WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.419 Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana. 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:05.440 And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease. 00:00:05.820 --> 00:00:09.619 And Diana, summer's coming up. And I think it's 00:00:09.619 --> 00:00:12.580 only fair we let our listeners know that we're 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:15.939 going to take a little bit of a break. TBD, TBD, 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:18.600 all of it will continue. Good things will come. 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:21.120 But, you know, everyone wants a break in the 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:23.339 summer, right? Absolutely. We definitely need 00:00:23.339 --> 00:00:26.989 a break. This podcasting business is... You know, 00:00:27.010 --> 00:00:31.550 a lot. It's serious stuff. It's serious work. 00:00:31.769 --> 00:00:33.869 And as much as we love it, we're going to take 00:00:33.869 --> 00:00:37.149 our summer off. So we will have two more episodes 00:00:37.149 --> 00:00:40.229 to make it an even 20. And then we'll take the 00:00:40.229 --> 00:00:42.890 summer off. And then we'll see you all back in 00:00:42.890 --> 00:00:44.990 around September. So just wanted to give you 00:00:44.990 --> 00:00:49.460 a heads up. And if you have any ideas about what 00:00:49.460 --> 00:00:52.920 we should talk about in the fall as we await 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.799 season two with Baited Breath, you know, obviously 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:58.619 our socials are open to suggestions. They really 00:00:58.619 --> 00:01:02.579 are. They're always open. All right. Sounds good. 00:01:02.619 --> 00:01:07.340 So this is episode 18. We're talking about hockey. 00:01:07.780 --> 00:01:10.810 Finally. I know you've been waiting for this 00:01:10.810 --> 00:01:13.390 for so long. And we have an awesome guest. Our 00:01:13.390 --> 00:01:16.650 guest is Anusha's friend from college, and she's 00:01:16.650 --> 00:01:21.450 a hockey fanatic and a lover of romance and a 00:01:21.450 --> 00:01:24.310 lover of Jacob Tierney's work. So the perfect 00:01:24.310 --> 00:01:27.810 guest, truly, for this episode. Truly, truly 00:01:27.810 --> 00:01:31.170 the perfect guest. Joining us today is Janethi 00:01:31.170 --> 00:01:35.730 Daniel. Janethi is a social worker and a journalist 00:01:35.730 --> 00:01:40.480 and also... a housing and homelessness advocate 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.680 who lives in LA. No, so she's my friend. Now 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:45.959 that we've gotten their credentials. Welcome, 00:01:46.099 --> 00:01:48.379 Jay and Thee. So let's let's explain for the 00:01:48.379 --> 00:01:50.939 podcast audience really quick. Anusha and I are 00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:53.379 college friends. A lot of Indians grow up with 00:01:53.379 --> 00:01:55.420 American nicknames. My American nickname was 00:01:55.420 --> 00:01:57.280 Jamie when I was growing up, but I go by Janethi 00:01:57.280 --> 00:01:58.980 professionally. So just call me whatever you 00:01:58.980 --> 00:02:01.599 want on this podcast. It's totally cool. So first 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:03.780 of all, again, thank you, Anusha and Diana, so 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:06.519 much for having me on. I'm so proud of you guys 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:10.159 for having the podcast and getting a slice of 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:13.340 this perspective from the... moms who have watched 00:02:13.340 --> 00:02:15.979 the show in particular. It just hits the mark 00:02:15.979 --> 00:02:18.259 in terms of the demo, like one of the most important 00:02:18.259 --> 00:02:20.240 demographics of people watching this show. So 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:22.479 thank you guys so much for having me. And this 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:25.240 community is just so awesome. We ask all of our 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:29.539 guests this question. What is your origin story? 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:33.169 Like, how did you get into the show? Kind of 00:02:33.169 --> 00:02:35.610 separate hobbies, separate interests brought 00:02:35.610 --> 00:02:38.930 me to crossroads of heated rivalry. As Anusha 00:02:38.930 --> 00:02:41.030 knows, I've been a hockey fan all of my life. 00:02:41.330 --> 00:02:44.710 Anusha, both myself and my twin sister. We grew 00:02:44.710 --> 00:02:48.650 up as huge New York Rangers fans. Grew up in 00:02:48.650 --> 00:02:50.150 New York, grew up in the suburbs of New York, 00:02:50.150 --> 00:02:53.189 New York City. Since I was 10 years old, die 00:02:53.189 --> 00:02:55.979 hard. New York Rangers fan. So hockey has always 00:02:55.979 --> 00:02:58.219 been a part of my life. Definitely on and off 00:02:58.219 --> 00:03:00.500 with being able to spend time paying attention 00:03:00.500 --> 00:03:02.219 to it because it takes a lot of time. And if 00:03:02.219 --> 00:03:03.680 you're going to games, it takes a lot of money. 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:05.539 And now I live in L .A., so I'm not going to 00:03:05.539 --> 00:03:09.919 Rangers games as much. But I was very lucky to 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:12.900 marry a husband 13 years ago. Our anniversary 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:15.599 was last week. So 16 years together, actually. 00:03:16.139 --> 00:03:18.840 And literally the first fact that I discovered 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:23.569 about him was that he was also a born. and raised 00:03:23.569 --> 00:03:26.490 true blue New York Rangers fan. Like when we 00:03:26.490 --> 00:03:29.150 met and we found that out about each other, our 00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:31.270 minds exploded. We were like, how could this 00:03:31.270 --> 00:03:33.330 possibly be? And for him, he's like a normal 00:03:33.330 --> 00:03:35.530 white guy from Queens, New York, passionate Rangers 00:03:35.530 --> 00:03:38.050 fan because of his grandfather. Him and his grandfather 00:03:38.050 --> 00:03:40.449 used to watch hockey together. But I'm an atypical 00:03:40.449 --> 00:03:42.789 hockey fan just at the time I was growing up, 00:03:42.849 --> 00:03:45.960 young Asian woman. Not a lot of Asians at MSG 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:48.719 going to hockey games. We were it in the 90s, 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:51.039 me and my sister. And then I met in college some 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:53.400 other Asian hockey fans. Definitely on the cusp 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:55.020 of something different of the changing demographics 00:03:55.020 --> 00:03:58.219 of the NHL fandom. Passionate hockey fan all 00:03:58.219 --> 00:03:59.960 of my life and always just followed the NHL. 00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:02.919 And to this day, subscribe to NHL Center Eyes. 00:04:02.979 --> 00:04:05.939 We watch games and that's just a fabric of our 00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:08.560 lives. But then with heated rivalry, of course, 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:10.560 I knew that heated rivalry was coming out. But 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:12.099 the way that I found out about it was actually 00:04:12.099 --> 00:04:14.919 kind of roundabout. not like in the hockey way, 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:18.000 but actually in another hobby of mine where I 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.079 love Asian dramas, as many people do. I love 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:23.480 Korean dramas, I love Japanese dramas, but I 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:25.740 particularly love the subset of queer dramas. 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.420 There is tremendous queer media coming out of 00:04:28.420 --> 00:04:32.279 Asia, especially by way of a rise in the 1970s 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.350 of queer. content and queer themes coming out 00:04:35.350 --> 00:04:38.750 of manga in Japan. And I'm not going to get into 00:04:38.750 --> 00:04:41.550 the history of that. But long story short, those 00:04:41.550 --> 00:04:43.709 dramas becoming ever more accessible through 00:04:43.709 --> 00:04:46.170 streaming services. And so when Heated Rivalry 00:04:46.170 --> 00:04:49.370 kind of was coming down the pike and Crave Canada 00:04:49.370 --> 00:04:51.930 was promoting it and people were getting really 00:04:51.930 --> 00:04:53.649 excited about it. I had no idea why people were 00:04:53.649 --> 00:04:55.509 getting excited about it because I did not know 00:04:55.509 --> 00:04:58.110 about the books by Rachel Reed. But I was paying 00:04:58.110 --> 00:05:00.810 attention to it because the online queer drama 00:05:00.810 --> 00:05:02.829 fandoms were saying, hey, this show from North 00:05:02.829 --> 00:05:04.529 America. America is coming out. About a month 00:05:04.529 --> 00:05:06.569 before the show dropped, I was like, you know 00:05:06.569 --> 00:05:08.610 what? Let me just read the book. I had no idea 00:05:08.610 --> 00:05:10.629 that Game Changers was a series. I was just like, 00:05:10.670 --> 00:05:12.870 let me just prep myself because I got this. hockey 00:05:12.870 --> 00:05:15.170 background. I know about queer dramas. Let me 00:05:15.170 --> 00:05:16.990 just let me find out what happens in this book. 00:05:17.069 --> 00:05:19.370 And I read the book in a day and a half. And 00:05:19.370 --> 00:05:22.129 I was like, Oh, my fuck. Whoa, this book, this 00:05:22.129 --> 00:05:24.589 book is so good. Rachel Reed calls it smut. But 00:05:24.589 --> 00:05:28.050 she's a very good writer. It's a remarkable example 00:05:28.050 --> 00:05:32.410 of the of the romance genre. It has that Canadian 00:05:32.410 --> 00:05:36.850 humor essence of things just not being very explosive 00:05:36.850 --> 00:05:40.480 or overblown. I was like, this is damn good writing. 