Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine, I'm Diana.
And I'm Anusha. We're the girls in the crease.
Anusha, so I realized this past week that I have
even less self -control than I thought I had,
which is already very little. I swore to myself
and to everyone else that I will not, I will
not read any of the books. I remember. Well,
I didn't want to spoil it for myself for season
two, but then what had happened was... I kept
seeing spoilers on threads and on Insta. And
at some point I was like, okay, well, it's either
going to get spoiled by other people or I can
read it myself. And they are very good books.
Oh my God, they are so good. So I have already
read Heated Rivalry, Game Changers, and Role
Models. Somebody said you have to read Role Models
first because they intersect a lot. So I finished
all of those books, each book. per day because
I couldn't stop. But now that I am here with
The Long Game, my best friend and I are reading
it together and we have decided we will savor
every single word, every single period because
we don't want it to ever, ever end. And so we
have set a limit to three chapters a day, which
is honestly killing me because I'll read the
three chapters and I'm addicted. I'm jonesing
for it all day long. And I'm also terrified to
get heartbroken. So I'm taking it really slowly,
but I'm already... heartbroken. First of all,
I'm so excited for you that you're reading the
books. Second, I also am reading everything entirely
out of order. So I understand the first way you're
reading books, but my God, the way you're describing
reading the long game is like completely impossible
for me to understand because once I start a book,
I can't stop until it's done. I have to tell
you a little story. So one of my dear college
friends would like read a few. chapters a day
or write a few pages of her senior thesis a day.
And I was so jealous because I would watch her
work and it was like watching an alien because
I was not able to have that degree of self -discipline
at all. So that is not how I work. That is not
how I read. That has a lot to do with my ADHD.
Wow. That was a really good setup for our show,
Anusha. I try. I do try. All right. You do. You
really are great at this. Okay, everyone. This
is episode... Girls in the Crease talk about
neurodivergence. Before we get started, I do
want to make it really clear what we're doing
here. We're not armchair diagnosing. The writers,
the actors, the director all confirm that Shane
is neurodivergent. What we're talking about today
is the coding in the show and how neurodivergence
shows up in behavior, pacing, communications,
and relationships. For a lot of viewers with
autism, this wasn't like a reveal. And I've seen
a lot of commentary about it online. So we're
not sitting here doing a diagnostic checklist.
Yes, not doing that. Right, we're not doing that.
And like Rachel Reed has talked about it pretty
openly. She said that when she wrote Heated Virally,
she wasn't really consciously thinking like,
oh, OK, I'm writing this like autistic character.
But then later, after going through the long
and complicated process of getting her oldest
son diagnosis, she looked back and realized like,
oh, yeah, like Shane is probably autistic because
she was writing him as what she knew, right,
in her own son. And Hudson Williams said his
actual real life dad is on the spectrum. He talks
about his dad's sensitivities and how connected
he feels to him and how that has informed his
own performance as Shane. When Hudson Williams
was looking at the script, he immediately saw
what he needed to do. And he empathized with
the characters because of his own dad. Yeah.
Yeah. I did read that about Hudson's father being
on the spectrum. So Hudson has said he has ADHD.
And I think this sort of ADHD wiring, it comes
with, I call it pattern recognition on steroids.
And a lot of it, at least in sort of my experience
of having ADHD, is this intuitive understanding
of social and emotional patterns, reading people.
And I can see how combined with Hudson's experiences
being with his dad, how that would help Hudson
bring Shane. who has been described as sort of
a very internal character to life. And I also
want to add that I love that you said your caveat
about not an armchair diagnosis in the beginning.
I wanted to add something else to that because...
Shane's portrayal is one experience of autism.
He's verbal. He's a high performer. He has support
systems. He can mask when it's needed. But this
is not the only autistic experience. There are
autistic people who have higher support needs,
whose experiences aren't shown in the show. And
I don't want to erase that reality as a neurodivergent
person. person myself and as a pediatrician,
to me, saying that is really important. But I
also think it's okay to discuss this flavor of
neurodivergence, what it does well, what it means
to us, and still give space to that fact that
this isn't. encompassing of the entire autistic
spectrum. And that's OK. That's OK. I just wanted
to acknowledge that, though. You're right. And
like this portrayal is not meant to stand in
for all autism, obviously. Right. But it is meaningful
that we're finally seeing an autistic character
who is competent, desired, emotionally deep.
Right. And not like framed as a problem that
needs to be solved or a lesson to be learned.
Tell me, Diana, when did it occur to you that
Shane was autistic? Was there like a moment,
you know? It's interesting because people we're
friends with, they know that we're doing this
episode on neurodivergence. So many of them were
like, but is he autistic? And so a lot of people
didn't actually notice that he was autistic because
they're like, well, is he actually autistic?
