WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299 Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana. 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:04.679 And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease. 00:00:04.820 --> 00:00:07.719 And today we are going to be joined once again 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:12.160 by Dr. Tabitha D 'Angelo to talk more about identity 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:14.519 because we're never done with this subject, right, 00:00:14.660 --> 00:00:16.899 Diana? Well, we're talking about Ilya today. 00:00:17.100 --> 00:00:20.660 So, you know, that makes me really excited. Looking 00:00:20.660 --> 00:00:24.359 forward to that. So should we get to it? Yeah, 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:27.519 let's get started. Joining us today is Dr. Tabitha 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:30.519 D 'Angelo, the same Tabitha who joined us last 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:33.340 week to talk about Shane's identity through the 00:00:33.340 --> 00:00:36.759 Broffenbrenner's framework. Today, we are talking 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.600 about Ilya's identity, which we're super excited 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:42.399 about, as always. And we are using a slightly 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:45.380 different framework. So Tab, do you want to tell 00:00:45.380 --> 00:00:48.240 us about the framework we're using today to discuss 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:50.539 Ilya? Because it's something both Anusha and 00:00:50.539 --> 00:00:52.960 I are not. completely like totally familiar with, 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:55.399 but we did do our homework, but still you are 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:58.359 the experts. So PVAST stands for phenomenological 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:02.939 variant of ecological systems theory. So Bronfenbrenner 00:01:02.939 --> 00:01:06.180 was the ecological systems theory. This is the 00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:08.780 phenomenological variant. What phenomenology 00:01:08.780 --> 00:01:12.480 is asking us to do in this context is to see 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:14.540 development through the eyes of the individual. 00:01:14.819 --> 00:01:19.329 So when we talk about Ilya, From a PVAST perspective, 00:01:19.829 --> 00:01:23.670 we want to sort of imagine what it's like to 00:01:23.670 --> 00:01:26.790 be Ilya. There's five components to the theory. 00:01:26.849 --> 00:01:30.969 And rather than looking at like the whole system, 00:01:31.030 --> 00:01:33.510 although obviously it's part of the system, but 00:01:33.510 --> 00:01:37.069 this is really thinking about development in 00:01:37.069 --> 00:01:40.930 a very more personal way. If we said last week 00:01:40.930 --> 00:01:44.090 the Bronfenbrenner system was to think about 00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:48.599 like not who Shane hit. is, but why Shane is 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:53.060 the way he is. This system is like, how are you 00:01:53.060 --> 00:01:55.819 the way you are given the cards you've been dealt 00:01:55.819 --> 00:01:58.040 with? The architect of this theory is a woman 00:01:58.040 --> 00:01:59.959 named Margaret Beale Spencer. Margaret Beale 00:01:59.959 --> 00:02:02.680 Spencer is still alive. So she was my dissertation 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:05.579 advisor. I feel really lucky. She was, she was 00:02:05.579 --> 00:02:08.740 my mentor. And as she learns more, which is what. 00:02:08.969 --> 00:02:11.590 you know, we should do in science, she's tweaking. 00:02:11.669 --> 00:02:14.229 Right. And so originally that first component 00:02:14.229 --> 00:02:17.669 component was just called risks. And now it's 00:02:17.669 --> 00:02:20.550 called net vulnerability. And so in that component, 00:02:20.750 --> 00:02:23.629 it'll say risks and protective factors. And so 00:02:23.629 --> 00:02:25.990 what we're asking folks to do to think about 00:02:25.990 --> 00:02:28.370 your identity. So everything that you were just 00:02:28.370 --> 00:02:31.030 sort of. you know, initially born into the world 00:02:31.030 --> 00:02:33.969 with, right? So your gender, your neighborhood, 00:02:34.169 --> 00:02:37.050 your family socioeconomic status, even family 00:02:37.050 --> 00:02:39.409 dynamics, right? Is it a two -parent household? 00:02:39.710 --> 00:02:41.849 Is it a one -parent household? Do you have, you 00:02:41.849 --> 00:02:43.949 know, two dads? Do you have two moms? Like whatever 00:02:43.949 --> 00:02:46.490 it is, like it's stuff that it wasn't earned, 00:02:46.569 --> 00:02:48.889 you didn't cause it, but like this is the hand 00:02:48.889 --> 00:02:52.129 you're dealt. Right. And so that is, you know, 00:02:52.129 --> 00:02:54.110 that's true for all of us, no matter where you 00:02:54.110 --> 00:02:57.830 are. Certainly with Ilya being born in Russia, 00:02:57.969 --> 00:03:01.490 like I was looking up some statistics. You probably 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:05.110 know this already, but in 1989, they surveyed 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:08.349 folks in Russia. 31 percent of Russians said 00:03:08.349 --> 00:03:11.659 gay people should be executed. Now, I know that 00:03:11.659 --> 00:03:14.800 that's prior to Ilya being born, but that's the 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:18.219 experience of his parents. Right. So if they 00:03:18.219 --> 00:03:22.039 have a child. who, you know, who's gay. Like, 00:03:22.099 --> 00:03:24.539 that's really scary in this place. And then they 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:28.419 did it again in 1994, and it went down to 23%. 00:03:28.419 --> 00:03:32.319 But still, 23 % of Russians in 1994 were like, 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.620 gay people should be executed. And then 24 % 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:38.199 said they should be isolated, right? So this 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:42.860 is just the country he was born into. And then, 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:44.879 you know, of course, Shane is born into Canada. 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:48.360 Still like, you know, not perfect, but way more 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:50.780 progressive. And the next component is about, 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:53.300 they call it stress, net stress. So what are 00:03:53.300 --> 00:03:56.219 the challenges and what are the supports, right? 00:03:56.300 --> 00:03:59.740 And so, and then it's like, how do I cope with 00:03:59.740 --> 00:04:03.060 these things? And then it's based on how I cope, 00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:07.159 how's my identity developing? And then based 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:10.280 on how my identity develops, what are my outcomes, 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.599 right? And then those outcomes become the net. 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:18.240 vulnerability again, right? So if I am a successful 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:20.680 athlete, now that's a part of my identity. Now 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.399 I earn that, but it's still now going to feed 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:26.519 into how I deal with stress, how I cope, right? 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:29.500 So, and it's just this cyclical model. Okay. 00:04:29.579 --> 00:04:33.060 So you walked us through the whole EVAS framework, 00:04:33.420 --> 00:04:36.579 but now let's meander through it through the 00:04:36.579 --> 00:04:38.779 eyes of heat of rivalry. The first pillar, which 00:04:38.779 --> 00:04:41.889 is what? vulnerability the hand you were dealt 00:04:41.889 --> 00:04:45.730 for me the scene that really encapsulates that 00:04:45.730 --> 00:04:50.790 is when ilia's dad in episode one um where he 00:04:50.790 --> 00:04:54.629 says you listen don't speak understand and he 00:04:54.629 --> 00:04:58.129 says it in russian in front of the boston raiders 00:04:58.129 --> 00:05:01.149 owner and then he says something not flattering 00:05:01.149 --> 00:05:05.149 about ilia in english to the owner and even if 00:05:05.149 --> 00:05:07.870 there were no subtitles you could tell from the 00:05:07.870 --> 00:05:11.870 tone And the way he spoke that it was very demeaning 00:05:11.870 --> 00:05:15.069 right away. And I felt like this is the highlight 00:05:15.069 --> 00:05:18.170 moment of his life. Number one draft pick at 00:05:18.170 --> 00:05:22.290 his party. And this is the way his dad is talking 00:05:22.290 --> 00:05:26.019 to him now. So I don't know what. his net vulnerability 00:05:26.019 --> 00:05:28.100 looks like through those 18 years. Well, it's 00:05:28.100 --> 00:05:31.560 interesting, right? Because much like our discussion 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:34.339 about Shane, we don't necessarily know what life 00:05:34.339 --> 00:05:39.000 was like before, right? We can imply based on 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:43.000 or infer based on clues. But you can imagine 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:47.360 that even though he's a high -level athlete and 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.339 he's being recruited into this prestigious position 00:05:50.339 --> 00:05:53.759 in the NHL, he probably is pretty submissive 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:55.430 to his dad. You know, I don't... claim to know 00:05:55.430 --> 00:05:57.550 everything about Russian culture, but I do get 00:05:57.550 --> 00:05:59.810 the idea that there is this like hyper -masculinity 00:05:59.810 --> 00:06:03.589 and dad's in charge and that, you