --> 03:12:13.129
were. What about supplements? No. No. No vitamins?

03:12:13.430 --> 03:12:17.030
No. Does that seem ideal? Because I would feel

03:12:17.030 --> 03:12:17.610
like you don't have to do that. Like I said,

03:12:17.670 --> 03:12:20.690
I'm not promoting this. You don't have to just

03:12:20.690 --> 03:12:23.309
eat the meat. You can eat meat and get all of

03:12:23.309 --> 03:12:25.989
your micronutrients and all of your minerals

03:12:25.989 --> 03:12:28.809
and vitamins. Seems like you don't need them.

03:12:29.450 --> 03:12:31.829
It isn't even obvious you need vitamin C. Now

03:12:31.829 --> 03:12:34.510
I'm going to get killed for that. Apparently,

03:12:34.510 --> 03:12:37.389
there's some indication that you only require

03:12:37.389 --> 03:12:40.729
vitamin C if you eat carbohydrates. Really? Well,

03:12:41.010 --> 03:12:44.350
you know, don't take anything I'm saying as gospel,

03:12:44.469 --> 03:12:46.610
because what the hell do I know? But does she

03:12:46.610 --> 03:12:48.770
eat organ meat? No. Because that's the healthiest

03:12:48.770 --> 03:12:51.450
of all meats. No, she eats lamb. That's it? Yes.

03:12:52.229 --> 03:12:58.420
Just lamb? No. Salt. But lamb and salt. Lamb

03:12:58.420 --> 03:13:03.860
and salt. Not beef anymore? No. Okay. No. Tammy

03:13:03.860 --> 03:13:08.760
eats only lamb too. Wow. Why lamb? It's more

03:13:08.760 --> 03:13:13.899
of a game meat. They both seem to manifest fewer

03:13:13.899 --> 03:13:16.020
immunological symptoms if they only eat lamb.

03:13:16.440 --> 03:13:21.159
Hmm. Yeah. Tammy has some serious immunological

03:13:21.159 --> 03:13:24.479
problems as well. But they're very well controlled.

03:13:25.020 --> 03:13:29.399
Now, how did the Oxford debate go? Oh, God, I

03:13:29.399 --> 03:13:32.420
hope they release it soon. Yeah? Oh, she did

03:13:32.420 --> 03:13:35.760
very well, but she wasn't the star. She did very

03:13:35.760 --> 03:13:38.040
well. And, oh, yeah, just before she debated,

03:13:38.219 --> 03:13:40.719
a study was released that was published by Harvard

03:13:40.719 --> 03:13:42.780
epidemiologists. I think they were epidemiologists.

03:13:43.079 --> 03:13:46.399
They did a retrospective analysis of 2 ,400 people

03:13:46.399 --> 03:13:48.120
who were on the carnivore diet for six months.

03:13:50.120 --> 03:13:52.219
It was the only scientific paper I've ever read.

03:13:52.239 --> 03:13:53.840
It was published by Oxford University Press,

03:13:53.899 --> 03:13:55.639
by the way. It's in a high -quality medical journal.

03:13:55.920 --> 03:13:58.040
The study's no joke. And you might argue about

03:13:58.040 --> 03:14:00.420
the validity of retrospective self -report, but

03:14:00.420 --> 03:14:02.620
if it's carefully done, it can be valid. And

03:14:02.620 --> 03:14:05.500
it's a good initial foray into investigation.

03:14:06.059 --> 03:14:07.920
It's not a definitive study, because you'd need

03:14:07.920 --> 03:14:11.559
at least a randomized trial. That's harder. But

03:14:11.559 --> 03:14:14.540
anyways, it was the only scientific paper I ever

03:14:14.540 --> 03:14:16.760
read where the surprise of the authors was evident

03:14:16.760 --> 03:14:19.719
in the manner in which they wrote. Because what

03:14:19.719 --> 03:14:23.299
they showed was that radical weight loss first.

03:14:24.079 --> 03:14:27.239
So that was pretty much experienced by all the

03:14:27.239 --> 03:14:30.639
participants. 90 % reduction in all self -reported

03:14:30.639 --> 03:14:36.120
disease symptoms. All. All. Enhanced well -being

03:14:36.120 --> 03:14:45.020
and decrease in suffering. And... Yeah, that

03:14:45.020 --> 03:14:47.909
pretty much covered the territory. So she introduced

03:14:47.909 --> 03:14:50.989
this during the debate? Yes. So when did it came

03:14:50.989 --> 03:14:53.329
out? The week of the debate? It came out two

03:14:53.329 --> 03:14:56.209
days. We encountered it two days before the debate,

03:14:56.250 --> 03:14:57.989
but it had been published very recently, like

03:14:57.989 --> 03:14:59.870
within the last three weeks or something like

03:14:59.870 --> 03:15:01.309
that. Did she have time to go through the entire

03:15:01.309 --> 03:15:05.510
study and get all the relevant information? Yes.

03:15:05.590 --> 03:15:07.850
Time enough for her section of the debate. She

03:15:07.850 --> 03:15:10.149
only spoke for about... 10, 12 minutes. There

03:15:10.149 --> 03:15:12.629
were three people on her side. But I really am

03:15:12.629 --> 03:15:15.649
hoping that this debate is released soon because

03:15:15.649 --> 03:15:18.930
one of the people on the other side who was rallying

03:15:18.930 --> 03:15:24.090
against meat delivered the most preposterously,

03:15:24.090 --> 03:15:29.329
unsaturizable, politically correct rant that

03:15:29.329 --> 03:15:34.549
I'd ever seen anyone deliver anywhere. by a factor

03:15:34.549 --> 03:15:37.649
of about five. She just about made me convulse.

03:15:37.909 --> 03:15:39.930
And part of it was sympathy, you know, because

03:15:39.930 --> 03:15:45.850
it was so over the top. It was so utterly miraculous

03:15:45.850 --> 03:15:48.549
that anyone could, and two of her compatriots

03:15:48.549 --> 03:15:50.049
were sitting in the audience, and she said things

03:15:50.049 --> 03:15:53.129
like, every hamburger is served with a side order

03:15:53.129 --> 03:15:55.850
of misogyny, which is a really good line. You

03:15:55.850 --> 03:15:57.629
know they crafted that line. It's a pretty good

03:15:57.629 --> 03:16:01.559
joke. Why misogyny? Oh, because she associated

03:16:01.559 --> 03:16:05.040
the oppression of women with the oppression of

03:16:05.040 --> 03:16:07.280
farm animals, which is like, it's a dangerous

03:16:07.280 --> 03:16:10.959
territory to wander into, that analogy. And she

03:16:10.959 --> 03:16:15.379
said that she compared the husbandry of animals

03:16:15.379 --> 03:16:18.559
to slavery, which is also like a place that you

03:16:18.559 --> 03:16:21.239
wander into with real care when you choose your

03:16:21.239 --> 03:16:23.899
metaphors. And she said the reason we're bombarded

03:16:23.899 --> 03:16:27.260
with images of sexy chickens and sexy cows is

03:16:27.260 --> 03:16:30.030
because we feminize our... farm animals before

03:16:30.030 --> 03:16:33.729
devouring them. Hold, please. Are we bombarded

03:16:33.729 --> 03:16:38.170
with images of sexy chickens? Oh, sexy chickens

03:16:38.170 --> 03:16:41.290
and pigs. It wasn't cows. Well, cows, you know

03:16:41.290 --> 03:16:43.229
how sexy they are, so that's forgivable. Miss

03:16:43.229 --> 03:16:46.430
Piggy? She's our only one. Is that bombarded?

03:16:46.430 --> 03:16:49.229
Is this woman on a Miss Piggy rampage? Sexy chickens.

03:16:49.389 --> 03:16:53.030
What fucking sexy chickens are there? Hey, man,

03:16:53.129 --> 03:16:57.399
you tell me. That sounds crazy. Oh, you wait.

03:16:57.500 --> 03:16:59.879
I'm praying they'll release it. This will go

03:16:59.879 --> 03:17:02.540
viral. This is like Kathy Newman on steroids.

03:17:02.739 --> 03:17:05.299
Like, I mean it. It was something, man. I was

03:17:05.299 --> 03:17:08.860
sweating. I was really, really, really. It was

03:17:08.860 --> 03:17:11.739
like being hit. And then there were two people

03:17:11.739 --> 03:17:13.340
who helped craft her speech and they were sitting

03:17:13.340 --> 03:17:15.799
in the audience. And while she was on this unbelievable

03:17:15.799 --> 03:17:19.450
rant. It was just jaw -droppingly miraculous.

03:17:20.090 --> 03:17:23.190
And they kept yelling genocide. It's like they're

03:17:23.190 --> 03:17:24.649
sitting in the audience and she'd make a point

03:17:24.649 --> 03:17:27.790
about meat and how appalling the human race was,

03:17:27.969 --> 03:17:29.790
especially the men, especially the white men,

03:17:29.930 --> 03:17:37.489
the oppressive, patriarchal, racist, white, supremacist.

03:17:37.569 --> 03:17:39.809
Meat is a white supremacist exercise, by the

03:17:39.809 --> 03:17:42.889
way. Where was she from? Was she English? Yes,

03:17:42.930 --> 03:17:44.930
yes. She'd written a book on this, and that's

03:17:44.930 --> 03:17:47.229
why they invited her. But then I get the English

03:17:47.229 --> 03:17:49.889
accent with it, too. Yeah, yeah. And then her

03:17:49.889 --> 03:17:52.610
compatriots were randomly yelling, genocide.

03:17:52.770 --> 03:17:55.530
It's like, genocide, genocide. It's like, what?

03:17:56.049 --> 03:17:59.250
Yes, we think that's bad. We think that's bad.

03:17:59.350 --> 03:18:00.950
We've already established that. But that was

03:18:00.950 --> 03:18:03.610
so, it was like theater of the absurd. It was

03:18:03.610 --> 03:18:07.110
so, it was one, it'll be a, if they release it,

03:18:07.170 --> 03:18:11.139
I think it will. It'll be a cultural moment because

03:18:11.139 --> 03:18:13.200
it was the point, at least it was the point in

03:18:13.200 --> 03:18:15.819
my life, where the politically correct argument

03:18:15.819 --> 03:18:19.500
reached an apogee that cannot be exceeded. It

03:18:19.500 --> 03:18:22.120
was like that is as absurd as it can possibly

03:18:22.120 --> 03:18:26.459
get in every possible way in 10 minutes. It was

03:18:26.459 --> 03:18:32.649
theater of the surreal. Everyone, well, the audience

03:18:32.649 --> 03:18:34.549
was full of vegans, and so they were on the side

03:18:34.549 --> 03:18:36.649
of the anti -meat people, and so they kind of

03:18:36.649 --> 03:18:38.590
gave her a pass, although a lot of people walked

03:18:38.590 --> 03:18:41.010
out during her, whatever it was she was doing.

03:18:41.090 --> 03:18:43.729
But I did feel bad for her while I was convulsing,

03:18:43.729 --> 03:18:47.639
because... I really did because I thought, oh

03:18:47.639 --> 03:18:50.680
my God, you're so crazy. You're so utterly crazy.

03:18:50.920 --> 03:18:53.579
And there's no way that you can bring that set

03:18:53.579 --> 03:18:56.420
of presuppositions to bear in a real human relationship

03:18:56.420 --> 03:18:58.940
and have it go anything but terribly wrong. And

03:18:58.940 --> 03:19:00.780
so that means that you're completely isolated

03:19:00.780 --> 03:19:05.540
and all your so -called friends are never offering

03:19:05.540 --> 03:19:08.040
you any corrective feedback whatsoever, right?

03:19:08.100 --> 03:19:10.840
They're just feeding into this terrible ideological

03:19:10.840 --> 03:19:14.510
mess you've wandered into. And so it was painful

03:19:14.510 --> 03:19:16.329
at the same time, which is partly why it was

03:19:16.329 --> 03:19:20.250
sweating. But it was, yeah, it was something,

03:19:20.370 --> 03:19:22.090
man. I think I discovered the book. Yeah, that's

03:19:22.090 --> 03:19:25.270
it. That's it. The pornography of meat. Yeah,

03:19:25.290 --> 03:19:26.909
well, there you got your dancing hamburger there.

03:19:27.049 --> 03:19:30.649
Eat me. Oh, my God. Late night menu, Friday and

03:19:30.649 --> 03:19:34.889
Saturday. Oh, my God. But I defy you. I defy

03:19:34.889 --> 03:19:38.479
you to find a depiction of a sexy chicken. Yeah,

03:19:38.479 --> 03:19:41.600
where are the sexy chickens at? There, the sexual

03:19:41.600 --> 03:19:44.159
politics of meat. Oh, so this is what she writes.

