Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana.
And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease.
And today we are going to be joined once again
by Dr. Tabitha D 'Angelo to talk more about identity
because we're never done with this subject, right,
Diana? Well, we're talking about Ilya today.
So, you know, that makes me really excited. Looking
forward to that. So should we get to it? Yeah,
let's get started. Joining us today is Dr. Tabitha
D 'Angelo, the same Tabitha who joined us last
week to talk about Shane's identity through the
Broffenbrenner's framework. Today, we are talking
about Ilya's identity, which we're super excited
about, as always. And we are using a slightly
different framework. So Tab, do you want to tell
us about the framework we're using today to discuss
Ilya? Because it's something both Anusha and
I are not. completely like totally familiar with,
but we did do our homework, but still you are
the experts. So PVAST stands for phenomenological
variant of ecological systems theory. So Bronfenbrenner
was the ecological systems theory. This is the
phenomenological variant. What phenomenology
is asking us to do in this context is to see
development through the eyes of the individual.
So when we talk about Ilya, From a PVAST perspective,
we want to sort of imagine what it's like to
be Ilya. There's five components to the theory.
And rather than looking at like the whole system,
although obviously it's part of the system, but
this is really thinking about development in
a very more personal way. If we said last week
the Bronfenbrenner system was to think about
like not who Shane hit. is, but why Shane is
the way he is. This system is like, how are you
the way you are given the cards you've been dealt
with? The architect of this theory is a woman
named Margaret Beale Spencer. Margaret Beale
Spencer is still alive. So she was my dissertation
advisor. I feel really lucky. She was, she was
my mentor. And as she learns more, which is what.
you know, we should do in science, she's tweaking.
Right. And so originally that first component
component was just called risks. And now it's
called net vulnerability. And so in that component,
it'll say risks and protective factors. And so
what we're asking folks to do to think about
your identity. So everything that you were just
sort of. you know, initially born into the world
with, right? So your gender, your neighborhood,
your family socioeconomic status, even family
dynamics, right? Is it a two -parent household?
Is it a one -parent household? Do you have, you
know, two dads? Do you have two moms? Like whatever
it is, like it's stuff that it wasn't earned,
you didn't cause it, but like this is the hand
you're dealt. Right. And so that is, you know,
that's true for all of us, no matter where you
are. Certainly with Ilya being born in Russia,
like I was looking up some statistics. You probably
know this already, but in 1989, they surveyed
folks in Russia. 31 percent of Russians said
gay people should be executed. Now, I know that
that's prior to Ilya being born, but that's the
experience of his parents. Right. So if they
have a child. who, you know, who's gay. Like,
that's really scary in this place. And then they
did it again in 1994, and it went down to 23%.
But still, 23 % of Russians in 1994 were like,
gay people should be executed. And then 24 %
said they should be isolated, right? So this
is just the country he was born into. And then,
you know, of course, Shane is born into Canada.
Still like, you know, not perfect, but way more
progressive. And the next component is about,
they call it stress, net stress. So what are
the challenges and what are the supports, right?
And so, and then it's like, how do I cope with
these things? And then it's based on how I cope,
how's my identity developing? And then based
on how my identity develops, what are my outcomes,
right? And then those outcomes become the net.
vulnerability again, right? So if I am a successful
athlete, now that's a part of my identity. Now
I earn that, but it's still now going to feed
into how I deal with stress, how I cope, right?
So, and it's just this cyclical model. Okay.
So you walked us through the whole EVAS framework,
but now let's meander through it through the
eyes of heat of rivalry. The first pillar, which
is what? vulnerability the hand you were dealt
for me the scene that really encapsulates that
is when ilia's dad in episode one um where he
says you listen don't speak understand and he
says it in russian in front of the boston raiders
owner and then he says something not flattering
about ilia in english to the owner and even if
there were no subtitles you could tell from the
tone And the way he spoke that it was very demeaning
right away. And I felt like this is the highlight
moment of his life. Number one draft pick at
his party. And this is the way his dad is talking
to him now. So I don't know what. his net vulnerability
looks like through those 18 years. Well, it's
interesting, right? Because much like our discussion
about Shane, we don't necessarily know what life
was like before, right? We can imply based on
or infer based on clues. But you can imagine
that even though he's a high -level athlete and
he's being recruited into this prestigious position
in the NHL, he probably is pretty submissive
to his dad. You know, I don't... claim to know
everything about Russian culture, but I do get
the idea that there is this like hyper -masculinity
and dad's in charge and that, you know, Ilya's
probably in terms of like emergent identity is
his identity is he's the kid, right? But it's
interesting because what getting this position
in the NHL gives him is it gives him power because
now he's earning his own money. He's getting
notoriety. His identity can evolve to a point,
and we see it in the series, to where he starts
to assert his own independence a little bit.