know, Ilya's 00:06:03.589 --> 00:06:07.689 probably in terms of like emergent identity is 00:06:07.689 --> 00:06:10.850 his identity is he's the kid, right? But it's 00:06:10.850 --> 00:06:14.509 interesting because what getting this position 00:06:14.509 --> 00:06:20.129 in the NHL gives him is it gives him power because 00:06:20.129 --> 00:06:23.350 now he's earning his own money. He's getting 00:06:23.350 --> 00:06:28.470 notoriety. His identity can evolve to a point, 00:06:28.490 --> 00:06:31.810 and we see it in the series, to where he starts 00:06:31.810 --> 00:06:35.050 to assert his own independence a little bit. 00:06:35.089 --> 00:06:36.889 But still, you know, when somebody from home 00:06:36.889 --> 00:06:40.050 calls, everything gets put aside that you could 00:06:40.050 --> 00:06:42.089 tell there's a lot of heaviness with that. When 00:06:42.089 --> 00:06:45.329 we think about stress level, right, stress and 00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:48.610 protective factors, this is a kid. that probably 00:06:48.610 --> 00:06:51.930 had a high level of stress all the time. And 00:06:51.930 --> 00:06:53.810 that's not really normal. Like, it's normal to 00:06:53.810 --> 00:06:56.970 have ebbs and flows of stress. But what I infer 00:06:56.970 --> 00:07:00.370 from his childhood, you know, from his mom probably 00:07:00.370 --> 00:07:02.410 having mental illness, she took her own life, 00:07:02.509 --> 00:07:05.170 dad having this hypermasculinity, he had high 00:07:05.170 --> 00:07:08.449 expectations, that he probably, his cortisol 00:07:08.449 --> 00:07:11.589 levels were probably always high. And that sucks. 00:07:11.970 --> 00:07:15.730 And then... Even though he gets some power with 00:07:15.730 --> 00:07:19.529 the transition into the NHL, he's still living 00:07:19.529 --> 00:07:23.149 this double life. That is stressful every day. 00:07:23.389 --> 00:07:28.110 Right. And so I feel a lot of empathy for Ilya, 00:07:28.329 --> 00:07:31.110 which might be surprising because I used to call 00:07:31.110 --> 00:07:34.550 Diana like an Ilya apologist. But I cannot wait 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:37.029 for this conversation right now. I cannot wait. 00:07:37.230 --> 00:07:40.910 I have been waiting to fight you. on this forever. 00:07:41.250 --> 00:07:42.889 Go ahead. No, no, I was just going to say, like, 00:07:42.930 --> 00:07:45.290 the more I thought about him, the more I really 00:07:45.290 --> 00:07:49.569 thought about his development and his level of 00:07:49.569 --> 00:07:52.029 net stress because, you know, it's challenges 00:07:52.029 --> 00:07:55.269 and supports. And when I think about what I can 00:07:55.269 --> 00:07:58.329 infer about his life, he's got more challenges 00:07:58.329 --> 00:08:01.149 than supports. He certainly has protective factors, 00:08:01.250 --> 00:08:06.310 but, and his temperament and the way he copes, 00:08:06.310 --> 00:08:10.009 he's able to make it work. He doesn't fall apart. 00:08:10.149 --> 00:08:13.610 And in fact, he's really resilient. In the end, 00:08:13.649 --> 00:08:19.949 we see that despite his developmental trajectory, 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:24.449 he's very resilient. But it took me a while to 00:08:24.449 --> 00:08:27.610 get there because that's not where I started 00:08:27.610 --> 00:08:30.990 with Ilya. Okay. My turn. My turn. My turn. My 00:08:30.990 --> 00:08:37.220 turn. Okay. Tab, do you remember when you were 00:08:37.220 --> 00:08:39.419 like calling Ilya an asshole and I was getting 00:08:39.419 --> 00:08:41.759 really upset and you're like, we can we can disagree, 00:08:41.940 --> 00:08:43.740 Diana. There's no reason for you to get upset. 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:47.519 And I'm like, I just don't understand how someone 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:51.759 like you, who is a professor of education, a 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.279 professor of teacher of teachers, can look at 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.580 someone like Ilya and just like. yep, that man's 00:08:58.580 --> 00:09:00.740 an asshole without really understanding where 00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:03.360 he comes from. Because to me, it was so obvious. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.960 I really do think that it has a lot to do with 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:07.960 like the cultural identity, right? And seeing 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:12.090 the Russian man that I am very well. understand 00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:14.110 immediately. Part of the reason I didn't want 00:09:14.110 --> 00:09:15.809 to watch the show to begin with, because I'm 00:09:15.809 --> 00:09:17.470 like, I don't like the way Russians are represented 00:09:17.470 --> 00:09:19.889 and I don't want to see it again. So when I see 00:09:19.889 --> 00:09:22.450 Ilya in that scene, Anusha, that you're describing 00:09:22.450 --> 00:09:24.309 with his dad off to the side, you don't even 00:09:24.309 --> 00:09:26.470 see his dad. You only see Ilya's face, right? 00:09:26.529 --> 00:09:29.570 Only see his like, disassociating from the fact 00:09:29.570 --> 00:09:31.909 that he's there and being berated by his dad 00:09:31.909 --> 00:09:34.289 when he literally just got draft, first draft 00:09:34.289 --> 00:09:36.750 pick. And his dad's like, don't be lazy. And 00:09:36.750 --> 00:09:38.809 I'm sure that happened all the time with him. 00:09:38.850 --> 00:09:42.120 All the time. Because you know the other people 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:44.360 know that it's not a nice thing. You're getting 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:46.700 berated, right? Because if you weren't getting 00:09:46.700 --> 00:09:48.759 berated, it would be in English. You know, everybody 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:51.320 would be able to understand, right? I had a visceral 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:53.580 response to every interaction with him and his 00:09:53.580 --> 00:09:57.019 dad. And when I saw that scene, it was like a 00:09:57.019 --> 00:10:00.679 gut punch. Like, looking at his face, knowing... 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:03.779 The culture, knowing how Russian men are like, 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:05.419 this is how they are. They're like closed off. 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.840 They're not emotionally available. They're, you 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.259 know, hyper, hyper toxic masculine, you know, 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:14.139 most of them anyway. Like I grew up in this in 00:10:14.139 --> 00:10:17.120 some versions of that. And I just like this was 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:19.840 not like a shock to me when I saw him, like when 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:22.179 I saw how he talks to Ilya, because honestly, 00:10:22.419 --> 00:10:26.519 boys like Ilya who have potential are almost 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:30.440 always going to be even more berated. by the 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:33.120 family because you're going to get the fuck out 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.139 of here not for you for us you're going to become 00:10:36.139 --> 00:10:39.259 financially stable so you could help us the fact 00:10:39.259 --> 00:10:42.399 that homophobia is ingrained and it is part of 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:46.700 the the fibers of russian soviet you know society 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:50.259 the fact that his dad is like the very stereotypical 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:53.740 russian man who whose kids especially his boys 00:10:53.740 --> 00:10:57.500 can never do right no matter how successful they 00:10:57.500 --> 00:11:00.100 are the fact that he calls him lazy I just like 00:11:00.100 --> 00:11:02.259 I felt sick it's one of the reasons I stopped 00:11:02.259 --> 00:11:04.379 watching after the first episode like I just 00:11:04.379 --> 00:11:06.519 like I'm like I don't want this shit you know 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.240 hitting me in the face like I I know it too well 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:12.779 it's it's too much and I actually felt like is 00:11:12.779 --> 00:11:16.220 Ilya gonna be so fucked up by that that he's 00:11:16.220 --> 00:11:17.639 just going to be this fucked up character the 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:20.019 entire time because like that can happen you 00:11:20.019 --> 00:11:22.399 know that happens often he could have been and 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.779 so I will just say this in my defense that I 00:11:25.779 --> 00:11:29.100 do think that there's there's a difference between 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:33.980 a reason and an excuse. So I understood that 00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:36.940 his developmental trajectory and his upbringing 00:11:36.940 --> 00:11:40.919 may be the reason, or even his culture, you know, 00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:43.679 the way he was taught to be a man or whatever 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.399 it is, that may be the reason. What I worried 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.720 about is that we were going to excuse potentially 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.600 abusive behavior because when I was first watching 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:54.580 the show, I was like, oh, is he going to be an 00:11:54.580 --> 00:11:58.080 abusive partner to Shane? That was my reaction 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:02.019 was like, well, even if his culture and his, 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.559 