Welcome to this curated educational transcript of the Joe Rogan Experience. In this session, we examine the critical perspectives and historical dialogues presented in Episode #[Número del Episodio]. Our goal is to provide a searchable, high-fidelity research resource for students of cultural history, technology, and global discourse. This transcript has been optimized for academic reference and archival preservation regarding Two one boom and we're live first of all cheers
gentlemen. Let's have a little toast relax Bob
Thank you very much for doing this. I really
appreciate it. I understand that you've told
the story many many times You've been grilled
many many times, and it's very stressful for
you, so I really really appreciate your time
for people who don't know the story There is
a documentary Jeremy Corbell has a documentary
out right now. It's called Bob Lazar Area 51
in UFOs and flying saucers. I first heard your
story decades ago. I told you last night we went
out to dinner. I've seen pretty much every interview
you've ever given. I've followed the story incredibly
closely. But for people who don't know the story,
let's give them the bullet points. Used to work
at area 51 and area 51 you got you you went like
Well, you know, we want to be accurate. Okay
area s4 s4 about 15 miles south of area 51. Okay,
but um you worked in What would you how would
you describe it? I guess within the area 51 compound
you can call that a subset of area 51 And you
got that job. Before that, you were working...
Before that, I had worked at Los Alamos National
Labs in New Mexico. And you were involved in
what kind of work? Nuclear weapon development,
physics. I mean, they do everything there. So
how do they approach you to say, hey, Bob, why
don't you come on out to the Nevada desert? Well,
the way this went down was... At that time, it
was 1982, I had put a jet engine in my Honda,
and Los Alamos put it on the front page of the
paper. Said, you know, Los Alamos man, physicist
at the lab, you know, built this 200 mile an
hour, you know, Honda jet car. I drove to work
every day. So I was known in Los Alamos, the
guy with the weird car, and you could hear it
from a mile away. Anyway, the day that came out
on the front page of the paper was the day Edward
Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, was
giving a lecture down there at the lab. And we
didn't have much going on that day in our group,
and I asked if I could go down there. And I went
down there early. And Ed Teller was outside,
leaning on a brick wall there and reading the
front page of the paper. Now this guy had a history,
so I introduced myself, hey, I'm the guy you're
reading about there, and we talked for a little
while and it was cool. You know, fast forward
to years later, I had moved out to Las Vegas
and had, you know, left Los Alamos and, you know,
went on to other things, and I wanted to get
back into the scientific community. You know,
I left to start other businesses and... And that
sort of thing. So I sent resumes out and one
of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced
our meeting you know back at back in that the
day and anyway, he remembered me and Gave me
a reference somebody to contact the DG and G
and that's pretty much how it started So you
get a phone call or a letter like what do you
get? Well, I got uh, what did I get? I got a
letter initially and went down for an interview
probably a couple times and it was down at EG
&G Special Projects which was at McCarran Airport
at that time out in Las Vegas. And did they give
you any sort of job description of what you were
applying for? They said it was for, I can't remember
exactly what they did, this was a long time ago,
but I think it was advanced propulsion or something
like that something relatively generic and they
said it's in a remote area you know it's going
to be some days on some days off and you know
it was kind of a it was kind of not exactly a
full -time job but you might have to be out there
for two weeks at a time and take two weeks off
so it was kind of a the work schedule would be
kind of broken up And did this seem attractive
to you, or did it seem weird? No, it really wasn't
weird, because people that work at the test site,
anybody that's familiar with the area up there,
you know, working at the nuclear test site, or
at the Tonopah test range north of there, that's
typically how things go. So you had known about
it from the scientific community? Because Area
51 at that time was still classified? No, they
didn't say anything about Area 51. They just
said it was in a remote location. and you just
know it was up at the test site right so but
there was no mention of area 51 at that time
so they've done hundreds of nuclear tests in
nevada nevada that that whole area was there's
been just giant chunks of nevada the people yeah
there's a big piece of Nevada and it's split
up into different areas. There's a nuclear test
site. There's area 51. There's the Tonopah test
range north of that. There's little sub areas.
There's areas where they test chemical weapons
and things like that. So it's all broken up as
a, you know, gigantic test area. So take me back
to first day on the job. You accept the job.
They take you out there. Yeah. It's, um, The
first day really I didn't really get to see a
whole lot the first day was essentially just
paperwork that's when I flew into area 51 proper
and I left McCarran Airport and flew what they
call the Janet flights just You know a passenger
plane from Las Vegas to area 51 and It was really
just going through a mountain of paperwork that
day from security clearances to God there was
it was like two or three hours of just solid
paperwork and that was that was really an uneventful
first day When did things get weird? When did
you realize they at what point in time did you
say hey? This is not normal work like this doesn't
even seem like it's from this planet That I can't
tell you what day that occurred on because so
much time has gone by the days have kind of fused
into one and I can't separate the days. Was it
a slow burn or was there a moment of recognition?
Well, the first inkling I had was when I came
in. There's this facility that is at S4. It's
in the side of a mountain. And normally we had
pulled in with the bus and gone around the front
through a normal double door. This time that
I went in, there were hanger doors open. I went
into the hanger door, and in the hanger door
was the disc, the flying saucer that I worked
on. I saw it sitting there, and we walked by
it, it had a little American flag stuck on the
side, and I thought, oh my God, this finally
explains all the flying saucer stories, this
is just an advanced fighter, and this is fucking
hilarious. So I went by, I slid my hand alongside
it, I got reprimanded immediately for touching
the thing. And there was a guy, an armed guard,
that followed us in and just said, keep your
eyes forward and your hands at your side and
just walk in the door. So that was the first
time I had seen anything that was weird. It was
some time later that I was introduced to my lab
partner, Barry. And we had some of the subcomponents
of the craft in the lab. And Barry was very anxious
to get a new lab partner. So he was very talkative
and couldn't wait to show me different things.
And it was in the demonstration of the reactor
working where it caught my attention to where
this is technology that doesn't even exist. So,
I mean, that was the first time I knew that this
is really something different. What was it? What
was it about this reactor that made you think
that it didn't exist? Technologically. Well,
it was that I actually have to back up because
there were some briefings that I read it before
that that You know certainly gave me the impression
that this was going to be a weird job But this
was the first hands -on thing this was a small
reactor about the size of a hemisphere about
the size of a basketball on a metal plate and
When it was running It produced a gravitational
field, a gravitational field of its own. Now,
this is something that we can't do. We can't
produce any gravity. The only way we get gravity
is from large quantities of mass. But there's
no machine we can have that turns on that makes
gravity, like, you know, you can turn on an electromagnet
and it makes a magnetic field. We can't make
a gravitational field. Anyway, this device was
producing that. And Barry said, almost like he
was bragging, go ahead, try and touch the sphere.
I couldn't. It pushed my hands away, just like
two light poles of a magnet. So that was... So
like when you take two magnets and you're trying
to press them together and they push against
each other? Yeah, kind of a cushion feeling,
but you can't get them together. The closer you
put them, the more they push. And you felt that
physically with your hand? With my hand. Yeah,
now there's nothing that does that. And that
immediately caught my attention going, wow, this
is something else. What was your thought, like
when you felt that and you knew that there was
nothing that you were aware of that could produce
this? Then that connected me to the briefings
that I read on the first day at S4 was that,
you know, everything that I had read was apparently
accurate. What were you reading? It was kind
of an overview. This project, was to back -engineer
the alien craft, and specifically it was to try
and back -engineer and see if we can duplicate
the technology with available materials. Now
to do this, they split the project into many
different pieces for several reasons. They do
this on all classified projects, so nobody has
the complete story. but they compartmentalize
everything. Now we had the power and propulsion
system. So what briefings they gave me were like
a one or two page overview of some of the other
projects that were going on, you know, on the
craft. The only reason they do that is just in
case what you're working on is connected intimately
in some way that we don't know of to one of the
other projects, you have to know their, excuse
me, their existence. So You know I bet again
everything from metallurgy to You know weapon
potential of the craft and these were all you
know essentially very short briefings, but mine
was just power and propulsion and It made it
very clear that what I read was accurate. So
when you're reading that before you actually
saw the reactor What were your thoughts on what
they were describing? If you knew that something
like that didn't exist, and they're describing
it in the briefings, what did you think you were
going to see? I really, I didn't know at the
time. I mean, I was reading, I thought, is this
some kind of test? To see if you're crazy? Well,
not to see if I'm crazy. You know, a lot of times
they'll take real high -security jobs. I mean,
they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them.
Whether it's to confuse the fact or if for someone
was to leak it out they would carry that information
along and know where it came from. So I read
through the documents but you know I didn't know
if this was you know part of some kind of test
or you know or what or was it potentially realistic.
I mean I really didn't consider it being all
that possible as far as being the actual thing
that I was going to work on at the time. How
did they turn it on? The reactor? Yeah. The reactor
can be turned on or turned off in a lot of different
ways. The way Barry showed me, the hemisphere
is removed. There's a small tower in the middle.
When you put the hemisphere on, the reactor activates.
The reactor shuts down. It's load sensing. So
if there's no load on the reactor at all, it
shuts down. When there's a load present on it,
it starts up again. Load meaning? You can consider
it an electrical load. Although it doesn't necessarily
operate electrically, there's no wiring that
connects any of the subcomponents together whatsoever.
They just have to be in the immediate vicinity.
The stuff is borderline magic. essentially where
we left it, you know, when I left the project.
So there was no progress made? There was some
progress. I mean, we did identify, at least we
think, some processes and had a rough idea. We
think of what was going on. But I think this
is a problem that they've had for a long time.
And, you know, I was replacing somebody that
Barry worked with prior to me. And I think there
was some horrific accident. that I didn't have
a whole lot of information on, but you know Barry
alluded to that. A horrific accident like where
someone died or? Yeah, where somebody died. Because
they were trying to tamper with things or figure
out how something worked? Yeah, the reactor in
particular. But yet he let you touch it? Yeah,
I think what they were trying to do was cut into
one. Now they had they had more than one there
and that was supposedly there was an unannounced
nuclear test. And that's what it was. At the
time, remember, they were still doing underground
nuclear tests at the test site. But from what
I understand, according to Barry, there was an
attempt made. Now, this must have been a pretty
desperate attempt because it's not a very scientific
process to cut, you know, analyze something that
way. But it looked like they used a plasma cutter
or something like that to cut into an operating
reactor. How many of these things did they have?
They had nine craft altogether. I only got hands
-on with one of them, so I can't really say how
the others operated. Did you see the other ones?
Yeah. At one time, and only one time, the bay
doors between the hangars were all open, and
I could see all the way through. And were they
all exactly the same? No, they were all different.
Different shapes? Yeah. But they were all from
somewhere else? Yeah, absolutely. Now, Did anyone
make any attempt to explain or to to tell you
where they came from? No, no, no one is the least
bit interested in letting everybody know all
the facts. They want to give you the minimum
information that's necessary to complete your
task. So you're not getting the story of where
they came from. You're not getting the story
of what how much progress other people are making.
You just focus on the small component. But they
gave you some indication that they've been working
on these for a while. Yeah. When do you think
they acquired these? I really couldn't say. I
think they've been around for a while. So they
bring you into this room, you see this reactor
working, you realize this is nothing that as
far as like the scientific community at current
time has the ability to create. We still don't.
What is your life like from that moment on is
that where everything changes because you do
I mean I would imagine the moment you actually
make contact With something that's extraterrestrial
whether it's an object or a being something where
you can actually absolutely be certain It's not
from here your whole paradigm the whole world
you live in is now a different place Well, this
is the only time it became exciting You know
the rest of the time that it was really an ominous
feeling being at work But it at that time it
was exciting I mean this was now I knew we were
on the absolute beyond actually beyond the cutting
edge of science and I was I was so Absolutely
excited to be there every single time I was you
know, it was a fantastic opportunity and However
In short order it began to concern me we really
have no idea what we're talking about and The
excitement kind of turned to dread at some point
because the amount of power we're dealing with
is Astronomical, I mean to affect gravity to
produce the effects like this equipment does
takes huge amounts of power and I've given the
example before of you know taking a small portable
nuclear reactor and you know putting it back
into Victorian times, you know with the scientists
of the time and Just dropping it in a room and
they come and look at it and see that it's producing
power and wonder how it works that they start
taking it apart and As soon as they get some
of the shielding off the people are gonna drop
dead because of the radiation inside Now the
people have no idea that even radiation even
exists back then but anybody that comes in to
check on him will also drop dead. And, you know,
there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't
happen with what we're dealing with. We have
no idea how the physics operate within this thing.
The power levels are, like I said, astronomical.
It's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something
like that. And, you know, in some respects we
were guinea pigs. Just try to find out how to
make this thing. So they'd had a series, as far
as you're surmised, they had a series of different
scientists try to back -engineer this thing,
try to figure out what this thing was, and they
would bring in new people and like, let's throw
Bob at it. Yeah. Yeah. And they'd know... I don't
know how many, but I knew there was certainly
one before me, and I knew he died during the
analysis of the, or the reactor itself. And...
