Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana.
And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease.
This is episode six. We're talking about anti
-dystopia today. We're like really just diving
right in. You know what I mean? We're jumping
in. None of that like setting it up, lubrication.
Today we're doing what Jacob Tierney did. We're
scrapping the prep. You're not watching how it
gets made. You're just seeing the final product.
Correct. And you know what? That is important
here today because we have a lot to talk about.
And we also have an interview later. So we got
to get started. So we wanted to talk about anti
-dystopia because, I mean, I don't know. It's
weird, right? Because the world is so great and
we really just like live in a perfect utopian
world. So like, why would we need anti -dystopia?
In all seriousness, we wanted to talk about anti
-dystopia because the world is shit. and it is
quite dystopian um starting to feel more so every
single day and This genre of romance and the
show specifically gave us so much joy in a world
where joy is so scarce, right? I want to say
I like that, but I actually don't like that at
all. I don't like that. Which part do you not
like? All of it. But I understand what you're
saying. This show in this moment has brought
so many people like this incredible sense of
joy. And we talk a lot about what. or favorite
words, nuance, earnestness, authenticity, all
of that, right? Okay. So I just want to read
something that Jacob Tierney said that. also
just speaks to the earnestness, authenticity,
and nuance. And obviously, I'm reading this after
I watched the show in its entirety, maybe a couple
of times. So here's what he says about this romance
in general. This is a genre that women love and
write and read and are primary consumers of.
It just doesn't get treated with a lot of respect,
and nor do the people who make it, nor do the
people who adapt it. So I think what they, as
in... the people are responding to, or at least
I hope, is the fact that we came to this pretty
full -hearted and as fans and as people who want
to honor this material and want to honor the
genre and make it as romantic as we can. That's
certainly what I wanted to do. Oh, I love that.
I know. I love that word, full -hearted. You
know, I feel like full hearts. are a rarity now.
I think all of us feel that sense of like drain
that there's not even room to think about. things
that are joyful in nature. Perhaps not that there's
not room, but like it almost feels a little bit
like guilty to consume media that's joyful. Right.
Because you're like, how can you possibly enjoy
something when the world's on fire? And I love
that he thought of it this way, because like,
you know, like side note, like I always I don't
like cooking. I hate cooking. Like I hate cooking
so much. Right. You're looking at me funny, but
you're going to understand where I'm going with
this. Right. And some of my friends love cooking.
They love cooking and their family. always say
like whatever you make is delicious and then
whatever I make is like either burnt or like
just not good and I think it's because you know
people who love cooking put love into their cooking
and so when you're eating it you're like oh my
god this is delicious because it's made with
love and that is how Jacob Tierney made the show
it was made with love right and that's why it's
so good and people are enjoying it so much. You
could taste the love. And that's how you can
taste the love in people's cooking. Not in my
cooking, because I'm not making it with love.
I'm making it with like, I cannot believe I fucking
have to make dinner again tonight. But other
people who love it, like it tastes good, right?
You're now going with non sequitur analogies.
I really like this for us. You mentioned guilt,
Diana. And the other thing that makes me feel
guilty is the escapism that I naturally crave
during these times. my brain wants to leave.
You want to check out of the existential dread.
Yeah. But that also means sometimes you check
out of like real life happening in front of you.
Like things you need to fucking do. Need to do.
And things also that are important to like tether
you to the world, you know, in a good way. And
you miss it because you're like seeking this
like almost high, you know, escapism high. I
am still like very much into escapism with all
of this. Like I've definitely been a little bit
like escaping my everyday responsibilities in
the world. I think most of it has to do with
the fact that it is bringing all of us so much
joy because we're so used to not feeling that
much joy all the time, right? If you escape and
the new return depleted, To the real world. That
is ostensibly not helpful if you have responsibilities.
But if you escape and you come back more rejuvenated,
which I would. say like for you like having known
you for this long and having worked with you
in other places where our creativity and our
very specific skill set is needed I see a difference
in the way your creativity has been utilized
and exploded with this where you look and seem
happier You know what I mean? That, I think,
is good. So today we're going to be talking to
Jenka, who wrote this absolutely fabulous and
thought -provoking article called Heated Rivalry's
Anti -Dystopian Art. Welcome, Jenka. Thank you
for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm
happy to be here. Tell us a little bit about
yourself. Tell us how you got into the show.
