WEBVTT - Generated by AI 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.299 Something is changing in our country, and most 00:00:03.299 --> 00:00:11.820 people feel it before they can explain it. Hello, 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:14.099 you're listening to the Steady State Sentinel, 00:00:14.300 --> 00:00:17.379 from the Steady State. I'm Jim Lawler, a former 00:00:17.379 --> 00:00:20.800 senior CIA operations officer. I've worked some 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:22.859 of the most sensitive counterproliferation and 00:00:22.859 --> 00:00:25.760 espionage cases in the agency's history. And 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.219 today, I'm privileged to be joined by Ambassador 00:00:28.219 --> 00:00:32.240 Charles A. Ray, who brings a rare dual perspective 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:35.240 to national security affairs because he served 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:38.119 20 years, first as a U .S. Army officer, including 00:00:38.119 --> 00:00:41.740 two combat tours in Vietnam, before he embarked 00:00:41.740 --> 00:00:44.020 on a 30 -year career in the Foreign Service. 00:00:44.340 --> 00:00:47.619 He served as U .S. Ambassador to Cambodia. and 00:00:47.619 --> 00:00:50.500 to Zimbabwe and was the first U .S. Consul General 00:00:50.500 --> 00:00:53.859 to Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam and also served 00:00:53.859 --> 00:00:57.000 as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:00.719 POW Missing Personnel Affairs, which oversees 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.280 efforts to account for Americans missing in action 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.459 from World War II through the most recent conflicts. 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:10.099 He is also a prolific author. And when I say 00:01:10.099 --> 00:01:12.939 prolific, I want to emphasize the word prolific 00:01:12.939 --> 00:01:15.959 of more than 400 fiction and nonfiction works 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:18.700 spanning leadership, history, and diplomacy, 00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:21.799 as well as a hell of a lot of good Westerns. 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:24.359 And he remains an active voice on foreign policy 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:26.400 through the Foreign Policy Research Institute. 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.219 I think it's fair to say that Ambassador Wray 00:01:29.219 --> 00:01:32.299 is what I would fairly describe as a polymath, 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:35.200 somebody equally talented in a number of very, 00:01:35.299 --> 00:01:39.959 very, very different. areas. So, Charlie, if 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:44.120 I can call you that. Please do. Okay. I noticed 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:48.099 you had a genuinely apolitical career. You served 00:01:48.099 --> 00:01:51.439 as an ambassador from both a Republican and a 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:54.700 Democratic president. Which presidents were those 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:57.480 and what was that dual experience? How did that 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.879 teach you about serving across party lines? Well, 00:02:02.099 --> 00:02:05.920 I mean, actually, I can go back. Beyond that, 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:10.259 because my tour as consul general in Ho Chi Minh 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:13.419 City was actually, even though it wasn't a political 00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:16.300 appointment, because of the nature of our relationship 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:21.080 with Vietnam at the time, it had a lot of political 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:24.520 attention and a lot of politics attached to it. 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:31.900 But I served as ambassador to Cambodia under 00:02:31.900 --> 00:02:36.240 President Bush. President Clinton was the ambassador 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.099 when I was consul general in Ho Chi Minh City. 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:43.539 And when I went to Zimbabwe in 2009, Barack Obama 00:02:43.539 --> 00:02:48.840 was president. But I like to tell people my army 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.699 career started in 1962 under John F. Kennedy. 00:02:53.060 --> 00:02:57.560 And I left government service in 2012 under Barack 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:03.210 Obama. So I went from, I like to say. you know, 00:03:03.210 --> 00:03:06.310 a Democrat to a Democrat, and there was a whole 00:03:06.310 --> 00:03:08.990 lot of Republicans in between, and it really 00:03:08.990 --> 00:03:11.030 didn't make a lot of difference in the work I 00:03:11.030 --> 00:03:14.610 had to do or the way I did it because, you know, 00:03:14.610 --> 00:03:17.289 I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution, 00:03:17.310 --> 00:03:21.650 and I took it seriously then, and I still take 00:03:21.650 --> 00:03:24.830 it serious. Well, I agree with you. You know, 00:03:24.909 --> 00:03:27.729 Charlie, when I was in the CIA for 25 years, 00:03:28.300 --> 00:03:31.520 I never once knew or cared what the party affiliation 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:33.460 or political beliefs of any of my colleagues 00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:35.340 were. I just didn't think it was any of my business, 00:03:35.379 --> 00:03:37.939 nor did any of my colleagues think it was. Did 00:03:37.939 --> 00:03:41.199 you share that feeling? Oh, yeah. I mean, I know 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:46.919 looking back now, I know that in the military 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.520 and in my early time in the Foreign Service, 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:54.539 I worked closely with people who I am sure were 00:03:54.539 --> 00:03:58.020 of a different political persuasion. But in the 00:03:58.020 --> 00:04:00.300 trenches, you know, you really don't have time 00:04:00.300 --> 00:04:02.340 to worry about how a guy voted. You want to know 00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:05.800 how he acts when the chips are down. And that's 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:08.699 really all during my entire career that ever 00:04:08.699 --> 00:04:13.759 mattered is do people get the job done? Is this 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.160 person doing what they're supposed to do and 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.519 the way they're supposed to do it? I never paid 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:21.860 a lot. In fact, I'll be quite honest with you. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:26.250 I never really became political until 2016. That's 00:04:26.250 --> 00:04:30.529 exactly my thing, too. I used to be, if I can 00:04:30.529 --> 00:04:33.230 say this, I used to be what is described as a 00:04:33.230 --> 00:04:35.290 moderate Republican, and they don't exist anymore. 00:04:35.990 --> 00:04:39.230 So, you know, now I kind of call myself an independent, 00:04:39.410 --> 00:04:42.149 leaning Democrat most of the time. But it's really, 00:04:42.250 --> 00:04:44.910 I agree with you. We served the national security. 