WEBVTT - generated with AI 00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.310 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:11.630 people feel it before they can explain it. Hello, 00:00:11.810 --> 00:00:13.869 you're listening to the Steady State Sentinel 00:00:13.869 --> 00:00:17.170 from the Steady State. I'm Jim Lawler, a former 00:00:17.170 --> 00:00:20.570 senior CIA operations officer. I've worked some 00:00:20.570 --> 00:00:22.870 of the most sensitive counterproliferation and 00:00:22.870 --> 00:00:25.769 espionage cases in the agency's history. And 00:00:25.769 --> 00:00:28.510 today I'm honored to be joined by my good friend 00:00:28.510 --> 00:00:32.189 and former CIA colleague, Bruce Held. Bruce, 00:00:32.229 --> 00:00:33.890 you've had one of the most remarkable careers 00:00:33.890 --> 00:00:36.649 in the national security space. You were a CIA 00:00:36.649 --> 00:00:39.689 clandestine case officer. You were chief of station 00:00:39.689 --> 00:00:42.090 on three continents. You were special assistant 00:00:42.090 --> 00:00:44.810 to two National Security Council principals. 00:00:45.109 --> 00:00:47.869 And ultimately, you were acting undersecretary 00:00:47.869 --> 00:00:51.649 for nuclear security. And I shouldn't omit the 00:00:51.649 --> 00:00:53.409 fact that you and I worked together when you 00:00:53.409 --> 00:00:55.469 were director of DOE's Office of Intelligence 00:00:55.469 --> 00:00:57.829 and Counterintelligence under two different energy 00:00:57.829 --> 00:01:00.929 secretaries. So could you please give our listeners 00:01:00.929 --> 00:01:03.750 a sense of the through line in that career and 00:01:03.750 --> 00:01:09.609 what motivated you to during all that time? Thanks 00:01:09.609 --> 00:01:12.549 for the kind words, Jim. I only wish I had been 00:01:12.549 --> 00:01:16.609 one tenth the case officer that you were. The 00:01:16.609 --> 00:01:19.750 question you posed resonates quite deeply with 00:01:19.750 --> 00:01:24.390 me. In life, I found meaning in serving ideals 00:01:24.390 --> 00:01:28.849 that are greater than I am. And in my career, 00:01:28.989 --> 00:01:34.549 U .S. National Security called out to me because 00:01:34.549 --> 00:01:37.829 I believe in America. I believe that the entire 00:01:37.829 --> 00:01:41.450 world is much better off with America. Because 00:01:41.450 --> 00:01:44.750 sooner or later, we Americans always come back 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:48.750 to the noble ideals that animate our country. 00:01:49.489 --> 00:01:52.629 As Winston Churchill reportedly said, you can 00:01:52.629 --> 00:01:55.689 always count on Americans to do the right thing 00:01:55.689 --> 00:01:57.829 after they have exhausted all other possibilities. 00:01:58.829 --> 00:02:01.989 I love that quote. I really do. If we focus on 00:02:01.989 --> 00:02:05.430 just when you were the director of DOE's Office 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:08.370 of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, and 00:02:08.370 --> 00:02:11.169 for people who don't know how large that portfolio 00:02:11.169 --> 00:02:14.930 is, that includes over 30 offices nationwide. 00:02:15.169 --> 00:02:18.669 What does DOE intelligence do that the CIA and 00:02:18.669 --> 00:02:25.379 the DIA do not? The core value proposition of 00:02:25.379 --> 00:02:28.460 the Department of Energy are the thousands and 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:31.500 thousands of top secret cleared scientists and 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:36.360 engineers who are employed by the 17 U .S. national 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:40.340 labs. No other element of the U .S. government 00:02:40.340 --> 00:02:44.080 has that anywhere near that type of that concentration 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:49.159 of scientific and technical talent. It is central 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:52.659 to our nation's ability to understand and do 00:02:52.659 --> 00:02:54.939 something about foreign nuclear weapons programs 00:02:54.939 --> 00:02:58.840 that pose an existential threat to the United 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:02.580 States. It is central to our ability to understand 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:06.539 and do something about advanced cyber threats 00:03:06.539 --> 00:03:11.199 and AI threats. It is central to our ability 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:15.659 to anticipate and thereby prevent a technological 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:20.590 surprise. Within that context, the DOE's Office 00:03:20.590 --> 00:03:22.930 of Intelligence and Counterintelligence has two 00:03:22.930 --> 00:03:26.030 core responsibilities. One, protect the Secretary 00:03:26.030 --> 00:03:29.030 of Energy from a counterintelligence disaster, 00:03:29.349 --> 00:03:36.340 i .e. a spy inside of DOE. And to enable, to 00:03:36.340 --> 00:03:40.580 protect the Secretary while enabling the U .S. 00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:44.099 intelligence community to effectively and efficiently 00:03:44.099 --> 00:03:48.840 and securely make use of DOE's exceptional scientific 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:52.539 and technical talent to advance our national 00:03:52.539 --> 00:03:56.280 intelligence mission. It was the best job I ever 00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:00.009 had. In part because I had two wonderful bosses, 00:04:00.389 --> 00:04:04.729 Energy Secretary Steve Chu and Director of National 00:04:04.729 --> 00:04:07.969 Intelligence Jim Clapper. They listened to what 00:04:07.969 --> 00:04:11.669 we said and they acted upon it. In particular, 00:04:11.789 --> 00:04:17.009 Steve Chu, very amusing to me, Steve Chu, the 00:04:17.009 --> 00:04:21.189 Chinese, the senior Chinese American in the Obama 00:04:21.189 --> 00:04:25.939 cabinet, along with Jim Clapper. convinced the 00:04:25.939 --> 00:04:30.920 rest of the U .S. government in 2012 to adopt 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:36.500 a more cautious policy towards China. And that 00:04:36.500 --> 00:04:41.660 was a fundamental shift of the policy of the 00:04:41.660 --> 00:04:43.540 United States government, the more optimistic 00:04:43.540 --> 00:04:45.740 policy of the United States government towards 00:04:45.740 --> 00:04:50.139 China that had been pursued by Republican and 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:53.389 Democratic administrations for 30 years. So it 00:04:53.389 --> 00:04:56.769 was a pretty big deal. I'm not surprised about 00:04:56.769 --> 00:04:59.470 that, what you say about Steve Chu. I've met 00:04:59.470 --> 00:05:01.370 him a couple of times. And what a lot of people 00:05:01.370 --> 00:05:04.470 may not realize is he's a Nobel laureate. He 00:05:04.470 --> 00:05:07.730 won the Nobel Prize, I believe, in physics, maybe 00:05:07.730 --> 00:05:10.589 10 or 15 years before he became energy secretary. 