WEBVTT

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Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana.

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And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease.

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And today, we're talking about something that

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runs through the heart of heated rivalry, but

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doesn't always get the spotlight. It deserves,

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much like women. I love you. Allyship. We've

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spent episodes analyzing music and intimacy and

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masculinity. But what about Shane and Ilya's

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love story and Kip and Scott's love story? It

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doesn't happen without the women in their lives.

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Nope. Nope. So this very special episode on International

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Women's Day and during Women's History Month

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is dedicated to Svetlana, Rose, Elena, and all

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the women in the heated rivalry world moving

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the plot forward. Moving the plot forward. And

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to all the women listening to our show, analyzing

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our show. And to all the women in our lives,

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happy International Women's Day. And may you

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always be treated like the goddesses that you

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are. So is that to me, Diana? Of course, my love.

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It's to you as well. Happy International Women's

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Day, Anusha. And same to you. And you are a goddess.

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And with that, this is our Episode 9, Allyship.

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Joining us today is Maxine. She is a thread.

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Thrend, is that what we say now on Threads? She's

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also an essayist and has written several essays

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about heated rivalry. We have shared her essays

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on music after we did our music episode, which

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was excellent. And so we're so excited to have

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you here, Maxine. Welcome to the show. Welcome,

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Maxine. Thank you so much. Yes, I'm so excited

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to be here. Thank you for joining us on a Friday

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evening, no less, after a long day. Yes, I'm

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super excited to chat with you all. So we always

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ask everyone their origin story. by which I mean

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they're heated Bible re -origin stories. So do

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tell. Yes. So I was introduced through the show.

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So the show was released on the 28th and I watched

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it on Saturday the 29th. So from the very beginning,

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I'm someone who absolutely loves being there

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when the zeitgeist is being created. So I was

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super happy to, you know, be there from the very

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beginning. Watched the first two episodes and

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then read the first book before episode three.

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I'm definitely a romance girly like all these.

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books behind me are all romance novels that are

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there and have many more. you know, piles around

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my apartment. I also just love sports romance

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in general. So like I'm a Duke alum. And so really,

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and some of my close friends played professional

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sports and coach in professional sports now.

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So I've always been a sports girl. I also am

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absolutely obsessed with adaptation. So I'm definitely

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a person who I don't need much convincing. Like

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if I see it and I'm like, hey, let me check it

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out. Let me see. And it was only two episodes.

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So I was like, okay, let me just see these two.

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And then if I'm interested. I'll keep going.

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And again, I like being there from the very beginning.

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And I know there will be a lot of people for

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season two who will be doing that with us. I

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wanted to share something that is probably going

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to be very familiar to you. You talk about sort

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of the sort of like exasperated way of like explaining,

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demystifying why heated rivalry is popular. And

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you're like, hello. I really like this part of

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what you wrote. You said, we've always known.

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We know what to read. We know what to write.

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We know why we return to romance again and again.

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We fight for more access for non -cis, white,

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hetero women authors. We champion marginalized

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stories and voices. It is no surprise that this

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queer story is being shepherded by women, being

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watched and rewatched and analyzed and adored

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by women. And you know why heated rivalry is

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popular? It's the genre. It's us. First of all,

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I share your exasperation. I'm like, yeah, why

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would this not be popular? There's no mystery

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in it. But I'm so glad that you're working to

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demystify it because I feel like this conversation

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comes about like, why do people like this so

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much? And you're like, women especially, right?

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Like, and it's always like, yeah, we've always

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liked this. You just didn't care to listen. And

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I just thought, though, the framing that you

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did about the stories that we fight to see and

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why we... love as women this genre of queer stories

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I loved that framing and I thought that worked

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perfectly as a you know like an intro to the

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topic at hand which is allyship you know yes

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so tell us tell us about like that what that

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element meant to you sure so it was massive to

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me I think We were really excited about, you

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know, the primary couple that we have there.

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And then also, you know, the secondary couple

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that we have in Scott and Kip. But I think we

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know just based on these six episodes that. we

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would not have gotten to the end that we did

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without the women that are in the show, right?

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The women are playing a really critical role.

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In some cases, they are externalizing internal

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dialogue for us. So things that we may have been

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able to read about in the book, you know, a conversation

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allows those things to come out. But also the

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women that we got in particular, right? The level

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of confidence, the level of self -assuredness,

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right? The women were not a space where like

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they were. figuring themselves out and trying

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to do something else. They were absolutely serving

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the broader story that was being told. in a way

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that did not make them feel less compelling,

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right? In a way that made us want to know more

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about them, right? It's like, I want to know,

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you know, how are you so confident, you know,

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to be able to navigate, you know, for Svetlana,

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the relationship with Ilya for all of this time,

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you know, like, I want to know what's going on

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with Kip and Elena and how they met and how they

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became, you know, day one friends, you know,

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and I want to know about what's going on with

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Maria, you know, Kiki and in the back, I want

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to know, you know, what's happening with Rose,

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you know, in her career. And so it's a really

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testament to, you know, the source material,

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of course. So Rachel, you know, writing these

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women, but also, you know, Jacob Tierney coming

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in and saying, I actually want to strengthen

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them even more. I want to flesh things out. I

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want to get really, really, really strong women

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in these roles to help us understand that, you

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know, these men are navigating their lives, but

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they need help. They're still men. Because they're

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still men. At the end of the day, they are still

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men. They still need help, you know? And so that

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part felt really real. And the women just felt

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really real. They felt like strong women that

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we know versus like another way of writing them

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where they could have helped, but they could

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have also felt a bit hopeless themselves. And

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they definitely didn't, you know, in what we

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got. There's something so meta because in your

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essay, you said it's not a shock that women shepherded

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the show in. And in the show, the women are shepherding

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the men into these really big realizations, right?

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I just think that's such an interesting parallel.

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I mean, the show, as you said, like... the women

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are not the main story right like obviously they're

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not but they're like essential right they're

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providing like cover and safety and they like

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challenge the men to like be truthful and honest

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with themselves like the show flips this like

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usual script right like they're not victims in

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the story as you'd see in a lot of like other

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queer you know stories and narratives like they

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protect relationships even when the men can't

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who was who was really compelling or who did

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you feel like you connected with you know I connected

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with all of them and in different ways but I

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think for me it's absolutely Svetlana I think

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um mainly because like for me she's who I was

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or like a version of who I was like 10 years

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ago So 10 years ago, my friends were playing

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in the league. Right. So, you know, in terms

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of like literal conversations I was having with

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them, you know, about the sport that they were

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playing, about who they were playing against.

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So for me, I'm like, I've never seen that version

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of a woman as a friend of an athlete before.

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That's very cool. Not have it feel like, you

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know, she's hanging on. you know or or she's

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there because she needs to be seen with everybody

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else like she isn't we don't see spelana at games

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we don't see her doing you know what you would

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usually see for a friend of an athlete and she's

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she's absolutely there she's in her circle right

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when we think about where we see her connecting

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with Ilya all the time it's like in his home

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it's in enclosed spaces right where they're with

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each other or that she's going to save him you

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know in in terms of like episode two where she's

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pulling him away you know from from being berated

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while he's dissociating you know so for me I

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think it's it's definitely Svetlana and and Jacob

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Tierney's choice to flesh her out way more and

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add so much to her in terms of that strength

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the length of their friendship And so making

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that something that he's had for a really long

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time and that she understands him. Something

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that I really like to point out is like the same

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amount of time that we see pass for Ilya and

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Shane, we see pass for Ilya and Svetlana, right?

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Like they are friends for that same amount of

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time, right? And if we're like, whoa, that's

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a long time, you know, for Shane, it's a long

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time too, you know, for Svetlana. And they've

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been friends before that. So, you know, thinking

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about the time, how much she knows about him.

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the depth of care, and then just thinking about,

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you know, Ksenia coming into the role and just

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smashing it, you know, and the fact that we never

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hear her speak English in the whole show, you

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know, and for us to say that she's a character

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that we've fallen in love with, she's able to

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see through the trauma and see through the, you

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know, CPTSD that he's dealing with to say, like,

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I know who you are. you know, and like figure

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this out. I know what you're capable of, both

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in terms of hockey, but also in terms of your

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life, right? And I understand and I know my role,

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so you don't have to worry about where I'm going.

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I also think their relationship, you know, still

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having sex as a component of it, but them not

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being in, you know, a formal relationship is

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massive in terms of representation. And helping

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people to confront feelings that they have about

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casual sex and what that means and how women

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feel about casual sex. So the fact that we meet

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her and pretty instantly she's like, I don't

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really care. Like, whatever. I'm here to do this.

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She's like, you know me. Yeah. Right. It's like,

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I don't really care about that. And we hear her

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say that. Right. We're, you know, we're. You

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know, I was like, oh, are you are you worried?

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She's like, I'm not. I'm not worried. You know,

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like that's not what I'm here for. And she's

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never a woman who's pining after him. Right.

