watch much TV, but I've been taken prisoner by
heated rivalry. I'd heard that I might feel some
type of way, but I didn't think I'd be this fucked
up every single day. I'm having wicked dreams,
a man on hockey teams, fated to fall in love,
drowning in secrecy. I don't claim to be proud.
I'm Shane and Ilya, I always wanna scream Welcome
to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana. And
I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease. And
our intro sounds a little different today, Diana.
Yeah, you just heard the amazing cover of Pink
Pony Club by Alisa. Thank you, Alisa, for giving
us permission to use this stellar homage. I mean,
I don't even want to call it a parody because
let's be honest, the words are really speaking
to me in a very personal way. Very personal way.
It's lightly unhinged, but it's like so truthful
and honestly like oddly moving. I think I've
listened to it, I don't know, like definitely
a dozen times probably by now. I want it like
on my Spotify playlist. I mean, it is truly a
professional job. I'm always blown away by the...
creativity and the sheer talent shown by this
fandom it's like absolutely insane it's I know
bonkers I know like every day I see something
new and exciting and like I'm always sharing
things and she wrote the song about her feelings
for the show, aka like all of our feelings for
the show. And we're all listening to it because
like we get those feelings because it's all our
feelings, all of them, you know? All our feelings,
all of them. Wait, Diana, did you know the title
of our episode today is Women in Our Feelings?
And our feelings? I'm shocked, girl. Like, shocked.
What? And also, also, also, this is episode 10,
Double Digits Baby. Oh, my God. Whoa. The big
10. I can't believe we've been doing this for
10 weeks. I was about to say like 10 years, but
it kind of feels like 10 years, right? Because
outside of this, there's a lot. going on. Yeah,
exactly. All right. So let's go. This is episode
10, Women and Our Feelings. So Women and Our
Feelings, that's kind of a timely topic for Women's
History Month. And I want to just say most of
the time, I just feel like this. raw, exposed
nerve walking around this world. Like, do you
feel that way? Of course, yeah. I feel like we
all do. I read this post, actually, by Kristen
Chirico, I believe. That's her handle on threads.
And it's an older post, probably like from December,
I want to say. But it keeps circulating around
the fandom, and she wrote, if I have learned
nothing else from heated rivalry discourse, it's
that women are fucking sad. Like, sad in a bone
-deep trench foot off the... heart kind of way.
There's a hopelessness that has sort of been
buried in the backyard of our minds for years.
And it feels like a dog or it feels like the
dog just dug it up, so to speak. And when I read
that, I thought literally, yes, like exactly
the feeling. Women are sad and we need to make
an episode about that because it has a lot to
do with us and heated rivalry and so on. And
do you remember what I said? I do. And I'm sure
you're about to tell everyone. I said I love
trench foot. I did say that. I said that. It's
like you said it repeatedly, too. Like I tried
to ignore it. I'm like, OK, no one loves trench
foot. First of all, I didn't even exactly know
like what it was. But right now I'm a captive
audience. So why don't you? talk about it. Yeah,
because I have been trying to tell you what Trenchfoot
is and you like never took the bait. So here
you are. This entire moment, this podcast has
been for this moment. Oh wait, are we doing this
just so you could talk about Trenchfoot? Yes.
Okay, awesome. This is no longer a heated rivalry
podcast. This is about a World War I injury.
Okay, so first of all, Kristen's framing of the
post appeals. to me in every way. And by the
way, Kristen, if you're listening, thank you
for inspiring this episode. I mean, this fandom
is just completely amazing. So we did a whole
episode based on this thread that you made in
December. But OK, so I'm an infectious disease
doctor. Wait, you're a doctor? I am. I had no
idea. You had no idea. Have I mentioned it? You
have never mentioned this ever before. Go ahead.
Sorry. Including on this podcast, right? So I'm
specifically an infectious disease doctor. I
love British period dramas. And I really love
this very vivid metaphor. So Trench Foot of the
Heart really, really speaks to me. Like, OK,
like, OK, like, tell me how it speaks to you.
And exactly for the listeners who may not know
what trench foot is, please explain it to us.
And I could see it in your face that you really
badly cannot wait. Go ahead. So, OK, so it's
like frostbite, but without the frost. And it's
this like throwback to World War One. things
that affected British and American soldiers because
apparently their trenches were at a lower elevation
and allowed water to accumulate. I'm going to
stop here. I could talk a lot more about the
actual nuances. I think I'm good. I think I'm
good. I think, yeah. But why does this metaphor
speak to me? And you're going to like this, Diana.
