Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana.
And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease.
Did you miss us? I missed us. I missed you, Anusha.
I haven't talked to you in, well, since a couple
days ago. Yeah, I missed you, too. I missed our
podcasting. I did. I have to say that. Yeah,
it was nice. All right, well, we're ready to
go, and we are back. This is a very, very full
episode, and I hope this is something that'll
be super interesting to our listeners, because
it sure was for us. This is episode 11, and today
we're talking about identity. Joining us today
is Dr. Tabitha D 'Angelo, a professor of education
with a focus on developmental psychology and
the author of Why Heated Viability Captivates
and What It Teaches Us About Identity. We're
talking about Shane Hollander. So I'm in the
esteemed company of two educators, this time
two teachers. Is that what's happening to me?
Great, great. So I... then have an idea for how
to frame today's episode because we need a lesson
plan. What is the fundamental question we are
answering? I think the question that I'd really
like Dr. Tab to answer through the lens of heated
rivalry and Shane Hollander, because that's what
we do here, is not how we become who we are.
but how we become why we are the way we are.
I like that. Look at you. You did your homework.
I wanted to go back to our original question
that we ask everyone because I want to know because
I don't know. How did you get into the show,
Dr. Delangelo? The origin story. So this is really,
I was hoping you would ask me the origin story.
So I was listening to The Daily. And so I listen
to The Daily when I get ready every... Every
morning, except for Monday mornings, I listen
to your show. And truthfully, they were saying
they didn't really like TV in 2025. There wasn't
much that they liked. But they liked heated rivalry.
And I hadn't watched it. And I love TV. And I
was like, how have I missed this? So they talked
about what it was and that it was about hockey.
all the things. And it sounded really good, but
I hadn't watched it yet. And then it's like the
holidays and I'm super busy or whatever. And
then we all went out to dinner and you two got
into it about Heat at Rivalry and the themes
and the this and the that. And I was really excited
because I already had heard about it and thought
I need to put this on my list. And then after
hearing you all talk about it and how excited
you were about it, I thought, okay, now I...
Now I have to watch it. And so that was my story.
I'd like to kind of take it a step further and
ask, like, what made you write this piece? This
piece set, which says why heated rivalry captivates
and what it teaches us about identity. This is
just the way I think all the time. So ever since
I learned about. Bronfenbrenner in particular,
so this is the ecological systems theory that
we're going to be talking about today, that was
such a big part of my graduate school. It was
like all we did. That everything I watch, I apply
these theories to. It's become just the way I've
learned to understand the world. And so it's
just what I do. It's just how I think. And so
many of my friends are really interested in...
heated rivalry and my students, right? So my
students are also talking about it that I thought,
oh, this is a cool way to get my students to
learn this theoretical framework because they're
thinking about characters that they are interested
in. And so it was just like another way, like
really a teaching method to be like, okay, here's
a way for you to learn about this complex theoretical
framework because we're going to be applying
it to. characters who you love. Walk us through
this. What did you say? The ecological systems
theory, right? So if you think about just like
ecology, just in general, right? If you think
about your garden and you planted a tree and
one side of the tree gets a lot of sun and maybe
the flowers bloom more quickly and the other
side of the tree is shadier and maybe it doesn't
get as many leaves or flowers or whatever. That's
the ecological system like in the natural world.
And so this theory, it's Uri Braun from Brenner.
So basically what he said was we can apply a
systems theory to figure out the why of people,
right? And how everything is influencing each
person's development. So when you see this theory,
like if you Googled it and you did an image search,
you would see something that looks like a target.
And in the center is the individual, is the person.
And then there are these circles that go out
just like a target that literally mimic the.
influences like in proximity. So the immediate
system is the microsystem includes the individual,
but it's like your family, your school, like
the systems that you interact with every day.
And then it goes further out to even things like
local government and media and sociopolitical
context. And so it's really complex, but it's
also really simple in a way because it's just
acknowledging that. your identity is really influenced
by so many factors and that it's fluid. And so
there's another part of it that's called the
chronosystem, which is basically over time. So
if we think about like a person's development,
I know we're talking about Shane today, but like
Ilya, like how old was he when his mom died?
Like if you lose a parent at five, that's different
than losing a parent at 15 or 25 or 50, right?
And so the chronosystem also has an influence
on your development. You know how I always thought
about them? Like I always look at the system
and I see them as like a... Target too. But in
my mind, I always also think about them as nesting
dolls because I'm like, Russian nesting dolls.
