Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #2440. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Cinema Industry Evolution, Storytelling Ethics, and Global Media Trends in 2026 Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan
Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan Podcast by
night. All day. That's wild. I went in because
I came in from Miami. I think I was leaving at
the time. And I went in and... And I'm sitting
in the waiting room and it was like on a Sunday
because it was, I was like, I'm only in town
for you. And Stan was like, I'll come into the
office. I'm like, thank you so much. I had to
have some, a filling or whatever I needed. It's
a kind of an emergency. So I'm sitting in the
thing and, and I'm not getting called in, but
the ladies just, no, no, there's not even a receptionist.
And Stan comes out with his mask on. No, the
first thing I hear is, pig fucker, fucking cock
sucker, fucking pig fucker. And I'm like, what
is happening in there? It's in the other room.
And Stan comes in with his max on. He goes, sorry.
He goes, I'll be with you soon. He goes, I got
Hunter in the chair. And he goes back. And I
hear, listen to Hunter Thompson swear for like
15 minutes. I'm like, this is amazing. And then
Stan goes, okay, come on back. And Hunter's kind
of getting out. And he goes, oh, you're sitting
down with this guy? He's a fucking assassin.
And then he goes, and he's got this jug of clear
fluid. And he's like, you're going to need a
sip of this. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is
fucking Hunter S. Thompson's moonshine. I'm like,
this is fucking amazing. I'm talking to this
dude for 30 seconds and I'm getting a sip. And
it was like 10 in the morning on a Sunday. Yeah.
He was halfway through the jug. Where was this?
In Beverly Hills. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Brentwood.
Yeah, Brentwood was Stan's office. Oh, my God.
That's amazing. It really was amazing. So I had
probably a total of seven minutes, you know,
with him. And it was like I could not have been
a better seven minutes. That's incredible. I
went to the Woody Creek Tavern just to go there
because I know he used to go there. And, like,
you could, like, feel him in the building. You
know, there's all the pictures on the walls.
It's a cool little place. I mean, those books,
fucking Hell's Angels and, you know, Fear and
Loathing, it's some of the best writing. I just
fucking, like, he really had his own voice. Rum
Diary, spectacular. You know, it was, like, really
descriptive and punchy and fucking interesting
and fucked up. And he also just lived that life.
Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like, reading
that book was like. What the fuck? Like, what
is this guy doing? There's grown men out there.
Balding, grown men with spectacles running around
with them. There's lizards in the fucking lounge.
He's got a day trip bag filled with acid. Like,
what the fuck are you doing, man? And it's great
shit. It's like you fucking feel like you're
on the adventure with him, you know? Yeah. No,
it's interesting to watch the evolution of his
writing, too. You know, like, I read Hell's Angels,
and it's, like, very different. Yeah, it's early,
he's kind of restrained, and he was quite, like,
for that, I think it was edgy, sort of, for the
time. Yeah. Like, oh, you're going to get beaten,
chain -whipped, and stomped by the angels, and
that was really edgy. And by the time they got
into, what, A Sphere of Loneliness, 72, or something
like that, he was just out there. Yeah, he was
gone. He found his voice. He did find his voice.
He was supposed to be covering a race for, like,
Sports Illustrated. That's a fear and loathing
when I read a book about how I fucking lost my
mind. Great. It's great, Hunter. We'll take it.
Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys. I've
met you before, but it's very nice to meet you.
It's a pleasure, man. Thank you very much. I
love the fucking movie. The rip is great. It's
really good. It's so original, and it's so different,
and it's, you know, it's like I love those kinds.
but it's not like any one that I've ever seen
before. Really solid movie. Thanks, dude. Thank
you. It was awesome. So much better than you
hating it. The interviews where they're like,
so I saw the movie. Anyway, how you guys been?
We've had a lot of those. The press junkets where
they come in and the first thing that you know
the movie sucks. If they don't ask you anything
about the movie, they come in and they go, so
how you been? And you're like, oh, shit. This
is going to be bad. Is it weird? The transformation
of the film industry seems like a lot of it is
moving towards these big streaming movies now.
absolutely i mean look it's because where most
people have gone to watch them yeah like used
to be the only place you'd go see movies in the
40s like every american with the movie every
week basically but it was because it was that
or watch the cows walk by you know that was the
only and then tv comes around it's little and
you see these little cereals But, you know, what
happened was now this is why it's totally changed
the whole thing because you have 300 million
people, 330, whatever it is, watching, you know,
Netflix. And it's a lot harder to get people
to go into the movies. There's also YouTube.
There's also TikTok. There's also my kids. Like,
it's hard to get them excited about a movie.
Yeah. That's what we had. I mean. Yeah, that
was our. I mean, our teen years were just every
weekend we're at the movies. Yeah. There's just
no question about it. You were going to go and
usually not get into one because there were too
many people. And then you just see what else
is playing and go to that. Well, it seems like
it was kind of slipping away because so many
people were watching streaming already. And then
COVID came around and everyone was locked down
and no one was going to the movie theater. I
had this drama that was coming out right when
COVID hit. I really liked the movie, performance
movie. It's about an alcoholic guy whose kid
dies and becomes an alcoholic. It's a dark movie,
but I loved it. And I could tell, like, we're
fucked. No one's going to go to the theater to
see this movie. And it wasn't even that streaming
really blew up, of course, during COVID. So,
you know, look, they rushed it onto streaming.
People actually saw it. I was like, look, all
things being equal, I'd like people to see it,
you know? And it's not like... My dad had an
11 -inch black -and -white TV, and that's what
was TV viewing. Now it's like $200. You've got
a fucking 65 -inch flat screen and good sound.
So, of course, people are willing to. And then
streamers also started making great shows. You
have Adolescence. I think that's one of the best
things ever done. I haven't seen Adolescence.
It's unbelievable. What is it? Oh, my God. I
don't want to spoil too much of it. It's only
four episodes. They're all one shot. They're
all one shot. Each episode is one entire shot.
Whoa. So the cast, they took a. I talked to the
director about it. The cast took, I think, a
week to rehearse each one and then a week to
shoot it. And so they do it twice a day. It's
the full hour they would choreograph the entire
thing. It's a feat on itself. Yeah, it's really.
And then the acting is great. But that's, I mean,
just dismiss that. You could even call it a gimmick.
It's not in this case. The performances and the
writing and what it's about, it's as good as
anything you'll see. It's phenomenal. What is
it on? Netflix. It's not even an anomaly. There's
Baby Rangers, there's fucking Succession, there's
Game of Thrones, Ozarks. It's just like, okay,
well, they're doing great shit out there. It's
not like the sort of implied thing before was
like, yeah, well, TV's not as good, not as interesting.
When we started, there was a different... Like
George Clooney, for instance, there was a big
thing. He very famously became this superstar
on ER. That show, 40 million people a week were
watching that show. It was the biggest thing,
right? because there were only a few channels
to tune into, and that show was the biggest one.
And George never renegotiated his contract. He
wanted to work in movies, and it was like, you
can't go from TV to movies. It's very hard. Very
few people can do it. And he really... strategically
and kind of patiently like he joked that on the
last episode he was on Anthony Edwards you know
his co -star was making a million bucks for the
episode and he was making you know 20 grand or
whatever his deal was like he could have renegotiated
but he would have had to give more years that's
how bad he wanted to get off TV right that's
how bad he wanted to get off the biggest TV show
in the world because there was such a big kind
of level change between features and TV. Well,
it was a giant difference in quality. It was
also the breaking it up for commercials. It was
just a different experience. There's all these
rules. You can't say this, you can't do that,
you can't swear, you can't have violence and
nudity, all the things people want to see in
movies. and also it wasn't it wasn't as interesting
and then now that's a tethered to these schedules
and all the stuff whereas you get this like you
don't have a schedule and and you can take a
bunch of risks so and that started happening
And then it was kind of like, well, this all
is just as good, if not better, than what's in
the movies. Well, then movies started to move
towards more IP. Because it was hard to get people
to come to the movies, everyone got scared and
thought, well, it has to be a sequel or a superhero
movie. And so an interesting little movie, kind
of in the 90s when we kind of came onto the scene,
there were a lot of really good independent movies
that were being made. It was a really great time
to be making movies. People were making daring
movies. And then everyone just got way more conservative
because it's huge. Like the business is so different
theatrically and streaming because to put out
a movie theatrically, you have to put so much
more money behind it to publicize. Like you're
trying to get everybody. You're basically spending
about what the budget was to make it to advertise
it. And you get 50 % of the theatrical. Yeah,
because you split it with the movie house, right?
So a $25 million movie to break in, you've got
to make $100 million. And you've got to get everybody
to not only know about the movie, but to show
up that Friday night, that specific time for
that specific movie, and to cut through all the
noise that people are contending with. It just
becomes about risk. Nobody wants to take the
risk, so they don't want to make something new
because it's such an investment and we're going
to lose all our fucking money. And the streamers
have stepped into that. You don't have to necessarily
have a star. You could try something more interesting
or it didn't have to be a superhero movie, whatever
it was. and also i think it's like you know frankly
like people my age like it's first of all it's
expensive right you take your whole family it's
100 you're on a streaming service 20 a month
you can watch all you want so you can't be cavalier
about like you're just gonna price it however
the you want and expect everyone to like be indifferent
to that and then you know also you know, the
idea of, like, for me, you know, there's a lot
of stuff. I make that decision. Like, do I want
to see The Odyssey on a big screen? Fucking def.
I went to a theater to just watch the trailer
for that movie. And, you know, at one battle
after another, I wanted to go see in the theater.
But there's movies with people that I really
like and respect where, yeah, and I got a good
system and shit, but I'm like, look, I'll watch
it and I might get tired or I won't pause it
and take a piss or the kids, you know, whatever
it is. that's conducive to my lifestyle, you
know? And so I even see a few. I think most people
are, yeah. But there is the experience of seeing
it with a bunch of other people and seeing an
awesome movie with a bunch of other people. It's
like a shared experience. A hundred percent.
I always like an attention. Way more attention.
Like when I went to see one battle on IMAX, like,
you know, that feeling, there's nothing like
that feeling. I took, you know, two of my kids
and two of my nephews and my wife and we all
went and it was just, it was like, and you're
in with. You know, a bunch of strangers, people
in your community, and you're having this experience
together. I always say it's more like going to
church. Like you show up at an appointed time.
You know what I mean? It doesn't wait for you.
Versus the experience of watching at home, I
think. You know, you're watching in a room. The
lights are on. Other shit's going on. The kids
are running around. The dogs are running around.
Whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just
a very different level of attention that you're
willing to get. or that you're able to give to
it. And that has a big effect. And it also ends
up having an effect or is starting to have an
effect on how you make movies. Like for instance,
Netflix, you know, standard way to make an action
movie that we learned was, you know, you usually
have like three set pieces, one in the first
act, one in the second, one in the third. And,
you know, you kind of, they kind of ramp up and
the big one with all the explosions and you spend
most of your money on that one in the third act.
That's your kind of finale. And now they're like,
can we get a big one in the first five minutes
to get somebody? We want people to stay tuned
in. And it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated
the plot three or four times in the dialogue
because people are on their phones while they're
watching. You know what I mean? And so then it's
going to really start to infringe on. Creatively.
Yeah, how we're telling the story. But then you
look at adolescence, it didn't do any of that
shit. It didn't do any of that. And it was fucking
great. You know what I mean? So I think it's
dark, too. It's tragic and intense. It's like
a guy who finds out these kids accused of murder,
and it's like, you know, and there's long shots
in the back of their head. They get in the car.
Nobody says anything. I think there are those,
look, these ideas. I wish that were there. It
feels more like the exception. It's so. masterfully
made that it feels a little more like the except
I hope it's not my feeling is just that it demonstrates
that you don't need to do any of that shit to
get people you know what I mean like and I think
you know yes you know like look at the town at
the action scene in the beginning the first five
minutes because you know what I mean like it's
a it's a common trick that you would go like
let me grab them and get them invested in it's
like the movies that start with the hero hanging
from the cliff and now we're gonna flash back
to the beginning and tell you how they got there
It's, you know, I always feel like, you know,
complaining about it makes me feel like one of
these guys was like, when I was a boy, like,
you always want to freeze the culture at the
time when you, I don't know, felt more like,
you know, we didn't used to have these phones.
The fuck are all these phones? And everybody's
looking at their phone. I get it. Yes, it's true.
Also, it's like supplying demand. People want
to look at their phone. They can look at TikTok.
They want, you know, they're going to do that.
I think what you can do is make shit the best
you can. Make it really good. And, you know.
People can still go to the movies. It's not like,
I think we have this idea that it's like an existential
threat. Everything that comes along is going
to destroy everything. Instead of like, what
history suggests is that there's like marginal
encroachments, things shift. Yep, as television
came along, there was less theater going. That's
still going to happen. And people are still going
to go to the movies because of what you said.
Like, it feels like a cool thing to do. I'm going
to go see The Odyssey. I guarantee you, in a
theater, you know, no matter what. Fewer of them.
You could argue that's because I have more choice
or whatever it is. It's hard to fight supply
and demand. That's the trick. Right. If people
want to watch a bunch of stuff at home because
they invested in TVs and cost us money, they
will. So, OK. But the upside of that is like
I can try to do something. Hopefully that's like
that actually doesn't need to, you know, have
the most urgency to get you to come to the theater
with your family. That's a little more experimental
or risk taking or whatever in that way. Well,
you got to adapt. I mean, there's no way you're
going to change people's viewing habits now.
I mean, what percentage of Netflix is actually
watched on phones? It's got to be pretty high,
which is insane. Even watching on a laptop for
me is kind of like, kind of sucks. Yeah, it sucks.
joke that i like to make with every director
i work with like when they're really puzzling
over a shot or really grinding out something
i go you know it's not gonna look as good on
the phone just everyone gets angry no that's
gonna look great this fucking bigs but keep fucking
around and lighting that wall it is weird though
the the concern for the algorithm like making
sure that people watch like look we've got data
that shows within the first five minutes when
this happens they tune out so let's like my buddy
tony henchcliffe yeah he's got kill Tony and
now it's on Netflix. And so they're giving them
notes now and they can give him like, but they're
not telling him what to do, but they're saying
like, this is when people are tuning out. And
so let's, you know, just so you have that data
now decide how you want to edit things. That's
like, Oh yeah. It is because, because the, it's
like the, the bar for, for walking out of a movie
theater is a lot higher than from just changing
the channel. Right. And oftentimes, you know,
directors will want to make a movie that is challenging
and upsetting. And I remember Terry Kinney, my
friend, great actor, and he told me about the
experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New York
for the first time, right, in 76 or whenever
it came out. And he said... What I remember is
not only the movie, but I remember standing at
the back because I had got up. I got up out of
my seat and I went, but I couldn't bring myself
to leave because I was so invested. He goes,
I was standing at the back by the door watching
the movie. And he goes, and there were two other
people standing next to me who were doing the
same thing. Just because they were disturbed?
Because the movie was disturbing them so much.
Wow. Which is not a bad thing, right? Right.
So had that been on Netflix or Amazon, if somebody
goes, oh, I'm disturbed, and they change the
channel. Yeah. Like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't
make Taxi Driver. Right, that's true. Like, the
investment of going to a place is much greater.
Yeah, and one of the values of that is that you
could look at movies from the 70s and 80s, the
first act was 25, 30 minutes. Right. You know,
The Verdict, for instance, is a great movie.
It takes a long time to get going. Look at The
Deer Hunter. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's...
