Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana.
And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease.
And Diana, summer's coming up. And I think it's
only fair we let our listeners know that we're
going to take a little bit of a break. TBD, TBD,
all of it will continue. Good things will come.
But, you know, everyone wants a break in the
summer, right? Absolutely. We definitely need
a break. This podcasting business is... You know,
a lot. It's serious stuff. It's serious work.
And as much as we love it, we're going to take
our summer off. So we will have two more episodes
to make it an even 20. And then we'll take the
summer off. And then we'll see you all back in
around September. So just wanted to give you
a heads up. And if you have any ideas about what
we should talk about in the fall as we await
season two with Baited Breath, you know, obviously
our socials are open to suggestions. They really
are. They're always open. All right. Sounds good.
So this is episode 18. We're talking about hockey.
Finally. I know you've been waiting for this
for so long. And we have an awesome guest. Our
guest is Anusha's friend from college, and she's
a hockey fanatic and a lover of romance and a
lover of Jacob Tierney's work. So the perfect
guest, truly, for this episode. Truly, truly
the perfect guest. Joining us today is Janethi
Daniel. Janethi is a social worker and a journalist
and also... a housing and homelessness advocate
who lives in LA. No, so she's my friend. Now
that we've gotten their credentials. Welcome,
Jay and Thee. So let's let's explain for the
podcast audience really quick. Anusha and I are
college friends. A lot of Indians grow up with
American nicknames. My American nickname was
Jamie when I was growing up, but I go by Janethi
professionally. So just call me whatever you
want on this podcast. It's totally cool. So first
of all, again, thank you, Anusha and Diana, so
much for having me on. I'm so proud of you guys
for having the podcast and getting a slice of
this perspective from the... moms who have watched
the show in particular. It just hits the mark
in terms of the demo, like one of the most important
demographics of people watching this show. So
thank you guys so much for having me. And this
community is just so awesome. We ask all of our
guests this question. What is your origin story?
Like, how did you get into the show? Kind of
separate hobbies, separate interests brought
me to crossroads of heated rivalry. As Anusha
knows, I've been a hockey fan all of my life.
Anusha, both myself and my twin sister. We grew
up as huge New York Rangers fans. Grew up in
New York, grew up in the suburbs of New York,
New York City. Since I was 10 years old, die
hard. New York Rangers fan. So hockey has always
been a part of my life. Definitely on and off
with being able to spend time paying attention
to it because it takes a lot of time. And if
you're going to games, it takes a lot of money.
And now I live in L .A., so I'm not going to
Rangers games as much. But I was very lucky to
marry a husband 13 years ago. Our anniversary
was last week. So 16 years together, actually.
And literally the first fact that I discovered
about him was that he was also a born. and raised
true blue New York Rangers fan. Like when we
met and we found that out about each other, our
minds exploded. We were like, how could this
possibly be? And for him, he's like a normal
white guy from Queens, New York, passionate Rangers
fan because of his grandfather. Him and his grandfather
used to watch hockey together. But I'm an atypical
hockey fan just at the time I was growing up,
young Asian woman. Not a lot of Asians at MSG
going to hockey games. We were it in the 90s,
me and my sister. And then I met in college some
other Asian hockey fans. Definitely on the cusp
of something different of the changing demographics
of the NHL fandom. Passionate hockey fan all
of my life and always just followed the NHL.
And to this day, subscribe to NHL Center Eyes.
We watch games and that's just a fabric of our
lives. But then with heated rivalry, of course,
I knew that heated rivalry was coming out. But
the way that I found out about it was actually
kind of roundabout. not like in the hockey way,
but actually in another hobby of mine where I
love Asian dramas, as many people do. I love
Korean dramas, I love Japanese dramas, but I
particularly love the subset of queer dramas.
There is tremendous queer media coming out of
Asia, especially by way of a rise in the 1970s
of queer. content and queer themes coming out
of manga in Japan. And I'm not going to get into
the history of that. But long story short, those
dramas becoming ever more accessible through
streaming services. And so when Heated Rivalry
kind of was coming down the pike and Crave Canada
was promoting it and people were getting really
excited about it. I had no idea why people were
getting excited about it because I did not know
about the books by Rachel Reed. But I was paying
attention to it because the online queer drama
fandoms were saying, hey, this show from North
America. America is coming out. About a month
before the show dropped, I was like, you know
what? Let me just read the book. I had no idea
that Game Changers was a series. I was just like,
let me just prep myself because I got this. hockey
background. I know about queer dramas. Let me
just let me find out what happens in this book.
And I read the book in a day and a half. And
I was like, Oh, my fuck. Whoa, this book, this
book is so good. Rachel Reed calls it smut. But
she's a very good writer. It's a remarkable example
of the of the romance genre. It has that Canadian
humor essence of things just not being very explosive
or overblown. I was like, this is damn good writing.
