Something is changing in our country, and most
people feel it before they can explain it. Welcome
to the Steady State Sentinel. I'm Lauren Anderson,
and I've spent more than four decades working
in the fields of national security, intelligence,
and geopolitics, including nearly 30 years with
the FBI. I've often joked that I tend to run
toward the things that most people run away from.
Our guest today, Nina Hachigian, recently wrote
an article for Foreign Affairs magazine entitled
The Autocrat's Worst Enemy, Why Despots Hate
Cities and the Mayors Who Run Them. Although
we don't often think about it, local communities,
both in the United States and around the world,
are where much of the real governance and day
-to -day work takes place. Using Nina's foreign
affairs article as our jumping off point, we'll
explore why local leadership matters in parts
of the world that are experiencing growing authoritarianism
and democratic erosion, how communities can strengthen
democratic resilience, and frankly, why we should
care. We'll talk about why people continue to
place so much trust in those closest to their
communities. and what role each of us can play,
if we choose, in strengthening democratic resilience
where we live. I'm delighted to welcome Ambassador
Nina Hachigian. Nina is the founder and CEO of
the Alliance for Local Leaders International,
a nonpartisan nonprofit dedicated to supporting
and connecting mayors and governors globally
to solve shared challenges. She's had an extraordinary
career. spanning diplomacy, local government,
and international affairs, serving as the U .S.
Ambassador to the Association of Southeast Asian
Nations, Deputy Mayor for International Affairs
for Los Angeles, and the first U .S. Special
Representative for City and State Diplomacy at
the U .S. State Department. Nina also served
on the staff of the National Security Council
during the Clinton administration. She's the
editor of Debating China, the U .S.-China Relationship
in 10 Conversations, and co -author of The Next
American Century, How the U .S. Can Thrive as
Other Powers Rise. Nina, welcome. It's an absolute
pleasure to have you with us. And I'd love to
ask our guests to start off a little bit about
themselves and their origin story, because we're
all so much more than our titles and our resumes.
So if you would share a little bit about how
Nina became Nina, that would be terrific. Well,
thank you. And thank you so much for having me
and having this conversation. So I grew up as
the daughter of an immigrant on my mom's side
and then a second generation on my dad's side.
So I think my interest in foreign affairs and
foreign policy started at a very early age. When
I went to visit my Armenian grandmother, who
had as many Armenians fled the genocide, it was
like visiting another country. Everything smelled
different, looked different, different language.
And I just loved her so much and relished those
times. And then on my mom's side, we went to
Germany every year, every other year. to visit
with my grandparents. She had left Germany because
of the class constraints, the gender constraints.
And at the time when she grew up, just a lack
of acknowledgement about what had happened in
World War II. So I think, anyway, my interest
in foreign affairs started very young. I grew
up in New York City, so I already had pretty
close association with cities until I was 12
or so and then suburbs after that. Yeah. And
so, you know, long circuitous route, including
like a one -year stint as a lawyer, which I realized
quickly was not my thing. Well, that's great.
And so what was your what was your first role
then in government? Well, I was actually first.
It depends on how far back you want to go. I
was a I was an intern at the State Department
in law school. Then I worked for a judge for
a year. Oh, actually, no. Yeah, no. Actually,
my first role in government was as a legislative
correspondent to Congressman Bruce Morrison right
after college. And then I did a stint in law
school as an intern at the legal advisor's office
in the State Department. And then I worked for
a judge. And then I worked for the Federal Trade
Commission. And then I worked for the NSC when
I was, I guess, it was 1999 -ish under the Clinton
administration. And then you said everything
else. Well, that's actually something we share
because I'm also born in New York City, which
we didn't talk about before, and started school
there and then out to the suburbs in New Jersey.
So like you, I had the urban experience and then
the... suburban experience. And I love that public
service was something that was a part of who
you were from a very early part of your life.
And I think it's so important. And I know we're
going to get into this, but thank you for your
service starting at such a young age because
it matters. And I think it's a great thing to
be modeling for everyone out there since I think
we both agree. There's not enough attention focused
on the importance of public service or community
service and how, whether that's in a local town
or at the federal government level, it makes
such a difference in terms of your participation
and how you understand the importance of participation.
