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Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we examine the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #[Número del Episodio]. Our goal is to provide a searchable, high-fidelity research resource for students of cultural history, technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been optimized for academic reference and archival preservation regarding
And OK, that'll just be very professional. You

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know, people are like, how do you live and things

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like that? They're taking money from the Russians.

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And of course, the answer is no. But I do this

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for a living. Like I speak. I don't have a YouTube

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channel where it's, you know, I'm Joe Rogan.

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But I give speeches at universities and things

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like that. I do a lot of interviews. And so we're

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recording now. My own setup. Is it possible that

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you could do a YouTube channel? Would that work?

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Yeah. I mean, if you introduce me so I get followers,

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yeah, we could do that. Dude, I'm all in. That

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could absolutely happen. Do you want to do that?

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Is that something you want to do? No, I mean,

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this is a big question. So I came on because

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I had just written a book called Permanent Record,

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which is the story of my life because that's

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what publishers make you do when you're writing

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your first book. But it's more than that because

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I didn't just want to talk about me. It's actually

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about the changing of technology and the changing

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of government in this sort of post -9 -11 era,

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which, you know, our generation just sort of

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happened to be growing up during. And I was at

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the CIA and the NSA and all this stuff. But the

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day that the book came out, the government hit

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me with a lawsuit. And they hit the publisher

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of the books with a lawsuit. because they don't

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want to see books like this get written. They

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especially don't want to see books like this

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get read. And so the big thing was, you know,

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we didn't know where this was going. We didn't

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know what was going to happen. And my publisher,

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of course, wanted me very badly to let people

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know this book existed in case the government

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leaned harder and harder and harder. We didn't

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know where that's going. The government is still

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pursuing that case quite strongly. They're more

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focused on the financial censorship side of it,

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basically taking any money that I made from it

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kind of as a warning to the others. And getting

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a legal judgment against the publishers saying,

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you know, you can't pay this guy, that kind of

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thing. More so than taking the book off the shelves,

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but that's not because... they're okay with the

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book being on the shelves. It's because, thankfully,

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we've got the First Amendment, and so they can't.

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And that's a very rare and good thing. But anyway,

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in the context of that, they were like, well,

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what about Joe Rogan? And, you know, I had heard

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about you at this point, but, you know, the only

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thing that I had really seen, that I really understood,

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had familiarity with, was, like, you talking

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to Bernie Sanders, which, by the way, I very

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much appreciated. hearing that because a lot

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of people don't give the guy time to talk yeah

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to hear him in those sound bites you don't really

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get an understanding of who he actually is right

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and this is the other thing like they're like

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well you know you can go on all these major network

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shows and I did a couple of them I did like a

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morning show I did Brian Williams But broadly,

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the media, the sort of more corporatized media,

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as we might say, is exactly what you just described,

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right? They want you to be able to answer in

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like 8, 15 seconds or less. And when we're talking

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about big, massive shifts in society, when we're

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talking about power, when we're talking about

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technology and how it controls and influences

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us in the future, you can't have a meaningful

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conversation within those constraints. And so

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instead, these guys all want to say, repeat these

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long, discredited sort of criticisms. And, you

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know, I'm sure you'll ask the same thing. And

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that's okay. They're fair questions. But it's

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like we can't have the conversation if we can't

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have the space to think and breathe and have

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this sort of discussion. So anyway, they mentioned

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you. And I was like, Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan, Joe

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Rogan, where do I know this name from before

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Bernie Sanders? And I look back through my Twitter

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mentions. And the funny thing is your fans have

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been harassing me to death for like the last

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years. Wonderful people, wonderful people. But

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like, go on, Joe Rogan, go on, Joe Rogan. And

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I remember like after I had just made a Twitter

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account, Neil deGrasse Tyson actually helped

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me get on Twitter, gave me that little initial

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boost. They said Joe Rogan. And so they, like,

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linked you, and, you know, I mouse over your

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name because I use a desktop and not mobile for

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this because of security reasons. And it pops

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up, and I get your avatar, man. And, like, I

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have to say, your logo. It's the worst thing

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in the world for people who are like trying to

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be like politically serious and you know They're

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worried about the National Security Advisor condemning

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because like this bald guy with this Maniacal

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grin and like the third eye on his forehead and

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I'm like, oh man, that's Joe Doesn't look good,

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but it's actually like when you watch, you know,

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when you watch what you do, it's great stuff,

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man It's great. But that first impression like

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I this almost didn't happen, but everybody who

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has talked to you, you know, everybody who watches

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your show, I think they get a very different

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impression than how you're painted. And for me,

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it's a wonderful thing because nobody understands

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that better than I do, right? Like, the government

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ran a smear campaign against me endlessly for

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six months when I came forward in June of 2013.

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I know we got way off topic here. I'll get back

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to it. Fine. There's no such thing as off topic.

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We could do, talk about whatever. Great, great.

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Okay, so for those people, first off, who have

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no idea who the hell I am, I'm the guy who was

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behind the revelations of global mass surveillance

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in 2013. I worked for the CIA. I worked for the

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NSA as a contractor at the NSA, a staff officer

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at the CIA. I was undercover working at embassies.

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And I talk about the difference between this

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and a book and contractor and government official

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and how it's all sort of lost its meaning. But

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I saw something wrong. And I saw basically the

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government was violating the law. and what I

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believe to be the Constitution of the United

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States and more broadly human rights for everyone

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in the United States and around the world. There

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were domestic surveillance programs, there were

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mass surveillance programs that worked internationally.

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Basically everything that they could monitor,

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they were monitoring. And this is actually like

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people go, well, isn't that obvious? Isn't that

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what they're supposed to do? And this is weird,

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but the answer actually is no. Under the framework

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of our Constitution, the government is only supposed

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to be monitoring people that it has an individualized,

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particularized suspicion of wrongdoing for. We

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think about this in the investigative means.

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All those TV shows where they go and get a warrant,

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the reason they have to do that, we fought a

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revolution over this a couple hundred years back.

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is the idea that when we had, you know, kings,

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when we had governments of absolute power, they

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could simply go in your home and go, you know,

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is this guy a pot smoker? Get his diary, you

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know, whatever it is. And just like if you find

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evidence of a crime, you march them off to prison

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and it's all good. You found evidence, they're

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criminal. Or you didn't find evidence, well,

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no harm, no foul. You're just doing what government

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does. We were trying to build a better system.

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Yes, the government has extraordinary capabilities,

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but it only uses them where they're necessary,

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where they're proportionate to the threat that

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is presented by this person. We shouldn't be

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afraid of the person who's got a baggie of weed

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in their dresser or something like that. That

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is not a threat to national security. That is

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not a threat to public safety. But what happened

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in the wake of 9 -11 was a whole bunch of government

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officials got together behind closed doors. And

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this was actually led, interestingly enough,

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by the vice president of the United States, Cheney.

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Everybody remembers that name or hopefully can

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look that name up, Dick Cheney. And his personal

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attorney, sort of the Giuliani of Dick Cheney,

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a guy named David Addington. And this lawyer,

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David Addington. wrote a secret legal interpretation

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that no one else was allowed to see. It was kept

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in the vice president's safe at the White House.

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They weren't giving this, even when they told

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people, and it was just a couple people in Congress.

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Nancy Pelosi was one of them and a couple of

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these other folks. When they talked to the heads

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of the agency, the NSA and the CIA and the FBI

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and all this stuff, they told them the White

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House and the Office of Legal Counsel and the

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president's attorneys, all of these guys had

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decided this would be legal to do. But we can't

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tell you why. We can't show you the legal authorization

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for it. You just got to take our word for it.

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And so they did this, and this became a mass

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surveillance program called Stellar Wind, which

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they said was supposed to monitor the phone calls

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and Internet communications, e -mails, and things

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like that of everybody in the United States and

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around the world, who they could get access to,

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for links to al -Qaeda. Because if you remember,

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in the wake of the September 11th attacks, they

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were singing, We thought there could be sleeper

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cells of Al -Qaeda that were just, you know,

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peppered all throughout the country and they

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were going to spring up at any moment. Of course,

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like weapons of mass destruction, it just didn't

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exist. It was all a power grab. But on that basis,

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they started doing this in secret. And it was

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completely unconstitutional. It was completely

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illegal, even under the very loose requirements

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of the Patriot Act. But they did it for so long.

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That they got comfortable with it. And they thought,

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you know, this is a really powerful capability.

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What if we started using this for stuff that

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was other than terrorism? Because it wasn't finding

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any terrorists, because there weren't any terrorists.

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in this context that they were looking for them.

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And the ones who, where there were terrorists,

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the program wasn't affected because these were

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guys in Pakistan that weren't using, you know,

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email and phone calls. They were getting on a,

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you know, moped with their cousin who was a courier

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who was bringing a letter to his guy, you know,

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who runs the food stand or whatever. But bit

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by bit over time, this grew and grew and grew.

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And there were scandals. And if you want to drill

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down on these later, I'll go into them. But what

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happened? was step by step by step. Our constitutional

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rights were changed. And we weren't allowed to

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know it. We were never granted a vote on it.

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And even the many members of Congress, right,

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535 in the United States, they were prohibited

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from knowing this. And instead, they told only

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a few select people. In the original case, there

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were only eight members of Congress, called the

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Gang of Eight, who knew about this. Then there

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were the people on the intelligence committees,

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both in the Senate and the House, who were told

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about this. But they were only told partially

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about it. They weren't told the full scope of

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it. And now that they had been told about it,

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because they had security clearances and things

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like that, they weren't allowed to tell anybody

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else, even if they objected to it. And we had

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one senator, Ron Wyden. And another one, I believe,

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Tom Udall was the name of them, who did object

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to this and who wanted something to happen, but

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because they couldn't tell anybody that was happening,

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they were sort of doing these weird lassie barks

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to the press, where they were like, we have grave

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concerns about the way these programs are being

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carried out. But nobody knew what they were talking

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about. And so journalists were like, you know,

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they've got concerns. What is that lassie? What

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are you trying to say? Timmy's in the well? But

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they were getting it wrong. They couldn't tell

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what was happening. And so what had happened

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was that we, the American people, had sort of

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lost our seat at the table of government. We

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were no longer partner to government. We had

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simply become subject to government. And I think

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everybody who's in the world today, who is aware

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of what's going on, whether it's under this administration,

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the last administration, the one before that,

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right? They have seen a constant kind of shift.

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where we have, we the public, have less say and

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less influence over the policy of government

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with each passing year. There's kind of a new

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class that's being created, a government class

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and then the public civil class that are held

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to different standards of behavior. And when

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we start talking about leaking and whistleblowing,

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this becomes even more clear. And so what I did

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was I wanted to clarify that kind of LASI mark,

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right? I just wanted everybody to know what was

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going on. on. I didn't want to say the government

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can't do this. I didn't want to say this is how

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you guys have to live, because that's not for

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me to say. But I do believe that everybody in

00:12:53.970 --> 00:12:55.889
the United States, and more broadly people in

00:12:55.889 --> 00:12:57.529
the world who are having their rights violated

00:12:57.529 --> 00:13:00.909
by a government, should have at least an understanding

00:13:00.909 --> 00:13:03.250
of how that is happening. What the authorities,

00:13:03.509 --> 00:13:05.690
sort of the policies and programs that are enabling

00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:09.500
that, are so that they can. protest them, so

00:13:09.500 --> 00:13:12.240
that they can cast a vote about them, so that

00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.620
they can say, you know what, you guys say this

00:13:14.620 --> 00:13:17.639
is okay, but I disagree. This is not okay. I

00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:19.840
object, and I want things to change. And so I

00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:22.779
gathered evidence of what I believed to be criminal

00:13:22.779 --> 00:13:25.120
or unconstitutional activity on the part of the

00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.700
government, and I gave this to journalists, right?

00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.259
Now, I gave this to journalists under a very

00:13:32.259 --> 00:13:34.299
strict condition here, which was that they publish

00:13:34.299 --> 00:13:38.169
no story in this archive of information. simply

00:13:38.169 --> 00:13:40.009
because it was interesting, right? No clickbait,

00:13:40.090 --> 00:13:42.750
not anything just because they thought it would

00:13:42.750 --> 00:13:45.389
make news, it would get them awards. They would

00:13:45.389 --> 00:13:47.330
only publish stories that they were willing to

00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:49.629
make an institutional judgment and stand behind.

00:13:50.190 --> 00:13:53.110
And this was three different newspapers that

00:13:53.110 --> 00:13:58.570
it was in the public interest to know. And so

00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:01.029
then beyond that, there was additional, because

00:14:01.029 --> 00:14:02.990
if you could see sort of what I was doing here,

00:14:03.090 --> 00:14:05.269
what had happened, what had led us into this

00:14:05.269 --> 00:14:12.720
pitfall. was that the system of checks and balances

00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.240
that's supposed to self -regulate our government

00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.799
had failed. The courts had abdicated their role

00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.620
in policing the executive in the Congress because...

00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:25.100
Terrorism was such a hot argument at the time.

00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.220
They were worried about being criticized and

00:14:27.220 --> 00:14:28.899
blamed if something went wrong and an attack

00:14:28.899 --> 00:14:31.539
did go through. And they didn't have access to

00:14:31.539 --> 00:14:33.519
the information that the programs were ineffective.

00:14:33.860 --> 00:14:35.120
So they were just taking the government's word

00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:37.440
for it. And they didn't want to wait in Congress.

00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.820
Most of them didn't even know, right? And the

00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:44.279
ones who did know, it was the same thing. They

00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.399
were getting their pockets stuffed with money

00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:48.720
by the defense contractors that were getting

00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.000
rich for building these systems that were violating

00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.039
the rights of each of us. So they benefited by

00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:55.679
just saying nothing. And then the executives

00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:58.120
themselves, whether we're talking about Bush,

00:14:58.299 --> 00:15:00.159
whether we're talking about Obama, or whether

00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.539
we're talking about Trump now, all these guys

00:15:02.539 --> 00:15:04.820
were okay with a constantly growing surveillance

00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:07.440
state. Because they're the ones whose hands were

00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:09.740
on the lever at the time. They got to aim it.

00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:12.480
They got to use it. If you had a little search

00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.620
box in front of you, they would give you the

00:15:14.620 --> 00:15:17.720
email history of everybody in the United States.

00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:19.299
Anybody you want. If you could pull up their

00:15:19.299 --> 00:15:21.480
text messages. Anybody you want. If you could

00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:23.559
see anything they've ever typed into that Google

00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.580
search box. Joe, what is the worst thing you've

00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:30.000
ever typed into that search box? That lasts forever.

00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:32.500
And they have a record of that. They can get

00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:36.419
that from Google. And so this was the whole thing.

00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.960
How do we correct for that? So when you have

00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.059
somebody who wants to inform the public of something,

00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.019
and we'll get into the proper channels arguments

00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:50.679
later, but you can't go through the institution

00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:53.100
to get these corrected because the institution

00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:56.100
knows it's wrong and is doing it anyway, right?

00:15:56.139 --> 00:15:59.120
That's the whole origin of the program is they

00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:00.779
want to do something that they're not allowed

00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:05.000
to do. What do you do? And so I didn't want to

00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:06.820
say, I'm the president of secrets, I didn't want

00:16:06.820 --> 00:16:08.299
to just put this stuff on the internet, and I

00:16:08.299 --> 00:16:12.240
could have, I'm a technologist. I worked with

00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.019
the journalists, and then to create an adversarial

00:16:15.019 --> 00:16:18.379
step, someone who would argue against what I

00:16:18.379 --> 00:16:20.500
believed, and hopefully what the journalists

00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:22.919
believed once they consulted the documents and

00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:28.460
basically authenticated them. Can we get the

00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:33.419
government to play that role? And so before the

00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:35.159
journalist published any story, and this is a

00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.419
controversial thing. People still criticize me

00:16:37.419 --> 00:16:39.320
for this, actually. They say I was too accommodating

00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:43.419
to government. They could be right. Is that the

00:16:43.419 --> 00:16:45.000
journalist would go to the government and give

00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.899
them a warning. Say, we're about to run this

00:16:46.899 --> 00:16:49.240
story about this secret program that says you

00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.480
did X, Y, and Z bad thing. One, is that right?

00:16:53.740 --> 00:16:55.500
And the government would always go, oh, no comment.

00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.000
Two, is this going to cause harm? Is anybody

00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:00.820
going to get hurt? Is this program effective?

00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:02.840
Is there something we don't understand, right?

00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:05.559
Is there something Snowden doesn't understand?

00:17:05.660 --> 00:17:07.859
Does this guy just not get it, right? Are these

00:17:07.859 --> 00:17:10.920
documents fake? Whatever you want, say we shouldn't

00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.039
run this story. In every case I'm aware of, that

00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.660
process was followed. And that's why, right?

00:17:16.779 --> 00:17:18.000
Because there's a lot of people out there who

00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.000
don't like me, who criticize me, who go, this

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.359
was unsafe, this caused harm to people or whatever.

00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:28.279
We're in 2019 now. I came forward. And these

00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.119
stories won the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service

00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.559
Journalism starting way back in June of 2013.

00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.279
We've had six years to show bodies. We've had

00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.759
six years to show harm. And you know as well

00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.000
as I do, the government's happy to leak things

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.490
when it's in their interest. Nobody has been

00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.549
hurt as a result of these disclosures because

00:17:49.549 --> 00:17:52.529
everyone who was involved in them was so careful.

00:17:52.650 --> 00:17:55.390
We wanted to maximize the public benefit while

00:17:55.390 --> 00:17:59.210
mitigating the potential risks. And I think we

00:17:59.210 --> 00:18:00.670
did a pretty good job of it. But just to get

00:18:00.670 --> 00:18:03.670
back to the main thing, the original thing that

00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:07.789
got us off on that trail, when I came forward

00:18:07.789 --> 00:18:10.329
in June of 2013, I gave one interview to the

00:18:10.329 --> 00:18:13.980
people who were in the room. with the documents,

00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.279
Laura Poitras, Glenn Greenwald, Ewan McCaskill.

00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:20.180
And I said who I was. I said why I was doing

00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:22.240
this. I said what this was about, why it matters.

00:18:23.019 --> 00:18:25.160
And that we were constructing a system of turnkey

00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:27.500
tyranny. And even if you trust that to Obama,

00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:29.619
you never know whose hand is going to be on that

00:18:29.619 --> 00:18:31.440
key next. And all they have to do is turn it.

00:18:31.779 --> 00:18:34.480
And there's nothing we can do to stop it. The

00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.019
only thing that's restraining these programs

00:18:36.019 --> 00:18:39.950
really is policy, more so than law. And the president

00:18:39.950 --> 00:18:42.650
at any time can sign a napkin and those policies

00:18:42.650 --> 00:18:47.970
change. Well, after that, I went six months without

00:18:47.970 --> 00:18:50.730
giving any interviews because I didn't want people

00:18:50.730 --> 00:18:52.410
to talk about me. I wanted them to talk about

00:18:52.410 --> 00:18:54.069
what actually mattered. And the government, of

00:18:54.069 --> 00:18:56.190
course, was trying very hard to change the conversation.

00:18:56.990 --> 00:18:59.349
as they always do, to be about who is this guy?

00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:01.349
What have they done? What's wrong with them?

00:19:01.369 --> 00:19:03.309
What are their problems? Who is this loony guy?

00:19:04.049 --> 00:19:07.470
So they can controversialize the source of a

00:19:07.470 --> 00:19:10.130
story rather than having to confront the story

00:19:10.130 --> 00:19:15.490
itself. And that's why I said I really kind of

00:19:15.490 --> 00:19:22.509
appreciate your take on the media and everything

00:19:22.509 --> 00:19:26.500
like that. When you don't tell your story, you

00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:28.859
know, other people will tell it for you. They'll

00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:30.579
say so many things about you and they'll have

00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:32.880
these misimpressions like I did because of something

00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.500
as stupid as the avatar that you were using on

00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:37.920
Twitter, right? Where I think it's a certain

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.759
kind of show with a certain kind of guy and it's

00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:42.220
this crazy stuff. But when I actually listen

00:19:42.220 --> 00:19:45.400
to you, when I actually look at the facts, right?

00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:49.009
And when I hear you just speak. I go, actually,

00:19:49.109 --> 00:19:51.609
this is a thoughtful guy. Actually, this is somebody

00:19:51.609 --> 00:19:53.329
who does care, who does want to look at these

00:19:53.329 --> 00:19:56.390
things deeply. And appearances and our first

00:19:56.390 --> 00:19:59.970
impressions can be very misleading. I work hard

00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:02.210
on that. I try to mislead people. It's good.

00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:05.380
Works to my advantage. You're doing a good job,

00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:08.680
man. Thank you. I want to bring it back to when

00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.559
you first started with the NSA. You started as

00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:14.920
a contractor, right? What was your initial impression,

00:20:14.980 --> 00:20:18.519
and when did you know that things were really

00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:21.240
squirrely with the programs they were implementing?

00:20:22.600 --> 00:20:25.039
So I'm not saying this to put you on the spot.

00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:26.720
I know you've been a busy guy. I know you haven't

00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.799
done, I think, shows recently. You come back

00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.839
from a break, right? But have you read the book?

00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:36.400
Because it'll just help me put things in frame.

00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:37.859
If you haven't got a chance to read it, you have

00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:39.539
my book. No, I have not read your book or got

00:20:39.539 --> 00:20:42.559
a copy of it. Okay, well, I will send you a signed

00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:44.319
copy, brother. Beautiful, thank you. And I hope

00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.920
you'll read it and I hope you'll enjoy it. But

00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:51.869
all right, so... I had a really weird history

00:20:51.869 --> 00:20:54.589
in the intelligence community. I grew up in a

00:20:54.589 --> 00:20:58.980
federal family. In the shadow of Fort Meade,

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:00.579
right, all these little suburban communities

00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:03.200
in Maryland where basically the entire industry

00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:05.839
of the state is the federal government of all

00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:08.559
these different agencies and then all the subcontractors,

00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.539
all the defense industries that serve that government

00:21:11.539 --> 00:21:14.079
and really are kind of our war -making machine,

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.359
our system of control for the country and the

00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.859
world broadly. All that stuff spreads in, you

00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:24.019
know, a couple hundred mile radius out of D .C.

00:21:26.449 --> 00:21:30.490
My mother worked for the district courts, or

00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:33.029
rather the federal courts, and it's kind of funny

00:21:33.029 --> 00:21:34.750
because she still works there, and those are

00:21:34.750 --> 00:21:36.130
the courts that are trying to throw me in jail

00:21:36.130 --> 00:21:39.069
for the rest of my life now. My father worked

00:21:39.069 --> 00:21:41.730
for the Coast Guard, retired after 30 years.

00:21:41.769 --> 00:21:43.650
My grandfather was an admiral, and then he worked

00:21:43.650 --> 00:21:49.369
for the FBI. As far back as it goes, my family,

00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:53.130
my whole line of family, even generations back,

00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:57.319
was working for the government. So it was pretty

00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.960
ordinary, pretty expected for me to go into the

00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.660
same kind of work. Now, I started. I wasn't super

00:22:04.660 --> 00:22:12.740
successful in school because I felt, and you

00:22:12.740 --> 00:22:13.960
know, this is the most arrogant thing in the

00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:21.539
world that anybody says, that I had more to learn.

00:22:22.379 --> 00:22:25.660
from computers than I did from, you know, biology

00:22:25.660 --> 00:22:29.539
class. And so I spent more and more time focusing

00:22:29.539 --> 00:22:31.740
on technology. Then I got mono, and I dropped

00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:37.319
out of high school. And now it's like, all right,

00:22:37.339 --> 00:22:40.779
how do I make this up? I say drop out of high

00:22:40.779 --> 00:22:42.819
school, but I'm actually going to community college,

00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:45.059
right? They called it concurrent enrollment,

00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:46.880
where I'm not taking any classes at high school.

00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.410
I'm going to community college instead. And I'm

00:22:51.410 --> 00:22:53.549
not doing that great there either. Like, it's

00:22:53.549 --> 00:22:56.410
fine. You know, I'm enjoying it. But, you know,

00:22:56.450 --> 00:22:59.890
school is school. I want, I can't wait to be

00:22:59.890 --> 00:23:05.410
grown. You're bored. And I think a lot of people

00:23:05.410 --> 00:23:09.509
have felt that. But I ran into somebody at the

00:23:09.509 --> 00:23:11.069
community college who ran their own home -based

00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:14.509
business doing web design. And they could see

00:23:14.509 --> 00:23:16.589
I was kind of technical, and they went, hey,

00:23:16.650 --> 00:23:18.269
do you want to work for me? And I was like, well,

00:23:18.369 --> 00:23:21.829
that sounds great. And so I started doing web

00:23:21.829 --> 00:23:24.049
design really, really early on. This is like,

00:23:24.210 --> 00:23:30.910
gosh, I don't know, probably 1998 vintage, during

00:23:30.910 --> 00:23:33.190
the big boom and then the collapse that followed.

00:23:34.390 --> 00:23:38.029
And the funny thing is she worked, she was married

00:23:38.029 --> 00:23:42.779
to an NSA analyst, a linguist, right? And so

00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:47.279
she lived on Fort Meade, and she ran her business

00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.099
out of their home on Fort Meade. It's right up

00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:52.720
the street from the NSA. So before I'm even working

00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.119
there, I'm driving past this building all the

00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.079
time and trying to figure out, you know, what

00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:01.380
the next step is going to be. And I enjoy this.

00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:03.640
It's a good thing for me, and, like, it works

00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.660
well. And I start getting trained and certified,

00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:09.920
all these little industry stamps you've got to

00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.019
get as a technologist to say, oh, you know this

00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:14.440
program or whatever. And just start climbing

00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:19.779
the ladder. But then 9 -11 happens. And I'm on

00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:22.680
Fort Meade when 9 -11 happens. I'm just going

00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.460
into work. And I tell this in the book in some

00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:29.500
detail. And I think it's very much worth reading

00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:31.700
for people who don't know this because this is

00:24:31.700 --> 00:24:33.660
forgotten history. How old were you at the time?

00:24:34.709 --> 00:24:39.710
Gosh, I was born in 83, so I was probably 18

00:24:39.710 --> 00:24:48.289
years old. And, yeah, I had just turned 18 a

00:24:48.289 --> 00:24:54.410
couple months before. And what people forget

00:24:54.410 --> 00:24:58.309
is who knew what was going on before anybody

00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:02.369
else on September 11th? The intelligence community,

00:25:02.630 --> 00:25:08.569
right? And what did they do? Did they give out

00:25:08.569 --> 00:25:10.529
a public warning? Did they tell you guys to evacuate?

00:25:10.690 --> 00:25:12.750
Did they say do this, that, or that? No, no.

00:25:14.130 --> 00:25:19.390
Not for everybody, not for a long time. But at

00:25:19.390 --> 00:25:25.069
the NSA, then director Michael Hayden, he was

00:25:25.069 --> 00:25:27.029
a general, he later became director of the CIA,

00:25:27.250 --> 00:25:32.930
ordered the entire campus evacuated. thousands,

00:25:32.970 --> 00:25:35.329
tens of thousands of people, actually, and just

00:25:35.329 --> 00:25:39.509
said, go home, right? The CIA did the same thing.

00:25:39.529 --> 00:25:42.990
They were running on skeleton crews. At the moment,

00:25:43.049 --> 00:25:45.849
the country needed them more than they ever had,

00:25:46.029 --> 00:25:52.849
right? And I get a call. Well, I hear a call

00:25:52.849 --> 00:25:58.359
that's from my boss's wife, her husband. To her.

00:25:58.460 --> 00:26:00.579
He's calling from the NSA and saying, hey, you

00:26:00.579 --> 00:26:02.059
know, I think Ed should leave for the day because

00:26:02.059 --> 00:26:04.000
I'm the only employee in this business besides

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:06.539
her. Because I think they're going to close the

00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.299
base down. And I'm like, this is crazy. It never

00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:10.000
closes down. We don't know what's happening.

00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:13.319
Then we start checking the news, which is through

00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.559
websites, right? Because we're doing all this

00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:17.940
stuff. And suddenly it's the big story everywhere.

00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:21.559
And, you know, nobody understands how big it

00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.900
is yet. Most of us are like, oh, it's going to

00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:26.299
mess with our workday. Oh, it's going to mess

00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:30.660
with our commute. But when I'm leaving, I hear

00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:32.880
car horns all over the base. It's the craziest

00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.359
thing because this is a military base, right?

00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:36.960
It's right outside the NSA. And I enter just

00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.359
this absolute state of pandemonium as I go past

00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.700
K -9 Road, which is the road that travels right

00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:47.079
in front of the NSA's headquarters. And it's

00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:49.759
just a parking lot as far as you can see. They

00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:54.039
have military police out under. The stoplights

00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.000
directing traffic because it's this mass evacuation.

00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.220
And I still have no idea what's happening. The

00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:04.440
story is still developing. But I will never forget

00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:12.839
that image. Why did these people have so much

00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:15.380
power and so much money and so much authority

00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:18.160
that if at the moments we need them the most,

00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.589
they're the first ones in the country. That are

00:27:21.589 --> 00:27:25.130
leaving their buildings. And, you know, later

00:27:25.130 --> 00:27:31.289
on, they said, and this is covered in a book,

00:27:31.450 --> 00:27:36.230
I believe. I think it's James Bamford who interviewed

00:27:36.230 --> 00:27:39.569
that director of NSA who gave that order about

00:27:39.569 --> 00:27:41.930
what was happening. He was going, well, you know,

00:27:41.950 --> 00:27:44.589
he called his wife and he was asking where their

00:27:44.589 --> 00:27:46.109
kids were and everything like that. And then

00:27:46.109 --> 00:27:50.519
after that, he wanted to. think about, well,

00:27:50.579 --> 00:27:52.799
where could these other planes that they knew

00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:54.779
were in the air that hadn't struck yet, where

00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:57.900
could they be headed? And this sort of shows

00:27:57.900 --> 00:28:01.480
how self -centric the intelligence community

00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:05.700
is. This is the D .C. metro area, right? They

00:28:05.700 --> 00:28:08.079
could hit the White House. They could hit Congress.