Or are you guys like diagnosing him yourselves?
You know, I have many, many, many neurodivergent
people in my life. As a teacher too, like I am
very quickly to pick up on these things. But
with Shane, I immediately... The very first moment
where he and Ilya are going to have their very
first sexual encounter. And Shane very neatly
folds his clothes. Now, listen, when you're having
like a hot sexual event happen. And you're first.
Right. You're first. And it's like so hot. And
it already had started, right? They already made
out. He already. Gave him a blowjob. Right. So
so they're in the middle of it. And this boy
like takes his pants and like neatly folds them
over the couch. And like you could see Ilya like
look at him and smile. To me, like that scene
right there was like, oh, baby. I felt the same
way as Ilya. Like, look at this boy. Like, he's
so sweet. Like, look at how he folds his clothes.
At that point, I was like, maybe like because
again, like we're not used to seeing it. like
presented so gently right like and so and I'm
like no it's just me being a teacher and then
I'm like Wait a second. When he can't sleep in
his hotel room in the very beginning and he goes
to the gym in the evening, he makes his bed too.
I saw that and then I kept getting reinforcement
like, all right, I'm not nuts. I understand what's
happening here. It's very subtle. It's very lovely.
But it is there. It's definitely present. And
also now that I've, as everybody knows, I'm reading
the books and I'm not giving anything away. But
in the books, it's even more obvious that he's
definitely neurodivergent. So interesting that
you said that moment, because I think one of
the things about Jacob Tyranny and Hudson and
all the people involved and Rachel Reed was a
producer, too, on the show is that you realize
how intentional each direction is. You know what
I mean? Like you go back and you're like, they
didn't accidentally put in that folding of pants
scene. So I can see how that moment. clicked
something in your head for me because I watched
this in like the depth of night under my blankets
and I watched so many episodes in a row and like
a complete vacuum I think um it was like the
overall gestalt after seeing Shane on the screen
for a while I feel like I was um I feel like
I was in the middle before I knew it began, which,
by the way, is a quote from Pride and Prejudice.
Of course, I would connect Mr. Darcy and Shane
Hollander. But but in retrospect, I will say
that the show actually actually like very much
sets the stage for this early in episode one.
So when that hockey announcer says he may not
be the most sociable, but this is the kid with
the highest hockey IQ out there clocked. You're
like, boom, there it is. Set up, set up, right?
I feel like that line does so much work because
it establishes that Shane processed the world
differently. He strategizes the game differently.
And that's meant to be brilliant. Like that's
what gives him his competitive edge. In that
same line says the social stuff is harder. Yes.
And I think that that thread of the hockey obsession
sort of goes the entire way through the series.
And the books. Because Shane reads only hockey
books. You know, it's the hockey books on his
nightstand. He reads nothing else. He has this
deep special interest that becomes an expertise.
Yeah, that's a pretty classic autistic trait.
Pretty classic. I know. When I went back for
my... Second rewatch. And I heard that line again.
I'm like, oh, oh, you were right here the whole
time. You were here, you know. And like, once
you start noticing it, you see it everywhere.
Their first, you know, encounter, Ilya comes
in and he's like, I thought you were going to
chicken out. And Shane is like, I'm not a chicken.
So literal, you know. When he's doing the interview
in French, right? Mr. Perfect in French. Yeah.
And then the reporter asks him, you're being
compared to Serena Williams and Tiger Woods.
Do you agree with that? that or whatever. And
he's like, I don't think about stuff like that.
And I remember he doesn't. And he's not being
humble. It's just not how his brain works. Like
he doesn't think about stuff like that. Right.
His communication is explicit, literal and precise.
And this is where I really want to pause because
that seems to get misunderstood often. But literalism
is not lack of intelligence or lack of emotional
depth. It's just a different processing style.
He's actually just taking people at their word
and very much face. Yeah. Yeah. What you see
is what you get. OK, can I add another hilarious
moment to this list of moments we're collecting?
So in episode four, when Hayden tells Shane his
wife Jackie is pregnant with their fourth child
and Shane just in complete disbelief goes again.
And Hayden is like, holy shit, dude, you have
to work on your lying. Shane does not have that
capacity to lie, especially when it comes to
these like off the cuff moments. Right. And it's
so hilarious because it's so honest. He's not
trying to be rude. There's no malice in it. I
feel like in the hands of someone else, it could
be read as judgmental. But with Shane, it's just
the sort of the earnestness you describe, you
know, just taking everyone at what they say,
face value. One of the things I also loved about
that scene is it gives you a glimpse into Hayden
and Shane's friendship because Hayden laughs.