And that's something. We've both experienced.
So thank you for that. Thanks for the origin
story. So let's move into our first substantive
question. So I'm curious about what inspired
you to write this article for Foreign Affairs.
And why do you think that local leadership matters
in parts of the world that are experiencing growing
authoritarianism and erosion at the same time,
democratic erosion? When I was the deputy mayor
in Los Angeles for international affairs, that
really exposed me to the power that cities have
to improve the lives of their residents. And
at that time, we were connected to lots of cities
around the world for various reasons. you know
whether we're trying to learn something from
them or solve a shared challenge together or
it's a trade opportunity or or whatnot and i
had heard about the city of budapest and how
um the mayor there was really trying to preserve
democratic space and you know while being attacked
constantly by by victor orban so Mayors and governors
are really on the front lines of protecting freedoms
and renewing democracy. The work of building
it, the work of protecting it really happens
at the local level or can happen at the local
level when it's not going well at the national
level. And cities, after all, invented democracy
way back when. So it's, you know, they are now
the ones who are also holding it and protecting
it. And you mentioned a couple of other great
examples in your article from other cities and
countries that I've been to. I wonder if you
might just, in addition to Hungary, touch on
a couple of the others, whether it's Venezuela,
Turkey, your choice. But I think that they're
really informative because they show the extremes
of just trying to stop somebody from being your
competitor to going to throwing them in jail
or worse. Yeah, it's not it's not it's it can
be very unsafe to be a mayor in an autocratic
system if you are, you know, not towing the line.
So in I'll give you a few examples. In Poland,
the mayor of Gdansk was assassinated, actually,
by someone who was thought was very spun up by
the campaign of hate that the national government
was. conducting against him because of his support
of LGBTQ rights. Mayor Lopez of Caracas was prevented
from running for higher office and also thrown
in jail because of his role in leading protests
against the Maduro regime. The prosecutor said
that he had subliminal ways of inciting people
to protest. In Istanbul, the very popular mayor
there, Imamoglu, who's an opposition party figure,
and the day of, I think, or the day or right
after, he said that he would run as a candidate
for president. His university degree was revoked,
which made him then ineligible to run. And then
he was thrown in jail. And recently he has had
a, you know, a really sham -looking trial. And
there's, you know, he has charges filed against
him that would keep him in jail for 2 ,000 years.
Like all kinds of just... nonsense stuff of sedition
and corruption and spying and, you know, everything
they could think of. Wow. There's a few examples,
but in all those cases, what the mayors were
trying to do was to give people their rights,
their rights to protest, their rights to love
who they loved. their rights to, you know, to,
in the cases of Imamoglu, he was very focused
on poor women and children's nutrition, for example.
So, yeah. Yeah, and I think one of the things,
too, and I'm curious if you agree here, is because
they're mayors, and we see this in the U .S.,
there's a personal relationship between community
members and their elected or appointed officials
that we don't get on a national level. You know,
and I'm sure that you saw that in Los Angeles.
And I wonder if you could comment a little bit
on that dynamic and why you think that might
be create more effectiveness and better communication
and be able to move away from polarization, for
example, because of that personal relationship.
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think I think it does a
few things. First of all, I think you're right.
You know, we can run into your mayor. grocery
store or at, you know, when your kids are playing
soccer or whatever, they cannot, they're not
insulated from their residents and their neighbors.
I think that brings, it brings familiarity that
this is like a real human. It brings accountability,
importantly. So if, you know, the mayor says
they're going to do something and then they don't
do it, you can usually see that it's not done
or it is done. And so that, That accountability
is a key feature of democracy. Transparency is
another one. And I think, you know, cities generally
try to be pretty transparent about how they are
spending their budget dollars, for example. Some
cities are measuring all kinds of things, like
how many minutes it takes to, you know, to answer
a 911 call. Right. And every, you know, measuring
all kinds of things, how many trees, like, you
know. How many, you know, miles of street have
been paved recently, you know, et cetera. So
that's another really important feature of democracy
is that transparency that they have. I think,
too, that something that some of us, some people
don't talk often enough about is that what goes
on in cities and towns and at the state level.
there tends to be a greater degree of trust.