But still, you know, when somebody from home
calls, everything gets put aside that you could
tell there's a lot of heaviness with that. When
we think about stress level, right, stress and
protective factors, this is a kid. that probably
had a high level of stress all the time. And
that's not really normal. Like, it's normal to
have ebbs and flows of stress. But what I infer
from his childhood, you know, from his mom probably
having mental illness, she took her own life,
dad having this hypermasculinity, he had high
expectations, that he probably, his cortisol
levels were probably always high. And that sucks.
And then... Even though he gets some power with
the transition into the NHL, he's still living
this double life. That is stressful every day.
Right. And so I feel a lot of empathy for Ilya,
which might be surprising because I used to call
Diana like an Ilya apologist. But I cannot wait
for this conversation right now. I cannot wait.
I have been waiting to fight you. on this forever.
Go ahead. No, no, I was just going to say, like,
the more I thought about him, the more I really
thought about his development and his level of
net stress because, you know, it's challenges
and supports. And when I think about what I can
infer about his life, he's got more challenges
than supports. He certainly has protective factors,
but, and his temperament and the way he copes,
he's able to make it work. He doesn't fall apart.
And in fact, he's really resilient. In the end,
we see that despite his developmental trajectory,
he's very resilient. But it took me a while to
get there because that's not where I started
with Ilya. Okay. My turn. My turn. My turn. My
turn. Okay. Tab, do you remember when you were
like calling Ilya an asshole and I was getting
really upset and you're like, we can we can disagree,
Diana. There's no reason for you to get upset.
And I'm like, I just don't understand how someone
like you, who is a professor of education, a
professor of teacher of teachers, can look at
someone like Ilya and just like. yep, that man's
an asshole without really understanding where
he comes from. Because to me, it was so obvious.
I really do think that it has a lot to do with
like the cultural identity, right? And seeing
the Russian man that I am very well. understand
immediately. Part of the reason I didn't want
to watch the show to begin with, because I'm
like, I don't like the way Russians are represented
and I don't want to see it again. So when I see
Ilya in that scene, Anusha, that you're describing
with his dad off to the side, you don't even
see his dad. You only see Ilya's face, right?
Only see his like, disassociating from the fact
that he's there and being berated by his dad
when he literally just got draft, first draft
pick. And his dad's like, don't be lazy. And
I'm sure that happened all the time with him.
All the time. Because you know the other people
know that it's not a nice thing. You're getting
berated, right? Because if you weren't getting
berated, it would be in English. You know, everybody
would be able to understand, right? I had a visceral
response to every interaction with him and his
dad. And when I saw that scene, it was like a
gut punch. Like, looking at his face, knowing...
The culture, knowing how Russian men are like,
this is how they are. They're like closed off.
They're not emotionally available. They're, you
know, hyper, hyper toxic masculine, you know,
most of them anyway. Like I grew up in this in
some versions of that. And I just like this was
not like a shock to me when I saw him, like when
I saw how he talks to Ilya, because honestly,
boys like Ilya who have potential are almost
always going to be even more berated. by the
family because you're going to get the fuck out
of here not for you for us you're going to become
financially stable so you could help us the fact
that homophobia is ingrained and it is part of
the the fibers of russian soviet you know society
the fact that his dad is like the very stereotypical
russian man who whose kids especially his boys
can never do right no matter how successful they
are the fact that he calls him lazy I just like
I felt sick it's one of the reasons I stopped
watching after the first episode like I just
like I'm like I don't want this shit you know
hitting me in the face like I I know it too well
it's it's too much and I actually felt like is
Ilya gonna be so fucked up by that that he's
just going to be this fucked up character the
entire time because like that can happen you
know that happens often he could have been and
so I will just say this in my defense that I
do think that there's there's a difference between
a reason and an excuse. So I understood that
his developmental trajectory and his upbringing
may be the reason, or even his culture, you know,
the way he was taught to be a man or whatever
it is, that may be the reason. What I worried
about is that we were going to excuse potentially
abusive behavior because when I was first watching
the show, I was like, oh, is he going to be an
abusive partner to Shane? That was my reaction
was like, well, even if his culture and his,
you know, what he's learned to believe is, you
know, the way men are supposed to act. I don't
want to excuse abusive behavior because just
because I understand the reason why. Right. And
so now as the show progresses, you see that's,
you know, that's not really what. But I think
that was my, my. My reaction and truthfully,
and I think this happens with lots of people,
but I'll just speak for myself. I've had abusive
relationships. It was like a little triggering
for me to be like, oh, no, we're not going to
we're not going to excuse that just because we
know why. Like, you know what I mean? So and
when we think about like, you know, intersectional
identities, he's also multilingual. Right. So,
you know, so there's all these intersections
that. impede their ability to seamlessly communicate.
