Welcome to Everyone Deserves Sunshine, I'm Diana.
And I'm Anusha, we're the girls in the crease.
Okay, let me preface by saying I'm fighting a
cold. My voice is gonna be a little hoarse, okay?
I apologize, I'm trying my best. Can I just tell
you how absolutely blown away I am by the number
of listeners we have across the world? I am so
honored also that we have so many Canadian listeners.
I mean, this is a Canadian show about a Canadian
sport, so it just makes me so happy. And I check
this. morning, and our Canadian listeners surpassed
the listeners here in the U .S. They're listening
to us talk about it. It warms my heart. And we
have listeners from 33 different countries, which
is kind of insane, right? That's insane. That's
truly insane. 33 countries want to hear us talk.
It's crazy. And I love it. Well, like maybe like
one person per country. But yes. Yeah, let's
just. Yeah, exactly. I'm so grateful that Canada
produced the show for us and saved Christmas
and Hanukkah and New Year's and all the holidays.
All of them. All of them. And potentially saved
us all from demise. Potentially that. Potentially
that. Saved us all. Saved us all. I know. You
know what? We received. so much feedback thank
you to all of the listeners who are not only
taking the time to listen but to also send us
feedback this is totally new for us we've never
done this before so we really appreciate we have
never done this before so we really do appreciate
any feedback you have for us feel free to email
us as well and you can leave your comments on
anywhere you listen to the podcast i wanted to
read two comments anusha listening to this podcast
is like hanging out with good friends and talking
about a tv show you like i like that one that's
exactly what we're aiming for i love that that's
the hope right yeah the second one which i think
you're gonna have something to say about this
okay is and i quote I was embarrassed by the
Wawa tuna melt, but loved everything else. Your
tuna melt was an entire debacle. I just you like
broke the Internet. I know. I know. I am so sorry.
My God, I just feel like I need to address this
whole Wawa Tuna Melt disaster. So I apologize,
listeners. I apologize, friends. I'm going to
try again. I'm going to do better. Please give
me another chance. I am not going to embarrass
you. I won't embarrass you too, Diana. I won't.
Wow, it's a little too late for that. But don't
worry, listeners. As she said, I have taken it
upon myself to make her a legitimate Tuna Melt.
In fact, our friends are going to have an entire
competition. Hopefully, one of our tuna mouths
will melt your heart more than the Wawa one did.
That's a tall order, but I'm so into it. And
I'm also very into the theme for our discussion
today. So take it away, Diana. All right. It's
episode three and we're talking about the immigrant
experience. I really wanted to do this episode
on the immigrant experience because it has a
character from Russia and my background is Eastern
European. I'm Soviet born. My family is from
different parts of Eastern Europe. And, you know,
when I watched the show and I saw this Russian
character, I almost didn't want to watch it because
of that. Yeah. And because I kind of expected
it to be like your stereotypical Russian character.
But obviously, when I watched more of it, I really
felt like I was watching some of my like childhood
and some of my own experiences that I've had.
So it's like a very deeply personal topic for
me. And I hope that I can get through this episode
without crying. So apologies. But that is what
I've been doing a lot of these days. So yeah,
we know you are now a crier. Yeah. Okay. This
hits so, so close to home for me, too. I feel
you on that as a fellow immigrant. And it's even
more haunting to me because, honestly, of where
we are in this moment in time in the United States.
And what I love about Hated Rivalry is that the
immigrant story is always present without it
becoming sort of this, quote unquote, very special
episode. You know what I mean? It just permeates
through the entire series. They don't just mention
it once. for sort of lip service. So it feels
so authentic and naturally unfolding. How old
were you when you came to the U .S.? I was 11.
I was born in, like I said, the Soviet Union,
but actually Uzbekistan. It's part of Central
Asia, not actually Russia. I was born there,
as I said, when it was the Soviet Union. So I
consider myself Soviet born. How old were you
when you came here? I was eight when I came to
the States. like a similar age as you. My dad
was already in the U .S. and my mom and I were
in Chennai, India. That's where I was living.
And so we had this vague notion that we would
be moving to the U .S. in the next year or so.
But then we got a call in March and found out
we had about two weeks. to pack up our whole
lives and move. And not only that, we were going
to be traveling with my uncle and staying with
him. And my uncle, by the way, was going to get
married in those two weeks to a woman he met
maybe twice. In India? Yeah. He was going to
get married in India, getting married and then
bringing us all back. So then my uncle, his new
wife, my mom, and I moved into his tiny apartment
in Colorado. He decided to take us camping in
Yellowstone. In March. I mean, I didn't even
have a winter coat at that time. I think I think
we got my winter coat as we were driving to the
campsite. Yeah. That's like a like a welcome
to America. Yeah, that was definitely, definitely.