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She's like, I know. I know who you are. I know

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who you like. I know what you need. And I know

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you need to figure stuff out. And so I'm going

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to point you in the right direction and let you

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know that I'm not going anywhere. And so I just

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think her presence there is so important. Thinking

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about how she sees the relationship, you know,

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you see those in those montages, her little side

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glances, like, you know, she is tracking their

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relationship. He thinks he's being so subtle,

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but she's able to understand, like, where he

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is. It's made very explicit in the scene in Russia

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during the funeral. She knows that he likes men,

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women, both, as he says. I just love that you

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only hear that at the very end, though. But she's

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laid the groundwork for that understanding the

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whole time. That scene in the hotel room where

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they're watching and he's... That is one of my

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favorite scenes. I love that scene. Yeah, I love

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that scene so much. You could tell they're childhood

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friends, you know, because they're talking in

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Russian. And she's like, I'd love to see you

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on a line with him. He's like, well, why would

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I be on a line with him? We play the same position.

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She's like, you can be his wing. I'm probably

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butchering all of these hockey things. She's

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like, me? You want me? You would want me to be

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like his, you know. let him have the center and

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me be like the side. And she's like, yeah, the

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people want, and you could tell like every part

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of that. interaction shows the depth of her knowledge

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of something that is so important to him um that

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is like his fundamental like basis um that she

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meets him where he's at and she kind of is like

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you know he's gorgeous right like she knows that

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he knows whether or not whether or not she knows

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he's jane you know i don't know but she knows

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that you know ilia is not immune to the charms

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of other men And then when they fight, they're

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like two little puppies, you know? Yeah, it's

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so sweet. It's very sweet. We said she knows

00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:43.940
him. She's the only person in his life who truly

00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:46.399
knows him from the moment, right? Like the only

00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:49.100
one in his life. So she knows whether or not

00:12:49.100 --> 00:12:51.159
she knows Shane. I think she does because remember,

00:12:51.299 --> 00:12:53.080
and I think it was episode two when he's sitting

00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:56.360
and watching him do yoga, right? Maybe four,

00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.299
four, four, four. Yeah, four, right? She knows.

00:12:59.379 --> 00:13:00.360
She's like, what are you watching? He's like,

00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.320
I'm so bored. She goes, mm -hmm. Like, oh, it's

00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:05.039
right. right before that car conversation. So

00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:07.679
she's like constantly trying to like pick. So

00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.879
the first time she talks about Shane in particular

00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:15.639
is in the bathroom in episode two, right? And

00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.440
so she's talking about him for hockey reasons,

00:13:18.659 --> 00:13:21.500
right? So Yacht has to like go through, they

00:13:21.500 --> 00:13:23.639
have to go through Hollander and the metros,

00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:25.809
right? To be able to get to the cup. So that's

00:13:25.809 --> 00:13:28.389
the first time. Second time she talks about Shane

00:13:28.389 --> 00:13:31.090
is exactly what you mentioned when he is watching

00:13:31.090 --> 00:13:33.950
that little feature on the cottage and she's

00:13:33.950 --> 00:13:36.549
talking about how gorgeous he is. And then the

00:13:36.549 --> 00:13:38.809
third time, the time that we just talked about

00:13:38.809 --> 00:13:42.309
in EDS bedroom, she's talking about both. Right.

00:13:42.370 --> 00:13:45.590
So she so by the third time, she's already starting

00:13:45.590 --> 00:13:47.809
to do both of that because she says like he's

00:13:47.809 --> 00:13:49.809
gorgeous and his hands. Right. So she's talking

00:13:49.809 --> 00:13:52.929
about both things. Yeah. Right. And then that

00:13:52.929 --> 00:13:56.159
goes directly into. You know, them being in the

00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.639
limo and her doing that. And also the fact that

00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:03.259
she says Jane, like she sees that name instantly,

00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:06.100
right? It takes her literally five seconds for

00:14:06.100 --> 00:14:08.379
the name to show up. And she already knows that.

00:14:08.419 --> 00:14:11.100
That's before they really do anything. That's

00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:14.159
not even the end of episode one where she's saying

00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.299
Jane, right? And then the next time we hear her

00:14:16.299 --> 00:14:18.440
say that. It's like eight years later. And so

00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:20.500
it is really important for us to like, to pay

00:14:20.500 --> 00:14:22.220
attention to that. She finds that information

00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:26.080
out super early before, you know, Ilya goes to

00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:28.740
Shane's apartment. Any of that happens, she already

00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:31.220
knows the name, right? Even if it's a name that's

00:14:31.220 --> 00:14:32.419
like, whatever, I don't have to pay attention

00:14:32.419 --> 00:14:34.899
to. It's a name she knows, right? At least for

00:14:34.899 --> 00:14:36.460
it to be on the phone. And then it keeps coming

00:14:36.460 --> 00:14:39.000
back, right? And she's figuring out when it's

00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.919
time for her to say it, right? When is it time

00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:43.740
for me to deploy the fact that I know this, you

00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:44.960
know, the fact that I've been paying attention.

00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.279
And so I love that. I love that the passage of

00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.779
time is not just with Shane. For Ilya, it's also

00:14:52.779 --> 00:14:54.940
with Svetlana, right? And I also love that in

00:14:54.940 --> 00:14:57.559
terms of, and I don't know if Rachel did this

00:14:57.559 --> 00:14:59.340
on purpose, but I have to think part of it is,

00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:03.139
like, for Ilya, there's Shane and Svetlana, right?

00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.159
And for Shane, there's Rose and Rosanoff, right?

00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:09.200
And so I don't think that that's an accident,

00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:11.960
you know, in terms of... What's happening, the

00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:14.740
names, the people that they're constantly thinking

00:15:14.740 --> 00:15:17.139
about, the people that know things about them.

00:15:17.259 --> 00:15:21.419
Given how very few people actually know Jane

00:15:21.419 --> 00:15:24.940
and Lily's name, Hayden being an exception. Like,

00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.080
I wonder if it's like subliminally he trusts.

00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:31.940
Svetlana, even before, you know, he gets really

00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:36.039
deep in with Shane, he knows that, you know,

00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.580
A, she's safe. She's not going to get jealous

00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:43.399
of Jane. And B, like, you know, he's always hiding

00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:47.350
his phone. But with her, I mean, like. It was

00:15:47.350 --> 00:15:50.370
like, what? Right there. It was like immediately.

00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:52.710
She walks in, boom, phone, you know? It's like,

00:15:52.809 --> 00:15:55.549
whoa, you know? And so I think that's an excellent

00:15:55.549 --> 00:15:58.230
way, you know, to show us that like his guard

00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:01.090
is down around her, right? And also that she's

00:16:01.090 --> 00:16:03.289
extremely observant, right? Because it's not

00:16:03.289 --> 00:16:05.490
like, oh, the phone's on the table. She's looking

00:16:05.490 --> 00:16:07.950
down at the, you know, they didn't do it like

00:16:07.950 --> 00:16:09.990
that, you know, in terms of like really walking

00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:11.289
it through. It's like something that's happening

00:16:11.289 --> 00:16:14.929
very fast, but you see. He knows he's surprised

00:16:14.929 --> 00:16:17.250
by her being there, but it's not like, oh my

00:16:17.250 --> 00:16:18.970
God, I hate you. It's like, okay, now we're transitioning

00:16:18.970 --> 00:16:21.250
into something else, right? So his guard was

00:16:21.250 --> 00:16:23.809
immediately down, realizing that it's her who

00:16:23.809 --> 00:16:26.070
surprised him in the home, right? And then her,

00:16:26.169 --> 00:16:28.570
she's paying attention, right? She's always just

00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:30.370
clocking, like whatever's going on. She's always

00:16:30.370 --> 00:16:32.470
paying attention. She's always paying attention,

00:16:32.710 --> 00:16:34.269
right? I think she's one of the more complex

00:16:34.269 --> 00:16:36.870
allies in the show because of her relationship

00:16:36.870 --> 00:16:39.809
with, because again. even the dad says like they've

00:16:39.809 --> 00:16:41.529
known each other since they were kids right so

00:16:41.529 --> 00:16:43.129
like they're constantly following each other

00:16:43.129 --> 00:16:45.250
so one of the most complicated because she knows

00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:47.690
him the longest she knows exactly who he is she

00:16:47.690 --> 00:16:50.929
also gives them sex right like a physical affection

00:16:50.929 --> 00:16:54.250
yes and not just the physical sex affection and

00:16:54.250 --> 00:16:57.070
sex but also like that comfort you know she's

00:16:57.070 --> 00:16:59.889
he's he lies on her lap she like pets him like

00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:01.850
there's a lot of like physical affection that

00:17:01.850 --> 00:17:04.650
he doesn't get from anywhere like the hugging

00:17:04.650 --> 00:17:07.710
the the softness that she gives them and so she's

00:17:07.710 --> 00:17:09.509
the person who does that for him so i think she's

00:17:09.509 --> 00:17:13.650
she's very complex whereas rose i think and i

00:17:13.650 --> 00:17:17.849
think it's okay if we move to the next yeah like

00:17:17.849 --> 00:17:20.730
rose is like to me, like, is more of like a,

00:17:20.750 --> 00:17:22.750
I don't know if she's, she's like intentional.

