Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we provide a deep-dive examination of the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #1330. Our mission is to offer a high-fidelity, searchable research resource for students of cultural history, emerging technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been specifically optimized for academic reference, linguistic study, and archival preservation regarding Democratic Socialism, Healthcare Reform, and Economic Policy in America And we're live. Hello, Bernie. How are you, Joe?
Wonderful. Pleasure to meet you. Nice to meet
you. It's exciting to have you here, man. And
it's obviously an exciting time for you. The
presidential campaign is up in full swing. Do
you get frustrated by the time constraints of
the debates? Absolutely. You shouldn't even call
them a debate. What they are is a reality TV
show. in which you have to come up with a sound
bite and all that stuff. It is the meaning. It's
the meaning to the candidates, and it's the meaning
to the American people. You can't explain the
complexity of healthcare in America in 45 seconds.
Nobody can. But why is it still done that way?
If you try to... Let's pull this thing. You know,
I think the DNC is in a difficult position. They
have 20 -plus candidates, and they want to give
everybody a fair shot, which is the right thing
to do. And then if you're going to have ten candidates
up on the stage, what do you do? But there are
other ways that we've got to do it because the
issues facing this country are so enormous and
in some cases so complicated. Nobody in the world
can honestly explain them in 45 seconds and then
that what? Encourages people to do is to come
up with sound bites to do absurd things if I
yelled and scream on the show I took my clothes
off We get a lot of publicity right if you give
a thoughtful answer to a complicated question.
It's not so sexy for the media Well, you don't
even have a chance to give a thoughtful answer
like Tulsi Gabbard went after Kamala Harris and
then Kamala Harris had about 12 seconds to reply
to it was so ridiculous to do to have something
that's such an important issue. Did you or did
you not put all those people in jail for marijuana?
Did you laugh about it? Did this happen? Did
that happen? All these different things. Was
evidence withheld? These are long conversations.
But it takes us to another issue and that as
a nation we do a pretty bad job in analyzing
and discussing the serious issues facing our
country. And I hold the media to some degree
responsible for that. You know, other countries,
what they do is they say, Joe, you want to run
for president? I'll tell you what, with your
party in the general election, we're going to
give you a certain amount of time, hours, on
television. And you use those hours any way you
want. You want a 15 -minute discourse. You remember
Ross Perot? Yes. And people used to laugh at
Ross Perot because he used to get up there with
a chart and all this stuff. And the media made
fun of him. But in fact, he tried in his own
way to explain his point of view. to the American
people. And we need serious discussion on serious
issues. Well, he had the, because he was so rich,
he had the ability to buy airtime on network
television, which is pretty unprecedented. He
just bought a chunk of airtime and then pled
his case. But you know what goes on in other
countries? You don't have to buy that time. What
the obligation is, if you are a network, you're
going to make that time free and available. to
candidates. Do you think that that's something
that could be viable in America? Could you convince
CBS and NBC and ABC to go along with something
like that? No. You couldn't convince them. You'd
have to pass legislation to make that happen.
But everyone's online today. I mean, the entire
country is essentially getting email and Facebook
and all that jazz. Why bother doing it in this
particular medium that has an inherent time constraint?
Well, you're right. I mean, the internet has
revolutionized politics, and in many ways good
ways. We use our social media, our email list,
which is very large. Every day we're sending
out stuff and other candidates are doing it the
same way. But television still has a very important
role to be playing. I'm sure it does, but I mean
the ability to discuss things in long form, like
you can do online, like you can do right here
right now, you can't get that on television.
Well, you could. But they would have to interrupt
you every 15 minutes or so for commercials. No,
no, no, no. No, what I'm saying about is what
goes on in other countries. If I'm not mistaken,
don't hold me to this. I think in the UK, you're
a member of the Labour Party, you're a candidate.
He has 30 minutes of time, and you do with it
as you want. You want to speak 30 minutes on
healthcare, whatever it may be, you can do that.
Really? Yeah. And they don't interrupt with commercials?
No, no, no, no. That's the law that they have
given. This is the candidate's opportunity to
speak at length to the people of the country.
What are the misconceptions of you? Because here's
the, if you go to the knee -jerk conservative
reaction, you talk to people who are not interested
in anyone that wants to be a democratic socialist,
they hear the name Bernie Sanders, the negative
implications are that you are somehow or another
going to take their money, right? Is that annoying
to you? Yes, it is. Of course it is. And also
that I'm Mr. Maduro, I'm a dictator, I love dictatorships
and all that stuff. And the truth is, Joe, that
if you look at the issues that I campaign on
and what I believe on, they are really not terribly
radical. They exist in many countries all over
the world. For example, just, we can start on
healthcare if you'd like. Is the idea that healthcare
is a human right, not a privilege, a radical
idea? I don't think it is. It's not. And the
truth is, we are the only major country on Earth.
Many people don't know this. We're the only major
country on earth not to guarantee health care
to all people as a human right, and yet we end
up spending almost twice as much per capita on
health care. The function, and you can argue
with me if you want, but the function of the
current health care system is not to provide
quality care to all, it is to make tens of billions
of dollars in profit for the drug companies and
the insurance companies. That's the function.
If you go to Canada, and I live 50 miles away
from the Canadian border, you have major heart
surgery. You're in the hospital for a month.
Do you know what the bill is when you get out?
Zero. You got it. You go to any doctor you want.
You don't have to take out your wallet. And yet
they guarantee health care to all of their people,
and they spend one half of what we spend. That's
kind of what I want to do. And I don't think
that that's terribly radical. We have a program
now which everybody knows. It's called Medicare.
It was started by Lyndon Johnson back in 1965.
It is a popular program. All that I want to do
over a four -year period is to expand the today
eligibility at age of 65. I want to take it out
to 55, 45, 35, everybody over a four -year period.
That's about it. And I want to expand benefits
to include dental care, hearing aids, and eyeglasses
as well. That's about it. Not too radical. That
doesn't sound radical at all. Now when you say
that Canada spends less, obviously they have
less people. You mean less per capita? Yes, half
per capita. Exactly, per capita. And the quality
of care is as good or better. Do they have problems?
Yeah, they have problems. Everybody has problems.
But overall, the health care experts will tell
you the quality of care there is as good or better
than it is in our country. So what's the hurdle?
Okay, I'll tell you exactly what the hurdle is.