And I think my uncle wanted this to be his honeymoon
surprise for his new wife. So picture this. We
went from sharing this one bedroom apartment
to a single tent because, of course, we didn't
splurge for two tents. And then we set that tent
up. on a hill because none of us had ever camped
before. Like this was a new experience. And so
every morning we'd wake up miserable and cold
and like a pile at the bottom of the tent because
again, hill, march, Yellowstone. And then my
aunt just completely refused to do it. And we
checked in to an econo lodge. I still remember
the hotel, like all of this in very vivid detail.
So that's my coming to America story. It's not.
As glamorous as being the number one draft pick
for the NHL, like Ilya. So a little different.
No, a little different. Not as glamorous. But,
you know, your own story. We all have our own
stories, you know. And by the way, it took me
less than two months to have a full on American
accent. Less than two months. I learned most
of my English the summer after we came here.
By watching I Love Lucy and all these like other
old shows. I know. I know. And like it's funny
because like some people will say I have an accent,
but they never think I'm an immigrant. They always
like, oh, are you from like the Northeast? Like
you have a Northeast accent. I honestly don't
know. I definitely have a little bit of an accent.
with some words more than others but you know
what it is what it is for sure so you know it's
interesting that you bring up belonging because
i think that leads in quite nicely into talking
about ilia and this like him never quite belonging
anywhere you know when i look at ilia And I'm
just going to tell the listeners like I have
I have such a soft spot for that man. I cannot
even express to you. I haven't noticed that at
all about you. No. Yeah. I don't know. I've been
very quiet about it, I think. But I just wanted
to be very transparent on this show and like
tell everyone that I just love him so much. He's
very lovable. He's an extremely lovable person.
I'm with you. I'm with you. He really is. Really.
But the funny thing is, he's not loved. too much
by western audiences especially not right away
not until later and i think that's because you
know he's very at first like very quickly portrayed
as this like russian tough guy almost like a
dangerous you know person like a hot -headed
chaotic right And so this is very stereotypical
about Russians in North America and especially,
you know, with hockey culture and everything.
So I get it. He's living between these two worlds.
He's recruited into a North American team. So
it's a huge part of him. But like a bigger part
of him is still very much Russian. And he's mentally
in both places, like here in the U .S. and in
Moscow. But to me, like Ilya is the epitome of
you never quite belong anywhere. And I felt like
that on a very personal level for a very long
time. When we first came here and, you know,
we moved to the Northeast and Philly, there's
a huge Russian community there to this day. And
I was very much ingrained in all of it. And when
I say Russian, I mean Russian speaking. All of
us are from different places, like the former
Soviet Union, right? It's such a huge place.
But the Russian language is primary. It's just
easier to say Russian. So I'm just using that
like interchangeably in that respect. Growing
up in that community, I definitely felt like
I belonged in so many ways, right? I speak Russian,
like we have the same culture and customs and
everything. So it felt good. But I also had this
other part of me that was like so much more progressive
than so many of the people around me. And that's
where I like kind of felt like I didn't. belong
fully right like fully and I and I you know I
do wonder if anyone really belongs fully but
like I I definitely had that like you like these
are my people this is my community but like something
in me is just not right like you just don't quite
fit in right so I moved away from northeast Philly
into the suburbs and then I became much more
ingrained in like the American culture I got
more American friends like there weren't really
many Russians up here back in the late 90s and
again I belong here in terms of some of my values
right but i also miss this like whole eastern
european culture that i love so so very much
and so again i'm like straddling these two worlds
as an immigrant and i could really see ilia feeling
the same way so often i Completely get that.
I do. Can I go back to one point you made earlier
about how Ilya is perceived? Because you said
a lot of people, they meet Ilya and they see
this like stereotypical Russian the way you characterize
him, right? Right. But I don't know if it's the
acting or the way it's directed, but as a viewer,
that's not how I perceived Ilya at all. But I
clearly felt like in the show world, what you
were saying. was absolutely the lens with which
people saw him. That stereotype, at least initially,
right? As a viewer, though, it felt like you
were seeing from the beginning this complex character
who's just sort of navigating what you're describing,
being of two worlds, being this fish out of water
in a country he came to without any family or
friends, right? Right, absolutely. And with a
language barrier on top of that. On top of that,
on top of that. And I don't know if it was something
from our immigrant background that immediately
connected us with him. But yeah, I just thought
what you said was so interesting because I can
see how that was shown in the show. But as the
viewer, it was clear that it was going to be
a lot more nuanced. I've definitely heard a lot
of criticism about him being, quote unquote,
you know, stereotypical cold Russian man who
doesn't open himself up, you know, just has all
these like walls. Like, when I look at him, all
I see is just, like, this sadness in his eyes.
And I think, like, if you look at episode one
during the draft, like, the kid has been drafted
as, like, number one pick, right? In the world.
In the world. And all his dad can say is he's
lazy. Like, he's lazy. What? Yeah, yeah. And
he says it to the owner, right? You could actually
hear the owner kind of like pause before he responds.
And then you can kind of see Ilya's like, he
has this sort of smile plastered on. But even
that like sort of fake smile, that falls. I remember
that scene. Yeah, well, he's masking, right?
