Something is changing in our country, and most
people feel it before they can explain it. Hello,
you're listening to the Steady State Sentinel,
from the Steady State. I'm Jim Lawler, a former
senior CIA operations officer. I've worked some
of the most sensitive counterproliferation and
espionage cases in the agency's history. And
today, I'm privileged to be joined by Ambassador
Charles A. Ray, who brings a rare dual perspective
to national security affairs because he served
20 years, first as a U .S. Army officer, including
two combat tours in Vietnam, before he embarked
on a 30 -year career in the Foreign Service.
He served as U .S. Ambassador to Cambodia. and
to Zimbabwe and was the first U .S. Consul General
to Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam and also served
as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for
POW Missing Personnel Affairs, which oversees
efforts to account for Americans missing in action
from World War II through the most recent conflicts.
He is also a prolific author. And when I say
prolific, I want to emphasize the word prolific
of more than 400 fiction and nonfiction works
spanning leadership, history, and diplomacy,
as well as a hell of a lot of good Westerns.
And he remains an active voice on foreign policy
through the Foreign Policy Research Institute.
I think it's fair to say that Ambassador Wray
is what I would fairly describe as a polymath,
somebody equally talented in a number of very,
very, very different. areas. So, Charlie, if
I can call you that. Please do. Okay. I noticed
you had a genuinely apolitical career. You served
as an ambassador from both a Republican and a
Democratic president. Which presidents were those
and what was that dual experience? How did that
teach you about serving across party lines? Well,
I mean, actually, I can go back. Beyond that,
because my tour as consul general in Ho Chi Minh
City was actually, even though it wasn't a political
appointment, because of the nature of our relationship
with Vietnam at the time, it had a lot of political
attention and a lot of politics attached to it.
But I served as ambassador to Cambodia under
President Bush. President Clinton was the ambassador
when I was consul general in Ho Chi Minh City.
And when I went to Zimbabwe in 2009, Barack Obama
was president. But I like to tell people my army
career started in 1962 under John F. Kennedy.
And I left government service in 2012 under Barack
Obama. So I went from, I like to say. you know,
a Democrat to a Democrat, and there was a whole
lot of Republicans in between, and it really
didn't make a lot of difference in the work I
had to do or the way I did it because, you know,
I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution,
and I took it seriously then, and I still take
it serious. Well, I agree with you. You know,
Charlie, when I was in the CIA for 25 years,
I never once knew or cared what the party affiliation
or political beliefs of any of my colleagues
were. I just didn't think it was any of my business,
nor did any of my colleagues think it was. Did
you share that feeling? Oh, yeah. I mean, I know
looking back now, I know that in the military
and in my early time in the Foreign Service,
I worked closely with people who I am sure were
of a different political persuasion. But in the
trenches, you know, you really don't have time
to worry about how a guy voted. You want to know
how he acts when the chips are down. And that's
really all during my entire career that ever
mattered is do people get the job done? Is this
person doing what they're supposed to do and
the way they're supposed to do it? I never paid
a lot. In fact, I'll be quite honest with you.
I never really became political until 2016. That's
exactly my thing, too. I used to be, if I can
say this, I used to be what is described as a
moderate Republican, and they don't exist anymore.
So, you know, now I kind of call myself an independent,
leaning Democrat most of the time. But it's really,
I agree with you. We served the national security.
We upheld the Constitution. And the particular
political administration really didn't enter
into it. blow your head off. When I registered
to vote for the first time when I turned 18,
actually, I think they dropped the age to 18
when I was still 17. But I actually voted for
the first five elections I voted in as a Republican
because I grew up in East Texas, where when I
was a kid growing up, the guys burning crosses
and wearing hoods were all Democrats. That's
right. And it was only, I would say, probably
around the mid, the late 90s that I saw things
that were happening in my home state of Texas.
And just nationally with the Republican Party
that I started to have some feelings of anxiety.
So I became, like you, I became an independent
first. But then I decided that I really wanted
to be able to participate in the whole process.
In most states, if you're an independent, you
can't vote in primaries. So I registered reluctantly
as a Democrat. I guess I was probably a conservative
Democrat for years until, like I said, 2016,
when the rails came off. And I just realized
that being sort of a quasi -anything doesn't
count anymore. You have to... basically make
a statement of what you are and be firm with
it, or you're really complicit in the things
that go wrong. So speaking of 2016, Charlie,
what specifically set your warning bells off
after Trump's first election? Flashback to 2016.