You don't know how many have worked on it and
no one gave this could have been there for 50
years It could have been there for five years
when they're giving you instructions. What are
they saying? Like when they're giving you direction
They're showing you all this stuff. Like what
what are they saying? What specifically what
are they asking of you? Well, essentially what
they ask is what I said. We are just to gather
as much information as possible, find out how
it operates, and see if we can duplicate it.
But they never told you where it was from. They
never let you ask questions about where it's
from. Well, if the information I read in the
briefings was accurate, now what I do have to
say is the information that pertained directly
to the reactor was accurate. What I read I mean,
did jive with reality. In terms of how? In terms
of how it was made, what we saw, how it operated,
the materials, how it turned on, and what was
discovered about it. I'm sorry, the migraine
is really making it hard for me to think here.
Sorry, no, we talked that before the podcast.
You tell everybody Bob is getting a migraine.
I know you're very stressed out by this, which
is one of the reasons why I appreciate you doing
this. Where was I already? We were talking about
it when you explained it. So there was some paperwork
that indicated that this was from the Zeta Reticuli
star system. Now how they obtained that, I haven't
the slightest idea, but it wasn't just from the
Zeta Reticuli star system, it was what they called
ZR3, so it was a third planet in that star system.
There was no other information about it other
than that's supposedly where the craft came from.
Now, is that true? I don't know. I have no way
of verifying that, but that was printed in the
same materials that referenced the reactor. Now,
I looked that stuff up when I went home, and
Zeta Reticuli is a binary star, two stars that
orbit one another, and it's only visible in the
southern hemisphere, and it's about 30 some odd
light years away. So that's literally all the
information I have about that. I don't know how
they found out it came from there. And you also
probably have some suspicions that they give
you some disinformation like you were talking
about before. Yeah. I mean, if you ever decided
to talk about this, they added a bunch of nonsense
to make whatever is factual look ridiculous.
Right. Or be able to trace it down. Like, hey,
this fax came out and, you know, this Lazar guy
said it. you know came from zeta reticuli so
they knew it was when you read zeta reticuli
we're like what in the fuck is this well reading
all of the stuff it was what in the fuck is this
you're like why did i sign up for this like no
no it would to me this was cool this was interesting
i said i was just excited to be out in a secure
area you know in the middle of the desert as
it this is awesome how old are you at the time
i guess as in my 20s yes you probably Totally
geeked out. Oh, yeah, it's that this was this
was great. I mean, I was excited. So I didn't
care I've reading through everything and so you
read through all the zeta reticuli thing But
then when you see the actual starship with the
little American flag sticker on it. Well, that
was Was that later or before? that That was before
so before so you see the thing before and you
say oh, wait, was that before it hard so many
years? Yeah, I can't Either way, it doesn't matter.
The days have fused together. It's so hard to
separate what happened in each visit. Do you
remember the thought process when you read that
it's from Zeta reticuli? Yeah, it didn't hit
me like a ton of bricks or anything. It was just
like, yeah, okay. You think it was bullshit?
I don't know. Now I don't. I mean, because when
I read it, I hadn't verified anything, and this
was just a bunch of stuff I was reading, and
I thought maybe after this they're just going
to give me a test and see what I can remember
in crazy information. But like I said, when I
finally went in with Barry and had hands -on
experience with what they were talking about,
it had gone a completely different meaning. So
there's a plate there's this thing that looks
like a half of basketball and when it's on you
can't come anywhere near it You can't touch it,
right? How is it? What is? Gravity about that
like the the concept of gravity to most people's
gravity is bringing something towards it, right?
Well, I guess you would say it's anti gravity.
It's gravity shifted 180 degrees. It's a you
know any gravity and Did they have any understanding
about what could possibly create this effect?
Did they have any areas where they'd like you
to look into? No, they Well They knew there was
a fuel source in it and They were proficient
at making it work and again my analogy to something
like this is you can drop a Motorcycle off in
the wagon train days and just leave it with the
keys parked outside, you know somebody's place
Everybody will come around it and they'll poke
and prod and eventually They'll turn the key,
get it to start and become proficient at writing
it. Yeah. But they won't be able to understand
what the hell's going on. They won't be able
to make the plastic fender, much less anything
else. And I think that's exactly the state we
were at. We played around with the parts long
enough before I got there where they could make
the reactor operate, take the fuel out and know
that it makes it work. How exactly what was going
on in the reactor We remained a mystery at the
time. I think we made some progress on what was
going on inside, but I don't think anybody really
knew anything. They could just watch what was
going on and make note of it. How long were you
there? I'd say about six months or so. And what
progress was made while you were there? Well,
we came up with a bunch of reasonably good ideas
about how the reactor worked. And one of them
was the base, the square base of it was essentially
like a cyclotron, which is a small particle accelerator,
a circular one. Particle accelerators, linear
particle accelerators are just a, you know, long
tube essentially, and they accelerate particles
with high voltage and, you know, radio frequencies
till they reach high speeds. But a cyclotron
does that in a small circular area. And there's
this very heavy element fuel element 115 something
that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time
but it is now it is now yeah when did it become
on the periodic table now the way the charts
now you know I don't remember do you remember
when they 2004 Dermstadt Germany I think is where
they first fabricated four atoms that lasted
220 milliseconds with the atoms it's nothing
right and then it later was discovered a couple
more times they could fabricate it Then they
gave it, they gave it a place then on the periodic
chart after that called it Muscovian. So they
told you about this stuff in 1982? Yeah, well,
we kind of... Not 1982. What year was this? It
was 88 and 89 when I was there. 82 was when I
was in Los Alamos. I'm sorry. Yeah. So 88, 89,
they told you about this stuff. So this was not
like... No, they didn't tell me about it. That's
one of the things that this group came up with.
The... God, I keep losing my train of thought
with this thing. So this one area, this element
115 was the fuel. Yeah, it was the fuel. The
world will forgive you for having a migraine.
It's really hard to think through this. Just
give me a minute. We'll just give you more boost.
I just want to say, yeah, definitely. As I say
one thing, you know, Bob, for the last 30 years,
people have just been on the attack on Bob, you
know, getting to know him, the personal effects
on his life. It's really hard to understand unless
you meet his family and his wife. I mean this
is the last thing he wanted to fucking do was
have to talk Yeah, we should explain that Jeremy
that you and I had this conversation. I watched
your documentary We had this conversation and
I said I have to talk to him. Yeah the document
there was there's been detractors There's been
a bunch of people that called bullshit on many
of the things that you've said but over time
Many of the things that you talked about even
in the 80s have proven to be true things that
people said were not true were proven to be true
element 115 was one of them right right right
element 115 the fuel they had was stable in other
words it didn't decay it wasn't emitting radioactivity
um when they synthesized the two or three atoms
of the 115 uh it did decay and it was not a stable
element so they're they're kind of two different
things but this is kind of typical elements always
have, or pretty much always have, stable isotopes
and unstable isotopes. I think cesium has like
30 unstable isotopes to it. Well, hydrogen, for
example, you're familiar with hydrogen gas. It's
stable, it's not radioactive, but there's also
two other types of hydrogen, deuterium and tritium.
Deuterium isn't radioactive, it's another...
stable isotope of hydrogen, but tritium is radioactive.
Now they're all hydrogen, but they just have
a different amounts of neutrons. So it's the
same thing with other elements and element 115.
Depending on the amount of neutrons it has, designates
the isotope, but it's 115. They will continue
to take or experiment and try and make 115 at
different isotopes, and I'm sure eventually they'll
come up with a stable version, but it's the stable
version that has the properties that we're talking
about. So they somehow or another had acquired
a stable version. Did they say that the stable
version had come with this craft? Yeah, it absolutely
came with the craft, yeah. So at the time, you
having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart
and knowing what was real and what wasn't real,
what was your... reaction to having this stable
element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist
well everything was impossible right i mean down
down to the metal i i did get a chance uh...
to look inside the craft on only one occasion
and this was important because uh... where the
reactor sat might have been critical to how it
operated since everything operates without any
interconnections, so the placement of components
might be critical. So they allowed me to go inside
and look at it. Again, I forgot where the hell
I am. So you're going into this craft, and what
are you thinking when you're inside of it? Like,
what are you seeing? It's a very ominous feeling,
because it's... There are no... First of all,
everything is one color. It's like a dark pewter
color. And there are no right angles anywhere.
It's as if somebody took, I've said this before,
somebody took a model out of, and fashioned it
out of wax, and then heated it just for a short
time so everything melted. Everything looks like
it's fused together. Everything has a radius
of curvature where two items meet. It's a really
weird looking thing. There was almost nothing
other than a small foldable hatchway that looked
recognizable. Everything was really unworldly
to pick on it, a way to describe it. So you get
inside this thing and it's designed for something
that's much smaller than a human being? Yeah,
you can't really stand up till you get to the
very center of it. And how tall are you? I'm
5 '10". And what do you think this was designed
for? I'd say something close to half my height.
Wow. So these little three foot tallish creatures.
Yeah, and the seats were small too. I mean, obviously
it was made, you know, for something, something
small. But there is no, like, there's nothing
else in there. There's just seats, the reactor,
and some of the subcomponents. There's no control
panels. There's no bathroom. There's no decorative
uh, components or artwork or anything that you
would recognize or trim. I mean, it's just a
very bare bones thing. You're not seeing any
screens? Well, there are archways around it that
are part of the superstructure and that one of
the archways can become transparent. When I was
in there, there was another group working on
one of the archways and you could call that a
screen, more or less. So through that archway,
it would be it would maintain the solidity the
the solid Whatever metal it was. Yeah, but you
could yeah, it just became transparent Yeah,
I saw that happen once or twice before I left.
Did you ask any questions about what the fuck?
No, there's no asking questions now But when
you watch something become transparent And you
realize it's still there, but you can now see
through it. Yeah, I mean, now that's not that
impressive. We do have some liquid crystal materials
that are like that. You know, they have smart
glass. Yeah, they call it smart glass. So this
is just and I don't know if the craft is made
of, you know, an advanced metal or a ceramic.
It was cold to the touch. So, you know, I would
lean more towards a metal. You're not allowed
to ask questions. No the only they work on the
buddy system so i can only exchange ideas and
talk to barry. Now this really interferes with
science because science is based on free discussion.
And ideally you get a bunch of guys together
exchange ideas work on problems and that's how
things move forward but they're so over the top
concerned about security they split everything
off and. Everybody becomes stagnant it it. It
just destroys any of the progress you can make
or at least makes it go so slow They I think
they wind up shooting themselves in the foot,
which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck
that they need to get this madman with a Jet
-powered Honda come in and see what he could
do. I think that was an act of desperation I
think they wanted someone that thinks out of
the box and let's just give this guy a try here
because they weren't and They might have done
this four more times since you know up to the
point in time today assuming they're still working
on this thing and when you see this craft and
you're inside was there any indication that there
was an area that they would use to control it
to pilot was there a pilot seat was there there
were three seats they sat around uh the reactor
was in the dead center of it and then equidistant
around there were three seats so and that's all
There was a large, you would, they're not consoles,
they're large rectangular objects, also spaced
equidistant around the center. There's nothing
on them, there's no buttons, there's no lights,
there's no controls. And they look the same color,
the same thing. Everything is the same color.
It's just a different shape. Right. And directly
underneath them, there's three levels in the
craft. The main level is what we're talking about.
Directly under that, Those are the gravity amplifiers
the big rectangular objects underneath them are
the gravity emitters that look like for lack
of a better word a trash can hanging on a pipe
three of those and then the top layer I this
is just my personal belief. I think that has
to do with a Navigation or their version of a
computer With some planer panels sensor panels
around the craft that we would call portholes,
but they're not portals. They're just black areas.
And I think that just determines its, you know,
position in space. But I was, I physically was
in the center section and I stuck my torso in
the bottom section and hung upside down so I
could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.
What is roughly the size of this thing? It's,
I think it, I don't remember from being there,
but after all this stuff was over I had John
Andrews, a guy from the testers model corporation.
And, you know, we sat down and tried to figure
out from what I saw and known sizes of things.
And we came up with 52 feet in diameter. So I
think that's a small. Yeah. So I think that's
a fair, a reasonable guess. Now you said there's
nine of them and you got a brief glimpse at the
other ones. How are they different? Oh, they
looked completely different. One looked like
I called a jello mold. and it looked like a classic
jello mold with the rippled sides to it. One
was a very flat disc, you know, like a straw
hat or something like that. That was sitting
up on its edge and the thin part of it had looked
like a projectile had been fired through the
edge of it. So I don't know if they were attempting
to see if the metal could be penetrated or if
something or if that's where the thing came from.