00:17:23.009 --> 00:17:26.210
She becomes an intentional ally. I don't think,

00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:27.869
I don't think Svetlana knew that she was going

00:17:27.869 --> 00:17:29.390
to be an ally. Like, I don't think when they

00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:31.609
were kids, like, she realized that, right? But

00:17:31.609 --> 00:17:33.750
Rose, like, gets it. No, but you know what? Can

00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:36.730
I make one point about Svetlana? I mean, we don't

00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:39.470
explore this at all because she's Ilya's friend.

00:17:39.829 --> 00:17:42.210
You know, there are three of them were friends

00:17:42.210 --> 00:17:46.769
since childhood. Ilya, Svetlana, and... Sasha.

00:17:46.990 --> 00:17:52.059
Sasha, right? And I wonder what their relationship,

00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:54.640
you know, because she gives them space. She's

00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.400
like, I let you boys catch up. She knows. She

00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.539
knows exactly what that's about, right? And I'm

00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:04.180
always like, so she was part of this like triad

00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:06.599
where, you know. She provides cover for him too.

00:18:06.700 --> 00:18:09.440
I was like, she provides cover for Sasha as well,

00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.789
right? She understands. you know, the nonsense

00:18:11.789 --> 00:18:14.150
within, you know? And so, yeah, it's, it's the

00:18:14.150 --> 00:18:16.710
three of them. Absolutely. Yeah. So what, what

00:18:16.710 --> 00:18:18.730
reminded me is like, you're like, I don't think

00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:20.549
she intended to be an ally, which I think is

00:18:20.549 --> 00:18:24.269
true, but she found herself with these two boys

00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:27.769
who are a little bit lost, right? Like both of

00:18:27.769 --> 00:18:30.910
them. We don't know. I mean, she's in, he's in

00:18:30.910 --> 00:18:33.369
Paris now or, you know, right. So he's having,

00:18:33.450 --> 00:18:35.940
he's living the life. Like, but you're okay.

00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:37.960
You're right. I'll take that. I'll take that.

00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:41.839
But Rose also, I feel like, right, she didn't

00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.619
intend to do this in some ways. But also kind

00:18:45.619 --> 00:18:48.160
of like she's found herself clearly in these

00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:52.640
situations through like most of her life too,

00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:54.900
right? Like being in theater school, right? She's

00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:58.240
like, oh, 80 % of my boyfriends were gay. Join

00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.880
the club. Join the club. Join the club. But I...

00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:04.660
I love her so much because she understands Shane

00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:07.240
before he even is, you know, understands himself.

00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.460
And she creates space for him to like admit that

00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:15.420
to himself. She models graceful exit allyship.

00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:19.240
Like she gives him the opportunity to exit the

00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:21.759
relationship with his dignity instead of being

00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:24.119
like, oh my God, you're gay. Like this is over.

00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.779
Like you wasted my time, you know, whatever else.

00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:30.619
Like she's like, I. know you need this and I'm

00:19:30.619 --> 00:19:33.240
going to give this space to you. So what are

00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.700
your thoughts about Rose Maxine? Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:37.900
So for me, I think, you know, where Svetlana

00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:41.539
is, you know, like I know who you are. You know,

00:19:41.539 --> 00:19:44.220
Rose is like, I'm giving you space to figure

00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:47.859
that out, right? And so when I think of who she

00:19:47.859 --> 00:19:50.440
is, right, that's who she shows up to be, right?

00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:52.920
That person where, you know, I will hold your

00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.119
hand and, you know, go wherever we're going,

00:19:56.259 --> 00:19:58.960
right? And so really, and that's what Shane needs,

00:19:59.059 --> 00:20:01.319
right? It's just an opportunity to figure it

00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.220
out. You know, have somebody who's there whenever

00:20:03.220 --> 00:20:06.619
he's ready. And the push that he needs is just

00:20:06.619 --> 00:20:08.900
that she's there. Right. It doesn't need to be

00:20:08.900 --> 00:20:10.460
anything more than that. And I think that is

00:20:10.460 --> 00:20:12.640
all he needed in terms of being able to, you

00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:16.059
know, admit things to himself and to her, which

00:20:16.059 --> 00:20:19.119
I love. And I think of, you know, how he meets

00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.859
her. I always think of like entrances, how we

00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:25.019
learn people's names, I think is massively important.

00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:27.259
Something that I think about with Phil all the

00:20:27.259 --> 00:20:29.059
time, I'm always paying attention to like the

00:20:29.059 --> 00:20:31.099
first time we hear a name, the first time we

00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:33.079
see a person, what's happening. And in the case

00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.259
of Rose, she's already sitting. right she's already

00:20:36.259 --> 00:20:38.859
living her life she's you know eating her fries

00:20:38.859 --> 00:20:42.099
enjoying a vibe you know and it's shane that

00:20:42.099 --> 00:20:44.400
stumbles into her right and that happens to sit

00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.359
there and this woman is there right and so i

00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:51.019
think and we just talked about where we see spelana

00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:53.950
she's In the space. She's in his space, right?

00:20:54.009 --> 00:20:56.650
She rolls up in there, right? That's not what

00:20:56.650 --> 00:20:58.789
happens in the case of Shane, right? Shane is

00:20:58.789 --> 00:21:01.390
trying to figure stuff out and he sits down wherever

00:21:01.390 --> 00:21:04.410
and there she is, right? And so I love that that

00:21:04.410 --> 00:21:06.829
is the introduction that we get for her, right?

00:21:06.890 --> 00:21:09.309
That she is already existing, already doing her

00:21:09.309 --> 00:21:12.349
thing. And it's a boom type of situation, you

00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:15.529
know, like two things collide, right? He stumbles

00:21:15.529 --> 00:21:18.390
into her. Literally, right? And that's how we

00:21:18.390 --> 00:21:21.019
needed it to happen. Yeah. Because he's not the

00:21:21.019 --> 00:21:24.019
type of person who he's going to go out and do,

00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:26.400
even if he thought he was going to do that, Shane's

00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.579
not doing that. Okay. So he literally was trying

00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:33.700
to get away from it all. Exactly. Right. He was

00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:35.720
not doing it. He was like, I'm going to go anywhere.

00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.500
I don't know. No. And happened to sit down and

00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:41.359
she's there. That's a woman who's already knows

00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.940
herself. Right. Is already immensely confident.

00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.579
Right. And is now and navigates that conversation

00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:51.680
from small talk to big talk very quickly. Right.

00:21:51.700 --> 00:21:53.839
It's like one second of like, hello. And the

00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:55.640
next thing she's like, when I was eight, you

00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:59.069
know what I mean? like get into it really fast,

00:21:59.410 --> 00:22:03.069
which I love because I think Shane. If I'm thinking

00:22:03.069 --> 00:22:05.890
about like me, you know, myself as somebody who's

00:22:05.890 --> 00:22:09.029
neurodivergent and will go into deep conversations

00:22:09.029 --> 00:22:11.829
very quickly, you know, I'm not surprised that,

00:22:11.849 --> 00:22:13.650
you know, Shane is like, I have no idea how to

00:22:13.650 --> 00:22:15.369
navigate. Like, well, what's the weather and

00:22:15.369 --> 00:22:17.349
blah, blah, blah. And I don't know any of that.

00:22:17.369 --> 00:22:19.470
But like, I can actually, even if it's awkward,

00:22:19.609 --> 00:22:22.950
get into the real things, right? I can talk about

00:22:22.950 --> 00:22:25.410
what's really happening in my life because it

00:22:25.410 --> 00:22:27.650
seems like you're a safe person that I'm able

00:22:27.650 --> 00:22:30.650
to communicate with. And so Rose's presence.

00:22:31.549 --> 00:22:34.730
It's so necessary to just give him someone who

00:22:34.730 --> 00:22:37.690
can pull things out of him, you know, a little

00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:40.410
bit more to just asking questions and just sit

00:22:40.410 --> 00:22:43.480
there. But he needs, you know, somebody who's

00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:45.660
going to coax that out of him a little bit more

00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:48.920
and give him space to talk about things that

00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.900
we don't even hear him talk about with other

00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:52.779
people. She brings up the fact that he's probably

00:22:52.779 --> 00:22:55.220
one of the only Asian kids who would have been

00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:57.859
playing hockey. Right. We don't hear that at

00:22:57.859 --> 00:23:01.660
any other time besides with his mom. And, you

00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:04.299
know, that's like a fundamental, pivotal thing.

00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:08.039
Like you said, Shane just needs someone to move

00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:10.380
the conversation, like just talk about. Your

00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:13.880
deepest feelings right now with me. She's subtle,

00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:16.859
but she doesn't let him stop the conversation.

00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:20.839
Whereas Svetlana's approach, it's much more subtle.

00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:26.299
But both do what they need to do for their...

00:23:26.910 --> 00:23:29.289
they're friends. Like they, they provide the

00:23:29.289 --> 00:23:32.210
sort of shepherding in your words, like that

00:23:32.210 --> 00:23:34.650
their friend needs at that moment. Absolutely.