00:04:45.129 --> 00:04:49.709 We upheld the Constitution. And the particular 00:04:49.709 --> 00:04:51.810 political administration really didn't enter 00:04:51.810 --> 00:04:59.110 into it. blow your head off. When I registered 00:04:59.110 --> 00:05:01.790 to vote for the first time when I turned 18, 00:05:02.129 --> 00:05:06.569 actually, I think they dropped the age to 18 00:05:06.569 --> 00:05:11.649 when I was still 17. But I actually voted for 00:05:11.649 --> 00:05:15.769 the first five elections I voted in as a Republican 00:05:15.769 --> 00:05:19.050 because I grew up in East Texas, where when I 00:05:19.050 --> 00:05:21.269 was a kid growing up, the guys burning crosses 00:05:21.269 --> 00:05:23.629 and wearing hoods were all Democrats. That's 00:05:23.629 --> 00:05:30.240 right. And it was only, I would say, probably 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:36.000 around the mid, the late 90s that I saw things 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.980 that were happening in my home state of Texas. 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.240 And just nationally with the Republican Party 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.879 that I started to have some feelings of anxiety. 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:48.600 So I became, like you, I became an independent 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:52.149 first. But then I decided that I really wanted 00:05:52.149 --> 00:05:54.550 to be able to participate in the whole process. 00:05:54.589 --> 00:05:56.470 In most states, if you're an independent, you 00:05:56.470 --> 00:06:00.050 can't vote in primaries. So I registered reluctantly 00:06:00.050 --> 00:06:05.310 as a Democrat. I guess I was probably a conservative 00:06:05.310 --> 00:06:08.129 Democrat for years until, like I said, 2016, 00:06:08.490 --> 00:06:11.689 when the rails came off. And I just realized 00:06:11.689 --> 00:06:16.149 that being sort of a quasi -anything doesn't 00:06:16.149 --> 00:06:20.379 count anymore. You have to... basically make 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:24.240 a statement of what you are and be firm with 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.800 it, or you're really complicit in the things 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.560 that go wrong. So speaking of 2016, Charlie, 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.480 what specifically set your warning bells off 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.779 after Trump's first election? Flashback to 2016. 00:06:36.779 --> 00:06:41.860 I think I started to get worried before the election. 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:43.879 I mean, it's just some of the things that he 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:47.100 was saying on the campaign trail bothered me. 00:06:47.660 --> 00:06:51.579 Just his that bullying attitude that he took 00:06:51.579 --> 00:06:58.279 in debates and the way he basically just ignored 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:03.360 all norms of civilized civil behavior. I just 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:06.759 that bothered me because whether I agreed with 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:08.980 the president or not, whether I voted for that 00:07:08.980 --> 00:07:12.160 president or not, all of our even Nixon to a 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:15.639 great degree were presidential. I mean, they 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:20.129 actually. conducted themselves publicly in ways 00:07:20.129 --> 00:07:26.449 that reflected the majesty and the gravitas of 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:29.410 the position. And this guy just struck, he sounded 00:07:29.410 --> 00:07:35.509 a lot like a sideshow barker at a carnival rather 00:07:35.509 --> 00:07:38.209 than someone who's aspiring to the highest office 00:07:38.209 --> 00:07:40.529 in the land. And then when he got elected and 00:07:40.529 --> 00:07:43.550 started actually acting on this and doing things 00:07:43.550 --> 00:07:47.980 that You just don't do, as my grandmother would 00:07:47.980 --> 00:07:50.199 say, that just ain't the way you act in good 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:55.079 company. That was it. I mean, when he actually 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:57.899 started delivering on some of the outrageous 00:07:57.899 --> 00:08:01.000 things or trying to deliver on the outrageous 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:04.540 things he said on the campaign trail, I knew 00:08:04.540 --> 00:08:07.740 we were in trouble. So I've heard you describe 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:11.560 some of the... President Trump's first term cabinet 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:14.839 members as guardrails. Which officials do you 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:17.279 have in mind when you used that description? 00:08:17.579 --> 00:08:20.120 And do you think that that kind of guardrail 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:24.220 exists in the second term? Well, guardrails, 00:08:24.220 --> 00:08:27.540 I would say, honestly, while I totally disagree 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:31.079 with his politics, Mike Pence, his vice president, 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.700 was a guardrail. I mean, here was a guy, I don't 00:08:33.700 --> 00:08:35.820 agree with his politics, but he took his oath 00:08:35.820 --> 00:08:38.940 seriously. And when he was asked to do something 00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:43.460 that was blatantly illegal, he put his foot down 00:08:43.460 --> 00:08:48.440 and said no. Each of his secretaries of defense, 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:53.279 I felt, were people who would go in directions 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:56.519 I would disagree with. But when it reached that 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:00.779 line in the sand, they put their feet down. Even 00:09:00.779 --> 00:09:06.590 his attorneys general were people who... You 00:09:06.590 --> 00:09:11.169 know, I mean, they were a little on the bent 00:09:11.169 --> 00:09:14.649 side in terms of where I would like to see that 00:09:14.649 --> 00:09:18.570 position go, but they drew the line at just outright, 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:23.669 outrageous illegal behavior. And I think he learned 00:09:23.669 --> 00:09:25.970 his lesson. I mean, it's obvious. I saw this 00:09:25.970 --> 00:09:29.769 when the first appointment list or the first 00:09:29.769 --> 00:09:33.289 list of people he was planning to appoint came 00:09:33.289 --> 00:09:37.340 out this time. I saw that he was making sure 00:09:37.340 --> 00:09:40.600 that that wasn't going to be a problem in his 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.279 second administration. He basically has appointed 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:48.259 people who do what he says, the way he says do 00:09:48.259 --> 00:09:52.039 it, regardless of how ridiculous it makes them 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:55.379 look, and regardless of how obviously blatantly 00:09:55.379 --> 00:09:59.200 illegal, immoral, and just plain wrong it is. 