Hello and welcome to The Purpose Brief. I'm James
Johnston, your dutiful host. Today we're exploring
the life and legacy of the Victorian philanthropist
Joseph Rowntree. Many of you recognise the Rowntree
name through chocolate and the association with
industrial history in York. But Joseph Rowntree
was also a Quaker social reformer who believed
business success carried a wider responsibility,
not just to generate wealth, but to tackle the
root causes of poverty. And that belief led him
in 1904 to establish a series of independent
trusts dedicated to social reform, including
the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Joseph
Rowntree Charitable Trust. His work was carried
forward by his son, Seabone Rowntree, whose research
into poverty helped shape very early social policy
in Britain. Last year marked the centenary of
Joseph Rowntree's death in 1925, and it was a
timely moment to reflect on what his ideas about
purpose, business and social responsibility might
still teach us today. So it's a real pleasure
to be able to welcome Nick Smith, who is Executive
Director at the Rowntree Society, to talk us
through that fantastic history. Nick, welcome.
It's really good to see you. Thank you. We're
going to talk through the important story for
York as a place, which is the Roundtree legacy.
Could you tell us a little bit about the Society's
work, particularly over the past year, it's been
an important year for you, and the purpose of
the Society? Yeah, so the Roundtree Society's
purpose is to build and share knowledge about
the histories of the Roundtree family, the Roundtree
Company and the three Joseph Roundtree Trusts,
but also to link that history and our increasing
knowledge of those histories with the kind of
contemporary relevance of some of the themes
and ideas that come up out of that history. And
over the last year, over 2025, we've been focusing
on the Joseph Rowntree centenary, which is 100
years since Joseph Rowntree, who's probably the
most famous of the Rowntree family. But it's
100 years since he passed away, since his death.
So we've been trying to encourage people, particularly
in York, but also wider, to engage with his story,
with his life story, but also the things that
came. from that, the legacy that he left, but
also other members of his family. Well done to
you and the team on this over the past year.
You know, you've been very busy, so congratulations.
And it's great to see a lot of visual representation
of Roundtree's legacy around the city, particularly
through the summer. So congratulations on that.
The Roundtrees were synonymous with confectionery
and chocolate making. They were retailers in
York for many years. Ultimately, we know them
as industrialists, reformers and philanthropists.
But when you look across their history, what
would you say rooted their sense of social responsibility?
Well, I think the most important thing is that
they were Quakers and their Quaker faith predated
certainly the Brown Tree and Co. confectionery
company that brought them wealth and also fame
and recognition. But their Quaker faith and the
tenets that were involved in that really underpinned
everything that they did and their guiding morals,
and particularly that Quaker tenet of that of
God being in everyone. So if we kind of think
about that phrase, if God's in everyone, then
that guides a certain aspects of equality, of
not differentiating people, but also wanting
to... help everyone and to take care of people
and to do another Quaker phrase would be useful
work. So do things that contribute to good in
society and however you'd want to define that.
But their Quaker faith would guide those kind
of values. In a way, 100 years isn't that long
ago in the history of civic history of York.
Why do you think they still, that Roundtree story
still has a hold on the kind of national imagination
of what a good business and philanthropists can
do for their city? Well, I think in York, there's
the Roundtree story and the involvement of the
Roundtree family. It's so intrinsically linked.
There are so many connections. There's some very
obvious ones. The factory, the company, which
was taken over by Nestle in 1988, but Nestle
are still a large employer in York. They still
are based on a part of the sites that the original
Roundtree tree cocoa works factory was and you've
got the joseph round tree theater you've got
yearsley swimming pool which was built and given
to the city by the round trees round tree park
homestead park and all these kind of very obvious
round tree connections but when you start looking
into the history of the round tree family and
their connections that they had in york There
are so many connections that are less obvious.
And a lot of the institutions that exist in York
have had some Roundtree connection or involvement
in them, including the foundation of the University
of York, York Explore Central Library, a long
history of accessible lifelong education in the
city. And I think that that not only... Or all
those institutions and different aspects of city
life connected with the Round Trees. But I also
think they set an example. And so there were
other people that would have been inspired by
them to take that on. And some of them worked
very closely with the Round Trees. There's a
figure in York history who's very important called
J .B. Morrell. He worked with the Round Trees
and was friends with the family very closely.