We all do really great at masking. But the way
that scene is shot is so great because we're
always seeing just Ilya's face there. His dad
is off to the side. We only see the back of like
the owner, right? And so all you see is Ilya's
face and emotions. You're right. He has like
this fake smile and he's like completely disassociating
from this moment. Again. world famous athlete
he's he's the best he's successful he has everything
and yet he's constantly doing this outsider math
like when is he allowed to be himself clearly
not in front of his dad right not in front of
this owner so he has everything but he's doing
this math and depending on who's around he needs
to act a certain way whether it's his American
friends or teammates or so yeah absolutely code
switching right like how do I navigate this world
where I live when the pressure is so high and
like acceptance is so low okay I Love what you
said. I feel like it should be a quote or something.
Maybe like embroider it or something. I don't
know how to embroider. If I did, I would. But
pressure is high. Acceptance is low. It's like
he can never fully take a deep breath in or out,
right? He's calculating the risk of how much
to reveal about himself, how replaceable he is.
But you know, despite all of that, he's just
so fearless, right? He could have had this easy
marriage. with Svetlana, as he mentioned in episode
six, to get a pathway to, you know, residency
and citizenship. But then Shane says, don't marry
Svetlana. And he agrees. He agrees to that without
any sort of guarantee. I mean, they had what?
They're like. two minutes into their established
relationship at that point. And he agrees, even
though his residency status is so tenuous, it's
so risky. He says, I cannot be anything close
to gay because Russia. Because Russia. Because
Russia. I felt that in my bones, girl. Like I
felt that in my bones. But despite all of that,
he still wants to. come to the cottage eventually.
He wants to hold Shane's hand. He wants to show
love for his boyfriend. And it's just beautiful
and heartbreaking and poignant because you think,
my God, this person, they just want to be themselves.
You know, the show takes this unique experience.
In this case, we're talking about the immigrant
experience and it just manages to relate. to
the audience in such a universal way. Yeah, absolutely.
The realness of it, it really hits home for me.
And I actually read a piece in Vanity Fair by
a Russian journalist, Michael Zagar. I hope I'm
saying that right. He said that Ilya feels true
to life for many queer Russians living under
oppression. And he said he knows people like
Ilya and even sees himself in Ilya. He also mentioned
that watching the show in today's Russia is like
a mix of rebellion and hope. Moscow Times mentioned
that the show's popular because of this like
cultural familiarity. A Russian protagonist,
abusive family dynamics, this forbidden thing
that he has going on. Ilya's closeted struggle
resonates with so many Russians because it mirrors
their lived experience. Russians are using all
sorts of VPNs, pirating software to watch the
show because it's not allowed in the country,
obviously. I did. I did see that. Yeah. And it's
like one of the highest rated shows on their
own version of Rotten Tomatoes. Listen, I'm not
saying a TV show is going to change how Russia
approaches LGBTQ plus folks. But I do hope that
at the very least, it's giving Russian people
the hope that they need. Right. Even if it's
fleeting. I like to believe that, you know, people
who are seeing it are finding it healing. Maybe
a TV show has the ability to change our lives.
I mean, we're doing this podcast, right? It's
it's. changed by hope. They're watching the show,
the show where they're not allowed to be what
the show is portraying. The portrayal of Ilya
in this nuanced way, I hope it makes someone
see themselves in that way, in a place where
they really need it. There's also this thing
with Shane. This cute little Canadian boy has
no idea what Ilya is working with. Shane is growing
up in Canada. Very supportive, loving parents,
a ton of friends, ton of opportunity. Whereas
Ilya is growing up in Moscow. Pressure's insane.
We know his mom passed away. His dad is emotionally
abusive, never good enough. His brother is an
asshole. And so he tries to keep all that hidden.
And on top of that, he's hiding this huge secret,
being in love with Shane and the fact that he's
bi. Actually, in episode one, at the very end,
when they're on the rooftop and Shane's a little
drunk, he's upset. with Ilya because he's like,
why can't you be down there and be supportive
for my win? In that moment, Ilya tells him, I
go back to Russia in a couple of days. And Shane
is like, oh, that must be nice. And the look
that Ilya has, I think it clicks for him that
Shane is just too immature to understand exactly
what Ilya has to deal with. And Ilya just stares
into space. You could see his, like, jaw clenches.
I mean, dude, Connor's story's acting is insane,
but whatever. Like, you could feel every single
emotion without having said a single word. He's
very clearly thinking, like, dude, this asshole
has no idea what I have to deal with. To say,
like, must be nice that you're going back to
Russia Shane seems really oblivious in that moment
really he has like no idea what it's like for
Ilya and the fact that this kid like hates his
life in so many ways and he's forced to go back.
