WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.919 Hello and welcome to The Purpose Brief. I'm James 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:07.040 Johnston, your dutiful host. Today we're exploring 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:09.740 the life and legacy of the Victorian philanthropist 00:00:09.740 --> 00:00:13.279 Joseph Rowntree. Many of you recognise the Rowntree 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:16.320 name through chocolate and the association with 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:19.760 industrial history in York. But Joseph Rowntree 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.780 was also a Quaker social reformer who believed 00:00:22.780 --> 00:00:25.239 business success carried a wider responsibility, 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:29.050 not just to generate wealth, but to tackle the 00:00:29.050 --> 00:00:32.329 root causes of poverty. And that belief led him 00:00:32.329 --> 00:00:35.090 in 1904 to establish a series of independent 00:00:35.090 --> 00:00:38.229 trusts dedicated to social reform, including 00:00:38.229 --> 00:00:40.890 the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Joseph 00:00:40.890 --> 00:00:44.229 Rowntree Charitable Trust. His work was carried 00:00:44.229 --> 00:00:47.429 forward by his son, Seabone Rowntree, whose research 00:00:47.429 --> 00:00:50.890 into poverty helped shape very early social policy 00:00:50.890 --> 00:00:54.369 in Britain. Last year marked the centenary of 00:00:54.369 --> 00:00:57.750 Joseph Rowntree's death in 1925, and it was a 00:00:57.750 --> 00:01:00.310 timely moment to reflect on what his ideas about 00:01:00.310 --> 00:01:04.549 purpose, business and social responsibility might 00:01:04.549 --> 00:01:07.709 still teach us today. So it's a real pleasure 00:01:07.709 --> 00:01:10.909 to be able to welcome Nick Smith, who is Executive 00:01:10.909 --> 00:01:14.329 Director at the Rowntree Society, to talk us 00:01:14.329 --> 00:01:19.540 through that fantastic history. Nick, welcome. 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:21.939 It's really good to see you. Thank you. We're 00:01:21.939 --> 00:01:25.939 going to talk through the important story for 00:01:25.939 --> 00:01:29.719 York as a place, which is the Roundtree legacy. 00:01:30.099 --> 00:01:34.159 Could you tell us a little bit about the Society's 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:36.099 work, particularly over the past year, it's been 00:01:36.099 --> 00:01:39.219 an important year for you, and the purpose of 00:01:39.219 --> 00:01:44.129 the Society? Yeah, so the Roundtree Society's 00:01:44.129 --> 00:01:47.689 purpose is to build and share knowledge about 00:01:47.689 --> 00:01:50.689 the histories of the Roundtree family, the Roundtree 00:01:50.689 --> 00:01:54.129 Company and the three Joseph Roundtree Trusts, 00:01:54.129 --> 00:01:57.950 but also to link that history and our increasing 00:01:57.950 --> 00:02:01.109 knowledge of those histories with the kind of 00:02:01.109 --> 00:02:03.930 contemporary relevance of some of the themes 00:02:03.930 --> 00:02:08.400 and ideas that come up out of that history. And 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:12.439 over the last year, over 2025, we've been focusing 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:16.219 on the Joseph Rowntree centenary, which is 100 00:02:16.219 --> 00:02:20.419 years since Joseph Rowntree, who's probably the 00:02:20.419 --> 00:02:23.280 most famous of the Rowntree family. But it's 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.659 100 years since he passed away, since his death. 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:28.840 So we've been trying to encourage people, particularly 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:33.879 in York, but also wider, to engage with his story, 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:37.219 with his life story, but also the things that 00:02:37.219 --> 00:02:40.560 came. from that, the legacy that he left, but 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.580 also other members of his family. Well done to 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:45.819 you and the team on this over the past year. 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:47.979 You know, you've been very busy, so congratulations. 00:02:48.219 --> 00:02:51.099 And it's great to see a lot of visual representation 00:02:51.099 --> 00:02:54.900 of Roundtree's legacy around the city, particularly 00:02:54.900 --> 00:02:57.500 through the summer. So congratulations on that. 00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:02.060 The Roundtrees were synonymous with confectionery 00:03:02.060 --> 00:03:05.039 and chocolate making. They were retailers in 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.780 York for many years. Ultimately, we know them 00:03:07.780 --> 00:03:10.159 as industrialists, reformers and philanthropists. 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.360 But when you look across their history, what 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.780 would you say rooted their sense of social responsibility? 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:19.560 Well, I think the most important thing is that 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:24.840 they were Quakers and their Quaker faith predated 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:27.879 certainly the Brown Tree and Co. confectionery 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:31.000 company that brought them wealth and also fame 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.629 and recognition. But their Quaker faith and the 00:03:34.629 --> 00:03:38.490 tenets that were involved in that really underpinned 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:41.949 everything that they did and their guiding morals, 00:03:42.270 --> 00:03:46.289 and particularly that Quaker tenet of that of 00:03:46.289 --> 00:03:49.889 God being in everyone. So if we kind of think 00:03:49.889 --> 00:03:53.389 about that phrase, if God's in everyone, then 00:03:53.389 --> 00:03:57.949 that guides a certain aspects of equality, of 00:03:57.949 --> 00:04:00.990 not differentiating people, but also wanting 00:04:00.990 --> 00:04:04.169 to... help everyone and to take care of people 00:04:04.169 --> 00:04:08.629 and to do another Quaker phrase would be useful 00:04:08.629 --> 00:04:12.569 work. So do things that contribute to good in 00:04:12.569 --> 00:04:15.849 society and however you'd want to define that. 00:04:15.930 --> 00:04:18.149 But their Quaker faith would guide those kind 00:04:18.149 --> 00:04:20.990 of values. In a way, 100 years isn't that long 00:04:20.990 --> 00:04:24.990 ago in the history of civic history of York. 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.959 Why do you think they still, that Roundtree story 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:33.139 still has a hold on the kind of national imagination 00:04:33.139 --> 00:04:38.199 of what a good business and philanthropists can 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.980 do for their city? Well, I think in York, there's 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:44.519 the Roundtree story and the involvement of the 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.300 Roundtree family. It's so intrinsically linked. 00:04:47.459 --> 00:04:49.800 There are so many connections. There's some very 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.699 obvious ones. The factory, the company, which 00:04:53.699 --> 00:04:57.019 was taken over by Nestle in 1988, but Nestle 00:04:57.019 --> 00:04:59.920 are still a large employer in York. They still 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:04.139 are based on a part of the sites that the original 00:05:04.139 --> 00:05:08.170 Roundtree tree cocoa works factory was and you've 00:05:08.170 --> 00:05:11.490 got the joseph round tree theater you've got 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:14.350 yearsley swimming pool which was built and given 00:05:14.350 --> 00:05:17.389 to the city by the round trees round tree park 00:05:17.389 --> 00:05:21.029 homestead park and all these kind of very obvious 00:05:21.029 --> 00:05:23.910 round tree connections but when you start looking 00:05:23.910 --> 00:05:26.209 into the history of the round tree family and 00:05:26.209 --> 00:05:29.160 their connections that they had in york There 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.300 are so many connections that are less obvious. 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:35.699 And a lot of the institutions that exist in York 00:05:35.699 --> 00:05:40.060 have had some Roundtree connection or involvement 00:05:40.060 --> 00:05:43.319 in them, including the foundation of the University 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:47.759 of York, York Explore Central Library, a long 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:51.579 history of accessible lifelong education in the 00:05:51.579 --> 00:05:55.810 city. And I think that that not only... Or all 00:05:55.810 --> 00:05:58.550 those institutions and different aspects of city 00:05:58.550 --> 00:06:01.730 life connected with the Round Trees. But I also 00:06:01.730 --> 00:06:04.389 think they set an example. And so there were 00:06:04.389 --> 00:06:06.629 other people that would have been inspired by 00:06:06.629 --> 00:06:10.370 them to take that on. And some of them worked 00:06:10.370 --> 00:06:12.490 very closely with the Round Trees. There's a 00:06:12.490 --> 00:06:15.350 figure in York history who's very important called 00:06:15.350 --> 00:06:18.350 J .B. Morrell. He worked with the Round Trees 00:06:18.350 --> 00:06:20.709 and was friends with the family very closely. 