He's not offended at all. And he kind of loves
him for it. He knows Shane at this point, even
when it's awkward, maybe especially when it's
awkward. It's endearing to him. And I loved that.
friendship development between someone who is
coded as being autistic and the relationships.
I think the show did that really well. But that
moment really struck me. I think it's such a
beautiful moment between those two friends. And
there's so many other ways that the show depicts
Shane's neurodivergence without announcing it.
He doesn't get flirting much, unless it's like
very explicit. He takes jokes literally. He does
ask clarifying questions often instead of trying
to infer. Because he realizes that he needs certain
structure and certain needs met for him to truly
understand. And listen, he follows instructions
exactly the way they are from from the get on
your knees. And then he just drops, just drops,
totally drops to you make eight burgers. And
this is the recipe. So you're going to make exactly
eight burgers. Why don't you cut it in half?
And that like that follows instructions piece
is like so important. It's safety. Like, you
know, the precision is calming. Right. Ambiguity
for him is like distressful. Like he doesn't
like it. It makes him feel uncomfortable. Yeah.
And also the instructions are meant to be like
they're meant to be their instructions. You're
supposed to follow them. You know, it's like
not just calming. It's also. kind of his baseline.
That's what you do. That's what you do. I mean,
to be honest, I also make recipes like this.
I will follow the instructions to a T. I don't
know how to double it. I don't know how to half
it. But I think that's my math problem more than
anything. Same here. I'm not going to blame that
one on my neurodivergence. That's a math issue.
That's a math issue. But for Shane, it's not.
I have a feeling he's very good at math, you
know, because he's so smart. But anyway, what
we're talking about is coding, right? The show
is depicting sensory overload, flat affect, processing.
time, masking anxiety. And what makes Shane's
neurodivergence feel so real is that none of
it's announced. It's just embedded into everything
he does because that's how it is in real life.
And so his on -screen presence handles with so
much care and so much love. We don't usually
see neurodivergent characters like that. And
he's just allowed to be Shane, not Shane with
autism. Even Shane doesn't know that. Absolutely.
And I agree with you 100 % that the show portrays
Shane with such nuance. I mean, I think the list
Listeners are going to be tired of hearing the
word nuance. But I mean, we use it all the time.
Yeah, we say it all the time. It's a great word,
though. Like it's a very pretty word. It rolls
off your tongue quite nicely. It does. And it's
so perfect for the show because sometimes I feel
like you get this trope of a weird genius or
sort of deficit based. Right. That's that's what
you get. And this one is not. pathologizing.
I think what you're saying, it's just very humanizing,
you know, just a human experience. And like you
said in the beginning, this professional lens
that we have, it's really hard to take off, but
I'm trying to undo some of that for myself. So
let's talk about how this very clinical way facial
expression is sometimes talked about in autistic
folks, right? Sometimes it's called like a blunted
affect or restricted affect. And it's really
a clinical phrase because divergence was a medical
pathology not that long ago. Right. Right. And
now we're talking about it as a variation on
existence, really, at least in some ways and
not minimizing support needs, et cetera. But
again, it's like this like very clinical way
of looking at someone. I feel like it frames
it as though emotional expressiveness is missing.
But my husband is autistic and he gave me permission
to sort of share this aspect of him because it
just informs so much of our mutual existence
together. When people converse, their face is
sort of like part of that social communication.
It's almost like a billboard. You're nodding,
you're smiling, you're moving your head, you're
talking with your hands, which I'm doing right
now. But my husband says that when he is talking
to someone else, it takes focus and energy and
processing. resources to understand the complexity
of these social interactions. It takes him actual
energy. And I don't notice that, you know, for
myself. And so he has this sometimes socially
neutral face. And that's especially true when
I'm radiating emotion, like when I'm hopped up
and hyped up. He like regulates himself because
you're so up there. Yeah. And he's trying to
actually. think about what I'm feeling during
these moments, his face becomes neutral is what
I was thinking of calling it. But it's not the
reduced capacity of emotions because both my
husband and Shane, you can see they're just such
deeply feeling people. It's just that when you
add the social piece, there's all this background
noise, the eye contact, the expectation, the
subtext that we non -autistic people doesn't
even occur to us that these things are happening.
It's just part of sort of our baseline. So it's
just been really fascinating, complicated to
learn all this in real life. And I think seeing
it on the show, it meant a lot to me. Hudson
has this thing he said about Shane, about the
scene in the cottage on the couch where they're
talking about the future. When he wants to kill
Ilya, when Ilya says, could marry Svetlana. And
Shane's like, I could murder you right now in
this cottage. No one knows you're here. Exactly.
