WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.279 Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana. 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:04.740 And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease. 00:00:05.019 --> 00:00:07.719 Did you miss us? I missed us. I missed you, Anusha. 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:10.519 I haven't talked to you in, well, since a couple 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:13.699 days ago. Yeah, I missed you, too. I missed our 00:00:13.699 --> 00:00:16.199 podcasting. I did. I have to say that. Yeah, 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:18.260 it was nice. All right, well, we're ready to 00:00:18.260 --> 00:00:20.940 go, and we are back. This is a very, very full 00:00:20.940 --> 00:00:24.039 episode, and I hope this is something that'll 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:26.420 be super interesting to our listeners, because 00:00:26.420 --> 00:00:30.140 it sure was for us. This is episode 11, and today 00:00:30.140 --> 00:00:32.740 we're talking about identity. Joining us today 00:00:32.740 --> 00:00:35.979 is Dr. Tabitha D 'Angelo, a professor of education 00:00:35.979 --> 00:00:38.740 with a focus on developmental psychology and 00:00:38.740 --> 00:00:41.600 the author of Why Heated Viability Captivates 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:43.920 and What It Teaches Us About Identity. We're 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:46.579 talking about Shane Hollander. So I'm in the 00:00:46.579 --> 00:00:49.939 esteemed company of two educators, this time 00:00:49.939 --> 00:00:51.820 two teachers. Is that what's happening to me? 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:57.149 Great, great. So I... then have an idea for how 00:00:57.149 --> 00:01:00.670 to frame today's episode because we need a lesson 00:01:00.670 --> 00:01:03.270 plan. What is the fundamental question we are 00:01:03.270 --> 00:01:07.129 answering? I think the question that I'd really 00:01:07.129 --> 00:01:11.129 like Dr. Tab to answer through the lens of heated 00:01:11.129 --> 00:01:13.829 rivalry and Shane Hollander, because that's what 00:01:13.829 --> 00:01:19.010 we do here, is not how we become who we are. 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:22.819 but how we become why we are the way we are. 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:25.439 I like that. Look at you. You did your homework. 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:27.900 I wanted to go back to our original question 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:30.819 that we ask everyone because I want to know because 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:33.680 I don't know. How did you get into the show, 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:37.159 Dr. Delangelo? The origin story. So this is really, 00:01:37.260 --> 00:01:39.379 I was hoping you would ask me the origin story. 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:45.280 So I was listening to The Daily. And so I listen 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:48.060 to The Daily when I get ready every... Every 00:01:48.060 --> 00:01:49.680 morning, except for Monday mornings, I listen 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:51.780 to your show. And truthfully, they were saying 00:01:51.780 --> 00:01:54.680 they didn't really like TV in 2025. There wasn't 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:57.680 much that they liked. But they liked heated rivalry. 00:01:57.900 --> 00:02:01.200 And I hadn't watched it. And I love TV. And I 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.040 was like, how have I missed this? So they talked 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:05.939 about what it was and that it was about hockey. 00:02:07.260 --> 00:02:09.919 all the things. And it sounded really good, but 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:11.840 I hadn't watched it yet. And then it's like the 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:14.020 holidays and I'm super busy or whatever. And 00:02:14.020 --> 00:02:16.780 then we all went out to dinner and you two got 00:02:16.780 --> 00:02:20.580 into it about Heat at Rivalry and the themes 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:22.860 and the this and the that. And I was really excited 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:25.900 because I already had heard about it and thought 00:02:25.900 --> 00:02:29.360 I need to put this on my list. And then after 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.199 hearing you all talk about it and how excited 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:34.319 you were about it, I thought, okay, now I... 00:02:34.909 --> 00:02:38.090 Now I have to watch it. And so that was my story. 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:40.389 I'd like to kind of take it a step further and 00:02:40.389 --> 00:02:45.310 ask, like, what made you write this piece? This 00:02:45.310 --> 00:02:49.550 piece set, which says why heated rivalry captivates 00:02:49.550 --> 00:02:51.689 and what it teaches us about identity. This is 00:02:51.689 --> 00:02:55.409 just the way I think all the time. So ever since 00:02:55.409 --> 00:02:58.960 I learned about. Bronfenbrenner in particular, 00:02:59.139 --> 00:03:01.099 so this is the ecological systems theory that 00:03:01.099 --> 00:03:03.319 we're going to be talking about today, that was 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:06.400 such a big part of my graduate school. It was 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:12.000 like all we did. That everything I watch, I apply 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.520 these theories to. It's become just the way I've 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:19.259 learned to understand the world. And so it's 00:03:19.259 --> 00:03:22.539 just what I do. It's just how I think. And so 00:03:22.539 --> 00:03:26.800 many of my friends are really interested in... 00:03:27.210 --> 00:03:30.169 heated rivalry and my students, right? So my 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:32.650 students are also talking about it that I thought, 00:03:32.689 --> 00:03:36.590 oh, this is a cool way to get my students to 00:03:36.590 --> 00:03:40.330 learn this theoretical framework because they're 00:03:40.330 --> 00:03:43.330 thinking about characters that they are interested 00:03:43.330 --> 00:03:46.210 in. And so it was just like another way, like 00:03:46.210 --> 00:03:49.629 really a teaching method to be like, okay, here's 00:03:49.629 --> 00:03:53.229 a way for you to learn about this complex theoretical 00:03:53.229 --> 00:03:55.289 framework because we're going to be applying 00:03:55.289 --> 00:03:58.780 it to. characters who you love. Walk us through 00:03:58.780 --> 00:04:01.639 this. What did you say? The ecological systems 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:04.939 theory, right? So if you think about just like 00:04:04.939 --> 00:04:07.500 ecology, just in general, right? If you think 00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:11.300 about your garden and you planted a tree and 00:04:11.300 --> 00:04:15.039 one side of the tree gets a lot of sun and maybe 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.740 the flowers bloom more quickly and the other 00:04:17.740 --> 00:04:20.759 side of the tree is shadier and maybe it doesn't 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:24.319 get as many leaves or flowers or whatever. That's 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.639 the ecological system like in the natural world. 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:30.660 And so this theory, it's Uri Braun from Brenner. 00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:33.420 So basically what he said was we can apply a 00:04:33.420 --> 00:04:36.680 systems theory to figure out the why of people, 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:41.279 right? And how everything is influencing each 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:43.399 person's development. So when you see this theory, 00:04:43.459 --> 00:04:45.680 like if you Googled it and you did an image search, 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:47.720 you would see something that looks like a target. 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.100 And in the center is the individual, is the person. 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:54.000 And then there are these circles that go out 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.959 just like a target that literally mimic the. 00:04:57.420 --> 00:05:01.139 influences like in proximity. So the immediate 00:05:01.139 --> 00:05:05.319 system is the microsystem includes the individual, 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:07.300 but it's like your family, your school, like 00:05:07.300 --> 00:05:10.160 the systems that you interact with every day. 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.139 And then it goes further out to even things like 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:17.160 local government and media and sociopolitical 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:20.899 context. And so it's really complex, but it's 00:05:20.899 --> 00:05:23.740 also really simple in a way because it's just 00:05:23.740 --> 00:05:29.199 acknowledging that. your identity is really influenced 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:34.019 by so many factors and that it's fluid. And so 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:35.740 there's another part of it that's called the 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:39.100 chronosystem, which is basically over time. So 00:05:39.100 --> 00:05:42.339 if we think about like a person's development, 00:05:42.459 --> 00:05:44.160 I know we're talking about Shane today, but like 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.660 Ilya, like how old was he when his mom died? 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.980 Like if you lose a parent at five, that's different 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:53.500 than losing a parent at 15 or 25 or 50, right? 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:56.560 And so the chronosystem also has an influence 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.000 on your development. You know how I always thought 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.579 about them? Like I always look at the system 00:06:01.579 --> 00:06:03.910 and I see them as like a... Target too. But in 00:06:03.910 --> 00:06:06.170 my mind, I always also think about them as nesting 00:06:06.170 --> 00:06:07.790 dolls because I'm like, Russian nesting dolls. 