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:02.480 So he's basically stocked his cabinet with yes 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:05.769 people, sycophants. Yeah, somebody explained 00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:10.669 to him what a kakistocrat was, and he made darn 00:10:10.669 --> 00:10:14.850 sure that that's all he interviewed for jobs. 00:10:15.049 --> 00:10:18.169 I mean, he has a complete confederacy of dunces 00:10:18.169 --> 00:10:20.870 this time. That's a good term, confederacy of 00:10:20.870 --> 00:10:24.870 dunces, yeah. I understand you have heard some 00:10:24.870 --> 00:10:28.070 overtly partisan statements from some active 00:10:28.070 --> 00:10:31.200 duty military during your consulting work. That's 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.659 rather provocative, and it's an important observation. 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:37.899 Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, I mean, I'll 00:10:37.899 --> 00:10:41.639 just give you one example. After I retired, I 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.240 did consulting for the Joint Chiefs of Staff 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:48.139 and for the Department of the Army on training 00:10:48.139 --> 00:10:53.659 extensively. And on one of the training contracts, 00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:57.000 I was the subject matter expert for pre -deployment 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:01.070 training for units that were going overseas in 00:11:01.070 --> 00:11:03.889 non -Title X assignments where they would have 00:11:03.889 --> 00:11:08.190 to work with embassies. My job was as a subject 00:11:08.190 --> 00:11:11.289 matter expert to play the role of the ambassador 00:11:11.289 --> 00:11:15.529 or some other senior civilian official in scenarios 00:11:15.529 --> 00:11:19.809 to try and school them on the proper way to conduct 00:11:19.809 --> 00:11:22.830 themselves as military to be able to get their 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:25.789 job done, but at the same time to recognize that 00:11:25.789 --> 00:11:30.299 they were under the ultimate authority of a civilian 00:11:30.299 --> 00:11:32.860 who was not part of the dod chain of command 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:37.460 there was this one colonel he's retired now and 00:11:37.460 --> 00:11:39.860 i don't even remember his name but he was and 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:44.779 this guy was like this guy was like a a b movie 00:11:44.779 --> 00:11:50.120 villain from central casting uh tobacco chew 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:52.000 i mean he would do briefings he'd hold have a 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.120 little tin can in his hand briefings he's chewed 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:57.159 tobacco and he would literally pause and briefings 00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.820 to spit tobacco juice into a tin can in his hand 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:02.960 and when i first met him you know i try not to 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:06.259 stereotype people or at least not to act on it 00:12:06.259 --> 00:12:10.360 i i just sort of looked at this guy and thought 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:13.659 oh i have a feeling i've known people like him 00:12:13.659 --> 00:12:16.440 when i was in uniform this guy is going to be 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.840 trouble he turned out to be trouble and it it 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:24.009 culminated He would, from the podium briefing, 00:12:24.190 --> 00:12:27.549 make overtly political partisan statements. And 00:12:27.549 --> 00:12:31.950 he would knock. I mean, he just had a—he didn't 00:12:31.950 --> 00:12:36.210 like Obama. He didn't like Biden. He hated Hillary 00:12:36.210 --> 00:12:39.269 Clinton. And he let that be known in briefings 00:12:39.269 --> 00:12:41.970 in front of a room full of military officers 00:12:41.970 --> 00:12:46.389 and civilians, including all of us contractors. 00:12:47.909 --> 00:12:53.110 And one day— When I had just finished an exercise 00:12:53.110 --> 00:12:57.049 and with my team of other contractors, we were 00:12:57.049 --> 00:13:01.389 doing a casual debrief outside of the venue. 00:13:02.830 --> 00:13:07.110 And I made, I don't remember what I said, but 00:13:07.110 --> 00:13:09.909 he happened to be walking by. It apparently set 00:13:09.909 --> 00:13:13.470 him off and he came in and just took over the 00:13:13.470 --> 00:13:17.250 briefing and started lambasting the current. 00:13:17.850 --> 00:13:20.029 And at that time, it was the Obama administration 00:13:20.029 --> 00:13:24.370 just basically venting, and I had had enough. 00:13:24.529 --> 00:13:27.450 I mean, as a contractor, I had no control over 00:13:27.450 --> 00:13:31.009 anything. So I basically shut him down. I said, 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:33.850 you know, you're talking nonsense, and you really 00:13:33.850 --> 00:13:38.529 should stop. This is not the way you as a U .S. 00:13:38.549 --> 00:13:41.529 Army colonel should be conducting yourself in 00:13:41.529 --> 00:13:45.110 the presence of enlisted people and other folks. 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:50.519 He goes red in the face. And I mean, I didn't 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.259 raise my voice or use profanity. I just basically 00:13:53.259 --> 00:13:55.179 said it in the same tone as I'm talking now. 00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:00.200 He got red faced and stormed off. I was informed 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.440 by the head of the company that I had provided 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.500 the contractors after that, that I wouldn't be 00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:08.659 deployed there anymore. I bet you that didn't 00:14:08.659 --> 00:14:11.480 bother you. Not really. I mean, I was only doing 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.100 it because it was interesting work and I enjoyed 00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:16.909 it. It wasn't like I. was being economically 00:14:16.909 --> 00:14:20.509 or financially deprived but it did just the idea 00:14:20.509 --> 00:14:26.009 that this colonel who was overtly partisan and 00:14:26.009 --> 00:14:29.090 and breaking every rule in the book i mean when 00:14:29.090 --> 00:14:33.029 i was when i was in the military even then i'm 00:14:33.029 --> 00:14:35.149 sure there were people like that would never 00:14:35.149 --> 00:14:37.950 dare get up in in a briefing in front of a room 00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:40.230 full of military people and talk like that because 00:14:40.230 --> 00:14:42.929 they would be on the carpet This guy didn't seem 00:14:42.929 --> 00:14:45.769 to think it was any problem at all. Interesting 00:14:45.769 --> 00:14:49.070 story on that. He retired shortly after that 00:14:49.070 --> 00:14:53.049 and came to work for the same company that I 00:14:53.049 --> 00:14:55.409 was working for, and he lasted one deployment 00:14:55.409 --> 00:14:58.639 before they fired him. Yeah, I'm not surprised. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.519 I imagine you were horrified a few months ago 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:04.860 when our Secretary of Defense, I won't call him 00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:07.039 a Secretary of War, I refuse to use that term. 00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:09.720 You mean that former platoon leader? Yeah, called 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.899 back every flag rank officer for that mass meeting 00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:15.360 at the Pentagon. That must have horrified you. 00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:20.480 I just have to tell you, honestly, I found it 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:24.519 hard to believe that they would actually do that. 