00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:10.759
They could hit the Supreme Court, right? And

00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:13.059
they go, oh, they're going to fly their planes

00:28:13.059 --> 00:28:15.059
into the CIA headquarters, or they're going to

00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:18.009
fly their planes into the NSA headquarters. And,

00:28:18.049 --> 00:28:20.470
of course, it was never realistic that these

00:28:20.470 --> 00:28:23.869
would be the targets. But on that basis, they

00:28:23.869 --> 00:28:26.309
were like, ooh, let's get our bacon out of the

00:28:26.309 --> 00:28:29.829
pan. Now, I don't say this. I'm sorry, but just

00:28:29.829 --> 00:28:33.710
in the interest of, wasn't it possible that they

00:28:33.710 --> 00:28:35.230
could have attacked those places? I mean, they

00:28:35.230 --> 00:28:38.569
attacked the Pentagon. They knew that there was

00:28:38.569 --> 00:28:42.069
attacks. Look, it's absolutely possible they

00:28:42.069 --> 00:28:45.609
could have attacked your Denny's. Right. But

00:28:45.609 --> 00:28:50.210
it's a question of risk assessment. If you have

00:28:50.210 --> 00:28:53.990
planes in the air, if you believe there's an

00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:55.650
ongoing terrorist attack that's happening in

00:28:55.650 --> 00:29:00.049
the United States right now, and if you have

00:29:00.049 --> 00:29:03.549
built history's greatest surveillance agencies,

00:29:03.750 --> 00:29:08.210
the most powerful intelligence forces in the

00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:11.559
history of the species, You are going to take

00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:13.640
those off the board, or at least the majority

00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:17.039
of their personnel off the board then, in a chance

00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:20.319
that you have no sort of grounds for substantiating

00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:22.400
that they could be targeting you to begin with,

00:29:22.460 --> 00:29:25.759
simply because they could? Well, somebody else

00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.680
will. get hit with those as you say it's going

00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:31.299
to be the pentagon right it's going to be at

00:29:31.299 --> 00:29:33.359
the world trade center it's going to be someone

00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:36.460
somewhere and the more minutes you're in front

00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:38.700
of that desk the higher the chances even if it's

00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:40.779
a very small chance even if it's somebody who

00:29:40.779 --> 00:29:42.940
doesn't work on terrorism right maybe if it's

00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:46.160
somebody who normally works finance in north

00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.730
korea Right. But they go, look, this is an emergency.

00:29:48.829 --> 00:29:50.289
Everybody understands. You don't need to explain

00:29:50.289 --> 00:29:53.890
this. You just go stop what you're doing. Look

00:29:53.890 --> 00:29:56.410
at financial transactions related to who purchased

00:29:56.410 --> 00:29:58.730
these plane tickets. Do this. You just go full

00:29:58.730 --> 00:30:01.349
spectrum and go anything you can do right now.

00:30:01.369 --> 00:30:03.170
If the building gets hit, we get hit. That's

00:30:03.170 --> 00:30:06.369
what we signed up for. Nobody wants that. Right.

00:30:06.410 --> 00:30:11.250
That's not the desired outcome. But if they had

00:30:11.250 --> 00:30:14.490
asked the staff to do that. They all would have

00:30:14.490 --> 00:30:17.130
agreed. That's what these people signed up to

00:30:17.130 --> 00:30:19.910
do. And yet the director goes, no, we're just

00:30:19.910 --> 00:30:22.829
no. We're not going to take that risk. And this

00:30:22.829 --> 00:30:27.769
is, I think, it says so much about the bureaucratic

00:30:27.769 --> 00:30:31.690
character of how government works. The people

00:30:31.690 --> 00:30:36.990
who rise to the top of these governments. It's

00:30:36.990 --> 00:30:39.569
about risk management for them, right? It's about

00:30:39.569 --> 00:30:41.769
never being criticized for something. And this

00:30:41.769 --> 00:30:44.109
is, if we want to get really controversial, this

00:30:44.109 --> 00:30:47.250
is something that will haunt me because people

00:30:47.250 --> 00:30:50.309
will bring it up again and again and again. People

00:30:50.309 --> 00:30:53.089
ask about, you know, people still criticize me.

00:30:53.690 --> 00:30:55.710
In the book, you know, I talk about aliens and

00:30:55.710 --> 00:30:57.049
chemtrails and things like that and the fact

00:30:57.049 --> 00:31:00.170
that there's no evidence for that. I went looking

00:31:00.170 --> 00:31:05.430
on the network, right? And I know, Joe, I know.

00:31:06.479 --> 00:31:09.880
You want there to be aliens. I do. I know Neil

00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:12.779
deGrasse Tyson badly wants there to be aliens.

00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:16.700
And there probably are, right? But the idea that

00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:20.039
we're hiding them, if we are hiding them, I had

00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:22.299
ridiculous access to the networks of the NSA,

00:31:22.420 --> 00:31:26.279
the CIA, the military, all these groups. I couldn't

00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:28.240
find anything, right? So if it's hidden, and

00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:31.039
it could be hidden, it's hidden really damn well,

00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.599
even from people who are on the inside. But the

00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:37.039
main thing is, Conspiracy theories, right? Everybody

00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.000
wants to believe in conspiracy theories because

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.980
it helps life make sense. It helps us believe

00:31:42.980 --> 00:31:46.519
that somebody is in control, that somebody is

00:31:46.519 --> 00:31:49.099
calling the shots, that these things all happen

00:31:49.099 --> 00:31:52.559
for a reason, this, that, and the other. There

00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.049
are real conspiracies. But they're not typically,

00:31:57.230 --> 00:31:59.789
you know, they've got tens of thousands of people

00:31:59.789 --> 00:32:01.430
working on them unless you're talking about the

00:32:01.430 --> 00:32:03.109
existence of the intelligence community itself,

00:32:03.210 --> 00:32:07.369
which is basically constructed on the idea that

00:32:07.369 --> 00:32:11.170
you can get, I think there's 4 million or 1 .4

00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:13.390
million people in the United States who hold

00:32:13.390 --> 00:32:16.849
security clearances. And you can get all of these

00:32:16.849 --> 00:32:19.450
people to not talk ever to journalists, this,

00:32:19.589 --> 00:32:24.390
that, or the other. When you look back at the

00:32:24.390 --> 00:32:26.769
9 -11 report, and when you look back at the history

00:32:26.769 --> 00:32:28.829
of what actually happened, what we can prove,

00:32:28.970 --> 00:32:30.609
right, not what we can speculate on, but what

00:32:30.609 --> 00:32:37.190
are at least the commonly agreed facts, it's

00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:40.509
very clear to me, as someone who worked in the

00:32:40.509 --> 00:32:42.529
intelligence community, not during this period,

00:32:42.609 --> 00:32:44.789
of course, I was too young, but very shortly

00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:48.750
thereafter, that these attacks could have been

00:32:48.750 --> 00:32:51.369
prevented. And in fact, the government says this

00:32:51.369 --> 00:32:54.490
too. But the government goes, the reason that

00:32:54.490 --> 00:32:56.569
these attacks happened, the reason that they

00:32:56.569 --> 00:33:01.069
weren't prevented, is what they call stovepiping,

00:33:01.130 --> 00:33:03.829
right? There was not enough sharing. They needed

00:33:03.829 --> 00:33:06.690
to break down the walls and the restrictions

00:33:06.690 --> 00:33:10.150
that were chaining these poor patriots at the

00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:12.210
NSA and the CIA and the FBI from all working

00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:14.809
on the same team. And to some extent, they're

00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:17.660
correct. on this, right? There were limits on

00:33:17.660 --> 00:33:19.960
the way agencies were supposed to play ball with

00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:22.799
each other, but I worked there and I know how

00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:24.279
much of this is bullshit and how much of this

00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:29.940
is not. Those are procedural and policy limits,

00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:31.980
in some cases legal limits, on what can be shared

00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:34.960
without following a process, without doing this,

00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.880
that, or the other, without basically asking

00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:39.559
for permission, without getting a sign -off,

00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:43.359
or anything like that. If the FBI wanted to send

00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:45.859
absolutely everything they had to the CIA, they

00:33:45.859 --> 00:33:47.759
could have done so. If the CIA wanted to send

00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:49.640
everything they had to the FBI, they could have

00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:53.480
done so. They didn't, and people died as a result.

00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:55.740
Now, government goes, bureaucratic procedural

00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:58.619
realism was responsible, and it's because we

00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:00.539
had too many restrictions on the intelligence

00:34:00.539 --> 00:34:02.180
community. And this is what led to the world

00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:04.119
post -9 -11, where all of our rights sort of

00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:06.160
evaporated, was they went, well, restrictions

00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.840
on what these agencies can do are costing lives.

00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:12.360
Therefore, naturally, we just have to unchain

00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:14.360
these guys and everything will be better, right?

00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:18.019
And if you remember that post -9 -11 moment,

00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:20.619
you can understand how that actually could come

00:34:20.619 --> 00:34:23.199
off as persuasive, how that might be a kind of

00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.199
thing that you go, all right, well, that makes

00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:28.920
sense, because everybody was terrified. There

00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:31.860
were people quite quickly who got their heads

00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:33.940
back on their shoulders the right way. There

00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:35.559
were some of them who never lost their heads

00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:39.800
at all and who protested the Iraq War at the

00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:41.639
same time Maidah himself was signing up to go

00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.650
fight it. Volunteering for the Army. We'll get

00:34:44.650 --> 00:34:52.329
into that in a minute. But everything that has

00:34:52.329 --> 00:34:56.210
followed in the decades past came from the fact

00:34:56.210 --> 00:35:00.929
that in a moment of fear, we lost our heads.

00:35:01.150 --> 00:35:04.369
And we abandoned all the traditional constitutional

00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:07.210
restraints that we put on these agencies. And

00:35:07.210 --> 00:35:09.909
we abandoned all of the traditional... political

00:35:09.909 --> 00:35:12.909
restraints and just social constraints, ideological

00:35:12.909 --> 00:35:18.590
systems of belief about the limitations that

00:35:18.590 --> 00:35:20.590
the secret police should have in a free and open

00:35:20.590 --> 00:35:24.550
society. And we went, look, you know, terrorists,

00:35:24.949 --> 00:35:28.070
we created shows like 24 and Jack Bauer, where

00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:29.710
he's like threatening to knife people's eyeballs

00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:31.230
out if they won't tell him this, that, or the

00:35:31.230 --> 00:35:36.829
other. And we entered this era of increasingly

00:35:36.829 --> 00:35:40.039
unlimited government as a result. And now, in

00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:41.880
hindsight, we go, oh, we should have been surprised.

00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:46.519
But at the time, everyone panicked, right? But

00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:49.340
if you go back to, did that help? And we know

00:35:49.340 --> 00:35:51.980
the answer now is, in fact, no, it did not. It

00:35:51.980 --> 00:35:55.860
made things worse. I don't think any historian

00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:58.280
is going to look at the Bush administration and

00:35:58.280 --> 00:35:59.739
go, this improved the position of the United

00:35:59.739 --> 00:36:05.519
States in the world. But if you go back, you

00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:07.780
know, wind back the tape to that pre -9 -11 moment.

00:36:08.549 --> 00:36:11.070
Wind back the tape to those silos and those walls

00:36:11.070 --> 00:36:12.570
that they said needed to come down because that

00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:14.489
was restraining government. Instead of the rules

00:36:14.489 --> 00:36:16.170
that said, well, you can share these things,

00:36:16.289 --> 00:36:17.929
but there's got to be a basis. There's got to

00:36:17.929 --> 00:36:19.909
be a justification. You've got to go, why are

00:36:19.909 --> 00:36:21.630
we trading people's information like baseball

00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:25.389
cards and all of this stuff? It's super easy.

00:36:26.030 --> 00:36:28.889
As an intelligence officer, to justify sharing

00:36:28.889 --> 00:36:32.150
information about a suspected terrorist who you

00:36:32.150 --> 00:36:34.769
think is planning to kill people or is even just

00:36:34.769 --> 00:36:36.690
in a country they shouldn't be or a place they

00:36:36.690 --> 00:36:38.769
shouldn't be or doing something you don't think

00:36:38.769 --> 00:36:41.829
they should be with another agency, because no

00:36:41.829 --> 00:36:43.269
one's going to question that. A judge isn't going

00:36:43.269 --> 00:36:44.789
to question that. Any judge in the world will

00:36:44.789 --> 00:36:46.530
stamp that warrant without even thinking about

00:36:46.530 --> 00:36:50.159
it and then go to bed that night. you know, without

00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:52.940
a care in the world. Because you're not spying

00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:54.179
on a journalist. You're not spying on a human

00:36:54.179 --> 00:36:56.440
rights defender, right? This is not an edge case.

00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:58.639
This is someone that you believe to be associated

00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:03.019
with Al -Qaeda or whatever. Now, this is all

00:37:03.019 --> 00:37:05.219
a lot of preamble to say that essential fact.

00:37:06.500 --> 00:37:08.900
Government agrees, everyone agrees, the attacks

00:37:08.900 --> 00:37:11.800
probably could have been prevented if information

00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:15.559
had been shared. So, why wasn't the information

00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:19.110
shared? Government says... Information wasn't

00:37:19.110 --> 00:37:21.909
shared because of these restrictions, and it's

00:37:21.909 --> 00:37:25.030
half true, because every important lie has some

00:37:25.030 --> 00:37:27.929
kernel of truth to it. And there were these barriers.

00:37:28.050 --> 00:37:30.730
But the reality is, why were those barriers respected

00:37:30.730 --> 00:37:35.809
in the case of a major terrorist plot? Why wasn't

00:37:35.809 --> 00:37:38.130
the CIA sharing information with the FBI? Why

00:37:38.130 --> 00:37:39.809
wasn't the FBI sharing information with the NSA?

00:37:39.869 --> 00:37:41.570
Why wasn't the NSA sharing information with the

00:37:41.570 --> 00:37:45.599
CIA in the case of a major terrorist plot? And

00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:47.679
if you've worked in government, if you've worked

00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:49.159
in the intelligence community, if you've worked

00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:51.800
in any large institution, if you work at a company

00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:56.000
that sells batteries, you know that every office

00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:59.440
is fighting the other office for budget, for

00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.559
clout, for promotions. And this is the sad reality

00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:06.760
of what actually happened. Every one of those

00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.440
agencies wanted to be the guy who busted the

00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:12.039
plot. They wanted to be the one who got credit

00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:15.000
for it. And they didn't realize how serious it

00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.820
was until it was too late because they were competing

00:38:18.820 --> 00:38:21.460
with each other rather than cooperating. That's

00:38:21.460 --> 00:38:23.940
exactly what I was going to ask you if that was

00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:26.199
the issue, the competition between these agencies,

00:38:26.260 --> 00:38:30.760
because they are very proud of the CIA accomplishing

00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:32.599
something or the FBI accomplishing something,

00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:35.559
and they want to be the one to take credit for

00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:38.070
that. Yeah, and I mean, I think it's important,

00:38:38.190 --> 00:38:41.070
like in their defense, because nobody else here

00:38:41.070 --> 00:38:44.909
is going to provide a defense for them, is that

00:38:44.909 --> 00:38:50.289
that's actually darkly human. Again, this happens

00:38:50.289 --> 00:38:52.489
in every industry. This happens in every sort

00:38:52.489 --> 00:38:54.429
of big corporate thing because you want to get

00:38:54.429 --> 00:38:56.750
promoted and, you know, everybody's putting in

00:38:56.750 --> 00:38:58.449
their like achievements at the end of the year

00:38:58.449 --> 00:39:00.429
for what they did. And if you're the guy who

00:39:00.429 --> 00:39:01.949
does that, you're going straight to the top.

00:39:02.170 --> 00:39:06.000
But their solution instead of... So we have a

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:07.739
weird delay here for folks that are listening.

00:39:07.860 --> 00:39:10.340
So their solution, instead of having someone

00:39:10.340 --> 00:39:13.219
be responsible for bridging the gap and providing

00:39:13.219 --> 00:39:15.719
that information to each individual agency, their

00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:20.139
solution was mass surveillance? Well, no, they're

00:39:20.139 --> 00:39:24.280
different things. 9 -11 is what woke these guys

00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:29.119
up, basically. And they went, well, we screwed

00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:34.119
up and Americans died as a result. We really

00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.739
don't want to take the hit on that. And to be

00:39:36.739 --> 00:39:38.380
honest, the government had no interest in putting

00:39:38.380 --> 00:39:41.179
the hit on them. To be honest, the public had

00:39:41.179 --> 00:39:43.860
no interest in putting the hit on them at the

00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:47.519
time. Because everybody understood terrorism

00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:50.039
is a real thing. There are bad people in the

00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:52.380
world. And that's true, right? That will always

00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:53.800
be true. There's always going to be criminals.

00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.219
There's always going to be terrorists. Whether

00:39:56.219 --> 00:39:58.179
they're at your church, whether they're across

00:39:58.179 --> 00:40:01.199
the ocean, there are people out there who are

00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:03.900
angry, they're disenfranchised, they're violent,

00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:08.619
and they just want to harm something. They want

00:40:08.619 --> 00:40:10.780
to change something, even in a negative way,

00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:16.519
because that's what they feel is all they have

00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:19.420
left. Which, these are criminals, right? These

00:40:19.420 --> 00:40:21.860
are people that we don't need to pity. But if

00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:23.920
we ever want to stop it, we do need to understand

00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.079
it and where those things come from, where those

00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:31.420
drives come from in the first place. But basically

00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:33.300
everybody went, all right, how do we stop this?

00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.199
Because nobody wants to feel unsafe. Nobody wants

00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:36.679
to feel like the building's going to come down

00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:38.980
the next time you go in it. And so everybody

00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:43.559
just went, I don't care who does it, stop it.

00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.579
And they said this to Dick Cheney. which is a

00:40:46.579 --> 00:40:50.219
historic mistake, because Dick Cheney knows how

00:40:50.219 --> 00:40:54.139
government works. He was the person in that White

00:40:54.139 --> 00:40:57.480
House who was best placed to know all the levers

00:40:57.480 --> 00:40:59.159
of government, all the interagency cooperation,

00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:01.280
where we were strong, where we were weak, what

00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:04.179
we could do, what we were not allowed to do.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.380
And what he did was he took that little dial

00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:09.920
on what we're not allowed to do, and he changed

00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.760
it all the way until it broke and snapped off,

00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:14.559
and then there was nothing that we couldn't do

00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:18.559
anymore. And you were there while this was happening?

00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:27.639
No, I was not. Again, this is 2001. I was 18

00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:29.539
years old. I was working on the base. I drove

00:41:29.539 --> 00:41:31.320
past the building, but that was it. This is all

00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.159
hindsight. This is biography. This is documented

00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:36.420
history, but this is not the gospel of Edward

00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:38.980
Snowden. I don't know this. This is public record.

00:41:39.099 --> 00:41:44.880
This is what we all know. What we have, though,

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.300
the reason that I bring this up is this is a

00:41:47.300 --> 00:41:48.980
teachable moment because there's so many people

00:41:48.980 --> 00:41:52.420
right now in the Trump administration who go,

00:41:52.500 --> 00:41:56.019
look, this guy has too much power. He's abusing

00:41:56.019 --> 00:41:57.639
it against immigrants. He's abusing it against

00:41:57.639 --> 00:41:59.780
domestic opponents. He's doing whatever. He's

00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:02.400
trying to hurt political rivals in the next election.

00:42:02.820 --> 00:42:04.639
All of this stuff. And, you know, we can get

00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:06.920
into this stuff later if you want in detail.

00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:09.500
But the bottom line is they're going, this is

00:42:09.500 --> 00:42:11.969
a guy. who's in the White House who's thrown

00:42:11.969 --> 00:42:14.309
elbows, right? He doesn't really care. He wants

00:42:14.309 --> 00:42:17.650
to hurt people as long as he can convince the

00:42:17.650 --> 00:42:20.090
Americans that those are the bad guys, right?

00:42:20.150 --> 00:42:21.809
That's the enemy. It doesn't matter if they're

00:42:21.809 --> 00:42:23.210
far away. It doesn't matter if they're close

00:42:23.210 --> 00:42:26.710
at home. Whoever he's against, he's going to

00:42:26.710 --> 00:42:30.570
harm. And the dark thing is, this is actually

00:42:30.570 --> 00:42:35.670
why he was elected. In moments of fear, where

00:42:35.670 --> 00:42:37.969
the world starts falling apart, and this happens

00:42:37.969 --> 00:42:40.139
in authoritarian country after country, This

00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:43.380
is why you have Vladimir Putin in Russia, who's

00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:46.760
been there for 20 years, right? President for

00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:49.840
basically 20 years. Think about that. You know,

00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.780
he sort of skipped in the middle there because

00:42:52.780 --> 00:42:55.579
he had to dodge the fact that presidents can

00:42:55.579 --> 00:42:57.619
only serve so many consecutive terms. So he dropped

00:42:57.619 --> 00:42:59.079
down to prime minister and then came back as

00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:02.420
president. But think about that. How do you get

00:43:02.420 --> 00:43:05.300
that kind of political longevity? And it's because

00:43:05.300 --> 00:43:07.139
if you know anything about Russian history, which

00:43:07.139 --> 00:43:10.079
even I don't know that much about, the 90s, after

00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.219
the collapse of the Soviet Union, were an extraordinarily

00:43:12.219 --> 00:43:15.059
dark time. If you look at Russian cinema, all

00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:17.880
they had were gangster movies, right? All they

00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:19.920
had were the disintegration of society, how things

00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.559
are dark and broken. No one trusts each other.

00:43:22.619 --> 00:43:24.960
Pensions were no longer being paid. Social security's

00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:27.539
not there anymore. Like, there's nothing to buy,

00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:29.739
there's nothing to do, there's no job. No one

00:43:29.739 --> 00:43:32.949
had a future. And so they went... If there's

00:43:32.949 --> 00:43:34.550
somebody who can lead us out of this, if there's

00:43:34.550 --> 00:43:36.710
somebody who will fix this, who will find us

00:43:36.710 --> 00:43:39.130
an enemy and defeat that enemy to restore prosperity,

00:43:39.449 --> 00:43:42.289
we'll put them in office. We see it happen in

00:43:42.289 --> 00:43:45.110
Turkey with Erdogan, right? We've seen it happen

00:43:45.110 --> 00:43:48.329
successively with bad governments, even in Western

00:43:48.329 --> 00:43:53.670
democracies. We see it happening, sadly. in places

00:43:53.670 --> 00:43:57.170
like Poland and Hungary. You can even argue it's

00:43:57.170 --> 00:44:00.630
happening in the United Kingdom, right? And now

00:44:00.630 --> 00:44:02.289
there are a lot of people arguing that's exactly

00:44:02.289 --> 00:44:04.869
what we're seeing with Donald Trump's White House

00:44:04.869 --> 00:44:08.789
in the United States. And this is the lesson

00:44:08.789 --> 00:44:13.130
that we didn't learn from 2001, is when we become

00:44:13.130 --> 00:44:18.309
fearful, we become vulnerable, right? To anyone...

00:44:18.590 --> 00:44:20.650
who promises they will make things better, even

00:44:20.650 --> 00:44:22.590
if they have no ability to make things better,

00:44:22.650 --> 00:44:24.210
even if they will actively make things worse,

00:44:24.269 --> 00:44:27.050
even if they will make things better for themselves

00:44:27.050 --> 00:44:30.889
and their buddies by taking from you. But if

00:44:30.889 --> 00:44:33.530
they tell you that they'll make things better

00:44:33.530 --> 00:44:37.789
and you believe them in a moment of fear, that

00:44:37.789 --> 00:44:40.670
typically leads to unfortunate outcomes. So sorry,

00:44:40.730 --> 00:44:42.250
let me turn this back over to you because we

00:44:42.250 --> 00:44:44.460
got way off track there. No, that's all right.

00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:46.599
I want to bring it back to the initial question.

00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:49.320
So you're working for the NSA. When do you realize

00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:52.019
there's a huge issue, and when do you feel this

00:44:52.019 --> 00:44:54.980
responsibility to let... the american people

00:44:54.980 --> 00:44:57.659
know about this issue like when when do you contact

00:44:57.659 --> 00:44:59.980
these journalists and what was the thought process

00:44:59.980 --> 00:45:03.059
regarding this like what what steps did you go

00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:05.719
through once you realize that this was in violation

00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:08.199
of the constitution and that even with the laws

00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:10.519
of the patriot act and the patriot act too things

00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:13.699
had changed so radically that you knew this was

00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:16.440
wrong and you had to do something about it you

00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:20.869
felt a responsibility to speak out Okay. So since

00:45:20.869 --> 00:45:23.010
we gave so much historical preamble, let me just

00:45:23.010 --> 00:45:25.389
give the Cliff Notes version to get us up to

00:45:25.389 --> 00:45:30.429
that. So after September 11th, I'm a little bit

00:45:30.429 --> 00:45:32.489
lost. I'm doing my technical stuff, but it doesn't

00:45:32.489 --> 00:45:34.329
really feel like it matters anymore. Like I'm

00:45:34.329 --> 00:45:35.989
making more money. I'm becoming more accomplished.

00:45:37.170 --> 00:45:39.769
But the world's on fire, right? You remember

00:45:39.769 --> 00:45:43.179
there was a crazy mood. patriotism in the country

00:45:43.179 --> 00:45:44.960
because we were all trying to come together to

00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:46.860
get through it. You remember, like, people were

00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:49.159
sticking Dixie cups on the top of every chain

00:45:49.159 --> 00:45:51.400
-link fence on every overpass. It was like, stand

00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:55.019
together, you know, never forget. United we stand.

00:45:55.260 --> 00:45:58.420
Flags on every car. Exactly. And, you know, I

00:45:58.420 --> 00:46:02.099
was a young guy who was not especially political,

00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:06.219
right? And I come from a military background,

00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.719
federal family, all that stuff, and so that means

00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:11.309
I'm very vulnerable. to this kind of stuff. I

00:46:11.309 --> 00:46:14.690
see it on the news, and Bush and all his sort

00:46:14.690 --> 00:46:18.409
of cronies are going, look, it's Al -Qaeda, it's

00:46:18.409 --> 00:46:20.869
a terrorist organization, they have all these

00:46:20.869 --> 00:46:23.789
international connections. There's Iraq, you

00:46:23.789 --> 00:46:25.969
know, dictators, weapons of mass destruction,

00:46:26.230 --> 00:46:28.309
they're holding the world at ransom. You got

00:46:28.309 --> 00:46:31.050
Colin Powell at the UN dangling little vials

00:46:31.050 --> 00:46:35.170
of like fake anthrax. And so I felt an obligation

00:46:35.170 --> 00:46:37.210
to do my part, and so I volunteered to join the

00:46:37.210 --> 00:46:40.539
army. You probably can't tell from looking at

00:46:40.539 --> 00:46:42.360
me, but I'm not going to be at the top of the

00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:47.579
MMA circuit anytime soon. So it didn't work out.

00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:49.920
I joined a special program that was called the

00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:51.920
18 X -ray program where they take you in off

00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:53.460
the street and they actually give you a shot

00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:56.440
at becoming a special forces soldier. So you

00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:58.940
train harder in special platoons, you go further.

00:46:59.139 --> 00:47:01.760
And I ended up breaking my legs, basically. So

00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:04.840
they put me out under special discharge. Yeah,

00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:08.920
it was basically shin splints that I was too

00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:12.780
dumb to get off of. So I kept marching underweight,

00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:15.000
and I'm a pretty light guy to begin with. I had

00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:18.820
a 24 -inch waist when I joined the Army. Girls

00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:23.460
are jealous. I think I weighed like 128 pounds.

00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:28.599
I was in great shape in boot camp because I came

00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.699
up really quick because all I could do was gain.

00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:36.639
But it was just too much on my frame because

00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:41.480
I wasn't that active. And so when you keep running

00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:43.639
on a stress injury, right, and you're running

00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:45.380
under weight with like rucksacks and things like

00:47:45.380 --> 00:47:48.480
that, you're running in like boots. And then

00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:50.719
you're doing exercise. And the Army is like a

00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:53.199
whole chapter in the book. You got your battle

00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:54.699
buddy, right, because they never allow you to

00:47:54.699 --> 00:47:56.639
be alone. You always got to have somebody watching

00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:01.150
you. They thought it was funny to put me. the

00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:03.269
smallest guy in the platoon, the drill sergeants

00:48:03.269 --> 00:48:05.849
did, with the biggest dude in the platoon, who

00:48:05.849 --> 00:48:07.710
was like an amateur bodybuilder. He was like,

00:48:07.769 --> 00:48:10.570
you know, 230 or 260, something like that. He

00:48:10.570 --> 00:48:13.489
was a big fellow. And so, you know, he would,

00:48:13.590 --> 00:48:16.210
when we're off in the woods doing these marches

00:48:16.210 --> 00:48:17.929
and things like that, we have to practice buddy

00:48:17.929 --> 00:48:19.570
carries, like the fireman's carry and things

00:48:19.570 --> 00:48:22.250
like that. He throws me around his neck, you

00:48:22.250 --> 00:48:24.090
know, I'm like a towel. He's just skipping down

00:48:24.090 --> 00:48:26.690
like it's nothing. And then I got to put him

00:48:26.690 --> 00:48:29.010
on me, and I'm just like, oh, God, dying. And

00:48:29.010 --> 00:48:34.760
it was... It was weirdly fun. I enjoyed it, but

00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:36.480
it was no good for my body. And so in a land

00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.639
navigation movement, I step off a log because

00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:41.780
I was on point. And on the other side of the

00:48:41.780 --> 00:48:43.800
log, because it's the woods in Georgia, Sand

00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:51.840
Hill, I see a snake. And so in my memory, it's

00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.940
like time slows down. Because in North Carolina,

00:48:55.179 --> 00:48:57.500
where I grew up, you think all snakes are poisonous.

00:48:59.779 --> 00:49:02.360
Sorry, there's an issue. No, we're good. It's

00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:04.579
completely fine. No, we're fine. There was something

00:49:04.579 --> 00:49:06.059
that happened on the screen. I wanted to make

00:49:06.059 --> 00:49:08.880
sure it was okay. No, that's just the FBI joining

00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:10.679
the chat. That's what I was worried about. There's

00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:14.920
a second image opened up here. Yeah, so anyway,

00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:18.400
I try to take a much longer step in midair. I

00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:23.880
land badly. And it's just one leg is like fire.

00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:27.010
I'm limping, I'm limping, I'm limping. But, you

00:49:27.010 --> 00:49:28.650
know, everybody says don't go to sick call because

00:49:28.650 --> 00:49:30.610
you go to sick call, you'll lose your slot, you'll

00:49:30.610 --> 00:49:32.750
end up general infantry or regular infantry.

00:49:34.849 --> 00:49:38.650
And so I go back. I just tough it out. I get

00:49:38.650 --> 00:49:40.630
in my rack, and the next morning when I get out

00:49:40.630 --> 00:49:42.849
of the rack, which is the top bunk bed, right?

00:49:43.940 --> 00:49:46.719
I jumped out, and my legs, they just give out

00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:49.599
underneath me. And I try to get up, and I just

00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:52.000
can't get up. And so I go to sick call, and I

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.119
end up going to the hospital, and they end up

00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:56.340
x -raying me, and they also x -ray my battle

00:49:56.340 --> 00:49:57.679
buddy because I've got to go there with somebody

00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.860
else. And he has a broken hip where they had

00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:03.699
to bring him to surgery. In the book, there's

00:50:03.699 --> 00:50:05.000
a lot more detail about it. It was kind of a

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.070
dramatic moment. But for me, they just said I

00:50:08.070 --> 00:50:10.449
had bilateral tibial fractures, right, all the

00:50:10.449 --> 00:50:13.269
way up my legs. They said I had spider webs.