I read the whole series, watched the show, watched
the show again, read the whole series again,
and was like, this is a category of art that
Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed have really tapped
into that I haven't even read any other hockey
books. Rachel's are the only ones that I've read
because I kind of think that's the pinnacle of
the genre. I'll maybe read other hockey romances
down the road, but they get it. They get it.
the crossroads of hockey and the romance literature
genre extremely well. I recently met the operator
of a hockey -themed online clothing store. She
has a very robust Instagram presence. Her account
is called Double Hockey Sticks. Her first name
is Lacey. She's just gained hundreds of thousands
of followers over the past few months, not only
because of heated rivalry and the new hockey
fans coming out because of HR, but also because
of the recent. olympic scandals happening in
actual ice hockey um and we were talking about
how small the crossroads is of actual hockey
fans and heated rivalry the crossroads is actually
really small jacob put together an amazing show
i've since watched a tremendous amount of queer
media from around the world and heated rivalry
happens to be a very excellent example. It is
such a high quality show. They did so much on
so little, but you guys know this. So that's
my origin story. So much like richness that came
out of there. When I say Jay and her sister are
hockey fanatics, when you came to visit me in
Pittsburgh and we happened to run into LeTang
and you were giving him the stink ride. We were
at a restaurant in Pittsburgh and Anusha's...
husband is razzing us because I think it was
the Rangers that had lost against the Pens in
Pittsburgh. And then we were at a restaurant
where the Pens, including Chris Letang, was celebrating.
And me and Amy are like, no, we're not going
to go up to the Pens. They suck. They suck. And
Gary goes right up to the table and shakes Letang's
hand and says, congratulations, boys. So LifeLog
hockey fanatic overlapping with queer media consumer.
overlapping with someone who loves the romance
genre, overlapping with someone who has also
watched other Jacob Tierney shows. I think there
might be one of you in the whole world. Yeah,
I think there's one of you in the whole world.
Nice find, Anusha. Nice find. Who would have
thought that your college friend would be so
useful so much later in life to both of us? Yeah,
you were made. You were literally made for this
moment. Do you want to be a co -host? You could
probably be the single host. I will say this
is not the first time I've been asked to be on
a heated rivalry related podcast. But the thing
that I say to people who have done other podcasts
or who are even doing other heated rivalry podcasts
is like, I have to talk about hockey. I have
to talk about actual ice hockey. And they're
like, yeah, no, we know nothing about ice hockey.
And I'm like, yeah, now's the time for you to
learn a little bit, but also. The environment
in which one could become an ice hockey fan at
the moment, at least if you're interested in
men's hockey, it's still a little... I think
people start to scratch the surface of becoming
a, like looking into becoming a fan of men's
hockey specifically. And they're like, oh yeah,
there's a lot of roadblocks here. There's a lot
of obstacles here. But at the same time... heated
rivalry fans becoming hockey fans and discovering
the Professional Women's Hockey League, which
is experiencing its own incredible moment of
investment and success. The skill set of women's
hockey players has never been higher. That's
also been an amazing entry point for heated rivalry
fans to get to know about hockey. I mean, while
the internet makes everything easy, knowing as
much as we know about actual hockey players,
now male hockey players, like... you know, heterosexual,
straight, male, conservative, male hockey players.
It actually makes those entry points a bit more
difficult. That's really interesting to dig into.
Yeah, that's the perfect segue, I think, to the
next part of the conversation. Diane, I don't
know about you, but I have not picked up another
smutty hockey male -male romance outside of Heated
Rivalry and the Game Changers series. But there's
a lot of them, actually. But what do you think
that is? You talked about the entry point, but
why hockey? I mean, I have thought so much about
this. Because I know so much about hockey and
I know so much about hockey culture, that's my
lens. And so I don't know if what I'm about to
say will relate to others, but it probably will,
which is that the stereotype of hockey. And hockey
is the least popular of the four major sports.
by the way, you know, like in terms of drawing
audiences and ticket sales and revenue and that
sort of thing. My lens in terms of being both
a hockey fan and trying to pull out and step
into somebody else's shoes is that hockey is
such a like an over masculine sport. When you
hear other athletes from other sports talk about
hockey, if you have guest athletes, like say
baseball players watching a hockey game and like
you see social media posts about what they're
saying. As they're watching the game, very often
other athletes are saying about the hockey players,
this is the most elite sport because you have
to have. the widest skill set. You have to be
good on skates. You have to be fast on skates.
You have to have stick handling skills. You have
to be big. You have to be built. You have to
be able to absorb hits. So there's just this
masculinity of it all. It's very strong and very
apparent. I think hockey lends itself to the
romance genre, particularly queer romance, because
of a collision of these masculine ideals with
the conversation about discovering queerness,
the hockey culture. is what keeps them inside.