Exactly. That scene. We've talked about this
sort of like how Shane almost wells up his eyes
with tears, but the tears don't fall. Glorious
acting. Glorious. How does that happen? Hudson
said that was a specific acting choice. He said
Shane's tears aren't really falling. They're
just welling up. It almost feels like Shane has
this notion that if you let the tears fall, now
you're crying. But if you don't let them fall.
My stomach hurts just thinking about that. Right?
Right? Oh, so beautiful. But if you let them
fall, Jacob Tyranny said something like, Shane
does not know how expressive he is. He just doesn't.
It's like he thinks he's masking better than
he actually is. Right. You know? Because he can't
see his own face. He can't. And he's just so
deeply feeling. At the end of the day, Shane
is just beautifully varied in his expressiveness
based on the context. In that context, it was
just Ilya, the cottage. He was deeply safe. And
I feel like the fact that Jacob and Hudson really
got that is just unbelievable. It's like a chef's
kiss. It's such sophisticated. an authentic and
gentle representation. I love that you used the
word sophisticated because that's literally what
it is. It is so sophisticated. It's so beautiful.
It's so well done. Shane is, you can read all
the emotions in his face most of the time. You
really can. And that's beautiful. And episode
five was such a good example of that because
he feels so deeply without broadcasting it in
the way that we're used to seeing on TV, right?
Also the part where he comes out to Rose and
he's so... emotionally controlled right yet you
could see that he's feeling so much at that point
like and there's also this internal shift for
him he hits a tipping point and he acts right
and while he doesn't emote expansively he just
makes precise decisive moves with his facial
expressions and his eyes and like tears same
thing in that moment the tears don't quite fall
right and it's not coldness. You can never say
he's cold. That moment, he kind of understands
he can't hide anymore. He's being explicitly
asked, are you gay? And the funny thing is, like,
she tries to go about it in a different way,
right? In the very beginning. She's like, so
did you notice that Miles is gay? And then she
goes, you know what? I think I'm going about
this the wrong way. And she immediately goes,
OK, you know what? This is not working. This
is not working. I need to be a little bit more
explicit with this man. This show makes it very
easy for us to have like brilliant insights.
It's really great. Well, I mean, you know, it's
just a brilliant show. So it's really easy to
talk about it in the context of really anything.
The themes! The themes! I love reading other
people's thoughts, not just my own, obviously.
And it was this man, David Samuel Levinson. And
he said, for a lot of us who grew up different,
that wasn't part of the norm. I think heated
rivalry hits us much more deeply because the
whole show is about being seen and not just being
seen, but being accepted, not just being tolerated,
but being accepted for who you are. That's the
power of the show. And so someone shared that.
within their own context and basically talked
about how autistic viewers feel about the show
and why they react so strongly. Not because the
show told them something new, but because it
trusted them to recognize themselves in it, you
know? Shows and movies tend to reduce neurodivergent
characters to cliches, right? And make it the
entire personality of that specific character.
But Shane is just himself. He has anxiety. He's
a little socially awkward. People have to literally
beg him to hang out with him. That is refreshing.
And I also think it's really refreshing to see
this intersection between masculinity to this
neurodivergent coding, right? OK, tell me what
you mean. Right. So Shane's neurodivergent traits
are not softened to make him more palatable.
He's still desired. He's respected. Right. He's
emotionally steady and he's pretty sexually confident
in his own way. Maybe not the way others think
is, but he is. Right. The fact that he literally.
First time he meets Ilya for an encounter, gets
down on his knees immediately. That's got to
be some confidence right there because like,
you know, he doesn't know. He doesn't. He's never
done it. And he doesn't perform masculinity because
he can't. He doesn't know how. He can't perform
much, but he's still chosen. And I love that.
I love everything. That's a really good point.
You don't want to ever leave. You never, never
want to leave. I don't. I don't. I'm very happy
here. Yeah. I actually really, really, really
love that you said that because I feel like sometimes
when you're coded in an autistic way or neurodivergent
way, it's sort of like it becomes like you're
not as masculine, you know, and this does not.
do that at all it just presents different ways
i i totally totally agree with that and here's
an one other really interesting thing that the
show does it never actually says shane is autistic
and i just really really feel like that works
because there's this thread in the whole show
that sometimes you don't need that categorical
vocabulary to present your experience here's
what i mean by that When Ilya says, I'm not gay,
not completely, he's not using sort of categorical
language. He's just kind of telling you what
he feels like his life experience is. And then
when Shane comes out to his parents and his dad's
like, well, Ilya, I thought you were a bit of
a ladies' man. And Shane tells his parents that
Ilya likes both, as in both men and women. Sort
of people are just who they are. I'm not saying
that explicit naming doesn't matter. It totally
does. Representation matters. Kids who are autistic,
seeing a character named as autistic as being
loved and successful and all the things Shane
is, it matters. It matters. But for this particular
show, the coding doesn't feel like hiding. You
know what I mean? To me. It feels like trust.