00:05:11.430 --> 00:05:15.850 And he's just a brilliant man, absolutely a complete 00:05:15.850 --> 00:05:18.949 patriot. So let's talk a little bit about the 00:05:18.949 --> 00:05:22.029 National Nuclear Security Administration. When 00:05:22.029 --> 00:05:24.810 I first went to DOE and I heard NNSA, I thought 00:05:24.810 --> 00:05:29.199 people were stuttering over NSA. I really did. 00:05:29.300 --> 00:05:32.279 I had never heard of the National Nuclear Security 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:35.740 Administration. And yet it is one of the most 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:38.800 consequential agencies that most Americans have 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.259 never heard of. So can you kind of walk us through 00:05:41.259 --> 00:05:44.300 what NNSA does? What do they actually protect 00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:47.240 and manage? And why does it matter to every American 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:53.660 that they do this? NNSA is by far the largest 00:05:53.660 --> 00:05:57.490 part of the Department of Energy. It designs, 00:05:57.889 --> 00:06:02.389 produces, and maintains all of the nuclear weapons 00:06:02.389 --> 00:06:08.430 that make up America's nuclear deterrent. The 00:06:08.430 --> 00:06:12.290 Pentagon uses the weapons and operates the weapons, 00:06:12.449 --> 00:06:16.569 but it is NSA within DOE that creates the American 00:06:16.569 --> 00:06:20.250 nuclear deterrent. So that's a pretty big deal. 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.199 In addition, NSA develops the technology that 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.980 enables America to keep tabs on foreign nuclear 00:06:28.980 --> 00:06:33.160 weapons programs that threaten America and our 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:39.600 allies. So NSA is unknown, but it very professionally 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:43.540 and quietly protects Americans from nuclear Armageddon. 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:46.779 Well, building on that, when you were the acting 00:06:46.779 --> 00:06:50.579 undersecretary for nuclear security, what kept 00:06:50.579 --> 00:06:52.759 you up at night? What were the threat vectors 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:55.079 you considered to be the most dangerous to the 00:06:55.079 --> 00:07:02.560 nuclear security enterprise? NSA, I do it myself. 00:07:02.699 --> 00:07:08.120 NSA was the hardest job I ever had. I, you know, 00:07:08.139 --> 00:07:11.079 I had a... book that thick of briefing papers 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:13.139 every night that I had to go, or I was supposed 00:07:13.139 --> 00:07:17.939 to go read. I never did. So I was there for a 00:07:17.939 --> 00:07:22.339 year of sleepless nights. The overriding concern 00:07:22.339 --> 00:07:25.759 of the new Secretary of Energy, who put me in 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:29.600 the NNSA job, Bernie Moniz, was that America 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:32.680 had been neglecting our nuclear deterrent for 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:36.660 over 20 years, while our adversaries, China, 00:07:37.180 --> 00:07:40.660 Russia, and North Korea were rapidly expanding 00:07:40.660 --> 00:07:44.120 and modernizing their nuclear arsenal. Secretary 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:48.660 Moniz was determined to put a stop to this. My 00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:52.399 job was to win over my four Pentagon colleagues 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.560 on the Nuclear Weapons Council to allocate more 00:07:55.560 --> 00:08:00.100 money for my nukes and less money for their conventional 00:08:00.100 --> 00:08:04.379 weapon systems. Those mediators were absolutely 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:08.459 brutal. Sandy Winnefeld screamed at me once. 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:13.220 But ultimately, Frank Kendall and Admiral Winnefeld 00:08:13.220 --> 00:08:16.519 came around to support us. If you don't know, 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.459 Sandy Winnefeld was a true -life model for the 00:08:20.459 --> 00:08:26.339 Tom Cruise character in Top Gun. That's fascinating. 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.660 I didn't know this. So as you're saying this, 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.600 you described that NNSA, National Nuclear Security 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.820 Administration, sits basically at the intersection 00:08:35.820 --> 00:08:38.240 of Department of Energy, Department of Defense, 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:42.289 and the intelligence community. So you've described 00:08:42.289 --> 00:08:46.909 a little, let's say, spirited discussions. But 00:08:46.909 --> 00:08:49.509 how well did these spirited discussions, may 00:08:49.509 --> 00:08:52.529 be kind, how well did these institutional cultures 00:08:52.529 --> 00:08:55.409 actually collaborate? And what were the friction 00:08:55.409 --> 00:08:58.649 points? Was it all about money? What were the 00:08:58.649 --> 00:09:02.570 things of contention there? On one level, it's 00:09:02.570 --> 00:09:05.750 all about money. Billions and billions of dollars 00:09:05.750 --> 00:09:10.299 of lots of money. So in a brutal struggle over 00:09:10.299 --> 00:09:14.240 money, if you put a little old DOE up against 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:18.440 a big intelligence community or the humongous 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:21.740 Department of Defense, DOE has to have a prayer. 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.159 But on a more important level, it's about U .S. 00:09:26.179 --> 00:09:29.909 national security. All four of my colleagues 00:09:29.909 --> 00:09:32.830 on the Nuclear Weapons Council were deeply committed 00:09:32.830 --> 00:09:36.370 to protecting U .S. national security. It was 00:09:36.370 --> 00:09:41.350 a tremendous honor to work with them. To my dying 00:09:41.350 --> 00:09:44.570 day, I'll remember on the decisive meeting in 00:09:44.570 --> 00:09:50.549 the White House Situation Room, Sandy Winnefeld, 00:09:50.850 --> 00:09:55.309 bless his heart, said, We all need to remember 00:09:55.309 --> 00:09:58.389 that this is America's nuclear deterrent we're 00:09:58.389 --> 00:10:01.570 talking about. And so we got the money and the 00:10:01.570 --> 00:10:07.129 sacrifice of his own budget. Well, that's wonderful. 