WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.379 Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine. I'm Diana. 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:04.860 And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease. 00:00:05.139 --> 00:00:08.000 This is episode six. We're talking about anti 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.439 -dystopia today. We're like really just diving 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:13.640 right in. You know what I mean? We're jumping 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:18.160 in. None of that like setting it up, lubrication. 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:20.899 Today we're doing what Jacob Tierney did. We're 00:00:20.899 --> 00:00:24.760 scrapping the prep. You're not watching how it 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:26.820 gets made. You're just seeing the final product. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:29.120 Correct. And you know what? That is important 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:31.219 here today because we have a lot to talk about. 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.259 And we also have an interview later. So we got 00:00:34.259 --> 00:00:36.380 to get started. So we wanted to talk about anti 00:00:36.380 --> 00:00:39.520 -dystopia because, I mean, I don't know. It's 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:41.619 weird, right? Because the world is so great and 00:00:41.619 --> 00:00:44.200 we really just like live in a perfect utopian 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:48.299 world. So like, why would we need anti -dystopia? 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:51.219 In all seriousness, we wanted to talk about anti 00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:55.390 -dystopia because the world is shit. and it is 00:00:55.390 --> 00:00:59.549 quite dystopian um starting to feel more so every 00:00:59.549 --> 00:01:04.060 single day and This genre of romance and the 00:01:04.060 --> 00:01:07.879 show specifically gave us so much joy in a world 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:10.799 where joy is so scarce, right? I want to say 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:13.040 I like that, but I actually don't like that at 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:17.459 all. I don't like that. Which part do you not 00:01:17.459 --> 00:01:20.920 like? All of it. But I understand what you're 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:24.000 saying. This show in this moment has brought 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:27.319 so many people like this incredible sense of 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:31.780 joy. And we talk a lot about what. or favorite 00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:35.180 words, nuance, earnestness, authenticity, all 00:01:35.180 --> 00:01:37.819 of that, right? Okay. So I just want to read 00:01:37.819 --> 00:01:41.760 something that Jacob Tierney said that. also 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:45.219 just speaks to the earnestness, authenticity, 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:48.939 and nuance. And obviously, I'm reading this after 00:01:48.939 --> 00:01:52.859 I watched the show in its entirety, maybe a couple 00:01:52.859 --> 00:01:55.459 of times. So here's what he says about this romance 00:01:55.459 --> 00:01:58.579 in general. This is a genre that women love and 00:01:58.579 --> 00:02:01.180 write and read and are primary consumers of. 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:03.500 It just doesn't get treated with a lot of respect, 00:02:03.659 --> 00:02:05.920 and nor do the people who make it, nor do the 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.379 people who adapt it. So I think what they, as 00:02:09.379 --> 00:02:12.469 in... the people are responding to, or at least 00:02:12.469 --> 00:02:15.430 I hope, is the fact that we came to this pretty 00:02:15.430 --> 00:02:19.270 full -hearted and as fans and as people who want 00:02:19.270 --> 00:02:21.930 to honor this material and want to honor the 00:02:21.930 --> 00:02:25.789 genre and make it as romantic as we can. That's 00:02:25.789 --> 00:02:28.530 certainly what I wanted to do. Oh, I love that. 00:02:28.789 --> 00:02:31.789 I know. I love that word, full -hearted. You 00:02:31.789 --> 00:02:35.789 know, I feel like full hearts. are a rarity now. 00:02:35.930 --> 00:02:38.810 I think all of us feel that sense of like drain 00:02:38.810 --> 00:02:42.409 that there's not even room to think about. things 00:02:42.409 --> 00:02:45.449 that are joyful in nature. Perhaps not that there's 00:02:45.449 --> 00:02:47.990 not room, but like it almost feels a little bit 00:02:47.990 --> 00:02:51.870 like guilty to consume media that's joyful. Right. 00:02:51.969 --> 00:02:54.330 Because you're like, how can you possibly enjoy 00:02:54.330 --> 00:02:57.030 something when the world's on fire? And I love 00:02:57.030 --> 00:02:59.129 that he thought of it this way, because like, 00:02:59.169 --> 00:03:01.310 you know, like side note, like I always I don't 00:03:01.310 --> 00:03:03.430 like cooking. I hate cooking. Like I hate cooking 00:03:03.430 --> 00:03:05.389 so much. Right. You're looking at me funny, but 00:03:05.389 --> 00:03:07.110 you're going to understand where I'm going with 00:03:07.110 --> 00:03:09.669 this. Right. And some of my friends love cooking. 00:03:09.770 --> 00:03:12.129 They love cooking and their family. always say 00:03:12.129 --> 00:03:15.090 like whatever you make is delicious and then 00:03:15.090 --> 00:03:17.710 whatever I make is like either burnt or like 00:03:17.710 --> 00:03:20.569 just not good and I think it's because you know 00:03:20.569 --> 00:03:23.349 people who love cooking put love into their cooking 00:03:23.349 --> 00:03:25.590 and so when you're eating it you're like oh my 00:03:25.590 --> 00:03:27.210 god this is delicious because it's made with 00:03:27.210 --> 00:03:29.789 love and that is how Jacob Tierney made the show 00:03:29.789 --> 00:03:34.430 it was made with love right and that's why it's 00:03:34.430 --> 00:03:37.909 so good and people are enjoying it so much. You 00:03:37.909 --> 00:03:40.270 could taste the love. And that's how you can 00:03:40.270 --> 00:03:42.449 taste the love in people's cooking. Not in my 00:03:42.449 --> 00:03:44.590 cooking, because I'm not making it with love. 00:03:44.629 --> 00:03:46.569 I'm making it with like, I cannot believe I fucking 00:03:46.569 --> 00:03:48.750 have to make dinner again tonight. But other 00:03:48.750 --> 00:03:51.590 people who love it, like it tastes good, right? 00:03:51.789 --> 00:03:54.710 You're now going with non sequitur analogies. 00:03:54.729 --> 00:03:57.069 I really like this for us. You mentioned guilt, 00:03:57.189 --> 00:03:59.870 Diana. And the other thing that makes me feel 00:03:59.870 --> 00:04:03.509 guilty is the escapism that I naturally crave 00:04:03.509 --> 00:04:06.199 during these times. my brain wants to leave. 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.599 You want to check out of the existential dread. 00:04:09.860 --> 00:04:12.759 Yeah. But that also means sometimes you check 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:15.860 out of like real life happening in front of you. 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:17.819 Like things you need to fucking do. Need to do. 00:04:18.019 --> 00:04:22.160 And things also that are important to like tether 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:25.100 you to the world, you know, in a good way. And 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:27.240 you miss it because you're like seeking this 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:30.139 like almost high, you know, escapism high. I 00:04:30.139 --> 00:04:33.000 am still like very much into escapism with all 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:36.019 of this. Like I've definitely been a little bit 00:04:36.019 --> 00:04:39.259 like escaping my everyday responsibilities in 00:04:39.259 --> 00:04:42.259 the world. I think most of it has to do with 00:04:42.259 --> 00:04:44.800 the fact that it is bringing all of us so much 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:47.740 joy because we're so used to not feeling that 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:51.100 much joy all the time, right? If you escape and 00:04:51.100 --> 00:04:55.670 the new return depleted, To the real world. That 00:04:55.670 --> 00:04:59.829 is ostensibly not helpful if you have responsibilities. 