And the driver of the queer romantic story is
that they have to question the masculinity of
the hockey culture that's keeping them in the
closet. Particularly, like I'm always so impacted
by the conversation that Troy Barrett has with
Ilya as they're walking away from the Kingfisher.
where Troy says to Ilya, hockey guys would more
likely want to be accused of murder than liking
dick. That encapsulates so well the hockey culture
of the locker room, which when I was growing
up in the 90s, we didn't have cameras in the
locker rooms. And there's a part of me as an
old school hockey fan that's like, I actually
don't want to see that. That's what 90s hockey
culture actually told me about. There's some
stuff that I don't want to know about. Because
it's so hyper -masculine, it's because of this
chasm -wide collision of the hyper -masculine
culture of hockey culture being put under the
microscope as an individual character literally
lives out what it means to be queer and to be
gay and questioning that hockey culture is the
metaphor for greater society, which is exactly
what Rachel Reid, I think, intends to do. I love
that you said there's this chasm because our
second episode was really this. core concept
of masculinity, right? That intersection of hockey
and overt, aggressive, performative masculinity.
One thing I could talk a little bit about is
the forced masculinity of hockey, which is very
well known. If you're an elite hockey player
as a youngster, you can at once get away with
a lot of bad behavior. And then also, you are
highly likely to have been subjected to an immense
amount of pressure and probably psychological
abuse. from somewhere in the system whether it
was your parents or coaches or teammates without
even knowing it you might have experienced it
without even knowing it the people who are the
abusers also might not know that they are being
abusers because the cycle these cycles of trauma
these cycles of abuse are so embedded in hockey
culture to pressure elite athletes to be elite
i would propose that that feeds into a hyper
masculine cycle of behavior in the locker room
where you are expected to conform so heavily
to hockey's tenants of humility brotherhood,
the team comes first. Every day I see, I don't
necessarily have hope, but I see, every day I
see younger players coming in and challenging
those notions. I see Zane Parake from the Calgary
Flames complaining that older players are really
boring and he doesn't want to be like that. And
then he has to go to the, take a press conference
and apologize for saying that. He does, but then
he's still a spectacular player on the ice. So
19 year old, go kick ass, go be great. Trevor
Zegras from Anusha's beloved Philadelphia Flyers
has to be traded from the Ducks to the Flyers
because he's just too out there and he's too
individual and he's lip syncing to songs on the
bench and he's like this fun guy. And that behavior
doesn't... work for all coaches who want these
dudes to conform. And then he goes to the Flyers
and he's thriving. Now we've seen two Swedish
hockey players this season take mental health
leaves in Linus Allmark from the Senators and
just now Hedman from the Tampa Bay Lightning,
who just made an announcement literally today
that he had taken a really long break for mental
health reasons. And so there are individuals
fighting against. these notions. So one by one,
I feel like these notions are being questioned,
but still there's an overarching and it starts
from their youth and over like these masculine
tenets are really built into hockey culture that
as a fan, if you've been a fan for a while. You
don't even need to verbalize them. You naturally
know that these guys have been through the emotional
wringer and they haven't been allowed to really
express what they've gone through. What you're
saying reminds me of this line that Ilya says.
He says something like, I love Russia, but Russia
doesn't love me. We're talking about the chasm
between the overly masculine world of hockey
and this like softer place that's available for
these really young. players to come out so that's
a clash then you also have this sort of love
of the game love of the sport clashing with your
sense of identity that's a clash right the rivalry
in the story is shane and ilia but the actual
bigger not rivalry but things that are set up
to be polar opposites are actually the culture
itself which in many ways is also an echo of
a lot of the other kind of threads we've woven
through this podcast, the immigrant culture.
We already talked about masculinity. We talked
about neurodivergence, like all these places
where you were not allowed to be yourself. kind
of coming back and roosting. And then you have
to figure out how to express yourself. And maybe
that's why hockey, if you think about football,
you have players who are famous for their own
individual touchdown dance or whatever, right?
They have these giant, larger -than -life personalities,
whereas I don't think that's the way hockey is
really treated. No, total opposite. Yeah. These
are big physical players on these tiny little
skates. In a way, it's very almost dance -like.
It's very hard to figure out who's making the
play at that moment because it's moving fast.
But the idea is they have to be synchronous.
Yeah, yeah. They can't be individuals on the
ice. And it sounds like that translates to all
parts of your identity if you're an elite athlete.
That 100%. I mean, what you just described there
was perfect by way of describing how the teamwork
aspect needs to function as a game. That is part
of the fabric, this crossroads of how you need
to behave in the locker room. Having different
viewpoints in a locker room from what we understand
as hockey fans, especially lifelong hockey fans,
being different in the locker room is a really
big deal. And Rachel Reed writes Shane and Jacob
Tierney. create Shane as the perfect metaphor
for that. Shane is the perfect metaphor for being
different in the locker room and literally not
having a single tool on how to understand it.
Some people online heavily criticize Shane's
mom for not creating an environment in which
Shane could have felt safe for coming out. That
wasn't on Shane's mom. Shane's mom was certainly
hockey culture, but that wasn't on Shane's mom.