00:06:07.870 --> 00:06:09.410 You know, you have like the little micro and 00:06:09.410 --> 00:06:11.629 then it gets bigger and bigger. So I like the 00:06:11.629 --> 00:06:13.509 way, I like thinking about it in that way too. 00:06:13.610 --> 00:06:16.250 Makes it more fun for me anyway. But it also 00:06:16.250 --> 00:06:18.370 makes sense, right? Because if you had the nesting 00:06:18.370 --> 00:06:22.110 dolls, if they're all nested, if you shake the 00:06:22.110 --> 00:06:26.750 big one, it impacts every level, right? And so 00:06:26.750 --> 00:06:30.980 it does, it works. It works. So then let's talk 00:06:30.980 --> 00:06:33.939 about the let's talk about Shane as the individual 00:06:33.939 --> 00:06:37.160 in the first system, which is the microsystem. 00:06:37.180 --> 00:06:40.180 And that microsystem basically says. who am I, 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.420 right? Who is with me? Like, who are my direct 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:46.079 influences? And, you know, Shane carries a lot 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.740 of different identities, and none of these identities 00:06:48.740 --> 00:06:52.000 exist in isolation. Like, you can't really understand 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:54.420 one without the other with him, and you can't 00:06:54.420 --> 00:06:56.519 understand any of them without understanding 00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:59.240 the world that he exists within. So, Dr. Tapp, 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:01.240 do you want to talk about the microsystem and 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.420 all of Shane's, you know, closest relationships 00:07:03.420 --> 00:07:06.279 within that microsystem? So that's the teeny's 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:09.100 tiniest closest system to Shane. It's the yeah, 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:11.339 it's the closest system. But, you know, and that 00:07:11.339 --> 00:07:13.279 could change, too, over time. Right. So like 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:15.480 if you were a kid, we might be thinking about 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.199 school. But at Shane's age and the age that that 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:23.199 we know him, we're thinking about work and his 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:26.360 work is his hockey team. He's Japanese Canadian. 00:07:26.660 --> 00:07:30.290 I think his is his mom. Japanese Canadian and 00:07:30.290 --> 00:07:33.810 his dad's white Canadian. So he has these intersectional 00:07:33.810 --> 00:07:37.930 racial identities. He's got probably, I'm guessing, 00:07:38.009 --> 00:07:40.930 like the pressures of an Asian kid, an immigrant 00:07:40.930 --> 00:07:44.610 family. Then he's got his teammates, his coaches, 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:48.009 like all of that is going to impact on him. Also 00:07:48.009 --> 00:07:51.939 his... I think his autism is something to consider 00:07:51.939 --> 00:07:54.759 in his microsystem because it's going to impact 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.339 the way he approaches the world. So all of that 00:07:58.339 --> 00:08:03.660 is impacting his immediate system. And what you 00:08:03.660 --> 00:08:05.459 see in the beginning, which is interesting, like 00:08:05.459 --> 00:08:07.839 even in terms of the relationship with the chronosystem, 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:10.079 and I missed this first time around, you and 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:12.579 I, like we got into this a little bit. I didn't 00:08:12.579 --> 00:08:16.319 realize the first time I saw the series, the 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:20.250 span of time. that that was covered. Like, even 00:08:20.250 --> 00:08:22.509 though I watched it all, I sort of in my mind, 00:08:22.529 --> 00:08:24.569 my schema was like, this was two years. But, 00:08:24.629 --> 00:08:27.730 you know, it was so many years. And I think that 00:08:27.730 --> 00:08:32.649 his age is also an important variable to consider, 00:08:32.750 --> 00:08:37.049 because when you become notable and maybe even 00:08:37.049 --> 00:08:40.250 have a lot of money or whatever at 18 or 19, 00:08:40.389 --> 00:08:45.240 like that's. amazing, but also like, you know, 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:49.019 that's a lot to handle for like a kid. And basically 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:52.940 he's still a kid. And so I think all of that 00:08:52.940 --> 00:08:57.220 in his microsystem is, you know, like his world 00:08:57.220 --> 00:08:59.700 of like family and friends and his parents seem 00:08:59.700 --> 00:09:03.580 super supportive, but his dad's a former hockey 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:05.720 player. So we know what he wants. We see his 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.440 mom being very ambitious about his sponsorships 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:12.490 and things like that. And then his friends. his 00:09:12.490 --> 00:09:14.549 teammates, like, are they tight? Like he does 00:09:14.549 --> 00:09:16.610 have that one friend. I forget his name, the 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:19.610 one with the kids. Yeah. That seems to be like 00:09:19.610 --> 00:09:24.549 his closest friend relationship. But, but mostly, 00:09:24.629 --> 00:09:27.230 and maybe because of his neurodivergence, he's 00:09:27.230 --> 00:09:30.429 a little bit of a lone wolf, right? So in, so 00:09:30.429 --> 00:09:33.549 in terms of like support systems, I don't see 00:09:33.549 --> 00:09:35.830 a lot. I don't know that he needs a lot, but 00:09:35.830 --> 00:09:38.710 in his microsystem, his closest relationships 00:09:38.710 --> 00:09:42.070 are. Probably his family is like the best he's 00:09:42.070 --> 00:09:46.549 got. And Ilya. Well, and Ilya is eventually. 00:09:47.470 --> 00:09:50.789 Sure. Yeah, yeah. But not initially, right? And 00:09:50.789 --> 00:09:54.269 then the other thing with Ilya is it's a secret, 00:09:54.370 --> 00:09:59.210 right? So it's, you know, when he texts, they 00:09:59.210 --> 00:10:01.909 have to use pseudonyms. They don't live near 00:10:01.909 --> 00:10:05.759 one another. They're not always accessible to 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.279 one another. So, you know, so that could be, 00:10:08.299 --> 00:10:11.799 yeah, that's definitely part of his microsystem, 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:15.960 but maybe a little like maybe not the most supportive 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:18.840 source, at least initially. It's funny to me 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.759 because I think I mentioned this to you and you 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.240 should the other day that like we in the show, 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:27.059 you know, obviously Shane has had many influences 00:10:27.059 --> 00:10:30.259 prior to the show, right? Like he's 17 when we 00:10:30.259 --> 00:10:33.809 first meet him. But in the show. We never see 00:10:33.809 --> 00:10:37.610 him without knowing Ilya. Like the first time 00:10:37.610 --> 00:10:40.330 we ever see both of them on screen, they meet 00:10:40.330 --> 00:10:43.009 each other. So we have no idea what he's like. 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:46.700 without Ilya in his life in some way, shape or 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:48.799 form, whether it's secret or, you know, eventually 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:51.159 not. So I think that's really interesting. And 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.779 I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, Braun 00:10:54.779 --> 00:10:57.299 for Brenner also says that, like, it's not just 00:10:57.299 --> 00:10:59.500 about like the people you're interacting with 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:02.000 in your microsystem or the events that are taking 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.039 place within those interactions, but it's also 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:07.480 the response to those events that also shape. 00:11:08.059 --> 00:11:10.659 why you are and who you are right and shape your 00:11:10.659 --> 00:11:13.500 identity and I I think a lot about specifically 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:15.679 when I think about the micro system for Shane 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.440 I think about the coming out scene between him 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.340 and his mom right and I always think that the 00:11:21.340 --> 00:11:24.440 the way you know when he comes to her and he 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.340 says to her like I'm sorry he's apologizing for 00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:30.740 something he thinks she needs to hear from him 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:33.440 right but the way she responds to him by saying 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.090 like you have nothing to be sorry for I'm sorry. 00:11:37.230 --> 00:11:39.570 I'm sorry. I made you feel like you couldn't 00:11:39.570 --> 00:11:41.970 come to me. Like, I think that interaction, right? 