WEBVTT 00:00:00.430 --> 00:00:03.290 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.290 --> 00:00:12.070 people feel it before they can explain it. Welcome 00:00:12.070 --> 00:00:15.289 to the Steady State Sentinel. I'm Lauren Anderson. 00:00:16.109 --> 00:00:19.410 Before we introduce today's guest, I'd like to 00:00:19.410 --> 00:00:21.969 take a moment to introduce someone very special 00:00:21.969 --> 00:00:25.250 to the Steady State Sentinel. I'm delighted to 00:00:25.250 --> 00:00:29.129 welcome our newest co -host, Bree Fram. Brie 00:00:29.129 --> 00:00:31.289 served our nation for more than two decades, 00:00:31.629 --> 00:00:34.450 first in the United States Air Force and later 00:00:34.450 --> 00:00:37.030 as a founding member of the United States Space 00:00:37.030 --> 00:00:39.929 Force. Among her assignments was a deployment 00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:42.869 to Iraq, and she served until late last year, 00:00:42.909 --> 00:00:46.109 retiring as a colonel. I have to say, though, 00:00:46.250 --> 00:00:48.130 that one of the things I want to share that's 00:00:48.130 --> 00:00:49.869 one of my favorite things that I learned about 00:00:49.869 --> 00:00:52.909 Brie. is that she said it was a friend pushing 00:00:52.909 --> 00:00:56.030 her to watch Star Trek The Next Generation at 00:00:56.030 --> 00:00:59.670 age nine that convinced her that space should 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:03.049 be her future. And unlike most nine -year -olds, 00:01:03.109 --> 00:01:06.650 she actually followed through becoming an astronautical 00:01:06.650 --> 00:01:08.890 engineer before embarking on an extraordinary 00:01:08.890 --> 00:01:12.829 military career. Brie's also an author and a 00:01:12.829 --> 00:01:15.689 frequent keynote speaker, and she brings a thoughtful 00:01:15.689 --> 00:01:19.510 and distinctive military perspective to our team 00:01:19.510 --> 00:01:21.870 that complements the backgrounds the rest of 00:01:21.870 --> 00:01:26.510 us bring to these conversations. Like Jim, John, 00:01:26.849 --> 00:01:31.409 Peter, and me, Brie continues to be guided by 00:01:31.409 --> 00:01:33.950 the oath she swore to support and defend the 00:01:33.950 --> 00:01:37.700 Constitution. Brie, we are so delighted that 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:39.819 you joined the team. So welcome to the Steady 00:01:39.819 --> 00:01:43.500 State Sentinel. Lauren, it is so exciting to 00:01:43.500 --> 00:01:47.739 have this be my first episode of the Steady State 00:01:47.739 --> 00:01:51.099 Sentinel. Couldn't be more honored than to join 00:01:51.099 --> 00:01:54.799 you. But I will make one little rejoinder that... 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.079 You mentioned that I was thoughtful. Let's leave 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:01.000 that for the listeners to decide after we get 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:03.159 through this, because when I start stepping on 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:06.579 my words or making offhand remarks that are complete 00:02:06.579 --> 00:02:10.099 nonsense, I look forward to the feedback at the 00:02:10.099 --> 00:02:14.139 end on that. But it's awesome to be part of this 00:02:14.139 --> 00:02:17.539 and to help both tell the stories that reinforce 00:02:17.539 --> 00:02:22.879 who we are as Americans that protect our constitutional 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:25.979 rights. And then to learn from the guests that 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:28.639 you and the others have already had on the show 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:31.939 and those that we are going to have. But before 00:02:31.939 --> 00:02:35.419 we get to our guest today, I did just want to 00:02:35.419 --> 00:02:39.199 ask you a little bit, because I know you've had 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:41.759 a distinguished career and have probably ended 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:46.580 up in some challenging situations over the years 00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:50.520 based on who you are, potentially feeling a little 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:54.250 bit like an outsider. in your environment. Is 00:02:54.250 --> 00:02:56.870 there one story that kind of sticks with you 00:02:56.870 --> 00:03:02.830 on that? Wow. Oh, there's so many stories. I'll 00:03:02.830 --> 00:03:04.789 give you two really quick ones just because they're 00:03:04.789 --> 00:03:07.870 really quick. One while I was still at the FBI 00:03:07.870 --> 00:03:10.590 Academy and it was the night before we were due 00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:14.289 to shoot shotguns for the first time. And they 00:03:14.289 --> 00:03:16.389 had all the women stay after. We're all in the 00:03:16.389 --> 00:03:18.150 gun cleaning room and we're like, what's up? 00:03:18.210 --> 00:03:20.289 Why are the guys leaving and the women sticking 00:03:20.289 --> 00:03:23.919 around? And it soon became obvious because the 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:26.919 firearms instructor, who was awkward, really, 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:29.900 really nice human being, stumbling on his words 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:32.460 and said, well, tomorrow we're shooting the shotgun. 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:35.620 We're like, yeah, yeah. And he said, well, if 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:38.000 you have one of those like sports bra things, 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:41.300 you might want to wear them because like if you 00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:43.599 have a other one, it's metal and the metal might 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:45.960 get pushed into you when you're shooting the 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.039 shotgun. And it came from a good place, but it 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:53.009 was. It was hilarious. I still think about it 00:03:53.009 --> 00:03:56.310 today. So that was one example. And another fun 00:03:56.310 --> 00:03:59.270 one was in a serious vein when I was working 00:03:59.270 --> 00:04:03.409 counterintelligence many years ago. And we were 00:04:03.409 --> 00:04:05.949 about to pitch a foreign intelligence officer 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:10.110 from an unnamed country. And we're talking about 00:04:10.110 --> 00:04:12.689 it with all the executives and people from the 00:04:12.689 --> 00:04:16.209 CIA. And they start talking like I'm not in the 00:04:16.209 --> 00:04:18.949 room. And they're like, well, what if he hits 00:04:18.949 --> 00:04:21.860 on her? What if he does this? And I said, oh, 00:04:21.980 --> 00:04:24.680 I'm actually here. I hear you. I'm sitting in 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:28.060 the room. And if I haven't figured out how to 00:04:28.060 --> 00:04:30.319 deal with a guy hitting on me at this point in 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.399 life, I pretty much don't belong in this job 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:35.600 or anywhere else. So can we like move past the 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:37.879 point of Lauren being able to deal with a guy 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.100 that hits on her and get to what we really need 00:04:40.100 --> 00:04:42.019 to talk about? So those are the two that I will 00:04:42.019 --> 00:04:45.300 share that I still find incredibly amusing all 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:48.220 these decades later. Oh, well, we are definitely 00:04:48.220 --> 00:04:50.639 going to get to the things we need to talk about. 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.100 But from your first anecdote, I took away that. 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:58.500 good intentions can often be based on outdated 00:04:58.500 --> 00:05:02.240 assumptions and perception of the world that 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:05.420 just no longer is accurate or that there are 00:05:05.420 --> 00:05:10.680 people who live in a different time than we actually 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.779 inhabit today. And I think our guest today is 00:05:13.779 --> 00:05:15.819 going to be able to shed some light on some of 00:05:15.819 --> 00:05:18.920 those issues as well. So I am really excited 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:22.100 to welcome to the Steady States Sentinel. Jessica 00:05:22.100 --> 00:05:24.899 Ruttenberg. Now, Jessica, Lieutenant Colonel 00:05:24.899 --> 00:05:28.319 Retired Ruttenberg, overcame what she humorously 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.920 calls her vertical challenges to become a senior 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:35.000 pilot with over 3 ,000 flight hours in the United 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.540 States Air Force. And throughout her distinguished 00:05:37.540 --> 00:05:40.319 career, she championed inclusivity, dismantled 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.600 barriers for women and minorities in the aviation 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.120 field in the military. And her advocacy led to 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.160 the Department of Defense's first maternity flight 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:50.939 suit. symbolizing inclusivity and addressing 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:54.399 female pilots' practical needs. She also drove 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.560 change in aircraft design through human systems 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:59.319 integration, challenging outdated policies that 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:03.259 excluded 44 % of women from aviation based only 00:06:03.259 --> 00:06:06.339 on height. And her efforts reached Congress with 00:06:06.339 --> 00:06:09.079 the Equality for Military Mothers Amendment in 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:12.000 the fiscal year 21 