So even when you extend it to the kind of those
people. They are just intrinsically linked with
York. And I've often wondered if that and other
Quaker involvement, because there are three Quaker
meeting houses in York, which is quite a concentration
of Quakers. And so that link of both. the Quakers
and the Round Trees kind of sets a tone for a
lot of things that happen in the city. It's really
interesting because you see a similar model up
at the train line in Darlington where Quakers
were very involved in industrial revolution and
that kind of regeneration and prosperity in what
was a small town at the time. Just unpack that
for me a little bit around... the role of quaker
faith because there's a strong link between philanthropy
and religious faith i think historically in different
cases but what are your reflections on that I
mean, yeah, the Rowntree family, their Quaker
faith was really important. And different individuals
of the family engaged with it in different ways.
Some engaged with it really deeply. John Wilhelm
Rowntree, who's a son of the famous Joseph Rowntree,
he had a huge impact on liberalisation of the
Quaker faith and a lot of what Quakers are involved
in now, particularly that social responsibility.
they tend to be involved in. A lot of that comes
from the changes that John Wilhelm Roundtree
inspired in the Quaker faith, and that's internationally.
That's a huge impact. But there are others such
as Seabone Roundtree, who very much was a Quaker,
would attend their weekly meetings, which is
their equivalent of a church service, and also
taught that the Quakers have this idea of an
adult school, or certainly did have in the 19th
and 20th century. And the adult school was to
provide education to poorer communities, lifelong
education, initially around kind of Bible study
and learning, Christian messaging, so that they
could engage with religion. But if people can't
read and write, then you've got to teach them
to read and write. And in York, the Roundtree's
were very much involved in the adult school movement.
Many of them taught classes at... the adult schools
and as time went on those classes could be on
all sorts of topics and Seabone Roundtree who
I'm sure we might talk a bit more about he taught
at an adult school he attended Quaker meetings
but was perhaps less involved in changing Quaker
philosophy and approaches than other members
of the family so even for those who weren't as
involved in Quakerism fully It still guided him
and he would use it as a kind of roadmap, I guess,
of when he comes across problems or is trying
to do different things in the companies or with
the Roundtree Trust that we'll talk about. The
kind of underlying tenets is that Quaker faith
and the things that are tied up in that. I mean,
Joseph talked quite openly about the dangers
of poverty. power ignorance more than a century
ago he talked about you know he was pioneering
and the family were pioneering in terms of their
approach to education lifelong skills which is
very topical at the moment how far ahead was
he of his time when you compare him to other
similar characters in you know across the world
at that time i always find it an interesting
kind of as someone who could probably be classed
as a historian this concept of people being out
of time i think it's interesting but kind of
can be problematic um he was very much of his
time the way society was while he was alive is
what was driving him in how he interacted with
it and the things he thought needed changing
or improving but also Even at the time, it's
interesting that the way the question you've
asked is saying that maybe he was ahead of his
time, that when he passed away, J .B. Morrell,
who I've already mentioned, said something about
that perhaps he was out of his time in a way
that he was from a previous time and that he
held older ideals that were perhaps more, I guess
what we would think of as more progressive than
what was going on during his lifetime. time so
I think there is something about him I guess
less yeah difficult to say whether he was ahead
of his time but something about him being out
of his time and certainly a lot of his ideas
were more radical than perhaps the mainstream
ideas that were being taught at the time and
that often is attached to Joseph But you could
also perhaps attach that to other members of
his family, particularly his son, Seabone Rantry,
as well. He was very influential in those circles
and influencing what we would call now policy
and politicians around those big issues. What
was the thinking around individuals who were
his peers? Their entry family, and particularly
Joseph, were very much clued into Quaker business
networks. Historically, Quakers were excluded
from certain positions in civic society, etc.
They weren't able to go to most, if not all,
universities. And part of that would be about
there's always been a kind of Quaker distrust
trust or not wanting to take oaths so if you've
got to swear an oath to something that has never
really sat comfortably with Quakerism and the
fact that it's non -conformist Christian whereas
certain things were only open if you were Anglican
or other forms of Christianity. But what that
meant historically is that a lot of Quakers would
turn to business and would become fairly self
-sufficient in their own communities. So often
a lot of their networks and a lot of their friends
and their business circles were other Quakers
and the Roundtree's were very much tied into
that network. And what that meant is they are
discussing the kind of ideas about how to do
business, but also the social challenges that
they were engaging with. They are discussing
those with, for example, the Cadbury family or
within these Quaker circles. So in some ways,
they are part of that. They are not necessarily
separate. And it's doing that wider Quaker movement
a disservice to look at the Round Trees as unique.