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:44.680 I read the whole series, watched the show, watched 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.579 the show again, read the whole series again, 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:51.680 and was like, this is a category of art that 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:53.660 Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed have really tapped 00:05:53.660 --> 00:05:56.639 into that I haven't even read any other hockey 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:58.779 books. Rachel's are the only ones that I've read 00:05:58.779 --> 00:06:01.180 because I kind of think that's the pinnacle of 00:06:01.180 --> 00:06:03.720 the genre. I'll maybe read other hockey romances 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:06.279 down the road, but they get it. They get it. 00:06:06.589 --> 00:06:09.790 the crossroads of hockey and the romance literature 00:06:09.790 --> 00:06:14.170 genre extremely well. I recently met the operator 00:06:14.170 --> 00:06:18.850 of a hockey -themed online clothing store. She 00:06:18.850 --> 00:06:21.589 has a very robust Instagram presence. Her account 00:06:21.589 --> 00:06:23.569 is called Double Hockey Sticks. Her first name 00:06:23.569 --> 00:06:25.769 is Lacey. She's just gained hundreds of thousands 00:06:25.769 --> 00:06:28.310 of followers over the past few months, not only 00:06:28.310 --> 00:06:30.110 because of heated rivalry and the new hockey 00:06:30.110 --> 00:06:33.350 fans coming out because of HR, but also because 00:06:33.350 --> 00:06:36.250 of the recent. olympic scandals happening in 00:06:36.250 --> 00:06:38.990 actual ice hockey um and we were talking about 00:06:38.990 --> 00:06:41.509 how small the crossroads is of actual hockey 00:06:41.509 --> 00:06:44.250 fans and heated rivalry the crossroads is actually 00:06:44.250 --> 00:06:47.149 really small jacob put together an amazing show 00:06:47.149 --> 00:06:50.050 i've since watched a tremendous amount of queer 00:06:50.050 --> 00:06:52.649 media from around the world and heated rivalry 00:06:52.649 --> 00:06:56.199 happens to be a very excellent example. It is 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:58.939 such a high quality show. They did so much on 00:06:58.939 --> 00:07:01.319 so little, but you guys know this. So that's 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:04.819 my origin story. So much like richness that came 00:07:04.819 --> 00:07:08.160 out of there. When I say Jay and her sister are 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:11.160 hockey fanatics, when you came to visit me in 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.139 Pittsburgh and we happened to run into LeTang 00:07:15.139 --> 00:07:18.439 and you were giving him the stink ride. We were 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.459 at a restaurant in Pittsburgh and Anusha's... 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:24.899 husband is razzing us because I think it was 00:07:24.899 --> 00:07:27.519 the Rangers that had lost against the Pens in 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.300 Pittsburgh. And then we were at a restaurant 00:07:30.300 --> 00:07:32.959 where the Pens, including Chris Letang, was celebrating. 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:35.540 And me and Amy are like, no, we're not going 00:07:35.540 --> 00:07:37.819 to go up to the Pens. They suck. They suck. And 00:07:37.819 --> 00:07:40.439 Gary goes right up to the table and shakes Letang's 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.860 hand and says, congratulations, boys. So LifeLog 00:07:43.860 --> 00:07:49.819 hockey fanatic overlapping with queer media consumer. 00:07:50.819 --> 00:07:53.779 overlapping with someone who loves the romance 00:07:53.779 --> 00:07:57.199 genre, overlapping with someone who has also 00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:59.959 watched other Jacob Tierney shows. I think there 00:07:59.959 --> 00:08:02.560 might be one of you in the whole world. Yeah, 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.519 I think there's one of you in the whole world. 00:08:04.660 --> 00:08:07.100 Nice find, Anusha. Nice find. Who would have 00:08:07.100 --> 00:08:09.800 thought that your college friend would be so 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.240 useful so much later in life to both of us? Yeah, 00:08:13.379 --> 00:08:15.860 you were made. You were literally made for this 00:08:15.860 --> 00:08:18.439 moment. Do you want to be a co -host? You could 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.319 probably be the single host. I will say this 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.459 is not the first time I've been asked to be on 00:08:24.459 --> 00:08:26.879 a heated rivalry related podcast. But the thing 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.980 that I say to people who have done other podcasts 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:32.820 or who are even doing other heated rivalry podcasts 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:35.519 is like, I have to talk about hockey. I have 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.320 to talk about actual ice hockey. And they're 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.539 like, yeah, no, we know nothing about ice hockey. 00:08:40.659 --> 00:08:42.220 And I'm like, yeah, now's the time for you to 00:08:42.220 --> 00:08:44.570 learn a little bit, but also. The environment 00:08:44.570 --> 00:08:47.230 in which one could become an ice hockey fan at 00:08:47.230 --> 00:08:48.990 the moment, at least if you're interested in 00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:51.590 men's hockey, it's still a little... I think 00:08:51.590 --> 00:08:53.669 people start to scratch the surface of becoming 00:08:53.669 --> 00:08:56.049 a, like looking into becoming a fan of men's 00:08:56.049 --> 00:08:58.149 hockey specifically. And they're like, oh yeah, 00:08:58.210 --> 00:09:00.269 there's a lot of roadblocks here. There's a lot 00:09:00.269 --> 00:09:03.690 of obstacles here. But at the same time... heated 00:09:03.690 --> 00:09:05.909 rivalry fans becoming hockey fans and discovering 00:09:05.909 --> 00:09:07.690 the Professional Women's Hockey League, which 00:09:07.690 --> 00:09:10.529 is experiencing its own incredible moment of 00:09:10.529 --> 00:09:13.889 investment and success. The skill set of women's 00:09:13.889 --> 00:09:16.230 hockey players has never been higher. That's 00:09:16.230 --> 00:09:18.870 also been an amazing entry point for heated rivalry 00:09:18.870 --> 00:09:20.889 fans to get to know about hockey. I mean, while 00:09:20.889 --> 00:09:23.350 the internet makes everything easy, knowing as 00:09:23.350 --> 00:09:25.990 much as we know about actual hockey players, 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:29.340 now male hockey players, like... you know, heterosexual, 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:31.460 straight, male, conservative, male hockey players. 00:09:31.539 --> 00:09:33.799 It actually makes those entry points a bit more 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:36.000 difficult. That's really interesting to dig into. 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:38.799 Yeah, that's the perfect segue, I think, to the 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:41.620 next part of the conversation. Diane, I don't 00:09:41.620 --> 00:09:44.399 know about you, but I have not picked up another 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:48.200 smutty hockey male -male romance outside of Heated 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.080 Rivalry and the Game Changers series. But there's 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:54.419 a lot of them, actually. But what do you think 00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:56.899 that is? You talked about the entry point, but 00:09:56.899 --> 00:10:01.600 why hockey? I mean, I have thought so much about 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.480 this. Because I know so much about hockey and 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:06.879 I know so much about hockey culture, that's my 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:09.679 lens. And so I don't know if what I'm about to 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.340 say will relate to others, but it probably will, 00:10:12.500 --> 00:10:15.600 which is that the stereotype of hockey. And hockey 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:18.120 is the least popular of the four major sports. 00:10:18.889 --> 00:10:20.549 by the way, you know, like in terms of drawing 00:10:20.549 --> 00:10:23.750 audiences and ticket sales and revenue and that 00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:25.610 sort of thing. My lens in terms of being both 00:10:25.610 --> 00:10:27.590 a hockey fan and trying to pull out and step 00:10:27.590 --> 00:10:29.409 into somebody else's shoes is that hockey is 00:10:29.409 --> 00:10:31.970 such a like an over masculine sport. When you 00:10:31.970 --> 00:10:34.850 hear other athletes from other sports talk about 00:10:34.850 --> 00:10:37.389 hockey, if you have guest athletes, like say 00:10:37.389 --> 00:10:39.450 baseball players watching a hockey game and like 00:10:39.450 --> 00:10:40.990 you see social media posts about what they're 00:10:40.990 --> 00:10:43.830 saying. As they're watching the game, very often 00:10:43.830 --> 00:10:46.149 other athletes are saying about the hockey players, 00:10:46.289 --> 00:10:48.090 this is the most elite sport because you have 00:10:48.090 --> 00:10:50.509 to have. the widest skill set. You have to be 00:10:50.509 --> 00:10:52.409 good on skates. You have to be fast on skates. 00:10:52.429 --> 00:10:54.470 You have to have stick handling skills. You have 00:10:54.470 --> 00:10:56.529 to be big. You have to be built. You have to 00:10:56.529 --> 00:10:59.129 be able to absorb hits. So there's just this 00:10:59.129 --> 00:11:02.250 masculinity of it all. It's very strong and very 00:11:02.250 --> 00:11:05.250 apparent. I think hockey lends itself to the 00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:07.850 romance genre, particularly queer romance, because 00:11:07.850 --> 00:11:10.389 of a collision of these masculine ideals with 00:11:10.389 --> 00:11:12.690 the conversation about discovering queerness, 00:11:12.769 --> 00:11:16.889 the hockey culture. is what keeps them inside. 00:11:17.190 --> 00:11:20.809 And the driver of the queer romantic story is 00:11:20.809 --> 00:11:22.509 that they have to question the masculinity of 00:11:22.509 --> 00:11:24.090 the hockey culture that's keeping them in the 00:11:24.090 --> 00:11:27.750 closet. Particularly, like I'm always so impacted 00:11:27.750 --> 00:11:30.269 by the conversation that Troy Barrett has with 00:11:30.269 --> 00:11:32.570 Ilya as they're walking away from the Kingfisher. 