00:05:00.129 --> 00:05:04.790 But if you escape and you come back more rejuvenated, 00:05:04.850 --> 00:05:09.180 which I would. say like for you like having known 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:12.279 you for this long and having worked with you 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:15.439 in other places where our creativity and our 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.819 very specific skill set is needed I see a difference 00:05:19.819 --> 00:05:24.360 in the way your creativity has been utilized 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:28.160 and exploded with this where you look and seem 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.490 happier You know what I mean? That, I think, 00:05:31.490 --> 00:05:34.389 is good. So today we're going to be talking to 00:05:34.389 --> 00:05:37.410 Jenka, who wrote this absolutely fabulous and 00:05:37.410 --> 00:05:40.910 thought -provoking article called Heated Rivalry's 00:05:40.910 --> 00:05:44.129 Anti -Dystopian Art. Welcome, Jenka. Thank you 00:05:44.129 --> 00:05:46.589 for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm 00:05:46.589 --> 00:05:48.129 happy to be here. Tell us a little bit about 00:05:48.129 --> 00:05:50.430 yourself. Tell us how you got into the show. 00:05:50.569 --> 00:05:54.189 So way back in the day, I was originally a film 00:05:54.189 --> 00:05:56.649 student, which sort of ties into how we landed 00:05:56.649 --> 00:05:58.769 here. I moved to LA. I worked in film like a 00:05:58.769 --> 00:06:01.350 little tiny bit, but pretty quickly got into 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:04.569 producing music festivals and nightlife events. 00:06:04.670 --> 00:06:06.629 And I did that for like about a decade. And then 00:06:06.629 --> 00:06:08.810 I was in marketing and advertising. And then 00:06:08.810 --> 00:06:11.949 I ended up in technology doing user experience 00:06:11.949 --> 00:06:14.470 design, whether it's film, whether it's music 00:06:14.470 --> 00:06:16.970 festivals, whether it's applications on your 00:06:16.970 --> 00:06:20.899 phone, it's all experience. design. And so that 00:06:20.899 --> 00:06:25.819 is kind of a lens through which I look at both 00:06:25.819 --> 00:06:27.839 what I do professionally and then also the way 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:30.339 that I look at culture and the entertainment 00:06:30.339 --> 00:06:36.519 that we see. And that kind of led me to writing 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:40.100 this essay. After I wrote it, I looked back and 00:06:40.100 --> 00:06:45.100 like a year ago, I had been, I had started like 00:06:45.100 --> 00:06:48.949 posting about how I was seeing this trend of 00:06:48.949 --> 00:06:53.209 just constant brutality and violence and things 00:06:53.209 --> 00:06:54.790 you don't even it would be comedies you'd be 00:06:54.790 --> 00:06:56.709 watching a comedy and suddenly there would be 00:06:56.709 --> 00:06:59.170 gun violence that would be ostensibly supposedly 00:06:59.170 --> 00:07:02.240 for laughs or I was watching this show called 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:04.899 Wheel of Time and there was this particularly 00:07:04.899 --> 00:07:06.500 released it out to me. There was just like this 00:07:06.500 --> 00:07:10.120 almost pornographic sequence of two women killing 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:12.360 each other over and over and over in like various 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:14.839 ways. It's like a dream sequence where they keep 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.579 dying. But it was just like such a luxuriation 00:07:17.579 --> 00:07:21.660 in the graphicness, the visual lushness of watching 00:07:21.660 --> 00:07:25.529 this like. intense violence and brutality. And 00:07:25.529 --> 00:07:27.110 it was presented in the guise of entertainment 00:07:27.110 --> 00:07:30.370 and beautifully shot. And, you know, you're really 00:07:30.370 --> 00:07:32.329 supposed to react to it in this kind of like 00:07:32.329 --> 00:07:34.569 enjoyment way. But what it was showing you and 00:07:34.569 --> 00:07:37.209 depicting was just incredibly disturbing. And 00:07:37.209 --> 00:07:38.569 that's just kind of like throughout all of our 00:07:38.569 --> 00:07:40.149 culture, throughout all of our entertainment, 00:07:40.449 --> 00:07:42.769 all of our media. And we actually almost take 00:07:42.769 --> 00:07:44.670 it as a given. This was already things that were 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:47.910 on my mind a year ago and before that. And then 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:50.790 when the show. came out when I saw it, it was 00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:53.649 like just a referendum on everything that I had 00:07:53.649 --> 00:07:56.670 been thinking about in this, in this vein. And 00:07:56.670 --> 00:08:00.589 to your question about how I got into the show, 00:08:00.610 --> 00:08:02.430 how I found it. So initially I'd been seeing 00:08:02.430 --> 00:08:04.189 ads. I think we all had sort of been like seeing 00:08:04.189 --> 00:08:06.389 ads like on Instagram or something like, Oh, 00:08:06.389 --> 00:08:09.189 he did rather than like, uh, what I, I thought 00:08:09.189 --> 00:08:10.790 it was either going to be one of two things. 00:08:10.810 --> 00:08:12.250 I thought it was either going to be like this 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:16.370 really saccharine hallmark kind of like young 00:08:16.370 --> 00:08:18.829 adult sort of thing, or I thought it was going 00:08:18.829 --> 00:08:20.449 to be euphoria. Like, I thought it was going 00:08:20.449 --> 00:08:23.430 to be this, like, really bleak, depressing, like, 00:08:23.529 --> 00:08:24.769 something that was going to make you feel like 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:26.529 shit after you watched it. And I saw somebody 00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:28.290 post something about it on threads that piqued 00:08:28.290 --> 00:08:30.410 my curiosity. And, like, this reaction to it 00:08:30.410 --> 00:08:32.450 seems like not either one of those things that 00:08:32.450 --> 00:08:35.730 I think that it is. And then I watched it, and, 00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:37.490 like, you know, the rest is history. I never 00:08:37.490 --> 00:08:40.990 made it through Euphoria. I watched, like, three 00:08:40.990 --> 00:08:44.009 or four episodes, and I couldn't. It was so dark. 00:08:44.090 --> 00:08:46.960 I couldn't do it. I know people love it. I know 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.879 people are obsessed with it. I felt the same 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:50.980 way about Game of Thrones. I couldn't do it. 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:53.600 Totally. I didn't watch either one. I watched, 00:08:53.620 --> 00:08:56.080 I think, two episodes of Euphoria for those exact 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.340 same reasons because I think I was so aware of 00:08:58.340 --> 00:09:02.000 seeing these dystopian tropes in everything. 