We'll see. TBD. TB determined. I don't, like
is a weird word to use for this metaphor, but
you're going to, it's going to speak to you.
I promise. Trench foot is this injury that happens
with prolonged exposure to a bad environment,
right? You don't get trench foot from one bad
day. You get it from being stuck, wet, cold,
without reprieve for way too long. And the tissue
doesn't get slashed. It just stops getting enough
blood. It's painful. Then it becomes numb. And
then it rots and dies from neglect. And that's
like a really specific kind of suffering. It's
not this like catastrophic blow, but it's a sustained
circulatory fatigue and collapse. Wait, were
you still talking about trench foot at that moment
or were you trying to move to something else?
Well, I see that that's the metaphor, right?
Like she's describing this feeling. this trench
foot of the heart where you're just been exposed
to this bad environment for so long that something
in it just like turns numb and it's like rotting,
right? And I'm sort of jealous at how great this
metaphor is because I think it strikes at the
core of how women's grief, whether it's a personal
one or a collective one, manifests. And it inspired
you to write something, right? It did. Like that
whole, that whole thread inspired an essay that
I wrote and it's called I Died in 2020 and Six
Episodes Revived Me. And can I read something
like a little bit from it? Oh my gosh, of course.
Go for it. And obviously it has to do with trench
foot. So I said, I said, I died in March 2020,
but very possibly I had been slowly dying for
a long time. It wasn't the kind of death that
stops your heart. It was quieter, much more unseen,
but perhaps even more tragic. It was the kind
where you keep waking up, answering emails, making
dinner, smiling when appropriate and expected.
The kind where your body keeps moving, but the
person inside of you almost intends entirely
disappears my death wasn't sudden it was a death
by accumulation a death by a million paper cuts
and a few deep slashes you even said the word
slash but oof that is french foot right like
that's the i'm sorry i just every time you say
it i have to laugh i know it's not funny but
listen Audience, this is a listeners is a very
serious topic about women and their feelings
and also trench foot. So we can help ourselves
to make serious things kind of silly and funny.
Yeah, because that's what we do with our trench
foot. But like it's that that's what I mean.
It's this like crushing, chronic, low grade grief
that. I think women just really, we feel that.
We feel that in our bones. And listen, we talk
so much about joy and finding sunshine and all
these feelings that heated rivalry evokes. But
on the flip, it's interesting to me that so many
women within the fandom specifically, because
I've been reading and paying attention, are also
expressing this deep sadness when talking about
heated rivalry. This emotional response that
seems to be occurring in women watching the show.
Like it's sadness and joy intertwined kind of.
And like, why is it happening? What is your theory?
So when I think about it, Shane and Ilya's story
is not just this like romantic, hot love affair.
I mean, it's definitely that, but it's not just
that. And I think at the core of it, it's also
a story about loss because Shane and Ilya have.
a decade of carrying something real and precious
in complete secrecy. They have a decade of a
relationship that exists but could never be expressed.
And because for Shane, that could have lost his
career, cost him that career. And that career
is, you know, the love of his life too. And for
Ilya, in addition to that, I mean, he could have
lost his life. He could have... gotten hurt because
he was a closeted hockey player from Russia.
I mean, those are the stakes for the show, which
sometimes we don't always, I don't know, it's
there, but it's not always there. I mean, that's
the beauty of the show, I think. But this is
the thing. Women fundamentally understand. these
high stakes. Maybe not the exact circumstances.
And, you know, certainly queer women, of course,
have like a front row seat to all of this. But
women in general just understand being asked
to hide ourselves, right? We understand navigating
this tightrope of be enough, but not too much.
We know this is the daily persistent. condition
of our existence um shane and ilia didn't have
the luxury of being themselves fully and neither
in ways that are big and small to many of the
women watching this show and i think we understand
this loss in our bones yeah you're right and
like Women are incredibly good at continuing
to function, right, while carrying like all the
sadness that never fully resolves. We just like
keep moving and keep managing and keep caring
for other people, you know, while kind of ignoring
ourselves. And the sadness that we feel often
slowly becomes part of this like emotional climate
that we live in. Like you said, it becomes, you
know, part of our bones, part of our makeup.