And so that's stress. That's a stressful situation.
And then how do they cope with it? And I do think
for the most part, they really learn over time.
And Ilya in particular gets really good at adaptive
coping. But there's also... adaptive coping in
a maladaptive environment. And I think that you
could argue that his upbringing was maladaptive.
And he may have coped in ways that on paper we
would say are maladaptive, but actually they
were. protective it's like what he had to do
right and so you know even his relationship with
his brother for many years he's like bailing
the family out and he's sending money and whatever
and you'd be like you know what tough love cut
him off but it's adaptive in this maladaptive
family dynamic until he can't do it anymore right
and then he finally changes that pattern But
like he's only able to do that after his dad
dies. Right. He's only able to cut ties with
his family after his dad dies. And that's for
a reason. Again, that's culture. Family is everything.
Like it doesn't matter if you have the worst
family ever. Your job is to still do whatever
needs to be done for that family. When I came
here and as I was growing up, like I didn't understand
this whole like I cut out my parents. I'm like,
what the fuck does that even mean? How do you
just like. cut off family. Like I never understood
that. And I always was just like, this is just
an American thing. I don't I don't get it, you
know. So that's why when people are like, why
doesn't he tell his brother to fuck off? I'm
like, it just is not part of the culture. Western
people may be like boundaries, but like there's
no boundaries. There are no boundaries in Russian
culture when it comes to families. There's no
space between. The reason he's able to move away
from his family is only because the patriarch.
is officially gone. That's the only thing that
frees him. His NHL career doesn't free him. The
fact that he lives half of the time in Boston,
oceans away, does not free him. The only thing
that frees him is the death of his father. And
at that moment, he's like, fuck you. I'm leaving.
You could have all of this shit. Leave me alone,
dog. Talk to me again. Now, do you think that,
like, I hear what you're saying, and I think
I think that's true in a lot of cultures, even
like Italian -American cultures. But do you think
there is a variable of because he's now exposed
to other cultures with different expectations
that you also see possibilities that maybe you
wouldn't have otherwise seen if you were only
in your... immediate culture? I think so. I mean,
I really, really think this is true. I think
there's an, there's an element of like, if you
see another culture, you may be able, you may
be impacted. Like, how are you not? Like, you
cannot not be no matter how. But there's still,
I do think there's still like, because proximity
is part of it, except that even though Ilya's
dad was really far, Ilya's dad had a lot of power.
I think Diana's right. Like, you know, when When
Ilya's dad dies, he doesn't feel as obligated
to his brother. He probably still does to some
degree. But the proximity probably helps. The
power dynamic is different. But we also got to
remember that Ilya is not an American or a Canadian
citizen either, right? Yes. So even though he
is, quote, released from that family dynamic
and that Russian... culture and his family, he's
not released from Russia. And that's why he says,
I want to not have a Russian passport. So Tab,
to your point, even though he's in Boston or,
you know, traveling all over the United States
and Canada, I think he sees like the possibilities.
And that's what makes him want to get rid of
the Russian passport. Once he starts seeing like
Shane's family and how supportive they are and
like what it could be, obviously that's going
to change. At the same time, a lot of that culture
is going to be ingrained in you forever. You
know, like, listen, we've lived here for 30 plus
years. And like some of the things my dad says,
I'm like, dude, you've been here for 30 plus
years. Like, cut the shit. I came here when I
was young, obviously. So anything that could
have been ingrained in me, that's been gone.