00:09:02.649 --> 00:09:05.710 being is like so the other part of this is that 00:09:05.710 --> 00:09:09.409 um i also studied hypnosis and hypnotherapy and 00:09:09.409 --> 00:09:12.990 so i understand what these visions are doing 00:09:12.990 --> 00:09:15.490 to us in a kind of like a trance -like way like 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:18.830 what kind of state they're putting us into and 00:09:18.830 --> 00:09:21.450 what kind of vision they're suggesting to us 00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:24.169 and i just i just don't want to be hypnotized 00:09:24.169 --> 00:09:25.809 into that like i don't want to go into those 00:09:25.809 --> 00:09:29.929 worlds can you tell us what What dystopia means 00:09:29.929 --> 00:09:32.610 to you and what anti -dystopia means to you? 00:09:32.909 --> 00:09:34.929 Dystopia, I think, you know, the sort of the 00:09:34.929 --> 00:09:37.549 very generic kind of vision, like idea that comes 00:09:37.549 --> 00:09:38.809 to mind when you say that word is like a sci 00:09:38.809 --> 00:09:42.450 -fi future. But if you think about things like 00:09:42.450 --> 00:09:46.250 minority report, like how much of that has just 00:09:46.250 --> 00:09:48.669 become a roadmap for where we've ended up? Oh, 00:09:48.669 --> 00:09:51.549 yeah. Right. Right. So it seems speculative, 00:09:51.649 --> 00:09:57.149 but that vision primes us to. accept that that 00:09:57.149 --> 00:09:58.750 is what the future is going to be. And so when 00:09:58.750 --> 00:10:01.029 it arrives, like, well, no, no, here it is. And 00:10:01.029 --> 00:10:03.230 so that's one part of it. But the other part 00:10:03.230 --> 00:10:04.929 of it is that I also think there are shows that 00:10:04.929 --> 00:10:06.830 aren't necessarily science fiction. They're not 00:10:06.830 --> 00:10:09.710 speculative. They're like Euphoria. They're set 00:10:09.710 --> 00:10:11.929 in a world that is like ostensibly like the world 00:10:11.929 --> 00:10:14.330 we're in now, but they're so full of cynicism. 00:10:14.649 --> 00:10:19.029 They are like characters experiencing a genuine 00:10:19.029 --> 00:10:23.269 human connection or emotion, even when that does 00:10:23.269 --> 00:10:25.799 somehow manage to like squeak through. is rewarded 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:31.519 with pain and punishment and how silly to have 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.059 expected connection. Like, aren't you such a 00:10:35.059 --> 00:10:37.080 sophisticated person that you would have recognized 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.879 this is not reality, right? Like, it's like, 00:10:40.019 --> 00:10:43.179 you know, you need to experience pain and tragedy 00:10:43.179 --> 00:10:46.600 for it to have value, right? Think about these 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:49.440 Oscar movies that win, like, these actors and 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.080 actresses are supposed to be doing, like... physically 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.720 challenging or emotionally challenging things 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.879 in order to like be worthy of art. I think there 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.240 was literally just like a couple of days ago, 00:11:00.259 --> 00:11:03.379 an interview with Jacob Tierney, and he was saying 00:11:03.379 --> 00:11:06.000 how like characters on the shows aren't allowed 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:09.480 to like have sex and be happy. If they have sex, 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:11.679 they must suffer. And, you know, he said it in 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.470 the. you know, in the milieu of like queer narratives. 00:11:15.909 --> 00:11:21.470 But I think that is also, that is pervasive throughout, 00:11:21.710 --> 00:11:24.070 you know, hetero narratives too. Like, you know, 00:11:24.090 --> 00:11:27.470 the whole cliche of like any sort of like thriller 00:11:27.470 --> 00:11:29.169 or horror story. It's like the girl that has 00:11:29.169 --> 00:11:33.570 sex is the one that dies. Like Sarah Michelle 00:11:33.570 --> 00:11:36.789 Gellar in I Know What You Did Last Summer. A 00:11:36.789 --> 00:11:40.850 trope that is this and you know what to expect 00:11:40.850 --> 00:11:43.799 when you see that. So I think there's something 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:47.519 really subversive about the vision that heated 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:51.120 rivalry presented in contrast to all of these 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.299 things that we are primed to expect. So you get 00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:57.519 into that a little bit in your article about 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.679 anti -dystopian art. So tell me now, how does 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:05.039 heated rivalry check all those anti -dystopian 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:09.590 boxes? A friend of mine is a futurist. Her name 00:12:09.590 --> 00:12:12.570 is Monika Bielskita, and she put together a few 00:12:12.570 --> 00:12:17.009 years ago. What is a futurist? So a futurist 00:12:17.009 --> 00:12:20.909 is like what Monika does, for example, she works, 00:12:21.029 --> 00:12:24.450 she actually worked with movies, movie studios. 00:12:24.549 --> 00:12:26.769 If you're a movie and you want to create a vision 00:12:26.769 --> 00:12:28.909 of the future for like some future, you know, 00:12:28.909 --> 00:12:30.929 sci -fi thing, like what is that going to look 00:12:30.929 --> 00:12:34.529 like? The world building of that. So it's, that's 00:12:34.529 --> 00:12:39.980 kind of. the the idea um and so she put together 00:12:39.980 --> 00:12:43.519 what she called the protopia futures framework 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.960 she had this kind of like these dimensions of 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.740 what protopia is and i took a similar approach 00:12:49.740 --> 00:12:51.720 in how i wrote my essay because it's structured 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:53.980 into these three sections and the first one is 00:12:53.980 --> 00:12:59.139 sex and pleasure uh the the second one is connection 00:12:59.139 --> 00:13:04.059 and intimacy and the third one is uh joy and 00:13:04.059 --> 00:13:10.659 creativity these are all aspects of what is kind 00:13:10.659 --> 00:13:14.340 of the antithesis of this dystopian worldview 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:17.059 because even if you think about something like 00:13:17.059 --> 00:13:20.279 creativity if you think about the street in a 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:23.240 sci -fi future vision are there murals on it 00:13:23.450 --> 00:13:27.549 Is there like actual human creativity that is 00:13:27.549 --> 00:13:30.389 constant everywhere? Do you see that in the future? 00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:33.750 And so I took these kind of dimensions of leaning 00:13:33.750 --> 00:13:36.809 into this, leaning into sex that is actually 00:13:36.809 --> 00:13:40.409 pleasurable and full of mutuality rather than 00:13:40.409 --> 00:13:42.970 so much of the sex that we are exposed to in 00:13:42.970 --> 00:13:46.110 media, which is non -consensual sex, sex we don't 00:13:46.110 --> 00:13:48.230 actually want to see. It's like disturbing, right? 00:13:48.269 --> 00:13:51.389 Why is it beamed into our eyeballs? That's why 00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:52.990 I couldn't watch the Game of Thrones. It was 00:13:52.990 --> 00:13:58.009 just all assault. And yeah, it's awful. And that's 00:13:58.009 --> 00:14:00.250 entertainment. Be entertained. People love it. 00:14:00.350 --> 00:14:07.350 I took those dimensions as kind of the... like 00:14:07.350 --> 00:14:10.129 anchor points around which to tell the story 00:14:10.129 --> 00:14:13.269 of how heated rivalry approaches creating the 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:17.590 the experience design of its world and of the 00:14:17.590 --> 00:14:20.190 the show that you're you're experiencing through 00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:23.289 these very different lenses relative to you know 00:14:23.289 --> 00:14:26.429 what a typical sort of dystopian cynical view 00:14:26.429 --> 00:14:31.090 would be is there is there something about something 00:14:31.090 --> 00:14:34.580 that makes something like anti -dystopian art 00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:38.399 versus just like happy and fluffy. Joyful. Yeah, 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.159 joyful. Yeah. Or is it the time we're living 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.820 in that makes it as such? I think in the case 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:47.740 of Heated Rivalry specifically, I think it was 00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:51.940 just such a dramatic departure. And it's evidence, 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.980 I think, in the way that I'm sure you guys have 00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:57.500 seen this