I wrote that in my essay, like I wrote before
2020. mostly alive, like mostly is doing the
heavy lifting here, you know, like I was a strong
teacher, you know, I love my job with every fiber
of my being. I enjoyed nothing more than coming
to work and talking to my juniors and seniors
about literature and writing and culture and
history and everything and anything that English
high school English teachers talk about, you
know. And, you know, at the same time, I love
spending lunches with other teachers and administrators
and all the other staff members in the building.
Right. Like we discussed current events and politics
and best practices of education and just like
our personal lives. I loved being a teacher and
a thinker and an innovator and like someone who
others can count on. And I gave most of me to
like my students and that job and the teacher
I was becoming and the rest of it to like my
family and my friends, you know, but I still
felt even though I was giving so much, I felt
alive. Like that made me feel alive. But you
love teaching, right? Can you tell us why? I
did. I left teaching. It was, again, trench foot.
A lot of little cuts and deep cuts. I loved it.
I gave it my all. But then 2020 hit and things
changed in education. There were a lot more animosity
towards educators, a lot more. Politics became
a huge part of it, a part of teaching. You had
to constantly kind of like walk on eggshells.
You had to constantly watch what you say. Not
that I wouldn't, like I'm an educator. People
stop trusting educators, right? Like a lot of
people. I mean, not everybody, obviously, but
that like distrust, you know, I have several
degrees. I, you know, won awards for teaching
and it just became kind of like, why do I have
to prove my expertise, my professionalism? to
people who don't know what they're doing, but
they heard something, they read something, and
now they have to come into my classroom and tell
me how to do my job. So that was part of it.
You know, there was a lot of pressure put on
teachers post -pandemic or like, you know, in
the midst of it to like do certain things. Just
responsibilities kept piling on. I was already
very extra as a teacher. Like I already did so,
so, so much. Yeah, believe it or not, you know,
I was not just a teacher like I was a mentor
for new teachers. I was the department chair
for the English department. I was an instructional
leader in my building. I wore a lot of hats.
And then when you also put, you know, outside
pressure and politics and, you know, extra responsibilities
that you never had pre -pandemic, you know, when
you have to teach. to the kids in front of you
and to the kids on a computer screen at the same
time, it really started like to, I started to
crumble little by little, little by little. I
think I just burned out. Like, I think it no
longer became my passion because of all of these
outside influences. And I, listen, like. I always
say if I can go back to teaching and be just
with the kids and just do that job and like just
analyze literature like I would do it. It's heartbreaking
to leave something that you love so deeply and
you care about so deeply and you're so good at,
too, you know. And and, you know, and at the
same time, like I also left because my own kids
needed me, you know, and I felt like I was missing
a lot of there. growing up because I devoted
so much to my students. And at some point, it
just like the benefits did not outweigh the costs
of being a teacher. So I quit teaching. I started
working from home. The life that had once been
very animated for me completely disappeared.
And like I became, I think the best way to describe
it, like a functional zombie, essentially. Like
I just it was like my life became almost like
robotic at that point. God. You know, women are
just rewarded for being dependable and holding
themselves together, even at this great cost
that you're describing, right? This moral injury,
actually. That's the actual word for it. Wait,
moral injury? That is the word for it. I've never
heard that. That's a beautifully sad term. Beautifully
sad. It's when you are forced to do the wrong
thing that you know. in your heart of hearts
is the wrong thing because an external force
is compelling you. And I think people who are
professionals and are good at their jobs, the
people that we need desperately to be the teachers
and like that, it's hard to stand. for that.
That's like the trench foot, right? Like in your
career, like you're just like marinating in this
bad environment and it dehumanizes you because
you're doing something you know is not in the
benefit of your kids. Diana, I have to say, like,
I knew this, but when you say it like this, it's
just... stunningly similar. Like I, I don't think
you may have ever said it to me in this way.
I mean, I read your piece, but when you said
it like in this way, it was just like, oh my
God, it's like parallel paths because I wanted
to be a pediatrician since the moment I knew
I wanted to be a doctor. And I love, love taking
care of kids. You know, they're so resilient.
They're graceful. They're hilarious. They're
so adaptive and they're just such a positive
force as, as, as like a pediatrician. That was
like the thing that held me to the profession.
