Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana.
And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease.
And today, we're talking about something that
runs through the heart of heated rivalry, but
doesn't always get the spotlight. It deserves,
much like women. I love you. Allyship. We've
spent episodes analyzing music and intimacy and
masculinity. But what about Shane and Ilya's
love story and Kip and Scott's love story? It
doesn't happen without the women in their lives.
Nope. Nope. So this very special episode on International
Women's Day and during Women's History Month
is dedicated to Svetlana, Rose, Elena, and all
the women in the heated rivalry world moving
the plot forward. Moving the plot forward. And
to all the women listening to our show, analyzing
our show. And to all the women in our lives,
happy International Women's Day. And may you
always be treated like the goddesses that you
are. So is that to me, Diana? Of course, my love.
It's to you as well. Happy International Women's
Day, Anusha. And same to you. And you are a goddess.
And with that, this is our Episode 9, Allyship.
Joining us today is Maxine. She is a thread.
Thrend, is that what we say now on Threads? She's
also an essayist and has written several essays
about heated rivalry. We have shared her essays
on music after we did our music episode, which
was excellent. And so we're so excited to have
you here, Maxine. Welcome to the show. Welcome,
Maxine. Thank you so much. Yes, I'm so excited
to be here. Thank you for joining us on a Friday
evening, no less, after a long day. Yes, I'm
super excited to chat with you all. So we always
ask everyone their origin story. by which I mean
they're heated Bible re -origin stories. So do
tell. Yes. So I was introduced through the show.
So the show was released on the 28th and I watched
it on Saturday the 29th. So from the very beginning,
I'm someone who absolutely loves being there
when the zeitgeist is being created. So I was
super happy to, you know, be there from the very
beginning. Watched the first two episodes and
then read the first book before episode three.
I'm definitely a romance girly like all these.
books behind me are all romance novels that are
there and have many more. you know, piles around
my apartment. I also just love sports romance
in general. So like I'm a Duke alum. And so really,
and some of my close friends played professional
sports and coach in professional sports now.
So I've always been a sports girl. I also am
absolutely obsessed with adaptation. So I'm definitely
a person who I don't need much convincing. Like
if I see it and I'm like, hey, let me check it
out. Let me see. And it was only two episodes.
So I was like, okay, let me just see these two.
And then if I'm interested. I'll keep going.
And again, I like being there from the very beginning.
And I know there will be a lot of people for
season two who will be doing that with us. I
wanted to share something that is probably going
to be very familiar to you. You talk about sort
of the sort of like exasperated way of like explaining,
demystifying why heated rivalry is popular. And
you're like, hello. I really like this part of
what you wrote. You said, we've always known.
We know what to read. We know what to write.
We know why we return to romance again and again.
We fight for more access for non -cis, white,
hetero women authors. We champion marginalized
stories and voices. It is no surprise that this
queer story is being shepherded by women, being
watched and rewatched and analyzed and adored
by women. And you know why heated rivalry is
popular? It's the genre. It's us. First of all,
I share your exasperation. I'm like, yeah, why
would this not be popular? There's no mystery
in it. But I'm so glad that you're working to
demystify it because I feel like this conversation
comes about like, why do people like this so
much? And you're like, women especially, right?
Like, and it's always like, yeah, we've always
liked this. You just didn't care to listen. And
I just thought, though, the framing that you
did about the stories that we fight to see and
why we... love as women this genre of queer stories
I loved that framing and I thought that worked
perfectly as a you know like an intro to the
topic at hand which is allyship you know yes
so tell us tell us about like that what that
element meant to you sure so it was massive to
me I think We were really excited about, you
know, the primary couple that we have there.
And then also, you know, the secondary couple
that we have in Scott and Kip. But I think we
know just based on these six episodes that. we
would not have gotten to the end that we did
without the women that are in the show, right?
The women are playing a really critical role.
In some cases, they are externalizing internal
dialogue for us. So things that we may have been
able to read about in the book, you know, a conversation
allows those things to come out. But also the
women that we got in particular, right? The level
of confidence, the level of self -assuredness,
right? The women were not a space where like
they were. figuring themselves out and trying
to do something else. They were absolutely serving
the broader story that was being told. in a way
that did not make them feel less compelling,
right? In a way that made us want to know more
about them, right? It's like, I want to know,
you know, how are you so confident, you know,
to be able to navigate, you know, for Svetlana,
the relationship with Ilya for all of this time,
you know, like, I want to know what's going on
with Kip and Elena and how they met and how they
became, you know, day one friends, you know,
and I want to know about what's going on with
Maria, you know, Kiki and in the back, I want
to know, you know, what's happening with Rose,
you know, in her career. And so it's a really
testament to, you know, the source material,
of course. So Rachel, you know, writing these
women, but also, you know, Jacob Tierney coming
in and saying, I actually want to strengthen
them even more. I want to flesh things out. I
want to get really, really, really strong women
in these roles to help us understand that, you
know, these men are navigating their lives, but
they need help. They're still men. Because they're
still men. At the end of the day, they are still
men. They still need help, you know? And so that
part felt really real. And the women just felt
really real. They felt like strong women that
we know versus like another way of writing them
where they could have helped, but they could
have also felt a bit hopeless themselves. And
they definitely didn't, you know, in what we
got. There's something so meta because in your
essay, you said it's not a shock that women shepherded
the show in. And in the show, the women are shepherding
the men into these really big realizations, right?