00:50:13.849 --> 00:50:18.510
And the next phase of the training was jump school,

00:50:18.670 --> 00:50:20.929
right, where you got to jump out of a plane.

00:50:21.030 --> 00:50:25.969
And the doctor, you know, is like, son, if you

00:50:25.969 --> 00:50:28.869
jump on those legs, they're going to turn into

00:50:28.869 --> 00:50:33.219
powder. And he's like, I can hold you back. You

00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:35.900
know, we can put you for like six months, you

00:50:35.900 --> 00:50:38.099
stay off them, then you can go back through the

00:50:38.099 --> 00:50:40.940
whole cycle, right? Start basic from scratch.

00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:44.480
But you'll lose your slot in the Special Forces

00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:47.639
pipeline because of the way these things are

00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:49.619
scheduled and everything like that. And then

00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:51.199
you'll basically be reassigned to the needs of

00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:55.820
the Army. Or, which probably meant I was going

00:50:55.820 --> 00:50:57.880
back to IT, which was what I joined the Army

00:50:57.880 --> 00:51:03.420
to kind of escape. You can go out on this special

00:51:03.420 --> 00:51:05.380
kind of discharge that's called an administrative

00:51:05.380 --> 00:51:08.039
discharge, right? Normally you've got honorable

00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:10.019
discharge, dishonorable discharge, things like

00:51:10.019 --> 00:51:11.820
that. This is something for people who have been

00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:13.800
in for, I think, less than six months, where

00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:17.420
it's like annulling a marriage. It's as if it

00:51:17.420 --> 00:51:19.139
never happened. It's as if you never joined.

00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:22.679
And at the time, I was like, well, you know,

00:51:22.739 --> 00:51:26.159
that's very kind of him to do that. And I took

00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:29.860
it. You know, they sent me to sick call, or sorry,

00:51:29.860 --> 00:51:32.159
the sick bay, where you're in like the medical

00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:37.420
platoon and you do nothing for, I think about

00:51:37.420 --> 00:51:41.800
a month. And then they let you out once the paperwork

00:51:41.800 --> 00:51:45.059
all finishes. But in hindsight, I realized that

00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:48.829
if you take an administrative discharge, It exempts

00:51:48.829 --> 00:51:52.590
the Army for liability for your injuries. So

00:51:52.590 --> 00:51:55.329
actually what I thought was a kindness was just,

00:51:55.349 --> 00:51:57.309
you know, now if I had future problems with my

00:51:57.309 --> 00:51:59.829
legs, they wouldn't have to cover it or health

00:51:59.829 --> 00:52:02.030
insurance or any of those things. And it was

00:52:02.030 --> 00:52:03.929
just a funny thing. But anyway, I get out of

00:52:03.929 --> 00:52:09.550
the Army, and here I'm on crutches for a long

00:52:09.550 --> 00:52:13.010
time and just sort of trying to figure out, all

00:52:13.010 --> 00:52:17.659
right, well, what's next in life? Because I had

00:52:17.659 --> 00:52:21.119
gotten a basic security clearance just for going

00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:22.719
through signing up for the military process,

00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:28.239
I applied for a security guard position at the

00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:30.420
University of Maryland because it said you had

00:52:30.420 --> 00:52:32.460
to get a top secret clearance, which was a higher

00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:35.820
clearance than I had at the time. And I went,

00:52:35.860 --> 00:52:37.980
well, that sounds good because I knew if I combined

00:52:37.980 --> 00:52:40.940
my IT skills, which were now suddenly much more

00:52:40.940 --> 00:52:43.380
relevant again to my future, with a top secret

00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:45.400
security clearance because of the way it works,

00:52:45.820 --> 00:52:48.239
If you have top -secret security clearance and

00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:50.320
tech skills, you get paid a ridiculous amount

00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:53.219
of money for doing very little work. So it was

00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:54.980
like, all right, well, you know, I can basically

00:52:54.980 --> 00:52:57.360
make twice what I would be making in the private

00:52:57.360 --> 00:52:59.900
sector working for government at this level,

00:52:59.980 --> 00:53:02.639
at this phase. Because what we talked about earlier

00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:04.900
with September 11th and how the intelligence

00:53:04.900 --> 00:53:08.760
community changed, they no longer cared. That

00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:10.760
I hadn't graduated from college, right? And I

00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:12.780
had gotten a GED just by going in and taking

00:53:12.780 --> 00:53:15.960
a test. So for government purposes, it was the

00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:19.460
same as if I was a high school graduate. So now

00:53:19.460 --> 00:53:22.340
suddenly it was like these doors are open. Now

00:53:22.340 --> 00:53:26.260
this University of Maryland facility turned out

00:53:26.260 --> 00:53:32.059
to be an NSA facility. It was called CASEL, the

00:53:32.059 --> 00:53:34.559
Center for the Advanced Study of Language at

00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:38.320
the University of Maryland College Park. And

00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:41.440
all I was was literally a security guy walking

00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:43.760
around with a walkie -talkie, making sure nobody

00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:46.860
breaks in at night, managing the electronic alarm

00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:51.360
system and things like that. But once I had my

00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:54.059
foot in the door there, I could start climbing

00:53:54.059 --> 00:53:59.719
ladders step by step. And I applied for, or I

00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:03.019
went to a job fair, actually, that was only for

00:54:03.019 --> 00:54:06.860
people who had security clearances. And I ended

00:54:06.860 --> 00:54:08.360
up going to the table for one of the technical

00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:10.539
companies. It was a little tiny subcontractor

00:54:10.539 --> 00:54:15.099
nobody's ever heard of. And they said, you know,

00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:16.960
we've got tons of positions for somebody like

00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:20.539
you. Are you comfortable working nights? And

00:54:20.539 --> 00:54:22.820
I was like, yeah, you know, I wake up in the

00:54:22.820 --> 00:54:25.219
middle of the day anyway. That's fine with me.

00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:30.670
And suddenly... I've gone from working for the

00:54:30.670 --> 00:54:33.889
NSA through a university in a weird way, where

00:54:33.889 --> 00:54:35.710
it's like the NSA holds the clearance, but I'm

00:54:35.710 --> 00:54:38.409
formally an employee of the state of Maryland,

00:54:38.469 --> 00:54:40.349
of the college. And this is government, man.

00:54:40.389 --> 00:54:43.250
It's all these weird dodges and boondoggles for

00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:45.829
how people are employed there. Now, suddenly,

00:54:45.969 --> 00:54:50.170
I'm working at CIA headquarters, right? The place

00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:52.150
where all the movies show you swoop over the

00:54:52.150 --> 00:54:54.969
marble seal and everything like that. I'm the

00:54:54.969 --> 00:54:56.690
king of the castle, right? I'm there at the middle

00:54:56.690 --> 00:54:59.510
of the night when no one else is there. The lights

00:54:59.510 --> 00:55:02.349
are on motion sensors. It's the creepiest thing

00:55:02.349 --> 00:55:05.150
in the world. There's like flags on the wall

00:55:05.150 --> 00:55:08.130
that are just like gently billowing in the air

00:55:08.130 --> 00:55:10.989
conditioning like ghosts. The hallway lights

00:55:10.989 --> 00:55:13.250
up as you walk alongside it because it's like

00:55:13.250 --> 00:55:16.010
a green building and they disappear behind you.

00:55:16.909 --> 00:55:19.130
And there's no one there. I can go down to the

00:55:19.130 --> 00:55:22.150
gym at like two o 'clock in the morning at the

00:55:22.150 --> 00:55:25.690
CIA. And it's like not see a soul on the other

00:55:25.690 --> 00:55:26.889
side of the building and then go all the way

00:55:26.889 --> 00:55:31.730
back. And this kind of thing was my end because

00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:34.489
they were like, look, it's the night shift. Nothing

00:55:34.489 --> 00:55:37.389
that bad is going to happen. But it was on a

00:55:37.389 --> 00:55:41.869
very senior technical team that was basically

00:55:41.869 --> 00:55:44.309
handling systems administration for everybody

00:55:44.309 --> 00:55:48.110
in the Washington metropolitan area. So every

00:55:48.110 --> 00:55:53.989
basically CIA server. This is a computer system

00:55:53.989 --> 00:55:56.670
that data is stored on, the reporting is stored

00:55:56.670 --> 00:56:01.369
on, traffic is moved on, all of this stuff. Suddenly,

00:56:01.489 --> 00:56:11.250
me, this is circa 2005, I think, I'm in charge

00:56:11.250 --> 00:56:14.510
of. And it's just me and one other guy on the

00:56:14.510 --> 00:56:16.130
night shift. And if you're interested in the

00:56:16.130 --> 00:56:20.289
book, there's a lot of detail on this. But I

00:56:20.289 --> 00:56:22.230
get sort of scouted from this position because

00:56:22.230 --> 00:56:24.170
they realize I actually know a lot about technology.

00:56:24.369 --> 00:56:27.989
They were expecting me just to basically make

00:56:27.989 --> 00:56:29.869
sure the building doesn't burn down, all these

00:56:29.869 --> 00:56:33.690
systems don't go down overnight and then never

00:56:33.690 --> 00:56:37.769
come back up. But they go, well, are you willing

00:56:37.769 --> 00:56:41.809
to go overseas? And to a young man at that age,

00:56:41.889 --> 00:56:43.389
that's actually like, hey, that sounds kind of

00:56:43.389 --> 00:56:45.730
exciting. Who doesn't want to go work overseas

00:56:45.730 --> 00:56:50.539
for the CIA? And there's a lot of people listening

00:56:50.539 --> 00:56:55.559
to the podcast who are like, not me. I'm one

00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:56.659
of them. Because they're like, wait, the CIA

00:56:56.659 --> 00:56:58.780
is the bad guys, right? Yeah, exactly. They're

00:56:58.780 --> 00:57:00.099
like, what, are you going to go overthrow government

00:57:00.099 --> 00:57:02.679
somewhere? But you have to understand that I'm

00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:05.719
still very much a true believer. The government

00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:08.820
is like the living compressed embodiment of truth

00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:11.159
and goodness and light, you know, the shining

00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:14.099
city on the hill. So I want to do my part to

00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:18.139
spread that to the world. I didn't have skepticism

00:57:18.139 --> 00:57:21.320
is really what I'm trying to establish here.

00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:25.019
And so I sign up and I go through this special

00:57:25.019 --> 00:57:27.539
training school like people here in movies about

00:57:27.539 --> 00:57:30.699
The Farm, which is down at Camp Peary in Virginia.

00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:34.280
I'm sent to this actually much more secret facility

00:57:34.280 --> 00:57:38.780
called The Hill, which is in Warrant in Virginia.

00:57:39.699 --> 00:57:44.639
And this has been covered a few times in open

00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.789
source media. But I think this is one of the

00:57:47.789 --> 00:57:50.809
few book -length discussions of what happens

00:57:50.809 --> 00:57:56.630
there in permanent record. But, yeah, so I go

00:57:56.630 --> 00:57:58.710
through training, and then I get assigned overseas,

00:57:58.849 --> 00:58:00.750
and I end up in Geneva, Switzerland, undercover

00:58:00.750 --> 00:58:05.369
as a diplomat, right? I think my formal title

00:58:05.369 --> 00:58:07.989
for the embassy is something super bland, like

00:58:07.989 --> 00:58:12.239
diplomatic attaché. And what I am is I'm a forward

00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:14.039
-deployed tech guy. They send you through this

00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:17.400
school to make you into kind of a MacGyver, right?

00:58:17.980 --> 00:58:20.980
Yes, you can handle all the computers, but you

00:58:20.980 --> 00:58:24.719
can also handle the connections for the embassy's

00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:28.440
power systems, right? The actual electrical connections.

00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:32.719
Handle the HVAC systems, right? You can handle

00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:36.860
locks and alarms and security systems. Basically

00:58:36.860 --> 00:58:39.800
anything that's got an on button on it at the

00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:42.019
embassy that's secure, now you're responsible

00:58:42.019 --> 00:58:46.980
for. And I traveled from Geneva to other countries

00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:50.519
in Europe for sort of assignments. And it was

00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:53.519
like, it was an exciting time. I actually...

00:58:54.849 --> 00:58:57.510
Still enjoyed it, but this was where I first,

00:58:57.630 --> 00:59:00.989
working with intelligence, started to get doubts.

00:59:01.130 --> 00:59:03.530
And the story's been told many times, so I won't

00:59:03.530 --> 00:59:10.090
go over it in full detail here. But the CIA does

00:59:10.090 --> 00:59:12.730
primarily, and it's not the only thing they do,

00:59:12.869 --> 00:59:17.449
what's called human intelligence. Now, there

00:59:17.449 --> 00:59:20.070
are many different types of intelligence that

00:59:20.070 --> 00:59:22.190
the intelligence community is responsible for.

00:59:24.110 --> 00:59:27.730
The primary ones are human intelligence and signals

00:59:27.730 --> 00:59:30.030
intelligence. You want to think of signals intelligence,

00:59:30.150 --> 00:59:35.170
right, as tapping lines, hacking computers, all

00:59:35.170 --> 00:59:37.650
of these sort of things that provide electronic

00:59:37.650 --> 00:59:40.829
information, anything that's a digital or analog

00:59:40.829 --> 00:59:43.449
signal that can be intercepted and then turned

00:59:43.449 --> 00:59:46.730
into information. Human intelligence is all that

00:59:46.730 --> 00:59:50.150
fun stuff we've heard the CIA doing for decades

00:59:50.150 --> 00:59:52.630
and decades, which is where they try to turn

00:59:52.630 --> 00:59:55.159
people. Basically, they say, look, we'll give

00:59:55.159 --> 00:59:59.380
you money if you sell out your country. It's

00:59:59.380 --> 01:00:01.440
not even your country a lot of times. It's your

01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:04.099
organization. These guys could be working for

01:00:04.099 --> 01:00:06.639
a telecommunications provider, and they want

01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:08.639
to sell customer records, or they work at a bank,

01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:10.719
which was the thing that I saw, and we wanted

01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:13.039
records on the bank's customers, so we wanted

01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:17.300
a guy on the inside. But anyway, that's sort

01:00:17.300 --> 01:00:26.639
of how it works. the lowest stakes than was reasonable

01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:29.159
or responsible. They were totally willing to

01:00:29.159 --> 01:00:32.539
destroy somebody's life. Just on the off chance

01:00:32.539 --> 01:00:34.239
they would get some information that wouldn't

01:00:34.239 --> 01:00:38.239
even be tremendously valuable. And so, you know,

01:00:38.260 --> 01:00:43.079
ethically that struck me as a bit off, but I

01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:48.420
let it pass because what I've learned over my

01:00:48.420 --> 01:00:55.110
life, short though it's been, you know, It's

01:00:55.110 --> 01:00:57.110
that skepticism is something that needs to build

01:00:57.110 --> 01:00:59.690
up over time. It's a skill, something that needs

01:00:59.690 --> 01:01:02.769
to be practiced. Or you can think of it as something

01:01:02.769 --> 01:01:05.190
that you develop through exposure. Kind of like

01:01:05.190 --> 01:01:09.170
radiation poisoning, but in a positive way. It's

01:01:09.170 --> 01:01:14.050
when you start to realize inconsistencies or

01:01:14.050 --> 01:01:20.739
hypocrisies or lies. And you notice them, and

01:01:20.739 --> 01:01:23.460
you give somebody the benefit of the doubt, or

01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:25.340
you trust them, or you think it's all right.

01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:28.460
But then over time, you see it's not an isolated

01:01:28.460 --> 01:01:31.179
instance. It's a pattern behavior. And over time,

01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:35.039
that exposure to inconsistency builds and builds

01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:36.559
and builds until it's something that you can

01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:41.019
no longer ignore. Now, after the CIA, I went

01:01:41.019 --> 01:01:44.579
to the NSA in Japan, where I was working there

01:01:44.579 --> 01:01:47.989
in Tokyo. And then from there, a couple years

01:01:47.989 --> 01:01:53.449
later, I went to the CIA again. Now I was working

01:01:53.449 --> 01:01:55.969
as private employee for Dell, but I was the senior

01:01:55.969 --> 01:01:59.269
technical official on Dell's sales account to

01:01:59.269 --> 01:02:01.269
the CIA. You know, people, these big companies,

01:02:01.369 --> 01:02:04.039
they have sales accounts to the CIA. And so this

01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:06.579
means I'm going in, and now it's crazy because

01:02:06.579 --> 01:02:09.000
I'm still a very young man, but I'm sitting across

01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:12.179
the table from chiefs of these enormous CIA divisions.

01:02:12.340 --> 01:02:14.260
I'm sitting across from their chief technology

01:02:14.260 --> 01:02:19.360
officer for the entire agency, or the chief information

01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:23.900
officer for the entire CIA. And these guys are

01:02:23.900 --> 01:02:25.420
going, look, here's our problems, here's what

01:02:25.420 --> 01:02:28.329
we want to do, and it's my job. To pitch them

01:02:28.329 --> 01:02:30.789
a system, right, and I'm paired up with this

01:02:30.789 --> 01:02:33.289
sales guy, and the whole thing is just go, how

01:02:33.289 --> 01:02:35.469
much money can we get out of the government,

01:02:35.769 --> 01:02:38.170
right? That's the whole goal, and we'll build

01:02:38.170 --> 01:02:40.449
them what we were pitching was a private cloud

01:02:40.449 --> 01:02:43.590
system, right? Everybody knows about cloud computing

01:02:43.590 --> 01:02:45.889
now. It's like why your Gmail account is available

01:02:45.889 --> 01:02:49.210
wherever you go. It's why Facebook has this massive

01:02:49.210 --> 01:02:52.429
system of records for everyone everywhere. The

01:02:52.429 --> 01:02:54.230
government wanted to have these kind of capabilities

01:02:54.230 --> 01:02:57.230
too. Dell ended up getting beat out. by Amazon.

01:02:57.530 --> 01:02:59.730
People, you know, some people aren't familiar

01:02:59.730 --> 01:03:02.050
with this. Many of them are. But Amazon runs

01:03:02.050 --> 01:03:07.570
a secret cloud system for the government. I forget

01:03:07.570 --> 01:03:10.530
what they've rebranded it now. But this is just,

01:03:10.610 --> 01:03:13.789
there's this massive connection. between industry

01:03:13.789 --> 01:03:15.929
and government in the classified space that just

01:03:15.929 --> 01:03:17.610
goes deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.

01:03:17.989 --> 01:03:22.730
But at this point, I was already, I had misgivings

01:03:22.730 --> 01:03:25.989
because of what I'd seen in Japan about government,

01:03:26.070 --> 01:03:30.329
but I was just trying to get by. I was trying

01:03:30.329 --> 01:03:33.510
to ignore the conflicts. I was trying to ignore

01:03:33.510 --> 01:03:37.369
the inconsistencies. And I think this is a state

01:03:37.369 --> 01:03:41.110
that a lot of people In these large institutions,

01:03:41.610 --> 01:03:44.250
not just in our country, but around the world,

01:03:44.409 --> 01:03:46.809
I struggle with every day. They've got a job.

01:03:46.809 --> 01:03:49.250
They've got a family. They've got bills. They're

01:03:49.250 --> 01:03:52.610
just trying to get by. And they know that some

01:03:52.610 --> 01:03:54.789
of the things they're doing are not good things.

01:03:54.869 --> 01:03:56.530
They know some of the things they're doing are

01:03:56.530 --> 01:04:00.469
actively wrong. But they know what happens to

01:04:00.469 --> 01:04:08.190
people who rock the boat. Eventually, I changed

01:04:08.190 --> 01:04:13.949
my mind. And when I had gone to Hawaii, which

01:04:13.949 --> 01:04:16.750
was the final position in my career with the

01:04:16.750 --> 01:04:24.590
intelligence community, I was, because of an

01:04:24.590 --> 01:04:26.909
accident of history here, I wasn't supposed to

01:04:26.909 --> 01:04:29.650
be in this position at all. I was supposed to

01:04:29.650 --> 01:04:33.190
be at a group called the National Threat Operations

01:04:33.190 --> 01:04:37.710
Center, NTAC. Because of the way contracting

01:04:37.710 --> 01:04:40.530
works, and again, this is covered in the book,

01:04:40.690 --> 01:04:47.090
I end up being reassigned to this little rinky

01:04:47.090 --> 01:04:50.510
-dink office that nobody's ever heard of in Hawaii

01:04:50.510 --> 01:04:54.849
called the Office of Information Sharing. And

01:04:54.849 --> 01:04:57.909
I'm replacing this old -timer who's about to

01:04:57.909 --> 01:05:01.190
retire. Really, really nice guy. But he spent

01:05:01.190 --> 01:05:03.849
most of his days just reading novels and doing

01:05:03.849 --> 01:05:06.949
nothing. and letting people be content to the

01:05:06.949 --> 01:05:09.409
fact or letting people forget that his office

01:05:09.409 --> 01:05:13.150
existed because he was the only one in it. There's

01:05:13.150 --> 01:05:15.710
a manager who's like over him, but it's actually

01:05:15.710 --> 01:05:17.969
over a larger group and he just looks over him

01:05:17.969 --> 01:05:21.510
as sort of a favor. So now I come in and now

01:05:21.510 --> 01:05:23.869
I'm the sole employee of the Office of Information

01:05:23.869 --> 01:05:26.070
Sharing, but I'm not close enough to retirement

01:05:26.070 --> 01:05:30.289
that I'm okay with just doing nothing at all.

01:05:30.869 --> 01:05:34.190
So I get ambitious. And I come up with this idea

01:05:34.190 --> 01:05:37.909
for a new system called the heartbeat. And what

01:05:37.909 --> 01:05:44.369
the heartbeat is going to do is connect to basically

01:05:44.369 --> 01:05:48.190
every information repository in the intelligence

01:05:48.190 --> 01:05:51.559
community, both at the NSA. And across network

01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:53.960
boundaries, which you normally can't cross, but

01:05:53.960 --> 01:05:56.340
because I'd worked at both the CIA and the NSA,

01:05:56.539 --> 01:05:59.360
I knew the network well enough, both sides of

01:05:59.360 --> 01:06:01.519
it, sides that normal workers at the NSA would

01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:03.260
never have seen because you have to be in one

01:06:03.260 --> 01:06:05.340
or the other. I could actually connect these

01:06:05.340 --> 01:06:07.940
together. I could build bridges across this kind

01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:13.980
of network space. And then draw all of these

01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:18.920
records into a new kind of system. that was supposed

01:06:18.920 --> 01:06:24.500
to look at your digital ID, basically your sort

01:06:24.500 --> 01:06:27.579
of ID card that says, this is who I am. I work

01:06:27.579 --> 01:06:30.800
for this agency. I work in this office. These

01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:34.139
are my assignments. These are my group affiliations.

01:06:34.139 --> 01:06:36.940
And because of that, the system would be able

01:06:36.940 --> 01:06:40.739
to eventually aggregate records that were relevant

01:06:40.739 --> 01:06:43.730
to your job. that were related to you, and then

01:06:43.730 --> 01:06:45.230
it could provide them. And basically, you could

01:06:45.230 --> 01:06:47.650
hit this site. It would be an update of what

01:06:47.650 --> 01:06:50.489
we used to call read boards, which were manually

01:06:50.489 --> 01:06:56.989
created. Then we go, look, you work in network

01:06:56.989 --> 01:06:58.550
defense, right? These are all the things that

01:06:58.550 --> 01:07:00.650
are happening on network defense. You work on,

01:07:00.750 --> 01:07:03.630
I don't know, economic takeovers in Guatemala.

01:07:03.909 --> 01:07:06.670
You know, this is what's going on for you there.

01:07:08.489 --> 01:07:12.719
But in my off time, I helped the team that sat

01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:14.539
next to me, which was a systems administration

01:07:14.539 --> 01:07:17.400
team for Windows Networks, because I had been

01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:20.380
a Microsoft -certified systems engineer, which

01:07:20.380 --> 01:07:23.000
means basically I knew how to take care of Windows

01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.019
Networks. And this was all those guys did, and

01:07:27.019 --> 01:07:29.760
they always had way too much work, way too much

01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:32.760
work, and I had basically no work that I needed

01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:37.199
to do at all. because all I was supposed to do

01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:40.300
was share information, which was not something

01:07:40.300 --> 01:07:45.579
that was particularly in demand, because most

01:07:45.579 --> 01:07:47.280
people already knew what they wanted or what

01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:49.500
they needed. So it was basically my job was to

01:07:49.500 --> 01:07:51.880
sit there and collect a paycheck, unless I wanted

01:07:51.880 --> 01:07:55.739
to get ambitious. And so I did some side gigs

01:07:55.739 --> 01:07:57.880
for these other guys, and one of them was running

01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:03.960
what were called dirty word searches. Dirty word

01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:08.280
searches are... Let me dial this back because

01:08:08.280 --> 01:08:12.800
I know we're sort of... This is hard to track.

01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:19.920
Everything that the NSA does, in large part,

01:08:20.100 --> 01:08:24.060
is classified. Everything the CIA does, in large

01:08:24.060 --> 01:08:29.979
part, is classified. If I made lunch plans with

01:08:29.979 --> 01:08:32.420
other people in my office, it was classified.

01:08:33.039 --> 01:08:36.220
That was the policy. It's dumb. This over -classification

01:08:36.220 --> 01:08:39.699
problem is one of the central flaws in government

01:08:39.699 --> 01:08:41.500
right now. This is the reason we don't understand

01:08:41.500 --> 01:08:42.859
what they're doing. This is why they can get

01:08:42.859 --> 01:08:47.760
away with breaking the law or violating our rights

01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:50.579
for so long, you know, 5 years, 10 years, 15,

01:08:50.699 --> 01:08:54.840
50 years, before we see what they were doing.

01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:57.340
And it's because of this routine classification,

01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:02.920
right? But every system... computer system has

01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:06.619
a limit on what level of classified information

01:09:06.619 --> 01:09:09.399
is supposed to be stored on it. And we've got

01:09:09.399 --> 01:09:12.039
all these complicated systems for code words

01:09:12.039 --> 01:09:17.579
and caveats that establish a system of what's

01:09:17.579 --> 01:09:19.779
called compartmentation. And this is the idea

01:09:19.779 --> 01:09:21.479
when you work at the CIA, when you work at the

01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:24.460
NSA, you're not supposed to know what's happening

01:09:24.460 --> 01:09:28.329
in the office next to you, right? because you

01:09:28.329 --> 01:09:30.489
don't have need to know, right? Again, that thing

01:09:30.489 --> 01:09:35.609
from the movies. And the reason they have this

01:09:35.609 --> 01:09:37.229
is they don't want one person to be able to go

01:09:37.229 --> 01:09:39.770
and know everything, right, and tell everybody

01:09:39.770 --> 01:09:42.850
everything. They don't want anybody to know too

01:09:42.850 --> 01:09:44.770
much, particularly when they're doing lots of

01:09:44.770 --> 01:09:47.470
bad things, because then there's the risk that

01:09:47.470 --> 01:09:49.489
you realize they're doing so many bad things

01:09:49.489 --> 01:09:52.449
that it's past the point that we can justify,

01:09:52.750 --> 01:09:54.949
and they might develop sort of an ideological

01:09:54.949 --> 01:10:00.159
objection to that. Well in the office of information

01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:03.500
sharing and actually in basically every part

01:10:03.500 --> 01:10:06.300
of my career before that I had access to everything

01:10:08.750 --> 01:10:12.909
I had what was called a special caveat on my

01:10:12.909 --> 01:10:15.869
accesses called privac, which means privileged

01:10:15.869 --> 01:10:18.890
access. What this means is you're a kind of super

01:10:18.890 --> 01:10:21.909
user. Most people have all of these controls

01:10:21.909 --> 01:10:23.649
and the kind of information they can access,

01:10:23.850 --> 01:10:26.510
but I'm in charge of the system. People who need

01:10:26.510 --> 01:10:28.590
information, they have to get it from somewhere.

01:10:28.689 --> 01:10:31.890
Even the director of the CIA, he says, I need

01:10:31.890 --> 01:10:34.109
to know everything about this. Well, he doesn't

01:10:34.109 --> 01:10:35.970
know where to get it. He's just a manager. Somebody

01:10:35.970 --> 01:10:38.850
has to be able to actually cross these thresholds

01:10:38.850 --> 01:10:42.229
and get those things. That guy was me. And so

01:10:42.229 --> 01:10:45.449
dirty word searches were these kind of automated

01:10:45.449 --> 01:10:48.449
queries that I would set up to go across the

01:10:48.449 --> 01:10:51.310
whole network and look at all of the different

01:10:51.310 --> 01:10:53.970
levels of classification and compartmentation

01:10:53.970 --> 01:10:56.670
and exceptionally controlled information. That's

01:10:56.670 --> 01:10:58.649
kind of, you can think of it as above top secret.

01:10:59.430 --> 01:11:01.750
In these special compartments, right, where you're

01:11:01.750 --> 01:11:03.550
not even supposed to know what these compartments

01:11:03.550 --> 01:11:07.689
are for. You only know the code word unless you

01:11:07.689 --> 01:11:09.510
work in them, unless you have access to them,

01:11:09.550 --> 01:11:12.869
unless you read into them. One day I got a hit

01:11:12.869 --> 01:11:16.970
on the Dirty Word Search for a program that I'd

01:11:16.970 --> 01:11:21.029
never heard of called Stellar Wind. It came back

01:11:21.029 --> 01:11:28.229
because the little... caveat for it. They're

01:11:28.229 --> 01:11:30.609
called handling caveats, which is like, you know,

01:11:30.609 --> 01:11:32.470
you can think of like burn after reading or for

01:11:32.470 --> 01:11:36.010
your eyes only. But this one's called STLW, which

01:11:36.010 --> 01:11:37.590
means stellar wind. And unless you know what

01:11:37.590 --> 01:11:39.069
stellar wind is, you don't know how to handle

01:11:39.069 --> 01:11:41.029
it. All I knew was it wasn't supposed to be on

01:11:41.029 --> 01:11:43.409
my system. And this is a little bit unusual.

01:11:44.289 --> 01:11:47.409
And it turned out this document was placed on

01:11:47.409 --> 01:11:49.970
the system because one of the employees who had

01:11:49.970 --> 01:11:52.810
worked on this program years before had come

01:11:52.810 --> 01:11:56.310
to Hawaii. And this person was a lawyer. I believe.