Right. And when you're training to be a doctor
and you trained for a much longer than maybe
you needed to, to be the teacher you want it
to be. Right. Like you're devoting like a decade
or so of your life. And these are like. your
hallmark years, your 20s, some of your 30s. I
mean, these are key years that you're essentially
saying, I'm going to do something that's going
to take me away from all the other sort of like
fun things you could be doing in your 20s, right?
Of course. And I think when you have that, it's
deeply wrapped in your identity. And I hear that
from you too, like the way teaching was for you.
I had like you don't and sorry to interrupt,
but like when I was planning on leaving, when
I finally was like, OK, I'm going to leave, I
thought to myself, but who will I be? Like, I
am a teacher. Like, who am I? What is going to
be right? Like, what is going to become of me?
Like when people ask me, like, oh, what do you
do for a living? What am I going to say? And
like, it's such a weird thing to think about.
But like, it's it was such a huge part of who
I am. And then it just no longer, you know, and
it's just gone. And you. But you will always
be a teacher. I stumble a lot when I say pediatrician
still because I don't know if I can say that
anymore. But one of the people that I worked
with said, Anusha, you're a pediatrician. Like,
that's, like, literally where every part of me
comes from. That's your training. But, like,
it might no longer be your identity, though.
You know? Like, that's what it is. So, yeah.
Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. So, I had some really
complicated pregnancy. And after my son, it became
completely unsustainable. I would give and give
to my work. I thought of this as a calling. And
it just wasn't enough. I couldn't meet a good
mom, a good wife, a good doctor all at the same
time. And the thing is, like, it never crossed
my mind to ask, like, amongst these other things
that I was, like, was I being good to me? Of
course not. We don't ask ourselves that. Yeah.
And I don't mean it in like this like, oh, poor
little me kind of way. And I just feel like I
always have to caveat. that sadness you know
like that's oh oh look at that because I actually
wrote about that I said every time a woman wants
to talk about sadness right like or how she's
feeling or whatever else like there's always
got to be a disclaimer like I know that you do
this you know that I do this we all do this like
of course I love my kids of course I'm grateful
for the life right and then only then after you
say like the quote -unquote societal like socially
acceptable things you're supposed to say as a
mom, right? Like, I love my kids. I love this.
I love that. Then you could only whisper the
truth, which is, but I'm still sad, you know?
Right, right. You just, you're always issuing
an apology for feeling your feelings. Always,
right? And I think, you know, anyway, it was
impossible to sustain that life. And the key
and the moral injury description that you described
really fell for me because honestly, I felt like
this cog in a machine. I was completely disposable.
I too was very, I'm very good. And I was like,
why am I feeling this way? So then I left clinical
medicine. I was completely adrift. Like you said,
I was relieved. How long ago was this? How long
ago did you leave? Like eight years ago. Oh,
wow. Okay. Right before the pandemic. Right before
the pandemic. Okay. Yeah. So Yeah. Like I was
so relieved, but I was so sad. And at the same
time, I was like starting to be a mom. I was
supposed to be happy and I was sometimes. And
it was just a really complicated moment. Yeah,
of course. Yeah. It's you're you're leaving something
you love so deeply for your children. Like, I
mean, how is that not complicated? I feel like
I. I died, quote unquote, before I left teaching.
And that was probably part of the, you know,
another reason that I left. The light, you know,
went out, essentially. In an attempt to, like,
revive myself, I threw myself, as you know this,
because that is how we met. I threw myself headfirst
into local politics, right? Headfirst is probably
a very apt. description. You never do things
halfway. No, no, I do not. I just dive deeply,
deeply in because I figured, hey, you know, what's
the worst that could happen? And by the way,
a lot of never, never, never say that. But you
know what's funny? I do think that I say, what
is the worst that could happen? And then I go
through. the possibilities of the worst things
that could happen. And if I am okay with those
things happening, then I will go full. in kind
of like with this podcast, to be honest, like
what is the worst thing that could happen with
this podcast if I'm OK with the consequences
that I'm jumping full in? Look at us. We're doing
it. So I guess we're OK with whatever comes with
it, you know. But anyway, like I throw myself
in local politics where I'm organizing campaigns
and I'm running for school board and we're fighting
for the kids. Right. We're fighting a lot for
LGBTQ kids and brown kids and black kids. Right.
Like we are there and I'm suffering. relentless
attacks on my character, on my very soul. But
listen, as a woman, you know, I'm smiling. I'm
taking pictures because I did what you're supposed
to do when I'm campaigning, right? I brush it
off. I move on. Especially during campaigning,
right? You can't even, you can't even say. Especially
during campaigning. Especially a woman campaigning.
