WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.819 Hello and welcome to The Purpose Brief. I'm James 00:00:02.819 --> 00:00:05.280 Johnston and today we're asking a deceptively 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.560 simple question. What on earth is ESG? Environmental, 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:12.740 social and governance has become part of the 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:14.660 language of business and investment and public 00:00:14.660 --> 00:00:18.320 policy, but it is also surrounded by jargon, 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:22.440 misinformation and political pushback. People 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:24.199 don't like change is something that I hear quite 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:27.640 a lot and I think it's codswallop. Because change 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:29.719 is happening all around us. What people don't 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:31.600 like change being done to them. People feel like 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.640 they haven't got a say in something or it's just 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.359 been thrust upon them and they don't agree with 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:39.039 the outcome. It is about giving people the bigger 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:42.820 picture, not patronising folk. Essentially, you're 00:00:42.820 --> 00:00:45.539 constantly trying to sell an idea. And that idea 00:00:45.539 --> 00:00:47.679 needs to be flushed out. You need to be passionate 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:50.219 about it because I think passion creates passion. 00:00:50.380 --> 00:00:52.140 If I'm going to be talking to you about something 00:00:52.140 --> 00:00:55.420 and I'm like, OK, yeah, green agenda is great. 00:00:55.579 --> 00:00:57.780 Like, you're not going to be bought in. I swing 00:00:57.780 --> 00:01:00.100 from one side to another between being really 00:01:00.100 --> 00:01:02.880 hopeful that things are going well and that we 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:06.040 have enough passionate, knowledgeable people 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:09.200 to be able to make a change. And then... It's 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:11.659 usually after I've watched the news. Slight sense 00:01:11.659 --> 00:01:15.000 of despair. I'm hearing a lot around hope at 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:17.480 the moment. And I'm hearing it all over the place. 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:18.739 And I don't know whether that's my reticular 00:01:18.739 --> 00:01:20.840 activated system. Like, I've heard hope. And 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:23.159 now it's like, I'm always hearing hope. Yeah, 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:25.760 but I love it. I love it. And I think we should 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.180 embrace it. If you don't have hope, how can you 00:01:28.180 --> 00:01:30.439 do anything? It's not just wishful thinking. 00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:36.019 It's taking that into action. There have been 00:01:36.019 --> 00:01:38.819 decades of debate. and endless flip -flopping 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:41.620 around the impacts that humans are having on 00:01:41.620 --> 00:01:45.019 our environment. But the climate crisis is here 00:01:45.019 --> 00:01:48.120 right now in front of us. We live in a country 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:50.799 which has been built for a climate that no longer 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:54.260 exists. That is the stark conclusion of a recent 00:01:54.260 --> 00:01:57.379 climate change committee which says we must prepare 00:01:57.379 --> 00:02:00.000 for the extreme weather associated with at least 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.060 two degrees of global warming by 2050. We have 00:02:04.060 --> 00:02:07.480 broached the planetary boundaries. We're already 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.120 seeing what that could mean, more intense heat, 00:02:10.180 --> 00:02:13.039 drought, flooding, wildfires and growing pressure 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:16.259 on our water, food, infrastructure and public 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:18.900 services. And everybody is starting to notice 00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:22.020 it. This isn't simply an environmental issue. 00:02:22.180 --> 00:02:25.819 It's about people, places, leadership and whether 00:02:25.819 --> 00:02:28.659 organisations are prepared for the risks ahead. 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:33.280 So is ESG still useful? And what does responsible 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.689 business actually look like in practice? To help 00:02:36.689 --> 00:02:39.789 make sense of this, I'm joined by Justine MacArthur, 00:02:39.969 --> 00:02:43.169 an independent consultant who helps SMEs and 00:02:43.169 --> 00:02:45.310 not -for -profit organisations develop their 00:02:45.310 --> 00:02:49.550 people, culture and HR, and Dane Wadsworth from 00:02:49.550 --> 00:02:52.620 Jay -Z Flowers. The three of us met... earlier 00:02:52.620 --> 00:02:54.879 this year as part of a brilliant group of humans 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:57.400 brought together through a programme at Hull 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.219 University Business School. So together we explored 00:03:00.219 --> 00:03:02.539 how responsible businesses of all different sorts 00:03:02.539 --> 00:03:06.300 can improve productivity, resilience and sustainability. 00:03:06.939 --> 00:03:10.699 At its heart is a simple idea, doing good shouldn't 00:03:10.699 --> 00:03:13.180 be an optional extra or a charitable add -on, 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.000 it should be part of the business model. And 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:18.259 today we'll strip away the jargon, share some 00:03:18.259 --> 00:03:21.939 lived examples and explore how ESG can help organisations 00:03:21.939 --> 00:03:25.759 understand their impact, earn the trust of their 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.319 consumers, their customers and contribute to 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:33.039 prosperous places and thriving communities. Justine 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:36.090 and Dane. Welcome. Thank you. Hello there. Tell 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:38.789 me about your areas of work. What does ESG mean 00:03:38.789 --> 00:03:42.610 to you? So I'm going to start with purpose. When 00:03:42.610 --> 00:03:46.189 I decided to work for myself, I was quite clear 00:03:46.189 --> 00:03:49.469 in my mission, which it doesn't translate very 00:03:49.469 --> 00:03:52.389 easily, outwardly, I'll be honest, but is I want 00:03:52.389 --> 00:03:54.409 to help people to help people to help improve 00:03:54.409 --> 00:03:58.949 the world. So if I can help managers. be better 00:03:58.949 --> 00:04:01.750 managers, be better leaders, them as individuals 00:04:01.750 --> 00:04:04.509 and their teams can then go out and do great 00:04:04.509 --> 00:04:07.240 things that I can't do. I don't have the skills 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:10.879 and capacity to do, but I can help enable them 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:14.280 to be able to improve the world. So if it's environmental, 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:17.500 you know, if they're conservation or they're 00:04:17.500 --> 00:04:20.680 working in sustainability, or if it's social, 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:22.800 so, you know, like you're looking after, say, 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:25.980 people who are marginalised, international social 00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:29.339 issues, social justice issues, and then governance, 00:04:29.459 --> 00:04:32.079 you know, it's not the sexy part of it, but it 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.019 is the important part of it. that is what makes 00:04:36.019 --> 00:04:38.860 the business tick tell us about jc flowers your 00:04:38.860 --> 00:04:41.939 work there yeah so i've been at jc flowers for 00:04:41.939 --> 00:04:45.060 coming up to a year now and them as an organization 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:49.060 jc flowers are they wanted to become front runners 00:04:49.060 --> 00:04:51.899 in sustainability they've been around since i 00:04:51.899 --> 00:04:55.259 believe sort of early 90s they're now part of 00:04:55.259 --> 00:04:58.860 the dutch flower group that has i think 25 percent 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:02.079 global market share on flowers So only a small 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.759 operation. But yeah, Jay -Z Flowers themselves 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:10.220 tend to show a lot of stewardship within the 00:05:10.220 --> 00:05:14.160 DFG itself, not just from a human rights perspective, 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.839 but also from a sustainability perspective for 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.339 carbon, so the environmental side. And it's all 00:05:21.339 --> 00:05:24.259 about what we're trying to do at Jay -Z Flowers 00:05:24.259 --> 00:05:27.379 is... almost standardise the approach to make 00:05:27.379 --> 00:05:30.139 sure that we can compare apples to apples when 00:05:30.139 --> 00:05:32.139 it comes to other big players, sort of, you know, 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.759 your apples, your Microsofts, etc. And linking 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:40.019 back to purpose, I suppose, when I applied for 00:05:40.019 --> 00:05:43.360 university, I naively put whatever I want to 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:46.560 do, I want to have an impact in terms of the 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:49.620 world. And this is long before I had any visibility 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:53.220 of sustainability, climate change, etc. And through 00:05:53.220 --> 00:05:58.439 a series of sales roles and then falling into 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:02.899 sustainability i can now see that coming to fruition 00:06:02.899 --> 00:06:06.379 in terms of you know reducing carbon improving 00:06:06.379 --> 00:06:10.600 efficiencies and sort of trying to ensure that 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:12.379 when we're communicating about sustainability 00:06:12.379 --> 00:06:15.600 it's not always a cost it can be an efficiency 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:17.959 improvement and actually generate revenue so 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:22.120 for me the purpose is saving the planet but pragmatically 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:25.019 one step at a time as well as not having it cost 00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:28.319 the earth as well. We went on a bit of a journey 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:32.819 with the course at Hull, a positive one, because 00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:36.060 we were immersed in sort of the theory and the 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:39.060 science and the challenges, but then the practical 00:06:39.060 --> 00:06:41.680 applications. What are your takeaways from... 00:06:42.410 --> 00:06:45.329 From the course and what were your learnings? 