01:11:56.909 --> 01:11:59.010
And they had worked in the Inspector General's

01:11:59.010 --> 01:12:02.050
office, and they had compiled a report, part

01:12:02.050 --> 01:12:04.810
of the Inspector General's report, which is when

01:12:04.810 --> 01:12:09.609
the government is investigating itself, into

01:12:09.609 --> 01:12:13.829
the operations and activities of this program.

01:12:14.250 --> 01:12:16.449
Well, this was the domestic mass surveillance

01:12:16.449 --> 01:12:19.409
program that I talked about in the very beginning

01:12:19.409 --> 01:12:21.590
of our conversation that started under the Bush

01:12:21.590 --> 01:12:25.680
White House. Stellar Wind was no longer supposed

01:12:25.680 --> 01:12:30.260
to be really in operation. It had been unveiled

01:12:30.260 --> 01:12:34.180
in a big scandal in December 2005 in the New

01:12:34.180 --> 01:12:39.500
York Times by journalist James Risen. And I'm

01:12:39.500 --> 01:12:40.840
not going to name him because I don't want to

01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:43.060
get it wrong. Another journalist, you can look

01:12:43.060 --> 01:12:45.260
at the byline if you want to see their involvement.

01:12:46.239 --> 01:12:51.640
But there's a lot of history here, too. What

01:12:51.640 --> 01:12:55.399
they had found was, of course, the Bush White

01:12:55.399 --> 01:12:57.960
House had constructed a warrantless wiretapping

01:12:57.960 --> 01:12:59.619
program, if you remember the warrantless wiretapping

01:12:59.619 --> 01:13:01.960
scandal, that was affecting everyone in the United

01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:09.340
States. Well, the Bush White House was really

01:13:09.340 --> 01:13:12.539
put in a difficult position by this scandal.

01:13:12.979 --> 01:13:16.199
They would have lost the election over this scandal

01:13:16.199 --> 01:13:19.159
because the New York Times actually had this

01:13:19.159 --> 01:13:23.390
story. In October 2004, which was the election

01:13:23.390 --> 01:13:28.289
year, they were ready to go with it. But at the

01:13:28.289 --> 01:13:31.390
specific request of the White House, talking

01:13:31.390 --> 01:13:34.670
to the publisher of the New York Times, Sulzberger

01:13:34.670 --> 01:13:37.109
and Bill Keller, then the executive editor of

01:13:37.109 --> 01:13:40.550
the New York Times, the New York Times said,

01:13:40.649 --> 01:13:44.960
we won't run the story. because the president

01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:47.920
just said, if you run this story a month before

01:13:47.920 --> 01:13:50.239
the election, that's a very tight margin if you

01:13:50.239 --> 01:13:53.899
recall, you'll have blood on your hands. And

01:13:53.899 --> 01:13:57.180
it was so close to 2001, the New York Times just

01:13:57.180 --> 01:14:00.100
went, you know what, fine. Americans don't need

01:14:00.100 --> 01:14:02.760
to know that the Constitution is being violated.

01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:07.119
They don't need to know that the Fourth Amendment

01:14:07.119 --> 01:14:10.899
doesn't mean what they think it means. If the

01:14:10.899 --> 01:14:12.779
government says it's all right and it's a secret

01:14:12.779 --> 01:14:13.979
and you shouldn't know about it, that's fine.

01:14:15.119 --> 01:14:18.260
Now, December 2005, why did that change? Why

01:14:18.260 --> 01:14:20.079
did the New York Times suddenly run this story?

01:14:20.460 --> 01:14:23.539
Well, it's because James Risen, the reporter

01:14:23.539 --> 01:14:27.029
who found this story, had written a book. And

01:14:27.029 --> 01:14:28.930
he was about to publish this book. And the New

01:14:28.930 --> 01:14:30.890
York Times was about to be in a very uncomfortable

01:14:30.890 --> 01:14:34.270
position of having to explain why they didn't

01:14:34.270 --> 01:14:37.789
run this story and how they got scooped by their

01:14:37.789 --> 01:14:40.010
own journalists. And so they finally did it,

01:14:40.029 --> 01:14:41.609
but it was too late. Bush had been reelected.

01:14:41.609 --> 01:14:44.409
And now it was sweeping up the broken glass of

01:14:44.409 --> 01:14:49.449
our lost rights. So Congress, the Bush White

01:14:49.449 --> 01:14:51.609
House was very effective in, as I said before,

01:14:51.789 --> 01:14:54.449
telling a very few select members of Congress.

01:14:55.020 --> 01:14:57.520
that this program existed. And they told them

01:14:57.520 --> 01:14:59.899
this program existed in ways that they wouldn't

01:14:59.899 --> 01:15:04.260
object to, but made them culpable for hiding

01:15:04.260 --> 01:15:07.539
the existence of the program from the American

01:15:07.539 --> 01:15:09.819
people. And this is why someone like Nancy Pelosi,

01:15:10.180 --> 01:15:12.640
who you wouldn't exactly think would be buddy

01:15:12.640 --> 01:15:15.020
-buddy with George Bush, was completely okay

01:15:15.020 --> 01:15:17.720
in defending this kind of program, in fact. And

01:15:17.720 --> 01:15:19.899
later she said, oh, well, she had objections

01:15:19.899 --> 01:15:22.260
to the program that she wrote in a letter to

01:15:22.260 --> 01:15:24.149
the White House. But she never showed us the

01:15:24.149 --> 01:15:25.989
letter. She went, oh, well, that was classified,

01:15:26.489 --> 01:15:30.350
right? And this is not to bag on her individually.

01:15:30.449 --> 01:15:33.489
It's just she's a great example in here, a named

01:15:33.489 --> 01:15:36.310
example everyone knows, of how this process works.

01:15:36.489 --> 01:15:40.710
The White House will implicate certain very powerful

01:15:40.710 --> 01:15:43.050
members of Congress in their own criminal activity.

01:15:43.329 --> 01:15:46.250
And so then when the White House gets in trouble

01:15:46.250 --> 01:15:49.090
for it, the Congress has to run cover for the

01:15:49.090 --> 01:15:52.760
White House. And so what happened? was Congress

01:15:52.760 --> 01:15:58.680
passed an emergency law in 2007 called the Protect

01:15:58.680 --> 01:16:02.140
America Act, which should have been our first

01:16:02.140 --> 01:16:05.000
indication this is a very bad thing, because

01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:06.880
they never name a law something like that unless

01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:10.899
it's something terrible. And what it did was

01:16:10.899 --> 01:16:14.920
it retroactively immunized all of the phone companies

01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:18.220
in the United States that had been breaking the

01:16:18.220 --> 01:16:23.289
law millions of times a day. by handing your

01:16:23.289 --> 01:16:26.289
records over to the government, which they weren't

01:16:26.289 --> 01:16:28.869
allowed to do, simply on the basis of a letter

01:16:28.869 --> 01:16:32.770
from the president saying, please do this. And

01:16:32.770 --> 01:16:35.090
these companies went, look, now that we've been

01:16:35.090 --> 01:16:37.170
uncovered, now that we've been shown that we're

01:16:37.170 --> 01:16:41.170
breaking, or now that these journalists have

01:16:41.170 --> 01:16:44.149
shown that we've broken the law and violated

01:16:44.149 --> 01:16:47.109
the rights of Americans on a staggering scale

01:16:47.109 --> 01:16:49.710
that could bankrupt our companies because we

01:16:49.710 --> 01:16:53.079
can be sued for this. We will no longer cooperate

01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:56.600
with you unless you pass a law that says people

01:16:56.600 --> 01:16:59.060
can't sue us for having done this. And so we

01:16:59.060 --> 01:17:01.399
get the Protect America Act, which they say is

01:17:01.399 --> 01:17:04.960
an emergency. This is all public history, too.

01:17:05.079 --> 01:17:07.279
You can look this up on Wikipedia, you know.

01:17:08.819 --> 01:17:14.720
And so then they. They go, it's an emergency

01:17:14.720 --> 01:17:17.319
law. We have to pass this now. We have to keep

01:17:17.319 --> 01:17:19.680
this program active. Bush is going to end the

01:17:19.680 --> 01:17:22.000
warrantless wiretapping program and continue

01:17:22.000 --> 01:17:23.939
it under this new authority where it's going

01:17:23.939 --> 01:17:26.539
to have some special level of oversight and these

01:17:26.539 --> 01:17:29.720
kind of things eventually. But for now, we just

01:17:29.720 --> 01:17:32.000
have to make sure people are safe. Again, they

01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:34.260
go to fear. They say, if we don't have this program,

01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:37.659
terrorist attacks will continue. People will

01:17:37.659 --> 01:17:39.920
die. Blood on your hands, blood on your hands,

01:17:39.939 --> 01:17:43.659
blood on your hands. Think of the children. Protect

01:17:43.659 --> 01:17:47.119
America Act passes. The companies get off the

01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:48.819
hook. The Bush White House gets off the hook.

01:17:48.859 --> 01:17:52.100
The Congress that was then sharing in criminal

01:17:52.100 --> 01:17:55.659
culpability for authorizing, or rather letting

01:17:55.659 --> 01:17:58.819
these things go by without stopping them, then

01:17:58.819 --> 01:18:03.340
passes in 2008 the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance

01:18:03.340 --> 01:18:09.100
Act Amendments of 2008. This is called the FAA,

01:18:09.319 --> 01:18:13.609
FISA Amendments Act of 2008. And rather than

01:18:13.609 --> 01:18:19.789
stopping all of the unlawful and sort of unconstitutional

01:18:19.789 --> 01:18:21.909
activities that the intelligence agency was doing,

01:18:22.050 --> 01:18:27.489
they continued it in different ways simply by

01:18:27.489 --> 01:18:30.329
creating a few legal hoops for them to jump through.

01:18:31.069 --> 01:18:33.510
Now, this is not to say, you know, these things

01:18:33.510 --> 01:18:35.329
aren't helpful at all. It's not to say they're

01:18:35.329 --> 01:18:38.310
not useful at all. But it's important to understand.

01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:41.720
When the government's response to any scandal,

01:18:41.859 --> 01:18:46.359
and this applies to any country, is not to make

01:18:46.359 --> 01:18:49.199
the activities of the person who is caught breaking

01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:53.000
the law comply with the law, but instead make

01:18:53.000 --> 01:18:54.720
the activities of the person who is breaking

01:18:54.720 --> 01:18:59.239
the law legal, right? They make the law comply

01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:01.939
with what the agencies want to do rather than

01:19:01.939 --> 01:19:05.319
make the agencies comply with the law. That's

01:19:05.319 --> 01:19:08.760
a problem, and that's what happened here. Now,

01:19:08.760 --> 01:19:10.779
the intelligence community's powers actually

01:19:10.779 --> 01:19:15.340
grew in response to this scandal in 2008 because

01:19:15.340 --> 01:19:17.020
Congress was on the hook and they just wanted

01:19:17.020 --> 01:19:19.859
to move on and get this over with. There were

01:19:19.859 --> 01:19:21.739
objections. There were people who knew this was

01:19:21.739 --> 01:19:24.939
a bad idea, but it passed on. Now, what the public

01:19:24.939 --> 01:19:26.460
took away from this, because a part of these

01:19:26.460 --> 01:19:31.140
laws, was a requirement that the inspector general

01:19:32.259 --> 01:19:34.560
of all of these different intelligence community

01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:36.760
elements and the Director of National Intelligence

01:19:36.760 --> 01:19:42.739
submit a report saying, this is what happened

01:19:42.739 --> 01:19:46.520
under that warrantless wiretapping program. This

01:19:46.520 --> 01:19:48.460
is how it complied with the law or how it didn't

01:19:48.460 --> 01:19:52.180
comply with the law. And basically look back

01:19:52.180 --> 01:19:56.479
at how this program was constituted, what it

01:19:56.479 --> 01:20:00.279
did, what the impacts and effects were. And that

01:20:00.279 --> 01:20:03.060
was supposed to be sort of the Truth and Reconciliation

01:20:03.060 --> 01:20:08.279
Council, right? Now, why am I talking about all

01:20:08.279 --> 01:20:10.359
this ancient history? Well, I'm sitting here

01:20:10.359 --> 01:20:14.880
in 2012 with a classified inspector general's

01:20:14.880 --> 01:20:18.560
report, draft report from the NSA that names

01:20:18.560 --> 01:20:22.659
names that says Dick Cheney, that says David

01:20:22.659 --> 01:20:24.520
Addington, that says Nancy Pelosi, that says

01:20:24.520 --> 01:20:25.960
all these people who are involved in the program,

01:20:26.079 --> 01:20:29.649
the TikTok of how it happens. It says, the director

01:20:29.649 --> 01:20:31.789
of the NSA, that guy who was evacuating the building

01:20:31.789 --> 01:20:37.970
at the beginning of our podcast here, that guy

01:20:37.970 --> 01:20:40.810
was asked by the President of the United States

01:20:40.810 --> 01:20:44.329
if he would continue this program after being

01:20:44.329 --> 01:20:47.409
told by the White House and the Department of

01:20:47.409 --> 01:20:50.149
Justice that these programs were not lawful,

01:20:50.170 --> 01:20:52.909
that they were not constitutional. And the President

01:20:52.909 --> 01:20:58.079
said, would you continue this program? On my

01:20:58.079 --> 01:21:01.579
say -so alone, knowing that it's risky, knowing

01:21:01.579 --> 01:21:04.279
that it's unlawful, and he said, yes, sir, I

01:21:04.279 --> 01:21:06.279
will, if you think that's what's necessary to

01:21:06.279 --> 01:21:09.500
keep the country safe. And at that moment, I

01:21:09.500 --> 01:21:13.180
realized, these guys don't care about the law.

01:21:13.260 --> 01:21:14.560
These guys don't care about the Constitution.

01:21:14.760 --> 01:21:16.359
These guys don't care about the American people.

01:21:16.840 --> 01:21:18.560
They care about the continuity of government.

01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:20.659
They care about the state, right? And this is

01:21:20.659 --> 01:21:23.420
something that people have lost. We hear this

01:21:23.420 --> 01:21:25.260
phrase over and over again, national security,

01:21:25.479 --> 01:21:27.439
national security, national security, and we're

01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:30.560
meant to interpret that to mean public safety.

01:21:31.560 --> 01:21:33.579
But national security is a very different thing

01:21:33.579 --> 01:21:35.659
from public safety. National security is a thing

01:21:35.659 --> 01:21:37.979
that in previous generations we referred to as

01:21:37.979 --> 01:21:41.300
state security. National security was a kind

01:21:41.300 --> 01:21:43.680
of term that came out of the Bush administration

01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:48.640
to run cover for the fact that we were elevating

01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:50.880
a new kind of secret police across the country.

01:21:54.220 --> 01:21:58.539
And what does it mean when, again, in a democracy,

01:21:58.720 --> 01:22:02.119
in the United States, the public is not partner

01:22:02.119 --> 01:22:04.899
to government? The public does not hold the leash

01:22:04.899 --> 01:22:07.560
of government anymore, but we are subject to

01:22:07.560 --> 01:22:09.819
government, right? We are subordinate to government.

01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:13.479
And we're not even allowed to know that it happened.

01:22:13.960 --> 01:22:19.039
Now, in the book, I tell the fact that I had

01:22:19.039 --> 01:22:21.699
access to the unclassified version of this report

01:22:21.699 --> 01:22:25.869
back in Japan. And what's interesting is the

01:22:25.869 --> 01:22:27.909
unclassified version of a report, and we've all

01:22:27.909 --> 01:22:29.369
seen this today with things like the Mueller

01:22:29.369 --> 01:22:32.050
report and all of the intelligence reporting

01:22:32.050 --> 01:22:33.409
that's happened over the last several years.

01:22:33.609 --> 01:22:36.930
When the government provides a classified report

01:22:36.930 --> 01:22:39.449
to the public, it's normally the same document.

01:22:39.510 --> 01:22:41.750
The unclassified version and the classified version

01:22:41.750 --> 01:22:43.970
are the same thing. It's just the unclassified

01:22:43.970 --> 01:22:46.909
version has things blacked out or redacted that

01:22:46.909 --> 01:22:48.229
they say, oh, you're not allowed to know this

01:22:48.229 --> 01:22:50.189
sentence or this paragraph or this page or whatever.

01:22:53.550 --> 01:22:57.109
had been given about the warrantless wiretapping

01:22:57.109 --> 01:23:01.689
program was a completely different document.

01:23:02.010 --> 01:23:05.829
It was a document tailor -made to deceive and

01:23:05.829 --> 01:23:10.250
mislead the Congress and the public of the United

01:23:10.250 --> 01:23:13.090
States. And it was effective in doing that. And

01:23:13.090 --> 01:23:19.590
in 2012, what I realized was this is what real

01:23:19.590 --> 01:23:24.029
-world conspiracies look like, right? It doesn't

01:23:24.029 --> 01:23:28.390
have to be smoking men behind closed doors, right?

01:23:29.010 --> 01:23:32.850
It's lawyers and politicians. It's ordinary people

01:23:32.850 --> 01:23:35.170
from the working level to the management level

01:23:35.170 --> 01:23:40.750
who go, if we don't explain this in a certain

01:23:40.750 --> 01:23:46.770
way, we're all going to lose our jobs. Or the

01:23:46.770 --> 01:23:48.590
other way, they go, we're going to get something

01:23:48.590 --> 01:23:52.369
out of this if we all work together. So civilization

01:23:52.369 --> 01:23:55.189
is the history of conspiracy, right? What is

01:23:55.189 --> 01:23:57.869
civilization but a conspiracy for all of us to

01:23:57.869 --> 01:24:01.930
do better by working together, right? But it's

01:24:01.930 --> 01:24:05.930
this kind of thing that I think too often we

01:24:05.930 --> 01:24:08.869
forget because it's boring as hell. I want all

01:24:08.869 --> 01:24:11.130
your listeners, right, to go to the Washington

01:24:11.130 --> 01:24:12.930
Post because this document that I discovered

01:24:12.930 --> 01:24:16.430
that really changed me has been published courtesy

01:24:16.430 --> 01:24:19.189
of the Washington Post. It's called the Inspector

01:24:19.189 --> 01:24:22.770
General's Report on Stellar Wind. And you can

01:24:22.770 --> 01:24:24.750
look at the actual document that I saw that was

01:24:24.750 --> 01:24:28.529
unredacted. I had no blacked out pages on mine.

01:24:29.689 --> 01:24:35.489
And what I believe it shows is that some of the

01:24:35.489 --> 01:24:38.069
most senior officials in the United States, elected

01:24:38.069 --> 01:24:44.489
and unelected, worked together to actively undermine

01:24:44.489 --> 01:24:48.289
the rights of the American people to give themselves

01:24:48.289 --> 01:24:54.590
expanded powers. Now, in their defense, they

01:24:54.590 --> 01:24:56.989
said they were seeking these powers for a good

01:24:56.989 --> 01:24:59.090
and just and noble cause, right? They say they

01:24:59.090 --> 01:25:02.170
were trying to keep us safe. But that's what

01:25:02.170 --> 01:25:03.909
they always say. That's what every government

01:25:03.909 --> 01:25:05.970
says. That's no different than what the Chinese

01:25:05.970 --> 01:25:07.750
government says or the Russian government says.

01:25:10.090 --> 01:25:13.329
And the question is, if they are truly keeping

01:25:13.329 --> 01:25:17.189
us safe, why wouldn't they simply just tell us

01:25:17.189 --> 01:25:20.289
that? Why wouldn't they have that debate in Congress?

01:25:20.859 --> 01:25:23.500
Why wouldn't they put that to a vote? Because

01:25:23.500 --> 01:25:25.340
if they were, and they could convince us that

01:25:25.340 --> 01:25:31.180
they were, they'd win the vote. And particularly,

01:25:31.220 --> 01:25:33.619
we all know, like the Patriot Act passed, one

01:25:33.619 --> 01:25:35.340
of the worst pieces of legislation in modern

01:25:35.340 --> 01:25:42.659
history passed. Why didn't we get a vote? And

01:25:42.659 --> 01:25:44.399
I think if you read the report, the answer will

01:25:44.399 --> 01:25:46.420
be clear. So I'm sorry, Joe, I went on for a

01:25:46.420 --> 01:25:48.640
very long time. No, it was amazing. Don't apologize

01:25:48.640 --> 01:25:51.949
at all. It's just, completely fascinating that

01:25:51.949 --> 01:25:55.529
the continuation of this policy came down to

01:25:55.529 --> 01:25:57.810
one man and the president having this discussion

01:25:57.810 --> 01:26:03.770
that is so well it it's it's much it's much more

01:26:03.770 --> 01:26:06.710
much more but right right literally the president

01:26:06.710 --> 01:26:10.229
at the heart of it yes at the heart of it in

01:26:10.229 --> 01:26:14.069
every expression of executive power right and

01:26:14.069 --> 01:26:16.869
by executive we mean the white house here the

01:26:16.869 --> 01:26:21.819
cia The NSA, the FBI, the DOJ, right? These guys

01:26:21.819 --> 01:26:25.579
exist as a part of the executive branch of government.

01:26:26.079 --> 01:26:29.000
In a real way, they work for the White House.

01:26:29.399 --> 01:26:31.619
Now, there are laws and regulations and policies

01:26:31.619 --> 01:26:33.119
that are supposed to say they're supposed to

01:26:33.119 --> 01:26:34.520
do this, and they're supposed to say they're

01:26:34.520 --> 01:26:37.260
not supposed to do that. But when you look at

01:26:37.260 --> 01:26:39.000
federal regulations, when you look at policies

01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:42.020
as an employee of government, when you violate

01:26:42.020 --> 01:26:45.100
these policies, the worst thing that happens

01:26:45.100 --> 01:26:47.909
to you is you lose your job. Because there's

01:26:47.909 --> 01:26:50.890
no criminal penalty for the violation of these

01:26:50.890 --> 01:26:57.250
laws. And so it's very easy for people who exist

01:26:57.250 --> 01:27:00.010
in these structures, particularly the very top

01:27:00.010 --> 01:27:02.430
levels of these structures, to go, look, we have

01:27:02.430 --> 01:27:05.970
a given set of lawful authorities. And these

01:27:05.970 --> 01:27:10.529
are defined very broadly to give us leeway to

01:27:10.529 --> 01:27:12.649
do whatever it is we think is proper and appropriate

01:27:12.649 --> 01:27:17.189
and just. Take that proper, inappropriate, and

01:27:17.189 --> 01:27:20.710
just from the perspective of any given individual,

01:27:20.970 --> 01:27:24.789
right, any given president. Now, intersect that

01:27:24.789 --> 01:27:30.130
with what's good for them politically. And that's

01:27:30.130 --> 01:27:33.569
where problems begin to arise. Now, the safety

01:27:33.569 --> 01:27:35.689
measure that's supposed to protect us from this

01:27:35.689 --> 01:27:39.329
in the U .S. system and any democracy broadly

01:27:39.329 --> 01:27:42.090
is these people are supposed to be what are called

01:27:42.090 --> 01:27:45.279
public officials. That means we know their decisions.

01:27:45.720 --> 01:27:48.079
That means we know their policies. That means

01:27:48.079 --> 01:27:50.939
we know their programs and prerogatives and powers,

01:27:51.079 --> 01:27:54.579
like what they are doing, both in our name and

01:27:54.579 --> 01:27:58.060
what they're doing against us. And because they

01:27:58.060 --> 01:28:01.739
are transparent to us, we the people can then

01:28:01.739 --> 01:28:03.720
police their activities. We can go, I disagree

01:28:03.720 --> 01:28:06.420
with this. We can protest it. We can campaign

01:28:06.420 --> 01:28:09.039
against it, right? We can try to become the president,

01:28:09.060 --> 01:28:13.670
do whatever. They are public officials. And we

01:28:13.670 --> 01:28:15.430
are private citizens. They're not supposed to

01:28:15.430 --> 01:28:18.489
know anything about us, right? Because we, in

01:28:18.489 --> 01:28:20.829
relative terms, hold no power. And they hold

01:28:20.829 --> 01:28:23.010
all the power. So they have to be under the tightest

01:28:23.010 --> 01:28:26.869
constraints. We need to be in the freest circumstances.

01:28:27.350 --> 01:28:31.859
And yet... The rise of the state secrets doctrine,

01:28:32.159 --> 01:28:34.340
right, this whole classification system that

01:28:34.340 --> 01:28:37.119
goes all the way back to last century, about

01:28:37.119 --> 01:28:39.239
the middle of the last century, I believe, is

01:28:39.239 --> 01:28:40.800
when it really started getting tested in court.

01:28:40.979 --> 01:28:44.340
And I think you know more about this in many

01:28:44.340 --> 01:28:46.119
cases than I do when you start talking about

01:28:46.119 --> 01:28:52.439
what happened in the FBI and the CIA and the

01:28:52.439 --> 01:28:58.140
NSA's sort of old dirty work in the 20th century.

01:29:00.719 --> 01:29:03.659
They abused their powers repeatedly and continuously.

01:29:03.960 --> 01:29:07.979
They did active harm to domestic politics in

01:29:07.979 --> 01:29:09.979
the United States. The FBI was spying on Martin

01:29:09.979 --> 01:29:12.720
Luther King and trying to get Martin Luther King

01:29:12.720 --> 01:29:17.079
to kill himself before the Nobel Prize was going

01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:21.460
to be awarded. In fact, after MLK gave his I

01:29:21.460 --> 01:29:26.199
Have a Dream speech, two days later, The FBI

01:29:26.199 --> 01:29:29.140
classified him as the greatest national, or I

01:29:29.140 --> 01:29:31.640
think it was the greatest national security threat

01:29:31.640 --> 01:29:35.000
in the United States. And again, this is the

01:29:35.000 --> 01:29:37.640
FBI. This is the group that everybody's applauding

01:29:37.640 --> 01:29:39.779
today, saying, oh, these wonderful patriots and

01:29:39.779 --> 01:29:42.960
heroes. Now, I'm not saying everybody at the

01:29:42.960 --> 01:29:45.340
FBI is bad. I'm not saying everybody at the CIA

01:29:45.340 --> 01:29:48.180
and the NSA is bad. I'm saying that you don't

01:29:48.180 --> 01:29:51.869
become a patriot based on where you work. Patriotism

01:29:51.869 --> 01:29:58.489
is not about loyalty to government. Patriotism,

01:29:58.489 --> 01:30:02.470
in fact, is not about loyalty to anything. Patriotism

01:30:02.470 --> 01:30:06.609
is a constant effort to do good for the people

01:30:06.609 --> 01:30:09.729
of your country, right? It's not about the government.

01:30:09.810 --> 01:30:15.659
It's not about the state. And this is, we'll

01:30:15.659 --> 01:30:18.380
get into loyalty later because, you know, I think

01:30:18.380 --> 01:30:20.699
one of the big criticisms against me that should

01:30:20.699 --> 01:30:24.520
be talked about is they go, look, this guy is

01:30:24.520 --> 01:30:26.460
disloyal, he broke an oath, he did whatever.

01:30:29.279 --> 01:30:34.739
Loyalty, loyalty is a good thing when it's in

01:30:34.739 --> 01:30:36.920
the service of something good. But it is only

01:30:36.920 --> 01:30:39.060
good when it's in the service of something good.

01:30:40.039 --> 01:30:42.420
Loyal to a bad person, if you're loyal to a bad

01:30:42.420 --> 01:30:44.460
program, if you're loyal to a bad government,

01:30:44.720 --> 01:30:48.739
that loyalty is actively harmful. And I think

01:30:48.739 --> 01:30:50.460
that's overlooked. But yeah, when you get back

01:30:50.460 --> 01:30:53.460
into this whole thing about sort of where it

01:30:53.460 --> 01:30:59.020
came from, why it happened, how it could come

01:30:59.020 --> 01:31:01.720
out of just this small group, and then they could

01:31:01.720 --> 01:31:06.479
slowly kind of poison. by implication, by complicity,

01:31:06.500 --> 01:31:09.079
by bringing them into the conspiracy and then

01:31:09.079 --> 01:31:11.600
having them not say anything about it, a wider

01:31:11.600 --> 01:31:15.779
and wider broad body of people. And then once

01:31:15.779 --> 01:31:17.880
you've got enough people in on it, it's much

01:31:17.880 --> 01:31:19.619
easier to convince other people that it's legitimate

01:31:19.619 --> 01:31:21.659
because they can go, look, we've got 30 people

01:31:21.659 --> 01:31:24.699
who know about this and none of them have objected

01:31:24.699 --> 01:31:28.159
to it. Why are you going to object to this? All

01:31:28.159 --> 01:31:31.699
of this derives from the original sin, which

01:31:31.699 --> 01:31:36.979
is... In a democracy, creating a system of government

01:31:36.979 --> 01:31:40.560
that is in fact a secret government, a body of

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:44.600
secret law, a body of secret policy, that is

01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:47.420
far beyond what legitimate government secrets

01:31:47.420 --> 01:31:50.039
could be. This is not to say government can have

01:31:50.039 --> 01:31:52.539
no secrecy at all. If the government wants to

01:31:52.539 --> 01:31:55.739
investigate someone, without having them respond,

01:31:56.000 --> 01:31:57.659
right? We're talking traditional law enforcement.

01:31:57.819 --> 01:31:59.560
Sure, you're not going to tell this mobster,

01:31:59.619 --> 01:32:01.199
hey, you know, we're going to start investigating

01:32:01.199 --> 01:32:04.279
you. We, the public, don't need to know the names

01:32:04.279 --> 01:32:06.079
of every terrorist suspect out in the world,

01:32:06.199 --> 01:32:11.439
right? But we do need to know, again, the powers

01:32:11.439 --> 01:32:13.520
and programs, the policies that a government

01:32:13.520 --> 01:32:15.760
is asserting, at least the broad outlines of

01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:17.460
it, because otherwise, how can we control it?

01:32:17.640 --> 01:32:19.680
How do we know if the government is applying

01:32:19.680 --> 01:32:24.619
its authorities that are supposed to be granted

01:32:24.619 --> 01:32:28.840
to it by us if we don't know what it is that

01:32:28.840 --> 01:32:31.699
they're doing. And so this is the main thing,

01:32:31.800 --> 01:32:34.300
and really the story behind the title, Permanent

01:32:34.300 --> 01:32:39.840
Record, is, look, Joe, when you were a kid, you

01:32:39.840 --> 01:32:42.800
know, when I was a kid, when you were a teenager,

01:32:42.939 --> 01:32:44.720
right, like, what's the worst thing you ever

01:32:44.720 --> 01:32:49.199
said? You know, did you say anything you weren't

01:32:49.199 --> 01:32:50.880
proud of? Did you do anything that you weren't

01:32:50.880 --> 01:32:54.500
proud of? Something that today in like the wokest

01:32:54.500 --> 01:32:56.899
of Twitter land you would get in trouble for.