It feels like they're showing the viewers who
exactly Shane is and trusting the audience to
meet them there. That's why we're all talking
about the neurodivergence in heated rivalry.
And that's because even though it's not explicitly
stated, Jacob Tierney and Hudson chose this one
path and they. executed it just beautifully right
beautifully yeah i agree you're saying how like
you know the the show the creators are trusting
the audience to like meet shane where he's at
right and like i think that i often think about
you know, in my career as a teacher, how when
kids come into my classroom, I have to be able
to also look for things to make sure that I am
giving my kids the services that they need and
deserve. But schools are basically a lab for
masking, right? Sometimes kids are labeled rude,
but they're actually overloaded. Kids sometimes
are labeled. that they don't care, but they actually
just have a processing lag or a flat affect,
right? Kids will get called control freaks, but
like they're just self -regulating. They thrive
in routine. And then the bright, compliant kids
get missed because they're functional until they're
not. Until they're not. And that maps perfectly
into Shane. He's elite. He knows what he's doing.
Highest IQ, right? Like, that's his own reward
system. But no one asks him what it costs him,
you know? And so his functioning... Doesn't mean
he's thriving. Early in my teaching career, I
didn't get some of that. So I was probably someone
who was like, oh, my God, this kid's being rude
or doesn't care about what we're doing. But then,
like, with experience, I started to realize,
like, oh, like, no, like, I need to look at every
kid in their own way to make sure that I give
them, like, meet them where they are at. They
can't meet me. I'm the adult in the room. And
Ilya does that. For Shane, actually. Ilya definitely
does that. He meets Shane where he is often.
You could see Ilya switch a lot of the times
where he's joking around with Shane or asking
him questions or saying things to him. And he
realizes Shane isn't processing exactly how Ilya
means for it to be processed. So then Ilya will
accommodate and modify his behavior and his language
to meet Shane where Shane is. That's so beautiful.
I definitely, definitely think that. relieves
some of that masking and social anxiety because
if you think about it kids like Shane or those
kids in your class they're accommodating all
the time whether or not you have needs like kids
are always accommodating to adults add on top
of this neurodivergence those kids are accommodating
every single moment you know I can see how tiring
that can be how much social anxiety that would
give you. I definitely relate to this conversation
about masking, especially as I was thinking back
as like a young girl with ADHD. First of all,
back then, saying back then makes me sound like
so ancient. I mean, we're not that young anymore.
So I think we can use back then. Neurodivergence
was not. on people's radar the way it is now,
especially if you didn't present in this classical
way. Like for ADHD, you know, it's that boy who
can't sit still, who's bouncing off the walls,
who's interrupting, etc. And I was none of those
things. I was very self -contained. I sat nicely
at my desk. And from the outside, I looked like
the perfect student. But inside, I was just...
complete mess. Even as a child, I just remember
feeling the sense of being a total, total imposter.
Even before I knew the phrase imposter syndrome,
I felt like I was one glitch away from collapse.
Always, always. And I know I want to hug you
right now. It's true. It did. And it got worse
as I was getting older because then I didn't
have. parental scaffolding that kids have. And
I was supposed to become more independent over
my work. And on top of that, I actually had some
real weaknesses in my learning profile. As you
know, Diana, I'm a really bad speller. So like
my parents are Indian and Indians are obsessed
with spelling bees. It's like a thing. And my
parents would enter me in so many spelling bees
outside of the school ones. And I would be out
in the first round. But they kept going. It was
so mortifying. I mean, I couldn't understand.
I couldn't understand because I felt like I could
write and I was articulate with my ideas, but
spelling, it was such a disaster. But now I know
it's part of like the sequencing aspect that
I have trouble with, the working memory thing.
Now I can't make fun of you for it. That's messed
up. I'm still going to do it. I'm still going
to do it. You're going to do it despite my neurodivergence.