The hurdle is exactly the same thing as in every
other aspect of our lives. It's the power of
money. All right, listen to this. Over the last
20 years, the drug companies alone have spent
four and a half billion dollars in 20 years on
lobbying and campaign contributions. That's what
we're up against. The knowledge, and I mock my
words, within a short period of time you will
see TV ads in California all over this country
demonizing Bernie Sanders. He wants to do this
terrible thing to you. He wants to do that. They
have unbelievable amounts of money and politicians
are frightened of that power. I'll give you one
example. Back in 2016, I got involved here in
a little way with an effort on the part of the
nurses to control the cost of prescription drugs
in California. You may recall that effort. I
do. It was a ballot item in one state here in
California. Do you know how much the drug companies
alone spent to defeat that? They spent $131 million
on one ballot item in one state. Last year, the
top ten drug companies made $69 billion. A week
ago, I went to Canada with a number of Americans
who are dealing with diabetes. We bought insulin
in Windsor, Ontario for one -tenth the price,
ten percent of the price, same exact product
being charged in America. So you got drug companies
that are engaged in collusion and in price fixing
who are incredibly greedy. And the result is
many elderly people, many working people simply
cannot afford the medicine they need. It's unbelievable.
And the reason for all of that stuff is we are
the only country in the world that does not negotiate
with the drug companies. They can charge you
any price they want. And that has to do with
the fact that we don't have a national health
care program, Medicare is not negotiating, et
cetera. Is this something that can really be
implemented inside of four years? It seems like
it's an enormous endeavor. Well, I want you to
think back, think back, Joe, in 1965. You had
Lyndon Johnson as president. And by the way,
this idea of national healthcare, this has been
talked about literally since Teddy Roosevelt.
This is not a new concept. Healthcare is a human
right. That's what Teddy Roosevelt was talking
about. That's what FDR was talking about. Harry
Truman was talking about it. Kennedy was talking
about it. Kennedy got killed. Lyndon Johnson
picked up the mantle. And their idea was, according
to people in their administration, we'll start
with the elderly who are most impacted by by
health care costs and sickness will start and
they did in 1965 without the technology we have
today they implemented Medicare 19 million people
elderly people signed up in the first year so
if you could start a brand new program and have
19 million people sign up with the technology
that is way way behind where we are today why
can't we over a four -year period simply expand
that program I don't think it's such a difficult
operation So when you talk about the drug companies
and the lobbyists and the enormous amount of
money that they spend, does this exist anywhere
else other than the United States, lobbyists
on that level? No, no, of course not. And the
reason, you know, in Canada what you have is
you have a national health care program and so
forth, and they sit down and, A, they negotiate
with the drug companies, they have their own
approach, but every other major country on earth
says to the drug companies, of course you can't
charge us any price you want. This is a reasonable
price. Tell me what your profits are, what your
expenditures are. This is a price. For us, you
could walk in, you know, if you have an illness,
you could walk into the pharmacy tomorrow, and
the price has been doubled, and you say to the
pharmacist, what happened? He said, they just
raised their prices. They could do it any day
they want to, any price they want. Now, lobbyists
are, in general, when people talk about lobbyists,
it's an unattractive term. We think a bit in
terms of a negative. We don't think of, oh, thank
God there's lobbyists. We think, wow, there's
someone with enormous amounts of money using
that money to gain influence on politicians,
and it shapes regular people, it shapes our lives,
mostly in a negative way. This is the way most
people look at it. I'm not saying it's correct.
Why do we have that system in place? Like, why
do we have lobbyists? Why is it legal for someone
to spend exorbitant amounts of money to affect
our civilization to affect the way our culture
works. Now you're taking us into a whole new
area. Yeah. All right. Let's look. Can I? Let
me detour and I'll come back. Today, in America,
you got three people owning more wealth than
the bottom half of the American society. You
don't see that on television too much, do you?
No, you don't. Three people. You got the top
1 % owning more wealth than the bottom 92%. Listen
to this. This is a statistic we recently saw.
came from the Federal Reserve. Over the last
30 years, the top 1 % has seen a $21 trillion
increase in their wealth. The bottom half of
America has seen a $900 billion decline in their
wealth. So what you have in America today is
a relatively small number of incredibly wealthy
people. And I deal with these guys every day.
People say, oh, we're talking about rich. You
don't know what rich is, what multi -billion
dollar operations are. Incredible. power over
our society. And if you were in the pharmaceutical
industry and last year 10 companies made $69
billion in profit, you're sitting around right
now saying, all right, that's great, how do we
do better next year? What strategy do we have?
We're going to put a lot of ads on. We're going
to work with other companies. During the CNN
debate that I participated in recently, in the
debate, right in the middle of the debate, the
drug companies and the insurance companies had
an ad telling how bad so -called, how bad Medicare
for all would be. So they're smart guys. And
they use their power over politicians. They use
their power over the media. They spend billions
of dollars on advertising, on media, to make
sure that they make as much as they can in profit.
But it's not any different with Wall Street.
It's not any different with the fossil fuel industry
or the prison industrial complex. These guys
have wealth. They have power. And they could
care less about the needs of working people in
this country. And that's the dynamic of American
politics right now. And in our campaign, look,
we're taking them all on. I know it makes a lot
of people uncomfortable. But we are taking on
all of these entities and all of their wealth
and all of their power. And that's what a political
revolution is about. So the real problem seems
to be that they have this strategy of unlimited
growth. Not that they're not providing medication
that people need to save their lives. I mean,
it's obviously... important to have pharmaceutical
companies. Of course, of course. Right, so there's
good that they provide, but the business aspect
of it is where the problem lies, right? Right,
look, they have great researchers, but if you
check how they even spend their money, you know,
they will tell you all of their money are research
and development, we're tackling cancer, we're
tackling diabetes, Alzheimer's. The truth is,
of course they are, but the bulk of their money...
is going off into what we call me to drugs they
make modest changes in the drug which really
doesn't improve people's well -being in order
to make profits so the answer is yes we need
obviously vigorous research and development and
by the way your tax dollars all of our tax dollars
often goes to that research and we don't get
the benefit of in terms of lower prices So it's
just it's a business model issue. It's a greed
issue You've got it and how would one stop that
when you're dealing with this the kind of influence
that you're talking about with 69 billion dollars
in a year. I mean the resources they have How
would you stop that? Well, that is kind of what
we call the 64 dollar question. Yeah And I'll
tell you what I think this is what I believe
if you think back American history and you think
about the real changes that have taken place
in society you think about the labor movement
and working -class people standing up and saying
to their employers we're not going to be treated
like animals anymore you can't hire and fire
us you can't work us you know 15 hours a day
we deserve dignity and you think about the growth
of the labor movement of millions of people beginning
to stand together and fight you think about the
civil rights movement you know And it wasn't
just Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. It was, again,
millions of African Americans and their white
allies saying, we're going to end segregation
and racism in this country. Think about the women's
movement. 100 years ago, women in America didn't
even have the right to vote. Think about the
gay rights movement. Think about the environmental.