I just think that's such an interesting parallel.
I mean, the show, as you said, like... the women
are not the main story right like obviously they're
not but they're like essential right they're
providing like cover and safety and they like
challenge the men to like be truthful and honest
with themselves like the show flips this like
usual script right like they're not victims in
the story as you'd see in a lot of like other
queer you know stories and narratives like they
protect relationships even when the men can't
who was who was really compelling or who did
you feel like you connected with you know I connected
with all of them and in different ways but I
think for me it's absolutely Svetlana I think
um mainly because like for me she's who I was
or like a version of who I was like 10 years
ago So 10 years ago, my friends were playing
in the league. Right. So, you know, in terms
of like literal conversations I was having with
them, you know, about the sport that they were
playing, about who they were playing against.
So for me, I'm like, I've never seen that version
of a woman as a friend of an athlete before.
That's very cool. Not have it feel like, you
know, she's hanging on. you know or or she's
there because she needs to be seen with everybody
else like she isn't we don't see spelana at games
we don't see her doing you know what you would
usually see for a friend of an athlete and she's
she's absolutely there she's in her circle right
when we think about where we see her connecting
with Ilya all the time it's like in his home
it's in enclosed spaces right where they're with
each other or that she's going to save him you
know in in terms of like episode two where she's
pulling him away you know from from being berated
while he's dissociating you know so for me I
think it's it's definitely Svetlana and and Jacob
Tierney's choice to flesh her out way more and
add so much to her in terms of that strength
the length of their friendship And so making
that something that he's had for a really long
time and that she understands him. Something
that I really like to point out is like the same
amount of time that we see pass for Ilya and
Shane, we see pass for Ilya and Svetlana, right?
Like they are friends for that same amount of
time, right? And if we're like, whoa, that's
a long time, you know, for Shane, it's a long
time too, you know, for Svetlana. And they've
been friends before that. So, you know, thinking
about the time, how much she knows about him.
the depth of care, and then just thinking about,
you know, Ksenia coming into the role and just
smashing it, you know, and the fact that we never
hear her speak English in the whole show, you
know, and for us to say that she's a character
that we've fallen in love with, she's able to
see through the trauma and see through the, you
know, CPTSD that he's dealing with to say, like,
I know who you are. you know, and like figure
this out. I know what you're capable of, both
in terms of hockey, but also in terms of your
life, right? And I understand and I know my role,
so you don't have to worry about where I'm going.
I also think their relationship, you know, still
having sex as a component of it, but them not
being in, you know, a formal relationship is
massive in terms of representation. And helping
people to confront feelings that they have about
casual sex and what that means and how women
feel about casual sex. So the fact that we meet
her and pretty instantly she's like, I don't
really care. Like, whatever. I'm here to do this.
She's like, you know me. Yeah. Right. It's like,
I don't really care about that. And we hear her
say that. Right. We're, you know, we're. You
know, I was like, oh, are you are you worried?
She's like, I'm not. I'm not worried. You know,
like that's not what I'm here for. And she's
never a woman who's pining after him. Right.
She's like, I know. I know who you are. I know
who you like. I know what you need. And I know
you need to figure stuff out. And so I'm going
to point you in the right direction and let you
know that I'm not going anywhere. And so I just
think her presence there is so important. Thinking
about how she sees the relationship, you know,
you see those in those montages, her little side
glances, like, you know, she is tracking their
relationship. He thinks he's being so subtle,
but she's able to understand, like, where he
is. It's made very explicit in the scene in Russia
during the funeral. She knows that he likes men,
women, both, as he says. I just love that you
only hear that at the very end, though. But she's
laid the groundwork for that understanding the
whole time. That scene in the hotel room where
they're watching and he's... That is one of my
favorite scenes. I love that scene. Yeah, I love
that scene so much. You could tell they're childhood
friends, you know, because they're talking in
Russian. And she's like, I'd love to see you
on a line with him. He's like, well, why would
I be on a line with him? We play the same position.
She's like, you can be his wing. I'm probably
butchering all of these hockey things. She's
like, me? You want me? You would want me to be
like his, you know. let him have the center and
me be like the side. And she's like, yeah, the
people want, and you could tell like every part
of that. interaction shows the depth of her knowledge
of something that is so important to him um that
is like his fundamental like basis um that she
meets him where he's at and she kind of is like
you know he's gorgeous right like she knows that
he knows whether or not whether or not she knows
he's jane you know i don't know but she knows
that you know ilia is not immune to the charms
of other men And then when they fight, they're
like two little puppies, you know? Yeah, it's
so sweet. It's very sweet. We said she knows
him. She's the only person in his life who truly
knows him from the moment, right? Like the only
one in his life. So she knows whether or not
she knows Shane. I think she does because remember,
and I think it was episode two when he's sitting
and watching him do yoga, right? Maybe four,
four, four, four. Yeah, four, right? She knows.
She's like, what are you watching? He's like,
I'm so bored. She goes, mm -hmm. Like, oh, it's
right. right before that car conversation. So
she's like constantly trying to like pick. So
the first time she talks about Shane in particular
is in the bathroom in episode two, right? And
so she's talking about him for hockey reasons,
right? So Yacht has to like go through, they
have to go through Hollander and the metros,
right? To be able to get to the cup. So that's
the first time. Second time she talks about Shane
is exactly what you mentioned when he is watching
that little feature on the cottage and she's
talking about how gorgeous he is. And then the
third time, the time that we just talked about
in EDS bedroom, she's talking about both. Right.