There's no other reality where he does not go
back to Russia. Right, he doesn't have a choice
because he loves Russia, but Russia doesn't love
him back, you know? Right. Yeah, that's an interesting
sentiment, right? You can love any country you
are from, even if it's super problematic, but
still feel completely out of place. And that
goes back to what we said about never quite belonging
and like being between these two worlds. Yeah,
yeah. Okay, can I take a moment? This is perfect,
actually, because we've been talking about Ilya
this whole time, and I just want to take a second.
or more than a second probably, to talk about
Shane here, because I just want to talk about
the contrast between Shane and Ilya in this particular
lens, from the immigrant lens. I'll preface by
saying Shane is mixed race. His mom is Japanese
-Canadian. So there's still an immigrant element
to his family story. Of course, of course. So
Shane has this Asian heritage, but he's also
generationally Canadian, right? And in our last
episode about masculinity, We talked a lot about
how we both felt their relationship was so equal,
external to their personal and private relationship.
But in this particular layer, in the immigrant
layer, it's not the case. Absolutely not the
case, right? Shane moves through this. his Canadian
world with total ease. Again, in this specific
facet, right? But he has other things that, you
know, make him uneasy, like being gay in professional
hockey. I'm not saying he has nothing, but in
this particular way, he has all the ease. But
he's so unaware of how his fluency and the culture
and the language and his citizenship and the
kind of institutional protection he actually
gets from the hockey world. From being on a Canadian
team as a Canadian and the golden boy on top
of everything else of hockey, right? He has all
of the advantage and yeah, he earned it through
his skill. Partly it's because he's at home.
He's in his home. I think it's a significant
way where this power dynamic is really slanted
towards Shane. So you remember that scene where
Ilya is watching Shane do his interview in French?
He says, how does it feel to be perfect? But
you do a bunch better than me, right? Mr. Perfect.
And he's saying that because Shane's speaking
French. And I'm like, hello, Ilya. You're bilingual
too. I mean, he doesn't recognize the value.
Of that. And he's bilingual. Shane's bilingualness,
I guess, makes him Mr. Perfect. But Ilya's isn't
valued in the same way because it's not the preferred
language in the Western lens. And Ilya swallows
that messaging whole. He doesn't recognize that.
You're so right. It's not the preferred language,
even though you are bilingual and you also had
to learn English. You would think that's impressive
to people that he also knows two languages, but
it's not. What I love about the show is how Connor's
story and Jacob Tierney just take this language
element so seriously and so respectfully. I mean,
they hired a Russian dialect coach, right? So
clearly Connor took it very seriously. Yeah,
it was impressive. Because it's not just like
his accent is hot. They're talking about language
and how it informs power, specifically what it
means to be an immigrant. So we know that Ilya
is not fluent in English. Yeah, well, Ilya may
be reading The New Yorker by the end of episode
six. I read The New Yorker now. See, I'm objectifying
your hot Russian accent. But anyway, I digress.
What else is new? What else is new? I know, I'm
such a distraction. So go on, go on. You're saying
he's not fluent. Right. So if you think about
it, language is power, right? So when you are
fluent in a language that someone else is not,
you have the power, you have the upper hand.
You also get to be complex in that language.
You get nuance, right? So you get to be smart.
out loud. In your second language, you can feel
reduced to the simple version of yourself, right?
If you remember in episode one at that press
conference where their journalist asks both Shane
and Ilya that long, nuanced question, and you
could just like tell Ilya's like, what are you
talking about? Shane in that moment realizes
for the first time how hard this must be for
Ilya. Ilya in that moment doing that internal
math, listen to the words, translate the words,
understand the words, respond. and most importantly,
don't look stupid. Don't confirm any stereotypes
in a public setting. And Shane is like, I'm going
to help him out. He taps a little foot. He's
like, I got you. He does. I love that. It was
such a brilliant scene. I think it just goes
to show, even though we're kind of saying Shane
isn't getting it, but he's so inherently empathetic
and sweet, you know, Shane. He gets part of it.
He gets part of it. He gets the language barrier
part. And hey, points for Shane for that. So
as soon as Shane's done speaking, Ilya, he's
trying to be funny to everyone around. And so
he basically is like, you know, what he said.
And everyone laughs and it's all funny for everyone.
But I know why he did that. It makes perfect
sense. That's what immigrants do, right? They'll
use their charm. They'll deflect. They'll like
use body language to regain some semblance, some
control of the situation because it doesn't.
feel good to not understand what someone is saying
to you especially in public when you're this
elite athlete too right side note i saw this
video of a woman she was having a conversation
with her friend And her friend made fun of a
word she said in a thick accent, right? Basically,
like you sound really funny when you say it that
way. And the woman who said it, the non -native
speaker, she says, in my language, in my native
language, I am so smart. Everyone understands
me. I have multiple degrees. I can speak in beautiful
prose. I could write like everyone I know thinks
I'm so intelligent. But when I speak English.
Everyone thinks I'm an idiot. And that's the
thing that people don't understand about accents.