She can never be without a smile, right? Like
that's what you have to do. It's not true for
men, I think, in political office, clearly. Not
yeah, not as much, not as much as it is for women,
you know. So, yeah. So like because, you know,
women are expected to be better. Like you're
like a man could just be very mediocre in politics,
but women is supposed to be like perfection,
you know. And so, you know, I I am being attacked
all the time. God forbid I decided to run for
school board as a teacher, as a professional,
you know, whatever. And I just kept smiling through
all the attacks and said, don't let it get to
you. And spoiler alert, it gets to you. It really,
really fucking gets to you, you know. And listen,
also spoiler alert, it didn't work. It did not
revive me. I was not at all revived. And in fact,
I was now dead, but also bruised all over. So
that was just, I mean. You know, I dealt with
the consequences. I knew what the worst that
could happen. And I wouldn't say the worst happened,
but a lot of bad things happened during that.
That is an understatement. I mean, like you said,
that's... When we met and like truly an insane
time, it was smack in the middle of the pandemic.
And I feel like that moment totally, totally
divested us of that little white lie of, you
know, women can have it all. Right. Talk about
that. And, you know, in my piece, like March
2020, something happened, something inside of
me collapsed loudly. and quietly all the same
time. I can't explain it now any more than I
could then, but it was really crushing. Like
I said earlier, right? The light went out, fire
extinguished. I gave my all and then there was
just truly nothing left to give. And, you know,
being dead inside is kind of, you know, in that
way is... is strange because you still have to
live like i said earlier right you still have
to do living people things you have to go to
work you have to raise your kids you show up
where you're supposed to show up you're still
a mom you know a friend a daughter like you wear
all these other hats you know but the person
who wants more me right the the curious one the
one that chases ideas and the one that feels
wonder like that person is just just gone like
that person has been replaced by numbness and
nothingness, just like a dredge foot. And a zombie.
You said a zombie, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Making the motions. You know, during the pandemic,
women, I think, disproportionately had to keep
life and family all together. Like this was what
was passed to us. And I had, I have. had then
a very supportive partner, but like that mental
load just like fell on my head. I don't know
what else to say other than that. You know, my
kid needed speech and occupational therapy when
the shutdown was happening. And I had to do that,
too. I mean, I'm not not an educator. I think.
The pandemic was really, as you said, like it
took it took that like veneer off. But for me,
actually, I like very clearly remember the moment
the Dobbs decision happened, like from like a
very deeply personal and life defining tragedy.
that I can't really do justice in this conversation,
but I felt the regression of that moment. It
like hit me. I really felt like I was underwater.
It is slightly in pain. It feels that felt then
not so much now, but felt then bizarre to try
to explain to people that a Supreme court decision
has like, has like wrecked me. You know what
I mean? Like I can't. come to school you know
i can't do work today because i'm wrecked by
a supreme court decision that sounds yeah that
sounds strange um but now now it doesn't now
it doesn't feel it's not yeah it's not and i
think uh a lot of people probably feel that and
the thing is at that moment it it felt like that
collective weight of all those decisions are
going to be thrown on who women right? Like women
are dying of sepsis during pregnancy, literally,
literally dying. And this medical regression,
it just, it haunts me because I think about all
those aspects of my professional identity and,
you know, looking at researching diseases that
we could absolutely prevent in this day and age.
It's on my mind. constantly, you know, as a doctor
and as a woman. And maybe it's because peds and
obstetrics are just so heavily women dominated.
It just felt like a professional and personal
slap in the face. That's what that moment felt
like for me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, we are
regressing. medically, politically. We're regressing
in education. We're regressing culturally. Productive
autonomy is being stripped away. Healthcare is
politicized. Public health systems collapse.
And what happens when that happens? Women, once
again, carry the burden of caregiving, right?
So the sadness we have already isn't just like
personal sadness a lot of the times. It's the
grief of realizing that the future you thought
you were moving toward actually might not be
coming. Like I really did think back before 2017
that we were like slowly making progress, you
know, and then the sadness of 2017 at all. And
you're like, oh, shit, like progress is not happening.
Yeah. And that's hard, right? Like you have this
personal sadness and then it's like, boom, something
collective happens that you really. understand.