03:19:44.280 --> 03:19:49.180
So it's like all sex and meat. Yeah. Living amongst

03:19:49.180 --> 03:19:52.159
meat eaters. And look at the woman in this sort

03:19:52.159 --> 03:19:56.540
of sexy pose here. Yeah, but she's surrounded

03:19:56.540 --> 03:19:59.360
by plants, Joe, and so that makes it okay, apparently.

03:19:59.639 --> 03:20:03.420
Okay. Yeah, that was her, all right. Yeah, it

03:20:03.420 --> 03:20:07.860
was something, man. I tell you, I'm not exaggerating

03:20:07.860 --> 03:20:11.020
this. I've never heard a speech like that in

03:20:11.020 --> 03:20:15.719
my life. In its own way, it was like an ultimate

03:20:15.719 --> 03:20:18.920
work of art. It was just something beyond comprehension.

03:20:19.899 --> 03:20:22.739
Yeah. Every trope, every politically correct

03:20:22.739 --> 03:20:25.360
trope you could possibly imagine was magnified

03:20:25.360 --> 03:20:28.260
beyond its normal range of reference and then

03:20:28.260 --> 03:20:31.700
applied in this utterly scattershot. It was like

03:20:31.700 --> 03:20:36.600
she brought every ideological tool in the playbook

03:20:36.600 --> 03:20:40.940
randomly to this issue. Imagine if it's all performance

03:20:40.940 --> 03:20:43.159
art. At the end of the day, she's like, I was

03:20:43.159 --> 03:20:45.620
just fucking around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,

03:20:45.639 --> 03:20:47.159
then it would be funny and remarkable. Well,

03:20:47.159 --> 03:20:49.579
that's like Titania McGrath, right? Yes. But

03:20:49.579 --> 03:20:52.479
Titania McGrath couldn't have held a candle to

03:20:52.479 --> 03:20:55.799
her. She would have demolished. No, no, no, no.

03:20:56.139 --> 03:20:59.090
No, they weren't even in the same league. No,

03:20:59.090 --> 03:21:02.209
Titania at least has a facade of reasonableness.

03:21:02.270 --> 03:21:04.270
Have you met Andrew? Yes. Yeah, he's great too.

03:21:04.370 --> 03:21:06.770
He is. I really like him. I love him. Yeah, yeah.

03:21:06.809 --> 03:21:08.629
He's very, very funny. He's brilliant. And very,

03:21:08.690 --> 03:21:10.930
very smart. He's fucking so good. And multi -talented.

03:21:10.930 --> 03:21:12.969
That character is so good. It is. It is. But

03:21:12.969 --> 03:21:18.659
she's obsolete. She's obsolete. Yeah. So how

03:21:18.659 --> 03:21:22.399
did the vegans react to the pro -carnivore position?

03:21:22.399 --> 03:21:24.500
Oh, it was very civil. It was very civil, although

03:21:24.500 --> 03:21:27.260
it was stacked to some degree because a couple

03:21:27.260 --> 03:21:32.420
of the people on Michaela's side damned the freedom

03:21:32.420 --> 03:21:35.620
to eat meat with faint praise. And I have my

03:21:35.620 --> 03:21:37.959
suspicions that it was staged that way. How so?

03:21:38.159 --> 03:21:42.319
Well, they basically said every reasonable person

03:21:42.319 --> 03:21:45.889
thinks that eating meat is bad. And immoral,

03:21:45.969 --> 03:21:49.090
but we should still let people do it. On her

03:21:49.090 --> 03:21:52.129
side? Yeah. Why would they say that? Why would

03:21:52.129 --> 03:21:55.049
they say it's bad and immoral? What about having

03:21:55.049 --> 03:21:58.510
the argument that monocrop agriculture is immoral?

03:21:58.530 --> 03:22:01.950
Yeah, well, that was part of Michaela's argument.

03:22:02.090 --> 03:22:04.110
That's responsible for so much death. I mean,

03:22:04.110 --> 03:22:07.649
it's just not natural at all in order to cultivate.

03:22:07.649 --> 03:22:10.469
Yeah, and Nick talked about sustainable agriculture.

03:22:12.719 --> 03:22:16.600
And made that case as well, that our relationship

03:22:16.600 --> 03:22:19.899
with animals that we devour can be made as humane

03:22:19.899 --> 03:22:23.500
as possible, and that's acceptable and perhaps

03:22:23.500 --> 03:22:25.479
even desirable in a broader moral framework.

03:22:25.600 --> 03:22:28.319
And a woman, I wish I could remember her name,

03:22:28.420 --> 03:22:31.120
autistic professor at the University of Chicago

03:22:31.120 --> 03:22:33.360
who revolutionized the treatment of animals in

03:22:33.360 --> 03:22:38.760
the slaughterhouse industry, she made the case

03:22:38.760 --> 03:22:41.909
that the animals that we eat... Don't suffer

03:22:41.909 --> 03:22:45.530
a humane death in nature. They're all torn apart

03:22:45.530 --> 03:22:49.629
by carnivores. All of them. None of them died

03:22:49.629 --> 03:22:53.909
of old age. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And so I've been

03:22:53.909 --> 03:22:55.809
working on these books. I have some other projects,

03:22:55.889 --> 03:22:59.309
too, that I'm working on. I have a new book that

03:22:59.309 --> 03:23:01.110
I'm working on called We Who Wrestle With God.

03:23:01.610 --> 03:23:04.229
And I outlined some of the ideas we talked about

03:23:04.229 --> 03:23:06.209
today. And I'm interested in the weaponization

03:23:06.209 --> 03:23:09.389
of guilt and how to deal with that. Why it's

03:23:09.389 --> 03:23:11.870
possible. and how to protect yourself against

03:23:11.870 --> 03:23:14.610
it, and what we should do in face of the fact

03:23:14.610 --> 03:23:17.309
that we walk on soil soaked with blood. You know,

03:23:17.309 --> 03:23:19.670
how do we atone for that? Because we have to,

03:23:19.709 --> 03:23:22.190
or we get guilty about it, and then we're exploitable,

03:23:22.329 --> 03:23:28.149
even by ourselves. I have an app coming out in

03:23:28.149 --> 03:23:31.389
a month or two, hopefully a month, called Essay,

03:23:31.430 --> 03:23:33.850
and I've been working on that with my son Julian

03:23:33.850 --> 03:23:37.930
and some other people. for four years and it

03:23:37.930 --> 03:23:40.610
stemmed out of our project to sort of universalize

03:23:40.610 --> 03:23:43.149
the university which was too big for me to manage

03:23:43.149 --> 03:23:45.610
when i got sick and sort of we narrowed it in

03:23:45.610 --> 03:23:47.750
scope because we wanted to teach people how to

03:23:47.750 --> 03:23:50.510
write and that's really hard to scale because

03:23:50.510 --> 03:23:53.309
you usually learn to write by having people write

03:23:53.309 --> 03:23:55.229
read what you've written and critique it and

03:23:55.229 --> 03:23:57.569
that's very labor intensive and expensive so

03:23:57.569 --> 03:24:01.930
we built a a writing program like a word processor

03:24:01.930 --> 03:24:07.059
that has built in conceptual tools that aid in

03:24:07.059 --> 03:24:09.860
the conceptualization of an essay so imagine

03:24:09.860 --> 03:24:12.360
when you're writing first of all you have to

03:24:12.360 --> 03:24:14.120
pick a good question because you want to answer

03:24:14.120 --> 03:24:16.840
it it has to be a genuine intellectual enterprise

03:24:16.840 --> 03:24:19.600
and so the people kids have never taught that

03:24:19.600 --> 03:24:22.860
and so pick something important that you want

03:24:22.860 --> 03:24:25.819
to explore and then okay so what are you doing

03:24:25.819 --> 03:24:32.799
when you're writing choosing words forming phrases,

03:24:33.000 --> 03:24:36.579
organizing them into sentences, sequencing the

03:24:36.579 --> 03:24:38.819
sentences and paragraphs, sequencing the paragraphs

03:24:38.819 --> 03:24:41.079
into the chapter, and then chapter into books

03:24:41.079 --> 03:24:43.260
if you're going that far. But so it's a hierarchical

03:24:43.260 --> 03:24:46.360
enterprise. And so when you write, you have to

03:24:46.360 --> 03:24:47.799
get the word right and the phrase right and the

03:24:47.799 --> 03:24:49.239
sentence right and the sentence order right.

03:24:49.420 --> 03:24:51.159
And you shouldn't do all that at once because

03:24:51.159 --> 03:24:53.579
you can't because it's too hard. So you write

03:24:53.579 --> 03:24:56.000
a rough first draft that's twice as long as the

03:24:56.000 --> 03:24:58.239
thing you're trying to write, and then you edit.

03:24:58.959 --> 03:25:01.299
You shorten the sentences, you pick the right

03:25:01.299 --> 03:25:03.399
words, you pick the right phrases, you rewrite

03:25:03.399 --> 03:25:05.500
the sentences. So we built in tools to guide

03:25:05.500 --> 03:25:08.420
people through this process, to help them conceptualize

03:25:08.420 --> 03:25:10.799
their essay at the level of the word and the

03:25:10.799 --> 03:25:13.059
phrase and the sentence and the paragraph, and

03:25:13.059 --> 03:25:15.940
to build those ideas of multi -level editing

03:25:15.940 --> 03:25:18.520
into the process. And then we've tested it on

03:25:18.520 --> 03:25:19.920
a lot of people, and we have a nice, elegant

03:25:19.920 --> 03:25:24.840
user interface. Because one of the things I've

03:25:24.840 --> 03:25:29.920
learned is that words are power. No. Wrong. Words

03:25:29.920 --> 03:25:32.899
are authority. Words are legitimate authority.

03:25:34.399 --> 03:25:38.319
And so, without having your words in order, you

03:25:38.319 --> 03:25:41.680
have no legitimate authority. And that's the

03:25:41.680 --> 03:25:45.020
last thing you want, unless all you want is irresponsibility,

03:25:45.100 --> 03:25:46.700
but that isn't going to work out for you anyway.

03:25:46.959 --> 03:25:50.780
And so, the pathway to success for... virtually

03:25:50.780 --> 03:25:53.420
everyone, is facilitation of their capacity to

03:25:53.420 --> 03:25:57.059
communicate. And so we're hoping, we really want

03:25:57.059 --> 03:26:01.280
to pull young men into using this product because

03:26:01.280 --> 03:26:03.459
they're the hardest market to target with such

03:26:03.459 --> 03:26:06.219
things and the most in need of it. And part of

03:26:06.219 --> 03:26:09.639
that is engaging them in an honest dialogue about

03:26:09.639 --> 03:26:13.420
what exactly writing is. It's like, there's no

03:26:13.420 --> 03:26:16.500
difference between writing and thinking. And

03:26:16.500 --> 03:26:18.819
there's no difference between thinking and not

03:26:18.819 --> 03:26:23.139
failing. So, you let your thoughts die instead

03:26:23.139 --> 03:26:27.059
of you. That's thinking. You test everything

03:26:27.059 --> 03:26:29.459
you do before you implement it. That's thinking.

03:26:29.540 --> 03:26:32.180
And writing is a massive aid to that process.

03:26:32.420 --> 03:26:35.819
And so, if young men, in particular, were taught

03:26:35.819 --> 03:26:39.500
properly about writing and thinking, they would

03:26:39.500 --> 03:26:42.920
come to view those as like arrows in their quiver.

03:26:44.020 --> 03:26:50.840
So, or shields in their combat. the means by

03:26:50.840 --> 03:26:53.700
which they aggregate their allies, or even more

03:26:53.700 --> 03:26:57.200
importantly, the means by which they serve themselves

03:26:57.200 --> 03:27:00.600
and the world properly. And like, really? No

03:27:00.600 --> 03:27:03.459
moral overlay on top of this. Well, you know,

03:27:03.520 --> 03:27:05.319
you're a communicator, like you're a comedian,

03:27:05.540 --> 03:27:07.680
you're a master of words, you're a master of

03:27:07.680 --> 03:27:10.750
wit, you're a master of listening. That's why

03:27:10.750 --> 03:27:12.870
you're successful in this weird, radical way

03:27:12.870 --> 03:27:15.489
that's completely unpredictable. And it's also

03:27:15.489 --> 03:27:17.690
the pathway to adventure. Get your words in order.