you know, what he's learned to believe is, you 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:08.299 know, the way men are supposed to act. I don't 00:12:08.299 --> 00:12:13.259 want to excuse abusive behavior because just 00:12:13.259 --> 00:12:15.840 because I understand the reason why. Right. And 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.440 so now as the show progresses, you see that's, 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:20.179 you know, that's not really what. But I think 00:12:20.179 --> 00:12:24.259 that was my, my. My reaction and truthfully, 00:12:24.299 --> 00:12:26.019 and I think this happens with lots of people, 00:12:26.059 --> 00:12:28.279 but I'll just speak for myself. I've had abusive 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:30.299 relationships. It was like a little triggering 00:12:30.299 --> 00:12:33.679 for me to be like, oh, no, we're not going to 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.179 we're not going to excuse that just because we 00:12:36.179 --> 00:12:38.340 know why. Like, you know what I mean? So and 00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:40.460 when we think about like, you know, intersectional 00:12:40.460 --> 00:12:44.759 identities, he's also multilingual. Right. So, 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:46.799 you know, so there's all these intersections 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.990 that. impede their ability to seamlessly communicate. 00:12:51.230 --> 00:12:55.470 And so that's stress. That's a stressful situation. 00:12:55.830 --> 00:12:58.669 And then how do they cope with it? And I do think 00:12:58.669 --> 00:13:03.149 for the most part, they really learn over time. 00:13:03.169 --> 00:13:06.809 And Ilya in particular gets really good at adaptive 00:13:06.809 --> 00:13:11.220 coping. But there's also... adaptive coping in 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:13.600 a maladaptive environment. And I think that you 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.659 could argue that his upbringing was maladaptive. 00:13:16.659 --> 00:13:20.200 And he may have coped in ways that on paper we 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:23.460 would say are maladaptive, but actually they 00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:26.070 were. protective it's like what he had to do 00:13:26.070 --> 00:13:29.049 right and so you know even his relationship with 00:13:29.049 --> 00:13:31.750 his brother for many years he's like bailing 00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:33.649 the family out and he's sending money and whatever 00:13:33.649 --> 00:13:36.090 and you'd be like you know what tough love cut 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:39.129 him off but it's adaptive in this maladaptive 00:13:39.129 --> 00:13:43.169 family dynamic until he can't do it anymore right 00:13:43.169 --> 00:13:46.090 and then he finally changes that pattern But 00:13:46.090 --> 00:13:48.450 like he's only able to do that after his dad 00:13:48.450 --> 00:13:52.210 dies. Right. He's only able to cut ties with 00:13:52.210 --> 00:13:54.309 his family after his dad dies. And that's for 00:13:54.309 --> 00:13:56.570 a reason. Again, that's culture. Family is everything. 00:13:56.649 --> 00:13:59.429 Like it doesn't matter if you have the worst 00:13:59.429 --> 00:14:02.129 family ever. Your job is to still do whatever 00:14:02.129 --> 00:14:04.389 needs to be done for that family. When I came 00:14:04.389 --> 00:14:06.629 here and as I was growing up, like I didn't understand 00:14:06.629 --> 00:14:08.830 this whole like I cut out my parents. I'm like, 00:14:08.889 --> 00:14:10.669 what the fuck does that even mean? How do you 00:14:10.669 --> 00:14:13.820 just like. cut off family. Like I never understood 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:15.360 that. And I always was just like, this is just 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.179 an American thing. I don't I don't get it, you 00:14:17.179 --> 00:14:18.799 know. So that's why when people are like, why 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.340 doesn't he tell his brother to fuck off? I'm 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:22.899 like, it just is not part of the culture. Western 00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:25.860 people may be like boundaries, but like there's 00:14:25.860 --> 00:14:29.720 no boundaries. There are no boundaries in Russian 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:31.899 culture when it comes to families. There's no 00:14:31.899 --> 00:14:35.120 space between. The reason he's able to move away 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.440 from his family is only because the patriarch. 00:14:39.210 --> 00:14:41.429 is officially gone. That's the only thing that 00:14:41.429 --> 00:14:44.250 frees him. His NHL career doesn't free him. The 00:14:44.250 --> 00:14:46.330 fact that he lives half of the time in Boston, 00:14:46.490 --> 00:14:48.830 oceans away, does not free him. The only thing 00:14:48.830 --> 00:14:51.409 that frees him is the death of his father. And 00:14:51.409 --> 00:14:53.710 at that moment, he's like, fuck you. I'm leaving. 00:14:53.830 --> 00:14:55.450 You could have all of this shit. Leave me alone, 00:14:55.549 --> 00:14:59.090 dog. Talk to me again. Now, do you think that, 00:14:59.110 --> 00:15:00.889 like, I hear what you're saying, and I think 00:15:02.090 --> 00:15:04.029 I think that's true in a lot of cultures, even 00:15:04.029 --> 00:15:07.549 like Italian -American cultures. But do you think 00:15:07.549 --> 00:15:11.669 there is a variable of because he's now exposed 00:15:11.669 --> 00:15:15.889 to other cultures with different expectations 00:15:15.889 --> 00:15:19.830 that you also see possibilities that maybe you 00:15:19.830 --> 00:15:22.169 wouldn't have otherwise seen if you were only 00:15:22.169 --> 00:15:26.730 in your... immediate culture? I think so. I mean, 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:29.590 I really, really think this is true. I think 00:15:29.590 --> 00:15:31.830 there's an, there's an element of like, if you 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:35.230 see another culture, you may be able, you may 00:15:35.230 --> 00:15:38.029 be impacted. Like, how are you not? Like, you 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:41.649 cannot not be no matter how. But there's still, 00:15:41.690 --> 00:15:43.990 I do think there's still like, because proximity 00:15:43.990 --> 00:15:46.429 is part of it, except that even though Ilya's 00:15:46.429 --> 00:15:49.610 dad was really far, Ilya's dad had a lot of power. 00:15:49.769 --> 00:15:52.620 I think Diana's right. Like, you know, when When 00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:57.740 Ilya's dad dies, he doesn't feel as obligated 00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:00.080 to his brother. He probably still does to some 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.679 degree. But the proximity probably helps. The 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.120 power dynamic is different. But we also got to 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:09.399 remember that Ilya is not an American or a Canadian 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:12.799 citizen either, right? Yes. So even though he 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.139 is, quote, released from that family dynamic 00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:19.370 and that Russian... culture and his family, he's 00:16:19.370 --> 00:16:22.149 not released from Russia. And that's why he says, 00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:25.429 I want to not have a Russian passport. So Tab, 00:16:25.509 --> 00:16:28.230 to your point, even though he's in Boston or, 00:16:28.269 --> 00:16:30.029 you know, traveling all over the United States 00:16:30.029 --> 00:16:32.129 and Canada, I think he sees like the possibilities. 00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:34.909 And that's what makes him want to get rid of 00:16:34.909 --> 00:16:37.250 the Russian passport. Once he starts seeing like 00:16:37.250 --> 00:16:39.970 Shane's family and how supportive they are and 00:16:39.970 --> 00:16:42.769 like what it could be, obviously that's going 00:16:42.769 --> 00:16:46.470 to change. At the same time, a lot of that culture 00:16:46.470 --> 00:16:48.710 is going to be ingrained in you forever. You 00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:50.850 know, like, listen, we've lived here for 30 plus 00:16:50.850 --> 00:16:53.169 years. And like some of the things my dad says, 00:16:53.230 --> 00:16:55.610 I'm like, dude, you've been here for 30 plus 00:16:55.610 --> 00:16:58.850 years. Like, cut the shit. I came here when I 00:16:58.850 --> 00:17:00.730 was young, obviously. So anything that could 00:17:00.730 --> 00:17:02.190 have been ingrained in me, that's been gone. 00:17:02.289 --> 00:17:05.829 Right. Even though I grew up in a very culturally 00:17:05.829 --> 00:17:09.890 Russian home. And so I felt it all. But like 00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:12.869 America was like, no. you're going to do better, 00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:15.369 you know? And like, so I did better. But I'm 00:17:15.369 --> 00:17:16.710 just saying, does it mean that you're going to 00:17:16.710 --> 00:17:19.390 let go of all of your culture? And you don't 00:17:19.390 --> 00:17:21.369 have to. I'm just saying, you know, it doesn't 00:17:21.369 --> 00:17:25.450 necessarily change your life stage outcomes. 