00:06:20.889 --> 00:06:23.850 So even when you extend it to the kind of those 00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:26.860 people. They are just intrinsically linked with 00:06:26.860 --> 00:06:30.519 York. And I've often wondered if that and other 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.959 Quaker involvement, because there are three Quaker 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:38.060 meeting houses in York, which is quite a concentration 00:06:38.060 --> 00:06:42.839 of Quakers. And so that link of both. the Quakers 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.819 and the Round Trees kind of sets a tone for a 00:06:45.819 --> 00:06:47.920 lot of things that happen in the city. It's really 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.779 interesting because you see a similar model up 00:06:50.779 --> 00:06:53.459 at the train line in Darlington where Quakers 00:06:53.459 --> 00:06:56.199 were very involved in industrial revolution and 00:06:56.199 --> 00:07:00.800 that kind of regeneration and prosperity in what 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:03.959 was a small town at the time. Just unpack that 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:06.829 for me a little bit around... the role of quaker 00:07:06.829 --> 00:07:09.569 faith because there's a strong link between philanthropy 00:07:09.569 --> 00:07:13.269 and religious faith i think historically in different 00:07:13.269 --> 00:07:16.379 cases but what are your reflections on that I 00:07:16.379 --> 00:07:18.779 mean, yeah, the Rowntree family, their Quaker 00:07:18.779 --> 00:07:21.800 faith was really important. And different individuals 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.000 of the family engaged with it in different ways. 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.860 Some engaged with it really deeply. John Wilhelm 00:07:28.860 --> 00:07:32.879 Rowntree, who's a son of the famous Joseph Rowntree, 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:38.079 he had a huge impact on liberalisation of the 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:41.620 Quaker faith and a lot of what Quakers are involved 00:07:41.620 --> 00:07:44.480 in now, particularly that social responsibility. 00:07:45.610 --> 00:07:48.389 they tend to be involved in. A lot of that comes 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:52.689 from the changes that John Wilhelm Roundtree 00:07:52.689 --> 00:07:55.850 inspired in the Quaker faith, and that's internationally. 00:07:56.110 --> 00:07:59.709 That's a huge impact. But there are others such 00:07:59.709 --> 00:08:02.470 as Seabone Roundtree, who very much was a Quaker, 00:08:02.569 --> 00:08:06.310 would attend their weekly meetings, which is 00:08:06.310 --> 00:08:09.990 their equivalent of a church service, and also 00:08:09.990 --> 00:08:13.089 taught that the Quakers have this idea of an 00:08:13.089 --> 00:08:16.230 adult school, or certainly did have in the 19th 00:08:16.230 --> 00:08:19.170 and 20th century. And the adult school was to 00:08:19.170 --> 00:08:23.170 provide education to poorer communities, lifelong 00:08:23.170 --> 00:08:27.209 education, initially around kind of Bible study 00:08:27.209 --> 00:08:29.930 and learning, Christian messaging, so that they 00:08:29.930 --> 00:08:33.509 could engage with religion. But if people can't 00:08:33.509 --> 00:08:35.509 read and write, then you've got to teach them 00:08:35.509 --> 00:08:38.370 to read and write. And in York, the Roundtree's 00:08:38.370 --> 00:08:40.809 were very much involved in the adult school movement. 00:08:41.190 --> 00:08:44.639 Many of them taught classes at... the adult schools 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:48.279 and as time went on those classes could be on 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.480 all sorts of topics and Seabone Roundtree who 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.600 I'm sure we might talk a bit more about he taught 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:57.120 at an adult school he attended Quaker meetings 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:01.679 but was perhaps less involved in changing Quaker 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:05.740 philosophy and approaches than other members 00:09:05.740 --> 00:09:08.500 of the family so even for those who weren't as 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:13.120 involved in Quakerism fully It still guided him 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:17.960 and he would use it as a kind of roadmap, I guess, 00:09:17.980 --> 00:09:21.019 of when he comes across problems or is trying 00:09:21.019 --> 00:09:23.659 to do different things in the companies or with 00:09:23.659 --> 00:09:26.700 the Roundtree Trust that we'll talk about. The 00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:30.840 kind of underlying tenets is that Quaker faith 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.200 and the things that are tied up in that. I mean, 00:09:34.220 --> 00:09:36.759 Joseph talked quite openly about the dangers 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:41.679 of poverty. power ignorance more than a century 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:43.980 ago he talked about you know he was pioneering 00:09:43.980 --> 00:09:46.019 and the family were pioneering in terms of their 00:09:46.019 --> 00:09:48.340 approach to education lifelong skills which is 00:09:48.340 --> 00:09:52.100 very topical at the moment how far ahead was 00:09:52.100 --> 00:09:54.259 he of his time when you compare him to other 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:57.100 similar characters in you know across the world 00:09:57.100 --> 00:09:59.340 at that time i always find it an interesting 00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:01.840 kind of as someone who could probably be classed 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.649 as a historian this concept of people being out 00:10:05.649 --> 00:10:08.990 of time i think it's interesting but kind of 00:10:08.990 --> 00:10:13.470 can be problematic um he was very much of his 00:10:13.470 --> 00:10:17.889 time the way society was while he was alive is 00:10:17.889 --> 00:10:21.250 what was driving him in how he interacted with 00:10:21.250 --> 00:10:23.129 it and the things he thought needed changing 00:10:23.129 --> 00:10:27.419 or improving but also Even at the time, it's 00:10:27.419 --> 00:10:29.759 interesting that the way the question you've 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:31.559 asked is saying that maybe he was ahead of his 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.879 time, that when he passed away, J .B. Morrell, 00:10:36.059 --> 00:10:39.539 who I've already mentioned, said something about 00:10:39.539 --> 00:10:42.799 that perhaps he was out of his time in a way 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:46.279 that he was from a previous time and that he 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:51.019 held older ideals that were perhaps more, I guess 00:10:51.019 --> 00:10:53.320 what we would think of as more progressive than 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:55.899 what was going on during his lifetime. time so 00:10:55.899 --> 00:10:58.659 I think there is something about him I guess 00:10:58.659 --> 00:11:01.820 less yeah difficult to say whether he was ahead 00:11:01.820 --> 00:11:04.480 of his time but something about him being out 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.759 of his time and certainly a lot of his ideas 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:10.639 were more radical than perhaps the mainstream 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:14.139 ideas that were being taught at the time and 00:11:14.139 --> 00:11:18.149 that often is attached to Joseph But you could 00:11:18.149 --> 00:11:20.809 also perhaps attach that to other members of 00:11:20.809 --> 00:11:23.090 his family, particularly his son, Seabone Rantry, 00:11:23.210 --> 00:11:26.769 as well. He was very influential in those circles 00:11:26.769 --> 00:11:29.870 and influencing what we would call now policy 00:11:29.870 --> 00:11:34.549 and politicians around those big issues. What 00:11:34.549 --> 00:11:37.570 was the thinking around individuals who were 00:11:37.570 --> 00:11:40.409 his peers? Their entry family, and particularly 00:11:40.409 --> 00:11:44.110 Joseph, were very much clued into Quaker business 00:11:44.110 --> 00:11:48.769 networks. Historically, Quakers were excluded 00:11:48.769 --> 00:11:53.210 from certain positions in civic society, etc. 00:11:53.669 --> 00:11:56.570 They weren't able to go to most, if not all, 00:11:56.649 --> 00:12:00.409 universities. And part of that would be about 00:12:00.409 --> 00:12:03.690 there's always been a kind of Quaker distrust 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:06.879 trust or not wanting to take oaths so if you've 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:10.179 got to swear an oath to something that has never 00:12:10.179 --> 00:12:14.200 really sat comfortably with Quakerism and the 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:16.379 fact that it's non -conformist Christian whereas 00:12:16.379 --> 00:12:19.440 certain things were only open if you were Anglican 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.580 or other forms of Christianity. But what that 00:12:22.580 --> 00:12:24.980 meant historically is that a lot of Quakers would 00:12:24.980 --> 00:12:28.379 turn to business and would become fairly self 00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:31.080 -sufficient in their own communities. So often 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.600 a lot of their networks and a lot of their friends 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:36.720 and their business circles were other Quakers 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.620 and the Roundtree's were very much tied into 00:12:39.620 --> 00:12:42.669 that network. And what that meant is they are 00:12:42.669 --> 00:12:45.730 discussing the kind of ideas about how to do 00:12:45.730 --> 00:12:48.830 business, but also the social challenges that 00:12:48.830 --> 00:12:51.690 they were engaging with. They are discussing 00:12:51.690 --> 00:12:54.870 those with, for example, the Cadbury family or 00:12:54.870 --> 00:12:58.029 within these Quaker circles. So in some ways, 00:12:58.049 --> 00:13:00.029 they are part of that. They are not necessarily 00:13:00.029 --> 00:13:03.070 separate. And it's doing that wider Quaker movement 00:13:03.070 --> 00:13:06.649 a disservice to look at the Round Trees as unique. 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.559 But I guess from outside of those Quaker circles, 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.039 that they are doing things more differently. 