00:11:33.189 --> 00:11:36.309 where Troy says to Ilya, hockey guys would more 00:11:36.309 --> 00:11:38.970 likely want to be accused of murder than liking 00:11:38.970 --> 00:11:42.850 dick. That encapsulates so well the hockey culture 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:45.330 of the locker room, which when I was growing 00:11:45.330 --> 00:11:47.909 up in the 90s, we didn't have cameras in the 00:11:47.909 --> 00:11:49.929 locker rooms. And there's a part of me as an 00:11:49.929 --> 00:11:51.409 old school hockey fan that's like, I actually 00:11:51.409 --> 00:11:53.110 don't want to see that. That's what 90s hockey 00:11:53.110 --> 00:11:54.850 culture actually told me about. There's some 00:11:54.850 --> 00:11:57.529 stuff that I don't want to know about. Because 00:11:57.529 --> 00:11:59.769 it's so hyper -masculine, it's because of this 00:11:59.769 --> 00:12:02.370 chasm -wide collision of the hyper -masculine 00:12:02.370 --> 00:12:06.049 culture of hockey culture being put under the 00:12:06.049 --> 00:12:08.110 microscope as an individual character literally 00:12:08.110 --> 00:12:11.149 lives out what it means to be queer and to be 00:12:11.149 --> 00:12:14.929 gay and questioning that hockey culture is the 00:12:14.929 --> 00:12:18.029 metaphor for greater society, which is exactly 00:12:18.029 --> 00:12:20.590 what Rachel Reid, I think, intends to do. I love 00:12:20.590 --> 00:12:22.529 that you said there's this chasm because our 00:12:22.529 --> 00:12:26.039 second episode was really this. core concept 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:28.960 of masculinity, right? That intersection of hockey 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:32.960 and overt, aggressive, performative masculinity. 00:12:33.379 --> 00:12:35.059 One thing I could talk a little bit about is 00:12:35.059 --> 00:12:38.379 the forced masculinity of hockey, which is very 00:12:38.379 --> 00:12:41.000 well known. If you're an elite hockey player 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.200 as a youngster, you can at once get away with 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:47.500 a lot of bad behavior. And then also, you are 00:12:47.500 --> 00:12:50.779 highly likely to have been subjected to an immense 00:12:50.779 --> 00:12:52.580 amount of pressure and probably psychological 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:55.919 abuse. from somewhere in the system whether it 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.659 was your parents or coaches or teammates without 00:12:58.659 --> 00:13:01.360 even knowing it you might have experienced it 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.500 without even knowing it the people who are the 00:13:03.500 --> 00:13:06.470 abusers also might not know that they are being 00:13:06.470 --> 00:13:10.210 abusers because the cycle these cycles of trauma 00:13:10.210 --> 00:13:13.450 these cycles of abuse are so embedded in hockey 00:13:13.450 --> 00:13:17.309 culture to pressure elite athletes to be elite 00:13:17.309 --> 00:13:20.509 i would propose that that feeds into a hyper 00:13:20.509 --> 00:13:23.730 masculine cycle of behavior in the locker room 00:13:23.730 --> 00:13:27.590 where you are expected to conform so heavily 00:13:27.590 --> 00:13:32.090 to hockey's tenants of humility brotherhood, 00:13:32.250 --> 00:13:36.370 the team comes first. Every day I see, I don't 00:13:36.370 --> 00:13:39.529 necessarily have hope, but I see, every day I 00:13:39.529 --> 00:13:41.990 see younger players coming in and challenging 00:13:41.990 --> 00:13:44.850 those notions. I see Zane Parake from the Calgary 00:13:44.850 --> 00:13:46.789 Flames complaining that older players are really 00:13:46.789 --> 00:13:48.710 boring and he doesn't want to be like that. And 00:13:48.710 --> 00:13:51.169 then he has to go to the, take a press conference 00:13:51.169 --> 00:13:54.289 and apologize for saying that. He does, but then 00:13:54.289 --> 00:13:56.570 he's still a spectacular player on the ice. So 00:13:56.570 --> 00:13:59.610 19 year old, go kick ass, go be great. Trevor 00:13:59.610 --> 00:14:02.750 Zegras from Anusha's beloved Philadelphia Flyers 00:14:02.750 --> 00:14:05.870 has to be traded from the Ducks to the Flyers 00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:08.870 because he's just too out there and he's too 00:14:08.870 --> 00:14:10.929 individual and he's lip syncing to songs on the 00:14:10.929 --> 00:14:13.570 bench and he's like this fun guy. And that behavior 00:14:13.570 --> 00:14:16.289 doesn't... work for all coaches who want these 00:14:16.289 --> 00:14:18.429 dudes to conform. And then he goes to the Flyers 00:14:18.429 --> 00:14:20.750 and he's thriving. Now we've seen two Swedish 00:14:20.750 --> 00:14:22.769 hockey players this season take mental health 00:14:22.769 --> 00:14:25.769 leaves in Linus Allmark from the Senators and 00:14:25.769 --> 00:14:28.210 just now Hedman from the Tampa Bay Lightning, 00:14:28.330 --> 00:14:29.909 who just made an announcement literally today 00:14:29.909 --> 00:14:31.950 that he had taken a really long break for mental 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:34.950 health reasons. And so there are individuals 00:14:34.950 --> 00:14:38.340 fighting against. these notions. So one by one, 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.059 I feel like these notions are being questioned, 00:14:40.100 --> 00:14:42.500 but still there's an overarching and it starts 00:14:42.500 --> 00:14:45.940 from their youth and over like these masculine 00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:48.399 tenets are really built into hockey culture that 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:51.659 as a fan, if you've been a fan for a while. You 00:14:51.659 --> 00:14:53.639 don't even need to verbalize them. You naturally 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:56.679 know that these guys have been through the emotional 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.659 wringer and they haven't been allowed to really 00:14:58.659 --> 00:15:00.720 express what they've gone through. What you're 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.019 saying reminds me of this line that Ilya says. 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.139 He says something like, I love Russia, but Russia 00:15:06.139 --> 00:15:10.159 doesn't love me. We're talking about the chasm 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:13.480 between the overly masculine world of hockey 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.039 and this like softer place that's available for 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:20.870 these really young. players to come out so that's 00:15:20.870 --> 00:15:23.629 a clash then you also have this sort of love 00:15:23.629 --> 00:15:27.230 of the game love of the sport clashing with your 00:15:27.230 --> 00:15:30.909 sense of identity that's a clash right the rivalry 00:15:30.909 --> 00:15:35.549 in the story is shane and ilia but the actual 00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:39.409 bigger not rivalry but things that are set up 00:15:39.409 --> 00:15:41.970 to be polar opposites are actually the culture 00:15:41.970 --> 00:15:45.590 itself which in many ways is also an echo of 00:15:45.590 --> 00:15:48.690 a lot of the other kind of threads we've woven 00:15:48.690 --> 00:15:51.529 through this podcast, the immigrant culture. 00:15:51.750 --> 00:15:54.250 We already talked about masculinity. We talked 00:15:54.250 --> 00:15:57.289 about neurodivergence, like all these places 00:15:57.289 --> 00:16:00.909 where you were not allowed to be yourself. kind 00:16:00.909 --> 00:16:03.769 of coming back and roosting. And then you have 00:16:03.769 --> 00:16:08.049 to figure out how to express yourself. And maybe 00:16:08.049 --> 00:16:10.370 that's why hockey, if you think about football, 00:16:10.629 --> 00:16:14.350 you have players who are famous for their own 00:16:14.350 --> 00:16:16.970 individual touchdown dance or whatever, right? 00:16:17.090 --> 00:16:20.190 They have these giant, larger -than -life personalities, 00:16:20.629 --> 00:16:23.870 whereas I don't think that's the way hockey is 00:16:23.870 --> 00:16:27.419 really treated. No, total opposite. Yeah. These 00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:30.100 are big physical players on these tiny little 00:16:30.100 --> 00:16:33.220 skates. In a way, it's very almost dance -like. 00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:35.259 It's very hard to figure out who's making the 00:16:35.259 --> 00:16:37.860 play at that moment because it's moving fast. 00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:39.960 But the idea is they have to be synchronous. 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:42.799 Yeah, yeah. They can't be individuals on the 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.659 ice. And it sounds like that translates to all 00:16:47.659 --> 00:16:51.200 parts of your identity if you're an elite athlete. 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.279 That 100%. I mean, what you just described there 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:57.440 was perfect by way of describing how the teamwork 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.820 aspect needs to function as a game. That is part 00:17:00.820 --> 00:17:03.940 of the fabric, this crossroads of how you need 00:17:03.940 --> 00:17:05.619 to behave in the locker room. Having different 00:17:05.619 --> 00:17:08.319 viewpoints in a locker room from what we understand 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.119 as hockey fans, especially lifelong hockey fans, 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:12.619 being different in the locker room is a really 00:17:12.619 --> 00:17:16.500 big deal. And Rachel Reed writes Shane and Jacob 00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:21.150 Tierney. create Shane as the perfect metaphor 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:24.890 for that. Shane is the perfect metaphor for being 00:17:24.890 --> 00:17:27.309 different in the locker room and literally not 00:17:27.309 --> 00:17:30.609 having a single tool on how to understand it. 00:17:30.690 --> 00:17:33.589 Some people online heavily criticize Shane's 00:17:33.589 --> 00:17:35.430 mom for not creating an environment in which 00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:37.710 Shane could have felt safe for coming out. That 00:17:37.710 --> 00:17:40.490 wasn't on Shane's mom. Shane's mom was certainly 00:17:40.490 --> 00:17:42.750 hockey culture, but that wasn't on Shane's mom. 00:17:42.869 --> 00:17:45.390 Hockey culture made Shane's mom. Shane was just 00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:48.150 as much doing the hockey stuff. As Shane's mom 00:17:48.150 --> 00:17:50.329 was doing the hockey, I don't blame Shane's mom 00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:52.829 