Hockey culture made Shane's mom. Shane was just
as much doing the hockey stuff. As Shane's mom
was doing the hockey, I don't blame Shane's mom
for not sort of like thinking in her head, my
household needs to be a household that's safe
for Shane to come out. Like it was only as Shane
was very much an adult that David and Yuna were
thinking, Shane might be gay. You know, like
he's not really dating anybody. He might be gay.
That was like years into his hockey career. So
just Shane is just like the perfect, perfect,
can't think of a character that's better written,
perfect metaphor for why. coming out could be
so hard for a hockey player. You said about there's
the love for the game, but then huge questions
about the culture. Definitely start following
a great Instagram account of Matt Kenny. I think
his IG is matt .runs. He's so great. He got viral
because Rachel Reed reposted a Instagram story
that he had filmed in December. of him reacting
to heated rivalry. He grew up in Canada, grew
up in Ontario, hockey player in the Toronto Maple
Leafs farm system, and had to walk away. The
culture was just too suffocating for him. He
needed to come out. He needed to live his truth.
And the trauma of it all really it so much of
his life, you know, he was diagnosed with MS
and he was having suicidal ideations and just
has has kind of reformed his life in Palm Springs,
California. And his outspokenness about hockey
culture versus his experience of being what he
calls himself a gay hockey player now, which
he is. That's that's who he is. Such exquisite
content, such vulnerable, honest content that
he's creating about his hockey experience that
resonates so much, not just with fans who know
about hockey culture and toxic hockey culture,
but also hockey players himself. And then there's
the Instagram account Peloton Jesse of another
former hockey player that came out as gay. He
doesn't talk about this too much publicly, but
I think he just went on a podcast to talk about
it more recently. But the only out active professional
hockey player, Luke Prokop, who plays in the
Edmonton Oilers farm system. These are all guys
that are just beginning to like chip at the surface
of this, this divide of like the love for the
game versus, you know, like how do you kind of
like punch down on toxic hockey culture? Like
it's only going to be an individual effort until
me speaking. kind of cynically here until it
becomes more marketable, until it becomes better
for like a healthier environment for sponsors
to be able to support years coming out will lead
probably like to helping to make the culture
a little less toxic. Can I read you guys something
that I found? It's an advertisement for clearly
more than your average recreational hockey kid.
It's just probably. What are these hockey camps?
Clearly for kids. The title of this part of the
homepage, it says Unlocking Your Hockey Identity,
A Guide for Ambitious Players. Hockey player
archetypes are defined roles that describe how
a player creates value on ice. Understanding
your archetype gives structure to your development,
helping you train with purpose and play a role
that translates at higher levels. When I read
that, I was like, my God. You're coming in as
a child, right? Because all these sports players
competing at these elite levels are children.
And you're already fitting yourself into archetypes.
As I'm learning more about hockey culture, archetypes
aren't just like center, you know, wing, left
wing, right wing, defenders. I mean, there's
like snipers and playmakers, which Shane is.
And, you know, like so many. like categories
of people. And it's like very clearly intertwined
in these children's identities. This is bred
into them. Yep. And it's patriarchal and it's
hierarchical. How does a child separate their
identity as a person with their identity as a
hockey player? I mean, that's Shane's fundamental
dilemma. Right. But he cannot figure that out.
And that in many ways is also Ilya's fundamental
dilemma, too. I think I always agreed with you,
Diana, that like you both. What did you say about
Ilya and hockey like Ilya? Well, it's not even.
what I said. It's what Rachel has said numerous
times. For Ilya, hockey is an escape. He loves
it, but it was always just an escape. Whereas
for Shane, it is his life. He plays hockey because
he loves hockey. It's the only thing he's ever
known, and it's more important to him than anything
else. They love hockey a different way, which
is why I think it's easier for Ilya to believe
that he can give it up for Shane rather than
Shane, right? As we know, at the end of Heated
Valor, when Ilya's like, I want to come out.
I want to tell everybody. Shane's like, absolutely
not. We are sticking to the plan because for
Shane, his hockey career is the most important
thing to him. For Ilya, it really isn't. Now
that he's, quote unquote, already escaped Russia,
he no longer really needs hockey for that escape.
Right. That's such an interesting dynamic because
like you're tweezing apart the elements of your
own personal identity and your identity as a
hockey player. But if you have these. archetypes
that you're supposed to mold yourself into, then
how are you supposed to get yourself out of it?
Once you retire or once you leave, it just becomes
too toxic to to survive. I guess it's a good
thing they retire early. They're still young.