So way back in the day, I was originally a film
student, which sort of ties into how we landed
here. I moved to LA. I worked in film like a
little tiny bit, but pretty quickly got into
producing music festivals and nightlife events.
And I did that for like about a decade. And then
I was in marketing and advertising. And then
I ended up in technology doing user experience
design, whether it's film, whether it's music
festivals, whether it's applications on your
phone, it's all experience. design. And so that
is kind of a lens through which I look at both
what I do professionally and then also the way
that I look at culture and the entertainment
that we see. And that kind of led me to writing
this essay. After I wrote it, I looked back and
like a year ago, I had been, I had started like
posting about how I was seeing this trend of
just constant brutality and violence and things
you don't even it would be comedies you'd be
watching a comedy and suddenly there would be
gun violence that would be ostensibly supposedly
for laughs or I was watching this show called
Wheel of Time and there was this particularly
released it out to me. There was just like this
almost pornographic sequence of two women killing
each other over and over and over in like various
ways. It's like a dream sequence where they keep
dying. But it was just like such a luxuriation
in the graphicness, the visual lushness of watching
this like. intense violence and brutality. And
it was presented in the guise of entertainment
and beautifully shot. And, you know, you're really
supposed to react to it in this kind of like
enjoyment way. But what it was showing you and
depicting was just incredibly disturbing. And
that's just kind of like throughout all of our
culture, throughout all of our entertainment,
all of our media. And we actually almost take
it as a given. This was already things that were
on my mind a year ago and before that. And then
when the show. came out when I saw it, it was
like just a referendum on everything that I had
been thinking about in this, in this vein. And
to your question about how I got into the show,
how I found it. So initially I'd been seeing
ads. I think we all had sort of been like seeing
ads like on Instagram or something like, Oh,
he did rather than like, uh, what I, I thought
it was either going to be one of two things.
I thought it was either going to be like this
really saccharine hallmark kind of like young
adult sort of thing, or I thought it was going
to be euphoria. Like, I thought it was going
to be this, like, really bleak, depressing, like,
something that was going to make you feel like
shit after you watched it. And I saw somebody
post something about it on threads that piqued
my curiosity. And, like, this reaction to it
seems like not either one of those things that
I think that it is. And then I watched it, and,
like, you know, the rest is history. I never
made it through Euphoria. I watched, like, three
or four episodes, and I couldn't. It was so dark.
I couldn't do it. I know people love it. I know
people are obsessed with it. I felt the same
way about Game of Thrones. I couldn't do it.
Totally. I didn't watch either one. I watched,
I think, two episodes of Euphoria for those exact
same reasons because I think I was so aware of
seeing these dystopian tropes in everything.
being is like so the other part of this is that
um i also studied hypnosis and hypnotherapy and
so i understand what these visions are doing
to us in a kind of like a trance -like way like
what kind of state they're putting us into and
what kind of vision they're suggesting to us
and i just i just don't want to be hypnotized
into that like i don't want to go into those
worlds can you tell us what What dystopia means
to you and what anti -dystopia means to you?
Dystopia, I think, you know, the sort of the
very generic kind of vision, like idea that comes
to mind when you say that word is like a sci
-fi future. But if you think about things like
minority report, like how much of that has just
become a roadmap for where we've ended up? Oh,
yeah. Right. Right. So it seems speculative,
but that vision primes us to. accept that that
is what the future is going to be. And so when
it arrives, like, well, no, no, here it is. And
so that's one part of it. But the other part
of it is that I also think there are shows that
aren't necessarily science fiction. They're not
speculative. They're like Euphoria. They're set
in a world that is like ostensibly like the world
we're in now, but they're so full of cynicism.