01:32:57.079 --> 01:33:00.380
I'm sure. And that's one of the horrible things

01:33:00.380 --> 01:33:03.079
about kids growing up today is that they do have

01:33:03.079 --> 01:33:05.560
all this stuff out there on social media forever

01:33:05.560 --> 01:33:08.760
and they can be judged horribly by something

01:33:08.760 --> 01:33:12.579
they did when they were 13. It's exactly that.

01:33:15.240 --> 01:33:19.319
Our worst mistakes, our deepest shames, were

01:33:19.319 --> 01:33:23.060
forgotten. They were lost. They were ephemeral.

01:33:23.500 --> 01:33:25.699
Even the things we did get caught for, they were

01:33:25.699 --> 01:33:28.039
known for a time. Maybe they're still remembered

01:33:28.039 --> 01:33:30.420
by people who are closest to us, whether we like

01:33:30.420 --> 01:33:33.439
them or dislike them. But they were people connected

01:33:33.439 --> 01:33:38.220
to us. Now, we're forced to live in a real way

01:33:38.220 --> 01:33:41.239
naked before power. Whether we're talking about

01:33:41.239 --> 01:33:43.600
Facebook, whether we're talking about Google,

01:33:44.140 --> 01:33:45.960
whether we're talking about the government of

01:33:45.960 --> 01:33:50.260
any country, they know everything about us, or

01:33:50.260 --> 01:33:54.159
much about us, rather. And we know very little

01:33:54.159 --> 01:33:56.359
about them, and we're not allowed to know more.

01:33:56.439 --> 01:33:59.760
Everything that we do now lasts forever, not

01:33:59.760 --> 01:34:03.979
because we want to remember, but because we're

01:34:03.979 --> 01:34:07.159
not allowed to forget. Just carrying a phone

01:34:07.159 --> 01:34:09.800
in your pocket is enough for your movements to

01:34:09.800 --> 01:34:12.319
be memorialized, because every cell phone tower

01:34:12.319 --> 01:34:14.529
that you pass... is keeping a record of that.

01:34:15.069 --> 01:34:19.630
And AT &T keeps those records going back to 2008

01:34:19.630 --> 01:34:22.569
under a program called Hemisphere. If you search

01:34:22.569 --> 01:34:25.069
for Hemisphere and AT &T, you'll get a story

01:34:25.069 --> 01:34:27.449
in the Daily Beast about it. AT &T keeps your

01:34:27.449 --> 01:34:32.229
phone records going back to 1983. If any of your

01:34:32.229 --> 01:34:35.109
listeners were born after 1983, right, born after

01:34:35.109 --> 01:34:39.090
me, or it might be 1987, excuse me, 1987. If

01:34:39.090 --> 01:34:41.890
they were born after 1987 and they're an AT &T

01:34:41.890 --> 01:34:44.479
customer, or their calls cross AT &T's network,

01:34:44.720 --> 01:34:47.840
AT &T has every phone call they ever made. Rather,

01:34:47.960 --> 01:34:49.760
the record that it happened, not necessarily

01:34:49.760 --> 01:34:52.640
the content that's on the phone call. And so,

01:34:52.680 --> 01:34:54.260
I mean, let me turn this around for you, Joe,

01:34:54.319 --> 01:34:56.899
because I feel like I've just been given a speech.

01:34:59.140 --> 01:35:01.840
When you look at this stuff, right, when you

01:35:01.840 --> 01:35:04.979
look at what's happening with government, when

01:35:04.979 --> 01:35:07.739
you look at what's happening with the Trump White

01:35:07.739 --> 01:35:09.560
House, the Obama White House, the Bush White

01:35:09.560 --> 01:35:12.479
House, you could see this trend happening. When

01:35:12.479 --> 01:35:14.100
you look at what's happening with Facebook, when

01:35:14.100 --> 01:35:15.760
you look at what's happening with Google, when

01:35:15.760 --> 01:35:17.979
you look at the fact that you go to every restaurant

01:35:17.979 --> 01:35:20.880
today and you see people looking at phones, you

01:35:20.880 --> 01:35:22.939
know, you get on a bus, you get on a subway,

01:35:23.100 --> 01:35:24.979
you know, you see somebody sitting next to you

01:35:24.979 --> 01:35:27.359
in traffic, you see people looking at phones.

01:35:28.439 --> 01:35:31.140
These devices are connected all the time. Now

01:35:31.140 --> 01:35:33.479
people are getting Alexa, right? Now people have

01:35:33.479 --> 01:35:36.300
OK Google. They have, you know, Siri on their

01:35:36.300 --> 01:35:38.420
phones. They're in their house. They've always

01:35:38.420 --> 01:35:42.079
got these connected microphones. Where do you

01:35:42.079 --> 01:35:45.560
think this leads, and what is it that gives you

01:35:45.560 --> 01:35:48.140
sort of trust in the system, faith in the system?

01:35:48.260 --> 01:35:52.899
Just so we can start a conversation here, what

01:35:52.899 --> 01:35:56.340
strikes you about this? Well, it's completely

01:35:56.340 --> 01:35:59.460
alien, and it's new. This is something that's

01:35:59.460 --> 01:36:02.779
unprecedented. We don't have a long human history

01:36:02.779 --> 01:36:05.140
of being completely connected via technology.

01:36:05.539 --> 01:36:07.340
This is something we're navigating right now

01:36:07.340 --> 01:36:11.140
for the first time. And it's probably the most

01:36:11.140 --> 01:36:14.600
powerful thing that the human race has ever seen

01:36:14.600 --> 01:36:16.199
in terms of the distribution of information.

01:36:16.479 --> 01:36:19.600
There's nothing that even comes close to it in

01:36:19.600 --> 01:36:21.699
all of human history. And we're figuring it out

01:36:21.699 --> 01:36:26.100
as we go along. And what you exposed is that

01:36:26.100 --> 01:36:28.979
not only are we figuring out as we go along,

01:36:29.300 --> 01:36:32.819
but that to cover their ass, these cell phone

01:36:32.819 --> 01:36:34.899
companies and cahoots with the government have

01:36:34.899 --> 01:36:38.600
made it legal for them to gather up all of your

01:36:38.600 --> 01:36:41.199
phone calls, all of your text messages, all of

01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:44.239
your emails, and store them somewhere so that

01:36:44.239 --> 01:36:46.699
retroactively, if you ever say anything they

01:36:46.699 --> 01:36:48.979
don't like or do something they don't like, they

01:36:48.979 --> 01:36:52.439
can go back, find that, and use it against you.

01:36:52.560 --> 01:36:54.420
And we don't know who they are, we don't know

01:36:54.420 --> 01:36:56.060
why they're doing it, and we didn't know they

01:36:56.060 --> 01:36:59.380
could do it. until you exposed it. The connection

01:36:59.380 --> 01:37:03.659
of human beings via technology is both amazing

01:37:03.659 --> 01:37:06.819
and powerful and incredible in terms of our access

01:37:06.819 --> 01:37:11.180
to knowledge, but terrifying. In terms of the

01:37:11.180 --> 01:37:13.680
government's ability to track our movements,

01:37:13.939 --> 01:37:16.420
track your phone calls, track everything. And

01:37:16.420 --> 01:37:18.859
under the guise of protecting us from terrorists

01:37:18.859 --> 01:37:21.460
and protecting us from sleeper cells, protecting

01:37:21.460 --> 01:37:23.979
us from attacks. Look, they really are protecting

01:37:23.979 --> 01:37:28.100
us from these attacks. That's great. But there's

01:37:28.100 --> 01:37:33.279
no... provision in the constitution that allows

01:37:33.279 --> 01:37:36.060
any of this and this is where it gets really

01:37:36.060 --> 01:37:38.100
squirrely because they're making up the rules

01:37:38.100 --> 01:37:40.699
as they go along and they're making up these

01:37:40.699 --> 01:37:43.000
rules the way you're describing it this is step

01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:45.520
by step this has happened to sort of protect

01:37:45.520 --> 01:37:48.479
their ass and keep themselves from being implicated

01:37:48.479 --> 01:37:52.020
in what has been a violation of our rights and

01:37:52.020 --> 01:37:55.319
our privacies and the fourth amendment yeah i

01:37:55.319 --> 01:37:57.880
mean i i think i think one of the things that

01:37:57.880 --> 01:38:03.069
that Everybody needs to understand when you look

01:38:03.069 --> 01:38:06.229
at these things. And the reason, you know, we

01:38:06.229 --> 01:38:08.369
talked about before, when I got this information,

01:38:08.529 --> 01:38:09.970
why I didn't just put it on the Internet and

01:38:09.970 --> 01:38:11.869
people criticize me for this. They go, I didn't

01:38:11.869 --> 01:38:14.850
share enough information because the journalists

01:38:14.850 --> 01:38:17.270
are gatekeeping. Right. They've got a big archive

01:38:17.270 --> 01:38:18.670
and they haven't published everything from it.

01:38:18.710 --> 01:38:21.050
And I told them not to publish everything. Why?

01:38:21.069 --> 01:38:24.989
Why did you do that? Why did you do that? Because,

01:38:24.989 --> 01:38:27.369
so again, it gets back to legitimate secrets

01:38:27.369 --> 01:38:32.590
and illegitimate secrets. Some spying from my

01:38:32.590 --> 01:38:35.829
perspective, you know, career spy is okay, right?

01:38:35.970 --> 01:38:38.689
Agreed. If you have hacked a terrorist's phone,

01:38:38.850 --> 01:38:40.430
right, and you're getting some information about

01:38:40.430 --> 01:38:42.829
that, useful. Agreed, yeah. If you're spying

01:38:42.829 --> 01:38:46.590
on a Russian general in charge of a, you know,

01:38:46.590 --> 01:38:51.489
rocket division. useful, right? But there are

01:38:51.489 --> 01:38:54.529
lines and degrees in that where it's not useful.

01:38:54.970 --> 01:38:57.649
Now, the examples that I just gave you, these

01:38:57.649 --> 01:38:59.890
are targeted. This is where you're spying on

01:38:59.890 --> 01:39:03.189
an individual, their known named person that

01:39:03.189 --> 01:39:05.829
is being monitored for a specific reason that

01:39:05.829 --> 01:39:09.420
is related broadly to things that people... Right.

01:39:09.439 --> 01:39:12.640
Well, even for foreign intelligence in some indications,

01:39:12.979 --> 01:39:16.819
you don't need a warrant strictly. Although I

01:39:16.819 --> 01:39:18.760
think they should have warrants for all of these

01:39:18.760 --> 01:39:21.100
investigations because they established a court

01:39:21.100 --> 01:39:23.500
for precisely this reason called the Foreign

01:39:23.500 --> 01:39:26.239
Intelligence Surveillance Court, right? And there's

01:39:26.239 --> 01:39:28.840
not a judge in the world who wouldn't stamp a

01:39:28.840 --> 01:39:32.600
warrant saying, hey, spy on Abu Jihad over here,

01:39:32.720 --> 01:39:37.880
right? And if you want to spy on another guy,

01:39:38.079 --> 01:39:41.460
Boris Badenov of the Rocket Division, that's

01:39:41.460 --> 01:39:45.680
okay. They're going to go with that. But then

01:39:45.680 --> 01:39:50.300
you look at these edge cases. In the archive

01:39:50.300 --> 01:39:51.800
that I provided to journalists, there have been

01:39:51.800 --> 01:39:53.800
stories that have come out where they've spied

01:39:53.800 --> 01:39:56.340
on journalists. They've spied on human rights

01:39:56.340 --> 01:39:59.779
groups. And these kind of things, I think...

01:40:00.720 --> 01:40:03.579
People miss. I'm going to throw up some slides

01:40:03.579 --> 01:40:05.899
here, so forgive me if this gets weird and I

01:40:05.899 --> 01:40:10.199
put up the wrong ones. But since I came forward,

01:40:10.380 --> 01:40:13.600
this foreign intelligence surveillance court

01:40:13.600 --> 01:40:16.819
that the government says authorized these programs

01:40:16.819 --> 01:40:21.659
15 different times was overruled. by the first

01:40:21.659 --> 01:40:23.680
open courts to look at the program. These are

01:40:23.680 --> 01:40:26.199
federal courts here, right, that said, no, actually,

01:40:26.260 --> 01:40:29.039
these programs are unlawful. They're likely unconstitutional.

01:40:29.140 --> 01:40:32.079
When you start looking at the facts, you see,

01:40:32.119 --> 01:40:35.100
even within the context of the very loose restrictions

01:40:35.100 --> 01:40:37.619
and laws that apply to the NSA and surveillance,

01:40:37.920 --> 01:40:44.500
they say they broke their own laws 2 ,776 times

01:40:44.500 --> 01:40:47.439
in a single year. And then you asked about that

01:40:47.439 --> 01:40:49.659
thing that motivates me, like why I came forward.

01:40:51.300 --> 01:40:56.100
We had been trying as a country before I came

01:40:56.100 --> 01:40:59.439
forward to prove the existence of these programs

01:40:59.439 --> 01:41:05.789
legally. Because this is our means of last sort

01:41:05.789 --> 01:41:09.109
of recourse in our system, right? We got the

01:41:09.109 --> 01:41:11.770
executive, we got the legislature, we got the

01:41:11.770 --> 01:41:15.189
judiciary, right? So Congress makes the laws,

01:41:15.250 --> 01:41:16.649
the executive is supposed to carry them out,

01:41:16.710 --> 01:41:20.130
the courts are supposed to play referee. The

01:41:20.130 --> 01:41:24.350
executive had broken the laws. Congress was turning

01:41:24.350 --> 01:41:28.590
a blind eye to the laws. And the courts were,

01:41:28.689 --> 01:41:31.090
and this is just months before I came forward,

01:41:31.170 --> 01:41:37.029
going, well, it does appear that the ACLU and

01:41:37.029 --> 01:41:41.750
Amnesty International, like all of these human

01:41:41.750 --> 01:41:43.890
rights groups and non -governmental organizations,

01:41:44.369 --> 01:41:48.630
had established that, you know, these programs

01:41:48.630 --> 01:41:53.560
are likely unlawful. They likely exist. They're

01:41:53.560 --> 01:41:55.420
simply classified. But the government responded

01:41:55.420 --> 01:41:59.020
with this argument that you just saw, saying

01:41:59.020 --> 01:42:02.000
that, well, it's a state secret if they do exist.

01:42:02.600 --> 01:42:05.619
You, the plaintiffs, don't have hard, concrete

01:42:05.619 --> 01:42:08.560
evidence that they do exist. And the government

01:42:08.560 --> 01:42:11.939
is saying, legally, you have no right to discover

01:42:11.939 --> 01:42:13.800
evidence from the government, write documents,

01:42:13.960 --> 01:42:15.520
demand documents, or demand an answer from the

01:42:15.520 --> 01:42:19.659
government as to whether or not these things

01:42:19.659 --> 01:42:21.880
exist, because the government's just going to

01:42:21.880 --> 01:42:24.260
give its standard, what they call, Glomar response.

01:42:24.319 --> 01:42:26.880
We can neither confirm nor deny that these things

01:42:26.880 --> 01:42:30.399
exist. Which leaves you out in the cold. which

01:42:30.399 --> 01:42:32.260
leaves the courts out in the cold. The courts

01:42:32.260 --> 01:42:35.399
go, look, the government could be breaking the

01:42:35.399 --> 01:42:37.539
law here. Look, they could be violating the Constitution

01:42:37.539 --> 01:42:41.239
here. But because you can't prove it, and because

01:42:41.239 --> 01:42:42.880
the government doesn't want to play ball, and

01:42:42.880 --> 01:42:47.720
the government says, if we were doing this, it

01:42:47.720 --> 01:42:50.359
would be legal, and it would be necessary for

01:42:50.359 --> 01:42:53.560
national security or whatever. The court can't

01:42:53.560 --> 01:42:56.159
presume to know national security better than

01:42:56.159 --> 01:42:58.439
the executive because the courts aren't elected.

01:42:59.389 --> 01:43:02.090
And so this leads to this fundamentally broken

01:43:02.090 --> 01:43:04.850
system where, okay, the only way to have the

01:43:04.850 --> 01:43:08.229
courts review the legality of the programs is

01:43:08.229 --> 01:43:11.310
to establish the programs exist. But the programs

01:43:11.310 --> 01:43:13.850
are classified, so you can't establish they exist

01:43:13.850 --> 01:43:16.930
unless you have evidence. But providing that

01:43:16.930 --> 01:43:20.350
evidence to courts, to journalists, to anyone

01:43:20.350 --> 01:43:24.189
is a felony, right, that's punishable by 10 years

01:43:24.189 --> 01:43:27.199
per count under the Espionage Act. And the government

01:43:27.199 --> 01:43:30.939
has charged every source of public interest journalism

01:43:30.939 --> 01:43:33.560
who's really made a significant difference in

01:43:33.560 --> 01:43:36.760
these kind of cases since Daniel Ellsberg, really

01:43:36.760 --> 01:43:39.420
going back to that, under the same Espionage

01:43:39.420 --> 01:43:41.960
Act. It's always the same law. And there's no

01:43:41.960 --> 01:43:44.760
distinction to government between whether you've

01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:46.979
sold information to a foreign government for

01:43:46.979 --> 01:43:51.520
private benefit, right, or whether you provided

01:43:51.520 --> 01:43:54.699
information only to journalists for the public

01:43:54.699 --> 01:43:58.470
interest. And that's a fundamentally harmful

01:43:58.470 --> 01:44:03.930
thing, I think. When you look at things that

01:44:03.930 --> 01:44:05.630
have come in the wake of this, we're talking

01:44:05.630 --> 01:44:09.109
about the post -2013 court rulings that found

01:44:09.109 --> 01:44:13.250
what the government was doing was unlawful. You

01:44:13.250 --> 01:44:16.729
see the courts saying actually that leaks, or

01:44:16.729 --> 01:44:21.329
air quotes leaks, can actually be beneficial.

01:44:23.239 --> 01:44:26.079
Leak is used in the governance, and this is from

01:44:26.079 --> 01:44:28.000
a federal court. These are not exactly my biggest

01:44:28.000 --> 01:44:30.880
supporters. They're recognizing that although

01:44:30.880 --> 01:44:34.159
leak implies harm, it implies something that's

01:44:34.159 --> 01:44:36.520
broken, it's actually helpful. It's a leak that's

01:44:36.520 --> 01:44:40.239
letting in daylight in this context. That is

01:44:40.239 --> 01:44:45.119
the only thing that allows the system to operate

01:44:45.119 --> 01:44:49.399
in a context where one year before I came forward,

01:44:50.079 --> 01:44:52.380
We had the NSA saying this kind of stuff didn't

01:44:52.380 --> 01:44:57.720
happen. We had, hang on, this famous exchange,

01:44:57.819 --> 01:45:00.119
which more than anything made me realize this

01:45:00.119 --> 01:45:01.880
was a point of no return. Because I've told you

01:45:01.880 --> 01:45:04.640
this, you've heard this, but if you haven't seen

01:45:04.640 --> 01:45:09.020
it, you might not believe me, right? Maybe I'm

01:45:09.020 --> 01:45:11.920
a sketchy guy, whatever. One of those senators

01:45:11.920 --> 01:45:13.739
I told you that objected to this stuff, that

01:45:13.739 --> 01:45:15.779
was doing the Lassie barks for all those years,

01:45:16.260 --> 01:45:19.829
Ron Wyden. was confronting the most senior spy

01:45:19.829 --> 01:45:22.930
in the United States, General James Clapper,

01:45:23.050 --> 01:45:25.630
who was then the Director of National Intelligence,

01:45:25.850 --> 01:45:29.289
right? There's no guy higher than him. The buck

01:45:29.289 --> 01:45:30.649
stops with him when it comes to intelligence.

01:45:31.729 --> 01:45:34.050
He's testifying under oath in front of Congress,

01:45:34.289 --> 01:45:37.369
right? But more broadly, in front of the public.

01:45:37.390 --> 01:45:39.710
This is televised. And Ron Wyden asked him a

01:45:39.710 --> 01:45:42.560
very specific question. about a program, mind

01:45:42.560 --> 01:45:46.159
you, that Ron Wyden knows exists. Because he

01:45:46.159 --> 01:45:47.939
has security clearance, he sits on the Intelligence

01:45:47.939 --> 01:45:50.760
Committee. And he knows there's domestic mass

01:45:50.760 --> 01:45:52.579
surveillance. And this is how it goes. This is

01:45:52.579 --> 01:45:58.939
how the top spy responds under oath. So what

01:45:58.939 --> 01:46:01.680
I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes

01:46:01.680 --> 01:46:05.180
or no answer to the question, does the NSA collect

01:46:05.180 --> 01:46:09.699
any type of data at all? on millions or hundreds

01:46:09.699 --> 01:46:15.060
of millions of Americans? No, sir. It does not?

01:46:16.619 --> 01:46:20.579
Not wittingly. There are cases where they could

01:46:20.579 --> 01:46:25.880
inadvertently perhaps collect, but not wittingly.

01:46:28.720 --> 01:46:34.020
So that was a lie. Wyden knew it was a lie. Clapper

01:46:34.020 --> 01:46:36.500
knew it was a lie. He actually admitted it was

01:46:36.500 --> 01:46:39.680
a lie after I came forward, you know, three months

01:46:39.680 --> 01:46:44.119
later. But he said it was the least untruthful

01:46:44.119 --> 01:46:47.180
thing he could think of to say in the context

01:46:47.180 --> 01:46:50.920
of being in the hot seat there. But what does

01:46:50.920 --> 01:46:53.279
it mean for a democracy when you can lie under

01:46:53.279 --> 01:46:55.439
oath to Congress and the congressman even knows

01:46:55.439 --> 01:46:58.239
you're lying to them, but they're afraid to correct

01:46:58.239 --> 01:47:01.590
you? And Wyden... By the way, it wasn't a surprise.

01:47:01.770 --> 01:47:04.090
Wyden gave him those questions 24 hours in advance,

01:47:04.310 --> 01:47:07.930
and he wrote a letter afterwards asking for Clapper

01:47:07.930 --> 01:47:10.949
to amend his testimony, not even at a press conference,

01:47:11.050 --> 01:47:14.270
but just say this was incorrect, whatever, so

01:47:14.270 --> 01:47:16.529
he could go through the legal process and show

01:47:16.529 --> 01:47:19.560
his fellow congressmen. that there was a problem

01:47:19.560 --> 01:47:21.380
and that they needed to do it. But all of that

01:47:21.380 --> 01:47:24.739
was refused to us. All of it was denied to us.

01:47:24.779 --> 01:47:28.939
And here I am sitting at the NSA next to my buddies

01:47:28.939 --> 01:47:31.300
who I've talked to about these programs. You

01:47:31.300 --> 01:47:34.300
know, I've gone, look at this. And they're laughing

01:47:34.300 --> 01:47:36.439
at it. You know, I'm laughing at it. And it's

01:47:36.439 --> 01:47:38.760
not that we go, oh, ha, ha, ha, he's getting

01:47:38.760 --> 01:47:40.640
away with it. It's like, what are you going to

01:47:40.640 --> 01:47:43.659
do? These guys are, you know, they're bullshitters.

01:47:43.680 --> 01:47:49.479
The system is built on lies. That even many people,

01:47:49.539 --> 01:47:52.659
many experts who have studied this know are lies.

01:47:53.140 --> 01:47:57.319
But if you can't prove they are lies, how do

01:47:57.319 --> 01:47:59.819
you move beyond that? And that's really a question

01:47:59.819 --> 01:48:02.699
that has never been more relevant than I think

01:48:02.699 --> 01:48:05.779
it is today under the current White House. So

01:48:05.779 --> 01:48:08.319
you're in this position where you have this information

01:48:08.319 --> 01:48:11.899
and you know that these surveillance systems

01:48:11.899 --> 01:48:15.390
are in place and they're unconstitutional. And

01:48:15.390 --> 01:48:17.869
you feel this deep responsibility to let the

01:48:17.869 --> 01:48:21.390
American people know about this. What makes you

01:48:21.390 --> 01:48:29.430
take the leap? So this is covered extensively

01:48:29.430 --> 01:48:33.989
in the book because it took a long time. I would

01:48:33.989 --> 01:48:37.609
imagine. People, you know, yeah, right, exactly.

01:48:37.670 --> 01:48:40.310
People like to think it's like a cinematic moment.

01:48:41.660 --> 01:48:44.060
where I find this golden document, like this

01:48:44.060 --> 01:48:46.380
Stellar Wind Report, and that's the closest thing

01:48:46.380 --> 01:48:51.119
to a smoking gun, right, that exists. But look,

01:48:51.199 --> 01:48:53.119
if you found that, you can read that later, look

01:48:53.119 --> 01:48:54.899
at that, and like imagine yourself being like,

01:48:54.979 --> 01:48:56.779
oh, I'm going to go outside on the courthouse

01:48:56.779 --> 01:48:59.020
steps and wave this thing and burn my life to

01:48:59.020 --> 01:49:00.539
the ground, burn my family to the ground, I'm

01:49:00.539 --> 01:49:02.819
never going to be at work again, I'm going to

01:49:02.819 --> 01:49:07.279
jail for the rest of my life. The question is,

01:49:07.319 --> 01:49:09.520
what would it take for you to light a match and

01:49:09.520 --> 01:49:15.100
burn your life to the ground? And for a long

01:49:15.100 --> 01:49:21.600
time, too long, the answer was nothing. And I'm

01:49:21.600 --> 01:49:30.180
ashamed of that. It took me so long to get over

01:49:30.180 --> 01:49:31.460
that hump because I was waiting for somebody

01:49:31.460 --> 01:49:35.439
else to do it. When I saw people like Ron Wyden,

01:49:36.330 --> 01:49:38.750
When I saw people like the court case that I

01:49:38.750 --> 01:49:40.810
showed before where people were actively challenging

01:49:40.810 --> 01:49:43.430
these programs, right? Journalists had the scent

01:49:43.430 --> 01:49:46.569
of it. And, you know, there are a lot of people

01:49:46.569 --> 01:49:48.710
who are going to be in, you know, the YouTube

01:49:48.710 --> 01:49:50.409
comments or whatever and go, oh, I knew this

01:49:50.409 --> 01:49:52.869
was happening. No, you didn't. Well, Bill Bimini.

01:49:53.149 --> 01:49:56.869
You had. Bill Binney. Excuse me, Bill Binney.

01:49:56.890 --> 01:50:00.510
He initially was the one that came out and spoke

01:50:00.510 --> 01:50:07.529
about this issue. Yeah, Bill Binney is part of,

01:50:07.569 --> 01:50:10.210
shall we say, the group of early NSA whistleblowers

01:50:10.210 --> 01:50:12.850
who came with Thomas Drake, Bill Binney, Kirk

01:50:12.850 --> 01:50:16.310
Wiebe, I believe, and Ed Loomis. And these guys

01:50:16.310 --> 01:50:19.529
all got their doors kicked in. They got harassed

01:50:19.529 --> 01:50:23.109
by the FBI. Tom Drake, who was a senior executive

01:50:23.109 --> 01:50:25.050
at the NSA, this is a guy who had a lot to lose.

01:50:25.860 --> 01:50:28.260
was charged under the same law as the Espionage

01:50:28.260 --> 01:50:30.439
Act. And these guys were doing it earlier during

01:50:30.439 --> 01:50:32.960
the Bush administration. Some of them were talking

01:50:32.960 --> 01:50:35.859
to the journalists that, you know, maybe it's

01:50:35.859 --> 01:50:37.279
alleged. I don't want to put them on the spot.

01:50:37.340 --> 01:50:39.979
Maybe they deny it. Maybe they don't. Leave that

01:50:39.979 --> 01:50:45.140
to them. But somebody somewhere was informing

01:50:45.140 --> 01:50:47.439
this reporting, right, that got into the New

01:50:47.439 --> 01:50:49.300
York Times about the Bush -era warrantless wiretapping

01:50:49.300 --> 01:50:51.460
program. And eventually journalists put this

01:50:51.460 --> 01:50:53.819
out there. People knew these capabilities existed.

01:50:55.280 --> 01:50:57.220
But yeah, then there's the person in the YouTube

01:50:57.220 --> 01:50:58.899
comments who's like, oh, we knew all about this.

01:50:58.920 --> 01:51:01.119
It's nothing new. And the thing is, you can know

01:51:01.119 --> 01:51:02.840
about some programs and not know about others.

01:51:03.039 --> 01:51:05.920
You can have a suspicion. You can know with certainty

01:51:05.920 --> 01:51:08.600
that this stuff is capable or is possible, the

01:51:08.600 --> 01:51:10.920
capability exists. You can know that the government

01:51:10.920 --> 01:51:12.619
has done this stuff in the past. You can know

01:51:12.619 --> 01:51:14.579
they are likely to do it again. You can have

01:51:14.579 --> 01:51:16.939
all these indications. You can have like the

01:51:16.939 --> 01:51:21.609
Juul versus NSA case that's run by the EFF. which

01:51:21.609 --> 01:51:27.449
is about AT &T setting up secret rooms in their

01:51:27.449 --> 01:51:30.470
telecommunications facilities where they basically

01:51:30.470 --> 01:51:34.550
drag all the fibers for their domestic internet

01:51:34.550 --> 01:51:38.149
communications and phone communications into

01:51:38.149 --> 01:51:40.529
a room that's purpose -built for the NSA, and

01:51:40.529 --> 01:51:44.310
then they bring it out. But AT &T denies it's

01:51:44.310 --> 01:51:48.329
the NSA. The NSA denies that these things happen

01:51:48.329 --> 01:51:51.590
or that are done at all. And so this is the context.

01:51:52.409 --> 01:51:55.470
You say you know, and let's put it the other

01:51:55.470 --> 01:51:58.409
way. Maybe you do know. Maybe you are an academic

01:51:58.409 --> 01:52:01.090
researcher. Maybe you're a technological specialist.

01:52:02.449 --> 01:52:04.829
Maybe you're just somebody who reads all the

01:52:04.829 --> 01:52:07.949
reporting and you actually know. You can't prove

01:52:07.949 --> 01:52:10.550
it, but you know this is going on. But that's

01:52:10.550 --> 01:52:14.500
the thing in a democracy. The distance. Between

01:52:14.500 --> 01:52:17.739
speculation and fact. The distance between what

01:52:17.739 --> 01:52:20.800
you know and what you can prove to everybody

01:52:20.800 --> 01:52:24.300
else in the country is everything in our model

01:52:24.300 --> 01:52:26.600
of government. Because what you know doesn't

01:52:26.600 --> 01:52:30.300
matter. What matters is what we all know. And

01:52:30.300 --> 01:52:31.840
the only way we can all know it is if somebody

01:52:31.840 --> 01:52:33.600
can prove it. If you can prove it. And if you

01:52:33.600 --> 01:52:35.060
don't have the evidence, you can't prove it.