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:18.500 And certainly Joseph and then his children and 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:22.539 downwards, they are engaging much more with the 00:13:22.539 --> 00:13:25.480 wider world. And that's partly because of how 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:28.860 much more wealth they got through their business 00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:32.769 activities than they'd have had before. It is 00:13:32.769 --> 00:13:35.889 important to note that Joseph's father, who's 00:13:35.889 --> 00:13:38.610 also called Joseph, we often call him Joseph 00:13:38.610 --> 00:13:42.429 Senior, he moved to York from Scarborough. The 00:13:42.429 --> 00:13:44.610 origins of the Rowntree family are much more 00:13:44.610 --> 00:13:47.909 North Yorkshire Scarborough way than York. Joseph 00:13:47.909 --> 00:13:52.070 Senior moved to York in 1822 and he bought a 00:13:52.070 --> 00:13:55.470 grocery business, a grocer's shop and set up 00:13:55.470 --> 00:13:58.149 business there. His father had a grocer's business 00:13:58.149 --> 00:14:00.450 in Scarborough, so he's following the family 00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:04.700 business. As he sets that up, it becomes like 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:08.379 it's not just a grocer's. They start buying and 00:14:08.379 --> 00:14:11.419 leasing rooms to the back and buildings either 00:14:11.419 --> 00:14:15.440 side of the shop and set up a soup kitchen to 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:17.940 help people who are struggling to feed themselves. 00:14:18.379 --> 00:14:22.419 They set up an adult school and they have apprentices 00:14:22.419 --> 00:14:25.600 that are, you know, the family lives at the shop, 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:28.179 but they also have apprentices. And one of them 00:14:28.179 --> 00:14:30.340 included, I think, one of the Cadbury family, 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:34.159 George Cadbury. but you've got this kind of physical 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.779 space that's a business but it's also a home 00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:41.039 and it's also where these social and civic things 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.220 are happening all in the one place and that's 00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:47.940 before they become internationally famous in 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:50.960 their business and the wealth that that brings 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.580 you know it is a modest grocers to start with 00:14:54.580 --> 00:14:57.200 but they're already doing this stuff and i think 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.970 that's important I don't think they saw a distinction 00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:02.850 between their, kind of what they would see as 00:15:02.850 --> 00:15:05.909 their Quaker activities, as their kind of civic 00:15:05.909 --> 00:15:09.110 responsibilities, as their dealing with social 00:15:09.110 --> 00:15:12.309 challenges and their business. I think for them, 00:15:12.309 --> 00:15:15.190 it was all kind of just part of the same thing. 00:15:15.590 --> 00:15:20.470 Do you think that the Roundtrees were the people 00:15:20.470 --> 00:15:25.690 who piloted corporate purpose long before? corporate 00:15:25.690 --> 00:15:29.070 purpose existed was it about an ethos that's 00:15:29.070 --> 00:15:31.590 part of the business that was my first question 00:15:31.590 --> 00:15:33.470 and the second question is could you sort of 00:15:33.470 --> 00:15:36.710 say a little bit about their trajectory in in 00:15:36.710 --> 00:15:40.629 terms of wealth and success and what did it look 00:15:40.629 --> 00:15:43.950 like at the height of of roundtree's business 00:15:43.950 --> 00:15:48.149 success whether they are certainly i think they're 00:15:48.149 --> 00:15:52.710 probably pioneers in this kind of concept of 00:15:52.710 --> 00:15:55.980 business purpose I don't know if they'd have 00:15:55.980 --> 00:15:58.259 necessarily seen it in those terms. And they're 00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:00.500 not the only ones doing it. You know, as I said, 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:04.600 certainly other Quaker families and other people 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:06.980 who were similarly minded at the time were doing 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:11.759 similar things. They certainly had allies. They 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.480 were very good at bringing people to them. So 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.080 people who were, even people who weren't necessarily 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:19.759 Quakers, but perhaps thought in similar ways, 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.600 they would often bring them to them, whether 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.460 that was to give them jobs in the company or 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:29.639 whether it was just a useful connection to have 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:34.019 the kind of trajectory is that you have as I 00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:38.200 mentioned earlier Joseph Ramtree senior in 1822 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:42.700 sets up the grocers in in York his family then 00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:45.360 particularly his sons although it is worth mentioning 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.200 that the women in the Ramtree family were often 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.320 also involved in different ways and they're kind 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.279 of often minimized or written out of the history 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.179 but if you start looking then you get like hints 00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:01.899 that they are also involved in in some of the 00:17:01.899 --> 00:17:05.400 activities that are going on But it was Joseph 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.519 Rantry's senior son, Henry Isaac, who does his 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.660 apprenticeship with the Took family in York. 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:15.579 The Took family were another important Quaker 00:17:15.579 --> 00:17:19.380 family in York and are probably best known for 00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:23.200 establishing the retreat mental health hospital 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.859 and pioneered more kind of humane treatment for 00:17:27.859 --> 00:17:30.039 people struggling with mental health issues. 00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:33.529 And the Took and Roundtree families knew each 00:17:33.529 --> 00:17:36.309 other. They were close and good friends. The 00:17:36.309 --> 00:17:38.869 Took family also had a grocery business. And 00:17:38.869 --> 00:17:41.950 part of that, they had a small confectionery 00:17:41.950 --> 00:17:44.750 manufacturing that they could then sell in their 00:17:44.750 --> 00:17:48.009 grocery business. And Henry Isaac Roundtree, 00:17:48.089 --> 00:17:50.690 who's Joseph Roundtree's senior son, does his 00:17:50.690 --> 00:17:54.309 apprenticeship with the Took family. And then 00:17:54.309 --> 00:18:00.900 later on in the 1860s, he buys... the tooke family 00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:04.079 confectionery business and that's the start of 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:07.160 what becomes roundtree and co as the confectioners 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.299 so for a certain point you had the roundtree 00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:12.779 grocery business and you had the confectionery 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:16.970 business and Henry Isaac initially is struggling 00:18:16.970 --> 00:18:19.109 with the confectionery business. He's not doing 00:18:19.109 --> 00:18:23.390 very well. So Joseph Rowntree Sr. asks the famous 00:18:23.390 --> 00:18:26.230 Joseph Rowntree to go and help his brother with 00:18:26.230 --> 00:18:29.109 the confectionery business. And it doesn't take 00:18:29.109 --> 00:18:32.390 off immediately. The product that really kind 00:18:32.390 --> 00:18:36.329 of makes it profitable is the invention of fruit 00:18:36.329 --> 00:18:42.430 pastels in the early 1880s. And fruit pastels 00:18:42.430 --> 00:18:45.680 become so successful. that that launches the 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:50.319 company. And within 10 years or so, they are... 00:18:50.809 --> 00:18:54.509 able to build a new factory which is the haxby 00:18:54.509 --> 00:18:59.430 road coco works and this they're able to design 00:18:59.430 --> 00:19:03.970 to their own ideas and so it's a garden factory 00:19:03.970 --> 00:19:07.650 as part of this factory they have gardeners it's 00:19:07.650 --> 00:19:11.089 in nice grounds there's big windows to let light 00:19:11.089 --> 00:19:15.289 in and they also start setting up out of work 00:19:15.289 --> 00:19:18.490 activities so various social clubs or hobbies 00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:20.789 clubs i always think of it a little bit like 00:19:20.789 --> 00:19:24.349 university societies. So if you've got an interest 00:19:24.349 --> 00:19:26.609 in a hobby, you'd be able to go to the factory 00:19:26.609 --> 00:19:29.250 and see if you could set up a club. So there 00:19:29.250 --> 00:19:31.890 were facilities built into the factory for those 00:19:31.890 --> 00:19:36.009 clubs and also sports clubs as well. It just 00:19:36.009 --> 00:19:39.769 becomes a community. It's not just a workplace. 00:19:39.990 --> 00:19:42.009 And that is built into it. They have education 00:19:42.009 --> 00:19:46.009 lessons. But they also are starting to pioneer 00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:51.089 workers' welfare things. So in 1896, they institute 00:19:51.089 --> 00:19:55.309 an eight -hour working day. They set up medical 00:19:55.309 --> 00:19:59.329 provision at the factory. So in 1904 to 1905, 00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:03.950 they have a factory doctor with nurses and other 00:20:03.950 --> 00:20:07.130 support staff. They have a dentist at the factory. 