I can't even begin to tell you how much of a
character flaw it felt like to have this ADHD
style of procrastination. But it's actually not
procrastination. It's like task paralysis. That's
what it's called. It's wanting to do the thing,
knowing I need to do the thing, still being completely
unable to start it, ruminating. miserably about
not doing the thing for hours and I am in agony
I'm my brain just can't like get itself to release
the dopamine it needs to start this process until
it gets to like the 11th hour and you have been
in the receiving end of this too at times and
now that I know that's classic executive dysfunction
and It's become even more difficult because as
a mom, executive functioning is like what moms
are supposed to do. And when I talk to my fellow
moms about this and everyone, they're like, I'm
the brain of the house. And I nod my head and
I feel like a complete. It's like you move forward
in life with some combination of whatever your
inherent intelligence is, your hyper focus. But
there's this like enormous compensatory effort
that's completely invisible. That's the masking.
You asked the question. Shane is surviving, but.
What's the cost? And that invisible struggle.
And it hits me really hard because that constant
I'm a failure dialogue that runs through your
head as a child, it messes with your self -esteem
like no other. It's like that gap between how
others perceive you and how you experience what
you do inside. That struggle, that way in which
Shane is portrayed on screen, it really, it hit
me so hard. Like just seeing. that. I thought
I was going to cry during the immigrant episode,
but here we are. I know you are. Why are you
crying? It makes me think about some of my students.
I used to teach 11th and 12th grade, so I would
have an 11th grader and I would have them again
as seniors. And, you know, you could, gosh, you
could see how kids who especially are undiagnosed,
how much they struggle and how much internal.
shame they have over that. And all I think to
myself, even though I will accommodate and oftentimes
I will fight for accommodations for them, I still
feel so deeply sad about the fact that they've
gone through their entire educational career
without having all these accommodations. And
they've come to believe that they are stupid
and they're not intelligent and they're not good
enough. And then all they really, really needed
was some sort of an accommodation from the very
beginning. That has always broken my heart. But
like, as you're talking about, it. You could
see that I have tears in my eyes because I just...
We need to do such a better job with that. Okay,
I'm done. I can't go on. Let's move on to the
next thing. Let's talk about something else.
No, I think it's true. It's not just the accommodation.
It's that understanding and the acceptance. And
here's the key part. It's like they need to learn
about how to learn. They need to learn to work
with their neurodivergence and not against it.
And that's a years -long process. But the first
step in that is really feeling that these elements
of your core self aren't some sort of character
flaw. Kudos for you for recognizing and, you
know, fighting for your kids when they needed
something. I remember every teacher who leaned
into my way of thinking and working. So that
carries forward. So everyone who did see me,
I always was really grateful for. I see you.
So Diana, can I tell you a story? Anytime. Always.
I say. Isn't that what we do here? That's what
we do. That's the entire premise. So as you know,
we live in a neurodivergent household and I just
want to. tell you this interpersonal relationship
thing that me and my husband had. I was diagnosed
with ADHD formally not very long ago as an adult.
And as part of the diagnosis, you know, the psychiatrist
gave me a questionnaire to give to someone who
knows me well, and they would fill it out. And
of course, I gave it to my husband. And I told
him... Should have given it to me. You'd get
all sorts of diagnoses. I know, exactly. So I
told him to fill it out with honesty. And also,
don't worry, I'm not going to read it. And so
he did. And he does honesty very well. He's very,
very honest. And he filled it out. He left it
in his office. And I came into his office when
he wasn't there. I was clearly looking for this
form. Even though you said you weren't going
to read it. And it was sitting in plain sight
on his desk. Completely unhidden. Of course I'm
looking. Of course I'm going to look. And I looked
and oh my God, it was not flattering at all.
It was like, God, I read this. I mean, you asked
someone with autism to be honest. I don't know
what you expected. Yes. Yes. It was, it was unbridled
autistic honesty. I was so mad at him. And I
said, is this what you think of me holding this
paper? And he's like, what are you doing with
that? You said you weren't going to look. And
part of me was like, I am definitely going to
get that ADHD diagnosis. Like definitely, definitely
going to get it. So the intent has been accomplished.
But my husband could not get past. You said you
weren't going to look. And I mean, that's a fair
thing to not get past, to be honest. He has known
me for this long. Has anything ever given you
the impression that I would stick to this in
our life? That's like such a... Neurodivergence.
But listen, you're still together. And we're
together and I got my diagnosis. So it's a win,
win, win. Well, I love that story. But this leads
very nicely into our next thing about interpersonal
relationships. I want to talk about the relationship
between Shane and Ilya, obviously, because what
else is this for? And I did bring this up earlier,
but I want to kind of like do a little bit more
of a deep dive. When you look at their relationship.
Through the neurodivergent lens, like you could
see that Ilya is genuinely like charmed by Shane's
quote unquote quirks, right? The folded clothes,
the earnest text, the logistics, the literalness.
But more than that, he also clocks like Shane's
needs and responds to those needs with care.