They are like characters experiencing a genuine
human connection or emotion, even when that does
somehow manage to like squeak through. is rewarded
with pain and punishment and how silly to have
expected connection. Like, aren't you such a
sophisticated person that you would have recognized
this is not reality, right? Like, it's like,
you know, you need to experience pain and tragedy
for it to have value, right? Think about these
Oscar movies that win, like, these actors and
actresses are supposed to be doing, like... physically
challenging or emotionally challenging things
in order to like be worthy of art. I think there
was literally just like a couple of days ago,
an interview with Jacob Tierney, and he was saying
how like characters on the shows aren't allowed
to like have sex and be happy. If they have sex,
they must suffer. And, you know, he said it in
the. you know, in the milieu of like queer narratives.
But I think that is also, that is pervasive throughout,
you know, hetero narratives too. Like, you know,
the whole cliche of like any sort of like thriller
or horror story. It's like the girl that has
sex is the one that dies. Like Sarah Michelle
Gellar in I Know What You Did Last Summer. A
trope that is this and you know what to expect
when you see that. So I think there's something
really subversive about the vision that heated
rivalry presented in contrast to all of these
things that we are primed to expect. So you get
into that a little bit in your article about
anti -dystopian art. So tell me now, how does
heated rivalry check all those anti -dystopian
boxes? A friend of mine is a futurist. Her name
is Monika Bielskita, and she put together a few
years ago. What is a futurist? So a futurist
is like what Monika does, for example, she works,
she actually worked with movies, movie studios.
If you're a movie and you want to create a vision
of the future for like some future, you know,
sci -fi thing, like what is that going to look
like? The world building of that. So it's, that's
kind of. the the idea um and so she put together
what she called the protopia futures framework
she had this kind of like these dimensions of
what protopia is and i took a similar approach
in how i wrote my essay because it's structured
into these three sections and the first one is
sex and pleasure uh the the second one is connection
and intimacy and the third one is uh joy and
creativity these are all aspects of what is kind
of the antithesis of this dystopian worldview
because even if you think about something like
creativity if you think about the street in a
sci -fi future vision are there murals on it
Is there like actual human creativity that is
constant everywhere? Do you see that in the future?
And so I took these kind of dimensions of leaning
into this, leaning into sex that is actually
pleasurable and full of mutuality rather than
so much of the sex that we are exposed to in
media, which is non -consensual sex, sex we don't
actually want to see. It's like disturbing, right?
Why is it beamed into our eyeballs? That's why
I couldn't watch the Game of Thrones. It was
just all assault. And yeah, it's awful. And that's
entertainment. Be entertained. People love it.
I took those dimensions as kind of the... like
anchor points around which to tell the story
of how heated rivalry approaches creating the
the experience design of its world and of the
the show that you're you're experiencing through
these very different lenses relative to you know
what a typical sort of dystopian cynical view
would be is there is there something about something
that makes something like anti -dystopian art
versus just like happy and fluffy. Joyful. Yeah,
joyful. Yeah. Or is it the time we're living
in that makes it as such? I think in the case
of Heated Rivalry specifically, I think it was
just such a dramatic departure. And it's evidence,
I think, in the way that I'm sure you guys have
seen this too, where if you watch. people's reactions
to what when they talk about what they were thinking
or expecting to happen as they were watching
the um the episodes even up until the very last
minute literally our heroes are riding off into
the sunset together and people thought that there's
gonna be a car accident and throughout then people
thought that their phones were gonna get hacked
and that their messages were gonna get leaked
and they would get discovered or that you know
shane being when he comes out to his parents,
that that was going to end in some sort of traumatic
kind of way. And I think at every given moment
throughout this arc of the show, where we are
just so primed to expect these tropes to head
into something devastating, it took the decision
to be like, but... what if actually something
positive happens and not something saccharine
and like hallmarky because there's still a lot
of like emotional depth and emotional complexity
it's not it's not just on the surface of things
and so i think i think it's treating the positive
and the good potential outcomes with the same
depth and nuance as you would the sort of the
sophisticated dark outcomes um I think is a big
part of that. It's that difference of like, it's
just a Hallmark Kids kind of show, which this
is definitely not, versus, you know, like that
kind of like prestige entertainment that actors
want to get awards, you know, they think they're
going to get awards for and it lets them emote
and stretch their craft, right? This is that
for sure. So it has that element of sophistication
and depth and nuance, but it says, but what if
we explored also positive things happening? in
the way that they do in people's lives. You know
what it is also, I think, is that like you do
feel that sense of like your stomach swooping,
like something bad is going to happen because
the setting, right? You're like, it's a professional
sports. You're like, okay. And then it's like
a queer story and you're like, oh, and then it's
like an immigrant from a not very LGBTQ friendly
country. You're like, oh, like it feels like
it's. like setting up for these red flags of
tragedy to happen. And it doesn't happen. You
know, I was thinking about the difference between
maybe like Ted Lasso and Schitt's Creek, which
to me evoke similar feelings of happiness and
joy. If either of you watch those shows and what
makes it different, I think for me, I mean, although
Schitt's Creek does have a really strong queer
story through it, but it's like, it feels like
there's all these like. possible places where
tragedy is going to happen by the sheer setup
of the story. I do think a lot of it is just
how we've been primed. Like, there are templates
to writing movies. Like, Act 1, Act 2, Act 3.