00:10:07.389 --> 00:10:10.110 That's a great testimony to somebody who looked 00:10:10.110 --> 00:10:12.230 past their parochial interests and looked at 00:10:12.230 --> 00:10:14.590 our national security. That's the mark of a true 00:10:14.590 --> 00:10:17.850 patriot. Sandy Winterfeld is a great American. 00:10:18.590 --> 00:10:20.850 Absolutely. No, from what you've said, I'd love 00:10:20.850 --> 00:10:25.100 to chat with him someday. Let's talk about what 00:10:25.100 --> 00:10:27.080 we're seeing, though, now under this current 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:30.019 administration. We all know that there have been 00:10:30.019 --> 00:10:32.820 significant staff reductions at National Nuclear 00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:35.860 Security Administration. There have been disruptions 00:10:35.860 --> 00:10:39.080 to the nuclear nonproliferation programs and 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:43.419 to the broader DOE restructuring. From your vantage 00:10:43.419 --> 00:10:45.500 point, and you were there in the middle of this 00:10:45.500 --> 00:10:49.019 for quite a while, how serious is the damage 00:10:49.019 --> 00:10:57.440 that's being done? Very serious damage. First 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:00.100 of all, I need to say I don't get involved in 00:11:00.100 --> 00:11:02.759 partisan politics. I'm an intelligence officer 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:06.480 like you are. I don't do politics. I'm slightly 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:10.840 left of center, but consider Ronald Reagan the 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:14.480 greatest president of my lifetime. I agree with 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:20.159 that. I have loyally supported, as you have, 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:22.919 four Republican presidents and four Democratic 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:28.059 presidents. And we do so by providing facts, 00:11:28.460 --> 00:11:31.779 intelligence facts, that the presidents need 00:11:31.779 --> 00:11:34.500 to make their own policy, whatever their policy 00:11:34.500 --> 00:11:38.179 might be, to make their policy a success. And 00:11:38.179 --> 00:11:42.690 all those eight presidents listened. President 00:11:42.690 --> 00:11:49.049 Trump, however, particularly Trump 47, 45 was 00:11:49.049 --> 00:11:52.649 a little bit different than 47. But Trump 47 00:11:52.649 --> 00:11:55.990 chooses not to listen to the intelligence community. 00:11:56.230 --> 00:11:59.850 He acts on his own gut instincts, which have 00:11:59.850 --> 00:12:03.809 all too frequently been proven wrong. And he 00:12:03.809 --> 00:12:07.450 sees himself as a dealmaker, but he has no long 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:12.299 -term policy on anything. So let's look at his 00:12:12.299 --> 00:12:15.779 record. He's done nothing for normal Americans 00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:19.600 who are struggling economically. He has failed 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.980 to end Russian aggression against Ukraine. He 00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:25.639 has failed to restrain the nuclear weapons program 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.519 of North Korea. He has created even more of a 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.080 mess in the Middle East with the Iran war. He 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:38.100 has alienated our allies in Israel. He has alienated 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:41.129 our allies in Europe. He has left our allies 00:12:41.129 --> 00:12:44.190 in Asia deeply worried about his policy towards 00:12:44.190 --> 00:12:48.590 China. And his recent political stunt disrupted 00:12:48.590 --> 00:12:51.649 what was meant to be a joyous sporting event, 00:12:51.870 --> 00:12:55.970 was foolishly impulsive, and politically backfired 00:12:55.970 --> 00:13:00.850 against him. His greatest success has been to 00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:03.110 advance the financial interests of his family, 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:07.340 his buddies, and most egregiously himself. For 00:13:07.340 --> 00:13:10.960 heaven's sake, he made $2 billion, used the presidency 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:15.659 to make $2 billion in the last year alone. So, 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.919 yeah, I'm kind of concerned. Well, other than 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:20.879 that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? 00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:27.879 No, I agree with you. I don't mean to make light 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:31.750 of it. Former Director of National Intelligence, 00:13:32.029 --> 00:13:34.450 General Jim Clapper, one of the finest men I've 00:13:34.450 --> 00:13:37.149 ever met, he recognized you for transforming 00:13:37.149 --> 00:13:39.909 DOE's intelligence and counterintelligence capacity. 00:13:40.529 --> 00:13:43.149 It took many, many years to build those offices. 00:13:43.269 --> 00:13:46.210 How quickly can that kind of institutional capability 00:13:46.210 --> 00:13:50.490 be degraded, and how hard is it to rebuild it? 00:13:52.269 --> 00:13:56.549 I love Jim Clapper. I think he is great. And 00:13:56.549 --> 00:14:01.350 I think he and Leon Panetta, it was just great 00:14:01.350 --> 00:14:08.149 working with him. So let me be clear about what 00:14:08.149 --> 00:14:12.570 your question is. We can rebuild it. We know 00:14:12.570 --> 00:14:17.029 how to rebuild it. We've experienced setbacks 00:14:17.029 --> 00:14:19.850 before. We can rebuild it. But it's going to 00:14:19.850 --> 00:14:24.679 take a decade. In a decade period where we're 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:27.940 going to be vulnerable to that counterintelligence 00:14:27.940 --> 00:14:33.279 disaster that I spoke about, we might have a 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:39.620 spy. Somebody might feel the motivation to become 00:14:39.620 --> 00:14:45.620 a spy inside the U .S. nuclear complex, and that 00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:48.679 would be a disaster. Well, you know, you're right. 