00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:47.970 The course itself. I loved that the people who 00:06:47.970 --> 00:06:49.970 were running the course, the tutors that we had, 00:06:50.069 --> 00:06:52.750 we had a mixture of tutors for a start and that 00:06:52.750 --> 00:06:55.129 they all had, you know, relatable experience, 00:06:55.430 --> 00:06:59.009 either directly in industry or supporting industry. 00:06:59.949 --> 00:07:04.009 And that made it really relatable. The organisations 00:07:04.009 --> 00:07:06.269 that I'm supporting at the moment are in the 00:07:06.269 --> 00:07:10.509 smaller end of the spectrum. still again trying 00:07:10.509 --> 00:07:13.850 to make that relatable for them is a challenge 00:07:13.850 --> 00:07:17.350 just because of people can see from from health 00:07:17.350 --> 00:07:19.949 and safety like that social aspect of like looking 00:07:19.949 --> 00:07:21.870 after your people health and safety like we've 00:07:21.870 --> 00:07:27.110 got that in this country we we know that we people 00:07:27.110 --> 00:07:29.790 don't question health and safety so much and 00:07:29.790 --> 00:07:32.290 we're moving like HR and the way that we treat 00:07:32.290 --> 00:07:35.730 people with the benefits employment laws that's 00:07:35.730 --> 00:07:38.050 pretty ingrained as well. And I think it's just, 00:07:38.129 --> 00:07:40.329 it's like that we're on a tipping point. And 00:07:40.329 --> 00:07:43.290 I really felt that. And I think through things 00:07:43.290 --> 00:07:46.209 like the Carbon Literacy Project, so we're all 00:07:46.209 --> 00:07:49.529 carbon literate after that course, that is how 00:07:49.529 --> 00:07:51.569 we're going to sort of start moving that needle, 00:07:51.629 --> 00:07:53.949 I think, for the environmental side of things. 00:07:54.170 --> 00:07:56.829 And it was a real eye -opener, that and the planetary 00:07:56.829 --> 00:07:59.810 boundaries. For me, definitely opened my eyes 00:07:59.810 --> 00:08:02.629 up to more than just the environmental side. 00:08:02.750 --> 00:08:06.199 So my specialism was... more looking at carbon 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.660 and for me I went in thinking okay I just want 00:08:10.660 --> 00:08:13.839 to get a qualification to prove my experience 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:17.339 whereas the course opened my eyes up to more 00:08:17.339 --> 00:08:19.740 of the social and governance aspects and made 00:08:19.740 --> 00:08:23.620 me really appreciate the nuances within the governance 00:08:23.620 --> 00:08:26.600 of how an organisation can be structured and 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:30.759 how that impacts senior management. middle management 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:32.860 and then your you know sort of your operatives 00:08:32.860 --> 00:08:35.840 and that sort of thing so and also the communication 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:40.980 side of how top to bottom and bottom to top communicate 00:08:40.980 --> 00:08:43.740 to each other and then communicate outwardly 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:46.559 to the general public so that when it comes to 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.519 things like recruitment etc why aren't you talking 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:53.860 about your social social benefits because this 00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:56.139 is how great you're doing it's almost like we're 00:08:56.139 --> 00:08:59.669 scared to to say anything because We don't know 00:08:59.669 --> 00:09:03.129 whether it's going to make our competition think, 00:09:03.190 --> 00:09:05.169 oh, we'll do that as well. And then you're kind 00:09:05.169 --> 00:09:08.909 of blinkering yourself to not be able to recruit 00:09:08.909 --> 00:09:11.129 the talent that you want based on the inputs 00:09:11.129 --> 00:09:12.730 that you've had, the investments you've made 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:15.509 with the social aspects that you've implemented. 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:18.490 There's a really interesting thread that runs 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:20.629 through a lot of that, the work and experience 00:09:20.629 --> 00:09:22.850 of those people that we talked to and worked 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:26.799 with around leadership and how. A lot of this 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:30.980 gets handed to doers who are really operationally 00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:34.720 delivering and then the lessons of leaders in 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.279 that space because they need the doers to understand 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:40.440 operationally. I suppose my view has always been 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:44.840 that leaders have a lot on their plate in businesses 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.879 and can probably do more in this space. Is there 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:49.980 any kind of reflections more broadly from you 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:52.700 about different organizations you've worked with 00:09:52.700 --> 00:09:57.320 and why this is? is landing now. So taking the 00:09:57.320 --> 00:10:00.259 first aspect of that about leadership and to 00:10:00.259 --> 00:10:03.179 make the change, I think, you know, it's kind 00:10:03.179 --> 00:10:04.840 of common knowledge that you have to have a tipping 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:07.820 point of what percentage of people in any sort 00:10:07.820 --> 00:10:12.419 of situation can make it something normal. And 00:10:12.419 --> 00:10:15.259 I think that's what we're feeling the uptick 00:10:15.259 --> 00:10:19.639 at the moment of ESG becoming more normalised. 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:23.320 It's coming into conversation and the aspects 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:25.759 of ESG. So people might not be saying ESG, but 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:27.360 they might be talking about the different areas 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.080 of it. We're coming up to that and we haven't 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:32.950 reached that tipping point yet. You know, I'm 00:10:32.950 --> 00:10:35.649 a firm believer in hope and we're all doing things 00:10:35.649 --> 00:10:37.389 to make this happen. Like there are individuals 00:10:37.389 --> 00:10:40.110 like us doing things to make that happen and 00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:42.289 things like having a podcast on this to demystify 00:10:42.289 --> 00:10:45.190 and is only ever going to help that. And the 00:10:45.190 --> 00:10:48.049 leadership within an organisation, the leaders, 00:10:48.129 --> 00:10:50.309 as in the people at the top in the hierarchical 00:10:50.309 --> 00:10:53.870 sense, if they're passionate about making that 00:10:53.870 --> 00:10:57.029 change, then they can use their influence throughout. 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:00.960 But let's not forget, like people at any part 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.240 in an organisation can make change in an organisation, 00:11:04.259 --> 00:11:06.559 you know, through their passion, through being 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:09.220 able to educate people and removing barriers, 00:11:09.500 --> 00:11:11.200 removing these things that people think, oh, 00:11:11.259 --> 00:11:13.919 well, we can't do that because it's a huge challenge 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:16.879 for people. But it is possible and I'm really 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.700 hopeful. and you can give your honest view of 00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:23.000 this from an HR perspective, but people don't 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:27.240 like change. I think that's a bit frail. One 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:32.000 of the challenges really is how do you, and you 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.100 might want to say something like Jay -Z and the 00:11:34.100 --> 00:11:36.039 work there, but how do you take people on a journey 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:40.240 either up the kind of management scale or people 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:41.879 who are operationally delivering on the ground? 00:11:43.169 --> 00:11:45.610 So it's interesting because people don't like 00:11:45.610 --> 00:11:47.370 change is something that I hear quite a lot. 00:11:47.429 --> 00:11:51.169 And I think it's codswallop, to be honest, because 00:11:51.169 --> 00:11:53.129 it's happening all the time. We're always changing. 