for not sort of like thinking in her head, my 00:17:52.829 --> 00:17:55.329 household needs to be a household that's safe 00:17:55.329 --> 00:17:58.450 for Shane to come out. Like it was only as Shane 00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:01.150 was very much an adult that David and Yuna were 00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:03.430 thinking, Shane might be gay. You know, like 00:18:03.430 --> 00:18:05.069 he's not really dating anybody. He might be gay. 00:18:05.089 --> 00:18:06.950 That was like years into his hockey career. So 00:18:06.950 --> 00:18:10.289 just Shane is just like the perfect, perfect, 00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:12.950 can't think of a character that's better written, 00:18:13.069 --> 00:18:17.910 perfect metaphor for why. coming out could be 00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:21.150 so hard for a hockey player. You said about there's 00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:24.670 the love for the game, but then huge questions 00:18:24.670 --> 00:18:27.269 about the culture. Definitely start following 00:18:27.269 --> 00:18:31.170 a great Instagram account of Matt Kenny. I think 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:35.589 his IG is matt .runs. He's so great. He got viral 00:18:35.589 --> 00:18:40.650 because Rachel Reed reposted a Instagram story 00:18:40.650 --> 00:18:43.579 that he had filmed in December. of him reacting 00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:46.420 to heated rivalry. He grew up in Canada, grew 00:18:46.420 --> 00:18:49.500 up in Ontario, hockey player in the Toronto Maple 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:52.420 Leafs farm system, and had to walk away. The 00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:55.220 culture was just too suffocating for him. He 00:18:55.220 --> 00:18:57.299 needed to come out. He needed to live his truth. 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.980 And the trauma of it all really it so much of 00:19:00.980 --> 00:19:02.299 his life, you know, he was diagnosed with MS 00:19:02.299 --> 00:19:05.579 and he was having suicidal ideations and just 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:07.900 has has kind of reformed his life in Palm Springs, 00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:11.319 California. And his outspokenness about hockey 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:14.900 culture versus his experience of being what he 00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:16.640 calls himself a gay hockey player now, which 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.630 he is. That's that's who he is. Such exquisite 00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:22.529 content, such vulnerable, honest content that 00:19:22.529 --> 00:19:25.170 he's creating about his hockey experience that 00:19:25.170 --> 00:19:28.190 resonates so much, not just with fans who know 00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:31.029 about hockey culture and toxic hockey culture, 00:19:31.130 --> 00:19:34.230 but also hockey players himself. And then there's 00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:38.490 the Instagram account Peloton Jesse of another 00:19:38.490 --> 00:19:42.740 former hockey player that came out as gay. He 00:19:42.740 --> 00:19:44.559 doesn't talk about this too much publicly, but 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.200 I think he just went on a podcast to talk about 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.279 it more recently. But the only out active professional 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:51.839 hockey player, Luke Prokop, who plays in the 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.359 Edmonton Oilers farm system. These are all guys 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.779 that are just beginning to like chip at the surface 00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:01.119 of this, this divide of like the love for the 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.539 game versus, you know, like how do you kind of 00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:06.160 like punch down on toxic hockey culture? Like 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.920 it's only going to be an individual effort until 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:11.980 me speaking. kind of cynically here until it 00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:14.839 becomes more marketable, until it becomes better 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.420 for like a healthier environment for sponsors 00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:20.640 to be able to support years coming out will lead 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.079 probably like to helping to make the culture 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:25.299 a little less toxic. Can I read you guys something 00:20:25.299 --> 00:20:28.279 that I found? It's an advertisement for clearly 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.519 more than your average recreational hockey kid. 00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:34.440 It's just probably. What are these hockey camps? 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:37.839 Clearly for kids. The title of this part of the 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.259 homepage, it says Unlocking Your Hockey Identity, 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.480 A Guide for Ambitious Players. Hockey player 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:48.019 archetypes are defined roles that describe how 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:51.299 a player creates value on ice. Understanding 00:20:51.299 --> 00:20:54.480 your archetype gives structure to your development, 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.859 helping you train with purpose and play a role 00:20:57.859 --> 00:21:00.759 that translates at higher levels. When I read 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.809 that, I was like, my God. You're coming in as 00:21:03.809 --> 00:21:06.309 a child, right? Because all these sports players 00:21:06.309 --> 00:21:08.769 competing at these elite levels are children. 00:21:09.130 --> 00:21:12.430 And you're already fitting yourself into archetypes. 00:21:12.430 --> 00:21:15.069 As I'm learning more about hockey culture, archetypes 00:21:15.069 --> 00:21:18.509 aren't just like center, you know, wing, left 00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:22.430 wing, right wing, defenders. I mean, there's 00:21:22.430 --> 00:21:25.930 like snipers and playmakers, which Shane is. 00:21:26.109 --> 00:21:29.690 And, you know, like so many. like categories 00:21:29.690 --> 00:21:35.289 of people. And it's like very clearly intertwined 00:21:35.289 --> 00:21:38.970 in these children's identities. This is bred 00:21:38.970 --> 00:21:41.930 into them. Yep. And it's patriarchal and it's 00:21:41.930 --> 00:21:45.430 hierarchical. How does a child separate their 00:21:45.430 --> 00:21:48.769 identity as a person with their identity as a 00:21:48.769 --> 00:21:51.130 hockey player? I mean, that's Shane's fundamental 00:21:51.130 --> 00:21:54.609 dilemma. Right. But he cannot figure that out. 00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:57.690 And that in many ways is also Ilya's fundamental 00:21:57.690 --> 00:22:01.970 dilemma, too. I think I always agreed with you, 00:22:02.049 --> 00:22:04.109 Diana, that like you both. What did you say about 00:22:04.109 --> 00:22:07.109 Ilya and hockey like Ilya? Well, it's not even. 00:22:07.690 --> 00:22:09.490 what I said. It's what Rachel has said numerous 00:22:09.490 --> 00:22:12.950 times. For Ilya, hockey is an escape. He loves 00:22:12.950 --> 00:22:15.509 it, but it was always just an escape. Whereas 00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:18.369 for Shane, it is his life. He plays hockey because 00:22:18.369 --> 00:22:20.869 he loves hockey. It's the only thing he's ever 00:22:20.869 --> 00:22:23.369 known, and it's more important to him than anything 00:22:23.369 --> 00:22:25.410 else. They love hockey a different way, which 00:22:25.410 --> 00:22:28.250 is why I think it's easier for Ilya to believe 00:22:28.250 --> 00:22:31.450 that he can give it up for Shane rather than 00:22:31.450 --> 00:22:33.849 Shane, right? As we know, at the end of Heated 00:22:33.849 --> 00:22:35.910 Valor, when Ilya's like, I want to come out. 00:22:35.990 --> 00:22:37.779 I want to tell everybody. Shane's like, absolutely 00:22:37.779 --> 00:22:39.920 not. We are sticking to the plan because for 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.039 Shane, his hockey career is the most important 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.200 thing to him. For Ilya, it really isn't. Now 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.279 that he's, quote unquote, already escaped Russia, 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.220 he no longer really needs hockey for that escape. 00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:53.539 Right. That's such an interesting dynamic because 00:22:53.539 --> 00:22:57.220 like you're tweezing apart the elements of your 00:22:57.220 --> 00:23:00.460 own personal identity and your identity as a 00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:04.180 hockey player. But if you have these. archetypes 00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:07.319 that you're supposed to mold yourself into, then 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.559 how are you supposed to get yourself out of it? 00:23:10.940 --> 00:23:15.400 Once you retire or once you leave, it just becomes 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.880 too toxic to to survive. I guess it's a good 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:20.779 thing they retire early. They're still young. 