So she so by the third time, she's already starting
to do both of that because she says like he's
gorgeous and his hands. Right. So she's talking
about both things. Yeah. Right. And then that
goes directly into. You know, them being in the
limo and her doing that. And also the fact that
she says Jane, like she sees that name instantly,
right? It takes her literally five seconds for
the name to show up. And she already knows that.
That's before they really do anything. That's
not even the end of episode one where she's saying
Jane, right? And then the next time we hear her
say that. It's like eight years later. And so
it is really important for us to like, to pay
attention to that. She finds that information
out super early before, you know, Ilya goes to
Shane's apartment. Any of that happens, she already
knows the name, right? Even if it's a name that's
like, whatever, I don't have to pay attention
to. It's a name she knows, right? At least for
it to be on the phone. And then it keeps coming
back, right? And she's figuring out when it's
time for her to say it, right? When is it time
for me to deploy the fact that I know this, you
know, the fact that I've been paying attention.
And so I love that. I love that the passage of
time is not just with Shane. For Ilya, it's also
with Svetlana, right? And I also love that in
terms of, and I don't know if Rachel did this
on purpose, but I have to think part of it is,
like, for Ilya, there's Shane and Svetlana, right?
And for Shane, there's Rose and Rosanoff, right?
And so I don't think that that's an accident,
you know, in terms of... What's happening, the
names, the people that they're constantly thinking
about, the people that know things about them.
Given how very few people actually know Jane
and Lily's name, Hayden being an exception. Like,
I wonder if it's like subliminally he trusts.
Svetlana, even before, you know, he gets really
deep in with Shane, he knows that, you know,
A, she's safe. She's not going to get jealous
of Jane. And B, like, you know, he's always hiding
his phone. But with her, I mean, like. It was
like, what? Right there. It was like immediately.
She walks in, boom, phone, you know? It's like,
whoa, you know? And so I think that's an excellent
way, you know, to show us that like his guard
is down around her, right? And also that she's
extremely observant, right? Because it's not
like, oh, the phone's on the table. She's looking
down at the, you know, they didn't do it like
that, you know, in terms of like really walking
it through. It's like something that's happening
very fast, but you see. He knows he's surprised
by her being there, but it's not like, oh my
God, I hate you. It's like, okay, now we're transitioning
into something else, right? So his guard was
immediately down, realizing that it's her who
surprised him in the home, right? And then her,
she's paying attention, right? She's always just
clocking, like whatever's going on. She's always
paying attention. She's always paying attention,
right? I think she's one of the more complex
allies in the show because of her relationship
with, because again. even the dad says like they've
known each other since they were kids right so
like they're constantly following each other
so one of the most complicated because she knows
him the longest she knows exactly who he is she
also gives them sex right like a physical affection
yes and not just the physical sex affection and
sex but also like that comfort you know she's
he's he lies on her lap she like pets him like
there's a lot of like physical affection that
he doesn't get from anywhere like the hugging
the the softness that she gives them and so she's
the person who does that for him so i think she's
she's very complex whereas rose i think and i
think it's okay if we move to the next yeah like
rose is like to me, like, is more of like a,
I don't know if she's, she's like intentional.
She becomes an intentional ally. I don't think,
I don't think Svetlana knew that she was going
to be an ally. Like, I don't think when they
were kids, like, she realized that, right? But
Rose, like, gets it. No, but you know what? Can
I make one point about Svetlana? I mean, we don't
explore this at all because she's Ilya's friend.
You know, there are three of them were friends
since childhood. Ilya, Svetlana, and... Sasha.
Sasha, right? And I wonder what their relationship,
you know, because she gives them space. She's
like, I let you boys catch up. She knows. She
knows exactly what that's about, right? And I'm
always like, so she was part of this like triad
where, you know. She provides cover for him too.
I was like, she provides cover for Sasha as well,
right? She understands. you know, the nonsense
within, you know? And so, yeah, it's, it's the
three of them. Absolutely. Yeah. So what, what
reminded me is like, you're like, I don't think
she intended to be an ally, which I think is
true, but she found herself with these two boys
who are a little bit lost, right? Like both of
them. We don't know. I mean, she's in, he's in
Paris now or, you know, right. So he's having,
he's living the life. Like, but you're okay.
You're right. I'll take that. I'll take that.
But Rose also, I feel like, right, she didn't
intend to do this in some ways. But also kind
of like she's found herself clearly in these
situations through like most of her life too,
right? Like being in theater school, right? She's
like, oh, 80 % of my boyfriends were gay. Join
the club. Join the club. Join the club. But I...
I love her so much because she understands Shane
before he even is, you know, understands himself.
And she creates space for him to like admit that
to himself. She models graceful exit allyship.
Like she gives him the opportunity to exit the
relationship with his dignity instead of being
like, oh my God, you're gay. Like this is over.
Like you wasted my time, you know, whatever else.
Like she's like, I. know you need this and I'm
going to give this space to you. So what are
your thoughts about Rose Maxine? Yeah. Yeah.
So for me, I think, you know, where Svetlana
is, you know, like I know who you are. You know,
Rose is like, I'm giving you space to figure
that out, right? And so when I think of who she
is, right, that's who she shows up to be, right?