00:11:53.470 --> 00:11:54.870 It's a good Yorkshire phrase. Good Yorkshire 00:11:54.870 --> 00:11:56.889 phrase. I was thinking, how am I going to say 00:11:56.889 --> 00:12:00.129 that? Yeah, codswallop. Because change is happening 00:12:00.129 --> 00:12:02.389 all around us. People don't like change being 00:12:02.389 --> 00:12:05.299 done to them. It's an agency, isn't it? Nuanced, 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.379 isn't it? It's not change in general. I think 00:12:07.379 --> 00:12:09.740 it is when people feel like they haven't got 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:13.179 a say in something or it's just been thrust upon 00:12:13.179 --> 00:12:15.700 them and they don't agree with the outcome. If 00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:17.559 they like the outcome, if it's like, oh, what 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:18.759 we're going to do is we're now going to have 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:21.360 a swimming pool in the office and you get an 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.700 hour a day to go swimming, we'll pay you, then 00:12:23.700 --> 00:12:26.840 they will love that change. But yes, I think 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.799 people... It is about communication, and Dane 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.559 mentioned that, and you've touched upon it. It 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:36.700 is about giving people the bigger picture, not 00:12:36.700 --> 00:12:40.879 patronising folk like people want to know. In 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:43.120 terms of from a business perspective, when you're 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:47.419 arguing the figures of savings, presumably that's 00:12:47.419 --> 00:12:52.190 half the battle. I sort of managed the way I 00:12:52.190 --> 00:12:55.309 approach the whole communication piece. So I 00:12:55.309 --> 00:12:58.509 think this is where my sales background helps 00:12:58.509 --> 00:13:02.419 me a little bit because. essentially you're constantly 00:13:02.419 --> 00:13:05.299 trying to sell an idea and that idea needs to 00:13:05.299 --> 00:13:07.259 be flushed out. You need to be passionate about 00:13:07.259 --> 00:13:10.820 it because I think passion creates passion. If 00:13:10.820 --> 00:13:12.179 I'm going to be talking to you about something 00:13:12.179 --> 00:13:15.460 and I'm like, okay, yeah, green agenda is great. 00:13:15.659 --> 00:13:17.480 Like you're not going to be bought in, but if 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.820 you can bring some enthusiasm about it and have 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:24.320 it be relatable and talk the person's language, 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.120 not your own jargon, the whole point in this 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.610 podcast. helps people get on that journey. And 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:37.470 I tend to find that management like to talk numbers 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:42.629 and savings. And luckily, in the carbon space, 00:13:42.809 --> 00:13:47.710 a lot of efficiencies are synergistic with carbon 00:13:47.710 --> 00:13:51.409 reduction. On the flip side, things like due 00:13:51.409 --> 00:13:54.149 diligence, human rights, remuneration, that sort 00:13:54.149 --> 00:13:56.850 of thing, tends to add additional costs. So it's 00:13:56.850 --> 00:14:00.529 trying to You have to pick your battles and then 00:14:00.529 --> 00:14:02.970 you have to give the overall long -term picture. 00:14:03.029 --> 00:14:05.909 Obviously, a lot of this is you invest now and 00:14:05.909 --> 00:14:07.690 you'll get the return investment in X amount 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:11.710 of years. But yeah, in terms of the leadership 00:14:11.710 --> 00:14:14.269 and communication piece, it's very much you've 00:14:14.269 --> 00:14:16.870 got to tailor it and you've got to make sure 00:14:16.870 --> 00:14:20.210 that you use simple things like we were delivering 00:14:20.210 --> 00:14:22.509 some workshops or I've been delivering some workshops 00:14:22.509 --> 00:14:26.600 within the Newport site that we have. Straight 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:29.320 away, I wasn't presenting to them. I was making 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:30.980 it interactive. I was asking them questions. 00:14:31.019 --> 00:14:33.799 And if they participated, you get a chocolate 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:35.960 thrown at you. But that's the thing, isn't it? 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.820 It's sometimes you have to take it really simple, 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:41.419 not just the content, but how you approach it 00:14:41.419 --> 00:14:44.559 as well. Is it easier when people see that the 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:47.440 prime minister bans barbecues to stop wildfires 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.919 when people can't get? And there's summer holiday 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.399 because of wildfires in Europe. Do you think 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:55.600 that helps in a way? Does it tip the balance? 00:14:55.820 --> 00:15:01.379 It depends on the individuals, really, because 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:05.320 a lot of the political side is, it depends who 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:06.740 you speak to in the office. Some people are really 00:15:06.740 --> 00:15:09.299 tuned into politics. Others are just like, I 00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:11.580 just like my family, my work. That's my bubble. 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.679 When there's big legislative changes that impact. 00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:18.440 a person's work that's when they start to dive 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.340 into a bit more of a political sphere i .e okay 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:24.759 why is this happening what's the the reasoning 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.100 behind it but i think things like that little 00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:30.879 steps to show that oh we can get quick wins and 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:32.740 then you can use that yourself as an analogy 00:15:32.740 --> 00:15:36.240 for your own quick wins it's interesting i think 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.600 with any topic People like to be right and they 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.379 look for things that reinforce that they're right. 00:15:42.980 --> 00:15:46.580 So the company in this room, we believe that 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:48.539 climate change is man -made. We believe that 00:15:48.539 --> 00:15:51.720 this summer that we're having, oh, it started 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.059 in spring, didn't it? So I thought to some people, 00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:56.960 oh, it's an El Nino, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, well, 00:15:57.019 --> 00:15:59.139 it's nothing to do with climate change. Or yes, 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:02.179 the earth's getting hotter, but it's natural. 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:03.700 It's a natural occurrence. It's nothing to do 00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:07.759 with us. And sometimes you can forget that. there 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:09.759 are because we surround ourselves with people 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.019 who think like us and that's that's human nature 00:16:12.019 --> 00:16:15.899 so we are not in an echo chamber justine do not 00:16:15.899 --> 00:16:19.759 say that no i think there's something about different 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.419 kind of siloed thinking that you've got to everybody's 00:16:22.419 --> 00:16:25.279 at different stages around this we can't you 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:29.100 can't deny the facts and i think that in the 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:30.840 work that we do with different organizations 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.889 i can see that sort of division across you know 00:16:34.889 --> 00:16:37.490 working with trustees in a charity or an operational 00:16:37.490 --> 00:16:41.509 team versus you know a leadership team you see 00:16:41.509 --> 00:16:44.690 there are different points and that's uh yeah 00:16:44.690 --> 00:16:47.409 that misinformation part around it can create 00:16:47.409 --> 00:16:50.149 kind of extremes around the views it certainly 00:16:50.149 --> 00:16:52.730 can yeah and that's that's that's where a lot 00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:55.809 of tension comes from in in organizations and 00:16:55.809 --> 00:16:57.629 particularly around this which i suppose if you 00:16:57.629 --> 00:16:59.049 think about what's happening in the states where 00:16:59.049 --> 00:17:02.350 there's a rollback on asg We're in a space at 00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:05.569 the moment in the UK where we're sort of pushing 00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:08.529 forward. But there's a lot that depends on the 00:17:08.529 --> 00:17:11.730 decisions that get made at the top. Shall we 00:17:11.730 --> 00:17:16.069 look at the E, S and G separately? I'm not sure, 00:17:16.150 --> 00:17:20.069 but we'll meander around on this sort of topic. 00:17:20.289 --> 00:17:23.690 Tell me about, you know, we've got... Orcas coming 00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:27.789 to Scarborough, climate change. We've got vineyards 00:17:27.789 --> 00:17:30.529 in Yorkshire. So climate change has some benefits. 00:17:31.210 --> 00:17:34.789 But that aside, what are your thoughts about 00:17:34.789 --> 00:17:38.269 how you're working on this? And I'm particularly 00:17:38.269 --> 00:17:41.230 looking at you, Dane, you're really in the thick 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:43.950 of it in the work that you do because you are 00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:45.910 importing things that grow. You're importing 00:17:45.910 --> 00:17:48.349 plants. You are distributing them. Tell me about 00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:51.269 that because it's quite a phenomenal story about 00:17:51.269 --> 00:17:56.710 that company. Yeah, so for us, the carbon question 00:17:56.710 --> 00:17:59.069 or the E, should I say the environmental question, 00:17:59.309 --> 00:18:04.650 is really hot topic for our MD because she wants 00:18:04.650 --> 00:18:07.869 to be able to make sourcing decisions based on 00:18:07.869 --> 00:18:12.170 not just cost, not just availability, but also 00:18:12.170 --> 00:18:15.349 environmental. environmental impact as well so 00:18:15.349 --> 00:18:19.549 one of the quantifiers is the carbon number so 00:18:19.549 --> 00:18:21.869 what we've done is we've included within our 00:18:21.869 --> 00:18:24.009 scope of our assessment transport and distribution 00:18:24.009 --> 00:18:27.529 as well as purchase goods and services now the 00:18:27.529 --> 00:18:29.230 transport and distribution side basically looks 00:18:29.230 --> 00:18:33.170 at each product we have by country of origin 00:18:33.170 --> 00:18:36.230 and how we source it do we source it by air freight 00:18:36.230 --> 00:18:40.759 or is it by sea freight and so we use defra or 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:44.339 