I think I started to get worried before the election.
I mean, it's just some of the things that he
was saying on the campaign trail bothered me.
Just his that bullying attitude that he took
in debates and the way he basically just ignored
all norms of civilized civil behavior. I just
that bothered me because whether I agreed with
the president or not, whether I voted for that
president or not, all of our even Nixon to a
great degree were presidential. I mean, they
actually. conducted themselves publicly in ways
that reflected the majesty and the gravitas of
the position. And this guy just struck, he sounded
a lot like a sideshow barker at a carnival rather
than someone who's aspiring to the highest office
in the land. And then when he got elected and
started actually acting on this and doing things
that You just don't do, as my grandmother would
say, that just ain't the way you act in good
company. That was it. I mean, when he actually
started delivering on some of the outrageous
things or trying to deliver on the outrageous
things he said on the campaign trail, I knew
we were in trouble. So I've heard you describe
some of the... President Trump's first term cabinet
members as guardrails. Which officials do you
have in mind when you used that description?
And do you think that that kind of guardrail
exists in the second term? Well, guardrails,
I would say, honestly, while I totally disagree
with his politics, Mike Pence, his vice president,
was a guardrail. I mean, here was a guy, I don't
agree with his politics, but he took his oath
seriously. And when he was asked to do something
that was blatantly illegal, he put his foot down
and said no. Each of his secretaries of defense,
I felt, were people who would go in directions
I would disagree with. But when it reached that
line in the sand, they put their feet down. Even
his attorneys general were people who... You
know, I mean, they were a little on the bent
side in terms of where I would like to see that
position go, but they drew the line at just outright,
outrageous illegal behavior. And I think he learned
his lesson. I mean, it's obvious. I saw this
when the first appointment list or the first
list of people he was planning to appoint came
out this time. I saw that he was making sure
that that wasn't going to be a problem in his
second administration. He basically has appointed
people who do what he says, the way he says do
it, regardless of how ridiculous it makes them
look, and regardless of how obviously blatantly
illegal, immoral, and just plain wrong it is.
So he's basically stocked his cabinet with yes
people, sycophants. Yeah, somebody explained
to him what a kakistocrat was, and he made darn
sure that that's all he interviewed for jobs.
I mean, he has a complete confederacy of dunces
this time. That's a good term, confederacy of
dunces, yeah. I understand you have heard some
overtly partisan statements from some active
duty military during your consulting work. That's
rather provocative, and it's an important observation.
Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, I mean, I'll
just give you one example. After I retired, I
did consulting for the Joint Chiefs of Staff
and for the Department of the Army on training
extensively. And on one of the training contracts,
I was the subject matter expert for pre -deployment
training for units that were going overseas in
non -Title X assignments where they would have
to work with embassies. My job was as a subject
matter expert to play the role of the ambassador
or some other senior civilian official in scenarios
to try and school them on the proper way to conduct
themselves as military to be able to get their
job done, but at the same time to recognize that
they were under the ultimate authority of a civilian
who was not part of the dod chain of command
there was this one colonel he's retired now and
i don't even remember his name but he was and
this guy was like this guy was like a a b movie
villain from central casting uh tobacco chew
i mean he would do briefings he'd hold have a
little tin can in his hand briefings he's chewed
tobacco and he would literally pause and briefings
to spit tobacco juice into a tin can in his hand
and when i first met him you know i try not to
stereotype people or at least not to act on it
i i just sort of looked at this guy and thought
oh i have a feeling i've known people like him
when i was in uniform this guy is going to be
trouble he turned out to be trouble and it it
culminated He would, from the podium briefing,
make overtly political partisan statements. And
he would knock. I mean, he just had a—he didn't
like Obama. He didn't like Biden. He hated Hillary
Clinton. And he let that be known in briefings
in front of a room full of military officers
and civilians, including all of us contractors.
And one day— When I had just finished an exercise
and with my team of other contractors, we were
doing a casual debrief outside of the venue.
And I made, I don't remember what I said, but
he happened to be walking by. It apparently set
him off and he came in and just took over the
briefing and started lambasting the current.
And at that time, it was the Obama administration
just basically venting, and I had had enough.