National Defense Authorization 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.990 Act. protecting over 200 ,000 Armed Forces members 00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:19.029 from discrimination due to pregnancy, which was 00:06:19.029 --> 00:06:23.129 a huge milestone in military equity. And after 00:06:23.129 --> 00:06:25.350 retirement, she founded the nonprofit Level Up 00:06:25.350 --> 00:06:27.810 Aviation, empowering underserved communities 00:06:27.810 --> 00:06:30.889 to access aviation opportunities, continuing 00:06:30.889 --> 00:06:34.269 her mission to make the skies accessible to all. 00:06:34.569 --> 00:06:36.930 Jessica, thanks for joining us on the Steady 00:06:36.930 --> 00:06:41.290 State Sentinel. Thanks for having me, Bray. It's 00:06:41.290 --> 00:06:43.670 awesome to have you, and I've known you for a 00:06:43.670 --> 00:06:48.050 while, but I want to reach back probably to before 00:06:48.050 --> 00:06:51.990 I got the chance to know you, because I'm guessing 00:06:51.990 --> 00:06:55.610 there was a point where you realized that the 00:06:55.610 --> 00:06:59.009 world, particularly the military, might not have 00:06:59.009 --> 00:07:02.910 been designed with you in mind. When was that 00:07:02.910 --> 00:07:10.220 point in your career? I think... It can be traced 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:13.160 back as early as childhood when I reflect, and 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:16.439 I didn't realize it until up into a few years 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:23.939 until ago. In my career, I would say it was when 00:07:23.939 --> 00:07:27.379 I wanted to go to pilot training. I wasn't tall 00:07:27.379 --> 00:07:30.819 enough, but you have to be five foot four to 00:07:30.819 --> 00:07:34.860 be a pilot based on the medical standards. And 00:07:34.860 --> 00:07:39.029 you can also be too tall. It's usually a male 00:07:39.029 --> 00:07:42.949 problem, but they design aircraft usually in 00:07:42.949 --> 00:07:47.029 the 1960s in the anthropometric study, meaning 00:07:47.029 --> 00:07:49.110 like how you fit in the plane. It's not just 00:07:49.110 --> 00:07:51.509 standing height, it's sitting height. Can you 00:07:51.509 --> 00:07:54.550 reach the controls, your thumb reach? I mean, 00:07:54.569 --> 00:07:57.009 you have to hit a switch around the control handle. 00:07:57.170 --> 00:07:59.410 Can you reach it? All those things are considered. 00:07:59.750 --> 00:08:02.980 So they took the average male height. about two 00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:05.620 standards deviation and created a standard, which 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:08.759 excluded about 44 % of women between the ages 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:13.100 of 20 and 29. And that is just for the average 00:08:13.100 --> 00:08:16.339 woman. This is different for minority women. 00:08:16.939 --> 00:08:21.480 Women of color are much more impacted by this. 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:26.100 74 % of Black women cannot pass the sitting height 00:08:26.100 --> 00:08:29.060 because if you haven't figured out, you sit in 00:08:29.060 --> 00:08:30.939 a cockpit. You don't just stand in a cockpit. 00:08:32.409 --> 00:08:34.750 From like your hip to your eyesight, looking 00:08:34.750 --> 00:08:37.210 out over the cockpit, or if you need to see a 00:08:37.210 --> 00:08:39.909 HUD when you fly, they're disqualified because 00:08:39.909 --> 00:08:42.370 of that. And that's an engineering barrier that 00:08:42.370 --> 00:08:44.389 has nothing to do with their aptitude to fly 00:08:44.389 --> 00:08:47.649 because the anthropometric database is based 00:08:47.649 --> 00:08:52.090 on one type of race and one type of gender. And 00:08:52.090 --> 00:08:54.590 because of that, they built in barriers as they 00:08:54.590 --> 00:08:59.549 allowed women into the cockpits in the 70s. I 00:08:59.549 --> 00:09:01.629 will say that women were flying in the WASPs 00:09:01.629 --> 00:09:04.210 in World War II. They were disbanded. And then 00:09:04.210 --> 00:09:07.409 again, in the 70s, they started flying. And then 00:09:07.409 --> 00:09:10.210 in the 90s, they started flying fighter aircraft. 00:09:10.590 --> 00:09:13.409 So we had those baked in. So we look at stuff 00:09:13.409 --> 00:09:17.730 like women, you know, fighter pilots, and we're 00:09:17.730 --> 00:09:19.210 like, why isn't there any black women there? 00:09:19.309 --> 00:09:21.210 It's because we basically engineered them out. 00:09:21.490 --> 00:09:24.809 So for me, going to pilot training, I had stretched 00:09:24.809 --> 00:09:28.779 really tall. barely past that five foot four 00:09:28.779 --> 00:09:31.480 i wasn't really concerned about it because my 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:33.899 eyes were so bad and i had a waiver that when 00:09:33.899 --> 00:09:35.779 they measured me and i failed my standing height 00:09:35.779 --> 00:09:40.600 and was removed from my all male pilot training 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:44.659 class and told i was going to fail for my medical 00:09:44.659 --> 00:09:46.440 i thought it was for my eyes but then they're 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:49.250 like no it's your height I had just thought maybe 00:09:49.250 --> 00:09:51.330 I was slightly short. I didn't think it was a 00:09:51.330 --> 00:09:53.090 female issue at the time. And I wouldn't figure 00:09:53.090 --> 00:09:55.970 that out until like 18 years later when I was 00:09:55.970 --> 00:09:57.830 doing things in the Pentagon, like where Brie 00:09:57.830 --> 00:10:05.090 and I were at the time. So there's a lot there 00:10:05.090 --> 00:10:09.210 that you hit on. And to me, the key one was engineered 00:10:09.210 --> 00:10:14.309 out. And there was probably a point where we 00:10:14.309 --> 00:10:17.980 realized. that for the military, for any national 00:10:17.980 --> 00:10:23.740 security institution, we had to engineer in institutional 00:10:23.740 --> 00:10:28.419 improvement. And I think we saw this with women 00:10:28.419 --> 00:10:32.480 dating back all the way to Dakowitz, the Defense 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.940 Advisory Committee on Women in the Services, 00:10:35.139 --> 00:10:39.480 which was brought in in 1951 by George Marshall. 00:10:39.740 --> 00:10:42.120 And it has been in the news again recently over 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:44.509 the past couple of years. as this administration 00:10:44.509 --> 00:10:47.049 has attempted to push it out. But that was one 00:10:47.049 --> 00:10:50.549 of the first things that started to look at what 00:10:50.549 --> 00:10:55.129 can we do to engineer in success? And I know 00:10:55.129 --> 00:10:58.370 you then had a lot of effort going forward as 00:10:58.370 --> 00:11:03.129 what did it look like to engineer in our ability 00:11:03.129 --> 00:11:06.669 to grow and succeed in the military for everyone? 00:11:07.429 --> 00:11:11.210 Where did that come from? What did you do to 00:11:11.210 --> 00:11:14.210 turn? This thing where you saw people being pushed 00:11:14.210 --> 00:11:16.629 out through nothing, through something that had 00:11:16.629 --> 00:11:18.090 nothing to do with their ability to accomplish 00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:21.429 the job to a way to bring them in. And how did 00:11:21.429 --> 00:11:23.710 that make the military and the national security 00:11:23.710 --> 00:11:28.409 community better? Oh, wow. Great question, Brie. 00:11:28.490 --> 00:11:32.169 I would say that I didn't see it at first. I 00:11:32.169 --> 00:11:35.009 really didn't. I think I was like most 25 year 00:11:35.009 --> 00:11:38.149 olds. I just wanted to fly a cool jet. I want 00:11:38.149 --> 00:11:42.029 to be one of the guys. And I really downplayed 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.519 in my head things that were happening to me i 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.240 was like well i just didn't fly hard enough i 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.419 could have you know this and that um and then 00:11:51.419 --> 00:11:54.240 i started having babies and then slowly even 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.259 though i was flying the jet exactly the same 00:11:56.259 --> 00:11:59.600 way and still somehow the top flying hour person 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:02.460 even though i was pregnant because i hid my pregnancy 00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:05.059 got a waiver to fly during my pregnancy and then 00:12:05.059 --> 00:12:07.700 hit the ground running the minute i was medically 00:12:07.700 --> 00:12:10.779 qualified after the baby i was still at that 00:12:10.779 --> 00:12:15.289 level Yet my standing and my rankings were slowly 00:12:15.289 --> 00:12:19.049 going down. I was in denial until after the second 00:12:19.049 --> 00:12:23.029 child. And then that's when I, you know, it confirmed 00:12:23.029 --> 00:12:25.210 my suspicion because nothing had changed. I kept 00:12:25.210 --> 00:12:28.210 leaning in, quote Sheryl Sandberg. It was going 00:12:28.210 --> 00:12:33.549 even harder. And when it started happening to 00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:36.799 my troops, I kept getting promoted despite. The 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:39.340 ranking going down and I kept finding opportunities. 00:12:39.460 --> 00:12:41.759 So I just kept serving to my best capacity because 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:44.299 I just wanted to fly. But I found myself as a 00:12:44.299 --> 00:12:46.480 director of operations. And for the first time, 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:49.600 I'm in charge of large groups of women. And I 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:52.580 started seeing what happened to me happen to 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:55.080 them. And then I started getting really frustrated 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.960 because, you know, these were simple solutions 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:01.059 such as like, you want to fly pregnant? Great. 