desnes i think is now emission factors and the 00:18:44.339 --> 00:18:47.859 air emissions or air freight emissions are significantly 00:18:47.859 --> 00:18:50.599 higher than sea emissions so you'd think i'm 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:52.779 going to opt for c but there's a little bit more 00:18:52.779 --> 00:18:55.339 nuance because i found out through you know just 00:18:55.339 --> 00:18:58.420 asking people on the shop floor the technical 00:18:58.420 --> 00:19:02.119 and quality team the um the production team could 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:05.019 we just transition straight blankets to sea freight 00:19:05.019 --> 00:19:07.200 and they're like well we have to purchase more 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.599 volume because there's a higher percentage of 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:14.640 waste so it's like okay so i now have to balance 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:18.880 an increase in cost and output for extra volume 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.519 but we're saving a bit on the sea freight but 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:25.119 obviously as well you've got straits being closed 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.220 here there and everywhere so routes aren't as 00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:31.980 direct as they once were so there's a geopolitics 00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:35.569 side there's a an actual product element as well. 00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:38.869 So I think that the whole point for me for the 00:19:38.869 --> 00:19:41.690 environmental side, particularly carbon, is asking 00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:45.369 questions and understanding how everything knits 00:19:45.369 --> 00:19:48.690 together and trying to find a pragmatic approach 00:19:48.690 --> 00:19:52.910 and to be able to have plan B's and C's as well 00:19:52.910 --> 00:19:56.910 as your option A for each decision that you make. 00:19:57.049 --> 00:19:58.589 Obviously, you don't want to bombard people with 00:19:58.589 --> 00:20:00.190 options or else it's just like, I don't know 00:20:00.190 --> 00:20:03.339 what to choose. But I think that... approach 00:20:03.339 --> 00:20:07.400 that jz flowers has taken is i think it's it's 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.940 at least sector leading because it's giving individuals 00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:14.259 the buying team the the know -how to be able 00:20:14.259 --> 00:20:19.960 to leverage certain growers and certain producers 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:24.519 where we source from how much it costs and how 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:27.799 it's getting to us so that for us is is a key 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:31.160 metric and your business is is often around fair 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:34.420 trade agreements as well. Yes, absolutely. And 00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:38.319 that's another thing, traceability. We have to 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.400 basically do both internal audits and have external 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.559 audits on the fair trade remuneration. So where 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:47.940 does that money actually go? Because our customers 00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:51.119 are very... They pay a premium, essentially, 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.059 as does the end consumer. So they want to see 00:20:55.059 --> 00:20:57.039 that that money is going towards something that 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:00.460 has... real value. And it's not just going into, 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.359 say, shareholders' pockets, etc. There's a real 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.680 push for traceability of virtually every single 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:09.539 stem from every single country. And we source 00:21:09.539 --> 00:21:12.420 from the likes of India, Ethiopia, right the 00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:17.819 way to Portugal. And it must be 1 ,600 plus different 00:21:17.819 --> 00:21:21.500 growers, over a billion stems a year. From 1 00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:23.480 ,600 growers, that traceability is going to be 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.000 really difficult. But somehow, some way, we find 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.640 that ability, which is, I think, when it came 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:32.819 into the organisation, I was like, this is a 00:21:32.819 --> 00:21:34.640 well -knit together thing. This gives me that 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.619 context and springboard to be able to map all 00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:40.960 the things on top of it. Do you see that there's 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.500 going to be a change in the kind of flowers available 00:21:43.500 --> 00:21:47.920 because of the changing climate across the globe 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:51.839 and just that? Growing certain breeds are going 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.519 to be really hard to do and impossible from a 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.480 carbon footprint. Absolutely. So not just from 00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.299 a carbon perspective. So we've found that, you 00:21:59.299 --> 00:22:03.000 know, the, I think we call it the greenery. So 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.099 you know how you have like bunches of flowers 00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:07.539 and there's like, I think we call it pistache. 00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:10.559 It's sourced from Spain and it's basically how 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.400 it's sourced is people that live in a local area 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:17.059 just go wild harvesting. and then sell that to 00:22:17.059 --> 00:22:19.420 a local distributor and they give them money. 00:22:19.900 --> 00:22:22.839 Recently, there's been legislation change where 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:25.900 all of those people that are cutting back the 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:31.019 wild harvest, they have to have a license. And 00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:33.039 these people that are doing the harvesting are 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.319 living from day to day. So there's been massive 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:40.579 pushback and then an increase in cost of sourcing. 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.779 wild harvest passage which is like say that green 00:22:43.779 --> 00:22:46.940 that adds to your bunches so that availability 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:51.539 suddenly squeezed because everyone was like oh 00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:55.039 i don't want to have this extra cost and it's 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.940 a massive up taking chain making everything more 00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:02.079 traceable because and as i say and like you mentioned 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:05.740 about the availability of flowers We are looking 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:07.960 at, or at least some of the growers that we work 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:11.619 with, are looking at hybridising certain traits 00:23:11.619 --> 00:23:15.759 within different flowers so that they can withstand 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.099 sea freight better. So looking at that wastage 00:23:19.099 --> 00:23:21.440 figure again, it all sort of loops back into, 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.079 but yeah. And that's a really good example of 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:29.839 when someone's rushing to the shop, to Sainsbury's 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.970 or wherever, to get grandma's carnations. for 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:37.089 Mother's Day, that there's a whole supply chain 00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:38.849 of things. There's a journey that it's taken. 00:23:38.849 --> 00:23:40.890 Yeah, there's a journey, yeah. And it's been 00:23:40.890 --> 00:23:43.690 aware, isn't it, as a consumer on that. Yeah, 00:23:43.750 --> 00:23:47.410 I'm surprised to hear that even in the UK we're 00:23:47.410 --> 00:23:51.349 getting stems from India. Yep, roses particularly. 00:23:51.809 --> 00:23:56.210 Yeah, interesting. Yeah, the English rose, not 00:23:56.210 --> 00:24:01.029 so English. I mean, volumes are just there, but 00:24:01.029 --> 00:24:05.480 the thing that... India have and Kenya and Ethiopia, 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:10.220 they have so much land that they can have these 00:24:10.220 --> 00:24:14.299 huge monoculture farms that they are able to 00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:19.880 grow at such scale. I mean, you say the word 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:21.539 monoculture and straight away you're like, oh, 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:23.039 well, that's not a good idea, is it? Exactly, 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.319 exactly. Do you want to unpack that a little 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.039 bit? Well, do you know, actually, I was just 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:33.869 reading. that globally since the 70s, like biodiversity 00:24:33.869 --> 00:24:37.869 has gone down approximately 73 % since the 70s. 00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:41.829 That's a huge amount. You know, there's a lot 00:24:41.829 --> 00:24:44.309 of people on the planet to feed. There's a lot 00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:47.289 of people who, you know, buy roses and other 00:24:47.289 --> 00:24:49.690 products and things that we, especially in the 00:24:49.690 --> 00:24:52.509 global north, sort of take for granted that we 00:24:52.509 --> 00:24:55.269 can just get something seasonally. It's not seasonal 00:24:55.269 --> 00:24:57.559 anymore. Any time of year. and we can just buy 00:24:57.559 --> 00:24:59.859 it from a supermarket. That's had a big impact 00:24:59.859 --> 00:25:03.059 on