00:11:42.029 --> 00:11:44.649 Because again, like the response to that event, 00:11:44.690 --> 00:11:47.129 it shapes the development. I think that interaction 00:11:47.129 --> 00:11:50.169 really what becomes like the foundation that 00:11:50.169 --> 00:11:53.500 Shane then builds his like future self on. Oh, 00:11:53.539 --> 00:11:56.120 yeah, absolutely. I mean, so much of identity 00:11:56.120 --> 00:12:00.559 is collusion, is like the way in which we respond 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.340 to one another. And so that coming out scene 00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:05.940 is really interesting because, like you said, 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:09.120 Shane sort of did this buffer. I'm sorry. Like 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.440 he's not, you know, he's not totally sure how 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:13.840 his mom's going to react. And his mom could have 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.820 done a million things. She could have said, how 00:12:16.820 --> 00:12:19.860 have you never told me this before? Why didn't 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:23.720 you trust me? Like she could have. said yes I'm 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.419 I'm cool with this of course I love you but also 00:12:26.419 --> 00:12:28.340 made him feel guilty like she could have done 00:12:28.340 --> 00:12:30.980 a million things but what she did you're right 00:12:30.980 --> 00:12:34.379 gives him the strength to be like I she's got 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:38.039 my back I'm gonna be okay and so then his emergent 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:41.419 identity as like potentially like a proud gay 00:12:41.419 --> 00:12:45.440 man is so much more possible because of that 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:49.340 um so yeah yeah that's a great point to me that 00:12:49.340 --> 00:12:53.529 scene Like, is the bookend a scene that happens 00:12:53.529 --> 00:12:57.470 in the first episode where, you know, Yuna is 00:12:57.470 --> 00:13:01.610 telling him, remember, kids who look like you 00:13:01.610 --> 00:13:05.809 don't often see themselves where you are. You 00:13:05.809 --> 00:13:08.129 know, she's likely talking about the fact that 00:13:08.129 --> 00:13:13.490 he's Japanese -Canadian. And that's clearly such 00:13:13.490 --> 00:13:18.370 a core. The way he responds to her, it sounds 00:13:18.370 --> 00:13:21.169 like a conversation they've had a lot of times. 00:13:21.230 --> 00:13:24.350 You know, the way he's like, yeah, mom, I know, 00:13:24.490 --> 00:13:27.269 you know, he's heard this before. And he's like 00:13:27.269 --> 00:13:32.049 really made that something that is like a core 00:13:32.049 --> 00:13:36.090 feature to him. Which is a lot of pressure. Yeah. 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:39.309 A lot of pressure. Right. But what does that 00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:43.980 mean? What he interprets that is like. being 00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:46.639 the hockey player he's supposed to be yeah supposed 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:49.539 to be the hockey player that doesn't make waves 00:13:49.539 --> 00:13:52.820 you know that is like the perfect poster child 00:13:52.820 --> 00:13:57.000 essentially that's how he interprets it and it's 00:13:57.000 --> 00:13:59.379 a lot I mean a lot of I think a lot of people 00:13:59.379 --> 00:14:02.580 of color in particular deal with this because 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:08.019 they They carry the burden of reinforcing stereotypes 00:14:08.019 --> 00:14:11.740 of like their whole group because that's how 00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:16.200 our culture, you know, operates. And and so that 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:19.740 is a lot of pressure for him to think, OK, I'm 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:23.120 the Asian guy. If I step out of line, then like 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:27.080 what if like all Asians get. painted with this 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.960 brush or you know or Asian kids don't see themselves 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.580 as wanting to do that like it is it is a lot 00:14:33.580 --> 00:14:36.720 of pressure to be burdened with the idea that 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:40.620 like you alone are gonna are the the torchbearer 00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:43.399 for your for your group what you guys are talking 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:45.899 about is really kind of in the mezzo system so 00:14:45.899 --> 00:14:49.350 the mezzo system is this like messy middle where 00:14:49.350 --> 00:14:54.289 the microsystem, the exosystem interact, right? 00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:58.870 And so this is this area where it's the connections 00:14:58.870 --> 00:15:02.639 between the levels, right? So like how... does 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.779 the family and hockey interact like how does 00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.840 his private life and his work life and his public 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.120 persona how do they sort of collide with one 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:14.360 another and support one another sometimes not 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.059 support one another um i think it was like that 00:15:17.059 --> 00:15:21.399 with rose right so like the the everybody in 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:25.080 the in the public eye was like yay you know and 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.919 they're like i could imagine him being like oh 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:32.019 This is what people want. And I want to please 00:15:32.019 --> 00:15:34.940 people. So, you know, like that's a lot of pressure. 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:39.220 Tab. Yeah. Part of your evaluation or analysis 00:15:39.220 --> 00:15:42.039 about Shane and the mesosystem, and yes, we're 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:43.899 still at the mesosystem, was, and I think this 00:15:43.899 --> 00:15:46.419 is like really important, the difference between 00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:49.139 his or the interactions or the conflict between 00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:51.720 his private world and his public world. And I 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.279 think that is part of the mesosystem that I'm 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:57.059 almost most interested in, especially when it 00:15:57.059 --> 00:15:59.120 comes to Shane's character, because he's so, 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.879 different in public and in private. I mean, I 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:05.360 just think that it is that's a that's a lot of 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:09.139 emotional labor to carry when when your public 00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:13.000 and private life is very different. And, you 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:15.399 know, we see it, you know, obviously he's like 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.080 really in the public eye, but it's like that 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:20.220 for lots of people, you know, who might have 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:23.940 very serious. you know, home life happening, 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:26.259 but like, you got to go to work and do your job, 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:29.240 you know, or go to school or whatever it is. 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:31.419 And, and I think that that's what we see with 00:16:31.419 --> 00:16:34.139 him is that, you know, he's got to carry, he's 00:16:34.139 --> 00:16:36.679 carrying this, but then he still has to get out 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.440 on the ice and perform. And he still has to show 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:43.379 up and do commercials and smile and be the person 00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:46.820 who, you know, makes a full articulate sentence 00:16:46.820 --> 00:16:49.039 in an interview. And, you know, that's, it's 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.230 a lot to carry. And I think that. over time, 00:16:52.330 --> 00:16:54.610 if you're not able to integrate those things, 00:16:54.769 --> 00:16:58.070 it it could result in like, you know, poor health 00:16:58.070 --> 00:17:01.269 outcomes. Luckily, we didn't see him have to 00:17:01.269 --> 00:17:05.009 carry this for for too long. And he you know, 00:17:05.009 --> 00:17:08.230 but 10 years, though, that's 10 years. Yeah. 00:17:08.329 --> 00:17:10.470 No, it's like your formative formative years 00:17:10.470 --> 00:17:14.170 to like 17 to. Yeah. Yeah. And think about like 00:17:14.170 --> 00:17:18.940 how many how many people. never like live their 00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:21.279 whole life in the closet. They don't come out. 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:24.359 Right. Or they they, you know, I mean, being 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:26.500 a professional athlete is a good example of a 00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:29.880 job where you're unlikely to come out. You know, 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.240 if he had a different kind of job, maybe, you 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.180 know, maybe he wouldn't have been in the closet. 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:39.220 You know, we don't know. And that but that also 00:17:39.220 --> 00:17:43.119 relates to. Again, the chrono system, because 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:48.319 we happen to, this is set at a time when there's 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.920 a little bit more acceptance of LGBTQ people 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.240 in Canada, not necessarily in that sport, but 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.680 in Canada. But on the other hand, like these 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:01.759 indirect influences, like, which is really the 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:06.059 exosystem of like media coverage and, you know, 00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:08.839 even his relationship with Rose, like the fact 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:12.440 that he's. Everybody sees everything he does. 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.119 That tension between public and private life 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:19.759 is, I wouldn't want to carry that. Yeah. And 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:22.460 you could see how much it like kills them both, 00:18:22.579 --> 00:18:26.160 you know, like often enough. Shane's micro expressions, 00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:29.799 right? Like you can see the difficulty. Like 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.559 if you remember that part where he's watching 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.460 Ilya win the cup. And he's with all of his friends. 