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:04.240 It's safer to fly this plane than it is your 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.870 car. for that same mission driving into work, 00:13:07.029 --> 00:13:11.509 right? We know this because of data and statistics 00:13:11.509 --> 00:13:14.950 instead of bias. But flight docs were grounding 00:13:14.950 --> 00:13:17.690 them and denying them. And I was getting really 00:13:17.690 --> 00:13:20.610 fed up with this. And at the end of my career, 00:13:20.669 --> 00:13:23.210 I was like, hey, what can I do to change the 00:13:23.210 --> 00:13:25.750 system? Because every time I file a complaint, 00:13:26.350 --> 00:13:28.570 or fix something, it's like whack -a -mole. They 00:13:28.570 --> 00:13:31.830 just keep coming back. So I thought people really 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:33.950 do want to do the right thing. And I'd still 00:13:33.950 --> 00:13:35.909 believe that if they get the right information, 00:13:36.110 --> 00:13:38.250 but getting them the right information is the 00:13:38.250 --> 00:13:40.769 first step. And the second thing is changing 00:13:40.769 --> 00:13:42.750 the system. And you're always going to have that 00:13:42.750 --> 00:13:46.289 ding -dong, that like one or two, 3 % that makes 00:13:46.289 --> 00:13:48.370 all that noise. There's nothing you can do about 00:13:48.370 --> 00:13:51.409 it. So I wanted to fix the system. I mean, it 00:13:51.409 --> 00:13:54.149 literally went from... I want to fly pregnant. 00:13:54.230 --> 00:13:56.570 People are trying to keep me from flying. To 00:13:56.570 --> 00:14:01.850 women in my unit being denied going to schools, 00:14:01.990 --> 00:14:05.629 pregnant, like SOS, which is a school that really 00:14:05.629 --> 00:14:08.309 isn't physically active other than a few obstacle 00:14:08.309 --> 00:14:10.809 courses that you can get a waiver for or you 00:14:10.809 --> 00:14:13.269 can choose to do, like I would have done, to 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:16.210 changing policy in the Pentagon. It just kind 00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:18.830 of morphed into it. I accidentally leaned into 00:14:18.830 --> 00:14:21.110 it. I think it's just called leadership. Because 00:14:21.110 --> 00:14:22.809 I would have done the same for the guys in my 00:14:22.809 --> 00:14:25.409 unit, and I have done the same things for guys 00:14:25.409 --> 00:14:27.350 in my units. I was getting them into pilot training, 00:14:27.450 --> 00:14:30.269 especially the enlisted ones that got their degree, 00:14:30.509 --> 00:14:33.149 why they served, and wanted to cross over. There 00:14:33.149 --> 00:14:35.730 were so many. And for the longest time, I got 00:14:35.730 --> 00:14:38.049 more men into pilot training until I started 00:14:38.049 --> 00:14:41.990 getting into these big policies. Jessica, I'd 00:14:41.990 --> 00:14:44.950 love to follow up with that, because I can tell 00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:48.110 you from not personal experience, but lived experience, 00:14:48.169 --> 00:14:51.889 that In the first years that I was in the FBI, 00:14:51.970 --> 00:14:55.529 when women agents would get pregnant, when they 00:14:55.529 --> 00:14:57.289 got to first, they wouldn't let them shoot. They'd 00:14:57.289 --> 00:14:59.070 stop them from doing things. And when they went 00:14:59.070 --> 00:15:02.470 on maternity leave, they took their gun and credentials 00:15:02.470 --> 00:15:05.830 away. And it drove me. I'm like, what are you 00:15:05.830 --> 00:15:08.990 doing this for? We're giving birth. We're not. 00:15:09.509 --> 00:15:11.429 There's nothing that means our gun and credits 00:15:11.429 --> 00:15:13.029 should be taken away. And honest to God, that's 00:15:13.029 --> 00:15:15.370 what was going on. And I used to say to people. 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:17.879 They're dropping kids. They're not dropping their 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:19.379 brains out of their head when they're getting 00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:23.379 pregnant. And so this is insane. But I think 00:15:23.379 --> 00:15:26.399 more deeply than that, these are certainly symptoms. 00:15:26.539 --> 00:15:29.600 But what is missed, and I'd love you to comment 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:33.019 on, is that when you have women or other groups 00:15:33.019 --> 00:15:37.059 of people absent, it's making whatever the organization 00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:40.080 is less effective. And I'd love for you to talk 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:43.350 a little bit more about the value added. that 00:15:43.350 --> 00:15:47.750 you and your colleagues brought that made a difference. 00:15:47.929 --> 00:15:49.669 You know, I want to throw this out there right 00:15:49.669 --> 00:15:52.289 now because I found this amazing about you. You 00:15:52.289 --> 00:15:55.990 had, I think, over 3 ,000 hours of flight time 00:15:55.990 --> 00:15:58.889 when you retired. And for people who don't know, 00:15:58.970 --> 00:16:01.590 and I just learned this myself, that's an extraordinary 00:16:01.590 --> 00:16:04.669 amount of hours in the air. Extraordinary. So 00:16:04.669 --> 00:16:07.169 kudos for that. But I would love you to talk 00:16:07.169 --> 00:16:10.350 a little bit, too, on that impact on the effectiveness 00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:12.690 of actually executing the mission when you're 00:16:12.690 --> 00:16:16.610 absent people who add value. Well, it's a no 00:16:16.610 --> 00:16:19.789 brainer whether you're talking about a specific 00:16:19.789 --> 00:16:24.950 group, a minority, a woman, anybody. This is 00:16:24.950 --> 00:16:27.529 our recruiting population. Why would you put 00:16:27.529 --> 00:16:32.049 self -imposed? barriers on the amount of people 00:16:32.049 --> 00:16:34.750 you can access, that your talent pool, because 00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:37.809 I want the most qualified individual in the cockpit 00:16:37.809 --> 00:16:40.809 flying the most advanced aircraft. I want a brief 00:16:40.809 --> 00:16:44.379 ram. leading the Space Force as it stands up 00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:47.799 that has a degree in this. Not the tallest person, 00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:51.500 the smartest person in the room. I want the strongest 00:16:51.500 --> 00:16:56.320 person that can physically do a job that requires 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.659 a lot of strength. I just want the most qualified 00:16:58.659 --> 00:17:00.940 individual. So it makes sense to me. But when 00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:04.140 it came to pregnancy, it seemed like a no -brainer 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:08.279 because the biggest complaint I got without people 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:10.980 understanding a very larger conversation, which 00:17:10.980 --> 00:17:14.279 I won't even try to address here, is that, oh, 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:17.259 what if you get pregnant? Because I feel that 00:17:17.259 --> 00:17:21.140 my, no, I know that my generation, because I'm 00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:23.200 kind of in between a couple generations, the, 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.539 you know, the Gen Xers and the Gen Zers, I'm 00:17:26.539 --> 00:17:29.420 kind of flat in the middle, was, it's cool as 00:17:29.420 --> 00:17:31.119 long as you don't have babies. Cool, you're here. 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.980 Just don't slow down. Like, don't take maternity 00:17:33.980 --> 00:17:36.240 leave or anything like that. Other than that. 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:38.779 Everything's cool, right? So that was the big 00:17:38.779 --> 00:17:41.099 barrier. So having a baby, especially a pilot 00:17:41.099 --> 00:17:44.460 that you physically have to do your job and being 00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:47.900 told you're grounded because of a 1960s chicken 00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:50.079 egg study, which I looked up in the back of the 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:52.680 actual medical so -called journal. It wasn't. 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:54.799 It was a recommendation by one individual who 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.660 sourced his own study and made that policy. So 00:17:58.660 --> 00:18:02.690 that's what was limiting women from flying. And 00:18:02.690 --> 00:18:05.190 that was holding our careers back. But we're 00:18:05.190 --> 00:18:07.549 always in a pilot crisis, right? We can't retain 00:18:07.549 --> 00:18:10.890 pilots. We're throwing $500 ,000 contracts at 00:18:10.890 --> 00:18:14.329 them now to stay in. And if you want to fly the 00:18:14.329 --> 00:18:16.829 majority of your pregnancy and free up a cockpit 00:18:16.829 --> 00:18:18.430 for someone to go downrange and you can take 00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:20.930 over the training missions, that just makes great 00:18:20.930 --> 00:18:23.809 business sense. And you maintain your currencies, 00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:26.759 your qualification. You can come right back in 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:30.259 the cockpit. No one loses any time. I flew all 00:18:30.259 --> 00:18:31.980 the way up until the point when they basically 00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:35.420 kicked me out. Stayed in the sim, which a lot 00:18:35.420 --> 00:18:37.059 of people do. They don't get a chance to fly 00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:39.059 for a couple months because they're doing staff 00:18:39.059 --> 00:18:41.880 duty or something. Had the baby, came back out, 00:18:41.980 --> 00:18:44.380 and six weeks later, it was back into the cockpit. 