00:17:25.690 --> 00:17:27.750 When I'm reading all these developmental theories, 00:17:27.910 --> 00:17:30.549 the thing that always comes to mind, and these 00:17:30.549 --> 00:17:33.549 are always obviously multifactorial. There's 00:17:33.549 --> 00:17:37.130 so much cross -pollination. But if you think 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:40.579 about Ilya and his brother, they grew up. in 00:17:40.579 --> 00:17:43.859 the same kind of household, right? And Ilya is 00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:46.779 like, I fundamentally felt like he was different 00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:50.259 than his brother was or his father was. And we 00:17:50.259 --> 00:17:53.119 meet them. There was some indication in him that 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.180 this was going to be a different person than 00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:58.759 those two men. And I often wondered, when you're 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:00.819 in these similar environments, especially if 00:18:00.819 --> 00:18:03.259 you're of similar age like the brothers, what 00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:07.380 was it that moved them so far in their identities 00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:10.799 and sense of self? Like, how would this system 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.940 explain that, for example? Well, I mean, I don't 00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:15.559 know that much about his brother. I don't know 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.480 if you all know more from books, but part of 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.180 it has to be his physical prowess, his athletic 00:18:22.180 --> 00:18:26.299 ability. So from, you know, a net vulnerability, 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:28.920 like a protective factor, like one of his protective 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.440 factors was that he had this talent that was 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:36.160 recognized, that was valued, and that despite 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.019 whatever... obstacles were in his way, his family 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.480 was willing to, you know, provide opportunities 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.319 for him to play hockey and, you know, because 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:49.000 that's not nothing. So that probably was one 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.140 of the biggest protective factors for Ilya because 00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:56.480 he had an opportunity that maybe his brother 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.160 didn't have. And we do sort of see in those scenes, 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:02.140 especially those later scenes, the brother seems 00:19:02.140 --> 00:19:06.339 really resentful. You know, like Ilya's helping, 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:10.380 but like he's not appreciative. He's like, you 00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:13.160 know, this is expected and how dare you? And 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.279 I think he even calls him like the F word at 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.099 one point. He does. You know, and so if Ilya 00:19:18.099 --> 00:19:22.779 hadn't had that or some other kind of talent 00:19:22.779 --> 00:19:27.700 that really opened doors for him, I think his 00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:32.039 outcomes are vastly different. And I think because 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:37.099 his family saw that talent, they saw him as the 00:19:37.099 --> 00:19:39.460 golden ticket. He's born during the collapse 00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:41.500 of the Soviet Union. Right. So you have like 00:19:41.500 --> 00:19:44.640 you have that historical context as to his family 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.500 living through that food scarcity. Right. There's 00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:50.339 a lot of awful stuff happening during that time. 00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:52.240 So like they see this kid as a golden ticket 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.299 and they put like all their resources into him 00:19:55.299 --> 00:19:59.470 and possibly completely ignoring. Alexi right 00:19:59.470 --> 00:20:02.329 we're gonna focus on him you'll benefit from 00:20:02.329 --> 00:20:04.130 this but like fuck you kind of like hang out 00:20:04.130 --> 00:20:06.190 to the side and I think that's obviously another 00:20:06.190 --> 00:20:08.670 reason why he's so resentful of Ilya because 00:20:08.670 --> 00:20:12.410 he took everything and now he owes them we gave 00:20:12.410 --> 00:20:14.190 you everything we put everything in you and now 00:20:14.190 --> 00:20:18.410 you owe us for the rest of your life So you're 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:22.450 like the hockey element, his sheer talent, his 00:20:22.450 --> 00:20:26.269 physicality is actually protective in his balance. 00:20:26.349 --> 00:20:28.109 I don't know what the word is, but like I think 00:20:28.109 --> 00:20:30.490 it's protective, but it also is something that 00:20:30.490 --> 00:20:34.250 causes some great pain because of how like because 00:20:34.250 --> 00:20:37.710 of how much it matters to his family's well -being. 00:20:37.730 --> 00:20:42.460 So I want to go. to this one scene in Sochi because 00:20:42.460 --> 00:20:44.940 he and Shane just slept together for the first 00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:46.940 time ever. And they have this beautiful moment. 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.099 And then the Olympics happens. And then Ilya 00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:52.660 just completely blows him off. Right. And a lot 00:20:52.660 --> 00:20:55.359 of viewers see that moment as like Ilya being 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:57.980 an asshole. And I remember watching that prior 00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:00.759 to that moment where Shane tries to like talk 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:05.420 to him. Ilya. loses to Latvia we know already 00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:07.240 his family is going to be on top of him they're 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:08.920 going to call him a loser all sorts of horrible 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.539 things what we see in Sochi is Ilya standing 00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:15.680 up at the bleachers Shane is kind of like looking 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.319 up at him and we see the text messages from his 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.819 brother right like where are you why aren't you 00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:23.420 picking up dad is so fucking mad so you like 00:21:23.420 --> 00:21:27.019 we're on purpose given that background and yet 00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:29.119 people still don't understand why Ilya is so 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.559 abrasive when Shane comes up to talk to him you 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:33.430 got to put that in perspective Not only did he 00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:36.349 just lose the Olympics in the very beginning, 00:21:36.509 --> 00:21:39.430 but like we're in Sochi. This is only eight months 00:21:39.430 --> 00:21:43.309 after Putin put in. the gay propaganda law, right? 00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:46.250 He called homosexuality propaganda outlawed. 00:21:46.329 --> 00:21:49.230 If you are gay in public, whatever that means, 00:21:49.410 --> 00:21:51.329 it's literally just like holding hands. You can 00:21:51.329 --> 00:21:54.789 be arrested, fined. And for anyone who's like 00:21:54.789 --> 00:21:57.329 a foreign national, especially all those Olympians, 00:21:57.369 --> 00:21:59.609 there could just be a deport. So when Shane comes 00:21:59.609 --> 00:22:02.210 up to him and says, hey, are you OK? He's like, 00:22:02.289 --> 00:22:05.430 go away. We are not safe. He can't actually have 00:22:05.430 --> 00:22:07.650 a full blown conversation, but he's very quickly 00:22:07.650 --> 00:22:09.950 trying to be like, go away. No, I didn't answer 00:22:09.950 --> 00:22:12.230 your boring text, you know, because he understands 00:22:12.230 --> 00:22:14.869 that bad things can happen, right? A, the worst 00:22:14.869 --> 00:22:16.150 thing that could happen to Shane is he could 00:22:16.150 --> 00:22:18.630 be deported. But the worst thing that could happen 00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:21.789 to Ilya is arrest, prison or worse. Remember, 00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:23.309 he's like, I don't want to know what could happen 00:22:23.309 --> 00:22:27.029 to me. He's not trying to be an asshole. He's 00:22:27.029 --> 00:22:29.150 trying to make sure they're both safe in this 00:22:29.150 --> 00:22:34.210 very, very volatile situation. I think that plays 00:22:34.210 --> 00:22:37.910 like very well into this vulnerability level. 