And I know that we've talked about Ilya being
an asshole. He like teases him and plays with
him. But like, I think, yes, but also that's
his personality. That's his personality. Correct.
And then but he also adjusts. Right. When Shane
panics, Ilya doesn't escalate. He helps regulate
him at the cottage when Shane's dad discovers
him. Right. Ilya grounds him instead of also
being dramatic. Right. He literally grounds.
He literally he hugs him really tight. Shane
is like, this is my literal. nightmare, Ilya.
This is my nightmare. And Ilya delivers one of
the best lines is, yeah, maybe it's time to wake
up. Yes. Like, oh, I want that tattooed. And
I've seen people getting tattoos of that. So
over time. Ilya learns how to read all of Shane's
micro impressions to notice when there's shift
in his expressions and to adjust in real time.
You can see it when he jokes early on. But after
their first sexual encounter together, they have
this like awesome time and Shane is so excited.
It's so good. And then you could see his face
changes and he's like, you're not going to tell
anyone. He gets really upset. And Ilya doesn't
quite understand. Like, he can't joke around,
especially at a time like this. So he does make
a joke at first. He's like, no shit. He says
it in Russian, like, неужели. But what he means
to say is, like, no shit. Like, obviously, I'm
not going to tell anyone. But Shane does not.
He does not. He does not accept that. So he like
shifts uncomfortably. He's completely serious.
And he says, because no one can know. And Ilya
immediately realizes, like, I can't be sarcastic
right now. So he says, I'm not going to tell
anyone. So he like learns that Shane does best
with explicit, clear communication. And the second
time they meet. When they're trying to decide
where they're going to meet again next time to
actually have sex for the first time. And so
Ilya's like, OK, well, we'll see each other next
time. Shane's like, next time. And he's like,
yeah, well, we're playing in Montreal in two
weeks. And Shane starts struggling. And Ilya's
like, we'll meet at your house. And Shane's like,
again, very literally, it's an apartment. Ilya
sees that he starts to spiral. He immediately
de -escalates with clarity instead of subtext.
He goes. It's just a plan to fuck. It definitely
regulates and de -escalates Shane in that moment.
In the moments people read as like super funny,
right? Like Shane earnestly answering how many
times he can come in an hour, right? Like noticing
that the bed is all dirty for the first time,
you know? The teeny tiny like teary smile when
Ilya wins the cup. Like the quote, being boring
is genetic jokes, right? Shane, like, followed
by, like, the sincere, like, really? Like, none
of these are jokes. None of these are jokes at
Shane's expense. Ilya does not joke at Shane's
expense. When he calls Shane boring all the time,
like, that word. does a lot of work in their
relationship. For Ilya, boring doesn't mean like
dull or uninteresting. It means safe, predictable,
like grounding, right? These moments aren't supposed
to be punchlines. They're just windows in how
Shane experiences the world. And what Ilya does
so beautifully is meet him there, translate the
world into something Shane can actually stand
inside without flinching or feeling uncomfortable
or feeling like he can't be himself. And I think
that's genius. I really do. Yes to all of that.
I think one of the things, words you used is
like charmed. I think Shane really disarms Ilya.
It flips the script because society often frames
neurodivergence as the thing that is being accommodated.
But the show and the books make it clear that
Shane gives a lot. to Ilya too. Shane gives Ilya
certainty because he doesn't do any games. He
has no subtext. Right, right. And I can imagine
for Ilya in a foreign land navigating all these
like customs that are new and unspoken that must
feel so refreshing. He approaches Ilya with curiosity
and not judgment. And I think sometimes that
curiosity is waved away from Ilya because he
sees it for what it is, which is an interest.
You know, maybe I'm too into you as Shane says
and sometimes as the audience you know we talked
a little bit about that in the last episode we're
like why are you asking this extremely obvious
question Shane I'm thinking about where Shane
asks about Ilya's feelings about Russia and his
family in Russia at first glance you're like
read the room but you know the thing is Shane
can't actually read the room like that he's asking
because he's genuinely curious and wants to know
about Ilya from the beginning and he wants it
from ilia about ilia so i feel like when we talk
about accommodations in this relationship the
show and the books make it really clear it's
not one directional it's not just shane receiving
understanding he's providing something equally
he is he's providing safety clarity he's providing
the space for ilia to just be himself yeah absolutely
and like shane also learns because toward the
end in the cottage when he asks ilia have you
talked to your family and ilia said no and instead
of instead of just like letting it go shane asks
a clarifying question and that question is is
that a good thing shane needs to understand right
like how does ilia actually feel about the fact
that he's not talking to his family is he sad
is he not right like so shane adapts to everyone
but because he has to but here he adapts because
he wants to he wants to be there for ilia in
the way that ilia also needs just like ilia is
there for shane that like how shane needs shane
sort of operates from this place of moral clarity
almost he has this like really consistent ethical
framework what is right what is wrong patterns
routines um And I felt like I used to say, oh,
he's just like good and pure. While that might
be true, I feel like it's sort of infantilizing.