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.250 Now, that's not for everybody. I was in great 00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:50.009 condition. I had uncomplicated pregnancy. That 00:18:50.009 --> 00:18:52.170 doesn't happen for everybody. So I don't want 00:18:52.170 --> 00:18:54.210 to make anybody listening to this feel like, 00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:57.069 oh, well, you know, she said she went back to 00:18:57.069 --> 00:18:58.910 flying in six weeks. That's not how it is. But 00:18:58.910 --> 00:19:02.269 the majority of women that are in the Air Force 00:19:02.269 --> 00:19:06.289 that are flying are healthy individuals. They've 00:19:06.289 --> 00:19:09.549 been screened, especially the flyers. So if they 00:19:09.549 --> 00:19:13.299 are very in shape. very healthy, strong heart, 00:19:13.420 --> 00:19:15.700 strong eyes, strong everything, right? And they 00:19:15.700 --> 00:19:18.819 have a good pregnancy and they can fly. Why wouldn't 00:19:18.819 --> 00:19:21.440 you want that? That's like, I think I calculated, 00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:25.019 I pulled the data and I calculated there was 00:19:25.019 --> 00:19:28.720 400 flyers per year that were pregnant. If you 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.759 took them and only half of them volunteered to 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:34.640 fly half of their pregnancy, you would get years 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.880 of pilots back, like 30 instant pilots like that. 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.819 and man hours. So it just made great business 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:44.920 sense. And before we even get into the, should 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.200 women be flying pregnant, which is a totally 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.559 different conversation when we talk about noise, 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:54.039 exposure, radiation, those kinds of things. And 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:56.339 yes, you can measure them. And if you would actually 00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:59.259 check, you would see that it was probably fine 00:19:59.259 --> 00:20:03.319 for 90 % of the aircraft. But you have guys that 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.279 get injured. All the time. So pregnancy is not 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:09.660 an injury, but I mean, it's not like there's 00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:12.640 only one group of people within the air force 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:17.720 that are somehow not being able to fully perform 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:19.519 their mission. And I don't know if you have any 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.660 data on that, but that for Bree too, I mean, 00:20:22.660 --> 00:20:24.900 it might be something interesting. And you know, 00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:27.700 what's going to be real fun is that we, we pick 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:29.779 the thing that we're biased against. We all do. 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:31.759 We're all humans, right? I used to do it all 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.230 the time. I used to be really, bias against my 00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:37.690 own gender because that was the way the guys 00:20:37.690 --> 00:20:39.430 were acting. So that's the way I'm going to act 00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:41.789 because I was trying to fit in. I was trying 00:20:41.789 --> 00:20:45.809 to assimilate until I knew better. And the data 00:20:45.809 --> 00:20:48.210 I found was that we sit there and go, oh, pregnancy 00:20:48.210 --> 00:20:51.809 is the most obvious reason why women shouldn't 00:20:51.809 --> 00:20:54.329 be in these positions because we throw all this 00:20:54.329 --> 00:20:56.509 money in them and they just get out. But if you 00:20:56.509 --> 00:21:00.069 actually pull the data and look to see why women 00:21:00.069 --> 00:21:03.759 can't deploy and men can't deploy. men are more 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.779 likely not to be able to deploy downrange because 00:21:08.779 --> 00:21:14.259 of administrative, like a flag on their record, 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.880 which means if they give you certain codes, medical 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.299 codes, administrative codes, well, if they're 00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:23.799 in trouble, such as in Article 15. Those take 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:25.960 a very long time to work out. You got to do the 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:28.460 investigation before. You got to have the trial. 00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:30.519 You got to have all these things go through the 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.059 whole legal process that men are more likely 00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:36.720 at higher rates to be non -deployable than a 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.759 woman not being deployable for pregnancy. And 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.279 I'm talking percentages, not individual numbers. 00:21:42.339 --> 00:21:44.700 So you can't say that as the number of women 00:21:44.700 --> 00:21:46.319 increase, that's going to change because it's 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.700 not. So men are more likely not to be deployable 00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:52.599 because of administration problems because of 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.759 legal, and women are sometimes not deployable 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.259 because they choose to have biological babies. 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.420 So a lot of this gets down to readiness and how 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:08.000 do we have a ready, capable force? And there 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.640 were institutional barriers in the way preventing 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:16.190 the generation of readiness. And going all the 00:22:16.190 --> 00:22:18.650 way back to what I mentioned in Dakowitz in the 00:22:18.650 --> 00:22:23.210 1950s, coming forward to 2008, when the Department 00:22:23.210 --> 00:22:25.430 of the Air Force first stood up the Women's Initiative 00:22:25.430 --> 00:22:29.289 Team, and then later six other teams to address 00:22:29.289 --> 00:22:33.430 barriers to readiness, whether that was in retention, 00:22:33.930 --> 00:22:37.309 recruitment, military justice, or a host of other 00:22:37.309 --> 00:22:41.490 issues, it was about gathering the data and presenting 00:22:41.490 --> 00:22:47.440 a case. As to how to improve readiness, what 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.559 was it that you saw in groups like WIT and some 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.440 of the other work that you have done that made 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.240 that so effective and generate readiness? As 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:59.480 you say, just changing a regulation, you get 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:03.859 30 more man years of pilots fixing something 00:23:03.859 --> 00:23:06.240 that shouldn't have been a problem. What made 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:09.440 that work? I think it's one thing, the mission. 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:12.259 You work back from the mission and ask what makes 00:23:12.259 --> 00:23:15.819 sense. If it doesn't make sense from the mission, 00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:18.779 then do we need to have this requirement? And 00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:21.319 I found that 90 % of the initiatives we were 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:23.940 working on gave back, directly contributed to 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:27.980 enhancing the mission. For instance, the height 00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:33.180 issue. It takes years, you know, contracts for 00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:36.059 these aircraft. They take years and years to 00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:38.160 develop. So if you miss your window, you're out 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.539 of luck. And then we might have them for 30 or 00:23:40.539 --> 00:23:42.660 40 years and you're kind of stuck with that problem 00:23:42.660 --> 00:23:47.200 or a workaround until then. But so one way we 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:50.140 convinced the undersecretary of acquisition at 00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:52.880 the time was the data by just showing them that, 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.660 look, you have a standing height requirement 00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:58.880 for the back of the plane. The people who sit 00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.880 in the back, the linguists, the flying linguists 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:05.500 that intercept these missions, intercept, you 00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:09.180 know, any kind of transmissions overseas, they 00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:11.140 decode them and translate them and send them 00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:13.839 back to decision makers to make, you know, real 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:16.480 -time decisions. And we're like, why do they 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:20.359 have to be 5 '4"? Why can't they be 5 '2"? Their 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:22.940 only requirement is to egress the aircraft to 00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:26.779 be able to, like, go out the chute, right? And 00:24:26.779 --> 00:24:29.259 we researched it. We found that we just decided 00:24:29.259 --> 00:24:31.480 to cut and paste the same requirements for the 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:33.180 pilots and just put it in the back of the plane. 