00:23:20.859 --> 00:23:23.039 But at the same time, whenever they're having 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:24.980 this conversation, once we retire, we could be 00:23:24.980 --> 00:23:26.960 together for real. Oh, my God, you still have 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.500 like 10 years at least. And you're going to wait 00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:34.059 all that time. And then what? You know, when 00:23:34.059 --> 00:23:36.220 you when you're talking about all of this, I'm 00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:39.240 really naive. I really am because it just makes 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:41.420 me sad. Like I sit here and I listen and I'm 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:43.400 like, that's just sad to me. One of the reasons 00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.359 I probably never cared much about sports because 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:49.400 it's all so toxic to me. And yeah, I'm a soccer 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.779 mom. My kid loves soccer. He's starting to get 00:23:52.779 --> 00:23:55.079 really into it way more serious. He's been playing 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.000 it since he was five, but not in any serious 00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.839 capacity. Now he's actually he's 12. He's in 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:02.109 a good league. And as a soccer mom, you know, 00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:04.309 I sit there and I look around and I see how other 00:24:04.309 --> 00:24:09.049 parents talk to their kids. And it's so toxic 00:24:09.049 --> 00:24:12.829 and I cannot stand it. On some level, I understand 00:24:12.829 --> 00:24:15.609 that maybe that's necessary, right? Like on some 00:24:15.609 --> 00:24:17.470 level, I understand that you need to tell your 00:24:17.470 --> 00:24:19.950 kids, suck it up. Your ankle hurts. Just walk 00:24:19.950 --> 00:24:23.259 it off, right? But I also cannot do that. I'm 00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:26.000 also not that person. Because I'm not that person, 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.039 am I screwing over my son's potential career 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:31.980 for the future, right? Because I'm more of like... 00:24:32.269 --> 00:24:34.250 It's OK, baby, like put some ice on it. Rest. 00:24:34.390 --> 00:24:36.329 Maybe you're going to take a break next week. 00:24:36.430 --> 00:24:38.529 I will never use the language that they that 00:24:38.529 --> 00:24:41.130 I see some parents use for their children. You 00:24:41.130 --> 00:24:44.069 know, I cringe. I cringe. My heart hurts for 00:24:44.069 --> 00:24:46.109 some of these kids. And, you know, and that's 00:24:46.109 --> 00:24:49.410 soccer. I think hockey is even more toxic. You 00:24:49.410 --> 00:24:51.549 know, it all makes me sad and that makes me feel 00:24:51.549 --> 00:24:54.470 naive because these sports give so many opportunities 00:24:54.470 --> 00:24:56.769 to so many people, starting with high school 00:24:56.769 --> 00:24:58.809 and college and whatever else. But at the same 00:24:58.809 --> 00:25:01.349 time, at what cost? At what cost do they give 00:25:01.349 --> 00:25:04.859 up? these opportunities and I don't know I'm 00:25:04.859 --> 00:25:06.880 not made for it I'm just not made for any of 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:08.819 it I think that you've hit the nail on the head 00:25:08.819 --> 00:25:12.220 it's It's when it becomes the only means for 00:25:12.220 --> 00:25:15.380 you to prove yourself. Because like, I will say 00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:19.160 that for me, I was pushed educationally in a 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:22.380 way that I don't envision myself doing for my 00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:24.619 own child. We're all children of immigrants, 00:25:24.859 --> 00:25:27.880 right? Like we get this part, Jamie, Jayanti, 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:31.339 you do too. Like, you know, the push creates 00:25:31.339 --> 00:25:35.619 this really negative association to the thing 00:25:35.619 --> 00:25:38.079 that you're supposed to be driving yourself towards. 00:25:38.890 --> 00:25:41.809 that you may actually love. Obviously, I wanted 00:25:41.809 --> 00:25:45.630 to use my smarts to get where I needed to go. 00:25:45.809 --> 00:25:49.049 It's just, was I ready for that amount of force 00:25:49.049 --> 00:25:51.789 and pressure to come down upon? So that's a very 00:25:51.789 --> 00:25:55.269 complicated dynamic. I see that in other places 00:25:55.269 --> 00:25:58.009 too. We've talked about in other episodes and 00:25:58.009 --> 00:26:00.390 what you brought up is the cycle, the cycle of 00:26:00.390 --> 00:26:03.210 trauma, the cycle of these narratives, the cycle 00:26:03.210 --> 00:26:05.769 of toxic masculinity, the cycle of pressure, 00:26:06.130 --> 00:26:10.329 cycle of... not being able to be yourself, right? 00:26:10.430 --> 00:26:13.910 Because my kid's not going to Kumon. My mom was 00:26:13.910 --> 00:26:15.990 like, are they going to Kumon? I'm not pushing 00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:18.809 my kid to go to Kumon. But am I like keeping 00:26:18.809 --> 00:26:22.410 him or her for being the next math genius? I 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:24.910 don't know. Maybe. Well, it's funny, Anusha, 00:26:24.910 --> 00:26:28.289 because like side note, I was not pushed that 00:26:28.289 --> 00:26:30.250 much academically, even though school, college, 00:26:30.269 --> 00:26:31.710 there's no question of where you're going to 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:34.750 do that or not. But I wish I were because I do 00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:36.950 feel like there was some potential that was untapped. 00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:39.730 Right. So like it's so it's so interesting. That's 00:26:39.730 --> 00:26:43.049 that's an interesting thing. To me. And so it's 00:26:43.049 --> 00:26:45.190 a tightrope. But like also with sports, right? 00:26:45.369 --> 00:26:47.970 You're functioning regardless of how I am, which 00:26:47.970 --> 00:26:50.250 I wanted softer. I wanted more being gentle. 00:26:50.430 --> 00:26:52.670 You still have to understand that you are functioning 00:26:52.670 --> 00:26:56.230 within the system at hand. But the system sucks 00:26:56.230 --> 00:26:58.769 so badly. And I'm just like, well, fix the system. 00:26:58.789 --> 00:27:01.049 But I'm not fixing the system. You know, by the 00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:03.430 time they fix the system, it's going to be too 00:27:03.430 --> 00:27:05.430 late for my kid, right? There's all this like 00:27:05.430 --> 00:27:07.970 duplicity that it's really difficult to navigate 00:27:07.970 --> 00:27:11.630 as a sports parent. I can't even imagine anything 00:27:11.630 --> 00:27:15.029 else. I love hearing your perspective, Diana, 00:27:15.190 --> 00:27:17.410 because again, the lens that I come to heated 00:27:17.410 --> 00:27:19.509 rivalry from is the hockey lens. That's like 00:27:19.509 --> 00:27:23.569 the first, even despite my passion for queer 00:27:23.569 --> 00:27:26.170 media, queer dramas, I see two hockey players 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:27.910 and I'm like, hockey, hockey, hockey. So the, 00:27:27.930 --> 00:27:31.769 and I'm saying this positively, the bias that 00:27:31.769 --> 00:27:36.250 you bring about how sports happens from youth. 00:27:36.730 --> 00:27:39.849 to adult and the toxicity that you see from that 00:27:39.849 --> 00:27:43.109 pipeline from young athletes to professional 00:27:43.109 --> 00:27:46.630 athletes. It's so important for me to hear because 00:27:46.630 --> 00:27:49.309 my daughter's just starting gymnastics and she 00:27:49.309 --> 00:27:51.970 happens to take gymnastics, interestingly, at 00:27:51.970 --> 00:27:55.329 UCLA, which has a phenomenal gymnastics facility 00:27:55.329 --> 00:27:58.650 and club and competitive teams. But dude, gymnastics, 00:27:58.849 --> 00:28:02.480 man, like gymnastics in America. When you think 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.099 about gymnastics in America, you think about 00:28:04.099 --> 00:28:06.339 what happened to young female athletes over the 00:28:06.339 --> 00:28:08.680 decades. Think about abusive coaching. Think 00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:12.279 about what the abuse of coaching led to. Unthinkable 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:15.140 physical abuse and psychological abuse on these 00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:18.099 young athletes. The mental health breaks that... 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.920 young gymnasts now are very famous for taking, 00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.200 criticized for taking, but they still become 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:25.779 champions. My God, Diana, what you said is it's 00:28:25.779 --> 00:28:28.180 just so, so important for us to like sit with 00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:31.180 and think about in response, especially as parents, 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.779 in reflection and response to like how we're 00:28:34.779 --> 00:28:37.519 thinking and learning about sports vis -a -vis 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:39.779 heated rivalry. And then also thinking about, 00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:42.039 again, going back to Shane and Yuna's experience, 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.269 how can we as parents create healthy environments 00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:47.490 in which our kids can do anything they want, 00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:49.650 do it as well as they can? And do you really 00:28:49.650 --> 00:28:53.210 need negativity as a motivating factor or pressure 00:28:53.210 --> 00:28:56.430 as a motivating factor to get our kids to help 00:28:56.430 --> 00:28:58.710 our kids to achieve what we think that they can 00:28:58.710 --> 00:29:00.390 achieve? I actually think my daughter could be 00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:02.630 a really great gymnast. But to Anusha's point 00:29:02.630 --> 00:29:04.849 about I grew up with Indian immigrant parents 00:29:04.849 --> 00:29:06.430 myself, and there's no way I'm ever going to 00:29:06.430 --> 00:29:09.329 push my kids the way that my parents push my 00:29:09.329 --> 00:29:11.490 kids. But are there different tactics that I 00:29:11.490 --> 00:29:16.549 could learn? um to be a healthy and engaged parent 00:29:16.549 --> 00:29:21.130 while also pushing my kid to thrive and to succeed 00:29:21.130 --> 00:29:23.750 and frankly as a school parent and as a high 00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:26.589 like half sports parent myself diane i don't 00:29:26.589 --> 00:29:28.269 know if this is your experience but it's not 00:29:28.269 --> 00:29:30.910 like the sport that my kid is participating in 00:29:30.910 --> 00:29:33.569 is actually interacting with me to help teach 00:29:33.569 --> 00:29:36.609 me how to be a healthier engaged parent as well 00:29:36.609 --> 00:29:39.490 like the coaches are Not coaches are coaching. 