You know, you have like the little micro and
then it gets bigger and bigger. So I like the
way, I like thinking about it in that way too.
Makes it more fun for me anyway. But it also
makes sense, right? Because if you had the nesting
dolls, if they're all nested, if you shake the
big one, it impacts every level, right? And so
it does, it works. It works. So then let's talk
about the let's talk about Shane as the individual
in the first system, which is the microsystem.
And that microsystem basically says. who am I,
right? Who is with me? Like, who are my direct
influences? And, you know, Shane carries a lot
of different identities, and none of these identities
exist in isolation. Like, you can't really understand
one without the other with him, and you can't
understand any of them without understanding
the world that he exists within. So, Dr. Tapp,
do you want to talk about the microsystem and
all of Shane's, you know, closest relationships
within that microsystem? So that's the teeny's
tiniest closest system to Shane. It's the yeah,
it's the closest system. But, you know, and that
could change, too, over time. Right. So like
if you were a kid, we might be thinking about
school. But at Shane's age and the age that that
we know him, we're thinking about work and his
work is his hockey team. He's Japanese Canadian.
I think his is his mom. Japanese Canadian and
his dad's white Canadian. So he has these intersectional
racial identities. He's got probably, I'm guessing,
like the pressures of an Asian kid, an immigrant
family. Then he's got his teammates, his coaches,
like all of that is going to impact on him. Also
his... I think his autism is something to consider
in his microsystem because it's going to impact
the way he approaches the world. So all of that
is impacting his immediate system. And what you
see in the beginning, which is interesting, like
even in terms of the relationship with the chronosystem,
and I missed this first time around, you and
I, like we got into this a little bit. I didn't
realize the first time I saw the series, the
span of time. that that was covered. Like, even
though I watched it all, I sort of in my mind,
my schema was like, this was two years. But,
you know, it was so many years. And I think that
his age is also an important variable to consider,
because when you become notable and maybe even
have a lot of money or whatever at 18 or 19,
like that's. amazing, but also like, you know,
that's a lot to handle for like a kid. And basically
he's still a kid. And so I think all of that
in his microsystem is, you know, like his world
of like family and friends and his parents seem
super supportive, but his dad's a former hockey
player. So we know what he wants. We see his
mom being very ambitious about his sponsorships
and things like that. And then his friends. his
teammates, like, are they tight? Like he does
have that one friend. I forget his name, the
one with the kids. Yeah. That seems to be like
his closest friend relationship. But, but mostly,
and maybe because of his neurodivergence, he's
a little bit of a lone wolf, right? So in, so
in terms of like support systems, I don't see
a lot. I don't know that he needs a lot, but
in his microsystem, his closest relationships
are. Probably his family is like the best he's
got. And Ilya. Well, and Ilya is eventually.
Sure. Yeah, yeah. But not initially, right? And
then the other thing with Ilya is it's a secret,
right? So it's, you know, when he texts, they
have to use pseudonyms. They don't live near
one another. They're not always accessible to
one another. So, you know, so that could be,
yeah, that's definitely part of his microsystem,
but maybe a little like maybe not the most supportive
source, at least initially. It's funny to me
because I think I mentioned this to you and you
should the other day that like we in the show,
you know, obviously Shane has had many influences
prior to the show, right? Like he's 17 when we
first meet him. But in the show. We never see
him without knowing Ilya. Like the first time
we ever see both of them on screen, they meet
each other. So we have no idea what he's like.
without Ilya in his life in some way, shape or
form, whether it's secret or, you know, eventually
not. So I think that's really interesting. And
I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, Braun
for Brenner also says that, like, it's not just
about like the people you're interacting with
in your microsystem or the events that are taking
place within those interactions, but it's also
the response to those events that also shape.
why you are and who you are right and shape your
identity and I I think a lot about specifically
when I think about the micro system for Shane
I think about the coming out scene between him
and his mom right and I always think that the
the way you know when he comes to her and he
says to her like I'm sorry he's apologizing for
something he thinks she needs to hear from him
right but the way she responds to him by saying
like you have nothing to be sorry for I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I made you feel like you couldn't
come to me. Like, I think that interaction, right?