But at the same time, whenever they're having
this conversation, once we retire, we could be
together for real. Oh, my God, you still have
like 10 years at least. And you're going to wait
all that time. And then what? You know, when
you when you're talking about all of this, I'm
really naive. I really am because it just makes
me sad. Like I sit here and I listen and I'm
like, that's just sad to me. One of the reasons
I probably never cared much about sports because
it's all so toxic to me. And yeah, I'm a soccer
mom. My kid loves soccer. He's starting to get
really into it way more serious. He's been playing
it since he was five, but not in any serious
capacity. Now he's actually he's 12. He's in
a good league. And as a soccer mom, you know,
I sit there and I look around and I see how other
parents talk to their kids. And it's so toxic
and I cannot stand it. On some level, I understand
that maybe that's necessary, right? Like on some
level, I understand that you need to tell your
kids, suck it up. Your ankle hurts. Just walk
it off, right? But I also cannot do that. I'm
also not that person. Because I'm not that person,
am I screwing over my son's potential career
for the future, right? Because I'm more of like...
It's OK, baby, like put some ice on it. Rest.
Maybe you're going to take a break next week.
I will never use the language that they that
I see some parents use for their children. You
know, I cringe. I cringe. My heart hurts for
some of these kids. And, you know, and that's
soccer. I think hockey is even more toxic. You
know, it all makes me sad and that makes me feel
naive because these sports give so many opportunities
to so many people, starting with high school
and college and whatever else. But at the same
time, at what cost? At what cost do they give
up? these opportunities and I don't know I'm
not made for it I'm just not made for any of
it I think that you've hit the nail on the head
it's It's when it becomes the only means for
you to prove yourself. Because like, I will say
that for me, I was pushed educationally in a
way that I don't envision myself doing for my
own child. We're all children of immigrants,
right? Like we get this part, Jamie, Jayanti,
you do too. Like, you know, the push creates
this really negative association to the thing
that you're supposed to be driving yourself towards.
that you may actually love. Obviously, I wanted
to use my smarts to get where I needed to go.
It's just, was I ready for that amount of force
and pressure to come down upon? So that's a very
complicated dynamic. I see that in other places
too. We've talked about in other episodes and
what you brought up is the cycle, the cycle of
trauma, the cycle of these narratives, the cycle
of toxic masculinity, the cycle of pressure,
cycle of... not being able to be yourself, right?
Because my kid's not going to Kumon. My mom was
like, are they going to Kumon? I'm not pushing
my kid to go to Kumon. But am I like keeping
him or her for being the next math genius? I
don't know. Maybe. Well, it's funny, Anusha,
because like side note, I was not pushed that
much academically, even though school, college,
there's no question of where you're going to
do that or not. But I wish I were because I do
feel like there was some potential that was untapped.
Right. So like it's so it's so interesting. That's
that's an interesting thing. To me. And so it's
a tightrope. But like also with sports, right?
You're functioning regardless of how I am, which
I wanted softer. I wanted more being gentle.
You still have to understand that you are functioning
within the system at hand. But the system sucks
so badly. And I'm just like, well, fix the system.
But I'm not fixing the system. You know, by the
time they fix the system, it's going to be too
late for my kid, right? There's all this like
duplicity that it's really difficult to navigate
as a sports parent. I can't even imagine anything
else. I love hearing your perspective, Diana,
because again, the lens that I come to heated
rivalry from is the hockey lens. That's like
the first, even despite my passion for queer
media, queer dramas, I see two hockey players
and I'm like, hockey, hockey, hockey. So the,
and I'm saying this positively, the bias that
you bring about how sports happens from youth.
to adult and the toxicity that you see from that
pipeline from young athletes to professional
athletes. It's so important for me to hear because
my daughter's just starting gymnastics and she
happens to take gymnastics, interestingly, at
UCLA, which has a phenomenal gymnastics facility
and club and competitive teams. But dude, gymnastics,
man, like gymnastics in America. When you think
about gymnastics in America, you think about
what happened to young female athletes over the
decades. Think about abusive coaching. Think
about what the abuse of coaching led to. Unthinkable
physical abuse and psychological abuse on these
young athletes. The mental health breaks that...
young gymnasts now are very famous for taking,
criticized for taking, but they still become
champions. My God, Diana, what you said is it's
just so, so important for us to like sit with
and think about in response, especially as parents,
in reflection and response to like how we're
thinking and learning about sports vis -a -vis
heated rivalry. And then also thinking about,
again, going back to Shane and Yuna's experience,
how can we as parents create healthy environments
in which our kids can do anything they want,
do it as well as they can? And do you really
need negativity as a motivating factor or pressure
as a motivating factor to get our kids to help
our kids to achieve what we think that they can
achieve? I actually think my daughter could be
a really great gymnast. But to Anusha's point
about I grew up with Indian immigrant parents
myself, and there's no way I'm ever going to
push my kids the way that my parents push my
kids. But are there different tactics that I
could learn? um to be a healthy and engaged parent
while also pushing my kid to thrive and to succeed
and frankly as a school parent and as a high
like half sports parent myself diane i don't
know if this is your experience but it's not
like the sport that my kid is participating in
is actually interacting with me to help teach
me how to be a healthier engaged parent as well
like the coaches are Not coaches are coaching.