And you're right. Like what you're saying, the
threshold for walkout is real. Like any scene,
like, ah, I want to watch Naked and Alone. You
know, you flip the fucking. So you are battling
that. I watched Le Mans the other night. steve
mcqueen and there's no one talks for like five
minutes there's no talking it's just a bunch
of stuff getting done yeah just a bunch of people
doing things and it's like wow you could make
a difference you could let it air out back then
yeah it was they had a different respect for
what it was like you were telling a story and
you're gonna let it air out Well, they also knew
where their audience was. They were in a theater.
Part of it was they wanted to come there. I mean,
the great story I like is the first time they
debuted a movie, guys with a projector in a room
full of people. It was a movie of a train pulling
into the station. So they put the reel up, and
they did the demonstration, and they showed the
people, and everybody missed it because they
were turned around staring at the projector.
They've never fucking seen anything like that.
You know, it's like the technology's upstaging.
But, like, you come for an event. Come for a
thing. We're all going to be here. That's part
of it. It's, I don't know. There's competing
arguments. You can think, well, what do you get
to do? And some people just go ahead and fuck
it. Like, Jim Cameron's Avatar. I'm going to
make my three -hour movie, and people are going
to come. And great. You know what I mean? And
people say, oh, well, you can't have a three
-hour movie. He's like, well, I'm Jim Cameron,
and I've actually got the number one and two
in movies. I think I got this. He goes ahead
and does it. History is full of people who got
told a bunch of conventional wisdom and were
like, yeah, but we're going to do something different.
And as it turns out, that's actually what people
want, too, is not for you to just repeat the
other shit that's been done before or worked
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One of the things I read that I thought was really
fucking cool is you guys set it up so that if
this film performs well, the entire crew gets
bonuses. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Hopefully
it's successful. I think it's going to shit.
It's a fucking great movie, man. It's a fun movie.
But it's good, but it's not like, you know, fucking
we're saints or philanthropists. Like, it's completely
self -serving, in my opinion, because in order
to do the job well. Everybody who's working on
it has to be really invested and give a shit
about the result, not their paycheck only. And
sometimes you're with a crew that just happen
to be great anyway, even though they don't really
have to care about it, and they do. And what
we saw was, like, that makes your movie better.
And then there's just the thing of, like, the
business is changing. You see these strikes and
work stops and all these fucking questions. In
order for this, I think, to survive and to be,
you know, a good middle -class fucking artist.
you know, artisanal craftsman job. We've got
1 ,200 people that, you know, need to have reliable
jobs. And part of the negotiations is always
like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all going to
get fucked. Like, we have no participation. Like,
we used to work on movies, and it happens to
actors too, where you go, oh, we all invested,
it was really hard, and we fucking put in the
extra effort. Somebody else walked away. with
all the success. And, you know, my theory was
with Matt was we were like, how about where let's
say, okay, it's just fairness, right? If this
thing actually blows up and does really well.
You should benefit from that. People have been
kind of given sort of promises of participation
back and haven't come true. This is like everyone
got their rates. Everyone got their hourly. No
one cut anything. This is just an exercise in
actually proving that it's not bullshit, that
if there's success, you'll get some extra. A
little success, a little extra. A little more,
a little more. But also, like you said, because
it's fair. It's fair. And in success, the people
who made the movie should. you know, should participate
in that. And also with this one, which was important
to us, you know, they delineate above the line
and below the line, right? Like above the line
being like us, the director and the producers.
And below the line being kind of the more blue
-collar side of our industry. Like painters,
grainsmen, camera people, everybody else, the
drivers. And so we just wanted, and believed,
like when we started this company, we were like,
look, you know, we know who makes our movie better.
Right. It's not it's it's like they've this has
kind of been mispriced the whole time. Like the
economics have been wrong. Like when there's
a when there's a big success, everybody who had
a hand on it. Because you see a great director
that people rely on or an actor that's considered
bankable. They're all going, OK, I need all my
people. Yeah. Every great director I've worked
with and I've worked with a lot of them. They
have their regular crew members. Right. They
that ride or die with these. Right. Because I
mean, and you said it to me when we were starting
the company, you were like. You know, those department
heads, you know, who are each handling like,
you know, cinematography, you know, your camera
department, you know, your grip department, your
electric, like all these this those people are.
ultimately the people who make the movie good.
Like, they make a demonstrable difference in
how good your movie is. And imagine once you
get a good flow with a great crew, like, you
got the band. Like, there's no need to bring
in new band members. Let's do this again. And
then, like, you have the situation where they
all are filmmakers, too. Everybody knows what
we're trying to do. So, like, then what makes
it, you know, you're trying to get something
special, something interesting, something fucking
magical in some moment. You have to, like, if
people are tight or if they've been out of shape
or, you know, it fucks up the environment. People
aren't relaxed. Actors can't do their best work.
And that does make a difference between something
that's good, average, great, whatever. And I
think that if you say, like, you know, it makes
cognitive sense to people. But if you look around,
like, what's an example? Colin Anderson, camera
operator, right? Not the cinematographer. But
I would tell you, I think he's the greatest camera
operator there is in Hollywood. And if you want
evidence of that, he shot Marty Supreme. He was
a camera operator in one battle after another.
You look at his resume, and you're like, oh,
that's interesting. These are all fucking great
movies. Now, is he personally responsible for
all of it? No, because it's a collaborative medium.
There is no, like, you can be a painter and paint
by yourself. You can be a novelist and do that,
sing, write music. You can't do this job alone.
Like, there are a lot of people that go into
it. You know, even when I realized, like, Matt
was the lead in the last movie I did air that
I directed. Having somebody so fucking good in
your movie who also shows up, does his job, is
friendly, isn't fucking around or playing games
or being weird, like, that sets this tone. Everybody
else kind of goes, okay, but what's Damon like?
Oh. We're taking this seriously, but nobody's
going to be a dick. We're all going to do our
job. We're not going to take ourselves too seriously,
but we're going to take the job really seriously.
And immediately, everybody kind of snaps into
that. That trickle -down effect goes across the
whole thing. And I think the best thing that
I know how to do as a director is just create
an environment where people feel like they show
up. People like me. They're rooting for me. I
can fucking embarrass myself and be bad, and
it's not going to be in the movie, and it's going
to make me feel self -conscious. I'm listened
to. My ideas are listened to. Yeah, and if I
have something to offer, they're going to go,
oh, that's a good idea. You know what I mean?
And that's kind of the trick, in my view. And
then you're depending on the gifts of all these
people, every single one of them. You know, some
woman's assistant. A prop master is coming up
with like the stuff that, you know, Phil Knight
found, you know, his waffle from the shoe. They
found it on eBay. Like that's an extra mile.
You know what I mean? Yeah. If you make people
feel like it matters and you give a shit and
that they're contributing and, oh, cool, let's
do a close up of that. That's really fucking
cool. They'll die for you. They'll go all the
way. And it changes the whole. And if you bonus
them, you know, it's not just all, you know,
it's just there's an actual like codified. bonus
structure to say like This is the way of recognizing
that shit, right? It's like in your paycheck,
too. It's not just bullshit. That's very real.
And you guys developed this? So this is something
that you – kudos to you guys for addressing this,
first of all, and recognizing it and having that
attitude because it's so important and so easy
for big movie stars to just think about themselves
and their own careers. Well, we're communists,
Joe. We're from Cambridge. Keep the car running.
No, but each deal has had this kind of – Each
deal that we've done so far has been different
because we've made deals with different studios
and platforms and stuff like that. And it just
involved us basically retroactively going, hey,
we came in under, we did a great job, there's
extra money, here you go. This is the first time
that we were able to actually create a schedule
where it's like, because, and by the way, we
wouldn't have been able to do that without Netflix
going, okay, cool. You think you can make this
work? We'll give you a shot. Otherwise, we wouldn't
have been able to do it. So we had to say, look,
we're not asking you to take a cut. And we can
tell you, if the movie is watched as many hours
in the first 90 days as, like, this movie A,
that you all know what it is, then that's, you
know, 20 % of your salary, let's say, right?
You should take a hit. So it's like, yeah, you
make more money, your bonus is more. It's all
just pegged to where you're at, just because
that was the most fair idea we'd come up with.
So they gave us, like, five different levels,
right? first couple we hopefully we can hit and
maybe the third maybe we get and then it got
to like the fifth level it's kind of like single
double triple home run home run fucking grand
slam the fifth one was 110 % of all Netflix viewers
or something like that so it's everybody who
has a Netflix account watches it and then like
10 % of them watch it again and we were like
it's like K -pop demon this is the biggest K
-pop demon but that's what happened we were laughing
and then K -pop demon hunters came along and
actually did that that's the first movie that's
ever Jesus yeah well I think a lot of autistic
kids watch that over and over I haven't seen
it, but I mean, somebody's watching it over and
over. Oh, yeah. Dude, people love it. I mean,
it's, you know. the value of it is that because
before this, one of the big things and everybody's
fighting over in the strike is like, well, share
your, there used to be residuals, right? And
residuals, and it was only for SAG and a few
other things, but it was like, and you knew if
you had a line in the movie and there'll be a
certain number, like at the box office, well,
you're going to get another 2000 bucks. And that
was a big deal. You get that check in the mail
and like, okay, I can pay the rent for another
month and I can do that shit. But then it, then
there was this like sort of ill, what constitutes
success? Because streamer doesn't actually sell
another ticket. if you watch that movie, right?
And it's hard to tell, well, why did you sign
up for this service, right? So for a while, everyone
was looking at the first thing that you looked
at when you subscribed to somebody. Okay, you're
going to go buy Hulu? What did you watch first?
The bear. Well, the bear must be creating value
for us. But you can't assign a strict numerical
value to it because it's like a box office where
you can go, well, you know, Oppenheimer is a
billion dollars or whatever, and, you know, that's
another billion dollars on our balance sheet
because streamers... doing a subscription model.
Whether it's like a gym membership where in the
fucking first of the year you're like, I'm going
to work out again. I'm going to buy that annual
membership and you go twice or you go to the
gym every single day, you're paying the same
amount. Also the weird thing is with streaming,
when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like
you're going to the movie theater and there's
seven movies playing. You're opening up Netflix
and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane
how much content. You could waste the rest of
your life sitting in front of Netflix and then
die and have millions of hours more to listen
to or watch. You're right. When we started researching
that and built our own data to pull people and
examine all this stuff. It's actually all the
library stuff that people are watching all the
time. If you said, like, the new stuff is theoretically
what keeps people with the subscription or whatever,
but in terms of, like, volume of time, I think,
and it doesn't come from them, but it looks a
lot like, you know, we're going to watch, like,
Orange is the New Black and the episode of Suits
and the old Seinfeld and Friends and, you know,
Cupcake Wars. You know, that's because Americans
watch six hours of TV a day, right? That's crazy.
And then the other six hours they're on their
phone. How does anything get done? How does anything
get done? When you started to make this film,
what is the process? How did you guys agree on
it? Did you guys have it written first? Joe Garneau
wrote it. Before you knew you were going to Netflix
with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He came to us with
the script, and we've known Joe for a really
– he did a movie. His first movie was called
Narc. I don't know if you ever saw it. It's terrific.
Yeah, it's a great movie, yeah. So we met him
way back this, 25 years ago. something like that.
So we met him back then. And Ben did a movie
of his in 2004, I think. So we've known Joe for
a really long time and kind of been in touch
with him over the years. And he just sent this
to us. And we read it and we thought it was great
and bought it for the company. And then we started
talking to Joe about how he wanted to do it.
And he suggested that we actually do the movie.
And we were like, yeah, why don't we do it? It
seems... Basically because we liked it. We liked
it, yeah. We're not trying to just do our movies.
We want to be, you know, doing movies with all
the people that we like and respect. And then,
you know, the way we sort of set it up is such
that to try to get, like, historically the way
it's worked is, like, you know, a studio will
own an IP or a script or whatever, and they'll
say, okay, we want you to do it. Okay, well,
how much did you get for the last one, right?
And you go, well, what's the budget? And then
that's how they assign a value to it, right?
But my belief was, well, especially when these
streams are coming into the market and chasing
stuff, this movie may be worth more. It may be
worth less. And we're all just subject to that.
So we'll try to get the best price for it. And
we'll all share it pro rata. And essentially,
that was the same process. We've done eight,
I guess, movies or so now. We took it out and,
you know, people wanted it. And then one of the
things that was really appealing about Netflix
was that they were open to this idea that we've
been trying to institutionalize. It was like,
okay, great. That's really meaningful because
ideally it becomes a template that other people
go, hey, we want to do that thing, you know.
And then go, oh, here's the paperwork. Yeah,
that's the thing. Like a lot of people say that
they would want to do it, but now the template
exists. So it's like plug and play. not full
of shit and you really do mean that, then guess
what? Just take this and don't do it. And it
also is going to let you, you know, I hope, like,
manage the risk. In other words, the argument
you always have is like, well, shit, we've got
to invest all this money in the movie so you
can't have your protagonist be too objectionable,
that's too edgy, or can't be R -rated because
it costs this much. I get it, right? You're going
to put all your money into it. You don't want
money to fucking disappear. You want to make
money? Okay. So when we wrote the first movie,
Good Will Hunting, it was like we knew that had
to be a cheap movie. People talking in rooms
to each other because no one's going to put a
bunch of money into a movie. Into a movie with
us. Two assholes that no one heard of. So it
was like, okay, what can we do that's interesting
and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible
so that we can make the argument that someone
should make the movie? That same logic carries
through every time you're asking somebody to
invest in something. So what I'd like to have
happen is to say, okay, now that we know there's
a reliable system where we understand that in
success we'll actually benefit, we can lower.
you know, the price up front for you so that
you can have a low fucking barrier to entry so
that you can take the risk so that we can do
something really interesting. That's, that's
an original idea. That's a, you know, that's
an ABN or a sinners or a fucking Marty Supreme
or whatever it is. And, and then if it's successful,
we're not all sitting here like assholes where,
you know, you guys walk off with all the money,
but, and you can have that happen in an ongoing
way so that you can make more interesting stuff.
A lot of the stuff that was going on with Strikes
was centered around AI and what AI is going to
do to the business. Like where do you feel is
going to be like the biggest problem with AI?
Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because
there's a lot of that where they want to use
extras and own their digital rights forever,
essentially be able to recreate them in any kind
of film. But then there's also you're going to
have films that are written. by artificial intelligence.
You're going to have scenes that don't involve
people. And it gets weird, right? It gets really
weird, but it's actually an area of expertise
for him. Yeah, we've been spending time looking
at this. My belief is sort of like, what's going
to happen with electricity? Well, a lot of shit's
going to happen with electricity. Some of it's
going to be good. Some of it's going to change
stuff. Some of it's going to be like, this is
going to be shit that kills a bunch of people.
It's opening a door that you can't... um you
know say well talk about in a kind of a blanket
way but i think with what i see is that for example
if you try to get chat gbt or claude or gemini
to write you something it's really shitty And
it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to
the mean, to the average. And it's not reliable.
And it's, I mean, I just can't even stand to
see what he writes. Now, it's a useful tool if
you're a writer and you're going, ah, what's
the thing? I'm trying to set something up where
somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed
two days and gets, and it can give you some examples
of that. I actually don't think it's very likely.
that it's going to be able to write anything
meaningful, and in particular, that it's going
to be making movies from whole cloth, like Tilly
Norwood. That's bullshit. I don't think that's
going to happen. I think it actually turns out
the technology is not progressing in exactly
the same way they sort of presented it, and really
what it is is going to be a tool. Just like sort
of visual facts. And yeah, it needs to have language
around it. You need to protect your name and
likeness. You can do that. You can watermark
it. Those laws already exist. I can't sell your
fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue
me, period. I might have the ability to draw
you, to make you in a very realistic way. But
that's already against the law. And the unions
are going to, the guilds are going to manage
this where it's like. Okay, look, if this is
a tool that actually helps us, for example, we
don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We
can shoot the scene here in our parkas and whatever
it is, but then make it appear very realistically
as if we're in the North Pole. It'll save us
a lot of money, a lot of time. We're going to
focus on the performances and not be freezing
our ass off out there and running back inside.