Because again, like the response to that event,
it shapes the development. I think that interaction
really what becomes like the foundation that
Shane then builds his like future self on. Oh,
yeah, absolutely. I mean, so much of identity
is collusion, is like the way in which we respond
to one another. And so that coming out scene
is really interesting because, like you said,
Shane sort of did this buffer. I'm sorry. Like
he's not, you know, he's not totally sure how
his mom's going to react. And his mom could have
done a million things. She could have said, how
have you never told me this before? Why didn't
you trust me? Like she could have. said yes I'm
I'm cool with this of course I love you but also
made him feel guilty like she could have done
a million things but what she did you're right
gives him the strength to be like I she's got
my back I'm gonna be okay and so then his emergent
identity as like potentially like a proud gay
man is so much more possible because of that
um so yeah yeah that's a great point to me that
scene Like, is the bookend a scene that happens
in the first episode where, you know, Yuna is
telling him, remember, kids who look like you
don't often see themselves where you are. You
know, she's likely talking about the fact that
he's Japanese -Canadian. And that's clearly such
a core. The way he responds to her, it sounds
like a conversation they've had a lot of times.
You know, the way he's like, yeah, mom, I know,
you know, he's heard this before. And he's like
really made that something that is like a core
feature to him. Which is a lot of pressure. Yeah.
A lot of pressure. Right. But what does that
mean? What he interprets that is like. being
the hockey player he's supposed to be yeah supposed
to be the hockey player that doesn't make waves
you know that is like the perfect poster child
essentially that's how he interprets it and it's
a lot I mean a lot of I think a lot of people
of color in particular deal with this because
they They carry the burden of reinforcing stereotypes
of like their whole group because that's how
our culture, you know, operates. And and so that
is a lot of pressure for him to think, OK, I'm
the Asian guy. If I step out of line, then like
what if like all Asians get. painted with this
brush or you know or Asian kids don't see themselves
as wanting to do that like it is it is a lot
of pressure to be burdened with the idea that
like you alone are gonna are the the torchbearer
for your for your group what you guys are talking
about is really kind of in the mezzo system so
the mezzo system is this like messy middle where
the microsystem, the exosystem interact, right?
And so this is this area where it's the connections
between the levels, right? So like how... does
the family and hockey interact like how does
his private life and his work life and his public
persona how do they sort of collide with one
another and support one another sometimes not
support one another um i think it was like that
with rose right so like the the everybody in
the in the public eye was like yay you know and
they're like i could imagine him being like oh
This is what people want. And I want to please
people. So, you know, like that's a lot of pressure.
Tab. Yeah. Part of your evaluation or analysis
about Shane and the mesosystem, and yes, we're
still at the mesosystem, was, and I think this
is like really important, the difference between
his or the interactions or the conflict between
his private world and his public world. And I
think that is part of the mesosystem that I'm
almost most interested in, especially when it
comes to Shane's character, because he's so,
different in public and in private. I mean, I
just think that it is that's a that's a lot of
emotional labor to carry when when your public
and private life is very different. And, you
know, we see it, you know, obviously he's like
really in the public eye, but it's like that
for lots of people, you know, who might have
very serious. you know, home life happening,
but like, you got to go to work and do your job,
you know, or go to school or whatever it is.
And, and I think that that's what we see with
him is that, you know, he's got to carry, he's
carrying this, but then he still has to get out
on the ice and perform. And he still has to show
up and do commercials and smile and be the person
who, you know, makes a full articulate sentence
in an interview. And, you know, that's, it's
a lot to carry. And I think that. over time,
if you're not able to integrate those things,
it it could result in like, you know, poor health
outcomes. Luckily, we didn't see him have to
carry this for for too long. And he you know,
but 10 years, though, that's 10 years. Yeah.
No, it's like your formative formative years
to like 17 to. Yeah. Yeah. And think about like
how many how many people. never like live their
whole life in the closet. They don't come out.
Right. Or they they, you know, I mean, being
a professional athlete is a good example of a
job where you're unlikely to come out. You know,
if he had a different kind of job, maybe, you
know, maybe he wouldn't have been in the closet.
You know, we don't know. And that but that also
relates to. Again, the chrono system, because
we happen to, this is set at a time when there's
a little bit more acceptance of LGBTQ people
in Canada, not necessarily in that sport, but
in Canada. But on the other hand, like these
indirect influences, like, which is really the
exosystem of like media coverage and, you know,
even his relationship with Rose, like the fact
that he's. Everybody sees everything he does.
That tension between public and private life
is, I wouldn't want to carry that. Yeah. And
you could see how much it like kills them both,
you know, like often enough. Shane's micro expressions,
right? Like you can see the difficulty. Like
if you remember that part where he's watching
Ilya win the cup. And he's with all of his friends.