Maybe it was shot down. But that was the only
one where I saw there was actual physical damage
to it. And that one was roughly the same size?
They were kind of too far away to tell. And did
there was several teams that were working on
the propulsion system? So there was different
teams that were working on these different aircrafts?
I don't know. I could only assume. Now, when
you're sitting in this thing, and you're looking
at this otherworldly craft, your goal is to try
to figure out how this thing functions. Your
goal is to try to figure out how this reactor,
I mean, imagine they would give you more time
than just one day to check that out. Oh, it wasn't
one day. Right. Yeah, I mean, this is, Barry
was there, I think Barry was sleeping there.
I'm sure they had, that isn't weird, I mean,
up at the Tonopah Test Range where they work
on stealth fighters. you know, you go, I think
three weeks on one week off and you just stay
up there too. So it's not weird to stay up at
the test site. Right. So, um, yeah, I think he
pretty much he acted like he's been up there
for a long time. Yeah. Um, but, um, yeah, who
knows? Do you, do you, do you have contact with
this guy? No. Oh no. I wish I did. I kind of
thought he was going to come out after I did.
Right. And I think I took so much flack and it's
so much shit for What went on? I think actually
I wound up helping security there and everybody
became afraid of you know doing or saying anything
after that So what kind of reports did you have
to give like so you're not making much progress,
right? You're just trying to figure out what
this thing is and it seems impossible So well,
we didn't personally make them. I mean we were
always there was never a lot of information that
we gained The guy, you would call him our supervisor,
his name was Dennis Mariani, and kind of a military
-looking guy, and he would routinely pop in,
you know, during the day, and, you know, hey,
what's going on, guys? And he would essentially
relay any information, anything new we came up
with. I mean, he was our go -between, where we
presented him the information, and then he took
it to wherever they were, you know. assembling
all the data from everybody now assume you're
working normal days like an eight -hour day no
no no it was really weird that i would be only
called in on certain times in certain days and
they would be weird hours to uh... most of the
time was later in the evening i mean i can get
a call at eleven o 'clock at night and they'll
say you know it's now eleven o 'clock uh... by
eleven forty five you need to be at mccarran
terminal and uh... You know, we'll let you know
when we have more information. But what did you
do while you were there? If you're looking at
this object, this reactor, and you can't figure
out what it is or how it works, other than the
fact that it works on this element that we don't
even know about. Sure. I mean, the thing was
that what you do, you know, with anything, if
you're trying to analyze it, all you can do is
perform tests. And all we did is try and come
up with every kind of test we possibly could.
I mean, we tested, you know, it violated a lot
of what we thought was impossible to violate.
I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics,
I mean, essentially, any machine, any device
that operates always makes extra heat. Nothing
works at 100 % efficient. Even the headphones
you're wearing, anything that takes power, some
of that power is going to be converted to heat,
and it's just wasted. This didn't. I mean, we
looked at, back then we had infrared cameras.
They're different today, but back then you had
to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool
the sensor down and get these infrared images
you've seen. But it never got, no matter what
the load was on the reactor, it never got above
the ambient temperature, which is impossible.
I mean, you're pulling out huge amounts of power
and nothing ever gets warm. We tried measuring
magnetic fields and there was nothing there,
so we started playing around with the emission
from the emitters, the gravity wave itself, and
saw what we could do with it and how it was focused.
So we really spent all our time just trying to
see what the stuff can do and what we can control.
So you were seeing what it could do, but you
couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it?
No, not really. I mean we really we really could
only use a come up with a best guess and Now
I can't say we really Right that I could absolutely
state for certainly or certainty how anything
actually worked now How did you know at all how
they were piloting it because some? They were
doing some tests where they're having these things
fly around in the sky And this is what gets us
deeper into your story. Right. I was out there
for one test. Right. In fact, I was in with Barry
in the lab and Dennis came in and said, we're
about to run a test. Why don't you guys come
out? Or I think he said, Barry, why don't you
come out here and bring Bob with you? We went
out there and the craft was already outside the
hangar and was just preparing to lift off. Now,
they were in communication with somebody in the
craft. So there was a person in the craft? Yeah,
there was certainly a person in there. Now, it's
not a comfortable place to be in because it's
small, so the guy has to be sitting on the floor
in the middle, my best guess. And this is the
same specific craft that you worked on because
that was the only craft that you were in? The
only one that I touched and worked on. And it
quietly lifted off the ground, which was incredibly
impressive to see. Quietly or silently? Well,
quietly, because it produced a little corona
discharge from the bottom. A corona discharge
is kind of a high voltage brush, little bluish
glow discharge. As it was lifting off the ground,
you can hear a slight hiss sound. Now, as soon
as it cleared the ground by about 5 or 10 feet,
maybe even less than that, the hissing stopped
and the blue goat disappeared. So it lifted off
quietly and then it hovered silently, if you
want to be specific. Wow. So then what kind of
maneuvers was it doing? It took up, for that
particular time, it took off, moved a little
around to the left and right, and then sat back
down. The craft itself They communicated with
it with a reg because I saw the guy talking In
a regular VHF radio to the person in the craft
and I even saw the frequency that was on the
frequency counter of the communication the transceiver
there But what's weird is he shouldn't be able
to communicate with the craft with a radio the
radio The radio wave should bend around the craft
I mean it shouldn't be possible if every single
thing about these the craft and the way they
operated Didn't make any sense to us. I mean
that's something we talked about for a while
after Why should the frequency bend around the
craft? Well? You really have to look at the way
the gravity wave comes out of the craft There's
the reactors in the center and there's a wave
guide that goes up to the top There's actually
a small appendage that sticks out of the top
of the craft and it produces a heart -shaped
Gravitational distortion around the craft now
if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk
underneath it and look up You actually cannot
see the craft the light bends around it. You're
bending gravity bends light It bends radio waves.
It shouldn't be possible to communicate with
a craft that has an envelope around it that's
distorting all forms of energy, but they were
apparently in contact with it. Somehow or another,
through some unexplained way that they didn't
bother explaining to you. So this thing gets
up, it just does some very simple maneuvers,
left, right, left, right, goes down. Did they
discuss this with you? I mean, they said they
wanted you to see it. No, they just wanted. No,
they didn't discuss anything with me. It sat
down. We looked around for a bit and Barry said,
let's go back. We went back in the lab. All we
got to do was see it. Fast forward to some months
later, I did have the test flight schedule of
the craft. Now they had times they had designated
high performance tests. This obviously wasn't
one. that was a high -performance test. The high
-performance test goes above the mountain range,
and they do much more radical moves with the
thing. Look, this is a prized item, and they're
not doing anything like taking it out of the
atmosphere or flying around to other countries
or anything like that. They just play with this
thing right over the test site. But they were
doing some radical moves with it. And since I
had the test flight schedule, statistically,
amount of traffic in the surrounding areas on
the highway was lowest on Wednesdays and that's
why Dennis told us that all the test flights
occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the
least chance that anyone would see what's going
on. And this was before the the government had
expanded the forbidden territory around Area
51 and Papoose Lake and all that stuff, right?
Yeah, I think that occurred after my story came
out, then people started going up on the mountaintops
and trying to look down into there and they kind
of freaked out and then did the land grab and
pushed everybody back. But yeah, I think all
that occurred long after I was going that I came
out. So you're working there and while you're
working there, you're under this crazy schedule.
Forgive me for explaining your story, but you
would get these phone calls, you would have to
go to the airport at 11 p .m., and your wife
started thinking that you were having an affair.
Yeah, apparently so. Now I did give my permission
to have, you know, as part of the, you know,
security clearance process, I gave written permission
to have... the phones monitored and things of
that sort. So they weren't doing any covert stuff.
They, um, you know, with any Q Q clearance or,
which is civilian top secret clearance or military
top secret clearance, they go talk to friends
and, you know, play places you've been, make
sure you're not connected to foreign countries.
But, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing
unusual. However, they insisted that, you know,
you don't even talk. Dear loved one to your partner
dear wife whatever about what's going on so she
was essentially in the dark and Didn't know the
phone was being monitored. Well part of the security
clearance is That not only do you not have any
connections to foreign countries and aren't a
maniac, but you have to have a stable home life,
too Well, she started having an affair with a
flight instructor now They were monitoring this
on the phone and they knew it and I didn't So
they stopped me coming in and their attitude
at the time was, we need to see how this is going
to play out and if Lazar is going to get a little
weird or anything. So let's just, you know, hold
them off from coming in and, you know, see what
happens. And they explain this to you? What was
happening? Well, after the fact, yeah, because
time kind of went on and there were guys that
were following me around. And I started getting
a little concerned going, well, are they booting
me out of the project? And if so, they're not
just going to let me hang out at home and go
get a new job knowing what I know. So as time
went on, I started getting a little concerned.
And I took my closest friends and just kind of
got together and said, hey, remember that job
I told you about? This is what's going on. And
Like you don't need to take my word for it. Wednesday
night, we need to all go out here. I want to
show you what's going on. So I took everybody
and we went out to remember since I had the test
flight schedule and went outside the base out
into the desert. And so everybody could see,
you know, one of the high performance tests.
And, you know, it left quite an imprint on everybody.
So they knew I wasn't. And there's videos of
these tests, right? Yeah. But remember, this
isn't that. It's in in the dark in the 80s of
the big monster -sized camcorder and you got
you know a bright light jumping around but Yeah,
I mean we did video of it, but there's no by
today's standards. It's but is your video specifically
available the video that you took Yeah, well
George Knapp has it It's is it online. Do you
I have no idea Jeremy? Yeah, I show clips of
it in my film It's it's online and someone did
a deep analysis of it. It was interesting Just
take a look at how this microphone up to face
about a fist from your face. All right You know
to see how his video looks now, but as far as
video evidence I mean we are talking 80s campers.
The most important thing is the human story here
Everybody that he took up there on three separate
occasions. They don't all like each other. They
don't all talk They all agree on one thing. They
saw something that night at the exact point in
time and space that Babazar said, and remember
this is 1715, 17 miles south of Area 51. No one
even knew really about Area 51. We're talking
Papoose Lake and they all agree. They saw something
that night they had never seen before and they've
never seen since right when he said it. So that's
one of like the six things where I'm like, how
did he know? You can dismiss him. I tried to
dismiss it, but some things we can't get around
and there's about five or six of them. How did
he know about those? If Jamie wants to find that
video right now, what would he look under? Bob
Lazar, UFO, S4 Area 51, just kind of like that.
So it's like the S4 UFO video, Bob Lazar, and
the guy does an analysis, but you're analyzing
these 80s videos. Right. From the very beginning,
Bob never said, I have proof of my story and
I'm going to tell the world. He said at the very
beginning, I cannot prove my story. That's not
why I'm telling this. George Knapp convinced
him to tell people and he lived through it. And
I didn't believe it either until I talked with
George. Okay. So you, you filmed these, this
test flight, one test flight, and then you get
caught. Actually, it was, I think the third time
because we went out there the first time. everybody
saw it everybody was amazed because it did some
radical maneuvers and You know everybody had
a lot to say about it maneuvers that I've seen
I've seen the video It doesn't I don't think
there's something we have now that does that
no in terms of like a human piloted craft But
I don't know obviously with the government. No,
it's it's impossible Nothing can move like that
and remember we didn't start filming from the
very beginning You know it the curve we were
waiting for something. You know to happen the
craft took off and I came flying at a stop, you
know, turned at a right angle, flew back and
then, you know, after it did some, you know,
amazing stuff to get the camera. And then we
started filming. So it doesn't have all of it
on there. It just has some. The way I describe
it to my friends and they said, what does it
look like? I said, take a laser pointer and then
have a wall and then move it around the wall.
Like, you know how it moves around the wall?
It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with
inertia or physics or it's not impeded in any
way by the atmosphere. Yeah, that's what it looked
like. You're essentially separated. from reality,
as crazy as that sounds, with being in case it's
own gravitational envelope, inertia is not going
to affect it. And, you know, this is how some
of those recent sightings with Commander David
Fravor, I'm sure you've heard of the Tic Tac
UFO, I mean, he describes exactly that the thing
operates exactly the way I was describing. That's
why he was interested to talk to me. But we saw
this, And, you know, on the way home, it's like,
hey, we got away with it. We should try it again
the next test flight day. So this became a thing
to do. And I think it was on the third time that
we got caught. I mean, we started becoming a
little careless. I think we took a motor home
out there. You know, I mean, it was like the
stupidest thing you could possibly imagine. Yeah,
it was ridiculous. And again, you're in your
20s. yeah and you know what was funny was um
we went out there and my friend gene huff and
i were leaning on the front of a vehicle and
just for some reason we just started talking
shit like uh well i hope they realize that uh
i don't remember what we're saying but you know
that something about attacking the base or something
along those lines and stealing the the craft
or something like that. And then about 20 feet
in front of us we see a little green light fall
on the ground and roll to us. And unbeknownst
to us, now it's pitch black, you can't see your
hand in front of your face, there were a bunch
of guards standing right out there and they had
a night vision scope where they were like from
here to the wall looking at us, listening to
us, and the guy dropped it and the scope rolled
over to us and you could see the green screen.