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.299 And then when I saw the news clips of it, it 00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:33.159 was depressing. And, of course, you see the outcome 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.039 of that. I mean, literally people in the military, 00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:39.960 I'm not all that surprised at what they have 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.019 done to the State Department. I mean, the State 00:15:42.019 --> 00:15:44.200 Department has always been the whipping boy. 00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:49.220 And when you were in the agency, you worked with 00:15:49.220 --> 00:15:51.200 State. You know, State Department people are 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:55.360 conflict avoidance types. Right. But when I saw 00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:00.059 the way they were reassigning and firing and 00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:03.039 forcing into retirement senior military people, 00:16:03.179 --> 00:16:08.159 it worried me. And when they started the Caribbean 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.940 boat strikes and some of the things that I see 00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:16.080 happening, it really, it's depressing. I mean, 00:16:16.100 --> 00:16:19.720 as a former military person, I find it just absolutely 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:24.190 gut -wrenching that you have people. who are 00:16:24.190 --> 00:16:29.570 following these orders, and if the news is correct 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:32.190 that I'm seeing, who are actually some of them 00:16:32.190 --> 00:16:34.669 going in front of Congress and trying to defend 00:16:34.669 --> 00:16:39.950 this. I just don't, I have no words to describe 00:16:39.950 --> 00:16:45.250 it that would be polite words. The way I feel 00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:47.610 when I see things like that, I cannot express 00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:52.159 in polite company. I understand. So turning to 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:55.980 another sensitive subject, I believe you witnessed 00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:59.960 or watched January 6th live. What was that experience? 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.360 What was that experience like for someone like 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:05.099 yourself who spent decades representing American 00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:13.000 democracy abroad? You know, I'm sort of a weirdo 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.940 in a way. I don't watch war movies anymore because... 00:17:17.210 --> 00:17:19.990 Sometimes I actually am brought to tears when 00:17:19.990 --> 00:17:25.730 I watch a really well -made war movie. I don't 00:17:25.730 --> 00:17:29.210 cry on rom -coms and all of these other soapy, 00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:37.210 soppy TV offerings. I found myself in tears watching 00:17:37.210 --> 00:17:40.309 that. I mean, I couldn't tear myself away from 00:17:40.309 --> 00:17:46.019 the screen, but I just, I don't. Even to this 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:48.440 day, I have a hard time finding the words to 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:55.500 describe how that felt. Watching something happen 00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:58.759 in this country at the U .S. Capitol that I have 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:02.960 seen so many times in other countries that, to 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.240 use the terms, to use the phrase of our president, 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:11.140 we would call shithole dictatorships, was just 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:16.930 unbelievable. But, you know, what what galls 00:18:16.930 --> 00:18:19.970 me more about that than the than the event itself 00:18:19.970 --> 00:18:22.269 is what's been done afterwards. I mean, this 00:18:22.269 --> 00:18:26.349 latest one, the 1776 fund. I mean, that's just 00:18:26.349 --> 00:18:29.529 that's like rubbing salt in the wounds. And to 00:18:29.529 --> 00:18:34.869 me, if there if there was ever a sign that we 00:18:34.869 --> 00:18:37.710 have we are not just sliding into autocracy, 00:18:37.890 --> 00:18:40.730 but we've already walked through that door. The 00:18:40.730 --> 00:18:42.750 question is how far in the room we've gotten. 00:18:43.369 --> 00:18:49.309 And that's just, it's horrendous to even think 00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:51.609 about, to contemplate that something like that 00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:55.970 could happen in this country. And then the aftermath, 00:18:56.309 --> 00:18:59.009 what's been pardoning of all those people and 00:18:59.009 --> 00:19:01.450 not talking about paying them. I mean, that's 00:19:01.450 --> 00:19:04.250 like, here's your rewards, guys, for doing what 00:19:04.250 --> 00:19:07.829 I wanted you to do. That's just, it's... A reward 00:19:07.829 --> 00:19:13.269 for committing sedition. Yeah. I don't think 00:19:13.269 --> 00:19:16.390 there's been anything that bad since the Civil 00:19:16.390 --> 00:19:19.549 War. I mean, basically, you had people trying 00:19:19.549 --> 00:19:22.190 to overthrow the government. Yeah, and I mean, 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:24.809 at least the Civil War, you could argue that 00:19:24.809 --> 00:19:28.430 we were a young country and we hadn't been a 00:19:28.430 --> 00:19:32.710 united country that long. And at least, you know, 00:19:32.750 --> 00:19:36.609 I think all the Confederates were traders, but 00:19:36.609 --> 00:19:40.349 at least they were traders who went with their 00:19:40.349 --> 00:19:45.519 state. Yeah. as opposed to just a mob that was 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:49.660 attacking because some idiot told them that something 00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:52.559 was stolen from him and they were too dumb to 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.940 really realize that he was using them. You've 00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:01.720 used a phrase talking about the second term of 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.730 the president. Worst nightmare starting on day 00:20:04.730 --> 00:20:08.710 one. Now, that's a strong term, but can you elaborate 00:20:08.710 --> 00:20:11.910 on that? What policies or actions concern you 00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:14.410 the most from a national security or a diplomatic 00:20:14.410 --> 00:20:19.470 standpoint? Oh, God. I mean, you know, it might 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:22.230 be easier if you ask me which policies don't 00:20:22.230 --> 00:20:24.609 bother me because that's a shorter list. I mean, 00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:33.079 just from day one, the very idea of. Not staffing 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.980 our embassies. I mean, right now, the number, 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:40.500 we have over 100 embassies that don't have ambassadors. 