00:23:34.769 --> 00:23:36.730
And he wants to be able to talk about all these

00:23:36.730 --> 00:23:39.589
things. He wants to be like the, you know, hot

00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:42.109
and horny guy that, that Ilya wants. Like he

00:23:42.109 --> 00:23:44.230
wants, he wants to meet him here, right? Like

00:23:44.230 --> 00:23:46.549
he needs someone to be like, we're doing this

00:23:46.549 --> 00:23:49.130
now. You know, like you can't run away. Like

00:23:49.130 --> 00:23:50.829
this is, this is happening. We're talking about

00:23:50.829 --> 00:23:54.470
it right now. And so that conversation matches

00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:57.029
that. Right. Where, you know, she asked about

00:23:57.029 --> 00:23:59.369
that. Like, has it stopped being fun? Right.

00:23:59.430 --> 00:24:01.349
Nobody's asking him that. Who's asking Shane

00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:03.650
if he's actually had a good time playing hockey?

00:24:03.650 --> 00:24:06.289
Everybody knows he loves hockey. Right. Assumes

00:24:06.289 --> 00:24:08.109
he loves hockey. Is talking to him about it all

00:24:08.109 --> 00:24:09.910
the time. But nobody's like, are you liking this

00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:12.250
right now? You know, like, how is it going? You

00:24:12.250 --> 00:24:14.609
know, how are you feeling? And so us just being

00:24:14.609 --> 00:24:18.799
able to get that. I loved that because we wouldn't

00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:20.880
really know Shane without that conversation he

00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.559
has with Rose, right? We wouldn't know that he's

00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:26.859
struggling with how to cope with the intensity

00:24:26.859 --> 00:24:30.559
of hockey. We don't know how he's feeling really

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.339
about still being one of the only players of

00:24:34.339 --> 00:24:36.740
color within the entire league. We don't really

00:24:36.740 --> 00:24:39.099
know that. And she's like, I'm getting into it.

00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:42.299
Like, let's get into it. I know you. We're talking.

00:24:42.380 --> 00:24:44.500
We're getting to know one another. And this is

00:24:44.500 --> 00:24:46.940
important, right? Like, you're a person, right?

00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:48.740
You're not just an athlete. Rose absolutely does

00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:52.079
it because Shane doesn't talk. No. So, you know,

00:24:52.099 --> 00:24:54.900
like, if we don't get her talking, like, we wouldn't

00:24:54.900 --> 00:24:57.559
hear any of that. I also, one of the things that

00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:02.779
I really enjoy about Rose is she's so confident

00:25:02.779 --> 00:25:06.740
and also curious and her, checks her, like, ego

00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:10.910
out of the situation I'm talking about. specifically

00:25:10.910 --> 00:25:12.650
you know the scene at the restaurant where he

00:25:12.650 --> 00:25:16.509
essentially is coming out to her um and she's

00:25:16.509 --> 00:25:18.829
like you know most of the dudes that i've been

00:25:18.829 --> 00:25:22.670
with have a different reaction to me in bed and

00:25:22.670 --> 00:25:25.869
you're like yeah girl okay so she knows she knows

00:25:25.869 --> 00:25:29.309
like she knows what she's gonna inspire and and

00:25:29.309 --> 00:25:32.990
and you would think oh like it could derail into

00:25:32.990 --> 00:25:35.900
like you don't think I'm hot. Like that's your

00:25:35.900 --> 00:25:38.940
problem, but it doesn't because, and nor would

00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:42.240
I think that at that point, like knowing tyranny's

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:44.660
direction and style, like I knew it wouldn't

00:25:44.660 --> 00:25:46.779
devolve in that, but I just thought it was such

00:25:46.779 --> 00:25:50.799
a beautiful balance of like her knowing herself

00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:57.319
as a person and still being an ally by removing

00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:01.099
herself. from his like coming out story. You

00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:03.039
know what I mean? It wasn't about her. It wasn't

00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:06.259
about her. You know, she is, she's the conduit,

00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:08.660
right? But it's not to say like, you're hurting

00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:11.779
me by doing this. It's like, I'm seeing something

00:26:11.779 --> 00:26:14.059
that I want to ask about. You know, it's like

00:26:14.059 --> 00:26:16.700
really what it is. And so she's like, I just

00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:19.240
want to clear things up. And also the piece of

00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:21.240
it I loved is like, I don't think we can keep

00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:23.880
trying, right? Like she recognizes like, this

00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:26.019
isn't working. So we're going to stop doing it,

00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:28.140
right? Like we're not going to keep. figuring

00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:30.099
it out right so she's an advocate of herself

00:26:30.099 --> 00:26:33.000
enough to be like you know maybe it was working

00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.900
I don't really think so so we're going to stop

00:26:34.900 --> 00:26:38.059
but also now this is completely your space right

00:26:38.059 --> 00:26:41.700
this is your space to you know say or do um what

00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:43.779
you want even if it's nothing right but it's

00:26:43.779 --> 00:26:45.799
also like we're not going to keep pretending

00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:48.759
to do a thing right like we're you know like

00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.380
she's secure enough in herself and so I love

00:26:51.380 --> 00:26:54.299
I love how she navigated that conversation um

00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:58.180
and it makes us confront um you know both misogyny

00:26:58.180 --> 00:27:00.420
and internalized misogyny with that right because

00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:02.779
there's so many of us who I'm sure went into

00:27:02.779 --> 00:27:05.140
that like oh my god she's gonna be mad you know

00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:07.319
he's gonna freak out we don't know what's going

00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:10.099
on and it's like nope I'm fine you know like

00:27:10.099 --> 00:27:13.920
it was truly beautiful yeah it was truly beautiful

00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.119
you know i think prior to that you know he keeps

00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:18.880
bringing up that he loves talking to her and

00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.059
i think that is important right because he loves

00:27:21.059 --> 00:27:24.019
talking to her because she feels safe and understands

00:27:24.019 --> 00:27:27.279
him you know when she gives him the space she

00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:29.079
keeps saying you don't own you don't have to

00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:31.279
no you don't you don't owe me anything like and

00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.119
and that you could see his like nervous system

00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:36.700
calm down because when she when he's like he

00:27:36.700 --> 00:27:41.190
realizes oh shit like she knows And then he's

00:27:41.190 --> 00:27:43.049
like, I'm going to have to talk about this. And

00:27:43.049 --> 00:27:44.710
she's like, you really don't. You actually really

00:27:44.710 --> 00:27:48.309
don't. You know? Yeah. He then does talk about

00:27:48.309 --> 00:27:50.230
it a little bit because she gently, you know,

00:27:50.230 --> 00:27:52.470
gently says like, can I ask you something? Like,

00:27:52.529 --> 00:27:53.970
have you ever been with a man? And he's like,

00:27:54.029 --> 00:27:56.109
yeah. And then he tells her all this stuff. And

00:27:56.109 --> 00:27:59.049
she created that. And that is it. I mean, we

00:27:59.049 --> 00:28:01.630
could talk all day long about. your best moment

00:28:01.630 --> 00:28:03.589
there. But for me, that was one of the most most

00:28:03.589 --> 00:28:06.349
tender, most beautiful moments of the show. What

00:28:06.349 --> 00:28:08.690
really struck me because you had brought up the

00:28:08.690 --> 00:28:11.789
neurodivergence piece. And there's this idea

00:28:11.789 --> 00:28:15.690
that with people who are autistic that You want

00:28:15.690 --> 00:28:19.710
to avoid demands because demands spark the nervous

00:28:19.710 --> 00:28:22.089
system. And if you just think about it, like

00:28:22.089 --> 00:28:25.589
you don't even need to have any sense of being

00:28:25.589 --> 00:28:28.730
neurodivergent. But if you're heightened up here,

00:28:28.829 --> 00:28:31.490
like that one thing, brush your teeth, pushes

00:28:31.490 --> 00:28:35.130
you over, right? Like so if your neurotype is

00:28:35.130 --> 00:28:38.250
always having to fight the world and you're always

00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:42.119
up here, that... demand to share yourself or

00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:44.160
even if it's a pleasant thing, you know, even

00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:46.599
if it's like, I want to know about you because

00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:49.220
I'm interested in you. That is a demand because

00:28:49.220 --> 00:28:52.819
you have to respond to that. And something intrinsically

00:28:52.819 --> 00:28:57.119
about Rose, she lowers the demand. And I just

00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:00.220
thought about it that way now because of what

00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:03.960
you said, Diana, about like, she keeps saying,

00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:07.119
you owe me nothing. Right. And so she immediately

00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:12.400
says, no demands from me you know and maybe that's

00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:14.819
why yeah because I was like and then it becomes

00:29:14.819 --> 00:29:17.099
easier yeah because at that point it's like okay

00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:19.819
you know I can say it I cannot say it um and

00:29:19.819 --> 00:29:22.339
for Shane that's that's perfect right like that

00:29:22.339 --> 00:29:25.339
moment somebody giving him an out is generally

00:29:25.339 --> 00:29:27.859
what he's in You know, like it's like, okay,

00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.599
that's the moment where he's like, okay, well

00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:32.859
now I can decide what it is that I need to do.