too, where if you watch. people's reactions 00:14:57.500 --> 00:15:00.659 to what when they talk about what they were thinking 00:15:00.659 --> 00:15:02.860 or expecting to happen as they were watching 00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:07.259 the um the episodes even up until the very last 00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:10.080 minute literally our heroes are riding off into 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.480 the sunset together and people thought that there's 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.559 gonna be a car accident and throughout then people 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:17.960 thought that their phones were gonna get hacked 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:20.539 and that their messages were gonna get leaked 00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:23.879 and they would get discovered or that you know 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.559 shane being when he comes out to his parents, 00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:28.500 that that was going to end in some sort of traumatic 00:15:28.500 --> 00:15:33.200 kind of way. And I think at every given moment 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.980 throughout this arc of the show, where we are 00:15:36.980 --> 00:15:40.440 just so primed to expect these tropes to head 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:44.320 into something devastating, it took the decision 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.039 to be like, but... what if actually something 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.639 positive happens and not something saccharine 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:53.860 and like hallmarky because there's still a lot 00:15:53.860 --> 00:15:56.419 of like emotional depth and emotional complexity 00:15:56.419 --> 00:15:58.159 it's not it's not just on the surface of things 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:01.779 and so i think i think it's treating the positive 00:16:01.779 --> 00:16:04.659 and the good potential outcomes with the same 00:16:04.659 --> 00:16:08.759 depth and nuance as you would the sort of the 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:13.970 sophisticated dark outcomes um I think is a big 00:16:13.970 --> 00:16:17.409 part of that. It's that difference of like, it's 00:16:17.409 --> 00:16:20.789 just a Hallmark Kids kind of show, which this 00:16:20.789 --> 00:16:23.370 is definitely not, versus, you know, like that 00:16:23.370 --> 00:16:26.490 kind of like prestige entertainment that actors 00:16:26.490 --> 00:16:28.149 want to get awards, you know, they think they're 00:16:28.149 --> 00:16:30.470 going to get awards for and it lets them emote 00:16:30.470 --> 00:16:33.789 and stretch their craft, right? This is that 00:16:33.789 --> 00:16:36.889 for sure. So it has that element of sophistication 00:16:36.889 --> 00:16:39.049 and depth and nuance, but it says, but what if 00:16:39.049 --> 00:16:42.330 we explored also positive things happening? in 00:16:42.330 --> 00:16:44.129 the way that they do in people's lives. You know 00:16:44.129 --> 00:16:47.549 what it is also, I think, is that like you do 00:16:47.549 --> 00:16:50.190 feel that sense of like your stomach swooping, 00:16:50.250 --> 00:16:52.129 like something bad is going to happen because 00:16:52.129 --> 00:16:55.470 the setting, right? You're like, it's a professional 00:16:55.470 --> 00:16:58.929 sports. You're like, okay. And then it's like 00:16:58.929 --> 00:17:02.289 a queer story and you're like, oh, and then it's 00:17:02.289 --> 00:17:06.089 like an immigrant from a not very LGBTQ friendly 00:17:06.089 --> 00:17:09.210 country. You're like, oh, like it feels like 00:17:09.210 --> 00:17:12.700 it's. like setting up for these red flags of 00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:16.680 tragedy to happen. And it doesn't happen. You 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:18.539 know, I was thinking about the difference between 00:17:18.539 --> 00:17:21.779 maybe like Ted Lasso and Schitt's Creek, which 00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:25.160 to me evoke similar feelings of happiness and 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.059 joy. If either of you watch those shows and what 00:17:28.059 --> 00:17:31.160 makes it different, I think for me, I mean, although 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.119 Schitt's Creek does have a really strong queer 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.160 story through it, but it's like, it feels like 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.920 there's all these like. possible places where 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.740 tragedy is going to happen by the sheer setup 00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:45.339 of the story. I do think a lot of it is just 00:17:45.339 --> 00:17:48.660 how we've been primed. Like, there are templates 00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:52.519 to writing movies. Like, Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. 00:17:52.539 --> 00:17:54.680 It's a five -act structure. This is the beat 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:57.440 that has to happen by Act 2 so that you get the 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.819 payoff in Act 5. And there are very sort of expected 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:07.029 things that transpire. And also... especially 00:18:07.029 --> 00:18:08.710 and a lot of this has been talked about kind 00:18:08.710 --> 00:18:12.349 of in the current entertainment environment in 00:18:12.349 --> 00:18:14.009 terms of like you know we're all on our phones 00:18:14.009 --> 00:18:16.769 when we're watching shows and so how do those 00:18:16.769 --> 00:18:21.009 shows need to um respond to that with ever even 00:18:21.009 --> 00:18:25.269 more intensely cliche um you know things that 00:18:25.269 --> 00:18:27.529 they that they give us as we keep watching shows 00:18:27.529 --> 00:18:30.210 that are you know outputted through the same 00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:32.349 template and movies that are outputted through 00:18:32.349 --> 00:18:34.529 the same template kind of we as audiences we 00:18:34.529 --> 00:18:39.690 know what we're gonna expect and so it's i think 00:18:39.690 --> 00:18:43.210 a lot of it is also playing and subverting that 00:18:43.210 --> 00:18:46.529 it's it's converting our own expectations that 00:18:46.529 --> 00:18:50.269 come from a place of us existing in a media environment 00:18:50.269 --> 00:18:53.150 that has taught us what to expect yeah yeah because 00:18:53.150 --> 00:18:55.390 we've been conditioned to expect the worst honestly 00:18:55.390 --> 00:18:59.470 we get so few pieces of media and art that make 00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:02.750 us feel pure joy. This is why this one hits on 00:19:02.750 --> 00:19:05.230 such like a visceral level. Do you think that 00:19:05.230 --> 00:19:09.230 there's anything about the anti -dystopia genre 00:19:09.230 --> 00:19:12.769 or art that gets like delegitimized because it's 00:19:12.769 --> 00:19:15.109 associated with a feminine genre? How like the 00:19:15.109 --> 00:19:16.910 very thing that makes it so powerful is what 00:19:16.910 --> 00:19:18.970 gets dismissed as unserious? I know we talked 00:19:18.970 --> 00:19:21.089 a little bit about that, but... Do you have anything 00:19:21.089 --> 00:19:24.509 else to add? Yeah, I think there's a lot of conversation 00:19:24.509 --> 00:19:26.950 that has gone on around like specifically the 00:19:26.950 --> 00:19:29.930 romance genre. I wish anti -dystopia was a genre. 