The coaches are not telling me stop screaming
from the sidelines. Not that I am anyway. But
we're in our society and our culture. Does that
engagement come from? I love thinking about where
different places people are coming from with
heated rivalry and the biases. Like if somebody
was really like actually anti hockey or anti
sports coming into watching heated rivalry or
reading the book. I think that's actually fascinating
to me. And how does that lens help you understand
the content? I think hockey for me is like a.
side a sidebar I know it's there I know the reason
it's there but it's not something I focus on
much I watch a lot of edits of the show and like
whenever there's like an edit that they put the
just like the hockey together I'm like oh shit
this show has hockey in it I always I always
forget. My very first chat about the show was
my only complaint about heated rivalry. Not enough
hockey. I needed more hockey. I needed more games.
And Rachel Reed actually writes hockey so well.
Let's talk about that part, because that was
one of our questions. Like, what do you think
the background that Jacob and Rachel had as love
of the game hockey fans? this intersection of
this like now ginormous, massive hit. You're
talking, we're talking about how to instill change.
You know, there are two things that you said.
You said right now it's the change can only come
from one person at a time. And I'm thinking Scott
Hunter coming out indelibly changed Shane and
Ilya, but now kind of going meta. Rachel Reed
and Jacob Tierney are huge hockey fans. They
also, as a gay man and a writer of this particular
type of book, they're traversing this tightrope.
How do they traverse this tightrope? And what
does this mean for a change in culture? Oh, man.
Big question, Anusha. I hope you're ready. So
big. I just I want to like say I want to say
something first and then put it aside because
what I'm about to say is a topic for a totally
different episode. Just one thing to say about
Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed. Jacob Tierney
responded to queer media written by a woman.
And I just want to say having being interested
in queer Asian media, that a lot of it is written
by women from the 1970s to today. There is. big,
there's academic research and dialogue about
this. There's a great book, I'm forgetting the
title of it, but it's by an author named Thomas
Baudinette, who studied how gay Japanese men
interact with queer content written by women
in manga. I just want to throw this out there
for your listeners, that there is a dialogue,
there is research out there about how gay men
interact with queer media. written by women and
what Jacob Tierney did in responding to Rachel
Reed's media. That is just a whole other conversation.
He's touched upon it a lot, but I'm going to
leave that alone. Okay. We are not Canadian.
We are Americans. What is the sport that speaks
most to our cultural fabric as Americans? I would
say it's baseball and football. the Super Bowl
is not just a sports event, then the Super Bowl
is very much a cultural event. Jacob Tierney
and Rachel Reed are Canadians, and I've been
in situations, social situations throughout my
life where I've met a Canadian for the first
time, and the conversation didn't feel... flowing
and natural until we started talking about hockey.
It's like hockey as a culture. It's like these
athletes as cultural figures, the sport as a
cultural figure, the arena as the community center.
Shorzy, the show that Jacob Tierney was previously
working on before he did a rivalry, touches upon
the community arena in Sudbury, Ontario, as a
cultural center, as a community and cultural
center. So as American fans, I don't think that
we can begin to understand. Like literally, unless
we like living in Buffalo or the northern states
like Minnesota, maybe how hockey plays into the
cultural fabric of Canada. I recently spoke with
so that the next president of our PTA is Canadian.
And again, I live in L .A. So this is really
great. Our PTA president is Canadian and she's
very Canadian. She's got a very dry, incredibly
deep sense of Canadian humor. We were like the
cover. Like we were talking about like what my
new role in the PTA is getting coffee. The conversation
just slips into heated rivalry and hockey. And
she talks about how she like can't watch hockey
because she gets like too over emotional about
it. I think she's a Maple Leafs fan. But she
described heated rivalry as she watched it, not
because she was interested in hockey and not
even because she was interested in the show.
But when she watched it, because she said, as
soon as I started watching it, I felt how Canadian
it was. And I think as Americans, we can't really.
touch that. Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed are
very embodied Canadians. Heated Rivalry is a
really Canadian show. Hockey is a tremendous
part of the fabric of Canadian culture. When
you asked earlier about why hockey as the sport
that centers heated rivalry with Rachel Reed
being a Canadian. Like lacrosse is really big
and soccer is really big in Canada, but she chose
hockey because it's so culturally impactful.
And Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed just do not
miss that. I would love to see one Canadian's
game in my life, but that shit is so difficult
to do because the tickets are so sold out and
that arena is just so packed. Like culturally
hockey is just so there and Jacob and Rachel
get it. Again, we said this before, the show
that Jacob Tierney had most previously worked
on before Heated Rivalry was a show about hockey.