00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:34.880
And if we think about the way that his life is

00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:37.400
structured, he doesn't have many of those opportunities,

00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:40.799
right? He is constantly being told what he needs

00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:43.240
to do or he just knows what he needs to do, right?

00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:45.140
And is thinking about that. And so when somebody

00:29:45.140 --> 00:29:48.940
gives him that choice. Even if it's scary now

00:29:48.940 --> 00:29:52.460
to lean into saying exactly who he is, or in

00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:55.200
the cases with Ilya, he's leaning into desire

00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:58.819
because that is what he's being presented with.

00:29:59.019 --> 00:30:02.079
He is then willing to do that. Even if it's a

00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.160
scary thing, he is fine at that point saying,

00:30:05.259 --> 00:30:07.960
okay, this feels like it's safe enough for me

00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.599
to do whatever it is that I want to do. And so

00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:14.880
those reassurances echo a lot of the consent

00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.470
that we hear in those intimacies. scenes, right?

00:30:17.509 --> 00:30:19.269
Where there's opportunities like, are you okay?

00:30:19.490 --> 00:30:22.470
Right. All of these seconds that, that, um, you

00:30:22.470 --> 00:30:24.730
know, he was doing, you know, that's what Rose

00:30:24.730 --> 00:30:26.869
is doing. Right. And consistently doing that

00:30:26.869 --> 00:30:28.869
because she recognizes, you know, where those

00:30:28.869 --> 00:30:30.950
nerves will pop up and things like that. And

00:30:30.950 --> 00:30:32.829
doesn't want him to feel like he has to share

00:30:32.829 --> 00:30:35.849
his whole life, but know that I am a person you

00:30:35.849 --> 00:30:38.390
can share your life with. Yeah. And like, she

00:30:38.390 --> 00:30:40.150
even says in the end, let's be friends. Like

00:30:40.150 --> 00:30:42.970
I, not only like, not like fake friends, like

00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:46.430
good friends. Like I know I have a feeling. that

00:30:46.430 --> 00:30:48.809
you don't have really anyone to talk to about

00:30:48.809 --> 00:30:51.329
things and stuff. And he's like, yeah, things

00:30:51.329 --> 00:30:53.529
and stuff could be tricky for me. So, like, not

00:30:53.529 --> 00:30:55.450
only does she give him space, but she's like,

00:30:55.490 --> 00:30:57.990
I want to be there for you permanently. Like,

00:30:58.069 --> 00:31:00.849
this is non -negotiable. We are now friends.

00:31:00.890 --> 00:31:03.329
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, we're in this now,

00:31:03.470 --> 00:31:05.730
you know? And so, and that's what he needs. You

00:31:05.730 --> 00:31:09.910
need people who fully opt in to you. He needs

00:31:09.910 --> 00:31:12.809
that. He can't do... light things, right? He

00:31:12.809 --> 00:31:15.890
needs somebody who's like, I'm sticking to you

00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:19.390
like glue, right? I am here all the time. And

00:31:19.390 --> 00:31:22.170
that allows him to release some of that pressure,

00:31:22.410 --> 00:31:24.130
just like you were saying, to feel like there

00:31:24.130 --> 00:31:26.710
are no demands there. He could just be whoever

00:31:26.710 --> 00:31:30.730
he wants to be. And we're going to see that even

00:31:30.730 --> 00:31:34.069
more in season two, where life is going to add

00:31:34.069 --> 00:31:37.289
more of that pressure. The fact that he and Ilya

00:31:37.289 --> 00:31:39.910
have now chosen one another means like, okay,

00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:43.150
well, all the stakes are all the stakes. So I'm

00:31:43.150 --> 00:31:47.029
also excited to see what roles will play in that,

00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:50.150
because he still will. need I'm another person

00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:53.210
they will still need these women right like there's

00:31:53.210 --> 00:31:56.130
nothing that you know is set up with with their

00:31:56.130 --> 00:31:58.230
love where it's like okay great all you need

00:31:58.230 --> 00:32:01.289
is like this one person now I'm like what I was

00:32:01.289 --> 00:32:03.529
like y 'all took almost 10 years to communicate

00:32:03.529 --> 00:32:06.609
you definitely are not done you know and you're

00:32:06.609 --> 00:32:08.890
not going to communicate in season two so let's

00:32:09.609 --> 00:32:11.789
No, figure this stuff out. I think it's another

00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:14.569
opportunity to, again, externalize some of that

00:32:14.569 --> 00:32:17.670
internal dialogue that happens because, you know,

00:32:17.690 --> 00:32:19.880
we know that. Because they're together, they're

00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.400
scared of being apart. And so that will lead

00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.640
them the same way that they were, you know, scared

00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:26.799
that they would never be together and so didn't

00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:28.900
communicate, right? They're scared that just

00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:30.940
saying anything is going to break them up, right?

00:32:30.980 --> 00:32:33.559
And so we know that they're, again, going to

00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.599
need these women to externalize whatever it is

00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:39.799
that they're feeling or at least showcase the

00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:42.079
fact that if they're really not talking to anyone,

00:32:42.299 --> 00:32:45.259
how alone they really are, right? So even them

00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:47.480
being pushed away is going to mean something.

00:32:48.109 --> 00:32:50.589
because of the way Tierney has set them up, you

00:32:50.589 --> 00:32:52.190
know, in season one. And that's stuff that I

00:32:52.190 --> 00:32:54.690
love, right? Where make their relationships consequential,

00:32:54.809 --> 00:32:57.210
right? These don't feel like just like, oh, you

00:32:57.210 --> 00:32:58.690
know, you were just doing it there. Like you

00:32:58.690 --> 00:33:00.650
were there for the plot. Like, okay, cool. We're

00:33:00.650 --> 00:33:02.490
like, no, what's going on with y 'all? Come back,

00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:05.130
help them because they need help, you know? And

00:33:05.130 --> 00:33:08.769
so the fact that you can get us to opt into them,

00:33:08.910 --> 00:33:11.690
particularly with Rose, who we meet like halfway

00:33:11.690 --> 00:33:15.390
through episode four and is only in a little

00:33:15.390 --> 00:33:18.289
bit of episode five. The fact that he's able

00:33:18.289 --> 00:33:21.210
to do this where we're compelled by these women,

00:33:21.269 --> 00:33:23.950
understand their importance and their role in

00:33:23.950 --> 00:33:26.069
their lives, and we want to see what happens

00:33:26.069 --> 00:33:28.230
because we know that they will still need them,

00:33:28.329 --> 00:33:32.089
I think is so huge. And it's a testament to allyship,

00:33:32.170 --> 00:33:35.390
right? We know that gay and queer men need women,

00:33:35.549 --> 00:33:38.390
right? And we know that. That's just what it

00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:40.450
is, right? And it's always been like that. It's

00:33:40.450 --> 00:33:43.069
the reason, right, the L is first, right, in

00:33:43.069 --> 00:33:47.190
LGBTQ, right? And so we need... We need women.

00:33:47.329 --> 00:33:50.390
And so the fact that he made them so important,

00:33:50.490 --> 00:33:54.109
so consequential to the story, but mostly to

00:33:54.109 --> 00:33:56.390
just them as people, right? It's not just that

00:33:56.390 --> 00:33:58.670
they feel like characters that we know and love.

00:33:58.730 --> 00:34:00.450
They feel like people, right? They feel like

00:34:00.450 --> 00:34:03.069
people that we care very deeply about, care about

00:34:03.069 --> 00:34:05.569
the relationships that they've built with these

00:34:05.569 --> 00:34:09.650
men is huge. And it feels real, right? It feels

00:34:09.650 --> 00:34:13.110
like what women do in real life. It feels very

00:34:13.110 --> 00:34:16.449
authentic. It is. It does. No, it is. I was like,

00:34:16.449 --> 00:34:18.250
it's, yeah, you know, it's like, what? Women

00:34:18.250 --> 00:34:20.710
helping men communicate? What? You know, and

00:34:20.710 --> 00:34:23.610
so. Never heard of that. That's what we have

00:34:23.610 --> 00:34:26.449
to do. Any kind of men, we're going to be doing

00:34:26.449 --> 00:34:29.449
that, you know? And so to be able to see it and

00:34:29.449 --> 00:34:32.289
not have it come at the expense of those same

00:34:32.289 --> 00:34:34.409
women. Maxine, you mentioned they're not victims

00:34:34.409 --> 00:34:36.710
here, right? Like they're helping the men. Without

00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:40.150
the women, the men truly couldn't get to where

00:34:40.150 --> 00:34:42.289
they are in the show, in their lives, in their

00:34:42.289 --> 00:34:45.030
relationships. But also like, let's take a minute

00:34:45.030 --> 00:34:47.989
for the fact that like the women are still doing

00:34:47.989 --> 00:34:50.849
the emotional labor for the men in the story.