the rest of the world, you know, our expectations 00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:06.779 on things. We want it now. I know, I know. And 00:25:06.779 --> 00:25:11.940 I'm such a tinker for that too. Thank you. It's 00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:13.599 quite nice to see things like there are some, 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:16.579 particularly around these parts in East and North 00:25:16.579 --> 00:25:19.220 Yorkshire, around kind of flat farmers who are 00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:22.200 growing wildflowers and selling them and creating 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:24.720 a kind of visitor destination. So there's a bit 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.720 of a shift around. locally sourced I think that's 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.400 really interesting I picked up a fact which you 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:34.000 might not have agreed with but around the kind 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.599 of daffodil sort of industry and I think that 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.019 was my take on the supply chain behind that and 00:25:41.019 --> 00:25:43.839 how that's grown over you know British sourced 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:46.460 daffodils and how do we do that because we want 00:25:46.460 --> 00:25:49.599 them at a certain point in february march and 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:51.680 there's a whole sort of thing there about consumer 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.619 demand and how that marries with the seasons 00:25:54.619 --> 00:25:57.940 i mean deaths i've recently been on a call with 00:25:57.940 --> 00:26:01.259 um a colleague that is she daffodils is like 00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:03.779 her thing and we were basically looking at a 00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:06.660 nice call exactly exactly we were looking at 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:09.380 traceability so we were just tinkering with our 00:26:09.380 --> 00:26:12.359 transport and distribution data looking at the 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:16.130 sourcing distances and she said Oh, what year 00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:18.450 are you looking at? Oh, we're doing reporting 00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:22.009 year 2025. So she was like, oh, 24, 25 season. 00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:25.349 We were like, yes. And she was like, oh, yeah, 00:26:25.390 --> 00:26:28.009 that's when we were good with DAFs. So I'm like, 00:26:28.130 --> 00:26:31.170 what do you mean? So she was like, next year, 00:26:31.250 --> 00:26:34.069 as in your next reporting year, DAF deals just 00:26:34.069 --> 00:26:36.369 dropped off the planet because we were too wet 00:26:36.369 --> 00:26:39.130 in winter. And then this summer is just absolutely, 00:26:39.269 --> 00:26:43.509 they need about three seasons to get a strong 00:26:43.509 --> 00:26:47.549 culture. and that's just not... So if you want 00:26:47.549 --> 00:26:51.289 daffodils, get them now because they're not going 00:26:51.289 --> 00:26:55.109 to be as available next year. Let's not start 00:26:55.109 --> 00:26:58.569 panic buying. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. Plant your 00:26:58.569 --> 00:27:01.269 own. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Plant your own. 00:27:01.390 --> 00:27:03.369 There's only takes on that because this thing 00:27:03.369 --> 00:27:05.990 about climate resilience, which is a term that's 00:27:05.990 --> 00:27:09.869 come in a lot more recently, nature resilience, 00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:14.000 should I say, but, you know, the role of... biodiversity 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.599 for a business like you it's it's about the place 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:20.140 isn't it and it's the same for things like farmers 00:27:20.140 --> 00:27:24.839 big processing engineering related businesses 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.359 there's a knock -on effect on on kind of water 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:31.740 catchment all that that kind of thing how do 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:36.519 you see that as a way to build that buy -in organization 00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:39.619 should be thinking about we do this this is our 00:27:39.619 --> 00:27:41.599 business and actually that will have a knock 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.740 -on effect. I often think haulage and logistics 00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:47.220 are really interesting. I know there's some innovative 00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:49.200 work in that space with different companies like 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:56.619 Clipper. For us, biodiversity hits home and abroad. 00:27:57.019 --> 00:28:02.240 So when we are at our sites, if we want to expand 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.940 or build upon the current site that we have, 00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:10.259 we have to basically ensure that we meet... biodiversity 00:28:10.259 --> 00:28:14.019 net gain requirements which is plus 10 each council 00:28:14.019 --> 00:28:17.480 may add an extra two percent or whatever but 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:20.700 essentially for our local operations we have 00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:23.359 to increase biodiversity through whether it's 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:27.180 um how we discharge our our flower food and water 00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:32.259 or replanting rewilding etc but we're trying 00:28:32.259 --> 00:28:35.299 to get a grasp of that specifically in 2027 whereby 00:28:35.299 --> 00:28:38.960 we're doing something called a supply chain biodiversity 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:42.420 footprint which is essentially looking at it 00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:45.220 uses a very crude metric on spend but it also 00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:49.160 looks at your country of origin and the impact 00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:53.240 that has per what product you're sourcing and 00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:57.029 then we can give metrics on that and add that 00:28:57.029 --> 00:28:59.490 as another variable when it comes to sourcing 00:28:59.490 --> 00:29:03.049 decisions and use it as a way to not go, we're 00:29:03.049 --> 00:29:04.309 not going to buy from you, but we'll buy from 00:29:04.309 --> 00:29:08.250 you, but to help steer the reds into the ambers 00:29:08.250 --> 00:29:10.970 or the ambers into the greens. So I think these 00:29:10.970 --> 00:29:14.309 metrics, we don't want to use them as exclusivity, 00:29:14.390 --> 00:29:17.109 but we do want to use them as something that 00:29:17.109 --> 00:29:19.309 can help guide them into the right direction. 00:29:19.849 --> 00:29:22.210 Yeah, and it's interesting that influence from 00:29:22.210 --> 00:29:24.990 a large organisation along your supply chain, 00:29:25.190 --> 00:29:28.210 because that's similar to like with carbon counting 00:29:28.210 --> 00:29:32.630 in that it's that influencing through either 00:29:32.630 --> 00:29:36.329 end of your supply chain, isn't it? That asking 00:29:36.329 --> 00:29:38.650 that question and keep asking those questions. 00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:42.210 And again, it's kind of like normalising. You've 00:29:42.210 --> 00:29:44.309 got to keep track of this. You've got to be able 00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:48.250 to be prepared if you can't. give a robust answer 00:29:48.250 --> 00:29:51.250 that you might lose our business absolutely yeah 00:29:51.250 --> 00:29:54.650 let's move on to the social perspective of this 00:29:54.650 --> 00:29:57.250 and there's a big thing about social value at 00:29:57.250 --> 00:29:59.630 the moment with again announcements from the 00:29:59.630 --> 00:30:02.490 government building that sort of skills side 00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:06.049 into contracts public procurement but there's 00:30:06.049 --> 00:30:09.509 also a big part here about being diverse as a 00:30:10.190 --> 00:30:13.849 As an organisation, I started off life in a university 00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:15.950 background, so I always think we were very good 00:30:15.950 --> 00:30:18.630 in that sector around that. James, obviously 00:30:18.630 --> 00:30:20.950 you work in the charity sector and the third 00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:23.750 sector as well. But yeah, I've been having quite 00:30:23.750 --> 00:30:27.130 a few conversations recently with founders and 00:30:27.130 --> 00:30:29.750 CEOs of charities about what social value means 00:30:29.750 --> 00:30:34.640 to them and what they... When they're talking 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.440 to funders, what do funders mean? And do those 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:42.180 two things align? And sometimes they don't. So, 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:47.700 yeah, talking to a CEO of a local charity, CIC, 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:51.460 sorry, the funders want to know the direct impact 00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:55.470 of what that pound per person helped. For them, 00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:57.869 they want to be able to do maintenance on their 00:30:57.869 --> 00:30:59.829 properties and they want to be able to. So they're 00:30:59.829 --> 00:31:02.730 like, we really want, so unrestricted funding 00:31:02.730 --> 00:31:07.029 is like a godsend, obviously. And I think that's 00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:10.009 any organisation, that unrestricted funding. 00:31:10.109 --> 00:31:12.630 But particularly because there are some things 00:31:12.630 --> 00:31:14.690 that they know that they could do to their properties 00:31:14.690 --> 00:31:19.289 that they use that would reduce their impact 00:31:19.289 --> 00:31:22.109 on the environment. You know, they could get 00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:24.910 better insulation. They could swap out something 00:31:24.910 --> 00:31:28.789 as simple as swapping out light bulbs. But because 00:31:28.789 --> 00:31:31.150 of the way that the funding is and they have 00:31:31.150 --> 00:31:34.809 to say exactly what that money went to and how 00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:38.009 many people they helped, they can't demonstrate 00:31:38.009 --> 00:31:43.170 that with doing wider environmental -based initiatives. 