We both know there's been a very, very disheartening
erosion in trust in our institutions in the United
States at all levels, you know, including where
I came from, where the FBI largely was a respected
organization. And regrettably, in the past few
years, that's not been the case. And I think
what a lot of people don't realize is that. Having
that public trust, that absolutely feeds into
national security. And a lot of people may think,
well, I'm in this small town over here or I'm
in Des Moines or I'm in Bridgewater, New Jersey.
It doesn't matter to me, but it really it really
does. And I wonder if you could talk a little
bit about that, especially from your role in
L .A., about how you know what is going on outside
the community absolutely impacts the security
in the community. Yeah, I mean, cities and towns,
you know, mayors and other public servants at
the local level are really on the front lines
of a lot of international, you know, challenges.
So it could be extreme weather events from climate
change. It could be COVID or another, God forbid,
another pandemic. It could be a terrorist attack.
Recently, a bunch of cities' utilities were shut
down by cyber attacks. So it absolutely matters.
And when you talk about trust, mayors are the
most trusted level of government. Seventy percent
of residents trust their mayors, which is really
extraordinary. Figure that is held that is, you
know, and it's been the case for decades, whereas
national or trust in national government has
plummeted, as you as you say, in, you know, in
the last decade or so. It's I think the other
thing that impacts communities more is to some
degree, it feels at times that there's weaponization
going on. And when you and I talked before this.
We talked about the fact that it came out kind
of very quietly in court filings that, in fact,
the administration had withheld already appropriated
funds that impacted infrastructure in states
that didn't vote for the president. So I wonder
if you could comment on that a little bit and
how you see that expanding even beyond that potentially.
Yeah, it's troubling. It's very typical. of a,
you know, tending toward or admiring of authoritarianism
governments. This is like one of their key tools
that they have is to defund state and local government.
It's absolutely horrible, though, because, you
know, this is affecting regular everyday people.
And, you know, fixing infrastructure or also
SNAP benefits, like not feeding children. I mean,
it's really at the end of the day, it's local
government that has the responsibility to do
those things. And they do it typically with federal
dollars. But, you know, you gave one example,
another one. There's a proposal from the administration
to change. the rule and allow political appointees
to veto any funding that's going from the federal
government to state and local governments. So
that is really a recipe for political meddling.
And I'll say that in general, though, at the
local level, mayors are not like partisan political
figures for the most part. They're just trying
to get, you know, solutions and trying to make
lives better for their residents. So you will
see with the U .S. Conference of Mayors that
when they're issuing statements about, you know,
SNAP benefits or about the tariffs or whatnot,
they're doing it on a very bipartisan basis.
It's Republicans and Democrats and independents.
who are all signing on to those statements. And
that's an important thing. I wonder if you could
expand on, because although we know, I would
guess that a lot of our listeners are not aware
that there is a national organization for mayors
and a national organization for governors and
the degree to which they collaborate. And I'd
love for you to talk a little bit more about
that, because I think that the average person.
thinks that they're in a silo and that their
mayor is dealing with what's going on in their
town. And she or he is just kind of operating
in that little universe. And because I know when
just talking to people, they say, well, it's
just here. It's like, well, no. So I would love
for you to talk a little bit more about those
those two organizations. Sure. So the U .S. Conference
of Mayors is there's two actual city and town.
organizations that are national. One is called
the U .S. Conference of Mayors, and the other
one is called the National League of Cities.
They do slightly different things, but essentially
they are bringing mayors together to learn from
each other about, you know, all kinds of things
they all care about. And that could be, you know,
using drones in your police force, or it could
be, you know, what about AI and how can we use
that to make government more efficient? Or is
that too, you know, is it too dangerous? We know
we can't put on the proper safeguards. Or it
could be. you know, water infrastructure. It
could be, you know, all kinds of things. And
so they're constantly coming from each other.
And I will say that that happens across borders
also. So there are, you know, various international
networks of mayors and regional heads that, you
know, work on all kinds of issues. The most...
well -built -out area is around clean energy
and climate solutions. There's several networks.