The only way the change takes place is when ordinary
people come together and stand up and fight and
say that the status quo is not working. And that's
what I believe, and that's what we're trying
to do. So the message of our campaign is it's
us, not me, because I can't do it alone. Let
me be very honest with you. If I were elected
president tomorrow, I can't do the things that
I would like to do, that I'm campaigning on,
unless millions of people were working with me
to tell the corporate elite that they cannot
get it all. So how would that be implemented?
Let's say you become president. You're going
to become president? What do you think? I think
we got a shot at it. President Bernie, what do
you do? You get in there, what do you do? First
of all, you make it clear to the American people
what your agenda is and I appreciate the opportunity
to talk about an agenda in more than 12 seconds.
What does that mean? We're going to fight for
Medicare for all. We're going to raise the minimum
wage to a living wage. We are going to deal with
education in a profound way because I worry about
what's going on in education today. Everybody
knows that the ages of zero through four are
the most important years for human intellectual
and emotional development, right? Every psychologist
will tell you that. And yet we have a totally
dysfunctional early childhood system. We pay
our child care workers starvation wages, yet
working -class families cannot find affordable
quality childcare. You got our public school
systems all around this country, and many of
them really being challenged right now. Teachers
are underpaid. Teachers are working two or three
jobs. You got kids who can't afford to go to
college, and here's something that is just unbelievable.
Kids who have gone to college leaving school
with $50 ,000, $100 ,000 in debt. Unbelievable.
These are issues that we have to deal with, and
I will deal with them. And we are going to substantially
improve the quality of education in America.
We're going to cancel student debt by imposing
a tax on Wall Street speculation. So you've got
to deal with education. You've got to deal with
climate change. The truth is that Donald Trump
is dead wrong. Climate change is not a hoax.
It is a very, very dangerous reality for our
country and the rest of the world. Scientists
tell us we have less than 12 years. to transform
our energy system away from fossil fuel or there
will be irreparable damage. So those are, and
healthcare of course for all, so those are some
of the major issues, criminal justice, immigration
reform. You lay it on the table, you see these
are the issues that we are going to focus on.
And you rally the American people around those
issues and you tell people like Mitch McConnell,
who represents a very poor state in Kentucky,
that Mitch If you are going to oppose raising
that minimum wage to at least 15 bucks an hour,
I will be in Kentucky as president of the United
States. And we're going to have a rally because
you're going to have to stop representing. And
I hope, by the way, that Mitch McConnell is not
the leader. I hope the Democrats can gain control
over the Senate. But if he is, we'll put enormous
pressure on him to do what the people want. Every
idea, Joe, here's the bottom line on this thing.
Every idea that I've just talked to you about
is supported by a majority of the American people.
These are not. radical ideas. Let's take these
one step at a time because you mentioned a lot
of important things there. Let's go with the
minimum wage thing. Now the argument that I've
heard about the minimum wage being raised to
$15 an hour is that there are entry level positions
for high school kids, for people that are just
getting their feet wet in the marketplace, they're
learning how to work, they're learning, they're
making some money after school, that they, that
if you charge or if businesses have to pay $15
an hour to people like that, to entry -level
people, that they won't be able to stay open.
Well, first of all, they will be competing against,
you know, if you're a business and I'm a business
and both of us have to raise our wages at the
same level, we both have the same burden, so
it's spread across. That is what my conservative
colleagues will tell you. The truth is, I don't
have the numbers right in front of me, that while
it certainly is true that young people do work
at McDonald's and the minimum wage jobs, a significant
and majority of the workers are not kids. They
are often, and I've met them at McDonald's, they
are workers who have children themselves. We
work very hard to raise the minimum wage at Amazon
and at Disney. We put pressure on both of those
companies, and they did the right thing. And
when you talk to the people at Amazon who got
that raise, these are not kids. These are people
in their 30s. These are ordinary adults who cannot
make it on 12 or 13 bucks an hour. So I think
the argument that, oh, they're all kids is not
really quite accurate. Well, not even that all
there are they're all kids but that if they are
kids What would you think about making a minimum
wage for someone who's under 18? That's different
from a minimum wage with someone who's a legal
adult. I'm not I'm not for that I think we do
it and and look many of these young people and
have their own needs I just talked to a young
woman Last night who is working going to college
working full -time trying to take care of her
family as well. So I think Look, the minimum
wage has not been raised in 10 years. It is now
$7 .25 an hour, which is clearly unacceptable.
The cost of housing, California, all over this
country is rising fairly rapidly. People can't
afford health care, can't afford college. I don't
think it's asking our employers too much to pay
at least $15 an hour minimum wage. Now, I'm glad
you brought up Amazon. One of the things that
always freaks me out is when I find out that
enormous corporations that make billions of dollars
have tax loopholes where they literally pay no
money. How is that possible and how do you stop
that? Well, it's the same thing as the drug companies.
How is it possible that we pay ten times more
for insulin in this country and for other drugs
than the one in Canada or countries around the
world? And the answer is it's power. So what
is the goal of major corporations in America?
It's to be deregulated as much as possible, so
in some cases they can pollute our water, our
air, our environment. It's also not to pay any
taxes. Trump campaign, as you recall, he said,
my tax plan is not going to benefit the wealthy,
it's going to benefit working people. Well, it
turns out over 10 years, 83 % of the benefit
at the end of 10 years goes to the top 1%. That's
what these guys, though I remember, I'm called
the ranking member on the Budget Committee in
the Senate. And some guy came forward representing,
I don't know, one of the big business organizations.
And this is their agenda. Their agenda was to
cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid,
and to do away with all corporate taxes. So what
you have right now, that's what greed is about.
They want it all. So as you indicated, you have
a company like Amazon, owned by Jeff Bezos, who
happens to be the wealthiest guy in America,
worth about 150 billion. Amazon paid zero in
federal income taxes. And it's not just them.
Dozens of corporations paid nothing or very,
very little. And on top of all of that, you got
these guys able to stash all over the world trillions
of dollars, trillions of dollars in the Cayman
Islands, in Bermuda, in Luxembourg, and other
tax havens. That is insane. And that has got
to end. Yeah. How is it legal to do that? Why
is it legal? Joe it is legal because they make
the laws right all right. You know it That is
what here you're touching now on the heart and
soul of the tragedy of American politics How
does it happen that on issue after issue the
American people the working class of this country
wants something? Nobody pays any attention to
it, but billionaires want something and it gets
done and that has to do with a corrupt Political
system so right now If you are the Koch brothers
or some multi -billionaire, you say to the leadership
of the Republican Party and in some cases to
the Democratic Party, hey, guess what? We're
prepared to put hundreds of millions of dollars
into your campaign. Hundreds of millions of dollars
coming from one or two people. And here is my
agenda. I want tax breaks. I want a trade system
which will enable me to shut down in this country
and go to China or Mexico and pay people there
two bucks an hour. I want to be able to do more
pollution because I don't like all of this money
I have to spend preventing pollution of the air
or the water. That's what I want you to do. And
by the way, I'm worried about the deficit. So
you may as well cut Social Security, Medicare,
and Medicaid. How many Americans actually believe
that we should give tax breaks to billionaires
and cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid?