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:53.679 We had a colleague who used to say, I think it 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:56.379 was Paul Redman, he said, it's an actuarial certainty 00:14:56.379 --> 00:14:58.700 with the number of people who have clearances 00:14:58.700 --> 00:15:02.100 that were penetrated. And as you well know, Bruce, 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:04.259 when you were a case officer and we were out 00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:06.759 looking for targets, what we were looking for 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:10.600 were stressed out, unhappy people. And I think 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:14.720 we have inadvertently or intentionally. well, 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:17.840 actually intentionally created a lot of massively 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:20.460 stressed out people in the intelligence community 00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:23.220 and at National Nuclear Security Administration, 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:25.960 et cetera. And they're guarding our most precious 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:29.919 secrets, our crown jewels of this nation. And 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:33.700 yet we have. seeing this broader pattern of experienced 00:15:33.700 --> 00:15:36.360 career professionals being pushed out, senior 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:39.299 positions left vacant, interagency coordination 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:42.659 weakened. And as someone who served, as you did, 00:15:42.659 --> 00:15:47.820 as special assistant to both an NSA and a DCI, 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:50.799 how dependent is our effective national security 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.840 policy on those experienced professionals beneath 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.240 the political appointees themselves, the very 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:03.120 people that were beating over the head? The American 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:06.899 people elect presidents to run the country. I 00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:10.480 respect that. Those of us in the so -called deep 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:14.059 state, the presidents aren't obliged to us. We 00:16:14.059 --> 00:16:18.019 are obliged to win their trust. We do this by 00:16:18.019 --> 00:16:23.080 providing facts. Facts frequently are uncomfortable 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:26.490 facts. But there are facts that are needed to 00:16:26.490 --> 00:16:29.570 make the president's policy a success, no matter 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:33.330 what the policy is. We don't do politics. We 00:16:33.330 --> 00:16:39.230 provide facts. Once a president's national security 00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:46.730 advisor, the one you refer to, quoted me. I hated 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:51.110 every Aardwolf cable you ever sent me, but I 00:16:51.110 --> 00:16:54.289 always trusted them and I always acted on them. 00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:59.970 For our listeners, explain what an Aardwolf cable 00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:07.400 is. Sorry, I dropped into, thinking I'm talking 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:13.720 to you, I dropped into... CIA talk. Yeah. And 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.460 Ardwolf is, which is an unclassified journal, 00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:22.480 and Ardwolf is a COS assessment. The COS, no 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.460 matter where he happens to be, sits down and 00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:32.750 writes, what do I think is going on? And that 00:17:32.750 --> 00:17:37.789 assessment, that COS, Chief of Station's assessment, 00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:41.549 goes directly to the president without being 00:17:41.549 --> 00:17:44.829 touched. No editing by headquarters. It goes 00:17:44.829 --> 00:17:47.289 directly to the president, to the National Security 00:17:47.289 --> 00:17:51.430 Advisor, without being touched. So you are really 00:17:51.430 --> 00:17:59.460 on the line to... You really want to be careful 00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:02.099 what you say because it's going to have impact. 00:18:03.189 --> 00:18:06.329 Right. I mean, it's an unvarnished appraisal 00:18:06.329 --> 00:18:08.630 of the situation and the chief of station, he 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:11.450 or she has to give their best view on what's 00:18:11.450 --> 00:18:13.650 going on. And that's why we count on the chief 00:18:13.650 --> 00:18:17.150 of station so importantly to give that unbiased, 00:18:17.150 --> 00:18:20.910 unblemished, unvarnished view, just a clear view. 00:18:21.130 --> 00:18:23.730 And I know you did that in three occasions as 00:18:23.730 --> 00:18:25.970 chief of station. In fact, I think I recall you 00:18:25.970 --> 00:18:28.829 served as chief of station on three different 00:18:28.829 --> 00:18:32.130 continents, which is absolutely remarkable, including 00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:34.509 one of our. largest stations in Asia. I won't 00:18:34.509 --> 00:18:38.789 mention which one it was, but anyways, I recall 00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:41.990 you did quite a good job out there. So there's 00:18:41.990 --> 00:18:44.589 been a reporting on the administration's relationship 00:18:44.589 --> 00:18:48.210 with Russia, creating serious concerns inside 00:18:48.210 --> 00:18:51.430 the intelligence community. From a counterintelligence 00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:54.230 standpoint, what are the structural vulnerabilities 00:18:54.230 --> 00:18:57.630 when the policy leadership and the professional 00:18:57.630 --> 00:19:00.789 intelligence apparatus aren't aligned? Or worse, 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.119 Yeah, when one seems to be working against the 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:11.299 other. That is not a good situation. That is 00:19:11.299 --> 00:19:15.480 a very dangerous situation for America. But I 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.220 have to say, I don't pretend to understand the 00:19:18.220 --> 00:19:20.920 admiration that President Trump evidently feels 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:25.190 towards Vladimir Putin. I see no evidence, however, 00:19:25.430 --> 00:19:28.829 that Vladimir Putin reciprocates that feeling. 