00:22:39.069 --> 00:22:41.930 So I don't know. I just thought that scene specifically 00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:44.549 was a very like interesting window into this 00:22:44.549 --> 00:22:46.910 whole framework. But as a viewer, we know things 00:22:46.910 --> 00:22:50.150 that Shane doesn't know. And I think that the 00:22:50.150 --> 00:22:53.970 expectation that in that moment, Ilya would be 00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:57.410 able to be like the most mature or whatever and 00:22:57.410 --> 00:23:00.009 be like, let me explain. Right. But we all know 00:23:00.009 --> 00:23:01.930 that when our stress levels are really high, 00:23:02.150 --> 00:23:05.789 we don't always cope well. And in that moment, 00:23:05.930 --> 00:23:09.690 he's getting. hit from all sides and in that 00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:12.829 moment he's like no like not one more thing I 00:23:12.829 --> 00:23:15.269 can't also bubble wrap you right now right and 00:23:15.269 --> 00:23:18.109 so I see that yeah so that's his what would you 00:23:18.109 --> 00:23:21.130 what would you say is that like his is that like 00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:23.369 maladaptive coping when he's just well I think 00:23:23.369 --> 00:23:25.109 you could say it either way like you could say 00:23:25.109 --> 00:23:28.819 if if you're if in that moment what's really 00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:31.519 important to him is maintaining this relationship 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:35.079 with Shane, then it is maladaptive coping. But 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:37.000 you could also see it from another angle and 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.099 say it's adaptive in a maladaptive environment, 00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:42.339 right? So like given all the stressors that are 00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:44.980 coming his way and the fact that he's got more 00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:48.099 challenges than supports in that moment, maybe 00:23:48.099 --> 00:23:51.700 what he needed at that moment was, no, we're 00:23:51.700 --> 00:23:55.799 not doing this right now. But because that's 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:59.799 not his pattern, That doesn't become his. That's 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:03.819 not his identity. That is not how his his that 00:24:03.819 --> 00:24:07.460 his emergent identity isn't somebody who shuts 00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:09.799 other people down. At least he doesn't shut Shane 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:12.460 down. We don't see that. That's a one off. Right. 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.940 And I think we have to be gentle with with one 00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:18.180 another. We all we all do that sometimes. We 00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:20.880 all have meltdowns. But if you always do that, 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.220 then that becomes your identity. Then you are 00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:26.009 an asshole. Right, right. I'm trying to really 00:24:26.009 --> 00:24:28.670 understand what emergent identity looks like. 00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:31.269 I always thought of Tampa and All -Stars as sort 00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:35.089 of an entirely transformative weekend. And one 00:24:35.089 --> 00:24:37.250 of the things that I was thinking about, because 00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:39.609 we talked about it last time, was Shane coming 00:24:39.609 --> 00:24:44.089 to Tampa. And there's a significant outward change 00:24:44.089 --> 00:24:47.000 in Shane. like he's more confident. You said 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.140 he had a stylist like a bunch of times last time, 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:51.339 right? Like, and that was like the outward manifestation 00:24:51.339 --> 00:24:54.339 of sort of this inner confidence that, you know, 00:24:54.339 --> 00:24:57.460 the shoe is on the other foot. Now he's asking 00:24:57.460 --> 00:25:00.680 Ilya to come up to, you know, his room, you know, 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:03.720 or like he's making the moves. Ilya, though, 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.380 comes to, I always thought of Tampa and All -Stars 00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:10.539 as sort of an entirely transformative weekend 00:25:10.539 --> 00:25:15.609 for both of them. But what I now think of in 00:25:15.609 --> 00:25:20.049 this sort of P -Vest idea is that we actually 00:25:20.049 --> 00:25:24.130 see Shane sort of transformed as he comes into 00:25:24.130 --> 00:25:27.470 Tampa. Right. Like thinking about it in the emergent 00:25:27.470 --> 00:25:30.750 identity framework. Right. And then I'm looking 00:25:30.750 --> 00:25:36.769 at Ilya. So the interaction before this was the 00:25:36.769 --> 00:25:40.650 club scene where there was zero transformation. 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.920 Ilya is like hopping back into his old ways, 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:48.759 compartmentalizing, being sexually provocative. 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.359 And he wants Shane, but he's not. The reactive 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.299 coping. He's extremely reactive coping, right? 00:25:54.740 --> 00:25:58.079 We've become experts, Tab. Yeah. So now he's 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:05.019 coming into Tampa and he could start there, but 00:26:05.019 --> 00:26:08.240 I don't think he does. Like even in the all -star 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:12.660 scene at the bar. He is swallowing that beer 00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:14.960 and he's like, OK, he's like girding himself, 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:18.319 but he's girding himself to have a conversation, 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.559 not leaving. Right. And he doesn't have the like 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:27.009 lubrication of alcohol and the club. And he could 00:26:27.009 --> 00:26:29.009 have just laughed, but he knows he's going to 00:26:29.009 --> 00:26:30.930 be on his team the whole weekend. He knows he's 00:26:30.930 --> 00:26:33.190 captain. So, okay. So fine. His conversation 00:26:33.190 --> 00:26:36.230 with Shane is a little stilted. Yes. But Shane 00:26:36.230 --> 00:26:38.849 is like smoothing this over through the whole 00:26:38.849 --> 00:26:43.269 weekend. You see him far more open than he's. 00:26:43.470 --> 00:26:47.269 Then I feel like we've seen him. And then when 00:26:47.269 --> 00:26:50.190 he, when he has these serious conversations with 00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:54.660 Shane, he is. reticent in the beginning, but 00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:58.359 it doesn't take a lot of prodding for him to 00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.859 open. I wonder what happened to Ilya in those 00:27:01.859 --> 00:27:07.000 few months between the club and Shane that allowed 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.180 this emergent identity to come out because it 00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:16.720 could have not. So we see Shane transformed because 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:19.500 we see the coming out. We see these key moments, 00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:23.630 but we don't see that perspective for Ilya. And 00:27:23.630 --> 00:27:26.730 I wonder, like, what happened? Like, what happened 00:27:26.730 --> 00:27:29.609 to him? Or was it just a perfect spot? That's 00:27:29.609 --> 00:27:32.769 what I wonder. He came transformed. No, he wasn't. 00:27:32.769 --> 00:27:37.089 His emergent identity was available at that weekend. 00:27:37.769 --> 00:27:40.690 So it happened in one weekend? Yes, it happened 00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:42.829 during that conversation with Shane. Here's what 00:27:42.829 --> 00:27:45.630 I see. We see the tuna meltdown. Shane leaves 00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:47.890 and breaks his heart, right? In that episode, 00:27:48.089 --> 00:27:50.150 in that moment, Ilya went all out. He's like, 00:27:50.250 --> 00:27:53.210 I'm husband material. Check me out, right? Shane, 00:27:53.210 --> 00:27:55.470 at the end of it, breaks his heart, leaves. And 00:27:55.470 --> 00:27:58.869 then within like a week, gets a girlfriend. And 00:27:58.869 --> 00:28:02.589 so between Tampa and tuna meltdown and the club 00:28:02.589 --> 00:28:05.160 scene. That is only like two months. And the 00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:08.680 entire two months, Ilya spends watching Shane 00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:12.160 and Rose online. He's following them on social 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:14.940 media. He's at the gym watching them. He is not 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:18.299 transforming into being ready to talk to Shane. 00:28:18.380 --> 00:28:21.839 He is the opposite. He's like, I'm done. I want 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:24.380 to get laid. I'm going to the club. Sees him 00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:26.539 at the club. Now it's even worse because there 00:28:26.539 --> 00:28:29.279 he sees him like actually be very physical with 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.960 Rose, right? The club and the tuna meltdown did 00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:35.039 not result in Ilya wanting to talk to Shane and 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.799 be open with him. It resulted in... being extremely 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:40.980 safeguarded. He realizes they're going to have 00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:43.200 to have a conversation of some sort because he 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.960 doesn't know that he's not with Rose at that 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.720 point. He has no idea. He asks like in four different 00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:50.140 ways what's going on with Rose. What transforms 00:28:50.140 --> 00:28:54.099 him is Shane saying Rose and I are not compatible. 