We turned the lights on and all these guys are
there. So It was, uh, yeah. Yeah. So we did incredibly
stupid stuff and got caught as we should have.
Cause so when they catch you and they bring you
in, then what happens? Well, I went in for debriefing
the following day. I went to Indian Springs Air
Force base, which is kind of a defunct base that
they used to use at the nuclear test site. And
this is when they brought out, um, the transcript
of the phone call with my wife and you know they
sat me down and we said you know when we meant
to keep the secret we meant you can't tell your
friends right you know and it just being sarcastic
and trying to um and then they got real serious
uh but this is where they you know took the transcript
out and were reading me what uh my wife and you
know our friend were talking about and uh i don't
know it was a hard time so what happens from
there What do they do with you? Why don't they
arrest you? I don't I don't know. I don't know
why I'm not sure they exactly they knew what
to do, but they did let me go that night and
I went home and This is kind of when the most
stressful part started because you're realizing
you're being monitor. Yeah now yeah now I know
not only am I being monitored, but now I know
I'm in trouble and It wasn't a short time after
that that I contacted, you know at that time
that only investigative reporter I had heard
of in Las Vegas was George Knapp and told him
some of the story because I had no idea what
the hell was going to happen at that point. So
George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries
to find holes in it, tells it. puts it online
and makes everybody aware of it and that's how
i found out about it yeah to make a long story
short what what happens yeah to really make a
long story short what happens from there on i
mean do they contact you and say hey bob it's
probably a good idea if you shut up how let me
try to label you as crazy was there there were
a boy there were a lot of things that happened
at you know between that point I'm leaving out
a lot of stuff to fill in the story. We'd have
to go back to Los Alamos and and Well, I really
don't want to talk about that the Top secret
weapons stuff that you were working on. No, I'm
talking about the 115 Well, I don't know I have
to think about how I What is the problem? I don't
want to get myself into more trouble by admitting
something so I just have to dance around a couple.
He was rated just during the filming of the movie.
The movie is great by the way. Thanks Joe. It's
on Netflix right now if anybody wants to check
it out and if you're one of those people like
me who you know I've always loved the idea of
UFOs. Became extremely weary talking to people
who are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because
there's so many of them They're full of shit
and not just full of shit. They're they're Childishly
delirious like the way they talk about things
that mean there's so many people that are that
I'm in contact They they reach me in the night
and they explain to me what we're doing to the
ocean is wrong and like you like, okay This is
one of the reasons I didn't want to do the show.
Well, no, it's no joke. We've had people literally
camp out on our front lawn and, you know, in
some ways I can relate to some of these people.
You know, maybe some of them did really have
some kind of experience or saw something and
all their friends think they're crazy. But hey,
now there's this guy I heard on the radio and
At least he knows I'm not full of shit, so I
gotta talk to him. And so most of the correspondents
I get are people trying to get a hold of me going,
Bob, you gotta listen to me. I'm coming to talk
to you. I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever.
But some of them are just fucking batshit crazy,
and they're frightening. There's a lot of schizophrenics
that are involved in the conspiracy world. There's
a lot of people that have real issues. Joe, it
would be a disservice to your audience to not
say that we have to look at what's going on now
and understand. I've heard on your show a bunch
of stuff about what's going on now. And to not
really understand what's going on now, you can't
see Bob's story in the correct light after 30
years. And at some point, we should just touch
upon that. The biggest being that things like
the tic -tac UFO case that came out I've heard
people even on the show say oh, there's a glitch
in the radar That's a data poor perspective.
You just don't know yet. What's really going
on commander Fravor I was able to get the interview
with him to talk with him way before it became
public I got that from him. He saw it other pilots
saw it This is a big thing that's going on right
now. They had more sightings on the East Coast
recently, cubes with spherical oars. These are
not aerodynamic, and these are the people we
trust to defend us on 9 -11. Commander Faber
protected Los Angeles on 9 -11. So we trust them,
but they're not trained observers. Radar, individuals
see these things, and the big one, just to throw
it down so we can consider a story a little differently,
there's more depth to it, the big one is... The
United States government has admitted that they
have been continuously studying the UFO phenomenon.
That program was called ATIP, Advanced Aerospace,
or sorry, was called OSAP. That's the mother
program. George Knapp got that out. They announced
through the New York Times about ATIP, but OSAP,
these acronyms, OSAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapon
Systems Applications Program, who cares? That
was the mother program. So they've admitted we
didn't stop studying UFOs in 1969 with Project
Blue Book. We don't think it's crazy. We actually
want to reverse engineer the technology. That's
why on your other show, you said, what's this
AAV thing? It's like, they're making up another
UFO name. Well, hold on. There's a reason. Because
in the documents, the DIA documents that George
Knapp released, that everybody said was fake
till now they know is real, they call them AAVs,
which is Advanced Aerospace Vehicles. People
are getting the acronyms wrong. So the reason
for the terminology change is so that we can
mimic what we're reading in the DIA documents.
People can look for that now. So they changed
the names to get people away from UFO or UAP,
even like Hillary Clinton said on air, right?
So what are you talking about? Hillary Clinton
informed the public on Jimmy Kimmel. Oh, Jimmy,
we don't call them UFOs anymore. We call them
UAPs, unidentified aerial phenomenon. Right?
So she kind of was giving, the Clintons are very
into the UFO topic. Senator Reid, you know, he's
done a lot for the subject, the study of it,
right? So she informed the public so they could
look for the right term. So these terms are important
because the DIA in those documents, they've been
calling them AAVs for quite some time now. And
they changed the name to anomalous. No, that's
kind of a misnomer. So they always mess around
with things, but it's actually advanced. Right.
But when they're describing it in the news, they
were calling it anomalous aerospace vehicles.
Totally. And that's cool. They were also saying
anomalous aerospace threats, AAT, right? Because
they want the sense of a threat. Right. So my
point is If people don't know this now and they
think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it,
that we're studying it, that we take it seriously,
we're spending money on it, and that we're getting
great data from visual pilots to radar, that's
why we know it's aerospace. They dropped from
80 ,000 feet. But guess what? That's the top
scope of the SPY -1 radar is 80 ,000 feet. So
the radar system they were using, it was coming
from above that. So my point is this. If you
don't understand that this is happening, you're
just behind the curve because you don't have
the information because of the stigma that you're
talking about. I saw you get totally upset with
the UFO topic. I met you first when you got totally
upset with the UFO topic. It's the people. When,
when you're doing your, I'm sorry, man. When
you're, when you're doing your show, you know,
the Joe Oregon questions, everything I could
see how how frustrating is, trust me, I have
been frustrated to hell. Luckily, my mentors,
George Knapp, and he's taught me the pitfall
pitfalls as I went through it. My whole point
in this rant right here is just that we have
to now look at Bob's story, but knowing the facts,
not someone saying it's a bird, it's a plane,
it's a glitch. They're not. And so if you don't
know that you just don't have the information
yet. Not just that knowing the facts as we know
them in 2019, not in 1988. Absolutely. And So
what has he said that has come true? He's totally
unimpressed with it, right? What has he said
that's come true? So I was like, Bob, they've
announced gravity as a wave. You were right,
man. You're vindicated. And he looks at me and
he's like, well, if you think about it, Jeremy,
I had like a 50 -50 chance. He was not very impressed,
right? When did they announce gravity as a wave?
So they detected, in a sense, they detected gravity
waves. Who is they? You might know more there's
two black holes that were colliding and that's
how they were able to detect Yeah, somebody Bill.
I don't know which group it was or what part
of the government. That's what Google's for.
Yeah, what it but they You know built a gigantic
gravity wave detector and pretty much Detected
that there are such things as first observation
of gravitational waves It says it was in 2016
Okay, the first observation of gravitational
waves was made on 14th of September 2015 as announced
by the LIGO and Virgo collaborators on the 11th
of February 2016. Previously, gravitational waves
had only been inferred indirectly via their effect
on the timing of pulsars in binary star systems.
The waveform connected by both LIGO observatories
match the predictions of general relativity for
a gravitational wave emanating from the inward,
I'm trying to get this, from the inward spiral
and merger of a pair of black holes around 36
and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down.
of the single resulting black hole. Well, I mean,
in the 80s, the predominant theory was gravity
is produced by gravitons. Theoretical particles.
But they're not. They're waves. They're not particles.
So the thought is that the way we experience
gravity, it's based on mass, which is why the
moon, which is Roughly one -quarter the size
of the earth has one -sixth of the earth's gravity
So there's some sort of a computation you can
make based on mass right and and remember We
can observe the effects of gravity, but we have
no idea what it is All we can do is observe it
and we can't make it the only way you can make
gravity is just put more mass together And it's
just a product of gravity, but if you can make
a if you have a machine that makes gravity You
can pretty much do anything you can affect time
you can have force fields all that stuff That's
in science fiction becomes reality If you have
a machine that can make gravity and what we worked
on in the desert was a machine that makes gravity
I love your analogy of dropping off a small nuclear
reactor to the Victorian era I love that that
analogy because back then that was impossible.
That was magic What you're talking about here
the fact that they just discovered this four
years ago that this is a wave But we're as much
as we know and as impressed as we are as we should
be with how much more Technologically advanced
we are than every other creature on this planet
We're still in many ways in the adolescence of
technological innovation absolutely absolutely
if even adolescence and when you're talking about
this binary star system zeta reticuli and who
knows how much longer these things have been
around in us who knows what their evolutionary
cycles been who knows what mean we might be talking
about something that's a million years more advanced
than us yeah yeah it could easily be now I'm
not in believe it or not I'm not into UFOs I
don't follow those stories or you know even after
your experiences no I'm fascinated with the technology
and I it really it irks me like every night I
go to sleep that you know I don't that it was
my own doing essentially that that prevented
me from continuing on in the in the project I
mean it's the that to be on that cutting edge
of technology is so alluring to me right but
you know by the same token I don't really care
that there's aliens or where they come from.
I mean, the prize is the technology. And that's
what I'm fascinated by. But so I don't listen
to UFO stories and that sort of thing. But George
Knapp is, I mean, he's the guy that has the contacts
and tries to thread everything together. And
what he recently told me is he found, I don't
know, is either documentation or people that
he spoke to, it's that this, the existence of
this project, the project that I was on, it's
something that they Seem to take out every eight
or ten years. So that's a very specific memo
and this is actually This is the first time I'll
be very clear with people about it. It's a big
topic of conversation right now It's called the
Wilson memo. You can look it up Admiral Wilson
met with a scientist who's actually was featured
in one of my films Everybody has been debating
whether or not this document of a conversation
With it with an sitting admiral at the time is
a real Document it's an actual conversation that
happened in this document is where everybody
wants to know the world is going crazy right
now in the UFO world I'll tell you straight up
right now. I'm in the position to know and it
is a real document That it is real. So the conversation
you read in that That conversation was had I
can't attest to every you're not being very clear.
Please no problem So there was a document that
is circulating right now that is really big.
It's going around everywhere. People are asking
and what is this document? It's called the Wilson
Memo, is how you can find it online. Or the Wilson
Leak. There it is. Jimmy's got it. The Wilson
Memorandum. Use of human vulnerable... No, no,
no, no, no. No, that's not it. Okay, okay, okay.
So, Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist
and they have this discussion, oddly enough,
at special projects at EG &G. And if I remember
the documents from 2001, I'm telling everybody
right now, it's real. And we'll see, my history's
pretty good with like saying if something's real
or not, right? So here we go. The document comes
out. They meet at EG &G Special Projects. In
1989, they stumble into a problem. This happens.
They put the technology away, and then they bring
it back out and see if material science has caught
up and if they can make any progress. So this
document kind of talks about this process. The
big thing I get from it, and a lot of it's vindicating
to Bob. And one of the things that's vindicating,
besides the EG &G thing, is that private industry,
so this guy's an admiral. And he says, I found
out about your SAP, your special access program.
I need to know about it. And he's going to a
private part of industry. And he has denied access.
And he says, I should be running this program.
And they were able to deny him access. So I think
the takeaway here is, check it out, I'm telling
you that that is an actual, correct, that is
a leak. Now, everything said in that document,
I don't know. What are you talking about? What
is said in that document specifically? It's between
a scientist and an admiral that are sitting and
they're having a meeting and they're talking
about the search for the UFO subject, the search
to get special access program access to all of
these different things like reverse engineering
programs. So in this document, they talk about
it. I believe that this document, that the person
that went was employed by Robert Bigelow. You
know, one of the guys has a couple of orbiting
satellites and all that stuff. He's the guy who
owns Skinwalker Ranch. No, he's not. He was the
guy that owns Skinwalker. Okay. Yeah, he used
to own it. There's a new owner and I interviewed
him for my other film, but there's a new owner
and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon.