00:18:36.539 --> 00:18:38.619 He's with his microsystem. And he's supposed 00:18:38.619 --> 00:18:42.640 to act a certain way, right? And he's supposed 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.519 to act like he hates Ilya. You hate him the most, 00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:47.420 right, Shane, right? And he's like, yeah, of 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:49.980 course, I hate him the most. And then when all 00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:51.660 of his friends kind of like move on, drinking 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:53.720 and whatever they're doing, you could see in 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:57.000 his eyes, like he's so proud. And at the same 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.880 time, so sad that like he can't be there on the 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.900 ice for Ilya to celebrate with him. And the way 00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:07.799 it goes, the biggest moment where, as you know, 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.759 that's partly why Scott. Hunter came out so publicly 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:13.660 because he was alone. No one else was there on 00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:15.440 the ice for him. And then he's like, all right, 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.779 this is like this is my moment. Right. And you 00:19:17.779 --> 00:19:21.519 see the same thing when Shane is in episode four 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:23.539 in that montage in the beginning when they're 00:19:23.539 --> 00:19:25.299 like back and forth. They're on the ice. They're 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:27.039 in the private. They're they're on the ice again. 00:19:27.099 --> 00:19:30.339 They're in the private. Shane is doing the commercial. 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.839 Right. And he's texting Ilya and the the producer 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:35.480 of the commercial is like, hey, Shane, like. 00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:37.740 come back like we need you in your public life 00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.079 right now you know right and then and then he's 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.339 winning the second cup and he's texting ilia 00:19:42.339 --> 00:19:44.859 while everyone is celebrating around him right 00:19:44.859 --> 00:19:46.759 and it's just like you could see that and then 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:49.299 you see a lot of sadness right like when when 00:19:49.299 --> 00:19:51.920 when when he's finally confronted with it like 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.859 you could see all of the the the crisis that 00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:59.059 the meso system like has created for him i just 00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:01.480 i do like the idea of this public versus private 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.700 life which again like you said tab like we all 00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:06.380 have obviously but to see it so displayed in 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:08.640 the show was really like really cool you know 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.700 the way you guys talked about Ilya and Shane 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:14.380 and especially what you said Diana about like 00:20:14.380 --> 00:20:18.240 there's this like sadness that's kind of pulling 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.980 at them because they can't be public I'm curious 00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:24.539 though Ilya and Shane are essentially in the 00:20:24.539 --> 00:20:30.279 same sport the same age the same level of intensity 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.869 and success and both in the closet like They're 00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:37.009 foils for each other in many ways, but their 00:20:37.009 --> 00:20:41.849 circumstances from 17 on in many ways are like 00:20:41.849 --> 00:20:44.490 a Venn diagram that overlaps completely. But 00:20:44.490 --> 00:20:48.109 it's really interesting to me to understand if 00:20:48.109 --> 00:20:52.089 you two as like experts in these sort of theoretical 00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:54.589 developmental psychology systems, like is that 00:20:54.589 --> 00:20:59.109 protective for the other? Like, is that the fact 00:20:59.109 --> 00:21:01.410 that they are literally kind of like the same? 00:21:01.589 --> 00:21:03.470 Is that what you're asking? Yeah, right. Right. 00:21:03.549 --> 00:21:05.630 Because in so many ways, I see what you're saying. 00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:08.569 Like there is there's a fundamental story is 00:21:08.569 --> 00:21:12.730 one of loss of of honesty and being true to your 00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:16.460 identity. But what about the two of them? In 00:21:16.460 --> 00:21:19.539 that, like as a diet, probably so unfair for 00:21:19.539 --> 00:21:21.640 me to just ask you this like question. What do 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.099 you think, Tab? It's not unfair, but I just don't, 00:21:25.099 --> 00:21:27.880 I don't think that the fact that they're both 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.740 in a difficult position, that they both have 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:33.779 a similar stress is necessarily protective. I 00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:36.660 think Ilya has some, he's got some protective 00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:39.740 factors that Shane doesn't have, but Ilya doesn't 00:21:39.740 --> 00:21:42.859 necessarily have the family protective factors, 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:45.380 but I don't necessarily. I don't necessarily 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:47.720 think that just the fact that they're kind of 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:50.859 in the same boat is protective. Well, I don't 00:21:50.859 --> 00:21:54.339 know, Tab. I'm thinking maybe. You can disagree. 00:21:54.500 --> 00:21:57.619 You can disagree. I love it. I don't know if 00:21:57.619 --> 00:22:00.599 I'm, I don't know if I'm disagreeing. I don't, 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:02.619 I don't, I'm not necessarily disagreeing because 00:22:02.619 --> 00:22:06.539 I do see your point, but I do wonder, and this 00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:08.480 is not like one of those like misery loves company 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.859 type of situations, but I do wonder at them having 00:22:11.859 --> 00:22:16.640 the same secret. uh that they both know not only 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.240 that it's the same secret but it's the same secret 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.839 for the same reasons right like so i wonder if 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.529 it's that is a little bit like emotionally protective 00:22:26.529 --> 00:22:29.289 right like you know remember like in the very 00:22:29.289 --> 00:22:31.490 beginning when shane asks ilia during their very 00:22:31.490 --> 00:22:34.289 first kiss she's like is this your you know ilia's 00:22:34.289 --> 00:22:35.769 like is this your first time and shane says yes 00:22:35.769 --> 00:22:38.049 and then you know shane asks me the same thing 00:22:38.049 --> 00:22:40.829 and he tells him about sasha and and shane is 00:22:40.829 --> 00:22:42.529 like well weren't you like worried or something 00:22:42.529 --> 00:22:44.789 like that and he said well we had the same secret 00:22:44.789 --> 00:22:47.289 and i don't know like i wonder if that's kind 00:22:47.289 --> 00:22:51.130 of like it did alleviate Ilya's worries back 00:22:51.130 --> 00:22:55.210 then that he and this kid Sasha who wasn't an 00:22:55.210 --> 00:22:57.109 elite athlete right he was just the coach's son 00:22:57.109 --> 00:22:59.970 but they had the same secret so Ilya does say 00:22:59.970 --> 00:23:02.390 like no I wasn't too too worried because I knew 00:23:02.390 --> 00:23:05.130 he would hold my secret and I think in some ways 00:23:05.130 --> 00:23:08.990 Ilya no and remember Shane was like don't tell 00:23:08.990 --> 00:23:10.710 anyone after they first hooked up and Ilya's 00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:12.839 like Fuck am I going to tell, dude? Like we have 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.180 the same secret, right? And I think that does 00:23:16.180 --> 00:23:19.539 comfort Shane immediately. It like de -escalates 00:23:19.539 --> 00:23:21.140 him because he was clearly like panicked immediately 00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:23.960 afterwards. And it does kind of like de -escalate 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:26.140 him and say, oh, you're right. We both have the 00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:28.599 same secret in the in the same exact environment 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:33.160 where it could cost us our entire career. Yeah, 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:35.480 no. Now that you say that, I actually do agree 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:40.000 that the fact that there's safety in. that secret 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:43.200 because they have that shared secret. That makes 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.160 a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Look at us. I revise 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:52.039 my answer. Yeah. We're learning in real time. 