I mean, as a contractor, I had no control over
anything. So I basically shut him down. I said,
you know, you're talking nonsense, and you really
should stop. This is not the way you as a U .S.
Army colonel should be conducting yourself in
the presence of enlisted people and other folks.
He goes red in the face. And I mean, I didn't
raise my voice or use profanity. I just basically
said it in the same tone as I'm talking now.
He got red faced and stormed off. I was informed
by the head of the company that I had provided
the contractors after that, that I wouldn't be
deployed there anymore. I bet you that didn't
bother you. Not really. I mean, I was only doing
it because it was interesting work and I enjoyed
it. It wasn't like I. was being economically
or financially deprived but it did just the idea
that this colonel who was overtly partisan and
and breaking every rule in the book i mean when
i was when i was in the military even then i'm
sure there were people like that would never
dare get up in in a briefing in front of a room
full of military people and talk like that because
they would be on the carpet This guy didn't seem
to think it was any problem at all. Interesting
story on that. He retired shortly after that
and came to work for the same company that I
was working for, and he lasted one deployment
before they fired him. Yeah, I'm not surprised.
I imagine you were horrified a few months ago
when our Secretary of Defense, I won't call him
a Secretary of War, I refuse to use that term.
You mean that former platoon leader? Yeah, called
back every flag rank officer for that mass meeting
at the Pentagon. That must have horrified you.
I just have to tell you, honestly, I found it
hard to believe that they would actually do that.
And then when I saw the news clips of it, it
was depressing. And, of course, you see the outcome
of that. I mean, literally people in the military,
I'm not all that surprised at what they have
done to the State Department. I mean, the State
Department has always been the whipping boy.
And when you were in the agency, you worked with
State. You know, State Department people are
conflict avoidance types. Right. But when I saw
the way they were reassigning and firing and
forcing into retirement senior military people,
it worried me. And when they started the Caribbean
boat strikes and some of the things that I see
happening, it really, it's depressing. I mean,
as a former military person, I find it just absolutely
gut -wrenching that you have people. who are
following these orders, and if the news is correct
that I'm seeing, who are actually some of them
going in front of Congress and trying to defend
this. I just don't, I have no words to describe
it that would be polite words. The way I feel
when I see things like that, I cannot express
in polite company. I understand. So turning to
another sensitive subject, I believe you witnessed
or watched January 6th live. What was that experience?
What was that experience like for someone like
yourself who spent decades representing American
democracy abroad? You know, I'm sort of a weirdo
in a way. I don't watch war movies anymore because...
Sometimes I actually am brought to tears when
I watch a really well -made war movie. I don't
cry on rom -coms and all of these other soapy,
soppy TV offerings. I found myself in tears watching
that. I mean, I couldn't tear myself away from
the screen, but I just, I don't. Even to this
day, I have a hard time finding the words to
describe how that felt. Watching something happen
in this country at the U .S. Capitol that I have
seen so many times in other countries that, to
use the terms, to use the phrase of our president,
we would call shithole dictatorships, was just
unbelievable. But, you know, what what galls
me more about that than the than the event itself
is what's been done afterwards. I mean, this
latest one, the 1776 fund. I mean, that's just
that's like rubbing salt in the wounds. And to
me, if there if there was ever a sign that we
have we are not just sliding into autocracy,
but we've already walked through that door. The
question is how far in the room we've gotten.
And that's just, it's horrendous to even think
about, to contemplate that something like that
could happen in this country. And then the aftermath,
what's been pardoning of all those people and
not talking about paying them. I mean, that's
like, here's your rewards, guys, for doing what
I wanted you to do. That's just, it's... A reward
for committing sedition. Yeah. I don't think
there's been anything that bad since the Civil
War. I mean, basically, you had people trying
to overthrow the government. Yeah, and I mean,
at least the Civil War, you could argue that
we were a young country and we hadn't been a
united country that long. And at least, you know,
I think all the Confederates were traders, but
at least they were traders who went with their
state. Yeah. as opposed to just a mob that was
attacking because some idiot told them that something
was stolen from him and they were too dumb to
really realize that he was using them. You've
used a phrase talking about the second term of
the president. Worst nightmare starting on day
one. Now, that's a strong term, but can you elaborate
on that? What policies or actions concern you
the most from a national security or a diplomatic
standpoint? Oh, God. I mean, you know, it might
be easier if you ask me which policies don't
bother me because that's a shorter list. I mean,
just from day one, the very idea of. Not staffing
our embassies. I mean, right now, the number,
we have over 100 embassies that don't have ambassadors.