Very few. Talk to Mitch McConnell. Get Mitch
on the show. That is exactly what he believes.
But that's ridiculous, right? It seems that if
you just took away those tax breaks, the enormous
amount of money that would come from those corporations
having to pay their fair share would take care
of a lot of the expenses of all these things
that you're proposing. Exactly. Okay, let's talk
about the education, because the idea of free
education is a wonderful thing for people. I
mean, the idea that you get out of college and
you're in debt in an insane amount. that you
might have 10, 20 years where you have to pay
it back. And I know many people that are in that
situation. Joe, there are people who are getting
their social security checks garnished right
now. It's not 10 or 20 years. In some cases,
it's literally a lifetime. Now, a lot of that
is... I mean, it's got to, in some way, be preventable
by what we're talking about here. Absolutely.
Is that how you would pay for it? I'll tell you
exactly how we would pay for it. Okay. And we
pay for every idea that we have, we pay for it.
And we pay for it by understanding that today
we have massive levels of income and wealth inequality.
And we have in many cases the wealthy and large
corporations paying nothing or very little in
taxes. Here is the issue in terms of education.
40, 50 years ago, you were an average American
working class person. You graduated high school.
Especially if there was a union around, you can
go out and get a job and make it into the middle
class. You could own your own home. You could
send your kids to school. You lived a pretty
good life. You made it in the middle class. 40
or 50 years later, there's an explosion of technology.
There's a growth in unfettered free trade. And
it is clear now that most people to make it into
the middle class are going to need a higher education.
That's college or maybe it's technical training
in order to become a skilled worker. It is insane
to me to deny working -class people and lower
-income people the opportunity to get that education
because the cost of college has soared. So all
that I say is that a hundred plus years ago the
American people said that we should have free
public education. I went to a public school.
My parents didn't pay a nickel. Went to kindergarten.
I went through the 12th grade. Pretty good education
in Brooklyn, New York. All that I'm saying is
the world has changed. And a high school degree
is not good enough anymore. So expand that concept
through college. Now, guess what? 50 years ago,
do you know how much the University of California,
a very great university, cost in terms of tuition?
How much? Virtually free. What's it now? I don't
know, but it's pretty high. It is high. It's
thousands and thousands of dollars. So you had
great universities like the University of California,
City University of New York, state colleges all
over this country. where tuition was virtually
free and then what happened for a variety of
political reasons states in the federal government
started cutting back on higher education and
put more more burden on the student with higher
and higher tuition which is where we are today
so all i'm saying is in the year two thousand
and nineteen two thousand and twenty if our working
-class kids are going to go out and get the jobs
that are out there they need a They need a higher
education, which should be tuition free in terms
of the cancellation of debt, which is my view.
You got 45 million people who are dealing with
debt. I'll never forget this. This is where it
really hit me. I was in Burlington, Vermont and
I had a meeting on an issue and a young woman
comes up and she says she's a doctor. She graduated
medical school. She's very happy. She's practicing
in a community health center, loves what she's
doing. She said, Bernie, I got to tell you though,
I am $300 ,000 in debt. having gone to medical
school. I couldn't believe it. I was in Iowa,
a young woman, $400 ,000 in debt. This is not
unusual for medical schools and dental schools.
And, you know, ordinary people, $50 ,000, $100
,000 for going to college or getting a master's
degree. We promised these young people, we said,
go to college, go out and get an education, you'll
get decent paying jobs. Well, the answer is they
have not been able to do that. So what we have
proposed in one piece of legislation, or two
actually, is to make public colleges and universities
tuition -free cancel all student debt in this
country. That will cost $2 .2 trillion, a lot
of money, over a 10 -year period. We do this
through attacks on Wall Street speculation, which
will bring in $2 .4 trillion. We bailed out Wall
Street 11 years ago, and by the way, these are
crooks on Wall Street who engaged in illegal
behavior. Taxpayers against my vote bailed them
out. we can bail out wall street you know what
we can cancel student debt and provide public
colleges and universities tuition -free when
you say attacks on wall street speculation what
what exactly do you know it will be attacks on
all all of the trip every sale of attacks you
people buy and sell stocks and bonds all of them
we have a very modest tax on it and by the way
it will have an impact on speculation by cutting
back on the high -frequency trading which we
now see so you would just there is there's no
current tax on correct so you would put a small
amount and that would do the job that would that
would raise more than enough money it's a very
small tax it exists a small how much it depends
on on the nature of the transaction but it's
less than one half of one percent really yeah
And that would cover? Yeah, because the amount
of stocks being sold, bought and sold. And this
is not, again, a new idea. It's being done in
countries all over the world. Here's one of the
darkest things about student loans is that if
you go bankrupt, it doesn't matter. You still
owe that. And that's kind of crazy. I mean, if
you have a serious medical issue, if you're held
up, whatever happens to you that's awful, you
go bankrupt. Most of those things are resolved,
but not student loans. I mean, again, this talks
to the – and that has to do with bankruptcy law,
which was passed against my vote. And while you're
on bankruptcy – and I should have mentioned this
before – when you talk about the healthcare system,
a half a million Americans every single year
go bankrupt because of medical bills that they
can't pay. But you're right. With student – I
talked to this guy in Nevada. I'll never forget
it. The guy said, Bernie, you know, I'm over
in my – the guy's in his 50s. And he said, you
know, I've been paying off my student debt for
years. I'm going nowhere because the interest
rates are high. And I fear very much, which is
the case, that they will start garnishing taking
away my Social Security checks, taking money
away from me. So people are carrying this burden.
The result is that they can't, in many cases,
get married and have kids. They certainly can't
buy a home. They can't buy a car. They are really
crushed by this debt. And what was their crime?
What did they do? They've tried to get a higher
education. I think that's pretty crazy and a
lot of them when they do this higher education
They're 18 years old imagine making a decision
when your brain isn't even fully formed It's
gonna affect you for the rest of your life. You've
got it exactly right and you talk to these kids
So how much debt do you owe? Um, what kind of
interest rates you're paying? Yeah, I really
don't know. They just told me to sign OVM. Sorry
Now right now we are a week I'm not even a week
out just a few days away from two mass shootings
in a row. And whenever these things happen, there's
all these people that want action, but nobody
knows exactly what to do. There's calls for gun
control. There's calls for mental health reform.
There's calls for I mean, what, if anything can
be done to stop these things from happening?