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.779 We are. That's the whole point. I love it. Yeah. 00:23:54.859 --> 00:23:59.000 And I think, I think the thing is like in some 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.619 ways it allows them to be like. radically honest 00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:08.039 all right so let's talk about the exosystem that's 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.980 the next one next nesting doll there we go okay 00:24:11.980 --> 00:24:16.339 so can you recap for the newbies in this uh this 00:24:16.339 --> 00:24:19.019 framework yeah so the micro is like the you know 00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:21.960 the individual and immediate influences the meso 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.420 or is the interaction stage and then exosystem 00:24:25.420 --> 00:24:29.539 is like indirect influences so these are like 00:24:29.950 --> 00:24:33.990 bigger social structures that impact us indirectly. 00:24:34.349 --> 00:24:36.569 So, and we talked about some of these things 00:24:36.569 --> 00:24:41.109 already, like media influences or media coverage. 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:45.319 policies of the hockey league, definitely expectations 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.759 of sponsors. Right. Anusha, you mentioned being 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.240 biracial athlete in a predominantly white sport. 00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:56.140 And, you know, and and I don't know. I mean, 00:24:56.200 --> 00:24:58.599 I know when I was when I was writing the essay, 00:24:58.779 --> 00:25:01.880 I wondered if there's like if he experiences 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:05.980 microaggressions being like one of the only Canadian 00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:09.390 Asian. athletes in the sport? I don't know. I 00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:12.430 mean, I've definitely heard interviews with the 00:25:12.430 --> 00:25:16.869 very few Black hockey players that they experience 00:25:16.869 --> 00:25:20.109 microaggressions. I would imagine that that happens 00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:22.589 to him too. So these are more like indirect. 00:25:22.730 --> 00:25:26.009 Also, you know, his relationship with Rose that 00:25:26.009 --> 00:25:29.039 we talked about. And how like indirectly he might 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.140 be getting this message that, you know, having 00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:35.240 a hetero relationship is really like what people 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:37.539 want to see or, you know, what might get him 00:25:37.539 --> 00:25:40.680 more sponsorships or whatever. And then we didn't 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:42.660 really talk a lot about his neurodivergence, 00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:46.500 but, you know, he's had to figure out how to 00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:50.880 navigate that space that is not a space that 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:56.700 is like readily prepared to support. neurodivergence. 00:25:56.859 --> 00:25:59.099 Right. But he's figured it out, like for whatever 00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:01.500 reason, like that's a way that he's been able 00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:03.759 to adapt and figure out how to be successful 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:08.160 in a space where he's different than some of 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.220 his his peers. Well, it helps if that his skill 00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:15.039 and his spin and his love is the same thing. 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.119 You know, hockey. Yeah. But it's not just the 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:21.339 hockey. Like he's getting like he's getting sponsorships. 00:26:21.339 --> 00:26:24.619 Right. So like if he was great at hockey. But 00:26:24.619 --> 00:26:28.220 he was perceived as, like, so weird. Like, you 00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:30.920 know what I mean? Right, right. They still like 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:33.720 him enough. He's got something going. Right, 00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:35.039 because the league doesn't, like, accommodate 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.140 for that. Like, they're not accommodating for 00:26:37.140 --> 00:26:39.740 his—nor do his sponsors, right? They're just 00:26:39.740 --> 00:26:42.599 like, here they are. You know, I think that— 00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:46.430 There are two narratives that are created for 00:26:46.430 --> 00:26:49.269 Shane by the media. And I think that's part of 00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:52.470 the like exosystem, right? Like the fact that 00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:57.710 A, the media creates the rivalry between Ilya 00:26:57.710 --> 00:27:00.769 and Shane, right? Like they did this. Like they 00:27:00.769 --> 00:27:03.490 are like, you know, to the outside world, the 00:27:03.490 --> 00:27:05.990 media has created like all anyone sees are these 00:27:05.990 --> 00:27:09.000 like two elite athletes. And super competitive, 00:27:09.099 --> 00:27:12.079 intensely competitive, right? And like the media 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:15.359 turns this story into, you know, a story about 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:17.940 ambition and rivalry. And they're completely 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:20.259 erasing, obviously, anything, which actually 00:27:20.259 --> 00:27:22.460 is kind of nice for them in some ways because 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:25.319 it gives them cover. But then later at the cottage, 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.000 you kind of see that because of that, it also 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.279 is harder for them to even like be seen in public 00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.339 together as friends, you know? And another one 00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:36.000 that I thought was interesting in terms of the 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.400 media creating an air. is when he starts dating 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.799 Rhodes, right? The media constructs this narrative 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.019 that like he's in a relationship with an actress, 00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:46.119 the hottest actress in all of Canada. And he's 00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.200 obviously straight and he's fitting the mold 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.759 of a hockey star. The two people who were like 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:53.400 talking, they're like, you know, something about 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.420 athletes and actors. They just can't keep their 00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:58.359 hands off each other, you know? And Shane is 00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:00.200 like kind of glad that he has this like cover 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.960 again by the media, but also like it does kill 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.359 him inside, you know? And then he just loves 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:08.430 it. It looks out that he picked this girl who's 00:28:08.430 --> 00:28:11.779 so great, who turns out to be so great. Yeah, 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.099 so the macro system is literally like the big 00:28:15.099 --> 00:28:19.039 picture, like culture, society, what are culture 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:21.420 values, right? It's like, where in the world 00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:23.519 are you? You know, if you're in Canada, that 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.460 may be a safer place to be gay than Russia. Like, 00:28:27.460 --> 00:28:31.519 so, you know, so that's a big deal. But not just 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:35.299 like expectations around sexual orientation, 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.849 but also around masculinity or race, right? I 00:28:39.849 --> 00:28:41.470 don't know, you know, I know what it's like. 00:28:41.609 --> 00:28:43.369 Oh, you guys talked, you talked about this in 00:28:43.369 --> 00:28:45.450 one of your episodes, like the myth of the model 00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:47.970 minority. You know, what does it mean to be Asian? 00:28:48.509 --> 00:28:51.589 That myth of the model minority is, you know, 00:28:51.589 --> 00:28:54.390 I'm sure it's just as real in Canada as it is 00:28:54.390 --> 00:28:57.769 in the U .S., right? So that's all part of the 00:28:57.769 --> 00:29:00.769 macro system. So whatever those pressures are 00:29:00.769 --> 00:29:05.309 to fit a certain mold, that's part of, you know, 00:29:05.309 --> 00:29:09.049 your identity as well. And for a lot of us, that... 00:29:09.069 --> 00:29:12.369 pressure to to fit a mold and that's expected 00:29:12.369 --> 00:29:16.089 of us is is part of you know what makes us who 00:29:16.089 --> 00:29:19.490 we are if we decide to um conform to that mold 00:29:19.490 --> 00:29:21.690 or maybe we like it maybe that maybe that is 00:29:21.690 --> 00:29:24.910 what we aspire to be um but we but definitely 00:29:24.910 --> 00:29:29.779 Shane is uh he has privilege around some of these 00:29:29.779 --> 00:29:33.059 things because he's a high level athlete. So 00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:36.059 he's probably considered, you know, masculine 00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:39.039 and competent and athletic, those kinds of things. 00:29:39.099 --> 00:29:44.039 But he's constrained by prevailing views of that 00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.519 intersection of being a pro athlete and gay or 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.019 being Asian and an athlete or whatever that is. 00:29:52.099 --> 00:29:55.769 So that's really the macro system. He's Shane 00:29:55.769 --> 00:29:59.470 is literally like a walking contradiction of 00:29:59.470 --> 00:30:02.769 everything that the macro system expects him 00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:06.089 to be, because, you know, hockey is like a predominantly 00:30:06.089 --> 00:30:09.089 white sport, predominantly straight, at least 00:30:09.089 --> 00:30:11.410 as far as we know. Right. Predominantly hyper 00:30:11.410 --> 00:30:14.950 masculine. And Shane is like, you know, he is, 00:30:15.009 --> 00:30:17.990 you know, biracial. He's gay and he is neurodivergent, 00:30:18.089 --> 00:30:20.970 which doesn't help him with the whole hyper masculinity 00:30:20.970 --> 00:30:25.470 piece. You know, so it's it's it he's. The system, 00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:29.589 again, is contradicting itself in his world. 