03:27:17.770 --> 03:27:20.590
And so that's Essay. And like I said, I think

03:27:20.590 --> 03:27:23.709
if you go to my website or to Essay .app, Essay

03:27:23.709 --> 03:27:27.549
.app or to my website, you can sign up for that.

03:27:27.670 --> 03:27:30.170
We're going to do a beta release, test it broadly

03:27:30.170 --> 03:27:33.370
to make sure it doesn't fall apart under use

03:27:33.370 --> 03:27:35.290
pressure and before we release it completely.

03:27:35.709 --> 03:27:38.010
But we're very excited about that because...

03:27:38.680 --> 03:27:40.860
How to teach people to write is a really hard

03:27:40.860 --> 03:27:45.079
academic problem to solve. And the idea of building

03:27:45.079 --> 03:27:49.639
the writing tools into the software, if we got

03:27:49.639 --> 03:27:53.540
it right, maybe could at least in part address

03:27:53.540 --> 03:27:55.340
that problem. It's a massive problem, right?

03:27:56.159 --> 03:27:57.860
Most people come through university now without

03:27:57.860 --> 03:28:00.000
learning how to write. And that means they don't

03:28:00.000 --> 03:28:01.559
know how to think. And that means they don't

03:28:01.559 --> 03:28:06.319
know how to talk. It's not good. So there's that,

03:28:06.399 --> 03:28:09.280
and it's the book and the music and the screenplay

03:28:09.280 --> 03:28:13.360
and this essay app. Oh, yeah, I'm going to be

03:28:13.360 --> 03:28:16.819
chancellor of a university, Ralston College in

03:28:16.819 --> 03:28:21.239
Savannah. And I also started this thing that

03:28:21.239 --> 03:28:22.559
we're going to launch called the Peterson Academy,

03:28:22.760 --> 03:28:24.479
where I'm going to get all the great lecturers

03:28:24.479 --> 03:28:28.500
I know to make courses. That'll be a free...

03:28:29.209 --> 03:28:31.530
That'll be a universally accessible university.

03:28:31.690 --> 03:28:33.309
It won't be free because I run things on a for

03:28:33.309 --> 03:28:35.809
-profit model for all sorts of reasons. Efficiency

03:28:35.809 --> 03:28:39.129
not being foremost among them. I recorded two

03:28:39.129 --> 03:28:42.030
courses for this when I was in Nashville. One

03:28:42.030 --> 03:28:45.250
on Jean Piaget, nine hours. I got way deeper

03:28:45.250 --> 03:28:47.069
into his thought than I'd ever been able to at

03:28:47.069 --> 03:28:49.030
the university. And then I recorded an updated

03:28:49.030 --> 03:28:52.190
version of my Maps of Meaning course. I compressed

03:28:52.190 --> 03:28:54.750
it from 40 hours to nine, which took me like

03:28:54.750 --> 03:28:59.600
40 years to do. Forty. 35 years to do. And I

03:28:59.600 --> 03:29:01.780
got way deeper into that too. I realized some

03:29:01.780 --> 03:29:04.440
things about the Exodus story. There's a scene

03:29:04.440 --> 03:29:06.780
in there in the Exodus story where God sends

03:29:06.780 --> 03:29:09.399
poisonous. This is so cool. It's so stunning.

03:29:09.420 --> 03:29:11.079
I'll tell you a little bit about it if you don't

03:29:11.079 --> 03:29:14.399
mind. It's so cool, Joe. I can't believe it can

03:29:14.399 --> 03:29:19.559
possibly be true. So Moses leads his people out

03:29:19.559 --> 03:29:22.559
of the tyranny, right? But weirdly enough, they

03:29:22.559 --> 03:29:25.120
don't go to the promised land. This is very weird.

03:29:25.559 --> 03:29:30.540
They go into the desert. Well, why? Well, we're

03:29:30.540 --> 03:29:33.739
all, say, prisoners of our own tyrannical misconceptions

03:29:33.739 --> 03:29:36.760
and misperceptions, psychologically and socially.

03:29:37.200 --> 03:29:42.700
So let's say we free ourselves from those. Well,

03:29:42.739 --> 03:29:47.319
then we're nowhere. At least we were guided by

03:29:47.319 --> 03:29:49.379
that. That's why people have nostalgia for tyranny.

03:29:49.860 --> 03:29:51.639
It's like at least we had enough to eat then.

03:29:51.700 --> 03:29:53.920
At least we knew who we were then. It's like

03:29:53.920 --> 03:29:59.260
out of the tyrant's grasp. Into the desert. And

03:29:59.260 --> 03:30:01.260
so you think, why don't people want to challenge

03:30:01.260 --> 03:30:03.579
their own preconceptions? It's like, yeah, it's

03:30:03.579 --> 03:30:05.379
out of the tyranny into the desert. And the worse

03:30:05.379 --> 03:30:09.979
the tyranny, the worse the desert. So if you've

03:30:09.979 --> 03:30:13.739
been tormenting yourself with tyrannical preconceptions

03:30:13.739 --> 03:30:16.120
and totalitarian obligations and you decide to

03:30:16.120 --> 03:30:18.440
drop it, or maybe you're shocked out of that

03:30:18.440 --> 03:30:21.899
by trauma, you don't go to paradise. You go to

03:30:21.899 --> 03:30:25.469
the desert. Maybe that's even worse. So no wonder

03:30:25.469 --> 03:30:28.510
people don't do it. So now the Israelites are

03:30:28.510 --> 03:30:29.750
out in the desert. You think, why are they there

03:30:29.750 --> 03:30:31.549
for 40 years? And maybe it's because it takes

03:30:31.549 --> 03:30:35.149
three generations to recover from tyranny. You're

03:30:35.149 --> 03:30:38.530
in the desert, man. And so the Israelites start

03:30:38.530 --> 03:30:41.350
worshipping idols. It's ideology. It's the same

03:30:41.350 --> 03:30:43.690
thing. And that's why, because they don't have

03:30:43.690 --> 03:30:45.370
anything to orient themselves, because they're

03:30:45.370 --> 03:30:48.170
not tyrannized anymore, and they get all fractious,

03:30:48.170 --> 03:30:50.430
and they fight with themselves, and Moses...

03:30:50.909 --> 03:30:54.329
has to spend like all day judging their conflicts

03:30:54.329 --> 03:30:56.170
because otherwise they're in each other's throats.

03:30:56.329 --> 03:30:59.090
And anyways, they turn to false idols. And so

03:30:59.090 --> 03:31:02.569
God isn't very happy about this. And he sends

03:31:02.569 --> 03:31:05.690
poisonous snakes in there to bite them. So it's

03:31:05.690 --> 03:31:10.270
like, out of the tyranny, into the desert. Now

03:31:10.270 --> 03:31:12.809
we're fractured by ideologies. Now the poisonous

03:31:12.809 --> 03:31:15.969
snakes come. And so the poisonous snakes are

03:31:15.969 --> 03:31:18.329
biting them and biting them and biting them.

03:31:18.370 --> 03:31:21.879
And they finally... break down and go to Moses

03:31:21.879 --> 03:31:25.879
and say, look, you want to have a chat with God

03:31:25.879 --> 03:31:28.899
and get him to call off the damn snakes? And

03:31:28.899 --> 03:31:31.340
Moses says, yeah, okay. And so he goes and talks

03:31:31.340 --> 03:31:36.260
to God. And God says, this is weird. This is

03:31:36.260 --> 03:31:38.979
one of those impossibly weird stories. You think

03:31:38.979 --> 03:31:42.559
this is either insane or it's true. Because that's

03:31:42.559 --> 03:31:45.180
the only options. It's not boring. It's not predictable.

03:31:45.500 --> 03:31:49.159
It's either insane or it's true. Okay. And maybe

03:31:49.159 --> 03:31:51.500
we could start by thinking it's insane, but whatever.

03:31:52.079 --> 03:31:55.420
Moses talks to God, and God could just call off

03:31:55.420 --> 03:31:57.440
the snakes, right? That's what you'd expect him

03:31:57.440 --> 03:32:02.659
to do, but that isn't what happens. He says,

03:32:02.799 --> 03:32:06.920
go make an image of a snake in bronze, and make

03:32:06.920 --> 03:32:10.020
an image of a stick, like a staff, and put the

03:32:10.020 --> 03:32:12.719
snake on the staff, and then stick it in the

03:32:12.719 --> 03:32:15.440
ground. And then have the Israelites go and look

03:32:15.440 --> 03:32:17.889
at the snake. And then the snakes won't bite

03:32:17.889 --> 03:32:20.829
them anymore. You think, what the hell is...

03:32:20.829 --> 03:32:23.209
That's the same symbol physicians use. Why do

03:32:23.209 --> 03:32:25.809
you think that that would be insane or true?

03:32:26.709 --> 03:32:29.750
Well, what does it mean? What the hell does that

03:32:29.750 --> 03:32:31.670
mean? What's he up to? What does many of the

03:32:31.670 --> 03:32:33.430
stories in the Bible mean? Well, that's what

03:32:33.430 --> 03:32:34.790
we're trying to figure out. Jesus coming back

03:32:34.790 --> 03:32:38.489
from the dead. Walking on water. Moses partying

03:32:38.489 --> 03:32:39.649
in the Red Sea. No, we're not. We're not going

03:32:39.649 --> 03:32:40.989
to be able to get all there, but we can get to

03:32:40.989 --> 03:32:44.489
this one. Okay. Okay, so... The caduceus. Yeah,

03:32:44.670 --> 03:32:49.290
same symbol. You know the links to that in Mesopotamia?

03:32:49.549 --> 03:32:52.750
Yeah, the ancient Sumerians. Yeah, and it's the

03:32:52.750 --> 03:32:55.110
snake that sheds the skin. Yeah, I know. It's

03:32:55.110 --> 03:32:57.309
a symbol of transformation. They also think it

03:32:57.309 --> 03:32:59.629
might have had roots in the double helix of DNA.

03:32:59.770 --> 03:33:02.770
That's what the wacky conspiracy theorists. Yeah,

03:33:02.870 --> 03:33:04.549
I know. And they go deep down the rabbit hole

03:33:04.549 --> 03:33:08.260
of the Anunnaki. stripped my skin off when I

03:33:08.260 --> 03:33:10.059
went to Oxford to talk to him about that. He

03:33:10.059 --> 03:33:13.860
said, you said that under some conditions shamanic

03:33:13.860 --> 03:33:15.979
people might be able to see DNA. It's like, that's

03:33:15.979 --> 03:33:19.239
complete nonsense. He doesn't know. The problem

03:33:19.239 --> 03:33:21.219
with Richard Dawkins is he's had zero psychedelic

03:33:21.219 --> 03:33:24.020
experiences. If you have psychedelic experiences,

03:33:24.260 --> 03:33:27.459
you see all kinds of iconography from ancient

03:33:27.459 --> 03:33:31.180
Egypt. You see hieroglyphics. You see geometry.

03:33:32.219 --> 03:33:34.750
Is that true or insane? But it doesn't matter

03:33:34.750 --> 03:33:37.629
if it's true or insane. It's repeatable. You

03:33:37.629 --> 03:33:40.090
could have it over and over. I mean, people who

03:33:40.090 --> 03:33:43.110
take mushrooms and people who take dimethyltryptamine

03:33:43.110 --> 03:33:46.149
have these kind of images. They happen all the

03:33:46.149 --> 03:33:49.930
time. It's not uncommon. So the idea that it's

03:33:49.930 --> 03:33:52.670
impossible for those people from thousands of

03:33:52.670 --> 03:33:55.350
years ago to actually see the double helix pattern

03:33:55.350 --> 03:33:58.649
of DNA says who? Well, I'm glad you said it and

03:33:58.649 --> 03:34:02.530
not me. Me, I'll say it. Okay. Richard Dawkins

03:34:02.530 --> 03:34:06.129
is a brilliant man. Yes. But he stands on this

03:34:06.129 --> 03:34:09.909
foundation of a lack of experience, the lack

03:34:09.909 --> 03:34:12.790
of experience of psychedelics. And he's been

03:34:12.790 --> 03:34:15.909
tempted to do it before under clinical settings.

03:34:15.930 --> 03:34:18.149
He's talked about it, but he's never done it.

03:34:18.229 --> 03:34:21.209
So the idea that that's preposterous, everything.

03:34:22.170 --> 03:34:24.489
when you're on psychedelics is preposterous.

03:34:24.649 --> 03:34:27.850
But they're real. Not real in the sense of you

03:34:27.850 --> 03:34:30.129
can put it on a scale, but real in the sense

03:34:30.129 --> 03:34:33.489
of if I give you DMT, you will fucking go there.