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.579 They set up a pension scheme in 1906. They introduced 00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:15.220 the five -day working week in 1919. They have 00:20:15.220 --> 00:20:18.799 a structure of workplace democracy with various 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.460 workers, councils, departmental ones that feed 00:20:22.460 --> 00:20:26.960 up to a central... council that workers and management 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.400 are both on and that has a certain amount of 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.680 decision making power and the important thing 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:35.400 with that is that women workers are involved 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:38.599 in this workplace democracy and it means that 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:41.240 their women were able to vote on factory matters 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.759 before they were able to vote in general elections. 00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:48.160 That was incredibly pioneering for the time that 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:52.319 you would have a workplace but and a very industrial 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.599 workplace but one that was making nice things, 00:20:55.819 --> 00:20:59.799 albeit, and people from different generations 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:01.539 that are linked to York will always remember 00:21:01.539 --> 00:21:05.940 that and the smells of the city that went with 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:09.180 that. There's a lot of nostalgia for it, as you 00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:13.180 said, and that kind of era. But actually that 00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:16.200 approach to business, they didn't need to do 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:19.380 that, but it was always part of who they were, 00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:23.500 their identity. They obviously... made wealth 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:26.640 from it and that wealth went directly into a 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:28.680 lot of the charitable trusts that still exist 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.759 today joseph ranchi himself became quite uncomfortable 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:35.960 with the amount of wealth that was being generated 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.900 by the business and and for the family he stated 00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:42.880 that he thought that wealth was best spent within 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.299 one person's lifetime so you needed you know 00:21:46.299 --> 00:21:50.049 enough and the family We don't want to underplay 00:21:50.049 --> 00:21:52.809 the enjoyment and the quality of life that the 00:21:52.809 --> 00:21:56.109 family were able to get from this wealth. But 00:21:56.109 --> 00:21:58.250 at the same time, there was an uncomfortableness. 00:21:58.950 --> 00:22:03.630 And Joseph was already interested in issues around 00:22:03.630 --> 00:22:06.289 poverty and done some of his own research into 00:22:06.289 --> 00:22:10.490 the causes of poverty. But his son, Seabone Roundtree... 00:22:11.049 --> 00:22:14.630 Really took that further and did some pioneering 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:19.289 research into poverty in York and examining what 00:22:19.289 --> 00:22:23.829 causes poverty. And his conclusions from his 00:22:23.829 --> 00:22:26.750 book that's called Poverty, A Study of a Town 00:22:26.750 --> 00:22:30.809 Life. It was published in 1901. And the points 00:22:30.809 --> 00:22:34.450 that he was making is that most poverty is mainly 00:22:34.450 --> 00:22:38.990 caused by people not having enough money to cover 00:22:38.990 --> 00:22:41.660 their basic quality of life. life and that was 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:44.299 from low wages that people weren't being paid 00:22:44.299 --> 00:22:47.880 enough. to have a better quality of life. And 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:51.079 also that at different times in people's lives, 00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:54.819 they would move in and out of more severe forms 00:22:54.819 --> 00:22:57.819 of poverty. For example, you know, young family 00:22:57.819 --> 00:23:00.099 with children who are having to pay to bring 00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:03.160 the children up are going to struggle more than 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:05.400 when the children are of an age where they can 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:08.420 go to work themselves. And again, in old age 00:23:08.420 --> 00:23:11.619 where people aren't able to work either at all 00:23:11.619 --> 00:23:14.839 or as much as they used to. they would then be 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:18.000 in more poverty. And Seabone was making the point 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.200 that because of these cycles, it's very difficult 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:24.680 for people to permanently escape poverty. So 00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:27.140 while Seabone's doing this, he's also working 00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:30.160 at the factory and at the company. And so the 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:34.920 two are connected. And what Joseph does, you 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:39.299 know, beginning of the 20th century is... So 00:23:39.299 --> 00:23:42.380 that they can do something with this wealth is 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:46.059 he sets up the three Joseph Rowntree trusts and 00:23:46.059 --> 00:23:49.279 he sets them up in his 1904. I think it's December 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.140 1904. He writes this memorandum and the three 00:23:53.140 --> 00:23:56.819 trusts in their current formation are known as 00:23:56.819 --> 00:24:00.559 the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which also has 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.160 the Joseph Rowntree Housing Trust as part of 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:06.039 its organization. The Joseph Rowntree Reform 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:09.160 Trust and the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust. 00:24:09.740 --> 00:24:12.920 They each have their own things that they focus 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:16.440 on and they were set up to do different things. 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:19.819 But in the setting up of them, Joseph says that 00:24:19.819 --> 00:24:23.660 as time moves on, as the challenges facing society 00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:26.980 change, that they should be allowed to look at 00:24:26.980 --> 00:24:31.079 new ways of dealing with the social issues that 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:35.220 he was highlighting. But effectively, the trusts 00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:38.279 become the majority shareholders in the company. 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:43.579 They remain so for many decades. I think by the 00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:46.660 end of the 1960s, they were no longer majority 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:50.579 shareholders. And certainly by the time Nestle 00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:54.140 bought the company in 1988, they either had already 00:24:54.140 --> 00:24:58.019 sold all their shares or had very little shares 00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:01.349 left in the company. What that meant effectively 00:25:01.349 --> 00:25:03.869 is that the wealth that would normally go to 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:06.390 the family, the profits that the company would 00:25:06.390 --> 00:25:10.529 make, that ends up going to the trusts. If you 00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:13.569 think by the early 20th century, the Roundtree 00:25:13.569 --> 00:25:16.130 family were effectively the equivalent of certainly 00:25:16.130 --> 00:25:20.190 millionaires today, potentially. billionaires 00:25:20.190 --> 00:25:22.690 but I you know that's that's quite difficult 00:25:22.690 --> 00:25:24.730 to quantify because we live in a very different 00:25:24.730 --> 00:25:29.589 society now to to what was then after that generation 00:25:29.589 --> 00:25:33.390 that's below Joseph individual family members 00:25:33.390 --> 00:25:35.990 didn't have that kind of level of wealth and 00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:38.670 that's effectively because that wealth was either 00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:42.029 redistributed within the company and to staff 00:25:42.029 --> 00:25:44.640 through things like the profit share scheme all 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.920 went to the trusts. And certainly early on, the 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.640 board members of the company and the board members 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:54.049 of each of the trusts... are often the same people. 