He's with his microsystem. And he's supposed
to act a certain way, right? And he's supposed
to act like he hates Ilya. You hate him the most,
right, Shane, right? And he's like, yeah, of
course, I hate him the most. And then when all
of his friends kind of like move on, drinking
and whatever they're doing, you could see in
his eyes, like he's so proud. And at the same
time, so sad that like he can't be there on the
ice for Ilya to celebrate with him. And the way
it goes, the biggest moment where, as you know,
that's partly why Scott. Hunter came out so publicly
because he was alone. No one else was there on
the ice for him. And then he's like, all right,
this is like this is my moment. Right. And you
see the same thing when Shane is in episode four
in that montage in the beginning when they're
like back and forth. They're on the ice. They're
in the private. They're they're on the ice again.
They're in the private. Shane is doing the commercial.
Right. And he's texting Ilya and the the producer
of the commercial is like, hey, Shane, like.
come back like we need you in your public life
right now you know right and then and then he's
winning the second cup and he's texting ilia
while everyone is celebrating around him right
and it's just like you could see that and then
you see a lot of sadness right like when when
when when he's finally confronted with it like
you could see all of the the the crisis that
the meso system like has created for him i just
i do like the idea of this public versus private
life which again like you said tab like we all
have obviously but to see it so displayed in
the show was really like really cool you know
the way you guys talked about Ilya and Shane
and especially what you said Diana about like
there's this like sadness that's kind of pulling
at them because they can't be public I'm curious
though Ilya and Shane are essentially in the
same sport the same age the same level of intensity
and success and both in the closet like They're
foils for each other in many ways, but their
circumstances from 17 on in many ways are like
a Venn diagram that overlaps completely. But
it's really interesting to me to understand if
you two as like experts in these sort of theoretical
developmental psychology systems, like is that
protective for the other? Like, is that the fact
that they are literally kind of like the same?
Is that what you're asking? Yeah, right. Right.
Because in so many ways, I see what you're saying.
Like there is there's a fundamental story is
one of loss of of honesty and being true to your
identity. But what about the two of them? In
that, like as a diet, probably so unfair for
me to just ask you this like question. What do
you think, Tab? It's not unfair, but I just don't,
I don't think that the fact that they're both
in a difficult position, that they both have
a similar stress is necessarily protective. I
think Ilya has some, he's got some protective
factors that Shane doesn't have, but Ilya doesn't
necessarily have the family protective factors,
but I don't necessarily. I don't necessarily
think that just the fact that they're kind of
in the same boat is protective. Well, I don't
know, Tab. I'm thinking maybe. You can disagree.
You can disagree. I love it. I don't know if
I'm, I don't know if I'm disagreeing. I don't,
I don't, I'm not necessarily disagreeing because
I do see your point, but I do wonder, and this
is not like one of those like misery loves company
type of situations, but I do wonder at them having
the same secret. uh that they both know not only
that it's the same secret but it's the same secret
for the same reasons right like so i wonder if
it's that is a little bit like emotionally protective
right like you know remember like in the very
beginning when shane asks ilia during their very
first kiss she's like is this your you know ilia's
like is this your first time and shane says yes
and then you know shane asks me the same thing
and he tells him about sasha and and shane is
like well weren't you like worried or something
like that and he said well we had the same secret
and i don't know like i wonder if that's kind
of like it did alleviate Ilya's worries back
then that he and this kid Sasha who wasn't an
elite athlete right he was just the coach's son
but they had the same secret so Ilya does say
like no I wasn't too too worried because I knew
he would hold my secret and I think in some ways
Ilya no and remember Shane was like don't tell
anyone after they first hooked up and Ilya's
like Fuck am I going to tell, dude? Like we have
the same secret, right? And I think that does
comfort Shane immediately. It like de -escalates
him because he was clearly like panicked immediately
afterwards. And it does kind of like de -escalate
him and say, oh, you're right. We both have the
same secret in the in the same exact environment
where it could cost us our entire career. Yeah,
no. Now that you say that, I actually do agree
that the fact that there's safety in. that secret
because they have that shared secret. That makes
a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Look at us. I revise
my answer. Yeah. We're learning in real time.
We are. That's the whole point. I love it. Yeah.
And I think, I think the thing is like in some
ways it allows them to be like. radically honest
all right so let's talk about the exosystem that's
the next one next nesting doll there we go okay
so can you recap for the newbies in this uh this
framework yeah so the micro is like the you know
the individual and immediate influences the meso
or is the interaction stage and then exosystem
is like indirect influences so these are like
bigger social structures that impact us indirectly.
So, and we talked about some of these things
already, like media influences or media coverage.
policies of the hockey league, definitely expectations
of sponsors. Right. Anusha, you mentioned being
biracial athlete in a predominantly white sport.