There's a network of big cities. There's a network
of smaller cities. There's a network of, you
know, within the United States of cities. There's
a network that is cities and states and businesses.
But what we're all doing is sharing solutions,
working with technical experts, because we don't,
you know, mayors like to learn from other cities
that have figured out a solution to something.
As my mayor used to say, good mayors borrow,
great mayors steal. In the context of ideas from
other places. No, that's a great way of putting
it. And actually, you know, your work, I'd love
for you to talk now building on that. You know,
you chose to found this organization and, you
know, you're neither of us is in our 20s. So
I love the fact that you've made a decision after
all that you've accomplished, which is extraordinary.
Instead of like sitting back and saying, OK,
I'll be a fellow here and write, which is also
great and also a fun part of this point in life.
But what kind of what drove you to do this and
where do you hope to fill? Because clearly you're
filling gaps that exist. And I'd love for you
to talk a little bit more about how Alliances
International is doing that and what your vision
is, because you're still new. Yeah. Thank you.
I'm worried about our democracy and about our
country. And I am psychologically in the best
place when I feel like I'm making a difference
and I'm part of the solution. And if I were sitting
back and writing, I think I would be like pulling
my hair out. So at this point in my life, I mean,
I did write that article and I do write sometimes,
but I'm most interested in action and in change.
So, and I believe deeply that. Mayors are this
critical element of democracy that is really
overlooked for the most part, you know, but they're
the ones who, you know, get people to participate
in civic life and issue permits for protests
and help to administer free and fair elections
and protect vulnerable groups to make sure they
have their rights. Like that's all democracy
and they're the ones doing it. So we at allies
want to. Alliance for Local Leaders International,
allies for short, want to support local elected
leaders in their building and in their defense
of democracy. And one of the ways that we do
that is by making sure that they are talking
to each other so that our mayors here in the
United States can learn from the experiences
that others have had. And we're also collecting
collecting their knowledge um uh and we'll be
releasing that in a in a few months that is about
you know how what are all the innovations in
the way that cities are building democracy so
there's all kinds of innovation that happens
at the local level um there's this one kind of
popular um but relatively new phenomenon is participatory
budgeting, which is when a city will give a chunk
of money to the community and they have to decide
how to spend it. And there's a whole process
around how they do that. Can you give us an example?
Like, would that be a park or would that be a
town square or anything? Anything, really. I
mean, it could be whatever, you know, that group
of residents and civic leaders decide is most
necessary and fits in the budget and all that
stuff. So I'm just giving you an example, though,
of this is a way to bring people in and feel
like they are part of the process for real and
that they have agency. That all happens at the
local level, all that kind of, you know, innovation.
And so this volume that we will be releasing
is half of that. It's half all the ways you can
renew and make better our democracy, which obviously
we need, right? It has not been set well for
a lot of people. And second, how you protect
it. What are the different strategies that...
mayors and their civil society partners have
used to protect rights and norms and systems.
Well, and that's why I think I really love, I
think one of your subheadings within the article
was laboratories of democracy, which is really
what you're talking about, right? When you're
talking about towns or counties. And I love this
idea because part of what you and I talked about,
and I want to move to next is, as I shared, as
we do this podcast, We want to make it clear
to people about why they should care. We're not
just here. We're having a good conversation for
sure. But it's also to share ideas and to encourage
people. And I love this idea of participatory
budgeting and other things like that. And those
are great examples. And I wonder what you would
say to people who are listening who think, well,
I'm one person. I can't make a difference because
we both know a lot of people think that. And
so what sorts of things would you advise and
say, hey, here's some great ideas that you can
try wherever you are, whether you're in Los Angeles,
whether you're in Madison, Wisconsin or Jackson,
Mississippi? Yeah, this is actually this is something
interesting that I found when I was working at
the State Department doing this role of special
representative for city and state diplomacy.
The real interest across the United States in
small towns and in big cities, in international
affairs. And at that time, we were really focusing
on democracy. And so we brought groups of mayors
and state representatives to Armenia, for example,
which is a new democracy, talking about the role.
in democracy. But in terms of citizens, residents
of cities, you know, mayors really want your
engagement. They really do. And the more people
that are engaged with the city, the stronger
the civic fabric is, the more resilient democracy
can be in that city or in that town. And when
we, you know, have an opportunity to rebuild
our democracy and make it better than it has
ever been before. It can start in those places
where people still feel like they have the right
to participate and to have an opinion and to
expect responsiveness and to expect transparency
and to expect that their rights will be respected.