That's useful, just like Spencer Tracy and Catherine
Hepburn used to be, like, driving their car and
there's a wind blowing a painting behind them.
It looked goofy. Now, you know, people use a
lot of computer -generated stuff. And some of
it is going to replace just that. Like, instead
of 500 guys in Singapore, you know, making $2
an hour to render all the graphics for a superhero
movie, there's going to be able to do that a
lot easier. There's already laws around and guild
guidelines around, like, how many union extras
you have to use. But also, we've been tiling
extras. Like, there weren't a million orcs in
Middle Earth. You know what I mean? There weren't
Invictus. There weren't all those people in the
stadium. Like, that's something we've been doing.
It kind of feels to me like the thing we were
talking about earlier, where there's a lot more
fear because we have the sense that's existential
dread. It's going to wipe everything out. But
that actually runs counter, in my view, to what...
history seems to show, which is, A, adoption
is slow. It's incremental. I think a lot of that
rhetoric comes from people who are trying to
justify valuations around companies where they
go, we're going to change everything. In two
years, there's going to be no more work. Well,
the reason they're saying that is because they
need to ascribe a valuation for investment that
can warrant the capex spend they're going to
make on these data centers with the argument
that, like, oh, you know, as soon as we do the
next model, it's going to scale up and be three
times as good. except that actually ChatGPT -5,
about 25 % better than ChatGPT -4, and costs
about four times as much in the way of electricity
and data. So those nice things, it's like plateauing.
The early AI, the line went up very steeply,
and it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's
because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's
going to be really expensive to get better. And
a lot of people were like, fuck this, we want
ChatGPT -4, because it turned out like the vast
majority of people. who use AI are using it as
companion bots to chat with at night. And so
there's no work, there's no productivity, there's
no value to it. I would argue there's also not
a lot of social value to getting people to focus
on an AI friend who's telling you that you're
great and listening to everything you say and
being sycophantic. That's sort of a side issue.
I think for this particular purpose, the way
I see the technology and what it's good at and
what it's not, it's going to be good at... filling
in all the places that are expensive and burdensome
and they make it harder to do it. And it's always
going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic.
Aspects of it. Well, I think the more it becomes
ubiquitous the more people are gonna appreciate
real things that are made by real people You
know like you're you still appreciate a handmade
table, you know, you're gonna appreciate like
did you see? The Beast in Me Claire Danes. Yeah.
No, I thought yeah, I heard it was great that
lady. Whoo. That's terrific Whoo when she's in
a scene you're just like Jesus Christ great great
like you like her fucking lips are quivering
like you believe everything that she saying.
But you're right. People want that. You can't
fake that. I did this interview with Dwayne Johnson
because when people are in these awards things,
they sometimes have other actors interview them.
I did this interview with Dwayne and I asked
him, there's this scene in The Smashing Machine
where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes
to see him in the hospital. And it really...
walloped me this scene. I thought it was so great.
And I asked him, and I was just like, can you
just tell me about this scene? Did Benny Safdie
direct it? Did Benny write that? Did you work
on that scene with him? He goes, no, we actually
worked on it together. And I go, well, how did
that scene come to be? And Dwayne goes, well,
my father was an alcoholic. And I don't remember
if he said substance abuser or alcoholic, but
I didn't know the man. I don't want to impugn
him. But he had a substance issue, whatever it
was. He goes, and when he would talk to me, You
know, that's how he would defend himself. It
was almost a bargaining thing, because there's
this thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed,
and Dwayne's amazing in this scene. He's going
like, yeah, isn't it crazy? And then I woke up
and thought, I mean, I could hear him, but I
couldn't really hear him. And you see him, and
he's kind of tap dancing, and his friend finally
kind of holds his feet to the fire. And at that
moment, Dwayne literally starts to burst into
tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over
his head. And it's like and it's and it's I mean,
it's just it was I'm not doing it justice if
you haven't. I mean, I know you've seen it. But
he said, yeah. So he explains that about his
father. And then he goes. And and when my mom
was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer, I
was with her when the oncologist came in and
she was lying in the hospital bed. And when he
gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over
her head. And I looked at her and she just looked
like a little like a little kid. And I was like,
all right. So that is two traumatic events from
this guy's life, from his life experience. And
the actor in him sees this scene, goes into his
memory, pulls these two things out, understands
that they're appropriate for this scene and he
can marry them together in the scene. And then
he goes and performs it that way. A dude walking
in off the road, goes to the movies, sees this,
understands somehow that it's fucking real. I
didn't know why. That's why I wanted to ask him,
how did that scene come to be? I genuinely didn't
know. And made me tear up, you know. Like, that
is... There's no fucking AI that can do that.
No. It's a whole lot more than photorealistic
images. Yeah. You could have an AI understand
Dwayne's face and move his face into different.
No fucking thing could ever do that. The complications
of real life experiences relayed. That is a completely
human. That is an artist. That's a piece of art.
Yes. That comes out of a lived human experience.
That movie gave me so much anxiety. There's moments
where Emily Blunt is arguing with him. She's
so good. I really said, I was like, I think that's
the best she's ever been. You know, we live in
the same building in New York. She's like a very
dear friend of mine. And I was like, I really
think that's the best she's ever been. And then
I blurted that out to Chris Nolan, and he kind
of stopped and looked at me like. He didn't say
it, but he was kind of like, she's pretty fucking
good in my movie, too. Well, she's great, period.
She's great, period. She's great, period. But
there's something about that. Well, I knew Mark.
I knew Mark from I met Mark in 97 when he was
fighting in the UFC. So I knew the whole journey
of him. And I was so happy for Dwayne because
it was a film where instead of being this fucking
superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man, he gets
to be that but be. A great actor. And, you know,
you can't really get a person to look like that,
to express emotions. And he was Mark Kerr. I
know. If you know Mark, I mean, it was fucking
great acting. I completely forgot it was him.
And somebody who had seen it before told me that
was going to happen. And I was like, all right,
we'll see. And it was like from the second it
started. It didn't get the credit it deserved
in terms of like the amount of people that went
to see it. But I think overall in time, people
appreciate it. That's what people go back to
and talk about. Because it's a movie about MMA.
So a lot of people are like, I don't want to
see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads.
But it's not. It's just a movie that happens
to be around MMA. But it's a great movie. The
scenes are fucking fantastic. The acting is so
good. And even the fight scenes, they're so realistic,
man. It's really like they, I saw all those fights.
They've recreated those fights about as good
as you can get. And just his crazy struggle.
And you know the story behind the documentary,
The Smashing Machine? No. So the smashing machine
was made when Mark was at the height of his powers
and pride. And he was the most terrifying guy
in the world. He was 265 pounds of solid muscle
just blowing through people. Didn't even look
like a human being. Everyone was terrified of
him. No one knew he was a drug addict. No one
knew. And he spiraled out as they were filming,
and he let them film him. Let them film him shooting
up. Let them film him, like, bringing this giant
bag of pills with him and all this shit everywhere
and just completely falling apart while they
were supposed to be capturing this hero movie
of the greatest fighter in the world. He's falling
apart, like, live in front of the documentary.
It was a fucking amazing documentary. I got to
see it. It's really good. But I was so happy
that they put it in a film. And I was so happy
that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's
really capable of. Because he's so limited by
a lot of just the parameters of the roles that
he was in. Yeah. And by like galactic success.
Yes. Right. He had to and will continue to have
to push. For that, right? Because it's what he
wants. Yeah. And not because what they're going
to continue to want him to do is, you know, the
thing that mints them money. Yeah. But I suspect
that his experience and feeling about this movie.
From the conversations I've had with him, yeah,
this has changed him. Well, I mean, it's like
this thing that these superhero guys have to
do where it's like something has to change because
otherwise you're going to be. And with a guy
that looks like that, it's so easy to put him
in that box. And so you see him now, he's thinner,
he's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista went
through a very similar thing too, right? He wanted
to have more range, wanted to have more opportunities
to do exciting and different challenging things.
Well, I think also coming from where he came
from, right? It's like you talk about going from
TV to movies in the old days. Try coming from
wrestling to the biggest movie star in the world,
right? It's incredible that he did that and now
he's in this place where he's got this leverage
as because he's so beloved and you know that
that he can kind of tailor the tailor what he
wants from from here on out it's hard to bring
the audience with you right no no i know you
like this thing but let me let me show you something
else you know it's sort of like you go to the
concert the band wants to play the new songs
No, I love the song, too. You know my acoustic
thing that I did? Yeah, I went to see the Stones
when they were here in town, and there was a
few songs they played that were, like, new songs.
Oh, really? You could see the audience was like,
okay, okay. Go get a beer. Get the other one.
Yeah, that's what, I mean, but, you know, every
artist, I guess, has to make that choice, and
he's made it. And it was an amazing vehicle,
too, because he still kept that superhuman, hulkish
frame, but also. show like god there's like amazing
depth there yeah yeah yeah and that's the thing
that's i think especially because it's a it's
collaborative it happens to other people that's
what movies do that other shit doesn't do it's
just just create like you feel for people it's
empathy it's all made up right that's not him
it's all it's all an illusion all bullshit but
if you do it really well it's like you know somebody
that seems to really be feeling something like
all of a sudden i think what it does it touches
like these things in ourselves you know it has
that same effect that dwayne went through of
articulate to you about like these moments that
were kind of burned into his memory then really
the best movies are kind of almost blank screens
that we project our own like oh yeah i my father
died or i went through this with my kid or i'm
i feel alone and and and miserable and and here's
this like hopeful moment that someone has to
go maybe i can and maybe i can do something you
know they inspire you they touch you they move
you and like the thing to go for the other thing
is you know It's to tell the lighter story, to
go through the more typical sort of tropes of
it all. Either way, you're in somebody else's
perspective for a few hours. Yeah. And hopefully
it breeds compassion. Well, when it's done right,
there's a magic to it where you forget that it's
happening and you're there. And the most amazing
trick is when it's done by famous people. You
know, I was talking to Ethan Hawke about this.
There's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon in that
movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the
world. I forget the name of it. Right, right,
right. Tomorrow. Yeah. Tomorrow something. People
will find it. But it's a great fucking movie.
But there's this scene where he's trying to get,
he's talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's got
a gun to him. And it's so, fuck, I know that's
Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hawke. It doesn't
matter. Like, you're fucking locked in. You're
locked in. You're like, oh, shit. Like, that's
the magic. And he was like, but I'm locked in
too. Like, that's. It's like a hypnosis. It's
like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre
way. Like you have the lines, but you're living
it. And that's either done or it's not done.
And when it's not done. You could tell someone's
kind of just performative. You feel it when you're
watching. Yes. If it does that thing and it pulls
you in, then it's happening. That's the magic
of film. And sometimes you trick people, I guess,
but for the most part... For the most part, you
don't. If you're feeling it and it's really happening,
it's much more like... Other human beings recognize
human beings experiencing real shit. Yes. They
really do. It's like these mirror neurons. Like,
I know what sorrow looks like without having
to fucking... I can't break it down for you or
I even... You know, you... We all know kind of
what, like, oh, he's a little anxious right now.
Or did I maybe offend him? Or, you know, all
these little things. And when some, like, in
the rare moments when these big feelings or things
happen. You feel it, too, you know, and you usually
like an example is this old saying about like,
you know, actors try to cry. People try not to
cry. Like because when you're really experiencing
that shit, you don't want people to see it. You
want to hide it. You want to know. I'm OK. I'm
fine. You know, it's like I want to pull the
sheet up. Yeah. Yeah. But the other thing that's
really interesting from from our side of doing
it, because he and I have talked about this a
lot is and I've always said publicly, like great
actors are good enough for both of you. Like
when you're in a scene with a great actor, that
thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis
or whatever you want to call it, that energy,
that place where you go, right? They're bringing
you right with it. It's like a fucking tractor
beam. They will suck you right in with them.
And like as quickly as you look into their eyes
and you're like, you're like just there. And
it's like riding the easiest wave you've ever
ridden in your life. You know, it can be the
hardest thing in the world and it can be the
easiest thing in the world. When you're with
a great actor, it's just, if the scene's a good
scene. Yeah, this is a real paradox. All the
stuff that I'm the most proud of, the weird thing
about it is it felt very easy at the time. And
the shit where you're banging your head against
the wall and trying to get blood from a stone
and killing yourself and the whole thing, and
it just ends up fucking feeling empty. And the
thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is my
insecurity is like, shh. It should be harder
than this, right? Are we like, we work hard enough?
And learn to kind of just trust that. It feels
good. Let's just keep going. Well, there's some
scenes in this movie without giving too much
away where there's conflict between you two guys
that seems so real. And that's even harder to
recreate because you guys are good friends. And
you're making the movie together. And you've
got this scene where you're acting in this and
with the conflict with the two of you guys in
the movie. But it's very fucking real. The reason
that it was real is that I like that scene. The
reason it's... works i think is because he's
coming at me and he's he really needs to know
something and i'm completely blanking him like
i'm just he's going you gotta tell me what's
going on man he's like it's awesome like what
what is going what is the thing and i'm just
like literally kind of blanking him in this bizarre
way which which like was really frustrating him
in real life because he Because that feeling
of, like, it's fucking tell me, dude. It's you.
And he finally goes, he screams out, I don't
trust you right now. That's a fucking problem,
right? Which is, like, what you would say to
an old friend. Like, what are you doing, man?
Like, what are you doing? Like, tell me the fucking
betrayal. Lie to me or tell me the truth. Don't
fuck with me and, like, step outside our whole
relationship and all of a sudden act like, you
know. Give me this weird look of just, like,
I don't know. you know like and so we were doing
the scene it was really fucking pissing him off
I could see him like getting like the one line
that wasn't written that I saw that I didn't
remember doing was I would have never fucked
you like this I would have never fucked you like
this yeah which I didn't even remember saying
I like that keep that thing I wouldn't have fucked
you and I was I thought I was like what is he
I thought what did I and I so watched the playback
it was one of those rare moments again it was
like where It was that thing of you doing all
the work by not doing anything, which I didn't
expect that to be the choice that you made. And
it just was confusing and felt like just, you
know, leaving you out in the fucking cold. I
think the only thing I could rely on is like,
you know, I wouldn't do this to you. In those
moments where you're ad -libbing a line, where
a line comes, is it just that feels like that's
what you say? It's just kind of like he couldn't
stop from saying it. Right. But you have to be
working with somebody that makes that okay. You
know what I mean? Because the part of your brain
that will, like, govern you or tell you something's
not okay, we'll step in if it's sort of like,
you know, listen, I expect you to fucking do
this box. And there's directors and writers who
really do really care about. every word precisely.
And that, you know, and that's, that's how they
do it. And that's fine. And that can be great
too. For me, like it, I find it's, it becomes
more interesting and sometimes better stuff happens.
If you actually feel like you don't have to say
any of the lines, I don't see any of the lines
in the scene. then I'll tend to say the ones
that feel right. But it's that fake thing that
never happens in life, which is I'm never sitting
here talking to you and think, what's my next
line? What am I supposed to say and how should
I say that? And it's not about the lines ever.
It's not about the words. It's about what's the
scene about? What's happening in the scene? It's
one of the reasons why Curb Your Enthusiasm is
so great. Larry David just gives you a place
to get to. Yeah. He gives them kind of a loose
agenda of what's going to happen. And then films
a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out.