It's a five -act structure. This is the beat
that has to happen by Act 2 so that you get the
payoff in Act 5. And there are very sort of expected
things that transpire. And also... especially
and a lot of this has been talked about kind
of in the current entertainment environment in
terms of like you know we're all on our phones
when we're watching shows and so how do those
shows need to um respond to that with ever even
more intensely cliche um you know things that
they that they give us as we keep watching shows
that are you know outputted through the same
template and movies that are outputted through
the same template kind of we as audiences we
know what we're gonna expect and so it's i think
a lot of it is also playing and subverting that
it's it's converting our own expectations that
come from a place of us existing in a media environment
that has taught us what to expect yeah yeah because
we've been conditioned to expect the worst honestly
we get so few pieces of media and art that make
us feel pure joy. This is why this one hits on
such like a visceral level. Do you think that
there's anything about the anti -dystopia genre
or art that gets like delegitimized because it's
associated with a feminine genre? How like the
very thing that makes it so powerful is what
gets dismissed as unserious? I know we talked
a little bit about that, but... Do you have anything
else to add? Yeah, I think there's a lot of conversation
that has gone on around like specifically the
romance genre. I wish anti -dystopia was a genre.
It needs to be. Maybe this is it. This is the
beginning. I think what this show does lean into
are tropes that are very expected sort of romance
genre. conventions in a really in a good way
and that obviously is a genre that is completely
dismissed as unserious and unworthy of any kind
of like serious consideration because it is primarily
created by women consumed by women and obviously
anything that is primarily created by and for
women is de facto unserious. I actually think
the really interesting part is in the adaptation
is the way that the female characters were expanded
in the show relative to the book in like really
really nuanced and profound ways that they showed
Women were, you know, at any given, again, from
the sort of trope expectations, at any given
moment where you could have expected, oh, this
is the villain. This is the person that's going
to stand in the way of, this is going to be the
foil that is the obstacle in the way of the relationship
that the two star -crossed lovers we want to
get together are going to have. At every given
point that that could have been where it went,
it didn't go there. In your essay, you say, you
describe cynicism as prophylactic. And actually,
this really spoke to me. Diana, I don't know
if it speaks to you because we are very different
people, but both of us have this very common
thread. And I think this is why that makes us
like not just friends, but like effective partners
and things like this. And, you know, stuff that
we did like worked on from like activism. portion,
you know, you said cynicism is prophylactic.
And I always told Diana, like, I'm the kind of
person that isn't doing what I'm doing because
I have this like rosy vision of the world or
this innate sense of optimism. I'm like gritting
my teeth and like pushing, you know, like I.
have a streak of like the misanthrope in me.
I feel like I'm like, you can do better humanity,
you know, and I have that sense of cynicism as
prophylaxis in my head because it's protective,
right? It is protective. So like. Tell me a little
bit more about that and how that ties into what
heated rivalry is kind of subverting. So the
way that cynicism is prophylactic is that it
keeps us from feeling anything too much. Right.
It's like, well, if you expect the worst anyway
and nothing can ever be better anyway, you sort
of protected yourself from disappointment. But
you've also precluded yourself from being able
to actually. feel what it feels like when things
really do go well and the embodied sense of that
and actually when I was writing that I was thinking
about there's a show that it's like these very
sort of like superficial characters and on one
of the episodes this other character showed up
who's like this very sweet sincere genuine person
And one of the characters didn't even know what
to do with this. And as they were sort of just
kind of like starting to open up to this person,
the show killed him. He died in an accident.