And, you know, and and I don't know. I mean,
I know when I was when I was writing the essay,
I wondered if there's like if he experiences
microaggressions being like one of the only Canadian
Asian. athletes in the sport? I don't know. I
mean, I've definitely heard interviews with the
very few Black hockey players that they experience
microaggressions. I would imagine that that happens
to him too. So these are more like indirect.
Also, you know, his relationship with Rose that
we talked about. And how like indirectly he might
be getting this message that, you know, having
a hetero relationship is really like what people
want to see or, you know, what might get him
more sponsorships or whatever. And then we didn't
really talk a lot about his neurodivergence,
but, you know, he's had to figure out how to
navigate that space that is not a space that
is like readily prepared to support. neurodivergence.
Right. But he's figured it out, like for whatever
reason, like that's a way that he's been able
to adapt and figure out how to be successful
in a space where he's different than some of
his his peers. Well, it helps if that his skill
and his spin and his love is the same thing.
You know, hockey. Yeah. But it's not just the
hockey. Like he's getting like he's getting sponsorships.
Right. So like if he was great at hockey. But
he was perceived as, like, so weird. Like, you
know what I mean? Right, right. They still like
him enough. He's got something going. Right,
because the league doesn't, like, accommodate
for that. Like, they're not accommodating for
his—nor do his sponsors, right? They're just
like, here they are. You know, I think that—
There are two narratives that are created for
Shane by the media. And I think that's part of
the like exosystem, right? Like the fact that
A, the media creates the rivalry between Ilya
and Shane, right? Like they did this. Like they
are like, you know, to the outside world, the
media has created like all anyone sees are these
like two elite athletes. And super competitive,
intensely competitive, right? And like the media
turns this story into, you know, a story about
ambition and rivalry. And they're completely
erasing, obviously, anything, which actually
is kind of nice for them in some ways because
it gives them cover. But then later at the cottage,
you kind of see that because of that, it also
is harder for them to even like be seen in public
together as friends, you know? And another one
that I thought was interesting in terms of the
media creating an air. is when he starts dating
Rhodes, right? The media constructs this narrative
that like he's in a relationship with an actress,
the hottest actress in all of Canada. And he's
obviously straight and he's fitting the mold
of a hockey star. The two people who were like
talking, they're like, you know, something about
athletes and actors. They just can't keep their
hands off each other, you know? And Shane is
like kind of glad that he has this like cover
again by the media, but also like it does kill
him inside, you know? And then he just loves
it. It looks out that he picked this girl who's
so great, who turns out to be so great. Yeah,
so the macro system is literally like the big
picture, like culture, society, what are culture
values, right? It's like, where in the world
are you? You know, if you're in Canada, that
may be a safer place to be gay than Russia. Like,
so, you know, so that's a big deal. But not just
like expectations around sexual orientation,
but also around masculinity or race, right? I
don't know, you know, I know what it's like.
Oh, you guys talked, you talked about this in
one of your episodes, like the myth of the model
minority. You know, what does it mean to be Asian?
That myth of the model minority is, you know,
I'm sure it's just as real in Canada as it is
in the U .S., right? So that's all part of the
macro system. So whatever those pressures are
to fit a certain mold, that's part of, you know,
your identity as well. And for a lot of us, that...
pressure to to fit a mold and that's expected
of us is is part of you know what makes us who
we are if we decide to um conform to that mold
or maybe we like it maybe that maybe that is
what we aspire to be um but we but definitely
Shane is uh he has privilege around some of these
things because he's a high level athlete. So
he's probably considered, you know, masculine
and competent and athletic, those kinds of things.
But he's constrained by prevailing views of that
intersection of being a pro athlete and gay or
being Asian and an athlete or whatever that is.
So that's really the macro system. He's Shane
is literally like a walking contradiction of
everything that the macro system expects him
to be, because, you know, hockey is like a predominantly
white sport, predominantly straight, at least
as far as we know. Right. Predominantly hyper
masculine. And Shane is like, you know, he is,
you know, biracial. He's gay and he is neurodivergent,
which doesn't help him with the whole hyper masculinity
piece. You know, so it's it's it he's. The system,
again, is contradicting itself in his world.