That person where, you know, I will hold your
hand and, you know, go wherever we're going,
right? And so really, and that's what Shane needs,
right? It's just an opportunity to figure it
out. You know, have somebody who's there whenever
he's ready. And the push that he needs is just
that she's there. Right. It doesn't need to be
anything more than that. And I think that is
all he needed in terms of being able to, you
know, admit things to himself and to her, which
I love. And I think of, you know, how he meets
her. I always think of like entrances, how we
learn people's names, I think is massively important.
Something that I think about with Phil all the
time, I'm always paying attention to like the
first time we hear a name, the first time we
see a person, what's happening. And in the case
of Rose, she's already sitting. right she's already
living her life she's you know eating her fries
enjoying a vibe you know and it's shane that
stumbles into her right and that happens to sit
there and this woman is there right and so i
think and we just talked about where we see spelana
she's In the space. She's in his space, right?
She rolls up in there, right? That's not what
happens in the case of Shane, right? Shane is
trying to figure stuff out and he sits down wherever
and there she is, right? And so I love that that
is the introduction that we get for her, right?
That she is already existing, already doing her
thing. And it's a boom type of situation, you
know, like two things collide, right? He stumbles
into her. Literally, right? And that's how we
needed it to happen. Yeah. Because he's not the
type of person who he's going to go out and do,
even if he thought he was going to do that, Shane's
not doing that. Okay. So he literally was trying
to get away from it all. Exactly. Right. He was
not doing it. He was like, I'm going to go anywhere.
I don't know. No. And happened to sit down and
she's there. That's a woman who's already knows
herself. Right. Is already immensely confident.
Right. And is now and navigates that conversation
from small talk to big talk very quickly. Right.
It's like one second of like, hello. And the
next thing she's like, when I was eight, you
know what I mean? like get into it really fast,
which I love because I think Shane. If I'm thinking
about like me, you know, myself as somebody who's
neurodivergent and will go into deep conversations
very quickly, you know, I'm not surprised that,
you know, Shane is like, I have no idea how to
navigate. Like, well, what's the weather and
blah, blah, blah. And I don't know any of that.
But like, I can actually, even if it's awkward,
get into the real things, right? I can talk about
what's really happening in my life because it
seems like you're a safe person that I'm able
to communicate with. And so Rose's presence.
It's so necessary to just give him someone who
can pull things out of him, you know, a little
bit more to just asking questions and just sit
there. But he needs, you know, somebody who's
going to coax that out of him a little bit more
and give him space to talk about things that
we don't even hear him talk about with other
people. She brings up the fact that he's probably
one of the only Asian kids who would have been
playing hockey. Right. We don't hear that at
any other time besides with his mom. And, you
know, that's like a fundamental, pivotal thing.
Like you said, Shane just needs someone to move
the conversation, like just talk about. Your
deepest feelings right now with me. She's subtle,
but she doesn't let him stop the conversation.
Whereas Svetlana's approach, it's much more subtle.
But both do what they need to do for their...
they're friends. Like they, they provide the
sort of shepherding in your words, like that
their friend needs at that moment. Absolutely.
And he wants to be able to talk about all these
things. He wants to be like the, you know, hot
and horny guy that, that Ilya wants. Like he
wants, he wants to meet him here, right? Like
he needs someone to be like, we're doing this
now. You know, like you can't run away. Like
this is, this is happening. We're talking about
it right now. And so that conversation matches
that. Right. Where, you know, she asked about
that. Like, has it stopped being fun? Right.
Nobody's asking him that. Who's asking Shane
if he's actually had a good time playing hockey?
Everybody knows he loves hockey. Right. Assumes
he loves hockey. Is talking to him about it all
the time. But nobody's like, are you liking this
right now? You know, like, how is it going? You
know, how are you feeling? And so us just being
able to get that. I loved that because we wouldn't
really know Shane without that conversation he
has with Rose, right? We wouldn't know that he's
struggling with how to cope with the intensity
of hockey. We don't know how he's feeling really
about still being one of the only players of
color within the entire league. We don't really
know that. And she's like, I'm getting into it.
Like, let's get into it. I know you. We're talking.
We're getting to know one another. And this is
important, right? Like, you're a person, right?