00:25:54.109 --> 00:25:57.269 They are often Roundtree family members or close 00:25:57.269 --> 00:26:01.289 associates. The money, but also assets, and for 00:26:01.289 --> 00:26:03.990 example, the trusts would often have board meetings 00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:08.869 in the factory, but even family homes. So Seabone's 00:26:08.869 --> 00:26:12.950 home, which was called the homestead that he 00:26:12.950 --> 00:26:16.700 had built for him. is now the headquarters of 00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:20.160 the JRF and other buildings on the site are headquarters 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.539 of the other two trusts, the Charitable Trust 00:26:22.539 --> 00:26:25.920 and the Reform Trust. But he also gave part of 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.480 the land and his buildings to the Youth Hostel 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:32.579 Association. So the Youth Hostel in York was 00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:36.660 Seabone's property. But you get this kind of 00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:40.339 moving around of assets between the company, 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:44.839 the trusts and the family. As things change going 00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:49.099 later into the 20th century, that has to change 00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:52.599 for mainly legal reasons, but also the family 00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:57.599 gets larger, disperses, moves away and are less 00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:59.880 involved, certainly in the company. I know there's 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.259 a family members were involved in the trust for 00:27:03.259 --> 00:27:06.210 longer than that. were the company but you do 00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:08.569 get this kind of fading out of family members 00:27:08.569 --> 00:27:10.690 and the family gets so large if you think about 00:27:10.690 --> 00:27:14.170 each generation having different children it 00:27:14.170 --> 00:27:16.970 doesn't become the same kind of close -knit family 00:27:16.970 --> 00:27:21.759 firm if you like or or working together But if 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.259 we're thinking about the kind of legacy of where 00:27:24.259 --> 00:27:27.980 is the Roundtree wealth gone now, it effectively 00:27:27.980 --> 00:27:31.519 sits with the trusts and the work that that wealth, 00:27:31.660 --> 00:27:34.859 they reinvest. That's where they get their money 00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:37.819 from in order to be able to do their work. The 00:27:37.819 --> 00:27:40.940 niceness of the business of making sweet treats 00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:44.319 and all the things that went with that. But there's 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.119 a downside to that industrial and colonial context. 00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:52.680 And as Roundtrees grew, as a big conglomerate, 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:55.099 really. What reflections have you got around 00:27:55.099 --> 00:27:58.400 that legacy, just in simple terms of where chocolate 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:03.619 comes from? It is always worth remembering and 00:28:03.619 --> 00:28:09.079 keeping in mind that our society is now, has 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:14.220 kind of come out of a colonial system past that 00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:17.500 has certain structures that have a very long 00:28:17.500 --> 00:28:21.079 tail. Some of them are still with us. but certainly 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:24.980 the success of the roundtree business was from 00:28:24.980 --> 00:28:27.960 that you know the peak of that kind of colonial 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:32.539 british empire period and within that are issues 00:28:32.539 --> 00:28:37.980 around either slavery or other unfree labor practices 00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:41.279 that allowed you know certainly if we're thinking 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:43.799 about chocolate and the raw materials the cocoa 00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:48.200 where that was grown those materials would have 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.630 in the the 18th century and into the early 19th 00:28:52.630 --> 00:28:55.190 century, that they would have been produced by 00:28:55.190 --> 00:28:58.609 slaves. So the Roundtree Society did some research 00:28:58.609 --> 00:29:02.029 into this to see how we could work out where 00:29:02.029 --> 00:29:05.259 the Roundtree story... fits into that. There 00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:08.299 is still a lot unknown, so we've started to explore 00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:11.039 it, but we've very much only scratched the surface. 00:29:11.500 --> 00:29:13.480 You know, they would have been linked to this, 00:29:13.539 --> 00:29:17.279 whether that's directly or indirectly. It is 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.880 important to note that we have found no evidence 00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:23.269 that the Roundtree family owned slaves. And there 00:29:23.269 --> 00:29:26.789 are two kind of key reasons for that. One is 00:29:26.789 --> 00:29:29.509 the time period that the Round Trees really got 00:29:29.509 --> 00:29:32.549 their wealth that may have enabled them to own 00:29:32.549 --> 00:29:36.150 slaves, had it been earlier, was after the abolition 00:29:36.150 --> 00:29:39.349 of slavery within the British Empire. And the 00:29:39.349 --> 00:29:41.589 second one is that Quakers were very much at 00:29:41.589 --> 00:29:44.730 the forefront of the abolitionist movement. And 00:29:44.730 --> 00:29:47.789 so it's probably less likely that they would 00:29:47.789 --> 00:29:51.250 have wanted to have owned slaves. However, there 00:29:51.250 --> 00:29:53.450 were Quakers who, did own slaves so they can't 00:29:53.450 --> 00:29:55.930 just rule it out on that you know quakers were 00:29:55.930 --> 00:29:58.549 talking about issues around slavery and whether 00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:02.410 this was a morally correct thing to have earlier 00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:05.109 than most other people so there is that strain 00:30:05.109 --> 00:30:08.269 within quakerism but they have got you know they 00:30:08.269 --> 00:30:10.809 the businesses both the toque business and the 00:30:10.809 --> 00:30:13.509 roundtree business were grocers they would have 00:30:13.509 --> 00:30:16.509 been selling products they're part of that you 00:30:16.509 --> 00:30:20.970 know colonial market of products that that also 00:30:20.970 --> 00:30:24.710 involve people as the round tree company got 00:30:24.710 --> 00:30:29.849 bigger they made decisions in the early the very 00:30:29.849 --> 00:30:34.990 late 19th century early 20th century to buy estates 00:30:34.990 --> 00:30:38.789 in the caribbean that were former slave plantations 00:30:38.789 --> 00:30:43.369 we haven't yet established the contractual terms 00:30:43.369 --> 00:30:46.609 of the people working on those estates but what 00:30:46.609 --> 00:30:50.930 we do know is that in the early 20th century, 00:30:51.109 --> 00:30:56.319 there were nine white managers. overseeing hundreds 00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:02.880 of black workers and around 100 or so what they 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.819 called then East Indian workers. And the black 00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:08.500 workers on the plantations are very likely to 00:31:08.500 --> 00:31:12.039 have been the descendants of slaves who, once 00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:15.920 slavery was abolished, the slave owners were 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:19.660 given compensation, but the slaves kind of didn't 00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:22.630 have anything. And so the options that were open 00:31:22.630 --> 00:31:25.910 to them often were to carry on working there. 00:31:26.069 --> 00:31:28.690 And that's likely, that's where those workers 00:31:28.690 --> 00:31:32.910 came from. The East Indian workers, after slavery 00:31:32.910 --> 00:31:37.009 was abolished, there became a system of indentured 00:31:37.009 --> 00:31:42.829 labor where people were often forced either directly 00:31:42.829 --> 00:31:47.430 or through circumstances to sign contracts where 00:31:47.430 --> 00:31:50.490 they would go from India and similar countries 00:31:50.490 --> 00:31:53.990 around there to places like the Caribbean to 00:31:53.990 --> 00:31:59.690 work for free for a set period of time. One of 00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:02.069 the issues with this is, first of all, the choices 00:32:02.069 --> 00:32:04.650 that they would have had whether to take up this 00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:07.730 contract or not. But secondly, when their contract 00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:10.809 finished, sometimes they were given transport 00:32:10.809 --> 00:32:14.049 back home. Sometimes they weren't. But if you 00:32:14.049 --> 00:32:16.589 can imagine, they won't have built any wealth 00:32:16.589 --> 00:32:19.910 up. They've been working for free and probably 00:32:19.910 --> 00:32:23.670 in pretty poor conditions. Again, we haven't 00:32:23.670 --> 00:32:26.789 seen the actual contractual terms that round 00:32:26.789 --> 00:32:29.309 trees used, but the fact that they had what's 00:32:29.309 --> 00:32:32.150 described as East Indian workers on these plantations. 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.680 suggests that there is indentured labour going 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:39.339 on or that they are indentured labourers whose 00:32:39.339 --> 00:32:41.819 contract have come to an end. And again, like 00:32:41.819 --> 00:32:45.279 the freed slaves, their options to move away 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:50.980 from the plantations are limited. We know only 00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:53.559 a little bit about the conditions on the plantations, 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:56.920 but what we do know is that they would be, I 00:32:56.920 --> 00:32:59.819 guess, a far cry from the conditions of the workers 00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:02.960 in York and all those things. that are being 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:05.599 provided by the Roundtree family that we talked 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:09.549 about earlier. That kind of... workers' welfare 00:33:09.549 --> 00:33:13.769 didn't extend to their Caribbean plantations. 