And I mean, they don't talk about this in the
show, but I always think like I know he's he's
biracial, but he can pass as white. And so I
also think there's some privilege that comes
with just his phenotype, because like to me,
except that they identified him as Asian, I probably
wouldn't have on my own. They don't really talk
about that in the show. But, you know, I like
for for folks who who can pass, not that like
I don't encourage passing. I want people to to
be who they are. But people who who can pass
as white are also received differently. So he
has a lot of privilege around. He actually does
talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So when he
first meets Rose, I know this show way too well,
you guys. No, no, it's great. When he first meets
Rose, they have this whole conversation. She
does ask him like he told he tells her about
when he was like a young kid and he was doing
some sort of hockey thing. There were two Asian
kids, he said, on that team. And she's like,
that must have been tough for the two of you.
And he said. More for him than for me. And he
talks about that. He passed more than the other
kid because he has a Western last name. And then
she's like, you were probably also very good
at hockey. And he's like, yes, I was also very
good at hockey. So that also helped him. Like
the kids were harder on that other kid, the other
Asian kid than on Shane because he was passing
more. So that's an interesting point that you
bring up because he does mention that. And we're
going to talk about like the chrono system, right?
Because that is how do I change over time, right?
It's... It is how you change over time, but it's
also a function of like, at what point in your
development do things happen? Right. And so,
you know, like I was saying earlier, like if
you, you know, if Ilya lost his mother at 25
rather than like eight or 10 or however old he
was, that's it's a very different developmental
trajectory. When you say 12, you're like, excuse
me, get the details right. Right. But you think
about that, like you guys are, you know, we're
all parents and we all have kids at different
ages. And if you, you know, when something happens
and at a certain age, it's a much, it's just
different. Right. Which is why I brought up how.
young they were when they first start getting
notoriety and money. Like, like if I made a hundred
thousand dollars when I was 18, there would be
signs and they would not be good. Well, Ilya
buys himself a bunch of sports cars. So you can,
so you could see that, like, you know, and that's
why I think about Scott a lot too, is like, I
feel like Scott in terms of like his age, like
he's a lot older than them in the series. And
I think the way he handled. the same situations
or very similar situations are. partly a function
of his age. Like he's getting, he's getting ready
to retire. His career's almost over. He's like,
my fun goal, I'm out. Right. You know, which
might not be what somebody who's 22 is willing
to do when they've got like at least, you know,
eight, 10 years of, of a career ahead of them.
So, you know, as societal attitudes evolve, you
know, our ability to kind of live more authentically
might change. And that, I think that's kind of
what's happening. happening in this series a
little bit. Yeah. I think the fact that they
meet each other so young at 17 and like the frontal
lobe is not nearly finished developing yet. Right.
And they're boys. So it's going to take a little
bit longer. And the fact that they meet, they
imprint upon each other. at such a young age.
And they both do say like, it's the only person
I've loved, right? And I think that also matters
in some ways. Like, you know, think about how
much your needs and wants and desires and types
change the older you get. Like, who is to say
that they would have been together if they had
met each other at 25, you know, and they would
have fallen in love. So I think that's a really
interesting part of the story. A lot of people
forget that they're so young when they meet.
And when you're that young, love is already like
so passionate. There's so much. lust. Like all
you want to do is suck each other's faces, you
know, at that age, you know, which is funny because
like a lot of people are like, why are they always
having sex? I'm like, dude, that's not what you
wanted to do when you were like a teenager and
like you were like in lust. Did you guys forget?
You know, like, so it's interesting of you mentioning
that it also matters what age that something
happens to you is also important. I think that's
something I don't often think about when I think
about the system. I love that you brought up
the chrono system because it's like not just
change over time. And I know identity isn't static.
That's like the theme of this whole. But is there
a point where it's like it becomes inflexible?
I mean, because sometimes you think of identity
as this this core element of you. The Brown -Frenbrenner
theory is like a developmental psychology theory,
right? So when I think of developmental psychology,
I really think of like. children. And certainly
this theory could be applied throughout the life,
but like, where does it, where's your identity
fixed or is it ever fixed? I don't think it is
ever fixed. I think it, I think it's, it's fixed
if you dig in, you know? So, and I also think
that there's a, there's a difference between
like identity and temperament and we have, we
all have temperament. I, this is just my theory
of this. I think temperament is sort of fixed.
I think we could say that even about each other.
Like you can, it's like trying to hold a beach
ball underwater for me to try to be like real
nice. And at some point it just, you know. That
face, that face gives it all away. But identity,
you know, like every developmental, I shouldn't
say every developmental theory, but many developmental
theories recognize this ability to like revisit,
right? So even if you go to like Eric Erickson,
right? And you study, you work with little ones,
so you know, like. So they say from like babies,
babies zero to two are learning to trust, right?