So, haha, joke's on you. If you feel anything,
it's going to be bad. What a silly, naive thing
to have thought that you could be allowed to
feel something real. That cynicism protects you
from venturing into this territory where you
could get hurt. of the show is just like such
deep, genuine emotion and yearning and desire
that is really authentic. It's not like objectified
desire. It's very real. And we go through the
ups and downs with these characters as they kind
of get in their own way and deny themselves.
And at the end, they are able to get... past
this they're able to have genuine conversations
and that lead to this real connection and the
the takeaway from that is that this is possible
if you follow what you're really feeling and
don't try to mask it and don't try to protect
yourself from your own feelings and desires good
things are also possible from that yeah yeah
you know i've always said that dystopia was my
most favorite genre i i consumed dystopia all
of it all the time since like probably high school
maybe even before and Then when I was teaching,
most of the literature that we are exposed or
that we expose students to in the curriculum.
Right. Because, you know, the curriculum is pretty
much set is dystopian literature like 1984 and
Animal Farm and Brave New World, the lottery.
I mean, everything we read in high school, even
maybe in middle school, is dystopian. And often
my students, I mean, even Great Gatsby. I mean,
it's not dystopian, but it's depressing. And
my students always it never failed every year.
like, why are we reading all this depressing
stuff? Like, can't you give us something happy?
I guess my my response to them was like, well,
this is this is where you're learning, right?
Like you're learning these like ideas of what
the world could be like if we don't do something
about it. To me, it always almost like a warning.
It's warning you to what might happen. But I
was reading your article. You said something
like it like desensitized. us and it conditions
us to accept what is already happening right
it's not even like you read the dystopia you
learn from it and then you prevent it from happening
it's the opposite you read the dystopia you are
conditioned to understand it and expect it to
happen and then when it does happen you're like
okay well i read about this so this is just how
it is right like it makes sense i guess because
I haven't or we haven't seen too much anti -dystopian
art or things that bring you so much joy you
mentioned Anusha like Ted Lasso so joyful why
is it so popular because it is so joyful right
when you see that I think that's why like it
hits you on such a level like we said right because
like you're so not used to it like watching The
Handmaid's Tale like after the first two seasons
I couldn't do it like I it took I finished it
eventually I did finish it but I skipped like
two or three years between because I said to
my girlfriends like I can't gives me such anxiety.
We're living in it. So why do I also need to
see it on TV on top of already living in it?
The really interesting question is, think about
all the people that it takes to create that.
It takes so many people to bring that vision
to life. And what is that experience that it's
creating, not just for the people who are making
that world, but for the people who are consuming
it? vision like how many people did it take to
put that vision into the world that lets people
essentially thematically experience brutalization
of women for what to to to accomplish what like
we learned something we didn't know like we know
yeah we know we've seen it we've heard it like
when you said like presents a violent degraded
world has likewise turned sex a fundamental aspect
of humanness into a plot device for violence
and degradation right so like you said pleasure
becomes torture in these in this dystopian world.
Yeah. So I like really enjoy dystopia, but right
now it just, as you said, it feels like this
bleakness is like completely unending and unsolvable
sometimes. And, you know, you're, you're like,
oh my God, should. darkness just win because
I'm so exhausted. I joke to our friends, like
if a la Matrix, if like the AI wins and then
burn the sleep pod, you know, and I'm like, my
brain can finally rest, you know, I'll probably
like drain the system of energy while it re -energizes
me. But it's just like, you just want to catch
your breath, right? That's what I mean. You're
like. It's just, I just need to breathe. It's
not nihilistic because I don't think I'm that.
It's almost like you have this fatigue for these,
you know, kind of like really thematically heavy,
but really, truly tragic, dystopian futures,
right? Because it really feels like at this moment,
you're living it and you're not really sure how
to get out of it or if we'll get out of it. I
think for me, that is such a key thing. Because
it has depth and, you know, intimacy, personal
stakes, but you don't feel like you have to,
you know, save the world while you're in it.