03:34:33.670 --> 03:34:35.969
You will go there just like everybody goes there.

03:34:36.110 --> 03:34:39.030
And if you try to hang on, good luck. You're

03:34:39.030 --> 03:34:41.010
going to get shot through a cannon to the center

03:34:41.010 --> 03:34:43.639
of the universe. And that's just how it goes.

03:34:43.819 --> 03:34:47.100
And so you can either have experienced that or

03:34:47.100 --> 03:34:50.059
you're talking out of your ass. So if you say,

03:34:50.120 --> 03:34:52.500
do you think those people thousands of years

03:34:52.500 --> 03:34:55.159
ago could have had a shamanic experience where

03:34:55.159 --> 03:34:58.819
they saw the double helix pattern of DNA? Yeah.

03:34:59.520 --> 03:35:03.770
Yeah, and you can too. You can too. And it's

03:35:03.770 --> 03:35:05.790
not just because you know what the double helix

03:35:05.790 --> 03:35:08.969
pattern of DNA is, because you can also see souls.

03:35:09.250 --> 03:35:12.149
You can also see the very components. You're

03:35:12.149 --> 03:35:14.270
talking just like the conservative that everyone

03:35:14.270 --> 03:35:17.229
thinks you are. Yeah, that's me, bro. Let's go

03:35:17.229 --> 03:35:21.329
back to this story. Okay. So the snake, the staff.

03:35:21.329 --> 03:35:24.829
You have to go look on the snake. Yes. Okay.

03:35:25.350 --> 03:35:28.690
Here's the doctrine from all fields of psychotherapy.

03:35:29.010 --> 03:35:33.489
Okay. Look at what you're terrified of. and you

03:35:33.489 --> 03:35:36.729
will get braver. Unless what you're terrified

03:35:36.729 --> 03:35:38.489
of is a pack of wolves and they're going to fucking

03:35:38.489 --> 03:35:40.229
eat you. Yeah, well, look, it's not like there

03:35:40.229 --> 03:35:42.350
aren't real dangers, but look, if you're threatened

03:35:42.350 --> 03:35:44.209
by a pack of wolves and you go out and study

03:35:44.209 --> 03:35:48.209
them... You'll realize you're fucked. Unless

03:35:48.209 --> 03:35:51.430
you have guns. Okay, so the classic therapeutic

03:35:51.430 --> 03:35:55.489
treatment for terror and the poisoning that terror

03:35:55.489 --> 03:35:57.930
induces is exposure, voluntary exposure. Okay,

03:35:57.989 --> 03:36:04.639
so the pattern there is... Face what you're most

03:36:04.639 --> 03:36:08.559
afraid of and you will be free. Okay. Okay. That

03:36:08.559 --> 03:36:10.559
makes sense. Voluntarily. Yeah. Now that's a

03:36:10.559 --> 03:36:14.000
doctrine of psychotherapy now. Right. Okay. So

03:36:14.000 --> 03:36:17.219
now that's weird. That's weird. So God doesn't

03:36:17.219 --> 03:36:19.600
chase away the snakes. He makes everyone braver.

03:36:19.920 --> 03:36:22.639
Okay. Because that's better than being safe.

03:36:22.899 --> 03:36:25.979
Bravery is better than safety. It's a more reliable

03:36:25.979 --> 03:36:30.299
cure for terror. Okay. Now that's cool. But this

03:36:30.299 --> 03:36:34.879
is even more cool. In the Gospels, Christ says

03:36:34.879 --> 03:36:36.940
that he has to be lifted up like the serpent

03:36:36.940 --> 03:36:40.819
in the desert. You think, what the hell does

03:36:40.819 --> 03:36:43.659
that possibly mean? Because, well, that's a snake

03:36:43.659 --> 03:36:47.440
first on a stick. And Christ is comparing himself

03:36:47.440 --> 03:36:53.180
to a snake on a stick? Okay, so what can this

03:36:53.180 --> 03:36:56.440
possibly mean? Well, I was thinking about that

03:36:56.440 --> 03:36:58.799
in relationship to imagery of the crucifix and

03:36:58.799 --> 03:37:01.299
the story that surrounds it. So Jung thought

03:37:01.299 --> 03:37:05.290
that the... Passion story was archetypal because

03:37:05.290 --> 03:37:10.149
it's a limit story, like this debate at Oxford.

03:37:11.350 --> 03:37:14.430
You cannot write a more tragic story. It's impossible,

03:37:14.770 --> 03:37:18.450
technically. Why? Well, because it's a story

03:37:18.450 --> 03:37:20.450
of the aggregation of everything that people

03:37:20.450 --> 03:37:24.010
are afraid of. So there was no death more painful

03:37:24.010 --> 03:37:26.129
than crucifixion. That's why the Romans invented

03:37:26.129 --> 03:37:29.090
it. It was to punish political miscreants. It

03:37:29.090 --> 03:37:32.510
was a slow, agonizing death by suffocation. essentially,

03:37:32.569 --> 03:37:37.510
and dehydration and exposure. It's extraordinarily

03:37:37.510 --> 03:37:41.309
painful. Okay, so that sucks. That's pain, man.

03:37:41.469 --> 03:37:43.209
Plus you know it's coming. That's part of the

03:37:43.209 --> 03:37:46.829
story. Plus your best friend betrayed you into

03:37:46.829 --> 03:37:49.690
it. Plus your people turned against you. Plus

03:37:49.690 --> 03:37:52.569
they're led by a tyrant who doubts truth. Plus

03:37:52.569 --> 03:37:55.209
you're a victim of the Roman Empire. Plus you're

03:37:55.209 --> 03:37:58.010
completely innocent. Plus everybody knows it.

03:37:58.450 --> 03:38:01.500
Plus they... They choose a criminal to be released

03:38:01.500 --> 03:38:03.440
from this experience instead of you, even though

03:38:03.440 --> 03:38:05.020
they know he's a criminal and they know you're

03:38:05.020 --> 03:38:09.719
innocent. So, and you're young, and you've done

03:38:09.719 --> 03:38:11.719
no wrong, and all you've done is help people.

03:38:12.620 --> 03:38:15.739
So it's a limit story. Okay, so then you think,

03:38:15.860 --> 03:38:19.500
we've been looking at that limit story for 2

03:38:19.500 --> 03:38:22.680
,000 years, in the image and in the story. What

03:38:22.680 --> 03:38:25.219
are we doing? Well, you're supposed to visit

03:38:25.219 --> 03:38:27.559
the stations of the cross, let's say. Okay, here's

03:38:27.559 --> 03:38:30.969
the idea. You hear the crucifixion story, and

03:38:30.969 --> 03:38:36.110
you play with it. Who are you? Maybe if you're

03:38:36.110 --> 03:38:38.149
female, you're Mary, and why is that? It's the

03:38:38.149 --> 03:38:40.229
pieda. Because you have to offer your children

03:38:40.229 --> 03:38:43.649
to the destruction of the world. That's female

03:38:43.649 --> 03:38:46.270
courage. That's the mother that doesn't hold

03:38:46.270 --> 03:38:50.250
her child back. It's like, go out. To what? Eventually

03:38:50.250 --> 03:38:53.969
your death and destruction. Go out. Leave me.

03:38:54.110 --> 03:38:56.870
Be in the world. That's... Feminine courage,

03:38:57.030 --> 03:39:01.469
man, to let her baby go. You're a pilot. You

03:39:01.469 --> 03:39:05.290
doubt truth. But you'll go along with the crowd.

03:39:05.469 --> 03:39:08.750
You're Judas because you betray your best friend.

03:39:09.649 --> 03:39:13.790
You're the mob. You're the criminal. All of that,

03:39:13.809 --> 03:39:17.209
that's you. You look on all those things that

03:39:17.209 --> 03:39:21.889
you hate and are terrified by. That's not a snake.

03:39:22.149 --> 03:39:25.209
It's like the worst of all possible snakes everywhere.

03:39:26.059 --> 03:39:29.260
That's what you're looking at. And what do you

03:39:29.260 --> 03:39:32.879
see? You see death, you see destruction, pain,

03:39:33.180 --> 03:39:38.239
terror, tyranny, frailty, betrayal. Look harder.

03:39:38.659 --> 03:39:44.440
Look harder. Look harder. What do you see? The

03:39:44.440 --> 03:39:48.500
death and resurrection. You look far enough into

03:39:48.500 --> 03:39:52.569
the abyss, you see the light. Well... That's

03:39:52.569 --> 03:39:54.510
the story. That's the connection between those

03:39:54.510 --> 03:39:57.450
stories. And this unbelievably strange thing

03:39:57.450 --> 03:40:00.909
is, is that connection exists. It's like, there's

03:40:00.909 --> 03:40:02.870
this strange story of the serpent in the desert,

03:40:02.930 --> 03:40:04.989
and we know that story. It's 3 ,000 years old,

03:40:05.069 --> 03:40:08.069
something like that. We know that. And then we

03:40:08.069 --> 03:40:11.569
know perfectly well that Christ said that he

03:40:11.569 --> 03:40:13.829
was allied, that his image was allied with that

03:40:13.829 --> 03:40:16.090
snake. That's written down. And even if you don't

03:40:16.090 --> 03:40:17.729
believe in the historical reality of Christ,

03:40:18.010 --> 03:40:22.090
someone still made that connection. And did they

03:40:22.090 --> 03:40:24.709
know everything we were talking about today explicitly?

03:40:25.149 --> 03:40:27.850
What do you think they did know? What do you

03:40:27.850 --> 03:40:29.670
think? I mean, we were talking about this before,

03:40:29.770 --> 03:40:33.489
that the roots of these religious experiences

03:40:33.489 --> 03:40:37.530
almost certainly come from some sort of transcendent

03:40:37.530 --> 03:40:40.950
experience. Well, when Eliot mapped out the shamanic

03:40:40.950 --> 03:40:47.329
experience, he laid out the pattern. So shaman

03:40:47.329 --> 03:40:52.889
die. They're reduced to a skeleton. They're reduced

03:40:52.889 --> 03:40:59.250
to dust. And then they climb the axis that unites

03:40:59.250 --> 03:41:02.950
heaven and earth and enter the kingdom of the

03:41:02.950 --> 03:41:06.030
ancestors and the gods. They have a paradisal

03:41:06.030 --> 03:41:10.469
experience and they come back and share it. That's

03:41:10.469 --> 03:41:13.409
a death and resurrection. That's what they experience.

03:41:14.149 --> 03:41:17.129
So what does that mean? I don't know what it

03:41:17.129 --> 03:41:20.559
means. But that's what happens. And then we know

03:41:20.559 --> 03:41:23.479
from Murerescu's book, people can read it and

03:41:23.479 --> 03:41:26.260
make up their own bloody minds. Do your investigation.

03:41:26.680 --> 03:41:29.479
It was probably the origin of democracy. It was

03:41:29.479 --> 03:41:33.700
the origin of Greek culture. The Eleusinian Mysteries.

03:41:33.739 --> 03:41:36.040
And was that a psychedelic experience? It's like...

03:41:36.139 --> 03:41:38.200
Come up with a better hypothesis. Good luck.

03:41:38.280 --> 03:41:39.959
Well, there's physical evidence now. Yeah, yeah.

03:41:39.959 --> 03:41:43.780
Because of Meru Rescue. All these ethnobotanists.

03:41:43.920 --> 03:41:46.739
Yeah, they know. And botanical archaeologists.

03:41:47.100 --> 03:41:49.479
Yeah, they're messing about with ergot. Yeah.

03:41:49.600 --> 03:41:51.879
And psilocybin. God only knows how long. I mean,

03:41:51.879 --> 03:41:54.020
how long have they... And then there's DMT in

03:41:54.020 --> 03:41:59.010
the Amazon. I mean... There's a massive shamanic

03:41:59.010 --> 03:42:01.350
tradition, and it stems back way into the Stone

03:42:01.350 --> 03:42:03.649
Age, and that's its pattern. Well, you know,

03:42:03.670 --> 03:42:08.629
what university was it in Israel, in Jerusalem,

03:42:08.729 --> 03:42:11.010
that made the connection between the burning

03:42:11.010 --> 03:42:15.090
bush and Moses and DMT because of the acacia

03:42:15.090 --> 03:42:18.129
tree, the acacia tree, which is rich in DMT.

03:42:18.170 --> 03:42:20.690
And they made this connection, like, most likely.

03:42:20.690 --> 03:42:22.430
We don't know what was in the Ark of the Covenant.