Right. Even though I grew up in a very culturally
Russian home. And so I felt it all. But like
America was like, no. you're going to do better,
you know? And like, so I did better. But I'm
just saying, does it mean that you're going to
let go of all of your culture? And you don't
have to. I'm just saying, you know, it doesn't
necessarily change your life stage outcomes.
When I'm reading all these developmental theories,
the thing that always comes to mind, and these
are always obviously multifactorial. There's
so much cross -pollination. But if you think
about Ilya and his brother, they grew up. in
the same kind of household, right? And Ilya is
like, I fundamentally felt like he was different
than his brother was or his father was. And we
meet them. There was some indication in him that
this was going to be a different person than
those two men. And I often wondered, when you're
in these similar environments, especially if
you're of similar age like the brothers, what
was it that moved them so far in their identities
and sense of self? Like, how would this system
explain that, for example? Well, I mean, I don't
know that much about his brother. I don't know
if you all know more from books, but part of
it has to be his physical prowess, his athletic
ability. So from, you know, a net vulnerability,
like a protective factor, like one of his protective
factors was that he had this talent that was
recognized, that was valued, and that despite
whatever... obstacles were in his way, his family
was willing to, you know, provide opportunities
for him to play hockey and, you know, because
that's not nothing. So that probably was one
of the biggest protective factors for Ilya because
he had an opportunity that maybe his brother
didn't have. And we do sort of see in those scenes,
especially those later scenes, the brother seems
really resentful. You know, like Ilya's helping,
but like he's not appreciative. He's like, you
know, this is expected and how dare you? And
I think he even calls him like the F word at
one point. He does. You know, and so if Ilya
hadn't had that or some other kind of talent
that really opened doors for him, I think his
outcomes are vastly different. And I think because
his family saw that talent, they saw him as the
golden ticket. He's born during the collapse
of the Soviet Union. Right. So you have like
you have that historical context as to his family
living through that food scarcity. Right. There's
a lot of awful stuff happening during that time.
So like they see this kid as a golden ticket
and they put like all their resources into him
and possibly completely ignoring. Alexi right
we're gonna focus on him you'll benefit from
this but like fuck you kind of like hang out
to the side and I think that's obviously another
reason why he's so resentful of Ilya because
he took everything and now he owes them we gave
you everything we put everything in you and now
you owe us for the rest of your life So you're
like the hockey element, his sheer talent, his
physicality is actually protective in his balance.
I don't know what the word is, but like I think
it's protective, but it also is something that
causes some great pain because of how like because
of how much it matters to his family's well -being.
So I want to go. to this one scene in Sochi because
he and Shane just slept together for the first
time ever. And they have this beautiful moment.
And then the Olympics happens. And then Ilya
just completely blows him off. Right. And a lot
of viewers see that moment as like Ilya being
an asshole. And I remember watching that prior
to that moment where Shane tries to like talk
to him. Ilya. loses to Latvia we know already
his family is going to be on top of him they're
going to call him a loser all sorts of horrible
things what we see in Sochi is Ilya standing
up at the bleachers Shane is kind of like looking
up at him and we see the text messages from his
brother right like where are you why aren't you
picking up dad is so fucking mad so you like
we're on purpose given that background and yet
people still don't understand why Ilya is so
abrasive when Shane comes up to talk to him you
got to put that in perspective Not only did he
just lose the Olympics in the very beginning,
but like we're in Sochi. This is only eight months
after Putin put in. the gay propaganda law, right?
He called homosexuality propaganda outlawed.
If you are gay in public, whatever that means,
it's literally just like holding hands. You can
be arrested, fined. And for anyone who's like
a foreign national, especially all those Olympians,
there could just be a deport. So when Shane comes
up to him and says, hey, are you OK? He's like,
go away. We are not safe. He can't actually have
a full blown conversation, but he's very quickly
trying to be like, go away. No, I didn't answer
your boring text, you know, because he understands
that bad things can happen, right? A, the worst
thing that could happen to Shane is he could
be deported. But the worst thing that could happen
to Ilya is arrest, prison or worse. Remember,
he's like, I don't want to know what could happen
to me. He's not trying to be an asshole. He's
trying to make sure they're both safe in this
very, very volatile situation. I think that plays
like very well into this vulnerability level.