00:19:29.670 --> 00:19:33.069 I think the same is true with Xi Jinping and 00:19:33.069 --> 00:19:36.670 Kim Jong -un. All three of them are brutal dictators 00:19:36.670 --> 00:19:40.289 who wish harm to America. And I don't see why 00:19:40.289 --> 00:19:44.730 we, Tom Tillis said that same thing. I don't 00:19:44.730 --> 00:19:49.849 see what the president sees in his friendship, 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:54.079 what he gets out of his friendship. I see that 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:59.839 at this latest meeting, I believe it's in Turkey, 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.839 that President Trump gave actually a fairly positive 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:08.680 view of Ukrainian President Zelensky, which I 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.539 was stunned. I wonder how long that little bromance 00:20:11.539 --> 00:20:18.140 is going to last. President Trump had a good 00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:22.000 meeting with Zelensky? Yes, he did. He said that 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.339 now we may supply Ukraine with the capacity to 00:20:26.339 --> 00:20:28.619 manufacture their own Patriot missiles, which 00:20:28.619 --> 00:20:31.359 they badly need to stop all of the Russian ballistic 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:34.559 missiles coming in. But I do wonder how long, 00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:36.680 like I said, that bromance, how long that's going 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:43.640 to last. I 100 % support that. I believe that 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:50.039 the United States should. back Ukraine absolutely, 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.059 and we have a vested interest in backing Ukraine 00:20:53.059 --> 00:20:58.380 with the fullest of our ability. Absolutely. 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:00.259 No, I agree with you 100 percent. And it's just 00:21:00.259 --> 00:21:03.259 our support has been so tepid and up and down, 00:21:03.299 --> 00:21:07.400 though. I wonder sometimes, you know, and what 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:10.019 our European allies, what our NATO allies all 00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:12.619 must be thinking. How strong is a commitment 00:21:12.619 --> 00:21:15.920 from the United States if, in fact, you know, 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.400 if what they speak out of both sides of their 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.579 mouth. But let's go on to something else. Let's 00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:23.740 go on to. I just want to touch on that. Oh, sure. 00:21:26.619 --> 00:21:31.339 I do agree with President Trump that NATO allies 00:21:31.339 --> 00:21:35.640 should bear more of the bruit. So I give him 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:39.960 total credit for doing that. But I totally oppose 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:44.160 the way he's done it. Right. I mean, I agree. 00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:47.720 And yeah, it is sad that a lot of our NATO allies, 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:49.579 in fact, most of them, maybe with the exception 00:21:49.579 --> 00:21:53.059 of the Baltic countries, have not. held their 00:21:53.059 --> 00:21:57.440 commitments of 5 % of their GDP to national defense. 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:00.759 Let's turn to when you were running counterintelligence 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:05.900 at Sandia National Lab. And before you came to 00:22:05.900 --> 00:22:08.980 DOE headquarters to be director of intelligence 00:22:08.980 --> 00:22:11.740 and counterintelligence. So we know that foreign 00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:14.240 intelligence services, particularly Russia and 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.160 China, have long targeted our national labs. 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:18.980 I mean, this goes back to the Manhattan Project 00:22:18.980 --> 00:22:21.769 when they... so thoroughly penetrated the Manhattan 00:22:21.769 --> 00:22:25.029 Project at multiple layers. In your opinion, 00:22:25.049 --> 00:22:27.470 is the counterintelligence threat getting better 00:22:27.470 --> 00:22:30.410 or worse? And are we better or worse positioned 00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:32.930 to counter today than we were, say, five years 00:22:32.930 --> 00:22:39.269 ago or 10 years ago? The foreign intelligence 00:22:39.269 --> 00:22:42.890 services of Russia and China are very professional 00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:47.150 and very determined. They always have been, and 00:22:47.150 --> 00:22:51.519 they always will be. We won't win every match. 00:22:51.740 --> 00:22:59.059 They will succeed on some occasions. The challenge 00:22:59.059 --> 00:23:02.279 for America is to have a counterintelligence 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.039 strategy that wins more matches than we lose. 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.680 The key to a successful counter strategy is a 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.039 proactive personal engagement with your community 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:19.220 that you're trying to protect. And that, unfortunately, 00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:21.880 can be hard for secretive counterintelligence 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:28.279 types. It's kind of a cultural phenomenon. For 00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:34.359 example, at Sandia, Sandia is a top secret village 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:41.099 of tens of thousands of people. As in any village, 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:46.019 there's a small number of people, say one per 00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:51.390 thousand. who may at one time or another be motivated 00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:54.650 to behave against the interests of other village 00:23:54.650 --> 00:23:58.769 members. These are the people that intelligence 00:23:58.769 --> 00:24:02.970 services are looking for. And you, who we're 00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:11.609 very good at, if the village counterintelligence 00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:16.130 program totally alienates the entire village. 