03:42:22.530 --> 03:42:25.180
Right. We know that the people who were going

03:42:25.180 --> 03:42:27.459
to approach it purified themselves before they

03:42:27.459 --> 03:42:33.120
dared do it. You know, we know that a good psychedelic

03:42:33.120 --> 03:42:36.399
experience will drag you through your sins. That's

03:42:36.399 --> 03:42:43.020
known as a bad trip. Yeah. So what do we make

03:42:43.020 --> 03:42:45.239
of the fact that the shamanic experience, which

03:42:45.239 --> 03:42:47.700
is replicable cross -culturally and which dominated

03:42:47.700 --> 03:42:50.180
the human landscape for at least 20 ,000 years,

03:42:50.459 --> 03:42:55.309
we know that... It involves a death and a resurrection

03:42:55.309 --> 03:42:58.450
and an entry into paradise and a reunion with

03:42:58.450 --> 03:43:03.069
the ancestors. So what does it mean? Who knows,

03:43:03.090 --> 03:43:07.729
man? This is way past my knowledge, but I know

03:43:07.729 --> 03:43:10.090
that connection that I just told you about between

03:43:10.090 --> 03:43:14.190
the story in the New Testament and that story

03:43:14.190 --> 03:43:16.829
in Exodus. That took me like 30 years to figure

03:43:16.829 --> 03:43:19.030
out. Because there's also the idea that the hero

03:43:19.030 --> 03:43:23.180
goes into the abyss. to rescue his father from

03:43:23.180 --> 03:43:26.059
the belly of the beast. But that's the same idea,

03:43:26.239 --> 03:43:28.399
right? You go down, and I thought, I knew this

03:43:28.399 --> 03:43:29.899
the last time I went to lecture too, is like,

03:43:30.000 --> 03:43:33.639
you look into the abyss long enough and you see,

03:43:33.760 --> 03:43:38.239
you see the spirit of the benevolent father manifesting

03:43:38.239 --> 03:43:41.959
itself. That's the case. That is the case. If

03:43:41.959 --> 03:43:44.379
you look into the depths of evil and suffering,

03:43:44.680 --> 03:43:48.200
what you see is not the finality of evil and

03:43:48.200 --> 03:43:53.100
suffering. You see the... The victory of the

03:43:53.100 --> 03:43:57.680
spirit that obtains victory over that. And then

03:43:57.680 --> 03:43:59.280
you might think biologically, well, how could

03:43:59.280 --> 03:44:01.579
it be any different, Joe? That's the spirit of

03:44:01.579 --> 03:44:05.479
life. Life is mortal suffering. It's like, but

03:44:05.479 --> 03:44:08.620
we live. What's the spirit of victorious life

03:44:08.620 --> 03:44:13.280
if it's not the benevolent Father who overcomes

03:44:13.280 --> 03:44:15.670
the catastrophe of suffering? Like, what else

03:44:15.670 --> 03:44:16.930
could it possibly be? Even if you think about

03:44:16.930 --> 03:44:19.450
this just as an instinct. It's like you're threatened

03:44:19.450 --> 03:44:22.209
by what's worse than death, and there are plenty

03:44:22.209 --> 03:44:24.209
of things worse than death that you can be threatened

03:44:24.209 --> 03:44:28.209
by. And yet you have a revelation that enables

03:44:28.209 --> 03:44:31.489
your transcendence of that. Well, what could

03:44:31.489 --> 03:44:34.069
it be other than the spirit that overcomes death

03:44:34.069 --> 03:44:38.350
in some fundamental sense? Now, how fundamental?

03:44:39.030 --> 03:44:43.959
Look, think about it this way. Maybe we're running

03:44:43.959 --> 03:44:47.899
at 10 % capacity, us human beings. I don't mean

03:44:47.899 --> 03:44:49.959
we use 10 % of our brain. That isn't what I mean.

03:44:50.059 --> 03:44:52.799
I mean, we're not fully committed to the enterprise.

03:44:53.600 --> 03:44:57.219
So let's say, here's the enterprise. Let's make

03:44:57.219 --> 03:44:59.459
everything better and better as fast as we can

03:44:59.459 --> 03:45:02.940
for everyone. Like full, flat, bloody out, 100

03:45:02.940 --> 03:45:06.379
% committed. No resentment. Well, what's stopping

03:45:06.379 --> 03:45:08.659
us from being committed to the enterprise? Like

03:45:08.659 --> 03:45:10.459
when you say we're not committed to the enterprise.

03:45:10.680 --> 03:45:12.159
Is that what it is, really? Oh, some. Don't you

03:45:12.159 --> 03:45:14.739
think it's like individual desires for achievement

03:45:14.739 --> 03:45:18.760
instead of thinking in terms of the greater good

03:45:18.760 --> 03:45:21.540
of the group? Well, no, no, no. I think that

03:45:21.540 --> 03:45:24.909
can be. That's a minor impediment in some sense.

03:45:24.909 --> 03:45:27.110
But we're not working in cooperation. Well, that's,

03:45:27.229 --> 03:45:30.729
yes. But that's individual desires for their

03:45:30.729 --> 03:45:33.049
own personal achievement versus the greater good

03:45:33.049 --> 03:45:35.610
of everybody. Yes, but I would say that's not

03:45:35.610 --> 03:45:38.290
the worst problem. But isn't that like the origins

03:45:38.290 --> 03:45:42.950
of the good concepts of socialism, the good concepts

03:45:42.950 --> 03:45:45.690
of people working together? Like that's the origins

03:45:45.690 --> 03:45:47.909
of it. It's like if we all just work together,

03:45:48.069 --> 03:45:50.969
if we all just share, what it doesn't take into

03:45:50.969 --> 03:45:53.719
account is human nature. Right. Yeah, sure. That's

03:45:53.719 --> 03:45:56.219
fine. And I also think that, look, if you have

03:45:56.219 --> 03:45:59.219
kid A and kid B on the playground and they're

03:45:59.219 --> 03:46:01.100
both selfish, they don't play very well together.

03:46:01.299 --> 03:46:03.940
Right. And so you could say, well, their selfishness,

03:46:04.000 --> 03:46:06.760
which is like a narrow self -centeredness, makes

03:46:06.760 --> 03:46:08.540
it impossible for them to cooperate. And then

03:46:08.540 --> 03:46:10.180
they can't even play very good games because

03:46:10.180 --> 03:46:11.959
it's actually more fun to play with other people

03:46:11.959 --> 03:46:15.000
than to play with yourself. Even sexually, for

03:46:15.000 --> 03:46:17.500
all you pornography addicts, by the way. So,

03:46:17.600 --> 03:46:20.659
yeah. So in any case, it's a form of, but at

03:46:20.659 --> 03:46:23.809
least, at least, The people who are selfishly

03:46:23.809 --> 03:46:28.850
achieving value achievement. You can get way...

03:46:28.850 --> 03:46:32.030
Look, I'll tell you a story. Someone wrote to

03:46:32.030 --> 03:46:35.389
me two months ago, and Warren Farrell wrote The

03:46:35.389 --> 03:46:38.670
Boy Crisis. We had a conversation about boys

03:46:38.670 --> 03:46:41.309
who aren't encouraged and how bitter they can

03:46:41.309 --> 03:46:44.450
become for all sorts of different reasons. And

03:46:44.450 --> 03:46:47.270
somebody wrote us who was planning to shoot up

03:46:47.270 --> 03:46:50.809
a high school. And he'd written a 53 -page manifesto.

03:46:51.600 --> 03:46:53.719
And he was in touch with the last person who

03:46:53.719 --> 03:46:55.319
shot up a high school. They were corresponding.

03:46:55.319 --> 03:46:57.299
Because it's a competition, you know, that shooting

03:46:57.299 --> 03:46:59.940
up high schools. That's a competition. It's a

03:46:59.940 --> 03:47:02.520
very, very dark competition. You have to do a

03:47:02.520 --> 03:47:07.340
lot of brooding over evil before you want to

03:47:07.340 --> 03:47:10.059
emerge victorious in that competition. That's

03:47:10.059 --> 03:47:13.379
like months of pathological fantasizing that

03:47:13.379 --> 03:47:16.840
you nurse and nurse. And it's all resentment

03:47:16.840 --> 03:47:21.500
driven. And so... that's way worse than just

03:47:21.500 --> 03:47:25.520
a bit of a warped desire to achieve. It's like

03:47:25.520 --> 03:47:31.239
Heath Ledger's Joker. He wasn't a criminal. Criminals

03:47:31.239 --> 03:47:33.059
you can trust, man. It's like they want your

03:47:33.059 --> 03:47:35.459
car. So do you. You've got lots of common ground.

03:47:36.260 --> 03:47:39.540
It's the guy who wants to burn your car. That's

03:47:39.540 --> 03:47:43.840
a whole different level of mayhem. And you think,

03:47:43.879 --> 03:47:47.159
how do people get there? Well, their lives have

03:47:47.159 --> 03:47:51.120
no positive meaning. Abuse. Resentment. Resentment.

03:47:51.260 --> 03:47:54.500
Rejection. Yeah. But also, see, when God, when

03:47:54.500 --> 03:47:58.500
Cain slays Abel, when Cain gets jealous of Abel

03:47:58.500 --> 03:48:00.959
in the biblical story, and no wonder, because

03:48:00.959 --> 03:48:05.020
Abel is like, he's everybody's golden boy. He's

03:48:05.020 --> 03:48:07.200
good looking. He's successful. He works hard.

03:48:07.360 --> 03:48:09.979
He's a really good person. He gets everything

03:48:09.979 --> 03:48:12.719
and deserves it. The Harvard students were very

03:48:12.719 --> 03:48:15.500
annoying in that way when I was there. It's like...

03:48:16.489 --> 03:48:18.709
They had these positions of privilege, let's

03:48:18.709 --> 03:48:21.430
say. It's a very terrible way of conceptualizing,

03:48:21.469 --> 03:48:24.049
but we'll give the devil his due. And it's like

03:48:24.049 --> 03:48:26.590
you'd hope that they'd be whiny, spoiled, self

03:48:26.590 --> 03:48:28.889
-centered, narcissistic brats, because then at

03:48:28.889 --> 03:48:31.149
least you could hate them in good conscience

03:48:31.149 --> 03:48:35.569
for their success. But they weren't. They were

03:48:35.569 --> 03:48:40.629
smart, attractive, hardworking, talented, athletic,

03:48:41.030 --> 03:48:48.270
like, polite, cooperative. They were great. And

03:48:48.270 --> 03:48:52.170
so how annoying is that? If you've rejected all

03:48:52.170 --> 03:48:56.170
of that. How annoying is that? Well, so that's

03:48:56.170 --> 03:48:59.030
Cain and Abel. So Cain goes to God to crab and

03:48:59.030 --> 03:49:03.049
complain. You know, what's going on? Abel makes

03:49:03.049 --> 03:49:05.950
these sacrifices and you reward him. And I make

03:49:05.950 --> 03:49:08.809
a sacrifice and I don't get anywhere. And that's

03:49:08.809 --> 03:49:11.190
the complaint of everyone, bitter. I made all

03:49:11.190 --> 03:49:14.690
these sacrifices and God rejected them. It's

03:49:14.690 --> 03:49:18.549
like, yeah, that sucks. Well, so God says to

03:49:18.549 --> 03:49:21.850
Cain, I had to look at a bunch of different translations

03:49:21.850 --> 03:49:26.610
to kind of get this right. God says something

03:49:26.610 --> 03:49:31.090
like, sin crouches at your door like a predatory,

03:49:31.229 --> 03:49:35.090
sexually aroused animal. It wants to have its

03:49:35.090 --> 03:49:40.549
way with you. And you invited it in and let it

03:49:40.549 --> 03:49:43.659
have its way with you. And it's this great metaphor

03:49:43.659 --> 03:49:48.639
because that kind of evil is that that's creative.

03:49:49.239 --> 03:49:52.579
That's creative. It's like inviting a vampire

03:49:52.579 --> 03:49:57.780
in. It's like, invite that in. Say, inhabit me.

03:49:58.520 --> 03:50:00.639
Then you toy with it and toy with it, and you

03:50:00.639 --> 03:50:03.040
let the fantasies of revenge build in your head

03:50:03.040 --> 03:50:06.440
until it inflates you into something that's indistinguishable

03:50:06.440 --> 03:50:09.920
from demonic. Read the writings of the Columbine

03:50:09.920 --> 03:50:11.860
kids. If you want to find out about this, I mean,

03:50:11.879 --> 03:50:14.719
it's crystal clear. They're the judges of the

03:50:14.719 --> 03:50:17.020
human race. They want to eradicate being itself.