So I don't know. I just thought that scene specifically
was a very like interesting window into this
whole framework. But as a viewer, we know things
that Shane doesn't know. And I think that the
expectation that in that moment, Ilya would be
able to be like the most mature or whatever and
be like, let me explain. Right. But we all know
that when our stress levels are really high,
we don't always cope well. And in that moment,
he's getting. hit from all sides and in that
moment he's like no like not one more thing I
can't also bubble wrap you right now right and
so I see that yeah so that's his what would you
what would you say is that like his is that like
maladaptive coping when he's just well I think
you could say it either way like you could say
if if you're if in that moment what's really
important to him is maintaining this relationship
with Shane, then it is maladaptive coping. But
you could also see it from another angle and
say it's adaptive in a maladaptive environment,
right? So like given all the stressors that are
coming his way and the fact that he's got more
challenges than supports in that moment, maybe
what he needed at that moment was, no, we're
not doing this right now. But because that's
not his pattern, That doesn't become his. That's
not his identity. That is not how his his that
his emergent identity isn't somebody who shuts
other people down. At least he doesn't shut Shane
down. We don't see that. That's a one off. Right.
And I think we have to be gentle with with one
another. We all we all do that sometimes. We
all have meltdowns. But if you always do that,
then that becomes your identity. Then you are
an asshole. Right, right. I'm trying to really
understand what emergent identity looks like.
I always thought of Tampa and All -Stars as sort
of an entirely transformative weekend. And one
of the things that I was thinking about, because
we talked about it last time, was Shane coming
to Tampa. And there's a significant outward change
in Shane. like he's more confident. You said
he had a stylist like a bunch of times last time,
right? Like, and that was like the outward manifestation
of sort of this inner confidence that, you know,
the shoe is on the other foot. Now he's asking
Ilya to come up to, you know, his room, you know,
or like he's making the moves. Ilya, though,
comes to, I always thought of Tampa and All -Stars
as sort of an entirely transformative weekend
for both of them. But what I now think of in
this sort of P -Vest idea is that we actually
see Shane sort of transformed as he comes into
Tampa. Right. Like thinking about it in the emergent
identity framework. Right. And then I'm looking
at Ilya. So the interaction before this was the
club scene where there was zero transformation.
Ilya is like hopping back into his old ways,
compartmentalizing, being sexually provocative.
And he wants Shane, but he's not. The reactive
coping. He's extremely reactive coping, right?
We've become experts, Tab. Yeah. So now he's
coming into Tampa and he could start there, but
I don't think he does. Like even in the all -star
scene at the bar. He is swallowing that beer
and he's like, OK, he's like girding himself,
but he's girding himself to have a conversation,
not leaving. Right. And he doesn't have the like
lubrication of alcohol and the club. And he could
have just laughed, but he knows he's going to
be on his team the whole weekend. He knows he's
captain. So, okay. So fine. His conversation
with Shane is a little stilted. Yes. But Shane
is like smoothing this over through the whole
weekend. You see him far more open than he's.
Then I feel like we've seen him. And then when
he, when he has these serious conversations with
Shane, he is. reticent in the beginning, but
it doesn't take a lot of prodding for him to
open. I wonder what happened to Ilya in those
few months between the club and Shane that allowed
this emergent identity to come out because it
could have not. So we see Shane transformed because
we see the coming out. We see these key moments,
but we don't see that perspective for Ilya. And
I wonder, like, what happened? Like, what happened
to him? Or was it just a perfect spot? That's
what I wonder. He came transformed. No, he wasn't.
His emergent identity was available at that weekend.
So it happened in one weekend? Yes, it happened
during that conversation with Shane. Here's what
I see. We see the tuna meltdown. Shane leaves
and breaks his heart, right? In that episode,
in that moment, Ilya went all out. He's like,
I'm husband material. Check me out, right? Shane,
at the end of it, breaks his heart, leaves. And
then within like a week, gets a girlfriend. And
so between Tampa and tuna meltdown and the club
scene. That is only like two months. And the
entire two months, Ilya spends watching Shane
and Rose online. He's following them on social
media. He's at the gym watching them. He is not
transforming into being ready to talk to Shane.
He is the opposite. He's like, I'm done. I want
to get laid. I'm going to the club. Sees him
at the club. Now it's even worse because there
he sees him like actually be very physical with
Rose, right? The club and the tuna meltdown did
not result in Ilya wanting to talk to Shane and
be open with him. It resulted in... being extremely
safeguarded. He realizes they're going to have
to have a conversation of some sort because he
doesn't know that he's not with Rose at that
point. He has no idea. He asks like in four different
ways what's going on with Rose. What transforms
him is Shane saying Rose and I are not compatible.