You know, it makes the world small enough. Like,
you can have the spectrum of human emotion and
it just be about these two people kind of living
sort of pseudo -normal lives. Well, that's the
thing that I wrote kind of at the end is that
what... you experience with heated rivalry is
something that feels very different like like
literally in your body somatically you feel this
journey that you've been on with these characters
and you know i i talk about it's like you've
literally just like experienced falling in love
mirror neurons are firing you have been on this
journey with them and what it shows isn't The
possibility of a future that looks different
and looks so futuristic and what kind of crazy
contrivances can we think about what could happen?
It feels different. It feels different from how
we're used to entertainment making us feel. It
feels different from how just any given thing
we're looking at on our screen, be it entertainment
media or news media, anything we're seeing on
our screen makes us feel. It feels like a crazy
futuristic experience. It's so different from
what we're having now. It can only possibly exist,
even though the show is, I guess, set in the
past. But it feels like a departure from the
present. And our minds sort of think of that
as a future. It's sort of like bittersweet to
think about. Like, are we so aching for just
this like... small stories with deep personal
connections? And the answer to that is yes. Do
you think that anti -dystopia A, you mentioned
that it's not a genre. Do you think it can be
a genre? And is it contagious? Like, will we
get more of this? Because, you know, you mentioned
in your article that like Hollywood basically
does not do this, whether they can't or they
don't think people want it, whatever that may
be. I think this proved to them that people want
it. But I do wonder, like, is Hollywood going
to take this and say, oh, this work, this is
like a winning formula. We want to do this. Or
are they going to say like. oh, it's a one -off,
this can be made here, right? Like, what do you
think? I think it's definitely too big to ignore
that there's something here. I don't know to
what extent Hollywood, the Hollywood system,
would understand what it is. particularly about
this that that created this kind of reaction
also to you know to some extent it's kind of
like lightning in a bottle like i think there's
going to be a very heated interest in uh in romance
for sure it's it's too it's too big to ignore
and i was just watching this old interview with
jacob tierney from like from 2022 he's talking
about like himself personally um really has a
huge distaste for power dynamics in sexual relationships
and um like he he says it's a huge turn off for
him and that is a very kind of unique uh perspective
when it comes to the entertainment and and movie
and tv tropes that we are exposed to because
We're basically spoon fed Cinderella from the
time we're children. And that is sort of the
template of, you know, this power disparity.
comes with hand in hand with romance. And I think
something that is so particular about the success
of Heated Rivalry is that it leans into showing
romance in a way that we just really don't get
otherwise. People were like, you know, I would
see people like, I just finished Heated Rivalry.
What else can I watch that's like this? And I'm
like, yeah, right? Nothing. Not this. I tried
watching. I tried watching. And I did. I watched
Bridgerton the next because I used to love it.
I watched it. Speaking of power dynamics, speaking
of Cinderella story, this season is the Cinderella
story. They're literally retelling Cinderella
and I am watching it. I liked it. I enjoyed it.
I really did. It was the first thing I've enjoyed
since starting, you know, my fandom here. But
I'm just watching it. I'm like, again, like again,
the same exact thing. And then the way it ends
halfway through, I'm just like. This is why I
love heated rivalry, because this is nothing.
This is not scratching any romantic itch at all.
I think that there is something really universal.
In the same way that people do seem to like power
dynamics within the sexual context, I think people
also really don't like it. And there's a whole
kind of sexual... Perhaps we've been conditioned
to like the power dynamics, just like we've been
conditioned to like dystopia. Exactly. Right.
And it's not even... To me, it's like you can
have these things that... that occur in your
sex life. And it doesn't have to like translate
into some sort of like archetype of this is where
you are. Like this is what, this is the, you
know, hole you fit in. Well, we're keeping that.
We are not editing that out. That is staying.
That is staying. Oh God. I didn't even, yeah.
A box is what I meant. I don't know if that's
better. We are keeping all of this. Audience,
enjoy unfiltered, unedited Anusha. Wow. Welcome.