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:35.759 Yet at the same time, if you haven't noticed, 00:24:35.779 --> 00:24:38.599 people who speak other languages like Chinese 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:41.140 linguists and stuff like that, those are really 00:24:41.140 --> 00:24:44.460 high academic aptitudes. So it's really hard 00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:47.200 to teach it if you weren't raised with it. And 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:51.509 we had to lower. the standard for our language 00:24:51.509 --> 00:24:55.029 schools because we couldn't get enough qualified 00:24:55.029 --> 00:24:58.509 individuals academically to pass these schools. 00:24:58.650 --> 00:25:01.049 They were washing out at really high rates or 00:25:01.049 --> 00:25:03.329 retraining at really high rates, costing the 00:25:03.329 --> 00:25:06.390 government millions of dollars per year. Yet 00:25:06.390 --> 00:25:10.329 we had a lot of shorter stature women who... 00:25:10.650 --> 00:25:13.309 came from a home that spoke those languages fluently, 00:25:13.470 --> 00:25:15.609 but we just decided that they're five foot four 00:25:15.609 --> 00:25:18.150 and they couldn't get a waiver. There was not 00:25:18.150 --> 00:25:20.750 even a waiver process for the back of the plane 00:25:20.750 --> 00:25:22.789 like there was in the front of the plane. And 00:25:22.789 --> 00:25:24.829 we just said, no, thank you. So with a stroke 00:25:24.829 --> 00:25:28.289 of a pen that day, we were able to change the 00:25:28.289 --> 00:25:32.430 policy, accept some risk and lower it an inch 00:25:32.430 --> 00:25:34.829 or two to get some people at the door that day. 00:25:35.339 --> 00:25:38.000 And then we were able to go measure each of these 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.859 aircraft for a more accurate, like haze or switch 00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:42.279 or something they have to reach that we're not 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:44.559 aware of, and then create a standard that made 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:49.940 sense. So before we pivot to what's happening 00:25:49.940 --> 00:25:53.039 right now, or really in the past couple of years, 00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:56.559 I want to ask one more question about this data 00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.400 that you so often gathered because So many of 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.259 the decisions about readiness generation are 00:26:02.259 --> 00:26:04.980 data -driven. And while there might be some sort 00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:07.519 of emotional hook you use or a collection of 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.000 anecdotes that gets people to care, you don't 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.680 drive change in most instances without data. 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:18.440 And you've built your career and a lot of the 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:20.819 post -military work that you've done on something 00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:25.839 called hidden barriers. So when people are blind 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:30.930 to a problem, What do you do to justify the collection 00:26:30.930 --> 00:26:34.769 of that data to make sure that you can shine 00:26:34.769 --> 00:26:38.630 a light on a problem that is preventing readiness 00:26:38.630 --> 00:26:43.150 generation? So the data is hidden? Yeah, just 00:26:43.150 --> 00:26:47.289 like you described with these Chinese linguists, 00:26:47.369 --> 00:26:50.410 we were lowering standards in one area because 00:26:50.410 --> 00:26:53.210 we had never actually figured out that the issue 00:26:53.210 --> 00:26:58.289 was not tied to height. there was something else 00:26:58.289 --> 00:27:01.730 that we could do. So how do you, then let's, 00:27:01.730 --> 00:27:03.650 we can change it a little bit. How do you identify 00:27:03.650 --> 00:27:06.309 one of these hidden barriers that you then have 00:27:06.309 --> 00:27:09.670 to collect data to understand better? I think 00:27:09.670 --> 00:27:12.329 you have to understand what the actual problem 00:27:12.329 --> 00:27:16.430 is. And I'll give you a great example of, you 00:27:16.430 --> 00:27:19.559 hear a lot of anecdotal, like. you know, stories 00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.500 online. I would sit there in these forums with 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.339 like, I would join like, I don't want to seem 00:27:24.339 --> 00:27:26.599 like all crazy, but like 50 different forums 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.640 of different enlisted officer, different branches. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.940 And I wouldn't comment. I would just watch and 00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:34.640 see what the comments were because that usually 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.519 gave me an idea of the zip code. The problem 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.359 was going to be, but I mean, the very first thing 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:42.839 you got to do that when you start peeling back 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:46.680 that onion is, are you, what are you fixing? 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:51.509 Like. Are you looking at, for instance, the women 00:27:51.509 --> 00:27:54.390 in aircraft? Why is our numbers in the single 00:27:54.390 --> 00:27:58.670 digits 50 years after we could fly? Why is that? 00:27:58.869 --> 00:28:00.950 Are we just going to accept that women don't 00:28:00.950 --> 00:28:04.109 want to be pilots? Or are we going to look back 00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:07.609 and see what the data presents? And a lot of 00:28:07.609 --> 00:28:11.579 times, these stories are half -truths. And if 00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:14.480 you hear them and they keep coming back, there's 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.559 part of a truth in there. And that's where you 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:20.000 start looking and you start breaking that down. 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:23.920 That's where I found the 44 % for the women. 00:28:23.980 --> 00:28:26.839 And that was actually out there and buried in 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.000 somebody's ACSC paper. That's a paper that a 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.819 major writes at a school. But then you're like, 00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:36.680 I always say keep going because if you stop the 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:39.289 first. answer. I'm telling you, you need to go 00:28:39.289 --> 00:28:42.569 farther. You need to ask 10 more questions, because 00:28:42.569 --> 00:28:44.789 I watched the chief of staff at the Air Force 00:28:44.789 --> 00:28:48.069 ask about this, and he was assured that the waiver 00:28:48.069 --> 00:28:50.970 process had fixed it. If he asked one more question, 00:28:51.170 --> 00:28:55.130 he would have gotten to 74 percent, or he would 00:28:55.130 --> 00:28:58.549 have gotten, you know, Black women, or Congress 00:28:58.549 --> 00:29:00.609 made us do this. We didn't actually do it on 00:29:00.609 --> 00:29:04.269 our own, right? Like, that's because he thought, 00:29:04.410 --> 00:29:06.890 oh, the F -35 is all -inclusive of women now, 00:29:07.009 --> 00:29:08.950 so it must be fixed. Well, if you would have 00:29:08.950 --> 00:29:11.430 read the cliff notes in the back, Dr. Watson, 00:29:11.569 --> 00:29:14.430 who wrote the Anthropometrics Lab, basically 00:29:14.430 --> 00:29:18.430 Bible, states, you know, that Congress put the 00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:23.430 pressure on the Secretary of Defense and acquisitions 00:29:23.430 --> 00:29:26.710 who raised it to what it is today, and not because 00:29:26.710 --> 00:29:30.130 of their own accord. So listen to those stories. 00:29:30.829 --> 00:29:33.430 There's going to be a small amount of truth. 00:29:33.869 --> 00:29:37.009 You know, tie them together, look for the data, 00:29:37.109 --> 00:29:39.670 and then ask follow -up question after follow 00:29:39.670 --> 00:29:41.890 -up question, and then ask yourself, what is 00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:46.390 the real problem here? And that's really what 00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:49.410 we came down to in my bio here about, you know, 00:29:49.490 --> 00:29:51.910 passing pregnancy discrimination being recognized. 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:55.359 had nothing to do with 200 ,000 women. It started 00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:57.680 with Jess Ruttenberg really pissed off. Her ranking 00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:00.720 went down and didn't understand why. And she 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.240 thought it was because she didn't fly in her 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.140 third trimester. So she tried to fix the third 00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:06.119 trimester policy. And then she went to try to 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.640 like, and she kept going after these policies 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:11.259 and those policies were important. But the big 00:30:11.259 --> 00:30:14.900 issue was that Jess Ruttenberg couldn't file 00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:18.279 discrimination by. for herself or for anybody 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:20.299 else for grounding them without medical evidence 00:30:20.299 --> 00:30:23.480 because there was no protection. And that's ultimately 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:27.460 how we ended up with a short pilot going from 00:30:27.460 --> 00:30:32.599 here to Congress. You are speaking to my engineer's 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:35.900 heart when you start talking about root cause 00:30:35.900 --> 00:30:42.339 analysis. We're taught, ask why seven times. 