Yeah. And a lot of times that shows about...
The awkward shit when people are missing each
other and not sure of themselves and a little
embarrassed. Fucking genius show. It really is.
And people talk like we're talking. Like you
occasionally talk over each other. There's a
stumble. There's no one. Like what? What the
fuck are you talking? There's weirdness. Because
what's also happening is that forces you to really
listen. Right. And that is that is the hardest
thing to kind of learn for young actors, I think,
is is it's really all about listening. And like
I did a bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass
and that's how he works, where he where you just
know the agenda going in. You know, some basic
things that you know what your guy needs going
in. Like I was playing a chief warrant officer
and I had to go through a door and there was
a guy and I needed to interrogate him. And this
is what I needed to know from him. I needed to
secure the house with my guys, and I needed to
get to this guy. We needed to make sure everybody
here was secure. And he put me with a bunch of
real combat veterans. And we fucking went in
and, you know, they're the extras. Which is another
thing that does your job for you. It's just being
around the real people. Joe putting the cops
from Miami, you know, on these parts. And it
just, like, by osmosis, you feel more legitimate.
The thing feels more authentic to the audience.
You don't know why because you don't know what
the fucking culture is of the tactical narcotics
team in Miami. But when you see the real guys,
you're like, yeah, that seems right. Miami was
a perfect place to have it, too. Well, it's also
specific to this because it's based on this real
tactical narcotics team in Miami. And the guy
who ran that, this guy, Chris Casiano, is Joe's
friend, and he's the guy that my character's
based on. So Chris was Chris. We went, you know,
we rode along with Chris down there. We went
with that team and watched them operate and then
hung out with them. And then they came up and
they were, you know, all in the movie. And Chris
was around as a technical advisor the whole time.
So any question like little details. All right.
How do I go through this door? What do I do?
What do you do here? What's the what's the protocol
here? What you know, all of that stuff was kind
of overseen by him so that it. so that it was
how they really do it. That whole fucking town
is so... Did you ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes.
Shit. The entire fucking graduating class of
the police academy one year either wound up murdered
or in jail. That's what happens when all of a
sudden you push so much fucking money into something,
right? And it's like, before they even kind of
figured out, like, you know, and there wasn't
even a lot of stigma. It was like, ah, cocaine,
whatever. It's kind of rich guy's fun drug. But,
you know, is there some statistic about like,
you know, the amount of money in the banks in
Miami was like the same as the rest of the country?
More banks per capita in Miami than anywhere
else in the country. Right. Because they were
just laundering money. Right. And they got away
with it. They literally got away with it. Have
you ever flown over Bimini? No. So if you ever
fly over Bimini, there are all these like Cessnas
underwater, all these planes like around the
island. Because what they used to do, Bimini
is like the closest, it's 50 miles off the coast
of Florida. They would come in with a plane full
of drugs and just crash the plane into the water.
They would land it. On purpose? On purpose. Because
there's no runway on Bimini. It's like, fuck
it, we're going to dump the plane. They would
have 10 cigarette boats, like a flotilla of boats
waiting. They would crash the plane. They'd offload
the drugs as the plane was sinking, right? And
then they'd put it, the Coast Guard figures they're
always coming for them. That's why they have
10 boats. They throw the drugs into one of the
boats, and they got a 1 out of 10 chance of making
it. They just scatter. And the Coast Guard goes
after one of them and hopes they get the right
one. And it's just like, no, it's just taking
a cruise tonight. What's the problem, officer?
But the planes are still all submerged. The water's
so clear, you can see it. How many fucking planes?
Oh, wow. Oh, there you go. That's crazy. How
many fucking planes are out there? I flew over
it probably 20 years ago, but, I mean, there's...
That wasn't a... I don't know how long. I mean,
but if you think of probably the cost of one
of those little Cessnas probably wasn't, I mean,
with the amount of drugs they were moving on.
Yeah. There you go. Fucking wild. They're kind
of landing where it's sort of shallow. Yeah,
they land and it's like five to 10 feet of water.
And what do they, they land at whatever, 55 knots.
So you just try to. It looks nice too. Like,
yeah, sure. Wow. It won't be comfortable, but
I mean, Sully landed at 737 or whatever it was.
Right. Yeah. Fucking wild. What a crazy part
of our culture that that happened. Yeah. That
the whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular,
like Miami Vice, all that shit. It's like it
shaped the entire country. For sure. Oh, yeah.
I just remember that one guy in that documentary
who was like, I think he was from Boston and
he was like the pilot and he had figured out
the route and he was like, man. Like, we could
have gotten away with this forever. It was somebody
talked, and he knew that's the only way we would
have been caught. He was like, I had it all.
He was clearly really smart. A ton of guys did,
too. You know what I mean? There's a whole lot
of people out there that were like, yeah, we
had a nice run. That's why I got eight houses.
Oh, yeah. That's one of the. real crimes that
people got away with was bringing cocaine into
this country. There's a lot of people that got
very wealthy, including banks, which is just
really crazy. Banks with the jewelry companies.
Oh, yeah. There was, like, more Jaguar dealerships
in Miami than everywhere else in the country.
It was like, doesn't pay to ask questions. So,
yep, I guess a lot of people like our cars here.
You don't say. All cash. Sure. Yeah, we can make
you a deal. Sure. How many backyards in Miami
still to this day have bags just buried somewhere
that nobody knows about? It's probably where
Just checking. When you buy a house in Miami,
just dig the yard up. Well, at least find out
who owned it before you. Oh, he's a pilot. Get
a truck. Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the
backyard. I mean, one of those guys in the films
had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard.
They had nowhere to put it. They were making
so much money. They just had to bury it places.
That's fucking crazy. Well, that's why it's a
perfect backdrop for the film. Because that...
The situation that the cops, without giving away
too much of the plot, but the situation that
the cops are dealing with is a very real situation.
I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty. So many
cops turn dirty. It's because they just get confronted.
There's so much temptation. Yes. Like, you take
these people. You know, you got, like, six, seven
people. They fucking work for a living. They
have the same bullshit they have to deal with.
And there's $20 million. And it makes for great
drama, too, even with the performances. Because
all of a sudden, somebody's thinking, OK, how
are they going to react? Who's going to be the
first person to say, I'm going to have to turn
this all in? And getting to play that shit. And
for me, also, without being sanctimonious or
preachy, because I really think movies... We're
talking about what they do well. What they do
very poorly is deliver messages or lecture. As
soon as you get into that thing, the audience
is like, I'm going to go to church for that or
fucking school. I don't need that shit here.
But I like that what was underneath it is like,
this is a fucking hard job. And that there's
a lot of value. These characters, the ones that
are trying to do their job, are trying to get
through the day. And just at the end of the day,
have done their job like they said they were
going to do. Adhere to the fucking ethics that
they're supposed to. And at the end of the day,
be able to sleep at night and believe there's
some value in not fucking stealing the money
or flipping somebody over. You know what I mean?
And doing all that shit. And that's the win.
The win doesn't have to be get away with the
bag of money or fucking save the world from...
the evil scientist laser beam or whatever. It's
like, at the end of the day, if you can fucking
live with yourself and say, look, you know, I
acquitted myself according to what the fucking
expectations were and what am I, true to my word.
And I think there's, like, that's a, I don't
know, that affected me. I found that kind of
moving. And you can't do it if you create, like,
to credit to Joe's script, like, just two -dimensional
characters. Oh, I'm the hero, I'm the villain,
or this person would never do that. They all
have to be real people. Like, you would be subject
to, like... temptation money just represents
whatever that thing is you think you want or
that's going to make your life better you're
you know it's something different to everybody
but you know especially when you're like you're
facing like real you know the custody thing or
the you know the sick relative or or whatever
it is that's It's a real thing. Nobody's immune
to that kind of temptation. Sometimes I think
it's cavalier to be like, oh, well, you're dirty.
Putting people in a very tough situation a lot
of times, particularly if they're feeling undervalued.
Like the woman seen with Catalina is like, I
get fucking pissed. I get yelled at. I get shit
on. You know what I mean? I'm out here grinding
every fucking day. It's a lot to ask. I think
it's worth kind of making that heroic without
sort of indicating too much. No, it's really
well written because there's no suspension of
disbelief moments. And that's hard to do in a
big blockbuster action movie. There's always
one moment in a movie where you're like, what?
How do you do that? You guys don't have any of
those. There's none of that. I loved it. I loved
it. I loved that aspect of it, too, where it
felt like all of it was. Like, I believed it.
I believed it. And that's really a credit to
Joe and his, like, taste. And that's why we really
thought, like, this guy knew how to make narc.
He kind of obviously understood this world and
understood that it has to, above all, it has
to feel real. And that's why he was open to,
like, okay, whatever happens, you throw in a
line, maybe it's good. Can't get your feeling
hurt if it's not, you know? But, like, you got
to be able to take that shot, and we're all down.
trying to spend time with people. I mean, I kind
of feel for these cops, a bunch of actors descend
on you and they're like, what kind of sweatshirt
is that? It was like that Michael J. Fox, James
Woods movie. Remember that movie? I forget what
it was called, but Michael J. Fox is an actor
following around James Woods. He's studying him
for a character and James Woods is a real detective
and he's just like, get this guy away from me.
I kept thinking of that. Kind of hair gel you.
Yeah, exactly. All these questions. But they
were very tolerant of us, which was nice and
really, really helpful. Because it's always details.
It's always details. It's like how fastidiously
do you kind of mine for those details? Because
I've always been convinced that like an audience,
it's like you were saying, they don't analyze
why they don't believe something. They feel it.
They just don't believe it. And it's usually
because. Those details are, you don't get those.
And that's the only thing, like, I'm not great
at imagining something. Let's invent this. I
was just saying, everything that I've done that
I like has been a result of something I found
in research. Like for the town, I went down and
just went through all the prisons out there in
Massachusetts, federal prisons, state prisons,
and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks
and banks. And kind of sometimes you want to
know, and then sat down with the FBI guys and
was like, what are they like? And the great shit
for me is that, and I'm in like... I'm in, like,
wet Walpole or I'm in the prison of Dedham or
whatever. And some guy said, like, after talking
for two hours, you know, I was like, is anything
just fucking weird ever happened or fucked up?
Anything you remember? The guy was like, yeah,
one time, you know, we were coming out of this
thing. We robbed this truck and, you know, we
had the mask. We got in the switch car. We drove
around the corner and whatever. We pull up. We
get out with fucking guns, the mask, the whole
thing. And we look over and it's just cops sitting
there doing construction duty. And I was like,
right then, he didn't tell me the story. I was
like, oh, shit. I was like, what happened? He
goes, you know, he looked at us. We looked at
him. He looked the other way. Whoa. And I was
like, really? He goes, yeah. He didn't want to
end up on the wall at the VFW. These guys with
full automatic weapons, masks on, switching cars.
I was like, all right, I'm putting that in the
movie. And it's a great moment in the town, like
in the movie. Because, you know, they all jump
out of the things. Yeah, I remember that scene.
And then, oh, yeah, here it is. It's great. And
it's this awkward. They just stop. And this dude,
he sees them. They see him. He's like, fuck,
we have to kill this guy. Nope. He turns away.
Okay. Wow. It's such a great, but that's straight
from research. I always loved that story. And
then the line is here. He put it here. It was
a great line. It was such a simple explanation
for what do you think he did and why. And that's
exactly what it would have been. That guy, next
day's picture would have been up in the wall
at the VFW. And he knew it and everybody knew
it. He said he didn't want to do it like that.
And that kind of stuff is, I don't know, it's
very human calculations and it's a very extreme
version of it. But it also doesn't have, sometimes
it's not dramatic at all. You know, it's like,
yeah, that was an easy decision. And the guy
never says anything, I didn't say anything, you
know, and kind of can't really blame him, you
know. Yeah. The Town was a great fucking movie
too, man. And I knew a lot of people like that,
you know, from boxing gyms and stuff. I knew
a guy who was a hit man for Whitey Bulger. I
knew a guy who was a friend of a brother of mine
who went to jail for that, for murder, for killing
people. What town did you grow up in? I lived
in Newton. You did? Yeah. I lived in Jamaica
Plain for a little while. I lived in Newton.
But I spent a lot of time in Boston because I
was fighting. I was mostly training. And so I
was around a lot of these very shady characters
who were in the fighting world. And a lot of
them had backgrounds in crime. One of the guys
that I went to – that I trained with, he went
to jail for a little while and then he got arrested
because a guy got killed and they broke every
bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting
it with cocaine to keep him awake while they
were doing it. And then they cut his hands off
and cut his head off. And this guy that I used
to train with got arrested for that. Jesus. Yeah.
He didn't wind up going to jail for that. He's
dead now. But he – Was it somehow or another
at least peripherally involved? Yeah, well, I
didn't do any fighting, but I went around and
found a lot. One of the things about being an
actor is people will talk to you, which is a
fucking amazing gift. Even if somebody's like,
oh, yeah, I killed guys. They'll just come out
and it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't
apply. Like these guys in the prison, what the
fuck are they going to talk? You know what I
mean? But they're interested in it for whatever.
So you avail yourself of that. And then I had
like, you know, we had. people around that movie
who everybody knew, yeah, he did that job. He
never got arrested. And so like, yeah, people,
you know, meet, you know, and, and, and talk
to him. And it's interesting because the, such
a good lesson for, for doing this job, which
is that they're never how you think they're supposed
to be like the murderer person. Right. Right.
You know, there's always something a little,
I remember one guy was supposed to be like this
really violent kind of loose cannon fucking guy
who was supposedly had done all this shit. stabbed
and killed two people, Faneuil Hall, and shot
these guys in a robbery. And he, like, shows
up with his polo shirt kind of tucked in, you
know. He's like, how's it going? You know, just
like, I never would have fucking put this guy
on, fucking killing four people. You know what
I mean? Yeah, have a good time. So I love that
one movie, and you're just thinking, fuck, man,
like. This is why, and it's a really good lesson
for like, you know, we tend to read a script
and okay, this guy's the tough guy and he's going
to be the, it's like you work with like, I had
the fucking, like the opportunity to train with
these Delta guys. Like, you know, it's the most
elite special forces combat fucking operators
in the world. I mean, I suppose the SEALs will
take exception to that, but just numerically,
right? I think there's been less than 900 guys
ever in the history of Delta. You meet them.
And they're not the biggest guys. They're not
the toughest guys. They're not trying to fucking
be hard. And, you know, they're the most relaxed,
at ease. And, you know, I found myself just being
like, finally, I was like, what? Can I just ask
you, what do you think makes somebody, like,
qualify for the Delta Force? Like, what's a good
Delta operator? It's like, you know, problem
solving. Problem solving? The guy goes, yeah,
it's probably like your job. I was like, no,
let me tell you something. It's really not like
my job. I appreciate it. Very big fucking difference.
He's like, yeah, you solve problems. No one's
trying to kill me. That's the thing. But that
was the closest insight I got to, which was I've
always kind of thought this about guys like Brady
or something. There's guys that just don't get
tight. And that they are kind of able to problem
solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's
crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan
and we're outnumbered fucking six to one. How
do you think we should get home? Like, just having
your wits about you to make that calculation
while, by the way, you're in a fucking gunfight
and things, you know, I'm sure that does make,
because those are the people where I'd be in
a fucking panic and have no idea what to do.
And you get. like attracted to the person who,
who's like, seems to have a, like, Hey, I'm,
it's good. We're going to be okay. Everybody
get your shit. We're going over here. You'll
just follow that guy. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Yeah. And, uh, but it's a good, it's not always
the most, maybe it's just cause they're so confident.