And I think that's the ugly underbelly of it
all, right? Like you're supposed to be the selfless
mom, the selfless woman in a society that really
doesn't protect or care about women. And that
is just a profoundly vulnerable place to be.
Right. And then, you know, I'm constantly reminding
myself, like, I am lucky. I am privileged, right?
Other people have real problems. I should be
grateful we should be grateful but at the same
time like I wrote like being grateful or grateful
and sad coexist there are no rules to feelings
unless we create them which we often do we create
rules for our feelings so we push the sadness
down we shove it deep deep deep inside we cover
it with band -aids right Band -Aids, girls nights,
vacations, new clothes, good food, margarita
and taco nights, you know, like and we don't
like it's all like, you know, Band -Aids. And
we don't realize until it's too late that when
we push enough sadness down for long enough,
something inside of us eventually dies. And,
you know, we are women. Women are professional
maskers. And sometimes we mask our sadness so
well that we even fool ourselves into believing
that it is gone. But it doesn't disappear. It's
not gone. It just sits there, you know, dormant,
gnawing at you. Yeah. Right. Like, I don't mean
to say like it's like that. Well, yes, it is.
Yeah. You know, it's gnawing in like that. Oh,
that just like so that. thread post, it said,
there's a hopelessness that sort of has been
buried in our backyard of our minds for years.
And it feels like the dog just dug it up, so
to speak. Like the women mourn constantly, you
know, like we're always in mourning of some sort.
Like we're mourning our youth. We mourn our independence.
The dreams we quietly let go for the sake of
whatever, whether it's career or family or both,
you know, we mourn the loss of the world around
us. And now, like, it feels like we're all mourning
in a way that also connects us, you know. Right,
right. And because the world has just stopped,
has stopped just asking for women to conceal
themselves. And it's now actively starting to
take. things away. And I think what you're speaking
to is this private sadness transforming into
a collective grief because it really does feel
like we're all screaming into the same void,
right? And like, holy fuck, that void, it just
feels so close. Like, just like, it's like right
here. You know, it's just like breathing down
your neck. Do you by any chance remember or did
you ever watch the movie Garden State? Yes. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have. Do you remember that
they would like, they stood, I just, when you
were saying this, I just remembered like they
stood at the edge of this like abyss and just
like screamed into it. Do you remember that?
I love that movie so much. It came out when I
was in college and I was like, wow, like, or
maybe like right after college, it felt so like.
deeply personal yeah um but yeah like remember
that right like they stood there and they screamed
and like i literally want to do that sometimes
i want to go find a big abyss you know and just
scream into it because that feels that would
feel good maybe we should do that this weekend
do you want to go somewhere anyway so sorry to
derail but You know, we're talking about all
these feelings, right? You know, we're all in
our feelings. But like, so what does all of this
have to do with this queer hockey show about
men? This queer hockey show about men. Wow. Yeah.
Tell me, what does this have to do with a queer
hockey show about men? Anusha, I'm glad you asked.
I call it a resurrection. Okay. Apparently. All
it took for me personally to resurrect me is
a queer romance hockey show and only six episodes
of it. Listen, it still makes me laugh because
when I say this out loud. It sounds slightly
unhinged. Yes. It sounds slightly unhinged. It
sounds like. But I get you. Like, right. Like
you get me and a lot of other women get me. I
know that because I've talked about this on threads
and in other mediums. But like, it does sound
funny. But, you know, it really isn't just about
hockey, obviously, and nor is it just about the
romance. It's about recognition, right? It is
about watching characters feel things with a
kind of urgency and honesty that many of us spent
years training ourselves out of, right? Desire,
uneasiness, tenderness, longing, the whole messy
spectrum of being human. Somewhere along the
way, many of us, especially women, have learned
to dull those edges in order to survive our lives.
We build walls and surround them with unapproachable
exteriors. And because we've recognized we must
become efficient, we must be responsible, capable,
and the deep feelings that we have just interfere
with all that. Like we're not allowed to like
have all these deep feelings, right? Like we
need to be numb in order to function in the everyday.
Yet what heated rivalry did, as great art often
does, is bypass the part of my brain that has
been carefully managing and dismissing my feelings
for years. It slipped past the armor. past the
cold walls I've built. And it reminded me what
intensity feels like, what curiosity feels like.