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:57.920 So he didn't come that weekend ready to mend 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.400 things with Shane. He came to that weekend. believing 00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:04.640 that Shane is still with Rose, believing that 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.480 Shane is no longer his. And once he gets the 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:12.119 confirmation that Shane and Rose are not compatible, 00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:15.700 then you see that lifted. That's when the chemistry 00:29:15.700 --> 00:29:18.839 starts to like build up more, even in the room. 00:29:19.549 --> 00:29:21.549 He is trying to push Shane away because that 00:29:21.549 --> 00:29:26.190 is his reactive coping. He is coping by saying, 00:29:26.230 --> 00:29:28.289 yeah, nothing happened. What, you ran away? He's 00:29:28.289 --> 00:29:32.029 using Ilya's stereotypical coping mechanism, 00:29:32.109 --> 00:29:35.690 putting up a wall, being stoic, you know, using 00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:40.029 like dark humor to try to, he's protecting himself 00:29:40.029 --> 00:29:43.440 because he was already hurt. So I disagree. I 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.079 don't think he comes ready and willing to make, 00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:48.359 you know. I feel like you're proving my point, 00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:50.160 though. And this is what I'm talking about. You 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.259 said he was ready before he got there, but he 00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:55.920 wasn't. No, I said he was transformed. I'm not 00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:59.539 talking about what he wants from Shane. I'm talking 00:29:59.539 --> 00:30:03.559 about how Ilya presents himself. I'm talking 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:07.240 about his sense of self. Something has changed 00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:10.769 before he arrives. And I say that because he 00:30:10.769 --> 00:30:14.329 is demonstrating clear vulnerability in every 00:30:14.329 --> 00:30:16.990 moment of that interaction in the all -star. 00:30:17.069 --> 00:30:21.569 He knows he is on the back foot. He has never, 00:30:21.650 --> 00:30:24.769 ever been in the back foot of this relationship. 00:30:24.950 --> 00:30:29.390 Ever. He has always been. And he goes with it. 00:30:29.690 --> 00:30:33.569 His reactive coping is to immediately disengage 00:30:33.569 --> 00:30:37.980 from that. It is. To assert his dominance like 00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:41.500 he did in the club. He knows, I think, even before 00:30:41.500 --> 00:30:46.039 Shane came out, that Shane was not bi like he 00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:49.000 was. That the interaction he was having with 00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:53.579 the woman was tepid compared to, like, he knows. 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:57.240 And he knows he's being hotter with this woman 00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:00.680 than Shane. That is the dominance he would assert. 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:04.960 He did not do that. Every interaction was met. 00:31:05.420 --> 00:31:10.440 from a place of I am behind you. Like I haven't 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.740 caught up to where you are. And I think that's 00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:15.539 what I mean by transformation. I'm not saying 00:31:15.539 --> 00:31:18.440 that he thought he was going to get back together 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:20.819 with Shane. That's not what I mean. I mean the 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:24.619 relational openness that he shows. He allowed 00:31:24.619 --> 00:31:28.859 himself to be vulnerable, not caught up. And 00:31:28.859 --> 00:31:31.519 still open. That's what I mean. I don't think 00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:33.359 he arrived ready. I agree with that. I thought 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.359 you meant he arrived and like was ready to make 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:40.640 amends. Not amends, but like was ready and willing 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.960 to accept Shane. Like, I don't think that's true. 00:31:43.019 --> 00:31:46.839 But I do agree that he was way more vulnerable 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:51.400 and open than he has ever been. I do think in 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.779 some ways it. it works. I think actually it works 00:31:55.779 --> 00:31:58.220 from both of your perspectives, right? So when 00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:01.380 I think about... She's the peacemaker in this 00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:03.480 group. Sorry. Well, no, but when I think about 00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:07.039 Bronfenbrenner as the target, it's like an aerial 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:11.460 view on your development. So you're seeing all 00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:14.880 of, you know, the microsystem, the exosystem, 00:32:14.980 --> 00:32:16.839 the macrosystem, like you kind of can see all 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:19.880 those bidirectional influences, the whole system, 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.369 you're looking at the system. This is like, You're 00:32:23.369 --> 00:32:26.210 wearing a GoPro, right? And you're like following 00:32:26.210 --> 00:32:29.410 these people literally through their eyes, through 00:32:29.410 --> 00:32:31.849 their phenomenological perspective. You got to 00:32:31.849 --> 00:32:35.009 feel what it feels like to be in his skin, to 00:32:35.009 --> 00:32:39.490 be part of his culture, to interact with the 00:32:39.490 --> 00:32:41.349 world in the way he's interacting with the world. 00:32:41.490 --> 00:32:43.910 That's what PVAS is really asking you to do. 00:32:44.009 --> 00:32:47.349 It's asking you to kind of like really see development 00:32:47.349 --> 00:32:50.509 through the eyes of the person. And I think what 00:32:50.509 --> 00:32:53.859 you're describing. Well, there's two things. 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.980 One is I don't think there's, from a PVAS perspective, 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:01.019 there's like a transformational moment. So how 00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:03.900 you transform, like your emergent identity comes 00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:09.619 from patterns of coping, right? Like Ilya, for 00:33:09.619 --> 00:33:12.779 instance, uses a lot of humor and that works 00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:15.059 for him. And so that's his pattern of coping. 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:19.799 Part of his identity is that he's this guy who 00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:22.279 can, you know, he jokes and, you know, you're 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:24.319 boring and you're this and you're that. And for 00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:27.460 the most part, that works for him. And so that 00:33:27.460 --> 00:33:29.839 becomes part of his identity. That's that's who 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.579 he is. Right. And his his his outcome sort of 00:33:33.579 --> 00:33:37.500 like his. you know, his identity outcome is like, 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.000 that's part of who he is, right? So then that 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:43.740 becomes part of, because it's cyclical, right? 00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:48.700 Feeds into the risk, the net vulnerability. So 00:33:48.700 --> 00:33:51.420 that works for the most part until it doesn't 00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:54.519 work, right? And so now if you're in a situation 00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:58.740 where the joking doesn't work. How are you going 00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:01.140 to cope with that? Right. So like now you're 00:34:01.140 --> 00:34:04.200 joking around and maybe Shane, your partner or 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.000 your mom or your brother or whatever, whoever 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.440 it is, is upset by that. And you've got now, 00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:10.280 how do you cope with that? Do you get defensive 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:13.300 or do you adjust? Because in that moment, you're 00:34:13.300 --> 00:34:16.380 like, oh, that's something else is needed. If 00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:19.019 you get in the habit of like if you're an empathetic 00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:22.480 person and you can make adjustments, that then 00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:25.239 feeds into like a new aspect of your identity. 00:34:25.300 --> 00:34:28.139 Right. So like new emergent identities. And so 00:34:28.139 --> 00:34:32.480 I think Anusha, what I hear you identifying is 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:36.440 that the way in which Ilya really operated as 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:39.179 being like more dominant, as being sort of the 00:34:39.179 --> 00:34:42.119 driver of the relationship, all of a sudden. 