00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:48.240 And the ones that do, I don't know, 10 % or less 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:53.480 are career diplomats and the rest are political 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:55.759 appointees. I don't have anything against political 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.599 appointees as such. But I have a hard time looking 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.460 at all the political appointees that this administration 00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:06.319 has sent out to be ambassador, finding one of 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:09.359 them who is even marginally qualified or minimally 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:11.579 qualified to do the job. I mean, there are a 00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:17.420 bunch of political hacks who are doing more damage 00:21:17.420 --> 00:21:24.279 to our national security than the Russians. Actually, 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:26.380 some of them are doing Russia's job for them. 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:31.319 quite nicely. I know what you're saying. So as 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:33.819 a former ambassador, what do you think the world 00:21:33.819 --> 00:21:37.059 is seeing in America right now? How is our credibility 00:21:37.059 --> 00:21:42.700 being affected? Well, I think in many cases and 00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:46.900 in some countries, our credibility is zero. You 00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:51.119 know, in certain parts of the world, the U .S. 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:53.880 has always had to fight something of an uphill 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:58.700 battle. Because during the liberation period 00:21:58.700 --> 00:22:01.819 of the 1950s, when a lot of former colonies were 00:22:01.819 --> 00:22:06.680 gaining their independence, the U .S. was in 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:09.619 the corner of the European colonial powers. And 00:22:09.619 --> 00:22:12.099 a lot of people in these countries, even people 00:22:12.099 --> 00:22:15.700 who weren't born at the time, are aware of this. 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.039 And that's something that they always sort of 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.220 held against us in parts of Asia and in parts 00:22:22.220 --> 00:22:28.380 of Africa. And in parts of Latin America, the 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:31.480 thing that we had going for ourselves before 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:35.480 was that we tried. I mean, we always stood for 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.880 what was right. Sometimes we didn't do it as 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:43.839 well as we probably should. And we were we are 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.400 occasionally somewhat ham handed because we're 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.299 a young country. We're like a teenager who just 00:22:49.299 --> 00:22:51.180 got his driver's license. We don't know all the 00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:53.559 rules of the road. So we drive a little aggressively. 00:22:54.349 --> 00:22:57.269 But we always, I've had people say to me, and 00:22:57.269 --> 00:23:00.890 I have people say to me now, your hearts were 00:23:00.890 --> 00:23:03.230 in the right places if sometimes your head didn't 00:23:03.230 --> 00:23:08.869 catch up. What they're feeling now is that our 00:23:08.869 --> 00:23:12.329 heart and our head have caught up with each other 00:23:12.329 --> 00:23:14.529 and they're both in the wrong place. Just to 00:23:14.529 --> 00:23:18.589 give you an example, yesterday I was in a conversation 00:23:18.589 --> 00:23:22.269 with a friend of mine who lives in Zimbabwe, 00:23:22.369 --> 00:23:25.089 which is having some... real big issues right 00:23:25.089 --> 00:23:27.990 now with a president who's decided he wants to 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:31.529 stay in power longer than the Constitution allows. 00:23:32.049 --> 00:23:35.230 That sounds familiar. Well, this is the funny 00:23:35.230 --> 00:23:38.130 thing. As he and I were discussing this, he sort 00:23:38.130 --> 00:23:40.690 of said, sort of like what you guys have going 00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:43.769 on in the U .S. right now. And that was said 00:23:43.769 --> 00:23:49.529 in a jocular tone, but it's... On a lot of people's 00:23:49.529 --> 00:23:53.130 minds right now, we are no longer able to walk 00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:57.069 into a room and say something that people might 00:23:57.069 --> 00:24:00.029 disagree with, but they will respect for it being 00:24:00.029 --> 00:24:04.690 well -meaning. When they can point to us and 00:24:04.690 --> 00:24:09.250 say, you go home and go to the laundry and clean 00:24:09.250 --> 00:24:12.109 your own skirts before you come and tell me how 00:24:12.109 --> 00:24:15.799 to do mine. This is what's happening. And four 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.359 years of that is not going to be undone even 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.099 by the next two or three elections. We're creating 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:26.460 a world where the U .S. is no longer respected. 00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:30.940 It's no longer trusted. And those are the two 00:24:30.940 --> 00:24:35.720 essential qualities as a diplomat. If you're 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:39.619 not respected and you're not trusted, you can't 00:24:39.619 --> 00:24:43.710 do your job. I mean, it's essential that when 00:24:43.710 --> 00:24:46.009 you walk into a room, whether the people in that 00:24:46.009 --> 00:24:48.630 room or across the table from you agree with 00:24:48.630 --> 00:24:51.670 you or not, that they can trust that what you 00:24:51.670 --> 00:24:55.069 say is the truth as you know it and that your 00:24:55.069 --> 00:24:58.549 intentions are honorable, even if they disagree 00:24:58.549 --> 00:25:01.950 with it. I'm sure as a former ambassador and 00:25:01.950 --> 00:25:06.279 a former military officer, you share my... very 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:09.000 deep concern about how we have alienated so many 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:12.319 of our allies and tried to suck up to so many 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.380 of our adversaries. Can you comment on that? 