But like it'll just there's there's stuff that
you'll be hearing about skinwalker ranching because
there's a new honor Anyway, the whole point of
this, you know insertion here is just that that
document kind of validates a lot of this idea
Bob just said that they make a little progress
then they can't go anywhere they tuck it away
and Then they bring it back out, you know, ten
years later and start working on it. What is
the limiting factor? I think Bob should speak
on this but it's the material science Yeah, it's
really where physics is. So I can see them doing
that. I mean, I didn't have any information on
that, but I think what, you know, George uncovered
is probably accurate that, you know, we try and
do what we can. And once we reach a roadblock
on, we really can't figure it out. It's just
frigging wait, put the thing away, wait for science
to catch up. And, you know, a decade later, let's
take the project out again and see, all right,
now where can we go? But there's got to be someone
who remains informed, right? Oh, yeah. So you've
got your scientists like you and Barry. You've
got your people that you compartmentalize. You've
got these people working on this project. Yeah,
there has to be some people that know everything.
You've got security. And then someone's going
to be on the outside. Saying hey, we need people
to guard this building. Don't let anybody in
for 10 years I think a lot of that is private
industry and I think that's how they keep it
Yeah, I think that's how they litter because
the government is just so leaky. I think that's
kind of what they're doing That's what the document
kind of proves. You just articulated that that
it is in control of private industry. What private
industry? Some aerospace company something. I
don't know. Yeah, they wouldn't they would the
guy with the Admiral wouldn't name it in the
car in the conversation so they Still have these
things supposedly I Would guess I mean, I don't
have any information have you ever asked anyone
that has any inkling of any idea of where they
got them or how they got them now, but Something
must have been said to me from Barry and but
I it was just too long ago and I can't quite
remember what was said but it It just left a
seed in my mind. I think at least one of them
was part of an archaeological dig. So it's old.
At least one of them is old. I don't know if
it was the one I worked on, but I remember something
to do with an archaeological dig. Whoa. So that
means it's not just old, it's ancient. That'd
be a great Steven Spielberg movie. Yeah. Right?
As all of it would. Yeah, that threw me out when
he said that for the first time. That's a freakout
right there. Just a couple of dudes with some
brushes looking for a Tyrannosaurus Rex bone.
They hit metal. And when did they find it? You
know, that they have nine of them. Well, and
how could we have not heard about that? What
about the guys with the brushes? How could you
uncover something like that? Well, Joe's newspaper
at home does. I mean, they said it on that first
day. Oh, you mean the Roswell Daily Record? Yeah,
the one you told me. Yeah, I have a cover. What
is this here, Jamie? This is the document, but
I had to do some digging to find it. Yes, it's
just kind of... Yeah, so this is where they meet
at EG &G and this is Admiral Wilson and there's
a lot more coming out now I want to be clear
George didn't put this out. He didn't leak this
out to anybody. This is I can tell you how I
recorded this this conversation So this was an
employee of at the time Robert Bigelow and this
is in 2002, right? Do you remember when he had
that government contract called? ASAP the world
all knows about now and he had nids that studied
the ranch that 22 million Everybody is saying
it was for a tip advanced aerospace threat identification
program The $22 million was for OSAP that was
pushed through through Congress, three congressmen,
right? An astronaut. It was pushed through. And
that's what that $22 million, by the way, they
spend more money on Viagra every year than they
do studying UFOs, if it was just this program,
which I think is funny. They probably make a
lot more money from Viagra than they do from
UFOs too. They probably do. Well, you never know
how it seeds into a population. But anyway, this
program, this is what was the mother program.
So it got the $22 million. Two million and really
it was to study skinwalker ranch oddly enough
that 22 million all was inspired by the phenomenon
They were seen at skinwalker ranch because the
scientists they're seeing vehicles come through
like a space in the sky Yeah, we went there.
I went there. Yeah, we interviewed a Bunch of
people that seemed full of shit, but a couple
that didn't but there's very very interesting
Totally and it there's but if you look I spent
a lot of time in the area. I'm not talking about
those stories, I'm saying there were scientists
hired by the government, right, through Bigelow
to study the ranch because they thought it was
important. And, you know, whatever, whatever.
The point is that 22 million was to study that.
Then we have ATIP, which is like an auxiliary
kind of program of military settings, like Commander
Fravers and that sort of thing. This document
is just one of those things that has now come
forward that through the Bigelow studies, it
was government funded and then it was personally
funded and then government funded. It's just
one of those things that kind of shakes you because
you got this military guy who can't get access
because of the private industry that's holding
these non -terrestrial materials that they can't
study it. So that's the claim right now. Give
it some time. Let people dig more into this.
It's fascinating, man. So you are essentially,
you're kicked out. Right? You're out of this
program. You can't work with these crafts anymore.
And do they give you any threats? Do they tell
you what you have to do from here on out? Yeah.
Well, I mean, the way it ended was I told George
Knapp all this stuff. And, you know, he said,
well, let's just get it on tape. Should something
happen, at least we have a record of it. And
I don't remember what the impetus was, but At
some point, George wanted to air it. And he said,
you know, you make the call on it. And look,
if at any point you change your mind, we won't
air it. And it came down to the day where George
wants to put it on the five o 'clock news. He
said, this is important stuff. People have to
know about it. And I thought it was too. I thought
it's kind of a crime. I know you got to keep
the technology secret, but you can't not tell
everybody that this stuff is going on. that we
have you know actual hardware from another civilization
it's a big fucking deal you know probably the
biggest one there ever was and um george said
you know today's the day we got to put it on
the news or something to that effect and when
it came right down to the time to air it i changed
my mind and i said we're not doing it and that's
what turned into the famous wrestling match between
me and george trying to get the tape but he won
because he was a bigger guy. So you actually
physically wrestled? Well, I think it was more
of a pulling match. We were I don't think we
ever hit the ground. But he got the tape, put
it in the player and boom, five o 'clock news
was on. And then I got a call after that. And
they said it was from Dennis. He said, Do you
have any idea what we're going to do to you now?
And he hung up the phone. That was the last communication
I had with him. And what has happened to you
since then? After that, A lot of people I've
known either were audited by the IRS, people
had, anybody I know that had clearances that
worked in secure programs had the clearances
pulled. One of them, a friend that... One of
mine that Jeremy knows. He's going on camera
with me soon. He'll tell the story now that he's
out of work up there. He was working up at the
Tonopah test range waiting for his clearance
to come through and you know they pulled that.
It became, it's like if they can't get the person
that's involved, they just create a problem for
everybody that surrounds them. And so I mean
the way it turns out, it hurt a lot of people's
lives that I was connected to. And that's an
effective way of shutting someone up. Did you
feel that by coming forward and going public
they couldn't just snuff you out? That was, I
mean, that's what I was told in George and everybody,
you know, said that, you know, it's public, there's,
you know, no one will touch you. And I, you know,
I fell for it. Do you wish you didn't? Yeah,
sometimes. Sometimes when it's just overstressed
and people are camping on your lawn. Yeah, but
this is going to make things worse doing this.
No, this is going to make things better. I was
trying to tell him. How is this going to make
things better? Well, because you're getting a
real chance to explain yourself in a way that's
going to make people who not only work in the
government, people that are police officers and
firefighters and first responders and doctors
and scientists, they're going to empathize, empathize
and Empathize with what it must be like to be
a person like you in your 20s who gets thrust
into this world unknowingly and confronted with
one of the most, if not the most important discovery
in the history of human beings. The big question,
are we alone? It's the number one question. There's
two questions, right? What happens when we die
and are we alone? Those are the two big questions.
Right. And if we're not alone, and someone knows
we're not alone, and these some people who know
we're not alone are these bungling sort of military
folks. Even if they weren't, it's a crime that
they're not telling the rest of us. But I mean,
I don't mean bungling in terms they're incompetent.
I mean they can't be competent. It seems to me,
to what you're describing, that no one can be
competent with this technology. Like the Victorian
era scholars Analyzing some sort of a nuclear
reactor. There's there's no way. Why do you think?
Why do you think they're not telling us? Let's
just make an assumption that this is true right
now Why do you think that they're not telling
us that our government doesn't tell us? What's
your best? Well, let me put it into you What
would you do if I'm the president? Okay, and
I get this information. What do I do with this?
What do I do this? There's something that we
don't know There's something we don't understand.
There's something that came from another world.
We got it tucked away in the mountains. And I
just wanted you guys to know about it. Hey, sleep
tight. Hey, American Nato's on tonight. Who do
you think is going to win? Yeah, who's gonna
win America? So one is uncertainty and the other
one is what Bob and I have talked about a lot
Absolutely not knowing what to tell people because
you don't really understand it yourself even
right What do you say you if you want to run
a government you want to get people to pay their
taxes? There's something else. Yeah, what do
you say you have these objects fine with impunity,
right? And you but you have something else. Well,
not like that. What can you say? like how much
do you really know i think it's mainly the technology
that they just want to keep the technology secret
because of their yeah whoever gets this dude
yeah they you you control the where you become
you literally become invincible once you master
the technology you can't you cannot penetrate
a field like that so i imagine that's i know
it's all science fiction but science fiction
turns into science fact if you have real force
fields around aircraft and battleships You win.
You win. You can force your will upon anybody.
And like I said, there's so much more to the
story. When I was first there, there were Russian
scientists at S4. This was early on in the project.
So this was before Operation Paperclip became
public as well, right? I would imagine. I don't
know what the dates were. When was that? 98 I
think 98 yeah, I don't know the dates on so it's
been roughly ten years later operation paperclip
becomes freedom of information Act We saw that
Russia not Germany. He said Russian scientists
Yeah, but I mean Russian scientists a lot of
them came from Germany A lot of those those rocket
scientists that work with NASA, they all came
from Nazi scientists. Got it. So some Russians
got some of them. I just know at some point there
was intense cooperation with Russia, even exchanging
some ideas on nuclear weapons and, you know,
EMP tests and some things we would never have
discussed with them. But at the same time, it
was in the late 80s. They were involved and actually.
in the area at S4 with us. So you got to communicate
with these guys, or you saw them? No, I knew
they were there. Barry would talk about the commies
that were there. The commies? Yeah, the commies.
That was back when they were the commies. Yeah,
they were real commies. Isn't that interesting?
At some point, it wasn't our group, but at some
point, there was a big discovery made. And this
did not happen when I was there. It happened
in between my trips to there. And after that,
apparently they decided it was just too cool
to share with anybody, and the Russians were
never allowed back on the base after that. But
you don't know what that discovery was? No. No,
like I said, it wasn't my group. So one of the
other groups really found out something. But
the, you know, in typical American fashion is,
all right, this is ours. You guys get the hell
out of here. Was there any inkling that any other
government had something similar? No, not nothing
that I had her see that was the thing that always
freaked me out was why if if something was so
Superior to human beings. It's almost like visiting
an ant colony. Like why would you go to the Queen?
I don't give a fuck who the Queen is. I'm a human
I'm so superior to you ants. I don't care who
you have running your hive. I'm just gonna study
it I think it's who got it who got look at the
you know rocket technology in Germany But they
got nine of them Yeah, that doesn't make sense
to me either. So they were either in the same
area or, you know, one had clues to where others
were. I mean, I don't know, you have to fill
that in there, but you're right. I mean, nine
of them, that's a big dig if it was archaeological.
Well, one of the more recent sightings and these
discussions that have been coming out recently
from Air Force pilots and Navy pilots, they've
been talking about things happening in the ocean.
And that something literally goes into the water
or something maybe below the surface of the water.
You're thinking about the 2004 Tic Tac Nimitz
case. So that's when George Knapp and I broke
on the radio twice before the New York Times.
So I know this one really well. Commander Fravor
and those pilots. There was a disturbance on
the surface of the water. Commander Fravor visually
saw what looked like similar to a cross, some
object. So it's like, as if you have some coral
under the water and you've got, it's breaking
over. Right. The Tic Tac is doing this crazy
maneuver that defies. It's a gravity -propelled
system. They saw it in the sky before they saw
it in the water, right? Yeah, so there was radar
that was picking these things coming down from
80 ,000 feet and dropping to 50 feet in less
than a second. This is it, Jamie? What is this?
This is actually on the news today. There was
a briefing. So a lot of people get this confused.
Not this one, then, either? No, so that is called
the gimbal. So there's three videos released
by the Pentagon that are all actual. Just play
and keep the volume up. I would really just pay
attention to the source video. So you've got
the tic -tac, which is this object that Commander
Fravor saw. Another pilot filmed it with a FLIR
pod, and it goes... But this one you see is really
important to Bob's story. The gimbal craft. It's
been recently analyzed. It's FLIR. Not only is
it definitive that it's not a conventional anything
by its movements, but there's a pocket of cold
air around a propulsion source. So this object,
by the way, sat stationary for days, if not weeks,
it sat stationary. Yeah. They found it 11 hours
later and they were saying there's no way this
thing using that kind of energy to go that fast
could just hover the amount of time. And by the
way, you're seeing a very small part of what
happened to that day. This object was not alone.