00:30:42.460 --> 00:30:46.140 Then you have probably found the problem, not... 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.240 Why did this part fail? Well, that little piece 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:51.500 was broken. No, that's not the issue. There's 00:30:51.500 --> 00:30:54.619 something six more whys down the road that is 00:30:54.619 --> 00:30:58.299 really what caused the issue. And we can do that 00:30:58.299 --> 00:31:02.319 with so many issues across the military for readiness 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.599 generation. For any number of other issues, why 00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:07.880 aren't we retaining certain groups of people? 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.099 Why are we struggling to develop a skill set 00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:13.819 that's going to work so well on a modern battlefield? 00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:18.460 So asking why is critically important. And that's 00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:21.519 why I think we got in so much trouble over the 00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:24.660 past couple of years when these groups that asked 00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:28.539 why. or whether that's organizationally, like 00:31:28.539 --> 00:31:30.940 the barrier analysis working groups that we mentioned, 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:34.740 or that was inspector generals, that was other 00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:37.779 parts of the government that were there to ask 00:31:37.779 --> 00:31:43.480 why. We need the people that are willing to ask 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:48.240 those questions. So you, when some of this erasure 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.759 started happening, when... the wit was disbanded 00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:55.180 and stories were disappearing from people who 00:31:55.180 --> 00:31:58.660 brought valuable perspective you created a series 00:31:58.660 --> 00:32:04.680 of 404 not found that was highlighting what happened 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.740 when you erased our history to include that of 00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:11.700 the tuskegee airmen or as you mentioned the wasps 00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:14.779 you know these amazing americans that did incredible 00:32:14.779 --> 00:32:16.819 things their stories just disappeared because 00:32:16.819 --> 00:32:20.960 they were said to be just based solely on diversity. 00:32:21.460 --> 00:32:26.079 What is the impact of that kind of erasure on 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:29.140 our future force and our ability to meet challenges 00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:33.160 in the 21st century battlefield? Oh, it absolutely 00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:36.500 makes a huge impact. One, you should be threatened 00:32:36.500 --> 00:32:39.099 by your history. It's called censorship when 00:32:39.099 --> 00:32:41.319 you try to change the narrative of what actually 00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:44.079 happened. And the first thing I do when I research 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.369 anything... I don't care if I'm talking about 00:32:47.369 --> 00:32:50.849 an engineering design or a fight between my kids 00:32:50.849 --> 00:32:52.750 that happened and they come to me and they want 00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:56.150 me to mom to take their side is I need to know 00:32:56.150 --> 00:32:58.490 what happened before. I need to know what happened 00:32:58.490 --> 00:33:00.450 all the way up to the steps here, what worked, 00:33:00.450 --> 00:33:04.349 what didn't work. And we don't learn from our 00:33:04.349 --> 00:33:07.930 lessons from the past. We will repeat them. I 00:33:07.930 --> 00:33:11.589 don't mean to be cliche, but the height issue 00:33:11.589 --> 00:33:15.269 was tried to be addressed. many times, and it 00:33:15.269 --> 00:33:18.069 kept falling flat because there was not enough 00:33:18.069 --> 00:33:20.650 follow -through, which is what led me to start 00:33:20.650 --> 00:33:24.490 writing articles because I realized very early 00:33:24.490 --> 00:33:27.930 on that it was dangerous to allow, even though 00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:31.029 I fully believe in the military, the people in 00:33:31.029 --> 00:33:33.390 the military, I just don't believe in the politics 00:33:33.390 --> 00:33:36.230 that sometimes happen. There's a couple of nefarious 00:33:36.230 --> 00:33:39.470 individuals out there. But I believe in the men 00:33:39.470 --> 00:33:41.470 and women I serve with. And I think they want 00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:43.289 to do the right thing. They just need the right 00:33:43.289 --> 00:33:47.630 information. And I thought it was very risky 00:33:47.630 --> 00:33:52.009 to have all the data in one spot, meaning like 00:33:52.009 --> 00:33:54.869 let in the public affairs office only have the 00:33:54.869 --> 00:33:57.490 stories. And I get it from a PA perspective that, 00:33:57.529 --> 00:33:59.230 you know, you want to have the good news stories 00:33:59.230 --> 00:34:02.509 about height and pregnancy and flying and all 00:34:02.509 --> 00:34:05.029 the other barrier analysis groups. And, you know, 00:34:05.029 --> 00:34:07.970 to give them kudos, you want that. But when you 00:34:07.970 --> 00:34:10.909 do that, and then somebody, an individual, decides 00:34:10.909 --> 00:34:13.909 to say, we're going to bury all those stories, 00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:17.110 there goes the history. There goes that 44 % 00:34:17.110 --> 00:34:21.090 that I had to dig out from an air, you know, 00:34:21.110 --> 00:34:23.489 staff in college war paper. I'm starting to forget 00:34:23.489 --> 00:34:27.190 my ACSC acronyms here. But, you know, but it 00:34:27.190 --> 00:34:29.429 was buried. I couldn't find it when I did a Google 00:34:29.429 --> 00:34:32.849 search. So it made it very important to me to 00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:36.139 start to go to different. um organizations and 00:34:36.139 --> 00:34:40.159 talk about this outside one institution i mean 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:44.139 if you were going to fly a fly I went into IT 00:34:44.139 --> 00:34:47.119 a little bit when I first retired. And I went 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:49.039 into the cloud space. And you wouldn't want to 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:51.500 put all your data in one data center. You want 00:34:51.500 --> 00:34:53.880 to have it in multiple regions as a failsafe. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.199 That's the same thing I'm saying about these 00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:58.219 stories and censorship. So when we give it to 00:34:58.219 --> 00:35:00.780 one institution, that's pretty dangerous if they're 00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:02.780 going to say, and this institution just happens 00:35:02.780 --> 00:35:04.639 to be the U .S. government, so it's not just 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:08.809 the DoD. You know, it can be as... the Smithsonian 00:35:08.809 --> 00:35:11.070 because they're government funded. And you see 00:35:11.070 --> 00:35:12.889 what happens to some of the institutions that 00:35:12.889 --> 00:35:15.550 don't fall in line with some current administrative 00:35:15.550 --> 00:35:18.489 policies, such as DEI on those websites, that 00:35:18.489 --> 00:35:20.809 the funding is threatened. So people come in 00:35:20.809 --> 00:35:25.010 line. I think there's even on top of that, a 00:35:25.010 --> 00:35:27.550 greater harm because besides destroying history, 00:35:27.789 --> 00:35:30.889 you're destroying value. Right. And as you have 00:35:30.889 --> 00:35:34.730 eliminated certain groups, you're, what I would 00:35:34.730 --> 00:35:36.920 use. the phrase that I've kind of come up with 00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:40.500 lately of killing the mirror. So all institutions. 00:35:41.469 --> 00:35:44.590 need a mirror, need a means of looking back on 00:35:44.590 --> 00:35:46.730 their own conduct. You're both in the aviation 00:35:46.730 --> 00:35:49.309 space. That's what you grew up in. Can you imagine 00:35:49.309 --> 00:35:51.469 having an airline crash, which is probably the 00:35:51.469 --> 00:35:55.090 most investigated, meticulous kind of work that 00:35:55.090 --> 00:35:57.829 goes on, and imagine them saying, oh, somebody 00:35:57.829 --> 00:36:00.150 might find my mistake, so we're not going to 00:36:00.150 --> 00:36:02.130 do it that way anymore, and we're going to eliminate, 00:36:02.230 --> 00:36:04.869 you know, the NTSB, or we're going to eliminate 00:36:04.869 --> 00:36:07.920 that piece. And so I think to me, This notion 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.400 of what's gone on, because a lot of what you 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.619 described, Jessica, has transcended politics. 00:36:13.820 --> 00:36:16.599 It transcends Republican, Democratic administrations 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:19.119 over decades. But I think what we're seeing now 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:23.219 is markedly different because we are eliminating 00:36:23.219 --> 00:36:26.340 that ability to look at ourselves and look at 00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:29.570 our institutions. and effectively judge them 00:36:29.570 --> 00:36:32.889 with the elimination of 21 inspectors general, 00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:35.889 with elimination of so many high -ranking officers 00:36:35.889 --> 00:36:39.809 in the Department of Defense and programs, we're 00:36:39.809 --> 00:36:42.969 making much, much smaller that aperture that 00:36:42.969 --> 00:36:45.369 allows us and allows the Department of Defense 00:36:45.369 --> 00:36:48.369 to look at itself, the Congress to look at the 00:36:48.369 --> 00:36:50.829 Department of Defense to see if we're doing things 00:36:50.829 --> 00:36:53.630 in the most effective way to execute the mission. 