00:31:43.529 --> 00:31:45.529 And that got me really thinking because we're 00:31:45.529 --> 00:31:47.869 thinking, well, I hadn't even considered that. 00:31:47.990 --> 00:31:51.849 That organisation's already... niche but they're 00:31:51.849 --> 00:31:54.589 being they can't look a bit further on because 00:31:54.589 --> 00:31:57.630 it's not in their charitable aims but yeah there's 00:31:57.630 --> 00:32:01.930 i mean and and social value is obviously there 00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:04.690 is a definition but actually when you talk to 00:32:04.690 --> 00:32:06.730 people and you say social value that's a really 00:32:06.730 --> 00:32:09.730 subjective area for people because they they 00:32:09.730 --> 00:32:12.210 they have a an idea of their own in their own 00:32:12.210 --> 00:32:15.410 mind about what that is um not necessarily like 00:32:15.410 --> 00:32:19.200 with the procurement side of things um where 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:23.200 it's very distinct questions like eight ten questions 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:26.779 this kpi this metric is yeah yeah but when you 00:32:26.779 --> 00:32:29.599 talk to we've talked to people who aren't in 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:31.700 that kind of role and in that industry they're 00:32:31.700 --> 00:32:34.819 like oh well actually yeah it is we had this 00:32:34.819 --> 00:32:37.900 amount of headcount at our event and it's more 00:32:37.900 --> 00:32:40.480 than last year but we didn't spend as much as 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:42.720 last year or we spent similar to last year you 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:46.490 know so that's that's how People kind of see 00:32:46.490 --> 00:32:50.809 it in that respect. Reporting can be a big challenge 00:32:50.809 --> 00:32:54.950 for a small organisation. I totally agree with 00:32:54.950 --> 00:32:56.990 what you're saying. I'm hearing the same thing, 00:32:57.069 --> 00:33:01.289 that funders, particularly big funders, are being 00:33:01.289 --> 00:33:04.869 really restrictive around the make -up of boards 00:33:04.869 --> 00:33:08.190 for a governance board. They want to see that 00:33:08.190 --> 00:33:10.809 kind of impact down the supply chain. But often 00:33:10.809 --> 00:33:12.859 a lot of this, as you know, comes... back to 00:33:12.859 --> 00:33:16.099 how do I measure this? This came up a lot in 00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:18.559 the work that we've done. How do we measure this 00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:20.359 in the different things, whether I'm running 00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:24.859 a broadband provider or a manufacturer? How do 00:33:24.859 --> 00:33:27.519 you measure all this stuff? There's metrics within 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:33.759 metrics, I guess. How my work's assessed is in 00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.319 terms of the reporting. is for instance the workshops 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.200 that i recently did so i did departmental workshops 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.539 so for each department i did um basically a knowledge 00:33:44.539 --> 00:33:48.279 checker quiz at the start and it was right no 00:33:48.279 --> 00:33:51.440 laptops no phones fill this in i'll give you 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.440 your score and then after you'll repeat the same 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:56.819 thing but all the answers they are within this 00:33:56.819 --> 00:34:00.720 presentation or this this workshop and i had 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.779 an average score of 7 .6 Across the board for 00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:07.180 the pre -session quiz, the post -session quiz, 00:34:07.339 --> 00:34:11.500 12 .7. So I saw that straightaway an uptick in 00:34:11.500 --> 00:34:14.860 terms of knowledge building. But from more of 00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:20.820 a CSR and CSRD perspective, the reporting element 00:34:20.820 --> 00:34:25.340 is really crucial and it can be a little bit 00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:29.059 gung -ho. So what I did was I used two international 00:34:29.059 --> 00:34:31.909 standards without getting too technical. greenhouse 00:34:31.909 --> 00:34:36.030 gas protocol and an iso 14064 standard merge 00:34:36.030 --> 00:34:38.929 those two together so that the people that understand 00:34:38.929 --> 00:34:42.489 a little bit of sustainability so the greenhouse 00:34:42.489 --> 00:34:45.949 gases scope one two three they could also have 00:34:45.949 --> 00:34:50.429 that mapped onto a standard that is within quality 00:34:51.809 --> 00:34:55.210 security and technical so that they can see that 00:34:55.210 --> 00:34:58.170 it has a set out structure, set out methodology, 00:34:58.329 --> 00:35:02.010 and it's clear, complete and transparent. My 00:35:02.010 --> 00:35:05.070 biggest bugbear for reporting is, look how great 00:35:05.070 --> 00:35:07.889 we are. And there's no bad bits. Whereas with 00:35:07.889 --> 00:35:11.010 the report that I've put together is it's transparent. 00:35:11.230 --> 00:35:14.150 It is. We know that this isn't the best data 00:35:14.150 --> 00:35:15.949 set in the world. And this is how we're going 00:35:15.949 --> 00:35:18.309 to improve moving forward. So it's warts and 00:35:18.309 --> 00:35:22.670 all. In terms of a reportability perspective, 00:35:22.969 --> 00:35:25.869 I think if you can standardise the approach and 00:35:25.869 --> 00:35:29.590 also justify it with complete and accurate data, 00:35:29.809 --> 00:35:32.769 that's how you can quantify. And presumably you 00:35:32.769 --> 00:35:35.769 will need to have those allies across the organisation 00:35:35.769 --> 00:35:37.269 that are going to give you the data because the 00:35:37.269 --> 00:35:39.570 data will be all over the shop or not even there. 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:42.659 And one of the things that I really wanted to 00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:45.539 pick up on in this podcast was there are so many 00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:49.139 advertisements out there. Because I'm in sustainability, 00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:51.239 my LinkedIn is, it's just got sustainability 00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:52.900 plastered all over it. I'm connected to every 00:35:52.900 --> 00:35:54.900 single sustainability person ever. You were a 00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:59.920 hub. Constantly marketed to, don't ever have 00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:02.760 to ask about sustainability data again. Have 00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.219 AI do it. I think we're missing a trick with 00:36:06.219 --> 00:36:12.460 that is. Asking the question makes you understand 00:36:12.460 --> 00:36:15.179 a person, understand what their drivers are, 00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:17.739 but also helps you interrogate the answers that 00:36:17.739 --> 00:36:21.320 they give and can give you insight into what 00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.420 can be practical steps for reduction as well 00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:28.460 as how can I help this person sell their idea 00:36:28.460 --> 00:36:33.989 to management. So if you get AI to do it, it's 00:36:33.989 --> 00:36:35.949 sort of faceless, nameless, and it's just numbers 00:36:35.949 --> 00:36:38.190 at the end of the day. Humans are good, then. 00:36:38.630 --> 00:36:44.309 Yeah. That's good to hear, reassuring. But I 00:36:44.309 --> 00:36:46.190 think a lot of it's about relationships, isn't 00:36:46.190 --> 00:36:48.389 it? And that kind of goes back into the social 00:36:48.389 --> 00:36:51.590 side of things, about how you embed this in organisations. 00:36:52.449 --> 00:36:56.309 Yeah. And so, like, if you look at the HR... 00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:59.780 What is now modern HR and where it used to be 00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:02.159 as personnel, where it was just literally doing 00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.239 the payroll and a couple of very transactional 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:08.400 things, you know, back in the 50s and 60s and 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:12.460 its transition over the years to become businesses, 00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:15.199 all businesses have, large organisations have 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:19.920 a HR officer or an equivalent of that. And the, 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:23.340 you know, the responsibilities are now... with 00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:25.780 managers to do some of the things that maybe 00:37:25.780 --> 00:37:29.139 30 years ago was you'd send somebody off to HR 00:37:29.139 --> 00:37:30.619 because they were poorly or they had a performance 00:37:30.619 --> 00:37:34.300 issue well we're realizing those relationships 00:37:34.300 --> 00:37:37.260 should be with the people who are closest to 00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:39.539 them so the manager should be having that chat 00:37:39.539 --> 00:37:42.320 and say oh you've been poorly are you okay and 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:46.320 then that it hits a compliance tick because you 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:48.019 may be getting a return to work conversation 00:37:48.019 --> 00:37:50.860 you may be getting a self -certification form 00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:52.800 out of somebody so that's the compliance side 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.679 of things but it's also that actually are you 00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.780 okay should you be back at work it's a what what 00:37:58.780 --> 00:38:00.880 happened like is there anything i can do to help 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:05.460 and they don't have to be separate things and 00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:07.360 and i think that's that's what dane's saying 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.000 as well about that communication yes you might 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.300 be in your in your world you might be looking 00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:15.570 for data and figures and But in other worlds, 00:38:15.769 --> 00:38:18.369 you know, those relationships are there and I 00:38:18.369 --> 00:38:20.550 see that's what sustainability is doing as an 00:38:20.550 --> 00:38:22.389 industry, is it's moved from just a compliance, 00:38:22.670 --> 00:38:24.429 I'm going to build a spreadsheet and I'm going 00:38:24.429 --> 00:38:27.210 to give you some facts and figures into this 00:38:27.210 --> 00:38:30.030 integrated part of a business. But if you're 00:38:30.030 --> 00:38:32.730 looking at like a company, I think it's 99 % 00:38:32.730 --> 00:38:36.570 of organisations in the UK are SMEs and then 00:38:36.570 --> 00:38:40.099 you've got... Out of those 99%, 80 % of those 00:38:40.099 --> 00:38:43.579 have got less than 50 employees. So to me, my 00:38:43.579 --> 00:38:47.019 passion is with these folks, these smaller organisations 00:38:47.019 --> 00:38:52.280 and how they get the data because they don't 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.639 have to do relations across functional stuff 00:38:55.639 --> 00:39:00.239 because there is... It's a small organisation. 