Trust versus mistrust is the conflict. If you
resolve that on the mistrust side, it doesn't
mean you'll never trust. You can always, you
could revisit any of those stages. So, but you
have to be willing to. You have to be willing
to say, I'm having an issue with trust and I'm
going to work on that, right? And so I think.
we have some agency in whether or not it's static.
I feel like I fall into the trap of thinking
identity is this like static thing, which it's
not. It can be fluid in so many ways. And it's
like what the system is describing is that it's
layered and overlapping, that some things persist
throughout. Like, I also think that it like gives
people that sense of empathy to understand. That
people aren't just as they are fully formed when
they arrive on this planet. That, like, we are
born into these systems that shape us and create
who we are from an identity perspective. And
for me, I think I couch a lot of my hope. and
like desire to be a hopeful person and in cynicism
because it feels protective. All the time we're
sitting here like thinking nothing's going to
change, like everything is awful and it's always
going to be the way this is. And I think we get
stuck in these pathways. But this in this system,
you think, OK, there is this potential for humans
to change if they were given like a different
like milieu. Yeah. But to your point, like everything
can change. Like these, you know, what identity
development and research on identity development
tells us is that, A, people are really resilient
and B. there's an immense capacity for change,
you know, positive and negative, but actually
I think more positive. I agree with you, Tap.
Like your identity, I don't think is ever static.
Like you never stop developing who you are as
a person. And I think that's why people say like,
be the best version of yourself. And I think
part of that is neuroplasticity, right? Like
the fact that you can tell your brain to behave
a certain way or to believe in certain things,
and that's gonna... come to fruition. It's so
surprising to hear two and really like hopeful
to hear two educators say identity is never fixed.
I love that, actually, because again, I was like,
is that just like pie in the sky kind of dream?
Like, but it's actually based in these theories.
We are in a developmental stage right now that
is like. Generativity versus stagnation, right?
That's Erickson's stage for us. And so in this
part of our life, it's like, well, what are we
going to do? Are we going to contribute to the
world? Are we going to volunteer? Are we going
to protest? Are we going to, you know, whatever
it is, like contribute in our work life? Or are
we going to become stagnant and just be like,
I'm done cooking, right? Like, so the stagnation
could, that could influence like. literally like
that you get stuck in a certain identity. But
if you resolve these conflicts, these identity
conflicts in an adaptive way, then you will keep
growing and changing. And if you think about
Bronfenbrenner. The systems are going to keep
impacting you. Right. And so as you know, as
the people around you change and things happen
and experiences happen, you will probably respond
to those. And the responses to those also are
going to impact your identity. Like think about
bring it back to Shane. Think about when he is
confronted with. his identity with his hidden
identity of being gay by rose right where she
essentially gives him the space to come out to
himself and then to the first person ever he
and we've talked about this a lot and you know
many people have but like that could have gone
so many different ways even if she gave him the
space for it he could have just like doubled
down and be like nope i'm good like i don't want
to talk about it right or he could that whole
That whole scene could have gone exactly the
way it went. And he could have just been like,
OK, so one person knows my secret safe. That's
it. Right. But what he did with that is actually
start changing his his like his place in the
world. Right. He got a stylist. Right. He said,
I'm going to be my truest self, like not. Too
much publicly because there's still a lot of
risk, but I'm going to get the boy I want because
like I've decided like I cannot live my life
pre this moment. I'm going to live my life post
this moment. He could he could have chosen to
continue doing what he was doing before, but
he got a stylist. He came into that Tampa. bar
to talk to Ilya he came in with one mission like
I'm gonna get this boy right and his confidence
was so clear like it was palpable when they're
talking at the bar like he's like I got a stylist
Rose and I are not compatible and then later
what is your room number right like he is just
like changed not completely but significantly
from the moment where he came out to himself
specifically you know yeah and so that's the
first moment where he actually asked for the
room. Like it was a nice flip of the script.