03:50:17.340 --> 03:50:19.979
They are out for revenge against God. Like, this

03:50:19.979 --> 03:50:23.500
stuff is biblical. They're also on psychotropic

03:50:23.500 --> 03:50:26.340
medication. Yeah, yeah, well, there's all sorts

03:50:26.340 --> 03:50:29.139
of... Yeah. There's all sorts of problems. I'm

03:50:29.139 --> 03:50:31.700
talking specifically about this. But lots of

03:50:31.700 --> 03:50:33.680
people on psychotropic medications don't shoot

03:50:33.680 --> 03:50:36.120
up high schools. Right, but under the right conditions,

03:50:36.219 --> 03:50:38.520
people that are on, I mean, I don't know what

03:50:38.520 --> 03:50:40.540
kind of psychotropic medications they were on,

03:50:40.639 --> 03:50:46.819
but some of them act as, there's a way where

03:50:46.819 --> 03:50:49.340
you take them where it makes everything okay.

03:50:49.719 --> 03:50:53.159
It alleviates consequence. It alleviates the

03:50:53.159 --> 03:50:58.600
feeling of... whatever you're doing being wrong.

03:50:59.459 --> 03:51:02.899
Yeah, well, that didn't happen in the Columbine

03:51:02.899 --> 03:51:06.559
case. They knew it was wrong. No, no. No, no.

03:51:06.639 --> 03:51:08.719
What are you saying? No, no, they were doing

03:51:08.719 --> 03:51:10.920
it because it was wrong. Right. They didn't just

03:51:10.920 --> 03:51:12.000
know, but that's different, right? But wrong

03:51:12.000 --> 03:51:14.280
is the wrong word then. No, no, it isn't. It's

03:51:14.280 --> 03:51:16.639
exactly right. They were out to do the maximal

03:51:16.639 --> 03:51:19.159
amount of harm in the minimal amount of time.

03:51:19.629 --> 03:51:22.629
But they felt it was the thing to do, and they

03:51:22.629 --> 03:51:25.309
didn't think that there was something that they

03:51:25.309 --> 03:51:29.569
shouldn't do. No, no. No, no. No, no, no. It's

03:51:29.569 --> 03:51:32.750
like the Joker. Right, but they did it. He burns

03:51:32.750 --> 03:51:33.850
the money. They thought it was something they

03:51:33.850 --> 03:51:36.909
should do. No. But they did it. Yes. So they

03:51:36.909 --> 03:51:38.950
thought it was something they should do. No.

03:51:39.069 --> 03:51:41.489
What are you saying? I'm saying they decided.

03:51:41.790 --> 03:51:45.909
But they wanted to do it. Yes. And they did it.

03:51:46.110 --> 03:51:47.809
Yes. So it was something they should do. No.

03:51:49.659 --> 03:51:51.719
No, they did it because it was the worst thing

03:51:51.719 --> 03:51:53.579
they could think of. Right, which is what they

03:51:53.579 --> 03:51:55.540
should do, because they wanted to do the worst

03:51:55.540 --> 03:51:57.459
thing they could do. Yes, they wanted to do,

03:51:57.459 --> 03:51:58.739
we can agree on that. That's what I'm saying.

03:51:58.840 --> 03:52:02.379
But I'm saying being under the influence of psychotropic

03:52:02.379 --> 03:52:06.459
drugs, it's like the question of causality, right?

03:52:06.459 --> 03:52:08.979
It wasn't because their conscience was alleviated

03:52:08.979 --> 03:52:12.540
by the drugs. They knew that what they were doing,

03:52:12.639 --> 03:52:14.940
they'd already planned to die. Right. Well, so

03:52:14.940 --> 03:52:17.559
then here, ask yourself this. If you plan to

03:52:17.559 --> 03:52:20.469
die, Why not just save everybody the trouble

03:52:20.469 --> 03:52:23.409
and die first? Because you're angry. Because

03:52:23.409 --> 03:52:26.170
you want revenge. Yeah, you want revenge. But

03:52:26.170 --> 03:52:28.190
you want revenge against the innocent. Do these

03:52:28.190 --> 03:52:33.450
drugs that change your state allow you to do

03:52:33.450 --> 03:52:36.049
things that are impossible to do without them?

03:52:36.170 --> 03:52:39.809
No. Some horrific acts that you don't think so.

03:52:40.010 --> 03:52:43.510
No, I don't think that was... So there's a question.

03:52:43.690 --> 03:52:45.889
This comes up. This is why I'm asking you this.

03:52:46.879 --> 03:52:50.399
And you're a good person to answer. The question

03:52:50.399 --> 03:52:56.000
of whether or not it causes something or the

03:52:56.000 --> 03:52:59.959
fact that they're on these drugs because they've

03:52:59.959 --> 03:53:02.860
been so tortured by life that they needed these

03:53:02.860 --> 03:53:05.239
drugs. These drugs are not causing these actions.

03:53:05.379 --> 03:53:09.360
Right. Yes. That's what you think? Yes. In all

03:53:09.360 --> 03:53:13.100
cases? No. Because something's almost never all.

03:53:13.979 --> 03:53:18.659
And people... will react idiosyncratically to

03:53:18.659 --> 03:53:20.920
all sorts of medications in somewhat unpredictable

03:53:20.920 --> 03:53:26.420
ways. But there's no straightforward pathway

03:53:26.420 --> 03:53:29.500
from the use of such drugs to that level of atrocity.

03:53:29.639 --> 03:53:32.139
But you know that there's a direct correlation

03:53:32.139 --> 03:53:36.860
that almost all school shooters are on psychotropic

03:53:36.860 --> 03:53:38.739
drugs. Yeah, but they're all depressed, so that's

03:53:38.739 --> 03:53:42.079
not surprising. And they're not exactly depressed.

03:53:42.559 --> 03:53:46.020
They're nihilistic. They're nihilistic in a way

03:53:46.020 --> 03:53:48.920
that manifests itself as a kind of depression

03:53:48.920 --> 03:53:52.299
that would elicit psychotropic medication. But

03:53:52.299 --> 03:53:54.940
it's not depression precisely. I had a friend

03:53:54.940 --> 03:53:58.219
who was on, I think it was on Zoloft, and their

03:53:58.219 --> 03:54:01.500
take on it was that they lost a whole year of

03:54:01.500 --> 03:54:02.860
their life where they just didn't give a fuck

03:54:02.860 --> 03:54:05.479
about anything. And they just felt like nothing

03:54:05.479 --> 03:54:08.200
mattered. Everything was fine. Nothing mattered.

03:54:08.299 --> 03:54:10.600
There are people who report emotional blunting

03:54:10.600 --> 03:54:13.559
of that sort on antidepressants. If you are...

03:54:14.170 --> 03:54:17.209
tortured and angry and furious, and then you're

03:54:17.209 --> 03:54:19.129
put on something where it doesn't matter. Nothing

03:54:19.129 --> 03:54:20.590
matters. I don't give a fuck. You think it'll

03:54:20.590 --> 03:54:24.569
alleviate conscience? Yes. No. No way? Like I

03:54:24.569 --> 03:54:29.190
said, zero of anything is pushing too hard, so

03:54:29.190 --> 03:54:34.829
I wouldn't rule out the possibility of idiosyncratic

03:54:34.829 --> 03:54:37.569
responses, but these drugs are extraordinarily

03:54:37.569 --> 03:54:40.309
widely used, antidepressants, and the proportion

03:54:40.309 --> 03:54:43.409
of people who... commit atrocious acts on them

03:54:43.409 --> 03:54:46.069
is infinitesimally small. Right. But the proportion

03:54:46.069 --> 03:54:51.030
of people who commit atrocious acts while they're

03:54:51.030 --> 03:54:53.590
on those medications is extraordinarily high.

03:54:53.870 --> 03:54:56.850
Right. But I don't believe that that's involved

03:54:56.850 --> 03:54:58.850
in the causal pathway. Is that because you have

03:54:58.850 --> 03:55:03.629
personal experience with these drugs? That would

03:55:03.629 --> 03:55:05.649
be part of it, but that's not the primary. I

03:55:05.649 --> 03:55:08.610
say that's a tiny fraction of it. Because I wouldn't

03:55:08.610 --> 03:55:10.670
generalize from that. Do you still have personal

03:55:10.670 --> 03:55:13.870
experience with these drugs? No. Are you on any

03:55:13.870 --> 03:55:15.670
kind of medication anymore? Yes, a small amount

03:55:15.670 --> 03:55:18.809
of one medication. What is it? I'm not going

03:55:18.809 --> 03:55:24.790
to discuss that. Okay. No, I don't believe that

03:55:24.790 --> 03:55:27.229
that's... Because these crimes, these particular

03:55:27.229 --> 03:55:29.280
crimes we're talking about... They're a very

03:55:29.280 --> 03:55:31.940
specific kind of crime. No, I'm not saying that

03:55:31.940 --> 03:55:34.379
the drugs cause those crimes. You're saying that

03:55:34.379 --> 03:55:36.819
maybe they dampen the voice of conscience. Yes.

03:55:37.680 --> 03:55:41.280
Or also alleviate the anxiety of committing them.

03:55:41.479 --> 03:55:44.719
Yeah. Alleviate the anxiety of following through

03:55:44.719 --> 03:55:46.479
with something. No, it's not obvious that that's

03:55:46.479 --> 03:55:48.959
the case. If you look at the effect of these

03:55:48.959 --> 03:55:51.120
drugs on motivation and emotion has been pretty

03:55:51.120 --> 03:55:56.120
well delineated. And they do dampen negative

03:55:56.120 --> 03:55:59.879
emotion. But for most depressed people, that's

03:55:59.879 --> 03:56:02.000
really good because they are suffering from a

03:56:02.000 --> 03:56:04.420
pathological excess of negative emotion. And

03:56:04.420 --> 03:56:06.819
some of that does manifest itself in the form

03:56:06.819 --> 03:56:14.540
of harsh, superego -like conscience analogs.

03:56:14.680 --> 03:56:17.420
So here's how a depressed person would think.

03:56:19.399 --> 03:56:21.680
Maybe they have an argument with their wife about

03:56:21.680 --> 03:56:26.420
who's supposed to take out the garbage. Trivial.

03:56:26.840 --> 03:56:30.139
in some sense it's like oh man I didn't take

03:56:30.139 --> 03:56:33.059
out the garbage again I never do anything around

03:56:33.059 --> 03:56:35.459
the house properly that's just an indication

03:56:35.459 --> 03:56:38.260
that I never do anything at all properly people

03:56:38.260 --> 03:56:40.579
who do nothing at all properly they're not very

03:56:40.579 --> 03:56:43.379
good people I've never really been good at that

03:56:43.379 --> 03:56:45.379
sort of thing in the past in the present I'm

03:56:45.379 --> 03:56:47.739
probably going to keep fucking up like this into

03:56:47.739 --> 03:56:51.079
the future I'm a terrible person I should die

03:56:53.280 --> 03:56:56.040
That's too much negative emotion, right? It just

03:56:56.040 --> 03:56:58.940
blows every level out. And they go right from

03:56:58.940 --> 03:57:01.780
the trivial mistake to the suicidal thought.

03:57:02.180 --> 03:57:04.739
And one of the things that antidepressants do

03:57:04.739 --> 03:57:09.819
is bolster their resistance to that propagation

03:57:09.819 --> 03:57:13.479
of catastrophe. Because that's hallmarks of depression.

03:57:13.920 --> 03:57:16.159
And you're talking specifically about SSRIs?

03:57:16.319 --> 03:57:21.420
Yes. Yes. So, no, I don't believe that they...

03:57:22.109 --> 03:57:24.250
There's no evidence, for example, that they make

03:57:24.250 --> 03:57:26.909
psychopaths worse or that they tilt people into

03:57:26.909 --> 03:57:30.389
kind of psychopathic behavior because they decrease

03:57:30.389 --> 03:57:33.430
negative emotion. I know no literature that indicates

03:57:33.430 --> 03:57:35.389
that. And people are very interested in such

03:57:35.389 --> 03:57:37.010
things. It would be studied. Yeah, people are

03:57:37.010 --> 03:57:39.450
interested in that correlation. Yes, but that

03:57:39.450 --> 03:57:42.770
doesn't mean that there's no single person to

03:57:42.770 --> 03:57:46.649
whom that ever happened. Right, got it. But that's

03:57:46.649 --> 03:57:51.590
not a behavioral consequence of SSRIs. Or even

03:57:51.590 --> 03:57:54.010
of serotonin itself. Because then you'd also

03:57:54.010 --> 03:57:57.270
have to say that raising someone's serotonin

03:57:57.270 --> 03:57:59.309
level, which does make them more calm, by the

03:57:59.309 --> 03:58:01.989
way, like less prone to negative emotion, because

03:58:01.989 --> 03:58:04.729
as you move up a hierarchy, you produce more

03:58:04.729 --> 03:58:07.649
serotonin. And the consequence of that is that

03:58:07.649 --> 03:58:11.129
threatening things become less threatening. Well,

03:58:11.190 --> 03:58:12.930
they should, because the higher you are in a

03:58:12.930 --> 03:58:15.889
hierarchy, the less dangerous it is. Right. Right.