01:52:35.520 --> 01:52:37.340
And, of course, when we talk about the earlier

01:52:37.340 --> 01:52:40.300
stuff, right, like a more corporatized media,

01:52:40.659 --> 01:52:43.979
they've got a thousand incentives. Not to get

01:52:43.979 --> 01:52:46.180
involved in this stuff. They need access to the

01:52:46.180 --> 01:52:48.079
White House. They need these officials to sit

01:52:48.079 --> 01:52:50.460
down with them and give interviews, right? That's

01:52:50.460 --> 01:52:52.859
constant content that they need. That's access

01:52:52.859 --> 01:52:55.060
that they need. They need to be taken seriously.

01:52:55.159 --> 01:52:58.119
They need to be, you know, admitted to briefers.

01:52:58.460 --> 01:53:06.600
It is a codependent relationship. And yet, rather,

01:53:06.939 --> 01:53:10.600
and so, the only way to make sure people understand

01:53:10.600 --> 01:53:14.739
this broadly, Is if we all work together, right?

01:53:14.939 --> 01:53:19.319
If we collectively can establish a corpus of

01:53:19.319 --> 01:53:23.619
evidence, right? A body of facts that is so large

01:53:23.619 --> 01:53:29.239
and so persuasive, it overcomes the natural and

01:53:29.239 --> 01:53:32.100
understandable resistance of these more corporatized

01:53:32.100 --> 01:53:37.029
media groups. overcomes the political and partisan

01:53:37.029 --> 01:53:40.170
sort of loyalties that all of these political

01:53:40.170 --> 01:53:42.810
factions in the country do, where they go, you

01:53:42.810 --> 01:53:45.090
know, it's my president. Even if I don't like

01:53:45.090 --> 01:53:46.909
this stuff, even if I don't agree with this stuff,

01:53:47.050 --> 01:53:49.229
I don't want to say it exists. I want to deny

01:53:49.229 --> 01:53:54.020
it until it's proved. you know, in HD on video,

01:53:54.140 --> 01:53:55.920
you know, signing the order to do this, that

01:53:55.920 --> 01:53:58.479
or the other, because otherwise there's a chance

01:53:58.479 --> 01:54:01.000
my guy might not get reelected. And that's the

01:54:01.000 --> 01:54:02.840
only way this kind of stuff can happen. And the

01:54:02.840 --> 01:54:07.079
sad fact is the opportunities that we have to

01:54:07.079 --> 01:54:09.279
prove this, like the moments in history where

01:54:09.279 --> 01:54:12.800
we do prove something, anything beyond a reasonable

01:54:12.800 --> 01:54:18.260
doubt are so few and so rare that they almost

01:54:18.260 --> 01:54:22.699
always only come. From whistleblowers. And I

01:54:22.699 --> 01:54:25.800
think that's one of the problems that we have,

01:54:25.920 --> 01:54:30.899
particularly in the climate movement. Go ahead.

01:54:31.000 --> 01:54:34.319
I'm sorry. Did you take any comfort from knowing

01:54:34.319 --> 01:54:37.119
that Obama, when he was running for office and

01:54:37.119 --> 01:54:40.319
in his Hope and Change website, he had provisions

01:54:40.319 --> 01:54:45.399
to protect whistleblowers and provisions to reward

01:54:45.399 --> 01:54:48.449
people? Right. I mean, do you remember all that?

01:54:48.470 --> 01:54:50.409
I mean, it was eventually redacted or eventually

01:54:50.409 --> 01:54:53.449
deleted it from the website. Disappeared it from.

01:54:53.489 --> 01:54:57.189
Yes. But that was a big part of his program or

01:54:57.189 --> 01:54:59.989
what he was running on was that when people were

01:54:59.989 --> 01:55:02.850
exposing unlawful activity, he was going to protect

01:55:02.850 --> 01:55:05.930
those people. Did that did you take any comfort

01:55:05.930 --> 01:55:10.380
in that? Well, Obama also during his campaign

01:55:10.380 --> 01:55:13.539
said he campaigned actively against the warrantless

01:55:13.539 --> 01:55:15.840
wiretapping, the Bush administration. Because

01:55:15.840 --> 01:55:18.260
remember, Bush is in the scandal, the height

01:55:18.260 --> 01:55:21.340
of this, in 2007. You know, the election's coming

01:55:21.340 --> 01:55:24.500
up right after. And he's going, Obama's saying,

01:55:24.640 --> 01:55:29.100
you know, that's not who we are. That's not what

01:55:29.100 --> 01:55:33.640
we do. And yet within 100 days of him becoming

01:55:33.640 --> 01:55:37.210
president. Now he's sitting in that chair. Rather

01:55:37.210 --> 01:55:39.350
than extinguishing these programs, he embraces

01:55:39.350 --> 01:55:41.409
them and expands them. Why do you think that

01:55:41.409 --> 01:55:45.489
is? I think it's actually, again, what we talked

01:55:45.489 --> 01:55:49.510
about earlier. First thing, every time a new

01:55:49.510 --> 01:55:52.789
president comes into the White House, they get

01:55:52.789 --> 01:55:55.250
their clearances, right? They get read into all

01:55:55.250 --> 01:55:57.649
this stuff. During the campaign, they get clearances

01:55:57.649 --> 01:55:59.710
and they get read into stuff. But when they finally

01:55:59.710 --> 01:56:01.930
become president, right, now they're the only

01:56:01.930 --> 01:56:04.229
people who can sign what these are called the...

01:56:04.460 --> 01:56:06.859
covert action findings and things like that,

01:56:07.000 --> 01:56:09.840
which are basically, you know, the intelligence

01:56:09.840 --> 01:56:11.739
community wants to assassinate somebody. They

01:56:11.739 --> 01:56:13.939
want to run this illegal program here, there,

01:56:14.020 --> 01:56:17.960
or everywhere. And they can't do it because they're

01:56:17.960 --> 01:56:20.359
executive agencies without that top -level executive

01:56:20.359 --> 01:56:23.020
sign -off. So they've got to open the vest, right?

01:56:23.060 --> 01:56:29.600
They've got to get these guys on side. And basically

01:56:29.600 --> 01:56:33.779
every president since Kennedy They have been

01:56:33.779 --> 01:56:36.939
successful in what they call fearing up, where

01:56:36.939 --> 01:56:41.119
as soon as they come in, they read you the litany

01:56:41.119 --> 01:56:43.859
of horribles. These are all the threats that

01:56:43.859 --> 01:56:47.439
we're facing. And let's be real, it is a dangerous

01:56:47.439 --> 01:56:51.819
world. It's not just all made -up BS. Some of

01:56:51.819 --> 01:56:54.439
it is, right, where it's inflated. It's not that

01:56:54.439 --> 01:56:56.359
it's completely false, but they make it sound

01:56:56.359 --> 01:57:00.119
more serious than it actually is. But there are

01:57:00.119 --> 01:57:02.279
real bad people out there who are trying to do

01:57:02.279 --> 01:57:04.720
real bad things. And you have just gone through

01:57:04.720 --> 01:57:08.979
a hellish election because our electoral politics

01:57:08.979 --> 01:57:14.960
are so diseased. And now, after you've crawled

01:57:14.960 --> 01:57:16.939
through fire, you're already thinking four years

01:57:16.939 --> 01:57:20.140
ahead. You know, how do I stay in this seat?

01:57:20.260 --> 01:57:24.000
And these guys are basically saying, if you don't

01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:27.279
do X, Y, and Z, This is going to fall on your

01:57:27.279 --> 01:57:29.800
lap. And the implication, which I don't think

01:57:29.800 --> 01:57:31.539
they actually say, but every president knows,

01:57:31.760 --> 01:57:36.600
is these guys can undermine you to death. If

01:57:36.600 --> 01:57:40.039
you've got the IC against you, right, they can

01:57:40.039 --> 01:57:42.979
stonewall you. They can put out stories that

01:57:42.979 --> 01:57:45.359
are going to be problematic for you every day

01:57:45.359 --> 01:57:49.479
of your presidency. And it's not that it's necessarily

01:57:49.479 --> 01:57:52.260
going to cast you out of the White House, but

01:57:52.260 --> 01:57:54.140
it's a problem that as a president you very much

01:57:54.140 --> 01:57:57.869
don't want. So in the most charitable interpretation

01:57:57.869 --> 01:58:00.949
of this, you've got a new guy coming in. In Obama's

01:58:00.949 --> 01:58:04.689
case, this is a pretty young guy. Doesn't focus

01:58:04.689 --> 01:58:07.810
in this kind of national security foreign policy

01:58:07.810 --> 01:58:10.289
stuff throughout his earlier career. He's more

01:58:10.289 --> 01:58:12.250
interested in domestic policy and always has

01:58:12.250 --> 01:58:13.890
been. That's actually one of the positive things

01:58:13.890 --> 01:58:17.189
to say about Barack Obama. He's just trying to

01:58:17.189 --> 01:58:19.090
make things better at home. And now suddenly

01:58:19.090 --> 01:58:22.039
they go, look. You need to worry about this country.

01:58:22.119 --> 01:58:23.520
You need to worry about this group that you've

01:58:23.520 --> 01:58:25.079
never heard of. You need to worry about, you

01:58:25.079 --> 01:58:26.779
know, this technology. You need to do all this

01:58:26.779 --> 01:58:30.659
stuff. And the only reason we can tell you this

01:58:30.659 --> 01:58:35.060
stuff, and the only thing dividing America and

01:58:35.060 --> 01:58:38.439
the abyss are these terrible, terrible, terrible,

01:58:38.600 --> 01:58:42.319
terrible programs, right? That are in fact wonderful

01:58:42.319 --> 01:58:47.079
things because they keep back the darkness. And

01:58:47.079 --> 01:58:51.739
so here's the real problem. Every president hears

01:58:51.739 --> 01:58:53.520
that and every president, you know, first off,

01:58:53.539 --> 01:58:55.239
they've got so many other things to do. They

01:58:55.239 --> 01:58:56.880
just kind of nod their head and they'll go, I'll

01:58:56.880 --> 01:58:59.100
deal with this later in my administration. And

01:58:59.100 --> 01:59:02.340
this is one of the ironies. When I came forward

01:59:02.340 --> 01:59:05.659
in 2013, this is now Barack Obama's second term

01:59:05.659 --> 01:59:09.600
president. One of the responses that they had

01:59:09.600 --> 01:59:12.359
to the mass surveillance scandal was, yes, we

01:59:12.359 --> 01:59:14.500
think they went a little too far. This is after

01:59:14.500 --> 01:59:16.420
the initial thing where they went, nobody's listening

01:59:16.420 --> 01:59:20.539
to your phone calls. Just made a data. Right,

01:59:20.659 --> 01:59:24.659
nobody can have perfect privacy and also have

01:59:24.659 --> 01:59:27.039
perfect security, so we've got to sort of divide

01:59:27.039 --> 01:59:30.439
a line here between the Constitution and what

01:59:30.439 --> 01:59:36.359
the government wants to do. But they said, we

01:59:36.359 --> 01:59:39.979
were going to get to it. We knew these programs

01:59:39.979 --> 01:59:42.619
were problematic, but if they just gave us more

01:59:42.619 --> 01:59:46.439
time, we would have fixed them. Maybe it's true,

01:59:46.579 --> 01:59:49.260
right? Seems awful convenient in hindsight that

01:59:49.260 --> 01:59:50.859
throughout the entirety of the first term. Well,

01:59:50.920 --> 01:59:53.140
it seems like what you would say if you got caught.

01:59:53.859 --> 01:59:59.939
Right, right, right, right. But look, if we're

01:59:59.939 --> 02:00:02.899
being the most generous that we are here, the

02:00:02.899 --> 02:00:06.000
president is briefed on real and legitimate threats.

02:00:06.720 --> 02:00:08.779
And they scare the hell out of him. I'm sure.

02:00:10.329 --> 02:00:12.569
And we can all imagine being there, right? Those

02:00:12.569 --> 02:00:14.649
of us who remember what the world was like post

02:00:14.649 --> 02:00:18.109
9 -11, fear is a powerful thing. But the guys

02:00:18.109 --> 02:00:22.069
who are doing that briefing, they're no longer

02:00:22.069 --> 02:00:24.689
scared of it because they've been dealing with

02:00:24.689 --> 02:00:26.210
this for years. This is the oldest thing. They've

02:00:26.210 --> 02:00:28.229
given this briefing times before. You know, when

02:00:28.229 --> 02:00:30.270
we talk about, people talk about the deep state.

02:00:30.829 --> 02:00:33.710
Right. They talk about it like some conspiracy

02:00:33.710 --> 02:00:36.390
of lizard people. It's not that. It's something

02:00:36.390 --> 02:00:39.010
much simpler. The deep state is simply the career

02:00:39.010 --> 02:00:41.310
government. It's the people who are in the same

02:00:41.310 --> 02:00:44.729
offices who outlive and outlast presidencies.

02:00:44.729 --> 02:00:46.710
Right. They've seen Republicans. They've seen

02:00:46.710 --> 02:00:50.189
Democrats. They don't really care. And they give

02:00:50.189 --> 02:00:52.189
that same briefing again and again and they get

02:00:52.189 --> 02:00:55.529
good at it. They know what they want. They know

02:00:55.529 --> 02:00:58.229
what this person's saying. Whereas the president,

02:00:58.289 --> 02:01:01.340
they don't know who these people are. These people

02:01:01.340 --> 02:01:02.960
have been there before the president, they're

02:01:02.960 --> 02:01:05.140
going to be there after the president. And so

02:01:05.140 --> 02:01:08.359
they give this very effective, very fear -inducing

02:01:08.359 --> 02:01:11.020
speech, and then they follow it up with their

02:01:11.020 --> 02:01:15.600
asks, which are really demands, just politely

02:01:15.600 --> 02:01:19.199
provided. And anyone in that position who is

02:01:19.199 --> 02:01:22.479
not an expert on this stuff, who is not ready

02:01:22.479 --> 02:01:26.880
for this sort of trade -off, and who you have

02:01:26.880 --> 02:01:30.399
to understand as a career politician, is entirely

02:01:30.399 --> 02:01:33.100
used to the horse trading game, right? And going,

02:01:33.140 --> 02:01:35.939
I'll deal with this later or not now, or what

02:01:35.939 --> 02:01:38.340
is the cost benefit here? And the intelligence

02:01:38.340 --> 02:01:41.100
community goes, if you give us what we want,

02:01:41.319 --> 02:01:45.020
no one will ever know about it because it's classified.

02:01:46.340 --> 02:01:50.619
It's obviously the easy answer. And maybe Barack

02:01:50.619 --> 02:01:53.199
Obama honestly did want to get to this later.

02:01:53.460 --> 02:01:58.909
But what we can say today is... for all the good

02:01:58.909 --> 02:02:00.810
that may have been done in that White House.

02:02:00.890 --> 02:02:03.729
This is an issue where the president went through

02:02:03.729 --> 02:02:06.970
two full terms and did not fix the problem, but

02:02:06.970 --> 02:02:09.750
in fact made it worse. Well, it seems like...

02:02:10.039 --> 02:02:12.460
The president has a job that's absolutely impossible.

02:02:12.800 --> 02:02:15.159
And if you come across someone who has been in

02:02:15.159 --> 02:02:17.600
the position like someone who's the head of an

02:02:17.600 --> 02:02:20.560
intelligence agency for a long time and is very

02:02:20.560 --> 02:02:24.039
persuasive and has some legitimate credentials

02:02:24.039 --> 02:02:26.399
that show that he's very good at his job and

02:02:26.399 --> 02:02:28.380
he tells you this is important for national security,

02:02:28.600 --> 02:02:32.170
we need to keep these things in place. It doesn't

02:02:32.170 --> 02:02:35.250
seem like any one person can run the country

02:02:35.250 --> 02:02:37.869
and be aware of every single program that every

02:02:37.869 --> 02:02:40.489
single agency is implementing. It seems completely

02:02:40.489 --> 02:02:44.289
unrealistic. And the job itself, it just it doesn't

02:02:44.289 --> 02:02:46.890
seem like any person can do it adequately. And

02:02:46.890 --> 02:02:49.529
when it comes to something like this mass surveillance

02:02:49.529 --> 02:02:54.689
state, I could see a president being persuaded

02:02:54.689 --> 02:02:58.270
by someone who comes to him and says, this is

02:02:58.270 --> 02:03:03.369
why we need to do this. Yeah, I mean, one of

02:03:03.369 --> 02:03:07.449
the things that I think is the underlying problem

02:03:07.449 --> 02:03:09.649
in everything that you just described is the

02:03:09.649 --> 02:03:13.329
president has too much power. And because they

02:03:13.329 --> 02:03:14.489
have too much power, that means they have too

02:03:14.489 --> 02:03:17.449
much responsibility. And I don't think people

02:03:17.449 --> 02:03:20.710
understand, if they haven't lived outside the

02:03:20.710 --> 02:03:22.409
United States, if they haven't sort of traveled

02:03:22.409 --> 02:03:26.020
or studied broadly, just how exceptional. the

02:03:26.020 --> 02:03:29.819
American presidency is, most countries don't

02:03:29.819 --> 02:03:32.520
have a single individual with this level of power.

02:03:33.880 --> 02:03:37.439
It's really only the super states. And that may

02:03:37.439 --> 02:03:42.220
be by design, perhaps that's why they're... they're

02:03:42.220 --> 02:03:46.819
super states. But when we look at sort of complex

02:03:46.819 --> 02:03:49.779
advanced democracies that are more peaceful,

02:03:49.979 --> 02:03:52.880
they tend to have a more multilateral system

02:03:52.880 --> 02:03:56.300
that has more people involved in smaller portfolios.

02:03:56.520 --> 02:03:58.739
And a lot of this derives from just the size

02:03:58.739 --> 02:04:00.439
of the government. Like you said, you know, the

02:04:00.439 --> 02:04:02.220
president is responsible for basically everything

02:04:02.220 --> 02:04:04.079
in the executive branch, and the executive branch

02:04:04.079 --> 02:04:06.020
is basically every agency that actually doesn't

02:04:06.020 --> 02:04:12.670
work. And so how do you How do you correct for

02:04:12.670 --> 02:04:16.109
that without breaking it up where you have smaller

02:04:16.109 --> 02:04:18.010
ministers and ministries and things like that

02:04:18.010 --> 02:04:19.829
that have different levels of responsibility,

02:04:20.029 --> 02:04:22.470
having a smaller government overall? You know,

02:04:22.470 --> 02:04:27.310
back in 1776, the federal government, you know,

02:04:27.310 --> 02:04:31.470
was pretty much a dream. We weren't even interested

02:04:31.470 --> 02:04:34.170
in having standing armies. The idea of an army

02:04:34.170 --> 02:04:37.029
that existed from year to year was a terrifying,

02:04:37.210 --> 02:04:43.000
forbidding thing. And then when you move to this

02:04:43.000 --> 02:04:45.119
idea that we have a president, that they have

02:04:45.119 --> 02:04:47.460
these extraordinary powers, it's OK because the

02:04:47.460 --> 02:04:49.180
government is very small. The federal government

02:04:49.180 --> 02:04:51.220
especially is seen as sort of this small and

02:04:51.220 --> 02:04:53.460
toothless and weak thing. Can you pause for one

02:04:53.460 --> 02:04:56.140
second? Pause for one second because my AirPods

02:04:56.140 --> 02:04:58.340
are about to die and I'm going to swap over to

02:04:58.340 --> 02:05:01.079
another pair. These suckers are good for a couple

02:05:01.079 --> 02:05:03.939
of hours, but we're two hours and 15 minutes

02:05:03.939 --> 02:05:07.489
here. We'll have a little bit of a weird. audio

02:05:07.489 --> 02:05:09.869
issue with the last half of it but jamie jamie

02:05:09.869 --> 02:05:12.109
will take care of it um i wanted to talk about

02:05:12.109 --> 02:05:15.149
you like where you are right now in your life

02:05:15.149 --> 02:05:18.189
and how you're handling this because you've been

02:05:18.189 --> 02:05:21.930
in exile for how many years now uh it's been

02:05:21.930 --> 02:05:26.069
more than six years six six years of 2013 yeah

02:05:26.069 --> 02:05:29.689
i mean well actually i i left uh may so what

02:05:29.689 --> 02:05:34.140
is life like i mean Are you in constant hiding?

02:05:34.460 --> 02:05:39.539
I mean, what are the issues like? In the beginning,

02:05:39.640 --> 02:05:45.319
my operational security level, as we would call

02:05:45.319 --> 02:05:50.340
it, was very high. I was concerned about being

02:05:50.340 --> 02:05:52.060
recognized. I was concerned about being followed.

02:05:52.140 --> 02:05:55.720
I was concerned, really, about very bad things

02:05:55.720 --> 02:05:58.159
happening to me because the government made it

02:05:58.159 --> 02:06:00.000
very clear that from their position I was the

02:06:00.000 --> 02:06:03.170
most wanted man in the world. They literally

02:06:03.170 --> 02:06:07.569
brought down the president of Bolivia, his aircraft,

02:06:07.949 --> 02:06:11.350
and would not let it depart as it tried to cross

02:06:11.350 --> 02:06:13.649
the airspace of Europe, not even the United States.

02:06:15.029 --> 02:06:16.850
They wouldn't let it leave until they confirmed

02:06:16.850 --> 02:06:20.010
I was not on board. So, yeah, that made me a

02:06:20.010 --> 02:06:23.729
little bit nervous. But you can't live like that

02:06:23.729 --> 02:06:26.890
forever. And although I was as careful as I could

02:06:26.890 --> 02:06:32.000
be, I still lived pretty happily because I was

02:06:32.000 --> 02:06:34.279
an indoor cat to begin with. I've always been

02:06:34.279 --> 02:06:36.840
a technologist. I've always been pretty nerdy.

02:06:37.399 --> 02:06:39.520
So as long as I have a screen and an Internet

02:06:39.520 --> 02:06:43.760
connection, I was pretty happy. But in the years

02:06:43.760 --> 02:06:46.020
past, my life has become more and more open.

02:06:46.180 --> 02:06:49.800
Now I speak openly. I live openly. I go out.

02:06:49.819 --> 02:06:52.920
I ride the metro. I go to restaurants. How often

02:06:52.920 --> 02:06:56.600
are you recognized? So this is a funny thing

02:06:56.600 --> 02:06:59.760
is I'm almost never recognized. One of those

02:06:59.760 --> 02:07:03.399
things is I don't give Russian interviews because

02:07:03.399 --> 02:07:07.579
I don't want my face all over the news, which

02:07:07.579 --> 02:07:10.000
is nice because it just allows people to sort

02:07:10.000 --> 02:07:14.699
of forget about my face and I can go about my

02:07:14.699 --> 02:07:18.520
life. But it's one of the weird things that I'm

02:07:18.520 --> 02:07:22.619
recognized a couple times a year, even when I'm

02:07:22.619 --> 02:07:27.819
not wearing my glasses. in a museum or a grocery

02:07:27.819 --> 02:07:29.739
store or something like that or out on the street

02:07:29.739 --> 02:07:32.640
just by somebody who I swear like these people

02:07:32.640 --> 02:07:35.619
are you might have read a story about them like

02:07:35.619 --> 02:07:37.560
super recognizers the people who just have a

02:07:37.560 --> 02:07:42.720
great memory for faces because I can be like

02:07:42.720 --> 02:07:46.600
wearing a hood and like a jacket can have a scarf

02:07:46.600 --> 02:07:49.180
around my face like in the winter and like you

02:07:49.180 --> 02:07:52.119
can barely see my face and they'll come up to

02:07:52.119 --> 02:07:55.000
me and they're like are you Snowden? And I'm

02:07:55.000 --> 02:07:59.100
like, whoa. That's pretty impressive. I'd say,

02:07:59.159 --> 02:08:05.079
yeah. It's nice to meet you. And yeah, I've never

02:08:05.079 --> 02:08:08.119
had a negative interaction from being recognized.

02:08:08.199 --> 02:08:11.260
But for me, because I'm a privacy advocate, I

02:08:11.260 --> 02:08:14.439
would much rather go unrecognized. I don't want

02:08:14.439 --> 02:08:19.260
to be a celebrity. But the other thing is, I'll

02:08:19.260 --> 02:08:22.229
get recognized. In computer stores. And I think

02:08:22.229 --> 02:08:24.810
there's just like a mental association where

02:08:24.810 --> 02:08:28.670
people are like their brain, when it's cycling

02:08:28.670 --> 02:08:30.869
through faces that it recognizes, it's going

02:08:30.869 --> 02:08:32.909
through like the subset of nerdier people or

02:08:32.909 --> 02:08:34.390
something like that when you're in a computer

02:08:34.390 --> 02:08:38.029
store. Because for whatever reason, I'm recognized

02:08:38.029 --> 02:08:40.510
much more frequently when there's some kind of

02:08:40.510 --> 02:08:46.609
technological like locus. So you're living freely.

02:08:46.729 --> 02:08:50.149
You had to learn Russian? Did you learn it? Yeah,

02:08:50.210 --> 02:08:53.590
I mean, my Russian is still pretty crappy, to

02:08:53.590 --> 02:08:56.989
my great shame, because all of my life, all of

02:08:56.989 --> 02:09:00.949
my work is primarily in English. Now, you've

02:09:00.949 --> 02:09:04.170
talked about returning home if you could get

02:09:04.170 --> 02:09:10.189
a fair trial. Is that a feasible thing, a fair

02:09:10.189 --> 02:09:13.090
trial for someone like you? Is that such a— Well—

02:09:13.090 --> 02:09:15.689
Is that even possible? It's a good question.

02:09:16.779 --> 02:09:22.100
I mean, look, if we're being frank, I think all

02:09:22.100 --> 02:09:24.600
your audience knows the chance of me getting

02:09:24.600 --> 02:09:27.619
a fair shake in the eastern district of Virginia,

02:09:27.760 --> 02:09:30.159
a couple miles from the headquarters of the CIA,

02:09:30.380 --> 02:09:33.500
is probably pretty slim because that's where

02:09:33.500 --> 02:09:38.960
they draw the jury pool from. But my objection

02:09:38.960 --> 02:09:44.000
here is on a larger principle. What happens to

02:09:44.000 --> 02:09:46.140
me is less important. If I spend the rest of

02:09:46.140 --> 02:09:49.500
my life in jail, that's less important than what

02:09:49.500 --> 02:09:51.399
I'm actually requiring the government to agree

02:09:51.399 --> 02:09:54.640
to, which is a single thing. They say, face the

02:09:54.640 --> 02:09:56.159
music, face the music, and I'm saying, great,

02:09:56.439 --> 02:10:02.170
let's pick the song. The thing is... The law

02:10:02.170 --> 02:10:03.890
that I've been charged under, the one that all

02:10:03.890 --> 02:10:05.229
these whistleblowers have been charged under,

02:10:05.289 --> 02:10:08.109
Thomas Drake, Daniel Ellsberg, Chelsea Manning,

02:10:08.170 --> 02:10:10.989
Daniel Hale, the drone whistleblower who is in

02:10:10.989 --> 02:10:14.029
prison right now going through a trial that is

02:10:14.029 --> 02:10:15.789
precisely similar to what I would be facing,

02:10:15.930 --> 02:10:22.029
his lawyer is asking the court or telling the

02:10:22.029 --> 02:10:25.949
court that we want to tell the jury why he did

02:10:25.949 --> 02:10:29.170
what he did. that the government is violating

02:10:29.170 --> 02:10:31.630
laws, the government is violating human rights,

02:10:31.829 --> 02:10:34.729
that these programs are immoral, that they're

02:10:34.729 --> 02:10:39.829
unethical. This is what motivated this guy to

02:10:39.829 --> 02:10:42.989
do it, and the jury should be able to hear why

02:10:42.989 --> 02:10:44.829
he did what he did, and the jury should be able

02:10:44.829 --> 02:10:48.430
to decide whether that was right or wrong. And

02:10:48.430 --> 02:10:52.550
the government has responded to this whistleblower

02:10:52.550 --> 02:10:55.979
argument, basically, saying, We demand the court

02:10:55.979 --> 02:10:59.140
forbid this guy from breathing the word whistleblower

02:10:59.140 --> 02:11:01.819
in court. He cannot talk about what motivated

02:11:01.819 --> 02:11:04.699
him. He cannot talk about what was revealed,

02:11:04.819 --> 02:11:06.739
why it was revealed, what the impacts and effects

02:11:06.739 --> 02:11:09.279
were. He can't talk about whether the public

02:11:09.279 --> 02:11:12.260
benefited from it or was harmed by it because

02:11:12.260 --> 02:11:15.039
it doesn't matter. Now, this might surprise a

02:11:15.039 --> 02:11:16.800
lot of people because to a lot of us, we think

02:11:16.800 --> 02:11:18.420
that's what a jury trial is. We think that's

02:11:18.420 --> 02:11:22.810
what a fair trial is. But the Espionage Act that

02:11:22.810 --> 02:11:25.250
the government uses against whistleblowers, meaning

02:11:25.250 --> 02:11:30.909
broadly here the sources of journalism, is fairly

02:11:30.909 --> 02:11:33.550
unique in the legal system in that it is what's

02:11:33.550 --> 02:11:37.470
called a strict liability crime. A strict liability

02:11:37.470 --> 02:11:40.670
crime is what the government considers to be

02:11:40.670 --> 02:11:43.130
basically a crime worse than murder. Because

02:11:43.130 --> 02:11:46.449
if you murdered somebody, like if you just, I

02:11:46.449 --> 02:11:48.369
don't know, beat Jamie with the microphone stand

02:11:48.369 --> 02:11:54.050
right now, you would be able to go to the court

02:11:54.050 --> 02:11:57.250
and say it was self -defense, right? Like, you

02:11:57.250 --> 02:11:59.729
felt threatened. You were in danger for your

02:11:59.729 --> 02:12:01.569
life. Even if you weren't, right? Even if you

02:12:01.569 --> 02:12:03.789
obviously weren't. Even if you were on tape,

02:12:03.989 --> 02:12:06.710
you could still argue that. And the jury could

02:12:06.710 --> 02:12:09.109
go, you're full of crap, right? And they could

02:12:09.109 --> 02:12:12.289
convict you. But if you were, in fact, acting

02:12:12.289 --> 02:12:14.590
in self -defense, if the jury did, in fact, believe

02:12:14.590 --> 02:12:16.689
you, they could take that into consideration

02:12:16.689 --> 02:12:20.180
in establishing their verdict, right? strict

02:12:20.180 --> 02:12:23.039
liability crimes forbid that. The jury is not

02:12:23.039 --> 02:12:27.260
allowed to consider why you committed a crime.