00:19:30.190 --> 00:19:33.089 It needs to be. Maybe this is it. This is the 00:19:33.089 --> 00:19:35.849 beginning. I think what this show does lean into 00:19:35.849 --> 00:19:40.269 are tropes that are very expected sort of romance 00:19:40.269 --> 00:19:44.029 genre. conventions in a really in a good way 00:19:44.029 --> 00:19:47.029 and that obviously is a genre that is completely 00:19:47.029 --> 00:19:51.269 dismissed as unserious and unworthy of any kind 00:19:51.269 --> 00:19:55.190 of like serious consideration because it is primarily 00:19:55.190 --> 00:19:59.289 created by women consumed by women and obviously 00:19:59.289 --> 00:20:03.470 anything that is primarily created by and for 00:20:03.470 --> 00:20:06.769 women is de facto unserious. I actually think 00:20:06.769 --> 00:20:09.250 the really interesting part is in the adaptation 00:20:09.250 --> 00:20:14.769 is the way that the female characters were expanded 00:20:14.769 --> 00:20:18.789 in the show relative to the book in like really 00:20:18.789 --> 00:20:22.930 really nuanced and profound ways that they showed 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.160 Women were, you know, at any given, again, from 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.819 the sort of trope expectations, at any given 00:20:28.819 --> 00:20:30.819 moment where you could have expected, oh, this 00:20:30.819 --> 00:20:32.519 is the villain. This is the person that's going 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.059 to stand in the way of, this is going to be the 00:20:35.059 --> 00:20:37.920 foil that is the obstacle in the way of the relationship 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:40.720 that the two star -crossed lovers we want to 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.740 get together are going to have. At every given 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:44.299 point that that could have been where it went, 00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:47.380 it didn't go there. In your essay, you say, you 00:20:47.380 --> 00:20:50.440 describe cynicism as prophylactic. And actually, 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:53.599 this really spoke to me. Diana, I don't know 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.960 if it speaks to you because we are very different 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.700 people, but both of us have this very common 00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:01.900 thread. And I think this is why that makes us 00:21:01.900 --> 00:21:05.900 like not just friends, but like effective partners 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:08.380 and things like this. And, you know, stuff that 00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:12.259 we did like worked on from like activism. portion, 00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:14.759 you know, you said cynicism is prophylactic. 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.000 And I always told Diana, like, I'm the kind of 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.420 person that isn't doing what I'm doing because 00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:24.500 I have this like rosy vision of the world or 00:21:24.500 --> 00:21:27.940 this innate sense of optimism. I'm like gritting 00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:31.259 my teeth and like pushing, you know, like I. 00:21:32.089 --> 00:21:35.309 have a streak of like the misanthrope in me. 00:21:35.390 --> 00:21:38.289 I feel like I'm like, you can do better humanity, 00:21:38.730 --> 00:21:42.130 you know, and I have that sense of cynicism as 00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:45.549 prophylaxis in my head because it's protective, 00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:49.559 right? It is protective. So like. Tell me a little 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.819 bit more about that and how that ties into what 00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:56.759 heated rivalry is kind of subverting. So the 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.079 way that cynicism is prophylactic is that it 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.339 keeps us from feeling anything too much. Right. 00:22:01.420 --> 00:22:04.940 It's like, well, if you expect the worst anyway 00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:07.559 and nothing can ever be better anyway, you sort 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.000 of protected yourself from disappointment. But 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:14.339 you've also precluded yourself from being able 00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:18.329 to actually. feel what it feels like when things 00:22:18.329 --> 00:22:21.410 really do go well and the embodied sense of that 00:22:21.410 --> 00:22:25.269 and actually when I was writing that I was thinking 00:22:25.269 --> 00:22:28.930 about there's a show that it's like these very 00:22:28.930 --> 00:22:32.069 sort of like superficial characters and on one 00:22:32.069 --> 00:22:33.910 of the episodes this other character showed up 00:22:33.910 --> 00:22:36.289 who's like this very sweet sincere genuine person 00:22:36.890 --> 00:22:38.730 And one of the characters didn't even know what 00:22:38.730 --> 00:22:41.589 to do with this. And as they were sort of just 00:22:41.589 --> 00:22:44.490 kind of like starting to open up to this person, 00:22:44.650 --> 00:22:47.069 the show killed him. He died in an accident. 00:22:47.329 --> 00:22:50.029 So, haha, joke's on you. If you feel anything, 00:22:50.349 --> 00:22:55.150 it's going to be bad. What a silly, naive thing 00:22:55.150 --> 00:22:57.029 to have thought that you could be allowed to 00:22:57.029 --> 00:23:00.190 feel something real. That cynicism protects you 00:23:00.190 --> 00:23:03.910 from venturing into this territory where you 00:23:03.910 --> 00:23:10.930 could get hurt. of the show is just like such 00:23:10.930 --> 00:23:16.829 deep, genuine emotion and yearning and desire 00:23:16.829 --> 00:23:21.049 that is really authentic. It's not like objectified 00:23:21.049 --> 00:23:24.430 desire. It's very real. And we go through the 00:23:24.430 --> 00:23:27.329 ups and downs with these characters as they kind 00:23:27.329 --> 00:23:29.930 of get in their own way and deny themselves. 00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:34.650 And at the end, they are able to get... past 00:23:34.650 --> 00:23:38.630 this they're able to have genuine conversations 00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:42.650 and that lead to this real connection and the 00:23:42.650 --> 00:23:45.089 the takeaway from that is that this is possible 00:23:45.089 --> 00:23:49.089 if you follow what you're really feeling and 00:23:49.089 --> 00:23:53.720 don't try to mask it and don't try to protect 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:57.000 yourself from your own feelings and desires good 00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.660 things are also possible from that yeah yeah 00:23:59.660 --> 00:24:03.359 you know i've always said that dystopia was my 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.680 most favorite genre i i consumed dystopia all 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:10.180 of it all the time since like probably high school 00:24:10.180 --> 00:24:14.220 maybe even before and Then when I was teaching, 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:18.539 most of the literature that we are exposed or 00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:21.700 that we expose students to in the curriculum. 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:23.299 Right. Because, you know, the curriculum is pretty 00:24:23.299 --> 00:24:26.680 much set is dystopian literature like 1984 and 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:29.140 Animal Farm and Brave New World, the lottery. 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.119 I mean, everything we read in high school, even 00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:35.240 maybe in middle school, is dystopian. And often 00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:37.539 my students, I mean, even Great Gatsby. I mean, 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:39.819 it's not dystopian, but it's depressing. And 00:24:39.819 --> 00:24:42.140 my students always it never failed every year. 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.740 like, why are we reading all this depressing 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:46.680 stuff? Like, can't you give us something happy? 00:24:46.819 --> 00:24:49.759 I guess my my response to them was like, well, 00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:51.680 this is this is where you're learning, right? 