00:34:51.340 --> 00:34:53.219
they're not upset by it. Obviously they're not

00:34:53.219 --> 00:34:56.320
victimized by it, but that's still like, we always

00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.400
do it. We always do the emotional labor for men,

00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.619
for them to process their feelings, you know,

00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:05.179
to allow them to grow. Like, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:08.219
I know. I was like, and that's the part that

00:35:08.219 --> 00:35:10.800
feels like the realist. You know what I mean?

00:35:10.820 --> 00:35:13.539
Where it's like, we got, we got even closer to

00:35:13.539 --> 00:35:16.300
women that we see every day, you know, where

00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:19.849
it's like, even if you get the most. emotionally

00:35:19.849 --> 00:35:22.889
intelligent man, right? And a woman is probably

00:35:22.889 --> 00:35:25.349
somewhere around there. Multiple women are probably

00:35:25.349 --> 00:35:28.510
around there. I love that sort of reciprocality

00:35:28.510 --> 00:35:32.510
that happened, right? Like that he is portraying

00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:37.869
these women in this authentic way because it

00:35:37.869 --> 00:35:40.590
is authentic. And he's saying, yeah, these women

00:35:40.590 --> 00:35:44.480
are doing the emotional work. a woman wrote this

00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:48.719
book you know it's like yes literally yeah and

00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:50.739
it makes total sense you know when we get to

00:35:50.739 --> 00:35:54.239
especially when we get to Elena right and and

00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:57.559
before we even get to who she is on screen like

00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:01.039
just the fact that you know as um Jacob Tierney

00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.739
was writing Elena the only person he thought

00:36:03.739 --> 00:36:06.860
of was Nadine Bobbitt right so he knew this is

00:36:06.860 --> 00:36:09.170
like that's his friend Right. So he's like, if

00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:11.710
I'm thinking about someone's day one friend,

00:36:11.869 --> 00:36:14.570
this is my day one friend. Right. Who's a badass

00:36:14.570 --> 00:36:16.369
and who's going to be like, who doesn't take

00:36:16.369 --> 00:36:18.690
any shit? Like, let's go. That's who I'm thinking

00:36:18.690 --> 00:36:20.489
about. And that's who's playing it. Right. And

00:36:20.489 --> 00:36:23.769
she's playing not necessarily exactly herself,

00:36:23.949 --> 00:36:25.869
but definitely a version of herself. If you've

00:36:25.869 --> 00:36:28.230
seen any interviews or anything with her. One

00:36:28.230 --> 00:36:30.289
of the big things that I focused on when I did

00:36:30.289 --> 00:36:33.389
my rewatch for our conversation was like, how

00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:36.619
are they? introduced right she is a force of

00:36:36.619 --> 00:36:39.599
nature when she walks into the kingfisher and

00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.639
she shows up and she's walking and she sits down

00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:44.800
in the in the booth right and she's cursing out

00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.019
kyle right immediately this is how we meet her

00:36:49.019 --> 00:36:51.679
right and it's like okay well elena's here our

00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:53.940
house when she walks in you know for me i was

00:36:53.940 --> 00:36:56.260
like well the grown -up has arrived okay it's

00:36:56.260 --> 00:36:59.159
how i felt i was like all right well everyone

00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.099
else is doing whatever The grownup is here now,

00:37:02.219 --> 00:37:06.900
you know? And that's very much what it is, right?

00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.639
And even with, you know, her cursing Kyle out,

00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.960
he walks past and she knows the exact food that

00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.840
he wants to eat and she gives it to him. She

00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:19.340
can be a little caustic, right? Have a little

00:37:19.340 --> 00:37:21.440
bit of a razor's edge, right? But that she's

00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.760
immensely kind. She is thoughtful, right? Those

00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:27.699
are things we see instantly, right? And so her

00:37:27.699 --> 00:37:31.789
role in this. is as the adult, right? Like everyone's,

00:37:31.789 --> 00:37:34.550
this is, we're in a rom -com in episode three,

00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:36.510
right? And it's like, oh, this is all really

00:37:36.510 --> 00:37:39.550
cute. The music's great. Everyone's vibing. And

00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:42.409
she's like, what's going on? You know, like what's

00:37:42.409 --> 00:37:45.170
really happening here? You know, like let's figure

00:37:45.170 --> 00:37:49.030
it out. And I also love the use of the television

00:37:49.030 --> 00:37:52.309
for us to get a sense of how she's feeling about

00:37:52.309 --> 00:37:55.309
this relationship. So she comes in, she turns

00:37:55.309 --> 00:37:58.860
the game on. Right. And and where Kip is starting

00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:01.699
to like have this conversation with her and,

00:38:01.780 --> 00:38:04.239
you know, she's validating information. What

00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:06.619
does Maria think? Right. Again, you're seeing

00:38:06.619 --> 00:38:08.739
her thoughtfulness, how she's approaching all

00:38:08.739 --> 00:38:11.079
of this. But you also see that she's open to,

00:38:11.179 --> 00:38:14.280
you know, Scott and Kip. She turns it on. Right.

00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:16.800
She literally puts the game on. Right. And so

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.980
she understands, OK, I need to make space for

00:38:19.980 --> 00:38:23.260
whatever this is. He is into it. Maria is smarter

00:38:23.260 --> 00:38:27.059
than him. She says something's going on. Let's

00:38:27.059 --> 00:38:29.280
see how it goes. Right. But then she also goes,

00:38:29.380 --> 00:38:31.480
well, what's the plan? Figure it out. Get organized.

00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:34.800
Right. And when's his next game? If you want

00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.599
your life to go a particular way, do a thing.

00:38:38.059 --> 00:38:40.940
Right. And make it that way. Step by step. Like

00:38:40.940 --> 00:38:43.260
she's literally leading him step by step. She's

00:38:43.260 --> 00:38:45.440
like, here we go. Let's figure this stuff out.

00:38:45.500 --> 00:38:48.139
Right. And so I love that that's how they establish,

00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:51.849
you know, their friendship. She doesn't. um soften

00:38:51.849 --> 00:38:55.190
herself no for this conversation she's very much

00:38:55.190 --> 00:38:57.110
who she is she's like i'm just gonna ask what

00:38:57.110 --> 00:38:59.210
i asked um and i love the scene in particular

00:38:59.210 --> 00:39:01.150
because it doesn't feel like it's being played

00:39:01.150 --> 00:39:04.210
for the audience right like the audience would

00:39:04.210 --> 00:39:06.289
feel like it needs her to be a little bit like

00:39:06.289 --> 00:39:08.289
be a little nicer you know like you don't need

00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:11.090
to you know be mean to him or And she's like,

00:39:11.150 --> 00:39:12.650
listen, this is how I'm really going to talk

00:39:12.650 --> 00:39:15.389
to you about what's going on. This is our relationship.

00:39:15.769 --> 00:39:18.210
Right. Yes. Like this is how we interact. And

00:39:18.210 --> 00:39:21.650
so I love that she's able to be exactly who she

00:39:21.650 --> 00:39:24.550
is. Yeah. Yeah. She feels like a much more like

00:39:24.550 --> 00:39:27.090
a pragmatic ally. Right. Like she understands

00:39:27.090 --> 00:39:30.610
the high stakes of the relationship. She understands

00:39:30.610 --> 00:39:33.030
the situation. But her support is honest. Like

00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:37.070
it's blunt. Like, what is your plan with my kip?

00:39:37.070 --> 00:39:39.550
We're going to dance. I'm not taking no for an

00:39:39.550 --> 00:39:41.349
answer. And we're going to dance and I'm going

00:39:41.349 --> 00:39:43.570
to. Tell you how I feel. And it's protective,

00:39:43.869 --> 00:39:46.190
too. I mean, they're all protective in different

00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:49.349
ways. I think her role is interesting because

00:39:49.349 --> 00:39:53.389
she's, you know, these Ilya and Shane, they're

00:39:53.389 --> 00:39:56.809
not having come to terms with their sexuality.

00:39:56.889 --> 00:40:01.269
And Svetlana and Rose serve in that, you know,

00:40:01.269 --> 00:40:03.449
they're friends with them. But that's different

00:40:03.449 --> 00:40:06.429
from Elena. And it's kind of interesting to see

00:40:06.429 --> 00:40:10.349
that. how that allyship changes when that role

00:40:10.349 --> 00:40:13.849
changes. The way in which you demonstrate how

00:40:13.849 --> 00:40:18.449
to be someone who is a safe space, but still

00:40:18.449 --> 00:40:22.449
open. to the possibility, even though she's just

00:40:22.449 --> 00:40:24.809
like, what's the plan? You know, like she's thinking

00:40:24.809 --> 00:40:28.590
ahead, but she, but that I loved that sort of

00:40:28.590 --> 00:40:31.949
juxtaposition of these three characters that

00:40:31.949 --> 00:40:34.789
we've been talking about and her specifically

00:40:34.789 --> 00:40:38.210
being in a different, entirely different life

00:40:38.210 --> 00:40:42.489
role. than Lana and Rose. And Rose, yes, because

00:40:42.489 --> 00:40:44.670
I was like, she's living a regular day girl life.