But I guess from outside of those Quaker circles,
that they are doing things more differently.
And certainly Joseph and then his children and
downwards, they are engaging much more with the
wider world. And that's partly because of how
much more wealth they got through their business
activities than they'd have had before. It is
important to note that Joseph's father, who's
also called Joseph, we often call him Joseph
Senior, he moved to York from Scarborough. The
origins of the Rowntree family are much more
North Yorkshire Scarborough way than York. Joseph
Senior moved to York in 1822 and he bought a
grocery business, a grocer's shop and set up
business there. His father had a grocer's business
in Scarborough, so he's following the family
business. As he sets that up, it becomes like
it's not just a grocer's. They start buying and
leasing rooms to the back and buildings either
side of the shop and set up a soup kitchen to
help people who are struggling to feed themselves.
They set up an adult school and they have apprentices
that are, you know, the family lives at the shop,
but they also have apprentices. And one of them
included, I think, one of the Cadbury family,
George Cadbury. but you've got this kind of physical
space that's a business but it's also a home
and it's also where these social and civic things
are happening all in the one place and that's
before they become internationally famous in
their business and the wealth that that brings
you know it is a modest grocers to start with
but they're already doing this stuff and i think
that's important I don't think they saw a distinction
between their, kind of what they would see as
their Quaker activities, as their kind of civic
responsibilities, as their dealing with social
challenges and their business. I think for them,
it was all kind of just part of the same thing.
Do you think that the Roundtrees were the people
who piloted corporate purpose long before? corporate
purpose existed was it about an ethos that's
part of the business that was my first question
and the second question is could you sort of
say a little bit about their trajectory in in
terms of wealth and success and what did it look
like at the height of of roundtree's business
success whether they are certainly i think they're
probably pioneers in this kind of concept of
business purpose I don't know if they'd have
necessarily seen it in those terms. And they're
not the only ones doing it. You know, as I said,
certainly other Quaker families and other people
who were similarly minded at the time were doing
similar things. They certainly had allies. They
were very good at bringing people to them. So
people who were, even people who weren't necessarily
Quakers, but perhaps thought in similar ways,
they would often bring them to them, whether
that was to give them jobs in the company or
whether it was just a useful connection to have
the kind of trajectory is that you have as I
mentioned earlier Joseph Ramtree senior in 1822
sets up the grocers in in York his family then
particularly his sons although it is worth mentioning
that the women in the Ramtree family were often
also involved in different ways and they're kind
of often minimized or written out of the history
but if you start looking then you get like hints
that they are also involved in in some of the
activities that are going on But it was Joseph
Rantry's senior son, Henry Isaac, who does his
apprenticeship with the Took family in York.
The Took family were another important Quaker
family in York and are probably best known for
establishing the retreat mental health hospital
and pioneered more kind of humane treatment for
people struggling with mental health issues.
And the Took and Roundtree families knew each
other. They were close and good friends. The
Took family also had a grocery business. And
part of that, they had a small confectionery
manufacturing that they could then sell in their
grocery business. And Henry Isaac Roundtree,
who's Joseph Roundtree's senior son, does his
apprenticeship with the Took family. And then
later on in the 1860s, he buys... the tooke family
confectionery business and that's the start of
what becomes roundtree and co as the confectioners
so for a certain point you had the roundtree
grocery business and you had the confectionery
business and Henry Isaac initially is struggling
with the confectionery business. He's not doing
very well. So Joseph Rowntree Sr. asks the famous
Joseph Rowntree to go and help his brother with
the confectionery business. And it doesn't take
off immediately. The product that really kind
of makes it profitable is the invention of fruit
pastels in the early 1880s. And fruit pastels
become so successful. that that launches the
company. And within 10 years or so, they are...
able to build a new factory which is the haxby
road coco works and this they're able to design
to their own ideas and so it's a garden factory
as part of this factory they have gardeners it's
in nice grounds there's big windows to let light
in and they also start setting up out of work
activities so various social clubs or hobbies
clubs i always think of it a little bit like
university societies. So if you've got an interest
in a hobby, you'd be able to go to the factory
and see if you could set up a club. So there
were facilities built into the factory for those
clubs and also sports clubs as well. It just
becomes a community. It's not just a workplace.