00:29:39.769 --> 00:29:41.609 The coaches are not telling me stop screaming 00:29:41.609 --> 00:29:43.650 from the sidelines. Not that I am anyway. But 00:29:43.650 --> 00:29:45.849 we're in our society and our culture. Does that 00:29:45.849 --> 00:29:48.289 engagement come from? I love thinking about where 00:29:48.289 --> 00:29:50.049 different places people are coming from with 00:29:50.049 --> 00:29:52.789 heated rivalry and the biases. Like if somebody 00:29:52.789 --> 00:29:55.269 was really like actually anti hockey or anti 00:29:55.269 --> 00:29:57.849 sports coming into watching heated rivalry or 00:29:57.849 --> 00:30:00.470 reading the book. I think that's actually fascinating 00:30:00.470 --> 00:30:03.630 to me. And how does that lens help you understand 00:30:03.630 --> 00:30:05.990 the content? I think hockey for me is like a. 00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:09.799 side a sidebar I know it's there I know the reason 00:30:09.799 --> 00:30:13.059 it's there but it's not something I focus on 00:30:13.059 --> 00:30:16.500 much I watch a lot of edits of the show and like 00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:18.339 whenever there's like an edit that they put the 00:30:18.339 --> 00:30:20.079 just like the hockey together I'm like oh shit 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:24.329 this show has hockey in it I always I always 00:30:24.329 --> 00:30:27.710 forget. My very first chat about the show was 00:30:27.710 --> 00:30:30.549 my only complaint about heated rivalry. Not enough 00:30:30.549 --> 00:30:33.170 hockey. I needed more hockey. I needed more games. 00:30:33.390 --> 00:30:37.109 And Rachel Reed actually writes hockey so well. 00:30:37.349 --> 00:30:39.509 Let's talk about that part, because that was 00:30:39.509 --> 00:30:42.569 one of our questions. Like, what do you think 00:30:42.569 --> 00:30:46.769 the background that Jacob and Rachel had as love 00:30:46.769 --> 00:30:50.599 of the game hockey fans? this intersection of 00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:54.220 this like now ginormous, massive hit. You're 00:30:54.220 --> 00:30:56.680 talking, we're talking about how to instill change. 00:30:56.980 --> 00:30:58.160 You know, there are two things that you said. 00:30:58.299 --> 00:31:01.359 You said right now it's the change can only come 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:03.759 from one person at a time. And I'm thinking Scott 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:07.779 Hunter coming out indelibly changed Shane and 00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:11.680 Ilya, but now kind of going meta. Rachel Reed 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:16.259 and Jacob Tierney are huge hockey fans. They 00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:20.640 also, as a gay man and a writer of this particular 00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:23.880 type of book, they're traversing this tightrope. 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:26.619 How do they traverse this tightrope? And what 00:31:26.619 --> 00:31:30.299 does this mean for a change in culture? Oh, man. 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.119 Big question, Anusha. I hope you're ready. So 00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.210 big. I just I want to like say I want to say 00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:39.130 something first and then put it aside because 00:31:39.130 --> 00:31:41.349 what I'm about to say is a topic for a totally 00:31:41.349 --> 00:31:42.990 different episode. Just one thing to say about 00:31:42.990 --> 00:31:45.950 Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed. Jacob Tierney 00:31:45.950 --> 00:31:48.250 responded to queer media written by a woman. 00:31:48.309 --> 00:31:51.450 And I just want to say having being interested 00:31:51.450 --> 00:31:55.710 in queer Asian media, that a lot of it is written 00:31:55.710 --> 00:32:00.299 by women from the 1970s to today. There is. big, 00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:03.160 there's academic research and dialogue about 00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:06.000 this. There's a great book, I'm forgetting the 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.819 title of it, but it's by an author named Thomas 00:32:07.819 --> 00:32:11.140 Baudinette, who studied how gay Japanese men 00:32:11.140 --> 00:32:15.660 interact with queer content written by women 00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:18.779 in manga. I just want to throw this out there 00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:21.799 for your listeners, that there is a dialogue, 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:26.359 there is research out there about how gay men 00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:29.859 interact with queer media. written by women and 00:32:29.859 --> 00:32:32.079 what Jacob Tierney did in responding to Rachel 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.980 Reed's media. That is just a whole other conversation. 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:36.579 He's touched upon it a lot, but I'm going to 00:32:36.579 --> 00:32:38.599 leave that alone. Okay. We are not Canadian. 00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:42.619 We are Americans. What is the sport that speaks 00:32:42.619 --> 00:32:46.319 most to our cultural fabric as Americans? I would 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:49.769 say it's baseball and football. the Super Bowl 00:32:49.769 --> 00:32:52.150 is not just a sports event, then the Super Bowl 00:32:52.150 --> 00:32:54.470 is very much a cultural event. Jacob Tierney 00:32:54.470 --> 00:32:56.809 and Rachel Reed are Canadians, and I've been 00:32:56.809 --> 00:32:59.230 in situations, social situations throughout my 00:32:59.230 --> 00:33:01.430 life where I've met a Canadian for the first 00:33:01.430 --> 00:33:05.230 time, and the conversation didn't feel... flowing 00:33:05.230 --> 00:33:08.230 and natural until we started talking about hockey. 00:33:08.430 --> 00:33:10.950 It's like hockey as a culture. It's like these 00:33:10.950 --> 00:33:14.829 athletes as cultural figures, the sport as a 00:33:14.829 --> 00:33:18.309 cultural figure, the arena as the community center. 00:33:18.549 --> 00:33:20.849 Shorzy, the show that Jacob Tierney was previously 00:33:20.849 --> 00:33:23.069 working on before he did a rivalry, touches upon 00:33:23.069 --> 00:33:27.029 the community arena in Sudbury, Ontario, as a 00:33:27.029 --> 00:33:29.150 cultural center, as a community and cultural 00:33:29.150 --> 00:33:32.430 center. So as American fans, I don't think that 00:33:32.430 --> 00:33:35.390 we can begin to understand. Like literally, unless 00:33:35.390 --> 00:33:37.329 we like living in Buffalo or the northern states 00:33:37.329 --> 00:33:39.869 like Minnesota, maybe how hockey plays into the 00:33:39.869 --> 00:33:42.569 cultural fabric of Canada. I recently spoke with 00:33:42.569 --> 00:33:47.309 so that the next president of our PTA is Canadian. 00:33:47.809 --> 00:33:50.190 And again, I live in L .A. So this is really 00:33:50.190 --> 00:33:52.509 great. Our PTA president is Canadian and she's 00:33:52.509 --> 00:33:56.049 very Canadian. She's got a very dry, incredibly 00:33:56.049 --> 00:33:59.809 deep sense of Canadian humor. We were like the 00:33:59.809 --> 00:34:01.250 cover. Like we were talking about like what my 00:34:01.250 --> 00:34:04.640 new role in the PTA is getting coffee. The conversation 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.720 just slips into heated rivalry and hockey. And 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:09.539 she talks about how she like can't watch hockey 00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:11.659 because she gets like too over emotional about 00:34:11.659 --> 00:34:13.420 it. I think she's a Maple Leafs fan. But she 00:34:13.420 --> 00:34:16.380 described heated rivalry as she watched it, not 00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:18.199 because she was interested in hockey and not 00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:19.639 even because she was interested in the show. 00:34:19.739 --> 00:34:22.579 But when she watched it, because she said, as 00:34:22.579 --> 00:34:25.420 soon as I started watching it, I felt how Canadian 00:34:25.420 --> 00:34:30.159 it was. And I think as Americans, we can't really. 00:34:31.869 --> 00:34:34.630 touch that. Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed are 00:34:34.630 --> 00:34:38.130 very embodied Canadians. Heated Rivalry is a 00:34:38.130 --> 00:34:41.750 really Canadian show. Hockey is a tremendous 00:34:41.750 --> 00:34:45.190 part of the fabric of Canadian culture. When 00:34:45.190 --> 00:34:48.809 you asked earlier about why hockey as the sport 00:34:48.809 --> 00:34:52.269 that centers heated rivalry with Rachel Reed 00:34:52.269 --> 00:34:55.340 being a Canadian. Like lacrosse is really big 00:34:55.340 --> 00:34:57.960 and soccer is really big in Canada, but she chose 00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:00.079 hockey because it's so culturally impactful. 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:03.219 And Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reed just do not 00:35:03.219 --> 00:35:06.099 miss that. I would love to see one Canadian's 00:35:06.099 --> 00:35:09.219 game in my life, but that shit is so difficult 00:35:09.219 --> 00:35:11.440 to do because the tickets are so sold out and 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:14.619 that arena is just so packed. Like culturally 00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:17.539 hockey is just so there and Jacob and Rachel 00:35:17.539 --> 00:35:20.960 get it. Again, we said this before, the show 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.079 that Jacob Tierney had most previously worked 00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:25.480 on before Heated Rivalry was a show about hockey. 