Like accents do not mean less intelligent. They
don't mean like I don't know enough. Accents
mean I know more than one world. And I felt when
she said that, I felt it just like I felt it
when like Ilya was very clearly uncomfortable,
didn't know how to handle that question. And
when Shane rescued him, this might be the time
I might start crying. I don't know. I'll right
there with you because. You know, when I said
I lost my accent in two months, and some of it
is because, yeah, I was a kid when I came here,
but obviously I got the message. You must lose
your accent. Lose this accent. Otherwise, you're
just, you're dumb, actually. You're less intelligent,
like you said. Yeah, you know, listen, I often
think about my mom, you know, and, you know,
we've been in this country for over 30 years,
right? My mom speaks English really well, but
obviously she carries an accent. And I know that
to her, it's her deepest shame, which is like
so freaking hard, right? Listen, she's the smartest
person I know. She holds multiple degrees. She's
a computer programmer. She's a history buff.
But when she speaks in English, she feels like...
people think she's dumb. And that just gives
her a huge complex. Yeah, because of the accent,
because it might take her an extra 30 seconds
to get a sentence out. Right. And so I feel it
so deeply in my soul. And so when I watch Ilya
struggle and when he says things like English
is too hard right now, I'm like, let me hug you.
Let me make you feel better. And it explains
why he sometimes feels like a little like extra
because when you can't control language perfectly,
you control your tone, you control your charisma,
right? You control the room. Yeah, you're using
snark, you know, to cover up a vulnerability,
right? We all do that. Right, exactly. I remember
when I first came to the U .S. and I went to
school in India. in an English medium school,
which basically means that everything was taught
in English and not Tamil, which is the other
language I speak. I just finished third grade
in India when I came to the U .S. And when we
enrolled in school for me, they wanted to hold
me back because I was a little younger. And they
also wanted me to be in ESL, you know, English
as a second language. And I remember at eight
years old, I just felt so much shame about that.
And you're going to be shocked, Diana, because
I'm very competitive. Very competitive. Are you?
Oh, my God. I would never say that about you,
like ever. Your entire wall of degrees. So I
was saying I'm very competitive, right, when
it comes to grades and stuff, being on top of
the class. And I just remember feeling so, so
upset as this eight -year -old, like insulted
to my core. And there's nothing wrong with learning
English as a second language, right? Like you
did at all. You know, I just sort of, I think,
bristled at the assumption that I had to be held
back. I mean, and the principal, to her credit,
she wasn't being mean or rude. She thought like
genuinely that this would help. And I just remember
my mom having this conversation talking about
our moms. Oh, my gosh. Moms, immigrant stories,
Ilya, Shane. I mean, we can have an entire mom
episode. Like being a sobbing, sobbing mess.
But OK, so I remember my mom having this conversation
with the principal and how I just felt. was sort
of the powerlessness of our position there as
new immigrants. Because, you know, as a child,
you think of your parents as sort of infallible,
right? They can fix it. They'll fix it. They'll
fix everything. And I think at that moment, I
saw firsthand as this child, how being this new
immigrant in this position, how fragile your
parents are. Kind of as they try to assimilate
into this new world, it's like you can see all
of those vulnerabilities laid bare. I think that
developed, at least for me, I mean, I hope it
developed for me a sense of empathy. Definitely
made me more mature before my age. But God, it's...
It's so hard to watch your parents struggle,
like you said, after 30 years for you and your
mom about how she speaks and that self -consciousness.
And me as an eight -year -old at that moment,
seeing my mom figure out how to explain to the
principal, she didn't need to, you know, hold
me back. And in India, this would have never
stood. You know, she would never take that. She
also is very competitive about my academics.
Right. But she was just so frozen in that moment.
So anyway, I didn't get help back. I went back
to the principal and I like brought her all these
little certificates and awards and like prizes
that I got up to third grade. And I like made
my case to her. I like presented this. It was
a PowerPoint. Years old. Yeah. Before you asserted
your power. I did. It's funny that you talk about
being held or almost held back because I did
get held back. I was in sixth grade back in the
Soviet Union. But when we came here, because
the school that I was going to did not have ESL
services, they figured out the best way to bridge
the gap is to just put me a grade lower. And
they did that to both me and my brother, which
was like not great. Not a good feeling. I had
really good grades just because I didn't have
the language. I wasn't like smart enough to be
in the grade that I'm supposed to be in. Felt
like shit. You know, I get you. Yeah, exactly.
Except I wasn't able to plead my case. I was
just like, OK, I guess this is what I do. You
know, you actually had a language barrier. OK,
it's so interesting that. Both of these moments
were just core memories for us. Because also
you're a kid, so like everything is so much more
intense. No one likes to not fit in when they're
a kid. And especially when you're an immigrant.
You said something about code switching earlier
in this episode when we were talking about like
accents, which again, relevant here. And I think
Ilya code switches a lot around language too.
Not just like actually speaking part, but the
way like he uses his charm and sarcasm with his
teammates. So like you can't be fluent enough
to be authentic. So when you wear... this armor
when you're funny and sarcastic and playful.