And so hopefully that information comes out and
we can, I mean, I wish we had video of it. I'm
sure we'd all want to see it. But that's called
the Gimbal. That was East Coast, right? 2015.
West Coast, 2004, was the Tic -Tac. The disturbance
on the water, Commander Fravor believes there
was something under that water that was causing
that disturbance when the Tic -Tac was coming
around and doing it. With inside the people that
are studying this, they're thinking maybe the
Tic -Tac system was causing the disturbance,
but the USO, unidentified submerged object, that
he visually saw, The whole interesting thing
about that is, I would love Bob to describe it,
is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in
space, air, or water. Why doesn't it matter?
I love when he talks about this shit. Well, first
of all, Commander Fravor was the F -18 pilot
off the Nemets that was sent out to find out
what this stuff is. And it wasn't just, I got
a chance to talk to him recently, and it wasn't
just a radar image. I mean, Commander Fravor
had eyes on it. for over five minutes watching
this thing as four other pilots did so it wasn't
a radar blip or anything i mean these guys were
watching this thing but um... you know one of
the things i think in the gimbal video the way
the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't
fly like a conventional aircraft does, and it
doesn't fly like a flying saucer would in a 1950s
movie. It flies belly first. I mean, it may set
down conventionally, but it always rotates. It
does a roll maneuver, puts its belly towards
the target, and then moves away at high speed.
So it would be like a car flying with the wheels
forward. Right. Right. I mean, it may lift it,
land on the wheels, but at some point when it
wants to leave. flips up, points the wheels where
it wants to go, and takes off. And the gimbal
video, you can see the craft do the roll maneuver.
And it's really interesting. It behaves exactly
like the craft that I worked on. So much like
we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter
jets and cars, they probably have different shapes
of these objects that operate under similar principles.
Right, but they all have the same power source.
They all have the same power source. And we're
also dealing with, if you think about the laws
of technological progression, you know, you think
of Moore's law and you think of how things accelerate,
you've got to think that if this civilization
is who knows how many years more advanced than
we are, if not even years, I mean, we're thinking
about in terms of conventional terms, right,
the way we look at the world. I mean, they might
be just superior in terms of their intellect.
They've got to be. Maybe. Maybe. We don't know,
right? Well, the only reason I say that is because,
look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a
steam engine and go to an internal combustion
engine, and then, you know, electric power, nuclear
power, and go up the ladder that we came in.
you know the binary if the stuff is true about
the origin and the binary star system and they
have heavier elements that we don't have and
this element stable element 115 is a naturally
occurring material maybe that's the first thing
they started experimenting with and the version
of their steam engine their first product was
something that operated like this and actually
when they came to earth to look around or you
know whatever they were amazed at the stuff we
were doing these guys burn stuff and squirt it
out the back to go forward. So who says they
follow any kind of normal progression like that?
My thought was if you went back to the 1400s
and then you went from 1400 to 1500, you're not
going to see that much of a difference technologically.
If you go from 2000 to 3000, I assume there's
going to be a radical change. Well, yeah, the
Delta, the rate of change is magnificently higher.
than it used to be. Right. So if you think about
what they had in 1988, and you think about what
they probably have in 2019, just logically seems
like they would advance. I would think so. The
only question is like, are they living? Is that
a living thing in terms of like a biological
thing? Or are they some sort of an artificially
created creation like we are working on right
now? I mean, we're in the middle of working on
artificial reality, artificial beings, sentient
beings, artificial intelligence. There's silicon
-based life forms that they're essentially trying
to create. Boston Dynamics, or was it Boston
Dynamics at the time? Robots, yeah. You can make
machines out of flesh, right? So a cyborg or
a cybernetic organism is just that, you know,
that's what a lot of people think those like
gray things are, you know, that people call the
grays. Yeah. Is like, they were like, they're
machines printed from flesh. So what you're saying
is, like, not so far off. No. Synthetic life.
They don't even need to be, you know, machines.
Well, they seem to have no sex organs, the way
they're described by people that have had interactions
with them, assuming these people aren't liars
or crazy or whatever. Right. They have no sex
organs and that they don't seem to have any muscle
that is almost like a frame. Right. And they
have enormous heads. I mean, if you look at Australopithecus
or depictions of you know ancient hominids and
then you go to human beings one of the things
you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies well
you see a clear progression of evolution yes
where something like that I would lean towards
synthetic organism because it looks like it was
made for a specific task there's no reproductive
organs so I mean that almost kind of leaves out
any kind of you know, physical evolution. Right.
Well, that's also our bottleneck, right? Our
bottleneck is our biological imperative. The
need to breed, emotions, fear, anxiety, all these
different things that exist in order to force
us into making sure we reproduce. I mean, that's
essential. There's human reward systems that
aren't necessary once they can figure out a way
to make some sort of sentient, artificial life.
some sort of thing that doesn't have these biological
limitations that we have. By the way these craft
all these different kinds have been reported
because it was confusing I always thought of
flying saucers what I heard Bob Lazar talk about
flying saucer right but if you look back in history
people have always reported the weirdest shapes
like none of them are alike you know there are
the saucers but you got cigar shaped you got
you know, the top hat shape, you have orbs, why?
Maybe they're serving different purposes, they're
doing different things like we'd use different
tools. And I want to be clear, the reason I know
that memo is real is because I spent a lot of
time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, six man to walk
on the moon, last guy to film him before he died,
right? That's how I know I don't want any journalists
thinking I got it from anywhere else. I know
because of Dr. Mitchell, and he said the same
thing, maybe these things are performing different
tasks. You know, and that's what I've seen if
you if you think about what an alien is in terms
of our our The sort of iconic image of an alien
like the Steven Spielberg closing cows are the
third time the third kind alien they seem like
What we'd assume a human being would eventually
become right? And if these things are tiny, human
beings are smaller than they've ever been before,
they're weaker than they've ever been before,
and there seems to be a trend in that direction.
And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological
progression, our lack of need for muscle strength
and our lack of need for violence, and we're
moving in a society to try to get away from all
the things that we think are abhorrent about
human beings and the terrible behaviors that
we have. If we one day do give birth to some
sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's
quote, we are the sex organs of the machine world.
You know, that one day we... Okay, I'll buy this.
Yeah, McLuhan was brilliant. And that quote has
always been one of my favorites. Because, okay,
what are we doing when we're constantly technologically
innovating? We're constantly looking for faster
cars, better computers, bigger screens, faster,
more resolution, more pixels, more this, more
that, higher bandwidth, 5G, 10G. What are we
doing? We're moving into this... If you just
follow it, objectively stand back, don't attach
yourself or your civilization, your culture to
it, and look at what... it is, we're moving 100
% towards technological innovation. If you looked
at this species from afar, and if you weren't
a part of it, you would say, well, what does
this species do? Oh, they make things. They make
things better every year. Beehives are the same
fucking thing that you see 10 years ago. You
go by, you see a beehive. It's amazing. It's
cool. But they're the same fucking thing. They
figured out how to do it. They make a beehive.
We don't do that. We make better things constantly.
And at some point, I think that technology is
going to fuse with us. Yes. And we're going to
be coming. It's already happening. Yeah. And
Elon Musk talked about it on my podcast, that
we are cyborgs. You just carry it in your pocket.
It's a phone. It answers any question you want.
You can talk to it. It will give you the answers
instantaneously. It navigates you. It has all
your phone numbers in it. It has all your contacts.
You can get a hold of people, people listening
to you through it. It's connecting us in ways
even involuntarily. Haptics, that kind of thing.
Yeah. It's also getting on your wrist. How many
people have eye watches, Apple watches? Well,
right. Right. And that's only because we can't
integrate them yet. But you know that point is
common. 100%. Yeah. I didn't joke about it last
night, but I have a bit about it that I do, about
the integration between humans and technology.
What would you do if you were a hyperintelligence,
right? Would you do the work yourself or would
you create some cool things called like humans
to do it for you? Would you create things that
are cybernetic organisms to come in with machines
and do it for you? If you were a hyperintelligence
that has kind of changed like you've described,
you'd probably create workers, right? Well, that's
a vast conspiracy theory. I'm not talking about
conspiracy, but it is a kind of a conspiracy.
I'm asking you. Well, I mean, I don't think it's
necessarily that. I mean, you could look at it
that way, but that is the way a conspiracy theorist
would look at it. The way I would look at it
is, like, there's obviously a progression going
on, a biological progression. There's some sort
of an integration with technology. There's some
sort of imperative, this need for technological
innovation. It's inescapable. Everyone has it.
And I think it's attached to materialism in some
sort of a strange way, because so many people
work so hard to get new things. And like, God,
that seems so illogical and preposterous, and
it makes people unhappy, and depression's on
the rise, but nobody seems to be able to Why
is that? Well, maybe it's because we are the
electronic caterpillars that give birth to the
butterfly. Maybe that's what we're doing. That
could very well be. What our job is to do is
to make some sort of a cocoon. And we don't even
know we're doing it while we're doing it. Do
you think a caterpillar is, well, hey, caterpillar,
what are you doing? Man, I'm doing my thing.
It's my job. I have to make a cocoon. I'm going
to become like a butterfly. This could be a natural
part of evolution. It could be. That we're just
supposed to do this. Exactly. And make the jump
to some sort of mechanized. Right. Yeah, non
-biological. Have you ever seen an orangutan
that is fishing with a spear? No. They've figured
out how to fish with spears. There's, there's
primatologists. Wait, without somebody showing
them how to fish? No, they've imitated human
beings doing it. And now they do it, but they
do it independently. They're not trained orangutans.
They're wild orangutans. Look at that. There's
a wild orangutan. That's impressive. That's impressive.
Well, there's these primatologists, I guess you
would call them primatologists. That's a term.
That's a great term. Biologists that believe
that monkeys and chimps and some of the great
apes are moving into the Stone Age, that they've
currently entered the Stone Age. Like they're
not staying what they were 100 ,000 years ago
or 500 ,000 years ago, but they're actively using
tools and they're experimenting with different
ways to use those tools and then they're making
tools out of stone. They're making tools out
of sticks and they're using them. Well, this
might just be what happens. This might just be
what happens. Thank you. Mean why else why would
why the fuck we work so hard? I mean, I was I
was driving to LA this morning I had a doctor's
appointment So I was on the 405 at 8 in the morning,
but Jesus Christ Like this is so crazy when you're
in the 405 in LA at 8 o 'clock in the morning
You see literally a million cars and it's just
everywhere you go as people but and also I'm
in a Tesla So I have it on autopilot. So I'm
there sitting. I'm listening to a podcast. I
barely have my hand on the wheel I'm not touching
shit. This car is driving me along I'm not even
doing anything. I'm just hanging out. It's so
much less stressful, by the way, to do it that
way. So it encourages you to innovate. It encourages
you to embrace this new technology. I got this
giant screen. It's showing me the navigation
in front of me. Oh, I'll be there five minutes
early. Excellent. And I'm listening to a podcast
wirelessly. It's Bluetooth streaming from my
phone. And I pulled that podcast, which came
out today, out of the fucking sky. And I'm listening
to it. And I'm all comfortable in my nice little
car. driving on my way to the doctor's office.
This is irresistible stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's
different than your Walkman, you know, back in
the day. It is irresistible. It is irresistible.
It's frighteningly irresistible. But is it frightening?
I mean, if you were a monkey, right, if you were
an Australopithecus, would you go, man, I don't
want to fucking be a person and live in a house?
That's bullshit. I like just swinging around
on trees. I like running from jaguars. This is
life. Guys, life is running from crocodiles.
It's not living in a fucking suburban community.
No, there's probably some that are like that.
Yeah, I don't think so. I think when it comes,
we're going to embrace it. We're going to embrace
it the same way you embrace cell phones, the
same way you embrace Television there's gonna
be a few holdouts. I don't even have an email
address, man Those are those like there's a few
and far between the good luck with that fucked
face go move to the woods Ted Kaczynski. Yeah
Ted Kaczynski was right This is something that
I think about sometimes when I get really high
that Ted Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard
LSD studies This has been proven Ted Kaczynski
They cooked his fucking brain when he was at
Harvard and then when he went over to Berkeley
and became a professor His goal was to make enough
money so that he could implement this program
and live in the woods and then write his manifesto
and start killing people that were involved in
propagating technology. He was expunged from
the Harvard logs, by the way. This is something
my friend just called me about. So there's like
this private library and they used to print people's
names whenever they were part of a university
and he was one of a handful of people that were
expunged from it. I want to jump back to the
one thing, Joe. I want to be very careful with
that word conspiracy theorist. What I was what
I was saying to you was we terraform our earth,
right? We terraform we change the environment.