And how have you sat down and tried to come up
with some sort of a solution? And is there a
solution? Look I would be lying to you if I told
you I had a magical answer I don't and This is
such a horrific situation. I you know we were
in you know we had a town meeting. We were in
Nevada actually in Las Vegas when El Paso happened
and We did a town meeting and I said let's take
a moment of silence to remember the victims and
pray for the survivors literally the next day
in another part of Las Vegas, I have to do it
again. And I said, I can't believe that just
yesterday we did this and I have to do it again.
This is, I don't know what the words, you know,
my friend Beto O 'Rourke would say, you don't
know what words, what can you say, it happens
again and again. Who can imagine some lunatic
walking into a school or a mall or just on a
nightclub area and taking out an assault weapon
and shooting down people. And... that we almost
become to accept this as a normal part of American
life is incredible, is just totally demoralizing.
All right, so here's what I think. There's no
magical answer, but let me tell you what I think.
First of all, this is the reality. The reality
is that today as we speak, there are approximately
400 million guns in America today. We have more
guns than we have people. We have between five
to ten million assault weapons and an assault
weapon as you know is a military style Weapon
designed to kill human beings kind of rapidly.
So that's and then on top of that we have again
nothing to be proud of but you know, we have
a number of mentally unstable people people for
whatever reason I walk in the streets. They're
suicidal. They're homicidal That's the mix that
we have. I think the answer is and I'm not the
guy to invent all these ideas, but here's some
of what we have to do. First of all, if you want
to own a gun in America, we have got to know
that you are a stable person, and that means
that we need to expand the background checks
that currently exist. Okay, so we've got to know,
did you beat up your wife? Have you committed
crimes? Et cetera, et cetera. What is the state
of your mental health? Number two, we gotta make
that universal. Number two, right now, there
is a background check if you walk into a gun
show, into a gun shop, but you can buy guns in
various states at a gun show. And you don't have
to do any of that. You and I go to a gun show,
you sell me a gun, I don't have to do that. Third
of all, I can today legally, walk into a gun
show, pass the background check, and buy a dozen
guns, walk out and sell them to criminal elements
who will use them for bad things. So I think
those are issues that most Americans believe
we have got to deal with, and we can. Fourthly,
I happen to believe, and I believe this for 30
years, that we should not be selling or distributing
assault weapons in this country. They are weapons
of mass destruction in a sense. They kill people
rapidly, as we saw. And thank God, by the way,
when we talk about both Dayton and El Paso, thank
God, cops were there very, very quickly and did
an incredible job. So if that guy had walked
into the nightclub, there could have been dozens
and dozens more people killed within a few minutes'
time. I happen to believe, A, that we should
not be selling or distributing assault weapons
in this country. That's my view. period. So I
believe in a ban on assault weapons. And I think
we have got to begin thinking about when we have
five to ten million assault weapons, which is
more than the U .S. military has, we have to
think about a strong licensing procedure in terms
of who owns these assault weapons. So that's
some of what I think. There are many other things,
but those are some of the ideas that are out
there. Now the legal gun owners who are law -abiding
citizens who would never in a million years think
about going around shooting people, but they
love guns. They hear this kind of stuff about
like banning assault rifles, banning assault
weapons. They don't even like the term assault
weapons, right? They like to refer to them as
their individual names for whatever they are.
These people Feel like this is an inexorable
part of being an American that you should be
able to own a gun It's written into our Bill
of Rights is written into our The way we the
way this country was founded. It's the Second
Amendment What do you say to those people that
don't that? Don't want to give up their guns,
but they wouldn't do and they want to protect
themselves They feel like these guns are viable
options to protect themselves from criminals.
I understand that And Joe, you may know I'm a
senator from the state of Vermont. And the state
of Vermont is one of the most rural states in
America. Every fall, we've got thousands and
thousands of people out in the woods hunting.
And it's something that's part of our tradition.
I believe in it, and I believe in the Second
Amendment. But all that I ask of the gun owners,
and you're absolutely right, 99 .9 % of gun owners
would never in a million billion years think
of doing these horrible things. But in the moment
that we are living in, I think that we're all
gonna have to make, you know, some concessions
to the reality of what is going on, and that
is that there is a small number of, call them
what you want, depraved people who are prepared
to do that. You know, in Australia, you remember
that terrible, New Zealand, I'm sorry, the terrible
shooting at the mosque, and they moved pretty
quickly in an aggressive way. So, you know, I
wish I can say, in the best of all possible worlds,
Yeah, you know, you can own any weapon you want
and so forth and so on. We're not living in the
best of all possible worlds. We're living in
a world where we're shocked every day by horror.
I agree we are living in a terrible situation.
I mean, there's hundreds of mass shootings a
year now, which is insane. And if you look at
the number in comparison to the rest of the world,
it's crazy. Like a big one in another country
is like three mass shootings in a year. We had
more than 270. It's crazy. How would you implement
something like this? Well, the idea of banning
assault weapons has been done in 1994. We banned
assault weapons, I believe, I believe it was
for 10 years. That ban was undone by Republican
majority. And it didn't, you know, I'm not suggesting,
by the way, that anything here that if you banned
assault weapons tomorrow that would radically
change everything, but we have got to do the
best that we can do. And again, I preface my
remarks by telling I don't have a magical solution.
You've got hundreds of millions of guns out there.
You have people who should not be owning these
guns, who get set off by God knows what and do
terrible things. All we can do is the best that
we can do. But to say we can't do anything I
think is a real disservice to the American people.
Now, I'll tell you something else that bothers
me, you know, in addition to the horror of seeing
people lying on the street dead. What this is
doing to the children of this country and I think
we underestimate that I have seven grandchildren
and And for them and for kids all over this country
You're gonna see the falls coming kids coming
back to school. You're gonna see in schools all
over America drills Alright, this is what you
do if somebody walks into the school. Alright,
you're gonna hide under here. You go over there
kids a Couple of months ago. I was in Iowa. This
guy is about six foot two big guy probably a
football player And he says, Senator Sanders,
I gotta tell you that the young people in my
school are increasingly frightened, terrified
about what could happen in the school. Think
about what this, the trauma, the trauma of what
this gun violence is doing. So I think we're
all, as Americans, there ain't no easy answers
here, but I think we're all gonna have to come
together and figure this one out and do the best
that we can. Now, would that mean forcibly removing
these guns from people's homes? I don't think
you're going to have the FBI knocking on somebody's
doors and taking it. That's not what we do in
America. But if we have 400 million guns already
out there, and they're building more every year,
right now as we speak, gun manufacturers are
making more guns. This is happening right now.
So if those guns already exist, there's more
than enough. Oh yeah. How would you stop? Well
again, I think, look. You know, I do think there
should be a ban on assault weapons. So that means
that manufacturers would not be able to produce
or sell those weapons. To American citizens,
but not to the military, obviously. Right, obviously.
Okay. So, you know, and your point is well taken.