02:12:27.819 --> 02:12:31.779
They're only allowed to consider if you committed

02:12:31.779 --> 02:12:34.300
a crime. They're not allowed to consider if the

02:12:34.300 --> 02:12:36.260
murder was justified. They're only allowed to

02:12:36.260 --> 02:12:38.359
consider if the murder took place. And the funny

02:12:38.359 --> 02:12:41.800
thing in this case is that the murder that we're

02:12:41.800 --> 02:12:45.979
talking about is telling the truth. The Espionage

02:12:45.979 --> 02:12:50.899
Act, in every case, is a law the government exclusively

02:12:50.899 --> 02:12:55.500
uses against people who told the truth. That's

02:12:55.500 --> 02:12:57.119
what it's about in the context of journalism.

02:12:57.399 --> 02:13:00.060
They don't bring the Espionage Act against people

02:13:00.060 --> 02:13:02.260
who lied, then they would use fraud or some other

02:13:02.260 --> 02:13:06.159
statute. They say, the government is arguing

02:13:06.159 --> 02:13:08.779
in the context of whistleblowing, that telling

02:13:08.779 --> 02:13:14.260
an important truth to the American people by

02:13:14.260 --> 02:13:17.079
way of a journalist is a crime worse than murder.

02:13:17.529 --> 02:13:19.770
And I believe, and I think most Americans would

02:13:19.770 --> 02:13:23.229
agree, this is fundamentally, indefensibly wrong.

02:13:23.710 --> 02:13:26.229
And so my whole argument with the United States

02:13:26.229 --> 02:13:28.229
government since the very beginning was been,

02:13:28.289 --> 02:13:31.369
I'll be back for a jury trial tomorrow, but you

02:13:31.369 --> 02:13:34.689
have to agree to permit. A whistleblower is a

02:13:34.689 --> 02:13:36.829
public interest offense. It doesn't matter whether

02:13:36.829 --> 02:13:39.210
they are a whistleblower or not. It's just they

02:13:39.210 --> 02:13:41.569
argued. It's the jury that decides whether they

02:13:41.569 --> 02:13:44.369
are a whistleblower or not. They have to be able

02:13:44.369 --> 02:13:46.350
to consider the motivations of why someone did

02:13:46.350 --> 02:13:49.369
what they did. The government says we refuse

02:13:49.369 --> 02:13:52.529
to allow that because that puts the government

02:13:52.529 --> 02:13:55.970
on trial. And we don't trust the jury to consider

02:13:55.970 --> 02:13:59.710
those questions. Wow. So you have had these conversations

02:13:59.710 --> 02:14:02.329
then. So this has been discussed. No, this is

02:14:02.329 --> 02:14:04.390
this is from the Obama administration. There's

02:14:04.390 --> 02:14:07.930
been no contact since since the Trump administration,

02:14:08.050 --> 02:14:10.949
because the government basically when they got

02:14:10.949 --> 02:14:12.989
to this point, they went, we have no good argument

02:14:12.989 --> 02:14:15.989
against this and we will never permit this to

02:14:15.989 --> 02:14:17.989
happen. And again, I just want to make clear

02:14:17.989 --> 02:14:20.829
this is not. This is not speculation. This is

02:14:20.829 --> 02:14:24.229
not me thinking. This is actively happening in

02:14:24.229 --> 02:14:26.510
the case of Daniel Hale right now. I hope you

02:14:26.510 --> 02:14:30.130
guys can pull up a graphic for it because this

02:14:30.130 --> 02:14:32.909
story just at the papers like two or three weeks

02:14:32.909 --> 02:14:35.550
ago saying the government is forbidding this

02:14:35.550 --> 02:14:39.250
guy from making this argument. So you're seemingly

02:14:39.250 --> 02:14:43.710
in a state of limbo then. They're not actively

02:14:43.710 --> 02:14:47.039
pursuing you. It seems that if you're able to

02:14:47.039 --> 02:14:49.819
move around freely, they haven't discovered where

02:14:49.819 --> 02:14:52.060
you are. You're just free to live your life.

02:14:52.840 --> 02:14:55.600
Well, yeah. I mean, it's one of these things

02:14:55.600 --> 02:14:59.119
where, you know, whether they know where I am

02:14:59.119 --> 02:15:01.300
or whether they don't know where I am, where

02:15:01.300 --> 02:15:02.640
I put my head on the pillow, it doesn't matter

02:15:02.640 --> 02:15:05.560
so much. I'm in Russia, right? And we should

02:15:05.560 --> 02:15:08.279
lean into that because I think people, they hear

02:15:08.279 --> 02:15:10.539
Russia, particularly in the context of today's

02:15:10.539 --> 02:15:12.399
news. And you see like what people are saying

02:15:12.399 --> 02:15:15.989
about Tulsi Gabbard and things like that. Any

02:15:15.989 --> 02:15:21.149
kind of association, any time your name appears

02:15:21.149 --> 02:15:23.470
in the same sentence, same paragraph, same story

02:15:23.470 --> 02:15:26.149
as the word Russia, it's considered a negative

02:15:26.149 --> 02:15:28.930
thing now. And don't get me wrong, I've been

02:15:28.930 --> 02:15:30.409
a longtime critic of the Russian government.

02:15:30.649 --> 02:15:34.329
I just actually had a major story written about

02:15:34.329 --> 02:15:38.590
me in a Russian state news outlet called RIA

02:15:38.590 --> 02:15:41.890
Novosti. You guys could probably pull it. It's

02:15:41.890 --> 02:15:45.180
only in Russian, though. That's saying because

02:15:45.180 --> 02:15:49.800
I spoke favorably about a member of the Russian

02:15:49.800 --> 02:15:55.039
opposition, Alexei Navalny, which I wasn't even

02:15:55.039 --> 02:15:57.420
speaking positively about this guy. I was saying,

02:15:57.460 --> 02:16:01.600
look, I think people have a right to express

02:16:01.600 --> 02:16:04.659
their opposition. in a country, and they should

02:16:04.659 --> 02:16:07.300
be able to do that without fearing retaliation

02:16:07.300 --> 02:16:09.600
in the future. Because the background here is

02:16:09.600 --> 02:16:13.520
this opposition figure has been a longtime thorn

02:16:13.520 --> 02:16:18.000
in the Russian administration's side. And they've

02:16:18.000 --> 02:16:22.100
just suddenly, magically been accused of being

02:16:22.100 --> 02:16:25.310
foreign agents or something like that. And so

02:16:25.310 --> 02:16:27.850
everyone connected to this, which is like a big

02:16:27.850 --> 02:16:31.050
civil society body, had their doors like simultaneously

02:16:31.050 --> 02:16:33.090
kicked in across the country and they're being

02:16:33.090 --> 02:16:34.870
investigated for some kind of corruption or something.

02:16:34.950 --> 02:16:39.010
It doesn't even matter. And, you know, I said

02:16:39.010 --> 02:16:41.170
I oppose that, just like I was tweeting, you

02:16:41.170 --> 02:16:44.590
know, footage of ballot stuffing in the Russian

02:16:44.590 --> 02:16:46.409
elections, just like I've criticized the Russian

02:16:46.409 --> 02:16:49.989
president by name. I've criticized... Russian

02:16:49.989 --> 02:16:52.870
surveillance laws, so many things again and again

02:16:52.870 --> 02:16:56.629
and again and again and again. But yeah, so look,

02:16:56.770 --> 02:17:00.870
it does not make my life easier to be trapped

02:17:00.870 --> 02:17:02.969
in a country that I did not choose. People don't

02:17:02.969 --> 02:17:04.809
remember this. I was actually en route to Latin

02:17:04.809 --> 02:17:07.569
America when the U .S. government canceled my

02:17:07.569 --> 02:17:09.569
passport, which trapped me in Russia. And for

02:17:09.569 --> 02:17:11.889
those who are interested, again, I wrote an entire

02:17:11.889 --> 02:17:17.680
book that has a lot of detail on this. Yeah,

02:17:17.700 --> 02:17:23.299
it's difficult to be basically engaged in civil

02:17:23.299 --> 02:17:26.940
opposition to policies of the United States government

02:17:26.940 --> 02:17:31.520
at the same time as the Russian government. And

02:17:31.520 --> 02:17:35.180
it's a hard thing. It's not a happy thing, but

02:17:35.180 --> 02:17:37.600
I feel like it's a necessary thing. The problem

02:17:37.600 --> 02:17:39.579
is nobody wants to talk about that. Nobody wants

02:17:39.579 --> 02:17:41.340
to engage in that kind of nuance. Nobody wants

02:17:41.340 --> 02:17:44.530
to consider those kind of conversations. in the

02:17:44.530 --> 02:17:46.889
current world. People believe, and this is actually

02:17:46.889 --> 02:17:50.569
one of the worst things that Western media does

02:17:50.569 --> 02:17:53.930
in the context of discussing Russia, is they

02:17:53.930 --> 02:17:55.930
create this aura of invincibility around the

02:17:55.930 --> 02:17:57.530
Russian president. They go, you know, this guy's

02:17:57.530 --> 02:17:59.450
calling all the shots, he's pulling all the strings,

02:17:59.690 --> 02:18:01.049
you know, this guy's in charge of the world.

02:18:02.510 --> 02:18:06.770
And that's very useful for the Russian government

02:18:06.770 --> 02:18:09.340
broadly. Because they can then take that and

02:18:09.340 --> 02:18:11.100
replay that on their domestic media and they

02:18:11.100 --> 02:18:13.059
can go, look how strong we are. You know, the

02:18:13.059 --> 02:18:14.819
Americans are afraid of us. The Chinese are afraid

02:18:14.819 --> 02:18:16.340
of us. Everybody's afraid of us. The French are

02:18:16.340 --> 02:18:21.739
afraid of us. We are strong, right? There's no

02:18:21.739 --> 02:18:24.879
question that Russia's going to be interfering

02:18:24.879 --> 02:18:27.940
in elections. There's no question that America's

02:18:27.940 --> 02:18:29.340
going to be interfering in Russian elections,

02:18:29.719 --> 02:18:31.579
right? Nobody likes to talk about this. And again,

02:18:31.639 --> 02:18:33.379
I need to substantiate that now that I've said

02:18:33.379 --> 02:18:35.799
that. I've got an old note that I've signed a

02:18:35.799 --> 02:18:41.120
billion times. The New York Times published a

02:18:41.120 --> 02:18:43.620
story in the wake of this contested 2016 election

02:18:43.620 --> 02:18:47.459
where they looked into the history of electoral

02:18:47.459 --> 02:18:50.739
interference in Russia and the Soviet Union.

02:18:51.600 --> 02:18:55.680
And they found in roughly 50 years 36 different

02:18:55.680 --> 02:18:59.159
cases of election interference by Russia or the

02:18:59.159 --> 02:19:01.100
Soviets. This is not a new thing. This is something

02:19:01.100 --> 02:19:03.389
that always happens. That's what intelligence

02:19:03.389 --> 02:19:05.989
services do. That's what they think they're being

02:19:05.989 --> 02:19:08.750
paid for, which is a sad thing, but it's a reality,

02:19:09.110 --> 02:19:12.290
because we aren't wise enough to separate covert

02:19:12.290 --> 02:19:17.129
action from intelligence gathering. But in that

02:19:17.129 --> 02:19:20.110
same study that they found 36 different cases

02:19:20.110 --> 02:19:22.809
by the Russians and the Soviets, they found 81

02:19:22.809 --> 02:19:26.790
different cases by the U .S., and this was published

02:19:26.790 --> 02:19:28.969
by Scott Chain in the New York Times and both

02:19:28.969 --> 02:19:32.579
the Washington Post as well. But this is the

02:19:32.579 --> 02:19:36.780
thing. Like, there is a way to criticize the

02:19:36.780 --> 02:19:40.520
Russian government's policies without criticizing

02:19:40.520 --> 02:19:44.760
the Russian people, who are ordinary people who

02:19:44.760 --> 02:19:46.840
just want to have a happy life. They just want

02:19:46.840 --> 02:19:48.219
to do better. They want the same things that

02:19:48.219 --> 02:19:50.700
you do, right? And every time people go, oh,

02:19:50.700 --> 02:19:52.479
Russia, Russia, Russia. Every time people go,

02:19:52.540 --> 02:19:54.299
Russia bad. Every time they go, Russia's doing

02:19:54.299 --> 02:19:56.780
this. They go, Russia's doing that. Russian people...

02:19:57.129 --> 02:19:58.930
who have nothing to do with the government feel

02:19:58.930 --> 02:20:02.969
implicated by that? Like, do you feel like you're

02:20:02.969 --> 02:20:05.049
in charge of Donald Trump? Like, do you want

02:20:05.049 --> 02:20:08.110
to have Donald Trump's legacy around your neck?

02:20:09.049 --> 02:20:11.129
And then people go, oh, well, you know, you could

02:20:11.129 --> 02:20:13.049
overthrow Donald Trump. You know, you could overthrow

02:20:13.049 --> 02:20:15.110
Putin. Can you? Really? Like, is that how it

02:20:15.110 --> 02:20:21.170
works? So, yeah, I mean, look, I have no affiliation.

02:20:21.170 --> 02:20:23.290
I have no love for the Russian government. It's

02:20:23.290 --> 02:20:26.239
not my choice to be here. And I've made it very

02:20:26.239 --> 02:20:28.139
clear I would be happy to return home. Is there

02:20:28.139 --> 02:20:31.680
any concern that they would deny you visa? I

02:20:31.680 --> 02:20:35.540
mean, how are you staying there? It's a good

02:20:35.540 --> 02:20:37.780
question. So I have a permanent residence. People

02:20:37.780 --> 02:20:39.520
think I'm under asylum, but I'm no longer under

02:20:39.520 --> 02:20:42.590
it. It's like a green card now. It's got to be

02:20:42.590 --> 02:20:45.450
renewed every three years. So, yeah, sure, it's

02:20:45.450 --> 02:20:46.909
possible they could kick me out. And this was

02:20:46.909 --> 02:20:48.709
what the story I was telling you about before

02:20:48.709 --> 02:20:50.729
in Russian media was. They were saying, you know,

02:20:50.729 --> 02:20:52.170
the Russian government should take some action

02:20:52.170 --> 02:20:54.690
against me or I shouldn't be welcome here or

02:20:54.690 --> 02:20:57.590
I should go home because why is he criticizing

02:20:57.590 --> 02:20:59.690
the Russian government, right, when they're the

02:20:59.690 --> 02:21:00.329
people who are keeping Americans away? Is that

02:21:00.329 --> 02:21:04.049
like the Russian version of Fox News? Is that

02:21:04.049 --> 02:21:05.409
what they have over there? I don't know enough

02:21:05.409 --> 02:21:08.409
about Russian media to tell you. I think it's

02:21:08.409 --> 02:21:10.370
supposed to be more like a Reuters or Associated

02:21:10.370 --> 02:21:16.450
Press, but the hell if I know. But the thing

02:21:16.450 --> 02:21:22.889
is this. What's the alternative? Yes, the Russian

02:21:22.889 --> 02:21:26.170
government could screw me. But they could screw

02:21:26.170 --> 02:21:28.989
me even if I didn't say anything. And so should

02:21:28.989 --> 02:21:31.899
I shut up and be quiet? in the face of things

02:21:31.899 --> 02:21:35.399
that I think are injustices, because it makes

02:21:35.399 --> 02:21:38.100
me safer. Well, a lot of pragmatic people will

02:21:38.100 --> 02:21:40.120
say, yeah. They say, you've done enough. They

02:21:40.120 --> 02:21:41.959
say, you've done your part. You know, they say,

02:21:42.059 --> 02:21:47.120
whatever. Be safe, live long, be happy. But I

02:21:47.120 --> 02:21:49.020
didn't come forward to be safe. If I wanted to

02:21:49.020 --> 02:21:51.620
be safe, I'd still be sitting in Hawaii, making

02:21:51.620 --> 02:21:54.020
a hell of a lot of money to spy on all of you,

02:21:54.120 --> 02:21:56.559
right? And nobody ever would have known about

02:21:56.559 --> 02:22:00.989
this. The system would have gotten worse. The

02:22:00.989 --> 02:22:05.610
world, the future gets worse every day that we

02:22:05.610 --> 02:22:07.250
don't do something about it. Every day that we

02:22:07.250 --> 02:22:09.430
stay silent about all the injustices we see,

02:22:09.549 --> 02:22:12.170
the world gets worse. Things get worse. And yeah,

02:22:12.270 --> 02:22:15.610
it's risky. Yeah, it's uncomfortable. But that's

02:22:15.610 --> 02:22:19.569
why we do it. Because if we don't, no one else

02:22:19.569 --> 02:22:22.159
will. All those years I was sitting. hoping for

02:22:22.159 --> 02:22:24.579
someone else to come forward, and no one did,

02:22:24.860 --> 02:22:26.559
right? That's because I was waiting for a hero.

02:22:26.840 --> 02:22:29.780
But there are no heroes, right? There's only

02:22:29.780 --> 02:22:32.459
heroic decisions. You are never further than

02:22:32.459 --> 02:22:34.940
one decision away from making a difference. It

02:22:34.940 --> 02:22:36.120
doesn't matter whether it's a big difference.

02:22:36.159 --> 02:22:37.500
It doesn't matter if it was a small difference

02:22:37.500 --> 02:22:40.600
because you don't have to save the world by yourself.

02:22:40.979 --> 02:22:44.020
And in fact, you can't. All you have to do is

02:22:44.020 --> 02:22:46.879
lay down one brick. All you have to do is make

02:22:46.879 --> 02:22:49.920
things a little bit better. in a small way, so

02:22:49.920 --> 02:22:51.559
that other people can lay their brick on top

02:22:51.559 --> 02:22:55.260
of that or beside that. And together, step by

02:22:55.260 --> 02:22:57.700
step, day by day, year by year, we build the

02:22:57.700 --> 02:23:00.780
foundation of something better. But yeah, it's

02:23:00.780 --> 02:23:03.680
not going to be safe, but it doesn't matter.

02:23:04.319 --> 02:23:10.620
Because individually, it's not, you know, me,

02:23:10.799 --> 02:23:14.340
whoever you are, that's the Iron Man. I don't

02:23:14.340 --> 02:23:16.379
care if you're the biggest doomsday prepper with

02:23:16.379 --> 02:23:19.600
cans full of beans. If the world ends, it's going

02:23:19.600 --> 02:23:23.340
to affect you. We make things better. We become

02:23:23.340 --> 02:23:26.959
safe together, right? Collectively, that is our

02:23:26.959 --> 02:23:28.319
strength. That is the power of civilization.

02:23:28.479 --> 02:23:31.340
That is the power that shapes the future. Because

02:23:31.340 --> 02:23:33.479
even if you make life great for you, you're going

02:23:33.479 --> 02:23:36.260
to die someday. You're going to be forgotten

02:23:36.260 --> 02:23:39.879
someday. Your cans of beans are going to rot

02:23:39.879 --> 02:23:45.219
someday. You can make things safe. You can be

02:23:45.219 --> 02:23:47.860
more careful, right? You can be more clever,

02:23:47.899 --> 02:23:50.299
and there's nothing wrong with that. But at the

02:23:50.299 --> 02:23:52.180
end of the day, you have to recognize if you're

02:23:52.180 --> 02:23:54.739
trying to eliminate all risks from your life,

02:23:54.860 --> 02:23:57.780
what you're actually doing is eliminating all

02:23:57.780 --> 02:24:00.559
possibility from your life. You're trying to

02:24:00.559 --> 02:24:04.879
collapse the universe of outcomes. such that

02:24:04.879 --> 02:24:07.659
what you've lost is freedom. You've lost the

02:24:07.659 --> 02:24:09.840
ability to act because you were afraid. That's

02:24:09.840 --> 02:24:10.579
a beautiful way to put it. And that's what got

02:24:10.579 --> 02:24:12.540
us into this mess. That's a beautiful way to

02:24:12.540 --> 02:24:16.819
put it. Are you aware at all of the current state

02:24:16.819 --> 02:24:20.020
of surveillance and what, if anything, has changed

02:24:20.020 --> 02:24:24.260
since your revelations? Yeah, I mean, the big

02:24:24.260 --> 02:24:31.760
thing that's changed since I was in 2013 is now

02:24:31.760 --> 02:24:36.579
it's mobile first everything. Mobile was still

02:24:36.579 --> 02:24:40.239
a big deal, right? And the intelligence community

02:24:40.239 --> 02:24:44.059
was very much grappling to get its hands around

02:24:44.059 --> 02:24:47.440
it and to deal with it. But now people are much

02:24:47.440 --> 02:24:50.159
less likely to use a laptop than use a desktop

02:24:50.159 --> 02:24:54.040
than use, you know, God, any kind of wired phone

02:24:54.040 --> 02:24:59.100
than they are to use a smartphone. And both Apple

02:24:59.100 --> 02:25:03.500
and Android devices, unfortunately. are not especially

02:25:03.500 --> 02:25:06.379
good in protecting your privacy. Think right

02:25:06.379 --> 02:25:11.760
now. You got a smartphone, right? You might be

02:25:11.760 --> 02:25:15.219
listening to this on a train somewhere in traffic

02:25:15.219 --> 02:25:18.399
right now. Or you, Joe, right now. You got a

02:25:18.399 --> 02:25:22.079
phone somewhere in the room, right? The phone

02:25:22.079 --> 02:25:24.760
is turned off, or at least the screen is turned

02:25:24.760 --> 02:25:28.639
off. It's sitting there. It's powered on. And

02:25:28.639 --> 02:25:31.459
if somebody sends you a message, The screen blinks

02:25:31.459 --> 02:25:38.020
to life. How does that happen? How is it that

02:25:38.020 --> 02:25:40.459
if someone from any corner of the earth dials

02:25:40.459 --> 02:25:42.500
a number, your phone rings and nobody else's

02:25:42.500 --> 02:25:44.659
rings? How is it that you can dial anybody else's

02:25:44.659 --> 02:25:47.500
number and only their phone rings, right? Every

02:25:47.500 --> 02:25:51.459
smartphone, every phone at all, is constantly

02:25:51.459 --> 02:25:54.969
connected to the nearest cellular tower. Every

02:25:54.969 --> 02:25:57.569
phone, even when the screen is off, you think

02:25:57.569 --> 02:25:59.250
it's doing nothing. You can't see it because

02:25:59.250 --> 02:26:02.870
radio frequency emissions are invisible. It's

02:26:02.870 --> 02:26:05.969
screaming in the air, saying, here I am, here

02:26:05.969 --> 02:26:10.870
I am. Here is my IMEI. I think it's individual

02:26:10.870 --> 02:26:15.329
manufacturer's equipment identity. And IMEI,

02:26:15.489 --> 02:26:19.430
individual manufacturer's subscriber identity.

02:26:19.969 --> 02:26:22.389
I could be wrong on the breakout there, but the

02:26:22.389 --> 02:26:25.969
acronyms are... The IMEI and the IMSI, and you

02:26:25.969 --> 02:26:28.389
can search for these things. They're two globally

02:26:28.389 --> 02:26:32.270
unique identifiers that only exist anywhere in

02:26:32.270 --> 02:26:35.729
the world in one place, right? This makes your

02:26:35.729 --> 02:26:38.090
phone different than all the other phones. The

02:26:38.090 --> 02:26:40.489
IMEI is burned into the handset of your phone.

02:26:40.549 --> 02:26:43.829
No matter what SIM card you change to, it's always

02:26:43.829 --> 02:26:45.309
going to be the same, and it's always going to

02:26:45.309 --> 02:26:47.149
be telling the phone network it's this physical

02:26:47.149 --> 02:26:52.629
handset. The IMSI. is in your SIM card, right?

02:26:52.690 --> 02:26:54.270
And this is what holds your phone number, right?

02:26:54.350 --> 02:26:56.389
It's basically the key, the right to use that

02:26:56.389 --> 02:26:59.030
phone number. And so your phone is sitting there

02:26:59.030 --> 02:27:02.329
doing nothing, you think, but it's constantly

02:27:02.329 --> 02:27:05.170
shouting and saying, I'm here. Who is closest

02:27:05.170 --> 02:27:08.309
to me? That's the cell phone tower. And every

02:27:08.309 --> 02:27:11.530
cell phone tower with its big ears is listening

02:27:11.530 --> 02:27:14.290
for these little cries for help and going, all

02:27:14.290 --> 02:27:18.149
right. I see Joe Rogan's phone. I see Jamie's

02:27:18.149 --> 02:27:21.170
phone. I see all these phones that are here right

02:27:21.170 --> 02:27:27.149
now. And it compares notes with the other network

02:27:27.149 --> 02:27:29.350
towers. And your smartphone compares notes with

02:27:29.350 --> 02:27:33.549
them to go, who do I hear the loudest? And who

02:27:33.549 --> 02:27:38.030
you hear the loudest is a proxy for proximity,

02:27:38.229 --> 02:27:41.159
for closeness, distance, right? They go, whoever

02:27:41.159 --> 02:27:43.600
I hear more loudly than anybody else, that's

02:27:43.600 --> 02:27:45.719
close to me. So you're going to be bound to this

02:27:45.719 --> 02:27:47.540
cell phone tower, and that cell phone tower is

02:27:47.540 --> 02:27:50.639
going to make a note, a permanent record, saying

02:27:50.639 --> 02:27:56.639
this phone handset with this phone number at

02:27:56.639 --> 02:28:00.219
this time was connected to me, right? And based

02:28:00.219 --> 02:28:02.299
on your phone handset and your phone number,

02:28:02.399 --> 02:28:07.000
they can get your identity, right? Because you

02:28:07.000 --> 02:28:08.459
pay for this stuff with your credit card and

02:28:08.459 --> 02:28:11.329
everything like that. And even if you don't,

02:28:11.329 --> 02:28:14.750
it's still active at your house overnight. It's

02:28:14.750 --> 02:28:16.790
still active on your nightstand when you're sleeping.

02:28:16.870 --> 02:28:20.629
It's still whatever. The movements of your phone

02:28:20.629 --> 02:28:22.409
are the movements of you as a person, and those

02:28:22.409 --> 02:28:25.649
are often quite uniquely identifying. It goes

02:28:25.649 --> 02:28:28.450
to your home. It goes to your workplace. Other

02:28:28.450 --> 02:28:33.290
people don't have it. Sorry. And anyway, it's

02:28:33.290 --> 02:28:34.809
constantly shouting this out, and then it compares

02:28:34.809 --> 02:28:37.209
notes with the other parts of the network. And

02:28:37.209 --> 02:28:39.979
when somebody is trying to get to a phone, It

02:28:39.979 --> 02:28:42.479
compares notes, the network compares notes to

02:28:42.479 --> 02:28:45.059
go, where is this phone with this phone number

02:28:45.059 --> 02:28:49.239
in the world right now? And to that cell phone

02:28:49.239 --> 02:28:52.239
tower that is closest to that phone, it sends

02:28:52.239 --> 02:28:54.600
out a signal saying, we have a call for you.

02:28:54.979 --> 02:28:57.920
Make your phone start ringing so your owner can

02:28:57.920 --> 02:28:59.799
answer it. And then it connects it across this

02:28:59.799 --> 02:29:02.340
whole path. But what this means is that whenever

02:29:02.340 --> 02:29:03.819
you're carrying a phone, whenever the phone is

02:29:03.819 --> 02:29:06.870
turned on, There is a record of your presence

02:29:06.870 --> 02:29:09.489
at that place that is being made and created

02:29:09.489 --> 02:29:12.969
by companies. It does not need to be kept forever.

02:29:13.129 --> 02:29:14.909
And in fact, there's no good argument for it

02:29:14.909 --> 02:29:17.110
to be kept forever. But these companies see that

02:29:17.110 --> 02:29:19.409
as valuable information, right? This is the whole

02:29:19.409 --> 02:29:21.530
big data problem that we're running into. And

02:29:21.530 --> 02:29:24.329
all this information that used to be ephemeral,

02:29:24.370 --> 02:29:26.430
right? Where were you when you were eight years

02:29:26.430 --> 02:29:29.829
old, you know? Where'd you go after you had a

02:29:29.829 --> 02:29:32.190
bad breakup? Who'd you spend the night with?

02:29:32.229 --> 02:29:34.530
Who'd you call after? All this information used

02:29:34.530 --> 02:29:37.350
to be ephemeral, meaning it disappeared, right?

02:29:37.430 --> 02:29:40.610
Like the morning dew, it would be gone. No one

02:29:40.610 --> 02:29:42.829
would remember it. But now these things are stored.

02:29:43.010 --> 02:29:45.370
Now these things are saved. It doesn't matter

02:29:45.370 --> 02:29:47.049
whether you're doing anything wrong. It doesn't

02:29:47.049 --> 02:29:48.569
matter whether you're the most ordinary person

02:29:48.569 --> 02:29:52.590
on earth, because that's how bulk collection,

02:29:52.909 --> 02:29:54.829
which is the government's euphemism for mass

02:29:54.829 --> 02:29:58.489
surveillance, They simply collect it all in advance

02:29:58.489 --> 02:30:00.610
in hopes that one day it will become useful.

02:30:00.770 --> 02:30:05.469
And that was just talking about how you connect

02:30:05.469 --> 02:30:07.670
to the phone network. That's not talking about

02:30:07.670 --> 02:30:10.690
all those apps on your phone that are contacting

02:30:10.690 --> 02:30:15.170
the network even more frequently, right? How

02:30:15.170 --> 02:30:16.870
do you get a text message notification? How do

02:30:16.870 --> 02:30:18.950
you get an email notification? How is it that

02:30:18.950 --> 02:30:21.010
Facebook knows where you're at? You know, all

02:30:21.010 --> 02:30:25.680
of these things, these analytics. They are trying

02:30:25.680 --> 02:30:27.520
to keep track through location services on your

02:30:27.520 --> 02:30:30.079
phone, through GPS, through even just what wireless

02:30:30.079 --> 02:30:32.420
access points you're connected to because there's

02:30:32.420 --> 02:30:34.620
a global constantly updated map. There's actually

02:30:34.620 --> 02:30:37.239
many of them of wireless access points in the

02:30:37.239 --> 02:30:38.819
world because just like we talked about, every

02:30:38.819 --> 02:30:40.760
phone has a unique identifier that's globally

02:30:40.760 --> 02:30:44.000
unique. Every wireless access point in the world,

02:30:44.100 --> 02:30:46.899
right? Your cable modem at home, whether it's

02:30:46.899 --> 02:30:48.959
in your laptop, every device that has a radio

02:30:48.959 --> 02:30:53.200
modem has a globally unique identifier in it.

02:30:54.430 --> 02:30:56.590
And this is standard term. You can look it up.

02:30:57.129 --> 02:31:00.149
And these things can be mapped when they're broadcasting

02:31:00.149 --> 02:31:03.190
in the air. Because again, like your phone says

02:31:03.190 --> 02:31:05.809
to the cell phone tower, I have this identifier.