Shane is not naive. It's just that he doesn't
lead with suspicion. They don't spend that energy
calculating, like, what's your deal? Yeah, that's
good. Here's another thing the show does really
well, because Shane... I feel like forgives very
readily when there's a genuine apology. Like
I'm thinking about the scene when they're in
the bathroom after the award. Ilya has essentially
ghosted Shane. And then Ilya comes close and
Shane just goes. Like he folds into him. And
I mean, it was pretty sexy, but it wasn't driven
entirely by lust. Shane just took his sort of,
I want to get back with you. at face value. And
I see that too in my husband. I don't think it's
because they're like more angelic than the average
person. I think it's because when they hear the
problem named and they feel like there's a genuine
apology, it's done. It's done. Oh my God. I wish.
I wish that I had that inherently because then
there's less need for someone to linger in the
herd and the transgression has been acknowledged.
The closure is done. Let's move on. And it's
like super, super refreshing. And when they're
texting back, Ilya does like still mad, still
mad about Vegas. And Shane's like, I'm not mad
about anything. Like, and he really isn't. He's
let it go. So it makes perfect sense. Yeah, that's
a good. Oh, that's a good one. I didn't think
of that one. Yeah, I would be mad forever. Girl,
I know. Anusha, thank you so much for this discussion.
I... I... I think it's an important one. I hope
we did it justice. And I think it's time to move
on to our favorite part of the show. Our moment
of sunshine. So this is a very theme specific
moment. So as part of my ADHD, I have this thing
called a 3 a .m. alarm. Well, it's actually not
3 a .m. It's 310 a .m. And it's like when I wake
up to work. So like in the throes of college,
medical school, residency, I'd wake up to work.
Because at 310, it's the dead of night and literally
everything is quiet. The world is quiet. My brain
is quiet. There's no distractions. There's no
expectations. Everything is silent and my brain
works relatively well. I was talking to my husband
about this show and he takes his phone out and
he shows me his standard alarms and on it. is
the 310 alarm. And not that he wakes up every
night at 310. Sometimes if it's like a really
big thing, I'll ask him to just like turn it
on too in case I snooze mine. But yeah, he's
had that. So your moment of sunshine is waking
up at 310 and your husband having the same alarm
to help you wake up at 310. My moment of sunshine
is that since he's known me, he's had this. on
his phone since he's had an iphone that's very
sweet right okay so what's your moment of sunshine
well as you know our friends get together for
a very quick coffee most fridays it's usually
like four or five of us and we are catching up
for the week. It gives me the energy and life
to last me for the next Friday. It just brings
me so, so much joy. It's so fun when I can come.
As you also know, most of our friends that we
get together with have ADHD. They're all neurodivergent.
They're all neurodivergent. And I am, according
to the rest of you, is the only neurotypical
in the group. Well, less than. I wouldn't say
I'm completely, right? spend my Friday mornings
drinking coffee and trying my best to understand
all the conversations that are happening at the
same time. Because during breakfast, there are
about two or three conversations going on at
the same time between four or five people. And
I could never. I mean, it's nonlinear. I can
never finish a story. I sometimes wonder. I mean,
see, I'm literally you're literally. right now
you're literally proving it right now I cannot
friends listeners I cannot get an entire story
out in one breath I can't I'm not I actually
wonder sometimes if my friends actually know
who I am because they won't let me talk without
interruptions and I love them all so much that
I have been accommodating To this version of
storytelling for years, for years. Do you guys
know me at all? So we do know you very well.
We know all the things about you. We just don't
need to hear it in a straight line. That's the
difference. That's the difference. But we have
digested everything about you deeply in our hearts.
And we know you. We know you. But anyway, that's
my moment of sunshine. You know, most Fridays,
whenever we can get away, we just do our hour
brekkie, you know. get in there and it's awesome
I love that and non -linear and non -linear Next
week on Everyone Deserves Sunshine, we're talking
about music. I'm super excited to talk about
this topic and also to hear about your rape situation.
Yeah, we're going to talk about that. So subscribe
now wherever you get your podcasts. And if you
want to say hi to the girls in the crease, find
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Or email us at EveryoneDeservesSunshine at gmail
.com. New episodes drop on Mondays. See you then.