00:39:00.739 --> 00:39:03.119 It's in some ways easier to make a difference. 00:39:03.460 --> 00:39:06.800 Yeah, it can be. Just a resource and maybe knowledge 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.780 issue, isn't it? Yeah, but again, they've got 00:39:09.780 --> 00:39:11.739 so many different demands on them as well as 00:39:11.739 --> 00:39:14.539 the carbon counting. So, you know, obviously 00:39:14.539 --> 00:39:18.039 employment law is constantly changing and rightly 00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:21.010 so want to be. creating more diversity, that 00:39:21.010 --> 00:39:24.510 EDI aspect within organisations. But it's upskilling 00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:27.530 the people to know that and to know where they 00:39:27.530 --> 00:39:29.309 stand with the law as well. So, like, sexual 00:39:29.309 --> 00:39:31.929 harassment has just... The laws in there are 00:39:31.929 --> 00:39:35.050 becoming so much more stricter about, you know, 00:39:35.070 --> 00:39:39.090 taking reasonable actions to prevent sexual harassment. 00:39:39.190 --> 00:39:41.969 And these are all things that managing directors 00:39:41.969 --> 00:39:45.449 and owners, founders of small businesses, just 00:39:45.449 --> 00:39:49.840 like, well, what does that mean? So... In each 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.699 area of ESG, we could do a separate podcast on 00:39:52.699 --> 00:39:55.860 it. Yeah, no, that dawned on me actually when 00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:59.480 I was having this conversation. It tips into 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:03.260 governance. This is the thing. Before we go into 00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:05.440 that quickly, I just wanted to go back to that 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:10.000 industry standards piece. There's lots of frameworks 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.179 that have been brought in over the past 40, 50 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:14.800 years to help. There's lots of different things. 00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:19.420 I'm kind of amazed at the depth that some teams 00:40:19.420 --> 00:40:22.139 are going into to sort of deliver that, and it's 00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:25.260 across all different areas of a business, operating 00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:27.960 business. Do you want to say a little bit about 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.880 what they mean? Because some organisations, particularly 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:34.679 SMEs, might not have kind of considered that. 00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:40.860 Yeah, I mean, a lot of the standards or the frameworks 00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:44.280 or the reporting bodies that organisations have 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:48.510 to report to, There are usually criteria that 00:40:48.510 --> 00:40:52.969 is the same across most of them. So it's usually 00:40:52.969 --> 00:40:58.389 based on balance sheets, assets, as well as number 00:40:58.389 --> 00:41:01.909 of full -time employed staff. So the usual is, 00:41:02.030 --> 00:41:05.050 you know, if you're looking at 249 plus employees, 00:41:05.170 --> 00:41:09.239 then there's mandated. environmental reporting 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:12.019 that you have to do so particularly CSRD there 00:41:12.019 --> 00:41:16.400 is the SECR so that's a streamlined energy carbon 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:21.139 reporting that's majority of the UK and also 00:41:21.139 --> 00:41:24.420 it depends on what products you import export 00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:27.139 so there's recently the carbon border adjustment 00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:30.840 mechanism that's there's an EU version a UK version 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:34.500 and then there's going to be a US version so 00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:37.519 and that's to do with specific whether it's for 00:41:37.579 --> 00:41:39.840 fertiliser, cement, aluminium, et cetera, that 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:42.519 you import, export, and there's a carbon tax 00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:44.960 on that. To be able to have that carbon tax, 00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:47.260 you need to know what the carbon impact is of 00:41:47.260 --> 00:41:51.280 your product that you're sourcing. So it can 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:55.559 be quite... It's really dependent on your size 00:41:55.559 --> 00:41:59.039 of your organisation and where you start to meet 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.320 those criteria, keeping a handle on that, so 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:05.519 with HR records as well as your finance records. 00:42:06.460 --> 00:42:09.639 but also just keeping your finger on the pulse. 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:13.659 But it's so difficult to, I'm all good with health 00:42:13.659 --> 00:42:16.159 and safety. Okay, now employment law, oh, that's 00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:18.400 changing again. Oh, sustainability has changed 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:22.860 again. It is a bit of a minefield. So I think 00:42:22.860 --> 00:42:27.059 that's where consultancy is a real help because 00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:30.820 you can onboard a specialist that can say. This 00:42:30.820 --> 00:42:32.900 is my particular niche. I know that I've got 00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:35.260 the finger on the pulse with this. I've looked 00:42:35.260 --> 00:42:37.199 at what your business is doing. You ought to 00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:42.139 be doing X, Y, Z. So I think that in terms of 00:42:42.139 --> 00:42:47.119 standards and frameworks, it is ever -changing, 00:42:47.139 --> 00:42:50.639 but I can see a slight shift in terms of they 00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:54.860 are all starting to coalesce. And I was going 00:42:54.860 --> 00:42:58.019 to ask you about that because in SRS regulations 00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:01.920 coming in January for the PLCs and then obviously 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:04.300 the year after that, starting on the reporting 00:43:04.300 --> 00:43:09.739 for the, again, plus 250 or 249 employers. Do 00:43:09.739 --> 00:43:11.679 you think that it's going to simplify things? 00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:13.519 Because I think it's going to really have a knock 00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:15.780 -on effect. This is where we're going to see 00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:19.500 that trickle -down effect to the wider, smaller 00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:24.619 companies. reporting and having to get things 00:43:24.619 --> 00:43:26.800 out. So the simpler it is for them, the better. 00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:29.639 So do you think that's going to happen? I think 00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:32.800 it really depends on who's at the top of the 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.739 organisation. It's their driver. Are they in 00:43:35.739 --> 00:43:39.019 it just for legacy and ego or are they wanting 00:43:39.019 --> 00:43:43.550 to actually make a difference? are keeping abreast 00:43:43.550 --> 00:43:46.889 of what is happening in terms of changes in standards 00:43:46.889 --> 00:43:49.829 and legislation and frameworks. So I think it 00:43:49.829 --> 00:43:52.989 will in the organisations that want it, but I 00:43:52.989 --> 00:43:55.269 think those organisations that are just existing 00:43:55.269 --> 00:43:59.429 just to make the money, which obviously is usually 00:43:59.429 --> 00:44:01.710 a main driver. It's usually the only reason an 00:44:01.710 --> 00:44:04.489 organisation exists. But I think it will make 00:44:04.489 --> 00:44:09.579 it simpler, long story short. so governance as 00:44:09.579 --> 00:44:12.739 a foundation for long -term success particularly 00:44:12.739 --> 00:44:15.179 important for big companies is why we see these 00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:18.239 shifts in the investment that they're putting 00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:21.679 into place and sustainability equality diversity 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:25.239 inclusion programs but for smaller businesses 00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:27.239 that's that's still a big challenge and i think 00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:31.360 a lot of them will be holding their hand up and 00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:33.559 saying or actually i'm not sure whether this 00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:35.579 is right for us some organizations if you've 00:44:35.579 --> 00:44:39.119 got 40 staff and you've got 40 plumbers and they're 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:42.699 going to look sort of a feel a sort of homogenized 00:44:42.699 --> 00:44:46.079 group of people how do you argue the case for 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.119 them or is it about adapting to make it a better 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.190 experience to work there and a business that's 00:44:52.190 --> 00:44:55.130 responding to these bigger pressures. When you 00:44:55.130 --> 00:44:59.369 say EDI, there tends to be a specific... Another 00:44:59.369 --> 00:45:01.909 acronym. It's another acronym. I apologise. Yeah, 00:45:01.929 --> 00:45:04.190 yeah. It's Equality, Diversity and Inclusion. 