02:31:06.010 --> 02:31:08.649
The cell phone tower responds and says, I have

02:31:08.649 --> 02:31:10.329
this identifier. And anybody who's listening,

02:31:10.510 --> 02:31:13.549
they can write these things down. And all those

02:31:13.549 --> 02:31:15.770
Google Street View cars that go back and forth,

02:31:15.870 --> 02:31:19.649
right? They're keeping notes on whose Wi -Fi

02:31:19.649 --> 02:31:22.969
is active on this block. And then they build

02:31:22.969 --> 02:31:25.370
a new giant map. So even if you have GPS turned

02:31:25.370 --> 02:31:29.930
off, as long as you're connected to Wi -Fi, those

02:31:29.930 --> 02:31:32.870
apps can go, well, I'm connected to Joe's Wi

02:31:32.870 --> 02:31:35.950
-Fi, but I can also see his neighbor's Wi -Fi

02:31:35.950 --> 02:31:38.010
here and the other one in this apartment over

02:31:38.010 --> 02:31:39.389
here and the other one in the apartment here.

02:31:39.770 --> 02:31:44.190
And you should only be able to hear those four

02:31:44.190 --> 02:31:48.000
globally unique Wi -Fi access points. from these

02:31:48.000 --> 02:31:50.719
points in physical space, right? The intersection

02:31:50.719 --> 02:31:54.440
in between the spreads, the domes of all those

02:31:54.440 --> 02:31:56.879
wireless access points. And it's a proxy for

02:31:56.879 --> 02:31:59.379
location. And it just goes on and on and on.

02:31:59.420 --> 02:32:00.799
We could talk about this for four more hours.

02:32:00.860 --> 02:32:02.459
We don't have that kind of time. Can I ask you

02:32:02.459 --> 02:32:04.479
this? Is there a way to mitigate any of this

02:32:04.479 --> 02:32:08.379
personally? I mean, shutting your phone off doesn't

02:32:08.379 --> 02:32:12.579
even work, right? Well, so it does in a way.

02:32:12.579 --> 02:32:14.340
It's yes and no. The thing with shutting your

02:32:14.340 --> 02:32:16.420
phone off that is a risk is... How do you know

02:32:16.420 --> 02:32:19.639
your phone's actually turned off? It used to

02:32:19.639 --> 02:32:22.680
be, when I was in Geneva, for example, working

02:32:22.680 --> 02:32:28.020
for the CIA, we would all carry, like, drug dealer

02:32:28.020 --> 02:32:32.360
phones. You know, the old smartphones, or sorry,

02:32:32.459 --> 02:32:35.059
old dumb phones, they're not smartphones. And

02:32:35.059 --> 02:32:38.420
the reason why was just because they had removable

02:32:38.420 --> 02:32:41.379
backs where you could take the battery out, right?

02:32:42.270 --> 02:32:44.889
The one beautiful thing about technology is if

02:32:44.889 --> 02:32:47.010
there's no electricity in it, right? If there's

02:32:47.010 --> 02:32:50.129
no go juice available to it, if there's no battery

02:32:50.129 --> 02:32:52.450
connected to it, it's not sending anything because

02:32:52.450 --> 02:32:54.530
you have to get power from somewhere. You have

02:32:54.530 --> 02:32:59.770
to have power in order to do work. But now your

02:32:59.770 --> 02:33:01.290
phones are all sealed, right? You can't take

02:33:01.290 --> 02:33:05.270
the batteries out. There are potential ways that

02:33:05.270 --> 02:33:07.370
you can hack a phone where it appears to be off,

02:33:07.430 --> 02:33:09.709
but it's not actually off. It's just pretending

02:33:09.709 --> 02:33:11.870
to be off, whereas in fact, it's still listening

02:33:11.870 --> 02:33:14.010
in and doing all this stuff. But for the average

02:33:14.010 --> 02:33:17.190
person, that doesn't apply, right? And I got

02:33:17.190 --> 02:33:19.389
to tell you guys, they've been chasing me all

02:33:19.389 --> 02:33:22.329
over the place. I don't worry about that stuff,

02:33:22.489 --> 02:33:25.530
right? And it's because if they're applying that

02:33:25.530 --> 02:33:28.629
level of effort to me, they'll probably get the

02:33:28.629 --> 02:33:32.030
same information through other routes. I am as

02:33:32.030 --> 02:33:34.870
careful as I can, and I use things like Faraday

02:33:34.870 --> 02:33:37.530
cages. I turn devices off. But if they're actually

02:33:37.530 --> 02:33:42.389
manipulating the way devices display, it's just

02:33:42.389 --> 02:33:44.309
too great a level of effort, even for someone

02:33:44.309 --> 02:33:46.370
like me, to keep that up on a constant basis.

02:33:46.450 --> 02:33:50.790
Also, if they get me, I only trust phones so

02:33:50.790 --> 02:33:53.049
much. So there's only so much they can derive

02:33:53.049 --> 02:33:55.190
from the compromise. And this is how operational

02:33:55.190 --> 02:33:58.989
security works. You think about what are the

02:33:58.989 --> 02:34:01.530
realistic threats that you're facing that you're

02:34:01.530 --> 02:34:04.850
trying to mitigate. And the mitigation that you're

02:34:04.850 --> 02:34:07.909
trying to do is what would be the loss, what

02:34:07.909 --> 02:34:10.889
would be the damage done to you if this stuff

02:34:10.889 --> 02:34:14.209
was exploited. Much more realistic than worrying

02:34:14.209 --> 02:34:16.209
about these things that I call voodoo hacks,

02:34:16.469 --> 02:34:18.909
right, which are like next level stuff. And actually,

02:34:18.909 --> 02:34:21.569
just a shout out for those of your readers who

02:34:21.569 --> 02:34:24.690
are interested in this stuff. I wrote a paper.

02:34:25.360 --> 02:34:27.379
On this specific problem, how do you know when

02:34:27.379 --> 02:34:29.180
a phone is actually off? How do you know when

02:34:29.180 --> 02:34:32.139
it's actually not spying on you? With a brilliant,

02:34:32.319 --> 02:34:35.540
brilliant guy named Andrew Bunny Huang. He's

02:34:35.540 --> 02:34:38.440
an MIT PhD in, I think, electrical engineering.

02:34:40.559 --> 02:34:43.879
Called the Introspection Engine. It was published

02:34:43.879 --> 02:34:46.139
in the Journal of Open Engineering. You can find

02:34:46.139 --> 02:34:49.940
it online. And it'll go as deep down in the weeds,

02:34:50.020 --> 02:34:52.159
I promise you, as you want. We take an iPhone

02:34:52.159 --> 02:34:55.739
6, this was back when it was fairly new, and

02:34:55.739 --> 02:34:59.020
we modified it so we could actually not trust

02:34:59.020 --> 02:35:01.719
the device to report its own state, but physically

02:35:01.719 --> 02:35:03.280
monitor its state to see if it was spying on

02:35:03.280 --> 02:35:07.159
you. But for average people, right, this academic...

02:35:08.500 --> 02:35:11.040
That's not your primary threat. Your primary

02:35:11.040 --> 02:35:14.079
threats are these bulk collection programs. Your

02:35:14.079 --> 02:35:16.799
primary threat is the fact that your phone is

02:35:16.799 --> 02:35:19.180
constantly squawking to these cell phone towers.

02:35:19.219 --> 02:35:21.520
It's doing all of these things because we leave

02:35:21.520 --> 02:35:23.639
our phones in a state that is constantly on.

02:35:24.059 --> 02:35:26.940
You're constantly connected, right? Airplane

02:35:26.940 --> 02:35:29.959
mode doesn't even turn off Wi -Fi really anymore.

02:35:30.040 --> 02:35:33.579
It just turns off the cellular modem. But the

02:35:33.579 --> 02:35:37.129
whole idea is... We need to identify the problem.

02:35:37.670 --> 02:35:40.090
And the central problem with smartphone use today

02:35:40.090 --> 02:35:42.790
is you have no idea what the hell it's doing

02:35:42.790 --> 02:35:45.190
at any given time. Like, the phone has the screen

02:35:45.190 --> 02:35:47.370
off. You don't know what it's connected to. You

02:35:47.370 --> 02:35:49.530
don't know how frequently it's doing it. Apple

02:35:49.530 --> 02:35:52.430
and iOS, unfortunately, makes it impossible to

02:35:52.430 --> 02:35:55.049
see what kind of network connections are constantly

02:35:55.049 --> 02:35:57.209
made on the device and to intermediate them,

02:35:57.309 --> 02:35:59.610
going, I don't want Facebook to be able to talk

02:35:59.610 --> 02:36:01.620
right now. I don't want Google to be able to

02:36:01.620 --> 02:36:04.700
talk right now. I just want my secure messenger

02:36:04.700 --> 02:36:07.860
app to be able to talk. I just want my weather

02:36:07.860 --> 02:36:09.920
app to be able to talk. But I just checked my

02:36:09.920 --> 02:36:12.379
weather, and now I'm done with it, so I don't

02:36:12.379 --> 02:36:14.120
want that to be able to talk anymore. And we

02:36:14.120 --> 02:36:16.440
need to be able to make these intelligent decisions

02:36:16.440 --> 02:36:19.899
on not just an app -by -app basis, but a connection

02:36:19.899 --> 02:36:23.260
-by -connection basis, right? You want, let's

02:36:23.260 --> 02:36:27.260
say you use Facebook, because, you know, for

02:36:27.260 --> 02:36:28.879
whatever judgment we have, a lot of people might

02:36:28.879 --> 02:36:32.719
do it. You want it to be able to connect to Facebook's

02:36:32.719 --> 02:36:35.879
content servers. You want to be able to message

02:36:35.879 --> 02:36:38.159
a friend. You want to be able to download a photograph

02:36:38.159 --> 02:36:39.899
or whatever. But you don't want it to be able

02:36:39.899 --> 02:36:42.040
to talk to an ad server. You don't want it to

02:36:42.040 --> 02:36:44.120
talk to an analytics server that's monitoring

02:36:44.120 --> 02:36:45.920
your behavior. You don't want it to talk to all

02:36:45.920 --> 02:36:47.920
these third -party things because Facebook crams

02:36:47.920 --> 02:36:50.719
their garbage into almost every app that you

02:36:50.719 --> 02:36:52.680
download. And you don't even know it's happening

02:36:52.680 --> 02:36:55.700
because you can't see it. And this is the problem

02:36:55.700 --> 02:36:59.110
with the data collection used today. is there

02:36:59.110 --> 02:37:01.569
is an industry that is built on keeping this

02:37:01.569 --> 02:37:04.350
invisible. And what we need to do is we need

02:37:04.350 --> 02:37:08.569
to make the activities of our devices, whether

02:37:08.569 --> 02:37:10.010
it's a phone, whether it's a computer, whatever,

02:37:10.290 --> 02:37:14.250
more visible and understandable to the average

02:37:14.250 --> 02:37:16.270
person and then give them control over it. So,

02:37:16.290 --> 02:37:17.950
like, if you could see your phone right now,

02:37:18.030 --> 02:37:20.489
and at the very center of it is a little green

02:37:20.489 --> 02:37:23.430
icon that's your, you know, handset or it's a

02:37:23.430 --> 02:37:25.629
picture of your face, whatever, and then you

02:37:25.629 --> 02:37:28.209
see all these little spokes. coming off of it.

02:37:28.469 --> 02:37:31.010
That's every app that your phone is talking to

02:37:31.010 --> 02:37:34.170
right now, or every app that is active on your

02:37:34.170 --> 02:37:36.430
phone right now, and all the hosts that it's

02:37:36.430 --> 02:37:39.010
connecting to. And you can see right now, once

02:37:39.010 --> 02:37:41.850
every three seconds, your phone is checking into

02:37:41.850 --> 02:37:45.030
Facebook, and you can just poke that app, and

02:37:45.030 --> 02:37:46.649
then boom, it's not talking to Facebook anymore.

02:37:46.729 --> 02:37:48.750
Facebook's not allowed. Facebook's speaking privileges

02:37:48.750 --> 02:37:51.809
have been revoked, right? You would do that.

02:37:52.030 --> 02:37:54.270
We would all do that. If there was a button on

02:37:54.270 --> 02:37:57.450
your phone that said, do what I want, but not

02:37:57.450 --> 02:38:00.010
spy on me, you would press that button, right?

02:38:01.110 --> 02:38:04.629
That button does not exist right now. And both

02:38:04.629 --> 02:38:06.709
Google and Apple, unfortunately, Apple's a lot

02:38:06.709 --> 02:38:11.229
better at this than Google. But neither of them

02:38:11.229 --> 02:38:14.530
allow that button to exist. In fact, they actively

02:38:14.530 --> 02:38:16.250
interfere with it because they say it's a security

02:38:16.250 --> 02:38:19.190
risk. And from a particular perspective, they

02:38:19.190 --> 02:38:22.770
actually aren't wrong there. But it's not enough

02:38:22.770 --> 02:38:25.770
to go, you know, we have to lock that capability

02:38:25.770 --> 02:38:28.010
off from people because we don't trust they would

02:38:28.010 --> 02:38:30.430
make the right decisions. We think it's too complicated

02:38:30.430 --> 02:38:32.610
for people to do this. We think there's too many

02:38:32.610 --> 02:38:35.969
connections being made. Well, that is actually

02:38:35.969 --> 02:38:39.069
a confession of the problem right there. If you

02:38:39.069 --> 02:38:41.129
think people can't understand it, if you think

02:38:41.129 --> 02:38:42.809
there are too many communications happening,

02:38:42.870 --> 02:38:44.510
if you think there's too much complexity in there,

02:38:44.590 --> 02:38:48.260
it needs to be simplified. Just like the president

02:38:48.260 --> 02:38:50.299
can't control everything like that, if you have

02:38:50.299 --> 02:38:52.239
to be the president of the phone, and the phone

02:38:52.239 --> 02:38:53.959
is as complex as the United States government,

02:38:54.120 --> 02:38:56.940
we have a problem, guys. This should be a much

02:38:56.940 --> 02:38:59.579
more simple process. It should be obvious. And

02:38:59.579 --> 02:39:01.620
the fact that it's not, and the fact that we

02:39:01.620 --> 02:39:04.280
read story after story, year after year, saying

02:39:04.280 --> 02:39:07.059
all your data's been breached here, this company's

02:39:07.059 --> 02:39:09.299
spying on you here, this company's manipulating

02:39:09.299 --> 02:39:12.959
your purchases, or your search results, or they're

02:39:12.959 --> 02:39:16.250
hiding these things from your timeline. Or they're

02:39:16.250 --> 02:39:18.670
influencing you or manipulating you in all of

02:39:18.670 --> 02:39:22.590
these different ways. That happens as a result

02:39:22.590 --> 02:39:28.229
of a single problem. And that problem is an inequality

02:39:28.229 --> 02:39:32.129
of available information. They can see everything

02:39:32.129 --> 02:39:33.969
about you. They can see everything about what

02:39:33.969 --> 02:39:35.350
your device is doing. And they can do whatever

02:39:35.350 --> 02:39:37.409
they want with your device. You, on the other

02:39:37.409 --> 02:39:41.629
hand, owned the device. Well, rather, you paid

02:39:41.629 --> 02:39:44.840
for the device. But increasingly these corporations

02:39:44.840 --> 02:39:47.399
own it. Increasingly these governments own it.

02:39:47.440 --> 02:39:49.780
And increasingly we are living in a world where

02:39:49.780 --> 02:39:53.219
we do all the work, right? We pay all the taxes.

02:39:53.299 --> 02:39:58.459
We pay all the costs. But we own less and less.

02:39:58.659 --> 02:40:00.760
And nobody understands this better than the youngest

02:40:00.760 --> 02:40:03.200
generation. Well, it seems like our data became

02:40:03.200 --> 02:40:05.879
a commodity before we understood what it was.

02:40:06.079 --> 02:40:09.159
It became this thing that's insanely valuable

02:40:09.159 --> 02:40:11.600
to Google and Facebook and all these social media

02:40:11.600 --> 02:40:14.360
platforms. Before we understood what we were

02:40:14.360 --> 02:40:16.620
giving up, they were making billions of dollars.

02:40:16.819 --> 02:40:20.200
And then once that money is being earned and

02:40:20.200 --> 02:40:21.920
once everyone's accustomed to the situation,

02:40:22.200 --> 02:40:24.700
it's very difficult to pull the reins back. It's

02:40:24.700 --> 02:40:28.299
very difficult to turn that horse around. Precisely

02:40:28.299 --> 02:40:31.100
because the money then becomes power. The information

02:40:31.100 --> 02:40:33.500
then becomes influence. That also seems to be

02:40:33.500 --> 02:40:35.100
the same sort of situation that would happen

02:40:35.100 --> 02:40:37.420
with these mass surveillance states. Once they

02:40:37.420 --> 02:40:40.000
have the access, it's going to be incredibly

02:40:40.000 --> 02:40:43.860
difficult for them to relinquish that. Right,

02:40:43.879 --> 02:40:46.639
yeah, no, you're exactly correct. And this is

02:40:46.639 --> 02:40:49.219
the subject of the book. I mean, this is the

02:40:49.219 --> 02:40:50.979
permanent record, and this is where it came from.

02:40:51.000 --> 02:40:54.940
This is how it came to exist. The story of our

02:40:54.940 --> 02:41:01.579
lifetimes is how intentionally, by design, a

02:41:01.579 --> 02:41:04.959
number of institutions, both governmental and

02:41:04.959 --> 02:41:08.020
corporate, realized it was in their mutual interest

02:41:08.020 --> 02:41:11.079
to conceal their data collection activities.

02:41:11.979 --> 02:41:16.379
to increase the breadth and depth of their sensor

02:41:16.379 --> 02:41:18.600
networks that were sort of spread out through

02:41:18.600 --> 02:41:21.020
society. Remember, back in the day, intelligence

02:41:21.020 --> 02:41:23.979
collection in the United States, even at SIGINT,

02:41:24.059 --> 02:41:27.500
used to mean sending an FBI agent, right, to

02:41:27.500 --> 02:41:29.860
put alligator clips on an embassy building, or

02:41:29.860 --> 02:41:33.840
sending in somebody disguised as a workman, and

02:41:33.840 --> 02:41:36.979
they put a bug in a building, or they built a

02:41:36.979 --> 02:41:40.260
satellite listening site, right? We called these

02:41:40.260 --> 02:41:44.219
foreign satellite collection. We're out in the

02:41:44.219 --> 02:41:47.020
desert somewhere. They built a big parabolic

02:41:47.020 --> 02:41:50.280
collector, and it's just listening to satellite

02:41:50.280 --> 02:41:53.340
emissions, right? But these satellite emissions,

02:41:53.540 --> 02:41:56.780
these satellite links, were owned by militaries.

02:41:56.780 --> 02:41:58.899
They were exclusive to governments, right? It

02:41:58.899 --> 02:42:02.639
wasn't affecting everybody broadly. All surveillance

02:42:02.639 --> 02:42:06.879
was targeted because it had to be. What changed

02:42:06.879 --> 02:42:09.260
with technology is that surveillance could now

02:42:09.260 --> 02:42:12.799
become indiscriminate. It could become dragnet.

02:42:12.819 --> 02:42:16.159
It could become bulk collection, which should

02:42:16.159 --> 02:42:18.239
become one of the dirtiest phrases in the language,

02:42:18.420 --> 02:42:22.840
if we have any kind of decency. But we were intentionally,

02:42:23.280 --> 02:42:27.079
this was intentionally concealed from us, right?

02:42:27.440 --> 02:42:29.280
The government did it. They used classification.

02:42:30.670 --> 02:42:33.069
Companies did it. They intentionally didn't talk

02:42:33.069 --> 02:42:35.549
about it. They denied these things were going.

02:42:35.709 --> 02:42:39.010
They said, you agreed to this, and you didn't

02:42:39.010 --> 02:42:41.569
agree to nothing like this. I'm sorry, right?

02:42:41.729 --> 02:42:44.270
They go, we put that terms of service page up,

02:42:44.350 --> 02:42:47.090
and you clicked that. You clicked a button that

02:42:47.090 --> 02:42:49.809
said, I agree. because you were trying to open

02:42:49.809 --> 02:42:52.110
an account so you could talk to your friends.

02:42:52.409 --> 02:42:54.409
You were trying to get driving directions. You

02:42:54.409 --> 02:42:56.250
were trying to get an email account. You weren't

02:42:56.250 --> 02:42:58.649
trying to agree to some 600 -page legal form

02:42:58.649 --> 02:43:01.430
that even if you read, you wouldn't understand.

02:43:01.809 --> 02:43:03.770
And it doesn't matter even if you did understand,

02:43:03.870 --> 02:43:05.850
because one of the very first paragraphs in it

02:43:05.850 --> 02:43:08.389
said, this agreement can be changed at any time

02:43:08.389 --> 02:43:11.129
unilaterally without your consent by the company,

02:43:11.290 --> 02:43:16.379
right? They have built a legal paradigm that

02:43:16.379 --> 02:43:21.079
presumes records collected about us do not belong

02:43:21.079 --> 02:43:25.360
to us. This is sort of one of the core principles

02:43:25.360 --> 02:43:28.000
on which mass surveillance, from the government's

02:43:28.000 --> 02:43:30.559
perspective in the United States, is legal. And

02:43:30.559 --> 02:43:31.860
you have to understand that all the stuff we

02:43:31.860 --> 02:43:33.680
talked about today, the government says everything

02:43:33.680 --> 02:43:35.940
they do is legal, right? And they go, so it's

02:43:35.940 --> 02:43:38.899
fine. Our perspective as a public should be...

02:43:39.159 --> 02:43:41.680
Well, that's actually the problem, because this

02:43:41.680 --> 02:43:44.540
isn't okay. The scandal isn't how they're breaking

02:43:44.540 --> 02:43:47.079
the law. The scandal is that they don't have

02:43:47.079 --> 02:43:50.540
to break the law. And the way they say they're

02:43:50.540 --> 02:43:51.719
not breaking the law is something called the

02:43:51.719 --> 02:43:54.399
third -party doctrine. The third -party doctrine

02:43:54.399 --> 02:44:00.219
is a legal principle derived from a case in,

02:44:00.239 --> 02:44:03.340
I believe, the 1970s called Smith v. Maryland.

02:44:05.520 --> 02:44:09.000
And Smith was this knucklehead who was harassing

02:44:09.000 --> 02:44:12.860
this lady, making phone calls to her house. And

02:44:12.860 --> 02:44:14.819
when she would pick up, he'd just, I don't know,

02:44:14.840 --> 02:44:17.180
sit there heavy breathing, whatever, like a classic

02:44:17.180 --> 02:44:20.819
creeper. And, you know, it was terrifying, this

02:44:20.819 --> 02:44:25.219
poor lady. So she calls the cops and says, one

02:44:25.219 --> 02:44:26.920
day I got one of these phone calls, and then

02:44:26.920 --> 02:44:29.579
I see this car creeping past my house on the

02:44:29.579 --> 02:44:32.920
street, and she got a license plate number. So

02:44:32.920 --> 02:44:34.600
she goes to the cops and she goes, is this the

02:44:34.600 --> 02:44:38.139
guy? And the cops, again, they're trying to do

02:44:38.139 --> 02:44:42.459
a good thing here. They look up his license plate

02:44:42.459 --> 02:44:45.540
number and they find out where this guy is. And

02:44:45.540 --> 02:44:47.260
then they go, well, what phone number is registered

02:44:47.260 --> 02:44:48.979
to that house? And they go to the phone company

02:44:48.979 --> 02:44:50.500
and they say, can you give us this record? And

02:44:50.500 --> 02:44:53.239
the phone company says, yeah, sure. And it's

02:44:53.239 --> 02:44:56.979
the guy. The cops got their man, right? So they

02:44:56.979 --> 02:45:00.239
go arrest this guy, and then in court, his lawyer

02:45:00.239 --> 02:45:08.299
brings all this stuff up, and they go, you did

02:45:08.299 --> 02:45:11.760
this without a warrant. Sorry, that was the problem.

02:45:12.059 --> 02:45:13.959
They went to the phone company and they got the

02:45:13.959 --> 02:45:15.819
records without a warrant. They just asked for

02:45:15.819 --> 02:45:17.799
it, or they subpoenaed it, some lower standard

02:45:17.799 --> 02:45:20.540
of legal review. And the company gave it to him

02:45:20.540 --> 02:45:22.239
and got the guy, and they marched him off to

02:45:22.239 --> 02:45:26.899
jail. They could have gotten a warrant, right?

02:45:27.000 --> 02:45:28.760
But it was just expedience. They just didn't

02:45:28.760 --> 02:45:30.760
want to take the time, the small -town cops.

02:45:30.979 --> 02:45:32.680
You can understand how it happens. They know

02:45:32.680 --> 02:45:33.940
the guy's a creeper. They just want to get him

02:45:33.940 --> 02:45:37.659
off to jail. And so they made a mistake, but

02:45:37.659 --> 02:45:39.239
the government doesn't want to let it go. They

02:45:39.239 --> 02:45:44.420
fight on this. And they go, it wasn't actually,

02:45:44.659 --> 02:45:48.399
they weren't his records. And so because they

02:45:48.399 --> 02:45:50.819
didn't belong to him, he didn't have a Fourth

02:45:50.819 --> 02:45:54.860
Amendment right. to demand a warrant be issued

02:45:54.860 --> 02:45:57.420
for them. They were the company's records and

02:45:57.420 --> 02:45:59.799
the company provided them voluntarily and hence

02:45:59.799 --> 02:46:01.860
no warrant was required because you can give

02:46:01.860 --> 02:46:04.139
whatever you want without a warrant as long as

02:46:04.139 --> 02:46:07.059
it's yours. Now here's the problem. The government

02:46:07.059 --> 02:46:11.059
extrapolated a principle in a single case of

02:46:11.059 --> 02:46:14.420
a single known suspected criminal who they had

02:46:14.420 --> 02:46:20.659
real good reasons to suspect was their guy. And

02:46:20.659 --> 02:46:23.000
used that to go to a company and get records

02:46:23.000 --> 02:46:25.500
from them and establish a precedent that these

02:46:25.500 --> 02:46:28.000
records don't belong to the guy. They belong

02:46:28.000 --> 02:46:30.139
to the company. And then they said, well, if

02:46:30.139 --> 02:46:33.020
one person doesn't have a Fourth Amendment interest

02:46:33.020 --> 02:46:36.819
in records held by a company, no one does. And

02:46:36.819 --> 02:46:39.280
so the company then has absolute proprietary

02:46:39.280 --> 02:46:41.739
ownership of all of these records about all of

02:46:41.739 --> 02:46:43.159
our lives. And remember, this is back in the

02:46:43.159 --> 02:46:46.399
1970s. You know, the Internet. hardly exists

02:46:46.399 --> 02:46:49.760
in these kind of contexts. Smartphones don't

02:46:49.760 --> 02:46:52.200
exist. Modern society, modern communications

02:46:52.200 --> 02:46:55.280
don't exist. This is the very beginning of the

02:46:55.280 --> 02:47:01.280
technological era. And flash forward now 40 years,

02:47:01.520 --> 02:47:07.559
and they are still relying on this precedent

02:47:07.559 --> 02:47:11.479
about this one pervy creeper to go, nobody has

02:47:11.479 --> 02:47:13.280
a privacy right for anything that's held by a

02:47:13.280 --> 02:47:16.610
company. And so long as they do that, companies

02:47:16.610 --> 02:47:18.709
are going to be extraordinarily powerful and

02:47:18.709 --> 02:47:20.190
they're going to be extraordinarily abusive.

02:47:20.250 --> 02:47:21.530
And this is something that people don't get.

02:47:21.690 --> 02:47:24.629
They go, oh, well, it's data collection, right?

02:47:24.670 --> 02:47:27.670
They're exploiting data. This is data about human

02:47:27.670 --> 02:47:32.110
lives. It is data about people. These records

02:47:32.110 --> 02:47:35.190
are about you. It's not data that's being exploited.

02:47:36.670 --> 02:47:39.209
It's people that are being exploited. It's not

02:47:39.209 --> 02:47:44.569
data. that's being manipulated. It's you that's

02:47:44.569 --> 02:47:49.709
being manipulated. And this is something that

02:47:49.709 --> 02:47:52.709
I think a lot of people are beginning to understand.

02:47:52.969 --> 02:47:54.750
Now, the problem is the companies and the governments

02:47:54.750 --> 02:47:56.430
are still pretending they don't understand or

02:47:56.430 --> 02:47:58.989
disagreeing with this. And this reminds me of

02:47:58.989 --> 02:48:01.690
something that one of my old friends, John Perry

02:48:01.690 --> 02:48:06.010
Barlow, who served with me at the Freedom of

02:48:06.010 --> 02:48:07.790
the Press Foundation. I'm the president of the

02:48:07.790 --> 02:48:14.049
board. used to say to me um which is uh you can't

02:48:14.049 --> 02:48:16.250
awaken someone who's pretending to be asleep

02:48:16.250 --> 02:48:19.790
he said it's an old native american saying that's

02:48:19.790 --> 02:48:22.889
a great expression it's a good way to i think

02:48:22.889 --> 02:48:25.850
that's a good way to end this um ed thank you

02:48:25.850 --> 02:48:27.510
very much for doing this i really appreciate

02:48:27.510 --> 02:48:29.690
it please tell everybody the title of your book

02:48:29.690 --> 02:48:33.040
and it's it's available right now Sure, yes,

02:48:33.159 --> 02:48:35.379
it is. It's on shelves everywhere, at least until

02:48:35.379 --> 02:48:37.299
the government finds some other way to ban it.

02:48:37.760 --> 02:48:42.540
It is called a permanent record. And I hope you

02:48:42.540 --> 02:48:45.600
will read it. I will read it. And I think what

02:48:45.600 --> 02:48:47.540
you've done is incredibly brave, and I think

02:48:47.540 --> 02:48:49.719
you're a very important part of history. I think

02:48:49.719 --> 02:48:53.620
when all is said and done, what you did and what

02:48:53.620 --> 02:48:57.360
you exposed is going to change the way we view

02:48:57.360 --> 02:49:00.579
mass surveillance, change the way we view government

02:49:00.579 --> 02:49:03.780
oversight, and change the way we view the distribution

02:49:03.780 --> 02:49:06.159
of information. I really think it's very, very

02:49:06.159 --> 02:49:08.920
important. And it was an honor to talk to you,

02:49:08.940 --> 02:49:11.500
man. Thank you. Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank

02:49:11.500 --> 02:49:12.959
you so much for having me on. Take care of yourself,

02:49:13.059 --> 02:49:16.899
man. Stay safe. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No,

02:49:16.899 --> 02:49:19.500
don't stay safe. Don't stay safe. Stay free.

02:49:20.079 --> 02:49:24.340
Open to possibilities. Take care. Take care.