00:30:29.769 --> 00:30:31.210 And I mean, they don't talk about this in the 00:30:31.210 --> 00:30:34.509 show, but I always think like I know he's he's 00:30:34.509 --> 00:30:38.730 biracial, but he can pass as white. And so I 00:30:38.730 --> 00:30:41.109 also think there's some privilege that comes 00:30:41.109 --> 00:30:45.089 with just his phenotype, because like to me, 00:30:45.089 --> 00:30:49.349 except that they identified him as Asian, I probably 00:30:49.349 --> 00:30:52.650 wouldn't have on my own. They don't really talk 00:30:52.650 --> 00:30:55.430 about that in the show. But, you know, I like 00:30:55.430 --> 00:30:58.829 for for folks who who can pass, not that like 00:30:58.829 --> 00:31:01.849 I don't encourage passing. I want people to to 00:31:01.849 --> 00:31:05.910 be who they are. But people who who can pass 00:31:05.910 --> 00:31:08.930 as white are also received differently. So he 00:31:08.930 --> 00:31:12.210 has a lot of privilege around. He actually does 00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:15.240 talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So when he 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:17.380 first meets Rose, I know this show way too well, 00:31:17.380 --> 00:31:20.099 you guys. No, no, it's great. When he first meets 00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:22.640 Rose, they have this whole conversation. She 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:24.720 does ask him like he told he tells her about 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:26.900 when he was like a young kid and he was doing 00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:29.079 some sort of hockey thing. There were two Asian 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:31.579 kids, he said, on that team. And she's like, 00:31:31.660 --> 00:31:33.099 that must have been tough for the two of you. 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:35.930 And he said. More for him than for me. And he 00:31:35.930 --> 00:31:38.589 talks about that. He passed more than the other 00:31:38.589 --> 00:31:41.009 kid because he has a Western last name. And then 00:31:41.009 --> 00:31:42.349 she's like, you were probably also very good 00:31:42.349 --> 00:31:43.910 at hockey. And he's like, yes, I was also very 00:31:43.910 --> 00:31:46.029 good at hockey. So that also helped him. Like 00:31:46.029 --> 00:31:48.390 the kids were harder on that other kid, the other 00:31:48.390 --> 00:31:50.990 Asian kid than on Shane because he was passing 00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:52.990 more. So that's an interesting point that you 00:31:52.990 --> 00:31:55.289 bring up because he does mention that. And we're 00:31:55.289 --> 00:31:57.170 going to talk about like the chrono system, right? 00:31:57.269 --> 00:32:00.869 Because that is how do I change over time, right? 00:32:01.089 --> 00:32:03.789 It's... It is how you change over time, but it's 00:32:03.789 --> 00:32:08.329 also a function of like, at what point in your 00:32:08.329 --> 00:32:11.210 development do things happen? Right. And so, 00:32:11.230 --> 00:32:13.069 you know, like I was saying earlier, like if 00:32:13.069 --> 00:32:15.630 you, you know, if Ilya lost his mother at 25 00:32:15.630 --> 00:32:18.269 rather than like eight or 10 or however old he 00:32:18.269 --> 00:32:21.589 was, that's it's a very different developmental 00:32:21.589 --> 00:32:24.170 trajectory. When you say 12, you're like, excuse 00:32:24.170 --> 00:32:26.809 me, get the details right. Right. But you think 00:32:26.809 --> 00:32:28.910 about that, like you guys are, you know, we're 00:32:28.910 --> 00:32:30.710 all parents and we all have kids at different 00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:34.170 ages. And if you, you know, when something happens 00:32:34.170 --> 00:32:36.809 and at a certain age, it's a much, it's just 00:32:36.809 --> 00:32:39.289 different. Right. Which is why I brought up how. 00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:42.000 young they were when they first start getting 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.980 notoriety and money. Like, like if I made a hundred 00:32:45.980 --> 00:32:48.420 thousand dollars when I was 18, there would be 00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:52.839 signs and they would not be good. Well, Ilya 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:55.839 buys himself a bunch of sports cars. So you can, 00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:58.079 so you could see that, like, you know, and that's 00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:00.420 why I think about Scott a lot too, is like, I 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:03.420 feel like Scott in terms of like his age, like 00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:06.579 he's a lot older than them in the series. And 00:33:06.579 --> 00:33:11.569 I think the way he handled. the same situations 00:33:11.569 --> 00:33:15.819 or very similar situations are. partly a function 00:33:15.819 --> 00:33:18.640 of his age. Like he's getting, he's getting ready 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:21.759 to retire. His career's almost over. He's like, 00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:23.880 my fun goal, I'm out. Right. You know, which 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:27.119 might not be what somebody who's 22 is willing 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.779 to do when they've got like at least, you know, 00:33:29.779 --> 00:33:32.200 eight, 10 years of, of a career ahead of them. 00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:37.440 So, you know, as societal attitudes evolve, you 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.779 know, our ability to kind of live more authentically 00:33:40.779 --> 00:33:43.640 might change. And that, I think that's kind of 00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:46.680 what's happening. happening in this series a 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:50.339 little bit. Yeah. I think the fact that they 00:33:50.339 --> 00:33:56.339 meet each other so young at 17 and like the frontal 00:33:56.339 --> 00:33:59.259 lobe is not nearly finished developing yet. Right. 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:01.319 And they're boys. So it's going to take a little 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:05.500 bit longer. And the fact that they meet, they 00:34:05.500 --> 00:34:09.619 imprint upon each other. at such a young age. 00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:12.420 And they both do say like, it's the only person 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:15.320 I've loved, right? And I think that also matters 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:17.619 in some ways. Like, you know, think about how 00:34:17.619 --> 00:34:20.619 much your needs and wants and desires and types 00:34:20.619 --> 00:34:23.420 change the older you get. Like, who is to say 00:34:23.420 --> 00:34:25.179 that they would have been together if they had 00:34:25.179 --> 00:34:28.019 met each other at 25, you know, and they would 00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:29.619 have fallen in love. So I think that's a really 00:34:29.619 --> 00:34:31.139 interesting part of the story. A lot of people 00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:33.539 forget that they're so young when they meet. 00:34:33.699 --> 00:34:35.760 And when you're that young, love is already like 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.369 so passionate. There's so much. lust. Like all 00:34:38.369 --> 00:34:40.289 you want to do is suck each other's faces, you 00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:43.150 know, at that age, you know, which is funny because 00:34:43.150 --> 00:34:44.449 like a lot of people are like, why are they always 00:34:44.449 --> 00:34:46.869 having sex? I'm like, dude, that's not what you 00:34:46.869 --> 00:34:48.710 wanted to do when you were like a teenager and 00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:50.909 like you were like in lust. Did you guys forget? 00:34:51.090 --> 00:34:54.550 You know, like, so it's interesting of you mentioning 00:34:54.550 --> 00:34:58.130 that it also matters what age that something 00:34:58.130 --> 00:35:00.690 happens to you is also important. I think that's 00:35:00.690 --> 00:35:03.150 something I don't often think about when I think 00:35:03.150 --> 00:35:06.119 about the system. I love that you brought up 00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:08.860 the chrono system because it's like not just 00:35:08.860 --> 00:35:11.539 change over time. And I know identity isn't static. 00:35:11.659 --> 00:35:13.699 That's like the theme of this whole. But is there 00:35:13.699 --> 00:35:18.920 a point where it's like it becomes inflexible? 00:35:19.019 --> 00:35:21.300 I mean, because sometimes you think of identity 00:35:21.300 --> 00:35:26.380 as this this core element of you. The Brown -Frenbrenner 00:35:26.380 --> 00:35:29.420 theory is like a developmental psychology theory, 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.119 right? So when I think of developmental psychology, 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:36.429 I really think of like. children. And certainly 00:35:36.429 --> 00:35:39.190 this theory could be applied throughout the life, 00:35:39.250 --> 00:35:42.409 but like, where does it, where's your identity 00:35:42.409 --> 00:35:45.630 fixed or is it ever fixed? I don't think it is 00:35:45.630 --> 00:35:48.449 ever fixed. I think it, I think it's, it's fixed 00:35:48.449 --> 00:35:51.650 if you dig in, you know? So, and I also think 00:35:51.650 --> 00:35:53.409 that there's a, there's a difference between 00:35:53.409 --> 00:35:56.090 like identity and temperament and we have, we 00:35:56.090 --> 00:35:59.630 all have temperament. I, this is just my theory 00:35:59.630 --> 00:36:02.030 of this. I think temperament is sort of fixed. 00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:04.679 I think we could say that even about each other. 