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.839 by reporting requirements or spying on them or 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:26.599 doing, you know, dumb things, we will lose more 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.960 matches than we win. But if the people in the 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:35.839 counterintelligence proactively win the trust 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:41.660 and confidence of the 999 good citizens of the 00:24:41.660 --> 00:24:47.029 village to provide an early tip -off, to the 00:24:47.029 --> 00:24:50.349 worrisome behavior of the one so that we can 00:24:50.349 --> 00:24:55.089 move quickly and early to nip it in the bud, 00:24:55.390 --> 00:24:59.269 then we will win more matches than we lose. It's 00:24:59.269 --> 00:25:03.710 very simple. It's very simple to see. But like 00:25:03.710 --> 00:25:07.369 I said, it can be difficult for secretive CI 00:25:07.369 --> 00:25:13.230 people to do it. I am not a CI guy. I am like 00:25:13.230 --> 00:25:17.980 you. I'm an intelligence guy. And so I want to 00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:20.980 counter our colleagues, our Russian colleagues 00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:23.099 and our Chinese colleagues. I want to counter 00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:25.559 their efforts. I don't want to prosecute anything. 00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:33.339 I want to nip the counterintelligence, developing 00:25:33.339 --> 00:25:36.359 counterintelligence in the bud before we lose 00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:39.000 a lot of information. And that's why Steve Chu 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:45.539 hired me to. to be as my end director. Yeah, 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:50.799 exactly, exactly. So the former Department of 00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:53.539 Government Efficiency, which is, well, maybe 00:25:53.539 --> 00:25:56.259 not particularly efficient. And certainly not 00:25:56.259 --> 00:25:58.460 for the government. But anyways, it and other 00:25:58.460 --> 00:26:01.579 efforts have created unusual access to government 00:26:01.579 --> 00:26:05.859 systems and personnel databases. From a counterintelligence 00:26:05.859 --> 00:26:09.200 professional's perspective, what questions should 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:12.140 the American public be asking about who has access 00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:15.240 to what and whether that appropriate vetting 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.359 has occurred with respect to these DOGE people 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:24.880 who are looking at all this data? Yes, yes, yes. 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:29.039 The American people most certainly should ask 00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:33.140 about who has access to what, whether appropriate 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:35.880 vetting occurred, and most importantly, maybe, 00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:39.420 whether Doge members took that information with 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:42.740 them when they left government. I don't know 00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:46.180 the answers to those questions. Maybe it's... 00:26:48.029 --> 00:26:52.109 Totally innocent. But the American people have 00:26:52.109 --> 00:26:54.750 a vital interest in asking those questions and 00:26:54.750 --> 00:26:58.990 demanding the answers. In particular, did they 00:26:58.990 --> 00:27:01.950 take any information with them that doesn't belong 00:27:01.950 --> 00:27:04.750 to them that is stealing U .S. government property 00:27:04.750 --> 00:27:08.529 and they should be prosecuted for it if they 00:27:08.529 --> 00:27:12.619 did it? Exactly. You know, as a former... operations 00:27:12.619 --> 00:27:14.839 officer, you and I would have been delighted 00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.500 if somebody in Russia or China had stolen all 00:27:18.500 --> 00:27:20.819 that personnel information about their people, 00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:23.420 because it would have showed us amazing amount 00:27:23.420 --> 00:27:26.980 of vulnerabilities, financial problems, all kinds. 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.400 As I said, you don't recruit happy people, you 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:32.279 recruit unhappy people. And having all the personnel 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:35.779 data that was contained in those files would 00:27:35.779 --> 00:27:37.700 have been a goldmine of targeting information. 00:27:38.259 --> 00:27:41.359 And I'm just wondering, you know, how our ad 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:43.740 adversaries, the Russians, the Chinese, the North 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:46.700 Koreans, the Iranians, how they may be very, 00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:49.099 very possibly are exploiting that information. 00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:52.559 So let's turn to the fact that I know, because 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:54.420 I've read some of your books, you've written 00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:57.400 some books on the impact of espionage in American 00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:00.940 history. So tell our listeners. What the titles 00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:02.920 of your books are, where they can find them, 00:28:02.980 --> 00:28:06.160 and are there any historical parallels that concern 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.859 you? Moments when institutional sabotage or political 00:28:09.859 --> 00:28:13.039 interference created intelligence failures that 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:15.460 we paid for dearly later. Please tell us some 00:28:15.460 --> 00:28:21.559 more about that, Bruce. On espionage history, 00:28:21.819 --> 00:28:26.539 I've written two books, and I shot that one. 00:28:27.130 --> 00:28:31.849 The first book is called A Spy's Guide to Santa 00:28:31.849 --> 00:28:34.549 Fe and Albuquerque, which I wrote out when I 00:28:34.549 --> 00:28:39.509 was out in Sandia. And it's amazing the amount 00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:43.670 of espionage basically running around nuclear 00:28:43.670 --> 00:28:48.529 weapons, but the amount of espionage that has 00:28:48.529 --> 00:28:53.119 taken place in Santa Fe and Albuquerque. in fact, 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:57.059 is considered a sacred site in the KGB, former 00:28:57.059 --> 00:29:03.140 KGB. Santa Fe is considered the sacred site of 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:07.039 their espionage, the greatest intelligence success. 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:11.900 took place, the greatest counterintelligence 00:29:11.900 --> 00:29:14.359 success took place, and the planning of their 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:17.539 greatest assassination, Leon Trotsky, all took 00:29:17.539 --> 00:29:22.380 place within a one -mile radius of Santa Fe Cathedral. 