It reminded me what it feels like to care about
something enough to pull it apart, to analyze
it, to talk about it for hours with other people
who felt it too, right? And like... That's what
I used to do. Right. Like for me, that that's
what came back first. Right. Like curiosity would
define me as a teacher, a thinker, a person who
chase ideas for the sheer joy of chasing them.
Like that's part of the reason I love teaching
is because I got to come to the classroom and
take a book and like analyze it with the students
and hear their perspective. And just it was so
joyful back then. But it wasn't. like just curiosity,
right? It was joy. Like I said, the kind of joy
that I had forgotten existed or could exist in
adulthood, right? The simple joy of watching
two people fall in love. And when you have been
numb for years, joy, especially this kind of
radical joy, feels like a shock to the system,
right? It's a defibrillator, heated rivalry.
unlocked emotions I had buried somewhere along
the way to protect myself in order to keep things
manageable, as I said. So that's how it relates,
Anusha. That's how it relates. This is like number
two or three medical analogies on this one episode.
I'm loving all of it. But I mean, seriously.
I did it for you. That's just a really powerful.
I mean, that is really moving. I'm just like.
Processing what you said, because for me, I think
it does the thing that it does for Shane and
Ilya. It bears witness to the loss they've been
carrying, the loss we've been carrying. It doesn't
fix it. It doesn't remove the stakes. They're
all there. External factors in heated rivalry
are still there at the end of episode six. Nothing,
I shouldn't say nothing has changed. one thing
has changed. And that one thing is still a personal
story. It's Scott. The systems haven't changed.
Someone is confronting the system. I'm getting
goosebumps thinking of that. But, you know, but
it still exists. The stakes exist. The loss exists.
At the same time, this beautiful love story is
like unfolding in front of us, right? And it,
for me, struck this really deep chord. I call
it like a fundamental ache because your words
were so beautiful. You talked about radical joy
and resuscitation. And I'm like, what is the
word for it? And maybe there's a Russian word
for it. I look for a Tamil word for it. I couldn't
find it. You know, like there's some words that
just don't translate. Right. Yes. A lot of those.
Yeah. Yeah. I bet you there's a German word for
it because there's a German word for any of these
things. That's my husband. I call it a fundamental
ache because I don't think the sadness or joy
can be separated from each other. I was thinking
of things that evoked it for me. I'm thinking
of my little girl, you know, telling me how she
wants to be an astronaut. And I'm wondering,
you know, like what her future is going to look
like. And I'm encouraging her to go for her dreams
because, of course, that's what moms do. Of course.
Yeah. And then I thought of another. another
kind of like memory, because there's a song that
I listened to in Tamil, my other language. And
it's like, it's the idea of it is it's, you're
remembering your mom sing you a lullaby when
you were a baby and you were sleeping on her
lap, but you're remembering it as an adult. Like,
that's the feeling, right? That's the feeling.
It's that the joy is right next to the sadness.
And it's just so layered and complicated. And
the feeling wouldn't be the same if those didn't
exist so close to each other. And when I read
that post, I read all of the comments on that.
And so many of them. also gave examples about
it. And it's really the same feeling from different
places. So one person said the show wants her
to feel hopeful, but wanting that feels unbearable
because feeling hopeful seems unreasonable. I
was like, wow. That's so true, especially right
now. Right, right. That's the ache. Another person
said she experienced a deep depression after
the initial high, and it felt like all the loneliness
and expectations of the world were flooding in.
Another said that she holds her, this is beautiful
too, nuclear winter rage alongside the small
uncertain happiness. I mean, these are just beautiful
words, right? so beautiful. And we could feel
them all. Yes, we can feel them all. And they're
not exactly the same feeling. There's their versions,
I think, of the same thing that has been buried
and suppressed for so long. The show dug it up
like a dog. dug up a bone in the backyard and
it's out and now it's complicated and it hurts
in that way. Rewarming like something dead inside
of you. It hurts because all of it, the blood
flow is just like all coming back. I know what
you want to say right now. I know the word on
the tip of your tongue. Just say it. Just say,
say it. Like. Like trench foot. I saw it in your
eyes. It cracks something open for many, many,
many of us. And that is what's so strange and
beautiful about art. You don't know. You don't
always know how it will reach you, what will
reach you or when. Sometimes it's a novel. Sometimes
it's a song, a line of dialogue that lands in
exactly the place you forgot you existed. And
sometimes, apparently, again, a queer hockey
romance that moves you so, so deeply. pulls you
out of the hole that you've been in, that you've
dug yourself in, that you've buried yourself
in and reminds you that curiosity and joy and
wonder weren't gone forever, that they were still
there. It's just they were like all waiting to
come alive with something, something, you know,
that that revived all of that. And, you know,
it was for me personally. Right. It was heated
rivalry. I am getting. oddly teary right now
i don't know why i could see it i could see your
face because it's it's it's you know ate me It's
achy and it's and it's and it's hard to explain.