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:54.759 Like you're learning these like ideas of what 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.700 the world could be like if we don't do something 00:24:57.700 --> 00:25:00.140 about it. To me, it always almost like a warning. 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:02.660 It's warning you to what might happen. But I 00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:05.160 was reading your article. You said something 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:09.539 like it like desensitized. us and it conditions 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:14.279 us to accept what is already happening right 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:16.559 it's not even like you read the dystopia you 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.519 learn from it and then you prevent it from happening 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.900 it's the opposite you read the dystopia you are 00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.539 conditioned to understand it and expect it to 00:25:25.539 --> 00:25:28.039 happen and then when it does happen you're like 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:31.140 okay well i read about this so this is just how 00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:35.039 it is right like it makes sense i guess because 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.710 I haven't or we haven't seen too much anti -dystopian 00:25:40.710 --> 00:25:43.349 art or things that bring you so much joy you 00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:45.769 mentioned Anusha like Ted Lasso so joyful why 00:25:45.769 --> 00:25:48.710 is it so popular because it is so joyful right 00:25:48.710 --> 00:25:51.490 when you see that I think that's why like it 00:25:51.490 --> 00:25:53.829 hits you on such a level like we said right because 00:25:53.829 --> 00:25:55.890 like you're so not used to it like watching The 00:25:55.890 --> 00:25:57.869 Handmaid's Tale like after the first two seasons 00:25:57.869 --> 00:26:00.990 I couldn't do it like I it took I finished it 00:26:00.990 --> 00:26:02.970 eventually I did finish it but I skipped like 00:26:02.970 --> 00:26:06.690 two or three years between because I said to 00:26:06.690 --> 00:26:10.220 my girlfriends like I can't gives me such anxiety. 00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:16.619 We're living in it. So why do I also need to 00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:19.619 see it on TV on top of already living in it? 00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:22.059 The really interesting question is, think about 00:26:22.059 --> 00:26:24.579 all the people that it takes to create that. 00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:29.079 It takes so many people to bring that vision 00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:34.019 to life. And what is that experience that it's 00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:36.519 creating, not just for the people who are making 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:39.500 that world, but for the people who are consuming 00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:43.960 it? vision like how many people did it take to 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:47.339 put that vision into the world that lets people 00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:50.970 essentially thematically experience brutalization 00:26:50.970 --> 00:26:55.390 of women for what to to to accomplish what like 00:26:55.390 --> 00:26:57.750 we learned something we didn't know like we know 00:26:57.750 --> 00:27:00.329 yeah we know we've seen it we've heard it like 00:27:00.329 --> 00:27:02.730 when you said like presents a violent degraded 00:27:02.730 --> 00:27:06.329 world has likewise turned sex a fundamental aspect 00:27:06.329 --> 00:27:09.210 of humanness into a plot device for violence 00:27:09.210 --> 00:27:11.869 and degradation right so like you said pleasure 00:27:11.869 --> 00:27:15.039 becomes torture in these in this dystopian world. 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.900 Yeah. So I like really enjoy dystopia, but right 00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:21.819 now it just, as you said, it feels like this 00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:26.539 bleakness is like completely unending and unsolvable 00:27:26.539 --> 00:27:29.880 sometimes. And, you know, you're, you're like, 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.799 oh my God, should. darkness just win because 00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:37.240 I'm so exhausted. I joke to our friends, like 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:41.460 if a la Matrix, if like the AI wins and then 00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:43.779 burn the sleep pod, you know, and I'm like, my 00:27:43.779 --> 00:27:46.460 brain can finally rest, you know, I'll probably 00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:49.819 like drain the system of energy while it re -energizes 00:27:49.819 --> 00:27:51.759 me. But it's just like, you just want to catch 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:54.119 your breath, right? That's what I mean. You're 00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:57.690 like. It's just, I just need to breathe. It's 00:27:57.690 --> 00:27:59.890 not nihilistic because I don't think I'm that. 00:28:00.069 --> 00:28:03.029 It's almost like you have this fatigue for these, 00:28:03.109 --> 00:28:06.309 you know, kind of like really thematically heavy, 00:28:06.390 --> 00:28:10.490 but really, truly tragic, dystopian futures, 00:28:10.710 --> 00:28:13.630 right? Because it really feels like at this moment, 00:28:13.710 --> 00:28:16.230 you're living it and you're not really sure how 00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:18.609 to get out of it or if we'll get out of it. I 00:28:18.609 --> 00:28:23.269 think for me, that is such a key thing. Because 00:28:23.269 --> 00:28:26.849 it has depth and, you know, intimacy, personal 00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:29.009 stakes, but you don't feel like you have to, 00:28:29.009 --> 00:28:31.650 you know, save the world while you're in it. 00:28:31.710 --> 00:28:35.609 You know, it makes the world small enough. Like, 00:28:35.609 --> 00:28:39.410 you can have the spectrum of human emotion and 00:28:39.410 --> 00:28:42.170 it just be about these two people kind of living 00:28:42.170 --> 00:28:45.109 sort of pseudo -normal lives. Well, that's the 00:28:45.109 --> 00:28:47.369 thing that I wrote kind of at the end is that 00:28:47.369 --> 00:28:50.779 what... you experience with heated rivalry is 00:28:50.779 --> 00:28:53.759 something that feels very different like like 00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:58.700 literally in your body somatically you feel this 00:28:58.700 --> 00:29:01.559 journey that you've been on with these characters 00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:03.720 and you know i i talk about it's like you've 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.599 literally just like experienced falling in love 00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:09.460 mirror neurons are firing you have been on this 00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:13.730 journey with them and what it shows isn't The 00:29:13.730 --> 00:29:15.990 possibility of a future that looks different 00:29:15.990 --> 00:29:19.569 and looks so futuristic and what kind of crazy 00:29:19.569 --> 00:29:21.589 contrivances can we think about what could happen? 