And that is built into it. They have education
lessons. But they also are starting to pioneer
workers' welfare things. So in 1896, they institute
an eight -hour working day. They set up medical
provision at the factory. So in 1904 to 1905,
they have a factory doctor with nurses and other
support staff. They have a dentist at the factory.
They set up a pension scheme in 1906. They introduced
the five -day working week in 1919. They have
a structure of workplace democracy with various
workers, councils, departmental ones that feed
up to a central... council that workers and management
are both on and that has a certain amount of
decision making power and the important thing
with that is that women workers are involved
in this workplace democracy and it means that
their women were able to vote on factory matters
before they were able to vote in general elections.
That was incredibly pioneering for the time that
you would have a workplace but and a very industrial
workplace but one that was making nice things,
albeit, and people from different generations
that are linked to York will always remember
that and the smells of the city that went with
that. There's a lot of nostalgia for it, as you
said, and that kind of era. But actually that
approach to business, they didn't need to do
that, but it was always part of who they were,
their identity. They obviously... made wealth
from it and that wealth went directly into a
lot of the charitable trusts that still exist
today joseph ranchi himself became quite uncomfortable
with the amount of wealth that was being generated
by the business and and for the family he stated
that he thought that wealth was best spent within
one person's lifetime so you needed you know
enough and the family We don't want to underplay
the enjoyment and the quality of life that the
family were able to get from this wealth. But
at the same time, there was an uncomfortableness.
And Joseph was already interested in issues around
poverty and done some of his own research into
the causes of poverty. But his son, Seabone Roundtree...
Really took that further and did some pioneering
research into poverty in York and examining what
causes poverty. And his conclusions from his
book that's called Poverty, A Study of a Town
Life. It was published in 1901. And the points
that he was making is that most poverty is mainly
caused by people not having enough money to cover
their basic quality of life. life and that was
from low wages that people weren't being paid
enough. to have a better quality of life. And
also that at different times in people's lives,
they would move in and out of more severe forms
of poverty. For example, you know, young family
with children who are having to pay to bring
the children up are going to struggle more than
when the children are of an age where they can
go to work themselves. And again, in old age
where people aren't able to work either at all
or as much as they used to. they would then be
in more poverty. And Seabone was making the point
that because of these cycles, it's very difficult
for people to permanently escape poverty. So
while Seabone's doing this, he's also working
at the factory and at the company. And so the
two are connected. And what Joseph does, you
know, beginning of the 20th century is... So
that they can do something with this wealth is
he sets up the three Joseph Rowntree trusts and
he sets them up in his 1904. I think it's December
1904. He writes this memorandum and the three
trusts in their current formation are known as
the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which also has
the Joseph Rowntree Housing Trust as part of
its organization. The Joseph Rowntree Reform
Trust and the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust.
They each have their own things that they focus
on and they were set up to do different things.
But in the setting up of them, Joseph says that
as time moves on, as the challenges facing society
change, that they should be allowed to look at
new ways of dealing with the social issues that
he was highlighting. But effectively, the trusts
become the majority shareholders in the company.
They remain so for many decades. I think by the
end of the 1960s, they were no longer majority
shareholders. And certainly by the time Nestle
bought the company in 1988, they either had already
sold all their shares or had very little shares
left in the company. What that meant effectively
is that the wealth that would normally go to
the family, the profits that the company would
make, that ends up going to the trusts. If you
think by the early 20th century, the Roundtree
family were effectively the equivalent of certainly
millionaires today, potentially. billionaires
but I you know that's that's quite difficult
to quantify because we live in a very different
society now to to what was then after that generation
that's below Joseph individual family members
didn't have that kind of level of wealth and
that's effectively because that wealth was either
redistributed within the company and to staff
through things like the profit share scheme all
went to the trusts. And certainly early on, the
board members of the company and the board members
of each of the trusts... are often the same people.