00:33:13.910 --> 00:33:18.369 On the other hand, we do know that Joseph Rowntree 00:33:18.369 --> 00:33:22.390 was giving regular donations to charities and 00:33:22.390 --> 00:33:25.950 organisations that were trying to support slaves 00:33:25.950 --> 00:33:29.029 or indigenous people around the world. So it's 00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:30.809 something that the Rowntree family were aware 00:33:30.809 --> 00:33:34.029 of and were supporting. They were involving themselves 00:33:34.029 --> 00:33:37.400 with these knotty issues at the time. Just going 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:42.039 back to what Joseph Rowntree did for York and 00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:46.720 the city around housing and and alleviating poverty, 00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:49.279 which was a big driver for them. One of the key 00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:52.599 things he did was establishing the village of 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:55.500 New Ayerswick, which was designed to provide 00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:59.980 good quality, affordable housing for working 00:33:59.980 --> 00:34:02.559 people in York. I think Joseph's phrasing is 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.519 something like people who earn their living through 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:08.039 the work, through their hands or their minds. 00:34:09.210 --> 00:34:11.989 often people think it was a village set up just 00:34:11.989 --> 00:34:14.750 for workers at the factory and that's that isn't 00:34:14.750 --> 00:34:19.110 the case he wanted it to be a you know available 00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:22.670 for kind of anyone in york to to live there uh 00:34:22.670 --> 00:34:25.630 it still exists today it is still you know managed 00:34:25.630 --> 00:34:28.409 by the joseph randry housing trust which is a 00:34:28.409 --> 00:34:31.010 you know a kind of descendant organization of 00:34:31.010 --> 00:34:33.329 the original organization which was called the 00:34:33.329 --> 00:34:35.789 joseph randry village trust and that's also what 00:34:35.789 --> 00:34:39.389 the joseph randry foundation of growing out of 00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:43.400 it was very pioneering. There are other kind 00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.239 of model villages and these garden cities ideas 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:50.519 that were going on at the time. But I think what's 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.780 really key with Joseph is that he'd been thinking 00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:57.460 about these issues and obviously his son Seabone, 00:34:57.539 --> 00:35:00.440 you know, a lot of his investigation had been 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:04.530 about poverty. So they're doing this. pioneering 00:35:04.530 --> 00:35:07.090 sociological research, if you like, that then 00:35:07.090 --> 00:35:12.269 is feeding into a kind of very practical solutions. 00:35:12.610 --> 00:35:15.869 And they were, as a family, being practical and 00:35:15.869 --> 00:35:18.409 trying to do things themselves was really important. 00:35:18.650 --> 00:35:21.989 They didn't just want it to be an academic exercise 00:35:21.989 --> 00:35:25.070 or a campaign. And that's not to say they didn't 00:35:25.070 --> 00:35:28.369 do those things. But to create this village, 00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:32.260 to provide better quality housing. And Joseph 00:35:32.260 --> 00:35:34.679 was at pains to say it's not just the housing, 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.920 it's also a community. The way it's laid out 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.940 was designed for people to be able to speak to 00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:44.460 each other, to kind of build community. And quite 00:35:44.460 --> 00:35:47.320 early on, they built what is known as the Folk 00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:49.800 Hall, which I guess is like a community centre 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:52.440 building. That still exists, it's still used 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:56.840 today. And Joseph was adamant that they should 00:35:56.840 --> 00:35:59.530 set up a village council. And there's echoes 00:35:59.530 --> 00:36:02.230 here of that works council that they set up at 00:36:02.230 --> 00:36:04.829 the factory. This is for residents who live in 00:36:04.829 --> 00:36:07.690 the village to get together, to make decisions 00:36:07.690 --> 00:36:09.909 about what they should do in their community, 00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:13.590 how the community should be run, to feed that 00:36:13.590 --> 00:36:17.050 to the trust. But sometimes it was things like 00:36:17.050 --> 00:36:19.570 putting on theatre production. And they were 00:36:19.570 --> 00:36:22.489 very much supported in that by his vision, but 00:36:22.489 --> 00:36:25.150 also practically by having buildings such as 00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:28.969 the Focal, which could be used as a theatre or 00:36:28.969 --> 00:36:33.570 meeting rooms. It is worth mentioning on this 00:36:33.570 --> 00:36:36.010 that the Roundtree family, although they were 00:36:36.010 --> 00:36:38.570 trying to do things, practical things in York, 00:36:38.809 --> 00:36:41.880 and they were also encouraging others. in the 00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:45.119 country to do similar, such as Seabone was often 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.579 talking to other businesses and other business 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:50.179 leaders to try and get them to implement similar 00:36:50.179 --> 00:36:52.719 things. They were also talking to government 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:56.219 and lobbying governments and trying to, you know, 00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:58.079 they weren't people who just thought, oh, businesses 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.639 should provide this. They were also saying, like, 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:03.539 there's only so much we can do as a business 00:37:03.539 --> 00:37:07.079 here that some of these things should be provided 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.139 by governments. That was a key part of what they 00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:12.880 were lobbying for. They were involved in politics. 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:17.539 Joseph Ranch is a founder of York Liberal Association, 00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.119 which is now the local Liberal Democrat group. 00:37:22.460 --> 00:37:26.260 Joseph founded that. The Reform Trust is set 00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:30.460 up and is still a limited company. And the work 00:37:30.460 --> 00:37:33.059 that they do is around political campaigning 00:37:33.059 --> 00:37:38.599 and was set up as such by Joseph. And Seabone 00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:41.780 himself was very much involved. Involved in government 00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:45.940 initiatives, he became friends with Lloyd George 00:37:45.940 --> 00:37:48.960 and Lloyd George brought him in as an advisor 00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.579 on various government committees and had connections 00:37:52.579 --> 00:37:55.139 with government. And we've uncovered evidence 00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:59.619 of Seabone writing to Lloyd George as Prime Minister, 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:04.119 but other MPs saying that they need to institute 00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:08.239 a minimum wage and Seabone says it must be a 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:11.460 livable wage. So those words, you know, we now 00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:14.820 have the Living Wage Foundation and that kind 00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:17.420 of concept, you know, Seabone was talking about 00:38:17.420 --> 00:38:22.059 in 1916. He's saying this to MPs that they need 00:38:22.059 --> 00:38:25.139 to think about how much it costs to live, how 00:38:25.139 --> 00:38:27.559 much your rent costs, how much like to feed a 00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:30.019 family costs. And those are things that need 00:38:30.019 --> 00:38:33.760 to be part of that minimum wage. and you've done 00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:35.960 some work the society's done some work on this 00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:38.619 but the kind of relationship with the unions 00:38:38.619 --> 00:38:42.480 and how that tied into the legacy in that space 00:38:43.019 --> 00:38:45.480 Earlier this year, we did a project looking at 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:47.599 the relationship between the trade unions at 00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:50.639 the Roundtree Company. We were focused on the 00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:56.000 1920s. And before the 1920s, there'd been maybe 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:58.699 more of a strange relationship between the company 00:38:58.699 --> 00:39:02.599 and trade unions, mainly because Joseph or other 00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:04.639 members of the family that were running the company. 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:07.440 kind of didn't really see the needs for trade 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.239 unions because they're giving all the workers 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:13.119 these kind of workers' welfare and things. And 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.460 at the time, it's still quite early on in the 00:39:15.460 --> 00:39:17.960 development of trade unions and I guess their 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:24.000 power. But by 1920, the vast majority of people 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.900 in the company are trade union members, mainly 00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:33.230 of the NUG. I think I've got that right. They 00:39:33.230 --> 00:39:37.010 developed later on to become the GMB union. And 00:39:37.010 --> 00:39:40.469 the GMB is still the main union at Nestle. So 00:39:40.469 --> 00:39:43.170 there is that thread going through with the company. 