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:22.059 Well, I mean, on that alienating allies, I'm 00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:24.660 almost at a point of saying we have alienated 00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:27.460 so many of our former allies because I can't 00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:34.099 believe that any of them will ever trust us again 00:25:34.099 --> 00:25:39.140 in my lifetime. And the sucking up to dictators 00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:42.000 and our adversaries. I mean, I saw that in the 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.759 first administration. It was sickening. It's 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.500 just now it just makes me angry when I see the 00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:55.220 way we we literally kowtow to people who I wouldn't 00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:57.700 want to live on the same. I wouldn't want to 00:25:57.700 --> 00:26:00.299 live in the same zip code with them. And they 00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:03.960 are the people that our leadership looked up 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:10.079 to. But if you take that in conjunction with 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:12.279 all the other things you're seeing, the gold 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.539 plating all over everything, the biggest of this 00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:18.200 and the largest of that and the triumphal arches 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.880 and the UFC fighting on the White House lawn, 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:28.660 I mean, it's all part of the same thing. I mean, 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:36.759 we are in the midst of a... or an attempt to 00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:41.359 transition us from a democratic republic to a 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.119 unitary monarchy with an uncrowned king. Well, 00:26:46.180 --> 00:26:48.519 that's a great description. Now, I know that 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:51.559 you and myself and a lot of Americans are banking 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:54.640 on the midterms this year, as well as the 2028 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.099 election. What do you think needs to happen for 00:26:57.099 --> 00:26:59.660 this country to course correct, to try to get 00:26:59.660 --> 00:27:04.200 back to the principles that we cherish? Well, 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:08.680 I mean, you hit it. The two most immediate things 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.759 that need to happen is we need to have a change 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:17.279 in legislative leadership in the midterms, which 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.539 will at least it won't stop what's happening, 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.079 but it can slow it down a little and make things 00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:27.960 a little more complicated. And then in 2028, 00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:31.319 the American electorate needs to come to its 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:35.619 senses. shake itself out of its apathy and get 00:27:35.619 --> 00:27:39.019 out and vote in record numbers to ensure that 00:27:39.019 --> 00:27:41.420 we get a national leadership and an executive 00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:44.579 that is an executive for the entire country. 00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:48.579 And then thirdly, and this is the part that's 00:27:48.579 --> 00:27:51.000 probably going to be hardest, is people are going 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:54.079 to have to realize that even if we get all that, 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.599 even if the midterm turns out to give control 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:02.130 of the Congress to a new party that will pushback, 00:28:02.250 --> 00:28:07.950 and we get a new executive branch in 2028 that 00:28:07.950 --> 00:28:13.049 is dedicated to defending the Constitution and 00:28:13.049 --> 00:28:16.930 moving us back into a direction of being on the 00:28:16.930 --> 00:28:19.910 right side of history is not going to change 00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:23.109 things overnight. I mean, after four years of 00:28:23.109 --> 00:28:30.250 this, I tell my classes that I teach, I do two 00:28:30.829 --> 00:28:33.670 classes in geopolitics for arizona state university 00:28:33.670 --> 00:28:36.250 and i always tell my students the thing you have 00:28:36.250 --> 00:28:41.549 to remember about political movements is that 00:28:41.549 --> 00:28:46.789 what takes a year or two years or three years 00:28:46.789 --> 00:28:51.789 or four years to achieve can take 10 times that 00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:55.890 long to get rid of i mean if you if you think 00:28:55.890 --> 00:29:00.190 about four years of of indoctrination of the 00:29:00.809 --> 00:29:03.569 students in our military academies and new hires 00:29:03.569 --> 00:29:07.529 at all the national security civilian security 00:29:07.529 --> 00:29:13.549 agencies in 2028 you get a new administration 00:29:13.549 --> 00:29:16.609 i mean the idea that the new administration comes 00:29:16.609 --> 00:29:18.650 in and fires all these people and starts off 00:29:18.650 --> 00:29:20.990 with a clean slate is a non -starter i mean that's 00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:23.710 that would just that would just make matters 00:29:23.710 --> 00:29:26.089 worse because first of all it would be us being 00:29:26.089 --> 00:29:30.930 just like him But two, it's practically impossible. 00:29:31.490 --> 00:29:34.130 I mean, you can't you can't start the government 00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:38.029 over with a clean slate every four years. And 00:29:38.029 --> 00:29:41.589 so we don't want to go there. This whole process 00:29:41.589 --> 00:29:47.049 of slowly unindoctrinating people will take years 00:29:47.049 --> 00:29:52.769 or maybe even decades because the rot has it's 00:29:52.769 --> 00:29:55.759 not. just at the top. We're not talking just 00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:58.500 about political appointees. We're talking about 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:02.200 lower level employees. We're talking about career 00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:05.900 employees of all agencies at all levels who will 00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:10.700 have spent four years either in agreement with 00:30:10.700 --> 00:30:15.940 what's being done or pretending in order to protect 00:30:15.940 --> 00:30:20.039 their jobs, which is in some ways just as bad 00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:23.339 because if you don't have the strength of your 00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:25.579 convictions to push back against what's wrong, 00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:29.579 then you're not really a very good candidate 00:30:29.579 --> 00:30:37.279 for Freedom Supporter of the Year. I think the 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:39.920 most essential thing is going to be, starting 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:44.960 in 2028, if we start off with a new cast of characters, 00:30:45.099 --> 00:30:49.539 is that people in this country are going to have 00:30:49.539 --> 00:30:53.019 to recognize that We're not going to turn the 00:30:53.019 --> 00:30:58.079 ship around in a four -year administration. We're 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:02.259 looking at several years, two to three administrations, 00:31:02.259 --> 00:31:06.480 of trying to get things back on track. And the 00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:10.059 fourth thing, and it's also important, is we 00:31:10.059 --> 00:31:13.519 shouldn't be looking at trying to rebuild it 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:16.460 to what it was, but we should be looking to trying 00:31:16.460 --> 00:31:20.180 to build it back better. That's great. Great 00:31:20.180 --> 00:31:23.460 statement, Charlie. I know you've said that most 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:26.779 Americans, regardless of party, are decent and 00:31:26.779 --> 00:31:31.000 freedom loving people. And