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.000 it changed a little bit and he had to figure 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.039 out how to cope in that moment. Like, do I still 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:52.739 want to drive the car or do I want to step back 00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.039 and be like, okay, what does this mean in relation 00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:58.860 to Shane? And am I willing to change the way 00:34:58.860 --> 00:35:01.980 I interact a little bit in response to how this 00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:05.079 relationship is evolving? Right. And so is that 00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:08.179 sort of what you're identifying? Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:12.380 Yeah. But the thing about it is that. The reactive 00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:16.940 coping is like a well -worn rug. It's entrenched. 00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:21.920 It's deeply in your bones. For you to step out 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:26.559 of those pathways requires something. And what 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:29.059 is the something, right? And that's what I love. 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:32.760 Perhaps his love for Shane. I mean, I think he 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:34.500 realized he was in love with him already during 00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:37.159 the tuna meltdown. But I think seeing him with 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:40.230 someone else was... really transformative for 00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:43.170 him. Maybe that's what the one thing you're looking 00:35:43.170 --> 00:35:46.050 for that happened, perhaps. Yeah, or also in 00:35:46.050 --> 00:35:49.329 relation to Shane, because Shane changed his 00:35:49.329 --> 00:35:52.329 pattern, right? So Shane, like, you know, so 00:35:52.329 --> 00:35:56.150 many relationships, the risk of it going away 00:35:56.150 --> 00:36:00.889 will cause us to go back to patterns that don't 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:03.829 serve us. And so Shane got to a point where he 00:36:03.829 --> 00:36:08.119 was like, I know what I want. And if this relationship 00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:11.480 can't give me what I want, then maybe it's not 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:14.360 going to happen. But but because they responded 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:19.019 to one another in adaptive ways to because they 00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:22.119 both prioritize the relationship. And, you know, 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.179 I mean, and that isn't that true for every relationship. 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:28.480 Relationships last if. the people in the relationship, 00:36:28.699 --> 00:36:30.860 whether it's friends or romantic or whatever, 00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:34.179 are willing to keep evolving with one another, 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.519 right? Yeah. It's just that I feel like I could 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:42.639 see Shane's change happen because we have his 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.480 perspective in many parts leading up. And I'm 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:48.820 just, and it could, maybe it is, maybe it is 00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:53.179 love, maybe that like jealousy. really made him 00:36:53.179 --> 00:36:56.539 examine, like maybe balance the changed that 00:36:56.539 --> 00:36:59.800 he was finally like. wow, this is deeper than 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.139 I thought. Maybe that was it. Maybe it is love. 00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.480 One of the things that I felt like was so, it 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:07.800 was just remarkably universal about the way you 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.159 describe these elements of development and identity 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:13.280 development. One of the things that I feel like 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.840 is really important to me is this like reactive 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.760 coping, because as someone who has ADHD, I've 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:24.380 spent my maybe whole life kind of working on 00:37:24.380 --> 00:37:29.809 my just. smarts or being able to like hyper focus 00:37:29.809 --> 00:37:35.889 on an interest. And then I run away from the 00:37:35.889 --> 00:37:39.949 actual problem and never fix it. And then at 00:37:39.949 --> 00:37:43.250 some point in your life, like you can't outrun 00:37:43.250 --> 00:37:47.630 your problem. And then you have no coping strategies 00:37:47.630 --> 00:37:50.030 because you've spent your whole life trying not 00:37:50.030 --> 00:37:55.110 to develop them. So then what do you do? What 00:37:55.110 --> 00:37:59.329 is this, therapy, Anusha? But I actually think 00:37:59.329 --> 00:38:01.070 that you're a good example. I mean, when you 00:38:01.070 --> 00:38:03.349 talked about this in your neurodiversity episode, 00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:06.389 I think you're a good example of actually adaptive 00:38:06.389 --> 00:38:09.989 coping, right? Because lots of kids with ADHD 00:38:09.989 --> 00:38:15.349 or neurodiversity will accept the label of, you 00:38:15.349 --> 00:38:17.369 know, lots of people with ADHD get labeled as 00:38:17.369 --> 00:38:21.210 lazy, right? And so if I accept, well, I'm just 00:38:21.210 --> 00:38:24.710 lazy because... doing the work is hard, right? 00:38:24.789 --> 00:38:27.570 And so I have to be willing to work harder than 00:38:27.570 --> 00:38:30.409 everybody else to overcome that challenge. And 00:38:30.409 --> 00:38:33.230 we see that with Ilya. Like, he has to work harder 00:38:33.230 --> 00:38:35.570 than a lot of other people to overcome his challenges. 00:38:35.809 --> 00:38:38.670 Shane does too. And he's being called lazy. Exactly, 00:38:38.829 --> 00:38:42.309 right? And so, but he could just be like, well, 00:38:42.369 --> 00:38:45.429 I guess I'm lazy and just, you know, use drugs 00:38:45.429 --> 00:38:47.409 and fuck girls and, you know, whatever. Like, 00:38:47.409 --> 00:38:51.210 his life trajectory, his... His outcomes could 00:38:51.210 --> 00:38:54.530 be very different if he accepted a different 00:38:54.530 --> 00:38:57.190 definition of himself, which he could do. That 00:38:57.190 --> 00:38:59.530 would be really maladaptive coping. And lots 00:38:59.530 --> 00:39:02.510 of people do it because it is hard. And when 00:39:02.510 --> 00:39:04.409 other people are defining you, we talked about 00:39:04.409 --> 00:39:07.590 this last time, that identity is collusion, right? 00:39:07.650 --> 00:39:10.510 So like we have the feeling how we feel about 00:39:10.510 --> 00:39:13.320 ourselves, but other people are also. treating 00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:15.699 us a certain way. They're telling us who we are 00:39:15.699 --> 00:39:18.400 verbally, non -verbally. We talked about that 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:22.539 too. Like, is identity ever fixed? Well, it could 00:39:22.539 --> 00:39:25.800 be, you know, unless you're willing to put in 00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:27.940 the work and that's, it's not easy. I don't, 00:39:27.940 --> 00:39:31.239 you know, we, I asked last time, like, what happens 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:35.880 when things and systems aren't like, are contradicting? 00:39:35.900 --> 00:39:38.760 I have the same question with PVAS. Like when, 00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:42.079 when elements are contradicting, like what? what 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.500 wins out? Like, maybe that's the question about 00:39:44.500 --> 00:39:48.599 coping that I'm trying to figure out, or is like, 00:39:48.699 --> 00:39:53.079 how do you reconcile when elements of our identity 00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:56.320 feel so different? I don't know. I mean, you 00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:58.460 know, we talked about this a little bit with 00:39:58.460 --> 00:40:00.780 Bronfenbrenner, and it's the same here, that 00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:03.400 there's also bi -directional arrows, right? So 00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:07.260 if, you know, if Ilya... Family's expectations 00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:09.320 are that he's going to be this high level athlete. 00:40:09.579 --> 00:40:13.119 And then how does he cope with when he doesn't 00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.400 feel like going to practice or he's, you know, 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.039 he's struggling or whatever. He chooses to cope 00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:21.699 by working harder. He shows up when even when 00:40:21.699 --> 00:40:25.320 he doesn't feel like it. And so then maybe by 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:27.320 direct, you know, go back to the stress, maybe 00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:29.820 that alleviates some stress with his. father 00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:31.960 because his father's like, oh, he's doing well. 00:40:32.059 --> 00:40:34.739 Right. And so, you know, so those two things 00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:37.739 feed each other. And so I think there is something 00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:39.840 to be said with like what kinds of behaviors 00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:43.460 get reinforced, what kinds of, you know, what 00:40:43.460 --> 00:40:47.559 motivates a particular person. So if his father's 00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:51.960 approval motivates him, then, you know, even 00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:55.019 though it's harsh, it could also be protective. 