00:39:43.650 --> 00:39:48.579 And certainly... Seabone becomes the first Labour 00:39:48.579 --> 00:39:52.460 director in the factory. And so his father is 00:39:52.460 --> 00:39:56.219 managing director. And between the two of them, 00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:58.659 Seabone starts saying, well, we need to do something 00:39:58.659 --> 00:40:01.320 more and bring the trade unions in. They set 00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:03.719 up, as I said earlier, this workplace democracy. 00:40:04.420 --> 00:40:08.300 And that meant that managers and workers sat 00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:12.710 on these different committees. We've uncovered 00:40:12.710 --> 00:40:16.309 evidence from Seabone that says that all the 00:40:16.309 --> 00:40:19.050 workers on these committees are trade union reps, 00:40:19.230 --> 00:40:22.550 basically. And the top of this was the Central 00:40:22.550 --> 00:40:26.360 Works Council. But Sebo decides that he needs 00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:29.179 someone that he could just talk to who's connected 00:40:29.179 --> 00:40:31.019 with the union and that he needs to understand 00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:34.099 the worker's attitude on the ground. Because 00:40:34.099 --> 00:40:37.000 when they talk to him as a manager in the factory, 00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:39.780 and certainly when he takes over running the 00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:43.980 whole company in 1923, when Joseph retires. he 00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:46.059 realizes the workers aren't going to tell him 00:40:46.059 --> 00:40:49.000 the truth. So somehow he's aware that he needs 00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:51.900 someone he can talk to. So they talk to the union. 00:40:51.980 --> 00:40:54.880 They create this paid position of a chief shop 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:59.099 steward. And it's paid for by the company. And 00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:02.000 he's given an office. And the first person to 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:05.539 do it is Fred Hawksby. And Fred Hawksby, we did 00:41:05.539 --> 00:41:08.340 some kind of family history research on him. 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:11.360 And he comes from a single parent family. His 00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:14.429 dad died when he was very young. He's from real 00:41:14.429 --> 00:41:17.670 abject poverty. He served in the British Army. 00:41:17.690 --> 00:41:19.730 He was a servant and then served in the British 00:41:19.730 --> 00:41:23.630 Army for a while. Ends up in York. And when he 00:41:23.630 --> 00:41:26.570 first moves to York, he's staying with someone 00:41:26.570 --> 00:41:29.230 that works at the factory. So he's kind of got 00:41:29.230 --> 00:41:31.869 his in there. He gets involved in the trade union. 00:41:32.190 --> 00:41:35.750 He gets given this position. And there's always 00:41:35.750 --> 00:41:38.530 the risk that having a trade unionist paid by 00:41:38.530 --> 00:41:40.650 the company would kind of undermine the trade 00:41:40.650 --> 00:41:43.389 union. That doesn't seem to be the case. Within 00:41:43.389 --> 00:41:47.550 the Cocoa Works magazines, they are having articles 00:41:47.550 --> 00:41:50.929 by trade unionists that sometimes are quite radical. 00:41:51.510 --> 00:41:54.409 Fred Hawksby at times threatens to bring the 00:41:54.409 --> 00:41:56.789 whole factory out on strike, even though he's 00:41:56.789 --> 00:41:59.769 got this paid position. But he develops a very 00:41:59.769 --> 00:42:03.170 close relationship, even a friendship with Seabone. 00:42:04.010 --> 00:42:08.230 And a few years after he becomes the first paid 00:42:08.230 --> 00:42:10.949 chief shop steward, they realize his workload 00:42:10.949 --> 00:42:14.530 is so big that they bring in an assistant for 00:42:14.530 --> 00:42:17.570 him who's also paid by the company. And the first 00:42:17.570 --> 00:42:20.489 assistant chief shop steward is a woman called 00:42:20.489 --> 00:42:23.670 Irene Pickup, who has a very similar background 00:42:23.670 --> 00:42:26.650 to Hawksby. Again, comes from abject poverty 00:42:26.650 --> 00:42:31.719 for certainly. Her time in the 1920s, she's living 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:36.840 in a dormitory in an almshouse. She's given all 00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:39.539 sorts of different opportunities and becomes 00:42:39.539 --> 00:42:43.539 known in trade union circles nationally and even 00:42:43.539 --> 00:42:49.420 internationally. She wins the TUC's first award 00:42:49.420 --> 00:42:53.460 to recognise women trade unionists. And that's 00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:56.800 awarded at the first Women's Congress that's 00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:00.860 held as part of the TUC. way. She also ends up 00:43:00.860 --> 00:43:04.739 going to America to Brinois College, which is 00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:08.280 a Quaker college in Pennsylvania. But they start 00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:11.059 holding these summer schools for industrial women, 00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:13.780 which are quite radical. And there's a lot of 00:43:13.780 --> 00:43:16.500 history about them. But Irene is the first international 00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:19.340 scholar to attend this summer school. And in 00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:21.719 their official history of the Brinois Summer 00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:24.739 School, it says that they were so impressed with 00:43:24.739 --> 00:43:28.079 Irene Pickup that they decided to roll out the 00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.159 scholarship. to continue it for international 00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:33.300 scholars from all over the world. And the Bryn 00:43:33.300 --> 00:43:35.340 Mawr Summer School was for women involved in 00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:38.780 industry. It was to train trade unionists who 00:43:38.780 --> 00:43:42.199 were women. And in the end, it got shut down 00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:44.340 because it was becoming too radical. The summer 00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:48.300 school students were joining picket lines and 00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:51.500 were starting to organize against the conditions 00:43:51.500 --> 00:43:54.179 that they were staying in at the college. And 00:43:54.179 --> 00:43:57.400 it was starting to get a bit too unruly. But 00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:00.260 Irene's part of that history both her and fred 00:44:00.260 --> 00:44:04.139 hawksby are people who come from york or close 00:44:04.139 --> 00:44:08.159 to york came from poverty and were both awarded 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:11.179 in their lifetimes the british empire medal through 00:44:11.179 --> 00:44:14.159 their work through industrial relations amazing 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.300 as we kind of wrap up on this i want to kind 00:44:17.300 --> 00:44:20.880 of get your reflections on the year of celebration 00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:25.110 you've had in 2025 and what have been the highlights, 00:44:25.210 --> 00:44:28.530 but also thinking about the future and what does 00:44:28.530 --> 00:44:32.489 Roundtree and the legacy of Roundtree, the family 00:44:32.489 --> 00:44:37.409 and Joseph, mean for responsible business and 00:44:37.409 --> 00:44:41.110 philanthropy in that future state? Yeah, I've 00:44:41.110 --> 00:44:45.590 been really excited and I've just loved being 00:44:45.590 --> 00:44:49.800 involved in the Joseph Rand centenary. I'm really 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:53.219 impressed by how it was embraced by all sorts 00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:55.900 of other people around York, whether that's individuals 00:44:55.900 --> 00:44:59.699 who attended Roundtree site events or other events 00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:02.139 that other organizations were putting on to tie 00:45:02.139 --> 00:45:05.139 into the centenary, because we didn't want to 00:45:05.139 --> 00:45:07.460 have ownership of it. We very much wanted to 00:45:07.460 --> 00:45:10.840 open it up to the city and to anyone in the city 00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:13.019 to do things that could connect and we could 00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:16.300 help facilitate that. But also the kind of how 00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:20.320 widely, You know, it got national media attention. 00:45:21.099 --> 00:45:25.300 And just to put Joseph, but not just him as a 00:45:25.300 --> 00:45:28.900 person, but his ideas and the family, the things 00:45:28.900 --> 00:45:31.119 that we've been talking about in this podcast 00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:33.360 that the Roundtree family stood for and what 00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:36.400 they were trying to do, to just raise that profile. 