If you've got 400 million guns out there, you
know. So I think there are approaches. No one
has any magical solution. But I've given you,
I'll tell you something else that I didn't mention.
And that is the role of gun manufacturers is
that If you are a gun manufacturer and you are
selling a hell of a lot of guns to a gun store
in an area which normally you would not think.
I mean, these guys know what cities buy, what
towns buy, how many guns. And if suddenly there
is a tremendous demand, you've got to be thinking,
why is this gun store buying so many guns? It
doesn't reflect the population in the area. You've
got to deal with that issue with the gun owners
who have to take some responsibility. Besides
the guns the gun manufacturers. I'm sorry besides
the guns the gun manufacturers the other gigantic
issue is mental health the only way any of this
ever happens is someone has to be insanely mentally
depraved. That's the only way and many of them
are medicated and many of them are on pharmaceutical
drugs and they have been since they were children
including amphetamines like Adderall and Prozac
and all this different stuff that has varied
effects on the human brain. What could be done
and what would you done to analyze this, to find
out what the cause and effect are, and to try
to figure out what role and how much these drugs
are responsible? Well, two things. Let me respond
first by saying it goes without saying that we
have a mental health crisis in America before
we even talk about drugs. And for whatever reason,
you know, there are a whole lot of people, and
the nature of our healthcare system, getting
back to healthcare, is I just talked to a woman
literally last night, and we had a town meeting,
and she said, this is unbelievable, she said,
Bernie, I was in Las Vegas when the terrible
shooting took place, okay? And now I am, and
I can understand this perfectly, I'm seeing Dayton
and I'm watching television, El Paso, and I'm
getting a PTSD reaction. And that's totally,
if you were in a place where people were shot
down, and I'm trying to get counseling, I can't
find it. I remember a guy called up, a woman
called up my office in Burlington, Vermont, and
she said, I'm worried about my husband, what
he, my brother was his brother, what he might
do to himself or somebody else. We're looking
for mental health counseling. We can't find something
that we can afford. So we need above and beyond
gun violence. We need, and this is why I believe
in Medicare for all, mental health is health
care. You break your arm, that's a health issue.
That's a medical issue. Mental health is a medical
issue. And we have got to make mental health
counseling available to all people in this country
when they need it, not six months from now. at
a price they can afford and on the medicare for
all that would be free so that's number one number
two your point about uh... studying the impact
of drugs uh... on people's behavior and possibly
resulting in violence absolutely deserves to
be studied we should be studying the impact of
drugs in my view this is a layman's view you
know i'm not a psychiatrist i worry very much
that we are over medicating kids in schools You
know, we have this deficit, the deficient issue,
you know, kids are running around and they're
active. You know, when I was a kid, people used
to run around and they were active, you know,
and they weren't, they weren't drugged up. So
I worry about that whole business, but your point
is well taken. I think we need to study this
issue and make sure that these drugs, in fact,
are not causing kinds of reactions that we will
regret later. No, on the subject of drugs, marijuana
is obviously a big issue in this country and
we've seen many states make it recreational,
including this one, what do you think could be
done and what should be done to have this across
the board, especially federally? You know, there's
a guy that I have on the podcast coming up soon,
his name is John Norris, and he wrote a book
on the cartels growing marijuana illegally all
over this country and selling it, especially
particularly in California now because it's a
misdemeanor because it's legal recreationally,
and selling it with all sorts of horrible pesticides
on it, all sorts of like very In fact deadly
chemicals all of this because it's not federally
legal because we can't have Sanctioned licensed
companies doing an ethical job of growing something
than any responsible law -abiding person should
be able to consume Okay Let me say this when
I ran for president for the Democratic nomination
in 2016 I Talked about a broken criminal justice
system which ends up having in the United States
more people in jail than any other country. We
have more people in jail than China does, which
is a communist authoritarian country. And what
I call for then and I call for now is the legalization
of marijuana in America. Right now you have a
federal law. It's called the Controlled Substance
Act. He has heroin. Here is marijuana. They're
at the same level. That is insane. Heroin is
a killer drug. You can argue the pluses and minuses
of marijuana, but marijuana ain't heroin. So
we have to end that, and that's what I will do.
As president of the United States, I believe
we can do that through executive order, and I
will do that. Second of all, what we have now
is a number of states, and I'm very proud. I
talked about during 2016 what seemed kind of
radical. the need to legalize the decriminalized
marijuana very radical idea four years ago it
is spreading all over the country and by the
way it blows my mind to drive through nevada
i think you're even california you see signs
corporations by our marijuana if four years ago
people getting arrested doing that right their
lives being destroyed well particularly nevada
there's life sentences given on the seventies
can you believe that and now you have corporations
selling the their product the people went to
jail for uh... so i i think Ultimately, you know,
we've got to legalize marijuana. And what's good
news, in a sense, is some communities, some cities,
are expunging the records. So if you were arrested,
have a criminal record for selling marijuana,
that is being expunged, and that is the right
thing to do. You know, we can argue about the
pluses and minuses. I'm not a great fan of drugs.
smoked marijuana a couple of times. Didn't do
much for me. Other people, I guess, have different
impacts. Just a couple times? That's right, true.
It didn't do much for you? Yeah, maybe. Where
were you getting it? I was in Vermont, Northern
Vermont. Oh, that's the problem. Maybe. It'll
do something for you. Well, it made me cough
a whole lot. But I gather other people have had
different experiences, correct? Oh, for sure.
Yeah, I certainly have. The other problem is,
of course, with illegal drugs comes, you get
this horrible cycle. particularly in inner cities,
where you have people that are incarcerated for
illegal drugs, illegal drugs seem to be the only
way out. The hard drugs, when we're talking about
cocaine and all these other drugs, how does one
stop that? And would you ever consider legalizing
all drugs or decriminalizing all drugs? Not at
this point, no, I wouldn't. But you're touching
on a real tragedy. Yes. When we talk about criminal
justice in America, we have over two million
people in jail. They are disproportionately African
-American, Latino, and Native American. And here's
what I think. I think in the wealthiest country
in the history of the world, what we have got
to do, instead of building more jails and locking
up more people, we really do have to invest in
our young people, especially young people in
distressed communities. What does that mean?
If we can, and we can do this with a proper amount
of resources, make sure the kids are not dropping
out of school. If you drop out of school today,
you know, say you drop out in your second or
third year of high school, you don't have an
education, you don't have any job skills, what
are you going to do with your life? And the answer
is you may well do drugs, you know, or you'll
get in trouble, self -destructive activity or
destructive activity, you're going to end up
in jail. It makes so much more sense from a humane
perspective, protecting our people. as well as
a financial situation. We're spending $80 billion
a year to invest in these kids. What does it
mean? It means making sure they get the education
that they need, paying attention, having good
schools, making sure that they get the jobs that
are out there, doing job training. There was
a principal in a school in southern Vermont.