They're not like, I don't like, I don't need
to prove that I can kick anybody's ass. I don't
even get in fights like of a weapon. You know
what I mean? It's just, uh, it always, it surprises
me what it, how those kinds of. like extraordinary
experiences and people or extraordinary people
don't always manifest themselves in how they
show up. But we have caricatures in our head
of what like these tough people are like. Well,
you see that about MMA fighters. Like there's
a lot of MMA fighters. You meet them. They're
like the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people
in the world. I remember going to one of the
events in LA. I think it was at Staples. And
I was backstage and was talking to... one of
the lawyers for the UFC. We were talking about
Conor McGregor, and he was telling me a great
story about him. And this guy walks up, and he's
in chinos, khaki pants, and a blue button -up
kind of business shirt with spectacles. And he's
very small, and I kind of don't really regard
him, and I'm still hearing this story. And then
Padgett goes, Matt, do you know Henry? And I
turn, and it's Henry Cejudo. And I'm like, this
fucking guy. Could wreck me. Absolutely fucking
destroy me. And he is the guy that some dummy
would try to pick on. Yeah, right. You know what
I mean? He's not carrying himself. He just is
the thing, you know? Find out a little bit too
late. Yeah, don't find that one out late. A lot
of guys do, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, they don't
have to prove themselves, right? They do it all
the time. The same with Delta Force guys. This
idea that this outwardly brash, tough guy, usually
that kind of machismo, that's bullshit. You're
using that because you're insecure. The secure
people are very calm and genuinely very friendly.
Really nice. Yeah. That's been my experience.
Yeah, it's crazy, right? It's kind of beautiful,
too. What a great guy. And you feel like, that's
nice of you to be so sweet to me because obviously
you don't have to be. I'll just give you my watch
if you want that. Yeah. No, it is a fascinating
thing. It's like we have these ideas in our head,
these caricatures, you know, of what a tough
man is, what a good woman is, what this is, what
that is. And I think one of the beautiful things
about film, when a film is really good, is you
see these complex characters and it sort of like
reformulates in your mind. what a person actually
is. Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different
people. Yeah. And, yeah, yeah, I completely agree.
Look, the fundamental, like, challenge, I think,
in life is, like, to find some humility. which
means actually thinking you might be wrong about
the shit that you're pretty sure about. And it
means that you kind of have to assume somebody
else might have a point. It's not like just writing
everybody else off who disagrees with you because,
oh, fuck him, he's stupid, he's an asshole. Those
are things that actually take work to get to
because the first instinct, because you just
defend your idea or whatever, it's easier is
to just... That it's a zero -sum game somehow.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that two competing ideas
can't exist. Somebody can't be a good person.
And believe it. Right, right. Like, you can disagree.
We don't believe this. I don't know. What about
this? What about that? But once you find yourself
relying on, like, well, I need to, like, zero
out this person's humanity in order to defend
my idea. I think that's a pretty good indicator
that, like, there's something wrong with the
way you're thinking. Like, because it can't be
that you're right about everything and everyone
else is bad who disagrees with you. I think that
was one of the most interesting things about
The Sopranos is that the main character, the
guy that you loved, was a fucking murderer. Yeah.
Who would murder his friends. He was a complete
mobster and a thug, but you really loved him.
You loved the shit out of that guy. It was so
complicated. Jim was so good at doing the part
that you found yourself being like, I don't know,
he probably has to kill him now. That's also
a great actor. There's a very famous story about
Marlon Brando when he did Streetcar Named Desire.
And Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like...
Freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski.
He was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski.
And Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote
him as a brute. He was like a two -dimensional
brute who just came and beat up his wife and
was supposed to be this kind of dark, looming
force over the play. But Brando was like, no,
he's a human being, and I'm going to play him
like a fucking human being. And it changed the
play. But Williams, in all of his writings. He
has so much more reflex life in the real world.
Yeah, exactly. Everybody's the hero of their
story. Everyone has their reasons for why they're
doing it. And people don't set out to be like,
I'm just going to hurt someone or dominate the
world. You think, well, I've got to protect what
I have. It's like, not to bring it back to this
movie, but it's like what I liked about Rip was
it was kind of the slippery slope. The first
time you take a little money, and then, well,
I've got to cover that. I don't want to go to
jail. My reason why I did that. But now I've
told a lie. Now I've got to cover that thing.
And now you have to. guys who both live by this
code. That's very, Hey, you protect the people
who are with you and you got to have this fucking.
And so now it's to be very similar, like by that
kind of slippery slope of ultimately find themselves,
you know, well, I killed one another, uh, because
it's really not, I don't, I don't believe in
that one choice turn. It's like more, how do
you find yourself? You dig yourself in a fucking
hole. Cause you're just covering up the light,
trying to fix the last problem that's arisen,
you know? And everybody thinks. is, of course,
the roots for themselves. It's like empathize
with themselves. That's what we have to be concerned
with ourselves, our needs, our families, our
basic shit. It's hard to expect people to go
like, all right, and what about, you know, like
what they think. And I think that's, I think
it's a much more honest evaluation of people
and it allows for like complexity and forgiveness
and fucking all the shit that's. sort of beautiful
about people like rather than this notion of
like well we're going to be binary good or bad
perfect or not whatever and any infraction then
it's like permanently stains you right right
that's like what we were talking about earlier
about people that have been canceled you know
that this idea that one thing you said or one
thing you did and now we're going to exaggerate
that to the fullest extent and cast you out of
civilization in perpetuity yeah it's fucking
crazy and yeah Because I bet some of those people
would have preferred to go to jail for 18 months
or whatever and then come out and say, no, but
I paid my debt. Like, we're done. Like, can we
be done? Like, the thing about that, you know,
getting kind of excoriated publicly like that,
it just never ends. And it's the first thing
that, you know, it just... will follow you to
the grave, I think. It's also this problem that
people have with people that are in the public
eye. They have this desire to chop them down,
always. And anybody that stumbles in the public
eye, they want to destroy their life. And they
want to just pile on. And you're not there with
them. You don't feel the empathy. You're not
talking to them. They're not a human being. It's
just text on a screen. It's just kind of, like
I was saying, that kind of sixth grade instinct
to be like, oh, he's in trouble. There's this
human, like, we have dark. fucked up instincts
too sometimes to like isolate people or get joy
out of someone else they're in trouble because
maybe because part of it's saying hey it's not
me you know so if you can point the finger everyone's
looking over there we feel safer you know right
But it's like, yeah, and to take any forgiveness
out of it, you know, is a really fucked up thing
because then it makes it impossible, A, to actually
go, all right, yeah, I did that. Fuck shit. That
was wrong. I get it. You know, because it doesn't
matter. Once you've said you've done it, you
become like an outcast. And I don't think anybody
wants to think, you know, like the sum total
of who you are is your worst moment. Right. You
know, it's sort of like. I think you want to
be judged just as well. Are you capable of doing
something good or something beautiful? It's not
to say to forget. There's people that just over
and over and over again are doing horrible shit,
don't care. I get it. No one's trying to absolve
that. But you remove the ability to forgive people
or look at them in a complicated way. Or else
it's kind of one of those things. It's like get
one of ours or one of them. The instinct to get
team, tribal oriented. It just becomes a sport.
It's also like, who wants to live in a world
with no forgiveness and redemption? That's crazy.
That's just denying the very nature of human
beings. And that people do things that they regret.
And then they become better people because of
it. Some of the people I would rely on the most,
like trust my kids with the most, have done shit
that they really regret. And, you know, it was,
yeah, objectively wrong. And other people have
been like, ah, shit, I did that. I fucking, whether
it's like addiction, I got myself down this fucking
road. I did this, I did this. They're able to
go, I did it. I'm sorry. It's real. I shouldn't
have done it. It was wrong. Actually, those people
can become someone that's very trustworthy. Because
you're like, this motherfucker will say if they've
done something. They'll actually look at their
own behavior. They'll acknowledge it. And then
you feel good. Versus someone who tells you,
I always get it right. It's about evolution,
right? And our own personal evolution. And we're
all on our own path towards that. The idea of
attacking someone is like... Oh, so you... You
ace the test? Like put your pencil down? Like
you nailed being human? You're done. If you did
nail being human, that's not possible because
you forgot about the part about forgiveness.
You haven't nailed it by definition if you're
out there throwing stones. It's most of the people
that I find, especially when there's someone
that's publicly in trouble for something, most
of the people that I know that have attacked
people have a lot of questionable shit in their
past. And it's almost like they're trying to
hide that by going on the attack. That's the
thing. Like if I can point my finger. It's like,
who's going to be? Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's
a good guy. He's calling them out. Yeah, exactly.
Meanwhile, you know. It's like you were telling
me to see Wake Up Dead Man, the third Knives
Out movie. Oh, it's great. I watched it. I really
liked it. I thought it was a really interesting,
like, you know, I'm not a religious guy. And,
yeah, I'm aware of all the, like, okay, you know.
There's the religion, then there's people who
are supposed to be rational. I thought it was
a really beautiful movie about, like, what's
the role of grace? in life you know yeah and
and a really honest examination of that like
sitting doesn't side by side with yeah okay you
don't believe that but like you and you know
saying it's not about like whether you're gonna
argue over fucking evolution it's about like
how graceful are you in your life you know how
much fucking dignity can you afford other people
i know you want to recognize and see that there's
maybe something bigger than yourself and that
there's a reason to to like uh to try to sort
of be to find that grace, to get better. I thought
it was really beautiful and kind of rare and
really surprised. I was really surprised, too.
I kind of put it on and not, you know, not thinking
I'd like it. I loved it. Yeah, I loved it, too.
I think it's one of the best of the three. It
was my favorite of the three. Those are great.
Daniel Craig is great in that role. He's fantastic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The guy goes from James Bond
to that and so many other things as well. Josh
O 'Connor, who played the priest, because I first
saw him on The Crown. The Crown, yeah. I liked
him a lot. Man, what an actor he is. Really,
really good. How much film do you guys consume?
Do you spend a lot of time watching films? Well,
with the company, it depends. There's a lot.
Like, if we're working, we're watching cuts after
cuts and going to the editing room. Like, there's
a lot of kind of work around all the stuff that
we have going that eats into a lot of time. I'm
mostly just trying to keep up with what people
are doing. My issue is really that... like we've
kind of developed this pattern where all these
sort of movies that come out and are more interesting
and very, like they're all jammed out at the
last fucking month of the year. And so all of
a sudden you're trying to race. You got homework.
Yeah. Right. I got really lucky. Like, uh, recently
my son, you know, 13 society, he wants to like.
watch movies, you know? And I'd give him shit.
I'm like, what are you fucking doing? We're always
looking at TikTok and shit. Like, let's watch
a movie. And, you know, he's kind of blowing
me off and rolling his eyes. And he's like, you
know, I mean, if you're a dad, you're kind of
an asshole fundamentally. Like, come on, you
don't know what's going on. You know what I mean?
Like, he told me one time, he was like, dad,
I said, let's watch this movie. I played in the
trailer. It was, I can't remember what the movie
was. It was a good movie. And the trailer was
good. He just looks at it and goes, you know
what you guys ought to do? you guys ought to
work with some of the TikTok editors. I was just
like, wow. I went and told the editors, I told
Billy and Chris, I was like, guys, I got news
for you. But now he's like, all right, let's
watch, like, what are some movies I should watch?
He got Ladderbox, he got into that thing, you
know, it's like, so I said, okay, what are the
great movies? I'll give you a list. I started
giving him a list. They started watching them.
And so, I mean, this is like. happen for me so
it's like okay what are you watching king of
comedy like last week i watched backseat driver
king of all these scorsese movies and it really
was like oh man i because in my mind i'm like
sure i've seen that movie i know i watched them
again it was like I realized how much better
they were than I even could appreciate when I
watched it when I was younger. And it was just
the most beautiful fucking experience for me
to watch with my son. He's taking an interest.
The older two have always been a little bit like,
yeah, Dad, no, great. Hey, you guys want to come
to the premiere? No, not really. You guys want
to come to the set? No, I'm good. Well, it's
just too much familiarity. You grow up with a
dad who's a movie star, just like, eh. The kid's
got to, and I get it. You've got to be your own
person, do your thing. have all their own shit
and i get you know i i never even so i never
expected it from my son and i don't know that
he's gonna you know and i wouldn't want to lean
on him like hey get into the family business
um most of the time it's just like you know we
go to like basketball games baseball all that
type of stuff and um but it but this was a really
that was like i was like so joyful you know what
i mean i sit there and watch the movies with
my my kid I was like, this doesn't get better.
This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole
life. Right here, watch this movie. And he's
like, well, he's telling me what he thinks. Honestly,
the rest of it, you can fucking keep it. That's
awesome. That's the best. Well, it's great that
you guys still love film. It hasn't become just
a job. It hasn't become a thing that you do.
You really enjoy it and love it. Yeah, it was
never a job. I mean, it really, like, it was,
like, an absolute dream from the time we were
kids. We did fucking high school theater together,
you know? That's crazy. It was, like, we were
lucky to get it and lucky to, the whole idea
that you could even, the goal was, like, to make
a living and not have to be, like, well, I'm
an actor, you know, slash waiter, contractor,
dental assistant, whatever the fuck it is, you
know? Like, actually, I can earn money. I can,
and we always figured, like, I don't need that
much, especially if we have kids. Yeah. You know,
OK, we can make a living or it's, you know, maybe
it's fucking going to be dinner theater or maybe
it's going to be right. It's going to be there'll
be a job somewhere that we can find where we
can do this and keep doing it. Yeah. Well, there's
something – I mean I love when people love things.
I spend time on YouTube watching people like
fix watches. I don't know why, but I love when
people make furniture. I love watching people
do things that they really love, that they're
invested in. I think we all have that thing in
us where we see someone who's got a passion for
something, someone who really loves it. And that's
what everybody really wants in life, to be lost
in a thing you love, to have a purpose. And it's
beautiful. Watching someone else with true purpose.
Yeah. It's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe versus
the volcano. He goes in to buy luggage. Do you
like luggage, sir? He's like, uh, he goes, luggage
is the central preoccupation of my life. Guy's
a luggage salesman and he fucking loves bags.
He loves nothing more than luggage. And it's
the greatest scene. I asked Tom Hanks about that
when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was like, can
you tell me about that scene? Because we love
this scene so much. And he named the actor. He's
a Broadway actor, I guess, the guy. He came in.
He worked for like one day in this scene. And
he's so good in that movie. And then at the very
end, he's showing them all the luggage. And Tom
Hanks has unlimited money to spend. He thinks
he's dying. And so he basically goes like, well,
what's the best luggage? And he goes, well, if
I had the means, sir. And he opens up this thing
and there's this trunk and it's like this music
plays and he opens it. And Tom Hanks is like.
I'll take two of them. And he goes, may you live
to be a thousand years old. This is the greatest
day of his life. Oh, God. That's amazing. You
guys have been in some fucking bangers, man.
Save a Private Ryan, that opening film, the storming
of the beach. Unbelievable. That might be the
most realistic depiction of war that's ever been
made. So I remember reading the script and there
was all this dialogue, all this stuff that was
written. And I came late because I'm only in
the, he shot it chronologically and I'm only
in the last, you know, the last act of the movie
basically. And he told me on set. I was saying,
I go, how did it go at the beginning? There's
all that dialogue with them on the boat coming
in. And Stephen goes, he just goes, I cut all
of that out. He goes, no talking for the first
27 minutes of this movie. Whoa. And that was
when I was like, oh, my God, this movie is going
to be fucking unbelievable. I think Tom says,
like, I'll see you on the beach or something.
You know, guys are puking. Look at the man next
to you. He's not going to live through it. That
was the script, right? Remember that? It was
look at the man next to you. He won't live. He's
going to die. Two out of three of you are going
to die. So look to your left. Look to your right.