00:35:25.579 --> 00:35:27.719 He's coming from hockey being a part of the Letterkenny 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:29.559 universe and then going to Shorzy and then going 00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:31.960 to Heated Rivalry. Like hockey is just a big 00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.760 thing about what he does as well. And he is just 00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:38.079 a translator of that, such an exquisite translator 00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:42.840 of hockey culture as both a theme of Heated Rivalry, 00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:46.059 but also a theme to use as a mirror against a 00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:49.110 queer love story. Rachel Reed is very famous 00:35:49.110 --> 00:35:52.489 for needing to take breaks from her hockey passion 00:35:52.489 --> 00:35:55.150 because of all of the disappointments that she's 00:35:55.150 --> 00:35:57.329 experienced as a hockey fan. Disappointments 00:35:57.329 --> 00:35:58.989 that we've all experienced as hockey fans, like 00:35:58.989 --> 00:36:01.309 the Hockey Canada Junior Hockey Scandal. I feel 00:36:01.309 --> 00:36:03.210 like I needed to take a break from being a huge 00:36:03.210 --> 00:36:05.130 fan of the New York Rangers and just step back 00:36:05.130 --> 00:36:07.809 and watch hockey in general. Jacob Tierney and 00:36:07.809 --> 00:36:10.789 Rachel Reed, they just... They get all of that. 00:36:10.809 --> 00:36:14.889 They are just the artistic interpreters of what 00:36:14.889 --> 00:36:18.329 hockey culture means to somebody else's, to a 00:36:18.329 --> 00:36:22.769 character's entire fabric when they grow up in 00:36:22.769 --> 00:36:24.550 this hockey culture, whether it's Shane as a 00:36:24.550 --> 00:36:27.630 Canadian or actually Ilya as a Russian, because 00:36:27.630 --> 00:36:30.130 I actually think that they nail both of that. 00:36:30.230 --> 00:36:33.409 The description that you had of Canadians who 00:36:33.409 --> 00:36:36.610 are hockey fans, it's not even like a fan. It's 00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:39.460 like you just are. You live, you breathe. love 00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:42.980 hockey. It's just part of your nature. And I 00:36:42.980 --> 00:36:46.360 think that is such a rich tapestry to put this 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:50.900 show against because the show is entirely about 00:36:50.900 --> 00:36:56.239 kind of separating the threads of identity because 00:36:56.239 --> 00:37:01.320 nothing is ever 100 % bad or 100 % good, but 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:04.900 you have to kind of separate those threads of 00:37:04.900 --> 00:37:09.889 toxicity from the love. of the game and what 00:37:09.889 --> 00:37:12.889 the game gave you. Because for Shane, it clearly 00:37:12.889 --> 00:37:19.050 gave him this elite way for him to use his autistic 00:37:19.050 --> 00:37:22.489 brain to be amazing at something. But it also 00:37:22.489 --> 00:37:26.469 is the thing that is repressing him from being 00:37:26.469 --> 00:37:32.070 his true self. So I think that it's really, really 00:37:32.070 --> 00:37:34.989 interesting that you talk about it in this way 00:37:34.989 --> 00:37:38.840 for the showrunner and the author. Because like 00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:41.800 in many ways, that's kind of what their characters 00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:45.099 are going through. The autism slice of it, the 00:37:45.099 --> 00:37:49.079 inability for Shane to be able to question the 00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.500 culture because he's always loved it and Hockey 00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:55.260 has always loved him back. And so that provides 00:37:55.260 --> 00:38:00.840 a safety net for him. And then his reckoning 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:04.940 with his queerness shakes that safety. And what 00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:08.070 the show does. There's little discrepancies, 00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:09.489 obviously, between the book and the show. But 00:38:09.489 --> 00:38:11.369 one thing that I love about what the show does 00:38:11.369 --> 00:38:14.929 in regards to shaking Shane's safety foundation 00:38:14.929 --> 00:38:19.170 is when he gives up on his diet whenever he's 00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:22.070 around Ilya. He's on his macrobiotic diet. He's 00:38:22.070 --> 00:38:23.630 going to eat his burnt food while Hayden's eating 00:38:23.630 --> 00:38:26.210 steak. But he will share tuna melts with Ilya. 00:38:26.309 --> 00:38:28.889 That is such a great metaphor for the foundation. 00:38:28.989 --> 00:38:33.750 That's a good one. Shaking. He gives up on the 00:38:33.750 --> 00:38:37.909 self -control because... His sexual desires and 00:38:37.909 --> 00:38:40.170 his sexuality and everything that he's questioning 00:38:40.170 --> 00:38:42.809 is shaking him to the core. 10 out of 10. Chef's 00:38:42.809 --> 00:38:47.130 kiss. Like they do that. Jacob and Rachel do 00:38:47.130 --> 00:38:49.969 that intentionally. And they know that it's going 00:38:49.969 --> 00:38:53.929 to resonate in this obsessive athletic world. 00:38:54.210 --> 00:38:56.030 Yeah. Like going back to that first question 00:38:56.030 --> 00:38:58.670 about like why hockey? Because hockey provides 00:38:58.670 --> 00:39:03.809 that outlet for the obsessive. Hockey allows 00:39:03.809 --> 00:39:06.139 that. But then you're like, OK, but what about 00:39:06.139 --> 00:39:08.360 real life here? Shane's foundation, going back 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:12.019 to that thing of like his autistic focus on hockey 00:39:12.019 --> 00:39:14.699 and hockey being his safe space and then hockey 00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:16.380 all of a sudden not becoming his safe space. 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:21.300 Jacob and Rachel, as fans, deal with that so 00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:24.079 incredibly well because both of them individually 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:27.769 and then together. question those tenants on 00:39:27.769 --> 00:39:30.210 the regular. After being traumatized from the 00:39:30.210 --> 00:39:33.110 Team USA men's locker room scandal, the only 00:39:33.110 --> 00:39:35.429 comfort I could give to myself in those moments 00:39:35.429 --> 00:39:38.670 was at least Jacob and Rachel are going to be 00:39:38.670 --> 00:39:41.469 on it because those two are the experts on being 00:39:41.469 --> 00:39:44.409 on it in terms of responding to all of this different 00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:46.670 toxicity that occurs in hockey. Her messaging 00:39:46.670 --> 00:39:48.940 about what... what happened in the locker room. 00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:51.320 Her messaging about hockey teams will have far 00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.960 more social resonance than anything the NHL could 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:57.559 ever do. Her media hand will win. Hockey's will 00:39:57.559 --> 00:40:01.119 lose in regards to the social genuflection of 00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:03.920 what happened in that locker room. I think that 00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.300 probably is the exclamation point on the very 00:40:07.300 --> 00:40:10.199 big question I asked you, Jamie, because... Honestly, 00:40:10.340 --> 00:40:13.260 how do you change culture? You change culture 00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:16.519 by changing culture. It's a circular thing. You 00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:20.539 change it by changing it. You change it by interacting 00:40:20.539 --> 00:40:22.900 with it. You change it by loving it. You change 00:40:22.900 --> 00:40:25.719 it by loving it and questioning it. And you just 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:28.079 change it. Looking back on the rest of the season 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.679 after heated rivalry aired and seeing how different 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:33.400 teams responded to the heated rivalry effect. 00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:36.719 And we know now there's so many heated rivalry 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:39.789 fans. have entered hockey spaces like hockey 00:40:39.789 --> 00:40:42.909 podcast spaces and fandom spaces. We know that 00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:44.610 there are some teams that are supportive of Pride. 00:40:44.789 --> 00:40:48.389 Props to the Montreal Canadiens for showing clips 00:40:48.389 --> 00:40:50.769 of heated rivalry on the Jumbotron at the Bell 00:40:50.769 --> 00:40:53.769 Centre, like the temple of hockey and hockey 00:40:53.769 --> 00:40:57.210 culture. Props to the Canadiens' TV networks 00:40:57.210 --> 00:41:00.800 for having Francois Arnault on. and talking about 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.360 heated rivalry, I get a lot of relief out of 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.940 being at the crossroads of loving hockey, knowing 00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:07.820 as much as I do about hockey, but also being 00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:09.599 a heated rivalry fan and just knowing that heated 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:11.980 rivalry, the social conversation about heated 00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:17.420 rivalry is a far more socially impactful conversation 00:41:17.420 --> 00:41:21.889 than a conversation about... culture within hockey 00:41:21.889 --> 00:41:24.670 itself in terms of what you said, culture changes 00:41:24.670 --> 00:41:27.750 culture. It's really happening at a glacial pace 00:41:27.750 --> 00:41:30.469 within hockey, but I do think it's there. And 00:41:30.469 --> 00:41:33.610 I think having younger, more prominent players 00:41:33.610 --> 00:41:37.349 in the NHL now, post -pandemic, will help the 00:41:37.349 --> 00:41:39.210 change that we're wanting to see from heated 00:41:39.210 --> 00:41:43.869 rivalry enter the professional hockey's ranks 00:41:43.869 --> 00:41:46.969 more. For me, I think about this a lot. It's 00:41:46.969 --> 00:41:49.349 not a matter of if, but it's a matter of when. 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:53.599 the first out hockey player will play in the 00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:56.519 NHL. It's just a matter of, it's going to happen. 00:41:56.599 --> 00:41:59.139 It's going to happen at some point. And I will 00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:02.260 be so happy for it to happen. He has provided 00:42:02.260 --> 00:42:05.239 both a correlation and a causation for that to 00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:07.780 happen. There will be an out hockey player playing 00:42:07.780 --> 00:42:09.880 on the ice one day. There will be on the NHL 00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.579 ice. There will be. It's been so great having 00:42:12.579 --> 00:42:15.360 you and having this amazing conversation. And 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.230 I have to say. You and Heated Rivalry have also 00:42:19.230 --> 00:42:23.150 turned me to a novice, novice, but still a very 00:42:23.150 --> 00:42:27.650 like fervent hockey fan. So kudos to you. Kudos 00:42:27.650 --> 00:42:30.750 to the show. Kudos to the book. I never thought 00:42:30.750 --> 00:42:33.289 I would say these words out loud, but let me 00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:35.869 say them. Let's go Flyers. It doesn't sound right. 