00:36:53.750 --> 00:36:57.130 And to me, that's an even. braver danger. And 00:36:57.130 --> 00:36:59.889 I'd be curious as to what your thoughts are on 00:36:59.889 --> 00:37:06.110 that. Ruth isn't afraid of transparency. And 00:37:06.110 --> 00:37:09.070 if you're not willing to face our past mistakes 00:37:09.070 --> 00:37:12.090 and just want to make it look like that everything's 00:37:12.090 --> 00:37:15.949 been, women were instantly welcomed and, you 00:37:15.949 --> 00:37:19.000 know. Don't ask, don't tell, you know, oh, we 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.739 don't want to talk about those times before, 00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:24.840 you know. Then, you know, these are very bad 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:27.539 things for our institution and it doesn't make 00:37:27.539 --> 00:37:31.800 us look good, but we have to face them. And again, 00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.500 censorship, I think that's what we're dealing 00:37:33.500 --> 00:37:36.699 with. And when you see a little kid that's looking 00:37:36.699 --> 00:37:40.960 at. targeted ads on the tv they need to see representation 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:44.900 so if you're looking at you know rangers and 00:37:44.900 --> 00:37:47.000 all the cool stuff they do in movies and they're 00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:50.699 using that as a hype for their promotion you 00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:53.260 know for the army to enlist in that kind of thing 00:37:53.260 --> 00:37:56.079 and they don't see a single woman in there i 00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.480 mean what is The kids that are playing sports 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.260 in high school and middle school looking at that 00:38:00.260 --> 00:38:02.760 thinking, you know, when they enter, you know, 00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:04.739 is that something they're going to aspire to 00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:07.320 be like a ranger, right? So we need to make sure 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:10.639 that all that is represented of the recruiting 00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.900 population so that it's not just, we're not recruiting 00:38:13.900 --> 00:38:16.460 to one mindset. We're recruiting to multiple 00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:19.139 mindsets. And with multiple mindsets, we increase 00:38:19.139 --> 00:38:22.480 our talent pool. So diversity makes us stronger. 00:38:22.579 --> 00:38:25.500 So I don't care what. Unity makes us stronger. 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:28.320 Diversity makes us stronger. Having enough different 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:31.719 types of perspectives will make us stronger and 00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:35.059 more innovative. And that's true across the government. 00:38:35.260 --> 00:38:37.139 And it's true across the private sector. I know 00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:40.239 in the FBI, as under William Webster, who was 00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:44.539 the director when I came in, he undertook a concerted 00:38:44.539 --> 00:38:47.280 effort to make the FBI look more like the population 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:50.750 of the United States. And that made us much more 00:38:50.750 --> 00:38:53.050 effective at doing our jobs because going out 00:38:53.050 --> 00:38:55.789 into communities, the same in local law enforcement, 00:38:55.889 --> 00:38:58.610 going out into communities when they're seeing 00:38:58.610 --> 00:39:00.809 people who live in the community, who look like 00:39:00.809 --> 00:39:04.289 the community, the level of trust will start 00:39:04.289 --> 00:39:07.269 at a higher level. Trust still has to be earned. 00:39:07.429 --> 00:39:09.610 But if you're seeing somebody that's like, well, 00:39:09.710 --> 00:39:12.369 OK, here she comes from my neighborhood and I 00:39:12.369 --> 00:39:15.139 can tell that. Then there's a built -in level 00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:17.679 of trust and a belief that there can be two -way 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:20.619 communication and not one -way communication. 00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:23.139 And I think that goes to the effectiveness of 00:39:23.139 --> 00:39:26.639 every single institution. And, you know, the 00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:30.480 military's decision to start the women investigative 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:33.780 teams, the women teams that engaged in Afghanistan. 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:38.059 It's well documented how valuable that was to 00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:40.260 the intelligence that was collected, the understanding 00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:42.239 of the culture, the understanding of what was 00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:44.880 going on in villages and the community, thereby 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:47.880 making people safer or allowing better strategic 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.179 plans and tactical plans to be developed to ensure 00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:54.860 the safety and security of everyone. Yeah, absolutely. 00:39:55.019 --> 00:40:00.639 And it's important. It's important that we... 00:40:01.710 --> 00:40:04.829 I think people are concerned when we say that 00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:07.230 we look like each other, you know, as a force, 00:40:07.349 --> 00:40:09.989 and you're giving a good case on why that is 00:40:09.989 --> 00:40:11.730 important, that people make the assumption that 00:40:11.730 --> 00:40:14.590 we are promoting based on quotas. We're not. 00:40:14.829 --> 00:40:18.150 We're just increasing the talent pool, and whoever 00:40:18.150 --> 00:40:20.630 is the most qualified, you're casting a wider 00:40:20.630 --> 00:40:24.510 net. I am never going to put somebody in a cockpit 00:40:24.510 --> 00:40:29.550 that isn't 100 % in my confidence able to do 00:40:29.550 --> 00:40:34.099 the job. You either can or you cannot. You can 00:40:34.099 --> 00:40:36.440 land on center line or you cannot. You can land 00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:39.719 on speed or you cannot. Yet we get this notion 00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:42.900 that we are not qualified, that we did not earn 00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:46.599 it, the DEI. And I remember, because before this 00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:50.300 podcast started, I was reflecting on where I 00:40:50.300 --> 00:40:53.960 met Bree. I think I knew who she was for a very 00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:56.380 long time because her and I were running circles 00:40:56.380 --> 00:40:58.840 around each other in different, like the space, 00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:02.619 but never in the same room. And one day she was 00:41:02.619 --> 00:41:04.800 launching this, I think it was your first book, 00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:08.059 Brie. And she was telling stories, just like 00:41:08.059 --> 00:41:09.719 Hidden Berries tells other people's stories. 00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.719 She was telling service member stories. And it 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.539 was at the bar down the street at Freddy's from 00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:18.300 my house. And I was like, kids, like it's a family 00:41:18.300 --> 00:41:19.980 establishment. Like, I don't you think I took 00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:22.260 my kids to a bar? Like, you know, Sweet Home 00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:25.719 Alabama, you have a baby in the bar. I was like, 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:27.559 come on, y 'all. We're going to go meet Brie 00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:29.199 in person. And that's where I met your lovely 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:31.840 wife. And we chatted because, you know, you were 00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:33.440 like a celebrity at the time. I really want to 00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:34.960 talk to you about your book. So I talked to your 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.400 wife and I got a couple. I said hi to you for 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:39.719 like half a second. And then I was like, OK, 00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:41.400 I'll send her an email later. Maybe she'll like 00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.030 want to. hang out with me or something. So, because 00:41:44.030 --> 00:41:48.489 I just wanted to get to know her. Well, I'm so 00:41:48.489 --> 00:41:52.389 glad we did get to know one another. It was a 00:41:52.389 --> 00:41:54.489 pleasure getting to understand your work and 00:41:54.489 --> 00:41:57.750 the effort and the dedication that you and so 00:41:57.750 --> 00:42:01.650 many others put in to reduce these barriers, 00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:04.630 to make sure that everyone could serve to their 00:42:04.630 --> 00:42:06.849 full potential. And as you've talked about over 00:42:06.849 --> 00:42:10.650 and over again, that we widen the aperture. on 00:42:10.650 --> 00:42:14.429 who can serve, because there is talent everywhere. 