And the ones that do, I don't know, 10 % or less
are career diplomats and the rest are political
appointees. I don't have anything against political
appointees as such. But I have a hard time looking
at all the political appointees that this administration
has sent out to be ambassador, finding one of
them who is even marginally qualified or minimally
qualified to do the job. I mean, there are a
bunch of political hacks who are doing more damage
to our national security than the Russians. Actually,
some of them are doing Russia's job for them.
quite nicely. I know what you're saying. So as
a former ambassador, what do you think the world
is seeing in America right now? How is our credibility
being affected? Well, I think in many cases and
in some countries, our credibility is zero. You
know, in certain parts of the world, the U .S.
has always had to fight something of an uphill
battle. Because during the liberation period
of the 1950s, when a lot of former colonies were
gaining their independence, the U .S. was in
the corner of the European colonial powers. And
a lot of people in these countries, even people
who weren't born at the time, are aware of this.
And that's something that they always sort of
held against us in parts of Asia and in parts
of Africa. And in parts of Latin America, the
thing that we had going for ourselves before
was that we tried. I mean, we always stood for
what was right. Sometimes we didn't do it as
well as we probably should. And we were we are
occasionally somewhat ham handed because we're
a young country. We're like a teenager who just
got his driver's license. We don't know all the
rules of the road. So we drive a little aggressively.
But we always, I've had people say to me, and
I have people say to me now, your hearts were
in the right places if sometimes your head didn't
catch up. What they're feeling now is that our
heart and our head have caught up with each other
and they're both in the wrong place. Just to
give you an example, yesterday I was in a conversation
with a friend of mine who lives in Zimbabwe,
which is having some... real big issues right
now with a president who's decided he wants to
stay in power longer than the Constitution allows.
That sounds familiar. Well, this is the funny
thing. As he and I were discussing this, he sort
of said, sort of like what you guys have going
on in the U .S. right now. And that was said
in a jocular tone, but it's... On a lot of people's
minds right now, we are no longer able to walk
into a room and say something that people might
disagree with, but they will respect for it being
well -meaning. When they can point to us and
say, you go home and go to the laundry and clean
your own skirts before you come and tell me how
to do mine. This is what's happening. And four
years of that is not going to be undone even
by the next two or three elections. We're creating
a world where the U .S. is no longer respected.
It's no longer trusted. And those are the two
essential qualities as a diplomat. If you're
not respected and you're not trusted, you can't
do your job. I mean, it's essential that when
you walk into a room, whether the people in that
room or across the table from you agree with
you or not, that they can trust that what you
say is the truth as you know it and that your
intentions are honorable, even if they disagree
with it. I'm sure as a former ambassador and
a former military officer, you share my... very
deep concern about how we have alienated so many
of our allies and tried to suck up to so many
of our adversaries. Can you comment on that?
Well, I mean, on that alienating allies, I'm
almost at a point of saying we have alienated
so many of our former allies because I can't
believe that any of them will ever trust us again
in my lifetime. And the sucking up to dictators
and our adversaries. I mean, I saw that in the
first administration. It was sickening. It's
just now it just makes me angry when I see the
way we we literally kowtow to people who I wouldn't
want to live on the same. I wouldn't want to
live in the same zip code with them. And they
are the people that our leadership looked up
to. But if you take that in conjunction with
all the other things you're seeing, the gold
plating all over everything, the biggest of this
and the largest of that and the triumphal arches
and the UFC fighting on the White House lawn,
I mean, it's all part of the same thing. I mean,
we are in the midst of a... or an attempt to
transition us from a democratic republic to a
unitary monarchy with an uncrowned king. Well,
that's a great description. Now, I know that
you and myself and a lot of Americans are banking
on the midterms this year, as well as the 2028
election. What do you think needs to happen for
this country to course correct, to try to get
back to the principles that we cherish? Well,
I mean, you hit it. The two most immediate things
that need to happen is we need to have a change
in legislative leadership in the midterms, which
will at least it won't stop what's happening,
but it can slow it down a little and make things
a little more complicated. And then in 2028,
the American electorate needs to come to its
senses. shake itself out of its apathy and get
out and vote in record numbers to ensure that
we get a national leadership and an executive
that is an executive for the entire country.