We do all this innovation What is stopping us
from thinking that that's not being done? I'm
not saying it is I'm saying what's stopping us
from thinking that that's being done on a much
bigger level on a cosmic level You mean like
aliens coming down doing that to humans? Well,
I'm telling you that there is something here.
That's there's a fact, you know, there's something
there are craft. They're here They're not ours.
They're here. So the question is What is that
about? And I'm just looking at what we do with
what you're describing with technology. I think
it's much more likely that the same way we observe
chimps. and we observe that they are now in the
Stone Age, that they're observing us, and that
they're recognizing that there is a pattern,
that there is a, there's steps that happen. I
mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels
of civilization and that, you know, that if we
don't get past certain levels, we're never going
to reach this. I mean, we're in a type one civilization.
We're going to stay at type zero. Well, we're
in this warring. polluting, pillaging civilization.
It's like, well, we're awesome in a lot of ways,
you know, but in that way we're not, but yeah,
we're, we're, we're children that have immense
power that we didn't really. The other thing
is you're using the immense power that other
people have created, right? I mean, even when
you're driving a car, you're stomping on the
gas, like, woo, you didn't invent the fucking
engine. You didn't invent tires. There's all
these things that were involved in the creation
of this thing that is really outside of your
grasp of understanding, but yet you have the
ability to use it. Like a person with a gun,
I'm just gonna bang, bang, bang people. You didn't
invent a gun. So without the intellect to craft
and engineer and manifest these creations, you
just have access to them because you have paper
or you have Bitcoin or whatever the fuck you're
using, using a credit card. Now you have almost
no responsibility. You could just flippantly
use these things, which is why we, you know,
we were very childlike in our actions. We haven't
had to earn the responsibility. We haven't had
to earn these things that we've been able to
have, and you've only been able to have them
because other people have innovated and spent.
ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus
in the lab to create these things and then they've
all put them together and then what is the what's
the reason to put them together to profit? Well,
what's the reason to profit? Well, why are you
doing this so you can buy more things? What are
we doing? What are we doing? We're making better
things. That's what we do. That's all we do.
That's all we do is make better things. Yeah.
Why the fuck do we need oil? Why do we need oil?
Why can't we just burn wood and stay home? Why
can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard?
Why can't we do it? Well, we fucking can. We
certainly can. People do do it. But we decide
to make that almost impossible. Our preferred
way of living is to stuff everyone into a very
small area where no one grows anything other
than weed. This is what LA is. LA is 20 million
people with hard surfaces, as many hard surfaces
as you can. Boy, if you got an acre backyard
in LA, holy shit, look at all that grain. This
is amazing. Well, no, that's the fucking earth
coming through this weird sort of... Creation
that we've put on top of the earth, but the goal
is that like New York City That's there's none
of it, right? You just got you've got Central
Park, and they just got human shit. He's stacked
up No one's growing anything and then constant
work. Everyone's up early go go go innovate progress
make that money so you can buy more things and
Every year hey Apple. Where's this fucking new
phone as if your phone isn't good enough? Your
phone's taking pictures and videos and people
are calling And you got applications to tell
you which way the winds blowing. That's not good
enough a blink of an eye blink of an eye It's
all gone though that you know like 10 ,000 years
and the Hoover Dam goes or whatever you know
Mount Rushmore Disintegrate so it's amazing because
we have created that and and everything's trying
to spring up through that we keep it maintenance
down But we're we're a blink man something hits,
but we don't think that way Well, you know you
think in terms of your own life right you think
in terms of what you want and what you need right
now You know what it's? we are in many ways this
combination of this weird primitive ape -like
thing with The ability to calculate and manipulate
our world and our environment that makes us wholly
unique on top of that with existential angst.
And and and fear so what do you do with that
we fucking water it down with the antidepressants
give these fucking people some shit that keeps
them moving whether worried about the future
the trying to figure out what reality is it this
you're on a goddamn convertible spaceship spending
a thousand miles an hour hurling through infinity
there's no meaning to this thing just keep making
shit. Keep making stuff. And then one day they're
going to be able to hit that switch and this
life will be born out of innovation and thinking
and progress and technology. And more than likely,
it's probably going to be what we're seeing that
these things are that you're, you're, you're
observing. I'm not observing them, but yeah.
Are you implying that they're us? I don't think
they are us, but I think they are what happens
when things keep going. Mm -hmm. It's not us
just like we're not monkeys, right? I'm not a
champ That's cool. They're from here is your
idea. No, no, no that this is what happens all
over the universe, right? Yeah, this is what
happened. Look, here's the thing. You know, I
went to see Brian Cox's He has this amazing live
show with Robin Ince where they they they have
these LED screens these huge screens with high
-resolution Depictions of the cosmos and one
of the most mind -blowing things was he has this
large -scale image of the universe and it shows
all the Individual galaxies the universe and
it just keeps moving through all these galaxies
in three dimensions and it's fucking incredible
But what's stunning is the relative uniformity
of it even at you know, I mean you're obviously
looking at incredibly small depiction of something
that's immensely large like a galaxy of hundreds
of billions of stars you're seeing it as this
little dot but this little dot that's flying
through space surrounded by other little darts
with very similarly spaced distances yeah so
Mike if we see uniformity in that form in terms
of like the distance between gals like so many
galaxies is so it's so similar they might vary
slightly and that slightly might be hundreds
of millions of light years right but but but
there's so much uniformity why would we not assume
that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere
and that all these things that you're seeing
that are so similar you do see Binary star systems
you do see single star systems like star But
there's also some some speculation that earth
and that our solar system was one time was a
binary star system, right? I mean, that's one
of the speculations about that that object that
they find outside the Kuiper belt that the thing
is ten times larger than earth they think it
might have been at one point in time a star,
but this this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't
we think that that has its same implications
biologically? That there's some sort of a biological
uniformity and that this happens given the right
sets of circumstances. It could be. You should
tell him some of the stuff that you've read that
you don't know is true. I mean, if the stuff
was true about the propulsion stuff, I mean,
anyway, he... Well, what have you read? What
have you read? What you saw, too. I mean, you
know? What are you talking about? Spill the beans
Bob. I got to poke the bear here. Get some more
liquor in you the Well, I mean The again the
the only thing I could verify was what I had
my hands on They were you know, there was talk
of weapon systems that there were different projects
Project Galileo project sidekick was supposed
to be weapon applications of the craft Project
Looking Glass had to do with time, any effects
of time in the craft. Now, I don't think, we're
not talking about making a time machine like
in science fiction, but we're talking about,
you know, small distortions, intentional distortions
of time, and how that can be used, you know,
as a, not as a, well, it was part of a weapon
program. How were you informed in this? These,
again, were just the small briefings that I read,
but Again, I don't really like to talk about
those because I don't have any information on
him and it was just, you know, small briefings.
But you told Commander Fravor that what he saw
might have been a time dilation. Well, it could
be, because gravity affects time, you know, space
-time. I'm sure you've heard of that. And, you
know, what Commander Fravor saw as he was in
the F -18 approaching it, he said he described
it as a a ping -pong ball in a cup and shaking
it back and forth. It was moving that fast. Now,
obviously, if there's anything inside there,
it's going to be battered to hell. But, you know,
my point was that, well, one of two things. Either
there's a gravitational envelope in there which
negates any inertia effects, or you are seeing
through a gravity distortion field. So, you know,
just like you're looking at a hot highway and
you see You know, an optical distortion going
through there. Well, the same thing happens in
gravity and the craft may not actually be moving
like that. It may just look like it because you're
seeing, you can only see it through the field.
So it may be making much more gentle moves. I'm
not saying that's it, but it has to be one of
the two. And the thing shows up 60 miles away.
They noticed it on radar. 60 seconds after it
left Commander Fravor, but it was at his cap
point, which is the next point he was destined
to go to, 60 miles away, and in 60 seconds on
radar, the same object ends up there. So it's
going a mile second? No. I think the radar just
picked it up in 60 seconds. Yeah, it could have
been there instantly, but yeah. We don't know.
Cycle time nobody knows that that's the whole
thing. So it cycles like radar cycles. Yeah,
it doesn't it doesn't sweep, but I mean it scans
Yeah, it's a planar array. So it just you know,
it scans around it random place The spy one does
the really cool. Yeah doesn't do the whole loop
anymore, right? The point the point is though
that the craft moved to his next location before
he knew where his next location was gonna be
Jesus and that's Mean that's well documented.
So that's a that's a pretty shocking piece of
information What's fascinating to me too is that
you were discussing this the the way this? Reactor
worked and that these things were not really
connected No, nothing is connected. There's no
wiring at all That freaks me the fuck out charge
your iPhone, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that's the that's a Well, I mean Tesla.
Yeah, I know again, but that's just simple electromagnetic
induction. Right, but I mean, Tesla, the scientist,
had this concept of... Right, that's what he
said. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. I
mean, for other people that don't know what I'm
saying, he wanted to send wireless electricity
through the sky, and Westinghouse was like, get
the fuck out of here with that. Like, when anybody
could just pull electricity out of the sky...
Can't meter it. Yeah, they couldn't. They couldn't
meter it. We had this talk in the car right over,
trying to chill him out, you know, we're talking
about Tesla, and how, you know, he couldn't be
metered, and how it all went down. So it's funny
you bring it up. Yeah, I mean, who knows what
would have happened in terms of innovation had
he been allowed to go forward with that. Well,
we probably wouldn't have computers. You think?
Yeah, I'm pretty positive. I mean, forget about
microelectronics. Well, this is dumping huge
amounts of electromagnetic energy in the air.
And yeah, we'd be able to wirelessly turn on
our lights, but... There'd be no radio communication
the interference would be something we could
would be overwhelming It would induce electric
currents and anything with a small wire on it.
So integrated circuits transistors would be Disintegrated
before they were even you know tested for operation.
So it would destroy us up. Yeah, it would have
stopped us dead we have It'd be great, you can
turn lighters on and heaters from all over the
place with no wires, but it would stop modern
electronics. And if we became dependent on it,
it would almost be like our dependence on fossil
fuels, although it's destructive, it's very difficult
for us to get off the nipple. It would have changed
the course of how we developed which is so interesting
when you talk about it a Civilization of the
star system didn't even start with fossil fuels.
They had 115 naturally on their planet and they're
like cool anti -gravity is pretty awesome Well
the fact that I think it's important that that
actually happened. Yeah It might have been stopped
in its tracks for a reason. Whoa and It's just
it's I think it's incredibly difficult for us
to imagine Technological progression under another
timeline other than the one that we've experienced.
Yeah, that's difficult if we imagine what this
Alien race must have been like and I mean God
Just just to be able to see something take like
I mean Obviously we've seen it in different life
forms, right? Like we see the life of certain
beetles in comparison to the life of certain
fish very very different existence very different
life cycles octopus yeah octopus I mean we see
all these different variables in terms of biological
entities on earth but we don't see it in terms
of technological innovation as we're the only
one that's intelligent that can innovate we have
intelligent creatures but they're in the ocean
the only other thing that are like us are dolphins
and orcas and whales and they don't have the
ability to manipulate their environment and subsequently
because they don't have the ability to manipulate
their environment we put them in fish tanks and
we're like get in the tank do some tricks right
You know, the only thing he saw in the craft,
if we're considering Bob's story, the only thing
that he saw in the craft that he related to,
that looked like a human could make, was this
honeycomb hatch, and I always love that because
you're like, obsessed with this thing that you
could recognize. You know, the rea-, yeah, I
only focus on that because it was the one thing
that I understood how it worked. What was it?
And it was, it was the access to the level below,
and it was, um, Well, you know if you take you
have a six pack of beer and you take out the
cardboard dividers Set it on the table. You can
put a lot of pressure on the top But if you push
it from the sides it collapses flat so it was
something like that in a honeycomb shape that
was essentially some sort of sheet metal and
You could walk on that in the upper layer but
if you took the corner stuck your finger finger
in and pushed it collapsed and made a an entryway
So I thought that was a really unique I'd never
seen that before and it was the only thing in
the craft that made absolute sense to me I said
ah we can make that and all that is is a hatchway
Was there any discussion about the materials
that were used to make the craft? I'm sure there
was but that was a metallurgy division had nothing
to do with us. So you never got a Not even the
slightest briefing. I don't even know if it was
a metal or it was ceramic It's I think it there's
a fine line between the two Now, one of the things
that's happened to you that has allowed people
to discredit you was there's obviously been some
sort of an effort to erase your past. Some sort
of an effort to erase your education history,
your employment history at Los Alamos. In fact,
the only way your employment history was proven
at Los Alamos was someone got a list, a directory
of the employees from the past. Read into it
and you were on that list So it proved that you
worked there even though people were trying to
deny and they were trying to use that as a way
to discredit You that you never did work at Los
Alamos. You weren't really a scientist What was
what was that like to experience? I mean, of
course we're talking about the 1980s the 1990s
when you could get away with something like that
Yeah, I obviously there are a lot less a lot
less records on computers at that time. It was
still file cabinets and folders But, yeah, that
was frightening. That was one of the first things
I saw. What happened? I think George Knapp was
the first one that uncovered that. I mean, he
saw my birth certificate disappear. It disappeared.