And Ilya does this really, really well. He uses
his charm for interviews, banter there, right?
But when it comes to his emotions, his true,
deep, deep emotions, his grief, his love, his
anger with his family, he switches to Russian,
which makes sense, right? Because he feels in
Russian. That's like the most common thing for
him, right? He feels in Russian. And we can see
that in episode five, when he fights with his
brother after his death. dad dies in the famous,
gorgeous tunnel scene. My God, the monologue.
Right, right, right. Right. But even before,
right, like the monologue, but even before the
monologue, right? Like when he's on the phone
with Shane at the beginning, Shane asked him
how he is. And you could see Ilya already struggling
with words. I mean, yes, he's upset. Obviously,
that thing just happened with his brother. They
had a fight. His dad died. When Shane asks him,
he's struggling. He goes, not good, probably
bad. Like, that's not like the way you would
typically answer if you were fluent, you know,
right? It was not typical for even Ilya. It was
so broken. I felt like he was having a really
hard time. Yeah, you know, he is. He's trying
to figure out exactly what to say. He feels it
in Russian. So it's like hard for him to do that
translation, to do that, you know, mental load
to translate right now. It's such a common thing
when you have all these feelings in your native
tongue, but you just can't get them out. Even
now, when I want to say something that I know
in Russian, but I want to like translate it into
English, you'll hear me say a lot like it just
doesn't translate. Some feelings don't quite
translate. I could translate it literally, but
it doesn't quite work in English. Right. And
so I love that moment in the tunnel because,
again, like Shane finally understands that Ilya
needs something else from him. And he gives him
the space to speak in Russian because Ilya literally
says English is too hard right now. Shane tells
him to speak in Russian. He won't understand
it, but maybe it will help. OK. As you say that,
I am completely struck by that. feel like I just
thought of it right now, like a lightning bolt.
Because I said before that this is the one space
where it feels like the power dynamic between
Shane and Ilya is really unequal. And then Shane
is actually flipping the script here. He's giving
up some of that power. He's actually kind of
putting himself in a position. where he's the
one who doesn't understand the content of the
words, but he understands what it means. He doesn't
know exactly what he's saying, but he understands
what it means because he closes his eyes. I mean,
he's clearly, clearly moved by it. It's almost
as if the emotion is enough to understand. Sorry,
totally interrupted, but I just thought of it.
As you said it. No, you know what? And it's totally
cool. I love that. Perhaps this is how we get
our light bulbs. You know, like no matter how
many times you and I discuss it, I'm always like,
oh yeah, like that's such a great point. I didn't
even think of that. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like Shane
gives up his power, right? Shane offers Ilya
a safe space where the immigrant is finally not
forced to compress himself for someone else's
comfort, right? And we do that often because
even though we're immigrants and we have less
power in... whatever given situation especially
when we're new immigrants we're still trying
to make the other person comfortable with our
lack of language just to make sure they can understand
us it's like such a messed up dichotomy i'm uncomfortable
because i don't speak the language but i don't
want you to be uncomfortable and think of me
in some other like way Yeah, it's a total, total
mindfuck. It's a total mindfuck. It really is.
And finally, Shane gives him this opportunity
for emotional truth. Ilya lays it all out, unloads
in one of the most gorgeous scenes ever, the
Russian monologue. I cannot tell you. I cannot
tell you how many times I have listened to that
monologue. At least 20 times. Probably more.
I believe it. Probably more. I have it saved
on my phone. I have fallen asleep to it. This
is maybe too much. I'm sharing too much. Diana,
calm down. Is there such a thing in this podcast?
No. But listen, here's a flex. I don't need the
subtitles. I do not need the subtitles. I can
listen to it. I can hear it with my whole chest
because I don't need the subtitles. And because
I could like listen to it multiple times, I just
like close my eyes and listen to it. Just kind
of let the words wash over you. Like Shane, like
Shane, like Shane. But I actually understand
it. And it's so gorgeous. The way he speaks in
Russian, the way he expresses his emotions, his
grief, his pain, his love for Shane. Shane. He's
never able to do that in English. Not at first.
Right. Even when he does tell Shane he loves
him in English later, he still hasn't been able
to have a conversation with Shane about all the
hurts. And so it's much easier for him to be
emotional in the language in his mother tongue.
Right. Right. Right. Right. I mean, it's called
mother tongue for a reason. Right. It's supposed
to be this place of comfort and ease. But alternatively,
he's. in Moscow right then. And he's not getting
a lot of ease or comfort. He's right because
he's because he's from Moscow, but he's no longer
of Moscow anymore. You know what I mean? He loves
Russia, but does Russia love him back? That Russian
monologue absolutely, absolutely destroyed me,
too, even though destroyed, destroyed. I did
not have the benefit of understanding what was
directly said. And I wish I wish I could. But
even before that in episode five, do you remember
that scene with Svetlana where they're talking
about the all -star game? And she's like, I would
love to see you on a line with Shane. And she
also is like, all right, you know he's talented
and hot, okay? And the entire conversation is
in Russian. And the entire conversation is in
Russian. And she says something like, I'd love
to see you on a line with him. And Ilya's like,
well, we play the same position. How could that
even happen? And she's like, well, you could
play another position. And he's like, you would
have you would have him center me. What does
he say? Mia? Minya? Minya? Minya? Right. Right.