And feel bad for those two sons of bitches because
they're not going to make it. You know, it was
stuff like that. And Steve was just like, nope.
Wow. No, these guys are puking. It's like the
thing's up. You just hear, tick, tick, tick,
tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. You know,
and it's just like, and then just boom, and you're
into it. Also, they did this incredible cinema
-changing. Open the shutter. Open the shutter
all the way. It took all the motion blur. They
skipped the bleach process in developing the
film. And I don't know if they're going to 22
or 23 frames anywhere in there maybe, but I just
remember. Maybe it's just the open shutters.
It just means that instead of like the motion
blur is what makes something that moves across
the frame quickly. If you look at each frame,
it's like a blurred thing. And when you roll
those at 24 frames, it gives you. you this the
illusion that it moves across fluidly and if
you basically open the shut up so you get much
more light each frame takes a super sharp picture
and when you run those together like the piece
of dust And so the mortar explosions are going,
and you get that feeling that you're adrenalized
and you're seeing, you know what I mean? And
it's just, and nobody had ever done it. It's
just the master of the thing. Yeah. He understood
how to use the tools and combined with a great
idea. And it's, that's just masterful. Like,
that's just how you do it. There's nobody who
directs movies who doesn't go, ah, it's billboard.
Yeah. That's how you do it. It's, it's just like
you say, one of those things, a guy that's passionate
and also. you know, caring about something, you
know, it's that with that much passion is kind
of connected to greatness. Yeah. And it's, I
think, why we love to see that, whether, you
know, sports, fucking, you know, fighting or
whatever it is, there's something that makes
you kind of. love being alive, and also love
that person where you go, fuck, when you see
Michael Jordan, there was that whole movie that
we did air, it was really all about what does
it mean to be great? And how does it touch everybody
and change everybody and make people want to
fucking improve their own lives because somebody's
just better at that thing than anybody else in
the world. It's transfixing. I mean, I find that
really... Like, you know, people who are great
at something and the mystery of like, well, what
is that like? And what does that do to your life?
And how did you get that way? And what does it
take, you know? And what's the cost? Because
to truly be great at something, you have to kind
of almost abandon everything. I've seen that
in various ways, like in that kind of just empirical
personal study. I haven't seen anybody who I
think like qualifies for that who didn't also
seem to be really suffering. 100%. And you're
like, damn, you should be so happy. You're the
greatest. And the interviewers are always like,
how do you feel right now? And there's that sense
that either it's never finished or it's never
enough or they can't enjoy it. It's that line
we put in air where it's like, you have to be
that thing. You have to be that thing. It's kind
of a burden, too, in a way. 100%. And I just
see that. And that's why we want these heroes
and people who are great to, I don't know, you
know. have their life and have it all in hand.
There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that
happens too. Yeah. Like you said, there seems
to be a real cost. Well, there's always a massive
cost in personal relationships because there's
no way you have the time for other things. And
the obsession that you have to be the best at
something, you have to abandon almost all your
concern for everything else. You have to have
this single -minded focus. And that comes with
a cost for the rest of your life because you
damage relationships. You feel like a piece of
shit. And you see that up close and, like, that's
not admirable. Right. You don't give a fuck about
anybody else. no i do i just care about this
more you know it's like so imagine that you're
making the sacrifices and it's causing injury
to people and you know it and you don't want
to hurt them but you can't help it and you're
getting rewarded for it you know it's It's complicated,
yeah. It's crazy because you inspire all these
people that don't know you, and you ruin all
your relationships. Right, right, right. Maybe
that's why I said don't meet your heroes. There's
something to it, man. There really is. But it's
just we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching
greatness. There's a thing that hits you and
lights you up where you want to do more. You
want to be better. Whatever it is that you can
do, whatever it is you do do, you become more.
Whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown,
whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah,
it inspires you. Yeah, it lights you up. And
it's the fuel that we all live off of that we
consume to make our culture move forward. Yeah.
You know, there's like a sacrificial element
to it. The people that do it and we all feed
off of it, you know, and it feels like, well,
that's the person that doesn't get enough out
of it. Right. Right. But in great filming, how
many lives have been changed by decisions made
after great films? Like when I was a kid, I think
I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky
came out. I saw it and immediately ran around
the block. I've never won in my life. I was eating
raw eggs. I was like, this is going to change
my life. There's things that happen when you
see something truly great that it makes you want
to be better as a human being. I remember where
I was when I saw Denzel Washington play Malcolm
X. Went to the movies. Watched that movie. I
remember leaving. I was 19. I'm thinking, I want
to be a better man. I thought that in my mind,
you know, because of what I had seen this actor
do and the way, you know, that was the only real
conscious thought I had. But I remember having
it and kind of being surprised by it, you know.
And it does. That shit can, you know, it's really
touched me, you know, a lot of fucking people's
work. And that's why you get that, like. You
know, you see people and you want to let them
know, you know what I mean, and tell them. I
always think people come to me, oh, I love that
movie. I always feel like, ah, you don't have
to say that. You know what I mean? Right, right,
right. It makes me kind of uncomfortable, and
I don't ever put myself in with those figures
who I think are like, oh, but there's these towering
giants who have done this, you know. I don't
know. I finally kind of arrived to a place where
I was like, those uncomfortable, oh, I saw a
good one thing. It made me want to. go out to
Hollywood and write a script, and I think, oh,
shit, I don't know how to go. You know what I
mean? Like, you all right, man? At a certain
point, I figure, okay, you know what, whatever
it is, like, great. Well, it's the cost of your
fame, you know, that you have to, there's going
to be a bunch of people that are going to come
up to you and want to say those things to you.
And, like, wanting them to say those things to
you is the opposite of the mindset that you need
to make those things. Right, exactly. Which is,
it's so counterintuitive. Like once you become
really successful and you make a bunch of great
things, it's going to be awesome having all these
people come up to you like, no, no, no. I'm doing
something else right now. And I can't be all
wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your
fucking life. And also I can't be satisfied or
take any fucking joy in that because I don't
think I'm good enough yet. I need to fucking,
you know what I mean? Right. Never satisfied.
Yeah. You can't. And that's the darkness of trying
to do something great. You'll never be satisfied.
You see it in a lot of the fighters, the same
kind of thing, the great, great fighters. Well,
also fighters have. a very small window of greatness.
There's only like a certain amount of years where
you can burn the RPMs at the red line. And then
eventually the knees go, the back goes. Is it
earlier than other sports? It must be. Yes. I
think so. Because like Tom Brady is still elite.
I bet he could probably play football right now.
I bet he, you know, how old is Tom now? He's
probably 47 or 8 now probably. I bet he could
still play. Yeah, I mean, but that's a, yeah,
I mean, that's a very specific skill position
and the way he played it. Right. Running back,
no. Right, right. Cornerback. The elite levels
of MMA, especially with USADA testing and now
drug -free sport testing, when they are... Making
sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth
hormone and all these different things. Like,
you have nine years. You have nine years at peak
performance. That's legitimate. How long has
Jon Jones been going? Jon Jones is a freak of
all freaks. Because Jon Jones beat Daniel Cormier
when he was on Coke. That was one of the funniest
things he said in the press conference for the
rematch. Daniel was talking shit. He goes, I
beat you when I was on Coke. I mean, he was getting
arrested. He was partying. When he fought Gustafsson,
he beat Gustafsson, and he didn't train at all.
I talked to his trainer. He's like, he didn't
even show up at the gym. He was fucking never
there. He was never training. He could just show
up and beat everybody's ass. I saw a thing on
my Instagram feed of a fighter, and I don't know
who it was, but he was a heavyweight. He goes,
I had the chance to spar with Jon Jones, to work
with Jon Jones. And he goes, I knew about it
months ahead of time. He goes, I got my nutrition.
Everything was absolutely flawless. I got my
sleep. Everything was on. He goes, I show up
at the gym that morning. He goes, it's me and
five other guys. He goes, he comes in. I think
he went to sleep at 4 in the morning or something.
He was out all night. And he goes, he ran through
all six of us. That's my buddy Brennan Schaub.
Is that who it was? Okay, yeah. It was the funniest
story. And he goes, and then I just knew. There's
levels. That's a level. But imagine being that
elite and realizing there's another level. Yeah.
Oh yeah. Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight and
John wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light
heavyweight. It was a lower weight class and
he just beat everybody's ass. And he said, this
is his warmup. I mean, he has a unique aptitude
for MMA, but also he had two brothers that were
super athletes. Yeah, played for the Patriots.
And Arthur. And so these guys are super athletes.
And so they're beating the shit out of each other
all the time. So they're like constantly in competition
with elite athletes from the time he was a child.
So he was just so tuned into competition and
he was so intelligent. Like his fight IQ was.
above and beyond everyone's. And he would study
tape meticulously. Well, that spinning kick that
he did. Stipe Miocic. Stipe, where he said he,
and I think he thanked his taekwondo coach, and
he said he had been working on this one specific
kick from both sides because of something he
saw on the tape. And he got it off and hit this
guy so. Hard. Not even on his liver side. He
hit him on the other side, and you see it shudder
through his entire, like, organ structure. Yeah,
his heel was deep into his body cavity. It was
so gnarly. But he just practiced this one specific...
And he was like, and he even said, he goes, it
is a devastating shot. Like, there's not a human
being who could take that. No, it's like getting
hit by a car. Yeah. But getting hit by a car
in one spot on your body, you know what I mean?
The size of a foot, the size of a 13 foot. Oh,
yeah, here it is. Watch this. He sets him up.
Boom. It's just. It's like, yeah, no, it's over,
it's over, it's over. And this is John moving
up to heavyweight because light heavyweight wasn't
a challenge anymore. He decided to become a two
-division champion. I mean, John was a freak.
You see it running through. And by the way, that
was almost a little bit glancing because he caught
him with a bent leg. Right, right. It wasn't
even fully extended, which, you know. was even
more devastating. But John realized that as a
heavyweight, he didn't have the power that he
had at light heavyweight. And so he said, the
most powerful kick is a spinning back kick. So
I'm just gonna work on that kick over and over
again, because that's the one tool that I have
that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot.
Wow, okay. That's just intelligence. It's not
just the physicals, but he's also like a genius.
Oh, he's a genius. Well, he's also like... He's
the most meticulous when it comes to game planning
and study. He will not take a short notice fight.
Even a guy that he can fucking beat any day of
the week. You can wake him up at 3 o 'clock in
the morning. He can fuck that guy up. He will
not take that fight unless he gets a full training
camp to prepare for that fight. Well, it's just
greatness. But John's troubled. John's been arrested
a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy
shit. He's a wild fella. And that pursuit of
greatness, I'm sure, has cost him a lot of shit
in his personal life. But when he knocks D -Pay
out and then did the Trump dance in front of
the whole world, for that moment, he's on top
of the world. Again, it's like the same thing.
As soon as you get back, like, what's next? You
know? There's another challenge. It doesn't matter
how many people love you now. Like, it's not
good enough. There's someone else looming. You
got to beat this guy. That seems like a kind
of an agonizing thing to both have the, like,
complete compulsion to have to get to the next
level. And the next level keeps fucking moving
the goalposts. I'll never forget. I interviewed
Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost
the welterweight title to BJ Penn. And I'm interviewing
him inside the Octagon. He said, I'm going to
be honest with you. It was actually a relief.
And he goes, the pressure of being the champion
and having someone chasing you for so ever in
the whole world chasing you. He goes, I'm going
to be honest. I thought it was an incredibly
brave moment for a guy to say that who is, you
know, just this fucking. amazing human being
this warrior to say i just got to be honest it's
a relief losing my title feels like a relief
and i was like wow like that that is so so brave
to be that honest in front of the because everybody's
like you just got your ass kicked it's like i'm
this is a relief you know i took a burden off
my back i'll be back i'm gonna regroup but i
needed that i needed to just to step off the
fucking top of the hill for a little while. You
get a breath. Jesus Christ. You've got to be
like a great, actually relieved to be able to
say something like that. It's kind of a gift.
Instead of feeling like you've got to hide or
pretend it and go, yeah, I'm relieved. It was
a lot to carry. Well, the thing about fighting
is everything you try to hide gets exposed. You're
exposed completely during camp because they're
doing these round, well, they take like. Sorry,
I was here. Yeah, yeah, smoke up. They're taking
like, you know, five guys. and they're rotating
them in with you. So you're doing five rounds
with fresh guys. So you've got one guy who is
fucking warmed up, getting ready for you, and
then you're fucking out of breath. They'll give
you a 30 -second break instead of a minute, and
then they're throwing in these monsters, and
you're exposed. You're getting beat in training.
You're getting smothered in training. You're
exhausted. You're always reaching your limits
because the only way to surpass those limits
is to hit them. You've got to hit them, and then
they've got to— figure out where that limit is
and okay next week we're going to do one extra
round we're going to do this we're going to do
that we're going to do more strength and conditioning
we're going to push you past wherever your capacity
is right now so you're always breaking you're
always you're always at the point where you can
do no more because it's the only way to and you
can only maintain that like the condition that
they get in when they step into the octagon it's
not possible to maintain that no right right
you can only get you have to aim at that one
moment and yeah yeah yeah you have to peak and
then if you fuck up and oh overtrained which
a lot of those guys do just because they're such
savages they never want to leave the gym then
they don't peak right and then they come in and
they're exhausted they didn't recover properly
and then in between rounds they're too tired
and they can't go out for the next round they're
too beat up that happens too I imagine that level
of exhaustion has to be just insane when you
overtrain in an actual championship. And you
realize you can't bounce back, and this guy is
fucking blasting your legs with kicks and hitting
you with punches, and you can't get out of the
way anymore. Who was it? Was it Khabib who said
that they should just do 25 minutes? Oh, a lot
of people said that. I mean, that's a— Songs
are playing? What's going on? I must have just
hit my fucking technology. The Teske brothers
playing in my pocket. That's hilarious. Sorry
about that. Well, Hoist Gracie always said that.
Like, that was how he fought in the early days.
They just straight 25 minutes. Because he was
like, look, he goes, if we're on the ground,
he goes, I don't want them to stand back up again
and go in between rounds. And he goes, I need
time to cook them. That's what he would say.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what jujitsu is all
about. Jujitsu is all about staying one step
ahead of you until you become exhausted and,
you know, and then they eventually finish you.
Like a, like a, you're just fucking constricted.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the real, that's, but
you know, there's this balance of like making
it. for people to watch. I've been a proponent
of no stand -ups. Don't ever stand anybody up.
When a guy takes you down, you get an advantage
at the beginning of the round anyway because
a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't
earn it. So you should never get stood up in
a fight. I don't care if the guy's doing nothing.
If he's holding you down and you can't get up,
that's how it should be. It's more realistic,
but it's the balance of it being a sport. People
want to watch. Yeah, because when people grab
someone and take them to the ground and nothing
happens, people go, boo. You hear it in the audience.
and then the referee gets a little motivated
and he stands people up, and I'm always like,
ah, don't stand them up. I never thought of it
that way, that the beginning of the round starts
to the advantage of the striker. Always, always,
always. You're in a position you didn't earn.
You never got back up. I think they should put
them right back to where they were at the end
of the round because it's one fight. It's not
five fights. So if you start it standing up at
the beginning of each round, that's a new fight.
Yeah, right. In a way. What you're pitching,
like, how quickly would the UFC go out of business?
Real quick. 30 seconds, they're on the ground,
and then it's 24 and a half minutes. Dude, I'm
a terrible businessman. I would give the fighters
more money. I would fuck up the whole business
model. I would get rid of the cage. I would have
them all fight in a basketball court and just
put mats on the ground in the basketball court.