They are often Roundtree family members or close
associates. The money, but also assets, and for
example, the trusts would often have board meetings
in the factory, but even family homes. So Seabone's
home, which was called the homestead that he
had built for him. is now the headquarters of
the JRF and other buildings on the site are headquarters
of the other two trusts, the Charitable Trust
and the Reform Trust. But he also gave part of
the land and his buildings to the Youth Hostel
Association. So the Youth Hostel in York was
Seabone's property. But you get this kind of
moving around of assets between the company,
the trusts and the family. As things change going
later into the 20th century, that has to change
for mainly legal reasons, but also the family
gets larger, disperses, moves away and are less
involved, certainly in the company. I know there's
a family members were involved in the trust for
longer than that. were the company but you do
get this kind of fading out of family members
and the family gets so large if you think about
each generation having different children it
doesn't become the same kind of close -knit family
firm if you like or or working together But if
we're thinking about the kind of legacy of where
is the Roundtree wealth gone now, it effectively
sits with the trusts and the work that that wealth,
they reinvest. That's where they get their money
from in order to be able to do their work. The
niceness of the business of making sweet treats
and all the things that went with that. But there's
a downside to that industrial and colonial context.
And as Roundtrees grew, as a big conglomerate,
really. What reflections have you got around
that legacy, just in simple terms of where chocolate
comes from? It is always worth remembering and
keeping in mind that our society is now, has
kind of come out of a colonial system past that
has certain structures that have a very long
tail. Some of them are still with us. but certainly
the success of the roundtree business was from
that you know the peak of that kind of colonial
british empire period and within that are issues
around either slavery or other unfree labor practices
that allowed you know certainly if we're thinking
about chocolate and the raw materials the cocoa
where that was grown those materials would have
in the the 18th century and into the early 19th
century, that they would have been produced by
slaves. So the Roundtree Society did some research
into this to see how we could work out where
the Roundtree story... fits into that. There
is still a lot unknown, so we've started to explore
it, but we've very much only scratched the surface.
You know, they would have been linked to this,
whether that's directly or indirectly. It is
important to note that we have found no evidence
that the Roundtree family owned slaves. And there
are two kind of key reasons for that. One is
the time period that the Round Trees really got
their wealth that may have enabled them to own
slaves, had it been earlier, was after the abolition
of slavery within the British Empire. And the
second one is that Quakers were very much at
the forefront of the abolitionist movement. And
so it's probably less likely that they would
have wanted to have owned slaves. However, there
were Quakers who, did own slaves so they can't
just rule it out on that you know quakers were
talking about issues around slavery and whether
this was a morally correct thing to have earlier
than most other people so there is that strain
within quakerism but they have got you know they
the businesses both the toque business and the
roundtree business were grocers they would have
been selling products they're part of that you
know colonial market of products that that also
involve people as the round tree company got
bigger they made decisions in the early the very
late 19th century early 20th century to buy estates
in the caribbean that were former slave plantations
we haven't yet established the contractual terms
of the people working on those estates but what
we do know is that in the early 20th century,
there were nine white managers. overseeing hundreds
of black workers and around 100 or so what they
called then East Indian workers. And the black
workers on the plantations are very likely to
have been the descendants of slaves who, once
slavery was abolished, the slave owners were
given compensation, but the slaves kind of didn't
have anything. And so the options that were open
to them often were to carry on working there.
And that's likely, that's where those workers
came from. The East Indian workers, after slavery
was abolished, there became a system of indentured
labor where people were often forced either directly
or through circumstances to sign contracts where
they would go from India and similar countries
around there to places like the Caribbean to
work for free for a set period of time. One of
the issues with this is, first of all, the choices
that they would have had whether to take up this
contract or not. But secondly, when their contract
finished, sometimes they were given transport
back home. Sometimes they weren't. But if you
can imagine, they won't have built any wealth
up. They've been working for free and probably
in pretty poor conditions. Again, we haven't
seen the actual contractual terms that round
trees used, but the fact that they had what's
described as East Indian workers on these plantations.
suggests that there is indentured labour going
on or that they are indentured labourers whose
contract have come to an end. And again, like
the freed slaves, their options to move away
from the plantations are limited. We know only
a little bit about the conditions on the plantations,
but what we do know is that they would be, I
guess, a far cry from the conditions of the workers
in York and all those things. that are being
provided by the Roundtree family that we talked
about earlier. That kind of... workers' welfare
didn't extend to their Caribbean plantations.