00:45:04.530 --> 00:45:07.670 Of course, this is layered. So I use Babushka 00:45:07.670 --> 00:45:09.829 Doll as an example. So, like, you've got the 00:45:09.829 --> 00:45:13.789 outer layer. So you have the EDI stuff that people... 00:45:15.260 --> 00:45:17.179 out of the nine protected characteristics in 00:45:17.179 --> 00:45:20.019 the UK, there are some of them you can probably 00:45:20.019 --> 00:45:24.659 go, oh, well, for me, as an example, white female, 00:45:24.940 --> 00:45:30.000 40. So I'm like, I aren't quite in an age discrimination 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.119 bracket quite yet. I mean, you know, depending, 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:38.840 I suppose, on who you're asking. And that's like, 00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:41.619 whites, that's, you know, your most privileged. 00:45:42.179 --> 00:45:46.010 Female. Second most privileged. But then there's 00:45:46.010 --> 00:45:48.429 all the other layers underneath it. You don't 00:45:48.429 --> 00:45:51.210 know from somebody from just a glance. And so 00:45:51.210 --> 00:45:53.809 your plumbers, your 49 plumbers and a managing 00:45:53.809 --> 00:45:57.630 director, you might think that they're a homogenised 00:45:57.630 --> 00:46:01.489 group. But when you apply the layers, that managing 00:46:01.489 --> 00:46:03.349 director might be making reasonable adjustments 00:46:03.349 --> 00:46:05.550 for some of his team that he doesn't even call 00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:07.969 it reasonable adjustments. It's just a bit like 00:46:07.969 --> 00:46:11.539 that. So we do it this way for them. And I think 00:46:11.539 --> 00:46:15.059 sometimes all the acronyms and all the laws around 00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:19.380 things can make it feel harder work than it is. 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:22.679 And they are all there trying to make money. 00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:25.699 We all go to work to make money. We all have 00:46:25.699 --> 00:46:31.260 to feed and house ourselves and feed and house 00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:32.920 other people. It's about leadership culture. 00:46:32.940 --> 00:46:36.039 How are you? behave ethically as a business how 00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:39.639 you train your staff them being aware and and 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:43.300 also i think with anybody in in life it's about 00:46:43.300 --> 00:46:46.440 how you check your own privilege on on things 00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:49.440 and understand that nobody's really like you 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:52.699 everybody's coming at life from different angles 00:46:52.699 --> 00:46:55.019 and you've got to be kind of curious about that 00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:57.909 rather than pigeonhole people which is a big 00:46:57.909 --> 00:47:00.190 part of the checking privileges it's a painful 00:47:00.190 --> 00:47:02.550 thing yeah we're coming to the end but let's 00:47:02.550 --> 00:47:05.429 just have some sort of reflections and the challenge 00:47:05.429 --> 00:47:08.590 ahead how are you feeling about it can i say 00:47:08.590 --> 00:47:11.090 that i swing from one side to another between 00:47:11.090 --> 00:47:13.429 being really hopeful that things are going well 00:47:13.429 --> 00:47:17.530 and that we we have enough passionate knowledgeable 00:47:17.530 --> 00:47:21.579 people to be able to make a change and then It's 00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:24.079 usually after I've watched the news. Slight sense 00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:27.400 of despair. I'm hearing a lot around hope at 00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:29.800 the moment. There's a lot of, as you two know 00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:32.480 and the listeners know, I'm a member of the Friends 00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:35.739 of the Earth and I volunteer for them. They have 00:47:35.739 --> 00:47:39.130 a hope strategy. I'm reading a book called Hope 00:47:39.130 --> 00:47:41.690 is a Strategy by a great guy called Ian Pettigrew. 00:47:42.110 --> 00:47:44.530 And I'm hearing it all over the place. And I 00:47:44.530 --> 00:47:45.849 don't know whether that's my reticular activated 00:47:45.849 --> 00:47:48.250 system. Like I've heard hope and then now it's 00:47:48.250 --> 00:47:50.829 like, I'm always hearing hope. Yeah, but I love 00:47:50.829 --> 00:47:52.929 it. I love it. And I think we should embrace 00:47:52.929 --> 00:47:55.849 it because if you don't have hope, how can you 00:47:55.849 --> 00:47:58.869 do anything? Like it's not just wishful thinking, 00:47:58.889 --> 00:48:01.829 it's taking that into action. I resonate with 00:48:01.829 --> 00:48:04.389 your swinging from one side to the other because... 00:48:04.730 --> 00:48:07.010 Although I'm really passionate about what we 00:48:07.010 --> 00:48:12.510 do, the effects are very clear from just our 00:48:12.510 --> 00:48:15.769 doorstep. And you sometimes get the sense of, 00:48:15.869 --> 00:48:20.050 OK, we're past the point of no return. But are 00:48:20.050 --> 00:48:22.309 we? Is there a technology that's currently being 00:48:22.309 --> 00:48:25.670 developed? But for me, it's about mitigation, 00:48:26.050 --> 00:48:30.469 adaptation, as well as doing what we can to protect 00:48:30.469 --> 00:48:36.059 what little we have left. So for me, my reflection 00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:41.619 is I'm hopeful, hope again, but I'm also finding 00:48:41.619 --> 00:48:45.320 that with each individual conversation I'm having, 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:49.340 whether it be out and about or within work, if 00:48:49.340 --> 00:48:51.920 you can resonate with one person on a particular 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:54.440 thing that is sustainable, it could be sustainability 00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:58.150 adjacent. you've touched someone and you've inspired 00:48:58.150 --> 00:49:00.949 someone that then could then inspire and it becomes 00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:03.929 a domino effect. And I think that's what sustainability 00:49:03.929 --> 00:49:06.710 is slowly doing. It's going from this corporate 00:49:06.710 --> 00:49:10.469 thing that then the bubble burst to this more 00:49:10.469 --> 00:49:14.760 ground up. actual thinkers and doers are driving 00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:17.840 this and are helping planting these seeds pardon 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:20.519 the pun about flowers and plants it's allowed 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:25.360 i think that's really nice but that there's a 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:30.579 duty and a purpose to the work that people are 00:49:30.579 --> 00:49:32.719 doing in this space and like you say if you put 00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:35.079 humans together around a problem they'll generally 00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:37.639 work it out i'm kind of radically optimistic 00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:42.349 about what that means for this space but also 00:49:42.349 --> 00:49:45.570 we just touched on an introductory chat to it 00:49:45.570 --> 00:49:48.489 so there's more to come i would say in future 00:49:48.489 --> 00:49:50.849 episodes justine you wanted to come in as we 00:49:50.849 --> 00:49:52.929 came in where we're recording this they're going 00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:55.090 to be doing a showing of the national emergency 00:49:55.090 --> 00:49:57.570 briefing the people's emergency briefing and 00:49:57.570 --> 00:50:01.309 we've got two in beverly so this is august september 00:50:01.309 --> 00:50:03.789 they're showing and they're popping up all over 00:50:03.789 --> 00:50:06.960 the place so we're in in this in our region North 00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:09.820 Lincolnshire, East Yorkshire, Hull, we've been 00:50:09.820 --> 00:50:13.739 really slow on the uptake for that, but the momentum's 00:50:13.739 --> 00:50:15.320 getting going and it's really good to see. Every 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:16.519 time I look at the map, I'm like, ooh, there's 00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:18.300 another little pin in there. There's another 00:50:18.300 --> 00:50:20.519 community place that is going to be showing that. 00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:22.980 And I think the general public understanding 00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:27.670 that this isn't just a tree -hugging issue. Actually, 00:50:27.670 --> 00:50:29.849 this is a national security issue. This is a 00:50:29.849 --> 00:50:32.469 national health issue. Food availability. Food 00:50:32.469 --> 00:50:34.409 availability, yeah. We're only going to see more 00:50:34.409 --> 00:50:37.730 wars, and we do all have to do something. More 00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:40.590 angry, it's all interlinked. Yeah, that's really 00:50:40.590 --> 00:50:43.469 good. And for listeners, we are in Pocklington 00:50:43.469 --> 00:50:46.210 Arts Centre in the East Riding of Yorkshire, 00:50:46.289 --> 00:50:48.710 which is a really lovely venue, so do please 00:50:48.710 --> 00:50:52.199 check that out as well. Thank you both for coming 00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:55.000 today. We could have many more discussions on 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:58.360 this and we will catch up with our pals from 00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:00.519 Hull University Business School at some stage, 00:51:00.579 --> 00:51:03.059 I'm sure. But thank you so much for joining us 00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:05.840 and we'll put your details to connect in the 00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:08.260 show notes. Thank you very much. Thank you very 00:51:08.260 --> 00:51:10.840 much. Thank you for joining us today on The Purpose 00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:13.679 Brief. If you want to connect with us, details 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.500 in the show notes, follow or subscribe wherever 00:51:16.500 --> 00:51:19.000 you're listening to this podcast. We'll speak 00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:19.679 to you next time.