00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:28.279 It's just amazing. The second book I wrote is 00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:30.859 called The Spy's Guide to the Kennedy Assassination. 00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:38.859 We will never know whether there was a conspiracy 00:29:38.859 --> 00:29:42.420 involved. There was definitely a government screw 00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:47.539 -up on the part of an intelligence failure, on 00:29:47.539 --> 00:29:51.460 the part of the Secret Service, the FBI, and 00:29:51.460 --> 00:29:57.900 worse, most egregiously, the CIA. And the Substack 00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:01.440 blog is entitled The Spy's Guide to American 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.400 History. And that deals with the five major intelligence 00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:12.680 successes and failures of my lifetime. The Cuban 00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:16.220 Missile Crisis and success. The Kennedy assassination, 00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:20.400 which was a miserable failure. I don't know whether 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:22.859 there was a conspiracy. No one will ever know 00:30:22.859 --> 00:30:26.259 whether there was a conspiracy. But it was definitely 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:32.519 an intelligence failure. The demise of the Soviet 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:35.220 Union, which was the greatest success of my lifetime. 00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:40.400 And President Reagan is why I consider Reagan 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:43.279 the greatest president of the United States in 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:49.660 my lifetime. The 9 -11, which was a... A failure, 00:30:49.779 --> 00:30:53.779 but a tragic failure wasn't because we got beat. 00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:59.680 We got beat by a very determined foe in the Iraq 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:03.200 weapons mass destruction fiasco. That was the 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.319 tragedy, but it was fiasco. Yeah, absolutely. 00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:10.940 So these have had enormous impacts on American 00:31:10.940 --> 00:31:14.759 people, even though they might not realize it. 00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:21.299 Like you, Jim, I also write. spy fiction. The 00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:25.579 first of a five -part series was published last 00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:28.200 year, and the second will come out next month. 00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:33.259 The title of the first is The Intimate Spy, and 00:31:33.259 --> 00:31:37.079 the title of the second is The Young Spy in Love. 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:40.460 And can we find those on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, 00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:46.619 or where can we find those? Amazon is the easiest 00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:51.400 way to get it. Okay, great. So let's go back 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.119 and let's assume that you're testifying before 00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:56.839 a Senate committee today about the state of nuclear 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.420 security and DOE's intelligence capacity. What 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:02.680 would be your core message, just in a few words? 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.460 America is preoccupied by the chaos and the confusion 00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:18.480 that we are living through domestically. Some 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.180 of that's political, some of that has to do with 00:32:20.180 --> 00:32:26.279 AI, but we're preoccupied by this. So I would 00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:31.460 remind the senators that America has very dangerous 00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:37.589 adversaries in the outside world. And when it 00:32:37.589 --> 00:32:41.769 comes to U .S. national security, I would plead 00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:45.650 with the senators to check their partisan instincts 00:32:45.650 --> 00:32:50.670 at the door. And when we go inside those closed 00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:53.589 rooms, those skiffs, and talk about U .S. national 00:32:53.589 --> 00:32:57.509 security, I think we should focus on the national 00:32:57.509 --> 00:33:03.519 interest of our great country. I think that happens, 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:09.720 in fact, more frequently than we in the public 00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:13.599 know about. But I would like to reinforce that. 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.500 Leave your partisan instincts at the door. This 00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:21.500 is America. I had a very favorable experience 00:33:21.500 --> 00:33:26.759 when I was briefing some of the senior. politicians, 00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:30.200 both Senate and House, on some counterproliferation 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:33.200 programs I was running. And I always enjoyed 00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.740 bipartisan support. They kept asking me, what 00:33:35.740 --> 00:33:37.380 more do you need? What more do you need? And 00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:41.700 that should be the same type of answer that we 00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:43.779 have today. But unfortunately, it's gotten to 00:33:43.779 --> 00:33:47.940 be very partisan. I don't know. I just, I grieve 00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:52.000 for our country. I've had the exact same experience. 00:33:54.910 --> 00:33:59.890 And I was always heartened with those eight other 00:33:59.890 --> 00:34:02.710 presidents. I was always heartened that you get 00:34:02.710 --> 00:34:05.609 inside the skiffs, people eject the partisan 00:34:05.609 --> 00:34:12.849 things at the door. I am not inside the skiffs 00:34:12.849 --> 00:34:17.489 now, so I don't know. But I fear that it has 00:34:17.489 --> 00:34:21.480 changed. So do I. So do I. So our organization, 00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.699 the Steady State, which is basically sponsoring 00:34:24.699 --> 00:34:28.460 this Sentinel podcast, our Steady State community 00:34:28.460 --> 00:34:31.179 is largely made up of former national security 00:34:31.179 --> 00:34:34.679 professionals who are watching what's going on 00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:38.119 in our national security makeup with deep alarm. 