On the other hand, we do know that Joseph Rowntree
was giving regular donations to charities and
organisations that were trying to support slaves
or indigenous people around the world. So it's
something that the Rowntree family were aware
of and were supporting. They were involving themselves
with these knotty issues at the time. Just going
back to what Joseph Rowntree did for York and
the city around housing and and alleviating poverty,
which was a big driver for them. One of the key
things he did was establishing the village of
New Ayerswick, which was designed to provide
good quality, affordable housing for working
people in York. I think Joseph's phrasing is
something like people who earn their living through
the work, through their hands or their minds.
often people think it was a village set up just
for workers at the factory and that's that isn't
the case he wanted it to be a you know available
for kind of anyone in york to to live there uh
it still exists today it is still you know managed
by the joseph randry housing trust which is a
you know a kind of descendant organization of
the original organization which was called the
joseph randry village trust and that's also what
the joseph randry foundation of growing out of
it was very pioneering. There are other kind
of model villages and these garden cities ideas
that were going on at the time. But I think what's
really key with Joseph is that he'd been thinking
about these issues and obviously his son Seabone,
you know, a lot of his investigation had been
about poverty. So they're doing this. pioneering
sociological research, if you like, that then
is feeding into a kind of very practical solutions.
And they were, as a family, being practical and
trying to do things themselves was really important.
They didn't just want it to be an academic exercise
or a campaign. And that's not to say they didn't
do those things. But to create this village,
to provide better quality housing. And Joseph
was at pains to say it's not just the housing,
it's also a community. The way it's laid out
was designed for people to be able to speak to
each other, to kind of build community. And quite
early on, they built what is known as the Folk
Hall, which I guess is like a community centre
building. That still exists, it's still used
today. And Joseph was adamant that they should
set up a village council. And there's echoes
here of that works council that they set up at
the factory. This is for residents who live in
the village to get together, to make decisions
about what they should do in their community,
how the community should be run, to feed that
to the trust. But sometimes it was things like
putting on theatre production. And they were
very much supported in that by his vision, but
also practically by having buildings such as
the Focal, which could be used as a theatre or
meeting rooms. It is worth mentioning on this
that the Roundtree family, although they were
trying to do things, practical things in York,
and they were also encouraging others. in the
country to do similar, such as Seabone was often
talking to other businesses and other business
leaders to try and get them to implement similar
things. They were also talking to government
and lobbying governments and trying to, you know,
they weren't people who just thought, oh, businesses
should provide this. They were also saying, like,
there's only so much we can do as a business
here that some of these things should be provided
by governments. That was a key part of what they
were lobbying for. They were involved in politics.
Joseph Ranch is a founder of York Liberal Association,
which is now the local Liberal Democrat group.
Joseph founded that. The Reform Trust is set
up and is still a limited company. And the work
that they do is around political campaigning
and was set up as such by Joseph. And Seabone
himself was very much involved. Involved in government
initiatives, he became friends with Lloyd George
and Lloyd George brought him in as an advisor
on various government committees and had connections
with government. And we've uncovered evidence
of Seabone writing to Lloyd George as Prime Minister,
but other MPs saying that they need to institute
a minimum wage and Seabone says it must be a
livable wage. So those words, you know, we now
have the Living Wage Foundation and that kind
of concept, you know, Seabone was talking about
in 1916. He's saying this to MPs that they need
to think about how much it costs to live, how
much your rent costs, how much like to feed a
family costs. And those are things that need
to be part of that minimum wage. and you've done
some work the society's done some work on this
but the kind of relationship with the unions
and how that tied into the legacy in that space
Earlier this year, we did a project looking at
the relationship between the trade unions at
the Roundtree Company. We were focused on the
1920s. And before the 1920s, there'd been maybe
more of a strange relationship between the company
and trade unions, mainly because Joseph or other
members of the family that were running the company.
kind of didn't really see the needs for trade
unions because they're giving all the workers
these kind of workers' welfare and things. And
at the time, it's still quite early on in the
development of trade unions and I guess their
power. But by 1920, the vast majority of people
in the company are trade union members, mainly
of the NUG. I think I've got that right. They
developed later on to become the GMB union. And
the GMB is still the main union at Nestle. So
there is that thread going through with the company.