00:29:21.670 --> 00:29:26.009 It feels different. It feels different from how 00:29:26.009 --> 00:29:28.380 we're used to entertainment making us feel. It 00:29:28.380 --> 00:29:30.420 feels different from how just any given thing 00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:32.500 we're looking at on our screen, be it entertainment 00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:34.480 media or news media, anything we're seeing on 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.400 our screen makes us feel. It feels like a crazy 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.299 futuristic experience. It's so different from 00:29:39.299 --> 00:29:41.599 what we're having now. It can only possibly exist, 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:43.759 even though the show is, I guess, set in the 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:47.720 past. But it feels like a departure from the 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:50.099 present. And our minds sort of think of that 00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:53.079 as a future. It's sort of like bittersweet to 00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:56.160 think about. Like, are we so aching for just 00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:00.339 this like... small stories with deep personal 00:30:00.339 --> 00:30:02.500 connections? And the answer to that is yes. Do 00:30:02.500 --> 00:30:07.220 you think that anti -dystopia A, you mentioned 00:30:07.220 --> 00:30:09.579 that it's not a genre. Do you think it can be 00:30:09.579 --> 00:30:12.960 a genre? And is it contagious? Like, will we 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.420 get more of this? Because, you know, you mentioned 00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:17.640 in your article that like Hollywood basically 00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.119 does not do this, whether they can't or they 00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:22.000 don't think people want it, whatever that may 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.779 be. I think this proved to them that people want 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:27.000 it. But I do wonder, like, is Hollywood going 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.339 to take this and say, oh, this work, this is 00:30:30.339 --> 00:30:32.859 like a winning formula. We want to do this. Or 00:30:32.859 --> 00:30:35.319 are they going to say like. oh, it's a one -off, 00:30:35.380 --> 00:30:37.740 this can be made here, right? Like, what do you 00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:41.019 think? I think it's definitely too big to ignore 00:30:41.019 --> 00:30:45.480 that there's something here. I don't know to 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.339 what extent Hollywood, the Hollywood system, 00:30:48.579 --> 00:30:53.000 would understand what it is. particularly about 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:57.319 this that that created this kind of reaction 00:30:57.319 --> 00:30:59.079 also to you know to some extent it's kind of 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.160 like lightning in a bottle like i think there's 00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:06.180 going to be a very heated interest in uh in romance 00:31:06.180 --> 00:31:08.880 for sure it's it's too it's too big to ignore 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.119 and i was just watching this old interview with 00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:15.480 jacob tierney from like from 2022 he's talking 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:20.319 about like himself personally um really has a 00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:24.339 huge distaste for power dynamics in sexual relationships 00:31:24.339 --> 00:31:29.140 and um like he he says it's a huge turn off for 00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:34.859 him and that is a very kind of unique uh perspective 00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:39.440 when it comes to the entertainment and and movie 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:43.599 and tv tropes that we are exposed to because 00:31:44.589 --> 00:31:47.529 We're basically spoon fed Cinderella from the 00:31:47.529 --> 00:31:49.690 time we're children. And that is sort of the 00:31:49.690 --> 00:31:52.630 template of, you know, this power disparity. 00:31:53.390 --> 00:31:57.069 comes with hand in hand with romance. And I think 00:31:57.069 --> 00:32:01.869 something that is so particular about the success 00:32:01.869 --> 00:32:05.450 of Heated Rivalry is that it leans into showing 00:32:05.450 --> 00:32:08.970 romance in a way that we just really don't get 00:32:08.970 --> 00:32:11.130 otherwise. People were like, you know, I would 00:32:11.130 --> 00:32:12.710 see people like, I just finished Heated Rivalry. 00:32:12.829 --> 00:32:15.029 What else can I watch that's like this? And I'm 00:32:15.029 --> 00:32:20.569 like, yeah, right? Nothing. Not this. I tried 00:32:20.569 --> 00:32:23.569 watching. I tried watching. And I did. I watched 00:32:23.569 --> 00:32:25.529 Bridgerton the next because I used to love it. 00:32:25.549 --> 00:32:28.690 I watched it. Speaking of power dynamics, speaking 00:32:28.690 --> 00:32:32.130 of Cinderella story, this season is the Cinderella 00:32:32.130 --> 00:32:34.450 story. They're literally retelling Cinderella 00:32:34.450 --> 00:32:37.250 and I am watching it. I liked it. I enjoyed it. 00:32:37.289 --> 00:32:39.170 I really did. It was the first thing I've enjoyed 00:32:39.170 --> 00:32:42.069 since starting, you know, my fandom here. But 00:32:42.069 --> 00:32:44.990 I'm just watching it. I'm like, again, like again, 00:32:45.150 --> 00:32:48.029 the same exact thing. And then the way it ends 00:32:48.029 --> 00:32:50.700 halfway through, I'm just like. This is why I 00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:52.380 love heated rivalry, because this is nothing. 00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:56.539 This is not scratching any romantic itch at all. 00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:00.240 I think that there is something really universal. 00:33:01.670 --> 00:33:04.609 In the same way that people do seem to like power 00:33:04.609 --> 00:33:07.369 dynamics within the sexual context, I think people 00:33:07.369 --> 00:33:09.609 also really don't like it. And there's a whole 00:33:09.609 --> 00:33:11.089 kind of sexual... Perhaps we've been conditioned 00:33:11.089 --> 00:33:14.069 to like the power dynamics, just like we've been 00:33:14.069 --> 00:33:17.829 conditioned to like dystopia. Exactly. Right. 00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:23.190 And it's not even... To me, it's like you can 00:33:23.190 --> 00:33:29.410 have these things that... that occur in your 00:33:29.410 --> 00:33:32.910 sex life. And it doesn't have to like translate 00:33:32.910 --> 00:33:37.269 into some sort of like archetype of this is where 00:33:37.269 --> 00:33:40.210 you are. Like this is what, this is the, you 00:33:40.210 --> 00:33:44.430 know, hole you fit in. Well, we're keeping that. 00:33:44.430 --> 00:33:48.250 We are not editing that out. That is staying. 00:33:48.950 --> 00:33:52.410 That is staying. Oh God. I didn't even, yeah. 00:33:52.710 --> 00:33:57.180 A box is what I meant. I don't know if that's 00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:59.720 better. We are keeping all of this. Audience, 00:33:59.740 --> 00:34:05.680 enjoy unfiltered, unedited Anusha. Wow. Welcome. 00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:08.699 Welcome to our podcast, Jenka. This is the stuff 00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:11.159 that we usually cut out, but not this time. Not 00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:14.539 this one. Oh, my God. Right. Like you can have 00:34:14.539 --> 00:34:17.559 times like it doesn't have to translate to your 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:21.619 entire life or your entire dynamic. You can have 00:34:21.619 --> 00:34:26.190 moments where one person is maybe. in a different 00:34:26.190 --> 00:34:30.269 role, and then it can reverse. To me, I think 00:34:30.269 --> 00:34:32.829 that's one of the most interesting things about 00:34:32.829 --> 00:34:35.949 the way they depict Illya and Shane's sex life, 00:34:36.030 --> 00:34:38.449 because clearly Illya is more experienced than 00:34:38.449 --> 00:34:42.230 Shane, and it's very clear right away, but it 00:34:42.230 --> 00:34:45.079 doesn't... becomes some sort of treaties on their 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:48.559 entire relationship. And it doesn't become a 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:53.460 way for Ilya to exert dominance. It's so clear 00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:57.340 that he is so conscious of this potential disparity 00:34:57.340 --> 00:35:01.739 that he seeks to neutralize it because it's a 00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:04.940 turn on for him to do that. And the thing about 00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:08.420 Shane is like, as he says to Rose, like he's 00:35:08.420 --> 00:35:12.199 getting exactly what he wants out of this. yeah 00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:16.820 relationship and do you know how much like power 00:35:16.820 --> 00:35:18.760 and assertiveness you have to have to be able 00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:21.000 to get exactly what you want out of a sexual 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.739 experience like shane's getting it so he is like 00:35:24.739 --> 00:35:30.000 all of these situations where power could be 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:35.480 wielded in a way to create disparity is neutralized 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:39.429 because it turns the people involved in it on 00:35:39.429 --> 00:35:42.829 to do that yeah and if that's not anti -dystopian 00:35:42.829 --> 00:35:46.610 i don't know what is there we go There we go. 00:35:46.849 --> 00:35:48.789 Jenka, thank you so much for joining us today. 