00:40:44.809 --> 00:40:47.389
Like she's a regular person, you know, and Brooke

00:40:47.389 --> 00:40:49.429
is a regular person. And I love that we get,

00:40:49.469 --> 00:40:52.329
you know, their entire friendship group, right?

00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:54.190
They're just real people who are doing things,

00:40:54.429 --> 00:40:57.530
you know, and, you know, it is an ability for

00:40:57.530 --> 00:41:01.309
us to see what it's like to protect a life that

00:41:01.309 --> 00:41:05.019
is open. In the other cases, we're dealing with

00:41:05.019 --> 00:41:07.940
people who are trying to help them navigate living

00:41:07.940 --> 00:41:10.980
a life that is in the closet. She is trying to

00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:14.679
protect him being outside. She's like, I understand.

00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:17.960
And we don't know what the journey was for him

00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:20.619
to get to where he is now. And so that could

00:41:20.619 --> 00:41:24.360
be part of her being protective. Or it could

00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:26.579
just be like, I see you. You're living your life.

00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:29.159
Your dad knows what's going on. You're not having

00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:32.159
to hide anything from any of us. don't want to

00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:34.400
now have to see you having to navigate that.

00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:37.380
Um, and I'm protective of that because that's

00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:39.480
who you are, right? Who we know you as right

00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:42.039
now is who you are. You will have to be a different

00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:45.340
person or a different version of yourself. You

00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:48.019
know, if you decide to, to embark on this relationship,

00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:50.579
she knows what sports are like, right? So it's

00:41:50.579 --> 00:41:52.420
not like she's like, Oh, well, why can't you

00:41:52.420 --> 00:41:54.760
just be doing blah, blah, blah. Like she's, she

00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:57.599
knows what time it is. She understands, right?

00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.059
She understands what the stakes are. Um, but

00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.280
she wants her friends. be happy she doesn't want

00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:07.039
him to go back into hiding and absolutely that's

00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:09.780
not she's not interested in that at all right

00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:11.619
and and he knows that which is why he's like

00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:13.800
oh you know he's always jumping in and saying

00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:16.099
things because he knows you know what she's going

00:42:16.099 --> 00:42:20.139
to say like uh -uh yeah it's like you're in love

00:42:20.139 --> 00:42:22.880
with him period right like we're not having a

00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.480
conversation about it that's what's happening

00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:26.179
Right? Like, what are you going to do about it

00:42:26.179 --> 00:42:28.539
now? Yeah. You know, like, if we're already in

00:42:28.539 --> 00:42:30.639
this mess. Tell me the truth. Tell me the truth.

00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:32.639
Like, tell me what's going on. Like, I have already

00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:35.320
paid attention. I know what's happening. Maybe,

00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:37.860
you know, maybe other friends aren't saying anything.

00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.840
I'm saying something. Listen here. You're not

00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:42.840
telling me things. You're not telling your dad

00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:46.940
stuff. Yeah. Right. She's already seeing him

00:42:46.940 --> 00:42:50.579
hide. And she's, like, picking up on these subtle

00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:53.989
cues before it becomes more overt. And she's

00:42:53.989 --> 00:42:57.329
noticing. She's noticing stuff, right? And they

00:42:57.329 --> 00:42:59.889
give us the time frame, right? In the first conversation

00:42:59.889 --> 00:43:02.230
they have, you know, he says it's, you know,

00:43:02.230 --> 00:43:04.550
that's not until two months away, right? And

00:43:04.550 --> 00:43:06.550
then she's saying, you need to have a thing.

00:43:06.610 --> 00:43:08.889
You're not doing this in perpetuity. I'm not

00:43:08.889 --> 00:43:12.789
watching you spin yourself out, you know, with

00:43:12.789 --> 00:43:15.929
the hope that maybe sometime in the future or

00:43:15.929 --> 00:43:18.469
at some point, you know, you all will be able

00:43:18.469 --> 00:43:21.090
to be out. You know, like she really wants him

00:43:21.090 --> 00:43:24.530
to. be on a path to his happiness. She knows

00:43:24.530 --> 00:43:28.210
what his goals are, right? It's her who we hear

00:43:28.210 --> 00:43:30.829
say he gets the full ride to grad school, right?

00:43:30.909 --> 00:43:33.150
All of these are choices, right? That are made

00:43:33.150 --> 00:43:36.070
on purpose, right? For us to understand who's

00:43:36.070 --> 00:43:38.329
the keeper of information, right? Who knows things,

00:43:38.369 --> 00:43:40.929
who says things, right? It's her voice we hear

00:43:40.929 --> 00:43:43.929
echoed over and over again. And so she is the

00:43:43.929 --> 00:43:47.139
keeper of him. Right. Like, yeah, she says that.

00:43:47.179 --> 00:43:49.079
That's why she's the one who says, like, what

00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:51.500
are you know, what are your intentions? It's

00:43:51.500 --> 00:43:55.380
my kid. Yeah. Right. What are you doing with

00:43:55.380 --> 00:43:58.139
my kid? You know, and somebody needs to care

00:43:58.139 --> 00:44:01.139
for him in that way, especially, you know, in

00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:04.260
front of Scott. Right. He needs to see that.

00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:07.880
And he also needs to see that, like, he needs

00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:11.179
people. And the best way for you to see that

00:44:11.179 --> 00:44:14.260
you need people is to see other people show up.

00:44:14.699 --> 00:44:19.340
For their people. Right. Exactly. That's a great

00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:22.699
point. Yeah. Like somebody is showing up and

00:44:22.699 --> 00:44:25.480
saying like, this is really cute. Love it. What's

00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:34.539
going on? What's actually happening? And so he

00:44:34.539 --> 00:44:36.380
needed to see that, right? Like that needed to

00:44:36.380 --> 00:44:38.400
be part of his journey. Just like, and she spoke,

00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:40.619
you know, she spoke life into him, right? He

00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:43.420
needed to hear that. There's no kiss if she doesn't

00:44:43.420 --> 00:44:45.219
dance with him. That's not happening. I totally

00:44:45.219 --> 00:44:49.539
agree. And I think she is a lot of the reason,

00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:52.719
I mean, you know, we know, okay, Scott compared

00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:56.300
to Shane and Ilya are, he's in a different part

00:44:56.300 --> 00:44:59.340
of his professional journey. Yes. But I really

00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:04.079
do. I think you said it so beautifully that she

00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.780
was part of his coming out too, because she.

00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:13.380
showed up accepted and and like she showed the

00:45:13.380 --> 00:45:17.420
path to what it looks like when you're out in

00:45:17.420 --> 00:45:20.800
the open in your sunshine right absolutely and

00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:23.920
she showed that she would be there for him yeah

00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:26.920
right like that because you also deserve it exactly

00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.539
right and so do you as a massive part of that

00:45:29.539 --> 00:45:32.000
and that's for them Right. Like that's a conversation

00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:34.179
they're having with one another. Kip is watching

00:45:34.179 --> 00:45:36.739
them. Right. But whatever they're saying is for

00:45:36.739 --> 00:45:38.980
them. She did not need to say that, which is

00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:40.679
why I love that she did. Right. Right. Right.

00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:43.900
Right. Encourage him. Yeah. And so that is also

00:45:43.900 --> 00:45:46.380
part of it, that she already showed up like I

00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:49.199
I'm here. Right. Like you have to do right by

00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:53.139
my friends. Yeah. But if you do, I'm here. Right.

00:45:53.260 --> 00:45:55.739
Like it will be it will be all of us. You know,

00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.369
it will be all of us together. Yeah. And Scott

00:45:58.369 --> 00:46:00.230
absolutely needed that because he doesn't have

00:46:00.230 --> 00:46:03.349
anyone. Right. So he needed to know that, like,

00:46:03.349 --> 00:46:06.090
at the, you know, at the tiniest bit, at least

00:46:06.090 --> 00:46:08.489
I know it could be us. Right. She already knows

00:46:08.489 --> 00:46:10.909
that information. Right. And he doesn't freak

00:46:10.909 --> 00:46:12.849
out, which is also another part. Like, that's

00:46:12.849 --> 00:46:14.590
something Frosted Pants had to do as well. Like,

00:46:14.610 --> 00:46:16.630
he could have just been like, what's going on?

00:46:16.710 --> 00:46:19.070
Like, now she knows. Right. He didn't really

00:46:19.070 --> 00:46:21.849
do that. He was like, OK. You know, why is she

00:46:21.849 --> 00:46:25.320
up in our business? Exactly. I think he recognized

00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:28.719
who she is, right, as that force, you know, and

00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:31.300
saying, like, somebody's going to clock it, you

00:46:31.300 --> 00:46:33.559
know, and if this is the person who clocked it,

00:46:33.619 --> 00:46:36.639
it's fine. Let's move the clock forward, please,

00:46:36.820 --> 00:46:39.980
you know, and that's really what the women do,

00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:42.099
you know, and she absolutely does it because,

00:46:42.219 --> 00:46:45.820
again, if that dance doesn't happen, if she doesn't

00:46:45.820 --> 00:46:49.219
tell him those words, right, the words we know

00:46:49.219 --> 00:46:52.190
that Jacob picked on purpose. Right. For for

00:46:52.190 --> 00:46:55.389
her to say none of the rest of this is happening.