And certainly... Seabone becomes the first Labour
director in the factory. And so his father is
managing director. And between the two of them,
Seabone starts saying, well, we need to do something
more and bring the trade unions in. They set
up, as I said earlier, this workplace democracy.
And that meant that managers and workers sat
on these different committees. We've uncovered
evidence from Seabone that says that all the
workers on these committees are trade union reps,
basically. And the top of this was the Central
Works Council. But Sebo decides that he needs
someone that he could just talk to who's connected
with the union and that he needs to understand
the worker's attitude on the ground. Because
when they talk to him as a manager in the factory,
and certainly when he takes over running the
whole company in 1923, when Joseph retires. he
realizes the workers aren't going to tell him
the truth. So somehow he's aware that he needs
someone he can talk to. So they talk to the union.
They create this paid position of a chief shop
steward. And it's paid for by the company. And
he's given an office. And the first person to
do it is Fred Hawksby. And Fred Hawksby, we did
some kind of family history research on him.
And he comes from a single parent family. His
dad died when he was very young. He's from real
abject poverty. He served in the British Army.
He was a servant and then served in the British
Army for a while. Ends up in York. And when he
first moves to York, he's staying with someone
that works at the factory. So he's kind of got
his in there. He gets involved in the trade union.
He gets given this position. And there's always
the risk that having a trade unionist paid by
the company would kind of undermine the trade
union. That doesn't seem to be the case. Within
the Cocoa Works magazines, they are having articles
by trade unionists that sometimes are quite radical.
Fred Hawksby at times threatens to bring the
whole factory out on strike, even though he's
got this paid position. But he develops a very
close relationship, even a friendship with Seabone.
And a few years after he becomes the first paid
chief shop steward, they realize his workload
is so big that they bring in an assistant for
him who's also paid by the company. And the first
assistant chief shop steward is a woman called
Irene Pickup, who has a very similar background
to Hawksby. Again, comes from abject poverty
for certainly. Her time in the 1920s, she's living
in a dormitory in an almshouse. She's given all
sorts of different opportunities and becomes
known in trade union circles nationally and even
internationally. She wins the TUC's first award
to recognise women trade unionists. And that's
awarded at the first Women's Congress that's
held as part of the TUC. way. She also ends up
going to America to Brinois College, which is
a Quaker college in Pennsylvania. But they start
holding these summer schools for industrial women,
which are quite radical. And there's a lot of
history about them. But Irene is the first international
scholar to attend this summer school. And in
their official history of the Brinois Summer
School, it says that they were so impressed with
Irene Pickup that they decided to roll out the
scholarship. to continue it for international
scholars from all over the world. And the Bryn
Mawr Summer School was for women involved in
industry. It was to train trade unionists who
were women. And in the end, it got shut down
because it was becoming too radical. The summer
school students were joining picket lines and
were starting to organize against the conditions
that they were staying in at the college. And
it was starting to get a bit too unruly. But
Irene's part of that history both her and fred
hawksby are people who come from york or close
to york came from poverty and were both awarded
in their lifetimes the british empire medal through
their work through industrial relations amazing
as we kind of wrap up on this i want to kind
of get your reflections on the year of celebration
you've had in 2025 and what have been the highlights,
but also thinking about the future and what does
Roundtree and the legacy of Roundtree, the family
and Joseph, mean for responsible business and
philanthropy in that future state? Yeah, I've
been really excited and I've just loved being
involved in the Joseph Rand centenary. I'm really
impressed by how it was embraced by all sorts
of other people around York, whether that's individuals
who attended Roundtree site events or other events
that other organizations were putting on to tie
into the centenary, because we didn't want to
have ownership of it. We very much wanted to
open it up to the city and to anyone in the city
to do things that could connect and we could
help facilitate that. But also the kind of how
widely, You know, it got national media attention.
And just to put Joseph, but not just him as a
person, but his ideas and the family, the things
that we've been talking about in this podcast
that the Roundtree family stood for and what
they were trying to do, to just raise that profile.