You're not just an athlete. Rose absolutely does
it because Shane doesn't talk. No. So, you know,
like, if we don't get her talking, like, we wouldn't
hear any of that. I also, one of the things that
I really enjoy about Rose is she's so confident
and also curious and her, checks her, like, ego
out of the situation I'm talking about. specifically
you know the scene at the restaurant where he
essentially is coming out to her um and she's
like you know most of the dudes that i've been
with have a different reaction to me in bed and
you're like yeah girl okay so she knows she knows
like she knows what she's gonna inspire and and
and you would think oh like it could derail into
like you don't think I'm hot. Like that's your
problem, but it doesn't because, and nor would
I think that at that point, like knowing tyranny's
direction and style, like I knew it wouldn't
devolve in that, but I just thought it was such
a beautiful balance of like her knowing herself
as a person and still being an ally by removing
herself. from his like coming out story. You
know what I mean? It wasn't about her. It wasn't
about her. You know, she is, she's the conduit,
right? But it's not to say like, you're hurting
me by doing this. It's like, I'm seeing something
that I want to ask about. You know, it's like
really what it is. And so she's like, I just
want to clear things up. And also the piece of
it I loved is like, I don't think we can keep
trying, right? Like she recognizes like, this
isn't working. So we're going to stop doing it,
right? Like we're not going to keep. figuring
it out right so she's an advocate of herself
enough to be like you know maybe it was working
I don't really think so so we're going to stop
but also now this is completely your space right
this is your space to you know say or do um what
you want even if it's nothing right but it's
also like we're not going to keep pretending
to do a thing right like we're you know like
she's secure enough in herself and so I love
I love how she navigated that conversation um
and it makes us confront um you know both misogyny
and internalized misogyny with that right because
there's so many of us who I'm sure went into
that like oh my god she's gonna be mad you know
he's gonna freak out we don't know what's going
on and it's like nope I'm fine you know like
it was truly beautiful yeah it was truly beautiful
you know i think prior to that you know he keeps
bringing up that he loves talking to her and
i think that is important right because he loves
talking to her because she feels safe and understands
him you know when she gives him the space she
keeps saying you don't own you don't have to
no you don't you don't owe me anything like and
and that you could see his like nervous system
calm down because when she when he's like he
realizes oh shit like she knows And then he's
like, I'm going to have to talk about this. And
she's like, you really don't. You actually really
don't. You know? Yeah. He then does talk about
it a little bit because she gently, you know,
gently says like, can I ask you something? Like,
have you ever been with a man? And he's like,
yeah. And then he tells her all this stuff. And
she created that. And that is it. I mean, we
could talk all day long about. your best moment
there. But for me, that was one of the most most
tender, most beautiful moments of the show. What
really struck me because you had brought up the
neurodivergence piece. And there's this idea
that with people who are autistic that You want
to avoid demands because demands spark the nervous
system. And if you just think about it, like
you don't even need to have any sense of being
neurodivergent. But if you're heightened up here,
like that one thing, brush your teeth, pushes
you over, right? Like so if your neurotype is
always having to fight the world and you're always
up here, that... demand to share yourself or
even if it's a pleasant thing, you know, even
if it's like, I want to know about you because
I'm interested in you. That is a demand because
you have to respond to that. And something intrinsically
about Rose, she lowers the demand. And I just
thought about it that way now because of what
you said, Diana, about like, she keeps saying,
you owe me nothing. Right. And so she immediately
says, no demands from me you know and maybe that's
why yeah because I was like and then it becomes
easier yeah because at that point it's like okay
you know I can say it I cannot say it um and
for Shane that's that's perfect right like that
moment somebody giving him an out is generally
what he's in You know, like it's like, okay,
that's the moment where he's like, okay, well
now I can decide what it is that I need to do.
And if we think about the way that his life is
structured, he doesn't have many of those opportunities,
right? He is constantly being told what he needs
to do or he just knows what he needs to do, right?
And is thinking about that. And so when somebody
gives him that choice. Even if it's scary now
to lean into saying exactly who he is, or in
the cases with Ilya, he's leaning into desire
because that is what he's being presented with.
He is then willing to do that. Even if it's a
scary thing, he is fine at that point saying,
okay, this feels like it's safe enough for me
to do whatever it is that I want to do. And so
those reassurances echo a lot of the consent
that we hear in those intimacies. scenes, right?
Where there's opportunities like, are you okay?
Right. All of these seconds that, that, um, you
know, he was doing, you know, that's what Rose
is doing. Right. And consistently doing that
because she recognizes, you know, where those
nerves will pop up and things like that. And
doesn't want him to feel like he has to share
his whole life, but know that I am a person you
can share your life with. Yeah. And like, she
even says in the end, let's be friends. Like
I, not only like, not like fake friends, like
good friends. Like I know I have a feeling. that
you don't have really anyone to talk to about
things and stuff. And he's like, yeah, things
and stuff could be tricky for me. So, like, not
only does she give him space, but she's like,
I want to be there for you permanently. Like,
this is non -negotiable. We are now friends.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, we're in this now,
you know? And so, and that's what he needs. You
need people who fully opt in to you. He needs
that. He can't do... light things, right? He
needs somebody who's like, I'm sticking to you
like glue, right? I am here all the time. And
that allows him to release some of that pressure,
just like you were saying, to feel like there
are no demands there. He could just be whoever
he wants to be. And we're going to see that even
more in season two, where life is going to add
more of that pressure. The fact that he and Ilya
have now chosen one another means like, okay,
well, all the stakes are all the stakes. So I'm
also excited to see what roles will play in that,
because he still will. need I'm another person
they will still need these women right like there's
nothing that you know is set up with with their
love where it's like okay great all you need
is like this one person now I'm like what I was
like y 'all took almost 10 years to communicate
you definitely are not done you know and you're
not going to communicate in season two so let's
No, figure this stuff out. I think it's another
opportunity to, again, externalize some of that
internal dialogue that happens because, you know,
we know that. Because they're together, they're
scared of being apart. And so that will lead
them the same way that they were, you know, scared
that they would never be together and so didn't
communicate, right? They're scared that just
saying anything is going to break them up, right?