03:58:15.889 --> 03:58:19.350
And so... And so partly you can destabilize people

03:58:19.350 --> 03:58:21.110
by threatening their position in the hierarchy

03:58:21.110 --> 03:58:26.090
because you dysregulate the structure. You dysregulate

03:58:26.090 --> 03:58:28.870
their claim to valid occupation of that position.

03:58:29.030 --> 03:58:31.270
And then you destabilize their nervous systems.

03:58:31.489 --> 03:58:35.350
That's partly, say when, let's say, you see this

03:58:35.350 --> 03:58:38.909
in academia. A new, a young faculty member comes

03:58:38.909 --> 03:58:47.930
in for a job talk and lays out his theory. You

03:58:47.930 --> 03:58:50.889
might say, well, the professor on stage gets

03:58:50.889 --> 03:58:53.629
taken aback and is destabilized because his theory

03:58:53.629 --> 03:58:57.069
has been challenged and he uses the theory to

03:58:57.069 --> 03:58:59.409
protect himself against anxiety. It's kind of

03:58:59.409 --> 03:59:02.350
a terror management idea. That isn't what happens.

03:59:02.610 --> 03:59:05.370
Not exactly. It's close, man. It's real close.

03:59:05.790 --> 03:59:08.750
What happens is the young faculty member comes

03:59:08.750 --> 03:59:15.309
in using his claim to valid knowledge as an indicator.

03:59:15.979 --> 03:59:19.680
of his suitability for that position. So I'd

03:59:19.680 --> 03:59:21.899
say, I know a bunch of things that are useful,

03:59:22.079 --> 03:59:25.700
that I can use in trade, and because of that,

03:59:25.760 --> 03:59:31.420
I'm justified in occupying this position. And

03:59:31.420 --> 03:59:35.600
so, then the student stands up and says, you're

03:59:35.600 --> 03:59:39.709
a fraud. You don't deserve that position. And

03:59:39.709 --> 03:59:42.149
it's the specter of the loss of the position,

03:59:42.430 --> 03:59:45.409
the hierarchical position, that's destabilizing,

03:59:45.409 --> 03:59:48.190
not the threat to the integrity of the belief

03:59:48.190 --> 03:59:50.750
system. Now, there can be some of both, right?

03:59:50.909 --> 03:59:54.110
Right. But the reason that people don't like

03:59:54.110 --> 03:59:56.770
to lose faith is because it undermines their

03:59:56.770 --> 04:00:01.010
moral claim to their position. And people hate

04:00:01.010 --> 04:00:04.389
that. And no wonder, because that's a severe

04:00:04.389 --> 04:00:07.709
threat. You're a fraud to have that revealed.

04:00:09.309 --> 04:00:12.350
means that the system could validly take away

04:00:12.350 --> 04:00:16.809
your position. Well, the terror management theorists

04:00:16.809 --> 04:00:19.809
regard your theory as a defense against death

04:00:19.809 --> 04:00:23.870
anxiety. But your position is actually a defense

04:00:23.870 --> 04:00:27.709
against death, not just death anxiety. It's like

04:00:27.709 --> 04:00:31.569
that's your space in the culture. That's why

04:00:31.569 --> 04:00:33.709
people don't stone you. That's why you're a valid

04:00:33.709 --> 04:00:35.590
member of society. That's how you make your living.

04:00:35.770 --> 04:00:38.940
That's not an illusion. That is actually the

04:00:38.940 --> 04:00:41.040
structure that defends you against catastrophe.

04:00:41.659 --> 04:00:44.319
And part of what the mob does is come up to people

04:00:44.319 --> 04:00:46.459
continually, especially from the left, but the

04:00:46.459 --> 04:00:48.700
right can do it too. And they certainly have

04:00:48.700 --> 04:00:51.319
done it, if you look back at any reasonable stretch

04:00:51.319 --> 04:00:55.620
of history. But the left comes up and says, you're

04:00:55.620 --> 04:00:58.440
a white supremacist, racist oppressor, part of

04:00:58.440 --> 04:01:00.899
this patriarchal system. You have no moral claim

04:01:00.899 --> 04:01:04.680
whatsoever to the position you occupy. Well,

04:01:04.719 --> 04:01:06.850
that just strips people, you know. Especially

04:01:06.850 --> 04:01:10.649
if they're good people. They think, oh, I need

04:01:10.649 --> 04:01:13.030
a moral claim to this position. Well, it's also

04:01:13.030 --> 04:01:15.030
often disingenuous because all they're trying

04:01:15.030 --> 04:01:17.770
to do is silence you. All they're trying to do

04:01:17.770 --> 04:01:19.709
is defuse you. No, no. They're also trying to

04:01:19.709 --> 04:01:22.209
hurt and destroy you. Destroy you. But they're

04:01:22.209 --> 04:01:26.489
also trying to stop you from being a valid member

04:01:26.489 --> 04:01:28.809
of the conversation. Oh, definitely. And they're

04:01:28.809 --> 04:01:30.709
trying to undermine the idea of merit itself

04:01:30.709 --> 04:01:32.870
because maybe they're not living particularly

04:01:32.870 --> 04:01:36.319
meritorious lives. And so the light shines. on

04:01:36.319 --> 04:01:38.899
them in their darkness. Yes, most likely. Yeah,

04:01:38.940 --> 04:01:43.639
yeah. We are four hours in here. So I think we

04:01:43.639 --> 04:01:46.159
should probably wrap this bad boy up and bring

04:01:46.159 --> 04:01:49.340
it home. Tell everybody where they can, your

04:01:49.340 --> 04:01:51.700
website is jordanpeterson .com. jordanbpeterson

04:01:51.700 --> 04:01:53.360
.com. jordanbpeterson .com. Yeah, and you can

04:01:53.360 --> 04:01:57.399
look up the essay app at essay .app or on my

04:01:57.399 --> 04:02:00.549
website. If you go to my website, you can find

04:02:00.549 --> 04:02:02.569
my list of recommended books. There's 100 there.

04:02:03.209 --> 04:02:04.610
Don't tweet it, Jordan, because he's not going

04:02:04.610 --> 04:02:08.069
to read it, right? Yeah, I hope not. Yeah, I

04:02:08.069 --> 04:02:11.510
hope not. And your podcast is still available

04:02:11.510 --> 04:02:13.969
on YouTube. Yeah, and Spotify. And Spotify. Yeah.

04:02:14.250 --> 04:02:17.139
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's lots of good

04:02:17.139 --> 04:02:19.340
discussions on YouTube. If you like long -form

04:02:19.340 --> 04:02:21.420
discussions, I find people that I want to talk

04:02:21.420 --> 04:02:24.440
to, and they'll say yes, and then we have as

04:02:24.440 --> 04:02:26.659
interesting a conversation as I can manage, and

04:02:26.659 --> 04:02:29.940
maybe I share that with Joe, and that's our intent.

04:02:30.479 --> 04:02:33.059
Yes. And it is our intent, and it's a pleasure

04:02:33.059 --> 04:02:34.840
and a privilege to do it, and we try to live

04:02:34.840 --> 04:02:38.840
up to that responsibility. And thank you, man.

04:02:39.059 --> 04:02:41.200
Thank you. It's so good to see you. Always. Always

04:02:41.200 --> 04:02:43.139
good to see you. Looking forward to dinner, too.

04:02:43.239 --> 04:02:46.860
And also. Congratulations on your success. Thank

04:02:46.860 --> 04:02:50.600
you. I've had senior political figures in Canada

04:02:50.600 --> 04:02:56.559
now tell me this is so awful that they cannot

04:02:56.559 --> 04:03:00.100
say what they have to say in our current political

04:03:00.100 --> 04:03:05.399
situation because they cannot find a single media

04:03:05.399 --> 04:03:08.620
source in the entire country that they regard

04:03:08.620 --> 04:03:12.350
as trustworthy and reliable. And these aren't

04:03:12.350 --> 04:03:14.750
fringe political figures. These are people who've

04:03:14.750 --> 04:03:17.770
had stellar political careers. And that's what

04:03:17.770 --> 04:03:21.569
they tell me, point blank. And the same thing

04:03:21.569 --> 04:03:25.370
is happening in the United States. And you're

04:03:25.370 --> 04:03:28.709
an antidote to that. All by yourself. I know

04:03:28.709 --> 04:03:31.170
you have help. I know you have help. And you

04:03:31.170 --> 04:03:33.790
have people around you. But it's a testament

04:03:33.790 --> 04:03:40.649
to your integrity, man. And good for you. It's

04:03:40.649 --> 04:03:46.690
something. So keep it up. I will. It's something.

04:03:48.569 --> 04:03:51.909
It's an odd place, man. I know. It's all by accident.

04:03:52.010 --> 04:03:53.809
That's the oddest part about it. Yeah, well,

04:03:53.909 --> 04:03:57.149
sort of. I know. It's not by design, but it's

04:03:57.149 --> 04:04:01.010
not by accident. Well, being where I am is by

04:04:01.010 --> 04:04:03.870
accident. Yeah, that is by accident. It is not

04:04:03.870 --> 04:04:08.459
by design. It is by accident. I could not have

04:04:08.459 --> 04:04:12.780
imagined a world where just talking to people

04:04:12.780 --> 04:04:16.760
about whatever subject matter is their area of

04:04:16.760 --> 04:04:19.139
expertise and asking questions and being curious

04:04:19.139 --> 04:04:22.620
could be that popular. It's very strange. Yeah,

04:04:22.659 --> 04:04:24.239
but wouldn't it be something if that was the

04:04:24.239 --> 04:04:28.780
way it is? Yeah. Well, it wouldn't be so unique

04:04:28.780 --> 04:04:32.760
then. Or maybe there'd be just more unique everywhere.

04:04:33.469 --> 04:04:36.110
That would be nice. Yeah, yeah. Everybody else,

04:04:36.129 --> 04:04:39.469
pick up the slack. Yeah, well, I've had visions

04:04:39.469 --> 04:04:41.290
of that sort of thing, you know, is that we're

04:04:41.290 --> 04:04:43.629
each called to a unique destiny, and it's not

04:04:43.629 --> 04:04:46.750
unique. It's like, well, the world's inexhaustible,

04:04:46.750 --> 04:04:49.110
and so we could each have a unique destiny. Well,

04:04:49.209 --> 04:04:51.229
one thing that does happen, that I hope does

04:04:51.229 --> 04:04:55.389
happen, and I didn't mean to set out to create

04:04:55.389 --> 04:04:58.030
a kind of a format or to pioneer a kind of a

04:04:58.030 --> 04:05:01.170
format, but what I do hope is that the people

04:05:01.170 --> 04:05:04.549
who enjoy it, and I know this is the case, they're

04:05:04.549 --> 04:05:07.370
starting to do their own thing that's similar.

04:05:07.569 --> 04:05:11.569
You bet. I've met some unbelievably impressive

04:05:11.569 --> 04:05:14.090
young men who are doing this, and one of the

04:05:14.090 --> 04:05:16.329
things that just stuns me about interacting with

04:05:16.329 --> 04:05:20.010
them is that they're very articulate. They don't

04:05:20.010 --> 04:05:22.170
say like, they don't say you know, they don't

04:05:22.170 --> 04:05:25.469
say um. They weigh their words. They're witty.

04:05:25.569 --> 04:05:28.750
They listen intently, and they're aiming up.

04:05:29.159 --> 04:05:31.739
And they're just lights. It's like, oh, man,

04:05:31.840 --> 04:05:33.639
you're going places. You're going places. Well,

04:05:33.639 --> 04:05:37.340
intellectual curiosity is now, because I think

04:05:37.340 --> 04:05:40.440
of long -form podcasts, it's attractive where

04:05:40.440 --> 04:05:44.540
it was thought of as something akin to daydreaming

04:05:44.540 --> 04:05:46.819
or mental masturbation. Impractical. You bet.