So he didn't come that weekend ready to mend
things with Shane. He came to that weekend. believing
that Shane is still with Rose, believing that
Shane is no longer his. And once he gets the
confirmation that Shane and Rose are not compatible,
then you see that lifted. That's when the chemistry
starts to like build up more, even in the room.
He is trying to push Shane away because that
is his reactive coping. He is coping by saying,
yeah, nothing happened. What, you ran away? He's
using Ilya's stereotypical coping mechanism,
putting up a wall, being stoic, you know, using
like dark humor to try to, he's protecting himself
because he was already hurt. So I disagree. I
don't think he comes ready and willing to make,
you know. I feel like you're proving my point,
though. And this is what I'm talking about. You
said he was ready before he got there, but he
wasn't. No, I said he was transformed. I'm not
talking about what he wants from Shane. I'm talking
about how Ilya presents himself. I'm talking
about his sense of self. Something has changed
before he arrives. And I say that because he
is demonstrating clear vulnerability in every
moment of that interaction in the all -star.
He knows he is on the back foot. He has never,
ever been in the back foot of this relationship.
Ever. He has always been. And he goes with it.
His reactive coping is to immediately disengage
from that. It is. To assert his dominance like
he did in the club. He knows, I think, even before
Shane came out, that Shane was not bi like he
was. That the interaction he was having with
the woman was tepid compared to, like, he knows.
And he knows he's being hotter with this woman
than Shane. That is the dominance he would assert.
He did not do that. Every interaction was met.
from a place of I am behind you. Like I haven't
caught up to where you are. And I think that's
what I mean by transformation. I'm not saying
that he thought he was going to get back together
with Shane. That's not what I mean. I mean the
relational openness that he shows. He allowed
himself to be vulnerable, not caught up. And
still open. That's what I mean. I don't think
he arrived ready. I agree with that. I thought
you meant he arrived and like was ready to make
amends. Not amends, but like was ready and willing
to accept Shane. Like, I don't think that's true.
But I do agree that he was way more vulnerable
and open than he has ever been. I do think in
some ways it. it works. I think actually it works
from both of your perspectives, right? So when
I think about... She's the peacemaker in this
group. Sorry. Well, no, but when I think about
Bronfenbrenner as the target, it's like an aerial
view on your development. So you're seeing all
of, you know, the microsystem, the exosystem,
the macrosystem, like you kind of can see all
those bidirectional influences, the whole system,
you're looking at the system. This is like, You're
wearing a GoPro, right? And you're like following
these people literally through their eyes, through
their phenomenological perspective. You got to
feel what it feels like to be in his skin, to
be part of his culture, to interact with the
world in the way he's interacting with the world.
That's what PVAS is really asking you to do.
It's asking you to kind of like really see development
through the eyes of the person. And I think what
you're describing. Well, there's two things.
One is I don't think there's, from a PVAS perspective,
there's like a transformational moment. So how
you transform, like your emergent identity comes
from patterns of coping, right? Like Ilya, for
instance, uses a lot of humor and that works
for him. And so that's his pattern of coping.
Part of his identity is that he's this guy who
can, you know, he jokes and, you know, you're
boring and you're this and you're that. And for
the most part, that works for him. And so that
becomes part of his identity. That's that's who
he is. Right. And his his his outcome sort of
like his. you know, his identity outcome is like,
that's part of who he is, right? So then that
becomes part of, because it's cyclical, right?
Feeds into the risk, the net vulnerability. So
that works for the most part until it doesn't
work, right? And so now if you're in a situation
where the joking doesn't work. How are you going
to cope with that? Right. So like now you're
joking around and maybe Shane, your partner or
your mom or your brother or whatever, whoever
it is, is upset by that. And you've got now,
how do you cope with that? Do you get defensive
or do you adjust? Because in that moment, you're
like, oh, that's something else is needed. If
you get in the habit of like if you're an empathetic
person and you can make adjustments, that then
feeds into like a new aspect of your identity.