And so we know that they're, again, going to
need these women to externalize whatever it is
that they're feeling or at least showcase the
fact that if they're really not talking to anyone,
how alone they really are, right? So even them
being pushed away is going to mean something.
because of the way Tierney has set them up, you
know, in season one. And that's stuff that I
love, right? Where make their relationships consequential,
right? These don't feel like just like, oh, you
know, you were just doing it there. Like you
were there for the plot. Like, okay, cool. We're
like, no, what's going on with y 'all? Come back,
help them because they need help, you know? And
so the fact that you can get us to opt into them,
particularly with Rose, who we meet like halfway
through episode four and is only in a little
bit of episode five. The fact that he's able
to do this where we're compelled by these women,
understand their importance and their role in
their lives, and we want to see what happens
because we know that they will still need them,
I think is so huge. And it's a testament to allyship,
right? We know that gay and queer men need women,
right? And we know that. That's just what it
is, right? And it's always been like that. It's
the reason, right, the L is first, right, in
LGBTQ, right? And so we need... We need women.
And so the fact that he made them so important,
so consequential to the story, but mostly to
just them as people, right? It's not just that
they feel like characters that we know and love.
They feel like people, right? They feel like
people that we care very deeply about, care about
the relationships that they've built with these
men is huge. And it feels real, right? It feels
like what women do in real life. It feels very
authentic. It is. It does. No, it is. I was like,
it's, yeah, you know, it's like, what? Women
helping men communicate? What? You know, and
so. Never heard of that. That's what we have
to do. Any kind of men, we're going to be doing
that, you know? And so to be able to see it and
not have it come at the expense of those same
women. Maxine, you mentioned they're not victims
here, right? Like they're helping the men. Without
the women, the men truly couldn't get to where
they are in the show, in their lives, in their
relationships. But also like, let's take a minute
for the fact that like the women are still doing
the emotional labor for the men in the story.
they're not upset by it. Obviously they're not
victimized by it, but that's still like, we always
do it. We always do the emotional labor for men,
for them to process their feelings, you know,
to allow them to grow. Like, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
I know. I was like, and that's the part that
feels like the realist. You know what I mean?
Where it's like, we got, we got even closer to
women that we see every day, you know, where
it's like, even if you get the most. emotionally
intelligent man, right? And a woman is probably
somewhere around there. Multiple women are probably
around there. I love that sort of reciprocality
that happened, right? Like that he is portraying
these women in this authentic way because it
is authentic. And he's saying, yeah, these women
are doing the emotional work. a woman wrote this
book you know it's like yes literally yeah and
it makes total sense you know when we get to
especially when we get to Elena right and and
before we even get to who she is on screen like
just the fact that you know as um Jacob Tierney
was writing Elena the only person he thought
of was Nadine Bobbitt right so he knew this is
like that's his friend Right. So he's like, if
I'm thinking about someone's day one friend,
this is my day one friend. Right. Who's a badass
and who's going to be like, who doesn't take
any shit? Like, let's go. That's who I'm thinking
about. And that's who's playing it. Right. And
she's playing not necessarily exactly herself,
but definitely a version of herself. If you've
seen any interviews or anything with her. One
of the big things that I focused on when I did
my rewatch for our conversation was like, how
are they? introduced right she is a force of
nature when she walks into the kingfisher and
she shows up and she's walking and she sits down
in the in the booth right and she's cursing out
kyle right immediately this is how we meet her
right and it's like okay well elena's here our
house when she walks in you know for me i was
like well the grown -up has arrived okay it's
how i felt i was like all right well everyone
else is doing whatever The grownup is here now,
you know? And that's very much what it is, right?
And even with, you know, her cursing Kyle out,
he walks past and she knows the exact food that
he wants to eat and she gives it to him. She
can be a little caustic, right? Have a little
bit of a razor's edge, right? But that she's
immensely kind. She is thoughtful, right? Those
are things we see instantly, right? And so her
role in this. is as the adult, right? Like everyone's,
this is, we're in a rom -com in episode three,
right? And it's like, oh, this is all really
cute. The music's great. Everyone's vibing. And
she's like, what's going on? You know, like what's
really happening here? You know, like let's figure
it out. And I also love the use of the television
for us to get a sense of how she's feeling about
this relationship. So she comes in, she turns
the game on. Right. And and where Kip is starting
to like have this conversation with her and,
you know, she's validating information. What
does Maria think? Right. Again, you're seeing
her thoughtfulness, how she's approaching all
of this. But you also see that she's open to,
you know, Scott and Kip. She turns it on. Right.
She literally puts the game on. Right. And so
she understands, OK, I need to make space for
whatever this is. He is into it. Maria is smarter
than him. She says something's going on. Let's
see how it goes. Right. But then she also goes,
well, what's the plan? Figure it out. Get organized.
Right. And when's his next game? If you want
your life to go a particular way, do a thing.
Right. And make it that way. Step by step. Like
she's literally leading him step by step. She's
like, here we go. Let's figure this stuff out.
Right. And so I love that that's how they establish,
you know, their friendship. She doesn't. um soften
herself no for this conversation she's very much
who she is she's like i'm just gonna ask what
i asked um and i love the scene in particular
because it doesn't feel like it's being played
for the audience right like the audience would
feel like it needs her to be a little bit like
be a little nicer you know like you don't need
to you know be mean to him or And she's like,
listen, this is how I'm really going to talk
to you about what's going on. This is our relationship.