Welcome to our podcast, Jenka. This is the stuff
that we usually cut out, but not this time. Not
this one. Oh, my God. Right. Like you can have
times like it doesn't have to translate to your
entire life or your entire dynamic. You can have
moments where one person is maybe. in a different
role, and then it can reverse. To me, I think
that's one of the most interesting things about
the way they depict Illya and Shane's sex life,
because clearly Illya is more experienced than
Shane, and it's very clear right away, but it
doesn't... becomes some sort of treaties on their
entire relationship. And it doesn't become a
way for Ilya to exert dominance. It's so clear
that he is so conscious of this potential disparity
that he seeks to neutralize it because it's a
turn on for him to do that. And the thing about
Shane is like, as he says to Rose, like he's
getting exactly what he wants out of this. yeah
relationship and do you know how much like power
and assertiveness you have to have to be able
to get exactly what you want out of a sexual
experience like shane's getting it so he is like
all of these situations where power could be
wielded in a way to create disparity is neutralized
because it turns the people involved in it on
to do that yeah and if that's not anti -dystopian
i don't know what is there we go There we go.
Jenka, thank you so much for joining us today.
I loved our conversation. I love your article.
I read it four times because apparently I do
that now. I reread and rewatch things multiple
times. Yeah, Diana's never looked at anything
twice before and now she only does that. That's
not true. I mean, you should see my copy of 1984.
But anyway, so in your article, you end with
how Shane says to his parents, we just want a
future. And you say, Jenka, you say that he speaks
for all of us. You say he... has broken through
the onslaught of pop culture visions that make
dystopia's cynical, joyless futures seem inexorable
precisely because it is a piece of art that is
not only shows us, but allows us to feel that
another world is truly possible. That lets us
somatically experience a future beyond what exists
now, a future we all actually want. Joy in the
present makes joy in the future. Future seems
plausible. And that, too, is hope. And I just,
like, love that. I love that for us. Because
we all just want hope. It was such a great article.
When you said, I'm writing an article about anti
-dystopia, I'm like, oh. I'm like, yes, it's
perfect. Like I literally, I was like, it's perfect
because this is what we're all feeling. This
shift of like seeing dark, dark, dark, living
in dark, dark, dark, and getting this light,
this joy. So I thank you for writing it. And
I thank you for coming on our podcast and for
giving us your time. This was such a pleasure.
I loved having the opportunity to discuss the
stuff that like previously was just like in my
head. So I'm happy. Thank you so much. Have a
great evening. We'll talk soon. Yes. Thank you
so much. Thank you. Bye -bye. So we have arrived
once again to our moment of sunshine, which is
very apropos given that we've been talking about
dystopia and anti -dystopia. So I'm going to
go first. I'm going to take it. Shocker. Shocker.
My moment of sunshine is an entire evening. We
had a Galentine's party. Oh, you're taking my
moment of sunshine. Listeners, it actually was
Diana because everyone in our group has ADHD
and no one can commit to plans. We often need
Diana to mother hen us into a plan because if
it was us, all we would do is just like say,
let's just show up somewhere. Yeah, let's go
to Philly on a Friday night with no reservations,
with no plans. Let's just figure it out. Oh,
also it's Valentine's Day weekend. We're just
going to show up somewhere. So yes, credit where
credit's due, Diana planned the entire Galentine's
and did a fabulous job, which is why it's my
moment of sunshine. And because I'm this generous,
I will let you share this moment with me. So
it can be awkward moment. Is this why Galentine's
Day present? This is better. This is better.
No, you know what? I'm taking it. I'm stealing
it. It was an awesome night. We went to see a
burlesque show. We went out to dinner. We had
margaritas and tacos. It was delicious. It's
a good moment of sunshine. And it brought us
so much joy, like so much joy. I'm still like
joyful from Friday night. The restaurant was
just so fun. The food was delicious. The entertainment
was. Fantastic. But if we're really talking about
anti -dystopia and the antidote to the hellscape
that is our world, feeling present in a moment,
laughing and... connecting with your friends
like that checked every box so it was just really
fun next week on everyone deserves sunshine we're
talking about queer representation this one is
at the heart of the show obviously and we're
gonna have a guest to help us unwrap all of the
things all of the things the show all of the
strings all of the strings all of the things
so we're excited we're excited subscribe now
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And email us at EveryoneDeservesSunshine at gmail
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you then.