I wonder if that means 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:33.859 that you're genuinely an optimist or a cautious 00:31:33.859 --> 00:31:37.000 optimist. How would you describe yourself? I'm 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:42.940 a pessimistic optimist. I always wish for the 00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:46.200 better. And I do think that most people in this 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:50.019 country are decent people. But I'm realistic 00:31:50.019 --> 00:31:53.440 enough to know that they're also not what you 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:58.880 call daredevils. Most people are like spectators 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:00.980 at a tennis match. They sit there watching the 00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:03.359 ball go back and forth to see who's going to 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:05.940 be the winner at the end. And then they will 00:32:05.940 --> 00:32:08.579 accommodate to whoever wins. And that's a sorry, 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:12.680 sad and regretful thing to say about the vast 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:16.380 majority of our public. But that's my observation. 00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:20.220 50 years of government work and all the years 00:32:20.220 --> 00:32:22.859 since, that's my observation of most populations, 00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:27.299 is people are decent, but they're not exactly 00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:31.440 daring. Most people just want to live their lives 00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:38.980 and be left alone. So I am pessimistically optimistic 00:32:38.980 --> 00:32:43.700 that we will try to start doing the right thing. 00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:47.119 But I'm realistic enough to know that there's 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:50.480 going to be some real tough times ahead as people, 00:32:50.619 --> 00:32:52.960 you know, if a new administration comes in and 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.539 try to get things done right, they're going to 00:32:54.539 --> 00:32:57.140 run right away into the impatience of people 00:32:57.140 --> 00:32:59.779 upset because things haven't changed already 00:32:59.779 --> 00:33:03.900 overnight. Exactly. And that's going to be a 00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:07.400 big job. Yeah. One thing that I see a lot in 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:10.539 your life is that tension between oath bound 00:33:10.539 --> 00:33:13.759 silence and the obligation to speak out. And 00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.720 you live. basically on the silent side for about 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:19.160 50 years, the military and the foreign service. 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:23.259 And now you're becoming much more vocal. Tell 00:33:23.259 --> 00:33:26.339 me what finally prompted you to speak out now. 00:33:27.250 --> 00:33:30.089 and, I mean, participate in this podcast, for 00:33:30.089 --> 00:33:32.890 example, and the articles that you write for 00:33:32.890 --> 00:33:35.349 The Steady State, which are all so compelling 00:33:35.349 --> 00:33:37.529 and so well written. I read every one of them. 00:33:37.589 --> 00:33:41.390 In fact, I can barely keep up with you. So tell 00:33:41.390 --> 00:33:44.710 me what's motivating you now. What is the legacy 00:33:44.710 --> 00:33:47.269 that Ambassador Charles Ray would like to leave 00:33:47.269 --> 00:33:50.990 for America? Well, I think what motivates me 00:33:50.990 --> 00:33:56.440 is realizing that Silence is a sin. When you 00:33:56.440 --> 00:34:00.140 see something wrong and you do nothing about 00:34:00.140 --> 00:34:03.960 it, you're as guilty as the person who's perpetrating 00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:10.579 the wrong. And when I was one of the silent ones 00:34:10.579 --> 00:34:14.159 in the bureaucracy, I have to be honest with 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:19.179 you, I was not always completely silent. I mean, 00:34:19.219 --> 00:34:23.429 I was in trouble. frequently when I was in the 00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:25.630 Army and during the time in the Foreign Service, 00:34:25.750 --> 00:34:28.010 because when I saw something that I thought was 00:34:28.010 --> 00:34:30.550 wrong, I would speak out. But I spoke out within 00:34:30.550 --> 00:34:34.289 the system. I spoke out, you know, I would go 00:34:34.289 --> 00:34:37.849 to my boss or my commander or people in positions 00:34:37.849 --> 00:34:41.210 of authority and express my opinion. And I had 00:34:41.210 --> 00:34:44.909 a reputation in the State Department when I By 00:34:44.909 --> 00:34:47.369 the time I retired, my corridor reputation was 00:34:47.369 --> 00:34:49.309 here's a guy who'll get the job done, but he 00:34:49.309 --> 00:34:52.590 will drive you crazy in the process because if 00:34:52.590 --> 00:34:55.849 you do something he disagrees with, that idiot 00:34:55.849 --> 00:34:59.710 will come up and tell you. And that's my, because 00:34:59.710 --> 00:35:01.889 I was taught as a young officer in the Army, 00:35:01.969 --> 00:35:04.989 I was taught that your job as a staff officer 00:35:04.989 --> 00:35:08.989 is to go to your commander and express your opinion 00:35:08.989 --> 00:35:11.889 on what your commander is planning to do. Now, 00:35:11.949 --> 00:35:16.010 if he decides. to go ahead and do it, then you 00:35:16.010 --> 00:35:21.409 salute and execute or you retire or resign. And 00:35:21.409 --> 00:35:26.110 that's, I was always from day one prepared to 00:35:26.110 --> 00:35:29.809 submit my resume, especially in the State Department 00:35:29.809 --> 00:35:32.349 since, I mean, I'd already had a 20 -year career 00:35:32.349 --> 00:35:35.110 and the State Department was almost a side gig. 00:35:35.469 --> 00:35:38.690 But I was prepared at any time if it reached 00:35:38.690 --> 00:35:44.119 my red line to walk out the door. As a civilian, 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:48.179 once I was no longer in government, it just dawned 00:35:48.179 --> 00:35:50.340 on me, and it really hit, as I said, in 2016, 00:35:50.539 --> 00:35:53.920 is that those of us who understand how the system 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:58.280 works, who are seeing that system being manipulated, 00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:02.619 distorted, and misused, who sit quietly and say 00:36:02.619 --> 00:36:05.840 nothing, are just as guilty as the ones doing. 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:10.449 And that was all it took for me to just... say 00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:14.090 okay enough's enough i mean i i'm i'm sitting 00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:17.989 at home comfortable i i don't really have to 00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:21.710 face a lot of the trials and tribulations that 00:36:21.710 --> 00:36:23.929 the average american faces i mean i'm having 00:36:23.929 --> 00:36:27.610 problems paying my bills or doing whatever but 00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:33.650 what affects those people out there in the end 00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:38.050 also affects me and if i can do anything to make 00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:40.570 it better for them, and I refuse to do it, then 00:36:40.570 --> 00:36:44.969 I'm as guilty as the person who is actually trying 00:36:44.969 --> 00:36:48.409 to destroy their lives. And that I think is sort 00:36:48.409 --> 00:36:51.650 of a roundabout, convoluted way of saying, I 00:36:51.650 --> 00:36:54.829 think that people who see something wrong and 00:36:54.829 --> 00:36:57.829 are silent about it are as guilty as the people 00:36:57.829 --> 00:37:00.730 who are doing the wrong. I agree with you completely. 