00:42:14.670 --> 00:42:17.530 And it is by embracing that talent, bringing 00:42:17.530 --> 00:42:19.909 in people that want to serve, that we actually 00:42:19.909 --> 00:42:23.449 generate a more ready, more capable force. But 00:42:23.449 --> 00:42:27.070 I do want to look forward a little bit before 00:42:27.070 --> 00:42:31.010 we close. And after retirement, you've done a 00:42:31.010 --> 00:42:33.489 lot of work to continue this work, whether that's 00:42:33.489 --> 00:42:37.710 with the Women in the Services Coalition. incorporated 00:42:37.710 --> 00:42:40.070 or the work that you've done with Level Up to 00:42:40.070 --> 00:42:43.329 make sure another generation can speak and can 00:42:43.329 --> 00:42:48.449 fly. But there's this whole cloud over it of 00:42:48.449 --> 00:42:52.389 a silencing effect, a chilling effect. And you've 00:42:52.389 --> 00:42:56.289 said you felt a duty to speak out on behalf of 00:42:56.289 --> 00:43:00.699 others that couldn't. What is that duty? for 00:43:00.699 --> 00:43:03.900 a veteran? How do we continue to speak out despite 00:43:03.900 --> 00:43:06.519 what we see happening to people like Senator 00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.360 Kelly or seeing people sometimes in uniform still 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.820 doing it, as we recently saw with Major Watson 00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:14.340 on the steps of the Capitol? Oh, wow. Yeah. What 00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:18.320 is it that veterans, people that have sworn that 00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:22.039 oath to the Constitution, have that duty to speak? 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:25.059 What can we do for others to make sure that our 00:43:25.059 --> 00:43:27.679 Constitution holds? I don't think you have to 00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:30.099 be a veteran to necessarily be the one that speaks 00:43:30.099 --> 00:43:33.019 out. But I do think it helps considerably because 00:43:33.019 --> 00:43:37.239 there comes a point when you have to ask yourself 00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:41.039 what your values are and what you swore an oath 00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:45.260 to and if those are the same thing. And that 00:43:45.260 --> 00:43:49.139 can be very different from person to person with 00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:53.159 their experience. With veterans, we get our... 00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:56.000 freedom of speech back. We don't completely lose 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.519 it in the military, but it is heavily censored 00:43:58.519 --> 00:44:01.320 when we are in the service, and rightfully so 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:04.980 for a lot of good reasons. But that can be weaponized, 00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:07.699 as I think we have seen in the last couple of 00:44:07.699 --> 00:44:11.679 years, that when you're able to say something 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.920 and you should say something, especially I get... 00:44:16.460 --> 00:44:19.699 I think the first two months I was getting something 00:44:19.699 --> 00:44:22.280 like 30, 40 emails a day because I had made myself 00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:27.880 so visible years prior that, and I was so visible. 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.139 Like that's how I used to hide behind a rock. 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:33.239 And then I realized I had to be the face because 00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:36.219 I was at the end of my career and I was willing 00:44:36.219 --> 00:44:38.920 to put it all on the line. Now that's very easy 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:40.900 for me to say because I was in a financially 00:44:40.900 --> 00:44:43.880 in a situation when I could do that. Now imagine. 00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:47.460 You're younger. You don't have your guaranteed 00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:50.440 retirement. And you're a single income family 00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:53.840 or you're a single parent, right? The risk, you're 00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:56.039 not just taking that risk for yourself. You're 00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:57.980 taking that risk for your entire family, your 00:44:57.980 --> 00:45:01.699 spouse, your children, your partner, those things. 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:05.570 I was in a good space. And from that point, I 00:45:05.570 --> 00:45:07.989 realized that the greatest service I could ever 00:45:07.989 --> 00:45:11.150 do, other than my proud service in Iraq and Afghanistan 00:45:11.150 --> 00:45:13.809 and all the missions I flew, and I'm very proud 00:45:13.809 --> 00:45:16.690 of those, and I value them very highly, is to 00:45:16.690 --> 00:45:19.489 open the door wider for those who are coming 00:45:19.489 --> 00:45:21.889 behind me, regardless of what they look like 00:45:21.889 --> 00:45:24.769 and who they are, if they can get the job done. 00:45:24.949 --> 00:45:27.289 And I said, that's what I'm going to do. And 00:45:27.289 --> 00:45:29.510 I want people to understand if they're listening 00:45:29.510 --> 00:45:33.380 to this. I'm not saying... You look away when 00:45:33.380 --> 00:45:36.019 something is very incredibly unethical or illegal. 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:40.940 But I do say that there is a certain point that 00:45:40.940 --> 00:45:46.599 sometimes surviving is the ultimate rebellion 00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:50.719 when you're not wanted. You make it to the top. 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.219 Because I can voice my concern all day long. 00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:56.639 And maybe, maybe I can make some change. But 00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:01.170 until we have people that look like us. and think 00:46:01.170 --> 00:46:03.889 like us, that get to the top of the food chain, 00:46:04.110 --> 00:46:07.070 they're the ones that have the ability and authority 00:46:07.070 --> 00:46:09.710 to make these policy differences. So sometimes 00:46:09.710 --> 00:46:12.329 we have to play along to get along to a point. 00:46:12.469 --> 00:46:14.869 And I'm not going to say what that line is for 00:46:14.869 --> 00:46:17.050 you. It looks different for everybody. For me, 00:46:17.090 --> 00:46:22.619 I said, my ego wants to make 06. And I know I'm 00:46:22.619 --> 00:46:24.960 going to be rocking some boats here, and I did, 00:46:25.099 --> 00:46:28.139 and I really aggravated some people. But when 00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:32.039 I look back at my career, even if I just got 00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:34.440 one more person in the door, and I know I've 00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:36.780 gotten considerably more than one person, it 00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:39.099 was all worth it. So that's what it looks like 00:46:39.099 --> 00:46:44.340 to me. Well, as you said, you have gotten a whole 00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:46.880 lot of people in the door. And for so many people, 00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:51.880 it is about that legacy that we leave. And that 00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:54.880 really is the legacy of this country and what 00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:58.139 is being asked of all of us, that we leave it 00:46:58.139 --> 00:47:01.019 in a better place. We do the work that was started 00:47:01.019 --> 00:47:04.599 to form that more perfect union, to live up to 00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:07.960 our oaths to the Constitution. And you have certainly 00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:12.820 done that both in uniform and across your career 00:47:12.820 --> 00:47:18.679 after your time in service. Jess, thank you for 00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:22.539 joining us. It was a pleasure. Lauren, thank 00:47:22.539 --> 00:47:25.099 you for bringing me into the Steady State family 00:47:25.099 --> 00:47:29.900 and welcoming me to this podcast. And to everyone 00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:32.820 listening, thanks for joining us for this episode 00:47:32.820 --> 00:47:35.179 of the Steady State Sentinel. We hope today's 00:47:35.179 --> 00:47:37.500 conversation gave you something to think about, 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.340 and we'd love to hear from you. What resonated 00:47:40.340 --> 00:47:42.940 with you? What questions did it raise? And what 00:47:42.940 --> 00:47:45.599 topics would you like to hear us explore in future 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.409 episodes? You can find us on Substack, YouTube, 00:47:48.510 --> 00:47:51.349 and across our social media platforms. Please 00:47:51.349 --> 00:47:53.869 like, subscribe, and share this episode. Your 00:47:53.869 --> 00:47:56.449 feedback matters, and it helps shape our conversations. 00:47:56.929 --> 00:48:00.210 Until next time, thanks for listening. I'm Brie 00:48:00.210 --> 00:48:06.210 Fram, still standing watch. Thank you for listening 00:48:06.210 --> 00:48:09.929 to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. Don't miss 00:48:09.929 --> 00:48:12.989 out on more insights and exposés from America's 00:48:12.989 --> 00:48:16.519 premier global security experts. Also, subscribe 00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:21.559 to our Substack at substack .com slash at SteadyState1 00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:24.699 and follow our social media and join us right 00:48:24.699 --> 00:48:26.440 here next week for another exciting edition. 00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:30.079 The Steady State is a nonprofit organization 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:33.099 working to sustain our democracy and national 00:48:33.099 --> 00:48:36.860 security. Join us and support our mission by 00:48:36.860 --> 00:48:40.099 visiting www .thesteadysate .org.