I'll never forget what she said. It was a working
class school. And she said, Bernie, I love these
kids. I am not going to let them drop out. And
she had a mentoring program just watching the
kids who are mostly at risk. so that they would
not end up going through the cracks and getting
into trouble. That's what we should be doing
as a nation. And when we do that, we invest in
the kids, we get them jobs, we get them education,
the likelihood of them falling into bad ways
is significantly reduced. All those things sound
great. The uncomfortable reality about drugs
though is that when drugs are illegal, criminals
sell them. And there's obviously a need for drugs
in terms of, not necessarily a need, but a demand
for drugs. There's a demand for drugs in this
country that's absolutely fueling Mexican cartels
and illegal drug runners inside this country.
I mean, there's a lot of that. How do you curb
that if drugs are illegal? You're raising a deep
question. Yes. All right. So the question essentially
that you're asking is What is the cause of the
opioid epidemic? Yes, that's one But the opioid
epidemic it's is interesting because there's
so much of it that's coming legally Right, that's
not the drug cartels. That's the pharmaceutical
industry. You're right, but you the heroin is
illegal Yes, all right. Now you're asking this
is a very very deep question, which we don't
talk about terribly much Why is it that so many
of our people are turning to drugs, to alcohol
by the way, and I don't mean to drink a night
but I mean serious alcohol problems, and tragically
to suicide. We now have for the last three years
something that is ahistorical, never happened
before in modern history and that is our life
expectancy is actually going down and this is
hitting all over the country, but especially
hitting rural areas. And what the doctors are
saying is that these are diseases of despair.
Despair. So you're in West Virginia, you're in
rural Ohio, or any place, Vermont, any place,
and the job you used to have earning a decent
living is now in China. Your kid can't afford
to go to college, maybe you can't afford healthcare.
You've got nothing to look forward to. Under
that scenario, drugs become, alcohol becomes
a way out, and the worst case is suicide. So
I think what we're talking about is why is this
happening, often in rural areas, in urban as
well, and how can we reestablish hope and optimism
in the American people? And that gets back to
a whole lot of other issues. It means if people
have health care as a right, that will certainly
play a role in this thing. They'll walk into
the doctor when they need. But it also means
that people need decent jobs that pay them a
living wage. That means we have to rebuild rural
America. We have to rebuild the depressed communities
in urban America. It means that we have to have
a great educational system. People say, oh, that's
great, Bernie, that's utopian. It is not utopian.
This is something that in the wealthiest country
in the history of the world we can afford, and
we should be doing rather than creating a situation
where Amazon pays zero in federal income taxes.
So to answer your question, this is a deep question.
And again, I'm not here to tell you I have all
the answers, but there are a lot of people out
there who have basically given up hope. And for
those people, I guess drugs is the alternative.
So what you're saying essentially is that if
we can do something to mitigate despair, then
we'll do something to at least stop some of the
demand for these illegal drugs. I believe that
is the case. Look, if I am optimistic, if I'm
excited about going to work tomorrow and I'm
seeing my kid doing great in school, and you
know, when I get sick, I can go to the doctor's
office and have a sense of community. My downtown
is not all boarded up because businesses have
left. But we have a community, yeah, the strong
likelihood is there will be less diseases of
despair and drugs than we currently see. When
we're talking about impoverished communities
and chronically, when you're talking about cities
like Baltimore, parts of Chicago and Detroit
that have just been in a terrible state of despair
for long periods of time and it doesn't seem
like there's a way out, the people that are born
there, the people that live there, they live
in this state of despair. What can be done to
resolve all these terribly impoverished communities
and bring them up to a standard where these kids
that grow up there that they feel like there
is an out that they do have an opportunity and
how wise is not addressed when we talk about
making america great wouldn't like fixing the
worst parts of the country be the primary concern
the the will last people that grow up in a terribly
disadvantageous position from birth Wouldn't
that be an important thing, and what can you
do to resolve that? Well, Joe, I think you, you
know, you said it better than I can. I think
you're right. You know, when we talk about what
it means to live in a great society, a great
nation, a nation that we're proud of, I'm afraid
there are some people who have incredible wealth
and power who say, you know, what's great is
that we're seeing a growth in the number of billionaires
in America. Isn't that terrific? And we got one
guy who's worth $155 billion. How great? Oh,
by the way, we're building more nuclear weapons.
And we're spending $750 billion a year on the
military. Isn't that extraordinary? And by the
way, just see the yacht that that billionaire
has. You know, it's three miles long. Isn't that
great? Your point is that we have to, I think,
as I understand what you're saying, we have to
redefine what being a great nation is about.
We are not a great nation when we have 40 million
people living in poverty and in despair. We're
not a great nation when we have massive levels
of income and wealth inequality when 87 million
people can afford to go to a doctor today. So
to answer your question, I think that as a nation
we have got to focus a great deal of attention
on those distressed communities. Often they're
African -American, often they're Latino, often
they are rural white communities. And that means
making sure that the kids there get the quality
education that they deserve, making sure that
we're creating good paying jobs in those communities.
I voted against NAFTA permanent normal trade
relations with China and other trade agreements
because I knew that those agreements were written
by corporate America with the goal of shutting
down plants in this country and moving abroad.
And the result of that has been the loss of millions
of good paying jobs. the complete destruction
of communities all across this country, in the
South and all across this country. So we have
got to rebuild those communities. We have got
to bring high -tech jobs, not just to Silicon
Valley, but to rural America again. I don't have
magical answers, but the goal is we will not,
under a Sanders administration, turn our backs
on distressed communities. We will rebuild those
communities. We will build the millions of units
of affordable housing. that we need. Now think
about what it means to a community now where
people are living in terrible housing or housing
they cannot afford. When we put young people
to work rebuilding their own communities will
that become an indication of hope and optimism?
I think it will. We're talking about so many
deeply important issues and all of them that
will be under the control or at least the direction
of the one person who winds up becoming the President
of the United States. Is it a Impossible job.
I mean, it seems like being the president you
are managing so many different aspects of our
economy our culture our safety our environment
International communication and it's so it's
so in -depth. How does one person do a job like
that? Well, one person doesn't do it and you
certainly don't do it by tweeting every other
day major policy issues I think he tweets a lot
more than You know, what you do, and this is
the way any sane president operates, is you need
to be working with the smartest men and women
from all walks of life who understand these issues.
Every issue we have touched on, Joe, is enormously
complicated. And I can send out a 20 -word tweet
on it, but that doesn't solve it. So unlike Trump,
we will bring together the... best and most knowledgeable
people in this country to address the housing
crisis, to address the issue of these diseases
of despair. We didn't even touch on climate change,
you know, and then the future of the planet.