Right. So like new emergent identities. And so
I think Anusha, what I hear you identifying is
that the way in which Ilya really operated as
being like more dominant, as being sort of the
driver of the relationship, all of a sudden.
it changed a little bit and he had to figure
out how to cope in that moment. Like, do I still
want to drive the car or do I want to step back
and be like, okay, what does this mean in relation
to Shane? And am I willing to change the way
I interact a little bit in response to how this
relationship is evolving? Right. And so is that
sort of what you're identifying? Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. But the thing about it is that. The reactive
coping is like a well -worn rug. It's entrenched.
It's deeply in your bones. For you to step out
of those pathways requires something. And what
is the something, right? And that's what I love.
Perhaps his love for Shane. I mean, I think he
realized he was in love with him already during
the tuna meltdown. But I think seeing him with
someone else was... really transformative for
him. Maybe that's what the one thing you're looking
for that happened, perhaps. Yeah, or also in
relation to Shane, because Shane changed his
pattern, right? So Shane, like, you know, so
many relationships, the risk of it going away
will cause us to go back to patterns that don't
serve us. And so Shane got to a point where he
was like, I know what I want. And if this relationship
can't give me what I want, then maybe it's not
going to happen. But but because they responded
to one another in adaptive ways to because they
both prioritize the relationship. And, you know,
I mean, and that isn't that true for every relationship.
Relationships last if. the people in the relationship,
whether it's friends or romantic or whatever,
are willing to keep evolving with one another,
right? Yeah. It's just that I feel like I could
see Shane's change happen because we have his
perspective in many parts leading up. And I'm
just, and it could, maybe it is, maybe it is
love, maybe that like jealousy. really made him
examine, like maybe balance the changed that
he was finally like. wow, this is deeper than
I thought. Maybe that was it. Maybe it is love.
One of the things that I felt like was so, it
was just remarkably universal about the way you
describe these elements of development and identity
development. One of the things that I feel like
is really important to me is this like reactive
coping, because as someone who has ADHD, I've
spent my maybe whole life kind of working on
my just. smarts or being able to like hyper focus
on an interest. And then I run away from the
actual problem and never fix it. And then at
some point in your life, like you can't outrun
your problem. And then you have no coping strategies
because you've spent your whole life trying not
to develop them. So then what do you do? What
is this, therapy, Anusha? But I actually think
that you're a good example. I mean, when you
talked about this in your neurodiversity episode,
I think you're a good example of actually adaptive
coping, right? Because lots of kids with ADHD
or neurodiversity will accept the label of, you
know, lots of people with ADHD get labeled as
lazy, right? And so if I accept, well, I'm just
lazy because... doing the work is hard, right?
And so I have to be willing to work harder than
everybody else to overcome that challenge. And
we see that with Ilya. Like, he has to work harder
than a lot of other people to overcome his challenges.
Shane does too. And he's being called lazy. Exactly,
right? And so, but he could just be like, well,
I guess I'm lazy and just, you know, use drugs
and fuck girls and, you know, whatever. Like,
his life trajectory, his... His outcomes could
be very different if he accepted a different
definition of himself, which he could do. That
would be really maladaptive coping. And lots
of people do it because it is hard. And when
other people are defining you, we talked about
this last time, that identity is collusion, right?
So like we have the feeling how we feel about
ourselves, but other people are also. treating
us a certain way. They're telling us who we are
verbally, non -verbally. We talked about that
too. Like, is identity ever fixed? Well, it could
be, you know, unless you're willing to put in
the work and that's, it's not easy. I don't,
you know, we, I asked last time, like, what happens
when things and systems aren't like, are contradicting?
I have the same question with PVAS. Like when,
when elements are contradicting, like what? what
wins out? Like, maybe that's the question about
coping that I'm trying to figure out, or is like,
how do you reconcile when elements of our identity
feel so different? I don't know. I mean, you
know, we talked about this a little bit with
Bronfenbrenner, and it's the same here, that
there's also bi -directional arrows, right? So
if, you know, if Ilya... Family's expectations
are that he's going to be this high level athlete.
And then how does he cope with when he doesn't
feel like going to practice or he's, you know,
he's struggling or whatever. He chooses to cope
by working harder. He shows up when even when
he doesn't feel like it. And so then maybe by
direct, you know, go back to the stress, maybe
that alleviates some stress with his. father
because his father's like, oh, he's doing well.
Right. And so, you know, so those two things
feed each other. And so I think there is something
to be said with like what kinds of behaviors
get reinforced, what kinds of, you know, what
motivates a particular person. So if his father's
approval motivates him, then, you know, even
though it's harsh, it could also be protective.