Right. Yes. Like this is how we interact. And
so I love that she's able to be exactly who she
is. Yeah. Yeah. She feels like a much more like
a pragmatic ally. Right. Like she understands
the high stakes of the relationship. She understands
the situation. But her support is honest. Like
it's blunt. Like, what is your plan with my kip?
We're going to dance. I'm not taking no for an
answer. And we're going to dance and I'm going
to. Tell you how I feel. And it's protective,
too. I mean, they're all protective in different
ways. I think her role is interesting because
she's, you know, these Ilya and Shane, they're
not having come to terms with their sexuality.
And Svetlana and Rose serve in that, you know,
they're friends with them. But that's different
from Elena. And it's kind of interesting to see
that. how that allyship changes when that role
changes. The way in which you demonstrate how
to be someone who is a safe space, but still
open. to the possibility, even though she's just
like, what's the plan? You know, like she's thinking
ahead, but she, but that I loved that sort of
juxtaposition of these three characters that
we've been talking about and her specifically
being in a different, entirely different life
role. than Lana and Rose. And Rose, yes, because
I was like, she's living a regular day girl life.
Like she's a regular person, you know, and Brooke
is a regular person. And I love that we get,
you know, their entire friendship group, right?
They're just real people who are doing things,
you know, and, you know, it is an ability for
us to see what it's like to protect a life that
is open. In the other cases, we're dealing with
people who are trying to help them navigate living
a life that is in the closet. She is trying to
protect him being outside. She's like, I understand.
And we don't know what the journey was for him
to get to where he is now. And so that could
be part of her being protective. Or it could
just be like, I see you. You're living your life.
Your dad knows what's going on. You're not having
to hide anything from any of us. don't want to
now have to see you having to navigate that.
Um, and I'm protective of that because that's
who you are, right? Who we know you as right
now is who you are. You will have to be a different
person or a different version of yourself. You
know, if you decide to, to embark on this relationship,
she knows what sports are like, right? So it's
not like she's like, Oh, well, why can't you
just be doing blah, blah, blah. Like she's, she
knows what time it is. She understands, right?
She understands what the stakes are. Um, but
she wants her friends. be happy she doesn't want
him to go back into hiding and absolutely that's
not she's not interested in that at all right
and and he knows that which is why he's like
oh you know he's always jumping in and saying
things because he knows you know what she's going
to say like uh -uh yeah it's like you're in love
with him period right like we're not having a
conversation about it that's what's happening
Right? Like, what are you going to do about it
now? Yeah. You know, like, if we're already in
this mess. Tell me the truth. Tell me the truth.
Like, tell me what's going on. Like, I have already
paid attention. I know what's happening. Maybe,
you know, maybe other friends aren't saying anything.
I'm saying something. Listen here. You're not
telling me things. You're not telling your dad
stuff. Yeah. Right. She's already seeing him
hide. And she's, like, picking up on these subtle
cues before it becomes more overt. And she's
noticing. She's noticing stuff, right? And they
give us the time frame, right? In the first conversation
they have, you know, he says it's, you know,
that's not until two months away, right? And
then she's saying, you need to have a thing.
You're not doing this in perpetuity. I'm not
watching you spin yourself out, you know, with
the hope that maybe sometime in the future or
at some point, you know, you all will be able
to be out. You know, like she really wants him
to. be on a path to his happiness. She knows
what his goals are, right? It's her who we hear
say he gets the full ride to grad school, right?
All of these are choices, right? That are made
on purpose, right? For us to understand who's
the keeper of information, right? Who knows things,
who says things, right? It's her voice we hear
echoed over and over again. And so she is the
keeper of him. Right. Like, yeah, she says that.
That's why she's the one who says, like, what
are you know, what are your intentions? It's
my kid. Yeah. Right. What are you doing with
my kid? You know, and somebody needs to care
for him in that way, especially, you know, in
front of Scott. Right. He needs to see that.
And he also needs to see that, like, he needs
people. And the best way for you to see that
you need people is to see other people show up.
For their people. Right. Exactly. That's a great
point. Yeah. Like somebody is showing up and
saying like, this is really cute. Love it. What's
going on? What's actually happening? And so he
needed to see that, right? Like that needed to
be part of his journey. Just like, and she spoke,
you know, she spoke life into him, right? He
needed to hear that. There's no kiss if she doesn't
dance with him. That's not happening. I totally
agree. And I think she is a lot of the reason,
I mean, you know, we know, okay, Scott compared
to Shane and Ilya are, he's in a different part
of his professional journey. Yes. But I really
do. I think you said it so beautifully that she
was part of his coming out too, because she.
showed up accepted and and like she showed the
path to what it looks like when you're out in
the open in your sunshine right absolutely and
she showed that she would be there for him yeah
right like that because you also deserve it exactly
right and so do you as a massive part of that
and that's for them Right. Like that's a conversation
they're having with one another. Kip is watching
them. Right. But whatever they're saying is for
them. She did not need to say that, which is
why I love that she did. Right. Right. Right.
Right. Encourage him. Yeah. And so that is also
part of it, that she already showed up like I
I'm here. Right. Like you have to do right by
my friends. Yeah. But if you do, I'm here. Right.
Like it will be it will be all of us. You know,
it will be all of us together. Yeah. And Scott
absolutely needed that because he doesn't have
anyone. Right. So he needed to know that, like,
at the, you know, at the tiniest bit, at least
I know it could be us. Right. She already knows
that information. Right. And he doesn't freak
out, which is also another part. Like, that's
something Frosted Pants had to do as well. Like,
he could have just been like, what's going on?