How do we lead the world in transforming our
energy system and creating the kind of jobs that
we need? How do we revitalize American democracy
so that instead of suppressing the vote, we're
getting more young people involved in the political
process? So to answer your question, it is not
a one -person job, and anyone who thinks it is
is dead wrong. You need the help of a very strong
administration that knows the issues that comes
from the ranks of the working class. And this
is the promise I will make. My administration,
unlike Trump's, is not going to be filled with
billionaires who's basically very often greedy
type people. It is going to be filled with the
best people often from the working class itself,
from the trade union movement. people who are
going to help us create policies that work for
workers and not just the billionaire class. Now
we're getting to the end of your hour here, so
climate change is obviously an enormous issue
for our country and for the world. What could
be done and what do you think you can do as president
that can somehow or another slow down this process?
First of all, we have to have a president who
unlike Trump believes in science, and I do. And
what the scientists are telling us, as I mentioned
earlier, is that we have fewer than 12 years
to transform our energy system, or else there
will be irreparable damage done, not only to
our country, but to the world. Now, climate change
is not just an American issue. So we could do,
tomorrow, do all the right things, but if China
and Russia and India and the rest of Brazil and
Africa does not do the right thing, you know,
we're not going to make the progress we need.
Here is what we have to do in my view. Number
one, we have to tell the fossil fuel industry
that their short -term profits, and they make
a whole lot of money, their short -term profits
are not more important than the future of this
planet. I don't think that's a hard sell to make.
You cannot keep producing a product which is
destroying the planet. in the United States and
around the world. So by saying that, you're saying
you would have to move, we would have to move
consciously away from fossil fuels. No, if so,
buts and maybes. And if we do that, how do you
tell the fossil fuel companies, do you tell them
you can't sell fossil fuels anymore? There are
a variety of ways to do that, but that is the
bottom line. And by the way, in the midst of
that, we do what we call is a just transition.
The guy out on the oil rig today simply wants
to feed his family. And the coal miners today
want to feed their families. And we're not going
to leave them. I'm a pro -worker. I have probably
the strongest pro -worker record of any member
of the Congress. So it is not my intention to
throw these guys out on the, and women, out on
the street and ignore the pain that they will
go through. We are proposing billions of dollars
to rebuild those communities and make sure that
those guys and women get new jobs. So we're not...
just discarding people in the fossil fuel industry.
But ultimately, the product that they are producing,
which is now carbon emissions, is destroying
the planet. So we have to move away from fossil
fuel in a very bold way into energy efficiency.
Right now, in my own state of Vermont and all
over this country, there are buildings which
are incredibly wasteful. We don't have the windows.
We don't have the insulation. We don't have the
roofing, the doors that we need to keep the buildings.
warm in the winter and cool in the summer. And
we can create just an incredible number of jobs
just retrofitting our buildings. Second of all,
we need to move very aggressively to sustainable
energies like wind and solar. In California,
you're doing a good job with wind. Iowa's doing
a good job. Texas doing a good job. We've got
to do much more. Solar, there is incredible potential
out there. Prices of solar have dropped in recent
years. we have got to not only transform the
energy system in our own country we got to lead
the world in working with Russia and China because
in this issue we are in it together and Here's
my dream and maybe this may be a utopian dream
the world right now is spending a trillion and
a half dollars on weapons of destruction designed
to kill each other and Maybe just maybe if we
had a kind of leader and I hope to be that leader
Who says to the world instead of spending a trillion
and a half dollars killing each other? Maybe
we use those resources to transform the global
energy system and save the planet for our kids
and our grandchildren. That's the goal that I
have. Well, these ideas sound great, but in the
competitive environment of global politics, how
would you convince Russia or China or any of
these countries to do something that would put
them in some sort of a competitive disadvantage?
Well, and the answer is... Joe if we do not do
that in 50 a hundred years everybody's gonna
be right terrible this event and look I'm not
you know I'm saying you know I'm not telling
you that tomorrow it's gonna happen But you got
to make the case these people you know Putin
is a dictator I dislike him intensely you know
Chi in China very authoritarian so fun so but
they're not crazy people and Presumably they
have concern about their kids and their grandchildren.
This is a planet under siege you know i don't
want to become a science fiction you've all seen
the movies the media racing toward earth we're
gonna blow up the earth what do we do well we
gotta get together this is in a sense what that
is about you know i think about in nineteen forty
one uh... after pearl harbor we were faced with
a war in the east with china a war in the west
within two years the united states had transformed
its economy to address And win the war basically
in two or three years by reindustrializing America.
We can do it. We can lead the world. That's what
we have to do. So in your eyes we have to look
at the economy almost as if the same kind of
threat. or excuse me, the environment. It's the
same kind of threat as Nazi Germany. An act together.
Look, if you ask the defense department, you
ask the CIA, you ask the defense people all over
the world, tell us what the great national security
threat is. You know what it is? It is climate
change. There's a lot of people, though, that
are skeptical of this. How would you convince
them? I mean, this is a big part of the problem,
right? There's a narrative that you hear from
a lot of people that, oh, you know, climate change
is not a proven science, and climate change is
a hoax. I mean, this is something that's repeated
over and over again. I'm sure some of it has
to do with lobbyists, and some of it has to do
with merchants of doubt that go out there and
seed the world with disinformation to try to
increase their profits and continue the practices
that they're currently enjoying. You know, Joe,
when I'm thinking back, and I don't know if all
you listen is can remember this because I'm older
than most, but... I can remember tobacco and
cigarette ads on television, remember? Yes. Doctor,
the guy dressed in a white truck, smoking away,
this is a great cigarette, it'll improve your
health. They lied. The tobacco industry knew
exactly what was going on. And the fossil fuel
industry is lying right now. And the President
of the United States is either too stupid to
understand what the scientists are telling us,
or he is lying as well. Climate change, look,
I am not the scientist. This is not my idea.
I listen to the scientists. The debate is long
over. Climate change is real, my God. Look at
what's happening around the world today. July
was, I think, the warmest July or warmest month
in the modern history of the world. The Arctic
ice is melting. Heat waves in Europe. Just look
out the window at what's going on. So this is
not Bernie Sanders talking. This is the scientific
community. Climate change is real. It will only
get worse if we do not act boldly to cut carbon
emissions. Well, we just did an hour, sir, so
I'm going to let you go, because I know you got
very important things to do. One last question.
If you got into the office and you found out
something about aliens, if you found out something
about UFOs, would you let us know? Well, I'll
tell you, my wife would demand that I let you
know. Is your wife a UFO nut? No, she's not a
UFO nut. She says, Bernie, what is... Going on.
Do you have any access to Ricketts? You don't
have any access? I don't. Honestly, I don't.
Okay. You'll let us know though? All right. I'll
be on the show. We'll announce it on the show.
Please. All right. You got to. Thank you, sir.
I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.