I don't think you should have a cage. I think
the cage gets in the way. It becomes a way to
get back up because you press your back up against
the cage. You can use it to stand back up again.
And you're in the middle of the center of a mat.
It's very difficult to get back up, and that's
realistic. You're using a foreign object to help
you perform. But there's the whole macho thing
about people fighting in a cage, and it's like
they lock you in there. Yeah. It's just, but
I mean, in terms of. like inspirational performances
and things that you would you see like the human
spirit elevated to the the highest possible place
when two very skilled men or women are Fighting
in a cage where they prepared for this for three
fucking months and then you know the referees
like are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go and
it's like that moment like is it's not not like
anything else in all sports I think that's the
moment that like people show up for Yeah. Because
they build the intensity. It's the same with,
like, the old Tyson fights or whatever. Oh, yeah.
Like, now it's going to happen. Yeah. And you
can't help but have that feeling once it, you
know. And, yeah, some fights end up being disappointing,
whatever, but that moment is always there. Well,
Tyson was a crazy example of what we were talking
about with greatness because, like, you could
dedicate your whole life. You could fucking get
up in the morning at the right time. You could
eat all the right foods. You could do all the
right training. But then you see that fucking
guy. You're like, oh, no. There's nothing I can
do. I have no chance. You know, by looking at
him, so he had just a look in his eye. It was
one of the only fighters where you just see the
other guy was scared. Usually they at least hold
themselves together where they come off like,
oh, I don't know, this guy looks pretty tough.
Guys would fight Tyson and just – it would start
and they'd feel that moment too. Oh, shit. They're
letting this tiger out and here he comes. And
it was like – Well, we're old enough to remember
when he was in his prime and those fights were
like executions. You didn't want to pay for the
pay -per -view because they were so fast. I swear.
I mean, Jamie might be able to prove me wrong,
but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart
and they cut to his wife and she was crying.
And this is when they're coming to the center
of the ring. Oh, my God. But by the way, for
good reason. This man might kill my husband.
Right. You know what I mean? We're certainly
going to beat the fuck out of him. And she knows
it. And the world knows it. And the guys were
ready to quit. Remember that dude, Hurricane
or whatever? White kid who fought him? He's McKinley
when he came in. His guy couldn't wait to throw
the towel in. He had it ready. You know, he was
ready to go. All right, that's it. The bell rings.
He picks up the towel. You got one job. Save
your guy's life. You know what I mean? McKinley's
fucked up now, too. When you hear him talk, it's
rough. It's rough to hear. Oh, really? Yeah,
I saw him get interviewed recently. That's the
dark side of the sport. MMA and of fighting.
It was a CTE. I had Johnny Knoxville on here
yesterday, and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious
16 times. Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's what I said.
And I'm like, holy shit, man. And he seems normal.
He doesn't seem like he's got brain damage. Now,
when you're talking to guys and you know they
have brain damage, they're slurring their words
and they're still fighting. Their words all mumble
together. You have no idea how much they're struggling.
And they're going to be struggling in a... downhill
slope for the rest of their life. It's not going
to get better. It's going to get way worse. Because
the real brain damage occurs like 10 years after
the injuries. That's when it really sets in.
It just keeps getting worse. I mean, there's
some therapies that they can do now. They do,
and Knoxville did some of it, like this magnetic
therapy that they do that re -stimulates neuron
growth. And oddly enough, mushrooms, like psilocybin
has been shown to regenerate. Mushrooms all of
a sudden cure a whole bunch of shit. I know.
Well, probably always has. All of a sudden they're
acknowledging it. Well, one of the things that's
opening the doors for them to acknowledge it
is soldiers because it's always been kind of
like a left -wing thing to be into psychedelics.
But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD
and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from – Bombs
blowing up and IEDs and concussions. And the
only thing that's helping them is psychedelics.
So it's kind of like in Texas, former Governor
Rick Perry has started the Ibogaine Initiative.
So they're using Ibogaine to help all of these
different soldiers, which is ironically the drug
that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Muskie was
on when he was running for president. Oh, really?
Yeah. Remember when he sank Ed Muskie? What is
Ibogaine? It's from the aboga tree. And it is
a psychedelic that is in no way recreational.
It is a very difficult experience. It's not fun
for anybody. It's like a 24 -hour trip. I haven't
done it, but my friends that have done it say
that it's basically like you see your entire
life play out before you. You see where all your
problems come from. You see where all of your
emotional hitches are. Jesus. Yeah, and with
addictions, it has an 80%, I think it's 84%,
with one treatment, they quit whatever they're
hooked on. What? Not only that, it rewires the...
brain. So the physical pathways to addiction,
like someone who's addicted to opiates, gone,
completely severed. So you literally don't have
a physical addiction to opiates anymore. So with
one treatment, 80 plus percent of people. That's
incredible. With two treatments, it's in the
90s. That's amazing. It's amazing. And it's been
illegal. you know, since like 1970 in this country,
the sweeping psychedelics. You say Rick Perry
has like a clinic or whatever? Well, Rick Perry,
because he's worked with soldiers and because
he's worked with a lot of veterans that, you
know, and he's a very compassionate and intelligent
man. He realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong
about all this psychedelic stuff. And so he started
getting behind this Ibogaine initiative. They
passed it in Texas and now they're doing it with
soldiers and they're going to do it with police
officers. And I mean, police officers experience
more PTSD. Like I have a good friend who, was
a cop in austin and he said and he was also in
the military and he said what i saw in the military
was nothing compared to what i saw as a police
officer really he goes i was seeing death and
violence on a daily basis he goes when you're
deployed he goes yeah you're good you're gonna
see some horrible shit but you're gonna see some
horrible shit mixed in you know over a course
of time where you know you go out and things
go live it goes like Every day. Every day you're
going directly to somebody who's having the worst
moment of their life. And every day you're pulling
someone over and they might shoot you. Like you
have no idea. You're pulling up to tinted windows.
You don't know what the fuck is going on. You're
running the plate. The license is expired. You
have no idea who's in the car. You don't know
anything. And you've seen all the videos. We've
all seen videos of cops getting shot down like
when they're pulling over a car. We've all seen
it. And so these guys are living with this fucking
PTSD all the time. And then they have to. live
in real life. They're supposed to go home and
they're supposed to just be a normal dad and
a normal neighbor. And their fucking head is
just a hurricane of chaos. And Ibogaine has been
very beneficial for those people to just sort
of come down and try to find the root of all
this stuff and get them off pills and get them
on the straight. That's great. It's amazing.
I don't know why we got on the mushrooms. Well,
Ibogaine, because... During the presidential
elections, he started spreading these rumors.
And it's in the documentary. What is that documentary?
Is it Fear and Loathing? Gonzo. Gonzo. That's
right. In that documentary, Gonzo, he talks about
it. So he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett.
And he goes, yeah, there was a rumor running
around that Ed Muskie was on Ibogaine. And I
knew about it because I started that rumor. I
sold it to him. So the guy completely cracked.
So this guy was like a frontrunner for the president,
and he fucking completely cracked because everybody
thought that he was on drugs. Because Hunter
S. Thompson was just running around saying there's
these Brazilian witch doctors who are coming
in to treat this guy. It's crazy shit. That's
great. They were like, and Hunter would know.
But it's crazy that he chose Ibogaine, too, because
Ibogaine is like, it's not a recreational drug.
a drug of addiction. It's literally a drug that
stops addiction. He was the guy that would have
the whole book full of these esoteric drugs you've
never heard of. The image is really casual way.
Of course, four of us stopped to get Ibogaine
at the one gas station that sold needles and
nothing. Yeah, sure. No, of course you did. But
it does help people that have brain damage as
well. It's supposed to cause some sort of neuro
regeneration. There's stuff out there that can
help people. A large percentage of these fighters
are silently suffering, and we don't ever hear
about it. They say it's supposed to be that the
argument is because they're not using a glove,
like that football is supposed to be. Wasn't
that the sort of rationale that you were going
to have less impact in boxing because the boxing
gloves? No, but remember, it's all like the subconcussive
blows. It's not necessarily the one shot knocking
you out as much as the repeated kind of like
small. Like a little bit of brain bleed. I'm
sure that's like, they're all bad for you. You
know what I mean? Like aversion. Knocks to the
head are not a good thing to be avoided. Well,
it's also what you take in training, too. We're
only considering what happens during a fight.
If a guy has 40, 50 MMA fights, that's 40. How
many rounds does he have right in the gym? Oh,
training camp is fucking brutal. And depending
upon how intelligent your camp is, like, some
people are really smart, and they'll spar where
they're not hitting each other hard, and then
maybe one day of the week they go live, but you
do it with trusted, you know, they're very close
to you. These are people that you care about
and love, so they're not going to try to hurt
you on purpose. But sometimes not. Sometimes
you're in a hostile gym and, you know, you've
got to spar with people you don't even know.
They're from other countries. You have a big
name. They're trying to take you out, you know.
But the amount of damage these guys take. I mean,
I don't know if football is better or worse.
The thing about football is. the big impacts
are way worse. Because when you've got a 300
-pound super athlete that's fucking full tilt.
All the way from across the field. Boom! Running
start. Yeah, you're getting hit by a truck. And
that, but that doesn't... It's not targeted necessarily
at your head. So it's like what is better and
what is worse. Boxing is bad. It's like you have
less options. MMA is slightly better because
especially if you're a grappler, you can take
guys down and you can beat them up on the ground.
But it's ultimately you're paying a price. Make
a fucking living. Yeah. Sure. But for that glory,
for that one moment when they win and the fucking
16 ,000 people are on their feet screaming, there's
probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce
it. And those guys chased that high their entire
life. And then after it's over, they feel oddly
detached. Right. Nothing ever rises to that level
again. Right. You can make films until you're
100 years old. You can make great films forever.
You can do the thing that you love forever. They
have a little window, a little window of greatness.
That's the really tough thing about being an
athlete. We were talking to Pete Sampras that
time. We met Sampras years ago. And he was like,
we were probably, I don't know how, we were 30.
He was 32 or something like that. And he was
kind of, we were like, oh, my God. He had all
these fucking, you know. wins and grand slams,
and he had a kind of vaguely, like, yeah, he
was like, yeah, you guys look, I'm about to retire.
I'm finished. And we were, you know, young guys.
Just getting started, you know what I mean? Also,
the thing is, you get better at your job the
more you do it. And so it's that thing with the
athlete. I was having this conversation the other
day. It's like, you have all the physical skills
at the beginning, but you become better at your
sport as your skills are declining. The body
just doesn't want to do it anymore. You've got
to just come. Come Greg Maddux, you know, and
compensate with all the tricks and location.
And that's why that drama of, like, the aging
athlete is so powerful. It's like, do we still
have it in me? Can I still do it? How long, you
know, is what I've learned enough to compensate
for what I've lost, you know? Well, there's an
interesting story about Vitor Belfort. So Vitor
Belfort was, he won the UFC heavyweight tournament
when he was 19 years old. That was like the first
event I ever worked at in 1997. I mean, he was
like one of the all -time greats for sure. But
as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting
to decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters to
use testosterone replacement therapy. And boy,
did he fucking use it. I don't know what his
levels were, but they were like superhuman levels.
And there was a moment in time for a few years
where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy.
And people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years
because he was fucking terrifying because he
has the mind of a veteran. Incredible amount
of experience. But now his body is moving like
a 25 year old. And so he was just. annihilating
people, just lighting people on fire. So they're
not allowed to use testosterone? No, they can't
use anything. No. How about peptides? Can they
use peptides? Nope. Nope, not even peptides.
They're trying to take that and reform that.
There's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what
they actually do. I mean, all it's allowing you
to do is soft tissue injuries, heal quicker,
and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones.
So instead of adding exogenous hormones, you're
allowing your body to produce them more naturally,
and it just makes you more healthy. For a very
unhealthy job where you're getting hurt all the
time, it's going to be better for the sport,
better for the athletes to allow them to all
use it. And it's also – there's no long -term
damage it's going to do like steroids where it
shuts down your endocrine system. So I hope they
reform it. But the idea was that there's so many
fucking loopholes and so many people cheat. Big
camps used to hire scientists. So they had a
scientist on staff that was not only – What did
he do? Yeah, exactly. Not only procuring stuff
that would slip by the test because there's like
the Balco stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's stuff
probably right now. That people are using that's
slipping through. And there's a lot of experts
that have, like, one of the things is animal
-derived testosterone. So testosterone, they
use a carbon isotope test, I think. I believe
that's what they use to figure out where the
testosterone came from. So if your testosterone
is, like, at a very high level, they test all
your other ratios. They go, well, no, it all
seems likely. He's an outlier. He just has naturally
high testosterone. like synthetic testosterone
is derived from a wild yam, believe it or not.
Really? Yeah, it's not animal -derived testosterone.
So the composite of it varies when they run the
tests on it and they can determine. They can
determine that it's a yam -based testosterone.
It's exogenous, not endogenous. It's a yam and
they're fighting. It's not him. But if they can
figure out a way to, and there's a lot of. proof
of concept of this can they figure out a way
to extract testosterone from animal sources bull
testosterone something like that well the taurine
they used to inject Hitler with taurine you know
Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig for this
one doctor who tried a bunch of shit on him and
one of the things they did was like inject him
with bull testicles and stuff to try to keep
him virile yeah but but there probably are athletes
right now that are using some shit that they
haven't figured out yet so Give them any loopholes
at all. They're like, no, no, no. Fucking no
loopholes. No IVs. No nothing. No IVs. No IVs.
Vitamins and. Right. But the problem with IVs
is you can mask testosterone and mask. by over
flooding the body with liquids. So if you overflow.
Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the ratio is
high because you add more water. Yes. You would
just fill them up with saline and then when they
go to piss, like, nope, clean. Look at the ratio.
Because it's like so much water is being processed
through the body that it doesn't have time to
show the testosterone. So there's a way to mask
it, especially with like things that you would
add to the IV. So there's no, you can, it's only,
Food and approved supplements through, like,
really high -level labs like Thorne, like Thorne
supplements where it's third -party tested. So
they can't do anything. But for a while, they
let them do it. And those TRT VTOR days were
my favorite fights to watch. Did they stop doing
fighting because they thought it was, like, advantaging
certain people or shit happened that they're
like, this is fucked up? Well, look at the difference.
That's TRT VTOR on the left, and that's him on
the right when they made him get off of it. Look
at the difference. I mean, that's fucking stunning.
On the left, though, dude, that motherfucker
was terrifying. When Luke Rockhold fought him,
he told me, he goes, dude, when I stood next
to him at the fucking weigh -ins, he had muscles
on his teeth. He goes, this fucking dude was
so jacked, he was so scared. I was like, what
the fuck is he on? Because he knew he was on
something. It's just, it's cheating. It really
is because you can jack your levels way above
a normal human beings. Cause that's what a lot
of guys, there was a few fighters that were pulled
from cards because like, say if a really high
levels, like 1100, they were testing like 18,
1900. They were like. People that have never
lived before. They were like a science project.
A different species. And they were insane confidence.
Insane confidence. Because they were essentially
like a raging gorilla. They were just insanely
confident. And just so fired up. They couldn't
wait to smash somebody. Because they were just
fucking maniacal. They were a berserker. So it's
not a person anymore. Now you're a science project.
There are rare outliers. Like Tyson when he was
in his prime. This rare physical special. And
like that's part of the game, but that's God,
you know, that's nature This is not you know,
Balco labs and so they won't allow them to do
anything anymore And that's why it's because
too many and Vitor was one of the guys that tested
like way over the line and then they But that's
what they're gonna do if you say if you say it's
legal they're gonna take it better and you know
Yeah, if you say oh you did one CC a week. They're
like I heard five And these guys are just training
five times a day and then never get tired, and
they recover like that. And they never have to
worry about soft tissue injuries because they
heal like you're a fucking six -year -old. Right.