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:39.519 And I really think that certainly in York, it 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:41.800 has achieved that. But as I said, it also got 00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:46.039 some national press recognition. And I think 00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:48.679 there's lots of ways that... the what the centenary 00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:51.380 has done is highlighted the different ways that 00:45:51.380 --> 00:45:54.320 people can engage with roundtree history whether 00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:57.139 that's people who used to work for the company 00:45:57.139 --> 00:45:59.800 getting together reminiscing about what it was 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:02.920 like or whether it's some of the work that we've 00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:04.980 done you know with the trade union project we 00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:07.400 also did a another project this year about the 00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:11.039 roundtree's ownership and newspapers and linking 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:13.900 that to the centenary and kind of going off on 00:46:13.900 --> 00:46:17.530 these lesser known aspects and and kind of bringing 00:46:17.530 --> 00:46:21.130 those more to the fore so going forward i think 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:23.989 that like all history you can look at it and 00:46:23.989 --> 00:46:27.690 you can it allows you to think about things you 00:46:27.690 --> 00:46:30.489 know and to compare those things to the issues 00:46:30.489 --> 00:46:34.090 that we're dealing with today and One of the 00:46:34.090 --> 00:46:36.030 things that keeps coming up, particularly with 00:46:36.030 --> 00:46:38.530 younger people, when they kind of start engaging 00:46:38.530 --> 00:46:41.690 with what went on at Roundtree & Co and kind 00:46:41.690 --> 00:46:45.809 of the philosophy behind the company, is so many 00:46:45.809 --> 00:46:48.570 times they say things like, well, why don't we 00:46:48.570 --> 00:46:51.130 have that today? And I think that a lot of people 00:46:51.130 --> 00:46:54.750 have seen parallels, certainly with that kind 00:46:54.750 --> 00:46:58.309 of early 20th century, the 1920s. We've been 00:46:58.309 --> 00:47:01.349 focusing a lot on the 1920s because that's when 00:47:01.349 --> 00:47:05.289 Joseph died in 1925. And so looking at the kind 00:47:05.289 --> 00:47:08.369 of 20s and the 30s, and I think that people see 00:47:08.369 --> 00:47:10.510 a lot of parallels with the issues that we have 00:47:10.510 --> 00:47:13.389 today. But I guess what people are missing, certainly 00:47:13.389 --> 00:47:16.309 in York, is an employer that is also providing 00:47:16.309 --> 00:47:19.469 all these other things. And I guess that part 00:47:19.469 --> 00:47:22.940 of that is as... Public services have perhaps 00:47:22.940 --> 00:47:25.960 diminished. People are looking to find, well, 00:47:26.019 --> 00:47:29.739 where are these things coming from? If they're 00:47:29.739 --> 00:47:31.880 not coming from government, which, as I said, 00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:34.400 is something that the Rowntrees supported, but 00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:36.099 if they're not there, what the Rowntrees were 00:47:36.099 --> 00:47:38.619 doing was providing places where these things 00:47:38.619 --> 00:47:40.539 could happen. And they did that through a workplace, 00:47:40.780 --> 00:47:44.139 but they also did it through Yearsley Swimming 00:47:44.139 --> 00:47:47.079 Pool that was basically given to the City of 00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:50.420 York. Rowntree Park was given to the City of 00:47:50.420 --> 00:47:53.280 York. York Homestead Park, which was basically 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:56.699 Seabone Roundtree's garden, was open to the public. 00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.880 I think it was the first public park in the city. 00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:02.679 So there are these other things. It wasn't all 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:06.340 just in the company, but it was about this family 00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:08.699 who had the wealth, who had the assets and the 00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:12.539 ability to create these things, these spaces, 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.480 and then giving them to the public effectively. 00:48:15.940 --> 00:48:18.199 I've just written down here that if I could sum 00:48:18.199 --> 00:48:22.119 up. the Roundtree legacy, it would be in one 00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:24.460 phrase, it would be philanthropy that's absolutely 00:48:24.460 --> 00:48:28.360 purpose -driven and with deep humility. Does 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:31.960 that chime right with you? They weren't in it 00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:35.559 for the likes. Yeah, absolutely. And they, being 00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:38.579 Quakers, often they didn't want credit for themselves. 00:48:38.980 --> 00:48:41.840 They basically wanted the things that were happening, 00:48:41.900 --> 00:48:44.719 the things that they had created to just be that 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.980 legacy. And the fact that we still have so much 00:48:47.980 --> 00:48:51.260 in York of that, you know, already speaks to 00:48:51.260 --> 00:48:53.119 that. But they didn't, you know, they weren't 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.440 necessarily looking at... credit to themselves 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.000 and the things that are named after joseph roundtree 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.980 i mean okay he set the trusts up but the joseph 00:49:00.980 --> 00:49:03.960 roundtree theater was built after him and it 00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:06.519 was built kind of in memorial of him and the 00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:09.519 the joseph roundtree memorial library which was 00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:11.880 built at the factory again it wasn't joseph who 00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:14.940 named it after himself it was people saying we 00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:17.420 need to recognize this but again they are physical 00:49:17.420 --> 00:49:20.539 things it's a theater it's a library it's trusts 00:49:20.539 --> 00:49:23.760 that do the work I also think that they had an 00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:27.179 interesting relationship with philanthropy. Joseph 00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:30.440 talked about how it's very good. He referred 00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:32.739 it to the soup kitchen that his father had set 00:49:32.739 --> 00:49:35.900 up and would talk about how people always want 00:49:35.900 --> 00:49:39.000 to support the soup kitchen and give money or 00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.679 food to it, but were less interested in finding 00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:46.039 out why a soup kitchen is necessary. What causes 00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:49.139 the poverty that requires people to have to go 00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:51.500 to a soup kitchen? Why can't they afford their 00:49:51.500 --> 00:49:54.940 own? food and there's something about that trying 00:49:54.940 --> 00:49:59.679 to deal with the the root causes and you know 00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:01.780 as i said they're involved in politics as well 00:50:01.780 --> 00:50:04.860 so it's trying to how can you change society 00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:08.960 so that you don't have inequality and poverty 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:12.159 and and the issue issues that come with that 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:16.789 not just treating the symptoms it chimes a lot 00:50:16.789 --> 00:50:20.369 with how businesses are starting to think and 00:50:20.369 --> 00:50:22.789 i'm really interested we've had a chat about 00:50:22.789 --> 00:50:26.489 future philanthropists who are interested in 00:50:26.489 --> 00:50:30.519 place and are in a position to make a bigger 00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:32.639 difference and i think there's certainly in in 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.599 the north and in the regions and in our cities 00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:37.300 and communities there are people who can make 00:50:37.300 --> 00:50:39.820 a bigger difference there so i think at least 00:50:39.820 --> 00:50:42.940 engaging in this this story and the history of 00:50:42.940 --> 00:50:45.800 roundtree is really important for who we are 00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:49.809 as as folk of the north nick Thank you for talking 00:50:49.809 --> 00:50:53.489 us through that. As ever with history, there's 00:50:53.489 --> 00:50:56.070 a lot of narratives and stories there. So I'd 00:50:56.070 --> 00:50:58.949 say congratulations again for creating a lot 00:50:58.949 --> 00:51:01.889 of human connection and agency around this over 00:51:01.889 --> 00:51:03.670 the past year. It's been great to see across 00:51:03.670 --> 00:51:08.469 York. So well done. And we'll catch up soon. 00:51:08.630 --> 00:51:15.539 Great. Thank you, James. So thank you to Nick 00:51:15.539 --> 00:51:18.699 for joining us and sharing such a fascinating 00:51:18.699 --> 00:51:21.320 and thoughtful insight into the legacy of Joseph 00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:24.670 Rowntree and his family. Reflecting on history 00:51:24.670 --> 00:51:27.309 helps us understand the world we live in today. 00:51:27.610 --> 00:51:31.210 The round trees remind us that ideas about responsibility, 00:51:31.650 --> 00:51:35.750 purpose and social reform in business have very 00:51:35.750 --> 00:51:39.110 deep roots. I'm grateful to Nick for bringing 00:51:39.110 --> 00:51:41.489 that story to life and it gives us a glimpse 00:51:41.489 --> 00:51:44.210 into what purpose -driven leadership looked like 00:51:44.210 --> 00:51:47.510 more than a century ago and perhaps leaves us 00:51:47.510 --> 00:51:49.329 with an important question which you can take 00:51:49.329 --> 00:51:51.789 away is where are today's Joseph round trees? 00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:55.300 They're out there. Absolutely. If you'd like 00:51:55.300 --> 00:51:57.019 to learn more about the work of the Roundtree 00:51:57.019 --> 00:51:59.460 Society, including their events and communications, 00:51:59.739 --> 00:52:04.900 visit www .roundtreesociety .org .uk or you can 00:52:04.900 --> 00:52:07.480 follow them on Instagram at roundtreesociety. 00:52:07.619 --> 00:52:09.699 And if you have any thoughts on this episode 00:52:09.699 --> 00:52:12.360 or ideas for future conversations, you can email 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:15.380 me anytime. Drop me a note. Thanks for listening.