And it was also the first moment where you saw
Ilya like on. kind of on the back foot of this
relationship yeah and also like tab to your point
they are also older now right so there's definitely
a lot more maturity and a lot more um just confidence
life experience whatever it may be and then you
know he also not only does he like you have this
confidence where he's like pressing on illy like
stop being an asshole i know you feel this too
like let's not play these games anymore like
he drives that which is before like he they know
Never did that. You know, like Ilya kind of drove
that a little bit. But so, yeah, like this one
moment with Rose flipped the script for him and
then ended up with the cottage. And then speaking
of like, you know. how development can keep happening
over time. Like I wonder about Shane's mom, like
Shane's mom has to like her whole identity as
a mom and like who my kid is changes as a, and
his dad too, as a result of now learning about
Shane. So they've got to adapt. So their identity
is going to evolve as a function of learning
something new about their kid. Yeah. Yeah. And
I think if our last episode was about how women
are like facing so much loss in trench foot of
their fundamental identity as a woman is being
like, you know, is like being chipped away. I
think this one is from, I mean, it sounds like
a broken record. This one is one of hope. Like
this is the, it's the future. It gives you this
idea that like you're never done. learning right
but but you're also your brain is also never
done like developing a different perspective
or being capable of of doing more or or being
more empathetic or understanding another one's
perspective as long as you are given the milieu
that allows that, right? And that's what in so
many ways, like representation matters, like
all of that matters. These external things, they
matter in how you view yourself. And that only
that can drive the change. If you're constantly
exposed to the same thing over and over, like
you're not going to change. So either the world
has to change around you or you have to seek
it out. And you all talked about you talked about
this like a couple like way episodes ago about
that the way in which this show has flipped the
script on like expectations. And I think that
another. important aspect of the show is that
it's normalized adaptive coping, right? Because
maladaptive coping is really sexy and lots of
people watch it because we're so used to watching
people crash and burn and make bad decisions
and relationships fall apart. And right. So you,
you know, I loved your episode when you talked
about this, but this. This series has normalized
adaptive coping. It has shown us like a possibility
that's still sexy and fun to watch and engaging.
But it's like, here's what's possible when we
support one another. I, you know, Tab, I love
this framework, as do you. And for me, because
it's like, you know. what it does is it does
for shane anyway like it takes his story or all
the you know characters in the story and it makes
it feel like very deeply personal and very deeply
universal right like you yes you have these fictional
characters shane for example you know biracial
gay you know autistic elite hockey player right
and but like the architecture of how he became
who he is, you know, the family, the culture,
the institutions, the passage of time. That's
all of our stories. That's everybody's stories,
right? So like, I love that we are, we're all
being shaped by these systems. And it's interesting
to me to take someone like Shane or Ilya, you
know, which we'll do and like put them in there
to see how universal it really is. Well, thank
you. Well, thank you so much for coming and talking
about this and for writing the article. We will
link it. And really appreciate you joining us
today, Dr. Tabb. The pleasure is all ours. Wow.
That was really fascinating stuff. First of all,
I'm really glad that I read up a little bit on
this ecological theory before because it's just
really fascinating to listen to Dr. Tabb. I don't
know why I keep calling her Dr. Tabb. I'm right.
Like, I don't think I've ever done that in any
real setting. Never actually called her that.
But it just rolls off the tongue. Okay. It really
does. It really does. And it really was a really
fascinating conversation. As you know, I love
this framework. And I cannot wait to do this
for Ilya next week. Oh, so we are doing this
again next week. I love it. We are doing this
again. Yeah. But from a different sort of point
of view, I think. I think Tab has a little bit
of a different framework, but I'm excited for
that one for Ilya. Okay. So let's talk about
our sunshine for this week. So in honor of Bronfenbrenner,
I strengthened. All my bonds across my microsystem
this weekend. So many groups, so many groups
of friends, family, my parents, you know, my
kids, my husband. It was my birthday. So I got
to see all sorts of people. It was just a really
beautiful weekend of love. Well, listen, I know
I've said happy birthday to you a million times
already, but once again. Happy birthday. Oh,
well, I never get tired of hearing that. No,
you don't. Well, you know what? I'm just going
to share. I'm going to steal your birthday, Sunshine.
And only because we were celebrating together
this weekend. And we have spent the last two
weekends celebrating our friend's 50th birthdays.
And so our microsystems are definitely strengthening
all throughout the weeks. And last weekend we
were. at a 70s disco party. This weekend, we
were at a 1920s speakeasy party. So we're just
hopping through the decades and we're having
a great time, you know, and in heated rivalry,
we're like in the early to mid 2000s. So let's
go. So here's to time travel, I guess. Yeah,
we're just, our moment of sunshine is time travel.
Yeah, there you go. I love it. Next week on Everyone
Deserves Sunshine, we're talking about Ilya's
identity. Subscribe now. wherever you get your
podcasts. And if you want to say hi to the girls
in the crease, find us on Instagram, Facebook,
and thread at everyone deserves sunshine or email
us at everyone deserves sunshine at gmail .com.
New episodes drop on Mondays. See you then.