You know, you just... Your body just like...
You're like fucking Wolverine. Yeah. Oh, yeah,
man. Well, that's the thing about peptides, too,
the Wolverine stack. BP -157 and TB -500. I don't
know if you ever get injured. If you ever get
injured, get immediately on BP -157 and TB -500.
I didn't hear about TB -500. What's that one?
Thymus and Beta -500. Oh, yes. In conjunction
with BPC - It is a fucking phenomenal stack,
and it just really helps injuries. I didn't know
they called it the Wolverine stack. That's what
they call it, the Wolverine stack. For healing?
Yeah, because you fucking heal incredibly well.
I was talking to a pro football player who pulled
his hamstring. He's like, dude, I shot that shit
right into my hamstring for two weeks, and I
was right back on the field. Wow. I was like,
that's nuts. I go, what is a normal rehab? He
goes, three months. He goes, in two weeks, I
was back on the field. I go, what the fuck? He
goes, I don't know how bad the injury was. He
goes, but to me, it's like, fuck. I pulled my
hamstring. I'm fucked now for X amount of days.
He goes, in two weeks later, I was playing full
tilt. I'm like, that's nuts. And going right
into the area of the injury. Right into it. Some
people think you don't have to do that. They
think it's systemic, so you just stick it in
your fat on your side. But he's like, no. And
most athletes will tell you the best benefit
is local. Shoot it locally into the area. Like
cortisone or whatever. Yeah, cortisone. But cortisone
just masks it. Not only that, it has a tendency,
if you do it too many times, to weaken tendons.
And so it could actually exacerbate the problem
because it takes away the pain. Right. Yeah.
It takes away the pain. But, I mean, you know,
then there's the enhanced games that are coming
out in Vegas this year. I know. My friend had
that idea a long time ago. He was like, you should
just do the drug Olympics for cash. He goes,
do it in Vegas for cash. And then the enhanced
games came. They're doing it. I sent him a tag.
I was like, they're doing it. Yeah. I'm down.
Let's see what a human being can do. That's what
I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and Sammy
Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs,
it was one of the most exciting times in baseball.
It was pretty exciting. That's why they didn't
do anything. They knew it wasn't a fucking mystery
to anybody. But everybody's tuning in. The Bash
brothers played baseball on a strike. They almost
fucking destroyed that league and then people
started watching. And then Bonds is like, well,
these two fucking guys are hitting this many
home runs. I'm the best player in baseball, which
he was, and when he did it, it lights out. He
had a year where he only swung and missed 26
times. 162 games. Three and a half at -bats a
game. Only swung and missed. I mean, that's just...
And, yeah, McGuire would just move his wrist
to get the ball out of the park. And it was fun
to watch. And when people say steroids don't
make you a better athlete, well, they maybe don't
make you a better athlete. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But if you're fucking Barry Bonds. If you're
already an elite athlete, yeah. If you let Jon
Jones do all the juice he wants, he'd be fighting
until he's 50 and fucking people up. If you say,
Jon, we've really come to our senses. This sport's
all about excitement. I want to give the people
what they want. Let people make it. choices based
on their own discretion. Oh, it's like that.
Welcome back. Welcome back. Then all of a sudden
John looks like Vitor in that picture. He'd be
undefeated. By the way, John beat Vitor when
Vitor was in his prime and Vitor caught John
in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out,
hyperextended, popped it, went backwards. You
can see the video of it. His elbow is going that
way. He wouldn't tap and then beat him in the
next round. With one arm. Yep. One arm. His arm
was fucked for like a year after that. Yeah.
Yeah. Give that man some steroids. Let's see
what he can do. Steroids. Let him be the king
of the world. Yeah. The dream team. It's like,
you know, the first time the pros went to the
Olympics or whatever, the year's 90s. Oh, yeah.
It was so fun. Won every game by 70 points. Yeah.
It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of
fun. It was fun to watch. Well, the argument
for that made sense, though, because, like, these
other people are being compensated in their countries.
Oh, yeah. I had no problem with them. By the
way, now it's got more. That last Olympic championship,
that was a great game against France. That was
fabulous, you know? I mean, yeah, they're going
to. wreck some smaller countries and stuff, but
okay, you're playing pros, they're playing pros.
The whole definition of amateurism has gotten
a little bit, like, you know. Yes. People find,
like, a convenient definition of it according
to what's there. You see in college sports, it's
changing and stuff. Like, look, I got no problem
if you're going to apply the rules evenly, but
sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse
for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the
TV deal, I'm like, no, no, no, you guys, you're
getting an education. Right. It's like a little
bit like, yeah, you're getting an education,
you guys are making a lot of money because. people
want to see Nebraska play. It's exploitation.
Yeah. And I'm glad they've changed that with
college sports because these guys are the reason
why you're filling up the seats. And they deserve
that money. And not even one of them is going
to be in the NFL. Right. You know what I mean?
Some of them, that's their window to make that
fucking money. You know what I mean? Like, it's
hard. It's hard. And the risk of catastrophic
injury is always there. It's constant. Constant.
Yeah. And the metrics for it's like, what is
it, a two and a half year career or something?
Yeah. Depending on your position. But, I mean,
it's. That seems just fair and obvious. You can
pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college,
but not to like, you know, come on. Well, that's
the great thing about doing something where you're
not relying on your body, like acting. You can
kind of do it forever. Yeah, keep going until
you lose it. You know what I mean? It's really,
yeah, it's great. And it's got its own competitive
aspect. Of course. Like okay great if it's if
you get a really better yourself, and then the
expectation is well I got to do something that's
interesting enough that people want to watch
it though. That's the proposition How do you
guys decide like on projects that you choose
like I'm sure you have so many options now like
what what? makes you say this is what i'm going
to spend the next six months doing it's really
i mean there are a bunch of different factors
like like the director is being the most important
one but but if you read a script and and like
we've read so many thousands and thousands of
scripts and written so many scripts and worked
on so many movies that that if if we read something
and it and it it's that thing we were talking
about earlier you know you get that get that
kind of emotional something happens when you
read it you go okay well then you then you pay
attention to it maybe read it again go wait a
minute you know if it if it moves you in that
in that way then you know ultimately the big
decision is saying yes because because you're
going to spend yeah it's the last point of which
you have total control right you know and then
you're in then you're in and and you're and you're
in whether it's good or bad i mean i've been
on those movies where i knew A month into a six
-month shoot that, like, this is not going to
work. And that is the fucking worst. What is
that like? That's the worst. I came to think
of that. They're going to shoot us all when it
comes out. It's all bad. It's going to be 80
16 -hour days in a row. post -production period
that's going to be pretty fraught and then it's
going to come out and we're going to get fucking
crushed. And then you're going to have to sell
it. You're going to have to walk the fucking
plank and sit down with access. You know what
I mean? Like, so, saw the movie. How important
is that stuff still today? The press stuff. Is
that still important? It is. I don't know to
what degree each specific thing is. It's kind
of ironic because we were talking about coming
on this show today. I was like, doing this show
will be more meaningful than the rest of the
shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie.
We spent this whole week in New York doing, I
don't know how many interviews, the quick ones
with all the outlets. 105 -minute interviews,
all the evening shows, the day shows. All that
stuff. This just given how many people listen
to the show. will be more meaningful. We think,
I mean, that's our, we were speculating. Historically,
right? If you look at it, that's because they've
changed to like, all of it feels kind of produced
and forced and advertised and people have become
resistant to anything that feels kind of like
a gimmick and a shtick and you go on and you
do your song and dance and they say a thing and
it looks great and nobody cares. Like they're
looking to go either because somebody they know
says it's interesting or somebody that they trusted
and a trusted person is in like your, like you
said, your feed, right? And it's your friend
or. your cousin or it's or they affix that to
somebody which has become a more rare thing like
who's a like a legitimate neutral arbiter right
who i can't predict what they're going to say
before i go there there are a few of those fewer
and fewer of those people in the world even those
are proliferation of more and more voices and
i it's kind of paradoxical like The form of entertainment
is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So
you're like a seven second, you know, we're an
advertising company. We do most of the spots
that we release, like 15 second spots, six second
spots for social, the ones most people see. And
then there's this one form, which is like long
form discussions that are whatever, two hours
long. And the amazing to me is, you know, in
a world where it seems like you can't get people
to pay attention more than, you know, a few seconds,
there's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's
like. This form, and that's why these are getting
more popular. Obviously, you have this massive
audience. And it's kind of flying in the face
of the whole other trend. And I think, and I
don't know, that it probably has something to
do with, like, who do I think is authentic? And
am I actually willing to extend? My two hours
of my time to sit there and listen through and
that an argument that people probably do appreciate
and understand conversations that have context
and nuance and where there's like a back and
forth. They're just much more selective about
who they're willing to kind of give that sort
of. voice to in their life it's also the voice
of the public too because when people start talking
about things online and things go viral online
and people just start like saying how great they
love the film or how great this album is or something
like that it just takes off organically now yeah
and that has more more weight than anything right
you feel like somebody else who obviously has
no dog in the fight is go hey this is great you
should see it i'm the same thing if i hear somebody
tell me like you know who i respect yeah you
got to see that thing that means more to me than
anything right because i believe that and so
if the closer you can get to that which is why
i think the act of a like telling the same you
know like telling the same like story about you
should go see the movie to a bunch of people
with a certain like limited reach it's just it's
just not that efficient, but you have to, because
it's like, well, we sat down with our own, and
talked about the, you know, and you kind of do
that ostensibly because it means a little bit
more in that, in that market. But I think ultimately
it's, it's like more and more people see, realize
they're being sold to see through the. fucking
act in this sort of bullshit. They recognize
that, you know, you go out and sell every movie,
you know what I mean? The good and the bad. And
then we got to decide, well, which one and who
can you count on? Well, it's mostly going to
be that like the word of mouth, your friend.
And now you can see that person in your media
experience, you know? Yeah. And I think it's
also. We know that when you're sitting down with
extra, that's just their job to sit down with
people. They're not doing it because they want
to. They got told, go talk to that person. And
we got told, go talk to them. So they go do the
ritual, and they say the thing they say, and
we say the thing we say. And everyone goes home
and says we did our job. That's the benefit of
an independent podcast is that like with me,
I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk
to. It's just like I literally do the whole thing
on my phone. I go, oh, yeah, that sounds cool.
And that's it. But like that, I think, means
a lot. This person is making this choice. And
I've listened to it a bunch. And I actually find
myself agreeing with it a lot of the time. So,
all right, I'll give it a shot. I think also
like this format, like at least I know why. Why
I started listening to podcasts was because in
the world, like, the divisive kind, the way everybody
was talking, these sound bites and all this shit,
and it was just, like, the ability to just listen
to human beings talk, often who had different
points of view but, like, had a civil conversation.
Yeah. It was, like, it was such a welcome thing,
you know, given the kind of the hysterical kind
of, you know. frenzy of divisiveness that's kind
of, it just feels, it's just like, you know,
it's like if I open my phone and look at the
news, I'm just like, fuck. It's like, put it
down. It's just, it's like, I feel my cortisol
level go up. And to actually hear people, listen
to people I know I don't agree with, but listen
to them and just think about it. You know what
I mean? Approach life with a little bit of humility.
Hold on to what you believe, obviously, but Keep
listening. It's also there's not a lot of opportunities
in the real world to have long conversations
with people. So people are kind of starving for
that. I know. Isn't it funny that this has become
the shared cultural, like we listen to that podcast
and then actually experience that. And also,
why don't people trust the media? Well, because
the media doesn't do that because they compress
it. And because the truth, it's money. Because
actually doing that is not with money. It's just
ratings and the perceived idea that like, well,
if you simplify it or you position it one way
or the other, You engender outrage. That's simple
or just, you know, pure one sided ideas that
are that are simple. You know, but the news used
to be the idea was, look, here's the FCC. We're
going to let these networks broadcast their shows
and make money on it. But here's the deal. You
got to give an hour of that and lose money on
that hour to tell the news and try to tell it
objectively. Then it started to be, no, you got
to make money for that hour, too. And if you're
going to make money, that's a different incentive
than. tell the truth or report things or any
of those things. And people try to hybridize
them. But at the end of the day, you're a more
successful reporter if more people watch you
because advertisers pay more. And then they're
doing the same thing, looking at their data.
What are people watching? What kinds of stories?
And I think this is simple answers because you're
just making it into a profit game. Those incentives
are not aligned with just trying to get down
to like even reporting basic. Facts. Yeah, it
was a weird time. It's like we have more access
to information than ever before, but so much
of it is just horseshit. Yeah. You know, it's
hard to... Stay balanced. And I think that's
why it's good to listen to the people. Just talk.
And then you recognize the flaws in their thinking.
You feel ego. You feel deception, bullshit. It's
true. People will reveal themselves. We actually
don't need that many editorialists to be constantly
telling us what to think and how to think. People
actually have pretty good instincts. If someone's
bullshitting, you'll eventually kind of hang
themselves. Like you said, you'll get that vibe.
After a while, he kind of starts. repeating his
shtick. And I kind of didn't really talk about
what I was wondering about. And you form your
own, that's like forming your own judgment. Pete
Buttigieg actually talked about that being dangerous
on podcasts. He's like, cause you, you go on
there and you have your points, but you'll get
revealed over the course of a few hours. Like
you can only stick to these lines. Yeah. You
can only be talking points and bullshit for then.
And then what happens is people just, like, there
was an art to, like, look at how great they're
communicating. They stick to the message and
they do their points. Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds.
But any longer than that, it just starts to look
like a fucking robot on, you know. And like I
said, what we need to follow through with, you
know, like, yeah, no, I saw you do the same hand
gesture and the same bit with that. But, you
know. Sometimes you find out they're full of
shit just by having them talk about other things.
You know, like, tell me, do you like cooking?
You know, like, just like, and then you just
see, like, some concocted. They're thinking,
what makes me look good about cooking? Exactly.
Well, I'll tell you what, because what would
the focus group say? That's exactly it. Do I
cook or do I not? Does that make me feminine
or does it make me open to cultural? Yeah. What
do you like to cook, man? I don't cook. Well,
that's the other thing about people that are
online too much is they're so concerned. with
other people's opinions, that they don't have
enough time to formulate their own. They're just
so concerned with how people are going to perceive
everything you say that you're like handcuffed.
You're like terrified to misspeak. Right, right.
I think that in general is a real fucking danger.
I mean, we were talking the other day, we were
saying about like one of the benefits of getting
older and doing this for a long time is... you
realize, like, nobody really gives a shit as
much about you as you thought. You spend your
20s and 30s thinking, like, this is really important,
and then you realize no one fucking cares. No
one actually cares. It's not that big a deal.
Most people are mostly worried about themselves
and their life. Yeah, there's this illusion that
they pay a passing moment of attention or it's
in some story. It's like, you're fucking staring
at it because it's about you. You said that about
me. Nobody else really fucking cares. And if
they do, they're usually fucked up, like something's
wrong. Why are you concentrating on this other
person's life? You're probably trying to ignore
your own bullshit. Well, listen, man, your movie's
fucking awesome. I've loved so much of you. your
films over the years so it's been really cool
to be able to have you guys in here and talk
about this it's been great thanks for having
me two very normal nice movie stars you guys
are cool as fuck give us a couple more hours
yeah exactly I enjoyed it and I really enjoyed
the rip it's fucking great and everybody go see
it it's great I loved it thank you thanks for
being here alright it's a pleasure bye everybody