Like people have tried many, many times. You
know, women have tried to write about this and
everyone has, you know, and it's just it's really
difficult to explain exactly which part of us.
And because probably because it's a little bit
different for everyone, like you said, you know,
like a little bit different for you. It's different
for me. Right. Like we both love the show so
much, but we do get like different feelings from
it, you know, different, but the same. And I
think for women. you know, this idea that we're
in our feelings is usually a very dismissive
comment, right? Like our emotional responses
are excessive, irrational, hysterical, all of
those things. Well, they're treated as such.
They're treated that way. They're treated as
such, yes. But you know what? Yeah, we're all,
women as a collective and these two women, we're
in our feelings right now because our feelings
are actually... They are the appropriate response
when you're carrying a world that seeks to crush
you for years in concealment at high stakes.
We can feel the pain and joy of Shane and Ilya
choosing each other. Because we understand what
that costs them. And we understand that in a
fundamental way. So for me, heated rivalry isn't
just joy as an antidote to grief. It's gave us
a place where the grief and the joy could finally
be in the same room. And I think after years
of keeping those things impossibly separated.
in our minds, my mind, I think that's actually
what I needed. I think that's what a lot of us
needed because it's very clear the response to
the show has been that we all needed something
like this. And now it's finally been given to
us. Yeah. Okay, Anusha. We are definitely in
our feelings. And I think women need to talk
more about their feelings and being in their
feelings and normalize everything that we feel
all the time. I know it's time for our moment
of sunshine. And I actually want to dedicate
my moment of sunshine to a listener who sent
me her story. And I want to read it, if you don't
mind. This woman sent me a private message and
she did give me permission, obviously, to share
this. And she said it's been really interesting
for her and her wife because this was a similar
start to our relationship around the same time.
She says we weren't rivals or anything, but until
2010, 2015 -ish. being out was just a whole different
experience. The term situationships didn't really
even exist at the time when we got together in
2007, but that's exactly what it was. Neither
of us were totally honest about our sexualities,
much less out. We secretly dated under the guise
of being best friends for five years before we
started slowly letting people know. And even
then, we didn't even admit how long we've been
together for another few years after that. We
pretended like our feelings were new. She says,
I identified with Shane's complicated plan for
charity to lead to a friendship, to lead to a
relationship so much because after five years
or so, I laid out the groundwork with my close
friends and family of like, I think I might be
in love with her or I think this might be more
than a friendship or I can see a future here.
Literally years later, when we got married, I
think we started being honest about just how
long we've been together. And it's still hard
to explain to people why we were so secretive.
for so long. This is one of the first times,
she says, I've seen myself and my relationship
represented in media in such a loving and caring
way that focus on the ultimate joy to be found
rather than all the bad that could and frequently
does happen. That's amazing. That's a beautiful
share. I know. What about you? What is your moment?
Did you go read to a thousand cats again? No,
I didn't double the cats. I actually want to
dedicate. my moment of sunshine to the fandom.
In general, we opened with this song by Elisa,
and the entire premise of our episode was on
someone's really beautifully worded, metaphoric
thread with the most beautiful responses, all
of which was trying to capture this feeling we
were collectively having. I mean, so this is
to the creators and the creatives and all the
people in the fandom who are sharing what their
feelings are. And I love that. Yeah, it's so
much joy to have listeners and just people on
threads, like constantly engaging and constantly
creating and just like keeping us entertained,
you know? It's like, I would say, like medicine,
perhaps. Like medicine. Like medicine. So Anusha
and I have a really busy time coming up, especially
for Anusha. So we are going to take a break for
a week. We will not have a new episode. Just
one week. We're not going to have a new episode
next week on the 23rd. And instead, we will see
you all on the 30th. So subscribe now. you get
your podcasts and if you want to say hi to the
girls in the crease find us on instagram facebook
and threads at everyone deserves sunshine or
email us at everyone deserves sunshine at gmail
.com new episodes drop mondays but not next monday
the 30th see you then