And I really think that certainly in York, it
has achieved that. But as I said, it also got
some national press recognition. And I think
there's lots of ways that... the what the centenary
has done is highlighted the different ways that
people can engage with roundtree history whether
that's people who used to work for the company
getting together reminiscing about what it was
like or whether it's some of the work that we've
done you know with the trade union project we
also did a another project this year about the
roundtree's ownership and newspapers and linking
that to the centenary and kind of going off on
these lesser known aspects and and kind of bringing
those more to the fore so going forward i think
that like all history you can look at it and
you can it allows you to think about things you
know and to compare those things to the issues
that we're dealing with today and One of the
things that keeps coming up, particularly with
younger people, when they kind of start engaging
with what went on at Roundtree & Co and kind
of the philosophy behind the company, is so many
times they say things like, well, why don't we
have that today? And I think that a lot of people
have seen parallels, certainly with that kind
of early 20th century, the 1920s. We've been
focusing a lot on the 1920s because that's when
Joseph died in 1925. And so looking at the kind
of 20s and the 30s, and I think that people see
a lot of parallels with the issues that we have
today. But I guess what people are missing, certainly
in York, is an employer that is also providing
all these other things. And I guess that part
of that is as... Public services have perhaps
diminished. People are looking to find, well,
where are these things coming from? If they're
not coming from government, which, as I said,
is something that the Rowntrees supported, but
if they're not there, what the Rowntrees were
doing was providing places where these things
could happen. And they did that through a workplace,
but they also did it through Yearsley Swimming
Pool that was basically given to the City of
York. Rowntree Park was given to the City of
York. York Homestead Park, which was basically
Seabone Roundtree's garden, was open to the public.
I think it was the first public park in the city.
So there are these other things. It wasn't all
just in the company, but it was about this family
who had the wealth, who had the assets and the
ability to create these things, these spaces,
and then giving them to the public effectively.
I've just written down here that if I could sum
up. the Roundtree legacy, it would be in one
phrase, it would be philanthropy that's absolutely
purpose -driven and with deep humility. Does
that chime right with you? They weren't in it
for the likes. Yeah, absolutely. And they, being
Quakers, often they didn't want credit for themselves.
They basically wanted the things that were happening,
the things that they had created to just be that
legacy. And the fact that we still have so much
in York of that, you know, already speaks to
that. But they didn't, you know, they weren't
necessarily looking at... credit to themselves
and the things that are named after joseph roundtree
i mean okay he set the trusts up but the joseph
roundtree theater was built after him and it
was built kind of in memorial of him and the
the joseph roundtree memorial library which was
built at the factory again it wasn't joseph who
named it after himself it was people saying we
need to recognize this but again they are physical
things it's a theater it's a library it's trusts
that do the work I also think that they had an
interesting relationship with philanthropy. Joseph
talked about how it's very good. He referred
it to the soup kitchen that his father had set
up and would talk about how people always want
to support the soup kitchen and give money or
food to it, but were less interested in finding
out why a soup kitchen is necessary. What causes
the poverty that requires people to have to go
to a soup kitchen? Why can't they afford their
own? food and there's something about that trying
to deal with the the root causes and you know
as i said they're involved in politics as well
so it's trying to how can you change society
so that you don't have inequality and poverty
and and the issue issues that come with that
not just treating the symptoms it chimes a lot
with how businesses are starting to think and
i'm really interested we've had a chat about
future philanthropists who are interested in
place and are in a position to make a bigger
difference and i think there's certainly in in
the north and in the regions and in our cities
and communities there are people who can make
a bigger difference there so i think at least
engaging in this this story and the history of
roundtree is really important for who we are
as as folk of the north nick Thank you for talking
us through that. As ever with history, there's
a lot of narratives and stories there. So I'd
say congratulations again for creating a lot
of human connection and agency around this over
the past year. It's been great to see across
York. So well done. And we'll catch up soon.
Great. Thank you, James. So thank you to Nick
for joining us and sharing such a fascinating
and thoughtful insight into the legacy of Joseph
Rowntree and his family. Reflecting on history
helps us understand the world we live in today.
The round trees remind us that ideas about responsibility,
purpose and social reform in business have very
deep roots. I'm grateful to Nick for bringing
that story to life and it gives us a glimpse
into what purpose -driven leadership looked like
more than a century ago and perhaps leaves us
with an important question which you can take
away is where are today's Joseph round trees?
They're out there. Absolutely. If you'd like
to learn more about the work of the Roundtree
Society, including their events and communications,
visit www .roundtreesociety .org .uk or you can
follow them on Instagram at roundtreesociety.
And if you have any thoughts on this episode
or ideas for future conversations, you can email
me anytime. Drop me a note. Thanks for listening.