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.199 Like you can, it's like trying to hold a beach 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.380 ball underwater for me to try to be like real 00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:12.639 nice. And at some point it just, you know. That 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.900 face, that face gives it all away. But identity, 00:36:17.300 --> 00:36:19.579 you know, like every developmental, I shouldn't 00:36:19.579 --> 00:36:21.619 say every developmental theory, but many developmental 00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:25.079 theories recognize this ability to like revisit, 00:36:25.300 --> 00:36:28.219 right? So even if you go to like Eric Erickson, 00:36:28.340 --> 00:36:30.780 right? And you study, you work with little ones, 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:33.070 so you know, like. So they say from like babies, 00:36:33.250 --> 00:36:36.889 babies zero to two are learning to trust, right? 00:36:36.949 --> 00:36:40.110 Trust versus mistrust is the conflict. If you 00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:43.730 resolve that on the mistrust side, it doesn't 00:36:43.730 --> 00:36:46.050 mean you'll never trust. You can always, you 00:36:46.050 --> 00:36:49.650 could revisit any of those stages. So, but you 00:36:49.650 --> 00:36:51.849 have to be willing to. You have to be willing 00:36:51.849 --> 00:36:55.989 to say, I'm having an issue with trust and I'm 00:36:55.989 --> 00:36:58.190 going to work on that, right? And so I think. 00:36:58.730 --> 00:37:03.070 we have some agency in whether or not it's static. 00:37:03.210 --> 00:37:05.309 I feel like I fall into the trap of thinking 00:37:05.309 --> 00:37:08.190 identity is this like static thing, which it's 00:37:08.190 --> 00:37:12.010 not. It can be fluid in so many ways. And it's 00:37:12.010 --> 00:37:16.150 like what the system is describing is that it's 00:37:16.150 --> 00:37:20.469 layered and overlapping, that some things persist 00:37:20.469 --> 00:37:24.369 throughout. Like, I also think that it like gives 00:37:24.369 --> 00:37:28.300 people that sense of empathy to understand. That 00:37:28.300 --> 00:37:32.599 people aren't just as they are fully formed when 00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:35.980 they arrive on this planet. That, like, we are 00:37:35.980 --> 00:37:39.519 born into these systems that shape us and create 00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:42.900 who we are from an identity perspective. And 00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:47.889 for me, I think I couch a lot of my hope. and 00:37:47.889 --> 00:37:51.570 like desire to be a hopeful person and in cynicism 00:37:51.570 --> 00:37:55.010 because it feels protective. All the time we're 00:37:55.010 --> 00:37:56.989 sitting here like thinking nothing's going to 00:37:56.989 --> 00:38:00.869 change, like everything is awful and it's always 00:38:00.869 --> 00:38:03.150 going to be the way this is. And I think we get 00:38:03.150 --> 00:38:08.079 stuck in these pathways. But this in this system, 00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.619 you think, OK, there is this potential for humans 00:38:11.619 --> 00:38:15.639 to change if they were given like a different 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:19.460 like milieu. Yeah. But to your point, like everything 00:38:19.460 --> 00:38:22.159 can change. Like these, you know, what identity 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:24.519 development and research on identity development 00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:27.039 tells us is that, A, people are really resilient 00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:31.019 and B. there's an immense capacity for change, 00:38:31.179 --> 00:38:34.320 you know, positive and negative, but actually 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.539 I think more positive. I agree with you, Tap. 00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:39.340 Like your identity, I don't think is ever static. 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:42.019 Like you never stop developing who you are as 00:38:42.019 --> 00:38:44.539 a person. And I think that's why people say like, 00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:46.639 be the best version of yourself. And I think 00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:48.599 part of that is neuroplasticity, right? Like 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:50.840 the fact that you can tell your brain to behave 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:52.880 a certain way or to believe in certain things, 00:38:52.900 --> 00:38:55.579 and that's gonna... come to fruition. It's so 00:38:55.579 --> 00:39:00.119 surprising to hear two and really like hopeful 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.699 to hear two educators say identity is never fixed. 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:08.059 I love that, actually, because again, I was like, 00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:10.659 is that just like pie in the sky kind of dream? 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:13.619 Like, but it's actually based in these theories. 00:39:13.780 --> 00:39:18.760 We are in a developmental stage right now that 00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:22.380 is like. Generativity versus stagnation, right? 00:39:22.460 --> 00:39:26.480 That's Erickson's stage for us. And so in this 00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.320 part of our life, it's like, well, what are we 00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:31.500 going to do? Are we going to contribute to the 00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:34.199 world? Are we going to volunteer? Are we going 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:37.119 to protest? Are we going to, you know, whatever 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:40.260 it is, like contribute in our work life? Or are 00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:42.400 we going to become stagnant and just be like, 00:39:42.460 --> 00:39:45.380 I'm done cooking, right? Like, so the stagnation 00:39:45.380 --> 00:39:49.250 could, that could influence like. literally like 00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:53.070 that you get stuck in a certain identity. But 00:39:53.070 --> 00:39:56.050 if you resolve these conflicts, these identity 00:39:56.050 --> 00:40:00.329 conflicts in an adaptive way, then you will keep 00:40:00.329 --> 00:40:02.710 growing and changing. And if you think about 00:40:02.710 --> 00:40:05.389 Bronfenbrenner. The systems are going to keep 00:40:05.389 --> 00:40:08.630 impacting you. Right. And so as you know, as 00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:12.050 the people around you change and things happen 00:40:12.050 --> 00:40:15.329 and experiences happen, you will probably respond 00:40:15.329 --> 00:40:19.110 to those. And the responses to those also are 00:40:19.110 --> 00:40:22.349 going to impact your identity. Like think about 00:40:22.349 --> 00:40:26.630 bring it back to Shane. Think about when he is 00:40:26.630 --> 00:40:30.440 confronted with. his identity with his hidden 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:33.639 identity of being gay by rose right where she 00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:36.199 essentially gives him the space to come out to 00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:39.539 himself and then to the first person ever he 00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:42.079 and we've talked about this a lot and you know 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:43.619 many people have but like that could have gone 00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:45.940 so many different ways even if she gave him the 00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:47.699 space for it he could have just like doubled 00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:49.639 down and be like nope i'm good like i don't want 00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:51.960 to talk about it right or he could that whole 00:40:52.570 --> 00:40:54.809 That whole scene could have gone exactly the 00:40:54.809 --> 00:40:56.849 way it went. And he could have just been like, 00:40:56.889 --> 00:40:58.929 OK, so one person knows my secret safe. That's 00:40:58.929 --> 00:41:02.590 it. Right. But what he did with that is actually 00:41:02.590 --> 00:41:07.050 start changing his his like his place in the 00:41:07.050 --> 00:41:10.690 world. Right. He got a stylist. Right. He said, 00:41:10.789 --> 00:41:14.590 I'm going to be my truest self, like not. Too 00:41:14.590 --> 00:41:16.289 much publicly because there's still a lot of 00:41:16.289 --> 00:41:20.090 risk, but I'm going to get the boy I want because 00:41:20.090 --> 00:41:23.110 like I've decided like I cannot live my life 00:41:23.110 --> 00:41:26.769 pre this moment. I'm going to live my life post 00:41:26.769 --> 00:41:28.570 this moment. He could he could have chosen to 00:41:28.570 --> 00:41:30.909 continue doing what he was doing before, but 00:41:30.909 --> 00:41:34.570 he got a stylist. He came into that Tampa. bar 00:41:34.570 --> 00:41:37.489 to talk to Ilya he came in with one mission like 00:41:37.489 --> 00:41:40.690 I'm gonna get this boy right and his confidence 00:41:40.690 --> 00:41:44.309 was so clear like it was palpable when they're 00:41:44.309 --> 00:41:46.929 talking at the bar like he's like I got a stylist 00:41:46.929 --> 00:41:49.849 Rose and I are not compatible and then later 00:41:49.849 --> 00:41:52.110 what is your room number right like he is just 00:41:52.110 --> 00:41:56.110 like changed not completely but significantly 00:41:56.110 --> 00:41:58.510 from the moment where he came out to himself 00:41:58.510 --> 00:42:01.090 specifically you know yeah and so that's the 00:42:01.090 --> 00:42:04.500 first moment where he actually asked for the 00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.039 room. Like it was a nice flip of the script. 