And then thirdly, and this is the part that's
probably going to be hardest, is people are going
to have to realize that even if we get all that,
even if the midterm turns out to give control
of the Congress to a new party that will pushback,
and we get a new executive branch in 2028 that
is dedicated to defending the Constitution and
moving us back into a direction of being on the
right side of history is not going to change
things overnight. I mean, after four years of
this, I tell my classes that I teach, I do two
classes in geopolitics for arizona state university
and i always tell my students the thing you have
to remember about political movements is that
what takes a year or two years or three years
or four years to achieve can take 10 times that
long to get rid of i mean if you if you think
about four years of of indoctrination of the
students in our military academies and new hires
at all the national security civilian security
agencies in 2028 you get a new administration
i mean the idea that the new administration comes
in and fires all these people and starts off
with a clean slate is a non -starter i mean that's
that would just that would just make matters
worse because first of all it would be us being
just like him But two, it's practically impossible.
I mean, you can't you can't start the government
over with a clean slate every four years. And
so we don't want to go there. This whole process
of slowly unindoctrinating people will take years
or maybe even decades because the rot has it's
not. just at the top. We're not talking just
about political appointees. We're talking about
lower level employees. We're talking about career
employees of all agencies at all levels who will
have spent four years either in agreement with
what's being done or pretending in order to protect
their jobs, which is in some ways just as bad
because if you don't have the strength of your
convictions to push back against what's wrong,
then you're not really a very good candidate
for Freedom Supporter of the Year. I think the
most essential thing is going to be, starting
in 2028, if we start off with a new cast of characters,
is that people in this country are going to have
to recognize that We're not going to turn the
ship around in a four -year administration. We're
looking at several years, two to three administrations,
of trying to get things back on track. And the
fourth thing, and it's also important, is we
shouldn't be looking at trying to rebuild it
to what it was, but we should be looking to trying
to build it back better. That's great. Great
statement, Charlie. I know you've said that most
Americans, regardless of party, are decent and
freedom loving people. And I wonder if that means
that you're genuinely an optimist or a cautious
optimist. How would you describe yourself? I'm
a pessimistic optimist. I always wish for the
better. And I do think that most people in this
country are decent people. But I'm realistic
enough to know that they're also not what you
call daredevils. Most people are like spectators
at a tennis match. They sit there watching the
ball go back and forth to see who's going to
be the winner at the end. And then they will
accommodate to whoever wins. And that's a sorry,
sad and regretful thing to say about the vast
majority of our public. But that's my observation.
50 years of government work and all the years
since, that's my observation of most populations,
is people are decent, but they're not exactly
daring. Most people just want to live their lives
and be left alone. So I am pessimistically optimistic
that we will try to start doing the right thing.
But I'm realistic enough to know that there's
going to be some real tough times ahead as people,
you know, if a new administration comes in and
try to get things done right, they're going to
run right away into the impatience of people
upset because things haven't changed already
overnight. Exactly. And that's going to be a
big job. Yeah. One thing that I see a lot in
your life is that tension between oath bound
silence and the obligation to speak out. And
you live. basically on the silent side for about
50 years, the military and the foreign service.
And now you're becoming much more vocal. Tell
me what finally prompted you to speak out now.
and, I mean, participate in this podcast, for
example, and the articles that you write for
The Steady State, which are all so compelling
and so well written. I read every one of them.
In fact, I can barely keep up with you. So tell
me what's motivating you now. What is the legacy
that Ambassador Charles Ray would like to leave
for America? Well, I think what motivates me
is realizing that Silence is a sin. When you
see something wrong and you do nothing about
it, you're as guilty as the person who's perpetrating
the wrong. And when I was one of the silent ones
in the bureaucracy, I have to be honest with
you, I was not always completely silent. I mean,
I was in trouble. frequently when I was in the
Army and during the time in the Foreign Service,
because when I saw something that I thought was
wrong, I would speak out. But I spoke out within
the system. I spoke out, you know, I would go
to my boss or my commander or people in positions
of authority and express my opinion. And I had
a reputation in the State Department when I By
the time I retired, my corridor reputation was
here's a guy who'll get the job done, but he
will drive you crazy in the process because if
you do something he disagrees with, that idiot
will come up and tell you. And that's my, because
I was taught as a young officer in the Army,
I was taught that your job as a staff officer
is to go to your commander and express your opinion
on what your commander is planning to do. Now,
if he decides. to go ahead and do it, then you
salute and execute or you retire or resign. And
that's, I was always from day one prepared to
submit my resume, especially in the State Department
since, I mean, I'd already had a 20 -year career
and the State Department was almost a side gig.