00:35:48.969 --> 00:35:50.849 I loved our conversation. I love your article. 00:35:50.929 --> 00:35:52.809 I read it four times because apparently I do 00:35:52.809 --> 00:35:55.190 that now. I reread and rewatch things multiple 00:35:55.190 --> 00:35:57.750 times. Yeah, Diana's never looked at anything 00:35:57.750 --> 00:36:00.090 twice before and now she only does that. That's 00:36:00.090 --> 00:36:03.769 not true. I mean, you should see my copy of 1984. 00:36:04.210 --> 00:36:07.090 But anyway, so in your article, you end with 00:36:07.090 --> 00:36:10.489 how Shane says to his parents, we just want a 00:36:10.489 --> 00:36:13.949 future. And you say, Jenka, you say that he speaks 00:36:13.949 --> 00:36:17.289 for all of us. You say he... has broken through 00:36:17.289 --> 00:36:20.989 the onslaught of pop culture visions that make 00:36:20.989 --> 00:36:24.869 dystopia's cynical, joyless futures seem inexorable 00:36:24.869 --> 00:36:27.969 precisely because it is a piece of art that is 00:36:27.969 --> 00:36:31.789 not only shows us, but allows us to feel that 00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:34.949 another world is truly possible. That lets us 00:36:34.949 --> 00:36:38.070 somatically experience a future beyond what exists 00:36:38.070 --> 00:36:42.429 now, a future we all actually want. Joy in the 00:36:42.429 --> 00:36:45.369 present makes joy in the future. Future seems 00:36:45.369 --> 00:36:49.429 plausible. And that, too, is hope. And I just, 00:36:49.429 --> 00:36:52.090 like, love that. I love that for us. Because 00:36:52.090 --> 00:36:54.030 we all just want hope. It was such a great article. 00:36:54.329 --> 00:36:56.329 When you said, I'm writing an article about anti 00:36:56.329 --> 00:36:59.179 -dystopia, I'm like, oh. I'm like, yes, it's 00:36:59.179 --> 00:37:01.260 perfect. Like I literally, I was like, it's perfect 00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:04.199 because this is what we're all feeling. This 00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.260 shift of like seeing dark, dark, dark, living 00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:09.360 in dark, dark, dark, and getting this light, 00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:11.840 this joy. So I thank you for writing it. And 00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.659 I thank you for coming on our podcast and for 00:37:14.659 --> 00:37:16.820 giving us your time. This was such a pleasure. 00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:20.260 I loved having the opportunity to discuss the 00:37:20.260 --> 00:37:21.760 stuff that like previously was just like in my 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:24.059 head. So I'm happy. Thank you so much. Have a 00:37:24.059 --> 00:37:26.409 great evening. We'll talk soon. Yes. Thank you 00:37:26.409 --> 00:37:30.429 so much. Thank you. Bye -bye. So we have arrived 00:37:30.429 --> 00:37:34.190 once again to our moment of sunshine, which is 00:37:34.190 --> 00:37:37.469 very apropos given that we've been talking about 00:37:37.469 --> 00:37:40.110 dystopia and anti -dystopia. So I'm going to 00:37:40.110 --> 00:37:43.389 go first. I'm going to take it. Shocker. Shocker. 00:37:43.409 --> 00:37:48.309 My moment of sunshine is an entire evening. We 00:37:48.309 --> 00:37:53.119 had a Galentine's party. Oh, you're taking my 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:56.480 moment of sunshine. Listeners, it actually was 00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.440 Diana because everyone in our group has ADHD 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.880 and no one can commit to plans. We often need 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.860 Diana to mother hen us into a plan because if 00:38:05.860 --> 00:38:08.199 it was us, all we would do is just like say, 00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:10.880 let's just show up somewhere. Yeah, let's go 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:13.739 to Philly on a Friday night with no reservations, 00:38:13.980 --> 00:38:16.119 with no plans. Let's just figure it out. Oh, 00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.500 also it's Valentine's Day weekend. We're just 00:38:18.500 --> 00:38:23.360 going to show up somewhere. So yes, credit where 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:27.019 credit's due, Diana planned the entire Galentine's 00:38:27.019 --> 00:38:29.219 and did a fabulous job, which is why it's my 00:38:29.219 --> 00:38:31.599 moment of sunshine. And because I'm this generous, 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.400 I will let you share this moment with me. So 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.360 it can be awkward moment. Is this why Galentine's 00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:41.440 Day present? This is better. This is better. 00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:44.050 No, you know what? I'm taking it. I'm stealing 00:38:44.050 --> 00:38:47.050 it. It was an awesome night. We went to see a 00:38:47.050 --> 00:38:49.409 burlesque show. We went out to dinner. We had 00:38:49.409 --> 00:38:52.409 margaritas and tacos. It was delicious. It's 00:38:52.409 --> 00:38:54.329 a good moment of sunshine. And it brought us 00:38:54.329 --> 00:38:58.130 so much joy, like so much joy. I'm still like 00:38:58.130 --> 00:39:00.889 joyful from Friday night. The restaurant was 00:39:00.889 --> 00:39:03.650 just so fun. The food was delicious. The entertainment 00:39:03.650 --> 00:39:07.719 was. Fantastic. But if we're really talking about 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:11.679 anti -dystopia and the antidote to the hellscape 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:15.440 that is our world, feeling present in a moment, 00:39:15.500 --> 00:39:19.559 laughing and... connecting with your friends 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:23.920 like that checked every box so it was just really 00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:26.960 fun next week on everyone deserves sunshine we're 00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.639 talking about queer representation this one is 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.659 at the heart of the show obviously and we're 00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:35.659 gonna have a guest to help us unwrap all of the 00:39:35.659 --> 00:39:38.000 things all of the things the show all of the 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:40.719 strings all of the strings all of the things 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:43.639 so we're excited we're excited subscribe now 00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:45.900 wherever you get your podcast and if you want 00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:48.610 to say hi to the girls in the Find us on Instagram, 00:39:48.750 --> 00:39:51.730 Facebook, and Threads at EveryoneDeservesSunshine. 00:39:51.769 --> 00:39:55.510 And email us at EveryoneDeservesSunshine at gmail 00:39:55.510 --> 00:39:58.329 .com because we love your emails and we will 00:39:58.329 --> 00:40:02.090 always respond. New episodes drop Mondays. See 00:40:02.090 --> 00:40:02.389 you then.