There was no record of you being there. Yeah,
there was no record of that. His mom tells me
about that. It was frightening for her. He's
got a real family. He's a real person. It was
frightening for her. But the Los Alamos thing
really surprised me. and that they were so adamant
that no this guy never worked here don't be ridiculous
and George went back and forth you know for I
got the letters on the wall yeah months I mean
it was ridiculous but fortunately somebody came
up with a 1982 phone book directory I mean and
also uh originally I told you uh you know, when
I worked there, I was on the front page of the
paper, so they were still able to archive, you
know, bring that back from the archives, and
you know, Bob Lazar, a physicist working here
at Los Alamos, so there was at least something
there, but somehow George came up with the phone
directory. And then Bob took George with cameras
into Los Alamos. Oh yeah, yeah, so we flew out
there and I said, look, come on in, I'll show
you where I worked, we'll go in, we'll meet people,
and George went with me, and And you knew how
to navigate the place, so you'd obviously been
there. Oh yeah, and you know, met people, and
you know, so there's no problem. Los Alamos was
also the place where they had the machine that
was able to read the size of your digits. No,
no, that wasn't Los Alamos. That was S4. That
was S4. And explain that. So, now this was back
in the 80s. And this was back in the 80s where,
when you discussed this, people were like, this
doesn't even exist. Yeah. Okay. What was it?
It was a way... You know this is before fingerprint
scanners and you know and anything of. Anything
any high resolution scanner at that time so what
it was was a device that had a little picture
of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it so
you could jam your hand in there and there was
a bright light above it and a sensor underneath
and when you put your hand in there the light
would turn on and it would measure the bones
in your finger because the light shown through
your bones and. Apparently, the length of the
bones in your fingers are extremely unique and
easy to measure. And they use that. When you
put your hands on there, the light would turn
on and your badge would pop out. Oh, there it
is. That's it. And I tried to describe this to
people, and they said, that is the most ridiculous
thing we've ever heard. And I said, hey, my badge
came out of that thing. I put my hand on it.
Badge popped out and that's how I could open
the doors and get into as for and. You know,
and everybody discredited that. They said it
was bullshit. It was science fiction. And Jeremy,
you found this. I found it through a good friend
of mine named Tyler Rogoway. And he had some
good sources inside of Area 52 where they also
used these for the stealth program right around
that time. So now I've got all these people that
worked within who, you know, said only if you're
in certain programs would we use this technology.
It was kind of shit actually. They didn't keep
it for very long. Beginning of biometrics. So
I was able to reveal it in my film. I kept my
mouth shut. Until I showed it to Bob, you know
in the movie is the first time he saw it was
how you see it in the documentary That's his
genuine reaction getting goosebumps. That was
a great idea that the way you did it Thank you,
man, because you know what? Guess what? I'm actually
trying to see if he's telling the truth. That's
how I started You know that I started so it was
really cool to see that and that you get to see
it his actual reaction Has that been verified
by other people? Yeah, so yeah, so to me it has
personally I get emails every day and people
are telling me where these are used and how they're
used in the semi photos. I got a lot of photos
of identity mats now. Well, how they were used,
right? They're not how they were used. But yeah,
but I don't the most recent one was way more
recent than I thought in another country. But
yeah, that technology was used. So what's so
funny is that this technology Even in the area
52 where they'd use them for Tonopah one of the
guys who will go on camera when he will do an
interview with me He was a technician for one
of these and and he hated them because they were
really bad They always broke down and never and
he was a technician for him now He won't tell
me where if he worked at area 52, so it's probably
Tonopah It's very separated even on base. But
yeah, so There was that yeah, there is your education
record That was also like what happened with
that? Well, that disappeared also. You know,
that I've never gone anywhere for education.
I've never attended any classes at Caltech. I
never attended anything at MIT. You did attend
classes in those places. I did attend classes
in those places. Do you know anybody that you
went to school with? Yes, I do. And have they
verified that they went to school with you? Well,
I gave Jeremy some names. But yeah, the reason
I don't say these names publicly is because every
single time I mention a name, somebody gets in
trouble. They don't want to be. Of course. Yeah.
Yeah, of course. But what is that experience
like seeing your birth certificate erased, seeing
your employment history? Well, it's frightening.
It's absolutely frightening. It's also the fuel
that the debunkers use, the so -called air -quote
skeptics. I don't like the term skeptics. I'm
going to say this publicly because I really have
only said this privately. I think it's a sloppy,
lazy way to look at things, to just be a skeptic.
Look, at this point... I want people to be objective.
And I think there's a lot of things you should
be skeptical of. I think you should look at things
and look at things... From a hardline science
perspective you should be objective But the idea
of skeptics the problem with that is you're always
looking for things to be bullshit Yeah, and I
think that's dangerous because I think some things
aren't bullshit confirmation bias on the other
end You're just deciding to take a square thing
and put it in a round hole no matter what and
I find a lot of them to be lazy A lot of them
to be lazy thinkers sure because they're always
putting it into that box instead of going hmm
Instead of just separating their ego, they're
trying they're playing a game and the game is
calling bullshit I want to call bullshit and
I'm gonna line up all these reasons why it's
bullshit and I'm gonna ignore anything that might
be Contrary to that definition. Yeah, that does
every time I'm thinking I'm gonna catch him in
something, you know all along this process I
found dr. Crangle. He came forward and said I
was in security briefings with Bob Lazar the
physicist at Los Alamos He went on the record
with me now the other people I talked with why
won't they go on the record with me? Because
they're still working there So that that's the
difference right? What is that? What can the
public have right? Even if they're not working
there, you know, they want to live their lives
What I mean, obviously people have seen what's
happened to you Mike Thigpen After 30 years.
Yeah, really if you look at all the information
on You know concerning my accounts. That's that's
verifiable. It can't Possibly be a bullshit story
anymore. It's really way past that point Yeah,
I mean that was my big pen is I mean how could
I was possibly know? So Mike Thigpen was the
guy that did the security clearances to go to
the bit one of the guys that was a guy that you
Worked with he said he did Right and and George
Knapp, you know George didn't believe him George
put him through four polygraph tests, right?
He tried to see man. This is a big risk. It sounds
interesting But let's see if he's telling the
truth. One of the things was Bob said there's
a guy named Mike Thigpen He did security clearances
for the base and that's a weird name. It's a
very specific For 30 years George found this
guy in this weird department that he didn't even
know it was Mike Thigpen The guy wouldn't talk
to me, ghosted him. Totally ghosted him for 30
years. Used Facebook and Google image match through
his children. I was able to find him after 30
years. And I talked to him three times on the
phone. He lives on the East Coast. He almost
went on camera with me. Confirmed that he did
security clearances for the base in 1989. Confirmed
he remembers Bob Lazar. And what you don't know
is there's a handwritten note that a friend of
yours has from Mike. I know, I'm like, give it
to you later, but that is real, that is actual.
A handwritten note that says what? This is new
to me. When they do security clearances, they
go through all your friends and family. And they
go to your friends and family, yeah. So this
is to Bob, and I had people come to me for a
friend of mine that's serving, and they're doing
a security clearance for him, and even though
I'm like... the UFO guy, they did, you know,
the f -bag, come and visit my house and make
sure that they talk about my friend and they
lift a little card. And when my wife told him
to get away, because she didn't know who they
were, they left a little card. It's super cute
now. Back then it was a handwritten note and
his friend has it for him that you haven't seen
in two decades. So if you're listening... How
come you're telling me this now? I don't know
why I'm telling this to you. What is this card?
It's just a little handwritten note with Mike
Thigpen's signature. A card like a postcard.
Like a piece of paper that he left on the door
saying when Bob gets back or whatever it says
on it So it's just another little funny thing.
I found the guy. He does the security clearances
He admitted to me he did it and he admitted to
me He was dodging George Knapp because when George
said his name on the rate on the on the news
He dropped his fork into his steak earned his
potatoes or whatever and he's looking at his
wife He was in trouble his name is never supposed
to be out there like it's just a security clearance
guy But you don't want national attention associated
with anything Bob has to say But anyway this
unique name Bob said for 30 years and the guy
ghosted George Knapp George could prove he existed
He actually talked to me man. He talked to me
three times. He almost went on camera with me
It's just crazy. What what do you what happens
after 30 years? You just get more info Well,
that's one of the reasons why when you and me
and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation
on the phone Yeah, I said I think What we can
do with this podcast is important I really do.
I think it's important for people to hear this
from you in a very clear, just very concise way.
And if you examine all the information that you've
said today, if you look at all the things that
the detractors have said, if you look at all
of the new recent evidence that's coming out
and all these really high -level people in the
military and the government that are discussing
this, it gives you far more credibility. than
you would have had in the 1980s when this came
out. Fuck yes, you can't ignore his story just
because you don't like it anymore. That's why
I thought it was important that you come out
and refresh the world's memory and let people
know. And like I said, I've been, I mean, I don't
wanna say I'm a fan of yours, but I guess I'm
a fan of yours. As a human being, I'm a fan of
yours. But I've been following you for decades.
I've been following the story for decades. No
kidding. I have VHS tapes at home. Bob, like
a lot of the world has? Yeah. It's crazy. anybody
that has any sort of vested interest or even
just a fascination with UFOs has followed your
story because there's no one else. There's no
one else that comes forward. There's some guy
who said I worked underground with the aliens
They shot my hand off like there's a bunch of
like wacky dudes They're underground. There's
bases. They're shooting lasers through the earth's
crust and they move them at light speed There's
a lot of those guys. They seem schizophrenic.
They seem crazy. They might even be disinformation
agents They might be people that are designed
to muddy the waters, which for sure has happened
People are coming forward though. Now it's amazing
by doing this what you're doing You're providing
an opportunity just for Bob to tell a story,
you know, believe it or not he can tell his story.
It's amazing because more people will come forward
now that are involved with these projects. They'll
come forward to you, to me, they're coming forward.
And so what you've done here is provide that
opportunity if they need it. And it's amazing.
I just want to say, Bob. Just don't come forward
to me. No, don't come forward to Bob. Why were
you freaking nauseous at the beginning of this?
Like so. Upset why was your why'd you have a
migraine cuz that started off so hard my god
I was sitting here like did this why are you
asking him why because obvious? Anxiety the guy's
gone to 30 fucking years of being persecuted.
They raised his birth certificate I just want
to hear hear from I want to hear him say I want
them why do I have to say that you don't just
get it I step out. Okay, settle down Yeah, I
well I get it you were you were it was hard for
you to get him here You know and I appreciate
us. Yeah you Well, you did a lot more than me.
What really annoys me are the people that are
saying, you know, you guys just came up with
the story to make a bunch of money or get a bunch
of, you know, attention. That's a good point,
so please explain that. First of all, I don't
get any money out of this at all, and I didn't
even let you guys buy plane tickets for me to
come out here or anything. I mean, any time,
like when Jeremy, uh, pre - Previewed I guess
the movie up in Michigan. I mean they it brought
in like a couple thousand dollars I made sure
that two thousand dollars went to science programs
at the local high schools there. I don't dirty
money I don't want to touch. I don't take any
money from this stuff and as far as attention
I hate fucking attention. I don't like being
on shows. I just want to kind of hide in the
corner and do my own thing. So that's I got enough
hugs when I was a kid. Okay, I don't need any
attention. So now that if you if you think somehow
we came up with this thing, then you got to tell
me why we did it. Well, you've done a great job
of making sure you have your bases covered in
that regard that you haven't profited off of
this and like you said that you have donated
whatever money that came your way to science
programs. It's I mean, It doesn't make any sense
any other way. I mean, what I've gotten out of
here is what I thought I was going to get out
of here when I watched the documentary, that
what you're saying makes sense. It doesn't make
sense that it's bullshit. That happened exactly
like I said it did, Joe. I believe you. In closing,
is there anything else you'd like to say? No,
I can't think of anything other than really don't
come and try to visit me. Well, I know that you
have paid a huge personal cost to get this information
out and I mean Maybe you didn't understand what
that cost would have been when you first initially
came forward with a story But over the past 30
years, it's been immense. It's been great And
I just want to thank you for that and thank you
for all these people that would not have gotten
this information It would not have really had
this story any other way. No, thanks Joe. Thank
you And thank you, Jeremy. And one more time,
the documentary is available on Netflix right
now. Yeah, it's called Bob Lazar, Area 51, and
Flying Saucers. All right. That's it, folks.
Good night.