00:37:00.809 --> 00:37:03.329 And I think that's beautifully put. One last 00:37:03.329 --> 00:37:08.079 question, Ambassador Wray. I know you're teaching 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:12.880 courses out in Arizona. Do you still encourage 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.980 young people to go into government service? Since 00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:27.099 January 2025, that's been difficult. I find it 00:37:27.099 --> 00:37:31.519 hard to say, yes, go ahead, put your application 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:35.699 in. And a lot of the students in my classes are 00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:37.800 actually adult students who are coming back to 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:44.480 school after other careers. I find it's not as 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:49.260 easy to just unhesitatingly recommend government 00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:51.860 service. What I do say to people is that I think 00:37:51.860 --> 00:37:54.019 government service is an honorable service. I 00:37:54.019 --> 00:37:56.380 mean, people who want to work for their country 00:37:56.380 --> 00:38:01.230 have my vote. I mean, that's an honorable. But 00:38:01.230 --> 00:38:03.630 they have to be realistic about it. I tell young 00:38:03.630 --> 00:38:06.230 people who are especially the young people in 00:38:06.230 --> 00:38:08.730 my classes who are actually thinking about putting 00:38:08.730 --> 00:38:11.750 an application in right away is keep this in 00:38:11.750 --> 00:38:14.809 mind. Depending on the government agency you 00:38:14.809 --> 00:38:17.809 decide to work with, you could be faced with 00:38:17.809 --> 00:38:21.849 a crucial choice. Your choice is either you agree 00:38:21.849 --> 00:38:24.010 with the direction they're going. And if that's 00:38:24.010 --> 00:38:26.989 the case, then more power to you. You know, have 00:38:26.989 --> 00:38:32.719 a good career. Or. pretending to agree just to 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.559 get the job and keep it. And what kind of corrosive 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:39.539 effect does that have on your character doing 00:38:39.539 --> 00:38:44.099 that for who knows how many years? How do you 00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:47.460 look at yourself in the mirror if you know that 00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:50.519 you're going to work every day under false presences? 00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:55.019 And so make that, and I don't say you shouldn't. 00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:57.619 I say to them, this is what I think you could 00:38:57.619 --> 00:39:00.809 be facing. So consider that before you. before 00:39:00.809 --> 00:39:04.329 you make a decision. That's my career advice 00:39:04.329 --> 00:39:09.570 to my students nowadays, is just think about 00:39:09.570 --> 00:39:13.949 what you are going into, go into it with eyes 00:39:13.949 --> 00:39:19.309 wide open, and make the decision that you can 00:39:19.309 --> 00:39:23.130 live with. I think that's beautifully put. I 00:39:23.130 --> 00:39:25.650 also try and encourage young people who are interested 00:39:25.650 --> 00:39:28.090 in careers in the intelligence community or in 00:39:28.090 --> 00:39:30.780 foreign service. And I say there's a lot of chaos 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:33.739 going on, but it's usually at a much higher level 00:39:33.739 --> 00:39:38.019 than you're going into. So this is a thing is 00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:41.239 that nowadays in the previous administration, 00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:44.659 that was the case is that, you know, the chaos 00:39:44.659 --> 00:39:47.320 is that at the top levels and the people at the 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:49.780 bottom were impacted. But I still have a few 00:39:49.780 --> 00:39:53.039 friends who are who are working level people 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:57.539 in the State Department. And I hate to say this, 00:39:57.659 --> 00:40:02.880 but the chaos, the manipulation, the indoctrination 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.940 has filtered down. I was told by someone who 00:40:07.940 --> 00:40:11.119 was a witness to this that at the State Department's 00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:16.719 training facility in Arlington, a political appointee 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:19.760 sits in on classes to make sure that instructors 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:25.889 do not veer from the accepted rhetoric. the administration's 00:40:25.889 --> 00:40:28.769 accepted rhetoric. And I myself, who I was from 00:40:28.769 --> 00:40:32.929 the time I retired in 2012 until last March, 00:40:33.090 --> 00:40:37.530 March 2025, I was a guest lecturer often at the 00:40:37.530 --> 00:40:39.429 Foreign Service Institute for the State Department. 00:40:39.929 --> 00:40:42.969 Last year, I was informed that my presence was 00:40:42.969 --> 00:40:47.210 no longer needed. I would count that as an honor 00:40:47.210 --> 00:40:50.010 if I were you, Ambassador. It goes on my board 00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:53.630 as another merit badge. But my point, though, 00:40:53.630 --> 00:40:57.269 is that The reason I changed what I say to people 00:40:57.269 --> 00:41:03.409 is because the indoctrination, this whole changing 00:41:03.409 --> 00:41:07.130 the character of the workforce has now gone down 00:41:07.130 --> 00:41:09.969 to the very bottom. I mean, I don't know if you're 00:41:09.969 --> 00:41:13.369 aware, but the foreign service exam, the entrance 00:41:13.369 --> 00:41:16.170 exam for foreign service officers has been changed 00:41:16.170 --> 00:41:20.449 and a lot of partisan type requirements have 00:41:20.449 --> 00:41:23.239 been included in the hiring process. That's horrifying. 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:25.780 That's horrifying. It is. It is. It's frightening. 00:41:26.380 --> 00:41:29.079 Well, thank you so much, Ambassador Ray. Today, 00:41:29.179 --> 00:41:30.840 we've had the privilege of having Ambassador 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:34.960 Charles A. Ray on our Steady State Sentinel program. 00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.099 And if you like today's conversation, please 00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:40.400 subscribe to the Steady State Sentinel. Leave 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:42.960 us a five -star review and join us again next 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.039 week. For the Steady State Sentinel, I'm Jim 00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:52.050 Lawler. Still standing watch. Thank you for listening 00:41:52.050 --> 00:41:55.750 to the Steady State Sentinel podcast. Don't miss 00:41:55.750 --> 00:41:58.809 out on more insights and exposes from America's 00:41:58.809 --> 00:42:02.349 premier global security experts. 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