04:05:47.079 --> 04:05:49.899
Effect intellectualism. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

04:05:50.040 --> 04:05:52.940
It's the opposite of that, man. It is in many

04:05:52.940 --> 04:05:55.180
ways the opposite of that, and it's also a viable

04:05:55.180 --> 04:05:58.079
opportunity for a career. Yeah. And all you have

04:05:58.079 --> 04:06:00.469
to do. is be interesting. Yeah. It's the only

04:06:00.469 --> 04:06:02.989
opportunity for a career in any real sense because

04:06:02.989 --> 04:06:06.090
even if I tried to teach a friend of mine this

04:06:06.090 --> 04:06:10.770
and he eventually committed suicide for a variety

04:06:10.770 --> 04:06:14.389
of reasons and he managed it now and then but

04:06:14.389 --> 04:06:18.709
finally was overcome by his own, by the demons

04:06:18.709 --> 04:06:23.110
that possessed him, let's say. You know, he was

04:06:23.110 --> 04:06:25.950
a very smart man but he hadn't made much of his

04:06:25.950 --> 04:06:28.760
education and so he was in positions he felt

04:06:28.760 --> 04:06:32.139
were beneath him. And I tried to tell him that

04:06:32.139 --> 04:06:36.620
the idea that those positions were beneath him

04:06:36.620 --> 04:06:40.020
was his own blindness. Because there was an infinite

04:06:40.020 --> 04:06:43.239
amount of possibility everywhere. So like I worked

04:06:43.239 --> 04:06:45.260
in restaurants and I had lots of working class

04:06:45.260 --> 04:06:48.860
jobs, like 30 of them, like lots. And I really

04:06:48.860 --> 04:06:50.600
liked working in restaurants. I was a dishwasher.

04:06:51.020 --> 04:06:53.979
I loved it once I got good at it. And the reason

04:06:53.979 --> 04:06:57.379
I loved it is I was a kid, 14. I got treated

04:06:57.379 --> 04:06:59.940
as an adult because I worked hard, you know,

04:06:59.940 --> 04:07:03.000
and I loved that, man. That was so great to be

04:07:03.000 --> 04:07:05.159
treated as an adult, a legitimate contributor.

04:07:05.459 --> 04:07:08.899
You bet, you bet. And then because I worked hard

04:07:08.899 --> 04:07:11.979
and was interested, the cook in the first restaurant

04:07:11.979 --> 04:07:13.799
who was a German chef, he taught me to cook.

04:07:14.879 --> 04:07:17.280
It's like, then I was a short order cook and

04:07:17.280 --> 04:07:19.600
I was like 15. And so that was really fun because

04:07:19.600 --> 04:07:21.739
it was fun to work in the kitchen and the place

04:07:21.739 --> 04:07:24.780
was full of jokes and tricks all the time. And

04:07:24.780 --> 04:07:27.090
I learned how to cook and I learned how to, handle

04:07:27.090 --> 04:07:29.229
the domestic environment and clean and put things

04:07:29.229 --> 04:07:32.469
in order but also to work with people and I had

04:07:32.469 --> 04:07:34.870
really good friendships with those people and

04:07:34.870 --> 04:07:38.069
that fostered all sorts of opportunities for

04:07:38.069 --> 04:07:40.329
me there was an infinite amount of possibility

04:07:40.329 --> 04:07:44.010
in that dishwashing job because I wasn't just

04:07:44.010 --> 04:07:47.110
I wasn't in a bloody box with people pushing

04:07:47.110 --> 04:07:49.930
dishes in through a slot I was in this dynamic

04:07:49.930 --> 04:07:53.959
environment where people were trying to Be hospitable,

04:07:54.100 --> 04:07:56.719
which is really, really hard, you know, on a

04:07:56.719 --> 04:07:58.959
mass scale under a lot of pressure, because restaurants

04:07:58.959 --> 04:08:01.079
can be high -pressure jobs because of the rushes

04:08:01.079 --> 04:08:04.219
that go with it. There was everything in the

04:08:04.219 --> 04:08:07.079
world was in that restaurant. If you had eyes

04:08:07.079 --> 04:08:10.219
to see it, like dozens of my friends, I think

04:08:10.219 --> 04:08:12.819
it was literally dozens, came to that restaurant

04:08:12.819 --> 04:08:16.639
to get a job as a dishwasher, and every single

04:08:16.639 --> 04:08:21.639
one of them quit. So it's like they were in the

04:08:21.639 --> 04:08:25.020
same restaurant. Yeah. I had a very similar experience

04:08:25.020 --> 04:08:27.159
when I was young. I worked at a place called

04:08:27.159 --> 04:08:30.219
Newport Creamery. I was a short order cook. Yeah.

04:08:30.940 --> 04:08:35.540
Did you like it? Yeah. I enjoyed it. I made friends

04:08:35.540 --> 04:08:37.840
with the people that worked there and hung out

04:08:37.840 --> 04:08:39.799
with them. We had fun times together. And it

04:08:39.799 --> 04:08:42.590
was also like it taught you that. You know, like

04:08:42.590 --> 04:08:44.809
you had a long shift. Yeah. It taught you the

04:08:44.809 --> 04:08:47.049
value of hard work. There was something to it.

04:08:47.110 --> 04:08:50.309
Yeah. Scrubbing the grill and, you know, all

04:08:50.309 --> 04:08:51.969
the shit that you had to do and clean up before

04:08:51.969 --> 04:08:52.750
you could leave for the night. Yeah, because

04:08:52.750 --> 04:08:56.469
I was little, man. I was little. The bartender

04:08:56.469 --> 04:08:58.450
from next door, I was really mouthy, and he'd

04:08:58.450 --> 04:09:00.479
come over now and then. He'd say something and

04:09:00.479 --> 04:09:02.940
I'd mouth off in some like spectacularly horrible

04:09:02.940 --> 04:09:05.620
way. And he used to stuff me in the ice machine

04:09:05.620 --> 04:09:07.979
and I could fit. It was so annoying because I

04:09:07.979 --> 04:09:09.799
could hardly get out, you know. But they also

04:09:09.799 --> 04:09:14.079
used to drop me behind the big grill and to clean

04:09:14.079 --> 04:09:16.319
out the grease behind it. Like that's one filthy

04:09:16.319 --> 04:09:18.520
job, man. That's a filthy job. And I was the

04:09:18.520 --> 04:09:21.780
only one who could fit. And so I was off. Yeah,

04:09:21.940 --> 04:09:24.120
yeah. So, but it needed to be cleaned. There's

04:09:24.120 --> 04:09:26.600
value in shitty jobs. There really is. There's

04:09:26.600 --> 04:09:29.239
value in struggle. You learn. You learn and then

04:09:29.239 --> 04:09:30.940
it sucks at the time. Well, and you know, those

04:09:30.940 --> 04:09:34.620
working class jobs, they were fun in a way. Now,

04:09:34.680 --> 04:09:37.520
I had fun with my colleagues at Harvard. They

04:09:37.520 --> 04:09:40.600
were fun. They'd joke. We had fun in our faculty

04:09:40.600 --> 04:09:41.700
meetings. That was back when you were allowed

04:09:41.700 --> 04:09:44.260
to joke? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I liked those

04:09:44.260 --> 04:09:45.979
meetings because the faculty at Harvard at that

04:09:45.979 --> 04:09:48.020
time, at the 90s, they had a good attitude towards

04:09:48.020 --> 04:09:50.299
meetings. That was pre -internet. That's why.

04:09:50.420 --> 04:09:53.450
It was like... We're here to get this done as

04:09:53.450 --> 04:09:55.209
fast as we possibly can. And if you have something

04:09:55.209 --> 04:09:57.409
intelligent, say it. And if you're funny, that's

04:09:57.409 --> 04:09:59.049
okay too. But otherwise, shut up. And if you

04:09:59.049 --> 04:10:00.530
object, we'll put you on a committee and you

04:10:00.530 --> 04:10:02.549
can do the work outside the meeting. I bet it's

04:10:02.549 --> 04:10:04.190
a lot different now. It certainly might be. I

04:10:04.190 --> 04:10:05.709
bet there's a lot of self -indulgent nonsense

04:10:05.709 --> 04:10:09.040
going on. Ellen Langer was there at the time.

04:10:09.059 --> 04:10:11.120
She was a famous social psychologist, and she

04:10:11.120 --> 04:10:14.739
had a vicious wit. And Ellen's role was the meeting

04:10:14.739 --> 04:10:16.079
would progress, and then she'd say something

04:10:16.079 --> 04:10:18.340
completely outrageous, and everyone would laugh,

04:10:18.459 --> 04:10:19.819
and then we'd have the meeting some more, and

04:10:19.819 --> 04:10:21.819
then she'd say something else completely outrageous.

04:10:22.040 --> 04:10:24.340
And there was a real sense of humor. And among

04:10:24.340 --> 04:10:27.280
my colleagues, Jill Hooley and Richard McNally

04:10:27.280 --> 04:10:31.159
and Brendan Marr, who knew Timothy Leary, we

04:10:31.159 --> 04:10:34.420
had meetings of the Personality and Psychopathology

04:10:34.420 --> 04:10:37.989
Subdivision. It was really fun. It was fun. And

04:10:37.989 --> 04:10:40.149
I didn't experience that much in the intellectual

04:10:40.149 --> 04:10:42.530
realm once I was a faculty member, but I did

04:10:42.530 --> 04:10:45.569
there. But in those working class jobs, like

04:10:45.569 --> 04:10:49.409
that humor and camaraderie. Gets people through.

04:10:49.610 --> 04:10:53.250
Yeah, well, and it's so core to it. And it elevates

04:10:53.250 --> 04:10:57.110
the entire experience beyond the relative basicness

04:10:57.110 --> 04:11:01.209
of the job. Yes, for sure. And when I look back

04:11:01.209 --> 04:11:04.090
on my adolescent life. There wasn't a lot to

04:11:04.090 --> 04:11:06.770
do in this small town when it was 40 below for

04:11:06.770 --> 04:11:11.209
like three months of the year. And a lot of what

04:11:11.209 --> 04:11:13.510
we did was pretty dissolute. A lot of those teenage

04:11:13.510 --> 04:11:16.770
parties were pretty goddamn dim places, you know,

04:11:16.790 --> 04:11:19.469
in the dark, the music so loud no one could talk,

04:11:19.569 --> 04:11:23.030
everybody too drunk, kind of nihilistic to the

04:11:23.030 --> 04:11:28.889
core, a lot of drugs, not so fun. But going to

04:11:28.889 --> 04:11:33.610
work, that was fun. It gave you purpose. And

04:11:33.610 --> 04:11:37.450
it gave me a community of productivity, you know?

04:11:37.629 --> 04:11:41.809
So that was good. And that's there in front of

04:11:41.809 --> 04:11:44.229
you. You have a lowly job. It's like this. Hey,

04:11:44.290 --> 04:11:47.049
man, people are boring. Everyone I talk to is

04:11:47.049 --> 04:11:50.969
so boring. It's like... Maybe it's you. No, no.

04:11:51.170 --> 04:11:53.870
For sure it's you. If you listen to people, I

04:11:53.870 --> 04:11:55.829
learned this in my clinical practice. If you

04:11:55.829 --> 04:11:59.229
listen to people, they are so goddamn interesting.

04:12:00.079 --> 04:12:02.739
You can hardly even stand it. And so if you're

04:12:02.739 --> 04:12:05.680
surrounded by people who are dull, try listening

04:12:05.680 --> 04:12:09.319
more. They start telling you their story? People

04:12:09.319 --> 04:12:13.620
are so weird. Even so -called simple people,

04:12:13.680 --> 04:12:16.200
it's like, think people are simple, you try building

04:12:16.200 --> 04:12:19.180
one. They're not so simple. Even people that,

04:12:19.200 --> 04:12:22.340
you know, wouldn't register in some sense on

04:12:22.340 --> 04:12:25.040
any normal social barometer, you sit one of those

04:12:25.040 --> 04:12:28.540
people down and you have them tell you their

04:12:28.540 --> 04:12:31.579
life story? Oh, my God. It's so interesting that

04:12:31.579 --> 04:12:34.719
it's like it's traumatically interesting. I got

04:12:34.719 --> 04:12:36.319
to wrap this up. All right, man. I'm very sorry.

04:12:37.239 --> 04:12:39.680
Oh, you gave me four hours, Joe. It was a lot

04:12:39.680 --> 04:12:42.459
of fun. More. Four and 15 minutes now. All right.

04:12:42.459 --> 04:12:44.000
Thank you, Jordan. I appreciate you very much.

04:12:44.139 --> 04:12:46.399
Hey. Thank you. Your feelings be true. All right.

04:12:46.459 --> 04:12:47.639
Bye, everybody. See you.