Like, now she knows. Right. He didn't really
do that. He was like, OK. You know, why is she
up in our business? Exactly. I think he recognized
who she is, right, as that force, you know, and
saying, like, somebody's going to clock it, you
know, and if this is the person who clocked it,
it's fine. Let's move the clock forward, please,
you know, and that's really what the women do,
you know, and she absolutely does it because,
again, if that dance doesn't happen, if she doesn't
tell him those words, right, the words we know
that Jacob picked on purpose. Right. For for
her to say none of the rest of this is happening.
Right. And if that doesn't happen, then Shane
and Eliana don't happen. Right. And so, again,
we see like how consequential women are. Right.
Not just, you know, them showing up, but them
saying what needs to be said. Right. And whether
that's I'm always going to be here for you. So
do what you need to do. I'm always going to be
here for you. So say what you need to say. I'm
always going to be here for you. So you better
act right. Whatever it is, you know, like they
are the ones to do that. And we need that. That's
how these women show up for them, you know, and
say like, I will wrap my arms around you. Right.
But you still need to do whatever it is that
you need to do. You need to do some of the work.
I will do it, but also like you do something.
Yeah. Exactly. Like without Rose, Shane may have
never confronted the truth. Without Svetlana,
Ilya may not have survived the truth. Right.
Without Elena and Maria. Right. Like the world
may never accept. them around them right so like
the their romances are held together by these
women you know like because like we've said women
are gonna make the world go round whether in
whatever space that they're in I want to thank
you so much for coming on the show. I think you're
so wonderful and I love your theories and I love
your analysis and your stories and how you write.
I loved our conversation today. Thank you so
much for coming. Maxine, tell people where they
could find you. Yeah, tell people. Well, you
can find me on threads at MaxineMaxineNYC. And
then you can find me in terms of the writing
it is that I'm doing, as well as podcast appearances
like this on my website, which is MaxineIAwrites
.com. Oh, awesome. Thank you so much. Have a
great evening. Take care. Bye -bye. Diana, you
always somehow find the best guests for us. Talking
to Maxine was wonderful. Thank you so much for...
Finding her and bringing her on our show. I have
to tell all the listeners this. I am not social
media savvy. And so the person who is the half
of us that does all of it is Diana. And she's
amazing at it and just finds a way to connect
us in the best way in, you know, finding people
who really love the show like we do, like our
audience does so. Thank you. And Maxine was a
wonderful guest. And for me, I think she really
crystallized something about the women in the
show is that they're not just allies in that
they provide like a very, you know, a place where
these men can kind of dump their feelings out.
They also actively engage in not keeping these
men stuck in where they are. Because face it.
They might be if they're not there. You know
what I mean? You make a good point. Like the
women love the men enough to push them forward.
And they do that without losing themselves. That's
what I keep coming back to, that these women
are fully realized and their careers and their
confidence in their own lives. They're not like
walking around trying to get these men to fill
some sort of holes, you know, in their lives
or anything like that. They don't let like they're
not sitting around like waiting for the men to
figure it all out. They're like, you're going
to figure this out and I'm going to help you.
And then it really makes me think about the women
in our own lives who've done that for us. As
someone who didn't maybe grow up with a lot of
friends, it's been such a joy to have made friends
in other moments of my life, especially unexpectedly,
especially as adults. Wonderful. groups of women
that really sustain me has just been a joy because
they're the ones who tell me, you know, what
I need to do. They hold me up when I'm down,
but they're also, you know, they provide the
push. The push that we all need, you know, like
I'm the pusher, but I also have women in my life
who tell me like, hey, Diana, get your shit together.
And this is what you should be doing. Women are
just perfect angels and deserve the best. So
that's it. That's all I want to say about women.
Perfectly imperfect. And I love that. I love
that the show does that. I don't know why you
keep saying women are imperfect. They are perfect.
They are. No, but they are. They are perfect.
But the show, I feel like the whole idea that,
like, you have to be this angel to be considered
worthy is not one that the show subscribes to.
Right, right, right. But we are perfect. We are
perfect, obviously. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
So speaking of perfect things, sunshine. What
is your moment of sunshine this week, Diana?
So like, honestly, my moment of sunshine is the
women in my life. I would just like to acknowledge
all the women in my life from my mom to my friends,
my daughter, like I have surrounded myself after
all these years with the most beautiful, inspiring,
strong, wise, witty, funny women. I am so lucky.
I am so grateful. And like my moment of sunshine
is the women. So in addition to being a Women's
History Month, it's also Read Across America
Month. And if you have small children, schools
do all sorts of stuff. My kids and I went to
a cat shelter to read to 110 cats. So it was
a very cute experience. So that was really fun
to watch my kids. That's so cute. I love that.
That's so cute. I love that. Cute and slightly
strange. Slightly strange. I did not know such
a program existed. And now we are fully into
reading to these cats every other weekend. Awesome.
That's a beautiful moment of sunshine. Next week
on Everyone Deserves Sunshine, we're talking
about emotional resurrection. So subscribe now
wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want
to say hi to Girls in the Crease, find us on
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Deserves Sunshine. Or email us at everyone deserves
sunshine at gmail .com. New episodes drop on
Mondays. See you then.