00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:58.429 Right. Because that's getting him to adapt. in 00:40:58.429 --> 00:41:02.050 that coping, you know, coping with the pressures 00:41:02.050 --> 00:41:04.969 of, you know, being a high level athlete. Right. 00:41:05.050 --> 00:41:07.250 And so and then that feeds into your emergent 00:41:07.250 --> 00:41:09.909 identity. So now I feel really confident, confident 00:41:09.909 --> 00:41:12.550 in this space, even though like maybe with my 00:41:12.550 --> 00:41:15.210 dad, I feel like a big loser. He calls me lazy. 00:41:15.250 --> 00:41:19.210 But in this other context. I'm people see me 00:41:19.210 --> 00:41:22.110 as important and I I'm confident. And so then 00:41:22.110 --> 00:41:24.690 maybe when other stressful things come up, I 00:41:24.690 --> 00:41:26.849 approach them with more confidence. Right. And 00:41:26.849 --> 00:41:31.510 so like there's this constant interaction between 00:41:31.510 --> 00:41:34.590 all of these areas. And so I do think that it's 00:41:34.590 --> 00:41:37.050 just not that simple. There's just too much. 00:41:38.250 --> 00:41:41.949 Back and forth. Not that simple. Let's finish 00:41:41.949 --> 00:41:45.650 up with Ilya's life stage outcome. As of this 00:41:45.650 --> 00:41:49.949 moment. At episode six, like his life stage outcome 00:41:49.949 --> 00:41:52.409 is they say I love you to each other. They're 00:41:52.409 --> 00:41:55.469 at the cottage together. A lot of these adaptive 00:41:55.469 --> 00:41:58.989 behaviors led them here. It's not perfect, obviously, 00:41:59.030 --> 00:42:01.090 because they're still, you know, closeted there. 00:42:01.130 --> 00:42:04.349 They haven't come out. But it's nice end to the 00:42:04.349 --> 00:42:08.590 first arc of his cycle where he finally is able 00:42:08.590 --> 00:42:11.730 to be vulnerable. finally really share his feelings. 00:42:11.789 --> 00:42:13.789 The first one to say I like you and the first 00:42:13.789 --> 00:42:16.489 one to say I love you, which really shows such 00:42:16.489 --> 00:42:20.110 growth for him. So, you know, that's a really 00:42:20.110 --> 00:42:23.409 decent outcome for him at this point. He's like 00:42:23.409 --> 00:42:27.250 a legitimately supportive partner and he's on 00:42:27.250 --> 00:42:30.710 his way to integrating his public and private 00:42:30.710 --> 00:42:33.329 life. We talked about this with Shane and I think 00:42:33.329 --> 00:42:36.269 it's also true for Ilya that That is one of the 00:42:36.269 --> 00:42:39.170 biggest sources of stress is this double life, 00:42:39.349 --> 00:42:42.550 right? And so moving in the direction of integrating 00:42:42.550 --> 00:42:46.230 your public and private life could really be, 00:42:46.389 --> 00:42:52.610 not on purpose, a game changer for, you know, 00:42:52.610 --> 00:42:57.000 for truly positive life stage outcomes. Yeah. 00:42:57.099 --> 00:42:59.780 Like they're physically thinking about moving 00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:02.179 closer to each other. I mean, that's like a huge 00:43:02.179 --> 00:43:04.659 thing, right? His footing with Shane is still 00:43:04.659 --> 00:43:08.099 new in terms of if you think about pathways to 00:43:08.099 --> 00:43:10.860 citizenship and like making permanence and a 00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:13.599 permanent home. Like he is like on the cusp of 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:18.019 a lot of of a lot of change. Right. All of these 00:43:18.019 --> 00:43:22.099 frameworks allow us to just. really understand 00:43:22.099 --> 00:43:25.380 people at a very deep level but also like hold 00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:27.900 our judgment you know perhaps not say like he's 00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:29.780 such an asshole when you see him for the first 00:43:29.780 --> 00:43:32.219 like 20 minutes or whatever let that go i mean 00:43:32.219 --> 00:43:34.820 it's like i'm never gonna let that go in honesty 00:43:34.820 --> 00:43:36.780 too there was also something there's something 00:43:36.780 --> 00:43:39.719 about the alliteration of ilia apologist like 00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:42.760 the flow of that just felt sexy yeah it's really 00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:45.480 good you called me ilia apologist and i think 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:49.550 my insides i saw them like catch on fire. Like 00:43:49.550 --> 00:43:52.369 someone lit a match and I was like, I need to 00:43:52.369 --> 00:43:54.469 walk away from this situation immediately because 00:43:54.469 --> 00:43:58.710 my maladaptive tendencies were going to come 00:43:58.710 --> 00:44:00.710 out. It's important to understand why people 00:44:00.710 --> 00:44:04.170 are the way they are. And yeah, like holding 00:44:04.170 --> 00:44:06.630 withholding that judgment. And maybe that's the 00:44:06.630 --> 00:44:09.449 approach, right? Like talking about your life 00:44:09.449 --> 00:44:12.690 stage, like if you thinking about you have to 00:44:12.690 --> 00:44:14.969 change your environment or you have to change 00:44:14.969 --> 00:44:17.170 the way you approach your environment, right? 00:44:17.250 --> 00:44:20.010 Yeah, that's the only way you can move forward. 00:44:20.230 --> 00:44:22.909 The thing is, if you can really understand what 00:44:22.909 --> 00:44:26.949 makes people tick, it might actually help you 00:44:26.949 --> 00:44:30.550 try to figure out how to. create the environment 00:44:30.550 --> 00:44:33.570 they need to change, maybe. And support one another. 00:44:33.909 --> 00:44:37.550 Thank you so much, Tab, for coming on this show. 00:44:37.710 --> 00:44:40.639 Thank you. Thanks, Tab. So I could have discussed 00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:44.679 this for another couple of days. We don't have 00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:48.300 enough time to talk about Iliot, but I could 00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:50.219 talk about him for quite some time, don't you 00:44:50.219 --> 00:44:53.019 think? Yeah, and I'm just really fascinated by 00:44:53.019 --> 00:44:56.199 the developmental psychology aspect of it. Just 00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:59.539 a different way to think about not just the show, 00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:03.579 but also kind of... maybe real life applications? 00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:07.360 Is that like too crazy to say, right? No, I don't 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:09.039 think that's crazy at all. I mean, this is a 00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.920 real life framework. So we're just using it for, 00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:13.699 you know, fictional characters, but it could 00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:16.320 be applied to anyone that we know. In fact, I 00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.380 think next weekend when we get together, we should 00:45:18.380 --> 00:45:20.219 just do it to all our friends. I'm sure they 00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:22.840 would love it. I'm sure they'd love to be analyzed 00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:26.380 in this way. Yeah, exactly. Speaking of our friends, 00:45:26.440 --> 00:45:28.699 do you want to talk about our sunshine this week? 00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:32.750 What's your sunshine? So mine is anticipatory 00:45:32.750 --> 00:45:37.650 sunshine because you already had your first flyers 00:45:37.650 --> 00:45:41.980 game experience, but I have not. I'm going with 00:45:41.980 --> 00:45:45.480 my family to see the Flyers this weekend. And 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.300 the best part is we're going to be in the gritty 00:45:48.300 --> 00:45:51.739 section. Do you know about this? I do know. Yeah, 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:53.900 we're looking forward to this. Yeah, because 00:45:53.900 --> 00:45:56.340 your daughter loves gritty, right? Yes, my daughter 00:45:56.340 --> 00:45:58.800 does love gritty. So I'm very excited about this 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:02.079 experience. So I'll let you know how it compared 00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:05.280 to yours. Yeah, I'm excited for that. My moment 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.300 of sunshine is also, I guess, anticipatory. We're 00:46:09.300 --> 00:46:11.699 going to D .C. this weekend. to visit some colleges 00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:14.480 with my daughter. So that's going to be exciting. 00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:17.420 That's huge, my gosh. Yeah, so that's my moment 00:46:17.420 --> 00:46:20.820 of sunshine. And hopefully it'll remain a moment 00:46:20.820 --> 00:46:23.179 of sunshine after we're done. I was going to 00:46:23.179 --> 00:46:27.119 say, college visits can be very, very emotional 00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.619 as well as exciting. Yeah, I think so. Next week 00:46:30.619 --> 00:46:33.079 on Everyone Deserves Sunshine, we're talking 00:46:33.079 --> 00:46:36.400 about allyship part two. Because we can never 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:40.480 talk enough about allyship. Correct. Yes. Subscribe 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.119 now wherever you get your podcasts. And if you 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.079 want to say hi to the girls in the crease, find 00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:49.099 us on Instagram, Facebook, and Threads at EveryoneDeservesSunshine. 00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:52.980 Or email us at EveryoneDeservesSunshine at gmail 00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:55.780 .com. New episodes drop on Mondays. See you then.