00:46:55.469 --> 00:46:58.230
Right. And if that doesn't happen, then Shane

00:46:58.230 --> 00:47:00.429
and Eliana don't happen. Right. And so, again,

00:47:00.530 --> 00:47:03.809
we see like how consequential women are. Right.

00:47:03.849 --> 00:47:07.010
Not just, you know, them showing up, but them

00:47:07.010 --> 00:47:09.550
saying what needs to be said. Right. And whether

00:47:09.550 --> 00:47:11.909
that's I'm always going to be here for you. So

00:47:11.909 --> 00:47:13.909
do what you need to do. I'm always going to be

00:47:13.909 --> 00:47:16.369
here for you. So say what you need to say. I'm

00:47:16.369 --> 00:47:18.599
always going to be here for you. So you better

00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.119
act right. Whatever it is, you know, like they

00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:24.179
are the ones to do that. And we need that. That's

00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:26.159
how these women show up for them, you know, and

00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:28.760
say like, I will wrap my arms around you. Right.

00:47:28.820 --> 00:47:30.880
But you still need to do whatever it is that

00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:32.199
you need to do. You need to do some of the work.

00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:34.320
I will do it, but also like you do something.

00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:38.099
Yeah. Exactly. Like without Rose, Shane may have

00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:40.139
never confronted the truth. Without Svetlana,

00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:42.980
Ilya may not have survived the truth. Right.

00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:45.900
Without Elena and Maria. Right. Like the world

00:47:45.900 --> 00:47:48.500
may never accept. them around them right so like

00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:52.199
the their romances are held together by these

00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:55.800
women you know like because like we've said women

00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:58.840
are gonna make the world go round whether in

00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.619
whatever space that they're in I want to thank

00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:04.500
you so much for coming on the show. I think you're

00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:07.260
so wonderful and I love your theories and I love

00:48:07.260 --> 00:48:10.539
your analysis and your stories and how you write.

00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:12.840
I loved our conversation today. Thank you so

00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:16.539
much for coming. Maxine, tell people where they

00:48:16.539 --> 00:48:20.500
could find you. Yeah, tell people. Well, you

00:48:20.500 --> 00:48:24.969
can find me on threads at MaxineMaxineNYC. And

00:48:24.969 --> 00:48:26.969
then you can find me in terms of the writing

00:48:26.969 --> 00:48:30.289
it is that I'm doing, as well as podcast appearances

00:48:30.289 --> 00:48:33.630
like this on my website, which is MaxineIAwrites

00:48:33.630 --> 00:48:37.030
.com. Oh, awesome. Thank you so much. Have a

00:48:37.030 --> 00:48:40.730
great evening. Take care. Bye -bye. Diana, you

00:48:40.730 --> 00:48:44.349
always somehow find the best guests for us. Talking

00:48:44.349 --> 00:48:48.230
to Maxine was wonderful. Thank you so much for...

00:48:48.570 --> 00:48:51.750
Finding her and bringing her on our show. I have

00:48:51.750 --> 00:48:54.869
to tell all the listeners this. I am not social

00:48:54.869 --> 00:48:58.909
media savvy. And so the person who is the half

00:48:58.909 --> 00:49:03.030
of us that does all of it is Diana. And she's

00:49:03.030 --> 00:49:06.989
amazing at it and just finds a way to connect

00:49:06.989 --> 00:49:10.670
us in the best way in, you know, finding people

00:49:10.670 --> 00:49:13.590
who really love the show like we do, like our

00:49:13.590 --> 00:49:17.269
audience does so. Thank you. And Maxine was a

00:49:17.269 --> 00:49:20.010
wonderful guest. And for me, I think she really

00:49:20.010 --> 00:49:22.530
crystallized something about the women in the

00:49:22.530 --> 00:49:25.530
show is that they're not just allies in that

00:49:25.530 --> 00:49:29.190
they provide like a very, you know, a place where

00:49:29.190 --> 00:49:31.289
these men can kind of dump their feelings out.

00:49:31.349 --> 00:49:35.809
They also actively engage in not keeping these

00:49:35.809 --> 00:49:38.989
men stuck in where they are. Because face it.

00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.239
They might be if they're not there. You know

00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:43.039
what I mean? You make a good point. Like the

00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:45.579
women love the men enough to push them forward.

00:49:45.739 --> 00:49:48.199
And they do that without losing themselves. That's

00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:50.619
what I keep coming back to, that these women

00:49:50.619 --> 00:49:52.920
are fully realized and their careers and their

00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:54.659
confidence in their own lives. They're not like

00:49:54.659 --> 00:49:56.840
walking around trying to get these men to fill

00:49:56.840 --> 00:49:58.900
some sort of holes, you know, in their lives

00:49:58.900 --> 00:50:01.480
or anything like that. They don't let like they're

00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:03.139
not sitting around like waiting for the men to

00:50:03.139 --> 00:50:04.420
figure it all out. They're like, you're going

00:50:04.420 --> 00:50:05.760
to figure this out and I'm going to help you.

00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:09.800
And then it really makes me think about the women

00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:12.500
in our own lives who've done that for us. As

00:50:12.500 --> 00:50:14.760
someone who didn't maybe grow up with a lot of

00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:18.760
friends, it's been such a joy to have made friends

00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:22.519
in other moments of my life, especially unexpectedly,

00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:26.340
especially as adults. Wonderful. groups of women

00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:29.699
that really sustain me has just been a joy because

00:50:29.699 --> 00:50:32.460
they're the ones who tell me, you know, what

00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:34.840
I need to do. They hold me up when I'm down,

00:50:35.019 --> 00:50:37.300
but they're also, you know, they provide the

00:50:37.300 --> 00:50:39.340
push. The push that we all need, you know, like

00:50:39.340 --> 00:50:43.519
I'm the pusher, but I also have women in my life

00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:45.539
who tell me like, hey, Diana, get your shit together.

00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:47.559
And this is what you should be doing. Women are

00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:50.420
just perfect angels and deserve the best. So

00:50:50.420 --> 00:50:52.039
that's it. That's all I want to say about women.

00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:54.900
Perfectly imperfect. And I love that. I love

00:50:54.900 --> 00:50:55.579
that the show does that. I don't know why you

00:50:55.579 --> 00:50:57.539
keep saying women are imperfect. They are perfect.

00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:00.219
They are. No, but they are. They are perfect.

00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.019
But the show, I feel like the whole idea that,

00:51:04.019 --> 00:51:07.059
like, you have to be this angel to be considered

00:51:07.059 --> 00:51:10.440
worthy is not one that the show subscribes to.

00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:12.599
Right, right, right. But we are perfect. We are

00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:15.039
perfect, obviously. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:19.139
So speaking of perfect things, sunshine. What

00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:21.380
is your moment of sunshine this week, Diana?

00:51:22.030 --> 00:51:24.650
So like, honestly, my moment of sunshine is the

00:51:24.650 --> 00:51:27.929
women in my life. I would just like to acknowledge

00:51:27.929 --> 00:51:32.329
all the women in my life from my mom to my friends,

00:51:32.389 --> 00:51:37.090
my daughter, like I have surrounded myself after

00:51:37.090 --> 00:51:40.489
all these years with the most beautiful, inspiring,

00:51:41.289 --> 00:51:47.190
strong, wise, witty, funny women. I am so lucky.

00:51:47.230 --> 00:51:49.710
I am so grateful. And like my moment of sunshine

00:51:49.710 --> 00:51:54.000
is the women. So in addition to being a Women's

00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:57.559
History Month, it's also Read Across America

00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:00.440
Month. And if you have small children, schools

00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:03.519
do all sorts of stuff. My kids and I went to

00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:08.920
a cat shelter to read to 110 cats. So it was

00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:13.340
a very cute experience. So that was really fun

00:52:13.340 --> 00:52:16.539
to watch my kids. That's so cute. I love that.

00:52:17.789 --> 00:52:20.949
That's so cute. I love that. Cute and slightly

00:52:20.949 --> 00:52:24.150
strange. Slightly strange. I did not know such

00:52:24.150 --> 00:52:27.849
a program existed. And now we are fully into

00:52:27.849 --> 00:52:31.849
reading to these cats every other weekend. Awesome.

00:52:31.989 --> 00:52:34.190
That's a beautiful moment of sunshine. Next week

00:52:34.190 --> 00:52:36.349
on Everyone Deserves Sunshine, we're talking

00:52:36.349 --> 00:52:38.889
about emotional resurrection. So subscribe now

00:52:38.889 --> 00:52:41.610
wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want

00:52:41.610 --> 00:52:43.869
to say hi to Girls in the Crease, find us on

00:52:43.869 --> 00:52:46.510
Instagram, Facebook, and Threads at Everyone

00:52:46.510 --> 00:52:49.619
Deserves Sunshine. Or email us at everyone deserves

00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:52.699
sunshine at gmail .com. New episodes drop on

00:52:52.699 --> 00:52:54.159
Mondays. See you then.