And he kind of jumps on top of her. Looks like
like two kids like tussling, you know, it's so
playful. I don't think we'd ever seen him like
that, really. Right. Because he's comfortable
in his native tongue. Right. Right. And so. With
the monologue, even though I didn't understand
it, I get so teary. I still do. Because like
you said, he's feeling in Russian and you can
see it. You could feel his entire emotional range
change. And all of a sudden, he's like tapping
into this vault of depth and feeling. There's
something to be said about the ability to communicate
authentically in the language you were raised
in, in your mother tongue. His face changes.
The way he speaks changes. The cadence changes.
You know, I've always thought that maybe some
of the emotional distance I felt growing up in
my parents, especially my mom, was just kind
of a combination of growing up differently, growing
up in the U .S. versus in India, you know, generational
gap, whatever. I was definitely much more comfortable
being expressive in English, even though, again,
like I said, I know my mother tongue, native
language Tamil pretty well. But with this adult
lens, finally growing up and just watching my
mom interact these days with her friends and
just seeing how free and jokey and open and...
And young, you know, young. She seems like talking
in her language. I've just always felt like she
was so reserved. That's the mom I knew. That
hit me really hard in the monologue. Okay, there's
a gap in how we were raised and our cultural
milieu, etc. But my God, I just think, just like
with Ilya, not knowing how to communicate. The
breadth of your feeling, it just must make you
feel so constricted, like so small. Yeah. Yeah,
absolutely. I could have told you the same story
about my mom. I could definitely see that she's
so open and sweet and kind and funny when she's
speaking Russian. And she's so much more reserved
when she's speaking English. Just one last thing
about language, and I'll stop, I promise, because
I feel like we've been talking about this so
long. So in episode six, there's a part that's
supposed to be funny to the audience. It's framed
as comedy, right? When they come back to the
parents' house, Jane says, I don't want you to
find out this way. And Ilya puts his hand on
Shane's shoulder and he goes, we're lovers. And
we're supposed to laugh, right? Yeah, I have
the same reaction as Shane. Like, don't do that.
Right, because he's like, Shane is immediately
like, no, Ilya, no, stop. And we're meant to
laugh because it's funny on the surface, right?
In Russian, the word is actually so soft and
so intimate and like vulnerable and affectionate.
There's no terms for boyfriend and girlfriend.
So there's no direct equivalent. So he's trying
to say something like he's my boy. boyfriend,
like my beloved. And the closest translation
he has is lovers. But in English, lovers has
this icky connotation, sexual, cringy, right?
Especially in front of your parents. And he's
like, Ilya, my parents are right here. Like,
please stop telling him we're fucking, right?
That like definitely gives a different lens to
that conversation. Yeah. And so every time Shane
says, can we please stop saying lovers when his
dad even says it, you know? Ilya, if you look
at his face, he's genuinely confused. And later
he finally finds the word boyfriend. his mind.
He was probably looking for it forever. You know,
and Shayna's like, my boyfriend? And he goes,
really? A boyfriend? And Ilya's like, yeah, I
think so, probably. I thought when Ilya first
says it, I honestly thought Ilya was kind of
being like a little cheeky. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Kind of snarky. He's kind of a snarky guy.
Right, right. That Raider shirt, to me. Well,
he does do a little bit of rage, basically. Right,
right. No, but he's literally no word. No word
for boyfriend, girlfriend. Nothing like that.
So that's that's why you think he was puzzled
because there was no translation. Right. Lover
is the closest thing he has. So bring that up
because I think that is supposed to be funny.
But like to me, I'm like, yes, it's funny. But
like, I also understand why he's using the word.
OK, we've talked a lot in this episode about
Ilya, some about Shane, a lot about ourselves.
But I feel like a discussion about heated rivalry
and the immigrant experience would be incomplete
without talking about Eunice. So Eunice, first
-gen Canadian, right? Remind me again. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. She was born there. Yeah. I think
she's the version of the immigrant story that
gets the social approval. You know what I mean?
She's educated. She's professional. She's fluent.
In English, she's assimilated at least externally,
right? The word I think for that is the model
minority. And I also find it interesting because
she's at this intersection of both gender and
immigration because she's both a good immigrant
and a good woman, right? Like that's her role.
I think for me, that stereotype is very resonating
because I see... Actually, a lot of myself and
Yuna. It's like looking in a mirror for me, you
know? Do everything right. Be perfect. So in
episode one, do you remember right after Shane
films that commercial with Ilya? You know, the
commercial I'm talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Right after the commercials filmed, it cuts away
to Shane and Yuna. And then they're talking about
his endorsement. And Yuna says, remember what
else this means. For me, I like I really remember
that line. And Shane goes, I remember the way
he said it. You know. He's heard this conversation.