Right. Because that's getting him to adapt. in
that coping, you know, coping with the pressures
of, you know, being a high level athlete. Right.
And so and then that feeds into your emergent
identity. So now I feel really confident, confident
in this space, even though like maybe with my
dad, I feel like a big loser. He calls me lazy.
But in this other context. I'm people see me
as important and I I'm confident. And so then
maybe when other stressful things come up, I
approach them with more confidence. Right. And
so like there's this constant interaction between
all of these areas. And so I do think that it's
just not that simple. There's just too much.
Back and forth. Not that simple. Let's finish
up with Ilya's life stage outcome. As of this
moment. At episode six, like his life stage outcome
is they say I love you to each other. They're
at the cottage together. A lot of these adaptive
behaviors led them here. It's not perfect, obviously,
because they're still, you know, closeted there.
They haven't come out. But it's nice end to the
first arc of his cycle where he finally is able
to be vulnerable. finally really share his feelings.
The first one to say I like you and the first
one to say I love you, which really shows such
growth for him. So, you know, that's a really
decent outcome for him at this point. He's like
a legitimately supportive partner and he's on
his way to integrating his public and private
life. We talked about this with Shane and I think
it's also true for Ilya that That is one of the
biggest sources of stress is this double life,
right? And so moving in the direction of integrating
your public and private life could really be,
not on purpose, a game changer for, you know,
for truly positive life stage outcomes. Yeah.
Like they're physically thinking about moving
closer to each other. I mean, that's like a huge
thing, right? His footing with Shane is still
new in terms of if you think about pathways to
citizenship and like making permanence and a
permanent home. Like he is like on the cusp of
a lot of of a lot of change. Right. All of these
frameworks allow us to just. really understand
people at a very deep level but also like hold
our judgment you know perhaps not say like he's
such an asshole when you see him for the first
like 20 minutes or whatever let that go i mean
it's like i'm never gonna let that go in honesty
too there was also something there's something
about the alliteration of ilia apologist like
the flow of that just felt sexy yeah it's really
good you called me ilia apologist and i think
my insides i saw them like catch on fire. Like
someone lit a match and I was like, I need to
walk away from this situation immediately because
my maladaptive tendencies were going to come
out. It's important to understand why people
are the way they are. And yeah, like holding
withholding that judgment. And maybe that's the
approach, right? Like talking about your life
stage, like if you thinking about you have to
change your environment or you have to change
the way you approach your environment, right?
Yeah, that's the only way you can move forward.
The thing is, if you can really understand what
makes people tick, it might actually help you
try to figure out how to. create the environment
they need to change, maybe. And support one another.
Thank you so much, Tab, for coming on this show.
Thank you. Thanks, Tab. So I could have discussed
this for another couple of days. We don't have
enough time to talk about Iliot, but I could
talk about him for quite some time, don't you
think? Yeah, and I'm just really fascinated by
the developmental psychology aspect of it. Just
a different way to think about not just the show,
but also kind of... maybe real life applications?
Is that like too crazy to say, right? No, I don't
think that's crazy at all. I mean, this is a
real life framework. So we're just using it for,
you know, fictional characters, but it could
be applied to anyone that we know. In fact, I
think next weekend when we get together, we should
just do it to all our friends. I'm sure they
would love it. I'm sure they'd love to be analyzed
in this way. Yeah, exactly. Speaking of our friends,
do you want to talk about our sunshine this week?
What's your sunshine? So mine is anticipatory
sunshine because you already had your first flyers
game experience, but I have not. I'm going with
my family to see the Flyers this weekend. And
the best part is we're going to be in the gritty
section. Do you know about this? I do know. Yeah,
we're looking forward to this. Yeah, because
your daughter loves gritty, right? Yes, my daughter
does love gritty. So I'm very excited about this
experience. So I'll let you know how it compared
to yours. Yeah, I'm excited for that. My moment
of sunshine is also, I guess, anticipatory. We're
going to D .C. this weekend. to visit some colleges
with my daughter. So that's going to be exciting.
That's huge, my gosh. Yeah, so that's my moment
of sunshine. And hopefully it'll remain a moment
of sunshine after we're done. I was going to
say, college visits can be very, very emotional
as well as exciting. Yeah, I think so. Next week
on Everyone Deserves Sunshine, we're talking
about allyship part two. Because we can never
talk enough about allyship. Correct. Yes. Subscribe
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