But I was prepared at any time if it reached
my red line to walk out the door. As a civilian,
once I was no longer in government, it just dawned
on me, and it really hit, as I said, in 2016,
is that those of us who understand how the system
works, who are seeing that system being manipulated,
distorted, and misused, who sit quietly and say
nothing, are just as guilty as the ones doing.
And that was all it took for me to just... say
okay enough's enough i mean i i'm i'm sitting
at home comfortable i i don't really have to
face a lot of the trials and tribulations that
the average american faces i mean i'm having
problems paying my bills or doing whatever but
what affects those people out there in the end
also affects me and if i can do anything to make
it better for them, and I refuse to do it, then
I'm as guilty as the person who is actually trying
to destroy their lives. And that I think is sort
of a roundabout, convoluted way of saying, I
think that people who see something wrong and
are silent about it are as guilty as the people
who are doing the wrong. I agree with you completely.
And I think that's beautifully put. One last
question, Ambassador Wray. I know you're teaching
courses out in Arizona. Do you still encourage
young people to go into government service? Since
January 2025, that's been difficult. I find it
hard to say, yes, go ahead, put your application
in. And a lot of the students in my classes are
actually adult students who are coming back to
school after other careers. I find it's not as
easy to just unhesitatingly recommend government
service. What I do say to people is that I think
government service is an honorable service. I
mean, people who want to work for their country
have my vote. I mean, that's an honorable. But
they have to be realistic about it. I tell young
people who are especially the young people in
my classes who are actually thinking about putting
an application in right away is keep this in
mind. Depending on the government agency you
decide to work with, you could be faced with
a crucial choice. Your choice is either you agree
with the direction they're going. And if that's
the case, then more power to you. You know, have
a good career. Or. pretending to agree just to
get the job and keep it. And what kind of corrosive
effect does that have on your character doing
that for who knows how many years? How do you
look at yourself in the mirror if you know that
you're going to work every day under false presences?
And so make that, and I don't say you shouldn't.
I say to them, this is what I think you could
be facing. So consider that before you. before
you make a decision. That's my career advice
to my students nowadays, is just think about
what you are going into, go into it with eyes
wide open, and make the decision that you can
live with. I think that's beautifully put. I
also try and encourage young people who are interested
in careers in the intelligence community or in
foreign service. And I say there's a lot of chaos
going on, but it's usually at a much higher level
than you're going into. So this is a thing is
that nowadays in the previous administration,
that was the case is that, you know, the chaos
is that at the top levels and the people at the
bottom were impacted. But I still have a few
friends who are who are working level people
in the State Department. And I hate to say this,
but the chaos, the manipulation, the indoctrination
has filtered down. I was told by someone who
was a witness to this that at the State Department's
training facility in Arlington, a political appointee
sits in on classes to make sure that instructors
do not veer from the accepted rhetoric. the administration's
accepted rhetoric. And I myself, who I was from
the time I retired in 2012 until last March,
March 2025, I was a guest lecturer often at the
Foreign Service Institute for the State Department.
Last year, I was informed that my presence was
no longer needed. I would count that as an honor
if I were you, Ambassador. It goes on my board
as another merit badge. But my point, though,
is that The reason I changed what I say to people
is because the indoctrination, this whole changing
the character of the workforce has now gone down
to the very bottom. I mean, I don't know if you're
aware, but the foreign service exam, the entrance
exam for foreign service officers has been changed
and a lot of partisan type requirements have
been included in the hiring process. That's horrifying.
That's horrifying. It is. It is. It's frightening.
Well, thank you so much, Ambassador Ray. Today,
we've had the privilege of having Ambassador
Charles A. Ray on our Steady State Sentinel program.
And if you like today's conversation, please
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week. For the Steady State Sentinel, I'm Jim
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