He's coming from hockey being a part of the Letterkenny
universe and then going to Shorzy and then going
to Heated Rivalry. Like hockey is just a big
thing about what he does as well. And he is just
a translator of that, such an exquisite translator
of hockey culture as both a theme of Heated Rivalry,
but also a theme to use as a mirror against a
queer love story. Rachel Reed is very famous
for needing to take breaks from her hockey passion
because of all of the disappointments that she's
experienced as a hockey fan. Disappointments
that we've all experienced as hockey fans, like
the Hockey Canada Junior Hockey Scandal. I feel
like I needed to take a break from being a huge
fan of the New York Rangers and just step back
and watch hockey in general. Jacob Tierney and
Rachel Reed, they just... They get all of that.
They are just the artistic interpreters of what
hockey culture means to somebody else's, to a
character's entire fabric when they grow up in
this hockey culture, whether it's Shane as a
Canadian or actually Ilya as a Russian, because
I actually think that they nail both of that.
The description that you had of Canadians who
are hockey fans, it's not even like a fan. It's
like you just are. You live, you breathe. love
hockey. It's just part of your nature. And I
think that is such a rich tapestry to put this
show against because the show is entirely about
kind of separating the threads of identity because
nothing is ever 100 % bad or 100 % good, but
you have to kind of separate those threads of
toxicity from the love. of the game and what
the game gave you. Because for Shane, it clearly
gave him this elite way for him to use his autistic
brain to be amazing at something. But it also
is the thing that is repressing him from being
his true self. So I think that it's really, really
interesting that you talk about it in this way
for the showrunner and the author. Because like
in many ways, that's kind of what their characters
are going through. The autism slice of it, the
inability for Shane to be able to question the
culture because he's always loved it and Hockey
has always loved him back. And so that provides
a safety net for him. And then his reckoning
with his queerness shakes that safety. And what
the show does. There's little discrepancies,
obviously, between the book and the show. But
one thing that I love about what the show does
in regards to shaking Shane's safety foundation
is when he gives up on his diet whenever he's
around Ilya. He's on his macrobiotic diet. He's
going to eat his burnt food while Hayden's eating
steak. But he will share tuna melts with Ilya.
That is such a great metaphor for the foundation.
That's a good one. Shaking. He gives up on the
self -control because... His sexual desires and
his sexuality and everything that he's questioning
is shaking him to the core. 10 out of 10. Chef's
kiss. Like they do that. Jacob and Rachel do
that intentionally. And they know that it's going
to resonate in this obsessive athletic world.
Yeah. Like going back to that first question
about like why hockey? Because hockey provides
that outlet for the obsessive. Hockey allows
that. But then you're like, OK, but what about
real life here? Shane's foundation, going back
to that thing of like his autistic focus on hockey
and hockey being his safe space and then hockey
all of a sudden not becoming his safe space.
Jacob and Rachel, as fans, deal with that so
incredibly well because both of them individually
and then together. question those tenants on
the regular. After being traumatized from the
Team USA men's locker room scandal, the only
comfort I could give to myself in those moments
was at least Jacob and Rachel are going to be
on it because those two are the experts on being
on it in terms of responding to all of this different
toxicity that occurs in hockey. Her messaging
about what... what happened in the locker room.
Her messaging about hockey teams will have far
more social resonance than anything the NHL could
ever do. Her media hand will win. Hockey's will
lose in regards to the social genuflection of
what happened in that locker room. I think that
probably is the exclamation point on the very
big question I asked you, Jamie, because... Honestly,
how do you change culture? You change culture
by changing culture. It's a circular thing. You
change it by changing it. You change it by interacting
with it. You change it by loving it. You change
it by loving it and questioning it. And you just
change it. Looking back on the rest of the season
after heated rivalry aired and seeing how different
teams responded to the heated rivalry effect.
And we know now there's so many heated rivalry
fans. have entered hockey spaces like hockey
podcast spaces and fandom spaces. We know that
there are some teams that are supportive of Pride.
Props to the Montreal Canadiens for showing clips
of heated rivalry on the Jumbotron at the Bell
Centre, like the temple of hockey and hockey
culture. Props to the Canadiens' TV networks
for having Francois Arnault on. and talking about
heated rivalry, I get a lot of relief out of
being at the crossroads of loving hockey, knowing
as much as I do about hockey, but also being
a heated rivalry fan and just knowing that heated
rivalry, the social conversation about heated
rivalry is a far more socially impactful conversation
than a conversation about... culture within hockey
itself in terms of what you said, culture changes
culture. It's really happening at a glacial pace
within hockey, but I do think it's there. And
I think having younger, more prominent players
in the NHL now, post -pandemic, will help the
change that we're wanting to see from heated
rivalry enter the professional hockey's ranks
more. For me, I think about this a lot. It's
not a matter of if, but it's a matter of when.
the first out hockey player will play in the
NHL. It's just a matter of, it's going to happen.