He's had this conversation before with his mom.
And Yuna says a whole lot of kids will be looking
up to you. Kids who don't usually see themselves
here, meaning here being professional hockey.
Right. I just. That scene, often in my mind,
juxtaposed with that coming out scene at David
and Yuna's cottage. Shane has this moment with
his mom alone and he apologizes to her for being
gay. He says, I tried not to be. And you can
see Yuna is completely gutted by that, right?
She says, oh, look at me, look at me. And she's
like searching for his eyes and says, you have
nothing to apologize for. I'm sorry I made you
feel like that. you couldn't tell me. I really
don't have words for that scene. I mean, you
have the monologue, but from an emotional perspective,
this is the scene I think I watch over and over.
Because I think she realizes, at least this is
my interpretation of what happened, that despite
all of the love and support she poured into this
boy, her baby, something in their relationship
kept him from really being honest with her or
himself, honestly. She's maybe thinking about
all the sort of implied messages he's been getting
even from her. And that's why my mind connects
that conversation with the, you know, remember
who else is watching, who else is looking at
you from the beginning. Maybe she's thinking,
you know, hey, did I do the right thing even
though I did everything out of love? And as a
parent, as a mom, You know, maybe trying to create
something that resembles the love and the support
Yuna gives. Right. But also a hard work attitude
that she expects. Yeah. And that just hits so
hard for me. I mean, it just makes you evaluate
all of. your parenting messaging that you're
doing with your kids? What kind of model minority
expectations am I putting on them? What am I
carrying forward, even unconsciously? And what
am I passing on, you know? And that just hits
so hard to me. And I love, love that in that
scene, she seems to recognize that by saying,
I'm sorry. I made you feel like you couldn't
tell me. She takes that. And so that's see, I'm
getting actually getting goosebumps. It's just
such a you're going to cry. I cried a single
time and I thought I would. But now I got I am
seeing tears in her eyes. This is happening,
y 'all. Oh, Anusha. I know. You know what? Like
as children of immigrants, you know, immigrants
ourselves, but also obviously we were young.
So we really are like children of immigrants
as well. You know, like there is this idea that
like you do not disappoint your parents. They
have made all of these sacrifices. Most people
don't even understand unless you're an immigrant
yourself. Just how many sacrifices immigrant
parents make for their children. So when the
children are growing up, there is. Added pressure
of you cannot disappoint your parents because
they have made the ultimate sacrifice. And whether
we realize it or not, we probably are putting
some of that immigrant parent pressure on our
kids. It's a good point, Anisha. I like that
you brought that up. I think we definitely, you
know, the idea of this model minority here definitely
plays a part. Yeah, 100 percent. We're approaching
the end of our show. So you know what that means,
Diana. It's our moment of sunshine. I hope you're
ready with yours. I'm so excited. Let's go. So
my moment of sunshine is actually something that
happened a few weeks ago. So am I allowed? I'm
allowed. I'm going to change the rules a little
bit. We're lawless people here. So this actually
happened as we were editing episode one. In the
middle of editing episode one, I went to a protest
in our little town. that is actually very relevant
to the title of this episode. I came home and
my babies were just sort of like milling around
me, setting up their own podcast. My husband
was helping me edit episode one and it just made
me so happy. And I remember sharing that in our
text with some other friends and... One of our
friends said, even in turbulent times, there
is music and art and love. And I mean, I'm not
elevating this podcast to art, but it's certainly
done with a lot of love. It's a labor of love
in so many ways. So, yeah, I felt all of that
at that moment. So that was my sunshine. How
about you? My moment of sunshine is anticipatory.
Oh, so you're changing the rules, too. All right.
Well, like we said, we have no rules. No rules.
And so this Saturday, I am going to a heated
rivalry rave? What? A dance party? I don't know.
I should be sleeping at 9 p .m.? because I'm
a grown woman. Yeah, I'm a grown woman with kids
and family and, you know, all this stuff. But
it doesn't matter because I am going to the Heated
Rivalry dance party with one of my girlfriends
and I'm spending the night in the city and I'm
just going to have the best time. I just know
it. I'm so excited. It's going to be fun. It's
going to be like all the things you said, both
versions playing over and over and you get to
have like a moment. So that sounds like the dream.
I love it. Yeah, I love it. Next week on Everyone
Deserves Sunshine, we're talking about neurodivergence.
Okay. We're just talking about all the big topics
head on, I guess. And perhaps a little more Shane
-centric that episode will be. Right. I don't
know why I said it like Yoda, but. Because this
is the immigrant episode and our English has
left the building. Anyway, I can't wait to hash
it all out with you, Diana, and with our listeners.
Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.
And if you want to say hi to the girls in the
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and threads at everyone deserves sunshine. You
could email us at everyone deserves sunshine
at gmail .com. New episodes drop on Mondays.
See you then.