00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:40.800 What do you say to those colleagues who feel 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:42.900 powerless? What can experienced professionals 00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:49.289 actually do at this moment? First, I share their 00:34:49.289 --> 00:34:56.730 alarm. I would recommend that we all do what 00:34:56.730 --> 00:35:00.250 we in the so -called, I'm proud to be a member 00:35:00.250 --> 00:35:03.409 of the deep state. That's what I'm proud of. 00:35:03.750 --> 00:35:08.610 So that we should do what we in the deep state 00:35:08.610 --> 00:35:13.070 have always done. We should get engaged. We should 00:35:13.070 --> 00:35:16.530 be respectful. We should avoid partisan politics. 00:35:18.099 --> 00:35:22.500 Excuse me. And we should frankly speak truth 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:27.219 to power about the dangers facing America. Yeah, 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.300 I couldn't agree more, Bruce. I am with you 100%. 00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:34.300 You know, prior to the 2016 election, I have 00:35:34.300 --> 00:35:36.800 a feeling that you were like me. I neither knew 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.219 nor cared what the political affiliation of any 00:35:39.219 --> 00:35:42.440 of my colleagues. In fact, it didn't matter to 00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:44.460 me. We were serving America. We were serving 00:35:44.460 --> 00:35:48.800 the Constitution. And I never once asked you, 00:35:48.860 --> 00:35:50.519 Bruce, by the way, Bruce, how are you voting 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.820 these days? Who do you support? It just wasn't 00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:56.880 relevant to me. We didn't have a clue. We didn't 00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.380 have a clue and we didn't care. We didn't care. 00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:03.619 I really didn't care. But I said. prior to 2016. 00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:06.940 Since then, it has seemed like there's some poison 00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:09.840 in the spirit of America. I don't know what it 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:13.679 is. You mentioned your Substack column a few 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.559 minutes ago. Tell our listeners how they can 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:17.719 find it. You know, I read that thing every week. 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.079 I love it. So tell our listeners how they can 00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:25.300 find your Substack column. The easiest way to 00:36:25.300 --> 00:36:28.550 find it is to go to my website. BruceHellBooks 00:36:28.550 --> 00:36:33.289 .com. BruceHellBooks is all one word, .com. In 00:36:33.289 --> 00:36:37.190 there, you'll find a link to the completed blog, 00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:44.130 Spice Guide to American History, as well as my 00:36:44.130 --> 00:36:47.909 ongoing blog, Spice Guide to American Future. 00:36:48.550 --> 00:36:56.539 And the history one deals with five... past intelligence 00:36:56.539 --> 00:37:00.579 successes or failures of my lifetime. The future 00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:06.139 is trying to reach an understanding of what is 00:37:06.139 --> 00:37:11.139 happening in Bush 47, really. I'm sorry, Trump 00:37:11.139 --> 00:37:19.500 47. And so it really is, it's easiest to go to 00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:23.840 my website and then you can just hit the link 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:26.630 and get you right to it. Yeah, no, I love your 00:37:26.630 --> 00:37:29.730 I love your substack column. And so I, as I said, 00:37:29.750 --> 00:37:32.809 I read every word. So one last question. You've 00:37:32.809 --> 00:37:35.289 seen administrations come and go. You've worked 00:37:35.289 --> 00:37:38.590 for both parties. You've worked for four Republicans, 00:37:38.769 --> 00:37:41.090 four Democrat presidents. You've watched the 00:37:41.090 --> 00:37:43.510 intelligence community through some genuinely 00:37:43.510 --> 00:37:47.289 dark periods. Are you ultimately optimistic that 00:37:47.289 --> 00:37:51.389 these institutions survive this or are we at 00:37:51.389 --> 00:37:53.710 a genuinely different kind of inflection point? 00:37:58.430 --> 00:38:02.030 We have to speak truth to power. That's what 00:38:02.030 --> 00:38:07.789 our job is. And our nation is in the most perilous 00:38:07.789 --> 00:38:12.769 moment we've been in since the 1970s. It's very, 00:38:12.869 --> 00:38:18.269 very dangerous out there. But Jim, I never bet 00:38:18.269 --> 00:38:22.409 against America. And so I think we'll come back. 00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:25.699 That's kind of like betting against Seabiscuit 00:38:25.699 --> 00:38:29.880 in a race. I really don't want to do that, nor 00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:32.960 do the Chinese, nor do the Russians, nor do the 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.099 North Koreans. Okay, Bruce, any last words for 00:38:37.099 --> 00:38:41.579 our listeners? I've really enjoyed this. I've 00:38:41.579 --> 00:38:45.159 enjoyed the preparation for it, and I appreciate 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:48.320 the invitation. Well, we've been delighted to 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.929 have you on the program. Your viewpoints across 00:38:51.929 --> 00:38:54.349 your broad experience across the intelligence 00:38:54.349 --> 00:38:56.690 community and the national security establishment. 00:38:57.230 --> 00:39:00.510 So to our listeners, if you like today's conversation, 00:39:01.050 --> 00:39:03.230 please subscribe to the Steady State Sentinel. 00:39:03.329 --> 00:39:05.949 Leave us a five star review and join us next 00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:09.289 week for the Steady State Sentinel. I'm Jim Lawler. 00:39:09.369 --> 00:39:15.429 Still standing watch. Thank you for listening 00:39:15.429 --> 00:39:19.139 to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. Don't miss 00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:22.199 out on more insights and exposes from America's 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.739 premier global security experts. 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