All those. Citizen expectations are critical.
So I would check out the events, the volunteer
opportunities on your city hall website. That
will fortify these democratic spaces that we
have now. So whether you're, you know, cleaning
a river or tutoring a kid or doing whatever it
is that your city or town really needs. That
engagement, that's the basis for democracy. And
the more people pitch in, the stronger the community
becomes and the stronger the democratic space
is. And I think that also then makes it stronger
to withstand any outside forces, whatever they
might look like, that would attempt to chip away
at that cohesion within the community and allow
people to unite and come together, regardless
of. how they're voting when they're going in
to the booth or turning in their digital page.
And I think that's so, so important to give that
agency. And the other thing that I've noticed
if I've lived around the world, and I'm sure
you've had the same experience, when things start
happening, good or bad, you usually first see
it. At those local levels, like school boards
became the place, you know, a few years ago,
as I'm sure you know, where a lot of the discontent
and concerns about certain policies, procedures,
how we were going, it started coming out in school
boards first. And generally on a federal level,
nobody's thinking about school boards, but they
were the first place that. We started seeing
a lot of change, a lot of discontentment. And,
you know, how do we address what we're unhappy
with at that level? Exactly right. Exactly right.
I think they are sort of the canaries in the
coal mine. Oh, that's a great phrase. That's
a great phrase. So what gives you hope? You've
talked about a lot of things that I think are
great. I love what you're doing with alliances.
I can't wait to see it continue to grow and see
if I can connect you with, like, have you done
anything with Portland, Maine yet? No, but I'd
be happy to talk to Portland, Maine. Well, see,
I actually lived there for a while outside of
Portland, but next week I'm going to be having.
Sheriff of Cumberland County, Kevin Joyce, is
going to be on the podcast on an immigration
episode. And so I am I love the idea of connecting
and interconnecting. So I'll say right now, if
I can make introductions for you at any other
places that may be good partners for you going
forward, I would love to do that. And and so
let's. Get to this point. And so what gives you
the most hope right now? We both know there's
a lot of discouraging things, but what gives
you hope? And what would you say to everybody
out there or besides some of the things you've
talked about, some really concrete ways to be
positive and move forward and make their own
difference wherever they are? Yeah, I mean, really,
these local leaders give me a lot of hope. They
are optimistic. They're brave. They're innovative.
They're smart. Mayors are just great. And they
are fun, actually, a lot of them. They have to
have a good sense of humor because of the assault
that they get on a daily basis. So they do. And
then, of course, like the young generation, like
my kids give me a ton of hope as well. But I
would say, you know, make it a point to to try
to go see your mayor and try to help. You know,
you can really it's very healing to make a concrete
difference in your own community, even if it's
tiny. So I would say, you know, like host your
neighbors. for brunch or whatever, for lunch
or breakfast or what have you, to get to know
each other, to get to talk about what's going
on in your block. Does anything need to change
on your block? And then you can go from there.
Well, thanks for that. I can't think of a better
way to end. So thank you for sharing those thoughts,
those hopes, the optimism. Thank you for all
that you've done your whole career and what you
continue to do with allies. I'm going to be watching
to see what happens. And I'm excited for you
as you continue to build this, build both within
the U .S. and outward globally, because I think
you're filling a really important, it's not a
whole, but a niche, something that could be expanded
that would make things better for everyone. Thank
you. And thank you for your. Thank you so much
for being here, Nina. I appreciate it. It's a
great conversation. And for everyone else, thanks
for listening to the Steady State Sentinel. This
is Lauren Anderson. Please keep listening. Please
give us reviews where you can. We welcome input
and we welcome two -way conversation. It's just
not one way. We want to hear what you think and
we'll engage in a dialogue with you and hear
about any ideas you might have for future podcasts.
So again, thanks again for the SteadyState Sentinel.
This is Lauren Anderson, still standing watch.
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