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:10.400 And it was also the first moment where you saw 00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:13.760 Ilya like on. kind of on the back foot of this 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:17.059 relationship yeah and also like tab to your point 00:42:17.059 --> 00:42:20.340 they are also older now right so there's definitely 00:42:20.340 --> 00:42:25.219 a lot more maturity and a lot more um just confidence 00:42:25.219 --> 00:42:28.579 life experience whatever it may be and then you 00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:31.679 know he also not only does he like you have this 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:33.599 confidence where he's like pressing on illy like 00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:36.280 stop being an asshole i know you feel this too 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:38.420 like let's not play these games anymore like 00:42:38.420 --> 00:42:41.380 he drives that which is before like he they know 00:42:41.389 --> 00:42:43.289 Never did that. You know, like Ilya kind of drove 00:42:43.289 --> 00:42:45.710 that a little bit. But so, yeah, like this one 00:42:45.710 --> 00:42:50.110 moment with Rose flipped the script for him and 00:42:50.110 --> 00:42:52.590 then ended up with the cottage. And then speaking 00:42:52.590 --> 00:42:56.769 of like, you know. how development can keep happening 00:42:56.769 --> 00:43:00.789 over time. Like I wonder about Shane's mom, like 00:43:00.789 --> 00:43:03.869 Shane's mom has to like her whole identity as 00:43:03.869 --> 00:43:07.769 a mom and like who my kid is changes as a, and 00:43:07.769 --> 00:43:11.190 his dad too, as a result of now learning about 00:43:11.190 --> 00:43:14.869 Shane. So they've got to adapt. So their identity 00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:18.150 is going to evolve as a function of learning 00:43:18.150 --> 00:43:20.889 something new about their kid. Yeah. Yeah. And 00:43:20.889 --> 00:43:25.090 I think if our last episode was about how women 00:43:25.090 --> 00:43:28.869 are like facing so much loss in trench foot of 00:43:28.869 --> 00:43:31.289 their fundamental identity as a woman is being 00:43:31.289 --> 00:43:35.969 like, you know, is like being chipped away. I 00:43:35.969 --> 00:43:38.090 think this one is from, I mean, it sounds like 00:43:38.090 --> 00:43:40.110 a broken record. This one is one of hope. Like 00:43:40.110 --> 00:43:43.809 this is the, it's the future. It gives you this 00:43:43.809 --> 00:43:48.070 idea that like you're never done. learning right 00:43:48.070 --> 00:43:50.989 but but you're also your brain is also never 00:43:50.989 --> 00:43:54.570 done like developing a different perspective 00:43:54.570 --> 00:44:00.230 or being capable of of doing more or or being 00:44:00.230 --> 00:44:02.610 more empathetic or understanding another one's 00:44:02.610 --> 00:44:08.199 perspective as long as you are given the milieu 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:11.579 that allows that, right? And that's what in so 00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:15.340 many ways, like representation matters, like 00:44:15.340 --> 00:44:19.619 all of that matters. These external things, they 00:44:19.619 --> 00:44:22.980 matter in how you view yourself. And that only 00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:26.139 that can drive the change. If you're constantly 00:44:26.139 --> 00:44:29.760 exposed to the same thing over and over, like 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:32.760 you're not going to change. So either the world 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.800 has to change around you or you have to seek 00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:38.920 it out. And you all talked about you talked about 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:42.360 this like a couple like way episodes ago about 00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:46.119 that the way in which this show has flipped the 00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:49.219 script on like expectations. And I think that 00:44:49.219 --> 00:44:52.900 another. important aspect of the show is that 00:44:52.900 --> 00:44:56.500 it's normalized adaptive coping, right? Because 00:44:56.500 --> 00:45:00.500 maladaptive coping is really sexy and lots of 00:45:00.500 --> 00:45:02.780 people watch it because we're so used to watching 00:45:02.780 --> 00:45:05.300 people crash and burn and make bad decisions 00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:08.239 and relationships fall apart. And right. So you, 00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:10.159 you know, I loved your episode when you talked 00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:15.000 about this, but this. This series has normalized 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.320 adaptive coping. It has shown us like a possibility 00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.780 that's still sexy and fun to watch and engaging. 00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.139 But it's like, here's what's possible when we 00:45:26.139 --> 00:45:30.519 support one another. I, you know, Tab, I love 00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:33.139 this framework, as do you. And for me, because 00:45:33.139 --> 00:45:36.619 it's like, you know. what it does is it does 00:45:36.619 --> 00:45:39.219 for shane anyway like it takes his story or all 00:45:39.219 --> 00:45:41.380 the you know characters in the story and it makes 00:45:41.380 --> 00:45:45.019 it feel like very deeply personal and very deeply 00:45:45.019 --> 00:45:48.320 universal right like you yes you have these fictional 00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:50.239 characters shane for example you know biracial 00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:53.039 gay you know autistic elite hockey player right 00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:56.989 and but like the architecture of how he became 00:45:56.989 --> 00:45:59.369 who he is, you know, the family, the culture, 00:45:59.429 --> 00:46:01.769 the institutions, the passage of time. That's 00:46:01.769 --> 00:46:03.389 all of our stories. That's everybody's stories, 00:46:03.489 --> 00:46:05.889 right? So like, I love that we are, we're all 00:46:05.889 --> 00:46:08.289 being shaped by these systems. And it's interesting 00:46:08.289 --> 00:46:10.610 to me to take someone like Shane or Ilya, you 00:46:10.610 --> 00:46:13.289 know, which we'll do and like put them in there 00:46:13.289 --> 00:46:15.650 to see how universal it really is. Well, thank 00:46:15.650 --> 00:46:19.230 you. Well, thank you so much for coming and talking 00:46:19.230 --> 00:46:21.329 about this and for writing the article. We will 00:46:21.329 --> 00:46:24.050 link it. And really appreciate you joining us 00:46:24.050 --> 00:46:27.349 today, Dr. Tabb. The pleasure is all ours. Wow. 00:46:27.530 --> 00:46:31.369 That was really fascinating stuff. First of all, 00:46:31.369 --> 00:46:34.130 I'm really glad that I read up a little bit on 00:46:34.130 --> 00:46:39.010 this ecological theory before because it's just 00:46:39.010 --> 00:46:43.349 really fascinating to listen to Dr. Tabb. I don't 00:46:43.349 --> 00:46:47.079 know why I keep calling her Dr. Tabb. I'm right. 00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:49.539 Like, I don't think I've ever done that in any 00:46:49.539 --> 00:46:52.360 real setting. Never actually called her that. 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:55.679 But it just rolls off the tongue. Okay. It really 00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.059 does. It really does. And it really was a really 00:46:58.059 --> 00:47:01.000 fascinating conversation. As you know, I love 00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:03.519 this framework. And I cannot wait to do this 00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:07.880 for Ilya next week. Oh, so we are doing this 00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:09.960 again next week. I love it. We are doing this 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.559 again. Yeah. But from a different sort of point 00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:17.639 of view, I think. I think Tab has a little bit 00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:19.880 of a different framework, but I'm excited for 00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.880 that one for Ilya. Okay. So let's talk about 00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:28.920 our sunshine for this week. So in honor of Bronfenbrenner, 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:34.010 I strengthened. All my bonds across my microsystem 00:47:34.010 --> 00:47:37.969 this weekend. So many groups, so many groups 00:47:37.969 --> 00:47:41.809 of friends, family, my parents, you know, my 00:47:41.809 --> 00:47:45.409 kids, my husband. It was my birthday. So I got 00:47:45.409 --> 00:47:49.010 to see all sorts of people. It was just a really 00:47:49.010 --> 00:47:53.929 beautiful weekend of love. Well, listen, I know 00:47:53.929 --> 00:47:55.789 I've said happy birthday to you a million times 00:47:55.789 --> 00:47:59.309 already, but once again. Happy birthday. Oh, 00:47:59.449 --> 00:48:02.050 well, I never get tired of hearing that. No, 00:48:02.070 --> 00:48:05.269 you don't. Well, you know what? I'm just going 00:48:05.269 --> 00:48:09.010 to share. I'm going to steal your birthday, Sunshine. 00:48:09.489 --> 00:48:12.250 And only because we were celebrating together 00:48:12.250 --> 00:48:16.090 this weekend. And we have spent the last two 00:48:16.090 --> 00:48:18.269 weekends celebrating our friend's 50th birthdays. 00:48:18.590 --> 00:48:22.110 And so our microsystems are definitely strengthening 00:48:22.110 --> 00:48:26.769 all throughout the weeks. And last weekend we 00:48:26.769 --> 00:48:29.670 were. at a 70s disco party. This weekend, we 00:48:29.670 --> 00:48:32.989 were at a 1920s speakeasy party. So we're just 00:48:32.989 --> 00:48:35.610 hopping through the decades and we're having 00:48:35.610 --> 00:48:38.050 a great time, you know, and in heated rivalry, 00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:42.449 we're like in the early to mid 2000s. So let's 00:48:42.449 --> 00:48:46.250 go. So here's to time travel, I guess. Yeah, 00:48:46.250 --> 00:48:48.550 we're just, our moment of sunshine is time travel. 00:48:48.730 --> 00:48:51.989 Yeah, there you go. I love it. Next week on Everyone 00:48:51.989 --> 00:48:54.190 Deserves Sunshine, we're talking about Ilya's 00:48:54.190 --> 00:48:56.929 identity. Subscribe now. wherever you get your 00:48:56.929 --> 00:48:58.949 podcasts. And if you want to say hi to the girls 00:48:58.949 --> 00:49:01.329 in the crease, find us on Instagram, Facebook, 00:49:01.429 --> 00:49:04.550 and thread at everyone deserves sunshine or email 00:49:04.550 --> 00:49:08.510 us at everyone deserves sunshine at gmail .com. 00:49:08.650 --> 00:49:11.570 New episodes drop on Mondays. See you then.