00:42:35.989 --> 00:42:38.909 But for you, Anusha, let's go Flyers. I'm so 00:42:38.909 --> 00:42:40.710 glad you're paying attention to hockey. I'm so 00:42:40.710 --> 00:42:43.869 glad you're into it. I'm just so thrilled. that 00:42:43.869 --> 00:42:46.110 heated rivalry has brought so much joy to so 00:42:46.110 --> 00:42:48.630 many people, just like Rachel Reed and I think 00:42:48.630 --> 00:42:51.489 just like Jacob Tierney. Us hockey fans who have 00:42:51.489 --> 00:42:53.469 loved hockey for so long for all of our lives 00:42:53.469 --> 00:42:55.630 have experienced so many ups and downs with the 00:42:55.630 --> 00:42:58.949 sport, especially for women. We've experienced 00:42:58.949 --> 00:43:02.710 probably more downs than up. And so I hope that 00:43:02.710 --> 00:43:05.889 heated rivalry for your listeners can bring a 00:43:05.889 --> 00:43:10.940 sense of optimism and interest in... Like if 00:43:10.940 --> 00:43:13.179 we just paid attention to the sport and we didn't 00:43:13.179 --> 00:43:14.860 have to deal with the toxic culture of professional 00:43:14.860 --> 00:43:17.599 hockey, life would be so much better for all 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:20.000 of us fans. So being able to talk about it a 00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.480 little bit with my bestie has been amazing. Just 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:27.139 thanks for having me on. And also, like, I'm 00:43:27.139 --> 00:43:29.980 just so thrilled. Thank you, Anusha. Well. I 00:43:29.980 --> 00:43:32.139 love that conversation. I'm sure some of you 00:43:32.139 --> 00:43:35.280 noticed I had to run halfway through. So Anusha 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:38.260 held down the fort. So thank you so much, Anusha. 00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:41.559 I had an occasion that I had to go to. So I had 00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.260 to leave. But I did listen to the rest of it. 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:47.659 And it was a really awesome convo. And I learned 00:43:47.659 --> 00:43:51.000 a lot from her. She really is like the perfect. 00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:55.500 host or, you know, guest. She's going to take 00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:59.800 over. Next season, presented by Janthi Daniels. 00:43:59.960 --> 00:44:03.179 No, she's amazing. I can't wait. We're definitely 00:44:03.179 --> 00:44:04.860 going to have her on again. Like, absolutely. 00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:08.099 But she was really fun to listen to. And she's 00:44:08.099 --> 00:44:10.739 so she's like a wealth of knowledge. Like there's 00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:13.219 so much information in that head of hers. That 00:44:13.219 --> 00:44:15.119 was awesome. So thank you for bringing her on. 00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:17.239 And thank you, Janthi, for coming and chatting 00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:19.940 with us. Yes. I mean, you know, this is like 00:44:19.940 --> 00:44:24.969 her. usual mo so i'm not shocked um but yes she 00:44:24.969 --> 00:44:27.429 was wonderful to have thank you jay and the thank 00:44:27.429 --> 00:44:30.429 you for coming on okay anusha what is your moment 00:44:30.429 --> 00:44:35.219 of sunshine this week Well, that is very obvious. 00:44:35.340 --> 00:44:38.519 My moment of sunshine was editing this episode. 00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:40.900 Diana, do you remember? I think one of your first 00:44:40.900 --> 00:44:44.280 moments of sunshine was with your friend, like 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:48.480 your bestie from childhood and like the reconnection 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:52.219 that you had when you had your rivalry and the 00:44:52.219 --> 00:44:54.219 conversations around it. And this just felt like 00:44:54.219 --> 00:44:57.000 another one of those moments and actually total 00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:00.849 bookend because. Jay and Thee and her sister 00:45:00.849 --> 00:45:04.469 and I, I mean, we're like, you know, those college 00:45:04.469 --> 00:45:07.309 friends that like you don't talk for a long time 00:45:07.309 --> 00:45:10.329 and then you pick up like yesterday, right? Like 00:45:10.329 --> 00:45:13.489 I love those friendships. So we hadn't like done 00:45:13.489 --> 00:45:16.449 texts where we were texting daily or anything 00:45:16.449 --> 00:45:19.670 like that for a while. And then when we started 00:45:19.670 --> 00:45:21.730 this podcast, they were one of the first people 00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:24.630 I told. And so now to have her as a guest and 00:45:24.630 --> 00:45:27.769 like listening to the podcast as we edited it 00:45:27.769 --> 00:45:31.079 was just, The best. The best. I love that. Oh, 00:45:31.099 --> 00:45:33.280 I love that. That's very sweet. That is a really 00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.400 nice bookend. That's pretty great. So what's 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:39.019 your moment of sunshine? My Moment of Sunshine 00:45:39.019 --> 00:45:44.219 is actually just the community of loons on threads. 00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:47.119 Now, as you know, there's definitely some like 00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:51.380 toxic, unhinged parts of this fandom that somehow 00:45:51.380 --> 00:45:54.719 make the news here and there. I never see that 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.260 on my timeline. I really don't. Like I have curated 00:45:57.260 --> 00:46:00.880 even the algo within the algo of heated rivalry. 00:46:00.980 --> 00:46:04.039 I have curated to see pretty much only like positive 00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:08.630 stuff. And I have built a pretty great like fandom 00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:11.969 community on threads. I'm enjoying it a lot. 00:46:12.050 --> 00:46:14.690 Some of our listeners also interact with us daily. 00:46:14.989 --> 00:46:18.570 And speaking of like sunshine on top of sunshine, 00:46:18.969 --> 00:46:23.130 one of our listeners sent us a letter from St. 00:46:23.170 --> 00:46:26.869 Petersburg and beautiful drawing of a loon. And 00:46:26.869 --> 00:46:30.110 she is also part of like the fandom community 00:46:30.110 --> 00:46:33.969 that I interact with almost daily. And I don't 00:46:33.969 --> 00:46:37.699 know. I've got a loss for words, which is weird 00:46:37.699 --> 00:46:40.280 for me, as you know, about how much something 00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:44.159 like that means to me and to you, I'm sure, to 00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.400 get fan mail from across the world, you know, 00:46:46.420 --> 00:46:49.360 and it's just I love it so much. That is the 00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.340 biggest sunshine I've had in a really long time. 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.280 Yeah, it's a gorgeous note. The fact that was 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:59.059 handwritten, hand drawn from across the world. 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:01.880 I mean, if you talk about connection and like 00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:06.900 the digital age, like. That's like slow down 00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:10.380 connect. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know. 00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:12.559 And it's like it's one of those things that like 00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:14.460 people don't write letters anymore, you know. 00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:16.119 And now I want letters all the time. Can you 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:18.300 guys send us letters? Send us letters, please. 00:47:18.619 --> 00:47:20.800 Handwritten. I want more handwritten letters. 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:23.860 All of it. I know. I know. It was beautiful. 00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:27.280 I was so moved when I read it. It's just thank 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:29.719 you. I know. I'm just saying I do want to say 00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.980 to you, to your face, that I'm keeping that. 00:47:33.369 --> 00:47:35.570 drawing and I've already put it on my shelf so 00:47:35.570 --> 00:47:39.230 you can come over and look at it but it's mine 00:47:39.230 --> 00:47:43.070 just just yes it is yours I will come over to 00:47:43.070 --> 00:47:46.670 admire it I mean it is from Russia with love 00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:50.090 I could not take that from you I would feel very 00:47:50.090 --> 00:47:52.230 badly thank you I appreciate it even though I'm 00:47:52.230 --> 00:47:55.710 highly jealous well so but you know you could 00:47:55.710 --> 00:47:58.630 have the next one I'll live I'll just come over 00:47:58.630 --> 00:48:02.199 your house anytime I want You know, the invitation 00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:05.880 is always open and welcome. Next week on Everyone 00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:09.059 Deserves Sunshine, we're talking about intimacy 00:48:09.059 --> 00:48:13.679 and all the sex scenes. Ooh. I know. I know. 00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:18.500 I'm so excited. I'm excited. So subscribe now 00:48:18.500 --> 00:48:21.340 wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want 00:48:21.340 --> 00:48:23.320 to say hi to the girls in the crease, find us 00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:25.880 on Instagram, Facebook, and Threads at Everyone 00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:30.530 Deserves Sunshine. Or email us at everyonedeservesunshine 00:48:30.530 --> 00:48:34.150 at gmail .com. New episodes drop on Mondays. 00:48:34.190 --> 00:48:35.170 See you then.