It's going to happen at some point. And I will
be so happy for it to happen. He has provided
both a correlation and a causation for that to
happen. There will be an out hockey player playing
on the ice one day. There will be on the NHL
ice. There will be. It's been so great having
you and having this amazing conversation. And
I have to say. You and Heated Rivalry have also
turned me to a novice, novice, but still a very
like fervent hockey fan. So kudos to you. Kudos
to the show. Kudos to the book. I never thought
I would say these words out loud, but let me
say them. Let's go Flyers. It doesn't sound right.
But for you, Anusha, let's go Flyers. I'm so
glad you're paying attention to hockey. I'm so
glad you're into it. I'm just so thrilled. that
heated rivalry has brought so much joy to so
many people, just like Rachel Reed and I think
just like Jacob Tierney. Us hockey fans who have
loved hockey for so long for all of our lives
have experienced so many ups and downs with the
sport, especially for women. We've experienced
probably more downs than up. And so I hope that
heated rivalry for your listeners can bring a
sense of optimism and interest in... Like if
we just paid attention to the sport and we didn't
have to deal with the toxic culture of professional
hockey, life would be so much better for all
of us fans. So being able to talk about it a
little bit with my bestie has been amazing. Just
thanks for having me on. And also, like, I'm
just so thrilled. Thank you, Anusha. Well. I
love that conversation. I'm sure some of you
noticed I had to run halfway through. So Anusha
held down the fort. So thank you so much, Anusha.
I had an occasion that I had to go to. So I had
to leave. But I did listen to the rest of it.
And it was a really awesome convo. And I learned
a lot from her. She really is like the perfect.
host or, you know, guest. She's going to take
over. Next season, presented by Janthi Daniels.
No, she's amazing. I can't wait. We're definitely
going to have her on again. Like, absolutely.
But she was really fun to listen to. And she's
so she's like a wealth of knowledge. Like there's
so much information in that head of hers. That
was awesome. So thank you for bringing her on.
And thank you, Janthi, for coming and chatting
with us. Yes. I mean, you know, this is like
her. usual mo so i'm not shocked um but yes she
was wonderful to have thank you jay and the thank
you for coming on okay anusha what is your moment
of sunshine this week Well, that is very obvious.
My moment of sunshine was editing this episode.
Diana, do you remember? I think one of your first
moments of sunshine was with your friend, like
your bestie from childhood and like the reconnection
that you had when you had your rivalry and the
conversations around it. And this just felt like
another one of those moments and actually total
bookend because. Jay and Thee and her sister
and I, I mean, we're like, you know, those college
friends that like you don't talk for a long time
and then you pick up like yesterday, right? Like
I love those friendships. So we hadn't like done
texts where we were texting daily or anything
like that for a while. And then when we started
this podcast, they were one of the first people
I told. And so now to have her as a guest and
like listening to the podcast as we edited it
was just, The best. The best. I love that. Oh,
I love that. That's very sweet. That is a really
nice bookend. That's pretty great. So what's
your moment of sunshine? My Moment of Sunshine
is actually just the community of loons on threads.
Now, as you know, there's definitely some like
toxic, unhinged parts of this fandom that somehow
make the news here and there. I never see that
on my timeline. I really don't. Like I have curated
even the algo within the algo of heated rivalry.
I have curated to see pretty much only like positive
stuff. And I have built a pretty great like fandom
community on threads. I'm enjoying it a lot.
Some of our listeners also interact with us daily.
And speaking of like sunshine on top of sunshine,
one of our listeners sent us a letter from St.
Petersburg and beautiful drawing of a loon. And
she is also part of like the fandom community
that I interact with almost daily. And I don't
know. I've got a loss for words, which is weird
for me, as you know, about how much something
like that means to me and to you, I'm sure, to
get fan mail from across the world, you know,
and it's just I love it so much. That is the
biggest sunshine I've had in a really long time.
Yeah, it's a gorgeous note. The fact that was
handwritten, hand drawn from across the world.
I mean, if you talk about connection and like
the digital age, like. That's like slow down
connect. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know.
And it's like it's one of those things that like
people don't write letters anymore, you know.
And now I want letters all the time. Can you
guys send us letters? Send us letters, please.
Handwritten. I want more handwritten letters.
All of it. I know. I know. It was beautiful.
I was so moved when I read it. It's just thank
you. I know. I'm just saying I do want to say
to you, to your face, that I'm keeping that.
drawing and I've already put it on my shelf so
you can come over and look at it but it's mine
just just yes it is yours I will come over to
admire it I mean it is from Russia with love
I could not take that from you I would feel very
badly thank you I appreciate it even though I'm
highly jealous well so but you know you could
have the next one I'll live I'll just come over
your house anytime I want You know, the invitation
is always open and welcome. Next week on Everyone
Deserves Sunshine, we're talking about intimacy
and all the sex scenes. Ooh. I know. I know.
I'm so excited. I'm excited. So subscribe now
wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want
to say hi to the girls in the crease, find us
on Instagram, Facebook, and Threads at Everyone
Deserves Sunshine. Or email us at everyonedeservesunshine
at gmail .com. New episodes drop on Mondays.
See you then.